Sitting of 1 August 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Nottingham Corporation Bill,
City and South London Railway Bill,
Torquay Corporation Bill,
London Electric Railway Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to the Order of the House of 20th July, and agreed to.
Robert Gordon's Colleges and Aberdeen Endowments Trust Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Considered; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

EAST INDIA (BUDGET).
Address for Return of the Budget of the Governor-General of India in Council for 1923–24.—[Earl Winterton.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    CONTRIBUTIONS.
    Mr. WISEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if all the members of the League of Nations have paid their assessment; and, if not, will he state which of the members have not paid?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I am informed that during the first five months of this year about 20 per cent. of the contributions due from members of the League was received in Geneva. For 1922, 76½ per cent. of the contributions has so far been collected; for 1921, 88 per cent.; and for 1920, 95
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    per cent. I am not in a position to answer completely the last part of the question, but the hon. Member will find details of the contributions paid and collectable up to August, 1922, in the Records of the Third Assembly which have been published (Fourth Committee, page 142, etc.).
    Mr. HARRIS: Who pays the balance of expenditure? Have we to foot the bill, or all the other nations combined?
    Mr. McNEILL: I must ask for notice of that question.
    Sir W. DAVISON: What percentage of the amount is paid by Great Britain?
    Mr. McNEILL: I think the total amount of our assessment is paid.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Are we not about the only country that pays when the money is due?
    Mr. McNEILL: That is what I should expect us to be.

    BRITISH REPRESENTATIVES.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether he can give the names of the British representatives for the Assembly of the League of Nations; whether it is intended to confine representation of Great Britain to members of the one political party supporting the present Government; whether a woman delegate will be included in the British representation; and whether he can say who will represent the Dominion of South Africa this year?
    Captain BENNasked the Prime Minister whether the British delegates to the League of Nations Assembly have yet been nominated; and whether it has been decided to include a woman among them?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The delegates representing the British Government at the forthcoming meeting of the Assembly of the League of Nations will be

    My Noble Friend, the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Robert Cecil),

    My Right Hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Education (Mr. Edward Wood),

    The Right Hon. Sir James Rennell Rodd.

    The following will also attend the Assembly as substitute delegates:

    The Right Hon. Sir Willoughby Dickinson.

    Sir H. Llewelyn Smith.

    Dame Edith Lyttelton.

    General the Right Hon. J. C. Smuts will, if possible, represent South Africa.

    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my question?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Sir Willoughby Dickinson is a Liberal.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I was not asking on behalf of any party, and the same condition will apply to Conservatives when they are in opposition next year.

  RUSSIA.

    MURMANSK COAST (FISHING RIGHTS).
    Mr. ENTWISTLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received satisfactory assurances from the Russian Government that British fishing vessels will not in future be molested while fishing off the Murmansk coast outside the three-miles limit?
    Mr. McNEILL: A communication was made to His Majesty's Government by the Russian Trade Delegation on the 22nd June last to the effect that the local authorities had been advised to abstain from interfering with British fishing vessels outside the three-mile limit. Whether this assurance is satisfactory or not will depend on how it is fulfilled.

    TRADING INTERESTS (MR. J. DODGE).
    Captain MARGESSONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps His Majesty's Government have taken to protect Mr. John Dodge's trading interests in Russia, which were established after the Anglo-Russian trade agreement was signed; and if the Government has done anything to clear up the misunderstanding which led to Mr. Dodge's arrest last August and his expulsion from Russia together with his manager, Mr. James Jackson?
    Mr. McNEILL: His Majesty's Government are still in communication with the British Agent at Moscow with a view to obtaining satisfaction for Mr. Dodge's
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    treatment at the hands of the Soviet authorities.

    BRITISH GRAVES, TAGANROG.
    Captain ERSKINE-BOLSTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Soviet Government has demanded a payment of 150,000,000 roubles for each grave in the private British burial ground at Taganrog and that, failing immediate payment, the graves and monuments will be destroyed; and whether he will protest against this threatened desecration of British graves?
    Mr. McNEILL: His Majesty's Government have received no information as regards either of the statements made by the hon. and gallant Member in the first part of his question. The second part, therefore, does not arise. If, however, the hon. and gallant Member will provide me with further particulars, I will cause inquiries to be made.

    M. RAKOVSKY.
    Captain ERSKINE-BOLSTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that M. Rakovsky, recently appointed head of the Anglo-Russian Trade Delegation in London, is the same M. Rakovsky who was expelled from France during the War for his propaganda activities against the Allies and was instrumental in the massacre of the whites in the Ukraine; and can he explain why, under these circumstances, he was admitted by the Government to the position he now holds in accordance with the provisions of the trade agreement?
    Mr. McNEILL: Before the appointment of M. Rakovsky as head of the Russian trade delegation in London was accepted by His Majesty's Government, inquiries were made, which did not bring to light any such facts as are alleged in the question. If, on further inquiry—especially in view of statements which have recently been made in the Press—it should appear that M. Rakovsky is unsuitable for the appointment, the question will have to be reconsidered.
    Captain ERSKINE-BOLST: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me if this individual or anyone at Soviet House has been concerned in the recent strikes in London?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have no information on that point.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Have the Government a guarantee that M. Rakovsky will not carry on any campaign of propaganda against us?
    Mr. McNEILL: The only thing in the nature of a guarantee is the arrangement contained in the Trade Agreement. Whether or not that will be effective, I cannot say.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a point of Order. Is it in accordance with the custom of this House for attacks to be made on the accredited representative of another Government?
    Mr. LANSBURY: They would not allow us to put that question down.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I did cut out of this question parts that I thought objectionable. The hon. Member has put some of it in his supplementary question, and that ought not to be done.
    Captain BENN: Will you give some ruling, Mr. Speaker, which will guide us? Do we understand that the diplomatic representatives of foreign countries are to be subjected to questions of this kind in this House? Surely a rule applying to one country should apply to all countries?
    Mr. LANSBURY: May I put down a question challenging the French Minister's right of propaganda in this country? It is perfectly monstrous.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have refused several questions on this matter, where hon. Members propose to make allegations, for which no prima facie evidence is produced. The only questions which are permissible are as to whether the appointment is in accordance with the Trade Agreement.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Was not this gentleman at Geneva very well known, and do not our Foreign Office know all about him; and if he has been accepted, why does not the hon. Gentleman repudiate these charges made against him?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: The charges are true.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a pamphlet issued by this gentleman in the last few days gravely attacking Great Britain?
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is a later question on that matter.
    Mr. McNEILL: With reference to the point of Order. Of course I should have applied to you if this gentleman occupied a diplomatic post, but he does not, and I do not think there was any ground for applying to you, Sir, for permission.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: There have been cases tried in the Courts in which the plea has been that of diplomatic immunity of the predecessor of this gentleman, and it was accepted by His Majesty's Judges. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] On these grounds, should not the same courtesy be extended by the Foreign Office to this gentleman?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think the House must trust me to do my best in the matter.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir M. ARCHER-SHEE(by Private Notice) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the speech of M. Rakovsky, quoted in the official organ of the Ukranian Communist party, in which he predicts the collapse of the British Empire and the ruin of England, and in which he stated that the principal object of his appointment as chief of the trade delegation in London was to enable him to be on the spot so as to be able to intervene in the affairs of this country, and whether, in view of this speech, His Majesty's Government will request the Soviet Government to recall M. Rakovsky at once?
    Mr. McNEILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply just given to the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney.
    Sir M. ARCHER-SHEE: Can my hon. Friend give any indication that the Government are not ready to harbour this vicious anti-British viper?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order! After that, I must see any questions in writing.

  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    LIQUOR REGULATIONS.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in connection with the refusal of the Government of the United States to allow liquor to remain under seal in British ships in American ports, the attention of that Government has been called to a dispatch forwarded by the American Government some years ago to the Spanish Government which, while admitting the legal right of every nation to prescribe the conditions on which foreign vessels should be admitted to their ports, laid down that these conditions must not conflict with the well-known and long-established usages regulating commercial intercourse between civilised nations which could not be violated without giving just cause of complaint to the nations whose interests would be affected by their violation; and what reply has been returned by the Government of the United States?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The advisability of drawing the attention of the United States Government to the Note referred to is receiving consideration. According to Moore's "Digest of International Law," p. 269, Vol. II, the Note was communicated to the Spanish Government by the United States Minister in Madrid in 1852, and was substantially in the terms cited by the hon. Member.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Having regard to the fact that, not only was a despatch of the nature indicated sent by the United States to the Spanish Government, but that it is actually now quoted in a leading manual on international law, will the hon. Gentleman take an early opportunity of drawing the attention of the United States Government to their own contention on this matter?
    Mr. McNEILL: The Note referred to by my hon. Friend seems certainly to afford a precedent which might be followed, but I am unable to say at present whether it would be considered desirable to draw special attention to it.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: What is being done with the liquor taken from these ships? Is it destroyed, or is it being held until the question is settled?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have not myself taken sufficient interest in the fate of the liquor to ascertain that.
    Dr. CHAPPLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a circular calling for subscriptions to a fund for the purposes of shipping 5,000 cases of whisky to the United States and of challenging the authority of a friendly Power in its attempt to enforce its own laws; and whether he proposes to take any steps in order to frustrate activities that may endanger friendly relations?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have seen the circular referred to, which the hon. Member was good enough to hand to me. As the hon. Member is aware, the whole subject to which this circular belongs is engaging the attention of His Majesty's Government.
    Dr. CHAPPLE: Will the hon. Gentleman say what is being done to frustrate the activities of these people who are endeavouring to set at defiance the laws of friendly nations, and will he say whether it is not more important to preserve friendly relations with America than that these people should make money out of exploiting this traffic?
    Mr. McNEILL: Certainly. The answer to the last part of the hon. Member's, question is in the affirmative, but I am not in a position at present to say what steps will be taken. The question is one which it is very difficult to decide.
    Dr. CHAPPLE: Has any effort been made to enter into negotiations with the representatives of the American Government and to receive their suggestions, in order to see how far, within the four corners of international law, we can be of assistance to them?
    Mr. McNEILL: I cannot say more than-that the whole matter is receiving consideration. There are a great many difficulties. I cannot put a whole kitchen garden into a nutshell.

    ELLIS ISLAND.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received official information from the United States Government that they will in future instruct their consular agents that everyone to whom they grant a visa will be guaranteed admission to the

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    United States, and thus avoid internment in Ellis Island?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer is in the negative.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is it not only common sense to suggest that the American consular agents should prevent emigration on this side rather than allow unfortunate emigrants to cross the Atlantic and be interned on Ellis Island?
    Mr. McNEILL: My answer was not concerned with the merits of the proposal. It was in the negative to the question on the Paper, as to whether we have received official information.

  CHINA.

    RAILWAY POLICE FORCE.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have yet been taken in China towards starting a railway gendarmerie; and whether any agreement has yet been reached with the other Powers concerned towards taking concerted action for the protection of foreigners in China during the existing state of chaos?
    Mr. McNEILL: The Governments concerned have agreed in principle to the proposal for the establishment of a railway police force under foreign officers, and the scheme is now being elaborated in Peking, in order that its adoption may be pressed on the Chinese Government.

    POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL ORDER.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the conference on Customs surtax and the abolition of the likin to be held three months after the ratification of the Washington Treaty by all the Powers concerned could be enlarged so as to consider and frame general measures for the recovery of China, or whether it is proposed instead to summon a special conference of the Powers signatory to the Washington Conference to consider measures for re-establishing political and financial order in China?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer is in the negative, both the suggestions contained in the question having been rejected, after full and careful consideration.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is it not of vital importance that some decision should be reached by the signatory Powers in order to prevent China from descending further into the slough of despond in which she is at present?
    Mr. McNEILL: Yes, I think it is.

    WEST RIVER (GUNBOAT PATROL).
    Mr. GERSHOM STEWARTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a British steamer flying the British flag has been recently pirated at Samshui, on the West River, in the neighbourhood of Canton; whether any steps as to obtaining reparations have been taken; and whether there is any gunboat patrol on the West River at the present time?
    Mr. McNEILL: No official report of the incident has yet been received. There is a patrol of four British gunboats on the West River.
    Mr. STEWART: Could the hon. Gentleman not use his influence with the Government to see that naval patrols are increased as far as possible in the areas of the Treaty ports?
    Mr. McNEILL: I do not think it is necessary for me to use any influence, if I have any, in that direction.

    NAVAL ARMAMENTS (WASHINGTON TREATIES).
    Commander BELLAIRSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French Parliament, before it adjourned, ratified the part of the Treaty embodying the Root Resolutions agreed to at Washington for the purpose of regulating the use of submarines against merchant ships?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer is in the negative. The agreement referred to constitutes a separate Treaty.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Will some representation be addressed to the French Government in view of the enormous importance to our commerce of these Root Resolutions?
    Mr. McNEILL: No doubt representations could be made, but I do not know whether the Government would think it desirable to do so.
    Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the delegates at the Washington Conference were aware of the extent of the Japanese light cruiser programme as regards the number, size, speed, and armament of these ships?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Amery): Delegates at the Washington Conference were aware of the extent of the Japanese light cruiser programme at that time. The programme has been slightly modified since the date of the Washington Conference.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    PENSIONS (WIDOWS AND DEPENDANTS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the favourable decision promulgated in Admiralty Fleet Order No. 1703, in answer to request No. 12 of the 1922 Welfare Committee, he will take steps to inaugurate or establish a pension scheme for widows and dependants of naval ratings on a contributory basis; and whether this House will have an opportunity of discussing any proposed scheme with a view to considering the desirability of granting some assistance thereto from the public funds?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Major Boyd-Carpenter): With regard to the first part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply given on the 18th July to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle). With regard to the second part of the question, it would be premature to give any undertaking until a scheme has actually been prepared.

    MURMANSK COAST (PROTECTION or FISHERMEN).
    Mr. ENTWISTLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether steps are being taken to provide a suitable and permanent vessel for fishery protection purposes; and whether he has made, arrangements for the presence in the waters off the Murmansk coast of an Admiralty vessel when the fishing season commences in September?
    Mr. AMERY: In view of the assurances received from the Russian Government that British fishing vessels will not in future be molested while fishing off the Murmansk coast outside the three-miles limit, it is not considered that the expenditure of money on the provision of a special type of vessel for fishery protection purposes in North Russian waters can properly be recommended at the present moment.
    Mr. ENTWISTLE: Is it not a fact that a vessel of this type has been shown to be useful for fishery protection purposes, apart from the question of Russia? As we cannot tell, until time has shown, whether the assurances will be fulfilled, ought not this vessel to be proceeded with in accordance with the previous promise?
    Mr. AMERY: We have fishery protection vessels quite useful for this purpose, but if we wished to patrol the Murmansk coast during the later months, we should be compelled to go to great expense to provide specially equipped vessels. In view of the present circumstances, we do not think that extra expense ought to be incurred.
    Mr. ENTWISTLE: Is it not a fact that the Admiralty have made arrangements to provide this vessel, and have circumstances arisen to countermand this order? Will not the Admiralty proceed with their previous promise?
    Mr. AMERY: The Agreement with Russia has supervened upon that arrangement.
    Captain Viscount CURZON: Is it intended to send one or both of the sloops back again?
    Mr. AMERY: Not to the Murmansk coast, certainly.

    DOCKYARD LABOURERS (PROMOTION).
    Mr. W. M. ADAMSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the Admiralty refuse to act on the suggestion made by the Industrial Court in Award 323, dated the 1st June, 1920, regarding skilled labourers in the rigging houses of the dockyards, which suggestion was that men with 10 years' service who are suitable for promotion to rigger should be eligible for progressive advances of pay up to 37s. per week?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: The suggestion referred to was given consideration, and it was decided that it was incompatible with the general arrangements for regulating the wages of skilled labourers in the Royal Dockyards, and could not therefore be adopted.
    Mr. ADAMSON: For what reason was this question referred to the Industrial Court if the hon. Gentleman's Department are not prepared to carry out their recommendations?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: I think the hon. Member will see that this is a matter for debate rather than for question and answer.

    WAGES, MALTA DOCKYARD.
    Mr. W. M. ADAMSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the Admiralty do not reply to the petition of the men employed at Malta dockyard, presented in March last, wherein they give proof that their wages are below the standard of reasonable living, and in which they ask for an adjustment of wages to enable them and their families to exist; and whether consideration has been given to the facts and figures presented to the Admiral last March, showing in detail how the low wages in operation are spent; and why no reply is given to the letters from the trade union on this subject, dated 22nd June and 7th July, 1923?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: The petition referred to, in connection with which a full report has been received from the Admiral Superintendent, is under consideration. I may mention that the wages of the lowest paid local workmen are at present 140 per cent. over pre-War rates. I hope that it will be possible to send a reply shortly to the letters from the London office of the Workers' Union.

    FLEET VISIT TO THAMES.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the great popularity of previous visits in recent years of the Fleet to the Thames, he can arrange for such a visit during the ensuing autumn months?
    Mr. AMERY: I am afraid that, owing to important exercises and trials having to be carried out in the autumn, it will not be possible to arrange for a visit to the Thames this year.
    Captain MARTIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a visit next year?
    Mr. AMERY: Certainly.

    JUTLAND BATTLE (SCHOOL TEXT BOOKS).
    Mr. HURDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the American historians and American publishers, whose text books on the Great War are being used in leading English public schools, have made any application to the Admiralty for access to official documents on the Battle of Jutland; and whether, if such an application is now made, it will be acceded to, in view of the fact that these text books relegate the battle to a few lines of a footnote and leave the impression that, if there was any victory, it was more German than British?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not aware of any such application having been made, and I would point out that the official documents are already accessible to the public without special application, as they were published as a Parliamentary Paper in 1920. In addition, the Official Narrative of the Battle will be published in the autumn.
    Mr. HURD: Is it a fact that the Admiralty are stopping the preparation of monographs on the War which would enable schoolboys to know the facts?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not aware of that.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman make any representation to the Board of Education as to whether books of doubtful veracity on naval matters are being used in schools?
    Mr. AMERY: I will do so with pleasure.
    Mr. C. WILSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the concluding paragraph in the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" states that
    "The Battle of Jutland taken by itself must rank merely as a great and unique opportunity of which advantage was not sufficiently taken."
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that all this misapprehension is due to the official statement issued by the Admiralty at the time?

    PERSONNEL.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the

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    Admiralty the numbers employed at the Admiralty and the total personnel of the Navy in 1913–14 and at the present time?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: As the reply is in tabular form, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:

    Admiralty Staff (Headquarters).

    Personnel of the Navy.

    July, 1914

    …

    2,072

    146,047

    July, 1923

    …

    3,541

    98,627

    The figures for the Admiralty include messengers and charwomen.

    NAVAL AIR ARM.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZONasked the Prime Minister whether any decision has now been reached as to the relations between the Navy and the Air Force?
    Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister whether he can yet announce the decision of the Government on the future control of and responsibility for the air arm of the Royal Navy?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I propose to make a statement on this subject to-morrow.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will there be an opportunity for a Debate, or will it be confined to Question Time?
    The PRIME MINISTER: There will be an opportunity for Debate.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why this decision has been postponed so long, because the House cannot now give any verdict whatever?
    The PRIME MINISTER: There has been a very large investigation lasting half the summer.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Americans carried out a similar inquiry in 10 days and reported entirely in favour of the Navy?

    EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, NEWPORT (MON.).
    Mr. CLARRYasked the Minister of Labour if any agreement was made by
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    his Department with the local branches of certain trade unions in Newport (Mon.) regarding the use of the Newport (Mon.) Employment Exchange for the purpose of holding meetings, at a nominal cost to cover expenses?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): Agreements have been made with 15 trade unions and branches for the use of accommodation for meetings at the Newport Employment Exchange. A month's notice was given on the 10th July of certain increased charges, as to which I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a question asked by the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday) on the 18th July.
    Mr. CLARRY: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us the reason for the increased charges, and for the agreements being consequently broken?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The answer to that is given fully in the answer to which I have referred my hon. Friend.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    EAST HAM.
    Mr. BARNESasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons refused uncovenanted benefit in East Ham on the grounds that they are not genuinely seeking whole-time employment?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The number of persons in the area of the East Ham Local Employment Committee whose claims to uncovenanted benefit have been refused in the Fourth Special Period, from 2nd November, 1922, to 27th July, 1923, on the ground that they were not genuinely seeking whole-time employment, was 1,547 (men, 1,502, and women, 45).
    Mr. BARNES: Can the hon. Gentleman state what evidence has been submitted to show that 1,500 persons in one borough are not genuinely seeking whole-time employment, and, if the local committee's decision is final, will an appeal be afforded?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As the hon. Member must realise, it is quite impossible for me to say what evidence has been

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    given to the local committee with regard to the 1,500 cases. The Minister of Labour, unless there is very great reason to doubt it, almost invariably accepts the decision of the local committee, who have all the facts before them.
    Mr. MARCH: Has the applicant the right, after the committee's decision, to appeal to the Minister of Labour for an Umpire?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, not to the Umpire.

    TRADES DISPUTE.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Labour whether the Trades Dispute Disqualification Committee is now in a position to report; and, if not, when does he expect such a Report?
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the increase in the number of insured persons who are at present deprived, under Section 8 (1) of the 1920 Act, of the unemployment benefit for which they have contributed, he will urge the Committee which has been considering the modification of this Section for more than a year to report promptly, so as to afford relief, where possible, to the innocent victims of trade disputes for which they are in no way responsible?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given to the hon. Member for Dundee on Thursday last.
    Mr. SHORT: Can the hon. Gentleman say when this Committee, which was appointed over a year ago, is going to report, and has he used any influence with the Committee to report?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As I said in my previous answer, the Committee has met almost every week, and I think the last meeting was only a fortnight ago. It must not be assumed that they cannot come to an agreement. They fully realise the importance of coming to a decision as quickly as possible.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Can the hon. Gentleman say who is responsible for them not coming to a decision; is it words that are wanted?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I cannot say.
    Sir JOHN SIMON: Is it a fact that this Committee has been continuously sitting for more than a year? Is it not rather the fact that the Committee met some time ago, and could not agree, and that the Government have not done anything to secure agreement as to phraseology?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I do not think that that inference is justifiable. There is a later question on the Paper. But it would not do to assume that the Committee cannot come to an agreement. I have every hope that they will.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: If the Committee sitting for 14 months does not come to a decision before the reassembly of Parliament will the Government face the question themselves and bring in amending legislation?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I should prefer to wait first and see what are the results of the Committee's deliberations.
    Mr. PRINGLE: How long does the hon. Gentleman intend to wait?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Obviously I intend to wait until I am satisfied that there is no reasonable chance of the Committee being able to come to a conclusion. It would be very improper so long as there is a chance of their coming to a conclusion of acting in the direction suggested.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Would another year be ample?
    Mr. W. THORNE: There is absolutely no chance at all of their coming to an agreement!
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Labour on what date the Committee inquiring into the possibility of amending Section 8 (1) of the 1920 Unemployment Insurance Act was ap-ponted; the number of meetings it has held; and the date of the last meeting?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The Committee was appointed in June, 1922; nine meetings have been held; the date of the last meeting was 24th July, 1923.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Is it not obvious from that answer that the Committee is not adequate to deal with this important matter?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I cannot accept that.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Is it the contention of the hon. Gentleman that the Committee has met almost every week?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, I did not say that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, you did!"] What I said was that the last meeting was about a fortnight ago.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Did not the hon. Gentleman say in a previous supplementary answer that the Committee was meeting almost every week, and therefore—
    Mr. BETTERTON: If I said that, I did not mean to say it. What I meant to say, and what I do now say, is that the last meeting of the Committee was as recently as 24th July, and that we have not yet abandoned hope that they will come to a decision.
    Mr. SHORT: What is the date of the next meeting of this Committee?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am afraid I cannot give that offhand.
    Mr. PRINGLE: If we are to understand that during 12 months the Committee have only met nine times, how does the hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the statement that the Committee meets once a week?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I have already said that I did not say, or did not mean to say, that the Committee met every week—
    Mr. PRINGLE: You said "nearly."
    Mr. BETTERTON: What I said was that the Committee had met recently.
    Mr. SHORT: On a point of Order. I should like to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the large number of questions upon this very important matter. The Minister of Labour is not present, and this is just before the House goes into Recess. Are we not entitled to have some explanation of his absence?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put down a question.
    33. Mr. T. SMITHasked the Minister of Labour the names of those who constitute the Trades Disputes Disqualification Committee; and what changes, if any, have taken place since its appointment?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I will, if I may, circulate the reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. SHORT: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the change in the representation is due to some disagreement with the policy of the employers on the Committee?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I could certainly not answer that question without notice.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Could the hon. Gentleman say whether many changes have taken place?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The only change in the constitution of the original Committee is the substitution of Mr. W. B. Yates as Chairman owing to the death of Sir T. Munro, and the appointment of Mr. Hargreaves in the place of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stretford (Sir T. Robinson).
    The reply is as follows:
    The composition of the Trade Disputes Disqualification Committee is as follows:

    CHAIRMAN.
    Mr. W. B. Yates.

    MEMBERS.
    Employers' side:

    Sir Andrew Duncan.

    Mr. F. H. Hargreaves.

    The hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir Allan Smith).

    Sir Henry Holloway.

    Workers' side:

    The hon. Member for Nottingham West (Mr. Hayday).

    Mr. Arthur Pugh.

    Mr. Arthur Shaw.

    Mr. A. H. Smethurst.

    Ministry of Labour:

    Sir David Shackleton.

    Mr. T. W. Phillips.

    The only changes in the constitution of the original Committee are the appointment of Mr. W. B. Yates as Chairman, owing to the death of his predecessor,. Sir Thomas Munro, in April last, and the appointment of Mr. F. H. Hargreaves in the place of the hon. Member for Stretford, who resigned in May, 1923.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Labour whether the Trades Dispute Disqualification Committee during its deliberations have sought the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, Sir. I may point out that the Committee are concerned, not with the legal interpretation of the Clause as it now stands, but with the question whether any amended provisions can be agreed upon.
    Mr. SHORT: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his chief and also his predecessor in office contended that this was purely a matter of legal consideration; if so, why is it the members of the Committee have not consulted the Law Officers of the Crown upon the matter?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am not aware of the facts given by the hon. Gentleman, but I feel quite certain that if the Committee thought it desirable to take the advice of the Law Officers they would take it.
    Mr. SHORT: Is it the fact that the representatives of the employers are deliberately obstructing a settlement of this question?

    BENEFIT.
    Mr. EDMONDSasked the Minister of Labour if he will promote further co-operation between the Employment Exchanges and the guardians by giving instructions for records to be kept of the grounds upon which applicants for unemployed benefit are refused, these records to be available for the use of guardians?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Arrangements of this kind are already in operation. In the case of applicants for outdoor relief Poor Law authorities are informed, on request, as to the reason why un-covenanted benefit was disallowed, and they can obtain similar information regarding covenanted benefit in cases where the ground of disallowance is the applicant's failure to prove that he is genuinely seeking whole-time employment.
    Mr. SNELLasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that when boards of guardians in the Metropolitan area inquire from Employment Exchanges of the Ministry of Labour for information in relation to cases applying for relief on account of unemployment they are frequently informed that relief has been refused because the applicant
    1456
    is not genuinely seeking work; that they find that the applicant himself has not been informed of this at the time that the decision is arrived at by the Unemployment Exchange Committee, and that difficulties arise because no record is kept at the Exchange of the facts upon which the decision is based; and whether he will give instructions for records to be kept of the grounds upon which applications for unemployment benefit are refused?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The instructions are that each applicant should be informed of the decision on his claim, and I should be glad to have particulars of any case in which it is alleged that this procedure is not carried out. Records of the grounds for the decision are kept as far as practicable, but in so far as the decision is based on the answers given by the applicant at an interview with the Committee, it is not always possible to keep a complete record.

    APPEALS.
    Mr. G. WHITEasked the Minister of Labour whether, pending the Report of the Trades Disputes Disqualification Committee, he will take steps to expedite the settlement of appeals to the Court of Referees and to the Umpire?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am not aware that there is any undue delay in the hearing of appeals by the courts of referees and the umpire. Some delay is occasionally unavoidable owing to the need for inquiry into the facts or for careful consideration of difficult questions of interpretation which not infrequently arise.
    Mr. WHITE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the applicants have to wait so long as two months for a decision?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am not aware of what is stated in that supplementary question, but I would point out that these decisions very often involve very difficult legal questions, and they can only be settled after very full and careful consideration.
    Mr. SHORT: Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to give assistance to deal with those extraordinary cases?

    DOCK WORKERS.
    Mr. BARNESasked the Minister of Labour whether he has received a

    1457
    Communication from the West Ham Board of Guardians in connection with the dock strike; and can he state to the House whether he proposes to take any action?
    Mr. BETTERTON: A letter was received yesterday from the West Ham Guardians asking whether any concession can be made as regards payment of unemployment benefit to dock workers resident in their area who are now on strike. My right hon. Friend proposes to reply that this matter is governed by Section 8 (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, and that he has no power to allow benefit contrary to the provisions of that Section.
    Mr. SHORT: Does that not prove the necessity of expediting the Report?

    FISHERMEN.
    Mr. SHINWELLasked the Minister of Labour whether second fishermen, who are not wholly remunerative by a share in profits or earnings and who are paid daily wages with bonus on catches, come within the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Act?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The second fishermen referred to would be included in the unemployment insurance scheme if they were employed under a contract of service. The question whether they are so employed depends on the circumstances of each case.

    YOUNG PERSONS.
    Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Labour how many young persons were unemployed on the last date for which figures are available; how many were unemployed six months and 12 months previous to that date; and will he in each case give the figures for each sex separately?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I will, if I may, circulate these particulars in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following are the particulars:
    The numbers of juveniles under the age of 18 on the live registers of the Employment Exchanges in Great Britain at 23rd
    1458
    July, 1923, 22nd January, 1923, and 24th July, 1922, were as follow:

    Date.

    Boys.

    Girls.

    Total Juveniles.

    23rd July, 1923

    35,243

    32,476

    67,719

    22nd Jan., 1923

    52,771

    44,430

    97,201

    24th July, 1922

    42,641

    31,798

    74,439

    MILK RECORDERS.
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Labour what are the reasons for the ruling given by his Ministry to the effect that milk recorders are not engaged in agriculture and are therefore liable under the Unemployment Insurance Acts?
    Mr. BETTERTON: This question, I presume, refers to the decision given by the late Minister of Labour under Section 10 of the Unemployment Insurance Act of 1920 on the case of a milk recorder submitted to him. Decisions given under Section 10 of this Act are in the nature of judicial decisions, and the Act enabled any person aggrieved by a decision to appeal to the High Court. In these circumstances, I do not think it desirable to enter upon the legal grounds for a particular decision by way of question and answer.

    NECESSITOUS AREAS.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is now able to state what additional assistance the Government are prepared to give to those necessitous industrial areas which, as the result of two winters of abnormal unemployment, are unable to meet the burdens which will be thrown upon their local rates without substantially more State assistance than they are now receiving?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): I hope to be able to make a statement on this question in the course of this evening's Debate.

    TREE PLANTING.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Health whether he will urge on local authorities the desirability of tree planting on an extensive scale this winter, not only because of the value to the health of the community of this policy, but also to help existing unemployment?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 19th July to the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division. Local authorities, however, have no general powers to undertake tree planting, except as incidental to the making of parks and roads and other works which they are authorised to undertake.

    COST-OF-LIVING INDEX.
    Mr. EDMONDSasked the Minister of Labour what retail prices for the pur-

    AVERAGE Retail Prices of British Beef, as ascertained for the purposes of the Cost-of-Living Index-figure.

    Month.*

    Ribs (per lb.).

    Thin Flank (per lb,).

    1922.

    1923.

    1922.

    1923.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    d.

    d.

    January

    …

    …

    1

    6

    1

    6

    11

    10½

    February

    …

    …

    1

    6

    1

    6

    11

    10½

    March

    …

    …

    1

    6

    1

    6

    11

    10½

    April

    …

    …

    1

    6

    1

    5¾

    11

    10½

    May

    …

    …

    1

    6¼

    1

    5¾

    11¼

    10½

    June

    …

    …

    1

    6¾

    1

    5¾

    11¼

    10½

    July

    …

    …

    1

    6¾

    1

    5¾

    11½

    10¾

    August

    …

    …

    1

    6¾

    Not yet available

    11¼

    Not yet available

    * The figures relate to the first day of each month (except when that day fell on Sunday, in which case they relate to the preceding Saturday).

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    TRAINING.
    Captain BOWYERasked the Minister of Labour why 15,009 ex-service men have been removed from the waiting list without having been trained; how many were removed at their own request; and what are the detailed reasons for the rmoval of the rest?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Men have been removed from the waiting list because they no longer desired training, or were found on medical examination to be fit to return to their former occupation, or have been awarded civil liabilities grants in preference to training, or had died or left the country, or, in a few cases, because they were incapable of being trained for a skilled occupation. I regret that I cannot give the numbers removed for any particular cause without a detailed examination of all the cases.
    pose of the compilation of his cost-of-living index are taken in respect of British beef to-day; and what were the retail prices taken in January, February, March, April, and May in the years 1922 and 1923?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As the reply to this-question involves columns of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures promised:
    Mr. F. GRAY: Is it not the fact that a large number of these men who have been trained have not been provided with employment, and may not that have some bearing upon the matter?
    Captain BOWYER: Have the grants that have been given from the Civil Liabilities Fund, in these cases where it has been given, been adequate to recompense the men for foregoing the training which they had been promised?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Obviously, I have not particulars of cases with me now.
    Captain BOWYERasked the Minister of Labour how many men have been transferred from concurrent treatment and training to the industrial training scheme, but have not been trained thereunder; and how many of such men have been offered and given a grant instead of training?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Since 1st January, 1922, 1,743 men on leaving convalescent

    1461
    centres have been accepted by the Ministry of Labour for industrial training. The great majority have already been placed in training, but I cannot give precise numbers without detailed local inquiries. In addition, about 200 men have been awarded civil liability grants in preference to training.

    LAND SETTLEMENT (SCOTLAND).
    Sir THOMAS HENDERSONasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, in view of the preference accorded to ex-soldiers and ex-sailors in regard to the allocation of small holdings in Scotland, he will consider placing on an equal footing with them the fathers of soldiers and sailors who lost their lives in the War, who, had they returned, would have been eligible for such preference, and would have worked the holding with the help of their parents?
    Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland):I would remind the hon. Member that the existing preference to ex-service men arises from the direction given by Parliament in Section 28 of the Land Settlement Act, 1919, that the Board should give a preference to suitable persons who served in the forces of the Crown in the recent or in any previous war. Until the applications of the ex-service men, who are at present entitled to preference, have been satisfied, my Noble Friend does not consider that any such extension as is suggested in the question can be made.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how long it will be before the applications of ex-service men will be satisfied?
    Captain ELLIOT: I am unable to answer that question without notice.

    BOY LABOUR (MERSEYSIDE).
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to a resolution in regard to Merseyside scaler boys, passed at a special meeting of the Liverpool Juvenile Organisation Committee on the 23rd July; and, if so, whether he can make any statement on the subject?
    Mr. BETTERTON: My right hon. Friend has received a resolution from the Liverpool Juvenile Organisations Committee welcoming the draft scheme, which he has had circulated for their consideration and for the consideration of the employers and the trade unions concerned. With regard to the second part, of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Birkenhead, East, on the 25th July. I would add that a letter has now been received from the local branch of the National Amalgamated Union of Labour, the trade union concerned, expressing their willingness to co-operate in the scheme.

    TRADE UNION CONGRESS.
    Mr. GERALD HURSTasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the dispute which has arisen between the Cardroom Amalgamation and the Trade Union Congress; and if he will state what are the causes of such dispute?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I have seen references in the Press to a dispute between the parties mentioned, but I have no-other information on the matter.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a serious dispute in the Tory party and will he give his attention to it?
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is the question of the relations between a trade union and the Trade Union Congress a matter for which the Minister of Labour is responsible?
    Mr. SPEAKER: No. The hon. Member is quite right. I have been very busy, and this question escaped my notice, otherwise I should not have allowed it.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Having regard to the fact that trade unions have received special privileges—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"]—ought we not to have some further information about it?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The information can be obtained from other sources, and the-Minister of Labour has no responsibility in the matter.

    PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEES.
    Mr. F. GRAYasked the Prime-Minister whether his attention has been

    1463
    called to the refusal of Members of the House of Commons to agree to a Report of a Joint Committee of the two Houses in view of the controlling majority of the Members of the House of Lords on the Committee; and whether, in view of this last incident, he is now prepared to reconsider his decision as to the formation of future Committees of this kind?
    The PRIME MINISTER:I am not prepared to reconsider my decision in this matter.

    ROYAL AIR FORCE (CRANWELL FARM).
    Mr. WISEasked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the Report of the Estimates Committee, and especially the farm attached to Cranwell, which was started to supply the cadets with milk; and if he will see that the farm is sold or let at once so as to save the loss arising out of the farm being paid for by the taxpayer?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Lieut-Colonel Sir Samuel Hoare): I have been asked to reply. Endeavours have been made for some time past to let the Cranwell farm, but so far without success. I am as anxious as is my hon. Friend to dispose of any spare land in whatever way will be most to the advantage of the taxpayer.
    Mr. WISE: Can the right Hon. Gentleman give us any idea of the loss incurred, and is it not a fact that the milk supplied to the cadets now is costing the taxpayer over £1 per gallon?
    Sir S. HOARE: I should like notice of that question.

    MOTOR TYRES (IMPORTATION).
    Mr. W. GREENWOODasked the Prime Minister if he purposes making any further statement before the rising of the House as to the consideration he has given and the action, if any, he proposes to take in reference to the Import Duty on foreign motor-car tyres, in view of the unemployment in that industry?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this matter.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Did not the date given by the late Prime Minister mean that the Safeguarding of Industries Act would be a dead letter?
    Captain BENN: Does the Prime Minister not see the importance of giving a clear statement of policy on this very important issue?

    ARMAMENTS (EXPENDITURE).
    Captain BENNasked the Prime minister whether it is the intention of the Government to reduce expenditure on armaments in proportion to the armed forces which are liberated by the signature of the treaty of peace with Turkey?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The strength of the forces of the Crown is kept constantly under review by the Government, and the evacuation of Constantinople will be taken into account with other factors.
    Captain BENN: Does that mean that there will be a reduction in consequence of the peace with Turkey?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think there will be a reduction, but whether in consequence of the peace with Turkey I cannot yet say.

    CIVIL SERVICE (WOMEN CLERKS).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that ex-temporary women clerks who entered the clerical class through the first examination thrown open to them are now in receipt of lower wages than those with two or three years' less established service, who entered through the 1920 examinations; and whether this anomaly will be remedied?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks): I would refer to the answer which I gave on the 26th July to the hon. Member for Lambeth North.

    NAVAL DISARMAMENT.
    Commander BELLAIRSasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Congress is to be asked by the American Government to sanction for the next financial year 1924–25, a programme, including 10 cruisers of 10,000 tons, and that Congress struck out a programme

    1465
    for this year, including 16 cruisers of 10,000 tons, and substituted in the Navy Appropriation Act a request to the President to summon a fresh conference on disarmament; and whether, seeing that French policy is the real obstacle to an immediate conference, the Government will intimate that they are willing to enter into a conference with other Powers for further naval disarmament, leaving the adherence of France to any agreement to fructify at a later date when French policy may have changed?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have no information as to the proposals to be laid before Congress, though it has been stated in the Press that an appropriation for eight cruisers is to be asked for. Otherwise the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The effect of the recommendation in the United States Navy Appropriation Act for the calling of a new conference was explained in the reply I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend on 28th May. The proposal contained in the last part of the question is not one which can properly be dealt with by means of question and answer.

    MENTAL INSTITUTIONS.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the facilities for unlawful interference with the liberty of the subject afforded to managers of registered mental hospitals by the existing voluntary boarder system; that the system does not afford any real legal safeguards against the wrongful detention of such boarders for fraudulent motives in these private asylums, but only illusory safeguards dependent entirely on the integrity of persons interested, financially and otherwise, in detaining them; that the system does not render available for such boarders any evidence of maltreatment or wrongful detention, except by witnesses who would either be incriminated or their positions jeopardised by giving such evidence; whether the case of L.J.G. has been brought to his notice, who entered St. Andrew's Hospital, Northampton, as a voluntary boarder, and complains that her repeated demands for the restoration of her clothes and her liberty were disregarded and her written notices to the manager destroyed by him;
    1466
    and will he institute an immediate inquiry into the working of this system with special reference to the case of L.J.G.?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I can find no evidence that the existing voluntary boarder system is open to abuse in the manner suggested by the hon. Member. The case of L.J.G. has already been fully inquired into and has been the subject of legal proceedings. The case was first heard before a special jury in the High Court, which found that there was no evidence of wrongful detention or ill-treatment a decision which was upheld in the Court of Appeal. I know of no grounds for a further inquiry into the working of the existing voluntary boarder system.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is only one of very many cases in which people have suffered and that their only remedy is to go to law? I have had several letters from other people on the same subject.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This person seems to have had a very unfortunate experience.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the easy method of transferring people to lunatic asylums from these homes, where they cannot under any circumstances expect to get better?
    Mr. RAWLINSONasked the Minister of Health whether, in the cases of those patients who were received into private mental institutions in 1922 without being seen by a magistrate, and without the provisions of Section 8 of the Lunacy Act, 1890, having been adhered to, such patients have been since discharged, or, if not, under what power they have respecively been detained?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Pontypool on 26th July, I am advised that failure to comply fully with the requirements of the Section mentioned does not invalidate the reception orders authorising the detention of patients.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: Have any steps been taken to remedy the defect as to the giving of notice as required by the Act?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.

  HOUSING

    BRICKLAYERS AND PLASTERERS.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the great shortage of bricklayers and plasterers throughout the country, whereby building operations are hampered and in some cases stopped and unemployment caused; and what steps are being taken to increase the number of bricklayers and plasterers and secure increased facilities for the training of apprentices?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that there is some evidence of a scarcity of bricklayers and plasterers, although this hardly amounts to a great shortage. The question of the provision of a sufficient supply of skilled workers in the building trade is one in the first place for the employers' and workers' organisations to consider and I have no doubt that those organisations have the matter in mind.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Would it not be well for the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy himself whether full facilities are given to young men who desire to be trained as apprentices in these occupations, seeing that they are so much wanted at the present time?
    Mr. MARCH: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman ask the Minister of Labour for a record of these people who are signing on as unemployed? I saw a list not long back of 200.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ANNUAL DEFICITS).
    Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Health how many housing authorities there are in England and Wales and in Surrey, respectively; how many in Eng land and Wales and in Surrey have an annual deficit of more than 1d. rate on their housing schemes under the Addison proposals; and the number of houses built in England and Wales and in Surrey by those authorities whose deficit is not in excess of 1d. rate?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The information the hon. Member desires will take some time to prepare, but I will have a statement sent to him.

    SUBSIDISED HOUSES (PRICES).
    Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Health what restrictions he intends to place upon the price, whether for sale
    1468
    or letting, that may be charged by persons building houses with the assistance of public money under the Housing (No. 2) Bill?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The question of imposing such restrictions as the hon. Member has in mind in connection with subsidies to private persons erecting houses was very fully discussed on the consideration of the Housing Bill in this House. It was decided that no such conditions should be included in the Bill, and I do not propose to require the adoption of such conditions by local authorities.
    Mr. EDE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how, unless these restrictions are imposed, it will be possible to prevent a recurrence of the scandal of houses built partly out of public funds being held up by builders charging exorbitant prices?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If there were such restrictions there might be no houses built.

    PUBLIC ABATTOIR, LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Liverpool abattoirs are in such a condition as to be unfit for human food to be prepared therein; and will he urge upon the Liverpool Corporation the desirability, in the interests of public health, of putting in hand immediately the building of the new abattoirs for which a site was acquired several years ago?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am advised that the existing public abattoir at Liverpool is antiquated and does not conform to modern sanitary standards. As regards the second part of the question, I understand that the corporation have decided to proceed with the construction of a new abattoir.
    Mr. HAYES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the conditions in these abattoirs are such that animals which are awaiting slaughter are in view of the carcases of those which have been already destroyed? Is it not a question whether there is not an infringement of the Protection of Animals Act? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make representations to the corporation.

    WATER SUPPLY, DORSINGTON.
    Mr. WRIGHTasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that in July, 1922, his Department received a petition from the inhabitants of the village of Dorsington in the County of Gloucester, complaining of the lack of a proper water supply for the village, and asking the Ministry of Health to take steps to secure a proper supply of water for the village; that repeated efforts have been made over a long period of time to persuade the rural district council to move in the matter without any result; that the only supply of water for this village is dipped from an open well situated between two pasture fields; and that the inhabitants are obliged to carry this water in buckets a distance of from 500 yards to half a mile; whether his Department has received a report from the Gloucestershire County Council on this matter, together with a request that some steps be taken to remedy the evil; and what steps he is taking to see that a proper supply is provided?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware of the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member, and I am already in communication with the rural district council in regard to the matter.
    Mr. C. ROBERTS: Will the Minister consider the advisability of additional legislative powers for providing these water supplies?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: powers have been provided

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Health whether, in the case of old age pensions granted on appeal, he will consider the ante-dating of the grant of such pensions to the date of the original application?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under Section 6 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1919, an old age pension is payable from the first Friday after the claim is received by the pension officer or the first Friday after the claimant becomes entitled to a pension, whichever is the later, whether the pension is granted directly by a pension committee or is granted after an appeal to the central authority.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not quite understand the answer. Does it mean that, where there is an appeal and a protracted inquiry, the old age pensioner, even although entitled, loses his pension during that period?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Then what does it mean?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. and gallant Member will read the answer, I think he will see.

    SMALL-POX AND VACCINATION.
    Mr. LEACHasked the Minister of Health whether he has any official information that it is the practice in the United States to carry out vaccination by means of a single insertion only, and has it been found that this method is as protective against small-pox as the official four-marks method adopted in this country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no official information as to the method of vaccination in the United States of America. The Royal Commission on Vaccination concluded that vaccination in four places giving a total vaccination area of half of a square inch is more effectual and gives better protection Against small-pox than is afforded by one place or a less vaccinated area.
    Mr. LEACHasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that it is the practice in the United States to defer vaccination until children enter the public schools at about the age of five years; and has he any information to the effect that the incidence of small-pox there in the case of children under five is any greater than the incidence of the disease on that age-period in other countries, such as Germany, where infant vaccination is well observed?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAINI have no definite information as to the practice in the United States in regard to the vaccination of children, but I understand that in most of the States which enforce vaccination the law provides that every child must present a certificate of successful vaccination before admission to

    1471
    school. I have no information which would enable a comparison to be drawn between the incidence of small-pox in children under five years of age in the United States and in other countries, but the American statistics show that in those States where vaccination is enforced before admission to school the incidence of small-pox in the community generally is markedly lower than in those in which vaccination is not compulsory.

    VENEREAL DISEASE.
    Mr. PETOasked the Minister of Health whether he has consulted the Law Officers of the Crown as to the effect of the Venereal Disease Act, 1917, in connection with the Report of the Committee of Inquiry on Venereal Disease under the Chairmanship of Lord Trevethin; and, if so, whether he can give the House their opinion as to the position of chemists under the Act, and the necessity for legislation, if effect is to be given to the recommendations in Clause 14 of the Committee's Report?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have consulted the Law Officers of the Crown as to the effect of Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of the Venereal Disease Act, 1917, and I am advised by them that there is nothing in the Sub-section to prevent a chemist selling disinfectants for the prevention of venereal disease where no written or printed instructions are affixed to or delivered with the disinfectant, or from giving verbal recommendations of medicinal preparations intended to be used or applied for the purpose. In the light of this opinion, it would appear that legislation would be necessary in order to permit written or printed instructions to be supplied with the disinfectant, or to restrict the existing powers of chemists by confining them to the sale of articles, the composition of which had been approved by a competent authority.
    Mr. PETO: In view of the importance to the public health of written instructions being allowed to be sold with these disinfectants, will the right hon. Gentleman take the necessary steps to make the law conform to the purpose of Lord Trevethin's Report?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That matter is under consideration at the present time.

    PUBLIC VEHICLES (BROKEN GLASS).
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the large number of recent accidents to public-service vehicles, in which passengers are reported as having been injured by broken glass; and whether he will consider suggesting to the various local authorities the advisability of fitting their vehicles with glass of a non-splinterable variety?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): I have been asked to answer this question. I am not aware that there has been any substantial increase recently in the number of injuries caused by broken glass in connection with accidents to public service vehicles. I am anxious to encourage the use of some satisfactory form of non-splinterable glass in all passenger-carrying vehicles, but I am advised that the cost is so great that it would not be practicable to impose any condition with regard to its use.

    MEASLES.
    Sir ROBERT NEWMANasked the Minister of Health if the deaths resulting from measles have increased since the compulsory notification of that com plaint has been abolished?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There has been no such increase. The average number of deaths from measles during the past three years has been 5,042 per annum, as compared with 7,318 per annum for the four years, 1916 to 1919, during which the notification of measles was compulsory throughout the country.

    METROPOLITAN ASYLUMS BOARD HOSPITAL (CHILD'S DEATH).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to an inquest held on a child in one of the hospitals of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, at which charges were made by nurses against the doctor who attended the child; whether he proposes to hold any inquiry into the case; and can he make any statement on the subject?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have received a Report upon this case from the Metro-

    1473
    politan Asylums Board, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy. It will be seen from the Report that a full inquiry was held by the Coroner, that the jury found that the death of the child was due to natural causes, and that the statements made by the nurses contained serious discrepancies. The nurses have been reprimanded for their failure to make an immediate report of the occurrences which they allege took place. Under all the circumstances, I do not think that further inquiry on my part would serve any useful purpose.
    Mr. GILBERT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this doctor has since resigned? In view of the importance of this case, does he not think his Department should hold an inquiry?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I believe the doctor has since resigned, but I do not know for what reason.

    WESTMINSTER HALL.
    Sir ROBERT NEWMANasked the First Commissioner of Works whether it is possible for him to take steps to consult the proper authorities as to the feasibility of the State opening of Parliament taking place in future in the recently restored and historic Westminster Hall; and whether that Hall would provide sufficient accommodation for Members of both branches of the Legislature to attend the ceremony without resorting to balloting for places, as is done at present by Members of the House of Commons who desire to obey His Majesty's command to hear the Gracious Speech from the Throne?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Sir John Baird): The question raised in the first part of the question does not come within my jurisdiction. As regards the second part, the superficial area of Westminster Hall is 16,500 feet, whereas that of the Chamber of the House of Lords is, approximately, 5,500 feet, including the Galleries.

    STORM DAMAGE, BRIGHTSIDE, SHEFFIELD.
    Mr. PONSONBYasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is
    1474
    aware that in the recent storm considerable damage was done by floods as well as fire to the Tyler Street huts in Bright-side, Sheffield, and serious loss has been inflicted on many of the inhabitants through the damage and destruction of furniture and personal belongings; and whether, in view of the fact that the force of the floods was largely due to the faulty drainage of the roads and the insufficient protection of the houses from rain water, for which His Majesty's Office of Works is responsible, he will consider favourably the claims for compensation from those of the inhabitants who have been put to heavy expense by the damage done to their property?
    Sir J. BAIRD: Full inquiries are being made into the matters referred to, and my Department will, of course, remedy any damage for which, as landlord, it is liable. My advisers are considering to what extent (if any) my Department is liable in respect of claims received for compensation for damage caused by this most exceptional storm.

    REGENT'S PARK, PATHWAYS.
    Major BARNETTasked the First Commissioner of Works what steps are being taken to repair the pathways in the outer circle of Regent's Park; whether the rates levied by the Crown Estate Paving Commissioners are in tended to provide for this necessary work; and, if so, why the pathways are not maintained in proper repair?
    Sir J. BAIRD: The paths to which the hon. and gallant Member refers are maintained by the Crown Estate Paving Commissioners, out of rates levied on the Crown houses in Regent's Park. They are considered to be in a proper state of repair.

    SCIENCE MUSEUM, SOUTH KENSINGTON (ELECTRICITY).
    Mr. MUIRasked the First Commissioner of Works if, in view of the charges which have been made by officials of the Electrical Trades Union against the contractor carrying out the electrical installation at the Science Museum, South Kensington, of evading the specification

    1475
    issued by his Department by putting in faulty cables and generally carrying out the installation in an unsatisfactory manner, and seeing that an inquiry was held on the site, the result proving the correctness of the charges made and that the faulty work had been passed by the divisional engineer of His Majesty's Office of Works, notwithstanding that his attention had been called to the faulty work by the clerk of works on the job, he will make an inquiry into the whole matter and state if any additional cost has been imposed on his Department?
    Sir J. BAIRD: I do not admit the accuracy of the statements in this question. The whole matter was investigated on the spot by the chief engineer of my Department, and all the charges proved to be unfounded except one, namely, that a damaged cable had been repaired by the contractor's foreman without the knowledge of the officers of my Department. This has been put right at the contractor's expense. A small charge will have to be borne by my Department for expenses incurred by the contractor in the course of the investigation of the other charges which proved to be unfounded. I see no reason for any further inquiry into this matter.
    Mr. MUIR: Does the right hon. Gentleman still claim that the contractor who is carrying out this work is competent in every way, and can tender for Government contracts at the unreasonable price that is always put in? Does the right hon. Gentleman admit that, and, if he does admit it, does he still say that the work has been satisfactory in every respect?
    Sir J. BAIRD: I have answered most of that question in the answer which I have already given. As regards the competence of the contractor, judged by the standard of the work he is doing he as perfectly competent, and whenever he tenders for any work in future he will get the same consideration as any other contractor.
    Mr. MUIR: Will the Minister say what is the reason for trade union officials now being refused permission to go on these jobs, as they were previously allowed to do, since they tendered this complaint?
    Sir J. BAIRD: That is a totally different question. It is a matter of detail, and I think the hon. Member will see that if he wants an answer to it he should put it down. It is not included in the question on the Paper.

    FARMERS' CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES, SCOTLAND.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALLasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether any independent inquiry has been made by competent accountants into the balance sheets of farmers' co-operative societies in Scotland in order to ascertain the difference in the price for produce paid to farmers by the societies and by proprietary companies; and whether the original capital of the societies has so depreciated in value that the present financial position of many of them is precarious?
    Captain ELLIOT: As regards the first part of the question, my Noble Friend is informed that the accounts of all farmers' co-operative societies in Scotland are annually audited by an official auditor. So far as he is aware, no special inquiry of the kind indicated has been made. As regards the second part of the question, he has no reason to believe that the societies referred to are in a precarious financial position.

    BARLEY (IMPORT DUTY).
    Mr. BUTTON(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware of the great dissatisfaction amongst agriculturists at the delay in the introduction of the promised duty on imported barley, particularly in view of the approaching crop; and if he will state the reasons which compel this duty to be made the subject of a special Act, why it was not possible to include it in the Finance Act recently passed, and how and when he proposes to deal with the matter legislatively?
    Captain FALCON(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries when it is the Government's intention to impose a duty on imported malting barley?
    Mr. PRINGLE: On a point of Order. Is there any reason why a Private Notice question should be asked on a subject

    1477
    upon which a similar question appeared on the Paper when the hon. Member asking it was not present to put it orally?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is true that a question was not put by one of the hon. Members yesterday, but this, I understand, affects the business which may be before the House during the Autumn Sitting.
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Robert Sanders): Since I made the announcement of the Government's intention to impose an Excise Duty on imported malting barley, I have been advised that this course would not be possible without modification of the provisions of certain commercial Treaties with foreign countres. The Government are, therefore, considering the alternative method of dealing with the matter by means of a Customs duty. I regret that, in consequence, it has not been possible to introduce legislation before the harvest. The various interests concerned are being consulted, and, pending the result of these discussions, I can make no announcement as to the date when the Government's proposals will be laid before Parliament.
    Mr. LAMB: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this pledge was one of the great considerations in the settlement of the unfortunate dispute in Norfolk?
    Mr. MARCH: Which has never been settled!
    Mr. ROYCE: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered whether the treatment of the question of barley on an acreage basis might be preferable to anything in the nature of payment by results?
    Sir R. SANDERS: No, I have not considered that question, and I do not quite understand what it means.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Arising out of the answer which has been given to these questions, I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether the imposition of a Customs duty upon barley will not be a breach of the pledge given by the late Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), at the time of the General Election, that no additional Customs duties would be imposed in the course of the present Parliament?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As the suggestion had the approval of my right hon. Friend the Member for Central Glasgow, I imagine it would not.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Was not the suggestion to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow gave approval the suggestion which has just been abandoned by the Government, and not the new suggestion of a Customs duty? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]

    NURSES (REGISTRATION).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health why the General Nursing Council for England and Wales are still sending out application forms, Form 1 (a), to existing nurses even although the last date, 14th July, 1923, specified by the Nurses' Registration Act, 1919, for returning these forms has expired?.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed that the General Nursing Council have not issued application forms, Form 1 (a), to existing nurses since the 14th July, except in response to applications which were duly received on or before the 14th July, but could not be disposed of by that day owing to the great pressure of work.
    Dr. CHAPPLE: Is it the case that applications are still coming in from nurses who were entitled to be put on the register before the 14th, but whose applications are late? Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to that?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot say.

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE CERTIFICATES.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Minister of Health whether, with regard to the recent issue of National Health Insurance certificates bearing trade advertisements on the back thereof, he will give instructions for the withdrawal of any remaining stocks which the insurance committees may have left on their hands?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am afraid that I cannot undertake to withdraw certifi-

    1479
    cate books already issued, but I understand that the supply will soon be exhausted.
    Mr. MUIR: Does that mean that the Minister gives a pledge that this advertisement will not appear in any new books?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have already stated, in answer to a question, that new forms are now being printed which will not contain the advertisement.

    BLIND WORKERS' DISPUTE (MANCHESTER).
    Mr. R. DAVIES(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that all efforts made locally have now apparently failed to settle the strike of blind workers in Man Chester; and whether, in view of that unfortunate result, he will indicate what steps, if any, his Department is prepared to take to bring about a settlement of the dispute?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am aware of the dispute to which the hon. Member refers I understand that negotiations are proceeding between the parties locally. No request has been received from either of the parties for the assistance of this Department in the matter.
    Mr. DAVIES: Will the hon. Gentleman use the good offices of his Department to try to influence the blind asylum authorities to reinstate these men until the dispute is settled?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The moment we receive official notification of the dispute, we shall do our utmost to bring the parties together, and to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS (DOMINIONS' GALLERY).
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. GILMOUR(by Private Notice) asked Mr. Speaker whether he has now considered the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons Gallery accommodation, and what action he proposes to take thereupon?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Yes, I understand that the Select Committee was unanimous in its recommendations, and they may be
    1480
    taken to represent the views of the House. I propose, therefore, with the co-operation of the First Commissioner of Works, at the beginning of the Autumn sitting, to make arrangements for the proposed Dominions' Gallery to be available for visiting members of Dominion Parliaments and High Commissioners. One point of detail I reserve for further consideration: At certain seasons of the year it may be that there are few or no members of Dominion Parliaments in London, and in that case it may be desirable to admit other distinguished visitors from the Dominions, or elsewhere.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Colonel NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended, when the House reassembles, to proceed with the further stages of the Exemption of Sewers from Rating Bill?
Mr. PETOasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the widespread interest among all classes in the question, he intends to give facilities in the Autumn Session for passing the Bill introduced by the hon. and learned Member for York to check seditious teaching to children in Proletarian Sunday schools?
The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot at this stage make any promise in regard to facilities for private Bills during the Autumn Session.
Colonel NEWWAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Bill refers to the question of the exemption of sewers from rating?
The PRIME MINISTER: The same answer will apply.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Could the Prime Minister tell us whether he proposes to publish any Papers regarding foreign relations and negotiations which will assist us in our Debate to-morrow?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid it will be impossible to publish any by to-morrow, partly because the number of Papers it will be desirable to publish is considerable and the latest of them have only just been received, and to publish the replies from our Allies would require their permission. I am afraid, much as I regret it, that it will be impossible to do that by to-morrow.
Captain BENN: Will any Papers relating to the Lausanne Treaty be available to-day?
Mr. McNEILL: I am afraid they cannot be ready to-day. We are doing all we can to get them printed as quickly as possible, but there is a very large amount to be done and I have only just seen the proof. I hope to have them to-morrow.
Sir F. BANBURY: Is there to be a discussion about the Ruhr to-morrow?
The PRIME MINISTER: That rests with the Opposition.
Mr. HARRIS: Is it not a fact that the Lausanne Treaty had to be confirmed by the Angora Assembly? Why should the Mother of Parliaments be in a worse position than the Angora Assembly?
Mr. McNEILL: I am not aware that it is.
Mr. MacDONALD: May I further ask the Prime Minister whether he can announce the business to be taken during the first week after the Summer Recess?
The PRIME MINISTER: The usual Motion will be put down to-morrow for the beginning of the business after the Recess.
The business for Tuesday and Wednesday (13th and 14th November) will be the Workmen's Compensation Bill, Report and Third Reading.
On Thursday, 15th November: Second Reading of the War Charges (Validity) Bill.
On Friday, 16th November: Committee stages of the Pre-War Pensioners and Trade Facilities Money Resolutions.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this House do meet To-morrow at Eleven of the Clock; that no Questions shall be taken after Twelve of the Clock; and that at Five of the Clock Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without Question put."—[The Prime Minister.]
Captain BENN: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury if he will undertake, so far as it is within his power, that the House shall not be counted out before 5 o'clock?
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Commander Eyres-Monsell): I think that would be for the
1482
general convenience of the House. We will do our best to keep a House, though I cannot guarantee it.
Mr. PRINGLE: I think there are other considerations which arise in connection with this Motion. It is quite true it contains the arrangement which has been arrived at in the caste of one or two previous Adjournment sittings, but the conditions to-morrow are very different from previous Adjournments. In the first place I understand we are to have a discussion on the Ruhr, based upon a statement by the Prime Minister, secondly there is to be a discussion on the Lausanne negotiations, and in addition we have had an announcement from the Prime Minister to-day that his statement on the relations of the Admiralty and the Air Force is to be made tomorrow at Question Time. There is, therefore, a third subject upon which a number of Members may wish to address the House. We have three first class subjects of debate and, in the circumstances, to limit the sitting to 5 o'clock will be imposing an undue restriction upon the rights of Members who may wish to take part in the Debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I understand there are hon. Members opposite who have no interest in such important concerns and who treat this matter with derision. After all, we know that the situation in regard to the Ruhr is an extremely delicate one. and our relations with France are giving very grave concern to hon. Members in various parts of the House. We are to have no Papers before this sitting. We shall only know what the situation is when we have the words of the Prime Minister's statement. It is not a matter the interest in which is confined to this side of the House, but I believe there are hon. Members on the other side who are also gravely concerned about the present position. The House is to rise automatically at 5 o'clock. Those who wish to go away can go away, but undoubtedly the Prime Minister will make a speech of considerable importance, and it may take a considerable time. The Leader of the Opposition will be desirous of speaking, and I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) will also speak. [HON. MEMBERS: "Pringle!"] However surprising it may be to hon. Members opposite, I have no

1483
inention of speaking. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"]
In view of that expression of opinion, I have no doubt that I shall reconsider my decision. I know that there are certain hon. Members on the back benches on the other side of the House who have been putting questions on this matter and who will probably also wish to state their views. If that be the course of debate on the first topic and there is then a discussion on the Lausanne negotiations, it is obvious, should the need arise, that there will be no opportunity for those hon. Members who are interested in the very important issue of Air policy, in reference to which the decision is to be announced for the first time to-morrow. I suggest, therefore, that the Prime Minister might withdraw the last part of the Motion. It might turn out that in the circumstances the Debate could conclude at 5 o'clock, but I think he might perfectly well trust to an arrangement being made for the adjournment at a reasonable hour, and at the same time secure the rights of private Members who may wish to raise a discussion on any of the important issues. It is not with any desire to prolong the Debate unnecessarily that I make this suggestion, but simply to secure that on the adjournment to-morrow, when we are parting for a very considerable time, that hon. Members in all parts of the House should have a fair opportunity of putting their views before the House and Government on all these three important issues. I think it is a fair suggestion that I am making, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider it.
Viscount CURZON: I desire to make an appeal to the Prime Minister. He has told us that to-morrow he is going to announce a decision with which pretty well the whole future of the Royal Navy and the Air Force may very well be wrapped up. It is a most important issue for the Navy, and it is an extremely important issue for the country. For the last two years this matter has been under investigation by experts of all descriptions, and the decision has been delayed until to-day or to-morrow—at any rate, it is going to be announced to-morrow—and, so far as I can understand from what has been said this afternoon, there will be practically no opportunity of discussing this important
1484
decision to-morrow. We have been told that a Debate is to take place on the Ruhr and on the Lausanne Conference, and I fail to see that, under those conditions, there will be any opportunity whatever to discuss this decision of the Government. I would like to appeal to the Prime Minister—I do not know how-it could be done—whether he could not by arrangement with the Opposition allow a reasonable time for discussion of the Government's decision on the question of the Navy and Air policy. We do hope that the Prime Minister will be able to see that we do have a reasonable opportunity, at any rate, for discussion, and, if need be, of making our views and our attitude clear, when the Government announce their decision to-morrow upon this great stroke of policy.
Commander BELLAIRS: I do not see how, if the Ruhr discussion and the Lausanne discussion take place tomorrow, we are ever to get an adequate discussion on the question of the Air as well, and I would appeal to the Prime Minister. It may be that, from the point of view of a large number of Members, the Government are going to come to what we would consider a very pernicious decision, and we may wish to challenge that decision. There will be no opportunity of challenging it to-morrow. Would he, therefore, give us an opportunity of challenging the decision when we reassemble in the autumn? I would point out to the Prime Minister that we were promised a Committee of Inquiry on the 16th March, 1922. The House remained in entire ignorance of the fact that that Committee had never sat, and we have been fobbed off until the very last day of the Session, when we can have no real opportunity of challenging any decision to which they may come. It is only fair that we should have the whole of the facts before us discussed in this House, and, if we think it necessary, of challenging the decision of the Government. I do not know what that decision may be. It may be that it will involve no discussion at all. It may be satisfactory. But, if it be unsatisfactory, surely we ought to have an assurance that we shall be able when we meet in the autumn to challenge that decision by a Motion in this House. Owing to the promise of a

1485
Committee, given on the 16th March, 1922, there has been no real discussion of this matter at all, because we thought that it was under investigation all last year. I do not know who is the culprit or who is responsible for a direct breach of faith with this House in the fact that no Committee sat last year. I know that the Admiralty repeatedly asked for this Committee. My point, however, is that we did not raise any discussion in this House, because a Committee was supposed to be sitting. We were again promised a Committee this year, and, although the United States Government managed to carry out an inquiry in ten days, the whole of the Session has gone, and we can have no real discussion tomorrow on the issue. Therefore, I do most earnestly appeal to the Prime Minister, in the interests of fair play, that a discussion should be given to us on this very important question at an early date in the autumn.
Sir F. BANBURY: I hope that the Government will accede to the request made by my Noble and gallant Friend the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs). I do not want to go into the question whether there has been a breach of promise or unnecessary delay. I do not think that the delay makes very much difference. But I do think that the House ought to have an opportunity of discussing such an important matter. I think it is a very reasonable request of my hon. and gallant Friend to make, that when we meet in the autumn there should be a day fixed on which this very important matter should be discussed.
Mr. PETO: I desire to make an appeal to hon. Members opposite in support of what my Noble and gallant Friend the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellaire) have just said. It is obviously for the convenience of the whole House that it should rise, in accordance with the announcement made by the Prime Minister, to-morrow, and it is also obvious that no occasion in the autumn would be as appropriate for the discussion of this question of the Naval Air Service as to-morrow immediately after the Prime Minister's announcement.
1486
I therefore appeal to hon. Members opposite to let us have to-morrow for this discussion. The question of the Ruhr has been debated no less than six times during the present Session. It is a subject about which very crucial and critical negotiations are now being conducted by the Government, and is, therefore, one on which I should think the least said in this House the soonest mended. With regard to Lausanne, that is at any rate a fait accompli and the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has just informed the House that the Papers cannot be ready in time for any Debate to-morrow. Under these circumstances, I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) that it is only necessary for him and few Members opposite to adhere to their original intention of not intervening in the Debate so as to leave us full time to discuss the important question of the Government's policy with regard to the Navy and the Air.
Mr. MacDONALD: Might I just express a view in a sentence or two which I hope the Prime Minister will take into account? It is perfectly true that an agreement was come to that we should adjourn tomorrow at 5 o'clock. The statement which the Prime Minister made earlier in the day rather changes the situation. It may be quite right, as the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Peto) has observed, that we have discussed the Ruhr, and that Lausanne is a fait accompli, but those are the two subjects which we were to discuss up to 5 o'clock.
Mr. PETO: I only made an appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Mr. MacDONALD: At any rate, that was the arrangement. Now, if we are going to discuss the Air as well, it is perfectly certain that the Prime Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury will not hold any party in this House to an agreement which has been so altered in its conditions. I shall be always very glad to do anything that I can to facilitate business, but I think the Prime Minister will see that to add a Debate on the Air to the two subjects that have already been raised, and which alone were the subject of the 5 o clock agreement, does change things in such a way that it might be convenient to all parties to leave out the last words of the Motion.
The PRIME MINISTER: I think it would be a mistake to alter the wording of this Motion, which has been put down after careful consideration, in accordance with the Motion that proved very useful to all parties concerned at the close of last Session. The choice of subjects, of course, is not for me, but I have no hesitation in telling the House that I frankly accede to the very reasonable request of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs). The matter of the Air and the Navy shall be discussed soon after we re-assemble in the autumn. There are very good reasons for discussing it then rather than having a discussion, which might go to a late hour, on the day of Adjournment after many Members had left. I purpose making a statement to-morrow, and that statement must be of some length, because the matter is somewhat complicated and difficult. I am perfectly ready to publish, as soon as the printing can be done, the whole of the Report which was submitted to the Government to enable them to come to a decision, and I think it would be of the greatest service to hon. Members who might wish to take part in the discussion to be familiar with the Report which formed the basis of the discussion on which the decision was reached.
Mr. PRINGLE: Will this decision be actually put into operation at once?
The PRIME MINISTER: This particular decision, as so many Executive decisions, does not need the confirmation of the House.
Mr. PRINGLE: I know that, but I want to know whether it will be put into operation at once?
Viscount CURZON: Will the form of the Motion be such as to enable a vote to be taken upon it if necessary?
The PRIME MINISTER: I do not rule that out, but I should like to consider it between now and then, and I shall be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend will communicate with me on the subject.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That this House do meet To-morrow at Eleven of the Clock; that no Questions shall be taken after Twelve of the Clock; and that at Five of the Clock Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without Question put."—[The Prime Minister.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSONreported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to,—

  Dentists Bill,

  Expiring Laws Continuance Bill,

  Education (Institution Children) Bill,

  Merchant Shipping Acts (Amendment) Bill, without Amendment.

  Amendments to—

  Broadstairs and St. Peter's Urban

  District Council Bill [Lords],

  Chelmsford Corporation Water Bill [Lords],

  Croydon Corporation Bill [Lords],

  Wakefield Corporation Bill [Lords]

  West Somerset Mineral Railway

  (Abandonment) Bill [Lords],

  West Hartlepool Corporation Bill [Lords],

  Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [Lords],

  Chatham Corporation Bill [Lords],

  Morley Corporation Bill [Lords],

  Macclesfield Corporation Bill [Lords],

  without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the law with respect to the carriage of goods by sea." [Carriage of Goods by Sea Bill [Lords].

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  AGRICULTURAL RATES BILL.
  Order for consideration of Lords Amendment read.
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Robert Sanders): I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
  I propose to ask the House to accept the few Amendments which appear on the Paper. Two are merely drafting Amendments, and the two longer Amendments which follow were put down in order to carry out pledges given on the Report stage in this House.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

  AGRICULTURAL RATES BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Further exemption of Agricultural land in England from rates.)
    (2) Where under any local Act passed, or any Provisional Order confirmed by Parliament before the end of the present Session of Parliament, a rate to which the principal Act applied has become consolidated with a rate to which that Act did not apply, Section one of that Act as amended by this Section shall apply to the consolidated rate notwithstanding any provision contained in that Act or Order with respect to the proportion in which occupiers of agricultural land are to be liable to be assessed to or to pay that rate.
    Lords Amendments:
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "Parliament" ["confirmed by Parliament"], insert "at any time."
    Leave out the word "become," and insert
    "before the passing of this Act became or thereafter becomes."
    Agreed to.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Instruction to arbitrator in fixing rents under s. 12 of Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923.)
    Where under Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, a demand in writing for an arbitration as to rent to be paid for the holding has been made and has been agreed to, the arbitrator, in determining what rent is properly payable in respect of the holding, shall not take into account any increase in the rental value which is due to the passing of this Act.
    Lords Amendment:
    Leave out the Clause and insert

    CLAUSE 5.—(Relief not to be taken into account in determining rents under 13 & 14 Geo. 5. c. 9. s. 12.)
    The relief to occupiers of agricultural land granted by the principal Act as amended by this Act shall not be taken into account by an arbitrator in determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—(Sir B. Sanders.]
    Mr. C. ROBERTS: Would the Minister for Agriculture tell us what is the meaning of these altered words? I have not got the text of the original Bill before me, but I think I remember the right hon. Gentleman saying that there might be some alteration in language. I should like to know exactly what it means. My impression is that the new wording rather cuts out some of the words that were in the Bill as they were passed by this House. These words acknowledge the fact that the relief granted under the Bill would have its effect upon the rent. I think the new language perhaps is intended to disguise that and to eliminate words which in the view of the Minister are not properly applicable. Perhaps he will explain exactly the effect of the new language.
    Sir R. SANDERS: The effect of the new words is to carry out what I promised on the Report stage, namely, to make it a little wider in scope, and to make it more favourable to the tenant.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I have compared the wording of the new Clause with the wording of the original Clause 5, which is to be deleted, and I agree that the new wording is an improvement upon the old phraseology
    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 14.—(Rental value attributable to relief.)
    In determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding, an arbiter shall not take into account any relief to occupiers of agricultural lands and heritages effected by the Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Acts, 1896 to 1923.
    Lords Amendment: Leave out Clause 14 and insert

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Relief not to be taken into account in fixing rents.)
    The relief to occupiers of agricultural lands and heritages effected by the Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Acts, 1896 to 1923, shall not he taken into account fey the land court in fixing a fair or equitable rent for a holding under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1919, or by an arbiter in determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding.
    Agreed to.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.

    UNEMPLOYMENT.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I think there is no need to apologise for once more raising the question of unemployment. Not only does unemployment affect a very considerable number of workmen, but it also affects a considerable number of business people, who are making their voices heard. The position of the workmen in relation to the Government and society generally is going worse every day. Anyone who is acquainted with the working of the unemployment pay or with Poor Law relief or with any of the official means for dealing with unemployment will agree with me that all the conditions have been tightened up to the disadvantage of the workmen. I say that without hesitation, and I shall be very glad to be properly corrected by the Minister of Labour.
    This business of sending men away long distances from their homes for jobs, and when it is proved impracticable for them to take the jobs to say that they are people not genuinely seeking employment is, in my judgment, a pure dodge to get out of paying them the amount of money to which they are entitled under the Act. Men who have been a long period drawing the allowance, perhaps for a year and sometimes longer, and have not been able to get employment, find all of a sudden that they are told that they are not persons genuinely seek-
    1544
    ing employment, and their unemployment pay is stopped. The Minister of Labour will tell me that there are appeal tribunals, umpires, and so on to whom these men can appeal, but these men have not the vocabulary which enables them to stand up to the gentlemen on the appeal tribunals when it comes to a question of arguing a case.
    Then men are obliged to go to the guardians for relief. It is a great pity that there are three authorities dealing with unemployment. Whatever assistance the unemployed get ought to come direct from one department. The arrangement by which the Minister of Health settles the conditions under which the men shall be employed on relief work, and so on, is an anomaly which ought to be got rid of by some administrative action, because we have men put to work under these schemes, and paid for that work through the agency of the board of guardians, who very often impose such conditions that no self-respecting trade unionist dare go and do the work. That is another way of penalising the workmen, and it is a practice that is growing.
    The assistance which the men receive is being cut down very considerably. A paltry 10s. a week is allowed for a man, with 10s. for his wife and 1s. each for the children. When the House passed that scale it had no idea that a man and his family could live on any such money, but it put a proviso in the Bill stating that when the Poor Law authorities or other authorities were giving assistance they must take into account what the man was receiving in this respect. During the past 12 months a great deal of cutting down has been going on, and the assistance in many places is now too little to enable a man and his wife and children to exist decently. At the close of the War the Government apparently could not do too much for these men. It gave them, viewed from the point of view of relief, the full standard of relief, but that has been cut down until to-day many men and their families who receive Poor Law relief, plus the dole, are only just getting enough to barely exist.
    The condition of things is becoming daily worse for the men who are unemployed, and the old Poor Law spirit is growing. I hear now talk of men who do not want work. I have heard it in the Lobby. When I was in the House

    1545
    before, we heard that sort of statement very often. Because some men have been out of work for long periods, the story goes round that they are not looking for work properly. Therefore, the guardians or the Employment Exchanges think it right to penalise them in some way or other. When you have men who are not genuinely seeking work, the proper thing is to offer them work at proper wages at some place near their homes, and test them in that way, and not to test them by imposing semi-starvation on their women and children. That is what you do when you cut down their allowance, or refuse, as is often the case at the Employment Exchanges, to give them any relief at all. These are a few of the hardships in regard to men and their dependants. I am sorry the Minister of Health is not represented this afternoon, because he is interested in this matter, as his Department has a great deal to do with the administration of assistance to these people.
    Unemployment is an evil under our social and industrial life for which neither the workman, the capitalist nor any one group of people are responsible. It is something inherent in the system under which we live. Therefore, you have no business to penalise either children, men or women who are afflicted by this system. The extraordinary thing is that in spite of the fact that this country, according to some figures published to-day, has had removed from the labour market 1,170,000 disabled men, in addition to nearly 1,000,000 men killed in the War, is over supplied. One would have imagined that with nearly 3,000,000 men taken out of the labour market there would be a shortage of men rather than a superfluous number of workers. The enormous increase in the productivity of men and machines during the War, and the loss of markets on the Continent because of the War, has really put us in the position in which we find ourselves to-day. We ought all to recognise that, and if we do so we shall understand that it is not the fault of individuals, and that individuals ought not to be penalised. It is a condition of things to which not merely the Government, but everybody who takes any part in helping to administer affairs ought to be giving the most serious attention.
    1546
    Last Thursday, members of every party in this House took part in a Debate on unemployment, and it was generally agreed that something should be done nationally by the Government out of national resources. There was one exception, however, and that was the hon. Member for Mosley (Mr. Hopkinson) who, economically, lives in a world of his own. He believes in the old doctrine of leaving everybody alone to fight their own way. He is a voice from Manchester, voicing the old theory of buying in the cheapest and selling in the dearest market, but he is a voice crying in the wilderness. He rebuked the right hon. Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) for preaching a doctrine in which he did not believe. To apply the doctrine which the hon. Member for Mosley advocates would be to make matters very much worse than they possibly could be even under the present conditions.
    The hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Cardiff asked for Government assistance to help industry to get going, but he also told us—I looked up his speech this morning—that even if the Ruhr question were settled in all probability our condition would be worse than it is to-day. That is an extraordinary statement, unless you are to take into account another factor too, which is that the world and the world's markets, relatively speaking, get smaller and smaller. I only refer incidentally to that in order to say that to get this question properly settled you will have to adopt the policy advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) when introducing his Motion. The fact that the great capitalists in this House have not only approached the Government, but have also sent a letter to the Press appealing for State money and State organisation proves that the problem is not, in spite of what was stated in argument, one dependent completely on private enterprise.
    Yesterday, in the "Times," Sir Charles Macara tells us that the Federation of Cotton Spinners in a moment of despair are talking of that great industry drifting to ruin. I am surprised that we have not been told that it is Socialism or the Socialist policy that is sending that great industry to ruin. I call attention to these things because I want to point out that this problem is

    1547
    one which this House must tackle in a big sense or we are going to be ruined. When great captains of industry, like those who manage and control the cotton trade, talk of their industry drifting to ruin, when those who are supposed to organise the great engineering industry are appealing for Government aid, it proves that you are up against a problem which needs no small tiny sort of effort, no more talking about, but needs some effective action here and now. I under stand that there was some proposition about £40,000,000 being spent on electrifying railways. £40,000,000 sounds a lot of money, and it would be a lot of money if put upon the table at once. But everybody knows that if you talk of £40,000,000 being spent on electrifying railways, making roads or any work of that kind, it will not be spent at this moment, but will be spent over a period of years. I think that, instead of talking in that small way—I do not know whether this will appeal to Members of this House—we ought to do something similar to what was done for the purpose of carrying on the War. Then you appealed to the patriotism of the people to lend the country a big sum of money in order to carry the War through. I think that we might easily appeal to the country for a great big public works loan, for the purpose of spending it on work of a necessary character and of a productive character.
    Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: Will the hon. Member specify that this business loan should be given at a low rate of interest to different industries, or would he suggest that the cotton operatives ought to go on the land or to other jobs?
    Mr. LANSBURY: If the hon. Member will wait, I will tell him what I think should be done. If a proposition is put up from these benches which involves money, we shall be told "You cannot get the money, because we are taxed heavily enough already." I am not one of those who think that we are poor in England. Looking at the picture papers this morning, I saw some beautiful scenes at Goodwood and other places. There appears to me to be more of that sort of display and ostentation now than took place during the War. We could not afford those things during the War. If we are poor now, and need a national
    1548
    effort to get us out of the economic morass in which we are at present, I think that that is a thing that ought to be cut off, so that the money might be used in a more profitable way, and I think that if we had real patriotism in the country, a big loan could be raised and could be spent on public purposes.
    The hon. Member for the Royston Division of Lancashire (Sir W. Sugden) asked, did I want it spent for the development of the cotton industry or through the capitalists? If this country were under the sort of control under which I would like it to be, I would not have it spent in that way. But we are' living in conditions in which none of us can hope to apply our economic principles to the full extent to which I would like to apply them. What I mean is that I cannot ask this House to adopt Socialism to-day, because I know that neither the House nor the country is ready for it, and you can only have Socialism properly when the people want it. Therefore, as a temporary measure, because people are in a state of semi-starvation, I would like the money administered by a Committee representative of the whole of this House. I think that a Cabinet Committee to deal with unemployment is not representative enough. I think that the subject of unemployment is so terrible and so difficult to handle that long ago, not in the last two days of the Session, a Committee of this House should have been sitting, working out plans for dealing with the problem
    I would now if I had my way raise this loan, and I would put it at the disposal of such a Committee to do all kinds of work, electrify railways, clear slums, build new houses, make trunk roads, and so forth. Then there is that great scheme of electrical stations, which Lord Haldane's Committee brought forward years ago, and which ought to have been carried through long ago. Everybody knows that electricity can be much more efficiently and cheaply generated on the top of pits than by carrying the coal to different centres, and generating the electricity at a thousand and one places instead of in the few. All that would be work of tremendous importance to the community. We shall be told probably that such an undertaking would throw more men out of work, and so forth. But that is the argument that is always used,

    1549
    we are told, by the ignorant workman when machinery is introduced. Under any rational system of society that sort of getting rid of labour would benefit everybody in the community. But I will come back to that in a moment.
    I wish to say one word to the President of the Board of Trade and the hon. Member who represents the Foreign Office. I think that, side by side with all that we do in this way, we ought to seek peace and insure it with people on the Continent, and especially Russia. I do not want to deal with Germany at this moment, because that will be dealt with to-morrow, but we are told by business men that they want to get their money from Russia, and the way they hope to get it is by abusing and blackguarding Russian representatives in this House on every conceivable occasion. If I wanted to make peace with a man with whom I had a quarrel I would not go that way to work about it, and if I wanted to collect debts from people who owed me money I would not set about it in that way. I should try to find out whether there was any truth in the statements that were made publicly as to their willingness to discuss and arrange money and other differences. Great Britain is a very strong country and we can probably talk to Russia and the Russian Soviet Government in any way we please, but that day will not always be, and the present Government is making a profound mistake in one day treating them with great contempt and the next day having the Prime Minister making a speech in which he says how important it is for the future welfare of Europe and ourselves that Russia and Russian trade should be developed. The President of the Board of Trade last week did not take that view, and he also said that the question of recognition did not come in. He knows better than I that all trade, even between individuals, is everywhere a matter of credit. When it is between nations it is everywhere a question of whether the Government is recognised or not.
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame)The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) indicated dissent.
    Mr. LANSBURY: If the right hon. Gentleman does not mind, I take the liberty of differing with him. I think of
    1550
    the country which is recognised by another country has a better standing for credit and so on than a country that is not recognised. I firmly believe—I have no authority for saying this—that if the Russian Government were recognised the question at issue between British nationals and that Government would be settled. I went to Russia long before anyone else from this country. I believe that I was one of the first Englishmen to get there. One of the first questions I asked M. Krassin, when I interviewed him—and I sent the interview to this country—was "What are you going to do about these debts?" He said then, "Russia is a great country. We shall probably have to give concessions, but we shall want our claims against the other Governments settled at the same time." I believe that that is the crux of the whole business, that the British Government does not want to recognise the claims which the Soviet Government would have against us for making war and helping other people to make war upon them.
    Do not forget that America, when I was a boy, made the British Government pay the Alabama claims after arbitration. If you want to trade with Russia, and if you want to get your money from the Russians why should you not urge this Government to recognise the Russian Government, because if you do not recognise them how can you ask them to make arrangements to pay their debt? How can you ask them to do that if they are not a Government? If they are a Government, why not show them that you are capable of treating them as decent honourable men without always believing every lie that comes over the wire? Why not ask them to come to a conference and make them face the position? Up to the present that has not been done.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: It was done at Genoa, and it was put forward for six weeks at The Hague.
    Mr. LANSBURY: The recognition of these debts was made a condition precedent of recognising the Soviet Government. That is the whole point. How can you expect a Government which you do not recognise to recognise the debts of a Government who say, "You are not a Government"? The quarrel between ourselves and the Soviet Government is a matter of words. It is just this,

    1551
    that if you can get them to recognise their debts to you, and leave their claims against you on the shelf, as it were, you have got a very big advantage. They want a conference where all these questions shall be settled, but they say, as a condition precedent, "Recognise us as a Government that is able to negotiate and deliver the goods when the settlement is arrived at." That is the position you are in, and I am sorry that some hon. Members have got such a great hate with regard to Russia, and want to Keep this money from them. I wish they would sit down and think this thing out. If they were representing a Government which was not recognised, and if they were asked to recognise debts, the first thing they would say would be, "Well, recognise us as a Government." That is so obvious that I do not understand anyone having any other view about it. I have dragged this in because I am as certain as I stand here—and I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree—that if you could get this business settled with Russia on equitable terms between the two nations, there would be nothing in the way of trade and commerce that we could not hope for from such a settlement. Therefore, on the side of foreign trade, I hope to see a very much better spirit displayed—not the spirit that is exhibited here this afternoon—which will enable the Russians to approach us and will enable us to approach the Russians in order that we may do business.
    Do not let us run away with the idea that we have never recognised what you call "murderers" before. We recognise those people who slew the King of Portugal and the Heir-Apparent, and we recognised the people who became the Government after all. We recognised the King and Queen of Serbia, after the previous King and Queen had been slaughtered and chucked out of the window; we just waited a few months and then recognised them. As a matter of fact, revolution is always all right when it is completely successful. The villain of yesterday is the hero of to-day. I will tell hon. Members another thing which they all forget down here in this House. Just outside there is a statue of Cromwell, and up the road there is one of King Charles. That shows what decent people we English people are. We honour the King, and we honour the man who
    1552
    murdered him—if you call it murder. If hon. Members would only have that sort of spirit with regard to the Russians we should get a move on. Even that would take time, and I wish, if I may, to elaborate what I think ought to be done further in our own country. I am appalled at the shocking waste of young life that is going on just now. There is nothing which breaks one's heart so much as to see that day by day. I come here, and mix with hon. Members, and it goes out of my mind; but every morning I go out of my home and meet scores of young people—some boys and girls, some young men and young women. There they are, you have spent money on trying to educate them, and at the finish of what passes for their education they are just wandering the streets!
    That is an appalling thing. The right hon. Gentleman has done a little. He is going to re-open these centres; but even so—ten thousand out of all the tens of thousands that there are! I beg him to believe that I am not saying this fretfully at all, but he really has not touched the fringe of the problem in the East End of London. Every one of us who come from there will agree about that. What happens in other towns, I do not know, except that on the Government's own figures, only something like 9,000 or 10,000 children have been dealt with. Why cannot the Minister of Education and the Government generally say, "While this terrible period of depression is on we will not attempt to turn these children out of school, and drive them into the labour market"? There is no room for them; nobody wants them; and the Government had better by half spend even millions on preserving their moral than allow them to go to ruin, as they are going. The boys and girls of the middle and upper classes do not expect to go to work until they are 20 or 25 years of age, but if the children of the clas3 from which most of us here come—and some of you, also, come—start life having no occupation it is their ruin in the days to come. Here you have tens of thousands of them, and it would pay you not to fool round, starting special centres for them, but definitely to say that the school age should be raised, and that you would give them maintenance grants. You must give them maintenance grants.
    You complain because many of the children do not go to the schools you set

    1553
    up. There is a perfectly simple answer. Boys and girls, when 14 years of age, shove their arms and legs through their clothes, and, generally speaking, they want more to eat, more boots, more everything; and the poor mother is only too anxious for them to earn even 1s. or 2s. a day now and then. Therefore, you cannot blame the mother for wanting the boy to go out and earn whatever he can pick up. The boy wants to do that. All of us did, or at least I did, when I was 14. I wanted the pocket money, and to feel that I was on my own. Some hon. Members on the other side never had that glorious feeling when they were 14. They were at Eton or Harrow—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—nicely tucked up; that is, some hon. Members—I am not saying that of all of them. They will not deny it. I want them to see that what they are now trying to do is an absolute impossibility. They are trying to shove these children into the labour market, where they are not wanted. I ask the Government to keep the children at school, frankly to face the question, and to give whatever maintenance grants are necessary to maintain them at home.
    I am a propagandist, and I go about the country a great deal. I went for a holiday—not as a propagandist—into Cornwall at Easter, and, as a propagandist, I went into the Forest of Dean. An hon. Member asks how I want the money spent? I will tell him two places where I think you could spend a lot of money usefully and productively. One way would be in restoring the tin industry in Cornwall. I am told that the mines cannot be worked because they are full of water. I am told that no private people can clear those mined of the flooding that is taking place. It seems to me that it would be a very good expenditure on the part of the Government if they cleared those mines and made them fit for working. Further than that, in the Forest of Dean something could be done. Anyone who has been there, and who has seen the manner in which the mining is carried on by individuals, will agree with me. I understand that a very old custom, which gives one, two, or three people the right to dig coal, is responsible for that. The whole of the minerals in the Forest of Dean could quite well be worked nationally, and as a national effort. I
    1554
    do not see why the Crown lands which belong to the nation should not be developed, instead of our spending a few millions developing land in Australia or elsewhere. I am quite willing that the Colonies should be developed when we have developed our own land first. I would spend a considerable amount of money on those two places which I have mentioned.
    I want to say a word about agriculture. I do not want to send the cotton spinner to be an agriculturist; though I think, as the markets of the world become more restricted, as India develops itself more, and as Egypt is developed, probably a considerable number of people who at present get their living in factories—if there be a similar sort of population here—will have to get their living on the land. I think we might organise education for children plus an agricultural organisation in the country, which could be worked on co-operative lines similar to Denmark. I am always amazed when I hear speeches from the other side with regard to agriculture, because excuses are put forward why agriculture does not make headway here. From them, one would imagine that the land in Denmark was better than the land in this country. As a matter of fact, the land on this side of the North Sea is infinitely better than that on the other side, and it is only want of will, want of organisation, and want of cooperation that leaves argiculture in the plight it is. We might spend some millions on developing co-operative agriculture. During the War, no end of forests in this country were cut down, and no end of trees were slaughtered, for the purpose of getting pit props and other things needed that could not be obtained from abroad. There is no reason why the forests should not be replanted, and a considerable amount of work provided in that way.
    We, on these benches, are very often charged with advocating proposals which lead nowhere. Whatever we do in that respect, all the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman have left us with at least 1,500,000 men, and from 200,000 to 300,000 women unemployed. I remember the very practical appeal that was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sea-ham (Mr. Webb) on the last occasion, on behalf of the women. Practically nothing has been done. I do not know whether

    1555
    hon. Members realise what a terrible thing it is to a woman to be out of work. A man can go and get a glass of beer; he can be treated, and meet his friends, and so on. For a woman, it is the most terrible tragedy that can face any human being. The other day two young girls, about 18 years of age, came to our house; they had been out of work for 15 months. I know some hon. Members will say, "Why do they not go to service?" I do not believe either of those girls had ever been taught anything at home, for the perfectly simple reason that directly they were able to be shoved out they have been shoved into the factory. Long ago real training centres of every kind, not merely for domestic service but for all kinds of work, ought to have been set going. For these young people from 18 years of age not only this sort of training, but other kinds of training ought to be forthcoming.
    I repeat, with a great deal of emphasis, that I do not at all think the giving of doles is a good thing. I would not advocate it, although I come from a borough which gives away more money than any other borough of its size in the country. There is not one of us who believes that that is the right method of dealing with this question. We have gone to Government Department after Government Department; we worried the right hon. Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) day after day, as we worried other Government Departments. What we do say is that we will not allow the physical condition of our people to go down if we can help it. That is why we spend money. We come to this House, and ask hon. Members to realise what nearly 2,000,000 unemployed means, both to the people themselves and to their children. We ask hon. Members, instead of going for their holidays and trusting to what the Minister will honestly tell them he is going to do, to remember that what he is doing will be but a drop in the ocean, and that it will leave the great mass of the unemployed to be dealt with by doles. Instead of accepting that, and. going away on their holidays, let all hon. Members join in asking the Government to give us a special ad hoc Committee to deal with unemployment, with powers to get money, either from the Treasury or
    1556
    in some other way, and at least to try to put some of those 1,500,000 men into work.
    5.0 P.M.
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) in his very interesting speech covered a great deal of ground and he will forgive me if I do not follow him over all of it, and particularly if I do not follow him in his tour into Russia. He said the differences between this country and Russia were paper differences. Well, the difference between de jure and de facto is very largely a paper difference—
    Mr. LANSBURY: The right hon. Gentleman was not here at Question Time.
    Sir M. BARLOW: There is, however, a much more material factor for consideration and it is that trading is difficult unless people accept the basis on which all trade is done. However, I appreciated the speech of the hon. Member, and he said many things with which I cordially agree. In particular, he said that the problem of unemployment was a very difficult one. I think that marks a considerable advance in the attitude taken up by hon. Members opposite. We were told in the early days that the problem was so simple and so easy that it could be settled in five minutes if we were to accept, shall I say the nostrums, suggested by the Labour party.
    Mr. MARCH: If you had intended to settle it, but you did not.
    Sir M. BARLOW: The speech to which we have just listened, gives more hope of a common ground on which we can join in endeavouring to handle, at any rate, some of the more important features of this grave problem. I will not say more with regard to the hon. Member's speech than this. Reference was made by him to a suggested tightening up of the means of dealing with unemployment. I beg to assure the hon. Member that really is not so.
    Mr. MARCH: Yes, it is!
    Sir M. BARLOW: It is rather difficult to proceed with a speech when one is contradicted in that manner. I never interrupt hon. Members opposite, and I

    1557
    ask the same courtesy from them. What are tightening up are the avenues of employment, and it is because employment is so difficult to secure that local committees are casting their net further a field, in order to see whether they cannot get men into employment who otherwise might get employment at home. I hope the hon. Member will not think me discourteous if I do not deal at greater length with the points he raised. He made an interesting suggestion about public works loans, and I should be glad of an opportunity to examine it further. I believe the more we can do in a time of difficulty like this to mobilise what is one of our great assets, namely, credit, to tide us over these difficult times, the better. To that extent, the hon. Member and I are on common ground. The Prime Minister promised a few days ago that I should make a statement as to the plans which, so far, the Government have settled for dealing with this evil of unemployment during the winter. In as few words as I can, I will indicate what those plans are, so far as they are at present settled. I should like to make two points at the outset. First, the plans which I am going to enumerate are the result of careful consideration. Some of them are novel in character—and I hope they will be effective in operation—and they have been accepted after careful examination of suggestions from various quarters, including a memorandum from the industrial group in this House. Secondly, I want to make clear that what I propose to say to-day is only a first broad outline of our programme. We desire to lay these plans in good time, so that local authorities may get on with their schemes, but the door is not closed and the Cabinet Unemployment Committee will continue its operations and our plans will be enlarged as the autumn proceeds, according as necessity may require.
    It is a commonplace to say that there are difficult times ahead of us. Before I sit down I hope to indicate one or two quarters in which there are rather more hopeful possibilities, but nobody dissents from the broad proposition that there is a difficult winter ahead of us. What are the figures? When I was speaking on this subject in February last, I gave the figure on let January, and the unemployed on the register then numbered
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    1,485,000. The figure on 15th February was 1,360,000. I said then, and I was criticised in certain quarters for undue optimism, that I hoped, "apart from untoward incidents in Europe", which nobody could foresee, that the numbers would continue steadily to decline. We all know there have been "untoward events" in Europe. The occupation of the Ruhr, which at first seemed to fan the flame of improvement, is now having an entirely contrary effect, but, in spite of that, there has been a decline, and a steady decline. The number on 1st April was 1,284,000. In the middle of June it was 1,200,000, and the figure now is 1,185,000. It is true the decline has not been anything like as great as we all hoped it would be. It is also true that this is the best portion of the year for occupation and, quite frankly, though I said nothing of this to the House at the time, I had looked forward with hopefulness to getting well under the 1,000,000 during the late summer. Clearly that hope is not now going to be realised. Last winter in the months from October to April the average figure of unemployed was 1,345,000. I hope this winter it will be no worse, but he would be a rash man who would suggest that it is going to be very much better. May I say here, and I am apportioning no blame to anyone but merely indicating the fact, that it must be borne in mind that our great industrial disputes do in the end contribute to increasing the cost of commodities and the figures of unemployment?
    Mr. SHORT: Why do you not intervene?
    Sir M. BARLOW: That is a curious interruption. I do not wish to say it in any spirit of self-glorification, but I have just had an opportunity of intervention in the railway dispute, and I am glad to say it has been with the most satisfactory results. Last year the Government endeavoured to deal with this problem of unemployment along three main lines of effort—relief works, stimulation of our trade and the Unemployment Insurance Acts. I will deal with each of these shortly, taking them in the reverse order. First, as to the Unemployment Insurance Acts. By the Act which was passed in March last, the fourth period of unemployment insurance was extended so as to run for 50 weeks from the 2nd November last until 17th October next, covering the

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    summer and the beginning of the autumn, and providing for 44 weeks of covenanted or uncovenanted benefit in that period of 50 weeks. On October 18th, a new-benefit year begins running to the 15th of October, 1924, and in that benefit year 26 weeks of covenanted or uncovenanted benefit will be available. Though that is true, the purely uncovenanted benefit cannot be run off without an interval of three weeks. Twelve weeks can be taken on end, then there is a period of three weeks gap and then the remaining 14 weeks. That, I think indicates that there is provision up to the middle of October, and then from the middle of October onwards, at any rate, to the end of April.
    While I am dealing with the question of the Unemployment Insurance Act, I wish to emphasise two points. First, I take this opportunity, as I take all other opportunities, of repeating that I cannot accept the word "dole" in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Acts. The implication of the word "dole" is that it is a State payment. So far from that being the case, the Unemployment Insurance Act is a sound contributory scheme, and for the last 12 months the income, which was no less a figure than £49,000,000, was made up in the following proportions: £19,000,000 from the employers, £17,000,000 from the workers themselves, and only £13,000,000 from the State. In other words, in this partnership of employers, workers, and the State, the State, so far from being sole proprietor, is merely the junior partner. We are sometimes told that the scheme is Socialistic. I suggest it is a splendid example of the organisation of our people on real self-help lines. Another attack made on the fund is that it is insolvent. We had many gloomy pictures in the Debates of last March We had voluble vaticinations, as gloomy as they were voluble, that we were piling up a great debt, and that the debt would go on mounting. What are the facts? On 9th March the amount of the borrowings was a little over £17,000,00. Now it stands at a little under £15,000,000. In other words, there has been a reduction of rather more than £2,000,000. It is true if unemployment difficulties arise during the coming winter we may have to increase the borrowings, but when a fund has a steady annual income of some-
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    thing like £50,000,000, if it occasionally has to borrow sums which it can readily repay when the unemployment figures fall, that is no justification whatever for suggesting that it is insolvent.
    The next main line of our policy in the past, as it will be in the future, is the stimulation of trade both home and foreign. We all agree that while financial provision is necessary along the lines of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, in order to prevent starvation, it is merely a palliative. What is wanted is work and normal work—employment for each man in his normal occupation and, if possible, at a normal wage. [HON. MEMBERS: "In his own district."] That also is normal. It may be unavoidable, but it is really a tragedy when the only work we can provide for a skilled engineer or an expert cotton weaver is heavy digging on the roads or at the docks. On that point there is no issue between any of us in this House. At the same time, it is far easier to indicate the right remedy than to provide it, at any rate on so large a scale as is desirable. The Government are fully alive to the desirability of using every effort to stimulate normal trade at home and abroad. So far the particular methods employed have been first what is known as the Export Credits Scheme and second the Trade Facilities Act. Under the Export Credits Scheme the objective aimed at is assistance to individual British traders by way of guarantee, in order to enable them to regain their position in foreign markets. Provided reasonable security is forthcoming in the country to which goods are consigned, the Board of Trade can guarantee up to 100 per cent. of the total involved with a right of recourse against the exporter up to 57½ per cent. Credits may be sanctioned up to £26,000,000 under the scheme and the whole of that has at one time or another been involved. At the moment the amount of credit actually in use is about £14,000,000. Therefore there is still an ample margin, and provision has been made under the Expiring Loans Continuance Bill for the continuance of the Overseas Trade Act, 1920.
    Secondly, there is the Trade Facilities Act. This Act, in my view, and the schemes which have been financed under it have proved one of the most successful and fertile portions of the Government programme. The bed rock of British

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    trade is British credit, and, thank Heaven, amid all our difficulties that rock of British credit stands firm and immovable. The policy of the Trade Facilities Act is to allow the credit of the British nation as a whole to come to the aid of, and to support, private trading concerns. Proposals for big new undertakings can be laid before the Committee, and I should like to express here, as I have done on previous occasions at this box, in the warmest terms, the thanks of the Government to that Committee for their admirable and skilful work, which has been of incalculable value in these difficult times, and which has the additional merit of being entirely voluntary and without remuneration. The Committee "vet" the schemes, and, if they are financially sound, the Government guarantee of principal and interest can be given, enabling the new undertaking to raise money, usually, of course, at a considerably cheaper rate than an undertaking can secure in the market without a guarantee. Such undertakings, when put in hand, obviously provide employment of the most satisfactory kind, because it is along normal channels. I think one of the best known examples was the earliest, namely, the extension of the Tube railway from Golders Green to Edgware, the enlarging of the City and South London Tube, and other improvements on the Underground Railway. For these, a guarantee up to £6,500,000 was given. Work commenced immediately, and some 10,000 men are employed directly as a result of that guarantee, and probably an equal number indirectly in the provision of engines, rails, and all that is required for railway extension. The late Government authorised guarantees up to £25,000,000 for such purposes, and I announced in November last that that sum would be extended to £50,000,000, and the present position is that the guarantees are being made use of up to about £26,000,000.
    Some recent instances of the employment of this method are the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, £2,300,000, and the Union Castle Company, £1,000,000. Both of these are for constructional work by Messrs. Harland and Wolff. The latter case is a good instance of the distribution of orders which results from a scheme of this kind. The hulls, it is
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    true, go to Belfast—special arrangements were made by the Northern Irish Government for that—but the rest of the equipment required is distributed over Ayrshire, Motherwell, Norwich, London, and other places. Then there is the great Southern Railway group, South-Eastern section, £5,500,000 for electrification; and so on. I hope that all those who control big industries in this country, acting in the spirit of the Prime Minister's exhortation at Glasgow, will set about putting in hand all the work they can, and I feel certain that the Trade Facilities Committee will give every assistance in their power to help in such new developments. The Government are contemplating further possibilities along this line of the development of normal trade, and I shall mention them in a moment, but I think I can explain them better, perhaps, when I say what I have to say in connection with the work of the local authorities. So much for two of the main lines of policy—first of all, the Unemployment Insurance Act, and, secondly, the stimulation of trade.
    In regard to relief works, here the House will desire something rather precise in the matter of figures. I am afraid, possibly, that the House may be some what tired of the reports I have had to give at this box, on more than one occasion, of the various kinds of work which have been or are being financed by the Government in co-operation with local authorities; but at the same time it is impossible to omit reference to them when I am endeavouring to describe our programme. I will endeavour, as shortly as possible, to explain, first of all, how the various plans for relief work, afforestation, and so on, stand at the moment; secondly, how the Government propose to extend and develop them during the coming winter; and, thirdly, I will say a word or two about the new lines of development to which I have already alluded. First of all, in regard to the Ministry of Transport, I mentioned, in speeches in November and February last, that provision was being made for over £11,000,000 worth of work, the schemes, of course, being financed usually on the basis of one-half by the Government and one-half by the local authorities. During the present financial year, it is estimated that the total expenditure on all programmes to date will reach £7,500,000, as against an expenditure of

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    about £4,500,000 last year. This represents approximately a full year's work for 27,000 men. The House will realise that this is a continuing programme over several years, and that the highest peak of employment under the programme will be realised in the winter, when it may attain something like 30,000 men. I can give details of these various schemes of the Ministry of Transport if desired, but I do not wish to weary the House with details.
    I am sorry that the South Lancashire road, which we had hoped would be pressed forward, has not seen the development which many of us anticipated, and it is regrettable that local difficulties still appear to impede the progress of the road. The money is available, and I hope the scheme may be pressed on and the local difficulties surmounted. With regard to the Glasgow-Edinburgh road, that is still under active consideration, and if work were commenced at the Glasgow end, a large number of unemployed might be engaged during the coming winter. The cost of putting in hand work at the Glasgow end would probably be something like £1,000,000, for one-half of which Government assistance would be required, and would be forthcoming, if the plan materialised. I need not perhaps emphasise again, what I have said at this box on more than one occasion, that this large programme of work for our arterial roads, extending over two or three years, is in addition to the ordinary programme of maintenance and repair work of the Ministry of Transport, which will continue, as last year, and will provide employment for a large number of men. Secondly, in regard to agricultural work, afforestation, and so on, last winter a considerable sum was set aside for work of this character, and the schemes contemplated have all been completed. For the coming winter we propose to make provision, generally on the lines familiar last year, for assisting land drainage, including water supply, and land improvement, but the exact extent of the financial provision is still under consideration, and I hope to be able to state that to the House later on. Provision will also be made for land drainage and improvement on the same lines as last winter in Scotland. As to afforestation, the Forestry Commissioners propose an increase of
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    their normal programme of planting and preparation, and additional work in Crown woods, and also assistance to corporations and individuals on the lines of last winter for afforestation work generally. Here again the exact extent of the financial provision has not yet been settled, and will be announced later.
    As to acceleration of Government work, the Post Office, which gave very practical help last year, are again initiating two very useful proposals, the first of which is trunk telephone cable laying. Plans are prepared which will involve an estimated cost of about £588,000, and 80 per cent. of the work will be completed by 31st March next. Then the Post Office London railway will be pressed on, at a cost of £500,000, and will secure opportunities for something like 900 unskilled men for 12 months. The railway, I am informed, is desirable as a means of relieving the congestion of traffic, and those of us who have to pass to and fro daily over the somewhat perilous crossing to enter this House will realise what the difficulties of London traffic are. As to the War Office, the Admiralty, and the Air Ministry, they are all considering plans for acceleration, and the Admiralty in particular, I am glad to say, are arranging to place orders, in anticipation of requirements for 1924–25, to the extent approximately of £500,000, nearly all of which will be expended in such areas as Barrow, Sheffield, and so on, where serious unemployment is rife. The Scottish Office are bringing forward schemes for improvements in Edinburgh and elsewhere, and the Colonial Office are also making efforts to accelerate the placing of orders. In addition, the Colonial Office have submitted schemes for the development of Crown Colony work in Nyasaland and Tanganyika. These Colonies are grant-aided, and are at present unable to contribute to the cost of the work. The following proposals have been authorised, namely, the construction of two steamers for the use of Nyasa and Tanganyika, at a joint cost of £70,000, and the extension of the Lindi Tramway, at a cost of £50,000, this plan being strongly supported by the Empire Cotton Growing Association. The financial assistance will take the form of loans free of interest, at any rate for a time, and the details are being settled between the Treasury and the Colonial Office.
    Lastly, the work of the Unemployment Grants Committee, or what used to be

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    known as Lord St. Davids' Committee. This is of a two-fold character, or, at any rate, it was last year. First of all, there were loans to local authorities, and secondly, there were direct grants up to 60 per cent. of the wages for schemes financed out of revenue. As to the latter, last year the Committee was authorised to make grants to a total of something between £500,000 and £750,000, which it was estimated would result in the provision of rather more than £2,000,000 worth of work. The Committee have authorised the expenditure so far of a little over £500,000, leaving about £190,000 available for further grants. It is proposed to add an additional £100,000 to this, and as a result I am informed that about £1,000,000 worth of work will be initiated during the coming winter. It is not anticipated that during the current financial year more money could be usefully so employed. Secondly, loans. As I announced in November and February last, the Government sanctioned first of all £12,000,000 worth of work and in addition, subsequently, a sum of £18,000,000, making, in all, £30,000,000 worth of work. The Committee have gone steadily on with their work, and schemes for practically the whole of the amount have been sanctioned.
    Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: Could the right hon. Gentleman say what sort of work this is going to be?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I mentioned a good many instances, when speaking in February, of the varieties of work which were undertaken in consequence of these schemes. Some are revenue-producing, and a great many are non-revenue producing, but they vary very much, from, I think, the provision of baths to the provision of burial grounds. If my right hon. Friend would like, I would supply him with particulars.
    Mr. WISE: May I ask from where the money comes?
    Sir M. BARLOW: The money is provided in this way. The loans are raised, and the State provides help varying in amount according as the scheme is revenue producing or non-revenue producing. If it is non-revenue producing the help is larger; if it is revenue producing, the help is smaller. The assistance is for a period of years, either
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    for half the interest, or rather more than half the interest plus charges, and the State portion of it is spread over a period of years, according to the currency of the loan.
    Mr. WISE: Only interest—not principal?
    Sir M. BARLOW: Only interest—not principal. As I have already indicated, the amount provided last year has already been expended, and the payments will continue for a period of years. If the House desires it, I can give the charge on the State.
    Sir F. BANBURY: When the right hon. Gentleman said that only the interest was guaranteed, surely he meant the principal as well—that portion which the State advances?
    Sir M. BARLOW: The interest is provided for either five or 15 years, and the way it works out is this. In respect of the £30,000,000, the charge on the State in 1922 was £400,000; in 1923 it will be £950,000; from 1924 to 1932 just over £1,000,000; and for 1933 to 1938, it drops to £380,000.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Does the guarantee then terminate?
    Sir M. BARLOW: The loan is raised by the local authorities, and the State gives so much by way of interest, as I will indicate in a moment. That is the old policy which has been going on for years. The Government propose to make new financial provisions for work during the coming winter. As before, the cost, both on local and central funds, will be spread over a period of years, varying, so far as central funds are concerned, according to whether the scheme is a revenue or a non-revenue producing one. Let me clear this point up, if I may. In the case of revenue-producing schemes, the Government undertook last year—the policy is the same this year—to bear 50 per cent. of the interest charges for five years. In the case of non-revenue producing schemes, the Government undertook 65 per cent. of the interest and sinking fund charges, for half the period of the loan, to the maximum of 15 years. Lord St. Davids' Committee has had money placed in their hands on this plan, I believe I am right in saying, for the

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    last two, if not three, winters. They have had experience, therefore, of the working of this scheme.
    I will give one or two facts which have emerged. First of all, in many areas? where unemployment is severe, such, for instance—to take only one or two—as the Tyneside or the Clyde, the assistance which can be looked for from schemes of local relief work is very often limited. In other words, you may have a large area of unemployment, but yet no great road or dock proposals available at convenient distances. The only real assistance, as I have mentioned already, that you can give skilled men is occupation in their own trade, and rough work on roads is a very ineffective substitute for ordinary skilled employment. That was one of the first points which emerged as a result of the experience of Lord St. Davids' Committee. Secondly, the classification into revenue and non-revenue producing schemes was not quite satisfactory. Many local authorities had schemes in contemplation which, though they might eventually be revenue-producing, might not achieve any such results for a number of years. Thirdly, there are a considerable number of statutory corporations or even private companies engaged in very similar work, such as the provision of tramway facilities, lighting, docks, and so on, who could give opportunities for employment if some assistance were forthcoming. With a view to meeting these three difficulties which I have indicated, and which have emerged as a result of past experience, the Government have determined to launch a new method of financial co-operation, intermediate between what we call the revenue-producing and the non-revenue-producing proposals. The financial basis of this intermediate arrangement will be a grant equal to 50 per cent. of the interest on loans raised for a period of not less than 10 years.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: That is the Circular of the 6th July?
    Sir M. BARLOW: Yes. The grants will continue for the period of the loan, or for 15 years, whichever is the shorter. That is all laid down in the circular letter of the 6th July, to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite has referred. The Government believe, or, at any rate, hope, that this intermediate proposal will I
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    offer very real financial assistance to meet all the three cases of difficulty I have mentioned. The actuarial calculations will vary, of course, in different cases, but the terms I have outlined will mean assistance to the extent of something like 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. of the whole cost. I will endeavour to indicate how these intermediate proposals will be of assistance in the three cases of difficulty I have mentioned. The terms offered should be a real help to local authorities in launching work such as tramways, electricity, and so on, all over the country.
    What will be the result? Orders, we hope, will be placed, and trade stimulated along normal lines in the big manufacturing and industrial centres where unemployment is the worst. Sheffield or Manchester, for instance, should at once feel the stimulus of orders for steel rails placed, say, by Bournemouth or Cheltenham, and not only is employment thereby secured for the skilled workmen along normal lines, but we escape, so to speak, from the tyranny of limited local opportunity. Local areas, with comparatively little unemployment, but need for greater public utilities, can come to the aid of the industrial centres, by placing their orders along these lines. Secondly, the Government hope that local authorities will appreciate the terms offered as a real assistance towards local development, and in the same way, but subject to proper precautions, corporations and private companies operating public facilities may be equally stimulated to provide work with the assistance indicated.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent? He says the assistance to local authorities is so much better as compared with grants made for revenue-producing purposes under the old scheme.
    Sir M. BARLOW: I have not the exact figures by me at the moment, but I could supply them to my hon. Friend, I have no doubt. My recollection is that it is about twice as much, and more than twice as much, rather than less. I was indicating that corporations and private companies operating public facilities may be stimulated to provide work also It will, of course, be necessary to lay down careful limitations. The invita-

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    tion to undertake work on this intermediate basis would, of course, go to local authorities, but, in addition, it would go to statutory bodies, such as a board or trustees, who undertake work in pursuance of statutory powers, not being a body trading for profit, and even to trading companies and private concerns, such as those carrying on, as I have already indicated, tramways, gas, electricity or docks. But while the Government desire that companies and corporations of this kind should receive reasonable financial assistance, clearly it is desirable that proper conditions should be laid down so as to secure that no unfair advantage is taken of the State assistance, and the Unemployment Grants Committee will accordingly be authorised to make the necessary conditions in each case to secure this result. The Government have already issued, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite indicated, two Circulars to local authorities, dated respectively 18th May and 6th July, inviting schemes along these lines, and though it is true that local authorities, probably, have not yet had time to submit all their schemes—certainly not in reply to the Circular of 6th July—still proposals amounting to several millions have already been submitted.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: How many?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I have not the exact figures, but several, I know. Further, the Unemployed Grants Committee will now be prepared to receive proposals from corporations or companies along the lines I have mentioned, but it cannot at present be estimated how far the Government proposals under this head are likely to be taken up. In view of all these considerations, the Government propose to make provision for schemes submitted by local authorities and statutory bodies, if sanctioned by the Unemployment Grants Committee, up to £10,000,000. As regards proposals from private companies, the extent of the financial provision to be made will be matter for further consideration, and the Government must be guided, to some extent, by the nature and amount of the applications received under this head, and which at present it is very difficult to estimate.
    Mr. HANNON: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate a figure?
    Sir M. BARLOW: At the present moment, no. The extent of the Government commitment is still a matter for consideration.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: Does he mean £10,000,000 in capital, or up to £10,00,000.
    Sir M. BARLOW: Up to £10,000,000. That will be the whole amount of the capital, and, as I have already explained, there will be three ways in which the Government will assist with interest for varying purposes and varying amounts. In any case, so far as local authorities and statutory bodies are concerned, it is clearly desirable to give the maximum of encouragement to revenue-producing schemes, so that, as the result of all this large expenditure, the community may reap a harvest of productive and wealth-producing undertakings. It may be asked, What is the result of these proposals as worked out in employment per head? I have always been very careful about making statements as to the numbers likely to be employed by any of these schemes. I have the details here. I have summarised them with all the care in my power, and I think I am well within the mark when I say that at least 200,000 will be employed during the winter, as the result of these schemes directly, and at least another 100,000 indirectly, and I think it is quite likely that, after very careful calculation, these figures may be exceeded.
    Mr. HOPKINSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he has made any calculation as to the men thrown out of employment by the necessary taxation for running these schemes?
    Sir M. BARLOW: These schemes are made for the provision of employment, and we do not anticipate that the result will be to throw anybody out of employment. There is one matter to which I should like to refer; I cannot go into it at any length, but in a sentence I should like to mention the report of the King's Roll National Council in regard to the employment of disabled men. That report has just been presented, and I desire to express my great thanks to the National Council for the work they have done upon it, and not only so, but for the work they are doing throughout the country. It is very significant that while the figure of disabled men out of employ-

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    ment when they commenced their work was something like 65,000, it is now, on a conservative computation, not more than 40,000. I agree 40,000 too many! But at any rate, that shows a substantial reduction of 25,000 on the figures before the council commenced its work.
    In conclusion, I should like to make one or two general Observations. The Prime Minister, in his Northern tour, impressed upon all who have their hands, if I may say so, on the levers of business and industry, to, as it were, "get a move on." He suggested that they should call upon their resources and upon their imagination and anticipate the developments which they might be ordinarily contemplating in the next few years. I cordially re-echo that wish. In particular the Electricity Commissioners will be doing a service to the community if they can stimulate the progress of electricity development throughout the country. The railway companies, again, are now in possession of very large reserve funds running into some £130,000,000, compared with similar funds of about one quarter of that amount before the War. Now that the amalgamation schemes are complete the railway companies can render very ready help to the community in this time of trouble by utilising their large resources for necessary reconditioning, and also for the electrical developments which are becoming more and more necessary in many cases owing to the development of suburban traffic, and which must be undertaken at an early date.
    With regard to the scheme for the construction of new docks by the Port Authority at the Surrey Commercial Docks and at Tilbury, the House will be aware that financial assistance has been arranged for the raising of loans up to £4,500,000. The matter has been delayed by negotiation on details, but I am happy to be able to announce that these points have been finally settled this very morning. I am informed by the authorities of the Port of London that they hope that the first contract will be signed to-morrow, and that in any case the work will be commenced on both schemes before the winter is upon us. This will mean employment at first for V00, and ultimately for 4,000 men on the two schemes. As I mentioned at the com-
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    mencement of my speech, the Cabinet Committee will continue in Session. There are other possibilities which they are pressing on, such as plans for the development of railways in India and the House may be assured that the Government will make every effort and do all in their power to enable the Ship of State to sail successfully through the troubled waters of the coming winter. Personally I have no doubt that the patience, the courage and the determination of our people will see us through, as it has done in the past. Do not let us forget that in taking the longer view there are elements of hopefulness which we must not neglect. The reports indicate that the world this autumn will secure such an abundant harvest as to constitute probably a record. The peace at Lausanne itself will, we all hope, do something to re-establish our trade in the Levant. Such a result will be a real boon to our trade, and particularly to the textile industries. And in this connection the fact that the Indian monsoon is not unsatisfactory will, we may hope, stabilise and stimulate our trade in Eastern markets. In one last word, let me express my thanks to the House for their courtesy in listening to me in a recital of what I am afraid is rather dull detail; I would only express my conviction that after all is said and done—something like 40 per cent. of our trade before the War was done with European countries—the ultimate solution of the unemployment problem in Great Britain will depend very largely, in my view, on what we all desire to secure, namely, the restoration of industrial and economic peace in Europe.
    Sir F. BANBURY: There is just one question I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman. Will he circulate to the House as a White Paper figures of the amounts of the interest guaranteed up to the present time, and the interest that is going to be guaranteed in the future, with the amount of the Sinking Fund guarantee and any principal that has been guaranteed?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I will consider that carefully. Clearly it cannot be done in relation to future schemes before they have been approved by the Committee so far as concerns the 10 millions. As

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    far as past schemes are concerned, I think there should be less difficulty. But I will look into it.
    Sir F. BANBURY: What I want to know is, what are the liabilities to which we are committed?
    Sir M. BARLOW: Quite; and I will look into the matter.
    Mr. H. M. BUTLER: There is an old proverb which says that a question properly asked is half-answered. I do not think that a new Member ought to take up the time of the House simply in order to make a maiden speech, but we have heard a great deal as to the various remedies for unemployment. I do not think we have had a careful and reasoned statement as to what are the real causes of unemployment. As I have been actively engaged in the iron and steel engineering industry for nearly 50 years, following on my ancestors, one of whom established the business in 1779. I commenced on the 1st January, 1875, in the business. I trust what I am going to say on this question may be helpful, especially as I went through that awful time of the "eighties." The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) twice, I think, referred to the depression of the "eighties," and he expressed the opinion that probably things were as bad as recently. What enabled us to get through that severe time was extraordinarily cheap food and cheap coal. We were for 40 weeks in the "eighties" in deep water. In the short time that I will trespass on the House I am going to give a few causes of unemployment which have come under my own personal observation. Six large works in the Leeds area which manufacture wrought iron has been closed down in my time owing to the introduction of steel. That brought about a large amount of unemployment. They did not all shut down together, but, at any rate, the introduction of steel brought about unemployment in the wrought iron trade, because it takes four times as many men to produce a ton of wrought iron as it does to produce a ton of steel.
    Secondly, following on that experience since the Armistice, the eight hours' question has been forced on the iron industry, and, I think, the steel workers with the result that we had large works which had to discontinue the production of
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    wrought iron, because it was impossible to carry on under the eight hours' system. I am not blaming the Federation of Iron and Steel Workers for it, but a large amount of unemployment was the result for which we as employers were in no way responsible. Thirdly, in our area there is a very good colliery which, it is true, was getting to the far end, but which the owners were anxious to continue working, and which had men there who had been employed all their lives at the place, and who were willing to help the employers by accepting a lower wage. The Miners' Union would not allow it to be done, and the pits had to close. We were sorry for that, because it was such exceedingly good coal, but a very large number of people were thrown out. I am not blaming the Miners' Union. It may be that, so far as they were con cerned, they were working in the interests of the miners throughout the whole country, and that they were right in not allowing these men in Leeds to work below the standard rate. But the result of their action was to produce unemployment for which the employers were in no way responsible. The Miners' Union must accept that responsibility.
    Fourthly, during my business career unemployment has been produced, to a certain extent, by the introduction of machinery, a point to which the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) referred. It is inevitable There is a firm manufacturing a motor-road sweeper, a very expensive machine, but a most efficient one. It does away with all the men, or most, who are now sweeping the roads. If public authorities can each order one or two of these road sweepers, that firm, employing 500 hands now, will keep going for the next five, six, or 10 years in providing these machines. The Ministry of Transport should take up this matter and see whether or not the men thrown out of work as the result of the employment of these machines by the local authorities on the roads can be employed in making the new roads about which we hear so much. A very great deal might be done to help in this way.
    6.0 P.M.
    Fifthly, here is a point which has never been sufficiently touched upon. I should like to know from the Minister of Labour if he can tell us the number of workpeople engaged in the manufacture of munitions before the War, and the number that are

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    now engaged. I am inclined to think that many hundreds of thousands of men have been thrown out of employment as a result of the adoption of the policy of curtailing the manufacture of munitions. There again, if the country adopts a policy of peace at any price, and hundreds of thousands of men are thrown out of employment in consequence, hon. Members opposite must not turn round upon us and say that the employers are to blame for that. I ask the Minister of Labour whether he cannot have this question looked into in order to see how many were employed in that way before the War and how many are so employed at the present time.
    Sixthly, I want to refer to the Slough dump, a matter in which the motor industry of this country is greatly affected. The result of bringing back over 80,000 motor vans from the Front to the Slough depot threw out of employment tens of thousands of people in the engineering industry. A great deal of unemployment is brought about by action of that kind. Seventhly, here is another question which has not been sufficiently dealt with, and that is the introduction of female labour which appears to have taken place to an increasing extent. I am not criticising that policy in any way, but I should like to know from the Minister of Labour if he can say how many women were engaged in industries before the War, and how many are engaged now. In my own area, as a result of the War, I know that in many works there is employed at the present time a very greatly increased number of women, many more than were employed before the War, and this must have some effect in throwing men out of employment.
    Eighthly, high taxation has been referred to very often in connection with these discussions, but I should like to ask how many gardeners, estate carpenters and men employed usually about country estates, and men servants of all kinds have been thrown out of employment as a result of the high taxation of country residences. I am sure there must be hundreds of thousands. All these men have been trained for a particular kind of work, and now they have to find a living in some other way. Another great cause of unemployment is hostile tariffs. Here I am going to give this question a
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    personal touch to which I hope the House will not take exception. During my business career the business of my firm has been forced out of Russia, Germany, Austria and the United States by hostile tariffs, and even in recent years we have been forced out of Canadian and Australian markets for the same reason. I can assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that the whole of my active, hardworking life has been spent in trying to get new customers for those we have lost as a result of hostile tariffs. I am not finding fault with that, and I am not suggesting any reversal of our fiscal system. I was brought up politically under Disraeli and the late Lord Salisbury, and they always told us that we should have to make the best of it, and that it was impossible to reverse our fiscal system.
    I believe such a policy is equally impracticable to-day, but I do not see any reason why we should not adopt an all-round small general tariff on the whole of our imports. I know I must be careful not to transgress the rules of debate, but still I am glad that I have got that point in, and I hope that it will strike home. A small all-round general tariff is not Protection at all, and I am sure that it would go a long way to produce revenue and would also assist our industries. I have enumerated some of the causes which have produced unemployment, and I suppose that I ought now to make some little effort to throw out suggestions as to how those difficulties can be met. In the course of the exhaustive speech made by the Minister of Labour we have heard so much of these questions, as well as in the Debates which have taken place before, that there is not much more to say. I should just like to emphasise my strong conviction that it is only by the individual initiative and enterprise of those who like myself are engaged in industry that we shall have to look for a cure of this trouble.
    The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley seemed to ridicule the suggested effect that would be produced by an electrification of the railway system of this country. I would like to say that one of the most prosperous periods in the engineering industry was that during which all the principal city councils and public bodies were electrifying the tramways. During that period I believe that about £100,000,000 was spent on the

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    electrification of the tramway system of this country in three or four years. That gave an extraordinary impetus to the engineering industry, and they were the most prosperous years in that industry. As a business man with practical experience, I have no hesitation in saying that, if the electrification of the main railway system of this country was seriously tackled, it would give an immense impetus to the engineering trade of this country. We have to bear in mind that that would be a great stimulus applied to a skilled trade which is not sufficiently and adequately met by the various schemes which the Government have brought forward.
    The establishment of new industries is another direction in which we can also help this problem. A new industry has been established in Leeds recently for the canning of fish. A large factory has been established in Leeds, employing a considerable number of people, and only last week I have taken practical steps to help a capitalist to establish a new industry for the production of imitation marble. The production of wrought iron was seriously affected by the introduction of the eight hours' system. Similar efforts to those which I have described in regard to new industries are being made in all our great industrial areas. May I emphasise that, above everything else, what is necessary to get us over our troubles is loyal co-operation between employers and their workmen? It is only by employers and workpeople joining together and pulling together that we shall eventually get round the corner. That is the kind of spirit which has always operated with my brothers and myself and my forefathers in the business which we have carried on for hundreds of years, and which has enabled us to get over our difficulties and start on new inventions.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The hon. Member who has just sat down has made a very lucid and plucky maiden speech. With the concluding portion of that speech no one will disagree, but the other parts of it are rather controversial, and I hope he will not consider it disrespectful on my part if I do not examine it in detail, because that would leave me very little time to deal with the speech of the Minister of Labour. I need not tell the Minister that we all sympathise with him
    1578
    in his task, and I can assure him that hon. Members in all parts of the House will assist him and strengthen his hands in every way in the work which lies before him. I think the temper and the tone of the speech of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley is the best witness of that fact. We may not agree with all the hon. Member's conclusions, but I think the Minister of Labour himself did no less than justice to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley in paying a tribute to the character of his speech.
    The course of the unemployment figures this year are both disappointing and disquieting. At the end of last September the number of persons registered as wholly unemployed was 1,319,912. According to the latest figures up to yesterday week the 23rd of July the figures are 1,184,900. That is by no means as good as I personally had hoped for and expected. Last year I made a number of very careful calculations as to the probable course of these figures, assuming there was no serious dislocation of trade at home or abroad, and I certainly expected to see them down to at least 1,000,000 before the middle of this year, with further reductions until we begin to come round into the seasonal depression, as we shall do about the end of October. I thought we might possibly have to carry on the register a million wholly unemployed during next winter, but, as things stand, unless there is a very big change, it seems to me we shall find ourselves carrying at least 1,250,000 persons, and probably more. This is the fourth winter of grave industrial depression. It would be very difficult to overstate the gravity of the situation. In the winter 1920–21, the first winter of the depression, there was by way of supplement to the unemployed insurance benefit a good deal of trade union out-of-work benefit. These resources had not been exhausted, and the Unemployment Insurance benefit was really by way of supplement to the other sources. That was less true of the second winter, 1921–22. It was not true at all of the third winter, 1922–23, and it is not going to be true of the winter now before us.
    Further it must be remembered that the long period of depression has hit many boards of guardians very severely indeed, and especially those that have been under the weather the whole time.

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    I have no doubt they will take note of the fact that certain loans are to be granted henceforth without interest, and in view of the situation as it exists that concession will be required. Many of them are very heavily in debt and it is going to be far more difficult—I know they will do their best as they have done throughout this long period—in view of the great strain caused by the heavy burden of debt in these areas to find relief works for unemployed persons in this forthcoming winter than previously. This is no less true of municipal relief works. The municipalities, with great patriotism, have been bringing forward and putting into operation schemes which have been financed by the Government. They have been doing that ever since the fall of 1920, but the continued depression will make it still more difficult to finance these schemes. It will be very difficult too to find public utility relief works, or any schemes at all.
    I am sorry the Minister of Labour is not here, but I hope the hon. Gentleman who represents him on that bench at the moment will convey to him what I am saying. We listened naturally to his statement as to the provision being made for the coming winter with very great interest, and particularly so with regard to the schemes which the municipalities are invited once more to put forward in order to mitigate the difficulties of the problem. The Minister of Labour was careful to say that this was his "first edition "—he did not actually use that phrase, but it conveys what he meant. I may say it will have to be very considerably added to. I am not going to say anything in a partisan spirit about this matter. I know too well the worries and anxieties of the man upon whose shoulders the burden rests, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Cabinet that this first edition is not going to carry us through this coming winter, and he will have to appeal again and again to the Cabinet and to the Treasury to give what assistance is required to meet the situation. He, necessarily more than anyone else, knows the truth of the situation. The returns he receives week by week show him what districts will be most acutely hit—the districts where there has been great unemployment from the very beginning.
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    I notice the right hon. Gentleman has just returned to the House. Perhaps I may be allowed to repeat my question. I was suggesting that his first edition, as I have described it, will have to be considerably added to. No one knows that better than he does. He sent out a Circular on 6th July to municipalities, in which he stated, and correctly so, that to put up new schemes of work was better than paying the dole. In passing, may I say, I was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) using the word "dole" in the way he did, particularly when three-fourths of the money comes from other than public sources, a large share being contributed by the workmen themselves. My right hon. Friend has asked the Municipalities to send up some new schemes, and in his Circular of 6th July he suggested that preliminary proposals should be submitted in rough outline as soon as possible, and in any event not later than by the end of the current month. I want to ask the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied with the replies he has received to that Circular. He did not tell us. He said nothing about the response. I am not blaming municipalities that have not sent replies in. They have been acting in the most patriotic way during the whole period of depression, but is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the response to this Circular of 6th July? If not, let him tell us so, and we will give him all the assistance we can. His is a very grave and anxious responsibility.
    The best point about his statement was the proposal, a novel one as far as actual accomplishment is concerned, that private enterprise should have assistance. In that respect it is going to do a lot of good, but as regards municipal work I again ask the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied with the response of the municipalities to his invitation of 6th July to send up in rough outline schemes before the end of this month. If not, I should strongly recommend the right hon. Gentleman to say so in order that we may come to his assistance if necessary. Another point to which I must refer in this matter of financing work as a better expediency than the granting of relief—a view which I believe is shared in all quarters of the House and by people themselves who are out of work—is that on the 11th July the Prime Minister, in a written

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    reply to a question which I had asked with regard to railway electrification, said:
    "Electrification schemes are in progress on the suburban lines of the Southern Railway; extensions and improvements are being carried out on the London Electric and City and South London lines; further powers for considerable extensions of the underground companies' lines are being sought by Bills of the present Session; and other railway companies are understood to be considering the question of electrification, especially in relation to the suburban areas served by them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th July, 1923; col. 1371, Vol. 166.]
    That sort of work is extremely valuable. It gives employment to skilled men, whereas municipal public utility relief work is broadly pick-and-shovel work which can be done by unskilled men. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this policy of railway electrification is being carried out to the extent it ought to be in view of what may be the position in the coining winter? The speech of the Prime Minister at Glasgow has been referred to twice. The precise words the right hon. Gentleman used in a speech on 26th July are the ones I would like to quote now. The right hon. Gentleman said:
    "This is a time when any man, any firm, any company that is contemplating capital works of any kind will be rendering a great service to the community by getting on with these works instead of postponing them."
    I desire to support that appeal with all the emphasis I can put behind my words. He who gives quickly to-day gives a good deal more than twice, in my judgment. I should like to ask for some further facts about the Export Credits Scheme and the Trade Facilities Act—as to the operation of both of these. I observe my right hon. Friend said that under the Export Credits Scheme there was a sum of £14,000,000 in use at this time. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) gave up office, we had guaranteed credits up to the amount of £22,000,000. Therefore a good deal of that must have been wiped off the slate. I shall be glad to be told how much credit has been guaranteed under the Export Credits Scheme during the year 1923. The figure of £14,000,000, which has been quoted, does not help us. We want to know how much was sanctioned and issued in 1923. Then I come to what has
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    been done under the Trade Facilities Act. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs left office, we had guaranteed loans under that Act up to £22,000,000. The Minister of Labour paid a very fine tribute to the effect of this Trade Facilities Act, and said the full amount for loans guaranteed was £26,000,000. That, apparently, would show that only about £4,000,000 of loan has been guaranteed during 1923. It may be that my original figures are wrong. But if they are not, all I can say is, that you will not solve this problem in that way. I am satisfied you will have to go ahead far more than this with this fourth winter of continuous depression before you. After the tribute paid by the Minister of Labour to schemes under this Act, it is very much to be regretted if, as I gather, only apparently £4,000,000 of loans or new guarantees have been issued during the year 1923. I hope I am wrong.
    I listened with great interest to the appeal of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley for a loan of £100,000,000 to start great schemes of development. It is no good crying over spilt milk, but I am profoundly sorry—and I am glad to see my right hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, although he was by no means responsible—that, when the Government saw there was going to be a surplus of £101,000,000 out of last year's Budget, my right hon. Friend did not come to the House of Commons and take the directions of the House as to the best way to apply that surplus. I know that under the Finance Act, 1920, it automatically went to the Sinking Fund, but the amount was so unusual and so great, and the situation in which we found ourselves was so difficult, that I think the Government ought to have come to the House of Commons and asked for directions, and, indeed, ought to have suggested to us that that £101,000,000 of surplus ought to be diverted from the Sinking Fund to the development of great schemes of the kind referred to by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. There are in the air great schemes of electrical power development and great schemes for arterial main roads, there are large schemes of afforestation, land reclamation, and so on; and it is a thousand pities that the Government did not get authority not to let that money go to the

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    Sinking Fund, as it does, I agree, under the law, but to apply it to the development of works like these, because that would be an enormous advantage to these men who are unemployed.
    There are men to-day who have been tramping the streets, through no fault of their own, during a very great deal of this long period. Their morale must be seriously undermined. It is no good saying that the dole demoralises; what demoralises is being out of work. How many of us would not lose the incentive and the desire for regular occupation if we were out of it for a long, continuous period? That is what is happening in this country. All these large numbers of men have been so long unemployed as to have got their tails down, and to have begun to lose the incentive for regular employment. That £101,000,000 would have been very useful there, and so would the £100,000,000 loan which my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley suggested. It is to the Minister of Labour that I look. I know his zeal, I know his enthusiasm, I know his desire in this matter, and it is to him that I look to keep the Government up to the scratch in this matter, to see that this thing is done adequately and properly, and to get all the encouragement he can in the winter before us for the putting up of work by anyone, rather than giving mere money relief to these poor men.
    I have kept the House quite long enough, but there are two other things that I want quite briefly to say, and I am glad to see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department is here. The first thing I want to say is that I am profoundly disappointed with the very poor and meagre operations under the Empire Settlement Act. We passed that Act in May of last year, and it put the whole problem of emigration on to an entirely new and better plane. We put into that Act £1,500,000 to be spent during the last financial year, and £3,000,000 to be spent in each of the 15 succeeding years. The sequel is very disappointing. Let me read quite shortly part of a written answer which my hon. and gallant Friend gave to me on the 29th June, and I will ask the House to follow these facts:
    "Up to date the total number of persons accepted under these schemes is 24,104, of
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    whom 19,170 have already proceeded overseas. The Empire Settlement Act did not come into operation until June, 1922, and the total expenditure under the Act during the financial year 1922–23 was £35,000."
    That is less than one-fortieth of the provision which Parliament made for the operation of this scheme last year, and provision has been made for £3,000,000 to be spent in the current financial year and in each of the 14 succeeding years. I will continue my quotation:
    "In the Estimates for the current financial year, £1,186,200 is provided for the purposes of the Act. Of this sum the actual amount expended to date is £49,000. and the total commitment under the various assisted passage schemes is £173,000."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th June, 1923; col. 2722, Vol. 165.]
    Of course, I know that this has got to be done in cordial co-operation and consultation with the Overseas Dominions, and I have only half the parties here. I know that, and, therefore, I cannot, when I express disappointment, as I do—and I have no doubt that it is shared on the Government Bench—forget that I have not the whole picture before me; but let us look at the situation, and let everyone realise that, if this be not done at once, it cannot be done at all. There are at this moment 300,000 young fellows under 30 years of age in this country who are unemployed. Many of them have been unemployed for long periods, and many of them are men who bought redemption for us in the grim struggle of 1914–18. There they are. They are still hardy and fit and enduring, but they are drifting rapidly, and, if you do not let them take this tide, there is nothing before them but failure. That is really not fair, considering what they did for us, and we really ought to do something better for them. I call it a tragedy when these men's opportunity is slipping from them, as it is. It is no good talking to them in five years' time, or thereabouts, about overseas settlement. They will not be fit for it then, and there will be nothing before them but failure. Here is the practical certainty of health and strength and vigour for these men in the open parts of the British Empire. The Imperial Conference is to be held this year. Need I ask the Government to put all sincerity and determination behind the discussion of this problem then, and to give these men the chance that they so well deserve?

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    I only want to say one thing more. My right hon. Friend referred to the King's Roll for the employment of disabled men. That has been our great instrument for getting these men employment. We have said, and hon. Members have helped us in all parte of the country by saying it in their constituencies, "You retain 5 per cent. of your places for disabled ex-service men, and we will write the name of your firm on this roll of honour." The thing was being done admirably by the local Employment Committees of the Ministry of Labour, and my right hon. Friend knows that last year a Select Committee of this House, the Chairman of which, the hon. and gallant Member for Fareham (Sir J. Davidson), is sitting opposite to me now, made a new start and suggested the appointment of local committees under the presidency of the Lord Mayors, Mayors, Lord Provosts and Provosts, as the case may be, with a National Council, the presidency of which, as the House has heard with pleasure, has been undertaken by Lord Haig. They have worked for six months, and have done very well, and I wish to pay a tribute to them now. I see by the White Paper issued yesterday, to which the Minister of Labour referred, that there are 27,890 firms on the Roll who have given the undertaking; but there are at least 20,000 firms in this country who are not on the Roll and who ought to be on the Roll. There are 40,000 disabled men out of a job to-day. If those firms each took one man, half the job would be done; and if the local authorities throughout the country—many of whom are not doing their duty in this matter—each took another one, the job would be very easily completed. I only mention that to encourage the new King's Roll local committees, their presidents, and their national council, to continue the good work which they have been doing so admirably and so well for the last six months, and to wish them God-speed in their efforts.
    Mr. WEBB: I think I can shorten the remarks with which I shall trouble the House by saying that the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has expressed a great deal of what I should have attempted to say. I could not help feeling, when the Minister was explaining So clearly how much had been done under the various schemes this year for dealing
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    with the problem of unemployment, that, while all that had been done, the net result had been to leave this million and a quarter unprovided for. I do not say that by way of blame, or even criticism, but I do think it compels the House to realise that, great as have been the exertions of the successive Ministers of Labour, the result of those exertions has been extremely regrettable, in that it leaves still over a million people not provided for in any satisfactory way; because, although the unemployment insurance scheme has been of valuable assistance—Heaven knows where we should have been without that stand-by!—I do not think that anyone would consider the mere receipt week after week of unemployment benefit to be at all an adequate or a proper or a safe way of providing for those who are unemployed. The fact that these men and women and young people have contributed something towards that dole does not make it cease to have bad effects, or cease to be a dole. The fact that employers and the State have contributed something towards it does not make that money payment any the less harmful. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) has said, it is being out of work that is the demoralising thing, and being hungry also. If the unemployment benefit stops the worst of the physical deterioration, it does practically nothing to stop the moral deterioration that is going our and, unfortunately, it is inadequate even to stop the physical deterioration.
    The effort that the Minister of Labour has made, great as it has been, during the past year and the previous year, has left a million people still unprovided for. All these trade facilities schemes and export credit schemes, all the acceleration of the work of Government Departments and municipalities, and all the relief work—and it is very little better than the Poor Law—all these things which have been done still leave a million men and women unprovided for. It is tragic, when one comes to think of it that the greater part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech each year relates to what is going to be done for 100,000, or, at most, 200,000, men. I do not want to belittle it; it is a tremendous gain that so much should be done; but, surely, we ought to view it in perspective—we ought

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    to view it against the total. How can we justify doing this for 100,000 or 200,000 men, inadequate as it is, and refusing it to the other 1,000,000, who are no worse, who are no more guilty, and who are no less a part of the citizenship on whom we depend for the future? Reinforcing all that I could have said on that point the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell put it very much more forcibly and very much more incisively than I could possibly have put it. What are we going to do about this during the coming winter? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell is beginning to feel un easy—it is evident that he is very much more uneasy than he was a year ago.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: This is the fourth winter.
    Mr. WEBB: I was going to do the Minister the same justice and say that I have no doubt that he, too, is very much more uneasy with regard to this fourth winter. This fourth winter faces these people with their resources exhausted. There is a very pregnant phrase in the, memorial of what we call the industrial group on that point. They say they are looking forward with dismay to one of the great unions with which that group is very largely concerned being absolutely disintegrated by, as they say, another year of such unemployment as we have been having. They—this industrial group, the members of which do not sympathise with me in my opinions at all—look upon the possible disintegration of this great trade union, and the dispersal of its resources and its organisation, as a menacing fact, which they beg the Government to avert by the, proposals which they have put before the Cabinet. I was hoping that we should have heard from the right hon. Gentleman the decision of the Cabinet upon these proposals, but we have not heard it, or, at least, I cannot think we have heard it, because all we have heard amounts to a complete negative of the proposals which have been put before the Government in so influential a way. It is quite true that those proposals are only a repetition of the proposals which have been put forward in detail from this side of the House. Here is the Labour policy on unemployment, which was published in January, 1921, and which set forth the
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    extension of the development of railways, waterways, docks and other works of the kind, all set forth in the report of the industrial group to the Government. That has all been put forward. It is known of course to the Labour Ministry though unfortunately we have never been able to induce hon. Members to believe we have anything like so detailed a programme. This is 45 pages of print. I do not suppose hon. Members will read it. It is of no great importance that they should read it now, because the same proposals are now being put forward by the industrial group of Members, who have business experience, who have financial knowledge, who cannot be guilty of any wild-cat proposals and who, certainly, are not biassed in favour of Socialism or anything of that sort, and they, of course, are not aware that it is Socialism. We will not discuss whether it is or not, but when the proposals come before the Cabinet which are pushed in the House by the industrial group, we of the Labour party may very well be contented to be silent on the matter and merely to support the hon. Members who press these things on the Government, if they will press them.
    I hoped we were going to have the decision of the Cabinet upon those proposals. If we have had the decision of the Cabinet in the words of the right hon. Gentleman, I can only regret that the industrial group has had no more effect on the Government, because the decision of the Cabinet is practically a direct negative. I do not say the Cabinet have not some justification. For instance, these hon. Members proposed the electrification of the railways and suggested apparently that that should be done with considerable help from the Government, I gathered from the Minister that he entirely agreed with electrification of the railways, but he emphasised the fact that the railway companies had something like £120,000,000. Of that sum £60,000,000 was paid to the companies by the Government. That £120,000,000 has not been spent. It is actually in hand, and when the £60,000,000 was paid to them by the Government, I understand it was paid in order that it might be spent in putting the railways in a fit state to cope with the traffic for which they were preparing. I sympathise with the Minister in saying

    1589
    that work ought to be done at the expense of the railway companies, and I would ask whether it is not possible for the Government to make representations to the railway companies to ask that they should put this work in hand with the least possible delay. It is not enough to talk' about schemes for electrifying suburban traffic on the southern lines and other lines. Surely there are larger schemes for electrification of large stretches of the main line which have been under the consideration of the companies, which the companies know will be profitable to them, and which might be put in hand if only the Government would exercise the influence which it is entitled to exercise upon the railway companies, and more entitled than ever in view of the fact that £60,000,000 of this £120,000,000 has actually been provided out of public funds for the express purpose of putting the railways in order.
    That is the biggest part of the scheme of the industrial group, and I should have been glad if the Minister had been able to give us the decision of the Cabinet with regard to that electrification. But there are other things. There is the proposal that municipalities should be encouraged to do work. The right hon. Gentleman has told us the municipalities have already been asked, months ago, to put work in hand, and to say what work they can put in hand. Unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last indicated, though he did not say—I say what he only indicated—that the responses have been extremely disappointing. They have not been able to bring themselves to propose any considerable amount of schemes of municipal work. In fact, the assistance offered to them by the Government has not been adequate to make them willing to undertake, with the present trade conditions, large municipal enterprises. Are we going to stop there? The Government is full of good intentions. It hopes the municipalities will take advantage of the offer and engage in these large works, but if the municipalities are not willing to do it are we going to rest there? I do not like to predict, but just as the optimistic programme of the Minister of Labour a year ago still left more than a million on the unemployed register for whom no work was provided, so I am afraid, if the Minister can do nothing more, this somewhat enlarged but
    1590
    not much enlarged programme which he puts forward this year will leave more than one million for whom no work is found. Are you going to be contented with that? What right have we as a matter of equity in doing this for one or two hundred thousand if at the same time we refuse it to the million? I suggest that the Government must really do something more. The Government must really manage to pass beyond the region of good intentions. If they ask what, there are a number of things which can be suggested. The industrial group will provide safe and sound schemes, warranted to work and warranted not to be socialistic.
    I will be more daring. I will not go into the domain of these industrial questions. I will ask, Why do they press the municipalities only to do revenue producing work, which apparently is wealth producing work? I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any such distinction with any validity. Why should it be a good thing at present to press forward tramways, electric works, or waterworks merely because the municipalities can levy the cost on all the inhabitants and so make them tax-producing enterprises—not necessarily wealth-producing but tax-producing enterprises? Why should that be any better than urging the municipalities to make up their arrears of school building, to make up their arrears even of public hospitals, or to go on with their arrears of houses? Why should not the municipalities have been pressed to do that? How is it that when Government Departments have been urged to put as much work in hand as possible, as they have more than once, by the Cabinet and when they are asked in different Circulars to apply as much of the expenditure of the next 10 years as can properly be applied and to put it in hand at once, how is it there is one Department which does not do that? The Ministry of Education does not send out that Circular and press local authorities to build the schools which are necessary. Why is that exception made? The Minister of Health does not send out Circulars and press local authorities to build the hospitals which are necessary. Why is that exception made? That would give the same amount of employment to those who have no work in the same beneficent way as electrifying the rail-

    1591
    ways or the making of roads. Apparently because those are not tax-producing enterprises.
    "Tax producing" is my own phrase. The Government phrase is "revenue producing." Local authorities are encouraged to undertake works which are revenue producing, but I point out that the revenue from water works is a tax. The revenue from a tramway is a tax. It is a monopoly profit which, if it yields a revenue, is in the nature of a tax. So equally with electricity. I do not want to lay any stress upon that. But what is the distinction? If the works are useful, if what is produced is a public service or is a utility or what is undertaken is work which must have been undertaken within the next few years, why exclude the immaterial services? And why does not the Ministry of Education press for the schools to be brought up to date and the libraries and all the rest of it? I can only imagine perhaps that it is not anticipated that we shall ever build these schools. Are we to suppose we are never going to get our schools up to date-never catch up the arrears of school building? If we are to do it in the next few years why not now, rather than two or three years hence? That has been the policy and why should an exception be made to that?
    What we would urge on this side is that the Government ought really to be undertaking ten times as much of this work, not necessarily through the local authorities but through the public utility authorities, or through any authorities it can. I am glad to have the support of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) in talking about £101,000,000 for expenditure. That £101,000,000 which he wished to divert was used in paying off debt. There is a large amount of capital crying for investment at this moment. The Government could borrow the £101,000,000 perfectly easily if it chose at rates which would be quite satisfactory. The money is there waiting. The money market is choked with capital. Recent issues have shown that it is. You could get £100,000,000 as soon as you like, and you could do the work that is required if there was any desire to do it, but apparently, for some reason, the Government will not do that.
    1592
    Passing from that—I cannot put it so forcibly as the right hon. Gentleman—I want to call attention to some particular things. First of all, I was responsible, before we adjourned last time, for directing the attention of the Minister of Labour to the condition of unemployed women. I can only repeat that once more. There are still, by his own admission, 211,000 adult women and 30,00G odd girls over 16—that means to say, a quarter of a million women—available for industry on his books, besides a large number more who are not on the books, unemployed. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) drew attention, in words which were not nearly strong enough for the facts, to the terrible danger of having a quarter of a million women, mostly young, unemployed and denied any adequate maintenance. Of course, hon. Members are afraid, I believe, to do much for the women because of the outcry that they are keeping them away from domestic service, but it must be possible for people to understand that these women—it has been proved over and over again—are unfit for domestic service. They are untrained for it. They would not be accepted by any mistress even if they wished to go, and what we urge is that training should be provided for them in domestic work in order to fit any of them who may be willing to take such situations, but at any rate to provide them with maintenance under training in order to save them from worse things. I am sorry to say the Minister has not been able during the past few months apparently to provide any of these training schemes for women. Some little has been done merely to continue one or two which were going on but nothing adequate to the need of the 250,000, or even a tenth of that, has been provided. I would ask, if we are going into a fourth winter of unemployment, when the stress upon these women will be as great as the stress upon the men, and when the numbers are going to increase, can we honestly be satisfied with making only the provision of the dole—12s.—for these women, or some of them, and cutting that off in too many cases, and providing them not only with no opportunity of employment whatever but not even the training which would fit them to take what employment could be found for them. I ask that these training centres for women should be established as soon as possible and should be ade-

    1593
    quate to provide for all the women below a certain age at any rate who are willing to go, and I should like to make it in a great many cases a condition of unemployment benefit that they should go and be trained.
    7.0 P.M.
    There was one phrase used by the Minister when he said that one of the things that went to his heart was to see the skilled worker out of work and unprovided for. He mentioned two, and I think it will be noticed that one was a skilled engineer, but the other was an expert cotton weaver. The expert cotton weaver is a woman, nine times out of ten. That is one of the trades where the women are, on the whole, more expert than the men, and very often earn more money on piece work. You cannot have a more highly-trained worker in all the world than the cotton weaver of Lancashire. They are out of work in large numbers. It is not to be suggested that they can be domestic servants, and yet there is nothing in the Minister's programme to deal with them. They are typical of 211,000 and more women for whom there is nothing in the Minister's programme at all. I cannot put it more forcibly than to say that a grave responsibility rests on the Government and on this House for these 200,000 women. It is not their fault-that they are unemployed, or that they have been diverted into industries that are not their proper career. They have no option, they have been trained, and have maintained themselves and very often a husband as well, but many are now widows. There they are, through no fault of their own, out of work for months and even years together, and the Government has no prospect or intention of anything for them beyond the dole; and be it remembered that the dole for a woman is not enough for her to live on, let alone the possibility of children.
    There is something even worse that the right hon. Member for North-West Camberwell mentioned. There are 67,000 young people between 16 and 21 unemployed. There are more than that as a matter of fact, but there is that number on the books. I do ask whether we cannot secure training centres sufficient to provide for all those, or at any rate for all those where they are not unduly dispersed. There is no difficulty,
    1594
    it has all been worked out, the local education authorities would do it at once if only money were found from the centre, and the money could surely be found in order to save this valuable material from going to the devil, as rapidly it must. You cannot have a young man or a young woman between 16 and 21 idle day after day, with insufficient food, no sort of adequate care and protection, with nothing whatever to do, without the greatest deterioration of character and the irreparable damage to what we can never replace. It does seem to me that in respect to the women the programme of the right hon. Gentleman was not only meagre and inadequate but absolutely wanting in statesmanship.
    About six months ago the then Prime Minister was good enough, at my suggestion, to appoint a Departmental Committee to consider the gaps in the provision between unemployment benefit, health insurance, war pensions, and the Poor Law, and also the gaps within each of those systems themselves. I, at any rate, was called as a witness, and I was able to show a very large number of gaps for which I did not blame the administration, but which arose out of the complications of the system under which different regulations were applied in different ways. There was quite a considerable number of cases that I was able to bring before that Committee to show that through the fault of no one in particular men were falling through these elaborate schemes and getting nothing. Other witnesses were called, and although I am not in a position to know their evidence, that Committee has gone on, but has not reported so far as I know. Yet this is an urgent matter. We have come to the fourth winter of these gaps, and men are falling through these gaps week by week and month by month. As this is a Departmental Committee containing no glib talkers and no politicians on it, but only officials, I think they ought in six months to be able to say whether or not men are falling through these gaps, and, if they are, how that can be remedied. It is a domestic Committee presided over by the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, and I would ask why it has not reported, whether it cannot report, whether that report can be circulated, and whether the Minister cannot tell the House how he is going to provide

    1595
    for stopping up these gaps and preventing these people falling through?
    There is one final point, to which I wish to draw attention. The right hon. Gentleman talked very enthusiastically about the success of unemployment insurance, of the way in which it was saving people from the worst necessities, and he said that the benefit will be available during this coming winter for all these millions of people. Unfortunately, that is not quite accurate. Undoubtedly, the covenanted benefit provided in the Unemployment Insurance Act will be available subject to rather drastic limitations, but it will be available to people legally en titled to it, and the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the great proportion of the people at present unemployed have exhausted their covenanted benefit and are thrown on the tender mercies of the Minister himself for the uncovenanted benefits. I have had any number of rows with the Minister about this uncovenanted benefit, because Parliament provided that it should be given according to the discretion of the Minister of Labour—not even according to rules he would make—and he has exercised his discretion, following his predecessor, in order to exclude from this uncovenanted benefit a large number of people who have been and are entitled to covenanted benefit, but who now find themselves excluded week after week and month after month from the uncovenanted benefit. Consequently, the unemployment insurance scheme is not available—he says it will be available this coming winter—to a considerable number of people who are and will be unemployed because they have been excluded by the Minister's own decision.
    People up to 25 and more, people accustomed to working only part time, who have to pay insurance contribution because they work part time but who can only work part time, are excluded, because he says it is only to be given to people who work whole time. That applies to quite a number of other people. At first, when I discovered that I thought this was a gift and that we must not look a gift horse in the mouth, and that these people were no worse off than if the gift had not been made. I find, however, that it is not a gift at all but a loan, and that every credit given in this uncovenanted benefit has to be paid back in
    1596
    the future, the comparatively near future, and that these people who are unemployed are refused uncovenanted benefit because of the arbitrary rule of the Minister of Labour. Some of these people as they come into employment are charged extra rates which have been put on in order to repay the uncovenanted benefit from which they have not been allowed to draw anything at all. That is not fair or equitable. If you are going to charge these people the full additional rates of contribution which have been put on in order to repay the uncovenanted benefit, it is not fair to deny them the uncovenanted benefit in their hour of need. These single men and women, these part time workers, these married women workers, and quite a number of others that I do not now remember, are charged the extra contribution, are compulsorily insured, and have to pay not only the original contribution but the extra contribution charged on everybody in order to repay the uncovenanted benefit; yet, when they fall into unemployment, they are denied that uncovenanted benefit in their hour of need.
    I would point out, therefore, that the House must not assume, as the Minister said, that the unemployment insurance will be available during the coming winter for these millions of unemployed. It will not, and by the decision of the Minister himself. I am not impugning that decision. That is not the point, but I am bringing to the notice of the House that, although these people are unemployed, not because they are immoral or idle, they are excluded because they belong to particular categories, and not because of personal conduct, and they do not come into that part of the scheme. It does seem to me that this whole method of dealing with the problem of unemployment which the Minister brought before the House to-day, and which is only a little larger than the scheme of last year, is inadequate. We cannot say precisely how much larger this scheme is, but I cannot help thinking that it is not 10 per cent. larger than the scheme of last year, which itself was only a little larger than the scheme of the year before. I do not want to grumble so much as to the small-ness of the amount, but it seems to me that the House and the Government are failing in their duty in going on year after year not realising that after you have done all that you have left one

    1597
    million people unprovided for. The Government on their own figures say that in this coming winter what they are providing will not bring down the number who are not provided for, otherwise than by the dole, below the million, and a considerable number of that million will not even get the dole. I do not think you can go on in that way. I believe this is menacing to the common welfare, and that we are steering into trouble. We do not want to particularise, as we can hardly see what shape it will take. This kind of thing cannot go on, and I am supported in that view by responsible Members who make up the industrial group in this House, and who have addressed to the Government a letter of alarm, anxiety, almost of menace. I should have hesitated myself to put my name to it, but they, on their responsibility and industrial experience, warned the Government that something has to be done.
    Mr. A. HOPKINSON: I understand that they have got what they wanted.
    Mr. WEBB: The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hopkinson) understands that they have got what they wanted. Then is this only a put-up job? Have they got the electrification of the railways—
    Mr. PETO: The hon. Member (Mr. Webb) is not a member of the group.
    Mr. WEBB: Well, I will conclude by saying that I do not believe things can go on as they are, and I ask the Government not to put the people to the hard test of starvation and demoralisation of character which they are now undergoing, remembering that this fourth winter will try them still further. I do not think it is fair to put these 200,000 women and these 67,000 young men and young maidens to that test, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to go to the Government and get some more comprehensive scheme for dealing with what is perhaps the most serious danger that faces us.
    Sir ROBERT HORNE: After the wise, weighty, and grave speech of the right hon. Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) I feel the greatest possible diffidence in addressing the House upon this question, the more so that in a recent speech the Prime Minister directed attention to the inferiority of
    1598
    the legal mind to the business mind. I have the greatest possible admiration for the business man, but that is a sentiment which is not universally shared. I remember in the course of the War, when some business men were connected with large contracts, the results of which the Prime Minister was deploring the other day, two very clever gentlemen at the Treasury were discussing the matter, and one said to the other, "How is it that business men succeed so well in business?" The reply was, "Because they have only got business men to compete with." I think that was treating a very important matter rather flippantly. I am at the present time doing my best to climb those austere heights of intellectual aptitude which business men take in their stride, and I want to congratulate the Prime Minister that he was able to settle the American Debt, after the period at which I gave up my office at the Treasury, and before Mr. McKenna was able to apply his legal mind to the problem.
    I have risen to-night to address myself only to one particular point in the great question which we are discussing; but before I deal with it, may I be allowed to say that it appears to me that all sections of Members in the House so clearly realise the great gravity of the problem with which we are dealing that there is no desire to make party capital out of it. What we are all seeking to do is to arrive at the best possible scheme for relieving the great distress from which we are suffering. Accordingly, it is quite unnecessary for me to take up any of the points raised by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb). I am glad that the Government has seen its way to extend many of the schemes upon which they had already embarked, and I hope—having some knowledge of the good that has been done by the Export Credits Scheme and the Trades Facilities Schemes—that those schemes will be still further extended and that they will be rendered more elastic in operation. There are certain restrictions under which the schemes are at present being worked which it seems to me deprive them of the full efficacy which they might attain. I hope the Government will take into consideration the possibility of loosening some of these restrictions and making it more possible for the gentlemen who administer these schemes to give facilities in many cases where they are tempted to do so, but

    1599
    at the present time feel themselves bound by the inelastic restrictions to refuse.
    I should now like to address myself to a point which might possibly have been appropriate in the Debate to-morrow, but which I think, really, is more apposite to the discussion we are having to-day. We all know that the cause of unemployment at the present time is the lack of trade, that the lack of trade is due to lack of orders, and that the lack of orders is due to the fact that our customers cannot buy. Accordingly, what we have to do is to create markets. Certain markets are being created at home by the proposals of the Government in connection with the extension of local schemes, but, after all, we are an exporting country and our main market is the world outside these islands. The Government scheme, as I understand it, will cover the possibility of trade development in the Empire, and I hope that when the Imperial Conference meets this year we shall see some bold plans adopted as a result of their deliberations.
    The Government is now addressing itself to the problem of bringing about a settlement in Europe, without which we can never have that revival of trade that we all desire, and which is the only means by which, in the end, we can bring about complete employment in this country. In dealing with this problem, I hope the Government will keep very clearly in view the effect upon employment in this country of the particular solution which they adopt. We are living in a world of competitors, and I should like to ask the House to consider the condition of two of our competitors who, at the present time, are greatly in our debt, and are making very little effort to pay us. A very distinguished German financier said to me some time ago, in answer to a question which I put to him as to how Germany would stand if she suddenly got rid of all her obligations to pay reparations, "It would be the most powerful country in Europe." It was a most startling reply, but if we begin to analyse the facts we can see how true it is. Germany, during these years since the Armistice, has not been standing still. She has been steadily re-equipping herself, and one must acknowledge that it has been at the expense of the Allies. She started
    1600
    deliberately upon a policy of evading her obligations, which she has found has not in the end answered, because it has brought her close to ruin. But she stands to-day with all her great industrial organisations reconstructed and put into a condition of efficiency with which we have nothing in this country to compare.
    Germany has got rid of all her debt. She has no external debt, and she has got rid of her internal debt by the inflation of her currency. Not only that, but every business in Germany which previously was burdened with a debenture issue has got rid of its debenture debt. If we suddenly wiped out Germany's reparation payments to-morrow, Germany would be in a position to start in the competition of the world's commerce compared with us in a far more formidable position than she was before the War. What is our position? We, above all other countries, have not neglected to meet our War obligations. We have been manfully facing our obligations. We have a debt now of £7,000,000,000 as against Germany, which has none. Industry in this country is taxed to an unbearable point in order to meet the necessities of the country. It would be in that condition that we should be meeting a Germany freed from all her natural and legal obligations. I hope the Government will keep in view the effect upon employment in this country if Germany is too lightly let off her obligations.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: She is our best customer always.
    Sir R. HORNE: The hon. and gallant Member is forgetting entirely the condition in which Germany was vis-a-vis Britain in the days before the War, and what the condition would be now. We were then free from the present great burden of debt. We stand in a totally different position to-day as against our competitors. Accordingly, while we are interested in doing our utmost to support the revival of world trade, we must see that the conditions under which it is revived are not such as would drive us out of the markets of the world. In this connection I think it would be very unwise to give Germany too long a moratorium. My belief is that the four years which we previously offered in the negotiations between ourselves and France was too long. I believe that if Germany got

    1601
    four years' moratorium, within those four years it would have the greatest possible detrimental effect upon trade and employment in this country. Therefore, in looking at the condition of things at the present time, I think the Government would be wise to consider whether so long a term should again be offered.
    Let me now turn to another country—France. What is her condition to-day? France also has been steadily re-equipping and reconstructing her industrial organisations. There is a completely false idea in existence in this country, and still more across the channel, upon the relative positions of England and France. Because we have been meeting by taxation our expenditure and our credit is good the idea across the channel seems to be that we are too wealthy to be considered in the matter of reparations. We have only been meeting our expenditure by putting an almost intolerable strain upon the whole resources of our country. Even after all the debt which France has incurred since the Armistice, all that she has spent upon her devastated regions, and all that she has borrowed from her own people in order to make up the deficit on her Budgets is taken into account, she has a capital debt of £1,400,000,000 less than our debt. That is not realised. I do not think the French realise it, and I am sure they will not misunderstand me in directing attention to the matter. They have a complete misapprehension as to our position relative to France.
    France to-day as far as her taxation is concerned taxes her people rather less than half per head of what we tax our people. The relative figures are, I think, something like £7 10s. per head in France as against £15 per head in this country since the alteration under the present Budget. The Income Tax which France collects from her people is only about one-sixth per head of what we raise here. France to-day has not only re-established her trade, but last year she had a greater volume of exports and imports than she had before the War, while we are still struggling with about 70 per cent. of our pre-War trade. France is granting subsidies to all sorts of concerns in order to increase her trade. If the House will forgive me I should like to quote a passage from a very carefully prepared report from our commercial representa-
    1602
    tive in Paris. I think it will enlighten hon. Members upon the actual position in France, which I am sure is entirely mis-France, which I am sure is imperfectly understood in this country. He says:
    "The present economic position of Prance is strong. Her industrial population is fully employed and her output in most fields of production is limited only by the dearth of man power."
    Compare that with our condition—
    "The industrial reconstruction of the devastated areas is fast approaching completion; the destroyed or damaged coal mines in these areas are increasing their output, being aided by the improved technical equipment introduced; in the great textile industries of these areas the damaged works, provided with the most modern machinery and accessories, have been occupied to the full extent of the labour at their disposal, especially in the woollen and cotton branches."
    Contrast that with the condition of Lancashire to-day—
    "Work has been brisk in the reconstructed undertakings of the chemical and engineering trades in the same areas. Agricultural reconstruction has not lagged behind; the areas cultivated with the prominent crops—wheat and beetroot—will soon approximate to the pre-War area under these crops, and the sugar factories for handling the beet have now been re-built and re-equipped,"
    I could read many more passages illustrating the same general truth. What I say to the Government is this, that if our competitors are to become free of burdens which we still have to pay, and if we are indeed the only people to bear a War indemnity, then our unemployment in this country will go up, even from the terrible figures of to-day, by leaps and bounds. I would suggest that all these facts should be brought prominently before, not merely the people of this country, but the people of France, and that they should be brought to understand the position in which to-day we are struggling with the great burdens of debt and the great obligations which we are bound to meet. Our people have borne these with a fortitude which has never been paralleled in the history of the world, and it is the high duty of this House to save the people from any further misfortune.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Hillhead Division of Glasgow (Sir R. Horne) has paid a tribute to the fortitude and calmness with which our people have borne

    1603
    the last three winters of unemployment. I would suggest that if all that is to be done is what has been outlined by the Minister of Labour, that fortitude will hardly withstand the strain which is about to be put upon it. What the Minister said in his speech more particularly was more particularly an account of what has been done up to the present. He referred to only one new feature. That was a modified form of assistance to local authorities. From what he said he seemed to think that this would be a great advance on what has been done up to the present. In reply to an interjection to me, I understood him to say that they were going to get double the assistance which they had received before. I question whether that will prove to be so in actual practice. His scheme refers only to revenue-producing schemes. Those of us who are connected with local authorities know that unfortunately the number of revenue-producing schemes which can be put in hand is very small.
    It was my lot last night to be present at the town council meeting in Middles brough, at which schemes were approved to be submitted to the right hon. Gentleman's Department covering a considerable amount of work for the coming winter, and, while he was speaking, I have been going through these schemes and I found that 90 per cent. of the work is work of a non-revenue producing character. The local authority received the Circular of 6th July and, since then, have been exploring every possible means to take advantage of the improved terms which are offered. After the most careful investigation, they find that, owing to local circumstances, which I believe will be found to be similar in most towns, only a very small proportion of work which can be put in hand is of a revenue-producing character. Therefore, even though the terms which he offered are somewhat better than have been granted before, they will only apply to a small part of the work which is to be put in hand during the coming winter.
    The right hon. Gentleman said in his opening remarks that the door was not closed and, therefore, I appeal to him to reconsider whether it will not be possible to give the local authorities more favourable terms, not merely for revenue-producing schemes, but for non-revenue-
    1604
    producing work. What he described as the more favourable terms for the revenue-producing schemes are from 20 to 25 per cent. of the total cost of the work. If the local authority have to pay more than 75 per cent. of the cost of the non-reproductive work to relieve the terrible unemployment in their district, then with the rates at 20s. to 30s. in the £ they cannot face the winter. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister and the Government to give further assistance to those areas which are most badly hit. The Minister referred with pride to the reduction which has taken place in the total numbers of unemployed throughout the country. While that reduction has taken place in the average we still find that in certain districts unemployment, instead of going down, is going up. I made inquiries in Middlesbrough yesterday and I found that in that district the number of unemployed has gradually been creeping up during the last two or three months and that the returns are now considerably higher than they were.
    May I draw the attention of the Minister to the variation which he is making in the returns issued each month by the Ministry of Labour. Up to the present they have shown the varying percentages of unemployment which occur in various districts. I have frequently referred in this House to the abnormal amount of unemployment in the engineering and shipbuilding trades on the northeast coast. Prior to this Debate, I looked up the latest returns, and I find that, instead of the percentages of unemployment being given, as they have been given up to the present, in the July number of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" they have carefully omitted to give the percentages of unemployment in the various districts. They give the aggregate figures, the total number of unemployed in the engineering trade and the shipbuilding trade in each particular district, but when I want to compare that with the rest of the country, those figures, for some reason, are omitted this month. Therefore it is impossible, without working out calculations and turning up previous numbers, to find out the aggregate numbers, compared with the increase which has taken place throughout the rest of the country. Therefore, I would ask the Minister if he would give instructions that the valuable

    1605
    returns which have been made up to the present shall be continued in future numbers, and that the percentage of the numbers who are unemployed shall be given.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): The point was very fully answered yesterday. Shortly, the answer is that a return will be made to the old system. The reason why the old system was abandoned was that we wanted to make the specification agree with the census taken in 1921, but in about two or three months the old system will be restored, and the figures for the intervening months will be supplied.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: I am grateful for the explanation as I did not hear the reply made yesterday. The figures given last month show the percentage of unemployed in the country roughly as 11 per cent. The percentage in the shipbuilding on the North-East Coast is over 40 per cent. and in the engineering on the North-East Coast it is over 20 per cent. Therefore I make a special appeal to the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Health, to see whether their Departments cannot have special regard to the abnormal conditions which prevail in many of these so called necessitous areas. I hope that the Minister of Health, when he comes to speak, may have some message of hope and encouragement to those who have borne a burden which is weighing them down to breaking point, because unfortunately not merely are the returns given by the Employment Exchanges bad, but they are getting worse in those districts.
    I was yesterday on the Middlesbrough Exchange, and I could not find from the business men whom I met one single gleam of hope or comfort for the coming winter. Every business man was despondent, and feared that the coming winter was going to be worse than those which preceded it. Therefore, I think that there is good ground for asking the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour if they cannot give same special assistance to these necessitous areas, where the rates are from 20s. to 30s. in the £, and where they have carried on for three years, as otherwise they will find it impossible to carry on during the coming winter. Not merely are the rate-
    1606
    payers overburdened as ratepayers, but the workers have exhausted all their private savings, and the prospect before them is infinitely worse than ever it was before. Though the Minister of Labour may be correct in his surmise that the numbers of unemployed will not be greater than last year, yet the amount of suffering and privation will be infinitely more, because there are no savings for the workers and those who are suffering to fall back upon. Therefore, I ask the Minister in these further schemes to grant to the local authorities more advantageous terms than have been granted up to the present.
    Another point to which I wish to draw attention is the restriction to 75 per cent. of the standard rate of the wages which may be paid to those engaged in this particular class of work. That may or may not be desirable in certain cases, but in districts where men are engaged in the heavy class of work, where men's usual avocations are of a labouring character of a heavy nature those men who are taken from shipbuilding and ironworks and put to road making give a full day's work, and should not be penalised to the extent of 75 per cent. That was bad enough when wages were high, but when the average wages of a labourer are from 30s. to 35s. a week to pay only 75 per cent. is bringing people almost to a starvation level. Therefore, I hope that a modification may be made, so that the money offered for whatever work they do will enable them to tide through the coming winter.
    Another question to which I wish to refer is the Committee which has been inquiring into the penalties imposed on those who are innocent victims of a trade dispute. My right hon. Friend said that the Committee had been meeting, and was continuing to meet, and that he hoped some beneficial result might follow. Might I remind him that the Committee was appointed in April, 1922, and has not yet reported. How much longer have we to wait before we can have some solution of this problem? If the Committee is unable to come to an agreement is it not possible for the Government themselves to tackle the question, and, looking at it from the broad point of view rather than from the trade point of view, find some solution which will do justice to those who are at present being penalised? He

    1607
    must have had many cases of real hardship which occur through the operation of Section 8, Sub-section (1) of the Act of 1920 brought to his attention during the last few weeks. May I refer to one or two cases which have been brought to my notice lately. This morning I saw a man who said that he had been taken into a ship-repairing yard in the month of April after this unfortunate trouble had begun. He started on shipbuilding work a month or two after the trouble begun. Therefore he was not unemployed on account of the trouble. The particular job came to an end, and when he applied for unemployment benefit, he was ruled out, because he was supposed to be unemployed on account of this dispute. Obviously that was not so, because he was taken on while the dispute was raging. Subsequently, he found work at the same place on ship repairing. That job came to an end, and he appealed again to the local committee, and said, "Here, I have got work; surely the time I have been off is not due to the dispute, but to the absence of work in the ordinary course of events," but he was again refused. I have another case of a man who was employed as a fitter, and was disqualified because of a dispute. He found work as a general labourer, and that went on for some time. When he wanted unemployment benefit, because of the slackness of work, he was refused, and was told it was no good his maintaining he was a fitter, because he was only a labourer; and because of the dispute he could not receive benefit. Those are only two of the many cases entailed by the working of the Section at present, and I hope the Minister may be able to see his way to speed up matters so that these injustices, which rankle very deeply, and, at a time like the present, inflict great hardship, may be removed.
    A suggestion has been made that our Colonies should receive loans free of interest for some two years to come in order to help them. Surely, if it be good for the Colonies it is equally good for those at home, and again I put in a plea for those local authorities and boards of guardians who are equally and more overburdened, equally and more than those people who receive assistance overseas. I contend that those at home are entitled to the same regard. I hope, when
    1608
    the Minister receives applications from the local authorities for assistance, help will be given in no niggardly spirit, and that instead of spending something like £50,000,000 on Unemployment Insurance benefit, as was the case last year, and probably as many millions more to relieve unemployed people, he will see if it is not possible to utilise their services in productive work, so that, at the end of the coming year, we may have really valuable assets to set off against the expenditure of money which will have to be made in one way or another. We have to spend money, and we cannot allow people to starve. As we have to spend it, surely it is not impossible to set in motion those larger schemes of works of public utility which will stand for all time, and will yield a valuable return to the nation in future, while saving men from drawing money for doing nothing, and from that demoralisation which always follows idleness.
    Mr. FLANAGAN: In rising for the first time, I crave your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House. Perhaps, also, I may claim a little sympathy in having to follow the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) who, in addition to the extra calibre he brings to bear, stole some of my thunder This is a subject which touches the heart of everyone in this country, and particularly of those engaged in industry, as I have—I was going to say—the pleasure—to be. It used to be a pleasure, but the suffering round about one now has diminished that pleasure tremendously. I should like to express my keen disappointment—I speak as an employer—at the remarkable figures given by the right hon. Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara). The number of firms which are not on the King's National Roll is a disgrace to the manufacturers of England. I should like to ask any Minister who can interest himself in this matter, and who can influence our countrymen, and particularly our manufacturers, if he can possibly get out some propaganda which might have the effect of bringing these manufacturers into line, and getting them on to the King's National Roll. I want to take the other side, although I appreciate all that the Minister of Labour is doing know him well, and I know that he will do as much as is possible, within his power, from a human point of view to

    1609
    help our poor working people during the coming winter. I know he will do that, and I pray God that he will do it thoroughly and well, with every human instinct, and with every bit of money he can collect. No greater work can be done than to help those willing workers, whose only trouble is that they cannot find the employment they are anxious to obtain.
    I want, for a few minutes, to take the other side, the side of those people who have to pay the bill for these schemes. I mean the private employer, the ordinary employer who, receiving no grant from anywhere, has to fight out his own battles with the help of his workpeople, and make his money on the profit of the transaction. What has been the trouble hitherto? We all know what it is, and I will not enlarge upon it. I want to address myself, in passing, to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I do not wish to make any criticisms, but whether they are strikes or lock-outs we ought all to realise the price we all pay for the trade disputes that arise from time to time. If we could only wipe them out, what a tremendous advance we should make in holding that trade that is often thrown away so lightly. I am a member of the League of Nations Union, and so are many other hon. Members, but I sometimes wonder why we fail to set up a league that could settle our own internal troubles. Is it not rather impertinent to pretend that we can settle international disputes when, at our own doors, we are losing our life's blood by throwing trade away by disputes which we ought to settle as easily as possible? We suffered during the War from many things, including Government control, and I am surprised to find anyone in this House suggesting Socialism, State control, or anything of that start as a panacea for these evils. We have been through it, and we have suffered heavily. We have also the trouble of the Excess Profits Duty, although I was in favour of it at the time, and I should probably be in favour of it now, because it appeared to me to be the only way of getting big profits out of the people who had no right to receive them. What really was the effect of that Duty? It was that from top to bottom it sapped the vitality and the initiative of our people. I do not
    1610
    think there is the slightest doubt about that
    Then came the war weariness. That, with the sapping of their vitality, was not confined to the working people. From top to bottom, right down the grade, people felt that relief from work which set up war weariness, and which we ought to counterbalance. I have heard many Debates on this question, and if hon. Gentlemen opposite will permit me, I would say that two things have stuck in my mind. One is the attitude of hon. Gentlemen on the Labour side with regard to alien immigration. When work is so desperately scarce in our own country, and when housing is so scarce, is it not absolutely necessary that we should reserve to ourselves the right to prevent undesirables, at any rate, coming in, and to prevent all aliens coming in until our own people are provided for and reasonably satisfied? It not only applies to work, but to houses and homes. Surely, it is the duty of any Englishman to look after the people at home before he adds to it by bringing a number of unwanted people here, who have no homes to go to and no jobs to take up! Surely, it makes it 10 times worse for our own people when you leave the doors open.
    There is a subject which I should like to congratulate the Government on taking up with renewed zest, namely, the scheme of emigration from our own shores to the Colonies. It is a system of emigration which is purely voluntary, and which provides facilities for those anxious to leave these shores to settle in the Dominions, to find a job there, and to take their families over with them. They go into our own Colonies, and not into strange and foreign countries, and keep up the breed under the same flag in another branch of the British Empire. It is very easy, of course, I know my hon. Friends opposite will say, to criticise, but what is the possibility of it? We must get down to the bedrock as manufacturers, and see what is the first thing to be done towards quickening up the ordinary trading upon which this country depends. It is an established fact, which we all have to admit, that cheap production is the first and almost the only necessity for selling our goods. You can find a purchaser if you will only produce the goods cheaply. There are two ways of producing cheap goods. One is

    1611
    by reducing wages, which is the most hateful; the other is by improving your factory and your works to such an extent that you may increase your output or improve the quality of your goods without reducing wages.
    In that sense, I should like to thank the Prime Minister for appealing to manufacturers to go forward with possible schemes of improvement for increasing their works immediately, instead of waiting for a little while. I am very grateful and thankful to him, for two reasons, one of which is that undoubtedly the one thing for our manufacturers to do is to expend the last penny on extensions and on improvements on their works, in order to be ready for the opportunity when it comes. The other reason is that, having done it myself, I feel perhaps like the fox who lost his tail in the trap, according to Æsop's Fables, and who returned to the country of Foxland and tried to persuade the other foxes that it was quite fashionable to be without a tail. I should like my competitors to have my bank balance. When I see my bank manager, I wonder what he is going to say, because of the expenditure I have incurred. I am only one out of hundreds who have been involved in an expenditure which has put a strain on their financial resources which is very serious. I hope a large number of other manufacturers will do the same thing, because we know, and we have been told by the right hon. Gentleman, exactly what is happening on the Continent, and unless we are prepared to hold our position and to take the lead there is going to be trouble afterwards.
    8.0 P.M.
    There is one matter, with which I want to finish, which was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. That is the position of Central Europe, as it affects unemployment here and general trading. Personally, I do not mind admitting that had I been a power in the Government, I would have marched into the Ruhr alongside of France. I do not mind admitting that plainly, but I do not want to handicap any hon. Member on my side. I was very delighted to hear the Prime Minister liken his Cabinet to a breakdown gang. I should like him to head that breakdown gang in dealing with the Ruhr question, and with the whole question of Central Europe. I should like him to bring his own personality, and that of his
    1612
    Cabinet and Government, into this question: to forget the past, and to take up a new view point from things as they are. Let the Prime Minister throw his great personality into the solution of this problem. The one thing which is troubling us in Central Europe to-day is lack of confidence in something. It may be lack of confidence in our Government, but there must be a lack of confidence when Allies fall out, and leave a single enemy practically in control. Those who study history know how the Turks defied Europe for half a century by breaking up the Allies who were against them, time after time, and the same game is in operation to-day. Germany is trying to sow dissension among the Allies, so that she may get off at the least possible price. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister mentioned this matter, because it is most serious. The other day the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made this statement:
    "The moment peace is restored you will then be face to face with the real rivalry and the real competition."
    As a business man I say that is the rivalry and the competition which we dread. Germany to-day has got rid of her national internal debt while we have to pay £400,000,000 a year for the debt which we incurred in beating her. Unless we are very careful we shall sail into that final combat to which the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs referred, that final fight for the world's trade, handicapped by £400,000,000 a year of debt payment while Germany rides free. I appeal to the Government to see that our business is protected against that eventuality—that Germany is not allowed to leave us so heavily handicapped in the future struggle. It has been said that France in this matter is acting in the spirit of revenge, but I hope such is not the case. If I thought I were backing up France in a movement undertaken in the spirit of vengeance, I should drop the whole thing like hot coals. One thing I have learned in this life, if I have learned nothing else, is that the words about vengeance contained in the old Book are among the truest ever spoken or penned. No man ever used vengeance in this world without finding that it was a two-edged sword

    1613
    which wounded himself. I have no room for vengeance, but I have room for justice, and it is for justice that I appeal. I appeal to the Government to see that Germany is not allowed to evade her just payments, to see that France is not robbed of her just due. I want not vengeance but justice. In a paper which I usually admire I saw an article recently which spoke of France as having no forgiveness. I hope I am not classed along with men who have no forgiveness. I would give forgiveness, but I would give it on the same terms as did the founder of Christianity. He gave it on terms, and if there was true repentance I would extend forgiveness. Does anybody know of any sign of true repentance having been shown by Germany? I conclude by again appealing to the Prime Minister to throw his great personality, which is marked by truth, honesty and integrity, into the scale in Central Europe, and by that honesty of purpose which is so apparent in the right hon. Gentleman, I think he can turn the scale in favour of maintaining the unity of the Allies until we get justice and real justice from Germany.
    Mr. J. JONES: In the course of this afternoon's Debate we had a remarkable exhibition of statesmanship from ex-Cabinet Ministers. They told us that they were wrong all the time they were in office, and, in fact, that they are only right when they are out of office. What we have been listening to in these economic dissertations amounts to a confession of failure from A to Z. The condition of Europe to-day is largely due to the statesmanship of the right hon. Gentlemen who addressed the House this afternoon. It is their policy which is on trial. One right hon. Gentleman informed us that Germany has no unemployment, and another informed us that France has no unemployment. She has reconstructed her devastated areas and everything in the garden is lovely for France, but this, the one country which faced the principal financial burdens of the War, is down and out. Instead of talking in this complacent manner to us, these gentlemen should be in sackcloth and ashes, seeking to justify their own miserable existence as statesmen. It is no wonder they are now out of work in that capacity.
    I desire, however, to speak on matters which come more closely home. I repre-
    1614
    sent a constituency which has had more than its fair share of unemployment. We were compelled to borrow £1,000,000 and to pay 6 per cent. interest on it, and this is one of the poorest districts in the country, with a rate of 26s. in the £. When we appeal for assistance we are told that nothing can be done for us, but we are offered a certain amount of tenderhearted consideration. We are fearful for the coming winter. We have got nearly to the end of our tether. We have got to the last £200,000 of the £1,000,000 which we borrowed to meet the unemployment situation, and when the last £200,000 goes we are face to face with a responsibility of £27,000 a week to be paid in relief of unemployment. It is all very well for the Minister of Labour to tell us what the Government are doing. It is the local authorities who have to bear the principal responsibility in the matter, because the few paltry shillings which the men draw at the Employment Exchanges do not meet the problem. It is the local authorities who are up against the problem, particularly in districts like that which I represent, highly rated and heavily taxed in every direction. Because they contain a population irregularly employed—casual workers and so on—and because they are doomed by economic circumstances to have most of their population earning their breakfasts before they get them and seeing more dinner-times than dinners, such districts have to subsidise the Government and make up to the unemployed people what they cannot get in ordinary circumstances.
    There is an unofficial strike going on at present, and while I am not going to defend unofficial strikes, I would point out that it is very easy for those in comfortable circumstances to judge the men in such a case. It is easy to talk about the sanctity of agreements, but I remind hon. Members that in my constituency for four years, the majority of the dock labourers have not averaged one day's work a week. To these men a shilling a day means a lot more than it does to a man in regular employment. The iron has entered into their souls, and in spite of pieces of paper and in spite of the fact that agreements have been signed—and I agree that they should be kept when they are signed—the men have taken this course. You must put yourselves in the place of these men who find

    1615
    themselves up against this situation every day of their lives. On two occasions last week while these men were holding peaceable meetings and expressing their grievances, without any warning, without being told that they were doing wrong, the meetings were broken up by mounted and foot policemen—well-fed men, who are guaranteed a minimum wage of £3 a week, who are provided with clothing by the State, who have plenty of the opportunities of life, and whom we in this House often support. By somebody's orders these men rode into the crowd of men, women and children—most of whom were at rock-bottom so far as economic conditions are concerned. We have asked for an inquiry in this House and we have been denied it. I have evidence in my possession that the meetings were quite orderly, and that nothing was said or done to justify this attack upon the people in which men, women and children have been injured. I raise this matter, and I hope the Home Secretary in the course of the evening will be able to offer some justification or explanation. Whether a strike is official or unofficial, these men have the ordinary rights of British citizens to free opportunity of discussing their grievances in public meetings.
    I do not claim to be an expert in figures. The only figures I understand are the figures in the streets, but we of the ordinary working class have never been able to understand the basis on which the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Labour make up the cost of living index figure. The working people of the country absolutely repudiate this figure, and we wish to know in what way it is made out. We have never had it explained to us, although we have been waiting for years. There is another subject to which I wish to refer. I happen to be interested in a number of men employed at Woolwich Arsenal, and other unions as well are interested in this matter. I wish to know from those responsible for the administration of that great public Department, why private firms are allowed to send their representatives into the Arsenal to discover methods of production peculiar to the Arsenal? Certain classes of work have always been done there by certain classes of workmen, and it has been conveyed to us by deputations of the
    1616
    workmen, that the representatives of certain private companies have been allowed into the Government workshops to watch the men at work and to see how certain kinds of work are done. What is the object of that? Does any private firm allow Government representatives to watch any of its secret processes of manufacture so as to copy them, and compete against the firm afterwards? Yet what I have described is happening in Government workshops, and the men have decided they will not work while they see these people in shops. They refuse to have anything more to do with this system of espionage. If you want private enterprise to be subsidised at the public expense, this is the wrong way to go about it.
    When I hear the question of unemployment discussed as though it were a product of the War, it makes me feel tired. I have taken part in unemployed movements since I was 17 years old, very often walking the streets of this great city myself, unemployed, for weeks at a stretch, and the only difference between unemployment now and then is that it is more intense now, but what we are witnessing to-day is not a mere unemployment problem. What we are face to face with to-day is the collapse of the system. Your system has broken down, and unemployment is a necessary part of the capitalist system. France is prosperous to-day to a certain extent, but when she has done all that is necessary in the matter of reconstruction, and built up her cities and towns that were destroyed during the War, she will have her turn, as we have had ours. Capitalism says: "Get bigger or burst, and if you do not get bigger, you will burst." Unemployment is part and parcel of the system. One gentleman has been honourable enough to admit it. The President of the Yorkshire Woollen Manufacturers' Association admitted it the other day when addressing his association, when he said that a certain proportion of unemployed is absolutely necessary for the carrying on of our industry. They all know that. Therefore, all these crocodile tears about the men who are out of work come forward only at certain times, when they are looking for votes.
    We are not out for sympathy; we are out for justice, and that justice can be given

    1617
    only when you admit what we are asking and demanding all the time, namely, that every willing worker shall be provided with the opportunity to work, or else be given a decent subsistence so that he may be able to live. How is it that you could find work for every boy during the War? My own father-in-law, T4 years of age, was sent for, after they had sacked him 10 years previously, and they gave him a pound a week more at 74 than when he was an able-bodied workman, because all the young men had gone to the War, and they wanted the old men to carry on while the young men did the fighting. Then we had the organising ability; then we had the money; then we had the power. Now we have lost, it. The late Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) told us we had annihilated space and harnessed science, that, through our organising ability, we had beaten the Germans at their own game in every possible direction, and that the men in the trenches and the men at the benches had made it possible for us to get the greatest victory ever known in the history of civilisation. What is the victory? We have almost as big an army of unemployed men and women now as there were men who went out to the front in the first year of the War. What is the victory? To-day the workers have sacrificed £700,000,000 per annum in wages, on the present basis of wage reductions that have taken place, and at the same time 850 joint stock companies in Great Britain have increased their capital by exactly the same sum, £700,000,000, and they have done something more.
    The hon. Member for Clayton (Mr. Flanagan), to whose maiden speech we have just listened, talked about competition and protection. What kind of protection are we going to have to enable us to hold our own against the cheap labour of China, Japan and India? £200,000,000 worth of textile machinery went out last year to the Far East and the Near East, and that machinery is going to be used to equip the workers of those countries, who, by their longer hours and lower wages, may be able to take from us the possibility of holding our own in the markets of the world. What kind of protection are we going to
    1618
    have to protect the cotton operatives of Lancashire and the woollen operatives of Yorkshire against that kind of competition? "Live horse, and you will get grass." If you can live on the smell of an oil rag, your wages will be the price of oil rags, because wages always tend to come down to the cost of subsistence, and the only protection the workman can have is his own organisation, industrial and political. I am not blaming hon. Members opposite I do not say it is lack of heart. It is not with their hearts that I find fault; it is their heads that are wrong. They know on which side of their bread their butter is, but I want them to realise that they have to get down to facts, and that it is no good talking about patching up a system that has already broken down.
    What we want is a root and branch reorganisation, and if it is a matter of schemes of employment, the pigeon-holes of Whitehall are full of them. I remember the Royal Commission of 1886 reporting in favour of great schemes of reconstruction. We have had numbers of Commissions, and all I can see as a result is that they find work for printers, and that is about the only people for whom they do find work. [AN HON. MEMBER: "And lawyers!"] Of course, lawyers are always there, but we have had dozens of Committees and Commissions, reports pigeonholed, nothing doing, and to-day we have the same tale repeated to us. One would almost imagine, to hear the right hon. Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) talk, that he was a new recruit to the House of Commons, who had never heard of these things before, but we have had to go on deputations to him many times, almost on our knees, to ask him to do the very things that he is now asking this Government to do. I am sick and tired of appealing to these Ministers, who, when they are out of office, are full of sympathy, and when they are in office are always very bland, but very careful. I, therefore, say that we want something more than mere expressions of sympathy. We are anxious to get these problems tackled in a real way. It is not for lack of means, because the country that can find £900,000,000 worth of fresh capital in twelve months can find the necessary means to carry out the schemes already adumbrated The schemes and the money are here.

    1619
    We have heard a great deal about the country being bankrupt. The majority of the people of the country are bankrupt, but a certain number are not. There are 360,000 people in this country who have between them, annually, £1,680,000,000 of income. We might have a little of that The best argument for a capital levy I have ever heard in this House was advanced to-day by an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for the Hillhead Division (Sir Robert Horne), who practically informed the House that to all intents and purposes we are shouldering the debt of Europe, that we are the only people who are solvent, that we are paying the debt, £400,000,000 per annum and interest. That demonstrates that if we cannot make the people pay who owe us money, we are getting the money from somewhere, because we could not pay if we had not got it. Somebody must have it, and yet we have this argument advanced by men who are honoured in the nation, by clever people. I am not clever, but I hope I am clean. We have these great men talking to us as they have talked this afternoon, but I want to say: Cease making phrases, and get to business. You are responsible, not we.
    We say that these problems can be solved in only one way, and that is by taking control of the wealth of the nation in the interests of the people of the nation. We claim that the men and women who make the nation's wealth ought also to be able to make the nation's law. You have the power; why not use it? What stands in the way? If you want to solve the unemployment problem, we will go into the Lobby with you. What are you going to do? I am a member of a town council, and you simply tell us who are members of local bodies, "Come to us and borrow money, free of interest." That is a bit of advance on the last, but why not give us the money? We will find you the schemes of work if you will give us the money with which to carry them out. We have already proposed schemes to the Government, and we are told that because they are non-revenue producing they cannot be carried into effect. Take the Victoria and Albert Docks area. There we are prevented, simply through lack of money, from carrying out schemes of public improvement. We have schemes that are looked
    1620
    upon as practicable and desirable, but, because they are non-revenue producing, we cannot undertake them. Why not extend your suggestion, and give us-credit for the non-revenue producing as well as the revenue-producing schemes? We have a great roadway we want to build along the docks, and there are slum areas we want to clear. Why should not the clearance of slum areas be subsidised as well as tramway extensions or other revenue-producing schemes?
    If you cannot go any further, at any rate, if you are going to give us any assistance whatever, do not place any embargo on the local authorities, but give us complete freedom to carry out schemes we have already on our books. If you will not agree with all we say do give us all the assistance you possibly can, because we are fearful of what may happen next winter. We want to try to alleviate the situation to the best of our ability. We are willing to try to find employment, but the boards of guardians in the East End of London to-day are at the end of their tether. My wife has not been able to sleep for weeks because of the troubles brought on as a member of the relief committee of the board of guardians. That is only an example of what is happening all round. Therefore, I hope the Government will not put restrictions on the local authorities, but will give us all the assistance they can to carry out our schemes.
    Major-General Sir J. DAVIDSON: Reference has been made this afternoon in more than one quarter to the disabled men who are out of work. I am not going to make a speech now on the subject. Everything there is to be said has already been said dozens of times, and it is a platitude to say, as everyone will agree, that it is the duty of the country to look after the men who were disabled in the War. But I do want to make an appeal to all Members of the House, as vice-chairman of the Council of the King's National Roll, and on behalf of that Council, that when Members go to their constituencies they will bring the question of the King's Roll to the attention both of the local authorities and of the various firms in their constituencies. In many cases the local authorities have not done their duty in respect to the disabled men. I do not believe that, either as regards the local authorities or as regards the firms,

    1621
    this lapse of duty is due to obstruction, or neglect or anything of that sort. I believe it is due entirely to one cause, and that is ignorance. We in the National Council during the past six months have had to fight this ignorance, and our one business has been to try to get everybody to know about the King's Roll and about disabled men in their particular locality. There is no reason whatever why every Member of this House should not know all about the King's Roll in the short White Paper, which takes about 10 minutes to read, and if hon. Members, when they go down to their constituencies in the Recess, will bring this question before the local authorities, and before the firms, by meetings, or by some other means, they will be doing a very great service to the disabled men.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I would like, first of all, to reinforce the expression of opinion which my hon. and gallant Friend has just given to the House. I do not think any Member of this House could be more usefully employed during the Recess than in advocating the betterment of the conditions of ex-service men throughout the country. I am personally convinced that local authorities in many parts of the country have not yet realised that there is such a thing as the King's Roll, and I do not think it would be a bad thing if my hon. Friend, who will reply in the course of the Debate, would tell us that he is going to take steps to make all local authorities in the country acquainted with what the council is doing, and what the King's Roll means.
    I am not going to attempt to analyse the general question of unemployment. Unemployment has always appeared to me to be like a man who is suffering from frost-bite. The blood has ceased to flow in his veins, and anything that is artificially applied to make the blood run again must of necessity be painful. I was very much interested, in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour this afternoon. We are told that all sorts of companies, and all sorts of undertakings, are to be assisted. Well and good. I am all for Empire settlement, for Empire development and for the extension of the trade of this country into every region of the Empire; but, at the same time, I
    1622
    cannot help thinking there are many things at home which require just the same sort of assistance. I will give a case in point. Before the War, my right hon. Friend, who was then Secretary for Scotland, and myself did our level best to get a light railway through an agricultural district. I refer to the Dingwall and Cromarty light railway. The Government of the day were satisfied that this was a railway which would be of great use. It is a wide agricultural district, and it was felt that one of the greatest benefits that could be conferred on that particular district was the institution of this railway. The Government of the day, in 1912, gave a grant for that railway. In 1914, the railway was started, and four and a half miles of it were actually completed. The rails were actually laid down, and had it not been for the War, of course, would have been completed.
    What happened? The men who were employed upon that railway almost to a man were territorial soldiers, and to a man they enlisted, not for home service but for foreign service. The others who were left behind were attracted away from the work of that railway by the enormously high wages that were being paid in the dockyard, and, added to that, was this significant fact The Govern themselves commandeered the four and a half miles of railway that were laid down. While we in this House are all anxious that everything should be done for Empire development let us not forget the grievous cases that occur in our midst. I am appealing to the Minister of Labour to come forward to help on this scheme now. There is a great deal of unemployment in that district. As a matter of fact we have a certificate from the predecessor of the right hon. gentleman saying that this is a necessitous area from the point of view of unemployment.
    Most of the men who are unemployed are ex-service men. They do not wish for charity, nor for the dole! What they wish for is some employment in their own district. Apart altogether from the fact that this was considered a useful railway by a former Government, I should like my right hon. Friend to consider with the Minister of Transport whether this particular railway might not at once be re-started. First of all, from his own point of view to give employment and not the dole to ex-service men who are

    1623
    anxious and willing to work in their particular part of the country, and, secondly, from a point of view of the State's attitude to agriculture. After careful consideration on all hands, this railway was proved conclusively to be of great benefit to the agricultural community. While we on this side are anxious, as I have said, to do everything possible to increase the trade and employment of our country so far as our export trade to the Colonies, the Dominions, the Crown Colonies, and the whole world is concerned, we yet have a duty to ourselves at home. I would, therefore, beg my right hon. Friend in the light of the facts I have just explained to do everything in his power to see to it that employment is given in this part of the country to ex-service men in connection with the railway, which is bound to be not a work of relief but a work of genuine good for the whole community.
    Mr. PETO: Following the example just given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson), I shall presently give the House a similar example which I hope the Minister will bear in mind so that he may do what he can. What, however, I want to do mainly is to try to follow the remarks made on unemployment relief in view of the immediate problem before us in the coming winter, and as to how we are going to find, if possible, useful work for a larger number of our great army of unemployed. It appears to me that the consideration of unemployment is naturally divided into two quite distinct parts. Firstly, what we are to do in view of the winter. Long before any steps we may take to develop the trade of our Empire or any other methods are put into practice to find new markets or develop old ones to make up for the loss of the markets of the past come to fruition, we have to deal with the unemployment problem this next winter.
    If we look at this, as I think rightly, and in the right proportion, we shall find that these two questions really have a point of contact, and that point of contact is to discover a real national policy and to get again on the lines of national policy if we wish to weather these doleful times. As to the immediate problem, there is no question about it that what we have to do is as nearly as possible to employ those
    1624
    men and women who are unemployed now in their own trades, so that they may maintain their skill and their self-respect. That is a first condition of any schemes which may be considered. Next we must employ them on works which will cheapen transport and power in the future, and as near as possible to their own homes so that they may be employed, while our trade is depressed, in equipping ourselves for the future, the better to compete in the markets of the world and so find more employment as the tide sets our way again.
    We have had from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) a description of what Germany and France are doing and have done in that direction. They have already found employment for the vast number of their people in doing various kinds of work which will make them more independent in the future, and it seems to me, therefore, that it is the clear duty of the Government to look at this question from a national point of view. I do not question for a moment, following the speech of my right hon. Friend, that the Government whole-heartedly desire to find employment so far as they possibly can. I quite understand from the speech of my right hon. Friend that they do not like to hear the unemployment benefit spoken of as a dole. I heard what he said about it. He said it was not really coming out of the pocket of the taxpayer, but that the State was a junior partner which only paid £13,000,000, whilst a very much larger amount, £17,000,000, came out of the pockets of the working classes. I do not think that is any justification of it at all. It is not for him to come down to the House and say, "We are handling this unemployment problem all right because the employers of the country"—already taxed up to the hilt at every point—"are finding £19,000,000 towards it, and the people"—a million and a quarter of whom are unemployed and for whom we can find no employment or wages—"are themselves finding another £17,000,000." That is not the line I want to see pursued, and I do not think it is a line that need really be pursued at all. I want the Government to have a real employment policy, not an unemployment policy. We have not to look merely at the question of the men unemployed, and consider that somehow we have got to find

    1625
    them bread and a very little butter, week after week through the winter. I want the Government to see how they are going to employ these people on national lines, and not on parochial lines. We are always hearing from the Government that they have been appealing to the local authorities and impressing upon them the desirability of bringing forward new schemes in their localities, and hearing that these local authorities are on their beam ends to find some new local concern to be put forward, whether revenue producing or not. I think that is the wrong way to go about it. What are the local authorities? What is their outlook? What are their! powers? Their very name implies that they are local. This is a national question; a great national question; the greatest national question we have to face, and you will never settle it by arranging for tramways to be put down, little bits of road-making here, and a public bath there, and things of that kind. I want to call attention to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour said, in the course of his speech, that relief work for the unemployed would find work for 35,000 men—
    Sir M. BARLOW: That is not so. The figure of 35,000 related only to one proposal. Our programme as a whole will, I said, secure employment for 200,000 to 300,000.
    Mr. PETO: I was going to mention the larger figure later. The right hon. Gentleman, in recapitulating a long list of the different little efforts, mentioned the 35,000 to which I have referred. He said the total of these schemes would find employment for about 200,000 men. That. I think, was the largest figure he mentioned, so after all is done there will still be not less than about a million unemployed. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take a very much larger outlook altogether. We have been asked why we cannot have a huge national loan, and do all sorts of things with it. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) spoke about the surplus of last financial year of £101,000,000, and expressed his regret that the Government did not come and ask for authority to devote a huge sum like that to the settlement of this problem instead of devoting it to the reduction of debt. I would like to point out that that £101,000,000 reduced
    1626
    our total of national indebtedness, it raised our credit, and it was one of the very important factors in the improvement of our credit and in cheapening-the rate at which the Government can borrow money. I believe that money was wisely used in the way it was used, and there is no need for the Government to go to people and ask for a great ad hoc loan on this question of unemployment.
    It is true perhaps that we have more unemployment than any other country, but at any rate we have higher credit, and consequently we can borrow money upon better terms. Let the Government use that credit. It can invite schemes, and the Treasury can assist them up to almost any amount if they are truly national schemes which could not be carried out if it were not for the Government standing behind them. There is no necessity for the Government to lend the money, because the public will lend it. The Government ought to guarantee a part of the interest, say, for 10, 15 or 20 years, perhaps at 1 per cent. in one case-and 2 per cent. in another, and in that: way I believe we could carry out such works as those which were recommended by the Royal Commission on Canals. At-the present time we have ditches about-100 years old, most of them silted up. Eleven years ago the Royal Commission) recommended, at a time when there was; no particular amount of unemployment, that a great scheme known as the Birmingham Cross should be carried out.. Why cannot great schemes of that kind, even if they cost £100,000,000, be financed by a special loan in regard to, which the Government might guarantee-a part of the interest for a certain number of years until the undertaking becomes a revenue-producing concern.
    Then there is the question of the electrification of railways. A very large sum is to be spent for this purpose, but a good deal more might be spent in this way by the railway companies themselves. At the present time they have large reserves, and now is the time that they ought to spend it. There is also the question of the erection of more power stations which would economise the transport of coal and cheapen production in the future. Then there is the question of Empire-railroad development. In this case I think there is much more scope. I know-there are some schemes in connection

    1627
    with railways which ought to be tackled at home. Directly I came back to the House last year the first thing I did was to go to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour and other Ministers to urge upon them this policy, and I asked them to deal with the thing on big lines.
    I ask the right hon. Gentleman now whether the best thing he can do is to get a small committee of three or five heads of great business enterprises, each in a different trade or industry, not politicians, but unconnected with the Government, and ask them within three or four weeks to recommend to the Government what in their opinion are the most profitable great public works that can be undertaken in the future interest of the country to enable it to compete more effectively in the world's markets. Probably the Government would get an answer which would run into a great many millions, but at any rate it would be dealing with the question on national lines and not socialistic lines, and the State would be coming in to help in the way it ought to help by using national credit and financing great national undertakings.
    With regard to railway development in this country, such as that which was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson), I would like to mention that the other day I took a deputation to the Southern Railway about an old grievance in my part of the country in North-West Devon. We have always been cut off from the rest of the world by a single line of railway. Some 10 or 12 years ago this House passed a Bill giving the London and Southwestern Railway powers to double the line from Exeter to Barnstaple. All the metalling was done and the bridges and a double track was laid for a certain number of miles out of Exeter and out of Barnstaple. There remains about 15 miles in the middle which has not yet been completed, and it has been left like that ever since.
    The other day the Great Western Railway restored quite pre-War speed, and they now do the journey from London to Barnstaple in 4 hours 9 minutes. Owing to the fact that there is only a single track on the Southern Railway, the
    1628
    best time they can do this journey is just under five hours, and the other trains take nearly six hours to do the journey. At a time when the railway companies have got £130,000,000 in reserve, to tell us that they cannot spend £60,000 in order to complete a double track railway on a very important line which was authorised by a special Act of Parliament 10 or 12 years ago in this state of unemployment, shows that there is something very wrong somewhere. To argue from past traffic as to future possibilities, and to tell us that they will not spend this sum of money because they are not perfectly certain, from past traffic returns, that it will be a profitable undertaking is really not quite good enough.
    9.0 P.M.
    I will now turn to another and much greater question. What I have said deals with the immediate employment to be found in the coming winter, and until trade revives or new markets are found. The cause of the trade depression in this country seems to be pretty generally agreed in all parts of the House. I have noticed that opinions are changing very much, and the speeches of various hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to-day are very different to what they were at the beginning of the Session. I find in all quarters it is agreed that it is not a question of the German exchange, for if that were stabilised to-morrow it would not put things right for us. It is not a question of the Russian collapse under her present form of Government. It is not a question of the French action in the Ruhr, but it is something much more important and deeper than all. I will give three quotations on which I do not think it is necessary I should make any comment. The late Prime Minister on the 2nd January in Paris said:
    "It is my conviction from a purely selfish point of view that if the rest of the world were restored to normal conditions and an earthquake suddenly swallowed up the whole of Germany we ought to gain materially and not lose, because Germany was a rival, a competitor, to a greater extent than she was a customer."
    I now ask the House to listen to a quotation from the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who, speaking in this House on the 16th July, said:
    "The moment peace is restored in Europe and the exchanges are stabilised … you will be face to face with the real rivalry and the competition."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th July, 1923; col. 1950, Vol. 166.]

    1629
    Next I ask the House to listen to what I think was an even more significant statement, considering the quarter from which it came, a statement by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell), who, speaking here on 26th July—I did not listen to the speech, but I have read every word of it since, and some of it twice, because it is a speech of extraordinary interesting significance—said:
    "With regard to foreign trade—it is quite a misconception …. that if the Government, acting in conjunction with other Governments abroad, can settle the problems of Central Europe, trade will revive. It is equally a mistake to imagine that if you restore your trade relationship with Russia you will solve your industrial or trade problems here. I do not want to minimise the importance either of a European settlement or of the resumption of trade relations with Russia, but hon. Members appear to forget—and this is a point which I think constitutes the most formidable menace against British commerce for many a long day—that Great Britain is no longer the chief manufacturing nation of the world."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th July, 1923; col. 811, Vol. 167.]
    There is no doubt that a vast change has taken place in the course of trade. We built up our population in this country for three generations on a growing export trade mostly done with partly developed countries that were ready to buy from us. The tide was always a flowing tide and whatever changes there were were generally on the up grade. But it was hindered by our economic fiscal system. But that tide is now on the ebb, and I hope the House will consider why it is ebbing, for that is at the bottom of our unemployment problem. The question is what steps we ought to take. Every country in the world is determined to produce at home what hitherto it has bought from us. These countries have determined on a policy which will not allow them to come to us as they have done in the past as a sort of universal provider—the Whiteley of the world. We shall never be that again. In the course of the Debate to-night one hon. Member mentioned the enormous export of textile machinery from Oldham. I am told on very good authority that the machinery manufacturing business in Oldham has been giving constant full employment to the maximum number of workpeople in the industry of manufacturing textile machinery for export abroad while alongside those works our
    1630
    mills and machines have been idle. For instance, such a thing as webbing for motor tyres. They are now imported into this country and sold at a lower price than we can produce them here. Motor tyres were originally included in the McKenna Tariff of 1915 as accessories or parts of motor-cars. They were deliberately cut out, and, in consequence of that shortsighted action, we now have 11,500 mechanics in the motor-tyre manufacturing business unemployed to-day, while the machines which were making cotton webbing are idle. The only business which is actually booming is the manufacture of textile machinery for export from this country to those who are competitors against us for the market we ourselves used to supply. What is the remedy? The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs made a speech in December, which was then particularly devoted to the agricultural aspect of the case, and he recommended a tribunal which was set up. The right hon. Gentleman spoke again on the 16th of this month, and then he recommended the setting up of another Commission. I do not think hon. Members opposite received that suggestion with very much cordiality. What did the hon. Member for Linlithgow suggest at the end of his speech in July? His words were:
    "We on these benches believe that industry is in such an appalling condition throughout the country that it is essential for the State at some point to come in."
    The hon. Member did not elaborate that, but we know what it means. It is a reference to a Resolution which was moved by the party opposite on the question of our system in this county, and the Resolution declared:
    "that legislative effort should be directed to the gradual supersession of the capitalist system by an industrial and social order based on the public ownership and democratic control of the instruments of production and distribution."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Inasmuch as the terms of that Resolution would require legislation to give effect to them, it is not in order to discuss it now.
    Mr. PETO: I only wish to point out that that was what the Resolution suggested. It is not the solution that I suggest. That question was, the House will remember, very fully debated, but

    1631
    there is only one point I wish to refer to. In the speech of the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) the right hon. Gentleman said that if that was to be the solution it was quite clear we should be faced with a much more serious position in competing in foreign markets and in regard to foreign competition in this country. The conclusion I drew from that speech was that it was quite clear that under the Socialist system for carrying on industry the most rigid and highest imaginable protection would be the only possible safeguard.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): This clearly is not in order. On the former occasion the House was invited to pass a Resolution to give effect to which legislation would be needed, but in a Debate on the Appropriation Bill it is not in order to debate that Resolution on the reconstruction of our social system.
    Mr. PETO: I will leave that subject in obedience to that ruling, and I will merely turn to what I think is the potential policy which must be pursued. The President of the Board of Trade the other day pointed out that the time of greatest prosperity and least unemployment in this country was when the great markets of the United States of America were comparatively free to us and were being developed, more than 50 years ago, and that we must turn to new markets in undeveloped countries. I suggest to hon. Members opposite that the only new market we are likely to have, and the only undeveloped areas in the world to which we can turn our industry, and in which we can employ our people, are those of our own Empire. It is there that we must turn for the real and permanent cure of our unemployment. I want to see, at the coming Imperial Conference, what Mr. Bruce, the Prime Minister of Australia, asks for in a most important cable which was made public in this country on Saturday last, namely, what he calls a sound economic policy for the Empire. The Government must look at every proposal made at that Conference with an absolutely open mind, and consider it in terms of employment, considering whether or not it will give more employment to the people of this country and of the different parts of the Empire.
    1632
    We must realise that we can no longer afford to buy abroad anything that we can produce at home, and that, without the adoption of a policy of Empire production primarily for exchange within the Empire, migration to other parts of the Empire is of no use at all. We have to find in one way or another a market for the surplus products of our people whom we ask to emigrate to different part3 of the Dominions. Sir George Fuller the other day said that he wanted them to have a fair show on the British market. That is all a part of the policy that we have to adopt in order to find full employment for our people here, and I am sure there is no other way in which we can hope for a permanent solution of the problem. I hope the Government will look at the immediate problem before us from the national point of view, and will adopt, if possible, the suggestion that I have made of getting outside advice as to the lines on which great national works can be undertaken; that they will cease to harry the local authorities to put up more schemes of one kind or another of a purely local kind, but will look at it from the biggest point of view; and that when the Economic Conference takes place, as it will before this House meets again, and the Government meet the Dominion Premiers and discuss with them this question of the future employment of our people in their lands, their one guiding factor in deciding every proposal that is put before them will be, whether it will find employment for our people. If it will, they should not bar from discussion any single proposal that may be put forward by the Dominions.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has covered a great deal of ground, but his speech has one thing in common with every speech that has been made from the opposite side of the House this afternoon, and that is that all the suggestions which have been made have been limited to schemes which are wealth-producing or wealth-productive, in the sense that their productivity can be measured immediately in pounds, shillings and pence. I should like to associate myself with the expressions of wonder that fell from the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) earlier in the Debate, that, apparently, the Board of Education has not been invited to make its contribution to this work. There is hardly an education

    1633
    authority up and down the country which has not great arrears of work that could be put in hand. There are many authorities that have in their midst schools which are already condemned as insanitary, and, as regards secondary education, there are many authorities that have never built a secondary school. I join with one or two hon. Members who have already spoken in asking that the Board of Education should be consulted and should be invited to make its contribution to this problem, because such work would be in a very real sense productive, and we might, if we dealt with it on a broad and generous basis, extract from this curse of unemployment something which would be permanently good.
    I have had the advantage of listening to, I think, every speech that has been made so far in this Debate, and, consequently, I have had the advantage of hearing nearly every point upon which I desired to address the House dealt with with great ability by someone else; but there is one point which I desire to raise, and which has not been mentioned so far by anyone else, although the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) got rather near to it when he advocated a loan of £100,000,000—a suggestion which I was glad to see the Minister of Labour did not turn down as being entirely unworthy of consideration. The point that I desire to mention, and I think it is one of far greater importance than is generally realised, is the relationship of the currency policy and credit supply in this country to the problem of unemployment. I regret to learn, from the reply of the Prime Minister to a question the other day, that the Government are not considering this matter in relation to unemployment, and that they have no immediate intention of doing so. This matter is of great importance, because there appears to be a divergence of view and a difference of policy between the Government and the Bank of England in this matter.
    The Prime Minister, in a recent Debate, said that in his view the important thing for the country at the present time was to keep prices stable and steady; and the very next day the Bank of England, no doubt with its eye fixed on the question of the American exchange, took occasion to raise the Bank rate to 4 per cent. If that is a definite policy directed towards main-
    1634
    taining the value of the pound in relation to the dollar, we are quite likely to be confronted with the probability, as the rate continues to fall, of an advance in the Bank rate to 5 per cent. I am quite ready to admit that the rise in the Bank rate from 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. has not made, and is not likely to make, very much difference to the price. of trade advances, and, consequently, to have any great influence on unemployment; but I do suggest that a further advance from 4 to 5 per cent.—and, as the rate of exchange is continuing to fall, that is a natural development of the apparent policy of the Bank of England—will have an immediate effect on the price of traders' advances throughout the country, and that will have an effect, as I think the right hon. Gentleman well knows, on the question of unemployment with which he is seeking to deal. I submit that the relation of credit supply to unemployment is well worthy of consideration and inquiry, not by politicians, but by a Committee or Commission of experts, economists and financiers. I am convinced that by regulation of the credit supply and sound currency policy it would be possible to modify the great and sudden changes in supply and demand which are the source of so much permanent unemployment.
    I should like to turn abruptly from that subject to say that, quite apart from all that has been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman to-day, a great deal could be done to alleviate the situation at the present time by improvement in the working of the existing Employment Exchanges. I am not reflecting for a moment on the working or the conduct of that vast machine by the insurance officers or those responsible for it. As far as my observation goes, they are performing their work with a great deal of sympathy and very great efficiency, but I should like to refer more particularly to the working of Section 8 (1) of the old Act, which deals with trade dispute disqualification. A very serious situation has arisen in some districts owing to the working of this Act. I do not wish to use language of exaggeration, but in some districts the situation is intolerable. There are something like 8,000 cases at present of men who are disqualified from benefit in relation to the boilermakers' dispute alone. I should like to give the House two illustrations of the way in

    1635
    which this thing is working, which is causing intense bitterness and dissatisfaction. I should like to mention the case of a man who has been a contributor to the Insurance Fund ever since it started and, having been in good and regular work, never made any claim on it until 12 months ago he got out of work. One week before the boilermakers' dispute began he had a chance of a job and jumped at it. Actually on the day on which the dispute began he was discharged. On going to hand in his book to make his claim as usual he was told he was not entitled to benefit, but was disqualified on account of the boilermakers' dispute. That man's claim was settled yesterday, having gone through the machinery which was set up under the Act, and it was settled in his favour, but for three months he has been in a state of constant uncertainty and anxiety, and there are thousands of cases like it. This thing must be speeded up, otherwise a serious situation is going to arise in such districts as that which I represent. The other case is that of 30 men at work on the same piece of work. They were all discharged, 26 were allowed benefit and 4 were not. There is no amount of explanation which will satisfy men on points like that, and it is no surprise to me to hear of men going into the Exchange, tearing up their cards and washing their hands of the whole business. I trust that the Committee to which reference was made at Question Time will report soon, and that the right hon. Gentleman will bring in a Bill at the earliest possible moment to amend that Section.
    I should like to refer to the question of juvenile unemployment centres. I know the Minister is sympathetic to this scheme and I hope he will put up a strong fight with the Treasury and succeed in having it extended. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley described it as tomfoolery, but the work that was done was not tomfoolery. I only wish we could have a great deal more work of the kind done. but the hon. Member was right when he said it was only tinkering with the scheme. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will collaborate with the Board of Education, and, in view of the immense national loss which has taken place in the physical, mental and moral deterioration
    1636
    of all these lads and girls, have a really comprehensive scheme set on foot, and that he will go to these authorities who have not set up schemes already and encourage them to do so. It is a most unfortunate thing that the scheme is allowed to lapse even temporarily. I am glad to know there are some authorities who are keeping the scheme going, even though the whole cost will fall on the rates. That is a remarkable testimony to the value of the work. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will work with the Board of Education, and on these lines set up a scheme which will do something to stop the tremendous national loss which is taking place.
    Lieut.-Colonel GRANT MORDEN: I am very much disappointed at the statement made to-day by the Minister of Labour. It was a doleful statement, with the accent on the dole. He does not seem to promise us anything better for the coming winter than we had last winter, and if he has no better proposals than those he has submitted to the House, I do not see anything better this coming winter either, and that I am sure the country will not stand. To-day the country is looking for something better from a Government headed by a man who is known as a business man, and including men who are supposed to have business knowledge. You may camouflage the word "dole," and the right hon. Gentleman says it is not the right word to use, but those who are drawing their money in this way will never recognise it in any other sense than as a dole, and as such it is certainly undermining the morale of our workpeople. The schemes proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, as far as I can see, are almost ridiculous, and I must agree with the hon. Member who said, "Why take care of 200,000 when there are a million more that we have to think of?" Surely that is right. We must take care of all these men and women, and not only a portion of them. My right hon. Friend explained fairly fully about the Unemployment Grants Committee and what they propose to do. In some ways he did not seem very clear on the matter himself. I noticed that his dates were wrong in one or two of the statements he made. I have a letter from the Town Clerk of Chiswick in which he refers to the unemployment relief work which the council were asked by a circular

    1637
    dated 1st June, 1922, to make provision in any way possible for taking care of the unemployed. That circular, as my right hon. Friend stated, provided that for revenue-producing work the State would pay one-half of the interest for a period of five years, and for non-revenue-producing work 65 per cent. of half the amount for a period not exceeding 15 years.
    Sir M. BARLOW: Interest and sinking fund.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: Yes. The Council of Chiswick looked about to see what they could do, and found there was a great requirement there for baths and wash-houses, which it is generally admitted are not revenue-producing enterprises. They put this forward, but it was challenged by the Committee on the point as to which category it would come under. To save time, they went ahead, purchased the land, put in the drains and foundations, and called for tenders. In the meantime, they received a letter, dated in May this year, stating that the conditions had been changed, and that this Committee were prepared to guarantee 50 per cent. of the interest of semi-revenue-producing schemes as my right hon. Friend explained to the House to-day. Meantime they had received tenders amounting to £2,500 more than the estimated amount, and bringing the total to about £16,000, and they applied to be brought under this circular letter sent out by this Committee in May. The reply was a refusal to bring them under it because they had applied originally under the letter of June, 1922, and they had gone ahead in a patriotic way, and had not settled the matter. When this further letter comes in and they ask to come under the scheme which, to begin with, they thought they were entitled to come under and which is much better, namely, 65 per cent., they are refused. If the Committee is going to act in this way they are not going to help and encourage local authorities to provide work for the unemployed; of that I am quite certain. I do beg the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Health to look into this case, to see that it is rectified, and also that similar applications from other local authorities in this country are treated in the right manner.
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    My right hon. Friend referred to the Trade Facilities Act as having been a great success. I am very sorry to say that I consider it has been a great failure. Under this Act, which was passed in 1921—nearly two years ago now—there was a total altogether of £50,000,000 provided for trade facilities in the form of guarantees, not money advances, but simply as Government guarantees. In these two years the total amount that had been used is only about £26,000,000, a trifling amount compared with the vast need of this country. I am not by any means blaming the Committee that administered and looked after these credits'. I believe Sir Robert Kindersley is Chairman, and I am quite certain that Committee have used their best judgment in every way, but I consider the system is wrong, for this reason: this Committee have nothing to gain by what they do, but a great deal to lose if they make a mistake and money is lost to the Government. It is not reasonable to ask a body of private citizens to undertake work of this kind from which they have nothing to gain, while if they make a mistake in granting a guarantee and the enterprise should turn out a failure, they will be blamed by the country for being bad business men and bad bankers for having recommended such advance. I submit to the Government that the Treasury itself should be willing to take the responsibility. They can set up whatever internal machinery they like to deal with this matter, but I believe that the Treasury and the Government should take the responsibility and not put it upon the shoulders of private citizens. I cannot think of any other way, but I do know that when you consider that in two years, under this Trade Facilities Act, only £26,000,000 has been used, to any man who knows anything of banking, trade, or commerce in this country, it is an absolute failure.
    Sir M. BARLOW: Might I just correct one point on which, quite unconsciously, I may have misled the House? I was informed that the figure was £26,000,000, and I gave that figure to the House, but I understand there to have been provided a further £1,500,000, which raises the figure to £27,500,000. I should have stated that fact to the House.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: Then my right hon. Friend referred to the great

    1639
    success of the Exports Credits Scheme. The Exports Credits Scheme was started on 7th September, 1919, nearly four years ago. Under that scheme there was a credit—it was not voted at that time but was authorised afterwards in this Chamber—of £26,000,000. Of that amount the total utilised to date is £13,346,000 odd, which is the last figure I can get from the Department, and of that amount £10,000,000 has only been sanctioned very recently. How it can be considered that that scheme has been a success when in nearly four years up to the last few days only three or four million pounds has been used, I fail to understand. Whether it is the red tape of the Department or not I do not know. I have had no experience of it myself, but I can only say that there is something in the way in which it is administered that prevents merchants and manufacturers in this country from taking advantage of it. otherwise surely with the banking conditions as they are, with it almost impossible to obtain a bank loan to-day advantage would have been taken of this money voted for credit purposes. There must be something wrong in the way in which this credit is administered, and therefore I cannot agree at all with my right hon. Friend that this Exports Credits Scheme has been a success. We have a very definite prospect of passing through—unless, as we all realise, something is done—one of the worst winters of unemployment we have experienced since the War. Therefore, we have to think, not of small schemes, but of big schemes. The European position is worse to-day than it has ever been. We cannot say what is going to happen, but those of us engaged in trading and commerce are certain that it is going to take, no matter what happens, a long time before conditions are re-established on the Continent. Therefore, we have to look about and see what we can do to tide over the interval until conditions are stabilised again. I must confess that the schemes proposed by the Government do not for one moment satisfy me as meeting, not adequately, not in the slightest way, the conditions we have to face. I think there are many factors contributing to our present position. For many things the Government are naturally not to blame.
    1640
    To-day a great quantity of goods is being dumped in here from Germany which is upsetting our manufacturers. I fail to understand some of the recent activities of hon. Gentlemen on the opposite benches in trying to revive that old shibboleth, Free Trade, at a time when the industries of this country are suffering as they are. In my own constituency there were prosperous tyre works employing large numbers of workpeople, but which to-day are practically closed down. At Chiswick there is a great engineering works which formerly employed 4,000 men. It was a very successful motor manufacturing works, but to-day there is hardly a man employed, while in the adjoining street one can see great packing cases up and down the street, and inside are American cars which have been dumped into this country. At the same time, skilled mechanics and other men formerly employed in that factory are walking about looking for a job and existing on the dole. That is the position, through the dumping of foreign manufactured goods in this country.
    When I first came to this country, I was a Free Trader. I was brought up as a Free Trader. I was a Sir Wilfred Laurier Free Trader. When I came to England, to my utter astonishment, I found at my first breakfast that my tea was taxed, my sugar was taxed. I found that everything that could not be produced in this country was taxed, and everything that could be produced here was let in free. And you call it Free Trade England! What happened when Sir Wilfred Laurier came into power in Canada? He took the tariff off all raw materials and everything that could not be produced in Canada, but he increased the duty on everything that could be manufactured in Canada. As a result, he made Canada an industrial country, as well as a wheat-producing country. Today there is no unemployment in Canada, there is no unemployment in the United States, there is no unemployment in France, there is no unemployment in Germany, there is no unemployment in any country which has Protection, while this Free Trade country is the one country that has got unemployment.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am afraid that this would require legislation.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: I do not wish to be out of order. I could not

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    understand the statement made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He wants to throw open the doors of this country to unrestricted alien immigration. Here we are with a great unemployment problem in this country, and he wants to bring in these aliens—who are accustomed to work under conditions which, thank God! no British workman will work under, and, I hope, never will work under—in order to compete with our people. I cannot understand his policy.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Of course you cannot. I cannot understand yours.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: I wonder if some of my hon. Friends on the Labour benches realise what the boilermakers' strike has cost this country. Millions of pounds have been lost in work, and hundreds of thousands of men have been thrown out of work as a result of this strike. Our ships have to be sent abroad to be repaired because of the strike. Nothing hurts the British shipowner more than having to send his ship to a foreign port, and to spend money on repairs there because of this unauthorised strike of boilermakers. The founder of any business, the creator of any enterprise must possess three things, ability, imagination and courage. Our Prime Minister inherited his possessions in a great industrial firm in this country, which was founded by his ancestors who had ability, imagination and courage, and those of us in my party put our confidence in him as a business man leading our party. As one of his humble followers, I beg him to put the same ability, imagination and courage which his forefathers showed in the establishment of the great industry of which he became the principal inheritor into pro viding a scheme or schemes for this country to lead us out of the black future, and to show us that instead of going on with doles, instead of going on with this unemployment, and instead of facing these repeated difficulties, we can have revenue-earning work and employment, and not doles.
    I should like to refer to the responsibilities of the Prime Minister and the Government in regard to the ex-service men, which has been handed down to them. It is a disgraceful thing that these ex-service men should be seeking employment, and failing to get honest
    1642
    employment. There is not a day that I have not applications from men from the ranks, and officers, and even field officers who cannot get employment of any kind in the nature of honest work. It is disgraceful that this country of ours should not carry out her promise-to these men, and I beg the Government that whatever schemes they bring forward they should give first preference to these ex-service men. I fully agree with the remarks of the right hon. Member for North West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara), and I hope the Government will take this matter seriously into consideration.
    In November, 1920, I spoke on the Unemployment Belief Bill, and at that time I called the attention of the Government to the different ways in which they could provide employment instead of doles. I apologise to the Minister of Labour for using a word to which he objects. I mentioned, amongst other things, the cost of discharging bulk cargoes in this country. I will take iron ore, which is the basis of the great industry of iron and steel in this country. I pointed out that a ship could be turned in eight hours in a port like Sydney, Cape Breton, and that it took 15 to 30 days to discharge her in this country. Nothing has been done regarding the harbour equipment for handling these bulk cargoes. If you are going to keep a ship even for 10 days, as against eight hours, anyone who knows anything about transportation will know what the cost of the freight will be. The cost of that iron ore is doubled by transportation charges, and, as the ore is the basis for iron and steel, the result is that iron and steel manufacturers are put to a terrible disadvantage in meeting competition owing to the high price. That is only one case. I could give the House a great many instances which would surprise them as to the cost of discharging bulk cargoes in this country compared with the cost of discharging bulk cargoes in the United States and Canada.
    Then you have other ways of utilising Government credit. For instance, in the electrification of railways, suburban and main lines, to which reference has been made, enormous savings in transportant costs could be made. Our terminal systems are ridiculously behind America. The cost of transportation in this country is probably higher than the cost of transportation in any other country of the

    1643
    world. The higher the cost of transportation the higher the cost of food. Reduce the cost of transportation and you reduce the cost of food, and the cost of manufacture, and put this country in a better position to compete with the markets of the world. Therefore, schemes to improve our transportation system, our terminals, our piers, and our wharves are works on which the Government will never lose their money, and the benefit of which will come home to everyone in the country. Therefore I beg the Government to give consideration to these schemes, and to force on the railways, docks companies, and all those who control transportation, the use of the most modern methods of transportation. This would give employment to hundreds of thousands of men, and would be a lasting benefit to the trade of the country, the effect of which would be felt down to the smallest boy working in the country.
    May I submit a few suggestions to the Government? The credit for export trade facilities should be increased to at least £100,000,000, and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour should be a responsible Committee to administer the scheme. The Government should not delegate their powers in this matter to gentlemen in the City. I am sure that this House would not criticise them if they made a mistake, if they lost £10,000,000 of the £100,000,000 in providing employment. The saving of the dole and the profits resulting from the other £90,000,000 would make up even for the loss of £10,000,000. But let the Government take the responsibility and I am sure that fair play, which is one of the national characteristics of which we are so proud, would be shown, and they would never be criticised if a mistake or two were made. Then again they should let the Governments of the overseas Dominions know that if they or any responsible individual would put forward any sound scheme we are prepared to guarantee their bonds, provided that the bulk of the money is spent in this country with our manufacturers. Let them feel that we look upon them as an integral part of the Empire. Hon. Members have read the cable received by Lord Long from the Prime Minister of
    1644
    Australia. I can assure the House that if the Government took some practical means of letting the overseas Dominions know that we are going to combine with them in guaranteeing any important public work we can amalgamate closely our industrial and financial interests which will be not only a good thing for us here, but a good thing overseas and for the British Empire. So far as the export credit scheme is concerned I would like to see the barnacles cut away from it for there are barnacles upon it.
    The most important matter of all is that the Prime Minister should appoint a Committee of business men representing all the great industrial interests of this country, including shipping and transportation, and let them propose economic remunerative schemes. I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson), who said, "Why bother about revenue-producing schemes?" We are not in a position to waste vast sums on anything but revenue-producing schemes; the hon. Member seems to lose eight of the fact that the great capital resources of this country have been decimated by the War, and we have not got those reserves which we used to have and therefore if we are going to use the credit of the country we must see that it comes back to us. Therefore if the Government appoint a Committee of business men to prepare different schemes that will be revenue producing in the course of a few years, we may have to pay interest in the meantime, but it would be better to do that than to pay out millions in doles to the unemployed, seeing the morale of our workmen going down and down, and our great business organisations rusting also. They would not be in a position when normal times come back, and the revival of trade comes, to take advantage of their opportunities. I hope that the Government will take some steps on these lines. If they do it will mean that they will benefit the ex-service men by giving them employment, by seeing that they get first preference in every instance, and that they will have employment instead of doles. We will have our industrial wheels well oiled to meet the revival of trade when it comes, when we can once more put our country back into the proud position of being the foremost financial and industrial country in the world.
    Mr. SEXTON: I have listened for the last four years to Debates on unemployment, and during that period have heard some very interesting innovations in debate, but the most unique innovation is the speech, to which we have just listened, of the hon. Member for Brent-ford (Lieut.-Colonel Morden). It is rather amusing to hear a gentleman with an American down-east accent denouncing American importation.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Canadian!
    Mr. SEXTON: I beg his pardon. I did not notice it, but, as I have said, for the last four solid years I have listened to Debates on this question of unemployment, and for 20 years I have been a student of the problem of unemployment. The only thing that temporarily solved it was the great War. The gruesome irony of it, that the only thing which temporarily solved unemployment was the sending of men out to kill somebody else! An hon. Member above the Gangway to-night called attention to the fact that during the War Government control was in operation. If the Minister of Labour were in his place I would remind him that at least Government control during the War did temporarily settle the unemployment problem, and that it was only when we returned to private enterprise that we had 1,500,000 people unemployed—[HON.MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am stating what are substantial and historical facts. Mention has been made of strikes and lock-outs, and it has been said that they have in some measure been responsible for unemployment. The hon. Member for Brentford said that we on this side loved strikes and lock-outs. I happen to be one of those responsible for the guidance of a big industrial organization—
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: On a point of Order. I quite absolved hon. Members on those benches from the unauthorised strikes. Also, I do not see why the Canadian accent should be criticised in this House. It is no different from the Lancashire accent, the Scottish accent, or any other.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of Order.
    Mr. SEXTON: I have already apologised to the hon. and gallant Member for my mistake. I can only repeat that
    1646
    apology. It is not a question of authorised or unauthorised strikes, but of strikes as a whole. A paid trade union official during a strike has got to work 24 hours out of the 24. When there is no strike, he has got a soft time of it, so they say. The incident referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Brentford, that of the boilermakers' strike, which was an unofficial strike, was absolutely incorrect. It was an official strike.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: Is it not a fact that the boilermakers' strike—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has occupied a very large slice of the time of the House. He must not take up any more.
    10.0 P.M.
    Mr. SEXTON: Let me assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman I do not like strikes, either official or unofficial. I do not think there is a man worthy of the position of a leader of organised labour who would profess he loved a strike. In fact, I detest strikes. There are unofficial strikes, and there is unrest amongst the working men to-day. You have 1,500,000 men, the bulk of them ex-service men who have served their country, and who came back here after saving their country, who now find themselves out of a job. Unofficial strikes there are, and the position of those men is exploited by irresponsible men who have nothing to do with the industry. I want to say, quite frankly, that the responsibility does not rest on them alone. It rests on hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House as well. The House knows of a persistent conspiracy in this House, on more than one occasion, to abuse the rules of the House by introducing Bills, by denouncing responsible leaders, who are trying to prevent strikes, and creating suspicion in the minds of decent men in the organisation who are amenable to argument. It makes it difficult for responsible people in the unions to control the men when you have hon. Gentlemen, under the Ten Minutes Rule, attacking us inside the House, and when outside you have irresponsible men, who are not attached to any trade union, attacking us. Both have the same object in view, namely, to smash organised labour, and both are working from a different standpoint. That is our position. Is it any wonder that unofficial strikes are created?

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    I heard the speech of the Minister of Labour to-night, and it was simply an extension of the old principle—doles to the municipalities; create more work. I would remind the House that under our present economic position the one cry is—we heard it from the hon. and gallant Member for Brentford—"We have customers who cannot buy our goods." Is not that the crux of the whole position? Before you begin to produce anything at all you must make the economic conditions such that the people can purchase. The 1,500,000 unemployed men and women in this country cannot buy food or clothes, and we have got to provide them with the means to become customers. The hon. and gallant Gentleman told us there was no unemployment in Canada. Where did he get his information from? We were told by an hon. Member above the Gangway that the only solution was emigration to the Colonies. Can he name any of our Colonies where there is not unemployment to-day? [An HON. MEMBER: "I can name one."] Well, I should like to hear it, for up to the present I have never met anybody who says that the towns and cities in the Dominions are not in the same position in regard to unemployment as we are, and that it is not as acute.
    Lieut.-Colonel MORDEN: No.
    Mr. SEXTON: I should like some evidence of that. The problem of unemployment is there, as it is here, and we shall never relieve it until we get down to the root cause, which is the economic condition of the people. We must give there the wherewithal to purchase and to become customers. We are suffering today in every direction from under-consumption. The sooner we get down to this the better. If winter comes—and it is coming—and this problem is not solved, it may be solved in a more drastic manner than we in this House anticipate. If unemployment grows, as it is bound to grow, the difficulty of legislators and of responsible men in the labour movement will be increased. To-day we have men rebelling against their own organisations, and I happen to be one of those who profess to be a guiding spirit in one of the organisations. We have done our best. It was said to-night by the hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones) that it was no
    1648
    wonder these men revolted against the reduction. Like him, I am of the opinion that the figures of the Labour Ministry require some investigation, but I also say that, no matter what those figures are, they represent the same machinery and the same machine which we use for an increase, and we cannot have it both ways. An agreement was signed with the instructions of the rank and file, and it was acting for them that we signed the agreement, and we would not be worthy of the name of representatives of the people, we would not be worthy of respect as parties to collective bargaining, if we did not insist on the agreement being carried out to the letter. I say that, because I believe it to be the right way to conduct business between workmen and employers. The system requires it. The system may be bad, and let us not forget, at the same time, there is some truth in what the hon. Member for Silvertown said, that these men do not get a week's wage, but get a day or a day and half or two days' work in the week, and whatever is taken off is bound to tell at the end of the week. The present economic system is fitly described by Lowell in words which were never truer than they are to-day:
    "Have ye founded your thrones and altars, then
    On the bodies and souls of living men?
    And think ye that building shall endure
    Which shelters the noble and crushes the poor?
    With gates of silver and bars of gold
    Ye have fenced My sheep from their Father's fold;
    I have heard the dropping of their tears
    In heaven these eighteen hundred years."
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): We have just heard the speech from the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) which once more demonstrates the sound principle and honourable spirit which has always been characteristic of him. I rise at this hour not that I intend to take up very much of the time of the House, but because I believe there are some other topics which hon. Members desire to raise before the Debate closes, and I am anxious to give them time to develop what they have to say. I do not think it is surprising that the discussion, throughout the whole of this afternoon, has ranged round this ancient subject of

    1649
    unemployment, which has hung over the country like a nightmare for the last three years and which, by general consent, unhappily seems likely to cause grave anxiety during the winter which is before us. All parties alike recognise the gravity of the situation, and I am happy to be able to agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for the Hillhead Division of Glasgow (Sir R. Horne) when he said it is being treated in no party spirit, but that everybody who has contributed to the discussion, has endeavoured to make some suggestion as to how to arrive at a solution. I think my right hon. Friend did a service to this House and the country, in drawing attention to the contrast between the industrial situation in this country and that in Germany and France. It is not only that our former customers have not the cash or the credit with which to purchase our goods. It is also that they have lost their confidence, and they feel until some settlement of the European tangle can be made, there is always the danger that prices may fall away again, and they may be left with depreciated stocks, and it is because we recognise the bearing of events on the Continent upon the industrial situation in this country, and, indeed, throughout the whole world, that we felt we could not maintain an attitude of entire passivity in the matter, but that it was incumbent on us to try to take some forward step and to see if we could not hasten progress towards that final settlement and harmony among the nations which we all desire.
    The discussion has ranged round a variety of aspects of the unemployment question, and one of these points which has been raised by several speakers has been the position of those boards of guardians who for a long time now have found the burden upon them increasing owing to the relief they have had to give to the unemployed. This question of the so-called necessitous areas has been before me and my predecessors, and it is one to which I personally have given a good deal of consideration. The House may remember that some time ago a proposition was put forward in the shape of a formula under which it was suggested that an Exchequer grant might be distributed among the more necessitous unions. At the time I pointed out a number of discrepancies, inconsistencies and difficulties
    1650
    in the adoption of that formula, and I told the deputation which saw me upon the subject that I was quite willing that they should appoint a few of their number to discuss with the officials of the Ministry of Health whether it was possible to find any formula which would get over the objections which I saw in the one then before me. Another formula was devised and I have had that also under consideration, but I am bound to say, although a good many of the objections to the original scheme were overcome, I do not think even the amended scheme was one which I could satisfactorily recommend to the Cabinet or the House for acceptance. First, it was very incomplete and, even as it stood, it would have involved a grant of over £3,500,000 for one year for 61 unions, and that did not take into account London and a number of other unions which would have had to be included, with the result that the total cost would have been brought up to a very large figure indeed.
    There was another objection not of the financial kind. In the new formula, which was based upon the number of persons relieved, the question of unemployment was for the first time given a secondary place, and the scheme was really based not upon exceptional conditions due to unemployment, but upon general inequalities in the burden of rates in different parts of the country. That takes the question altogether out of the region of the temporary and takes it into the region of the permanent, and if you are going to consider any scheme for a permanent equalisation or a partial equalisation of rating burdens it is quite clear that it must be preceded by some reform of the present system of valuation and assessment. As long as the assessment is based on different systems in different parts of the country, it is impossible to find a common basis. I confess that personally I see very grave objection to any system of free grants from the Exchequer to local authorities. In any system of that sort, it is almost impossible to avoid giving the most money to those areas which spend the most, irrespective of whether their expense is wise and proper or whether it is extravagant and exceptional. And, after all, our system of local government is not based upon a system of nursing. It is based upon the idea that local authorities should exercise responsibility, and that if

    1651
    they make mistakes they themselves should bear the burden of their mistakes, and learn from their experience. I think it would be a bad day for local government if they were to feel that the cost and expense of any errors which they might make would be found from some central source, and that they themselves would get off practically scot free.
    Therefore, I came to the conclusion that it would not be possible for us to accede to the request to make free grants to Poor Law authorities on these lines. But we recognise that some further assistance is necessary to enable the authorities to relieve the immediate rate burden in areas where the distress has been prolonged and is still serious, and we have decided, therefore, to make further financial provision for the extension of the existing facilities under which advances by way of loan are made by the Ministry of Health and by the Scottish Board of Health, on the recommendation of the Committee which is presided over by Sir Harry Goschen. I think it is generally understood that in some of these areas the burden of rates upon local industries—a burden which is not, like Income Tax, dependent upon profits made, but which has to be borne by the industries whether they make profits or not—at present is so heavy that it really forms a serious handicap to the industries and prevents them even from getting upon their legs and regaining the prosperity which would enable them in time even to bear the heavy burdens they do now. Under existing arrangements, advances are made only to authorities which may satisfy the Committee that they are not able to borrow in the market, but it is proposed to authorise the Committee in future to recommend the granting of loans of such amount and for such periods as the circumstances require in the case of the more heavily burdened authorities, where the Department is satisfied that reasonably efficient and economical administration is practised, and where some immediate relief in the current rate burden is essential.
    The Committee will be authorised in suitable cases to recommend that payment of interest and repayment of the loans should be postponed for a period, and that before the expiry of that period the terms of repayment should be
    1652
    reviewed, in consultation with the local authority, in the light of the circumstances then prevailing. Each case will be fully considered on its merits, regard being had to all the local circumstances, and such arrangements made as will give immediate relief in the way best suited to meet the case. Of course, I quite realise that the guardians would prefer to have a form of relief which would relieve them from any anxiety in the future, but that would not be altogether consistent with the principles which I laid down at the beginning of my observations, and I am satisfied that by the method which I have indicated to the House we shall be able to give very substantial relief to those localities which need it most, and that we shall be able, when the time comes, to review the circumstances as they exist then and to enable, possibly, the repayment to be spread over a longer period, if necessary, or to make such other arrangements as may seem desirable.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: Will this assistance be available for local authorities before the next rate has to be levied in September?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think it will, but we will endeavour to make it available as early as possible. I would like to come to one or two of the criticisms made, I think, generally in a friendly and helpful spirit, by some hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) said—and his criticism was repeated by other hon. Members—that when all was said and done, we were only dealing with a small part of the problem. I am afraid that will always be so when you have unemployment on this sort of scale. Any schemes of relief, whatever form they may take, are more or less artificial. They are not the natural course of business. They either mean that business has to be created or brought forward earlier than in the natural course of things it would have been brought forward, and it is extraordinary how difficult it is to find schemes which will provide work for a really substantial number of men, and, at the same time, not absorb an altogether disproportionate amount of capital.

    1653
    We have gone a good deal further than has ever been gone before. We have recognised to the full what has been said so often, that it is far better to provide work for people, and especially work at their own trade, than merely to maintain them by means of payments, whether those payments are called unemployment insurance benefits, or direct relief from the guardians. We are anxious to minimise that form of relief to the utmost, and to give them what work they can do to keep their self-respect, and, if possible, keep their hand in at their own trade. It is with that idea that we have so far extended our terms to local authorities as to encourage them to undertake revenue-producing schemes. What are these revenue-producing schemes? Take the extension of a power station, for example. That means work for a large number of skilled men at different trades. There is the building in the first place. There is the provision of the steel joists in the building, there is the timber work, there is furniture, there is electric machinery and equipment, and, in many ways, although the work may not be actually in the locality which has taken advantage of these terms, yet, taking the country as a whole, you get a substantial addition to the amount of work which is undertaken in the very best possible way. We have gone further than that, because, as my right hon. Friend has explained, we have extended these terms, or similar terms, to private undertakings, whether trading for profit or not, subject to the necessary safeguards, and I am glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman opposite felt that that was likely to be a fruitful source of employment.
    Then the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) did not seem to approve of this programme. He suggested that it would be far better to apply our money to non-revenue producing schemes than to revenue-producing schemes. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am quoting his words. But, in the first place, let me point out that revenue-producing schemes have the advantage that, in the future, they continue to provide more employment. So that you are serving a double purpose. Not only are you giving work in the trades and giving work to skilled men at their own trades, but you are diminishing pro tanto the amount of your problem for the future. The hon. Mem-
    1654
    ber for Seaham said, "What is the use of putting money into the extension of tramways, which are only tax-producing schemes, when you might be building new schools and new hospitals?" That is what he said.
    Mr. LANSBURY: What I understood my hon. Friend to do was to contrast the two schemes, revenue and non-revenue, to put one against the other.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think he did as a matter of fact. [HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Member for Seaham, I only want to put the case. After all, if a scheme is going to be revenue-producing, obviously the local authority does not require as much extra inducement to undertake it as if the scheme produced no revenue at all. Therefore we do not want so much for revenue-producing schemes as for non-revenue-producing; schemes. Let me put another consideration to hon. Members. It is all very well to talk about putting up buildings, but let me remind the House that only lately we were discussing a Housing Bill. What did we then hear from the Labour Benches? That the limiting factor was the labour available for housing in the country. But the suggestion here is to take from the building labour market a certain amount of labour that otherwise would be available for the development of tramway schemes which would open up new districts for houses and which will benefit everyone over a wide field.
    Mr. HARRIS: What about going on with schemes already in hand in London?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is a question which I cannot enter into. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we were satisfied with the response we had to the terms which we had put out. It is really too early to give a final reply to that question because we have not had time to examine all the schemes which have been put forward, and to say or not whether they can be accepted, but on the whole I think I may say we are very well satisfied with the response we have had from the local authorities. While, naturally, to begin with the larger number of schemes put forward were non-revenue-producing, now we are beginning to get from the local authorities revenue-producing schemes in larger numbers, and, on the whole, I think we

    1655
    may say that we have good reason to hope that the terms we have offered have been found to be satisfactory by the local authorities.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: What about extending the date?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Obviously, the Tight hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is desirable to get these schemes at the earliest possible moment, but that does not mean we are going to turn down schemes while there is time to negotiate. Some other criticisms have been directed to the Trade Facilities and Export Credits Scheme. Hon. Members have expressed surprise that greater use has not been made of these methods, but they must not overlook the fact that the depression in trade itself naturally tends to reduce the amount of the advantages to be derived from the schemes. There is another consideration which must not be lost sight of. Under the Export Credits Scheme the proposal is investigated by a Committee, and if they find it satisfactory and are willing to advance the necessary credit, it very often turns out that people say, "If this is good enough for the Export Credit people it is good enough for us," and then our scheme is not required. Our efforts, however, in such a case have served their purpose, and brought the trade, and we have reason to suppose that a considerable amount of business has been initiated in this way through the Export Credits Scheme, although it will never get the credit for it because it will not actually appear
    The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Peto) has asked me to press forward the improvement of canals. I have already explained that it is difficult to get anything done quickly in connection with canals because the ownership is so divided, and there are so many different interests concerned, and you cannot give public money to private enterprise in canals. Therefore the only way in which we can assist the improvement of our waterways is by going through some preliminary process under which these canals can be placed under some public trust or body, and it is these preliminary investigations which take so long and which have prevented us doing much except in the one scheme on the River Trent. Another scheme is under consideration in the Mid-
    1656
    lands, and we hope it may mature, although I am afraid it will not be available to give much employment before the coming winter.
    Mr. PETO: Is it not possible to speed up these negotiations, and bring pressure to bear on those who control these canals in order to get something done within the next few months?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think it is possible to do something of the kind, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport has this particular matter in hand, and he is doing his best to speed up the negotiations to which my hon. Friend has referred. Disappointment has been expressed that the Empire Settlement Scheme had not made greater progress, and it has been very truly said that that is only one side of the picture. This is a matter which has to be carried on in conjunction with the Governments of the Dominions, and we cannot assist emigrants to the Dominions at any greater rate than the Dominions are able to take them.
    The Dominions have their difficulties on their side, and they have housing difficulties as well as we have. They have themselves to do a certain amount of development before they are able to take these emigrants. The difficulty on this side has not been the finding of people who are desirous of going, or finding the financial assistance necessary to enable them to go, but it has been purely the difficulty which the Dominions have found in taking them at a faster rate. So far as the other suggestion of my right hon. Friend is concerned, i.e., that when the Imperial Conference takes place we should urge embarkation on some bold scheme of Empire settlement and development, I would like to assure him that the Government have the strongest desire and intention of carrying out a policy of that kind, and neither effort nor expense will be spared on our side to make such a scheme go through.
    I may say in conclusion there is too much of a tendency to rely on the Government, and the Government only to come to the assistance of the country in this crisis. After all, many successive Ministers have devoted themselves heart and soul to finding a solution of this problem, and their comparative failure to find a scheme which will absorb any

    1657
    substantial proportion of the unemployed shows the inherent difficulty of the Government in finding a real solution of the problem. A question was asked about the electrification of the railways, and the hon. and gallant Member for Brentford (Lieut.-Colonel Morden) suggests that the Government should force the railways to develop their lines. We have no power to do anything of the kind, and when my right hon. Friend asks whether we are satisfied with the despatch with which the railway companies are proceeding with electrification schemes, my answer is in the negative. We have made representations urging them to push forward their schemes at a greater rate. In some cases, no doubt, the plans are not ready, and I am sure one cannot electrify a line without doing an enormous amount of preparatory work. It is possible that that may delay certain schemes.
    Mr. J. JONES: They have had five years and £60,000,000 to do it with.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There is other work of a less important character which nevertheless might, I think, add a material contribution to the problem we had before us, in the way of the electrification of suburban and minor lines which I think the railway companies might undertake in quicker time. It is not a question of providing financial assistance. There can be no doubt here that the railway companies have ample resources with which to carry out these works. Why they do not carry them out, I do not know.
    Sir F. BANBURY: It would not pay.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not say that in every case it would pay, but there are cases in which it would pay hand somely, and there are other cases in which, if it would not pay at once, it would in a few years' time. I hope the directors of the railway companies will look upon this matter not solely from the point of view of an immediate return on their outlay. They have a certain responsibility to this country—and the provision of certain railway facilities in the neighbourhood of our towns and cities would go a long way towards assisting the housing problem itself. If they will only consider how much they might do to help the general prosperity of the country by schemes of the kind which
    1658
    have been suggested to them, I cannot help thinking that they will give their immediate and careful attention to the practicability of carrying them out at the very earliest date, and thereby place the country under a generous debt of obligation to them.

    PUBLIC HEALTH.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I hope the House will forgive me, at this late hour, if I introduce an entirely new subject into the Debate. I want to make an appeal, very briefly, on behalf of the sick, and suffering members of the community, and to ask the Minister of Health whether he has now any further information than that which he has already given relative to the anomaly—in fact, I may call it a scandal—in connection with hospital accommodation in this country. I do not know whether every Member of the House understands, the position, but, so far as I know it, it is that there are, in the Poor Law infirmaries of this country, 30,000 empty beds, while, on the other hand, there is the-anomaly of, I should imagine, not very many short of 100,000 people waiting for admission to the beds of the ordinary hospitals. In the case of one hospital in London, at this very moment, there are 300 persons on the waiting list for 15 beds, an average of 20 persons waiting for a single bed.
    I would not blame the Minister of Health at all if the case were not as I have stated. No one blames him, for instance, for the lack of accommodation in the voluntary hospitals. But I do think it is the duty of the Minister of Health to carry out the recommendations of the 1921 Committee of Inquiry which a previous Minister of Health set up in connection with this matter. There was sufficient evidence submitted then for any Minister of Health to act at once. The other day I asked the Minister a question on this very subject, and I was very disappointed indeed at the reply he gave; and I felt that, before the House adjourned, this subject should be raised once more, in order to try and induce the Minister to do something to remove the anomaly.
    The other point that I desire to raise-is in relation to the position which has arisen at Gloucester. I do not want to argue to-night the question whether vac-

    1659
    cination or otherwise is the correct thing, but I do want to ask the Minister whether he is aware that in the town of Gloucester employers of labour have given notice of dismissal to their employés who are not willing to be vaccinated. I do not want to lead the House into a heated debate on the question of Vaccination; the point that I want to raise is a specific one. I would think twice before I challenged the decision of Parliament as to whether all persons in this country should be vaccinated; but I decline to allow an employer of labour, simply because he employs an individual, to utilise powers that were never given to him to compel his employé to be vaccinated. He has no title at all to do so, and the question I want to put to the Minister is, whether he knows of any powers anywhere which an employer may possess in law to dismiss his employé because he declines to be vaccinated. I know full well that an employer can dismiss his workman at any time without giving any reason at all; but we do want to protest, on this side of the House, against an employer anywhere doing what I have suggested is being done, and not on a small scale, because the information at my disposal is, that this is being done on a large scale in Gloucester. I trust that the Minister will be able to come to the rescue of these people who have a strong objection to being vaccinated, because some people, at any rate, think that the whole thing, which has been boosted in the Press as the small-pox scare, is merely a "stunt" on behalf of some newspapers.
    The other question I want to raise is more important almost than either of the two I have mentioned. The Minister of Health has received a deputation this week from the Lancashire Insurance Committee, supported by Members of this House, relative to an arrangement which it was suggested should be made between Mr. Spahlinger and the Ministry of Health. I am sorry to learn that the result of the negotiations so far is not very encouraging, and I wanted to urge the Minister to tell the House and the country what is the exact situation in regard to the negotiations which have taken place already. I feel sure he will agree with me that the treatment of consumption has reached what I may term a deadlock. Sanatorium treatment after all
    1660
    is merely a treatment to ward off the disease. It does not, so far as I understand it, cure the disease at all. It provides a man with fresh air, gives him good food and decent shelter. In fact, all you do in a sanatorium is to teach him to live-properly. The treatment does not eliminate the disease from the patients system. I am a layman in these things, though I am secretary to a fairly large approved society, but as a layman I have come to the conclusion that you cannot go further in the treatment of consumption merely by providing sanatorium treatment, and so far as I know the Lancashire Insurance Committee have come to the same conclusion. It is now a case, I am told, for the bacteriologist to come in, and I understand that is where Mr. Spahlinger's case ought to be considered. We have a standing army in this country of 200,000 consumptives, and approximately 42,000 die every year. There are Members of the House who come in intimate connection with young men and women—and this is after all in the main a young person's disease—and see them lingering on into their graves, and I am sure every Member of the House, if he could be convinced that the Spahlinger treatment was the right thing, would be willing to support it. The deputation asked the Minister to support Mr. Spahlinger by way of a grant or subsidy, I believe, and not only by way of purchasing the serum. I believe the Minister has gone so far as to say he is prepared to set aside a separate institution with 40 or 50 patients upon whom experiments could be made with the new treatment, but I understand that Mr. Spahlinger is not able financially to accept an agreement of this kind. When I am asked, inside and outside the House, where are we going to get the money from, may I remind the Minister that we are losing every year a sum at least equivalent to £150,000,000 in loss of human labour and energy in sickness or disablement alone, and I should prefer that this House adopted the attitude that the prevention is better than the cure of disease.
    I trust the Minister of Health will agree with those people who have been in contact with Mr. Spahlinger that he is a man of genius. Genius, as a rule, cannot find money. Genius is never a financier, and if this man has found a cure for consump-

    1661
    tion, although he is not a Britisher, I want to appeal to the Minister to see that the Ministry of Health of this country shall come to his aid in a small way financially in order that we may secure his treatment and prevent consumption as far as ever we can. I feel sure those of our people who have taken any interest at all in the Spahlinger case will be delighted to hear Something from the Minister of Health which will give us some hope. The Lancashire people in particular are very interested in this matter. They ask the Minister of Health if the Lancashire Insurance Committee may be allowed to spend part of their money in trying to secure this treatment for Lancashire patients. I do hope, if the Minister does not see his way clear to give a State subsidy in this matter, he will allow the Lancashire Insurance Committee to do something in the way they desire. After all, my experience has been that you can very often buy health if you are prepared to pay for it. We are not, apparently, prepared to pay for it so far, and I trust that the Minister will be able to say something hopeful to the thousands of people in this country suffering from consumption, especially to the parents of consumptive children, and that he will give us something that will help to cure this dread disease.
    Mr. MARCH: I, like the last speaker, am interested in consumption very considerably. We get instructions from the Ministry of Health from time to time asking the local authorities to do all they can to stop the spread of tuberculosis. We get dispensaries set up for the treatment of tuberculosis, and then the authorities are called up about the expenditure which is being incurred in connection with running these dispensaries. We in our district have had a big increase of tuberculosis patients since the War, and we have had the sanction of the Ministry to have two doctors to attend to these patients. These patients cannot be attended to and looked after in accordance with the instructions of the Ministry without them, but when it comes to the question of the summer holiday, instead of having two doctors to look after them, we can only have one. The consequence is that those patients are to be neglected for two months as the doctors take their holidays. It seems rather peculiar that
    1662
    it is necessary to look after them for 10 months of the year with two doctors, and for the other two months of the year with one doctor.
    We are also informed that the expenditure cannot be allowed to find the nourishment. Extra nourishment is not to be granted to these patients. I rather think the Ministry do not quite understand that in a district like ours probably 15 per cent. of the people are casual workers or the condition they must be in with that miserable casual employment which, as has been said on another question, very often is only one day, and not that, per week. However they think they can keep health and strength in their bodies by such miserable amounts as they get because of the shortage of employment I do not know. We are also informed that we must not provide shelters and bedsteads for these patients. What are we to provide? Are we to put them on the floor? Where are they to go? There is not to be decent consideration shown to these people who are sick and ill. Then, going from that, we claim that the Government should shoulder its responsibilities by looking after the people who are unemployed and not able to get the wherewithal to live, make it a national question, and not put so much imposition on the local authorities, which are already overburdened, as we are, in connection with cases of this description. We have maternity and child welfare centres, which have done excellent work. We have had great credit given to us for the work done. Not only is it being done by paid health visitors, but by voluntary people who have rendered great assistance in connection with the matter. We have doctors attending the children as they arrive at the maternity centres. A doctor frequently orders that a child shall have milk. We can give milk to the child, but we have to investigate all the circumstances in connection with the condition of the home and the income of the family. We can only give the milk to children up to the age of three. Then they are passed over to the local authority, and when it comes to a question of these children requiring milk, we have to cut down. There is a scale which has been circulated by the Ministry, and which has not been withdrawn, and although it has been proved in our locality that we have not exceeded

    1663
    the scale, we are informed that we have not to spend so much money in milk as we have been spending. One could hope that the Government would have been honest enough to say that there is no money, instead of issuing Circulars of the kind mentioned. The Minister told the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley that "the Circular has not been withdrawn." It has not been withdrawn, but when we are acting up to the Circular we are told that we cannot have the money in order to give the milk. That means that we are going to have an increase in the death-rate. In a locality like ours, with so much casual employment, it is not a question of "just this time," but the people are very poor all the time, and this nourishment is badly needed, especially when we have so many unemployed and so many under-employed. I hope the Minister will look into this matter and help the local authorities who desire to do all they can to keep people's bodies and souls together so that we shall not have so much illness.
    11.0 P.M.
    Lieut.-Colonel HODGE: I should like to supplement the statement made by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) regarding the attitude of the Ministry towards Mr. Spahlinger. I should like the Minister to reconsider the whole of the facts and to reconsider the decision at which he arrived yesterday. The facts, very briefly, are these: Mr. Spahlinger is the discoverer of a cure for tuberculosis. The cure in 80 per cent. of the cases treated has proved to be efficacious. Mr. Spahlinger, as very often happens to men who devote their lives to science, put in and spent all the money that he had, all that his father had and all that his family had in order to arrive at the results which he has obtained, and to-day we find that he is in difficulties—I do not think it is any good mincing matters—to the extent of about £100,000. It might be said that the man is a bankrupt. That is not quite the way to look at it. He is not an ordinary bankrupt who has spent his substance in riotous living. Neither in fact is he a bankrupt. A trustee in bankruptcy looking at his assets and liabilities would say "You have here assets worth £12,000 which are secured to a bank for a debt," but what are his assets? A
    1664
    cure on which the medical profession—I am not a medical man—pronounce a blessing all over the world, I am told. That could be commercialised. That could be sold to a commercial undertaking which works for dividends, and nothing else. But that is the last thing that Mr. Spahlinger wants. He knows that if this cure were commercialised, the possibilities of obtaining a cure for poor people would be minimised seriously. The hon. Member for South Poplar (Mr. March) said a moment ago that money would buy health. Unfortunately, that is not the case. A little thought on his part would prove that that is ridiculous. That is speaking generally But in this particular case I bow to what my hon. Friend says. Mr. Spahlinger does not want that. He desires that the poor should have the first claim on this cure.
    Mr. Spahlinger states his entire liabilities at £100,000. Only £24,000 of that amount is pressing. But debts which are not pressing to-day are pressing to-morrow. So for our purpose we regard the amount due as £100,000. In return for that, we may obtain his laboratory, the whole of his estate, his father's estate, which is at present in the hands of the bank on mortgage. So that this young man can get on with his research, he is handing them over to you on trust for 10 years. I am only anxious that it should not become the property of some other people. He only asks further for a sum of money to be allowed him to continue his research. He asks for £10,000. He has gone the length of saying that you may appoint a Committee to record how the money is spent, to prove clearly that none of it is spent on himself. That is going a long way when we recollect what is this cure. The proper question arises, How is he going to live? He says that his wife, who, I may mention, acts as his secretary, and has given him enormous assistance, his father, mother, and sister, are dependent on him. I have no compunction in bringing out all these facts, because I want the House and the country to know them. All he asks is a bare £2,000 a year. It is bare when there are five people to live on it. It is not in the hard crude commercial sense a business proposition. The business proposition always demands its pound of flesh.

    1665
    Here you have in front of you this pale-faced student. The man does not look as if he ever spent a shilling on himself in his life. I have spent a very great deal of time with the man during the last week or two, and, admitting that it is not easy to talk business to a man who is an undoubted genius, this is put to the Minister: "Will you take the risk for £100,000, and a subsidy of £10,000 a year for three years, with the possibility of finding and providing a cure for tuberculosis?" What is he prepared to do? He says, "For the assistance given to me, I will give you 50 per cent. of my sera and my vaccine." What more can a man do? After the facts were placed in front of me, 10 or 12 days ago, I spent an enormous amount of time trying to bridge a way whereby some agreement could be entered into between Mr. Spahlinger and the Minister so that this cure should not pass out of the country's hands.
    I got an answer full of sympathy from the Minister, but I should like him to look at it through another pair of spectacles. He says, "I cannot advise the Ministry to liquidate this man's debts, nor can I advise or allow the Lancashire Insurance Committee, or any other insurance committee, to spend any of their money on the same thing." If hon. Members knew as much as I know about it—and I wish they did—nobody would ever accuse the Minister of Health, or any other Minister, of playing with this country's funds if, in an attempt of that sort, the whole £100,000 were wasted. Many more hundreds of thousands of pounds are wasted in mal-administration every day in this country. We ask the Minister, with all the earnestness we possess, on behalf of the people in this country who to-day are suffering—my hon. Friend gave the numbers—to do this. He says it is an object for charity. What does he mean I Does he mean that it is a sort of thing which does not bring immediate and financial results, and that therefore we may possibly lose the whole £100,000, and he may be attacked in the House and receive complaints? If that is all he means, then Ministers are dead souls altogether. If he means that he has not the courage to face what attacks may be launched against him if the; whole sum is lost, if that is what is left of Ministers
    1666
    of the Crown in this country, I am very sorry.
    I do not agree with the Minister that this is a case for charity. Where are we to begin? If I were a rich man—I am poor, as a matter of fact, very poor, and it is easy for a very poor man to say what a rich one would do—and able to give this man the money he requires, I would not stand up here for five minutes asking the House to do it. I would do it myself. I have thought of men I might ask, but I do not think it is fair to put Mr. Spahlinger in the position of having to ask for charity. I ask the Minister to reconsider this, and to send a man out to Geneva to get out all the facts and the truth as to the man's position and to make the best arrangement that can be arrived at, so that this country can get the benefit of this cure. If I have said one or two things that I ought not to have said, I am sorry, but I feel so earnest about this. I am not complaining against the Minister, he is in a very difficult position, but I ask him to adjust his views with another pair of spectacles, and to ask himself if he really cannot justify the risk. I am perfectly sure that every hon. Member in this House, to whatever party he belongs, will wish him well if he comes to the con elusion that he can make the advance Mr. Spahlinger requires.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Lord Eustace Percy): I rise to reply to the points that have been raised in the last three speeches, and I will do it as briefly as I possibly can. Although neither of the first two speakers are here, I am afraid I must deal with the points which they made. First of all, the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Daviee) spoke of the number of empty beds in the Poor Law infirmaries as being 30,000. That figure is quite incorrect. It represents the highest figure at the slackest season of the year.
    The figure covers a class of institutions which is a good deal broader than what are commonly called Poor Law infirmaries. As a matter of fact, on 1st January the number of empty beds in the Poor Law infirmaries of the country was just over 6,000, or about 18 per cent. Therefore, the extent of what the hon. Member regards as this evil is considerably less than the House might have

    1667
    understood from his remarks. It is perfectly true that this is a problem which has to be met. When the hon. Member says it is a scandal, he supplies an instance of what very commonly happens—when these speeches are made, it is very often at a time when the evil has already been recognised and when, all over the country, considerable steps are being taken for a better organisation and better utilisation of the space in our Poor Law infirmaries. I have not time to go into all the different ways in which our Poor Law infirmaries are doing an increasing work in supplementing the work of the general hospitals. Anyone acquainted with the problem knows that is the case, and I have every hope it will increasingly be the case in the future, and the Ministry will certainly do everything they can to encourage, by the various authorities throughout the country, the most economic and efficient use of the available space.
    The second point raised by the hon. Member for Westhoughton was with regard to the action of certain employers of labour in Gloucester. On that point, he will excuse me from entering into a discussion. I can only say this—and I am sure he will recognise what I mean—that if I were in Gloucester I should certainly claim the right to protect my household from what I should consider was a risk, by refusing to take into my private employment any person who was not vaccinated, and I should regard it as a rather gross form of tyranny if the State were to tell me I was not at liberty to do so. To what extent that principle is applicable to various forms of business or industry in this country I will not pause to discuss at this moment. I think the hon. Member for Westhoughton should remember when he puts his side of the question that the other principle is equally applicable and that the interference of the State with the freedom of the individual, in this instance, might be a very gross form of tyranny. Dealing with the point raised by the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. March) he did not give me notice that he was going to raise the maternity and child welfare question, and, as he is not now in the House, I may confine myself to this reply. He asks that the Ministry should take the question of the provision of milk and so on into earnest consideration. They
    1668
    are certainly prepared to do so, but this question was discussed at great length and was the subject of a good deal of debate and difference of opinion on the Estimates some time ago. Since that time, I do not know that the hon. Member has approached the Department with a view to clearing up those differences. I should be glad to see him at any time, but I am afraid that to raise the question without notice at this late hour is not the best way of clearing up any administrative differences that there may be between us. As regards the question of the lack of grant towards various forms of expenditure for the prevention and cure of tuberculosis, such, for instance, as extra nourishment and bedding, it is not quite true that no grant is given for extra nourishment. There is a grant, at any rate, in certain cases and in certain areas, for extra nourishment.
    It is quite true there is no grant given for bedding, but I must protest against the assumption that it is outside the power of local authorities to take on any new activities for the prevention or cure of disease unless they get a grant from the central Government. After all, the boot is rather on the other leg. This is the only infectious disease for which local authorities get any grant at all, and I think this assumption that the central Government are bound to give a grant to every form of useful and necessary local activity which local sanitary authorities may need to go in for is a very large assumption, which ought not to be made.
    Finally, I should like to come to the very important question raised by the hon. Member for Westhoughton and by the hon. and gallant Member for Preston (Lieut.-Colonel Hodge) in regard to Mr. Spahlinger. I do not think the House will require me to say that if the action of the Ministry in this matter has not fully met the views of the hon. and gallant Member for Preston—and I think he has expressed to-night greater disapproval of the attitude than I had understood him to entertain before from our previous com
    munications—it is not either because—
    Lieut.-Colonel HODGE:I agree, as I said, and I have agreed all along, that as a business proposition it will not hold water.
    Lord E. PERCY: I think I understand what the hon. and gallant Member had in mind, but if we have not met him as he would have wished us to meet him, it is not because we are ignorant of the intense interest throughout the country and the intense and distressing need which there is throughout the country for an adequate and efficient cure for tuberculosis. Neither, let me tell the hon. Member for Westhoughton, is it because we fear to spend the money, that we are frightened of the expense; it is not that, and I think I can explain very easily and quickly what our real attitude is. I think it is a matter which should be made clear. I think I can claim, and I think Mr. Spahlinger himself would admit, that he has received every consideration at the hands of the Ministry, and not only at the hands of my right hon. Friend but at the hands of the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) before him.
    Last year, in 1922, the Ministry took the initiative of sending out a specially qualified officer to Switzerland to acquaint himself with Mr. Spahlinger's method, and on receipt of this officer's report, the Ministry, in August last year, made a proposal to Mr. Spahlinger which Mr. Spahlinger was unable to accept, though he stated that under normal conditions he would have been glad to do so. Arrangements made between Mr. Spahlinger and the Red Cross Society also fell through. This year there has been a renewal of these discussions. As the House knows, my right hon. Friend has recently seen Mr. Spahlinger, and—
    Lieut.-Colonel HODGE: We are all
    desirous to arrive at the truth, but I think it is only fair to say that the moment you made your offer a year ago, which was in fact a very good offer indeed, Mr. Spahlinger himself was unable, owing to an agreement which was then in existence between him and someone else, to accept the offer.
    Lord E. PERCY: I never expressed any opinion as to why he refused. I am merely stating the fact that he said he was unable to accept the proposal, though under normal conditions he would have been glad to do so. My right hon. Friend has recently seen Mr. Spahlinger, and has also consulted with certain hon. Members for Lancashire in regard to the assistance
    1670
    which Mr. Spahlinger now requires. So far as the Government are concerned, the position is now quite simple. We are interested in what is commonly known as the Spahlinger treatment. We are satisfied that there is a prima facie case for such further scientific inquiry as will enable medical authorities and the world in general to form a definite and final opinion as to its efficacy.
    But if there is to be any question of the expenditure of public funds, Parliamentary sanction for such expenditure will be necessary, and the Government would obviously not be justified in coming to Parliament to ask for such sanction, except on the basis of adequate information and reasonable security. In the opinion of my right hon. Friend these conditions can best be satisfied by asking Mr. Spahlinger to take an early opportunity of making a full statement of his process and results to a body competent to pass expert opinion upon them. My right hon. Friend understands that such an opportunity is being afforded in this country, and when Mr. Spahlinger has taken advantage of it, it should be possible to arrive at a decision as to what action, if any, can appropriately be taken by the Government. Meanwhile, my right hon. Friend hopes that the appeal which, he understands, is now being made for funds from private sources may be successful in meeting the immediate difficulties of Mr. Spahlinger's position. That is the actual position. I think the House will recognise that it is a reasonable one, that it gives Mr. Spahlinger every opportunity of assistance, on the sole condition laid down in the statement I have just made, and I think that the country may feel assured that we are watching this question with very great interest, and, so far as it lies with us, we shall do everything in our power to give such assistance as trustees for public funds can give in such a case.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I am rather sorry the Noble Lord replied before we had an opportunity of passing some comment on the announcement of the Minister of Health with regard to relief in necessitous areas. Although the right hon. Gentleman truly said it had been referred to by several speakers, we had not the benefit of his actual announcement in detail as to what the Government propose to do, and therefore had no

    1671
    opportunity of commenting upon it. I am bound to say that, as the representative of a necessitous area, I am—as, I believe, other hon. Members who sit for necessitous areas are—profoundly disappointed with the announcement the right hon. Gentleman has made as the considered policy and view of the Government on this matter. It is all the more to be regretted that such a decision should be arrived at after the very long period which has been given to the discussion of this matter, both by the present Government and by the Government immediately preceding it, and I do think we ought to have this opportunity of saying one or two things about the reasons advanced by the Minister for turning down the revised formula, which he said he had considered, and was unable to advise the Cabinet or the Government or the House to accept. I gather that the Minister's principal objection—because he placed emphasis upon this—was that a grant or any financial aid from the Government to necessitous areas on the lines of the formula would be likely to encourage expenditure of an extravagant, or even of an unwise, nature by some local authorities, at any rate, which would have to deal with special unemployment.
    I should like to point out to the Minister that there was a very good safeguard against that revised formula that was submitted. That formula laid it down—
    "To end Poor Law Authorities relieving an average number of persons throughout the year in excess of the number appropriate thereto (subject to the limitations provided) there shall be paid a grant as follows:
    In respect of every such excess case relieved 75 per cent. of either of the following amounts, whichever is the less:

    (1) The average expenditure per person relieved in the Union area; or

    (2) The average expenditure per person relieved throughout England and Wales."

    Therefore, if the formula provided for relief to be given on the average expenditure per person relieved in England and Wales, the local authority which did happen to be extravagant would not be able to get relief at all commensurate with their extravagance based on a formula of that character. The right hon. Gentleman laid emphasis upon this point: he rightly said that the cost of relief of the unprecedented unemployment in in-
    1672
    dustrial areas was placing a burden on industries which it was impossible for them to go on bearing if they were to get back to anything like normal conditions. That is perfectly true, but it is not the whole question. I myself am most anxious that in the case, of Sheffield and other necessitous areas that there should be relief from the present overwhelming burden of the poor-rate. The right hon. Gentleman did not remember the fact that in places like Sheffield it is not only the immediate burden upon industry, it is the fact that every service for which either the board of guardians or the town council is responsible is starved because of the general pressure of the rates caused by the very high poor-rate owing to the relief for unemployment. For example, a certain number of houses have been erected in Sheffield, and in the present state of unemployment it is exceedingly hard for the Ministry to interfere with the rent. The effect of raising the rents to the tenants, who are heavily burdened at the present time, when nothing can be contributed out of the local rates over and above the ordinary penny, is obvious; because of the present charge on the rates for relief, they cannot face the increase of rates.
    We have the question of education in Sheffield—one of pressing necessity, which cannot be faced by the town council or the education authority, which has done its level best to keep the expenditure within a reasonable figure. Yet the offer of the right hon. Gentleman is a loan with postponed interest! Whilst that might be relief to the rates during the period sufficient to relieve industry, it will not enable them in the future to tackle the services that are being starved at the present time because of the high rates. Is it giving any encouragement to places like Sheffield, Middlesbrough, and other towns I have mentioned to be told that the only relief that the Government can offer is by way of loan with postponed interest, which is no real loan in regard to the awful accummulation of debt that, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is there. Boards of guardians have had to borrow money for current expenditure in the last year or two, and not only has the debt of these boards accumulated to an enormous extent, but side by side with that the Corporation of Sheffield and similar cities here had to borrow in regard to relief

    1673
    works upon which so much value has been placed in a pervious discussion. I am bound to say that from that point of view the suggestion made by the Minister is most unsatisfactory. Of course those who are beggars cannot always be choosers, and it would be unwise for the representative of a city like Sheffield to say to the Minister if we cannot have all we want we will not have anything at all, but we do say that the offer which he has announced to-night is very inadequate to meet the situation so far as Sheffield is concerned. I still hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the matter with a view to granting, at any rate, in such cases as Sheffield, some more permanent assistance than has been suggested by him with regard to the relief of the debt which every patriotic city has had to incur where there has been abnormal relief.
    There is another point which calls for some comment from the representative for Sheffield, and it is the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, in regard to local authorities whose policy he regards as extravagant, to the effect that this House must not relieve them from having to learn the lesson of their own experience, and if they make mistakes they must suffer the consequences. I would like to point out that Sheffield, Middlesbrough, Barrow and similar towns are in their present plight because they happen to be areas to which there was a large influx of population to produce munitions of war. They did their best to help the country in times of difficulty, and if I put another construction on the words of the right hon. Gentleman, that they should not make the mistake of having such a great influx of population in time of national stress and should not make again the endeavours they made before to help the Government, because they will have learned by their experience that they would have to pay the piper themselves when faced with the Poor Law relief and unemployment relief necessary after the War is over, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not wish that construction to be placed upon his words. Areas like Sheffield, Middlesbrough, Barrow and West Ham, which have done such enormous war services and have done their best to cater for such a great influx of population they ought to receive very much more recognition and sympathy from the Government than has
    1674
    been expressed by the right hon. Gentleman to-night.
    Mr. BROAD: I cannot compliment the Minister of Health upon his speech, because I feel very disappointed with it. In the early part of his speech the right hon. Gentleman referred to the necessitous Poor Law areas appeal for assistance. May I point out that they are now bearing a very unfair proportion of what is a national responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman referred to some figures relating to the rating system, but if that system produces such results as he has stated, and he has any real desire and intention to relieve these districts, surely he could have found some formula. I think it would have been far more honest on his part if he had told us plainly that the Government had no intention of dealing with the situation. That is what I feel about that matter. He spoke again, as far as other assistance is concerned, of giving facilities to these extremely hard hit Poor Law authorities in a way which would add to their responsibilities in the shape of further loans. That is a prospect not good enough to meet the situation. Although the right hon. Gentleman complained of a later formula which dealt with other considerations than that of exceptional unemployment; yet, after all, these considerations have been accentuated by the existence of severe unemployment which has enabled the employers to reduce wages to such an extent that even people in work have been compelled to seek assistance from the Poor Law. We have been getting back to the conditions of 1834, and wages are so low that a workman, should his family life meet with the slightest disturbance, say, in the form of sickness, must have recourse to the Poor Law. It is not good enough to say that these considerations are quite local. When the Poor Law was instituted in the early part of the last century, each local district was to some extent a self-contained economic unit. We cannot say that to-day because the poor in one district very often consist of the working people whom the big employers in another district have thrown out of employment Therefore this must be treated as a national consideration. Beyond these things the Minister of Health seemed to have very little to say. His speech has been a repetition of what has been done on previous occasions, and then

    1675
    declaring that the whole position is a local responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman told us that one Minister after another had greatly concerned himself about these things and had been unable to find a solution. If Ministers cannot find a solution, then I say they are absolutely bankrupt of ideas to face the situation. Yet it is a situation which in the main is a creation of the present Government and of people connected with them. We have heard this afternoon from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) something about Germany and her development and how she has brought her economic processes up-to-date. That shows what we have to face there. It is the same with France and other countries, but I noticed very little mention of America in this connection. When we are considering this question of unemployment we must remember it is not the normal swing of boom and slump that we have had to face in the past. We have to sell in the world markets, and while during this period we have had from one and a half to two million of our people unemployed we have seen France fully employed and able to find work for some of our own mechanics; we have seen the Germans fully employed and we have seen America at the top of the boom while we have been down in the slump. But we have indications that America is getting towards the end of the boom, and we have seen already that in the last month they have overtaken their orders for pig-iron and steel—to the extent of something like 600,000 tons and that they have now disposed of their arrears of orders. They are blowing out already some of their furnaces. What is going to be the position within two or three months, when America, having passed the zenith of her boom, comes down into the slump? Is there then any hope of our recovery? Anyone who follows the economic position knows that when, at the time of a boom in world trade, a country like ours, dependent on world markets, is at the bottom of the slump, there is no hope of its recovery when the world market is falling to pieces. That is very different from what we have had to face in other winters. It is not the ordinary play of economic forces that is responsible for the accentuated unem-
    1676
    ployment in this country. We have the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir A. Smith) presenting a manifesto to the Government and weeping tears because of the break-up of a union; but who is more responsible for that, especially as regards the Engineering Union, than the hon. Member himself?
    We have seen that because of the War we are faced with an enormous Debt, which results in a heavy Income Tax, prevents the Government from taking the taxes off food, and is handicapping us in our recovery in the world market. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead asked, "Is England to be the only country to pay an indemnity "? But to whom are we paying an indemnity? It is to those who held the country to ransom during war-time, and who are represented on those benches. Seven-eighths of that Debt is represented in this country, and we know, when they talk about the depletion of our capital during war-time, that they added to their capital during war-time. When they talk about the destruction of capital during war-time, one can go through the West End and the City and see that they have lost their old offices and built big marble palaces instead, while in the country big mansions have been built where there were only humble lodges before—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]—and, instead of destruction having taken place, as they say, in industrial areas, we find, in place of their old workshops, huge capital developments and the last word in modern machinery. This great Debt is a mortgage on the life and labour of the people, held in bondage to the capitalist classes who profiteered out of them during the War. This War Debt, which is such a handicap to your industry, is almost to a penny the measure of the profiteering that went on during the War. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"] I think I can prove it. Does that money represent anything that existed previous to the War? Every pair of boots the men wore, every rag of their clothing, every strap of their equipment, the rifles and side-arms they carried, were all made during war-time. Every mortar, cannon, machine gun, shot and shell was made during war-time, and aeroplanes, tanks and submarines were made during war-time. They were made by our labour-power, with half our manhood away, either fighting or in training.

    1677
    The other half did all the ordinary work of the nation, and, in addition, made all this exceptional war equipment; and you all lived better than you ever did before, and had a fine old time. It was a glorious War, and you made some fine profits.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Would the hon. Member mind addressing me?
    Mr. BROAD: The whole of these things were during the War. Profiteering broke out the day the War began. Organised labour went to the Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith), protesting against profiteering, asking him to control it, and undertook not to take advantage of the points to demand better wages and conditions, but the right hon. Gentleman said, "Business as usual," and he could not interfere.
    Mr. SPEAKER: On the Appropriation Bill, we must deal with the expenditure of the current year.
    Mr. BROAD: I am trying to get to that. I am dealing with what was allowed this afternoon, with the way in which the War Debt is being handled, and that what is handicapping us in our recovery is the fact of the huge War Debt being over us. If Germany is in such a favourable position owing to the fact that she has eliminated her War Debt by a certain process which you may call confiscation if you like—the inflation of currency—and France has reduced her War Debt and as a consequence has brought about a much more favourable economic position, it is about time we handled that position as well from our point of view. The Government in its Budget should have made provision for dealing with that great War Debt. I believe this is fundamental, and, whether you like it or not, before you can put this country on a basis to regain its position in the world market, either you yourselves or some other Government will have to deal with this huge War Debt in that way.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Do you mean by cancellation?
    Mr. BROAD: I mean by the process of a capital levy.
    Mr. SPEAKER: On this occasion that matter is quite out of order.
    Mr. BROAD: The interrupter was out of order, I take it, as well as myself. The Government has a special responsibility for making provision for meeting unemployment, and is to be found fault with in not having during the past Session made adequate provision for dealing with unemployment, because on the admission of the late Prime Minister himself the Government of the day, of which he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, was largely responsible for the policy which produced the unemployment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law) said:
    "I think there is very little doubt that if we had effected our deflation at a slower rate, we should not have had this unemployment."
    Is there not responsibility on the Government Benches for it then? If the policy of deflation by the Government, in conjunction with the great financial interests, produced the unemployment, for financial reasons and Government reasons, they must accept the responsibility. Even the present Prime Minister, when President of the Board of Trade, in November, 1921, addressing the friends of commerce at Liverpool said:
    "Wages concessions are, generally speaking, being made very satisfactorily. It has been a difficult thing, but the fall of wages has come along very well."
    That was speaking as President of the Board of Trade. We know full well that there was a concerted effort by the Government of that day to stop every piece of work they possibly could in conjunction with the bankers. They gave notice to withdraw their overdrafts on purpose to produce that situation of unemployment so that they could bring the status of the workers down. That has been the cause, to a great extent—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is again going outside the discussion allowable here. We cannot go back so far as that.
    Mr. BROAD: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but in discussing the causes which bring about this result to deal with it adequate, we must go back to some extent, and other hon. Members have referred to it—to the War period. In conclusion, I am going to say—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I do not know that the conclusion of my speech

    1679
    may not take so long as that of some other Members when they are interrupted. I have often felt very cross at the difficulties of Members getting a decent hearing after the dinner hour. [Interruption.] I mean what I say. There are, after the dinner hour, a great many interjections, and very often a chorus of derision—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am sorry to say they do not come from one side of the House only.
    Mr. BROAD: I wish to insist on the fact that it is the Government's responsibility to make proper provision for the unemployed, and that they have failed to do so. They have failed to realise their responsibility in this matter, and we want to drive it home to them. Apart from their particular actions, to which I have referred, and which in my contention are largely responsible for the exceptional amount of unemployment in this country as compared with our competitors in other countries, there is this higher and moral responsibility as well. It is the right of every individual to have the opportunity to earn a living. The natural way for him to do that is to apply his labour to the soil, and if the State has taken away that share of his of the common inheritance, and has deprived him of his livelihood, it is for the State to provide him with an opportunity to earn a living. That is the high moral claim we make. The State has not made that provision. In my own neighbourhood we see hundreds of young men who fought in the War, who, prior to the War, were fine physically, and now, though perhaps without any loss of limb, they have been brought down to a very low stage of vitality, and are no economic proposition to any employer. They are getting no pension, nothing from insurance, and because they are single men the Poor Law are refusing them anything at all. There are others who only get a pension of half-a-crown and five shillings a week as representing their disability walking about the streets.
    You talk about the King's Roll of Honour! Where is the Roll of Honour that the Government ought to sign? Why do they not take their responsibility? Where is the honour that the men who offered their lives and fought for the
    1680
    country to which they thought they belonged should come back and find there is not a bit of the country that belongs to them? We do not look across the seas for payment of the indemnity. It is paid by the people who live here. The remedy is in our own hands. If the Government has not the will, circumstances will place someone else in the position before long, because in the near future we are going to have a very critical situation in this country, much worse than ever before, much worse than any hon. Members, perhaps, have contemplated. You have failed to realise your responsibilities. You have been throwing out money with both hands to the agriculturists. For what? So that they may be enabled to pay the enhanced rents forced on them during war time, so that they may be able to pay—those who were compelled to buy—the mortgages and the interest on the mortgages which they have incurred in order to take over the land at enhanced prices. You can do that with both hands, but when there is anything to be done for the relief of the people who have borne the burden and heat of the day and have suffered for you you cannot afford money for education, or for milk for nursing mothers, or for anything else. Every item of expenditure in this House which affects the health and social service of the people is reduced to a minimum, but if someone wants to get married there is £15,000 added to his salary to enable him to keep up a decent establishment. You spend a certain amount on education to make efficient wage-slaves. The rudiments of education they have received have given them an opportunity of reading and understanding, and they want to know-how it is that in this country, which is the common heritage of all, some are condemned to a sordid struggle for the necessaries of life, from the cradle to the grave, and that their children will be thrown in the gutters like themselves. That sort of life is not good enough. There is no necessity for it. We proved during the War what was the full productive power of our labour. We know that is has increased enormously. What is lacking is not new markets abroad but the development of our home markets. Give us the benefit of our productive power, and the masses of the people will be only too willing to consume the things they produce.

    1681
    That will relieve the position. You fail to realise that our productive power has increased at an enormous rate, and that the standard of living of the people has not been correspondingly improved. You are all the time talking of the need for the extension of foreign markets. You know full well that this game has to come to an end. If industrialism in the various competing nations depends upon the further extending of foreign markets it means another war. We have passed through one war which was caused through commercial expansion. We are on the eve of another war. We are having difficulties with France.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is quite irrelevant. This is the third time, and I must now ask him to resume his seat.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN Mr. CHAMBERLAIN rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
    Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put accordingly, and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Coalville, Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Ashby Woulds, and Sheepshed, the parishes of Bardon, Blackfordby, Coleorton Heather, Measham, Normanton-le-Heath, Oakthorpe and Donisthorpe, Packington, Ravenstone-with-Snibston, Swannington, Thringstone, and Willesley, in the rural district of Market Bosworth, all in the County of Leicester, which was presented on the 23rd day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919,
  1682
  in respect of the urban district of Budleigh Salterton, in the County of Devon, which was presented on the 26th day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Matlock, Matlock Bath, and Scarthin Nick, North Darley, and Wirksworth, the parish of Middleton by Wirksworth, in the rural district of Ashbourne, the parishes of Cromford and Tansley, in the rural district of Bakewell, and the parishes of Alderwasley, Crick, Dethick, Lea and Holloway, Pentrich, and South Wingfield, in the rural district of Belper, all in the County of Derby, which was presented on the 26th day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, for the amendment of the Banstead, Walton-on-the-Hill, and Kingswood Electric Lighting Order, 1914, and the Chip-stead and District Electric Lighting Order. 1915, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parishes of Wooburn, Little Marlow, and Hedsor, in the rural district of Wycombe, and the urban district of Marlow, all in the County of Buckingham, and parts of the parishes of Cookham and Bisham, in the rural district of Cookham, in the County of Berks, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Formby, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Order made by the Electricity Commissioners and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under Section 7 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, constituting the North Wales and South Cheshire Electricity

  1683
  District and establishing the North Wales and South Cheshire Joint Electricity Authority, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved."—[Colonel Ashley.]

  MARRIAGE (PROHIBITED DEGREES OF RELATIONSHIP) BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at One Minute after Twelve o'Clock.

ROYAL NAVY.
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "BENBOW."
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "BENBOW."
  FAIR WAGES RESOLUTION.
  FAIR WAGES RESOLUTION.
  STOREHOUSEMEN.
  STOREHOUSEMEN.
  COOKERY BRANCH (PROMOTION).
  COOKERY BRANCH (PROMOTION).
  SUPPLY BRANCH.
  SUPPLY BRANCH.
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (ESTABLISHED WORKMEN).
  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (ESTABLISHED WORKMEN).
BRITISH ARMY.
  SOUTH IRISH HORSE (CAPTAIN CHILCOTT).
  SOUTH IRISH HORSE (CAPTAIN CHILCOTT).
  ORDNANCE CORPS (TEMPORARY OFFICERS).
  ORDNANCE CORPS (TEMPORARY OFFICERS).
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  EXPENDITURE.
  EXPENDITURE.
  UNIT MESSES.
  UNIT MESSES.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  LONG SERVICE PENSIONS (NAVY).
  LONG SERVICE PENSIONS (NAVY).
  CHELSEA PENSIONERS (MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS).
  CHELSEA PENSIONERS (MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (G. A. MOORE).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (G. A. MOORE).
  APPEAL TRIBUNALS, SHEFFIELD.
  APPEAL TRIBUNALS, SHEFFIELD.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  GERMAN MANUFACTURED STOCKINGS.
  GERMAN MANUFACTURED STOCKINGS.
  SULPHATE OF AMMONIA (EXPORT REGULATIONS),
  SULPHATE OF AMMONIA (EXPORT REGULATIONS),
  MOTOR-TYRE INDUSTRY.
  MOTOR-TYRE INDUSTRY.
  IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
  IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
  RUSSIA AND AMERICAN SYNDICATE (AGREEMENT)
  RUSSIA AND AMERICAN SYNDICATE (AGREEMENT)
  GERMANY AND FRANCE (BRITISH EXPORTS).
  GERMANY AND FRANCE (BRITISH EXPORTS).
  IRISH FREE STATE (FOREIGN TRADE).
  IRISH FREE STATE (FOREIGN TRADE).
  TEXTILE TRADE.
  TEXTILE TRADE.
  NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN IRELAND (TRADE RETURNS).
  NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN IRELAND (TRADE RETURNS).
  TRADE FACILITIES ACT.
  TRADE FACILITIES ACT.
  WAR CHARGES VALIDITY BILL.
  WAR CHARGES VALIDITY BILL.
  MERCHANT SHIPS (DISCIPLINE).
  MERCHANT SHIPS (DISCIPLINE).
  BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION (AMUSEMENT SECTION).
  BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION (AMUSEMENT SECTION).
  MAINTENANCE ORDERS ACT.
  MAINTENANCE ORDERS ACT.
  IRAQ (BRITISH FORCES).
  IRAQ (BRITISH FORCES).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (GIBRALTAR).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (GIBRALTAR).
  MEXICAN GOVERNMENT (RECOGNITION).
  MEXICAN GOVERNMENT (RECOGNITION).
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  TANGIER.
  TANGIER.
  CONTINENTAL SERVICE (SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION).
  CONTINENTAL SERVICE (SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION).
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (WOMEN, OXFORD UNIVERSITY).
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (WOMEN, OXFORD UNIVERSITY).
  POLICE SERVICE.
  POLICE SERVICE.
  DOCKERS' DEMONSTRATIONS (POLICE ACTION).
  DOCKERS' DEMONSTRATIONS (POLICE ACTION).
  PUBLIC MEETINGS (FREEDOM OF SPEECH).
  PUBLIC MEETINGS (FREEDOM OF SPEECH).
  INVERNESS LODGE, ROEHAMPTON.
  INVERNESS LODGE, ROEHAMPTON.
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL.
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL.
  PARLIAMENTARY RECESS.
  PARLIAMENTARY RECESS.
  MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC UNDERTAKINGS, TURKEY (COST).
  MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC UNDERTAKINGS, TURKEY (COST).
TRANSPORT.
  MOTOR DRIVERS (REGULATION OF HOURS).
  MOTOR DRIVERS (REGULATION OF HOURS).
  ROAD VEHICLES BILL.
  ROAD VEHICLES BILL.
  PURFLEET AND TILBURY ROAD (SMALL HOLDING, NUTBERRY).
  PURFLEET AND TILBURY ROAD (SMALL HOLDING, NUTBERRY).
  MECHANICALLY-PROPELLED VEHICLES (REGULATIONS).
  MECHANICALLY-PROPELLED VEHICLES (REGULATIONS).
  MOTOR OMNIBUSES (COLLAPSIBLE HOODS).
  MOTOR OMNIBUSES (COLLAPSIBLE HOODS).
  MOTOR PASSENGER VEHICLES (FINES ON DRIVERS).
  MOTOR PASSENGER VEHICLES (FINES ON DRIVERS).
  SANITARY INSPECTORS (SALARIES).
  SANITARY INSPECTORS (SALARIES).
  LUNACY ACT.
  LUNACY ACT.
  SMALL-POX AND VACCINATION.
  SMALL-POX AND VACCINATION.
  MEDICAL CERTIFICATES (ADVERTISEMENTS).
  MEDICAL CERTIFICATES (ADVERTISEMENTS).
  REGISTRARS (REMUNERATION).
  REGISTRARS (REMUNERATION).
  PRESTWICH MENTAL HOSPITAL (SUPERINTENDENT).
  PRESTWICH MENTAL HOSPITAL (SUPERINTENDENT).
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE.
  POOR LAW INSTITUTIONS.
  POOR LAW INSTITUTIONS.
HOUSING.
  APPROVED SCHEMES.
  APPROVED SCHEMES.
  CONSTRUCTION (COST).
  CONSTRUCTION (COST).
  EJECTMENT ORDERS.
  EJECTMENT ORDERS.
  RECOVERY OF POSSESSION (ORDERS).
  RECOVERY OF POSSESSION (ORDERS).
AGRICULTURE.
  LAND CULTIVATION.
  LAND CULTIVATION.
  CO-OPERATIVE ENTERPRISES (LOANS).
  CO-OPERATIVE ENTERPRISES (LOANS).
  AGRICULTURAL COMMITTEES (TRAVELLING EXPENSES).
  AGRICULTURAL COMMITTEES (TRAVELLING EXPENSES).
  ALLOTMENTS.
  ALLOTMENTS.
  DOMINIONS (CO-OPERATIVE ASSOCIATIONS).
  DOMINIONS (CO-OPERATIVE ASSOCIATIONS).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (REGIONAL APPOINTMENTS).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (REGIONAL APPOINTMENTS).
  AIR MINISTRY.
  AIR MINISTRY.
  BOARD OF TRADE (CAPTAIN PINDER).
  BOARD OF TRADE (CAPTAIN PINDER).
  WOMEN.
  WOMEN.
  WRITING ASSISTANTS.
  WRITING ASSISTANTS.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE SOCIETIES (DEPOSIT).
  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE SOCIETIES (DEPOSIT).
  S.S. "LAURENTIC" (SALVAGE OPERATIONS).
  S.S. "LAURENTIC" (SALVAGE OPERATIONS).
  TAXATION (GREAT BRITAIN AND DOMINIONS)
  TAXATION (GREAT BRITAIN AND DOMINIONS)
POST OFFICE.
  TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT, MANCHESTER (PROMOTION).
  TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT, MANCHESTER (PROMOTION).
  INSURED PARCELS.
  INSURED PARCELS.
  ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
  ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
SCOTLAND.
  MARRIAGES (SPIRITUALIST BODY).
  MARRIAGES (SPIRITUALIST BODY).
  HISTORICAL DEPARTMENT, REGISTER HOUSE, EDINBURGH (CURATOR).
  HISTORICAL DEPARTMENT, REGISTER HOUSE, EDINBURGH (CURATOR).
  SMALL HOLDINGS.
  SMALL HOLDINGS.
  BUILDING MATERIALS (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
  BUILDING MATERIALS (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
  BRADFORD AND HUDDERSFIELD (WOMEN).
  BRADFORD AND HUDDERSFIELD (WOMEN).
  CHICKEN-POX, GLASGOW.
  CHICKEN-POX, GLASGOW.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  BATLEY, DEWSBURY, MORLEY, AND OSSETT.
  BATLEY, DEWSBURY, MORLEY, AND OSSETT.
  SKILLED WORKMEN.
  SKILLED WORKMEN.
  INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES.
  INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES.
  TRADE BOARDS ACTS (ARREARS OF WAGES).
  TRADE BOARDS ACTS (ARREARS OF WAGES).
  EMPLOYMENT AND WAGES.
  EMPLOYMENT AND WAGES.
  COAL INDUSTRY (SILICOSIS).
  COAL INDUSTRY (SILICOSIS).
PEACE TREATIES.
  BRITISH CLAIMS.
  BRITISH CLAIMS.
  ARMY OF OCCUPATION (REPARATION).
  ARMY OF OCCUPATION (REPARATION).
  "COLOGNE POST" (MR. NICHOLSON).
  "COLOGNE POST" (MR. NICHOLSON).
  DEMOCRATIC PARTY, COLOGNE (REPORTED RAID).
  DEMOCRATIC PARTY, COLOGNE (REPORTED RAID).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.

SMOKE ABATEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce the Smoke Abatement (Scotland) Bill, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Novar.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

TOWN COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

POWERS OF SCOTTISH EDUCATION AUTHORITIES.
LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON had given Notice to ask the Secretary for Scotland what powers the education authorities have to authorise expenditure for other purposes than the direct advancement of education; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, my Question involves a much larger principle than the actual fact on which it is founded. Some time ago there was a proposal in Lanarkshire to set up a small water area for a district called Hazlebank—a very small area indeed. The cost would be rather considerable, and many ratepayers in the county were opposed to the scheme. I think the total cost was estimated at £3,000. About the same time, the education authority of Lanarkshire proposed to build a new school in that area, and, to assist in the furtherance of the water scheme, they proposed to make a grant of £100 or £150 towards the cost. The actual amount is really nothing; it is the principle involved that has caused me to bring this matter to your Lordships' attention.
In Scotland our educational system is somewhat different from that in England. There are three taxing authorities in Scotland, the Imperial authorities, the local rating authorities, and the education authorities. In this case it means that all the ratepayers in the county of Lanark will be contributing, though it may be a very small amount, to the cost of the water scheme for this small district. The school must, of course, have a supply of water, but I maintain that the people who are going to benefit from the construction of a new water supply should bear the cost, irrespective of the fact that the children are in their own homes or in a school of the education authority. That is the point of my Question. The ratepayers of the whole county are being asked to contribute to the benefit of a small area which wishes to have an improved water supply.
It seems to me the custom, nowadays, to make those who are not going to benefit by new schemes pay for them. I do not know who is able to make a protest against this proposal. The parish council took the matter up and were at once ruled out on the ground that they had no locus standi in the matter. Although they were going to contribute to the scheme they had no power of objecting to it. I hope my noble friend will be able to say something on this point. It seems to me a distinct breach of the principle that those who are going to benefit by a scheme should pay for it.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My noble friend will agree with me that the "direct advancement of education" is a phrase capable of liberal interpretation. In a certain sense it may be said that education authorities have no power of expending money except in the advancement of education, but the Legislature has from time to time added other various services to the primary function of education authorities. From a previous communication with my noble friend, I am aware that his Question had its origin in a proposal of the Lanarkshire Education Authority to contribute towards the cost of the water supply in one of the districts of the county. In reply to the last part of his Question, I have to say that the matter

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has not come officially before the Scottish Education Department. The Department, however, understand that the education authority have agreed to a contribution of £150 towards the capital cost of the water supply for the district in which one of their schools is situate. There can be no question as to the power of the local authority to provide water for the school; indeed, it is its duty to do so. While the method they have adopted might in an ordinary case be doubtful, the Department have no reason to think that the Lanarkshire Education Authority have acted without proper legal advice or that their action is not justified by the special circumstances of this particular school. I may remind my noble friend that the scheme was passed in the time of the late Sir Thomas Munro.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for his answer, but I confess I am not much nearer to understanding the exact position. He does not seem to have met my criticism, and he really founded his reply on the fact that the proposal was passed during the time of Sir Thomas Munro. Previous to his death Sir Thomas Munro was a very ill man and, possibly, did not pay the same attention to the case as he would otherwise have done. Neither does my noble friend contest the principle I have laid down that by a side wind they should not get support from the whole of the county towards an improved water supply for a very limited area. That is an absolute breach of a large principle and one which may be carried to great lengths. I know that various other charges have been added indirectly to local education authorities, but I do not think they should be allowed to place a charge on the whole ratepayers of a county for the benefit of a small area. I do not, however, move for Papers.

IMPERIAL RELATIONS.
LORD STRATHSPEY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in response to the continued demands of the Dominions for a share in shaping the destinies of the Empire, any definite offer, which might be considered at the Colonial Conference, has been made to them of seats in Parliament.
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The matter to which this Question refers is one of great importance to the whole of the Empire. It would be very interesting to know what offers have been made to the Dominions in this respect and also whether this matter is likely to be brought up and properly thrashed out at the coming Imperial Conference. Possibly, it is a matter which concerns the Dominions more intimately than this country, but in my opinion it is a matter of real moment to the whole of the Empire. In order to secure proper unity, solidarity, and perfect trust in the Empire, in my opinion we must have an Imperial Conference, or rather an Imperial Parliament, properly so described, in London. Germany attained her rank as a great Power in spite of the fact that she had only second-rate and third-rate Colonies and none that could compare with those of the British Empire.
This is not a new question. It is already a very ancient one, and I think I am right in saying that in the reign of Henry VIII the City of Calais was allotted a Parliamentary seat by that monarch. In the past many of our great men have championed this cause, but none of them was lucky enough to succeed, possibly because it was too early in the day to solve the problem. After all, no part of the Empire can get on without the other parts. I venture to say that England could not exist for more than a few weeks unless the Colonies supplied her with food and wool. At the same time the Dominions themselves could not exist without England because we know only too well that they are weak in themselves and some Power might come along and capture thorn. We all need one another's support, and any link in the chain is liable to become a weak one if this fact is ignored.
We have a wonderful Empire which contains almost every imaginable commodity, and those commodities which we do not produce could be produced in a great many cases if the effort were made. There is no reason whatever why Australia should not supply the whole of the Lancashire mills with raw cotton, and I am given to understand that Australian cotton, grown to a large extent in Queensland, is superior to foreign cotton. Australia has to work up her trade and to help and support it in many ways, but all this could be done if the matter were inquired into and

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thrashed out at the coming Conference, which it is hoped that statesmen from all parts of the Empire will attend. Again, there is no reason at all why New Zealand, Australia and, possibly, other Dominions as well should not grow tobacco and so oust the foreign trade Both Africa and Canada are as greatly in need of development as New Zealand and Australia. All these Dominions are capable of development. They all want settlers, but before they can attract settlers in any great number they must be properly developed. After all, the stronger the Dominions become the stronger will the Empire be. I am putting my general ideas on this subject in book form, with the title: "The Case for Colonial Representation in Parliament." I hope that all these matters will be put before the Imperial Conference and fully thrashed out there.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: My Lords, before my noble friend below me replies to this Question I would ask leave to say a word or two. Unfortunately, the accounts of our debates in both Houses of Parliament, and outside Parliament as well, on these great Imperial questions sometimes undergo a good deal of alteration and reduction before they reach the further parts of the Empire. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Strathspey, who has just spoken, will forgive me if I say that I should profoundly regret it if I thought that it was to go forth to the Dominions that the suggestion contained in his Question, that an offer should be made by England (using the word in the broader sense) of seats in Parliament as a means towards consolidating the Empire, represented the opinion of any considerable body of people in this country. The noble Lord said, with perfect truth, that it is desirable to find some means by which the Empire should be consolidated. With a great many of his views I find myself in entire agreement, and with his remark regarding the power of the Empire to provide for all our needs I entirely concur.
On the other hand, I cannot agree with his suggestion that an offer should be made by this country to the Dominions regarding the form which future consolidation of the Empire from a Parliamentary point of view should take. So far as seats in Parliament are concerned, the noble Lord does not state whether
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he means that such seats should be in your Lordships' House or in the Lower House. I may remind him and your Lordships that we already have the good fortune to have in this House as our colleagues most distinguished representatives of different parts of the British Empire. We have in the noble Lord himself one who speaks with knowledge and experience on behalf of the further parts of the Empire.
The problem, as he truly said, is no new one, and it is one of the most complicated of the many problems to which we have to address ourselves in these days. Whether the noble Duke who is at the head of the Colonial Office, and the Government of which he is a distinguished member, consider that this great constitutional question ought to be discussed at the coming Conference I cannot say, but I do know that there is abundant work for that Conference to do in the limited time at their disposal without embarking upon this most complicated question, and I desire to suggest to the Government that proposals of the character adumbrated in the noble Lord's Question would much better come from the Dominions themselves. If they think that the best way to govern the Empire is through a Parliament which contains representatives of the Dominions, let them say so. They have never said so yet.
Not only have we in this House Peers who belong to the Dominions, but in the other House there are at any rate several Members of Parliament who have spent the greater part of their lives in one or other of the more distant parts of the Empire. Merely to offer half a dozen seats in either House to the Dominions would, I venture most respectfully to say, be purely farcical, and as regards the House of Commons may I point out that there is no such thing known to our system as offering a seat? The Government cannot offer a seat. We have all known Governments who would be very glad if they could do so, and who have taken an immense deal of trouble to secure seats for some of their favourites but without any effect whatever except that of putting in the seat the last person that they would desire to see there. You have not got seats to which you can nominate members in the House of Commons. Unless you had a complete change of our constitutional system they

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would have to stand for election like any other Member. If you suddenly set up a sort of aldermanic system in the House of Commons it would be striking at the very foundation of our Constitution and destroying the character of the House of Commons. I venture to say that no House of Commons which is likely to be elected in our time would ever entertain such a proposal for one moment.
In that case you are driven to offering seals in this House to representatives of the Dominions. I do not think that that would meet the difficulty. I hope that in this forthcoming Conference there will be some diseassion—and I am sure there will be—as to whether it is possible ultimately to draw up a scheme which will meet our difficulties, but I confess I do not find any suggestion of a solution in Lord Strathspey's Question. Although I have given an immense amount of consideration and study to this matter, I do not see how we are going at present to get much beyond the system that we have now. I believe that the Dominions have already strengthened the position of the High Commissioners. We here have done a good deal in this direction. Incidentally, we have given them an opportunity to be present whenever they choose at the debates in the Lower House. Their general status with regard to Government Departments is very much higher than it was before the war, and I cannot help thinking that it is in the direction of the post of High Commissioner that future connection will be maintained between the Governments of the Dominions and the Government at home.
The proposal made in another quarter that a Minister should be sent over here representing his own Government is one which, I believe, would not succeed at all because a Minister's presence is only valuable so long as he is in touch with his own Government and knows from daily experience what is going on in his own country from the political point of view. The moment you bring a man over and establish him here, even for six months, you are cutting him off from daily connection with the politics of his own country, and I think the position would be no better than it is at present.
What we do want is to settle another question connected with this very great problem, and that is how we are going to take our Dominions into our confidence
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and get the benefit of their advice before we embark upon any policy which may result in war if, when the war conies, we have to call upon them for their aid. That is the question which has to be solved and it will not be solved by any such proposal as is made by Lord Strathspey. I believe that already steps have been taken in that direction, it is quite easy to keep the Dominions informed beforehand. We have now a cable system which is on the whole excellent and High Commissioners who can be brought into close communication at any moment. I believe it is in that direction that a solution of the problem will be found. I rose only because I should be very sorry if it went forward to the Dominions that the proposal contained in Lord Strathspey's Question has general support here. On the contrary, I believe that the universal feeling is that any proposals for Parliamentary representation or anything of that kind ought to come from the Dominions and ought not to be made by us to them.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I admit that I find myself in a rather difficult position this afternoon as the noble Earl who has put the Question on the Paper did not in his speech, directly or indirectly, refer to the subject matter of the Question, and I had made preparations to deal not with the larger issues which he was beginning to raise but with the specific point which he had placed upon the Paper. I appreciate the fact that the noble Lord takes a very great and genuine interest in the closer association of all parts of the Empire. He has personal knowledge which he is able to bring to bear on the subject and I am sure that those of your Lordships who are fortunate enough to receive a copy of the book which he proposes shortly to issue will read it with the greatest possible interest.
The subject to which he has referred in his Question on the Paper is certainly no new one. It has been discussed in a variety of forms for many years. From a purely constitutional point of view you will bear in mind that the subject of the representation of the Overseas Dominions in this House, or in the Second Chamber, was referred to, although no definite recommendation was made, in the Report of Lord Bryce's Commission in 1918. I

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do not think I need add anything to what has fallen from the noble Viscount, Lord Long, as to the difficulties in the way of arranging seats in another place. We are all aware of the difficulty of finding those seats, and I am afraid that. Lord Strathspey must not look to any solution of the problem in that direction; but, at any rate, on the still wider aspect, what undoubtedly Lord Strathspey had in his mind was a return to the idea—which was prevalent at one time, hut which for a considerable number of years has not, I think, been advocated in any really responsible quarter—of some Federal Parliament.
If it were necessary I could quote many speeches from distinguished Ministers from overseas in which the idea of a Federal Parliament met with complete disapproval and disavowal, and if reference is made to the Imperial Was Conference in the year 1917, it will be seen that this subject was thoroughly and exhaustively discussed. The main objection—there were many—to any idea of a Federal Parliament was that it was an infringement on the autonomous rights of the Dominions, to which both they and we attach the supremest importance. I could quote speeches from the Prime Minister of South Africa, from Sir Robert Borden, and from the then Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Hughes, and others in which not only was any idea of a Federal Parliament disapproved of, but it was suggested that it would be almost a danger instead of an advantage. I can assure your Lordships that the questions of closer association, of the rapid transmission of news, and of seeking advice and guidance from the great Dominions overseas, will certainly be considered at the forthcoming Imperial Conference. But I am bound to say that I see no prospect whatever of any progress being made on the lines indicated by the noble Lord who placed this Question on the Paper.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, your Lordships' House finds itself on this occasion in a position not wholly unusual but still somewhat inconvenient. The Question has been put down on the Paper by the noble Lord on one subject but the speech which he made dealt with another subject altogether. Were it not that I always strive to obey the Rules of order in this House I should be very much tempted to follow him in the remarks
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which he made about Imperial trade. But since he spoke, the debate has been raised to the, level of high constitutional authority by the noble Viscount and the noble Duke. I should not like it to go forth from this House that there is any lack of sympathy on our part with any proposal, from whatever quarter it comes, that we should be brought into closer connection with the self-governing Dominions beyond the seas. I am sure that every member of this House would be only too glad to consider in the most favourable light any plan that is suggested and, if possible with general consent, to give effect to whatever recommendations are made.
The noble Duke made special reference to Lord Bryce's Committee. I remember the discussions which took place on that Committee upon this very point. Naturally, it is not for me to say anything on the question as to how far the self-governing Dominions could be represented in another place, but the question of their representation in this House is, of course, a very much easier one and one which we are quite competent to discuss. I am inclined to think that the answer given by the noble Duke is the true answer, and that the difficulty is not likely to come from this country but rather from the self-governing Dominions. When this matter has been raised not only at the Imperial Conference to which the noble Duke made reference, but also on less formal occasions in debates in newspapers and elsewhere, we have generally found that the obstacles are raised rather from the point of view of the self-governing Dominions than from our point of view. We are always glad to see representatives of the self-governing Dominions in this country, whether they are private visitors or official representatives of those Dominions. If they put forward officially such a demand as that which is contained in the Question, I am sure that we should all be only too anxious to consider it favourably and, if it met with the approval of the Empire, to give effect to it.
LORD STRATHSPEY: My Lords, I apologise if my speech did not follow the lines indicated in my Question, and I wish to thank your Lordships very much for what has been said. I am afraid there was a slight misunderstanding. My idea of an Imperial Parliament was not

1509
of one containing a few members from the self-governing Dominions, for, after all, what effect would twenty, or thirty, or even fifty members from the Dominions in the House of Commons have in an assembly of between six and seven hundred Members? They could not do anything' at all. The idea in my mind was rather that of a true Imperial Parliament representing the whole of the Empire, each part of which might have its quota of members, and sitting in London.

DENTISTS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
EDUCATION (INSTITUTION CHILDREN) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

POSTAL CHARGES.
LORD SOUTHWARK LORD SOUTHWARK had the following Question on the Paper:—
To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the unanimous opinion of the commercial community that an immense volume of postal communications would result from a return to the penny postage, and in view of the unsatisfactory result of increasing the weight of letter packets carried for the minimum charge of 1½d., they will now consider the desirability of reducing the minimum charge for letter packets at home and to all British Possessions, Egypt, U.S.A. and Tangier to one penny, with a corresponding reduction of the weight to one ounce for inland letters and half-an-ounce for other parts of the Empire, U.S.A., etc., thus again realising the idea of Imperial penny postage, which, by increasing communication between this country and the different parts of the Empire, would increase trade and thereby bring increased revenue to the National Exchequer.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in asking the Question which appears on
1510
the Paper in my name I wish to say that chambers of commerce and business men desire to impress upon His Majesty's Government that they should not be timid, but should courageously proceed at once to carry out the sound policy of an Imperial penny postage on the lines suggested in the Question. The reductions in postal charges recently made are not sufficiently great to encourage a vast increase in correspondence. I do not propose to refer to the speech delivered by the Postmaster-General in the House of Commons a few days ago. He considered in detail questions of losses and profits, but the fact is that the present policy of the 1½d. post and the arrangements made in connection with it are not satisfactory, and are not likely to bring about the result that we desire. The delay in announcing the reduction of postal charges has not allowed time for manufacturers and others to prepare their circulars and catalogues for the new season's business, and hence comparatively little progress has been made.
Now is the time to announce further reductions for autumn and New Year business. If an announcement were made immediately that Imperial penny postage, was to be adopted on the lines set out in my Question there would be an enormous increase of postal business before the end of this year, which would mean that our greatest commercial traveller, the Post Office—I have called it by that name before—would be doing a great work in reducing unemployment, setting business going with our Dominions, and, in addition, vastly improving our home trade and increasing the revenue. Whilst my Question deals chiefly with our own Empire, I must add that cheaper foreign postage is urgently needed, too. I should like to commend to His Majesty's Government the splendid, practical letter on penny postage from my noble friend Lord Blyth which appeared in The Times last Saturday. We have every reason to be most grateful to Lord Blyth for the great services he has rendered in regard to cheap postage.
In this connection, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to a matter which is not without interest. Sixty years ago it was publicly recognised in this country that our national well-being is linked up with cheap postage and enduring friendship with France. In 1864 the first Albert medal of the Royal

1511
Society of Arts, which has since been annually presented to the most eminent citizen of any country, was awared to Sir Rowland Hill for
"his great services to arts, manufactures, and commerce in the creation of the penny postage, and for his other reforms in the postal system of this country, the benefits of which have extended over the civilised world."
Those are the terms of the presentation. It is a singular thing that in the following year, 1865, the second Albert medal was awarded to Napoleon III for
" distinguished merit in promoting, in many ways, by his personal exertions, the international progress of arts, manufactures and commerce. … and his enlightened commercial policy. … in favour of British subjects."
These are facts of outstanding importance at this juncture when we wish to continue our friendly relations and commercial intercourse with France.
Cheap postage is wanted, not only to improve trade and commerce, but to add to the domestic happiness and comfort of the many millions of our Empire's population, to whom the penny postage would be a God-send. No better instrument, in my opinion, for commercial and social success can be adopted than the penny postage and a system of frequent communications. If I may say so, I am very glad to see sitting opposite me the noble Duke, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, an ex-Governor-General of Canada, an ex-Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and the possessor of much experience of our Colonies. I was only thinking that if this matter could be pushed forward before the visit of the Dominion Premiers it would afford a very nice opportunity for the noble Duke to inform them that we propose at the earliest possible moment to adopt Imperial penny postage.
The trade of the country is suffering most seriously at the present moment, in my opinion, from the continual changes in the holder of the office of Postmaster-General. Postmasters-General generally begin their term of office without any particular knowledge of postal matters, more especially of postal charges and the great advantage to the country of cheap postage and postal facilities. Chambers of commerce and business men have had to set to work to educate these successive Postmasters-General, and we have always found them very willing to receive instruction,
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to hear our case, and to show great sympathy. Unfortunately, when one is on the point not only of becoming converted but of trying to persuade the Treasury and His Majesty's Government to carry out this reform, another Postmaster-General is introduced, and it seems to me that he starts with anything but a progressive attitude.
Since my noble friend Lord Illingworth was Postmaster-General, the office has been held by Mr. Kellaway, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, and Sir William Joynson-ILicks, and is held at present by my right honourable friend Sir Laming Worthington-Evans. I do not know that Mr. Kellaway began in a very progressive frame of mind, but before he left he had made some progress; he had done something and had promised a great deal more. When Mr. Neville Chamber-lain was appointed Postmaster-General it was felt to be a great advantage by the commercial world. It was said: "Here is a business man who knows all about it, "and in almost the first speech he made outside he expressed himself as in favour of a penny postage and promised to help it in every way. We thought that was a great move in favour of carrying out this wise policy. Then Sir William Joynson-Hicks came in as a thorough enthusiast who wanted to do everything, and was going to do everything. He has left behind him some slight improvements. He has been promoted and he may be useful to us because he occupies the important post of Financial Secretary to the Treasury. That is the office which in the past has generally put a little bit of a check on the wheel of progress in connection with this particular postal reform.
I was hoping that the noble Marquess, the Deputy Leader of the House, was going to reply to me, because I have every reason to be very grateful to him for a very sympathetic answer he gave me on a previous occasion, but I see that he is not in his place. What I want to impress upon His Majesty's Government is this. Having regard to the really strong feeling that exists in favour of this reduction of postage, I urge upon His Majesty's Government to have courage and not to be frightened by-some financial authorities among the permanent officials who assert that it-will result in a great financial loss to

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the country. It will do nothing of the sort. It is because you keep the postage at 1½d. and make the weight higher than is necessary that the present arrangement is not a success. You will find, if you adopt the policy I propose, that you will have an enormous increase in the quantity of postal matter, that the revenue will be higher and that the change will be a benefit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The fact is that this dear postage, as I have pointed out before, is a great clog on the wheel of progress. There arc certain industries to which cheap postage; is no particular advantage, such as the iron, the coal, and the stool industries, and I have hoard it said by noble Lords and others before now that they wished the postage was half-a-crown instead of 1½d. That is not the sort of thing that I am pleading for in connection with the progress of industry. It is the manufacturers, both large and small, who produce articles for general use who want cheap postage as a means of increasing their trade. Cheap postage will be of very great advantage to the people in our Colonies, not only to those engaged in commerce but to the private citizens to some of whom a 1½d. post is expensive.
I have pointed out on previous occasions that the cause of the penny post is damaged by the people who are using halfpenny stamps and sending in open letters documents of a private and confidential character. They do it for the sake of economy. Rather than pay l½d., they put their private business papers into an open envelope, which they stamp with a halfpenny stamp. You would find that in such cases the adoption of a penny post would have a very large influence. I do not know who is going to reply to my Question, but I hope it will be a noble Lord who will have some sympathy with me and will not give me what I might call the usual cut and dried official answer. I hope he will say that although he is only able to give an official answer this afternoon, we may take it from him that he will use his best endeavours to persuade his colleagues to carry out this policy, which, I am certain, would be of great benefit to the country.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, the noble Lord who asked the Question has almost put the answer into my mouth.
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Although I am afraid I cannot altogether meet his wishes on behalf of the Poet Office in every respect, still I hope he will find that the Post Office is not unsympathetic. This is not by any means the first occasion on which the noble Lord has introduced to this House the question of cheaper postage. I am sure that he has always done so in a most friendly way and because of his anxiety that the Government should not lose sight of a reform which he rates, and justly rates, so very highly and as so important-to the trade and commerce of the country. I am sure that nobody is better qualified than the noble Lord, with his knowledge and experience extending over so many years, to speak on behalf of the trade and commerce of the country. I can assure him that His Majesty's Government cordially share his views as to the desirability of re-establishng the penny post at the first possible moment, as soon as financial conditions will allow. They fully appreciate the importance of the Question which he has brought forward, which is in regard to the reduction of the inland postage from 1½d. to 1d. with a corresponding reduction of the weight to one oz. for inland letters and half an ounce for other parts of the Empire, and so on.
Now, finance of course comes into this question most of all. It has been estimated that the reduction of postage from 1½d, to 1d. would mean a net loss of £5,000,000, after allowing for any increase of traffic. The noble Lord laid great stress on the fact that a lower rate of postage would lead to what he described as an immense volume of postal communications, but he will perhaps have seen the speech of my right hon. friend Sir Laming Worthington - Evans, in another place last week, in which it was stated that the result of the reduction from 2d. to 1½d. in June, 3922, had been most disappointing in so far as leading to a great increase in postage is concerned. The net gain was only an increase of 4 per cent. in the number of letters, and therefore there was only an insignificant increase to set against the gross loss of revenue arising from the reduction. If there, were a further reduction from 1½d. to 1d. no doubt there would be an increase of business, and it would probably be more than 4 per cent., but it is quite clear that it would not in

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any way make good the loss of revenue which would result from such a reduction of the rate of postage.
There is one sentence in my noble friend's Question referring to the, "unsatisfactory result of increasing the weight of letter packets carried for the minimum charge of 1½d." I do not quite understand whence my noble friend gets that information, because his view is not shared by the Post Office. The increase from 1 oz. to 2 ozs. has only been in force about two months, and the Post Office see no reason to suppose that the results will be unsatisfactory. A very small amount is involved in any case, because a very large percentage of the letters are under 1 oz. in weight. I may point out to my noble friend that important concessions have been made by the Post Office this year as regards parcels post, heavier letters, and telephone charges, amounting in the aggregate to £2,500,000 a year.
The other point raised by my noble friend was that of Imperial penny postage. I must point out to him that even if we did reduce the rate from 1½d. to 1d. that would not result in Imperial penny postage, because most of the British Possessions have a considerably higher rate than 1d. The Australian rate is 2d., the Canadian 1½d., the Indian 1d., and the South African 2d. Therefore, my noble friend would hardly get Imperial penny postage if his proposal were adopted by the British Government. I hope that my noble friend will not insist upon the ½ oz. which he suggests in his Question. It is considered by the Post Office that it would not materially reduce the loss of revenue, and that the inconvenience would largely outweigh any saving thereby secured. The noble Lord and I are both old enough to remember when the ½ oz. weight was used many years ago. Then all our friends abroad who wrote to us used the horrible paper which was almost transparent, and through which the pen tore holes. If one wrote with a heavy pen the writing was almost illegible. I am afraid that the re-introduction of the ½ oz. weight for letters abroad would result in our going back to that experience.
I think I have dealt with all the points raised by my noble friend. In conclusion, I can only repeat the answer which I outlined at the beginning, that the Government, while entirely sympathising
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with his desire to re-establish penny-postage, consider that it is a reform which the present financial position does not warrant, entailing as it does so much sacrifice of revenue. The question will, however, be fully considered before the next financial year with reference to the estimated revenue and expenditure of the Post Office in 1924–25. It is too early at present to forecast whether the financial situation will justify a further sacrifice of revenue on so large a scale, but the noble Lord may be assured that the matter which he has so much at heart is having the fullest attention of His Majesty's Government.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order); and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

JUDICATURE CONSOLIDATION (PRO-BATE, ETC., DIVISION) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MUIRMACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Judicature Consolidation (Probate, etc., Division) Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills of the present Session.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920, SPECIAL ORDER.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which appears on the Paper in my name. I ought to state that the Order was considered by a Select Committee in another place which heard all the parties interested, and that Select Committee recommended that the Order be agreed to, subject to the modifications and conditions which now appear on the printed Paper before your Lordships.
Moved, That the Draft Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas

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Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Barnsley Gas Company, which was presented on the 24th April, and published, be approved, subject to the following modifications and additions:—
Page 6, at end of Section 25, insert—
"Provided that the Company shall not supply gas under any such contract beyond the limits of supply if and so long as such supply would interfere with the supply of gas within those limits."
Page 10, at end of Section 30, insert—
"Provided that this section shall not apply to any main used by the Company for the supply by them of gas under a contract entered into under Section 25 of this Order."
Page 15, line 1, leave out from the first "the" to "the" in line 2, and insert "1st day of October 1924," and after "fit" insert "on the application of the Company or of the Mayar, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Barnsley."
Page 15, after Section 46, insert Section 46A—
"46A. Until the provisions contained in the First Schedule to this Order shall come into operation, and notwithstanding anything contained in Section 31 of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, the amount which the Company may carry out of the clear profits of the undertaking after the 1st October 1924, to any reserve fund formed in pursuance of the said Section 31, shall not exceed a sum equal to one per centum per annum on the total authorised capital (including loan capital) of the Company."—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I am glad that an agreement has been reached in this case, and I hope your Lordships will concur in the settlement which has been arrived at by the Commons as the result of an Inquiry. That, in my view, is the only proper way in which these Orders, when opposed, can be dealt with. But I hesitate to think what would happen if your Lordships disagreed with the Commons, for the authors of the Act have provided no means for reconciling any difference between the two Houses which might arise in a case such as this, and the moral I draw from that fact is that a Joint Committee of both Houses will be the best tribunal to enquire into future cases.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDERS.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders
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mentioned in the Motions on the Paper, made under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, be approved. They are all simple. No objection has been raised to any of them except the last one, and in that case the objection has now been overcome. I therefore think it would be most convenient to your Lordships if I moved them en bloc.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Coalville, Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Ashby Woulds and Shepshed, the parishes of Barden, Blackfordby, Coleorton, Heather, Measham, Normanton-le-Heath, Oak-thorpe and Donisthorpe, Packington, Ravenstone with Snibston, Swannington, Thringstone and Willesley, in the rural district of Market Bosworth, all in the County of Leicester, which was presented on the 23rd day of July, 1923, be approved. (Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question. Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Matlock, Matlock Bath and Searthin Nick, North Darley and Wirksworth, the parish of Middleton-by-Wirksworth in the rural district of Ashbourne, the parishes of Cromford and Tansley, in the rural district of Bakewell, and the parishes of Alderwadey, Crick, Dethick, Lea and Holloway, Pentrick and South Wingfield, in the rural district of Belper, all in the County of Derby, which was presented on the 26th day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Urban District of Budleigh Salterton, in the County of Devon, which was presented on the 26th day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, for the amendment of the Banstead, Walton-on-the-Hili, and Kingswood Electric Lighting Order, 1914, and the Chipstead and District Electric Lighting Order. 1915, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parishes of Wooburn, Little Marlow, and Hedsor, in the rural district of Wycombe and the urban district of Marlow, all in the County of Buckingham, and parts of the parishes of Cookham and Bisham, in the rural district of Cookham, in the County of Berks, which was presented on the 30th day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Formby, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, which was presented on the
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31st day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Order made by the. Electricity Commissioners, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under Section 7 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, constituting the North Wales and South Cheshire Electricity District and establishing the North Wales and South Cheshire Joint Electricity Authority, which was presented on the 31st day of July, 1923, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
[From Minutes of July 31.]
CHATHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MORLTCY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MACCLESFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION (1924) INCORPORATED (MEMORANDUM AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed for to-morrow.
House adjourned at five o'clock till to - morrow eleven o'clock.

ROBERT GORDON'S COLLEGES AND ABERDEEN ENDOWMENTS TRUST ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
WIMBLEDON AND SUTTON RAILWAY BILL.
WEST RIDING OF YORKSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (DRAINAGE) BILL.
CHESTERFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
LONDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL.
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
TORQUAY CORPORATION BILL.
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered and agreed to.
BROADSTAIRS AND ST. PETERS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL. [H.L.]
CHELMSFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
CROYDON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WAKEFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WEST SOMERSET MINERAL RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SHROPSHIRE, WORCESTERSHIRE AND STAFFORDSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER. BILL. [H.L.]
CHATHAM CORPORATION BILL, [H.L.]
MORLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MACCLESFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.

BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION (1924) INCORPORATED (MEMORANDUM AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
SMOKE ABATEMENT BILL. [H.L.]
House to be in Committee on Tuesday, November 20 next.