Sitting of 1 March 1922

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, introduced pursuant to the Provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, the Standing Orders, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Grampian Electricity Supply Bill (Substituted Bill).
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Sheffield Gas Company Bill.
Port of London and Midland Railway Bill.
Bills committed.
Private Bill Petitions [Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Chester Gas [Lords].
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Blackburn Corporation Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.
Stock Conversion and Investment Trust (North Western Trust) Bill,
Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Jarrow Extension and Improvement Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.
Newcastle and Gateshead Water Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1920–21.
Copy ordered "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1920–21, showing (1) the receipts and payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1921; (2) the distribution of the capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[Mr. Hilton Young.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SPAIN (COMMERCIAL TREATY).
  Major C. LOWTHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether negotiations are being carried on for the purpose of concluding a commercial treaty with Spain?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): The answer is in the affirmative.
  Major LOWTHER: In view of the fact that the Spanish Government has imposed a very high tariff on imported goods, will the right hon. Gentleman see that negotiations are speeded up in this particular instance so as to avoid, as far as possible, hardship to the British exporters?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I can assure my hon. Friend there is no avoidable delay.

  SLAVE TRADING, ABYSSINIA.
  Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has received during the last 10 years reports which confirm the existence of widespread and growing slave-trading in Abyssinia; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of publishing the most recent of these reports in the form of a Blue Book?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; but I am not sure that the best method of dealing with the matter would be the publication of papers at the present stage.
  Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the published statement that slaves are employed in the British Legation in Abyssinia; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: No slaves are employed by the Legation, but some of the Abyssinian servants at the Legation possess slaves. I am making inquiries into this matter.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    HOME SERVICE, ROSYTH.
    Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that service at Rosyth is classified as home service, steps will be taken to limit the period of service at that base to one year, except in the case of volunteers?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Amery): In view of the large reductions contemplated at Rosyth it is probable that volunteers will be sufficient to meet all requirements. Should this prove not to be the case, the matter will be considered.
    Sir T. BRAMSDON: Is it a fact that men who return from sea service are being sent to Rosyth, and is that not a hardship on them?

    WARRANT WRITES, PORTSMOUTH.
    Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the vacancy which existed in Division II pay office of the Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth, for a commissioned or warrant writer has been filled by the appointment of a senior paymaster lieutenant-commander to that division; and, in view of the fact that the accountant officers now borne for duty in Division II of the Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth, are one paymaster captain, two paymaster lieutenant-commanders, and one paymaster lieutenant, will he state the reasons for such an appointment?
    Mr. AMERY: A paymaster lieutenant-commander has been appointed temporarily in this vacancy, but he will be replaced in the near future by either a commissioned or warrant writer or a paymaster-lieutenant promoted from warrant rank. Such an officer is not for the moment available.

    PROMOTION AND RETIREMENT.
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is yet in a position to make any statement with reference to the promotion of lieutenant-commanders to commanders, and with reference to the special scheme of retirement for officers of the Royal Navy surplus to requirement?
    Mr. AMERY: I regret I am not yet in a position to make the statements referred to.
    Viscount CURZON: When will the hon. Gentleman be in a position to make some announcement about this matter, which is doing great harm to the Navy and causing great anxiety throughout the Service?
    Mr. AMERY: I am anxious to make a statement as soon as possible.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: In view of the fact that some considerable time has elapsed since the hon. Gentleman previously expressed a desire to make a statement, can he not inform the House as to when it will be made? [HON. MEMBERS: "Do it now."]

    H.M.S. "SURPRISE" AND "ALACRITY."
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Commander-in-Chiefs yachts "Surprise" and "Alacrity" are still in commission; if not, when they were paid off; what is the annual cost of these yachts in full commission, including pay of crew and depreciation; and what they are costing at present if not in commission?
    Mr. AMERY: These vessels are at present in commission, but in the interests of economy they are to be paid off and disposed of as soon as practicable. The "Surprise" will be paid off before the end of the month, but it may take somewhat longer to make arrangements for the "Alacrity," which is on the China Station. Allowing for the fall in prices since my reply to the hon. and gallant Member, on the 2nd August last, the approximate cost during the current financial year, including depreciation, is £53,400 for "Alacrity" and £45,700 for "Surprise." The previous figures did not include depreciation.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: What justification is there for keeping these non-fighting ships in commission when there are not sufficient destroyers in commission to give proper training to officers and crews?
    Rear-Admiral Sir R. HALL: Is it not a fact that these Vessels have done very useful service, and have saved large sums of money by being employed instead of larger vessels?
    Mr. AMERY: That is a fact. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy), these vessels have been in constant use for various purposes, and in their absence it might have been necessary to use more expensive and larger vessels. I hope, in each case, they will be replaced in future by sloops which will probably cost less.

    EXECUTIVE OFFICERS.
    Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed, in accordance with the recommendation of the Geddes Committee, to reduce the surplus of executive officers over pre-War
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    numbers, in view of the fact that the Navy is now smaller than before the War?
    Mr. AMERY: Yes, Sir, the number of executive officers will be reduced to a total considerably below the pre-War figure.
    Sir R. HALL: Are we to understand from the hon. Gentleman's reply that the method of reduction recommended by the Geddes Committee is to be adopted?
    Mr. AMERY: No, Sir, certainly not.

    PRIZE MONEY.
    Major Sir B. FALLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if the distribution of prize money in April next will follow precedent and be given in the first place to active ratings and given on application or automatically?
    Mr. AMERY: The exact order in which the final distribution of prize money will be effected has not yet been fixed, but it is hoped to begin the distribution to those no longer in the Service concurrently with the issue to the Fleet. Notice will be given in the Press in due course as to the arrangements generally, and the order in which applications from those demobilised can be received.
    Sir B. FALLE: Does that mean these men will be supplied first?
    Mr. AMERY: No, Sir. That does not necessarily follow.
    Viscount CURZ0N: Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication as to what the amount of each share is likely to be?
    Mr. AMERY: I must ask for notice of that question.

    WRECK, HARWICH HARBOUR.
    Mr. PRETYMANasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the "Marsa," an Admiralty minesweeper, was sunk at Harwich Harbour in November, 1917, by collision with another of His Majesty's ships; that the Admiralty remained responsible for this wreck until 27th August, 1919, when they gave notice of abandonment to the Harwick Harbour Board; that the Admiralty had meantime attempted to raise the vessel and during these operations had

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    broken her back, causing her to become deeply embedded in the shingle and sand; that the Admiralty had also during this period removed all the more valuable fittings by divers; that When, for the safe navigation of the harbour, the harbour board were obliged to remove this wreck at a cost of £1,650, the Admiralty refused to reimburse the harbour board for this outlay, sheltering themselves under the prerogative of the Crown; and will he say why they have departed in this case from the normal practice in making equivalent payment for services rendered as an act of grace?
    The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Commander Eyres-Monsell): As the reply is a lengthy one, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: Cannot the hon. Gentleman give us the nature of the reply, as this is a matter of public importance?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: Should the House desire, I will read the reply.
    HON. MEMBERS: Circulate it.
    The following is the reply proposed:
    The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Notice of the abandonment of the wreck by the Admiralty was given to the Harbour Board on the 27th August, 1919, till when the Admiralty retained their rights as owners. Certain salvage work had been carried out by the Admiralty prior to that date, and some valuable stores and fittings were salved. We have no information at the Admiralty to the effect that the vessel's back was broken during these operations. It may be agreed that the prerogative of the Crown was herein exercised in the sense that any objections to these salvage operations that might have been raised against a private owner by the Harbour Board would not have been permitted. In abandoning the wreck on the 27th August, 1919, however, the Admiralty were exercising the right of any ship owner, and were under no legal liability to contribute to the expense incurred by the Harbour Board for its removal. The question of legal liability does not here depend upon the prerogative. With regard to the last part of the question, the Ad-
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    miralty cannot admit that the Harbour Board were rendering any service to them in removing the wreck, and therefore the question of any equivalent ex gratia grant such as is generally made in collision cases does not arise. In view, however, of the particular circumstances of the relations between the Crown and the Harbour Board, both in connection with this incident and otherwise during the War, His Majesty's Government would have been prepared to make some ex gratia contribution had not this connection on the whole been financially favourable to the Harbour Commissioners. My hon. Friend understands, of course, that the Admiralty have no power of themselves to make ex gratia grants.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    ADMIRALTY.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many ex-service men employed in a temporary capacity competed at the recent examinations for the clerical class; how many passed, qualified, and failed, respectively; what number of those who failed applied to appear before the Investigating Board under paragraphs 36–39 of the Lytton Committee's Third Interim Report; and how many were recommended?
    Mr. AMERY: 151 temporary ex-service men serving in the Admiralty who failed at the November-December examinations, 1920, were recommended by their immediate superiors as specially competent to carry out the whole of the duties likely to be required of members of the clerical class. Of these, 37 were regarded by the Board of Admiralty as fulfilling all the conditions of paragraphs 36–39 of the Third Interim Report of the Lytton Committee, and were accordingly recommended to the Investigating Board. I regret that the other figures asked for by the hon. Member are not immediately available and their compilation would involve an unjustifiable expenditure of time and labour.

    RESETTLEMENT (NAVAL RATINGS).
    Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Committee appointed under the presidency of Captain E. Martin

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    Bennett, C.B.E., R.N., to consider the question of resettlement of naval men on return to civil life has finished its deliberations, and, if so, when the Report will be published?
    Mr. AMERY: The Report of the Resettlement Committee is now under consideration, and I hope shortly to be in a position to make public the decision of the Admiralty in the matter. It is not proposed to publish the Report itself.

    EX-SERGEANT G. PARSONAGE, LANCASTER.
    Mr. GILLISasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the case of ex-Sergeant G. Parsonage, of 18, Dundee Street, Lancaster; whether he is aware that this man was employed as an investigating officer in the military service (Civil Liabilities Department) of the Ministry of Labour, 21st June, 1920, to 8th July, 1921; that he registered his name with the Joint Substitution Board on their invitation on 4th April, 1921; that he was informed by the Board on 13th January, 1922, that his case had been transferred to the Employment Department, Manchester; that he was informed by the Employment Department, Manchester, on 2nd February, 1922, that his case had been transferred to the Labour Exchange, Lancaster; that he has subsequently been informed at the Labour Exchange, Lancaster, that there are no vacancies for him; and whether he is able to take any further action in the matter?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): Mr. Parsonage was discharged in July last owing to diminution in the work of the Civil Liabilities Department. The Joint Substitution Board was notified in April, 1921, of his impending discharge, but, having no suitable administrative vacancy, endeavoured through its local agencies at Manchester and Lancaster to find him a clerical post. He was unfortunately unsuccessful in connection with one or two posts for which he was considered locally. Efforts are still being made, and will be continued on his behalf.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
    Colonel Sir A. SPROTasked the Minister of Health how many ex-service men are under notice of dismissal; and whether the Lytton Report recommenda-
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    tions have been carried out as regards these discharges, especially in regard to technical classes?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond): There are 302 ex-service men under notice of discharge in the Ministry of Health, due to curtailment of work and consequent reduction of staff. The recommendations in the Lytton Report have been carried out. With regard to the technical classes, I would refer to the answer given by me on Monday last to the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter).

    MECHANICAL TRANSPORT DEPOT, DEPTFORD.
    Sir P. DAWSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that disabled men have received notice to leave the Mechanical Transport Depots Royal Army Service Corps, Deptford, while home service men are still being retained; and will he see that the provisions of the Lytton Report are observed in this case?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: The only cases in which disabled men have been discharged from this depot, whilst home service men were retained, have been eases whore this course was necessary in order to secure the efficiency of the establishment. When large reductions, in the interests of essential economy, are being necessarily made, this procedure is inevitable. Paragraph 17 of the Report of the Lytton Committee of 19th August, 1920, makes it clear that they regarded efficiency as an over-riding consideration throughout.

  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.

    NAVY ESTIMATES.
    Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Estimates for 1922–23 have been formed in accordance with the Cabinet Instruction of 1919 on the assumption that no great war is to be anticipated within the next 10 years?
    Mr. AMERY: The answer is in the affirmative.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: If that is so how does he reconcile it with the fact that we have far more officials at the Admiralty than before the War?
    Mr. AMERY: I do not think I can go into that now, but the House will probably debate the matter on the Estimates.

    ELECTORAL REGISTERS.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Minister of Health what is the estimated cost to the national and local authorities of making two electoral registers per annum; whether one was considered necessary before the War; and what would be the saving if the pre-War plan was adopted?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The total cost per annum to national and local authorities of the two six-monthly electoral registers for Great Britain is approximately £1,000,000. A single annual register was in force prior to the Representation of the People Act, 1918, when the change was made in pursuance of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference on electoral reform. It is estimated that the yearly saving that would result from having only an annual register would probably not exceed £250,000 in all.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of making this saving of a quarter of a million pounds?
    Mr. SHORTT: That is at present under consideration.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALL: When will a decision be arrived at? It has been under consideration for 18 months.
    Mr. SHORTT: I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that it has not been under consideration for anything like that time. It has been under mine for only a very short time.

    FOREIGN OFFICE (PUBLICITY DEPARTMENT).
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAYasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to dispense with all publicity activities abroad, as proposed by the Geddes Committee; and, if so, whether the decision has been arrived at in consultation with all the competent authorities?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): I am not aware that the Committee recommended that any publicity activities abroad should be dispensed with. The Committee recommended that special provision for the Foreign Office News Department abroad should cease, and that the necessary work should be performed by the regular diplomatic staff.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    ADMIRALTY (CIVIL POSTS).
    Sir P. DAWSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether a large increase has been made in the number of the civil posts in the Admiralty; why there are three private assistant secretaries at from £1,200 to £1,500 a year, plus war bonus, in 1921 as compared with one in 1914; why there are eight assistant secretaries in 1921 at £1,000 to £1,200, plus war bonus, as compared with six in 1914; and why there are 15 principal clerks at £700 to £900 a year, plus war bonus, in 1921 as compared with nine in 1914?
    Mr. AMERY: All the facts in connection with this reorganisation of the higher civil staff of the Admiralty were given to the House in my answer to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Hull Central on 15th June last, to which I would refer the hon. Member. I explained in that reply that the changes made were not special to the Admiralty, but were in pursuance of a scheme of reorganisation adopted for all the more important Government Departments, with a view to more efficient financial control, and particularly to carry out the Government's decision that the Permanent Secretary and his staff are to be charged with enlarged duties and responsibilities in regard to such control. The precise number of higher civil posts required is settled by the Treasury from time to time with reference to the needs of the Department, and when the heavy administrative work attendant upon the reduction of the fleet and its establishments to the scale rendered possible by the Washington Conference is completed, the number of these posts will be reduced.

    TRADE BOARDS STAFF.
    Mr. HAYDAYasked the Minister of Labour whether any persons engaged

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    on the work of the Trade Board Section are under notice, and, if so, whether he will state the number of such persons and the reasons which have led him to this action in view of the inadequacy of the existing staff and of the fact that the whole question of Trade Boards is still under review by the Committee of Inquiry set up under the chairmanship of Viscount Cave?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Of a total temporary staff numbering 34, engaged upon inspection, investigation, and administrative duties connected with Trade Boards, 15 are under notice to leave on 31st March. The net reduction of the staff of Trade Boards, however, will be 12, owing to the transfer of three officers from another branch of the Ministry. The whole staff position of the Trade Board Division will be reviewed upon receipt of the Report of the Cave Committee.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not rather an expense to get rid of these trained inspectors until you know what will be the outcome of the Cave Committee's deliberations? It is very expensive training.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Yes, but in my judgment it is not possible to keep officers unless there is work for them.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Suppose the Cave Committee decides that the Trade Boards are good and wants to apply them to other people, there will then be plenty of work for them, and is it not expensive to get rid of these trained inspectors until you know the result?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I should like to agree with my Noble Friend, but it is quite improper for me, or for anybody else, if I may say so with respect, to anticipate the decision of the Cave Committee.

    OVERSEAS TRABE DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. LYLEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the still large number of unemployed, he will make careful inquiries before altering the constitution of the Department of Overseas Trade, and thus reducing the chances of increased work for the masses?
    Mr. YOUNG: Careful inquiries have been made by the Government in this case, as in the case of the other recom-
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    mendations of the Committee on National Expenditure, and my hon. Friend may rest assured that the considerations mentioned in the question have not been overlooked.

    NON-SERVICE MEN.
    Viscount WOLMERasked the Prime Minister whether he will give instructions that those men who made personal application for permission to join the Army during the War, but who were refused permission by the Government on the ground that their services were elsewhere required, shall, for all purposes of discharge now from Government establishments, be reckoned as being in the same category as ex-service men?
    Mr. YOUNG: Lord Lytton's Committee, which last year gave careful consideration to the question of the employment of ex-service men in the Civil Service, did not recommend that temporary employees who had applied for, but were refused, permission to join His Majesty's forces during the War should, in considering discharges from Government Departments, be regarded as being in the same category as ex-service personnel. I see no reason to modify the decision which has been reached on this matter.
    Viscount WOLMER: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a number of men who made repeated application for permission to enlist in the Army during the War; that that permission was refused by the Government, and that some of them are now being discharged by the same Government on the ground that they are not ex-service men?
    Mr. YOUNG: I should say that the real answer to the Noble Lord is that the preference which is given to ex-service men is not given primarily as a reward but as an approach to compensation for an interrupted career. The career of the men who stayed behind was not interrupted in the same way.

    OFFICE OF WORKS.
    Viscount WOLMERasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, the number of officials in the Office of Works in 1913 and 1921 respectively, and the total amount of salaries paid in each of these two years?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. GILMOUR (for the First Commissioner of Works): The administrative, professional, and clerical staff employed in this Department in 1913 and at the end of 1921 numbered 674 and 1,920 respectively. The cost of the staff in 1913 was £149,660, while the estimated cost of the staff for the current financial year is £665,050, £80,500 of this sum being recoverable from local authorities in respect of services rendered by this Department in connection with housing schemes and other services.
    Viscount WOLMER: Does not the hon. Member think there is room for economy there?
    Mr. J. JONES: No!

  UNEMPLOYMENT

    BENEFIT (MARRIAGE).
    Mr. RENDALLasked the Minister of Labour whether a man receiving unemployment benefit and who marries while in receipt of it is entitled to the 5s. for his wife; and, if so, whether payment for any children his wife may have had before marriage to him will be made?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: In accordance with the terms of the Dependants' Grants Act, a grant would be payable in respect of the wife. A grant would also be payable in respect of the children if they are the applicant's children or have been adopted by him: are wholly or mainly maintained at his cost: and are under the age of 14, or under the ago of 16 and under full-time instruction in a day school.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Are we to understand that a man who receives unemployment benefit and marries is entitled to these payments?
    Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERY: How many men out of employment have married under these conditions?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot say.

    MARRIED WOMEN (PART-TIME WORK).
    Mr. RENDALLasked the Minister of Labour whether a married woman doing part-time domestic work and earning 10s. per week thereat will receive the 5s. unemployment benefit if and because
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    her husband is out of work if she gives up her employment though offered a continuance of it?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Under the Dependants' Grants Act, a grant is not payable in respect of a wife if she is in regular wage-earning employment. Whether the grant would be payable in the circumstances described in the question would depend on all the circumstances of the case. If, however, the employment is given up merely in order that the grant may be claimed, that would be a matter which the Local Employment Committee would take into consideration, and would be a proper ground for refusing a grant.

    NURSES.
    Mr. L. LYLEasked the Minister of Labour if the priniple has been definitely established that a nurse, unemployed because she is waiting for a case, is not automatically entitled, although a regular weekly payer under the National Insurance Act, to unemployment relief; whether he is aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction on the point among nurses; and whether he will now make a definite declaration of official policy?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The question whether a nurse waiting for a case is eligible for benefit depends on the circumstances, and will be determined, in any case of doubt, by the machinery provided by the Act, namely, the insurance officer, with the right of appeal to the Court of Referees and the Umpire. If dissatisfaction is felt with any decision of the insurance officer the proper course is to appeal to the Court of Referees. The Department will afford every facility for such an appeal and will arrange for a further appeal to the Umpire if this appears to be necessary or desirable.
    Mr. LYLE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it highly unsatisfactory that a nurse who is waiting for a case should be deprived of relief? Is it not highly improper to take this money from nurses who are ill-paid?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: If the nurse is in receipt of an annual salary and is merely waiting for a case, but is not unemployed in the sense that she is receiving assistance, I do not think she is rightly eligible to unemployment benefit, but if in fact she is waiting for a case and out of unem-

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    ployment and not receiving any retaining fee or salary or income of any sort, then she is entitled to benefit.
    Mr. LYLEasked the Minister of Labour in how many cases unemployment relief has been refused to nurses waiting for cases; and in how many cases it has been granted?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I am unable to give this information, which could not, I am afraid, be extracted from the records without considerable expense.

    CARETAKERS.
    Mr. SEXTONasked the Minister of Labour if he can inform the House whether the case decided by the High Court which excluded caretakers from benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act, to which they had been contributing since its enactment, was initiated by his Department?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: In accordance with Proviso (ii) of Section 10 (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, I referred to the High Court for decision certain test cases of persons employed as cleaners and caretakers whom I had previously held to be insurable. I took this course because my decision with regard to a similar type of employment, which I had held to be insurable, had been reversed in the High Court. I would add that counsel on my behalf argued that such persons should be held to be insurable, but this contention was rejected by the Court.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why it has taken so long to find out whether this particular class of people is insurable or not?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The question was not raised until the action in the Courts.

    MINING INDUSTRY (CONTINUITY RULE).
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Labour if he has received representations, supported both by miners and mine-owners in the Somerset and other coalfields, urging that the continuity rule under the Unemployment Insurance Acts brings hardship to the miner and inconvenience to the owner in that the best system of short-time working in the mining industry is one day on and one day off; and what steps he proposes to take?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The continuity rule, which cannot be altered without fresh legislation, has occasionally been criticised but no practicable alternative has so far been suggested. In particular, I should mention that I do not think I should be justified in present circumstances in recommending an Amendment of the rule in order to enable benefit to be paid to persons working on alternate days.

  HOUSING.

    SUBSIDY.
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Minister of Health whether it is possible to arrange for the housing subsidy for new houses which is given to local authorities to be extended to 1924, so as to place England and Wales on the same footing as Scotland?
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether the Government is prepared to grant to English and Welsh local authorities exactly the same terms and conditions as regards the extended period during which houses must be completed in order to qualify for financial assistance as those specified in the Scottish Board of Health Order, No. 944, issued on 6th May, 1921?
    Sir A. MOND: I am satisfied that Article III of the Local Authorities (Assisted Housing Scheme) Regulations, 1919, administered in the light of the assurances which I have already given, will have the same effect as the Scottish Regulations referred to, and that the issue of further Regulations is unnecessary.
    Mr. THOMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of my question, where it is specifically asked whether the conditions of Order No. 944, which gives the Scottish local authorities the right to extend the period till 1924, without the option of the Minister intervening, will apply to English local authorities, so that they will not be dependent on the option of the Minister?
    Sir A. MOND: I have already stated repeatedly, in reply to questions of this character, that the English authorities will be treated on similar lines to the Scottish authorities, but I see no reason for adopting the Scottish formula for the English administration.
    Mr. THOMSON: Do I understand that the English authorities will have the right under any circumstances to have the period extended till 1924, as the Scottish authorities have?
    Sir A. MOND: No. The English authorities will have the right to have the period extended if they can show that it is not due to their fault that they have not completed their programmes by the date on which they ought to be completed. I do not propose to give extensions if the authorities have been negligent in going on and carrying out their work.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is not this differentiation due to the fact that the Scottish local authorities have been better able to look after their own business?

    ROOFING SLATES, EDINBURGH.
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Minister of Health how many tons of roofing slates have yet to be taken delivery of by the Department of Building Material Supplies, Edinburgh, and of this tonnage how much has already been paid for by this Department; what is the total tonnage contracted for since the 1st October, 1921; when is it proposed to close the Slate and Tile Section of the Department of Building Material Supplies, Edinburgh; and whether he is aware that the present practice of this Department of forcing the building authorities to use slates supplied by the Department at prices much above market prices is causing great dissatisfaction?
    Sir A. MOND: There are 2,274 tons of slates which have been paid for by the Department, but not yet delivered, and of these all but 265 tons have been allocated to particular housing schemes. With regard to slates which have been ordered by the Department on behalf of local authorities, but have not been paid for, I am unable to give an exact figure of the undelivered balance, because, under the arrangements which have been made to facilitate the closing of the Department, these slates are invoiced direct to the local authorities. There are 1,300 tons of these slates which have not been allocated to particular schemes. No slates were contracted for since the 1st October, or indeed for some months before that date. It is proposed to close the Department on the 31st March next, but I am afraid I cannot give a date by which
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    the whole of the slates will have been delivered. As I have already stated, I am taking steps to secure that the Department's commitments are liquidated at the earliest possible moment in order that the local authorities may be left free to make their own arrangements. With regard to the last part of the question, as these slates were ordered for local authorities building schemes, and as the Government has to bear the extra cost, the local authority being only liable for a penny rate, the working-off of these stocks seems to me the most practical course to assume.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is there a fixed price for some of these slates?
    Sir A. MOND: No, the slates are debited to the scheme for what they cost us.

    HOUSING COMMISSIONER, WALES.
    Mr. G. BARKERasked the Minister of Health if it is proposed to close down at the end of March next the office of the Housing Commissioner for Wales and Monmouthshire which, since its establishment, has been attached to the Welsh Board of Health at Cardiff, and has during a very difficult period carried out with success the onerous duties connected with the Government housing scheme in Wales; is he aware that this alleged proposal is strongly resented and is viewed as a retrograde step which would seriously impair the work of the Ministry in relation to housing, and would not result in any real saving of public money owing to the extra time and trouble involved in all negotiations having to be carried on through London and the expenses of deputations visiting the Ministry of Health in London instead of interviewing the Commissioners at Cardiff; and will he advise the Government to reconsider its decision?
    Sir A. MOND: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 27th February to the hon. Member for the Pontypool Division of Monmouthshire (Mr. T. Griffiths).
    Mr. BARKER: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, as to re-considering the decision of the Government?
    Sir A. MOND: If my hon. Friend will refer to the answer which I gave, he will find that all these points have been, considered.

    FURNISHED HOUSES (LETTING).
    Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the increased profiteering caused by the buying up of cottages and the letting of them furnished at exorbitant rents, particularly in view of the value and nature of the furniture; whether his Department is aware that ordinary tenants of unfurnished houses are being expropriated to permit reletting of houses furnished on these lines; and whether his Department can take any steps to restrict this growing abuse which is weighing as a heavy burden upon tenants, particularly in industrial districts?
    Sir A. MOND: I have no information as to the first two parts of the question. So far as I am aware, tenants are amply protected against improper expropriation by the provisions of the Increase of Rent (Restrictions) Act, 1920.

    BUILDING OPERATIVES.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health the total numbers of building operatives employed on the various local authorities' housing schemes on the following dates: 1st October, 1st November, 1st December, 1st January, and 1st February?
    Sir A. MOND: The total numbers of men employed on housing schemes of local authorities and public utility societies on the dates mentioned were as follow:

    1st October

    138,334

    1st November

    134,200

    1st December

    125,344

    1st January

    116,599

    1st February

    101,235

    These figures are exclusive of the men employed on houses being built with the aid of the private builders' subsidy. The hon. Member must bear in mind that during winter months it must be expected that the volume of employment in the building trade will ordinarily be reduced.
    Mr. THOMSON: Seeing that those figures clearly show that all available labour for building houses is not being utilised, will the right hon. Gentleman sanction the application of local authorities for further houses to be built where labour is available, and thus redeem the
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    Prime Minister's pledge that not a single house less would be built owing to the change he was making?
    Sir A. MOND: I am at the present time sanctioning more houses in various localities where it can be shown to me that the necessity exists, and prices are reasonable. I am glad to find that local authorities are assisting me very much in the policy of trying to get prices reduced by not asking for any large number of houses to be built.

    SALES (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
    Mr. PERCYasked the Minister of Health whether the Government have decided to take prompt measures to sell, where possible, at under cost, the houses recently erected under the Housing Acts and Regulations, so as to cut losses as far as may be?
    Sir A. MOND: I have always encouraged the sale of houses by local authorities, and am considering what further steps in this direction are practicable.

    PREMIUMS.
    Colonel NEWMANasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the evasion of the Rent Restriction Act, whereby landlords or lessors of flats charge a premium for possession by placing a fictitious value on fixtures and fittings in the premises, and making the purchase of the fixtures and fittings a necessary condition of the bargain; and whether he will take power to deal with such cases?
    Sir A. MOND: I have no information as to the first part of the question, but I am advised that if a premium forbidden by Section 8 of the Act is demanded and paid it can be recovered by the person paying it, who can also, if he wishes, institute a prosecution of the person by whom it is received.

    LOCAL RATING.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the present system of local rating is inequitable both in form and incidence; and when he proposes to introduce the

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    Government's Bill to deal with this question, which was foreshadowed by his predecessor in office?
    Sir A. MOND: I agree with the hon. Member that the existing system of rating and valuation is in need of reform, but I cannot at present say whether it will be practicable to introduce legislation on this subject during the current Session.
    Mr. THOMSON: How soon will it be practicable to introduce this long-promised reform?
    Sir RYLAND ADKINS: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it will be possible to introduce the Bill for the purpose of having it printed and brought to the notice of the public, even if it is not probable that it can be proceeded with before the end of this Session?
    Sir A. MOND: I will consider both those suggestions, but the Bill is not yet drafted.

    DISTRICT AUDITORS (INSPECTORS).
    Lieut.-Colonel JACKSONasked the Minister of Health whether certain officials have recently been appointed to inspect and supervise the work of district auditors; what is the reason for their appointment; and whether the cost of their services entails or will entail additional Stamp Duty under the Stamp Duty (Local Authorities) Order of 1921?
    Sir A. MOND: The five inspectors of audit who were appointed a year ago were chosen from the existing audit staff. They continue as auditors, undertake special audits, and, in addition, supervise and co-ordinate the work of the district auditors, bring about greater uniformity of practice, and assist the auditors in the many difficult questions which are now arising. No addition to the Stamp Duty will be necessary, as the salaries of these officers were taken into account when the present scale was fixed. I am satisfied that the results have fully justified these appointments, and that if they had not been made, the increase in the work of audit could not have been met without increasing the existing staff.
    Mr. HURD: Is it not a fact that there is considerable duplication between the national and local audit? Is it not possible to save a considerable sum of money?
    Sir A. MOND: I have been going into that, and I have been trying to do what I can in order to avoid it.

    BOROUGH EXTENSIONS.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Health how many persons are engaged on schemes of borough extensions in the Ministry of Health; how many have been so engaged and what has been the cost to the taxpayers during the last 12 months; and whether, in the interest of economy in local rates as well as in national expenditure, he will consider the desirability of dispensing with this section of his Department and suspending further consideration of such extension schemes for the next five years until the matter, as it concerns the whole country, has been inquired into by a Royal Commission?
    Sir A. MOND: The examination of borough extension proposals forms part of the general work of one of the Departments of the Ministry, and there are no officers exclusively engaged on this work. In reply to the last part of the question, I am advised that I have no power to refuse, on general grounds, to entertain an application for the extension of its boundary properly made by the council of any borough.
    Mr. BARRAND: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the time of these officials, which has been devoted to a considerable extent during the last few months, at any rate, to these extension schemes, would be better employed in helping smaller local authorities to improve their administration, rather than assisting or encouraging larger towns to absorb their smaller neighbours?
    Sir A. MOND: It is the duty of my Department to examine these schemes, and the duty of my officials to go into them, both from the point of view of the larger and the smaller authorities, and the smaller authorities are just as much safeguarded by that examination as the larger ones.
    Mr. LUNN: If the right hon. Gentleman is considering economy in local rates, will he take steps to see that economy is taken into account in this matter of borough extension costs?
    Sir A. MOND: I have no power to interfere with borough extensions, or to stop local authorities from fighting their cases in the Committee rooms upstairs.

    SALT (IMPORTS FROM GERMANY).
    Mr. RAPERasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the bad German salt which has recently been arriving in both England and Ireland in large quantities, and to the fact that instructions have been issued by the authorities in Washington to analyse all imported salt in view of the serious impurities found in the salt at present being exported from Germany; and what action he is taking in this matter?
    Sir A. MOND: I have made inquiries, and I find that very little salt is being imported into this country from Germany for purposes of food. There is no evidence that this salt is in such a condition as to involve any danger to health, but further investigations are being made.

    UNION ASSESSMENT.
    Mr. SUGDENasked the Minister of Health if he will review for the purposes of alteration the Union Assessment Committee Acts to allow applicants to the Assessment Committee the opportunities which the changed conditions since the enactment of such Acts require?
    Sir A. MOND: If my hon. Friend will let me know what alterations he proposes, I shall be glad to consider them.

    DEFECTIVE CHILDREN, ROYTON.
    Mr. SUGDENasked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take in conjunction and co-operation with the Minister of Education in respect to the care, general education, and training for industry of defective children of the Parliamentary Division of Royton, Lancashire, where at present no facilities obtain and where urgency is essential?
    Sir A. MOND: I am not aware of the circumstances affecting the hon. Member's constituency, but the Lancashire Asylums Board have recently provided accommodation for over 2,000 mental defectives
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    at the Calderstones Institution, Whalley, where facilities exist for dealing with all the children for whom it is the duty of the local authority, under the Mental Deficiency Act, to provide. This should contribute to meeting the needs of the hon. Member's constituency, as well as those of the rest of Lancashire.
    Mr. SUGDEN: What provision is made, not necessarily for mentally defective children, but for physically defective children?
    Sir A. MOND: I am afraid I cannot give an answer to that question without notice.

    MILK SUPPLY.
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the advisabiliy of at once setting up, in consultation with the Minister of Agriculture, a small Committee to consider, in the light of the present financial position of the country and of the agricultural industry in particular, the simplest means of ensuring the cleanliness and purity of the milk supply of urban areas, with a view to the necessary amendment of the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915, before that Act is brought into operation?
    Sir A. MOND: I am in continual consultation with the Minister of Agriculture on this subject, as well as with other persons well qualified to express opinions, and I am considering now the introduction of legislation to deal with the question.
    Mr. HURD: Is it a fact that if this Act comes into force without amendment, it is very liable to paralyse the milk supply of this country?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not true that the Minister of Health has received representations from influential producers and distributors of milk that if these proposals were put into an Act, towns would be able to adopt model Clauses, which would enable them to improve the milk supply at very little cost to the taxpayer, and great gain to the infant welfare of the country?
    Sir J. D. REES: Will my right hon. Friend see that this new Bill entails no extra charge on the unfortunate ratepayer?
    Sir A. MOND: I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees) says. With regard to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), I have been in consultation with a number of local authorities, and a Bill is now being prepared, which, I think, will meet the general view, and will lead to amendment and modification of the Act of 1915, which is rather difficult to administer under present circumstances.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Are we given to understand by that reply that it is a question of money in preference to children's health?
    Sir A. MOND: The hon. Gentleman has no right to make such a statement. I am preparing a Bill to improve the supply of milk. I said I would see, if possible, that it should cast no burden on the ratepayers.

    INDUSTRIAL INSURANCE.
    Mr. SUGDENasked the Minister of Health if full opportunities have been given to the agents' unions in respect of consultation as to the proposed legislation on industrial insurance; and if he will choose the chief executive officials to operate the same from amongst experienced insurance companies conditionally that such service is supplied without cost to the Ministry of Health?
    Mr. SHORTT: My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I received recently a deputation on which the agents' unions were represented, and I am at all times ready to consider any representations they may put before me. The second part of the question seems to be based upon a misconception of the legislation proposed. I do not understand what functions the hon. Member thinks could be assigned to the officials referred to.
    Mr. SUGDEN: I will give the right hon. Gentleman details.
    Mr. SHORTT: Thank you.

  PEACE TREATIES.

    TURKEY.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether he has seen the
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    suggestion of M. Franklin Bouillon that a suitable solution of the Anglo-French detente over Turkey could be arrived at by the cession of Cyprus to Greece; and whether His Majesty's Government have considered that the restoration of Tunis to Turkey would also facilitate the desirable restoration of universal amity?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): Neither suggestion commends itself to His Majesty's Government.

    PRINCIPLE OF NATIONALITY.
    Colonel Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the rejection of the principle of nationality at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the concept thereof, as applicable to Eastern and Western European countries and those of Asia and America, was examined by any and what Department under His Majesty's Government prior to its adoption in the Treaties of Peace with the Central Powers engaged in the late War; and whether he will lay upon the Table of this House any Report prepared or presented thereon for the information of the Foreign Office?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The question how far the principle of nationality was applicable to the different problems which would be presented to the Peace Conference and the methods by which it could be applied were, of course, the subject of the most careful consideration in the Foreign Office. In answer to the second part of the question, it does not seem desirable to publish any of the numerous reports and memoranda which were prepared.

    AVIATION (CONTROL).
    Major GLYNasked the Prime Minister what other countries maintain an Air Force and Air Ministry as a distinct department of government on similar lines as that existing in this country; whether he is aware that the Air Departments of other countries are chiefly concerned with civil aviation and the design and supply of aircraft of all kinds to the order of the naval and military departments as well as for civil purposes; and whether the Government have asked for or obtained the opinion of the General Staff and the Board of

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    Admiralty as to whether greater efficiency and economy might result from an alteration of the existing system?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: So far as I am aware no other country maintains an Air Force as a service separate and additional to the Army and Navy or a separate Air Ministry as a distinct Department of State. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the third part that the Government are fully aware of the views of the General Staff and Board of Admiralty.
    Major GLYN: Are there any reports available to Parliament as to the opinion in this matter of the Committee of Imperial Defence?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that the reports of the Committee of Imperial Defence are ever published; they are necessarily of a highly confidential kind.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    ALBANIA.
    Mr. A. HERBERTasked the Prime Minister if the attention of His Majesty's Government has been called to a recent speech of M. Pasic, made during the investigation of the Commission of the League of Nations in Albania, in which he stated that Yugo-Slavia should assert her rights in Albania by force of arms; and if His Majesty's Government is in agreement with this policy?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I have received full summaries of a number of statements about Albania made by M. Pasic in the course of a Debate in the Serbian Chamber on 25th. and 27th January. None of these statements contains any trace of a menace of the kind quoted. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.

    CABINET SECRETARIAT.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYasked the Prime Minister if he will specify the duties in connection with the League of Nations which are entrusted to the Cabinet Secretariat?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Cabinet Secretariat is the channel of communication between His Majesty's Government and the League of Nations. It receives
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    and is responsible for distributing to the Members of the Government and Departments concerned all communications emanating from the League; prepares coordinated answers thereto when necessary after consulting the respective Departments; and, generally, sees that the British representatives on the Council and at the Assembly are kept informed of all phases of the League's activities. In addition, the official in charge of this Section accompanies the British representatives to meetings of the Council and Assembly, and acts as secretary of a Cabinet Committee, which deals with questions relating to the League of Nations.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is not the larger portion of the work of the League of Nations in this country carried out by the Foreign Office, and is not, therefore, the Cabinet Secretariat the fifth wheel in the coach?
    Sir J. D. REES: Is the cost of this Secretariat debited to the League of Nations, the Foreign Office, or under what head is it?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is debited—I speak without opportunity for reference, but certainly I think—debited to the Vote for the Cabinet Secretariat. In answer to my hon. and gallant Friend opposite I have correctly described the position, and have given him the correct information on the points put on the Paper. As to the exact amount of work which this involves on each of the Cabinet Departments, I certainly could not speak, nor do I think the inquiry very valuable. The work of the League very often affects the work of several Departments. The Cabinet Secretariat is the channel of communication, and is responsible for seeing that each Department gets, and contributes, the necessary information.

  IRELAND.

    GOVERNMENT PROPERTY (TRANSFER).
    Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister whether the agents of the Provisional Government, to whom the British Government are turning over stores and property ostensibly for safe custody, belong to the Irish Republican Army; and, if so, whether the Government can give

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    any assurance that they have been handed over to men who acknowledge the authority of the Provisional Government?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill): As I stated in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Kirkdale on the 16th February last, I am prepared to assume that the personnel of the force which the Provisional Government is creating, as well as the headquarters staff engaged in equipping and training it, will be largely drawn from those who, during the period of conflict, constituted what was known as the Irish Republican Army, and it would be impossible for His Majesty's Government to refuse to have dealings with such persons on that account; but all such dealings will be with such persons in their individual capacity as accredited agents of the Provisional Government.
    Viscount CURZON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any sort of answer to the last part of the question?
    Sir W. DAVISON: When the right hon. Gentleman replies, will he explain how, if such reliance can be placed on the Provisional Government, he accounts for the fact that 30,000 rounds of ammunition and a large amount of stores have been stolen by the Irish Republican Army at Clonmel?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I should say that the amount of ammunition and stores is larger than that stated by my hon. Friend—
    Sir W. DAVISON: I always like to be within the mark.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It has been stolen by a portion of the Irish Republican Army which is in open defiance of the Provisional Government, and only a week ago shot one of the officers of the Provisional Government. So far as the question of my Noble Friend is concerned, we are not handing over stores of any kind to persons who do not acknowledge the authority of the Provisional Government.
    Sir W. DAVISON: No, they are taking them!
    Mr. GWYNNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that no further ammunition or stores are handed over to the Provisional Government till he is satisfied their authority is more assured?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; on the contrary, I am continuing to equip the Provisional Government, in order to enable them to carry out their part of the Treaty.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman certain that none of the arms and stores which have been handed over to the Provisional Government are now in the hands of the rebels, and are being used by them?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am certain that the very limited quantity of arms handed over to the Provisional Government for the purpose of equipping their forces has been used for the purpose, and is in the hands of persons who obey the orders of the Provisional Government.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Has the Provisional Government any greater legal status than the rebellious part of the Irish Republican Army?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: At the present moment the Provisional Government has only provisional status. When the Bill of which Parliament will resume consideration to-morrow is passed into law, and receives the Royal Assent, it will be fully accredited, and have the force of law.
    Colonel NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether he can give the total valuation at which the Crown lands at the Curragh, in County Kildare, and the huts, buildings, and other military stores in Newbridge and Curragh camps, have been handed over to the Provisional Government of the Free State; and will he give the total acreage involved?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The lands, buildings and huts referred to have been handed over to the Provisional Government for safe custody, and it is not yet known whether they desire to acquire them. The question of valuation does not therefore, as yet, arise. As regards the stores, inventories of these have been signed by accredited representatives of the. Provisional Government, and the valuation will be agreed at a later date. The area of the land involved is 146 acres, of which 45 acres are subject to a fee farm rent.
    Colonel NEWMAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only two days ago General Mulcahy and his staff went

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    down and took over the huts, after expressing great approval of them?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I took the trouble to make a special inquiry from the military authorities in Ireland, and I have read the answer from General Macready.
    Colonel NEWMAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries as to whether or not General Mulcahy took over these places officially?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Well, Sir, I accept the information, which I have received from General Macready this morning, as correct and up to date. I have no doubt some time in the future stores, lands and huts will be handed over to the Provisional Government—to the Irish Free State Government.
    Colonel NEWMAN: In the meantime, who owns these huts?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am afraid that, according to the information I received only a quarter of an hour ago, no land or huts at the Curragh or Newbridge have yet been handed over to the Provisional Government.
    Mr. RONALD McNEILLasked the Prime Minister what is the estimated value of the property of all sorts, including land, that has been transferred from the British Government to the Provisional Government in Ireland; whether there is any security for the payment of any money as the price of such property, except a verbal agreement with individual members of the Provisional Government; and whether, in the event of such verbal agreement being violated or of its repudiation by whatever Government, Republican or otherwise, may succeed the Provisional Government, the British taxpayer will have any redress for the loss of valuable property?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In reply to the first part of the question, it is not possible at present to estimate the value of the property, including land, transferred subject to valuation to the custody of the Provisional Government; in reply to the second part of the question, the value of the property so transferred will be debited against the Free State in the financial settlement which will eventually take place, and the security that the terms of that settlement will be observed
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    is the credit of His Majesty's Government and of the Irish Government respectively. The third part of the question is hypothetical.
    Mr. McNEILL: Am I to understand from the answer that public property, the value of which is quite unknown, has been transferred to the Provisional Government of Ireland on a mere note of hand, and is that the ordinary habit of the Government in dealing with public property in Ireland?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is it not an act of madness to transfer property to the Provisional Government before we know whether the people of Ireland are going to approve or disapprove of the Treaty?

    DAIL EIREANN.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether Dail Eircann is, during the next three months, to continue to meet and to function in all its departments as before the signing of the Articles of Agreement; what are the functions which this assembly are to perform; is the Irish Republican Army to be allowed to continue as at present during the next three months; and what executive force will be responsible for the maintenance of law and order and the protection of life and property during the same period?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made on 27th February. As I then explained, the Provisional Government expect that it will be possible to hold a General Election in Ireland early in June next. I cannot undertake to forecast the future beyond that date further than to say that I hope that the election will result in the immediate establishment of the Free State. During the interval the Provisional Government will remain responsible for the maintenance of law and order and the protection of life and property.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer what I have put on the Paper as to Dail Eireann continuing to meet? What are its functions? Is he aware that at the meeting yesterday Ministers of Trade, Education, and Propaganda were appointed? What are these Gentlemen to do in Ireland in view of the fact that the British Government is still responsible for law and order?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Gentleman looks at the matter the wrong way round. I have no official knowledge of the proceedings of Dail Eireann. The British Government do not recognise the Republican aspect at all in Ireland and I trust never will. But the Irish Free State party, who are forming the Provisional Government at the present time, have won their position as members of this body to which my hon. Friend has referred. In that capacity they offer explanations to that body, but as stated by the acting head of the Provisional Government yesterday they do not con-eider themselves responsible to that body.

    REBUILDING, CORK.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether the British Government have informed the Provisional Government for Southern Ireland that the British Government held itself responsible for the burning of Cork, and would provide the necessary money for its rebuilding up to £2,000,000?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The arrangements made between the two Governments for the payment of compensation in respect of malicious damage to property in Ireland were fully explained in the Debate on the Supplementary Estimates on the 24th February. No such statement or undertaking as that suggested by the hon. Member has ever been made.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Michael Collins, in replying to a deputation from Cork, definitely stated that the British Government have agreed to be responsible up to £2,000,000 sterling for the burning of Cork, and is that statement correct?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir. I think it is quite incorrect both in regard to the assessment and in the assigning of responsibility?
    Lieut.-Commander KENW0RTHY: Is the Government going to publish the Report of General Strickland on this burning, and if not, why not?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise.

    DIPLOMATIC SERVICE.
    Major KELLEYasked the Prime Minister whether British Consular and Diplomatic representatives abroad are to
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    be at the service of citizens of the Irish Free State; and whether any contribution will be made by the Irish Free State for these services?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The status of the Irish Free State in this, as in other respects, will be similar to that of the Dominions of the British Empire.

    VENEREAL DISEASE
    Mr. STEWARTasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the details of the ravages in certain families wholly caused by venereal disease; whether any steps, other than voluntary clinics, are being taken by the Government to combat these ailments, which disastrously affect so many innocent victims and add so much to the burdens of the taxpayers and ratepayers in maintaining throughout their lives so many citizens who from ill health are incapable of doing any proper work; and whether he will consider the advisability of making such diseases notifiable so that they can be dealt with more effectually in their initial stages?
    Sir A. MOND: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The steps taken by the Government to combat these diseases are based upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission, and include not only the provision of clinics at which skilled treatment is provided free of cost, but also an organised campaign of education and publicity as to the dangers of these diseases and the necessity for early treatment. I am not prepared, as at present advised, to suggest legislation for compulsory notification.
    Mr. STEWART: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the letter in the "Times" of the 23rd instant on this subject, and has he noticed the statement of the Secretary of State for the Colonies yesterday; and will he not make a bold effort to tackle this question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise.

    VOLUNTARY HOSPITALS (GRANTS).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Minister of Health if the Hospitals Commission have now distributed the £500,000 voted

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    to assist the voluntary hospitals; the amounts allocated to each of the London hospitals receiving assistance; and whether the accounts of the London voluntary hospitals for 1921 show any improvement in their financial position?
    Sir A. MOND: I understand from the Voluntary Hospitals Commission that it is anticipated that the Grants made during the present financial year will amount approximately to £120,000, of which £87,900 has been paid to London hospitals. The list is so long that, with the permission of the House, I will have it printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I may explain that applications for grants made through the local Voluntary Hospital Committees are dealt with as soon as they are received. Hospitals have been asked to expedite their applications, but comparatively few have yet been received as their accounts for the year 1921 are not yet made up. Although the figures are not yet complete, the King's Fund estimate that the aggregate deficits for the London hospitals will be substantially less than in 1920, and it is probable that the same will be the case for the provincial hospitals.
    The following is the list promised:

    VOLUNTARY HOSPITALS COMMISSION.

    Grants approved by the Commission up to 28 th February, 1922.

    Hospital.

    Grant approved.

    LONDON.

    £

    Canning Town

    700

    East London Hospital for Children

    3,000

    Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital for Women

    600

    Great Northern Central Hospital

    11,000

    Hampstead General Hospital

    3,400

    Hospital for Epilepsy

    850

    Hospital for Sick Children

    4,000

    Infants' Hospital

    1,000

    King's College Hospital

    9,000

    London Hospital

    10,000

    London Temperance Hospital

    2,000

    Metropolitan Hospital

    750

    Middlesex Hospital

    3,000

    Mildmay Mission Hospital

    400

    National Hospital for the Paralysed

    800

    Prince of Wales's General Hospital

    2,200

    Hospital.

    Grant approved.

    LONDON.

    £

    Queen Charlotte's Lying-in Hospital

    3,000

    Queen Mary's Hospital for the East End

    1,000

    Queen's Hospital for Children

    2,100

    Royal Free Hospital

    12,000

    Royal National Orthopædic Hospital

    3,000

    Royal Waterloo Hospital for Women and Children

    500

    Samaritan Free Hospital for Women

    800

    South London Hospital for Women

    800

    University College Hospital

    12,000

    Total

    £87,900

    LABOUR ORDINANCE, KENYA.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the amendments to the forced Labour Ordinance in Kenya Colony have been approved; and if he will lay them upon the Table of the House?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have not yet received the proposals of the Governor of Kenya for the amendment of the Native Authority (Amendment) Ordinance, 1920. His attention has been drawn to the matter.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: In the meantime are they going on with the old Ordinance, or has it been cancelled?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes.

    RIOTS, PALESTINE.
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, as the Zionist Executive has published a report regarding the riots which took place during Easter, 1920, he will lay upon the Table of the House the Report of General Palin's Committee of Inquiry, in order that the House may be put in possession of the actual facts?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Twickenham on the 3rd

    383
    March last year. I have no knowledge of any report having been published by the Zionist Executive, but in any case I see no reason for His Majesty's Government to modify their original decision.
    Mr. GWYNNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he will not publish this report, and place the House in possession of the facts?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Really, the troubles of 1920 are long away, and we have had lots of troubles in 1921 and 1922.

    CROWN COLONIES (ORDERS FOR MATERIALS).
    Major KELLEYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can arrange that British industrial areas which are suffering through the suspension of British naval construction shall receive a full share of any orders from Crown Colony administrations for railway, bridge, and dock materials and plant?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Every effort is being made to encourage the placing of orders for railway and other similar material in this country by the Colonial administrations; but I cannot undertake that orders shall be placed in particular districts, without regard to the requirements of the Colonies upon whose behalf the orders are placed.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    IRAQ OPERATIONS (MEDAL).
    Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Secretary of State for War when the issue will be made of medals to the troops engaged in suppressing the rebellion in Iraq in 1920?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): The question whether a medal shall be granted in respect of these operations is under consideration.
    Sir A. HOLBROOK: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that on leaving Iraq General Haldane told the troops that a medal would be issued to them?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: No, Sir; I am not aware of that.
    Sir A. HOLBROOK: Certainly he did.

    RANKER OFFICERS (PENSIONS AND GRATUITIES).
    Viscount WOLMERasked the Secretary of State for War whether a ranker officer with a total service of 25 years and qualifying service of 16 years, and commissioned service of six years, during which he held the rank of major for three years, is only entitled to a pension of £165 per annum without any gratuity, whereas a ranker officer with a total service of 15 years, and qualifying service of nine years, and a commissioned service of three years, of which he held the rank of major for six months, is entitled to a pension of £150 per annum with a gratuity of £200; and, if so, whether he will take any steps to remove this disparity of treatment?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I gather that the first officer is to be understood not to hold the substantive rank of major. If he did, his retired pay would be not £165 but £201. As-he was commissioned during the War, he has the choice between the normal scale of retired pay, as stated in the question, and the special scale for those so commissioned. Under the latter, he would be entitled to the same retired pay and gratuity as the second officer, which is the maximum of the scale. It is not proposed to take any further action.
    Viscount WOLMER: Does my hon. Friend think it fair that a man with 10 years' more service should have practically the same pension as the junior man?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: When both officers have earned the maximum pension and there is an overriding maximum, there is no possibility of avoiding it.

    ROYAL ARSENAL, WOOLWICH (DISCHARGE GRATUITIES).
    Mr. HAYDAY(by Private Notice) asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that the workmen who took their discharge on 25th February from the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, were advised by the representatives of their Departments that in the assessment of their gratuities due on discharge for long and satisfactory service account would be taken of War bonus; and whether he can confirm this, in view of the statements now being made in the Press that these men will only be paid on the basis of their ordinary gratuity?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: As regards the first part of the question, I am not aware that any announcement as to the effect upon these gratuities of the Debate in Committee of Supply last week has been made by the Woolwich Departments. As regards the second part, the question of any change in the method of calculating these gratuities would, under the Statute, be for the Treasury.
    Mr. HAYDAY: Surely the workmen at Woolwich taking their discharge should have at least equal consideration with the civil servants, whose question was debated—in connection with the pensions of higher officials being based on salaries plus a percentage of the war bonus—only last week.
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I am sure all these considerations will be taken into account.
    Mr. HAYDAY: May we take it that the matter, as set forth in the latter part of my question, has not been definitely and finally settled?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I do not think so, but I have no authority to answer that question.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is it a fact that the decision arrived at in the House of Commons last week on this pensions question took effect at the time it was passed?
    Mr. YOUNG: I made a very careful statement as to the period at which it would take effect, and perhaps I may refer the hon. Member to that.

    BRITISH FARINA MILLS, LIMITED.
    Mr. ROYCEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Government holding of £350,000 debentures in the British Farina Mills, Limited, has been redeemed; if so, at what date and by what means; if the Government is still financially interested in this venture; if so, to what extent; whether the Government has been legally represented in any litigation or liquidation proceedings concerning this company; and, if so, by whom and at what cost?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson): I have been asked to
    386
    reply. The Government are financially interested in the British Farina Mills, Ltd., as debenture-holders to the amount of £322,573 13s. 6d., and as shareholders to the amount of £25,000. The debentures have not yet been redeemed; the company is in liquidation, and a receiver has been appointed on behalf of the debenture-holders. The answer to the penultimate part of the question is in the negative; the last part does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. ROYCE: If the debentures have not been redeemed, why are they not included in the returns published by the Government?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: What has been the total net loss to the British taxpayer in respect of this company?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The company is in liquidation, and a receiver has been appointed on behalf of the debenture-holders.
    Mr. RAWLINS0N: Is not the total loss estimated at £500,000, and is it not the fact that not £5 worth of food was ever produced at this unfortunate factory?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I do not think that is so.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Minister of Agriculture what progress is being made in the scientific inquiry into the sporadic outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease; and whether such inquiry will cover every avenue, including that of the disease germs being carried in the air?
    Major BARNSTON (Controller of the Household): I have been asked to reply. Inasmuch as no method could be discovered of cultivating artificially the virus of foot-and-mouth disease or of identifying it, the inquiry into the means by which the infection causing sporadic outbreaks of this disease is carried has beep discontinued. Circumstantial evidence points to the air or birds as the most probable carriers of the disease. My right hon. Friend has already stated that he is endeavouring to arrange for an international inquiry into the whole subject.

    ALLOTMENTS BILL.
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state in general terms the purpose of the Allotments Bill mentioned in the Gracious Speech at the opening of the present Session, and when the Measure will be brought before the House?
    Major BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. The purpose of the Bill is to give general effect to the recommendations in the Report of the Departmental Committee on Allotments, a copy of which will be sent to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. HURD: Can the hon. Gentleman say when we are likely to see the Bill?
    Major BARNSTON: I cannot possibly say.

    RUSKIN PARK, CAMBERWELL.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he has received any protest from the London County Council against the retention by his Department of part of Ruskin Park, Cam-berwell; and can his Department do anything in order to urge on the release of this and all parks in London which are still held for Government purposes?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am aware of the desire of the London County Council to resume possession of this land, and with this desire I am entirely in sympathy. The matter was the subject of considerable negotiation with the council last year, and as agreement could not be arrived at, the land is being retained with the consent of the. Ministry of Health, under the provisions of the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Acts. I am desirous of releasing such park lands as soon as possible, but this is required at present for the hospital work of the Ministry of Pensions, which it has not been possible to arrange for carrying on elsewhere.

    FOREIGN TARIFFS.
    Sir R. CLOUGHasked the President of the Board of Trade the number and names of countries which raised their tariffs against Great Britain in the period 1908 to 1916, and from 1916 to the present day?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): In the periods named in the question it would be difficult to find many countries in which some modification of Customs Duties have not taken place. Such changes affect the products of Great Britain in common with those of other countries, and I am not aware of any instance in which there has been an all round increase of duties directed specially against this country. It is impossible to summarise these changes within the limits of an answer to a question, and I will therefore send my hon. Friend a statement showing the principal Tariff revisions which have taken place in the two periods named.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
    Sir J. D. REES: May I ask how one obtains an oral answer from the President of the Board of Education. If one is told to put a question on the Paper it is never reached?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Baronet is too late. We have passed that point.

INDUSTRIES UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.
Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to provide for insurance against unemployment."
On 22nd February the Ministry of Labour issued a circular letter to the trade unions and the employers' associations in the country on the subject dealt with in this Bill, namely, that of unemployment insurance by industry, in which it was stated that the Ministry had for some time past been considering the question of the extent to which unemployment insurance might be provided for and administered by industries themselves, rather than, as at present, by the central Government; and that is the proposal which I desire to make to the House in asking leave to introduce this Bill. I am not introducing the Bill on my own authority, but—and I would particularly ask hon. Members to note this—at the instance of the General Federation of Trade Unions, which is the only great purely industrial and non-political organisation—[Interruption]—of workers in this country. Affiliated with that federation are 129 registered trade

389
unions, with a membership—not merely a delegation membership, but an actual daily, weekly or monthly paying membership of 1,426,000 trade unionists; and it does not seem to me that that is quite the sort of combination that ought to be met with such cheers—[Interruption]—as have emanated from those who are supposed to represent Labour in this House.
There is, no doubt, one section of the Labour movement that attaches the greatest possible importance to the State in every effort connected with industrial progress. On the other hand, there are those—just as good workmen and just as representative of the class to which they belong—who have not that definite and decided faith in the efficacy of the State in improving and controlling everything connected with the working man. The question is referred to in the Geddes Report, and in the circular letter issued by the Ministry of Labour they mention that Report as a justification for reconsidering the method by which Unemployment Insurance should be dealt with in this country, But the federation to which I belong, and for which I am now speaking, had been considering this matter for over a year before the Geddes Committee was ever appointed, and, by resolution in conference at Bangor last year, decided to inquire into the whole subject, with the view of seeing whether it was not possible to sever the question of unemployment entirely from State control, and to place it as a duty on the great industries themselves. The management committee of the federation, after long consideration, drew up a memorandum on the subject, and I cannot do better than quote from that memorandum to inform the House of the principle that has prompted the federation in its action, and of the object which it hopes to secure through this Bill. The memorandum, as it states, is in no sense an attempt to indicate the causes of unemployment or to put forward real remedies. Those are left for separate treatment. The memorandum aims rather at examining some proposals for relieving the distress which unemployment causes. It aims also at determining which of these proposals offers the greatest benefit to the unemployed at the smallest administrative costs and with the least loss of moral fibre to the people themselves. It goes on to say:
390
"To-day the common assumption is that both Boards of Guardians and Employment Exchanges have failed. The failure of the machinery hitherto set up for the relief of distress is presumptive evidence of its un-suitability…. The chief points of Employment Exchange criticism are that they do not fulfil their primary functions—that of providing the employer with the worker he needs, or the worker with the employer he needs, and of affording media of relief to the genuinely unemployed without pauperisation…. While it may he argued that some are too poor to buy a paper, none are too poor to visit the free libraries, where many papers may be consulted; nor should the practice of displaying 'Wants' Advertisements at up-to-date newspaper and trade union offices be overlooked. One of the main arguments for the maintenance of the Exchanges has been drawn from the fact that many thousands of workers do not belong to trade unions. That is mainly their own fault. To-day every worker in every occupation can find unions which are competing for his membership. If the skilled refuse him, the unskilled embrace him. If there is a residuum which cannot be placed, it must be very small or reprehensibly obstinate…. If the industries themselves provided the funds and controlled their distribution, the State would be relieved of enormous administrative charges, and many persons would have inducements to mendicancy removed further from them. The trade unions have had experience of unemployment benefits; they know their people, and statistics prove that they administered with a consideration and with an economy far surpassing that of any Government Department."
It is because the great trade unions are not influenced entirely by politics, but look at trade organisation from the point of view of the amount of benefit that it will give to the worker who is a member as an industrial unit in the country—purely as a means of bargaining with his employer to get a fair share of the results of his labour—that we say that this method of dealing with the subject is quite out of date, is antiquated and useless, places a burden upon the taxpayer almost equal to the benefit received by the workman, and is a thing that ought to be abolished. Therefore, I am asked by this organisation to move for leave to introduce this Bill.
Mr. CLYNES: Chiefly to avoid misunderstanding outside this House, the Members on this side of it desire me to say something in opposition to the main principles of this Bill. We do not propose to carry our opposition to the length of forcing a Division on the First Reading. The Bill is not in print, and we have had no details as to its provisions. We doubt

391
very much indeed whether my hon. and gallant Friend can speak with due authority even for the Federation of Trade Unions with which he is associated.
Mr. RONALD McNEILL: On a point of Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to speak under this rule, having announced his intention of not dividing the House against the Bill?
Mr. SPEAKER: That question was raised in the time of my predecessor, and I recollect him saying that you can bring a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink.
Mr. CLYNES: For myself, I am prepared to listen with the greatest respect to anything that my hon. and gallant Friend may have to say on such a subject as this, for, although we differ from him on many matters, we know him as one who has not only rendered very valuable services to his class, but also most notable services to his country, and he is entitled to be heard on a question of this kind. We understand that by this Bill he proposes completely to transform the principle upon which unemployment insurance to-day rests. The principle now is that insurance must be the acceptance of a risk collectively, and that there must be a collective payment of a contribution for relieving those who suffer from conditions of unemployment. The Bill, as we understand from the little that we have heard about it, is one to place upon each separate industry the obligation, financial and administrative, of meeting whatever may be the needs of the unemployed class within the particular trade or calling. In the first instance, it would, I think, be impossible for anyone, sufficiently or accurately, to define a separate industry, and particularly would it be impossible for a separate trade union to undertake the administration of unemployment insurance within its own borders, for every separate industry within that trade union. I myself am connected with a trade union numbering, roughly, some 500,000 members, but covering not less than 300 different classes of trades and industries within its general membership.
We would, however, be opposed to the Bill, so far as we understand it, even if it were capable of efficient and satisfactory administration, for the reason that insurance has always been accepted where-
392
ever and in whatever connection it has been applied as a pooling of the risks which have to be incurred. One trade is not beset with unemployment. It suffers comparatively little when set beside another class of trade, unfortunately subject to a great degree of unemployment. Why should those in that occupation, favoured by circumstances, be free from their share of the financial and other liability which a state of distress demands in the case of those who have to suffer very severely indeed? I fail to understand why my hon. and gallant Friend who so long has been connected with the least fortunate class of men—the navvy, the outdoor worker, and the general labourer—for whom he has done great work in the past, should associate himself with a proposal to throw upon those who are faced with all these unusual hardships the great obligation of trying to provide for themselves, while saying to others that they can be free from liability and payment in the state of good fortune in which they are placed.
This is a Bill which, if it found effect in law, would set up, not one scheme or plan of relieving unemployment in place of that plan, defective and insufficient as it may be, which now exists, but a thousand schemes. My hon. and gallant Friend was cheered when he said that this would relieve the State of the cost of administration, but anyone giving a moment's deeper thought to it will sec that it would be totally impossible. Under such a great number of schemes as this Bill would involve, you could not have any saving of expense. You would merely have a transference of it, and my hon. and gallant Friend, if he proposes to throw upon the workshops—upon the employers and trade union organisations—the cost of this administration, will find that both of them will reject it. We say that unemployment ought to be, even more than it is, a State responsibility, and that, in the acceptance of that responsibility the State should call upon the industries to bear a real and substantial share of the financial and other obligations which have to be incurred in connection with these schemes of relief.
I suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend that his Federation, if it is really seriously taking this view, is not giving sufficient trial to the attempts which the State so far has made to deal with this

393
problem. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour has recently modified his views upon this question, but I suggest that we had only just established conditions of relief to the unemployed through the State agency when the War broke out, and that we have not yet had any reasonable period of normality in which to test the conditions of this State experiment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I think hon. Members who so readily cheered the first sentences which we heard on this question, ought to be willing to hear one or two ideas on the other side. Any matter dealing with the subject of unemployment, if not of overpowering interest in this House, is of enormous importance outside. I hope that I am not overtaxing the patience of the House, but it is not so much a question for a Division as for understanding, and I put it that we have not yet justly or adequately tested this very great State experiment. We have had two periods which have been abnormal—the War period and the after-War period—and I suggest that the middle of this second abnormal period is not the right or fitting time to propose the introduction of a Bill of this kind.
Question, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for insurance against unemployment," put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Lieut.-Colonel John Ward and Mr. Wilkie.

INDUSTRIES UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.
  INDUSTRIES UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BILL,
  "to provide for insurance against Unemployment," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, 30th March, and to be printed. [Bill 44.]

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT ABOLITION.
Major CHRISTOPHER LOWTHER: I beg to move
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to abolish in Great Britain the award of capital punishment for any crime or offence whatsoever."
I feel too deeply in this matter to indulge in any flowery language. A Bill for the abolition of capital punishment is one which, if it does not induce the sympathy
394
of the whole House, at any rate deserves serious reflection. How many persons, I wonder, who read in the sensational Press of some wretch condemned to die realise the terrible responsibility which they are taking upon themselves. All of us form a part, however small, of that community which is known as the State, and if a felon dies it is the State which kills him. It is very wicked of anyone to take human life. Is it not equally wrong for the State to take human life? If the State acts dishonestly, it is very properly reproved. It would surely be equally blameworthy to resort to the very act which is here so justly condemned in the individual. The death sentence is the only one which can be passed for the crime of murder. No allowance can be made for degree or for circumstance. The condemned man's only chance rests with the Home Secretary. For no other crime is there such rigidity of sentence. I beg the House not to think of me as a sickly sentimentalist. I realise most strongly the need for a deterrent for the most odious crime of murder, but I believe it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a sentence sufficiently severe to deter others, and yet not to take his life.
Leaving aside the condemned man himself, I beg the House for a moment to give thought to the penalty which the execution of an individual imposes upon his relatives and friends. There never was a truer saying that while there is life there is hope. If a man be imprisoned, his relatives and friends can always cherish the hope that the violence of his nature may be so changed as to make him, when free, once again the man they knew him to be at his best. Everyone has someone who cares for him. A judge when sentencing a man to death is sentencing that someone to an anguish of mind which must be well nigh intolerable.
In conclusion, there lingers in my memory a scene which I was unfortunate enough to witness at a Welsh Assize. A man was charged with the brutal murder of his wife. It was a brutal, sordid crime. But what made it infinitely more tragic was the fact that the principal witnesses against the man were his two small children. Can the House, in however an inattentive mood, pass over the thought that no more terrible, no more horrible start in life could be given to the poor little mites than the fact that they

395
were the witnesses of their unfortunate mother's death, and that they were the direct instruments of sending their father to the gallows? I cannot, perhaps because I feel so strongly on this matter, put it in the words which will convince the. House, but I can assure it that so long as I can, in my miserable small way, have the power to do so, I shall struggle on that account alone to have this horrible, this ghastly, responsibility which we all take upon ourselves removed, and which
I consider is a blot upon any civilised nation
Sir F. BANBURY: The right bon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) opposed the last Bill and then ran away. I give notice that I shall oppose this Bill, and that I shall divide the House.
Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to abolish in Great Britain the award of capital punishment for any crime or offence whatsoever."
The House divided: Ayes, 86; Noes, 234.

Division No. 22.]

AYES.

[4.20 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Grundy, T. W.

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Ammon, Charles George

Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

Remer, J. R.

Astor, Viscountess

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Halls, Walter

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hayday, Arthur

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

Hayward, Evan

Royce, William Stapleton

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Widnes)

Sexton, James

Birchall, J. Dearman

Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

Shaw, Hon Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Broad, Thomas Tucker

Hinds, John

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hirst, G. H.

Sutton, John Edward

Cairns, John

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Swan, J. E.

Cape, Thomas

Irving, Dan

Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

Casey, T. W.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Johnstone, Joseph

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Kennedy, Thomas

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Kiley, James Daniel

Wallace, J.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Lunn, William

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Finney, Samuel

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Gilbert, James Daniel

Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)

Wilson, James (Dudley)

Gillis, William

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Wintringham, Margaret

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Myers, Thomas

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Naylor, Thomas Ellis

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Greig, Colonel Sir James William

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Major Christopher Lowther and Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Poison, Sir Thomas A.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

Britton, G. B.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Brown, Major D. C.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Dean, Commander P. T.

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Dixon, Captain Herbert

Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes

Doyle, N. Grattan

Armitage, Robert

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Ednam, Viscount

Atkey, A. R.

Butcher, Sir John George

Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

Campbell, J. D. G.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Carr, W. Theodore

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.)

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Forrest, Walter

Barnston, Major Harry

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Barrand, A. R.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Galbraith, Samuel

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Cheyne, Sir William Watson

Gange, E. Stanley

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Clough, Sir Robert

Gardiner, James

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Bigland, Alfred

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Glanville, Harold James

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Glyn, Major Ralph

Borwick, Major G. O.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Grant, James Augustus

Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hackn'y, N.)

Brassey, H. L. C.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Hamar

Breese, Major Charles E.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Gregory, Holman

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Gretton, Colonel John

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. Frederick E.

Maddocks, Henry

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Matthews, David

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Molson, Major John Eisdale

Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Hancock, John George

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Sharman-Crawford, Robert G.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Morrison, Hugh

Simm, M. T.

Henderson, Lt.-Col. V. L. (Tradeston)

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Mount, Sir William Arthur

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Starkey, Captain John Ralph

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Murchison, C. K.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Stewart, Gershom

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Murray, Hon. Gideon (St. Rollox)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Sugden, W. H.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Murray, William (Dumfries)

Taylor, J.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Nail, Major Joseph

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

Neal, Arthur

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Houston, Sir Robert Patterson

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Tickler, Thomas George

Howard, Major S. G.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Townley, Maximilian G.

Hudson, R. M.

Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Townshend, Sir Charles Vere Ferrers

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Tryon, Major George Clement

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Vickers, Douglas

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket

Waddington, R.

Jephcott, A. R.

Parker, James

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Pearce, Sir William

Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

Larmor, Sir Joseph

Perkins, Walter Frank

Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

Lister, Sir R. Ashton

Perring, William George

Williams, C. (Tavistock)

Lloyd, George Butler

Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Lort-Williams, J.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Preston, W. R.

Windsor, Viscount

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Winterton, Earl

Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir C. (Penrith)

Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

Wolmer, Viscount

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Remnant, Sir James

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Younger, Sir George

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

McNeill Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Rodger, A. K.

Sir F. Banbury and Sir W. H. Cowan.

Macquisten, F. A.

Rose, Frank H.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,
Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled,
"An Act to regulate the sale of clinical thermometers." [Clinical Thermometers Bill [Lords.]
Indian Affairs, "That they propose that the Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs do meet in Committee Room A on Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock."

INDIAN AFFAIRS.
So much of the Lords Message this day as relates to the place and time of meeting of the Joint Committee on Indian Affairs considered.
Ordered, "That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords
398
Committee as proposed by their Lordships."—[Colonel Gibbs.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
ISAAC FOOT, Esquire, for the County of Cornwall (Bodmin Division).
AGRICULTURE AMENDMENT BILL,
"to amend the First Schedule to the Agriculture Act, 1920," presented by Lieut.-Colonel ARTHUR MURRAY; supported by Mr. Gardiner, Major Howard, Mr. Royce, Sir Robert Thomas, and Major Mackenzie Wood; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 21st March, and to be printed. [Bill 43.]
NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS.

    SIR R. HORNE'S STATEMENT.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Sir Robert Home): I learn from the various organs of the Press that I am expected to-day to make some announcement with regard to taxation, and to deal in general with a position with which I shall naturally deal when I come to introduce the Budget. I need scarcely assure the House that such is in no wise my intention. I can scarcely imagine anything more imprudent than for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to announce, a month before we come to the end of the financial year, what the results are to be, or to make any statement with regard to the taxes which will be imposed in the course of the following year. I think that the House will agree that I ought not to be expected to make anything more than a very general statement in dealing with the recommendations which have been made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the Committee on National Expenditure. They have dealt with a very large variety of topics, and it will be obviously impossible to survey in the course of a single speech all the multifarous items on which they have made recommendations. It seems to me to be clear that the proper time for detailed discussion of what is suggested by the Geddes Committee would be the time when the Estimates are presented, and to-day I do not intend anything more than a very broad survey of the proposals which have been made to me by that Committee.
    I think that the Government is entitled to look with great gratification upon the reception which the Report of the Geddes Committee has obtained. When we suggested the setting up of this Committee, we were denounced in all quarters in the most unmeasured terms. The Committee was set up, it was said, merely to provide a shelter behind which we might hide our extravagant heads. A notorious prodigal, it was said, had been
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    deliberately selected as Chairman of the Committee in order to cover up our prodigality. Indeed, I think I recollect a public speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) in which, in a phrase which I may be permitted to describe as somewhat extravagant, he described the Chairman of the Committee as a Landru among Bluebeards. To-day this Committee, which was so uniformly traduced, is hailed by the very organs which vilified it as having performed a service to the country such as has been accomplished by no other Committee within living memory, and the Chairman, who has suffered from the abuse of these journals now for a long period of time, is hailed as the finest example this country has yet produced of the high aptitude of a business man applied to the service of the State. I recollect the leader of the Anti-Waste party in this House—perhaps that description requires definition—I was thinking for the moment of our most vocal economist, the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. E. Harmsworth). He complained very bitterly of this Committee as being composed largely of men over 70, yet I think his youthful attendances at this House have been entirely eclipsed by these men over 70, not a single one of whom has ever missed a single meeting of this Committee. I should like for my part to join whole-heartedly in the praise which has been given to the Committee. They have deserved the gratitude of the whole country. They have surveyed a wide field of problems of great complexity. They have brought to bear upon these problems the trained observation of business men, and as a result they have produced a Report which—I do not think I exaggerate—presents in a clearer, more connected, more comprehensive way the whole system of our national expenditure than exists in any other document to-day. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, I feel that I cannot adequately express my indebtedness to them. They were performing a task which, I quite agree, in ordinary circumstances would be the task of the Treasury. They were performing it for the benefit of the country in a very critical time, and they not only have given us very wise suggestions, but they did more. They created an atmosphere of a desire for economy which has affected all of the Departments of State, and it had the effect that these Departments responded

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    to the spirit in which the Committee met them, and, as you will find when you read the Report, a very large number of the economies which are now embodied in that Report were the spontaneous suggestions of the Departments themselves.
    It has been said that we were seeking to devolve the responsibility of the Government upon an irresponsible Committee. What a foolish criticism that is. How could any Government devolve upon any outside body the duty of saying what sized Navy was sufficient for our Empire, what were our needs in respect of military forces, what is the type of education, and the extent of it, which should be given to the children of our citizens? What is it that the House is awaiting to-day? It is the decision of the Government, and this matter is easier, no doubt, for us to decide now that these investigations have been made. The indications where economies can be effected are of the very greatest possible weight, and the advice which is given is most valuable and most useful, but the decision and the responsibility remain with the Government. It is for us to inform the House as to what we suggest should be done in the direction of carrying out the recommendations of this Committee. It is said by some that we must adopt the whole of these recommendations, that we set up the Committee, and as it has reported there is nothing left for us to do but to put their recommendations into force. That is an entirely novel doctrine, and it would be a most dangerous doctrine to adopt. If it ever became operative it would be an end either to Committees or to Government. Who will say in this House that all the recommendations of this Committee ought to be adopted here and now? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley has already openly declared that he is not prepared to accept the proposals which have been made with regard to reductions in the Education Vote, and I gather that hon. Members opposite agree with that point of view. Again, there are bodies of people in this House who equally take the view that we cannot afford to make the reductions in the Navy which were suggested by that Report. Probably, if you take the Members of this House individually, you would not get more than three or four who would agree together as to precisely what
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    recommendations they would wish to see adopted. Under these circumstances, it is for us to take into consideration the position in which we find ourselves at present, to weigh on the one side and the other our financial burdens and our obligations for the security and efficiency of this country, and to arrive at the wisest decision in our power to put before this House for its acceptance.
    As Chancellor of the Exchequer I asked the Geddes Committee to suggest reductions in public expenditure to the amount of £100,000,000. It has been said that that was a confession that waste to the-extent of £100,000,000 was going on in the Government services. That is a complete travesty of the facts. We have found ourselves in the most acute trade depression which has ever been known in this country. We were confronted with a falling revenue. There are many things which in normal times we should regard as necessary objects of expenditure in a great country like ours which under these conditions we might not be able to afford, and the prime object of the inquiry was to discover, through the means of the Committee, those services in which with the least detriment to the efficiency of the country, we could afford to economise. The figure of £100,000,000 was a round figure. It was a large one. I need scarcely say that in proposing it I had some margin in view. It did not occur to me that they would be able to provide the whole sum, and on the other hand it was equally certain to my mind that even if they made recommendations which would cover the whole of that amount, it was impossible to expect that every one of these recommendations could be adopted, and therefore I named a figure which was well outside the actual sum of money which I expected to save. There was another point of view from which I named this sum. It was that the Supplementary Estimates of the year had not yet come within my purview. They altered to some extent the account which was in, my mind. Now that we have the Report, I think that everyone who reads it fairly will agree that the recommendations have much more the effect of curtailing activities which in normal times we should keep alive than of discovering actual objects of waste. I am prepared to argue, that when the time comes upon the Estimates, and I will not go into detail now, but in most cases where you find a parti-

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    cular item of expenditure criticised on the ground that it is of no service to the country at all and is of the nature of wasteful expenditure, it is just the kind of expenditure which has lasted through Government after Government and for which previous Governments are as much responsible as we are.
    I turn to the details of the Report in so far as I can deal with them, and I hope the House will forgive me the recital of a good many figures. Obviously, I cannot deal with a subject of this kind without enlarging to some extent upon the figures with which the Geddes Committee themselves have dealt. The first thing I should like to say is this, that out of the reductions recommended by the Committee, totalling £86,000,000, some £66,000,000 are concerned with the three fighting services and education, leaving only £20,000,000 spread over the other Departments. Even of the £20,000,000 which are spread over the other Departments, £6,000,000 is concerned with the administration of the War Pensions Department. Therefore, when you deduct out of the reductions recommended in five Departments of the State there is only left £14,000,000 to be saved, according to the recommendations of the Geddes Committee, in regard to all the other Departments put together.

    EDUCATION.
    I propose to deal, in the first place, with the subject of education. The recommendation is for a reduction of £18,000,000 in the expenditure of the Education Departments. Part of that, really, is not a reduction in expenditure, but a transfer of obligations from taxes to rates. It is not a very large amount, but it is appreciable; it amounts to transferring about £3,000,000 from taxes to the rates. While that would be a reduction so far as the taxpayer is concerned, yet in the capacity of ratepayer I do not think he would be particularly grateful for it. The two items which in the main make up the £18,000,000 recommended by the Geddes Committee are the reduction in teachers' salaries and the exclusion of children from school below the age of six years. I wish to say a word upon both these matters. The Government have very carefully considered the recommendations of the Committee, and are of the view that neither of these proposals Can be put into operation.
    Mr. J. JONES: The red light.
    Sir R. HORNE: On the question of teachers' salaries I have only one observation to make, and I think the House will find it conclusive. The salaries which are paid to the teachers of this country to-day are, for the most part, or practically entirely, the result of engagements which have been entered into between the local authorities and the teaching staffs. These engagements subsist in the case of London until 1923, and in the case of the country at large until 1925. Accordingly, whatever view we take as to whether these salaries are too high or too low—the Geddes Committee have undoubtedly put on record their opinion that they are too high under modern conditions—and whatever be the correct point of view in regard to that, it is perfectly certain that the local authorities are under engagements with the teachers which cannot be broken without a violation of what is indeed a contract, and so far as the Government is concerned we cannot on our part, and would not, take any action which would have the effect of creating breaches of faith. It is quite certain that any Government which took part in what could fairly be regarded as the breaking of a contract and a breach of faith would set an example in this country which would be attended by serious consequences.
    An HON. MEMBER: What about agriculture?
    Mr. HARTSHORN: What about the miners?
    Sir R. HORNE: Now I turn to the other matter in connection with education, namely, the question of the exclusion of children from school under the age of six years. It is perfectly true that in this country we take children to school at an earlier age than in any other country in the world, and it might be contended that in these times of great monetary stringency it would be justifiable to alter that system and prevent children coming to school at so early an age. But we must all recognise what are the social effects of what we have done. There is no question at all that the health of the children of this country has been immensely improved by reason of the medical treatment and care which they get at school at these tender years, and at a time like this it would be nothing less

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    than a great injury to very many homes in this country if, where you have women battling with the difficulties of life, and trying to support their children, they were forced to keep their children away from school, where they at present get the only mothering and the only attention which is by any chance available. For these reasons, the Government has felt it impossible to recommend to the House that the proposals of the Geddes Committee in this matter should be adopted.
    The reductions in the realm of education which we adopt amount to £6,500,000 out of the £18,000,000 which the Geddes Committee recommend. That means that in the Education Department we are short of the recommended reductions by an amount of nearly £12,000,000 sterling. The main element in the £6,500,000—I shall only mention one, because the others are spread over the whole sphere of education in this country—is a contribution by the teachers to their superannuation fund. At the present time the teachers make no contribution at all to their superannuation fund. It is fair to say that the teachers' superannuation scheme was founded at a time when teachers' salaries were low. Since then the salaries have been very greatly increased, and the Government think that under present conditions, at least, it is only fair and right, looking to the stringency of the position, that the teachers should contribute a sum towards those funds which provide them with a pension when their work is done. The proposal is that this year, until the matter is further investigated, they should contribute 5 per cent, of their salary, and that works out in the aggregate to a sum of nearly £2,000,000.
    Mr. CLYNES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything with respect to the recommendation in the Geddes Report to increase the number of children in the classes?
    Sir R. HORNE: The Government is in favour of that being carried out in so far as it is practicable. In many cases one knows that by reason of the accommodation in the schools it is not practicable, but in these times, when we find great difficulty in meeting our obligations, everything that is feasible and reasonable ought to be adopted in order to reduce the amount of the country's expenses.

    NAVY.
    Now I turn to the question of the Navy. The Geddes Committee recommend a reduction of £21,000,000 in the Provisional Estimates which the Admiralty presented, and that without any regard to any savings which might be effected from the result of the Conference at Washington, or of any saving upon the provision of oil for naval services. The Admiralty have offered a saving of £21,000,000 including the savings which have been effected or may be effected owing to the Resolutions at Washington, and including also a certain saving upon supplies of oil. It is fair to put the amount represented by these two exceptions at the figure of £11,000,000. Therefore the comparable figure which the Admiralty sets up against the recommendations of the Geddes Committee is that of £10,000,000 against £21,000,000. There is this qualification to be made, that out of the £21,000,000 reduction recommended by the Geddes Committee only £14,000,000 is specified, and so far as the other £7,000,000 is concerned we are left to decide what might be the further elements on which it would be possible to economise. Indeed, it really amounts to this, that this is the kind of margin which might very rightly be represented by the savings effected at Washington. In any case comparing the specified reductions of the Geddes Committee and the reduction which the Admiralty has offered, there is only a difference of £4,000,000 between them. That difference, resolves itself almost entirely into a question of the number of the personnel of the Navy.
    5.0 P.M.
    The number of men in the Navy at the present time is 122,700. The Admiralty propose to reduce that number to 121,600 next year. The Geddes Committee propose a figure of 88,000 instead of 121,000. There has been some discussion as to the calculations upon which the Geddes Committee arrived at that conclusion. I have gone into the figures according to my capacity, and, as far as I can see, there is no error whatever in the calculations which the Geddes Committee made, but this point arises, that they arrived at their conclusion by comparing the proposed fleet of next year with the fleet of the pre-War period, and they took the proportion of men to be found in the fighting line of the pre-War fleet and then in the smaller ships, and they said: "We shall apply the same

    435
    proportion to the fleet of next year. You want so many men for your capital ships; therefore, applying the pre-War proportions, you will only want so many for the smaller ships." It is perfectly obvious that there is no real sequitur in that argument. The great use to which all kinds of small craft can be put has been maintained as one of the lessons of the War. Accordingly the Admiralty cannot agree with such an argument. The Admiralty now agree to a figure of 98,000 men, and it is upon that basis that they offer the reductions from the Estimate to which I have referred. That is a difference of 10,000 in personnel as between the Geddes Report and the Admiralty. The Government, after considering the whole matter, have come to the conclusion that they cannot insist upon a reduction of the Navy below a figure of 98,000. That figure compares with the personnel of 151,000 in the fleet before the War, so that they are bringing down the number by a full third. It compares also with a figure of 129,000 in the United States fleet to-day, allowing for a recent reduction which they have made. It is true that we have a reserve of seafaring men on our shores such as they have not got in the United States. At the same time I do not think that we are in a position to say, looking at these numbers, that we ought to insist upon the Admiralty performing all the services which this great Empire requires at its hands with less than the 98,000 men which they prescribe.
    Mr. GIDEON MURRAY: Are these men to be reduced by the 31st of March?
    Sir R. HORNE: Obviously, it would be impossible to bring about the reduction in so short a time as that. I shall have something to say later as to the effect of the lag of the reductions upon the amount of money that will be available next year. Meantime the answer to my hon. Friend's question is in the negative. We have to remember, in dealing with our Fleet in relation to others, that our Empire, more than any other, is scattered about the face of the terrestrial globe, and that the maintenance of our power at sea is of more importance to us for our mere livelihood than to any other population upon the globe. We cannot forget that consideration when we come to estimate the
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    expenditure upon our greatest service. It is only because of the great achievements that have been accomplished at the Conference at Washington that we are able to do even what is now proposed. It is not merely that the conclusions which were reached at Washington enable us to stop the building of two of the four ships which we have set in hand. Much more than that. Suppose we had had no Washington Conference, the results of which we now know, the attitude towards each other of the nations of the world would have been such that we should have been bound to make greater provision than we are making to-day. I hope that there are still more results to come out of these great conventions which were signed at Washington. I believe that in the course of the next year we may, by further investigations and by further agreements and by greater knowledge of what other Powers are doing, be able to effect still greater reductions in expenditure of the Navy than we are agreeing to at the present time.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Are you dealing with the financial reduction recommended by the Geddes Committee due to the reduced cost of living?
    Sir R. HORNE: I do not think that my hon. and gallant Friend has quite followed what they say on that topic. They say that if the cost of living falls, as they expect it to do—and it is somewhat below the figure of 100 per cent, which previously had been taken as a measure—there may be further economies to be discovered, but they do not say that at the present time they can discover more economies by having regard to the cost of living.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: That comes into salaries?
    Sir R. HORNE: Yes. The question of salaries will come into that consideration.

    ARMY.
    On the question of the Army, the Geddes Committee recommend a reduction of £20,000,000 on the provisional Estimate, or £22,500,000 if we include the Middle East. But again I have this remark to make, that there is no full specification which will give a figure of £22,500,000. As in the case of the Navy, so in the case of the Army there are

    437
    £7,000,000 of recommended reductions which are not specified in the Report. Therefore, so far as specified reductions are concerned, the position is that, including the Middle East, the reduction recommended is £15,500,000. In response to the inquiries of the Committee on National Expenditure, the Secretary of State for War made a great and valiant effort in the War Office for a reduction of its Estimates. He was assisted by my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary, in so far as he was concerned with the operations which are going on in the; Middle East, but in the result the War Office suggested a reduction of £17,000,000, as against the figure of £15,500,000 specified by the Geddes Committee. It is true that that £17,000,000 is not entirely comparable with the £15,500,000. In some cases the War Office give reductions where the Geddes Committee do not suggest any. In other cases it is the other way about. £1,500,000 are got by taking advantage of Appropriations-in-Aid for the troops on the Rhine, but roughly, in so far as they are specified, the War Office are giving the same reductions as are recommended by the Geddes Committee.
    The difference, in so far as it exists, between the Committee and the War Office arises, just as in the case of the Navy, on the question of numbers. The Committee recommend a reduction of 54,000 men. The War Office accept a reduction of 33,000 men. After an examination of the figures, it was discovered that the 54,000 recommended by the Geddes Committee was based upon a misapprehension, not due to any fault of the Committee, but due to a change of mind, after evidence had been given, on the part of the Indian Government as to their necessities in the shape of British troops. That factor alters the whole calculation, and upon the basis of the calculation which the Geddes Committee was making, by which they arrived at a figure of 54,000, the number was reduced to a figure of 39,000. So the War Office is offering a reduction of 33,000 men as against a reduction, of 39,000 based upon the calculations of the Committee on Expenditure.
    I would ask the House to see how far the War Office and the Government have gone in meeting the demand for a reduction of expenditure. The reduction by
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    the War Office amounts to cancelling 24 battalions of the line and the equivalent of five cavalry regiments, and it reduces the artillery by 40 per cent. Some idea of what this means will be obtained if I make two observations. In the first place, the size of the Army now, in so far as it is composed of British troops not stationed in India, and exclusive of Colonial or native troops, will be reduced from the pre-War numbers by 20,000 men. There were 172,800 men in the Army before the War. These will now be reduced to 152,800 men. The result is that, instead of the six divisions which we were able to send overseas at the beginning of the War, we should only be able to send now two divisions in the first month if any emergency arises; the third, fourth, and fifth divisions, obviously would take some time to get together. But I am sure that, when these figures are looked at, no Member of the House will be inclined to say that we have not gone far enough in reducing the military forces of the Crown.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Cut down education and leave the Army.
    Sir R. HORNE: We have to remember the great obligations which rest upon us to-day. We cannot forget the unrestful condition of the world, and the disturbed condition of many of the great regions in which the British Empire is especially interested at the present time. With these obligations in view the Government are not in a position to recommend any further reduction in the expenditure of the War Office.

    ROYAL AIR FORCE.
    I will turn now briefly to the question of the Air Force. There the cut recommended was £5,500,000, but, as before, £1,000,000 of that was unspecified. The Air Minister proposed a reduction of £3,000,000. So the comparison is as between £3,000,000 on the one hand and £4,500,000 on the other. The Air Force have made great efforts to economise. They are reducing the £18,500,000 of Estimates of this year to £10,500,000 in the next year, giving a reduction of 43 per cent. It may be questioned, as I gather from some hon. Members behind me, whether we are not running great risks in going so far in these reductions. We have looked at the problem, weighing on the one hand the necessities of our

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    country and on the other hand the position of financial stringency in which we find ourselves, and we give these recommendations to the House as those which, we believe, can be most justified in the conditions in which we now are.

    MINISTRY OF DEFENCE.
    It was suggested by the Geddes Committee that there should be set up a Ministry of Defence. That would not, at least immediately, have the result of bringing about great economies in the public service, and it is obviously a matter which requires very careful investigation and great consideration before any plan can be adopted, while in the meantime the whole question is to come up for consideration at the Committee of Imperial Defence, and we cannot make any recommendation in that sense to the House.

    MINISTRIES OF LABOUR AND HEALTH.
    There are three other Departments dealt with in the First Report of the Committee. Those are the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Health and the Department of War Pensions. With regard to the Ministry of Labour, the Geddes Committee made no recommendation for any reduction at all, but the Ministry itself is reducing its expenditure from £22,000,000 in this year to £14,000,000 next year. The Committee, however, did recommend that consideration should be given to the amalgamation of health insurance and unemployment insurance, with a view to economy and also, at the same time, paving the way, as they suggest, for the abolition of the Ministry of Labour. I do not desire to say anything upon the merits of that at the present time. As an old Minister of Labour I could say a good deal on that matter, but the question which is raised, as to how proper economy might be achieved by amalgamating health and unemployment insurance, is obviously one which should be dealt with, and preparations are being made for the purpose of making a complete investigation as to the possibility of carrying out some such scheme. As regards the Ministry of Health, the reduction proposed was £2,100,000, and that has been accepted. It is true that, in point of fact, it is not all achieved by precisely the same method as is suggested by the Geddes Committee, but we get
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    the same amount by way of reduction in the cost. They make two other important recommendations with regard to the Ministry of Health. They suggest that means should be taken to carry out the sale of many of the houses built under the Ministry of Health, and on that recommendation the Government entirely concur, and they have authorised the Minister of Health to proceed in so far as it is necessary to remove statutory restrictions on sale. The other suggestion they make is for an increased contribution on health insurance. That also the Government has adopted, the increase being in the amount per head per week of one halfpenny from the 1st July this year.

    WAR PENSIONS.
    I come to the subject of war pensions. The war pensions administration themselves put forward suggestions for a reduction in their expenditure of £6,000,000 and these have been adopted both by the Geddes Committee and the Government. I ought to assure the House that will not involve any diminution in the pension to which any pensioner is entitled. The saving is entirely effected by economies in the working of the Department itself.
    TRADE AND AGRICULTURE.
    I turn now to the Second Report which deals for the most part with trade and agriculture, and I shall survey the proposals of the Committee and the Government recommendations as rapidly as I can. In the trade group, the reduction recommended is £538,000, and we have accepted a reduction of £495,000, making a difference of £43,000. There are certain items in connection with this Second Report which I think I ought to bring to the notice of the House. With regard to some of them, questions have already been asked me and I will try to answer them now in the course of my speech.

    MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
    The first item with which I deal is the Ministry of Transport. There are no recommendations made for a further reduction of the expenses in connection with the Ministry of Transport. In the present year the Estimate has been £403,000, and the revised Estimate for next year is £243,000, and that is accepted by the Committee on National Expenditure. Since that the Department has suggested further economies and the Estimate has

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    been brought down to £211,000. The Geddes Committee recommended that the Ministry should be transferred to the Board of Trade. That may ultimately be the right thing to do, but there are many things which the Ministry of Transport have still to wind up. There are many things which can, by statute, only be done by the Minister. There is now an acting Minister of Transport, but he is not costing the country anything, because he is doing the work gratuitously. There will be no saving in transferring to the Board of Trade at the present time, except that which would be involved in the salary of the Under-Secretary. That is the whole saving which would be effected.
    If it were quite certain that the Board of Trade is the best home for whatever Ministry conducts the operation of transport, then we might resolve now that the transfer should take place, but we do not think the matter is so clear. There are many things which the Ministry of Transport docs at the present time which could not suitably be performed in the Board of Trade at all. For example, they deal with the question of roads, and roads certainly do not come within the ordinary purview of the operations of the Board of Trade. They would be much better dealt with really under the Ministry of Health, which deals with local authorities. —[Interruption.]—I am suggesting to hon. Members considerations which show that it would be unwise to arrive at sudden conclusions at the present time, as to how you are going to deal with this Ministry. We think it would be better to take some time to consider the whole matter in connection with what we must consider soon, namely, a large reorganisation of Government Departments. There might be much to be said, for example, in favour of uniting the Ministry of Transport with the Post Office, and having a Ministry of Communications. I do not know whether that recommends itself to anybody, but it has been strongly urged. I am only suggesting that to show that there may be many points of view, and it would be better to get the right one rather than to act precipitately now.

    DEPARTMENT OF OVERSEAS TRADE.
    I turn to the Department of Overseas Trade. The Committee recommended that it should be abolished. The whole saving by its abolition would be £94,000
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    in the year, because they do not recommend that the people who are now working for the Department of Overseas Trade in the various countries of the world should cease to perform their functions, or that the commercial attachés in our embassies and consulates throughout the globe should be abolished. That expense will continue, and therefore the whole saving to be achieved by carrying out this recommendation would be £94,000. This is a matter which requires the most careful consideration. In the course of the last fortnight I have received the most urgent representations from the most powerful bodies of business men begging me to urge the Government not to do away with the Department of Overseas Trade. They tell me that since it was introduced they have for the first time had a real means of getting the best information from foreign countries for carrying on those trading operations on which the success of this country and its export trade depends. It is not only the traders of this country. Our people in our Dominions are equally agitated about the suggestion. I have several cablegrams in my hand.
    Mr. KILEY: From overseas representatives?
    Sir R. HORNE: Not at all. I will give ray hon. Friend the information he requires. Here, from Sydney, is a cablegram from the Executive of the Australian Association of British Manufacturers, representing over 2,000 firms:
    "We view with alarm the Geddes Committee recommendations as to the abolition of the Overseas Trade Department. We appreciate the importance and value of the services which have been rendered by the Trade Commissioners, and consider the proposal to be suicidal. We emphatically urge the continuance of the Department in the light of the need for the re-establishment of British trade in Australia."
    Similar cablegrams come from many other parts, and at a time when trade is in the abyss of depression, and when we ought to do all we can to help its revival, we think it would be a great misfortune to do away with the instrument which the traders of this country and those who trade with them beyond the seas, regard as a most useful link in the conduct of their operations. We are, however, going to cut down the cost of administration to the lowest possible limit, and instead of the £94,000 which the Geddes Committee

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    proposes to save, we shall be in a position to save a sum of £48,000, the difference being £46,000.

    DEPARTMENT OF MINES.
    Somebody asked me a question upon the Department of Mines. The Geddes Committee recommended that it should be dissolved into all the original elements from which it was composed, and go back to the various Departments from which its particular officers came. Deliberate consideration of that suggestion discloses, I think, that we could not economise by such an operation. I have no doubt whatever, and I have a good deal of experience of the Department of Mines, that we should only increase expense by splitting up that Department. At the present moment it is being conducted most economically, and the Geddes Committee makes no recommendation or no statement to the effect that there has been any extravagance. What we propose, however, is that it should become an integral part of the Board of Trade, and that the Minister who at present acts as Secretary to the Mines Department should be one of the Under-Secretaries of the Board of Trade.

    FORESTRY DEPARTMENT.
    I turn now to the subject of forestry. The Committee on National Expenditure recommended that the Forestry Department be abolished. The Department itself has not been very long in existence, and if we abolished it now, we should lose the results of £107,000 of expenditure which the Department has embarked upon in the conduct of forestry operations. We should also have to give compensation to officers who are established in that Department, and we should still have considerable expenditure in carrying on some of the functions of the Forestry Department by the Office of Woods and Forests and the Board of Agriculture. Taking all these things into consideration, and especially having in view that the Forestry Department will only cost the Exchequer next year a sum of £40,000 because they have savings in hand which will make up the difference, we have determined to carry on the Department of Forestry in the meantime. It would be, I think, a misfortune if we hurriedly came to a conclusion which would have the result that
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    Great Britain, of all the countries of the world, would be the only country which has not a Department to deal with forestry.

    AGRICULTURAL GROUPS.
    As to the agricultural groups which fall in the Second Report, the reductions recommended there were £855,000, and we have accepted reductions to the amount of £642,000. I shall tell the House in three or four sentences where the differences occur. The Geddes Committee recommended a great reduction in the amount devoted to education and research, and the method by which they made up the sum which was to be applied to these purposes was by taking a portion of the grant which the Government gave under the Corn Production (Repeal) Act to make up for the necessities of providing sufficient education and research connected with agriculture next year. There was one fatal blot in that proposal, and it was this. We were under pledge by the Corn Production (Repeal) Act not merely to give that grant to the agricultural industry of this country, but to give it in addition to what was already applied for the purposes of education and research. Accordingly, the saving which the Geddes Committee proposed in respect of that item cannot be effected.
    The other two main items on which their proposals cannot be accepted are these. They recommended a reduction of £32,000 for dealing with animals' diseases, but, as the House knows, since the Geddes Committee reported there has been an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in this country, which has not only used up whatever there was in that respect, but gives us, I fear, no hope that we are going to be able to make any reduction upon that particular part of the account in the immediate future. On the contrary, it is much more likely to result in a very considerable addition. Then they recommended a reduction of £27,000 in connection with the sums applied for the encouragement of horse breeding, but I think it is agreed by all the people who have been dealing with the matter that this sum had already been promised, and therefore cannot now be withdrawn. So much for agriculture.

    POLICE AND PRISONS.
    On the question of police and prisons, the reduction recommended was

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    £1,599,000, and the reduction agreed is £1,253,000. These reductions are got, however, in a different way from that recommended by the Committee on National Expenditure. In the main, they suggested that the reductions should be got by reductions in the pay of the police. It has been represented to us that similar reductions can be obtained, and more easily, by dealing with the allowances of the police rather than with their pay at the present time, and, accordingly, we have accepted a plan, proposed by the Home Secretary and the Secretary for Scotland, by which a reduction of almost the same amount can be got by the means which I have described.
    Sir J. REMNANT: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the Desborough Committee, which dealt with the police administration, did not make many recommendations which would of themselves save the country large sums of money without impairing the efficiency of the police or drawing away from their pensions or pay—recommendations which have never been carried out?
    Sir R. HORNE: If there are such recommendations, I am afraid I am not aware of them, and I would suggest that my hon. Friend should raise that question when we come to the Estimates for the Home Office.
    Viscountess ASTOR: May I ask if it has been definitely decided by the Government to do away with all women police?
    Sir R. HORNE: I believe that is so.
    Sir J. D. REES: Are these women police, when abolished, to be all pensioned for life?
    Viscountess ASTOR: You are pensioned.
    Sir R. HORNE: These are questions of detail which I cannot now go into.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order! It is not fair for hon. Members to interrupt in this way.
    Sir R. HORNE: Summing up the Second Report, the reductions recommended were £3,590,000 and we have decided on a sum amounting to £2,973,000.
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    On the Third Report I shall be very brief. There they recommend reductions to the amount of £8,750,000. The Report was only very recently in our hands, and not all of the items have yet been completely investigated, but I can assure the House that we shall have a saving of at least £8,500,000 out of the £8,750,000, and I think probably we shall get it all. Of that amount £3,000,000 will be due to economies which the Colonial Secretary has effected in the Middle East, and £2,500,000 on the Post Office.

    PERCENTAGE AND BLOCK GRANTS
    There is one matter of general interest which the Geddes Committee dealt with, and which I will only mention in passing. They have taken very particular notice of the system of percentage grants which exists in this country at the present time, and they attribute to that system much of the expenditure which now, unfortunately, has been increasing so largely in this country. They say that when you give a percentage grant there is no inducement, or not so much inducement, to the local authorities to economise, because they say, "We can build this magnificent building for a half of what it is going to cost, because the Government is going to pay the other half," and obviously there is not the same reason for their adopting economies which would be wise in the circumstances, and accordingly it is recommended that we should get rid of this system of percentage grants and turn to a system of block grants. The system of percentage grants was adopted in this country on very high authority. There were great civil servants who recommended it. Moreover, a Committee which sat, I think, before the War thought the system of block grants would be impracticable. We do not propose to leave the matter there. It is obviously a matter which requires consideration and complete investigation, with the evidence of experts upon the whole question, and we propose to set up a Committee at once which will go into the matter and report to the Government.

    SUMMARY OF REDUCTIONS.
    I may, I think, sum up the result of this somewhat discursive survey. The Committee on National Expenditure recommended a reduction in Votes of £86,000,000, and that is exclusive of what might occur as the result of the conversa-

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    tions at Washington. I deduct from that £86,000,000 the amount of savings which were unspecified. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] The reason why is this, that when you have done your best to get all the savings that are in sight at the moment, if there is no specification of the particular other savings which might possibly, be achieved, you can scarcely be blamed if they do not occur to your own mind, although you ought to try your-utmost to find other possibilities of economy, but the House, I am sure, appreciates the way in which I am stating the problem. I deduct the unspecified savings, and I reach a figure of £71,000,000.
    We accept in all—this is a summation of what I have been eaying—£64,000,000, but that £64,000,000 includes the £10,000,000 attributable to the possible savings as the result of the Washington Conference and the £1,000,000 possible saving on the supply of oil. That brings me down to £53,000,000, and the difference between the figure of £71,000,000 and £53,000,000 is £18,000,000. Of that £18,000,000, £12,000,000 is represented by the savings which the Geddes Committee recommended, but which we do not accept, in respect of education, so that, if I take my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley as a representative critic of the Government in respect to what it has done, there is only £6,000,000 between us, even if we had done everything which the Geddes Committee recommend, and of which my right hon. Friend would approve. I am taking it for the moment as if my right hon. Friend approved of everything in the Reports except the recommendations in regard to education, but even upon that footing—
    Mr. ASQUITH: You have deducted the unspecified savings.
    Sir R. HORNE: Yes, and the right hon. Gentleman may make what point he likes of that. I do not think he will make very much of it, but perhaps he will specify. On the footing on which I have stated the problem, at the worst there is only a difference of £6,000,000 between the right hon. Gentleman's point of view and the Government, but I do not say that that is going to be the limit of our efforts. We mean to go on with this investigation, and we mean to see that
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    every possible method is adopted by which Departments can effect further savings in their services.
    I confidently anticipate that as the result of what we shall be able to do in the coming year, we shall be able to present an account of far greater saving for the year which is to follow it. Generally, so far as the Government are concerned, we mean to use all our efforts to that end. I come back to a question which was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for the St. Rollox Division of Glasgow (Mr. G. Murray)—how much of this £64,000,000 will be realised in the next year? We shall have to take off from that figure, just as the Geddes Committee would have required to deduct from theirs, a certain sum which will represent the savings not immediately effective. We cannot dismiss your men from the Army and Navy and dockyards all upon a given day, and, therefore, there must be, however much of the Report we take, a considerable lag in the saving. I estimate—it is only a rough estimate—the deduction which ought to be made from the full figure of the year at £10,000,000. By the savings which we expect to effect through the advice of the Geddes Committee, and the operations of the Departments, we shall be able to reduce the Provisional Estimate put previously before us by £54,000,000 in the next financial year. I have no doubt that some hon. Member may remind me to-day that I asked the Geddes Committee to provide £100,000,000 of savings. I have described to you what that figure was, and how I arrived at it.

    SAVINGS ALREADY EFFECTED.
    Now I should like the House to know what we actually have in anticipation in the way of savings between the Estimates of the present financial year and the Estimates of the next financial year. I am dealing at this moment only with the ordinary Supply services. That is all with which the Geddes Report deals. The Estimates for the present year for ordinary Supply services, including in these Estimates the Supplementary Estimates, amount to £665,000,000. As a result of the reductions, of which I have been speaking, obtained through the counsel of the Geddes Committee, and through the activities of the Departments, I think that the Estimates for the next financial year may be reckoned at a sum of £484,000,000; that is to say, a figure

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    of £181,000,000 less than the Estimates for the present year. I venture to put to the House that that is a great achievement. It is not achieved yet, as my right hon. Friend says, but I am assuming that we are able to carry out the proposals which I have been putting before you.
    A great deal of talk with regard to economy by the critics of the Government has been on the footing that we have done nothing up to now, and that only as a despairing effort, when we were drifting on the rocks, did we appoint the Geddes Committee. I hope hon. Members will not repeat that kind of fallacy in their constituencies again. I mean to enlighten them as to what the actual facts are. These are the facts:
    In 1918–19, which contained eight months of war and four months of peace, our Gross Supply services took £2,965,000,000.
    In 1919–20, we had reduced that sum to £1,690,000,000—a reduction of £1,275,000,000.
    In the year 1920–21, we had reduced the figure for these services to £1,015,000,000, making a reduction for that year of £675,000,000, and,
    In the current year, my estimate is that these services will cost us £825,000,000, or a reduction of £190,000,000.
    I have already disclosed to the House that I anticipate from the ordinary Supply services next year I shall get a further reduction of £181,000,000 compared with the present year.
    That is a record incomparable in the world at the present time. There is no other country which has made efforts in the least like it, or which has achieved nearly so much. There are many criticisms that we are still keeping War Departments going, where limpets cling, where they do nothing but go to sleep, and it seemed to be assumed that it was possible for us to get rid of all the War Departments as soon as the Armistice came. I wonder if the House realises what has been taking place in connection with these so-called War Departments. They were created to carry on business which there was no Department to conduct. We took control of enormous amounts of material in this country. We were preparing for a continuance of the War, and we had in hand, at the time the
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    War ceased, enormous stocks. The Disposal Board since the Armistice has sold £600,000,000 worth of material. Was that to be done without a staff? Let anybody who has ever been connected with an ordinary liquidation of even a comparatively small company consider the time which elapses before you can put it into liquidation, and the number of people you have to employ if you are to save the assets of the company. Were we to leave all that property derelict? If so, the country would have been a loser to the extent of £600,000,000. The Food Ministry has sold since the Armistice £550,000,000 worth. The Wheat Commission has sold £370,000,000 worth. The Sugar Commission has sold £160,000,000 worth of sugar, and the Shipping Ministry £91,000,000 worth of shipping.
    I am sure that the House will agree with me that that was an enormous undertaking. I know no business in the world which has ever compared, or could compare, with it, and be it noted that throughout the Geddes Report, whatever criticisms you may find, you will discover no comment which suggests that these Departments have been extravagantly managed for the results which they have achieved. But the House will readily realise it is the last saving which is the hardest to attain. The first saving is comparatively easy. It is when you get near the bone that your difficulties really arise, and now we have to realise in this country that there are many services which, in normal times, we would choose to carry on which, under present conditions, we must realise will have to be curtailed in their activities, or perhaps disappear altogether.
    But we have no reason to despair. Our burdens at the present time are no doubt very heavy, and our anxieties which arise through trade depression are very great; but while we have been confronted with great difficulties during recent times, we may recognise with gratification that our financial system is to-day, amidst all the vicissitudes of the world, proving its soundness and stability, with the result that of all the countries in Europe, we are in the best position to take advantage of any revival of trade which may occur. Our currency has been steadily rising in value, with the result that we have more power to-day to purchase all the food and

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    raw material which we require for our own need. Our Government securities— although this matter, to some extent, is connected with the fact that there is a lack of enterprise at the present time—have risen, with the favourable result that we shall not need to find next year so much money for sinking fund charges and for cognate charges. [An HON. MEMBER: "What will be the saving?"] I would rather not say, but altogether the situation at the present time is more hopeful, and more favourable than we could have anticipated a few months ago, and, in spite of all the burdens and anxieties which still remain with us, as a result of the War and its consequences, I am confident that these anxieties are no longer so menacing as they were, and that we shall emerge from them with success.
    6.0 P.M.
    Mr. ASQUITH: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman most heartily on the dexterity with which he has managed, more or less at any rate, to keep his balance in a highly embarrassing position. The situation is one of embarrassment to the Government, and one of impotence for the House of Commons. We have here a formal and colourless Motion on which we can talk, but on which we can give no effective decision. The proceedings to-day are very much in the nature of the proceedings of a debating society. The right hon. Gentleman has traversed the ground with great, but not at all excessive, copiousness, and with—if he will allow me to say so—much lucidity. But the salient fact which emerges from the long and labyrinthine array of very necessary figures, is that it has been found possible, first by an appeal to the spontaneous initiative of the Departments, and next from the stimulating suggestiveness of the Geddes Committee—an extra Parliamentary, extra-Departmental instrument—and by the operation of public and electorate opinion—as, I say, the combined result of these forces it has been found possible for the right hon. Gentleman to tell us he can make a reduction, or a proposed reduction—the two are not quite the same—which, as I gather from his concluding statement, will amount to £180,000,000 for the supply services. I should like, before I make any further
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    comment, to be quite clear that we understand the statement of my right hon. Friend—he will correct me if I am wrong.
    The inference I draw from what I heard is this: that whereas the Geddes Report recommends reductions of £86,000,000, of which £15,000,000 are unspecified, and, therefore, apparently, according to the right hon. Gentleman to be left out of account, I take the figure of the right hon. Gentleman and deduct the unspecified £15,000,000, leaving £71,000,000. This does not include the savings that may result from the Washington Conference. He says we have accepted £64,000,000, including the £11,000,000 which are due to the Washington Conference, making a net result of £53,000,000 against £71,000,000. It is very important we should get these figures right. Take the accepted figure of £64,000,000. I assume you have to add to that the £75,000,000 referred to in the Geddes Report which the Departments spontaneously save, making a total of £139,000,000; or if you take the lower figure of £53,000,000 you get a total of £128,000,000. Then to my mind a puzzle remains. You have a total of £139,000,000, the combined savings of the Departments spontaneously offered, and under the Geddes Report, so far as accepted, and the right hon. Gentleman makes a total saving of £181,000,000.
    Sir R. HORNE: The right hon. Gentleman is really not comparing the same things. The deductions which have been dealt with by the Departments and by the Geddes Committee were originally Estimates which these Departments were making for next year. The £181,000,000, on the other hand, is a comparison with all the Estimates of this year, plus the Supplementary Estimates, with the Estimates for next year. My right hon. Friend will follow that the original Estimates had added to them, necessarily, Supplementary Estimates, in order to show what, was the full estimated expenditure of this year. So that figure compared with the anticipated Estimate for last year yields the difference or £181,000,000, but, as he will realise, what the Geddes Committee dealt with was the total difference altogether of the Provisional Estimates for the Departments for next year.
    Mr. ASQUITH: I understand. This £165,000,000 includes the Supplementary Estimates.
    Sir R. HORNE: Yes, it includes the Supplementary Estimates.
    Mr. ASQUITH: I have a glimmering; there is now more light than before. I still, however, find the gaps unbridged and unexplained between the total savings that the right hon. Gentleman explained from the joint operation expected from the Geddes Report and the Departments. I am only asking the right hon. Gentleman these questions for information, but he alleges that by spontaneous departmental action, quickened and supplemented by an outside committee, you bring down in the course of 12 months national expenditure by no less than £181,000,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "After the War."] A long time after the War; nearly four years after. If you can do that, why was it not done before?
    I do not regard the Report of the Geddes Committee as inspired. I am far from committing myself to all its conclusions, but, as the right hon. Gentleman has very truly said, I think it is one of the most valuable contributions of our time to the question of our national expenditure under these abnormal conditions. Without in any way accepting the verbal inspiration of the Geddes Report, taking that Report and the action of the Departments of the Government, the two present a formidable indictment, one of the most formidable indictments ever made against a Government of waste and extravagance. Let me make a distinction, not merely a verbal distinction, but a very important one. I think the House on the discussion of financial matters should always bear in mind the distinction between waste and extravagance. You may have waste, even in private concerns, and perhaps still more in national finance. You may have waste, though you are rich or prosperous, and though your revenue is well in excess of your expenditure, in spending on overgrown and overstaffed establishments, either for military or civil services, you may have waste as a concomitant incident to a thoroughly prosperous revenue-producing country. Extravagance comes in when a country is spending beyond what you actually and prospectively can pay for. When
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    you have reached, as we have reached, or very nearly, the limit, the ultimate limit, of possible taxation, then you must cut down as extravagance—not as waste, but as extravagance—forms of spending which an overflowing revenue, or an adequate revenue, could very easily bear. The Geddes Report teems with examples of both. Just let me read—and these are figures not disputed, and which cannot be disputed, by the right hon. Gentleman:
    "The staffing and use of the man power in the Army to-day"—
    Man power, not money, for money values change—
    "is on a far less economical basis than it was before the War."
    Then it is extravagant. Again, I am reading from another passage in the Report—
    "We are convinced from our survey of the War Office Estimates that there is great room for economy in men and money."—
    More significant is a passage which precedes in the same volume of the book—
    "We must record a very marked impression derived from long conference of the Departmental representatives of the three fighting services. The Estimates provide that in the year 1923, the fifth year after the Armistice was signed, with a broken and exhausted Europe, with no German menace, we are to have far greater fighting power, with a larger personnel, and greater preparations for war than ever before in our history."
    That is the considered judgment of the Geddes Committee, after examining the representatives of the Departments. That is the real indictment. It appears to me that the Government have no answer to the Geddes Report, after all qualifications, modifications, and adjustments have been considered. The Chancellor of the Exchequer wraps himself from time to time, I will not say in a complacent, but in a self-compassionating pessimism. It is worse than pessimism; it is fatalism. He told us the other day that
    "The situation has been too much for us all."
    Who created the situation? I quite agree that the War created and bequeathed a heritage of a most embarrassing kind. The position has been very much accentuated by deliberate and perverse short-sightedness. The right hon. Gentleman says, "You forget, you critics, that we have a dead weight of £500,000,000

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    to meet every year in discharge of the new obligations which the War has placed upon us." We do not forget anything of the kind. That was the case in 1918, and it has been the case ever since, and if ever there was a reason which called upon those who were responsible for the conduct of our affairs for the most rigorous, vigilant and even meticulous economy, it is the fact that they had to provide every year in the shape of that £500,000,000 of war debt and war pensions a sum which is two-and-a-half times the total revenue of the country in the year before the War broke out. With this enormous load hanging around the taxpayer's neck, or, at any rate, burdening his shoulders, the Government has added gratuitously to its weight by their adventures in Russia, Iraq and the Middle East. In this way they have deliberately added to its weight, and we are suffering, now to the extent of £681,000,000. That, I think, is the moral which this Debate will bring home to the taxpayers of the country.
    I should now like to say two or three words on some of the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given. It is impossible without any papers before us of any sort or kind, except the Geddes Report, to carry these figures in one's head. I should, however, like to make two or three observations on some of the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given under particular headings. With regard to Education, I acknowledge that I am much reassured. I stated my own views and so did some of my hon. Friends on that part of the Geddes Report in the Debate on the Amendment to the Address. I think the proposal to raise the age of school attendance to six years was a suicidal one, and I am heartily glad that the Government has given it the go-bye. I cannot imagine anything which would have been more enfeebling and demoralising to our population.
    I am a little anxious at the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman took in regard to the increase in the size of classes. I am stating a mere truism when I say that everybody concerned with the practice and administration of education knows that one of the largest strides in advance which we have taken with a view of making education not a mere form but a reality is in the reduction of the
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    size of classes bringing individual pupils into actual personal and direct contact with the teachers. I remember myself when I was a small boy going to a school in which the lower classes consisted of 50 or 60 boys. We had very good masters, but no master in the world, however skilled or however experienced, could deal with a body of boys like that in such a way as to make their daily training really effective. Of course boys vary infinitely in capacity. Some of them get the benefit and others are left behind.
    One of the greatest improvements that has been made in our system of national education is reducing the size of the classes, and, as the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged, the new schools and the better schools are structurally not adapted and cannot be adapted to increasing the size of the classes. I also agree as to the importance of maintaining the bargain made with the teachers, although it is not strictly a bargain for which the Government are responsible, but the local authorities. The Government have decided not to step in or undermine those authorities, and with the manner in which the Government have dealt with that part of the Geddes Report I heartily concur.
    With regard to the fighting services, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to tell me whether I am right or wrong in my figures. I am now taking into account the reductions which he has accepted or substituted for those suggested in the Geddes Report. I make out, on a hasty survey, that the Navy, on the reduced basis, will cost about £60,000,000, the Army £58,000,000 and the Air Service £10,000,000, making the total of £128,000,000.
    Sir R. HORNE: Roughly, that is so.
    Mr. ASQUITH: In round figures I might say the amount is about £130,000,000. I want to know, does that include the cost of Iraq, Palestine, Constantinople, Egypt and the Middle East?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): It is £121,000,000 without that.
    Mr. ASQUITH: So that £10,000,000 has been added for those purposes. I understand that Egypt is included.
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
    Mr. ASQUITH: These are very startling and formidable figures. Here we find that, four years after the War, our fighting services are costing us £130,000,000, and the right hon. Gentleman is not in a position to give us any assurance of a speedy reduction to a lower figure. As I pointed out the other day, it seems to me and to most of us to be a monstrous thing in all the years that have passed since the War when all the great armies of Europe have either practically disappeared with two or three exceptions—[HON. MEMBERS: "France!"]—yes, I say with two or three exceptions which I gave the other day, when the armies of our late enemies have been reduced to comparatively shadowy and almost incalculable proportions, we are still maintaining a force which is a great deal more than anything we ever dreamt of before the War. I see the Lord President of the Council here, and I am sure he will agree with me when I say that one of the great drawbacks to the success of the Conference at Washington to which the right hon. Gentleman contributed so largely, as we are all ready gratefully to acknowledge, by his tact, his diplomatic skill and his real enthusiasm for the cause of peace—one of the great drawbacks was that nothing was done, and nothing could be done, for the reduction of land armaments on the Continent of Europe. I think this Debate will have served a useful purpose if some spokesman of the Government is able to give us an assurance that whether it be at the forthcoming Conference at Genoa, or by any other machinery, this problem is going to be settled seriously and in the same spirit, and I hope with the same effect, as the naval problem was handled by those at Washington. Only in that way can we really relieve Europe and the world from this paralysing and sterilising military expenditure.
    I want to say two or three words in regard to other parts of the Report with which the right hon. Gentleman has dealt. I think, myself, and I speak after a good deal of administrative experience, that the proper way to deal with these subordinate Departments is to absorb them. I feel quite sure that if we took as our model the old Board of Trade, the old Home Office or the old Local Government Board, we might easily engraft, as sub-departments, some of these new forms
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    of activity which have been developed since the War. I am very much in favour of consolidation for two reasons. In the first place, I think it will be found to be economical in the long run; and, in the second place, it brings the various feeders of the Departmental organism into closer relation with one another, greater daily contact, and this makes the work of government much smoother and more efficient. In this direction the changes which the right hon. Gentleman has suggested, as far as they go, seem to me to be changes in the right direction. It will be a great thing if we can reduce our Supply services by £180,000,000. Just consider the position we are in to-day. £500,000,000 is required for Pensions, Debt, and other matters. The expenditure for the year will be £1,000,000,000. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman will be very fortunate if he brings it down to that. It is more than this country can bear. It means keeping up a state of taxation, both direct and indirect, at a figure which makes saving and accumulation practically impossible, and which will tend as time goes on to lower the standard of the comforts of life. There is no more vital consideration, not even the re-opening of international markets, urgent and important as that is, than the task of bringing down taxation to a point at which it will no longer check the springs of industry. That can only be done by a large additional reduction beyond anything now proposed. It ought to start at once—a large additional reduction of the non-productive causes of expenditure, which are a menace to civilisation.
    Mr. THOMAS: We have had this afternoon a remarkable illustration of the manner in which the present Government can adapt themselves to circumstances. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer opened his speech by saying that no one welcomed the Geddes Report more heartily than the Government did. Notwithstanding that fact, tremendous pressure had for weeks to be put on the Government to publish the Report. Curiously enough, they welcome the Report, notwithstanding the fact that it scraps nearly every proposal for which the Government themselves are responsible. I wonder what the Prime Minister will say to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer announcing

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    the willingness of the Government to sell the houses which have been built under their housing schemes. My right hon. Friend says, "We welcome the Geddes Report, which enables us to sell the houses that were made for heroes to live in. We welcome the opportunity of getting rid of those houses for heroes." I can hear the Prime Minister saying he is prepared to sell them to the heroes. But in this case the buyers will not be those who fought and who now are hungry, and unable to buy; you may rely upon it that the people who will get these houses are not the heroes my right hon. Friend was speaking of at the time he secured approval of this particular policy.
    Again, the Chancellor of the Exchequer adapts himself to circumstances by saying, "We welcome the Report and the opportunity of abolishing the Ministry of Transport which was the genius and creation of my right hon. Friend. We welcome the opportunity of scrapping all these things which secured us votes at the General Election." Another very curious thing is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he could not understand the opposition in this House and in the country condemning the Government for the creation of this particular Committee. I think I had better state again the objection raised from the Labour Benches at least to the creation of the Geddes Committee. That objection was not to the personnel of the Committee. It was not to any particular individual. We protested then as we protest now against the Committee doing work which ought to have been done by the Government themselves. If there is a justification for this Report; if the Government are justified this afternoon in coming forward and saying, "We welcome this Report and we welcome those responsible for it, and are prepared in the main to adopt their recommendations," then our answer is that a Government with an unprecedented majority, refused nothing by this House of Commons and having unlimited chances to do the business for which it was elected, ought to have done this work. We say our condemnation is not against the Geddes Committee or its Report, but rather against a Government such as I have described shelving its responsibilities
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    on to another body not representative of this House of Commons, and then coming along and blessing its Report.
    I want very briefly to clear up two misapprehensions which have arisen on this matter. In general statements in this House and outside it is assumed that we of the Labour party believe in Government control and the creation of Government Departments merely for the purpose of finding labour. The taunt we are compelled to meet from time to time is that it does not matter what the circumstances may be, if we can only give people jobs we are in favour of doing so. I want to say quite frankly and emphatically that that is foreign to our conception of Government responsibility. We recognise indeed that no one pays more heavily for waste than do the working classes, by increased taxation, direct and indirect. For waste in any Department, whether private or public, we know only too well that the working classes in the main have to pay a very heavy price. Where we join issue is in differentiating as to what is waste. We have no hesitation in saying that the most terrible of waste at this moment is to be found in the 2,000,000 people unemployed. There is no waste equal to that. As far as the Geddes Committee Report is concerned, we want to differentiate between economy in our so-called fighting forces and economy in the health and well-being of the people.
    I hope the Government will go beyond their present proposals with regard to education. We whole-heartedly support them in opposing any attempt to cut teachers' salaries, which we believe were all too low prior to the War, and are not too high to-day, and we also support them in the proposal not to drive on to the streets thousands of little children who, if they were not in school, and were not being cared for in their homes, would be mutilated in the streets. In the end we should have to pay more dearly in consequence of that change of policy. We support the Government in not attempting to save at the expense of these innocent children. We also beg of them to realise even on this question of larger classes that all experience is against larger classes. The best answer is that you do not get large classes in public schools. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Not being a public schoolboy, I am only giving utterance of opinion of those who

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    know better than I do, but I venture to suggest there is no analogy in the matter of the contemplated large classes in the elementary schools and the supervision of the teacher and direct contact between teacher and pupil between the elementary schools and the great public schools to-day. We believe that any attempt to further increase the size of the classes will be disastrous. In that connection I want again to remind the House and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this Report, which the Government welcomes, throws entirely overboard the policy adopted by the Minister of Education less than two years ago. Of course, that is only another illustration of the adaptability of the Government to circumstances.
    I hope my right hon. Friend will not proceed with the proposal to amalgamate health and unemployment insurance. If I were to join issue on any part of the Report it would be on this- point, for those who make that recommendation can know absolutely nothing about the administration of these services. There is not an approved society in the country, there is not a friendly, insurance, or trade union organisation that would not admit right away that any attempt to amalgamate health and unemployment insurance would be not only difficult to administer, but would prove far most costly than the present system. Anyone who knows anything about this subject will confirm what I am saying, and anyone who supports the proposal to amalgamate both services and run them under one head can know nothing about their administration. Such an amalgamation could not really be carried out, and in the end it would prove very costly indeed.
    The real point I want to make in connection with this Debate is this: We may talk about economy, we can talk of saving money, we can cut down here and there, but we cannot separate expenditure from policy. We may talk about the money that has been squandered in Iraq and other places, we may talk about the money we are saving to-day, but until we recognise that money has been wasted, and is still being wasted, in pursuit of a wrong policy, and until we reverse that policy, we shall never get effective economy in this country. It is for these reasons that I say, on behalf of the Labour party at least, that we shall jealously protect, and
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    fight against any attempt further to curtail, the educational facilities of the children of this country, or any attempt to interfere with the health of the men, women, and children of this country, upon which already not enough is spent; but equally we will support wholeheartedly any attempt to eliminate real waste, defining waste as that which does not contribute to the well-being of the community as a whole.
    Colonel MILDMAY: I should like, first of all, to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his admirably practical and lucid speech. There was no attempt to conceal anything. He gave the House all the information at his disposal, and I am sure that all will agree that his speech was most convincing. I have been reading lately the proceedings at various bye-elections, and I find it very difficult to have patience with the use which has been made of the Geddes Report by those who are obviously manœuvring for position in connection with a General Election. First they found fault with the fact that there was no immediate publication of the Report. That plea failed them, and afterwards they would have it that there was an intention to refuse certain reductions. I think that those gentlemen who have been so violent on the subject must feel very foolish now. Is there a man amongst those who have been so loudly screaming about a General Election, who does not know that these reductions cannot be effected by a stroke of the pen? There must be detailed consideration in connection with the adjustment of these reductions to policy.
    I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) that the question of reductions depends very largely upon policy. I am especially interested in the reductions on the Army Vote, as foreshadowed by the Secretary of State in his speech last year. I quite agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this is not the moment to discuss those reductions in detail, but it is the moment to ask ourselves whether they are going to be effected on the right principle. It seems to me that there is one great essential, and that is to keep the various cadres in being, and to preserve the possibility of expansion. We must not scrap that possibility in preference to dealing with what we believe to be the largely superfluous personnel of the War

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    Office and in commands throughout the country. We must not injure the great work which has been done by Lord Haldane in the past in connection with the Army. During the War, on the Western Front, I was thrown into contact with a good many Generals in high command—army commanders and others—and to a man they were agreed that the British Army was more indebted to Lord Haldane than to any politician for the last 50 years. I have always thought, as, indeed, they thought, that nothing was more disgraceful than the treatment which was ultimately meted out to him by the leaders of his own political party.
    I should like, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to ask the Secretary of State for War one question. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, speaking of the possibilities in connection with the Agriculture Vote, that he had turned down the suggestion that the small sums voted for the encouragement of horse breeding should be withdrawn. Have I rightly gathered that he is not going to withdraw the grants already made in connection with the King's premiums? I think that, if he has so decided, he has decided rightly, and that that will be agreed to by anyone who has been at the Horse Show to-day and has seen the magnificent array of stallions there. His Majesty himself was present, and presented the prizes in connection with his premiums. It seems to me, in connection with those premiums, that the great advantage is that there is no bureaucracy required to carry out the arrangements. No officials are concerned, and all the arrangements are made by people who work without remuneration. It is, however, perfectly certain that in the future those stallions will no longer be provided unless this grant is forthcoming. I fully agree that all these details will be discussed more appropriately under the various Votes when they come before the House. I see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now here, and perhaps he would be kind enough to answer the question I was putting. I understood him to say, in connection with agriculture, that he had turned down the suggestion that the small sums voted for the encouragement of horse breeding should be withdrawn, and I gathered that the King's premiums were not to be withdrawn.
    Sir R. HORNE: I have pleasure in stating that those will remain.
    Colonel MILDMAY: I am very glad indeed to hear that. I will not say more, in view of the fact that we shall discuss these details in connection with the various Estimates, but will conclude by again congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the admirable way in which he has completely countered all the misrepresentations connected with the Geddes Report which have been so effective in recent elections.
    Mr. AMMON: In rising to address the House for the first time, I feel sure that I shall have its sympathy and forbearance. I think it is, perhaps, well that someone fresh from the constituencies, where this question has played some part, should express some views, however imperfect, on the Report which is now before us. I should like first to say a word in praise of both the form and the manner in which the Report has been presented, making it easy to read and to get at the information which it is desired to bring before the public. That, at any rate, is something that one may be thankful for, and I suppose it accounts for this Blue Book being amongst the best sellers of the day. Moreover, if I may say so with respect, the manner of its presentation is equalled only by the lucidity with which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer put his case before the House. Having said that, I should like to put one or two points before the House. In the first place, I feel that I owe a debt of gratitude to the Chancellor of the Exchequer because he has already enabled me to redeem two of my election pledges. I ventured to promise the electorate of North Camberwell that, if I were returned at the head of the poll, I would, when the Geddes Report came under discussion, endeavour to get withdrawn any ban that might be placed on the lower age limit for children, or any proposal to reduce the teachers' salaries. Those two election pledges have soon been realised, and I may claim, for once, to have been among the prophets.
    I have looked through the Report with much interest, and it has revealed to me some things that I did not know before. I was always under the impression that the cost of education from public funds was concerned only with working people, but, on looking through this Report, I

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    find that the sons of the wealthy actually cost the public funds more than do those of the poorer classes. With regard to the cadets at Dartmouth in particular, I find that they cost £462 a year each, and that the average amount paid by the parents or guardians towards their education amounts to only £65 a year. That is a remarkable commentary, and it will, I know, be received with a good deal of interest by the masses of the people when they begin to appreciate all that this means. Even more remarkable, in view of the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman says he has accepted under the education recommendations, is the fact that for 445 cadets at Dartmouth, there is a total staff of 529, that is to say, there is more than one person on the staff to every student in this college for naval cadets. I should like respectfully to draw the remarkable contrast between that and what is going to happen in our elementary schools in London, where the average of 50 means that sometimes as many as 70 children of the working classes are crowded into one class. I was very much interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that they were not going to press forward the case for raising the lower age limit, but when one looks at that there is not quite so much in it as there may seem to be at first sight, because already the fiat has gone forth to stop the education authorities spending any money on buildings for the purpose of extending their work. I speak as a member of the Education Committee of the London County Council, and we have already issued instructions to restrict the flow of these little children into the schools, because there is not sufficient accommodation for them. I think that that to a very large extent discounts the concession which the right hon. Gentleman has made to us here.
    I was also interested to observe that no breach of faith with the teachers was desired. That is interesting in view of some of the things that I heard, before I became a Member of this House, with regard to the Sankey Report, the Agricultural Wages Board, and other matters, in regard to which the same course was not pursued. It is also remarkable that there has been a surrender to the Admiralty and the War Office, while a considerable attack is being made on the working people. In fact, as I view it in my inexperience, this Report, and the proposals accepted by the Government,
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    is, after all, in the main, an onslaught on the conditions and the life of the working people, and I venture to say that that cannot be gainsaid. Although it has been said that there has been no attack on pensions, I do want to point out, nevertheless, that that is already taking place, both in the new questions that are being asked, the further combing down, and the reduction of pensions on certain scales to those who have fought. That, however, is a digression. I want to come back to what it means to us here in London and the large urban districts with regard to the overcrowding of classes in schools. This is a very serious matter. It is no exaggeration to say that it is going to mean a great increase an sickness and ill health among the children in the poorer districts, and to prevent them from having any benefit whatever from education. Some of us who live in such localities know what the incidence of sickness, such as measles, hooping cough, scarlet fever, and so on, means. It is going to be increased tremendously by the proposals that are being made here. I note that the Chief Medical Officer of the Board of Education, in his report for the year 1914, said:
    "One thing is certain: we cannot afford to lose, by premature death, lives of children which can be saved, nor can we afford to neglect to remedy or to prevent, in those who survive, disabling effects or disease which can be removed."
    Very respectfully I venture to say that the proposal to accept the suggestion of larger classes is going to have the very effect of doing what the Chief Medical Officer deplores. It is bound to increase infantile mortality.
    7.0 P.M.
    There is yet another point upon which nothing was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, the reduction in the number of scholarships which go to the children of the working classes. The majority of working people are looking forward, and have been striving, to give their children a better start in life than they have been able to have themselves, and, in view of what has been already said as to the large expenditure out of public funds on the training of naval and military cadets, surely we have every right to claim that the children of the people should go out with the best possible equipment for waging their battle of life. I take the ordinary, conventional point of view that most of us take with regard to ourselves as Englishmen. I

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    believe that we are, and want to be, the best race possible, but this Report, and the acceptance of parts of it by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is doing the very thing which will lower us in the scale of nations. While other nations are spending more on their education at the present time, we are doing all that we can to handicap future generations and make things more difficult for them in the days to come. Teachers are to be congratulated, certainly, that they have done something to frighten the Government from the attack on their salaries, but even then it has to be remembered that pensions were also part of an agreement entered into, and it was proposed to put teachers on to precisely the same footing as civil servants. Therefore, to depart from this without in some way coming to an agreement with them is undoubtedly a breach of contract. It ought to be known that after all our education, so far as the masses of the people are concerned, is weighted with a good many other things that cannot strictly be called education, and which really belong to the Ministry of Health. I refer to such things as feeding, medical inspection, and so forth. It is absolutely unfair to weight our educational charges with these things as is done at the present time, and that should be taken into consideration.
    I want to turn to one other point that has not been touched upon. I prefer to talk on subjects about which I know something. I have dealt with education, and I want to turn now to the proposals affecting the Post Office, with which I have spent half my life, and am still connected. It is worth noting that after all the attacks, inspired and otherwise, which have been made on the Post Office, the Geddes Committee having exercised all their ingenuity can only suggest a saving of half-a-million, and that is all at the expense of the staff. That is to say, we are carrying into this Department of State exactly the same thing as is being waged in industry outside, namely, that instead of sitting down and devising ways and means whereby we should reorganise our commerce and industry, the attempt is to reduce the status of the workers and to bring them down to something like the wretched standard at present obtaining on the Continent. The proposed reductions are,
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    £150,000 on indoor staff, £200,000 on outdoor staff, £30,000 on telegraphs, £10,000 on telephones, and £80,000 on uniform. I venture to say there can hardly be a meaner suggestion than the last, in particular. On the uniforms already there has been a considerable saving of something like £90,000. That has been done by giving a less number of garments, by inferior quality material, and so forth. Everyone in this House is conversant with the postman, who is probably one of our most popular public servants. He has to be out in all weathers and in all conditions. Now it is proposed to reduce the standard of the uniform with which he is provided in order to guard him against the inclemency of the weather. That is not a real economy, because you are bound thereby to have increased sickness, inefficiency, and other things that will outweigh all these considerations.
    The Report suggests that there is too much staff for the work, and that economy could be effected by cutting down the staff. I might mention that as recently as the 8th June, 1921, the Postmaster-General told a deputation that the number of the employés for the whole country had decreased since 1913–14, while the volume of work done was infinitely greater than in pre-War days. He said the general result was that the cash transactions of the Post Office, which amounted to £500,000,000 in 1913–14, now stood at £1,500,000,000, although the increased work involved was carried out by a diminished staff. That ought to be borne in mind. This Committee seem to have seen in the more ordinary lines, such as postcards, that there has been a decline, but they have given no thought apparently to an increase in business on another side of the Post Office. I would like to point out that Health Insurance has risen from £16,000,000 in 1913–14 to £22,000,000 in 1921–22; unemployment has risen from £1,000,000 to £25,000,000 in the present year; and other new business has amounted to £176,000,000, all transacted through the Post Office and involving work that has been directly thrown on the staff. The proposal to cut down the staff simply means that we are going to speed up and place increasing burdens on those already there, with the result that when you have a revival of trade and commerce you will have inefficient service and will make it very

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    difficult to carry on. I wonder if that is why the Postmaster-General has again and again thrown obstacles in the way of an investigation into industrial fatigue in the Post Office. That has been done. He has also only agreed to a very limited inquiry with regard to telegraphists' cramp. These are bound to increase if these recommendations are carried out. Post Office workers have already suffered considerable reductions. The abolition of Sunday work saved £1,000,000. That is not to say that we are in favour of it, but it was part of our meagre emoluments, and it had an effect on our pension rates. These have been cut down very considerably quite recently. The average worker has been reduced from 30s. to 39s. in the last 12 months, and the President of the Board of Trade, in the House of Commons on the 18th December, 1920, said that the pre-War wages of postal workers were in a very large proportion of cases very low. At the present cost of living, many Post Office workers are getting less than in pre-War days. I do respectfully point out that if this had been approached, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in a real business manner, they could have devised ways and means by which increased revenue could have been discovered. I was able—and it had considerable effect on the constituents in the recent election—to point out to them large quantities of literature posted abroad by largo firms in this country in order to escape the increased postal charges. It shows a real lack of business acumen, for people, who are largely in the position of shopkeepers, to stand in their shop doors with a loaded revolver waiting to blow out the brains of their customers as they come to deal with them. Some firms can save as much as £2 a thousand circulars in this way, but we do the work because this material is simply transferred back in bulk and we deal with it. I apologise to the House for the time I have taken, and am very grateful to it for its patience.
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: Before I go further I hope the hon. Member for Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) will allow me to congratulate him on the fact that having come with some triumph from a well-fought battlefield, he has shown us that he can bring to the debates of this Assembly not only administrative experi-
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    ence, but powers of clear exposition, and fair, lucid, and well-argued statements.
    Since the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer we have had the benefit of listening to two Front Opposition Bench speakers. They gave us some very edifying copy-book maxims on economy, They pointed out particular personal arguments that might tell against the present Government. They reiterated the fact, which many of us have in a humble way stated, and which I think is echoed from every corner of the land, that there has been extravagance, and that that extravagance must stop. We are to-night considering this Geddes Report and the verdict of the Government upon it. That Geddes Report, it is perfectly clear, can come to nothing if we are all to do as the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) did, select a sort of eclectic choice as to which economies they will allow and set their faces steadily against the others. We must combine, if we are to accomplish anything, in making some common contribution, and whatever may be our peculiar interest and favour in economy, we must feel it is our duty to contribute to the whole and to give some satisfaction to what is the imperious need of the nation at this moment more than anything else, some reduction in taxation.
    Some hon. Members speak for the Army and the Navy. I speak as one who has been most of his life in educational work and who for some time held an administrative post. I know many mistakes were made and how difficult one found one's task. I did, however, find one thing, and that has been impressed upon me. However much it is the first moral and religious duty of the Government to give a good education, it is not easy to say what is a good education. The mere word "education" is sometimes used too easily and with too much readiness as a sort of sacred word that justifies any kind of extravagance. That is not really doing our work well. What education really means is the training of those who are to come after us in the best way we can to take our places, not only to do the menial work of the world, but to rise to high aims and high ideals and to make the most of their lives. I am not very sure that I like the constant references which I hear urging us to give education because it would be so commercially successful,

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    because commerce depends on it, and because if we do not train properly we cannot compete with foreign countries. We used to hear in the old narrow and selfish times the better classes say that we must not educate the lower classes because there would be no one left to do menial work. This idea that you should educate for commercial competition is exactly the same thing, and it is radically wrong. We should educate our children, not for gain, but that they may rise to higher things.
    I welcome the fact that we are not going to break contract with the teachers, because if your schools are to be properly conducted you must have men of high character. It is far more important than all your buildings and size of schools. Put a good man at the head of a school, and he will make that school a success. I myself was Chairman of the first Commission that sat upon the salaries of teachers in my own country in 1917. We made a unanimous Report; I got the joint consent of my colleagues to every point. Our main abject was to attract good men, and we tried to do this by offering some high prizes and raising the general scale. With reference to fixing a minimum, it was agreed that you should pay your teachers well, but you should not go and establish a sort of trade union scheme to be uniform all over the country, without regard to individual circumstances. That is an extravagant system, and it has resulted in many second and third rate teachers being paid too much. I can say quite confidently that it tends to lower the level and the spirit of a very great profession. I do not believe that the teaching profession will thank you for introducing this sort of trade union system of unified salaries all over the country, which sometimes means giving to a young girl in a small country school a salary of £350 or £400.
    Mr. MILLS: More like £200.
    Sir H. CRAIK: I am not speaking without knowledge. There is another thing which I would impress upon the Education Board. You are not going to get teachers of the best class in your schools solely through monetary considerations. What is driving some of the men away is the ever multiplying of your regulations, and your restrictions; you do not leave them a free hand. They
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    have not the old independent free hand. I say we never had a better teacher than the old parochial teacher of Scotland He was paid very little, but he had an independent position. He was master within the walls of his own school. He was the friend, the adviser, and the guide of his pupils, and he managed, poorly as he was paid, but independent as was his position, to make the youth of the country strong, and to lead Scotland to the position of the most virile nation in the world. That is due more to the old parochial teachers of Scotland than to anything else. It is not merely by money that you get these results. You may sometimes overpay your teachers. Give them freedom and individuality, and see that you do not go back to the old sordid payments which were considered good enough in the last generation.
    There is another way of saving. Do not have too many fads in education. Let your education be simple. Simplicity is the greatest ornament of all human things. Do not think that these rules about when a child should come to school will really touch the life of the school. The hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) spoke about the size of the classes. Sometimes a big class is very bad and very dangerous, but I know that a small class may be so too. Remember that there are circumstances to be considered. It is sometimes a very good thing to have a big class. It stimulates and arouses emulation and rivalry, and gives the variety that stimulates education. I remember 60 years ago, when I was at the University of Glasgow, at the age of 14 years, I was in a class of between 150 and 180, and it was the big class that made us. It stimulated ambition; we were always on the alert to try and distinguish ourselves. I always thought a good deal of the success of the old Scottish University was due to big classes. Now and then a small class will dwindle to only a few, and that is most dreary and plodding work, sometimes making the children actually hate the sight of themselves; they want a little more variety. Why is it considered, especially by hon. Members opposite, that it is a great injustice not to thrust a prolonged school education of a scholastic and scientific kind upon all children? Do they really think that all children should have their education prolonged?
    Mr. JAMES WILSON: It was good enough for you.
    Sir H. CRAIK: Perhaps I was not good enough for anything else. Would the whole world be better if all were trained to be classical scholars or skilled mathematicians? Are there not faculties in human nature just as good, just as useful, just as great as the faculties I have mentioned? I have myself spent days on the stormy seas on the West Coast of my country with a fisherman. I saw how that man's faculties were trained. I saw how he could tell his course by the stars, how he could by extraordinary perception foretell the weather, how he understood the ways of Nature and of the ocean. I saw the delicate poise by which he could, in a storm, discern the due balance between recklessness and undue caution; how by the turn of the sheet or of the rudder he could manipulate the craft, and I saw all that was given him by talking with Nature. He could give points to many men whom I have known as classical scholars. We spend a lot of money by giving this elaborate education, which my hon. Friend insists must be given, and is the only proper thing to be given to all. But wasting your money is not the worst thing; you are spending valuable years of their lives during which they might gain familiarity with Nature, gaining niceness of touch and dexterity, and a keenness which, if they had been detained in school, they would never have gained at all.
    I want the Minister of Education, and I advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to look to the costliness of administration. That is a matter which has hardly yet been fully understood. When I first entered the Education Department, now many years ago, the local management of schools was in the hands of voluntary managers, Nonconformists or Churchmen. The whole of the local management did not cost the nation a single penny, and I can say honestly that the correspondence showed intelligence, keenness and zeal in management. Now you have established huge county authorities, and an enormous staff beyond all justification. They have a host, an army, of what they call directors of education and assistant directors of education. I believe the director of education is a man who forms theories; he is above teaching;
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    he thinks of school management, not merely matters of education. He is big, with pedantic theories, and talks of matters concerning instruction, at a very high salary. In the old days the Education Department dealt with every separate school. It paid grants to every school. It sent down inspectors to every school, and it corresponded directly with an enormous number of school authorities. You have now huge county authorities, who pay large sums in administration, and the whole responsibility rests with them. They have very large expensive administrative bodies. Why is it that the central administrative costs have at the same time doubled and trebled? Why does the Department, when they have handed over the greater part of their work to these local authorities, continue to swell the number of secretaries and assistant secretaries and have a Vote on salaries twice as large as in 1913? I cannot understand it.
    Another thing I urge is this. Do not discourage voluntary effort. There has been far too much of that, Remember that by this non-contributory system of pensions you turned your teachers into civil servants. I protested against that at the time, but the House was occupied with the War and would not listen. It was a fatal system. Many voluntary schools are threatened with the necessity of closing their doors, and you would then have to supply their place. It would be a very serious thing if you killed out all the voluntary schools. At the present cost of education it is going very far towards doing that. Above all, do not trust too much to compulsion. We have had a little too much of compulsion. During my 50 years' experience of administration my faith in it grew weaker and weaker. I remember in my first experience of educational administration coming into contact with Mr. Forster when he was producing his 1870 Bill. I know then that the feeling amongst those who promoted compulsion was that it would kill itself and would render itself useless. That has not been the case. Instead of becoming useless it has killed the old enthusiasm and zeal which existed in my own country. There was very little compulsion necessary in the country districts of Scotland, but we Scotch are a stubborn race. When we are told to do things that we would very willingly do if we were not told we begin to

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    kick against them, and I think there is less enthusiasm for education in Scotland now than there was. We must carry out the supreme duty of checking these burdens on the country. Enthusiastic as I am for education, having spent the greater part of a long life mainly in that work, still I urge on the Chancellor of the Exchequer that even in that economy may be practised, not only without loss of efficiency, but, I believe, with a good deal of addition to efficiency. I advise those who are the true friends of education not to kick against some restriction in expenditure in this direction, but to join hands with those who, in regard to armaments and in regard to all other things, are ready to say, "We will take our share in adding to this work of clearing away the load of debt that is crushing the nation."
    Lieut.-General Sir AYLMER HUNTER-WESTON: It is a just criticism of Members of Parliament and of the country generally that everyone is keen on economy generally when practised by other people, but not at all keen for economy at the expense of himself or of anything in which he is particularly interested. Those Members belonging to and interested in the Army are sensible of the justice of this criticism, and the majority of them agree that in the critical state of our national finances it is necessary that some reduction in the cost of the Army should take place. It is a choice of risks. On the one hand, in view of our very greatly extended difficulties and dangers in the world generally, it is a great risk to reduce the Army. On the other hand, to continue expenditure at the present rate is an even greater risk. It is regrettable, but true, that to secure a great reduction in cost it is necessary to reduce strength. By proper co-ordination of our triplicate defence services, by administrative reforms, by cutting down offices and staffs, we can get considerable saving, but such savings can only be counted by thousands of pounds. In order to get savings which can be counted in millions of pounds it is unfortunately necessary to reduce strength. It is a grievous misfortune that the Members of the Committee on National Expenditure, in their rapid review of all the different Departments of State, have necessarily not had enough time to go thoroughly into every
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    subject, and so in many cases, their premises being inaccurate, some of their conclusions are unsound. This is especially the case with reference to the statement that is made with regard to a broken and exhausted Germany which appears at the beginning of the first Interim Report. Its implication is that our present Army and our pre-War regular Army existed to guard us against the German menace. This is entirely at variance with the facts, and that, I believe, lies at the foundation of some of the recommendations of the Committee and is the basis of many articles in the Press and of speeches both inside and outside this House. The Army that beat Germany in the past, the Army that would be required to safeguard us against a European menace in the future, was and would have to be a national Army. It is owing to Europe being broken and exhausted and there being at present no German menace that our national Army, the Army not of six but of 80 divisions, has been disbanded.
    Our pre-War Army and our present Army exist not as a national Army but as a police or gendarmerie Army to safeguard our far-flung frontiers in every quarter of the world and to maintain internal security. Its strength neither was nor is determined by our liability for service on the Continent of Europe. The strength of the Contemptible Little Army of six divisions that did such good service when it first went across the sea in 1914 was not determined by our Continental responsibilities. If it had been it would have been far larger. It was merely fortuitous that the home units, the feeding units, of our gendarmerie Army, when properly organised, amounted to six divisions. The units at home, which were largely composed of soldiers too young to go abroad, existed for two purposes only. First to train officers and men with which to feed the units across the seas, and secondly, when made up with reservists, to make a striking force to take action on any of our many frontiers where their presence might be required. That the strength of the old pre-War Army was not excessive in 1914 was proved by the fact that they had great difficulty in dealing with many of the larger of our "Small wars," so-called, in South Africa, in India and in Egypt. Are the dangers against which our regular Army has to guard us now less? Are the dangers less on our

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    frontiers, which are far longer, or is the internal condition of our dependencies all over the world, and especially in India, more tranquil? Omitting altogether for the present the grave potentialities in Ireland, we cannot but recognise that the internal condition at present, both in Egypt and in India, and indeed nearer home, is more dangerous than it was in 1914. What about the dangers externally on our many frontiers and at the many places where troops are now stationed? What about Constantinople? It is perhaps difficult to remove our small detachments there when the French and Italians have troops there, but the difficulties and dangers which might have to be faced in case certain eventualities occurred must be recognised. This is a post-War commitment.
    Then about Mesopotamia. Whether the British troops there belong to the Army or the Air Force, the vulnerability of small detachments spread over a huge country, with no communications to speak of, is just the same, and it can be mentioned in this connection, though it sounds paradoxical, that the Air Force is in some respects less mobile than infantry. For each serviceable aeroplane in France—and of course each serviceable aeroplane could only be up the air for a short time every day and not all the aeroplanes could be up at the same time—there were 40 Air Force men, there were two to three motor vehicles, and there were many tons of material. Therefore, instead, as in popular faney, of an aeroplane squadron being able to take wing and fly away, it is tied to the ground by a mass of material which has got to be moved in motor lorries—not a very easy thing to do in a country where there are no roads! In Mesopotamia you have frontiers, and you have to guard them against both Turks and against frontier tribesmen, and against the Arabs in the interior. Our commitments, therefore, in Mesopotamia are large, and they certainly are commitments which have come to us after the War. What about India? No one can be so blind as to see that certain grave happenings may at any moment necessitate the despatch of all our available forces to that country. The lives of our fellow-countrymen there, with their women and children, are directly dependent on the strength of the British Army and the knowledge of the Indian peoples that that Army is both strong and invincible. What of the north-west
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    frontier of India? The Afghans and the frontier tribesmen have in recent years become much more formidable. They have learned the value of discipline and they have been able to get large supplies of the latest modern quick-firing, accurate long-range guns. There the improvements in modern weapons have been to the advantage of our possible enemies because they have all the quick-firing, long-range weapons which can be used in their mountains, whereas our modern engines of war are ruled out because of the difficulties of transport. The physical difficulty and vulnerability of our lines of communication remain just the same as before, and thus it is that it is an accepted military fact that to operate at Cabul now would necessitate a force larger than was the case in Lord Roberts' time. And so with all our other commitments. There can be no doubt that the dangers for which our Regular Army is required are not diminished but are greatly increased since the War, and that being so, to reduce our pre-War Army is to run great risks.
    Certain risks in this matter must be taken, not only because of the state of our finances, but also because of the situation that obtains in regard to barrack accommodation, which introduces the necessity of the reduction of units. Before the War there was the greater part of two divisions quartered in comfortable barracks in Southern Ireland, in places where living was cheap. These units are now being removed, and to find permanent accommodation for them in the United Kingdom without prohibitive expenditure in building new barracks would be impossible. We, therefore, fully recognise that some limitation of military strength is imperatively necessary, but it is a corollary of that that if you make these reductions everything must be carefully thought out, in order that there shall be the possibility of rapid expansion at some future time if occasion demands it.
    Our civil administration and our historical traditions are all based on our counties and our municipalities, and our Regular Army and our Territorial Army are, therefore, rightly based on those ancient divisions of our land. It is the same with every other army in the world. We must, therefore, be very careful that in our reductions we do not destroy any of our county regiments, and we must be

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    careful not to destroy any territorial connection whatever or any historical tradition. Both bulk very largely in our power of expansion and in the efficiency of the units when in being. It would be fatal if any of our county regiments were to be wiped out, and I trust that this House and the country will make their opinion very strongly known that, whatever our present difficulties may be, they will not permit of our future being hypothecated and its security endangered by any such course. I know that the Government are alive to this danger, and that their proposals, as far as we know them, have kept this principle in view, but they are making huge cuts and proposing reductions that go very far.
    Let us in this House say to the Government: In the present grave financial situation it is, we are all agreed, necessary to take military risks, but those military risks must not endanger the security of our country, nor render in the not distant future expenditure both in men and in money which would be far and away out of proportion to our present gain. We must not scrap our historic cavalry and infantry regiments, with their glorious traditions, which mean so much and which have so real an effect on efficiency. We must not destroy our county regiments, on which we rely for our power of expansion. The county regiments, small though they are in peace, expanded in war to 15, 30 and even 40 battalions each. They were the mother-liquor into which the man-power of this country was poured, and this mother-liquor, this yeast, leavened the whole mass and made possible the brewing of that great, mighty, strong flood that, being transported in stout vessels of our fleets to the other side, overwhelmed with its power and spirit the forces that were intended for our destruction.
    The spirit and tradition of our historic associations, of our historic infantry and cavalry regiments and of our various corps cannot be improvised. Whatever you do, therefore, preserve that precious yeast. Those who have seen and studied the psychology of men in the mass know the wonderful power that the tradition of their unit, and the spirit of those who have gone before, have on men who, owing to physical and mental exhaustion, are dependent entirely on instinct which is derived from discipline and tradition,
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    the wonderful power which the tradition of their units and the spirit of those who have gone before have on the men in tight places. We must reduce our military strength, it is true, but while we reduce that strength, think what you will do with the officers and men who by these reductions are thrown out of employment and who will be apt to be in great misery. Think now what can be done to minimise that hardship. Reduce, with judgment and with reverent care, so that you lose not the perhaps incomprehensible but still very real power that lies in the historic association and spirit of our cavalry and of our historic territorial regiments.
    Commander BELLAIRS: The hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik), in a very interesting and instructive speech, gave very high praise to Scottish education, and it is a proof that the Chancellor of the Exchequer agrees with him as to the merits of Scottish education that he should have appointed a Geddes Committee consisting of four Scotsmen and one Englishman. I supported the appointment of that Committee, and I think the right hon. Gentleman has his reward in its merited success in focussing opinion throughout the country and throughout the Departments in favour of economy. Before that Committee was appointed we got no sort of success in the movement towards economy out of the Public Accounts Committee or out of the Estimates Committee, and new measures were required if we were to effect economies. The point of view from which to approach this question, both in regard to my own service and to the other services, is that we cannot economise on vital expenditure, but we must sacrifice everything else to the financial needs of the country.
    I regret that in regard to the particular item on which the hon. member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) congratulated himself, in that it enabled him to redeem one of his election pledges—namely, the raising of the school age from five to six, the Government have not seen their way to carry out the recommendation of the Geddes Committee. They say that they have not carried it out because of the health of the children and the beneficial effect of their going to school at the age of five. Schools were organised to give education, not health, and if you consult any dentist—after all dentistry means

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    more to health than anything else—he will tell you that the important age for looking after the children is before the age of five. Therefore, that argument, if carried to its logical conclusion would mean that you would have to send children to school at a very much earlier age than five years. I do not think that that argument can hold water for one moment. It is not vital to education in any sense of the word that children should go to school as early as five years of age.
    Mr. JAMES WILSON: According to your showing it is.
    Commander BELLAIRS: In such matters, at the present time, the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot afford to be generous. It was said of a former Prince of Wales, about 150 years ago, that he was very generous, but his generosity ruined a great many people, and it may be said of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he can be very generous but he can ruin the country if he is too generous. Seeing the cuts that are to be made in the other services, education ought to contribute its quota in any matter which is not vital. I agree that the promises which have been made to the teachers must be redeemed. I would never economise on teachers' salaries to the extent of making teachers in any way discontented with their position, because of the vast influence which they exercise on public opinion in this country and on the future generation.
    Now I come to those parts of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech where he dealt with the fighting services. After allowing £11,000,000 for the savings which can be effected as the result of the Washington Conference and of the use of oil in the Navy, the cuts and savings by the three fighting services are £5,500,000 less than the reductions specified by the Geddes Committee. If you add in the unspecified savings, the figure is £19,500,000 less than the reductions recommended by the Geddes Committee, or something like 35 per cent, less than the Geddes Committee expected. That is a point upon which we shall have to focus attention. To that you have to add the savings which will be effected in respect of Ireland—if and when we are able to get them, and certainly we are getting them, because we are evacuating our troops from Ireland—and also the savings which result from the cost of living having gone down. The Geddes Committee were
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    told to estimate on a standard of 100 per cent, over the cost of living in 1913, whereas the cost of living has gone down to over 88 per cent. That reduction in the cost of living ought to affect pay and the cost of materials. In the third volume of the Report of the Geddes Committee, on page 169, the Committee attach great importance to that reduction in the cost of living. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not deal with that reduction in the cost of living except in a rather evasive answer he gave to a question which I put to him. The Geddes Report, dealing with the question of the cost of living, says:
    "There is also one very important point in reserve. The Treasury in May last laid down that Departments should estimate upon a cost of living figure for the year 1922–23 of 100 per cent, above the pre-War level. As the cost of living has already fallen to 88 per cent, above the pre-War level, there appears to be more than a possibility that the Treasury forecast made in July last can be improved upon, and as the cost of materials was also taken at the same hypothetical level it will be seen that the Estimates as a whole have in all probability a margin of further saving in sight."
    The Geddes Committee met in an atmosphere of the Treasury. All their inquiries were conducted at the Treasury. Therefore, they advocated a very large strengthening of the Treasury checks. I think that is a wrong way to approach the problem. We live in cycles in these matters. In the days when Lord Salisbury was Prime Minister, he said that the influence of the Treasury in controlling other Departments was not in the interests of the public service. The Geddes Committee proposes a great strengthening of these Treasury checks. What has been the history of the last 50 years in regard to these checks? As they have been strengthened the different services have regarded economy as no part of their duty. That was my experience in the Navy.
    Had the Government gone to the public Departments and said to the First Lord of the Admiralty, to the Secretary of State for War, and to the Secretary for Air: "Get hold of your war staffs; get them to teach economy; get them to preach economy; tell them to preach that economy and efficiency go together," you would have had a very different spirit in the services. Whenever a war breaks out the Treasury checking system comes to nothing, and if you have not trained your

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    officers in the promotion of economy they will have no interest in getting economy. It is no good anyone saying to me that that is a counsel of perfection that is impossible. There are competitions in the American navy and in our own Navy in regard to the expenditure of coal, with a view to cutting down the expenditure, to the lowest possible amount. That is the sort of thing that ought to be done all along the line. It was done in Nelson's time. He urged all the captains of his fleet to exercise the most rigid economy, and they prided themselves on economy of spars and sails and not having to go into the dockyard's hands. I think that spirit should be carried out all along the line.
    8.0 P.M.
    The next point is this: The Government control policy and the Admiralty carry out the policy. I am inclined to criticise the Admiralty a good deal, but on one point I am entirely on their side, and that is in regard to the political pressure that is exercised upon them. I believe the Admiralty would like to economise on the dockyards, but what is the whole effect of political pressure in this House? I acknowledge that the dockyard constituencies are very safe Coalition seats, and the pressure on the Coalition in consequence is to please the dockyards. I think that is wrong, I think it is wicked. The Admiralty would, no doubt, like to economise on the training system at Dartmouth College. Again, political pressure lays it down that the Dartmouth College must continue. We get as good officers from the public schools, who are entered after three months' training, and it was the experience of the Grand Fleet that they show more initiative than boys trained under the naval system. Then the Admiralty, probably would like to economise on the coastguards. Again, pressure comes from outside to maintain the coastguards, and the Admiralty have not been heard in the matter. The most important point of all is in regard to the policy which dictates the armaments of this country. There is a paragraph in the Admiralty Memorandum, in reference to the Geddes Report—and I think they had a perfect right to issue this Memorandum, though I do not like its tone and temper—in which they say
    "they are responsible for seeing that effect is given to the Naval policy of the Govern-
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    ment announced and accepted by Parliament while the Committee remain free from any such responsibility."
    What is the policy laid down by the Government? It is given on page 10 of the First Report:
    "The one-Power standard upon which the Admiralty are working involves 'that the Navy should be maintained in sufficient strength to ensure the safety of the British Empire and its sea communications as against any one other naval Power.'"
    It is not obscurely indicated on pages 35 and 36 of the First Report that the one other Power is the United States of America. On page 166 of Volume 3 all the comparisons are with the United States of America. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself made comparisons with the United States. He gave the personnel of the American Navy as 129,000 and the personnel to which the Admiralty are going to work as 98,000. I submitted on the Estimates of the year 1920 that this is a profound mistake. I believe that I took a stronger line, in the Parliaments from 1906 onwards, than any other Member on the subject of naval armaments in regard to Germany. I always mentioned Germany as the country with which we should make comparisons, and I was always urging the increase of armaments, but I cannot accept this policy in any shape or form in regard to the United States. I said on the 1920 Estimate that it was unthinkable that this country would ever be at war with the United States of America, unthinkable even that the Navy would obey orders if any Minister were so mad as to involve this country, as George III did, in war with America. The whole thing is unthinkable, and we ought to rule out of consideration altogether the American Navy except as allies. If you did that, you could afford to economise on naval armaments very considerably. When the Lord President of the Council went to America he did not take behind him any army or navy, but he was able to return to this country practically with Cæsar's maxim emblazoned on his record, "I came, I saw, I conquered." He accepted the American proposals at once. His method was, "I came, I saw, I concurred," and it was completely successful. If you rule out these comparisons with America, and realise that you cannot think of America as an enemy, you will do more to achieve the alliance

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    of the English-speaking peoples than by any other method. The Government ought to relieve the Admiralty of the responsibility of preparing against an American navy, and say that they should rule out America altogether in these questions. In that way we shall get very substantial naval economies beyond those which are at present promised, or even what the Geddes Committee hoped for.
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: Our first duty in this Debate is to try to place the total recommendations of the Geddes Committee in their proper proportions. The three Reports recommended an aggregate saving of some £87,000,000. Let us relate that as closely as we can to what we believe will be the Budget of the coming financial year. The last Budget passed through this House provided for £1,216,000,000 in all, and making all allowance for the economies already introduced, but keeping also in mind a probable serious falling off in revenue, it seems to me incredible that, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer presents his statement in a few weeks, he can budget for very much less than £900,000,000 or £1,000,000,000 in all. That is necessarily a rough-and-ready guess, because we have not, at the moment, the means of ascertaining what is likely to happen or what will happen in the last quarter of the financial year, but take the figure at £1,000,000,000 and put alongside it the aggregate recommendations of the Geddes Committee of £87,000,000. Under the modifications which have already been announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it is clear that at this stage we cannot hope for reductions of more than £55,000,000, and on that point we must keep in mind that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has included certain savings flowing from the Washington Conference which were excluded when this matter was last discussed.
    However that may be, I think it a fair argument to say that we cannot expect a saving of more than £50,000,000 or £55,000,000, or about one-twentieth of the tremendous sum that this country would be called upon to find, with its industry largely paralysed, in the coming financial year. So there must be among people who are earnest in the reduction of expenditure a feeling of disappointment, and our duty is plain to-night to ask whether there are not more drastic re-
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    ductions that can be effected in certain spheres, and whether there is anything which should be safeguarded in any other spheres which we believe to be essential to the economic recovery of our country. On the other side of the House it is very often argued that we concentrate apparently on the mere reduction of armaments, and that we forget the unsettled state of the world at the present day and the provision which in those unsettled conditions this country must make. But let our critics remember the actual facts. Last year we set aside £207,000,000 for Naval, Military and Air Force purposes, more than the whole of the pre-War revenue of this country, and the Provisional Estimates, which were included in the Geddes Report, provided for a sum of £175,000,000 in the coming financial year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day has made what appeared to one side of the House to be only niggardly concessions in Naval, Military and Air Force Estimates, but what are in our judgment excessive concessions, because we are bound to keep in mind that, having regard to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done, we may spend in round figures £150,000,000 on these Departments in the coming year. It is plain that that is one of the great elements in public expenditure which must be drastically reduced as a foundation of the economy which we hope to achieve.
    I recognise in common with hon. Members in other parts of the House that this expenditure is very largely regulated by policy. Much depends on our international or foreign policy. Much depends, following from that policy, on the position of military and other problems, but it is not unfair to suggest that we should be much more determined and vigorous than we are under at least two heads, and if, under those two heads, we had more vigorous action we could probably look for greater reductions on armaments than we are likely to achieve in the near future. In the first place, we in Great Britain must do more than we have already done to support the success of the League of Nations, and in the second place, we must be much more vigorous and enthusiastic about the extension of self-government, and, above all, about the establishment of local responsibility for defence than we are perhaps at the present day. The Geddes Report has made plain that we are

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    responsible in different parts of the world for a great deal of enterprise for the preservation of security which should really, if it be necessary at all, be undertaken by others, so that the taxpayers of this country to that extent should be relieved. These are two elements of change which it is our duty to press. There are many other changes which are urgently required, because if one thing is clearer than another, it is that this country, faced with all the calamities and all the depression of the past 18 months, and with the great burden of taxation at six times our pre-war budget and from six to seven times our former taxation per head of the population, cannot afford to expend £150,000,000 on armaments in these conditions, and until that expenditure is drastically reduced there is very little hope for the remission of taxation and the definite encouragement of economic recovery which that would bring.
    There is one important controversy which arises in this Debate. The Third Report of the Geddes Committee and other Reports refer to the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Mines and the Ministry of Labour. The broad purpose of these recommendations is to abolish these Departments at the present time, and to transfer their activity to other Departments under what we could rightly call a scheme of Departmental concentration. Take such Departments very briefly one by one and try to show the effect of this change as it is proposed on industrial and commercial problems to-day. It is no part of my business in this Debate to defend the Ministry of Labour as such. It is the opinion of many of my colleagues, and it is certainly mine, that in industrial matters within recent times this Ministry has pursued a very weak and often evasive policy. It has not achieved that industrial regulation which was a large part of its purpose when it was established. We have no interest in defending the thousands of people who are employed in it. It is no concern of ours to maintain it as an expensive Department of State, but when we have made all these concessions, we are still compelled to ask whether, in view of the industrial policy of this country within recent years, some Department of the kind is not required, and whether some form of industrial
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    regulation is not necessary? A great deal of attention has rightly been devoted to the question of industrial peace. The Ministry of Labour is closely concerned with the Works Committees, with the Trades Boards, with the Joint Industrial Councils, and with a great many of the other regulating bodies of the present time, and it is necessary that there should be some Department representing the community as a whole, which will do its best to hold the balance evenly between capital and labour as long as the existing industrial system lasts. Many people argue that this should be left to other machinery and the Ministry of Labour abolished. I want to plead for the importance of some form of intervention in the public interest. It is the duty of the Government, if it comes ultimately to make this proposal, to show that in this particular sphere the public interest will be safeguarded and maintained.
    In the second place, take the Mines Department. Probably it will be quite easy to put that under some other Department of the State, but I am not sure that is going to achieve any economy, and I have no hesitation in pressing this consideration—that as the mines of this country are a great national asset, and as we have been reminded of the dangers of a stoppage or dislocation, you have here precisely that sphere, in which it is all-important that there should be a liberal interpretation and administration of Acts of Parliament. It is, above all, the sphere in which the community should be given the benefit of that publicity in mining matters to which it is undoubtedly entitled for its protection. Thirdly, there is the Ministry of Transport, which has been exposed to a great deal of hostile criticism in recent months, just as it was during the discussions last year on the Railways Act. It was then urged that in the interpretation of the Railway Agreements, and innumerable other matters, the Ministry of Transport had hardly justified its existence, and that is the belief of many of us, but that is no reply to the problem we are now discussing.
    In considering these suggested economies, we are bound to keep in mind the great change which has taken place in our industrial structure, and more particularly in the railways of Great Britain. The Railways Act of last year swept away—or in 1923 it will sweep away—a very large number of separate railway

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    concerns. These will be replaced by four great amalgamations on a geographical basis, which it is not unjust to call powerful trusts. It is perfectly plain that if, Clause by Clause, the Railways Act, 1921, is to be interpreted in the public interest—and after all that is what is at stake—there must be some Department responsible for the task. I should be the very last to suggest that we should retain the Ministry of Transport, if it can be proved that we can do this satisfactorily under the Board of Trade or other Department, but I am bound to say our pre-War experience of the railways department of the Board of Trade was not encouraging. It can be argued that this country was let in for an expenditure of many millions due to the weakness of that Department, when the initial agreements were negotiated between the railway companies and the Government in the early days of the War. These things we cannot afford to forget or neglect, and my argument is that in their consideration of a scheme of departmental concentration, which must come, the Government should keep clearly in view that change in the railways, in the industrial structure and in general industrial regulation, which has taken place within recent years. Subject to this consideration, there is a great deal in the Geddes Report that we can confidently and sincerely support.
    In the Third Report, there is another department of expenditure to which, necessarily, for reasons of time, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not refer to-day. I invite hon. Members who are interested in economy to look at those portions of the Report referring to the large sums which we have sunk in protectorates and in different districts and areas up and down the world. There are references to Nyasaland, to Rhodesia, to Uganda and other territories, and one must be impressed by the very shadowy character of many of the securities for large sums which this country has either voted in the past or is voting at present, in these different territories. Broadly speaking, the recommendations of the Committee suggest that we should, as soon as possible, try to put these territories, in so far as we have any connection with them at all, on a self-supporting basis, that their budgets should balance, that they should pay appropriate interest on the amounts which we have advanced, and that, as soon as possible, we should, in the aggregate, get rid of the large
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    commitments to which we are bound at the present time. On that point, however, is it wrong to make this suggestion? The Geddes Report itself indicates that there is more than a possibility that the very large sums which British taxpayers are being called upon to find for investment and for development and general enterprise in those areas is really enuring to the advantage of large business interests which are carrying on operations in one territory or another, and I am by no means satisfied that we are getting from those business interests anything like commensurate return for the sacrifices which the taxpayers of Great Britain are in reality at the moment making on their behalf.
    In conclusion, I hope that when the House comes to the closer study of the innumerable proposals and difficulties raised by this Report, not only shall we have far fuller information regarding these outlays than we now possess, but that we shall have a much stronger policy in those protected and other States in reducing what is on the whole a considerable proportion of the annual expenditure of this country year by year, and which, on a paralysed industry, and above all on a recovering industry, as we hope it shall soon be, we really cannot afford to bear.
    Major GRAY: The task which the Chancellor of the Exchequer undertook this afternoon was one of much more than usual difficulty, and I hope that he will not consider me presumptuous if I, as a very old Member of this House, express my appreciation of the wonderful skill and patience with which he discharged that duty. If, therefore, I ask him for some further explanations of the figures which he used with regard to one of these public services, I trust he will recognise that it is entirely due to my failure to grasp his statement, and not to any want of lucidity on his part; but before I put that question to him I do want, as a back bencher, to enter my protest most emphatically against the comments made by the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) in regard to the statement of this afternoon and its bearing on the question of national expenditure. He stated that the extent of the economies exhibited the measure of previous waste and extravagance—not perhaps in words so terse, but he declared that it furnished overwhelming evidence of past waste and of a lack of economy on the part of the Government. That is the

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    kind of comment which will readily catch the thoughtless throughout the country, but I do not think it will appeal to anyone who reviews honestly and without prejudice the current of affairs during the last five years.
    It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman never did learn the lessons of the War, and he has never learned what has been the position of England since the War. In 1918 the whole nation was straining every nerve and every muscle to achieve victory on the battlefield; the whole of our national energies were directed towards that aim, and everything else had to go, and then suddenly came the change. The whole current of national life had to be changed. From seeking victory on the battlefield, we had to strive for victory in the field of peace, and the whole of our national life underwent, almost at a day's notice, a great change. Was it possible for the huge expenditure which we had necessarily built up during the closing year of the War to be suddenly brought to a complete standstill and the nation placed on a peace footing in the course of a year or two? Like an ordinary business house which changes its attitude, it has taken time to reduce our heavy expenditure, and gradually approach normality, and I noticed with great interest the figures which were given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the steady decrease in expenditure during these intervening years. As far as my humble judgment goes, I think the Government may be well congratulated on the policy which they have adopted during the last four years in gradually reducing national expenditure without endangering national efficiency, and I note, in the decisions they have taken upon the Geddes Report to-day, they are, so far as I can judge, carrying out the policy which was expressed in the Speech from the Throne at the opening of this Session. They are effecting economies as far as they are consonant with the preservation of the efficiency of national services, and no Government is entitled to go further than that. Whatever may be the demand for economy—and we know it is greats—they have no right to destroy the efficiency of any one of the national services, nor have they the right to inflict an injury now which can never be made good in future years.
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    My interest, as is generally known in the House, is mainly in connection with popular education, and I do not want to comment upon the decisions of the Government with regard to the Army or the Navy or other branches of national service, but I do want to offer one or two comments upon the decisions of the Government in regard to national education. I am afraid the lot of the Government is not going to be a happy one with regard to this Geddes Report. I suppose they fully recognise that, for the Report encouraged hopes in many quarters which are doomed to be disappointed, and the Government will have full credit for that, and it aroused fears in other quarters which it will take some time to allay, and the Government will get full credit for that also. There are always interested persons who are prepared to put the blame for either hopes deferred or fears aroused upon the shoulders of the Government.
    I listened with great patience to the speeches made from the Front Opposition Bench, and there is one phenomenon in this House which always interests and puzzles me, and that is the policy of the Labour party as preached in the House and as practised outside. That is a thing I never have been able to understand. I noticed that the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) joined in the general chorus this evening in favour of economy, and that the Labour party, in common with other parties, was anxious to have economy in the public services, but I hardly ever hear a proposal brought before this House but that the Labour party declares that the State is spending insufficient money upon it, that it is not that the public services are being overpaid but that they are being underpaid, that it is not to restrict expenditure, but to incur more. There is, however, some semblance of a reasonable policy in the House, but when I contrast the policy expressed here and the policy professed and practised outside, then I really cannot understand what is the policy of the Labour party, whether it is the economies preached to-day in the House or the extravagances practised in Poplar and elsewhere. Nay, more, is it the policy of economy as enunciated by the right hon. Member for Derby this evening, or the policy which is being advocated from one end of London to the other at the present moment, whereby the State shall take

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    over the municipalisation of nearly every trade at the expense of the taxpayer and the ratepayer? There is no reconciliation of those two practices and principles—none whatever—and I can only believe that the one is preached here before an audience which will understand, and the other is preached and practised outside before audiences which are not so well-informed. Perhaps some of my hon. Friends opposite, the so-called leaders of the Labour party, will some day undertake the solution of what has always been to me an extraordinary puzzle, and that is the relationship of the policy here to that expressed outside.
    Therefore, I have very little regard for the protestations of economy of the right hon. Member for Derby, nor do I attach any importance to the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Paisley to the effect that the extent of our saving represents the extent of our waste. I have heard with much relief this evening the decision of the Government with regard to some proposals in the Geddes Report regarding education, and let me say that one which struck me as most important and of far-reaching effect was the decision of the Government to reject the recommendation with regard to children under the age of six. I wish these Benches were as full now as when that statement was made, because I would have a word to say to some of my hon. Friends who usually sit here. I noticed, when the Government announced that decision through the mouth of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there were general cheers on the other side, and practically dead silence on this side—a silence which did not bespeak consent, but, I thought, rather represented disappointment.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Hear, hear!
    Major GRAY: I hope my hon. Friend is an exception, but I never know how to take him, because his views are so erratic I can never forecast what he is going to do. I put him on one side. He has a pawky Scotch humour which enables him to disagree with everybody. But I noticed the silence, which seemed to bespeak disappointment here. May I just tell some of my Conservative friends that they would change their attitude on that if they would face the electorate for a while. [An HON. MEMBER: "Have an election!"] I am going through it at this moment, and I have had to face large audiences practically every night for the
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    last week or ten days, and I do know that, whatever their politics, Liberal, Tory, or Labour, they realise that this admission of young children to the schools is not merely an educational question, but a great social question, and they are firmly determined that they shall not be excluded. The Government have acted wisely and discreetly. It is a pity they did not say so a little bit earlier, and allay some of the anxiety that has been aroused, as they have admirable, excellent and unanswerable reasons for rejecting the Geddes Committee's Report on this question. It is not merely that the life of the home in tens of thousands of cases is such that the young mother can-hot give proper attention to the child, but it is a fact that the education in our schools has taken on a new form in recent years. The child of five is medically examined, and many physical defects are removed under our present practice during that year from five to six, and, if not removed then, become the more deeply seated in the child's constitution, and the more difficult to remove in the years that follow. It is an utter fallacy to suggest that these children should now be excluded from school, when the public at once realise the great advantage that has accrued, not merely to the child, but to the future citizen of the country, through having physical as well as mental training devoted to it in the earliest years of life. I wonder the Geddes Committee ever recommended it. I can only imagine that it was a collection of business men with no knowledge of the-internal economy of the school, and, for some reason or other, neither the educationists nor the medical men were able to put the full picture before the members of that Committee, or it would have been about the last recommendation they would have made.
    I will not say more than a word or two with regard to the suggestion that there might have been a reduction in the salaries of teachers, but I think that the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, in one or two respects, defective. It is perfectly true that, before the War, and during a great part of the War, the salaries paid to teachers were miserably small, altogether inadequate to sustain them in the difficult duties they were discharging, and so inadequate that recruits for the profession were not forthcoming. You had, there-

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    fore, to increase salaries, and improve the superannuation scheme, or you would have had no teachers whatever for your schools—certainly no men, and I am one of those who believe very strongly that this country should never drift into the American system, and have almost entirely a staff of women for the teaching of big boys. I think we must keep within our boys' school a fair proportion of men for their training. I know what the women can do, perhaps as well as the women, themselves, and I have the greatest admiration for their work, but they will be the first to admit that the finest portion of the teaching service at the present time in all our boys' schools consists of the men who came back from the War, who are now being looked upon by the youngsters as young heroes—as they were—and their influence on the training of these children is perfectly wonderful. We must not at any time, in the desire to effect economy, take such action as will prevent the profession being recruited from the- best of the young lads from our schools. The salaries of the teachers were altogether inadequate either for their sustenance or for recruitment.
    There was something more. We in this House for many years past have declared that salaries and wages should be the result of bargaining between employer and employed. This is what has taken place since the War. Under the chairmanship of Lord Burnham a Committee has been sitting, consisting of representatives of employers, the local education authorities, and teachers, and they have between them agreed upon certain scales of salaries. To tell the local authorities that they must break them would be to issue an order which the local authorities, in many cases, would not obey; therefore, you could not get the economy, and it would destroy confidence in the Government. There is something more which the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not say, and that is that the Board of Education, representing, the Government, have been a consenting party to these agreements. They have recognised them, adopted the schedule which was issued, and agreed to make a contribution to the local authorities who adopted the scales which were elaborated by the Committee of employed and employers. Therefore, it would have been a very distinct breach
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    of agreement on the part of the Government, and I am very glad to see they have brushed that on one side. I will not say anything with regard to the proposal to place the superannuation scheme upon a contributory footing, because that must be the subject of legislation, and full opportunity, no doubt, will then be given to discuss the matter. I merely remark that the first speech I made from this seat some 27 years ago was in favour of the superannuation of teachers, when they had not a single penny of State funds or of local rates coming to them in the way of superannuation, and when the man and the woman who left the service left without any refuge than the workhouse after, it might be, 45 years' laborious service. I am glad to find that that position has been entirely changed during the intervening quarter of a century. I believe the action which this House took in 1918 was thoroughly justified when the teachers were placed for superannuation purposes on the same footing as civil servants. I, for one, shall not willingly consent to any alteration of that plan.
    It might, then, be imagined that I am opposed to all economies in education. That is not so. I hope I am not quite so unreasonable. But before I refer to some economies that might be made may I just add this, that I hope the Government have not yet finally made up their minds in regard to the size of classes in the schools. I cannot make out how the Geddes Committee got at these figures, unless they took all the teachers in the country and all the children in the elementary schools and divided the one by the other. If they did that it was a very foolish proceeding. I am not very greatly alarmed, and I do not mind stating it to the Government, at the proposal to do this, because I know that they cannot do it—at least, not much! For example, under pressure from the Government we in London—I speak as a member of the London Education Committee—have remodelled nearly all our schools, or a very large number of them, under arrangement with the Government. We have built schools with class-rooms in them to accommodate 40 scholars—48 in the infant departments. You cannot cram another 10 into those rooms. They are fixed for 40 for all time. I do not think it would be considered an economical plan to send round the archi-

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    tect and the builder to pull down the walls which have just been put up at great expense. You cannot enlarge those classes, practically. Then I have in mind, too, the village schools of the country. I know a very great many English and Welsh schools where the total number of children present does not exceed the size of the ordinary class. What are you going to do there? Go to any Welsh village, say one in the county of Carmarthen, many miles from a railway station, where you will find 27 children in a school with one teacher. The Geddes Committee says: "Oh, but that is a dreadfully small number for a teacher to teach." Nobody in this House could do it! There are scores and scores of these little village schools in the country where the number of children per teacher is small, but where, I can assure the House, it is a far more difficult task to teach than it is to take a class of a 100.
    A charming little essay was given to us by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik). It was delightfully expressed, and appeared to me as though the speaker were an artist who had come out of one of the bye-gone centuries and was painting a canvas after the style of one of the old masters. He appears to be totally unacquainted with the changes which have taken place in modern education. When he was telling us that these things should be done I could have imagined thousands of teachers and local authorities crowding around him and saying: "That is what we are trying to do." We have no longer made our background nothing but gold. We have tried to put into it a little natural scenery, and so forth. If you enlarge your classes dangerously—it is impossible in some cases—the inevitable result is waste of money and waste of labour. The ordinary teacher in all his class work is always teaching an imaginary child. There are two extremes in a class. The teacher knows that his best teaching, which will suit the brightest, will leave the dullest hopelessly behind, while if he goes for the dullest, the bright ones will be marking time. For the most part then he plays up to the average child. He works at that average child with such attention as he can give from time to time to individuals, but the wider apart are the extremes to which I have referred, the greater
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    is the waste at both ends. Everybody who knows school work at all knows that. Let me, too, say this. I know no reason whatever why the child in the secondary school should have one teacher for every twenty, when, according to the Geddes Committee, the ordinary elementary school class should have one teacher for every fifty. It is not fair treatment of the child who works under the most disadvantageous conditions, and without much parental assistance.
    There are some directions in which economies can be effected. I believe there is an immense amount of overlapping. The work in the offices of the local authorities might be substantially simplified and much money saved. The Board of Education, too, maintain a great staff of inspectors. The local authorities are not satisfied unless they, too, have a staff, and they are always getting in each other's way. It is perfectly impossible in ordinary school life to serve two masters. You cannot do it any better now than you could in Biblical days. You offend one or the other. Generally, the teacher succeeds in offending both. You could well do with one only. The teachers' lives are often made miserable by the multitude of forms that have to be filled up. I should like to know the amount of printing and stationery bills for the Education Board and the local authorities. I am perfectly certain that in the work of administration a considerable amount of economy could be effected. I am not merely saying this in the abstract. We have in London recently cut down our estimates for the next year by £800,000, equivalent to a 2d. rate, and a demand for £400,000 less upon the National Exchequer. This has been done without inflicting any serious damage upon the main structure of education. The axe was not the proper weapon to apply to education. The surgeon's knife may be—the pruning knife, possibly—but the axe is altogether far too clumsy a weapon with which to attack a delicate organisation like the education of the children of this country.
    I have been postponing my question because I thought the President of the Board of Education might come in, but I will put my question and trust it will be conveyed to him. I do not quite see how the Government have reached the amount of £6,500,000 which they are to save. I

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    think the Geddes Report recommended £18,000,000, and of that something like £3,500,000 was associated with the admission of children between five and six. Strangely enough, there was a sum of about £6,000,000 due to the enlargement of classes. If the Government have dropped the proposal to enlarge classes, and I take the £6,000,000 and the £3,000,000 and, deduct them from the Geddes recommendation of £18,000,000, then I do get near the figure which the Government say they are prepared to adopt. Otherwise I do not see how they have reached that saving of £6,500,000, and I do not see why it is not more unless they have also rejected some other recommendation. Perhaps at some later stage of the Debate this point may be made clear.
    I for one am intensely glad that the great anxiety which has been felt, not merely in educational circles, but, I believe, amongst the great majority of the parents of this country, is to be removed by to-night's Debate and the announcement to which we have listened. There were many who felt that the adoption of the Geddes Report would inflict, not merely a serious injury upon the progress of education, but would intensify adverse conditions in many a poor home. I believe that many a mother will be glad to-morrow morning to know that her child next year and this year may go for warmth, training, safety, and medical treatment into the school where she has been in the habit of sending that child, instead of being a burden on her slender resources and her time. That anxiety is practically removed, and I trust we shall never more hear any suggestion of inflicting stringent economy upon the educational services of the country, for I am certain that no axe ought ever to be laid on the root of the fairest tree that blossoms on British soil.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: I wish to refer to another matter which forms one of the subjects dealt with in the Geddies Report—I mean the continued existence of a separate Air Service. If the Under-Secretary of State for War is able to say in reply to my question that it is the Government's intention to maintain the integrity and independence of the Air Service, I shall not trouble the House with any further remarks.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders): That is so.
    Captain BENN: If that is the case, then I have nothing further to say.
    Sir R. SANDERS: I do not want to give a definite assurance of that kind in answer to a question without careful consideration, but I understand it is so, and that the Air Service will continue as an independent service.
    Captain BENN: If that be so, I should not dream of troubling the House with any further remarks. That is an extremely satisfactory statement in view of the doubts that have been thrown upon the future existence of the Air Service. If the hon. Gentleman states that there is no intention of interfering in the matter, that assurance is extremely satisfactory.
    Sir R. SANDERS: That is my belief at the present moment.
    9.0 P.M.
    Mr. G. BARNES: I suppose that there are few Members of the House who have read and thoroughly digested the Geddes Report. I have read all three Reports, and while I do not claim to have thoroughly absorbed them I think the House will agree that those Reports are very important and reflect great credit upon those who drew them up. I thoroughly endorse the sentiment expressed in appreciation of the work of the Committee and also in what I hope will be its effect upon the mentality of the nation in bringing the people to a realisation of the parlous position in which we stand. Both here and elsewhere in the last few months I have commented upon the lamentable fact that three years after the greatest war in history we seem to have forgotten, if we ever learned, the lesson of that War. The only real remedy to save us from a repetition of that horror and its expense is an effective League of Nations. I should be out of order in proceeding to comment further upon that matter. Suffice it for me to say that so impressed am I with the parlous condition of the country in regard to finance and with the burdens that the country is carrying and the effect upon industry and upon employment that for my part, although I regret the Report of the Committee recommends the abolition of certain things to which I attach importance and proposes to curtail cer-

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    tain things to which I also attach importance, still, if I had the opportunity of voting only for or against the recommendations as a whole, I should be inclined to vote for the adoption of the whole lot. We are not called upon to do that.
    Perhaps I may say a word or two upon one or two other recommendations. First of all in regard to education. I cannot speak on this subject with the intimate knowledge of the last speaker. Although I sympathise with many of his views. In my opinion 50 years of elementary and compulsory education has not been altogther a success. I do not know what is the matter. I am not an inside member of any local authority dealing with education, but as an outsider I judge by results. Unfortunately, I was born a little bit too early to get the benefits of the Free Education Act, and I never went to any school under a public authority. When I was a youngster and an apprentice engineer I remember many interesting conversations and debates which we used to have round the "devil," which consists of a bucket with holes in it and a coke fire. We used to have interesting discussions on national and other topics, but we do not get anything of that kind now.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: You get it in the discussions in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. BARNES: I try to keep in touch with my fellow workmen, and I think I can speak with as much knowledge of the psychology of my fellow workmen as hon. Members opposite. I think that to-day we have a far larger proportion than ever in the workshop who are more concerned about tips on horseracing, reading "Tit Bits," and those other attractions presented by the newspapers in order to get their pennies, and there is far more of that kind of thing than there used to be. I think with my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) that the results are not altogether so satisfactory as they might have been. I agree with him that in many circumstances and places the children would be far better outside than in school, and that more importance perhaps is attached to book-learning than ought to be. I agree with him that children would be far better in contact with nature and that they would get more learning by observation than they get in school. But I am afraid that my right
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    hon. Friend lives too much in the memories of his native glens. He forgets that many children attending elementary schools never saw those glens or any other glens, and therefore what we have in our mind is the provision not only for the child who has the good fortune to live in a Scottish glen, but also for the child who lives in a Glasgow slum. Those children, I am glad to think, will still have the fostering care of the educationalist. I want to maintain the ladder of learning right from the bottom to the top. I want to maintain it for those who want to mount it. There ought to be a little more elasticity in these matters, and if it were given I believe better results would be obtained than we now have.
    I want to say a word or two in regard to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon). I would congratulate him, if I may, on the splendid speech he made earlier this afternoon. He complained that there was a great deal of money spent on the education of the poor and on the education of rich people's children, and, as I gather, he objected to the latter. He gave as an illustration the cost of education at Dartmouth in connection with the training scheme for officers for the Navy. He said that there were 567 teachers for 460 pupils. [An HON. MEMBER: "'Staff.' not 'teachers'!"] He complained that there was a great deal of money spent by the Government from the taxpayer's pocket on this education at Dartmouth. No doubt there is a great deal of waste. It is the tendency of all Government Departments to blow themselves up into balloons and to sub-divide themselves into more balloons with more secretaries and more staff. It is more than likely that at Dartmouth there is a great deal of waste which ought to be cut down. But there is another principle involved besides economy in training for the Navy and Army. I have repeatedly said in this House that, for my part, I would throw more of the cost of training officers for the Navy and Army on the public Exchequer rather than less, because at present, by reason of the prohibitive fees paid for the education of these boys, you have to confine yourself for selections for all the positions of responsibility and power in the Army and Navy to the very small number of people who can afford to pay the fees. I believe the fee at present

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    at Dartmouth is £66. It used to be a good deal more, but, as a result of agitation in this House and elsewhere, it has been reduced. £66, however, does not cover the total cost to the parents of a boy at Dartmouth. There are other expenses connected with his maintenance, and, I dare say, £100 or more has now to be paid by the parents.
    Mr. LAMBERT: More—much more.
    Mr. BARNES: How many parents in this country can afford to pay £100 a year? I suppose for each who can do it you have two or three hundred who cannot, and this means that as a result of the fees which are required to be paid at Dartmouth and other places—I believe that at Sandhurst they are even higher—all the positions of power and responsibility in the Navy and the Army are filled by those who can afford to pay the heavy amount, and who constitute probably not more than from 2 per cent, to 3 per cent, of the whole community. I want, therefore, the burden to be not less on the public Exchequer, but more, so that we can avail ourselves of the best brains there are in the community. The best brains do not necessarily come from the top of the community. I think it was the Tichborne claimant who claimed that the community was divided in two classes—those with money and no brains, and those with brains and no money. I am not subscribing to that doctrine. I believe the best brains are equally divided between the upper and the lower classes of the community, and, therefore, the wider your field of selection the more chance you have of getting the best men for the Army and Navy. As this item is only a small one, I for my part should not grumble if the Government agreed to pay more rather than less.
    Then there is another matter to which the hon. Gentleman referred in his interesting and eloquent speech, namely, pensions. He complained that the teachers were going to be called upon to contribute towards their pensions. I marvel at some of my hon. Friends being so tender about teachers and people generally who are in public employ. After all, where do pensions come from? There is only one source for them, and that is industry. If everyone were getting pensions, I would not mind voting for the pensions being given, but I can-
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    not get out of my mind that workmen in this country go through life with all the vicissitudes of industry—spells of unemployment, and so on—and some, at all events, have lived on very low wages; but no one ever thinks of pensioning them off. They may go on, some of them, for 30, 40 or 50 years, and for them there is nothing at the end except the 5s. or 10s. pension at the age of 70. When I hear this tender solicitude for civil servants—who at all events, if they do not get work, get pay all their lives—I cannot help thinking of the others who supply the pensions. Therefore I am not at all sorry that the teachers, who are now fairly well paid—I am not saying that they are too well paid—are going to be called upon to pay just a little towards their pensions.
    There are one or two recommendations that I hope will not be adopted. One of them relates to afforestation. We neglected afforestation in this country in times gone by to such an extent that we had to pay through the nose during the War for timber imported into this country. I remember seeing a Departmental report during the War—a long time before the War was finished—and it showed that the cost of wood had, even then, exceeded by £37,000,000 what would have been a fair price for it before the War. That was because of the condition of the market which enabled people who sold wood to charge exorbitant prices. We do not want to be left in that hole again. Moreover, afforestation is a sort of counter industry to those of the towns. I believe that people are being heaped up into the towns far too much, and I want to encourage anything that will take them out of the towns into more healthy surroundings, and enable them to contribute to the country's welfare as well as their own. Therefore, I think we ought to attach a good deal more importance to this small Afforestation Department. I think it only involves a sum of something like £10,000,000 spread over a number of years, and I hope the Government will not adopt that particular recommendation.
    With regard to housing, I admit the evils connected with the system which we adopted some years ago. I heard a good deal of the Debate the other day on the Ministry of Health Vote. I heard the denunciation of profiteers, and I quite sympathise with it. I think it was a

    505
    scandalous thing that those who sold piping, or lead, or wood, or bricks, or any material for the production of houses, should have taken advantage of the nation's need to feather their own nests. That lesson, however, ought to be learned all round, and, if we are going to have anything like a successful application of the collective principle, we must have imbued in the people—not only the sellers of wood and iron and bricks, but of labour as well—a larger degree of social consciousness, and until we get that I do not look for any great success from nationalisation or any application of it. Before leaving that, I would suggest that, if these houses are to be sold, they should at all events not be sold to some capitalist combination who will make profit out of them. It is suggested that they should be sold at half the price at which they stand on the books now, and it seems to me that someone may—I do not say they will—reap a large profit out of it. I would suggest that, if the houses are to be sold, their sale should not be made a further source of profit to people who have made lots of profit already. If they are to be sold, let them be sold to the tenants who are now in them, and who might, by some application of the principle of credit, be enabled to acquire possession of the houses in which they live.
    Having said what I have said with regard to the application of the collective principle, let me say that I am extremely sorry to find the reference which is made in the Geddes Report to the cost of making, things in the deckyards as compared with making them elsewhere. I want to eliminate the element of private profit altogether in the manufacture of guns, and ships, and all the devilry of warfare, because I believe that in times gone by we slipped into war very largely as the result of the weight of metal that had been forced upon us by armament rings. I am sorry to say that, but one never gains any thing by refusing to face facts, and those who have taken an interest in public affairs for the last few years know that certain things came out a few years ago in connection with armament-building that did not look at all healthy, to say the least of it. I believe there were some people in the armament-building industry who were not above taking advantage of their country's need and fomenting international trouble to bring profit to themselves. I want to avoid
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    that. My wish is that as soon as possible all these things shall be manufactured in national workshops, but I cannot disguise from myself the fact that it costs £3 in a national workshop to use up £1 worth of material, instead of the £1 10s. that it costs elsewhere, and that does not tend towards moving things in the direction of national workshops. Therefore, I say that people ought to have regard to that aspect of the matter, arid ought to work at least as well for a public authority, when they have the chance, as they do for a private employer.
    I should like to say one word about the Labour Department. I was not here when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was dealing with that, if he did deal with it, but I have read the Report. A great deal of comment has been made, in the Report and elsewhere, about the Labour Department, some even going, as I believe the Committee do, so far as to suggest its abolition.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Hear, hear!
    Mr. BARNES: I am sorry to hear my right hon. Friend endorsing that revolutionary sentiment, because I do not believe for a moment that you can abolish that Department. It was my good fortune to be the Chairman of a Commission which was set up to examine, not the abolition of the Labour Department, but the abolition, as we thought proper, of the Exchanges. We cannot abolish the Employment Exchanges under present conditions. The Employment Exchanges may be good or they may be bad, but while you have an insurance system, and many thousands of men out of work, it is begging the question to talk about the abolition of the Labour Department. You must have some authority to deal with them. I believe there is a good deal that might be abolished in the Labour Department as there is in other Departments. I am one of those who believe that so far as the mass of employers and workmen are concerned they ought to be left to adjust their own differences. They know more about them than anybody else, and there is a danger that if we do too much or hold out the hope to either side of doing too much in regard to industrial disputes we may tend to foment them rather than adjust them. If you have a number of men fussing around looking for trouble they are sure to get it. The industrial world is such, with the workmen and em-

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    ployers always more or less looking about to find how to get the best of one another and in a position of sensitiveness, that if a man goes around saying, "If there is trouble I am ready to adjust it," it is just possible trouble will be made for him. Man is a difficult sort of being. If a man cannot get trouble he will look for it, and if he cannot find it he will make it. I am not suggesting that these gentlemen are making it, but I am suggesting that some of these officials, at all events, might be eliminated and set to earn their living in a more useful capacity. I do not want it lo be thought that I am suggesting for a moment that employers and workmen should be left to adjust their disputes apart from the interests of the community. The community is a partner, and I believe that inasmuch as the community is ever getting more sensitive, and organisations of employers and workmen are always getting larger, the community will have to protect itself ultimately against the results of large stoppages of work. I know the argument is that it is necessary to look round to see how things are going on in order to prevent disputes. My point is that in looking round for disputes, disputes are made. It would therefore be better to dispense with many of these people who are doing no good to themselves nor anybody else.
    As to the Navy and Army, I am glad we are going to have at least a very considerable reduction. I believe that reduction is overdue, and that now we are going to have £181,000,000, I think it is, within the period up to the 1st April next year. I am glad to hear that, and also that there is to be a reduction in the Army.
    Reference is made in the Report to the policing of Palestine, Iraq, and places in the Near East, and a good many millions are saved, I believe, by taking these police away. There is, however, one area from which you cannot take them away while it is so disturbed as it is to-day. That area is Palestine. I am sorry that the Balfour Declaration of 1917, as it is called, has cost this country already a good deal of money, and is likely to cost them a good deal more. That was never contemplated, and I am afraid it has come about through a wrong interpretation of the Declaration. The Declaration
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    simply was that the Jews should go back to Palestine and might regard Palestine as their national home, but that in going back nothing should be done to prejudice the interests or affect the rights and privileges of the existing population. Those may not be the exact words, but it was something in that sense. Now I am afraid a great deal is being done to affect the rights and privileges of the existing population, and I fear that is due very largely to the ill-considered zeal of Zionists throughout the world. It so happens that a few years ago I was in Palestine when speeches were made by Dr. Wise of New York, a prominent member of the Zionist organisation, and whether he meant it or not, the speeches at all events led to the conclusion out there that Jews were not only to be allowed to go to Palestine, but that they were to be encouraged to do so. The Zionist organisation then, and I suppose now, in Jerusalem has been in touch with Jewish organisations all over the world and is picking up Jews from America and elsewhere, some of them not altogether desirable people, with the result that we have fomented trouble in Palestine as the result of the interpretation of the Balfour Declaration. It is not a right interpretation, and if I could say anything to advise Jews, and especially those belonging to the Zionist organisation, I should advise them to "ca' canny," and not to force Jews into Palestine against the will of the people and against the interest of Jews who are already in Palestine. It is said that they have a sentimental attachment to Palestine. That applies to the people already there, and I should say, therefore, that although I agreed with that declaration in 1917 when it was issued, it has been wrongly interpreted, and has landed us in a great deal of expenditure which I hope will be lessened in the near future. In order to lessen it I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should get the Jews, so far as he comes in contact with them, to give a more liberal—and by "more liberal" I mean the phrase in the sense of being more fair to the present population of Palestine—interpretation to the declaration than has been given. I am glad to have had an opportunity to say a few words about this Report, which I think, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer does, is one of the most important documents that has been issued for a long

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    time. I hope the Government will adopt as many as possible of the proposals, because I believe that the way back to prosperity and fuller employment is to case the burdens now falling on the shoulders of industry.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. WARREN: I propose to take a very few moments of the time of the House, because, generally speaking, I am in perfect agreement with the Reports which have been issued, and I would like respectfully to congratulate the "men of goodwill," who have given so much time and attention to the compilation of the Reports before us. They have entered into every Department, every commitment, and practically every responsibility of the Government, and we have their findings before us in the three Reports. The remarks I have to make are not in any sense intended to criticise or belittle their labours, or to suggest to the Government that they should in any drastic way depart from the recommendations that have been made. I rise to call attention—and I am bound to do so in the interests of the persons I am presumed to represent—to matters which will bear very heavily upon a very large number of the working population of this country. In their examination of the expenditure of the Government the Committee have of necessity come to the Ministry of Health, and in surveying that Ministry they were bound to have regard to that which in recent days has been transferred to the Ministry, namely, the administration of National Health Insurance. Members of this House have some lively knowledge of National Health Insurance after what happened in the year 1911 and what has happened since in the various amending Acts and the different responsibilities that have been assumed by the Exchequer in relation to additional grants to assist that particular fund.
    They have called attention quite rightly to certain important and vital matters, but with a view to assisting the Government they have made a recommendation, based upon the report of the Government Actuary, that there should be a small increase in the contribution to meet the additional cost of medical and other benefits. Speaking on behalf of the many approved societies who are administering this Act for the insured person, I must say that the contemplation of any additional contribution is regarded with the
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    very highest disfavour, and the proposal that the contribution should be increased from 9s. 6d. to 12s. per member is one that will be resented very keenly and very acutely. I do not know whether I am rightly informed—I have had no authority for the statement, and I am one of those old men who pay little attention to what appears in the Press—but I believe there has been some suggestion in the Press that this proposed recommendation will be departed from; in other words, that the suggested increase of contribution of employer and insured person by the amount of 1d. per week will not be persisted in. I hope that is so, but in the absence of any direct authority I call the attention of the House, and of the Government, to the matter, in the sincere hope that whatever steps are taken they will not be in the direction of imposing a further contribution, because although national insurance has come, and has come to stay, I want the House to appreciate that there is a considerable feeling still existing in the country in relation to it, and any addition in the matter of contribution will be regarded with very great disfavour indeed.
    The Committee, in their incursions into the work of the Ministry of Health, make recommendations as to the setting up of an inter-Departmental Committee, with a view to amalgamating Unemployment Insurance with National Health Insurance I want to utter a word of caution. I hope that whatever happens in that direction the greatest possible care will be taken. I want the House to appreciate the fact that approved societies of the country have, generally speaking, made a very great success of their administration of National Health Insurance. They have done it in the face of very great, almost insurmountable difficulties, and to throw their administrative work in respect of cards and stamps into the melting pot, and bring it into association with insurance, which is of entirely a different nature, will probably cause a very great deal of conflict and confusion in the work of the approved societies Therefore I hope great care and attention will be given to this subject.
    There is one other matter. I am glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in his place, because I want to draw attention to a recommendation that is made in relation to a Department which I believe

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    particularly comes under the purview of the Treasury. The Committee in making their investigations have left in my judgment nothing undone in so far that they have inquired into the most minute and almost insignificant Departments in the public service, and in that respect they have come up against the Friendly Societies' Registry. For many years, the friendly societies of this country were without any Act governing, or regulating, or protecting them. For a long period in their history they had to fight their own battles and do the best they could to protect themselves, but ultimately the Friendly Societies Act was passed. In recent years the Department has grown from a moderately small size into a very large and very ambitious Department, and it is imposing a good deal of restriction—and we sometimes think a great many unnecessary requirements—upon the old benefit friendly societies.
    The Geddes Committee in dealing with this Department give it their general approval. They say:
    "The only suggestion we have to make is that where appropriations in aid were estimated at £4,500 for the years 1922–23 should be increased."
    There is no reduction proposed in the Department, but a recommendation is made in respect of that which is imposed by the Department upon the friendly societies throughout the country. They call attention in their second Report, upon page 101, to the fact that there are approximately 40,000 returns which have to be made to the Registrar of Friendly Societies in respect of annual returns, tri-annual returns, and quinquennial returns, all of which are required by legislation, and are imposed upon the friendly societies. There is a total of 40,000, and they recommend, to help the Department, that there shall be imposed upon friendly societies a fee of 10s. in respect of any one of those returns. In other words, they compel them to make a return, and then they suggest that they should have the privilege of paying for making it.
    Like some other matters, the Geddes Committee could not have looked very carefully into this question, because there are societies and societies, and those hon. Members who are acquainted with the work of friendly societies will remember that there are centralised societies and
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    de-centralised societies. A huge centralised society is cast in the sum of 10s. per annum for its returns, whilst a society like the one I have in mind, with approximately 4,000 branches, but no larger Ti umber of members, is cast in a sum of £2,000 for making similar returns. In five years the one society would pay to the friendly society's registrar £3, whilst in the case of the de-centralised society, no less a sum of £12,000 would be imposed. That is not fair treatment to a body of men who have done very excellent service in the thrift movement, which has been so belittled, so whittled away in these recent years, of which you hear so little to-day, though there are still an ardent body of men desirous of promulgating and furthering its doctrines. I therefore hope that in going carefully into the question the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have regard to this, and see that, at any rate, if the suggested registration fee is not removed, it is based upon some process of equity where no one society, because of its particular form of organisation, is mulct in a larger sum than a corresponding society of even the same number of members, and I appeal to him on behalf of that body of men that some consideration shall be given in that direction.
    Mr. G. LAMBERT: We have had a very excellent exhibition of how popular economy is in the abstract and how distinctly unpopular it is in detail. Nearly every hon. Member has said, "Save money on the other fellow's fad, but please spare mine." If we are to have economy there must be economy all round. Everyone has got to make a sacrifice. I know the Chancellor and the Committee have worked hard, but the right hon. Gentleman's speech will be intensely disappointing to the country at large. In the first place, the cuts recommended by the Geddes Committee were assumed to be the minimum. The right hon. Gentleman has whittled them away from £86,000,000 to £53,000,000. Secondly, I did not gather anything in his speech which would lay the foundations of future economy, for it is idle to imagine that we can go on spending money at the rate even suggested by the right hon. Gentleman for next year. He said he hoped to bring the Supply services to £484,000,000. I have been to the Library and taken out the figures for 1913–14 introduced by the present Prime

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    Minister as Chancellor of the Exchequer. They were £150,000,000. And we are going to spend three times more money next year, after the Geddes cuts, on the Supply services than we did before the War. I say we cannot afford it. Let me take the right hon, Gentleman's figures. What is he going to put his debt redemption at? My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) suggested £500,000,000. If that be so, you get a total of £984,000,000 of expenditure next year. The country cannot carry that. Let us take the estimated revenue this year. Again, I have examined the speech of the Leader of the House, who introduced the Budget in the right hon. Gentleman's absence. He estimated a revenue of £1,058,000,000. But you are not going to get it. He anticipated £120,000,000 from Excess Profits Duty, but you are only going to get about £30,000,000. That is £90,000,000 off, and that is one item alone. That brings your revenue to something like £968,000,000, and you are budgeting apparently for £984,000,000. The country wants a reduction of taxation. Are they going to get it with these figures? Does anyone believe your Income Tax can maintain the figure you have estimated for the present year? In 1913–14 Income Tax and Super-tax came to £47,000,000. This year you have estimated for £410,000,000. Customs and Excise, beer, wine, and the rest of it, £75,000,000 in 1913–14; this year £323,000,000. Corporation Tax you estimated at £30,000,000 this year. Already, according to the revenue returns just issued, you have only got £15,000,000. I say definitely that the taxable capacity of this country has been strained unduly, and we cannot tolerate this amount of taxation.
    Let me give you an illustration. I asked the right hon. Gentleman about Excess Profits Duty. He said that instead of getting £120,000,000 he had only got £29,000,000. Answering another question about the Corporation Tax, the Financial Secretary said:
    "The Corporation Profit Tax assessed for the year 1921–22 approximates closely to £30,000,000, which is the Budget Estimate. Owing to the exceptional industrial and financial conditions now prevailing, it is probable that the receipts during the year will fall very substantially short of the assessment."
    Therefore I say we have reached the limit of our taxable capacity. Next year
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    do you expect anything like the revenue you have this year? Are you going to get it from the Income Tax? The right hon. Gentleman said no other country had done as much. But no other country has such a debt as ours. The Treasury issued these figures of our taxes per head of the population. The taxes of this country are £20 8s. 10d. per head of the population. The taxes for France, taking the franc at 50, would be £5 15s., and for America, taking the dollar at five to the £, £6 10s. last year and £5 10s. this year. We have £20 8s. 10d., and the country cannot stand that amount of taxation.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: The Chancellor of the Exchequer says the same thing.
    Mr. LAMBERT: But he is not reducing it, I take Germany. I do not quite know how to work the German taxation out. According to this it is 1,610 marks per head. Of course, if you reckon 1,000 to the £ that is about £l 12s. 0d. With this enormous amount of taxation our manufacturers cannot compete in the markets of the world. We are not richer than we were before the War, but poorer, and we have three times the amount of taxation or more. This is a workman's question more than any other. There is a poisonous doctrine that the more public money you spend the more the workman is benefited. It is absolutely the reverse. The taxes to-day are creating unemployment. There is no doubt whatever that taxation is absorbing that reserve of profit which ought to be put back into industry, and which would go to pay wages and produce some useful article, because if some useful article is not produced by private enterprise the producer will go into the bankruptcy court. The prospects of trade revival must be crushed by this enormous taxation. I do not say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can reduce it all at once, but we have to make up our minds that we must vote for an all-round reduction of public expenditure. Without that reduction of public expenditure we cannot get that reduction of taxation which is so absolutely essential for our industries. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will insist more strongly upon Treasury control over expenditure. The Treasury to-day have lost control. We want to get the Treasury back into the old system that existed under Mr Gladstone. Sir Michael Hicks-Beach and

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    Sir William Harcourt. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) brought up the case of civil servants who had been given permanent pensions based upon the ephemeral cost of living, it was amazing that the Treasury should have passed such a thing. We have always looked upon the Treasury as being the one Department we could trust, and I hope we shall be able to look upon it in future as the watchdog of the taxpayer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the Departments had given us £75,000,000 reduction of expenditure. The Geddes Committee say:
    "The reductions proposed by the Departments are automatic"—
    Sir R. HORNE: Not all of them.
    Mr. LAMBERT: In many cases.
    Sir R. HORNE: Head on.
    Mr. LAMBERT: The Report says:
    "The reductions proposed by the Departments are automatic, due to the fall of wages and prices, or to windfalls, or to the cessation of special expenditure on services arising out of the War. The reductions in Estimates shown in response to your circular "—
    that is the Treasury Circular of May last year, in which they asked for these reductions—
    "are, therefore, by no means fully the result of curtailments of activity or of economical administration, and this point cannot be too clearly brought out."
    That proves my point.
    Sir R. HORNE: It is obviously stated there that there has been considerable reduction due to the cessation of what they regard as the activities of War Departments. That is one of the things that I thought the House had from time to time clamoured for.
    Mr. LAMBERT: My point is that I want to get the Treasury control over Departments more strict, and I want to show my right hon. Friend that the Committee reported that the reduction of £75,000,000, with which my right hon. Friend made a good deal of play this afternoon, is by no means the result of curtailment of activities or of economical administration. I want to curtail Government activities all round. There are about 891,000 State-paid servants to-day.
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    The country cannot afford that. When we have this enormous expenditure, unless the country insists that Members of the House of Commons shall drop their individual fads and their individual prejudices and really work so as to bring down public expenditure, we shall have unemployment aggravated, scarcity perpetuated, and unemployment and scarcity are the very worst things for the working classes.
    10.0 P.M.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I agree with a great deal of what has been said by my right hon. Friend who has just spoken. There can be no doubt that the taxation of this country, which is a very vital matter, is far higher than the taxation of any other country, and it is absolutely necessary if we are to maintain our financial prestige and if we are to create and develop industries and employment that we should reduce taxation. I agree with my right hon. Friend that, so far as we can tell as to what the actual receipts from taxation in this year will be, that on the present reduction of expenditure there probably can be no reduction of taxation. In 1913–14 the expenditure on the Supply services was £160,000,000; in 1905–6 it was £150,000,000. In 1913–14 the expenditure on education was £17,200,000 out of Imperial taxation. In 1921–22 it was £60,500,000. Therefore, from 1913–14 to 1921–22 the expenditure from Imperial taxation on education has increased from £17,000,000 to £60,000,000. Are we much better off in regard to education than we were in 1913–14? I very much doubt it. I agree with the right hon. Member for the Gorbals Division of Glasgow (Mr. G. Barnes), and I do not think we are any better, and I am not at all sure that we are not much worse. What reduction does the Government propose in this enormous increase of £43,000,000 on education expenditure? Only £6,500,000.
    Sir R. HORNE: The Estimate next year for education will be £44,000,000, according to my recollection.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I understood my hon. Friend to say that, so far as the recommendations of the Geddes Committee were concerned with regard to education, it was only proposed to effect a reduction of £6,500,000.
    Sir R. HORNE: That is a reduction from the Provisional Estimate, which was

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    much less than the present year's. The Provisional Estimate was £50,000,000, and it is to be reduced by £6,500,000, leaving, roughly, £44,000,000.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I am glad of that; it is better than I thought. As I understand the position now, the total expenditure on education in the coming year will be £44,000,000, as against £17,000,000 in 1913–14. There is plenty of room for further reduction. Why should it not go back to the £17,000,000?
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: Why have any education at all?
    Sir F. BANBURY: My right hon. Friend says that there is a contract with the teachers which expires in 1923.
    Sir R. HORNE: 1923 in London and 1925 in the country.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Having entered into a contract, we have got to keep it. That is the attitude which I have always taken up, but is there not a contract also about superannuation?
    Sir R. HORNE: No.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I always understood that the teacher pays nothing to superannuation, and now he is going to be asked to pay. That seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. Then what about new entrants? Is it necessary to give new teachers coming in, who have not got a contract, the same salaries as those who have? My hon. Friend talks of starvation wages. I do not know what the exact wages of the teachers are, or how they managed to live before the War. There is an increase in the cost of living, but a number of us have to meet that out of our own resources. If we have not got the money, what are we to do? We have not got the money to go on doing all these sort of things. Health in 1913–14 cost £5,000,000. In 1921–22 it cost £29,000,000. Labour in 1913–14 cost £900,000; in 1921–22 it cost £21,000,000. What on earth are we getting for that £21,000,000? [HON. MEMBERS: "Nothing!"] I am not sure that we are not getting less than nothing; we are getting our fellow subjects into the habit of looking to the State for assistance for which they ought to be looking to themselves. Those seem to be items from which very large reductions might be made.
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    For the last five years I have been trying in my humble way to impress upon the Government the necessity of restraining their expenditure. It was not a question of whether the expenditure was good or bad. We had not the money, and therefore we could not afford to go in for all these new schemes, whether they were good or bad. I incurred a great deal of unpopularity, and if derision was not expressed openly at my remarks, it was implied by the votes in the Division Lobby, but every word which I said has come true, and if hon. Members had followed my advice four or five years ago, especially during the last three years, we should not be in the position in which we are to-day. The Chancellor of the Exchequer plumed himself on making these reductions, but he ought never to have made the expenditure. If he had not made the expenditure it would not be necessary to make the reductions.
    Having said that, may I add that I have heard of the reductions on the Army and Navy with horror and amazement? I consider those reductions to be the greatest possible form of extravagance. Suppose there is a professional man with a large family who has nothing but his earnings. He insures his life to provide for the family. He is of a rather extravagant nature, goes abroad, has a motor car, goes to the theatre and enjoys himself, with the result that his expenditure exceeds his income. What is he to do? Ought he give up his motor car, his trips abroad, and his visits to the theatre, or his contribution of premiums on his life insurance for his children? Surely he ought to cut down his enjoyments and continue paying the premiums on his insurance for his children. That is just what the Government has not done. The Army and Navy are our premium for insurance against invasion and for the maintenance of this great Empire. And this moment, when the positions in Egypt, India and Ireland are, to say the least of it, dangerous, is the time which the Government take to reduce the expenditure on the Army and Navy.
    In August, 1914, we were able to send out four divisions to France, and later two other divisions which did not go until the end of August or the beginning of September. There has been discussion in various places as to who won the War. I say that those six divisions won the War. If it had not been for those six

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    divisions the Germans would have been in Paris, and there would have been no opportunity for anybody afterwards, either rightly or wrongly, to conduct military operations. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer tell us, with all the troubles which we have at home, that if there should by any accident be any foreign complications we cannot send six divisions, and that we can send only two, and I am informed by military authorities that we can only send one division of 20,000 men. That is playing with the future of this country, and it is extravagant for this reason, that it is sure to encourage our enemies to take advantage of our difficulties. I was told this evening that we could create an Army. We did so in 1914, but at what expense, and if we had not had those six divisions to arrest the march of the Germans we should not have had time to create that Army. We cannot be certain in the future that we shall not have another war in conditions in which we may not have the time to create an Army as we did in 1914. I hope the House will carefully consider this position, because, to my mind, it is one of the most dangerous positions we have been in during the last five or six years. I do not think it will be denied that if we had been able, instead of sending six divisions in 1914, to send 15, which, after all, would not have cost a great deal more, the War would have been over certainly within a year, if not sooner, and we should have saved many thousands of millions. Are we justified in running this risk again?
    Commander BELLAIRS: What is the German strength?
    Sir F. BANBURY: According to the papers to-day it is 1,500,000 men. I do not state that on my own authority and I do not know any more than my hon. and gallant Friend what is the actual state of Germany. I would recall to him, however, what happened to Germany, many years ago, when she was conquered by Napoleon—or, I think it was, when she was conquered earlier than that—and her army reduced to 20,000 men. That was the beginning of national service in Prussia. When she was compelled to reduce her army to 20,000 men she made an army of the nation. Whatever the League of Nations or any other absurdity of that sort may say, we never
    520
    can prevent Germany or any other great nation from having a strong army. We must not count on that. Is Germany our only enemy? I do not think it would be wise to go into details, but everybody in the House knows what I mean, and we have to deal with that. Take the Navy. I am informed that before the War the personnel of the Navy consisted of 150,000 men, which it is proposed to reduce to 98,000 men or less than America. I am informed that at the present moment America has 129,000 men in the Navy. What then becomes of the two-Power standard? What becomes of all the professions which those who have been some time in the House have so often heard, that, whatever foolishness you commit with the Army, you will have a strong Navy and command the seas? I see my hon. and gallant Friend who occupied a distinguished position in the Navy now thinks it more convenient to discuss the weather with his neighbour than listen to my observations on the Navy.
    I wish to emphasise the very dangerous character of the procedure to which the Government are now committing us. Children are to be sent to school at the age of 3, when they cannot possibly learn anything, instead of being sent there at the age of 5 or 6, which is, I believe, the age in every other country. Why is this done? Because it is good electioneering. Good electioneering cost this country a great deal before the War. We should have acted on Lord Roberts' recommendations, had it not been good electioneering to do otherwise, and I hope we have had enough of good electioneering and that we shall in future put before everything the safety of the country.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: In these economy Debates I usually have the pleasure of finding myself in complete agreement with my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), but in regard to the last portion of his speech, where he deprecated the proposed reduction in the fighting forces and then expressed his fear that very shortly we might be at issue with an enemy or enemies, I feel constrained to ask: What enemies, what possible enemies? Is it France? Is it the United States? Is it Japan? Is it Italy? Certainly it is not Germany, at the moment, anyhow. Her army organisation is completely shattered: of that there is no doubt at all.

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    I really hope that on calmer reflection my right hon. Friend will see that his fears, although perhaps natural from his political position and his record in the past—he always has been an upholder of an Army on the Continental scale and a Navy of tremendous dimensions—are unfounded. I hopes he will be able to see and to realise with us, and in the words of the Report, that, in view of the situation abroad,
    "with a broken and exhausted Europe, and with no German menace, we are to have far greater fighting power, with a larger personnel, and greater preparations for war than ever before in our history."
    Sir F. BANBURY: I will not rise and say what I fear to my right hon. Friend, but if he will allow me to see him in the Lobby, I will do so, but I would like to say this. Let him carry his mind back to the summer of 1914, when the present Prime Minister informed us in this House that that was the most opportune moment to reduce expenditure on the Army and Navy, and that in the following year, that is, in 1915, he proposed to make a great reduction in the expenditure on those two forces.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: There was then an enemy, which everybody knew.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: You did not.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: This time there is no answer to the question as to what enemy my right hon. Friend has in mind. Passing from that topic to the one which is more immediately before us, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his opening remarks, made a most extraordinary statement, and it was this, that the Government was not driven to the request to the Treasury early last year nor to the appointment of the Geddes Committee by any fear of the weight of criticism from these Benches or from other parts of the House, or from pressure outside, but largely owing to the new situation which had developed owing to our straitened financial circumstances. If that was the position, nothing could be more clear in its condemnation of their lack of foresight as to what the situation must have developed into, and he quoted with pride these very remarkable figures. He said that in the year 1918–19, taking the eight months of War and four months of what we call peace, the expenditure then was £2,965,000,000; it came down to £1,690,000,000, and then to £1,015,000,000,
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    and then it dropped to £825,000,000. While he was talking, I added those figures up, and, including the eight months of War, this country on those services—not the Consolidated Fund Services, but the Supply services—
    Sir R. HORNE: And Appropriation Grants.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Yes, but the gross expenditure amounted to no less than £6,495,000,000—an amazing record of money spent. If you exclude the year which was partly War and partly peace, you get over £3,000,000,000 on these services, and my right hon. Friend has the assurance to tell us that at last they are realising the seriousness of the situation. There never has been, during the past 40 or 50 years, a more complete vindication of criticism than the Geddes Report and the action of the Treasury Department during the past year under the direction of the Government. Year in and year out there has been an insistent cry, not confined to these benches, but from all parts of the House, urging the Government to make preparations for the evil days which must come, and now we know the evil days have fallen upon us. Whoever is entitled to credit for what has happened, it is not His Majesty's Government. They have empanelled a jury which has found them guilty on all indictments. Let me ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer one or two questions on his statement. He claims, as I understand it, that in the Estimates which will be submitted for next year there is a saving of about £181,000,000. Let me compare like with like. In the Financial Statement for 1921–22 I find the total Supply Services were £602,750,000. That is to be reduced, as I understand it, in round figures, to £484,000,000. That means that there is a saving of £118,000,000. I would ask my right hon. Friend whether he makes the comparison of like with like by adding Supplementary Estimates which have come in on the top of that?
    Sir R. HORNE: Supplementary Estimates on ordinary services—not special services.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: I know exactly what is meant. We have only too painful knowledge of what Supplementary Estimates are. We know to what the right hon. Gentleman is referring. What I want to know from him is this: In that

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    £484,000,000, which he anticipates as expenditure in the coming year, what allowance has he made for Supplementary Estimates? Has he made any? In the figure of £602,000,000 there was added the Supplementary Estimates, and £484,000,000 from that gives him his £181,000,000 of savings. I ask him whether in the £484,000,000 he has included an estimate for Supplementary Estimates? Has he, or has he not?
    Sir R. HORNE: There is no estimate for Supplementary Estimates in that.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Then that is, of course, a wholly fallacious estimate. We have had these Estimates from time to time submitted year after year, and always there is an Estimate from £15,000,000 to £25,000,000 put in for Supplementary Estimates. He ought at any rate to have done the normal thing, and that is added to that £484,000,000 at least £20,000,000. We know what has happened in regard to Supplementary Estimates since this Government took office. There has been no less than about from £420,000,000 to £450,000,000 of Supplementary Estimates. My right hon. Friend is astonished at that statement, but it is the bald truth of the situation. That having been the experience of the House of Commons and the country of the conduct of the financial proceedings by His Majesty's Government during these years, what chance is there on the coming year of there being no Supplementary Estimates? I will make my right hon. Friend a present of a suggestion. There will be at least £60,000,000 of Supplementary Estimates. That may be right or wrong, but at any rate he ought to have had some idea, judging from past experience, that his Estimate was a very risky Estimate to make. So far as the saving is concerned, I think we can look on that part of the Estimate with a sort of friendly suspicion. The Government's financial record fully entitles us to that.
    The next point to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is that, notwithstanding the display of financial rectitude and severe economy which now decorates the efforts of the Government, the cold fact remains that the country in the coming year will have to raise little, if anything, short of £900,000,000. Take the £484,000,000 to which reference has been made. The War charges, no doubt,
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    on the very low estimate I have put, stand at about £50,000,000. If you add the Consolidated Fund Services at about £370,000,000—they were £371,000,000 this year—and the right hon. Gentleman depends for a reduction on the better condition of the money market, which we all hope he will have the good fortune to have—I will allow him £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 on that—that brings the total, so far as I can make it up, to £920,000,000 or £925,000,000; in round figures the country, under the most favourable conditions, will have to raise £900,000,000. Can it do it? What is the position? The Treasury in their Circular say:
    "So far as can be seen at the present the ordinary revenue of the State in 1922–23, even if no taxation is remitted in that year, is not likely to exceed £950,000,000."
    That was in May of last year. Even the most pessimistic of us in May had no idea of the terrible disasters which would fall upon the country by November. When the new assessment of Income Tax falls to be made there will have to be brought in one of the most disastrous years for British trade in the last 30 years. What that will mean, not only in the lesser claims made, but in the lesser capacity of the taxpayer to pay them, I do not know. I feel certain that the revenue next year, unless His Majesty's Government go far beyond the proposals of this Report, must fall short of the expenditure, and instead of congratulating my right hon. Friend and his colleagues on what they have done, I say that this ought to have been done two years ago.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that with the common-sense method of the ordinary business man, whether it be a small grocer, a man who runs a great financial undertaking, or a large manufacturing concern, it is not a question of what his expenditure is, but what his revenue is that governs his methods. Until His Majesty's Government sees that common ordinary fact as the basis of their financial operations disaster must dog their footsteps and those of the country as well. They ought to have taken this not as a standard to work up to, but as a finger-post of progress to other larger and more sweeping reforms.
    I will conclude with a suggestion which I hope will meet with the approval of the whole House. On going through the three volumes of the Geddes Report I

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    find that they deal with round about 100 chapters. They deal with several Votes. Sometimes a chapter includes more than one Vote, and that means that these three volumes, and very valuable volumes they are, cover a wealth of criticism of Votes and points for examination well over 100 in number. What opportunity has the House to deal with that? Here is a situation which the whole country demands shall be dealt with instantly.
    Sir R. HORNE: You will have the Estimates very soon.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: As hon. Members know, we shall have about 20 days to deal with them, and hundreds of millions will pass under the guillotine without any discussion at all. I make this prediction that, while that might have been stood with equanimity in the past, I do not think the country will stand it this year from any Government, and the country demands that these Estimates shall be examined on the Floor of this House in detail. What the Government ought to do, and what any Government which may succeed it in the next two or three months ought to do, is this. If the House of Commons chooses to assert itself, to get back on its fundamental basis of controlling the finances of the country, and if the Government do not act up to what the nation demands, then the House of Commons should take the matter into its own hands—it can do so, if Members of all parties will bring pressure to bear on the Executive—what the Government ought to do is to demand the suspension of Standing Orders for the purpose of examining the Estimates on at least 40 days instead of 20.
    Sir R. HORNE: That was the number of days spent in the Wilderness.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: And those days were succeeded by reaching the Promised Land. If the Government will do this the country will begin to think they are in earnest. The Estimates will have to be gone into and carefully examined day after day and night after night. That is the only way to prove to the public that the Government are in earnest in this matter. It is the only way in which effective work can be done. I have a further suggestion to make. The right hon. Gentleman has made his statement on a very complicated matter of great lucidity and clearness, but that statement
    526
    could be made of still greater use to the House if he would produce in a White Paper the proposals of the Committee and the proposals of the Government in regard to them. I think that is a suggestion which might very well be carried out with benefit to us all.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) quoted some figures which I am going to ask the House to let me repeat; because although the Chancellor of the Exchequer first gave the figures to the House the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles quoted them for one purpose, and I am going to quote them for another purpose. He pointed out that the actual expenditure on the Supply services for the years 1918 and 1919 was £2,965,000,000, but that it dropped in the next three years respectively to £1,069,000,000, £1,015,000,000, and £825,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman quoted those figures as evidence of extravagance on the part of the- Government, but surely anyone realising those figures will say that they are evidence of the exact contrary. They are evidence of a definite attempt by the Government to reduce expenditure year by year in the figures over which they have any control. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government, far from dealing with this as a business man would deal with it, dealt with it extravagantly—that the business man would limit his expenditure by his revenue. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the Government, during those years, ought to have limited their expenditure by the revenue? Is that the real test that he would wish the Government to have applied to their expenditure during those years? During those years there was no difficulty about revenue. The Government could have spent more, if tested by the right hon. Gentleman's test. It was not revenue, it was the necessities of the case that forced that expenditure.
    Just see what the right hon. Gentleman overlooked altogether. He seems to have forgotten already the last year of the War and the condition in which the nation found itself. What was the real fact? Every man and every woman in the country who could do any work was working on behalf of the nation in order to win the War. Whether it was in the

    527
    Army or in munitions, every man and every woman was engaged—at relatively high payments, it is true—in endeavouring to win the War; and the Government, in those years to which the right hon. Gentleman calls attention, was endeavouring to demobilise the men in the Army and the men and women in munitions who were engaged at these high rates which the Government had in one way or another to spend. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that you could have turned all the men in the Army out into the street straight away? Does he suggest that, the munition workers having done their best to help to win the War, the Government should have said to them. "Well, we have no further use for your services, you can go into the street and beg for your living"? No. What happened was this. The Government had to spend, during those years, no less than £275,000,000 in getting back from war work into peace industry the people who were engaged in the War—both for the purpose of re-settling the soldiers and for insurance for those who were transferring from war work to civil work. There was an expenditure of something like £275,000,000. Was that to be tested by the revenue, or was it to be tested by the necessities of the case? The test of the right hon. Gentleman is a test which might be applied to a grocer's shop, as he suggested, but it could not be applied to His Majesty's Government, who were trying to carry on the business of the nation, and the business of the nation was not to be ungrateful to those of its subjects who had done so much towards winning the War.
    Mr. CAIRNS: You are ungrateful: you have the men on the streets now.
    Sir L. W0RTHINGT0N-EVANS: That, of course, is not an argument for greater economy at this moment. I can quite understand the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cairns) saying that we are spending too little, but I cannot understand that interruption as supporting the right hon. Gentleman's contention that we are spending too much.
    Mr. CAIRNS: I was not supporting the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean).
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: These figures, if properly understood, are evidence that the Government, at the
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    earliest possible moment, set about putting their house in order. At the earliest possible moment they reduced their expenditure, and I know very well that some hon. Members, like the hon. Member for Morpeth who interrupted just now, think that that expenditure was reduced too quickly, and that, if it had not been reduced so quickly, if deflation had not taken place as quickly as it did, perhaps the state of unemployment would not be so bad to-day; and there is a great deal to be said in favour of that argument—but it does not support the right hon. Gentleman. Not at all. These figures do show, if they show anything at all, that the Government has done its best to reduce expenditure as rapidly as possible. I take the view that the Government, having done that, and having seen that further reductions had to take place if expenditure was to be kept within probable revenue, took quite the right course in setting up the Geddes Committee. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman again, notwithstanding his derision, that that was not forced upon the Government. Not at all. It was part of a deliberate policy of reduction as part of these four sets of figures. What was intended was that still further reductions should take place, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer set up that Committee to advise him. I have heard it suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought himself to have been Chairman of that Committee. In the normal course the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been Chairman of a Committee if he desired a Committee to help to advise him. But are these times normal? Is it possible for any Chancellor to take the chair at a Committee that is going to spend six months of time in doing nothing, but examine expenditure of Departments. The right hon. Gentleman, if he ever occupies the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer, will find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a great many other duties to perform than merely the duty—though that is a very important one and I am not belittling it for a moment—of checking the expenditure of the various Departments. To-day he has a duty which he has never had before. He has a bigger financial business than any banker in the United Kingdom. He has his own business with his short loans, just under £1,000,000,000 at this moment of

    529
    Treasury bills, and another £500,000,000 or £600,000,000 of short loans, with all his foreign business both on the creditor and debtor side of his account, to say nothing of reparations. He has much more business than any other Chancellor has ever had, and although it would have been normal that he should have been Chairman of such a Committee and should preside over its deliberations, yet in the abnormal conditions in which we live he was right in farming out that work to some one else to advise him so that he might maintain his check over the other business he has to do.
    The right hon. Gentleman has made various suggestions. He said the House of Commons ought to take this matter into its own hands. He is hardly fair to his fellow Members of the House of Commons. I do not think the House of Commons has failed to take this matter into their own hands. For months and months past, although we have always invited constructive suggestions, we have not been favoured with very many suggestions. We have been favoured with a wealth of criticism, but not with any constructive suggestions. The particular one to which the right hon. Gentleman pledged himself to-night was that the Supplementary Estimates next year would be at least sixty millions. That is to be noted, and he will have an opportunity no doubt either that to say that he was right, or that he was wrong when the time comes. He has no right, however, because he makes a wild guess of that sort, to say that our definite estimates of savings next year are not going to be realised. The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to say he does not think they will be realised, but he ought to give some ground for that. No ground has been given. To say that there were Supplementary Estimates in the past is no argument that there will be Supplementary Estimates in the future. Let me show why. During the whole of the last three years we have been having War remnants of all sorts. Even this year I am going to have to present a Supplementary Estimate which by no possibility of careful estimating last year could have been foreseen. I will not go into the details to-day. It will come before the House in a week or two. But the House will see it is absolutely impossible to have foreseen the cost of re-conditioning ships
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    which have been used as troopers during the year.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: That is exactly what I meant.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: But that is a War charge. The difference between the three last years is this Constantly we have been face to face with War charges—charges arising out of War conditions, and this next, year we are going to get into a period of peace so far as we know, and unless the Estimates are upset by War contingencies, which no man can prophesy, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is satisfied that there will be the saving of £181,000,000 to which he referred. Then the right hon. Gentleman suggested that a White Paper should be published showing the recommendations of the Geddes Report and the action proposed to be taken by the Government. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer could usefully put such a Paper before the House on all the services, but, speaking for my own Department, if the House would desire to have a summary of the recommendations with regard to the Army Votes before the Estimates are discussed in this House, I should be quite willing to put in a White Paper showing the proposals of the Geddes Committee and the way in which I was proposing to deal with them. I do not think it could be done as a White Paper with regard to all the Departments, but it can be done, perhaps, by the separate Departments dealing with their own Estimates, and if that be of advantage to the House, so far as I am concerned, I shall be very glad to do that.
    I want the House to realise that the Government are serious in this matter. It may well be that, thinking of those outside the House, the right hon. Gentleman is obliged to suggest that the Government are not serious, but here he cannot challenge us unless he can show us in what way we can be more serious and more definite in our desire for economy than we are at the moment. He is bound to show that we are not taking the course we ought to take, if he makes that charge against us. I could not find anything substantial in his speech, cither that the Government were taking a course they I ought not to take, or were taking the

    531
    course they ought to take. Unless he can be more specific, I think we are entitled to ask the House to believe we are quite serious in our endeavour to cut down expenditure on non-essential services to the greatest possible extent, so that, not merely expenditure may be reduced, but ultimately taxation may also be reduced.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Will you kindly tell us when we shall have your Estimate?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I suppose it will not be possible to publish the volume in time for the Vote on Account. I expect to take the Vote on Account about the middle of March.
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
    The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920.
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Dursley Gas Light and Coke Company, Limited, which was presented on the 22nd February, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Newport (Monmouthshire) Gas Company, which was presented on the 23rd February, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Rushden and Higham Ferrers District Gas Company, which was presented on the 20th February, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Stafford, which was presented on the 22nd February, he approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Swansea Gas Light Company, which was presented on the 22nd February, be approved."
Resolved,
"That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Torquay, which was presented on the 22nd February, be approved."—[Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson.]

ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY [PAYMENT OF CALLS].
Committee to consider of authorising the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums, not exceeding in the whole nine hundred and fifty thousand pounds, as are required for the payment of calls on share capital in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, Limited; of authorising the Treasury to borrow money by the creation of securities for the issue of such sums or the repayment thereof, the principal of and interest on any such securities to be charged on the Consolidated Fund; and of amending the Law with respect to the application of dividends or interest on capital held in the said Company—(King's Recommendation signified)—To-morrow.—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]

ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
Adjourned accordingly at Three Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

IRELAND.
  SPIRITS (CUSTOMS DUTY, GREAT BRITAIN).
  SPIRITS (CUSTOMS DUTY, GREAT BRITAIN).
  PRISON OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
  PRISON OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
  ALLEGED SEIZURE OF ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY.
  ALLEGED SEIZURE OF ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY.
  LONDONDERRY GAOL (RELEASED PRISONERS).
  LONDONDERRY GAOL (RELEASED PRISONERS).
  BRITISH TROOPS.
  BRITISH TROOPS.
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
  OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT.
  OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT.
  EDUCATION.
  EDUCATION.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  CRAIGAVON HOSPITAL PATIENTS (PROTECTION).
  CRAIGAVON HOSPITAL PATIENTS (PROTECTION).
  MEDICAL TREATMENT (EMPLOYERS' CERTIFICATE).
  MEDICAL TREATMENT (EMPLOYERS' CERTIFICATE).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  POST OFFICE PAYMENTS.
  POST OFFICE PAYMENTS.
  APPEALS.
  APPEALS.
  INSTITUTIONAL TREATMENT.
  INSTITUTIONAL TREATMENT.
POST OFFICE.
  STORES DEPARTMENT (WAR WIDOWS).
  STORES DEPARTMENT (WAR WIDOWS).
  SUNDAY POST.
  SUNDAY POST.
  GENOA CONFERENCE (TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION).
  GENOA CONFERENCE (TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION).
  CIRCULARS POSTED IN GERMANY.
  CIRCULARS POSTED IN GERMANY.
  DELIVERY OF LETTERS, AUSTRUTHER EASTERN.
  DELIVERY OF LETTERS, AUSTRUTHER EASTERN.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  AUSTRALIAN ZINC MINING COMPANIES.
  AUSTRALIAN ZINC MINING COMPANIES.
  LIVESTOCK EXPORTS (FREIGHTS).
  LIVESTOCK EXPORTS (FREIGHTS).
  EXPORT CREDITS (RUSSIA).
  EXPORT CREDITS (RUSSIA).
  MUSICAL TOYS (IMPORT DUTY).
  MUSICAL TOYS (IMPORT DUTY).
  S.S. "LANCASTRIAN" (WAGES).
  S.S. "LANCASTRIAN" (WAGES).
  SLAB FACTORY AND AERODROME, YATE.
  SLAB FACTORY AND AERODROME, YATE.
  GOVERNMENT FURNITURE, GRETNA.
  GOVERNMENT FURNITURE, GRETNA.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  WHITLEY COUNCIL.
  WHITLEY COUNCIL.
  OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT.
  OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
TRANSPORT.
  CYCLES (REAR-LIGHTS).
  CYCLES (REAR-LIGHTS).
  FRUIT AND VEGETABLES (RAILWAY RATES).
  FRUIT AND VEGETABLES (RAILWAY RATES).
  REQUISITIONED COAL WAGONS, HINCKLEY.
  REQUISITIONED COAL WAGONS, HINCKLEY.
  RAILWAY ASSESSMENT.
  RAILWAY ASSESSMENT.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  PROSECUTION, HAMILTON.
  PROSECUTION, HAMILTON.
  LEAD AND ZINC MINES.
  LEAD AND ZINC MINES.
  RELIEF WORK, SHERINGHAM (WAGES).
  RELIEF WORK, SHERINGHAM (WAGES).
  RUSSIA (SEIZURE OF BRITISH TRAWLER).
  RUSSIA (SEIZURE OF BRITISH TRAWLER).
  GENOA CONFERENCE.
  GENOA CONFERENCE.
  BIGAMY.
  BIGAMY.
  WHIST DRIVES (PROSECUTIONS).
  WHIST DRIVES (PROSECUTIONS).
  CITY OF LONDON POLICE (COMMISSIONER'S SALARY).
  CITY OF LONDON POLICE (COMMISSIONER'S SALARY).
  DRUNKENNESS, LONDON.
  DRUNKENNESS, LONDON.
  PALESTINE.
  PALESTINE.
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
  VENEREAL DISEASE.
  VENEREAL DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE, EAST LONDON.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE, EAST LONDON.
  WAR COMPENSATION COURT (APPEALS).
  WAR COMPENSATION COURT (APPEALS).
  POLAND.
  POLAND.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

GUARDIANSHIP, ETC., OF INFANTS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, the Bill for which I desire to ask a Second Reading at your Lordships' hands is entitled: "An Act to amend the Law relating to the guardianship, maintenance, custody and marriage of infants." It is a rather long title, and the Bill is rather long. In some points it seems to be highly technical, but when you come to consider its principles it really resolves itself into a comparatively simple one. The idea of the Bill is, firstly that there should be as between the parents greater equality of authority, rights, and responsibility with regard to their children; secondly, that the maintenance of the children should be better assured; and, thirdly, that the effecting of that maintenance should be improved by the strengthening of machinery by which maintenance can be obtained.
The law, as it stands at present, I apprehend to be that the father has the sole right of deciding where the child shall live, the bringing up of the child and the custody of the child, and may take it away, even though the mother may object, in certain circumstances—the law which proceeds upon the presumption, handed down from very ancient days, of the father's power over the child. That law is mitigated in England by the Statute of 1886. Since that year a good deal has happened with regard to the policy in this country governing the relations and powers of men and women. Although for that reason alone I should not introduce this Bill, yet I have persuaded myself that it would be of considerable advantage to many children in this country, and I commend it to your Lordships.
Clauses 3 and 6 deal with the joint authority of the father and mother. The Act of 1886 provided that the father alone

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should have power over the child, but Clause 3 of this Bill proposes that—
"The father and mother of every legitimate infant shall for all purposes be the joint guardians, and shall, subject as hereinafter enacted, have the joint custody of such infant and have equal authority, rights, and responsibility with regard to such infant, any rule of law or equity heretofore in force to the contrary notwithstanding."
Clause 6 is a long clause dealing with the methods of appointing guardians and is largely an adaptation of two sections in the Act of 1886. It provides that if the parents disagree, or if there is difficulty over the custody and conduct of the child's life, through the parting of the parents, the Court can come in and decide between them. In addition, the mother would have the same power of appointing a guardian at law after her death, or in the event of a child requiring a guardian, as the father now has. At the present time the mother has not that power. Those are the two chief clauses dealing with the guardianship of children.
There are several clauses dealing with maintenance, notably Clause 4, to which I may make brief allusion. Clause 4 says that,—
"The father and the mother of every legitimate infant shall be jointly and severally liable for the cost of the maintenance and education of such infant according to the means of such father and mother respectively."
and, at the end of the clause, it is proposed that this authority against the father and the mother according to their means shall operate against "the heirs, executors or administrators of any deceased father or mother."
Clause 5 (b) gives power to the Court to order, for the maintenance or education of the child, that any sums under trust may be paid "to the person to whose care the infant is committed." Clause 5 (d) provides that in making any such order for payment the Court shall have regard to the ability of the father or mother to make such payment, and shall consider the position and condition of life in which it is reasonable that the infant should be brought up, and "any property to which the infant is or may be entitled in its own right." Paragraph (e) of the same clause meets a difficulty which has been very serious in many cases, because it enacts that the payment of money under the clause may be enforced in the same manner as an order of affiliation, provided that, at the discretion of the Court, imprisonment for non-compliance
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with the order shall not extinguish the debt. There have been cases, several of which have been collected, in which a man has been quite ready to go to prison to get rid of arrears of payment for the maintenance of his child. Under this proposal he would not get rid of that debt, and the arrears would still be obtainable from him.
Clause 5 (h) provides that—
"In the event of failure of any person required to make such payments to do so, the court may authorise the sums payable under the order or any part thereof to be deducted from his or her wages and paid on behalf of the infant to an officer of the court or some other fit person specified in the order, and in any such case the employer of that person may make the necessary deductions from his wages, and such order shall be an authority to the employer to make the payment so authorised, and the receipt of the person to whom the payment is so ordered to be made shall be a good discharge to such employer."
It will be seen that authority is given to the Court to authorise a deduction from wages, and for that deduction to be paid over to the officer of the Court for the benefit of the infant. That is an easy method of obtaining payment; the necessity of the wages having to be paid to the woman or man, as the case may be, is avoided, and they need not meet together over the difficulty of obtaining the money. Another advantage of that provision is this. At present if a woman requires her husband to supply maintenance she can obtain it only by means of a separation. It is of prime importance, particularly with the poor, that separation and the consequent break-up of the home should not take place. But a woman may have considerable difficulty in obtaining the money. Under this suggestion the money would be tapped at the source, and be paid to an officer of the Court, who would see that the woman got it.
Then there are clauses which have been adopted from the Children's Act, 1912—namely, Clause 5 (i) and (j) under which payment can be made to an officer of the Court, and the certificate of the employer shall be prima facie evidence
"that the wages therein stated as having been paid to any person, have in fact been paid."
I think those are all the clauses dealing with maintenance.
The other clauses are of various kinds. They give power to the Court with regard to the removal of guardians in unfit cases, and to guardianship in cases of divorce or judicial separation. Clause 9 allows the

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Court, when due cause is shown, from time to time to revoke, suspend or vary the order on the application of any party affected by it. That is an addition to the law, and one which seems, prima facie, very valuable. Clause 10 deals with certain cases where the marriage of a legitimate infant requires consent. The clause has been inserted at the suggestion of the Registrar-General. It is, I believe, a fact that at the present time a great many marriages take place entirely in contravention of the law. If a husband is absent for twenty years the Registrar-General, without any statutory authority, has to assume that he is dead. If the husband has been absent for seven years the Registrar-General would assume that he is dead, but there is no statutory authority for that, and Sections 16 and 17 of the Act of George IV certainly require amendment, and probably would have been amended before this had attention been called to the matter.
Then, under Clause 11 and other clauses, this Bill is made to apply to Courts of Summary Jurisdiction. It is of high importance that, if possible, the provisions for the maintenance of children should be made to apply to the homes of the poor, so that the children of poor parents should not suffer in comparison with those who are more wealthy. I think the provisions of this Bill, although some portions of it may be difficult from the point of legal administration, would have that effect.
It is proposed to apply the Bill to Scotland and England, but not to Ireland. The Scottish law, I am informed, is far more broad, and on a much sounder basis, in the opinion of many, than the law which appertains to England. There are no wards in Court in Scotland, but there are provisions for aliment and for obtaining maintenance in a much stronger way than is possible in this country. Almost the only alteration that would be made in the law of Scotland by the provisions of this Bill is, I think, the joint power of appointing a guardian. The Bill is not meant to apply to Ireland, because, in present circumstances, it would he impracticable to suggest that it should. A Bill in almost similar terms, with the exception of the clause with regard to marriage, was introduced in another place last year. After a long debate it passed, without a Division, through its Second Reading, and through Committee, but, owing to the session coming to a close, and to pressure of public
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business, it could not be proceeded with further. It is introduced now in this House with a hope that, if it can pass through your Lordships' House, it will again find acceptance in another place, and become the law of the land.
I may add that I should nut quite adopt the strong words of the Agent-General for British Columbia, who wrote of a similar Bill in that country that. it "has had the effect of wiping out one of the most abominable anomalies of British law under which, for centuries, mothers have been deprived of the natural right to the guardianship or to a share in the guardianship of their children"; but I would point out that in several Colonies—that Colony as well as others in New Zealand, and in Queensland, this kind of provision for the greater authority of the mother over her own child has been enacted, and enacted with some success. I trust your Lordships may be willing to give this Bill a Second Reading. The legal difficulties can doubtless be considered in Committee. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Askwith.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the objects of this Bill have the sympathy of His Majesty's Government, but, in saying that, I hope your Lordships will not understand that I am committing the Government to any definite course of Parliamentary action. In its present form, as I think the noble Lord suggested, the Bill presents numerous legal difficulties, and these would render it impossible for the Government to accept the Bill as it stands. I do not think that I need trouble your Lordships by discussing the exact nature of these difficulties at the present time, but I have a suggestion to make to my noble friend which, I trust, will prove acceptable to him. A small Committee of the Cabinet has been formed to consider the whole of this question, and it has been suggested that the noble Lord who introduced the Bill might meet that Committee, and confer with them with a view to seeing if a solution of the question cannot be arrived at. If that proposal be acceptable to my noble friend, I am prepared to agree to the Second Reading of the Bill, provided that it is understood that the Government are not committed to any definite course of Parliamentary action in consequence.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I am glad that on behalf of the Government the necessity of doing something in the matter has been recognised, and this Bill received with sympathy. The Bill seems to me to be one which only brings up the law to the general level at which it ought to be, having regard to the changed status which has recently been enacted between husband and wife. There are various points in the measure which I think would require consideration, but they are mostly of a drafting character. For instance, Clause 5, in its relation to Clause 3, is, I think, hardly wide enough. Clause 3 relates to custody and other rights. Clause 5, in the first part of it, is confined to custody only. There are numbers of other rights which have come before this House in its judicial capacity, and which constantly come before the Courts. These have to be considered, and I am not sure that this Bill provides for them quite fully. For example, there is the question in what religion the child ought to be educated. Prima facie the father has the right to say that, but the father may be a very unfit person. I have known that to be the case over and over again in cases which have come before the tribunals. No doubt these things will be considered.
As to the general principle of the Bill, I am wholly in accord with it, but there are matters of detail which require looking into. I am not sure that the provisions of the Scottish Law really throw so very much light upon this matter as is conceived. It is quite true you do not make children wards there, but you do appoint what are called curators. I do not apologise to your Lordships for my pronunciation of the word curator, because long ago, when at that Bar a distinguished Scottish counsel was challenged for speaking of curators, he apologised to such distinguished senators and orators as your Lordships are." Be that as it may, it is very satisfactory to know that the whole matter is coming before a Committee of the Cabinet, and I hope all these points will be taken into consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

DISTRIBUTION OF WAR MEDALS.
VISCOUNT ULLSWATER: My Lords, I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress has been made
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with the distribution of war medals to ex-Service men; whether the distribution is made by regiments or by districts; is priority given to length of service or to date of discharge; and how long will it he before the distribution is completed.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, having had the honour for many years of sitting under the presidency of the noble Viscount in another place, and having frequently appealed to him on points of Order, it is rather a new sensation for me to be in the position of trying to provide him with information.
With regard to the first part of the Question the following commemorative medals and stars have been issued by the War Office up to and including February 28, 1922:—

—

Home.

Dominions and Colonies.

Total.

1914 Stars

350,330

Nil

350,330

1914–15 Stars

1,635,050

292,277

1,927,327

British War Medals

3,472,322

861,875

4,334,197

Victory Medals

3,462,617

689,803

4,152,420

The medals and stars are distributed, in the case of officers, direct from the War Office; in the case of other ranks, through officers in charge of Record Offices; and in the case of Dominion troops, through their respective Governments.
With regard to the issue of the medals and stars from the Army Record Offices the following is the position. The total receipts at the Record Offices of 1914 and 1914–15 Stars, are 1,299,446, and the total issues are 1,241,838, with a balance on hand on January 28, 1922, of 57,608. As to British War Medals the total receipts at the Record Offices are 3,168,486 and total issues, 2,595,550, leaving a balance in hand on January 28, 1922, of 572,936. In the case of Victory Medals the total receipts are 3,296,542 and total issues 2,670,113, leaving a balance in hand on the same date of 626,429.
As regards the second part of the Question the distribution is made by regiments and corps, and not by districts. With regard to the third point, the answer is

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that priority is not given to length of service or to date of discharge. The medal rolls are prepared either alphabetically by corps or in sequence of the men's former regimental numbers. It would slow up the whole distribution to select names by any system which gave priority for length of service or date of discharge. With regard to the last point in the Question, it is hoped that the distribution of all commemorative medals and stars will be completed by the end of 1922, but the rate of issue may decrease in proportion to the rate of decrease of staff and the final date may be a little after the end of this year.
I understand that the noble Viscount is specially interested in certain regiments. The bulk issue of medals for the Norfolk and Suffolk regiments is completed, and the issue for the Essex regiment practically complete also. Medals are issued to officers in charge of Record Offices, and issue in these cases is made from the Record Office at Warley to the individuals concerned. I may add that the chief difficulty with which officers in charge of Record Offices have to contend is that of finding the addresses of the individuals entitled to the medals and stars. If any addresses can be furnished to assist the officers at Warley they would be greatly appreciated.
VISCOUNT ULLSWATER: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for the information he has given me. May I risk him one further Question, and it is whether it would be the proper course on the part of the men who have not received their medals to apply to their Record Office, or how can they make it known that the medals have not been received?
VISCOUNT PEEL: They would be perfectly in order in writing to their Record Office and in that case would, of course, give their addresses. It is probably owing to changes of address, or the addresses having been forgotten, that the medals have not been sent.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, on behalf of Lord HYLTON, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª: Committee negatived.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I beg to make the Motion standing in the name of Lord Hylton.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3ª, and passed.

CLINICAL THERMOMETERS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at half-past four o'clock.

HUNTINGFIELD (CLAIM TO VOTE).
Committee for Privileges to meet on Thursday, March 9. Several witnesses ordered to attend and one of them to produce documents.
LANARKSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  STIRLING CORPORATION (WATER, ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  To be read 3ª on Tuesday next.
CROYDON GAS.
Petition of the Croydon Gas Company, under their Common Seal, praying for leave to introduce a Bill to convert the existing capital of the company, to authorise the raising of additional capital, and for other purposes; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
OSSETT CORPORATION (WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Order made on February 21 last discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next.

TEES CONSERVANCY BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Great Northern Railway [H.L.].

Sandwich Port and Haven [H.L.].

Newhaven and Seaford Water [H.L.].

Legal and General Assurance Society[H.L.].

Milford Docks [H.L.].

Also the Certificate that the Standing I Orders in respect of the Petition for the following Bill have not been complied with:
Chester Gas.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

KILMARNOCK GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2ª (Lord Stanmore), and reported from the Committee.
CORONERS (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS CONTINUANCE) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.