Sitting of 24 November 1922

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Choir.
MEMBER SWORN.
Major Arthur Clive Morrison-Bell, County of Devon (Honiton Division) took the Oath and signed the Roll.
ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn till Monday next."—[Colonel Gibbs.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS,

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  Mr. AUBREY HERBERT: May I inquire if and when private notice questions can be asked?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has a right to put his question now.

  McGRIGOR'S BANK.
  Mr. A. HERBERTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any compensation will be paid from public funds to the sufferers in the McGrigor Bank failure; and what steps are being taken to prevent any further trouble of this kind in the future?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): The War Office have no legal liability whatever for any banking business conducted by Army agents, nor are they In any way responsible for such business. The Government, however, recognises a moral claim on behalf of those whose accounts directly originated through
  172
  Army connection with the firm as agents, and a supplementary Estimate will be laid with the object of giving them substantial relief, estimated at 10s. in the £ in addition to the existing assets. No guarantee of the stability of Army agents as bankers could be given by the War Office without extensive powers of control, and such guarantee and control would, in the opinion of the Army Council, be contrary to the public interest. The two existing Army agents— Messrs. Cox and Messrs. Holt—both publish audited balance sheets from which the public can judge the strength of their position. The Army Council see no reason whatsoever for departing from their custom of employing these firms as their agents. I should be glad if my Hon. Friend would repeat the second part of his Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer early next week.
  Sir JAMES REMNANT: May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he can tell the House how much it is expected to realise from the assets of this firm, and whether, in the event of their not being sufficient to pay, together with the Government proposal, the full 20s. in the £, as an act of justice to those who, by direction of the War Office employed this firm as their bankers especially during the War, he cannot see his way to recommend the Government to make up the amount, so that they shall not suffer any loss?
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: The liquidation of this firm is not sufficiently advanced for a final figure to be given, but it is estimated that the assets will enable a dividend of something more than 5s. in the £ to be paid. With regard to the latter part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question, he is under a misapprehension in suggesting that there was any compulsion on Army officers to bank with these agents who were responsible for their pay and the provision which the Government wish to recommend to the House in this matter must be looked upon as an ex gratia payment.
  Mr. LAWSON: May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman if he is aware that the Government refused to give any relief to working class depositors in Farrow's Bank and whether, after the decision of the War Office in this case, he will use

  173
  his influence with the Government for the purpose of gaining some relief for those working-class depositors?
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: The example of Farrow's Bank is in no way relevant to this case. The Government do not propose to make any grant to those depositors who had an account at McGrigor's Bank without any Army connection.
  Mr. WISE: May I ask who are the auditors of McGrigor's bank and whether the accounts were audited at all?
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: If the hon. Member will look at my answer he will see I made it plain that the War Office were in no way responsible for the finances of this bank. The legal responsibility of the War Office ceased when public money was paid by the bank to the account of the payee, either in this bank or wherever they may be directed to pay the money.
  Mr. N. MACLEAN: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether it is the ease that the money that was paid into this bank was paid only after instructions had been received by the War Office from individual officers in whose name it was to be paid, and, if that be so, will ho explain why the Government are taking this attitude with regard to people and banks for whom they are not responsible and are neglecting other banks where working-class depositors have suffered?
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: As I explained, there is no legal liability. In view of the fact that these Army agents carry out this work without any grant from the public funds to enable them to do so, the State during the War made a large profit out of the transaction, and the amount saved to the public by Army agents carrying out this work on behalf of the officers far exceeded the total amount which it is proposed to recommend be granted in this case.
  Mr. PRINGLE: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say the amount that this concession to depositors in McGrigor's Bank will cost the Treasury?
  Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: It is impossible to give a final figure, as the accounts have, to be examined with a view to dis-
  174
  tinguishing between those of Army officers and those which went to McGrigor's in the ordinary way of business.
  Mr. PRINGLE: Has no estimate been made?
  Mr. SULLIVAN: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us that he will use his influence with the Government to return to the miners some of the profits they made out of the mines, seeing that they are using profits as an argument why they should stand behind this bank.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put that question on the Paper.

IRISH FREE STATE BILLS.
Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he has any further particulars to indicate to the House regarding the method he proposes for dealing with the Irish Bills next week.
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Bonar Law): Yes, Sir. I expressed the hope that the Bills might be got through this House by Wednesday, but it is obvious that that can only be done if they are regarded as altogether non-controversial. The second Bill requires a Financial Resolution. It will therefore be necessary to get the Second Reading of both Bills on Monday and to take the Financial Resolution for the second Bill in Committee on Monday also. On Tuesday we shall take the Report stages of the Financial Resolution and the Committee stages of both Bills.

IRISH FREE STATE CONSTITUTION BILL,
"to provide for the Constitution of the Irish Free State," presented by the PRIME MINISTER; supported by Mr. Douglas Hogg and Mr. Ormsby-Gore; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 1.]
IRISH FREE STATE (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL,
"to make such provisions as are consequential on or incidental to the establishment of the Irish Free State" presented by the PRIME MINISTER; supported by Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Douglas Hogg, and Mr. Ormsby-Gore; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 2.]
PRECEDENCE FOR GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.

  BALLOT FOE BILLS AND MOTIONS.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I beg to move,
  "That, until the end of the Session, no Public Bills, other than Government Bills, be introduced, and no ballot be taken for determining the precedence of such Bills."
  Perhaps I may be allowed to say a word or two on the three Motions dealing with procedure which stand in my name on the Paper. In the first two, we are simply asking that the full time of the House shall be given to public business throughout the Session. As every Member of the House knows, this Session has been called for a special purpose, and, as there is very little time in which to get that work done, I venture to hope there will be no opposition to these Motions.
  The arrangement suggested in the third Motion was tried in the last Parliament and found to work successfully, and I do not think there will be any difference of opinion upon it.
  Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: With reference to the third Resolution, I think there will be no difficulty. I believe the arrangement was tried in the last Parliament, and met with the general consent of the House. "With reference, however, to the other two, I am afraid I cannot facilitate the right hon. Gentleman. We do not know how long the Session
  may last, but, whether it be long or short, the rights of private Members must be maintained. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we shall offer no objection to the quickest possible despatch of the Irish Bills, but there are other things that may crop up Yesterday, for instance, it was suggested that there might be some action taken regarding the Rent Restrictions Act. That can only be met with the strongest opposition on this side of the House. Moreover, we have not yet been put in possession of the. Government's unemployment policy. That may require very considerable discussion, and, if it be not forthcoming, that discussion may entail the use of their privileges by private Members in putting down Resolutions. Lausanne, a very important matter, is going on from day to day, and at any moment something may arise which would necessitate the intervention of the Opposition. We might require discussion, and we shall certainly, in those circumstances, be unwilling to forego any of the rights we have under the ordinary Standing Orders of the House. I regret, therefore, that I must offer opposition to the first and second Resolutions.
  Question put,
  "That, until the end of the Session, no Public Bills, other than Government Bills, be introduced, and no ballot be taken for determining the precedence of such Bills."
  The House divided: Ayes, 239; Noes, 135.

  Division No. 1.]

  AYES.

  [12.17 p.m.

  Alnsworth, Captain Charles

  Brown, Brlg.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Crook. C. W. (East Ham, North)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Crooke, J. S. (Deritend)

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Bruton, Sir James

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Davles, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Apsley, Lord

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Archer-Shee. Lieut.-Colonel Martin

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbrldge)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Aator, Viscountess

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cassels, J. D.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Balfour, Georqe (Hampstead)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchln)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Becker, Harry

  Chadwlck, Sir Robert Burton

  Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

  Bell, Lieut. Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Berry, Sir George

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

  Fildes, Henry

  Birchall, J. Dearman

  Clayton, G. C.

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Bird, Sir R. B. {Wolverhampton, W.)

  Coates, Lt.-Col. Norman

  Ford, Patrick Johnston

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cockerlll, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Foxcro t, Captain Charles Talbot

  Blundell, F. N.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

  Collie, Sir John

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Colvln, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Furness, G. J.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

  Gardiner, James

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Gates, Percy

  Briggs, Harold

  Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Britta n, Sir Harry

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir w. (Hack'y, N.)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Rodgerson, Captain J. E.

  Greenwood, William (Stockport)

  Lort-Williams, J.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

  Grigg. Sir Edward

  Lumley, L. R.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Lynn, R. J.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  M'Conned, Thomas E.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Halstead, Major D.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Shipwright, Captain D.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Somerville, D. G. (Barrow-ln-Furn'ss)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Sparkes, H. W.

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Moles, Thomas

  Stanley, Lord

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Stuart, Lord C. Cr chton-

  Hlder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Morrison, Hugh

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

  Sudden, W. H.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Murchlson, C. K.

  Sutcliffe, T.

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Thomson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Houfto, John Plowright

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Titchfleld, Marquess of

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hughes, Collingwood

  Paget, T. G.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles, N.)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Per ng, William George

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Jackson. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Pielou, D. P.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Jphcotr, A. R.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Whltla, Sir William

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Willey, Arthur

  Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Winterton, Earl

  Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wise, Frederick

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  King, Capt. Henry Douglas

  Remer, J. R.

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Remnant, Sir James

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-col. J. P.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Roborts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

  Colonel Gibbs and Major Barnston.

  Lorden, John William

  Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)

  NOES.

  Adamson. Rt. Hon. William

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and colne)

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Attlee, C. R.

  Groves, T.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertlliery)

  Grundy, T. W.

  March, S.

  Barnes, A.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Maxton, James

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvllt

  Mlddleton, G.

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Harbord, H.

  Millar, J. D.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hardle, C. D.

  Morel, E. D.

  Bromfield, William

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Brotherton, J.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Buchanan, G.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Muir, John W.

  Burnle, Major J. (Bootle)

  Herriotts, J.

  Murnin, H.

  Buxton, C. Roden (Accrington)

  Hill, A.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Nichol, Robert

  Cairns, Jhn

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. P. (Preston)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Chapple, W. A.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Oliver, George Henry

  Charleton, H. C.

  Irving, Dan

  Paling, W.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Jenkins, W, (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Collins, Pat (Walsall)

  Johnston, T.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Collison, Levi

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Potts, John S.

  Darbyshire, C. W.

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Riley, Ben

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G

  Ritson, J.

  Edmonds, G.

  Lansbury, George

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Lawson, John James

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Leach, W.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Foot, Isaac

  Lee, F.

  Royce, William stapleton

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Linfleld, F. C.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Greena l, T.

  Lunn, William

  Sexton, James

  178

  179

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Whiteley, W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Thornton, M.

  Wignall, James

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Tout, W. J.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Snell, Harry

  Warne, G. H.

  Wilson, R. J. (Durham, Jarrow)

  Snowden, Philip

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Wright, W.

  Spencer, George A. (Broxtewe)

  Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Steven, Campbell

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Weir, L. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Sullivan, J.

  Westwood, J.

  Mr. Spoor and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Motion made, and Question put, "That until the end of the Session, Government business do have precedence
  at every Sitting."—[The Prime Minister.]
  The House divided: Ayes, 268; Noes, 141.

  Division No. 2.]

  AYES.

  [12.31 p.m.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Apsley, Lord

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

  Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col, Wilfrid W.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Crooke, J. S. (Derltend)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Dawson, Sir P.

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Becker, Harry

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Edge, Captain sir William

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

  Elveden, Viscount

  Hughes, Collingwood

  Berry, Sir George

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A,

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Ersklne, James Malcolm Monteith

  Hurd, Percy A

  Birchall, J. Dearman

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Peebles. N.)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Evans. Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

  Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Jarrett, G. W. S.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

  Briggs, Harold

  Fildes, Henry

  Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Flanagan, W. H.

  King, Capt. Henry Douglas

  Brown, J. w. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Ford, Patrick Johnston

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Bruton, Sir James

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Furness, G. J.

  Lever, Sir Arthur L.

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon. Torquay)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Gates, Percy

  Lioyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Lorden, John William

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Lort-Williams, J.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

  Loyd, Arthur T. (Abingdon)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Greenwood, William (Stockport)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Lynn, R. J.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Grigg, Sir Edward

  M'Connell, Thomas E.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Guest, Col. Henry (Bristol, North)

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Clay. Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W.D'by)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Coates, Lt.-Col. Norman

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Colfox, Major Win. Phillips

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Collie, Sir John

  Harrison, F. C.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Sutcllffe, T.

  Moles, Thomas

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. p.

  Sutherland, Sir William

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir p. (Chrtsy)

  Sykes, Maj.-Gen. Frederick H.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Thomson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Rodgerson, Captain J. E.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honlton)

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Murchison. C. K.

  Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'deworth, Putney)

  Watson, Captain John Bertrand

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Wells, S. R.

  Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

  Shakespeare, G. H.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Sheffield. Sir Berkeley

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Paget, T. G.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Whitla, Sir William

  Parker. Owen (Kettering)

  Shipwright, Captain D.

  Willey, Arthur

  Penny, Frederick George

  Simms. Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Winterton, Earl

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Wise, Frederick

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Perring, William George

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

  Philipson, H. H.

  Somerville, D. G. (Barrow-in-Furn'ss)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Sparkes, H. W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Price, E. G.

  Stanley, Lord

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Rawson, Lieut-Corn. A. C.

  Stewart, Gershom

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Golonel Gibbs and Major Barnston.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Remer, J. R.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Ritson, J.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Alexander, A. v. (Sheffield, Hlllsbro')

  Herriotts, J.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hill, A.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. P. (Preston)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Barnes, A.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Sexton, James

  Batey, Joseph

  Irving, Dan

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  John. William (Rhondda, West)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Bonwick, A.

  Johnston, J. (Stirling)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Broad, F. A.

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Bromfield, William

  Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Sitch, Charles H,

  Brotherton, J.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Buchanan, G.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.

  Snell, Harry

  Burnle, Major J. (Bootle)

  Lansbury, George

  Snowden, Philip

  Buxton, C. Roden (Accrington)

  Lawson, John James

  Spencer, George A.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Leach, W.

  Steven, Campbell

  Cairns, John

  Lee, F.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Cape, Thomas

  Linfield, r. C.

  Sullivan, J.

  Chapple, W. A.

  Lunn, William

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Mac Donald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Thornton, M.

  Collins, Pat (Walsall)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Tout, W. J.

  Collison, Levl

  March, S.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Darbyshire, C. W.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Maxton, James

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Middleton, G.

  Warne, G. H.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Millar, J. D.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Dunnico, H.

  Morel, E. D.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edmonds, G.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Joslah C.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Weir, L. M.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Muir, John W.

  Westwood, J.

  Foot, Isaac

  Murnin, H.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Whiteley, W.

  Greenall, T.

  Murray, R, (Renfrew, Western)

  Wignall, James

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Nichol, Robert

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Oliver, George Henry

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Groves, T.

  Paling, W.

  Wilson. C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Wilson, R. J. (Durham, Jarrow)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Wright, W.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Potts, John S.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Harbord, H.

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Hardle, C. D.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Riley, Ben

  Mr. Spoor and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  FRIDAY SITTINGS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed;
  "That, during the present Session, the House do meet on Fridays at Eleven o'clock, and that Pour o'clock and half-past Four o'clock be substituted for Five o'clock and half-past Five, respectively, as the hours for the interruption of Business and Adjournment of the House on that day."—[The Prime Minister.]
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I should like to make an observation on this Motion, to the effect that, in the first place, I regret that the Motion was not put down earlier. I suppose it could not have been put down yesterday; but I think some arrangement might have been made, so that the House could have met to-day at Eleven o'clock, instead of Twelve o'clock. Secondly, without going into details, I should like to know whether the time has not come when the hours of the Sittings of this House should not be reconsidered. I believe the usual reason put forward for the present arrangement of meeting at 2.45 p.m. and sitting until Eleven or Twelve
  184
  o'clock at night is that it suits the legal profession. I think we have fewer lawyers in this House than in any previous House, and, therefore, it is to be hoped that we shall get on better with our business. In any case, the present hours of the Sittings of the House are unhealthy They are bad for good legislation. I do not mean- that nothing good can be done after Eleven o'clock at night. But at Eleven o'clock people are tired. I know that I am myself.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The question of the hours of sitting of the House on days other than Friday does not arise on this Motion.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Would it be in order to move to leave out the words "on Fridays," which would make it every day at eleven o'clock, and would be a much better arrangement?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That would be going far beyond the scope of the Resolution.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  KING'S SPEECH.

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.
    [SECOND DAY.]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [23rd November].
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:
    MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Captain Brass.]
    Question again proposed.

    FOREIGN AFFAIRS.
    Captain BERKELEY: I confess to a feeling that, in inflicting myself on the House, so soon in my Parliamentary life, I seem to be wanting in the observance of the wholesome rule that people who are young and inexperienced ought to be seen and not heard. I would not venture to take up the time of the House were it not that, in the Debate which has taken place so far, one subject which seems to me to be of overwhelming general importance has escaped discussion. I am very anxious to call attention to the overwhelming importance of foreign affairs at this moment. I do not pose as an expert on that matter, I am not. But I envy anyone who can look at the present situation on the Continent without the deepest misgiving. Wherever one looks one sees the same sight, either a nation in ruin or a nation being dragged down to ruin. The position of the Continental exchanges seems to go from bad to worse. Everything seems to point to the necessity for serious international co-operation to relieve this state of affairs. The hon. Member for Clitheroe (Captain Brass) who moved the Address said that the apparent bankruptcy on the Continent was only what he called a monetary bankruptcy. I cannot let that pass. It seems to me to go far deeper than that. It seems to me to be a bankruptcy of hope and endeavour. Where-ever one looks there is a kind of fixed and awful despair seizing upon the Central European peoples. Some countries are in such a pitiable economic state that they do not seem to be able to nerve themselves to check this
    186
    terrible downward tendency. What I would impress most on the House is that that kind of despair is the half-brother, if not the full brother, of international violence. That is the kind of atmosphere in which thoughts of war flourish. That is the first danger in the international situation to-day, which I am anxious to point out.
    There is also another danger. At the moment, unless I have misread the statements of policy made from time to time on behalf of the Government, we seem to be basing our foreign policy on what I would call a group system, understandings between what we used to call the principal Allies during the War, especially the friendly Powers of France and Italy. Those friendships and understandings are all very well, so far as they go. So far as they go I am all for them, but I do not want them to be exclusive. History surely tells us that foreign policy based purely on the group system is sure to be met by a counter group. I would ask the House to consider whether a counter group is not at this very moment in the process of formation. During the Genoa Conference, which was a great effort on the part of the late Government, for which they must receive a great deal of thanks even though it failed, an understanding, some people believe, a military understanding—and there are good grounds for the belief—was entered into between Germany and Russia. Later than that, during the Near Eastern crisis, it seemed that there was some similar understanding between Russia and the Angora Government—at least there was reciprocity between them. If we continue to base our foreign policy upon the group system and on an exclusive alliance with the principal Allied Powers, that group will most assuredly be met by a Russo-Turko-German entente. That is the second danger in the existing situation.
    This is not a criticism in any way of the Lausanne Conference. That is a temporary Conference called to meet a particular state of affairs. It may well achieve its purpose, and I am sure that everyone on this side of the House hopes that it will. But what I am criticising is the revival of the group system, which was the basis of our foreign policy before the War, and which, it seems to me, did not do so well for itself as to make it a very desirable basis for our foreign policy in

    187
    the future. I submit that the step, which I understand we are taking in our foreign policy at this moment, is the first step towards dividing Europe again into two camps. And once you divide the Continent into two camps it seems to me that it will not be much longer before they become two armed camps. Another danger is that if you base your foreign policy on the group system you may give umbrage in some way to some of the Powers in your own camp by refusing to give some advantage, or by finding yourself unable to agree with their particular line of policy. If that happens, it may end by driving your Allies from your camp into the other camp. There have been instances of that in modern times. Therefore if you pursue this system you have constantly to be compromising yourself and compromising your own foreign policy by giving what may be called a quid pro quo. The Leader of the Opposition gave an instance of that yesterday, when he drew attention to a bargain which had been concluded between two countries, during the Lausanne Conference, by which one country is to get a port in the territories of a third country and a second country, for supporting this, is to receive specially favourable treatment for its contractors in connection with some harbour works. That seems to be another great danger of this group system. It encourages bargains at the expense of other people.
    I do not want to be destructive in my criticism. If I may, I would venture deferentially to associate myself with what Viscount Grey said yesterday in the House of Lords:
    "The foreign policy of this country is something that ought to be quite above party."
    No one can be insensible to the difficulties which the Government has to face in orienting its foreign policy. It is very easy for us to criticise over here, but they have to decide upon a line and take the responsibility for what they do. But I want deferentially to urge upon the Government an alternative foreign policy. I want them to consider whether the League of Nations is not a better basis for our foreign policy than the group system. Everyone talks about the League as being something that is young. It is quite true that it
    188
    is young. But it is growing. If you compare its record with the record of the group system in the past four years, I think any unbiased observer will agree that the balance of achievement is very much in favour of the League. Take a couple of illustrations. The solution of the very serious dispute between Sweden and Finland was successfully brought about. The Upper Silesian problem, which the Supreme Council gave up in despair, was also (successfully solved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question?"] It seems to be working very satisfactorily. On the other hand it is very difficult, if you take the whole record of the Supreme Council, to point to any definite and substantial achievement in the whole time since the armistice. Critics of the League say that it is incomplete. If it is incomplete, I submit that we have only the group system to thank for that.
    If this country had resolutely refused to go on with the Supreme Council policy and had insisted upon doing its international business through the League from the beginning, both Germany and Russia would already have applied for admission. I will go further than that. I believe that if the last Government had made up its mind to carry out the Genoa policy, which was a good policy, a policy for promoting peace—if they had carried out the Genoa Policy through the League, I believe that Germany, and probably Russia, would be in the League to-day. I do not want anything I have said to seem to belittle the efforts that the head of the last Government made to bring about international peace. If I may very humbly say so, I think that those efforts were directed through the wrong channel. But we ought to recognise that the Genoa Conference was a serious attempt to bring about disarmament in Europe, and disarmament in Europe is really the only way in which a great reduction in expenditure is to be brought about. The Prime Minister said yesterday that if Home Rule had not become a Party issue the whole question of Ireland might have been settled long ago. I was very much impressed by that statement. Therefore, I am most anxious that the question of the League of Naitons should not be a party issue in this House or in the country. It is a great mistake that it should be looked upon as the panacea which only one party will apply. At present all parties in the House, and

    189
    most Members of the House, unite in paying tribute to the ideal of the League. I would urge this: Cannot they unite to make it a practical reality in Europe? These are my reasons for appealing to the Prime Minister to give it a leading place in his scheme of foreign policy.
    1.0 P.M.
    Mr. AUBREY HERBERT: Before I say anything else, perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken on his maiden speech. I feel sure that the whole House appreciates the reasoned statement he has made. Also I would like to congratulate the Prime Minister on his great majority and on his conciliatory policy. There is a Latin proverb which says that you must say nothing but good of the dead. If historians acted upon that proverb history would never be written. There is an English saying that you must never strike anyone who is down. If politicians acted upon that precept I do not know how you would ever form a policy, for the present has its roots in the past, and it is only by looking at the mistakes of the past that you can correct those mistakes and have a new policy. If anything that I say hurts the feelings of the late Prime Minister, I regret it. I wish to refer to our foreign policy in its relation to the Greeks and the Turks. Let me deal briefly with the situation as it was after the armistice. We won the War with the help of Indian Moslems. We went to Constantinople, and the first trouble arose because of the suggestion to convert the Mosque of St. Sophia into a Christian church. That violated Moslem sentiment. The next thing was that we sent Greek troops into peaceful Smyrna. We took the one great port in that part of the world away from the Turks, against every pledge that we had made in the past. That violated Turkish interests. Interests and sentiment combined against us, and we had unrest throughout the East.
    But our activities did not stop there. Having done that against every pledge, we partitioned the whole of the Ottoman Empire. In the old days the Ottoman Empire was an economic unit, a primitive economic unit, if you like, but still a mat, When you divide economic units you destroy the possibility of economic life. There is no victory in the world that will make rivers Row uphill and corn grow immediately in the desert.
    190
    Even the last Government seemed finally to appreciate that fact. Let me give one illustration of how very complex in this whole question. Take the case of the Kurds. The Kurds depend politically upon Turkey, and economically upon Iraq. When you divide up the thing you make it almost impossible to deal with people of that nature. If the House will allow me I should like to speak for a few moments on the question of Iraq. It again was an important part of that economic unity. There is really no dividing frontier between Iraq and Turkey. What happened? We went to Iraq, and we practically annexed the whole of that country. Having done so we went far beyond even what the Turks had done. We occupied territories the Turks had never attempted to conquer. We taxed the people in three times the amount in which the Turks had taxed them. Where the Turks had punished them with whips we chastised them with scorpions. The result was a very fierce rebellion which was only quenched at the expense of a great deal of blood and money. What followed immediately after that? Economy followed. Economy, a poor girl in a hair shirt, chaperoned by Mr. Churchill, was brought in. I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman is not here to answer. [HON. MEMRFRS: "We are not."] Mr. Churchill attempted to do two things at once. He attempted to keep he whole of Iraq for the Empire, and he attempted to serve the taxpayer by policing it economically with aeroplanes. That is perfectly impossible. You cannot police a country with aero planes, and you cannot gather your taxes with aeroplanes. It is as preposterous as trying to control the traffic in the Strand with a griffin, and a foreign griffin at that. That kind of tiling has never succeeded all through history. Take any part of the Empire. No chief authority will enforce discipline by aeroplanes. Before the Treaty the Commander-in-Chief would not hear of aeroplanes in Ireland. Lord Allenby would not have them in Egypt, and, going back to the days of the War, what was it that really aroused the great feeling against Germany in this country? It was the use of aeroplanes. I believe men will forgive the use of almost any lethal weapon against which they can retaliate; what they will not forgive is death being poured out with perfect immunity to those who pour it

    191
    out. Besides which, with your aeroplanes you are always liable to hit the wrong people and generally do hit the wrong people. There has been a great cry lately that we should get out of Iraq bag and baggage. I should like to ask the House to consider two sides of that question. First of all, after we went there we set up King Feisal who had done us very gallant service in the War and we promised the Arabs a Free State. I think our obligations demand that we should give King Feisal all the help we can in the way of advice and possibly in the way of loan, but what we cannot do is to go on pouring battalions into Iraq. We have set up the Free State, and if that Free State is not going to exist then that experiment in government will have to come to an end. That is one side. Then let us take the other point—our own position in Iraq. If that experiment in government fails, I think all that is left to us is then to retire to the province of Basra and to stay behind the strategic lines of Ahwaz, Kurna, Nasriyeh. We have to distinquish very clearly between what we need and what we want in Iraq. There are some people who want to get hold of that country to get the oil and corn. That has got to wait. The thing we need is security for our position.
    Let me pass from Iraq to deal very briefly with Turkey. Let me at once say I very much welcome the fact that we have given an asylum to the Sultan of Turkey. I welcome it from this point of view only—that it is a very ancient British tradition to give sanctuary to the unfortunate but I should think it lament able if it meant we were going to interfere in the internal politics of Turkey That, to my mind, was the very great mistake of the last Government and the last Prime Minister. It always recoils and brings calamity after it. It was after playing golf with the late Prime Minister that M. Briand fell. It was after the late Prime Minister showered favours upon M. Venizelos that the Greek people turned to King Constantine. It was after he had sent the> Greeks to Asia Minor and made that great speech of 4th August that the ruin of the Greek Army was complete. In fact Asia and Europe are scattered with the ruins of the right hon. Gentleman's friends and victims. With regard to Turkey definite
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    pledges made to her have been broken. Now the Turks have conquered they come as conquerors, and I can only hope they will remember our own example at Versailles and not ask for things which are impossible. Let me only take a very few points. There is first the question of reparations. I hope the Turks will not talk a great deal about reparations. Then there is the question of Thrace. Thrace was always promised to them, and there should be no difficulty in settling that question, especially with the help of the League of Nations. Then there is the very thorny question of the capitulations. The capitulations have two sides—one entirely bad and the other good, but I believe something else should be put in their place. Lastly, there is the most important question of the Christian minorities in Turkey. One of the real reasons why these minorities have suffered as they have suffered, is that they were made the instruments of our policy. Put yourselves in the place of the Christians in Asia Minor. The Christian there is told that he has to fight the Turks. On the other hand, put yourselves in the place of the Turks. Supposing we had had a Sinn Fein minority scattered all over this country during the War and Germany had told these Sinn Feiners in England, that as allies of Germany, they had got to rise against England. Do not you think something would have happened to those Sinn Feiners in England? That is an exactly parallel case with what has occurred in Asia Minor.
    I read this morning with great admiration the speech made last night by the Prime Minister. There is only one point on which I do not entirely agree with him. He said the Turks had refused to have anything to do with the League of Nations. Perhaps I am not competent to answer, but I believe that up to now the Turks have only had a one-sided offer relating to the Christian minorities in Asia Minor. I am quite certain if it is proposed to them that their own minorities in Europe will receive exactly the same guarantee as the Christian minorities in Asia Minor there is every hope of a solution of that question. In conclusion, I would like to say this. I have said nothing about the Conference at Lausanne, because, however humble a position one may occupy, I think probably the least said about that Conference the better; but may I say

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    that I very much hope, for its own sake and for its results, that at every step the League of Nations will be consulted.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Herbert) has made an attack on the Eastern policy of the late Government. I am not likely to quarrel with him for that, because my position is an indictment of all Governments for about thirty or forty years on the Near Eastern question. It is at least forty-five years since I went into. Hyde Park under the leadership of the late Mr. Bradlaugh to support the policy of Mr. Gladstone in regard to the Near East. One of the Christian races of the Near East whom Mr. Gladstone endeavoured to rescue forty-five years ago was the Armenians, and the last speech that Mr. Gladstone delivered was a speech in favour of the Armenians. My friend Mr. Devlin, whose absence from the House we all regret, gave me a very graphic description of Mr. Gladstone at that last meeting of his. Although he was an old man—he was nearly ninety at the time and within, a few months of his death—when he got up to speak on the question of the cruelties towards and the butcheries of Armenians he was a young man who was speaking. It is forty-five years since the agitation for the Armenians began. Let me tell the House the net result. Forty-five years ago the Armenians numbered just over 5,000,000. To-day, forty-five years after Mr. Gladstone raised the question, and with the universal support of the nation at that time, because it was the policy of the Near East that enabled him to break down she great power of Lord Beacons-field, to-day, after all the pledges, and all the promises, and all the agitation, the net result to the Armenians is that their 5 millions have been reduced to something over 3,000,000–2,000,000 of the Armenian Christians butchered as the result of forty-five years of agitation and forty-five years of repeated pledges of the most solemn character on the part of this Government and many other European Governments towards the Armenian people.
    I have been silent on this question, both by my pen and my tongue, for many-months. It is not that I did not feel strongly. I do not think I ever saw a more shameful exhibition of inhuman, unchristian, and unintelligent expressions
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    than I saw in the Press during the more vital moments of the controversy on the Near East. The nature of some of the attacks and some of the policies in regard to the Near East was perfectly extraordinary and shameful. I see that that campaign is still pursued. I took up a daily paper a few days ago, and I found that among the personalities at Lausanne was a gentleman who was described as
    "the sinister figure of M. Venizelos."
    M. Venizelos risked his own life, risked the life and the security of his country, in order to stand by England and her Allies in the late War, and the reward to be given him is
    "the sinister figure of M. Venizelos,"
    who is at Lausanne as the representative of his Government to defend the interests of his country. I have been silent, too, because I have great confidence in the present Foreign Secretary, and outside Ireland I have great confidence in my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill), who represents the Foreign Office in this House, and I should like to congratulate him most heartily on what I regard as a tardy recognition of his great Parliamentary gifts.
    I have made it a rule all my political life never to interfere with the Foreign Office of this country when great and vital interests are at stake, unless I am strongly of opinion that their policy is on the wrong lines. I do not feel that to be so on the part of the Foreign Secretary and the Government at Lausanne. I believe they are trying to do the best they can, but may I take this opportunity of expressing my own views with regard to the right policy of this country at Lausanne? I do so also because I think it right that the opinion of this country and of its representative Chamber on this question should be made known to all the world. Some newspapers published in this country a sort of Te Deum on the victory of the Turks over the Greek Army in Asia Minor, and I felt almost inclined to pinch myself to be sure that this victory was not regarded as an English victory. There could not have been more pæans if English soldiers had beaten the Turks or the Greeks. I will not deal with the general question of atrocities and of the alleged provocation between the two parties to this trouble in the Near East, but by way of bringing both to the minds of

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    some of the gentlemen who rejoiced on the defeat of the Greek Army, I will read one little passage with regard to what took place in Smyrna. It does not come from a newspaper item or a political source; it has the full veracity of an English lady called Mrs. Marty, who, I understand, was the last Englishwoman to leave Smyrna and who was one of the very large British Colony that lived in that city.
    "She saw people bayoneted by the advancing Turks. In one instance twelve Greek girls were dragged away by the Turks and taken into a house. The next morning their bodies were found mutilated in the streets. They had been murdered after being ravished."
    These are the things that led some of the journals of this country to rejoice over the victory of the Turks. [An HON. MEMBER: "What did the Greeks do in the retreat?"] I am glad that question has been asked, though I must say I am somewhat surprised at finding these Turcophile expressions from a Member of the Labour party. I should have thought that the fundamental principle of that party was the principle of humanitarianism. I am asked if the Greeks did not commit atrocities. I asked that question of M. Venizelos, and I think he gave the correct answer. He said. "You must compare the comparable." Atrocities committed by retreating and excited troops are not unknown in almost all armies—in all armies in the world. But when troops are retreating, when there is sniping, as there always is, from houses, they of course see red. They saw red in Dublin at the rebellion of 1916, and deplorable atrocities are committed even by civilised troops, although I must say I think they are infinitely rare in all the armies of civilised countries like our own. But atrocities committed by retreating, excited and defeated troops are one thing, and atrocities which are a deliberate government policy, carried out under government direction, and under government instruction, and as a system of policy, are quite a different thing. That is my answer to my hon. friend.
    I hear a great deal about respect for Mahommedan opinion, and I share the feeling. I question the religion of no man and of no race. One of the greatest and most illustrious atheists and litterateurs who ever lived in France, Littré,
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    the author of the great dictionary, when asked what attitude he took up towards religious faith when he had no faith, replied:
    "There is so much misery in the human lot, that I am not going to destroy any consolation which religion may give."
    If a religion like the Mahommedan can appeal to millions of human beings, it must appeal to their hearts, and I am not going to criticise. But when I am asked to go the length of allowing Mahommedans to butcher Christians, because the3' are Christians, my toleration is at an end. I will not admit the doctrine that Mahommedans have a right to butcher Christians because they are Christians, or Christians to butcher Mahommedans because they are Mahommedans. We are told a great deal about Mahommedan feeling in India. I think it would be criminal on my part, or on the part of any member of this House, to add anything to the enormous difficulties of our own people and our own representatives in India by exciting Mahommedan feeling. But, really, those who have been acclaiming these Turkish victories are going the wrong way in dealing with Mahommedan opinion. The Turkish army was a triumphant army, overflowing, insolent after its triumph, and for Christian Europe to give up Christian lives and Christian policy because of the acts of a successful Mahommedan army is the way, not to decrease, but to increase our difficulties in India.
    What do I ask the Government to do? An hon. Member in the Labour party asked whether the Greeks did not commit some excesses. Their troops did, but I put on one side the action of a number of soldiers, and I take the deliberate action and policy of the Government. What is the policy of the Greeks with regard to the Mahommedans? They have nearly half a million Mahommedan subjects under their rule. These Mahommedan subjects have exactly the same rights, political, social and religious, as the Greek inhabitants. I will tell the House something more which will surprise it. There are in the Greek Parliament 40 Mahommedan members, out of a Greek Chamber of 360. Is 40 a small number? I think we shall have some evidence, before this Parliament comes to a close, that 40 members of a group can be a very powerful factor in a body even

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    of 615 members. These Mahommedans are free to speak, are listened to with attention, and are free to vote. They have 40 votes. Ministers in Greece are sometimes either kept in power or driven from power by a majority of two or three votes. To compare a civilised country, dealing in a civilised fashion with this Mahommedan population, with a Government the deliberate policy of which has been the destruction of minorities, is one of the most ridiculous Analogies I have ever heard.
    What do we demand that our representatives at Lausanne should do? I dismiss as impossible the demand for Western Thrace. I think that is out of court altogether. Of course, the first thing they have got to do, if they can, is to keep the Entente together. That is the very basis of our policy. They have got to take real precautions, real guarantees—not paper guarantees—for the safety of the Christian minorities that are left under the control of the Turks. Let me take first the case of Asia Minor. What happened there? Immediately after the successful advance of the Turks, all the males, from 18 to nearly 50 years of age. who had not been able to get away in the short time by vessels, were deported into the interior. I hope my hon. Friend will communicate to Lord Curzon that one of the questions which ought to be asked is, What is to become of those people? I believe they number upwards of 100,000. Are they going to be butchered? Are they going to be put into conscript labour battalions; and then sent, as many of their relatives were sent, into the most desolate parts of Asia, Minor, there to perish slowly to death? What is to become of the 45,000 men of the Greek Army, including, I believe, about 1,500 officers? Will not our Government insist that there shall be an exchange of prisoners between Turkey and Greece? I believe there are about half that number of Turkish prisoners in Greek hands. They are perfectly safe there. Would it not be right to insist that there should be an exchange of these prisoners, and that the 45,000 of the Greek Army should not be subjected to the horrors of such imprisonment as they would get in Asia Minor?
    For the Christian minorities there should be real guarantees, not sham ones,
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    and guarantees not merely for the safety of life, for that is necessary; not merely for the safety of property, though that is necessary, but for the absolute equality and free practice of their religion and the control of their schools. I do not know what form the protection of these minorities will take, but I think certainly, in some form or other, these Christian minorities of the East should be under the tutelage of some international body like the League of Nations. I think it would be a necessary supplement to this that we should in the first place have a limitation of the army and gendarmerie in Eastern Thrace and the other parts which have been restored in Asia Minor. We should have, too, only a certain number of the army and gendarmerie, and we ought to have European commissioners and officers to control and to report, and if not to control certainly to observe and report. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Turkish sovereignty?"] My hon. Friend on the Labour Benches is really out of date. The sovereignty of the Turkish Government ceased to exist 75 years ago. I wish it would cease to exist altogether, because I regret to think that the Christian lands taken from the Turks and restored to civilisation and released from barbarism should not continue so, and I think history will back up my views in these matters.
    I come to the question of religion. Doubtless the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who is new to the Office, has a number of papers with him, but I do not know whether this fact has come to his knowledge, that actually in Anatolia already, just after the Turks had resumed their sovereignty there, and I trust my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will note what I am saying on this point—in Anatolia—I do not know whether they have succeeded in carrying it out—the Turkish authorities demanded that the services of the Greek Orthodox Church should be celebrated in Turkish. You might as well ask a Catholic to have his religion celebrated in Turkish. It is a violation of the rights of the minority. Already in the schools preparations have been made, if not carried out, for compelling the children to abandon their Greek or Armenian languages and speak only Turkish. It reminds one of what Germany did in Alsace-Lorraine, a course which helped to bring about the Great War.

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    These are things which I desire to impress upon my hon. Friend. These are things on which our Government are to take a stand. Christian Europe has not a good reputation in dealing with these issues. The people have been butchered, Armenian and Greek, while Christian Europe has been protesting. Behind the Christian Governments there has been a force, and I put this before those who are Turcophile—the force of high finance. I do not hold the peoples of these Christian countries responsible for this, but I have in my mind the strong conviction that Christian blood has been flowing, has been sold for £'s and francs and lires. The situation has not been aided by the ridiculous jealousies between the Powers concerned, and it is a poor explanation of the fact that while we have been protesting and pledging and promising, millions of Christian lives have been sacrificed.
    Mr. HERBERT FISHER: Let me in the first place offer my congratulations to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) upon his successful maiden speech. He touched upon fundamental questions of foreign policy with tact and good sense. In particular I admire his references to the functions and the importance of the League of Nations. I agree with him that the League of Nations has proved itself to be a very valuable instrument for the settlement of international difficulties, and that it has done a great deal of important international work which no other agency could have done, or could have done so veil. I will go further and say that I think it will be found the most important instrument, if properly used, in promoting that great cause which every Member of this House has at heart, the protection of Christian minorities under Turkish rule.
    I do not propose to enter into the discussion which has been initiated by the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. A. Herbert) who always brings so much knowledge and experience to bear upon foreign questions, and which was followed up by my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. O'Connor). The one hon. Member is a protagonist of the interests of the Greek and the other of the Turk. I will only make one observation with respect to some criticism of the late Prime Minister which fell from the lips of the
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    hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil. He lamented the partition of Turkey. He regarded it to be the source of all the present misfortunes and evils which vex Asia Minor. But the partition of Turkey was a policy, not initiated by the late Prime Minister, but inherited from preceding Governments. If therefore, the partition of Turkey be a great error, that error must not be laid at the doors of the late Government. Reference has been made on both sides of the House to the importance of the Conference which is proceeding at Lausanne. I agree that it is an all-important Conference. We cannot exaggerate the size of the issues which that Conference has to determine. Of course I do not wish to ask the Prime Minister any questions which may prove to be embarrassing in respect of the issues to be raised at that Conference, but I wish to enter on behalf of the group with which I am associated one caveat. A great many speakers have referred to the importance of protecting the interests of the Christian minorities under Turkish rule. I remember when I was at. Geneva last September I received a deputation of Armenians and they said to me:
    "You need not worry about Christian minorities in Asia Minor. There are no Christian minorities in Asia Minor. The Turks have wiped them out."
    Indeed, nobody who has read the terrible indictment, framed in apparently credible reports with respect to the massacres that have taken place in Armenia and the Pontus, can fail to have realised that there is a large element of truth in that statement. Therefore I regard it as a most important duty incumbent upon British statesmen to see that the interests of Christian minorities in Thrace and Asia Minor are adequately protected.
    But that is not the only interest which we have in these negotiations. We have also an interest in the freedom of the Straits. We believe that no treaty with Turkey can be satisfactory, or would be regarded as satisfactory by the British people, which did not adequately secure the freedom of the Straits under some form of international control. When I say the Straits, I mean both sides of the Straits. I know it has been said that the freedom of the Straits is a mere phrase. I have heard it also stated that this is an interest which only arises in case of war, and which only affects us

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    in case of our being involved in war. I recall the fact that when Turkey was at war with Italy in regard to Tripoli the Straits were closed against British commerce. Therefore, we have a great interest in securing the freedom of the Straits, whether Turkey is at war or whether she is not at war with us. I believe that a satisfactory arrangement could easily be made under the ægis of the League of Nations that would secure the freedom of the Straits, which was the principal object for which we fought the war in that part of the world. I do not of course expect from the Prime Minister or the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs any pronouncement upon this subject now. I only wish to enter a caveat on the part of the group with which I am associated, that we do regard the freedom of the Straits as an all important national interest.
    I wish to ask another question. We have learned that the Government is now engaged in investigating our commitments in Iraq, and that is a very serious and important subject. In another place the late Government has been very severely criticised for its commitments in Iraq. I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he will undertake to lay papers relating to the Iraq agreement and our negotiations with the Arabs preceding that agreement, because, in my belief, such information has never been laid before the House, and therefore we are not in possession of the facts which are material to an allotment of responsibility as between the late Government and its predecessor. I should also like to ask the Prime Minister what steps will be taken to renew the pact of Genoa which, as hon. Members well know, was framed for the purpose of securing peace on the western border of Russia. It was framed at a period when there was great uneasiness in Es honia, Poland and Rumania with respect to the alleged military preparations of the Soviet Government. I believe the pact is due to expire in a month or two, and I should be glad to receive some information from the Treasury Bench as to what steps have been taken in regard to its renewal.
    There is one last question which I wish to put to the Prime Minister. We are all aware of the immense importance of the question of reparations, which lies at
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    the root of many of our commercial and industrial difficulties. I am glad to know that the Prime Minister is shortly to meet M. Poincaré, with a view to attempting to arrive at a settlement of this difficult and thorny question. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would be prepared to give a day for the discussion of the question of reparations I It is obviously a matter of great interest now to know what line the Government propose to take with respect to this important issue. Those are the points which I wish very briefly to raise.
    With respect to the Gracious Speech from the Throne, I have nothing to say. So far as has been disclosed, the Government appear to be pursuing, or endeavouring to pursue, the course which had already been marked out by their predecessors, and so long as it does pursue that course His Majesty's Government will receive no opposition or embarrassment from those benches. We are all aware of the very great difficulties which confront His Majesty's Government in the conduct of its foreign policy, and in particular we wish to say nothing to embarrass the negotiations now proceeding at Lausanne. We do, however, attach very great importance to adequate measures being taken for securing the freedom of the Straits which we regard, and which our Dominions regard, as one of the principal objects for which the war was waged in the Turkish Empire.
    Mr. NOEL BUXTON: This question has so far been treated from the political and humanitarian point of view, but we must not forget that it is also connected with another part of the Gracious Speech, namely, that referring to unemployment, because the trade of the Near East has been no mean fraction of the trade which this country has done in the past, and we are faced, if not with the practical extinction at all events with an immense reduction in our exports to countries where we had until lately the premier place, and that has had a repercussion of a serious kind upon unemployment in this country. On that point, may I just adduce evidence, which is interesting, from a source friendly to the Government. A paper known as the "Near East" points out that the present policy to which Turkey has been driven has resulted in banishing and exporting the non-Turkish population of Asia Minor. The Turks are sweeping away all that is essential to their

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    agriculture and their industry. We who know those countries are aware that in the community which populates the Turkish lands all the most essential trades have generally been conducted entirely by non-Turks.
    The special interest of the Labour party-is not confined to home questions or to immediate matters of wages. The Labour parry takes a world-view, a statesman's view of affairs other than those of immediate home interests, and the party has been distinguished from other parties by defining its position in much greater detail upon a multiplicity of foreign questions. In particular, on this matter it has given its views to the world, after elaborate study, on the question of the capitulations, on the question of the Straits, and on the question of minorities. If any other party has uttered equally erudite utterances on these points, I have not been fortunate enough to see them. The Near East question, in its general bearing, is, of course, a very complicated question, but one part of it is fairly simple, and is of most importance—the general question which we regard as that of self-determination. I leave aside now matters of financial interest and the very vexed question of what has been the effect of French policy, on which it is, perhaps, better for the moment to say nothing. The Labour party takes a different point of view from that of other parties in a marked respect. We have been accustomed to a time-honoured phrase—"British interests." We on these benches feel that British interests have not been rightly understood. There are other interests than those which I have heard supported from Conservative Benches in past Parliaments. We look upon one essential British interest as being the general prosperity of the world and the self-determination of peoples on just principles—self-determination which must go with a genuine League of Nations.
    2.0 P.M.
    In the Near East, self-determination is the most important subject to discuss, because I am afraid we must admit, after all we have heard about the protection of minorities in the Turkish Empire, that the only genuine protection for those people is the establishment of self-government for them. The question is going to be exceedingly difficult because, even if we do what the Leader of the Opposition
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    suggested and bring about reciprocal treaties between Turkey and the other countries of the Near East, we know how very difficult such provisions have been to carry out. Self-determination on the European side has been only roughly satisfied by recent treaties. There is a marked exception, and that is Bulgaria. As to Bulgaria, the Treaty of Neuilly, which was a punitive Treaty, did promise to Bulgaria access to the sea. But there can be no access to the Ægean Sea except by the territorial possession of a corridor, which ought, I think, to be the whole of Western Thrace. When we think of the way in which self-determination has at last been brought about in the Balkans, we are tempted to recriminate in regard to the policies of the past. When we think of the effect of the policy of 1878 and the replacement of Turkey as far north as the River Save, it is a melancholy reflection that to put that right rivers of blood have flowed, and let us thank God that at last there is self-determination in the main for the whole of the Balkan people. In Asia the case is different. We think that the Turks have rights of a national kind as well as other nations and that the Treaty of Sevres trod upon those rights. But the Turks, insulted by the Treaty of Sevres, have now got their rights by force, and we need not bother about that any more. We must put sauce to the goose as well as to the gander, and there is one conspicuous case of unsatisfied self-determination which was referred to by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, namely, that of the Armenians. May I just recall to the House what is the position of this question in this Debate? The Leader of the Opposition made a very definite suggestion. It comes to this, that a lever towards getting adequate territory for these unfortunate people should be found, and that it lies on the frontiers of Iraq: in fact, that it is a question of Mosul. The Prime Minister said, "Very good, we all want to do our best, but we will not be Don Quixotes, and we will not act. alone." It is not a question of acting alone. We are in possession of the material for a bargain. The French are not. The Italians are not. It absolutely lies with us. I trust that the Under-Secretary will not contradict me when I say that the issue is perfectly clear at Lausanne. We are told

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    that the Allies have laid down certain conditions on broad lines, and that they will not recede on certain points. One of them is that they will not give way to Turkish claims in regard to the frontier of Iraq, but we see nothing about this old question of inadequate territorial concessions to the nation conspicuously concerned.
    May I just run over the claims of these people. They ought not to be forgotten. We have reached the final stage of a long-drawn dispute, and it ought to be thoroughly faced in these few days that remain. We made promises. They did not come from the Liberal but the Conservative party. Promises were made in this country to these Armenian people that if they rose against their masters they would have their reward in a country. They did rise, and took risks which no other people took. Certainly the Czecho-Slovaks took no such risks. These geographically unfortunate people suffered in an unparalleled manner by the slaughter of at least several hundred thousand people as punishment for fighting on our side. They also served in the Allied Armies to the number of 5,000 or more. They are now faced not only with being forgotten, but with being totally expelled from their country in the most terrible manner. I have no prejudice against the Turks, and I do not wish to be regarded as making an anti-Turkish speech. Indeed, I was, I think, more abused than anyone else for trying to get a hearing for the Young Turks in 1908. Let us trust there are elements that will in course of time make a civilised State. But there has been an unfortunate lack of education in the Near East. Ideas are crude and undeveloped as we go further East. There is a plan to expel the whole of the non-Turkish people which can only be compared with the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in the time of Ferdinand and Isabella. Horrible as are the records of that expulsion, they are not equal to the terror of this case where the women and children are to be expelled while all the men are to be detained in Turkey for military service. We have heard lately of the heartrending scenes witnessed by American relief agents on the quays at Smyrna, where men, torn from their families, became so maddened at the prospect of not seeing their families again, that they struck at the Turkish gendarmes and
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    were shot on the spot or thrown into the sea. This, if carried out, means colossal governmental cruelty—a cruelty possibly unparalleled in the history of the world.
    We do not know what power the Allies may still have to influence the conduct of the Turkish Government. But there is one little thing that they might do. When the disaster occurred at Smyrna the Government mobilised certain ships to take some of the refugees away. We might at least help these people who have, struggled down from the mountainous country to Black Sea ports to get away. There is a very large army of unfortunates on the coast at Samsun and other ports, and it is not asking very much of those who have the means to give for this purpose. It would cost some thousands of pounds, and it has been suggested that the money promised by way of loan to Greece might be available for this work. I beg the Under-Secretary of State to consider that suggestion. We might also attempt to influence the Governments of our British Dominions. There has been a suggestion that the Balkan States, of which Bulgaria has already granted a welcome, to the refugees, might be influenced. Spain might also be influenced, and naturally America has a large sympathetic element which might be utilised. I want to suggest that this is not a question of our liking the Armenians or the Turks or anyone else. It is plain even to those who dislike these people that if we believe at all in self-determination, this nation has not got a place in the sun and has not got a share in the least adequate to the populations concerned. There are now in the tiny Republic of Erivan perhaps 400,000 refugees, who are scarcely maintained by charity and for whom their present country cannot possibly find a living.
    Let me say what our suggestion is. The Labour party has many times defined its attitude on this point. The Government at one time referred it to the League of Nations to deal with. It also invited President Wilson to suggest a frontier. That frontier was not unjust, but we can hardly think that the Allies were very serious in dealing with the question in that way. The country that might very well he got from the Turks is not a very rich country, but it includes the fertile plains of Van and Alashkerd as well as Kars, which might

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    quite well be added to the Erivan Republic. The Turks, however, will not agree to that unless we give up something which they want and which they cannot take from us. As the Leader of the Opposition suggested yesterday, the question of Mosul has to be raised, and it comes to be a very explicit question between Imperial interests and moral obligations. If we blind our eyes finally to those obligations, we shall undoubtedly be violating the precepts of our moral nature, not to say our religion.
    One is tempted to blame and reflect upon the causes which have led up to this very ghastly situation. For my part, I think that blame, unless it leads to some material or moral advantage, is of little use. It would be easy to show that it was the policy of fighting Russia that is at the bottom of all this trouble. Undoubtedly it alienated the Russian Government from their natural sympathy with the Armenians. The Russians, as a matter of fact, are the only people who have ever provided any security since the Middle Ages for these people. But we, who strongly believe that humanity and justice are essential parts of good policy may claim that, if we had been in power, we would have avoided at least one of the irritating causes. We would not have incited the Greeks to invade Asia Minor, and therefore there would not have been aroused this bitter nationalist feeling which is so prevalent at present.
    Whether anything can be done or not it behoves this House not to hide the facts. I trust the Government will be ready to admit that the situation is extremely unfortunate and that the Allies are preferring material interests to moral interests, otherwise we are giving ground for the charge that we are hypocrites. Let us avoid that at all costs. Shall the first act of this new Government be a betrayal of promises which were made again and again during the War? We have said a thousand times that it was a war for the liberty of nations. Indeed, I remember that, in the last Parliament but one, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary twitted me with being inadequately keen on the national claims of the Balkan peoples, and particularly of the Jugo-Slavs. Ho is not an anti-nationalist, or oblivious of the rights of
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    a people to a country of its own. Is not there now a possibility, if only high authority were used, to save the world from a very disgraceful position? If ever the word "damnable" were justified, it might properly be applied to the treatment of this most unfortunate people. I trust it will not go down to history that we sacrificed public duty even to the commercial interests of the nation as a whole; but how much more disgraceful it would be if it came to be believed and taught by the historians that that duty had been sacrificed to the needs of a group of oil magnates. In the choice, as I believe it to be, between honour and grab, we on these benches would put honour first. We may, at least, implore the Government not to decide, while there is still time to decide otherwise, by keeping Mosul, by abandoning national rights, to forget honour altogether.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): This is hardly the first time I have had the honour of addressing this House, but none the less I feel that I stand quite as much, if not more, in need of its kind indulgence that either of my hon. Friends who moved and seconded the Address yesterday, because I am, as the House will realise, for the moment in a very responsible, and, I think, rather a difficult position. It so happens that, owing to the occurrence of the General Election coinciding with the Conference which is now proceeding at Lausanne, I have not yet even had the opportunity of seeing my Noble Friend the Secretary of State since I was appointed to my present office. Consequently, even if I could claim to be better informed than I can pretend to be on these subjects, I should feet that it was very necessary for me to approach the consideration of this Debate with a good deal of reticence. In addition, I have to confess that since, as hon. Members know, a very short time has elapsed since we all returned from our constituencies, the time at my disposal has been exceedingly short in which to make myself in any way acquainted with the intricacies of the present situation.
    This portion of the Debate was initiated by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) in, it I may say so, a very interesting

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    speech. The chief point that he made was to lay down the proposition that the foreign policy of this country ought not to be based upon what he called the group system, and I think he gave the impression that he thought that that was what the foreign policy of the country was tending 10 be based upon at the present time. That is, of course, an interesting question of a general nature, and I do not know that I feel very competent to discuss it. Personally, however, I do not quite see how, in the sense which the hon. and gallant Member intended, a foreign policy could be based upon anything but a group system, unless, happily, complete unanimity could be arrived at among the nations of the world. Of course, if we could arrive at the happy consummation that all nations on all principal subjects were absolutely in agreement, then we should be able to dispense with anything that could be called a group system; but the only sense in which it is true that there is a group system is that we have certain principles of policy which we pursue, or desire to pursue, in furtherance of British interests, even as denned by my hon. friend who has just sat down. In the pursuit of British interests and the interests, as we think, of the world at large, one finds, of course, that certain nations are in agreement with those principles while others may find themselves in disagreement, and, therefore, by a natural and, it seems to me, almost an unavoidable process, we arrive at what the hon. and gallant Member intended. I suppose, when he spoke of the group system. Certainly, in so far as the group system is unavoidable, I think the great majority of the Members in this House will feel that the Government is right in endeavouring to keep, so far as it is possible, as complete unanimity and agreement as we can with those nations with whom we were in agreement during the War and with whom we fought during the War.
    I notice with great interest that that particular principle of the hon. and gallant Member who opened the Debate was not shared by my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. O'Connor), who laid down a proposition with which I myself am entirely in agreement, though it differs a great deal from that of the hon. and gallant Member who opened the Debate. My hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division laid it
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    down that the first object of the policy we ought to pursue at Lausanne was to keep the Entente together. That, I can assure my hon. Friend and the House, is the first object which my Noble Friend as representing the Government, is pursuing at Lausanne; and I am very happy to be able to assure the House that, so far as we have gone up to the present, that point has not merely been kept in view, but is being very successfully observed. Not only have this Government and the Governments of our two great Allies, France and Italy, acted hitherto in the most complete harmony, but I think that the States which generally go by the name of the Little Entente are equally happily in agreement with us on all main questions.
    The chief points that have been made in this Debate have been in connection with the protection of Christian and other minorities, and also with the question of refugees which really is a cognate question. I certainly do not find myself in any real disagreement on principle with anything that has been said on those questions from any quarter of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland division said that the second point which we ought to observe at Lausanne, and he emphasised very strongly its importance, was to get real guarantees for the minorities, and he drew a distinction between real guarantees and guarantees which have not sufficient reality. I do not think that any of us would dissent from that. The difficulty is to be quite sure in our own minds what is a real guarantee and on that point I am afraid my hon. Friend did not give us much help. He said, for example, with regard to the exchange of prisoners, that we ought to insist upon the exchange of prisoners.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: I do not think I used the word "insist." I know, of course, that we could not insist. I confined myself to the statement that we should urge the exchange of prisoners.
    Mr. McNEILL: At all events the hon. Member appears to think that that was a policy which we should support very strongly. From that I do not dissent. I am not in a position upon that particular point to give any definite assurance, but I can hardly imagine that if, by proposing to the Turks an exchange of prisoners, we could do anything to ensure the safety of the Greek prisoners, that

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    point would not be put forward as strongly as it would be possible for us to do. Then the hon. Member and some others laid great stress upon the importance of utilising, so far as possible, the machinery of the League of Nations. I do not think there is really any difference of opinion on that point, but some hon. Members appear to think, and people outside sometimes appear to think, that unless you are constantly praising the League of Nations for its usefulness, unless you are constantly bringing before audiences, either outside or inside this House, that the League of Nations is the greatest invention of our time, you are lacking in sympathy with the objects which the League of Nations has in view. I do not agree with that. I certainly have not been one who, either in this House or out of it, has ever made the League of Nations a very constant theme of speeches. But that does not in the least mean that I do not fully appreciate the value of it, and do not hope that, as time goes on, it may be move and more used as a machinery for dealing with international difficulties, and if it is possible, for eliminating war altogether among the nations. So far as my knowledge extends, in all these delicate questions which are now being discussed, and we hope will be settled, by the Conference at Lausanne, I am certain that every possible weight is being given to the importance of the League of Nations and that, wherever that machinery appears likely to be useful, either for the protection of minorities or for the purpose of assisting refugees, in all those questions I am certain no hon. Member who is an enthusiastic believer in the League of Nations will have any ground of complaint as to the attitude we shall adopt.
    The hon. Member for the Scotland Division went a good deal further. He first of all made a very eloquent reference to the history of the Armenian question and the sympathy which this country has invariably shown for both the Armenians and other Christian races who from time to time have suffered oppression. My hon. Friend knows that I am in full sympathy with him on this subject. We in the past have been associated together in relation to some of these questions. But when he goes into such questions of detail as the outrageous policy, as he describes it, which
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    has been pursued in regard to the language used in schools and in the celebration of worship and so forth, it apears to me that he seems to expect an amount of interference and control by this country of the internal management of another State which certainly postulates our being ready to insist upon our policy by means which would, at all events, be very costly and might possibly involve us in actual war, for which I do not believe either my hon. Friend or this House or the country is at present prepared. That is really, I think, the central point of our difficulty in all these questions.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Fisher) referred to the freedom of the Straits and other important matters of that sort. I do not think the House will expect me to say anything upon those points except that they are not being lost sight of by Lord Curzon and our other representatives at Lausanne, and I am certain our representatives there are quite as fully convinced as to their importance to us and to the general good of Europe as the right hon. Gentleman himself. But if we are really to carry out the policy which this country, almost without exception, would desire to see, it would involve us in acting as police for the whole world. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, this country is not prepared to do that by itself. Anything that we can do in co-operation and conjunction with our Allies who are willing to support us materially and morally in insisting, so far as it is possible to insist, upon any policy having these humanitarian objects in view, I am certain will be done. But I am equally certain that unless we can in all these points have the complete approval and support of our Allies, it will be much too heavy a task for this country to undertake by itself, although that does not mean, of course, that we do not desire that it should be carried out, and would not do so if we could. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not with others than our Allies?"] That, of course, involves a very much larger question. My answer would be that I have no reason to suppose that the countries which are not, and have not been, our Allies will be any more ready to combine with us for these particular objects than others which have

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    been our Allies, and, on the other hand, that would be merely the introduction of rather a reversal of the group system which the hon. Member objected to, and if we are to have the group system, which appears to be unavoidable, it is very much better that the group to which we should belong should be the great nations with whom we have fought and who are in entire sympathy and agreement with us, than that we should throw them over, and the interests which we 'have in common with them, in order to try to cultivate an alliance with other people who are not in agreement with us and with whom we have not those traditions of the past or the sympathy which has grown with them. I quite acknowledge that I am not able to say much from the point of view of giving information. My object in intervening in the Debate at all was, not so much that I had any hope of being able to deal with any fulness with the questions raised, but because the Prime Minister has exhausted his right of speech before this part of the Debate began, and I thought courtesy to hon. Members who raised these points required that I should give such information as I could.
    I ought to deal, perhaps, with two specific points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities. He asked my right hon. Friend whether he would be prepared to lay certain papers relating to Iraq. The only reason, so far as I could gather, that he gave why those papers should be laid at this particular moment was that the late Government, of which he was an ornament, appears to have been subjected to some criticism in another place. I am not sufficiently learned in these matters to know whether there is any precedent for requiring papers merely because a Government has been criticised in another place. I should have thought the late Prime Minister, who had all these papers at his disposal for a long time, if he thought it was important that they should be laid before Parliament, might have done so himself. I am allowed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to say that, notwithstanding that, the matter will be considered whether these papers can be laid, but I am not able to give a definite reply at the present moment. With respect to a day for discussion of reparation which has been asked for, I have to
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    say that the Reparation Commission has just concluded its meeting at Berlin and returned to this country. The Commission is now in communication with the Government and the recommendations which they have made have to be considered. The matter is being considered, but my right hon. Friend is not able at the present moment to give a day for the discussion. It would be premature until these matters have been considered, but my right hon. Friend agrees that there should be a discussion at an early date, and he hopes to arrange for a discussion at an early date.
    Mr. N. BUXTON: Can the hon. Member make any reply in regard to the Armenian territorial question?
    Mr. McNEILL: I am not sure that that really is a point on which I ought to say anything at the present moment, because all these questions of territory are being discussed. What I would say is this. Even if it were possible to provide a national home for these Christians in the part of the world that the hon. Member mentions, I doubt very much whether that would be any real protection to them. I think the hon. Member referred to the same point in regard to other places. He spoke of self-determination as being the one way to provide for minorities. Surely it is a very great question in regard to small minorities who are close to more powerful neighbours who are not always pacific in their disposition, whether, if left entirely to themselves and without protection from elsewhere, they would really be in a position to protect themselves. I doubt very much whether, in the particular part of the territories of Iraq to which the Ron. Member referred, a small Christian minority would be in any safety whatever.
    Mr. FISHER: Can the hon. Member 6ay anything about the renewal of the Pact of Genoa?
    Mr. McNEILL: I cannot give any information on the subject, and I confess that it is due to my own gross ignorance on the subject.
    Sir GODFREY COLLINS: The House of Commons, irrespective of party, will join in congratulating the hon. Member on holding his present high office. I think the speech which he has just delivered

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    amply justifies, if I may say so, the choice of the Prime Minister in appointing him to his office, because in the course of his speech, net of undue length, on foreign affairs, he did not commit the Government to any policy whatsoever. Seeing that we have the Prime Minister in attendance, I hope that we may have some declaration of foreign policy, which no doubt the Under-Secretary was unable to give, not only to the House of Commons, but to the wider public outside. The Gracious Speech refers in one sentence to a loan to Austria. When the Prime Minister was signing the Treaty with Germany I do not think he saw that that Treaty, as drawn, would kill Austria. The Treaty, as drawn, has paralysed the entity of Austria. Goods which Austria in olden days were able to exchange between one district and another they are now unable to exchange, and the Powers of Europe, having cut up Austria, have practically driven Austria to bankruptcy. Now that the House of Commons and the British public are being invited to advance a loan to that country, I am tempted to ask, in view of the policy which has driven Austria to bankruptcy, whether the policy of the Government is going to drive Germany to bankruptcy also. The German mark has had a headlong fall and to-day the German mark is chasing the Austrian konen.
    Mr. W. GREENWOOD: It has gone down from 40,000 to 27,000. That is improving.
    Sir G. COLLINS: The rapid fall of the foreign exchanges clearly reveals that the Treaty of Versailles, which the Prime Minister signed, is driving Europe to bankruptcy, and the Gracious Speech referred quite clearly to the necessity of this country coming to the assistance of Austria. The question I put to the Prime Minister is this: are we going to stand idly by in this country and seek the conditions which have brought Austria to bankruptcy applied to Germany as well? During the late Election the Prime, Minister welcomed the assistance of Mr. McKenna. I think in one speech which he delivered in Glasgow he took note of Mr. McKenna's support. Am I to infer from that that the Prime Minister endorses Mr. McKenna's views on reparation? Let me remind the Prime Minister of Mr. McKenna's views on that subject. Speaking a few weeks ago in New York to the
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    bankers of that country, he said that the total sum which Germany could pay today was a sum of about £200,000,000. [HON. MEMBERS: "£2,000,000,000.] Yes, £2,000,000,000. Does the Prime Minister agree with Mr. McKenna on that subject? Does he agree that that is the total sum which Germany can pay? He held out hopes during the Election that the view held in many quarters to-day that Germany is unable to pay large sums of money was incorrect. I am anxious to learn from the Prime Minister whether he agrees that the sum mentioned by Mr. McKenna is the sum that Germany can pay.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Bonar Law): Two thousand millions is not my estimate.
    Sir G. COLLINS: Is the right hon. Gentleman in agreement with Mr. McKenna on the subject? Is he in agreement with the Balfour Note and with the underlying policy of that Note? He must be aware that the issue of the Balfour Note in July last tended to cut the Allies apart from Great Britain. To ask those countries in July last to repay the sums that were due to us tended to widen the breach between France, Italy, and ourselves. The point I am anxious to put to the Prime Minister is this. Is he going to repudiate the Balfour Note? Is he going to ask these countries to repay the large sums of money which they owe to this country? The policy associated with my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) is in sharp and striking contrast with the policy of the Balfour Note. We believe that until these questions are looked at in a new light and approached from a new angle, we cannot secure those stable conditions in Europe which all parties in this House desire. We believe that it would be in the real interests of this country to wipe out the debts owed to us by these Allies, provided that we could secure at the same time a large reduction of armaments, and thereby improve the conditions of trade not only in this country but abroad. At the same time, our share of the indemnities which Germany might pay should be also cancelled. We have proclaimed this policy time and again, and we joined issue with the late Government on these questions. We believe that a prosperous Continent will make for a prosperous Britain, and that a depressed Continent reacts at

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    home and creates unemployment in this country. We plead, therefore, for a policy of enlightened self-interest, and for all nations to live and let live, so that the animosities which war has engendered can be wiped out and that people, not only here but abroad, can face the future with that degree of confidence and hope which all nations desire.
    Passing from that subject, the Gracious Speech also referred to the League of Nations scheme and stated that the loan to Austria is to be engineered and carried through by the organisation and under the direction of the League of Nations. We hope that that foreshadows a new policy and that our whole foreign policy will be animated and directed through the League of Nations. During the last few years the assistance of the League of Nations has frequently been invited when the Supreme Council were unable to secure agreement. We hope that the spirit of the League of Nations will be put in the forefront of the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government, so that all nations represented there may gather together in friendly conference, and, at Geneva or elsewhere, may consider and effect an ultimate cure of the difficulties due to the warring interests between one nation and another.
    Mr. MOREL: In rising to participate in this Debate, I beg to ask the indulgence which, I understand, the House always accords to a new Member, particularly when he makes his first speech, even when, as in this case, the particular Member who has the honour to address the House now is one who, when he was not a Member, has had the rather curious experience, during the last few years, of hearing himself, from the gallery, both praised and blamed. It has been remarked by hon. Members opposite that a somewhat new spirit has been introduced into the House in connection with our domestic affairs, and a new spirit has been introduced into the House on this side in connection with our foreign affairs. One thing to which the Labour party has become more and more alive during the last two years is that our foreign affairs and domestic affairs are inextricably intertwined and we can no longer in the future as we have in the past allow our foreign affairs to be conducted under a veil of secrecy, and allow interests of the most vital importance to
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    the nation to be decided behind closed doors, without the knowledge of the people, and I believe that I am voicing the views of all my friends behind me when I say that we shall in this Parliament press unrelentingly until we have secured that full democratic control over our foreign affairs which the Labour party demands.
    We are all agreed that the European situation, with which we are faced, is one of extreme gravity, but it seems to me that, unless we are prepared also to face the causes of that situation which brought that situation about, we cannot possibly hope to cope with it effectively. The situation with which we are faced in the world to-day is the direct result of the so-called peace treaties signed after the War, and those peace treaties themselves are but the outcome of the secret treaties and arrangements made behind the back of this House and of the country by the Liberal Government during the War. All that I shall say with regard to the Near Eastern question is this: I agree with the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that perhaps the least said about the negotiations now proceeding at Lausanne the better, but there are at least two points which I think can and ought to be made without incurring the charge of wishing in any way to embarrass those negotiations One is this—we are bound to make it here as we have made it in the country. An error of a magnitude which can hardly be measured now has been made by excluding Russia from the Conference. How can the Near Eastern question ever be solved, or how can any real attempt ever be made to solve it, if you omit the people who, more than any other, are interested in the question I And I earnestly beg His Majesty's Government to consider, even now at the last moment, inviting the Russian Government to the Lausanne Conference. Apparently from what one reads in the press, Signor Mussolini, the head of the present Italian Government, is of the same opinion. The other point made in connection with the Near Eastern question is this. At this stage it does seem a pity to indulge in strong attacks upon one of the negotiating Powers at the Conference. I do not think that any of us on these benches can fairly be called Turcophile; I certainly cannot but those of us who have read the Report of the Carnegie Commission on the Balkan wars will be very chary in

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    imputing all tendency to massacre to the Turk.
    May I return for a moment to the point which I made at the beginning of my remarks—that the present situation is the outcome of the errors and the follies committed at Versailles four and a half years ago, and that that situation cannot be remedied until those errors and follies themselves are remedied? What an immeasurable opportunity lay before the Government of this country and of the Allied and Associated Governments four and a half years ago, and especially before the Government of this country! Surely at, that time we were, without challenge, the most influential Power in the world. Our influence to direct policy into the right channels, our power to have completely reversed the bad policy of the past, were unlimited. We had the ball at our feet. What was done? The country was told that Germany would pay for the War, and there was something said about conducting the Kaiser to the scaffold. Well, the Kaiser has since been conducted to the altar, and it is for hon. Members who are married to declare which is the worse sentence. As for making Germany pay, it was the greatest bluff ever put forward, and it was put forward, in my belief, largely by those influences which dreaded being taxed for the profits which they had made out of the War. If Members of the Coalition Government really believed that Germany could be made to pay the cost of the War a special educational penitentiary ought to be built for them.
    What was the great moral purpose put before the people of this country during the years of the War? What was the ideal for which hundreds of thousands of the youth of this country perished on the battlefield, the ideal which, in my own personal knowledge, animated some 15 or 16 young officers and privates whom I knew personally and whom I shall know-no more? They were fighting, as the hon. and gallant Member for Limehouse (Major Attlee) stated in an eloquent speech, for something even greater than King or country; they were fighting to make a better world. That was the great moral purpose which permeated the terms upon which the Armistice was signed. I do not think hon. Members opposite, who, perhaps, are somewhat scandalised by
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    some of the speeches they have been hearing from these benches, can realise what it means to my hon. Friends and to myself—that infinitely greater scandal of millions of men of the working classes who went into the War with that high and noble aim, and who to-day see their country spending twice as much as it spent before the War that was to end war, and find themselves abandoned and many of them starving. What was not to be done for the miners toiling in the bowels of the earth below the level of the sea? What was not to be done for them when they took off their khaki? Yet we have in South Wales to-day thousands of miners' families in such a state of utter destitution that the women have not a change of raiment and the children cannot be sent out of the house because they have not enough rags to cover them.
    3.0 P.M.
    We are faced with a Europe rent and shattered, a Europe over which is creeping economic paralysis, a Europe in which the seeds of war are floating from one end to the other as a result of the disastrous errors committed four and a half years ago. How are these errors to be repaired? We have had an interesting speech from the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Perhaps some of my hon. Friends are blessed with more intelligence than myself, but I sought in vain for any light or guidance in that speech. The one thing in his statement that seemed to be definite appeared to be also of a very bad augury. He practically defended the group system of nations. The alternatives are the group system or the League of Nations. There is no room for the two. It is the group system of nations which was responsible for the horrible holocaust of 1914–1918. Does it mean that, after all that has been said in favour of the League of Nations, the Government's opinion is that we are to go back to the old system of partial alliances, of two great rival groups, to the old system of the balance of power, denounced in such eloquent language by John Bright in this House many years ago? The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs said that hon. Members could not be expected to be praising the League of Nations all the time. There is all the difference between trying to make the League of Nations a vital mechanism and blocking the League at every turn. What we complained of in

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    the last Government, and what we hope that we shall not have to complain of in this Government, is that that policy was followed.
    The hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) indicated a desire for further discussion on foreign affairs, and another hon. Member suggested that we should have a day for the discussion of reparations. Apparently we are not to be allowed that, and I therefore take this opportunity of saying a few words on this question of reparations—so-called. The first thing to be noted about it is that the whole system of calculating reparations has proved to be a most monstrous and ludicrous absurdity. We began with a figure of £24,000,000,000. Then we came down to £11,300,000,000, then to £6,600,000,000 and now apparently there is a difference of opinion between right hon. Gentlemen opposite and others who held prominent positions in the Coalition Government as between the figures of £2,500,000.000, £2,000,000,000 and £1,100,000,000. If we want to reconstruct Europe and to re-open our markets, how-is it possible to do so in these circumstances? How is it possible that the mark can be stabilised unless and until Germany knows what she has got to pay? It. is this uncertainty which is paralysing the whole European situation. Make it £2,530,000,000, make it £1,100,000,000; make it what you like, but as long as you have this great nation in a state of despair and uncertainty, how can it borrow I You do not lend money to a man until you know what are his liabilities. Many of us on this side of the House take the view—I do so myself—that apart from the restoration of the devastated areas in France, upon which we are all agreed, we ought to wipe out reparations altogether as a mere cash transaction. Trying to enforce reparations has already cost us more than we have got. I have not the figures before me, but I think I am right in saying that after tempestuous bullying, we have succeeded in screwing £54,000,000 sterling out of the German working class and lower middle class, and we have spent £56,000,000 sterling in keeping a British Army eating its head off in idleness on the Rhine. As a mere cash transaction, this whole reparation question is a myth. Apart from that the: country is beginning to realise that the claim which has been enforced
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    for 4½ years to screw money out of Germany has acted, as far as we are concerned, like a boomerang. It has destroyed our trade; it is this very question of reparations, it is these ridiculous and absurd economic fetters put upon this great industrial nation of Central Europe, which is blasting our whole economic life and the whole economic life of Europe to-day.
    I ask the Prime Minister what is the policy of His Majesty's Government on this question? Whatever aspirations the Government may have after tranquillity—and one sympathises with them to an extent—it is perfectly ridiculous to suppose that there will be any tranquillity in Europe as long as the great festering cancer of these Treaties is eating into it. I am reminded that some of us have been stating for years what many hon. Members are prepared to admit to-day, and we were accused of unimaginable crimes for doing so. I could not help thinking of that when I heard the hon Member for Greenock putting before the House what I may call the argument of the clean slate, which I and hon. Members with whom I am associated have been putting before the country for four years. What have we been called for so doing? "Lunatics" was the mildest term applied to us. "Traitors" and "pro-Germans" were the worst. I was much struck by a statement of the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs and also of the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor). It is the statement made almost every day and everywhere, that the Entente must continue to be the basis of British foreign policy or the whole house will fall to pieces. I ask the Government, what is the Entente today, what does it mean, and in what does it involve us? I do not think there is a single Member on this side of the House who would not regard it as an absolute tragedy if our relations with France should cease to be of a friendly character, but the question arises: What France? There are two Frances. There is a great change coming over France to-day and the France of two years hence will not be the France of to-day. The France of two years hence will be a far more democratic France. The question which causes grave anxiety to many of my Friends is how far we are going to be led along the road of those elements in France from which we absolutely dissociate ourselves.

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    Everybody knows that if Germany is not going to follow Austria into bankruptcy, bringing a further decrease of our trade and further unemployment here, Germany will have to be given a moratorium. Some very alarming statements have recently been made in France by high authorities. What is the position of His Majesty's Government going to be if at Brussels next month or the month after, you are faced with this statement. "We agree to a moratorium provided that we may keep the Ruhr or provided that we may separate the Rhine Provinces from Germany to form an autonomous State"? What reply is His Majesty's Government going to make if a proposal of that kind should be made?. If such a proposal were accepted, the signature would have been put to the declaration of the next war. Any attempt to separate the Rhine Provinces from Germany is bound to lead to war and, without venturing in any way to arrogate to myself a position other than that of a humble Member of my party, I believe I express the views of all my Friends when I say the Labour party will associate itself with no policy of further military occupation. Our policy is one making for peace. We are against any policy that leads to war, and we should oppose, I believe, and strongly oppose, any policy calculated to extend the area of French military occupation, with black troops or other, in Germany.
    I thank the House for the courtesy it has extended to me. All I want to say in conclusion is that we on these benches believe that an absolutely different spirit has got to be introduced into our foreign policy and that an absolutely different spirit has got to be introduced into the present conditions based upon the Peace Treaties, which are ruining Europe. We stand for a revision of the Peace Treaties—not a mere change, but a revision of them out of all recognition, not only the Treaty of Versailles, but the Treaty of Neuilly and the other Treaties. The basis of our belief is that foreign policy must now be founded upon that living fact, the inter-economic dependence of peoples, and that it must be directed in the interests, not of particular classes, but of the whole people. The peoples, we believe, insist upon peace, and the peoples will get it, but they must have a framework within which they can act, and that is the
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    complete abrogation of the secret diplomacy which has brought us to this pass, and as far as our country is concerned a breath of democratic air sweeping through these old, musty, fusty channels.

    BRITISH TRADE, BKAZIL.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir PHILIP RICHARDSON: I ask the indulgence of the House in making a few brief remarks as a first effort in speaking. There are many more competent than I to deal with large questions, but there are those who would draw attention to matters which are relatively smaller, and I wish to draw the attention of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the state of our trade with Brazil. Brazil, I need hardly remind Members of this House, is the fourth greatest country in the world, and has a large population of some 30,600,000. It is a country of great possibilities in the matter of mining, agriculture, and other things, and it is a country that buys from us a great number of British goods. During the last few months some Gentlemen who were Members of the late House and who are Members of the present House had the privilege of visiting Brazil and the opportunity of studying trade relations between this country and Brazil, being afforded the greatest assistance by all with whom we came in contact, and I have to express our appreciation of the honour paid to us by the President of the Republic, by the Senate, and by the Chamber of Deputies in receiving us, and in giving us every facility to know that which we desired to know. I also wish to render testimony to the efficacy of the British Chambers of Commerce. Both in Rio de Janeiro and in San Paulo, there are Chambers which look after British interests and take every care of them. While we were there we learned, in relation to our trade, that it was less than it was before the War, as we should expect, because the volume of trade throughout the world is smaller than it used to be, but we were distressed to find that the proportion of British trade had fallen in relation to the trade of other nations.
    I should like to give some figures in relation to some of the principal headings. British exports to Brazil, which in 1913 were over £16,000,000 had dropped in 1921 to £12,000,000, but whereas that drop might not appear to be very important in view of the general diminution of trade, the British proportion of the total

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    trade in 1913 was 26 per cent., and in 1921 it was 20 per cent. Consequently we had lost one-fifth of the whole of our trade in exports to Brazil. Similarly in imports, our imports from Brazil in 1913 were over £8,000,000 and in 1921 were £4,000,000. In the former case 15 per cent, of the total trade was done by Great Britain and in the latter case only 7 per cent.; in other words, our trade was halved. Possibly our most important trade with Brazil is the trade in shipping, and in shipping in the two years 1909–1911, going back before the War, the total tonnage entering Brazilian ports was 23,900,000 tons, carried in 23,800 ships. Of this, British tonnage was 7,800,000 tons, in 2,650 ships. In 1921, the number of British ships had fallen to 1,540, and the British tonnage to 5,800,000 tons. The Members whom I had the honour to accompany were very much impressed with this state of affairs in regard to British trade in a country which supplies us with things which we require, and with some things which we cannot do without. I do not think we can do without sugar, frozen meat, rubber, lard, cotton seed, hides, coffee, and tobacco. These are sent from Brazil to this country, and on our side we send in exchange industrial, agricultural, and mining machinery, railway material, locomotives, wagons, iron goods, woollen goods, cotton goods, and so on. These goods are manufactured in various parts of the United Kingdom, and I am sure that all of us, particularly our Friends on the Labour Benches, must take an interest in the increase of that trade.
    There are several Members of our party who wish to speak, and I have been asked to give this first sketch and allow others to go still further into the matter. I do not therefore propose to trespass any longer on the time of the House, because I have broadly set forth the condition of our trade in Brazil and shown that we are, in fact, losing our trade, which is being taken by foreign countries. I trust the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department will look into this matter most carefully, because on every side we received a sympathetic reception. The friendship of the Brazilians with Great Britain is traditional, and we found everybody only too anxious to explain why our trade was falling off
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    and to offer us every assurance that it would be very welcome to Brazil if we increased our trade. I trust we are now in for a more prosperous time and that our relations with this great country overseas will not be forgotten, but will be looked into carefully.
    Major Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: May I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend upon his first effort? I can speak, I am sure, for all of us who went to Brazil when I say we found that he could speak fluently in three languages equally well, and, in doing so, he was able to encourage British trade and make great friends with the Members of the House of Commons in Brazil and the Members of the Senate and others with whom he conversed. I am sure he has made it quite clear to the House that the loss of trade between this country and Brazil is really a matter of great seriousness, and a matter which requires prompt attention by the new Government which is now in the saddle. May I give one or two instances of how, I think, our new Government might assist trade with that great country—a country much larger than the whole of Europe? When we were in extreme difficulties in our shipyards, just after the Armistice, Brazil asked us to repair two battleships for her. Those battleships were British-built ships. We were, unfortunately, unable to take those ships into our yards, and we had to refuse the work. I think if the Admiralty had been in closer touch with the Overseas Trade Department, some arrangement could have been made to take those ships, because, as a result of our being unable to take those ships into our repairing yards, we have lost a contract amounting to £2,000,000, which would have been expended almost entirely in wages. Those wages have gone into other pockets, not into the pockets we would have liked, namely, Glasgow working men's pockets or those in other big shipbuilding centres, but into the pockets of foreigners.
    That is not the whole of our loss. Almost immediately after this, we were asked by the Brazilian Government, who, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir P. Richardson) has said, represent a nation which loves our country and wants to do business with us, whether we could not send a naval mission to assist their Admiralty in naval ques-

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    tions. We used to have a naval mission in Brazil, but, unfortunately, our Admiralty said they were unable to do so, as they required the whole of their staff for demobilisation and other work upon which the Admiralty were then employed. Again, what a short-sighted policy. Another nation has sent a naval mission, and they are now making friends in naval quarters in Brazil. It is not too late for us, I am sure, to regain the confidence of the Brazilian nation, and to secure from them the work we want, and must have, to keep our shipyards and other factories going, if only the Government will take prompt action. In connection with this matter, I am confident I speak for my friends when I say that in our Ambassador in Brazil, we could not have a better Minister than Sir John Tilley. But Sir John Tilley cannot do everything, and would it not be possible to have a naval attaché specially attached to the Brazilian Embassy? At present we have a very capable officer, I believe, but an officer of rather junior rank, who is naval attaché to all the British Embassies in South America. South America is a big place, and travelling there is not too rapid. What we realised out there was that we have already lost business and trade for lack of more understanding between the Admiralty at home, the Foreign Trade Department, the Board of Trade and the Embassy out in Brazil. We shall do exactly the same in the Argentine if we are not careful. We, therefore, ask the Government immediately to take into consideration whether they cannot place at the Embassy in Rio a naval officer of senior rank, who, of course, must be able to talk Portuguese, and a similar officer in the Argentine, Chile, etc. I think I can speak for my friends when I say we have formed the opinion that such naval attachés at our Embassies may, and I hope will, recover for ourselves our business in Brazil in regard to naval matters.
    May I now refer to the Embassy itself in Rio? We, one of the Great Powers of Europe; we, the oldest friends of Brazil, have an Embassy which we rent furnished. I believe it is the same in Chile and the Argentine. Our friends the United States are fitting up most magnificent Embassies in all those countries. I agree we do not want to spend money, but, after all, in those South American countries the dignity
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    of Great Britain is represented by its Embassy and Ambassadors. We are losing business by this short-sighted policy. What we want is to solve the problem of unemployment by increasing our trade. If only this Government would take into consideration these matters, I am sure it would assist. When I refer to the question of dignity in the Embassies, I would like to give the House an instance. We visited Petropolis, and there we found a very charming Embassy which does belong to the British Government, it was bought some years ago. There was no motor garage, and the British Ambassador had to garage his car in a shed composed of bamboos and bits of straw. That does not add to the dignity of the Embassy. When the Labour party comes to govern this country it will realise that its representatives must have dignified premises.
    There is one other point before I leave the question of Embassies. The Overseas Trade Department, who are represented by a most competent and popular gentleman, is, unfortunately, separated entirely from the Embassy at Rio. When a business man arrives at Rio, and tries to do trade, he visits either the Consulate or the Embassy, but at neither does he find a representative of the Overseas Trade Department. Surely that must be wrong. It does 6eem to me that the Overseas Trade Department's representative should either be attached to the Embassy or the Consulate. As there is no room at the Consulate, I suggest that some accommodation should be found for him either at or near the British Embassy. British ships are constantly in and out of the vast harbour, and the Consulate does enormous business. It is situated in a magnificent position in the centre of the city, but it has only one room divided by wooden partitions. It is in the main street, and is above the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company's office. It is an extremely busy street. Motor cars are passing all day long, while in the side street the chief trades are coppersmiths and tinsmiths. The result is that in this one room, where, I think, six men and one woman work, in addition to our Consul-General, when it is necessary to dictate a letter, they have to shut their windows and their shutters in order to make their voices audible. I do not think we need to be as dignified about our Con-

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    sulates as about our Embassies, but I think we reduce the efficiency of people in tropical climates when they have to work in such a noise. I do hope the Under-Secretary will look into this question of accommodation at the Consulate.
    There is one other minor matter, which, however, ought to be put right quite easily, that I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. Baronet who is now in charge of the Overseas Trade Department. During the War the price of certain Consular document stamps was increased. It was increased a second time. The first increase was rather a reasonable one. The second one was in the form of a percentage, and I do not think it has ever been realised at the Foreign Office what an absurdity this has really brought about. In order to get a Bill of Health you go to the British Consulate, and apply for it. This Bill of Health has to carry a stamp. In the olden days that stamp cost 10s. On account of the extra expense the price was raised to 15s., and then about, perhaps a couple of years ago, it was decided to add 25 per cent, to that 15s. This now brings the stamp on an ordinary Bill of Health to the rather absurd sum of 18s. 9d. It is, I know, a small matter, but if you can conceive of the calculating of this 18s. 9d. in a peculiar foreign currency, with the exchange varying from day to day by jumps, hon. Members will realise what a lot of work this trivial stupidity, if I may so call it, puts upon our Consular staff. Why not make it a sovereign? The extra 1s. 3d. would not ruin anybody, and if you make the 18s. 9d. into a pound, well, then, everybody will know better where they stand, and in addition one of those minor annoyances of having to put eight stamps on a document will be done away with. At the present time the Consular official in order to stamp a Bill of Health has to put on it one 10s. stamp, one 5s. stamp, three 1s. stamps, and three 3d. stamps, the whole of which nearly covers the document, and then he has to enter each of these stamps in a book. I could give many instances of this sort of thing. For instance, the ordinary registration of births costs 3s. 2d. This employment of stamps is simply due to this 25 per cent, increase, and, as I say, the absurd result of all this has not yet been realised.
    I now come to a rather larger question. The difficulty which we had when we were out in Brazil was this: We have been
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    trying to improve our trade relationships and to get from the Brazilian Government and the Brazilian commercial houses more trade for this country, I am glad to say some of our friends out there spoke English. In our efforts we found that the answer of the Brazilians was that they found it difficult to do more than they are doing at present. We found that they had very heavy tariff walls against all foreign imports. In addition to that they have given a preference to other countries. America has a preference of 20 per cent. So has Belgium. So has Japan. When we said to our friends in Brazil that we are their oldest friends, that we have assisted them with loans, and with industrial enterprises, the building of railways and the making of roads and docks, that we have financed these things, and that we have over 250 million sterling on loans and investments in the country; that we had helped them to develop their great country more than any other nation in the world, and, therefore, why could they not give us the same treatment as they gave to the States, to Belgium and to others, their reply—what was it? The very simple one: "We should like to do better; we are most anxious to do trade with Great Britain, but what have you to offer? America has offered us a preferential tariff in exchange for ours; so has Belgium. What can you offer?" At the moment we can offer them nothing. There is no doubt about it, but here is a possibility which I should like to bring to the notice of the Secretary of the Overseas Trade Department.
    While we were out there, there was another body there, the International Cotton Deputation. Many members of that Deputation came from Lancashire. The chairman was a 5Torkshireman. The Secretary of the deputation was a man very well known in cotton circles, Mr. Pearce. What was that International Cotton Deputation doing in Brazil? It was out there because the cotton traders realised that there is likely to be a shortage of raw cotton in the world in the near future. Our cotton in the past has chiefly come from America. We have been trying to increase our empire cotton growing, and we have succeeded in many directions, but there is a distinct threat that the disease in the American crop may result in a very heavy and very serious shortage of raw cotton. In addition to telling us

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    that they were giving 20 per cent. preference to America because America had given them a preference they said, remember that America was their best customer for their coffee. If only we could get Brazil to grow cotton we might provide a market for it. It is well known, I think, that in the small town of Oldham alone there are as many cotton spindles as there are in any two European countries—more than half the number of the cotton spindles of the United States of America in the one small town of Oldham in Lancashire. After all, the port of Liverpool being really the cotton market of the world, it is more than important that our Overseas Trade Department should assist Brazil to grow cotton, then we would be able to take it from Brazil and thus be able to approach them and say: "We are not taking coffee, but cotton." We might say: "Now we are your best customer, we are prepared to buy as much cotton as you can produce." Then, I think, we might be able to get equal treatment for British trade.
    You cannot grow cotton like you can potatoes. You want great skill in growing cotton, because you must sort your seeds and get the same length of staple; all these technical details must be attended to. You must subsequently sort and pick your cotton in a regular and proper manner. All that work requires expert advice and administration. I do ask my hon. Friend whether he cannot immediately, through the usual channels, approach the Brazilian Government, after having talked over this question with the great leaders of the industry and with the cotton deputation experts? I am sure they will say to him: "You can assist the Brazilian Government now; now is the time help is needed. There is no time to be lost." They want experts quickly, advice for farmers and for ginning machinery workers, experts to assist them in all sorts of directions to develop their cotton. They are anxious to do it. I venture to suggest that it would be a good thing to arrange for a cotton mission. It is not too late to follow the cotton deputation by a mission of cotton experts to assist the Brazilian Government. I do not think they will ask us to give them any money. If they do want money I have no doubt it can be raised in the City of London by the financiers there. What they do want is expert brains.
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    If we send a cotton mission there, I believe there is no doubt that we shall be able to do an enormous business with Brazil. I trust my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will realise that we are not criticising either the late Government, nor the Government before that, nor the new Government. All we are trying to do is to show the need for looking at once into this matter, seeing that owing to the pressure upon this country immediately after the War we have not been able to attend to the matter of our important relationship with Brazil. We have slipped behind. We have lost ground. I hope, in considering the solution, or at any rate something towards the solution, of the slackness of trade and unemployment in this country, our friends in the Overseas Trade Department and the Foreign Office will do their utmost by consulting the Chambers of Commerce in South America, the Federation of Cotton Spinners, and so on. I trust that thus they will be able to improve our trade with Brazil and so assist in the solution of this problem of unemployment and better trade.
    Sir WILLIAM J0YNSON-HICKS (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department):The very few words I intend to say are really words of thanks to those Members of the House who have taken the trouble to go out to Brazil, and I wish to thank them for the work they have done. We are convinced that any such mission as this undertaken by hon. Members of this House cannot be anything else but productive of trade and beneficial to the cause of peace. May I also congratulate those hon. Members on the fact that although they were late coming back from Brazil, they were all returned to Parliament again, which shows that the electors appreciate the fact that Members of Parliament do other work besides that which they do in this House. I want to thank one or two others who have been concerned with the work connected with the exhibition in Brazil. The Committee presided over by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. L. de Rothschild) collected more than £25,000 in voluntary contributions, and that, together with the monies voted by Parliament, enabled the Government to present the British pavilion to Brazil, and it becomes the property of the Brazilian Government after the exhibition. We are also deeply, indebted to

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    Mr. Lynch, the Chairman of the various Committees connected with the British section of the Exhibition. With Mr. Martin, Mr. Marr and others too numerous to mention by name, he has devoted himself wholeheartedly to furthering the cause of Great Britain at Rio.
    Beyond that there is another Department of the Government which I think we must thank most heartily. My hon. Friend referred to the possibility of a naval attaché being sent to Rio, and he alluded to the harm that has been done because other countries had naval attachés there and we had not. I would remind the House of the very great work the Navy did in this connection by sending those magnificent battleships, the "Hood" and the "Repulse" which hoisted the British flag in the great harbour of Rio. Not only did we do this, but those battleships at a critical history in the construction of the British pavilion landed men who worked almost day and night in order to get the pavilion ready for the opening ceremony. They were so smart that they even found a large number of flowers and transplanted them within twenty-four hours. One afternoon a bluejacket stood sternly at attention and said, "We have found a cricket pitch about a mile away and where shall we put it?"
    With regard to what the hon. and gallant Member for Altrincham has said, I realise the vital importance of increasing the exports of this country. I am perfectly certain that the whole House will realise that there is no question of politics in this matter, because we are all convinced that we must get our export trade improved. I know there are great difficulties in regard to Brazil. My hon. and gallant Friend has mentioned some of them. I know the tariff is a difficulty and my hon. and gallant Friend has tried to lead me through these paths to a full-blooded speech on tariff reform, but I am not to be drawn this afternoon. All I wish to say is that every effort is being made by the officers of my Department to increase our trade with Brazil. We are in close touch with our Embassy.
    I am sorry that I cannot supply the information the hon. Member requires with regard to the lack of accommodation at our Consulate in Rio; but I am told that the Inspectorate has been increased and every effort will be made to bring our
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    Consulate up to a pitch of perfection that will secure the approbation of my hon. Friend. I will look into the question of the stamps. The increase of one of the charges from 18s. 9d. to £1 is not one that I should object to, and if the merchants and others interested feel that it would be more convenient to pay the extra 1s. 3d. I should imagine that the matter can easily be arranged.
    Sir G. HAMILTON: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reduce some and increase others.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: We will try to meet the hon. Member's suggestion. I am in communication with Chambers of Commerce in this country and with foreign Chambers of Commerce asking them to make suggestions on this question, and if they do so we will try to carry them into effect. With regard to the cotton question, that is a very difficult one. The cotton industry desires to increase its supplies of raw cotton. At one time I represented one of the cotton constituencies of Lancashire, and I realise the vital importance of the supply of raw cotton to that great county, and anything we can do to increase the supply of raw cotton we shall certainly do. I suggest that my hon. Friend should bring some of those gentlemen who have recently been to Rio and who represent the Cotton Federation to consult with me. We can then go fully into this matter, and if there is anything I can do to improve the position of affairs I will gladly consider it.
    I have nothing more to say except to thank those Members and officials on this side of the sea who contributed so much to the success of the British Section of the Rio Exhibition. In this respect I have to thank, also, the Brazilian Government and particularly the President. I am sure that they all fully realise the very close ties of friendship which for over 100 years have bound Britain to Brazil. Brazil is one of our oldest friends and she was the only South American Republic which joined us as an ally during the War.
    While we thank the President and the Government of Brazil for the very kind and courteous reception they gave to the Members of this House, I would like to go a little further and say to them, "We should be very glad if you could translate that sympathy and that courtesy into a little concession in regard to those tariffs

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    of which my hon. Friend has spoken." It is true that we as a Free Trade country are not in a position to make any concession of this kind to Brazil but we can promise to make no discrimination against what they choose to send to our markets are open to her. I hope that one result of this great exhibition will be to draw closer if possible the ties between Brazil and ourselves. I also hope that concessions may prove possible, and that our ties may be drawn closer, not merely in sympathy and in sentiment, but in our trade relations as well.
    Mr. RILEY: I hope, as one of the new Members of the House, that I may claim its indulgence for a few minutes. We have listened to three very interesting speeches with regard to the great country of Brazil. May I ask the attention of the House to another great country, the great Republic of Russia? In the Gracious Speech from the Throne we are informed that steps have been taken to bring about a settlement of the difficulties in the Near East. I want to associate myself with the hon. Member for Dundee. (Mr. Morel) in regretting that in that Speech there is not included the settlement of our differences with the Russian people. Those of us who are seeking to establish good relations, as we all profess to do, with all peoples, must regret that the Government have not taken this unique opportunity presented by the Conference at Lausanne to bring within the ambit of European amity the great people of Russia. The calling of the Lausanne Conference was an opportunity which could have been utilised by the Government to end the estrangement which has existed between ourselves and Russia since the break up of that people in the War. I come from a part of the country where Russia is important to us. Before the outbreak of the War Russia was one of our great customers, and great consignments of cloth were passing from the West Riding of Yorkshire regularly to the Russian markets. Not only was that the case with regard to cloth, but it was also the case with regard to machinery. Two years ago I happened to meet the manager of some large engineering works in a town just outside the borders of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and he told me that out of a population of 18,000, 6,000 were unemployed. The stable industry of that town was the making of ploughs and agri-
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    cultural machinery. I further asked him where the goods went before the War, and his reply was that 95 per cent. found their market in Russia and Central Europe. That market has been killed. I hope the Government and the Prime Minister will make it quite clear that we are going to have done once and for all with this ruinous, stupid policy towards Russia which has characterised us during the last four or five years, and that we are going to seize every opportunity to restore cordial relations and to open up trade.
    4.0 p.m.
    A few weeks ago I was interested, as no doubt many other hon. Members were, in the first announcement which the Prime Minister made to the country after the Dissolution. Speaking at Glasgow, the right hon. Gentleman said that he had to regret that the only-policy he could foreshadow was a negative policy. A fortnight later he spoke at Leeds, and he was then able to advance a step. He said that he was prepared to state that, as a means of reviving trade, the Government would encourage the development of trade within the Empire. He advanced one step from a negative to a positive policy. He said that he was prepared to inform the country that it would be their duty in the new Government to do all that they possibly could to develop trade within the Empire. We all hope to see that done, and we hope that he will be successful in that work. But what are the facts of the case? I went to the trouble of trying to find out what that meant. Putting on one side British India, whose people are not very friendly with us, and with whom trade relations are very difficult, the total population of our great Colonies—Australia, South Africa and Canada—comes to 17 millions. But in Russia and in Central Europe, there is a population of 250 millions, whose markets are dead to us. The one wee suggestion that the Prime Minister is able to make is to develop trade within the Empire. We say, "Very well and good, by all means and in every way, but why neglect these great countries which took our goods before the War?" I do hope that we shall have some assurance that there is going to be an end to boycotting Russia or any country, and that every effort is going to be made to restore relations that will encourage trade.

    UNEMPLOYMENT.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Very much of yesterday's Debate directed itself to the distressing problem of unemployment. That, if I may say so with respect, is as it should be. We do well to take counsel together at the very outset of our proceedings concerning the great hardships which are being inflicted upon so many of our people and for so long a time. I make no apology for asking to be allowed for a few moments to return to that problem. The picture drawn by speakers from the Labour Benches yesterday was the spectacle of a Government, and, indeed, of a House of Commons, sitting with feeble, nerveless hands during all this long time of depression and doing nothing or very little. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nothing."] Then I have not unfairly described the picture. May I be permitted to have a few words on that question? I shall no doubt express views with which some of my hon. Friends will disagree. At any rate, they will concede to me the same sincerity of purpose as they claim for themselves. In the first placs, surely it is idle to say that, if only the late Government had not done this and had done that, this infliction would not have befallen us. Unemployment, is world-wide in its incidence, though heavier here and lighter there. It is the result of the smash-up of 1914–18. The smash-up of 1914–18 left the delicate, highly organised mechanism of international trade shattered and on the scrap heap, and we, as the largest exporting people in the world, caught the full blast of it. We felt it with rapidly increasing severity from the fall of 1920 to the middle of last year. At that time—the middle of last year—there were over 2,000,000 people registered as wholly unemployed and round about a million were registered as on short time. During the last half of last year things moved painfully slowly and fitfully, but nevertheless in the right direction. We started this year with 1,824,000 people registered as wholly unemployed and round about 300,000 on short time. During this year things again moved painfully slowly but in the right direction up to a few weeks ago and then we ran into a season of depression. The latest figures of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, in whose sympathetic and capable hands this problem now is, show that on the 30th November, 1,377,100 people were registered as wholly
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    unemployed and 50,200 on short time. Christmas activities will help a little, but it is expected we shall start the new year with at least 1,400,000 registered as wholly unemployed.
    That is, of course, an improvement on the figures for the preceding New Year. But what we have to remember is this. This is the third winter in succession of hard times, and in the areas which have been badly hit all through that period— and they are not a few—the pinch in those areas, particularly this winter, is bound to be severe. Trade union out-of-work pay must, by this time, be pretty well if not entirely exhausted. What the people are entitled to ask is this, that the Government and the municipalities, working together, shall do all they possibly can to mitigate the hardship of the situation. They are entitled to ask that. The question I put to myself is this: Have we done that? Are we doing it? My hon. Friends on the Labour Benches will say, "No." Let me utter a word or two on that. [Interruption.] I ask to be allowed a word or two upon it, as a man who for two years has lived with this problem, and who will be very glad of the privilege of the opportunity to lend a hand, but who certainly has done his best during the depression through which we have been passing to find a remedy and relief. In August, 1920, when coming events were casting their shadows before, my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) and his Cabinet appointed a Special Committee to go into the question of unemployment, to face the situation which then seemed likely to arise, and which, in point of fact, did arise later in the year. From that day down to this, at any rate, down to our laying down our commission, our efforts have been relentless and untiring in the endeavour to try to meet this situation. This question of unemployment has been with us, I can say with all sincerity, the Aaron's rod amongst home affairs.
    Of course we realise, although it was dissented from yesterday to some extent, that the only true remedy is to get trade going again, and the wheels going round, so that the people may go back to the mills, the workshops, the benches, and the lathes. We have set that before us at all times as our main outstanding objective, and to that end we initiated the Export Credits scheme. That scheme was designed to enable exporters and manu-

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    facturers to get into touch again with the foreign markets destroyed by the War. When I laid down my commission, £22,000,000 of export credits had been sanctioned, and let me- say how grateful we were to the right hon. Gentleman who was then the Secretary of the Overseas Trade Department. The matter will now be in good hands with him. I admired nothing more than his alertness, his quickness, his readiness and keenness to try to develop this side of the many-sided endeavour upon which we were engaged. I can quite safely leave the matter in his bands and those of his colleague who has just spoken, the hon. Baronet who himself is now in charge of the Overseas Trade Department.
    The object of the Export Credits scheme was to catch up again and reconnect foreign trade. Towards the same end we undertook to guarantee loans to corporations and trading concerns for the purpose of initiating large capital works, the execution of which would give immediate employment, and which, when complete, would stand, ultimately to play their part in permanent trade expansion—railway electrification, the development of electrical power, the building of constructional works, and dock and harbour works. When we laid down our commission we had undertaken to guarantee nearly £22,000,000 of loans if raised for these and other purposes, which I will not weary the House by describing, under the Trade Facilities Act. Again, I can leave these matters quite confidently to the President of the Board of Trade.
    At this point I should like to ask a question. We proposed a maximum of £25,000,000 for the Trade Facilities loan guarantee. Already £22,000,000 has been undertaken, so that we are near the maximum. We then proposed to come and ask the House to make it £50,000,000, and I have no doubt that that is one of the matters which the Gracious Speech from the Throne indicates will be before us next week. I hope the Trade Facilities scheme will be pushed forward so that we may get on with it, but all these things take time, and we wanted, so far as we could, to find more immediate work. We sent an appeal to the municipal authorities throughput the country and asked them, "Is there no work which ordinarily you might put back to a more expedient day,
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    but which, having regard to the emergency in which we are, you can bring forward and hasten—public utility work which can be operated as relief schemes, such as new arterial roads, road repairing, road widening, the re-laying of tram lines, gas and water mains, and sewers?" I am bound to say, having regard to their own heavy local commitments, the local authorities have acted with great patriotism, speaking generally. As a matter of fact, for those schemes they put up during the last two years no less than £50,000,000 worth of work, and the other day, before we left office, we sent an invitation to them to see whether they could not put up some new schemes in view of this winter. Notwithstanding what they had already done and their own heavy local commitments, they sent over £10,000,000 worth, which I presume has been operated at this time. They behaved with very great patriotism. The late Government helped to finance those schemes, as it helped to finance some schemes of afforestation and of land drainage, but I think it will be necessary to do more, and I would suggest to the Minister of Labour, to whose sympathy and capability I have already most sincerely paid a tribute, because he has been a very useful and helpful colleague to me during all this long time, that I think he will have to press his colleagues for more relief schemes during the winter, because trade revival is going to be too slow and the time that is going to elapse between now and when this burden—and Heaven knows how responsible it has become—will become larger is not going to be short, and therefore I am sure he will come under the necessity to go on with more schemes for the purpose of finding immediate work. When you have done everything that can be done in the way of finding and making work, so grave and persistent is this depression that there must remain very large numbers of people to whose assistance he must come with financial support. Everyone agrees that work is infinitely preferable to financial support without service in return, and no one will agree more cordially than the great mass of the unemployed themselves. They do not want to get something for nothing any more than any other party in the community. If the work is not there, if you cannot make it, if you cannot find it, what are you to do?

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    Over and above the amount of relief granted by the guardians the Unemployment Insurance Act has played a great part during this time. Let me say a word or two about that Act. Happily before the slump developed we had extended the number of people covered by the Act from 4,000,000 to 12,000,000. Down to the beginning of 1920 it was 4,000,000. I thought that was a very fortunate circumstance. Everyone is familiar with the permanent structure of that Act. Benefit is payable out of its funds; when unemployed after a certain number of contributions have been paid by the insured worker while in employment. It is similar to a trade union out-of-work fund. Eight million people came under this Act for the first time on 8th November, 1920, at a moment when unemployment was already bad and was getting rapidly worse. I mention this because if we had left the thing to its permanent structure—benefit after contributions paid in advance—the part played by this Act would have been a comparatively small part in the mitigation of distress. We added a new 6ide, an emergency side, under which we said: "Benefit shall be paid in advance of contribution." When the people get back to work they will make good by their contributions the benefits which they have received in advance of contributions. How were we able to do that? There was in the fund when I came in charge of it £22,000,000, which had accumulated during the War, when everybody was contributing and there was no necessity for any but very few to draw benefit. That fund became exhausted. I came to the House and asked for borrowing powers up to £30,000,000, of which £15,000,000 when I left had been absorbed. It was necessary very largely to increase the contributions from "he employers and the insured persons.
    This two-fold scheme, the permanent scheme of benefit with contributions, back to which we shall get in good time, together with the temporary side, the benefit in advance of contributions, has enabled us to pay out in the last two years in benefit £97,000,000, with provision for £43,000,000 more if necessary, between the 2nd November of this year and the end of June next year. Let it never be forgotten that three-fourths of these large sums are the contributions of
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    the employers and the people who are lucky enough to be in work. Further, let it not be forgotten that those who are receiving, on the emergency side, benefit in advance of contribution will repay that when they are lucky enough to get back to work. I say that that is a great scheme.
    I will make only this comment about the benefit. I have always challenged the description of the benefit as a dole. You cannot call it a dole when three-fourths of the money comes from other than State sources. [HON. MEMBERS: "In amount it is a dole."] I am surprised at the words used in this connection by my Labour Friends, because three-fourths of the money comes from sources other than public sources, namely, from the employers and the employed, and in any case the recipient is going to pay back his share when he gets back to work. When I say that £97,000,000 has been paid in benefit in two years, with provision for £43,000,000 more to the end of June, if required, complaint is made by my Friends of the Labour party and others that we ought to get some work in return for these payments. Of course we ought, but many of those who say: "Service in return"; "Work not doles," have not the foggiest notion what work they mean. I am not referring to the Labour party when I say that. As I understand their policy, they do know what they want. They would open up State factories, so that the workpeople could go back to their own trade. Would that help? Would you not be putting one man into a job by putting another man out?
    Mr. LANSBURY: Certainly not.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Your cost of production would certainly be high, and, unless sold at a loss, your goods so made would not be attractive in the markets of the world. It is useless to make goods unless you can sell them. You would therefore have to sell them at a dead loss, and the taxpayer would have to make up the difference. What industry wants in order to expand is lower taxes and not higher taxes. I agree that work is preferable to financial aid, and if the Government pursue that policy they will have my best wishes, but if we start out trying to find work for anyone by taxing each other, then we are on the high road to industrial ruin and financial bankruptcy. Denunciations of private enterprise do not

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    help. Glittering vistas of the dawn of happier days when private enterprise is abolished do not help. It would be a very bad thing for the working classes of this country if ever that day did dawn. If the Prime Minister, the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour pursue the lines which we have laid down, with which the House is familiar, and if they develop and improve them and press them forward, they will have nothing but support from us. The Prime Minister in his election address said:
    "At home our chief pre-occupation at this time is the state of trade and employment. The immediate problem of unemployment is a matter which will call for emergency measures. Plans for dealing with the situation have already been considered by the late Government. They will be examined afresh by us with a view to seeing whether any improvements are possible, and the necessary steps will then be taken with the least avoidable delay. Such remedies, however, can only be palliatives, and real recovery will not come except from the revival of trade and industry."
    I read that with most profound satisfaction, as I did the corresponding reference to the matter in the Gracious Speech from the Throne. I say to the Prime Minister, to the Minister of Labour and to the President of the Board of Trade that we who sit here will lend all the support we can to the development of schemes of relief and remedy along the lines of the extract I have quoted.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Some of us on the Labour Benches were suspicious before that there was not much difference between the old and the new Government. The speech of the last speaker has confirmed us in that suspicion. The good words he has spoken of Members of the new Government lead me to the belief that all we have got is a change of personnel and not a change of policy. I have listened attentively to the Debate yesterday and to-day. I noticed in the Speech from the Throne that the Government have now done one thing—they have adopted the policy of the Labour party, laid down many years ago of connecting the unemployment problem in this country with the conduct of foreign affairs. The Gracious Speech from the Throne says:
    "The state of trade and employment continues to cause Me deep concern. The
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    ameliorative measures prepared by My late Government are being examined afresh, and you will be asked to make provision for their continuance and extension."
    I have heard three first-class Debates in this House on the problem of unemployment. The first I heard was initiated by the ex-Prime Minister, who was supported by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. I wish to ask the present Prime Minister whether the Government intends to follow exactly the same lines as the late Government in respect of unemployment. If they do, I wish to state that the proposals made by the Government of 13 months ago were shabby and totally inadequate. I would like to call the attention of the last speaker to a typical home in my constituency. It is that of a man who works in a coal mine three days a week and takes home 21s. 6d. as his wages. He has three children over 14 years of age, and the three are unemployed, and because they are of working age they are deemed under the State Unemployment Scheme to be dependent on their parents. The four of them, plus the mother, are compelled, therefore, to live on 21s. 6d. a week. That was instituted by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken.
    What the unemployed, and the people of this country generally, fail to understand, is that the late Government—according to the right hon. Gentleman's figures—have paid away approximately £100,000,000 in connection with unemployment. Why did the Government spend £130,000,000 on Iraq? We fail to understand why the Government is so ready to expend money on Imperialistic and militaristic adventures, whilst leaving our own people to starve at home. Let me turn to the proposals made by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last. They were four in number. First he said the Government had decided to set aside £25,000,000 for facilitating trade. The second proposal was that £10,000,000 should be allocated to help local authorities to provide relief works. In connection with that proposal, the Government said that if a person were not a competent workman on these particular schemes, he was to be paid only 75 per cent. of the trade union rate of wages. The former Minister of Labour knows well how that distinction between one workman and another brought about great irritation, which still exists. The next

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    proposal was that the Government should levy employed workmen twopence per week in order to help in paying State un-employment benefit. In my view that was a most scandalous proposal. It called upon the men who were employed, either fully or upon half-time, to keep their comrades who were wholly unemployed. That is to say, the policy laid down by the Government was that the poor must help the poor. There remained another startling proposal—that the Government would spend £300,000 to help ex-soldiers to emigrate to foreign lands. I would like to know how many took advantage of that proposal?
    During this Debate a great deal has been said about foreign affairs and I was delighted to see the relationship between unemployment and foreign affairs being kept up by speakers on both sides of the House. As representing a division in Lancashire I have been convinced that the wheels of the cotton mills and weaving sheds in Lancashire will only be kept running when we are in accord and goodwill with India and other countries. I regret very much that in the Speech from the Throne not a single word was said with regard to the policy of the Government on education. I wish the Government had told us of their intention in this connection because I am informed on very good authority that the Education Department in this country is bringing our educational system down and down to a point lower than it has been for the last 10 years. I am one of those who is suspicious enough of the last Government and of this Government to believe this, that there are men belonging to the ruling classes who are afraid to educate the children of the working classes. When the doors of the secondary schools are open free, without any fee, the children of the working classes will acquit themselves as well as the children of the rich, because genius is not the monopoly of the rich. I wish the Speech from the Throne had given us some indication of the attitude of the Government towards education and housing too.
    In regard to Russia, I remember the ex-Premier, who honoured my constituency by coming to speak against me, and who called me his fellow-countryman, although he was born in Manchester and I was born in Wales—I think one of the reasons why I was elected was that he came to speak for my opponent—I re-
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    member him saying in this House that it was time we put a sanitary cordon around Russia to prevent Bolshevist tendencies spreading to Europe. Let me make my position clear, and I think it is the position of the party to which I belong. We are not concerned in the least, when we speak of Russia, with the form of Government in that country. I will go so far as to say that if they have a Czar in power, if they have a monarchy, or a Socialist Government, in future, if they have any form of Government whatever, that is their business, and not ours. I have yet to learn that we find any difficulty in negotiating trade with Brazil simply because it is a Republic. I remember an hon. Member opposite in the last Parliament proposing that this country should spend £30,000 on an exhibition in Rio de Janeiro, the capital of Brazil. I want to know what influences are now at work in this country which animate Gentlemen on the other side to ask the Government to come to their aid in order to help trade relations with Brazil. I have an idea that there is a definite move on behalf of the Federation of British Industries, and I believe that organisation has definitely decided to capture the trade of Brazil, and that it is backed up by the bankers. I am told that the Rothschilds own fifteen-sixteenths of all capital loans in Brazil at the moment. I shall be interested to see the development of these negotiations with Brazil. I fail to understand the connection between better trade relationships and the proposal to have a naval mission from this country to Brazil. I am very suspicious of all these ideas of navalism and militarism. I was proud to come to this House because I did not during the War send any young boy to his doom, and the Labour party, I feel sure, will echo every word when I say that our advent to this House, if it means anything at all, means goodwill among all the peoples of the earth. I am glad to learn that the people of India rejoice because our numbers are growing, and that the people of Egypt feel better towards this country because they know that the Labour party means inernational goodwill.
    Returning to the question of unemployment, I want to know what schemes the late Government left in abeyance for the present Government. I thought I heard the ex-Minister of Labour proposing one

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    day to institute insurance by industries; that is to say, that he would insure the engineering trade, the mining industry and all the segregated trades on their own against unemployment; I believe there are influences at work in support of that proposal. I would like to ask the Government to remember one thing, and probably the Minister of Health will be able to inform them, that segregation of industries for insurance purposes would be absolutely a failure, because if either the engineering trade or the mining industry were insured on its own footing, and an industrial dispute occurred in either or both of those industries, they would absolutely fail to carry their responsibilities and liabilities. I trust, therefore, that we shall hear no more of the proposal of insurance by industry. Those of us who represent clerks, dressmakers and others engaged in domestic and allied occupations will resist that proposal as far as lies in our power, as we regard it as unsafe.
    The ex-Minister of Labour took some pride for the work he did for the unemployed. Let me turn to a practical proposal of his. We have heard a question from the other side—in my view, a very proper question. It irritated some people, but did not annoy me in the least. The question was, "What would the Labour party do?" Let me run over one or two things we would do. We would build houses for the people. We would build schools, because some of the elementary schools of this country are in such a condition that some hon. Member on the other side would not keep their dogs in them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"]
    Mr. McENTEE: We could show you to-morrow a dozen in London.
    Mr. DAVIES: The schemes made out by the late Government have proved absolutely inadequate. You have at the beginning of the third winter a million and a half unemployed, and what are the Government proposing to do? To extend those schemes which the late Government laid down. Let us see. A proposal was afoot in April, 1921, to lay out a road 28 miles long from Liverpool to Manchester. There are in that district surrounding the proposed roadway 100,000 workpeople unemployed, costing, in out-relief
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    and unemployment benefit, approximately £5,000,000 per annum. We want work for those people. If I had my way everybody would do a share of the work of the world.
    Viscountess ASTOR: "Hear, heart!"
    Mr. DAVIES: I am very glad to get support from the other side. I hope that support will be permanent. This proposed road was to cost £3,500,000. The scheme is still in abeyance. The present Minister of Labour represents a portion of the Eoyal borough of Salford where this scheme was instigated. I trust my words on this matter will be conveyed to him, for we very much desire that this work should be commenced at once. Roadmaking should be taken out of the hands of the local authorities. Our main first-class roads should be national roads. The time has long gone when we should be satisfied with roads based on plans and principles of 100 years ago. I understand that in a single day some 3,000 motor vehicles travel the road from Manchester to Salford. In this matter we are anxious not only to find work for our people, but anxious for the safety of the pedestrians—that they should not be killed at the rate they are now being killed. Road accidents are increasing weekly. I trust the Minister of Labour will press the Government in order that the problem may be solved and that the local authorities will be brought into consultation once again; that the Government will not quibble about the question of expense, but do the glorious thing, and use that two million pounds margin out of motor taxation in order to proceed at once with the work.
    My final word is that I trust that at the end of the Debate those of us who have put forward arguments—vigorous, I agree, from this side—I hope they will be more vigorous—be-cause the occasion demands it—will get some reply. Constituencies, like mine are in desperate straits, and the tranquillity of which we have heard will be dispelled so far as we are concerned. I trust that our philosophy and creed will be established once and for all, independent even of our international relationships. We as a party will not be satisfied until we get this creed adopted—either work with good wages or maintenance for those who cannot find work.
    Mr. SULLIVAN: It is quite time, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell (Dr. Macnamara) that the late Government started schemes. It is also true that some of the local authorities put forward schemes. But after the schemes were put forward, the Minister of Labour took care that the schemes were not proceeded with. I am a member of the Lanark County Council. We have always been anxious to provide useful work; at present it is doles. We have waited weeks and months to get liberty to proceed with work. Some of our main schemes are being held up to-day despite the fact that we have thousands of men vainly seeking for work. That is the charge made against the Minister of Labour. I have taken a keen interest for many years in the housing conditions of the people of Lanark, where 12 per cent, of them live in houses of one apartment, and over 60 per cent, in houses of two apartments. We have been anxious to do something to improve those conditions, but step by step we have always been met by the opposition of the Government. This work is lying to hand just now, and might be proceeded with, but for the difficulties which have been put in our way. In my constituency of North Lanark we were negotiating for land on which to erect houses. We agreed as to the amount of money to be paid per acre, but the Scottish Board of Health rejected our scheme because they said we were paying too much for the land, and that is the usual excuse they make. In another part of the county the Scottish Board of Health objected to our scheme because they said we were paying too little for the land. Consequently our building scheme was stopped, despite the fact that we had entered into a contract for the sewer and for the laying out of the land.
    In another instance we proceeded with our scheme, because we knew the superiors would always be ready and willing to take the amount of money we offered.
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    I have served on many public bodies for a long time, and I have come across family after family who thought it a disgrace to apply to the parish for relief. The Government are pauperising the working people of this country, and years after this Government is dead the poor people will curse the action of the Government in this respect. The outdoor relief in Scotland is limited to 15s. per week for five weeks, and if it is the case of a married man he gets 5s. for the wife. I hope the hon. Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) realises what that means. She told the electors of Plymouth that they were all equal on the Election day, but it seems that on the day after the Election they are only worth 5s. a week. I wonder what use the hon. Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth could make of 5s. a week. It was stated in a London paper yesterday that the boards of guardians have spent £100,000,000 in relief of able-bodied men and women. I suppose it is a common thing on this side of the border to give relief. But the late Government passed an emergency law which compelled Poor Law authorities in Scotland to violate their own Act. They gave relief in the belief that the Government was going to make it good. What did they find1? The Government tricked and betrayed them as they be-tryed everybody else, and to-day we have this position. In the New Monkland parish, with a valuation of £120,000, they are paying out this year £35,000, a sum equal to a Poor rate of 4s. 9d. in the £.
    It being Five of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
    Debate to be resumed upon Monday next (27th November).
    Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3, till Monday next (27th November), pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.
    Adjourned at Five o'Clock.