Sitting of 19 April 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Caledonian Railway Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

LIQUOR TRAFFIC PROHIBITION BILL.
Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: I beg to present a petition from the Ancient Order of Good Templars in Dundee and elsewhere, in favour of the Liquor Traffic Prohibition Bill.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    REJECTED CLAIM (LIEUTENANT JOHN GOWER).
    Mr. A. J. BENNETTasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Lieutenant John Gower, of Sutton-in-Ash-field, fought throughout the whole of the War, being demobilised in 1919; that developing neurasthenia he claimed in 1921, and on appeal was allowed a pension in respect of this malady as attributable to service; that he died in April, 1922, from pernicious anæmia and neurasthenia; that his mother's appeal for allowance was, though supported by medical testimony, rejected both by the Ministry and the appeal tribunal; and that the mother is left without a penny in respect of her son's death; and whether he will take steps to prevent conflicting procedure in such cases and secure that due regard is paid to medical evidence adduced on behalf of the claimants?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): I am looking personally into the facts of this case, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

    CONDITIONAL PENSIONS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Pensions how many ex-service men are in receipt of conditional pensions whose injuries were received in the years 1915, 1916, 1917 and 1918, and whose pensions have remained stationary for four years?
    Major TRYON: The records of my Department are not kept in such form as to disclose the particulars asked for, but the great majority of all cases of injury in which pension has been current for four years or more have either received final awards or are about to be considered for final awards.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are thousands of men who have been examined in the past four, five and six years, and whose pensions remain stationary; and since these men, with their small pensions, find it impossible to secure work or to keep themselves, will he facilitate the commutation of the persons where they desire it?
    Major TRYON: The question of commutation raises a different point. I think it is greatly against the interests of the pensioner, as a rule, to commute pensions. It leaves him with nothing.

    OVERPAYMENTS (REFUND).
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Pensions the number of cases in which pensioners have to make refunds due to mistakes; the amount of the money so involved; and the number due to error on the part of the Ministry and the applicants, respectively?
    Sir EDWIN STOCKTONasked the Minister of Pensions if, taking the various weeks since the beginning of the current year, he will state in each case the total amount received through refunds from pensioners or ex-pensioners; and what is the average amount per person paid in each of the same periods?
    Major TRYON: I regret that the statistics of my Department are not kept in a form that would enable the information asked for to he readily obtained. I may, however, say that the bulk of the deductions made are in respect of

    2219
    advances granted on the express understanding that they would be recovered if pension was ultimately awarded. With regard to deductions in respect of over-issue of pension, I would like to take this opportunity of informing the hon. Members, and the House generally, that further substantial concessions in the matter have been agreed to. In future, where the over-issue is not brought to the notice of the recipient within 12 months and he could not reasonably be expected to have been aware of the overpayment, recovery will ordinarily be waived, and in other cases recovery will be limited to the amount actually overpaid during the last 12 months of the over-issue. When severe hardship would be occasioned, recovery may be waived on that ground. These concessions will be applied in principle to cases where recovery is already in progress, but they will not, of course, apply to cases of fraud or misrepresentation.
    Mr. SHORT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the conditions which he has enumerated were not in operation in the lifetime of the last Ministry?
    Major TRYON: Some of them were. There were undoubtedly cases where hardship had arisen in which repayment was remitted. The complete adoption of the one-year limit has only been fully carried through recently. It was started before, and now it is completed.
    Sir JAMES REMNANT: In cases where money has been repaid in respect of overpayment, will there be a refund?
    Major TRYON: No, Sir. I could not agree that money which should never have been paid by us in the first instance should be once more paid to the pensioner.
    Mr. MUIR: Will the Minister consider the advisability, where repayment has to be made, of seeing that the pensioner receives the major portion of the payment instead of the minor portion, as is very often done now?
    Major TRYON: We have often arranged for recovery at a lower rate. I realise the hon. Member's point.

    DISABILITY CLAIM (W. H. HARRIS).
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that
    2220
    W. H. Harris, back of 29, Cross Street, Wednesbury, was notified on the 15th February, 1923, that his disability was attributable to service, and effect would be given to this decision at an early date; and, if so, will be expedite a settlement, as Harris is in need of financial assistance?
    Major TRYON: An award has now been made in accordance with the assessed degree of disablement, and immediate instructions given for payment. I regret the delay.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to tell us the number of these cases which he proposes to leave under the Poor Law?
    Major TRYON: Not without notice. We have been going through them with the desire to accept them wherever possible. Perhaps the hon. Member will put down another question.

    HEART CASES.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Minister of Pensions (1) if he is aware that the treatment of heart cases amongst ex-soldiers and sailors is being rendered ineffective because the Ministry refuses to supply new dentures in cases where these are required, owing to extractions having been recommended by the heart specialist; does the Ministry look to the hospitals to provide these dentures;
    (2) if his attention has been called to the case of Andrew Dempster, an ex-sailor, of Barnes, who is undergoing treatment provided by the Ministry of Pensions at the National Hospital for Diseases of the Heart, where he was advised to have his teeth removed as an essential part of treatment for his invaliding disability; and whether, seeing that his admission to this hospital as an inpatient for this extraction was sanctioned by the Ministry, that his teeth were removed, and that the Ministry has refused to provide him with false teeth, he will consider whether the cost of supplying new teeth can be borne by the Ministry in cases where the extraction of septic teeth is an integral part of the treatment of heart diseases?
    Major TRYON: Where there is no dental disease due to war service but the extraction of teeth is recommended by my Department as a necessary part

    2221
    of treatment for an accepted disability, it is the practice to supply artificial dentures where such are necessary in the interests of the pensioner's health. In the individual case mentioned, I understand that the need for artificial dentures has not been established, but I am making further inquiries in the matter.
    Mr. BECKER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of ex-service men have had their dentures removed in order to assist heart treatment; that now they are walking about the wards without any false teeth and do not know where to find them, and that they have not the money to buy teeth? Can the right hon. Gentleman also say whether the hospital is supposed to supply these teeth, though only getting a capitation of three shillings per head?
    Major TRYON: If the hon. Member refers to my answer he will see that I have dealt with that point.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Minister of Pensions if his Ministry proposes to remove ex-soldier and ex-sailor heart cases from special heart-treatment hospitals and clinics and place these men under panel practitioners who are not heart specialists?
    Major TRYON: The answer is in the negative. So long as the condition requires institutional treatment it will be provided. Treatment under the man's panel doctor is only recommended when the case is within the competence of the average medical practitioner.

    YORK AND LANCASTER REGIMENT (WILLIAM EASTWOOD).
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that William Eastwood, No. 3/6806, York and Lancaster Regiment, received an intimation in November, 1920, of a final gratuity of £37 10s. for gunshot wounds in back and side; that in December, 1921, he was awarded eight weeks at 12s. 6d., or £5 in all, on the same grounds; that in March, 1922, he was awarded a pension of £42 10s. on the ground of emphysema, to date back to 22nd January, 1921, and t hat in the, communication intimating this award he was told that it was subject to a deduction of the amounts he had already received; and whether the usual practice of the Ministry is to deal with cases in this manner, and, if so, why?
    Major TRYON: The gratuities, £37 10s. and £5, were awarded in respect of the gunshot wounds and were superseded by an award of pension which represented the degree of disablement arising from both the gunshot wounds and from emphysema, a condition not previously accepted as due to service. The earlier awards in respect of the gunshot wounds had therefore to be set off against the later award in respect of both disabilities. I may add that the compensation granted by the later award of March, 1922, was not £42 10s., as stated in the question, but pension at the 20 per cent. rate, which is still in payment.

    WORCESTERSHIRE REGIMENT (J. E. EVANS).
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Pensions whether he can now state his decision respecting the application for a pension made by J. E. Evans, No. 7,877, Regimental Quartermaster-Sergeant, Worcestershire Regiment, now residing at 40, Hopkins Street, Tipton?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): The Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital have decided to continue to Evans the pension of 1s. a day which until 18th July last, was issued to him by the Ministry of Pensions, and instructions have been given for the award to be paid with effect from 19th July last.

    RECOVERABLE ADVANCES.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Pensions whether he has issued an instruction prohibiting local pensions officers from continuing to make recoverable advances of pensions to men to whom payment cannot be made in the usual way by the local post office owing to the failure of the issue office to forward draft books at the proper time; is he aware that, as a direct consequence of this change in procedure, men who themselves, their wives, and families are entirely dependent upon the pension have no other course open but to apply to the relieving officers of guardians for temporary assistance; that this new policy is a further limitation of the powers of local pensions authorities; and that the system in operation hitherto has saved many men and their dependants from the workhouse; is this latest action by his Department due to efforts at economy; what

    2223
    is the saving estimated to be effected from this change of procedure; and what are the reasons far its enforcement?
    Major TRYON: The new system has been introduced in order to avoid the confusion and recoveries of overpayments which arose out of the old system. It secures that any break in payment of pension is immediately brought to the notice of Issue Office, who are in a position to rectify without delay any omission whether due to the pensioner or to any other cause, and to restore the pension to payment within a normal period of three days. Its progress is being carefully watched with a view to removing any cases of hardship. As the amount properly payable to the pensioner is the same under either system, no question of any economy at the expense of the pensioner arises.

    PENSION COMMITTEE REGULATIONS.
    Mr. FREDERICK ROBERTSasked the Minister of Pensions on what date the War Pensions Committee Regulations were submitted to a meeting of the Central Advisory Committee before being laid upon the Table of the House; and what were the subjects in respect of which this Committee's advice was obtained by correspondence between their meetings in July, 1922, and February, 1923?
    Major TRYON: The Regulations in question were considered by the Central Advisory Committee on the 12th April, 1922. The matters upon which the Committee's advice was obtained by correspondence between the meetings mentioned in the question were the proposals in regard to widows' pensions now embodied in the Royal Warrant of the 26th March, 1923.

    WIDOWS' PENSIONS.
    Mr. GRUNDYasked the Minister of Pensions whether the new Article 17 of the Warrant is designed to admit a greater number of widows to benefit; is he aware that, in view of the fact that the degree of disablement entitling a widow to benefit has been raised to 50 per cent., at which rate only 60,000 pensions are in issue compared with 430,000 at 40 per cent., the result will be to disqualify a much larger number of widows from any pension whatever?
    Major TRYON: I would remind the hon. Member that the new Article 17 must be read in conjunction with the other amendments of the Regulations and practice of the Ministry in regard to widows' claims, as indicated in the announcement which I made to the Press in January last, and of which a copy was quoted in my reply to the hon. Member for the Deritend Division of Birmingham (Mr. Smedley Crooke) on 22nd March. In cases where the man's death was wholly due to his war service, whatever his rate of disablement, the widow will be given pension at the rate of Article 11 without any time limit whatever.
    The new Article 17 enables a much higher rate of pension to he granted than was provided by the old Article in the case of the widows of those pensioners who died many years after discharge from service, in cases where the war disability, being in its nature and extent such as was likely to have materially diminished the man's working and physical powers, has contributed to his death. Having regard to the class of case in view, the minimum limit of 50 per cent. as the qualifying rate of disability pension was thought proper in place of the former rate of 40 per cent. It is not the case, as suggested in the question, that 430,000 men are assessed at the rate of 40 per cent. The number assessed at this rate is, at the present time, 64,000.

    ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (J. H. ATKIN).
    Mr. C. WHTEasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will inquire into the mode of procedure adopted in the medical examination of James Henry Atkin, No. 16,081, of Matlock, late of the Royal Field Artillery, who was examined at Derby on 1st March, 1922, the chairman of the medical board telling Atkin that he could appeal against the decision then given, which he did, when the same medical man was again chairman of the board, and Atkin's appeal was dismissed; and whether he approves of this method of procedure, or whether he thinks justice can be done to the pensioner under the circumstances?
    Major TRYON: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The second board referred to was not a medical appeal board but a board held to consider the man's claim that his condition had become worse since the examination

    2225
    on the 1st March. Had there been an appeal on the ground that the assessment given by the first board was inadequate, the man would have been examined by a medical appeal board entirely differently constituted from the board which had previously examined him.
    Mr. WHITE: Is it not a fact that the chairman of the board was the same man on each board, that in less than two months the examination took place, and that Dr. Latham was chairman of the board that advised the man to appeal and of the second board when the man did appeal?
    Major TRYON: I am afraid the hon. Member has not understood my answer. It is not a question of an appeal. The man claimed to have got worse since the last board, and it is quite natural that he should go back to the same board in order that they might see whether or not he had got worse. If it had been a case of an appeal, he would have had a different board.
    Mr. WHITE: What is the use of going back to the same board which had given a decision immediately previously?
    Major TRYON: I cannot think of any more suitable board than that which previously examined the man to ascertain whether or not he had become worse since his examination.
    Mr. WHITE: Would they not naturally confirm their previous decision?
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: Is it not a fact that thousands of ex-service men in the same position as this man are appearing before the medical boards and tribunals, and the game is being played upon them of "send the fool further "every time?
    Major TRYON: I am sorry that an hon. Member identified with the Labour party should refuse his sanction to our giving full opportunity to men who think themselves worse to be re-examined.

    DISABILITY PENSIONERS (H.M.S. "MAINE.").
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLE.asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that disability pensioners who are serving in His Majesty's hospital ship "Maine" have not been paid their disability pensions since May of last
    2226
    year; and whether he will take steps to authorise payment by the competent ship's officer?
    Major TRYON: I regret that I have not been able to trace the cases referred to, but if the hon. and gallant Member will let me have particulars of the pensioners he has in mind, I will have further inquiries made.

    ROYAL ENGINEERS (EX-SAPPER F. G. GORDON).
    Mr. BARKERasked the Minister of Pensions if be is aware that ex-Sapper Frederick George Gordon, No. 550,752, Royal Engineers, residing at "19, Wood Street, Cwmcarn, Mon., has had his pension (8s. per week) stopped; that this man joined the Service on 27th October, 1915, in perfect health and was certified A 1; that his medical officer will testify to this; that his employer states that he was a good workman and most efficient before enlistment; that he was discharged at Chatham in 1918 with 25 per cent. disability (V.D.A.); that he had trench fever in Belgium; and that he is now totally unable to work; and will he have this case reviewed?
    Major TRYON: The present disablement appears to be from rheumatism, a disability in respect of which the man first claimed pension about four years after service ended. No connection between the condition and service could be established, but there is a right of appeal to the tribunal against the Ministry's decision. There is also a right of appeal to the tribunal against the final award made in respect of valvular disease of the heart, from which only slight disablement was found when the man was last boarded.

    APPEALS (PROCEDURE).
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Pensions to what extent local pension officers are instructed to assist pensioners in preparing their cases for presentation before the appeal tribunals?
    Major TRYON: The chief area officer is required to inform appellants generally as to the procedure in making appeals to the tribunal, pointing out that the decision will be final and that the case should therefore be presented fully. He

    2227
    is also instructed to explain to what end the evidence should be directed and to furnish the appellant with forms specially designed to indicate the most useful type of evidence. Moreover, when the evidence is presented the Chief Area Officer is required to satisfy himself, as far as possible, that it is as complete as it is within the power of the appellant to make it, and, if not, to indicate the points on which it could usefully be strengthened.
    Mr. THOMSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases the other duties of the chief area officer do not give him the time necessary to give this friendly counsel to appellants, and will he see that someone else is deputed, so that they can have this friendly advice in order to prosecute their cases?
    Major TRYON: It would clearly be our duty to see that such advice was given, but I should prefer that where possible it should be given by the chief area officer, who is best qualified for the purpose.

    PENSIONS QUALIFICATION.
    Mr. A. J. BENNETTasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the proposals put forward in various quarters that any disease or incapacity should be considered as attributable to war service unless the contrary is proved, he can make a statement showing what would be the effect of the acceptance of such a proposal on both the work of the Ministry of Pensions and the finances of the country?
    Major TRYON: These proposals would alter the fundamental principle of the Royal Pensions Warrants laid down with the co-operation of all parties in this House. Under these Warrants the question whether a disability is attributable to or aggravated by war service is an issue of fact for the decision of the Ministry, subject, however, to appeal to an independent tribunal. The proposals referred to would in effect compel the Ministry to pay a pension to any man who has served, for however short a term at home or overseas, and who falls ill ham almost any complaint at any time in his subsequent life, unless the incapacity is shown not to be connected with his military service, although no evidence of any sort might be available in support of the claim. The State
    2228
    would, in short, be required to proceed on a presumption unsupported by any evidence. The result could only be the admission of very many claims for ailments for which the State could not fairly be held responsible, as except in a decreasing minority of the cases, it would become obviously impossible for the Ministry to obtain sufficient evidence from the circumstances of the man's civil life to rebut the presumption. It is not easy to calculate the obviously far-reaching financial consequences of such a measure.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: May I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to state to the House roughly what the cost of the proposal would be?
    Major TRYON: I am afraid I could not make an exact estimate, but if a man be entitled to a pension, he should get it, whatever the cost. The proposal is that a large number of people in distant years should get pensions to which they were not in any way entitled.

    8TH RIFLE BRIGADE (M. MCNAMARA).
    Mr. AMMONasked the Minister of Pensions whether M. McNamara, late of the 8th Rifle Brigade, was discharged from the Army with a 100 per cent. award, which assessment was later reduced by the Medical Boards; whether, on 29th June, 1921, he received a letter to the effect that he had been awarded the sum of £48 in respect of arrears of pension prior to the date that he came up for treatment; whether he is aware that McNamara has not received a penny of the £48, in spite of repeated applications; and can steps be taken to see that the money is paid to the man?
    Major TRYON: I regret that the notification referred to was issued in error. The man has been continuously in receipt of pension or treatment allowances since the date of his claim on the 12th October, 1920, in respect of his present disability, and there are no arrears due to him.
    Mr. AMMON: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the point as to whether this man was actually undergoing treatment before this notification was sent out? Surely he is entitled to the £48?
    Major TRYON: I shall be happy to send the hon. Member, for his information, a detailed statement of the man's account.

    EAST AND WEST MIDLAND REGIONS.
    Captain BERKELEYasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the prospective amalgamation of the East and West Midland regions, he is prepared to pool the existing staffs of both regions for the purpose of selecting the staff for the new combined region?
    Major TRYON: As stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. G. Spencer) on the 17th instant, I hope to be able to offer employment in Birmingham or in some other part of the Ministry to every competent officer displaced at Nottingham; but, should the number of volunteers for transfer to Birmingham exceed the requirements, I will bear in mind the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give me an assurance that the staff at Nottingham will be treated on an absolute equality?
    Major TRYON: I have already given an assurance that the staff will be fairly treated wherever they may be.
    Captain BERKELEY: Before the right hon. Gentleman comes to any final decision in the matter, will he be prepared to receive representatives of the men concerned?
    Major TRYON: I do not think I can agree that the staff of a particular district have the right to decide whether we form two regions or one.

    PENSIONS (COST).
    Mr. JOHN GUESTasked the Minister of Pensions the amount of the reduction in the cost of war pensions for the year ending 31st March, 1922; and if he can give the amount of such reduction which is due to a lessened administration and the reductions in payments to war pensioners, respectively?
    Major TRYON: The total expenditure (excluding cost of administration) of my Department for the year ending 31st March, 1922, was £90,035,516, as compared with £100,364,647 for the previous year, a decrease of £10,329,131, or 10 per cent. The cost of administration for the year ending 31st March, 1922, was £5,524,100, a decrease of £756,769, or 12 per cent. as compared with the previous year.

    ROYAL WARRANTS (CIRCULATION).
    Mr. J. GUESTasked the Minister of Pensions whether copies have been printed of the Royal Warrant dated 9th April, 1923, amending the Royal Warrant of 6th December, 1919, for the pensions of soldiers disabled, and the families of soldiers deceased, in consequence of the Great War; and, if so, whether it will be circulated to Members of this House?
    Major TRYON: This Warrant is in the hands of the printer, and I understand that copies will shortly be obtainable at the Vote Office.

    CONNAUGHT RANGERS (T. E. D. MACKRILL).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Minister of Pensions if he will cause to be reopened the case of ex-Private Thomas E. D. Mack-rill, No. 5,039, Con-naught Rangers, residing at 57, Hanover Square, Bradford, but now in Menston Asylum, who enlisted in 1901 (Irish Guards), was on the reserve when War broke out, applied for re-admission but was refused on medical grounds, enlisted again on 25th November, 1914, and was passed as sound, served in Ireland and France and then broke down, and was discharged on 21st December, 1915, with a 50 per cent. pension; whether he is aware that although up to the time of his second enlistment he worked regularly as a moulder and later as a seal finisher, his employer testifying to his regular and satisfactory service, he has, ever since his war service been in asylums suffering from organic disease of the brain; and that his pension paid for over six years has been stopped and his appeal turned down by the Leeds Appeal Tribunal?
    Major TRYON: The Tribunal have confirmed the decision on entitlement in this case, which cannot therefore be reopened. I may say that the disability has at no time been accepted as connected with service, but that for the duration of the War and a year afterwards my Department provided treatment under a temporary provision of the Royal Warrant which has now expired.
    Mr. LEACH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what ground the pension was paid, and why it was stopped?
    Major TRYON: I think perhaps the hon. Member might inquire from the right hon. Member for the Gorton Divi-

    2231
    sion (Mr. J. Hodge), who signed the Warrant.. It was a temporary provision for men, whose disability was clearly not due to war service, to enable them to get through the difficult period of the War.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    POOR LAW RELIEF.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Pensions how many disabled ex-service men whose pension has terminated are in receipt of Poor Law relief from the guardians?
    Major TRYON: I regret I have not this information.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what it amounts to?
    Major TRYON: No, I have not the information. We have only the records of our own pensions.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is it not possible to get this information from the boards of guardians through the Ministry of Health?

    MENTAL CASES.
    Sir EDWIN STOCKTONasked the Minister of Pensions the present policy of his Department in respect to the several hundred ex-service men for whose mental condition he accepts no responsibility attributable to war service?
    Major TRYON: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) on the 15th February last, of which I am sending him a copy.

    TUBERCULAR CASES (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Pensions how many ex-service men suffering from tubercular disease are being treated in village settlements?
    Major TRYON: I have not got the actual number of ex-service men in village settlements, as they include men whose tuberculosis has no connection with service. I am, however, endeavouring to ascertain the particulars asked for by the hon. Member.
    Mr. BRIANT: If there be any possibility or probability of this treatment being extended, will the right hon. Gen-
    2232
    tleman see that it is given, as it is of enormous advantage to the men physically, mentally, and morally?
    Major TRYON: I understand that that is a matter which concerns another Department, and if the hon. Member will put a question down, he will, I am sure, receive a reply.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Pensions whether it is proposed to terminate the appointments of Lieut.-General Sir W. Purse, Regional Director, London Region, who is in receipt of a service pension of £1,040 per annum; Major-General Sir J. Adye, Deputy-Regional Director, London Region, who is in receipt of a service pension of £1,000 per annum; Major-General F. H. Kelly, Regional Director, Northern Region, who is in receipt of a service pension of £1,000 per annum, and Colonel R. J. Copeland, Deputy-Commissioner of Medical Services, who is in receipt of a service pension of £800 per annum; what is the age of each of these officers; what was the original salary they received when entering the service of the Ministry; what increases in salary have been given since their initial appointments; whether any reduction has recently been made in their salaries; and, if so, what was the amount in each case?
    Major TRYON: These officers are efficiently performing highly important duties of which they have special experience and it would not be in the public interest to terminate their appointments at present. As the desired particulars of age and service involve a considerable number of figures, I am circulating them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it just, while so many unemployed ex-officers are walking about, to employ these gentlemen at their salaries; does he maintain that only these particular people can do this work, and, if so, what will he do if one of them happens to die?
    Major TRYON: I did not say these were the only people who could do the

    2233
    work, but we consider we have done our best in selecting the most suitable people for the appointments. I am certainly not prepared to consent to discriminating against ex-service men of any rank, high or low, because they have pensions, when we are selecting people for appointment or payment.

    Name.

    Age.

    Original Salary on appointment to Ministry.

    Alterations in Salary.

    Remarks.

    Lieut.-Gen. Sir W. T. Furse, K.C.B., D.S.O.

    58

    £800 3–1–20

    £1,000 1–4–20

    The increase shown in this case represents the higher rate approved for the post of Regional Director, London, to which Lieut.-Gen. Sir W. T. Furse was transferred from Birmingham on 1st April, 1920.

    £975 1–4–23

    Major-Gen. Sir John Adye, K.C.M.G., C.B.

    65

    £800 23–6–19

    £780 1–4–23

    —

    Major-Gen. F.H. Kelly, C.B., C.M.G.

    63

    £350 17–2–19

    £800 18–9–19

    Prior to appointment in September, 1919, as Regional Director, Major-Gen. Kelly held the post of "Officers' Friend."

    £900 1–1–20

    £875 1–4–23

    Col. R. J. Copeland

    …

    60

    £750 15–3–20

    £800 1–8–20

    Deputy Commissioner of Medical Services.

    £835 1–9–20

    £950 1–1–21

    £890 1–10–22

    Mr. CAIRNSasked the Minister of Pensions what are the duties of the secretariat of the Ministry; and what was the cost of the secretariat for the three months ending 31st March in the years 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922, and 1923?
    Major TRYON: The functions of the secretariat of the Ministry of Pensions are direction of policy under the Minister and general supervision and control of the Ministry machine. The secretariat was not set up until the end of the financial year 1918–19. The cost for the three months ending 31st March in the four following years was as follows:

    £

    3 months ending 31st March, 1920

    8,039

    3 months ending 31st March,1921

    10,169

    3 months ending 31st March,1922

    9,874

    3 months ending 31st March,1923

    9,563

    Mr. CAIRNS: Is it not a fact that the main work of the Secretariat is to reduce pensions?
    Major TRYON: No, Sir. The duty of the Secretariat is to assist us in carrying
    Mr. LANSBURY: Not in the case of men who have £800 a year pensions! Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman would put them on a level with the men who have pensions of 30s. a week? Here you have plenty of ex-officers who can do this work—[HON. MEMBERS "Order! "]
    Following are the particulars promised:
    out the general policy desired by the House, in the interest of the pensioners —a duty which I consider they are discharging to the public advantage.
    Mr. CAIRNSasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the high cost of the staff at the headquarters of the Ministry, as shown in the Estimates for the current year, namely, £1,105,712, as compared with the sum allocated to the regions, namely, £695,580, and for the area offices, namely, £569,708, it is proposed at an early date to effect economy by returning some of the principal officers and other permanent civil servants to those branches of the Civil Service whence they were transferred to the Ministry of Pensions?
    Major TRYON: I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the total amount shown in the Estimates for the current financial year in respect of the cost of the headquarters of the Ministry shows a reduction of more than 25 per cent. on the Estimate for 1922–23. More than half of the amount is for Pension

    2235
    Issue Office, which is concerned with the actual issue of pensions for the whole of the United Kingdom, with the exception of Scotland. Other large items in this Estimate provide for Officers' Branch, Special Grants Committee, and other branches which have no counterpart in the regions or areas. Of the total staff, less than three per cent. are permanent civil servants transferred from other Departments. Each of these officers is fully employed on important duties, and it would be the reverse of economy to dis-organise the work of the Ministry by withdrawing competent and experienced staff.
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Pensions the establishment number or name, present salary, and length of service in the Department of every woman officer who holds or has held a rank higher than that of a Grade I clerk and from which she has not been degraded on account of inability to fulfil the responsibilities of the grade concerned?
    Major TRYON: There are 99 temporary women now on the staff of my Department who hold a rank higher than that of a Grade I clerk. Their salary scales range from £165 to £345 per annum and their service from five to seven years. No reduction of status among these officers for reasons other than inefficiency has as yet been effected, but 26 of them have been warned that they may shortly become redundant in their present rank, and that continued employment can only be offered to them in a lower grade.
    Captain BERKELEY: How does the right hon. Gentleman define a "temporary" woman?
    Major TRYON: One who is not on the permanent establishment.
    Mr. JOHN DAVISONasked the Minister of Pensions how many temporary members of his staff who previously held rank above that of Grade III have been appointed to his Department as writing assistants; and, in each such woman's case, what is her present length of Government service, rate of pay, previous rank, and last salary received in a temporary capacity?
    Mr. ROBERT RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Pensions how many temporary members of his staff have been appointed to his Department as writing assistants; how many of these were previously employed as Grade III clerks; and what was the average length of Government service of the latter on appointment?
    Mr. FREDERICK HALLasked the Minister of Pensions how many temporary women members of his staff have been appointed to his Department as clerical officers; how many of these previously held a rank above that of Grade III; and what is the establishment number or name, length of Government service, present rate of pay, previous rank, and last salary received in a temporary capacity of each clerk concerned?
    Major TRYON: 156 temporary women officers of my Department have been established as clerical officers, and 379 as writing assistants. 117 of the clerical officers, and 116 of the writing assistants, were previously employed in a rank higher than Grade III. It will be realised that in view of the large numbers involved it is not practicable within the limits of this answer to give, the detailed information asked for in each individual case, but the average length of Government service prior to Establishment may be taken as about three years. The majority of the officers of rank above Grade III were paid on the scales for Grade I and Grade II clerks, of which the mean at the present time is 56s, 11d. a week for Grade I and 53s 5d. for Grade II. The mean of the rate for Grade III is 48s. 4d. The minimum rate of pay for clerical officers, including bonus at the current rate, is £144 per annum; for writing assistants it is 39s. 8d. weekly.
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Minister of Pensions how many women have been appointed to his Department in an established capacity by transfer from another Department, and in each such woman's case what was her rank and rate of pay prior to such transfer, what duties does she at present perform, and what is her present salary and rank?
    Major TRYON: The total number of established women who have been ap-

    2237
    pointed to the Ministry by transfer from other Departments is 49, of whom four were appointed from the recent special competition for women for higher posts

    No.

    Present Bank and Scale

    Rank and Scale prior to Transfer.

    1

    Lady Superintendent, Pension Issue Office.

    £350–£450

    Staff Clerk

    £170–£200

    1

    Senior Executive Officer

    £300–£400

    Supervisor

    £150–£190

    1

    Staff Accounts Officer

    £300–£400

    1st Class Woman Clerk

    £120–£150

    2

    Staff Officers

    1

    £330–£420

    1 Principal Woman Clerk

    £160–£200

    1

    £330–£400

    1 Assistant Inspector

    £100–£300

    22

    Higher Clerical Officers

    £230–£300

    1 H.C.O

    £230–£300

    1 Employment Officer

    £170–£220

    3 1st Class Women Clerks

    £120–£150

    11 2nd Class Women Clerks

    £65–£120

    1 Higher Grade Clerk

    £110–£150

    4 Clerical Officers

    £80–£180

    1 Lower Grade Clerk

    £60–£105

    17

    Clerical Officers

    £80–£180

    17 Clerical Officers

    £80–£180

    1

    Controller of Typists

    £230–£300

    Shorthand-Typist

    42s. weekly.

    3

    Chief Superintendents of Typists.

    £200–£230

    1 Shorthand-Typist

    42s. weekly.

    1 Chief Supt. of Typists

    £150–£180

    1 Shorthand-Typist

    38s. weekly.

    1

    Typist

    22s.–36s. weekly.

    1 Typist

    22s.–36s. weekly.

    In each case the officer is performing duties appropriate to the established rank held.

    TRADE COMBINES.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Prime Minister if he will introduce a Bill this Session making it illegal for manufacturers or merchants to combine together into associations which require their members to refuse to have any dealings with consumers who will not limit their purchases to members of these combines?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Viscount Wolmer): I have been asked to reply. The Government are not in a position to give any undertaking as to legislation on this matter.
    Mr. THOMSON: Is the Noble Lord aware that these combinations in restraint of trade are seriously forcing up prices in the building industry, and could not the Government consider doing something before their Housing Bill becomes law?
    Viscount WOLMER: The hon. Member is aware that the Minister of Health has already taken action with regard to building material.
    in the Civil Service. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the further particulars asked for.
    Following are the particulars:
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Is the Noble Lord aware that the Government of which the Prime Minister was a member, and at the time Leader of the House, pledged itself to introduce legislation?

    ARMAMENTS (INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether the Council of the League of Nations has called, or is calling, an international Conference at Geneva to discuss the extension of the principles of the Washington Naval Convention and other matters connected with armaments; who will be the British members of this Conference; whether he proposes to explain to the House of Commons the instructions given to the British members; and, if so, when, and which States outside the League of Nations have been invited to attend?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my replies to questions on this subject on 21st March and 26th March. No invitations to the proposed Conference have so far been issued.

    2239
    I am not yet in a position to say who will represent His Majesty's Government, or what instructions will be given.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it the policy of His Majesty's Government through our representative to invite all States willing to attend this Conference?
    Mr. McNEILL: I think if the hon. and gallant Member will look at the answers to which I have referred, he will see that that point is dealt with.

  TRADE UNION ACT (1913) AMENDMENT BILL.

    GOVERNMENT DECISION.
    Mr. CLARRYasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the desire for political freedom expressed by a section of trade unionists, the Government will facilitate the passage of the Trade Union Act (1913) Amendment Bill?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Baldwin): The Government propose shortly to adopt the course suggested by the Prime Minister at the General Election, and invite representatives of trades unions to discuss the matter with them, in the hope that some arrangement may be reached by which the position of members of trades unions who desire to contribute to any political party may be assured.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask why the Government support the Cotton Growing Bill on exactly the same principle as is raised in the question here?
    Mr. SEXTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to the Conservative and Unionist Association?

  PEACE TREATIES.

    GERMAN REPARATION.
    Mr. JAMES ERSKINEasked the Prime Minister whether the Government will now reconsider their policy of aloofness and join hands with France and Belgium with a view, not only of expediting a settlement of the reparation question, but also to hasten the evacuation of the Ruhr and contiguous territory?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I can add nothing to the repeated declarations of policy made on behalf of the Government relating to the action of France and Belgium in the Ruhr.
    Mr. ERSKINE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a speech made at the meeting of the Associated Chambers of Commerce yesterday, Mr. Arthur Balfour (Sheffield) is reported to have said:
    " Great Britain could not stand on one side and allow the present position——"
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot enter into that matter.

    ANGLO-GERMAN ARBITRAL TRIBUNAL.
    Colonel ALEXANDERasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the very large amount involved and the great number of claims still pending, it has yet been possible to arrange for the appointment of additional divisions of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal; and, if not, whether he can give any indication as to the date by which effect may be given to the earnest wishes of the British commercial community in the near future?
    Viscount WOLMER: Active steps are now being taken with a view to setting up an additional division of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal, and I hope that the arrangements will be completed at an early date.

    CONSTANTINOPLE (SALE OF ALCOHOL).
    Mr. SNELLasked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the verbal notification, which the Allied High Commissioners caused to be made to the Turkish authorities, that the Turkish law prohibiting the sale of alcohol in Constantinople must not be made effective, constituted an interference with the internal affairs of the Turkish Empire which is incompatible with Turkish sovereignty, he will issue instructions to the British High Commissioner to withdraw his opposition to the wishes of the Turkish Government in this matter?
    Mr. McNEILL: In reply to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the supplementary question by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) on this subject on the 17th instant. I would also

    2241
    remind the hon. Member that the state of war which was begun by Turkey's attack on the Allies in October, 1914, has not yet been brought to an end, and that the question of the rights now claimed by Turkey, to legislate for Allied subjects in matters where such rights did not exist before the War, is one which must be settled by the terms of the Treaty of Peace, and which cannot be decided by unilateral action on the part of the Turkish authorities in anticipation of that Treaty. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

    DEVOLUTION.
    Mr. ROBERT MORRISONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Report of the Speaker's Conference on Devolution, dated the 27th April, 1920, any and, if so, what steps will be taken in the near future to create subordinate legislatures within the United Kingdom with a view of enabling the Imperial Parliament to devote more attention to the general interests of the United Kingdom, and, in collaboration with the other Governments of the Empire, to matters of common Imperial concern?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The Government do not propose at present to take any action in this matter.

    BRITISH BROADCASTING COMPANY.
    Captain BERKELEYasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the widespread dissatisfaction with the terms of the licence granted by the Post Office to the British Broadcasting Company, and in view of the fact that the creation of such monopolies is contrary to public policy, the Government will review the whole position in order to secure the fullest development of a new and important industry?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I understand that a full statement will be made on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General on the Motion for the adjournment to-night.
    Captain BERKELEY: In view of the important issues raised by this, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of giving greater facilities for discussion than those afforded by a statement on the Adjournment to-night?
    Mr. BALDWIN: There will be the Post Office Estimates, if the statement to-night is not considered satisfactory.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: In the meantime, did not the British Broadcasting Company make a full statement by wireless last night?

    EQUALISATION OF RATES, LONDON.
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the unanimity in the three Reports issued by the majority and minorities of the Royal Commission on London Government on the necessity for some form of equalisation of rating in the Greater London area, he proposes to take any early action with a view to relieving those areas that are now paying excessively high rates?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): The Reports referred to are under consideration, and I am not at present in a. position to make any statement on the subject.

    POLICE INSPECTOR. J. R. S. CARTER (RETIREMENT).
    Sir J. REMNANTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that in ordinary circumstances a month's notice would have been required by the Commissioner of Police before the retirement of Inspector John Richard Stone Carter, who had secured his pension under the Police (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1915, could take effect, he can state what were the exceptional circumstances which led the Commissioner to decide, in December, 1918, to waive any question of further notice with a view to the retirement of this officer taking effect forthwith?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridge-man): I understand that the Commissioner took this action because he had come to the conclusion, having regard to this officer's attitude, that it was not in the interest of the force that his service should be further prolonged.
    Sir J. REMNANT: Seeing under the Police Act the Commissioner had no power to dismiss this man until notice, except in the case of some seriousoffence—

    2243
    and even then he had the right to have his case heard—and owing to the conditions did not have it heard—will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to place the full facts before him, which, I think, will alter the case?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I shall be very glad to discuss this very complicated case with the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. HAYES: Is not the case of ex-Inspector Carter the only case of the kind that has occurred during the War years, and was it not due to the fact that the officer made rather serious allegations against superior officers, which brought about his own retirement actually before he had been informed of it by his superior officer?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: A number of questions are involved in this matter, and I should like to have notice of that question. I cannot say off-hand whether the case is or is not the only one.

    CRIMINAL LAW CONVICTION (SENTENCE).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the sentence of seven days' imprisonment imposed at the Hants Assizes in February on a man of 44 found guilty of an offence against a girl of 14, who, as a result, is shortly to become a mother; and if he has made any inquiry into this case?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: My attention has been called to the case, but I have no authority to take action in regard to it.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the frequency of the very inadequate sentences in similar offences, and will he circularise the magistrates in regard to the necessity of dealing with these cases adequately?
    Mr. BRIANT: Has the right hon. Gentleman compared these sentences with those passed for the theft of sometimes a few shillings?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am not prepared to circularise the magistrates about cases of which they must of necessity know more than ourselves.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: May not the Home Secretary in this and similar cases very well take upon himself to circularise the magistrates as did his predecessor?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: If there was any reason to suppose that the general practice was unsatisfactory then it would, or might, be a different matter. But on a particular case or one or two cases it is not, I think, desirable to circularise the magistrates.
    Mr. J. HOPE SIMPSON: Was this sentence imposed by a magistrate or by a judge?
    Colonel Sir A. HOLBROOK: Was not this case heard at Assizes, where a magistrate would not preside?
    Major PAGET: Is it not the fact—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think the mention of "Assizes" implies that it was the sentence of a judge.

  IRISH FREE STATE.

    DEPORTEES.
    Captain BENNasked the Home Secretary for what reason he is unwilling to publish the document containing the undertakings given by the Irish Free State Government as to the deportees?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Very full statements in regard to the understandings with the Irish Free State Government have already been made in the House, and I do not think any public interest would be served by laying papers.
    Captain BENN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the objection to laying these documents?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not think the public interest will be served by so doing. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not believe the statements I made in the two debates, I cannot say any more.
    Captain BENN: In view of the character of the documents, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable to lay them that we may know?
    Mr. PRINGLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the public interest will be served by suppressing information?
    Mr. A. GREENWOODasked the Home Secretary whether the raid and arrests made in London during the early hours of Saturday morning last were undertaken at the request of the Irish Free State Government; whether the names of the two men arrested were supplied by the Free State Government; whether any steps have been taken to ascertain if the men under arrest are Irish citizens; and under what powers he took action?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Last Friday night the police visited the residences of certain persons whose names appeared upon a nominal roll of a section of the so-called Irish Republican Army in London. This action was taken by the police in the ordinary course of their duty without prior consultation with the Free State authorities. The second and third parts of the question, therefore, do not arise. The requisite powers are given by Article 51 of the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Why is it that, after all this tremendous organisation and this great raid, only two men were arrested?
    Captain BERKELEY: Are these men in custody?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: On this occasion was action taken under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act, or under police powers?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I understand that action was taken under Section 51 of the Regulations under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Under that Section is it possible for the police to search premises without any warrant whatsoever, either from the right hon. Gentleman or a magistrate?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I will send the hon. Member a copy of the Regulation.
    70. Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary whether Mr. McGlyn, of Tipping Street, Ardwick, Manchester, one of the Irish deportees, was released, not upon grounds of ill-health, but because he was arrested by mistake?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: McGlyn was released partly on the ground of health and
    2246
    partly because he had given an undertaking not to take part in activities against the Free State Government. He was not arrested by mistake.

    PRISON SHIP "ARGENTA."
    Mr. FRANK GRAYasked the Home Secretary (1) whether he can inform the House of the number of prisoners now upon the prison ship s.s. "Argenta," in Northern Ireland; whether there are among the men those who have been imprisoned for more than six months without any charge being preferred against them and without inquiry made into their cases; whether, having regard to the British contributions in this respect, the Government propose to take any steps in the matter;
    (2) whether he has received any complaints with regard to the conditions which prevail upon the prison ship s.s. "Argenta," in Northern Ireland; whether the conditions comply with regulations relating to English prisons; and whether His Majesty's Government accepts responsibility for such conditions as in fact prevail upon this prison ship, having regard to the contribution thereto from the British Exchequer?
    Sir M. MACNAGHTEN: On a point of Order. Is it in order to put a question in regard to matters of administration which are within the competence of the Irish Free State or the Northern Government of Ireland?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a further point of Order. Is not one of the prisoners confined in this prison ship an hon. Member of this House, and are we not, therefore, quite in order in asking for information in regard to it?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think it is very desirable that we should not have questions on matters which we have delegated by Statute to the Irish Governments. This question, I must say, had escaped my notice, but the hon. Member is only asking for information, and as the question has gone on the Paper, I think I must allow it to be put.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have no information on this matter, which is entirely within the control of the Government of Northern Ireland, and any questions thereon should be addressed to that Government. There is no British contribution in this respect.
    Mr. GRAY: Is it not a fact that the ship has been furnished at the cost of the English taxpayer, and is guarded and conducted by special constabulary, the cost of which is wholly settled by the English taxpayer?
    Viscount CURZON: Is it not a fact that you, Mr. Speaker, have not allowed hon. Members in this House to put questions relating to law and order in the self-governing Dominions, or in the case of India?
    Mr. HARRIS: But is Northern Ireland not represented in this House, and, therefore, is it not the case that it is not a Dominion?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The last question certainly does not apply. The Government of Northern Ireland is responsible for law and order in its own territory.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a point of Order. May I put it to you that this is a question of humanity, and that it has been the practice of this House to press the Government to make representations to foreign and the Dominion Governments on humanitarian issues? Was there not the case of the arrested strikers in South Africa, and also that recently of the ecclesiastics in Russia?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The House will recollect that, in the trouble we had in relation to the Irish Free State Government—
    An HON. MEMBER: And Canada.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I felt bound to rule on frequent occasions that, having transferred certain duties to the Free State, we must not interfere with them on the floor of this House. I ruled similarly in respect to the Dominion of South Africa. It is quite impossible, once having transferred responsibility to other bodies, that we should deal with matters on the floor of this House.
    Captain BENN: Is it not a fact that a Member of this House is interned in the ship, and would not that affect the matter?
    An HON. MEMBER: He has never taken his seat.
    Mr. SPEAKER: A point of privilege might be put to me on that, but not a question to Ministers

    POOR RATE COLLECTORS.
    Sir JOHN BUTCHERasked the Home Secretary what steps have been taken by the Irish Free State to submit to arbitration the cases of poor rate collectors in Southern Ireland who were deprived of their positions under duress by local bodies or by the Irish Republican Army in 1920 and 1921; whether these promised arbitration proceedings have been commenced; and when the results will be made public?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): I have been asked to answer this question. His Majesty's Government is in communication with the Government of the Irish Free State on this subject; and I trust that it will be possible at an early date to reach a satisfactory settlement the result of which I will give my hon. and learned Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the hon. Member aware that these unfortunate men were turned out of their positions by violence some two or three years ago without a farthing of compensation, and they have not yet received anything?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: What jurisdiction or what authority have we over the Irish Free State in regard to these rate collectors, in view of your recent ruling, Mr. Speaker?
    Mr. SPEAKER: My recollection is that we undertook some responsibility for civil servants. They were working under our authority before the transfer to the Free State took place, and I imagine that to be the ground.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: This arbitration deals entirely with these cases, and the correspondence has taken place between the Treasury here and the Treasury in Ireland.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will my hon. Friend do his best to get the Free State Government to come to an arbitration as soon as possible on this subject?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Every effort is being made in that direction.

    DEPORTATIONS (GLASGOW).
    Mr. J. MUIRasked the Home Secretary whether he is

    2249
    aware that the charges against John Gallacher of 1, Duncruin Street, Mary-hill, and Denis Breslin of 6, Clarendon Street, Glasgow, who were apprehended and detained on 6th and 9th April respectively, were yesterday withdrawn; that Gallacher and Breslin were not brought to trial; that deportation orders dated 5th March are being put into operation; that the police refuse relatives and solicitors access to the prisoners; and whether he will cause immediate inquiries to be made into these cases?
    Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Secretary for Health, Scotland): John Gallacher and Denis Breslin were apprehended on 6th and 9th April respectively in connection with a charge of theft of explosives. That charge was not proceeded with. Orders for internment had previously been made by the Secretary for Scotland in respect of these men, and these orders were accordingly executed.
    Mr. MUIR: Has the Secretary for Scotland satisfied himself that these men are Irishmen and are liable for deportation, and were the local police consulted or were they merely instructed in the matter?
    Captain ELLIOT: The Secretary for Scotland undoubtedly satisfied himself that these men were of Irish origin. The local police were certainly consulted before the step was taken which has been actually put into operation.
    Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Has the Secretary for Scotland satisfied himself as to their citizenship as distinct from their origin?
    Captain ELLIOT: We have been in communication with the Free State Government on this very question of citizenship. If any deportee claim that he, is domiciled in Great Britain, and does not intend to take up Irish citizenship, and desires on that account to be dealt with in this country, and not by the authority of the Free State, such representation will be immediately considered by either the Home Secretary or the Secretary for Scotland, as the case may be.
    Mr. MUIR: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that it is claimed that the order for deportation was made by the Secretary for Scotland? Is it not the deportation order which was signed by the Home Secretary on 5th March?
    Captain ELLIOT: No. The hon. Member appears to be under some misapprehension on that point. The Home Secretary has no power whatever to sign any order regarding the, deportation of anyone from Scotland. That is a matter which falls entirely under the jurisdiction of the Scottish authorities. The two deportation orders are in both cases signed by the Secretary for Scotland under which these two men were deported.
    Mr. MUIR: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, in order to discuss this matter.
    Mr. SPEAKER: This appears to be part of a matter on which we have had two Motions for the Adjournment. I cannot take another.

    STREET TRADING.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Home Secretary if a Bill to regulate street trading will be introduced this Session?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I hope to be able to introduce a Bill this Session.

    POLICE CANTEENS (INTOXICATING LIQUORS).
    Mr. FOOTasked the Home Secretary how manay local authorities have established, for the police, canteens where intoxicating liquor is supplied?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am not in possession of detailed information on this point, but, so far as I am aware, no such canteens have been established by the provincial police authorities. I understand that canteens, registered as clubs, exist in connection with a few provincial police forces, but that these are managed by the members of the force themselves.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Do hot the police rightly deserve something better than a "Pussyfoot" policy?

    ARDWICK CEMETERY, MANCHESTER.
    Dr. WATTSasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that permission is being sought to close the Ardwick Cementery, Manchester; and, if so, will

    2251
    he before giving that permission take steps to safeguard the rights of those people who own graves in that cemetery and who, having lived in the district all their lives, wish to be interred there when they die?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This cemetery was closed by an Order in Council in 1893, but the Order permits 'burials in existing graves under certain conditions. I have received no representations with a view to the entire closing of the cemetery.

    LICENSED PREMISES, LONDON (CLOSING HOURS).
    Mr. FOOTasked the Home Secretary the decisions arrived at by the several licensing authorities in the metropolitan area so far as the closing hour of public-houses is concerned?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: In 11 of the licensing districts in the Metropolis the permitted hours for the sale of intoxicating liquor end on weekdays at 10 p.m., namely:

    Hampstead,

    St. Marylebone,

    St. Pancras,

    Stoke Newington,

    Tower Hamlets,

    Paddington,

    Blackheath,

    Finsbury,

    Kensington,

    Newington,

    Wandsworth.

    In six districts the weekday hours end at 11 p.m., namely:

    Holborn,

    Liberty of the Verge of the Palaces,

    St. George's, Hanover Square,

    St. James's and St. Anne.

    St. Margaret's,

    Strand.

    In the City of London the weekday hours end at 10.30 p.m. The permitted hours on Sunday end at 10 p.m. in all the districts except five, namely, Black-heath, Fins-bury, Kensington, Newington and Wands-worth, where they end at 9 p.m.

    PRISON LABOUR.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that prison labour is being employed in the building of certain warders' houses in Old Oak Lane at a wage of 2s. 6d. per day; and, bearing in mind the large amount of unemployment in the neighbourhood, will he see that this is discontinued?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have recently had occasion to consider this matter on the representation of my hon. Friends the Members for North and South Hammersmith, with the result that the arrangements referred to in the question have now been discontinued.

    FIRE PREVENTION (ROYAL COMMISSION).
    Mr. BROADasked the Home Secretary when the Royal Commission on Fire Brigades and Fire Prevention, which was appointed in 1921, is expected to make its Report?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I understand that the Report is in an advanced stage, and may be expected before very long.

    MOTOR OMNIBUSES AND TRAM CARS (TICKETS).
    Captain MOREINGasked the Home Secretary whether he will consult the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis as to the advisability of making it a condition before granting a licence for motor omnibuses or tramcars that a receptacle for used tickets is provided, and thus prevent the streets being littered with scraps of paper?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I will consult the Commissioner on the subject.

    PUBLIC VEHICLES (INSPECTION).
    Mr. GROVESasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of revising the conditions appertaining to the inspection and licensing of public vehicles and, in the interests of public safety, will he be prepared to appoint officers possessing the requisite technical ability in the place of the present Metropolitan police officers?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: As stated in my predecessor's reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Battersea on the 9th May last, all men appointed to the inspecting staff are selected by reason of their former experience of engineering matters, and no man is appointed to the higher grades unless he possesses a certificate of competency in motor-car engineering and mechanics.

    FATAL ACCIDENTS (ROAD TRAFFIC).
    Sir THOMAS HENDERSONasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that nearly 75 per cent. of the fatal accidents in road traffic in Great Britain during 1922 were caused by mechanically-propelled vehicles other than omnibuses and tramcars, he is prepared to consider legislation to ensure the granting of driving licences only to persons who can prove their ability to drive and their knowledge of the rules and courtesies of the road?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Colonel W. Ashley): I have been asked to answer this question. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 13th March to the hon. Member for Berwick-on-Tweed, of which I am sending him a copy.

    SHIP-BUILDING (ACCIDENTS).
    Mr. J. DAVISONasked the Home Secretary if he is now in a position to state the composition of the Committee that is to be set up to inquire into accidents arising in ship-building and ship-repairing yards; and, if so, will he state the names and organisations represented, and the date when the Committee proposes to start its sittings?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The composition of the Committee is nearly completed, and I hope to make an announcement very shortly.

    CINEMA FILMS.
    Mr. SEXTONasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that cinema films depicting assaults by French military officers on German citizens in occupied German territory, by knocking off
    2254
    their hats and kicking them along the public streets during the passage of French troops, have been suppressed in this country by his Deparmtent; and, if so, for what reason was the instruction given to suppress them?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Nothing has been heard of these films at the Home Office. The second part does not therefore arise.
    Mr. SEXTON: Is it not. a fact that part of these pictures are now in London and are being exhibited?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I thought the hon. Member's contention was that they had been prohibited, and yet he says that they are being exhibited somewhere.
    Mr. McENTEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these films have been exhibited, or at any rate partly exhibited, and stopped suddenly in the middle, and when an explanation was asked for it was stated that they were put on by mistake?
    Mr. HANNON: Is this not a very subtle form of German propaganda?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not know anything about these pictures. I can only repeat what I have already said, namely, that whether they are going on as the hon. Member says, or whether they have been stopped, the Home Office has nothing to do with them.

    MAGISTRATES (NORFOLK).
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the organisation of a group of magistrates in Norfolk to sit on benches other than those where they usually adjudicate when cases arising from agricultural disputes are to be heard; and whether he has any power to prevent a practice which, if generally followed, might lead to a perversion of justice.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I understand that there have recently been occasions upon which magistrates for the County of Norfolk have sat or presented themselves to sit upon benches other than those where they usually adjudicate. My information on the subject is not complete, and I will confer with the Lord Chancellor upon it.
    Mr. EDMUND TURTON: Is it not the traditional custom for a justice of the peace to act for the particular division in which he resides; and is it not also a tradition that no justice shall act in more than one petty sessional division?
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman, in his experience as Home Secretary, not come across magistrates outside their own petty sessional district going to hear cases of widespread interest throughout the country?
    Captain FALCON: As a matter of fact, is it not quite unnecessary from the point of view of the person charged, because the person charged may object to being tried by that Court, and may be tried by a jury; and even if he is convicted by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, has he not a right of appeal to quarter sessions?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: My information is not complete as to what has happened, and I think I had better not now commit myself to an answer.

    STREET ACCIDENTS (MEDICAL ASSISTANCE).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Home Secretary what are the instructions to the Metropolitan Police Force in the case of a policeman being called to anyone in the streets suffering from illness of any kind and requiring the attendance of a doctor; is a constable empowered to call medical assistance from the nearest doctor, or must he call the police surgeon; and is any charge incurred borne by the police funds?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: In dealing with a case of illness in the street, the action to be taken by police must largely depend on circumstances, but their instructions are to obtain medical aid for the patient, either by securing his removal to hospital, or by summoning the nearest medical man, who may or may not be the police surgeon. Any charge made by a doctor called by the police is borne by the police fund, unless the patient's friends offer to meet the charge.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Home Secretary what are the arrangements made by the Metropolitan police for the call of ambulances in the case of street
    2256
    or other accidents in London; do the police provide and use any ambulances of their own; is there a working agreement with the London County Council and any other ambulance authorities for the call and use of their ambulances; and can he make any statement on the subject and say if the present methods are quite satisfactory?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Where a person injured in a street accident requires removal to hospital the police summon one of the London County Council motor ambulances if the accident is within the county area, and if it is elsewhere, they summon whatever motor or horsed ambulance may be available for use in the locality. If there is no such ambulance readily available, as may happen in some of the outlying districts, the police make use of the nearest hand ambulance. The only ambulances provided by the police for street accident purposes are hand ambulances, maintained at police stations and a number of other points. With regard to the last part of the question, I would refer to the statement made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
    Mr. BRIANT: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that these ambulances were not used for taking cases to the hospital?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Perhaps the hon. Member will refer to my answer.

    POLICE (RETIREMENTS).
    Mr. C. WILSONasked the Home Secretary whether he can state, for the five years ending 1913, the number of police constables and sergeants who retired from the force after serving not more than 5, 10, 15, 20 or 25 years, respectively; and whether he can state how many of such men were patrol men as distinguished from those performing other duties?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: As regards the Metropolitan police, the total number of men of all ranks who left the force owing to resignation, death or otherwise, during the five years in question, was 4,336, but details of their rank and length of service are not immediately available. I have no figures for the county and borough forces. To obtain particulars in the form asked

    2257
    for by the hon. Member it would be necessary to examine the individual records. This would involve a great expenditure of time and labour, especially if the inquiry were extended to the county and borough forces, and I should be most reluctant to ask for the preparation of any such return.

    PROBATION OFFICERS.
    Mr. C. WILSONasked the Home Secretary as to the number of Courts of Summary Jurisdiction in England and Wales, if he can state in how many of them probation officers have been appointed; whether such officers are male or female, full-time or part-time; and whether their remuneration is provided out of Court funds, public funds, or voluntary contribution, and what is the proportion of each?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: There are 1,042 petty sessional divisions in England and Wales. Of these, 840 have appointed probation officers, but in many cases the same officer acts for several Courts. The total number of probation officers is 851, of whom 538 are men and 313 women. Many of these officers do not devote their whole time to probation work in the strict sense, but undertake duties of a similar character connected with the Courts or other social work. Probation officers are paid out of local rates, but many of them belong to societies, and their remuneration is supplemented out of voluntary contributions. Information on this subject will be found in the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Training, Appointment and Payment of Probation Officers, which was published last year.

    BORSTAL INSTITUTIONS (TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION).
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Home Secretary whether he can say what is the total number of technical instructors in male Borstal Institutions, and what is the number of those who have served the full period of apprenticeship in the trade for which they are acting as instructors; whether he can give the number of improver-ships arranged for boys leaving those institutions in 1922–23 in the trade in which they have received instruction during their period of detention; and
    2258
    whether special technical advisory committees have been established for each trade in order that the Borstal Association may have the best advice in placing the lads on their discharge?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The technical instructors in male Borstal Institutions at present number 22. I cannot answer the second part of the question without obtaining the particulars from each institution. To answer the third part would require examination of the records of the Borstal Association, who supervise the lads on discharge and are responsible for providing employment. The answer to the last part is in the negative, but certain proposals for improving the organisation of trade teaching, and bringing it into closer touch with the requirements of possible employers, are now under my consideration.
    Mr. J. H. SIMPSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many Borstal Institutions there are?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am not quite sure.

    TRAINING COLLEGES.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that Miss K. Fenton, 39, Field Side, Thorne, near Don-caster, who was accepted last October as a student by the City of Leeds College at a fee of 30 per year, has now been notified that the fee is increased to £80 per year and, as a consequence, has been compelled to forfeit her place; and what steps he intends to take to deal with this and similar cases?
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the President of the Board of Education whether, seeing that the high fees which local education authorities conducting training colleges have found it necessary, for their own protection, to impose on students from other areas will inevitably involve the selection of candidates for admission to the colleges next September on grounds of relative wealth rather than on grounds of relative merit, in these circumstances, he can, pending the Report of the Departmental Committee, find some means of enabling the local education authorities concerned to avoid discrimination against poor and meritorious candidates for admission?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy): I am aware that the fee for extra-Leeds students at the City of Leeds Training College has been increased from £30 to £80. With regard to the last part of Question No. 84, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, deal with this together with Question No. 93. As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to the hon. Member for the Roth-well Division of the West Riding (Mr. Lunn) on the 15th February, and to the Noble Lord on the 22nd February, he cannot but attribute the present situation largely to the unwillingness of Local Education Authorities who do not provide Training Colleges, but whose students use the Training Colleges of other Local Education Authorities, to cooperate with those Local Education Authorities, either by contributing to the cost of the colleges or by assisting students from their own areas to pay the increased fees. My right hon. Friend greatly regrets the failure of Local Education Authorities generally to come into a reasonable arrangement in this respect, but he has at present no power to compel them to do so. The Government are, however, fully alive to the educational disadvantages resulting from the imposition of very high fees, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has consented to allow the expenditure of a limited sum in the present financial year in order to relieve the situation. It must be clearly understood that this concession is made for one year only, and that it must not in any way be used to prejudice the question now before the Departmental Committee, or any action which may subsequently be taken as the result of their recommendations. Provisions for the application of the money will be included in the Board's Grant Regulations No. 4. In the meantime I must ask Local Education Authorities to defer their final selection of candidates for admission to their colleges.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Do I understand the Noble Lord to say that in cases similar to the one in question, where the parents have made extraordinary sacrifices, there will be a possibility, under the latest giant, of the students continuing their education?
    Lord E. PERCY: The Regulation which will be isued will deal with the dis-
    2260
    tribution of the money, and, for the rest, I thinks that question rests with the particular training college.
    Mr. SHORT: Is not this position due to the fact that the Board of Education has gone back on the bargain that it made with local authorities who were willing to provide these training colleges? Does it not arise out of the operation of Circular 1297?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: What opportunity will there be for children resident in rural areas several miles away from a college to gain any advantage from this suggested concession?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We are now debating the question.

    JUTE AND POTTERY TRADE DISPUTES.
    Mr. BALFOURasked the Minister of Labour whether he is in a position to give any information concerning the disputes in the jute and pottery industries?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): With regard to the jute dispute, I am glad to be able to state that, thanks to the assistance which Sir David Shackle-ton has been able to give on behalf of my Department, an agreement has been arrived at as a result of which work will be recommenced.
    In the case of the pottery trade, the employers' and workers' organisations have now been able to reach substantial agreement on the matters in dispute.

    BUILDING MATERIALS PRICES (COMMITTEE).
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Health whether he is yet in a position to give the names of the members of the Committee which is being appointed to watch the prices of building materials.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir. The Committee will be constituted as follows:

    Sir Halford Mackinder, Chairman.

    The hon. Member for the Hillsborough Division of Sheffield (Mr. A. V. Alexander).

    Sir Theodore Chambers, K.B.E.

    Sir Charles T. Ruthen.

    Mr. R. Coppock.

    2261

    Mr. Stephen Fasten.

    Mr. E. R. Eddison.

    Mr. George Hicks.

    Mr. J. Stanley Holmes.

    Mr. W. T. Lancashire.

    Lieut.-Colonel Cecil B. Levita, C.B.E., M.V.O., J.P.

    Mr. D. Ronald (Scottish Board of Health).

    Mr. J. Walker Smith (Ministry of Health).

    Mr. SHORT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a woman member of this Committee?
    Mr. H. H. SPENCER: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of making a public statement that no public money will be granted to any trade which has rings in it?

    BRITISH SHELLS, FRANCE.
    Captain TERRELLasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the French authorities have placed an embargo on the exportation from France to England of British shells, which have been emptied by English firms in France; furthermore, whether he is aware that the French authorities have suddenly ordered the removal from their ports of several thousand tons of shells which have been collected for export to English steelworks; and will he take immediate steps to see that British-made shells originally sent over for use by the British Army may be returned without undue interference to this country for use in our steelworks?
    Mr. McNEILL: My attention had not previously been called to the order for the removal from French ports of emptied British shells, but I am fully aware that the French Government have prohibited the export from France of iron and steel scrap, in which category these shells are included. His Majesty's Government have for weeks past been doing their utmost in Paris to secure a relaxation of the prohibition, and they have lately addressed a protest to the French Government calling attention to the breach of Article 3 of the Anglo-French Convention of 1882 involved by the French relaxation of the prohibition in the case of Italy and Belgium, but not of
    2262
    the United Kingdom. I regret to state that in their reply the French Government, whilst attempting to justify their action, pass by, unmentioned, this violation of the Treaty. His Majesty's Minister in Paris is being instructed to make urgent representations to the French Government in regard to the shells, which are regarded by His Majesy's Government as a matter of importance.
    Mr. GRAY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the result of the French action in putting on this embargo has been to raise the price of steel scrap, a very necessary raw material, £2 a ton?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have no such information.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what business he proposes to take next week, and will he at the same time tell us when he proposes to have the adjourned Debate on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden); and, further, is it the intention of the Government to give a day for the discussion of the capital levy?
Mr. J. JONES: Before the right hon. Gentleman replies—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am going to claim my rights.
Mr. SPEAKER: If there be anything which is not complete in the answer, I will hear the hon. Member afterwards.
Mr. BALDWIN: Monday: The Report stage of the Budget Resolutions.
Tuesday and Wednesday: The Housing Bill, Second Reading.
Thursday: Supply; the Ministry of Labour Vote.
With regard to the first question of the hon. Member I cannot name a date yet for the continuation and conclusion of that particular Debate. With regard to the second question, we should like to find time, and we will consider the matter and give him a definite reply later. I am afraid in any case it could not be in the immediate future.
Mr. JONES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this morning's

2263
Press it is reported that the Mineral Water Manufacturers' Association have decided—
Mr. SPEAKER: That appears to be a question of which notice should be given.
Mr. JONES: Will you allow me to complete it—have decided that they will not give the public the advantage of the reduction in the duty, and I should like to ask if the hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability of withdrawing the allowance?
Mr. BALDWIN: As the hon. Member is interested in mineral waters, I will consider it.
Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: In view of the fact that the discussion on the Agriculture Vote to-day will be confined to English administrative questions, and the voice of Scotland will probably not be heard, may I ask when the Government is going to give the day for a general discussion on agriculture, which has already been promised for that purpose?
Mr. BALDWIN: I think we must wait for the ruling of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
Mr. MACPHERSON: When can the right hon. Gentleman give a day for the discussion of Scottish Estimates?
Mr. BALDWIN: That is a matter for arrangement through the usual channels.
Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: Referring to the Motion in the name of the Minister of Health, what course is proposed to be taken in reference to the Bill in connection with the same matter, notice of which was given at the beginning of the Session to amend the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Restriction Act? Is it proposed to proceed with it or to abandon it?
Mr. SPEAKER: We shall hear that from the Minister on the next Motion.

RENT RESTRICTIONS (CONTINUANCE).
The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): I beg to move,
" That leave he given to introduce a Bill to continue the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920, and any enactment amending that Act, until the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three."
2264
The House is aware that I have in preparation a Measure designed to meet the situation which will arise when the present Rent Restrictions Act comes to an end, and certain Members have already foreseen that the time available for dealing with this new Measure is very short. After having looked carefully into the matter myself, I have come to the conclusion that it is absolutely essential to prolong the life of the present Act for a brief period, in order that we may have a sufficient breathing space in which to discuss the details of the new Measure which I propose to introduce. I need hardly say that the source of all my troubles is to be found in Scotland. All I mean by that observation is that the Act which comes to an end in England and Wales on the 24th June expires in Scotland on the 28th May. I would like to ask the House to consider for a moment what sort of a time-table that means, if we are to get through the new Bill in time. Whit-Sunday falls on 20th May, and, if I am to assume that the House desires to have some short rest from its labours, it, is clear that I cannot count on any time between then and 28th May. Therefore, the last day of Parliamentary time available to me would be Thursday, 17th May. At the very earliest, it would not be possible for me to move the Second Reading of the Bill before Monday, 30th of this month, and, if hon. Members will count, they will find that, excluding Fridays, that leaves me only 10 days of Parliamentary time for the Committee stage, the Report stage, and the Third Reading in this House and all the stages of the Bill in the House of Lords.
Mr. PRINGLE: Make it retrospective.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That seems to me obviously insufficient time to deal with a Measure of this importance, even if I assume, as I suppose I may, that it will prove to be entirely non-contentious. If that be so, it only remains to consider how much more time we want, and I think perhaps I had better read to the House the Bill, which is very short and consists of only one operative Clause:—
" The Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act of 1920 and any enactments amending that Act shall continue in force until the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three."

2265
I think that will give me really a little more time than I shall require, but it is best to be on the safe side and to have a little more rather than a little less. I may be asked why it is that I have not been able to get this Bill into a little more forward stage. If that be made the subject of a charge against me, I would remind the House that I have been in office only just six weeks, and I have been very busily engaged with a Housing Bill and with a great number of other matters, some of them of considerable importance, and with which a new Minister must necessarily make himself acquainted. I certainly do not want to ask for any unreasonable latitude, and I appreciate the anxiety of the House and of the country to have the Government policy upon this matter stated at the earliest possible moment, but in the course of my comparatively short experience of Parliamentary life I have seen mote than one Measure brought into this House which was ill-digested, thereby causing us considerable waste of time afterwards in amendment and alteration. I do not want, if I can help it, to be responsible for any repetition of that sort of thing, and I am certain that the House will not desire to take any unfair advantage of a man who has been so short a time in office, but will recognise that the request which I am now making for leave to introduce this Bill is not only reasonable in itself but will eventually be to the benefit of all concerned.
Mr. PRINGLE rose—
Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Member rise to oppose the Motion?
Mr. PRINGLE: Yes, Sir. I desire to oppose the Motion which has just been made, first of all, on the ground that if the House gives leave to introduce this Bill it will be condoning the culpable negligence of His Majesty's Ministers. We are delighted to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that there is to be a new departure in this particular branch of legislation, and that the House, so far as the principal Measure is concerned, is not to be under the necessity of discussing ill-digested legislation. That will be a novel experience for the House. We sympathise with the difficulties of the right hon. Gentleman as a Minister of recent creation, so far as his present Department is concerned, but we are con-
2266
cerned, not with him personally, but with His Majesty's Government. His Majesty's Government came into office in the month of October. They have now been six months in office. They knew six months ago that this was an urgent problem. The Prime Minister knew that it was an urgent problem during his Glasgow election—he knew that it was the most urgent problem there—and the right hon. Gentleman has had more recent experience in regard to Mitcham. It is no use telling us that the Government have not decided upon their policy, because in the course of that election the Prime Minister made an authoritative pronouncement of Government policy for the guidance of the electors in that division, and I say, as they made a definite statement then, that there is no reason whatever why this Government should not have introduced a Bill founded on this policy long ago, and have given the House ample opportunity for its discussion. I say therefore that if we give the Government leave to introduce this stop-gap Measure we are condoning that culpable negligence.
That is not all. I am not merely objecting to this Motion by way of protest. I believe that this course is causing great inconvenience to the public. The existing Act comes to an end in Scotland on the 28th May and in England on the 30th June. For weeks pact questions have been put in this House to the Prime Minister, both by my hon. Friend opposite the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) and by myself, calling the attention of the Government to the shortness of time available, and all our representations during these weeks have been treated as of no account. What will be the effect of this stop-gap Bill? The public is to be kept for a still longer period in the dark as to the actual proposals of the Government. Even if this Bill be introduced now, people outside, both landlords and tenants alike, will be left in the dark as to what their position will be. They will not know whether at the end of the period they will be in a position to remain in their present houses, nor under what conditions they will be able to stay. I say therefore that to accept this Bill will be to allow the Government to defer still longer the announcement of their policy. This Bill not only condones negligence and it is not only causing inconvenience, but I say further that it is unnecessary. There is no reason

2267
why the Government should not tomorrow introduce their main Bill and have provisions in it stating that it will operate, as respects Scotland, from 28th May, and, as regards England, from the 30th June.
Major Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: Tomorrow is a Private Member's day.
Mr. PRINGLE: Well, on Monday. It would not need to be passed by these dates. It would operate when it came into force, and nobody would take action pending the enactment of that principal Act. When the original Act of 1920 was passed, that was precisely the course which was adopted. Certain provisions of that Act operated from the 31st March of the year 1920. Why could not the same course be adopted in the main proposals of the Government now? I say that it is totally unnecessary to have this legislation. The Government can introduce their Bill at once. They have ample time to pass it. They will be able to give the House full opportunity for discussion. This Bill is unnecessary. It merely enables them to prolong the delay, to defer their statement of policy, to keep the public in the dark, and to interfere with public convenience. On these grounds, I hope that the House will refuse to give leave to introduce this absurd stop-gap Measure.
Question,
" That leave be given to bring in a Bill to continue the Increase of Rent and Mortgage interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920, and any enactment amending that Act, until the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three,"
put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Mr. Attorney-General, Captain Elliot, and Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.

INCREASE OF RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST RESTRICTIONS (CONTINUANCE) BILL,
" to continue the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920, and any enactment amending that Act, until the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 97.]

BILLS REPORTED.
Metropolitan Railway (Various Powers) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
South Oxford-shire Water and Gas Bill [Lords],
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer additional powers upon the London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Company for the construction of railway widenings; to authorise that company and the Midland and Great Northern Railways Joint Committee to acquire lands; and for other purposes." [London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill [Lords].
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the vesting of the undertaking of the Swansea Harbour Trustees in the Great Western Railway Company; and for other purposes." [Great Western Railway (Swansea Harbour Vesting) Bill [Lords].
Guardianship of Infants Bill [Lords],
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of six Lords to join with a Committee of this House to consider the Guardianship of Infants Bill [Lords], and request this House to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.
London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill [Lords],
Great Western Railway (Swansea Harbour Vesting) Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

MINES (WORKING FACILITIES AND SUPPORT) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 96.]

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Sir Cyril Cobb to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill); Sir Samuel Roberts as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Special Constables Bill); and Mr. Gilbert as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the War Memorials (Local Authorities' Powers) Bill and the Cotton Industry Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [THIRD ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

  SUPPLY.
    CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1923–24.
      CLASS II.

        MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
        Motion made, and Question proposed,
        " That a. sum, not exceeding £1,064,451, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, including Grants for Agricultural Education and Research, a Grant-in-Aid of the Small Holdings Account, and certain other Grants-in-Aid; and of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew."—[NOTE: £700,000 has been voted on account.]
        Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Before the Debate starts, Mr. Hope, may I put before you a point of Order? You are no doubt aware that a question was put to Mr. Speaker yesterday as to whether the ruling to-day would be a strict ruling according to the Standing Orders. Mr. Speaker replied that he could not interfere, as you would be in the Chair. May I ask what is your intention regarding the ruling on the scope of to-clay's Debate?
        The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Robert Sanders): May I suggest, Mr. Hope, that it would be for the convenience of the great majority of the Committee if this Debate took the widest scope possible? I understood yesterday that a certain number of hon. Members from Scotland were afraid that the interests of Scotland could not be properly discussed in this Debate. I cannot anticipate your ruling, but should you allow a general Debate, the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health will be present and will he ready to answer to the best of his ability any Scottish questions that may be put to him.
        Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: May I point out that Debate in Committee of
        2328
        Supply is governed by the Standing Orders, and the Standing Orders say that no business that involves legislation can be discussed in Committee of Supply if anyone objects? Therefore, I submit that should any hon. Member take objection, believing that a full day should be given for the discussion of agriculture, that objection must weigh with you and you should rule such a discussion out of order.
        The CHAIRMAN: From the rule and practice governing Debate in Committee of Supply, it is quite clear that it must be confined to matters of administration, and that matters involving legislation are not in order. But, undoubtedly, there are occasions in which a strict enforcement of the rule would cause great embarrassment to the House. It may happen that a subject is in hon. Members' minds which is certainly relevant to the discussion, but at the same time is outside the rules of order. I may cite, as an instance, the fact that on the occasion of the unhappy tragedy of the death of Sir Henry Wilson last year, it was the desire of the House, to which I acceded, that the action of the Home Office and certain matters in regard to the Criminal Investigation Department of the Metropolitan police should be discussed upon the Irish Vote. Something similar is in my mind on the present occasion, and, after fully considering the circumstances, I have come to the conclusion that I ought to allow references to the Agriculture Tribunal investigation to he made in the discussion, unless formal objection is taken on behalf of any party in this House to my so doing.
        Mr. LAMBERT: I do not quite understand your ruling. It seems to me that if you rule that objection must he taken by a party in this House, it deprives the private Member of his rights. Surely the Leaders of a party have no more right to raise a point of Order and to receive your favourable consideration on that point of Order than a private Member. I wish to secure the rights of the private Members. It would be a very dangerous precedent if you admitted that a private Member could not have the same rights of objection according to the Standing Orders as a Leader of a party.
        The CHAIRMAN: What I had in my mind is this, that there is a rule which

        2329
        it is my duty to enforce, but at the same time I am conscious of the fact that to do so would be against the general sense of the House, and when that is clear to my mind I think, following upon various precedents, both in Committee of Supply and when Mr. Speaker has been in the Chair, it is my duty to consider that in such a matter the House has been willing to allow the Chair certain discretionary power. I do not, however, think that an individual Member ought to be able to override the general sense of the House, but, undoubtedly, if objection were taken on behalf of any considerable section of the House, I do not think I should be justified in consulting the wishes of the majority against the wishes of any substantial minority.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: On a point of Order. I submit that the appointment of the Committee of Inquiry, the scope of its investigations, and the method of its investigation are matters of administration, and that whether an individual object or not, that would come within the Rules of the House, and that therefore, we could discuss it. While we cannot discuss specific recommendations which include legislation, unless there be the general sense of the House in favour of such discussion in Committee of Supply, I submit that the question of the appointment of the Committee of Inquiry, the scope of its investigation, the methods of its investigation, and matters of that sort come well within the rule, because these are matters which are on the Estimate. This was the appointmeat of a Committee of Inquiry without any legislation on the part of the House of Commons.
        The CHAIRMAN: If there be any item in the Estimate for the expenses of this Commission, undoubtedly it would he in order to discuss its appointment, and whether suitable persons were appointed, but it would not be in order to discuss their recommendations. As a matter of fact, this was not an appointment by the Minister of Agriculture but by the Prime Minister.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: The Debate to-day should either be one way or the other. A debate which purports to be a Debate in Committee of Supply, and one in which we may make some excursion, always having it in our minds that we must try
        2330
        to attune our language to the point of Order, is to the members of the agriculture party, entirely unsatisfactory. If it be the general sense of the Committee that we should have a general debate, we are perfectly willing, but if that debate is to be limited in any way, we would father confine to-day's Debate to Supply, and get another day later for the wider discussion.
        Captain BENN: I objected last year or the year before on a similar occasion when Sir Eric Geddes proposed to use a Supply clay for the purpose of outlining the Government's proposed legislation in regard to railways, and if the Government propose to use to-day, which has been set aside as a Supply day, on which private Members can examine administration, for the purpose of outlining their legislative proposals, I object.
        Mr. FALCONER: What the Committee and what the country are anxious to know is what is to be the policy of the Government, and to discuss it in all its aspects. A mere discussion in which one can make references to a Report is of no interest to anyone. I suggest very respectfully to the Government that much the best way would be either to let us have a full Debate to-day and to discuss the question in all its aspects in regard to agriculture policy, or to put off discussion upon the wider question until we can have a special day set apart. This is, perhaps, the most serious question of policy which the Government have to face at the present time.
        Mr. MacDONALD: As far as we are concerned, we are perfectly prepared to have it either way. We are perfectly prepared to put ourselves behind the consent of the Committee. If the Committee desire to debate the matter fully, I think it ought to be allowed by the Chair, and that the Chairman should exercise his discretion to the fullest extent. If we are not to have the general policy of the Government debated to-day, I think the Government ought to give us a, very firm pledge that, without delay, a day will he given to debate the subjects that we cannot debate to-day. From the point of view of mere administration—although the word "mere" perhaps is not a good word to use on this occasion—there is much to be said. I would add my voice to the appeal made by the right hon.

        2331
        Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), who, speaking on behalf of the Members representing agricultural constituencies, said that what we are going to do to-day should be clearly defined, one way or another. We are prepared to accept that.
        Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Speaking on behalf of those with whom I am associated, we should certainly assent to the greatest latitude being given to the discussion of the problems affecting agriculture, but if objection be raised in such a degree as to make it impossible for the Chair to rule that the general assent has been recorded, then I would endorse the appeal made by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford—that a day should be given, and an early day, to discuss what I consider to be the mast important economic problem of the day.
        The CHAIRMAN: May I ask the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) if he persists in his objection?
        Captain BENN: Yes. I submit that this day is set aside for the purpose of examining administration. I submit that it is impossible to combine that with a full Debate on the important questions arising in connection with agriculture to-day. In these circumstances, I claim that the Rules of Order do not permit the Government to use this Supply day for outlining their proposed legislation.
        The CHAIRMAN: I should like to ask the hon. and gallant Member whether he is authorised to make that objection by the party with which he is associated?
        Captain BENN: I found myself on the Standing Orders of the House.
        The CHAIRMAN: In these circumstances, it does not appear that any party has raised a formal objection.
        Mr. PRINGLE rose [HON. MEMBERS: "Order! "]
        The CHAIRMAN: Accordingly, I do not object to any hon. Member who wishes to do so discussing the Report of the Agricultural Tribunal on this Vote.
        Mr. PRINGLE: I understood that you called upon the hon. and gallant Member for Leith to know whether, in making his statement, he represented the party for whom he speaks from the Front Bench. You have since declared that he does not.
        2332
        In these circumstances, I wish to state, on behalf of the members of the party with which I am associated, sitting below the Gangway, that we share the view of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith, and, as far as that party is concerned, we take objection.
        The CHAIRMAN: It is quite obvious that no hon. Member was deputed and authorised to speak on behalf of that party.
        Captain BENN: May I cite the following passage from Erskine May's "Parliamentary Procedure "—
        " Matters involving legislation cannot be discussed in Committee of Supply."
        May I also most respectfully and emphatically protest against the new doctrine that hon. Members are not entitled to the protection of the Standing Orders unless they speak on behalf of what is called a party?
        Mr. PRINGLE: On a point, of Order. I wish to ask, Mr. Hope, whether you indicated to any party Leader or to any party Whip that, a party decision was required in this matter? Apart from any such intimation, your ruling, I submit, takes the Committee by surprise. I am in a position to inform you that, in so far as consultations have taken place within the party for which I am speaking, those consultations resulted in a decision to adhere as far as we were concerned to the Standing Orders. We felt that so far as we were concerned we were under no obligation to restore to the Government a day which was lost by disorder in other quarters of the House.
        The CHAIRMAN: I have endeavoured to ascertain the wishes of the House in order to make up my mind on the matter. Now it is clear that no formal objection has been taken by the party to which the hon. Member belongs. [HON. MEMBERS: "There has been! "]
        Mr. VIVIAN PHILLIPPS: Only as recently as yesterday I, on behalf of those with whom I am associated, did definitely and formally intimate to the Patronage Secretary that we were not willing that this course should be taken.
        The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member for West Edinburgh (Mr. Phillipps) formally object, now on behalf of his party?
        Mr. PHILLIPPS: Without prejudice to your ruling, and, if I may respectfully say so, objecting to the doctrine that a party in this House must take such formal objection, I do object on behalf of those with whom I am associated.
        The CHAIRMAN: Then I think that I must adhere to the ordinary Rule of the House, and limit discussion to administrative matters.
        Mr. MacDONALD: As the substantial question has now been settled, I think it necessary, in the position which I hold, to offer my protest against this latest innovation by which representatives of parties are cross-examined as to whether they speak officially for parties, so that, in accordance with the answers which they give to that question, it may be decided whether the Rules of the House are to he obeyed or not.
        The CHAIRMAN: The sole motive which I had in this matter was to endeavour to ascertain whether the proposed course had the general consent of the Committee. If objection were taken merely by individuals, I should think that I had the general consent of the Committee in deciding to waive the Rule, but if I find an organised body of opinion taking objection, and their proper representative protesting, then I have no option but to enforce the ordinary Rules.
        Captain BENN: Then may I ask what course, under the Standing Orders, is open to hon. Members who wish to challenge a ruling which is utterly destructive of the rights of minorities?
        The CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member will put down a Motion of censure on the conduct of the Chair, it can be debated, no doubt, in due course.
        Captain BENN: I will do so.
        Sir R. SANDERS: I believe that the desire of the Government in the course which was suggested was only to do that which would be most convenient to the general body of Members of the House. Now that it has been decided that we are merely to present the Estimates in the ordinary way, I will, in doing so, first refer to a matter which I think must be alluded to when each of the Estimates is presented, that is the economies which it has been possible for the Department to make. In the year which is just over
        2334
        the savings amounted to 35 per cent. This year they only amount to £47,000, or 2 per cent, but that is accounted for by the very largo increase in the matter of land settlement, a matter which does not depend on the administration of the Department. But for that, the decreases in the Estimates would amount to £236,000. In other words, they would be down on those of last year by about 30 per cent. With regard to economy in the Department, the expenditure, taking the two years together, is down altogether by 41 per cent., and savings have been effected, actually, to the extent of £34,000 beyond those recommended by the Geddes Committee and those recommended by the Committee of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne). In making these savings a very considerable reduction has been made in the staff. It has been reduced altogether by 34 per cent. since July, 1921. The present staff includes 67 per cent. of ex-service men.
        Coming to the various Departments of the Ministry, there is, first of all, the important one of education and research. When the Agriculture Act was repealed a sum of £850,000 was set apart for the purposes of agricultural research and education. With the interest on that sum the total now available is £910,000. I wish to refer to a few of the things to which that large sum is being allocated. We are giving £150,000 for research in connection with the diseases of animals of which £100,000 is given to the institution at Cambridge and £32,000 to the Royal Veterinary College. We are giving £43,500 to the National Poultry Institute, £27,000 to the Campden Fruit Preserving Factory, and £66,000 to new educational buildings at Leeds, Bangor, Swanley, Cirencester and Cambridge, and there is £80,000 given for capital expenditure on new farm institutes.
        There is a special department of this branch of our work, about which I want to speak a little more at length, that is, scholarships for education and research given to the children of agricultural workers. Those have been started within the last two years. We all know that one of the influences which tend to draw workers away from the country to the towns is the desire to give their children the better education which may be found in the urban districts. Something is being done by this scheme of scholar-

        2335
        ships for sons and daughters of agricultural labourers, and other rural workers, to remedy this trouble. The Ministry wishes particularly to acknowledge the assistance which it has received in this matter from the representatives of the agricultural labourers' organisations, Mr. Dallas, Mr. Smith and Mr. Walker, who have given us considerable help in establishing this system. I want to ask all those Members who are interested in the country boy or girl, more especially Labour Members, to make known in their constituencies the opportunities which are afforded by this scheme. They have real opportunities; greater than exist under any other public scholarship scheme.
        Of Class I scholarships, 10 will be awarded each year. They will cost the State about £1,000, and they will enable picked students to attend degree courses of University departments in agriculture and agricultural colleges for three years, with the probable extension in suitable cases to a fourth year to enable scholarship holders to engage in research or other post-graduate work. Then there will be 10 Class II scholarships, worth about $450 apiece. They will be made annually, and will cover the entire cost of residence at agricultural colleges for two years. In addition to that, about 100 Class III awards will be made to enable scholars to attend farm institute courses for six months or a year. This is the second year of the scheme, which has been approved as an experiment for five years. Whether it will be continued after that depends on whether it makes good. The underlying principle on which it is based is the belief that in the country boy or girl there is excellent educational material which hitherto has been largely untapped, and that it is well worth while trying to develop it. The first year's results have been very encouraging. Three Class I scholarship holders are at Cambridge, and three at other Universities. Ten Class II scholarship holders are at agricultural colleges, and 73 Class III are undergoing instruction at farm institutes. Speaking generally, the reports show that these students are doing remarkably well. One has carried off the gold medal at the East Anglian Institute of Agriculture at Chelmsford.
        The work of research is not confined to agriculture. It is extended also to the
        2336
        other part of the work of the Ministry, namely, fisheries. Our fishery research has cost about £13,700, including a special research vessel called the "George Bligh," which is employed in the prosecution of the deep-sea research laid down in the programme of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. That also includes a contribution to the maintenance of the laboratory at Lowestoft, and a sum for experimental work with regard to oysters at Conway. But I regret to say that the fishery outlook, taken as a whole, is not very promising. Like other industries, the fishery industry is suffering from the loss of the German and Russian markets, which took 80 per cent. of our catch of herrings. It is also suffering severely from a fall in prices, and it is suffering very severely, as Scottish Members particularly know, from foreign competition.
        The next subject with which I will deal is Land Settlement. I need not trouble the House with the history of the inception of the scheme for settling ex-service men on the land. The scheme was brought before the House a few years ago and I think it met with general approval. It was recognised from the outset that it would be a costly operation for the State, but the State felt that if men who had been serving their country abroad wished to settle on the land, it was ready to incur a certain loss to enable them to do so. As might have been expected the State has incurred a considerable loss. These men were settled on the land at a time of very high prices, and the cost of equipping the settlements was undertaken when everything was at the top price. Consequently the loss has been heavy. A certain sum was set aside to meet this expenditure. The total capital commitments now are £15,200,000. There will be some increase on this, but it is not expected that the total will exceed £16,000,000. In 1926 the holdings will be handed over to the County Councils at the then value, and the difference between that value and the original capital expenditure will be written off. The estimated loss which is likely to be incurred by that operation is £6,400,000. The loss last year was £750,000. This may be increased to £900,000, and possibly to a little more in the last year before the valuation comes. In all 18,960 men have been settled on the land.
        Mr. T. JOHNSTON: Does that include Scotland?
        Sir R. SANDERS: I do not think so. As I have said, these men were settled on the land when everything was at the highest price. That involved high expenditure not only on the part of the County Council or other authority to equip the land, but also involved high expenditure on the part of the men themselves. In addition to that, it has to be confessed that in the case of some of them their enthusiasm for agriculture was greater than their knowledge of it. They have now to bear the full brunt of the fall in prices which is affecting so adversely the whole of the agricultural industry. You hear people say that a number of these men have failed. The wonder is not that so many have failed but that so many have been able to survive. After all, the casualties have not been a very great percentage. Those who have left their holdings are only 6.5 per cent. of the whole. I think it speaks well for the thrift and grit and energy of these ex-service men that such a very high proportion of them have been able to "stick it out."
        In the same Department of the Ministry there come allotments. This year the somwhat difficult question has arisen of the transfer to local authorities as from 25th March last of the Wartime or D.O.R.A. allotments. That has been affected with the minimum possible amount of dispossession of plot holders. The Ministry has done all that it could to see that as few plot holders as possible lost their allotments on account of this arrangement. Where it has been impossible, owing to building developments, for local authorities to re-acquire the land formerly used for allotments, alternative land has in most cases been obtained by the local authorities. In the opinion of the Ministry there is no reason why the allotment system should not be further extended. At present it is impossible to give an accurate estimate of the number of allotment holders, because we are in a period of transition; but I believe I am within the mark when I say that there are 1,000,000 allotment holders in the country.
        The next matter to which I will refer is sugar beet. I am happy to say that, when all is not encouraging with regard
        2338
        to agriculture, this is one department on which I can give an encouraging report. I am informed that the present position is most encouraging. During the recent manufacturing season the Cantley factory dealt with 55,000 tons of beet. It produced over 7,000 tons of white sugar of good quality, and over 4,500 tons of dried pulp, and I am informed that for the first time the percentage of extraction was considered satisfactory. This indicates that the inevitable difficulties of establishing a novel and intricate process have been overcome so far as this factory is concerned. For the coming season a larger acreage was offered for beet cultivation than could be accepted, and this has occurred without any effort on the part of the factories. 15,000 acres have been contracted for, and that is the maximum which it is estimated that the factories at Cantley and Kelham can deal with in the coming season. Some portion of the area under contract for Cantley is affected by the Norfolk strike, but it is hoped a crop will be obtained, and arrangements are being made for an additional acreage in other districts as an insurance against shortage of supplies. The company which owns the Kelham factory is writing down its capital on the lines required by the Government. Arrangements have been made under which the two factories are working in close co-operation, and these arrange merits are working well. The farmers of the districts concerned have overcome their reluctance to grow sugar beet, and now regard it as an important and profitable crop, which, it is admitted, increases the fertility of the soil and the value of succeeding crops. The industry has already created employment for a considerable amount of labour, both on the land and in the factories. In that department, at all events, agriculture has every reason to congratulate itself.
        The next Department of the Ministry of which I wish to speak deals with one of its most important functions. That is to look after diseases of animals. The Ministry has to deal directly with foot-and-mouth disease, rabies, cattle plague, contagious pleuro-pneumonia, epizootic lymphangitis, swine fever, and sheep pox. I am glad to say that several of these diseases have not been known in this country for a considerable number of years. I am also happy to say that this year we have not had anything to compare

        2339
        with the deplorable outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease with which my predecessor had to deal 12 months ago. But there have been spasmodic outbreaks of that disease. I am sorry to say that by no amount of research—a great deal of research has been devoted to the subject —have we been able to discover how the disease gets here. There are various theories, but when the disease breaks out it is very seldom indeed that we are able to account for it. Lately there have not been many outbreaks. Since the beginning of the year they have taken place in only three counties, Gloucestershire, Derbyshire and Norfolk. The measures taken by the Ministry have stopped the disease from spreading.
        We have received the recommendations of the Committee that was presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman). A number of these recommendations do not involve legislation, and have already been put into operation. As to those which involve legislation, after what has just occurred I will not say anything. Outbreaks of sheep scab now show diminution in the country as a whole, but show an increase in Wales. The Ministry is about to issue a new Order, which I think will be approved by the farming community generally, placing upon the owner of a flock the onus of keeping it free from scab, and making him liable to certain penalties if he fails to do so. I am happy to say that the action taken by the Ministry a year or two ago has rendered rabies extinct in these islands. As to glanders, the work that has been done in the past has had remarkable effects. In 1908 there were 789 out-breaks, involving 2,433 horses. The measures of the Ministry were then started. Last year there were only four cases, and this year there has been only one case.
        The next subject is the money spent on the improvement of livestock breeding and milk recording. That amounts to £37,950. As to breeding, we subsidise bulls, boars and rams, and I believe that there is no direction in which our activities are of more value to the farming community of the country. No one regrets more than I do that on the recommendation of the Geddes Committee my predecessor was obliged to drop the grant to heavy horse stallions. The Ministry is
        2340
        parting with the management of the grants for light horse breeding, but the system does not come to an end—it is still carried on by the War Office. I have mentioned milk recording. I want to give an example of the great difference which exists between herds in their milk producing value. It shows how very useful this recording may be. Two members of the same recording society had 42 cows each. All were recorded for the full year. The average yield of the 42 cows in one herd was 9,117 lbs. In the other it was 3,812 lbs. The approximate difference in the total yield was over 21,000 gallons, which, at 1s. a gallon, makes a difference between the income of the two men of over 1,000 for the same number of cows. I am happy to say that these societies are being more and more appreciated and that the number is increasing yearly. There are now 55 societies with 4,000 members and 104,000 cows.
        5.0 P.M.
        Also connected with this same matter of the encouragement in the production of livestock there is an enterprise which I would commend to hon. Members above the Gangway opposite, because I think it is the one and only, certainly it is the most striking example of successful results in State trading. That is the breeding of racehorses. Since the presentation of the National Stud to the country in 1916 the net profit has been £28,000. Last year our stud headed the list of winning breeders. I believe we beat the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War by a short head. With 25 horses we won 42 races, and won over £32,000. We won the St. Leger, the Irish St Leger, the Liverpool Cup, the Derby Cup, and the Prince of Wales' Stake at New market, and we made a good beginning in 1923 by winning the Lincolnshire Handicap.
        Another matter which comes under the scope of the Ministry is that of the relief of unemployment by land drainage schemes. A drainage programme for the relief of unemployment was sanctioned by the Cabinet at the beginning of the winter 1921–22, and it was again resumed at, the beginning of last year. Over 596 schemes have been actually sanctioned, and they were calculated to absorb the full sum allocated by Government, namely, £450,000. It is a matter of

        2341
        general knowledge that this has been a very wet winter, and the full amount allocated has not been spent. It is doubtful if more than £250,000 out of the £450,000 will be actually expended by the 31st of May, and we propose early in May to circularise bodies which are carrying out schemes in order to obtain information as regards each scheme, and probably we will obtain an extension of a week or a fortnight in those cases where such extension is necessary to complete the scheme. Other schemes will be under consideration during the summer for presentation when winter comes to the Unemployment Committee of the Cabinet. I may say that in addition to such schemed we are also considering schemes for the working of lime and chalk as fertilizers on land.
        We have a Statistical Department of the Ministry, on which, I think, some £30,000 is spent. In connection with their activities I can give some description of the reports we get as to the general state of agriculture in the country. The fact that there is an agricultural slump is generally known throughout the country, and the reports I receive leave me in no doubt that many farmers are losing money. There have been more farmers bankrupt last year than in any year for a very long time past. Men do not go bankrupt if they can help it. There is another factor which I think is decisive to prove that the farmers are losing money. You want to be a very clever man if you can get a rebate from the Income Tax collectors unless you can really show a loss, and it is the fact that a great many farmers have been able to show that loss and have been able to use it as a set-off against other forms of income. I think that is conclusive that in certain districts of the country at all events many farmers are losing a great deal of money.
        Mr. PETO: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the number of cases in which farmers have successfully claimed rebate?
        Sir R. SANDERS: No, I cannot. The number of bankruptcies are the largest for a considerable number of years, and I have no doubt that in many parts of the country farmers are losing a good deal of money chiefly in the arable districts—Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgshire, Lincolnshire and East Anglia mainly. The reason is not very far to
        2342
        seek. It is the very great drop in the prices of the crops that these arable farmers grow. The price of wheat is only 30 per cent. greater than it was before the War as against a general increase in the price of commodities of something over 70 per cent., the reason being that the supply throughout the world is greater than the effective demand. The figures compiled by the Statistical Department of the Ministry show that the world's surplus last year over the effective demand amounted to 37,000,000 cwts. It is the fact that the producer of wheat all over the world, as far as I can learn, is losing money. The position in East Anglia may be bad, but I have here an extract from the "Bankers' Magazine" of New York, Showing the conditions in the United States of America. It was an article which appeared in February last, written by a hanker on the plight of the North-West farmer. It describes him as being in desperate straits, and his industry as drowning. In each of the grain-growing States the cost of production in 1920 and 1922 exceeded by from 50 to 100 per cent. the price which the farmer received for his grain. A survey of conditions shows that in some sections of Montana 70 per cent. of the farms have been deserted. Mortgages have been foreclosed on 37 per cent. of the farms in Montana. In 12 months there have been 328 farm bankruptcies in 90 communities in Minnesota. There have been 743 bankruptcies in 97 communities in North Dakota, 291 bankruptcies in 57 communities in South Dakota, and 182 bankruptcies in 27 communities in Montana. In 73 communities in those four States last year no fewer than 168 farmers committed suicide. That shows that the depression with regard to wheat is not confined to this country alone.
        Now we come to barley, the trice of which is only 10 per cent. above pre-War price. Barley is the main crop in just those districts where the agricultural depression is the greatest. It is true that this year the crop of barley was not good. It was spoiled by the wet. It is also true that the price has fallen on account of the decrease in demand, and the decrease in the demand is largely caused by the decrease in the consumption of beer. It may be hoped that the provisions of the Budget which have been announced may do something to help the barley grower.

        2343
        Another matter that has had a very considerable effect on the barley market is the fact that America has gone dry. Although America has prohibited the manufacture of beer and whisky, it has not prohibited the manufacture of the raw material of these two articles, which is barley, and that raw material comes over here and is supplied to our brewers. It is undoubtedly the fact that brewers in this country in some cases prefer the foreign barley, and in some cases they pay a very much higher price for it than they would pay for English barley.
        In regard to potatoes, the position is worse than in regard to barley. The price of potatoes is actually 19 per cent. below that of pre-War. There I think the drop in price is mainly owing to an extremely bountiful crop which caused a glut. Foreign imports coming in at a critical time did cause a rapid decline in price, but the foreign imports altogether only amounted to 4 per cent. of the total.
        One other arable crop I want to deal with, on which there has been a great deal of discussion, is hops. I think it is generally known that the hop market of the country is in the hands of a Controller and the control is rigid, as everything of that kind was during the War. I do not wish to go into controversial matters with regard to hops, but it is the fact that there is now a large excess balance of some half million cwts. in hand. Shortly, the reason is that the Hop Control Committee expected the consumption of beer to be very much larger than it has been in the last two years. At the present rate of beer consumption the amount of hops required is 320,000 cwts. a year. The full home crop on the present acreage is about 312,000 cwts. But the brewers insist on using foreign hops to the extent of one-sixth of their consumption, so that on this basis, including 60,000 cwts. of foreign hops, the total supply in any year is 372,000 cwts. In other words, there is a surplus every year of 50,000 cwts. of hops above the amount required to meet the present rate of consumption of beer. If the consumption of beer were increased by 50 per cent., the amount of hops required would be 480,000 cwts., but if the consumption of beer goes on at its present level then, by the time the regime of the Hop Controller comes
        2344
        to an end, the hop industry is going to be in an exceedingly difficult position. I cannot allude to legislation; all I can say is that the Government is quite aware of the circumstances, and when the control comes to an end it does mean to deal with the matter. I wish to add this on a matter about which there has been a good deal of discussion and trouble in Kent and other places where hops are grown. The Hop Controller only bought at the beginning of the year one-third of the year's crop because of the large balance left in hand which he could not dispose of. Lately the sale of hops has been very much more rapid than he expected, and consequently he is able to pay on 27th April up to 80 per cent. of the value of the past year's hops. A grower whose hops were valued at £15 per pocket will be paid a further £7 per pocket, and as he was paid £5 per pocket by the Hop Controller when his crop was taken over by the Controller, the total payment of £12 will represent 80 per cent. of the full value.
        These are the various cereal crops with which I have to deal. I am always rather sorry that when agriculture is being discussed it is the habit to speak a little disrespectfully of grass land. I come from a country of grass, and when I look out, in my own neighbourhood, I rarely see a ploughed field. So far as the farmers in that part of the country arc concerned, I think they are doing considerably better than the farmers in the arable districts. It must be remembered that this grass land is of a very high quality and is land which was let at £3 or £4 an acre, but still I think the position of the stock farmers is very much better than that of the arable farmers. According to the statistics given to us milk is up 90 per cent. above 1913, butter 71 per cent., cheese 127 per cent., fat sheep 83 per cent., store pigs 107 per cent. and so on, and it is an important fact that the complaints as to the state of the agricultural industry are not nearly so severe from the grass counties, which after all represent about two-thirds of the whole. About two-thirds of the whole farming area of this country is under grass. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame. "] Well, the complaints from the grass farms of the country are not nearly so severe as those from the other districts.
        I have tried to show the Committee, according to the information at my dis-

        2345
        posal, what is the condition of things in the agricultural industry. I only wish that I were allowed to go further and to enunciate the policy which the Government proposes to adopt, but by the Rules of Order I am not allowed to do so. I was also, unfortunately, deprived of the opportunity of making a statement on the subject last week. I am rather unfortunate in having to make what should be a comprehensive statement bit by bit. Apart from the statement already made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the statement which has been issued to the Press, there are one or two other matters on which I should like to say something. A Private Notice Question will be addressed to me to-morrow, when I hope I may be able to give a little further information, which I should like to place at the disposal of hon. Members.
        Mr. BATEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us at what date were these figures, which he has read out, made up— the figures relating to the increases in cost?
        Sir R. SANDERS: Quite recently; they are the latest figures I have.
        Captain TERRELL: Why should not the statement to which the right hon. Gentlemen refers have been circulated I Must we wait until to-morrow?
        Mr. NOEL BUXTON: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
        I move this reduction not so much on the ground that I wish to criticise the work which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture has described, but because of the administration—
        Mr. PRETYMAN: On a point of Order. Does the hon. Member move for a reduction as to some special point? If so, that will limit the Debate, and I suggest that the hon. Member might in that case defer his Amendment. If, however, he move the Amendment on general grounds, it will not alter the course of the Debate and will be quite satisfactory. It is not usual to curtail a Debate at the very outset by moving a reduction on some particular point.
        The CHAIRMAN: I understand from the hon. Member that he proposes to move a reduction of the whole Vote. That will not curtail discussion.
        Mr. N. BUXTON: My right hon. Friend will see, if he looks at the Paper, that my Amendment applies to the whole Vote, and not to any specific part of it. In discussing this matter to-day we must feet in a dilemma—as though we have come down to the House having lost the Notes of our speeches. The field covered by this Vote, however, is so vast and its interest is so great that on reflection I find we are by no means debarred from discussing innumerable topics worthy of being debated even at great length.
        The Minister of Agriculture has touched on certain subjects of very special interest to us on these benches. He alluded to the question of work which would affect the unemployment situation, in connection with drainage. We all know how important that matter will be in the coming winter, and I should only like to make one suggestion. A great many drainage schemes have been held up because of the difficulties of reconciling private interests which have to be brought together and treated as one. I trust the Minister will do his utmost to press forward schemes which are required and will not allow them to be held up, even by the great difficulty of harmonising the private interests involved.
        My right hon. Friend said a good deal about education in relation to agriculture and there be is entirely in accord with the views which we on these benches hold. We say agriculture is not a thing to be played with and that it has been treated in the past with too little seriousness. In our view, not only should farmers be encouraged by greater security of tenure, but that they should also be encouraged by more scientific methods, by research and by more facilities for education, and we only hope that the Minister will go even further than he has already gone in that direction. He alluded again to the experiments made in growing beet. We all know that farmers found it difficult to begin crops which involved new methods of handling, and I know farmers in Norfolk who continue to say that it is impossible to grow beet because when it is taken up it brings half the field with it. These difficulties have been used as arguments against beet-growing, and we were told that beet would never make a start in this country without Protection. May I point out that the eulogistic

        2347
        account which my right hon. Friend gave of the inception of beet-growing in this country disproves those theories?
        Sir R. SANDERS: It is very heavily protected.
        Mr. BUXTON: I know it is protected in a sense, but it is not directly protected, as many people wanted it to be. How much less satisfactory would its present success have been, had it been highly protected, as many people wanted? It would be a far less satisfactory proof that the industry was one which could support itself, and the industry would have lost a chance of success in the future if it had received more artificial aid.
        I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman in his administrative work to pay more attention to the work of the county agricultural committees. They have powers, which were reserved to them under the Agriculture Act, 1921, in regard to controlling farmers who permit an excess of weeds of certain kinds. We all know that in some parts of the country there is need for what I may call gingering up in regard to slack farming. A former Minister of Agriculture, now Lord Ernie, said not long ago that thousands of acres of our tillage and grass land are being comparatively wasted and that countries with a climate as severe as our own, and with much poorer soil, are producing far more from the land than we are. It was very fortunate that, despite the destruction of useful legislation by the 1921 Act, the powers in regard to weeds were retained, but the question of whether the county committees exercise those powers depends very largely upon how the Ministry treats them. If the Ministry takes them seriously asks them for reports on important questions and suggests to them the performance of certain duties, their importance is thereby increased. They can he either of very little value or of very great value, according as he treats them, and in regard to the question of weeds, I say we could do a great deal more than has been done. There is another possibility, that they should carry their powers of control a good deal further. It is a point of doubt exactly what powers of control those committees have, but I want to suggest to the Minister that he should advise the counties to use, those powers to the fullest possible
        2348
        extent. Another great authority, whom I think we all miss in this House, who used to make very valuable contributions to our agricultural Debates 12 years ago, Lord Bledisloe, said the other day:
        " Defects in the quality of British wheat, as compared with Manitoban or Indian wheat, are due to the fact that 'British farmers have for the last 30 years been growing nondescript wheats of poor quality, without sufficient consideration for what the consuming public are now demanding."
        That is just an indication of the kind of way in which county committees were useful during the War, and could be useful now if their powers were greater and if the powers they now possess were used to their fullest extent.
        There is another power—because county control is getting to be a very valuable thing in agriculture—which the counties have in regard to small holdings. My own county of Norfolk has done extremely well in regard to small holdings. Some counties have done very much less, although their councils, on the face of them, were much more radical councils than the very conservative Norfolk council, but I do not think that any counties have fully used the powers which they have of supplying smallholders with their requisites, and that is surely a matter on which they are almost certain to be guided by the advice they get from headquarters. I hope my right hon. Friend will interest himself in that matter, because in these clays of the power of combination it is a point in which smallholders are vitally interested, and I only wish that those powers may, in course of time, be extended to the supply of requisites to all farmers.
        The Minister did not say anything, think, about the work of the Ministry in regard to co-operation, but the Agricultural Organisation Society has been one of the important fruits or by-products of the Ministry of Agriculture. I myself was on the Committee of it when the grant was first obtained, in the days of Sir Thomas Elliott, and it has undoubtedly done a great deal. Could not more be done than has been done by encouraging agricultural organisation societies? When we are talking about co-operation, I would like to urge that you ought to take every opportunity of giving importance to co-operation by getting the farmers more familiar with it in connection with any matter where you could bring it in, and if you are

        2349
        going to introduce a further credit system and make loans, on which we cannot talk now, there, we should say, you should not grant facilities of that kind except through co-operative societies. There you will get your opportunity of moving the British farmers further on towards the efficiency that has been brought about by co-operation in other countries.
        We are limited to administrative matters, and one of the most important of them arises in connection with the Norfolk strike. We have debated this once or twice in the House, but we have unfortunately not seen an end of the strike. We are very often asked to say what the Labour party would do in regard to agriculture. There are two things that we should do if we were in power now. We should endeavour to settle the strike, and to put agriculture on a sound economic basis. We should regard the tradition of the Government of this country in regard to industrial disputes as a tradition that ought to be maintained, and I want to urge once again that this is a matter in which the administrative powers of the Ministry ought to be brought in. We know that, in regard to disputes, they have to be exercised in co-operation with the Ministry of Labour, but the Ministry of Labour obviously would not, could not, act without the instigation of the Ministry of Agriculture, so that I think it is relevant to point out that this dispute might have been approached under the powers of the industrial Courts Act, but that is not what we suggest. We say that it ought to be brought under the purview of the Trade Boards Act. The Trade Boards Act, as the right hon. Gentleman said the other day, may be applied, but the exact extent of its powers in regard to agriculture has not been defined. Obviously, it could in certain circumstances be applied, without a special new Act, to an agricultural dispute. Even supposing that neither of these Acts is suitable for the purpose, it still remains a matter of administration, because, as everyone knows what the farmers' unions do is settled, to an enormous extent by the opinion that is given out by the Minister of Agriculture.
        That is sufficiently obvious, but we are now faced with a situation in Norfolk in which it is known, and admitted by the Minister himself, that the wage is very
        2350
        much below the pre-War wage. He gave figures, in reply to a question of mine the other day. Everyone knows, and it is an extremely melancholy fact, that the wage is below the pre-War wage, and everyone remembers that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) about 10 years ago pointed out that the pre-War wage was something perfectly scandalous, and that it was a wage which ought to have been dealt with under the principles of the Trade Boards Act, the late Sir Charles Dilke s Act, which set out the principle of the maintenance of a standard of living by the State. That Act was too new in those days, but it is now 14 years old; and is it not fair to say that it is an established tradition of this House and of the Government of this country that we are, as a State, concerned with the maintenance of the standard of life and with the prevention of sweating?
        You have got here a trade in which wages are, by common consent, far below the standard of decent subsistence, and, therefore, I submit that if the Government simply folds its hands and says, "Let the wage be beaten down as low as the position of the labourer compels it to go," we are departing from a national tradition, and a tradition which is perhaps as well worth maintaining as any other. It surely is not for Toryism to depart from tradition, nor is it, I think, at, all welcome to the Conservative party to break its promises. We have, unfortunately seen some examples in recent times. It is a melancholy thing that the farm labourer, who had a pathetic faith in the assistance of the State brought to his mind during the War, and who got by that means a certain confidence in constitutional government, has had it shattered by the repeal of the Corn Production Act and the Agriculture Act.
        The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member, it appears to me, is really arguing for a reenactment of the Corn Production Act, but I am afraid that, under the rules of order, it would not be possible for him to proceed with that argument.
        Mr. BUXTON: I was endeavouring to argue that such power as the Ministry has should be applied to maintaining the standard, but if I am not in order in stating the condition of things which makes it urgent for the Ministry to apply

        2351
        its powers, I must pass to another side of the matter. The Minister has been talking about the condition of the industry, and it is extremely relevant to the matter of administration, in regard to the standard of life, that we should be conversant with the state of the industry. It may be said that necessity compels the reduction of a wage below a decent standard. Of course, it may be shown that there are certain light lands which would be laid to grass unless the wages were very much lower still, but I think the labourers, if they choose to say, "We will risk that on certain farms," are the people most concerned, and if they say, "We would rather risk the laying of some land to grass and maintain a standard throughout the country," they are entitled to say it. We have not got really sufficient objective evidence that farmers this winter would lay more land to grass or let land go derelict. If there be evidence, it has not been produced in a concrete form, but supposing that a certain acreage might be laid to grass this winter, though it is very difficult this season to make new plans in regard to laying down your land, but supposing that 10,000 or 20,000 acres in East Anglia —the West of England is hardly concerned at all—were to be laid to grass, what are you risking, on the other hand, by the inaction in regard to settling the strike? You are risking perhaps about 200,000 acres of barley, and that is a serious thing to set against the possible risk of a rather higher wage.
        In my judgment, on this point the farmers are taking quite a long view. They know that in all trades you make a loss sometimes, that you have a bad year and that you make up for it by a good year. They know that the market is likely to improve, and they are not, on the whole, going to lay the land to grass this winter, because they might lose the chance of a very good profit next year. There was a. curious argument in Lord Rothermere's article, a week ago, which cuts that away. He said that we must by artificial means keep up our national production to some standard which would be useful in war, because the rest of the world is not going on supplying us. He said these countries which have had bumper harvests in the last, two years, when we have had bad harvests, are becoming less exporting and will con-
        2352
        sume their own stuff, and that, therefore, we must get ready for the day when we have got to grow our own corn. That is precisely the fact that the farmer knows, and exactly the reason why he calculates on a much better price next winter. Altogether, the danger of driving land out of cultivation has been greatly exaggerated, and I do hope, at least, the Minister will institute some inquiry which will have weight with the public. I think the whole House would strongly support him in such an inquiry, which any of his great experts could make in a valuable way without a formal and legal collecting of evidence. I am quite sure Sir Daniel Hall, in a very few weeks, would make a report which would be of enormous value.
        I will only say one or two more things in regard to the labourer question. We all know it is not for the ultimate good of agriculture that the labourer should be driven clown, and seeing that the farm labourers did such colossal service, and were so invaluable to the country during the War, there is something very unpatriotic in looking on now with tranquillity while the labourer is driven to semi-starvation. There ought to be a determined effort to see that his wage is not at a distressing level. It would help the good farmer if state regulation were set up again. The trouble is, as some of the Board of Agriculture experts have pointed out, that it almost becomes the duty of a fanner to his neighbours not to pay more than they do. I think it is described somewhere as a kind of social duty which almost compels farmers to go down to the lowest rate and I know many farmers who were thankful during the War when the regulation of the wages enabled them to pay what they thought right, without being regarded as disloyal to their neighbours. Considering all these things, in our opinion, the wage is something on which the Government is bound to express an opinion, and if the strike be not settled at a very early date then I trust my right hon. Friend will reconsider his decision.
        There are many things to reply to the question as to what Labour would do. We would like to explain from these benches, but we shall have to wait for an occasion when you, Sir, would regard it in order. But, even in regard to administration, there are countless points in

        2353
        which the Minister can treat the industry either as one which has got to give way to what I may call pleasure-owning, or as one to be taken seriously, and regarded as an economic asset of vast importance to the country, instead of something which is secondary to sport. We would say that the right thing for any Minister of Agriculture to do is to treat the whole agricultural industry as one which is of vital importance.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture said as to the difficulty in which we have been put in debating agricultural matters. I also agree with him that it has had a most unfortunate effect on the whole situation in the agricultural districts, that the opinions expressed in this House, and the decisions to which the Government may come after Debate here, or after negotiation, have to come out piecemeal—here a little, there a little. No one understands exactly the drift of there. They are mixed up with Budget statements, and so on, and are overshadowed by other things. It has created a most unfortunate situation, the blame for which can be apportioned, perhaps, equally in every direction. I do not think it is for any of us to throw stones in this matter. But it has had a most unfortunate effect upon the industry. Those of us who have a very tender place in our hearts for the industry in which we are engaged regret it very much indeed, and we do hope there will very shortly be a day when we can discuss the wider issue. But I am bound to point out that when it comes it cannot be as effective. The moment has been lost. There is a proper time for everything, and the proper time for the Debate was the date appointed by this House, and that date being lost, although we may still have a Debate, it can never be as satisfactory to the industry as if it came at the proper time.
        I should like to say a word or two on one or two of the points on which the Minister touched. My right hon. Friend gave us some very interesting figures as to the small holdings which have been provided through State agency, and I listened to those figures with great interest, because I observed there was a very heavy loss, amounting, I think, to about £900,000 on some 18,000 holdings. There is nothing surprising in that, and
        2354
        I venture to say the loss ought to have been much greater, and will have to be much greater before the Government have finished. The position is simply this, that if anybody purchases and equips land for cultivation in this country, he can only do so at a very heavy loss, and he has got to recognise that fact; and if he desires to let land, he must let it at a price at which the cultivator can live. That applies equally to the State as to the private owner, and it is a well-known fact. I should like some hon. Gentlemen opposite who wish well to agriculture, but who have no practical knowledge of agricultural conditions in an agricultural district—
        Mr. J. JONES: How do you know?
        Mr. PRETYMAN: I know by the way they talk. Their one desire is to see agriculture prosperous, but when they come to make statements about agricultural conditions, it is quite obvious that, though those statements are made absolutely genuinely and in good faith, those who make them have not a personal knowledge. I have not a personal knowledge of the conditions in their industries, and a great many of them have not a personal knowledge of my industry. I wish therefore some of them would come down into an agricultural district, and we should be happy to show them the whole of the conditions. Let them see the books of an agricultural estate. They are welcome to see mine if they like, and they are welcome to go round the cottages and talk to the men and see the whole conditions for themselves. I think if that were done, it would be a great help to debates in this House. One of the things that is in my mind is this. Perhaps they do not realise, that taking the agricultural land of this country which is in private hands, it is now let at a rent which involves a dead loss to the owner on the whole of the purchase money, and a good proportion of the equipment—[An HON. MEMBER: "Then why not give it up? "]—and the State, if it buys land, must subject itself to the same conditions. Hon. Members opposite talk about State ownership. From where do the complaints come of excessive rents for small holdings? Has a single complaint reached this House of excessive rent charged for a small holding by a private owner? The whole of the complaints come from smallholders

        2355
        who are holding from public authorities out of State money. The fact is that private owners have had to cut the loss for the present, at any rate—the most serious loss they have incurred—and let their land at a figure which the cultivator can pay, although that figure only brings them in a return which does not represent even a small interest on the equipment, and nothing whatever for the purchase of the land.
        There is another point. When the State or a public authority lets a small holding, it gets the whole of the rent, but when a private owner lets a holding, he has to pay half the rent, or an immense proportion, in taxes, and therefore he is at a great disability. The State can get the whole of its rent, but as a private owner I can only get half, and the State takes the other half. The private owner to-day is an unpaid agent for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is the absolute fact. What is the position of an agricultural estate to-day? [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the pre-War position?"] I am sorry my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister is not in his place. He is not an advocate of the landlords, but this is what he said in a Debate in this House on 5th December last, speaking of the bad times in agriculture in the '80's and '90's:
        " The landlord was in a better position to assist. He could afford to give his 10 per cent., 15 or 20 per cent. remission, and what he did very often, when he did not remit, was not to press, and the remission of 25 per cent. did not always represent his contribution."
        That is the pre-War position, if my hon. Friend wants to know it.
        " On the contrary, there were rents which he absolutely forgave; that was, he never pressed for them. He is not in a position to do it now. His Income Tax then was 8d. in the £, he now pays half his income away in Income Tax. His rates are treble or quadruple what they were and I know landlords who are not getting a quarter of their income available for their own lase."—[OFFITTAL REPORT,.5th December, 1922; col. 1607, Vol. 159.]
        6.0 P.M.
        The landlord who has got a quarter of his income available for his own use is extremely fortunate, I think. Cottages on an agricultural estate with five rooms and a garden are let at 1s. 6d. a week, and the landlord has to pay rates and do all repairs, and requests come in daily for new grates, the mending of windows or
        2356
        repairs to the house. May I suggest that there is no other class of employer or owner in the country who have spent the money which landlords have in providing proper dwellings for labourers working on the land? I did not get up to talk about landlords, but, in face of the attitude of hon. Members opposite, it is necessary to say something. Many forms of social legislation now pressed for most strongly by hon. Members opposite were anticipated by country landlords. Who gave pensions when nobody else gave them? Who provided houses for widows, and allowed widows to stay in houses when no labour was coming out? Who gave them sick pay? [HON. MEMBERS: "Nobody."] All these things were done on agricultural estates which are now done by the State. I do not say universally, hut they were done, and I do say, before hon. Members opposite attack the private ownership of land, they ought to look at the matter from two points of view, into which I am afraid—
        Mr. POTTS: On a point of Order. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us in what area?
        Major MOLSON: Is that a point of Order, Mr. Chairman?
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): If the hon. Member desires to put a point of Order, of course he can do so.
        Mr. POTTS: All I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman, in view of his statement, is whether he will tell the House where the area is to which he refers. I am asking the question because I have had long experience as a member of an assessment committee and have visited farm labourers' houses and have never found one yet.
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not know that that is a point of Order. If the right hon. Gentleman who is in possession of the House chooses to give way to an hon. Member on the other side who interrupts, he may do so, and the hon. Gentleman may put his question to him, but that is not a point of Order.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: I am very glad to give way to my hon. Friend and to answer his question. I will not only tell him where one such cottage is, but I can

        2357
        show him hundreds. Also I shall be glad to invite him to come down any week-end he likes—
        Mr. POTTS: I accept that invitation; I will come down.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: And bring any of his friends with him. I should like to say one word about sugar beet. I listened with amazement to the speech of the hon. Gentleman for Norfolk, Northern (Mr. Noel Buxton), who preceded me when he cited the success of the sugar beet industry as an instance of how, where properly undertaken, cultivation can be carried out at a profit without State assistance.
        Mr. N. BUXTON: I did not say without assistance, but without the degree of assistance that it asked for.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: I do not know whether my hon. Friend realises what the assistance is—
        Mr. BUXTON: Yes.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: —but I think, if any other agricultural operation could get the assistance given to sugar beet, we would hear nothing in the House of agricultural Debates. I believe that the assistance given amounts to something like £20 per acre. I am not sure it is not more. The whole of the Sugar Duty, which, I think, the hon. Members opposite are prepared very loudly to complain of, in respect to its enormous weight [HON. MEMBERS: "Rear, hear!"] I understand hon. Members agree. The whole of that weight is taken off the growing of sugar beet. If ray hon. Friend had not referred to the matter I was about to refer to it as an instance of the great advantage which the State and the nation may gain by encouraging the cultivation within our own borders of some valuable food products which otherwise we should be entirely dependent for upon the foreigner. I cannot refer to the question of sugar beet without saying that I am sure every hon. Member who was in the last Parliament will remember the very active part which the late Sir Bevil Stanier took in this matter for years under most adverse circumstances, and also the part taken by the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) now he has succeeded him. It is the work done by men in this
        2358
        House and outside that this sugar beet industry has been set going, and to that extent the country owes them a very deep debt of gratitude.
        I come to the question of animal diseases. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman refer to that. So far as foot-and-mouth disease is concerned we are, I think, confirmed, from the investigation of the Committee, that it is practically impossible to discover the source of these primary outbreaks. The only suspicion, and the primary suspicion, attaches to the birds—that the germs of the disease are air-borne in some form or another. I think it is only right here that a tribute should be paid to the most admirable work done by the Board of Agriculture and by Sir Stewart Stockman, the chief veterinary officer of the Board, both at the time of the outbreak, when he and his staff were enormously overworked, and after. That work was absolutely untiring and certainly it was extremely intelligent. But for him it is most probable that the outbreak would have got out of hand—as it very nearly did—and the consequence to this country and to agriculture can hardly he estimated. I think the work done by the Committee has given him considerable help, and although I cannot go into legislation I think I may say that I think it is most desirable—and I can hardly think that the matter will he regarded in any part of the House as contentious—that the recommendations of our Committee which require legislation should be brought before the House at the earliest possible moment.
        I will only say one other word on the question of milk recording. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's remark that the recording is a very valuable asset. But I do want to utter one word of caution. The right hon. Gentleman gave figures in which he said there were two herds of 42 cows each. One yielded 9117 lbs., and the other 3,812 lbs.—revealed by the milk recording. It is very valuable that it should be revealed, but it must not be necessarily taken as a fact that the whole of that additional milk was profit, because milk-recording has introduced an element which is a little disturbing. It has introduced an element of record-breaking. You can almost get any quantity of milk out. of any mulch cow's udder if you pour enough in at the mouth. There are always these record

        2359
        cows producing an unlimited number of thousands of gallons of milk, and there is no doubt that the feeding of some of them is proceeded with in a very expensive way which could not be applied to ordinary herds. Therefore, although milk-recording is of extraordinary value—I do not doubt it at all—I do not think the figures of records can be regarded as if they were produced by equal treatment. Sometimes the cost of producing a very high record in a particular cow may very well exceed the actual value of the milk produced, though it may produce a return in another way by advertising the value of that particular herd.
        I should like to say, on behalf of the Agricultural Committee, our reason for existence. Everybody will agree that up to within very recent times agriculture has been a sort of Cinderella amongst industries. Agriculture has never been adequately represented in this House. One must realise that it is not only sufficient to have a case, but you must have strength behind to push it. That organisation which gives strength has only recently been developed. Without transgressing the rules of Order I may perhaps say, Captain Fitzroy, that you are largely responsible for that during the last Session. I will give an instance of what I mean. When it came to a question between the Board of Agriculture and other Departments it was always the Board of Agriculture that went to the wall. In the first place, the Minister of Agriculture is always a junior Member of the Cabinet. He is usually promoted whenever there is a change of Government or a reconstruction, and changes of Government and reconstructions have lately been very frequent. The consequence is that there are perpetual changes at the Ministry, where you always get a junior Minister, and there he is in the first place, with neither sufficient knowledge of the work of the Department nor that sufficient status on behalf of the interests of the industry that he ought to have. That is the sort of thing that goes on.
        Take the question which the Agricultural Committee have recently taken up, that of the road grant. There you have, on one hand, the Board of Agriculture protecting the agricultural ratepayer, and, on the other hand, you have the Treasury and the Minister of
        2360
        Labour interested in getting money for unemployment grants. If it were not for what had been done by the Agricultural Committee very little of that money would have been seen by the rural ratepayers. Parliament in that case voted that a certain tax was to be placed upon mechanically-propelled vehicles for the purpose of maintaining the roads. There were 113,000 miles of rural roads used by mechanically-propelled vehicles which got nothing, and, may I say, this is borne out by the present attitude of the Minister. What did the Minister say at the recent interview? He said that a grant was going to be made to the rural ratepayers of £1,250,000 from the surplus of the Road Fund. There is no surplus on the Road Fund. It is our own money. it is the money that Parliament voted for the roads and to that purpose it should be applied. The wear and tear caused by motorists on the roads should be defrayed out of the tax levied upon them. Here, then, is an instance where the Agricultural Committee has been able to exercise pressure, and a case where it has been absolutely fairly met, if I may so put it., by the Road Board and the Ministry. But we do not want to put temptation in their way. We do not want to tempt them by our own slackness and inattention to our own interests and see agriculture overridden by other interests because it is easy to do it and because lots of people press harder than we do.
        There is also the question of imported cattle. Here again it has been surely necessary that the Agricultural Committee should take an active interest in the question. We are also, I may say, grateful to the Minister for having exercised his powers and insisted upon slaughtering of the fat cattle arriving from Canada at the port, and not allowing them to be sent to inland markets, as undoubtedly they would have been if the Agricultural Committee had not moved in the matter, and the Minister taken prompt action. There is another point of administration which has come forward, and which is very important. But the Minister is going to discuss it with us before long, and, therefore, I will not go very much into it. I refer to the importation of breeding cattle from Canada. There is no demand whatever from any part of the agricultural industry of this country for the admission of these cattle. Why are they to be

        2361
        admitted, and on what ground? I know there is a Clause in the Act which enables an order to be passed. I will not debate that further now, because I think it will be more appropriate after we have had our discussion with the Minister. The only general point I would put now is this: I yield to nobody in my desire to see the Empire working together as one unit, but I do not think it is fair to British agriculture that the Dominions should give bounties on the export of agricultural products to this country when there are no countervailing duties.
        I understand that now the Australian Government are giving a bounty on meat exported from Australia to this country. I would like to ask, is that fair to the agricultural industry here. For example, would it be regarded as fair for the local authorities of one county in this country to subsidise meat going from that, county into another county which could make provision for itself? I desire to call the attention of those concerned with our Imperial policy at the Colonial Office to this matter. Although those bounties may be from an Imperial point of view a good thing, the agricultural interest cannot be entirely ignored. When it comes to a question of local expenditure we have the Minister of Health imposing local burdens upon us, and unless the Agriculture Committee and those, representing agricultural interests are vigilant., we shall have the Treasury and the Ministry of Health passing on a large portion of expenditure, to the local ratepayers, although the matters to be dealt with may he of national interest, I think the Agriculture Committee should be watchful in that respect. I welcome the announcement which has been made that there is to be a grant in relief of rates, for which we are grateful, and this will go some way to restore the balance.
        There is another matter which the Agriculture Committee has had in hand, and that is the question of railway rates on agricultural produce. The Agriculture Committee appointed a Sub-Committee to deal with this matter, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Mohan (Mr. Lambert), the Member for the Ely Division of Cambridge (Lieut.-Colonel Coates), and the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Sir N. Jodrell) were Members of that Sub-Committee, and I am sure that the agricultural
        2362
        industry is very grateful to them for the pains they took in their negotiations with the railway companies. This morning we met the Railway Managers' Committee, of which Sir Herbert. Walker is the Chairman, and we obtained from them certain concessions, which are embodied in a memorandum, which has been sent to me from the Railway Managers' Committee by Sir Herbert Walker, and, with the permission of the Committee, I will read it. This is a statement. by the railway companies of their own case, and what they are prepared to do, and I will read it in their own words:
        " The main points brought out by the railway companies at the meeting with your Committee this morning were as follows: Since the railways were handed back to them in August, 1921, progressive reductions in the charges for both goods and passenger train traffic have been made. The general effect of these has been to reduce goods train rates from 112 per cent, to 75 per cent. above pre-War level and passenger fares from 75 per cent. to 50 per cent. above pre-War. The wages bill of the railway companies is to-day about 136 per cent. above the pre-War level. Wages form about two-thirds of the total railway costs. The railways are paying on the average about 70 per cent. Mare for all materials they have to purchase. To-day the railways are generally not earning the same amount of net revenue as they did in 1913. The reductions granted in goods rates in August, 1922, and in passenger fares in January, 1923, have not resulted in an increase of traffic sufficient to counteract the loss in gross revenue due to such reductions. The companies are therefore faced with a less revenue and the cost for working the increased traffic.
        The railway companies are fully alive to the necessity of bringing their charges down to the lowest possible limit, and have shown their willingness to do so by the reductions that have already been made. They have further so framed their programme as to give the greater reduction in the goods rates to those industries which appeared to need the greater consideration. With these objects in view the companies have given further consideration to the question, and especially to the views put before them by the members of the Agricultural Committee of the House of Commons, and have decided to make the further reductions mentioned on the attached as from the 1st of May, 1923. These concessions are estimated to cost the railway companies upwards of £9,000,000. The railway companies have endeavoured to secure the co-operation of railway labour in order to make a larger reduction, but so far without success. Negotiations are proceeding, it being apparent that failing seine substantial reduction of expenditure due to high rates of wages and costly conditions of service there is little prospect of further consider-

        2363
        able changes in rates and charges. In the event of the negotiations with the railway trade unions being successful the companies will be prepared to make further reductions."
        These are the reductions, the present rate on those commodities of interest to agriculture are 75 per cent. above pre-War; grain, hay, clover and straw, hops, vegetables, agricultural machines and implements, agricultural seeds, brewers' grains, oil-cake and cattle foods, provender, live stock at head rates and at truck rates, butter, cheese, poultry, eggs and fruit, now 75 per cent. increase to be 50 per cent. This reduction is to take effect from the 1st of May. The other matters dealt with are outside agriculture, and I think the Agriculture Committee may claim that they have not only been helping agriculture, but also other industries. I had better not deal any further with this memorandum, because the other part of the statement will be published in the Press, and therefore I will confine myself to what I have said about the agricultural position and the Sub-committee will hand a full statement to the, Press for publication so that the public will get full information as to reductions which have been made in other respect.
        Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if anything has been done in regard to coal?
        Mr. PRETYMAN: No, coal is like chalk it stands where it is. The hon. Member who spoke last referred to the unfortunate strike in Norfolk. I think the less we say about that matter now the better, because I have reason to know that there is a very good prospect that the strike will be settled by the end of this week. I understand that the representatives of the Farmers' Union met the leader of the Labour party, and certain suggestions were made. My latest information is that those suggestions have been favourably received by those to whom they have been submitted in a preliminary way, and there will be a final decision upon the matter on Saturday next. The position is hopeful, and I should be very sorry to say anything that might tend to prejudice the position.
        The Minister of Agriculture mentioned the question of hops, and he said that matter would be dealt with when control
        2364
        came to an end. I am afraid that we cannot wait until control comes to an end before we know what is to be done. I know that it is a matter which involves legislation, and therefore we cannot discuss it now. I will only add one more point, and it is in regard to the suggestion that farmers, if they organise on co-operative lines, would do much better than they are doing now. In one sense I agree with that suggestion, because the more they can co-operate in marketing and production the better it will be for them. I am not quite sure, however, that co-operators always make successful farmers, and I will give one instance to show what happens when co-operative bodies, who are notoriously successful in business, and who have made a great success in buying and selling for their members, and who have by their ability and business aptitude raised up an industry of enormous magnitude and importance in this country, take on farming. I have had instances before of successful business men who in regard to farming have said, "We will try business methods," but as a rule the result has been disastrous. Here is an instance. These are facts from Lancashire which is a county where there is great intelligence and much enterprise. The conclusion in this case which has been arrived at is that farming is a family industry and not one for co-operators. I will quote from a report issued by the President of the Radcliffe and Pilkington Co-operative Society, Limited (Councillor Whitehead) which is one of the latest of these distributing societies to give up what has proved to be a most disastrous experiment:
        " In the north eastern co-operative section, 28 co-operative societies took up farming, and between them owned 51 farms. Of these, 48 already have reported losses which in some cases run into five figures. The societies are rapidly ridding themselves of their liability in these ventures. The experience of the Radcliffe Society which has recently sold off its stock and gone out of the farming business is typical.
        But the chief item complained of is the wages paid. The men on the farms were paid £3 to £3 10s. a week each as a living wage,' whereas the small dairy farms of Lancashire as usually run by the farmer. his wife, and members of his family pool everything, and take little out in the way of regular wages. The result has been that the Radcliffe Society has lost close upon £8,000 in three years, and the members have had to be content not only with a 1s.

        2365
        dividend on general purchases, but have been obliged to dip into reserves to pay this small poundage. The loss on the last half of 1922 on these farms amounted to £3,160 which swallowed up nearly the whole of the last quarter's profit on the grocery and other departments."
        The farmer has not any profit on grocery or other departments to make good his loss.
        " This general profit amounted to £3,970, but this sum set against the farming losses made it necessary to withdraw nearly £2,000 from reserve to pay the dividend of 1s. in the £. The Committee in their last Quarterly Report state: We had hoped to present a more pleasing report this quarter, but the farming operations have made this impossible, although we feel a certain amount of satisfaction in knowing that we have good sound reserves from which we can draw. We are unanimous in the opinion that farming is not an industry which co-operative societies can hope to make financially successful, and we shall make certain recommendations to you which we hope will put an end to what we regret to say has been a costly experiment.' "
        The recommendation was in the form of the following Resolution which was passed unanimously by the members:
        " That we give up the business of farming at the earliest possible date, and that the Committee be granted discretionary powers in respect to the future use of Seddons Farm. The whole of the farm stock was sold by auction on 27th February, 1923, and Seddons Farm has already been let to private farmers. The other farms will be given up as early as possible."
        I hope hon. Members who talk about the large profits which farmers have been making will consult the president of the Radcliffe Co-operative Society of Lancashire. I believe that of all the industries in the country farming is the one that can best be carried on by private enterprise, and that it cannot be carried on successfully under State control. The conditions are so various and difficult that if the Minister of Agriculture interferes with the industry he can only do it on the principle of averages. To attempt to rule individual farmers by averages, by flat rates, by Government control, is absolutely destructive of progress, and will bring the industry to the ground, and as long as I have the right to speak for it in any shape or form I shall oppose any such attempt to the best of my ability.
        Mr. LAMBERT: It was not, I think, to be expected that the Government would be able to discuss the Interim Report of
        2366
        the Economists' Committee on a Supply day. It would be wholly contrary to the traditional Rules of the House, and, personally, I shall be very glad if the Government will give us an opportunity of discussing that Report, and will tell us what their policy is; for I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) that this giving out of the policy of the Government piecemeal in little bits is all to the bad. My hon. Friends of the Labour party seem to me to be very coveted guests. They are going to visit my right hon. Friend opposite.
        Mr. J. JONES: We know it before we go.
        Mr. LAMBERT: They are going down to see him. I was going to suggest that this national stud to which my right hon. Friend referred—I do not know where it is located at the present moment, but I see it has lost a little money—I was going to suggest that half of it should be taken, say, to Chequers, and half to Easton, which, I think, is the new home of the Labour party, so that both the Government and the Opposition would be able to enjoy themselves in sport.
        Mr. JONES: Colney Hatch!
        Mr. LAMBERT: If my hon. Friend goes there, I do not object. My right hon. Friend told us that barley prices were only 10 per cent. above the pre-War level, but I notice that the brewers have been making nearly double profits. It has always been said that if you reduce the Beer Duty it will benefit agriculture, but I do not know; that has not been the experience up to now. I am, however, grateful to the Government, as a West of England Member, that they have repealed the Cider Duty. My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Noel Buxton) asked that the Minister should instigate the county agricultural committees to exercise more control over farming. I hope he will do no such thing. I have the strongest objection to county agricultural committees; I would abolish them to-morrow, for they are really of no good. In fact, I detest committees and officials of every sort interfering with me. I do not. understand why it is that Members seem to be able to teach farmers their business. The agriculturists of the country, after all, produce, on an average, 31 bushels of wheat to the acre in this not

        2367
        entirely favourable climate. That is not rivalled in any other country in the world. If you want the best stock—horses, cattle, sheep or pigs—you come to these islands for it. That, surely, does not show that the farmers do not know their business. I agreed with my hon. Friend a good deal more when he talked about the low wages in Norfolk. I can assure him that the agricultural labourers in Norfolk have the sympathy of all agriculturists—farmers and labourers—in Devonshire and the West of England generally. All I can say is that, if the men can only be paid 25s. a week, that land will go out of cultivation. The men will not stay; it is not a living wage.
        Mr. ROYCE: What is the wage in Devonshire?
        Mr. LAMBERT: Thirty shillings a week. That is the fixed rate; of course, many of us pay more. I should like to ask when the Minister proposes to publish the Report of the Committee presided over by Lord Linlithgow, which is going into the question of the difference between the price that the producer gets and the price the consumer has to pay. I want to see that Report very much, because it is very important. My right hon. Friend gave some figures the other day which I would commend to my hon. Friends on these benches. The farmer, at present prices, gets, for the wheat: in a 4-lb. loaf, 5½d., and that 4-lb. loaf of bread is sold for anything from 8d. to 8½d. Somebody is getting some profit. and I shall welcome that Report to show where those profits are and who are getting them. I quite understand that a large amount is due to the extra rates and taxes that. have been placed, not only upon the agricultural industry, but upon all industries during the past few years. The miller gets the wheat, and he says, "I am not in business for my health, and I have to put all the rates and taxes and extra railway charges and everything else on to the flour." The, baker says exactly the same, and puts it on the loaf, and I verily believe to-day that the consumers do not realise that they are paying on each loaf of bread something like 1½d. to 2d. in extra internal taxation. [Interruption.] Perhaps my hon. Friend will support-me in preaching economy? You cannot get economy if you have Committees and
        2368
        bureaucratic control. I am a friend of the consumer. I congratulate the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the proposal to reduce the rateable value of agricultural land to one-fourth. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is that fair.? "] I am not afraid to meet my hon. Friends upon that point. I will give, them an example now from my own part of the world. The Okehampton Union, in Devonshire, have to maintain 350 miles of road, and only upon 20 miles of it do they get any subsidy from the Road Board.
        Mr. JONES: What about us?
        Mr LAMBERT: You go over the road and do not pay. I would ask my right hon. Friend to point out to the Road Board, or to someone, that these unions must, really he relieved from the care of these roads, or the roads will not be kept up at all. There is no way out of it the agricultural ratepayers cannot afford to pay for these roads. This small union has 350 miles of costly roads to keep up. They have very soft foundations, motors go over them and cut them to pieces, and they will not be kept up. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend will keep the Road Board up to the mark in that matter. An hon. Member mentions the Motor Tax, but we cannot bear the taxation, and my hon. Friend must really realise that, if a farmer has to pay more in rates, he has not that amount of money to pay for labour. If he pays Jess in rates he has more for local labour. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will carry out his policy of reducing the rates on agricultural land.
        Agriculture is an industry which is open to the competition of the world. There are some industries that are not. The agriculturists, both farmers and labourers, are sweated by the other industries which are not competitive. My right hon. Friend has read out the con cessions that the railway companies propose to give. I attended the meeting with him this morning. The railway companies are monopolists; there is no foreign competition with them. There is no question of the foreigner coming over here and. competing with the railways in carrying produce. I must say that the railway managers whom we met at the interview thin morning were most courteous and skilled men, hut I can-

        2369
        didly confess that I was disappointed at, the amount of relief they proposed to give to us in carrying agricultural produce. I said so there, and I say so here. I believe the reduction could have been more. The railway companies, it seems to me, are playing for safety. They have not made a big bid for business. After all is said and done, when the railway companies have increased their dividends over and above the 1913 level, which was the peak year, by £3,700,000, and when they have increased their reserve funds from £20,700,000 in 1913 to £l30,000,000 last year, they have some money to play with, and I say to the railway companies that I am sorry that they did not take our advice in a greater degree. They could give a greater relief to agricultural produce, and in giving that relief they would indirectly decrease the price of food to consumers in the towns. The wealth is there, and I wish the railway companies and their managers had taken a bolder view of the necessity for helping us in the agricultural districts.
        There is another matter which affects us, in regard to which, again, we are hit, and that is by the unintentional action of the Government. It is well known that owners of land to-day are not in a position at all to keep up the equipment of their farms and their buildings and cottages as they were before the War. They are crushed down by taxation. But, even if we were not crushed by taxation, we could not build, because building charges are so high. That is another industry which is not competitive. There is no foreign competition with the building industry in bricks or any of the things required for maintaining the equipment of our holdings or for building new ones. This is an indirect effect of the Government subsidy for housing, and it affects us as agriculturists. I was told to-day by an experienced builder that he had been building cottages for £350 a piece, but, directly the £6 subsidy was announced, up went the prices of the ring, and now he said it would cost him anything from £70 to £80 more. That is all very well for municipalities, who may come upon the ratepayers, but for us who have to pay the money out of our own pockets it makes building prohibitive. I assure the Government that that is one of the results of the subsidy policy.
        2370
        I suggest to my right hon. Friend one administrative act more. I ask him to impress upon the Postmaster-General the necessity for sending small agricultural parcels by post. I am sure it would be a good thing from the point of view of the producer and the consumer. I want to put them in touch with the large centres of population. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do that. I know a farmer in Devonshire, one of the most successful men there, who started when the parcels post first established by sending pounds of Devonshire cream to consumers in the towns. The right hon. Gentleman would do a wise thing if he invoked the aid of the Postmaster-General in giving increased postal facilities for agricultural produce. I understand my hon. Friends on this side of the House are very much in favour of Wages Boards and control. I want to see agriculture so that there shall be two jobs for one man. That is the best kind of Wages Board you can have. If there are two men looking for one job, wages will go down and unemployment will go up. We want to get conditions whereby the farmer can profitably employ labour in getting a good living for himself.
        Mr. SHEPPERSON: I think I am entitled, according to the traditions of this House, to crave the indulgence of its Members for one who faces the ordeal of addressing them for the first time. It may be said I have taken some considerable time in accumulating the necessary courage to face that task. That may be so, but my time has not been wasted during the past six months. I have learned the lesson that it is useful for an hon. Member speaking in this House to understand something of his subject. Having learned that lesson, I should not be here except for this fact, that the one dominating interest of the whole of my life has been agriculture. At the university I studied both it and its applied science as deeply as possible, and took the highest diplomas upon the scientific and theoretical side of the industry, and since that time I have been practically engaged in it and have endeavoured to the best of my ability to apply to that practice every possible scientific process. I am here to-day because the industry to which I have given my life's work is down, and I want to do my utmost before it is quite down and out. I am in a, difficult situa-

        2371
        tion this evening, because the Debate is limited. I want to crave the indulgence of the House in this. If I disobey any of the rules I want to be called to order immediately.
        The distressed position of agriculture, I am certain, has the sympathy of hon. Members opposite as much as of hon. Members on this side. I have been struck by the manner in which hon. Members opposite have recognised the distress that has come upon the industry, and I am confident that they are genuinely desirous of finding a solution. An hon. Member opposite, speaking upon the Empire Settlement Bill before Easter, intimated that it would be better for the present Government to spend £150 per man in settling men on the land in this country, instead of sending them abroad to our Dominions overseas. I should like to point out what is the position of the man you are going to settle in this country for £150. Does the hon. Member realise that £150 would only capitalise the occupation of some 15 acres of land, and such is the position of agriculture to-day that there is not a man who with 15 acres of land could obtain a sum equivalent to the dole that is being given to the unemployed? Do hon. Members realise that there are hundreds and thousands of smallholders, ex-service men and others, who have invested, not only £150, but the whole of their savings in small holdings who are to-day faced, owing to agricultural depression, with absolute ruin? Together with hon. Members opposite, I desire to do my utmost to make it possible that both small and large holders shall be able to live upon the land.
        The same hon. Member also said in the same speech that in his opinion it would be possible, if the land was properly cultivated, that it should feed more than the numbers of people who are at present living here. Though I should like to agree that that is possible, I submit that under no scheme of intensified cultivation could the land of England possibly feed more than about half the people living in it. I will agree with the hon. Member, however, in this, that it would be possible for us to feed more than we do at present. The law, of which we heard yesterday from the Chancellor of Exchequer, of diminishing returns definitely applies, and to obtain from the land another 1,000,000 quarters of wheat will
        2372
        cost far more than the preceding 1,000,000. Do hon. Members realise that? To increase the supplies of the country you have to increase the amount of arable agriculture. If you are going to increase the land under wheat, and to increase the yield of that land, it will necessitate very costly cultivation.
        We desire on both sides of the House to see the land growing the greatest possible quantity of food so that we are less dependent upon foreign supplies, and we also want to see the land capable of providing a living for all those who live in the country districts. But, however much we desire this, we have to face the facts, and in the facts of to-day it is impossible. The arable land of the country is being put back to grass. There will he therefore more and more unemployment in country districts, because it is arable land that employs the labour. Grass land will only employ something like 10s. in labour, against arable land from £2 10s. up to £4 and £5. Hon. Members on both sides desire to see agricultural prosperity return, and we are asking ourselves, is it possible? Certain matters which I am not permitted to refer to are to be brought before the House—credit facilities, the rating question, railway rates. I do not underrate these measures for a moment and their importance to agriculture, but will they be enough? Are they not mere palliatives? Will they be enough to meet the distress which has overcome the industry?
        I do not want to be considered a pessimist, but I rather suggest that the condition which has overcome agriculture is abnormal, and it is necessary that we should seek, at any rate temporarily, for some abnormal remedy. Very often, when abnormal or drastic remedies are suggested for agriculture, it is considered that we are referring either to Protection or to subsidies. I am not allowed to touch on those matters, but I should like to remind the Committee of the reply the Prime Minister gave to a deputation representing farmers: "It may be considered that only two matters go to the root of the question—Protection and subsidies—and to-day they are impossible. The country is not ready for them." Therefore, these two things are not practical politics to-day. I have said that hon. Members opposite are equally anxious for a remedy with ourselves, and I think they have a remedy, and I should

        2373
        say their remedy is nationalisation of the land. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) has referred to the fact that the landowners are getting practically no rent at all for the land as land. What they are receiving is only a very poor rate of interest for the buildings and equipment. If the State took the land as bare land, without any compensation to the owners, it could not let. it to tenants and equip it with buildings at a rent which many tenants are at present paying.
        7.0 P.M.
        I recognise that hon. Members opposite would suggest that the nationalisation of land was a remedy, but I am not going to enter into the merits or demerits of that I am simply going, if I may, to give the same reply to them that the Prime Minister has given to those who suggest protection or subsidy as a remedy. My reply would be that to-day nationalisation of the land is impossible. The country is not ready for it, and therefore it is not, at present, practical politics. There may be hon. Members on this side of the, Committee who hold that subsidy or protection is the only great remedy. There may he hon. Members on the other side who hold that nationalisation of the land is the only remedy. The position is that both these remedies to-day are not within the bounds of practical politics. That being the case, are we on this side of the Committee going to say that, because these great things, subsidies and protection, are not possible, we can do nothing? Similarly, are hon. Members on the other side going to say that, because nationalisation is not possible, they can do nothing If that be the attitude which this Committee is going to take up towards agriculture, then, long before either of those great remedies can be applied, the industry will most certainly be down and out. I suggest that that is not the attitude hon. Members are going to take. The Prime Minister, replying to that deputation, used these words:
        " If you had practical proposals en a smaller scale to put before me, I would consider them."
        That is the appeal I make to the Committee to-night. Can we not give a response to that request of the Prime Minister, and put to the Government practical proposals on a smaller scale that will assist the industry to-day?
        2374
        If we are going to help the industry it will be necessary for us to explore every possible avenue. There are means by which we can assist the industry, if we will only carry on that exploration. One avenue that will assist, and upon which we have started, is that of the control or regulation of imports when there is a surplus in this country. We have started upon that road in reference to hops. Control of hops has kept, and will, if it be continued, keep in cultivation some 30,000 acres of hop gardens, each acre employing from to £100 in labour. That is a sum up to £3,000,000 a year in labour. That is what the control or regulation of imports has done in regard to hops. Could not that principle, which has acted so satisfactorily with regard to hops, be applied to the other main ingredient used in beer-making, that of barley? I must not enter upon that, but I suggest that it would be better for the consumers of beer to brew their beer manufactured from English barley. That might be, possible by extending the control.
        There is distress to-day in Norfolk. What is the great cause of that distress? The fact is, the farmers in Norfolk are unable to pay their labourers an adequate living wage., because they cannot sell their barley—barley is the chief crop of Norfolk—at a price which will enable them to pay the wages which they ought. I believe that a few days ago a large brewing or malting concern had something like 1,000 tons of Austrian barley coming into this country. I suggest, with regard to Austrian barley, that, considering the position in Norfolk—though we are anxious to help Austria—our principle should be that charity should begin at home. There is another avenue along which we might continue our exploration, in order to help agriculture, and it has been started upon. I refer to the question of lifting the excise duty from goods manufactured from materials grown in this country. The avenue along which we have started has been that of the sugar beet. industry, which has recently been started. I do not know whether the Committee is familiar with the sugar beet. Sugar beet grows very similarly to a mangold, and I would point out to hon. Members above the Gangway on the other side of the Committee that the labour employed on one acre of sugar beet

        2375
        amounts to somewhere from £8 to £10 per acre. I ask them to compare that with 10s. per acre on grass, and £2 10s, per acre on wheat.
        Sugar-beet growing is a typical example of intensive arable agriculture. It is of great value to the farmer, because it is the very best preparation he can have for following wheat and other cereal crops. I think hon. Members opposite, above the Gangway, will agree with me when I say that Germany—they will not despise Germany's agricultural operations—dates the initiation of her agricultural progress from the sugar-beet growing which was developed in that country. Sugar-beet is of great value to her farmers as a preparation for succeeding crops. It is of value to her labourers, as creating a demand for labour, and the scope of the industry is enormous. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, yesterday, referred to the fact that there were 75 lbs. —I think that was the figure—of sugar consumed per person in this country. The total amount of sugar consumed by the people of this country is 2,000,000 tons per year. An acre under sugar-beet, producing 12 tons of sugar-beet, with an extraction of 13 per cent. of sugar, would yield one-and-a-half tons of actual sugar. With a consumption of 2,000,000 tons of sugar, that would mean that for this country to provide for its total consumption of sugar, there would have to be 1,300,000 acres of land under sugar-beet. That would be a totally impossible acreage, because the necessary land would not be available. I would point out to the Committee that the scope of the industry is enormous. What is it that stands in the way? We have to-day two factories, one at Kelham and one at Cantley. They were started a few years ago, but their activities were hindered very much by the excise duty of something, in round figures, like £20 a ton that was put. upon sugar manufacture in this country. Undoubtedly, last year, those two factories would have stopped, and the new industry would have been wiped out, but for the action the late Government took in removing the whole of the excise duty from home-grown sugar.
        Owing to that action of the late Government, which remission of the duty the present Government is continuing, there is nothing standing in the way of the future progress of the sugar-beet
        2376
        industry in this country. There are two factories now. If sugar-beet growing is to take its proper place in a, system of arable agriculture to-day, instead of two factories, we want, in two years, 20 factories in this country. There is nothing standing in the way of those 20 factories being built except the want of knowledge as to what the future will be. The present Government will continue to remit the excise duty on home-grown sugar, but what will the next Government do? It is the uncertainty of knowing what the next Government will do that is the only thing which prevents to-day the rapid extension of the sugar-beet industry in this country. I know hon. Members opposite are anxious, in the interests of agriculture, to see this land of ours absorb more men in employment upon it. In regard to this question of sugar-beet, they can help. In what way can they do so? This Government will not put an excise duty on home-grown sugar-been. If the Labour party wish to help will they give an undertaking that the present Government shall remain in power for the next ten years? If they cannot give that undertaking, will they, through their leader, give an undertaking that when they come into power they will not put a tax on home-grown sugar?
        I have referred to the avenue of reducing the Excise duty on home-grown sugar, and I have put these proposals before the Committee as matters that can be immediately settled. Those avenues may or may not be practicable, but I appeal to the Committee, and particularly to hon. Members opposite. This old industry of ours—agriculture—is in a bad way. If we are going to approach agriculture simply as a Government and as an Opposition, it will continue equally to be in a bad way. I appeal to hon. Members on this side of the Committee, and to hon. Members on the other side, to come forward with their own practical proposals on a smaller scale, with constructive proposals. I appeal to them to lay them, not before this Committee, but before the Agriculture Committee. If hon. Members will do that, and will criticise—but let their criticism be constructive—then let us put our backs into it, to see if we cannot help this great industry of agriculture. If we do that, I am perfectly certain we shall find a remedy, and find, equally, that it will succeed. I must

        2377
        apologise to the Committee for keeping them so long, but the apology I make must be the deep interest I take in this matter.
        Mr. ROYCE: I should like to compliment the hon. Member on his able maiden speech. We know that he is an agriculturist and that he thoroughly understands the subject. We know also that he was very modest when he wanted to claim the adherence of the Labour party to the policy which the Government is pursuing at the present time. I am quite sure that he will be unsuccessful in his efforts in that direction. We are interested in the progress of agriculture, and I agree with him that agriculture as far as possible ought to be removed from the sphere of party politics. It ought not to be a bone of contention, on either the Government side or the Opposition side, as to what is best and what suits the country best. The question should be, what suits the interests of agriculture and the interests of the country best That is the policy which ought to be pursued in regard to this, the greatest of our industries. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) is not present, because he said he did not believe in Wages Boards. We do. If he has the interests of agriculture at heart, he must have been struck with the condition of the agricultural labourer in pre-War days and the condition of the agricultural labourer during the War when he had a Wages Board; not that his wages were more than a fair subsistence wage at that time, but a fair existence wage was something he had not been accustomed to.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: I know that the hon. Member does not wish anything to go forth that is not correct. He must know that when the Wages Board was first started it did not find it necessary to raise the wages from the figure at which they then stood. The farmers had themselves raised the wages up to a point which was accepted by the Wages Board, and it was only after the Board had been in existence some time, and when prices had further risen, that they raised wages.
        Mr. ROYCE: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right, but circumstances were abnormal, and in the second year of the War the agricultural labourers were working in my parish for 18s. a week.
        2378
        So far as the agricultural labourer is concerned in England—I am not sure whether the same conditions obtain in Scotland—he has hitherto not shown himself capable of elevating himself from the morass of low wages in which he has been submerged for generations. Therefore it is necessary that there should be something in the nature of a board to control wages. It has been said that any word from the Minister of Agriculture would greatly influence the farmers. I do not believe that he has any influence upon the farmers. I do not believe that his Ministry has much influence upon the farmers. I had hoped that we were entering upon a new era, as far as agriculture was concerned, under the right hon. Gentleman, but the sins of his predecessors have left him an heritage that is not altogether enviable. I think he has tackled the matter with a good deal of courage, but I am not sure whether he has tackled it with any great resultant success. At any rate, it is not because he has not been anxious to do so.
        The right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) referred to the question of the Land Settlement Act, and the settlement of ex-service men upon the land. He made one remark with which I am in perfect accord when he said that the £6,000,000—he only mentioned one year's loss, £900,000—of anticipated loss on the settlement of the ex-service man ought to be very much exceeded. We ought to lose very much more than £6,000,000 if we are going to do a moderate degree of justice to the men and give them an opportunity to make a livelihood. The costs in settling the men on the land are costs which at any time would be heavy. They are costs which, so far as their equipment is concerned, are in excess of anything that could be regarded as an economic proposal in regard to the area of land they have to cultivate. At the time when the costs were incurred prices were at the highest peak, and the costs were enormous, and to attempt to get anything like a reasonable return is quite out of the question. These men were put on the land, and certain promises were made to them, and I ask the Minister whether, notwithstanding the concession he has made, and notwithstanding that some satisfaction has been expressed by the ex-service men in my constituency with the action of the

        2379
        Ministry, he will go further if he intends to make this settlement a success.
        I should like to make special reference to the men who are settled on the Crown Colony at Holbeach Marsh, which was one of the first adventures in that direction initiated by the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Sir R. Winfrey) to whom I desire to pay a very high tribute, because he has worked most earnestly. These men, taking the average of the whole colony, are paying rent of £4 an acre. They have received considerable concessions, and they are attempting to farm in an intensive manner and have expressed their appreciation of the work of the Ministry; but in my opinion the Ministry have not gone far enough. The rent that was paid by the previous owners of that land was not much more than 30s. an acre. These ex-service men, in addition to their rent, presumably have to pay ordinary rates and taxes. This is a hopeless proposition, to take one season with another. One hon. Member stated that these ex-service men have lost all their money, which in many cases was earned in the stress and terror of war. They brought the money back and put it into land, induced by promises held out to them that it would be made worth their while, and that the men who desired land should have it and should be put in a position to make a decent livelihood. Having spent their money, and having drawn upon their friends as much as they could, they have no capital left.
        Could not the Minister bring about a reduction in the rents? The time is not far distant when, according to the Land Settlement Act, the land will have to be taken over, presumably by the County Council, and it is just as well that the right hon. Gentleman should cut his losses now rather than have a battle with the county councils in one or two years' time. The country is quite prepared to accept losses in connection with this land settlement. They know that loss is inevitable, and I do implore the Minister not to continue impossible rents and charge them to men who cannot pay them, and thereby ruin them, whereas, if the matter were carefully handled, the whole thing could be made a success. A good many of the weakly ones have been weeded out. and those who remain are very earnest in their efforts. With a, little
        2380
        consideration, which I am sure the country would accept, the right hon. Gentleman could insure the success of these men and their undertaking.
        I should also like to call attention to the position of the tenants on the Guy's Hospital Estate, which the Ministry purchased at Sutton Bridge. That land is almost identical with the land at Holbeach, but the rents are very much higher. Some of the rents on the small areas run to something like £8 an acre, including houses. That is a rent which is utterly impossible to be paid by a tenant on so small an area. The Minister may say: "If these houses were vacant there would be lots of applicants for them." I agree, but the urgency of the demand for houses would make the applications necessary and not because the people think they could get a living off the land. The Minister may say: "The people who are already there make demands for more land." That is true, but they make the demands for more land because with a larger area they will be able to make both ends meet. This is a case for serious consideration, and if the right hon. Gentleman will give personal attention to this matter I trust he will be able to make the rents permanent at something approximating to an economic level. Perhaps he will say that this is an exceptional period in the history of agriculture, and that it is impossible to do what I ask, because things are so unstable. I would ask him to consider the effect on the minds of these men when they consider the enormous rents they are called upon to pay.
        Some of the men who have developed more than the ordinary bucolic business ability have branched out in other directions, and, notwithstanding the fact that they cultivate their land excellently, they are in the position to take the initial steps towards becoming the owner of the land. They want to become the owner. Will the right hon. Gentleman try to apply the provisions of the Land Settlement Act in regard to the purchase of this Crown land, the same as is done in regard to county council holdings? That is worth consideration. In connection with one estate which the Ministry holds, it is held under a lease and they cannot sell it; but if the right hon. Gentleman wants to do these men a good turn and to try and carry out the Conservative principle of

        2381
        land ownership, he ought to buy the land and let the men purchase it in return. Some of the men want to own the land, and they ought not to be faced with a disadvantage compared with men who have been settled by the county councils.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: You have forgotten the policy of your party.
        Mr. ROYCE: My hon. Friends opposite are individualists. They believe that farming is something in the nature of hereditary principle, and that unless a man's father has been a farmer before him, the son cannot possibly become one. I am not despising the knowledge acquired by long years of experience, but I have had something to do with taking over hereditary tenants, and I have not found that they were the best farmers.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: What was in our mind was that my hon. Friend in pressing that the land should become owned by these people is forgetting the policy of his party, which is that all land should be the property of the nation.
        Mr. ROYCE: I am not forgetting it. I am carrying your own principles into effect. I have no doubt, whatever happens, that when our party come into power they will know how to administer the land as well as the rest of the business. Whenever you get into difficulty you have to be continually coming to them to get you out. I do not think that they will do worse, if they have the heavier responsibilities placed on their shoulders, than the present Ministry, and when I say that that is paying them no compliment. But my Friends are thinking of the individual and his relation to the business of agriculture. I will draw attention to the position of the market for potatoes, a thing of which my constituents know something. There you have an illustration of the utter incapacity of the individual to deal with the situation. You have the Farmers' Union. They are organised politically. They know a great deal of politics, though they go generally a stupid way to carry their ideas into effect, so far as their own interests are concerned, as for instance when they joined with hon. Members opposite in repealing Part I of the Agriculture Act.
        Potatoes provide an illustration of their incapacity. Some 36,000 tons represented the Dutch effort to send us
        2382
        potatoes. if licences would have the effect of keeping these potatoes back a bit with the result that the early potato growers would get the advantage of the early market, I do not know that I should have any particular objection; but see what happened. These 36,000 tons of potatoes representing 2 per cent., I think, of the whole of the production—[HON. MEMBERS: "Four per cent.!"]—I doubt that, but take it at 4 per cent.—knocked the bottom out of the market. These. people had a good yield and they all tumbled over each other to get into the market and further depressed it. When it showed some signs of rising they tumbled over each other again and kept it down. That shows the effect of individual action. We have moved a Vote for reduction of the salary of the Minister, because it was the duty of the Minister to prescribe immediately for these things. Instead of sending out useless pamphlets, which nobody reads—it is like sending ginger beer bottles to the benighted West Inches—let him send something useful, and be careful of the-district to which he sends it. Then it will be appreciated, but it is not conducting the business of agriculture.—
        Sir R. SANDERS: Do you want Government funds to be used for the formation of a potato ring?
        Mr. ROYCE: No, but they should be used to pay your Department to be at the service of agriculture, instead of sitting down and taking all the disadvantage that is shot upon agriculture from various directions, for instance, the imposition of the heavy railway rates. I want the Minister of Agriculture to stand up for the agriculturists in this matter, and to say, "We are going to use all our influence to break down this monopoly." If the Minister had grappled with this matter in time we need not have asked these interminable questions in the House of Commons with regard to this subject. I am delighted that the Ministry has now come to the rescue of agriculture, and has appointed a Committee, and that my right hon. Friend has been able to convey the very pleasing intelligence this afternoon, for which all who are concerned in this matter are grateful, that the railway companies have promised a reduction.
        A word as to sugar beet. When the Minister advances any more Government

        2383
        money for the establishment of sugar beet factories, he should take the trouble to ascertain where sugar beet can be grown to the greatest advantage. I think that he will find that it is not very far from my constituency. We have taken prizes for two years in succession—the only prizes that have been offered—and that ought to silence any opposition in this respect. My hon. Friend was good enough to say that he can produce some 12 tons of sugar beet to the acre. I think that we can produce something like 18. To put a factory at Kelham was an excellent thing, but when you have got to cart the beet from Lincolnshire to Kelham it is a different proposition, and adds considerably to the cost of production of sugar. It reminds me very much of an undertaking which was carried out in South Africa in 'my early days there. They built a big dam at enormous cost for irrigation purposes. When they got it finished they found that the land was no good for cultivation. It is just as well to build sugar beet factories where sugar beet has been grown. We used to export it, it is true not in large quantities, to Holland in pre-War days, so that we can grow sugar beet. At any rate, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, if he has any idea in future of subsidising sugar beet companies, will consider the claims of the area where you can grow sugar beet.
        There are many more subjects with which I could deal, but I am sure that the Committee is tired of me. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] But I would commend especially to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman this question of ex-service men. Let him take the question boldly in hand and put the men in an economic position in which they can reasonably expect to get a living. The country will meet the loss. It is something to which the country was committed by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. You can always blame him. As he is not here, it would be ungenerous to say anything, but I think that he deserves it. I only ask justice for these ex-service men, not only in my district but throughout the whole length and breadth of the land, for they are men who have deserved well of their country.
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think, from a remark which he made, that the
        2384
        hon. Member assumes that a reduction of this Vote has been moved.
        Mr. ROYCE: I do.
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I might remind the Committee that there is a Motion on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Norfolk (Mr. N. Buxton), but that he failed to move it.
        Mr. N. BUXTON: I did move it.
        The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman apparently did not understand that that was done, but if the hon. Member wishes to move a reduction, let him do so now.
        Mr. BUXTON: I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £100.
        Sir RICHARD WINFREY: I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture on the general statement which he has been able to make on these Estimates. I desire to emphasise what has been said by the hon. Member for the Spalding Division (Mr. Royce) with regard to land settlement. I have been waiting patiently, and I have asked questions at different times, to learn when we are to have the Report of the Small Holdings Commission on the working of the land settlement scheme generally throughout the country. It is very much overdue, and it is very difficult for us to discuss details in this House until we hays the Report before us. I join in the appeal of the hon. Member for the Spalding Division to the Minister of Agriculture to face the position at once, and to put these men on a more reasonable rental basis than that on which they are at present. It has got to be done sooner or later, and it is much better to do it now than to put it off for another year. I know that certain reductions have been made, but they have been done in a rather haphazard fashion. There has been no settled policy. The time has come when we ought to hold out a helping hand to these men. Otherwise we are going to have a good many of them in the Bankruptcy Court before long.
        My hon. Friend referred to the smallholdings colony at Holbeach. During the time I was at the Ministry I was responsible for leasing 1,000 acres of Crown land, very excellent land, at Holbeach, and placed, I think, 100 men upon it. We built a large number of houses, I think

        2385
        80 or 90, and took over the farmhouses and divided them up, and there are now 100 ex-service men each with 10 acres of land. That was in 1918: We settled them before the War was over. At that time prices for agricultural produce were high. They were getting from £10 to £12 per ton for potatoes, 90s. for wheat and so on. The rentals fixed then were £40 per holding. It worked out at 50s. an acre for the land, £10 for the house, and £5 for the buildings. It was not an excessive rental then, but it is an excessive rental to-day. My hon. Friend is right when he says that 50s. an acre for that land is twice the rental which the previous tenants were paying. I know that the three or four farmers who were turned out of those farms for these ex-service men—and the Office of Woods and Forests of which the Minister of Agriculture is head by virtue of his office knows it—were not paying more than 25s. an acre for that land. It was properly equipped for them, and the least we can do is to put those ex-service men on as good a basis as the Crown tenants were in pre-War days.
        With regard to the other estate which has been mentioned, there is no doubt that the Board of Agriculture made a very bad bargain. They did it at a time when land was at its highest price. They had to deal with an agent who was much too astute for the officials of the Board of Agriculture. They agreed to pay a purchase price which is spread over a terms of years, and it is to increase as time goes on. I know the estate very well; I was born very near to it. It is excellent land, but it will not stand a rental of £4 an acre; of that I am quite certain. We are taking the heart out of these men at the present time. It is the same in my own constituency. It used to be a pleasure to go round my constituency, to talk to these smallholders, and to see how they were getting on. They were a smiling and happy race of men. But to-day they are all grumbling, and some of them are nearly heartbroken because they are losing money "hands down." The ex-service men had to go on this land when implements, horses, and everything were at the highest cost. What they purchased for £100 is to-day not worth £50.
        Surely the State can do something for these men? I am prepared to face a loss
        2386
        of a good deal more than £6,000,000. I think that we are bound to do so. We have spent altogether between £16,000,000 and £17,000,000 in placing these men on the land, and if we wrote that down by one half at once and allowed these men to have some sense of security, they would be very thankful to the Board. With regard to the purchase of these holdings by the tenants, I part company with the last speaker. It was his innate Toryism that was coming out. It does come out from time to time. I have always been an advocate of tenancy. I hold that as long as a man has fair security of tenure he is far better as a tenant than as an owner. I used to argue that in this House.
        Mr. ROYCE: You do not object if his rent as a purchaser is less than that if he were a tenant?
        Sir R. WINFREY: That is not generally the case. I am certain that there are very few of these men who have the capital to purchase. Therefore, they would have to borrow. They would be in the hands of mortgagees directly. I have had a good deal to do with small owners who have also been occupiers of their holdings and have had what are called monkeys upon the land. A very unenviable position it is for them. With regard to the Small Holdings Act, the House must remember that before the War we passed the Act of 1908 and appointed a number of Small Holdings Commissioners to carry it out through the county councils. We gave the county councils full power either to purchase or lease land and let it in smallholdings. Up to the time of the War the Act was a tremendous success. The land was let to the men on an economic basis; there was no charge to the State. They paid their way in every county, and it was not until the War that the arrangement came temporarily to an end. Then we introduced the Land Settlement Act specially for the ex-service men.
        In 1914 there was a waiting list of thousands of men who wanted smallholdings. That waiting list is still in existence in the pigeon-holes of the county councils and of the Small Holdings Commissioners. The time has arrived when we ought to begin again to administer the Act, not necessarily for ex-service men only, but for all men in rural districts who want small holdings.

        2387
        The demand is still there. I have an unsatisfied demand in my constituency of some hundreds of men who, despite the slump in agriculture, are anxious for small holdings at a reasonable and economic rent. I assume that the answer which the Government will give will be, "We have not the money now for buying land and we cannot finance the county councils." That may be so. But the Act contains a very important Clause, giving county councils power to lease land for a period of 35 years. That is quite long enough. I suggest to the Minister that he should now let the county councils know by circular that they can resume the administration of the Small Holdings Act of 1908, and that he should leave it to the county councils to purchase land or lease it.
        I must say a few words with regard to the experiments on light lands in Norfolk. Some time before the War, through the Development Commission, a grant was obtained by the Board of Agriculture for making an experiment on our lightest land in Norfolk over an area of 200 or 300 acres. I had known that land for 30 years as nothing but a rabbit warren. It belonged to the Duchy of Lancaster, and it was leased for this experiment. The experiment has proved very successful indeed. It was tried during the whole period of the War and since. It was land which brought in no rent before. It is true that it was let with a large farm, but the rental for it was infinitesimal, if anything. Potato crops have been grown there as an experiment. The land has been properly wrought. I am not sufficiently acquainted with chemistry to understand the matter fully, but it is all set out in the Report of the Development Commission. Hon. Members can see the Reports from year to year and the balance-sheets. The time has arrived when the Board of Agriculture might extend that experiment very largely. It would encourage labour. There are thousands of acres of light land in Norfolk, out of cultivation altogether now, simply because cultivation does not pay. I do not blame the ordinary owner for not putting capital into it, nor do I blame any possible tenants for not taking the land. It is the Government which ought to make the experiment. I hope the Minister will turn his attention to the matter.
        2388
        I would emphasize what has been said with regard to a cheaper parcel post for agriculture. I believe that that would be a very great benefit. I trust that the Minister will be able to use his influence with the Postmaster-General. The Postmaster-General has been down to Norfolk and he knows now what some of the difficulties are with regard to telephones and so on, and very likely we could get some help from him. The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Shepperson), who made his maiden speech, has left the House for a moment; otherwise I would have liked to have congratulated him on his excellent speech. He referred to the question of barley. I am a little perplexed. How is it that Norfolk barley has not been used far malting this year?
        Mr. CAUTLEY: For want of sun.
        Sir R. WINFREY: I think that is the reason. It is entirely a question of quality. Messrs. Bass, the great brewers, have not used a single quarter of our Norfolk barley this year: they have used foreign barley almost entirely. The result is that prices have gone down. Our Norfolk barley this year would make only second-rate malt. I am told that the granaries are full of second-rate malt. What the brewers want is first-rate malt, and they buy from Canada and Austria and other places. Suppose there were a 10s. duty placed upon foreign barley tomorrow? Would that duty compel our malsters to buy Norfolk barley when it is of inferior quality? I do not think it would. That is one of the points which the hon. Member should take into consideration before he talks about Protection. I hope that the hon. Member who moved a reduction of the Vote will not press it to a Division, because we have had an excellent statement from the Minister and we would be wise to await the full agricultural policy of the Ministry before we go into the Division Lobby. Speaking for those friends who sit with me on these benches, I would say that we do not propose to take part in any Division if one is pressed.
        8.0 P.M.
        Mr. CAUTLEY: I have the same feeling of regret already, expressed by many hon. Members, that we cannot discuss here the future policy on agriculture, but are confined to questions of administration. It is always preferable to look to the future, and attacking a

        2389
        Minister is not altogether a profitable business. We have already heard a good deal to-night about the small holdings established under the Act of 1908 and under the Land Settlement Act of 1919. A more curious and interesting example of State ownership it would be difficult to find in either case. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has spoken with no exaggeration about the success of the small holdings under the 1908 Act, partly under his care and also in his neighbourhood. I would point out that those particular holdings lie in the rich fens, and are similar land to that of the constituency which the hon. Member for Spalding (Mr. Royce) represents. Then I would also point out that in all small holdings administered by public authorities from 1908 to 1914, the occupants met continually rising markets throughout the whole period, which is a very material circumstance to anybody in any business. It is a cruel hardship to put men on to land unless they can have a reasonable chance of success, and now many of the old tenants have lost all they put into it, and we have them coming to their representatives in Parliament begging them to get something done.
        I was pointing to the illustration we had here of State management. Would the Committee be surpirsed to hear that in the administration of the Small Holdings Act the cost of pure management amounts to 9s. an acre throughout the whole country There is not a land agent in this country who, if he showed such a figure to a private owner, would not get his dismissal at the shortest notice his employer could give him. These show that we should look with great care to the extension of small holdings, and particularly limit the people who are put on the land to those who have experience in agriculture, who have been brought up to it and who understand it. Let us now look at the appalling figures the Minister has put before us of the men who have been settled under the 1919 Act. The holdings have cost about £750 apiece. We have had nearly 19,000 men settled, and every year, over and above the rents these men pay, this House has been called upon to subsidise each man by a sum of £45, and that is a figure that is increasing, and, as has been rightly pointed out by the two preceding speakers, must increase more and more
        2390
        in the future. We are this year called upon to vote £850,000 for the costs of the county councils, over and above the rents which they have received from these tenants. Every speaker who has spoken about the position of those men who have been settled tells the same, tale, that they must have their rents substantially reduced or they cannot live, that they have lost not only the money advanced by the State to help them to go on their holdings, but they have lost their own money and their position is deplorable. The last hon. Gentleman who spoke said the only possible hope is that they should have their rents very much reduced, which means an increase of the Vote we will have to give next year. I want to ask the Minister whether he is still settling ex-service men on the land under this Act? I ask him for this reason. A man came to me in my own constituency about three weeks ago and told me his short career. He had been in the Army, he had been trained by the Government for one year for agriculture, and I estimated that that had cost the State £100. The State had then put him on a small holding, at Banstead in Surrey along with nine other people, 10 in all. The State advanced him £100 and he had about £100 of his own, as I understood it. He told me, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, that the whole of the 10 people put on to these holdings had to leave within a year. They had been ruined and they had lost their money and everything they had. This man had lost his money and he came to ask me if there was anything I could. do for him. If these things are going on now, is it not folly to continue them? I desire to ask the Minister whether he is still pursuing this policy?
        Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Gentleman give us the rents these 10 ex-service men were paying?
        Mr. CAUTLEY: No, I cannot. I did not go into that question. With the cost of the equipment of the small holdings and the subsidy these holdings cannot be carried on as a business proposition. The only chance of success and the only success of small holdings I have come across was in the East Riding of Yorkshire, where the men were selected as having had an agricultural training, having been brought up to it, and having a little capital of their own. I would like to make one observation before I leave the subject. I

        2391
        would suggest that the results of these settlements should be made public, because in my own county of Sussex Army officers who have left the Army on disbandment are being induced to take up farms. They think that if they can get a holding life will be easy and there will be a living to be got out of it. They come and spend their money, they stay six or 12 months and lose money, and they go out after losing three-fourths of their money, if not the whole. I think it is a sin and a crime to induce people to take up small holdings, in the case of the men, or larger holdings in the case of the officers, when they cannot make a living out of it.
        I would like now to turn to another matter. Last December, the House passed a Bill enabling Canadian cattle to be brought into this country. That Act made some stringent provisions in regard to the conditions under which these cattle were to be allowed into this country. By Section I of the Act, Canadian cattle coming here were to he limited to store cattle, and store cattle if they were females were to be sterilised. The purpose of the Bill was to bring an additional meat supply to this country, and there was no suggestion made that we were to have this country flooded with imported breeding cattle. There is no need for them. There was, however, put into that Act of Parliament a second Clause which gave power to the Minister under, as we all understood, special circumstances to allow the importation of breeding cattle under such terms as the Minister might impose, provided that they protected our country against the introduction of disease. Everybody, so far as I am aware, thoroughly understood that that was only intended to allow cattle of a high class which would improve our stocks to come in, as we had recently had an illustration of highly-bred pedigree Friesian cattle coming to this country from South Africa. I had an Amendment down to exclude store cattle from the operation of Clause 2. As the Clause was originally drawn, it was possible for the Minister, I think, to introduce store cattle into the country under Regulations made by himself. The Attorney-General who replied to me made statements in his speech—I have got them here—from which I understood—and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of
        2392
        London who was to move the exclusion of the whole Clause on these grounds, was satisfied—that the only terms on which breeding cattle would be introduced here would be on similar terms to the Canadian Regulations, namely, 30 days' quarantine and proper inspection.
        I want to ask the Minister now why he is suggesting making Regulations, as we are given to understand he is, to introduce Canadian breeding cattle of any sort or quality into this country? We do not want that. We have the best breeding stock in the world. We are spending now public money in subsidising highly-bred pedigree bulls for the purpose of gradually raising the quality of our cattle, and we are told now that the Minister is to introduce Regulations here to admit of the introduction of Canadian breeding cattle of any sort or quality for some years. I ask the Minister why? Why are we to have these Regulations; why were we misled, when the subject of Canadian cattle was under discussion in this House by the statement that the removal of the embargo only referred to store cattle, and breeding cattle were only to be admitted on the same Regulations as those applied by the Canadians to cattle going from here? I have heard that it is in order to carry out some undertaking given by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor that the new proposal is made, but what right had his predecessor to attempt to bind this House? Unless one has a satisfactory explanation of this matter, it is difficult to see how one is to support the Government. I hope we will have some explanation failing an assurance that it is not true that the Minister proposes to lay upon the Table Regulations for the admission of Canadian breeding cattle of any sort or quality, without any restriction whatever.
        I agree with what the right hon. Member for Chelmsford said about the excellent way in which the scientific department of the Ministry is carried on, but in connection with the inspection work, I wish to call attention to a most extraordinary transaction and I am sorry that the Minister is not present to hear it. The steamship "Hartington" left Monte Video on New Year's Day with a cargo of 250 cattle and about 1,000 sheep. The animals were carried on deck, and down below the deck were very large quantifies of feeding stuffs, meals and

        2393
        various sorts of grain used for cattle feeding. It carried a Uruguayan veterinary surgeon, and after the ship had started an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease was discovered among the cattle and sheep. The captain threw overboard those animals which were actually affected, but when the ship arrived at its port of destination, which was Antwerp, it was not allowed to enter the port. The Belgian authorities had means of knowing what was wrong. The captain then directed his ship to London and on the way across he jettisoned the whole of the animals left and the whole of the fittings which had been erected for carrying this cargo of sheep and cattle, washed down the decks and sailed into the Thames. By the laxity, I suggest of the right hon. Gentleman's Office or the laxity of the arrangements with the Customs, or by want of proper co-ordination among the various authorities at the Port, of London, this captain was allowed to land the rest of his cargo from the ship although it was contaminated with the urine and excreta. of these animals. Five days after the cargo was landed some of it was delivered in my constituency.
        Mr. J. JONES: No wonder!
        Mr. CAUTLEY: I do not quite understand the point of the hon. Member's observation. This stuff which was likely to be infected and to spread disease, was delivered at a station in my constituency where, fortunately, it was stopped because the merchant who had sold it heard of what had occurred but not through the Ministry of Agriculture and it did not go any further. That is a very extraordinary story, and I think the Committee will be surprised to hear that no proceedings of any sort or kind have been taken against the proprietors of this cargo or against the captain or the officers of the vessel. We do not know how much of this contaminated stuff went to other parts of the country, but I suggest that the transaction shows a considerable laxity and a want of proper protection against the importation of disease. I should like to know, first of all, how this happened, and secondly whether any steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of such an incident, and to improve the intelligence department of the Ministry of Agriculture, so that they may get earlier information as to what is going on? I should also like to know
        2394
        why no legal proceedings have been taken against either the officers or owners of the vessel or the owners of the cargo concerned?
        Mr. MacLAREN: I have very few questions to put to the Minister of Agriculture for several very good reasons, one being that I have not had sufficient time to go into this very bulky report which I only received to-day, but in the discussions which have taken place there have arisen some points on which I should like information from the Minister. I wish to ask if he will give full details of the cost of the settlement of the ex-service men upon the land, and what is the main cause for the annual loss on these rentals. I have listened patiently all this afternoon, as I very often do in this House, to discourses upon land and many other things. It may be that I have a strange way of looking at things, but I cannot understand why men will not look to the fundamentals of a question instead of tinkering about and trying to adjust it at the end. Another question which I wish to put to the Minister is, does the 4 per cent of imported potatoes include potatoes imported into Scotland or does it represent only the importation for England and Wales? The right hon Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) rather astonished me by his contribution to the Debate because I thought the Debate was going to be tied down to the! Vote of Supply, but on the whole it is just as well and it is quite interesting, that the right hon. Gentleman should have taken the course he did take, because it gives those on this side of the, House an opportunity for also indulging in a peregrination into the whole question of agriculture. I am not an agriculturist and that may discount what I have to say on the subject, in the eyes of some hon. Members opposite. I should like to tell them, however, that last Saturday afternoon, when addressing some farmers in the south of Surrey, I was informed by one of the leading farmers of the district that he always welcomed the incoming to that area of a man from the town, who was undertaking farming because, ultimately, such a man made the best farmer. To begin with, he would keep books; he showed more enterprise, and he had more courage in facing up to the landowners who tried to make exac-

        2395
        tions from him. Perhaps, therefore, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford might find me a very good farmer if I accepted his invitation to come down and take an allotment from him in one of those luxurious five-room and kitchen houses in which he says his agricultural labourers live at 1s. 6d. a week.
        Mr. J. JONES: A millionaire on eighteen pence!
        Mr. MacLAREN: We are being asked by the Ministry of Agriculture to give all sorts of concessions to the agricultural industry of this country, and I cannot help feeling, as we are now under the shadow of new propositions likely to he brought into this House, that there is, consciously or unconsciously, a move on the part of the landowners of Great Britain to make an exaction on the taxpayers of this country in order to recoup themselves as quickly as possible, in view of what might happen in the near future In the way of land legislation on the incoming of the Labour party into power. We are asked to make concessions to this industry. The only person who makes no concessions to agriculture is the man who owns the land upon which agriculture is carried out. He stands to gain; the agricultural labourer stands, what? A mud cottage and 15s. before 1914. Now he is to be content and ascend into heaven on 26s. a week under the benign and beneficent guardianship of a good landlord, so we are told. What are the concessions we have made lately? I wish the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was in his place to-night, because he started well in 1896 with his virulent attacks upon the Agricultural Rates Act. He instinctively felt that that was the beginning of a bail course. It was the beginning of concessions on rating which in the long run went to swell the coffers of the landlord, but as time went on the right hon. Gentleman changed. I will take that, however, as the first concession to the landowners.
        The Agricultural Rates Act of 1896 allowed agricultural land to be rated on half its nominal assessable value, and it is interesting to note that it is only the land that has to be rated on half its nominal assessable value, and that the buildings are not exempted. Then we come along to another concession, the Corn Production Act of 1917 to 1921. The
        2396
        Corn Production Act was well described in this House by a friend of mine, who for many years sat in the House, and who said it was not a Corn Production Act but a Rent Production Act. The Corn Production Act sent up the values of land in this country to an artificially high point. Speculation was let loose, and farmers were pressed by landowners to buy their land out at the artificially high values. They had either to buy the land or clear out, and I see that even in these Reports, the Credit Report and the Interim Report, it is openly admitted that as a result of the Corn Production Act land values were swollen, which gave the landlords the opportunity which they wanted to press the farmers into purchase at an artificially high value. After a while, the Corn Production Act was withdrawn, and loud protests went up from all the landowners that the Government had been false to them.
        Mr. CAUTLEY: The hon. Member ought to call attention to the fact that in the Corn Production Act there was a provision that rents should not be raised owing to the Act.
        Mr. MacLAREN: That is true, but the hon. and learned Member is surely astute enough to know that when a lease falls in or a new agreement has to be made between landlord and tenant, another matter enters; new agreements have to be made, and, by virtue of the increased land value, the landlord has the tenant for all he is worth. When the Corn Production Act was withdrawn, and moanings went up from the landowners of England that the Government had been false to them, the Government of that time turned and dropped the famous land taxes of the 1909–10 Finance Act. I want to say that I, for one, in common with those of us who knew something about the ramifications of that Finance Act, knew that these fancy taxes were stupid in the extreme, and not worth the paper and the time taken up in publishing them. We were against those taxes, but the point is this, that the land taxes under the Finance Act of 1909–10 were dropped, and the money was paid back to the landlords. That is another concession, and I would like to know—indeed, I must put it in the form of a question some day to the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer—how much

        2397
        money went back to the landowners at the very time when taxation was being raised on commodities in the country.
        There was a concession that followed fast on the heels of that one, for £15,000,000 was set aside by the Government to compensate the farmers because of the speedy withdrawal of the Corn Production Act. In 1922 another concession was made to the landowners, a concession in the matter of taxation. Assessment under Schedule B was reduced from twice the annual value of the holding to the single annual value of the holding, and so wherever you look, from, let us say, 1896 down to the present day, there has been concession after concession made to the agricultural industry. Yet landowners will enter this House and plead for concessions to be made at the expense of the taxpayer of the cities for the benefit of the agricultural class. What happens? The facts are outstanding, in your own Reports of the two tribunals you have set up, the Interim Report and the Credit Report. The facts are that the wages of the agricultural labourer did not swell as a consequence of these concessions, but the land values went up. Here we have got this anomaly, that we have a dispute in Norfolk of agricultural labourers over wages, while there are records going on from day to day of the high realised values of land that is being sold. Of course, we are told by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford that land is not a paying proposition, that it is a worry, and almost every landowner you meet will tell you that really it would be far better if he was investing his money in something else. It is a strange thing that these landowners of England, who bemoan their fate, as a result of their disposition of society are the last men to give up that which God, or someone else, has allowed them to hold. I have in my hand a report of Messrs. Knight, Frank, and Rutley, who know something about the prices realised in the sale of land, and I would like to make a few quotations:
        " Well-situated farms, with good houses and buildings, and a fair proportion of grass land, have readily found buyers provided early possession was available. In grazing and dairying districts, particularly in the Northern half of England, farms have sold well, and in many cases the tenants have bought.…In spite of critical conditions, there are practically no farms to let at present."
        2398
        I come to another statement:
        " From a financial point of view, and disregarding personal and sentimental considerations, the results accruing to the owner of a landed and an agricultural estate by its sale have been eminently satisfactory. It has been stated earlier in this memorandum that there were many landowners who were receiving a net rental of not more than 1 per cent. on the capital value of their estates. We have said also that rents were on a low level, and that prices realised were based, not on the existing rents, but on a fair market rental. The results of a sale could thus not fail to produce a sum which, invested in trustee securities at current rates of interest, has given an income greatly in excess of that formerly received."
        Then they give this as an illustration. It is the case of
        " an agricultural estate of sonic 5,500 acres in a southern county, the owner of which was in receipt of an income of barely £2,000 a year from it. The property realised a total of £193,000. Allowing liberally for expenses, the purchase money invested at 5 per cent. would produce £9,000 per annum."
        An HON. MEMBER: May we have the date?
        Mr. MacLAREN: February, 1923—upto-date, as we always are on this side. I want the House to appreciate how much truth there is behind the assertion from the vested interests in land in England that there is no value in it, and that they are really facing bankruptcy. I could go on, hut I think one of.the most classical pages I have ever read in a State or public document appears on page 9 of the Report of the Committee on Agricultural Credit. It is there stated:
        " The increase in occupying-ownership arose mainly from the necessity with which landowners were confronted of selling their estates and diverting their capital to a remunerative form of investment. This, of itself, was no new feature. Indeed, as far back as 1911 a marked increase was noticeable in the number of agricultural estates offered for sale. This increase was considered then to be partly due to a feeling of apprehension among landowners as to the tendency of legislation and taxation in regard to land "—
        The Committee will see that at that time the landowners of England really believed that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) really meant what he said—
        " and partly to the opportunities then existing of disposing of agricultural estates on favourable terms. The crushing demands of war taxation hastened the process and

        2399
        many landowners saw in the general rise in the value of agricultural real estate an opportunity to relieve themselves of the unremunerative duties of ownership and to sell their estates on a rising market at considerable personal advantage‥‥The resultant competition among purchasers was, moreover, increased in 1919 and 1920 by the entry into the market of the county councils, who bought extensively for purposes of land settlement. We consider, therefore, that farmers were as much pressed "—
        Notice the word—
        " to purchase by the keenness of the demand for land for occupation as they were by the landowners who wished to sell. In many cases they bought in order to avoid being turned out of the homes which their families had occupied for generations."
        That, I think, is a classical document which should be reprinted by the Labour party, and issued broadcast throughout the country. I have said, I think, enough to show that there is no truth behind the assertion that those who own land are holding an asset which is falling in value, and, indeed, according to their own statements, may soon become a dead burden in their hands. They are asking, not only that these concessions shall be maintained, but that the Road Board shall contribute liberally to the making of roads. They are asking that they shall not be burdened with the rates necessary to maintain these roads, and I cannot, of course, go much further without corning into clash with the Chair. But this point has already been touched upon by the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), so that I may just deal with it as far as he did. I want to ask any honest, straightforward holder of land in England, in view of these concessions, in view of the expenditure of the Government in making and maintaining new roads, in view of all that is being done by Government expenditure in the way of agricultural education, through the Ministry of Agriculture, through drainage schemes, ostensibly to give work to the unemployed, and all the time sending up land values—I want to ask such a man whether he thinks that we on this side are so blind that we cannot see this constant expenditure of public money on the development of land in this country is increasing the value of every acre of land in the country contiguous to those roads? The right hon. Member for Chelmsford thought he was saying much
        2400
        that was challenging the position of the Labour party. He was pointing out that when he used the land, or built upon the land, he was harrassed by rates and taxes. We on this side agree. We do not agree that when a man is in possession of a piece of land, and builds houses upon it, when he drains and improves the soil, that man should be penalised under any system of rating. But we on this side are not responsible for the present system of rating. It is Members opposite and the Government who maintain it, and I dare say if we on this side of the House went into the Lobby over that matter, we should find every Member opposite, who complaints about the rates, supporting the old rating system. There is no system, in my opinon, outside of a lunatic asylum to equal our present rating system, and the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, who made his name—
        The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Member is anticipating intervention on my part. I fear if he continues his argument it must involve fresh legislation.
        Mr. MacLAREN: I am a little enthusiastic on this topic, and so forgot the restrictions of Debate. I was not proposing fresh legislation, so much as criticising present legislation as it affects agriculture, and, as it stands to-day, the more you use the land, the more you develop it, the more you are penalised by rates. We on this side agree.
        Mr. CAUTLEY: But the more you develop the land and the more you put houses on it the better it is?
        Mr. MacLAREN: My point of criticism is that the present rating system in its operation does tend to harass the man, whether it be the farmer or any other user of the land, and makes it more difficult for him to develop his soil. We are not in favour of that system. We are in favour of another system altogether, which we will mention when the opportunity arises.
        I feel somewhat compromised by the ruling of the Chair. I should like to have gone more widely into the whole problem, but I want to say in closing, that whatever advances the Ministry of Agriculture may make towards the development of agriculture, we on this side of the House will support the Minister if

        2401
        those advances mean opening up the soil of the country and agricultural development in England. I want to say in passing that the agricultural possibilities of England have not yet been touched beyond the fringe, by artificial manuring, proper equipiment, up-to-date transport, and electrical development. With all these things, operating on a free country, free from the trammels of private monopoly, who can say what England can produce in the way of food? No one. If anything the Ministry may advance in the way of development of agriculture would mean the opening up of these opportunities of life and secure to the labourer on the soil the full value of the services he renders, we on this side will support the Ministry. But let me give a word of warning. If any advantages have to be made at the expense of the taxpayer of the towns, if any developments have to be carried out for the rates, if any agricultural development is undertaken by means of subventions, of taxes to enhance the agricultural land values of England, then we an this side of the House will contest the suggestions every inch of the way. We do not believe it is the function of the State to continue to tax the pockets of the people of the towns to increase the value to the owners of land in the country districts.
        Captain FALCON: Doubtless the hon. Gentleman who last spoke will expect that I profoundly differ from him, as is the case, in the deductions he draws from the present position of agriculture and the methods that we ought to adopt if we wish, as every Member here does, to endeavour to get once more a prosperous countryside. So far as I could follow the hon. Member, he seemed to lay the cause of a lot of the trouble at the door of the landowner. I differ from him in that instead of saying that our troubles are due to the iniquitous landowner, so far, at any rate, as the agricultural districts are concerned, and in respect to those parts of the country which are under arable cultivation, maintain that a great deal of the trouble is due to the fact that the landowner, as he used to be known, no longer exists. Anyone who knows, is aware that the farmers who are hardest hit, at the present moment are those known under the category of occupying-owners. Their position is one which has been brought about, so far as I can understand it, by the policy pursued in
        2402
        agriculture even before the War, when there was undoubtedly a tendency on the part of landowners to sell out; and when opportunity offered they preferred to cease owning the land and sold out.
        The hon. Member rather seems to ask the Committee to infer that the value of land appreciated enormously in value during the War. Undoubtedly the value of land did appreciate. I cannot for the moment quote actual figures, because I did not expect this point to arise, but I think I remember hearing it stated in. this House that the value of the land during the War—agricultural land that is —did not appreciate more than 25 per cent. At any rate a great many farmers did take the opportunity of becoming occupying owners, and in a great many instances bought the land, and it is they, landowner and a farmer as well, who are now suffering most. Where you have the landowner, he has provided what is known as the fixed capital which is necessary to carry on any undertaking, even farming, and he has provided that fixed capital at a very low rate of interest. The position of the farmer who is a tenant farmer is only to provide a circuating capital; the occupying owner provides both. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) when he said that he had expected that the present dispute in the county which I help to represent would shortly come to a close. He asked hon. Members to say nothing here which would in any way tend to make that dispute continue. I personally do not want to do so, because I am most anxious to see it come as speedily as possible to an end.
        In moving a reduction of this Vote the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. N. Buxton) censured the Government for the way in which the Ministry carried out their administrative duties in regard to this dispute. I rather disagree with the hon. Members in attaching blame to the Government. So far as I can understand, the Ministry in their administrative capacity have done all they could. There have been people dealing with it representative of both sides of the dispute; I do not think that the Ministry could have done anything more administratively than they have done. It is a deadlock brought about by the economic conditions brought into existence during the last 18 months,

        2403
        and until we can get out of that position we shall continue to have the low wages in the countryside which we have got at the present time. Until we can get a closer relation between the wholesale and retail prices of the products of the industry, I fail to see, however much we may desire it, that we can get a very much larger wage than the one in operation at the present time. Again the action of the railway companies in reducing the cost of handling the goods and products of the farms will be a great factor in helping in this matter.
        When hon. Members opposite rather taunt hon. Members on this side of the House about the wages paid to agricultural labourers, let them remember that in regard to the goods that are produced on a farm the prices, are largely determined in the market by the cost of distributing and handling, and, therefore, when large wages are paid in other industries, that all affects the wages paid to the agricultural labourer. It is not possible in this Debate to discuss measures which would lead to a permanent improvement of the wages of the agricultural labourers. The Minister of Agriculture pointed to the one bright spot in agriculture, and that is the success of the sugar-beet industry. In the course of the Debate the reason has been brought out why that industry is so largely prosperous. Therefore one can well understand why the barley growers in Norfolk—after all, the barley crop is the main crop in that county—are anxious to see that malting barley should receive a preference of 10s. a quarter.
        The CHAIRMAN: That question is not in order on this Vote.
        9.0 P.M.
        Captain FALCON: The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. N. Buxton) asked for an inquiry into the question of wages. Even in my short career I have seen numerous inquiries set up in one, way or another to deal with agriculture, and everybody understands now what is the position and why wages are what they are in the agricultural industry. Therefore I do not think the Government would usefully spend either time or money in that direction. I also disagree with the hon. Member for North Norfolk on another point, and that is in regard to agricultural committees. The hon. Member
        2404
        represents a constituency very close to mine and I think he will agree that a very great majority of the farmers in that district, which is eminently a corn growing district, know how to farm, and they can farm well, and they do not require a, committee, which is very often composed of other farmers in the district, to tell them how to farm. Their difficulty has always been a question of price, that is, the price of corn, and that is a matter which really answers the complaint of the last speaker who said that nobody knew what the resources of this country were so far as agriculture was concerned, and that if we did this, that, and the other, it would be extraordinary how much more food we should produce in this country. I quite agree that by farming very highly you produce more corn, but the higher you farm the more costly it is, and that is the whole trouble.
        Mr. N. BUXTON: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman not think that during the War the Agricultural Committees composed of farmers found a good deal to do, and it had a great effect in the case of a large number of farms.
        Captain FALCON: I cannot speak as to that because I was not in the county during the War, but I have heard various criticisms of the action of the Committees, and it was not all good that they did, and lots of land was ploughed up that really did not pay. Then we were dealing with the question of producing corn and the price did not enter into it. Now the price does enter into it, in fact, it is the whole thing with the farmer. With corn at a high price during the War the farmer was able to do his land well, but now, with a very low price, he cannot do it in the same way. The action of the Agricultural Committees, upon which the hon. Member wishes more money to be spent, would not really help at the present time.
        There is also the question of drainage. The Ministry of Agriculture had a drainage scheme for the watershed which drains out at Yarmouth and Lowestoft, and so far as I can remember, early in the year the Government gave up the scheme they had in hand, and I understand they did this to the general satisfaction of a number of people who were immediately concerned with this question in that part of the country. I think they

        2405
        were anxious that the scheme should be given up because of the fear of the cost that might be entailed. Nevertheless I am sure that the Minister will agree that there is need for action being taken in that part of the country and for drainage operations to be undertaken. I would ask him, before he finally gives up the scheme altogether, whether he could not go into the matter with those interested, and see that some scheme or other is carried through which will bring about the desired results, but not in such an elaborate way as the scheme which he has now thrown overboard. I am sorry to have taken up so much of the time of the Committee, and I only hope that the hon. Member will not press his Amendment.
        Mr. S. PATTINSON: It has been suggested to me to-night that I am hardly the proper person to speak about distressed agriculture, but appearances are sometimes deceptive, and every Britisher who is worth his salt always put the best face on all circumstances. My hon. Friend the Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) will agree with me in that. I want to draw the attention of the Committee, not so much to the distress in agriculture, as to certain peculiarities with regard to the position of ex-service men on small holdings. In my division I believe we have more ex-service men on small holdings than in any other division, with the exception, perhaps, of that of the hon. Member for the Holland Division (Mr. Royce). I gathered to-day from the Debate that there is supposed to be a total loss on these small holdings of £6,400,000, and, as a member of the county council, I should have liked to know where the money was coming from to meet that liability. Under the Act of the late Government it is, I believe, proposed to make a. revaluation of the whole of the small holdings. That means that those counties which have provided small holdings in the past, and have paid off a large sum of money on them, will have to have the whole of their small holdings re-valued in order to pay for the holdings that have been bought at an extravagant price. I should like to hear whether that is right or not. If it is, it is a great injustice to those people who have been working for so many years on these small holdings. They have, after all, earned the redemption money that has been paid, and, instead of receiving
        2406
        the benefit, they have worked for the benefit of the community of the county in which they live. It would be a great injustice if they were called upon to meet this large loss, which has been very largely due to the fact that the Government of the day made a very bad bargain during war-time.
        I wish to acknowledge at once that the right hon. Gentleman has done his best with regard to these men on their holdings, but I want to know whether he will consider the possibility of relieving those men who have paid the money for their inventory, while a large proportion of men on these small holdings have not paid either their inventory or any interest upon it. I think it is grossly unfair to the man who has been to his friends or to his bank and borrowed money to pay his inventory, that he Should now find himself in this position, that he has paid up the whole of his inventory, while his neighbour has paid neither inventory or interest. My suggestion is that the Minister should either call upon those men to pay their inventory who have not paid it, or should refund the inventory to those who have paid, and that there should be an equitable adjustment. The inventory during war-time was out of all reason. A great deal of that land had been farmed, not on the usual four-course system, but was farmed for the purposes of war conditions, and, while they had to pay a very large inventory, they really got very little benefit from it. The whole conditions should be very carefully gone into, and some revaluation of the inventory should be made, so that these men may he able to meet their liabilities and make a decent living, and feel that there is no liability attached to their holdings.
        There are other questions, of course, which are of great interest to me, as the representative of, probably, the most agricultural division in England. We have not a tall chimney in the district. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he hoped to find money for further schemes. I wish to acknowledge in this Chamber the great service that has been done in my division in the way of coast defence against erosion by the sea. The right hon. Gentleman has done a great work, and I think it only right that I should publicly acknowledge that in my division he has saved a large number of acres of land

        2407
        as a result of the advances he has made to the landowners and the tenants in that district. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh! "I Let hon. Members make no mistake about the landowners there. They are all smallholders; there are no large ones. There is not a large number of rich men there, or I have no doubt the Minister would have taken good care that he did not give too much money to them. I should not have asked him, anyhow, to advance money to men who could have provided the money themselves for this coast defence. When the Minister does a good thing it is only right that one should acknowledge it, although I sit in opposition to the right hon. Gentleman, and shall probably vote against him every time. I was very glad to hear him say he expected to get more money, and I hope that at some time he may complete that sea wall, which is really a great adjunct to the large area of grazing land in Lincolnshire, which would have been submerged had not the Ministry stepped in to save it. We hear a great deal about bankruptcies in agriculture, and I happen to know a little about that subject. I assure the Committee that, in the little town of Sleaford, in Lincolnshire, where I live, we had no less than five bankruptcies registered in one day, all of farmers, and the time has come when we really must consider this question, perhaps not in the way that hon. Members on this side of the Committee above the Gangway would consider it, but with a view to carrying on for the present until something can be done. I cannot, of course, in a Debate of this sort, make any suggestion with regard to that.
        Last year there were contracts let for what we call dried peas. We have heard questions in this Chamber, not once but twenty times, asking for the names of certain public bodies who were not employing ex-Service men, and especially disabled ex-Service men, hut a contract was let for these dried peas, not to an English firm, not even to an Englishman, but to Japanese. Now, in every contract that is issued there is one Clause which says that ex-Service men—disabled ex-Service men—should be employed. I want to ask the Government whether, when they let this contract for peas to the Japanese Government, they put that Clause in, that disabled British ex-Service men should be employed in the pick-
        2408
        ing of the peas. It may be a small matter in this House of Commons; but it is a big thing in my county where these peas are grown.
        The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member say this was a contract made by the Board of Agriculture?
        Mr. PATTINSON: No, Sir.
        The CHAIRMAN: Then I am afraid he cannot pursue it.
        Mr. PATTINSON: Like the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) the other night, I am glad I have said as much as I have. I could discuss the question of rates and other things for a long period, but we are going to have a day given us by the Government, and I will reserve those remarks till that time comes. I strongly represent to the right hon. Gentleman that he should consider the position of the ex-service men on these small holdings with regard to their inventory. It is not fair or right that one man should have borrowed from his friends whilst other men have not made the slightest attempt to do anything, and,yet the one man is losing not only the interest on his money but may lose the money he has advanced, while the other man has not made the slightest attempt to meet his inventory. One does not blame the man who has not paid because he has never been in a position to pay. The right hon. Gentleman should deal with the matter as fairly as he possibly can.
        Major MOLSON: I rise as representing an agricultural constituency, and I am very pleased that the Minister is here to answer my appeal to do all he can in the interest not of one but of all branches of the industry—landlords, tenants and labourers. I do not wish to make any party capital; it is far too serious a matter, but as a member of the Agricultural Committee I wish to urge the Minister as strongly as possible to do what he can for the industry. It is now in the most desperate state, and he ought not to delay until it is ruined. At the last election the Prime Minister promised to give sympathetic consideration to the interests of agriculture, and I hope the Minister will urge it forward to the best of his ability. A short time ago I received an influential deputation of my constituents, who met me in a perfectly

        2409
        straightforward and honest way. They did not ask for Protection or for subsidies, but they asked for as much help, in many minor ways, as could be given. We heard to-night, in a very able maiden speech, that some would wish to have Protection and subsidies and some hon. Members opposite would wish to have the land nationalised. He acknowledged quite fairly that both those propositions were out of the question at present, but he appealed that agriculture should be helped in many minor ways without cutting into questions which would divide the House completely.
        I have a very well drawn up copy of resolutions and recommendations provided by the National Farmers' Union of the isle of Axeholme, and, on comparing it with the Report of the Committee of the Land Union, I was very struck with the fact that both bodies recommend dealing with the matter in the same way. They asked for one thing, which we are very pleased to have heard to-day has been attended to—that the railway rates should be greatly reduced. That part of my constituency consists of a great many small occupying owners, people who have a small portion of land which they work and farm themselves, hardly employing any labour. It is intensive cultivation, and they grow potatoes, celery, mangolds, and other produce. The figures they gave me were really astounding. I quite understand that during the last year a great deal of the potatoes have been left on the land and allowed to rot. The pre-War rate for 1 ton was 17s. 10d. They are now paying 31s. 9d. per ton. The 4-ton rate was 8s. 11d., compared with 15s. 11d. We quite understand that such an increase of freight has quite smashed the potato trade. Their celery trade has also been hit very hard. I do not know what the Minister will be able to do with regard to these rates, but I agree that the reduction is not sufficient to make it profitable for the farmers. I suppose it will be hardly possible to suggest that the Government should help the railway companies. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
        Colonel WEDGWOOD: They have had quite enough.
        Major MOLSON: I am sorry if I have entered on any contentious point. I only wish to put forward that the rates these smallholders have to pay for taking their
        2410
        produce into the towns has almost ruined them. With regard to the rates on agricultural land our Parliamentary Agricultural Committee were very glad to receive the £1,250,000, which we hope will relieve the farmers in many rural districts from the rating of their third-class roads.
        I should like to refer to the point of local Agricultural Committees. I think that is really rather an important point. The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. N. Buxton) said that the Agricultural Committees did very good work during the War. My own experience was not very satisfactory. Some of my grass land was ploughed up. It was found to be most unsatisfactory land for ploughing up, and had to be returned to grass almost at once. I am afraid the point the hon. Member made, as to whether the Committees did good work during the War, opens up the very big question of Free Trade, because, during the War, we had not Free Trade, and the Agricultural Committees could recommend the ploughing up of land, which was perfectly necessary for food. Now, however, there is Free Trade, and food can come in more cheaply from other countries, and that makes it difficult for the farmer to keep that ground as arable land. That, I think, is really the answer to that question. You cannot carry out the work which the Agricultural Committees did very well during the War, now, when it is a question of the economical prices. I hope the agricultural community will get relief from the local taxation, which has been pressing very hard upon them. I do not think that would make agriculture profitable at the present time. That is a question, really, of the world's prices.
        The next question which will perhaps be within the bounds of this Debate is that of credits. The Government, understand, have offered the farmers assistance at a certain rate of interest, and the farmers find—
        The CHAIRMAN: I am not quite clear whether this can be done by a Supplementary Estimate. I think it would require legislation. Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture can enlighten us on that point?
        Sir R. SANDERS: Yes, it would.
        The CHAIRMAN: In that case, I am afraid that point is not in order.
        Major MOLSON: Then, I will stop. Another question, in regard to the rates, is whether the Exchequer will help the agricultural community by a net sum, or whether it will guarantee the relief of the rates by paying a portion of them. I bring these questions forward because I hope the Minister will do his best to aid agriculture. I appeal to the House not to treat this as a party question. The agricultural community is far too important in this country for that. I hope we shall none of us make it a question between town and country, but that we shall look at it from a national standpoint, and help agriculture all we possibly can.
        Mr. EDE: I should like, in the first place, to deal with the statement of the Minister of Agriculture with regard to his scheme for rural scholarships. I think, on the whole, it is a good scheme, but it is deplorably small. We are not going to do any real good for agriculture in the way of education until we are prepared to spend as much upon it, and in as many ways, as does Denmark. One point, in particular, I should like to bring to the right hon. Gentleman's notice. Certain classes of these scholarships arc not available for the children of parents whose rent is over £50. I have in my constituency over 120 smallholders Although their holdings are very small, the rent in nearly every case is over £50, if the rent of the house be included. I would press that so far as these scholarships are concerned, that when the rent is computed the rent of the house should not be included, but that merely the rent of the land should be taken into account. That will throw open these scholarships to a very large number of children in my constituency and to others in the County of Surrey who are at present debarred. They are the type of child whom the Minister says would profit by this form of education.
        It does not follow that because a child is born in the country he is, of necessity, fitted for an agricultural occupation, any more than it follows that because he is born in a town he is not fitted for agricultural life. I suggest that if the right hon. Gentleman can find, anywhere in the country, a child of sufficient age, capable of being tested in that way, whose aptitude is toward agriculture, he should be given the benefit, whether his father
        2412
        happens to be employed on the land, or not. It is quite foolish to believe that because a person has been born in the country his best place in the community is to remain in the country. After all, James Cook, the explorer of Australia. was born in an agricultural labourer's cottage. It would have been considerably to the loss of the world if he had been given an agricultural education and kept in a village. He did more good in the world than if he had been confined to a village.
        I should like, as Chairman of the Husbandry Committee of a county council, to deal with one or two points raised in the Debate. I am certainly going to accept the offer of the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) to visit the Elysian fields he painted for us, provided he will give us an assurance that it is a place from which a return journey is possible. So alluring was the picture he painted that, as one who has lived in an agricultural district all his life, I am afraid that it is in a place "from whence no traveller returns." I trust, however, I shall be able to see those cottages, and I only hope that they represent the majority of the cottages in the district in which we are to see them.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: Certainly.
        Mr. EDE: The right hon. Gentleman made one further statement that was news to me, namely, that the public landlord gets his rent. I think the Minister of Agriculture will tell us that very few small holdings committees are getting very much of the rents at the present time.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: Oh. yes.
        Mr. EDE: I can only speak for one county, and their arrears are really appalling. What is worse, all the while these arrears are allowed to mount up, you are further breaking the hearts of the men, because they see themselves continually faced with a wall of debt, through which they cannot hope to escape.
        Mr. PRETYMAN: Hear, hear. The rents are too high.
        Mr. EDE: We met the smallholders in our county, and they met us in a very reasonable way, They said: "If there were no housing shortage we should

        2413
        certainly have left these holdings, but we have a roof over our heads, now. If we clear out, we have no place to go. Therefore, we hope we shall be allowed to stay here, but what we desire to know is, what is to be clone with regard to the two bad seasons through which we have just passed? Can we know whether these rents will be forgiven us, in whole or in part, so that we can make a fresh start with the rent on a basis which we can look forward to paying when the seasons are normal again? "I would press the Minister of Agriculture to enable the county committees speedily to come to a decision on that point, because, for the future good working of the holdings, it is essential to put hack into these men some of the heart and courage with which they started this work.
        Recently, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor in office and myself were touring the same constituency. A statement was made by his predecessor in office, which we tried to get checked from the Ministry, that in the autumn of 1921 a circular was issued, stating that county committees had the power to reduce rents by 40 per cent. I am bound to say that none of the officials of the Ministry have been able to find the circular, but I hope, if such a circular be in existence, that the county committees will be pressed to carry that reduction into effect, and that some effort will be made to get these rents reduced to a reasonable figure as soon as possible. The hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) dealt with the question of the administrative charges. I hope the Minister of Agriculture is giving very careful attention to the cost of the administration of the agricultural committees. I know they are not, entirely to blame, because a circular was issued by the Ministry before the agricultural committees were set up, saying that they were to have a staff based on the education committee standard. The consequence was that under the Act of 1920 we set up staffs capable of dealing with that particular Act, and since then we had to reduce the staffs, owing to the repeal of the greater part of that Act. In the majority of counties that I have been able to check, the greater part of the administration cost is charged up to the small holdings account, although other
        2414
        items are dealt with by the Agricultural Committee, because the Ministry is entirely responsible for all the deficit on the small holdings account. There are certain sums which in many counties should be defrayed out of the county rates for county services, but on the administration side they are being financed by the Exchequer. I hope the Minister will take steps to see that these apportionments are fairly carried out.
        Sir R. SANDERS: This is rather a serious charge which the hon. Member is making against a number of county councils. Perhaps he does not wish to, state openly the names of those county councils, but I should be much obliged if he would give me the names and the details. It is making a charge against them of stealing.
        Mr. EDE: I have gone very carefully into the matter. I know of one county council—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name! "]—I am prepared to give the name, but the' public interest would be better served, perhaps, if I communicated the name to the Minister. If it is challenged I am prepared to state it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name! "J It is the Surrey County Council. On the Surrey County Council the finance committee queried, as the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) queried this high charge, and the agricultural committee retorted that it was riot for the finance committee to object because they were really saving the county rate by making the apportionment that they had. I am on all the committees concerned, and my attention was drawn to other committees which had made similar apportionments. I did not make the statement without having the best grounds for doing so.
        "Under the Act of 1920, and I believe limier the Act of 1921, the Minister has the power to make allowances for the travelling expenses of members of agricultural committees. When the economy movement came, that power was withdrawn from the various county committees. This had the very deplorable effect of depriving us on the agricultural committees of the services of the majority of the agricultural labourers' representatives. If there was one thing encouraging about the Agriculture Acts it was that for the first time for about 150 years the agricultural worker was being actively associated with

        2415
        the management of the industry. I would press upon the Minister that it is highly desirable in the interests of the agricultural community that this particular power of the County Agricultural Committees should be restored, so that we can again have the benefit of these men's experience, because they were able, to my certain knowledge, on many occasions, to give us practical advice of the very highest value. The agricultural committees have lost considerably during the past two years since the withdrawal of that power, and the consequent withdrawal of these men. I am not asking anything that should not be granted if we really desire to see the agricultural labourer associated with the working of the industry in which he is engaged. Last night this House unanimously passed a Resolution in favour of giving the professional workers of the country the power of being associated with the control of their means of livelihood, and I trust that the agricultural labourers will be given the same power on these agricultural committees. It would be for the benefit of the industry if we were to do so.
        Can the Minister make a statement as to the position in regard to the loans that have been advanced to smallholders under the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act? These men were promised that where the applications were approved they should have loans up to a maximum of £for every £ they possessed. In many cases when these loans were granted the valuation of the men's assets was very high, and the consequence was that they were given in some cases a considerable sum of money, and they purchased articles with the money at the time when the valuation m, as high. That has now shrunk, and a good many of these men are exceedingly perturbed as to what will happen if they have to repay the loans at the present time. In the first place, that responsibility rests upon the county committee, but the representatives of the Ministry attend every meeting of the county committee, and generally every meeting of the sub-committees. Therefore the Ministry must be touch with what is happening throughout the country. These men should be given reasonable facilities for the extension of their loans, so that they will not find themselves called upon to repay to the banks at a time when their financial straits are very sore. I urge
        2416
        the Minister to do what he possibly can to see that these men gel: a real chance to make good. He said that only 6½ per cent. had failed. I take it that only 0 per cent. have left the holdings.
        Sir R. SANDERS: That is right.
        Mr. EDE: As one who has been actively engaged in this work since the War, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there are a good many men who feel that they have failed, but who are hanging on to the land, and I urge him to give them every opportunity to go on. There was no sadder sight on the battlefields of Europe than the English agricultural worker who fought side by side with the French and Belgian peasants, whose relation with the soil was a very different thing from his. He fought with a desperation that entitled him to the admiration of the world. As Lord Lee said at Chelmsford in 1920—
        " During the War they (the agricultural labourers) were found generally in the county infantry battalions, and there was no man who endured more or stood more heroically against the unprecedented trials of the campaign than did the English agricultural labourer."
        I am sure that that in a sentiment that w ill be re-echoed in every quarter of the House. I was in Sussex last week, in the Horsham and Worthing Division, and I met there men who had fought. in the War, and who said that had they known that they were coming back to find that the agricultural labourer's condition would be worse after the War than it was before, they did not think they could have stood what they did. I ask the Committee to remember that these men are as great heroes as the men of whom Oliver Cromwell wrote to Mr. Speaker Lenthall:—
        " Honest men, served you faithfully in this action. Sir, they are trusty.‥‥He that ventures his life for the liberty of his country, I wish he trust …you for the liberty he fights for."
        Mr. BRUFORD: I did not intend to intervene in the Debate, but I have heard remarks from various hon. Members of greater or lesser acquaintance with our industry which I feel call for a certain amount of comment from those of us who know something about the industry. The hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) stated that farmers have been able to obtain a return of the Income Tax which they have paid. That is true in the case of some farmers. and whatever

        2417
        the hon. Member may think I can assure him that it does not make the slightest difference whether a farmer is called upon to pay on a single rent or a double rent or any other rent you like. Any farmer who has kept accounts during the last three or four years will get off his Income Tax and not only his Income Tax, on his own farmer's business, but in many cases, as in my own case, his private Income Tax as well. That will show the genuine plight into which agriculture has fallen.
        The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Noel Buxton) has told us that there are thousands of acres uncultivated in this country to-day. I agree with him, and I assure the Committee that those thousands of acres will never pay to cultivate in present circumstances. The lion. Member for Burslem said a great deal about the War Agricultural Committees finding plenty of work to do during the War, and he insinuated, though he did not say so, that their work consisted in compelling farmers to farm their land properly. I happen to be one of the unfortunate individuals who served on a War Agricultural Committee from its inception to its dissolution, and I was chairman of one of its sub-committees, and I know what we had to go through. I know that we who had practical experience had to undo the mess which impractical men had made. Our work was not to compel the farmer to farm his land properly, in very many cases, though there may have been a bad farmer here and there, but our work was to obey the command sent to us by the late Prime Minister, and get corn produced, no matter what it cost. And we did it with the help of the British farmer, with such scratch labour as he could get.
        The country in those days was on its knees to agriculture. Nothing was too good for the farmers then. Everybody was willing to come to help them. I never thought that people' s memory would be so short. The farmers produced all the corn they could, under compulsion for the moment, but they soon did it voluntarily when they saw that the country was in need. They did it without considering whether they were going to make a profit or not. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but I know what I am talking about. They did not consider whether they were going to make a profit or riot. They did
        2418
        it from patriotism, and they would not have wanted an Agricultural Committee to compel them, and at present 99 farmers out of 100 would farm their land better if they were shown a profit, because farmers as a rule are not lunatics, and any farmer, if he could be shown that there was' more profit to be made, would be glad to adopt other methods. But there is no encouragement to farm land well if it will not pay. The hon. Member for Burslem also referred to landlords. I cannot imagine why hon. Members opposite are always out against landlords. To some hon. Members opposite the mention of the word "landlord" is like a red rag waved before a bull.
        Mr. MARCH: Does it make any difference to the bull?
        Mr. BRUFORD: The landlord makes a difference to hon. Members opposite. I have a different opinion of landlords, not because I am one myself, for I am not. My family and I have been tenant farmers on the same farm for something like 200 years, and our best friends during the whole of that time, though we have had several landlords, have been the landlords. When we were in difficulties our landlord would help us. He could help us in those days. I remember well the first year I was in business. I was not left in a very flourishing condition and I had difficulty in raising my rent and my landlord wrote and said, "Pay your rent when you can." Would the State do that? Would any public body do that?
        Mr. RICHARDSON: Do landlords everywhere do that?
        Mr. BRUFORD: Yes. [Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite can laugh. I am talking about what I know from my own experience. It is a cruel libel on the English landlord to make the remarks which are often made about him here. I am not a landlord. I never have been and never shall be. I am only speaking of my own private experience. If you want agriculture to pay, and to continue, you must support private ownership of land and private interest in land. I would far rather rent under a good landlord with a big capital than be my own landlord. My own landlord offered me my farm some time ago, and I said that I would prefer him to go on owning it, and rent-

        2419
        ing it to me, and I am better off to-day than if I had purchased my farm. [Laughter.] Hon. Members can laugh, but I can speak the truth as well as hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member for North Norfolk told us to grow the right kind of wheat. He said that we did not grow the kind of wheat they grew in Manitoba. We cannot grow the quality of wheat in this country which they grow in Manitoba. Our climate is not what it is in Manitoba. I would also point out that I have tried various kinds of wheat. I had several kinds of wheat sent down by Professor Biffen. I paid a good price for it. I sowed it in four-acre patches, and grew it against other wheat. The result was disastrous. Two or three lots were not worth growing at all, and none of them paid for growing, whereas my Victor and good old Yeoman paid. I am one of those who believe in trying all things and holding fast to that. which is good. It is no use trying too many of these experiments. I ask hon. Members who have no intimate knowledge of agriculture not to be led away by the nostrums of professors and other gentlemen who may be even more ignorant than themselves.
        Another remark of the hon. Member for North Norfolk was that he would give credit facilities only through co-operative societies. I do not know how that is going to benefit agriculture. I do know something of what the private trader would say if co-operative societies were financed by the Government. I ask farmers to be very careful how they join co-operative societies. I ask those who say that cooperation would be the salvation of agriculture not to put. too much faith in the idea. We have a big co-operative association running in this country now. It is called the Co-operative. Wholesale Society, and it has a. very large capital. It ran five or six farms of different classes. It bought wholesale co-operatively, and sold co-operatively, and it had its own distribution shops. Yet that big corporation, with all those facilities and all that capital, lost £60,000 last year on farming. I should be sorry if any body of farmers ran business on those lines. I do not know where you would find a company of farmers with £60,000 to lose.
        10.0 P.M.
        I shall not ask my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches to come down to Somerset. Possibly they might not want
        2420
        to return to this House, and we want to see them back again and have a bit of fun sometimes. But if they do lose their way and come down to my place, I, too, can show them five-roomed cottages for labourers, and those cottages belong to a landlord. I would warn the Minister of Agriculture against placing too much reliance on the milk recording societies of which he spoke. They are very excellent societies, but it is not always the cow that produces the most milk that produces the best milk. I would warn the general public that an old Friesian cow producing 2,000 gallons of milk a year is not the best cow from which to buy milk. They had better buy some milk from a nice little Devon ruby heifer, which does not produce 2,000 gallons a year, but produces milk and beef that are the best in the world. I would also tell the Minister that we do not want the Canadian cattle imported into this country to mix with our home breeds. I shall say a few words which, I am afraid, will not bring smiles to the faces of hon. Members opposite. We were told just. now that railway rates would be reduced if the railway companies could agree with their labour. I appeal to railway labour to try to agree with the employers and allow rates to be reduced. I shall not discuss how much the railways themselves can afford to remit, or how much labour ought to yield. But it is most unfair that an individual who is only 18 years of age and inexperienced should go on a railway platform and earn practically double the wage of an experienced farm labourer. I want to see all labour paid fairly, but I hold that railway wages should have some relation to the wages paid in other industries.
        Mr. MARCH: You believe in levelling down?
        Mr. BRUFORD: We were told that we must have Wages Boards. I am perfectly willing to meet my men and to thrash out matters with them, and, considering that I have men on my farm who have been there up to 40 years and that I very seldom change a man, I think I may claim that. I generally manage to get on with my men. Any hon. Member can come down to my farm, and he will find that the men have good wages. But it is no good forcing Wages Boards on an industry that

        2421
        cannot afford to pay the wages that the boards may suggest. It was said just now that when the Wages Boards were instituted during the War the conditions of the labourers were very different from what they are to-day. So were the conditions of everybody. During the War everyone was making money. Farmers were making money in those days, and they were hounded down for doing so. I would like to know who was not making money then?
        Mr. T. JOHNSTON: The twelve millions of people who, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman said, were perpetually on the verge of starvation in this country.
        Mr. RILEY: The five million men in France, who had only 1s. 6d. a day.
        Mr. BRUFORD: My men received fair wages before the War and were not raised by the Wages Board for some time. Those wages went up afterwards by the orders of the Wages Board. I do not know that my men were better off during the War than they are to-day. I think in all probability they are just as well off to-day as during the War without any Wages Board at all. I feel sure that in the majority of eases—I know there are some bad employers—farmers are paying their men more than they can afford. Therefore it is useless to set up Wages Boards under present conditions. The hon. Member for Burslem quoted a catalogue issued by Messrs Knight, Frank and Rutley, in which reference was made to the value of land. But the price of land referred to there was the price 18 months ago. Since then land has been going down and not going up as stated, and the land described in that catalogue was mainly grass and dairy land well situated. That land has not depreciated very much and will not so long as men are making big fortunes and retiring with the idea that they are going to take up a nice easy life by buying a little grass farm well situated near a town. They drive the farmer out and they buy the land, and they do not care what they pay for it, whether it is the economic value or not.
        That is what is keeping up the value of land to-day. If men who have experience in agriculture were the only competitors for it, that land to-day would not fetch anything like the price it is bringing. The long prices paid by farmers for their
        2422
        land during the War was occasioned by that kind of man, who came down and competed against the farmer. I ask any hon. Member opposite what he would do if he were in the position of being turned out of his business and out of his home where he had lived for many years and if he could not get any other kind of business? He would have to pay the price asked for it, whatever that price was. The hon. Member I have just quoted talked about the unremunerative duties of landlordism. The landlords who had any common sense and had no feeling for his tenants have sold their farms because they could make more money by investing otherwise. The landlord who is letting his farm to-day at an uneconomic rent is a philanthropist of the first water. We were told just now that the Minister of Agriculture was forcing his opinions on certain sections of the agricultural industry. I am very glad that he is able to do that, for I was not aware of it.
        I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford that agriculture is the Cinderella of industry. It is the oldest industry in the World. [HON. MEMBERS "No! "] Perhaps agriculture is riot the oldest industry. Dressmaking and tailoring may have been the oldest. [Laughter.] It is a matter of opinion. But we will say agriculture is a very old industry. Why should it be the Cinderella? Why should the Minister of Agriculture be the junior Minister in the Cabinet? Why should he not be placed on the level of others and be paid the same salary as the other Ministers in the Cabinet? If that were i done, we would get a Minister of Agriculture who would learn his job. [Laud laughter.] [HON. MEMBERS: "Back to the land! "] The present Minister of Agriculture started to learn his job many years ago and he is still learning it. We are all learning. What I was going to say was that the Minister of Agriculture would learn his job and stick to it. To-day he goes to the Ministry of Agriculture. He begins to get hold of the work and then he is given promotion, and we have to start all over again with another man. I do say our Minister of Agriculture should be put on the same footing as other Ministers and then he would stick to his job.
        Major-General Sir R. HUTCHISON: I would like to intervene for a moment in this Debate because, although I am

        2423
        a simple soldier, I have been engaged a great part of my life in agriculture and I think my people have tilled the soil for generations. During the last three years I have been engaged in managing and running a farm over in Germany. The connection between agriculture abroad and agriculture at home has struck me very forcibly. First of all I should like to associate myself with my hon. Friend for Mitcham (Mr. Ede) who has spoken of the care that should be given to ex-service men who have been placed on the land since 1919. A great many of these men I know, and they have taken over propositions which have been put before them at prices far beyond what they economically can yield. During the political pressure on the Board of Agriculture in 1919 and early in 1920, schemes were rushed through to buy land in all directions in order to settle these 18,000 or 19,000 men on the land. Buildings were put up at prices far above what they are to-day. I would press most strongly on the Minister that he should take immediate steps to write down and write off the loss on the land and buildings, and allow these men to have a proposition they can live on. I regret that the Debate to-night is so narrow that I cannot refer to affairs north of the Border, but in regard to England I know that a great many of these men are suffering, not only from having to pay a rent that is far too high, but they are suffering from the uncertainty of their position. They have borrowed money in order to move into their holdings, and a great many of them are not sure whether they will not have to pay large arrears of rent which have accumulated during the last two years. I beg the Minister to arrange with the Treasury to write off the sum that is necessary in order to give these men a real start on the land. After all, many of these men came, with great courage, to settle on the land without much knowledge. During the last few years they have acquired a certain amount of knowledge of their holdings; they are now really becoming good agricultural citizens, and, therefore, they are of value to the community. I hope the Minister will stretch his powers to the utmost limit in trying to give them a better chance.
        With regard to the Allotments Act, I think the Minister's influence might be
        2424
        more actively used towards helping town councils in applying that Act to their areas. I can see perfectly well that the real future of small holdings lies in allowing our industrial population to work allotments of a fair size within reasonable reach of the homes from which they carry out their ordinary work. With the curtailed hours of work in this country they have a good deal of spare time in which to cultivate the land. We should also arrange to give suitable communication from their homes to the land, and there is no reason why this Act should not be made a real boon and blessing to the industrial community. It must be remembered that many of the members of town councils in industrial areas are business men, tradesmen and shopkeepers, who are not acquainted with agriculture. They require help and direction from the Ministry to show them how they can successfully apply this Act. I hope the Minister will use his influence in the coming year to direct attention to this very excellent Act, and. I am sure it will be for the benefit of the industrial community. With regard to the question of sugar-beet, I am delighted to hear that the production of sugar is going ahead and is being successfully carried out, but I think a great deal more could he done in this direction. It is a crop which, abroad, gives a great deal of work to a great number of people, and it is just the type of crop which we can use in this country. It gives us the sugar which we so much require, and, in addition, by not extracting the full quantity of sugar from the beet, a very good feeding material for cattle can be afterwards provided. The Minister should consider encouraging the raising of sugar in the districts where cattle are raised. In Germany, where I have studied the question, the farmers tell me that sugar-beet raising and the breeding of cattle go very well together. They send in the sugar-beet to the sucrerie from which is returned the pulp, which contains a certain amount of sugar. This is used for the cattle, and in this manner the farmer is able to get a double return for his efforts on the land. This is a matter which should be examined, and I hope the Minister will give it consideration.
        The right hon. Gentleman in his opening speech referred to diseases of animals

        2425
        especially foot-and-mouth disease, and we know that not very long ago we had a very serious outbreak. From inquiries I have made into the application of various preventives of foot-and-mouth disease abroad, I find a great discrepancy between what has been done in this country and what has been done on the Continent in that respect. It was largely in Germany that my studies of the subject were made, and from a professor of agriculture in Bonn University I learn that this disease has been treated successfully on farms there without the slaughtering of animals. I am satisfied that there is a system of dealing with foot-and-mouth disease over in Germany which is well worthy of our study. I find, from talking to agriculturists in the north, that a good many of them are convinced that the action of the Ministry of Agriculture in slaughtering so many animals on account of this disease was wrong. Whether that is so or not is for the experts to decide, but I would like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that this disease does exist from period to period abroad, and that it has not bean found necessary there to slaughter the cattle in order to remove it. I am delighted that the blood-stock stud farm has been showing such excellent results, and I hope it will long continue to do so. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us if he has any useful two-year-olds coming along.
        With regard to his remarks about the cereal crops, of which he gave such a despondent view, I quite agree with all that he has said, to the effect that the wheat crop is unfortunately a bad crop from an economic point of view. The cost of labour, which is as much very often as £10 an acre, leaves no return when you are selling wheat, as you are to-day, at 43s. and 44s. a quarter, but, in regard to barley, I think a great deal can be done by the Minister if he will only direct the attention of the Government to its use. He remarked that the penny a pint off beer had been decided upon because it would stimulate, he hoped, the use of barley, but may I say that what would stimulate the use of barley much more would be the introduction by the Government of a Pure Beer Bill. Let them make beer of hops and barley, and nothing else. Why should we have to use maize and sugar and stuff to make beer with, when we have got at hand hops and malt? I hope
        2426
        I am not stepping beyond the narrow limits of the Debate in calling attention to that point.
        Lastly, in regard to food production generally, we have gone through the late War, and we have suffered the fear of starvation. There is no doubt about it, that when the Germans came along with the menace of the submarine, we really thought we were going to starve. In future wars, it is bound to happen that the first attack that an enemy will make against this country will not be against our various arms, but against our food supply, and with more efficient action by submarines and in the air I am satisfied that our food will run short unless we take action to prevent such a calamity There is one crop that will save us from starvation, and that is the potato crop. We have had in the last year a surplus of potatoes, a surplus which, I believe, has been put down at something like 1,000,000 tons, and notwithstanding the very large feeding of cattle with potatoes owing to their being practically unsaleable, there still remains a very large surplus of potatoes. I suggest to the Minister of Agriculture that he should stimulate the surplus, that he should continue each year to stimulate a surplus by guaranteeing a definite price for potatoes. That can be economically carried out, because there is no doubt that the potato crop is the one crop that can give us safety in our food supply. If the Minister will only use his great influence with the Government, I am satisfied that he can, by guaranteeing a price for a surplus of potatoes, turn those potatoes into spirit, through the various distilleries, and keep just that supply that is required by the nation, which will not object to paying the ordinary market price which is required to keep it in fine with the guaranteed price. Other countries have done this. Germany has done it, and before the War Germany actually—
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): I am afraid this is not in order on this Debate.
        Sir R. HUTCHISON: I regret my inexperience of the Rules of the House, and I regret the narrow limits of the Debate, but I will say this in conclusion, that if the Minister will only do all he can to

        2427
        direct his attention to the subject I have mentioned, he will do a great thing for agriculture in this country.
        Mr. T. SMITH: I want to join in the many appeals which have been made that something should be done for the smallholder. In my constituency there are ex-service men settled on the land, and scarcely a week passes that I do not get letters showing the terrible plight they are in. I know the question of rent is under the consideration of the Agricultural Committee, and I want to urge upon the Minister that when these recommendations come before Department, he will lose no time in carrying them out. One of the most pitiful sights I have seen in my constituency is a man suffering from tubercular disease, a smallholder who is worried on account of his financial position, and, whatever be the financial position of these smallholders, these men are not to blame. They were promised that they would be put on the land, and they are doing their best under most difficult and trying conditions. I join most heartily with other hon. Members in urging that the Minister should wipe out these losses, and give these men a fair chance of making their holdings pay. Throughout the Debate to-day one thing has been missed, and that. is the failure of the conciliation committees. I can quite imagine some Members of the late Government sitting quiet when agriculture is discussed, because I regard the repeal of Part 1 of the Corn Production Act as one of the most brutal betrayals of any industry, and these conciliation committees are nothing more or less than an absolute farce. I know the Minister himself is a little bit concerned with these committees, because I hold in my hand a letter which was sent by his Department to the chairman, members and secretaries of Conciliation Committees, in which he expresses anxiety as regards the composition of those committees. I would like him to tell the committee how many agreements have been ratified as a result of this letter, and is it not a fact, so far as the workers' representatives are concerned, that they are absolutely sick with the conciliation committees? I know we cannot discuss on this Motion matters which need legislation, but I want to say that, when the opportunity
        2428
        presents itself, we on these benches will suggest that the best thing that can happen to the agricultural labourer is the restoration of the Agricultural Wages Board and a national minimum wage. One regrets we cannot very well discuss that. at this late hour.
        There is one other point. I think there is a chance for the Minister of Agriculture not only to make history, but to make himself secure in his own constituency. He told us that the National Stud had won a good number of races, and that one of the horses had won the Lincoln handicap. As one who very rarely backs a horse, but who has a sporting section in his constituency, I should like to say that if the Minister of Agriculture could circulate a few days before. the races some good information, not only would he make his position secure in the industry, but if he would circulate some of that information to some of our constituents I am satisfied that it would be all right. I just want to say to the two hon. Members who suggested that the Members on these benches should visit their locality and study agriculture, that some of us who represent constituencies where there is a large agricultural population, that we are quite prepared to say here that we are rot agricultural experts, but that we are willing to learn. If we can by an interchange of information get a better grasp of agricultural problems we shall be very pleased to do it. I would say that when our two Friends arrange for the deputation of Labour Members to go down to their localities that they could make the week-ends a little bit more interesting if they would only arrange for a bit of shooting—to make our visit worth while. Variety is the spice of life, and I think we shall be able to find sufficient time in it all to have a look at their good houses.
        May I, however, in all seriousness, say this: It may be quite true that in their localities the agricultural labourer has got decent dwellings. We do not, on these benches, deny for one moment that there are good employers who look after their employés, but. we on this side want to see the men living in houses which are not tied to the employer. If some have got good houses, we know districts and localities where the housing conditions of the agricultural labourer are a disgrace to the country. I throw out the suggestion that when we have visited the

        2429
        good side we should take hon. Members, if they will go with us, to see the bad side. After all, when we go to see these things let us see them at their worst, and not at their best. I remember a time when a certain Minister visited a certain place in my constituency, or close to it, and the thing was got ready for him. There is nothing like seeing the thing as it is in its normal state. I trust I have not delayed the House. I have sat here since a quarter to three o'clock waiting for the opportunity to put in a few words of hope for the smallholders in my constituency. Every time I go into the district I feel that these men are up against a very tough proposition. They are doing their best under very difficult circumstances, and I do urge upon the Minister and the Government that something should be done for these men in order that they may get a decent existence for the work they are putting in.
        Sir R. SANDERS: Before I come to the various matters which have been alluded to, I am sure the Committee will be glad to hear that I have had a message on the subject of the Norfolk strike. I am happy to say that, subject to ratification on Saturday, terms of settlement have been agreed to by both sides. The terms are a wage of 25s. for a guaranteed 50 hours week; any hours worked in excess of 50 to be paid for at 6d. per hour up to four hours per week, and above four hours at overtime rates; the hours to be so arranged as to secure a weekly half holiday; there is to be no victimisation.
        I am very glad to be able to announce that agreement looks like having been come to. I sincerely hope that on Saturday it will be ratified, and I am sure that that is the hope of every member of the Committee. I ought to say that our congratulations are due to Mr. Harry Gosling and Mr. German, who acted in this matter with discretion in negotiating with the parties, and we are thankful that they have succeeded in bringing about a settlement. We have had an interesting and an amusing debate. I was gratified to be told by the hon. Member who represents me in this House (Mr. Bruford) that he hopes I am going to learn my job. We were also amused by the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. T. Smith), and. I am sure if he honours any of us
        2430
        with a visit we shall be glad to see him, and although we may be able to give him a tip for a race, I think it will be rather hard for us to find him any shooting in April.
        The main subject dealt with by most hon. Members is that of the ex-service men settled on the land. I am sure that is a subject that appeals to everyone of us, because by an unanimous Act of this House arrangements to deal with them were made under the Land Settlement Act. As a matter of fact I do not think that Bill was opposed in the House of Commons. I quite realise, and I am sure my Department realises, that Parliament, having passed that Act, we are under a certain obligation to see that these men are not let down. As far as it is reasonably possible we do deal sympathetically with them. I would point out, however, that the recommendations must come from the county councils, and when we do get those recommendations I can assure the House that they are always sympathetically considered. I do not think it would be a good thing now to go into the individual instances which have been raised, but I may mention that in the case of Sutton Bridge, only yesterday I agreed to a considerable reduction being made in the rents of those small holdings.
        Another hon. Member raised the question of the old Small Holdings Act. I think I stated in answer to a question that where a County Council can put forward a scheme for Small Holdings on the old basis of an economic rent it would be favourably considered for confirmation by the Ministry. I do not think either the House or the country desires that we should go on creating new small holdings on uneconomic terms because we are not justified in spending large sums of money in establishing men on the land who really cannot afford it. It is for the county council, on economic terms, to satisfy the demands of men who apply for small holdings, and who are competent to work them, and certainly such applications will be favourably considered by the Ministry. The hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Ede) raised two or three points on which I ought to say a word. The first was with regard to the education scheme to which I referred earlier in the afternoon. The hon. Member asked that the education scheme should be extended to various people. The whole object of it, however,

        2431
        is that it should be for the children of agricultural labourers, and, having instituted a scheme specially for their benefit, I do not think it would be right or fair to extend it to another class. After all, the agricultural labourer is not a man who gets a very great deal done for him, and, when it is possible to institute a scheme specially for his benefit, I do not think any of those in another class need grudge it to him.
        Mr. EDE: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but there are certain Clauses and Regulations that specifically apply to the children of smallholders, as distinct from agricultural labourers, and those were the Clauses to which I was alluding.
        Sir R. SANDERS: The hon. Member wished the money terms to be raised. He really wanted it to be for richer men than those whose cases it is designed to meet, hut our object in this particular scheme is that it should be for poor men. The hon. Member also raised the question of payment of the travelling expenses of members of agricultural committees. The county council may pay them. There is nothing whatever to stop any county council paying them if it thinks it worth while to do so, but the Ministry is not inclined any longer to bear that expense, which might justly fall upon the county council if they are ready to incur it. With regard to the charge that the hon. Member made against the Surrey County Council, if he will give me full particulars I certainly shall be glad to go into it and ask the Surrey County Council what explanation they can give. Another question that the hon. Member raised was with regard to loans to smallholders. On that, again, we wish to deal sympathetically with the smallholders, and I can assure the hon. Member that we are not pressing unduly for payment in any case. I think I have now dealt with all the points that have been raised.
        Mr. HOPE SIMPSON: I regret that I have not had the chance to ask one or two questions of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, but perhaps the opportunity will offer when the general Debate comes along. With regard to education, I join in the request that has been made from another quarter of the Committee on behalf of those who
        2432
        are a little higher in the social scale than the agricultural labourer. There are very many small farmers, farming 80 or 100 acres, who are not in a financial position to educate their children as one would wish to see them educated, and if the Ministry could arrange for an educational scheme for the smaller farmers, as they have done for the agricultural workmen, it would be all to the good.
        There are one two points with regard to research. One is glad to see the large provision for research. The increase is practically entirely due to the grant from the Development Fund in consequence of the repeal of the Corn Production Acts. With that exception I do not think there is any increase. in the amount which has been allotted. There was one point on which perhaps the right hon. Gentleman might enlighten us even now, and that is with regard to the grant for the Cattle Pleuropneumonia Account. If ho explained that before, I did not catch what he said. Last year the grant was £101,000. and this year it has been omitted altogether. I do not know the reason for that, and I should be glad to hear it if he will let us know.
        It is almost impossible to isolate the effect of the sudden fall in prices from the effect of the seasons, and from a survey of the conditions of the cereal-growing countries of the world, one is perhaps entitled to hope that the climatic conditions of the last two years have had a good deal to do with the position of the farmer. If one looks to Australia one finds that for the last six years the average profit on wheat-growing lands has only been 4s. l½d. an acre, and had it not been for the fact that the New South Wales Government in 1920–21 guaranteed a price of 6s. 6d. a bushel, there would have been an actual loss for the six years on all the wheat-growing areas in New South Wales. The same has been the case in the last year or two in Canada. I have here a Report on the financial, industrial and commercial conditions of Canada, prepared by the senior Trade Commissioner for Canada and Newfoundland. In it he writes:
        " The bankers, mortgage companies and wholesale and retail dealers agreed that the operations of the Western farmers during 1921 left them without a surplus."
        The Western portions of Canada are the portions where the great wheat crops are

        2433
        grown, so that evidently there also the farmers have been suffering from depression. The same again may be found if one refers to the Argentine Republic. I have here the Report of the Commercial Secretary to the Legation at Buenos Ayres. He writes:
        " Farmers were unwilling to sell at current prices, but the Press, and even official propaganda, had led them to believe that European requirements must cause a rise in the value of their products. The export trade was dull in consequence and involved loss to the shippers while the end of the year found the country harvesting the new crop with an exportable surplus of fully 800,000 tons of the previous year's crop still not disposed of."
        Front this it appears that the symptoms that we see in this country are really world wide, and it may be hoped that a condition like that cannot last long, and that, perhaps, we are overdepressed with the condition of agriculture at present.
        There is one remarkable thing. We have frequently had it suggested that our methods in England are very inferior, and that we might grow much bigger crops than we do. I have found out the returns in the three countries I have mentioned. In New South Wales, during the last six years, the average yield of wheat has been just under 11 bushels to the acre. In Canada last year it was 13½bushels, and in the Argentine, 11 bushels. In England we reckon on getting 32 bushels, so I do not think we can criticise the British farmer with regard to the skill and care he applies to his work. It is true that there are certain countries in Northern Europe, where the areas are very small, and the cultivation more approximates to market gardening. There, in one, or perhaps two, you get a yield slightly in excess of the British yield, but, with that exception, I think the British yield is the largest commercial yield in the world.
        It is a somewhat melancholy reflection that we should look for prosperity of the agricultural community from the squalor and misery which is entailed by an increase in the consumption of liquor. I object entirely to this. attempt to bolster up agriculture at the expense of the decency and the comfort of the urban population. It seems to me a rather shameful thing that we should hope that the British farmer will succeed because the British workman consumes more beer.
        2434
        When one reads the communications of the Hop Controller it gives rise to a feeling of shame to think that a Department of the British Government can hope for an increase in the consumption of intoxicating liquor in order that the farmer shall have prosperity. It seems to me that if we have to choose between a decrease in the consumption of intoxicating liquor and the prosperity of the farmer I should rather choose that the intoxicating liquor should be reduced than that the farmer should prosper by that means. At the same time, I think, with the measures which we have taken, with the reduction in rating that we are promised, with the reduction in rural rates, and with the extension of facilities for credit, it will not be long before farming is once more in a prosperous condition.
        Mr. GOSLING: I wish to say one word in regard to the settlement. of the dispute in Norfolk. This has been the third occasion on which an attempt has been made to settle the dispute in the agricultural world, and the Minister of Agriculture was good enough to mention the name of Mr. German and myself in connection with it. I feel that what has happened to-day is due to what was done yesterday. Last Thursday we failed. Through the intervention of the Leader of the Labour party we got the parties together again, and I am pleased to say that success has already been recorded. Speaking on behalf of the men, we do not regard it as a very great thing to have succeeded in getting 25s., but. we feel that it would have been a danger to have allowed the dispute to go on any longer. I do not know anything about agriculture myself, but one could see, at a moment's glance, that it was necessary, if the season was to be saved, that the workers should resume. That is the spirit, I think, which has helped both sides in coming to a conclusion.
        I hope, although I feel sure that the agreement will be carried out loyally by the men, that they will not have to carry it out very long. I hope we shall very soon get some way beyond the 25s. I should be ashamed of myself if I often had to make this kind of agreement. I think the House, the community and the men are very much indebted to the Minister of Agriculture for the help he gave in starting negotiations, arid I am

        2435
        pleased that I have been associated with them.
        Captain TERRELL: The majority of hon. Members deeply regret—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide! "]—the deplorable action of a certain section of the Committee this afternoon. Why they held up the Debate is a little uncertain, but it is to be noted that since they obstructed they have disappeared from the Committee. It is all the more regrettable—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide! "]
        Mr. PRETYMAN: On a point of Order. I should like to say that I do not think it would be wise for us to part with this Vote now. If we allow the Vote to be taken; there will be no other opportunity of raising any matter during the rest of the Session. There is no hostility to the Minister in not taking the Vote to-night. It is quite usual to carry over the Vote, and if it is not necessary to discuss agriculture again, the matter can come at the end of the Session with all the other Votes. If it is necessary to take the Vote again we want the opportunity of doing so.
        Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a fact that we have the Report stage of this Vote, and that we can also raise questions on the Vote for the Minister's salary?
        Mr. THOMAS: Are these points of Order?
        The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Neither is a point of Order.
        Captain TERRELL: It is the more regrettable in view of the fact that we were to have had an important statement from the Minister as to the intentions of the Government in connection with this basic industry. I am given to understand that he is going to make an announcement to-morrow, and I am sure the whole agri-
        cultural industry will await that announcement full of expectation. One of the hon. Members who adorn the benches occupied by the Labour party referred to betting. Hon. Members will be very glad to hear that at least one member of that party was in favour of betting. He asked the Minister of Agriculture to give him a tip, if he wanted a tip, at a. future date.
        Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN rose in iris place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put," but the Deputy-Chairman withheld his assent, and declined, then, to put that Question.
        Captain TERRELL: It may not be wise to give tips. I have had many tips given to me by electors, but never have I had a tip given to me which has been a successful one.
        Mr. THOMAS rose place, and claimed to move, "That. the Question be now put," but the Deputy-Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
        Captain TERRELL: The Minister told us that 18.960 ex-service men had been settled on the land. He also told us of the very gallant fight the ex-service men had made in order to make a success of their small holdings, and that only 6'5 per cent. had fallen out and given up the task. The Minister said that under present conditions it would be impossible—
        Mr. THOMAS rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
        Question put accordingly, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,064,351, he granted for the said Service."
        The Committee divided: Ayes, 121; Noes, 231.

        Division No.101]

        AYES.

        [11.0 p.m.

        Adams, D.

        Burgess, S.

        Dunnico, H.

        Adamson, W. U. (Staff., Cannock)

        Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

        Ede, James Chuter

        Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

        Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

        Entwistle, Major C. F.

        Batey, Joseph

        Cairns, John

        Foot, Isaac

        Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

        Chapman, Sir S

        Gosling, Harry

        Berkeley, Captain Reginald

        Charleton, H. C

        Graham, 0. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

        Bowdler, W. A.

        Clarke, Sir E. C.

        Gray, Frank (Oxford)

        Broad, F. A.

        Collins, Pat (Walsall)

        Greenall, T.

        Bromfield William

        Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

        Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

        Brotherion, J.

        Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

        Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

        Buchanan, G.

        Duffy, T. Gavan

        Groves, T.

        Buckle, J

        Duncan, C.

        Grundy, T. W.

        Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

        March, S.

        Smith, T. (Pontefract)

        Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

        Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

        Snell, Harry

        Harbord, Arthur

        Maxton, James

        Spencer, H. H. (Bradford. S.)

        Hardie, George D.

        Middleton, G.

        Stephen, Campbell

        Harney, E. A.

        Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

        Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

        Hartshorn, Vernon

        Murnin, H.

        Sullivan, J.

        Hastings, Patrick

        Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

        Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

        Hayes, John Henry [Edge Hill)

        Newbold, J. T. W.

        Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

        Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

        Nichol, Robert

        Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

        Herriotts, J.

        O'Grady, Captain James

        Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

        Hill, A.

        Paling, W.

        Warne, G. H.

        Hinds, John

        Parker, H. (Hanley)

        Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

        Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

        Phillipps, Vivian

        Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

        Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

        Ponsonby, Arthur

        Webb, Sidney

        Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

        Potts, John S.

        Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

        Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly)

        Pringle, W. M. R.

        Welsh, J. C.

        Jones R. T. (Carnarvon)

        Richards, R

        Whiteley, W.

        Jones T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

        Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

        Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

        Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

        Riley, Ben

        Williams. Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

        Jewitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

        Ritson, J.

        Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

        Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

        Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

        Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

        Kirkwood, D.

        Royce, William Stapleton

        Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

        Lansbury, George

        Salter, Dr. A.

        Wintringham, Margaret

        Lawson, John James

        Scrymgeour, E.

        Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

        Leach. W.

        Sexton, James

        Wright, W.

        Lee, F.

        Shinwell, Emanuel

        Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

        Lowth, T.

        Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

        MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

        Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

        M'Entee, V. L.

        Simpson, J. Hope

        Mr. Lunn and Mr. Ammon.

        McLaren, Andrew

        NOES.

        Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

        Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

        Hiley, Sir Ernest

        Ainsworth, Captain Charles

        Cope, Major William

        Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C.

        Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

        Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

        Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

        Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

        Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

        Hoh er, Gerald Fitzroy

        Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

        Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

        Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

        Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

        Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

        Hood, Sir Joseph

        Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

        Curzon, Captain Viscount

        Hopkins, John W. W.

        Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

        Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

        Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

        Balfour, George (Hampstead)

        Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

        Howard-Bury, Lieut. Col. C. K.

        Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

        Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

        Hudson, Capt. A.

        Barnett, Major Richard W.

        Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

        Hughes, Collingwood

        Barnston, Major Harry

        Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

        Hume, G. H.

        Becker, Harry

        Dawson, Sir Philip

        Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

        Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

        Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

        Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

        Bellairs, Commander Car yon W.

        Dudgeon, Major C. R.

        Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

        Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

        Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

        Jarrett, G. W. S.

        Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

        Edmondson, Major A. J.

        Jephcott, A. R.

        Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

        Ednam, Viscount

        Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

        Berry, Sir George

        Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

        Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

        Betterton, Henry B.

        Ellis, R. G.

        Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

        Birchall, Major J. Dearman

        Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

        Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

        Blundell, F. N.

        Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

        Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

        Bonwick, A.

        Erskine-Bolst, Captain C

        King, Captain Henry Douglas

        Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

        Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

        Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

        Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

        Falcon, Captain Michael

        Lamb, J. Q.

        Brass, Captain W.

        Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

        Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

        Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

        Fawkes, Major F. H.

        Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

        Brittain, Sir Harry

        Forestier-Walker, L.

        Lorden, John William

        Brown, Brig. Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

        Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

        Lorimer, H. D.

        Bruford, R.

        Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

        Lort-Williams, J.

        Bruton, Sir James

        Furness, G. J.

        Lougher, L.

        Buckingham, Sir H.

        Galbraith, J. F. W.

        Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

        Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

        Ganzoni, Sir John

        Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

        Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

        Gates, Percy

        McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

        Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

        Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

        Margesson, H. D. R.

        Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

        Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

        Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

        Butcher, Sir John George

        Greenwood, William (Stockport)

        Mason, Lieut.-Col C. K.

        Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

        Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

        Mercer, Colonel H.

        Butt, Sir Alfred

        Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

        Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

        Button, H. S.

        Gwynne, Rupert S.

        Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

        Cadogan, Major Edward

        Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

        Molloy, Major L. G. S.

        Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

        Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

        Molson, Major John Elsdale

        Cassels, J. D.

        Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

        Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

        Cautley, Henry Strother

        Harrison, F. C.

        Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

        Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

        Harvey, Major S. E.

        Morden, Col. W. Grant

        Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

        Hawke, John Anthony

        Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

        Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

        Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

        Murchison, C. K.

        Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

        Henn, Sir Sydney H.

        Nail, Major Joseph

        Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

        Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

        Nesbitt, Robert C.

        Churchman, Sir Arthur

        Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

        Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

        Cobb, Sir Cyril

        Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

        Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

        Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

        Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

        Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

        2438

        2439

        Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

        Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

        Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

        Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

        Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)

        Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

        Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

        Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

        Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

        Nield, Sir Herbert

        Roundell, Colonel R. F.

        Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

        Oman, Sir Charles William C.

        Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

        Titchfield, Marquess of

        Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

        Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

        Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

        Paget, T. G.

        Russell, William (Bolton)

        Tubbs, S. W.

        Parker, Owen (Kettering)

        Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

        Turton, Edmund Russborough

        Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

        Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

        Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

        Pease, William Edwin

        Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

        Wallace, Captain E.

        Pennefather, De Fonblanque

        Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

        Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

        Penny, Frederick George

        Sandon, Lord

        Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

        Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

        Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

        Wells, S. R

        Perring, William George

        Shepperson, E. W.

        Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

        Peto, Basil E.

        Singleton, J. E.

        White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

        Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

        Skelton, A. N.

        White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

        Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

        Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

        Winterton, Earl

        Ra burn, Sir William H.

        Sparkes, H. W.

        Wise, Frederick

        Rankin, Captain James Stuart

        Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

        Wolmer, Viscount

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

        Stanley, Lord

        Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

        Rees, Sir Beddoe

        Steel, Major S. Strang

        Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

        Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

        Stewart, Gershorn (Wirral)

        Yerburgh, R. D. T.

        Reid, D. D. (County Down)

        Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

        Rentoul, G. S.

        Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

        Reynolds, W. G. W.

        Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

        Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel

        Rhodes, Lieut.-Cot. J. P.

        Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

        Gibbs.

        Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

        Question, "That the Question be now nut," put, and agreed to.

        Original Question again proposed.
        It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to farther Proceeding, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
        Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT (1921) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Lieut.-Colonel NALL: I wish to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a point of Order. This Bill was brought in by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Wedgwood Benn) some weeks ago. I want to ask you whether it is in order for it to be put down for Second Reading before it has been printed and circulated to Members. I should like to ask whether the text to the Bill has been handed in at the Table, and, if so, when it will be available for Members?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. and gallant Member say that he brought in the Bill himself?
  Lieut.-Colonel NALL: No, Sir; the Bill was brought in by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith.
  Mr. SPEAKER: There is nothing to prevent the Second Reading being now taken.
  Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Am Ito understand, Sir, that the text of this Bill has
  2440
  not been handed in at. the Table, and is not available for Members?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot say. The hon. Member can find that out at the Vote Office.
  Mr. PRINGLE: On a point of Order. Is it not the case that several Government Bills have been on the Order Paper for Second Reading, and have never been circulated to the House?
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

  BROADCASTING LICENCES.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
  Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: I wish to raise to-night the question of wireless broadcasting. If I had had time I should have liked to have dealt with one or two remarks made under the intoxicating influence of the smell of primroses by the Postmaster-General, but I have not time. However, I must deal with broadcasting licences. There are two forms of licence issued today. One is to the experimenter, and the other to what is called the broadcast licensee. He is a man who it not meant to know anything about wireless, but is one who buys an instrument and turns it on to receive the broadcasting from London. The other man, the experimenter, is given a licence to use whatever apparatus he likes, the chief advantage of which is the employment of what is called

  2441
  reaction. I must speak of reaction in this connection, but I hope the Postmaster-General will not think that I am in any way personal. It may be described as a sort of "boosting" of a very feeble incoming current—rather like the Attorney-General in that respect. It should be understood that if reaction is employed by come one who does not understand his apparatus, the receiving instrument becomes a generating station, and the moment it does so, it upsets everybody else in the locality who is trying to listen in.
  The Postmaster-General is faced with this position, that there are many people in the country who can make and who do make their own sets. It is a very easy thing to make. A crystal and a hairpin are about all you require. Owing to the Regulations,. the people who have made these sets have been forced into the position of breaking the law, because, first of all, they are. not allowed to get an experimenter's licence, nor are they doing right in using the receiving set they have themselves made, in that it does not conform to the broadcasting standard. Consequently, the position is that many people who do not want to break the law have been forced to do so. The Postmaster-General and the Broadcasting Company are having a dispute as to what shall be done with these people, and sec in the papers that the Postmaster-General threatens to issue to everybody who makes his own crystal set an experimenter's licence. I hope, before he does so, he will consider what he is doing, because if to-day we are to have 100,000 people with reaction, abusing it as they would—because many of them are inexperienced—I cannot imagine what chaos is going to take place in the ether. I quite agree that neither licence is necessary, but whatever licence he is going to give these people who make their own sets, I hope he will be firm in seeing that reaction is not going to be allowed to everybody and anybody throughout the whole country. If he issues licences and allows reaction to everybody, however inexperienced, the whole of broadcasting will fall to pieces as an education and an amusement to the people of the country. Already it is clumsy enough in the hands of experienced people, but if it is going to be given to all inexperienced people the
  2442
  whole of broadcasting will fall to the ground and fail.
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): In a very few minutes I shall try to explain the dispute which has arisen in this matter, and I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for having given me the opportunity. The position is, as he stated, that there are at present two licences, and two only, which the Postmaster-General can issue. That is under the agreement made by my predecessor, Mr. Kellaway, and signed on 18th January, 1923, with the company known as the British Broadcasting Company, that they should have a licence for broadcasting throughout the country. I should here put in a caveat by saying that I am not at all certain that agreement with the company gives them a monopoly licence for broadcasting. I am not at all sure whether it is not open to myself to grant a licence, if I so desire, to somebody else. I mention that as a warning at the moment, but under the agreement which was made by my predecessor, Mr. Kellaway, I can only grant a broadcasting licence, to anybody who wishes it, clogged with the proviso that he must use for receiving broadcasting a particular form of instrument marked "B.B.C." by the British Broadcasting Company. It is open to me, also under certain conditions, to grant an experimental licence in regard to which there is no clogging condition. Both licences are issued at a fee of 10s., of which 5s. is by agreement given to the Broadcasting Company, in order to enable them to keep up their broadcasting concerts, etc.
  I am not sure whether the House, if they realised fully what is being done, would consider that it was in accordance with public policy that we should collect what are in effect compulsory taxes for the purpose of giving half of them to broadcasting companies.
  Sir WILLIAM BULL: It was the Government's suggestion.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It was the result of numerous negotiations between the Broadcasting Company and the then Postmaster-General. The agreement, of course, is binding upon myself; that is clear; and I cannot issue any other licence at all, to enable the home con-

  2443
  structer who is not an experimenter to construct his machine, without the assent of the Broadcasting Company. Negotiations have taken place between them and myself, and at first they offered to allow me to issue a licence to what I may call the home constructor, without. the clog upon it that the instruments used should be British Broadcasting instruments, if I would make the licence fee 20s., and give them 15s. out of that.
  That I declined at once. I said that I was willing to grant this licence at a fee of 10s., of which half would go to the company, provided only that the parts to be used by the holder of the licence should be made in this country. There are an enormous number of foreign parts made in Austria and France under the present depreciated currency, and there is undoubtedly the possibility of our market being flooded with them.
  Doubtless the whole House may not agree with me in that position, but the point of dispute between us is not a question of protection against foreign manufacturers, but that the particular manufacturers who have formed the Broadcasting Company claim the right to prevent any other manufacturer in Great Britain many factoring broadcasting materials in this country. I have told them quite definitely that I cannot possibly be a party to extending that. Under the agreement as it stands to-day I am bound in regard to all broadcasting sets as a whole. They must be marked by the "B.B.C." mark, and that is final, so far as T am concerned. With regard to receiving licences, I think I ought to give the House some figures. There have already been issued, of broadcasting licences, 87,561.
  Mr. G. BALFOUR: Is it a fact that any manufacturer, by subscribing £1 in shares, can manufacture and sell his instruments?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is true. Any manufacturer who chooses to join the British Broadcasting Company, for £1, can get. within the combine, and have his materials marked, but. I am not going to be a party to compelling any British manufacturer to join any particular combine. There have been issued 35,385 experimental licences, and there
  2444
  are to-day awaiting issue 33,000 applicants for experimental licences. Those have been held up, first by the action of my predecessor, since January last, and by myself, because of the opposition—I can quite understand the legitimate opposition—of the British Broadcasting Company. I have, therefore, taken the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown on this matter, and they have advised me to-day that before I can issue an experimental licence I must be satisfied that the object of the experimental licence holder is an experiment with wireless telegraphy, but, if I am so satisfied—in the opinion of the Law Officers T must be the judge—I not only can issue a licence, but I am bound to do so; I have no option in the matter. That being the case, I propose to send these 33,000 applications to some experts on my staff to-morrow morning, and require them to make a thorough investigation and to advise which, in their opinion, are honestly experimental. They will be submitted to me and an experimental licence will be issued.
  With regard to the other side of the question, I am exceedingly sorry that there should be this dispute between the Postmaster-General and the Broadcasting Company, but I am prepared to make one further effort at least, because there are, in my view, an enormous number of people—probably early half a million—who are prepared to take licences if they can get the licence they want. The British Broadcasting people tell my staff that there are 200,000 infringers at the present time working with no licence because they cannot get; the licence they want. I want to give them a licence and charge them 10s., and give 5s. to the Broadcasting Company.
  I therefore propose at once to institute the strongest Committee I can get in order to consider the whole question of broadcasting—not merely the question of licence, but the desirability of existing contracts and the questions that have arisen on contracts—if I can get members to serve. I propose that there shall be three or four Members of this House and two or three members of my expert staff, and I propose also to ask the Radio Society of Great Britain the great scientific body dealing with wireless, and I think it only fair to ask the British Broadcasting Company themselves, to suggest someone to me to go on that Com-

  2445
  mittee. I hope they will accept that offer. I hope that they will be willing to put the whole of their case before the Committee, which will be as fully representative and as strong as I can make it, and I hope that by that means we shall be able to solve one of the most difficult problems that has ever come before me. I can assure the House I have devoted days, and almost nights, to try to find a solution, fair on the one side, and without inflicting, what I do not want to inflict, a real monopoly against the would-be manufacturers in this country.
  Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: The House must. have been somewhat amazed at the statement to which we have just listened, that such a contract should exist, that such commitments should have been made, and that such an absolute deadlock should have been created. I welcome very heartily the statement of the right hon. Gentleman because it does show that the present Postmaster-General is more alive to the situation than the predecessor that effected this agreement. Surely, however, this subject. is one that ought to be far more thoroughly discussed in this House! I agree to the suggestion about the Com-
  2446
  mittee, but that is not enough. This House ought to have the matter brought before it at the very earliest opportunity so that the whole thing may be thoroughly thrashed out.
  Sir W. BULL: And I hope the House will suspend its judgment until it has heard the case. of the British Broadcasting Company.
  Captain BERKELEY: I should just like to put it to the Postmaster-General that this is a case that should conic under Standing Order 72, as a matter which the House ought to discuss, because it clearly involves telegraphic communication overseas. We know quite well that at the present moment the great Atlantic liners can pick up and transmit the concerts, messages, etc., and therefore I think the matter should come under the Standing Order.
  Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: I should just like to say—
  It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER, adjourned the House, without Question. put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'Clock.

EDUCATION.
  SCHOOL CAMP, HENLEY FORT.
  SCHOOL CAMP, HENLEY FORT.
  HEAD TEACHERS.
  HEAD TEACHERS.
  SPECIAL SCHOOLS.
  SPECIAL SCHOOLS.
  ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICE PENSIONS.
  ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICE PENSIONS.
  SECONDARY SCHOOLS.
  SECONDARY SCHOOLS.
  TOTTENHAM SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION.
  TOTTENHAM SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION.
  MENTALLY DEFECTIVE CHILDREN (ACCOMMODATION).
  MENTALLY DEFECTIVE CHILDREN (ACCOMMODATION).
  UNFIT BUILDINGS.
  UNFIT BUILDINGS.
  OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES(GRANTS).
  OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES(GRANTS).
  COUNTY COURT OFFICERS.
  COUNTY COURT OFFICERS.
  FIFE COUNTY COUNCIL (LOAN INTEREST).
  FIFE COUNTY COUNCIL (LOAN INTEREST).
BUDGET.
  DOG LICENCE DUTIES.
  DOG LICENCE DUTIES.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
  ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
  ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
  CIDER AND PERRY DUTY.
  CIDER AND PERRY DUTY.
  SUGAR AND TEA DUTIES.
  SUGAR AND TEA DUTIES.
  INCOME TAX (FARMERS' RELIEF CLAIMS).
  INCOME TAX (FARMERS' RELIEF CLAIMS).
  LAND TAX.
  LAND TAX.
  BEER DUTY.
  BEER DUTY.
  IMPORT DUTIES (MANUFACTURED ARTICLES).
  IMPORT DUTIES (MANUFACTURED ARTICLES).
  DIRECT AND INDIRECT TAXATION.
  DIRECT AND INDIRECT TAXATION.
  GENERAL ELECTION (RETURNING OFFICERS' REMUNERATION).
  GENERAL ELECTION (RETURNING OFFICERS' REMUNERATION).
  GOVERNMENT SECURITIES (HOLDERS RESIDENT ABROAD).
  GOVERNMENT SECURITIES (HOLDERS RESIDENT ABROAD).
  PUBLIC PROPERTY (GIFTS).
  PUBLIC PROPERTY (GIFTS).
  SIA (BRITISH LOANS).
  SIA (BRITISH LOANS).
  AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH BANK.
  AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH BANK.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  AIR MINISTRY (WOMEN).
  AIR MINISTRY (WOMEN).
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (ACTON OFFICE).
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (ACTON OFFICE).
  WOMEN.
  WOMEN.
  BONUS
  BONUS
  BRITISH MUSEUM (COMMISSIONAIRES).
  BRITISH MUSEUM (COMMISSIONAIRES).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  NATIONAL WHITLEY COUNCIL.
  NATIONAL WHITLEY COUNCIL.
AVIATION.
  BRITISH EXHIBIT, GOTHENBURG.
  BRITISH EXHIBIT, GOTHENBURG.
  BRITISH AIR LINES, CZECHOSLOVAKIA.
  BRITISH AIR LINES, CZECHOSLOVAKIA.
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (AIRSHIP STATIONS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (AIRSHIP STATIONS).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  FINAL WEEKLY ALLOWANCE.
  FINAL WEEKLY ALLOWANCE.
  FUNERAL EXPENSES.
  FUNERAL EXPENSES.
  FINAL AWARDS (SUBSEQUENT TREATMENT).
  FINAL AWARDS (SUBSEQUENT TREATMENT).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (C. SMITH, MANCHESTER).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (C. SMITH, MANCHESTER).
  CLOTHING GRANT.
  CLOTHING GRANT.
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  SMALL HOLDINGS, SCOTLAND (W. MUNRO).
  SMALL HOLDINGS, SCOTLAND (W. MUNRO).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  CIVIL SERVICE (LYTTON ENTRANTS).
  CIVIL SERVICE (LYTTON ENTRANTS).
  TUBERCULAR CASES (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
  TUBERCULAR CASES (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
  TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE.
  TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE.
  CIVIL LIABILITIES GRANTS.
  CIVIL LIABILITIES GRANTS.
  IMPROVERS (EMPLOYMENT, SHEFFIELD).
  IMPROVERS (EMPLOYMENT, SHEFFIELD).
BRITISH ARMY.
  VENEREAL DISEASE.
  VENEREAL DISEASE.
  WAR SERVICE (WOMEN).
  WAR SERVICE (WOMEN).
INDIA.
  POST OFFICE EXPENDITURE.
  POST OFFICE EXPENDITURE.
  Civil, AND PUBLIC SERVICES (FAMILY PENSION SCHEMES).
  Civil, AND PUBLIC SERVICES (FAMILY PENSION SCHEMES).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  ANGLO-RUSSIAN TRADE.
  ANGLO-RUSSIAN TRADE.
  IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
  IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
  PRUDENTIAL ASSURANCE COMPANY (WAR BOND POLICIES).
  PRUDENTIAL ASSURANCE COMPANY (WAR BOND POLICIES).
  UNITED NATIONAL FRIENDLY ASSURANCE COLLECTING SOCIETY.
  UNITED NATIONAL FRIENDLY ASSURANCE COLLECTING SOCIETY.
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
FRANCE AND RUHR DISTRICT.
  BRITISH TRADE.
  BRITISH TRADE.
  SANITARY INSPECTORS (SALARIES).
  SANITARY INSPECTORS (SALARIES).
  VACCINATION.
  VACCINATION.
  MEAT INSPECTION.
  MEAT INSPECTION.
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  APPROVED SOCIETIES (INVESTMENTS).
  APPROVED SOCIETIES (INVESTMENTS).
  BENEFITS.
  BENEFITS.
  HALTH VISITORS (SALARIES).
  HALTH VISITORS (SALARIES).
  BLIND PERSONS ACT (WORKSHOPS).
  BLIND PERSONS ACT (WORKSHOPS).
  STANNINGTON SANATORIUM (GRANT).
  STANNINGTON SANATORIUM (GRANT).
HOUSING.
  NON-PARLOUR HOUSES (COST).
  NON-PARLOUR HOUSES (COST).
  HOUSES ERECTED.
  HOUSES ERECTED.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LOANS).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LOANS).
POST OFFICE.
  SAVINGS BANK DEPOSITS.
  SAVINGS BANK DEPOSITS.
  BRITISH BROADCASTING COMPANY.
  BRITISH BROADCASTING COMPANY.
  LOST REGISTERED LETTER (COMPENSATION).
  LOST REGISTERED LETTER (COMPENSATION).
  PICTURE POST CARDS.
  PICTURE POST CARDS.
  TELEPHONE, SERVICE, MIDDLESBROUGH.
  TELEPHONE, SERVICE, MIDDLESBROUGH.
  ILLEGITIMATE BIRTHS (WORKHOUSES).
  ILLEGITIMATE BIRTHS (WORKHOUSES).
  SUMMER TIME.
  SUMMER TIME.
  ARREST, MANCHESTER (G. CLANCY).
  ARREST, MANCHESTER (G. CLANCY).
  VATICAN (KING'S VISIT).
  VATICAN (KING'S VISIT).
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT (STAR CHAMBER COURT).
  HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT (STAR CHAMBER COURT).
IRELAND.
  DEPORTATIONS FROM GREAT BRITAIN (P. HYLAND).
  DEPORTATIONS FROM GREAT BRITAIN (P. HYLAND).
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY. (DISBANDMENT TERMS).
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY. (DISBANDMENT TERMS).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  RECONSTRUCTION WORK, FRANCE.
  RECONSTRUCTION WORK, FRANCE.
  BENEFIT (W. MURPHY, STOKE-ON-TRENT).
  BENEFIT (W. MURPHY, STOKE-ON-TRENT).
  CLAIMS (SCRUTINY).
  CLAIMS (SCRUTINY).
  MEAT PRICES.
  MEAT PRICES.
  TRADE BOARDS ACTS.
  TRADE BOARDS ACTS.
  OPIUM TRAFFIC (REVENUE).
  OPIUM TRAFFIC (REVENUE).
  PALESTINE (CUSTOMS DUTIES).
  PALESTINE (CUSTOMS DUTIES).
  RAILWAY ACCIDENT. LIVER POOL STREET TERMINUS.
  RAILWAY ACCIDENT. LIVER POOL STREET TERMINUS.
  LABOUR MEETINGS, BIRMINGHAM (POLICE REPORTS).
  LABOUR MEETINGS, BIRMINGHAM (POLICE REPORTS).
  ALLOTMENTS, WANDSWORTH.
  ALLOTMENTS, WANDSWORTH.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
WALLASEY EMBANKMENT BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.

AGRICULTURAL RETURNS BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Ancaster, who is unable to be here at the moment, I beg leave to introduce the Agricultural Returns Bill to facilitate the preparation of agricultural statistics; and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law with respect to the jurisdiction and business of the Supreme Court in England, and with respect to the officers and offices thereof, and otherwise with respect to administration of justice in England; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

WILLIAM BROWN NIMMO CHARITABLE TRUST ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF BATH: My Lords, the general object of the Bill which I bring to your Lordships' notice this afternoon is to give effect to the recommendations of the Report of the Royal Commission which was presented to Parliament in March last year. The circumstances which led to the appointment of that Commission are, of course, stated very fully in the Report, but at the same time the Bill involves a new departure so far as Oxford and Cambridge Universities are concerned, and I think I ought therefore to recall the circumstances as briefly as I can.
Until 1919 no State aid had been granted to the new Universities as such. Some comparatively small sums had been given to them by the Board of Education and Ministry of Agriculture for certain specified objects. At the latter end of 1918 the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Education received a deputation from the newer Universities asking for further grants to enable them to meet the increased costs resulting from the war. At that deputation Oxford and Cambridge were represented at the President's own request, and as it was perfectly clear that the same causes which operated in the case of the newer Universities were also operating in the case of these two Universities they were asked to submit at the same time statements as to their more immediate needs. These statements showed that for the first time in their history Oxford and Cambridge had to ask for considerable sums from the public funds. They asked for grants to meet their recurring expenses apart from their capital needs.
The then Government felt that they could not accede at once to this request without such an inquiry as would satisfy Parliament that the Universities were unable to meet their obligations from their own resources. They intimated to them that a Royal Commission of inquiry would have to be appointed, and they asked them whether they were prepared to co-operate. The answer of the two Universities was that they were prepared to do so. Consequently, the Royal Commission was appointed in November, 1919. The terms of reference, as stated in the preamble to this Bill, were as follows:—
736
"To consider the applications which have been made by the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge for financial assistance from the State, and for that purpose to inquire into the financial resources of the Universities and of the colleges and halls therein, into the administration and application of these resources, into the government of the Universities and into the relations of the colleges and halls to the Universities and to each other."
The Chairman of the Royal Commission, as your Lordships know, was Mr. Asquith, It was divided into three Committees, which dealt respectively with Oxford, Cambridge, and the question of estates management.
It is impossible, within the compass of this debate, to go in great detail into the recommendations of the Royal Commission. Oxford and Cambridge are elaborate and intricate organisations, into every part of which the Royal Commission devoted a searching inquiry. The recommendations they made are very numerous and, apart from the question of the Parliamentary grants, to which I shall come later, the recommendations deal with matters of a very intricate character. The recommendations themselves number no fewer than 179, and I may safely say that every one of them is important from one point of view or another. I trust I am not going beyond my province this afternoon if I venture to express, what I feel must be in the minds of all of your Lordships, our full acknowledgements to the distinguished ladies and gentlemen who formed that Commission, for the thoroughness of their researches and for the time and trouble which, for over two years, they devoted to the work which they had undertaken, to the great advantage of the State and of the Universities themselves.
The Report was unanimous, subject to certain not numerous reservations, the most important of which probably is that relating to the position of women at Cambridge, signed by Mr. Graham and Miss Clough. On that also I shall ask permission to say a word later. I think it is recognised that it is practically impossible for Parliament to deal in detail, and by express enactments, with all the matters that must be taken into consideration in such a revision of such statutes. The procedure adopted in this Bill is that which was taken on a previous occasion. Then in 1877, again, after the Report of a Royal Commission, a Com-

737
mission was set up for Oxford and Cambridge respectively, with general directions to make statutes for the Universities and the colleges, which it was no doubt intended should have close reference to the Report of the Royal Commission. The chief distinction between that Act and the present Bill is that whereas under the Act the directions given to the Commissioners to make statutes were of a general character, and without any special instructions, except by way of limitation and general guidance as to the form those statutes were to take, the present Bill gives the Commissioners a more limited charter. It directs them to make statutes in general accordance with the recommendations contained in the Report of the Royal Commission, but with such modifications as may, after the consideration of any representations made to them, appear to them expedient.
In those directions, which will be found in Clause 6, the Government have followed the procedure laid down in the University of London Act, 1898, rather than the Act of 1877, so that the directions given to the Commissioners under the Bill follow almost exactly the precedent of the University of London Act. I would draw your Lordships' special attention to the general character of these directions. The Commissioners will not be bound to adhere textually to the Report of the Commission. They may use their own judgment. They may consider any representations made to them, but, under the words of the Bill, they will act in general harmony with, and according to the spirit of, the Report. As in the Act of 1877, a Commission is appointed, as I have said, for each University. Each Commission is composed of nine persons, and on each Commission is a representative of the smaller colleges and of the extra-mural boards. The Chairmen of the Commissions are, for Ox ford, Lord Chelmsford, and, for Cambridge, Lord Ullswater—two names which, I think, will give your Lordships every confidence that the work of these Commissions will be carried out thoroughly and in accordance with the Report. Under Clause 4 the expenses of the Commissioners will be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.
Under Clause 5 the powers of the Commissioners continue to the end of 1925 with power by Order in Council to extend
738
them for another two years. Clause 6 I have already practically dealt with; it 'relates to the purposes for which the Commissioners are authorised to make statutes. It gives them directions, and, though it may appear at first sight as if these directions were rather wide, your Lordships must read the clause in conjunction with the Schedule and especially with the clause in the Schedule numbered 14, where provision is made that regard must be had to the main design of the founder. Clause 7 deals with the methods by which the Universities and the colleges are to make statutes after the Commissions have come to an end. Broadly speaking, they follow the Act of 1877, but with one difference of some importance. The Universities are given the power independently of the colleges to prescribe what contributions are to be made by the colleges for University purposes. This is in accordance with the express recommendation of the Report.
Clause 8 embodies the provisions of the Act of 1877, but it makes two considerable changes. Under the Act of 1877 no trust could be altered if it was less than fifty years old at the tiny of the passing of the Act; that is to say, if it had been founded in 1827 or after. The result of that at this moment is that there are trusts very nearly 100 years old which cannot be touched. The Bill, however, goes a step further. It turns the fixed period of fifty years after the passing of the Act into a running period of fifty years, which is to count from the date of the making of the statute, whenever that may be. This, again, is in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commision. There is one further change, which is not expressly mentioned in the Report. Under the clause trusts less than fifty years old can be altered with the consent of the trustees. With the changes in University organisation going on at the present time there are many provisions of a trust which, if they enter at all into detail, become rapidly obsolete, and there is reason to believe that there are trusts which the trustees would be glad to see altered in minor respects, every regard, of course, being had to the main design and object of the founder.
The Schedule, to which I now come, is practically a reprint of those clauses of the Act of 1877 which are applicable to

739
the present day. There are certain modifications, but they are mainly modifications of date, to suit the change of circumstances between 1877 and 1923. The procedure of making a statute will be as follows: To the end of 1924 the Universities and colleges will have the opportunity of considering the Report of the Royal Commission and of making statutes in accordance with it. During this period the Commissioners will not make any statutes on their own initiative. But any statutes made by the Universities and colleges in this period will have to be submitted to the Commissioners for their approval, and, if approved, the subsequent stages of their ratification is identical with those of statutes made by the Commissioners. This is a repetition of the Act of 1877. I submit that it is a very convenient one, both because the Universities and colleges should have power to consider the Report and to act on their own account, and because, if they do so, they will very materially lighten the labours of the Commissioners.
At the beginning of 1925 the powers of the Commissioners arise, and the statutes which they make are divided, broadly speaking, into statutes for the Universities and statutes for the colleges. With regard to a statute for a University, it will have to be submitted to the governing body of the University, and the Commissioners are bound to take into consideration any representations made to them by that body. With regard to a statute for a college, the Commissioners give notice to the college, and the college is empowered to appoint three persons to act on the Commission for the purposes of that statute. These three persons will be practically Commissioners they will sit with the Commissioners, and their views are entitled to equal weight as to whether that statute shall be made or rejected, either in whole or in part.
A statute, when made by the Commissioners or by the Universities and colleges, will be submitted to His Majesty in Council and published, and within eight weeks of publication—this period was three months in the old Act—any body or person may petition His Majesty in Council for its disallowance. The statute is then referred to the Universities Committee set up under the Act of 1877, before which body the petitioners are entitled to appear and to
740
be heard by themselves or by counsel. The Universities Committee report their decision to His Majesty in Council The final stage of the statute is that it is laid on the Table of each House of Parliament, and if within four weeks either House presents an Address to His Majesty praying for its disallowance the statute does not become operative.
Now the statutes made by the Commissioners will relate mainly to University organisation, and they will not deal with Parliamentary grants which form an important part of the recommendations of the Royal Commission. While that Royal Commission was sitting each University was allowed as an interim measure a provisional grant of £30,000 a year, and one of the main objects of the Royal Commission was to determine what that grant should ultimately be. The Commission recommended that there should be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament £90,000 a year for general purposes and £10,000 a year for the University library, making a total of £100,000 a year to each University. They proposed also that a grant of £4,000 a year for ten years should be made to the Women's Property Committee for distribution among the women's colleges, and that £6,000 should be paid to the extra-mural board of each University for academic work outside their own walls. The Commission recommended also the payment of a lump sum in respect of pensions arrears.
The time is not very favourable for imposing additional charges upon the Exchequer, and, having regard to the paramount necessity of limiting public expenditure to the lowest possible figure, even on objects which are in themselves highly desirable, the Government do not feel able at present to increase their grants to Oxford and Cambridge by so large a sum as was recommended by the Royal Commission. They recognise, however, the very serious financial position of both Universities, and are now seriously considering the possibility of giving such additional assistance as may enable their most immediately urgent needs to he met. I ought to add that if it is found necessary to reduce the grants from the sums mentioned by the Royal Commission, the cut will be made proportionately, so that the women's colleges and the extra-mural boards will get their share of the money.

741
There is another matter on which I must say a word, and that is the vexed question of the position of women at Cambridge. The Royal Commission expressed a definite opinion that women should become full members of the University, but they were almost equally divided as to the methods by which that result should be attained. One side desired that immediate effect should be given to this by Act of Parliament. The other side desired that the reconstituted University should be left to deal with the matter by internal legislation. The Royal Commission early in its Report uses these words:—
"The progress of reform in Oxford and Cambridge in the nineteenth century is one of the strongest cases that can be quoted by those who hold that ancient institutions are always capable of adaptation to the needs of a new age."
There is every probability that the governing body of the University as now re constituted will be able to settle this question for itself without Parliamentary interference, and the Bill, therefore, does not directly impose this particular obligation upon Cambridge.
This is the Bill to which I have to ask your Lordships to give your assent. The Royal Commission more than once in the course of its Report pays generous tribute to the attitude and the work of our two senior Universities. They say in one place:—
"Oxford and Cambridge have entered on a great work of education outside their own walls in connection with extension lectures and tutorial classes. Inside their own walls they have advanced and are daily advancing, so far as their limited resources permit, to make the whole range of modern learning and science their province. They have trained up a great proportion of the leading men in almost all learned subjects, humane and scientific, and have sent out from their midst many of the leaders of public life and administrators of distant parts of the Empire."
It is in the belief that your Lordships desire to give to Oxford and Cambridge the unfettered opportunity of carrying forward their good work and to give them the assistance which they have shown they so earnestly need, that I now move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Marquess of Bath.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, the noble Marquess, in a speech of great
742
lucidity, has explained the provisions of this somewhat intricate Bill. It is intricate because the substance of the Bill is not to be found within its four corners. It is a Bill for the purpose of enabling new Commissioners to carry out the Report of an earlier Commission. Speaking for myself, I am not at all complaining of the form which the Bill has taken. I think it is the best form. It follows the form of the London University Act of 1898, as the noble Marquess has pointed out, and in doing so it follows a form which, I think, is almost inevitable. The time has gone by when you could appoint. Commissioners in the air to do what occurred to them with a University. A policy can only be carried out if that policy has been founded on investigation and arrived at after evidence has been taken.
The Royal Commission, on the Report of which this Bill is founded, have done their work thoroughly. There can be no doubt of that in the mind of anybody who has studied the Report It is a very elaborate Report, and it contains just the kind of substance which is valuable as a direction to fresh Commissioners appointed with statutory powers, and who are told to follow the general lines of the Report, but who are free to consider and make variations as fresh information may reach their notice. I think we ought all to join with the noble Marquess in his expression of gratitude to the Royal Commission for the work it did. It was, I think, a very admirable Royal Commission. It did its work in a conservative fashion, and in University matters that is sometimes not undesirable. It made a Report which, conservative as it was in tone, was not lacking in thoroughness.
In the conclusion of his speech the noble Marquess repeated some eloquent words with which the Report of the Royal Commission closed. It was a tribute to the work that Oxford and Cambridge have done in the past for the nation. But there is something with which we are at least equally concerned, and that is the work which Oxford and Cambridge are doing, and are promising to do, for the future of the nation. I speak with detachment, except that I hold their honorary degrees. I never was really a member of either of these Universities, although I have examined in them, lectured in them, and had to do with

743
them in other ways. I am connected with other Universities, but that fact has not in the least detracted from the admiration I have, and always have had, for these two old Universities.
I remember well sitting with the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain at Highbury some years before his death. It was a time when he and I were both engaged in plans for the new Universities which have grown up in such numbers during this century. I remember Mr. Chamberlain turning to me and saying: "Now let us make a covenant. Whatever we try to do in the way of reform, let us do nothing that hurts by a hair's breadth these two old Universities. They have an atmosphere and a tradition which we cannot reproduce in anything else, and which are precious." I have always thought of those words coming from so high and so disinterested a source.
It is not only in material things that Oxford and Cambridge have rendered, and are rendering, great service; but they are in those material things rendering very great service. We live in a century which is distinguished by the almost appalling variety of its new discoveries and new knowledge. We are only at the beginning of that. It is knowledge that will revolutionise almost every kind of business, and that requires those who are carrying on the businesses from which the wealth of the nation arises to be masters of the new secrets of science so as to be able to apply them in revolutionising the processes which may have been in use for generations. Not in one direction only but in many directions that is so. In the case of physics and chemistry enormous work has been done by the Universities which have helped our manufacturers very greatly. In the ease of biology and of medicine the two old Universities have done a tremendous deal more work of quite a different kind which has assisted materially in prolonging life in the nation, and has helped to develop our hospital system. There are other departments of knowledge in which the contribution is scarcely less startling. The new Universities are doing the same work, but the important thing is that some of the best of the work is coming from the two old Universities.
If that is so—I am confining myself now to material benefits—then surely the wellbeing of these Universities is an integral
744
part of the life of the nation, and it is necessary for us to see that their strength is maintained, and not only maintained but something more than maintaied. We live in times when every nation is competing with us. Even new nations are developng science and knowledge, and in the United States of America the progress of the Universities and the advance of science in its application to industry have been enormous and are increasing every month. In the Empire—in Canada and in Australia—it is the same. So is it in other countries. You have only to turn to Germany, and if you watch closely there you will see that, notwithstanding her poverty, she is sparing nothing upon education. She is doing all she can to strengthen her educational system in the belief that upon that her future and wealth depend. If you take France it is the same. In that condition of things are we, as prudent people, going to put knowledge upon the footing of those other things which may be cut down, and which may be the subject of easy-going economies?
I am all for the policy of cutting down the national expenditure to the bone, and I think that there is still more that can come off the national expenditure. I gather from the recent utterances of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he is of that opinion, too. That is all right. But what I do wish is that people would put things intelligently in order of urgency when they are considering the services we can spare. We had a debate the other day upon national defence, in the course of which it became apparent that we must walk warily before we cut down the Air Service. I say the same of the Education Service, because upon that depends our future and our wealth. If you cut off money which is essential in order to enable us to keep our place in the competition with the world, you will undermine the strength and destroy the wealth of the nation. If that is so, then it is not to be wondered at that the Royal Commission made a Report which involves further expenditure in the case of these two Universities. It was not for merely material purposes that they did so, but they did so because at every turn there has been poured out from these Universities a new class of student.
They tell you in the Report that these two old Universities cannot exist any

745
more merely for the purpose of encouraging the old-fashioned Varsity man, as he used to call himself, who went to a University and had a good time there, and came back and was, I dare say, all the better physically for the time he had there, but had not profited from the opportunities of learning which were at his disposal. Now these Universities are required more and more to engage in research by men who have to teach those who are to be the leaders, in the language of the Commissioners, in the various things which we are called upon to do if we would preserve our life as a nation. Therefore, say the Commissioners, we must preserve the Universities more and more for people who will make a better use of them than to come out at the end merely as the old-fashioned 'Varsity man. The people who come out will be those who are to discharge the high functions for which only knowledge and training in the atmosphere of the Universities can fit them. That being so, the Commission reports that more money is wanted to bring the Universities up to the requirements of the time, and that it is wanted for certain special purposes.
It is a common superstition, and I dare say some of your Lordships entertain it, that when you send your sons to Oxford and Cambridge, and indeed to the other Universities in this country to a still greater degree, in paying the fees and making the provision for the undergraduate you are paying the whole cost. You are doing nothing of the kind. If you take the Universities of this country on the average you pay only a third of the cost of keeping a student there. The State, in some cases the rates, and in all cases the endowments—which in the case of 'Oxford and Cambridge are very large—do the rest of the maintenance, and make up the two-thirds which does not come from the parents' pockets. That fact is getting to be appreciated.
A question has been raised of late by the working classes, or by that vast proportion of the democracy which never goes near a University because has not the chance: Why is it that out of taxes money should be taken for the upkeep of Universities to which we have no access? The problem has been partly solved during late years. Universities have taken on a new function, the function of exercising their influence extra-murally, out-
746
side their own walls. The Universities of this country in general—Oxford and Cambridge have been the leaders—now send out their tutors and lecturers to industrial and populous centres where they give education to the adults who come from the pit where they have been working, to the women who come from the factories where they have been working, and sometimes to the labourers front the fields. This goes on to an extent which would astonish those who have not been privileged, as I have, to see it.
The working classes are showing a thirst for knowledge, and, what is quite new, a thirst for knowledge of the University type. They are asking more and more that the Universities should extend their functions so as to place these opportunities locally within their reach. Nothing could be better than that in our populous and in lustrial centres there should be tutors and fellows of the Universities, tutors who go there bringing the best qualifications of the Universities from which they have come and exercising an influence which they alone can exercise upon the working classes who come and work in the evenings at a regular and systematic course, as near as possible to that given to the undergraduate in the University itself.
The Workers Educational Association has not nearly sixty centres with about 20,000 people tinder instruction. This is the very thing which Oxford and Cambridge are trying to develop, and it is the very thing on which the Commission reports in emphatic terms. You must do it because the people are demanding that the resources of the Universities, for which in a large measure they pay, should be available in this fashion to them, and the Universities are demanding it because they recognise that they are fulfilling a national function, and so far as they do it they grow in stature and become much more important in the life of the nation than hitherto. It is for adult education that part of the money recommended by the Commission is earmarked. It is a small part, £6,000 to each University. The hulk of the money recommended is for the general necessities of the Universities, and without that money, the Commission point out, the Universities are bound to go down in strength and cannot continue their work.

747
I listened with great interest to the remarks of the noble Marquess on the subject of finance. In this House we cannot deal with taxation, nor are we supposed to be too curious about it, but when a Bill comes before us, the efficiency of which depends on support from public funds, we are entitled to comment on the extent to which that support is likely to be given. As I say, I listened with great interest to the remarks of the noble Marquess, and I congratulate hint on a certain obscurity in exegesis which he imposed on those who were hanging on his words as to how much the State was likely to give. I gather that the £30,000 war grant is likely to be continued. I am not presuming to ask; I am rather assuming it. But when we come to the rest, there was the usual reference to the necessity for economy, and no indication that the State was putting the maintenance and upkeep of this vital factor in our national life on a footing of its own. Still the noble Marquess did not send us away altogether unhappy, because there was something encouraging in his tone. My own doubt was whether it was possible to get any definite view as to what was likely to happen. The importance of it is that this Bill is largely a Money Bill. Without public money you cannot keep the Universities up to their strength. The Commission made a notable Report, but that Report will come to nothing unless the means are placed within the hands of the Universities to enable them to work out its conclusion.
One other thing I desire to say. The noble Marquess, towards the conclusion of his speech, touched on the question of women, and he said what is true, that there are two views expressed in the Report. One view is that it would be better to leave it to Cambridge to work out the necessary reforms. That is all very well, but Cambridge is the sole University in this country which is refusing to accord women the status of equality with men. They are willing to give them titular distinctions without membership of the University. Cambridge University, under this Bill, is in the position of coming to Parliament and asking for public funds, and, therefore, Parliament has a complete right to say: "We will give you public funds but you must keep up to the standards of the times." I only say that because I have a strong view that it is impossible for any
748
University to hold out against women coming in. Oxford University has let women in completely; I suppose there is more conservatism in Cambridge still. But Parliament will have to decide whether it will give public money without insisting on modern standards being maintained.
I hold very strongly that the day has gone by for making distinction between the sexes on such occasions as this, but I do not propose to move any amendments to the Bill in Committee. Possibly there may be amendments in another place, and I have reason to think that that is not altogether improbable. I am quite aware of the difficulties the Commission had with regard to local feeling in Cambridge. I hope that that local feeling will he warned, and that, like the Corporation of Croydon yesterday, they will take warning from the discussions in Parliament. I only wish to add that many of us cordially support the main purpose of the Bill. It is a good and useful Bill, and subject to the question of the women and the proper provision of sufficient money to make the Bill a reality, something more than a mere shadow, I am in cordial support of it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, as an Oxford man I speak with some diffidence on anything which concerns intimately the University of Cambridge, but I should not like this stage of the Bill to pass without associating myself with what the noble and learned Viscount has just said about the full admission of women to the privileges of Cambridge University. He is quite accurate when he says that this matter has passed beyond a local matter and has become a national question. It has become a national matter in two senses. In the first place, the whole attitude of Parliament and the public towards the position of women in public life has changed within recent years.
Cambridge University is now the only University in England that will not concede to women the full privileges of membership, and Cambridge University is now coming to Parliament asking for assistance from public funds. Really it is quite incredible that the circumstances of Cambridge should be so peculiar or the characteristics of women educated at Girton and Newnham so different from

749
those of other women that at Cambridge alone is it dangerous to admit them to the full privileges of membership. I understand that no Amendment is to be moved in this House, but I sincerely hope that in another place an instruction will be given to the Commission to do for the women of Girton and Newnham at Cambridge what has been done for the women of the women's colleges at Oxford by the University itself.
I was very glad to hear the unqualified eulogy which my noble and learned friend has passed upon the great and ancient Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. I fully admit the necessity for this Bill, but I confess to a very real regret that the Universities have had to come to Parliament for the assistance of public money. If it had been possible for them to do what is necessary out of their own old endowments, assisted by fresh endowments, I think they would have been standing on surer ground than they will occupy when once the intervention of Parliament, or rather of a public Office, has been admitted in their internal affairs. Surely there is a very peculiar and humiliating contrast between the position of the ancient Universities of this country and that of the new Universities in the United States of America. If a modern University in America wants money for any purpose, either for its existing work or fem its development, I understand that the millionaires of America, almost by return of post, furnish the funds which it requires. And yet the University of Oxford, notwithstanding the herculean labours of my noble friend the present Chancellor, and the University of Cambridge, notwithstanding the corresponding labours of the late Duke of Devonshire and others, have failed entirely to arouse the imagination of the millionaires of England, who apparently prefer to leave half their fortunes when they die to the Chancellor of the Exchequer (which I should have thought to be the least attractive form of disposing of your fortune), whereas if these Universities had been in America there can be no doubt that there would never have been any necessity for an appeal to Parliament.
LORD ERNLE: My Lords, as a member of the Universities Commission, as a former M.P. for Oxford University, and as sharing with the Leader of the House
750
what your Lordships may perhaps consider the indelible disadvantage of having once been a don, I feel that I should like to say a few words on the points raised in this discussion, and more especially to take a wider view of the question of the admission of women.
I think there has been some little misunderstanding on the part both of the noble and learned Viscount and of the noble Marquess as to what the proceedings of the Commission in that respect actually were. As Lord Selborne has pointed out, the Universities are running a considerable risk in asking Parliament for State assistance. There is a possibility, even a probability, that some sacrifice of their independence will be exacted as the price of financial help. That is the very thing the Royal Commission hoped to avoid. We were divided on many points, no doubt, but on one point we were practically unanimous; namely, that we would endeavour to preserve the autonomy of the University, to maintain its independence, and to secure its freedom. We thought that it was voluntarily and of its own motion adapting itself rapidly to the changing needs of the nation, and we were convinced that that, spontaneous development was more consistent with our political tradition than could be the action of any State-controlled University. We were determined, if any recommendations of ours could secure it, to leave the Universities masters in their own house. Nay more, we wanted to make them more efficient and complete masters than they were before the Commission opened; and we sought to do this by reducing the obstructive power of non-residents—whom, if I may use a word which is confined to the vocabulary of this House, I may call "backwoodsmen"—and by increasing the power of those who were actually engaged in the educational and administrative work of the University.
This has an important bearing upon the question of the admission of women to membership. Of all the things that are necessary to the independence of the Universities, complete control of the regulations and conditions concerning the membership of the University is to my mind the most essential, considering the variety of the ramifications which spring out of it. The Universities Commission was unanimously agreed that membership

751
of Universities ought to be conceded to women both by Oxford and Cambridge. At Oxford that concession had already been made, and the Oxford members accordingly withdrew from the discussion, because they felt that if membership of the University were conferred upon women at Cambridge by votes from Oxford it would not lead to harmony of relations. The Cambridge body therefore discussed the question alone, and although it is true that they were divided as to whether or not legislative interference should be asked for, they did decide, with only one dissentient, that they would not ask for it. They decided, in fact, that the best way in which it could be carried out, the way which was most promising of harmony in future relations, the way which would produce the least friction, was for the University of Cambridge to do it by its own spontaneous action. The Cambridge members were convinced that the opinion of Cambridge itself, of those who were engaged in the administration and educational work of the University, was in favour of granting the membership to women, and that if the obstructive powers of the non-resident backwoodsmen were reduced it would be carried, and carried at once. It is therefore a question of means.
The noble and learned Viscount has thrown out a suggestion that it might be forced upon the University as the price of financial assistance. That, if I may venture to say so, is the very kind of argument that we on the Commission wished to avoid. We wanted to say: "No, it is the spontaneous action of the University which will do it. It is in that way that you can hope for the greatest success of the women's movement in the future, and we will not make a bargain with the State over a question of money on a point like that." And, although it is only a question of means, it seems to me to be a point which is capable of very large and dangerous extension. There is an appeal, as some of your Lordships have seen, from the political side of the women's movement for equal citizenship. What they say in that appeal is practically this: Women taxpayers are asked to contribute to the upkeep of the University and therefore they have a right to demand equal citizenship and equal membership of the University.
752
Look for one moment at the parallel ease to which the noble Viscount has alluded, of extra-mural work. The working man is a taxpayer, and is taxed to support the Universities. He may say that it is only possible for him to get any advantage from the Universities if he has such and such concessions in the way in which membership is granted. You are running quite close to that if you apply the same principle as is sought to be applied in regard to women's membership. For this reason I hope that, in this House at all events, where we are under no political pressure, we shall look at this Bill only from the point of view of what is best in the interests of the University, because, after all, if Universities are to hold their own in national life it must be by their own spontaneous action, and they may be trusted, I believe, to make concessions, both in the direction of women's membership and the extension of extramural teaching, which will meet the national aspirations.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not know that there is any matter on which the Government is called upon to reply in the speeches delivered this afternoon, except to say how grateful they are to noble Lords, in all quarters of the House, for the very cordial reception which the Bill has received. It is a matter of great satisfaction to us, and we were very grateful, notably to the noble and learned Viscount opposite, who is a great authority in these matters, for the reception given to the Bill Indeed, the noble and learned Viscount was so cordial that he, I think, ventured into a domain of Conservative enthusiasm, with which we are now becoming familiar on the Bench opposite, and which in every instance of its repetition is very gratifying to us. He recognises, I think quite as much as we do, the influence and importance of the great traditions of the older Universities. That is a great thing.
I think, perhaps, he was inclined to be a little sarcastic over the advantage which these great Universities have in the past conferred upon the upper and middle classes of this country. I shall not yield to him in my desire to see as much progress and development in the education of the working classes as is possible, but I think it would be very short-sighted to think that because we

753
want to see the working classes better educated we should despise the education conferred in the past upon the upper and middle classes. On the contrary, the greatness of our country, and its success in the world, has depended in no slight measure upon that very education which these old Universities have given to the upper and middle classes of the country.
Every speaker, or at any rate several speakers, dwelt upon the faculty which these old Universities have shown to adapt themselves to modern requirements. It is a great sign of vitality that, notwithstanding their ancient character, and their great traditions, they are able to adapt themselves to modern needs, and it is largely because we want to assist them in that great work that this Bill has been introduced. My noble friend Lord Selborne regretted that the old Universities have been obliged to apply to the State for money. I quite agree with him. I think it is a very regrettable fact, and although I was glad to hear the testimony given by Lord Ernie, of the desire of the Commissioners to prevent, this money contribution carrying with it a demand for State control, yet one cannot conceal from oneself that there is a certain risk that if old institutions accept public money there may be a demand for State interference. I am certain that the less State interference there is in the management and control of the old Universities the better.
The noble and learned Viscount rallied my noble friend in charge of the Bill upon his discretion in discussing money matters. Well, it is a discretion which we who sit in your Lordships' House have had to learn, and which most of us practice. I quite understand the feeling of the noble and learned Viscount when he is brought up against economy as applied to education. He says that education is the last thing about which we ought to economise. That is generally said by every person in respect of the matter in which he is interested. The Air Service says we must not economise about Air. I have no doubt that my noble friend Lord Derby would say that we ought not to economise too much about the Army, and I am sure that those who are interested in sanitary reform would say the same thing about sanitary matters. Every separate interest in the country which is threatened with economy says:
754
"Well, economy may be good for everybody else, but I and my interest ought to be the exception." I am afraid that if the Government proceeded upon that basis there would be no economy at all, and therefore it is necessary, even in the matter of education, that the Government should not be as generous as they would wish to be. And that is all that Lord Bath said in his opening statement.
That money will be made available in consequence of this Bill I think there can be no doubt, but it will be a very much smaller sum, I am afraid, at any rate in the first instance, than was suggested by the Commission. That is inevitable, but I hope that at any rate your Lordships and the country will take the will for the deed. It is not because we want to cut down the contribution but because dire necessity forces us to do so.
I have only one more word to say, and that is with respect to the vexed question of women and the University of Cambridge. I think none of us can have any doubt, whatever our previous views may have been on the subject, that there is only one end to this controversy. It is obvious that the point has been reached when women at. Cambridge University, as everywhere else, must be admitted to the privileges of the University, and it really is only a question of the method in which that shall be brought about. The point at which the matter has been arrested now is almost absurd, for I believe it to be true that women at Cambridge are entitled to receive the degree, to write themselves down as possessing the degree, to wear the gown and hood prescribed for the degree—entitled, in fact, to every-thing except the actual vote. In that respect Cambridge University is a single exception.
The noble Lord, Lord Ernle, has explained to your Lordships what was the actual attitude of the Commission upon this point, and it seems highly probable, nay, I may say it is almost certain, that, if the Bill passes in its present form, the end which the noble and learned Viscount desires will be achieved, because, as he has said, the actual residents in Cambridge University are, by a majority, almost of that way of thinking. I believe it was shown at the last trial of strength on this subject in Cambridge that the resident Masters of

755
its were resolved upon the change, and it was only those whom my noble friend called the backwoodsmen who prevented its being carried out. But under this Bill the backwoodsmen are being disestablished, and so there is very little doubt that, if nothing else is done, when this Bill passes into law the reform will be carried through.
But, of course, so far as the Government and Parliament are concerned, they will listen to the arguments on this subject with the greatest attention and will weigh what is said with a view to coming to a final conclusion. I have no doubt that, whichever way we go to work, the same end will be achieved, but, as to the precise methods, I do not think we take a very strong view. I earnestly hope that the great favour with which this Bill has been received this afternoon may be an augury of its smooth and swift passage into law. At any rate, no delay which can be avoided will take place in your Lordships' House, and we hope to send the Bill at an early date to another place.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
THE MARQUESS OF BATH: There is a debate down for this day week, but I propose to put down the Committee stage for that day, and, if necessary, it can be postponed.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am afraid that this Bill will not have the same general interest for the House as the Bill with which your Lordships have just dealt, but it has a very real interest for a section of the commercial community; I mean those who are concerned with ships. It is by that section of the community that the Government have been urged to legislate on this subject. I think I can explain the purpose and origin of the Bill in a few sentences. It deals with those documents called bills of lading, which, as your Lordships know, are given by shipowners and charterers to those who ship goods to be carried by sea. These carriers of goods by sea are, under the common
756
law subject to certain well-known liabilities—the liability to provide a seaworthy ship, properly equipped, to stow and handle the goods properly, and matters of that kind. But for a good many years past a practice has grown up under which charterers seek by special conditions in the bills of lading to limit their liabilities to the shipper. These documents are long and complicated, and the shippers and those who act with them have complained that when their goods are lost or damaged they find that, by some condition which they had not properly read, or had not properly understood, they have no remedy for the loss or damage. A good deal of complaint has been made on that score.
Of course, nothing could be done without legislation, as this was a matter of contract. But during recent years there has been legislation on this subject in other countries and in the Dominions. It was in the year 1893 that the United States of America passed what is known as the Harter Act, which prevented shipowners contracting out of some of their liabilities. That Act was followed by legislation in Australia and in New Zealand, and afterwards, in 1910, by similar legislation in Canada. Then a proposal was made for legislation of a similar kind throughout His Majesty's Dominions, and a body called the Dominions Royal Commission reported in favour of legislation throughout the Empire respecting the power of charterers to limit their liabilities in this way. That question was then referred to the Imperial Shipping Committee, on which this country, the Dominions, and shipowners are represented, and that Committee reported in February, 1921, unanimously recommending uniform legislation throughout the Empire on the lines of the Canadian Act. That Report came before the Imperial Conference, which met in the summer of 1921, and was adopted by that Conference. That Resolution, of course, committed His Majesty's Government, as well as the Governments of the Dominions, to propose legislation on the matter.
But since then the proposal has taken a somewhat wider shape, because this question was brought before the meeting at The Hague of the International Law Association. At that meeting there was brought up a code of rules which is known

757
as The Hague Rules of 1921. Those Rules did not entirely agree with the recommendations of the Imperial Conference, and there was a good deal of discussion upon them. Ultimately they were amended, and in 1922 they assumed the form known as The Hague Rules of 1922, which do agree with the proposals made by the Imperial Conference, to be passed by all the Legislatures of the Empire. There has been great deliberation and caution in this matter, and those Rules were again further discussed by the International Maritime Committee, which met in London in October, 1922. The draft, as approved by that Committee, was submitted to the International Conference on Maritime Law, which was held at Brussels, and at which this country was represented by very distinguished representatives. That Conference at Brussels finally approved a set of Rules as a basis for international legislation. Therefore we have now this set of Rules recommended in substance by the Imperial Conference and finally approved, after prolonged discussion, by all the countries represented at the Maritime Conference at Brussels. It is that set of Rules which is contained in the Schedule to this Bill and which the Government recommend now to Parliament.
I do not propose to go through the Rules in detail. They relate to a number of questions which are familiar to those who are concerned in these matters. They deal, principally, with such matters as the liability of the carrier in respect of sea-going ships, with his responsibility for loss and damage in certain particulars such as the manning and equipment of the ship and the fitness of the holds for stowing the goods, with his responsibility for the proper and careful handling, loading, and stowage of the goods which are carried, and with his responsibility for the issue of a bill of lading to the shipper. They provide also that any clause or covenant for cawing down those duties shall be null and void.
With regard to the Bill itself, it is of a simple character. Clause 1 provides that the Rules in the Schedule shall have effect in relation to the carriage of goods by sea from any port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland to any other port,
758
so that it applies only to outgoing goods. Clause 2 provides that there shall not be implied in any contract for the carriage of goods by sea any absolute undertaking by the carrier to provide a seaworthy ship. That is because there is a limited liability imposed by the Rules themselves. Clause 3 provides that every bill of lading which relates to goods carried under the Rules shall contain an express statement that it is to have effect subject to those Rules. The object of that provision is to make it not only part of our law but part of the contract, so that if the contract is sued upon in a foreign country notice must be taken of the effect of the Rules.
That is the short effect of the Bill. Having regard to its form and nature, I am afraid it will be difficult for Parliament to make Amendments in the Rules themselves, because they form an agreed code which cannot be altered by one country without being altered in all the other countries concerned. Therefore, we are pledged to lay the Rules before Parliament as an agreed code to be adopted or not as Parliament may think fit. This, in the main, is a matter which concerns shipowners and shippers, and they have in substance agreed among themselves. The representatives of all our Dominions are of one mind: that legislation on these lines is desirable, and, therefore, I hope that the Bill will commend itself to your Lordships for a Second Reading. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD SUMNER: My Lords, it is a little difficult to address your Lordships upon this subject, partly because it is a dry one and the hour is growing late, and partly because the Lord Chancellor has, with his wonted skill, presented it to you as a simple and beatific measure which really would appear after years and years of war and strife to make a commencement of universal agreement and universal harmony. I feel bound to make a few observations to your Lordships because a large part of my life has been spent in trying to argue about bills of lading whether I understood them or not. I do not pretend to suggest that this is a Bill which in the circumstances anyone could propose to ask your Lordships to

759
reject. But it would appear to he necessary before the Bill passes that your Lordships should thoroughly appreciate what it is that is being done.
The school in which I was brought up taught one that the sheet anchor of trade was freedom of contract, and I should have thought that of all trades the great shipping and carrying trade of our Empire was the one in which one would most suppose—and for many years we have supposed—that the parties were quite able to make contracts for themselves, and that, if they did make contracts, all that the law had to say to them was that those contracts should be interpreted and enforced. This Bill, however, provides that if any person being a carrier of goods within the meaning of the Rules—that is to say, for the present on outward voyages and with under-deck cargo—fails or refuses to issue a bill of lading in accordance with the requirements of the Rules, or makes, signs, or issues a bill of lading which contravenes or does not comply with the Provisions of the Act and the Rules, he shall in respect of each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100.
Now, a large ship may have separate consignments which require hundreds of bills of lading to be signed and issued for a voyage, and these contracts which, under this Bill, have to be embodied in the form required by these Rules, which must not contravene the Rules and which are made void as to any portion of the bill of lading that does contravene the Rules—these contracts are not to be made between the carrier of the goods and the owner of the goods so as to satisfy them both. They must be made in a statutory form; they must be issued—you must not try to shirk that—and they must be issued in a form which conforms to the Rules. There is a liability, on summary conviction in a police court, to a fine of £100 in respect of any bill of lading which fails to be forthcoming, or which, when it is forthcoming, fails to comply with this cast-iron statutory contract..
I should like to ask the Lord Chancellor whether it is really necessary to treat it as a crime for merchants and shipowners to make their own bargains with regard to their own business. This kind of thing, of course, is not new. Beginning about 1860 and terminating
760
some years later, there was a great, international effort made to regulate what is called "general average." Let the name suffice for your Lordships without any endeavour on my part to explain what it is. It is a very important feature in shipping and insurance work. After a series of conferences very like those which were detailed to us by the Lord Chancellor—though I am bound to say that the bodies of those days did not enjoy quite such august names as the committees which were recited to us—and as the result of a long series of discussions, they succeeded in embodying a set of Rules which have long been honoured as the York-Antwerp Rules and have become, with voluntary modifications, the foundations of modern general average in practice. Those Rules have become the code of that business, because shipowners and merchants have voluntarily seen the advisability of adopting them and have adopted them in their contracts.
That was the old way in which these reforms were carried out. But those days are gone by, and now the proposal is that compulsion—which, I think, has been called a blessed word before now—in this stringent form shall be applied. I would venture to suggest to the Lord Chancellor that it would have been quite enough to have provided that no bill of lading should be admissible in evidence which did not comply with the requirements of those Rules, or that any bill of lading which failed to comply with them should be null and void. To make shipowners and carriers liable to penalties of this kind for doing something to which, as between themselves and their customers, both parties are perfectly agreed, to my mind marks another mile-stone on a road which I never thought I should live to travel.
I should also like to ask the Lord Chancellor what is the origin of this penal clause. I do not find any reference to it in the Report of the British delegates at the International Maritime Conference at Brussels last October—which, I think, is the last of these Conferences—at which they appear only to have got 60 far as to agree upon a basis for a diplomatic instrument of some kind. I should have supposed that whatever respect might be due to the issue of a diplomatic instrument by an international conference they would hardly have

761
ventured to purport to bind the Government of this country to introduce penal legislation and to create a new crime. I suppose, therefore, it is the view of the Lord Chancellor that this provision is necessary as a matter of legislation in order to give effect and binding force to the Rules. I suggest that it is an unusual, an untoward, and an unnecessary feature in our legislation, because it is not only very contrary to the economic principles upon which we were brought up, but it appears to me to be harassing in the last degree, and to expose shipowners and their servants to a risk of proceedings that may of course come to nothing, but in any case would be troublesome and quite unnecessary.
I shall not trouble your Lordships with any observations about the contents of these Rules. I recognise that if they have the character of an international agreement it is necessary that they should be enacted, if at all, in identic terms, and so minutely faithful is this Bill to the agreement which was arrived at by the gentlemen who attended at Brussels that I see they punctiliously reproduce a split infinitive: they confuse shall will: and traces of American phraseology have not been removed. I have sufficient experience of that kind of thing to say that on the whole this is quite a favourable specimen of international English, and that it should be characterised by these features in so small a measure is a matter of which the draftsmen have some reason to be proud. But T do not think any lawyer familiar with shipping law and shipping litigation will differ from me when I say that in certainly every article, and in almost every Rule, one finds staring one in the face questions of uncertainty, of obscurity, and, I think, of contradiction between different parts of the Rules which must lead to disputes that can only be settled by litigation.
Do not imagine that I am making any complaint of this. It is our business as Judges to dispose of these questions when they arise. That is our job, and we are prepared to do it. I do not think that the members of the Bar ought to be accused of any manner of insincerity when they say, as to my knowledge they are disposed to say, that these Rules leave much to be desired in the way of clearness. The members of the Bar desire that our law should be as clear and har-
762
monious as may be, and when these difficulties arise they are prepared to deal with them. If the shipowners and the merchants are content to have their Rules in a form which will require a very extensive amount of litigation before they can be cleared up that is their look out.
What I want to emphasise is this. There is little or no use in these Rules unless they become uniform and identic Rules among all the maritime countries of the world. We shall only be getting back into the same kind of difficulties we were in before if we have different interpretations put upon the instrument by the different countries concerned. When you have fixed your contract in the castiron form of a Schedule to an Act it can only be altered by an amending Act, and if you have to have identic legislation in twenty or thirty different countries it can only be altered by twenty or thirty different pieces of legislation in the respective countries. If once you have these Rules enacted in their present form in all the maritime countries, it will be a herculean task to get them altered. If it had been provided that alterations could be made by way of conference then another conference could have cleared up our doubt that had arisen, but if it has to be done by legislation, and by simultancous legislation over a very wide area, it will be very difficult indeed, when once it has passed, to bring about any alteration.
I am anxious to make any suggestion that I can to prevent the inconvenience that must arise in these circumstances, and I will ask the Lord Chancellor, if he will be good enough, to consider this suggestion. There is a passage worthy of observation which I will quote from the report of the Liverpool Steamship Owners' Association, and in which, I think, I recognise the hand of a very eminent public servant, Sir Norman Hill. This observation is:
"The rules are a new departure. They constitute an international code, framed to secure, on certain points, uniformity in the interests of those engaged in international commerce. If the lawyers of all nations will interpret them as they are understood by the traders and shipowners of all nations, the rules will serve a useful purpose"—
That assumes that the traders and shipowners of all nations do understand them, and understand them in the same sense,

763
which is not by any means so certain. The observation proceeds:
"but, if the lawyers of each nation seek to read into the rules the laws and practices of their own country, the rules will serve no useful purpose as uniformity will not be established."
I think that is perfectly obvious, and it is very important.
"If the lawyers of each nation seek to read into the Rules the law of their own country" says Sir Norman Hill. I ask what else can the Judges of each country do? This will be a Statute which must be construed, like other Statutes, according to its meaning in the English language, according to the established rules of construction, and in accordance with the general law of contracts and the general law relating to mercantile affairs. We have no power to depart from that, and yet it will be of great importance that when the Courts of this country and other countries come to interpret the statutory contracts, as they will be called upon to do, they should no longer be obliged absolutely to follow the decisions of their predecessors in similar matters, no longer be bound strictly by the rules of interpretation as they have been laid down, but should be at liberty to inform their minds of and to have regard to the interpretations placed upon these Rules in other countries. It is only in that way that it will be possible for Courts of law to arrive at something like a uniform interpretation and a uniform resolution of the disputes that arise.
I do not propose as I am speaking to attempt to draft such a clause, which, after all, ought not to emanate from me. But I venture to suggest to the Lord Chancellor that it would be advisable to frame some clause that will empower the Judges, before whom any litigation on questions concerning this international set of Rules may come, to take What I may call the international view and inform themselves of the current of decisions in other countries, so that they may, so far as they can, keep in step with the development of the Rules under judicial decisions all over the world.
I should like to draw attention to one other point. It is provided by the Bill that
"The Rules shall not by virtue of this Act apply to any contract for the carriage of goods by sea made before such day, not being earlier than the thirtieth day of
764
September, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, as His Majesty may by Order in Council direct."
That is to say, that it is not to come into force until there is an Order in Council, and that Order in Council, which is not to fix a day earlier than September 30 next, may be indefinitely postponed. I assume that is for the purpose of giving time to all the other countries concerned to make some progress towards passing the same legislation that is contemplated by this Bill. That being so, it is plain that time does not press very much and the Government might hold its hand with regard to the Order in Council for a considerable time. This may be very important. Before the Bill proceeds any further I think we should have a Paper circulated giving a full statement of what exactly is the present condition with regard to international agreements for the provision of this identic legislation.
The countries that met at Brussels were curiously selected. The meeting enjoyed the advice of representatives of Hungary, which is without a seaboard; Serbia, which has a disputed claim to a seaport at the head of the Adriatic; and Poland, which enjoys by the intervention of the "corridor" some kind of rights at Dantzig. Latvia and Esthonia were also there, but Brazil was not represented, Greece was not represented, and, unless the representatives of His Majesty's Government undertook the duty, Egypt was not represented, nor were the Dominions represented except by the delegates appointed by His Majesty's Government. What steps have been taken to ensure that those who were not represented at all, as well as those who were, are prepared to pass these Rules in this particular form and give them the force of law step by step with our legislation and at the same time? Unless something like that is carried out we may find our shipowners running the risk of a £100 fine while a corresponding danger does not affect their rivals who sand ships inward bound from foreign ports.
Further, as the Lord Chancellor told us, there are a number of Statutes already passed prescribing forms for bills of lading or imposing by law certain terms and liabilities on carriers. There is the Harter Act in the United States; there are also Acts in Australia, in New Zealand, and, I believe, in Canada. Will the

765
arrangement that is made include a repeal of the legislation that exists already as part of the common arrangement so that there may be one and only one code applicable. Is the United States to maintain its Harter Act while at the same time legislating in such a way as to embody these Rules? Unless that is dealt with in advance, there will only be further confusion, and although the United States was represented at this Conference, a Conference which results in anything like an international engagement is subject to the ratification of the Senate under the United States Constitution, and does not always receive it. Therefore, it is not to be too confidently expected that harmony, identity, and uniformity will be arrived at by September 30 of this year.
I wish we could have a full statement on this point and an assurance from the Lord Chancellor that before these Rules are brought into force matters will have been carried so far in concert with foreign Powers and the Dominions that we shall have good reason for thinking that the full object of this legislation will be attained. I apologise for having been so long, but I have taken this opportunity of making some observations on the question of freedom of contract. I recognise that British commerce is now regulated by large associations which meet, together and arrange things to whom smaller men must bow. That is the way of the world now, and nothing more can be said about it.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: My Lords, I must apologise for intervening in this debate, but I hope your Lordships will not pass this Bill. The provisions in the measure will be very harassing to British commerce. They are much more likely to hit British interests than those of foreign ships inward bound to this country. Many ships carry very diverse cargoes in very small parcels. You may have a ship carrying 3,000 parcels, requiring 3,000 bills of lading, and it seems to me most unfair to the carrying companies to ask them to incur a liability of perhaps £30,000 on a single voyage, particularly as up to now we have never found any inconvenience from existing Rules. I do not think the Rules have been properly considered from a broad stud British point of view. I do not think all interests concerned were represented
766
at the Conference, and if you read through the Bill you will find that it is somewhat contradictory. I read it through from beginning to end, and I see a great many opportunities of endless litigation for which somebody will have to pay, either the shipper or the shipowner. I hope that your Lordships will reject the Bill.
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, in common with the noble and learned Lord who addressed you a short time ago and in common, I think, with all commercial lawyers or Judges, I regret that it should be necessary to have any interference with that freedom of contract under which our carrying trade has been carried on so successfully for the last sixty or seventy years. I should very much have preferred that sonic system, such as Lord Sumner has alluded to, under which the York-Antwerp Rules were passed, or the Baltic conference bill of lading, or the Black Sea bill of lading, should have taken the place of legislation.
It has to be admitted that, at any rate in the Latin countries, our system of contractual legislation on this matter has never been entirely grasped or understood, and that our bills of lading have not, for instance, fared well in the hands of French Courts. Ever since the Harter Act was passed it has become obvious that there must be some form of legislation; at any rate since that Act has been supplemented by the legislation of so many British Dominions, and I think I could add to the list which has been mentioned. I feel therefore that His Majesty's Government were right in giving effect to this agreement and in proposing this legislation, which, after all, is on the same lines as the international Rules for preventing collisions at sea, which were agreed to in very much the same way and enforced by Statute here in the hope that they would also be enforced by law elsewhere, as, in fact, they have been.
I was very glad to hear the Lord Chancellor pay a tribute to the various societies and Conferences which have laboured so earnestly in this work. As a former President and permanent Vice-President of the International Law Association, I was very glad to hear him begin by referring to the work which was carried on at The Hague, in my presence, but with very little intervention on my

767
part, under the very careful and admirable chairmanship of the right hon. Sir Henry Duke, President of the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division, who also gave his services the next year in London and under whose auspices, with the help of the leading shipowners, underwriters and persons interested in the shipping trade, both shippers and shipowners, these Rules have been, to my knowledge, most carefully adapted, minutely discussed and thought over.
They may, of course, like any other form of legislation, ultimately give rise to some nice questions of law, but I agree with what I understand Sir Norman Hill to have said to one noble Lord now present in this House, that for one case that comes before the Courts there will be a hundred cases that will not be brought up but will be determined by the general view of shipowners and shippers of the meaning of these clauses. I hope your Lordships will see no difficulty in passing this Bill into law, although I sincerely regret that it should be necessary to interfere with the freedom of commerce.
LORD SOUTHWARK: My Lords, I have not risen with the intention of entering into any detailed discussion of this measure, but merely, at the request of the Association of Chambers of Commerce, to convey to your Lordships a Resolution passed unanimously this morning at the annual meeting of that body. It is to this effect:—
"That this Association welcomes the introduction in the House of Lords, by the Lord High Chancellor, of a Bill for an Act to 'amend the Laws of carriage of goods by sea,' and requests the Executive Council to consider the provisions of the Bill and to watch its progress through Parliament, having regard to the provisions of The Hague Rules, 1921, and the draft Convention of the Brussels Diplomatic Conference, 1922, and urges that bulk cargoes should be excluded."
My only object is to convey to your Lordships this request of my colleagues of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, and I have no intention of doing more than to present that Resolution to your Lordships' notice.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with the consent of the House I may be allowed to say a few words in reply. I think the somewhat general criticisms of the noble Lord on my left are answered, first, by the fact that the Rules have been approved by one association after another,
768
bodies on which the chief business men of this country concerned with shipping have been present or have been represented; and, in the second place, by the resolution which has just been read by the noble Lord, Lord Southwark, which shows that the Chambers of Commerce unanimously approve of this Bill.
With regard to what was said by my noble and learned friend Lord Sumner, no one has a better title than he to criticise or consider a Bill of this kind. Notwithstanding some expressions which seemed to indicate a qualified confidence in certain parts of the Bill, I do not gather that he is hostile to the measure as a whole. He has, however, made a number of comments which, I think, deserve an answer. In the first place he refers to Clause 3 which, as he says, requires that everybody who issues a bill of lading which is subject to these provisions must insert a reference to the provisions of the Bill, and he points out, not unnaturally, that the penalty for failing to do so, as proposed by the Bill, is somewhat severe. I believe that the Canadian measure contains a somewhat similar provision, except that the maximum penalty there, is not £100 but $1000. I have paid great attention to what he said, and I will with pleasure consult my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade, who is mainly responsible for the introduction of this Bill into Parliament, and will see whether it may be possible to adopt one or other of the alternative suggestions made by the noble and learned Lord.
The second point which he made was to suggest that our Courts, in determining questions which arise under the Rules, should be at liberty to consider the decisions of the Courts of other countries as to their interpretation. I am sure that, like myself, the noble and learned Lord sees some difficulty about that suggestion. I should find it very difficult off-hand to frame a clause giving effect to it, but I quite realise that the matter needs to be considered, and I will see what can be done, although at the present moment I foresee grave difficulties.
The third point which the noble and learned Lord raised was this. He referred to the clause of the Bill under which it would not come into operation until an Order in Council was made, and he inferred, quite rightly, that

769
the object is, if possible, to get legislation of a corresponding character passed in the Dominions and in other countries whose representatives have agreed to these Rules. He asks that before the Bill passes out of your Lordships' control there should be issued a statement showing how that matter stands; that is to say, what similar legislation already exists in those countries, what they have agreed to do and how far they have progressed in carrying out that agreement. I think that is quite reasonable, and I will do my best to get such a statement prepared and issued, so that before the Bill passes from the hands of the House your Lordships will be in possession of the information desired. I think those are the main practical requests which the noble and learned Lord made, and with that explanation I hope your Lordships wilt give a Second Beading to the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FEES (INCREASE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I do not think I need detain your Lordships more than a very few minutes in attempting to explain the provisions of this Bill. As your Lordships are aware, the Bill received a good deal of amendment in another place, and I am given to understand that the form in which it reaches your Lordships' House is more or less an agreed one. The clauses of the Bill are mainly taken from the Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which was introduced by the late Government last year, to give effect to those recommendations of the Geddes Committee which required legislation, together with certain other provisions in the interests of economy suggested by the Department concerned. The Bill enables the Government Department to recover all or part of the cost of the different services which they perform. On reviewing the Economy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, it was thought best to make those of its clauses which dealt with fees charged by Government Departments the subject of a single Bill by themselves, and to leave the remaining provisions of
770
the Economy Bill to be dealt with otherwise.
The matters embraced in the Bill may be divided into three heads:—(1) Clauses 1, 2 and 3 relate to fees for services performed by the Board of Trade in connection with merchant shipping; (2) Clauses 4, 5 and 6 relate to fees for inquiries by Government Departments; (3) Clause 7, 8 and 9 relate to fees chargeable by Government Departments for miscellaneous matters. As to (1) (merchant shipping), the duties laid upon the Board of Trade by the Merchant Shipping Acts have two main objects, namely (a) the safety of the public and (b) the well-being of the crews. The Board's duty in relation to the safety of the public is to see that vessels are in such condition that passengers and goods can be transported by them in safety; its duty in relation to crews is to ensure that the latter are carried under reasonably healthy conditions. The fees chargeable for these services were fixed a long time ago, and for various reasons, such as the increase in the size of vessels and the shrinkage in the value of money, are now totally inadequate.
It may interest your Lordships to know that at the present time, as far as can be estimated, the cost of these services amounts to something like £420,000. The fees payable to-day by the shipping industry amount to £92,000. Under this Bill it is proposed—and this is being done with the concurrence of the shipowners—that the fees payable shall be increased from £92,000 to £210,000. In other words, you will see that the shipping industry will pay half of the cost of these services, and the Board of Trade the rest. This basis, as I have already said, was agreed with the shipowners, and takes into account the fact that the Board's duties are in the interest of the general public as well as in the interests of the shipping industry.
As regards fees for inquiries by Government Departments, the provisions of the Bill are designed to enable the cost of the inquiries (which are held under various Acts administered by the Departments concerned) to be met without being a charge upon the general body of taxpayers. Clauses 4, 5 and 6 provide for increasing the fees charged by the Board of Trade for certain tests of petroleum apparatus for local authorities, for registering particulars of firms and traders

771
under the Registration of Business Names Act, and for testing local authorities' standards of weight and measure, so as to place these services on a self-supporting basis.
With regard to the remaining clauses of the Bill, provision is made for new fees to be charged by the Home Office for licences to remove bodies after burial, and by the Foreign Office for certain duties, analogous to those of consuls, for which there is at present no power to charge when they are carried out in the United Kingdom, although if performed abroad they would be subject to consular fees.
That, my Lords, is a brief but general survey of the provisions contained in the Bill, and I hope that your Lordships will agree that it gives effect in a practical manner to certain specific recommendations and proposals as set forth in the Geddes Reports. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY): My Lords, the annual Bill that I now present to your Lordships is to all intents and purposes exactly the same Bill as was presented last year. There are one or two minor amendments, which were made in response to requests made in another place. There is, however, one other change which is not in the Bill, but which, nevertheless, is a change of somewhat great importance. Field punishment No. 1 has been abolished. That can be done simply by regulations, but it was urged in the House of Commons that the subject should be included in this Bill, to show that this punishment had been abolished and should remain abolished. It was left for decision in this House by my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State for War, after consultation with me. I am entirely in accord with the wishes of those who desire it to be placed in the Act, and before the Bill leaves this House I propose to ask your Lordships to insert an Amendment to that effect.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I understand the noble Earl to say that he is going to propose an Amendment to make the abolition of field punishment No. 1 a statutory provision. What does this punishment consist of at present? It has varied from time to time, under the King's Regulations, I suppose. Can the noble Earl tell us what it consists of at this moment? My recollection of it is that it has become very light indeed, but I should like to know what it is now, if he can tell us?
THE EARL OF DERBY: The part of field punishment No. 1 which was particularly appealed against was the tying up of men to a fixed object.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: A wheel.
THE EARL OF DERBY: Yes, to a wheel or to any other fixed object. In the war it was called a form of crucifixion. The actual form of tying up was modified, and that accusation could not be made against it. But we are going to insert words which will show that field punishment can no longer include the tying up of an individual to a fixed object.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: That is rather what I thought. It had already become something very light.
THE EARL OF DERBY: It might be very light, but there was a general feeling among military people, as well as among civilians, that it should be abolished, and therefore words carrying out what I have said is our intention—namely, that there should be no more tying of the soldier to a fixed object—will be inserted in the Bill.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: In the light of what the noble Earl has said, I shall not offer any opposition. I think a good deal of the debate in the other House on the subject was rather sentimental. I do not believe there has been any real hardship in any of the field punishments for a long time past, but there is a good deal of sentiment on this subject. However, we abolished flogging, which was quite right, and now the noble Earl is going to abolish tying up. That is also quite right, and certainly there will be no opposition from this side of the House.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committee to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at half-past six o'clock.

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 1st and the 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
CHELMSFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill; the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 27th of February and 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
DANGEROUS DRUGS AND POISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
To be read 2a on Wednesday next (The Earl of Onslow).
PLYMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 15th and 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a on Thursday next.
UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL. [H.L.]
House to be in Committee on Thursday next.
FEES (INCREASE) BILL.
House to be in Committee on Tuesday next.