Sitting of 16 May 1922

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill.
Bill to be read a Second time to-morrow.
Trafford Park Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Bolton Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.
Great Northern Railway Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Rugby School Bill [Lords] (by Order), Yorkshire Electric Power Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ayr Burgh (Tramways, etc.) Order Confirmation Bill,
Kilmarnock Water Provisional Order Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL,
  "to confirm certain Pilotage Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Pilotage Act, 1913, relating to pilotage in the Pilotage Districts of the Forth (Trinity House of Leith), Barrowstounness, Burnt-
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  island, Charlestown, Grangemouth, Kirkcaldy, Leith, and Methil," presented by Sir WILLIAM MITCHELL-THOMSON; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 121.]

  NEW WRIT.
  For County of Londonderry (North Derry), in the room of the right hon. HUGR THOM BARRIE, deceased.—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    RACIAL DISTINCTIONS COMMITTEE.
    Colonel Sir C. YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India who are the members of the Indian Racial Distinctions Committee; whether the Committee has yet reported; if so, with what result; and what steps have been taken to secure that, while Indians may be placed on the same footing as Europeans under the laws of criminal procedure, nothing is done to abolish the rights now secured to Europeans under the same code?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Earl Winterton): I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the members of this Committee. As it has not yet reported, so far as I am aware, the last part of the question does not yet arise.
    Following is the list:

    RACIAL DISTINCTIONS COMMITTEE.

      MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE.
      The Honourable Dr. Tej Bahadur Sapru, LL.D., Law Member of the Governor-General's Council, President.

      The Honourable Sir William Vincent, Kt., K.C.S.I., Home Member of the Governor-General's Council.

      Mr. S. H. Das, Standing Counsel, Bengal.

      Mr. T. C. P. Gibbons, K.C., Advocate-General, Bengal.

      The Honourable Mr. Justice Shah, Kt., Judge of the High Court of Judicature, Bombay.

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      Mr. P. E. Percival, I.C.S., Member of the Legislative. Assembly.

      Rao Bahadur Tiruvenkata Rangachariar,

      Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      Mr. Narayan Madhav Samarth, Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      Mr. W. L. Carey, a Member of the Bengal Legislative Council.

      Mr. Abul Kasim, Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      Dr. H. S. Gour, Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      Mr. Saiyid Sultan Ahmad, Government Advocate, Bihar and Orissa.

      Rai Bahadur Lalit Mohan Banarji, Government Pleader, Allahabad.

      Mr. W. Muir-Masson, Punjab.

      Mr. F. McCarthy, Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      Lieut.-Colonel H. A. J. Gidney, Member of the Legislative Assembly.

      POLICE FORCES.
      Sir C. YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, considering the great increases to the military charges necessitated by the frequent calls upon the troops in India for military aid to the civil power in the maintenance of law and order, he can state what steps it is proposed to take to secure a loyal, well-paid, and contented police force in each province of sufficient strength to meet the growing defiance of authority and to maintain law and order without the necessity of continually calling out troops?
      Earl WINTERTON: The duty of maintaining police forces of a character suitable to local requirements falls upon the provincial governments. In spite of temporary difficulties, I believe that there is no material deficiency in those forces or any need for special steps. The only military charges affected by the use of troops to assist the civil power are transport charges, which are comparatively small. Such use of troops has not caused any great increase to the military charges.

      PRISONERS.
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India the names of those Englishmen who are now in prison in India by reason of their trades union or political activities; what
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      sentences they are serving; and whether they are being treated in jail as Europeans or as Indians?
      Earl WINTERTON: There are, to the best of my information, an American named Stokes, and a European named Miller in prison at present. The former in December last, on an information that he was disseminating sedition, refused to give security to be of good behaviour and was sent to jail in default for a period of six months. I have already explained the sentence passed on Miller. In Indian jails all Europeans are confined in separate quarters, and there are separate rules for their treatment.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Do I understand that Stokes is receiving European treatment in jail?
      Earl WINTERTON: I have already stated in my answer that all Europeans are confined in separate quarters, and that there are separate rules for their treatment.
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will obtain information as to why Lala Lajpat Rai and other political prisoners at Lahore declined to take advantage of the better treatment and food granted to and accepted by political prisoners in other Indian jails?
      Earl WINTERTON: I do not consider that there is any public interest to be served by inquiring as to the reasons why a particular convict declines a concession.

      MR. MILLER (IMPRISONMENT).
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that Mr. Miller, the general secretary of the North Western Railway Workers' Union, and organising Secretary of the All India Trades Union Congress, has been convicted of belonging to an illegal organisation, and sentenced to four months' rigorous imprisonment, and what is the illegal organisation to which he has been found to belong?
      Earl WINTERTON: According to Press reports, Mr. Miller was recently sentenced, after trial by jury in the High Court at Lahore, to four months' rigorous imprisonment for being a member of an unlawful assembly and not, as stated in

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      the question, for belonging to an illegal organisation. I have no official information on the subject.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the Noble Lord find out what is the illegal organisation with which he is connected and for which he is liable to arrest?
      Earl WINTERTON: As I have said, as far as I know, it was not for belonging to an illegal organisation, but for being a member of an unlawful assembly, but I will make inquiries on the subject.

      CIVIL SERVANTS (FREE PASSAGES).
      Sir C. YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, considering that officers in the Indian Civil Service of less than five years' service, allowed to retire owing to the changed conditions of service under the Government of India Act, 1919, receive only a gratuity of one month's pay for each year of service, a sum in many cases that will not cover the cost of their return to England, the Secretary of State will consider the expediency of allowing to those officers a retiring gratuity and a free passage home on a scale similar to that sanctioned for officers of the Indian Army who are being brought under reduction?
      Earl WINTERTON: My hon. and gallant Friend's question is based on a misapperhension. All officers retiring under this scheme receive, in addition to the gratuity or pension for which they are eligible, the cost of 1st class fares and passages for themselves and their families. The Secretary of State sees no sufficient ground for revising the scale of gratuity offered to junior civil officers.

      NORTH-WEST FRONTIER.
      Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the policy now being pursued in respect of the North-West Frontier problem; and whether he can give the House any information in this behalf?
      Earl WINTERTON: It would hardly be possible within the limits of an answer to deal with the whole question of North-West Frontier policy. If, however, I am correct in understanding that the hon. Member's inquiry is intended to be directed only to the details of the arrangement now being pursued in
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      Waziristan, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Secretary of State on 18th August last, which fully summed up the situation in Waziristan. The policy of improving communications and finding employment for the tribesmen as khassadars and escorts and on road-making is being steadily developed with control of dominant positions in Waziristan by military occupation.
      Sir J. D. REES: Can the Noble Lord state whether there is any truth in the reports of disagreement between the Home and Indian Government in this behalf?
      Earl WINTERTON: The two Governments are agreed as to the course to be followed during the next few months. The details of the execution of the policy are still under discussion and likely to remain under discussion for some time. The discussion of these details have been magnified in some quarters into a difference of opinion on fundamental policy.

    BRITISH ARMY.

      WAR MEDALS (HOME SERVICE).
      Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the Government's inability to grant War medals to all who did home service only, he will recommend the issue of a medal to those pre-War Territorials who volunteered for overseas service but were retained at home for duties as onerous as those performed by naval men who never went abroad and yet received War medals?
      The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): A large number of questions on this matter have already been answered, and I have nothing to add to the previous replies.
      Mr THOMSON: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman state why the men serving in the Army should be treated differently from the men serving in the Navy?
      Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: That question has been very carefully considered by the War Office in the conclusion at which they have arrived.

      ARMY OF OCCUPATION (CONSTANTINOPLE).
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War if

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      he can state the monthly cost of the British Army of Occupation in Constantinople; and whether he hopes to recover this money from the Turks?
      The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Sir Robert Horne): The monthly cost of the British Army of Occupation is £220,000, as shown on page 19 of Army Estimates, 1922–23: these expenses would be recoverable from Turkey under Article 236 of the Treaty of Sevres, but it is not at present possible to state in what way (if any) this Article will be modified before the Treaty with Turkey comes into force.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he hopes to recover this money?
      Sir R. HORNE: Really one cannot speak about hopes.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The British taxpayer is paying the money, and are we to understand that it will be recovered from the Turks?
      Sir R. HORNE: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must understand exactly what I have stated.

      PALESTINE (ANGLO-AMERICAN AGREEMENT).
      Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether an agreement has been reached between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States of America regarding Palestine; and, if so, what is the nature of the agreement?
      The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the actual terms, I would refer the hon. Member to the communiqué on this subject issued by the Department of State at Washington on 14th May, which was published in the Press of yesterday.

      NATIVE LANDS (ALIENATION).
      Mr. ROBERT RICHARDSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received information as to the area of lands in native occupation alienated to white men since 1914?
      The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Edward Wood): I have not yet obtained the information referred to, but a despatch has been received from the Governor stating that the return will shortly be forwarded.
      Mr. RICHARDSON: Shall I put down my question this day week?
      Mr. WOOD: Yes, if my hon. Friend cares to do so, but I cannot say whether I shall be able to answer it.

    IRELAND.

      BRITISH TROOPS (SOUTHERN IRELAND).
      Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether all British troops in Southern Ireland are now concentrated in either Dublin or the Curragh; whether there are any small detachments of troops in any other places in Southern Ireland; for what purpose British troops are retained in Southern Ireland; and when it is intended to withdraw them from Southern Ireland if it is not the intention of the Government to use them to secure protection for life and property?
      The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Sir Hamar Greenwood): There will be no British troops in Southern Ireland by the end of this week, except in Dublin and in the coast defences. There are now no small detachments. In reply to the last two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in the Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House on the 10th instant.
      Sir W. DAVISON: Is it quite clear that the small detachment stationed at Voughal for some time has now been removed?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: My answer is that there are now no small detachments anywhere.
      Captain Viscount CURZON: Does the answer refer to naval ratings or to small bodies of troops scattered about?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: I think that question ought to be addressed to the Admiralty.

      KIDNAPPED BRITISH OFFICERS.
      Viscount CURZONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there is as yet any news of the three officers and one private captured at Macroom?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: I regret to state that I have no further information.
      Viscount CURZON: Are the Government still taking steps to try and find out what has happened to these three officers?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: I can assure the Noble Lord that every step has been taken by Sir Nevil Macready, the officer commanding, and are still being taken to discover the whereabouts of these officers.
      Colonel GRETTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether reports have been received by the War Office, and if so, what is the nature of them?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: I must ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to put his question down.
      Colonel GRETTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform us if any reports have been received?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: The bon. and gallant Gentleman asks me if any reports have been received. We are daily in communication with the general officer commanding in Ireland on this very point, as to which reports I must ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to put a question down.
      Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any hope that these soldiers are still alive?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: I profoundly regret I can add nothing to what I have already said.
      Sir J. BUTCHER: Has the Provisional Government given any answer to the representations made to them by His Majesty's Government?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: Yes. The Provisional Government has, I think, done everything in its power.
      Mr. E. HARMSWORTH: What organisation has the general officer commanding for finding out the whereabouts of these men?
      Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise.

      CONSTABULARY FUNDS.
      Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland who are the persons beneficially interested in the benefit branch of the Constabulary Force Fund and the Queen's Jubilee Fund, respectively, under the existing Regulations and will lay upon the Table for the information of Members a copy of these Regulations, and of the annual audited accounts of these funds for the last six years; whether he will state the number of the subscribers to these funds, respectively, who were in existence at the date of the Order for the disbandment of the Royal Irish Constabulary, distinguishing those who were existing members of the force and those who were pensioners; whether subscriptions to these funds will now cease; and whether he will procure an actuarial estimate showing how much of these funds, respectively, will be required for paying the benefits provided under the Regulations and how much surplus will remain after providing for such benefits?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: In reply to the first part of the question, I will send my hon. and learned Friend a copy of the Regulations and accounts relating to the benefit branch of the Constabulary Force Fund for which he asks. The Government Actuary has been asked to furnish a report on the present financial state of the benefit branch, so that the Government may know what is, in fact, the actuarial position. Pending the receipt of this report, I regret that I am not in a position to reply definitely to the specific points raised by my hon. and learned Friend. As regards the Queen's Jubilee Fund, the trustees are taking legal advice as to the necessary steps to be taken to wind it up.
      Sir J. BUTCHER: Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the other part of the question as to the number of the subscribers?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: That is enclosed in that part of my answer which says, "Pending receipt of the report, I regret that I am not in a position to reply definitely."
      Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman put these Regulations in the Library, which would be far better than sending them to me personally?
      Sir H. GREENWOOD: Yes. I will do so.

      CATTLE.
      Major MACKENZIE WOODasked the Minister of Agriculture whether it is proposed to treat the Irish Free State as a Dominion on the same footing as Canada for the purpose of the importation of live cattle; arid, if so, when?
      Mr. PARKER (for Sir A. Boscawen): My right hon. Friend is unable to make any statement at the present time as to legislation on this subject. The present position is as stated in his reply to the hon. Member's question of the 2nd instant.

      PROBATION OFFICERS.
      Sir THOMAS BRAMSDONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will adopt the suggestion to which reference is made by the Departmental Committee on the training, appointment, and payment of probation officers, and give early consideration to the question of the co-ordination of after-care work for juvenile offenders and young prisoners, with a view to the establishment of a central organisation to encourage the co-operation of authorities, societies, and committees concerned, to reduce the overlapping of visiting and inquiry, and to arrive at a standard system of records which would be available for the information of each agency concerned?
      The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): The suggestion will be borne in mind, but I do not feel able to take any action at the present time.
      Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the Home Secretary if he proposes to adopt the recommendation of the Departmental Committee on the training, appointment, and payment of probation officers and to appoint a Central Advisory Committee to assist the Department concerned with probation; if so, whether, in view of the limited nature of the Departmental Committee's recommendations as to the training of officers, the supervision of their work, and the keeping of records, and of the growing importance of probation work generally, he will take early action
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      as to the appointment of this Committee with adequate representation from the provinces in addition to representation from the Metropolitan area; and will he say whether he will permit members of the Advisory Committee to initiate discussion on questions connected with-probation without limiting them, as is suggested in the Report, to the consideration of matters referred to them?
      Mr. SHORTT: The answer to each part of the question is in the affirmative.

    EX-SERVICE MEN.

      POLICE CONSTABLES.
      Sir JAMES REMNANTasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Police-constable Kenzie, who rejoined the West Sussex police in 1919 after three years' service with His Majesty's forces in France during the late War, has been discharged as a result of a recent medical examination; and whether, in view of the request made by the Home Office in 1918 to watch committees to provide employment for discharged soldiers wherever possible and an earlier request from the Government to police authorities in Scotland to reinstate constables discharged as unfit for the Navy and Army, he would be prepared to urge police authorities to retain in the service the men who served in the late War even should they be found on medical examination to fall short of the approved standard of physical fitness?
      Mr. SHORTT: I am informed that after-this constable's discharge from the Army he was found to be physically unfit, for police duty owing to an accidental injury which he received during his military service, and he then obtained an appointment as inspector under the R. S. P.C.A. Subsequently his condition improved somewhat and he was reappointed to the force; but the improvement was not maintained and the police-authority recently decided that he should be discharged on gratuity as soon as he had obtained other employment. I understand he is returning to his former post with the R.S.P.C.A. This constable appears to have been treated with every consideration, and I do not think there is any occasion for me to communicate with police authorities generally in the sense which the hon. Baronet suggests.
      Sir J. REMNANT: Are there not other cases where ex-service men have been discharged—men who owing to his appeal were reinstated by the authorities since the Armistice and have carried on their duties quite satisfactorily Are they not being dismissed now on the ground of economy? Will he personally look into the matter and stop that as far as possible?
      Mr. SHORTT: If my hon. Friend will give me any particular instance, I will certainly look into it. The question, however, referred to a general appeal—to a circular letter to the authorities.
      Sir J. REMNANT: It was on a general appeal that they were reinstated.

      LAND SETTLEMENT, SCOTLAND.
      Sir MALCOLM SMITHasked the Secretary for Scotland (1) whether the land settlement schemes at Queensgarth and at Skaw, Shetland, which the Scottish Board of Agriculture stated they expected to complete by November, 1921, have yet been adjusted; if not, will he arrange that these settlements are now completed with as little delay as possible;
      (2) the number of ex-service men who have been placed on the land in Orkney and in Shetland, respectively, under schemes promoted by the Scottish Board of Agriculture, the number of applicants still awaiting settlement in these counties, and what prospects there are for an early adjustment of these?
      The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro): The number of ex-service men settled in Shetland under schemes promoted by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is 46. None have, so far, been settled in Orkney. The numbers of ex-service applicants on the Board's lists awaiting settlement are 165 in Orkney and 203 in Shetland. Schemes have reached an advanced stage for the settlement of holders at Store, Westness and Lopness in Orkney which will provide 20 new holdings and 10 enlargements, and at Fetlar, Skaw and Veensgarth in Shetland, where 44 new holdings and 59 enlargements will be provided. In the case of Skaw, arrangements have been completed for putting the scheme into operation at Martinmas, 1922. It is hoped that the procedure in connection with Veensgarth may be completed in time to allow.entry at the same date.

      LIQUOR TRAFFIC (STATE MANAGEMENT).
      Colonel Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Home Secretary what is the State Management District Council referred to in the Civil Services Estimates (Class II, 30), page 205; and, there being no provision for this council in the Estimates, why the whole of the accounting for the expenditure in connection with the State manager of the liquor trade in certain districts is left in the hands of this unauthorised body?
      Mr. SHORTT: I informed the hon. and gallant Member of the composition of this Council on the 8th March last, and stated that it had been appointed to assist the Secretary for Scotland and myself in the administration of the State Management districts. In these circumstances, it is the simplest and most economical arrangement that the responsibility of my right hon. Friend and myself for the accounting for the Vote should be discharged, not separately for England and Scotland through our two Departments, but through this single body.
      Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that Miss Hewitson, the lessee of the Crown Hotel at Wigton, near Carlisle, has been given notice by the State Management Committee to quit at Whitsuntide, though the licence has been in the hands of her family for 57 years without a single complaint; that this house has been purchased by the State Management Committee, in spite of the recommendation of the National Expenditure Committee that the acquisition of further licensed premises should cease; and whether he will have the matter reconsidered?
      Mr. SHORTT: The notice referred to was given in October last with a view merely, as explained to the tenant at the time, to enable a slight alteration to be made in the terms of her tenancy, which is an annual one terminable only by six months' notice expiring at Whitsuntide. As to the second part of the question, the house has not been purchased; I hold it on a lease which was concluded by the Central Control Board before the abolition of the Board and before the Committee on National Expenditure had been appointed.
      Sir A. HOLBROOK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this woman is in great trouble owing to her removal from the house in which she has earned her living for many years past?
      Mr. SHORTT: I am quite sure she is not, as she is not going to he removed.

    SCOTLAND.

      OIL BORINGS, MIDLOTHIAN.
      Viscount CURZONasked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement relating to the reported discovery of oil in Scotland; and whether he can state what is the estimated yield, if any?
      The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Bridgeman): I would refer my Noble Friend to the answer I gave yesterday to a question by the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire.

      DEER FORESTS.
      Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAYasked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Report of the Deer Forests Committee that they have reason to believe that since the figures in their Report were made up the stock in the forests has been considerably reduced, and that unless the Government desire a reversion to the state of things before the War they consider that an annual return of stock in deer forests should be ordered at once; and, if so, whether, having regard to the probable delay involved in framing and passing legislation to give effect to the whole or the bulk of the recommendations of the Committee, he will introduce legislation at an early date to carry out the suggestions made by the Committee for immediate action, namely, the extension of deer forests to be forbidden by Statute, except with special sanction from the Secretary for Scotland given after inquiry, an annual return of the stock of sheep and cattle in each deer forest to be made to the Board of Agriculture and local committees with independent chairman to classify the deer forests and determine the stock each should carry?
      Mr. MUNRO: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As
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      regards the latter portion I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave on 9th May to a question. by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Aberdeen.
      Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some clearances are in immediate prospect and can he give the House an assurance that legislation will be introduced on this Report before the House rises in August?
      Sir J. D. REES: How can legislation he attempted ill view of the admitted facts set out by the Committee that hardly any of this land can be made cultivatable' except at prohibitive expense and the counties cannot afford to lose this great. paying asset of taxation?
      Mr. MUNRO: I entirely appreciate the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Murray), but I cannot give a definite date at which legislation can be introduced. There certainly will be no avoidable delay.
      Sir J. D. REES: May I have an answer to my question, or is it out of Order?
      Mr. SPEAKER: The question was answered last week.
      Sir J. D. REES: With great respect, I did not ask it of the Secretary for Scotland, from whom, I think, it most. important to get a reply.

      WOMEN POLICE PATROLS.
      Mrs. WINTRINGHAMasked the. Home Secretary how many of the women Metropolitan patrols disbanded on the. recommendation of the Geddes Committee are now in receipt of unemployment benefit; and the total amount paid weekly?
      Mr. SHORTT: I am not at present in a position to give this information, but I am endeavouring to obtain it.
      Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what the net economy, if any, is likely to be as a result of this reduction?
      Mr. SHORTT: That has been stated over and over again. It is £20,000 a year. All these points have been taken into consideration.

    POST OFFICE.

      TELEPHONE SERVICE.
      Mr. HURDasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the decision to spend £9,500,000 this year upon telephone developments in this country, he will consult authoritative agricultural opinion, through such a body as the National Farmers' Union, as to the best means of increasing the use of the telephone in rural areas?
      The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Kellaway): I shall be happy to consider any concrete proposals which the National Farmers' Union may wish to put forward.
      Mr. H U RD: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any person he intends to appoint on this advisory council will be representative of the farming interest?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: I have already decided to appoint on it a representative of the agricultural interest.
      Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Will he represent Scottish agriculture?
      Mr. HURD: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by a representative of the agricultural interest?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: Someone who will represent the agricultural interest.
      Mr. HURD: Will it be someone who represents the farming interest or merely the landed interest?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: Oh, no; it will be much wider than that. It will be someone who will represent all interests concerned in agriculture.

      TWOPENNY STAMPS.
      Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYasked the Postmaster-General if he will make such arrangements as will enable those persons who have in their possession 2d. stamps on the date on which 1½d. postage comes into operation to receive on demand at a post office the cash or other stamps equivalent of the same?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: Yes, Sir, I will make a detailed announcement in the course of a few days.

      TELEPHONES (LISTENING-IN).
      Viscount CURZONasked the Post master-General whether he is aware that,
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      on any switchboard in the Norwich Telephone Exchange, notices have been placed directing the operators to listen to any calls from a certain subscriber and, if they are of a private character, to notify the superior for further action; and, if so, whether he can give the reason for such action in this case?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: The notices in question were exhibited in connection with a test made, in agreement with the sub scriber, for the purpose of satisfying him as to the accuracy of the Post Office record of the number of his calls.
      Viscount CURZON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the Postal Conference at Cheltenham the other day it was stated that the postal workers were themselves very averse to this habit of listening-in?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: I do not, like the habit. It is only allowed by agreement with the subscriber where there is a question of accuracy or where there is reason to believe that the telephone of the subscriber is being improperly used.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

      SOLDIERS' DEPENDANTS (MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS).
      Lord EUSTACE PERCYasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the dependants of soldiers who lost their lives in the late War are often summoned to towns at a distance from their homes for medical examination in connection with their pensions; whether they have hitherto been obliged to take these journeys at their own expense; and whether, in view of the hardship thus incurred by many who cannot afford this expense, he is now prepared either to issue free return railway vouchers to those dependants, as in the case of ex-service men attending medical boards or the appeal tribunal, or, alternatively, to allow examination in such cases to be carried out by the Ministry's local medical referees?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): My right hon. Friend is sympathetically considering this matter.

      MEDICAL BOARDS, SCOTLAND.
      Mr. D. GRAHAMasked the Minister of Pensions the number of doctors engaged on the various medical boards in the West of Scotland; whether they are permanently employed; what are the salaries paid to them; what are their duties; and whether they have received any instructions recently from his Department with respect to the need for economy in the assessment of disability allowances?
      Major TRYON: The personnel of these medical boards is drawn from a panel of some 200 local practitioners, who are employed on a sessional basis, and are paid at, the rate of 11s. 6d. for chairman, and £1 6s. 3d. for other members for each session of two hours. The boards are responsible to a small whole-time medical staff in charge of the arrangements for boarding and the provision of treatment in this area, and their duties are to assess the degree of disablement and to report generally on the medical aspect of the case. As regards the last part of the question, my right hon. Friend has stated repeatedly that no instruction of the nature suggested has been, or will be, issued by his Department.

      CALVES (SLAUGHTER).
      Sir HARRY HOPEasked the Minister of Agriculture what number of young calves are slaughtered annually in Great Britain; whether any restriction on the slaughter of young immature calves was imposed during the War; and whether, seeing that it would be of great service to the country if a practical scheme was devised whereby young calves, suitable for beef production, were preserved in order to maintain an increased supply of food for our population, he will take the matter into consideration?
      The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): According to the estimates based upon the annual June returns of livestock, the number of calves slaughtered in the United Kingdom in the year ending 4th June, 1921, was about 1,030,000, as compared with 1,500,000 during the previous 12 months, and an annual average of 940,000 in the five years ending 4th June, 1914. There is no reason for supposing that there has been any
      222
      abnormal slaughter of calves during the last 12 months. Many efforts were made during the War years to restrict the slaughter of calves by means of Orders, but in all cases they proved comparatively ineffective. This question has been carefully considered at different times during the last few years, and was also referred to the Livestock Advisory Committee which I appointed last year. The Committee did not favour the imposition of Government control, a view with which I agree, and I do not propose to take any action.
      Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say to what the decrease in slaughter has been due?
      Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The decrease simply means that we are returning to the normal conditions. There was an excessive slaughter of calves during the War period, due to certain War restrictions and the high price of milk.

      CANADIAN CATTLE EMBARGO.
      Sir DOUGLAS NEWTONasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the definite pledge given by Lord Ernie respecting the removal of the embargo upon the importation of Canadian cattle, and the conflicting statements which have been made respecting the alleged withdrawal of such pledge, the Government will be prepared to lay a, Paper detailing the steps actually taken in the matter?
      Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. Hurd) and the hon. Member for the Richmond Division of Yorkshire (Mr. Murrough Wilson).
      Captain W. SENN: What objection is there to laying such a Paper as is asked for, in view of the grave doubts in the mind of everyone as to the Government's attitude?
      Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I am prepared to lay the statement I made yesterday, but it has all been published already.
      Mr. STURROCK: Will the right hon. Gentleman also inform the House as to the pledge which Lord Long gave?
      Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.

      AIRCRAFT (PETROL TANKS).
      Mr. HOWARD GRITTENasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the fact that in the recent Government competition for designs of petrol tanks for use in aircraft, the first and second prizes were awarded to rubber-covered anti-fire safety tanks, he will consider the desirability of the use of rubber-covered tanks being enforced for commercial aeroplanes where the risk of fire and loss of life occurring after a crash is as great as with service aeroplanes?
      Mr. PARKER (for Captain Guest): My right hon. Friend agrees that the adoption of some form of safety tank is most desirable, and the Air Ministry is fully alive to the importance of the question. There are, however, practical difficulties in the way of enforcing the use of either the rubber-covered or other fire-proof tanks at present. In the interests of both service and commercial aviation, the whole question is being closely watched.
      Mr. GRITTEN: Is it not possible for the Air Ministry to put a certain amount of pressure on users of commercial aeroplanes, in view of the fact that, as I am informed, the Air Ministry make a subvention or subsidy to them?
      Mr. PARKER: I will convey the hon. Member's remark to my right hon. Friend.

      TRADE FACILITIES ACT.
      Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the present position in relation to the sum of £25,000,000 voted by this House in October, 1921, in order to stimulate trade and commerce; what amount out of this sum has been applied for and granted; the number of companies or individuals who have been helped by this fund; and whether the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee propose to submit a Report at an early date?
      The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): The hon. Member is under a misapprehension in thinking that the House ever voted a sum of £25,000,000, or that there is any fund of the nature he indicates. The Trade Facilities Act authorised the Treasury to guarantee loans raised by borrowers in the market to that amount.
      224
      Details of the amounts guaranteed up to 31st March last are given in House of Commons Paper 62/1922, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. Since that date further guarantees, amounting to £1,752,500, have been given, details of which will appear in the next quarterly statement under Section 1 (5) of the Act. Some of the guaranteed loans have already been placed, and I hope that the borrowers will issue the rest before long. I do not think that the Committee, whose functions are to advise the Treasury, will issue any Report for general publication.
      Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Are we to understand that the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee has no power of its own authority to approve these guarantees, but that the matter is in every case referred to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that he is responsible?
      Mr. YOUNG: Yes, that is so.

      NATIONAL DEBT.
      Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the conflicting statements that are being made as to the amount of the National Debt on 31st December, 1918, and on the 31st March, 1922, he will state in specific figures the total nominal value of the amount of national indebtedness on those dates?
      Mr. YOUNG: No figure has been published for 31st December, 1918. The figures on 31st December, 1919, and 31st March, 1922, respectively, were, as stated in the Budget speech (OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st May, 1922, col. 1024, Vol. 153), approximately £7,998,000,000 and £7,654,500,000.
      Mr. THOMSON: Is it possible to get the figure for 31st December, 1918, seeing that it was possible to get the figure for 31st December, 1919?
      Mr. YOUNG: I will have inquiries made as to whether that figure can be obtained with any accuracy and without undue labour.

      GENOA CONFERENCE.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister which Members 'f His Majesty's Government have visited

      225
      Genoa in an official capacity since the commencement of the Conference there; and whether the Colonial Secretary is attending, or will attend, the Genoa Conference or visit Genoa in an official capacity?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): The following Members of His Majesty's Government have visited Genoa in an official capacity in connection with the Conference:

      The Prime Minister.

      The Lord Chancellor.

      The Chancellor of the Exchequer.

      The Secretary of State for War.

      The Parliamentary Secretary, Department of Overseas Trade.

      The Secretary of State for the Colonies has not attended the Conference, and does not propose to visit Genoa.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether any statement can be made on the progress of the negotiations between Russia and the other nations assembled at Genoa; whether the suggestion of any public or international loan to Russia for reconstruction purposes has been put forward at the Conference; whether His Majesty's Government's representatives at Genoa have rejected this proposal; and whether an opportunity can be given for a discussion in this House before negotiations at Genoa are broken off?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that I can usefully make any statement as to the progress of the negotiations at the present stage. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, I have already said that I hope to find an opportunity for a statement by the Prime Minister shortly after his return to this country, and to provide facilities for a discussion on that occasion.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say when the Prime Minister expects to be back?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, I have no information as to that.
      Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is it the case that the United States Administration definitely refuse to attend the Conference at the Hague?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not been so informed. The only information I have on the subject is drawn from the Press, and is exactly to the contrary effect.
      Mr. RONALD McNEILL: When the statement is made by the Prime Minister, will an interval be allowed for its consideration before the House is called upon to discuss it?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, that is not what I have been asked to do hitherto. What I have said is that I will endeavour to arrange, at the earliest convenient opportunity after the Prime Minister has returned, that he should make a statement giving an account of his mission to Genoa, which it would then be open to the House to discuss. I do not think I can provide an unlimited number of days.
      Colonel GRETTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay Papers dealing with the whole subject before the discussion takes place?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not in a position at present to lay any Papers, but I have no doubt that I shall be in a position, or the Government will be in a position, to do so presently. The House, however, must make up its mind as to what it desires. Hitherto I have been pressed that at the earliest possible moment a statement shall be made and a discussion allowed. If that is what the House wishes, I will endeavour to arrange it. If, on the other hand, they want Papers and an interval for consideration, I will endeavour to meet their wishes in that respect. But they must not ask me for a day for a statement and a preliminary discussion, then for an opportunity for consideration and another discussion, and then for Papers and a third discussion.
      Lord ROBERT CECIL: I quite recognise, if I may say so, the reasonableness of what my right hon. Friend has said, but, notwithstanding that, will he endeavour to lay Papers at some time or other? My right hon. Friend will recognise that that has always been the practice of Parliament, and I am sure that he would be the last to depart from it.
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I really think it would be most convenient—I speak subject to correction, because the House

      227
      must understand that I cannot, when the circumstances are changing from day to day, give definite pledges—what I think would really be most convenient would be that, when the Conference is ended, certain Papers should be laid; that, as soon as those can be laid, the Prime Minister should make his statement—if the House can wait till then for his statement; and that we should have a discussion upon the Prime Minister's statement. I am not in a position to say exactly what we can do at the present time.
      Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Do we understand that the further Conference with the Russians at the Hague may take place without this House having an opportunity of discussing the matter?
      Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can give any information to the House as to the proceedings at Genoa on Monday, 15th May?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not yet received a complete account of yesterday's discussions, but, as far as my information goes, they appear to have proceeded favourably and in an atmosphere of general agreement.
      Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Have the Bolshevists accepted the position that no separate treaty shall be made while the Commission is sitting at the Hague?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot say.
      Mr. R. McNEILL: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been called to a statement made by the editor of the "Observer," who is in close communication with the Prime Minister, to the effect that the Entente is dead, and has been killed by M. Poincaré, and can he describe that as a "malicious invention"?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I did observe the statement. I cannot challenge the accuracy of my hon. Friend's quotation, for I have only my memory to trust to of what I read, but I did observe the statement to which I think he refers, and it was prefaced by words which he has omitted, and indeed has endeavoured in his question to give the opposite impression. They were words disclaiming the right of Mr. Garvin, the editor of the "Observer," to be in any sense the mouthpiece of the Prime Minister.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not the case that Mr. Garvin praises every action of the Prime Minister while the "Times" does not?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, that is not the case. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman reads the "Observer" with the attention it deserves, he will know that the editor has expressed considerable disapproval of the Prime Minister several times quite recently.
      Mr. McNEILL: Will my right hon. Friend answer the last part of my question, whether this statement is a malicious misrepresentation?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know whether it is a malicious misrepresentation, but it is, as I understand, an expression of the views of the editor of the "Observer." It is not an expression of the views of the Prime Minister or His Majesty's Government. When similar views were imputed to the Prime Minister I denied them on his behalf categorically in this House.

      ROYAL NAVY (NEW CONSTRUCTION).
      Commander BELLAIRSasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that originally our representatives at Washington agreed not to lay down any new capital ship and this was altered to laying down two capital ships and scrapping four "King George" class capital ships because Japan was retaining one post-Jutland capital ship; whether the Committee of Imperial Defence believe the commencement of these ships this financial year to be vital for such a reason; and whether, seeing that only £127,040 is to be spent on each of them this financial year, the whole matter can be postponed for reconsideration next year, when a much larger expenditure is involved?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, since His Majesty's Government expressed their readiness to accept the original American proposals regarding capital ships. This agreement was, however, contingent on the unqualified acceptance of the proposals by the other Powers concerned. The subsequent insistence of Japan on the retention of the "Mutsu" made a considerable difference

      229
      in the efficiency of the proposed Japanese fleet, inasmuch as the retention of this vessel gave her two post-Jutland ships ("Mutsu" and "Nagato") of the latest design. As my hon. and gallant Friend will realise, this had the effect of disturbing to an appreciable extent the equilibrium of the American scheme and, as a result, the United States Government felt bound to insist on completing the "Washington" and "Colorado" or two other post-Jutland ships of the "West, Virginia" class. In these altered circumstances the British Government had no alternative, if the approved proportionate ratios were to be maintained, but to build two new ships. This was recognised by the Conference as unavoidable in the circumstances, and provision was therefore inserted in the Naval Treaty accordingly. As regards the second and third parts of the question, the Government, before deciding on the commencement of the two capital ships this financial year, reviewed fully and carefully all relevant considerations.

      HOFFMANN MANUFACTURING COMPANY.
      Mr. HANNONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the number of shares now held by the Government in the Hoffmann Manufacturing Company; what is their estimated realisable value; whether the accounts to the 31st December last of this company have been completed; and what is the amount of profit or loss for the year?
      Sir R. HORNE: In reply to the first part of the question I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Wigan on the 15th February last. It would not be in the public interest to give the estimated realisable value of the shares. The accounts of the company to 31st December last have been completed. After providing for all charges, including interest on loans made by the Ministry of Munitions and preference dividend paid, and for amounts written off, the balance to the credit of profit and loss account was reduced during the year from £207,160 to £75,053.

      UNITED STATES (BRITISH DEBT).
      Mr. HANNONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether interest is being paid to the United States Government on
      230
      the unpaid interest, amounting to 598,373,000 dollars, which has accrued during the three years ended 31st March, 1922?
      Sir R. HORNE: The answer is in the negative.

      PENSIONS.
      Mr. HANNONasked the Chancellor' of the Exchequer whether he can state' the total sum provided for in this year's. Estimates for pensions of all kinds, including war pensions, old age pensions, Civil Service pensions, ordinary Navy and Army pensions, inclusive of retired pay, and all other kinds of pensions which may be a charge upon national revenue?
      Sir R. HORNE: Exclusive of pensions paid to such bodies as the police by local authorities, who receive Exchequer grant's, the total sum provided in the Estimates for pensions of all kinds is approximately £136 millions.

      OLD AGE PENSIONS.
      Mr. HALLSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people who have applied for the old age pension have been refused on the following grounds, having been in receipt of Poor Law relief, and not having been resident in the country for the previous 12 years; how many are receiving less than their full amount of 10s. because of other income or savings; and how many are receiving a reduced pension owing to pensions being granted for the loss of a son in the late war?
      Sir R. HORNE: The number of old age pensioners in receipt of a pension of less than 10s. a week was 70,458 on 31st March last. I regret that the rest of the information asked for is not available.

      GRAMPIAN ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL.
      Mr. BRIGGSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that when the Grampian Electricity Supply Bill was before the Select Committee it was definitely stated in evidence that if the promoters obtained a State guarantee of their debenture issue it was their intention to refer to this in their prospectus; and will he guard the public from being

      231
      misled as to the form of the State guarantee?
      Sir R. HORNE: If a guarantee is given under the Trade Facilities Act the Advisory Committee, appointed under that Act, will scrutinise the prospectus and their approval will have to be obtained before the prospectus is issued, so that there is no danger of the public being misled as to the form of the State guarantee.
      Mr. BRIGGS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think the best way to safeguard the public interest would be to withdraw the guarantee?
      Sir R. HORNE: That would be to turn our back on the whole principle of the Trade Facilities Act, which is intended to increase employment in this country.
      Mr. BRIGGS: Is the principle of the Trade Facilities Act to invest in speculative matters?
      Sir R. HORNE: The principle of the Trade Facilities Bill is to assist by guarantee to enable people, who cannot find the requisite financial facilities at present to proceed with works which are adjudged to be of public benefit.
      Mr. BRIGGS—
      Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not debate the matter further.

      EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
      Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total amount of Excess Profits Duty outstanding on 31st March, 1922; how much of it was due on 31st March, 1921; and how much was due prior to that date and, if any, since what period?
      Sir R. HORNE: The approximate amount of unpaid Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) in assessment, less sums shown due to be remitted, on the 31st March, 1922, was £296,000,000. Of this amount it is estimated that approximately 40 per cent. relates to assessments made in 1921–22, 35 per cent. to assessments made in 1920–21, and the balance to assessments made in prior years. It will be understood that these arrears do not represent finally ascer-
      232
      tained liabilities. Considerable sums, especially as regards the earlier assessments, are subject to adjustment on appeal or otherwise, and it is anticipated that the duty to be ultimately received by the Exchequer will fall short of the amount in assessment.

      WORKS OF ART (SALE).
      Colonel NEWMANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the large sums that are being realised by the sale of historic pictures and works of art either at the hammer or when sold by private treaty and will he consider the levying of a duty on the net proceeds of such sales when the sale is made by the actual owner during his lifetime or within five years of his death?
      Sir R. HORNE: I regret that I cannot see my way to adopt this suggestion.
      Colonel NEWMAN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think when a picture like the "Blue Boy" goes to America, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might get some money out of it?
      Sir W. DAVISON: Will the right hon. Gentleman give further consideration to the question of an export duty on works of art other than by living artists?
      Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise here.

      PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (OFFICIAL REPORT).
      Mr. MALONEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the reasons for increasing the cost of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings of this House from 3d. to 1s.; whether he is aware that this action is widely resented 'by many persons who, in view of the curtailed reports printed in newspapers, prefer to read the accounts as published officially; that the extra cost presses particularly on small provincial newspapers, political organisations, societies, and other bodies; whether the free copies to Members are charged to the House of Commons Vote, and the copies to Government Departments to the Votes of those Departments; and whether, in view of the fact that the remainder cannot be expected to be sold at an economic figure to cover all these charges, and in view of the desirability of

      233
      not placing any restrictions upon the circulation of the deliberations of Parliament, he will take steps to arrange for the cost to be reduced to a more reasonable figure?
      Mr. YOUNG: I have been asked to reply. As regards the first three parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Torquay and the hon. Member for the Bother Valley Division of Yorkshire on the 14th February last. The answer to the fourth part of the question is in the negative the cost of free copies being borne on the Vote for Stationery and Printing. The suggestion in the last part of the question that the copies placed on sale are priced at a figure calculated to cover the cost of free issues is incorrect; the price fixed covers only the proportionate cost of the copies offered for sale. In these circumstances, I regret that I am unable to consider a reduction in price until it is justified by a fall in production costs.
      Mr. MALONE: Was the matter referred to the Publications and Debates Reports Committee and, if not, may I ask Mr. Speaker whether this should not have been done?
      Mr. YOUNG: I am afraid I could not say off-hand. Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice.
      Mr. FOOTasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the decision to raise the price of the OFFICIAL REPORT was at any time submitted to this House for its approval; and if he will state the number of copies circulated gratuitously daily and the number of copies sold?
      Mr. YOUNG: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The average number of copies of the OFFICIAL REPORT of Debates of the House of Commons circulated gratuitously is 1,700 and the average number of copies sold daily is 800.
      Mr. MALONE: Ought not this question to he referred to the Publications and Debates Reports Committee under the Standing Orders of the House?
      Mr. SPEAKER: I think the decision on this matter rests with the Treasury, but I was informed that the Committee did propose to make certain inquiries.
      Mr. HOWARD GRITTEN: As member of the Publications and Debates Repots Committee, may I may we have considered this matter and are going to consider it again.
      Mr. RAFFAN: What is the average number of copies sold at the increased price?
      Mr. YOUNG: If the hon. Member will put down a question, I shall be glad to get the information.
      Mr. FOOT: On what Vote can this matter be discussed?
      Mr. YOUNG: It is a little difficult to say. I should like an opportunity of considering it. No doubt there is one particular Vote on which questions of this sort can be discussed, and that is the salary of the Treasury Minister.
      Mr. GRITTEN: Does it not come on the Stationery Vote?
      Mr. YOUNG: No doubt.

      LAND TAX.
      Mr. RAFFANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total net produce of the Land Tax in Great Britain for the financial year 1921–22; what was the aggregate of the quotas of Land Tax for Great Britain as fixed in the year 1798; and to what amount that aggregate had been reduced by redemptions and otherwise at the end of March, 1922?
      Sir R. HORNE: The approximate net receipt of Land Tax in Great Britain in 1921–22 was £620,000. The aggregate of the quotas of Land Tax for Great Britain as fixed in 1798 was £1,905,077. At 31st March, 1922, this amount had been reduced by redemptions and otherwise to approximately £908,000.

      INHABITED HOUSE DUTY.
      Mr. RAFFANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the aggregates of the annual values of houses as assessed for Inhabited House Duty; and what was the total net produce of that duty in England, in Scotland, and in Great Britain as a whole, respectively, for the financial year 1921–22?
      Sir R. HORNE: As the answer is in tabular form, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      Following is the table:

      INHABITED HOUSE DUTY.

      Year 1921–22.

      —

      England.

      Scotland.

      Great Britain.

      £

      £

      £

      Estimated aggregate annual value of houses assessed.

      86,750,000

      6,250,000

      93,000,000

      Approximate Net Receipt of duty

      1,830,000

      140,000

      1,970,000

      The next produce for the year 1921–22 is not yet ascertained, but it will probably approximate to the net receipt stated.

      INCOME TAX.
      Mr. RAFFANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the aggregates of the incomes brought under the review of the Department for Income Tax under Schedule A; and what was the total net produce of Income Tax under Schedule A in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and in the United Kingdom as a whole, respectively, for the financial year 1921–22?
      Sir R. HORNE: As the answer contains figures in tabular form, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      The answer is as follows:
      Income Tax statistics for 1921–22 have not yet been finally ascertained. The following provisional estimates are available:

      —

      Gross Income Schedule A. for 1921–22.

      Net receipt Income Tax Schedule A. in 1921–22.

      £

      £

      England

      248,000,000

      38,500,000

      Scotland

      29,400,000

      3,750,000

      Ireland

      15,600,000

      750,000

      United Kingdom

      293,000,000

      43,000,000

      Under the present system of graduation and differentiation of the Income Tax, with personal allowances and deductions granted from the total income, a "net produce" can only be given for the tax as a whole and cannot be stated for any separate schedule by itself.

      GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS (COST).
      Commander BELLAIRSasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the weight of a
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      copy of last year's Navy Estimates was 2 1bs. ½ oz. and the price 4s. 6d. nett, and the weight of this year's Navy Estimates is 1 1b. 7 oz. and the price 15s. nett; whether he is aware that there is a similar extraordinary increase in the cost of all Government publications; and, in view of the reduction in the cost of paper and printing, whether he will explain the policy causing these charges?
      Mr. YOUNG: As the answer is a long one, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
      The following is the answer:
      The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part of the question, it is necessary to differentiate between the two broad classes of Government publications, namely, Parliamentary publications and Stationery Office publications. Stationery Office publications have always been priced so as to cover, as far as possible, costs of printing, paper, binding, etc. Parliamentary publications, on the other hand, were up till the end of the first Session of last year priced according to a scale which made no provision for the cost of setting up the type, it having been the practice for nearly 90 years to recover in the sale price only the cost of paper and press-work,i.e., the additional cost of making the publication available to the general public. In the autumn of last year, owing to the continued high cost of production and the increasing necessity for economy, the whole field of the pricing and distribution of Government publications was again reviewed, and it was decided that the process of transferring Parliamentary publications, wherever possible, to the Stationery Office publications category

      237
      (in order to avoid the necessity for free distribution to Members of Parliament) should be continued, and that, at the same time, the scale of charges for Parliamentary publications should be revised to include cost of composition and also increased costs of paper and press-work. In framing the new scale of charges, due consideration was given to the fact that printing costs had already begun to fall, but even so the new prices worked out on the average at about three times the old prices. The position will be reviewed when costs have fallen sufficiently to justify a reduction in the prices of this class of publications. The question of issuing Command Papers as Stationery Office publications was dealt with very fully by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in a reply given to the hon. and gallant Member on the 13th December, 1920.

      GOVERNMENT STAFFS (GRADING).
      Captain THORPEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether there are any departmental classes where the classification is different for men and women; and, if so, when the Treasury intends to alter the existing classification so as to carry out Clause 2 of his Resolution of 5th August, 1921?
      Mr. YOUNG: I am not aware of any departmental classes differently graded according to the sex of the officer engaged upon the work. The second part of the question does not therefore appear to arise.
      Captain THORPE: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to communicate with him and give him the information?
      Mr. YOUNG: Yes, it would be very interesting to hear from the hon. and gallant Member what particular cases he has in view.
      Lord ROBERT CECIL: Whatever may have been the design, is it not in fact the case that women are treated quite differently from men?
      Mr. YOUNG: No, on the whole I think that suggestion is quite without foundation. Again, I am quite sure the Noble Lord would not have made it without having particular cases in view. If he has cases in view I shall be very interested to learn of them.
      Lord R. CECIL: Have not communications been constantly addressed to the
      238
      Treasury, and replies made in every case prepared by skilled advice so as to make it appear that it is not a real case, but the broad fact remains—
      Mr. SPEAKER: The Noble Lord is making a statement of fact, and not asking a question.

      ARTERIAL ROADS, LONDON.
      Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he will exhibit in the tearoom a map or maps showing the arterial roads which are being constructed in connection with the scheme of finding employment for persons residing in the Metropolis?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. Neal): Yes, Sir; I shall be glad to comply with the request of my hon. Friend.

    COAL INDUSTRY.

      PRICES.
      Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Secretary for Mines if he is aware that the average declared f.o.b. value of coal exported in March was 22s. 3d. per ton, while the general price charged to cottage customers during the same month was in the neighbourhood of 60s.; and can he say whether, in any previous period in the history of the coal industry, there has been such a difference between the price obtained for coal exported and that of coal sold to home consumers?
      Mr. BRIDGEMAN: My hon. Friend is not comparing like with like. One of his figures relates to the average f.o.b. value of various qualities of coal, sold in cargoes and intended almost exclusively for industrial purposes, and the other relates to the retail price of a particular type of high class coal, sold in small quantities and subject to additional charges for cartage and delivery.
      Sir R. CLOUGH: May I have an answer to the last part of the question?
      Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am afraid I cannot answer that.
      Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Secretary for Mines the average price of kitchen coal used in the ordinary cottage homes in March, 1913, and March, 1922, respectively; and how does he estimate that these two prices were made up?
      Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No records are kept of the average of retail prices of household coal. They differ even for the same quality of coal in accordance with local conditions and the cost of transport. Nor have I any information which would enable me to analyse retail prices.

      SAFETY APPLIANCES.
      Mr. CAIRNSasked the Secretary for Mines what action his Department is taking to introduce into coal mines and other mines, in order to reduce accidents, appliances such as overwinding inventions at shaft heads; is his Department introducing any means to guard against falls of roof and sides, and thereby lessen accidents to life and limb; is he aware of accidents caused by gas in mines and of accidents by shots missing fire; and, if so, will he introduce into the mines the best known safety appliances to reduce such accidents to the lowest possible minimum?
      Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am well aware of the dangers to which the hon. Member refers, and can assure him that they receive constant attention from the Mines Inspectors and at the headquarters of the Mines Department. The compulsory use of detaching hooks and of automatic contrivances to prevent overwinding is already provided for by Section 40 of the Coal Mines Act., 1911, and there are detailed requirements in the Mines Acts and Regulations for the prevention, so far as possible, of accidents from other causes. As regards the testing and use at mines of new safety appliances I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 1st May to the hon. Member for Bedwelty.

      SUBSIDISED HOUSES (RENTALS).
      Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Minister of Health whether there is within his knowledge any case of a house built with a State subsidy for which an economic rent is being charged; whether he is satisfied with the existing system of rent fixing in case of a difference of opinion by arbitration; and in how many cases hitherto recourse has been had to such arbitration?
      The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond): So far as I am aware, none of the houses completed to date have been let at a rent which would cover all charges on the capital cost. As regards
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      the second and third parts of the question, I am satisfied that some, system of arbitration is necessary to determine differences of opinion in cases between the Minister and local authorities as to the rents to be charged. The number of cases in which recourse to the tribunal has been found necessary to date is 56, of which 30 have been decided The number of cases in which agreement has been reached without recourse to the tribunal is approximately 1,100.

      EGYPT (PROHIBITED MEETING)
      Mr. MILLSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Elwy El Gazzar Bey, a member of the Legislative Assembly, issued 1,500 invitations to princes and representative people from all over Egypt to attend a meeting in his country residence at Shebin-el-Kom, Mennfeya Province, on the 21st April last, where members of the Wafd were to speak on the present situation in Egypt; that the meeting was prohibited that day, although it was to he indoors, and although there is no law prohibiting indoor meetings; that means of preventing the arrival of the people from other parts of Egypt were adopted, such as surrounding the residence by 96 officers and men and the occupation of all the roads leading to the residence by the Sudanese Camel Corps; that this siege lasted from 6 until 9.45 p.m., and all the bridges in Kalybeya and Mennfeya Provinces were opened all day to prevent people travelling; and whether such measures were carried out under martial law?
      Mr. HARMSWORTH: I have no information as to the nature of the measures taken by the Egyptian Government to prohibit this meeting. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon, Member for Barnard Castle on 10th May.

      MARRIAGE REGULATIONS (ALIENS).
      Mr. RENDALLasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, seeing that the Registration of Foreigners Act of 1906 provides that, when satisfactory arrangements have been made with any foreign country, Orders in Council may be issued requiring the

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      foreign party to a proposed marriage to notify the marriage authority that he or she is subject to the foreign law, and punishing anyone who solemnises the marriage without a certificate that the foreign law has been satisfied, and seeing that these provisions are a dead letter, as no such Orders in Council have ever been issued, he can say whether any attempt has been made to come to an arrangement on this matter with foreign countries; and, if not, why not?
      Mr. HARMSWORTH: Considerable correspondence has passed between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of foreign countries with regard to the conclusion of the arrangements contemplated by Section 2 of the Act. It revealed many serious difficulties in the way of arriving at comprehensive arrangements owing to the variety and complexity of the marriage laws of different foreign countries, though as the outcome it appeared probable that in the case of certain countries such arrangements could he made. As an initial step, however, it seemed necessary to complete the arrangements to be made under Section I of the Act and the issue of the Order in Council contemplated by Section 3, matters which were in process of settlement when interrupted by the outbreak of War.
      Mr. RENDALL: Is it our intention to carry out the Act, and to make arrangements?
      Mr. HARMSWORTH: Yes. I hope the activities which were interrupted by the War will shortly be resumed.

      SMALL ARMS AND CARTRIDGE FACTORY (FIRE).
      Mr. ERSKINEasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that an extensive fire occurred early on the morning of the 6th instant in a small-arms and cartridge factory situated in Gillingham Street, near Victoria, and surrounded on four sides by shops and dwellings; and whether, in view of the high feeling prevailing in the neighbourhood as to such industries being carried on in a densely-populated area, he will give an assurance that adequate protection be given to adjacent owners and occupiers of premises?
      Mr. PARKER (for Mr. Shortt): These premises were licensed for filling safety
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      cartridges under conditions which fully safeguarded the public and the neighbouring shops or dwellings. The premises have not been used for this purpose for some time past. My right hon. Friend can assure the hon. Member that, should manufacture be resumed on the premises, the public will be adequately protected.
      Mr. MALONE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most of the "high feeling prevailing in the neighbourhood" is due to the arrival of the new Coalition candidate?

      ASIA MINOR (TURKS AND CHRISTIAN MINORITIES).
      Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: May I ask the Leader of the House if any reply has been received to the despatch of Lord Curzon in reference to the Committee investigating the butcheries in Asia Minor?
      Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. According to the latest information which has reached me—and I made inquiries a short time ago—no reply has yet been received.

RAILWAY FIRES ACT (1905) AMENDMENT BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow.

EMPIRE SETTLEMENT BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to he printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in, the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 122.]

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIR-MEN'S PANEL).
Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they

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had appointed Mr. Turton to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Chartered Associations (Protection of Names and Uniforms) Bill [Lords], the Bread Acts Amendment Bill, and the Gaming Bill [Lords]); Sir Hal-ford Mackinder as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Lunacy Bill [Lords] and the Canals (Continuance of Charging Powers) Bill); Mr. William Nicholson as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Constabulary (Ireland) Bill); Sir William Pearce as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Whale Fisheries (Scotland) (Amendment) Bill); and Mr. Rendall as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Law of Property Bill [Lords]).
Report to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That the following Members representing Scottish Constituencies are appointed to serve on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee:—RearAdmiral Adair, Mr. Adamson, Mr. Asquith, Sir Robert Balfour, Mr. George Barnes, Mr. Charles Barrie, Captain Wedgwood Bean, Mr. James Brown, Colonel Buchanan, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir William Watson Cheyne, Sir Godfrey Collins, Mr. Churchill, the Lord Advocate, Mr. Cowan, Sir Henry Cowan, Sir Henry Craik, Captain Elliot, Mr. Ford, Mr. James Gardiner, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Gilmour, Major Glyn, Mr. Duncan Graham, Mr. William Graham, Sir James Greig, Sir Leicester Harmsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Henderson, Mr. Hogge, Sir Harry Hope, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Hope, Mr. John Deans Hope, Lieut.-General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Mr. Jameson, Mr. Johnstone, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Kidd, Mr. Bonar Law, Mr. Murray Macdonald, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Sir Halford Mackinder, Mr. Robert McLaren, Sir Donald Maclean, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Macleod, Major McMicking, Mr. Macpherson, Mr. Macquisten, Mr. Munro,
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  Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray, Mr. Gideon Murray, Dr. Murray, Major William Murray, Mr. Nelson, Mr Pratt, Sir William Raeburn, Mr. Robertson, Mr. Rodger, Mr. Rose, Mr. MacCallum Scott, Mr. Alexander Shaw, Mr. William Shaw, Sir Malcolm Smith, Colonel Sir Alexander Sprot, Mr. Sturrock, Sir William Sutherland, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Frederick Thomson, Sir William Mitchell-Thomson, Mr. Wallace, Sir Archibald Williamson, Mr. Wilkie, Major Mackenzie Wood, Mr. William Young, and Sir George Younger.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Whale Fisheries (Scotland) Bill): Sir Gervase Beckett, Sir Arthur Fell, Mr. Finney, Lieut -Commander Kenworthy, Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel, Major-General Seely, Major Steel, Lieut.-Colonel Stephenson, Captain Watson, and Mr. James Wilson.

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Sir Burton Chadwick, Sir Newton Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Norton-Griffiths, and Mr. Pennefather; and had appointed in substitution: Major Barnett, Mr Barrand, Sir Davison Dalziel, and Lieut.-Colonel James.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Nine Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Lunacy Bill [Lords] and the Canals (Continuance of Charging Powers) Bill): Major Barnes, Mr. Cautley, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Captain Coote, Mr. Evans Davies, Mr. George Edwards, Mr. Dennis Herbert, Mr. Sidney Robinson, and Sir Robert Thomas; and (in respect of the Lunacy Bill [Lords] only) The Attorney-General; and (in respect of the Canals (Continuance of Charging Powers) Bill only) Mr. Neal and Mr. Hilton Young.

  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee C: Rear-Admiral Adair, Captain Ainsworth, Mr

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  Armstrong, Mr. George Balfour, Mr. Banton, Mr. James Bell, Sir Robert Bird, Major Borwick, Sir Thomas Bramsdon, Major Breese, Sir James Bruton, Mr. Carr, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Child, Brigadier-General Cockerill, Captain Coote, Sir Henry Cowan, Mr. Alfred Davies, Major Jonn Edwards, Mr. Foot, Mr. Forestier-Walker, Mr. Gange, Mr. Hayward, Mr. Holmes, Mr. G. W. H. Jones, Captain Loseby, Sir Murdoch Macdonald, Major McMicking, Mr. Mallalieu, Mr. Matthews, Mr. Morris, Mr. Mosley, Colonel Sir Henry Norris, Sir Percy Newson, Brigadier-General Sir Haeket Pain, Major Palmer, Mr. Perring, Captain Rankin, Lieut.-Colonel Raw, Sir Philip Richardson, Mr. Robert Richardson, Sir Samuel Scott, Mr. Sitch, Sir Malcolm Smith, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Tillett, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alfred Warren, Mr. Waterson, Dr. Worsfold, and Mr. Robert Young.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Constabulary (Ireland) Bill): The Attorney-General, Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shoe, Captain Wedgwood Bonn, Sir John Butcher, Mr. Churchill, Mr. Gilbert. Sir Hamar Greenwood, Mr. Rupert Gwynne, Mr. Hayes, Mr. Lindsay, Mr. John Jones, Mr. Lunn, Mr. Spoor, Field-Marshall Sir Henry Wilson, and Mr. Hilton Young.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

SCHOOL TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Herbert Fisher): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
A few weeks ago I happened to be reading in the pages of a contemporary newspaper an article on the subject of educational economy and it was pointed out that while we had been careful to economise to the disadvantage of the children we had been sedulous in avoiding the electoral difficulties which are supposed to attach to any controversy with the teaching body. That criticism is based upon a complete inversion of the true facts of the case. If anyone will turn to the Estimates of the Board of Education this year he will find that the net expenditure of the local education authorities on education this year is estimated at £75,450,000 against an estimate of £76,472,000 for last year. That is a figure which is certainly calculated to reassure the champions of the children, and the proceedings this afternoon will I hope finally dispose of the other portion of the indictment.
This Bill has been introduced to give effect, and to give literal effect, to a particular recommendation in the Report of the Committee on National Expenditure, commonly known as the Geddes Committee. There was a mythical sovereign in ancient times of whom it was said that everything which he touched turned to gold. Sir Eric Geddes is, in this regard, less fortunate than King Midas. He proposed an economy of no less than £18,000,000 in the field of education, and the Government have not seen fit to adopt. economies to a greater extent than £6,000,000, of which £3,000,000 had already been realised before the Geddes Committee was set up, and £2,300,000 will be realised if the House accept the present proposal of the Government. In other words, this Bill will give effect to one of the recommendations made by the Geddes Committee in the sphere of education. The Geddes Committee propose that there should be an inquiry into
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the whole subject of teachers' superannuation, and that, pending the results of that inquiry, the teachers should be asked to contribute 5 per cent. of their salaries in respect of their pensions.
It may be urged that, if a Committee be set up to inquire into the subject of teachers' superannuation, it will be right for the Government to await the result of the Report of that Committee before proceeding to ask teachers to make a contribution. That is a very obvious criticism. But we have had Departmental Committees upon the subject of teachers' superannuation, and the last Departmental Committee which dealt with the subject occupied 18 months with its inquiries. It is not in the interest of the public, and still less is it in the interests of the teachers, that an inquiry into this difficult and complicated subject should be stamped or hastened, and, for myself, I can conceive that my own attitude towards the Report of the Committee upon Teachers' Superannuation might he largely affected by the findings of the Committee which is about to examine the whole question of the percentage grants, for, pensions depending on salaries and salaries to a large extent being conditioned by the formula of the Board's grants, I can well imagine that these two inquiries are properly interdependent. The question therefore which the House has got to decide is whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to realise the economy of £2,300,000 and is to receive this contribution in the current year. Hon. Members will realise that that economy figured in the Board's estimate, and that in accepting the Board's estimate they have allowed for this Appropriation-in-aid. In other words we are this afternoon debating not an educational question. but a financial question.
Assuming that a sum of £2,300,000 is required in relief of the demand on the Treasury, there are, I submit, strong educational reasons for thinking that the economy can be best realised by the method proposed in this Bill, and cannot be so well realised by any other method. Let us assume that £2,300,000 has been taken off the sum available for the school medical service. A grave injury to the health of the children would inevitably result. Then assume that this sum is taken from the grants available for aid to students or for maintenance allowances

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or for scholarships. What would be the result? A large number of promising boys and girls who would be looking forward to the advantages of secondary education, or even university education, would find the avenue into those fields abruptly, and even painfully cut short. Suppose, again, that we required to take this sum from the grants available for school building or for structural repairs in the schools, then the long black list of schools the conditions of which are unsatisfactory and even insanitary—a matter which formed the theme of a most admirable speech by the hon. Member for Accrington (Major Gray) when the Estimates were presented—would be greatly lengthened. I am often told that there is considerable ground for economy in the direction of reducing the Board's inspectorate. Let us assume that the whole of the Board's inspectorate were abolished to-morrow, and that nothing were put in its place. The saving would only represent a small fraction of the economy which the Bill endeavours to secure.
Mr. HURD: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking account of the enormous amount of clerical labour attendant on the existing system?
Mr. FISHER: Yes, I am. There is another aspect in which I would invite hon. Members to view this proposal. It is altogether right and proper that teachers should have adequate pensions. The Government has no intention of going back to the unsatisfactory and, indeed, discreditable conditions which prevailed before the year 1918. But if the dead weight of non-effective expenditure reaches or threatens to reach a very high figure in respect of any public servants, it at once becomes a matter of financial importance to the Treasury either to limit the number of entrants into the pensionable body or to reduce the benefits under the pensions system, or to require a contribution towards the cost. Of these alternatives, the first would, in my opinion, be easily the worse. Speaking broadly, the nation wants not fewer teachers, but more teachers, and as the public system of education expands the number which it will require must necessarily increase. And if a constant supply of highly qualified teachers is to be obtained for the schools, their pension benefits must not be niggardly. Admitting all this, it may be said that it is still
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doubtful whether it would be equitable to review the Superannuation Act which was passed in 1918.
I fully agree that a Measure of this kind, upon which a large fabric of legitimate expectation is naturally and rapidly raised, must be touched with great caution and only after careful consideration. But on this I would remark, first, that the conditions have changed so greatly since I introduced the Bill in 1918 that Parliament is entitled to review the situation. As everyone knows, that Act was passed upon a non-contributory basis and it was made non-contributory, partly because it was felt that a contributory system involved great labour and expense in administration, partly because the prevalent salaries of teachers were then extremely low, and partly because under a contributory system it was felt that you must either have a fund which would be subject to periodical revaluation or else that the State must resort to one or more insurance companies, a procedure which was liable to another class of objection. Whatever value may be attached to these arguments, Parliament made the Act non-contributory. It is sometimes alleged that in doing so this House was not furnished with an adequate estimate of the cost. That is not so. The whole question of superannuation had been present to the minds of the Board of Education for several years. A number of distinguished actuaries had been consulted before the post of Government actuary had been established, and we were able to form an estimate, which I have no reason to think to be incorrect, upon the basis of the number of teachers then in the teaching service and upon the salaries which they received. Speaking on the Financial Resolution I explained that I did not intend to forecast what might be the increase in the number of teachers in this country due to the extension of our educational system. I added:
"As that grows, so must also the expenditure grow, both on salaries and on pensions. To carry the forecast beyond 10 years would involve too many problematical results."
I concluded:
"On the whole the best indication I can give of the expected cost of the present Measure is to say that at the present moment the salaries of teachers in grant-aided schools amount to something over £20,000,000 a year, and on those teachers and those salaries we expect the pension system 10 years from now to cost something

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like £2,500,000 per annum, of which £2,000,000 will be new money and the remainder is what the present system would cost if left unaltered."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th October, 1918; col. 76, Vol. 110.]
I have no reason to think that those figures were incorrect, given the assumptions upon which they were based. But one of those assumptions has been greatly changed by circumstances which have occurred since 1918. At that date, when the Superannuation Bill was first introduced, the average salary of the elementary teacher was £104. It is now about £250, and next year, when the Burnham Scales will exercise their full effect, it will rise to £261. The average salary of the secondary teacher in 1913–14 was £173. In 1920—I am sorry I have not the figures for 1918—it had risen to £267, largely owing to the change of the grant system, and when the secondary teacher has reached his correct position in the Burnham Scale his average salary will be £400.
Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERY: Is that for male teachers only?
4.0 P.M.
Mr. FISHER: Male and female. It is the average. There has been, thus, an average, rise of about 150 per cent. in salary expenditure, and since the pension is assessed on the average salary of the last five years of service the dead-weight pension expenditure has greatly increased since Parliament passed the Act of 1918. The Government Actuary estimates that in 1929–30 the cost of the Superannuation Act, upon the basis of the universal adoption and permanent retention of the Burnham Scale, will amount to £4,400,000, and ultimately, on the same basis, to £9,500,000. It is quite true that some increase of salaries was expected in 1918. I hoped for it; I expected it; and I warned the House that it was likely to occur. It was, however, quite uncertain at that date bow far local authorities would be inclined to go in meeting the demands of the teachers. Not even the most sanguine apostle of the teachers anticipated that the salaries would rise either so far or so fast as, under the stress of the rapidly-increasing depreciation of money, they eventually did rise. Consequently, I suggest that it is not inequitable that Parliament should review the provision that was made in 1918 for teachers' pensions in the light of the
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great changes in the salary position that have occurred since, and, more especially, in view of the grave financial situation with which the country is faced. I think I may legitimately add this further consideration, that, when I was pressing upon the House the necessity of providing an exceptionally liberal pension scheme for teachers, I urged that one of the arguments for the adoption of that scheme was the very moderate rate of salaries which then prevailed. Indeed, at that time it seemed that the only way in which the Government could really help effectually to raise the position of the teacher was by offering him a liberal pension, since it was quite uncertain how far local education authorities would be inclined to meet the teachers' demands in respect of salaries. Let us suppose this proposition is granted. Let us suppose that there is a general feeling in the House that, in view of all these circumstances, Parliament is entitled to review the provision which was made in 1918. It may still be urged that it is unfair to single out the teachers in our grant-aided schools for adverse treatment. I have great sympathy with the view of the teachers that they should not be so singled out. The teaching profession in this country has been so long underpaid and under-estimated that they have a right to be suspicious of any Measure which seems to imply adverse discrimination against them. It would clearly be wrong to select one profession, and impose upon it a levy from which other comparable members of the community were exempt. But I do not think, if we review the history of events during the last five and a half years, that this objection can be substantiated.
Let me, first of all, remind the House that the provision made in 1918 was exceptionally generous, and a great advance upon the benefits which teachers had received under the older Superannuation Acts. Before the Act of 1918 the teachers in secondary and technical schools drew no State pensions at all, and they had no reason to suppose that they would be given State pensions. Then they found themselves presented unexpectedly with the benefits of a liberal pension scheme, not only in respect of future service, but in respect of back service as well. The elementary teachers were not beneficiaries to the same extent, seeing that they were

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already in a pension scheme. But the benefits derived from the Superannuation Act previous to that of 1918 were of a very meagre character, and, in my opinion, not only insufficient but even discreditable to the State. A certificated teacher retiring at the age of 65, after 43 years' service, would, in general, have received a State pension of £40—£1 for each year of service—and might have received a State pension rising to £55. In addition, he received a small annuity derived from his own contributions.
Contrast with this wholly insufficient scheme the benefits obtainable under the Act of 1918, and, in order to bring the contrast more clearly before the mind of the House, I will take two illustrations. I will take two awards recently made under the Act of 1918, and I will contrast the benefits which have been paid to those two teachers under that Act with the benefits that they would have received if the Act had not been passed. The first is the case of a male certificated teacher who retired recently after 43 years' service. If the Act of 1918 had not been passed he would have received a State pension of £53 15s., and an annuity derived from his own contributions of £13 5s. 4d., or a total of £67 0s. 4d. In effect, he received under the Act of 1918 an annual pension of £161 16s. 10d., a lump sum of £463 19s., and, in addition, an annuity of £12 3s. 8d. derived from his own contributions under previous Acts. Roughly speaking, we may say that his pension benefits have been trebled. The second case is that of a woman who retired last year after 42 years' service. Under the previous Act she would have received a State pension of £47 3s., and an annuity derived from her own contributions of £7 10s. 8d., or a total of £54 13s. 8d, Under the Act of 1918 she did, in effect, receive a pension of £126 6s. 4d., a lump sum of £353 13s. 8d., and an annuity derived from her own contributions under previous Acts of £6 17s. 4d., so her benefit also has been more than trebled. These great additional benefits were conferred upon the teachers in our grant-aided secondary and elementary schools. They were not conferred upon the professors and lecturers at Oxford and Cambridge, where, as the Royal Commission has reminded us, there is no pension scheme, nor were they conferred upon the seven
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Universities which I have the honour to represent in this House. The teachers in those Universities for the most part belong to the Federated Universities System, and pay a contribution normally of 5 per cent. towards their pensions. Moreover, they are not in enjoyment of equivalent benefits in respect of back service. In the few public schools which are rich enough to afford a pension system, contributions are, I think, generally required. The teachers in private venture schools are, of course, unpensioned from public funds. In contradistinction to other members of the teaching body, the teachers in our grant-aided schools have received a benefit of a non-contributory and most generous pension scheme, and discrimination, therefore, has not been against them, but in their favour.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: Could my right hon. Friend tell us how the lump sum paid is arrived at?
Mr. FISHER: I am coming to that question in a moment. The same conclusion is forced upon us if we regard the teachers in our grant-aided schools, not as members of the teaching profession, but as being what, in effect, they are, the employés of local authorities, managers, or governing bodies of schools. Here, again, they alone receive the benefits of a non-contributory State pension. Directors of secondary education and inspectors employed by local education authorities receive no State pension at all, and discrimination in this respect, again, is not against teachers in graint-aided schools, but in their favour. I see it urged that because the teacher is given pension advantages upon the same basis as the advantages which are conceded to the Civil Service, he should be treated as a civil servant. But the teacher is not a civil servant. The teacher is not employed by the Government; he is employed by local authorities, managers, or governing bodies. Moreover, he enjoys privileges which are denied to the civil servant. The teacher can leave the teaching service, take up another calling, return to the school, and reckon all his teaching years for pension. A number of them do this. They go out of the school and get married and bring up a family and then return to the school as married women—for I think it is desirable that there should be married women teaching in our schools

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—but that is obviously a very great advantage to them. It is not shared by civil servants. Their service, if it is to pensionable, must be continuous. The civil servant is debarred from political activities. The teacher is not so debarred. I submit, if this question be looked at dispassionately, it is clear that there has been no adverse discrimination against the teachers in our grant-aided schools. What the Bill in fact seeks to affirm is that salaries arranged by agreement between the local education authority and the teacher having risen very much further than it was ever expected they would rise when the Act was passed, and the Estimates on the faith of which this House was invited to pass that Act standing in need of a corresponding Measure of correction, it is legitimate for Parliament to review the whole situation. Even when the 5 per cent. contribution is made, the teacher upon the new salary scale will still be a good deal better off than he had any reason to expect when the original Act of 1918 was passed.
There remain three other objections to be considered. The first, put forward on behalf of the teachers' representatives, is that if they had been aware of this proposed contribution to pension a further increase of salary would have been demanded by the teachers' panel on the Burnham Committee. It is quite true that when these discussions in the Burnham Committee were proceeding it had not been suggested that the basis of the Act of 1918 should be altered. I do not imagine that in the discussions at the Burnham Committee salary scales were in any way specifically adjusted to pensions benefits, for the local authorities, not having to pay these, had very little interest in the matter. I quite concede to the teachers' representatives the point that they would probably have put forward demands for increased salaries had they been informed that any alteration was contemplated in the scale of pensions. On the other hand, the salaries of teachers were not left, and could not be left, to the representatives of the teachers and the representatives of the local authorities alone to settle. There was a third party to the transaction, and that third party was the Government, and the Government could not possibly have accepted any higher scales of salaries than those which were in fact
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proposed. Had further increases been insisted upon, all the arrangements contemplated by the Burnham Committee would, I am afraid, have fallen to the ground. I do not think, therefore, there is any substance in the contention that there is any breach of faith in asking Parliament to review the Pensions Act of 1918.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: Were any representations made to the teachers to the effect that they ought to accept the Burnham scale, even though it did not go as far as they wished, because they were receiving non-contributory pensions?
Mr. FISHER: No, I have made no such representations.
Lord R. CECIL: Were they made, not by you, but by others?
Mr. FISHER: Does the Noble Lord mean by the local authorities? I was not present at the discussion in the Burnham Committee. It consisted of representatives of the local authorities and representatives of the teachers. It is true some of my officials were present in order to supply facts and figures, but they were expressly instructed that they were not to commit the Board. The Board was to be left perfectly free to consider the recommendations of the Committee in the light of the financial situation of the country. In conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer I considered the recommendations when the Burnham Report was made, and I can say with confidence, the Government would not have been in a position to have accepted any scales higher than those actually proposed. Then again it has been pointed out that the sum of £2,300,000 which the Government expect to realise from this contribution during the financial year, exceeds the expenditure to be incurred this year in respect of teachers' pensions. That is quite true, but there is really no substance in the objection, for is it not always a feature of every contributory scheme, in its initial stages, that more is paid in than is paid out? The real point to be considered is whether or no the benefits which the teachers are to receive from their contributions will be adequate? Is the State likely to bear, is it going to bear, its fair share of the cost of the scheme? According to the calculations submitted to me, which I have already communicated to the House, the

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ultimate cost of the scheme is reckoned at £9,500,000 annually, and consequently the annual contribution of £2,300,000 does not cover the annual cost of the scheme to the State. But this contribution of five per cent. is intended by the Board, as it was intended by the Geddes Committee, to be a purely provisional arrangement. It stands to reason that a flat rate contribution of 5 per cent. to a pensions scheme does not operate evenly as between different age groups. It may well be that the Departmental Committee which is to examine the whole subject of teachers' superannuation will find it necessary to make corrections in the light of that point.
This, however, I do say, that the older teachers who are nearing the time of retirement, and indeed all teachers in middle life, will receive benefits far in excess of their contributions under this Bill. According to the figures supplied to me by the Government actuary, a male teacher aged 50 years for his 5 per cent contribution will receive a 45 per cent. benefit; a male teacher of the age of 40 will receive an 18 per cent. benefit, and of the age of 30 a 10 per cent. benefit. The benefits of teachers under 30 will be under 10 per cent., but still in excess of their contribution. I quite admit that a flat rate contribution of 5 per cent. is a very rough and ready expedient. It will necessitate correction, but although it is true that while that contribution is being levied—I hope it may only be levied for one year—the young teacher will pay rather more than he ought to pay on a strictly actuarial calculation of the incidence of the burden as between different age groups, is it really an inequitable arrangement, regard being had to its temporary character, and when we remember that the younger teacher is now enjoying, and expects to enjoy, a very much higher salary than was enjoyed by the older teacher during the earlier years of his service? I do not think there is really any great injustice in this temporary proposal, and I hope it will commend itself to the judgment and the equity of the House.
Mr. BETTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what are the terms of reference of the Departmental Committee?
Mr. FISHER: I think I have already read the terms of reference to the House, but I very gladly do so again. They are as follow:
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"To inquire what modifications are desirable in the system of superannuation established by the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1918, regard being had both to the economy of public funds and to the provision of adequate and suitable benefits for members of the teaching profession, as well as to the effect which such modifications are calculated to have on the scheme framed under the terms of the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1919."
Sir PHILIP MAGNUS: Do I understand my right hon. Friend to refer to it as a Departmental Committee? Has it been settled that the Committee is to be a Departmental Committee?
Mr. FISHER: Yes, it has been settled that it is to be a Departmental Committee, and I hope that the names of the Committee will be announced very shortly. We have not yet received all the acceptances.
Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: How long is the inquiry likely to last?
Mr. FISHER: It is very difficult to say. It is a very complicated inquiry and, in my judgment, an inquiry which bears a very distinct relation to another inquiry—that is the inquiry into the percentage grants. I now come to an objection to which very wide and vocal expression has been given. It is urged in many quarters that this is a proposal for a cut upon teachers' salaries and that a cut upon teachers' salaries is a breach of faith. If this were in truth a cut upon salaries, it would be a forced contribution levied from all teachers, whether they were eligible for pensions or not, but this Bill levies no such contribution. Under the provisions of this Measure the contribution will only be levied upon teachers who will become entitled to pension benefits under the Act of 1918. It is not required from supplementary teachers under the Act of 1918, and if any teacher satisfies the Board that he cannot complete the years of recognised or qualifying service necessary to qualify him at the age of 65 years for a superannuation allowance, he shall, as from the date on which he so satisfies the Board, cease to be a person in respect of whom contributions are payable under this Act, and any contributions already paid by him will be returned.
This provision meets an apprehension, and a very legitimate apprehension, which has been very widely felt among teachers, especially in our secondary schools. In our secondary schools there are many

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teachers who cannot put in the 30 years of qualifying service which are requisite to entitle them to pensions, and they very reasonably and pertinently ask whether they are to pay this contribution. The answer is that they are not to pay it, that the contribution will be immediately returned. Further, if any woman teacher leaves the teaching service on marriage and satisfies the Board that she does not intend to be again employed as a teacher, she shall be entitled to a repayment of a sum equal to the aggregate amount of her contributions; and if, at the end of his time of active service, a teacher finds that, whether by accident or by the exercise of his discretion to interrupt his service, he is not qualified for a pension, he also will receive back the aggregate amount of his contributions.
This Bill, then, in a most literal and exact sense of the term, is a Bill for a contribution in respect of pensions. It is not, as the House will see, a long Bill. It contains five Clauses only and does not attempt to deal with the many intricate questions which a scheme of superannuation allowances naturally raises. These are left for inquiry. We do not attempt to settle them in this Bill; we merely lay down here that, pending further consideration, a 5 per cent. contribution should be levied, and we propose to leave to the Board of Education, with the consent of the Treasury, the power of making rules prescribing the manner in which contributions under this scheme are to be collected. We also provide that if any teacher who, before he became subject to the principal Act, was in any other pension scheme proves to the satisfaction of the Board, acting on the advice of the Government actuary, that he is in a worse position by reason of our proposals in this Bill than that in which he would have been under the superannuation scheme previously in force, the Board should award him such compensation as, in their opinion, should be sufficient to compensate him for the difference in his position. I think we may fairly ask both the public and the teachers to take a broad view of the situation. In the last three years the economic position of the country, as everyone knows, has sensibly deteriorated. There have been a great falling off in our foreign trade, a great loss of wealth due to industrial disturbances, and a shrinking of revenue. It is quite true that my right hon. Friend
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the Chancellor of the Exchequer has this year been able to promise a slight and refreshing alleviation of the burden of taxation, but the forecasts for next year are not particularly roseate, though it is possible that they may be less dark than some Members anticipate. In these circumstances, is it too much to ask of the teachers who have so largely profited by the Government policy during the last five years to make a contribution in respect of their pensions? I believe that on a long-sighted view it is to their interest to make this contribution, and that if this contribution were not forthcoming—if no contribution were forthcoming from the teachers—prejudice would be excited in many parts of the community, aggravated by the fact that whereas the wages of most people are going down, the salaries of teachers are rising.
So far as I have been able to examine the objections that have been put forward to the Government proposals, they appear to have been based either upon misconceptions as to what the Bill actually contains or upon fears that no Committee will be appointed and that the levy will be permanent and irrevocable, or upon a general apprehension that the teaching profession is being subjected to adverse discrimination. I do not blame the executive of the National Union of Teachers if they view this proposal from a strictly professional standpoint. It is, I take it, their duty to their constituents to watch with initial suspicion any Measure which is likely to inure to the material disadvantage of the profession, but I believe that in the form in which the Bill is now presented it effectually meets some objections, while others are founded upon misconceptions of the Bill's provisions, and that, on broad grounds of equity and public policy, it is amply justified quite apart from the fact that in no other way—and on this point I lay great stress—can an equivalent economy be realised without serious injury to educational interests. I therefore have no hesitation in saying, though I am sure that everybody will realise that I am not lacking in sympathy with the teachers, that I think these proposals are, in all the circumstances, just, while at the same time I should not be honest if I did not say that I move them with regret, partly because I think it unfortunate that a feeling of unsettlement should be created among the teachers, and partly

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because I should have been glad if the revision of the Teachers' Superannuation Act, which I think is necessary, could have been postponed for a little while. Nevertheless, although I move these proposals with regret, I move them with confidence in their justice, and I think that the first question which this House has got to consider is this: Is it, or is it not, desirable or necessary that the economy of £2,300,000 foreshadowed in the Board s Estimates and representing, as it does, the only substantial recommendation made by the Geddes Committee for educational economy which the Government is able to accept, should be realised? If the House is willing to assist the Government to secure that economy, then it will vote for a Second Heading of this Bill, and the question which I put to the teachers and the representatives of the teachers is this: Is it, on the whole, broadly speaking, to the higher interests of education in this country, taking the long view and starting with the consideration, that the teaching body, which has benefited so greatly by the Government policy in the last five years, which has had its average salaries raised by 150 per cent. and its pension benefits trebled—and this in spite of the fact that the country has been going through a period of great strain and stress—should at this moment of great financial urgency and stress oppose a temporary contribution of 5 per cent. in respect of their pensions, pending a full consideration of the Teachers' Superannuation Act? The teachers are a very patriotic body. They served the country finely during the War, and I cannot believe that on mature and serious consideration they will maintain their opposition to these proposals.
Mr. S. WALSH: I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
In rising to move this Amendment, I sincerely regret having to base my indictment of the Government's action upon the point to which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education seems most sensitive, namely, that the action taken by the Government is a breach of faith with this House and with the teaching profession. That is the essence of the indictment which we make from this side. The first point to con-
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sider is not whether the teachers ought, in all the circumstances, to make a contribution; the first point is not whether, in view of their past loyalty and in view of the 150 per cent. increase which they are said to have received upon their salaries, they should not make this comparatively small contribution; the first question and the fundamental question is whether this House is, or is not, in accordance with the policy of the Government, going to commit a breach of faith with the nation itself. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman one question, when ho speaks of the very great increases that have accrued upon the teachers' salaries during the last five years, whether really he was the author of the official letter of the 8th July, 1919—a good deal less than five years ago—when he spoke of the miserable remuneration that the teaching profession had had in the past, and when he stated that it had always been his desire to raise that remuneration to a more satisfactory level, and that he hoped be able to do so in the very near future. First of he will not deny the authorship of the letter. Secondly, he will not deny that in the concluding days of 1919, through his initiative, that particular Committee was formed, with representatives thereon of the local authorities, the teachers and, of course, the Board of Education. When he speaks of the five years, he lays great stress upon the point that during those five years the teachers have been in receipt of a very considerable accession—
Mr. FISHER: I think it is a misstatement to say that I had any representatives on the Burnham Committee. I had no representatives on the Burnham Committee. I made it perfectly clear that the officials of the Board who were there were not to take part in any discussion. They were merely there for purposes of giving information on facts and figures. The Board had complete freedom to consider the scale and the allocation of the scale. That, I think, was understood by the Burnham Committee itself.
Mr. WALSH: I do not want to press that particular point too much, but I do want to direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the whole proceedings of the Burnham Committee received his own approval and the approval of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, that every person occupying office at the Board of Education or the

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Treasury stated that he was in entire agreement with the conclusions of the Burnham Committee, and the right hon. Gentleman himself complimented the Committee upon the success of their labours. Then is it not rather futile to say, "We were not represented as such, although it was upon my initiative, as the result of my invitation as President of the Board of Education, that the Committee was established. It was with my complete knowledge and my approval." It is equally true that on the 25th November, 1919, he complimented the Committee upon the work they had done, and invited them to continue. Surely under those circumstances it is playing with words—it is playing, at least, with facts—to say the Board was not represented. The Board was cognisant of all that was going on. The Board said, "Yes, we will accept those scales," and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "We will accept those scales."
Mr. FISHER: And we do accept them.
Mr. WALSH: Until when? The operation of the scales was in many cases to be until 1925, and, in other cases, until 1924; but in no case were the scales in their operation to be impinged upon in May, 1922.
Mr. HARTSHORN: The miners' case over again.
Mr. WALSH: The Act of 1918 was only the culmination of a great many attempts to deal with the question of teachers' superannuation. For 20 years the whole matter had been under discussion. There had been an Act passed in 1898 on a contributory basis. It caused great irritation. It did not deal at all with the real problems of the poor teacher reaching the end of a period of service and finding himself absolutely stranded. That went on for 14 years, until 1912, and then we tried to tinker with it. Twenty years' tinkering with this subject taught us that the contributory basis was not a successful means of dealing with this problem, and it was the right hon. Gentleman's own Department that had to admit, in 1917: "We cannot go on any longer like this. We really must deal with it in such a way as to prevent the terrible waste of teachers in the profession—the alarming shortage of teachers. The schools are being sadly under-
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staffed. We must do something to make the profession a little more attractive." It was on these grounds, the right hon. Gentleman admits, that the non-contributory basis of the Act of 1918 came into operation. He was the very first Minister to recognise in any broad sense how miserably underpaid the teachers had been, and how sadly understaffed the schools were, because the profession was not made in any sense attractive. It was the right hon. Gentleman who drew attention to the very low remuneration, not five years ago, but in July, 1919. I do not hold a brief for the teachers, but I do hold a brief, and I hope I shall ever hold a brief, for the honour of this House. Whether it be the highest in the land with whom we have entered into contractual obligations, whether it be civil servants, miners or teachers, I say that the one thing to which this House should give its most careful consideration is that they shall not be guilty of a breach of faith. Only a few weeks ago I read out the special paragraph in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Education accepted, on behalf of this House, and on behalf of the nation, the conclusions of the Burnham Committee. Those conclusions were to operate, where the local education authorities had accepted a scale, until 1925, and they were, as the right hon. Gentleman himself admits, based upon a non-contributory basis. That is a statement of actual fact, and I say that, on those grounds, this House ought not to give on this occasion a Second Reading to this Bill.
The President of the Board of Education admits that the whole question of superannuation for teachers is seriously complicated. It is. You have the young people entering the profession at 18, 19 or 20 years of age, and you have at the same time, in the same profession, people of between 50, 60 and 65. You have a thousand and one different conditions. You have the person who is unable to continue because of a breakdown of health. A thousand and one things come into the matter, and, surely, under those circumstances, it is right to ask the right hon. Gentleman why cannot he postpone the Second Reading of this Bill until the Committee that he himself is about to set up has reported upon all the conditions. I have always tried—I hope I am

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not using any undue flattery to myself—to see what is the fair course to pursue. It is true that the nation needs the money, but is the nation, after all, in such a state that the million, or, if you like, couple of millions, derived from the teachers' salaries necessary to prevent financial collapse? The right hon. Gentleman based himself, to some degree, on the recommendations of the Geddes Committee. They recommended, really, that a total of £18,000,000 should be saved. They said:
"The Estimates for the Board of Education should be reduced from £50,600,000 to £34,500,000, a reduction of £16,100,000 which, with the automatic reductions in Scotland, will yield 18,000,000."
I could quite understand if, with a nation really in financial need, the Minister had taken his courage in both hands and said, "Instead of tinkering with the problem, I will act boldly. The nation is in great financial stress. We have the Report of three very eminent men on which to found ourselves, and we shall save during the ensuing year £18,000,000." I could have understood that. It would have been courageous; it would have been more logical. But no, the teachers are to make a contribution, and the term "contribution" has a very pleasant sound. I should call it a deduction from wages. The contributions of the faithful are thankfully accepted. Yes, but the faithful can please themselves. Theirs is a voluntary act of good will—a thank-offering, showing that they desire to help the cause for which that offertory stands. But a contribution from wages, by way of forced deduction, is simply juggling with words. You first of all take the money from the person whom you have not consulted, whose good will has never been obtained, whose consent has never been asked—you take it from him, in defiance of all the obligations that have gone before, and then you term it a contribution, and not until later, when you have set up your inquiry, when the facts are fully elicited, and you find it is not at all fair to make the deduction, is the contribution to be returned. I detest this playing with words. It is a deduction, and not a contribution, and I think it would be a very good thing if we could eliminate some of the legal jargon in Bills presented to this House, as well as in speeches delivered by right hon. Gentlemen. It
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is not a contribution at all, and no person knows it better than the right hon. Gentleman himself. You do not ask the people to pay, but you simply say, "We will pass an Act of Parliament, and you must pay. Later, if we find you ought not to pay, we will return you the money when all the facts are known."
Mr. MACQUISTEN: Like a trade union levy!
5.0 P.M.
Mr. WALSH: I know a great deal more about that than does the hon. and learned Member, but I do not propose to be drawn by that observation. There is no hon. Member in this House who knows better than he the essential difference between a deduction from wages or salary about which you are not consulted and a contribution about which you are consulted. Judging from what the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education stated, it does seem to me a work of supererogation to ask him, if the House gives him the Second Reading, not to carry the Bill through its further stages until the Committee has reported. There is no one who recognises more sympathetically, I trust, than I myself the great services that the right hon. Gentleman has rendered to education. I say that without wishing it to be in the slightest degree a platitude. I know how he stands with the teaching profession. There are few in that profession, men or women, with whom I have come in contact, but who speak of him in the highest terms. Because of that it is to me one of the greatest possible surprises that he should act in this way. If he gets the Second Reading, that will go very far to establish the principle for which he is contending, and I would suggest that the Bill should not be carried any further while the Committee set up is going fully into the whole matter. That Committee will give the teachers of the land an assurance that they are being treated in the way that the meanest subject of His. Majesty has a right to look forward to, namely, that they shall have their case properly heard, that they themselves shall be able to put forward a case, and that the Committee will go fully into the case that they have presented. Is it too much to ask that the Bill shall not be pressed through its further stages until that Committee has reported? Is it not

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fair to ask what principle is at stake by some delay? The most serious issue of all, as I believe, and as I am convinced the teachers believe, is that there is about to take place a great breach of faith with the teachers.
Breaches of faith have taken place very often in the past, and many of us have regretted it in our inmost hearts—I have regretted it—that faith in Parliament, that ought to be an invaluable commodity in the life of this nation, has been treated by many as a thing of little worth. I will not detail cases, but I am as sure as I am of my own existence that the record in black and white of what has taken place since 1919, by the establishment of the Burnham Committee and conclusions arrived at—and accepted—go to prove that if this policy is proceeded with, a flagrant breach of faith with the teaching profession will have been committed. Not only that, but in the teaching profession it is bringing the honour and good name of Parliament into contempt, and few people are likely in the future to pay the same attention to the honour of this House as they have done in the past. After all the honour of Parliament has stood high: the sanctity of contract has been, on the whole, well-maintained. This is a contract with workpeople, a contract on the Burnham scale entered into—
Mr. FISHER: The hon. Gentleman seems to be unaware that the Government has honoured the Burnham scale—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—by a grant upon the Burnham salaries.
Mr. WALSH: With every desire to be fair, I would not have thought that casuistry could go so far. Let me put it this way: I am in the employ of the local education authority, which says to me, as a consequence of the conditions of employment which has been agreed to by the Government, you shall have your scale of salary higher, also your service shall be pensionable, after a particular term of years, on a noncontributory basis. That condition of employment has been sanctioned by the Government itself. There are two concurrent conditions, One is payment for service rendered; the other a pension at the end of a particular term of years, conditional upon a particular record of
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service. That the Government has accepted. Now they have come in on one of the conditions, and say, "Off your wages shall be taken 5 per cent. to satisfy this particular condition." Is not that a breach of contract? If not, I do not know the meaning of the English language. I have been engaged for 40 years in negotiating trade union conditions. I have yet. to find an employer who, I think, would be inclined to boggle over such a breach of contract. I do, indeed, remember going into a colliery on one occasion, and a particular manager said to me, "Mr. Walsh, we are going to take off 6d. a ton." I replied, "Indeed." "Yes," he answered. "But surely," I said, "we have a conciliation board, and private reductions are not allowable." "Oh," he said, "this is not a private reduction, it is simply an equalisation of rates." That is what this manager called it—an equalisation of rates, to take 6d. per ton from a particular body of men to bring them down to the same level as another body. I wonder what particular term the right hon. Gentleman would apply? Is it again "a contribution"?
Mr. FISHER: I would ask my hon. Friend one question. If it is a breach of contract for Parliament to revise the conditions of an Act passed in 1918, why does it cease to be a breach of contract for Parliament to revise conditions after the Committee has reported? The Committee cannot sanctify a breach of contract. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman would debar the House from ever revising the terms of an agreement.
Mr. WALSH: Here, again, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that we not only passed an Act of Parliament in 1918, making this a non-contributory basis, but since then the Burnham Committee has arrived at the conclusion that a certain scale of salaries should operate until 1925 on a non-contributory basis. That non-contributory basis of the pension was the basic fact that entered into the discussion. That particular condition cannot be denied: That the scale of salaries were to continue on the noncontributory basis until 1925. If you introduce now a new condition it means that you are breaking contractual obligations entered into at the time.
Mr. FISHER: There has been no contract between the Government and the

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teachers, none whatever. The Government is not the employer of the teachers. The Government does not appoint or dismiss teachers. I have no power over the teachers. The contract is between the local education authority on the one side and the teachers on the other. When the Geddes Committee proposed that a saving of £8,000,000 might be effected by a drastic revision of salaries, or alternatively the dismissal of between. 30,000 and 40,000 teachers, the Government declined to accept either of these proposals. They declined the first because they remembered the local engagements entered into on the faith of an undertaking by the Board of Education, and they declined to accede to the second, which they could have accepted without any breach of contract whatever, because it would have been injurious to the education of the country, and very cruel to the teachers.
Mr. WALSH: It is utterly impossible to comprehend the right hon. Gentleman, for every time he gets up he makes another speech. He does not get up and amplify the point put, or give a clear explanation. As a matter of fact, the non-contributory basis of the pensions scheme was a concurrent factor in a settlement of the Burnham scale of wages. It is not the local education authority which proposes to alter the con-contributory basis of the pension. It is the Government that propose to alter it. It is no good trying to saddle in an indirect way the responsibility for all this on the local education authority. It is the Government themselves, by their own direct initiative, that are proposing to destroy one side of the concurrent conditions into which the teachers have entered. That really is the whole case. Even the right hon. Gentleman himself does not deny that the scales were to operate—having regard to the miserable remuneration of the teachers in the past—for a sufficient period to give the people some recompense, however inadequate, for the small wages they had received during a very long period of the War. As a matter of fact, the vast mass of teachers had received no increase at all up to 1917. I want really to correct the arithmetic of the right hon. Gentleman. July, 1919, to May, 1922, is not quite five years. As a matter of fact it is very little over two years. The right hon. Gentleman does possess accurate information, but it is no
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good to say to the House of Commons, "After five years, during which they have enjoyed the great benefits resulting from Government policy." They have not received great benefits from the Government policy. The right hon. Gentleman has just admitted that up to July, 1919, thousands and tens of thousands of these people had received no benefits whatever. What use is it to appeal to the House of Commons on those lines and say that during five years they have received the great advantages which the Government offered? Is it true? I am not going into the thousand and one small minutæ of the superannuation scheme or the conditions laid down in the Act of 1018, but it is quite clear that any committee will have a very big job to tackle. I myself fail to see either in policy or in honour that the Government should proceed beyond the Second Reading for the time being. In honour, indeed, I do not think they ought to have introduced this Bill. In policy, I do not see where they can lose if, having received a Second Beading, they proceed to appoint their Departmental Committee to inquire fully into the situation. This—and these are my last few words—is a great body of men and women engaged in a very honorable yet arduous profession, who for a long number of years have been known as amongst the most steady, I might almost say the most conservative people in the country—I am not using the term "conservative" in the political sense—for they have always been a steadying force, they are engaged in the most, I will not say anxious calling, but in a great calling, and upon the education they give and upon the efficacy of their work depends to a very large degree the real progress of this nation. They mould the mind of the child, they impart sentiments and ideas which are calculated to do great good in the future, and I say that these people are entitled to honourable recognition by the State and to fair remuneration. Above all things they are entitled, as is every British citizen, to have their contracts honoured.
If we can imbue this great body of public servants—I do not say they are civil servants, but they are public servants carrying on a noble work and engaged in a high profession—with the idea that Parliament is going to treat them fairly, that it is not going to be guilty of a breach of faith, that it is not

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going to be unmindful of the obligations it entered into with them, if we make them perceive that they will have a fair, honest, and open hearing of their case, that they will be allowed to present it as fully as possible, and that full consideration will be given to their presentment of it, then I am sure we shall relieve the teaching profession of a great anxiety. I ask the right hon. Gentleman for an assurance that, after the passing of the Second Reading of this Measure, he will Lot press it through any further stage, until his Departmental Committee has reported. If we get that assurance I am sure it will give satisfaction to the teachers and to this House as well.
Mr. LUNN: I beg formally to Second the rejection of this Bill.
Sir HENRY CRAIK: We all have learned to recognise the forcefulness of the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), and we know that behind that forcefulness there is sincerity. When I attempt to interfere in this discussion I feel I am walking upon ashes under which lies fire. There are many difficulties surrounding me on entering on the Debate. I may remind the hon. Member that I have the good fortune amongst my constituents to have a larger number of school teachers than any other Member of this House. But I am convinced of this, for I know my constituents well enough to be able to say it—that they expect me to act according to my conscience in the votes which I give here, and they would not respect me if I gave obsequious subservience to any proposal which was opposed to my own convictions. For the greater part of a long life my closest associates and friends have been teachers. They have have looked on me, I think, as their friend, and while it may be that in the words I use to-night I may give rise to misunderstanding and perhaps misapprehension on their part, nevertheless, I hope to be able to show clearly the reasons why I am acting as I do now. For many years—and no one spoke more strongly during a period of a quarter of a century on that topic that I did—it was a disgrace to this country that we paid such miserable salaries to the teachers. That was the universal opinion of all men who for a moment thought upon what the real good of the country depended, and
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who realised that we were allowing narrowness of means to eat like a canker into the hearts of those whose duty it was to inspire and encourage the enthusiasm of the youth of this nation. We were proceeding thereby on a course of absolutely blind miserliness which was injurious to ourselves.
The first move to deal with the question was made in my own country—Scotland—perhaps because we were peculiarly advanced, or perhaps, on the other hand, because we were thought a fit body on which to experiment. Unfortunately for myself, I was asked by the Government, and was, indeed, pressed very hard, to take the chairmanship of the first Commission that was appointed. I knew how that would place me, and I repeatedly refused the request until I was absolutely forced to accept by the action of the then Secretary for Scotland, a very disagreeable and hazardous position. I saw the serious difficulty in which the Commission would be placed. It represented different interests. We all saw, and I will ask the teachers now to see, that the only way of reaching a satisfactory settlement on this difficult question was by compromise. I did not hope at first to get a unanimous report. But I relied on the public spirit and determination of my colleagues to make their partisan interests yield to the public good, and that enabled the Commission to reach what I never expected it to reach, a unanimous decision. It was vital that we should do so. If we had not done it, the differences in the Commission would have been reflected outside, hut when its conclusion was unanimous no Government, and, at any rate, not the Government that appointed it, could possibly resist its conclusions. Accordingly, those conclusions were put into force. It was by compromise, by give and take on both sides, and not by insisting, as the hon. Member for Ince has put it, on cutting off the pound of flesh, that that unanimity was arrived at.
Nothing up to that time had been done in England with regard to sweeping away this blot on the nation, this blot of insufficient salaries. But we had done it in Scotland. Then came the right hon. Gentleman with his Bill of 1918. I am not going to revive an old topic. I am going to support him in this Bill, although he knows quite well that I fought him on the Bill of 1918 as hard as I could. I thought

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it embodied a thoroughly mistaken and wrong policy from beginning to end. It lowered the profession of the teachers by changing them essentially into a body of controlled civil servants. It was lowering to a great profession to take upon yourselves as a Central Department the pensioning of teachers whom you did not appoint, whom you had no power of promoting or dismissing, whose salaries you did not fix, and whose work you did not prescribe. It was absurd to bind yourselves to pay a certain proportion out of the Treasury to the pensions of teachers whose salaries you did not fix, and whom you could neither appoint nor dismiss.
Mr. FISHER: But the Board of Education only pays on approved salary expenditure and in a number of cases has refused approval.
Sir H. CRAIK: I think that one of the policies which the right hon. Gentleman pursued to far too great an extent was the attempt to approve by a Central Department of what was done by local authorities. It would. have been far better to leave these local authorities free to make their own bargain. It would have been better for the teachers, for the school and for the local authority. The right hon. Gentleman has shown a mania for spreading the hand of bureaucratic authority over the local authorities, and of interfering with the contracts they make with their own teachers. I say the Board of Education has no such responsibility for the teachers as to make it right for it to take upon itself as a Central Department the whole burden of superannuation. It converted thereby a great profession into servants of the State. I am perfectly certain that if hon. Members will consult their own constituents they will find ample confirmation of what I say. The new arrangement puts into a very much lower and disadvantageous position an enormous number of the teachers who were employed otherwise than in State and rate-supported schools. It lowered the position and impoverished many teachers in endowed schools and in the great educational institutions supported by such companies as the great Livery Companies in London and by the great Merchants Company in Edinburgh.
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When the right hon. Gentleman brought forward his Bill in 1918 I had scores of protests from teachers in relation to it. It was not liked in Scotland, and I do not think I am betraying any confidence when I say the right hon. Gentleman failed to carry with him the sympathy of the Scottish Education Department which opposed it as contrary to the best interests of the schools and of teachers alike. Still, that Bill was passed. Then came the revision of salaries as an afterthought to the lavish, uneconomical and ruinous superannuation scheme, and you took up what we had done two years before in Scotland, the revision of salaries on the Burnham scales. I think that in this you went too far. We know that these salaries represented an increase in many cases of 150 per cent. and in other cases of nearly 200 per cent. on former salaries. Is it too much to ask the teachers, when a scheme of this sort was adopted, a noncontributory superannuation scheme, which fundamentally, in my opinion, and I am certain in the opinion of members of the teaching profession, has undermined their position, when they have got a superannuation scheme which has enormous advantages, altogether apart from the non-contributory basis, and which has for the first time brought in the State Exchequer as a source of the pensions —is it too much to lay down that after an enormous increase of salaries they should make that contribution which every citizen is now called upon to make. to meet the impoverished state of the country? If we are to have economy at all, we cannot allow people to say, "We will have it when it comes from other people's pockets, but not when it comes from our own." We have economised in the case of the Navy, the Army, and Agriculture and the Schools, and we must all join hands in doing something to meet the stupendous difficulties of the country, for without these efforts, economy cannot be achieved.
Suppose this contribution is made: what you are asking for now is a contribution that will to a small extent meet the cost of the superannuation scheme which you are establishing. Do hon. Members know that it is a rather exaggerated estimate to say that the contribution asked for, if you put it as high as you possibly can, will only bring in about 25 per cent, of the

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cost of establishing the superannuation scheme. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Walsh) has quite rightly put his finger on the difficult spot. It is perhaps too severe to use the words breach of faith, breach of contract, or breach of bargain, but I admit the position is very difficult when a certain financial arrangement has been made to go back upon it. You may induce a certain number of people to enter a profession, bile up a certain course of action, and enter into certain contracts, and you cannot then turn round upon them and say you are not going to do what you promised.
I would like to ask how many of the teachers in the teaching profession have joined that profession since the establishment of this scheme? If there are young men who did enter and who now say, "We would never have entered since 1918 if we had known we were to pay 5 per cent. towards our pensions," by all means pay what they require to recoup themselves, and let them go. But what is the ease with the vast number of teachers, and with 98 per cent. of those who belong to the teaching profession now? They never thought until the year 1918 that they were to have any pension from the State at all: they never entered the teaching profession with that idea; and they paid contributions to a very hazardous and miserable scheme of pensions, which they had to be content with. In 1918 a totally new scene was opened to them. The State opened its purse, and I think very foolishly and rashly said: "We shall require no contribution at all from you, and we shall put you in an invidious position, as compared with the teachers in outside schools." I know the teachers in those outside schools felt very bitterly the position in which they were placed.
Therefore, these harsh words about breaking faith only apply when a man with whom you have contracted has been led to do something which is against his interests. Not a single soul, except those few teachers who joined since 1918, have ever done anything in consequence of that bargain which they would not have done without it. I think I can appeal to those old friends of mine on this point. I know that at this moment slight indications have reached me from my own country on this matter, but I have had
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no representations from any of the men who lead the profession, and who would be the first to have communicated with me if they had any objection of that sort. I am convinced that when they consider the whole thing, they will see that the wisest thing to do will be to shake off this rather doubtful and hampering noncontributory scheme, and to raise themselves to a position in which they will be independent and say, "We expect the State to give the lion's share of the pension, but we are very ready to give a certain aid, because we shall obtain our independence, and a little contribution is not a bad thing in order to secure independence." The salaries are not open to revision now, and I should be the last to advise that because it would be a breach of faith and a very serious breach of faith. If a man gets £200 over what he got before he enters into new undertakings anti responsibilities, and if you alter his salary you sometimes put him in a very serious position. That, however, is not the case with a small contribution of five per cent. There is no doubt that within two or three years at the most these salaries will have to be revised.
Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Another breach of faith!
Sir H. CRAIK: It is no breach at all. That is the way you invent and utter charges of breach of faith, but there will be no breach of faith here. It might be wrong or unwise to do this, and I hope it will not be done, but the pledge is only given up to 1925. Therefore, I would ask whether it would not be wise to take this very small, easily borne, and slight contribution to their own pension—
Mr. S. WALSH: Say deduction.
Sir H. CRAIK: Well, I will say deduction from their salaries. Let the teaching profession look at two things: Firstly, its independence and, secondly, it will be a contribution which will shake off what I am convinced is the stigma of being an organised civil servant, by which they lose a great deal of influence and respect in which they are held in the country. Let them gain a greater respect by saying that they will share with their fellow-citizens in bearing some of the heavy burdens which look like crushing this country to the ground.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If in this Debate there be anyone who appears to be more sincere than the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), then it is the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is as sincere as any others in the speech which he has just delivered, but it is a speech really dealing with a former Bill. I should like to make a remark in regard to what the right hon. Gentleman stated in the latter part of his speech. He told us that the pledge had only been given to the teachers up to the year 1925. He also told us that a man getting an extra £200 a year made his arrangements accordingly, and that it would be a breach of faith to alter his salary. Surely, it is equally a breach of faith if you reduce salaries by five per cent.
Sir H. CRAIK: What I said was, that to cut off an enormous increase of 150 per cent. might involve a man in a very serious position, but I do not think that a man will be placed in very great difficulties by having to contribute five per cent.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That seems to me to mean that a big cut is a breach of faith, but a little cut is not, or, at any rate, it is only a little breach of faith. I cannot understand the position which has been taken up in regard to this question by the President of the Board of Education. I do not know whether anyone has referred to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made when the Bill of 1018 was brought in, because then he told all the teachers of the country that they were going to have non-contributory pensions. I am not a teachers' man, neither for nor against, but I am trying to find out what is the right thing to do. The Government bring in a Bill and, at any rate, one of its chickens has come home to roost. In 1918 they brought in a slap-dash Measure for giving noncontributory pensions, and the speech which the President of the Board of Education then made was addressed to the whole teaching profession, and he made the bold statement that they were going to have non-contributory pensions, because they were right and desirable. If anyone will read the speech of the President of the Board of Education, they will see that he answered the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Craik), and bowled him over. The
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President of the Board of Education made a long speech setting out one after the other all the objections raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and bowling them all over, and anyone who reads that speech will find that the teachers were told from the Treasury Bench that a contributory scheme was not desirable; that there were many objections to it; and that the Government intended to bring in a non-contributory scheme. It may be said that that was not a bargain. I agree. I agree that it was, if you like, a most improvident act on the part of the Government. I quite agree that it was giving the teachers a great deal more than they were entitled to, and a great deal more, perhaps, than would have satisfied them. But the Government did it.
Sir H. CRAIK: It was more than they asked for.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I quite agree, but the Government did it. What is the question that I have to consider, as a Member of the House of Commons who did not, at all events, vote against that Bill? It was passed almost unanimously through the House.
Colonel BOWLES: Shame!
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. and gallant Member says "Shame!" Why did he not oppose it?
Colonel BOWLES: I was not then a Member of the House.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It was passed with a flourish of trumpets, as a gracious act to the teachers. How are we to go back upon it? It may not have been a contract, but it was what we lawyers call a holding out of an offer to the teachers, and not only to those new ones who came in after 1918, but to those who were in and who might have gone out and accepted some other position—who might have become university teachers, if you like—or who might have gone into business or into some other profession. They remained in because the Government had said to them, "You are going to have a non-contributory pension scheme; all the contributory schemes have so many objections that we are not going to carry them out." I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities spoke of a few hundred men having come in,

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but I believe 18,000 teachers, men and women, have come in since 1918, and my right hon. Friend will agree, at all events, that those teachers have a bargain. They came in on the basis of the Act of 1918, and it is idle to tell them to get out and go into another profession or go into business—to turn out 18,000 people because the Government has changed its mind as to the value of non-contributory pensions. You cannot ask the teachers to go out in that manner, and you cannot ask the House of Commons to turn out 18,000 new people who have come into the teaching profession on the faith of this Act of 1918. The only other point on which I have been trying to find out how I ought to vote is in regard to the negotiations leading up to the Burnham scale. The President of the Board of Education says that the Government were not paying the salaries. I quite agree, but Lord Burnham's inquiry was a public inquiry, and I am not sure that the Government did not ask Lord Burnham to preside over the discussions and negotiations. It was an official inquiry, or, at all events, the negotiations were official. I am not justifying the increases. I am not a teachers' man in that respect. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities that in 1925 the teachers' salaries will most likely be reduced in accordance with the fall in the cost of living.
Sir H. CRAIK: I hope the hon. Baronet will not represent me. I expressly said that I hoped they would not be, and I should be very sorry to say now that they should be.
Sir W. JOYSON-HICKS: At all events, my right hon. Friend admitted that they would be open to revision, and it would be no breach of faith or breach of contract of any kind if they were revised in a downward direction. I think that those who represent the teachers in this House must be prepared to admit that if, owing to the fall in the cost of living or to other causes, it is desirable to reduce them, those salaries are perfectly open to revision in 1925. The question then arises whether, at the time of the Burnham negotiations, it was present in the minds of those who were negotiating on the one side and on the other that the whole thing was subject to the Act of 1918—that the proposals for the revised salaries were to
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be revised, and to enure until 1925 on the basis of the Act of 1918. In order to get to the fountain-head on the matter, some friends of mine in the House and myself thought that it would not be a bad plan to ask Lord Burnham himself. We were in grave difficulties. On the one side, the teachers said there was a definite understanding in the negotiations, while on the other we were told that there was nothing of the kind; so I took my courage in both hands, and wrote to Lord Burnham, and he has written me a letter which he gives me permission to make public. I think it more or less exposes the position. It is as follows:
"28th April, 1922.
My DEAR JOYNSON-HICK:—1 am mast willing to do anything I can to help you and my Parliamentary colleagues to arrive at a decision in regard to the matter of educational salaries. Curiously enough, the same question was put to me by Sir James Yoxall, the General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers, on their behalf, and I think the best thing I can do is to enclose you a copy of my reply to him."
I will not read that reply, because it is rather long, but Lord Burnham goes on to say:
"There is nothing on the face of the negotiations, either expressed or implied, to show that the non-contributory scheme of pensions determined the scales of salaries recommended by the three Committees on elementary, secondary and technical schools. On the other hand"—
and I would call the special attention of the House to this—
"it was common knowledge in the minds of both panels that the scheme had been sanctioned by Parliament and was in existence. If in politics it is the circumstances which determine whether a Measure is good or bad, according to Burke, we must assume that. the special circumstances of the Pensions Act did have some bearing on the settlement which was made. How much, neither I nor ally of the members of the Committee can possibly tell you. This is all I can say. Of course you are quite free to make what use you like of it.—Yours very truly,—
That is a perfectly fair letter from the gentleman who presided over these negotiations. He does not say that the whole question was definitely determined, but that, in the minds of the contracting parties, everyone knew that there was a non-contributory pensions scheme enacted by Parliament in 1918, and I cannot see how any Member of this House can go behind that, at all events till 1925, when the Burnham scheme comes to be revised.

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In 1925 it will be quite open to negotiation, and the Government can say to the teachers, "If you continue at the present high rate of salaries you must have, as part of the bargain regarding salaries, a contributory scheme of pensions." That would be quite possible, and there would be no breach of faith, or even of understanding. I do not like the term "breach of faith" or "breach of contract," but I want to put it to the House that here is a great profession—one of the greatest in the country, and of which I could not speak more highly than the President of the Board of Education did when he brought in the scheme in 1918—which believes, at all events, that this scheme is binding on the Government, and also that the Burnham scheme is binding until 1925. Although I am just as keenly in favour of economy as anyone on the Government Bench can be, even the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, I suggest that this is an attempt to get something out of the Geddes scheme regarding economy. The Government cannot cut down this, that or the other in education, but they think it is possible to get this £2,000,000 out of the teachers by making a contributory pension scheme. The question is not whether there is a contract; it is not whether there is a breach of faith; it is whether we, as the House of Commons, are to act with the utmost possible honour towards this great profession. If our honour is involved, as I think it is, let the £2,000,000 go. If there is any misunderstanding with the teachers, let it go for this year. The President of the Board of Education admits that he has appointed a Committee which will consider the whole matter. He said, in an interruption during the speech of the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), "Can a Committee sanction a breach of faith?" I agree that no Committee can sanction a breach of faith, but the Committee could report that they had considered the whole question, and in 1925 this scheme could be grafted on the question of salaries; but, until that date, I submit to the House that we are the custodians on behalf of the people of this country, who depend upon us to see that the fullest justice and honour is done. We passed that Bill through all its stages, and they believe that we should not, by doing this, be acting up to our very high standard of honour towards those who, although not
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technically servants of the House of Commons, are servants of the public in a great profession, as the teachers are.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. MARRIOTT: I agree with the hon. Baronet the Member for Twiekenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) to this extent, that I think the House as a whole has very grave cause for complaint against His Majesty's Government for their lack of providence in the treatment of the whole of this question. By their improvidence they have placed this House in a position which, as I think everyone will agree, is both perplexing and to some extent humiliating. At any rate, I myself feel perplexed, and I am quite ready, with the rest of the House, to admit that we are humiliated. I am frankly perplexed by the position in which I find myself. On the one hand, as is known to many hon. Members of this House, I have always attempted to be a consistent advocate of the curtailment of Government expenditure. That is the position also of the boa. Baronet, and it is, I think, the position of most of the parties in this House. We do desire to. see a real cutting down of Governmental expenditure, but we are met by the Government. with the taunt, and it is a perfectly fair taunt on their part, that we are always in favour of economy as long as it is in the abstract and in the general, but that we always vote against it when it comes to economy in the particular. That is a taunt which has frequently been levelled at some of us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I can assure him that it has gone home. But, on the other hand, I do not think that anyone could have listened to the two speeches with which this Debate was opened, without a feeling of great uneasiness as to the issue now before the House, and as to what the hon. Baronet the Member for Twickenham refused, and very properly refused, to call a breach of contract, although he did venture to employ the term "breach of faith." I am perfectly satisfied, from the speech of the President of the Board of Education, that there is no substance whatever in the accusation that this can be regarded as a breach of contract. On that point I am perfectly satisfied by the speech of my right hon. Friend. But what the House is far more concerned with than the question of whether there was or was not a technical breach of contract is whether there was or was not a

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moral breach of faith. That is the real question which is troubling the conscience of the House. Surely no one who has listened to the speech of the hon. Baronet opposite, or has taken the trouble to investigate the facts for himself, can remain in any doubt that, although there was no legal connection between the scale fixed by the Burnham Committee and the drafting of this non-contributory pension scheme, yet there was a psychological connection between them. It seems to me quite futile, from every point of view, to deny that there was in the mind of those who were negotiating, on the one side and on the other, the knowledge of the fact that the Act of 1918 was on the Statute Book. I say nothing as to the wisdom of that. I think this scheme ought to have been contributory from the first. I think the Government showed a lack of firmness and wisdom in not proposing to the House at that time a contributory scheme. Still, it is only fair to remind the House that if the Government had suggested a contributory scheme in 1918, it is exceedingly doubtful whether it would have been accepted by the House or by the teachers. At any rate, I think there is some doubt on the question. Hon. Members must also remember that if the Government had proposed a contributory scheme in 1918 they would immediately have been met by the very fair retort that they were pro posing a contributory scheme to a profession which at that time was admittedly almost the worst paid profession in the world. They would have been proposing a contributory scheme at the time the teachers were, by general admission. grossly and scandalously underpaid. Undoubtedly it would have been very difficult in 1918 to propose a contributory scheme.
I now want to turn to a question which has been raised in many communications which hon. Members have probably received from outside, whether the Superannuation Act of 1918 placed the teachers, as many of these communications affirm it did, in the same position as civil servants and whether it was intended that they should he put in that position. As to the intention of an Act of Parliament there is always room for very great difference of opinion and I have nothing to say about the intention, but as a fact the Act of 1918 did not place the teaching profession in the position of civil servants.
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The teachers are not the servants of the State. They are the servants of the local education authorities. It is true that the State has become, under this mischievous system of proportional grants, which has been so rightly condemned, as I think, by the Geddes Committee, under the system of percentage grants, the State is virtually, though very indirectly, responsible for the scale of the teachers' salaries. But now the State, not being the employers of these teachers, being only indirectly and non-legally responsible for their salaries, has assumed a function which is inconsistent with the existing status of the teachers. It has assumed the function of the payment of their pensions. But the State does not appoint the teachers. It cannot dismiss them and it is not directly responsible for their remuneration.
I do not think any hon. Member will question two points which I am going to put. The first is that the scale of increase granted by the Burnham Committee was larger than any increase which was granted to any portion of the Civil Service, and that at the time it was an improvident increase of salary. No one deplores more deeply than I myself do the miserable pay of the teacher before 1918. No one could have deplored more than I did the policy of underpaying the teachers. But the Burnham Committee legislated in a panic, and it granted to the teachers remuneration which was to be of a permanent character. Here again the teachers are differentiated, of course, from members of the Civil Service. Members of the Civil Service have received in a number of cases some permanent increase of salary, but far the larger proportion of the increase they have received has been by way of cost of living bonus. The Burnham Committee ought to have followed the same precedent. They have made a very great mistake in granting a permanent increase and not basing the increase on the cost of living bonus. To-day Civil Service salaries are falling in all directions with considerable rapidity. The wages of railway servants and the remuneration of the employes of local authorities are falling with great rapidity. On all sides you have this fall except on the side of the teachers. They are, at any rate, secure till 1923 or 1925.
I hesitate to refer to it, but of course it is at the back of the mind of half of us

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that we are in one of the last Sessions of the existing Parliament and most hon. Members will presently have to ask for a renewal of confidence from their constituents. I resent very much indeed any outside pressure at a moment like this, and I say quite frankly and sincerely that if one had considered this Bill simply on its merits I for one should have found it exceedingly difficult to vote for it. Then comes all this outside pressure and compels one in conscience to ask whether one's decision on that point was really uninfluenced by other considerations. If these highly organised associations and unions only knew it they would realise that there are many Members of the House with a public conscience and that the effect of this sort, of electoral pressure is precisely the opposite of what they themselves intended.
Mr. T. SHAW: A vote against conscience.
Mr. MARRIOTT: I do not think that is a fair observation, but I will let it pass. I agree with the Minister of Education to this extent. I think that he was right and that he was wise to make an appeal to the teachers at this juncture instead of having a sacrifice imposed upon them, to make a sacrifice themselves. He appealed to them on broad grounds of equity. He appealed to them in view of the fact, which we and they cannot ignore, that their salary scale will be revised in London next year, and in other parts of the country in 1925. He appealed to them on the grounds of a broad educational policy. In all these appeals I most heartily concur. I have made them myself here and in other places. Over and over again the Minister of Education referred to his proposals as being temporary proposals. I assume he meant precisely what he said. The Bill itself says, "As from the 1st day of April, 1922, until Parliament otherwise determines," so and so must be done. I am going to suggest that those words should be eliminated and that words should be substituted which would place a strict time limit on the operation of the Bill. Why not place a limit of two years, and instead of saying "until Parliament otherwise determines,"says"until 1st April, 1924"? I admit that by doing that you would not get. over the hon. Baronet's objection to the deflection from the strict moral line.
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I am proposing a compromise. [Interruption.] The Noble Lord thinks it is a bad compromise, but he thinks all compromise is bad.
Lord R. CECIL: No, I do not.
Mr. MARRIOTT: Unless he proposes it himself, of course. It is a compromise with conscience if he likes, but it is a compromise which would do two things. In the first place, it would give very considerable reassurance to the teachers, who at present are gravely concerned, not so much in regard to the present as to the future. It is obvious that Ft, would give ample time for the Departmental Committee to report. I do not suggest that it removes moral scruples, but it contains a very large measure of reassurance to the teachers, and it would give the House an opportunity of having the advantage of the Report of the Committee to which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to refer the question. In all sincerity, and feeling the strength of both positions on the subject. I commend that suggestion to the House and to the Government.
Mr. FISHER: As I have already explained to the House, it has been the intention of the Government from the first that these contributions should be levied only pending the inquiry into the whole subject of superannuation by the Departmental Committee. I am quite ready to fall in with the suggestion of my hon. Friend, if it commends itself to the House, and to insert words limiting the period during which the contribution can be raised to a period of two years
Lord R. CECIL: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned"
I have listened to the whole of this Debate, and the conclusion I have arrived at is that the whole question solely depends upon this. Was there or was there not something in the nature of a moral obligation to the teachers to continue this non-contributory scheme? I cannot conceive that the compromise suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott), obviously in-concert with the Government—
Mr. MARRIOTT: No
Lord R. CECIL: At any rate, accepted with suspicious rapidity by the Government.
Mr. MARRIOTT: I may say at once that it was not suggested to me by the Government.
Lord R. CECIL: I did not say it was suggested by the Government. I said it was proposed in concert with the Government. Does the hon. Member deny that?
Mr. MARRIOTT: Yes. It was proposed entirely on my own responsibility.
Lord R. CECIL: It does not very much matter.
Mr. MARRIOTT: Yes, I think it does.
Lord R. CECIL: I do not know that it is very disreputable for a follower of the Government to do something in concert with the Government. I assure my hon. Friend that I do not mean to make any personal attack. I thought it was a matter which had been proposed in concert with the Government, but if not, I accept my hon. Friend's statement without the slightest qualification, and I withdraw the suggestion that he has acted in concert with the Government. However it arose, it does not appear to me to meet the real strength of the case against the Government proposal. The strength of the case against the Government's proposal is not that it is essentially unjust or improper that a contributory scheme should be imposed upon the teachers. It may be a good plan or it may be a bad plan to have a contributory scheme. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) urged very strongly during the Debate on the Bill of 1918 that it should be a contributory scheme, but that suggestion was rejected by the President of the Board of Education. The point is not whether it is right that there should be a contributory scheme, or whether it is right that there should be a non-contributory scheme. It is not even the question of whether it, is reasonable to ask the teachers to make a contribution of 5 per cent. to meet the financial difficulties of the country. The whole question, the sole question, is this: Have the proceedings of Parliament and have the proceedings outside Parliament with regard to this matter been such as to make it contrary to the best of good faith, I will not put it higher than that, that we should now impose, against the will of the teachers, this contribution? To say that we will do it for two years and no more does not
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meet the point at all. If it is wrong to do it, if it is against the good faith that Parliament ought to show in these matters, it is just as wrong to do it for two years as for a longer period.
Mr. FISHER Mr. FISHER indicated assent.
Lord R. CECIL: My right hon. Friend agrees with that point of view. The two grounds on which the case for the teachers is put are the Act of 1918 and the speech which the President of the Board of Education made in urging the House to accept that Act, and the proceedings at the time the Burnham scale was adopted. I do not attach so much importance to the Act of 1918 or to what my right hon. Friend said. That only helps the teachers' case, but it is not quite sufficient to establish it. It goes near to holding out a set of advantages to the teachers to induce men and women outside the profession to come into it, but I am not sure that it goes quite the full length. Let me read the passage which seems to me most germane to that point. This was at the end of the speech of my right hon. Friend on the Second Reading of the Act of 1918:
"The Bill will achieve three objects. It will promote the unity of the teaching profession. It will improve the quality of instruction given in the schools, and it will secure"—
This seems to me to be the material passage—
"all the great educational developments which are bound to ensue under the operations of the Education Act `o an army of men and women teachers who will be attracted to that calling not only by the addition-al material benefit which the Bill will give them, but still more by the sense that for the first time the State is giving adequate recognition to the teaching profession."
I think that does go rather near to an invitation to men and women outside the teaching profession to enter the profession on the faith of the Bill which my right hon. Friend was recommending to Parliament. Now I come to the second point. What happened at the time of the discussion of the Burnham scale? In regard to that, I only know what certain of my constituents have told me, and what I have heard in this House. I was not present at that Committee. As I understand it, what happened was this: there was a great discussion about that scale, and certain members of the teaching profession did not think it was adequate, and did not wish to accept it. The representatives

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of the teachers were arguing the case before the Burnham Committee, and I am toll that at a certain stage in the dismission a meeting of teachers was called, and that the representatives of the teachers on the Burnham Committee went to that meeting and urged the acceptance of the Burnham scale, and one of the arguments which was definitely and plainly put forward was that the teachers must recollect that they had a non-contributory pension, in considering the inadequacy of the Burnham scale. I am told that that argument was put forward quite distinctly.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Sir R. Horne): The hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. JoynsonHicks) referred to a letter from Lord Burnham, part of which he read. On looking at the whole letter I find that reference has been made to the shorthand writer who says that nothing in his notes contains any reference to the non-contributory pension scheme.
Lord R. CECIL: My right hon. Friend has not quite appreciated what I said.
Sir R. HORNE: If the Noble Lord is right in the reference to which he has drawn attention, then undoubtedly that reference to the non-contributory pension would have got into the shorthand notes.
Lord R. CECIL: The right hon. Gentleman does not quite understand what I was trying to say. No doubt it was due to the obscurity with which I spoke. What I say is that a meeting of teachers was called to consider whether they would or would not accept the Burnham scale, that at that meeting the three representatives of the teachers—I think there were three on the Burnham Committee—represented to the teachers at that meeting that in deciding whether or not they would accept the Burnham scale, they must consider the fact that they had a non-contributory scheme of pension. That shows two things. It shows that the body of teachers accepted the Burnham scale on the faith of these non-contributory pensions, and it shows, which is even more important, that in the minds of those who were negotiating on behalf of the teachers, the existence of this noncontributory pension scheme was an important consideration when they accepted the Burnham scale.
Mr. RONALD McNEILL: I understood from the President of the Board of Edu-
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cation that the acceptance or non-acceptance by the teachers was really irrelevant. The question was whether the Government would continue it or not.
Lord R. CECIL: I do not think that is quite so. We have to consider whether we shall be acting fairly and from the point of view of the best employers towards the teachers in this matter if we go back on what they understood they were to have when they accepted the Burnham scale. If they had not accepted it, the negotiations would have broken down. We cannot go into that, because it is a matter of speculation. The question is. what did they reasonably understand were the terms that were being offered to them when they accepted the Burnham scale? If the hon. and learned Member had been dealing with one of his own employes, the question which he would ask himself would be this: "When I offered him these terms, and when he accepted them, did he or did he not understand that they contained certain conditions?" If he understood that, and understood it reasonably, I am quite sure that my hon. and learned Friend, in dealing in his private capacity, would never go hack on that understanding. The House of Commons ought not to go back on that understanding, if that really was the understanding reasonably arrived at by the teachers when they accepted the Burnham scale.
Sir R. HORNE: Does that obligation last for all time? The scale does not end until 1925.
Lord R. CECIL: It may be a matter of bargain as to what salary you are going to give after 1925.
Sir R. HORNE: According to the Noble Lord, I suppose we must continue for ever this non-contributory scheme.
Lord R. CECIL: If you decide that you must continue it for ever, you will make a proportionate reduction in the salaries. In 1925 the whole matter will be open for discussion. I do not think my right hon. Friend's intervention is worthy of him in this matter. We are really anxious to find out what we ought to do as good employers. We are not anxious to quarrel across the Floor of the House. This is a case which seems to me in the highest degree difficult for those of us who are convinced that all reasonable economies ought to be made, and who are also convinced that no economy is

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worth while if it involves a charge of breach of faith against the House of Commons. I am sorry that I am not able to accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, but, as I think this is a matter which ought to be investigated, I am going to make a suggestion. We ought to know whether a breach of faith has been committed—whether we are asked to do something which is shabby. That ought to be investigated before we part with this Bill. If it turns out that the account which I have given to the House of the negotiations is not fully accurate, and if it turns out that no such understanding really existed, or was understood reasonably, then I think this Bill ought to go on. So far as I am concerned, none of the other arguments against it are sufficient. We ought really to have this point cleared up. The Government are going to appoint a Committee to go into the whole thing. Why should we not ask them to make a preliminary report on this point as to what was the understanding on which the Burnham scale was accepted?
Colonel Sir C. YATE: Was there any question of acceptance of the Burnham scale? Was there any doubt about it?
Lord R. CECIL: Certainly. I am only stating what I am told, but I understand that a Considerable section of the teachers were against an acceptance of it. What I suggest is that we should adjourn this Debate. We should not reject the Bill. We should not put an end to it, but we should adjourn the Debate pending a Report from a Committee. Let us ask it to report first as to how we stand on this question in reference to any understanding with the teachers. That appears to me the really important point. It would enable us to be quite sure in our mind upon the point, and it will prevent any charge of breach of faith. It will also completely satisfy those teachers who have spoken to me on the subject. I should think this proposal would meet with the approval of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) and of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott), because it does not actually kill the Bill. I cannot see why the Government should not gladly accept it, and, in order to test the opinion of the House, I beg to move that the Debate be now adjourned.
Mr. SPEAKER: I may point out that hon. Members must confine themselves to the Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate.
Sir F. BANBURY: I understand that we cannot discuss anything except the proposal to adjourn the Debate. I wanted to make a speech on the Bill as an economist and as an enemy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, because I have always opposed his Bills on the ground of extravagance, and I am now going to vote against him and in favour of the teachers. I understand my Noble Friend wishes to adjourn this Debate in order that the whole question should be submitted to a Committee. I am opposed to that for the reason that in the Bill itself—
Lord R. CECIL: Perhaps the right hon. Baronet did not understand my point. What I feel is that there is a doubt whether we are not being asked to take a course which is a shabby one. If it be a shabby course, I do not think we ought to take it. Under any circumstances, since there is a doubt, and I understand the Minister for Education does not agree with the facts as I have stated them—that doubt ought to be cleared up, and I ask for the adjournment of the Debate, not in order that the Committee may deal with the whole question of superannuation, but in order that it may investigate the point whether or not the course we are asked to take is a shabby course.
Sir F. BANBURY: I quite understand my Noble Friend. He thinks there is a doubt. and therefore instead of reading the School Teachers Superannuation Act, 1918, Chapter 55, in order to settle the point he wants to put the responsibility upon a Committee. I do not believe in appointing committees and putting responsibility upon them. I may have too great an opinion of myself, but I certainly feel that I am quite as competent as any committee to decide whether or not there is a breach of an Act of Parliament. I do not think the Burnham Committee had anything whatever to do with this matter. The only question is as to what took place under the School Teachers Superannuation Act, 1918. I say it is plain that the teachers who were then in the employment of the State, or who entered into the employ of the State, were to receive certain things which were laid down by this Act. If the Burnham

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Scheme had been talked about, if my right hon. Friend had suggested that it was the basis of his scheme for a pension there might be reason for inquiry. But he did not do anything of the sort and under these circumstances all we have to do is to read the Act in order to see what bargain we made. Personally I think the teachers are too well paid. There are too many of them and we have wasted too much money on education. I have never broken a bargain in my life and I will not be a party to breaking a bargain with the teachers. If instead of adjourning the Debate we continue it and reject the Bill on a Second Reading and say to the Minister of Education "in 1923 you can reduce the London teachers' salaries and you have just got to do it. In 1925 you can reduce the country teachers' salaries and you have got to do it." They would be breaking no faith then. As to pensions, if it is rejected all he will have to do will be to provide that in case of new teachers coming in after the Bill has become law they shall be put on a different scale and there will he no breach of faith with them. I feel very strongly on this matter, and I did not like to vote without expressing my opinion. I believe I was the. only Member who in 1918 asked the right hon. Gentleman what his Bill was going to cost, and he told me it would be about £3,000,000, instead of which I rather fancy it is costing from £60,000,000 to £70,000,000. We cannot afford it. As I say, we feel very strongly on this question of the waste of money on education—
Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER rose—
Sir F. BANBURY: I admit I am a little out of order, but I hope that the House will vote against the adjournment of the Debate and also against the. Second Reading of the Bill. Of course it must maintain its bargain.
Sir D. MACLEAN: The Motion which is before the House is not one on which we can discuss the merits of the Bill. That is clear. But it is one on which we can make an appeal to the Government to see how far they can meet an opinion, I will not call it a. general opinion, but an opinion which is very widely shared in various parts of the House. That is not an unfair way of putting it.. The basis
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of the appeal which is made is that there is a genuine feeling of uneasiness, and that there is a misunderstanding which could be removed by a reference ad hoc to this specially appointed Committee, and which could not be removed by any Debate in this House. That is the ground on which we base our appeal. It is of the greatest importance that we should act on well ascertained facts, and the only way in which we can get at those facts is by such a reference to a Committee which will not require to range over the very complex question of how a new superannuation scheme is going to be devised, but which will be strictly limited in its terms of reference to ascertaining on what condition the present superannuation scheme was granted. I can quite understand the position of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Education. He says he must have his Bill as otherwise he will have to bring in a Supplementary Estimate to carry out the agreed policy of the Government. I can quite understand that without limitation the Committee's inquiry might run into two months or more and might be another method of killing the Bill.
I think my right hon. Friend is fully entitled to take that view, but that is not what hon. Members have in their mind. They want to clear up the charge, which is made, rightly or wrongly, that. there is a doubt in the minds of a very large number of people as to whether the course proposed would not constitute a breach of faith. That, I say, could be cleared up by reference to a Committee, which could report by the end of the Whitsuntide holidays at latest, and indeed might be in a position to report much earlier. The question is whether the superannuation scheme laid down in the Act of Parliament was by agreement to be non-contributory. We want that point cleared up, and then the House will be in a position to continue the discussion of this Measure. I am not now going into the merits of the Bill, but I may say I shall not feel myself able to support the Motion which has been made from these benches for its rejection. I shall not feel justified in rejecting it, but we do want to have it clear whether we are acting as reasonable and honourable men in regard to the teachers, and I am certain we shall be better able to discharge our duty in regard to the Bill if we first get the point I have mentioned cleared up than we

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would be if we were forced to a Division on the Motion of the Second Reading tonight.
Mr. FISHER: I fully appreciate the anxiety which is evidenced in every part of the House to keep faith with the teachers. Obviously it is most important that we should do so. It is also most important there should not be any suspicion thrown upon any Member of this House. I do not in the least resent the observations which have been made, and made in good faith, by hon. Members opposite to and behind me who feel some scruples on this matter. As to the question itself, the difficulties which have presented themselves are of two kinds. My right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London, if he will allow me to call him so—
Sir F. BANBURY: I shall be honoured.
Mr. FISHER: My right hon. Friend feels a difficulty about the Teachers Superannuation Act. As I understand it his view is this: Here is an Act passed by Parliament a few years ago conceding benefits to a particular class of the community, and on the faith of the benefits so conceded it is quite possible that numbers of men were attracted to the teaching profession. The conditions were put before Parliament and are contained within the provisions of the Act and consequently cannot be reviewed. The view is held that it is morally not competent for Parliament to review the provisions of the Superannuation Act, as they apply to existing members of the teaching profession who benefit under the Act. Every member has his own conscience to guide him. I put this consideration to the House: Here is a Measure passed by Parliament which confers benefits, without any countervailing consideration, upon a certain class in the community. Is it not competent at any time for Parliament to review that Act? It is not as if there had been a contributory scheme for teachers' pensions, and Parliament afterwards came forward and said to the contributors, "We are going to alter the scheme to your detriment." In this case no contributions were demanded, and benefits were conferred on the teachers without any consideration. Obviously the case is altogether different. That is the case
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of the right hon. Member for the City of London.
Let me pass to the case of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil). As I understood it, his case is this: A Committee was set up at the instance of the Board of Education under the chairmanship of Lord Burnham. That Committee consisted of chosen representatives of the teachers on the one hand and chosen representatives of the local education authorities on the other hand. That Committee was invited to prepare a national scheme of salaries. It was intimated to the Committee by the Board of Education that the scale of salaries, after it had been agreed to by the Burnham Committee, must have the approval of the Government, and that the allocation of the scale to different areas in the country would likewise have to receive the approval of the Government. The Government did not take part in the deliberations of the Committee, but the Government retained in its hands the right of reviewing the recommendations of the Committee and the right of rejecting them or modifying them as it thought fit. The Committee deliberated. There was a process of hard bargaining going on between representatives of the local authorities on the one hand and representatives of the teachers on the other hand. The Noble Lord tells me that at one stage of this bargaining the representatives of the teachers, finding that the scales of salaries then contemplated were likely to be unsatisfactory to a body of teachers outside, met that body of teachers.
Lord R. CECIL: I do not wish to be misunderstood. I was repeating what other people have told me. I understand that what happened was that there was this body of teachers outside, Representatives were negotiating for that body. There was a certain section of that body opposed to these scales and in order to convince that section the representatives made these observations among others.
Mr. FISHER: That is practically what I understand. Certain representatives of the teachers, who were serving on the Burnham Committee, went outside to a body of teachers outside, and, in order to induce them to accept the Burnham scale, used the argument that, after all, the teachers were very well off, seeing that they had a non-contributory scheme

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of pensions. In that way that particular section of teachers was appeased. I have no knowledge of those facts, but if the Noble Lord tells me he has been informed by the teachers that that was the case, I implicitly accept his assurance that those were the facts. The teachers are unlikely to misstate them. Assume that that is the case. I agree that representatives of the National Union of Teachers on the Burnham Committee had some little difficulty in moderating the excessive zeal of many of the younger members outside, and that they exercised a wise and moderating influence over those younger teachers. Admitting all those facts, what is the essence of the position? You have the teachers' representatives comprising the most statesmanlike members of the profession. They are negotiating with local authorities on the salaries scales. They know that, if they reach an arrangement on the salaries scales with the local authorities, they will have to meet the Board of Education and the Treasury, and that it is quite possible that the salaries scales will be thrown out. If they are thrown out by the Government, the whole fabric of the salaries scales, which are so advantageous to the teachers, will be lost entirely. The leaders of the teachers, knowing this, employ, as they are entitled to do, the argument that they were living under a non-contributory pensions scheme. I can imagine that the question of pensions did not come up for discussion in the Burnham Committee, because that Committee was discussing the quite different question of salaries.
Mr. MORGAN JONES: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that Mr. Leslie, the Secretary of the three Burnham Committees, publicly declared, I think in a speech at Northampton, that this discussion was definitely raised in the Burnham Committee? If the right hon. Gentleman cares for it I will give him the quotation.
Mr. FISHER: If the hon. Member says that, I entirely accept his statement. I do not in the least deny that when you have salaries discussions going on all over the country and at the same time you have a Teachers' Superannuation Act in force which provides certain benefits, those benefits may form an element in the discussion, not only as that discussion is carried on in the Committee, but as it is
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carried on with the public education authorities. That is obvious. The point I wish to put is this. When the Burnham scales were agreed to between the representatives of the teachers and the representatives of the local authorities, and when the allocation was agreed to, I had to review both the scales and the allocation in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and we came to the conclusion not only that we could not only not go beyond those scales, hut that we could not go so far, and we insisted upon certain economies being introduced—economies which involved more than £1,000,000 of money. That is a material fact.
Lord R. CECIL: But you did not say anything then about a contributory scheme of pensions?
Mr. FISHER: In any case, we should not have been in a position to grant any advance from the point of view of salary over the advances recommended by the Burnham Committee. That is a perfectly fair statement of the facts from our point of view. The question has been raised whether there has been a breach of contract. The Government has no contract with the teachers, so there can he no question of a breach of contract. The House requires to be satisfied whether we are acting honourably in the matter. I confess that in view of the fact that under our present system of grants the State makes a contribution to teachers' salaries, and also makes a grant of the whole of the pensions, I cannot think that we are acting in any dishonourable way.
Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members who speak must confine themselves to the question whether the Debate be now adjourned.
Mr. MURRAY MACDONALD: I confess I do not think the Minister of Education has done anything to remove our doubts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in a speech some time ago stated that the Government would set up a Committee with instructions to devise a contributory scheme, and, pending the preparation of that scheme and the passing of it into law, there was to be a levy of 5 per cent. on the salaries of the teachers. But the reference to the Committee is not a reference of that kind at all. The reference to the Committee is, "To consider what modification they could suggest in the

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7.0 p.m.
existing pensions scheme with a view to securing economy."
Let us assume that the Committee report in favour of a reduction of the scale. In what position would the Government and the House be? I. confess that the whole procedure of the Government on this question rather staggers me. As I read the terms of reference, it is open to the Committee to suggest a reduction of the scale and so to secure economy. What position would the Government and the House be in if it passed this Bill? I cannot believe that the House ought to accept this proposal of the Government. There is one other point—
Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman is again going into the merits of the Bill. The question at the moment is not whether or not this Bill should be accepted. It is simply whether the Debate should be adjourned, for particular reasons brought forward by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil).
Mr. MACDONALD: I want to put before the House a case in favour of adjourning the Debate.
Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will do that simply, and without entering into the other schemes that might have been adopted.
Mr. MACDONALD: I will put quite simply and briefly what I want to say further in support of the Motion for the Adjournment. It is essential to carry the teachers with us in this proposal. If we proceed with this Bill we shall certainly arouse a very large amount of discontent among them, and we shall prevent them coming willingly into a non-contributory scheme in the future. On that ground I shall support the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. R. McNEILL: It was impossible to gather from the speech of the President of the Board of Education whether or not he is in favour of the Motion that the Debate should be adjourned. I hope very much that he is, because a great many of us are in the perplexity which was put before the House by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil). I certainly feel a great difficulty. I am very anxious
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to support the Government in any economy, if I honourably can, but the Debate has made it quite clear that there is at least a doubt whether, in supporting this Bill we should not be, as the Noble Lord said, acting in a shabby way, if nothing worse. Therefore, I hope the Government will accept the proposal of the Noble Lord. While I am anxious to support this Bill, until I get some assurance, which we have not had at present, that we are really open to support it, if the Government oppose the Motion, and forces us to a Division, I shall be under the necessity of voting against them.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): I am under the disadvantage that I have not been able to be present during the whole of this discussion. Not anticipating its character I had made a series of other engagements involving my attendance, which have kept me out of the Chamber, though I have been in the precincts during the whole time the House has been sitting. I understand that the Adjournment of the Debate has been moved, and that, as Mr. Speaker has pointed out, according to our rules, if such a Motion be made, the area of discussion is strictly limited to the particular purpose for which the Motion for the Adjournment is proposed. The question we have to ask ourselves at this stage is this simple one: Is it desirable to adjourn this Debate or is it not? Into the merits of the Bill I must not go. Into the difficulties of realising economy, as illustrated by this Debate, I must not go. Into the variations of temperature and feeling in the House from week to week and day to day, according as it is voting taxation or trying to secure economy, I must not go. I propose strictly to eschew all those tempting subjects, and to keep closely within the limits which Mr. Speaker has imposed in accordance with the rules of the House.
Keeping within those limits, I am met with two difficulties. I understand that the argument in favour of Adjournment is this, that doubt has arisen, and has been expressed in many quarters of the House, as to whether it is compatible with the traditions of our Government that we should ask these contributions of the teachers: whether the exaction of such a contribution by the Government and the House would be compatible with our good faith, broadly interpreted, and not rigidly

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examined in the light of any specific pledge. I do not understand that it is said that there was a pledge, but that the circumstances were such as, at any rate, to raise a doubt in the minds of many hon. Members as to whether it would be politic, in the broad sense of the word, or wise for this House to proceed further with the Bill which is under discussion. It is accordingly suggested that the Debate should be adjourned, in order that the question may be cleared up. I wonder whether those who have supported the Motion can help me a little to an appreciation of what they have in their minds? To what Committee would they propose to refer the question whether the honour of this House is pledged? What Committee is going to decide where we, the Members of the House assembled in the House, are unable to come to a decision?
Lord R. CECIL: We want to get the facts. We can decide.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the Noble Lord will answer my question when I have done, I shall be grateful.
Lord R. CECIL: I am afraid I shall not be allowed by our rules to do that.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should be very grateful, because I am really asking for information, but it might more easily meet my difficulties if I might be allowed to finish my speech.
Lord R. CECIL: I beg your pardon.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope the House will see that I am not in any way pedantic. I see the difficulty of its not being a judge of its own honour and of referring to some Committee the question of what its honour is. I understand that the proposal is that this matter should be referred to a departmental Committee which has been set up for quite another purpose. If it be possible to refer a question of that kind to any Committee, I am quite sure it will be impossible to refer it to a Committee selected merely to say what should be the best way in which the teachers should contribute to the cost of their own superannuation. Let us know two things. What is the Committee that those who ask for a Committee desire; and, in the second place, what is the reference to the Committee which they are going to propose?
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I think that reference requires some consideration. I do not. know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean)—who, I think, supported the Noble Lord in the Motion for the Adjournment and in the idea of having a Committee on this matter—has got any clear idea of his own as to what the terms of reference should be? Is it to be a Select Committee of the House and are we to refer to them the Measure now before us, and invite them to suggest to the House whether the proposal to levy 5 per cent. on the salaries of the teachers for the purpose of a contribution to the expenses of superannuation pending the exploration by the other Committee of a permanent solution is compatible with the honour of the House or not.? I cannot think that the House seriously proposes to refer that question to the Select Committee. If the House has another proposal in its mind, or if those who have supported the Motion have any proposal in their minds, I beg them, before we are called upon for a decision, to let us know what it is that they want. Is it a Select Committee, or is it some other kind of Committee? What is the reference which they would suggest should be given to it? It would be much more easy to express an opinion if we had a definite answer to that. In the present position of the discussion it is extremely difficult to believe that the House will declare itself incapable of deciding what its honour demands. Perhaps the hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks)—
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am afraid I have exhausted my right to speak.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Gentleman has not exhausted his right to speak, as we are now on the Motion for the Adjournment. If he is in agreement with the present Motion for the Adjournment, would he help us with a clearer explanation of what are the steps to be taken?
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I happen to be the unfortunate individual who first, on this side of the House, raised what I may call the conscientious issue in this matter. It is not a question of asking a Committee to deal with the honour of the House. It is a question

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of appointing a tribunal, a small Committee of this House, to ascertain one definite fact. The fact is, that we have the Act of 1918, which was passed. Then there were negotiations between the teachers and the local authorities, over which Lord Burnham presided, and the teachers say, quite distinctly, that in those negotiations it was in their minds, in their knowledge, and referred to, that all the new scale of salaries until 1925 was based upon a non-contributory pensions basis. That may be an utter untruth; I do not know whether it is or not. That is the statement made to many hon. Members of this House by teachers throughout the country. I took the trouble to read to the House a letter from Lord Burnham on the subject—
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have read his reply.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My right hon. Friend has read Lord Burnham's reply. His reply, which I read to the House, shortly was this, that the circumstances of the case were present undoubtedly in the minds of those who were negotiating in this matter. I think that while my right hon. Friend was out of the House for a few minutes the Chancellor of the Exchequer rather disputed Lord Burnham's view.
Sir R. HORNE: No, no. I referred to another part of the letter, that addressed to Sir James Yoxall, in which it was specifically stated that the shorthand notes contained no reference whatever to the broaching of the question of a noncontributory scheme of pensions. I think if the hon. Member will glance down Lord Burnham's letter, he will see that. It is quite right, if I may say so, to suggest that the subject of pensions could not but be present, because it was of so recent occurrence.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That just shows the grave difficulty which exists. Here is Lord Burnham who presided over this meeting between the teachers and the local authorities writing me a letter expressing the view which I have given to the House. I do not say that view is right, nor do I say it is wrong. I do not say the teachers' view is right or that it is wrong, but if Lord Burnham is right and if the teachers are right, then we are running a grave risk of doing that which,
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in strict honour, we should not do. It is in order to ascertain the fact—the honour of the House can take care of itself—that I ask the Government to consent to the adjournment of the Debate and the appointment of a small Select Committee to elucidate the one fact whether the negotiations and the decision on a new scale of salary were based, in the minds of the contracting parties, on a non-contributory scheme? That should be answered yea or nay. If the answer to that is yea, the Bill cannot pass. if it is nay, we should know it.
Major GRAY: I support the Motion for the adjournment of this Debate. If my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has any difficulty in regard to the appointment of the Committee, I would say at once that many of us—and I am sure the teachers outside—would accept the right hon. Gentleman himself as the Committee. We know that the honour of the House is perfectly safe in his hands. We also know we can prove the case submitted to the House by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) right up to the very hilt, and beyond it. We know the Noble Lord has only stated the minimum of the facts. The case is really stronger than his speech suggests, and stronger than that which has been indicated to the House by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks). We feel absolutely certain that, if the facts were within the cognisance of the Leader of the House, he would not proceed further with the Bill at this juncture. If my right hon. Friend feels he would rather not undertake this responsibility, then I am perfectly certain this one question which has been raised should be inquired into, quite independently of the merits of this particular Bill or of the merits of the contributory system. I want to take a larger view than that of the interests of the teachers. If the teachers feel that Parliament has broken faith with them, what must be the result in the teaching of the children. Willing obedience in a well-ordered community is founded on a sense of perfect justice, and if once that sense of justice he destroyed, the influence will be very widespread indeed. Therefore it is essential this point should be cleared up. Is the honour of Parliament involved or is it not? I believe the teachers can prove that it is involved.

321
Let me put it to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that the fact that this Act was passed by Parliament in 1918 was ever present to the minds of those who were negotiating. On the part of the local authorities anxious to pay as little as the circumstances justified and on the part of the teachers anxious to make good their case, the negotiators on either side were influenced by the fact that, there was then in operation this particular Act. I say without hesitation that those who were negotiating on behalf of the teachers were induced consciously to accept a lower scale of salaries than they would have pressed for had this Act not been in existence. What is worse, the teachers outside were very reluctant indeed to accept the decision of the Burnham Committee, and the teachers' leaders had to go up and down the country and urge them to accept this, and always the argument used was, "You must bear in mind that concurrently with this scale of salaries there is a non-contributory pension scheme." We cannot separate these two things. If now the House decides to demand from the teachers this contribution, it is tantamount to breaking the scale of salaries. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said earlier in the year that the Government would not think of doing that. My contention is, that the teachers can prove to any impartial tribunal that there existed this distinct impression that the salaries and the noncontributory scheme went one with the other, and that that bond must be maintained sacred in London until 1923 and in the country until 1925, and that then all parties were free to enter into new negotiations.
Is it worth while for the Government to do this? They can see the temper of the House in this matter. If we go to a Division, my impression is that we shall carry the adjournment of the Debate, and I very much doubt if they proceed with the Bill, whether or not they can carry it. A strong feeling has been expressed for days past on this subject. Paramount, and above all things, far beyond the question of salaries or of contributory or non contributory schemes—above and beyond all, stands the honour of this House. Let not any act of ours this afternoon enable the public to say that the pledged word of Parliament cannot he trusted; that it can be lightly thrown aside. We have
322
used harsh terms with regard to treaties being regarded as "scraps of paper." I trust no pledge over given by the British Government will ever be treated by the British public as a worthless scrap of paper. Therefore, as there is this doubt, as to whether or not the honour of the House is involved, I feel sure I can speak on behalf of the teachers when I say, they are perfectly willing to submit the question to open examination by any unprejudiced person, and prepared to abide by the results.
Mr. MACQUISTEN: I have listened to the special pleading of the last. speaker, and I hold to the view that there is nothing into which to inquire. The facts are perfectly well known. A Superannuation Act was on the Statute Book, and a new Act was passed. We are told about negotiations in the Burnham Committee between the teachers and the local authorities, as if these were negotiations between conquerors and conquered. There were no negotiations. That was a Commission of Inquiry, and the local authorities were not bound to accept any of its decisions. The thing that astonishes me is that with the facts before us, in a country where every one of us has to face thousands of decent unemployed working men, the teachers here should confess—and an inquiry is not needed to disclose the fact—that their salaries have been raised since the conclusion of the War to 2½ times what they were before.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it in order to discuss this question?
Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members must confine themselves strictly and solely to reasons whether or not the Debate should be adjourned.
Mr. MACQUISTEN: I submit there is no reason for adjourning it at all. All the facts are before us. We have heard a statement from Lord Burnham, who was Chairman, and we have heard there was no word about this matter in the shorthand notes. This is a mere red herring drawn across the path. We know the teachers are a very powerful body politically. We know they have been told to bully their Members of Parliament. We have seen that publicly stated, and this is part of the plan—to get the Debate adjourned, and give them time to do so. We can see the effect of the political pro-

323
paganda on hon. Members opposite, and even some on this side. I say the House is now in possession of all the necessary facts to enable it to decide on this Bill.
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps the House will allow me to add a few words to what I have said already on the subject, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Accrington (Major Gray) made something like a direct personal appeal to me, and as I have had the benefit of an explanation of the actual point at issue, which it is proposed to refer to a Committee, given by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks). My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Accrington will not be surprised if I should decline to be the tribunal to which this matter is referred. I am ready to take my share of responsibility for any decision to which the House may come, but I would not undertake to act as sole arbiter in a matter of this kind, nor do I conceive that such a proposal would be satisfactory to the House. Just see what the position is. Is there any fact which is in doubt, and which can be cleared up by inquiry by a Select Committee? May I invite the House to consider that point?
It has been pointed out that a noncontributory Superannuation Act was on the Statute Book. My Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) says he is informed by the teachers that at a certain stage, those teachers who were members of the Burnham Committee, went out and saw a larger body of teachers and as an argument to induce them to support the Burnham scale, said, "You must remember among other things that we have a non-contributory pension scheme." But there is no suggestion that either side in the Burnham Committee based their decision on that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] Certainly, it is not suggested in the letter from Lord Burnham. What is the procedure of this suggested Committee to be? Is it suggested that each individual member of the Burnham Committee should have this question put to him: Was your judgment materially affected when you agreed to recommend these scales, by the fact that at that time a non-contributory pension scheme was in existence? It seems to me impossible to proceed in that form, and to ask those gentlemen who sat in this Com-
324
mitten now some time ago, to put themselves back into the exact frame of mind in which they were then when this subject, if it was mentioned, at any rate, was not mentioned with sufficient force r iteration to appear upon the shorthand totes and to say whether it was a material factor in the decision arrived at.
That is not all. What was the function of the Burnham Committee? It was not to decide the salaries. It was make recommendations to the Government, and the Government preserved full liberty to consider, to adopt, to amend, or to reject those recommendations. Is it suggested that at any stage of the handling of the matter by the Government—which was the authority representing the people whose money was being expended, and whose money alone was being expended, because there was no local authorities' money, but only the money of the taxpayer—is it suggested, that at any moment the Government came under any pledge or was asked to come under any pledge that, if a settlement was come to on the basis of this Burnham scale, the pension scheme should be adopted? Such a thing was never suggested. One of the reasons why I would not accept the task which, in terms so honourable to me, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Accrington suggested I should undertake, is that I was Chairman of the Government Committee which considered the Geddes Report, out of which the present Bill arises. Out of an economy of £18,000,000 recommended we turned down £12,000,000 because we thought that the honour of the House or the Government or the local authorities was pledged in respect of that money in so far as that money affected salaries, which was to a very large extent. I think we were scrupulous in observing that. That is the reason why I am not the person to sit as a tribunal in this matter, but I urge that the House has already all the relevant facts in its possession and that on those facts the House can form a judgment and, I think, should form a judgment in favour of the attitude which the Government has taken up.
Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does not the whole discussion for the last hour prove the necessity for adjourning the Debate? The right hon. Gentleman has attempted to put the rest of the House in a false position. He is suggesting that the only proposal before the House is the appoint-

325
ment of a Committee to decide as to what the Burnham Committee meant, but that is not the question before the House at all. The whole question really before the House is whether the Government, in view of the position taken up by the House and clearly expressed by every speaker in this Debate, should not take time to think over their position in regard to the whole of this Bill. Some of us have an Amendment on the Paper urging that the whole question should be remitted to a Select Committee. That, would be one way out. The other way out is the suggestion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) that this single point should be remitted to a Committee, but certainly the very attitude of the Government during this last hour's Debate, is the supreme argument in favour of
postponing the decision of the Government in this matter. They have not known whether they were for the Adjournment or not till the last speech of the Leader of the House. Now they have come down against the Adjournment, but I beg the House to observe that all the time the Minister of Education was speaking they were undecided as to whether or not to accept the Adjournment Motion. Now the whole question has been left in a state of complete incoherence, and it would be wise to adjourn in order that the Government should reconsider its position as regards the whole of this Bill.
Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided: Ayes, 151; Noes, 148.

Division No. 106.]

AYES.

[7.35 P.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Pearce, Sir William

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Grundy, T. W.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Purchase, H. G.

Banton, George

Hallas, Eldred

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Barker, Major Robert H.

Halls, Walter

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor (Barnstaple)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertiilery)

Hancock, John George

Remnant, Sir James

Barrand, A. R.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Rendall, Athelstan

Barton, sir William (Oldham)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hayward, Evan

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

Robertson, John

Betterton, Henry B.

Hirst, G. H.

Royce, William Stapleton

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Seddon, J. A.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hogge, James Myles

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Holmes, J. Stanley

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Bromfield, William

Hopkins, John W. W.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Irving, Dan

Sitch, Charles H.

Burn, Cot. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Jesson, C.

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Cairns, John

John, William (Rhondda, West)

spencer, George A.

Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

Johnson, Sir Stanley

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchln)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Stanton, Charles Butt

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sutton, John Edward

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kennedy, Thomas

Swan, J. E.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Kenyon, Barnet

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Lawson, John James

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Pialstow)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

Dawson, Sir Philip

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Waterson, A. E.

Devlin, Joseph

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Mallaliou, Frederick William

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Edwards, G. (Norfolk. South)

Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Wignall, James

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Wilkie, Alexander

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Martin, A. E.

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Finney, Samuel

Mills, John Edmund

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Foot, Isaac

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Wintringham, Margaret

Galbraith, Samuel

Morris, Richard

Wise, Frederick

Ganzoni, Sir John

Mosley, Oswald

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Worsfold, T. Cato

Gillis, William

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness 4 Ross)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Myers, Thomas

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Sir Wm. Joynson-Hlcks and Major

Greene, Lt.-Col Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Gray

Gretton, Colonel John

Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Forestler-Walker, L.

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Armstrong, Henry Bruce

Forrest, Walter

Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox)

Atkey, A. R.

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Neal, Arthur

Balrd, sir John Lawrence

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Flnchley)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gange, E. Stanley

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

Gardner, Ernest

Newton, Major Sir Harry K.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel sir John

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Barnett, Major Richard w.

Glanville, Harold James

Nield, Sir Herbert

Barnston, Major Harry

Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Hamar

Parker, James

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Greig, Colonel Sir James William

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Birchall, J. Dearman

Hallwoad, Augustine

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pratt, John William

Blair, Sir Reginald

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Randles, Sir John scurrah

Breese, Major Charles E.

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Brings, Harold

Hood, Sir Joseph

Reld, O. D.

Brown, Major D. C.

Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckn'nn, W.)

Rodger, A. K.

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Rothschild, Lionel de

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Butcher, Sir John George

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Casey, T. W.

Hurd, Percy A.

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Cautley, Henry S trot her

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Slmm. M. T.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Blrm. W.)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S,

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Chamberlain, N. (Blrm., Ladywood)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sturrock, J. Leng

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Jephcott, A. R.

Sugden, W. H.

Clough, Sir Robert

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Sutherland, Sir William

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Johnstone, Joseph

Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (KnutsJord)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Cope, Major William

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Tickler, Thomas George

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Kidd, James

Townley, Maximilian G.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Tryon, Major George Clement

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lloyd, George Butler

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Wolmer, viscount

Edgar, Clifford B.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tlngd'n)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Edge, Captain Sir William

Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith)

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Ednam, Viscount

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Young, E. H. (Norwich)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Macquissten, F. A.

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Magnus, Sir Philip

Younger, Sir George

Fell, Sir Arthur

Manville, Edward

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Middlebrook, Sir William

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

Mitchell, sir William Lane

Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Dudley Ward.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Debate adjourned accordingly; to be resumed To-morrow.

ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
Adjourned accordingly at Four teen Minutes before Eight o'Clock.

  SLOUGH DEPOT.
  SLOUGH DEPOT.
  BEER.
  BEER.
  ENEMY ACTION (COMPENSATION CLAIMS).
  ENEMY ACTION (COMPENSATION CLAIMS).
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.
  SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS AND APPLIANCES.
  SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS AND APPLIANCES.
EDUCATION.
  ORIENTAL LANGUAGES (PHONETIC RESEARCH).
  ORIENTAL LANGUAGES (PHONETIC RESEARCH).
  SECONDARY EDUCATION COMMITTEE CLERKS, SCOTLAND (PENSIONS).
  SECONDARY EDUCATION COMMITTEE CLERKS, SCOTLAND (PENSIONS).
  WAR GRAVES (PHOTOGRAPHS).
  WAR GRAVES (PHOTOGRAPHS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (VACCINATION).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (VACCINATION).
HOUSING.
  PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.
  PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.
  NON-PARLOUR, HOUSES, NOTTINGHAM.
  NON-PARLOUR, HOUSES, NOTTINGHAM.
  SMALL-POX (VACCINATION).
  SMALL-POX (VACCINATION).
  PAUPER LUNATICS, RAMPTON ASYLUM (MAINTENANCE).
  PAUPER LUNATICS, RAMPTON ASYLUM (MAINTENANCE).
  SMOKE AND NOXIOUS VAPOURS.
  SMOKE AND NOXIOUS VAPOURS.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  SOUTH OCKENDEN FARM COLONY.
  SOUTH OCKENDEN FARM COLONY.
  SEVERN (ELECTRICITY POWER GENERATION).
  SEVERN (ELECTRICITY POWER GENERATION).
  TORRINGTON AND HALWILL LIGHT RAILWAY.
  TORRINGTON AND HALWILL LIGHT RAILWAY.
  FINANCE COMMITTEE (INDIA).
  FINANCE COMMITTEE (INDIA).
  BRITISH EAST AFRICA.
  BRITISH EAST AFRICA.
  EMIGRATION (CHILDREN).
  EMIGRATION (CHILDREN).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (WOMEN).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (WOMEN).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (JOURNAL).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (JOURNAL).
  CRIMINAL FUGITIVES (EXTRADITION).
  CRIMINAL FUGITIVES (EXTRADITION).
  EGYPT.
  EGYPT.
  SAVINGS BANK DEPARTMENT (WOMEN).
  SAVINGS BANK DEPARTMENT (WOMEN).
  BIRTH CERTIFICATES.
  BIRTH CERTIFICATES.
  SWIMMING BATH, HAMPTON.
  SWIMMING BATH, HAMPTON.
  ROYAL PARKS (AGED WORKMEN).
  ROYAL PARKS (AGED WORKMEN).
  MR. G. L. BEVAN.
  MR. G. L. BEVAN.
  HACKNEY CARRIAGE ACT (OFFENCES).
  HACKNEY CARRIAGE ACT (OFFENCES).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
DURHAM COUNTY WATER BOARD BILL.
Read 2a, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
BLACKBURN CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

PILOTAGE PROVSIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, this Bill is on exactly the same lines as other similar Bills that have been introduced into your Lordships' House in previous years. If your Lordships desire an explanation of any part of it, I shall be glad to give it. I need, however, I think, only say that petitions were lodged against the Sunderland, the Tees and the Tyne Orders in the first House, and the Bill was considered by an Opposed Committee who, after hearing evidence from the parties concerned, passed the Orders in the form proposed by the Board of Trade.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Somerleylon.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed.

MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
The EARL OF DONDUCHMORE in the Chair.
Clause 1:
Power to require indication of origin where make up gives false impression.
1.—(1) Where the Board, after making such enquiries as they think necessary for the purpose of enabling them properly to exercise their powers under this section, are of opinion that a false impression as to the origin of any class or description of goods imported into the United Kingdom is likely to arise by reason of their form, style, or finish, or otherwise, the Board may, subject to the provisions of this section, make an order requiring an indication of origin to be given in the case of goods of that class or description made or produced outside the United Kingdom.
(2) Where the Board propose to take into consideration the question of making an order under this section, they shall publish notice of their intention in the Gazette and in such ether manner as they think desirable, and shall not proceed to make the order until the expiration of at least three months from the date of the publication of the notice, and shall afford to all persons appearing to them to be interested in or likely to be affected by the proposed order an opportunity of making representations with respect thereto, and if they so desire of being heard by the Board.
LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "a false impression as to the origin of any class or description of goods imported into the United Kingdom is likely to arise by reason of their form, style, or finish, or otherwise, the Board may, subject to the provisions of this section, make an order requiring," and insert "it is desirable in the public interest that."
The noble Lord said: This is the first of a series of Amendments of which I have given Notice. I think that the briefest way in which to deal with this matter is to read Clause 1 as it would stand if all the Amendments to this clause standing in my name were passed, and then to point out the difference between that clause and the clause as now printed. If my Amendments were made, the clause would read as follows:
"Where the Board, after making such enquiries as they think necessary for the purpose of enabling them properly to exercise their powers under this section, are of opinion that it is desirable in the public interest that an indication of origin should be given in the case of any class or description of goods made or produced outside of and imported into the United Kingdom, the Board shall make an order requiring such indication of origin: Provided that where goods are imported in bulk or sheet such indication of origin shall be displayed on each article therein comprised."
It will be observed that the Bill as it stands is confined to cases where a false
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impression of the origin of any class or description of goods is given, and there is left out the question of any other matter when it might be of public interest.
I use the words "public interest" because this Bill is the outcome of a Committee appointed in October, 1919, by Sir Auckland Geddes, then President of the Board of Trade. That Committee made a Reportin 1920, and the Bill purports to be based on their Report. The Committee were a very energetic body. They held eighteen meetings, eight lasting all day; they examined seventy witnesses; and they conferred with representatives of all the Dominions and Colonies. They sent to the several Government Departments, and to organisations representative of trade, industry, and labour, and they stated that ample opportunity was "afforded to all interested sections of the community to place their views" before the Committee. In their Report they mention that an amendment of the present Merchandise Marks Act is required in respect of the provisions relating to indications of origin, and that the Act is directed to the suppression of false or misleading marks. They state that the principal question before them is whether there should be an obligatory rule to mark all imported goods, or a rule to mark any special classes of imported goods with a general or specific indication of origin.
In their report they threw out the suggestion that a general notification should be given, but they dealt specifically with the conditions on which goods should be marked. They said this—
"Conditions vary so much as between one class of goods and another, and between one trade and another, that we do not feel we can recommend any general provision that all imported goods shall bear an indication of the country of origin, or, in the alternative, some such words as 'Imported,' or 'Foreign," 'Dominion,' or 'Colonial.' We have, however, received evidence which appears to show that, in some trades at any rate, there is a consensus of opinion that the special marking of imported goods of the kind produced in the trade would be to the advantage not only of the particular trade but of the community generally."
They then mention that this is especially so in the cases where there is deliberate imitation of British goods in their form or get-up, and they state:—
"We think that such views cannot be ignored; but it is not possible without a particular enquiry in each special case to say in what cases compulsory marking would be to the public interest. On consideration, therefore, we recommend that

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when it has been established, after official inquiry, that it is in the public interest that the local origin of the goods should be indicated in the case of any particular description or class of ported goods, the Board of Trade should have powers to deal with the question by Order."
They point out that an official Inquiry is to be made and that that official Inquiry should state what is to be done; and they add that
"in the course of the official Inquiry, ample opportunity should be given to all parties interested or affected to put forward arguments and evidence for or against the proposed Order, and particular attention should be directed to the question whether the goods are manufactured, produced or sold under circumstances constituting unfair competition."
Now, the point of unfair competition is left out of the Bill as it stands. The question of false impression is dealt with, but of the main and principal point of this Committee's Report—namely, unfair competition—no notice is taken. The manufacturers and the National Union of Manufacturers, with their many affiliated bodies, are pressing for this Amendment, on the ground that the Committee represented manufacturers, traders, consumers, lawyers and officials, and that of the fifteen members of the Committee one did not sign because he was never present, and the other fourteen were unanimous in proposing that these matters should be dealt with in the way which they suggested.
Instead of taking up this matter the Bill deals with only one question, and it leaves out the question of unfair competition. The question of unfair competition was pressed by the manufacturing interest very strongly, and was one of their chief points. The Report says that a desire was expressed to distinguish goods emanating from countries in which unfair labour conditions were prevalent, or in which unfair methods of competition are practised. The Committee went on, in the body of their Report, to suggest that after ample opportunities had been given of being heard, particular attention should be directed to the question whether goods were manufactured, produced or sold in circumstances constituting unfair competition, and the very first of their recommendations, which is as to compulsory marking, says that
"The Board of Trade should have power to make an Order, after official inquiry has shown that such an Order would be to the public interest, requiring indications of origin (either specific or general) to be given in the case of any particular kind, description or class of imported goods."
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They then go on to say—
"In the course of the Inquiry particular attention should be directed to the question whether the goods are manufactured, prod need or sold under circumstances constituting unfair competition."
In the next clause they refer to the question of cases where a false belief or false impression is produced. Consequently, from this Bill, the first main recommendation of the Committee, and also the point alluded to twice in the body of the Report, is omitted, and the other portions of the Committee's report alone are dealt with.
Possibly, the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will give some explanation of the reasons for this. It may be said that the words "public interest" are very wide in their nearing, but the Committee pointed out two main lines upon which public interest should be considered—namely, false impression, with which the Bill deals, and unfair competition, with which the Bill does not deal. It might also be said that this is a manufacturer's Amendment and that the nanufacturers are pressing for it. I have already mentioned that manufacturers were upon the Committee, but so also were other interests, and the Committee were unanimous in their suggestion. It cannot be said to be a manufacturers' or producers' Amendment, any more than it is an Amendment of the traders or consumers. It may have been a compromise, but they came to that conclusion.
It might be argued that this power in the hands of the Board of Trade might give rise to more officials and cause greater expense. I doubt it, especially when compared with the interests connected with this matter. Certainly there would be an official Inquiry, but the Committee lay it down very emphatically that there would be ample opportunity for persons to be heard, and that all considerations should be taken into account. If this was so a few standard pages would probably lay down the lines upon which public interest was to be directed, and the two lines which the Report lays down are, as I have said, unfair competition and a false impression. In moving, as I now do, the omission of certain words and the insertion of others, I have indicated that, so far as this part of the Bill is supposed to be an endorsement of the Report of the Committee, it does not appear to come up to the Report of the Committee in the main point which the Committee emphasised.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 11 to 16, leave out from ("that") in line 11 to ("an") in line 16, and insert ("it is desirable in the public interest that").—(Lord Askwith.)
LORD STUART OF WORTLEY: I have been asked to support—or rather I was asked to move—an Amendment which verbally is scarcely distinguishable from the series of Amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith. That request came in the first instance from the Cutlers' Company and the Chamber of Commerce at Sheffield, and is supported by well-known Labour leaders in that great community. It is further endorsed by the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, from whom I received a letter just before I came to the House.
There is no disguising the fact that this is an age-long contest between the interests of the manufacturer or producer on the one hand, and the merchant, distributor, or middleman on the other. It is to the interest of the merchant to draw his supplies from wherever he can get them, and to give no more indication to the ultimate consumer than he can manage to escape giving of the real and true origin of the goods. On the other hand, the interests of the producer, as I hope your Lordships will remember, is intimately tied up with the interests of the great working class who, for a weekly wage, produce with their own hands the goods which are destined for the acceptance of the consumer. The whole question is, therefore bound up with employment and unemployment. It must be manifest that under the guise of a specious appearance, of a careful avoiding of all differences, even if no actual delusive inscriptions are adopted, it is quite possible that the employment of large bodies of our population may be filched away from them, owing to the public's being induced to give an entirely undeserved preference to an article, possibly made of inferior material, which comes from abroad.
The Bill requires that the Board of Trade, before exercising its discretion, should find that there is, in fact, some specific creation of a false impression. I submit that if you limit the discretion of the Board of Trade in that way, you are practically inviting the difficulties which over and over again have been shown in experience to lead to negative and nugatory results. The difficulty is to produce some
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definite consumer who— say, for eighteenpence—has bought some small article, and has been, no doubt, deceived by getting an inferior thing. You cannot get that man to go to the Board of Trade and say he has been put under a false impression. It is like the question of proving somebody to have been annoyed in the street. Your laws have even failed of effect because of that requirement.
After the subject has been considered by a Departmental Committee which gave great industry to the investigation of this subject, and deliberately held that the weight of evidence bore in favour of the less restricted words adopted in my noble friend's Amendment, I think it is a little hard that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill should have said, in introducing it, that a compromise ought to be effected; in other words, that the defeated party before that Committee, notwithstanding that the weight of evidence was found to be against them, should be put exactly in the same position as if the evidence had been at least half-way in their favour. I submit that your Lordships would do well to follow my noble friend in this series of Amendments.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD GORELL): The noble Lord who has just spoken has justly said that this Amendment brings back an age-long contest. It is the whole purpose of the Bill so far as possible to avoid controversy on a matter of some difficulty and intricacy; and, in asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to the Bill, I mentioned that this was one of the few particulars in the Bill where a departure had been made from the Report of the Committee. But I do not think, in spite of what has fallen from the two noble Lords, that it is a very substantial departure. It is true that, in their Report, the Committee used some phrases indicative of their interest in protecting the public against unfair competition. But, if one looks again at the section of the Report to which the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, drew particular attention—paragraph 6—one finds that what the Committee had especially in their minds was cases in which foreign goods deliberately imitated British goods in their form or get-up; and the whole purpose of this Bill is to prevent fraudulent imitation.
The Amendment, as proposed, would altogether widen and greatly change the

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whole scope of the Bill. It would take it away from the non-controversial ground and take it out of the purpose in view, which is stated to be that of protecting purchasers from deliberate fraud. It would further have the disadvantage—or, at any rate, many might think it a disadvantage—that it would place in the hands of the Board of Trade very wide powers, and we are familiar with criticism as to the demerits of bureaucracy. This would be a very deliberate instance of it. It is not a point which has failed to arouse the very keenest consideration. It has been thoroughly weighed, and the Government are not prepared, in a Bill of this noncontroversial character, so to widen the main clause as to bring it back to high controversy, and also to give it a protective flavour which it is not the purpose of the Bill to introduce. I am sorry I cannot accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved, in subsection (1), after "form" ["form, style, or finish"] to insert "get-up." The noble Lord said: This is really a drafting Amendment. When the Bill was originally drafted there was sonic doubt as to whether the word "getup" could be considered as sufficiently technical, but on further consideration it has been held that it has now established itself, that it is sufficiently understood, that no difficulty will arise in regard to it, and that it does carry out the wishes and recommendations of the Committee.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 14, after ("form") insert ("getup").—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH had on the Paper three Amendments to subsection (2). The noble Lord said: The object of these Amendments is to obtain some certainty as to when the Order shall be made. The second Amendment is to provide that where the Board propose to take into consideration the question of making an Order under this section, they shall publish notice of their intention in the London Gazette and in such other manner as they think desirable, and shall proceed to make the Order within three months. As the Bill stands the words are "and shall not proceed to make the Order until the expiration of at least three months." Then, at the
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end of the clause, I propose to add this proviso—
"Provided that the Board limy, on cause being shown that such course is proper and just, postpone the operation of such order for a further period not exceeding two calendar months."
That would give three months in the majority of cases and five months in special cases.
In ninety cases out of one hundred three months would be quite enough in which to come to a decision. But we have found, and I dare say we shall hear in the course of the day a great deal more about it, that delays have arisen under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. The essence of trade is security and certainty, and to have a matter hung up at the desire of a Government Department without any certainty as to when a decision shall be come to is very detrimental. It would be much better, I submit, to have a definite period within which a decision should be given, with a certain elasticity to enable the Board to prolong the period in difficult cases when they find that further persons may have to be heard because the subject is of grave importance.
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out ("not")
Page 2, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("until the expiration of at least") and insert ("within")
Page 2, line 7, at end insert ("Provided that the Board may, on cause being shown that such course is proper and just, postpone the operation of such order for a further period not exceeding two calendar month;").—(Lord Askwith.)
LORD GORELL: It is felt that three months is not a very long time in view of the possibly serious nature of an Order when made. If the noble Lord feels strongly on this point, I am prepared to consider it afresh and to see whether it would be possible to meet him on Report stage.
LORD ASKWITH: I shall be willing in those circumstances to withdraw the Amendments.
Amendments, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 (Amendment of s. 16 of principal Act):
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection—

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"(3) In its application to this section the definition of 'trade mark' which is contained in this Act shall have effect as if for the words 'a mark which is by reason of user distinctive of the goods of the proprietor' there were substituted the words a mark which has in any legal proceedings been held to be by reason of user distinctive of the goods of the proprietor.'"
The noble Lord said: This Amendment needs, perhaps, a word of explanation. It was put down in view of the Amendments standing in the name of my noble friend, Lord Emmott, and myself, to Clause 7. It was felt that under Clause 7 the definition of "trade mark," limited by the words now in the Bill, might operate unfairly, or to the hardship of certain common law marks. I think this applies mainly to Lancashire, though even apart from Lancashire there are many common law marks which are not registered and are yet distinctive. In our desire to meet the wishes of which Lord Emmott bad given notice, it was proposed to leave out the limitation in Clause 7, but it is felt that those words cannot be left entirely out of the whole Bill. It would be an impossible task for the Customs to undertake to be the deciders as to whether someone claiming an unregistered mark which had not been held to be his by legal proceedings was in fact entitled to it. Therefore, this Amendment has been proposed, which limits the application of those words purely to the importation of the goods. It does not take away any of the remedies, and they are still open to anyone feeling himself aggrieved if the goods are not in fact stopped by the Customs. It is an administrative clause to meet the difficulty which, it will be obvious to your Lordships, must arise at the Customs under the Bill as it stands.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 29, at end insert the said new sub section.—(Lord Gorell.)
LORD EMMOTT: I only want to say that I have not had time to draw the attention of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, which suggested to me the Amendment I have placed on the Paper, to the alteration of the noble Lord. I should like to have an opportunity of doing so before the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Meaning of "trade mark" for purposes of principal Act.
7. For the purposes of the principal Act the expression "trade mark" means a mark which is used upon or in connection with goods for the purpose of indicating that they are the goods of the proprietor of the mark by virtue of manufacture, selection, certification, dealing with, or offering for sale, and which is either a registered trade mark within the meaning of the Trade Marks Act, 1905 to 1919, or a mark which has in any legal proceedings been held to be by reason of user distinctive of the goods of the proprietor.
LORD GORELL: The next Amendment standing in my name on the Paper is consequential upon that which your Lordships have just accepted.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 31, after the first ("mark") insert ("except as otherwise provided in this Act").(Lord Goren.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD GORELL: I think I have already explained, in speaking of the Amendment to Clause 4, the purpose of my next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, lines 37 and 38, leave out ("has in any legal proceedings been held to be") and insert ("is").—(Lord Gorell.)
LORD EMMOTT: I only want to thank the noble Lord for making this concession, because I am told there are a great many trade marks which have been termed distinctive by reason of their long and extensive user by the proprietor thereof, but have never formed the subject of legal proceedings.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT LORD EMMOTT moved, towards the end of the clause, to leave out "the" ["the goods of the proprietor"] and insert "such." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is a mere verbal matter, and I leave it to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to accept it or not.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 39, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("such").—(Lord Emmott.)
LORD GORELL: I am prepared to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
Provision as to conventional or generic descriptions.
8. Where a trade description is generally and bona fide applied to any class or description of goods for the purpose of indicating that the goods are goods of a particular class or are manufactured by a particular method, it shall not be deemed to he a false trade description within the meaning of the principal Act:
Provided that where any such description as aforesaid is nevertheless calculated to mislead as to the place, district, or country in which the goods to which it is applied are actually made or produced, the goods shall be prohibited to be imported into the United Kingdom unless the description is accompanied by an indication of origin.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved to omit all words in the proviso after "made or produced, the" and to insert: "foregoing provision shall not have effect unless there is added to the description, in the case of imported goods, an indication of origin, and, in the case of any other goods, a qualifying statement adequate to prevent deception." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to give effect more fully to the Report of the Committee to which reference has already been made. It was not intended that this clause should be limited only to imported goods arid, in the words on the Paper, an addition has been made bringing in other goods as well.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, lines 10 to 13, leave out from ("the") in line 10 to the end of the clause, and insert the said words.—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Interpretation.
14.—(1) In this Act unless the context otherwise requires,—
The expression "the principal Act" means the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887:
The expression "the Board" means the Board of Trade:
The expression "indication of origin" in relation to any goods means, at the option of the owner of the goods or other person concerned in the giving of the indication, either an indication as to the country in which the goods were made or produced, or such indication that the goods were made or produced outside the United Kingdon or outside His Majesty's dominions or any part thereof as, in the ease of goods in respect of which an indication of origin is required by virtue of the provisions of an order made under this Act,
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may be prescribed by that order, and as, in the case of any other goods, may from time to time be prescribed by any general directions of the Board:
The expression "device" includes any emblem, badge, crest, armorial bearings or insignia:
The expression "the Gazette" means the London, Edinburgh and Belfast Gazettes.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "indication of origin," to leave out "at the option of the owner of the goods or other person concerned in the giving of the indication." The noble Lord said: This, strictly speaking, is a drafting Amendment. It will be obvious on consideration that a definition cannot be at the option of the owner or other person concerned. The words to be taken out do not affect the alternative in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, lines 8 to 10, leave out from ("means") in line 8 to ("either") in line 10, (Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Loran GORELL Loran GORELL moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "indication of origin," to leave out "indication that the goods were made or produced outside the United Kingdom or outside His Majesty's dominions or any part thereof," and insert "other qualifying statement." The noble Lord said: This Amendment slightly widens the definition, but I do not think I need say anything about it. It is in accordance with the Report of the Committee, and I think will generally commend itself.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, lines 12 to 15, leave out from ("such") in line 12, to ("as") in line 15, and insert ("other qualifying statement").—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved, after the definition of "indication of origin," to insert: "The expression get-up' includes any covering, label, reel, or other thing in or with which the goods are sold or exposed, or had in possession for any purpose of sale." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on the Amendment your Lordships accepted to Clause 1. It brings the present Bill into harmony with Section 5 (1) (c) of the Act of 1887.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 21, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Gorell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert: "The term 'goods' shall include goods imported into this country whether for sale therein or for use directly or indirectly as a means of advertisement." The noble Lord said: The trouble that arises in this matter is this. It is said that large quantities of articles used for advertisement purposes are at present imported bearing the names of a British firm. Under the provisions of the present Merchandise Marks Act the Commissioners of Customs state that it is their practice to allow delivery of such goods without any statement as to the country of manufacture, provided that the articles in question are intended solely for gratuitous distribution for advertising purposes. British manufacturers say: "We have had a case brought to our notice where the manager of a company purchased 10,000 pencils for advertisement purposes without knowing that they were of German manufacture. The result is undercutting of manufacturers in this country and consequent unemployment." Surely, in a case like that, the goods ought to be marked. When you get a gratuitous gift unmarked as an addition to a quantity of pencils or any other sort of bonus it ought to be known that it is of German or of foreign origin. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 25, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Askwith.)
LORD GORELL: I am sorry I am not able to accept this Amendment. Its effect, I think, would be such as the noble Lord would not desire, and does not quite contemplate. Its effect would be felt in Clause 4, 1 (b). Were this Amendment to be accepted it would have the effect of preventing a practice of the Customs at the present day which is not one, I think, that anyone desires to prevent. That practice is to allow any goods which bear the name or trade mark of the manufacturer to come in without correction, provided they are consigned direct to such manufacturer and that they are not intended for resale. Let me give your Lordships an example. It is quite a common practice with wine merchants to import
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small ash trays and similar articles which are intended as advertisements, and bear the name of their own beer or spirits, or whatever the article may be. If this Amendment were accepted they would have to be marked, and one might have such a mark as "Bass's Ale, made in Germany" upon an ash tray. That would be a case where the marking would be actually a false marking. I do not think that any evil arises from the present custom. It is a frequent one, and it has been under consideration whether, if it were to be challenged, the Government would not have to insert in the Bill an Amendment in a direct contrary sense in order to make it clear that the Customs are within their power in so admitting these goods.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.
LORD STUART OF WORTLEY: May I ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill when he proposes to proceed with the Report stage? I think that something will have to be said on the Report, because Amendments have come in at a late period.
LORD GORELL: I propose, subject to the convenience of your Lordships, to take the Report stage this day week. I think that will give my noble friend, Lord Emmott, time.
LORD EMMOTT: I hope the noble Lord may defer it, if necessary.

CHILD MURDER (TRIAL) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second reading read.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, this Bill has been brought up from the Commons, where it was referred to a Grand Committee at which, I am told, the Home Secretary was present, and certain Amendments were accepted which reduce the Bill to its present form. After it had been reduced to its present form there was never any Division in opposition to it. I think, however, I ought to say that the merit of placing the Bill in this form is really due to your Lordships' House. In 1908 the then Lord Chancellor, Earl Loreburn, introduced a

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Bill to deal with this matter, but that was rejected on the Second Reading by a small minority. In the following year a Bill was introduced on the same subject by the then Lord Chief Justice, Lord Alverstone, and the Second Reading was carried by 75 votes to 18. On the occasion of the Second Reading, however, certain objections were pointed out to the principle on which that Bill was founded, especially by the late Lord James of Hereford, and on the Committee stage the framework of the Bill was amended in accordance with suggestions made by the noble Lord. After that the Bill was accepted and read a third time without further Division or opposition.
The Bill which I am now introducing to your Lordships' House is verbatim in the same terms as the Bill which left your Lordships' House in 1909 after discussion and consideration, Its purpose may be stated very shortly. On the former occasion I noticed that the Lord Chancellor stated that for sixty years a verdict of murder had never been followed by execution in cases of this kind, and certainly for a very large number of years now the conviction for murder, under the terms to which this Bill refers, has never been followed by an execution of the mother. I believe the almost universal practice is for the sentence to be commuted to penal servitude for life; and, afterwards, to a somewhat short period having regard to the conditions of the particular case.
The objection raised when the Bill was last introduced was that it gave a certain discretion to the Judge which ought, under our constitutional judicial process, to be left to the Home Secretary. There was also a suggestion that instead of passing sentence in public it might be recorded in secret. These objections were pointed out by the late Lord Halsbury. Both objections are avoided in the simple terms of the present Bill. The measure only refers to the case of a woman who is charged with the murder of her infant child and upon whose trial evidence is given that at the time of the offence the woman had not fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child. On every occasion when this matter has been discussed, either here or in the other House, a distinction has been drawn between a woman who, in certain circumstances, might really be guilty of a cruel child murder and a woman who is charged with murder at a time when she had not fully
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recovered from the effects of giving birth to the child. In such a case the option is given to the jury to convict her of manslaughter instead of murder, and if that is followed the matter could be safely left to the discretion of the Judges.
What I want to insist upon is that in this way the present practice is really maintained. It is not a question of the jury convicting under the head of murder for an offence which no one desires to be dealt with as murder. It is a question of the jury returning a verdict of manslaughter, and then leaving the punishment to the discretion of the Judge. I think it was the Lord Chancellor who said in this House that to leave the law as it is was really worse than a farce. The sentence was a farce, and it was a cruel farce, especially in regard to the mother, to insist that any such verdict in these circumstances should be recorded against her. It is hardly necessary for me to deal further with the provisions of the Bill, and I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Parmoor.)
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, I desire to support this Bill. I am cognisant of what happened in 1908 and 1909, when Lord Alverstone consulted me with regard to Lord Loreburn's proposal. Lord Loreburn's proposal was dictated by a generous desire to repair what was a great misfortune, but he went at it in the wrong way. He proposed to give it to the Judge, not to the jury, to determine whether the matter should be manslaughter or murder. Lord Alverstone, on behalf of the Judges, opposed that measure, and it was not carried. I suggested to Lord Loreburn that he should propose some measure like the present Bill, but he did not wish to risk another fall. Then Lord Alverstone came in with his Bill, and this was also objectionable. He proposed to leave the law exactly as it stood and simply say that a Judge might record a sentence of death instead of pronouncing it in open Court.
During the debate Lord James of Hereford made a proposal which was very much like the present Bill. Afterwards he introduced it and carried it. The only difference between his proposal and the present measure was that he left more to the Court and less to the jury. Judges felt a great objection to this matter being

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put into their hands. They said that it was for the jury, under proper direction, to find the crime and for the Judge to give proper punishment. I remember discussing the matter with Mr. Justice Channell, and I have written to him now and have recalled what took place. He agrees with me that the present measure is one which ought to command consent.
Under the present proposals the Judge is to be able to tell the jury that the woman was not insane but responsible for her actions, but, just as provocation of a certain kind will reduce murder to manslaughter, they may consider, if she has not fully recovered from her confinement, that what she has done is manslaughter only and not murder. The jury may find murder nevertheless, but they may, and probably always will, find manslaughter. As a Judge for sixteen years I have had a great number of child murder cases to try. Some of them no doubt were very bad; many of them by no means bad; but I have always felt great difficulty in the present state of the law. There was hardship in certain cases on the woman, hardship on the spectators, the jury and upon the Judge, and very often considerable difficulty in getting the jury to return the right verdict, knowing all the while that though the right verdict would be followed by the solemn sentence of death there was no chance of it being carried out. I think the Bill is a well conceived measure and I hope it will be passed by your Lordships' House.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, the noble and learned Lord who has just spoken has given a history of the fortunes of the legislative proposals which have preceded this, and in the main I agree with his view that this measure is less open to objection than those which have previously undergone examination in this House. I agree with him and Lord Parmoor that there is a ease which requires corrective treatment. It is not edifying or humane that the death sentence should be pronounced in cases in which every person who hears it knows perfectly well that it will not be carried into effect. For this reason I am of opinion that the House will be well advised to give the Bill a Second Reading.
I am bound to point out, however, for Lord Parmoor's consideration, that artistically it is not much more perfect than some of its predecessors which came in for a good deal of criticism. In the first place the
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Title of the Bill exhibits it as one which is to provide that a woman charged with the murder of her infant child may, under certain conditions, be convicted of manslaughter. It is a commonplace that the jury may in certain cases of murder return a verdict of manslaughter if they think proper on the facts, and the only effect of the Bill, if, indeed, it has any new effect, is to give statutory authority for a jury, in the cases to which the Bill refers, to return a verdict of manslaughter on facts which amount in law to murder—in other words, to return a verdict which is not in accordance with the evidence according to the existing law, which is not altered.
Apart from this the Bill is open to objection on two grounds. I think it right to indicate the first impression that I have formed, in order that the promoters of the Bill may, if the matter goes further, devote their attention to it. In the first place, an express provision that a jury may return the verdict of manslaughter in these cases might appear to reflect upon the right which they most undoubtedly possess and habitually exercise of returning a verdict of manslaughter in any murder case. The argument upon that point is patent.
In the second place the drafting of the Bill, whatever authority it may have in the shape of the previous passage in this or any other House, would appear to me to be open to very considerable criticism. The operative clause is Clause 1:—
"Where a woman is charged with the murder of her infant child, and upon the trial evidence is given that at the time the offence was committed the woman had not recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child, the jury may convict her of manslaughter instead of murder."
Those words appear to me to be altogether lacking in precision. What is their effect? Evidence is to be given that when the offence was committed the woman
"had not fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child."
The language used is most general in character. Many women do not fully recover from the physical consequences of having given birth to a child for nine months, or even, in rare cases, for nine years after the birth of the child. There is no limitation of any kind in point of time.
There is an even more serious defect in the language of the Bill; there is nothing whatever to connect the fact that

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the woman had not recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child with the, commission of the offence. In other words, the Bill, as it is at present drafted, does not say whether the nature of the ailment from which the woman is suffering is such as to have deflected her will, her realisation of what is right and what is wrong, or her capacity for distinguishing between what is right and what is wrong. The clause simply says that if a woman has, in fact, not wholly recovered she may be convicted of manslaughter. In other words, if she is suffering from some minor indisposition which might easily be continued for some months and commits murder, whether her indisposition has clouded or impaired her power of distinguishing right from wrong or not, the jury may give this direction.
I make these observations from a prima facie examination of the words of the Bill because I think it right that my noble and learned friend, who is, of course, extremely competent to consider the cogency, if there be cogency, of these objections, may apply his mind to them between now and the Committee stage. I have already made it plain that I think there is a case for legislation, and I am far from desiring to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

JURIES BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order).
JURIES BILL. [H.L.]

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
  Clause 1, page 2, line 44, after ("county") insert ("and to the registration officer")
  Clause 1, page 3, line 8, at end insert ("Provided that the foregoing provision shall not apply in relation to the registration officer of a registration area other than the area in which the claim was made, or in any case where the person whose claim was allowed has subsequently changed his place of residence")
  Clause 1, page 4, line 16, after ("Act") insert. ("or wilfully marks as a juror, or as a special juror, in any electors' list any person who ought not to be so marked").
  Clause 3, page 5, line 25, leave out ("if the court or judge so require").
  Clause 8, page 8, line 14, at end insert ("and that a woman who is a vowed member of a religious order living in a convent or other religious community shall not be marked as a juror and shall not, although included in the jurors book, be liable to serve on any jury").
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the Amendments which the Commons have presented for your Lordships' consideration have been examined by me, and I am able to advise your Lordships that they may be accepted without impairing the objects of the Bill. Many of them, in fact, though not of the first importance, are, I think, improvements, and therefore, unless any noble Lord wishes to raise any particular point, it may not be inconvenient if I move that the Commons Amendments en, bloc be agreed to.
  Moved, That the Commons Amendments be agreed to.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE. EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, this is a very short Bill and perhaps needs only one word of explanation. The principal Act of 1918 provided that the qualifying period for the spring register should end on January 15, and the register come in force three months later. The dates for the autumn register were July and October 15. This gave only three months for preparing the Register. Experience has shown that this was insufficient, and that four months were necessary in which to do the work, and it has been usual by Orders in Council to extend the period to four months. The emergency powers under which these Orders in Council were made expire a year after the termination of the war—that is to say, next August—and consequently legislation is necessary if the alteration is to be continued.
  The dates in the Schedule of the Bill are those which have been in operation under these Orders in Council. They have all been settled by conferences of the various Government Departments concerned and other authorities, including the chief political organisations, and it has been found that they are the dates which cause the least inconvenience. The dates for Northern Ireland are those suggested by that Government, but, of course, they can be modified, if necessary, by local legislation.

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  Clause 2 is introduced in order to effect a small economy. At the present moment, under the Local Government Act, 1888, when application is made for alteration of an electoral division in England and Wales, it is obligatory to have a local inquiry. This may be an expensive matter, and under this clause power is given to the Secretary of State, if there is no opposition, to dispense with that inquiry. This clause follows the principal Act of 1888 in applying only to England and Wales.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FRAUD AND FALSIFICATION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Bill is another step towards the completion of criminal law codification. It is highly technical, and it is not proposed to trouble the House with its details at the present time. If the House is prepared to give it a Second Reading, I shall propose that it be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will now move that the Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

INDIAN HIGH COURT BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.
EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP had given Notice to call attention to the working of the Safeguarding of Industries Act; and to move a Resolution. The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Resolution which I beg leave to move on the question of the Safe-guarding
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of Industries Act runs in the following terms—
"That as the Safeguarding of Industries Act interferes with trade and increases prices, this House is of opinion that it should be repealed forthwith."
Your Lordships will notice that this is divided into two parts, one of which declares that the Act interferes with trade, and the other that it increases prices. With regard to the increase of prices, it is not necessary for me to offer any evidence to your Lordships. The Minister of Health, speaking, I think, in another place in the debate on the Second Reading, declared that the Bill would, of course, raise prices; that the object of the Bill was to increase prices.
I shall therefore devote such remarks as I shall venture to trouble your Lordships with this evening to that part of the question which deals with interference with trade. May I say, in the first place, that we who are Free Traders have always felt that there were two lines of defence? First of all, there was the theoretical line. We always believed that the people of this country would, on the merits of the arguments which were submitted to them, refuse to accept Protection. Under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, however, in various directions, and under certain clauses in the Budget from time to time, various methods of Protection have been adopted, and now we are forced back in connection with these Duties to the second line of defence, which is to show how it interferes with trade—the essential badness of these Duties once they are imposed.
In the first place, I wish to complain of the method by which, under this Act, Inquiries are conducted by the Board of Trade. The rules of the Board of Trade provide that although counsel may appear and may address the Committee no questions may be put to any witness except by members of the Committee. Your Lordships will realise, of course, that in an Inquiry into any special trade persons connected with that trade are not members of the Committee, and therefore the Committee come to it as to a strange matter, of which they have no special knowledge. Therefore, they are at sonic disadvantage in putting questions upon highly technical and abstruse points. But that is not all. The ordinary rules of evidence are in abeyance, and there is no cross-

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examination of witnesses, which makes the evidence of a somewhat partial kind.
The various Chairmen behave in different ways. One Chairman always takes the line that no question whatever may be asked by counsel appearing in opposition to a Duty, either directly or through a member of the Committee. Another Chairman is always prepared to put a question on behalf of interested parties who are not allowed to ask questions for themselves. Another variation in the procedure is that while one Chairman interprets the rule that applicants may give evidence in confidence so rigidly that the opponents of Duties are kept in complete ignorance of the case presented secretly to the Committee by those applying for protection, another Chairman takes the view that evidence given in confidence cannot be treated as of equal value with evidence laid open for reply by the opponents, and many documents originally intended to be treated as confidential have as a consequence been handed in openly and subjected to examination. It is very inconvenient to applicants, and still more to those who object to the imposition of Duties, not really to know what are the circumstances in which they are expected to conduct their cases.
It is not surprising in circumstances such as these that there should be some very remarkable instances of delay and interference. Attention has been drawn to a number of them from time to time in the Press, and I have a certain collection here of which I shall give your Lordships a few examples. There was one of a consignment of electric lamps, in which the tungsten was dutiable. A man who went to the docks to arrange for the clearance was kept nearly the whole day. He paid 5s. clearance and had to leave a deposit of£1, and the Duty was fixed at the enormous figure of one penny. Then there were five cases of toys which were held up for six weeks because they contained two dutiable articles of the value of 1s. each. A Newcastle importer, who had paid Reparations Duty on dolls' heads on October 18, was still waiting on November 2 to pay Is. 8d. tax on glass eyes. Meanwhile, he had to pay for storage and other charges. A case that attracted considerable attention was that of the Phillips Chemical Company, who imported milk of magnesia from America. The first consignment arrived at Southampton on October 3, and it was stopped for analysis of samples.
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After a month's delay it was found that the cases had not been opened, and that no samples had reached London. A member of the firm who inquired at Somerset House was sent to the laboratory, Clement's Inn, where nothing was known of the samples. Meanwhile, further consignments had arrived, and the goods were not released until£650 was deposited, although the Tax could not be more than£5.
We know how this part of the Bill, which was designed to protect the key industries of this country, seems to have been directed chiefly against children's toys. It is a matter of notorious amusement on the part of those interested in the question that time after time toys which are designed for the use of children are particularly subject to taxation. There was a package of fishpond games which was released on payment of a deposit of 2s. When the formalities were completed the package was lost. Then there was the case of face powder being shut out, and the case of toy magnets, and a further case of children's paints being held up because they were suspected of harbouring aniline dyes. There was also the case of the teddy bears. Teddy bears which have a squeak are liable to the Tax, but those with no squeak are free of Duty. Then we have the French toy bagpipes, which were stated to be subject to the Tax, whilst German mouth organs were allowed in free. There are a number of other ridiculous anomalies with which I will not waste your Lordships' time.
Towards the end of last year a Government concession was announced on the dutiable ingredients in toys. Where they did not exceed 10 per cent. of the whole value of the toy they were to be free, but of course that means that dolls' eyes, fishpond hooks, and the various materials brought in to make up toys in this country, are still liable to Tax. It shows how the raw material of one industry may be made subject to taxation, and how manufacture in this country is thereby impeded. I am sure we should all agree with the harassed President of the Beard of Trade who stated on one occasion that it was not always easy to say where an article begins and ceases to be a toy.
The Board of Trade was particularly unfortunate, I think, in regard to the first two cases submitted to the Committees which were appointed under the Act. The first was, of course, the santonine

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case. In regard to that chemical you only extract one or two pounds from the whole ton, and the question there was whether the whole ton was to be imported from Russia, or whether the article was to conic into this country ready made up for further manufacture, and it was included in the first instance in the list of the Board of Trade. The referee decided that it was improperly included and the Board of Trade lost their case. They had, of course, briefed very learned counsel and the opponents were equally obliged to spend a considerable amount of money and to find counsel no less distinguished in order to answer those who appeared on behalf of the Board of Trade. There was, therefore, a double waste of money on the part of the Board of Trade and of the manufacturers who appeared.
Then we had the case of gas mantles which was the second case which appeared before the Committee. There they applied that gas mantles should be inserted in the Schedule, although they were not included by the Board of Trade. None of us were surprised that they were not included by the Board of Trade because they had been the special subject of discussion in another place, and it had been stated that as gas mantles were made by a ring who were well able to look after themselves it was quite unnecessary to include them in the list of key industries. In spite of this the referee, an official appointed under the Act of Parliament, proceeded to say that these gas mantles should in certain respects be included in the lists. It seems to me a somewhat new principle that officials appointed under the authority of Parliament should have the power to overrule the decisions of Parliament itself. It was a long hearing, and the National Gas Council were very much opposed, but in the end the referee decided that, while the gas mantles should not be specifically mentioned in the list, mechanical compounds of nitrate of thorium and cerium forming mantles or parts of mantles used in incandescent lighting, should appear therein. I believe that what happens is that in those circumstances the amount liable to taxation is something like 1s. per gross. That, again, is a case which was given against the Board of Trade. One almost hopes that they will be more fortunate on future occasions.
Since that time a very interesting case has come up, called the case of mucic acid.
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It is interesting for this reason, that it was included on the ground that it was a fine chemical. Since the time when the Act was passed by Parliament a new method of manufacturing mucic acid has come into operation, and now mucic acid has become a heavy chemical. And vet., although everybody agrees that it is a heavy chemical, which can be turned out in very large quantities at a very much lower price than used to be charged, the Board of Trade and this Committee have no power to remove it from the list in the Schedule, and it still remains a fine chemical. I mention that as an interesting case because it shows how science day by day is making what are the key industries of to-day perhaps something wholly useless for the same purpose to-morrow. And the things which during the war may have been, and indeed were, of importance to us, will in the next war be of no use whatever. It is a good example of that argument which I think Free Traders have often addressed to the Government.
I turn now to the case of fabric gloves—a case to which no doubt the noble Lord who replies for His Majesty's Government expects me to refer. This is a matter upon which we are all anxiously waiting to know what the Board of Trade will decide, and if the noble Lord can throw any light upon the matter I am sure that we shall be very much interested. The Committee has decided that fabric gloves should be subject to a Duty, but the Board of Trade, after a long hesitation, is hesitating still. I will explain to your Lordships why that hesitation should be so prolonged. Evidence was given, although under the rules of the Board of Trade it was not allowed to stand as evidence, that the German fabric gloves are made entirely from fine yarn, spun for the most part in British mills. The material is spun in England, and sent out to Germany, where it is made into fabric gloves, and then sent back to this country. Lancashire supplies 90 per cent. of the yarn for the world's glove-making industry. Ten large firms in Manchester, sixteen in London, two in Glasgow, and nine other firms in different parts of the country, representing scores of millions of capital, signed a protest objecting strongly to the inclusion of the glove industry within the protection of the Safeguarding of Industries Act.
I should like to read your Lordships some of the evidence which was given by Mr. Wilkinson, the salesman of the Swan

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Lane Spinning Company of Bolton. He said they had 332,000 spindles, employing 900 hands in turning out 60,000 lbs. of cotton per week. Of that, 70 per cent. was used as glove fabric and sent to Germany. There were 500 firms making gloves in Saxony, and one firm alone took 50,000 lbs. of yarn per annum from one mill in Bolton which meant from£100,000 to£120,000 per annum. While perhaps 2,000 hands at most were employed here in making fabric gloves, some 10,000 Bolton operatives earned their bread by making the raw material which was used by Germany, in order that the fabric gloves may come back here again. It was shown that we should lose the profits of a very considerable glove re-export trade if imports were discouraged by a tariff. Your Lordships will understand, from evidence of that kind, how anxious we are to know exactly what will be the line which will be taken by the Board of Trade, and whether they will come down definitely on the Protectionist or Free Trade side of the hedge on which they now find themselves.
There was another case to which I think I should refer, concerning the action of the Board of Trade in allowing an Inquiry to be made into the question of baths. This was an application made by the British Light Castings Association which had been condemned by the Standing Committee on Trusts. The finding of that Committee was as follows—
"We are of opinion that the powers of an Association which wields such monopolistic control over an industry are so open to abuse as to make it a menace to the community: and we urge that such combinations should be brought under the surveillance of some Department of State."
There was a moment when this Light Castings Association tried to force up the price of baths in this country, and they succeeded in taking it up to 70s. Then there was a large importation of baths from Germany which brought down the price to 16s. That shows the amount of money which was, I assert, improperly made by this trust; and it makes it the more surprising that the Board of Trade should have allowed these people to bring a case, which they must have known, from the Report of the Standing Committee on Trusts, was such a bad case, before any Committee set up under this Act. It is true that the case was dismissed by the referee, and that they have not been
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allowed to enjoy the protection of the 33⅓ per cent. Duty.
The question of the revenue is a point upon which I wish to make one comment. From October I last year to March 25 the total amount of the Duty collected was£134,235, and that includes the amounts which were paid by France, Italy, Belgium, Switzerland the United States, and Japan. And your Lordships, who will remember the discussion which took place before the introduction of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, will no doubt recall how often we were told that it was introduced in order to carry out the Paris Resolutions, the object of which was that the Alliance should be prepared to fight against the Central Powers. It is almost inconceivable in such circumstances that of the£134,235 collected as Duties, in order that the Allies might fight the Central Powers, no less than£54,000 has been paid by those who were our Allies during the war. It shows how far the Act fails in carrying out such an idea.
Then there is another point upon which I think we are entitled to make considerable complaint. Your Lordships will have heard that a certain number of goods have been removed from the list, and Duties were paid upon those goods from the time when the Act became effective. These goods, which were originally upon the list, were afterwards removed upon the ground that, in the opinion of the referee, the Board of Trade had improperly included them upon the list of articles, which should be made subject to a Duty. One would imagine that it would be almost a common act of justice that money improperly collected from these importers should be returned to then. The President of the Board of Trade refuses to do it and, as I understand, he says be has no power to do anything of the kind. I do not know that it would be easy to find a greater example of injustice than that money collected under regulations improperly framed by the Board of Trade, should be retained for the benefit of His Majesty's Government and the revenue of the country and not be returned to the people who paid it in such circumstances as those.
I wish also to draw further attention to the case which is made by the British Chemical Trade Association, and I do it for this special reason. Your Lordships who are familiar with this controversy will

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know how common it is for those of us who are Free Traders to be told that we are only theoretical people, that business men are all anxious to have Protection, and that it is only because we ourselves live in a world apart from the common affairs of men that we are anxious for Free Trade. Therefore, a manifesto such as that to which I venture to call your Lordships' attention now is of particular value. It is issued by the British Chemical Trade Association and was printed during the current month. That Association makes the following statements, amongst others—
"The Act is not even consistent, as it allows the importation duty free of many products which are manufactured in this country, whilst it penalises products not made here.
"The Key Section bristles with anomalies. It allows in free certain products made by one process. Identical products made by another method are taxed 33⅓ per cent. on importation. The products of both processes are identical in every way and are used for the same purposes and indistinguishable by analysis."
The following instances are given of the way in which business is now carried on and of the difficulties which arise in carrying it on—
"A firm desired to import 1 cwt. of salicylic acid, physiologically pure. It is not made in the United Kingdom, but importation is prohibited, except under licence, by the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Act, 1920, and is also liable to 33⅓per cent. duty on importation under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921. It took the firm two months to obtain the necessary licence from the Dyestuffs Licensing Committee (who control the importation of this product which is used)—"
for the purpose not of dyes but of making ointments.
"It was seized by Customs who levied the 33⅓ per cent. tax and a further 20 per cent. under the Reparation Act. After about three months, during which time innumerable letters were written to the various Government Departments concerned, the firm obtained this small quantity of material worth about£8 that is not made in the United Kingdom."
In those circumstances I think I may venture to say that my claim that this Act interferes with trade is fully made out.
The only notice which I think His Majesty's Government have taken so far of the many complaints which have reached them from business men, practical men, is to say that the Act is not to be repealed, as we would wish it to be and as is suggested in my Motion, but that its working should be amended. That is not a suggestion which will appeal, I hope, to the
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majority of your Lordships' House. Certainly if these are examples of the working method of Protection, we have every reason to desire that when once the people and the manufacturers of this country realise what it means they will be all the less ready to adopt any such system on a large scale in the country. Even on the small scale on which it exists now, I hope that what I have said has been sufficient to show your Lordships that the terms of my Motion are fully justified. I, therefore, beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That as the Safeguarding of Industries Act interferes with trade and increases prices, this House is of opinion that it should be repealed forthwith.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I have no desire to cover any of the ground which has been so well traversed in the powerful speech of my noble friend, Earl Beauchamp. I merely wish to touch on one aspect of the question which, as some of your Lordships may or may not remember, I have already dealt with in the past—that is to say, the point of view of science and education, and the interference which they encounter from the Act; and from the manner in which the Act is worked. My noble friend has in general terms described this Act as an experiment which has failed, and it is only on one side that I wish to develop his argument in the same sense. I may remind your Lordships that in August of last year, when the Bill was before the House, I moved an Amendment to except from the operation of the Bill, as it then was, articles of importation for educational or scientific purposes, and the noble Viscount, now Secretary of State for India, who was at that time in charge of the Bill, fully admitted the strength of the case which some of us advanced, although he was not able to meet us by amending the Bill.
Later on, in the course of the autumn session, on November 10, I called attention to the effect of this Act and of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act in the same year. At that time the noble Viscount, Lord Peel, said that the Reparation Act was working perfectly smoothly, but he engaged to consult the Board of Education in order to see whether anything could be done, admitting, as he did, that there was a possibility of hardship on the educational side. The result was that a joint Inquiry

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took place between the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and a number of scientific teachers who were deeply concerned. How far that discussion and conference has led to an amelioration of the position so far as scientific institutions are concerned I am not prepared to say; perhaps the noble Lord opposite, who is himself so deeply interested in this aspect of the question, may be able to tell us something on that point. The fact remains that there still exist considerable disabilities from the point of view of those who are engaged in the teaching of science and in scientific inquiry.
I venture, therefore, in order not to take up too much of your Lordships' time, to read an extract from a letter which was received by a distinguished scientific man, who had complained of the long delay which was occupied in the repair of an important instrument necessary for his particular inquiry, which he had sent for that purpose. The manufacturers replied in the following terms (and this is an extract from their letter)—
"If one of your small technical instruments has to be sent to Germany to be repaired, since the Key Industries Bill became operative, it has to undergo the following procedure—"
that is to say, the procedure for obtaining any small goods by parcel post from Germany. I would, therefore, ask your Lordships to remember that although in this particular case it was a scientific instrument that is involved, something of the same kind would happen in a great number of other cases which would not come under the head with which I am particularly dealing at this moment.
The firm go on to say—
"We first make application for a Customs officer to call here to identify the instrument, which is packed in his presence for despatch. We pay the Customs 38 6d. an hour for his attendance. It is then despatched to Germany, and we presume it takes three or four days to repair. An application has then to be made in Germany for an export permit, which usually takes fourteen to twenty-one days to procure. It is then sent by parcels post to England, and usually takes twelve days. We have a case here in point. A parcel sent off on March 6 arrived in London on the 18th. We are notified by the Customs that it has arrived in London ten days later, on the 28th March, and the enclosed series of documents are sent to us to be filled in. We then make personal application at Mount Pleasant Post Office, and after interviewing three to four days individuals we pay 26 per cent. reparation duty, and 33 per cent. key industry duty, and after the lapse of another three or four days we get delivery
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of the repair. The total time taken in repairing the article is probably three to four days, the time taken in transit to and fro from six to eight weeks, and this is called national trade progress."
As I stated, this particular instance is the case of a scientific instrument which had to be repaired in Germany, but a very large part of that procedure would apply to a great many other articles.
I would point out once more that it is not merely a question, in the case of these men of science, of people who are working for purposes of abstract knowledge, even though, as we know, abstract inquiry may lead to results most valuable in application to industry, but a great many of these inquiries are directly concerned with the improvements of industrial processes, and it becomes a question for the House to consider whether it is worth while; and whether, by all the elaborate procedure under this Act, you are not doing as much harm to industry on the one hand as you hope you may be doing good on the other by encouraging in this country the manufacture of a certain number of articles which in the past, for one reason or another, have not been made here. I will not detain the House any longer, but I shall certainly support the Motion of my noble friend.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, I hope I may have the indulgence of your Lordships' House in attempting to reply to the two powerful speeches to which we have just listened, in the first place because I have not hitherto been familiar with what, earlier this afternoon, was described as the age-long contest on the subject which is the basis of the Bill; and, secondly, because of the wording which the noble Earl used in placing his Motion before the House. It was not until an hour ago that I had any communication of the exact Resolution which the noble Earl was intending to move. I knew no more than that he was going to call attention to the working of the Act, and he has done so with a blend of sarcasm and detail as to which I find it very difficult to follow him. But I cannot agree that the wording which was applied to his case by the noble Marquess—that he had proved that this was an experiment which had failed—can really be justified. I confess that it was not until I began to inquire into the working of this Act for the purpose of replying to the noble Earl that I realised the extent of the friends which this Act still has. It seems to me that it is viewed in two

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entirely different ways, some critics saying that it goes much too far, and others that it does not go nearly far enough, and very often, when criticism is directed towards anything from two mutually destructive quarters, it may be hoped that the middle of the road has safety in it.
I should not like to pretend that I view this Act as one of the greatest that was ever passed, but at the same time I think we are entitled to look at its origin. I do not propose to refer—they have been referred to on previous occasions—to the Paris Resolutions, which were briefly mentioned by the noble Earl, because it seems to me that, dispassionately considered, they were obviously directed against our enemies, and had in view that problem only. At the same time, they did bring various problems to light from the experience of the war, and they did lead up directly to Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee. I think one can find in the conclusions come to by that Committee, presided over by one of the eminence and the known opinions of the late noble Lord, a basis for the principles of this Act. The Committee came directly to the conclusion (in the first part of paragraph 254) that the producers of this country are entitled to require from the Government that they should be protected in their own market against dumping. That is the basis of Part II of this Act. When the noble Lord calls attention to the working of the Act I presume he excepts from his speech Part II, because, as he is no doubt well aware, no Order has yet been made under that Part, and I could not quite understand, in listening to him, whether that in itself was a subject of complaint. I should have thought that, if the noble Earl is asking your Lordships to repeal the whole Act, he would have been glad, and would have even commended the Government for not having put into operation so far one-half of the Act.
It must, of course, be clearly recognised that whether tariff or safeguarding be good or bad for different industries, at any rate uncertainty is bad. I think the President of the Board of Trade, in another place, very pointedly expressed his own sense of that truth, and one can appreciate the desire of everyone to know, to use the words of the noble Earl, on which side of the hedge the Board of Trade are going to come in such a matter, for example, as that of fabric gloves. I wish I could enlighten him. He correctly stated the
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position with regard to the Report—a matter, as I think he admitted, of considerable difficulty on which, at any rate, it is obvious that there are two diametrically opposed interests. I cannot say more to your Lordships than that the decision on this matter is engaging the very earnest attention of the Government, and it is hoped the decision may be announced in a short time.
The actual state of Part II, which I should mention in view of the assumption of interference of trade, is that there have been fourteen complaints referred to Committees, one or two of which are expected to be dealt with very shortly; twenty-one have been made and rejected on the ground that a prima facie case was not made out, and there are twelve more pending further inquiry. Roughly speaking, about one hundred trades, or branches of trades, have entered into communication with the Board of Trade in connection with this part of the Act. It may fairly be said that not more than one-half have reached the stage at which they can be regarded as formal complaints; they are only in the nature of inquiries. Seven reports have been made up to the end of March last. The noble Earl dealt with some of them in detail, but I need not travel over that ground again. It is much to be hoped that a decision on each will be no longer delayed.
The greater part of the noble Earl's speech was directed to that part of the Act which is in operation—namely, the key industry part. I think the noble Marquess asked whether, in view of the facts alleged, it was really worth while. I must remind your Lordships of the origin of that part of the Act. I think, if time allowed, that every heading in the Schedule of the Act could have its national importance proved by reference to the lessons of the war. The conclusion, definitely come to by the late Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee, was that such industries as had been described as key or pivotal should be maintained in this country at all hazards and at any expense, words which are as strong as they could be made. The Report also said—
"No ordinary economic rules apply to the situation of these minor but important industries. They must be kept alive by loans, by subsidies, by tariffs, or by Government contracts, or, in the last event, by Government manufacture."
It must be admitted that when the Act came into operation the conditions of

457
trade were entirely abnormal, and more especially abnormal in respect of those articles covered by the Schedule. All of them were of importance to the nation from the point of view of war, and very great stocks had been accumulated in this country at the time of the Armistice.
Further, at the time of the passing of the Act there set in a period of great trade depression, and at the same time foreign competition was very acute owing to the efforts of foreign manufacturers to recover the ground they had lost during the war. The evidence at my disposal goes to show that this Act has, at any rate, done much to encourage manufacturers in this country, not only to hold on to the position they had precariously won but also to undertake new developments. Let me read the testimony of one old-established firm of chemical manufacturers writing at the end of last year. They say—
"For many months our factories were working short time. Had we been ruthless we should long ago have sacked large numbers of our people, but we had not the heart to do so, and as an alternative, having got rid of the minimum number possible, we kept all the rest going on short time.—As a result of the passing of the Act we have been able to put our factories on full time, and re-engage practically all the hands we had been compelled to dismiss. We have found it possible to set to work on research and experimental work on a number of new chemical products which we believe can now be profitably developed in this country under the protection of the Act. Without such protection it would simply not be worth while to go into them as the Germans would most certainly have swamped us as soon as we had developed anything which they saw was in the least profitable. Some of these new products may turn out to be saleable on a very large scale, with an automatic increase of employment for more workpeople. Several important articles, the manufacture of which we had taken up during the war, we almost certainly would have been compelled to drop as competition from France and Germany was becoming very acute, but now we are not only enabled to keep them on but are actually increasing our plant."
I will trouble your Lordships with only one other report from another firm. They say—
"The first effect of the passing of this Act upon us as makers of fine chemicals was to establish confidence. Projects which had been hanging fire owing to the doubt which existed whether the Government would or would not actually give the necessary assistance to the immature fine chemical industry were proceeded with when the Bill became an Act. We have undertaken the manufacture of a Lumber of additional chemical substances since the Act was passed, and in many cases these are already on the market; in others—and this refers more to large scale manufa.cture—plant is in process of
458
erection and will shortly be working. We have three additional buildings at present in course of erection, two of them approaching completion. We are employing additional chemists, skilled workmen, process workers, and labourers. Both as regards research and as regards actual manufacture we have new work in hand which would not have been commenced but for the passing of the Act."
There are many ether reports to the same effect, but I think those two extracts are sufficient to show that at any rate the Act has been beneficial in increasing employment and enabling new and struggling chemical industries to be developed. It is putting it too strongly to speak of the Act as an experiment which has failed.
The noble Earl, in his speech, drew attention to another point of importance—namely, the question of costs—but he has, I think, begged the question in his Resolution. The noble Marquess also drew attention to this with regard to educational institutions. I confess that were it proved that the passing of this Act had resulted, and would continue to result, in an increase of the cost of instruments to such institutions my cordial sympathy would be aroused. I said "would still result," because I think it must be remembered that the Act has not been in 'operation a long time, and like most measures dealing with industry it must take some time before its full effect can be felt. Its main object is the development and encouragement of our own manufactures. It may be that in the initial stages there will be difficulties which will not be found later on, but even now, as far as the information of the Government goes, only in a few instances has the passage of the Act resulted in an increase of price. There is evidence to the contrary, and a number of chemical manufacturers have deliberately reduced their prices in order to take advantage of the Act and create a demand. That applies not only to chemical manufactures, but also to certain classes of scientific instruments and scientific glass ware.
Another factor which must be remembered in connection with costs is that if by reducing their costs foreign manufacturers had been enabled to flood this country with these goods, and had prevented the development of manufactures here, it is practically certain that when that process had been effected the prices of the foreign goods would be immediately and substantially raised. It is true that there is still a good deal of what one might almost call prejudice against certain goods of

459
British manufacture which, as was so pointedly shown in the war, had for a long time passed into the hands of foreign countries, but it is also undoubted that very great progress is now being made, and that the quality of some of the scientific goods made by British manufacturers is undergoing a marked improvement.
For example, the British making of optical glass is now reaching a very high grade indeed, and I may perhaps be allowed to read a short extract on that subject from the Report last year of the National Physical Laboratory. It says—
"The manufacture of volumetric glassware was practically non-existent in this country prior to the war. During and since the war it has been developed on an extensive scale. Unfortunately many users of volumetric apparatus believe that the accuracy of British apparatus is inferior to that of German origin. From our experience at the National Physical Laboratory we are in a position to know that apparatus of British manufacture which has passed our tests is at least as good as any similar standard apparatus of German origin."
After describing certain comparative tests the Report states—
"The results for the German apparatus clearly show that such apparatus cannot be accepted on trust, as many users appear to imagine.…The ordinary grade German apparatus has no claim to superior accuracy as compared with ordinary grade British apparatus."
That, so far as it goes, cannot be regarded as other than highly satisfactory.
The noble Earl devoted certain passages, with considerable sarcasm and much humour, to the inconvenience and delays which had been caused by this Act at the Customs. There again I should like to preface my remarks by pointing out that the Act has not been in operation a long time, and that it was inevitable that its start Meant the filling up of forms and certain other formalities which were obviously inconvenient and, no doubt, caused delay. But this is inseparable from the initiation of any such measure, and is not necessarily bound up in any state subsequent to that initiation. The noble Earl made considerable play with the question of dolls' eyes and toys. They have received a great deal of prominence, possibly not unduly, but at any rate a prominence which came to an end, as the noble Earl then went on to point out, on January 1 of this year. It is true, as he stated, that if anyone brought in as separate articles some of those goods to which he referred as ingredients, they would still be dutiable,
460
but I am informed that the Treasury Order which he mentioned, regarding goods which do not contain more than 10 per cent. of the total value in a dutiable form, has very greatly simplified the working of the Act. He gave instances of congestion and of delay. All I can say is that at the present moment there are very few complaints, and, certainly speaking from the point of view of London, there is no congestion at all. That is a state which one may confidently hope has passed away.
The noble Earl then dealt with some of the cases which had been heard as the result of complaints. There have been nine decided cases in all. The noble Earl drew attention with great force to some of the difficulties, but it is a fact that three cases only have been decided contrary to the Board, while five have been definitely decided in favour of it. One case is still outstanding. There have been in all ten cases heard by the referees. The point has also been made—I do not remember that the noble Earl actually made it—that very great expenses and delays were incurred by these hearings. Only two of these ten cases have gone beyond two sittings, and three of them occupied only two hours each. The two cases that were of considerable length, and were, no doubt, expensive (though I have no actual details of that) were those of cream of tartar and carbide of calcium. In both these cases it was the complainants who insisted upon having counsel.
I think the noble Earl was slightly in error in saying that the Board of Trade brought a formidable array of counsel, and that then the complainant, unless he wished to lose his case, was equally obliged to go to a similar expense. That has not been the procedure of the Board of Trade. They have not had counsel wherever complainants have been willing to waive their introduction. They have taken the view that if the complainants are ready to state a case the Board will do the same, and the responsibility for making a complaint an expensive and lengthy affair rests therefore with the complainants rather than with the Board. In regard to the expenses of the Act as a whole, it is, perhaps, one of the few measures which have entailed no extra staff in the Ministry or Department which is carrying it out—though it has naturally meant a great deal of extra work—and only a very few additional people at the Customs.

461
The noble. Earl all the time referred to this question from the point of Free Trade and Protection, as if it were almost a test. I should just like to conclude by saying one or two words upon that. I submit that it is not really a question, so far at any rate as Part I is concerned, of different principles, but rather of a dispute as to the application of the same principles. I base that observation to sonic extent upon certain words which fell from my noble friend, Lord Emmott, on the Second Reading of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill on August 15 last, when, speaking of the part of the Bill which relates to key industries, he said—
"There is no controversy on protection. I do not contest that point at all. I am perfectly certain the country wants it, and demands it. Our only conflict is as to the best method of giving it."
There will also be within the recollection of everyone who has followed this question the support given to the whole principle of defending these pivotal industries by the late Lord Moulton, who throughout his life was an advocate, if ever there was one, of Free Trade. A further example of my contention might be found in some words spoken by Mr. Runciman in another place in January, 1916, where he said we were placed at a great disadvantage and that never again should that happen.
Surely, it is agreed by everyone that there are certain industries the existence of which must be in the national interest, and which the experience and lessons of the war show that we should safeguard and as far as possible encourage their development. The dispute, it seems to me, is not so much upon that, but upon which industries should be selected and the means which should be adopted. The question of which should be selected was very thoroughly thrashed out by Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee, and I think that if one takes out article by article in the Schedule one could show that each bears an importance quite out of all proportion to its size from the point of view of national interest, and that though it may be quite true that in a future war those would not be the articles of first national importance, nevertheless, as Lord Moulton knew, one must encourage the building up of great chemical industries so as to have the chemists, who could then be turned on to the solution of any new industrial problems which arose. As to the method, I submit that the evidence which
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I have endeavoured to lay before your Lordships shows that even in the short time it has been in operation a great success has attended, and may be expected still more to attend, the working of Part I of this Act, and I hope your Lordships will not accept the Resolution of my noble friend.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, debates of this kind frequently end in a common form. Someone speaks in support of the Motion, expresses his appreciation of the courtesy and skill of the noble Lord who replies for the Government, and his profound disappointment at the small success that the Motion appears capable of achieving. I do not feel inclined to depart from the common form in the few observations which I propose to make. I certainly can express sincerely my appreciation of the courtesy and. skill of the noble Lord who has just spoken, and something more. He is the first man, speaking for the Government, who has had the candour and the courage to say what was the true effect of the Paris Resolutions, and when it is remembered how widely and systematically those Resolutions have been misrepresented, sometimes through ignorance and sometimes through deliberation, throughout the country, the noble Lord will understand how thoroughly we on this side of the House appreciate what he has said.
The real case made by the noble Earl against this Act may be summarised under three heads. He says, first of all, that it does in fact interfere with industry in this country; secondly, that it does raise the price of a number of very important commodities; and, thirdly, that its operation is discriminative and therefore peculiarly objectionable to people who hold Free Trade doctrines. The noble Lord, as I understand him, replies, first of all, that all our objections must be swept on one side because this Act was dictated by the necessities of the last war, and is intended to put us in a position to prepare for the next. Now I have always thought that if the ecomonic and domestic policy of this country is to be regulated chiefly with the object of seeing how we can resist the next attack that is made upon our liberties, this country will be destroyed from within before it is attacked from without; and I am bound to say that if you are looking for the pivotal industries, meaning thereby industries the protection of which will be essential to enable you to maintain a pro-

463
longed struggle against your enemy, I say in the presence of Lord Chaplin, whose presence here we are glad to note, that the first thing you will have to protect is food. It is beyond all things the pivot upon which any future war must hang, and is there anyone beyond Lord Chaplin who would advocate on a public platform, with any chance of success, that food in this country should be subjected to a protective Duty? We know it is impossible for this simple reason, that although the Government attempted to do it in a most insidious and, as I thought, most dangerous form, the measure had not been on the Statute Book for six months before they were bound to repeal it.
I am bound to say that I regard this argument with regard to pivotal industries as one which is entirely unconvincing. You have to decide what is the pivot, and whether it is going to be the pivot on which the next event is going to hang, and you have to put that in the hands of a number of people who, with the best will in the world, are no more gifted with foresight than are the rest of us, who are quite unable to decide which these industries are. If you regard as pivotal industries the industries which are essential to the vitalisation of all other industries in the country, it is obvious that the more you raise the price of that commodity the more you must raise the price of all the other industries in the country. That appears to me to be axiomatic. The noble Lord who has answered has said that this Act, so far as he can see, in certain cases has riot raised the price. I am utterly unable to understand how any Bill which imposes 33⅓per cent. upon the importation of articles sold here in competition with our home products can possibly fail to raise prices. It was, indeed, stated when the Act was introduced in another place that that was its very object, and of course it must be its object if it is really going to seek to build up a tariff wall around industries protected at home. If it fails in that it must fail in the object for which it is introduced, and although it may be possible, in one or two special cases, to show that owing to the fact that competition is not keen or the production here is not great, there has been no material increase in prices, I believe that as a general rule the increase has been very great.
This I know, that two people eminent in the scientific world were recently giving me
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an account of the difficulties which they had to encounter in regard to ordinary laboratory glasses. The increase of expense was immense, and the durability was in comparison far less. I am not complaining of English glass manufacturers, but for sonic reason which it is difficult to know—it may be lack of scientific training or a number of delicate and indefinable causes—English glass is not as durable as the glass made in Austria and Germany and Bavaria before the war. I believe that the wisest thing to do is to import the glass which you can use. When the noble Lord told us—and the House, I am sure, heard it with great delight—the story of the chemical manufacturer who had been able to maintain his factory because of the protection that this Act afforded him, he did not really go to the root of the matter. What you have to see is not really what has happened to that factory, but what has happened to the other industries that depend upon the output of that factory for their life.
The real difference between a Free Trader and a man who believes in this form of discriminative Protection is just this: that the Free Trader insists upon looking at the whole of the industries of this country as one. He will not consider taking them one by one and seeing what you can do to protect each of those industries. He looks with a broad glance, and he says that if you take a particular trade and point out that that trade might be encouraged and the number of people permanently engaged in it increased by putting a tariff wall about its products, you have not proved your case. You have not shown, when you have done that, that you have not even more gravely interfered with other industries and thrown even more men out of work. You have to expand your survey before you make any such answer as that, and that is what I should say to the noble Lord with regard to his chemical industry. I do not know sufficient about the industries which are engaged in using the products of that particular factory, but I should be much surprised if you could find a manufacturer who would not tell you that, if he could only cheapen the basis of manufacture today, not only would he be able to sell here at a lower price, but he would be able to face this fierce destructive foreign competition which we now have to meet, and which partly prevents us from selling our goods in neutral markets.

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I wish to say one or two words about the Committee set up to examine into the particular industries that need protection. I imagine there is hardly a single industry in this country that would not tell you it wanted to be protected. It is human nature, and human nature does not change, whether in industry or anywhere else, and therefore I imagine that all of them think they are key industries. The only ones that can get the benefit of this Bill—and whether it raises the price of the product or not, the noble Lord himself says it is an enormous advantage to an industry to get within the compass of this protection—are those that can persuade the Committee that they ought to be there. That is the most utterly one-sided and unjustifiable form of Protection that you can introduce, and the form of Protection proposed by Mr. Joseph Chamberlain in 1903, when he wanted a universal tax upon all imports into this country, was immeasurably more just and immeasurably wiser and more sane than such a Protection as this.
And among other reasons for this: all kinds of influence must of necessity be used by the exiled industries in order to get within the gates of the Protective Paradise. They use at the present moment the perfectly legitimate influence of counsel and advocates whom they employ for that purpose. But do you imagine it will stop there? I am sure it will not. I am
Resolved in the negative and Motion disagreed to accordingly.
certain that we have in our Civil Service a body of men as incorruptible as any public servants that ever served the State at any time in the history of the world. But I am also equally certain—and I speak as one who knows something of the way in which patronage is administered, and the pressure and influence brought to bear upon a man who has got patronage at his disposal—I am equally certain you will find, if this Act is maintained indefinitely, as I understand that the Government desire that it should be, that these will be insidious attacks made upon this fortress in order to enable industries to get the enormous advantage that they may secure if they can once get themselves put into the schedule of protected trades. It is a danger to which, everybody knows, the industries in the United States of America have succumbed, and there is no reason why we should imagine that we ourselves should for ever remain superior to the same temptations. I sincerely hope that the noble Earl will pursue his Motion. I think this House owes him a debt of gratitude for enabling us to examine the working of this Act, and I hope that if he presses his Motion to a Division he will he successful in his efforts.
On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?—
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 34; Not-Contents, 36.

CONTENTS.

Crewe, M.

Durham, L. Bp.

Parmoor, L.

Lincolnshire, M. (L. Great Chamberlain.)

Pentland, L.

Anslow, L.

Phillimore, L.

Askwith, L.

Raglan, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Buckmaster, L.

Saye and Sele, L.

Strafford, E.

Chalmers, L.

Southborough, L.

Channing of Wellingborough, L.

Southwark, L.

Allendale, V.

Denman, L. [Teller.]

Stanley of Alderley, L. (L. Sheffield.)

Chelmsford, V.

Emmott, L.

Cowdray, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Swaythling, L.

Devonport, V.

Hemphill, L.

Treowen, L.

Gladstone, V.

Islington, L.

Vernon, L. [Teller.]

Novar, V.

Muir Mackenzie, L.

Wharton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Birkenhead, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Onslow, E.

Desborough, L.

Plymouth, E.

Dynevor, L.

Northumberland, D.

Chaplin, V.

Elphinstone, L.

Sutherland, D.

Long, V.

Erskine, L.

Peel, V.

Faringdon, L.

Ancaster, E.

Gorell, L.

Bradford, E.

Abinger, L.

Hylton, L.

Clarendon, E.

Armaghdale, L.

Lee of Fareham, L.

Eldon, E.

Barrymore, L.

Monckton, L. (V. Galway.)

Fitzwilliam, E.

Brownlow, L.

Somerleyton, L. [Teller.]

Lucan, E.

Charnwood, L.

Stanmore, L. [Teller.]

Malmesburv, E.

Clwyd, L.

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

Midleton, E.

Colebrooke, L.

Wyfold, L.

House abjourned at a quarter before seven o'clock.

MELVILLE TRUST ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a(Lord Stanmore), and reported from the Committee.
BRISTOL TRAMWAYS BILL.
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE AND DERBYSHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL.
STAFFORDSHIRE POTTERIES WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

MORTON'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CARDIFF EXTENSION) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION (TRENT NAVIGATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
LEGAL AND GENERAL ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL. [H.L.]
NEWHAVEN AND SEAFORD WATER BILL. [H.L.]
OSSETT CORPORATION (WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES BILL. [H.L.]
Committee of the Whole House (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off to Wednesday, May 24.
DARTMOUTH HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS (RECONSTITUTION) BILL. [H.L.]
CROYDON GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SHEFFIELD GAS COMPANY BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for Additional Provision in the

London County Council (General Powers) Bill

ought to be dispensed with.
Read, and agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:

Padiham Urban District Council.

Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:

Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 1).

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WOLVERHAMPTON EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off to Tuesday next.
CHESTER GAS BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN Of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 10th of April last and on Wednesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD WATER BILL.
Committees to meet on Tuesday next.
DURHAM COUNTY WATER BOARD BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Tamworth Extension) Bill [H.L.] and other Bills do form a Select Committee for the consideration of the Durham County Water Board Bill; read, and agreed to: All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.