Sitting of 24 April 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill [Lords].
Great Western Railway (Swansea Harbour Vesting) Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time.
PRIVATE BILLS (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Wimbledon and Sutton Railway Bill.
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Great Western Railway (Additional Powers) Bill [Lords].
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
William Brown Nimmo Charitable Trust Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  COST OF LIVING (INDEX FIGURES).
  Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, seeing that the present cost-of-living index figure is based upon statistics of family budgets collected nearly 20 years ago, and that the index figure does not accurately represent the present-day cost of living, he proposes to proceed to the collection of the statistics of family budgets which will fairly represent the cost of living at the present time?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): I have been asked to reply. The Ministry of Labour cost-of-living index number is always carefully defined as indicating the average increase in the cost of maintaining unchanged the pre-War standard of living of working-class families. For the purpose of such a calculation the use of pre-War budgets is strictly correct. When working-class conditions become more normal, it will, I think, be desirable that a new index number shall be calculated designed to show the changes in the cost of maintaining a normal post-War standard of living; but before this could be done a new inquiry into working-class expenditure would almost certainly be necessary. I propose to take up the consideration of an inquiry of this kind as soon as conditions become more normal.
  Mr. HANNON: Can the right hon. Gentleman communicate to the House, in view of the importance of the subject to industrial organisations all over Great Britain, how soon this inquiry can be set to work?
  Mr. SEXTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Board of Trade figures for the export trade are based on wholesale prices that do not bear any comparison with the retail prices to the consumer?
  Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Has the right hon. Gentleman noted the criticisms of Mr. James Stamp and others of these figures that they are entirely fallacious because they leave out of account very important factors?
  Sir M. BARLOW: I am aware that criticisms have been made on these figures of the Board of Trade, but I am also aware of the fact that more recently the critics have considerably modified their attitude with regard to the figures; and are satisfied, or decently satisfied, that they are on the proper, and the best, basis. The second question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Helens is hardly a supplementary question to the original question, and should rather be put to the hon. Member who asked the question rather than to myself. As to when the inquiry will be set up I cannot give an answer beyond the original one; that is that it must depend upon conditions becoming reasonably normal. It is quite clear that any calculation based on conditions as at present would not form a reasonable basis for the future.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Is it not the fact that wages went up—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Lieut. - Commander Kenworthy.

  COASTGUARD SERVICE.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade, whether it was intended to employ retired officers of the Royal Navy in those portions of the coastguard service taken over by the Board; whether any retired officers have received appointments; whether the appointments so far have been limited to officers already in the coastguard or those automatically retired by the Admiralty on their transfer to the Board; if he is aware of the very low pensions enjoyed by the retired naval officers who retired before the War; and whether he will consider giving preference to those who are otherwise qualified in lieu of employing officers retired since the War whose pensions are much higher?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Lloyd-Greame): I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a list of the appointments of these ranks made in the Coastguard Service, from which he will see that 23 retired officers
  244
  of the Royal Navy have received appointments. All the officers appointed have had service in the coastguard. In selecting officers for appointment, regard has been paid to the officer's fitness for the post and not to the amount of his pension.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the first part of my question as to whether it was intended to employ these officers, and whether it would not be better to employ the men who have small pre-War pensions?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: No, Sir; in trying to effect economies it is essential that we should get into the service the best men possible. I appointed a special selection committee to consider the applications and I am acting upon their recommendations.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is a fact that those appointed from the Naval Service are those who are in receipt of the newer pensions; and that they have been appointed before they retired, and that this is most unfair to the pre-War pensioners?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I am trying to get the most efficient men for the job, and if you are to get the economies which we have in view and to maintain an efficient service, you must take the best men for the job.

  OIL BORING.
  Mr. HOUFTONasked the Pressident of the Board of Trade the number of bore holes put down in the United Kingdom at the expense of the State for the purpose of searching for oil; and will he state the locality and depth of each bore hole, the results obtained, and the total expenditure incurred?
  The SECRETARY for MINES (Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox): Full particulars of the locality, depth and results of these borings are given in the Annual Report of the Secretary for Mines for the year 1921. The total expenditure, after allowing for amounts realised by sales of oil, plant and machinery, was approximately 2564,000. At only two of the 11 borings was oil found in appreciable quantities; both these wells have now been disposed

  245
  of, and, so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, the operations are at an end.
  Captain Viscount CURZON: Could the hon. and gallant Gentleman say in what way these bore holes have been disposed of?
  Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: The D'Arcy bore hole has been disposed of to a Scottish syndicate and the Hardstoft bore hole to the Duke of Devonshire.
  Mr. HARRIS: Will any advantage that attaches to this expenditure accrue to the State or to a privileged company or to individuals?
  Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: There has been no pecuniary advantage to the State beyond the information gained, only loss up to date.
  Mr. HARDIE: Is it not a fact, and is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware of it, that in selling these wells you are selling that on which you have spent money, and if you cannot sell knowledge what else have you to sell?
  Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: What we have done is the best way of preventing further loss.

  PEACE TREATIES.

    SMYRNA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that serious loss and financial embarrassment is being caused to British firms who had business establishments in Smyrna at the outbreak of war, owing to the prolonged delay in their admitted claims being met; and will he now authorise the payment of grants to relieve their pressing needs, in the same way that financial assistance is being granted to those who suffered damage by enemy action in other countries?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Major Boyd-Carpenter): The question of reparation claims against Turkey is among those to be dealt with in the Treaty of Peace with Turkey, discussion of which is being resumed at Lausanne. His Majesty's Government are not prepared to ask Parliament to vote further sums for making ex gratia grants in respect of such claims at the
    246
    cost of the British taxpayer, but in so far as the claims rank under Annex I to Part VIII of the Treaty of Versailles, they are being dealt with by the Royal Commission on Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action.

  GERMAN REPARATION PAYMENTS.
  Colonel Sir CHARLES BURNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount received in the last financial year from the German Government in respect of reparations; and what amount of the cost of the Army on the Rhine has been met by Germany?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Baldwin): The net cash received by the British Government in the financial year 1922–23 on account of reparation, on which the Army of Occupation cost is a prior charge, was £8,203,000, made up as follows:

  £

  Under the Reparation (Recovery) Act

  7,476,000

  Proceeds of sale of dyestuffs

  361,000

  Paper marks received from German Government for use of Army

  348,000

  Miscellaneous

  18,000

  £8,203,000

  The cost of the British Army of Occupation in 1922–23 was £1,950,000. From 1st May, 1922, the cost of the Army, so far as not met from marks obtained locally, has been met out of the proceeds of the Reparation (Recovery) Act.
  Mr. PRINGLE: Does the Government account to the Reparation Commission for receipts under the Reparation Recovery Act?
  Mr. BALDWIN: I think so, but I should like notice of that question.

  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE.
  Mr. T. THOMSONasked the President of the Board of Trade if, for the information of the members of the Committee dealing with the Industrial Assurance Bill, he will ascertain and state the respective percentage cost to premiums paid of the expenses of the management, collection, and distribution of all funds in

  247
  connection with public health insurance, unemployed insurance, Workmen's Compensation Acts, and industrial assurance collecting societies and companies?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I have communicated with the other Government Departments concerned, and as the answer embodying the information they have supplied is rather long, I propose to circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  I have communicated with the appropriate Government Departments and have obtained the following information:
  (1) Public Health Insurance.—The total expenses of administration of national health insurance are met in part from contributions under the Acts and in part from moneys provided by Parliament. The former represents 7·7 per cent. and the latter 5·3 per cent. of revenue; in all 13 per cent.
  (2) Unemployment Insurance.—All costs borne on the Votes for the Ministry of Labour or other Departments, including the expenses of paying unemployment benefit and the costs incurred in placing insured workpeople in work, amount to 8·3 per cent. of the revenue.
  (3) Workmen's Compensation.—The average total expenditure for the year 1921 is 37·04 per cent., made up of commission, 11·93 per cent.; other expenses of management, 25·11 per cent.
  (4) Industrial Assurance Collecting Societies.—The average total expenditure for the year 1921 is 43·6 per cent., made up as follows:

  Per cent.

  Office salaries

  9·1

  Agents and collectors' remuneration

  29·5

  Other expenditure

  5·0

  (5) Industrial Assurance Companies.—The average total expenditure for the year 1921 is 41·9 per cent., made up as follows:

  Per cent.

  Commission

  22·7

  Other expenses of management

  19·2

  MUTUAL THRIFT SOCIETY, LIMITED.
  Mr. T. JOHNSTONasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the conversion of financially insolvent societies into limited liability companies beyond the jurisdiction of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies; if, in particular, he has had his attention called to the affairs of the Mutual Thrift Society, Limited, of Southport, which has failed with total liabilities of £161,000; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent the future misuse of the Companies Act?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The answer to the first part of this question is in the affirmative. There is a Clause in the Industrial Assurance Bill now before the House which, it is hoped, will bring companies of the kind indicated within the provisions of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909. This will involve their making a deposit of £20,000 before registration, and will also give jurisdiction to the Board to require annual returns to be made by such companies.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these mutual thrift societies will be able to escape the Clause to which he refers in the Bill before us, and is it not the case that the Chief Registrar drew attention, in his Report a year ago, to this particular organisation which is an amalgamation of 73 firms, all of them insolvent, and how long is this sort of thing to go on?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The object of the Clause is to bring these companies within control by imposing special provisions upon them. The answer to the second part of the question is that we have taken the first possible opportunity, namely, the legislation now before the House, to deal with the matter.

  COTTON CLOTH EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES.
  Mr. COLLISONasked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of cotton cloth exported to the United States of America between 30th September, 1921 and 31st March, 1922, and also between 30th September, 1922 and 31st March, 1923?
  Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The answer includes some figures; and, if the hon. Member has no objection, I will have it circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  The quantities and values of cotton piece goods of domestic manufacture exported from the United Kingdom and registered as consigned to the United States amounted to 56,673,900 square yards, valued at £3,631,943, in the six months ended 31st March, 1922, and to 64,941,800 square yards, valued at £3,577,069, in the six months ended 31st March, 1923.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS

    BOARD OF TRADE.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will inform the House of what persons the Board of Trade is composed; on what date the Board last met for the transaction of business; and by whose instructions was it pleaded, in a recent case on behalf of the Board, that no action could be brought against the Board of Trade except by the service of a writ on each one of its members, including His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The constitution of the "Board of Trade" is set out in an Order in Council dated 23rd August, 1786, the terms of which I am having circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am unable to say when the Board, in its corporate capacity, last met for the transaction of business. With regard to the last part of the question, the real ground in dispute was whether an action lay at all against the Board of Trade. The instructions which I have given are that where an action in fact lies, the Board of Trade solicitor shall accept service. This has been done in the case referred to.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is undesirable on the part of a Department of the State to rely upon a technical plea of this kind in defence of an action; would it not be much better to lay their case properly before the Court and to say the action has been improperly brought?
    Mr. HANNON: Is the Speaker of the Irish House of Commons still a member of the Board of Trade?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: If the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Moseley Division will look at the very interesting contribution of that body when it last met he will get the information he desires. My hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) is under a misapprehension: the new defence to this action was whether action did or did not lie against the Board of Trade. That is the substantial point. If the action does lie at all, the Board will not rely upon the technical question of service on members, but will instruct their solicitor to accept service.
    Following is the Order in, Council mentioned.
    At the Court at St. James's, the 23rd August, 1786.
    PRESENT:
    The King's Most Excellent Majesty.

    Archbishop of Canterbury.

    Lord Steward.

    Duke of Montagu.

    Marquis of Carmarthen.

    Lord Chamberlain.

    Earl of Clarendon.

    Earl of Courtown.

    Lord Amherst.

    Lord Sydney.

    Lord Hawkesbury.

    Sir Geo. Yonge, Bart.

    Mr. Pitt.

    W. W. Grenville, Esq.

    His Majesty was this day pleased to revoke his Order in Council, bearing date the 5th day of March, 1784, appointing a Committee of Privy Council for the consideration of all matters relating to trade and foreign plantations, and to declare the said Committee dissolved. And His Majesty was pleased at the same time to appoint a new Committee of Privy Council for the business above mentioned, and to declare that—

    The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury,

    The First Lord Commissioner of the Treasury,

    The First Lord Commissioner of the Admiralty,

    His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State,

    The Chancellor and Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer, and

    The Speaker of the House of Commons, should be members of the said Committee.
    And that such of the Lords of His Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council as shall hold any of the following offices, namely:

    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster,

    The Paymaster or Paymasters-General of His Majesty's Forces,

    The Treasurer of His Majesty's Navy, and

    The Master of His Majesty's Mint, should be members of the said Committee.

    And His Majesty was at the same time pleased to order that the Speaker of the House of Commons of Ireland, and such persons as shall hold offices in His Majesty's Kingdom of Ireland and shall be members of His Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council in this Kingdom, should also be members of the said Committee.
    And His Majesty was further pleased to order that—

    Lord Frederick Campbell,

    Robert, Lord Bishop of London,

    Lord Grantley,

    Sir Lloyd Kenyon, Master of the Rolls (afterwards Lord Kenyon),

    The Honourable Thomas Harley,

    The Honourable Sir Joseph Yorke, K.B. (afterwards Lord Dover),

    Sir John Goodriche, Bart.,

    William Eden, Esq. (afterwards Lord Auckland),

    James Grenville, Esq., and

    Thomas Orde, Esq.,

    should also be members of the said Committee.
    And His Majesty is hereby further pleased to order that the Right Honourable Lord Hawkesbury, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and in his absence the Right Honourable William Wyndham Grenville, be President of the said Committee.

    TEMPORARY CLERKS (GRADE 3).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the rate paid for Grade 3 temporary clerks in the provinces outside the big towns; what is the rate for the big towns, such as Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, etc.; and what is the rate for London; and if he is aware
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    that many of these State servants complain that the wages paid them are totally inadequate for the maintenance of married men and their families?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The rates of pay of Grade 3 temporary male clerks vary according to the hours of attendance (42, 44 or 48 hours a week), but the typical rates, i.e. those for 42 or 44 hours a week, are as follow:

    42 hours a week.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    London

    …

    56

    3

    —

    62

    10

    Large towns

    …

    52

    9

    —

    59

    4

    Provinces

    …

    49

    3

    —

    55

    10

    44 hours a week.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    London

    …

    60

    8

    —

    67

    3

    Large towns

    …

    57

    1

    —

    63

    8

    Provinces

    …

    53

    7

    —

    60

    2

    As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for Walthamstow on the 14th December last.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us his own answer to the last part of the question? Does he think these are adequate wages?
    Major PAGET: What length of holidays do these clerks get?
    Mr. J. JONES: What length of holidays do Members of Parliament get?

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    EXPORTS TO GERMANY.
    Brigadier-General SPEARSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the figures for the amount of coal exported to Germany from the United Kingdom during the three months 15th January to 15th April, and for the previous three months?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: The quantity of coal exported to Germany from this country in the three months January, February and March was 3,358,350 tons, as compared with 2,163,520 tons during the previous three months. I regret that I cannot give figures for part of a calendar month.

    THERMAL VALUE.
    Mr. HARDIEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the question of buying coal by its thermal value has been considered by his Department in relation to gas manufacture?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The basis upon which coal is purchased for the manufacture of gas is not a matter in which the Board of Trade have any jurisdiction. I am, of course, aware that the thermal value of the coal is one of the important factors in relation to its suitability for gas making.
    Mr. HARDIE: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me what has happened to the Committee spoken of the last time this question was discussed in the House, when he said it was being referred to a Committee? The Secretary for Mines also stated that they were going to consider the thermal value of the coal supplied to gas workers, and I want to know if that has been done?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The Committee to which I referred has not only been set up, but it has made its Report. It was a Committee dealing generally with charging for gas by therms. The Board of Trade had a meeting with the gas companies.
    Mr. HARDIE: Can I get an answer as to the truth of my statement that the right hon. Gentleman said it would be referred to and dealt with by a Committee which would deal with the thermal value of coal? I notice from the Report of the Committee that they have not dealt with that point.
    Mr. J. JONES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why the men employed in the gas works have not been consulted in addition to the gas companies?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The gas companies are the people who sell the gas to the public.
    Mr. J. JONES: But we make it.

    TRUCKS, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary for Mines the extent to which work in the collieries in Fifeshire and the Lothians has been held up during March by the shortage of trucks; and what steps, if
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    any, are being taken to relieve the congestion which exists at ports on the East Coast of Scotland?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: According to the returns furnished to my Department, the number of coalwinding days lost by the mines in Fifeshire and the Lothians during March owing to transport difficulties was negligible (less than 01 of a day per week on the average. As regards the last part of the question, I have not been asked to take any action to relieve congestion at the Scottish ports, nor do I think it would be in my power to do so.

    MINERS' NYSTAGMUS.
    Mr. BARKERasked the Secretary for Mines what steps are being taken to reduce the number of cases of miners' nystagmus, which has increased from 1·94 per thousand employed below ground in the year 1910 to 7·40 similarly employed in the year 1921; if the Mines Research Board has made any investigations into the cause of the great increase in the disablement cases due to this complaint; whether it is due to bad ventilation or to bad lighting or to both; and if he intends to avail himself of the power vested in him to issue orders and regulations dealing with this matter?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 16th April to the hon. Member for Mansfield. The Miners' Nystagmus Committee of the Medical Research Council, in their first report, record the opinion that "the essential factor in the production of miners' nystagmus is deficient illumination "and that" the ordinary gaseous impurities in mine air have no direct influence on the disease." The Committee are continuing their researches, including the study of the operation underground of remedial measures, and I must await their further, report before considering whether the matter can usefully be dealt with by regulation.
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: In view of the fact that the reports of the Medical Research Council are not available, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman circulate them to hon. Members representing mining constituencies?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: I will see what can be done when the report is ready.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    RUSSIAN TRADE DELEGATION.
    Lieut.-Colonel SPENDER-CLAYasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the functions of the Russian Trade Delegation in London; and what is the value of our exports and imports to and from Russia during the past three months?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The proper function of the Russian Trade Delegation is to promote and carry on trade between Russia and Great Britain in accordance with the provisions of Articles 4, 5 and 6 of the Russian Trade Agreement. The value of that trade during the last quarter for which figures are at present available, namely, that ending 31st December, 1922, was: Imports from Russia, £4,986,104; exports to Russia, including re-exports, £1,338,082.
    Captain BERKELEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that those imports might be very substantially increased if the relations of the two countries were placed upon a more friendly basis?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: No, Sir. My experience is that, as long as the Russian Government refuse to establish a position under which credit can be given, business can only be done on the basis of cash at sight.
    Mr. RILEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the period referred to the exports from America to Russia and exports from Germany to Russia were respectively three times more from Germany and four times more from America than our own?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise.

    ENEMY ACTION CLAIMS.
    Mr. PETOasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that there are eight known cases in the small port of Appledore alone of men who have suffered during the War owing to their vessels being torpedoed by enemy action, and one case of a widow who lost her husband, and that in none of these cases was the advertised date for sending claims known; and can he give assurance that these
    256
    people will not be debarred from any compensation owing to their omission to send in their claims before?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I would refer to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Kirkdale Division of Liverpool on 19th February, of which I am sending him a copy.

    BRITISH ARMY.

      TROOPS (NORTHERN IRELAND).
      Mr. FRANK GRAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the promises made by the Secretary of State for War during his progress through Northern Ireland with regard to the reopening of military depots indicates a change in the policy of the Government to reduce the troops in Northern Ireland from 10 battalions to five?
      The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): The answer is in the negative.

      ROYAL ENGINEERS (OFFICERS' PAY).
      Major ATTLEEasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will take steps to remove the differentiation shown against the commissioned officers of the staff for Royal Engineer services who, although fully qualified professionally, have not shared in any of the increased emoluments and allowances granted to other ranks of the service?
      The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Gwynne): These officers, though commissioned, have always been paid on Civil Service lines, and they have received War bonus as though they were civil servants. A Departmental Committee is considering their future conditions of service.

      MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
      Mr. F. GRAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the fact that Government Departments have been instructed to regard the cost-of-living index figure as 85 in their calculations of staff bonuses for the year 1923–24, he is now prepared to apply the same principles in respect of allowances to the dependants of serving soldiers?
      Mr. GWYNNE: I think the hon. Member is under some misapprehension. An index of 85 is the basis on which

      257
      Departments were instructed to prepare their Estimates for the current year, but the rates paid to civil servants are fixed twice a year on the basis of the actual average index of the preceding period. For marriage allowance the rate is fixed annually, also having regard to the actual figures of the preceding year. It happens that the basis in both cases at the present time is an index of 80.

      PENSIONS (FORM D 415).
      Mr. BECKERasked the Under-Secretary of State for War under what authority Army Form D 415 was issued; what is the authority for withholding pension in cases where a pensioner fails to render the above form; and whether he is aware of the feeling amongst ex-service pensioners owing to the introduction of this form?
      Mr. GWYNNE: This Army form was in use for many years before the War, and has been re-introduced in accordance with Treasury direction, and with the views expressed by the Public Accounts Committee in their third Report in 1921. Failure to render the form involves doubt, as to the claimant's identity, and payment in such cases is necessarily delayed pending inquiry. In regard to the last part of the question, I am not aware that there is any special feeling amongst pensioners other than the normal feeling of annoyance which is shared by all of as when we are asked to fill up Government forms.
      Mr. HARMSWORTH: Is it absolutely necessary to issue one more form for ex-service men to fill up?
      Mr. GWYNNE: I think it saves delay in the long run if the Department is quite certain as to the facts.
      Mr. BECKER: Is the hon. Member aware that the ex-service men referred to in the last part of the question feel like ticket-of-leave men after filling up this form, and that is why I want it to be made a little more elastic?
      Mr. GWYNNE: It is merely filling a form up each year, in order that the benefits may be certified.

      EDUCATIONAL CORPS (WARRANT OFFICERS' COMPENSATION).
      Mr. CHARLES CROOKasked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the amount of compensation payable to
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      warrant officers, Class 2, in the Army Educational Corps, who, on completion of eight years service from the date of confirmation in their appointments, are now compelled to accept the abrogation of their rights of promotion to warrant officer, Class 1?
      Mr. GWYNNE: Under the Royal Warrant published as Army Order 54 of 1923 the amount in question is £35.
      Mr. CROOK: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a distinct breach of faith to these officers preventing them applying for their pensions when they thought they were going to receive generous compensation?
      Mr. GWYNNE: That may be a matter of opinion. I do not think that the hon. Member is right in saying that there has been a breach of faith. These men still remain on.

      WIRELESS CODE BOOKS.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any secret wireless code books are missing from the War Office?
      Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: No, Sir, the War Office is not aware that any such books are missing.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman not seen the circumstantial detailed account in the "Star" newspaper last night? Are we to understand that there is no truth at all in that report?
      Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: We have made every inquiry, and find no trace of anything of the kind.

      RHINE ARMY CANTEENS (STERLING PAY).
      Major - General Sir ROBERT HUTCHISONasked the Under-Secretary of State for War when he proposes to allow soldiers in the Rhine Army to pay for goods purchased from the Army canteen for sterling at the same rate in marks for the £ sterling as that at which they were last paid their Army pay?
      Mr. GWYNNE: I regret that the Navy, Army and Air Force institutes have not found it possible to price the goods sold in the canteens at prices converted at the official rates. In order, however, that the official rates at which the troops are paid

      259
      may correspond more closely to the rates at which goods are sold in the canteens, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief has been informed that he is at liberty to pay the troops and fix the official rates twice a week whenever he considers it desirable.
      Sir R. HUTCHISON: Does the hon. Member think that is carrying out the pledge given by his predecessor in office during the Debate in which he said that he would do his best to allow the men to use the marks they receive at a certain rate per pound to buy goods in the canteen?
      Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is giving no chance to hon. Members who have other questions on the Paper. His supplementary question is much too long.

      FLOUR (TENDERS).
      Mr. SHEPPERSONasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in inviting tenders for the supply of wheat flour, his Department stipulates that a percentage of English wheat shall be used; and, if so, what are the terms of the stipulation?
      Mr. GWYNNE: No stipulation is at present included in the War Department's specification for flour to the effect that a percentage of English wheat is to be used I will, however, make inquiries on the subject. There is, of course, nothing to preclude the use of English wheat.

      MACHINE TOOLS (GOVERNMENT SURPLUS SALES).
      Mr. PIELOUasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what were the sales by the Disposal and Liquidation Commission of machine tools during the years 1919, 1920, 1921, and 1922, respectively, giving both weight of machines sold and total value, if both figures are available?
      Major BOYD-CARPENTER: I have been asked to answer this question. I regret that these figures are not available, and, with the present depleted staffs, it is not feasible to undertake the very considerable work which the preparation of this Return would entail.

    SCOTLAND.

      LAND TAXES, ROSS-SHIRE.
      Mr. MACPHERSONasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland, whether he is aware that in the parish of Newhall-Resolis, Ross-shire, many small farmers and crofters have purchased their holdings, and that, in addition to teinds, they have to pay another tax commonly called bishop or parsonage and vicarage tax, varying from £10 to £20; will he state on what grounds this burden is placed upon them by the official Crown receiver: and why a local gentleman is made personally responsible for the collection of this tax?
      The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Robert Sanders): I have been asked to reply, as this question relates to the Land Revenues of the Crown which are administered by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. The so-called tax is, in fact, a feu duty payable to the Crown as the superior of the lands. All the several parts of the lands out of which the duty is payable are liable for the whole of the duty, and, in accordance with the usual practice, the Crown claimed the duty from the purchaser of the largest portion of the lands, leaving him to exercise his right of relief against the other purchasers. I may add that the Commissioner of Woods would be prepared to agree to a formal allocation of the duties between the different Proprietors, subject to the addition of £2 per annum (being approximately 2½ per cent. of the annual charge) to the cumulo duty, to cover the extra trouble and expense of collection, etc., and to the proprietors paying the cost of the necessary Minute of Allocation.

      HOUSING.
      Mr. W. WATSONasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health, if his attention has been drawn to the demand made at a meeting of the Scottish National Housing and Town Planning Committee at Bridge of Allan that a subsidy of £10 per house should be allowed in the industrial districts in Scotland; and will he endeavour to ascertain the opinion of local authorities on that point before the Housing Bill is proceeded with?
      Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland): I have seen a report of the meeting of the Committee referred to. The views of representatives of local authorities in Scotland as to the amount of the subsidy have already been ascertained, and have been the subject of most careful consideration by the Scottish Board of Health and the Secretary for Scotland.
      Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman of opinion that the cost of building in Scotland is necessarily higher than in England?
      Captain ELLIOT: There are some subsequent questions on that point on the Order Paper to-day.
      Mr. HOGGE: Is the Scottish Board of Health of opinion that it is possible to build houses in rural areas in Scotland as cheaply as in burghs?
      Captain ELLIOT: I do not think that that arises.
      Mr. HOGGE: On a point of Order That is the question. The question deals with the cost of building in rural areas, and what I want to know is, has the Scottish Board of Health considered the question whether it is possible to build, on the subsidy available under the Housing Bill which is to be introduced this afternoon, on the same basis as in the burghs?
      Mr. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member had better wait till we reach the subsequent questions on that point.
      Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if the quota of new houses due to Scotland under the 1919 Act is 28,900; if the Scottish Board of Health had sanctioned 23,600 up to 28th February, 1923; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that the balance of 5,300 is secured to Scotland before July of next year?
      Captain ELLIOT: The quota of new houses allocated to Scotland in schemes under the 1919 Act is 25,550. The figure first quoted in the hon. Member's question is an estimate and includes the numbers of houses that were expected to be erected under the Private Builders' and Crofters' Subsidy Schemes, namely, 3,200 and 150 houses respectively. Up to 28th February, 1923, the Scottish Board of
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      Health had sanctioned tenders for 22,530 of the houses allocated to schemes under the 1919 Act. In order to secure that the outstanding balance of allocated houses is completed before the elapse of the subsidy period (19th August, 1924), the Scottish Board of Health are in communication with the authorities concerned, with a view to their submission of tenders at the earliest practicable date.
      Mr. DUNCAN MILLARasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the difference per house in the cost of building in Scotland as compared with England brought out by the Scottish local authorities in the representations made by them to the Scottish Office for a larger subsidy than £6 per house in Scotland: whether these figures have been checked by the Scottish Ministry of Health; and what difference in cost has been accepted by the Scottish Ministry of Health?
      Captain ELLIOT: The difference per house in the cost of building in Scotland as compared with England brought out by the expert officers of the Scottish local authorities was £38 10s. The figures submitted have been checked by the Scottish Board of Health, who consider that £23 may be accepted as the difference in cost per house warranted by Scottish climatic conditions.
      Mr. MILLAR: Is it not the case that when Scottish houses of the ordinary type were compared with English houses the difference brought out by the local authorities was £122?
      Captain ELLIOT: No, Sir. Those were two different houses, and you cannot compare the cost of building one house with the cost of building another house unless the two houses are the same.
      Mr. MACPHERSON: Does not that justify a difference in the amount of subsidy?
      Captain ELLIOT: The hon. and learned Member has a subsequent question on the Paper on that very point.
      Mr. MILLARalso asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether representations have been received by him from the Scottish local authorities and the Scottish Committee appointed to advise the Scottish Office as to Scottish housing requirements,

      263
      setting forth the difference in Scottish housing needs and conditions from those in England and calling for a larger subsidy than the £6 per house provided for England; and whether the Scottish Office have supported the claim for a larger subsidy on account of the special conditions prevailing in Scotland and the need for providing sufficiently weatherproof walls and roofs?
      Captain ELLIOT: Representations of the nature referred to have been received. It appeared to the Scottish Board of Health that for climatic reasons a somewhat more favourable annual subsidy per house should be granted in Scotland, but, as stated in the reply given on the 29th March by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland to a question addressed to him by the hon. Member for Midlothian and Peebles (Mr. Clark Hutchison), it has not been found practicable to differentiate the conditions of subsidy in the two countries.
      Several hon. Members rose—
      Mr. SPEAKER: There will be a Debate on the matter later in the afternoon.
      Mr. MILLARasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the standard in regard to room-space, height, strength of walls and roofs, adopted by the Scottish local authorities in their building schemes as approved by the Scottish Ministry of Health, under the Housing and Town Planning (Scotland) Act, 1919?
      Captain ELLIOT: As the reply to this question is somewhat lengthy and technical, I propose, with the permission of the hon. and learned Member, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      Following is the reply:
      HOUSING IN SCOTLAND.
      Statement of General Building Standards.
      (1) Room Space:

      Living room, 180 square feet.

      Scullery, 70–80 square feet.

      1st Bedroom, 150–160 square feet.

      2nd Bedroom, 110–120 square feet.

      3rd Bedroom, 80 square feet.

      (2) Heights of Ceilings:
      Ground Floors, 8 feet 6 inches.
      Upper Floors for

      (a) Cottages, 8 feet.

      (b) Flatted houses, 8 feet 6 inches, and

      (c) Tenements, 8 feet 6 inches.

      (3) Strength of Outer Walls for

      (i) Brick or Concrete. Construction,

      (a) 14 inch or 9 inch solid walls, rough cast externally and strapped and lathed internally, or

      (b) 16 inch or 11 inch hollow walls, rough cast externally and plastered on hard internally.

      (ii) Stone Construction.

      24 inch or 18 inch solid walls either pointed or rough cast externally and strapped and lathed internally.
      The thickness of walls depends on height of buildings, local conditions and materials available.
      (4) Roofs:
      Scantlings of roof timbers are:
      Rafters, 5 inches by 2 inches, and Ties, 6 inches by 2 inches.

      DEATH RATE, GLASGOW.
      Sir WILLIAM LANE MITCHELLasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the death rate in the City of Glasgow for 1913 and for the last year in which the figures are available; and also the infantile death rate in the City of Glasgow for 1913 and for the last year in which the figures are available?
      Captain ELLIOT: The death rate for the City of Glasgow, corrected for transfers, for 1913 and for 1922, was in both cases 17.2 per 1,000 of population. The corrected death rates of children under one year for 1913 and for 1922 were 129 and 120 respectively per 1,000 births.

      LAND SETTLEMENT.
      Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIRasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that, in spite of the assurances that demands for rent from ex-service men who received holdings from the Board of

      265
      Agriculture in Caithness and Sutherland since the War would not be pressed while the terms of reference to the Land Court for the revaluation of these holdings were still under the consideration of the Secretary for Scotland, a letter dated the 17th of March, 1923, was addressed to Mr. Angus Mackenzie, of No. 4 holding, Wast Watten, and to other smallholders similarly situated, pressing them on this very point: and whether he will undertake that all demands for rent will be suspended until the Land Court has revalued the holdings?
      Captain ELLIOT: The assurance which was given was that nothing prejudicial to the interests of the holders would be pressed while the subject of the reference to the Land Court was under the consideration of my Noble Friend. That assurance did not mean that all payments by the holders were to be suspended pending the competion of any revaluation, and the Board's letter was sent in reply to resolutions to the effect that no further payments would be made by the holders concerned pending revaluation. It would not be in the interests of the smallholders or in the public interest to suspend all such payments pending revaluation, and my Noble Friend is not prepared to give the undertaking suggested in the last part of the question. If in any instance revaluation is likely to lead to a reduction of the payments, the Board will be prepared to accept a reasonable payment on account subject to readjustment after any evaluation is completed.
      Sir A. SINCLAIR: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the assurance to which allusion is made was in answer to a question whether these men would be pressed for their rent and interest charges? To what could the assurance possibly refer except to the rent and interest charges?
      Captain ELLIOT: Surely the hon. Baronet will realise that there is a great difference between a reduction in these charges and the total abolition of the charges.
      Sir A. SINCLAIR: It is not claimed that there should be an abolition of these charges, but that the men should not be pressed for payment.

      TRAWLING.
      Mr. MACPHERSONasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether the Secretary for Scotland is going to appoint a Committee to consider the question of trawling, legal and illegal, in Scotland?
      Captain ELLIOT: My Noble Friend does not, as at present advised, contemplate the institution of a special inquiry of the nature suggested, but, if a case is presented for inquiry into any aspect of the question, he would be prepared to consider it.
      Mr. MACPHERSON: Is it not a fact that Scottish Members of this House have presented case after case for inquiry? In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I have just received, I beg to give notice that I will raise this question on the first available opportunity.
      Mr. HARMSWORTH: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider it just that German trawlers should be allowed to fish in these areas to the detriment of the English trawlers who are not allowed in these areas?

    TRANSPORT.

      SCOTTISH RAILWAYS (ROLLING-STOCK ORDERS).
      Mr. WILLIAM HUTCHISONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether his attention has been called to the fact that, as the result of the recent grouping of certain English and Scottish railways, with the consequent passing of the executive control to the headquarters of these railways in London, orders for all classes of rolling stock and railway materials, which were formerly placed in Scotland for the Scottish sections of these groups, are now being placed with works situated in England, to the serious prejudice of trade and employment in Scotland; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made as to the policy now being adopted in this matter with the view of introducing legislation ensuring that in the future the makers of such rolling stock and railway materials in Scotland are placed at no disadvantage as compared with the position that they occupied before the grouping took place?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): I must remind my hon. Friend that the question he raises is one for the commercial discretion of the companies. I am therefore unable to adopt the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
      Mr. J. JONES: In view of the powers given by legal enactment to the railway companies, has this House no power to act?
      Colonel ASHLEY: The Ministry have no power to act. The House has always power to act by legislation.

      BASINGSTOKE AND ALTON LIGHT RAILWAY
      Mr. LAMBasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport what compensation was paid to the London and South Western Railway Company for the taking up of the rails of the Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway; whether any payment was paid to the company in respect of the relaying of the line; and, if not, whether, in the event of the line being relaid, any contribution would be payable to the company?
      Colonel ASHLEY: I understand that the payment of upwards of £26,000 made to the London and South Western Railway Company by the Ministry of Munitions for the permanent way materials of the Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway was calculated on the scale described as applicable to materials taken from a running line, which will not be restored, and in these circumstances the railway company is not entitled to make any claim for the cost of replacement.

      POTATOES (RAILWAY FREIGHTS).
      Mr. COLLISONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he will state the rate of railway freights per ton on potatoes from Spalding to King's Cross in the years 1913 and 1922 and 1923, respectively; and if he will give the average wholesale price paid to the grower for the same years?
      Colonel ASHLEY: The rate for old potatoes in bulk or in sacks, minimum 5 tons per truck, from Spalding to King's Cross by merchandise train, in the latter half of 1913, was 8s. 8d. per ton. In April, 1922, the rate was 18s. 1d. per ton, and at the present time it is 15s. 6d.
      268
      per ton. On the 1st proximo the rate will be reduced to 13s. 4d. per ton. I am informed by the Ministry of Agriculture that they have no particulars of the price of potatoes at Spalding, but their records show that at Wisbech the average price in 1913 was 64s. a ton; in 1922, 92s. a ton, and in January to March, 1923, 36s. per ton.

      HIGHWAY AUTHORITIES (GRANTS).
      Dr. CHAPPLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he has taken any steps to give effect to the Motion carried in this House in favour of the adequate taxation of mechanically propelled vehicles on county toads and the increase of grants to road authorities?
      Colonel ASHLEY: As already announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, it is proposed that special allocations from the Road Fund, amounting to about £1,250,000, shall be made during the current financial year to highway authorities in rural areas. The extent of the assistance which can be rendered by way of grants to highway authorities, towards the cost of road maintenance and improvement, is limited by the amount of revenue accruing to the Road Fund from the taxation of road vehicles. Though this revenue shows a natural tendency to expand in conformity with the increase in the number of vehicles which are licensed, no substantial addition to the revenue for grants to highway authorities can be anticipated without an increase in the present scale of taxation.
      Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the almost universal demand that the taxation of motor cars shall bear some proportion to the wear and tear which they cause to the roads?

    URBAN RATES (RELIEF).
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Prime Minister, in view of the promised grant of £2,750,000 in relief of agricultural rates, what corresponding assistance the Government propose to give in the relief of urban rates?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy): I have been asked to

    269
    reply. The proposed grant is intended to make good the deficiency caused by the reduced rating of agricultural land and the grant will be payable in urban as well as rural areas.

  FRANCE AND RUHR DISTRICT.

    GERMAN COMMISSIONER (EXPULSION)
    Captain BENNasked the Prime Minister whether the German Commissioner for the occupied territories has been expelled; and whether this step has the approval of His Majesty's Government?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement made in the House yesterday, in reply to the hon. Member for Brightside, on this subject.

    BRITISH GOODS (CUSTOMS DUTY).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the question of the disposal of the money collected by the French Customs posts in the Ruhr district on British goods entering the occupied territory has yet been settled; and what steps are now being taken by His Majesty's Government to pursue the question?
    Mr. BALDWIN: There is nothing at present to add to the reply given by my hon. Friend on the 17th April.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say something in regard to the last part of the question, which has not been answered yet? What steps are the Government taking to get this money or some satisfaction? Are we doing anything?
    Mr. BALDWIN: In trying to obtain a settlement, as the hon. and gallant Member knows, it is always a difficult, thing to do where there is a number of parties.
    Captain BENN: Will the right. hon. Gentleman challenge the statement that none of the money that these British traders pay in Germany will ever come to the British Exchequer?

    HOUSING (PRIVATE MEMBER'S BILL).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Prime Minister whether the Government will grant facilities to discuss the Housing Bill presented by the hon. Member for Westhoughton?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I regret that the Government are unable to give facilities for this Bill, but my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will be prepared to discuss any of its proposals in Committee if they are put down by way of amendment to the Housing (No. 2) Bill.

    TRAINED NURSES.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that there are still various matters causing much unrest and friction among the trained nurses in the country, and thereby prejudicing the care of the sick of all classes; and whether, in these circumstances, he will appoint a Select Committee of the House of Commons to investigate the whole issue?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am not aware that the care of the sick is being prejudiced by professional controversies within the nursing profession. The questions at issue were fully discussed in connection with the passing of the Nurses Registration Act at the end of 1919; and I do not think that any occasion has arisen, for the appointment of a Select Committee.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
    Sir WALTER PRESTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that moat civil servants in the Inland Revenue who joined up during the War are allowed to count their War services towards qualifying them for promotion and pension, whereas some are not; which is the particular class penalised; and what is the reason for so penalising these men?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: I am not aware of any case in which an officer's absence on War service has prejudiced his pension rights, or, subject to actual fitness for undertaking higher duties, has

    271
    retarded promotion after his return to civil life.
    Sir W. PRESTON: If I can bring the hon. Member particulars of a case where an officer has lost promotion will he give it his attention?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: I shall be very glad indeed to hear of such a case.

    CIVIL SERVICE (EXAMINATIONS).
    Sir W. PRESTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that ex-service men temporarily employed as civil servants who wish by examination to qualify as permanent civil servants are required to obtain 65 per cent. of the possible marks in such examination, whereas the ordinary candidate only requires 50 per cent. of the marks to qualify; and what is the reason for the differentiation?
    Major BOYD-CARPENTER: There is no foundation for either of the suggestions contained in the first part of the question. In the examinations of persons serving in a temporary capacity in the Civil Service for permanent appointments in the clerical class the pass-mark has been 61 per cent. in all cases, whether men or women, ex-service or non-service men. For examinations of different kinds and for different posts the pass-mark is made appropriate to the circumstances, and as a matter of fact the pass-marks of examinations recently held by the Commissioners range from 32 per cent. to 67 per cent.

    TUBERCULAR CASES (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a communication from the British Legion, dated the 14th April, 1923, in connection with village settlement schemes for tubercular ex-service men as recommended by the Barlow Report of 1918, urging the completion of the village settlements at Papworth Hall and Barrowmore, and the establishment of further settlements; and whether, in view of the fact that a very considerable number of ex-service men are still suffering from tuberculosis, he will devote some portion of the Budget surplus to provide this accommodation?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question on Thursday last by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith.
    Dr. WATTS: Will the right hon. Gentleman cease to expend any more money on these schemes, which are useless in regard to either the cure or prevention of tuberculosis, and devote any funds he may have to assisting Monsieur Sphahlinger to produce a supply of his serum and vaccine, which is at present held up for want of funds?

  FINANCE BILL.

    TITLES (TAXATION).
    Mr. POTTSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will undertake to introduce legislation whereby personages enjoying titled names under the present laws of the realm may be called upon to pay a title tax, graduated on the basis of the dignity deemed to be created by the conferment of the title?
    Mr. BALDWIN: As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, charges by way of fees and stamp duties on a graduated scale, ranging from £270 2s. in the case of a baronet to £730 2s. in the case of a duke, are now normally imposed on the creation of hereditary honours. The amounts of revenue which would be received from a tax on titled names would not be considerable and I am not prepared to introduce legislation.
    Mr. POTTS: May I ask whether the taxing of titled persons according to means and merits of title—
    Mr. SPEAKER: If the hon. Member has written out his question, he should hand it in.

    BETTING TAX.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now state the names of those whom he proposes to nominate to the Committee to investigate the proposal of tax betting?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Steps are being taken in the usual way with a view to setting up the proposed Select Committee as soon as possible. As soon as the necessary arrangements have been made, the names

    273
    of members and the terms of reference will appear on the Paper in the usual manner.
    Mr. SHORT: When may I put the question down again?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The names will be announced in a few days. It will not be necessary to put down a question.
    Mr. CLYNES: Is it intended that this Committee shall sit in public?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I think it is a matter for the Committee.
    Sir JOHN BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the terms of reference to the Select Committee on Betting will authorise them to consider the question of the use of the totalisator on racecourses?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I must ask my hon. and learned Friend to await the publication of the terms of reference to the proposed Select Committee Which will, I hope, appear on the Paper at an early date.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large sum comes to the public accounts through the use of the totaliser in France and other countries where it is used?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am aware of that. I have considerable doubts whether it will be possible to investigate that subject.

    INCOME TAX AND SUPER-TAX.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the total sums of Income Tax and Super-tax, respectively, which were due but not collected on 1st April, 1922, and which remained uncollected on 1st April, 1923?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I regret that no information on this subject is available without detailed inquiry throughout the Kingdom, which I could not authorise on account of the expenditure of time and labour which would be involved.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large number of small Income Tax payers are being summoned week after week, and will the same thing apply to the Super-tax people?
    Mr. BALDWIN: There is no differentiation.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the total amounts of Super-tax and Income Tax, respectively, which were due but remained unpaid on 1st April, 1923; and what amounts of these he anticipates collecting during this financial year?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The approximate amounts of Income Tax and Super-tax estimated to be due to be paid but not paid by the 31st March, 1923, were as follow:

    £

    Income Tax, excluding the instalment due on the 1st July, 1923

    68,000,000

    Super-tax

    23,000,000

    These amounts, it is anticipated, will be collected almost entirely within the present financial year.
    Sir EDGAR CHATFEILD-CLARKEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that in cases where an individual has made a return of Income Tax for many years and received the abatements due to him, his income being under £2,000, and who has filled up and returned the form to the Super-tax Commissioners for years although not liable for duty, and who is not in any business and whose income is stationary, should such an individual on any occasion fail to complete the annual return, the Income Tax authorities are in the habit of issuing him a peremptory demand that unless it be received within seven days penalties will be inflicted; and whether he will give instructions that such a practice shall not continue in the future?
    Mr. BALDWIN: When a taxpayer has made a return of his total income for Super-tax purposes, it is sufficient if he merely states the fact on the Income Tax form on which he claims his Income Tax allowances and deductions; he will not then be required to make a further return in order to obtain the Income Tax allowances to which he may be entitled. This arrangement normally obviates any undue inconvenience. If the hon. Member would care to give me particulars of the case he has in mind, I will gladly have the matter investigated.

    TAXATION (ARREARS).
    Mr. HANNONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can have a statement prepared showing the arrears in Income Tax, Super-tax, Corporation Profits Tax, and Excess Profits Tax as at the 31st March, 1922, and the 31st March, 1923?
    Mr. BALDWIN: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures referred to:
    The approximate amounts of Income Tax and Super-tax estimated to be due to be paid, but not paid by the 31st March, 1922, and 31st March, 1923, respectively, were as follows:

    Income Tax, excluding the instalment due on 1st July:

    £

    31st March, 1922

    99,000,000

    31st March, 1923

    68,000,000

    Super-tax:

    £

    31st March, 1922

    23,500,000

    31st March, 1923

    23,000,000

    The difference of £3,000,000 in these figures, compared with the figures given in my speech in the House on the 18th April, arises on Super-tax, and represents arrears of 1922–23 liabilities which were not assessed at 31st March last, but will be assessed in the early months of the current financial year.
    Analogous figures are not available for the other duties mentioned, but the approximate amounts in assessment, but unpaid (less sums shown due to be remitted), were as shown below. It will be understood that these arrears do not represent finally ascertained liabilities. In the case of Excess Profits Duty especially, large sums are subject to adjustment on appeal or otherwise, and the duty to be ultimately received by the Exchequer will fall far short of the amount stated.

    Excess Profits Duty:

    £

    31st March, 1922

    294,000,000

    31st March, 1923

    213,000,000

    CORPORATION PROFITS TAX.
    Major KELLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the actual cost of the staff and the cost of collecting the Corporation Profits Tax; and what will be the estimated sum collected?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I regret that it is not possible to isolate the cost of collecting the Corporation Profits Tax from that of collecting the other duties of the Inland Revenue Department. The estimated yield of the duty for 1923–24 is £20,000,000.
    Mr. DIXONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the reduced Corporation Profits Tax of 6d. in the £ will apply to profits earned during the whole accounting period of 12 months ending after the 30th June, 1923, or only to profits earned after that date?
    Mr. BALDWIN: It is proposed that the reduction shall take effect only in respect of profits arising after the 30th June next.

    FARMERS (INCOME TAX).
    Mr. PETOasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the number of farmers in England and Wales who have claimed reductions in or recovered return of Income Tax on account of losses shown by farming operations in, the year 1921–22?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I regret that the information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available.

  POST OFFICE.

    IMPERIAL WIRELESS STATIONS.
    Mr. HURDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why, seeing that the Government wireless telegraph stations at Leafield, Cairo, and Northolt are costing £93,750 a year, whilst the revenue for these services is at the rate of only £46,780 a year, of which a considerable portion is not commercial revenue, but a paper credit representing the charge for sending Government messages, it is now proposed to spend a further large sum of public money on an additional high-power wireless station?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on the 5th March, in which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stated fully both the Government's policy in regard to Imperial

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    wireless communications and also the considerations which led to the adoption of that policy.
    Sir DOUGLAS NEWTONasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Post Office wireless station at Cairo is costing £49,000 a year, whilst the revenue is only estimated at £6,200; whether, in view of this loss, it is intended to continue this station; and, if so, for what purpose?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): The actual expenses of the Cairo station, including salaries and allowances of the operating and engineering staffs, maintenance, and administrative and overhead charges are estimated at about £36,000 per annum. The balance of £13,000 represents the estimated provision to be made for interest and amortisation of capital. As stated in a reply to a question by the hon. Member for Wallasey on the 9th instant, the revenue of the Cairo station, which was opened less than a year ago, is increasing, the revenue for the third quarter (the last complete quarter) being 65 per cent. higher than the first and 15 per cent. higher than the second. The hon. Member would not be justified in drawing any inference as regards the future from the revenue received during the first year after the station commenced working.
    Sir D. NEWTON: What sum does that represent of the 65 per cent.?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is included in the £6,200.

    WIRELESS BROADCASTING.
    Captain BENNasked the Postmaster-General whether it is proposed to issue a third type of licence for users of wireless sets; and whether it is proposed to continue the prohibition of the import of wireless apparatus?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As explained in the statement I made on the 20th instant, I propose to refer the whole question to a Committee. The importation of wireless apparatus is not at present prohibited; but the provision that apparatus used under the broadcast receiving licence must be marked with the British Broadcasting Company's trade mark prevents the use of imported
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    apparatus for ordinary broadcast reception as distinct from experimental purposes. There is no similar provision in respect of apparatus used under the experimental licences.
    Captain BERKELEYasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the provisions of Standing Order 72 of this House, he will notify the British Broadcasting Company that their licence is not binding until approved by Resolution of this House, and will take steps to bring the licence before the House without delay with a view to a Resolution being taken upon it?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The licence granted to the British Broadcasting Company is not a contract for the purpose of telegraphic communication beyond sea, and does not, in my view, therefore fall within the scope of the Standing Order referred to by the hon. Member.
    Captain BERKELEY: In view of the great public importance of the issues involved by this licence, will not the hon. Gentleman consider referring it for the opinion of the House to the House of Commons before it is dealt with by the Committee which he has promised to set up to consider the whole question?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think that it would be inadvisable to deal with this matter before the Committee which is being set up to-day has considered the points raised by the hon. Gentleman.
    Captain BERKELEY: In view of the answer, I beg to give notice, Sir, that to-morrow, after Questions, I shall ask your ruling as to whether the contract with the British Broadcasting Company comes within Standing Order 72, which requires certain contracts for the purpose of telegraphic communication to be approved by Resolution of this House before they are binding.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. Member will in the meantime supply me with details in reference to his contention.
    Mr. J. JONES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor has been elected a director of the Marconi Company, which is one of the principal companies connected with the British Broadcasting Company, and is that going to be allowed to continue?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question.
    Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALDasked the Postmaster-General whether he can now state to the House the terms of reference which he proposes for the Committee on broadcasting licences; and further can he give the names of the Committee?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The terms of reference which I propose are as follow:
    To consider:

    (a) Broadcasting in all its aspects.

    (b) The contracts and licences which have been or may be granted.

    (c) The action which should be taken upon the determination of the existing licence of the Broadcasting Company.

    (d) Uses to which broadcasting may be put.

    (e) The restrictions which may need to be placed upon its user or development.

    The members of the Committee which I have nominated are

    Major-General Sir Frederick Sykes, M.P. (Chairman).

    Major The Hon. J. J. Astor, M.P.

    Mr. F. J. Brown, C.B., C.B.E., Assistant Secretary, General Post Office.

    Sir Henry Bunbury, K.C.B., Comptroller and Accountant - General, General Post Office.

    Viscount Burnham, C.H., Chairman, Newspaper Proprietors' Association.

    W. H. Eccles, Esq., F.R.S., President, Radio Society of Great Britain.

    The Right Hon. Sir Henry Norman, Bt., M.P.

    J. C. W. Reith, Esq., General Manager, British Broadcasting Company.

    Field-Marshal Sir William Robertson, Bt., G.C.B., G.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., D.S.O.

    Charles Trevelyan, Esq., M.P.

    Mr. PRINGLE: Has the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Sir H. Norman) been appointed in view of the evidence which he gave before a Select Committee of this House in regard to wireless?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I asked the right hon. Member to serve on this Com-
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    mittee because of his very great knowledge of the whole of this wireless question.
    Sir D. NEWTON: Who will represent the 250,000 listeners-in?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: There are four Members of this House, all of whom, I take it, appear in a representative capacity for large constituencies. Field-Marshal Sir William Robertson is not connected with any organisation interested in broadcasting. In fact everybody on the Committee is more or less a representative of the listeners-in.
    Mr. PRINGLE: In view of the fact that legal questions arise in relation to the determination of the contract, will the right hon. Gentleman put on the Committee somebody who is competent to deal with the legal issues? [HON. MEMBERS: "Pringle."]
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I considered that matter very carefully and came to the conclusion that, if a legal Member were put on the Committee, he would probably put a one-sided legal view of the matter. The Committee will be at full liberty to obtain the legal advice of the Law Officers of the Crown, and the Solicitor to the Post Office.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Are we to understand that it is the considered view of the Postmaster-General, as a solicitor, that a lay tribunal is the best body to pronounce an opinion on a legal question?
    Mr. J. JONES: May I ask why the great majority of listeners-in, who are working people, have not proper representation upon this Committee? We are not lawyers, but learners
    Mr. POTTS: Before the question is answered—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot now debate the matter.

    LETTER DELIVERY, REDRUTH AND CAMBORNE.
    Captain MOREINGasked the Post master-General whether he is aware that great delay often takes place in the delivery of letters posted from Redruth and Camborne; and if he will take steps to obviate these delays in future?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If the hon Member will send the covers of any letters which appear to have been delayed, I will have inquiry made

    WIRELESS SERVICES (EXPENDITURE).
    Sir D. NEWTON: asked the Postmaster-General the estimated total expenditure for the Post Office wireless services for the year 1923–24, including the salaries, wages, and allowances of the engineering staff, a due proportion of the headquarters' administrative expenses, the cost of the headquarters' wireless engineering staff, and all other proper charges; and what was the commercial revenue from these services during the year ended 31st March, 1923?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I regret that I am not at present in a position to furnish the hon. Member with the particulars he mentions, as no reliable figures are yet available.

    POST CARDS.
    Captain BERKELEYasked the Postmaster-General Whether he will consider amending the existing Regulations governing communications on halfpenny postcards, and will he give increased facilities?
    Mr. FOOTasked the Postmaster-General if he will consent to the removal of the phrase restriction in the five words permitted on picture postcards at the halfpenny rate of postage?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply which I gave to a similar question put by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire on the 19th instant.

    TELEPHONE SERVICE.
    Major WARINGasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the nearest telephone call office to Hutton, Berwickshire, is three miles distant; that the district contains important flour mills; and can he see his way to establish a call office at Hutton, and so assist rural industry?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The nearest telephone call office to Hutton is situated at Paxton, two miles distant. The conversion of this call office into an exchange is under consideration, and the question of providing a call office at Hutton will be dealt with at the same time.
    Mr. FOOTasked the Postmaster-General if he can state the approximate number of railway stations and rural post offices throughout the country where there are at present no telephone boxes or call offices?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The number of rural post offices without call office facilities is approximately 8,500, and the number of railway stations in rural districts without exchange telephone facilities is about 2,600.
    Mr. FOOTasked the Postmaster-General the number of rural telephone call offices which have been provided in the County of Cornwall during the past 12 months?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Five new rural telephone call offices have been provided in the County of Cornwall during the past 12 mouths.

    TELEGRAPHIC FACILITIES (RAILWAY STATIONS).
    Sir THOMAS HENDERSONasked the Postmaster-General whether he will make arrangements with the railway companies in rural districts to provide public telegraphic facilities at railway stations, especially where the nearest postal telegraph office is not within three miles of a village or railway station?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Telegraph business is already performed by the railway companies on behalf of the Post Office at a large number of rural railway stations, but the facilities are generally confined to the acceptance of telegrams and to delivery on the station premises—the companies as a rule being unable to provide a delivery service to the general public. I have no power to compel railway companies to undertake Post Office telegraph business, but where such facilities are desirable in the public interest efforts are made to induce them to do so. I shall be glad to make inquiries as regards any locality where facilities are not at present afforded if the hon. Member will be good enough to give me particulars.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that telephonic facilities are given at each station?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer is exactly the same. I have no power to compel the railway companies. My pre-

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    decessor, the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Neville Chamberlain), communicated with the railway companies about six weeks ago, asking them to consider the whole question, and negotiations are now proceeding.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Does it mean that where a telegram is sent from a railway station to another station, the telegram has to wait there until notification can be sent to the people concerned to fetch it?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is so. I cannot compel the railway companies to deliver telegrams.
    Mr. J. JONES: As railway companies are chartered companies, guaranteed certain powers by Acts of Parliament, have not the Government some power to compel them to facilitate trading and make it possible for people to do their business?

    TELEPHONE EXCHANGE (SHEFFIELD).
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Postmaster-General what is the present position regarding the new telephone exchange at Sheffield; and whether any provision for expenditure during the year 1923–24 appears in the Estimates?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The foundations have been completed and the erection of the steel framework is proceeding. Tenders have been invited for the building contract proper. The necessary financial provision for the erection of the exchange is made out of the Telephone Loan, and does not therefore appear in the Estimates.

    WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY (PRIVATE ENTERPRISE).
    Mr. HURDasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the Prime Minister's statement that the Government had decided to grant licences to private enterprise for wireless telegraph services between this country and the Dominions, Colonies, and foreign countries, he will say how many such licences have now been issued; and for what services?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to the question which was asked by the hon. Member for Acton on the 12th instant. Negotiations on the subject are still in progress.
    Mr. HURD: Did the answer referred to give the number of licences issued and state for what services?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My hon. Friend is just as well able as I to know what is in the answer.
    Mr. HURD: I am not.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the answer.

    PARCELS FROM FRANCE.
    Sir F. SANDERSONasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a number of cases have occurred where letters and parcels received from France although stamped with the correct amount demanded in France, are being charged with further cost of postage and excess charges upon delivery to the addressee in this country, in one case a parcel weighing, approximately, 15 ounces and bearing stamps to the value of 150 centimes being charged with an excess of 4s. 10d. upon delivery in England; and whether he will revise the postal arrangements between England and France in such a way as to prevent the continuance of this inconvenience to English correspondents?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Under the regulations of the International Postal Union the transmission of articles at reduced rates of postage is subject to specified conditions—as, for example, that an article sent by sample post must be a bonâ fide sample not of saleable value. When these conditions are not complied with the packet becomes liable to surcharge on delivery. I am afraid that I cannot accept responsibility where it is said that wrong information has been given by a foreign post office; but in regard to certain cases of this kind representations have already been made to the French Post Office.

    LEEDS POST OFFICE.
    Mr. JOHN MURRAYasked the Postmaster-General if he will take steps to abate the emission of smoke from the General Post Office at Leeds?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No complaints have been received on this subject since 1921, when certain remedial measures were adopted as a result of

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    representations by the local medical officer of health. The question of closing down the present generating plant has been under consideration for some time, but it has not hitherto been possible to proceed, on account of the considerable expenditure entailed. The matter will be kept under review.

    WOMEN SUPERVISORS.
    Mr. MIDDLETONasked the Postmaster-General (1) the rank and length of Post Office service of the woman supervising officer in charge of each of the London telephone exchanges, the present salary and bonus of each, the number of staff under her control, and the number of subscribers' and other lines;
    (2) the rank and length of Post Office service of the woman supervising officer in charge of each provincial telephone exchange; the present salary and bonus of each; the number of staff under her control; and the number of sub—scribers and other lines?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The information asked for is not readily available, and considerable time, labour and expense would be involved in collecting it.

    SUB-POST OFFICES.
    Sir W. de FREECEasked the Postmaster-General whether he will furnish the actual number of scale-payment sub-post offices closed in the years 1921, 1922, and in 1923 up to 31st March, and not replaced by the establishment of other offices?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The figures are not immediately available. I will let the hon. Member have them as soon as possible.

    SERVICE PENSIONS (FUNDING).
    Major BIRCHALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the advisability of funding service pensions and, out of the money so saved, making provision for the removal of the income limit on Old Age Pensions?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The answer is in the negative. It would obviously be improper to meet a permanent increase in Old Age Pensions by a temporary expedient of the kind suggested.
    Mr. J. JONES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that various local organisation are supplying their members with houses, and is he prepared to admit that these houses shall not be reckoned against the old age pensioners' allowances?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put that question down on the Paper.

    WIDOW'S PENSION (HELEN WILLIAMS).
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to the case of Helen Williams, 12, Oak Street, Bolton, widow of the late Private Ernest Williams, No. 113,568, Labour Corps, Lancashire Fusiliers, who enlisted at Bolton, 3rd December, 1915, discharged 10th October, 1918, total service 2 years 214 days plus 68 days Army Reserve, married 26th July, 1917, and whose death took place on 30th March, 1922; is he aware that the widow has been informed that, as her marriage to her late husband took place subsequent to his first removal from duty on account of the disease from which he died, she is not eligible for any grant or pension; and whether it is the policy of the Ministry not to grant pensions to, widows who were married whilst their husbands were actually serving in His Majesty's Forces, on account of the fact that the husband had contracted some disease or disability prior to their marriage?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Captain Craig): My right hon. Friend is considering this case, and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.

TRUSTS BILL.
Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to deal with rings and trusts, with special reference to the building industry."
As Members of the House are anxious to hear the statement of the Minister of Health on the new Housing Bill, I shall refer as briefly as possible to the Motion. To-day the Government is to announce that large public subsidies are to be given

287
for the building of houses, and it is not to be disputed that an assured demand for this class of material must tend to stiffen prices and to assist combinations, rings and trusts and other bodies which supply those materials. Therefore, it appears to me to be a very opportune moment to suggest machinery of the kind which is outlined in the Bill which I ask leave to introduce. Indeed, the Minister may find that it is necessary to adopt some such machinery. The proposal is divided into two parts. The first part lays upon the Board of Trade the duty of making inquiries into the existence, the influence and the growth of rings and trusts, and of making reports to the House on the subject. Where it appears to the Board of Trade, either from their own inquiries or from complaints made to them, that a prima facie case exists, they are empowered to refer such case to a special tribunal, which the President of the Board of Trade is to set up, having as its Chairman a person of legal qualification, and having among its members representatives of trade and industry, trade unions and co-operative organisations. Such a tribunal must report publicly and immediately to the President of the Board of Trade, and, upon such report being made, it shall be the duty of the President of the Board of Trade to suggest to this House legislation of a corrective or of a penal kind.
The second part of the proposal says that where the tribunal so recommend, it shall be the duty of the Overseas Trade Department to obtain and supply all available information as to alternative sources from abroad of the material which is being made the subject of a ring or trust or combination. The third part of the proposal says that on the recommendation of this tribunal the President of the Board of Trade may move a Resolution suspending for a specified period the duration of any embargo or restriction or control, or tariff or duty, which appears to hamper free access to alternative supplies of material, and if such a Resolution is passed by both Houses, it shall have the force of law for the specified period. The proposal, in brief, is to mobilise against the ring and trust two formidable antagonists—first, by inquiry and report, to focus public attention on the matter, and, secondly, by freeing the access to alternative
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sources of supply and bringing in the most formidable antagonist of trusts, namely, competition. It is in the belief that if the Government pursue, as I hope they intend to pursue, a vigorous programme of building houses they may need the assistance of these two allies, that I move the Motion.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Captain Wedgwood Benn, Mrs. Wintringham, Mr. Phillipps, Mr. Harcourt Johnstone, Mr. Harris, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson.

TRUSTS BILL,
"to deal with rings and trusts, with special reference to the building industry," presented accordingly, and read the First time: to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 101.]

SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 59.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 59.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 100.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to.
Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, with an Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  HOUSING, ETC. (No. 2), BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Of all the problems which the War has left behind it, there is none that is more obstinate or more persistent than that which concerns the housing of the people. As we look around us we see progress going on in many directions, and, although we may still be far from our goal, which is a return to normal conditions, yet at any rate it is perceptible that we are moving. But in housing, after four years, and in spite of a prodigious effort, the results of which were altogether disproportionate to the cost, we hardly seem to be any better off than we were. The census of 1921 shows that in the last ten years the average increase in the population of the country was a little over 181,000, and if you take the average family in the country as consisting of four and a half persons, which is rather more than the actual figure, it will be seen that of the 215,000 houses, which have been provided with State assistance, no fewer than 161,000 were required to meet the normal and ordinary increase in the population, leaving, therefore, only 54,000 as a contribution towards the reduction of the shortage. So we find ourselves to-day faced with the condition that great masses of our people are unable to find separate dwellings for themselves, and they have to be herded together without privacy, without comfort, without almost the ordinary decencies of life.
  4.0 P.M.
  The effects of this over-crowding are far-reaching. It constitutes a perpetual danger to the physical and moral health of the community. It is, I am sure, responsible for much unrest and social discontent, although I am bound to say that anyone who is familiar with the conditions in the poorer parts of our great cities must, above all, be dominated by a feeling of admiration for the patience and the good humour with which for the most part these evils are borne. But that is only a further claim upon our consideration,
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  and indeed every consideration of humanity, of patriotism, and even of prudent care for the future must impel us to the conclusion that there is no question more urgent, and none that cries more loudly for immediate attention than this question of housing, which, so long as it continues, must remain, of course, a great anxiety to those who are responsible for the Government of the country, to whatever party they belong. It would be easy to give the House poignant illustrations from my own experience of the tragedies to which this state of things has led, and, if I refrain from doing so, it is because I feel sure that the House is convinced already, that it does not require further evidence, and that it would wish me to address myself to the much harder task of trying to find some remedy. After all, eloquent expressions of sympathy, of pity, and even of indignation will not provide houses. It is not enough to pour out the most lavish expenditure of the nation's money, as we have already learned to our cost. We have got to treat our problem with sense as well as with sensibility. We have got to realise that our resources, great as they are, cannot be mobilised in the twinkling of an eye, and that the only result of calling for a higher rate of speed in building than that which the trade is able to undertake would be to cause a rise of prices which would be disastrous to the whole scheme and which would speedily bring it to a standstill.
  To my mind, the important thing is that we should begin our work upon lines which are capable of growth and development, and that as far as possible we should try to avoid artificial devices which cannot go on indefinitely and which, when sooner or later they come to an end, will leave nothing behind them. Therefore, I am going to ask the House to regard this Housing Bill from that point of view, not as a solution of the housing problem, but as the beginning of a solution; not as the engine itself, but as the starting apparatus which will put the engine in motion. This is not entirely a war problem. To find the origin of the shortage, we have to go back further than 1914. We must go back to an historic year, the year 1909. If you take the houses under the annual value of £20, you will find that the net annual increase in the five years previous to 1909 was 80,000. In the five years after 1909, it fell to 46,000.
  Mr. J. DAVISON: Due to the policy of the Conservatives.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not asking what it is due to; I am merely stating what are the facts. In those five years, which brought us up to the period of the War, we had a loss, if you may call it so, or at any rate a reduction in the rate of output of houses amounting to no less than 170,000. After that came the War years, during which no houses were built at all, and when we had to live, so to speak, upon our own fat, because, as was pointed out last year by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), in 1914 there were something like 430,000 houses in the country which stood void and empty. If it had not been for that reserve, which enabled us to survive the want of building of new houses during the War years, there is no doubt that our position would have been very much more serious than it actually was. I have already explained how, since the War, in spite of all our efforts, we have made but a trifling contribution to the accumulated arrears. Taking those facts into account, I think the House will see that it would be altogether unreasonable to suppose that these arrears which have been accumulating over a period of 13 years could possibly be wiped out in the short period which is covered by this Bill. Indeed, neither this Bill nor any Bill which operates only for a short period could possibly in itself provide a solution of the housing problem
  Let me pursue my historical investigations a little further. Hon. Members will be aware that the private builder who was responsible for the large number of houses that were being produced prior to 1909 did not build to hold, but built to sell, and he had a ready market, because there had gradually grown up an elaborate set of financial machinery, which, through the medium of solicitors, agents, surveyors and the like, provided the financial resources which were necessary for the builder, mainly from the savings of small tradesmen, clerks, artisans, and people of that sort of station. That machinery was built up upon confidence, upon confidence in the security of property as an investment. It ought to be remembered that in those days there were no War Savings Certificates and that this particular form of investment was almost the only one which
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  was familiar to the small capitalists of whom I am speaking. That confidence was first shaken and then shattered, not so much perhaps by the famous Budget itself, as by the devastating eloquence with which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) illustrated and enlivened his campaign in support of his Measure. Therefore, what we have got to do to-day, if we are to get back to similar conditions, is not merely to reinstate the small builder who did most of the work, but also to restore, or, if we cannot restore, to replace, the financial machinery by which alone he is able to carry out his operations.
  What is the situation to-day? Private enterprise is beginning to function once more. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] I am going to tell you where. I have been rather surprised to find how many houses have been built recently without any assistance from the State or from local authorities at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Working class houses?"] Perhaps hon. Members will be good enough to let me develop my argument. During the last six months upwards of 12,000 of such houses have been completed and a further 16,000 are in course of erection. It is perfectly true that most of these houses are of a superior class suitable for the middle-class, but there are two features about this operation which are worthy of notice, because they confirm and bear out what I have just been saying. The first is that these houses are all for sale, and for the most part they are being sold to the people who desire to occupy them. The second feature is that as cost has come down and as trade has improved, so there has been a gradual extension of the operations of the private builder from the better class to the less good class of house. In fact, gradually the enterprise of the private builder is approaching nearer and nearer to the type of house which is desired to-day by the working class. That provides me with a guide, because, if you can at the same time stimulate private enterprise and provide fresh facilities for financing his operations, you will be approaching nearer to the time when the private builder can cover the whole field of housing, and the more work that he undertakes the greater will be the attraction to labour to enter the building trade, and the greater there-

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  fore will be the capacity of that trade to undertake fresh enterprise. Having said so much, I am bound to recognise that this process which I have described, whereby private enterprise is gradually extending its operations from the more expensive to the less expensive house, is bound to be a very slow and gradual one, and that there still remains a considerable margin which for some years to come it will be impossible for private enterprise to touch.
  Therefore, I had to consider a choice between two alternatives. One was to take no notice of these houses or the want of these houses and to do nothing to provide them at all, and the other was to initiate a new scheme of State subsidies to tide over the interval until these houses could be built without assistance. In face of the circumstances of to-day, I could not hesitate between those two alternatives. No Government could allow the total cessation of activity in the very class of houses which we want the most, and, therefore, the only question left for me to decide was, what was the smallest subsidy which we must give, in order to obtain the hearty co-operation of the local authorities, upon which we have to rely to carry out our programme. I saw the representatives of the local authorities, and I made arrangements with them. I have been criticised because it is said I gave too much. I think that criticism has been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea. I do not perceive in the Amendment which he has on the Paper that he is pursuing that criticism to-day. Possibly, he found it was one which is not popular in South Wales, but I think the fact that I have been criticised both for giving too much and for giving too little is, perhaps, the best argument I can find for supposing that I have given about the right sum. At any rate, I gave the local authorities what they asked—
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Were the Scottish authorities consulted?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN:—and I received in return their assurance that they were completely satisfied, and that it was, to use their own expression, "up to them" to see that now they carried on their building programmes with all possible haste.
  Mr. HARRIS: What about London?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If I may sum up this preliminary statement, which was really necessary in order that I might indicate to the House what were the ideas underlying this Bill, I would repeat that it is not to be regarded as an instrument for making up all the arrears of housing in a period of little more than two years. What I hope it may do is to lay the foundations, and those foundations are the two lines of policy which I have indicated, namely, the encouragement of private enterprise, and the stimulation of the desire which I believe exists among large sections of the population, to be able to own their own houses, by giving them facilities for obtaining capital, and with that policy is coupled a temporary provision, lasting only for a short time, in order that we may tide over an interval during which certain particular classes of houses could not be provided by private enterprise alone, and that object we hope to achieve by means of the subsidy.
  Now I come to the detailed examination of the Bill, and I propose this afternoon to confine myself, for the most part, to those Clauses which are concerned with the main lines of policy and with the special temporary provision about which I have been speaking. Clause 1 deals with the purpose of the subsidy. It will be observed that it is to be paid only to local authorities, and not to individuals, but that it may be used for two purposes, first for giving assistance to private enterprise, and second for providing houses by the authority itself. It is provided that before the second is adopted, the authority will have to satisfy the Minister that the needs of a particular area can best be met in that way. In passing, I would like to say that in line 6, on page 2, paragraph (b), the word "such" has been accidentally omitted from the final draft before the House. The words should be "provision of such houses," and that word is necessary in order to ensure that the conditions as to size and type and date of completion, apply to houses provided by local authorities as well as those provided by private enterprise.
  I come next to Sub-section (2) which deals with the limitation of size, and if I am to judge from my correspondence and from what I see in the Press, and from the manifestos which have darkened the air for the last two or three days,

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  this is a provision which excites the greatest interest and the most criticism of any in the Bill. I have to admit that I, myself, am partly responsible for some of the misunderstanding which has undoubtedly arisen as to the purpose and intention of this Sub-section. In answering questions I have, myself, used the terms "parlour house" and "non-parlour house" as compendious terms, which expressed as I thought, fairly well, the class of house I had in my mind, but because I have spoken of subsidised houses as "non-parlour houses," it appears to have been thought that I had some prejudice against a parlour as such, that I desired to give the children no room for study, and sweethearts no room for courting, and generally to lower the standard of the working-class population. I very much doubt whether the activities of the sweethearts would be hindered in any way even if no parlour were provided.
  All this shows how dangerous it is to answer questions about a Bill before the Second Reading, and it will be a lesson to me to try to exercise a little more reserve in future when I come to other Bills which may possibly be the subject of controversy. The House will have already seen that the word "parlour" does not appear in the Bill at all, and if it is desired by local authorities to meet the wishes of those who desire parlours there is nothing in the Bill to prevent them doing so—[HON. MEMBERS: "Space!"]—providing they keep within the limitations as to size.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: You are simply taunting us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am not going to sit and listen to this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I will talk if I like; I do not care.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member will please understand that a Minister introducing a Bill is entitled to a hearing. I shall not give another warning to any hon. Member who attempts to prevent the Minister from being heard.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I do not care.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think there is any occasion for any heat to be generated on this matter at all.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: There is no occasion for jibes. It is our class that is being dealt with, and am I not entitled to speak?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I have informed the hon. Member that he must be prepared to listen.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am endeavouring to explain to the House exactly what are the proposals in the Bill, and what is permitted under them, and I shall go on afterwards to give the House my reasons for having drafted the Bill as it is. If hon. Members do not agree with me, and no doubt they will not, they will have ample opportunity afterwards of expressing their views, and explaining why they dissent. I hope in the meantime they will preserve that serenity of demeanour which is necessary if they are to understand what I want to put before them. I gather from the interruptions just now, that hon. Members consider that the space allowed is insufficient to permit of the inclusion of a parlour in the house which is contemplated. That is not so, because houses are being built to-day which come within these limits, and which do provide parlours, and I would like to give the House the dimensions of the rooms in such a house, because I think if hon. Members will take note of them, and measure them by some of the rooms in which people are now living, they will see that they do not compare unfavourably with the standards which obtain to-day, but, on the contrary, are something very much better. This is what can be put into the house. On the ground floor a scullery, 7 feet 6 inches by 5 feet 10 inches; living room, 12 feet by 13 feet 4½ inches; parlour, 10 feet 6 inches by 9 feet 3 inches—big enough to court in.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Have I got to listen to this? What does he mean by that? [HON. MEMBERS "Order!"] What kind of language is that to use?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: On the first floor there is a bathroom and lavatory, 6 feet by 5 feet 10 inches; first bedroom, 11 feet 4½ inches by 13 feet 6½ inches; second bedroom, 12 feet 2½ inches by 9 feet 3½ inches; third bedroom, 10 feet 6 inches by 6 feet 10 inches. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about height?"] The height is not given, but these figures, at any rate, show that it is possible to build a house, within these dimensions, with a parlour included. No doubt hon. Members opposite will say that these rooms are

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  very small, and that they want a house with larger rooms. It is suggested that the space should be increased from 850 feet to 900 feet or 950, or even more. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I quite agree it is a fair subject for difference of opinion. Really, it all depends on what is your object and what is the class of person for whom you are proposing to find houses. When I first considered this question, I was rather inclined, myself, to make the limits wider than they are, but, on the whole, I came to the conclusion that the balance of argument was in favour of something like the dimensions which I have put in the Bill, and I will tell the House why. There were two reasons which weighed with me particularly. The first was this. It is quite certain that nobody would build a class of house without assistance if State assistance could be obtained for that class of house, and therefore, if you wish to get back, as I frankly say I do wish to get back, to the time when private enterprise can undertake the building of all classes of houses, you must be careful not to give a subsidy to any class of house which either can be to-day or may be within the period covered by the Bill provided by private enterprise unaided.
  That is one reason, but there is another, which is even more important. This part of the Bill is a temporary provision. It lasts only until 1st October, 1925, and I think that in these days, when conditions are changing so rapidly, it would be extremely unwise to introduce any provision for State assistance which would be prolonged over a considerable period. The provisions in this Bill will come to an end in 1925. When that time comes, or even before, it will be necessary to review the situation again and to see whether anything further is necessary in the light of the circumstances which then obtain, but in the meantime we have got to consider this limited period. Whatever subsidy we gave, we could not get more than a certain limited number of houses built in this period. We are limited by the capacity of the trade, and therefore this is the consideration which you must put before your mind—Who are to come first? Who are to be provided with houses first, since all cannot be provided with houses in the time which we are considering? Well, I must say that it
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  seemed to me that those have the greatest claim upon our consideration who are living to-day under the worst circumstances. If you have two classes of houses, different classes, each available for a subsidy, it is quite certain that the tendency will be to build that class of house which gives the best return, or which will result in the smallest loss, and, therefore, I think it is clear that, if these limits be extended, the tendency will be to build the houses near the higher limit, which will command rents of, perhaps, 8s. 6d. a week or more, exclusive of rates.
  The census shows that in London, if I take London as an example, 53½ per cent. of the families are living in from one to three rooms, and I do ask the House to give special thought to these unfortunate people, whose condition, it seems to me, cries aloud for immediate attention. It may be said by hon. Members opposite that these people are living in that narrow, cramped accommodation only because they cannot get more, but I have got from the London County Council some figures which, I confess, surprised me and which, I think will still more surprise hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. J. JONES: They do not surprise me.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I know my hon. Friend the Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) is omniscient, but these are figures relating to the applications for the new houses built by the London County Council. They had a very large number. In fact, they had to close their lists, the applications were so numerous, but this is the remarkable fact, that out of those applications no less than 80 per cent. were for houses with two or three rooms. Why?
  Mr. JONES: Because they could not afford to pay the rent for bigger houses.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It was because they could not afford to pay more. That is exactly why I am pleading for these people, because I desire that they should be able to have a separate dwelling, of which they can afford to pay the rent. Of those applications, 15½ per cent. applied for four-roomed houses, and only 4½ per cent. of the applications were for houses with five and six rooms. These people cannot afford high rents, but they

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  can afford a rent which will give them a house, not as large as they or we would like them to have, but which, at any rate, would be a paradise compared with what they are living in now. I ask the House to consider this, and not to be led away by purely sentimental considerations, because these unfortunate people are depending very much for their housing accommodation upon the final decision taken in this matter, and I would warn hon. Members that if, as a result of increasing the space permitted, the class of houses to be built should be all of the higher type, instead of the type that I have thought of in drafting this part of the Bill, one of two things must happen. Either those houses will be inhabited by persons in a better condition to afford the rents, earning higher wages, who want houses, no doubt, but who are not living under such bad conditions as those of whom I have spoken, or else, if these people are put in, they will be forced to take in lodgers, and to those lodgers they would let the bedroom or parlour. They would have less accommodation than we have desired to give them, they would have lost their privacy, and they would be on the road to create again the very conditions that we want to overcome.
  I come now to Sub-section (3), which is the only provision in this Bill which deals with the question of slum areas. I do not want the House to think that this is the last word of the Government upon this subject. I do not think anyone in this House can have given more attention than I have to the difficulties in connection with slum areas, and I hope at some future date, when I have had more time to work out my ideas, I may be able to bring in some further legislation. In the meantime, we have a Clause here which will, I think, enable us to get some considerable amount of work done during the next few years, and it may be remembered in that connection that there is a very close tie between the amount of work we can do in slum clearance and the available provision of new houses. You cannot turn people out into the street to pull down the old houses. You must see that there is somewhere to receive them before you can really undertake any great or drastic scheme of slum clearance. But we substitute here, in this Clause, for the old provision whereby the liability of the local authority was limited to a penny rate, a provision under which the State under-
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  takes only half of the estimated annual loss. We have already before us extensive proposals under this arrangement from the London County Council, from Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bradford, and several other towns.
  Sub-section (4) is designed to protect certain local authorities which have gone ahead with building schemes without waiting for the Bill to become law. Some time ago they came to my predecessor and they said that they desired to begin their schemes at once, but that they were not prepared to do so if thereby they were going to lose any advantages which might be given to them if they waited for the Bill, and my predecessor, being desirous that all the available time should be utilised, gave them that pledge. That pledge is, therefore, inserted in the Bill, and will be carried out. That is why those words occur at the end of the Subsection—
  "notwithstanding that the houses do not comply in every respect with the conditions imposed by or under this Section."
  Obviously, at that time, it was not possible to tell the local authorities what precisely would be the conditions which would have to be inserted in the Bill.
  Now I come to Clause 2, which deals with the various methods in which local authorities may be of assistance to private enterprise, and I would remark here that we contemplate that the annual loss on houses built under this Bill will be, according to the locality, up to double the equivalent of the £6 subsidy which the State is to provide, and the extra loss, therefore, will have to come as a contribution from the local authority out of the rates, but it will be observed that here we have exactly reversed the scheme which was adopted under what is known as the Addison plan. Under the Addison plan, the liability of the local authority was limited, but the liability of the State was unlimited. Under this plan it is the other way round, and the liability of the State cannot exceed the £6 per house per annum for 20 years. The local authority has got to find whatever else may be necessary to make up the loss, and I think it will be agreed that that is a far better plan than the old one, because the local authority will now have a direct incentive to economy. I have enough experience of local authorities to know that the best of them are not as careful, when they are

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  dealing with money which is provided for them by the State, as when they are dealing with money which they themselves have to raise, and since, under this plan, any extravagance, any wastefulness, will mean simply an increased charge on the local authorities, they will have every reason to watch most carefully that their money is spent well and economically. I do not wish to claim any credit for myself for the adoption of this plan, which did not originate with me. It originated, I think, with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea as Minister of Health. It was adopted afterwards by local authorities at what was called the Manchester Conference. It was revived again by my predecessor, Sir Arthur Boscawen, and it has received the finishing touches from me. To complete the circle of benevolent godfathers, it only now wants the blessing of Dr. Addison.
  Sub-section (3) of Clause 2 specifies three different ways in which assistance may be given to private enterprise by local authorities. The first of these is what is called the lump sum method. It is one which is, I think, particularly favoured by builders, because it is administratively simple; it is clean; once it is given it is done with, and there is no further trouble about it; and I may point out that it is a method which may also he perhaps advantageously applied in dealing with public utility societies. This method of subsidy was adopted in one of the late schemes, and it is generally believed that it led to great abuses. I think that those abuses have been exaggerated, but it did lead to abuses. It was given, no doubt, to certain houses which were not at all the houses which it was intended to produce by the scheme, but, as far as I can make out, there were not more than something like 15 per cent., at the outside, of the houses provided under the subsidy which were of that character. I would point out that we have tried to safeguard ourselves from any such abuse in this Bill, and it will be seen that, before approving proposals under this Clause, the Minister has to be satisfied that there is need for such houses in the area of such authority, and that the need cannot be met without assistance.
  The second method is one which permits the local authority to refund over a period
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  of time a portion or the whole of the rates upon the new houses. That is a proposal which has received a good deal of advertisement, because of the proposal of rate exemption, and a great many people have been affected by it, and have even suggested that it ought to be applied compulsorily. I, personally, should consider that it was an unwarrantable interference with the autonomy of local authorities, and when I am told that a plan of this kind has been extremely successful in New York, I would warn the public against accepting as applicable to this country conditions in another country where methods of taxation are very different from what they are here. As a matter of fact, there has been a general boom in building in the United States, which has not occurred only where this plan has been in operation. Of course, any subsidy big enough will stimulate building, and exemption from rates is really only a form of subsidy; but it is a concealed subsidy, which, to my mind, is the most objectionable of all subsidies, and, personally, I must say I do not at all approve of the idea. I would point out, however, that what is referred to in this Bill is not exemption from rates. It is merely an annual contribution from the local authority in respect of a house, instead of a lump sum, and the only reason for attaching it to the rates is to tie up that annual payment to a particular house, instead of to a particular individual.
  The third method is to encourage house purchase through building societies. I do not anticipate that any very great use kill be made of this particular method, seeing that the class of house which is in question is not likely to be inhabited by people who would be in a position to purchase their own dwelling-house. Nevertheless, I want to give the utmost possible latitude to local authorities to try different methods which may be applicable to different localities, and I think that is so important that I have included this method in the Bill, and it is possible that one might be able to add to this method by a provision which would allow the local authority to give assistance to public utility societies by means of an annual subsidy, as well as by that method in the first paragraph of the Sub-section which enables them to give a lump sum.

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  Clause 3 is designed to meet the case of certain public utility societies formed by railway companies or by associations such as that with which Sir Tudor Walters is connected. These Societies do not want to be tied up to the local authorities. They are quite willing to take upon themselves that part of the contribution which would be given by the local authority, and, seeing that they really can make a very substantial contribution to the total of the houses which will be available under the Bill, I think it is wise to make this special provision for them, and to allow us to deal directly with them. That is really the end of that part of the Bill which deals with the subsidy provisions. I am convinced that, under that provision, we shall get a very considerable number of houses built in the course of the next few years. There is only one thing that could stop them, and that would be a great rise in prices. I have already appointed a Committee, as the House knows, and I have been at some pains in the composition of that Committee to see that it shall include men who are in a position, I think, to effect its purpose. I do not think I need say more about that question to-day than to repeat what I have said before. We do not intend that this great, fresh burden upon the taxpayer shall be diverted from the purpose for which it is intended, in order to enrich a few individuals. I believe that my Committee, which will be meeting in the course of a few days, will be able to furnish this House and the public with that information which will bring to bear the first of those great forces about which the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite was speaking this afternoon in asking leave to introduce his Bill. We shall be able to mobilise public opinion and focus it against any attempt of any abuse, and while I hope it may not be necessary to resort to more drastic steps, I shall not hesitate, if the Committee give me reason to suppose it is necessary to have further powers, to come to this House and ask for them, or for anything which will safeguard us from an abuse of this subsidy.
  I come now to the powers which it is proposed to give to local authorities to facilitate building without State assistance, and I would call attention to Clauses 5 and 17, the latter of which
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  amends the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act, and I think they can be conveniently taken together, as they cover very much the same ground. It will be seen that these Clauses apply not only to the houses with which I have been dealing, but to the houses of a much larger type, and, in fact, they reach the type of house which is generally occupied by persons of the middle-class and superior artizan class. We are hoping that, under these Clauses, we may help these people to help themselves by providing the local authority with power to make advances to them, to assist them to build houses and to purchase houses for themselves. I have an hereditary interest in the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act, which, somehow or other, has never fulfilled the anticipations formed of it, and, by the provision of Clause 17, by the removal of some of the restrictions which have hampered it, by making it applicable to houses of a greater value, and to houses in course of construction, as well as those already constructed, we hope to make it more popular, and to see it more widely adopted by local authorities.
  Clause 5, as I said, is similar in its purpose, but it will be noticed that it is temporary in character, and that it goes further than Clause 17. It extends these powers of making advances, not only to persons who intend to occupy their houses, but to bodies of persons who construct or undertake to construct. That, of course, is intended to bring in the public utility societies. The estimated value of the house in respect of which advances can be made is raised to £1,500, and we have added a provision, which is intended to meet a set of circumstances which has frequently been brought to our notice. It is the custom of building societies to lend not more than 75 per cent. of the value of the house, and we are told—I am sure it is true—that there are many people who would be glad to buy a house, but that they cannot find the remaining 25 per cent. We think that if the local authorities are willing to provide a part of it, say, another 15 per cent., that will bring into operation quite a considerable number of people who have a certain amount of money at their disposal, but not quite enough. From that source, again, we shall get a considerable increase in the number of houses to be built. I regard this Clause as more or less experi-

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  mental. It only runs, as I have said, until September, 1925, but I shall watch it with interest, and if it proves successful, I see no reason why its provisions should not be incorporated in a further Amendment of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act.
  I would like to call attention to Subsection (1, c) of Clause 5, because it deals with another matter, which has been the subject of considerable controversy. There are a great number of empty houses, which, apparently, cannot be sold, and cannot be let, and a good many of those houses would instantly be occupied if they could be converted into flats or maisonettes, but the owner is restrained from incurring the expense in making the alterations which would be necessary, by the knowledge that if he did so his converted house would at once have its rates raised. Therefore this is a provision under which the local authority can practically keep the rates of a converted house of that kind where they are, and the local authority would be no worse off, because all the necessary services have already been provided ex hypothesi, and, if I am correctly informed, this provision, if adopted by local authorities, will probably result in the conversion of a considerable number of houses, and a consequent addition to the available accommodation.
  5.0 P.M.
  There are only four more Clauses to which I am going to make a brief passing notice. First of all, there is Clause 6, Sub-section (2), which is designed to give some assistance to existing public utility societies. I have a good deal of sympathy with these public utility societies. They were called into existence at a time when the most urgent appeals were being made for the erection of more houses, and I think there is little doubt that at the time it was intended to put them in practically the same position as the local authority by the assistance which was given to them from the State. Of course you cannot apply exactly the same method to a public utility society. You cannot limit it to a penny rate, but the assistance which is given by way of contribution towards the charges amount to 50 per cent. up to 1927, and thereafter to 30 per cent., and I believe it was thought that assistance was to put them in the same position as the local authorities. What happened? Costs
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  went up enormously, and, particularly, among other things, the rate of interest which they had to pay on the capital they borrowed went up. The result is, that many, if not most, of these societies to-day find themselves in a position when they cannot reduce their rents without going into bankruptcy, and they cannot let their houses unless they reduce their rents. As I say, I think they are deserving of a great deal of sympathy, and thus Sub-section is designed to give them further assistance. I have not been able to put in an exact figure, because our negotiations are not yet quite complete, but I am hoping that I shall be able, when we get into Committee upstairs, to put in a figure which will preserve most of these societies, if not all, from the consequences which, otherwise would befall them, and enable them to continue their useful work. I will pass to Clause 10, paragraph (c). Those who are familiar with the Housing Acts know that the local authority is able in certain circumstances, if the landlord will not or cannot carry out the repairs to a house, notice of which has been served on him by the local authority, the local authority can do the work itself and charge the landlord with the cost. But the local authority cannot borrow for that purpose. Thy must execute these repairs out of revenue, and that hinders very consider ably their undertaking of repairs. This provision enables them to borrow for the purpose of repairs, and I hope it will facilitate their operations in that way in the future.
  Clause 12 is one which deals with bye-laws. There are still antiquated bye-laws in force in the areas of nearly every kcal authority. These bye-laws hamper and impede the building of houses, especially at a time when costs are so high. Perhaps the local authorities in some cases are a bit antiquated too, at any rate, they do not seem to be able to get up steam enough to frame new bye-laws for themselves. So it is provided in Clause 12 that the Minister may devise a set of model bye-laws and local authorities may, by simple resolution, adopt that code and thereby save themselves the trouble of going into the details of a special code of their own. Lastly, I mention Clause 16, which extends the tine within which, under the Act of 1919,

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  local authorities must submit town planning schemes. I do not think I shall be accused of any want of interest in town-planning, but many local authorities have been very busily occupied with post-War problems, and, as I know from experience, the preparation of town-planning schemes is a very long and complicated affair. There is another point. There has been considerable development in recent years of regional town planning as opposed to town planning applied only to the area of one authority. It is extremely desirable that regional town planning should be extended. It enables the local authority to cover a wider area and to take a broader and more statesmanlike view of the needs of the future. But that needs time and therefore, at the request of the local authorities, and with my express approval, we are proposing to extend the time further within which it is necessary for these schemes to be submitted to us.
  I have concluded my survey of the Bill so far as I mean to go into it this afternoon, but I have one or two words to say in conclusion. I have noticed that there are a number of Amendments upon the Paper, and, in particular, I have seen one which has occasioned me some amusement. It is the official Amendment of the Labour party. It sets out with great elaboration no less than seven reasons why they cannot accept this Bill. I would have thought one reason would have been enough if it was a good one. I suppose the Labour party have collected these seven bad reasons, some of which do not seem to me to have much to do with the Housing Bill, in order to disclose the fact that long ago they made up their minds that they must oppose any Housing Bill. I am not going to ask, and I do not expect, them to withdraw their opposition, but when they have satisfied their offensive spirit by being beaten in the Lobby to-morrow night, I would appeal to them and to all hon. Members to recollect that building is a seasonal trade and that, while speeches are being made here and in Committee upstairs, precious hours are going by. Therefore, I would ask hon. Members, bearing that in mind, and bearing in mind the urgent need that we should get along with the building of the houses at the earliest possible moment and that we cannot expect local authorities to go full steam ahead until they
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  know exactly what is to be their position under the Bill—I would urge all hon. Members to confine their Amendments to those which they do consider absolutely necessary, and not to spend more time in discussing them than is necessary for their proper examination. On my part, I think I may undertake that, while of course I could not give way on anything which I really regard as vital to the main principles of the Bill, I am not so conceited as to think the Bill is perfect as it stands, and I am perfectly ready to listen to and, so far as I can, to meet any Amendments which may be put forward by hon. Members, so long as they are put forward in a constructive spirit and With a genuine desire to improve the Bill.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words
  "this House cannot assent to the Second Reading of a Bill which is inadequate to deal with the present housing shortage, ignores the difficulty of land purchase and transfer, fails to provide the means of securing a sufficient supply of building materials at reasonable prices; throws an excessive financial burden upon local authorities and interferes unnecessarily with their administrative powers, fails to reduce the burden of interest imposed upon dwelling-houses by the present financial system, and provides only for an unreasonably small type of house."
  If it will not be thought presumptuous on my part, I would like to begin by congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the lucid and eloquent manner in which he introduced his Bill. I am grateful to him for that, because I think the clearer he makes the Bill the less the Bill appeals to this House. I am bound to say that, as I listened to the right hon. Gentleman, I became more and more convinced that he does not understand the extent of the housing problem, that he does not understand the cause of the housing shortage, and that he does not understand the people and has no sympathy with the people for whom he is endeavouring to provide in this Measure. I would like, to some extent, to cover the ground which was traversed by the right hon. Gentleman. May I say at the outset that the housing problem is not one of house building; it is really a problem of finance? It is part and parcel of that great social problem by which, at every step, we are

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  baffled by poverty at one end and exploitation at the other. I was pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman admit that conditions are becoming worse, and I do not think he has over-estimated the extent of the worst of it. He tells us that something like that 54,000 houses have been provided to reduce the shortage of houses that existed in 1919, when the local authorities, in response to the appeal by the Government, made their return of the shortage. But may I remind him that, in addition to the deduction he made for the natural expansion of the population, he should have made a further deduction for the depreciation of property that has occurred during these years?
  I have no doubt, if he were to consult the larger local authorities, he would find that to-day the shortage in every one of their areas is considerably greater than it was four years ago. In the city of which I am one of the representatives, there are on the waiting list of the Corporation at the present moment over 20,000 names of applicants who want houses. Probably more than a half of that 20,000 are families who have never known what it was to have homes of their own. They are married couples who live a sort of vagrant existence in furnished lodgings; they have never known the stability and the joy and the inspiration of family life which is so essential not merely to their happiness but to communal welfare. But to stop at the figures relating to the actual returns in the shortage of houses would be to display an utter lack of capacity to take a comprehensive view of the situation with which we are faced. We have to take into account the unsanitary houses which are occupied and which are in many cases over-crowded. Again, to take the city with whose affairs I am connected, and which may be taken at a type, the tinder-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health, in reply to a question the other day, stated that there are at the moment in the City of Glasgow no less than 13,195 houses occupied by 58,000 human beings, which houses are certified by the Medical Officer of Health for the City as not reasonably fit for human habitation. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman and everyone who has had any connection with local authorities knows that in the present condition of things it is abso-
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  lutely impossible for the local authorities to provide against the evil of the insanitary house because of lack of alternative accommodation, and that to all intents and purposes all the Housing Acts referred to in the present Bill are a dead letter in their operation.
  But even there you do not exhaust the examination of the housing problem; you have to go further and take into account the abominably low standard of houses in which a very large percentage of our population reside. In the City of Glasgow 66 per cent. of the houses are of not more than two apartments. In these houses, speaking generally, you have neither bathroom nor closet accommodation, but three families as a rule have to use the common closet, and the vast majority have to go without bathing facilities so far as the home is concerned. When you turn to the neighbouring County of Lanark, the condition is actually worse. I find that in Lanarkshire 69·3 per cent. of the houses are of the one and two-room type to which I have referred. No statistics, no reports, no speeches can convey to those who have not had the experience of that life what it means to the unfortunate inhabitants of that kind of life. May I try to convey some of it to hon. Members, so far as it may be, in the words, not of members of the Labour party or of members of your own party? I take two extracts from the newspapers over the week-end, and I find that in an Edinburgh Court a young man who had been found guilty of incest, stated that he was driven to commit the offence because of the conditions under which he lived. I have got another extract from the report of the sanitary inspector of Cowdenbeath, in Fifeshire. In that report that gentleman states that the work of improving the housing conditions during the past year have been carried on with vigour, but progress was slow, so slow in fact that little difference was being felt in the congestion which exists in the burgh. Cases have been encountered, continues the report, where a whole family of eight persons, four adults and four children, were occupying a one-roomed apartment, three separate families were occupying a two-apartment house, two families were utilising one apartment between them, a family of five was living in the scullery, and a family of 12, nine adults and three children, were

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  living in two-apartment houses, a family of 16, 11 adults and five children, occupied another two apartments.
  I mentioned that it was difficult to understand these things from reports or from extracts. I speak as one of the many people on this side of the House who has studied the housing problem from hard experience of living in the slums. I was one of 11 persons who lived, not merely for a month but for years in a single apartment dwelling in Lanarkshire. I am perfectly satisfied, if I attempted it, I could shock even hon. Members on the other side of the House by a narrative of what life means under those conditions. But I would say to hon. Members that not merely do you not understand the housing problem, but you do not understand the intense and imperishable hatred of your social order that is bred in the breasts of the victims of these housing conditions. Surely hon. Members on the other side of the House must agree that those conditions are a national disgrace? Surely it is not something to the honour and glory of the Empire that the representative of the Government should stand up in this House and tell us that what he is proposing is not intended as a solution of the problem? Surely the time has arrived when the country wants a solution, and if he confesses to political bankruptcy on that side of the House, is that any reason why the country should go without a solution of the problem?
  If you are to deal with the housing problem you must be prepared, not merely to remove the housing shortage, you must also be prepared to deal with the insanitary houses in which hundreds of thousands of our people to-day are residing. You must be prepared to go further and remove the low standard of housing referred to in the report from which I have given extracts. The housing problem is Britain's greatest and most pressing problem, and in dealing with that problem, I submit the Measure that has been introduced this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman has only added insult to injury. I followed with interest his explanation of the cause. It was somewhat characteristic for it suggested the old practice of the people being deluded into turning from one party to the other party in the hope of getting an escape from their difficulties. He said it was due mainly to two things. First and
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  foremost it was the Finance Act passed towards the close of 1909. Secondly, it was due to the War. I wish that the causes of the problem were so easily overthrown as has been the author of the Finance Act, 1909. In attributing to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the exercise of such a baneful influence over the House of Commons and the country you are only adopting a favourite system of hero worship. The shortage is due to something more durable than the right hon. Gentleman, to something more powerful than he, and to something that you will find more difficulty in overthrowing than you did in overthrowing the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Premier.
  Nor is it due to the War. One might have gathered from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill that slums have been of recent growth. Why, it is 30 years since I left the single-apartment room which I occupied in the county of Lanarkshire. It was long before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs came into power; long before you had the War. As a matter of fact, does not every Member of this House recall the housing shortage which got to such a stage at the beginning of 1915, a few months after the outbreak of the War? In order to control the houseowners and their agents you introduced the first Rent Restrictions Act. Houses had been getting scarcer and scarcer since about 1910. It is mere accident that it was contemporaneous with the Measure of the right hon. Gentleman. It was due to—and I think I should be able to convince anyone on the other side—business experience, and the inevitable outcome of the formation of rings and combines in the building industry. If you think of the needs of houses, and how the things stood, you will see what brought about the shortage. Houses differ from other commodities in their durability. A loaf of bread baked on Monday has no influence at all in fixing the loaf of bread baked on Wednesday. The baker of Wednesday's loaf can put the full cost of baking on to that of Wednesday's loaf when he puts it on the market. When the rings came into operation they rapidly put up housing costs. I think one of the very first was the Light Castings Association. One of its members told me that within 18 months of its formation they were able

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  to put up the price of their commodities by no less than 60 per cent.
  Sir PHILIP PILDITCH: What date was that?
  Mr. WHEATLEY: About the year 1910.
  Lieut. -Colonel FREMANTLE: Of course the hon. Member realises that any shortage in 1910 would not be due to that cause?
  Mr. WHEATLEY: I will be able to explain the matter, even to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Light Castings Combine, in its earlier formation, induced the manufacturers and merchants of other building materials to form similar rings, and between 1910 and 1913 the cost of building houses in the City of Glasgow had gone up by 30 per cent. I said that housing differed from other commodities in the fact of its durability. Empty houses which have been built at the pre-trust prices had to be let in competition with houses built at a higher price. It has frequently been urged, even by hon. Members on the opposite side, that, a house built at higher price could not compete with the house of an owner who had found empty houses in the market which had been built at the lower prices and bought then. Consequently building had to slow down. Capital had to be withdrawn from the industry. Labour had to be withdrawn until two things had happened!
  Until first of all the enormous number of empty houses built at the lower cost of production had disappeared from the market, and the scarcity had enabled the owners of the cheaper houses to raise the rent and the standard at which new houses could be built and profitably let. You had actually reached that stage in the economic evolution of housing at the end of 1914. There was a scarcity of houses, and owners were setting out to increase the rents, when you, having a War on, found it undesirable that you should be fighting tenants at home and Germans abroad. Therefore you decided to stop the war at home until you had succeeded in defeating your enemies in the foreign fields. You practically said to the tenants: "You stand aside, you can wait until we have disposed of the Germans—and then we will be able to
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  dispose of you!" I make bold to say that if to-day you were engaged in a war with Germany, or any other Power of equal capacity, that it would be much easier for the tenants of this country to make terms with you on the question of housing.
  Let me now, having, as I said, covered the ground so far as the cause of the housing shortage is concerned, try to turn the attention of the House to the essentials of dealing successfully with the housing problem. In providing the necessary housing four things are required: you require land, materials, finance and labour. I do not think I agree with all the people who say that private ownership of land is the one thing that stands in the way. I can find nothing to convince me that the cost of the site is responsible for the necessity of having to subsidise the rent of houses. I think land can be usually had for something in the neighbourhood of £400 per acre. Under the Addison scheme the maximum permitted to local authorities was £500 per acre. Now it is proposed to erect 20 houses to the acre, so that the total cost for the purchase of the site of each house will be exactly £20. That £20 has to be distributed over 60 years, so that we find the actual cost of the site only adds 7s. a year to the rent of the house, which rent we are required to subsidise now by at least £12 a year. I agree with those who say that private ownership of land adds to the cost of materials and other things, and I want as enthusiastically as anyone in this House to abolish as speedily as possible private ownership in the land of this country.
  As far as housing is concerned, my objection is not so much on the ground of price as on the ground of the power it places in the hands of the private owner to prevent the public getting one of the necessaries of life. The Minister of Health talks about a period of two years, but if he examines the files of his office he will find evidence of cases where two years were laboriously spent by the local authorities and the Board of Health trying to get possession and approval of a site for housing under the late Addison scheme. This Bill does nothing substantial to increase the facilities for local authorities obtaining land, and on that ground alone it is quite inadequate for dealing with the housing problem, and on that ground alone it ought to be rejected.

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  When you come to deal with the question of rings you are up against the greatest element in the whole problem. It is quite true that the right hon. Gentleman has appointed a Committee to deal with this question, but I wish he would consult the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) in regard to his experience in dealing with rings and combines in building materials. I think the right hon. Baronet could explain some of the difficulties that stand in the way. Rings and combines are the inevitable and natural outcome of the competitive industrial system, but, after all, they are merely but the last round in a contest for the elimination of the weaker from the industry. If you put it in another way, they are a combination of the survivals in the struggle which has taken place in that industry. Every attempt to deal with rings and combines is faced with all the difficulties you encounter in trying to curb private enterprise. How could we expect the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea, the champion of private enterprise, to use his position and his Government to destroy private enterprise? How could we expect a monopolist in chemicals to become an effective weapon in destroying monopolies in cement? We are told that trusts and combines are nationally desirable because they eliminate waste, but I wish to point out that all the benefits go to the few who happen to be the members of those combines, and they use their powers for the exploitation of the masses of the people for the benefit of the few. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee will be required to wink and nod at many of the operations of the building rings, and the Minister of Health will find the utmost difficulty in controlling the prices of materials while the manufacture and distribution of those materials are in the hands of private owners.
  We all know the experience of the building department which dealt with building materials and supply under the Addison scheme. There an attempt was made to control prices, but only the prices of such materials as were to be used in the building of houses, and the result was instead of the materials going to housing where prices were controlled they went to the erection of picture
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  palaces where the prices were uncontrolled. That is only one method of escape which may be adopted by the rings and combines, and the only way which the country will be driven to in order to find a solution of this problem—even if it is necessary to rid itself of a Conservative Government—will be by undertaking the manufacture of the building materials required in the housing problem, and you will be driven to produce homes for heroes exactly the same way as you were driven to produce shells for heroes.
  There is another aspect of this question to which no attention has been given by the Minister of Health, probably because he understands nothing about it. The Labour party have been chaffed for having referred to this question. I allude to the question of finance. The rings and combines have been increasing their stranglehold on the housing industry. The type of house now proposed by the right hon. Gentleman could have been built in pre-War days for something in the neighbourhood of £200—I am putting it at a high figure at that, but the case is so strong that I do not want to exaggerate it by a fraction. Before the War the money could have been borrowed quite easily at 3 per cent., with the result that the burden of interest on the rent in pre-War days for such a house would have been about £6 per annum. During the operation of the Addison scheme the cost of building houses of that description went up from £200 to the neighbourhood of £1,100, and the rate of interest on the capital went up from 3 per cent. to 6 per cent. What was the result? On the £1,100 capital necessary for this small house, there had to be paid £66 in interest. In other words, the burden of interest on all houses of that kind went up during the War by 1,000 per cent. The right hon. Gentleman takes the optimistic view that prices have fallen, and he is now going to escape the grip of the moneylender, but on that point I am not so optimistic as the right hon. Gentleman. I know prices have fallen because you are not building houses. Under your system the only thing you could do was to stop private enterprise from building houses and prevent local authorities from taking their place. The only way to solve this question is to deliver the goods, and you have not been able to do that. Prices are

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  down to one-half of what they soared to during the régime of Dr. Addison.
  I do not think I should be overestimating it if I said that the money necessary to cover the cost of the site, the roads, and the sewers of the house which is required will be in the neighbourhood of £500, and the rate of interest will not be less than 5 per cent. The method adopted in this Bill, because the right hon. Gentleman and his Government do not understand the problem at all, is the very method by which you will put up the rate of interest. You say that all these local authorities will compete for the available capital, but the result will be to put up the price of money. The price of your housing capital will be at least 5 per cent. Even if you take it that you will be able to control the rings and compel them to deliver the houses at £500, and you get the money at 5 per cent., there is still a burden of £25 per annum to be placed by the money lenders of this country on the rent of the smallest type of working-class house that even a Conservative Government can provide. We object to a Government which, in dealing with the housing problem, takes no account of that side of the question. They tell us that we are dealing jocularly with this problem, and that we are trying to get in a number of bad arguments because we cannot find good ones.
  Then there is the question of the provision of labour. Here I blame the trusts for having left you in the present position. Let me say quite frankly that when you set about building these houses you will find that you have not a sufficient quantity of skilled labour in this country, and to what is that due? It is due to the fact that private enterprise, having reached the apex of its prosperity in trusts, and having brought the building industry to a standstill, have left no future open to those who were engaged in the building industry. The consequence was that your skilled men emigrated. What is the way to remove that shortage of labour? Is it not to give those engaged in the building industry some prospects of a successful future? Is it not a better policy to try and convince the skilled operators of this country that, there is no need for them to go abroad, and that there will be plenty of work in rebuilding the large areas of
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  this country which will have to be done if you are going to solve the housing problem. You will have to convince the fathers and mothers of this country that in putting their children into the building industry and housing they are likely to have some security for sufficiency in years to come.
  When all this is wanted, the Minister of Health brings in a Bill which says this scheme is only to last for two years, and if you will only wait for two years it will then be open for you to go to Canada and you can have 160 acres in a land far, far away. You say to the youths of this country, if you enter this industry as apprentices you will have two years' training, but we cannot guarantee that there will be any future for you in the industry after the two years is over. Therefore the two years' limit is ridiculously inadequate, and this must be quite apparent to all those who understand the difficulties of negotiating with local authorities. The local authority has to convince the right hon. Gentleman not merely that there is a shortage but that private enterprise cannot remove that shortage by providing the houses. Negotiations have to take place for the sites, and then there is the question of the rent, and the period fixed is two years. I object to these proposals on the broader ground of not giving security for the necessary labour. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would realise that everyone engaged in the industry, and every member of every political party outside Parliament is agreed that private enterprise is not in the future going to provide working-class houses as it did before the War, but that the provision of working-class houses will in the future be a public enterprise, and, realising that, will tell the people that we are going permanently into this industry and intend to remain in it, and that, if they will send their boys into these trades, they will have security in them to obtain an adequate livelihood. I know the right hon. Gentleman would argue that, if you did not put on a limit, there would be no stimulus to the local authorities. May I assure him that it is not the local authorities who require a stimulus but His Majesty's Government? The stimulus is needed on the other side of this House. There is no need to stimulate the local authorities. I only wish the Government were as enthusiastic in

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  regard to housing as their Conservative supporters in the local authorities all over the country are.
  Let me just, in a few words, refer to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman and to the provisions of the Bill in its general outline. I should like to emphasise what the right hon. Gentleman said, namely, that in this Bill you are transferring the unknown liability from the State to the local authorities, and you are limiting it to 20 years. Assuming, as I think you may, that the houses are going to cost £450 or £500, it will become necessary, even with a £12 subsidy, to charge to the people who inhabit those houses a rent which, combined with rates, will amount to not less than £40 a year. May I, however, remind the House that the working classes of this country have been reduced now to such a position that a large proportion of them have not an income exceeding £100 per annum; and to expect people to pay 40 per cent. of their income for housing accommodation, particularly when the income is down to about 40s. a week, is expecting too much from human nature. May I remind the right hon. Gentleman, also, that there must be some system of differentiation in dealing with the subsidising of houses—that the cost of erecting a house is not merely greater in Scotland than in England, but it is greater in the rural areas than in the industrial centres; and that the result, if you stick to this system of making no differentiation, will be merely to discourage enterprise in the rural areas. It will be quite impossible for them, with their lower valuation, to proceed with the erection of houses, and you will drive the population more and more into the already congested industrial areas. May I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, apart from party politics, to give some encouragement to the population of this country not to crowd into the cities to any greater extent than they have already done in the past?
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that local authorities might, of course, grant relief of rates to certain people who would provide houses, but this again is the old Conservative policy of compelling the poor to help the poor. The right hon. Gentleman is following out the principle that has been adopted on the other side for a considerable time now, of relieving the richer people, who can afford to live
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  outside the poverty-stricken areas, of all the financial burden of dealing with these social problems, and throwing the entire burden on the poor people who most require assistance. I would not mind if all rates on houses were abolished. I think the time has arrived when it should be seriously considered by any Government in this House that, housing accommodation being one of the necessaries of life, and being hampered by the existing economic conditions, the whole system of placing local rates on housing accommodation might be abolished. I do not care whether the rates are placed on land or whether they are found in super-taxation, but I do submit that to find them either from the land or from super-taxation would be a more equitable and humane way than placing them as a barrier in the way of the man who wants a good house and who is responsible for the healthy upbringing of children.
  I am not enthusiastic about the right hon. Gentleman's scheme for clearing slum areas. I know that, whenever housing is talked about, housing reformers of a certain type always appeal to one's emotions by talking of the poor folk in the slums, but may I remind the House that this is not the way to deal with the housing problem at all? The way to deal with the housing problem is to provide healthy houses, and to say to the people in the slums, "Come out of those wretched dens of yours, which we want to close, and we will find you healthy habitations"; and then to say to the owners of those houses, as you would say to the owners of diseased meat, "We are not going to allow you to make a profit out of these unhealthy houses, but are going to pull them down and remove them at your own and not at the public expense." Nor do I think there is much that we should consider seriously in the provision for giving financial assistance to the owner-occupier in the erection of a house. That all betrays a total divorcement from the actual facts of industrial life to-day, What section of the working classes have a sufficiency to enable them to consider seriously the erection of a house to-day, and what section of them have security for the erection of a house to-day in any particular locality?
  I do not want to deal with other details of the Bill, but I would like to say in

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  conclusion that the houses are too small—they are miserably small. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman must have shocked his own supporters when he talked of a parlour 10 feet 6 inches by 9 feet 3 inches. I wonder what were the dimensions of the table on which the right hon. Gentleman was writing his figures. These houses will never be homes. They will very soon be slums. They proceed on the assumption that the working classes have no friends, and do not require any place in which to entertain their friends. As I listened to the right hon. Gentleman, I could not help feeling that his idea of a home was that of a jack-in-the-box. May I remind him that he is here laying down the standard of housing in this country, not merely for to-day but for 30 years to come—that he is stereotyping poverty? Whatever be the vicissitudes of party politics in this country, he is stereo typing poverty in housing for half a century to come, and he is giving Parliamentary acceptance to the permanency of class distinctions in this country. He talks about the people for whom these houses are being provided. Why should you object to the preaching of class war on this side? What are you doing in all your legislation? Why do you propose these boxes for our people? Are they inferior people to you? Are they less useful to the community than you? Are you laying it down that this Britain of ours is not, within 50 or 60 years from now, to rise in its housing superior to the boxes which you are providing in this Bill to-day? All these proposals emanate from men who believe in their souls that Britain is a spent force, and that all you require is some temporary Measure such as this in order to house your old and faithful servants, until by your legislation you can shift them to the Antipodes. Fortunately, however, for Britain, and, I think, fortunately for the human race, the control of this country and the control of this Empire is rapidly passing out of the hands of the people who bring a Measure like this before the Members of this House.
  Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I want, if I may, to make one or two comments on the agreement which the Minister of Health is supposed to have made with the local authorities in con-
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  nection with this Bill. I think the Minister will find that those people who negotiated with him on behalf of the local authorities will be far from satisfied with the provisions of the Measure which he has presented to the House to-day. In fact, I could state on fairly reliable authority that some of the provisions of this Measure are condemned by some of those authorities, and by the leaders of the municipal councils concerned, as by far too restricted. Indeed, some of them are of the opinion that the Minister has already broken a bargain with them in this connection.
  I listened with a great deal of interest to what the Minister said, and, if I remember rightly, he made a statement to the effect that the case against our housing conditions had already been made out, and that he need hardly again call the attention of the House of Commons to the conditions which now prevail. I rather disagree with the Minister in that statement; and I am reminded that he represents a Division of the great city of Birmingham. A few weeks ago I visited Deritend, one of the poorest Divisions in that great city, and I thought that I never saw a more mean or squalid part of this country than I saw in the very city which the right hon. Gentleman represents. On the other hand, I thought he would have been touched by the extreme parallel of that magnificent garden city, Bournville, built by Messrs. Cadbury Brothers, and that he would have been stimulated by the two sights—the district of Deritend on the one hand and Bournville on the other—to give us a better Bill than he has produced to-day. I have said that I am not convinced that the House of Commons, and I am sure that neither this Government nor its predecessors, have ever been convinced yet of the terrible circumstances under which most of our people live. I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that at least 10 per cent. of the population of this country are living in slum dwellings at the moment.
  I want to approach this Bill from an entirely different aspect from that which has been referred to already, and to pursue the point that we are bound in the first place to convince, not only the House of Commons and the Government, but the people of this country, that the housing conditions are bad in themselves. The other day information was given that the

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  London County Council took a census in 1921, and found, to my astonishment, that 147,797 families, totalling 262,263 persons, occupied one room each, and that 2,433,136 persons had less than one room each to live in. I want to bring to the notice of the Minister this point, that his Bill fails to deal with one aspect of this problem which is very acute. On the very night when this census was taken it was found that there were 18,969 empty houses, with 101,554 vacant rooms in the City of London. I think that the Minister of Health ought to have inserted a Clause in this Bill to deal with the atrocious system that allows a landlord to hold an ordinary family house vacant, free of rates in the vast majority of cases, without any compulsion upon him at all to let that house. In fact, what he does now is to keep the house on sale with vacant possession, and to sell it to the highest bidder at an extortionate price.
  6.0 P.M.
  There is no provision in the Measure either to deal with the large number of temporary dwellings which were brought under the control of the Ministry of Health itself, because in their own Report for 1921–22, 2,928 temporary dwellings were provided by the conversion of huts and hostels. The Minister ought to have told us something as to what is likely to happen with the thousands of shanties, to use a slang term, which were brought under his control. As stated, I want to approach the housing problem from an entirely different angle. I believe bad housing is a costly thing in itself. It is a fertile breeding ground for crime, for intemperance, for immorality and for all the bad things that afflict a community. A census was taken in Manchester, whence the provisions of this Bill emanate, of juvenile crime, and the local education authority found out from it where the boys and girls who played truant and committed offences came from. Out of 100 selected cases of juvenile crime, 88 came from the crowded central area, which is only a quarter the size of the whole of the city. In that area there is one person to every 356 square yards and in the rest of the city one person to 980 square yards. You will always find a close and intimate relationship between juvenile crime, immorality and intem-
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  perance and the number of people who are crowded on an acre of land.
  I think it would have been well if the Minister of Health had brought a very much more generous Bill before the House. I fail to understand, for instance, how he expects local authorities to do in two years under the provisions of this Measure what they failed to accomplish from 1918 to 1923. The position is impossible. The Minister has assumed, in connection with the size of the houses, that all districts in the country are accustomed to the non-parlour type of house. There are one or two local authorities who, if they are not allowed a sufficient space to provide a parlour in each house, will not lay a brick under this scheme. I trust in our further discussions on the Bill we shall be able to extend the amount of space allowed, and I hope that the maximum which will be accepted by the Minister will not be less than 1,150 feet. I do not think there is a proper appreciation of this problem, and I want to leave another suggestion with the Minister. There was a time when housing schemes had to be arranged that the workpeople were compelled of necessity to live near their place of employment. I want any future schemes to be so set out that houses shall not be built near any factory or workshop, but that the people shall be taken out of those surroundings in which they are now living far removed from their scenes of labour. If we had a Minister exclusively in charge of the housing of the people as we had a Minister to tarry on the War, these problems would have been settled provided we had the same energy to house the people properly as we had for fighting our enemies. We can now facilitate the transport of the workpeople in all our big towns from their work to their place of residence. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not sanction any schemes at all unless they are removed from industrial areas. I want a segregation of the industrial factories and workshops from the places of residence of our people.
  As stated, I had hoped the Minister's proposals would be very much more generous. I cannot see some local authorities accepting these proposals very heartily. Six pounds per house for 20 years to some of them is not very much. I know that some local authorities would have been quite content with less, but the progres-

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  sive authorities, I feel positive, will require very much more than the Minister is proposing to induce them to work. I came across a scheme the other day which I think would have fitted our situation very well. Hamburg is a free city, entitled to make its own laws and by-laws, and the corporation decided that the way to deal with the housing difficulty was that every family of five persons would be allowed six rooms, but that every family of five which had more than six rooms must find accommodation for the homeless. They had, however, the alternative that if a family with more than six rooms did not desire another family to live with them, all they had to do was to pay a tax to provide money to build houses for the homeless. Needless to say it was a Socialist municipal council that did that, and I dare say that if we had a Socialist Government we might attempt the same thing here, too. It is very interesting to those who are interested at all in a scheme of that kind to find that one very rich person in Hamburg, who lives in a very large mansion, whose name is pretty well known in financial circles in this and other countries, had to contribute, because he had so much spare accommodation, sufficient to build 25 working-class cottages. I do not think a scheme of that kind would be at all amiss in this country. I am very anxious that we should have better housing accommodation for our people in order to prevent the waste of money now proceeding. I will describe what I mean. As a member of the local authority for Manchester, it pains me very much to find scores and hundreds of young people brought from the slums of our great city, tested by the medical officer and carried away to sanatoria right on the hills of Wales and in parts of Cheshire, where we spend about £2 10s. per week each in order to cure them. We provide them with the best medical attention we can give, and in about nine or 12 months after we have done all we can in that way they are brought home partly cured and return to exactly the same spot where they contracted consumption in the first instance, at a cost to our city of about £200,000 per annum on sanatoria alone. It is the policy of the party to which I belong, and I am hoping
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  that some day it will be the policy of the Government of the day, that we shall spend less on these institutions—workhouses, hospitals and sanatoria—that we shall not be bothered with dealing with effects, but we shall deal with the root causes, and the root cause in this case of consumption—intemperance in part, immorality in part—comes back in the end to the bad housing conditions of the people. I trust the further we discuss this Measure, the more we go into details, the Minister will give us more generous treatment, especially in those parts of the Bill to which I have referred.
  Sir JOHN HEWETT: I am sure I can rely on the House, in accordance with its generous practice, making allowance for one who addresses it for the first time. I propose to refer only to the conditions prevailing at Luton, the headquarters of my constituency, because I do not know anything of the conditions elsewhere, and I know that there there is a great need for increased house accommodation both among the working classes and the lower middle class. The history of Luton before the war in respect of housing is a rather remarkable one. The town grew at the beginning of the century more rapidly than any town in England except Coventry, and it rose in about a quarter of a century to be nearly double its previous size, reaching the respectable size of 60,000 inhabitants. There was naturally a great demand for housing in that period. The whole needs of the town were met by the speculative builder and by private enterprise. There were many shrewd business men who had made small fortunes at different kinds of business in town who were ready to take off the hands of the speculative builder the houses as soon as he had built them. The tendency during the whole of this period was to build, as time went on, a better type of house. Sometimes there were only two bedrooms. Much more often there were three. Sometimes there was a bathroom, sometimes there was not. But in every single instance, for the last 15 years or so, there was a parlour in addition to the sitting room. The result of the efforts of private enterprise was also to provide a cheap form of house. When the War came there was no shortage whatever of houses. In fact there was a slight surplus above the

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  needs of the town. When the War ended, 1,500 houses were required. Under the scheme introduced by Dr. Addison 100 houses were built. No houses have been built since. The present needs of the town are for 3,000 houses. The House will admit that the constituency I represent has, therefore, a real interest in a Bill which we hope will have the effect of giving it the opportunity of getting more housing accommodation.
  If I may say so without presumption, I think the Bill which has been introduced to-day by the Minister of Health—whose experience in municipal administration and in municipal housing is as great, at least, as that of anybody else in the House—is an admirable one, well calculated to carry out the object of producing a housing scheme for the country. One particularly good point about it is that it avoids the faults of previous Bills, which involved the Government in an indefinite amount of expenditure. It is right and proper that the Government share should be strictly limited, and the responsibility for enforcing economy should be laid on the local authority. In Luton, the local authority is, I fear, not likely to wish to do much in the way of building itself, since it, burnt its fingers rather badly over the previous scheme. The number of occupiers of houses purchased for themselves is only about 20 per cent., and it does not appear likely that there will be many more purchasers of houses in the future than in the past.
  I think it will be necessary to look again to the private investor and private enterprise. There are signs that private enterprise is beginning to awaken again, but there are two factors which tend to retard this progress. One factor is that so long as no definite date is fixed for decontrol, people will always be afraid that legislation may be undertaken to place the rents of houses built since 1919 under control. The second reason is that with materials 60 per cent. to 70 per cent. above the cost before the War, and with building costs nearer 100 than 75 per cent. above what they were before the War, it is not possible for a house to be built, without assistance, which a purchaser can afford to buy. The three methods of assisting building, which the Bill provides, should encourage private enterprise to start building again in Luton. Everyone will readily admit the contention of
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  the Minister that those who have the greatest need should be the first to be looked after, but if you pursue that argument too far it would practically mean that no one would receive any assistance for some time, except in London. We have in Luton a town of 10,000 houses, and we ought to have 3,000 more. There are within that area a large number of people who are suffering very much from shortage of houses and who should come as soon as possible under the benefits of this Bill.
  I want to be plain about one matter, and that is in regard to the type of house required in Luton. Before the War everyone got accustomed to the parlour house. The borough council has passed a resolution that the town will not be satisfied without the parlour house. These views are shared by everyone in the town. It is, therefore, perfectly certain that unless the Government scheme will permit of a house being built which shall be able to provide a parlour as well as a living room, it will be of no advantage to the town of Luton. I have had the opportunity of looking at the plan to which the Minister referred. That plan has a surface area of 850 feet and provides for three bedrooms, a parlour, and a living room. I have one or two objections to take to the space provided in that plan. In the first place, the parlour is not big enough. In the second place, the scullery of 7 feet 6 inches by 5 feet 10 inches, which is to have a copper, sink and gas-stove, does not give the housewife enough elbow room. The third bedroom, which is 10 feet 6 inches by 6 feet 10 inches is much two small for, say, two growing boys or two growing girls to occupy. I am told by the Borough Council of Luton that such a room would not have sufficient floor space to be sanctioned under the by-laws of the borough. We want the houses to be built under these schemes to be milestones on the road of progress. We do not want to find, after advances have, been made in sanitary science, of which we cannot at present make any forecast, that 20 years hence the houses are not adapted to the sanitary arrangements which everybody might then consider necessary. I therefore, earnestly appeal to the Minister to take this matter into consideration, because I feel that his Measure will be shorn of

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  much of its utility if he restricts the area to 850 feet. I appeal to him to allow the area to be enlarged.
  Sir ALFRED MOND: I am sure the House has listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Luton (Sir J. Hewett), who has addressed us for the first time with such success, and has added so much to the value of the Debate. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, carrying what I may call the shirt of Nessus of the housing question, which I took over from my predecessor a considerable time ago, is to be congratulated on the very able and lucid speech he made, and on the tone of his remarks. He, like all of us, is convinced that the housing question is in a far from satisfactory condition, that the housing accommodation of the people of this country is far below the standard either of hygiene or of comfort which we would like to see, and he had, somewhat mournfully, to confess that, after all the efforts which had been made, the question was still far from being solved, and that he himself was only preparing to lay a very small brick in the edifice of reform which is still required. I wish my right hon. Friend, with all his experience, under happier auspices than I had, at a time of cheaper building, and with a large Government surplus, which I did not possess, had proceeded with a more elaborate scheme. I took over the remnants of a scheme for which I was not myself responsible and which I had to wind up, at a time of great financial stringency, but always looking forward to the time when a halt would be called and one could proceed on lines of a somewhat different character.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend that the general financial lines of the Bill are very much sounder than the old scheme, and on a larger and more definite scale. My right hon. Friend omitted to inform the House what financial aspect the proposals will have. That is a very important point with which, no doubt, he will deal at some future date. I recognise that he could not cover entirely the whole ground in his speech to-day. I should like to know how many houses he expects to be built, what will be the annual expenditure on his estimate, and what will be the additional capital charge this year, added to the capital charge already incurred,
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  which, from my recollection, is something like £960,000,000 under the old schemes. Although my right hon. Friend said that what had been done had not achieved very great results, I must remind the House that, in one way or another, the late Government did contribute something like 226,000 houses to the housing needs of the country—the biggest effort which has ever been made in the history of the country, and the first time the Government has ever intervened in this question.
  Mr. J. JONES: What about the promises made?
  Sir A. MOND: A very large part of the promises were carried out. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Certainly. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the 500,000 houses?"] Well, 226,000 houses is nearly half of 500,000.
  Mr. JONES: You had better get yourself a bouquet.
  Sir A. MOND: We shall not advance the cause by the interruptions from my hon. Friend. It was a very considerable contribution. In dealing with this problem, my right hon. Friend will find exactly the same difficulty that I experienced, and that is, the number of houses you can get built is very strictly limited. One of the difficulties I had to deal with was the limitation of skilled labour in the building industry. If certain negotiations in which I was interested some years ago, which would have enabled us to train unemployed ex-service men in the building trade, had come to fruition, we should not have been in the position of having tens of thousands of houses standing unfinished because there were no plasterers, or of being in the position that we could not continue building because there were no more bricklayers. That is an important point.
  Mr. JONES: It is not true.
  Sir A. MOND: It was the case.
  Mr. JONES: We were building factories for you, and cinemas which you did not stop.
  Sir A. MOND: The cinemas were stopped by Dr. Addison when he was Minister of Health. Anyone who has seen the figures which the Minister of Labour gave to me yesterday of the unemployed men in the building trade will know that the numbers of skilled men in

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  the trade are not so great that you can very largely extend the amount of housing accommodation, and that we cannot achieve something like 50,000 or 60,000 houses a year unless there is a larger increase in the supply of labour. That is a very limiting factor, and a very important one. The right hon. Gentleman gave a figure with which I am very familiar, as to how the shortage is to be caught up with the materials and labour at our disposal in any given time. I do not want to enter into past controversy, but I cannot without a protest leave the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the discussion on the Budget of 1909–10 was the serious cause of the falling off of building at that time. I know that allegation has often been made, but I do not think it bears serious investigation. My right hon. Friend must know that the opportunities for money being more profitably employed in other directions than building were more contributory to the falling off in building than the speeches of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George).
  My right hon. Friend's whole desire, as I understood him, is to get back to private enterprise as soon as possible. We have to admit that private enterprise, so far as this particular type of house is concerned, failed long before the War, and I think failed owing to economic causes. That was a matter which presented ones of the gravest difficulties. I quite agree with the general principle that a subsidy on houses given either by the State or by the Municipality is unsound, and that the sooner we get away from it the better. It is evident to my mind that it will be a considerable time before we get there. The period will be much longer than my right hon. Friend allows. He allows in his Bill only until the end of October, 1925. We are now towards the end of April, 1923. He will be fortunate if he gets the Royal Assent to his Bill by the middle of June. In that case he will see the best months of the building season of this year disappear before anything is done. That is why I regret that the Bill was not introduced at an earlier stage, because his limit of about two years will be reduced practically to 18 months. That is too short a time in which to get the Scheme going on any scale, and I would request the right hon. Gentleman to extend the period, I will not say the
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  exact number of years for the moment, but by a considerable number of years, as otherwise he will get practically no results out of his proposed Scheme.
  A point on which I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman is the question of the limitation of the subsidy to a certain type of house. His argument really amounts to this, that private enterprise to-day is already beginning to supply what people call parlour houses, in ordinary parlance—what we used to know as type B house of a larger character. Owing to the popular outcry against the non-parlour house, the right hon. Gentleman has got his staff to work out for him a plan to get some kind of parlour into the kind of house which is proposed, but the kind of parlour that would be got into this house is not worth having. I think it would be a great mistake, because it would result in not having a good house of either one type or the other.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would like to explain that the illustration which I gave has not been devised by ingenious officials at the Ministry of Health. It came from an actual plan which was submitted by the London County Council and built by them.
  Sir A. MOND: That may be, but it was evidently devised by some ingenious person. For myself, I must confess that I am very sorry that such a plan has ever been passed. I think it will be making a great mistake to adopt it. There is a very strong feeling on this subject in all parts of the country. Those with whom I am associated are not generally hostile to this Bill. They have no desire to impede its passage on general grounds. They are anxious to get on with the Bill, and any Amendment brought forward by them in Committee will be designed to assist and not impede it. The hon. Member for Luton (Sir J. Hewett), who spoke last, and other hon. Members, feel in the same way. Is it necessary to refuse a subsidy to a local authority which chooses to build a certain number of parlour houses? I agree that a certain number of local authorities may not wish to build them at all. A certain number may wish to build them, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot seriously mean that he will pay no subsidies to any local authority which wishes in its housing scheme to introduce any houses with real adequate parlour

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  accommodation. He has had great experience of municipal housing schemes. He knows that if he were laying out an estate as chairman of a housing committee, he would want to build a certain number of houses of B type and a certain number of the other type.
  Why he cannot increase the dimensions to 950 or 1,000 feet and why he cannot give a subsidy for that type of house, I cannot understand. It is not compelling local authorities to build parlour houses, but it is not impeding the building of that type of houses for which in many parts of the country there is an enormous demand. In many of the country workmen will not live in houses without decent parlours, though in certain other parts they do not care so much about them. What the right hon. Gentleman is doing is to create almost insuperable difficulties for local authorities in many parts of the country. This is a very serious blot on his Bill which will compel many who have wished to support him to oppose him on this point. I hope sincerely and in all friendliness that before we come to a Division on this Bill the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the point and be able to indicate that, in the Committee stage, he will be prepared to make a concession which is not going to cost him much, if any, money and to which I can see no sound and reasonable objection. We do not wish it to be said that the Ministry of Health is forcing a lowering of the standard of housing. However costly or uneconomic Dr. Addison's scheme may have been, I have no doubt that it raised the standard of housing in this country. It introduced a new conception of what housing ought to be.
  Mr. JONES: You turned it down.
  Sir A. MOND: I did not turn it down. I carried it out at very much less expense; I built more houses under the Addison scheme because I managed to get the prices down. By the use of the little business ability which I have acquired, I managed to provide more houses for less money, and I helped as far as I could to increase the number of houses. But we do not want to lower the type. We do not want it said that the Government-assisted house is of a lower type than the houses which we have set
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  up. It ought to be the model of what houses should be. There is another point as to which I am very uneasy in my mind. The right hon. Gentleman was not so clear as I should wish as to the effect of giving subsidies to private builders. In my opinion, the giving of subsidies to private builders in connection with housing schemes is a most costly, unsatisfactory and inefficient system. The right hon. Gentleman's figure, 15 per cent., is probably accurate. I do not carry it in my memory, but that would be a very high percentage. The giving of a subsidy of £250 a house was not fulfilling the object which we wished to fulfil when it was used to provide chauffeurs with cottages and all kinds of amenities by people who could very well have done it for themselves. I found it very difficult to make regulations which gave us real control of what was being done.
  I am very much frightened if we allow local authorities under the Bill, with very little, control, to hand out lump sums of Government money to private builders in order to put up cottages. You may get a very poor class of cottage and in many cases you may get a considerable amount of hanky-panky, but, the point wants very careful investigation if not reconsideration. I do not like using Government money for subsidies enterprises in this way. I think that it is a dangerous precedent. Personally I would much sooner see this money given to local authorities for houses to be built by the local authorities and owned by them. I think that our local authorities which on the whole have considerable experience of houses will produce better results, and I will be a great deal happier in my mind if they have the whole control of handing out this money which they will receive than if it is dealt with in the manner suggested by the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has not made it altogether clear whether the local authority will be able to do this by the lump sum; whether they can capitalise the subsidy and give it as a, lump sum or by what method the final transaction between the local authority and the private builder will be carried out. Perhaps later on we may hear something of that part of the machinery because although I have carefully studied the Bill I have found it impossible to follow it in this particular matter.

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  The right hon. Gentleman's argument as to the demand for non-parlour houses seems to me to be a little fallacious. He adduces the demand for non-parlour houses in reference to some of the London schemes, but he ought to bear in mind that the charge of the London County Council for houses then was naturally higher than it would be now, as they could build houses more cheaply now because the prices have come down, and that people were asking for houses with inadequate accommodation then because the rents for parlour houses were too high. But I do not think that he can deduce from that that if you supply, as you ought to be able to do now, better houses for lower rents, people will not be anxious to take them and will not be able to pay the rent. That argument of the right hon. Gentleman is one which I think is subject to criticism.
  I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman is going to do something to assist public utility societies, especially those which were started during the War for the good of the State, which for one reason or another have not been the financial successes which they ought to have been. Their condition weighed very heavily on my mind when I was a Minister. I was always very anxious to help to put those who could be so put into a solvent condition. The money for many of those societies has been put up by workmen in small sums, and it is very desirable that they should be helped through merely temporary difficulties. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to get the Public Works Loan Commissioners, who are much concerned in this matter, to adopt a more generous attitude than I could induce them to take up. A good deal depends upon the attitude which the Public Works Loan Commissioners are prepared to take up. That applies especially to the smaller local authorities who are not in a position to float large loans for themselves on cheap money and are unable to obtain cheap credit. The right hon. Gentleman did not explain why he has limited the subsidy to a period of 20 years. I am not sure whether the difference between the figures I have in my mind, which were lower than his, may not be affected by the fact that I regarded the subsidy for the whole period of the loan, whereas he has limited it to 20 years. Perhaps I was a little
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  more generous than my right hon. Friend. At any rate, I would like to know why he has adopted the 20 years' period. I think it is a mistake. After 20 years the local authorities will have reached a time when increasing repairs and dilapidations will become a heavier burden. I feel sure that local authorities would prefer a smaller amount over a longer period. Although that would entail a longer burden on the Exchequer, it would not necessarily mean so much out of the revenue as does the proposal for a 20 years' subsidy. The lower you can make your charge on the Exchequer now, the better it will be, because the financial difficulties now are greater than they will be in years to come. I hope that the Minister of Health will consult the London County Council and other local authorities on the matter. It would be interesting, too, to have some figures to show how the deficits are calculated.
  There are in the Bill many points of detail and of drafting which require careful consideration. I take it that the figure of £6 is not a fixed figure, but an average figure on a sliding scale? If it is fixed it ought not to be, because the cost of building in London is much higher than the cost of building in the provinces, and more ought to be given for building in London and the big towns than for building in other places where the work can be done more cheaply. That is a point which the right hon. Gentleman ought to consider. I feel sure he will recognise that there is substance in it. With many of the points in the right hon. Gentleman's speech I am in complete accord. I am glad that he is continuing the slum work which I undertook when I was Minister of Health. The whole problem is not by any means as large as many people think. With a determined policy and a little encouragement, I see no reason why, in a relatively small number of years, the whole of the slum areas of this country, which have been a standing disgrace to our civilisation, should not be wiped out entirely. I am very glad that my right hon. Friend, who knows this problem very intimately, has definitely taken it in hand. There are powers under the Act of 1919 and the Act of 1920, and with the assistance to be obtained under the grant, if local authorities would move a little faster, we

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  could get on with this aspect of the housing problem better than we have been able to do in the past.
  I hope my right hon. Friend will not allow any two-bedroomed houses to be built. Such a house has its advocates, but it is a great mistake. No house with fewer than three bedrooms ought to get the Government subsidy. There is a tendency for a certain number of people who can afford better houses to be extraordinarily parsimonious about house accommodation. I hope that those people will not be encouraged by the erection of the two-bedroomed type of house. I never encouraged them when I was at the Ministry. Although, of course, local authorities have been given a freer hand than they were given under the Addison scheme, I hope my right hon. Friend intends to keep a sound supervision over any scheme for which he grants a subsidy. I see it stated that the proposal is to allow 20 houses to the acre, as against the 12 originally proposed. The jump from 12 to 20 is altogether too extreme; 12 was on the low side, but 20 is generally too high. I hope he will not allow schemes of that kind to go through until they have been examined by himself and by the competent staff at his disposal. Many local authorities to-day have surplus land at their disposal, with roads and sewers laid out. The sale or lease of that land to public utility societies would do a great deal to facilitate progress with housing schemes on an economic basis, with low rents. I was studying schemes of that kind when I gave up office. My recollection is that such schemes could be carried out without imposing any new charge on the Revenue.
  A proposal in the Bill of an original and bold character allows local authorities to finance building activity. Apparently, there is no limitation imposed as to the amount that can be spent in this manner. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend thinks that that is altogether a safe thing to do, or whether in Committee he will not think it necessary to introduce some kind of safeguard. As far as I can see, there is no limitation in the Bill which would prevent a small local authority from lending sums quite incommensurate with its financial position to a speculative
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  builder, who might be a bankrupt, and so land the ratepayers in very considerable difficulties. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman thinks he can deal with that matter administratively, without legislation, but, in view of the fact that this House has repeatedly endeavoured to keep some control over rates as well as over taxes, it would seem dangerous to pass a Bill which appears to hand a blank cheque to local authorities for the financing of building. What I have said are general observations which have occurred to me. There are many other points which require to be discussed. I would urge my right hon. Friend not to put difficulties in the way of those who are anxious for housing reform, and mainly the difficulty of the non-parlour house subsidy. Let him abandon the plea that you can get some kind of parlour within the dimensions of the House he has in view. That idea is really not worthy of him.
  Mr. JONES: Not room for a china dog.
  Sir A. MOND: Nor for a mug of beer. It is not worthy of my right hon. Friend's well-known zeal for housing reform. If before we divide he can himself, or through one of his colleagues, make a concession on this point, it will give satisfaction in all sections of the House, and I can assure him that I and my friends will then be very pleased not to divide against the Second Reading.
  7.0 P.M.
  Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: I share the last speaker's feeling of appreciation of the excellent statement which we have heard from the Minister of Health. I am rather disappointed in the speech of the last speaker in many respects. I recollect that but a few weeks ago he was the champion of private enterprise as against nationalisation, but, as I heard his speech to-day, what he was advocating and what he was endeavouring to impress on the Minister was that, at any rate, the greater proportion of housing in this country should be handed over to the local authorities. I do not share that view at all. If there has been one experience in the last few years more marked than another, it is that, while no doubt it is necessary to assist local authorities financially with schemes, yet they have not proved the most suitable bodies to carry out building works. I do

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  not criticise the local authorities for that. When you have building operations conducted by members of authorities which meet once a month, or of committees which, at the best, meet only once a week, no wonder there is delay and a great deal of red tape in connection with house building when it is entrusted to them. In fact, while this is a very excellent Bill in many respects, one of the great defects of it is that it leaves such a great deal to local authorities. All those matters which the Minister referred to as very excellent ones, such as bringing in building societies, remitting rates, and that sort of thing, are, in fact, entirely dependent upon the desire of the local authorities. No private builder can go in any part of the country and say, "I am going to put up this house; therefore, I am entitled to have a remission of rates, or to receive assistance." He has to wait; in fact, his building operations have to be dependent on whether the local authorities will, or will not, put this scheme into operation. I am very much afraid that a good many local authorities—perhaps, if you like, after the experience of the past three, four, or five years—will be very loath to begin building operations again.
  When I consider the financial portions of this scheme, I am the more dismayed at the prospect. The Minister of Health has explained some of his reasons for proposing a £6 subsidy. He said that a very good result of his suggestion was that people were criticising it from two aspects; that one lot of people were saying the amount was too small, and the other lot were saying it was too large. In fact, I observed an article by his predecessor, Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen, a few days ago, in which he stated that he supported this Bill because it was mainly his Bill, and that when he was at the Ministry he had been going, he hoped, to agree to this subsidy being a lesser sum. I remember when the right hon. Gentleman for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) was at the Ministry, he was considering a subsidy of £3 instead of £6. I recall that one large corporation—I think it was Leeds—was prepared to accept a subsidy of that much smaller amount. The difficulty of the situation is that while some corporations might be content to accept a lesser sum than £6, a good many, owing to their financial
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  difficulties, will not be able to operate, even with the £6 itself. As the Minister of Health stated, and as I gathered in reading the provisions, this is a fixed amount and not a sliding scale. The result may be that in those districts where houses are needed the most, it will be impossible for them to proceed on this basis; whilst in places where they are proceeding we shall be paying a much larger sum than is necessary. I hope the Minister of Health will consider that point very seriously, and that he will consider whether it is not possible, in some way or other, to ensure if a man is prepared to put up a house of a proper character and of proper dimensions, that he shall receive adequate State assistance without being dependent on the desire or resolution of the local authority.
  I share entirely the views of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea on the question of the limitation of the subsidy to the smaller type of house. The statement the Minister of Health made this afternoon, which interested me most, was his apology to the House, in which he said that he had never properly explained this matter, and that he ought to have said in this smaller type of house the parlour was always possible. I accept his statement, of course. I only say this, that I do not think he can get a single body of people who are interested in building, from the Land Union downwards, or upwards, however we may regard it, who will say that such a scheme is practicable or desirable. Very many theories and very many different reasons have been put forward by people who support the limitation of this subsidy, beside that stated this afternoon by the Minister of Health. A good many hon. Members will know, and will no doubt respect, the views of Mr. Edwin Evans, who is President of the London Property Owners' Association. This Bill of my right hon. Friend has given Mr. Evans great satisfaction, because the subsidy is limited to the lower type of house. I observe that he gave his reasons in support the other day, in what, I think, is a very significant statement. He said
  "What was going to stop private enterprise was the fact that local authorities were putting up a better class of house, under the cost at which private enterprise could compete."
  There is no doubt that it is the desire and the wish, quite properly, of Mr. Evans, in his business capacity, to see

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  the local authorities removed from this sphere, in order that private enterprise may put up these houses, with a parlour, and suitable for the lower middle classes They will then be in this position. They will be able to say to these people—who are just as much, in my judgment., in need of houses as any other class of the community—and other builders will also be able to say, "If you want this house, you will have to buy it; and, secondly, you will have to buy it at the price which we fix." That is a very unfair position in whch to put a very hard-pressed section of the community.
  I cannot follow my right hon. Friend, when he said that his policy, in confining the subsidy to the lower type of house, was that he was going to help those who needed assistance the most. He would be a very bold man who would to-day distinguish as to who needs assistance most in housing. I could give the right hon. Gentleman very many cases—I doubt if he requires them—of people, in the middle and lower middle class of this country, who are as badly pushed and are living in circumstances as dreadful as any other class of the community. I do not know how he is going to distinguish as to whose need is the most at the present time. He gave an illustration of a London County Council estate, and stated that a, very large number of houses were built there without parlours. I wish he had pursued his inquiries a little further. If he will pursue them a little further, he will find that at any rate 75 per cent. of the people who have gone into those small houses on the London County Council estate are not what you would call people from the slums. They are not even people from the working classes. It is the hard-pressed middle class, to-day, who are going into that type of house, of very necessity. As I understand the scheme of my right hon. Friend in this particular, he is going to lay down a new condition, and to say, "Nobody shall enter these new houses which we are going to erect unless they are able to prove that they are the hardest hit of the community." What Committee is to be set up to decide that? Who is going to decide that, out of a number of applicants, whether they come from the slums or from the hard-pressed middle-class home? It is an utter impossibility to lay down a condition of this kind.
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  Therefore, I join with hon. Members in all parts of the House, in pressing the right hon. Gentleman to modify this part of the Bill which, in my judgment, is a very great blot upon the Measure.
  I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's contention that private enterprise will look after this class of house; and I must point out that a very large number of people, all over the country, who have special opportunities of judging the situation, do not share that view. Take, for instance, the chairman of a very important housing committee like that of Bristol, where they have a very excellent committee. He says, about this proposition of my right hon. Friend:
  "The decision would have disastrous effects. Builders could not afford to erect a large number of houses for investment, and could only build to sell. In Bristol, the opinion is unanimous that not a single non-parlour house would be built by private enterprise."
  Go to Manchester, which, I believe, is to a large extent responsible for this suggested scheme, and for the arrangement which is being made. There, I think, the Lord Mayor, or Councillor Simon, who was the Lord Mayor and is a great authority on housing, has said, quite publicly, that it would be a great disaster to depart from the previous standard. The result of attempting to put up a house, with a parlour, 12 feet by 8 feet, can, I think, best be demonstrated by someone erecting such a parlour in Palace Yard and seeing how many hon. Members could actually sit inside it. I think decent and proper life requires better accommodation than that.
  I appeal to the Minister of Health to do something more than he has been doing in connection with rings and combines. He has come to a decision to continue the subsidy. That, I think, is a very grave decision, indeed. I do not differ from him in doing it, but undoubtedly a great deal of our difficulties during the last three years have been due to the giving of the subsidy. It has proved too much of a temptation to a very large number of people. I do not exempt from my indictment in that respect the builders or workers themselves, but when I hear statements from my hon. Friends opposite—quite sincere and to the point—I would remind them that in the cost of a house, whether it be

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  £300 or up to £1,100, it is no exaggeration to say that 75 per cent. of that sum goes in wages and into the labourers' pockets. While it is true that building materials and other things went to sky-high prices on account of this subsidy being paid, it is equally true that wages went up from 200 to 250 per cent. over pre-War prices. I do not grudge them. My complaint against labour during the old scheme was not that they ought not to receive a fair day's pay. My great regret was that they did not do a fair day's work.
  Mr. J. JONES: On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that an agreement was arrived at, during the time of the operation of the building scheme under the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond); that a wage rate was agreed upon, based on the cost of living; and that the workers' wages automatically went down, in consequence?
  Sir K. WOOD: I accept what the hon. Member says, although I cannot confirm it.
  Mr. JONES: It is a fact.
  Sir K. WOOD: It is very late in the day, after a scheme has been established for four years, to have to come to an agreement in the time of the tenure of my right. hon. Friend opposite. What was going on in the three or four years previous?
  Mr. JONES: Again, I rise to a point of Order—
  Mr. SPEAKER: These are not points of Order. The hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. Jones) has no right to interrupt. If he wants to correct some statements that have been made, he must ask leave of the hon. Member to intervene.
  Sir K. WOOD: I venture to say—because I do not think one can emphasise this aspect of the matter too much, and this is the place to say it, where it can be answered—that it is undoubtedly true, in the case of a house where only 300 bricks are laid per day, that it means to the worker who has to occupy it, as compared with a house upon which 600 bricks are laid each day, no less than an additional 1s. 6d. a week in his rent.
  Mr. JONES: Where is the house in which only 300 bricks per day were laid?
  Sir K. WOOD: I believe, if this point were thoroughly understood by the people engaged in this work, they would do a great deal more to increase the output—as I believe they are doing to-day. There is no doubt that the building trade and building workers occupy a privileged position. I do not grudge the workers their pay, but I say that, if not in building mansions in Park Lane, at least in erecting cottages for their fellow workers, it is up to them to do a great deal more than they did during the old schemes. I confirm all my right hon. Friend has said about the shortage of skilled men. It is undoubtedly true that at one time practically the whole of the housing schemes of this country were at a standstill owing to the want of skilled men. There is also this deplorable fact, that had there been more skilled men we would have been able to employ many more unskilled men. I hope the Minister of Health, before he pays away all this public money, will come to a clear understanding with the builders and the workers as to exactly what is going to happen. I do not see why the basis of apprenticeship in this trade should not be widened. An hon. Member opposite expressed the fear that building operations in this country were going to cease in two years. I know of no trade with greater prospects before it than the building trade at this time, and every opportunity should be given, on proper and reasonable terms, to widen the basis of apprenticeship, to get more skilled workers into the trade, and by that means provide employment for many more unskilled men.
  With regard to the Amendment before the House, I was very interested to observe its terms. I notice the very first phrase is to the effect that the reason why we should reject this Bill is because it ignores the difficulties of land purchase and transfer. There never was a greater mistake. The only thing that did not cause any difficulty at all in connection with the housing schemes which have been in operation during the last four or five years was the purchase and transfer of land. I do not think it is thoroughly understood that, on the average, the land upon which stand the cottages which were erected under the schemes did not cost a penny more than £18 each house. The only people, in my judgment, who have not profiteered under these schemes are the people who own

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  land, and for a very good reason, because if there were any dispute about the matter some independent person settled it.. There is no reason for rejecting the Bill on account of difficulties of land purchase and transfer; I only wish that the difficulties in connection with the building trade and building labour were as easy of solution as those in connection with the land. I notice that in the next phrase of the Amendment it is stated that this Bill fails to provide the means of securing a sufficient supply of building materials at reasonable prices. I hope hon. Members opposite have no idea of going back to that very dreadful institution which we had in operation during the recent years under the Director of Building Supplies, through whom the local authorities had to buy. I suppose one of the most interesting chapters in the history of Socialism might be written in connection with the Director of Building Supplies in days gone by, and I hope nothing will be done in the direction of reviving that system.
  Seeing my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) on the Front Opposition Bench, I am surprised that there is nothing in this Amendment to the effect that the only way to bring about building reform in this country is the nationalisation of building. I think the experiment has been very fairly tried in connection with the building operations of the last few years. I was hoping to hear something from the Mover or Seconder about the guild building scheme, because I remember how Member after Member questioned the harassed Minister of Health—whether Dr. Addison or my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea—as to whether he was going to give the National Building Guild a fair chance. If ever a guild had a fair chance the National Building Guild had. It had exceptional advantages offered to it and it was allowed to embark on a most tremendous scheme. After making an inquiry from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, I have elicited the fact that the National Building Guild of Manchester started and continued on its way—as my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley no doubt would desire it to do—with very little capital. It had a capital of £20 and it entered into contracts for many thousands of pounds,
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  if not millions, up and down the country. Its organisers said it would build from 15 per cent to 25 per cent. cheaper than the lump sum tenders of contractors and some of the workers thought that the guild particularly appealed to them, because under it they would be working for themselves and not for bosses.
  Some authorities went so far as to encourage this guild by saying, "You shall have nothing to do with buying the materials; you shall have no responsibility except to put up the houses, and we will give you proper remuneration for your wages and work." What has been the result? To-day the National Building Guild of Manchester is in liquidation. I believe, at one stage of their liquidation they appealed, I do not know with what success, to a large firm of building contractors in Glasgow to endeavour to come to their assistance, but in the result, as the Minister said in answer to me the other day, the local authorities have had to take over their contracts. That is an illuminating example of Socialist building operations, and if I had any complaint to make about the general body of my right hon. Friend's scheme, it would be that whilst he has made a very excellent speech in favour of private enterprise I doubt whether his Bill goes very far in that direction. However, time will show. No doubt as the Bill proceeds on its course my right hon. Friend will find, as other Ministers who sat in his place have found, that he will have more bricks thrown at his head than put into his houses. As far as I am concerned I support the Bill, believing that it can be made a better Bill in Committee. I appreciate very much the sympathetic spirit in which my right hon. Friend has presented it, and I have considerable confidence that, with his administrative ability and experience, those of us who desire to make it a better Bill will, in any case, have the opportunity of doing our best and by that means helping to solve to a small extent—because have no better anticipation than that—one of the greatest problems of to-day.
  Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: The Minister of Health has a great record as a municipal administrator and bears a name honoured in the annals of local government, and those who are associated with local government look to him for an example in their work. Therefore, it is the more disappointing that he should

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  have submitted to us this afternoon a Measure which, as he admitted, is but one step towards dealing with what is, perhaps, the most tragic human problem which we have before us to-day. The Minister began his speech by painting a grim picture of the need for houses. Those of us connected with local authorities know that you cannot possibly exaggerate the need, certainly not in the industrial areas, and I believe in the rural areas the shortage of houses is almost as badly felt. Yet, on the Minister's own admission, this Measure, so far as financial assistance is concerned, only covers the next two years, and is but a partial attempt to meet the situation. The House will agree with me that too much of our legislation in recent years has been of a temporary character, based on mere questions of expediency and lacking comprehensive and well thought out schemes from which could be developed a permanent policy. As the Minister well said, the question of housing is not merely a War problem. I do not wish to cross swords with the right hon. Gentleman as to the reason for the shortage before the War, but that shortage is admitted, and it has been aggravated tremendously by the Wartime cessation of building operations. I do not wish to dwell on the extent of the problem except so far as it is necessary to show that, in the opinion of many, the Minister's proposals are entirely inadequate.
  It will be remembered that a Committee was set up by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in 1912, and that Committee, after careful investigation, found that between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 men, women, and children in our urban districts were then living under slum conditions, and they estimated that at that time one-tenth of the population were living under over-crowded conditions. Since then, building operations were brought, to a standstill by the War. The Minister stated that since 1914 215,000 houses had been built, and that the figure of the normal building requirement of this country is between 75,000 and 80,000 houses a year. The period from the outbreak of War until to-day is nine years, and multiplying 80,000 by nine, we find, as regards the need of houses to replace wastage and to provide for the growing population, a gross
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  need in that period of 720,000 houses, against which, as the Minister tells us, only less than 215,000 have been supplied, leaving a necessity to-day for at least half-a-million houses. That is without having regard to slum replacements and the clearance of congested areas. Yet the Minister suggests a Measure which, so far as financial assistance to local authorities is concerned, only covers 2½ years. I recollect the Minister himself speaking on the 1919 Bill, and stating that in Birmingham alone 50,000 houses were then required. I wonder how many of the 50,000 have been supplied, and how many are likely to be supplied under this Bill during the next two years.
  I am sure he will admit that there will be a severe shortage even then, and that shortage has all along been with us creating ill-health and disease which, in the years to come, will entail a heavy extra burden on the taxes and the rates unless we can deal with it upon adequate lines. I regret that the Measure is so inadequate and that we still lack that statesmanlike and comprehensive scheme which is so necessary to deal with this crying need. Regarding the provisions of the Bill, I appeal to the Minister to grant more favourable terms to the local authorities. He told us that he had met the request of the local authorities. The local authorities, when they first approached him, asked for assistance over the whole period of the loan, that is to say, for 60 years, and they asked for £6 a house for that period. They had negotiations and conferences, and in the end the compromise was arrived at of £6 for 20 years.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is not quite correct, I think. The officers of my Department made an offer to the local authorities of £4 for 20 years. The local authorities made a counteroffer of £6 for 20 years, and I agreed to that suggestion.
  Mr. THOMSON: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation, but if he will turn back to the previous records, before he was Minister of Health, I think I am right in suggesting that he will find that the Municipal Association asked, in the first instance, for £6 for 60 years. That was, no doubt, before the right hon. Gentleman's reign as Minister of Health, but whatever may have been the compromise finally agreed upon, I am satisfied, from my knowledge of various

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  local authorities, that they are by no means content with this very limited grant for the period of 20 years. No one will suggest that the houses will be paid for in 20 years. In many cases the £6 per annum will not cover half the loss to the municipality during the 20 years for which it is paid, and therefore local authorities will be left with a very heavy charge for the remaining period over which the loans run. Even if the £6 were adequate, as it may be in certain districts, it is totally inadequate in other districts. In fact, the irony of the situation is this, that in large industrial areas, where the need is greatest, where they want to build the most houses on account of the shortage, and where the assessable value is lowest, there the £6 is totally inadequate, whereas in other districts, where comparatively few houses are required and where they have a high assessable value, there is no doubt that the £6 will cover, and possibly more than cover, their requirements.
  I suggest to the Minister that something can be done in Committee, without departing from a fixed sum, which has many advantages. I think, for reasons of economy, it is better than the old scheme, although less favourable to the municipalities; but if he could conceive of some method of regional areas, defining districts where building costs are higher and where the need is greater, and fix a fiat rate one for these areas, and another for those areas where the need is not so great and the costs are less, he might retain the advantages of economy which a fixed sum gives and, at the same time, remove some of those inequalities, which will hit very hardly those districts which most need assistance. We were told the other day that the Government had conceded a grant to rural districts because of the heavy rates in those areas. The heavy rates in the rural districts average in the £. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that in urban districts the rating is not 11s., but in many cases 20s. and over, and I submit that it is taxing the social consciousness of those local districts to the breaking point to expect them to add still further to their heavy rates in order to remove this social evil which is in existence in their midst.
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  Therefore, I hope that when we come into Committee this matter will be reconsidered, for, in spite of the two Amendments for the rejection of the Bill, which have been supported from different quarters of the House, I suggest that the need for houses is so great that it is desirable that the Bill should go to Committee at the earliest possible moment. Many of us agree with the criticisms that have been made as to the inadequacy of the Bill, and we seek to improve it, but at the same time the need is so tremendous that we cannot afford to wait any longer. It is true that the Government have delayed bringing it in, but it would be folly to reject this Bill, even if we could, because that would mean that the day when more houses were to be provided would be put off even further than it has been through the fault of the Government. I submit that the Bill can be amended in Committee. There is nothing vicious in the principle of the Bill that makes it past redemption. Even those who sit on this side of the House will agree that, if they have the power to reject, they also have the power in Committee to amend, on such lines as will make it a workable Measure, one which will give them houses at once, and much quicker than if we have to wait until that Socialistic system is established of which they dream, but which will not materialise in time to give the houses which are so badly needed to-day. It was refreshing to hear the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond), now sitting on this side of the House, putting forward arguments to the other side which some of us addressed to him only a few months ago, and which he had then rebutted somewhat skilfully.
  With regard to the parlours, that is a matter which comes in for criticism from all sides, but I approach it on this special ground, that it is very desirable that a locality should have freedom to work out its own salvation in its own way. We welcome this Bill in so far as it scraps to a large extent that bureaucracy and that control from Whitehall which during recent years have possibly somewhat hindered the development of housing in each district. The hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) suggested that local administration had not been a success, so far as the production of houses was concerned, and that a

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  local authority was bound to have much red tape and cause much delay; but I would submit that the reasons for delay were not too often with the local authority, but with those at Whitehall to whom they had to send plans and counter plans, from whom inspectors came down on every conceivable occasion, and it was that huge bureaucracy which strangled the developments which the local authorities desired to make. Therefore, I think it is a gain that in this Bill as little restriction and control from the bureaucracy at headquarters as possible will take place, and that it should be left to each locality to work out its own salvation in its own way. On those grounds, I appeal to the Minister to lease the locality the freedom to put up houses which will have a parlour, not of the miserable dimensions to which he referred, but that they should have the opportunity to go to 950, or 1,050 feet if need be, if a particular district required it, and that each district should satisfy their own needs in their own way. It would not necessarily place any further burden on the Exchequer, and, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would not be making any concession in finance.
  Reference has been made to the granting of a lump sum, but there I submit that the right hon. Gentleman is repeating one of the evil Sections of the previous Bill. The right hon. Member for West Swansea said his memory did not serve him sufficiently to contradict or challenge the estimate of 15 per cent. which the Minister said, in introducing the Bill, was the number of houses which were erected under the private builders' subsidy, which were not of the class intended. I happened to turn up the OFFICIAL REPORT and find the Debates on that question, and I see that the right hon. Member for West Swansea, speaking in this House on 21st July, 1921, stated that according to the records that he had in his Department, only about two-thirds had been used for working-class houses. He said:
  "Week-end bungalows, chauffeurs' cottages, and gamekeepers' houses were surely not meant to be paid for by subsidies from the taxpayer."—(OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st July, 1921; cols. 2481–2, Vol. 144.]
  I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that in re-inserting in this Bill the principle of a lump sum subsidy to private builders, there is a very great danger of the same
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  abuse of the expenditure of public money which occurred under the 1919 Act. Anyone connected with local government knows that in too many cases public money did not go for the benefit of those for whom it was intended, that in many cases the private builders, the jerry builders, pocketed a large part, if not the whole, of that sum, and I submit that the same thing will occur again. What check is there in the Bill? The Minister referred to Sub-section (2, b) of Clause 2 as a protection. That Sub-section states that the Minister has to be satisfied as to the need, but surely that gives no protection that the houses will go to the people who most need them. Of course, houses will not be built unless there is a need, but that is not to say that those particular houses will not in the future go to gamekeepers or to chauffeurs, or that seaside residences or country cottages will not be erected with this money. It is true, the limits of size possibly restrict that to an extent which was not possible before, but many people would be glad of a seaside cottage or a country bungalow as a secondary house, even under the limitations which the Minister has laid down, and what is there to prevent them building two together and, after a short time, knocking the intervening wall down, thus getting two subsidies and using that which has been provided out of public funds for their own enjoyment?
  I submit that there is a very great danger in making this grant to the private builder. By all means, encourage the man who wishes to build a house for himself, the owner-occupier, but that that can be done either under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, through public utility societies, or by a direct grant to the owner-occupier, without running the risks, which are very real, of an abuse of public money. Supposing you make this grant of a capital sum of £75 or £78 to anybody who says he will put up a cottage of these particular dimensions, when it is put up, to whom is he going to sell it? There are no conditions, no restrictions, and he can sell it to whom he likes. He will sell it, of course, to the highest bidder, and surely that will be the man, not who has necessarily the largest family, but the man who possibly had the good fortune, or otherwise, not to go overseas, but who stayed at home, getting higher wages, and saved money

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  The poor fellow who went overseas at 1s or 1s. 6d. a day saved nothing, has not got a house, and has no chance of competing against his more fortunate mate, who has money saved and can outbid him in the demand for a house. There is no protection whatever, and those houses will go to the people who need them most. They may not go to the man with the largest family, and yet it is that man who requires the greatest assistance, and I submit that the Minister should reconsider this matter, because there will be a very real danger of public money being used, not for the benefit of those for whom it was intended, but of putting extra profit into the pockets of those who are merely speculating in house building.
  I hope the Minister, with his great experience of municipal effort, will encourage the municipalities rather than seek to encourage private enterprise, and that his influence will be thrown on the side of the development of a higher standard of houses than we have had in the past. He referred to what happened before 1909 and how the private builder, without the aid of the municipalities, had erected the bulk of the houses, but what houses were they? Are we really proud of the great majority of the houses put up for the working classes prior to 1909, with 30, 40, and sometimes 45 houses crowded to the acre, miserable brick boxes with slate lids on, in dull, mean, sordid surroundings? That was the product of the private builder before 1909, and we do not want to go back to those days. With all its faults, possibly of extravagance, the 1919 Act did set a higher standard, a vision of something better, of houses not crowded together, not in sordid conditions, but with breathing space, and I hope it will be stipulated that not more than 12 houses per acre shall be erected out of subsidised funds, and that we shall insist that there shall be a bathroom in every house in industrial areas, and, if possible, not less than three bedrooms. We do not want to go back to the bad days of 1909; our people demand and require something better, and what we should gain in better health and more contented people, would more than repay the cost to the State for the time being. The right hon. Gentleman has a great record in municipal administration. He can make his name even greater still as the Minister of
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  Health who had vision to see what the people required, and gave them homes worthy of the name.
  Sir SAMUEL CHAPMAN: The small and select band of Unionist Members for Scotland have not, I think, been very prominent in recent discussions. [An HON. MEMBER: "We do not get a chance!"] At all events, our friends on the other side of the House monopolise most of the opportunities. I only want to say a few words with regard to the practical side of this question. I must, however, protest against some of the assertions which were made by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), when he said, with a wave of his hand, which he often extends over these benches, that we have no sympathy on this question, and I was horrified to hear that the right hon. Gentleman who has introduced this Bill has also no sympathy. That is both unjust and ungenerous, and, coming from gentlemen, presumably of liberal minds, I do think it is anything but right judgment on their part. We on this side for generations have been keen on housing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, long before there were Labour Members in this House, and long before the franchise was extended which enabled them to come here. I myself had some slight acquaintance with that greatest philanthropist of all times, the great Earl of Shaftesbury, who was a Tory, a Member of the Tory party, and who was the great leader in the reform of housing long before hon. Gentlemen opposite were heard of. I do not wish to introduce any matters of controversy, but surely when charges are made against us, I am right in refuting such a charge as that, and asking hon. Members, whom we know in private to be most excellent and fair-minded Gentlemen, not to make assertions such as we have heard this afternoon which cannot be substantiated. I happen to have the honour to represent, for the time being, probably the best-housed constituency in Scotland, the South Division of Edinburgh, and I make it my duty to talk individually and collectively to large numbers of my constituents. When I hear such things as I heard from the hon. Member opposite, that we have no sympathy, I can tell him that those people who are in excellent circumstances in the South Division of Edinburgh would be only too delighted to

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  back up the right hon. Gentleman who has introduced this Bill, even if it means more money out of their pockets, to remove those horrors which we know exist in Glasgow and to a lesser extent in Edinburgh. It is our duty to do what we can to put those things right, and I for one will back up the right hon. Gentleman, and so will the constituents I have the honour to represent, even in providing more funds, and to make further sacrifices to put this matter right, or try to improve it.
  It is a question of finance. It is very easy for hon. Gentlemen on the other side to propound schemes. We can all do that, and should be delighted to do it. I could not talk like my hon. Friends opposite, but I could point out the horrors of Glasgow. I have not, thank God, lived in them, but I have been in the slums. I have been in the slums of London. Nearly 40 years ago I walked through Seven Dials with Lord Shaftesbury. I knew Gray's Inn Road before it was improved, and taught as a boy in the Thieves' Kitchen as a teacher of Lord Shaftesbury. I for one would be only too delighted to support any scheme which would at once sweep out these things. But, as I say, it is a question of finance. Hon. Members opposite do not worry about this, but somebody has to worry about finance. I was downstairs just now with some citizens of Glasgow who are concerned about education. I do not know how many hundreds of thousands they want for education in the city of Glasgow. And so it goes on. You cannot provide for everything in the same year. You must do what is reasonable and practicable, and the right hon. Gentleman in this Bill is doing what is reasonable and practicable. I shall support him through thick and thin, and I shall be delighted to support him if he wishes to strengthen the Measure in Committee.
  I made a few remarks on this question at the opening of the present Parliament, and ventured to suggest that that Act, which I remember so well, which the father of the right hon. Gentleman introduced into this House, might be improved and extended, in order that those who wished to build houses should have advances made to them. That statement only took two minutes to make, but within less than a week, it brought me over 500 letters from all parts of the
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  country, Scotland and England. One of the letters came from the County of Lanark, from a very eminent public servant who, unfortunately, passed away a few weeks ago, and who thoroughly understood the housing question in Scotland. He said:
  "The suggestion which you have made will, of course, not solve the housing problem, but will interest people immensely in Scotland, and will go some way towards solving that great problem."
  That was written to me by Sir Thomas Munro, Clerk of the County of Lanark. My hon. Friend opposite said we should soon be in the grip of the moneylenders, and I think he asserted that money could not be obtained under 6 per cent.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: Six per cent. during the War. I suggested 5 per cent. now.
  Sir S. CHAPMAN: In the County of Lanark they can borrow at a great deal less.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: On housing?
  Sir S. CHAPMAN: Yes. I hold in my hand documents which were sent to me by Sir Thomas Munro to keep me au fait with what was going on in the County of Lanark. The finance committee of the County of Lanark have already schemes in hand which they can put into operation the moment this Bill becomes an Act in regard to the acquisition of small dwellings. I have here all the details which are already prepared, and I believe they are operating under these tables. Sir Thomas Munro wrote to me on the 7th March that at a meeting of his finance committee that day they had agreed that they should make loans—not borrow money—at the rate of 4½ per cent. interest, and those terms might be improved on later if the financial situation altered. They are prepared to lend money themselves at 4½ per cent. My hon. Friend opposite says it cannot be borrowed at 5 per cent. If he would like to know, the City of Edinburgh at this moment can borrow as much money as they want at 4 per cent., and I was told by a financial authority that they believe if they had a new scheme on hand they could borrow as much money as they wanted for 3½ per cent. [An HON. MEMBER: "For how long?"] For as long as they want, and for as large an amount as they want. The truth of the

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  matter is that local authorities can borrow money a good deal cheaper than the imperial authority can. I do not know how it is, but local authorities all the time, and every time, can get money from their own locality at percentages cheaper than the imperial authority can borrow it. And it will interest my hon. Friend to know that this scheme on which they are prepared to lend money at 4½ per cent. has been drawn up with great care, and I have the papers in my hand with regard to the practical working of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act, extended as the right hon. Gentleman proposes to extend it. I ventured to suggest to Sir Thomas Munro that the proper way to deal with this question was this. When we are young, we like to have a life insurance policy at a low premium to be paid at 55, but as we get on in life, we think that we will have another £100 or £1,000, and make 15 or 12 payments, as the case may be. In the same way, I think the payments under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act should be provided for, say, 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. I have the tables here, and will tell the House how they work out. They work out a great deal cheaper per annum than was anticipated by the hon. Member who moved this Amendment. Say a house cost £600—I will take the highest figure—this 4½ per cent. includes sinking fund.
  8.0 P.M.
  It is the greatest scheme that was ever introduced and the Labour party will not have the credit of introducing it. For a house which costs £600 a 10 years' premium, including a sinking fund of 4½ per cent., comes to £75 per annum; for 15 years, £55 per annum; for 20 years, £45 per annum; for 25 years, £40 per annum; and for 30 years, £36 per annum. That is to say, a man could go to a local authority and he could order through the local authority a house to be built by his own architect if he wished, and he could get the money advanced to him. He will begin to pay £36 a year, which will include rent and sinking fund. Every year he comes nearer and nearer to being the absolute owner, and at the end of 30 years he is the owner of the property. I was told by Sir Thomas Munro that had that scheme been in operation in the county
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  of Lanark during the last 25 years, thousands of the miners of Lanarkshire would have now been the owners of their houses. The hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) spoke about Cowdenbeath. I know Cowdenbeath very well indeed. There are many old houses there, but there are many very new houses, and in some respects and in some streets they are model houses. I know two miners who built houses there within the last four years.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: Some of them are splitting from top to bottom.
  Sir S. CHAPMAN: The houses I refer to were built by two miners, and the hon. Gentleman would be delighted to live in them; I know I would. They are built of stone. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to extend his knowledge of Scotland, and if he will come with me, we will go through Cowdenbeath, and we will see the houses there. Please do not assume that everything is as dismal as the hon Member for Shettleston says. There are very many bright spots in all the villages, just as there are many black spots. I conclude as I started, but I do assure him we are deeply in sympathy with those on the opposite benches when we talk about the terrible housing conditions. We do not carry our hearts on our sleeves perhaps in the same way as hon. Gentlemen opposite, but we do wish to unite with these hon. Gentlemen in wiping out this great blot on the social conditions of our country and doing something to better the social conditions of our people.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I am sorry the Minister for Health has gone, but probably he will be back in his place before I finish. I am very sorry I am not able to congratulate him on the Bill he has introduced, because I have been told by many of my friends on this side of the House that the Minister of Health whom I would have to deal with was the best Minister of Health we have yet evolved. I can assure you that it was a sad blow to me to listen to his speech, which was a complete shock to me. I do not want any sympathy, and the class I represent do not want any of your sympathy. What we want and what we will have is housing. We are not going to have these rabbit hutches. I ask the Minister of Health why should he have one type of house for himself, and

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  require another type for my class? Those who talk about being in sympathy with us and of their good feelings and who want to assure us of their good fellowship and all the rest of the twaddle, have now a good chance to put their sympathy into practice. Here is a golden opportunity for the Minister of Health who has come here with a great reputation for administration of municipal affairs, and he was supposed to be able to devise ways and means whereby we would be able to get round this knotty problem, the housing question. This, in my opinion, is the most serious problem that faces Britain to-day. Our housing conditions are a standing disgrace. The houses of our people, and the house I live in are a standing disgrace. Talk about parlour houses! I never had a parlour in my life. We were never able to afford one. In my own case we have three apartments, and I am considered well off as a working engineer. We have three apartments, with seven in the family. I have four sons who are as big as myself, some of them are bigger. I have two daughters and one smaller boy. We have not got sleeping accommodation for them and we cannot get it. Those are the conditions that prevail, and no amount of sophistry and no amount of figuring about whether it will take £1,000,000 or £10,000,000 to deal with it will get away from the fact that the home human life of our people is the backbone of the British Empire. You are busy sapping at that foundation. The homes of our people are a standing disgrace. Mr. Speaker, when you intervened to protect the Minister when he was insulting my class what was he talking about? He said a parlour 12 feet by 8 feet was big enough to court in. Do you think I was to sit calmly in my seat and listen to my class being insulted in that fashion. Let me tell you the working class know how to court and the individual who spoke does not. I recommend the Front Bench and the Government to read the national bard of my country, Robert Burns, in "The Cotter's Saturday Night," and there they will get an insight into how Scotsmen court. There is nothing to be ashamed of. It does not require to be in a parlour. We never had parlours to court in. We court beneath—
  "the white hawthorn that scents the evening gale."
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  Listen to the words of James Hogg, the Ettrick Shepherd—
  "It's no' beneath the coronet,
  Nor yet beneath the crown—
  'Tis no' on beds of velvet,
  Nor yet on beds o' down;
  'Tis beneath a spreadin' birk
  In a doll withoot a name
  Wi' a bonnie smilin' lassie
  When the kye comes hame."
  Is there any wonder that I lose my temper when I hear the references which are made to my class? Then we had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) to-night again. He told us in his speech that we should wait until the Bill goes to Committee. For audacity there is nothing in this House to equal him. I was on the Rent Restrictions Act Committee with him. We sat nine times and he only put in one appearance. There is a hearty, intelligent chiel for you! He would do a lot in Committee. In Committee, until we arrived on the scene, there was no publicity for it, but like everything else we have changed all that. There was a good deal of publicity on the Rent Restrictions Bill Committee, and of course the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea, had he known there was to be so much publicity, would have put in a better attendance. You would have thought, to have heard him delivering himself to-night, that he had never in his time had an opportunity of putting his high ideals, which it is so easy to pronounce but so difficult to put into operation—but he had a glorious opportunity of putting those ideals into operation. Did he do it? He certainly did not, but he displaced a man—Dr. Addison—whose heart I believe this House broke.
  That is my firm conviction. Dr. Addison, when Minister of Health—an English gentleman of the type we read about but very seldom see—had high ideals, which he put into operation. He arrived on the scene at the crucial moment, at the psychological moment when those who sat on the opposite Benches were afraid to crush the working class any further, and therefore they were prepared to placate the discontent that was abroad at the time. So Addison was allowed to proceed until those who dominated the Government of this country should recognise that Dr. Addison was a menace to the big

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  financiers of Britain. That was Dr. Addison, the man who was responsible for putting on the Statute Book that no houses of less than three apartments should be built in Scotland. Prior to that, one apartment was good enough for a Scotsman. Yet you wonder, Sir, that I get angry? One apartment was good enough for a Scotsman, while you had two apartments for a pig. Then you wonder at me losing my temper! It is a wonder that I do not make some individuals lose their lives. The Attorney-General, who sits opposite, shakes his head. I am making a serious charge. The truth of it was brought out in the Robing Room at the Sankey Coal Commission. The statement was made and proved conclusively: a pig in this country has to have two apartments, while one apartment is good enough for the working classes. Dr. Addison would have none of that. He wanted a three-apartment house and enacted that nothing less should be built in Scotland.
  The men who had lived for years in tented fields were just coming back at the time from the War, and the right hon. Gentleman for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—I wish he was here now—was in power at the time. He recognised quite well that it would be dangerous not to handle these men carefully; so he went out and made a great declaration that he was going to make this land a land fit for heroes to live in. But it has always been that. It neither required a Welshman nor an Englishman to make our land fit for heroes. If we could only be allowed to live in it. We are busy at the moment, however, driving the men across the wild Atlantic. Those behind the Government in Dr. Addison's day recognised perfectly well that this man was a menace to them because a three-apartment house in Scotland meant the raising of the standard of life of the working-classes of Scotland. A three-apartment house meant a three-apartment dress, a three-apartment educational system, and those behind knew that meant the end of the capitalist system. We recognise perfectly well—and I make no bones about it—that it is not possible to give us in Scotland a three-apartment standard of living as against the single apartment that we have, and for the capital system to continue. We know that those who hold
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  Britain by the throat are holding up our country to ransom at the moment, that is to say, the individuals who claim that we owe them £8,600,000,000 of war debt—which means we have got to pay them £1,000,000 per day as a first charge on the produce of the workers of the country—£1,000,000 a day for interest. Those who recognise the facts recognise that if Scotland were to get a three-apartment standard of living it would be impossible then to pay £1,000,000 per day.
  What, therefore, did they do? They went to the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Premier and they told him: "You have got to get rid of Dr. Addison; that man has got to go." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs replied: "No, no; he is a very able man." Unfortunately, however, pressure was brought to bear on him, and he at last agreed to dispense with Dr. Addison. Yet he made him Minister without Portfolio. But, no fear, those wolves, those individuals, who live on the flesh and blood of the working classes, they are not like the working classes; they never forgive. They are vindictive. They pursued Dr. Addison, and told the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Premier that he had to sack him, and Dr. Addison had to leave the Government. He was a great and a noble man. He had to go. But I should have liked him to have had the courage to come out of the Cabinet at the time, and we of the Labour party would have been with him, even if others had not. We know all that is coining. Therefore, I only rise to say that the day is past when hon. Gentlemen opposite can speak to us with their tongues on their cheeks. We are going to keep fresh in the memories of our people these various things—although the working people are generous to the last degree. They always forgive. That is part and parcel of their nature. It is our duty as members of the Labour party, however, to keep these matters fresh in their memory. Why? When we stood in 1918 at the election, the then Prime Minister wired down to Glasgow that there would be no increase in the rents of the houses. What happened? Immediately the Government came in, they increased the rents of those wretched hovels, and there are 13,000 houses in Glasgow declared, not by the Socialists, but by the sanitary authorities, to be unfit for habitation. They raised the rents of these houses. They they come

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  forward, after all these years, after all the suffering, and when the people of this country do not know what to do to make both ends meet.
  Starvation is rampant in the land, and at the same time there never was so much food in Britain as there is to-day. There is absolutely a shortage of nothing except houses, and they do not come from Ger many or Russia. We have the material for houses in this country, and our people never were so competent as they are to-day to build them. We would not be worthy of our sires if we were not better than our sires. Our people are more competent than ever to build houses, and who stands between us? Only the Government. If they were in earnest about building houses they would organise the building of houses just as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs organised the manufacture of munitions during the War at a time when our country was faced with a great military danger. At a time when we were in a panic and when we feared that the Germans might become the rulers of this country, then we saw to it that there should be plenty of munitions.
  Why should the Government not adopt the same policy in regard to housing? I hold that the housing problem is as grave a question as was the German menace, and the right hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite know that every word I am saying is true Those who do not know, if they would only consult the medical faculty in any of our big industrial centres throughout the island of Great Britain, what would they find? That the medical faculty fear the coming summer. Those who are responsible for the health of the people fear the incoming summer because of the pestilence that may arise owing to inadequate accommodation for the people. That goes on, and yet we are expected to sit quite calmly, and we are twitted by the Minister of Health about asking for a parlour 12 feet by 8 feet. The right hon. Gentleman gave us the size of this parlour, and he had the brazen audacity to make that statement in cold blood. Supposing it had been a Zulu or a wild man, who had never been near any kind of civilisation, he would have known just as much about the people that he was discussing in regard to their manner of life, their symptoms, and their ideals as
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  the right hon. Gentleman who made that statement.
  The Minister of Health represents that these houses are intended for a certain class. That is my class, and I assure the House by any system they like to introduce that I am as good as the right hon. Gentleman on anything he likes to take. I am as good mentally or physically, and I make that challenge to the entire class represented by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I say that we are not going to take this lying down any longer from the Government of this country, and they are not going to treat the working classes in this fashion any more, because that day has passed. We stand here representing the working classes on an equal footing with all the right hon. Gentlemen and hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite, and they will have to remember that fact when dealing with housing. Who are the people that they are going to build those houses for Are they the working classes? They propose to give £6 a year per house for 20 years. In my own constituency in Clydebank and Dumbarton that is no use, for we want nothing less than £12, and we want it for 60 years, which is the life of the house, and that is what we should get. We are not asking for anything but our own rights. We do not want any of your sympathy nor even your kind looks. We want none of your kindness. There has been too much of this business about kindness and brotherly love. There is no brotherly love here. Believe me there is no man living who would be better pleased than I would be if I could believe that there was brotherly love.
  "Behold how good a thing it is
  And how becoming well,
  Together such as brethren are,
  In unity to dwell."
  Can there be any unity or brotherly love between the man who cannot get shelter and the man who has two or three hundred apartments in a house? Where is the brotherly love? Those individuals who own all those apartments have time and again had the power to rectify that state of things. They have been in power, you have had the Salisburys and the Cecils in power for over one hundred years, and they have had every opportunity of reconstructing society. Have they reconstructed it? Where are the houses that they have built? Where are

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  the cities that they have built? Who is responsible for the slums? Who is responsible for the single-apartment houses? Is it the Labour party? Are we responsible for those awful dens that people are condemned to live in, yea, to die in—where every function in life has to be performed in a single apartment? Who is responsible for that? Was it not the great men of Britain, the men who claimed to be the ruling class of this country? I would gladly forgive them had they not known how to build better houses for my people. Had they not known of a better system of housing than the wretched housing accommodation that the great mass of my people are condemned to live in, I would have forgiven them; but they knew of better houses, because they got better houses built for themselves, which is absolute proof, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is no brotherly love. It is cant and hypocrisy which is at the root of the British Empire at the moment. The whole of their actions are governed by cant and hypocrisy, and the sooner the ruling class of this country recognise that fact the better it will be for Britain, because I believe that, unless they recognise that, Britain is doomed, and there is no road that they will go more surely down to doom than the road of bad housing of the people. As I have already said, it is the homes of the people that we are discussing here to-night, and it has flashed over my mind at the moment that even the King was brought into the discussion when the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was the Prime Minister. The right hon. Member said that they had only trifled with the housing conditions of the people, but they were going to set about building houses now. Glasgow was to get 52,000 houses—we have not got 5,000 yet—and the King at that time said that it was not houses that we were going to build but—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs quoted the opinion of His Majesty the King, he was out of order, and the hon. Member would equally be out of order in quoting His Majesty's opinions. They are not allowed, under a very ancient rule, to be discussed in this House.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Am I not allowed in this House to quote a statement which His Majesty the King made?
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No; an hon. Member is not allowed to do so. It is a very ancient rule that the opinions or words of His Majesty must not be introduced into our Debates.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I will obey your ruling, but I will see to it that I use all the influence I have to have that rule turned down. We are discussing here to-day the housing of the working classes. We have tens of thousands of them all over the country that are desperate to get a home, there are no homes for them, and the Government come forward with this Bill. It is produced by an individual who is supposed to be the man of the moment. They have discovered someone who is going to be able to lead this Government out of the desert of Sinai and right into the plains of Palestine. [An HON. MEMBER: "Dead Sea fruit!"] Yes, there is no doubt about that. I am sorry that the Minister is not in his place. I would have liked him to hear me, because I intended to put him through it in no uncertain fashion. Still, he is a man, and, that being the case, I want to appeal to him still in the hope that he will go over this Bill carefully and see if it is not yet possible for him to grapple with this great problem as only a great man can grapple with it. I say to him that he has a glorious opportunity to make a name for himself, a name that will go down to history, a name more creditable than that of his father, a name that will be revered by the working people of this country. If he would grapple with this as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon, when he was Minister of Munitions, grappled with munitions in this country, then he would make a name for himself. I suggest to him that he grapple with this, because it is a serious question, and if it is not grappled with in that drastic fashion, ensuring that every father and every mother and every family in this country will have a home, unless the Government have that as their guiding idea, as the fundamental idea underlying all their actions, you can take it from me that it is the end of the Tory Government, or any other Government that stands betwixt the people and better houses.
  Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR: Unlike the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir S. Chapman), who claims to represent the best housed constituency in Scotland, I represented for eight years one of the worst housed constituencies in the North-Eastern Division of Lanarkshire, where I learnt how appalling the housing conditions were, and I am not surprised at all that hon. Members who sit in this quarter of the House should feel so deeply upon this question of housing. I am sure, too, that we ought to do justice to the hon. Member for South Edinburgh and others on the other side of the House, although they may not agree with us in going as far as we would desire, when they say that they themselves are anxious to see something done. But the Bill is altogether inadequate to meet the situation which exists to-day. I rise very specially to draw attention to a gross injustice, I go so far as to say a slight upon the people of Scotland, through the inclusion of Scotland in a, Measure which is concerned mainly with the general housing conditions in England and Wales, especially in view of the widely differing needs and conditions in Scotland and the separate legislation which has been provided under the Housing and Town Planning (Scotland) Act, 1919, and subsequent Statutes. There is a very strong and rising tide of indignation with regard to the treatment which Scotland has been accorded under this Bill, and there will be a very strong protest made not only in the country but on these benches and other places. I hope we shall have Scottish Members united in this matter as the representations which come to us come from all sections and all political parties. We have a solid body of opinion united in the protest which is made to-day against Scotland being included in this Bill instead of receiving separate treatment. That body of opinion includes such representative bodies as the Convention of Royal Burghs, a non-political body representing some of the leading experts in housing and other municipal matters. We have the Scottish Housing and Town Planning Committee, the Special Housing Committee appointed also to advise the Scottish Office with regard to housing matters, the local authorities in Scotland and the housing experts who have gone into the matter. We have received to-day a telegram from a large gathering of the
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  larger Scottish local authorities held at Dundee, at which it was unanimously agreed that a separate housing Bill is necessary for Scotland. We have, last but not least, the long-suffering body of rate-payers, who are finding that the burden which it is proposed to cast upon them under this Bill will be altogether intolerable, and who protest against its provisions.
  I am glad to think that in this matter I can claim the sympathy and the support of the Under-Secretary of Health for Scotland, and the Secretary for Scotland himself, because it has already been made abundantly clear that in this matter the Scottish Office have committed themselves definitely to the view that Scotland deserves and ought to have received separate treatment, and that the case was made out for it. The Under-Secretary for Health paid a visit to Edinburgh on 23rd March at which he made some very important announcements on behalf of the Government. This is what he said with regard to the situation:
  "The views on the future housing policy of the Government in Scotland which he intended to put forward were the views the Secretary for Scotland and he had been able to form as the result of many months consideration of this problem and consultation with all the authorities at their disposal both building experts, municipal experts and others. … In essence their claim was for differential treatment in flavour of Scotland and the more strongly they could enable to put this claim the better he would be pleased."
  He went on to indicate in a very able speech the grounds upon which that differential treatment should be accorded to Scotland. He referred particularly to the difference in the cost of building. He referred to the sum of £23 per house, which was due to the use of sashing and felt for the roofs and rough casting and plastering the walls of the houses and the sculleries.
  "It might, he thought, be claimed that the Scottish climate demanded these three items."
  He went on to refer to another very important question which affords a very clear line of differentiation with regard to the Scottish case, and that was the difference in the rating provisions in Scotland, where you have a heavy burden already thrown upon the owner of property which does not attach to ownership of property in England. He put the

  383
  figure, taking the rates at 4s. per £1 of gross rental, at 20 per cent. of the rent which fell to be paid by way of rates, and which was the additional burden thrown upon owners of house property which was not felt in England. He concluded by saying:
  "The figures showed a justification—and he was speaking as Under-Secretary for Health—for an increase of £1 a house over England."
  It is clear that opinion in Scotland was very satisfied by the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech, because the following day one of the principal Scottish newspapers the "Scotsman," a leading article indicated that it was so far satisfactory that the Scottish Office had acceded to the principle of differentiation between the two countries, although it remained to be seen whether Scottish local authorities would regard the figure named as adequate. It did not take very much time, however, to ascertain what the feelings of the local authorities were, because even on the occasion when the hon. and gallant Gentleman addressed the members of the Conservative Club in Edinburgh, on which occasion there were some housing experts also present, he received an indication of the strong volume of opinion in favour of a larger subsidy than even the which was voiced on that occasion. But while I feel sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman will recognise that in this matter there is a strong claim put forward, I appeal to him to see that that claim is made good. The position to-day, in a word, is this. The Scottish Office themselves recognise that the case for differentiation has been made out but they have been turned down by the Cabinet and we are in this position, that Scotland is going to suffer in consequence because the Cabinet refuses to give effect to the wishes of the people of Scotland.
  I should like to make the points in regard to the case for differentiation. We go back to the Report of the Royal Housing Commission, which reported in 1917, and made it abundantly clear that in Scotland there was a very much more serious condition than existed at that time in regard to housing needs than in England. The Royal Commission established that there were 113,000 uninhabitable houses in Scotland, 114,560 new houses were
  384
  required to raise the standard and to avoid overcrowding, and that there was a deplorable condition in the rural district, where some 8,000 new houses were required for agricultural workers, bringing up the total to 235,990 new houses which were required to satisfy the situation. We heard to-day some figures with regard to overcrowding in London. We were told, I think, that 53 per cent. of the population lived in one to three-roomed houses. In Scotland the position is very much more serious. There 47·9 per cant. of the population live in houses of one and two rooms, as compared with 7·1 per cent., the corresponding figure for England. We have also to keep in view that in Scotland 45 Per cent. live in houses where there is less than one room to each three persons. The situation in Scotland in 1919 was recognised to be very serious, and schemes were presented by the Scottish local authorities for the erection of 130,000 houses. The Government even then recognised the necessity for differentiating between Scotland and England, because they provided that in the case of Scotland, to enable us to make up lee-way and as building was somewhat slower in that country, we should have the period of the subsidy extended for two years longer, namely, until August, 1924, thus recognising that our needs required special treatment. Then we had the halt that was called by the Government in July, 1921, without any Parliamentary sanction at that time and involving a very gross breach of faith with the local authorities, who had been building upon the assumption that they were to have a continuation of the arrangement under which they were only to be liable for a 4/5ths of a penny rate, the Government being responsible for the balance. What happened then was that an immense number of schemes were suddenly started. In my own division we have had only about half the number of houses built that were proposed to be built under the original schemes of the 1919 Act, and if you take Scotland as a whole, it will be seen from the reply given by the Under-Secretary for Health, that 22,530 houses had been built or authorised to be built, leaving still a shortage of some 3,000 houses to make good even the limited provision made at that time, although that represented only a very small fraction of

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  the needs of the country and of the 130,000 houses that were asked for. We maintain that in Scotland we have not received anything like the equivalent which has been given to England in regard to the number of houses which were actually supplied, in proportion even to the requirements of both countries, and that that shortage ought to be made good, and that we ought to be put at once in the same position as England before any alteration in the original scheme is proposed to be carried into effect.
  Another point of differentiation which is of great importance is the difference in the Scottish building standards over those of England. We have in the past always had a higher building standard in regard to floor space, the height and thickness of the walls and the roof, and recognition was given to that fact in the original schemes under the 1919 Act, where a distinct differentiation in regard to the Scottish standard was admitted. Owing to climatic and other conditions, the cost in the past of erecting Scottish houses has been substantially more than that in England. The figures which the local authorities brought out from their experience show that the difference is from £114 to £122 per house in Scotland as compared with England. It is true, as stated by the Under-Secretary for the Board of Health, that that figure does not represent the cost of an exactly corresponding class of house, of precisely the same type, as in England, but I ask, are we in Scotland to have all our standards subordinated to an inferior English standard?
  We ask that we shall be put in a position of maintaining the standard which our own Scottish local authorities in the past have insisted upon to meet the needs of the Scottish people and the conditions under which they live. Although they do not admit the figure of £122 difference, the officials of the Scottish Board of Health have admitted that there is a difference per house which is very substantial. They have insisted upon comparing houses of the A 3 English type with a Scottish house built on exactly the same footing, and they have brought out the difference of the additional cost involved in building the Scottish house at £23. That standard we do not accept for Scotland. That is a standard which is taken by comparing an English house with
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  an exactly similar type of house in Scotland. We are anxious that the standard should be that of comparing the Scottish type of house which is required for Scotland with a house of the same number of apartments in England, and if you take that standard it will be found that the difference is a very much more substantial one.
  9.0 P.M.
  There is also a differentiation in regard to rates. That is a matter of very considerable importance in this controversy. The best way in which I can give the information on this subject to the House would be by quoting the speech of the Under-Secretary. He said in Edinburgh:
  "In England practically the whole of the local rates were paid by the tenants, whereas in Scotland the owner paid separate owners' rates. He understood that in burghal Scotland the average owner's rate per £ of the gross rental was about 4s.—20 per cent. of the rent fell to be paid by way of rates."
  He took a house of £20 rental, showing that whereas in Scotland there was £4 to be deducted in rates from the owner before he could secure the balance of the rent, in England the whole £20 would be made available as rent to the owner. That is a very substantial difference, which again involves a differentiation between the position of England and Scotland.
  I come also to a further point which is of importance. In Scotland we have had our own separate legislation dealing with the question of housing in the 1919 Act and subsequent Statutes. The housing and Town Planning (Scotland) Act, in which the Government scheme was carried into effect, was a long Measure with 53 Sections made applicable to Scotland, and involving Scottish law and Scottish considerations. The subsequent Acts, the Housing (Scotland) Acts of 1920 and 1921 were both separate Acts for Scotland as distinct from English Statutes. Is it at all likely to conduce to clearness or satisfactory legislation if you have embodied in this Bill, which has 20 Clauses, a Scottish application Clause which has no fewer than 15 Sub-sections involving different interpretations? I do not think that in my experience I have seen any Bill which has involved so much confusion in draftmanship as this Bill. There is not only a difference in law but a difference in administra-

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  tion. Scotland has its own Board of Health, its own traditions, and its own legislation, and I am sure that the Bill as drafted will make a most unsatisfactory Measure if left in its present position. It has been the fashion of this Government to tack Scottish Clauses on to English Bills. That was done in the Increase of Rents Bill and the Poor Law (Emergency Provisions) Bill. It is a thoroughly bad system, especially when we have a Scottish Committee capable of dealing with these matters. Scottish Members who are far better acquainted with Scottish conditions ought to have the matter before them.
  The proposals in this Bill are entirely inadequate as far as Scotland are concerned. We require a much larger subsidy if we are going to meet the needs of our country in regard to building in the immediate future, both in regard to floor space, the number of cubic feet, and larger dimensions. Moreover, we want our subsidy to continue until the period has elapsed when the whole amount of the loan involved shall be made good and redeemed. I do not quarrel with one of my hon. Friends in asking for 60 years. For a shorter period nothing less than a £10 subsidy will be sufficient to meet our case.
  The effect of this Bill on Scotland is seriously to endanger the building of new houses. Hon. Members representing Scotland have received representations from many Scottish burghs. Experts who can speak for Scotland tell us that if there is a subsidy of only £6, there will be no building or there will not be sufficient building done to meet the needs. I believe that the result will be not only to lower our Scottish standard, but to prevent many local authorities from incurring this unknown liability which will be placed on them. The local authorities have got to face not only this unknown liability, but the concurrent liability of four fifths of a penny which is already on the rates in respect of the 1919 Act. I understand that they are going to get one-half of the deficit which will be involved in slum clearances. Beyond that there will also be substantial amounts required to be added for this unknown liability which may greatly exceed the amount which the right hon. Gentleman agrees to, and his £6 subsidy, I under-
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  stand, is to be regarded as a maximum. In no circumstances is there to be further provision made, even in the cases where very special needs may be indicated.
  The Scottish claim has been flouted and ignored. The Government has turned it down. I am certain that the Under-Secretary for Health and the Scottish Solicitor-General know well that the feeling in Scotland is in favour of greater provision being made, but they will probably tell us that they have been turned down by the Cabinet and have had to accept its decision. That may be an answer in this House, but it is no answer to the people of Scotland, whose verdict upon the question, when the time comes, will be a very strong and drastic one. We have come to a very serious impasse when political exigencies override Scottish rights. We are determined that this Bill shall go before a Scottish Grand Committee, so that it can be dealt with on its merits. We are out, not to destroy this Bill, but to make it a thoroughly good Bill. We believe that it can be made a good Bill, although it is full of defects at present. I do sincerely hope that the hon. and gallant Member, in his reply, will respond to the appeal, which I make to him, to have this Bill divided into two parts, and have the Scottish Bill sent to a Scottish Grand Committee, so as to secure a settlement of this problem which will meet the needs of our country, and we are determined to allow nothing to stand in the way of securing the best possible housing conditions for the people of Scotland. If it were to go to that Committee we should then be able to re-assert Scottish claims and look after the interests of Scotland. If this request is declined that action will be regarded, by those of us who represent Scotland and by many outside, as a betrayal of the best interests of our people.
  Sir WILLIAM RAEBURN: I do not yield to the hon. Member opposite in my love of my own country and my desire to see Scotland get a full share of her rights. At the same time I do not think it in the least unpatriotic to say that I do not agree with the speech which he has made My first reason is that it is not, to my mind, a wise thing to have a separate Bill for Scotland. I am convinced that you would never get a separate Bill for Scotland through in this Session of Parlia-

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  ment. I do not think that you will get it until about this time next year. My great concern in the housing question is to get on with it with the utmost speed. As regards Scotland, I think that we should have a fair representation on the Grand Committee dealing with this Bill. I have found in the past that Scotland was always able to assert itself on these Grand Committees, and I do not remember anything that has been done during my career in Parliament that I could say was really unfair to Scotland. The hon. Member spoke about Scotland not having had its share under the 1919 scheme. I am informed that not only has Scotland had its eleven-eightieths, but that it has got even more. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is a fact. My hon. Friend has quoted the Convention of Royal Burghs. This very afternoon the officers of that organisation admitted to me that that was so. The only doubt that seems to exist is as to whether we have got the amount of money up to the present date that should be allocated to us on that proportion.
  Mr. T. JOHNSTON: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health this afternoon admitted, in answer to a question put by me, that they were still 3,000 odd short of our proportion under the 1919 Act.
  Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland): If me hon. Friend will allow me to speak, I may point out that all these houses which have been allotted to Scotland are about to be built now, and when they are completed we shall have more than our share.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: You have not sanctioned them.
  Sir W. RAEBURN: That is what I said. I knew what I was talking about. Another submission which has been made was that Scotland ought to have a higher rate per house than England, and at the meeting with the members of that organisation yesterday the leading speaker said that they did not want a penny more than England. They did not want to loaf on England for a single pound. If they got equal treatment with England they ask no more. If it can be proved, as I think it can be proved, that we are getting our full share, then I admire their independence in not asking to have anything given them by way of grant more than is given to England. We always have
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  been able to get along ourselves, and I hope that we shall never go hat in hand to beg for favours from our brother country.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: Was it equal grants or equitable grants?
  Sir W. RAEBURN: It is in proportion to what England gets.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: That is quite different.
  Mr. FALCONER: Was the equality in houses or in money?
  Sir W. RAEBURN: The chairman of the organisation was talking about money. The hon. Member for Shettlestone (Mr. Wheatley) seemed to conclude by a wave of his hand that neither the Minister of Health nor anybody else on this side understood anything about the housing question. I have been engaged closely for years on the housing question, and I think that I do know something about it. Among other things, I have been chairman of a workman's dwelling company, which put up a series of buildings, not for the profit of those who invested their money, but to clear away slums and to enable the poorer workers in those places to have better houses than they could afford out of their meagre wages. [HON. MEMBERS: "With 5 per cent. dividend!"] The company has been in existence for 21 years, and the whole dividend paid in that time has been the grand total of 2½ per cent. If anyone doubts that statement, I will hand him the accounts and he can investigate them for himself.
  I agree that this question of housing is, perhaps, the most urgent that we have before the country at the present time. I do not think that the great bulk of our people put such questions as the occupation of the Ruhr Valley and the Conference at Lausanne on the same level as the question of housing. It is a problem which has been going on for years, and it has become greater as time has passed. I have seen the passage through this House of two Housing Bills under the Coalition Government. There was the first Bill that the Coalition took in hand when it assumed office. That Bill had very careful examination. It was not treated on political lines, and I trust that the House will not treat the present Bill on political lines. The

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  subject is one in which we ought all to be interested to do our best. The high hopes that we had that the first Bill, when it became operative, would do a great work, have been belied. At any rate, it did not accomplish the purpose for which it was passed. I shall not go into recriminations or rake up the past. There is no doubt that the Coalition Government was not to blame for the failure of that Act. I remember well sitting on this side of the House and hearing the appeals made from time to time by Dr. Addison to the other side to do their best to persuade trades unions to permit ex-service men to come to the rescue when there was a scarcity of labour. That request was constantly turned down. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I was here and hon. Members were not.
  Mr. McENTEE: I was in the unions and you were not.
  Sir W. RAEBURN: The right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) has said the same thing, and so has the Minister of Health. When it came to the actual building of the houses, hundreds and thousands of them could not be finished for want of plasterers. When I heard the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) speak, I felt that he had in his mind a huge scheme for all our great cities, involving the clearing out of the slums and all bad houses and the building of a better class of house. But surely he must recognise that there is a limit both to the material and the man power at our disposal now? [HON MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"] We put a question to the various municipal authorities that came here. I put it myself in this form, "If a greater scheme were promulgated, have you the skilled labour to carry it out?" Without a single dissentient they said, "No, we have not." This Bill is an honest attempt to lay the foundation for a better state of things than we have at present. The Minister of Health does not claim that it is a solution of all our difficulties, and he would be very foolish if he did so. The Bill is at any rate a great step in the right direction.
  The principle of the Bill, of which I approve, is that the unknown liability is to be placed upon the municipal
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  authorities or the urban authorities, who will have the management of the scheme, and not upon the Government. That is a reversal of the old principle. The other principle underlying the Bill is that it is mainly directed to supplying, or causing to be supplied, that kind of house which is most in demand. I know most about the position in Scotland. The working man and woman can pay only a rent commensurate with their wages. It is impossible to suppose that any authority or any private enterprise can erect houses suitable for such people at a rent which they can afford to pay, and yet make the undertaking commercially sound. A great deal has been said about the size of the houses proposed. The right hon. Member for Swansea said that he hoped there would be no such thing as a two-bedroom house under the scheme. Let us look at the matter squarely and in a practical way. When you begin a housing scheme you must surely have in your mind the various classes of people for whom you are to cater. There is the single woman, or there may be two singles women, one at work and the other keeping house. Such people do not want two-bedroomed and three-bedroomed houses. To begin with, they could not pay for them. Then there is the old couple, the man and his wife with no children. Many of them do not want the larger house. Then you have the man and wife with a family. They do want a larger house.
  What has happened to those who have built the larger houses in recent years? I speak from personal experience. There was a great deal of difficulty because of the rent. Those who took the three-bedroomed houses let either one or two rooms to another family. They made money by sub-letting. Almost every day I am receiving letters from sub-tenants complaining of the extortion of the tenants-in-chief. Lately, from the Parish of Bonhill, in the Vale of Leven, which is in my constituency, I received a letter from the secretary of the authority asking me to plead with the Minister for permission to get on with the two-bedroomed house scheme, because if the Government continued to insist on three-bedroomed houses the authority would not go on with the scheme at all. That council is not made up of capitalists or

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  employers, but, if I may use the expression, is composed largely of the extreme section of the Labour party. These people insisted upon being allowed to build two-bedroomed houses. Representations on the point were made to my right hon. Friend, and I believe the necessary permission has now been granted. You have to consider all these classes of tenants. Many workpeople, especially the older people and single ones, still cling very tenaciously to the one-roomed house. Hon. Members talk about parlour houses, but I have never heard of any such great demand from Scotland as has been mentioned by the English Members.
  We should provide sufficient superficial feet, and then let the local authorities, accordingly as they know the needs of the people, apportion that space into a suitable number of rooms. Supposing you were to say to Scottish tenants, "There is a parlour, a kitchen and two bedrooms; you must use the parlour as a parlour, and nothing else." Are you going to appoint inspectors to see that they do that? If it suited them to let it, and make it into a double-bedded room, they would do so. Under the Regulations, I contend you could not get, with the number of rooms suggested, sufficient cubic feet in each room as set out in the Bill. The Minister of Health read out what could be done with the 850 superficial cubic feet house. You could not do that in Scotland. You would spoil the house if you divided it up into so many little compartments. You would need bigger rooms. I do not suppose the Minister of Health will think us too exacting if we ask him to extend this 850 cubic feet to 950 cubic feet. I feel that this is not an heroic Measure. We cannot settle this question by heroic measures. We have to go step by step and to have the hearty co-operation of utility societies and of municipalities. We must try, if we possibly can, to invoke the aid and enterprise of the private builder. The Bill makes an honest attempt to do all these things, and no doubt the Government will profit by experience.
  I think the Measure is capable of a good deal of alteration and improvement in Committee. The Minister of Health could not have given a more cordial response to a request of that kind than he
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  has had to-night. This is not like the Transport Bill in this House, in which I took a prominent part. Then the Home Secretary said, when we first went up to the Grand Committee, that the Government would not allow a word or comma to be altered There is nothing of the kind here. We are going to be allowed full scope, to try and improve the Measure. I am sure no one will be more thankful grateful for any improvement we can make in it than the Minister of Health. I quite admit that the customs in England and in Scotland are very different. We Scotsmen will take care to try to get some liberty to build according to our own methods. I do not see any difficulty in the Bill in that respect, as long as you have some principle laid down as to the superficial size of the house.
  There is one thing I think ought to be altered, and that is the £6 subsidy, which is limited to houses of a minimum of 550 superficial feet. You cannot get it for a house smaller than 550 superficial cubic feet. We have in the Dwellings Company to which I have referred many houses of under 550 superficial feet, houses of two apartments, and they have been inspected and commended by a society well known to members from Glasgow, viz., the Scottish Women's Trade Council, of which Miss Irwin is the respected secretary. Although to-day we should not be able to get this £6 subsidy on these houses, yet they are highly prized, and we have some of the most respectable tenants in them. They are what we have been asked for for years and years. The rents are collected by lady collectors every Monday, and the reports given by the Christian Social Union on the condition of the houses reflect great credit on the tenants and on those ladies who look after the arrangements.
  As a sample of what can be done in housing, there is a scheme that has the highest possible commendation on all hands. That is the Admiralty housing scheme at Gourock, where they have put up a large torpedo factory. It is an admirable scheme, and the houses are of the cottage type, with gardens round them. They are in a very nice situation. I was curious to find from the Admiralty what they cost, what the rents were, and what loss the Admiralty was sustaining on them to-day. They were erected in 1915–16, at a cost 45 per cent. over pre-War price. To-day, at a modest

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  computation, they would cost 90 per cent. over pre-War prices. The rents range round about £24 per annum, rates and taxes paid. The Admiralty do not pay taxes, they only pay rates. They calculate interest at 4 per cent. I have the documents here—I could have got the information by question and answer from the Government, but I prefer to get it in my own way—to show that the loss per annum is £1,300, and that is based on a cost of only 45 per cent. above pre-War prices. If you double that; and put it at 90 per cent., you would see what the loss would be.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: Of what use is the £6 subsidy?
  Sir W. RAEBURN: I am coming to that. I say that the £6 will not look at it. You are in this position. The Government have said they will not give more than £6, and somebody has to find the difference. The municipalities and the county councils are the only people I know of that can make up the difference. I hope my right hon. Friend will not be annoyed with me when I say that my feeling, when the Budget was introduced, was that here was a surplus of £100,000,000 which we never expected a year ago, all placed to the reduction of the National Debt. I was very tempted to get up the other day, and appeal to the Government to devote part of that £100,000,000 to make this £6 up to £8. I know quite well that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government Front Bench would not thank me for making that suggestion, but I feel I should be inclined to be liberal, and to help get over the housing difficulty and the clearing of the slums, as we ought to do, if we are going to have a, really happy and healthy people. While I think the Bill will not do all that the Minister of Health probably hopes, yet it is a step in the right direction. I earnestly plead with all parts of the House to do their best to get the Measure through Committee, in perhaps an improved and amended form. I appeal to them not to oppose it, and not to put back the achievement which we all want, of a greater number of houses for the working classes, and a speedy clearing out of the slums which are a disgrace to our civilisation at the present time.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: If I wanted anybody effectively to corroborate what I say, I should not desire anyone other than my right hon. Friend who has just sat down, and who is a defender of the present Government. I am standing here as a Scottish Member. I listened to the speech of the Minister of Health and, may I say, from the Government point of view, they could not have had a clearer or more able exponent. As a Scottish Member I was astonished to find that from beginning to end of his speech there was not a single reference to Scotland. He talked with almost parental fluency of the consultations which he had had with the authorities. I heard Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds mentioned, but not a word of Glasgow, Edinburgh, or Dundee—[An HON. MEMBER: "Or even Dingwall!"]—or even Dingwall. As one of the oldest Scottish representatives, I demand on behalf of my colleagues from Scotland, even at this hour of the day, our right to have a Scottish Bill. My right hon. Friend the Minister will not deny that, although he is principal Government exponent on this matter, he knows nothing about Scottish conditions. My hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), in a brilliant speech, also my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Boroughs (Mr. Kirkwood), and the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Sir W. Raeburn)—Dumbarton has had a fair share in the speaking, whatever the rest of Scotland has had—have all made it plain, though speaking from independent points of view, that Scottish conditions are entirely different from English conditions, and the whole of this Bill, from the first Clause to the end, is intended to suit English conditions.
  In 1919 we had separate arrangements for Scotland. At that time we had a Government with, at any rate, a good many Scottish Members in it, and we got certain arrangements for Scotland. At first the local Authorities thought they were not very good, but in the course of time the arrangements which were made for Scotland turned out to be good arrangements and worked well. [HON. MEMBERS: "They did not build houses!"] Well, we have done very well in Scotland. We are short of houses, but we will be shorter still, unless we fight for a Scottish Bill. As a result of the working of the arrangements of 1919, local authorities in Scotland have become

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  adepts in the building of houses. I do not know what my own colleagues from Scotland have found, but I have found that authorities who have written to me from Scotland have been unanimous in demanding a separate Bill for Scotland. If we do not get a separate Bill, what will be the result? Those of us who can manage to catch Mr. Speaker's eye will be allowed to say a few words. A separate Scottish Bill would be sent, as of right, to the Scottish Grand Committee, which has been for years composed of all the representatives from Scotland, irrespective of their political opinions. I do not know why we should not get a separate Bill, but I have a shrewd suspicion that the Government does, not wish these proposals to go before the experts from Scotland. I should like to hear a reply upon the subject from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health. The English Minister of Health knows that he is not competent, able as he is, to deal with the conditions of Scottish housing. We have a problem of our own.
  I am speaking in the main for my own native Highlands, because the South of Scotland has very able speakers on its behalf. In the last Bill a special grant was made for the special conditions of the Highlands, but I find nothing in the present Bill to help my fellow Highlanders in this matter, and there is no indication as to whether that grant is to be renewed or increased. We had, only a few days ago, the spectacle of hundreds of the best men in the world going out to seek a new home in foreign parts and for what reason? Firstly, because of the land conditions, and secondly because of the housing conditions, In the time of stress and war we appealed to the manhood of the country and told them we were entirely dependent upon them, but you will never get a great population in Scotland or anywhere else unless and until you deal adequately with housing conditions. I make a special appeal on behalf of the Highlands, and I hope the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health will be able to satisfy us that something is going to be done.
  I wish also to corroborate what has been said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Millar). I put a Supplementary Question to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary this after-
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  noon and he told us explicitly that the building of a house in Scotland to suit the climatic conditions would cost more than the same type of house in England. Is the hon. Member going to stand now under the aegis of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and tell us, a few hours later, that Scotland has no right to claim an additional subsidy for houses. I say we have a right, upon the hon. Gentleman's own showing, to demand such a subsidy, and if he is going to attempt to perpetuate bad housing conditions in Scotland, he is making a great mistake. In my judgment the plan at present adumbrated will only intensify the evils of bad housing 40 years hence, and the Minister of Health and the Secretary for Scotland should see to it, that not only is Scotland given a larger subsidy because of the climatic condition and the different type of house to which the people of Scotland have been accustomed, but also that they should provide houses which are in accordance with the rural traditions of Scotland and which have what, are called parlours in them. In Scotland, I believe, a house in a rural district costs far more than a house in a town, and if we do not get a sliding scale subsidy I tell the Under-Secretary here and now that the hopes of this housing scheme, as far as Scotland is concerned, are nil.
  I am anxious to see a development of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. It has worked very well in the past, and there is a strong desire in the minds of each man who has fought his way in the industrial world, to own his house. I am delighted to think that the Minister has, in any case, advanced the sum of £800 to £1,200 or £1,500. May I say in conclusion I am not an opponent of the Bill, If I were an English Member, I should regard it as a fairly good Measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "We do not."] I know that, but I am perfectly frank about the matter. So far as England is concerned, I believe it is a fair Measure, but I am not satisfied that it can be made a good Measure for Scotland until the Scottish Members of Parliament, as a whole, have discussed it in Committee, and I warn my right hon. Friend that it will get no support from the Members with whom I am working, first, until there is a reconsideration of the subsidy. and, secondly, unless there is a guarantee that that house which is built in Scotland should have a cubic

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  measure sufficient to allow to people desirous of occupying that house a room for their children to read in and to play in. I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to reconsider the position, to give us a separate Bill for Scotland, and, in any case, to give the Scottish Members the right, as Parliament meant them to have the right, in connection with any Bill dealing with Scotland, and particularly with peculiarly Scottish conditions, to discuss that Bill and improve it in Committee.
  Mr. W. HUTCHISON: One welcomes any Measure that deals with housing at the present time, but one cannot help feeling great disappointment at this Measure which has been introduced by the Minister of Health, which deals with only the fringe of the subject and does not endeavour to grapple with the question in the way that is necessary to produce really decent housing conditions. This matter of who is responsible for building the smaller type of houses is no new thing. So long ago as 1855 the Government of that day passed a Measure to try to encourage voluntary associations to build houses for the working classes. That was found not to be a Measure which gained much acceptance, and, consequently, it years later, the Government passed another Act, which endeavoured to encourage local authorities to go on with houses of the smaller type, realising even then that private enterprise was not likely to do anything towards helping the housing conditions of that day. That has since been the policy of all the Governments up to 1919, and even then the policy was to remit to the local authorities the responsibility of providing houses for the people, but we have in this Measure a very strange going back on what had been accepted as the tradition of that class of housing, because we have in this Measure, not that the local authority is to build the houses, but that the local authority is to endeavour to encourage private enterprise to build houses of this particular type, and it is only after the local authorities are able to satisfy the Minister of Health that private enterprise cannot do it, that the local authority is to get any power to build houses at all.
  The matter is urgent, the matter is clamant, and how long is it going to
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  take a local authority to discover that private enterprise will not undertake this housing question, and how long, after that, is it going to take the local authority to persuade the Minister that private enterprise has failed in this matter? It seems to me that it is not attacking the problem in the right way at all. It is admitted by everybody who holds houses of the class referred to in this Bill that every private owner of such a house would be glad to get rid of it to-morrow on almost any conditions whatever. It has never paid him a return on his money, and it never will, and, therefore, how is it likely now, after all the unrest that has been caused regarding the question of the taxation of land and houses, that a private man is going to build a house, which he builds, not for the purpose of holding, but for the purpose of selling to somebody at a profit? I cannot see at the present day that it is possible to believe that private enterprise will deal with this class of houses, and why should this obstacle be imposed between them and the policy which has been accepted for 50 years and more as the policy of all the Governments of this country, that houses of this particular type have been the care of the local authority and the national Government, and not the care of private enterprise at all?
  The legislation of 1919 limited local authorities as to the amount for which they were responsible, but this Bill places upon them unlimited responsibility because the Government is going to give them a subsidy of only £6 for 20 years. If the Government itself in 1919, when prices went up against, them, stopped their housing scheme, how much more readily will the local authorities, which will find prices going up against them, stop their housing schemes, when it means unlimited liability and an increase in the already overburdened rates? You will find no local authorities that will go on with that particular matter, and therefore we will have at once a cessation of this building, and the difficulty that will emerge therefrom. A point that the Bill does not deal with is this: Assuming that under the Bill we get these houses, or some of them, there is no provision made in this Measure, as far as I can see, as to what the rental of these houses is going to be. You may have the houses built, but what rental is going to be exacted

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  from the tenant who takes a house? No control seems to me to be exercised on the private builder as to what amount he shall exact from the tenant who takes his house, and surely that is of the very essence of the problem, for if the Government is going to give a subsidy something should be said about fixing the amount of rent to be exacted from the tenant. The Bill is silent on that subject. It is most important, nevertheless, because, after all, in the majority of cases, and particularly in industrial districts, it is impossible to assume that any man will ever be in a position, with present-day wages, to have sufficient money to acquire his house, and therefore he must remain, as so many of us have to do, a tenant practically all his days.
  We have heard a great deal from the other side regarding rural areas. At any rate, there is this difference between them and the industrial centres, that in rural areas they have fresh air, but in the great industrial centres the conditions are appalling, with people herded and crowded together in places that are not fit for animals to be in, and this is a matter that must be seriously faced. The local authorities, in connection with slum clearances, before the War had not done the duty imposed upon them by Act of Parliament, and they had not endeavoured to go on with housing conditions in normal times. Is it likely, then, that now that we have unlimited liability placed upon them, we shall find them keen or anxious to go on with this housing scheme? While the Government is endeavouring, by small bribes to the local authorities, to get them to build the houses, there is no compulsion on those authorities. We may find one local authority taking up a housing scheme, but there may be dozens of others refusing to have anything to do with the matter, and, consequently, in those particular districts you will have no houses built whatever under this scheme.
  I would like, if it were possible, that we should have had something done for the peculiar conditions of Scotland. They have been referred to over and over again, and those of us who know the industrial centres in Scotland know that the tenement house in that country is on an entirely different footing from the English cottage. We have no such thing. The man in a Scottish city like Glasgow,
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  from which I come, is not going to live two or three miles away from the place where he works. He has never been accustomed to do it. The time and money it costs him make it impossible. Therefore, he has got to get his slums cleared, and new and proper houses erected in the same district. All these very difficult problems are not contemplated in this Measure. It is only a flat or two-flat house. In our flats in Glasgow there are 3, 4 or 5 tenants sometimes in one flat. Does the £6 subsidy apply to every house in a particular flat, or does it only apply to one flat? There are a good many conditions which do not arise from the English point of view, but which arise from the Scottish point of view, and we as Scottish Members must insist in Committee that the remedies are suitable for Scotland. I am not so much interested in having a special measure for Scotland, but if this Measure is put into proper form as far as Scotland is concerned, that will satisfy me.
  I would like to know if subsidies are going to be given to benefit individual builders? Where the private builder sells his house, who is going to get the benefit of the subsidy? Is it the man who built the house, or is the purchaser of the house to get it? There is nothing in the Bill showing what is to be done in that particular matter. Then what are the prospects under this Measure, unless force is applied, and the Government take the matter in hand themselves, that we shall have any houses under the scheme? It is almost impossible to believe that if this scheme is to be completed in the period laid down wages and prices will not rise to such a figure as to make these houses impossible to build except at greatly enhanced values, and if a so-called economic rent were to be charged on the house, it would be beyond the limit of any worker to pay. It does not seem that this Bill, unless considerably amended in Committee, will accomplish the object which it is intended to serve. It is only a tentative measure at the best. It is something better than nothing, and we should give it a Second Reading and try to get it enlarged.
  Another point on which I am not satisfied with regard to this Measure is as to the size of the houses. There are many districts where the local authority would like to go beyond the standard

  403
  which the Bill contemplates, and there are many cases where the local authority might consider the limited space in the houses absurd. It seems to me there should be more elasticity in the Measure, or some power given to the local authority to choose what particular class of house it shall build. It seems to me this standard has been based on some particular town or village. I would vote for any Bill that would build houses, and, therefore, I shall support this Measure. The real criticism in connection with Scotland against this particular Measure is not so much the question of separate treatment; it is that if the Bill is carried through as it stands, without some alterations being made, you will be compelled to adopt a standard house for Scotland fixed on an English principle. Now standard things are not things that we seek. We know perfectly well that the great theory during the War was to have standard ships, but when the War was over no shipowner would accept them. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I shall vote for the Second Reading of the Bill in the hope that it will be considerably amended in Committee.
  Mr. HARDIE: On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is the rule of this House to call to speak those Members who have gone to the Speaker's Chair, or whether you, Sir, are guided by what you think is right in the matter?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not give anyone who comes to me at it this Chair any special privilege.
  10.0 P.M.
  Mr. NEWBOLD: I rise to speak on this Measure as one who represents a part of Lanarkshire which is famous throughout the country, or, rather, one might say, as a result of the evidence that has been given before various Commissions and inquiries, is known as the worst housed in the whole of the kingdom. I come from the Burgh of Motherwell, which, unfortunately, has a reputation for housing conditions probably without parallel in this country, and when I examine the present Bill, for which I intend to vote, I find that it is altogether inadequate to deal with the situation which presents itself to us in Lanarkshire. We have there a condition of affairs which has resulted at successive elections in the virtual sweeping out of
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  all representatives of the capitalist parties into the agricultural and more barbarous parts of the Kingdom. It has been stated in the Press that Motherwell is something in the nature of a political phenemenon. If anyone will visit the town which I represent in Parliament, he will understand quite well why I have been elected to represent that constituency. He will realise that architecturally, and from the sanitary position, Motherwell is a blight upon the landscape, which has produced the condition of affairs that presented me to this House. I am clearly aware that that is the explanation of the extremism which is manifested in the County of Lanark.
  I have here statistics derived from the Census returns of 1911, which are substantially correct for at least one part of the borough at the present time. I find that in 1911, in Wishaw, which was at that time the worst housed borough in the whole of Scotland, Coatbridge, Airdrie, Hamilton and Motherwell coming next, the proportion of people living more than two to a room was 70·1 per cent.; more than three to a room, 45·1 per cent.; and more than four to a room, 24 per cent. The number of one-roomed houses was 23 per cent. I have here to-day, sent to me by local Labour representatives on the town council, reports of the medical officer of health dealing with over-crowding and general insanitary conditions, and also with the effects on the health of the people of the conditions prevailing. I find there are at present in the burgh 415 one-apartment houses which are described as utterly unfit for human habitation. There are other houses of two rooms, which are also in a similar plight, and when I come to the figures showing the phthisis or consumption compiled by the medical officer of health, these figures bear a striking relation to the horrible over crowding there prevailing. There are some of us who have seen those nearest to us slowly dying of consumption and know what this horror really is. It is a horror which affects primarily the members of the working classes. Consumption is a disease produced by overcrowding, underfeeding and poverty conditions. It is one of the diseases from which the whole body politic is rotting. Venereal diseases and other diseases are aggravated by overcrowding.

  405
  I have here figures showing the enormous increase in the infant mortality under the age of one year, and the medical officers' figures bear out quite clearly that the reason for this is the overcrowding in the burgh. I find, taking the figures month by month, that in October last year in phthisis cases there were five cases in one-apartment houses and one case in four-apartment houses. In November there were 12 cases in one-apartment houses, and one case in three-apartment houses. In February 11 cases in one-apartment houses, and one case in three-apartment houses. These are the horrible results of overcrowding such as we are suffering from at the present time, not only in the part of Lanarkshire I represent, but throughout all the mining areas of that county, and I feel sure the Members who speak for the other mining areas of Scotland will be able to show similar figures. I suggest to the Under-Secretary of Health and the head of the Department that if they desire to stamp out this disease they will have to deal in a much more thorough manner with the problem of housing. It is not possible for the moral standard of the people to be maintained; it is not possible for the educational standard to be improved unless they provide housing far in excess of which they have provided in that scheme. That is the thing that is making tens and hundreds of thousands of people into revolutionaries. This is the most serious problem with which they have to deal. It is a problem which, if they do not tackle it, will result in a revolutionary situation in the Clyde Valley. There is no likelihood of them dealing with it in a satisfactory manner. I would desire to see that situation arising as quickly as possible, but what I do desire is that the people in these areas should have an opportunity of studying and educating themselves so that in the critical moment they will be able to avail themselves of the opportunities that occur.
  When this Bill comes to the Committee stage, it is my intention to put forward a number of Amendments. This Bill, in my opinion, arising out of a grave national difficulty, is being used for the purpose of further strengthening the position of two economic interests in the State. One of these is the landowner, and I propose to bring forward an Amendment to extend and improve the opportunities for local
  406
  authorities compulsorily to acquire land at cheaper rates. That is not the whole Communist position, but, until the Communist position is realised, we are going to do something if we can to clear the cesspool which the industrial areas are at present. Then the Bill does a great deal to assist those who have money lying idle. There are not only a great number of unemployed workers at the Labour Exchanges. There is, also, a great amount of unemployed capital at the Stock Exchange. There is capital awaiting investment at higher interest, and everything in the Bill points to an endeavour to help that capital to find a higher rate of interest. At a later stage in the proceedings on the Bill, it is my intention, if possible, to introduce an Amendment for the purpose of substituting for the loans, which the local and central authorities are empowered to raise, a levy on capital. In my opinion this is a matter which should have priority so far as a capital levy is concerned. If capital will not, come forward and come forward for nothing, then that capital should be compelled to come forward and save the life of the people. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea protested that he was in favour of larger rooms and larger houses. That came rather curiously from that particular quarter. It may be that it is unknown to him, and if it is, I suggest he make application to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs as to the interest many members of his party and their immediate relatives have in building rings, particularly those which have erected some palaces in the county of Dumbarton. These people are complaining of the Bill and desiring it should be put back six months. In my judgment, they are only utilising this as an excuse for showing hostility to a policy whereby the Government is attacking the building syndicates and rings. When this Bill comes to the Committee stage I intend to have something to say about it. All of us who come from Lanarkshire feel this matter intensely, because at the present time we are noticing preparations for giving a start in life to somebody who has not produced as much as many of those in our constituencies. If the same opportunities were given to the workers as are given to the Duke of York we would not complain.
  Mr. JAMES STEWART: I should like to ask the Minister of Health two questions before I address myself to the Scottish aspect of this question. In Clause 3 the Minister of Health said that railway companies and such like who wished to build houses would be able to do so, and I desire to ask him if these houses will be tied houses? Will the people who reside in these houses and work for the railway or colliery company, or whatever it may be—will they be compelled to leave these houses should they leave the employment of the companies? That is the first question. The next is in regard to Clause 17, paragraph (c), regarding the proprietor who has got a house partly erected by public money and has to reside in it for five years, and who seemingly then can dispose of it; if he does dispose of it, is he to be entitled to put on it any price the market will allow, and thereby, if the housing shortage still continues, to be able to make a profit on the house partly built by public money?
  Two speakers to-night, dealing with the Scottish aspect of the question, have pointed out that we are in a different position to England; that we required a bigger subsidy and different conditions. The necessity for some differentiation of treatment between the English portion of the Bill and the part that applies to Scotland has been accentuated from the opposite side of the House. There is one other point that, I think, might be made in regard to the Scottish part of the Bill in view of the tremendous shortage of houses that still exists. We have since 1919, instead of making progress towards making up a little leeway, actually been going back steadily all the time. In Glasgow, a city which represents, as the Scottish Members very well know, practically one-fourth of the population, there was in 1919 a shortage of 57,000 houses. There had been not sufficient houses built for the years 1905 until 1919–1922 by private enterprise to fulfil the necessary requirements in any one year—not by thousands of houses; consequently, all that time from 1905 onwards we have been going downhill. So that since 1919 there is to be added to the 57,000 houses a shortage averaging about 5,000 houses per year. This makes a total of, not 57,000, but of something like 77,000, To meet that shortage, only a little over 4,000 houses have been
  408
  erected or are in process of being erected, some hundreds of these being temporary wooden structures put up when the shortage was very bad and the Government of that time was eminently desirous of showing its tremendous anxiety to build homes fit for heroes. Therefore, they built them little wooden huts or shacks.
  The tremendous problem of the one-room house has been pointed out and emphasised. English Members have absolutely no idea of the meaning of the word. The Minister of Health to-day made his statement in regard to housing. The Report he was presenting from the London County Council seemed to strike him as abnormal in regard to housing conditions, and the number of people living in one-and two-roomed houses. Why, we take that all for granted. It is the natural condition of affairs that prevails in every industrial part of our country. What is the price you are paying? I want, so far as in my power lies, to treat this merely as a business problem. When a firm or person in business discovers a new way of dealing with production he is interested in, as has frequently happened in the United States, he puts down machinery costing millions of dollars and after he has done this he discovers that newer, better and more effective machinery has been introduced. What does he do? He at once scraps his new machinery and puts down the better machinery. We as business men are in exactly the same position in dealing with housing. We are allowing our raw material to go to waste because of the bad machinery that is being employed. We are allowing it to go down on every hand, and therefore I suggest that you should scrap these bad houses and erect better houses and then you will get a profit.
  A Member of this House, who was once a medical officer of health, has written a little book or pamphlet in which he demonstrates, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this country is losing £100,000,000 every year as a result of the bad health of the people mainly caused by bad housing. Besides this, we have reports from Sir Arthur Newsholme, the late head of the Medical Department of the Ministry of Health, who has also written a book which ought to be read by every person in this country, showing the terrible

  409
  effects of bad housing, accompanied by the poverty that is usually attached to bad housing conditions, and he shows the many millions of pounds you are losing annually in this way. In my own city we have two great general hospitals, kept up mainly by private philanthropy, and they are costing over £250,000 a year. We have a great general hospital and two subsidiary hospitals attached to our parish council, and in one of them we have room for 1,200 patients, and in the other room for about 500. The Glasgow Parish Council, in dealing with relief of bad health caused in a great degree by bad housing, is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds, and we have charities dealing with this problem as well. Glasgow Corporation Health Committee is spending on the treatment of tuberculosis £250,000 annually, and we are ever building more hospitals and sanatoria. Our fever hospitals are often filled to overflowing, and every patient in them costs £2 per week per patient. Altogether I estimate, and it is a conservative estimate, that we are spending not less than £1,000,000 on ill-health and diseases that mainly arise from bad housing. Suppose that you capitalise that £100,000,000 which is mentioned by the hon. and Gallant Member for St. Albans (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle), at 20 years' purchase what do you get? You get a figure of £2,000,000,000.
  Do not think that by not building you are escaping paying the price, for you are paying it, and you are paying it in every other way. You are paying it in a stunted population. Come with me to my city and walk through our streets, go through the places where you find the people who sometimes work, when they can get an employer. Notice the height of the boys at the corner—young men of 18 and 21 years of age, hardly over 5 feet—something in keeping with the stature of myself, and something of the same physique. Watch the women, flat-chested and anæmic, with no development. Come with me then to the well-to-do streets—Sauchiehall Street, Renfield Street, Buchanan Street—and there you will see an entirely different type of men and women, more developed; and why? Because they are living under decent conditions, that give them an opportunity to develop. That is what you are paying.
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  Let me, in conclusion, say this, that you are not working at this problem in ignorance. In the Minister of Health's own city, in the City of Birmingham, those philanthropists, the Messrs. Cadbury, thought they would like to try and do a little towards solving the housing problem. They were accustomed to working in the slums with their Bible classes and Sunday schools. They saw the results of the conditions, and then, not as philanthropists, but as men dealing with a business proposition, they put some hundreds of thousands of pounds into building these houses, not 20 to the acre, but 10 to the acre, with 500 yards of ground attached—each house standing on an area representing 500 yards of ground, and no house with less than four rooms; and they were able to build them, in these days, and let them at a rent of 4s. a week. It is true that the first houses they built for the working classes had that kind of bath room which is going to be perpetuated in this Bill, with the bath in the scullery, and which is the kind of thing that, after many years' experience, you are now offering to the workers. Everyone has commended Messrs. Cadbury's scheme. Many Members of this House have been there, and many public authorities have sent their representatives there to see and to learn what could be done with housing. Later the same thing was done by the other cocoa manufacturers, Messrs. Rowntree, and then, to cap all, Mr. Lever, now Lord Leverhulme—not as a philanthropist, but as a business man—built houses at Port Sunlight, eight to the acre, to be let at the cost of merely keeping them in repair, not a penny being allowed for the capital that was in them. When it was pointed out to him that this was philanthropy run mad, he said, "No, it is not philanthropy, absolutely no; it is a business proposition. I get the return in the improved health of my workers; I get their steadiness at their work. There is no sickness, and their children are not now rickety; they are straightening out under the new conditions that obtain." In my city tens of thousands of the population are ricketty because of the conditions that obtain. We suggest to you that as business men you should look at this from a money point of view, and if you do you are not going to stop us building in 1925. You are not going to

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  be content with your houses of 800 cubic feet or thereabouts. Local authorities know this problem. There is practically no difference between Conservative and Liberal and Labour now with regard to the necessity, and they are not prepared to waste the ratepayers' money any more than you are prepared to waste the taxpayers' money. They are mostly one and the same people, and they have come to the conclusion that the schemes that you have promulgated, and the actions you have taken with regard to housing are not promoting housing and will not solve the problem.
  Give us a free hand in our localities, guide us if you care to, but do not prevent us from building houses that we know from the experience we have had are required, and we are ultimately going to pay you cent. per cent. for every penny you have paid. I ask you to accept it on a business proposition, and to remember the ultimate well-being of the people. You are driving away from our country thousands of your very best, and are leaving us with the residuum, and with that residuum we cannot build up those four thousands who are going every week. You are destroying the power to build. The men who are going away are attracted to Canada and the United States by the large wages that are being paid and the reductions that are taking place here. There is no attempt to lengthen hours there. Forty-four hours a week with a wage ranging from a dollar to a dollar and a half an hour are being paid in the building trade. If you allow these men to go away, when you start to build houses again you will be up against the same problem. The men will not be there to work, and then there will be the cry to allow for opening up so that the trade may take in unskilled men, and you will spend money once more, as you did under the Addison scheme, as you did under the Gentleman who solved the housing problem by building no houses. It will come back to that again, and we shall be in the same plight we are to-day. I beg of you in the name of the people, in the name of what has been said here to-day, in face of what I believe is happening, to tackle this question. Allow us to spend money knowing that we are spending it for the ultimate well-being of our State, and if the
  412
  people decay, your State decays with them.
  Captain ELLIOT: I have delayed intervening as long as possible. No one would consider it would have been anything but a loss to our Debate if we had been deprived of the very sincere and passionate and suggestive speech which has just been delivered. But in many of the contentions which the hon. Member advances he will find us wholly at one with him. He pleaded for a freer hand for local authorities. The very gist and essence of the Bill is to provide, as far as possible a freer hand for local authorities than they had under previous schemes. To get the Government out of the business of controlling local authorities it is necessary to have some scheme different from the 1919 Scheme. The same request that has been made with so much force by the hon. Member who spoke last has been reiterated to us. They said: "Give us a free hand. Make us a contribution, and clear out of the housing business. Leave it to the people who are able to administer the thing locally and who are infinitely better acquainted with local conditions than you are." The essence of this Bill is that it is an enabling Bill extending the powers of local authorities. That is the justification for bringing in one Bill to-night to meet the two cases of Scotland and England. The essence of the problem is the same. The essence of the problem in both countries is that the demand has been the same, that we should make a contribution to the local authorities, and that we should cease to interfere with them in every possible way. There are people still who would wish the schemes under the 1919 Act to continue, that we should have the unlimited liability of the State continued, and that the liability of the local authorities should be allowed to completely terminate. It is not possible to continue the schemes on that basis. We have had this matter before us for several years. We have seen the working of the old schemes.
  The hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), who moved the rejection of the Bill, spoke with confident assurance—which those of us who are neither of his mental calibre nor of his long acquaintance with every phase of the problem must envy—and with an absolute certitude of what the difficulty was, and every detail

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  of the exact steps by which the difficulty can be solved. We on this side of the House pretend to have no such omniscience. As the Minister of Health says, this is an attempt, this is an instalment, this is a trial to embark on some new scheme for providing houses which shall not have the defects which have been revealed in practice in the actual test of the older schemes. As recently as 1917 a Commission on Housing in Scotland reported on the housing situation in that country. That Commission was composed of the greatest experts in the country, and more than one Labour representative sat upon it, and they reported that it was possible to produce 215,000 houses at a complete cost to the State of £28,000,000. When that was the verdict of the experts in 1917, it will be realised with what trepidation it is necessary for ordinary Members to approach this gigantic problem. The Addison schemes in England have produced less than 215,000 houses, and the cost to the State has not been £28,000,000, but will amount to something like £600,000,000. In the face of a divergence so great between theory and practice those of us who are lesser mortals than the Labour party will be content to move humbly, to go warily, and to feel our way step by step. [An HON. MEMBER: "That will not carry you far!"] The hon. Member, no doubt, with that zeal which so characterises him, desires us to make a frontal attack on the problem, and to solve with a great sweep the question which confronts us, not only in Scotland, but throughout the country. With that desire I am in heartiest sympathy, but to do that we should require to take much more drastic steps than have been contemplated in any previous housing schemes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—much more drastic than we could get assent for from any hon. Member on the other side. [HON. MEMBERS: "Try us!"] Hon. Members have suggested the production of houses as shells were produced in the War. Do they forget that that involved not merely conscription for the Army, but conscription of labour at home? The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) ought to be the last to quote the experience in that case when he knows that so bitterly was that industrial compulsion resented by the working classes on the Clyde that he organised many a demonstration on account of it,
  414
  and eventually he was placed in the serious position of having to be removed by Governmental action from that place.
  Mr. T. JOHNSTON: They asked for guarantees that if dilution was allowed they would have guarantees after the War was over. You could do that in housing and have no objection.
  Captain ELLIOT: The hon. Member has a belief in the power of Governments to control the future which is not shared by anybody who has been a Member of this House for any length of time and I am certain is not shared by any Member of the present Government. The situation is that we have the Addison and Munro schemes working out and coming to an end. We are taking advantage of them coming to an end to devise some machinery which shall not be open to the criticism which we have found in practice to be justified when levelled against the scheme. There is nothing more probable than that we shall find defects in this scheme, but we must realise that in the case of a problem so intricate and so colossal, nobody can pretend to come down here and lay down the book of the 10 tables on the despatch box with the certainty of the Prophet Moses bringing back the book of laws from the Mountain of Sinai.
  Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Try the Scottish Grand Committee.
  Captain ELLIOT: My hon. Friend suggested that the wisdom which Moses drew from the mountain of Sinai will be found in the Scottish Grand Committee.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: More will be found there than in the English Committee.
  Captain ELLIOT: While I have the highest opinion of the intelligence of the Scottish Committee, I have no such absolute assurance as the hon. Gentleman seemed to indicate.
  An HON. MEMBER: The golden calf!
  Captain ELLIOT: I am not sure where that reference would bring us. It might take the hon. Gentleman very much further than he thinks if he pursues that line of reasoning. The action which the prophet took on returning towards those who, he found, had strayed during his absence, might have to be paralleled by the Government on finding that the Committee had not been, perhaps, so reverent

  415
  in their treatment of the question as they should have been. There are two problems before the House to-night. There is the great problem of the Bill, to which I wish to address myself, I can assure the House, as a whole. I do not think that my colleagues will need the assurance that for a Scotsman to sit silent all these hours while arguments of the strength and ferocity of the arguments brought forward on this question were delivered and then to limit himself to a bare half-hour, is putting a strain on himself which, as a Minister of Health, I should deprecate any other Scottish Member having to do. A point to which I must address myself now is the action of the Government in bringing forward the one Measure for Scotland and for England. On that I would wish the House to bear with me, particularly the non-Scottish Members, while I reason with the brethren. It will not escape the House that this Bill has been the subject of such bitter complaint against us in reference to housing in Scotland that, in the Debate this afternoon, I think nine Scottish Members, or Members representing Scottish constituencies, have taken part, and only four of what might be termed other nationalities—two Welshmen, the right hon. Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) and another, and two Englishmen. One of the great objections to the Bill was that Scotland was being oppressed, and even gagged, under the procedure. The complaints of gagging have come not from the nationality which had only two representatives, but from the nationality which has had nine representatives. First and foremost, the justification for bringing these two Measures into the one Bill is that, except for one or two minor points, the provisions are the same for both countries. [HON. MEMBERS "They ought not to be!"] It is said, first, that the provisions are not the same, and that a complicated Clause is being introduced in order to twist this Bill to apply to Scotland; and there is the further contention that, although the provisions are the same and no such twist is taking place, they ought to be different. Let me deal with the first point. The position is that the provisions for both countries are the same. There are the usual translations for Scotland. The points of differ-
  416
  ence are in one or two Clauses—Clause 8, Sub-section (5), and (14) and (15). They are points of minor importance. The main difference which divides me from many hon. Members is that, although the provisions are the same, they ought not to be the same; that Scotland has always had separate treatment in Housing Acts before, and should have it now. But let us consider whether that is actually borne out by the facts. The main Act, the Act of 1890, the great consolidating Statute, was a United Kingdom Measure, which applied to Scotland as well as to England—
  Mr. HARDIE: The 1919 Act gave five years for a subsidy to Scotland, against three for England.
  Captain ELLIOT: I must develop my case. I am mentioning the origin of these Housing Statutes. I come first to the Act of 1890. That was a United Kingdom Act. I admit that in 1919 you got a separate Bill for Scotland, as against England. But why? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Inverness (Mr. Macpherson) asked why? The reason was that the Royal Commission of 1917 made a Report making certain definite recommendations for Scotland which were not made for England, and those recommendations had to be given statutory form, and the statutory form was the Act of 1919. We do not pass separate Acts merely for the purpose of debating and re-debating subjects in this House, but to carry provisions into effect, and the provisions which required to be carried into effect in 1919 were the statutory provisions recommended by the Royal Commission. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Government brought in a further Bill in 1919, a subsidy measure, to deal additionally with the problem of housing. That was a United Kingdom Bill, applicable to Scotland as well as to England. These points would serve to dispose of the contention that a precedent is being created now, and that Scotland is in some way being baulked of its rights and is not receiving its accustomed treatment. I have shown that both in 1890, and again—once the provisions of the 1917 Royal Commission had been given statutory effect to—in 1919, in both these cases, the United Kingdom problem was tackled by an United Kingdom Act and met by a single statute, common to both kingdoms of Great Britain.

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  What, then, is the gist of the problem before us, which involves a treatment very similar, if not identical, both for Scotland and for England. Surely, it is the financial provision. The gist of this Bill is the financial provision made in it for the subsidy which is to be paid to those erecting new houses in the future in Great Britain. When we are faced with that, we have to realise that unless you can get a differentiation in the subsidy, two separate Bills are really scarcely worth having. Unless you can get a differentiation in the finance of the Bill, as those hon. Members who have sat in Grand Committee, and in Scottish Grand Committees, know, at every turn we are held up by the unalterable limits of the Financial Resolution. Once you have a Financial Resolution you come up against a thing which the Chairman rules out of order. If we cannot get separate financial treatment of Scotland against England, the chief case for a separate Scottish Bill falls to the ground. The case for separate treatment for Scotland depends, again, on two aspects of the case. The first is the claim of the Scottish authorities that the house they were building was a better house than the English house; and the second is that the actual cost of building was greater in Scotland than in England. That is to say, that to produce the same article cost more in Scotland than it did in England. There is the other point brought forward by many hon. Members, that you must have a superior article for Scotland as against England. With that, as a Scotsman, I am in the most hearty agreement, but when I came to England, Englishmen say—I cannot deny that there is much justice in their claim—"Have a superior article for Scotland if you wish, but, in the name of self-respect, pay for it yourself."
  With regard to the very eloquent speech of the hon. Member for the St. Rollox Division of Glasgow (Mr. J. Stewart), although, as a Scotsman, I was touched by his eloquence, I find myself wishing that he had made that speech, not here, on the Floor of the House, and particularly not in the presence of so many Englishmen. His case was that there was a financial return to be found by building good houses; that it paid the community that did the improvement, and that in Glasgow, £1,000,000 a year, spent on the treatment of disease, could be saved by the provision of better houses
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  In the face of those arguments, I find the greatest difficulty in going to the British Treasury and saying, "We propose to do improvements which, by our own showing, will result in a great economy, but we wish that the subsidy to be paid on account of them should be higher for us in Scotland than you are able to obtain in England."
  Mr. D. MILLAR: Did you not ask for a £7 subsidy?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: Did not the hon. and gallant Gentleman say, this afternoon, that this type of house cost more in Scotland than in England?
  Captain ELLIOT: I took the figure of £23—
  Mr. MACPHERSON: Did you not ask for more?
  Captain ELLIOT: Of course, I did. I should not have thought it necessary for one Scotsman to have to tell another that he had put in a claim for more money out of the Treasury. Of course, I used every power at my disposal. I considered that we had made out a case. The case was put up to an impartial tribunal, and that tribunal decided that the regional claim could not be made out.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: It is a national claim.
  Captain ELLIOT: It is a regional claim. The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. If you are to have a United Kingdom subsidy, it is a United Kingdom subsidy, and if you are to have differentiation for one part of the United Kingdom, do not let him delude himself with the idea that the other parts of Great Britain will be satisfied to see Scotland get away with her special subsidy and will not, at once, put in claims themselves. Let me in the few moments left to me ram home the point as to why the Cabinet decided against regional treatment and in favour of the flat rate, and why I ask the House, and particularly the Scottish Members, to vote for the flat rate. As against regional treatment the argument is delay. If there is one thing that means delay more than another, it is to break up the principle of the flat rate and mark out the various areas of Great Britain for differential treatment. Each of them can make out

  419
  a claim for differential treatment, under some head. Can we conceive that Wales will not put in a claim for separate treatment? Can we believe that the claim which was so eloquently urged by the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Newbold) in respect of phthisis cannot be urged as strongly by the Members representing Wales? Can we believe that our claim for special treatment because the undulating nature of our sites calls for special under-building, cannot be urged with as much insistence by the Members for Wales? In Liverpool the cost of building is high and all up and down Great Britain there are differential factors. Time is running on. If we are to embark on a detailed examination of this problem on these lines, not only for this summer, but I venture to predict for next summer, building will be quite impossible. We must get down to facts. We must get to work on this problem. We must get a start made on this new experiment.
  Therefore I welcome the appeal which has come from many sections of the House not to treat this as a final solution of our problem, but as an instalment; to take up and pass the Bill as rapidly as possible through all its stages, and then, if necessary, evolve further plans for the settlement of the question.
  It is not possible for me to take such statements as have been made by the hon. Members for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) and East Fife (Mr. Millar) with the due amount of seriousness with which they, as Members of the House, should be treated, when they suggest that, while in England some of the local authorities have come to an agreement for £4 a house for 20 years, we in Scotland should have £12 a house for 60 years. Such claims immeasurably worsen our position. They make people in England think that there is no seriousness in the claims we advance, and that we are asking for more money on the principle that it cannot do any harm and that we may be able to have half the loaf when we ask for the whole. Finally I should say that we must recognise an aspect of the problem merely touched upon to-night. This point is that at present we are making the worst of both worlds. We are interfering
  420
  with private enterprise and ruining its chances, yet, so far, we must frankly admit we are not succeeding in dealing with the problem by communal enterprise. We are barely keeping pace with the annual increase of population. We are not dealing with slum clearances, and we are not dealing with the problem of the wastage of houses.. I cannot go further into the condition to-night, but I would appeal to all sections of the House, particularly to the Scottish Members, to come in with England in this business, and let us see what we can do with the subsidy that is provided in the Bill.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.—[Sir John Simon.]
  Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

  ILLEGAL TRAWLING (SCOTLAND) PENALTIES BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
  RABBITS AND ROOKS BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
  EXEMPTION OF SEWERS FROM RATING BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendment to the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill be considered forthwith," put, and agreed to.—[Lieut.-Colonel Guinness.]
  Considered accordingly.
  Lords Amendment:

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Section 44.)
    In proviso (5) to Section forty-four of the Army Act (which prescribes the scale of punishment by courts martial) after the

    421
    word "flogging" there shall be inserted the words "or attachment to a fixed object."
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    I do not think this needs any explanation. It is a condition made to satisfy hon. Members opposite, and it was agreed to do it in the House of Lords.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Some of my hon. Friends undertook not to delay
    422
    the proceedings, and I thank the hon. and gallant Member.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

BRITISH ARMY.
  WAR ENLISTMENTS (CLASS C3 MEN).
  WAR ENLISTMENTS (CLASS C3 MEN).
  ROYAL MALTA ARTILLERY (SUBALTERNS).
  ROYAL MALTA ARTILLERY (SUBALTERNS).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  MEDICAL INSPECTION, EAST MIDLANDS.
  MEDICAL INSPECTION, EAST MIDLANDS.
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  MENTAL CASES.
  MENTAL CASES.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (WOMEN).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (WOMEN).
  TRAINEES (EMPLOYMENT).
  TRAINEES (EMPLOYMENT).
  OPIUM TRAFFIC.
  OPIUM TRAFFIC.
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (COMPENSATION AWARDS).
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (COMPENSATION AWARDS).
  COLONIES AND PROTECTORATES (WOMEN AND CHILDREN).
  COLONIES AND PROTECTORATES (WOMEN AND CHILDREN).
  SINKING FUND (TERMINABLE ANNUITIES).
  SINKING FUND (TERMINABLE ANNUITIES).
PEACE TREATIES.
  AMERICAN ARMY OF OCCUPATION.
  AMERICAN ARMY OF OCCUPATION.
  REICHSBANX.
  REICHSBANX.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  COTTON MANUFACTURES (EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES).
  COTTON MANUFACTURES (EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES).
  CONDENSED MILK (IMPORTS).
  CONDENSED MILK (IMPORTS).
  MARSHALL SHIPPING COMPANY, LIMITED (WAR CLAIM).
  MARSHALL SHIPPING COMPANY, LIMITED (WAR CLAIM).
TRANSPORT.
  ROAD WORKS (CRUDE GAS TAR).
  ROAD WORKS (CRUDE GAS TAR).
  RAILWAY CHARGES.
  RAILWAY CHARGES.
  WELSH CHURCH ACT.
  WELSH CHURCH ACT.
  ILLEGAL TRAWLING, SCOTLAND.
  ILLEGAL TRAWLING, SCOTLAND.
  KENSINGTON GARDENS (ROUND POND).
  KENSINGTON GARDENS (ROUND POND).
  VILLAGE CLUBS' ASSOCIATION (GRANT).
  VILLAGE CLUBS' ASSOCIATION (GRANT).
  WIRELESS BROADCASTING.
  WIRELESS BROADCASTING.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

RAILWAYS (AUTHORISATION OF WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to extend temporarily the powers of the Minister of Transport with respect to the authorisation of railway works, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Bill road 1a; and to be printed

FEES (INCREASE) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order).
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY): My Lords, the other day I stated that, in accordance with a pledge given in another place, I would introduce, an Amendment giving effect to a change in procedure which had been agreed to in the other House. I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 11 insert the following new clause:—
Amendment of Section 44.
(. In proviso (5) to Section forty-four of the Army Act (which prescribes the scale of punishment by courts martial) after the word "flogging" there shall be inserted the words "or attachment to a fixed object.")—(The Earl of Derby.)
LORD BUCKMASTER: I should like to ask what the Amendment is?
THE EARL OF DERBY: I explained it the other day. It is to do away with field punishment No. 1, which enabled you to tie a man to a fixed object. This can

821
be done away with by War Office Regulation, but it was urged that it should also be included in the Statute. For that purpose I have, with the agreement of the other House, thought it desirable to move this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I beg to make the Motion of which I have given Notice—namely, That it is desirable that a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to examine and report on any Bill or matter referred to them specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider with a view to reporting if necessary thereon any matter relating to Indian Affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India.
Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to make one or two brief remarks in explanation of this Motion. Let me, in the first place, say one word about the origin of this Joint Committee on Indian Affairs. The first reference made to such a Committee is in the Report on Indian Constitutional Reform, but the suggestion there is for the appointment of a Committee of the House of Commons. In the Report of the Joint Committee that dealt with the Government of India Bill of 1919, however, the idea is developed into a Standing Joint Committee of both Houses. The object with which that Joint Committee is to be set up is explained so well in that Report that I should like to read to the House the words of the Committee.
Speaking of the Bill of 1919, they Said:—
"The change which this Bill will make in the political structure and life of India is very important. It marks a great step on the path of self-government and it is a proof of the confidence reposed by His Majesty's Government in the loyalty, wisdom and capacity of our Indian fellow subjects. At the same time it points to the desirability of keeping Parliament in closer touch with Indian affairs than has recently been possible. The Committee accordingly proposes that a Standing Joint Committee should be appointed by both Houses of Par-
822
liament for that purpose. It should have no set Functions, but a purely advisory and consultative status, and among its tasks is one of high importance—the consideration of amendments to the Rules made under the Bill."
As the result of that advice this Joint Committee was set up and it functioned last year and the year before.
Looking into the matter in order that I might understand exactly what the reference to the Committee was, I discovered, rather to my surprise, that the Committee had no reference at all. I have consulted precedents on that subject and I understand that it is not only unusual, but unprecedented, to set up Committees or Joint Committees of both House of Parliament merely to consider generally the affairs of India or of any other place. It seems an extraordinary anomaly to set up a Committee without a reference. A Committee without a reference is like a soul without a body: it has no tenement through which it can act and naturally roves freely, and perhaps rather wildly, over very wide areas. I have been informed, in fact, by my noble friend Lord Islington, who was Chairman of the Committee, that, owing to this general freedom of the Committee, he found it rather difficult to limit the activities of its members in their desire to pasture rather freely on the extensive fields of Indian affairs.
But there is another anomaly about this Committee—namely, that it draws up its own reference. And, if it is an anomaly that a Committee should sit without a reference, it is even more of an anomaly that a Committee should draw up its own reference. And, with all respect to the Committee, I think its reference was drawn up rather freely. It enabled any member to raise any question connected with Indian administration, and I think there are certain risks and difficulties in a procedure of that kind. I will not say that it might to some extent approach to the French system of infringing upon the responsibility of Ministers, but it might have a tendency that way. And whether that system is a good or a had one as applicable to other countries, I think your Lordships will entirely agree with me that it ought not to be introduced by a side wind in the case of a particular Committee, but ought to be introduced, if at all, after careful consideration of the constitutional problems involved. There

823
is or might be another difficulty or danger n the way. If it were generally known in India that a Joint Committee of both Houses was examining into and reporting upon all sorts of administrative questions which are dealt with by the Government of India, it might raise some constitutional difficulty as to the extent to which Committees of the House of Commons really should deal with administrative affairs in India.
But, while I mention those two limitations, it seems to me that it is of very great value, not only for the Government of India and for the Houses of Parliament but also for the Secretary of State, that such a Committee should be established. You thus have a Standing Committee in which is concentrated a great deal of knowledge and information about India and specially fitted to be a sort of standing body to which all measures affecting India should be handed over for consideration and report. Further, any matter which either House of Parliament thinks should be referred to that Committee should stand so referred. But there is another consideration still. As your Lordships know, there are a great many members of this House who, having been Viceroys or Governors of Provinces, have a great knowledge of Indian affairs, and that knowledge might fairly be brought to bear to assist the Government and the Secretary of State on Indian matters. Some of that knowledge, however, must necessarily be not quite up to date, and I think it is a great advantage that a Secretary of State should be able to come before this Committee and post it up, if I may so express it, in what is happening in India in all the different provinces of administration, so that they may be able to apply the great knowledge that they have acquired of India with full information as to the recent developments that are taking place in that country.
You thus have a carefully instructed body of men in both Houses who, when debates on Indian subjects take place, are able to bring to bear in the consideration of Indian affairs not only their own intelligence or their ancient information, but fresh information, dovetailed into the knowledge which they have already gained of India. They thereby have a very considerable effect in organising, controlling, and guiding opinion in both Houses of Parliament as to the best way of conduct-
824
ing Indian affairs. I hope your Lordships will assent to this Motion because, in moving it in this form, I am merely trying to bring back the Standing Committee to the original intention of the Committee on whose recommendation it was set up, and to some extent to limit its functions to those which were intended by the. Joint Committee which advised its being set up.
Moved to resolve, That it is desirable that a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to examine and report on any Bill or matter referred to thorn specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider with a view to reporting if necessary thereon any matter relating to Indian Affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India.—(Viscount Peel.)
LORD ISLINGTON: My Lords, the Motion of the noble Viscount gives me the opportunity to say how much I welcome the amended form in which he is now presenting it to the House. I say this with a vivid recollection of the experiences of that Committee during the past two years when I had the honour to preside over it. It is true; as the noble Viscount said, that the Committee was appointed without any reference. It was set up as the result of a recommendation made by the Joint Committee presided over by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, which dealt with the Government of India Bill and reported to Parliament upon it. It was set up with a view of bringing about a closer connection between Parliament and India. Having no reference, it fell to the lot of that Committee when it was formed two years ago, to formulate its own regulations. The first two regulations were similar to those now embodied in the Motion, but the third regulation laid it down that any member of the Committee might suggest a topic for inquiry and that, if the majority of the Committee agreed to that particular topic being inquired into, that course should be taken.
I hold the view, which I think must be shared by many of my late colleagues, that this particular provision led us into a good deal of difficulty during the past two years. It certainly entailed on the members a great deal of work which proved in the result to be of a somewhat abortive character. It is the case with

825
Joint, Committees, as with all other Committees, that all their members are not always present when subjects of this character are brought up. The result in our case was that topics for examination were agreed to by the Committee when some of its members from this and the other House were not present. During the past two years we have ranged over several subjects. We dealt, first of all—properly and, I think, usefully dealt—with the Burma Government Bill. The Committee had been asked to draft a Bill for Parliament. The next topic that came before the Committee was the constitutional position of the various races in Kenya, which, as your Lordships are aware, is one of the most complex and pressing questions of to-day. There was a good deal of controversy as to whether that was a proper subject for the Committee to consider. However, the Committee decided by a majority to go into it. Speaking for myself—I know that some of my late colleagues may not agree—I rather think that the Report we made to Parliament on that subject was not without its uses although I grieve to see that Parliament did not recognise it as such and took no notice of it, nor did the Secretary of Star, for the Colonies notice it at all. I may say in parenthesis that the Committee recommended that a Commission should go out to Kenya to inquire, into the matter on the spot, and I cannot help thinking that had such a course been followed two years ago by a properly constituted Commission the difficulties which now confront my noble friend and the Government might not have been so acute. That in a way was an abortive inquiry although we sat for many weeks upon it.
Last year, the Committee decided first of all to examine into the British military establishment in India. It was very soon found by all the members, though some had fully recognised it at the start, that a subject of such tremendous complexity involving the consideration of questions of the highest policy could not fittingly be dealt with and reported upon to Parliament with any authority by a Committee sitting at Westminster. We reported, but, again, I think that Report was not read by many beyond the members of the joint Committee. The subject that we next took in hand, again on the initiative of the Com-
826
mittee, was the financial and general position of the Indian Civil Service. That, of course, was a subject which could not possibly be dealt with by a Joint Committee sitting in Westminster, because it had not access to the necessary information. While I was Chairman I was often approached by prominent Indians with reference to suggesting to the Committee that they should examine an equally complex question—the adjustment of the financial position of the Central and Provincial Governments of India.
I quote those instances to show that unless a Committee is carefully guided by the proper authority it may find itself confronted with subjects which very soon must be recognised by all the members to be beyond their power to deal with adequately or satisfactorily. I doubt whether there are many questions or problems—I refer especially to problems—in India which a Committee of this character can Usefully consider and report upon, because all these problems have become so localised in India, are so complex and so intricate as to require to be inquired into on the spot with all the best expert evidence and documents accessible to the Committee, none of which can be had in Westminster.
It may be that when the Secretary of State for India makes from time to time a general survey of the situation in India, the Committee may find that there is a subject which it will be a public service to bring to the notice of Parliament and, under this revised Resolution, that can be done in the days to come. I very much welcome this limitation of the powers of the Committee because it places that body on a proper constitutional basis. After all, the Joint Committee is appointed by Parliament, and Parliament is the proper body to direct it as to its investigations and work. It is quite right that the Secretary of State should give the Committee from time to time all the information available, and upon this, of course, the Committee can report to Parliament and leave Parliament to decide whether it is a public service to take cognisance of the Report.
The limitation of this power will also be welcomed, I cannot help thinking, in India, because as India proceeds along its constitutional path I am sure that all who are connected with it, whether Govern-

827
ments, legislatures or members of the public, will look very jealously to Parliament at home to see that no undue interference takes place in regard to subjects with which it has become their proper province to deal. They would certainly resent any Report to Parliament by a Joint Committee based upon what very often would have to be inadequate and incomplete information. The Resolution as now drafted will obviate those difficulties, and I feel that the position of the Chairman of the Committee will correspondingly be easier than it was in the past. I welcome the Motion in its present form.
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I should like to endorse what was said by my noble friend opposite about the limitation which has been put upon the subjects for discussion by this Committee, because I certainly felt at the end of last Session that we had ranged with very little use over too wide a field. The subjects concerned with the administration of India are wide enough in all conscience to occupy a Joint Committee for many years, but if, in addition to the subjects of the administration of India itself, are to be added the affairs of Indians in any part of the world your Lordships can understand, without my elaborating the point, how immensely the field is widened. That is what happened, as the noble Lord has described, in regard to the subject of the affairs of the Indian colonists in Kenya.
Having accepted the noble Viscount's invitation, subject to your Lordships' approval, for service again on this Committee, I am thankful for the wording of this Resolution. It properly limits the matters which we can be called upon to discuss, and, therefore, we shall be the better able to concentrate upon one or more of the more useful subjects. The only apprehension I have is that the Secretary of State himself, who has a very wide field of reference, may call upon us to report upon any matter relating to Indian affairs, and that may, of course, include the affairs of Indians outside India. I can only say that I deprecate anything of that kind. I sincerely trust that the Secretary of State will curb his desire to refer to us as much as possible, and will confine himself to the affairs of India itself, and not to those of Indians in any part of the world.
VISCOUNT CHELMSFORD: My Lords, as one of the members of the Committee I welcome, with my noble friends, the proposal which my noble friend Lord Peel has brought forward. There is one point with regard to the work of the Committee on which I should like to lay stress. This Committee originated in the Report which Mr. Montagu and I made on the constitutional affairs of India, and the idea underlying our proposal was this. There were few Members in the other place who were acquainted with the affairs of India, and we felt that it would be a very great advantage to India and to the other place if a certain number of Members of that House were able to meet with the Secretary of State for India, and have brought before them and discuss with him questions relating to India. When it came to the Committee under my noble friend Lord Selborne, that Committee was enlarged by Members from the House of Commons into a Joint Committee of both Houses. I may say that when we made that Report we did not suggest the House of Lords, because we thought that there were many of your Lordships familiar with the affairs of India who could speak of them in this House with knowledge and large experience.
I recognise, however, what Lord Peel has said, that it is of very great value to us who have been in India to have our knowledge brought up-to-date by contact with the Secretary of State within the Committee itself, and that is the point I wish to emphasise to my noble friend Lord Peel. I hope the terms of reference will not be regarded by any of his successors as precluding them from giving the Committee information from time to time on questions relating to India. I am sure that will be of the very greatest value to the Committee; indeed, I, as part-author of the suggestion, regard it as the most important part of the work which this Committee is to do.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, may I say one word in reply to the points raised? I am very much obliged to your Lordships for the way in which you have received these suggestions regarding the limitations and activities of the Committee, and I can assure my noble friend Lord Harris that I will try to use such powers

829
as may be granted me by this House with great discretion, and not load upon his shoulders the burden of examining into illimitable details. As regards the observations of my noble friend Lord Chelmsford, I agree that it was intended the Secretary of State should be in touch with the Committee, and place before them information which would bring their already great knowledge of Indian subjects up-to-date. Nor do I think there need be any anxiety on that account. As my noble friend knows, this Motion is moved every Session, and it is always possible, if the reference is too narrow or too wide, to alter it in accordance with the experience obtained.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DEPORTATIONS TO IRELAND.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL rose to call attention to the recent deportations from this country to Ireland. The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Notice which appears on the Paper in my name expresses my desire to call your Lordships' attention to the recent deportations from this country to Ireland. Those deportations are not now so recent as when I put the Notice down. I waited some time before putting it down in the hope that some more able constitutionalist might raise the points I desired to raise. Subsequently, the Easter Recess intervened, so that the question comes on rather late. That, I think, is no matter for regret. I am glad that the subject should come on now when the position of the Free State appears to be definitely improved as compared with what it was at the time when these deportations took place. I hope to make clear to your Lordships before I sit down that, although I think there are questions of considerable importance to be raised, there is nothing that I should be less willing to do than to hamper the new Government in Ireland in any way in exercising its functions and in putting down the rebellion which exists in that country.
Those of your Lordships whose newspapers thought fit to report the fact—and it is rather an interesting matter. I think, that not all of them did so on the first occasion—must, I think, have been rather startled, and must have rubbed your eyes on the morning after these events, when
830
you saw that a great swoop had been made by many hundred policemen all over England, that something like one hundred people had been collected in the dead of night, rushed off to Holyhead, put upon a Government transport or a gunboat, or some official vessel, and carried off to Ireland without trial and without examination. Those are measures to which we were hardly accustomed even during the war. We had, it is true, internment of aliens, but we did not have wholesale arrests and deportations of this character. So far as I recollect the largest deportations were such as you could have counted almost on the fingers of one hand, made at some periods from Glasgow.
The legal question is one with which I do not propose to trouble your Lordships this afternoon. The action purports to be taken under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act. That Act was passed at a time when we in this country were responsible for the administration of Ireland, and when it was our duty to keep order there. That relation between us and that country has since then entirely changed, and what is rather vaguely called Dominion status has been granted to Southern Ireland. It is argued with a great deal of force that in consequence of that change this Act, which was passed to assist us in maintaining order, is impliedly spent. I do not propose to pursue the legal considerations very far. They would involve much more study than I have given to the matter, and I think the decision is one to which it would be very difficult to come. There is the further reason for not pursuing it that it is being raised by a case which is now before the Court, which in due time will decide it in the only way in which it can be decided for us—namely, by the legal tribunals of this country. Therefore the casual opinion of an individual upon the subject ceases to be of any particular importance.
I ant proposing to treat the subject today on the assumption and the footing that these powers did exist, and that they were still in force. And I propose to ask your Lordships whether it is not a very serious thing that such powers should be exercised, and whether, if they are exercised, they should not be exercised with more precautions and under somewhat different conditions from those in which they were exercised in this case?

831
What exactly happened? First of all, how were the persons selected who were to be arrested in the middle of the night? A good deal of light has been thrown on the subject since these deportations took place, and so far as I can make out these were persons who were upon some list furnished by the Irish Free State to the Home Secretary and that the Home Secretary acted upon that list. A list of prescribed persons was presented to the Government here and the Home Secretary simply said: "I will, on your request, arrest these people and hand them over to you." If that were the case, and there is some reason to suppose that it was, it hardly seems to be within the spirit, even if it is within the letter, of the Act, supposing the Act to be still in force. Under the Act the Home Secretary has himself to be satisfied that these are people proper to be arrested, and it is hardly possible to be so satisfied by getting a list, of names prepared by another authority which is not subject to the Home Secretary, and which has not ascertained the facts, an independent authority—namely, the Irish Free State.
Having arrested these people what does the Home Secretary proceed to do? He proceeds to take them out or his jurisdiction to a part of the world where the writ of the King's Bench does not run, and where he, the Home Secretary, has no further control. We have been told by Mr. Bridgman, the Home Secretary, that the arrangement is that they shall not be tried or executed, or in any way dealt with except by internment in the Irish Free State, without his consent and approval. I rather imagine that he has also been promised that they shall not be retained if he asks for them. In fact, I understand that two or three have been here already before the Advisory Committee in order to present their case. Let me ask one question on this. Does this rather peculiar arrangement between the Home Secretary and a foreign Government exist in writing or is it a mere verbal arrangement? If it is merely a verbal promise on both sides in what a remarkable position do we find ourselves. Nothing that was even done in the time of the Lettres de cachet was more autocratic than this curious action of the Home Secretary in seizing a number of people here and handing them over to another authority outside his jurisdiction.
What is to happen supposing either of the parties to this verbal arrangement dies, or supposing their recollections of it differ? One finds that recollections of a verbal arrangement do differ sometimes. Then there is another point: What is the position of these people when they have reached the Irish Free State? Assume everything in favour of both Governments, the Home Secretary here and the Irish Free State, we know perfectly well that unfortunately Ireland is in a very disturbed condition and that discipline, even in the Irish Free State Army, is not all that could be wished. And we know that people do get killed in Ireland without executive authority and without due course of law. These people who have been taken to Ireland are exposed to the risk of being shot accidentally or by some person in excess of his authority, and I do not know what right we have in this country to seize people and deport them to another country where the guarantees of the Government cannot altogether be relied upon.
If you can properly do this—I do not mean legally and under the Act but as a proper constitutional thing—there is nothing to prevent you seizing people and deporting them to Canada, or Australia, or any of our self-governing Dominions. If you can make a private arrangement between the heads of Departments in the Dominions and the Mother Country and simply hand over to them a number of people, then the liberty of the subject is gone. It has always seemed to me that the so-called Conservative and Constitutional Party are very often the last people who are to be trusted on questions of constitutional history and the liberty of the subject. They are apt—not perhaps noble Lords on the Front Bench, who know too well how dangerous such a course would be, but their followers—to assume that to act with the high hand and in this dramatic manner is the way to keep order and restore peace; the way to keep a country governed as it should be governed. I suggest to them that in that consideration they are entirely mistaken. Once you go outside the due course of law—and I am tempted to stray from my subject and to consider who it was that first defied the forces of the Crown in Ireland and was, in my judgment, largely responsible for the present condition of that country—you open the door to the mere exercise of force, and it does not

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follow that that force may not be exercised, not by those who constitute the Government at the time, but by those who are most numerous. That seems to me to be the best practical reason for keeping to a careful and regular form and order in carrying out matters of this sort.
Your Lordships may be inclined to think that all these people who have been deported are people about whom there is no real doubt; that, however right I may be on the constitutional point, they are all people who were smuggling arms, or preparing bombs, or getting ready to wage a war in this country similar to that irregular war which has been going on in Ireland. But that is not the case, and it cannot be suggested that it is the case. Let me read you a portion of a communication that I have received regarding one of these desperate villains; It is as follows:—
"My daughter Grace, aged 24, a school teacher, born in London, was taken from her bed at 2 a.m. by four men, who took her to the local police station. When we asked for her some hours later we were told she had left there and they would not tell us where she had been taken. The following Wednesday we had a few lines from her saying she was in Mountjoy prison. It is now twelve days since I have received any news of her. I sent a prepaid telegram asking if she was ill. I have had no reply."
These are very drastic measures—to snatch people from their beds, whisk them away at night, let their relations learn, after the lapse of some days, Chat they are interned in another country; and then interrupt communications between them.
I know that the conditions of these people have been improved of late. I understand they are now allowed to communicate with their relations, but I suggest that these are precedents which should not be followed and that if it be the fact that the Act is in force, then the sooner it is repealed the better. I may be asked, as I notice Mr. Ramsay MacDonald was asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Long of Wraxall, what the Labour Party would have done if they were in office; whether they would not have been willing to assist the Irish Free State. I am perfectly certain that every friend of law and order would have desired to do anything possible to assist the Irish Free State, but it is very doubtful assistance to do things of this kind which are likely to have bad reactions. And I would at least suggest that,
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assuming that it actually was proper that these people should be arrested—and it is already pretty freely admitted that as to at least fifty per cent. of them there was no real ease—at least they might have been kept and interned in this country where the writ of the Courts could run, and where they could have such legal remedies as are left to them.
In the very discussion in which the legality of this Statute is at issue, it was pointed out, I think by the Judge of First Instance, that he was asked to direct the Writ of Habeas Corpus to the. Home Secretary but at the same time he was told that the Home Secretary had not the custody of the body, and that the custody of the body was in some alien country and under some alien control. That at once makes it apparent that the Courts are impotent and cannot act in this matter. I think I am correct in saying that it has already been decided in Ireland that this Act is not in force there, and that you cannot take proceedings under it. It comes therefore to this: that these people are detained by the Free State to whom they have been handed over, one might almost say as a personal favour by the Home Secretary of this country, without any trial and without his being personally satisfied that there was any case against them. It seems to me that this kind of thing is likely to do more harm than good, and I should be very glad to get an assurance from the Government that, such action will not be taken in the future.
If there were any evidence against any of these people they could have been put on their trial here. They could have been put on their trial here if they were making bombs; they could have been put on their trial here if they had been in the illegal possession of arms, and I think I am right in saying that they could have been put on their trial here if they were preparing to levy war against the Free State. Consequently, if there was any evidence against them they could have been tried here, and I suggest that since they have been arrested it is only proper that they should be brought to trial. We in this country are not in a state of war, and I hope it is not necessary for us at present to take such drastic action as might be necessary, and as, in fact, is necessary, for the Free State, which is in the throes of a conflict the issue of which is as yet uncertain, although, as I said

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before, I am very glad that since I put my Question down the prospects of the Irish Free State have very much improved, and I do not think that anything that can be said here will embarrass them or make their position worse. Moreover, they have done nothing contrary to their own law or contrary to their powers. It is to what we have done that I desire to call your Lordships' attention, and I should be glad to have some assurance from His Majesty's Government on these points.
I should like to repeat one or two of the specific questions which I have put to His Majesty's Government. In the first place, did the Home Secretary satisfy himself in the case of these various people that there was a case against them upon which he was prepared to act, or did he merely take the names as given to him by the Free State? In the second place, what reason was there for deporting them to the Free State instead of interning them where our Courts could have jurisdiction? And finally, I should be glad to have an assurance that this sort of action will not be continued, because I can assure your Lordships that it amounts, in my view at any rate, to lawlessness, and lawlessness by those in high places is likely to lead to very much worse lawlessness, and worse considered lawlessness, by others in other places who see that example.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, before the Government answer is given I should like to say a word or two, because I desire to ask one or two questions in addition to those which have been asked by the noble Earl. I shall be very careful to confine myself within the limits which he has very wisely laid down and not to say anything about the law as it is, because I believe that there is at the present time a case actually being argued, or at any rate a case which has just been argued, in our Court of Appeal in reference to which no decision has been given. I desire at the outset therefore to say that I do not intend to refer to the law as it is.
The first question I want to ask the noble Lord who is going to reply is whether the offences were such that the persons deported could not have been placed on their trial in this country. If they are amenable to the tribunals of this country for offences committed here, the first step obviously might have been
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to arraign them before the tribunal of their country for offences committed against the Government here. Many suggestions which have been made regarding these deported individuals show that they might have been guilty of offences committed in this country and against the Government of this country. The, first question, therefore, that I wish to ask is whether the noble Lord can assure the House that it was necessary that these deportations should take place on the ground that the persons who were deported could not have been dealt with, and dealt with quite practically and properly, under the ordinary law of this country.
Very shortly after these deportations took place my attention was called to two or three cases in which it was alleged that there must have been some mistake regarding the person deported. I happened to be in Manchester not long ago, and I was asked by several persons there how it was that a Manchester merchant, apparently of entirely unexceptionable character and against whom, so far as was known, no charge had ever been made, had been deported under conditions such as those which the noble Earl has described; that is to say, taken out of his bed at midnight and sent over to Ireland. At that time the complaint as further made that, although it was conceded that his solicitor might have access to him, it was in fact not allowed. I believe that what the noble Earl has said is perfectly right and that difficulties of that kind have now been removed. But the difficulty did exist at the time, and it is an extremely serious thing that an English citizen against whom no charge has been made and, as in this case, against whom it was alleged that no charge could be made, should be taken out of his bed by the police under no ordinary warrant such as would have allowed such action in this country, and taken away for deportation to Ireland.
The next question I wish to raise is this. I noticed the other day in the Press—and the noble Lord will be able to tell me whether it is accurate—that the case of a school teacher, apparently a young girl in Liverpool, who had been deported, was brought before what is known as the Advisory Committee. I do not think that an Advisory Committee is any alternative for our ordinary legal process. At any rate, she has been

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brought before the Advisory Committee, and so far as I followed the case the Advisory Committee determined in her favour, whereupon, haying been in prison for five weeks and having lost her position as a school teacher, she vas discharged, I think at Wormwood Scrubbs, the prison to which, I presume, she had been brought in order that the Advisory Committee might consider the case. That is a charge against a young girl in the position of a school teacher for which no primâ facie excuse could be offered. What I want, to ask the Government is this. Assuming a case of that kind has occurred, are they prepared to give recompense, and, if so, in what form and to what extent will recompense be given? I am assuming that the deportation was legally earned out. If so, it is obvious that she has no recompense from any source unless the Government provide it for her.
I do not want to go so far as the noble Earl went when he said that fifty per cent. of the cases would come within a category of that kind, but I do say, from information that I have and which I will give to the noble Lord if he desires it, that there are a considerable number of cases in which the Government acted upon what has been found to be inaccurate information and that the reasons for deportation cannot be sustained. I do not wonder at that, because if you once depart from ordinary legal process in order to ascertain whether anyone is guilty or not, you really have to rely upon what is practically spy evidence. It is no good disguising the fact that the ordinary rule is that anyone charged with an offence in this country is entitled to meet his amuse' face to face, and is further entitled to be regarded as innocent until the opposite is proved. Now in this case he does not know who his accuser is.
It is all very well to speak of the Home Office, but how can the Home Office obtain information except through what I may call spy evidence—evidence which, before all others, ought either to be rejected altogether or only accepted with the greatest, precautions and after the most careful cross-examination? I am not now speaking in abuse of the Home Secretary. That is the fact. When the Executive acts upon secret information, and there is no open inquiry in Court, it does act on evidence derived from spy sources,
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because it cannot, obtain any other, and that is sometimes put forward as an excuse why it is not made public. I should like to abolish spies and spy evidence, and the whole system, from top to bottom.
The next question is a very important one, and quite apart from any legal question. It is a question of discretion. I should like the noble Lord to explain how these people were deported out of this country. I ask your Lordships to consider how the matter stands. An ordinary English citizen, without any accusation made against him, without any knowledge of the charges made against him, is suddenly, in the middle of the night, taken out of his bed, and not only taken out of his bed in order that further inquiry may be made in this country, but taken out of his bed and deported to another country. It makes no difference whether it is to the Irish Free State or to any other country. You might have deported him to Germany, or France, or any other country, on the same pretext, apparently.
As the noble Earl has done, I desire to relieve myself of any prejudice in this matter. No one desires more fully than I do that there should be order in Ireland. No one desires more than I do that the Irish Free State should have every opportunity as regards putting down rebellion in Ireland; but that is no reason why the right of an English citizen in this country should be disregarded to the extent of deportation. Why should there he deportation? If there were fears that these people wore doing injury in Ireland—there is no proof of it at present, so far as I know; none has been disclosed—they could have been interned in this country. And as one who has been to Ireland lately I should like to corroborate what the noble Earl has said. What control have we, or what guarantee, that these people, so deported, perhaps under a mistake, are safe under the conditions which prevail in Ireland at the present time? That is a very serious matter when dealing with the question of personal liberty; when dealing with a system of Executive action which has been disallowed in this country for centuries, and in respect of which the great struggles for liberty arose in this country.

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It may be—I am not discussing that point now, but am carefully avoiding it—it may be that the Regulations made under the Act of 1920 justify precautions being taken, but they do not justify, necessarily, deportation or these other matters, although, of course, assuming as I do that the law has been rightly put in force, they cannot be questioned. If the Executive have the power what they do cannot be questioned, and one is driven back to asking them whether the Executive, or the Government, in a particular case, have really acted with proper prudence.
The last question which I should like to ask is in continuation of what was said by the noble Earl—How were these deportees selected? That is a very important matter indeed, because when you come down to bedrock, where people, protesting their innocence, have been subjected to conduct of this kind, one wants to know what is the information on which the Home Secretary acted. One wants to know whether the Home Secretary made an independent inquiry himself; what were the precautions he took to satisfy himself that the information brought to his notice was really adequate. Of course, to attempt anything like a trial was really impossible, because procedure of this kind makes it impossible, but after all, if we are to have such bureaucratic action, we are entitled to make it as sure as possible that it is not used in too autocratic a manner. I think that bureaucracy is far more dangerous than autocracy. We are not likely to suffer so much in this country from autocracy as from bureaucracy, but our safeguard, and only safeguard, is by open inquiry in either House of Parliament, in order to make sure that power of this kind is used in a proper manner. I do not wish to enter upon the legality of the matter, but I thought it right to ask my questions before the noble Lord replied for the Government.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR): My Lords, the question raised by the noble Earl has been already probed, examined and debated in another place. I must, therefore, apologise to your Lordships for travelling over much familiar ground, as this is the first reference made to the matter in this House. What are the
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facts of the case? The implacable enemies of the Irish Free State Government were using this country as a jumping-off ground from which to launch attacks on the Free State. These persons were abusing the hospitality of this country by plotting, in the comparative security and shelter of these shores, for the destruction of the Irish Free State. They had formed themselves into a military organisation, under a commanding officer, and were collecting arms and ammunition for transmission to the irregular forces in Ireland, and, in addition to conspiring against their own country, they were further abusing our hospitality by scheming to involve us in the same disorders.
The Free State Government brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government that the harassing campaign of arson and murder which was devastating Ireland was, to an important extent, being organised and fomented from this side. They asked His Majesty's Government to take steps to counteract these baleful activities by allowing the internment of the leading conspirators. His Majesty's Government consented, and it was held desirable that such internment should take place in their own country and under the supervision of the Free State Government, firstly, because the conspiracy chiefly affected Ireland and was directed against the Irish Government; secondly, because the internment of Irish in this country would lead to misrepresentation in other lands, more particularly as the conduct which made such treatment necessary was primarily directed against another Government and another people; and thirdly, because it was more agreeable to Irish sentiment that these persons should be handed over to the custody of the Free State Government.
Altogether 110 persons of Irish nationality or Irish descent, many well known at the Home Office, were arrested in England and Scotland and transferred to Ireland. This action was taken under the Act referred to by the noble Earl, the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, 1920, which provided that where it appears to the Home Secretary and Secretary for Scotland that for the security and restoration or maintenance of order in Ireland it is expedient that a person who is suspected of acting or of having acted,

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or of being about to act, in a manner prejudicial to the restoration or maintenance of order in Ireland, shall be subjected to such obligations and restrictions as are mentioned in the Act, the Secretaries may by order require that person forthwith, or from time to time, to be interned in such place as may be specified in the Order.
Action was only taken after consultation with the Law Officers of the Crown, who were convinced of the legality of the proposed measure, nor has its legality been seriously questioned by any lawyer in the other House. The expediency of intervention by His Majesty's Government was also examined. It was felt that the Government, having a knowledge of this conspiracy, having received information from the Irish Free State that their efforts to restore peace in Ireland were being hampered and nullified by the ceaseless activities of a semi-military organisation established in Great Britain, and the Government having also in its possession material clearly indicating the existence of this military organisation controlled by a person calling himself Officer Commanding, Britain, were bound to take action.
Could it possibly be argued that His Majesty's Government were to allow this kind of thing to go on, that they should have permitted this widespread and subterranean rebellion to grow in strength, to become more firmly rooted? Were they to allow it to go on till it burst into open conflagration, involving loss of life and property, or till it could only be suppressed by armed force? The dastardly murder of Field-Marshal Sir Henry Wilson shows to what lengths an inflamed and distorted political passion, working on ill-balanced minds, will go. And that distinguished man was only one of hundreds of victims whose blood has bespattered the altar of Irish nationality. It is surely the duty of every civilised Government to put forth all its strength, to use all its powers, to suppress machinations which lead to such calamities, to check the propagation of incitements to desperate courses, to throw out of gear the machinery which manufactures crimes and criminals. The prevention of crime is a greater achievement than its punishment, and we have convincing proof that this has been the result of the blow dealt to this dangerous conspiracy by our swift and decisive action.
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At the same time ample precautions have been taken on behalf of the deportees. An Advisory Committee has been specially appointed to receive any representations from interned persons against the provisions of the Order, and already three appeals have come before it. One applicant has already been released on the grounds of ill-health, and on his giving a promise to abstain from all attacks on the Irish Free State. Altogether 32 internees appealed, but all but three withdrew their appeals. Apprehension has been expressed lest severer measures be dealt out to internees by the Irish Free State, or lest they be arraigned and tried in Ireland on more serious charges. But the Irish Free State has pledged itself to keep them from harm and that no proceedings shall be taken against the deported persons without the consent of the Home Secretary and Secretary for Scotland. In that case we should, of course, have to be satisfied before giving consent that a primâ facie case existed, and naturally that consent would never be given without consultation with the Law Officers. Should consent be given, the person to be tried will be placed in exactly the same position, and dealt with in the same way, as if he had not been deported. If an order for internment is revoked the person interned will be at once released.
It may still be argued that the Irish Free State Government will not abide by its pledges, but as we have so recently handed over the whole of Southern Ireland to the Free State, with the warm approval of the noble Earl and his friends, it is scarcely befitting to suggest that, having trusted them with so much, we can now trust them so little, or to conceive it possible that the Irish Government will break faith in respect to its first contract entered into with the British Government.
EARL RUSSELL: The noble Viscount will please recollect that I made no such suggestion. I never suggested for one moment that the Irish Free State would repudiate any of its undertakings, but I did ask a question which the noble Viscount is not answering and that is whether these undertakings were purely verbal, or whether they were in writing.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: The undertaking is a binding undertaking, and it is one which the Government has no doubt will be observed.
EARL RUSSELL: In writing?
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I have given my answer. Moreover, as I have already said, the Free State has already demonstrated its good faith by releasing one of the deportees. That the arrest produced the desired end of checking the activities and frustrating the plans of the conspirators is proved by intercepted communications (Irish Republican Army) of which I give these quotations:—Officer Commanding, Britain, wrote to Chief of Staff, Irish Republican Army, Dublin, on March 20. 1923, reporting on the arrests and said—
"This seriously affects every area. Yon knew the possibilities of operations before. Judge for yourself the possibilities now."
The reply on April 5 said—
"Our organisation appeared to be pretty hardly hit by arrests."
In another letter dated April 5 to Officer Commanding, Britain, the Adjutant General, Irish Republican Army, Dublin, said—
"When he was here Adjutant was not quite certain of the actual number of arrests, but made it quite clear of course that serious disorganisation would result."
And in a report to the Chief of Staff, Irish Republican Army, dated April 5, it, is reported—
"I am afraid the chances of operations in Britain are now negligible—if not altogether impossible."
These extracts prove my contentions that this conspiracy was widespread and dangerous, that it aimed at assisting rebellion in Ireland and at creating disorder and trouble in this country, and that the arrest of its leaders has dealt a severe and irretrievable blow to the dangerous conspiracy for the suppression of which the Irish Free State sought, the co-operation of His Majesty's Government.
The circumstances of the case are novel because everything connected with the new conditions of self-government in Ireland is necessarily novel. Each situation has to be dealt with as it arises by the light of common sense. Great Britain must treat the Free State as she would any other Dominion. But where the Irish Free State is concerned, men's
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judgments are apt to be warped and confused by the memory of ancient controversies and by the strange and distressing developments which have followed on the grant of self-government. Yet, after all, we must hold fast to this: That if she has Dominion status—and she has it—her Government must be treated with the same regard and her representations must receive the same consideration as would be the case were we dealing with any of the Governments of the long-established Dominions. Your Lordships will agree that were inimical forces to be organised against Canada or Australia here in the heart of the Empire, did men congregate here for the purpose of plotting against their Governments, were arms being collected here to be used for the destruction of their civilisation, it is inconceivable that the Government of this country could stand idly by and allow such activities to proceed.
The proximity of Ireland greatly aggravates the evil that can be wrought against her from these shores, and if such active hostilities were allowed to go unchecked, if full latitude were given to disaffected persons to carry on active warfare under the protection of the British law, such nefarious practices would he stimulated. Conspirators when hard pressed in Ireland would merely have to cross the channel and shift their domicile in order to renew their malpractices in perfect security. That would mean that this country would become a sanctuary for evil doers, and a state of things would arise subversive of our own peace and destructive of all hope of the establishment of stable, peaceful conditions in the Free State of Ireland.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I am sure we have all listened with great interest to the statement made by the noble Viscount, but I think he will realise that he has not really answered the questions which were asked by the noble Earl nor the arguments by which those questions were supported. I am bound to say that the last statement which was made by the noble Viscount filled me with alarm. He seems to contemplate that the system of law under which, and under which alone, these arrests are justified is going to form a permanent part of the Constitution of this country. I can only say that I believe the people of this

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country would almost unanimously repudiate such a proposition. I know that in these times our old liberties and charters are often looked upon rather lightly, but the rights of a roan in this country not to he arrested on suspicion, not to be imprisoned without trial, and not to be punished without sentence, are valuable rights which, I think, ought not to be ignored as they have been wholly ignored in the speech of the noble Viscount.
After all, if his case is right, and if the authorities here knew that people were organising here and plotting nefariously against the well-being of a friendly part of our Dominions, their remedy was clear—to bring them to trial. Witnesses are not afraid to speak in an English court and English Judges are not afraid of passing sentence. Why were they not tried here if the case against them is so clear as the noble Viscount makes out? If the case against them is so clear, the danger of this procedure becomes manifest. If you arrest upon suspicion your suspicions may be ill-founded and you may be arresting innocent men who have no chance whatever of any redress. I am bound to say that to tell a man who has not committed an offence that he has been arrested because he is suspected by somebody, he does not know by whom, of having done something, he does not know what, and that he is permitted to go and make a case before an Advisory Tribunal, is to substitute for the law of this country something which, unless the feeling of the people has considerably changed, I do not think they will accept for a moment.
When I have said that, I am not at all prepared to say that there may not be circumstances connected with this particular event which may have afforded some authority and warrant for what was done. All I say is that they have not been put forward by the noble Viscount, and when this matter is raised, as the noble Viscount has pointed out, for the first time in this House, I cannot help wishing that it could have been found possible to make a defence which was less inconsistent with the constitutional privileges which some of those on this side of the House at any rate value very highly.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I cannot agree that what the noble Viscount has said is in any case an answer to my
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questions. He said that this matter had been discussed ad nauseam, and he gave us what appeared to be a mere piece of rhetoric. My questions have not been dealt with, and in the circumstances I shall be compelled to place them on the Paper again. In that case, I will give them a more specific form in order that the noble Viscount may know what they are.
THE LORD CEANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, may I say one word in reference to this matter? As your Lordships know, and have been reminded to-day, this whole matter is now being discussed in the Courts. An appeal was taken to the Court of Appeal in England, and was argued yesterday, and, I think, further argued to-day. In that condition of things it would he most improper for me, and, indeed, impossible for me or any member of the Government, to discuss the points of law and the points connected with law which have been raised in this debate to-day. I venture to think that it would have been better had the debate been postponed: but, of course, the noble Earl was within his rights in bringing the matter forward to-day. In doing so he knew perfectly well that he brought it forward in such conditions that it was impossible for us to answer the whole ease he was expeeted to make, and did make.
I have only one other observation to make. I am entirely in accord with my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster in the general statement which he made. There is in this country a very deep attachment to our old privileges under which in ordinary conditions no man can be arrested on mere suspicion, or, if he is so 'arrested, the suspicion must as soon as possible be brought to the test of a judicial investigation. But I must remind your Lordships that the circumstances are very unusual; so unusual that so recently as 1920 Parliament passed this Statute which has been referred to in this debate. Parliament said that if the Secretary of-State had reason to suspect that things were going on in this country directed against law and order in Southern Ireland, this step might be taken. When I say that, I am not, of course, dealing with the legal point; I am putting it in general terms. My object is to show

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that there were wholly unusual conditions which are dealt with by wholly unusual steps.
This measure will work itself out within a very short time. When that time comes—and the noble Earl himself says he expects it will not be long—when order becomes restored in Southern Ireland, then not only will these exceptional measures be no longer likely to be used, but the whole facts respecting these persons can be disclosed to the House. I intervened only for the purpose of saying that it really is impossible to give the noble Earl a more detailed answer than has been given to-day. I think the noble Viscount has shown pretty clearly that the effect of the measures has at least been to stop a dangerous conspiracy, and possibly to hasten the day when order will be restored in Ireland.

NEWSPAPER REPORTS OF LAW CASES.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I desire to ask His Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to the undue publicity which has been given in certain sections of the Press to indecent details of certain recent cases in the Law Courts, and whether they will introduce legislation to deal with the matter. For a long time past the publication of disgusting details of divorce and other cases has been made a feature in a certain section of the Press. The majority of the newspapers of this country report these cases with decency and restraint. There is, however, a minority which offend not only against good taste but against public morals, and also against what is, I believe, the intention of the law.
The Royal Commission on Divorce, which reported in 1912, investigated all these questions very fully indeed, and their Report deals thoroughly with them. Lord Alverstone, the then Lord Chief Justice, giving evidence before the Commission, made the following remarks:
"The mischief done to the young is incalculable. particularly to boys and girls between the age of fourteen and eighteen. The Commission has had accounts, I believe true accounts, of the terrible extent to which immorality does exist between people of that age. It is largely promoted by this
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sort of publication. Ideas are put into their minds, and there is nothing to be gained by it."
Later he said:
"It is not necessary in the administration of justice that it should he done."
Another witness, Mr. Peacock, who was the Chief Constable of Manchester, and appeared as President of the Chief Constables' Association, went so far as to tell the Commissioners that as a result of his experience in coming into close contact with the evils, he was in favour of the total prohibition of all reports of divorce cases of any kind. In that view he was expressing the opinion, so he said, of ninety-seven out of ninety-eight Chief Constables. I do not mention that as being a view with which I agree. I do not think many people want to see these reports totally prohibited, but I do say that it is very strong evidence of the kind of harm which such reports must have done.
There were also before the Commisssion a number of witnesses connected with the Press. Every one of them agreed that the publication of minute details of such evidence was an evil. These Press witnesses also laid great stress on the fact that while the abuse was mainly confined to papers of a certain class, at the same time the competition of the less scrupulous newspapers compelled the better class ones to publish more than they otherwise would do. It is worth noting that twelve witnesses connected with the Press appeared before the Commission, and that they all agreed that this matter was an evil. No single witness appeared, whether connected with the Press or not, who expressed the contrary view, although, in the words of the Report, Section 492—
"Efforts were made to obtain the attendance of witnesses to whom questions might have been directed with regard to Sunday and other weekly publications, but we have not been able to secure their attendance."
The Report of the Commission sums the matter up as follows:—
"We have been greatly impressed by the evidence which has been laid before us as to the corrupting and demoralising consequences which follow from an excess of publicity of this class of case."
That is a quotation from the Majority Report, but it happens to be one of the matters on which the Majority and Minority Reports were in agreement.

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That was the state of affairs in 1912. There certainly has not been any improvement since.
There are only two reasons, so far as I know, which can be urged in favour of the continuance of the present state of affairs. One is that this publicity exercises a deterrent effect on the commission of acts of immorality. Secondly, there is the consideration that it is undesirable in the public interest to interfere with the freedom of the Press. With regard to this deterrent effect, I know no conclusive evidence one way or the other. The witnesses before the Divorce Commission were divided on the subject. It is really a matter of opinion. I think a good many of your Lordships will agree with my view, which is that such deterrent effect will act rather in the direction of making people more careful not to be found out rather than in the direction of preventing them from committing such acts.
But granting that a reasonable publicity does produce a salutary effect, I do not think that by any stretch of imagination that can be held to justify the orgy of posters and head-lines and the exploitation of indecent suggestion from which we very often suffer. If we could imagine that all the papers which offend in this manner could by some means or other have been simultaneously blotted out, say, by an air raid, or by a discriminating tidal wave, nevertheless I think it cannot be doubted there would remain plenty of publicity to exercise whatever de-torrent and salutary effect already is exercised. In any case, if this existing publicity of which I complain were lost by doing away with it, I am convinced that its absence would be more than compensated for by the advantages.
With regard to the freedom of the Press, that of course is a most admirable and necessary thing. It is essential that the rights of the Press should be safeguarded in every way. From that it follows that no extension of any return to a system of trials in camera could be tolerated, nor would it be possible to Contemplate the suppression of reports of such cases as are at present heard in open court. But the freedom of the Press, after all, is not a greater thing than the freedom of the individual, and the freedom of the individual is already pretty severely limited. There are some things
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which at present the Press, any more than any individual, may not do. No newspaper, in fact, dare or does publish at the present time everything that transpires in Court. Moreover, with regard to those two arguments—the deterrent effect of publicity and the freedom of the Press—does anybody suggest that these papers, particularly the Sunday papers, in publishing this class of literature are concerned to prevent the commission of acts of immorality by hypothetical people, or to defend the freedom of the Press, which nobody at the moment is dreaming of challenging?
The law on the subject, as I understand it, is perfectly simple. Section 3 of the Law of Libel Amendment Act reads as follows:
"A fair and accurate report in any newspaper of proceedings publicly heard before any Court exercising judicial authority shall, if published contemporaneously with such proceedings, be privileged: Provided that nothing in this section shall authorise the publication of any blasphemous or indecent matter."
The fact is that these offending newspapers are laying themselves open to a prosecution all the time, but they have all gauged extremely accurately how far they can go without exposing themselves to a conviction.
The intention of the law is perfectly clear; the difficulty rests in the fact that the indecency does not lie so much in the actual words of the report as in the suggestiveness which is underneath. As I understand it the reporter of such dirty eases could be indicted, and there is no doubt that a Grand Jury would find a true bill, but the difficulty of the prosecution would be to establish the fact that the actual report was so filthy as to fall within the definition of "indecent" or "obscene." In one of the leading cases on this subject there is a definition of what is indecent and obscene. The Judge in that case said this:
"I think the test of obscenity is this, whether the tendency of the matter charged as obscenity is to deprave and to corrupt those whose minds are open to such immoral influences and into whose hands a publication of this sift may fall."
There could not be a better definition of the evil of which I am complaining. I want to make it clear that what I am suggesting is not further to limit the freedom of the Press but to render effective the limits which already by law exist.

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The precise means of doing that is a matter of some difficulty. It may be possible to give Judges discretion to instruct that certain evidence shall not be published, and it may be possible to prohibit the publication of any report until the conclusion of the case. It may be possible to adopt both suggestions. It is not for me to say what is the best method, but I do maintain that it is a problem which has to be faced. The longer the present state of affairs lasts the worse it will get. There is a demand for this class of literature. I do not say that it exists more in one class of the community than in another, but it is a demand which is created by the supply, and the supply will go on increasing because the stress of competition will gradually force the better class of newspapers to abandon the reticence which, all to their credit, they maintain at present.
I am convinced that there is a strong public opinion in favour of strengthening the law, and I believe that the majority of newspapers themselves would welcome legislation. It is a curious thing that in this matter extremes meet. Newspapers whose politics are so far apart as the Morning Post and the Daily Herald are in agreement on this matter. Both these newspapers, and the majority, would welcome legislation. The need is not confined to divorce reports; all cases out of which capital can be made in a similar way should be made the subject of legislation. Difficult as the problem is, it is not beyond the power of the legal advisers of the Government, in collaboration with leading representatives of the Press, to frame a measure which would command general acceptance. I urge upon the Government that it is most important that they should bring forward such legislation at the earliest possible moment.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I am always unwilling to inflict my views upon you twice in one afternoon but unfortunately the Notice Paper to-day contains two Questions upon which I hold very strong views. I am sure that the whole of the House is grateful to the noble Lord for having brought forward this Question and would also like to congratulate him upon the manner in which he has expressed his views. I find myself unable to follow the lines of improvement he desires I
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do not think you can by Act of Parliament further limit and define the power the Press now possess to report these cases. If you are going to effect any remedy at all it must be something far more drastic than that, and it is my opinion, having thought the matter over very carefully indeed, that the right thing to do is to prohibit the publication of anything concerning divorce cases except the result.
Why is it suggested that the public have a right to know everything that takes place within the four walls of the Divorce Court? The noble Lord has suggested that it is necessary to create some kind of deterrent to prevent people going wrong, and also in order to secure the liberty of the Press. Liberty is always a word that makes a great appeal to me, but I have never forgotten the woman who said; "O Liberty ! how many crimes are committed in thy name !" And when I hear of the liberty of the Press being invoked as a reason why unpleasant matters should be disseminated broadcast throughout the country I find myself unable to respond. So also I do with regard to the suggestion that the fear of the shame of publication will deter people from going wrong. There is not a single man who has anything to do with the control of the morals of his fellow creatures who thinks that a man or woman would be deflected for an instant from the path of ill-doing by the remote possibility that at some future date some part of their misdeeds may be published in the newspaper. It always seems to me that people underestimate the strength of human passions.
But it is not merely that you are going to interfere with the wrong-doer. You are going to pillory the person who has not done wrong, and that, to my mind, is the great scandal connected with these reports. A woman who has done no wrong at all has to go to the Court to disclose in public matters as to which she would rather die of shame than mention them in public. She has to give her evidence before a Court that is crowded' with vulgar, idle sightseers, who have not gathered for the purpose of seeing justice administered—if they wanted to see justice administered they could go to the Admiralty Court—but who have gathered for the purpose of hearing of unclean matters from the lips of a woman. And to make a woman who is asking for rights

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which exist, and which the laws of this country still give her, go through that torture before she can obtain them is to do something which offends the most elementary principles of justice.
I would have far wider powers than exist at present to clear the Court and absolutely prohibit the publication of any of these eases. In whose interests are they published? If there is any matter which is a private and domestic concern it is a quarrel between a man and his wife, and the Divorce Court is merely there for the purpose of saying whether that quarrel is of such a character as entitles one of the parties to be free. What rights have the put lie there? What interests of the public are served by publishing the details? No theory was ever more abused than the theory that the liberty of the Press and justice require the opening of the doors of the Divorce Court to everybody who likes to enter and the publication by new spapers of everything that transpires therein. I am satisfied that there is only one effective way of dealing with this matter—a way that is fair to all newspapers and to which none can object. That is that the whole publication, with the exception of the result, should be stopped, and I have yet to learn what is the argument against that course.
With regard to the way in which the newspapers deal with these cases, I have not the same complaint as the noble Lord. If you permit them to deal with these cases, every single one of which depends upon an unclean incident, it is impossible to report it without referring to the uncleanness. You cannot avoid it, and if you are going to inform people of what is going on you have to put the balance of evidence on one side or the other, and to prove whether the wrong that is charged exists or not. As your Lordships all know, I look forward—and my expectations are not shared by all of your Lordships, though I believe by the majority—to a time when we stall greatly extend the powers that now exist to free people from the burden of a bond that has been disgraced and dishonoured, and when that time comes I hope that we shall also enable people to obtain the rights which the law gives them without the shame and humiliation that is imposed upon them to-day by the attendance of the public and by publication in the Press.
THE LORD BISHOP OF DURHAM: My Lords, I shall interpose for only a very few minutes. This question raises one of the few matters upon which those who occupy this bench may fitly claim the attention of this House. I should like to associate myself at once with what Lord Buckmaster said in welcoming the speech of the noble Lord who put this Question. As one who had the honour of the acquaintance of his father it is a particular satisfaction to me to witness the noble Lord's appearance in this House in this connection.
I wonder how many of your Lordships connect this subject with the very grave social situation in which the country now stands. It is my lot to be Bishop of a district in the county of Durham, which is suffering beyond many other parts of the country from the great calamity of unemployment. We have many thousands of lads and young men unemployed month after month, some of them even for years together. Imagine the effect of the daily publication of the most degrading matter placed every morning in the hands of these idle thousands, and providing them with the text of the most degrading conversation, protracted for long periods of the day. As I go into my park at Auckland I constantly see hundreds of young miners, during the time of the depression, with these papers in their hands, reading them, talking about them, lowering themselves by matter which is put before them not by sonic private venture in obscenity, but with the prestige and authority of the institutions of this country. That seems to me a consideration which we ought to weigh most seriously when we consider the social effect of the present state of things.
I ask myself what conceivable public advantage can accrue from the publication in full of the painful and humiliating trials which take place in the Divorce Courts, and—I agree with Lord Balfour of Burleigh—not only in the Divorce Courts, because perhaps some of the most degrading matter which has been forced on the public in this way has been in connection with other trials which did not take place in the Divorce Courts. What conceivable advantage to the public can flow from these publications? I can imagine that the publication of trials might be regarded as one method of securing justice. I can imagine its being

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suggested that publicity would be a great influence in deterring people from the kind of offence in question. But we have witnessed the growth in our society of a new type of social offender, one who does not shrink from but exults in the humiliation of publicity, and it is this type perhaps which is responsible for the worst incidents which are reported in our Press.
We have a saying that "Familiarity breeds contempt." I would venture to paraphrase it in this connection by saying that the common discussion of very gross vice blinds men insensibly to its grossness and thereby facilitates its extension in the community. We are living at a time when the almost complete breakdown of domestic discipline has thrown quite special responsibility upon the community for the methods which it allows to be adopted for informing the public mind and shaping the public taste. Think of the conditions under which this disgusting information is daily poured out upon the community. We have now a vast reading public, we have instruments by which information is disseminated so rapidly and with such emphasis that its full meaning is very strongly impressed upon the mind.
I speak here in the name of every agency, without exception, that is at work amongst the people for the raising of their character and the cleansing of their lives. I believe that on this matter there is no division of opinion following any denominational or sectarian lines. All the Churches are at one on this point. All the social workers—I speak with conviction on the point—are at one. I believe that those of us whose business it is to live among the people and to concern ourselves with the influences which are brought to bear on their lives find that there is nothing which haunts us and depresses us so much at the present time as the rapid, the tragic decline of sexual morality amongst the people. Amongst the forces which are ministering to that decline I place very high in the list this daily communication of the degrading and depraving record which flows from the Courts. I hope that before this discussion ceases we shall hear from some of the eminent lawyers who adorn this House what is precisely the state of the law. I confess that I find it difficult to believe that it is really quite so helpless
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in this matter as we are sometimes led to suppose. But if it be the case that the law has at the present moment no means of restraining this evil, then it is high time that Parliament addressed itself to the matter.
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, it is many years since I first thought upon these dreadful subjects, and I was able during the early years of my life, I hope, to do a little to counteract another phase of this impurity question through the passing of an Act relating to indecent advertisements. Since those days I have witnessed, as the right rev. Prelate has just told you, an increase of every sort of temptation to the young which did not exist formerly to induce them to fall into bad ways. In my young days there was family control amongst all classes. No young girl was permitted to read any of these horrible papers, even if they were published, and as a matter of fact, if I remember aright, these details were not published. I cannot remember The Times, for instance, or any respectable paper, publishing any of the details of what was then called "crim. con."
One reason, of course, is that in those days there were large numbers of the population who only read with the greatest difficulty, or not at all. Now, everybody can read, and young girls, as well as boys, are able to do whatever they like. They leave home when they like. They can earn their living, and the father and mother have no power over them whatever. The girls lead bachelor lives, you may say, with the result that they read everything that is read by the boy, and I have noticed, even amongst a much higher class of young women, nowadays, that they know everything, and they are not ashamed very often to talk in public upon these cases, and they enter into details which in my young days no young woman would ever have thought of doing. The result is that there is great licence which did not exist formerly.
It may seem impertinent for me to do as other noble Lords have done, and thank Lord Balfour of Burleigh for raising this Question, but I do wish to thank him, and having known his father I am delighted to learn that he is able to show that he can carry on the work which his father did for so many years. I listened with great attention to what

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he said, but I cannot really agree with him. I agree entirely with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster. I believe that if anything is done it must be done drastically. I cannot for the life of me see what good the publication of these horrible details does to the public in general, except the idea that if you did prevent their publication some harm would be done to the liberty of the subject. I do not believe for one moment that it would be, and therefore I hope that the noble and learned Lord, with all his great ability, will take this matter up and boldly face it. I for one in my humble way would be delighted to support any measure which he, or any other noble Lord, brought in to prevent in the future the publication in the newspapers of perfectly unnecessary details.
VISCOUNT FINLAY: My Lords, I am sure that the general feeling in the House is one of gratitude to Lord Balfour of Burleigh for having brought to the attention of the House this matter, which is really of very great urgency. I do not think that the evil is confined entirely to reports of proceedings in the Divorce Court, although, from the nature of the business there transacted, the reports of cases there have attracted very naturally a deplorable amount of attention. I remember that in the days when I had occasion almost every day to be at the Law Courts I was struck, day after day, with what always appeared to me to be the most deplorable sight in London—namely, the crowd of people waiting at o the door of the Divorce Court, in order that they might revel in the details of the cases which it was the duty of the Court to investigate. It is, however, not only in that Court that cases are heard which are much better unreported, or at all events if reported only reported in the barest outline, with a statement of the result. Many other cases are open to the same objection, and because flufficient, reasons may exist for admitting the public to hear such cases in Court, there is to my mind no reason whatever why oar houses should be flooded with detailed reports of such cases. It is a most unfortunate thing that it is nowadays impossible to leave newspapers about where there are any young people in the house.
The matter is not one to which my attention had not already been drawn. A
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very long time ago, in the 'eighties, in conjunction with my dear friend Sir Frank Lockwood, I considered what could be done in this matter, and we made an attempt which unfortunately came to nothing. The difficulty of passing legislation on this subject can only be appreciated by those who have had some practical acquaintance with it. In these circumstances I think it is desirable to call attention to what are the existing powers of the law, and to consider whether, with a suitable choice of cases, something might not be done with the machinery that we already have. It is well settled law—I am quoting from a case of authority—that the privilege given by the law to the reports of judicial proceedings does not extend to reports which contain matters of an obscene and demoralising character, and in the course of the judgments given in that case, it was pointed out by one of the Judges that the matter was well dealt with in a well known work on the Law of Libel, where it was said that where you have had proceedings for the purpose of punishing demoralising literature of that kind, would it not be not merely impolitic but absolutely absurd to allow the same matter to be sent broadcast over the country, in the guise of a report of proceedings intended to prevent the diffusion of such matters?
That being so, is it not worth while considering whether, with a suitable selection of cases, a great deal might be done to strengthen the hands of those concerned in the management of the Press itself, in resisting any tendency to publish reports of this kind? It is, of course, necessary for any reform of this kind to be carried out that we should have the co-operation of the Press, and there is certainly a very large section of those concerned in the management of the Press who would welcome that which would tend to strengthen their hands in dealing with such a great and growing evil. In these circumstances is it not worth the consideration of the authorities concerned with such matters in order to see whether a selection could not be made of some case, which would demonstrate to all England that the law is not so impotent in this matter as is sometimes supposed?
One or two cases in which the law, as described in the passages to which I have

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called attention, was enforced would have a very great effect in deterring those who might be disposed to offend, and in strengthening those among the Press who are disposed to put themselves at the head of any movement in the direction of excluding from the houses of the people of this country literature of so demoralising a kind. I really cannot conceive what reason there is for our having our houses flooded with details of cases of that kind, and I hope that, whether by a more stringent exercise of the powers that already exist or, if it be possible, by an alteration of the law, something may be done which will tend to prevent the demoralisation which, we have been told, results from the present state of things.
THE EARL OF DESABT: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this matter to-night, but I have been greatly struck by the practical unanimity of nearly all who have spoken on two things—first, that the evil is a very real and a very great one, and, secondly, that somehow or other those in authority ought to endeavour to devise a means of getting rid of the evil, or, at any rate, of minimising it. I would adopt almost every word that my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster said, and I believe that you will never get any remedy except by definite and distinct legislation.
I listened, as I naturally should, with the greatest attention to what was said by my noble and learned friend Lord Finlay, but I do not take so sanguine a view as he does that any process of adaptation of the existing law would meet this evil. If you are to depend on the criminal law as to prosecution for obscene or indecent publications I think you will find very few cases indeed in the reports of Divorce Court proceedings in which you would have the smallest chance of success. They are not indecent in that sense. The people who report the cases know their business much too well. The reports are suggestive, they are objectionable in the highest degree, but I do not believe you would have a chance of succeeding on an indictment or before a magistrate in one case out of a hundred; in fact, if you endeavoured to administer the law in that way you would never have a second chance, because they would
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know perfectly well how to avoid it. I know the difficulties, and I would urge that the Government should consider whether it is possible to get rid altogether of this evil in a manner which, universally applied to all newspapers, would cause a grievance to none of them.
Lord Buckmaster suggested that nothing should be published but results. That which I would suggest is practically the same: that there should be published the names of the parties, the charges made, the result, and the report of any discussion on a point of law which arose in the course of the proceedings. I cannot see that the interests of public justice could possibly require any more than that, if it required so much, and I think it would ensure that anything that ought to be published would be published. There ought to be that amount of public record, but I would take it no further. That, however, requires substantive legislation, and there may be great difficulties of policy. But if you consider the various kinds of newspapers, the audiences they address, and the views of some of those who direct them, I do not think that you would ever get any common action from the Press as a whole; it must come from above and from outside. That I believe to be really the only remedy. A remedy, and a practical remedy, is wanted, for I believe that the evil is very great from the Point of view which the right rev. Prelate urged in his very forcible speech.
But, apart from that, I think this publication is cruel to the last degree, not only to the innocent people, but to everybody. After all, these divorce cases are really tragedies. They mean the breaking up of homes. Why, at a time when, except perhaps in some cases, the utmost suffering is being endured, both by the guilty and the innocent parties, is every detail to be dragged before the public? Moreover—though I admit that this is a minor point, and I only bring it in because I occupied the position of King's Proctor for fourteen years—it is to some extent a hindrance to justice. I have known many cases where important witnesses, or persons believed to be important witnesses, have been asked to make statements, and they have asked: "Will my name appear in the paper?" They at once refused—very naturally; I do not blame them in the least.
In view of the extraordinary unanimity of opinion on the broad question,

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expressed from every part of this House this evening, I think the Government should earnestly consider whether, by affirmative legislation on some such lines as I have suggested, they could not get rid of an evil which, I am sure, is felt to be an evil by nearly everybody, even by the people who read these things. The owners of newspapers sometimes say:" Oh, we have got to serve our public; we give them what they want." But newspapers can create a demand as well as supply it, and I question whether, if the alteration which we desire was made, you would hear that there was any grievance. I hardly think people would have the face to say: "This is a monstrous outrage on justice." I believe that if you made this change it would be accepted as a proper and admirable thing to be done, and I am afraid that there is no hope of success in any other direction.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should like first to endorse the view which has already been expressed by several of your Lordships that Lord Balfour of Burleigh, in bringing forward this Question, has rendered a public service. I believe it is true—and the debate to-day shows it—that what he has said about these publications represents the view of the enormous majority of our fellow countrymen. Lawyers, unfortunately, are obliged sometimes to listen to unsavoury details, because civil rights and sometimes criminal liabilities depend upon their being investigated, and proved or disproved. But there is, I believe, no good reason why details of that character should be broadcasted throughout the country, and published in the great majority of our newspapers.
It is said that some people like to read them, but it is not on behalf of people of that kind that the complaint is made. The effect of printing them indiscriminately is to bring these disgusting matters before the eyes; of people who read their newspapers for quite other purposes, and who abhor this kind of thing, and, worst of all, to bring them before the eyes of young children of both sexes, who are not armed against matters of that kind, and to whom real harm is done. I think, therefore, that all of us are of one mind as to the evil. But I should like to add that, much to their honour, some of our newspapers refuse to publish material of this kind, while
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others think it proper to insist upon their rights.
The real question is: How can an improvement be brought about without improperly trenching upon what, is called the liberty of the Press? As to the present law, I need add but little to what has been said by my noble and learned friend Lord Finlay. Of course, it is true that the privilege of the Press does not extend to the publication of indecent and obscene matter. That is laid down not only in the judgments of Lord Chief Justice Cockburn and Lord Chief Justice Bovill, to which my noble and learned friend referred, but by the Statute which was quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. That, of course, is true; but it is also true, as the noble Earl, Lord Desart, has said, that it is very difficult to obtain a conviction in these cases. I know, for of course I have enquired into it, that the Department of Public Prosecutions is always ready to hear and investigate complaints of indecent or obscene publications and to take action where a case can be made. But, as the noble Earl has said, the evil is sometimes not in the publication of something grossly and openly obscene, but of suggestive and improper details, and it is not easy in cases of this kind to procure juries to convict.
I need hardly add that to prosecute without obtaining a conviction does, or may do, a very great deal of harm because it involves the re-publication in paper after paper of the offensive matter. Therefore, unless a conviction ensues, much more harm than good is done. That really is the answer which I have to make to my noble and learned friend when he suggests picking out some cases for prosecution. The Director of Public Prosecutions is always willing to deal with any possible case. I am sure that he exercises his power with a view, if possible, of putting an end to this evil; but I am afraid the effect of what has been said, and truly said, to-day, is that the law as it stands is really not strong enough to deal with the whole of the evil. I do not mean to say that you could enlarge the definition of obscenity or of indecency so as to make that criminal which is not criminal to-day; but I believe that the criminal proceedings which are open to us have proved by experience not to be sufficient to deal with the whole of the evil which exists.

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My noble and learned friend, Lord Buckmaster, made a suggestion for dealing with the matter—namely, that all publication of divorce cases (I think he confined his suggestion to those cases) should be forbidden except, of course, as to the names of the parties and the result of the case. I want to point out to your Lordships' House that there are difficulties about that. To begin with, the evil is not confined to matrimonial causes. These details are found in other cases, some of them civil but most of them criminal. If you are going really to deal with the matter you must prohibit publication of the facts of those cases, too. Then this serious question arises, that in all of these cases, or in many of them, the character of individuals is involved. When the case is successful or a conviction ensues, the injured party has an interest in having a sufficient publication of the details to show that he or she is free from blame. That is still more the case when an action fails or a person is acquitted of an alleged crime. That person has some right that the public by whom the charge has probably been discussed should know that the acquittal is complete and that he or she is found free from any blame. I think you have to consider those points very carefully before you wholly forbid the publication of any details in cases of that kind.
Certain other proposals were made by the Royal Commission over which the late Lord Gorell presided. One of them was that divorce cases might be heard in camera; that is, with closed doors. Another was that the Judge hearing such cases, and I suppose other cases too, should be at liberty to prohibit the publication of that which he thought might be injurious to the public morals. The Commission also made other suggestions which appear to me to be of less value. Those were important suggestions backed by high authority, and in the Bill which my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster introduced a few years ago he incorporated some or all of the suggestions of the Royal Commission. Your Lordships will remember what happened. Objection was at once taken by some members of your Lordships' House, especially those who were connected with the Press. A debate ensued, and all of those provisions were either struck out or so much truncated that what remained was of little use. The same thing hap-
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pened in the following year when Lord Gorell introduced a Bill which contained a clause dealing with this question. The clause was objected to and again struck out. So it is plain that the solution of the problem by legislation is not an easy one.
The other day a deputation of Members of the other House came to see me to discuss the matter, and they were good enough to lay before me some of the considerations which have been urged today. After talking the matter over with them, I thought it right to make two suggestions. One was that they should endeavour to get the Press to come into line in this matter; that they should interview those members of the Press who were desirous of helping and try to get some kind of compact among the respectable Press which would have the effect of purifying the columns of our newspapers from matter of this kind. I believe that attempts have been made in that direction but hitherto without result. The other proposal that I made was that legislation should be introduced in another place by those gentlemen who were Members of that House. I believe that effect will be given to that proposal and that my right hon. friend Sir Evelyn Cecil intends in a short time to introduce in another place a Bill for dealing with this matter.
I feel sure that the introduction of such a measure will lead to the serious consideration of this question, and it may be that the feeling in another place will be so strong that the measure will receive sanction there and will come up to your Lordships for consideration. In any ease, it is a good thing to introduce proposals in another place and to ascertain what is the strength of feeling there on the matter. Your Lordships will understand that with the heavy programme which faces His Majesty's Government this Session it will be very difficult for them to introduce legislation on this matter upon which opinion has not yet crystallised; I mean, as to which people are not agreed upon the remedy which ought to be applied. But I believe that the same end will be forwarded by the proposal about to be made to Parliament. The Government will watch what is said and done, and if they see any opportunity of usefully intervening they will not fail to do so.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, there are amongst your Lordships some who remember what a great influence was exercised for so many years in this House by the father of the noble Lord who introduced this Question, and who will welcome most gladly the noble Lord's intervention and his initiation of the subject this afternoon. I am sure your Lordships will all hope that he will continue to take part in the discussions of this House and exercise eventually, perhaps, as leading a position as did his father.
I rise because I am partly responsible for having introduced into your Lordships' House a good many years ago a Bill that became an Act of Parliament which did try in some measure to deal with the difficulties of the publication of indecent matter. In the year 1908 the Incest Act was introduced by His Majesty's Government, and in that Act there is a section which ordains that all proceedings under that Act shall be held in camera. That is going very much further than was suggested by my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster, with regard to dealing with indecent cases that are now heard in the Courts. But I am bound to point out to your Lordships that that Act was considered unsatisfactory, and that now the provision has been repealed. I think it was repealed in the course of last year. It was thought undesirable that these matters should be heard in camera because people did not realise the gravity of the offence. Therefore the law has now been altered. It is obvious that it would be impossible for us to enact that these cases should be heard in camera, and that there is a very great deal more to be said for the suggestion made by my noble and learned friend that the result only should be made public.
I join with the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack in his tribute to the newspapers which abstain from adding to their circulation by printing matter of this kind. Papers like the Daily Herald and the Morning Post deserve, I think, the greatest credit for their action in this matter. It would, however, be foolish if we were to blind ourselves to the fact that there are some
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papers which go out of their way in order to publish as much as they possibly can of cases of this kind, and who probably—we must regretfully own it—add to their circulation because they publish these things. I am afraid there is a very large section of the public which welcomes the publication of these details in their newspapers. At the same time it is evident from what has been said this afternoon that anything which is done in this direction will be warmly welcomed by a very large section of the public.
I would venture, therefore, to urge upon His Majesty's Government that they should take a stronger attitude with regard to this matter. I realise what the noble and learned Viscount has said in regard to their programme for the present Session, but I would ask whether it would not be possible for them to introduce in this House in the next Session a Bill dealing with this matter. It is not unusual during the first few weeks of a Session that this House should have comparatively little to do, and I do not know that we could occupy our time more usefully than in considering a Bill of this kind. If we found, as I am sure we should find, that in this House it met with a considerable measure of approval, then I think we might expect that it would pass in another place without any very great expenditure of the time of His Majesty's Government.
And if that is done I would ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack to consider also whether there are not other matters—not only reports of cases, but indecent advertisements and a number of other things of the same type— which might well be dealt with at the same time. I remember sitting upon a Joint Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament a good many years ago, and being much struck with the difficulty that there is in dealing with this subject. I am sure that the difficulty does not lie with the reporting of cases only. Therefore, if this matter is dealt with, as I hope it may be, in your Lordships' House in another Session, I hope that these other matters will not be lost sight of, but that advertisements also may be included, and that His Majesty's Government may find a way of dealing with them at the same time.

OVERSEAS SETTLEMENT: AN IRISHMAN'S CASE.
LORD CARSON LORD CARSON had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government whether a British officer at present resident in Dublin, who served in the British Army in France from 1915 to 1919, when he was demobilised, applied to the Oversea Settlement Office for assisted passages for himself and his family with a view to taking up employment which he was offered in Canada, and was refused such assistance on the grounds of his being resident in the Free State; and whether His Majesty's Government will reconsider the matter, having regard to the services rendered by this officer to this country throughout the late war.
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, even at this comparatively late hour, for this House, I do not think I need apologise for saying a few words with reference to a class of officer who fought for us in the great war and whom the British Government have thought right, in circumstances I will detail, still further to abandon in Ireland. The matter may look a trivial one to those who live on this side of the Channel, but I can assure your Lordships that that is not really the fact. It is a thing of serious import.
The particular case to which I have referred upon the Paper may be very briefly outlined. An officer, now resident in Dublin, an Irishman, served in the British Army in France from 1915 till 1919, when he was demobilised. He had given up his business to go into the Army, and I need hardly remind your Lordships with what joy you hailed any addition to the forces which you could get at that time from Southern Ireland. Having served, he went back to Ireland. At the present time one of the disqualifications for employment in Southern Ireland is the fact that you have served in the British Army. Indeed, a connection of mine was murdered because he had been guilty of that heinous crime. Your Lordships, therefore, will see that it not a happy situation for a man who has served in the British Army and has then gone back to his abode in Southern Ireland.
This man, like many others, is out of employment. He has a wife and two children, and he applied to the Overseas Settlement Office in March last for an
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assisted passage for himself, his wife and children, having got employment in Winnipeg, Canada. All the answer he got was that because he lived in the Free State he could not be assisted under the Act of last year. The Act of last year says that you may assist those who are resident in the United Kingdom. Apparently some clerk in the Overseas Settlement Office, who does not even write his name legibly, has decided that this officer, who fought for five years in France, is not to be assisted out of starvation because he is living in Dublin. I cannot conceive a more pedantic decision. Whether it is in accordance with the law or not I am not going to express any opinion—that is a matter which may have to be decided upon argument—but that it can be left to rest in such an unsatisfactory situation is impossible.
What does it mean? It means that we asked this man to go and fight, we begged him to go out with our Army to France, and he went out as a member of the United Kingdom. When he got back and went to Ireland we abandon him and hand him over to those who were his bitterest enemies. When he applies for the relief that has been given to other officers who served in a similar way we tell him that we cannot do it because we made no provision for it when it suited our political operations to make concessions to those who were his bitterest enemies. That is a brutal decision, cold-hearted and callous, and I would like to know on whose authority this letter was written. I am not going into the question as to whether Ireland, when this letter was written, was part of the United Kingdom or not. I know that His Majesty's Government have administrative powers to set it absolutely right, and in any event it does not lie in the mouth of any Government to treat a man who has served his country in the way it is attempted to treat this man.
I should like to take this opportunity of saying that it is high time Departments ceased doing that with which I am so constantly in contact, that is, making the most minute efforts and the most flimsy pretext for not doing anything for those who are in distress in Ireland by reason of their loyalty to this country in the past. You meet it almost every day and upon every request. Surely, having

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abandoned and betrayed them, the Government at all events might say that they were going to take care that no one who has served us is going to suffer because of the fact that he did serve us. Apart from all technicalities I cannot see how the Government can refuse to treat this man differently from other officers in this country. Here is his own statement:
"Having received the offer of employment in Winnipeg, Canada, I applied to Overseas Settlements for assisted passage, for myself, wife and two children. The enclosed is the reply to my request."
That is the letter to which I have referred. He goes on to say:
"Having served my King and country faithfully from 1915 to 1919 surely I am entitled to any benefits that more fortunately domiciled ex-Service men can obtain. Since 1919 I have been employed in certain trades but at present am unemployed and awaiting to proceed to Canada. I am not asking for anything more than hundreds of other loyal Irishmen have received."
I hope His Majesty's Government will be able to give a favourable answer in this case and that I may have your Lordships' sympathy for this class of man.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, with reference to the concluding
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passage in the speech of the noble and learned Lord may I say that you will find His Majesty's Government entirely sympathetic to the case of those individuals whose claims he is advocating this evening? For the purposes of Empire settlement, I understand that it is impossible at present for the Overseas Settlement Committee to make any grants to people resident in Ireland. That I believe is under an Order in Council, but that Order in Council is, and can be, varied, and after what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord I shall personally take up this case, and also other cases corresponding to it, in order to see if it is possible to make alterations in the Order in Council so as to secure the object which I am quite sure all your Lordships most sympathetically endorse. Perhaps my noble and learned friend will give me, confidentially, any further particulars he has in this particular case.
LORD CARSON: Let me thank the noble Duke for his sympathetic answer. I should like to point out that the letter from the Overseas Settlement Committee was dated eight days before the Order in Council was passed.
House adjourned at five minutes before seven o'clock.

BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
THORNTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
WARRINGTON CORPORATION WATER BILL.
Reports from His Majesty's Attorney-General received and ordered to lie on the Table.

LYTHAM ST. ANNES CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 27th of February last and the 27th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
SWANAGE GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 7th and 27th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petitions for additional provisions in the following Bills ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committees on the Bills to insert the additional provisions:

North-Eastern Railway. [H.L.]

London and South-Western Railway. [H.L.]

Macclesfield Corporation. [H.L.]

And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petitions for the following Bills ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bills:

West Hartlepool Corporation.

Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway Company.

Read, and agreed to.

WALLASEY EMBANKMENT BILL.
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported without amendment.
PORT OF LONDON (FINANCE) BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment.
SMETHWICK CORPORATION (GAS) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported without amendment.
RIVER WEAR WATCH BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Ebbw Vale Urban District Council.

Stalybridge, Hyde, Moseley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board.

London County Council (General Powers).

Maidstone Corporation.

Newhaven and Seaford Sea Defences.

Westminster City Council (Cleveland Street Infirmary).

Also the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 1).

And also the Certificates that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petitions for additional provision in the following Bills:
Great Western Railway (Additional Powers). [H.L.]
Wimbledon and Sutton Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BROADSTAIRS AND ST. PETERS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
MID KENT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
LONDON AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that Lord Redesdale be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of Lord O'Hagan; read, and agreed to.