Sitting of 20 February 1922

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
London County Council (Tramways, Trolley Vehicles, and Improvements) Bill,
South Staffordshire Water Bill,
To be read a Second Time To-morrow.

STIRLING CORPORATION (WATER, ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Stirling Corporation (Water, etc.)," presented by Mr. MUNRO; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow.

LOCAL LEGISLATION COMMITTEE.
Ordered, "That the Committee of Selection do nominate a Committee, not exceeding Fifteen Members, to be called the Local Legislation Committee, to whom shall be committed all Private Bills promoted by municipal and other local authorities by which it is proposed to create powers relating to police, sanitary, or other Local Government Regulations in conflict with, deviation from, or excess of the provisions of the general law."
Ordered, "That Standing Orders 124, 150 and 173a apply to all such Bills."
Ordered, "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."
Ordered, "That Four be the quorum."
Ordered, "That if the Committee shall report to the Committee of Selection that any Clauses of any Bill referred to them (other than Clauses containing police, sanitary, or other Local Government Regulations) are such as, having regard to the terms of reference, it is not in their opinion necessary or advisable for them to deal with, the Committee of Selection shall thereupon refer the Bill
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to a Select Committee, who shall consider those Clauses and so much of the Preamble of the Bill as relates thereto, and shall determine the expenditure (if any) to be authorised in respect of the parts of the Bill referred to them. That the Committee shall deal with the remaining Clauses of such Bill, and so much of the Preamble as relates thereto, and shall determine the period and mode of repayment of any money authorised by the Select Committee to be borrowed and shall report the whole Bill to the House, stating in their Report what parts of the Bill have been considered by each Committee."
Ordered, "That the Committee have power, if they so determine, to sit as two Committees, and in that event to apportion the Bills referred to the Committee between the two Committees, each of which shall have the full powers of and be subject to the instructions which apply to the undivided Committee, and that Four be the quorum of each of the two Committees."—[Sir J. Baird.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.

    FABRIC GLOVE INDUSTRY.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act has yet given its decision on the inclusion of the fabric glove industry; and, if so, when will such decision be announced to the House?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Baldwin): The Report of the Committee has been received, and the question what action should be taken in regard to the matter referred to is under consideration. The decision arrived at will be announced in due course, and I would remind my hon. Friend that any Order made under Part II of the Act is subject to confirmation by resolution of this House.

    COMPLAINTS AND INQUIRIES.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act have been made; how many have been referred to a Committee; how many have been heard; and upon how many cases formal decisions have been given?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Including formal complaints and inquires with a view to formulating complaints, approximately 100 trades or branches of trades have communicated with the Board. Eight complaints have been referred to Committees: in one case the Committee have reported, and their report is under consideration. No formal decision has yet been taken.

    ADMINISTRATION.
    Mr. A. SHAWasked the President of the Board of Trade how many persons in his Department are engaged in the administration of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and what is the total amount of their salaries?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The administration of the Safeguarding of Industries Act is being carried out by the staff of the Department in addition to its previous duties. No additional staff has been engaged for the purpose. This was rendered possible by the winding up of certain other work.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does that mean that if we had not had this Measure these persons would have been dispensed with and the staff reduced, and that, consequently, there has been no real saving, but extravagance?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I do not go so far as that.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Could the right hon. Gentleman, if asked, give the House an estimate of the expenses in salaries and otherwise that the Act involves?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Yes, I should be prepared to do that as far as I can.
    Mr. HOGGE: How far will the right hon. Gentleman go?
    Mr. J. WALLACEasked the President of the Board of Trade how many additional officials have been added to the Customs Department, or how many
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    Government officials have been diverted from other Departments to discharge duties in connection with the administration of the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): The work falling on the Customs and Excise Department in connection with the Safeguarding of Industries Act is being performed by the existing Customs and Excise staff, supplemented by seven extra temporary clerks.

    IMPORTED GOODS (PERMANENT PANELS).
    Mr. HOGGEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the names of the gentlemen appointed by him to consider applications under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act for the imposition of duty on imported goods; and can he at the same time state what professions, businesses, or organisations these gentlemen are connected with?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am having printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the members of the Permanent Panel appointed under Section 7 of the Act, from which Committees of five are selected from time to time to hold inquiries under Part II of the Act. Of the 45 members of the panel 33 are persons of commercial or industrial experience, while the remainder are specially fitted for this kind of work by their legal, economic, or administrative qualifications. All the members are appointed on their personal qualifications, and not as representing any particular interest, and I think it might be misleading to publish officially a list purporting to label them as connected with particular professions, businesses, or organisations.
    Mr. HOGGE: As these inquiries concern these particular businesses, why is the right hon. Gentleman not willing to publish the trades and professions to which they belong?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I think the names are very familiar to those who move in the businesses—
    Mr. KILEY: No, no!
    Mr. BALDWIN: I think so; but I will consider the question, though I can assure my hon. Friend that there are difficulties in labelling people officially.
    Mr. HOGGE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that this means instability? If the result of these inquiries is to convince people whose businesses are being inquired into, they ought to know that they are not being exploited by people in the same business.
    Mr. BALDWIN: I quite recognise that; but I should have thought my hon. Friend desired stability in any case.
    Sir A. SHIRLEY BENN: Has the right hon. Gentleman had any complaints about these names?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Not yet
    Following is the list mentioned:—
    PANEL UNDER PART II OF THE SAFE-GUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.

    Sir W. M. Acworth,

    J. Arthur Aiton, C.B.E.,

    Sir Thomas W. Allen,

    Professor Sir William Ashley, Ph.D.,

    Arthur Balfour, J.P.,

    Sir George S. Barnes, K.G.B., K.C.S.I.,

    Sir John N. Barran, Bt.,

    Alderman J. Beard,

    F. J. Blakemore, F.G.I.,

    J. T. Brownlie, C.B.E.,

    Sir Cecil L. Budd, K.B.E.,

    Sir James C. Calder, C.B.E.,

    Dr. J. H. Clapham, C.B.E.,

    T. P. Cook, J.P.,

    F. R. Davenport,

    A. K. Davies,

    Frank P. Dorizzi,

    Rayner Goddard,

    Professor Sir E. C. K. Gonner, K.B.E.,

    A. E. Holmes,

    Alexander Johnston, J.P.,

    Sir George R. Lowndes, K.C.S.I., K.C.,

    Professor D. H. Macgregor,

    Stanley Machin, J.P.,

    J. F. Mason, J.P.,

    Frank Moore,

    G. A. Moore,

    J. W. Murray, D.L.,

    Sir Douglas Newton, K.B.E.,

    Owen Parker, C.B.E., J.P.,

    R. G. Perry, C.B.E.,

    Arthur Pugh,

    E. W. Rainer,

    Sir R. Henry Rew, K.C.B.,

    James Rowan, J.P.,

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    O. A. Russell, K.C.,

    T. H. Ryland, J.P.,

    Arthur Shaw,

    H. G. Spicer,

    Sir Charles Stewart, K.B.E.,

    Sir Edwin F. Stockton, J.P.,

    H. L. Symonds,

    Gilbert C. Vyle,

    Sir Frank Warner, K.B.E.,

    Provost A. B. Weir.

    Mr. HOGGEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Reports of the committees appointed by him under Part II of the Safeguarding of Industries Act will be published; whether he can state if, in the event of a disagreement, the Report of the majority will be accepted; and whether, if the evidence is only heard by two or three Members of the panel, the absent Members are entitled to vote on evidence which they have not heard?
    Mr. BALDWIN: It is proposed to present the Reports to Parliament, and to publish them in the ordinary course. With regard to the second part of the question, it will be the duty of the Board of Trade to consider the Reports, and due weight will of course be attached to any disagreement. With regard to the last part, I would remind the hon. Member that shorthand notes are taken of the evidence heard before Committees, and Members who have been absent from any meeting or meetings are able to make themselves fully acquainted with the evidence at those meetings by means of the written transcript.
    Mr. A. SHAW: Has the right hon. Gentleman arrived at an estimate of the cost of the shorthand notes of these proceedings before these Committees?
    Mr. BALDWIN: It would be very easy to ascertain it if my hon. Friend desires.

    SCHEDULED CHEMICALS (PRICES).
    Dr. MURRAYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the statement made before the referee that the day following the publication of the Board of Trade list wherein Santonine was included as a fine chemical and subject to a duty of 33⅓ per cent. the wholesale dealers increased their price by 30 per cent.; can he give the number of other commodities on which similar in-

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    creases were imposed; if not, can he take any action to ascertain the number; and would he consider the advisability, on any other fresh articles being included, of providing legislation to prevent an increase in price except on goods on which duty has actually been paid?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am aware that the statement mentioned by the hon. Member was made in the course of the Santonine case. I am unable to state in how many cases advances were made, but I may point out that in a number of instances the prices of chemicals have fallen since the Act was passed. An inquiry into the price movements of all commodities covered by the Schedule to the Act would involve so much labour that it would not be justified by the utility of the results obtained. The suggestion made in the last part of the question is, in my opinion, impracticable.
    Dr. MURRAY: Could not the right hon. Gentleman even attend to these people, and make them aware, say, of the opinion of the Minister of Health, that every man who benefits by the tariff is a robber, and that, therefore, a man who benefits by a prospective tariff is worse than a robber?

    GAS MANTLES.
    Mr. KILEYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can explain why the decision of the referee under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, imposing a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on certain parts of gas mantles, has not been put into operation?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The referee has been asked by the complainants, the manufacturers of gas mantles, to state a case for the consideration of the High Court. The referee has acceded to that request, and in the meantime the award has not been signed. Consequently, there is no decision which can be put into operation.
    Mr. KILEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea as to when a conclusion will be reached?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am afraid I cannot.

    IMPOSITION CIF DUTIES.
    Mr. KILEYasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in addition to the 540 commodities to which objections have been taken under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, over 300 applica-
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    tions have been made, representing over 100 different trades, for the imposition of a duty; if so, what arrangement he proposes to make to deal with the same; if he is aware of the serious difficulties caused to trade by the delay in dealing with these applications, as manufacturers are reluctant to make contracts, which have to be made many months in advance for their raw materials, and traders are reluctant to print their price lists and also to approach their overseas buyers owing to the uncertainties that might arise in the event of a duty being imposed before they could complete their contracts?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The answer to the first part of the question, which I assume relates to Part I of the Act, is in the negative. The number of 540 commodities mentioned by the hon. Member includes complaints under Section 1 (5) both as to inclusion in and exclusion from the lists issued by the Board of Trade, as indicated in the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Lambeth North on the 13th February. I am not aware of the difficulties to which the hon. Member refers, and I have received no representations on the subject. As I have previously stated, it is only in a very limited number of cases that complainants have indicated their intention of proceeding with the complaints.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BALANCE OF TRADE (GERMANY).
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether an estimate can be prepared of the German balance of trade on lines similar to those adopted by the Board of Trade for estimating the British balance of trade, which is published periodically in the "Board of Trade Journal"?
    Mr. BALDWIN: On two occasions rough estimates of the balance of trade of the United Kingdom have been published in the "Board of Trade Journal," but, as pointed out at the time, these estimates were based on information which, although the best obtainable, was imperfect. I regret that I am not in possession of information which would enable an estimate, however rough, to be prepared of the balance of trade of Germany.
    Mr. HANNON: Is the Intelligence Department of the Board of Trade keeping in touch with what is happening in Germany?
    Mr. BALDWIN: We are trying to.

    TRADE WITH PORTUGAL.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the President of the Board of Trade the value of the

    STATEMENT showing the trade of the United Kingdom with Portugal by values, in the years 1919, 1920, and 1921.

    Branch of Trade.

    1919.

    1920.

    1921.

    £

    £

    £

    Imports from Portugal:—

    10,797,000

    6,899,000

    4,195,000

    Exports to Portugal:—

    United Kingdom Produce and Manufactures

    6,435,000

    10,555,000

    3,396,000

    Foreign and Colonial Merchandise

    1,203,000

    1,497,000

    755,000

    Total Exports

    7,638,000

    12,052,000

    4,151,000

    NOTE.—The figure for 1921 are provisional and subject to slight amendment on final examination of the returns.

    TRADE WITH GERMANY.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the total value of the exports and imports of this country with Germany for the year 1921; and whether the figures show an increase or decrease on the previous year's figures?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The answer involves a statistical table which, with the permission of the House, I will have printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the Table:

    Statement showing the trade of the United Kingdom with Germany by values in the years 1920 and 1921:

    Branch of Trade.

    1920.*

    1921.*

    £

    £

    Imports from Germany

    30,252,000

    20,550,000

    Exports to Germany:—

    United Kingdom Produce and Manufacture

    21,707,000

    17,832,000

    Foreign and Colonial Produce and Manufacture.

    29,382,000

    22,897,000

    Total

    51,089,000

    40,729,000

    imports and exports of this country with Portugal for the years 1919, 1920, and 1921?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The answer involves a statistical table, which, with the permission of the House, I will have printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the table:
    NOTE.—The figures for 1921 are provisional and subject to slight amendment on final examination of the returns.
    * The figures for 1920 include, and those for 1921 exclude, trade with Memel, Danzig, the part of Poland formerly German, part of Slesvig (now Danish), and Luxemburg. The imports from Luxemburg into the United Kingdom during 1921 amounted in value to £629,365, the exports to Luxemburg of United Kingdom produce to £8,398, and exports of foreign and colonial merchandise to £1,341. Corresponding figures respecting trade with Memel, Danzig, etc. during 1921 are not available.
    Mr. KILEYasked the President of the Board of Trade the value and weight of imports from Germany for the month ending January, 1913, 1920, 1921, and 1922?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Particulars respecting our total imports from individual countries are available only for quarterly periods and not for separate months. The value of imports into the United Kingdom registered as consigned from "Germany" during the first quarter of each of the years 1913, 1920, and

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    1921 (and the last quarter of 1921) were as follows:

    £

    January-March, 1913

    …

    …

    19,220,284

    January-March, 1920

    …

    …

    4,123,021

    January-March, 1921

    …

    …

    8,023,745

    October-December, 1921

    …

    …

    4,965,367

    The weight of merchandise represented by these values cannot be stated. The foregoing particulars do not, however, relate to trade with the same areas. The figures for 1913 relate to pre-War Germany; those for 1920 to pre-War Germany, exclusive of Alsace-Lorraine; while those for 1921 are further exclusive of Memel, Danzig, the part of Poland formerly German, part of Slesvig (now Danish) and Luxemburg.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Are iron and steel products kept separate with regard to imports from Germany?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am not sure, but my impression is that they can be traced in the lists.

  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.

    BOARD OF TRADE.
    Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Power, Transport, and Economic Department of the Board will be amalgamated with the Industries and Manufactures Department in order to effect economies in the staff in accordance with the recommendation of the Geddes Committee?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The recommendations of the Committee are all under consideration, and I do not think it advisable to discuss them in detail at the present time.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Can these recommendations be carried out as soon as possible, so that their effects may be seen in the coming financial year?
    Mr. BALDWIN: Whatever recommendations can be given effect to without legislation will appear, I hope, in the forthcoming Estimates.
    Captain BENNasked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is his intention to issue any memorandum commenting on the findings of the Geddes Committee?
    Mr. BALDWIN: No, Sir.
    Captain BENN: In that case does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the findings of the Geddes Committee?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I think it is premature to say whether I agree or not.
    Captain BENN: If the right hon. Gentleman does not agree, will he follow the precedent inculcated by the Leader of the House, and issue a counter-statement?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I do not always like precedents.

    MINES DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Secretary for Mines whether he is making arrangements, in accordance with the recommendation of the Geddes Committee, to transfer the functions of his Department to those Departments originally responsible for them?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Bridgeman): No, Sir. The recommendation in question could not be put into effect without an Act of Parliament, and His Majesty's Government have not come to a decision upon the matter.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Can my right hon. Friend indicate when a decision will be arrived at?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No, Sir. I think that question should be addressed to the Leader of the House.
    Captain BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the delaying of this decision is costing the country?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No, Sir; I cannot.
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Mines whether it is his intention to issue any memorandum commenting on the findings of the Geddes Committee?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have already taken such steps as seemed to me fitting to place before H.M. Government my views on the recommendations of the Committee on Public Expenditure about the Mines Department; I have no present intention of taking any further steps myself in the direction of publication.
    Mr. HOGGE: Why is it that my right hon. Friend has sent his report to the Government, and has not published it in the same way as the Admiralty? I do not see the Leader of the House here, but I should like to ask, as a supple-

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    mentary question, where the House stands in these matters, and why we are to have one report issued direct to the public, while another Minister, like my right hon. Friend, sends his to the Government, and it depends upon them whether we are to get it or not?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I cannot answer for the Leader of the House. But this is a free country, and I took the step which seemed to me to be most suitable.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that the official Opposition are very anxious to get a brief against economy?

    MEMBERS' AND MINISTERS' SALARIES.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the sacrifices which are and will be required from all classes of the community, by reason of the necessity for drastic curtailment of expenditure in every direction, he will consider the desirability of temporarily reducing the salaries of Ministers and of Members of Parliament by, say, 10 per cent. as a practical example to the people of the country, and as evidence of the belief of Members of Parliament in the urgent need of reducing expenditure and of their willingness to share in the sacrifices they impose on others?
    Mr. ERSKINEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the general cut in salaries and wages, he can see his way to recommending a reduction of 25 per cent. in the salaries of Ministers and of Members of Parliament as evidence of the anxiety of the people's representatives to share with the general body of workers the burdens they at present have to bear.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): The proposals of the Government in reference to expenditure for the coming year will be laid before Parliament in the course of the next few days, and it is not advisable to make fractional statements as to the character of the new Estimates.

    REDUCTIONS.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his instruction of the 20th August, 1919, that Ministers who cannot economise must make room for those who can, he intends to insist on the reduction of expenditure
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    of £175,000,000 in the next financial year, which is the sum the Chancellor of the Exchequer requested the Geddes Committee to aim at?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Government will insist upon every feasible reduction of expenditure. The precise amount of that reduction is still under consideration.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to back up the Geddes Committee by insisting that this £175,000,000 shall be saved?
    The PRIME MINISTER: We are doing our best.

    MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is making arrangements to transfer the functions of his Department to the Board of Trade in accordance with the recommendation of the Geddes Committee?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. Neal): The proposed transfer, with the necessary incidental changes recommended, is receiving the consideration of the Government.
    Mr. THOMAS: Did the hon. Gentleman's Department cause the issue of any memorandum as to the incompetency of the Committee to make such a recommendation?
    Mr. MARSHALL STEVENS: Would not special legislation be necessary before a change is made?
    Mr. NEAL: Yes, it would involve legislation.

    NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD GAS COMPANY.
    Major BARNESasked the President of the Board of Trade what were the costs of production upon which the standard prices in the Newcastle and Gateshead Gas Company's Order of 1920 was based; whether any reduction has occurred in these costs up to the present date; and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. BALDWIN: The new standard prices were based upon detailed Schedules submitted by the company, showing the costs of, and incidental to,

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    the production and supply of gas in the last financial year prior to the War, and at the date of the inquiry. The additional cost was found to be 7.8 pence per therm. I am not aware what are the costs at the present time.

    COAL EXPORTS.
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDSasked the Secretary for Mines the amount of coal exported for the three months ending 31st December, 1913, and the amount exported for the three months ending 31st December, 1921?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The quantity of coal exported in each of the three months ended 31st December, 1913, and in the corresponding period of 1921 was as follows:

    Month.

    1913.

    1921.

    Tons.

    Tons.

    October

    …

    6,759,473

    3,405,972

    November

    …

    5,913,404

    3,593,864

    December

    …

    6,229,453

    4,309,162

    Total

    …

    18,882,330

    11,308,998

    INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to introduce a Bill for the better regulation of industrial insurance during the present Session, as a result of the findings of the Parmoor Committee; whether such a Bill has been prepared; and what is being done in the meantime for the protection of poor policy-holders?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Baird): I have been asked to reply. As the Home Secretary stated, in reply to a question last Monday, that it is hoped to introduce a Bill at an early date.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Why was this Bill not mentioned in the Gracious Speech from the Throne?

  IRELAND.

    ARMS AND AMMUNITION.
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Prime Minister whether the arms and ammunition taken from loyal subjects in Ireland
    1494
    during the past two years or thereabouts by order of His Majesty's Government will now be restored to them; and what steps they should take to get back the arms and ammunition so taken?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Colonel Sir Hamar Greenwood): This matter is under consideration, and I hope that it will shortly be possible to make an announcement in the Press.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these arms were taken from loyal subjects by His Majesty's Government for the purpose of safe custody, and does he know that the failure to restore them is causing very great inconvenience to those from whom they were taken?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a considerable number of the arms taken by the police have subsequently been stolen by the Sinn Feiners, and will these also be restored?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: This is a matter for the three Governments to consider. The Northern Government has already prohibited everybody having arms except under a licence.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Does the right hon. Gentleman not also include the Government of Mr. de Valera?
    Mr. DEVLIN: What about Page Croft?

    POISON GAS.
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister whether the Irish Provisional Government is bound by the decision of the Washington Conference with reference to poison gas?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill): The agreement will, when ratified, become legally binding on the Provisional Government. When the Irish Free State has been finally constituted, it will, of course, be represented at the Conferences in the same way as Canada, Australia, and other parts of the British Empire.

    MALICIOUS INJURIES (CLAIMS).
    Colonel NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a proclamation of the Provisional Government of the Irish Free State given on the 11th of this month by the Secretary to the Provisional Government

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    that all proceedings in connection with claims in respect of malicious and criminal injuries in the High Court or County Courts must be immediately stayed; and will he say whether, having regard to the fact that the settlement of these claims is a matter to be dealt with between the Government of this country and of the Free State, this proclamation has been issued after consultation with His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have seen the proclamation in question. The proposal to which it relates, namely, that proceedings in respect of criminal injuries suffered during the recent period of acute conflict should be stayed, and that claims in respect of such injuries should be dealt with under special arrangements, has been the subject of agreement with the Provisional Government. The effect of this agreement will be fully explained in connection with the Indemnity Bill to be introduced at an early date.

    DISTURBANCES.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Lord Privy Seal what is the number of attacks which have been made on British soldiers or on members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in Southern Ireland since the Provisional Agreement setting up the Irish Free State was signed?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The number of attacks on police since the signing of the Treaty Agreement (6th December, 1921) is 82, and upon military 34. The casualties sustained in these attacks have been 11 police and two military killed and 32 police and four military wounded.
    Sir F. HALL: Will those figures be brought before Mr. Collins before any further decisions are arrived at?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir, I do not think we ought to allow the figures to affect any further decisions, but I am taking steps to bring them before the Irish Provisional Government.

    MURDER OF LIEUTENANT GENOCHIO (CORK).
    Viscount CURZON (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information to show how it was that Lieutenant Genochio, of the Royal Engineers, came to be detained by
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    Republicans in the Cork Lunatic Asylum and was afterwards murdered by them; and whether the Irish Provisional Government is in any way responsible?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The only information yet available in regard to the death of this officer is that he left his quarters in Victoria Barracks, Cork, on the even ing of the 15th inst. in plain clothes, to go for a walk, and that nothing more was heard of him until 11 a.m. on the 17th inst., when he was shot dead on the public road near the Cork Lunatic Asylum, about three-quarters of a mile outside the borough boundary. No clue as to his murderers has yet been obtained, but investigations are being actively pursued.
    Since the above answer was prepared, I have received the following message from Dublin:
    "The Provisional Government are making exhaustive enquiry into the circumstances of this officer's death. They say that we may rest assured that justice will be done. They have not yet received the full facts of the case, but they expect them to-day."
    Viscount CURZON: Can His Majesty's Government express sympathy with the relatives, and horror that a British officer has been shot down in the street in this way?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have already telegraphed in appropriate terms to the father of this officer, expressing sympathy. I quite agree with the Noble Lord it is a detestable outrage.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information from the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland as to the people who are still being shot in Belfast?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No. I hope there is no attempt to try to settle this Irish difficulty by competitive crime.
    Mr. DEVLIN: I think that is a most uncalled for observation. A question has been put in regard to this murder in the South of Ireland, and the right hon. Gentleman has shown no resentment. Am I not entitled to put a question when my own constituents are being murdered in Belfast?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Notice should be given to me of any questions which hon. Members desire to put after the usual time for questions has expired.

    NATIONALITY LAW.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether the necessary legislation for the amendment of the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, as agreed at the Imperial Conference, will be introduced during the present Session?
    The LEADER of the HOUSE (Mr. Chamberlain): I can add nothing to the answer which I gave on Thursday last to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for South East St. Pancras.
    Sir W. DAVISON: While thanking the Prime Minister for the personal interest he has taken in the matter, would it not be possible to introduce this Bill into the House, having regard to the fact that our fellow-countrymen have been so long waiting for it, and also to the fact that our Colonial Ministers have approved of it, leaving the details to be settled by a Committee?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think this is pre-eminently a matter in which we should act with the Dominions, and I deprecate the zeal of my hon. and gallant Friend to anticipate the decision of the Dominion Governments.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Will the right hon. Gentleman look up this matter to see if it is not a fact that I received a pledge from the Government two years ago that negotiations would take place and were actually in progress?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I need look it up, because I know that negotiations have been going on for a long time. I think we must wait until we receive an answer from them.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Is two years too long?
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that seven years ago I obtained a similar pledge?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I had no responsibility for it seven years ago.

    HOUSE OF LORDS REFORM.
    Captain BENNasked the Prime Minister for what reason the Government has decided to introduce into the House of Lords their Resolutions for constitutional reform?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Because it is customary to originate a Measure for the reform of one of the Houses of Parliament in the House which it is proposed to reform.
    Captain BENN: Was that the course taken in the case of the Parliament Act, and are we to understand that in this case proposals respecting the powers of the House of Commons are first to be submitted for the approval of the House of Lords?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman evidently forgets what the Parliament Act was, and perhaps I had better explain it. There was nothing in it about, the reform of the House of Lords, except in the Preamble. The operative part of that Act had reference only to the relations between the two Houses.
    Captain BENN: Are we to understand that these proposals do not affect the powers of the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: They do not affect the powers of the House of Commons, but the relations between the two Houses, and the reform is to be confined exclusively to the House of Lords.
    Mr. HOGGE: Can the right, hon. Gentleman give the House any precedent for introducing legislation by way of Resolutions in the House of Lords relating to the relationship of the two Houses?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It does not merely relate to the relationship of the two Houses. It is a proposal for the reform of the House of Lords, and we shall first proceed in the Chamber which is to be reformed.
    Captain BENN: Is the question of the Lords Veto to be submitted to the House of Lords?
    Mr. W. THORNE: Have the Lords to dig their own grave?
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is becoming a Debate.

  RUSSIA.

    TRADE AGREEMENT (BREACHES).
    Mr. RAPERasked the Prime Minister if he will now give instructions for the Notes exchanged between His

    1499
    Majesty s Government and the Russian Soviet Government, since 21st September last, regarding the breaches of the terms of the Trade Agreement by the Russian Soviet Government, to be published; and if no reply has yet been received by His Majesty's Government to their Note of the 2nd November last?
    The PRIME MINISTER: After careful consideration, in view of the opportunity which will be afforded at the Genoa Conference of reaching an understanding on this matter, His Majesty's Government do not feel that any useful purpose would be served by publishing at this late date the two Notes exchanged between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government since 21st September. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. RAPER: Is it the intention of the Government to revert to the old and pernicious system of secret diplomacy? If not, why not publish the Notes?
    The PRIME MINISTER: On the contrary, the Government is attacked for being too open. There is a demand that we should revert to the old diplomacy.

    FAMINE RELIEF.
    Mr. L. MALONEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the urgent need for assistance to the famine areas in Eastern Europe, His Majesty's Government will place any obstacle in the way of the immediate raising of a loan in this country by the Soviet Government if suitable guarantees are given in return?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Government permission is not required for the raising of loans by foreign countries in the London market, and it is not the practice of His Majesty's Government to interfere in such matters, but it will be recognised by anyone conversant with the facts that there is no chance of the Russian Government being able to raise any loan in foreign countries until they have given the assurances indicated in the Cannes resolutions.
    Mr. RAPER: Does the right hon. Gentleman know of any single case in which the guarantees given by the Soviet Government to this country have been honoured?
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if
    1500
    he is in a position to give reliable facts regarding the reported famine in Russia; how many people are affected in the stricken area; how many have died from starvation; and whether any of the food and money contributed by the Allied natiore has been diverted and used to feed the Bolshevist Army, and to the upkeep of the Soviet Government?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME (Secretary, Department of Overseas Trade): I am unable to give any reliable figures in regard to the number of people affected by the famine in Russia or of those who have died of starvation. There can be no doubt, however, that the situation in some parts of the famine area is one of extreme gravity and that a population of many millions is affected. It is hoped that Sir Benjamin Robertson, who has just returned from a tour in the famine areas on behalf of the Russian Famine Relief Fund, will be able to give valuable information in his report on the extent of the disaster. As regards the last part of the question, the answer is in the negative so far as contributions from British sources are concerned, and this also applies, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, to contributions from other countries.
    Lord R. CECIL: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Sir Benjamin Robertson reports that 33,000,000 people are affected and 19,000,000 are in danger of starvation, and probably a large proportion of them, whatever is done, must die?
    Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: Would it not be possible for His Majesty's Government to suggest to the Soviet Government the saving of the enormous expense in maintaining an army of nearly 2,000,000 men, by disbanding the army, so that they might devote the money to the suffering people of the country?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I should prefer to await the publication of Sir Benjamin Robertson's Report before dealing with isolated questions. I saw Sir Benjamin Robertson on the day after he arrived. While there is no doubt as to the very grave dimensions of the famine, and the fact that succour appears to be reaching the right quarters, it is only fair to say that Sir Benjamin Robertson informed me that, in his opinion, the inadequate facilities of the

    1501
    Russian transport was such that the transport system was inadequate to deal with any more imports of feeding stuffs than had already been arranged up to the beginning of April.

    MRS. S. HARDING.
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how soon he will publish the correspondence which has passed between His Majesty's Government and the Russian Soviet Government on the subject of Mrs. Stan Harding's wrongful imprisonment in Moscow?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Harmsworth): A White Paper containing the full correspondence exchanged between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government regarding Mrs. Stan Harding's imprisonment is now in course of preparation, and I hope to be able to lay it on the Table of the House very shortly.

    GREECE.
    Mr. L. MALONEasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government has had before it proposals to permit Greece to obtain credits under the Trade Facilities Act with a British guarantee; and whether, in view of the hostilities between Greece and Turkey and the urgent necessity of concluding peace with the Turkish people and not estranging Moslem sentiment, he will assure the House that no further financial assistance will be given to the Greeks until peaceful relations are established between Greece and Turkey?
    The PRIME MINISTER: In answer to the first part of the question, I understand that the application of the Greek Government is before the Advisory Committee under the Trade Facilities Act. I cannot anticipate the decision of the Committee upon the application. In answer to the second part of the question, there is no intention on the part of His Majesty's Government to make a loan to the Greek Government.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: What has the Trade Facilities Act to do with a loan?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Applications must be made to the Trade Facilities Committee.
    Mr. MALONE: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the best way of bringing about peace with Turkey is to put a stop to financial assistance to the Greek Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: We do not propose to offer any financial assistance to Greece.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Have we not guaranteed any loans to Greece under the Trade Facilities Act?
    The PRIME MINISTER: We do not propose any Government guarantee except to the extent that the Trade Facilities Act involves it. We have definitely pledged ourselves in the House of Commons not to interfere with the action of the Committee under that Act.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: That is direct assistance to the Greek Government.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Is it not a condition with regard to the Geek loan that the greater part of the money received shall be spent in this country—
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On munitions.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: My hon. Friend, the latest Turcophile addition to the Radical party, suggests munitions, but is it not the fact that munitions have been supplied by Allied Powers to the Kemalists, in order to make war on Greece in Asia Minor, thus subjecting the Christians in the Near East once more to butchery by the Turks?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Trade Facilities Act was passed with a view to promoting British trade, and it was solely to meet the object of the Act that it was possible to consider the application at all, as it might lead to orders being placed in this country. With regard to the latter part of the question, I can only say that such a statement has undoubtedly appeared.
    Mr. ESMOND HARMSWORTHasked the Prime Minister whether, before sanctioning the loans the Greek Government propose levying in this country, proper guarantees have been accepted with regard to the loan of £15,000,000 made by His Majesty's Government to the Greek Government?
    Mr. YOUNG: I am not aware of any loan of £15,000,000 made by His Majesty's Government to the Greek Government, and accordingly I fear that I do not understand to What the question refers.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the reply to a question at the end of 1920, wherein I was told that the British Government have made a loan of £15,000,000 to the Greek Government?
    Mr. YOUNG: If the hon. Gentleman will give me a reference, I will look it up. As a matter of fact no loan of £15,000,000 has been granted to Greece.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand from that reply that the Greek Government do not owe us any money?

    PEACE TREATIES (GERMAN REPARATION).
    Mr. BETTERTONasked the Prime Minister the reasons why the sum of 2,576,000,000 gold marks, representing in cash and in kind the amount of German reparation still undistributed, has not yet been divided amongst the Powers entitled; when it is proposed that distribution shall take place; and what is the amount to which Great Britain is entitled?
    Mr. YOUNG: With the exception of a small amount of cash since distributed, the amount in question consisted simply of book credits to Germany for such items as property ceded to Poland, namely, for which payment has not yet been received by the Reparation Commission, and cannot yet in most cases be received. The account will eventually be cleared, when Inter-Allied agreement has been reached as to the method in which these items are to be dealt with.

    GENOA CONFERENCE.
    Mr. L. MALONEasked the Prime Minister the date of the Genoa Conference; whether the question of Turkey will be discussed; whether representatives of the Turkish Government will be invited to attend; and whether, as promised to Russia, Constantinople will be placed under Russian jurisdiction?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The date of meeting provisionally fixed at Cannes has not so far been changed, action depending in the main upon the formation of an Italian Government. The answers to the last three parts of the question are in the negative.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Prime Minister what were the conditions upon which the Allied Conference decided to ask Russia to take part in the Genoa discussions; and whether these conditions have been accepted by the Soviet Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the resolution of the Supreme Council at Cannes, which defined the conditions on which States were invited to the Conference at Genoa. In reply to the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) on the 13th February.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Having regard to the statement made by the Secretary of State for India in the recent Debate, that the present unrest in India was largely caused by Soviet propaganda, will the right hon. Gentleman state what reliance can be placed on any assurances given by the Soviet Government?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise here.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Lord Privy Seal whether the British representatives to the Genoa Conference have yet been chosen and, if so, what are their names; whether any explanation of the Government's proposed line of policy at Genoa will be made to Parliament; if so, when this will be; and whether this House will be given any opportunity of expressing its opinion on the problems involved at Genoa?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Further explanations of the Government policy can be sought, if desired, on the Estimates, or on the Appropriation Bill.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that an opportunity for discussing the Government's policy at Washington was given to the House, with very beneficial

    1505
    results, and why is that course not being followed by him in regard to this equally important Conference?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have told the hon. and gallant Member that if discussion is desired, it can be taken on the Estimates or on the Appropriation Bill.
    Mr. MALONE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when and where the preliminary conference of experts will take place, and who are those experts?

  TRANSPORT.

    LONDON SUBURBAN RAILWAYS (ELECTRIFICATION).
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to the statements of the chairman of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway that the company has full plans for a suburban scheme of electrification; that it is ready to set to work at once, but is prevented by the paralysing effect of the Railways Act, which prevents any large schemes of electrification being executed without the consent of four other railway companies; and whether, in the interest of railway enterprise and the urgent need for providing employment, he will announce the early repeal of The Railways Act, 1921?
    Mr. NEAL: I have been asked to reply to this question. My attention has been called to the statements made at the meeting in question, and I may point out that other reasons were given besides that mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Has pot the chairman of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company stated that he was ready to go on with the work, but was held up by some Government Committee? Is the right hon. Gentleman not in a position to dispense with this Government Committee, and let the Brighton Company get on with the work?
    Mr. NEAL: The chairman of the company stated exactly the opposite.

    ELECTRIC TRAMS, EDINBURGH.
    Major GLYNasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Trans-
    1506
    port whether, if application be made by the City of Edinburgh Council for leave to set up central standards for overhead trolley electric trams throughout the length of Princes Street and other parts of that city, he will see that no leave be granted until the opinion of the residents of Edinburgh has been ascertained and careful inquiry made on the spot into the whole matter?
    Mr. NEAL: A scheme for equipping the Edinburgh tramways for electrical traction, which involves the erection of central standards in Princes Street, has been submitted for approval. Any objections communicated to the Ministry by residents of Edingburgh will be carefully considered before a decision is given, and if after such consideration it seems necessary, an inquiry will be held.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Is the Edinburgh Town Council an elected representative body, or is it a hotly of irresponsible dietators?

    RAILWAYS (WAGES AND FARES).
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport what have been the aggregate reductions of wages on the various railway systems of the United Kingdom during the past nine months; and what reductions the said companies have made to the public in the matter of passenger fares and the charges for the carriage of goods?
    Mr. NEAL: I am not in a position to supply the information asked for in the first part of the question. No general reductions have been made in passenger fares or goods rates, but the railway companies have, during the past nine months, re-introduced a number of cheap travelling facilities. As from the 1st of November, 1921, reductions were effected in the rates on iron ore, ironstone and limestone for blast furnaces and steel works. From the 1st of January last the railway companies in England and Wales also reduced the rates on coal, coke and patent fuel, on lime in Class B for iron and steel making purposes, limestone for chemical works, and iron and steel in Class B. I understand that the Scottish companies have just reduced their rates on lime and on coal, coke and patent fuel for the iron and steel industry, and on iron and steel in Class B.
    Mr. DOYLE: When will the hon. Gentleman be in a position to answer the first part of the question?
    Mr. NEAL: I do not think I shall be able to answer that. It would involve a very detailed inquiry into the accounts of each railway company, which I am not in a position to enforce.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a statement appeared in the Press recently that first-class fares are to be reduced? Has he seen that statement?
    Mr. NEAL: I have seen a statement that one company intended to do that. I have no further information on the subject.
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if his attention has been called to the fact that the men employed on the Underground and electric railways of London have, during the past seven months, submitted to three reductions in wages aggregating 13s. per week per man; that the managers of such companies were allowed to increase fares by over 30 per cent. on account of such advanced wages; and whether, since an obligation rests on them to reduce their fares to the public pro rata to the men's reductions, and the Minister of Transport, in conjunction with the Railway Commissioners, sanctioned increased fares for the reasons stated, he will call the attention of the directors and managers to the matter in order to have it revised, and to give the public the advantage or, failing that, will he raise wages to the level of last spring?
    Mr. NEAL: The London Electric Railways (Fares, etc.) Act, 1920, provides for certain increases in fares in order that the charging powers of the companies may provide for working expenses, efficiently maintaining and renewing the undertakings, and a reasonable return on capital. The hon. Member will thus see that factors other than wages have to be taken into account in determining the fares to be charged, and that the increased fares were not sanctioned solely on account of advances in wages. The financial position of the companies has been under consideration by the Minister from time to time, and I have already been furnished with copies of the annual
    1508
    accounts for 1921 in order that the position which arises under Section 6 of the Act may be again considered.
    Captain MARTIN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that workmen's tickets have increased nearly 300 per cent. and that wages are now corning down to nearly pre-War?
    Mr. NEAL: I am aware that there have been increases in workmen's tickets. They were strictly limited in amount, and I have no reason to think they are unreasonable.

    RAILWAY RATES TRIBUNAL.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport of how many members the Railway Rates Tribunal consists; how many cases they have yet considered; whether they are being paid; if so, how much and since what date; and whether their pay, if any, falls upon the railway companies or upon the public?
    Mr. NEAL: The three permanent members of the Railway Rates Tribunal were duly appointed, in accordance with the provisions of the Railways Act of last Session, at the beginning of November last and are receiving salaries at the following rates:

    The President

    …

    …

    £5,000 per annum

    One member

    …

    …

    £3,000 ""

    One member

    …

    …

    £2,000 ""

    The salaries and other expenses of the Tribunal are recoverable from the Amalgamated Railway Companies. The Railways Act requires the Tribunal to deal with such matters as the conditions of carriage and the fixing of standard charges, upon the submission of the railway companies, which are to be made by prescribed dates. Apart from these matters and from the functions to be exercised after the appointed day for the introduction of standard charges, it is open to the railway companies and traders to make applications to the Tribunal for a modification of charges under the transitory provisions of the Act, but I understand that the Tribunal has not yet been called upon to hear any such application. I may remind the hon. Member that all three members of the Tribunal are also members of the Rates Advisory Committee upon which falls

    1509
    the statutory task of settling the classification of merchandise for the purposes of Part III of the Railways Act, and on this work they are at present engaged. No duplication of salary is being made.
    Lieut.-Cotonel GUINNESS: Is their time fully occupied?
    Mr. NEAL: I believe they are fully occupied with the work for which they are engaged.
    Sir W. PEARCE: Can individual traders make application for reduced rates, or are they supposed to wait until trade associations act on their behalf?
    Mr. NEAL: There is nothing to hinder individual traders from making application.
    Mr. LAMBERT: If these officials at £10,000 a year are new officials, what has become of the Railway and Canal Commissioners, who were also in existence before the Act and were paid large salaries?
    Mr. NEAL: The Rates Tribunal is discharging new duties of the greatest possible value to the traders of the country and are being paid by the railway companies.
    Mr. LAMBERT: What duties do the Railway and Canal Commissioners discharge?
    Mr. NEAL: Many of their old duties remain.

    LONDON STREET TRAFFIC.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he has received representations from the London County Council as to the danger of other traffic passing tramcars which have stopped for the purpose of landing or embarking passengers at regular stopping-places fixed by the police for these purposes; whether he has any power to make regulations to deal with this matter; and, if not, will he consider whether such powers should be obtained in view of the great danger of accidents in London owing to the increase of fast motor traffic on all tramway routes?
    Mr. NEAL: Representations to the effect stated have been received, and it has been suggested that a Regulation should be made requiring vehicles passing on the near side of a stationary tram-
    1510
    car to slow down whilst so doing. It is doubtful whether the Ministry of Transport has power to make such a Regulation, and in any case it seems undesirable to do so. It would be difficult to enforce it effectively in view of the large number of tramcar stopping places, and in the opinion of the police authorities, whom I have consulted, would probably lead to more accidents than would be prevented.
    Sir F. HALL: Are any steps being taken to do away with difficulties owing to the general congestion of the streets in London?
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Seeing that this suggested rule is being carried out throughout the whole of the British Empire and the United States, should it be difficult to enforce in London?
    Mr. NEAL: The police have a very clear view that it would lead to more accidents than it would prevent, and, there being very great doubt whether there is any legal authority in the Ministry to interfere, I do not feel it incumbent upon me to take any action.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the hon. Gentleman remember that he sat on a Select Committee with regard to this case of the general conditions of London traffic? Does he propose to take any steps to carry out the suggestions of the Report of that Committee?
    Viscount CURZON: Is it not a fact that it would only add to the prevailing congestion of traffic throughout London?
    Mr. NEAL: It would probably lead to further congestion. As to the Select Committee presided over by the late Mr. Kennedy Jones, it has not been found possible to bring its recommendations into operation. They would need legislation, and I think the whole question of dealing with London traffic is inextricably mixed up with questions of local government in London.
    Sir F. HALL—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman should put down any further questions.

    RAILWAY PASSENGER RATES.
    Sir R. NEWMANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport how the railway rates for

    1511
    persons travelling in England compares with the rates charged to passengers in France, Germany, and the United States of America?
    Mr. NEAL: I have no recent data which would enable me to make a direct comparison between the passenger fares in this country and the countries named in the question. From such information as is at present available to me, it would, however, appear that when ordinary passenger fares in Great Britain were increased in the summer of 1920 to about 75 per cent. above pre-War level, the fares prevailing in France were about the same time from 70 per cent. to 80 per cent. and in the United States about 80 per cent. above pre-War level. In Germany the increase is, I understand, from 850 per cent. to 1,100 per cent. over pre-War level.

    NAVAL TREATY, WASHINGTON.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Prime Minister when the Naval Treaty, signed by the British Representatives at Washington, will be published in this country?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As soon as a certified oopy of the Treaty is received in this country, steps will be taken to have it laid as a White Paper.

    EGYPT (GOVERNMENT POLICY).
    Major BARNESasked the Prime Minister if a statement of the Government's policy in regard to Egypt is to be made at an early date; if so, when; and whether it will be preceded by the publication of the negotiations between the Government and its advisers in Egypt?
    Mr. LUNNasked the Prime Minister, if he is now in a position to name a date when the House could discuss the present and future government of Egypt?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, Sir. We propose to announce to Parliament to-morrow week the proposals with regard to Egypt for which we shall seek Parliamentary approval. A Parliamentary Paper will be laid that afternoon.
    Major BARNES: Is it part of the Government policy to releaae Zaghloul Pasha?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot make any statement until Lord Allenby has returned to Egypt.
    Lord R. CECIL: Will the White Paper include the correspondence or only the actual agreement? Is it not very desirable that the House should be in possession of all the correspondence before the Debate takes place?
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a definite undertaking that no suggestion will be made to the Egyptian native authorities by Lord Allenby until this House has had an opportunity of considering the policy?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Any suggestions made to the Egyptian authorities will be made definitely on the understanding that they will have to be ratified by this House. That will be made quite clear.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Then it will not be a signed agreement put before the House to leave it or take it?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is a proposal which we intend to recommend to this country. In reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil), our intention was to give only the actual proposal in the White Paper. I am not sure that it is desiyable to publish the whole of the correspondence. I should like to ask Lord Allen y's views about that.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Is it proposed to take the Debate next week, or will it be postponed until some future occasion?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under the present arrangements, the current week is allotted to finance, and the first business after that must be to get through the Irish Bill. If desired, I will give a day as soon as possible after we have disposed of that Bill.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I wanted my right hon. Friend to say that we should not have a day until we had had at least two or three days to read the proposals.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think I shall be able to meet my hon. Friend's desire that he shall have time enough for consideration before discussion.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    TERRITORIES (PRESERVATION).
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Lord President of the Council whether Article X of the Covenant of the League of Nations is still in force; and whether the obligation which lies upon signatories to preserve the territories of one another against external aggression operates in view of threatened, probable, or possible aggression, or only when war-like operations have actually been commenced?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Herbert Fisher): I have been asked to answer this question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The question of the interpretation of the Article was considered by the First Committee of the Second Assembly in connection with the Canadian proposal for its suppression. I would refer the hon. Baronet to the Committee's report and the relative resolution of the Assembly contained in the special supplement of the League's official journal for October, 1921, copies of which will be found in the Library of the House.
    Sir J. D. REES: In view of the comprehensive and compromising character of Article X., is it not desirable that the position of the British Government in respect of it should be stated, and in answer to this question?
    Mr. FISHER: I am advised that that is not expedient.
    Sir J. D. REES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he defends anything that is not expedient?
    Mr. FISHER: I was not defending that which was inexpedient.

    SUBSCRIPTIONS.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Lord President of the Council whether 18 of the States belonging to the League of Nations have not paid their subscriptions, arrears in some cases dating from 1920; whether two of such nations, namely, Salvador and Argentina, have at any time paid any subscriptions; and whether England has advanced, lent, or paid for the nations in arrears their subscriptions or any portions thereof?
    Mr. FISHER: I have been asked to answer this question. I am informed
    1514
    that the position at the end of 1921 was that a few States had not paid their contributions in full for July-December, 1920. As regards 1921, contributions in full were still awaited from 21 States. The answer to the second and last parts of the question is in the negative.
    Sir J. D. REES: Is it quite clear that the British taxpayer will not be asked to pay for the impecunious friends made for him? If these 21 States are in default, who is paying the not inconsiderable expenses of the League of Nations? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me?
    Mr. FISHER: The British taxpayer will not pay more than his share.

    ESTIMATES COUNCIL.
    Captain BENNasked the Prime Minister when it is his intention to set up the Select Committee to consider the question of control of finance by the House of Commons; what will be the terms of reference to the Committee; and whether any time limit will be set to their deliberations?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The appointment of a Select Committee of this character was suggested to the House by me recently. I have not carried the matter any further up to tlw present.
    Captain BENN: What steps does the right hon. Gentleman intend to take to restore the control of this House over finance? Will he set up the Estimates Committee, or some new arrangement, or what will be done?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon and gallant Friend appears to be unaware of what has been passing in the House. I have already stated that I shall set up the Estimates Committee at once. The notice is not actually on the Paper, but we have been working for that for some days past. As regards the suggestion as to a different kind of Select Committee which I made to the House, the hon. and gallant Gentleman appears to be equally unaware that his Leader immediately stated that it was a mere measure of obstruction.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion amount to this, that he is going to set up again a powerless and ineffective Committee which he himself has condemned?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member is now giving his own opinions.

    FRANCHISE (WOMEN).
    Mr. G. BARKERasked the Lord Privy Seal if the Government will bring in a Bill this Session to enable women to vote at the same age and under the same qualifications as men?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister on Monday last to similar questions.

    TANGIER.
    Major C. LOWTHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if a date has yet been fixed for the meeting of the Spanish, French, and British delegates in London to discuss the status of Tangier?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer is in the negative.

    PUTUMAYO.
    Sir. W. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any information confirming the report that the notorious firm of Julio Cæsar Arana had been re-established on the Putumayo; and whether any British subjects are employed by the firm?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: In June last, the acting British Consul at Iquitos reported that Mr. Arana had been in Lima for the previous six months, and that, in view of the absence of demand for rubber, the operations of his firm had not been resumed. One British subject was at that time employed in the district.
    Sir J. D. REES: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is not reason to believe that misdeeds were imputed to this firm with a sinister object by Casement and his friends? In any case, can the hon. Gentleman say what is the jurisdiction or interest of the British Government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I must have notice of that question.

    URUGUAY (BRITISH INVEST-MENTS).
    Mr. BETTERTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if
    1516
    his attention has been called to the action of the municipality of Montevideo in forcibly taking and disbursing the funds of a British-owned tramway system in Montevideo; if any protest has been made by the British Government against this arbitrary appropriation; and what is the loss, direct and indirect, in which it involves the British holders of Uruguayan securities owing to the consequent depreciation of Uruguayan credit in the market of Europe?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer to the two first parts of the question is in the affirmative. Any general weakening of Uruguayan credit in Europe would cause serious losses to British investors, but I trust that the matters now at issue may be satisfactorily settled and the contingency to which the hon. Member refers avoided.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Can the hon. Gentleman say what steps the Foreign Office is taking to protect British interests there?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: We are taking every step that can be taken.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Colonel BURNasked the Minister of Agriculture the reason why the application of Mr. Hartley-Russell for permission to test his product Moramor, at his own expense, as a cure for foot-and-mouth disease, has been refused.
    Colonel MILDMAYasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease, he will take into consideration, as an alternative to the policy of slaughter, the methods suggested by Lieut. Hartley Russell, which methods, justifiable by their pre-War efficacy in Germany, were submitted to the Ministry of Agriculture on the 25th November, 1920?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): For the reasons which I gave in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Penrith and Cocker-mouth on the 16th, the Ministry cannot undertake the examination and testing of alleged cures for foot-and-mouth disease in this country, but I am hoping to be able to arrange for an international inquiry into the whole subject to be held in the near future.
    Colonel BURN: Would it not be wise to give this system a fair trial, because it has been so eminently successful abroad?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I have had a great many alleged cures sent to me; but at the present moment, when the whole of my staff is engaged in fighting the disease, I cannot possibly detach some of them to test various cures.
    Mr. W. NICHOLSONasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the fact that a cattle dealer recently sent 400 Irish cattle, which he had bought at Bristol, to Chichester, with the intention of offering them for sale at Chichester Market on Wednesday, 8th February, but owing to the regulations issued by the Ministry of Agriculture he was prohibited from bringing them into the market, and that in spite of the regulations he was allowed to sell 80 of these cattle to another dealer who sent them by road from Chichester to Sheet, in Hampshire, where they spent the night, and then to Colemore; whether he can state who gave permission to the dealer to sell them, who allowed them to be driven on the roads, and who allowed the cattle to be moved from Sussex to Hampshire; and whether the authorities of Hampshire were informed of the Irish cattle being moved into the county?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The removal of the cattle in question was quite regular, as the necessary licence under the Foot and Mouth Disease Orders was obtained from the local authorities concerned.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Minister of Agriculture how many cattle have been destroyed in connection with the present outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease; and whether he will make inquiries as to the efficacy of the methods of isolation without destruction adopted in connection with this disease in France?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The slaughter of 17,037 cattle has been authorised up to and including Sunday, the 19th instant. With regard to the latter part of the question, I am advised that the methods of isolation adopted in France have been quite ineffective as a policy for the eradication of the disease.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Is there any limit to the size of an outbreak which the Ministry considers suitable to be
    1518
    dealt with by this very costly method of destruction?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Yes. It all depends whether we regard the outbreak as epidemic or not. In this case we do not, and we think we have the matter well in hand.

    RABIES
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Minister of Agriculture whether rabies has been entirely stamped out in this country; and whether all the muzzling orders and other exceptional restrictions as regards dogs in this country have now been withdrawn?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Yes, Sir, all remaining muzzling and movement restrictions imposed on account of rabies (namely, those in force in Hampshire and Wiltshire) were finally removed on the 6th February, no case of rabies having occurred in those areas, nor in any other part of Great Britain, for eight months. The Ministry has now every reason to believe that rabies has been entirely eradicated after a visitation of 3½ years, and I hope we may have no further outbreak.

    ROSYTH DOCKYARD.
    Mr. J. WALLACE(by Private Notice) asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that a notice has just been posted intimating that only established men and some ex-soldiers are to be retained at Rosyth Naval Base; whether he is aware of the serious position which will immediately arise in consequence, and why this notice has been posted in view of the fact that only a few days ago it was officially stated that the question was still under consideration?
    The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Commander Eyres - Monsell): I have ascertained that the following notice has been issued by the Admiral Superintendent at Rosyth:
    "I wish to impress upon all concerned the unfortunate fact that when the present reductions have taken effect there will practically only be employment in this Dockyard for the established men and a number of disabled ex-Service men. It is therefore advisable for all other men to look for jobs elsewhere, and I strongly urge any hired man, who can obtain work outside the dockyards, to accept it forthwith."
    This action taken by the Admiral Superintendent to place the situation before the

    1519
    men in their own interests does not preclude consideration being given by the Admiralty to the possibility of making arrangements to modify the situation as depicted; but I am not in a position to give any positive assurances in this matter.
    Mr. WALLACE: Am I to understand that it is the settled policy of the Admiralty to employ only established men and ex-service men at Rosyth?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: My hon. Friend will understand that this is a question of great complexity. You cannot apply the necessary measures of economy without inflicting hardships, but we are doing and will continue to do everything in our power to alleviate the blow that will fall on many people.
    Mr. WALLACE: Knowing how serious is the position, I will raise the whole question on the rising of the House to-night.

    TELEPHONE SERVICE.
    Ordered,
    "That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee on the Telephone Service in the First Session of 1921 he referred to the Select Committee on the Telephone Service."—[Colonel Gibbs.]

>BILLS PRESENTED.
  HOUSE OF COMMONS AND MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (QUALIFICATION OF CLERGYMEN) BILL,
  "to remove the disqualification of clerks in holy orders and other ministers of religion as Members of the House of Commons and as municipal councillors," presented by Mr. FREDERICK GREEN; supported by Lieut.-Colonel Burgoyne, Captain Moreing, Mr. Reginald Nicholson, Mr. Spoor, and Colonel Sir Charles Yate; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 7th April, and to be printed. [Bill 34.]

  PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION BILL,
  "to make provision for the proportional representation of the electors of the House of Commons; and for other purposes connected therewith," presented by Major MORRISON-BELL; supported by Sir Ryland Adkins, Sir Frederick Banbury, Lord Robert Cecil, Mr. Lane-Fox, Sir
  1520
  Donald Maclean, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, and Mr. Aneurin Williams; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 12th May, and to be printed. [Bill 35.]

  GOVERNMENT OF THE SOU DAN LOAN (AMENDMENT) BILL,
  "to amend the Government of the Soudan Loan Act, 1919," presented by Mr. HILTON YOUNG; supported by Sir Robert Horne and Mr. Churchill; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 36.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Ordered,
  "That the Proceedings on the Motion relative to Clones Inquiry be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPART MENTS SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1921–22.
  CLASS III.

    ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,474,370, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including certain extra-statutory pensions."
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Sir Hamar Greenwood): I regret the need of this Supplementary Estimate, but there are certain financial consolations. In the first place, the sum which I am submitting for consideration is less by many millions than it would have been if we had failed to secure the Truce in July of last year and failed to conclude the Treaty of Peace on 6th December of the same year. In the second place, I hope, sincerely, that this Supplementary Estimate represents, with all its sub-heads, except pensions and gratuities, the final charge upon the taxpayers of Great Britain for the policing of Ireland, at any rate, for the policing of Southern Ireland. The original Estimates to which this Vote is supplementary were prepared in December, 1920, and the various increases are due to two main causes, first, the increase in personnel and transport of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including the Special Constabulary in the North of Ireland during the first six months of 1921, and, in the second place, terminal charges arising from the disbandment, consequent on the signing of the Treaty, of the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and of the temporary constables. This means that more than 6,000 officers and men recruited in Great Britain have been disbanded since the Treaty was signed and have left Ireland.
    The Chief of Police already, on behalf of the Government, has expressed his appreciation of the invaluable work
    1560
    of these men. Most of them served in the Great War, many of them with distinction, and I take this opportunity of again expressing the appreciation of the Government of their courageous services in Ireland. When the Treaty was signed there were about 16,000 police of all ranks, excluding the Special Constabulary in the North of Ireland, in the Royal Irish Constabulary. The truce was agreed to in July, 1921, and from that date the Regular Police have passed and are passing through a most critical and trying period, during which 12 of the force have been murdered and 27 wounded. The Committee will be glad to hear that the discipline of the force has been splendidly maintained throughout this period. The regular Royal Irish Constabulary now in Ireland is almost entirely Irish and predominantly Catholic. There are at present 233 officers and 5,764 other ranks in Southern Ireland, and 50 officers and 2,059 other ranks in Northern Ireland. Since the 22nd November, 1921, control of the Royal Irish Constabulary in Northern Ireland has passed to the Northern Government. Since that date the Chief Secretary has not been responsible for the police or the maintenance of order in that part of Ireland.
    To come to the subheads of the Supplementary Estimate I am asking the Committee to vote under Subhead B an additional sum of £371,443 for the pay of police. In order that the Committee may know exactly what this large sum is for I shall give details. £225,000 is for the ordinary pay and disbandment pay of the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary and of all temporary constables. These men were recruited under non-pensionable contracts. This Vote provides the money necessary for the complete discharge of the Government's liabilities under these contracts. I have received a few letters in reference to the amounts given to individuals in these forces. I can assure the Committee that every case is carefully considered by the Chief of Police and—
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: This refers to Auxiliaries, whereas we all imagine that Class A was the Special Constabulary for Northern Ireland. There is some confusion.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is perfectly clear. The Vote is for the pay of the

    1561
    police in Ireland except for the pay of the Special Constables in Northern Ireland, who, since 22nd November last year, have been under the control of the Northern Government. Their pay is, therefore, no longer chargeable to these Votes. I am dealing at the moment with the pay of the disbanded Auxiliary Police. I hope that I have made that clear.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY:
    You said Class A.
    4.0 P.M.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I did not mention Class A. I said Subhead B. The Special Constabulary (Class A) are under Subhead B of this Vote. I was not on that point at the moment. I was dealing with the pay of the disbandment liabilities in respect of the Auxiliary Force and the temporary forces. I was saying that I had received a few letters, only a very few, I am glad to say, complaining about the individual payments made to members of the Auxiliary Force. If it comes to the knowledge of any Member that there is a complaint on the part of any of these gallant constables, the Chief of the Police and myself personally will be glad to investigate it. In reference to the Auxiliaries, the position is this, apart from the original contract of 12 months which the cadet had on joining the Division, no cadet has received, or will receive, less than £70, while a great number, according as their oontracts may vary, will receive in addition amounts ranging from £1 to £250. The complaints from individuals regarding the sums received on dispersal are not complaints against the Government, but complaints, rather, that some of their comrades, owing to the accident of the date when they enlisted, are receiving more than they themselves. In my opinion the terms of disbandment of the Auxiliary Division are satisfactory and generous, and this view was endorsed by the representative body of the Force itself, which, through its president and delegates, signified its acceptance of the terms of disbandment in an agreement signed on 18th January, 1922. In addition to the charge of £225,000 I have referred to, £66,447 represents an increased charge for the pay of the Special Constabulary of Northern Ireland for the period ended 22nd November, 1921. That was the point
    1562
    referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). £80,000 is the sum asked for to pay in this period members of the purely Irish Royal Irish Constabulary. This is ordinary pay, which in the normal way would not be payable until 1st April next, the first day of the financial year, 1922–23. I want it before the close of this financial year, so that the Force may be paid up to date on disbandment, and so that, as far as possible, the police accounts may be closed by the end of the current financial year. The more expeditious one can make the disbandment, the greater the saving in money.
    Subhead C amounts to a sum of £23,000 over which I have really no control, because the Committee on the Police Service, of 1920, generally known as the Desborough Committee, recommended that policemen should be exempt from Income Tax on their rent allowance, and, following the Home Office decision, the Irish Government, in order to give them this concession, decided to refund to policemen who had paid Income Tax. This £23,000 represents, therefore, money that is due to these constables in this manner. Owing to the fact that the Desborough Report has been adopted, they must clearly be recouped the Income Tax they have already paid. If it were not for that decision, there would be no Supplementary Estimate under this head.
    Tinder Subhead D, for subsistence allowances, the original sum of £200,000 was based on the average expenditure at the date, December, 1920, when the original Estimates were in preparation. The records of actual expenditure show a higher average rate. This is attributable to the increase of police activity and personnel during the period tinder review, necessitating the employment of men on duties involving abnormal periods of absence from their stations, the confinement of men in fortified barracks, under conditions giving rise to the payment of special subsistence allowance in respect of the additional expense of living apart from their families. But for the disbandment, the additional sum required under this Subhead would be about £77,000. This Subhead and the next, and all the following, except those for "Pensions and Gratuities" and "Appropriations-in-Aid,," are

    1563
    largely consequential upon the increase in personnel and the increased activity during the early part of 1921.
    Subhead E, "Travelling Expenses," is largely due to additional personnel and to the increased mobility of the force. As in the case of subsistence allowance, the original Estimate of £52,000 was based on the average rate taken over the period up to 1920, when the original Estimate was prepared. Since that date the actual expenditure shows a higher average rate. The additional £109,000 includes £40,000 as the cost of repatriating on disbandment members of the various arms of the force who were recruited from Great Britain for service during the Irish emergency. The total number of such officers and men who were disbanded is 6,622, and over 6,000 have already left Ireland. I hope, with the exception of certain details left to wind up accounts, and so forth, all the remainder will be in England or Scotland this week.
    Subhead F is for clothing, and I ask approval of an additional sum of £20,000 due entirely to the increase in personnel.
    A very large Supplementary Estimate of £280,550 under the Subhead "Arms, Ammunition, Accoutrements and Saddlery" requires some explanation. I shall be happy to make it as clear as possible. In 1920–21 the War Department supplied the Royal Irish Constabulary with arms and ammunition to the value of £350,000. The claims in respect of these were furnished so late that year that it was possible to pay only £170,000 within 1920–21, leaving £180,000 to be met in the current financial year. The additions to the force, and additional purchase of arms, ammunition and accoutrements account for the balance and makes up the total, a very large total, I admit, of £280,550.
    Subhead K, "Barrack Furniture," and Subhead L, "Fuel, Light and Water," are supplementary items submitted because the original estimates did not take into account either an increase in personnel or the increases in expenses and charges connected with the police in Ireland.
    Subhead N is for Incidental Expenses. So that the Committee can clearly understand what this additional sum of £66,000 is for, I shall divide it up into its detailed headings. This substantial in-
    1564
    crease is partly attributable to the very heavy medical and hospital expenses arising out the malicious and other injuries inflicted upon police personnel, and is also consequential on the increase in the strength of the constabulary. We had over 2,000 police treated for various injuries and accidents and illnesses in hospital, absorbing a sum of £19,050. Advances have been made to officers of the Force to enable them to purchase motorcars for use on official business, and those, of course, are repaid by instalments?
    Mr. HOGGE: How much?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I think it is about £7,000. The cars were given to officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary to enable them the more efficiently to perform their duties, and they were bought by the officers on the instalment plan.
    Mr. HOGGE: Does my hon. Friend mean that officers who engaged on Government business were actually asked to buy back the cars, and that the cars then belong to them and no longer to the Government?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: We considered it was the best way of doing it.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the Government bought cars and the officers bought the cars from the Government on the instalment system? Is that it? Did the Government buy the car in the first instance?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Yes, usually.
    Mr. MOLES: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee also whether it is not a fact that upon disbandment these officers are compelled to pay off the balance of instalments of the cars, although they no longer need a car, either for private or for other purposes?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am supporting the amount of the Estimate. One of the items of the account is for these cars. The question whether these officers should be asked to continue the instalments for the cars I should have thought was a matter to be settled by the individual officers. I myself would not be in favour of compelling an officer to complete the paying of instalments if he did not want the car on disbandment.
    Sir J. REMNANT: What about the instalments already paid?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I think that is a matter that ought to be considered as between the officers who have the cars and the Government, and I can promise my hon. Friend that it will be done.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Is it proposed to give these ex-officers the cars for their own purposes?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: No, it is not.
    Captain BENN: Who have them?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The officers have the cars at the moment.
    Sir R. HOUSTON: If you do not ask them to pay up their instalments, are you going to allow them to retain the cars?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: No. The issue is perfectly simple. Some of the officers had their own cars, and those got motor allowances. It was considered that would make for the efficiency of the force if the other, and generally junior, officers also had ears. Facilities were given them to purchase cars on the instalment system. Now that disbandment is taking place, a new set of circumstances arises, and I can assure the Committee that no officer of the Constabulary will be penalised because of this decision, taken in the midst of hostilities, and which must be reviewed now that peace is happily in Ireland again.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Ought there not to be a Treasury official here to hear this? Where is the Treasury?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am responsible for the Vote. The final item of this subhead represents the payment from public funds of the funeral expenses of men murdered or accidentally killed in the discharge of their duty, and I regret to say that there were 310 of these funerals payable out of the Supplementary Estimate.
    Subhead 0, for transport service, requires an additional sum of £205,000. The plain fact is the original Estimate did not sufficiently provide for the actual needs. The increased strength of the police forces necessitated the provision of extra vehicles.
    Mr. HOGGE: Were they hired or bought?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: They were bought. The system of patrolling also demanded an additional number of vehicles. The incrasing risk to the police made it less and less possible for them to use the ordinary public conveyances, like railway trains. All the commitments under this subhead were incurred prior to the truce. All orders for transport ceased at that time.
    Captain BENN: Is the petrol for motor cars or for any other purpose?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: The burning down of creameries
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: There is a small amount of £3,000 required under Subhead P ("Compensation for damage or injuries"). This has been paid owing to numerous road accidents involving compensation, and it was largely due to the large increase in the number of cars in constant use, the result being that the number of accidents was larger than had been foreseen at the time of the original Estimate.
    Sir R. HOUSTON: Accidents to individuals or to cars?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Accidents to civilians or property, as when a car ran over a pig or a fowl, or any of the other obstacles that sometimes beset an Irish road. Under Subhead P 1, there are "Special Advances to Widows and Children." During the course of hostilities the Government gave a pledge on this matter, which has been carried out, as all pledges to the police and their widows and children that I have given at this Box have been carried out. This particular £8,000 was required to give effect to the pledge of the Government that, pending payment on account of awards of criminal injury compensation to the widows and orphans of constables who were murdered in the execution of their duty, an advance would be made equivalent to an amount equal to two-thirds of the murdered policeman's pay. It does not represent additional expenditure, as this amount is recoverable in due course when the recipients receive the compensation awards granted to them by the County Courts in respect of the deaths of their husbands or fathers. As far as these awards are concerned, I should say that the money would be recovered at a very early date. The only

    1567
    reason for delay is that we now have two Governments in Ireland and one here, and all three of us must come to some, arrangement. It is a great hardship that people should be kept out of their money, especially those who have suffered bereavement and who belong to a class, the police class, which must look, and I think always will look with hope and success, to this House to see that their money is paid.
    Subhead Q, "Pensions and Gratuities," calls for an additional £91,377. This item is required because of an underestimate in the number of disablement pensions in the original Estimate. There have been granted 107 disablement pensions in addition to those contemplated in the original Estimate. This Subhead also provides for a payment of £10 in advance of pension to a proportion of the permanent Force disbanded before 31st March, namely, 3,823 British recruits. Provision is also made, as set out in the note to the Estimate, for a pension of £1,466 to the late Inspector-General of the Force for his duties and the dangers that he ran, and for certain extra statutory pensions, seven in number, as set out. The award of £1,466 is two-thirds of the retired officer's salary at the time of retirement and exceeds by £233 13s. 2d. the amount of pension for which he was qualified by length of service. This extra-statutory pension was granted in view of the difficult and onerous nature of the duties which Sir Thomas Smith was called upon to perform in conditions of unprecedented trouble and strain, and of the grave personal risks his position compelled him to run.
    Mr. J. JONES: Is this gentleman still in office?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am glad to welcome the hon. Member for Silvertown back to the House, and I regret the illness that has kept him from it. Sir Thomas Smith retired over a year ago on the pension that I am now asking the House to approve. He did good service, and had one of the longest records in the Force.
    Mr. JONES: Have the other officers resigned or retired?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: To whom does the hon. Member refer?
    Mr. JONES: General Wood.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: General Wood of the Auxiliary Division, and everyone else connected with the Auxiliary Division, has been disbanded. None of them were on pensionable terms. I dealt with that point earlier under Subhead B. The liabilities of the Government in this direction are met by this Supplementary Estimate.
    Major MACKENZIE WOOD: Has Sir Thomas Smith been drawing £1,466 since 4th December, 1920?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: He has been drawing that amount since he went on pension.
    Major WOOD: Without sanction?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Without Parliamentary sanction, if you will. The real amount involved now is £233.
    Major WOOD: Without sanction?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is all set out very carefully in the printed Estimates, so that the Committee can be fully possessed of the facts. I am giving the reason why the extra amount of £233 was granted.
    Major WOOD: Why was it granted before sanction had been got?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The Treasury has power to grant payments in advance, subject to the ultimate approval of this House.
    Captain BENN: Why delay 15 months after he retired before asking for sanction?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I do not know, but I should think that at the time the ordinary Estimate was prepared, the question of the amount of pension to be paid to the late Inspector-General could not have been settled. It would not have been fair to this officer to have kept him out of this extra amount, pending the approval of the House, inasmuch as it was a fair presumption that the action of the Treasury in this particular case would be approved by the House.
    Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not remember that throughout the Civil Service it is the practice for sums of money to be drawn in anticipation of sanction? That applies to the Civil Service generally, and not only to the Irish Office.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is a common practice. I am glad that this is the only case in which the Irish Government has been accused of anticipating the approval of the House, and I am sure I can appeal to the Committee on no better case than this.
    Under Subhead R, Appropriations-in-Aid, I regret that I have to ask approval of the very large sum of £196,000 because of the plain fact that the local government of Ireland broke down during the recent hostilities in that country. The Local Taxation Account was depleted and there was no prospect of appropriating this amount, in the current financial year at any rate. I can give no further details than those of the original Estimate. That was for £234,000, and now I ask for an additional £196,000, because in most of the counties of Ireland local government broke down and it was not possible to collect debts as was regularly done in quieter and happier days.
    Captain BENN: Did the right hon. Gentleman not explain that three-quarters of Ireland was as peaceful as it could be?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Did I say three-quarters? I regret that all Ireland is not more peaceful now than it is, and no one regrets it more than I do. I do not remember saying three-quarters of Ireland, but a large portion of Ireland. I do not see that that arises on the Supplementary Estimates, however.
    The CHAIRMAN: I must ask hon. Members not to interrupt continuously. There is a whole evening during which it will be possible to raise these questions.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: My interruption was due to the remark of the Chief Secretary for Ireland that this question—
    The CHAIRMAN: I was not referring to the hon. Member in particular, but the interruptions have been of so continuous a character that it has been clearly impossible to follow the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I have gone through the Estimates in some detail, and I hope I have, at any rate, made the reason for them clear. Naturally, one is prepared to clear up any point that has not been made clear, and I hope the Committee will take a full opportunity of dealing with any points that are in doubt. May I say one personal thing? During
    1570
    two years at this Box I have championed the Royal Irish Constabulary. I can look back upon that time with the knowledge that I have done my duty, as any other hon. Member would have done his, in supporting these fighting men under circumstances of unexampled difficulty. The presentation of these Estimates is the beginning of the end of that great force which for 100 years has served successive Governments in Ireland in fair weather and in foul, and I am sure the Committee, however much they may differ as to the policy of the Government in the past and as to my administration, will hope that the Irish policemen now being disbanded will be able to go back to their homes and follow the avocations they choose unmolested and untroubled in future. They have done their duty, and, I think myself, the time will come when with a clearer vision we shall better appreciate these men of the Royal Irish Constabulary. Representing, as I think they do, the fine flower of the manhood of Ireland, they deserve the appreciation and the admiration of everyone who admires courage and devotion to duty.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £5.
    I am sure the Committee will join in the tribute, and the very high tribute, just paid by the Chief Secretary to the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Royal Irish Constabulary have passed through dangerous and difficult times, and everyone who knows their record will agree that no better, no more loyal and no more courageous force has ever existed among the forces of the Crown than the Royal Irish Constabulary. I trust that when my right hon. Friend comes to make the arrangement which, I suppose, he must make, for pensioning off those who have served in this force for a number of years past, he will remember the services they have rendered, the difficulties and the dangers through which they have passed, and will see that the pensions awarded to them will be such as to enable them to live without the hardship and, in some cases, almost the starvation, they are now experiencing. In regard to the amount of £91,000 for pensions and gratuities, I wish to ask the Chief Secretary whether this amount includes any allowances made to the men injured in the Rebellion of 1916, in addition to the amount they have already received? My right hon. Friend knows these men

    1571
    will not come under the new Orders which are being made in connection with the injuries pensions of 1921. My right hon. Friend must also know that these men cannot receive any compensation under the Malicious Injuries (Ireland) Act, 1919. I gather from what he has said that it would be quite open to him to make a non-statutory allowance in anticipation of what this House may grant, just as he has done in other cases dealt with in this Estimate. It would be quite possible to make such an allowance, under proper circumstances, to these men, and perhaps my right hon. Friend, if he has not already done so, will take that into account and, remember the cases of these men who lost their limbs or their health and became cripples in consequence of the part which they took in resisting the Rebellion of 1916, and who are in receipt of pensions of something like £1 a week, or perhaps 22s. or 23s. That is a state of things which, I am sure, hon. Members do not like to see.
    I pass to another class of pensioners, namely, those injured in the course of their duty since the beginning of 1917. As I understand it, their pensions will be revised under the new orders which are shortly to be issued. I call the Chief Secretary's attention to the fact that in many cases such men retired upon pensions little, if anything, above the normal pensions which they would have received had they retired voluntarily or at the end of their time. They get little, if anything, for the injuries which they received in the discharge of their duty during these last two or three very difficult years. May I further ask why these new orders have not been issued? They were to have been issued as soon as the Act of 1921 was passed, and I think that is now about eight months ago, yet the new orders are not yet issued. I hope my right hon. Friend will see that no further delay occurs, because men who have been injured in the course of their duty are in many cases on such small pensions as £1 to 25s. a week, trying to support themselves and their wives and families. It is of the utmost importance to them that the new orders should be issued as soon as possible, and that they should get the benefit under those orders to which they are entitled. It is not as though these men were living in Great Britain. Were they living in Great
    1572
    Britain, after retirement from the police force, the Government and private employers and everyone else would be delighted to give what employment they could to these men who have done their duty. It is not so, however, in Ireland. These men in many districts find it absolutely impossible to get any employment whatever; they are boycotted and intimidated. I sincerely hope, with my right hon. Friend, that this may stop in the future, but I am sorry to see it has not stopped yet, and the moment the new Government is established a good many of them, I am afraid, may lose that employment in Government service which they now enjoy. I mention this to show how very pitiable and how very urgent are the cases of these men, and I beg of the Chief Secretary to lose no time in bringing in the new orders and allowing these men the benefit of which they are urgently in need.
    I wish also to ask the Chief Secretary whether the item for pensions includes anything for additional pensions to men who retired before April, 1919? I do not know whether the Committee realises—my right hon. Friend I know does—that men who retired before April, 1919, retired upon absolutely miserable pensions of something like one quarter of the amount which they would have received had they retired after April, 1919. That is a very cruel thing, but perhaps provision has been made for them in this £91,000. If not, my right hon. Friend might, in accordance with the principle he has already laid down, have sums issued to them in anticipation of the sum which I doubt not this Committee will be only too delighted to grant. I am not going to weary the House by reading the letters which I have received upon this point, but some of them are absolutely pathetic. One man has written to me:
    "If something is not done we shall have to lie down and die."
    Another man writes an appeal to Members of the House to help him, and these men are described by one of their own secretaries in this way:
    "It is heart-rending to see the black look of despair on the faces of our men now."
    I hope, if my right hon. Friend has not already made provision for these men, he will consider their case, and I hope I am entitled to assure them that the majority of hon. Members will gladly remedy the grave injustice which has been

    1573
    done to these men. Another point to which I wish to refer relates to the arms, ammunition, barrack furniture, and transport, which represent a very large sum. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he has got any credit for the rifles, ammunition, and motor-cars which, as we know, have been sold to the Provisional Government? I think the exact phrase used was not "sold," but "handed over at a valuation." We know, at any rate, that a thousand rifles, a large quantity of ammunition, and a good many motor-cars have been handed over to the Provisional Government, and I wish to ask my right hon. Friend at what price they have been handed over. What do we get for them? I hope we are getting the full price. It was said there was to be a valuation. Has the valuation been made and, if so, who made it? Perhaps my right hon. Friend will also tell us the total amount, firstly, in regard to the rifles; secondly, in regard to the ammunition; thirdly, in regard to the motor-cars; and, fourthly, in regard to the barrack furniture, which was handed over, and what is the total amount which it is proposed the Provisional Government should pay? The fact that we are clearing out of Ireland is no reason why we should give these things away, and I think the British taxpayer would be rightly indignant if it were found that, while asking for large sums amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds, for stores, rifles, ammunition and transport, we are going to hand over a considerable portion of the articles bought with those sums for perhaps a very small amount to the Provisional Government. I only express my own opinion, but I think that would be exceedingly unfair to the British taxpayer. Let the Provisional Government pay for what they are getting. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will inform the Committee whether any sum has been brought into credit in respect of the articles so handed over? We also heard the other day of motor-cars which were disposed of, not to the Provisional Government, but to some local authorities. We were not told what sums were paid for those. We paid a good deal for them, and I hope it will be seen to that we are paid the proper sum when we hand them over.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Nothing has been brought in so far.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I supposed that something would probably be brought in as an appropriation-in-aid. I should imagine that is how it would be done, and I have looked for an appropriation-in-aid, but I cannot find that there is one.
    The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I cannot quite follow the argument of the hon. and learned Member. Is he referring to some possible appropriation-in-aid which may result from the sale of certain articles? If that be so, it would not come in the present financial year, and I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to pursue that point.
    Sir F. BANBURY: On a point of Order. May I ask whether, if the articles which were sold were, paid for—if they were sold cash on delivery—whether that would not come into the proceedings on this Vote?
    The CHAIRMAN: I think it would be better to wait until that has happened.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I would ask the Chief Secretary whether he has got any money yet for these articles which have been handed over to the Provisional Government? If he has not got any money for them, perhaps he will tell us why he has not taken it on delivery, which I should have thought was the best way. If they have been sold to the Provisional Government, let the Provisional Government pay for them. In regard to the Appropriations-in-Aid, the Chief Secretary said he had to come here and ask for £196,000, because the Appropriationsin-Aid fell short of the sum anticipated by that amount. In other words, the British taxpayer is asked to pay very nearly £200,000 more than was anticipated when the Estimates were brought in. If I understand the right hon. Gentleman's explanation aright, it is that these funds ought to have been paid by the local authorities in different parts of Ireland, but they have not paid a farthing; they have paid £200,000 less than what they ought to have paid. There were charges for extra police and other matters which ought to have been paid by them, and which were not paid, so that it is not merely a deficit in the amount of the Estimate, but a sum of £196,000 by which these local authorities are in actual de-

    1575
    fault. If they had paid their debts, we should not have been asked to pay this money now, and therefore may I ask an assurance from the Chief Secretary that that will be remembered when he is making a final settlement with the Provisional Government? Perhaps he will also tell us what efforts he has made to get this £106,000.
    Sir F. BANBURY: The Chief Secretary concluded his speech by an eloquent appeal to the Committee to support this Vote on the ground that the Royal Irish Constabulary had rendered great service to the country. There is not a man in the Committee who would disagree with the right hon. Gentleman on that point, but the question really is not whether the Royal Irish Constabulary have done their duty, but whether the Government have done their duty, whether we are justified in voting this extra sum of £1,474,370 to the Government, and whether the Government, if they had exercised the ordinary care which a proper Government should exercise, would not have been able to avoid this very large expenditure. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Butcher) has laid great stress on the question of pensions, but I would point out to the Committee that only £100,000 out of the total of nearly £1,500,000 is set aside for pensions. The other items are for pay, allowances, travelling expenses, clothing, arms, ammunition, barrack furniture, fuel, transport service, and so on. What I want to say is this, that if the Government had been going to surrender, why did they not surrender before it was necessary to bring forward these Supplementary Estimates? What they have done is to ask us to pay £1,500,000 for nothing at all. Therefore, I think the right hon. Gentleman, instead of appealing to the loyalty of the Royal Irish Constabulary, which was never in question, should have brought forward reasons to show why the Government spent this money, which has been spent absolutely unnecessarily and which has done no good to anybody.
    I am sorry the hon. and learned Member for York has left the Chamber, because he asked one or two pertinent questions on some of these items. I will take, first of all, the item, "Arms, ammunition, accoutrements, and saddlery,"
    1576
    which is explained to mean "arms and accoutrements for additional men; also additional machine guns, ammunition, etc." What has happened to these arms and accoutrements and machine guns? I suppose they are worth something. If they have been handed over, either to Mr. de Valera or to the Provisional Government, and have not been handed over for cash on delivery, I think the right hon. Gentleman has done a very foolish thing, because if he has only got a bit of paper in exchange, what value does he put on that bit of paper? The total value of these things is put down at £280,550. What shall we say is their value at second hand? Shall we say £200,000? If they gave £280,550 for them, and we take off something like 30 per cent. for soiled goods, slightly damaged, I think that is a very considerable amount to take off. Presuming, then, that the right hon. Gentleman has sold these things for £200,000 and received an acknowledgment but no cash, what would he discount that acknowledgment for, and would he be prepared to advance very much of his own money against this acknowledgment? Personally, I do not think he would. Then what about barrack furniture? Has that been handed over to the Irish Republican Army? What has happened to the transport service, which is put down at £205,000?? What is the Government going to get for these additional vehicles, tyres, etc.? They ought to be worth a very considerable sum
    There is an item on page 31 of the Estimates: "Special advances to widows and children of murdered policemen," and I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman put rather an emphasis on the words "murdered policemen." Have the murderers of these policemen been hung, and if not, why not? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will kindly answer that. There are three or four rather extraordinary statements under the heading: "Pensions and gratuities." There is one item—
    "Pension to the widow of a sergeant killed in error by Crown forces."
    and another item—
    "Pension to the widow of a sergeant killed in like circumstances."
    I should like to ask how it is that these two sergeants were killed in error by the Crown forces. There is an item for the

    1577
    "widows of three constables killed on duty by the accidental discharge of their comrades' firearms,"
    and that is an unfortunate accident which might happen without any fault of the people concerned, but there is evidently a difference between that and these cases of two sergeants who were killed in error by Crown forces. They are very extra-ordinary items, and I should very much like to know how they arose. Then there is an item—
    "Pension to the widow of a constable killed in a motor accident, due to fast driving in a dangerous district."
    What does that mean? Were the roads bad? Was the district dangerous because of the roads, or because of the gentlemen with whom the right hon. Gentleman has just made peace? Were there many of them about trying to shoot the unfortunate representatives of the Government? If so, fast driving, with only one or two constables in the car, perhaps, and a good many of these gentlemen about, would seem to me a proper thing to do. The hon. and learned Member for York asked about the item, "Appropriations-in-Aid"? As I understand the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, it comes to this, that the police forces, who were there to protect the subjects of the Empire, were paid, as in England, partly from Imperial funds and partly from local funds. Now, apparently, the local people, who were being protected by these police, refuse to pay the proper amount which is due. I am glad to see that there is a representative from Ireland in his place opposite, as he may be able to give us some light on this question.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Perhaps the right hon. Baronet will tell me what is his authority for the statement he makes that this is a local charge?
    Sir F. BANBURY: The Chief Secretary is my authority.
    Mr. J. JONES: Is there any local police rate in Ireland?
    5.0 P.M.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I listened very carefully to the Chief Secretary, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not, and I founded my speech upon his statement. The right hon. Gentleman made some remarks about peace in Ireland. It is not my idea of peace. Assuming, for the
    1578
    sake of argument, that the right hon. Gentleman is right, and we have peace in Ireland, why should we pay £196,000 to attain that result? Because that is what it comes to. I do not know whether I shall have the support of my hon. Friends from Ireland.
    Mr. MOLES: We pay the same taxation as you.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Then I shall certainly have their support. But why should we have to pay £196,000 to the local authorities in Southern Ireland, or whoever it is, because they refuse to carry out their duty? I do not see we gain any advantage by it, and I must insist upon an answer, because I am very much afraid that this is going to lead to something of the same sort, but to a very much larger degree. I am very much afraid we shall be asked to find Supplementary Estimates to pay people money which ought to have been found by the local authorities, and has not been found.
    The item for travelling expenses appears to be a rather large sum. The Estimate says:
    "Increase in the numbers of the Force and payment on demobilisation of fares to homes in Great Britain of members of the Force recruited there, also underestimate."
    What does "also underestimate" mean? It is not, to my intellect, very clear. Does that mean an underestimate of the number of the force, or an underestimate of the payment? Even allowing that the railway charges are reasonable—and, in my opinion, they are—the sum of £109,000 seems a very great deal to pay for the fares of men who were recruited in Great Britain and brought back again. I do not know what the numbers of these men were, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will kindly inform me.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: If I rightly understand the question of my right hon. Friend, he wants to know the number of members of the loyal Irish Constabulary who were recruited in England and have been sent back from Ireland. The number is 6,622 of whom over 6,000 have already returned to Great Britain.
    Sir F. BANBURY: That is about £16 a head. I am rather under the mark. It seems a large amount for travelling expenses from Ireland, which is not such a very long way off.
    Mr. J. JONES: What about the stuff they ordered and never paid for?
    Sir F. BANBURY: I do not quite see the relevancy of that.
    Mr. JONES: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman in a minute.
    Sir F. BANBURY: What I want to know is, why it costs £16 each to bring them over? It is only travelling expenses, and not gratuities and other charges. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give an answer to my questions that will enable me to support the Government on this occasion.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am loath to intervene in the usual family quarrel that exists between the extreme Conservatives and their late hero, the Chief Secretary, but there are one or two questions I wish to ask that late hero—
    Sir F. BANBURY: My remarks were more in sorrow than in anger.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My sorrow is tempered with a little pleasure, I am glad to say, and that is the attitude of my hon. Friends on this side, even when scrutinising these Estimates. I should first like to draw attention to the state of the Treasury Bench. It is called the Treasury Bench, because it is supposed to defend the people against unjust extortions, and to watch the interest of the Exchequer. We have the ample proportions of the right hon. Gentleman, who fills his office very admirably, and we have one of the Gentlemen-in-Waiting to His Majesty (Mr. Dudley Ward), but we have no representatives of the Treasury, so far as I can see, at the present moment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not deign to come down. The Financial Secretary was in for a few moments, and has now disappeared, and yet we are asked for a Supplementary Vote of £1,474,000, which comes on top of an Estimate—this is only one of the items for the better government of Ireland—of a total amount of £7,045,039 for the Royal Irish Constabulary alone. When this enormous Supplementary Estimate is presented, containing many questionable details to which the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has drawn attention, and which are open to grave doubt, no representative of the
    1580
    Treasury puts in an appearance. I think it is treating the House of Commons with contempt, and the taxpayer in the usual way of the Government.
    I wish to follow up the questions which have been asked by putting one or two others which, I hope, are pertinent. Speaking for myself, and I hope for all hon. Members on this side, we do not intend to raise any objection whatever under the heading of "Special Advances to Widows and Children." I myself had to apply to the right hon. Gentleman for certain constituents of mine who suffered under the appalling conditions of Ireland last year, and I know it was necessary to make these advances. I am quite sure, therefore, no hon. Member on this side wants to make any objection to pensions or anything of that sort. With regard to gratuities that are being paid to-day to the demobilised members of the auxiliary division, I think it right to compare them with the gratuities paid to Army officers at the close of the War. At that tme, when money was worth a little less than it is now, the officers of the Army, I think, received about 124 days' pay for the first year of service, excluding allowances, and 62 days for each subsequent year or part of a year. I do not compare the Navy, because we received prize money, and the position is altogether different but I take the Army, where conditions were very similar to the conditions in Ireland, except that they were more strenuous. A commissioned officer, a lieutenant, received, I think, £90 for two years' service in the field and £120 for three years' service. The auxiliary cadet, I think, receives £70, and, in some cases, as high as £250. I am not going to make any comment about the £70 but under what circumstances does an auxiliary cadet get £250? He cannot have had more than two years' service.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: They do not get a gratuity of £250. That is the money the Government contracted to pay them.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I understood it was a gratuity, that they were not under any special contract, and that this was an act of grace. Perhaps, however, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is better informed than I am, and I will give way at once if that be so. This £250, however, is being paid to the auxiliary

    1581
    cadet, and we have not got the money to pay it, but it will have to be borrowed. This is not the time to pay £250 for two years' service when you paid your lieutenant only £90 for two years in the trenches. I think it is time we dropped heroics and came down to facts. I do not attack these men, but the Government. I want to see the men fairly treated, but we cannot afford to be lavish, and to pay £250, in the present state of the finances of the country, is wicked extravagance. Unless some more suitable explanation can be given than that which we have had already, when the meagre reduction of £5 has been disposed of, I hope someone will move a larger reduction, and enable us to put this matter to the test of a Division.
    In view of the very large sum asked for these gratuities, may I ask how many of these men have been retained in Government service, because that makes a difference to the justice or otherwise of the grant of money? Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if these cadets in many cases were not demobilised at all from Government service, but were at once shipped off to police forces elsewhere, and a great many were offered suitable employment in Palestine and other parts of the world? If that be so, can we be informed about it? Is it intended to employ these ex-special constables and auxiliary cadets in this country if required? Are they all in a roster to enable them to be called up in an emergency? Is it intended to employ them in this country in case of any large industrial dispute? Those are things we ought to be told, and I think they are relevant to the vote of this large sum of £371,000. Might I also ask what is the actual pay that is being given to the A Division Special Constabulary, and whether this pay ought not to be met, by the Northern Government, and why we are being asked at all? Is it the fact that the pay of a special constable is £5 a week and various allowances? Of course, if that is considered suitable pay for these special A constables by the Northern Government, I think the Northern Government ought, to pay it. I certainly do not think they ought to come to this House, in view of our straitened circumstances, and ask for this large vote of money. I should very much like enlightenment, on that point, and would
    1582
    be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for it.
    I mentioned at the beginning of my remarks that I did not think anyone on this side of the House would object to special advantage being given to the widows and orphans of murdered policemen. I am quite confident about that; though I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question which I put to him several times last Session. The point is this: If it is right that the widows and orphans of assassinated police-constables should receive compensation immediately, without waiting for the machinery of the law to be put into motion, as to the amount and so on—they must not be allowed to suffer—the widows and orphans are as deserving of compassion in Ireland as in England; and I, therefore, ask where there have been cases of murders of Irishmen by the Crown forces, admitted murders, admitted by the right hon. Gentleman, by the King's Courts in Ireland, and admitted at courts martial—in one case committed, I believe, by an officer of the Crown—what happens to the widows and orphans of these murdered men? Have they yet received anything? I have one case in mind on which I put a particular question to the right hon. Gentleman when he was still the hero of the Conservative party, when they still believed in his policy, and his pledges—
    Sir F. BANBURY: I never did!
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I refer to the case of a man called Crowley who was killed about the same time as Canon Magner—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman's reference is irrelevant to the Vote under discussion.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg your pardon, Sir, but the point I was going to ask about was whether if it was possible to ask for money for the widows and children of police constables, it was impossible to ask for money for the relatives of other men murdered in Ireland? However, if I am wrong, I will at once leave that point to deal with other particulars of the Estimate. I do not think I quite understand the figures given by the Chief Secretary about the travelling expenses of 6,000 Black-and-Tans, which he put at £40,000. The sum seems very high. I do not understand how the money

    1583
    has been spent in bringing 6,622 men from Ireland to England. It works out at over £6 per head. I have done the journey several times, and I know the fare, and I think we ought to have some more details. In regard to Item G, I do not want to repeat the questions asked by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury), but I would like to ask another question as to the extra arms and accoutrements. The right hon. Baronet quite properly asked whether there had been any payment made by the Provisional Government for the 200 rifles and equipment handed over to them, and, I believe, 40 odd motor vehicles. Has there been any payment for the much larger amount of equipment handed over to the Northern Government of Ireland? Is it a fact that as many as 5,000 rifles were handed over to the Northern Government? I dare say, in the view of the Chairman of Committees of the Northern Parliament, the Imperial Government do not need the money.
    Mr. MOLES: We do not quite take that view.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am talking of British rifles handed over by this British Government, not by the German Government. I should like to known if the statements are true which I have heard that 5,000 rifles were handed over to the Northern Government? If so were they paid for, or a receipt given, or a promise to pay, or a post-dated cheque given, or what? Has money been received or were these free goods? Were motor lorries and armoured cars given to them; if so what was the payment? Or will any money be given by way of offset against the various heavy payments which we are called to pay under this Supplementary Vote? Were machine guns given to the Northern Government and is any payment going to be made for them? If so, when will we get the money? I am told that the Northern Government already is £8,000,000 in debt. I hope we have some prior lien of some sort on their assets, collecting the customs or something of that sort, and that our money has not gone out of sight altogether.
    Belfast is a wealthy city, and I should like to know whether we are going to have any better luck for these things we have handed over to the Northern Government than the Germans who sent
    1584
    the rifles to Danzig before the War. The question of incidental expenses comes under Item N. I think this deserves rather more explanation than we have had. We want a little more clarity on this question of motor ears supplied on the hire purchase system. It seems to me to be a most extraordinary transaction. Here we have the Government purchasing motor cars and selling them to these officers, the money to be paid by instalments. Now, apparently, from what I hear from every part of the House, these officers find themselves handicapped by the cars. They have lost their jobs. They want the Government to take the cars back, and it is not clear whether they have to keep the cars or sell them, or whether they have to go on making payments to the Government. The right hon. Gentleman at the Box opposite became suddenly very generous with other people's money, as he is wont to be, and he talked about these gallant fellows not being allowed to suffer. The whole transaction seems to me to be very irregular, as many of the transactions in the Irish Office have been in the last two years. But I should think the worst deeds of war procedure have been excelled in the imitation war period which has been enjoyed in Dublin Castle and which is now happily at an end. In particular, I think the blouse should be aware of the amount we have already voted under the head of Transport. In Item O of the main Vote, I find that for the purchase, maintenance, and running expenses of motor-transport vehicles, the amount in 1920–21 was over £894,000. It got to over £1,000,000. In 1921–22 we were asked for a Vote for £468,000. Now the Government come along and ask for an additional sum of £205,000—getting on for a quarter of a million—for provision for additional vehicles, tyres, petrol, etc.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Joy rides!
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme says "joy rides." I should like to know how this matter stands. We ought to have some explanation. The thing is dismissed briefly in these Supplementary Estimates, and the right hon. Gentleman only referred to it in a couple of sentences in his exposition. This amount on the top of the previous amounts of nearly £1,500,000 over the few years needs

    1585
    explanation. If this is the way our money is being spent in Ireland, I certainly think that the sooner there is a Commission set up to inquire into the whole of the finances of the Government of Ireland during the last few years the better. Some extraordinary revelations would probably be made. Take item Q (Pensions and Gratuities). There is a pension to an inspector-general of £1,456 13s. 4d. in lieu of £1,233 0s. 2d. I am not going to challenge the right hon. Gentleman for having spent this money without getting the prior consent of the House of Commons. That sort of thing has become much too common under this Government to be worth while wasting time over. Every time these irregularities in finance are drawn attention to the dumb battalions are whipped up and we are voted down. The Government asked for a blank cheque at the last election, and they take jolly good care to fill it in as they desire. This Inspector-General is getting an extra, £233 per year, and the right hon. Gentleman says that "his duties were dangerous, arduous and difficult." That is the excuse for it. I am quite sure those duties were as stated. The duties of everyone in Ireland were dangerous, arduous and difficult. The right hon. Gentleman himself found his duties dangerous, arduous and difficult; but why should this gentleman be singled out for an additional £233 per year because he had a dangerous and difficult task in Ireland? Why, if he gets it, should not every single soldier boy employed in Ireland, every drummer boy, every canteen attendant in Ireland, receive the same pro rata addition to his pension? After all, they all had a dangerous and difficult time. Why should this person be singled out? I make no attack personally. I do not know the man. I never heard his name before. I thought at first this additional pension was for Sir Joseph Byrne, and I was rather surprised to find it was somebody else. I thought it was an extra pension because of the shabby way he was treated by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Sir Joseph Byrne was never a colleague of mine.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I absolve the right hon. Gentleman, but he was of colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman. At any rate, why is Sir
    1586
    Thomas Smith to be entitled to this extra £233 yearly; if so, why are not the rank and file entitled to extra pension? What is sauce for the goose is surely sauce for the gander! This requires a little more explanation. I shall certainly not vote for this extra pension until we get a more satisfactory explanation. If I thought that this was the last we were going to hear of Supplementary Estimates from the Chief Secretary, I should be inclined to pass them in order to get rid of his wretched administration, but this is not the last. We are going to have many more claims in regard to burnings at Balbriggan and Cork and other places. I hope we shall have some assurances from those Members of the Northern Parliament in this House that they are going to help the English taxpayers out of this difficulty, because a great deal of the trouble has been caused by them.
    Mr. MOLES: That is untrue.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I hope hon. Members will come to the relief of the British Exchequer in regard to this matter. This is an example of loose finance and questionable methods from start to finish, and I hope the House, unless we get some more satisfactory explanation, will refuse to pass this Vote.
    Lieut. - Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: I should like to say a word or two with reference to the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who has just sat down, about the pension of Sir Thomas Smith. It seems to me that it is particularly mean to attack that increase in his pension when the whole rank and file of the Royal Irish Constabulary have had their pensions increased on account of the coming to an end of that magnificent force. Every one of them had a certain number of years added, and if the rank and file had their pension increased I do not see why the respected chief of that force should not come under the same rule. I think we should support the Chief Secretary in voting that salary. At the beginning of this Debate the Chief Secretary paid a great tribute to the Royal Irish Constabulary, and I hope that will be supplemented later on in a larger way, because it would be a poor thing if, after 100 years of magnificent service, that force was allowed to pass

    1587
    away without some more permanent record of the opinion of this House. The Royal Irish Constabulary were not only the pride of their own country, but they stood higher in the estimation of foreign countries than any other police force in the world.
    The Chief Secretary said that he had dealt generously in regard to the pensions and bonuses granted to this force, but I wish to draw attention to the fact that a very large number of the members of the Auxiliary Division have not been treated with anything like generosity, but, on the contrary, in the most shabby way. I do not believe that this House when it knows the fact will for one moment support the Government in the line they have adopted towards these splendid men. In June, 1921, the Government, through the Irish Office, asked a large number of auxiliary cadets to re-engage for another year, and acting on that invitation several hundreds of them did re-engage to serve up to July, 1922. Not only were their engagements witnessed by two witnesses, but there was an official recognition of the acceptance of the contract which had actually been given. Nearly two months after this an Order came out repudiating the contract on the part of the Government and saying that those contracts would not be valid in the future. I do not believe there is a single Member of this House who will deny that it is a fact that up till the present whatever the British Government has actually put into a contract has been carried out to the letter. I think to behave in this way to a force like the Auxiliary Division—their contract was accepted before the surrender to the rebels took place—to accept their contracts and then tear them up afterwards is exceedingly mean and a thing which this House, in my opinion, will not agree with.
    I do not think it is possible that this House will support the Government in this matter unless they entirely alter their decisions. It should be remembered that these men could have been compelled to serve if hostilities had gone on, and the Government have no right to tear up that contract and say, "We will not pay you up to the date of your contract, but we will give you a great deal less." The difference is between £70 and £360 in
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    some cases. In the case of an officer named Major Green he was actually offered last year a position in the Ministry of Pensions as a second-grade clerk at £450 a year, and he refused it because he had signed one of these contracts, and then he finds afterwards that the contract which he thought he was pledged to stick to is torn up and thrown in his face and he is now without employment. I do not believe the House will agree to such a thing as that. I think the Chief Secretary will agree with me when I say that that sort of thing has never been done before by any public authority. Last year we had a case on similar lines when the British troops were sent out to India as a replacing force after the War. They were promised that pay should be given to them at the rate of exchange of 1s. 4d. to the rupee, and when the British Army got out there—
    The CHAIRMAN: That question would not be relevant on this Vote.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: I was only giving this as an illustration and an analogy, and when the Indian Government found that faith had been broken with these troops they at once insisted upon putting matters right, although I believe a large sum of money was involved. The Secretary of State for India, who was the responsible Minister, directly this matter was brought to his notice, did his duty and insisted that the contract with the troops should be carried out. I consider that the Chief Secretary in the case I have mentioned is in a similar position. It is necessary that the pledged word of the Government should be kept absolutely to the letter with regard to these men, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is not prepared to give an answer when he replies at least to set up a Select Committee to deal with this question, and also with the several other minor grievances of the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, who are being disbanded, so that they will know that this matter is being properly adjusted. I believe any Select Committee would at once back up the claim of those auxiliaries, whose contracts were torn up and who found themseleves actually worse off than the men who joined after the Truce. These are the men who did the fighting and the dangerous work, and they were not allowed to re-engage, whilst other men

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    who were actually enlisted by the Government after the Truce got a large sum on disbandment than the men doing this dangerous work. I feel sure that the Chief Secretary wishes to do the right thing, and if he cannot give me a satisfactory answer this evening I hope he will consent to appoint a Committee to deal with the matter.
    There are one or two other cases with reference to disbandment. There is the case of the mechanics of the Royal Irish Constabulary. This is a matter upon which I questioned the right hon. Gentleman in the last two weeks of the Session, and I wish to bring to the notice of the Committee the fact that the Prime Minister last year said in reply to a question in this House that this was an obligation of honour. He said:
    "The loyalty and gallantry of their service have been such that it would be a dishonour to any Government or any party to neglect their interests."
    Here is another case where I do not think the generosity which the Prime Minister alluded to has been carried out. I wish to give the Prime Minister his due, because his enemies have never accused him of being niggardly in handing out public money. As regards these constable mechanics, they were originally engaged to serve on a yearly contract. In a question I pointed out to the Chief Secretary that these men were engaged on a yearly contract, that it was subsequently modified into a monthly contract, and finally into a weekly contract, and he denied that that was the case. I have chapter and verse here for my statement. I have in my hand the notices calling for recruits and each one states that it is a yearly contract. It says:
    "Here is a job for you at good pay. Are yon a motor driver or a mechanic? If so, join the transport section of the Royal Irish Constabulary."
    Then follow the conditions offered upon a yearly contract. These men were serving on a yearly contract and they have been discharged with a sum of £10 as a gratuity. Some of them were actually sent off on the date on which their contract expired without any notice whatever. Some of them were sent away from Dublin and were told that they would have to pay their own passage money home, although I know that that matter has been put right since. That is how they started. Last June, 30
    1590
    were treated in that way. They were told to find their way back to England and pay their fares themselves. The matter was raised in this House. I have a paper signed by three sergeants and four constables, dated the 14th November, stating that on the preceding day they were notified that their services were no longer required and that their duty would cease from that date. They were also told to find their way home without their passages being paid. That, surely, is not generous treatment to mete out to these men. These mechanics now have great difficulty in getting work. Some of them were turned out with a bonus of £10 instead of being allowed to take on another year's engagement at 10s. a day. They find it very difficult to get work in this country. Some complain that even here there is a certain amount of feeling against them in their trade unions because they served in the Royal Irish Constabulary, and it militates against their getting employment. In the case of these men an extraordinary bungle was made. An Order was issued on the 5th October from Dublin Castle directing county inspectors that temporary mechanics who had completed 12 months' service should be allowed to draw their bonus and to re-engage for a further 12 months. Some did so re-engage, but two days afterwards another Order was issued cancelling the first one and intimating that for the present no men were to be engaged for a year or any other fixed term, but those who completed their yearly engagement might be retained subject to a month's notice on either side. That is bungling and very bad management, and it certainly was not fair to the men. It is a matter which might well be inquired into by the Committee which I have suggested should be set up.
    There are one or two other little points I wish to touch upon. There is the case of a man who, serving as a constable in Ireland, had his house and furniture at Liverpool destroyed by fire. When he applied for compensation, which he would have got if his house had been situated in Ireland, he was told that the Irish Government could give him nothing. He then applied to the Treasury in this country and was informed that they could pay him nothing. Not only has the man lost his house and furniture, but his wife and children suffered badly through being

    1591
    turned into the street, and he has had to pay a doctor's bill in consequence. The Irish Office and the Treasury played battledore and shuttlecock with him. That, too, is a case which, I think, the Chief Secretary should lay before the Committee I want him to set up. Still another case is that of 12 temporary head constables and 17 temporary sergeants of the Royal Irish Constabulary. These men were holding temporary but very responsible positions for about a year during troubled times. They were all men of long service in the Royal Irish Constabulary, but they only bad temporary rank although they had been promised promotion—a promise which was never carried out in order to save a little bit of their pension. That, again, is not a generous and honourable way of treating these men, and their case ought to be taken into consideration and justice done by them by promoting them to their full rank as promised and giving them the advantage of the higher pension.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it possible to increase this Vote? Would it be in order to do so?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall): No.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is not the hon. and gallant Member advocating an increase of the Vote, and is he in order?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I understood him to be calling attention to certain matters which he wished to be inquired into by a Committee.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: I was only pointing out the way in which these men had been treated, and suggesting that the Chief Secretary should re-adjust this particular Estimate. These are small matters I brought forward in order to show that there have been many causes of irritation, and that cases have been treated with a great lack of generosity. Here is one other small point. It is only a matter of 10s., but it affects men who served over a large part of the country. Temporary constables were engaged at 10s. per day, and that, with 365 days to the year, represents £182 10s. The Treasury insisted on their pound of flesh. They said the men were only allowed £182 a year, and they called on a number of
    1592
    them to refund the 10s., although they had worked for it. It is a small matter, but it tends to show that the Irish bureaucracy is no better than any other red-tape institution. These things cause great irritation and discontent throughout the country, and they ought not to occur, especially when we are dealing with a body of men who have rendered such fine service to the nation. Cannot the Chief Secretary see his way, even if he cannot at once give a satisfactory answer with reference to the case of the ex-officers of the Auxiliary Division, to agree to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the whole question of the grievances which have arisen since the disbandment of the Royal Irish Constabulary?
    Captain BENN: I am not concerned to disagree with the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite and other hon. Members who have drawn attention to certain grievances of persons who have been engaged by the Chief Secretary to carry out his policy. It is quite obvious that if the Chief Secretary has a policy such as has been referred to, someone must pay the bill for it when it comes in. I hear an hon. Member suggest that we should change both the policy and the Chief Secretary.
    Sir F. BANBURY: The policy changes every few moments.
    Captain BENN: This, at any rate, is a coherent piece of policy for which this is the bill, and we are dealing with it in the light of the present public demand for economy. Last year's Estimate was £3,500,000. That was increased in the course of the financial year to £6,000,000. The Vote for the current year when brought in was £7,200,000, and it has now been increased to £8,400,000. These are items which go to make up the £175,000,000 which the taxpayers are hoping to be relieved of. They are items which they might have been relieved of many months ago to the advantage of the taxpayer and to the advantage of trade generally. I should like to complain of the way in which this Committee is being treated by the responsible officials of the Government. I am not going to say anything about the merits of the Vote, for I know nothing about them, although I would point out that the difference between the £250 paid to the inspector-general as an additional risk allowance and the £15 allowed to the

    1593
    motherless child of a murdered constable is very marked. There is no representative of the Treasury present to-day except an hon. Gentleman who occupies a sinecure post. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury makes a point of absenting himself from Debates in which his opinions are essential. I would like to know, did the Treasury actually sanction the extra statutory allowance to the inspector-general; if it did not, it is characteristic of the loose way in which control is being exercised by the Treasury on matters of finance, particularly in connection with this Department. This is a bill which the taxpayer has to pay for the privilege of having the right hon. Gentleman as Chief Secretary last year. I did not agree with the policy for which this Estimate is the Bill. We thought it was wrong and disgraceful, but here is the bill. A point on which we can all agree is, we were told when this expense was being incurred that the policy was a success. The right hon. Gentleman stated in this House that the policy of the Government was succeeding and succeeding rapidly. He added:
    "The general condition of Ireland, in my opinion, is improving. In two-thirds or nearly three-fourths of Ireland there is as great peace as in the County of Kent."
    That was towards the end of 1920.
    The CHAIRMAN: This is an estimate which has come into course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1922, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman is now speaking of an earlier period.
    Captain BENN: I think the policy was defended on the ground of its success during the whole of the last financial year. I want to put this direct question to the right hon. Gentleman. Here is a very large Bill, one-sixth in excess of the Bill originally presented for this policy. When the right hon. Gentleman was incurring that Bill he told the House of Commons, every day when he was asked, that the policy was succeeding. Was the right hon. Gentleman misleading the House of Commons? Did he believe at that time that his policy was succeeding? And was it true that a large part of the country was becoming peaceable?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Yes, at that time.
    6.0 P.M.
    Captain BENN: Then how is it the large sum of money which should have been paid by the local councils was not handed over with the result that local government was brought to a standstill in Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman may have been right or he may have been wrong in the policy that he pursued, but he did not give the facts to the House of Commons. He was put up to defend day by day on the ground of success—not of morality, God forbid that—a policy which now, on the admission of every one of his leaders in the Government, was a failure and never could have succeeded except at an enormous expenditure of public money. It is on these grounds that I say the right hon. Gentleman misled the House of Commons and the country, and now we have to pay an enormous and unnecessary bill, which is not only a loss of money, but involves very great loss of credit and prestige to the people of this country, because, unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman cannot act alone. He acts as a representative of the Government and as a person who is supported by this House of Commons, and whatever discredit he incurs is not only discredit to himself but involves us in a common discredit with him.
    I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman some other questions. There is a bill for transport. Does this include the provision of the motor-ears which carried hostages through the streets in Ireland—Colonel Moore, for example? Is that a charge which we have to pay, and does the right hon. Gentleman now defend, in the light of what has happened, the practice in regard to carrying as fire screens officers like Colonel Moore, who had served this country in its wars abroad? I am appealing from Philip drunk to Philip sober. Let me take another case. These expenditures were expenditures for additional troops connected with the policy of reprisals. We have the well-known report of Judge Bodkin, which gives a list of awards amounting to £187,000—all, I think, in County Clare alone, but I am not sure. That is on the authority, uneontradicted, of a judicial officer, and it is a list of awards in respect of criminal injuries found to have been committed by armed forces of the Crown—the people for whom we are paying to-day. Does the

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    right hon. Gentleman feel inclined to defend that policy to-day? Does he say it succeeded, or has produced any good result, or anything except shame? There is an account for petrol. Was this the petrol that was used by the right hon. Gentleman's own men to burn Cork? I say that it was the right hon. Gentleman's own troops who assisted in the burning of Cork. He dare not deny that. He is in the position of other persons who were to have been cross-examined before inquests and inquiries—he dare not go into the box. He knows perfectly well that in the archives of Dublin Castle—if they were not burnt before he vacated that fortress—there is a report on the Cork burnings, and he knows he is afraid to produce it in the House of Commons. That might throw some light on the expenditure of an additional £1,200,000 which is to be sweated out of the pockets of the British taxpayer. These are some of the questions of principle which arise on this Supplementary Estimate. The right hon. Gentleman comes for a small sum; he asks us to increase his powers; he tells us that he has succeeded; he now comes for a much larger sum, and his colleagues all explain that he has failed. In the meantime he has invoved this country in an administration than which for 100 years there has been none more shameful in the history of the British Empire. What is he going to say to that? Is he going to disavow the past? Is he going to publish the Strickland Report? Is he going to give us some information—because we are entitled to some information before this Estimate receives the approval of the Committee of Supply?
    Viscount WOLMER: I rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman some questions arising out of his statement and the Estimate which is now before the Committee. It is a remarkable thing—
    Mr. J. JONES: It is remarkable. Some of us have been sitting here all the afternoon, and you have only just come in.
    Viscount WOLMER: The hon. Member is wrong; I was here a long time before he came in. It is a remarkable thing that on this Estimate the right hon. Gentleman should be criticised from two entirely different points of view, because they cover a period during which the Government has completely revolutionised its
    1596
    policy. I intend to direct my criticisms to the latter half of the Government's policy, and not to that period to which the hon. and gallant Member Who has just sat down has been alluding. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what notice was given to the Auxiliaries of the Royal Irish Constabulary who have now been dismissed. An hon. Member who spoke a little earlier gave some extraordinary instances of the way in which these men have been treated. I do not care in what part of the House hon. Members may sit, I think everyone must agree that those who made a contract with the Government in order to assist the Government to carry out its policy, are entitled to have that contract respected by the Government. Whether you approve or not of the enrolment of the Black-and-Tans, as they were called, that is a matter upon which we can criticise the Government. That these men should be dealt with fairly and squarely if they have entered into a contract with the Government, is a matter about which, I imagine, there will be no dispute from any quarter of the House. The right hon. Gentleman is fond of asking hon. Members to give him specific instances of hardship which have occurred under his administration. He has been given a number of specific instances, and I sincerely hope that he will reply with regard to cases like that of Major Green which have been mentioned this afternoon, and will deal with them as he has invariably promised he would deal with cases which were brought to his attention. After all, you have to remember that these men have been discharged and turned adrift at the very depth of the slump in employment. They could not possibly have been discharged at a more difficult time for them, and I want to know what sort of arrangements have been made by the Government in order to provide for these men who served them through one of the most difficult and critical periods in their history. The right hon. Gentleman himself has borne the most eloquent testimony to these men's gallantry and bravery and loyalty. They have now been turned adrift owing to a change of policy on the part of the Government, and I ask him to satisfy the Committee that the Government have behaved to these men in the spirit in which they served the Government. I do not think that mere discharge in any way meets the case. The right hon. Gentle-

    1597
    man has told us that these Auxiliaries were entitled to no pension. That is no doubt the case, but I should like to be satisfied that the Government have taken or intend to take steps to try to see these men through the difficult period that must now be lying before them. Has the right Gentleman done anything, and do the Government intend to do anything, to secure employment for them, to help them get employment in other Government Departments, or in some way to set them out in life. It would have been easy for many of them to get employment a year or eighteen months ago, but, instead, they elected to serve the right hon. Gentleman, and now they are being turned adrift at a time when in many cases it is practically impossible for them to get employment.
    Another question is with regard to the pensions of the Royal Irish Constabulary. These men, in the normal course of events, could have looked forward to a full term of employment, and then to retiring on a pension on which they could live. What is the position of a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary who has served, say, for ten years, and now finds himself pensioned off? Is the pension that the right hon. Gentleman is giving him one on which a man can live, and, if not, what steps are the Government taking to assist him in getting other employment? The Committee has always to remember that these men who have served in the Royal Irish Constabulary are in many eases marked men in their own localities, and no one there will dare to employ them. In spite of the appeal which the right hon. Gentleman has made this afternoon, he must know that in many cases it will be impossible for them to get employment in their own localities, and the Government's duty to them is not by any means discharged if it merely turns them off with a few years added to their pension, as provided in the Act of 1920. These men have stood by the Government through the terrible period of last year, and it is for the Government to see that they are not let down now. In the statement before the Committee there are some extraordinary discrepancies with regard to these pensions, which I confess I have been unable to understand. On page 31, there is an item for:
    "Pension to the widow of a sergeant killed in error by Crown forces of £82 6s. 8d., and
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    allowances to his six children of £82 6s. 8d. in all."
    I take it that that is not £164, but that that £82 covers the pension to the widow of the sergeant and his six children. The wording is very strange. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman can tell me whether I am correct, but, as I read it, the sum of £82 6s. 8d. covers the entire pension allowed to the widow of this unfortunate sergeant and her six children. That is about 30s. a week, on which a woman and six children have got to live. If they had been unemployed in Poplar they would have been getting more than double that sum, and I venture to say that it is a totally inadequate pension for a woman with six children, whose husband was killed in the service of the Crown. On 30s. a week it is perfectly impossible for a woman to live decently with six children dependent upon her. In the next paragraph there is:
    "Pension to the widow of a sergeant killed in like circumstances of £80 3s. 4d., and allowance to the child of £16 0s. 8d. per annum."
    As I understand that, this unfortunate widow is getting £80 3s. 4d. for herself and £16 0s. 8d. in respect of her child. That is to say, a widow with one child is getting £96 4s., and a widow with six children is getting £80 0s. 4d. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman could explain the basis on which that calculation is arrived at, because on the face of it there appears to be an extraordinary discrepancy between those two amounts.
    The right hon. Baronet told us that these unfortunate widows of men of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were murdered received a pension of two-thirds of their husband's pay. Does that pension also extend to other dependants of the murdered men? For instance, supposing the murdered man was the sole supporter of a widowed mother, would she be entitled to a pension in respect of him? Is there any allowance in respect of children? How long are these pensions for? Are they for life? These are questions which I think ought to be answered. Consider the position in which these wretched women find themselves. A large part of their husbands' time was spent in barracks, in which their board and lodging was provided by the Government, and in many cases a large portion of their pay was available for their wives and families. One day a man is mur-

    1599
    dered, and his widow is asked to accept two-thirds of her husband's pay. I really do not think that is adequate. Why should she lose a third of her livelihood because her husband has been murdered? I really think there is need for greater generosity in the way the humbler servants of the Government have been treated over this Irish business. Then there are some questions I should like to ask in regard to the treatment of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the auxiliaries. The right hon. Gentleman has paid eloquent tribute to their services, but I think the country will require a little more than lip service. The Government are fully entitled to revolutionise their policy in Ireland if they think fit, and if they can command the consent of the country to doing so, but they must not leave humble men in the cart, and it is up to them to see that no one of the servants who served them so devotedly a year ago is now penalised as a result of the Government's policy.
    Then there are some questions I should like to ask in regard to the extraordinary transactions which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, but did not really explain, under which Government motorcars were sold on the instalment system to members of the Auxiliary Royal Irish Constabulary for use on Government work. If these motor-cars were required for Government purposes, why were they not supplied to the officers themselves? If they were not required for Government purposes, what right has the Government to sell them on easy terms to anybody? What happened if these cars, while being used for Government work, were injured or damaged? Supposing a Sinn Fein bullet penetrated the tyre of one, what happened? Would the Government supply a new part? Would they repair the car, or did the officer have to do it, and what is the position now? These officers have paid a certain proportion of the instalments for these cars. Do they belong to the officers or to the Government? And what is going to happen now that the Government have stopped the officers' pay? How are they to go on paying the instalments? The officer has got the motor-car, but it is of no use to him, because he has not the money to keep it up. Is he entitled to sell it, and what steps does the Government propose to take if he has done so?
    1600
    Is the Government going to sue him for the return of the car, or does it propose to hand back the instalments which he has paid, together with interest? It is the most amazing transaction that has ever been undertaken by a Government Department and brought to light in this House. What sort of cars were these? Did the Government make a profit out of them? Did they come from the Slough Depot? Was the Government using one financial enterprise in order to launch another one, or did the Government buy new cars and sell them to these officers on the instalment principle? The right hon. Baronet was heckled on the subject, but he did nothing but smile blandly on the four or five hon. Members who were pressing him and on the empty benches which surrounded him. Was it intended that the Government should make a profit out of this transaction or did they intend to make a loss, and is it that loss that we are called upon to pay now? I really think a little further explanation is required on this point, not because the sum of money involved is very large, but because the principle is such a new one.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Coalition motor cars.
    Viscount WOLMER: It is certainly State trading. I have had occasion to protest about Government trading in another matter, but this appears to be a new branch of Government trading, and I should like to see the profit and loss account of the transaction audited and explained. I do not think this Committee ought to allow a transaction of this extraordinary sort to pass unchallenged. There is another item on which I should like to put some further questions than those which have already been put. I refer to Item R—Appropriations-in-Aid, £196,000. That, I understand, is money which is owing to the Government by the Irish county councils but which the Government has no hope of recovering. It is really a bad debt which the Government is writing off. Why has not this item been put in the balance of the account which the Government is going to settle up with Mr. Michael Collins?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: That is exactly what is coming.
    Viscount WOLMER: Then why have we to vote it now?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is essential that it should be voted now.
    Viscount WOLMER: The right hon. Baronet is going to reclaim it from the Provisional Government?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: This and a great number of other items will be taken into account in the general balance struck between the Provisional Government and our own Government, just as there are many items which will strike a balance between the Northern Government and the British Government.
    Viscount WOLMER: We understand that this is not money which will ultimately be paid for by the British taxpayer?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I hope not.
    Viscount WOLMER: Meanwhile, the endorsement of the British taxpayer is required. I thank the right hon. Baronet very much for his explanation.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: The Noble Lord was very solicitous for the future of the men of the Auxiliary who are being disbanded, and suggested that something mighb be done with regard to finding situations for them. That is just the plea that has been put up from these benches on many occasions with regard to ex-service men, and the only reply we have received from the Government is emigration, and that is probably the reply which will be furnished to the Noble Lord. The point I want to raise an this Vote is a rather curious one. We have been told that there is an allowance of £233 being added to the pension of £1,233 of a retired inspector, and the reason given by the right hon. Baronet was that this man had occupied a very difficult position, which was bound to have considerable strain upon him and in which he incurred a great many dangers. Further down, under the same heading, I find an allowance to the motherless children of a constable, who had been killed, £15 each. It seems rather remarkable that one man should receive £233, in addition to a pension already received of £1,233, and two children, whose father not only had to undergo the worry and the strain of night duty and day duty, but actually lost his life, have to be brought up on £15 a year each until they are 16 years of age, whereas the £233, additional to the pension of £1,233, is to go on until this retired inspector dies. In this case, as in every case, it is the common mem-
    1602
    ber of the force and his dependants who come off the worst. It is a scandal that this Government should ask, and expect, that two orphans can be brought up on £15 a year, and that that is the value they place upon the potential manhood and womanhood of this country, while a man who has his life, and who did not have any more risk to run than the parent of these two children, is to receive £233 extra for so-called additional risk.
    Mr. DEVLIN: That is not the reason why he got it.
    Mr. MACLEAN: We must take the puzzles that are given to us in this Supplementary Estimate and try to analyse them as best we can. Under the heading of "Incidental Expenses," the right hon. Gentleman told us that £6,000 of the £66,000 were for motor cars, which were being sold upon the hire system to the officers of the Auxiliary Force. Why does it appear under "Incidental Expenses"? There is an item, "Transport Service," which we are told relates to the provision for additional vehicles, tyres, etc. One would imagine that anything pertaining to motor cars would have come under the heading "Transport Service." Apparently with the idea of concealing things, the hire purchase system has been hidden away under the heading of "Incidental Expenses." If there had not been questions about it the item would have slipped through without anyone knowing that there was a hire purchase department in connection with the Irish Office. I do not know whether in regard to the disposal of clothing and barrack furniture there is also a department for the sale of the goods on the hire purchase system. There is an item relating to bedding, furniture, etc., for additional men, miscellaneous barrack supply, and increased clothing, etc. These items amount to £20,000 and £39,000 respectively. Seeing that the force has been depleted, a lot of the barrack furniture will be superfluous. Has the right hon. Gentleman adopted a hire purchase furnishing system in order to enable some of the people whose houses were burned in Cork to refurnish with some of the barrack furniture? Or is he going to donate some of the furniture to those people whose homes were bereft of furniture because of the action of Government troops in Cork and other parts of the

    1603
    country? Questions have been asked whether any of the petrol provided for was used in the outrages committed in Ireland, but we have never received any satisfactory reply. The wonder to me is that the Government are not putting forward further claims with regard to these burnings, and the expenses of the troops there.
    The time has arrived when there is likely to be peace in Ireland, and we hope it will continue, and that there will be no necessity for a Vote of any additional Supply for Ireland from this country, or the sending of any military or police force from this country to Ireland. We look forward to the happy days which the Chief Secretary for Ireland has assured us during the last two years were coming in a week or two. We are looking forward to them, at any rate, in the next few months. We trust that his hopes will be realised with regard to getting back certain sums which he is losing under the Appropriation-in-Aid, and that the money will not be lost to the Treasury. In any case, the whole Supplementary Estimate is a condemnation of the policy of the Government in Ireland. The very fact that they have to come forward and ask for such a large additional Supplementary Estimate is a condemnation of the right hon. Gentleman's policy in Ireland, and of those who were associated with him in that policy. The whole treatment of Ireland and the large inducements which were offered to men to go over there, coupled with the hiding of things that were done by some of those men in their excitement, are reasons why the Government have to come before the House now for this large additional sum. I hope some hon. Member will move a larger reduction than the £5 reduction which has been moved, and that we may have a chance of going to a vote upon it, and of showing to the Government that we reprobate the policy which they have adopted. This may be the last occasion we shall have an opportunity of doing so, and I hope we shall decline to vote money required to back up such a policy.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: I rise to deal with two points concerned with the provision for disbandment under Subhead "Q." What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do in the way of
    1604
    paying up quickly the sums to which the discharged officers of the Auxiliary division are now entitled? I understand that so far it has been arranged that these liabilities should be dealt with by the 31st March. I urge upon the right hon. Gentleman that he should give sympathetic treatment in those cases, and deal promptly with the matter, because promptness of payment means the whole difference between unemployment and work in a large number of cases. The kind of case brought to one's notice is that of an officer who has an offer of work on a ranch in Mexico If he has to be kept hanging about for his money, probably he loses the appointment, and in any case he spends a great deal of his resources waiting for his money, which would have been spent to a far better purpose if he could have taken his passage and gone out at once. Seeing the difficulty that many of these men will have in getting employment, I do urge the right hon. Gentleman to use the provision for disbandment in the promptest way he can, realising that he gives twice who, in this matter, gives quickly.
    With respect to the arrangement for compensation which has been offered to the Auxiliary Division and the Royal Irish Constabulary, I am afraid that the terms are less generous than the terms to which the Royal Irish Constabulary were entitled under the Act which this House passed two years ago. Under the Act of 1920 the Irish members of the Royal Irish Constabulary were to get 12 years added to their service for the purpose of computing pensions, and six years' notice, because it remained a reserve service for six years. It is laid down in the Treaty that they are not to get any less favourable terms. The Chief Secretary has offered them 12 years, but 12 years now is nothing like so favourale for them as 12 years, with six years' notice, because these men cannot in a moment find other employment. Under the old arrangement they had six years in which to turn round and make provision for their livelihood by the time their engagement came to an end. I urge upon the right hon. Gentleman that he should give the men compensation for disturbance. Owing to their devoted service, they have got into very bad odour with some of those who will be enabled to persecute them if they stay in their present neighbourhood. In many cases the men are prevented from living in

    1605
    Ireland, and it is only reasonable that they should get a lump sum to enable them to remove their families from Ireland and to tide them over the difficult period during which they are looking for work. I believe they have put forward alternative proposals, very reasonable proposals, for a lump sum much less than that they would have got under the arrangement of the 1920 Act with six years' notice. They have put forward an alternative offer that for two years they should get their pension made up to full pay, to enable them to meet the heavy cost which, through no fault of their own, has been thrown upon them.
    These men are being treated exactly on the same lines in regard to adding the twelve years as the emergency men who were brought over for a purely military purpose. They have a far better case for favourable treatment than the emergency men who did not uproot their families and plant them in Ireland. There is a strong case for giving better terms to these men who were in the old force, and who will have to face very heavy expense. The emergency men have not to worry about their families; they never expected to get provision for the whole of their lifetime in regard to employment. If such terms have been offered to and are fair to the British recruits, they are far too little for the Irishmen, who are being thrown out of work. In view of the sympathetic references, which which I am sure the House strongly sympathises, made by the Chief Secretary in dealing with the constabulary generally—the finest armed force we have within the British Empire—I hope he will reconsider this matter, and turn his sympathy into something more effective than words. I am afraid that if he leaves the matter as it is, we shall be open to the reproach that we have thrown these men aside, left them in a state of great difficulty in regard to finding employment, and have not given them sufficiently good terms to tide them over the hard times that must elapse before they are able to place themselves in other occupations.
    Sir G. COLLINS: The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken has been dealing with the case of those men who have served for a short time in Ireland.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: No, the men who spent all their lives in Ireland.
    Sir G. COLLINS: When the Government have settled these claims it will mean a very heavy pension bill which the taxpayers of this country will be forced to pay, as the result of the right hon. Gentleman's policy during the last 12 months. In his opening speech the right hon. Gentleman referred to the winding up of this service. He may be winding up the activities of the Irish Constabulary in Ireland, but he has placed on the shoulders of the British taxpayer, according to the Supplementary Estimate, a yearly burden of £849,000. That is a large increase on the original Estimate presented early in the year, and a still larger increase on the Estimate presented in this House last year. This particular Supplementary Estimate is one of the 25 which the Government are bringing before the House during the present financial year. It is true that the amount, £1,500,000, is a small one for the present Government to ask the House to pass, but this figure is part of the £100,000,000 odd which the Government have asked or are asking the House of Commons to pass by way of Supplementary Estimates this year.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer has reminded the House of Commons that he has saved £40,000,000, but I would remind the Committee that for every pound saved this year the Government are asking the House of Commons to find an extra £2 10s. This Supplementary Estimate brings the total cost of the Irish Constabulary forces to £8,500,000. Compare this figure with the original Estimate for last year of £3,500,000. The policy of the right hon. Gentleman has involved the additional burden of £5,000,000 this year. I had hoped that when he was asking the House of Commons for this very large sum of money he would have told the Committee the total cost of his policy in Ireland during the present financial year, not only the cost of the Royal Irish Constabulary force but the extra burden placed on the nation through damage to property and through the cost of the military and naval forces. The Committee, in considering this Estimate, would then be able to look at the Estimate as a whole and take note of the fact that the £1,500,000 which is asked for this afternoon is only a small part of the very heavy burden which the policy of His

    1607
    Majesty's Government has placed on the taxpayers this year.
    On the question of pensions, I would ask whether the pensions to the Royal Irish Constabulary are based on the War bonus? Are the pensions of individuals retiring from the Royal Irish Constabulary during the present year based on the War bonus under the same absurd system as is applied to individuals retiring from the Civil Service of this country? To ask the Committee to find money to-day to pay in perpetuity, to persons retiring from the Royal Irish Constabulary, pensions based upon a transitory war allowance, granted for a temporary and specific purpose, is grossly unfair to every taxpayer in this country. My hon. Friends who were associated with me raised this subject last week in Debate. We will return to the subject again, but I think that the Committee are entitled to a definite answer on this specific point which I put to the right hon. Gentleman—are these pensions based on the temporary War bonus which His Majesty's Government have granted to a very large number of those who are serving the State? In the detailed statement of the Chief Secretary it was announced that there was a large increase in the pay which, he informed the Committee, is due to the increased number of the force. How many of the additional number were enlisted in the Royal Irish Constabulary, because that has a direct bearing upon the Bill for pensions which the British taxpayer will be forced to pay in future years.
    Then the right hon. Gentleman gave a detailed estimate of the £280,000 for arms, ammunition, equipment, etc. Were fresh contracts made or fresh purchases made to provide these particular articles this year, or did the right hon. Gentleman draw on the War Office for the supply of these things? Did he invite factories to make additional machine guns, ammunition and arms? He referred in his speech to the word "purchases." Therefore I infer that fresh contracts have been entered into for these particular items. If contracts were made and fresh purchases were made, I would suggest it was a great waste of public money for, according to the Geddes Report, the policy of His Majesty's Government is that the War Office are entitled to keep four years' stock of their military requirements
    1608
    Therefore there is a considerable store of arms, ammunition, lorries and tyres in the possession of the War Office. Did the Chief Secretary incur new expenditure for these things or draw on the large store in possession of the War Office? Reference has been made by several hon. Members to the pension granted to the Inspector-General. May I remind the Committee that last year pensions were granted to only six inspector-generals, deputy and assistant inspector-generals. To-day, instead of six there are a dozen drawing pensions. Was it necessary for this distinguished officer to be retired? We have before us the clear result of the policy of the Government in the cost of millions of pounds which has been imposed upon the taxpayer. The public will take notice that the Government have been reckless in their expenditure, and have not duly safeguarded the interests of the taxpayer in the administration of public money.
    Sir REMNANT: I desire to refer for a moment to what has been said by the Chief Secretary in reference to this great force, the Royal Irish Constabulary. No praise could be too great for these men who, during the distressful times through which they have passed during the last few years, have shown great courage and great loyalty, not only to the Government of this country, but to everybody in Ireland as well. I do not propose to follow the last speaker, who seemed anxious to change this Debate from a consideration of Supplementary Estimates for the Royal Irish Constabulary into a political attack on his opponent, which is not suitable to the present occasion. The question of the police force, whether in Ireland or England, to my mind, does not lend itself to the jeering or the laughter with which it is sometimes greeted. It is a very serious question. In dealing with these Supplementary Estimates, if I say anything at all about them, it would be that the police pensions and allowances are hardly generous enough.
    I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has in these Estimates considered the question of any allowance for those men, who have been retired, to cover the cost of moving their homes and all they can from Southern Ireland where, there can be no question about it, they are not popular members of the community? Judging from the letters

    1609
    one gets from friends in Ireland and from the police, it is pretty certain that members of the Royal Irish Constabulary are marked men. However well intentioned, the leaders of the new Government of Southern Ireland will not be able to protect these men who have done their duty in recent years, and their great anxiety will be, on retirement, to get away from their present locations. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman in the Supplementary Estimates has included any allowance for men who have removed their homes, and who are being retired through no fault of their own. In winding up the Royal Irish Constabulary in Ireland has the right hon. Gentleman given any attention, as he promised a deputation from Ireland which waited on him that he would do, to the hard lot of the pensioners before the 1st April, 1919? Their lot in Ireland, where they are practically cut off from all relations with their neighbours, where they are boycotted and subject to other forms of ill-treatment, is a particularly hard one, and their pensions are extremely low, so low that the right hon. Gentleman, judging from what he has said in the past, cannot be in agreement with the scale.
    7.0 P.M.
    He told the deputations from Ireland, which waited on him, that he sympathised deeply with them, and he promised to do all he could with the Cabinet in order to get their grievances redressed. So far nothing has come of it. I appeal to him as to whether this is not the proper occasion when I might review the whole circumstances of the pensions of all members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, so that in making up his winding-up order for that force he will leave them in a condition of contentment instead of resentment, in which a large number of them are at the present moment. With regard to the old pre-War pensions, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been drawn to a fund called the Constabulary Force Fund Benefit Branch, which was inaugurated in 1836 to provide gratuities to widows, and for other purposes? That money was compulsorily subscribed by members of the serving forces. Considering that that money concerns only the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were serving in 1833, and that it amounted in
    1610
    December, 1920, to £280,000, and seeing that the living subscribers to-day—they cannot be added to—number 4,397, I would ask if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to have that money divided amongst the subscribers and contributors to the fund, and by so doing ease in some small way the lot of the pre-War pensioners in the Royal Irish Constabulary? I hope, when he replies, that he will refer to that subject and he will see what can be done. The Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) said that we did not want lip service. I do not believe the Chief Secretary believes in lip service; I think he is genuinely sympathetic towards the Royal Irish Constabulary. I am confident that he will accept my appeal to him in the same spirit as it is made, and that he will do his best to help a force the men of which have been none too generously treated in the past considering all that they have done, and who, in view of the terms of the contract under which they were engaged, are entitled to better benefits than they have received. I do not know who drew up the terms upon which the Royal Irish Constabulary were to be retired, or whether the men themselves had any chance of putting their case before the right hon. Gentleman. Certain I am that a great many grievances remained; certain I am that a great many points have not been considered by him or anybody else on behalf of the Irish Government. I would appeal to him, while he is winding up the Royal Irish Constabulary, before this matter is finally settled, to appoint a small Committee upon which the men should be represented as well as others. Such a Committee will help him to arrive at a decision on all these matters which will be beneficial to the force and satisfactory to all concerned.
    Mr. MOSLEY: I should like to address to the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions of detail arising out of these Estimates prior to saying a few words on the topic raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). In Item B, the question of pay, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what exactly he meant by saying that an agreement had been signed between the representatives of the men, as I understand, and the Government? Could he give us a history of the dispute which, we under-

    1611
    stand, arose in connection with the arrears of pay with the Auxiliary Division? Could he also inform us whether the Press reports were true which stated that on their disbandment some of the men were so dissatisfied that they seized the ship at Holyhead from which they were being disembarked, and held that ship until their grievances in regard to pay had been considered by the Government and discharged to their satisfaction? I saw a report in the Press of such an incident, but I have never heard any official confirmation of any kind. I should be much obliged if, when the right hon. Gentleman comes to reply, he will inform us whether or not those reports were true and, if they were correct, what is the true story of that remarkable occurrence?
    Coming to Item G—arms and ammunition, etc.—we find the enormous increase, over the original Estimate, of £280,000. The original Estimate was a little over £70,000. The right hon. Gentleman to-day informed us that part of this great increase was due to a matter of accounting with the War Office; that certain stores which they had handed over for use in Ireland were not included in the original Estimate. Perhaps he will tell us why it could not have been stated in the original Estimate that these stores would have to be paid for by the Irish Office, and why it could not have been included in that first Estimate? The remarkable transaction under heading N, the question of the motors, has already been dealt with at some length in this Debate. I will not labour it at this stage, but I will ask the hon. Gentleman who represents the Treasury, and who was not present when the question was raised before, whether the Treasury accorded its assent to this novelty in administration? So far as I know there is no precedent whatsoever for this transaction. The transaction is this: under heading N we were informed that the Irish Office had bought a certain number of motor cars, and had sold those motor cars to their own officers under the instalment system. The officers bought the motor cars from the Irish Office by instalments. May I ask the hon. Gentleman representing the Treasury if the Treasury sanctioned this new departure in administration, and, if so, on
    1612
    what ground they gave their assent to so grave a breach of all administrative precedent?
    I should like to address one question to the Chief Secretary under Item O. There we have an addition of £205,000 for the provision for additional vehicles. Have those vehicles been employed to carry cadets and police in Ireland from one spot to another? If so, were those lorries or vehicles provided with the armoured shields which were lacking from those originally supplied to the troops in Ireland? It is within the recollection of the Committee that it was discovered, from an answer obtained from the right hon. Gentleman in this House, that over 90 successful ambushes of troops and police travelling in these lorries in Ireland had taken place before the elementary precaution was adopted of providing them with armoured shields to protect the men from the bullets of their assailants. We were told in those days that police and troops were dispatched along those narrow and confined lanes in Ireland which are overshadowed, as everyone who knows the country is aware, by high banks entirely obscuring any possible assailant from the vision or retaliation of the men in the lorries. The troops, in driving along such lanes, were entirely exposed to the attack of any men who might wait in ambush, and over 90 successful attacks were made, according to the answer elicited in this House, before the right hon. Gentleman took the elementary precaution of providing these lorries with armoured shields. Will he inform us whether, in regard to the lorries referred to in the present Estimate, he was less remiss in his obvious duty to these men than he was on a former occasion?
    There is an item for petrol under heading O. The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his remarks, said that the officers who bought the cars in this exceedingly dubious transaction to which I have referred were not only permitted these amenities for the purchase of the cars, but were actually allowed the petrol for running the cars without having bought it. Were they allowed this petrol free of any check or consideration? How does the right hon. Gentleman know that the petrol was employed for the purpose of their duty rather than for the purpose of their pleasure? What check was kept

    1613
    on the petrol? In what way did he safeguard the money which was entrusted to his care? Under heading P—compensation for damage or injury—I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how he accounts for the remarkable increase in the expenditure over the original Estimate? There is an increase of 150 per cent. in the charges incurred, as I understand it, for running over people. Were these accidents 150 per cent. higher during this period in Ireland than were estimated for, with great prevision, at the beginning of the year? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can enlighten us upon this great increase in the casualty list.
    Under heading Q, I should like to address another question to the hon. Gentleman who represents the Treasury. Here we find an increase of something like £200, over and above that to which he was entitled by the statutory allowance, in a pension to an Inspector-General who retired. May I ask the hon. Gentleman representing the Treasury whether the Treasury accorded their assent to the raising of the pension of this Inspector-General over and above the statutory rate? May I also ask the Secretary for Ireland on what administrative principle and upon what principle of justice he recommends to the Committee the raising of this individual pension of an Inspector-General over and above that which is normally offered to a man of his category and over and above the pro rata pension which is accorded to men in a lesser category? I understand he justifies it on the ground of the special danger and hardship of this officer's position. Was his position any more dangerous or arduous than that of his subordinates? Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that rather a greater argument in favour of increasing the pensions of men who fought in France than of increasing the pension of a high officer in Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman is always comparing the position of police and troops in Ireland with the position of those who fought in France during the Great War. Far be it from me to depreciate for one moment the hardships or dangers of those who fought in Ireland, but I submit that it is quite incomparable with those of the men who fought in France. The men in Ireland were subjected to great danger and hardships. They underwent nerve-racking experiences, but those were
    1614
    nothing compared with what was endured by the men who fought in France. After all, what did the men in Ireland have to undergo? They were subjected to persistent sniping, that is what it means, but the men in France were subjected to drum tire and heavy bombardment week in and week out. As anybody knows who has undergone both experiences, these experiences in Ireland were quite incomparable with the danger and strain on the men in France. If there is any case for increasing the pensions of men in high positions or in lesser positions who fought in Ireland, there is a far greater case for increasing the pensions of men who fought in France. In the present state of the national finances, it is our duty to protest against increases of pensions in a quarter deserving, I admit, but not nearly so deserving as other quarters to which we may direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention. We are now asked to foot the bill for the failure of Government. [Interruption.] I know, of course, that it is unpleasant for hon. Members who supported the Government throughout the application of a policy which has failed, and for which they now have to pay, to have their attention directed to the egregious folly of that policy, but there are many unpleasant things of that nature which we have to undergo, and I make no apology for directing the attention of the Committee to the failure of the policy which the Government so long supported. We have now to foot the bill for a policy advocated from the Treasury Bench, supported from the Benches behind, and consistently opposed from these Benches.
    Mr. D. HERBERT: You were sitting over here then.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Oh, no, I was not. The hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken. I departed from those benches at the very beginning, at the initiation of that policy, and I have fought it ever since, so I think I am immune from that criticism. [Interruption.] Let me inform hon. Members that I was not elected to support either the bankruptcy of this country or the massacre of women and children. [Interruption.] My action has been taken with the full approval and support of the association that nominated me for election and with the full approval and support—
    Mr. D. HERBERT: Ask your constituents.
    Mr. MOSLEY: I have.
    Mr. DEVLIN: On a point of Order. Are dummy Members entitled to howl down a Member who can speak?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall): They are not entitled to do so, any more than the hon. Member is entitled to put that point to me.
    Mr. MOSLEY: I have no objection to the interruptions of hon. Gentlemen. Some of their utterances in these Debates are of necessity confined to the monosyllabic variety. They find it more convenient to interrupt their opponents and to cheer their leaders than to take part in reasoned discussion. Their leaders have no further use for them. That is why they were elected to this House. That is their business, and in due course they will all be rewarded, as I observe their more successful fellows have already been rewarded. Let us make no complaint of that.
    If I may turn to the subject under discussion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I did not seek those diversions. We are here to discuss the failure of a policy. We are footing the bill for a policy. This matter has been opened up at great length by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). I shall not proceed so far in the discussion of it as he did, and perhaps the Postmaster-General is not so good a judge of what is in order in this matter as the Chairman of Ways and Means, who permitted him to proceed with that discussion. We are footing the bill for the failure in Ireland of the administration of the Chief Secretary. We may ask at this period what were the objects of that policy and what were ite results. The object was very clearly expressed—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is exactly what the hon. Member would not be entitled to discuss—the object of a policy. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) very skilfully dealt with the Supplementary Estimates to show from his point of view how the Supplementary Estimates were the result of a certain course on the part of the Government. We must be very careful not to go back on the general policy. If the hon. Member wante more scope he must apply the same methods.
    Mr. MOSLEY: I was merely going to submit to you that the money which is being spent under these Supplementary Estimates was spent in a way entirely detrimental to the interests of this country and of Ireland. I was going to point out that this money was in every conceivable way the purest waste, because the policy it was designed to support was reversed without achieving one of those objects which it set out to secure. If a policy is reversed without achieving its object, and the money under these Supplementary Estimates was poured down the drain of that failure, we are entitled to submit to the Committee that we shall refuse to vote this money. This money was spent in pursuance of a policy carried out for over a year, and we were informed almost weekly in this House that it was about to succeed. The Secretary of State for the Colonies told us that as sure as the sun rose to-morrow morning the murder gang would be broken up. A year later Lord Birkenhead was compelled to confess in the House of Lords "that the progress of the coercive attempts made by the Government have, as is well known, proved in a high degree disappointing." In other words, the whole of this money was poured down the gutter. We were told almost daily that the policy was going to succeed. For a year we were encouraged by the grandiloquent passages of the Chief Secretary as he flagellated that box in the fury of his eloquence. We were told that East, North, South and West the terror was corning to an end, and that the money which we are now asked to vote him, and which he then in prospect invited us to grant him was being well spent. As the hon. and gallant Member for Leith recalled, the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "Three quarters of Ireland, as the result of the measures we are taking, is as quiet and as peaceable as the county of Kent."
    At the end of the year the Lord Chancellor had to go down to the House of Lords and confess the ignoble failure of the Government's policy. If that is not waste, then what is waste? We are invited to discard services which are vital to the life of our country and imperative to its industrial recovery, and at this juncture the right hon. Gentleman comes down and asks for a large sum of money for a policy which was reversed with no results achieved. I am not condemning the morality of the Government.

    1617
    I am speaking of a question which the right hon. Gentleman understands, the question of expediency. I am pointing out to him that on the grounds of the lowest expediency this money was utterly wasted. He failed to achieve any one of the purposes he set out to achieve, and as an example of administrative inefficiency he stands unrivalled and, thank Heaven, unprecedented in the annals of this country. There was something to be said for Warren Hastings. He was successful. There is nothing to be said for a villain of the piece when he is an abject and dismal failure. That is something too ignoble even for the acclamation of the opportunist Government which we have in power. It is because he has been such a failure that the right hon. Gentleman is only permitted occasionally to advance to the Treasury Box and to read an answer to a question, while the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies has taken over his duties and his functions from his feeble and incompetent hands. We may commiserate with the Chief Secretary on the failure of his policy. We are presented with a Supplementary Estimate which asks for an enormous sum of money for a policy which, on the lowest ground of expediency and opportunism, the grounds which have animated this Government in relation to Ireland, and to every question which they face to-day, has failed dismally and abjectly. That is the position to which this Government has come. What was the effect of this money we are now asked to vote upon the state of crime and disorder in Ireland? What were the figures before this policy was introduced? In three years only fifty-seven—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not entitled to go into the question of the policy on crime and disorder in Ireland. The House has already voted a sum of £7,204,000, and we are now asked for a Supplementary Estimate of £1,270,000. I recognise this is a large sum. Hon. Members are entitled to discuss the expenditure of this supplementary sum, and not the question of policy, or the decision of the House when it voted the £7,000,000.
    Sir DONALD MACLEAN: On a point of Order. Is it not in order for an hon. Member on this Supplementary Estimate to direct the attention of the Committee to the circumstances when this additional sum was paid? As long as hon. Members
    1618
    confine themselves to those conditions, I submit they would be in order, and if my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) is, as I thought he was—I may not have been following him closely—confining his remarks to those months when these conditions obtained, I submit very respectfully that that is in order.
    The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his interpretation of what he thought the hon. Member for Harrow was saying. I have been following his speech for some time, and as far as the earlier part of the speech was concerned it was quite in order. But the question he is now discussing is going wide of the mark. I have allowed him a good deal of latitude. When a large sum like this is presented the Committee is entitled to discuss it fully, but it is not in order, in discussing a Supplementary Estimate, to refer back to the original Estimate and discuss it. That must be avoided. If I allowed one hon. Member to do so, then the whole original Estimate would come up for discussion.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Perhaps I was drawn, by the fact that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith discussed the subject for some time, into going rather further than I should have gone. The point I wished to make is this. There were 2,559 additional men employed for whom we are now asked to pay, and these men were employed in Ireland in a way which was detrimental to the interests both of that country and of this, and so far from restoring order in that country they actually aggravated the situation. That can be see from the figures I was about to read to the Committee. I was going to point out that three years prior to the employment of men in this capacity in Ireland, only 57 casualties occurred to the forces of the Crown in Ireland. In the first six months of the employment of men in this manner, 189 men were killed, and in the second six months in which these very men whose pay we are now asking for were there over 370 members of the forces of the Crown were killed in Ireland. We find instead of a steady decline in outrage in Ireland, as men in this special category were imported into Ireland, a progressive increase in crime as the repressive principles of the right hon. Gentleman grew in force and application. The employment of the measures and of the men in Ireland, for

    1619
    which we are now asked to pay, has piled up for this country a bill not only of money, but a bill in lives and a bill in honour. It is a bill which will have to be paid in years to come throughout our Dominions and throughout foreign countries, not only in the terms of cash or even in terms of human life, to which we are now asked to accord our assent in this Supplementary Estimate, but a bill which will for long be presented to this country in terms of honour and loss of national prestige. The right hon. Gentleman has dragged us through the mud, and he has brought us nowhere. We now have to pay the bill for an epoch in English history which will for long be a shame and a reproach to every Englishman.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I must confess, although I have listened to the whole of this Debate so far, that I am still uncertain why we have a Supplementary Estimate before us. What was it in March of 1921 which led the Government to assume that they were going to carry on on a sum of £7,204,000? What was it which made them think that was sufficient to see them through another year of what was then civil war? In March, 1921, things were as bad as they have ever been since and the Government were framing their Estimate on the then position of affairs. Why is it now necessary to present a Supplementary Estimate? Surely seeing that the truce was signed 3½ months after this original Estimate came into being, and that there was brought to an end the state of affairs which prevailed when the Estimate was prepared—surely then we should now be presented not with a Supplementary Estimate but an Appropriation-in-Aid, or something given back. You only have had 3½ months of your extravagant policy. Lord knows where we should be if you had had 12 months of it. It would not be £8,500,000, but somewhere in the neighbourhood of £20,000,000 which would have been wanted for the grand policy of this grand government in Ireland. There is this to be said for the Government, that although their finance may be thoroughly unsound, not having the same policy for long, it is bound to become sound before many months. We have a definite assurance from the right hon. Gentleman to-day that he is mopping up the last of the mess.
    1620
    It is a very nasty mess and we are glad to see the end of it and we hope it is the end of it. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman himself is quite the right person to do the liquidating. It seems to me that we ought to have here the proper liquidator, namely, the right hon. Gentleman who is going to take the Chief Secretary's shoes. I do not think it is a right thing, in business or in politics, for the general manager who has speculated and gone wrong; to do the liquidating. He is not the person for that. The Secretary of State for the Colonies should be here, but naturally he prefers to keep his fingers clear of the mess which is a very ugly mess.
    Many of us on this side of the Committee do not think it a subject for jest at all. There is no doubt about it that in one of the multifarious phases of this Government's existence they have dragged the honour of England in the mud in such a way as we are not likely to forget or to be allowed to forget by foreign countries. But the kaleidoscopic policy of the Government has this advantage, that they can be attacked from either side. We have now a very pretty example of the Government being between two fires. I tell them quite frankly and for their consolation, that it is quite impossible that we on this side of the House should go into the Lobby, even against the Government, in conjunction with the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher). We could not do it. They can have that Lobby to themselves. The party which I represent will take no part in voting for this Amendment, which calls for a reduction of £5 to protest against the policy of the Government "in this base and gross surrender to the murder gang in Ireland." We are not going to take part. in it, but as soon as that Amendment is disposed of, and I am inclined to think it will be disposed of without a Division, because our hon. Friends below the Gangway, the Die-hards, do not like showing up in the Lobby about dinner time—when it is disposed of, then we shall have an Amendment to reduce the sum of £1,474,000 in order to show in the simple Parliamentary way that we are not sharing the right hon. Gentleman's Monday head, that this is not a policy for which we are responsible and that neither the original Estimate nor the Supplementary Estimate had any

    1621
    sanction from this side of the House. Whether an Amendment is moved or not, we shall vote against this Supplementary Estimate as a protest against wasting our money on dishonourable work, so dishonourable, indeed, that the Government themselves have had to drop it, and take up another line of policy. There are just two items to which I wish to draw particular attention. The first is under heading B. It will be noticed there that the pay has risen by £371,000, and I understand that increase in pay, although the truce was signed 3½ months after the original Estimate, is due to the abnormally large retiring allowances given to the Auxiliary police. Is it really a fact that these people are getting retiring allowances of £250 each?
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: No, it is not a fact.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: We shall want to know what retiring allowance they are getting in order to compare with the retiring allowances given to men who fought through a real War and to see whether we are having fair play, not only to the auxiliary police in Ireland, but also to the officers who beat Germany.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: These men fought in the real War too, before the Irish War.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: They got their allowances for that. This is an additional allowance. We want to know what that allowance is and how it compares with the allowances given to similar ranks after five years of the most frightful war of history. I draw attention to another item under Head G, relating to arms, ammunition, etc. The Estimate has gone up from £70,000 to £350,000, and I understand—I do not know whether I am stating it correctly—that a great deal of this increase of £280,000 represents arms and ammunition that have been handed over to the Provisional Government in Ireland. I should like to know the valuation of those arms, and whether we have got anything for them. This seems to me to bear a horrible resemblance to the case in which we kept on supplying arms to the Soviet Government in Russia. We sent them to Denekin and Koltchak, who handed them over, either for cash or in retreat, to the Soviet Army. We armed and munitioned and clothed the Soviet Army; they appeared
    1622
    in British uniforms. Now, apparently, in Ireland we are spending £280,000 on additional rifles and munitions and handing them over to the Provisional Government. We did not get any money out of the Soviet Government, we did not get any money out of Denekin and Koltchak—we got no money at all for the things that we supplied to the people fighting in Russia. Are we going to get nothing for the arms and munitions we have supplied to the Provisional Government in Ireland? It would be some satisfaction to think we were going to get a little bit of this money back. We are told that there is to be "an equitable consideration." Let us have a little equitable consideration for the taxpayer in this matter. We should have an application of the Geddes Committee to this Supplementary Estimate and we should find that even the liquidation of the Irish bungle, although it could not be more extravagant for our prestige, might be a little less extravagant to our financial position in the world.
    Mr. MOLES: This is the first opportunity I have had of seeing the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) speaking from the Front Bench opposite, and I congratulate him upon the readiness with which he has assumed the Front Bench demeanour. He gamboled around that despatch box like a rhinoceros, and poked endless fun at the Chief Secretary, who did not seem to understand in the least what all the fun was about. I could not help being struck by some of the criticisms of the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley). At one stage he was denouncing the Chief Secretary and the policy of the Government, and at another he was denouncing him for not having protected the Constabulary. He seemed to have forgotten the fact that he came into this House on these benches, and that when he realised that there was no hope for him with this Government he thought he would take his chances with one that might result in something next time.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: That is a scandalous allegation. I did not start on those benches, and I will not have that scandalous allegation made.
    Mr. MOLES: The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is more than usually obtuse, and that is putting it high. I

    1623
    referred to the hon. Member for Harrow, not Hull. I am coming to Hull and Halifax in a minute. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull alleged that the Treasury Bench is never filled when he gets up. He has got the notion into his head that there ought always to be stationed at your right hand, Mr. Chairman, some watch dog on this Treasury Bench, and that the instant he gets up, this watch dog ought to go tearing out and off to Downing Street, thumping at the Prime Minister's door, and shouting, "For God's sake, come at once. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull is up, and the Empire is in deadly peril." He takes himself much too seriously, and, in truth, he might be quite flattered by having even the Chief Secretary on the bench opposite him to listen. I notice that the moment he gets up, his own colleagues all flee as if he had the plague and there was danger of infection. Only two or three at most sit there while he is up, and they are more notorious for somnolence than anything else, while he goes on with the "dreary drip of dilatory declamation," and they sit for all the world like two or three extinct volcanoes with never a flicker of flame on a single palid crest.—[Interruption.]—The hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) got his seat upon false pretences, and then would not fill it.
    Mr. DEVLIN: I have got two seats, and that is more than you have got. You got a job, and I did not.
    Mr. MOLES: Nobody would give you one, that is why; they would not get value for their money. I want to ask the Chief Secretary's attention for a moment to one or two of these items. There have been very strong representations made to him respecting delay in the payment of two large sums, one of them involving an amount of £9,000 and another of over £2,000 in respect of one item of £20,000 for clothing on these Estimates. I hope he will see to it that in these times, when it is difficult to carry on business and give such large credits, the Government will pay its own debts promptly. In regard to the question of pensions, there has been, I think, some obscurity. I do not quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman's explanation so far as it has gone, but it did not go quite far enough. I feel sure he must have had handed to him a copy of the document which reached some of
    1624
    us complaining of the treatment to which certain of these discharged men have been subjected. The document was issued on behalf and in the name of 400 ex-officers, who complain that they signed their contracts in June, 1921, engaging for a further period of service until 30th June. 1922, notwithstanding which these contracts were cancelled by the Government in 1921 without the consent of the other contracting parties. When the disbanding of the Division took place, no gratuity was offered to these men, but after a great struggle the Government agreed to complete all the contracts with the exception of that large number which I have described as entered into in June, 1921. A Government that expects faith kept with it ought to keep faith with those with whom it makes contracts. I submit that in this particular matter the Government has not acted fairly, justly, or in any ether way than most ungenerously towards these men who served them so well.
    The Constabulary Force Fund has already been alluded to in the Debate. It was a Fund created for a specific purpose, and the condition of some of those who are entitled to relief under that Fund is perfectly desperate at the moment. Repeated representations have been made to the right hon. Gentleman, deputations have waited upon him, and he must be fully conversant with the facts. I myself called his attention not so many months ago to one peculiarly pathetic case, the case of a man who served in the Constabulary for 30 years, was seized with an illness, the few pounds which he had managed to save were swept away, and the Government that he had served for 30 years allowed this old pensioner to die in a workhouse and to be put into a pauper's grave. It is a disgrace to the Government that that should have been allowed to happen. There are many other men whose condition is verging on that. I know of dozens of these cases, and I have called my right hon. Friend's attention to them. I am bound to say he has always evinced sympathy and, so far as lay in his power, has given them help, but it has not been sufficient. He is now engaged in winding up this splendid Force, and let him not leave to us a heritage of shame. I suppose hon. Members opposite would say there is enough else to be ashamed of without adding that. There are some of these old men and old women, their wives—with the cost of living as it

    1625
    is to-day, and surrounded by the circumstances that attend these men because of their service under the Crown—struggling to keep body and soul together on £52 a year, and before the Government will offer them 6d. of relief, they hold a kind of grand inquisition into their little private affairs; it humiliates and pains them to a degree, and the Government ought to discontinue it. They have given relief to every other form of pensioner, and they ought also to give it to these particular men. I urge the Chief Secretary, as he is to be the last of the Mohicans, the Chief Secretaries of Ireland, that before he quits office he will use his best efforts with the Treasury, and see to it that this long-standing scandal is put an end to.
    The question of the motors has been alluded to. I might ask the Chief Secretary this question, whether it was not a regulation of the Constabulary that all officers should provide themselves with horses. The changed and terrible conditions of duty brought about, as alleged, by the policy of the Government, put these men in positions of peculiar and special peril. Horses really only exposed them to danger, as they could not get from point to point with the necessary rapidity, and so the scheme was evolved of substituting motors for horses, and these men, all sadly underpaid, suddenly found themselves confronted by a demand to equip themselves with motors, without having any money with which to purchase them. The Government put forward the scheme of the Government buying the motors, and the officers paying for them on the instalment plan; and now that the Force has been brought to an end these men, who have no need for the motors, find themselves left with them on their hands and half the instalments paid. Where they do not feel disposed to pay up the remainder of the instalments, surely the Government should take the motors back off their hands at a valuation. These men, as the Chief Secretary must know, will have a tremendous struggle for months until the hatred and passions which have been evoked by the conflict which has now been brought to an end have subsided. In the meantime the problem of existence will be terrible, and it is not for the Government which they have so well served to add to their difficulties in any way. I hope the Chief Secretary will take that also into con-
    1626
    sideration. Lastly, I press upon him again that these old pensioners who have contributed for 30 years of their service into this Constabulary Force Fund, and who are now in perfectly desperate circumstances, ought to get some relief such as I have indicated.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The Debate has wandered over a wide field and has dealt exhaustively with the different items in the Estimates. I shall try to deal seriatim with every point raised, and I hope I shall be excused if I do not attempt to deal with the personal abuse which has been heaped on my shoulders. I have tried to do my duty under difficult circumstances, and have always carried with me the support of the great majority of my fellow Members. In reference to what has been said by the hon. and learned Member for York (Sir J. Butcher), the hon. and gallant Member for Finsbury (Lieut.-Colonel ArcherShee), and the hon. Member for Holborn (Sir J. Remnant), I should say that in the cases of pensioners who retired before 1st April, 1919, it is not possible for men who retired before that date to receive the improved terms granted under the Desborough Scheme. In this as in other matters the treatment of the Irish police is identical with that accorded to the police in Great Britain, but considerable alleviation, affecting, I believe, from 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. of these pensioners, was brought about by the Pensions (Increase) Act of 1920, which applied to these particular Irish policemen as well as to all other pensioners in the police service, and during the current year, I believe, some £90,000 has been or will be distributed to these particular pensioners under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920. Something has been done, at any rate, therefore, to alleviate the hard lot of these faithful servants. I regret that more has not been done, but, as the Debate has shown, one set of arguments is in favour of spending more money and another set of arguments is in favour of spending less money. The Government and every Member of it have done their best to consider both the individual claims and the overwhelming claims of the public purse.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that these pensioners who retired before 1st April, 1919, are in many cases, even with the increase under the Act of 1920, receiving only £1

    1627
    or 25s. a week at most, and will he consider in any final settlement of this question the extremely hard conditions under which they are living at the present moment?
    8.0 P.M.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I have the profoundest sympathy with these cases. With reference to the pensions arising out of the 1916 Rebellion, those pensioners only receive pensions at the rates current at the time they received their wounds. I do not know whether it will be possible to deal specially with this class, but I promise my hon. Friends I will consider that. With reference to the Pensions Order, it was not possible to deal with this Order until the final new scale had been granted to the police forces of Great Britain. The whole matter is held up because of the desire to secure agreement with the Representative Bodies of the Police in Ireland. In answer to many hon. Members, may I say that both Governments in Ireland have been supplied with rifles, ammunition, motor cars, and other equipment?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the respective numbers for each Government?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is impossible for me to do that, but they can be given if a question is put down.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not wish to press the right hon. Gentleman unduly, but I would suggest that the Vote should be withdrawn if details cannot be given as to the approximate value of the motors supplied to the. Northern and Southern Governments.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Pressure has come from the Northern Government to supply the necessary means to deal with disorder in that area, and naturally that must be considered. Two hundred rifles have already been supplied to the Provisional Government of Southern Ireland, together with a number of motor cars.
    Mr. DEVLIN: How many to the Northern Government?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I cannot say the exact number, but I should say it is a large number.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Is it not extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman should be so accurate in carrying the number given to the Southern Parliament, but not to the Northern?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The request is much larger from the Northern Government than from the Provisional Government. I regret I cannot give the exact numbers. The point raised is not the numbers, but whether anything was to be paid for them. To my mind, they must be taken into account in any final balance struck between the British Government and the two Governments of Ireland.
    Mr. MOLES: That is the condition of their being handed over.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Was there an agreement?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Certainly there was an agreement. They were to be taken over on valuation.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Was there an agreement in writing, and has the right hon. Gentleman seen it, or is this only what he supposes, or takes from the Irish Members?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: It is incorporated in messages which have passed between the respective Governments. It is the ordinary procedure. I take it that it is the duty of the British Government and of this House to support the Northern Government and the Provisional Government, so as to maintain order in their respective areas, and when we supply cars, rifles, or whatever they may be, they must be taken over at a valuation.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Has the valuation been made, and what is the amount of it?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The valuation has not been made, but the general principle is there, as was urged by the hon. and learned Member and other hon. Members. A point was raised by different Members in reference to the Appropriations-in-Aid. There is no doubt about it that in normal times there was a local rate made for extra police in various counties. We were unable to collect this local rate, owing to the disturbances in Ireland. The consequence is that we have the adverse balance of £196,000. This must also be taken into account in the valuation struck between this Government and the Provisional

    1629
    Government in Ireland. I am very sorry that a great number of Members have left the House after having made their speeches, and I am therefore unable to give them the explanations for which they asked. Some hon. Members raised a most important point in reference to the treatment of Auxiliaries and of the Royal Irish Constabulary generally. I want to clear that up. It is perfectly true that in May, 1921, instructions were issued by the Chief of Police that those cadets nearing the termination of their original contract should be permitted to re-engage for an additional 12 months, and the interpretation of this order by a subordinate officer was to the effect that anyone could have a further contract, no matter whether he was approaching the end of his contract or not. This was an unreasonable interpretation of the original instruction by the Chief of Police, because cadets, for example, who had served less than three months of their original contract made application. When the misapplication of the general instruction came to the notice of the Chief of Police, he immediately issued orders to confine the scope of re-engagements. Men were held to be approaching the termination of their original contract, only if they had served nine months. The Chief of Police therefore declined to confirm those contracts which did not come within the scope of this distinction.
    Major GLYN: The whole point seems to be that an interval took place, until the 10th October, before that correction was made, and in the meantime the men who had re-engaged had their names published in General Orders, after being witnessed by two persons. The case which I and my hon. Friends make is that if those men's names appeared in Orders, the Government should stick to their obligation, and pay those men according to contract.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I regret I cannot accept that view at all. I am informed that as soon as it came to the notice of the Chief of Police, he cancelled these contracts, and it is really unreasonable to ask the Government to spend tens of thousands of pounds, in addition to the great expense of winding up the Force, because of the blunder of a subordinate officer. I regret if any man has
    1630
    suffered individual hardship. I have only heard of one case of any individual suffering hardship.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Government could have kept these men to those contracts? Those men signed, and their names appeared in Orders, and it was not until two months after that the so-called blunder was rectified from headquarters. Those men might have been made to serve, if the trouble had gone on, for another year. Surely, then, the Government is not going to break faith.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The representative body of the Auxiliary Force signified its full acceptance of the terms in an agreement signed on the 18th January last, a copy of which I shall lay before the House. Nobody has greater regard for these gallant men than I have; nobody has so often supported them, and championed them. No one will get less than £70, some will get twice as much and some thrice as much, and I may say that if the Committee will approve the Vote, the quicker I can make all these payments to the members of that force. Part of the money I am asking for involves all the money due to those Auxiliaries.
    Major GLYN: There are cases of officers whom we know who have been, in the opinion of some of us, very hardly treated. Will the right hon. Gentleman promise to go into those individual cases? There are only now about 15 or 16.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Of course, I will most sympathetically inquire into the case of every public servant in Ireland, but I think, generally, these Auxiliaries have been treated very fairly, and, in addition to that, every effort will be made to see that they get employment somewhere, if it be possible in these difficult times to get employment. Let me clear a misconception in the mind of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). They are not going to be used in this country for dealing with unemployment, or anything of that kind. Recruiting for what is called the Middle East Gendarmerie I know will be open to them. They deserve well of their country, and I think the Government has treated them not only in the letter, but

    1631
    in a sympathetic spirit in fulfilling their contracts. May I answer one other question of the hon. and gallant Member, as to the pay of the Special Constabulary in Ireland? It is £3 10s. a week, with certain allowances, but not with any pension rights. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who pays that?"] Part of this money in the Supplementary Estimates is for the payment of these men up to the 22nd November last, when the whole administration of the law and control of the police passed to the Northern Government. In reference to the other terms of the rest of the Royal Irish Constabulary, all men on contract will be paid according to their contract. Let me say this to the Committee. Ever since the Truce, it has been my constant endeavour to try to reduce the expenditure of this force and the administration of Ireland generally. I have had no Solicitor-General since last July, and no Attorney-General since last December, and judges have not been appointed on the ground of economy. I allowed the police force to decrease by something like 600 during the period of the Truce, believing myself that we should not be called upon to make further provision, although there was a risk if the force were not maintained up to establishment.
    Dealing, therefore, with the police, one has to consider the state of the public purse, as well as the overwhelming claim that this gallant body of men has on this House and the public. The terms of disbandment are not yet finally settled, but, generally, they are that twelve years is added to the service of an individual policeman, and he retires on a pension based on that, which is the scheme laid down by the Act of 1920 for compulsory retirement. But I agree there are many cases of men who must be specially dealt with, and I myself would like to see something done in the way of providing these men, even if at no greater expense by some re-arrangement of the pension, with some lump sum to enable them to start afresh in life, or to enable them to move if they wish to do so. The whole matter is under the sympatheic consideration of the Government. Not all these pensions fall upon this House, or will fall upon the Exchequer. In my opinion a very large number of them must be borne by the two Governments of Ireland as well as
    1632
    by the British Government. I think the Committee will agree that that is a fair arrangement.
    We come now to the case of the motor cars supplied to certain District Inspectors of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and about which a great number of the Members have spoken. There is nothing extraordinary in the matter. In the old days there was horse allowance. In the modern days there is motor allowance to the senior officers. Some of the junior officers wished to have motor cars, and the Government, mainly, I admit, for the purpose of policing, met the wishes of these officers and supplied them with cars on the instalment system. Now the hostilities have ceased the whole scheme must be gone into. It must be decided by the individual officer himself whether he wishes to take the car and continue the instalments or whether he desires to hand the car back and make some re-arrangement with the Government. The amount of this particular Estimate is comparatively small, £6,000. I think the act was a wise act. I am certain it is not the desire of the House that any of these officers should suffer in this matter.
    I do not know that I can go any further into the question of the pension of Sir Thomas Smith. I think I dealt with it exhaustively in my opening remarks. Other points were raised by hon. Members as to the extra-statutory pensions. There is an amount set out in the Estimate of £82 6s. 8d. to be given to the widow and £82 6s. 8d. to the six children, and the question was whether that amount was given only as decided at the County Court judge, or whether double that amount was given. The answer is that double the amount was given. Then a question was raised as to the Constabulary Force Fund. I will take that matter into consideration again. This Fund is under the control of the Treasury, and it can only be dealt with in consultation with the Treasury. Any particular case that any hon. Member desires to bring before me, either in regard to the Royal Irish Constabulary or otherwise, can be brought to me, and it will always receive every possible attention.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: This is an extremely important matter and interests a great number of officers. Will my right hon.

    1633
    Friend make a statement before long, after consultation with the Treasury, as to whether this Fund can be wound up and distributed among those entitled to it?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The hon. and learned Gentleman had better put down a question, say, for a fortnight hence.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I will do so.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I was asked whether the pensions for the police are going to be based upon a War bonus. I am very glad to answer the right hon. Member who put that question. They cannot be based upon a War bonus because the police in Ireland have received no War bonus. As to the purchase of arms, that was made with the War Office. Under the Subhead dealing with arms, ammunition, accoutrements and saddlery, in so far as £180,000 of the £280,000 is concerned, it is revoted money and not actual expenditure under this Supplementary Estimate. I think I have dealt with all questions raised by hon. Members in the course of the Debate—
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: What about the constable mechanics?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am sorry if any individual considers that he has been aggrieved because his colleagues have received a larger amount of disbandment allowance than he has. If there is any particularly hard case that the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires to bring to my notice I will look into it.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: I am sorry to interrupt again, but before the right hon. Gentleman finishes his remarks, can he tell the Committee whether he will consider setting up a Committee to deal with all these various grievances? In the case of the constable mechanics another breach of agreement was made. An order was issued asking these men to re-engage, and that has been repudiated. Are you going to repudiate it now?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I must resist the suggestion of setting up a Committee of this House to deal with a matter of this kind. I must be the Committee in these matters, and I shall give the most sympathetic consideration to any matters put before me while keeping in view the claims upon the public purse. I appreciate the criticisms that Members of the
    1634
    Committee have made upon these Supplementary Estimates especially as to the well-being of a very large number of these men who are in no sense responsible for policy, as ha.s been pointed out, and who have only done their duty under difficult circumstances. I hope I shall get the Vote now.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: I rise for a moment or two to make a few observations in view of the statement of the Chief Secretary about the contract with the Auxiliary Division. The Chief Secretary seemed to think it was nothing for the Government to break a contract, but it is not only a very great thing for the British Government to break a contract, but it is the first time this House u ill ever have agreed to such a fact. I have told the House the fact that an Order was actually issued at the end of May, or the beginning of June, 1921, in wihch these men were invited to re-engage. It was not until nearly two months after that, after the men had re-engaged, after their names had been published in Orders—which in the Army is always recognised as the official recognition of a contract—that the Government, having in view the altered conditions under the Truce, repudiated their contract to save money. That is the real truth of it. It was done at the expense of these men. Yet if the fighting had gone on the Government could have held these men to their contract. I think there will be a great deal more heard about this matter. This is an absolute breach of faith on the part of the Government. It is not a light thing for the name of the British Government to be dishonoured on their cheque upon a contract, and that is really what has happened. The Chief Secretary cannot let the matter slide over. He says that it has all been treated fairly and honourably. He may say so, but it is not the fact. The House has heard to-night that the contract was made with these men as I have stated. The Government have no right to do what they have done. Never before in the whole history of our country, I believe, has the Government gone back and broken their faith once their name had been given. The same thing has been done with the constable mechanics. Again, the Chief Secretary admits a blunder was made. But there was no blunder at all in the first case, that of the Auxiliaries. What happened was that after the Truce

    1635
    the conditions were altered and the contract was broken. Let me give a specific case of one of these Auxiliary officers. Writing to his superior officer he says:
    "As you are probably aware, I have been working on the staff of the Chief of Police for the past 14 months, and since April last, when I was transferred from 'F' Company to 'Z' Company,"—
    that is the Secret Service—
    "I have been in charge of the staff of Cork Local Centre. Stationed as I was in Cork I saw no D.R.O.'s, and acted solely on instructions from Dublin Castle. In July I was sent a re-engagement form to sign, taking me up to July, 1922."
    Not only that, but he was invited to sign a re-engagement form and asked to take on for another year. The letter proceeds:
    "I duly executed that form, and had my signature witnessed, and it was returned to the Administrative Officer. An official acknowledgment was received. Some time later another form was sent down for me to sign, the covering letter stating that the previous form which I had signed had been lost or mislaid by the Adjutant, Beggars Bush Barracks. Learning that Cadets might sign on for a further period of twelve months from the date of completion of the first year's service, I signed the second form to date 16th November, 1922. My signature was witnessed by a district inspector and section leader of Q Company and sent up to the Castle. No acknowledgment coming to hand, I asked the Officer in Charge of the Cork Local Centre, who was going to Dublin on business, to make enquiries for me. When he returned, he said he bad been told my second form had been received, and he was to 'tell Leipold it was all right.'"
    That is not treating them either generously or honorably, and if we could go to a Division upon this question, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would find a large number of hon. Members would vote against the Government, although they support the Government on general lines. For these reasons I ask the Chief Secretary to give the Committee some assurance that he will again go into this matter, upon which I can assure him a great many hon. Members are interested, and will certainly bring it before his notice. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give this question a further hearing in regard to the breach of contract, because it is not a question of money but a question of honour.
    Major GLYN: I feel quite sure that on reconsideration the right hon. Gentleman will see that if a mistake is made by officers responsible to him, or superior
    1636
    officers of these auxiliary forces, he must stand by their word. What makes the matter somewhat worse is that when these men were stopped on the 10th October, in repudiation of the contract they had signed, in London men were being recruited for this service in Ireland and these men are to be compensated, while the men who had service to their credit in Ireland and were willing to continue to serve, are being thrown back, while the contracts of men who never served in Ireland in an active way are going to be honoured. I feel certain that the right hon. Gentleman will see when he considers the matter that the men who bore the heat and burden of the day are going to be fairly treated. I am sure that no disciple of economy in this House is willing to put economy in front of honour. This is an honourable obligation, and if this business in Ireland is to go through in the way we want it to do, do not let it be said that we got it through at the price of dishonouring our word.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I want to support the plea which has been put forward by the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, and the hon. and gallant Member for Finsbury (Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee). I have freely criticised any waste of money in these Votes, but, after a bargain is a bargain. Apparently in this case the Government made a contract thinking the glorious war in Ireland was going to go on, but even then they have no business to let these men down. What makes the case more black is the fact that the men who did not actually do any service and were taken on at the last moment under a different engagement, are going to receive much better financial treatment than the men who went through the whole brunt of the business.
    I know that I have frequently criticised individual cases of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, but. I have never made a general attack upon that body. I recognise the peculiar conditions under which they serve, but these men are British ex-service men, and on this matter I wish to make my protest as emphatically as I can. The Chief Secretary has done the Government many a bad turn, but if he does this ast dirty trick, because it is only a way of getting out of an obligation to these poor fellows who have not many friends, it will be one of

    1637
    the worst turns that even he has been able to do the Government. I make him a present of this hint in no unfriendly spirit. Let him reconsider this point and give the Committee an undertaking tonight before we part with this Vote that the whole case of these men is going to be reconsidered. The right hon. Gentleman must not get the idea that by talking about the blunders of inferior officers he is going to prevent these men from getting their rights. Two months after these contracts, the subordinate officer's order is repudiated and these men are to be done out of many pounds. I am told that these men are in sore straits and are suddenly thrown upon their beam ends and unable to get employment. I know that I have criticised individuals in this force, but I look upon it as my duty to protest against injustice to these men, and let us treat them as brothers.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am quite prepared to go into the matter again, and circulate all the facts in connection with it. As soon as the House passes this Vote, every Auxiliary will be in receipt of a very handsome sum and then it cannot be said that we have turned adrift these honourable and gallant men.
    Major BARNES: I think the Chief Secretary should go a little further than he has done. He does not appear quite sure that these men had a contract under which the Government could hold them to their engagement. The Committee ought to be clear on this matter, and it is not sufficient to circulate the facts to the House. The right hon. Gentleman should fortify himself and the House with a real opinion of the point put by hon. Members. Here is a contract which did bind these men, and if the then state of things had gone on in Ireland, these men could have been kept to their engagement. If that is the case, the Government have no right to terminate these agreements without compensation.
    I would impress upon the right hon. Gentleman that he should amplify the undertaking that he has just given by promising not only to place the main facts before the Committee, but also to place before us an opinion from the Law Officers as to what is the real position. I am sure no hon. Members want any injustice done to these men. In these very Supplementary Estimates we are asked to stand by a loss of nearly
    1638
    £1,000,000 on account of an unfortunate bargain in respect of some material. This Committee does not want to be placed in the position of standing by a bargain when it is embraced in an ordinary commercial transaction, and running away from it when it is a bargain made with these men in Ireland. I join with other hon. Members in pressing upon the Chief Secretary the need for a very full investigation of this matter in respect of these men. There is a sum appearing in these Estimates for arms, ammunition, accoutrements and saddlery, and there is also an item for clothing and the Transport Service, and all these items come to something like £500,000. In respect of arms and ammunition, what we were really doing is only re-voting this money. Were these arms sold by the War Office to the force in Ireland? I would like to know whether this is also true in the case of clothing and barrack furniture, vehicles and tyres, mentioned under the heading of Transport Service. We are, in fact, therefore, not really voting £1,474,000, but we are actually voting a sum representing nearly £500,000 less, and this sum of £500,000 will appear as savings on the War Office Estimate. If that be the case I think it should be made quite clear. As the matter stands we were led to believe we were finding another £1,500,000 of expenditure, but, if the construction I have put upon the Chief Secretary's explanation is the correct one, £500,000 of that will appear as savings on the Army Estimates.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will go a little bit further in his undertaking with regard to the men of the Auxiliary force. He has been asked from every quarter of the House to do this. We all desire that real faith should be kept with these men, and I do not imagine that any Member of the House would object to a small additional expenditure in order that good faith should be kept with them.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: If I thought the Government were in honour bound by this contract I should strongly support it. But I am not convinced that the personal honour of the Government is concerned. There has been a sheer blunder. I will go into the question again, and I will circulate Papers so that the whole House may form its own opinion as to the merits of the case. I cannot go further than

    1639
    that. In reply to the hon. Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne (Major Barnes) of the item of £280,000 for arms, &c., £100,550 is money required for the purchase of arms from the War Office. The arms, of course, like furniture and motors, have a value which will ultimately be taken into account in relief of some estimate, but I cannot hold out any expectation that this will represent a saving of half a million.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment to reduce the Vote. I put that Motion down in order to draw attention to certain matters. My object was not to take one farthing away from what the Royal Irish Constabulary will get by this Vote. I think they should have a great deal more; but, having brought the matter before the Chief Secretary, and having induced him to take, as I hope, a sympathetic interest in it, I trust he will do his best to settle this grievance. Therefore I do not press my Motion.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question again proposed.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £1,000.
    I do this in order to draw attention to an extremely unsatisfactory reply given by the right hon. Gentleman earlier in the afternoon, and in particular to his extraordinary statement—a statement more extraordinary I never heard during my short experience in this House, and I hope I shall never again hear one like it—with regard to the disposal of motor vehicles. The right hon. Gentleman has not now such heavy duties cast upon him as he used to have, because the greater part of the better government of Ireland is now undertaken by the Colonial Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman therefore ought to come down here fully armed with all the facts to justify him in asking this country and this House for an additional million and a half of money. When he was asked a perfectly proper question as to how many motor vehicles had been disposed of to the Northern Government of Ireland, he, with an expansive wave of his hands, dismissed the matter as though it referred to one of those little things sold 2d. plain and 6d. coloured. He was asked how many of these motor vehicles had been sold to the Northern Government and for
    1640
    how much, and we got an extraordinary reply to the effect that the idea of strict accountancy in these disturbed times in regard to motor vehicles, Crossley tenders, and motor lorries could not be insisted on. He added that they might have given a few score of these vehicles to the Northern Government, and that they might eventually be paid for, but he could not say how many, neither could he tell when the money would be forthcoming. On that sort of accountancy the House of Commons is asked—with a Treasury empty and the authorities scarcely knowing where to raise money with which to keep the Empire going—to vote a million and a hall sterling. The House is almost empty, and I am afraid little notice will be taken of this extraordinary statement from the Treasury Bench. But this shows a really scandalous state of affairs which justifies me in moving this reduction.
    That is not the whole of my complaint by any means. A great deal has been said about 200 rifles that were handed over to the Provisional Government for an unknown sum of money to be paid at an unknown date. I quite agree that the transaction seems extremely loose, like many other Government actions in Ireland, financial and otherwise. But when the right hon. Gentleman was asked what artillery and machine guns were handed over to the Northern Government he could not tell us. The handing over of motor cars is bad enough. These vehicles only kill people by riding over them. I see provision for that has been made in the Estimate. But rifles and machine guns are dangerous things to be left lying about. They are as deadly in the hands of a fanatic in the north of Ireland as they may prove in the hands of a patriot in the south. For the right hon. Gentleman to plead ignorance on a matter of such vital importance is as bad as pleading ignorance on a matter of such financia importance as the number of motor vehicles that have been handed over to the Northern Government. I want to point out to the Committee the demoralising effect that the right hon. Gentleman's Irish régime has had upon him. He apparently thinks that anything will do for the House of Commons, that he need not account for the number o motor cars, which are worth a great dea

    1641
    of money, or for the number of rifles, which may mean the loss of many lives, each one a sorrow and heartbreak for some unfortunate woman. He says, "That is nothing. We handed them over; a few telegrams passed; one day we shall be paid for them. It is all right; I cannot be expected, in these times, to keep an account of them."
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: No. I was trying to evoke some regard for the troubles of the two Governments in Ireland, both of which Governments we are supporting in their endeavour to maintain peace in their respective areas. There is no question about a proper record of the rifles and motor cars and so on that are involved. The only point is that no valuation has yet been made. The valuation, to my mind, should follow the handing over of those weapons to the two Governments, who rely, to some extent at any rate, upon them for the maintenance of order. I think we have done the right thing to have the valuation after the handing over.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am not criticising either the Northern or the Southern Government, but our own Government. We have no difficulties. No bombs are being thrown about in the Accountant-General's Department in Whitehall. You have even taken the barricades down. There is no trouble about keeping an account of these things here, and you can require officers in Ireland to send you papers on which are written the number of motor cars, tanks, and lethal weapons handed over.
    The CHAIRMAN: There is no item for tanks in the Estimate.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg pardon; I should have said armoured cars. I am afraid my indignation at the sloppiness of the right hon. Gentleman's finance rather ran away with me. I am criticising our Government for not being able, at my request, to give the number of vehicles handed over. The right hon. Gentleman professes ignorance as to how many motor vehicles were handed over to the Northern Government. This transaction took place a long time ago—some weeks ago; long enough ago, at any rate, for his colleague the Secretary of State for the Colonies to have had details of the number of rifles handed over to the Southern Government; and I ask again,
    1642
    quite respectfully, Has the right hon. Gentleman not been able to get the number of vehicles handed over to the Northern Government? They are expensive things. The price of a good motor lorry is still close on four figures, and in these hard financial times we cannot allow these slipshod methods They might have done in the heat of the disturbed areas in France, but even the disturbed areas in Ireland do not justify such laxity to-day, and if we cannot get the number I think the Vote should be withdrawn. The Chief Secretary has treated the Committee, I consider, with a want of financial respect. I do not impugn his courtesy, but I do impugn his regard for the financial rights of the House.
    I am now going to hark now to the Auxiliary Division, and to ask for information on another point. I am not now dealing with charges of broken faith, but want some more precise details as to the gratuities. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of £70, and £250, and, when challenged in his second speech, he said that some had had £70, some twice as much, and some three times as much. Who are those who got £70? Are they cadets, or are they the so-called Black-and-Tans—the temporary constables? Who are those who got twice as much, and who are those who got three times as much; and is it the fact that the last men who joined got the most? I understand that it was not like the case of the labourers in the vineyard, where the last man got the same as the men who began first, but that the last actually got more than the first. I am told that there are men demobilised from the Auxiliary Division who never went to Ireland at all—that they joined here and did nothing but walk about in uniform in the West End, and yet, owing to the terms of their contract, or something of the kind, received a bigger gratuity than the men who went through it all. I think we should have some information on that. The right hon. Gentleman can set my fears at rest in a moment. He has the figures, and we only want a little candour and frankness.
    My third and last point is with regard to Sub-head N—Incidental Expenses—as to which we have had no account whatever except with regard to hospitals. The right hon. Gentleman piped his eye about the number of men who were treated in hospitals, and I felt pathetic

    1643
    about it myself. He said that £19,050 had been spent in tending injured man in hospitals, but that, subtracted from £66,000, leaves some £46,000, and I wish to know how that £46,000 is accounted for. In the main Estimate, item N is put down as including radio telephone service, petrol, lubricating oil, and spares, and then come barrack expenses, such as chimney cleaning, whitewashing—which I am sure is a heavy item in the Dublin Castle accounts—carriage of clothing and stores, carriage of fuel, purchase of bandages, ambulance instruction and a number of other things; but all of these small things—the purchase of newspapers, defences of barracks, and so on—are mixed up together, and I do not understand how any Government Department could furnish such an account and expect the House of Commons to pass it. All these small items are lumped together, and the total is £26,000 for this year and £143,000 for last year. I must say it is a thing for which only the Irish Government could be responsible. What is the explanation of the £46,000 odd, of which the right hon. Gentleman has given no account? His previous attitude on these Estimates does not impel me, at any rate, to give him this £46,000; I should like to know a little more about what it is for. If he will take us into his confidence on that point, we might possibly let him have his Vote, but in the meantime I beg to move to reduce the Vote by 1,000.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I am very happy, indeed, to reply to the hon. and gallant Member's questions with regard to the incidental expenses under Subhead N. The expression, "Incidental Expenses," is not mine; all the heads and subheads are made by the Treasury. Under this Subhead £19,000 odd is for hospitals, £15,000 for funerals, £6,000 for tending wounded, and the balance of £26,000 is due to the additional cost of erecting defences for barracks, which proved greater than was originally estimated. That accounts for the whole of the Vote. I am very glad to hear the, hon. and gallant Member say that he will assist me in getting approval of the Vote, now that I have answered in detail the questions which he put to me.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Only as regards Item N.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: What is the other?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: The sale to the Northern Government.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I profoundly regret that I have not, at the moment, exact details of all the arms and other equipment which have been supplied to the Northern Government. On 22nd November last the transfer of the administration of the law and all control of the police passed to the Northern Government, and with that passage went all the equipment necessary for maintaining peace and order. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes, I will do my best to get him the figures, but it is pressing me rather hard to expect me to give him details of what has already gone to the Northern Government in answer to their request for certain necessary arms. I think it is a fair answer to say that we feel it to be our duty to support the Provisional Government and the Northern Government by every means in our power in endeavouring to secure peace in their respective parts of Ireland. As to the Auxiliary cadets, not one of them received less than £70 on disbandment.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Who are those who got two or three times as much?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Those who had a longer service were paid their monthly salary for the months of the contract unexpired, subject, of course, to the necessary deduction for Income Tax; therefore, if a man had a very long unexpired contract of service, he got a larger amount than a man with a short contract of service. The differene of contract in service arose entirely from the desire to save the public purse.
    9.0 P.M.
    Major BARNES: I think my hon. and gallant Friend is rather hard upon the Chief Secretary. I feel more sympathy for him than my hon. and gallant Friend appears to do. I do not think he really ought to be here in charge of this Vote at all. The people who ought to be in charge of the Vote are the Minister for War and the Colonial Secretary. The right hon. Baronet gets all the kicks and they get the halfpence. When all the trouble was going on and the brunt was to be borne he had to stand up and face

    1645
    it. He got all the opprobrium and all the abuse. Now that a settlement is being made and all the pæans of triumph and the plaudits are falling on the Government he is relegated to a back seat. The Colonial Secretary told us to-day that questions on Ireland ought to be referred to him now, and he ought to be here to answer these questions. I came in while he was making a great speech the other day and the Chief Secretary was relegated to a humble position in the far corner. The right hon. Baronet is being left now to deal with these very awkward facts, which I do not believe he is responsible for. The Minister for War and the Colonial Secretary are the people who get the advantage of this Vote. The War Office has sold a lot of things to the forces in Ireland and sent its bill in to the right hon. Baronet. We have to pay the War Office for these things, and I should not be at all surprised if these disposals to which my hon. and gallant Friend takes exception were not made at all by the Chief Secretary, but by the other Ministers who have been effecting the settlement. They hand over motors, arms, barrack requisites, and other things to one Government or the other. It does not matter to the Secretary of State for War whether they pay. He is getting the House to pay. He gets his money all right, and if he gets his money for his munitions the Colonial Secretary is going to get the men who are disbanded for the Middle East Gendarmerie. So far as the settlement in Ireland goes it brings nothing but trouble to the right hon. Baronet, but it is bringing grist to the pockets of the War Office and bringing men into the forces which the Colonial Secretary is setting up in the Middle East. I think that is the true position, and if we wanted a really exact account of what is happening, and if we wanted to know what chance we have of getting any part of this money back in the way of Appropriations-in-aid, the Ministers who might have given us the information would be the two I have mentioned. As it is, the Chief Secretary must take as part of his duties at the Irish Office the unpleasant business of settling up these accounts. The administration of this force during the last three years has resulted in an expenditure of nearly £19,000,000.
    The CHAIRMAN: That might be relevant on the original Estimate, but not on the Supplementary Vote.
    Major BARNES: I have no doubt I am out of order, but I though there was some relevance between an original amount and a sum added to it.
    The CHAIRMAN: What is relevant is not always in order, and what is in order is not always relevant.
    Major BARNES: We live and learn. I hope I shall always be one or the other, if I cannot be both. I want once more to press upon the Chief Secretary the fact that these accounts are really presented in what, I think, is a slipshod fashion. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend went too far when he spoke of them as being sloppy finance. The Chief Secretary cast upon the Treasury the responsibility for the preparation of these accounts. He was being asked to give some explanation of Item A, which appears as "incidental expenses," and he told the Committee that the responsibility for the heading lay with the Treasury. I do not know whether responsibility for more than the heading does not rest there, but I would invite the Financial Secretary's attention to the fact that we have been told by the Chief Secretary that, in voting this Supplementary Estimate, we are really only re-voting money. It may be quite within the proper procedure of the House to vote money and to re-vote it, but it seems to me if what we are doing is simply re-voting money that we have already voted, that fact should be brought before us and in some way or other be made clear upon the accounts. As it stands, what we have learnt is that the War Office has driven a very good bargain with the Irish Office, and the Irish Office apparently has driven a very bad bargain with the Northern and Southern Governments. The War Office has supplied goods and materials and arms to the Irish Office, presenting them with a very exact account and no doubt getting the last penny they should have got, and the Irish Office have parted with these goods not in so exact a manner. Therefore, the Committee is confronted to-night with the duty—it cannot be a pleasure in these days—of voting an extra £1,500,000, and it is only after very considerable Debate that we have got the least gleam of light thrown upon the situation, and have

    1647
    ascertained that there is a possibility of some part of this money coming back. These accounts ought to be presented in a more exact form. We should have a more definite understanding, otherwise, out of this extraordinary series of financial transactions the War Office may benefit to a very considerable amount, which may be added to their expenditure, and we shall lose entire sight of it and have no opportunity of checking it. What is really happening is not an increase in the Irish Estimates, but an increase in the War Office Estimates. That is not the way in which to put a picture of finance before this House.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I do not agree with the hon. Member when he said that the Chief Secretary is not the proper person to defend these Supplementary Estimates. It must be remembered that when this expense was incurred the right hon. Gentleman was the person in charge. Whatever he is now, at any rate at that time he was in charge of the Estimates. Neither do I follow the argument of my hon. Friend that the Irish Office are making a present to the War Office, and putting a burden on the taxpayer. So long as there is no fresh money spent, if the Irish Office makes a present to the War Office of something which the War Office requires, and which would have to come upon the taxpayer, it is merely a cross entry in a book, and the taxpayer is in no way damnified. I am glad that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is present, because there are a few questions I desire to put. I will not, however, pursue them if they have been put and answered in my absence. There was considerable debate earlier in the evening on Item "Q," where there is mention of a pension to an Inspector-General of £1,466 13s. 4d. on 4th December, 1920. I do not know whether the attention of the Financial Secretary has been called to this item, and whether he has explained that the difference between £1,466 13s. 4d. and £1,233 0s. 2d. was never voted with the authority of this House. I have no objection to this particular gentleman. The reasons for granting him the increased pension may be excellent. He may be fully entitled to the increase but I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that this House should control expenditure, and that,
    1648
    therefore, no money—I do not care how deserving the object or however the necessity for spending the money at once—ought to be spent without the authority of this House. It is not a question of £200 or £300 to an extremely deserving man, but the fact that the Treasury, who were in the old days the watchdogs of finance, ought to see that no money is spent until it has been put before this House, and this House has agreed to the expenditure. This point arises on a small sum, but the principle is very important, because the Government are in the habit of doing this sort of thing. Last August they did it in regard to the Comptroller and Auditor-General on the Consolidated Fund. They are in the habit of disregarding the House of Commons, and of saying: "We desire to spend a certain amount of money. We will spend it, and ask for a bill of indemnity afterwards." This particular expenditure was incurred on the 4th December, 1920, so that 14 months have gone by. It is a totally wrong principle. We shall never get economy in this House until we make the Government understand that they have no authority to spend money unless this House gives it to them.
    A question has been raised as to whether the Estimates are in a clear form. On the whole, I do not think there is very much fault to be found with them; but I would point out that on Item "B," "Pay," there is reference to an increased number of the ordinary force and the Special Constabulary (Class A), £371,443. It is stated that the total increase is owing to 2,559 men being added between the date of the original Estimate and the truce. If that is all that is in it, I doubt whether I should have anything to say, except that it was a large sum; but there is also in this item "Provision for Disbandment." How on earth is anybody to know what proportion of the sum of £371,443 for increased pay under the Item "Pay" is voted for "Provision for Disbandment." The House ought to know, if they are asked to vote for increased pay, what the increase of pay is, and, if they are to vote a sum for provision for disbandment, what that sum is. These two items ought not to be lumped together.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): On the question of the general principle with regard to this item, some explanation on

    1649
    the actual merits of the case have already been given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary. The actual appearance of the items upon the Estimate I should describe as due to an excess of caution upon my part. I do not think there is anything which can possibly be objected to as to anticipation of Parliamentary authority, to which my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) rightly objects and to which I object, and for which we so rightly stood in a white sheet in the matter of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. In this particular case there is authority under the original Irish Constabulary Act, 1919, in the Lord-Lieutenant to make orders for pension in the Irish Police Force. When it was desired on the merits to give this Inspector-General an addition to what would be pension on the normal salary, we were under the impression that we had authority and power to do that by such an order, by the difference between pension on the actual amount of salary and pension on the three years' average. That was done. Subsequently doubts arose as to whether it was perfectly clear that we had such power. There was another slight difficulty to which I may just refer. There were certain doubts as to the actual status of the Inspector-General, as one of the force which he himself inspects. I am still inclined to think—I not know—that we had such power, but, doubts having occurred to my mind, it was thought by myself, and by my advisers at the Treasury, that in the Estimtes these doubts should be removed by the insertion of this charge in the Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I desire to draw attention to Item Q, page 31. I have some difficulty in understanding how these various pensions are fixed. Looking down the various pensions I find the case of a widow of a sergeant. She is given £82 6s. 8d. and in respect of six children she is to receive £82 6s. 8d., making a total of £164 13s. 4d. In these days of high prices and very high cost of living it seems to me that the Government have not been very generous in their provision for these young children, but the point to which I wish to draw attention for the moment is this. There is the case of another widow of a sergeant immediately following. She gets £80 3s. 4d. and her child is to get £16 0s. 8d. per annum. I am unable to
    1650
    understand this kind of calculation, and I shall be glad to know upon what basis these various Estimates have been founded. In the next case, the widow of a constable, where there is the loss of the breadwinner, she is to have the magnificent sum of £60 13s. 4d. and £12 2s. 8d. for her child, so that the total income for this home in future is to be something like £73 at the outside. What possible chance has this widow of maintaining her home and her child in decency and comfort on that amount?
    The next instance is even worse. I observe that in this case we have a record of the widows of three constables who are expected to maintain themselves on £50 per annum plus the prodigally generous sum of £10 per child. I think that that kind of differentiation is extremely deplorable, but I want to draw attention particularly to the next item, which is about the meanest record I have yet seen in the pages of any Estimate presented by this Government—the allowance to two motherless children of a constable killed in similar circumstances of £15 peranmumm. The mother is gone and the breadwinner is gone. No one will accept responsibility for these children at £15 each. That money has been placed aside by this generous Government to provide for the future of these children. Who is going to accept the responsibility of looking after these children and bringing them up for £15?
    Sir F. BANBURY: Fifteen pounds each.
    Mr. JONES: How much education are they going to get for £15 each? What sort of provision is going to be made for them in future? These children, whose parents are gone, have as much right to expect from this Government fair provision for their future education as the children of any people that sit on the Benches opposite. Contrast that provision with the provision made for the Inspector-General. I understand that on the 4th December he was previously granted a pension of £1,233 per annum, but this was not enough. They have now increased that pension by something like £233 13s. 2d., while the two motherless children are expected to face the future with £15 per annum, and this gentleman, with an affluence more than most of us can lay claim to, has added to his annual receipts £233 per annum. It really is a mean, niggardly and thankless kind of procedure to adopt towards these

    1651
    children whose father gave his life, rightly or wrongly, in the service of the community. The Government ought to reconsider the particular grant to these children, so that something might be done to make their future a little more bright and prosperous than it seems likely to be.
    Captain LOSEBY: I want to reinforce the last speaker in asking my right hon. Friend upon what system these allowances are based? I refer particularly to this allowance of £15 per annum for two motherless children. It is true that right through our pensions scheme the position of dependants is a very weak one. I also observe that that is a section which has been marked out by the Geddes Committee for attack. It is rather shocking to find these figures here at all, because I was under the impression, owing to my ignorance, that all these pensions in regard to men broken in the service of their country were being taken over by the Ministry of Pensions. I cannot understand of what value the Ministry of Pensions is at all if it is not going to fall to it to allot pensions of this type, and to insure that these pensions are equitable and equal.
    My criticism of this item is that it ought not to be here. Nothing, I can imagine, is more calculated to cause bitterness than this particular item, which it is almost impossible for any supporter of the Government to defend. You can say what you like, and my right hon. Friend can use words about "special advantage to the women and children of murdered policemen," but in fact, and I think we ought to face it, these were men killed in war. It may have been a particularly unpleasant type of war, it may have been civil war, but it was war. Someone on the Treasury Bench, I am inclined to think it was the Minister of Pensions, gave us to understand—and I am sure many hon. Members so understood it—that something would be done to enable these soldiers of the Crown to come under a pensions scheme. I do not blame my right hon. Friend in the least. It is not his job; I only beg of him to do at an early date what he will have to do later. We have got a pensions scheme. Inside the past seven years you have had a host of men—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Member is not in order in urging on a
    1652
    Supplementary Estimate the desirability of having a wider pensions scheme. He is in order in criticising a particular item.
    Captain LOSEBY: On a point of Order. I was only arguing that this £15 should not be here at all. It should not appear because someone—and I will not urge my right hon. Friend—should have represented to the Government, and that someone is the Minister of Pensions—
    The CHAIRMAN: That obviously puts the hon. and gallant Gentleman out of order, because this is not a Vote for the Ministry of Pensions. All he can say is that such a provision might have been more.
    Captain LOSEBY: I bow to your ruling, Sir, while humbly expressing my opinion that this £15 is inadequate. It is a provision that would never have been there had it been gone into and examined by an authority put up with very great care by this House and approved of by this House. I sincerely hope that in the near future men who were killed in Ireland, doing their duty, will be put on precisely the same footing as men who were killed under other circumstances during the past seven years while serving their country.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I rise at this moment to answer one or two questions which have been put to me. With reference to the question by the hon. and gallant Member for East Bradford (Captain Loseby) as to the inadequacy of the pension to motherless children, all I can say is that the law compels me to undertake these Estimates. These are Police Estimates for police pensions and cannot possibly come under something else for the moment, at any rate, except the Vote for the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. As to the point raised by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) as to the inadequacy of the pensions, all these pensions are payable outside the statutes that govern the payment of pensions to policemen in Ireland. They are special grants given because under the ordinary Acts these orphans and widows would not receive any pension at all. They are fixed according to the service of the sergeants or constables, according to whether there is one child or more than one child. I agree with the hon. Member that £15 per annum seems a small amount to give to an orphan. At the same time, there is no legal liability on

    1653
    the Government to give anything, and this amount was put in here as a contribution of, at any rate, £15 for each of these children to help them in fighting the battle of life. I do not know whether it will be possible to increase this, but I assure the hon. Member who particularly emphasised the point that I will go into the matter myself.
    Then the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) complained, I think, of the form of the Estimate under sub-head K, and urged that the items should be separated. I explained in my opening remarks exactly how that was made out—
    Sir F. BANBURY: My point was that if they were separated an hon. Member could not see, unless he came here and asked for an explanation, what the various amounts were.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I quite agree. I will bring it to the attention of the Treasury who, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, are responsible for the form of all Estimates in this House. I did my best to make it perfectly clear in my opening remarks the details and the different heads which make up the Estimate.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I was here at the time.
    Mr. HOGGE: I do not think it fair to make anything like, a lengthy speech, as I was not present when my right hon. Friend replied to the Debate. We have, however, moved a reduction of £1,000 in this Vote, and if it were not that there are other Votes which the Government hope to get to-night one could quite easily criticise, as hon. Members have criticised, not only the method but the amount of money that has been spent on this particular Vote. If hon. Members had taken the trouble to compare the Estimates of last year with those submitted this year, and then with these Supplementary Estimates, they would come to the conclusion that those who drew them did not really know what they were doing. However, I do not think it fair to elaborate that after my right hon. Friend has replied. I do think this last point wants pressing a great deal more than it has been pressed. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) has drawn attention to a very clamant point which my right hon. Friend has not
    1654
    met. I understand by his reply a moment ago that these were ex gratia payments; that these children were not entitled to them, and neither were the policemen, of whatever rank; but that the Government gave these moneys because of the special circumstances in which the policemen were killed.
    Is not this then a fair question to put? Why, in the name of common sense, give a man who has £1,233 a year to live on—which is three times the amount which is given to a Member of Parliament—an extra £233 a year until you get the approval of the Treasury? My hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary to the Treasury tried to make a case for this. The case he did not make was that this man began to draw his pension on the 4th December, 1920. That falls nearly 4 months before the Budget for the year 1921–22. In the name of common sense, why could they not have put that in the original Estimate if it were necessary to pay it? As to the man being entitled to the money, I am not saying one thing or another, because I do not know the circumstances of this particular case. It may be that he is entitled to extra remuneration, and personally, if he is, I am quite glad he should get it. I am not worried about the reasons. The Government should have come to us and should have said, "This man is entitled to £1,233 for his services. We think he should now be paid £233 more because of special circumstances, and, if the House agrees, we will pay this man as from December, 1920." That would have been the correct way. As has been said by the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), you will never get true economy if money is spent first and explanations are given after. I have known the House of Commons for 10 years, and of all things in the world it has not a hard heart. If an appeal be made to the head and heart of this House it will vote anything in reason. We know that from past experience. Look at the money we voted for the generals in the Great War, in comparison with what was given to the discharged men. Many of us would have been glad to see the discharged men get more. None the less we were not afraid to vote money to the generals for their services.
    If the Government had said, "This particular man deserves more because of the particular circumstances," possibly

    1655
    we would have been prepared to vote the money. The matter would have been more easily understood in that form than in the form in which it has been presented to us. The assumption of the Government has been that they have only to make a grant and a docile House of Commons will agree to it. I was reading recently a chapter of John Morley's "Life of Gladstone." it was the chapter on finance, and I read there that beyond question, whatever Mr. Gladstone's politics were, his was an experienced mind in finance. He emphasised in many speeches in this House that true economy lay in examining every detail of an Estimate, however small. Here we have a case in which the Government have practically pledged the honour of this House to an indebtedness of £233 a year without so much as saying to the House, "By your leave?" That is why we shall vote against this Estimate, among many other things. We have to face the position from the point of view of driving borne the stiffest examination of every Estimate laid before us. Every Government, this Government or any other Government, must be forced to recognise that, first of all, it is the House of Commons that is the master of finance.
    It is a great pity that so many Members absent themselves from the Debates when these important principles of finance are being driven home. If the House of Commons as a whole would listen to the points made by my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. M. Jones) with regard to the pensions we are now asked to vote, there would not be any doubt as to the result of the voting. The trouble we have to face is that we are compelled to talk into the air, and that then we are voted down by people who will not listen to the arguments, to which they ought to listen if they fulfilled their duties as Members.
    Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: There are only three members of the hon. Member's party in the House.
    Mr. HOGGE: That may be. There is only my hon. and gallant Friend belonging to his own party who is present at the moment. If my hon. and gallant Friend will take the trouble to read the OFFICIAL REPORT, as he has not listened to the Debate, he will probably find that
    1656
    members of the party to which I belong have contributed to this discussion more than any other section of the House. That may be an unfortunate experience for my hon. and gallant Friend. But let me put the point to him. Does he agree with me, or disagree?
    Lieut.-Colonel WARD: I agree with you right away if that will get us the Division.
    Mr. HOGGE: If I may say so, that is the only stupid speech I have ever heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman make. If he thinks that at present we are trying to avoid a Division, he is wrong. What we are attempting to do is to protest against the way in which these Estimates are presented, and against the assumption that money can be spent without consulting the House of Commons. With regard to these pensioners the Chief Secretary for Ireland made one mistake. I do not see how he can increase these amounts without a Supplementary Estimate. I would be pleased to see the orphan children cared for better, but unless there is in the Irish Office some fund of which we know nothing, there is no way by which my right hon. Friend could do it except by a Supplementary Estimate. Because of the treatment meted out on the one hand to a man who is to receive more than £1,400 a year because he is alive, and the treatment meted out to widows and children because their main breadwinners are dead, I hold that ever man who has a spark of humanity in his breast ought to go into the Lobby against the Government.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: The explanation given by the Chief Secretary with regard to these pensions does not make the position any clearer. On the contrary it has led us further astray. The pension to which the inspector-general was legally entitled was £1,233 a year, but he got an extra £233. Where was the legal authority to give that extra amount to him? Contrasting the pension of £1,233 and the pensions given to the widows and children of constables, we have the same complaint to make against this Government, when it is spending the nation's money for such a purpose, as we have to make against it when it spends money for other purposes. It is said to be a good Government. That all depends on the class to which you belong, and whether you are a highly placed

    1657
    individual. An individual with £1,233 a year gets £233 a year extra. There can be no argument either on the ground of equity or necessity, for the extra £233; but then you give to the constable's children £15 a year each. I am lot going to argue against that, because it does not require argument. We all know what £15 a year represents nowadays. I take exception, however, to the explanation offered by the Chief Secretary. He says there is no legal obligation to give anything to the children of the constables. There is nothing in the constable's contract or agreement compelling the Government to do so, but out of their generosity the Government gives them £15 a year. If, out of their generosity they gave £15 a year, why not out of their generosity give £30 a year, even though there was no legal responsibility to recognise these poor orphan children of the unfortunate constables? If the Chief Secretary would apply his mind to that side of the question we would be much nearer an understanding. We are not going to be put off by being told that there was no legal obligation. That is not the point of our objection. Our objection is the extraordinary and uncalled-for generosity shown to an individual or individuals who did not require it, and this niggardly treatment, this insult, offered to the orphan children of the common constable.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I assume we are going to have some reply to the recent speeches made, if not from the Chief Secretary from some equally competent Member of the Government., because a constitutional point has been raised. I suppose we may take it, however, that it is becoming a matter, of course in the House of Commons that money should be paid without the sanction of. Parliament, and that we should have the usual fait accompli flung at us across the Table. We are getting quite used to that, just as eels become used to skinning. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), who has very great financial experience, has dealt with certain matters in this Estimate, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), who has also financial experience and belongs to a race hereditarily famous in connection with finance, has
    1658
    also spoken, and yet we have not had one word of reply. Lastly, my hon. Friend, who spoke last and who has a right to speak for his constituency, having been returned at a bye-election, which is within the memory of us all, has dealt with the matter, but the Chief Secretary turns tail and leaves it to somebody else to answer. I make no complaint; the Chief Secretary is human, and I suppose he feels the results of a long Sitting, but this is a sum involving nearly £1,500,000 of money, and we should have an answer to the questions which have been put. I see here one of the leaders of Northern Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "The leader!"] I am glad to know he is the leader of Northern Ireland. I refer to the hon. and gallant Member for South Antrim. Perhaps he will give us some enlightenment on a matter about which the Chief Secretary has been singularly unable to enlighten us. I refer to Subhead R, which indicates that there is a sum of no less than £196,000 which we are not getting because, we are told, we cannot recover it from the Irish local authorities. I am glad to notice that the Chief Secretary has come back.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I have been here since 4 o'clock.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I was careful to state that I was certain this could be answered by another equally competent Member of the Government. It is a constitutional point, and I for one do not wish to keep the Chief Secretary here, because I know the hon. Member for Reading (Colonel L. Wilson) would undertake the task of replying to this point. We are told there is a sum of £196,000 which we cannot recover because of the disturbed state of Ireland. The amount allowed for in the original Estimate was £220,000, and that leaves approximately £30,000 which we have been able to collect and £190,000 which we have not been able to collect. Have the six Northern counties of Ireland paid their quota? Have they paid their share of these expenses, or is the default solely in the counties of Southern Ireland? I can understand the counties of Southern Ireland not having paid, because they have been in a state of open rebellion against the authority of this House and local government has broken down, but, according to hon. Gentlemen below the

    1659
    Gangway, there is complete tranquillity, order, and peace in their domain. In these six counties we are told that order and organisation reign, and that, in fact, the Government of East Prussia was nothing like it for efficiency or the government of Kent for peacefulness. Have they paid their share and, if they have not, have they made any promise to pay, and has the promise been put in writing and, if so, has the right hon. Gentleman seen the promise?
    Dr. MURRAY: A Coalition pledge!
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It is not. The Government of Ireland is not a Coalition. If it were, it would not be worth while asking these questions.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I do not wish to interrupt, but I may be able to save the hon. and gallant Member further trouble in dealing with this question. I am happy to be able to inform him that, as one would expect, the six counties in the Northern Parliamentary area have paid their local rates and police charges.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It has been cell worth my while to get that admission from the Chief Secretary, and I may congratulate hon. Members from Northern Ireland on the value of the character they have received from the right hon. Gentleman. Long may they live up to it. I wish to ask for some details about this £196,000. There is no mention of it in the Treaty which has been drawn up and ratified by the Dail and this House. Is the matter still under negotiation? Are we going to get this money, or will it appear as another default next year? When we pay this money is that the end of it, or are there some further sums outstanding? I do not ask for full details about other sums although it would be quite relevant, but I do ask for details about the £196,000. The right hon. Member for the City of London asked at what the Chief Secretary would discount the bill? I do not use that language, not having been brought up in the same school as the right hon. Gentleman, but I ask what chance there is of getting the money? This is not by any means a little sum, and the explanations for this particular sub-head have been as inadequate as they hav been for the greater part of this Vote or £1,740,000, which I hope the House will
    1660
    support me in reducing and thus show to the Chief Secretary that the days of slipshod finance are over.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I wish to express my regret that hon. Members opposite have mixed up two subjects, namely, the granting of £30 a year to certain unfortunate children and the unconstitutional practice of paying money without the authority of this House. If they had left the children out, I should have voted against the Government, but as it is I do not think I possibly can, because we cannot in the least know what the circumstances were under which the Government made this grant. As far as I know, the Government are never to be blamed for not giving sufficient. They are generally to be blamed for giving too much, and I do not believe for a moment that the Chief Secretary would have made a grant of what is after all £30 a year for two children unless he thought that was sufficient under the circumstances. The other matter is much more important, and it is a constitutional point. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) said we should exercise our authority and tell the Government, "If you choose to spend money without coming to us and gaining our permission, you will have to find the money out of your own pocket." If the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) had left the matter there, I should have voted against the Government, but as it is I must either abstain from voting or vote with them.
    Mr. HOGGE: I am very sorry to know my right hon. Friend the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) is going to run away. The argument that was used with regard to the children was not the question at all as to whether anybody should get money, but if they got money the disparity between what was given to the one and the other was the subject matter of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean). He did not bring up the argument that that money should have been spent, although I challenge the right hon. Baronet to say if he objects to these poor children getting any money.
    Sir F. BANBURY: No.
    Mr. HOGGE: I would not dream of accusing my right hon. Friend, whose interest extends even to the welfare of

    1661
    dogs, a matter in which I have supported him every time he has brought in his Bill, of that kind of spirit. When he knows that, as he does know, why does he get up and say he is going to run away from the Division? We are dividing against the Government on the question, which has never been answered to-day, why, in April or May, 1921, the Government did not budget for this money. They have left it until February, 1922, and the man in receipt of £1,200 has been drawing that money all the time.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Quite wrong, I admit.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is the right hon. Baronet afraid to come into the Division Lobby along with us on that?
    Sir F. BANBURY: No; if you had left it alone, I should have done so.
    Mr. HOGGE: It is not a question of talking too much. There are a great many Members of this House who hold their tongues too much, and do not explain the votes they give. They are afraid to get up and explain the votes they give. There are many hon. Members of this House who are going to support the Government on this Vote to-night who could not begin to explain what they are voting for and why they are voting for it. That is the whole point, and the right hon. Member for the City, the purist in finance, because somebody gets up on this side and draws attention to a perfectly relevant point, namely, the disparity between one payment and another, says we have mixed up the issue, because he is afraid to face the facts, like so many hon. Members on that side.
    10.0 P.M.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: The right hon. Member for the City of London takes exception to the point I raised in the
    Debate about motherless and fatherless children receiving only £15 until they reach the age of 15, where an inspector receives, not a pension, but an addition to his pension of £233 a year. I cannot understand the right hon. Gentleman's conscience. I pointed out a perfectly relevant point, that you found a certain individual already entitled to a pension being paid a very large addition to that pension because of certain risks we were told he had taken, and because of certain other worries and troubles that he had undergone. The Chief Secretary seemed to think he was entitled, because of that strain, to this addition to his pension, whereas there were two children with their father killed—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall): I heard the hon. Member make that speech before. I was in the Chair at the time, and in my recollection his speech was almost in the same words.
    Mr. MACLEAN: On a point of Order. I am explaining to the right hon. Member—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not entitled—
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I explain my point? If I am not right, I will be pleased to resume my seat. The point that I raise is this, that the right hon. Member for the City said my speech clouded the issue, and I was trying to make the point that, so far as my speech was concerned, it was perfectly relevant to the discussion and confused no issue on this Vote.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,473,370, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 53; Noes, 138.

    Division No. 11.]

    AYES.

    [10.5 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Gillis, William

    Lunn, William

    Barker, G. (Honmouth, Abertillery)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

    Halls, Walter

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

    Cairns, John

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

    Poison, Sir Thomas A.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

    Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Hogge, James Myles

    Robertson, John

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Irving, Dan

    Sexton, James

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Johnstone, Joseph

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Swan, J. E.

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Dr. Murray and Mr. J. A.

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

    Wintringham, Margaret

    Parkinson.

    Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    NOES.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

    Ainsworth, Captain Charles

    Haslam, Lewis

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Atkey, A. R.

    Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Pratt, John William

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

    Ramsden, G. T.

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Hinds, John

    Reid, D. D.

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Remer, J. R.

    Bartley-Denniss, Sir Edmund Robert

    Hood, Sir Joseph

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Roundell, Colonel R. F.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Jodrell, Neville Paul

    Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Simm, M. T.

    Burdon, Colonel Rowland

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Campbell, J. D. G.

    Kellaway, Rt Hon. Fredk George

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Casey, T. W.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Clough, Sir Robert

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Lister, Sir R. Ashton

    Strauss, Edward Anthony

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Lloyd, George Butler

    Sturrock, J. Leng

    Colvin, Brig-General Richard Beale

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Sugden, W. H.

    Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

    Lorden, John William

    Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

    Davies, Sir Joseph (Chester, Crewe)

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    M'Connell, Thomas Edward

    Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

    Dixon, Captain Herbert

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Taylor, J.

    Dockrell, Sir Maurice

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Ednam, Viscount

    Manville, Edward

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

    Moles, Thomas

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Morris, Richard

    Warren, Sir Alfred H.

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Morrison, Hugh

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Fildes, Henry

    Murchison, C. K.

    Whitla, Sir William

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Murray, John (Leeds, West)

    Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Neal, Arthur

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Newman. Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Windsor, Viscount

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

    Wise, Frederick

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

    Pain, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Hacket

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Gregory, Holman

    Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Pearce, Sir William

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr. Dudley Ward.

    Main Question put, and agreed to.

  CLASS VI.

    REPAYMENTS TO THE LOCAL LOANS FUND.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £16,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for making good certain sums written off from the Assets of the Local Loans Fund, together with certain sums due in respect of advances in Northern Ireland."
    Mr. HILTON YOUNG: This Supplementary Estimate is for repayments in respect of advances in Northern Ireland on account of the Local Loans Fund. This is a purely formal Vote, containing no fresh money at all. It will add not a
    1664
    pound or a shilling to the expense of the Exchequer in addition to the original provision for the year. It is formally necessitated by the setting up of the Government of Northern Ireland, and by the transfer to that Government of its powers on the 22nd November last. It will be within the knowledge of the Committee that money is advanced out of the Local Loans Fund to local authorities for public works, and that it is repaid in the form of instalments of principal and interest to the Public Works Loans Commissioners for the Local Loans Fund. That is the ordinary procedure. The institution of a Government of Northern Ireland on the 22nd November has made it necessary to follow a rather more elaborate and a little more indirect method of financing as regards the Fund. Under the Government of Ireland Bill—

    1665
    and I should mention that all these provisions are either contained in or follow necessarily upon the Government of Ireland Act—the Government of Northern Ireland will retain the instalments of principal and interest for local loans which are collected in its territory. In order to make good those sums retained by the Government of Northern Ireland, we vote this money back to the Local Loans Fund from the Exchequer, and then, finally, we square accounts by deducting an equivalent amount to that amount which we here vote from the Northern Irish residuary share of her revenue, and so the result comes to exactly the same thing in the long run as it did before the new arrangement, but, owing to the new arrangement, this formal authority of Parliament is necessary at this time.
    Sir F. BANBURY: On a point of Order. May I point out that a moment ago when I rose to speak you had not collected the voices, and, therefore, I was quite in order in getting up to speak on the Vote?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: We cannot go into that now, as we have passed the Vote.
    Sir F. BANBURY: On a point of Order. I got up in the usual way, and I venture very humbly and submissively to say that I have a perfect right to address the Committee. You had scarcely finished reading the Vote when I was about to rise, and I sat down to give you the opportunity to finish. You had not, I submit, collected the voices, and, therefore, I am perfectly in order in getting up to speak. I must insist on my right to address the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman does not quite recognise the position. I really thought I had gone quite far enough. However, I cannot go back on my decision now.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I am very sorry, but really I must insist—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Baronet knows the Rules of the House as well as any hon. Member, and even if I had not, as he suggests, collected the voices, having put the Question I cannot go back on it.
    Sir F. BANBURY: There are times that I recall when, after the Chairman had collected the voices, he did go back, and there was a long discussion. In this case now I venture very humbly to say that the voices were not collected, and that, therefore, I have a perfect right to make my statement. It has always been the custom whenever an hon. Member gets up, if the Chairman has not seen him, even if the Chairman has in a way collected the voices, that he should allow the hon. Member to make his speech on the particular subject. I must ask that the usual treatment should be accorded on this occasion, and that I should be allowed to make my statement. All I want to ask is this—
    Mr. J. WALLACE: On a point of Order. As a matter of fact, have you or have you not already given a decision in this matter?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Before you reply to that, Sir Edwin, may I ask if the right hon. Baronet is allowed to make his statement—and we are always pleased to listen to him—other hon. Members will have the opportunity of replying?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I must put myself right with the Committee. I must admit that I did perhaps rather hurriedly put the Question, but this was one of those cases where the Committee did not, as it seemed to me, desire to discuss the Question at all, and I was rather endeavouring to fall in with what I took to be the general feeling of the Committee. The Chairman, of course, has no views on these matters, but endeavours to collect the sense of the Committee, and in a way the right hon. Baronet was rather, as he will admit, a little slower than usual in rising, and I thought I was not exceeding my duty in putting the Question. Having put the Question and arrived at a decision, the matter is not open to review. Seeing that I have acknowledged to the right hon. Baronet that I was in the wrong, he will accept that, and not ask me to allow him to make his speech. If he presses the matter I think I am bound to allow him.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I will not say more than one word. All I want to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is as to the form of certain Repayments in respect of advances in Northern Ireland. Under the heading Original Estimate on

    1667
    the Paper there is a blank. That is to say there was no original Estimate for 1921–22. Then if hon. Members look a little further down, they will see Repayment to Local Loans Fund, original net Estimate £1.669. The two are contradictory. I want to know how it is these two items arise which apparently contradict each other?
    Mr. YOUNG: If my memory serves me rightly, the item is for non-recoverable assets, so that the original Estimate, 1921–22, is not a comparable one.

    PAYMENT OF LAND PURCHASE ANNUITIES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £265,024, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for making good certain Irish Land Purchase Annuities."
    Mr. YOUNG: This is also a formal Estimate, and the reason for it is exactly the same as the previous one. After the institution of the Government of Northern Ireland it retains instalments of principal and interest repayable formally to the Irish Land Purchase Fund. There is an important difference, however, between this and the previous Estimate. In future the Government of Northern Ireland will retain those instalments, because it is provided in the Act that those instalments of the Irish Land Purchase Annuities were to be a free gift from this country to the people of Northern Ireland. Therefore we have formally to take authority to repay those annuities.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: There is just one point I wish to raise in connection with this Vote. I am afraid we may be establishing a precedent which might be inconvenient in the future. The last Vote mentioned the Northern area, but this Vote does not mention it in the explanation at the top of the Vote. The whole matter is lumped together under "Repayment of Local Loans Fund." Needless to say, there is no mention of Northern or Southern Ireland. The point I am trying to put before the hon. Gentleman is whether we shall not have to do practically the same thing with regard to the Government of Southern Ireland if and when they require us to do so. The original Act related to the whole of
    1668
    Ireland. Are we constitutionally able to make this difference for a portion of Ireland which we call Northern Ireland, which was only contemplated when these particular Acts were passed. I should like to ask what is going to be the future of land purchase in the South of Ireland? I think that should be made perfectly clear.
    Major BARNES: What will happen under these circumstances? The Vote represents the amount due on account of Irish Land Purchase annuities in respect of land situated in the North of Ireland. But a Boundary Commission is to be set up which will transfer land in the North to Southern Ireland. Can the Financial Secretary to the Treasury assure us that the land in respect of which we are dealing here is not land which will come under the operation of the Boundary Commission; and, if not, can he tell the Committee what will occur if, as a result of the findings of the Boundary Commission, this land situated in the North of Ireland is transferred to Southern Ireland?
    Lieut.-Colonel ROYDS: Is it not the fact that whether the land be in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland all through these troublous times the Purchase annuities have been regularly paid in the whole of Ireland?
    Captain SENN: In Estimates previously presented to Parliament where the Supplementary Vote was for a new service the words "New Service" used to appear at the head of the Supplementary Vote, and the appearance of those words made it clear that on that Supplementary Vote the whole general question might be debated. In these new Estimates the practice of putting in the words "New Service" at the head has been entirely abandoned. I would like to know by whose authority this old practice in presenting the Estimates has been changed, and whether for the convenience of hon. Members it cannot be reverted to, so that we may know when a service is a new service. Is it not the case that by departing from the practice the privileges of this Committee in debating this Vote have been curtailed?
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am unable to give any ruling on that point until I know whether or not it is a new service. I have no knowledge as to that.
    Mr. YOUNG: The practice has been as described by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to put the inscription "New Service" at the head of a Supplementary Estimate when the service is actually new. But a service is not necessarily new because it has not been provided for in the original Estimate. The service may have been provided for by some running Statute which contained all the provisions necessary to discharge the service. Such is the case here. The whole administration of land purchase in Ireland is not a new, but an old service, having been provided for by Statute. It is only necessary, under the salutary rule to which reference has been made, to describe a service as a new service when it is in substance new, and has never been provided for before.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman was not in a position to give me the information for which I asked. I do not know if he has been able to obtain it.
    Mr. YOUNG: Perhaps, if the hon. and gallant Member will allow me; I might just deal with one or two other points that have been raised. As regards the title and heading of the Estimate, the form of the Estimate is, of course, new, and if it can be improved, I will certainly give the most careful consideration to the suggestion of my hon. Friend and of any other hon. Members with regard to form. With regard to the question of the land for which purchase arrangements might happen to be in force at the time of its transfer from one part of Ireland to another under the redistribution of territory, that, no doubt, would require some rather careful adjustments, and probably some arrangement would be necessary between the parties concerned.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am sorry that, although the hon. Gentleman has dealt with the questions of two other hon. Members, he has not dealt with mine, and perhaps, therefore, if I am not out of order, I may repeat it. This Vote deals with a sum of £265,000, and I think I am entitled to an answer on the only point that I have raised upon it. The sum is considerable, and I think the precedent established is more important still. The original Acts, which I have already quoted, referred to the whole
    1670
    of Ireland. How can we transfer this only to Northern Ireland, under Section 26 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, without a claim being set up, which might or might not be good in law, by the Government of Southern Ireland when it is duly constituted? If the hon. Gentleman is now seised of it, I shall be glad to hear his explanation. If he still does not understand my point, I shall be glad to explain it further.
    Mr. YOUNG: I did and do apprehend, I think, the bearing of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, but I had a certain diffidence in dealing with it because it occurred to me that it did not really bind itself very closely with the subject-matter of this Estimate. As my hon. and gallant Friend will remember, it was provided in the original Government of Ireland Bill that an arrangement similar to that which is now being carried out in this Supplementary Estimate for Northern Ireland should be applied also to Southern Ireland. It must also be equally clear that, owing to the changes which have taken place in regard to the future constitutional position of Southern Ireland, and her future financial arrangements, probably the arrangement made as regards land purchase annuities in connection with Southern Ireland will need readjustment. I fear that on the present occasion, even were I in order, I should not be able to give any more accurate or detailed account as to what the arrangements as regard land purchase in Southern Ireland will be. My means of information do not enable me at present to say more than that it will have to be subject to arrangement as between the British Exchequer and the Exchequer of the Irish Free State, as part of the general financial arrangements which would have to take place on the establishment of the Constitution of the Irish Free State.
    Mr. E. HARMSWORTH: I should like to ask the Financial Secretary one question. There is at the bottom of this Estimate a note which says that the second and third of these amounts, payable on the 1st December, have been advanced from the Civil Contingencies Fund, and that the Vote will to that extent be used to repay the Civil Contingencies Fund. This Contingencies Fund, I should have thought, was formed to a certain extent for emergency pur-

    1671
    poses, perhaps for paying servants of the State in distant parts of the world when it would only be possible to wait until an Estimate was presented to the House of Commons, but surely this fund was not formed for the purpose of being used for paying such monies as we have before us to-day, and having an Estimate afterwards presented to the House of Commons and paying back into the Civil Contingencies Fund such large sums of money?
    Sir F. BANBURY: I think there is considerable force in the hon. Member's statement. The Civil Contingencies Fund, to the best of my recollection, used to be quite a small fund, and it was used for civil purposes. Its very name shows that it was used for civil contingencies. No one can say land purchase in Ireland is a civil contingency. It is something that is authorised by Statute, and has been going on for 50 years. Under these circumstances, I cannot conceive by what right the Government has taken this money from the Civil Contingencies Fund, which was started for something quite different. This again raises a constitutional question as to whether or not the Government is right in taking money either without the sanction of the House of Commons or from certain funds devoted to other purposes. I remember, either last Session or the Session before, drawing attention to the fact that the Civil Contingencies Fund had been very largely increased, and I pointed out that it was not advisable to give the Government control over a large sum of money such as that it was proposed to institute. I was told it would not be improperly used. It seems to me this has been improperly used. It has been used for a purpose for which it was never intended. This again involves a constitutional question, and I hope we shall have a satisfactory explanation.
    Mr. YOUNG: I, of course, entirely agree with the right hon. Baronet and the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. E. Harmsworth) that the uses of the Civil Contingencies Fund require the most careful scrutiny and safeguarding by this House. But, in fact, the use of the fund for this particular purpose is typical of the use of the fund, and is exactly the sort of use which the fund is provided
    1672
    to meet. It is a Civil Contingencies Fund. This is a civil purpose. I hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) say land purchase is not a contingency, because it is provided for by Statute. That is very true, but there has been a contingency, the contingency of a new Government of Ireland Act, violently cutting off all the financial arrangements in Northern Ireland and requiring special emergency arrangements to meet that exceptional contingency. The contingency in this case was that all these sums have to be repaid under Statute or statutory obligations to the Local Loans Fund, the Land Purchase Account, and the Land Purchase Fund. As regards the second two, the Land Purchase Account and the Land Purchase Fund, they had to be repaid on 1st December, 1921, when the House was not sitting. We could not get our Supplementary Estimate before that because we did not know what sums were going to be required. That is exactly the sort of contingency the Civil Contingencies Fund exists to meet. You have to make a statutory payment for a single occasion owing to a contingency of a special sort. We were not able to get a Vote before. We must advance the money from the Civil Contingencies Fund for the two months which must elapse until we could come to the House on the first possible opportunity to get authority to repay to the Fund. That is what we have done. At the earliest possible opportunity we have come to House in order to get authority to repay the money to the Fund from which we had to take it because of special emergency. In these circumstances, I think the Committee will agree with me in being satisfied that this was, in so far as any use of the Civil Contingency Fund can be normal, a normal and reasonable use of the Fund of a sort with which the Fund was created to deal.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I cannot say that I think it was a normal use, or a use which was intended when the Fund was instituted; but I quite admit that the Government have got themselves into a horrible muddle in connection with the Irish Treaty. The hon. Gentleman says that the House was not sitting on the 21st December. That is true, but we were sitting on the 16th or the 17th

    1673
    December, and it would have been possible to have brought this Vote forward then, and to have saved the Contingency Fund from being used. I am much obliged to the Financial Secretary for his answer. I have every sympathy for him. It was not altogether his fault that this difficulty has arisen over a Treaty which apparently has not given peace to Ireland or succeeded in carrying out the financial arrangements in the ordinary way.

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.

    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £150,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Customs and Excise Department."
    Sir D. MACLEAN: This Vote is in principle the same as the Vote which we passed last week, and the arguments, in so far as they are addressed to the main line of criticism, would be almost identical, apart from the details of this Vote, with those which we used on the former occasion. It is important that public attention should be further drawn to the criticisms which were addressed on the last occasion. I suggest that the Government might be allowed to get the Committee stage of this Vote to-night, on condition that they put down as first Order the Report stage of the Vote we have already passed, and also the Report stage of this Vote. Then we should have a first Order discussion on the very important point which we raised on the last occasion. It is in the interests of better discussion that that course should be taken.
    Sir F. BANBURY: We could go on discussing this Vote, but I do not want to interfere if any arrangement is made.
    Colonel LESLIE WILSON (Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury): I am willing to accept the proposition of my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean), that is to say, if the Committee give us the Committee stage of this Vote to-night to put down as first Order to-morrow the Report stage of this Vote and the Vote of a similar kind passed last week.
    Sir F. BANBURY: No more Supplementary Estimates will be taken to-night?
    Colonel WILSON: That is so.

  CLASS II.

    BANKRUPTCY DEPARTMENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1922, for meeting the Deficiency of Income from Fees, etc., for the requirements of the Board of Trade, under the Bankruptcy Act, 1914."
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put and agreed to.—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
    Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

    CLONES INQUIRY.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill)I beg to move
    "That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the circumstances connected with the affray which took place at Clones on the 11th day of February."
    The object of this inquiry was explained to the House during the Debate on the Irish Free State (Agreement) Bill on Thursday last. The House is fully in possession of all the facts relating to the situation on the border between Northern and Southern Ireland out of which the affray at Clones Junction arose. Both the Northern and the Southern Government of Ireland have put forward what they honestly believe to be the true version of what occurred on this occasion, but it is very difficult for anyone to ascertain exactly who, in a case like this, fired the first shot or where the balance of blame really lies, and a great many assertions and counter-assertions have been made on this point. But neither the Northern Government nor the Southern Government have any other interest in this matter than the elucidation of the truth. Neither have any desire to shield brutal violence and the slaying of men,

    1675
    and both Governments have agreed to and even press for an impartial inquiry into the affair. The only reason why it is necessary to bring this matter before the House at all is that at the present time there is no machinery existing in Ireland which can authorise the holding of an inquiry upon oath and the summoning of witnesses compulsorily. This Resolution, passed in this House and confirmed at the other end of the passage, will have the effect of arming the personage who is chosen to undertake the inquiry with the necesary power to take evidence on oath and to summon witnesses. I am in communication both with the Northern and the Southern Government as to the person who should be chosen, and I have had suggestions from both Governments. At the present moment I am not in a position to announce the name of the officer chosen, but the suggestions which have reached me from both Governments show beyond all doubt or question that only one view prevails, namely, the choosing of some really impartial man of high character, high position, and adequate judicial attainments who will be able to unravel this affair.
    You may say, when so much is happening in Ireland, when so many new and, in some cases, shocking things are happening from day to day: "Is it worth while to set up the whole apparatus of this Committee in order to go into the affair at Clones Junction?" I think it is well worth while. What we have got to do in Ireland at the present time is to endeavour, as far as possible, to reassert the value of human life, to make everyone realise that the period of brutal violence, of reciprocal reactions of injury and retaliation is over, and that we are entering on a period where all such matters are going to be meticulously and patiently and perseveringly investigated. We may fail. [A laugh.] The hon. and gallant Member laughs in a sneering manner. We may fail, but it will at any rate set matters on a secure foundation. Let us endeavour, at any rate, to get on a basis that is clearly understood, that Irishmen on both sides of the border are henceforth going to unravel patiently the causes that have led to the violent death and slaughter of any human being.
    This is an inquiry which will go on, no doubt, for some weeks, and which will,
    1676
    as it proceeds, make everyone feel that the consequences of actions of violence are going to be carefully investigated without any desire other than to affix the true responsibility. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill) has an Amendment, the object of which is to widen the scope of the inquiry.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It might save time if I say that I have looked at the Amendment, and that, in my view, it is not relevant to the matter brought before the House. The Statute under which this Motion is made is very strict. It requires the matter to be a definite matter of urgent public importance. I do not deny that the other matter mentioned in the Amendment is also of urgent public importance, but, clearly, if I were to permit one Amendment of this kind, there might be proposals to add to this inquiry a number of other matters. For instance, I might have from the other side of the House an addition proposed for inquiry into certain events in Belfast. That would obviously defeat the purpose for which this Statute was passed, and under which these proceedings are taken. Therefore, I think it my duty to disallow an Amendment of this character.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That relieves me of the necessity of adding to the remarks I was making. I think that this is a proposal of value in that it is agreed upon between the two Governments. I could not add to it except by agreement between the two Governments, which might take a great deal of time. I anticipate that there will be no difficulty in agreeing upon a suitable person to hold the inquiry, and I hope the House will clothe the inquiry with the necessary means to become fully effective.
    Mr. RONALD McNEILL: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
    11.0 P.M.
    I do not think that the ruling just given by Mr. Speaker was at all expected by my hon. Friends, and it only strengthens the doubt I had as to the wisdom of the inquiry which the Government are to institute. I can assure the House that, although all these matters are mixed up with very strong party feeling, I do not approach this particular point with any party feeling whatever; but I am very doubtful whether the course that the Government are taking will have any appreciable effect in the direction which

    1677
    they desire. The right hon. Gentleman said truly that the thing more necessary now than almost anything else is to reassert the sanctity of human life, and to do anything we can to get over the prevalent violence. But will the proposed inquiry have any such effect? After all, it is only a proof of the terrible condition of the country that, unquestionably, this particular incident at Clones is only one of a great many acts of almost equally detestable violence. What is to be gained by singling out one particular act of violence in order to make it the subject of inquiry? The hon. Member for South Antrim (Captain Craig) had intended to enlarge, if possible, the scope of the inquiry so as to include some, at all events, of the other almost equally detestable acts which have occurred within the last few days or weeks in order that it should not have been such an exceptional matter as the Secretary for the Colonies has proposed. I am greatly afraid that under present conditions there is not the slightest prospect of arriving at any satisfactory result. To begin with, the right hon. Gentleman cannot protect witnesses. In the present state of affairs it is impossible to imagine that in a matter of this sort you can get at the names of persons who are in a position to give evidence and induce those persons to come forward and give a really true and reliable account of what took place. It is out of the question. Anyone who knows anything about what is going on must recognise that. What is the object of holding an inquiry in those circumstances, when you start with the hypothesis—or the acknowledgment—that it would be impossible to get the evidence upon which alone you could find a verdict of any value? In addition to that in all these matters—this matter of Clones is merely an example of it, as the right hon. Gentleman has said—you have conflicting accounts, and unfortunately these conflicting accounts are not simply the conflicts of evidence to which one is accustomed in ordinary courts. They are conflicts which directly take party sides, and the only effect of setting up an inquiry of this sort will be to excite recriminations on one side or the other. If a witness gives a true account of what he saw it is almost certain to provoke animosity against him personally, and particularly against the
    1678
    evidence which he gives. Therefore the object which the Government themselves have in view, will be defeated rather than furthered, by setting up this inquiry. I want to know what the tribunal is to be. I do not know from the Motion which has appeared on the Paper, exactly what is the nature of the tribunal proposed. Is it to be a tribunal set up under the Act which was passed during the War? If the inquiry is held before a tribunal of that kind, will it be held in camera? I do not know whether it is possible to hold it in camera, but it appears to me if the right hon. Gentleman is going to subpœna people to give evidence, he is probably imposing a death sentence on some of them, unless they are able to give their evidence confidentially so that it will not be known to their enemies on the other side, that they have taken what might be regarded as a party point view. I hope the Government will tell us whether it would be possible that the evidence should be given in the only possible way which can protect the witnesses. The right hon. Gentleman said he was not in a position at the present moment to give the name of the person who was to preside at this tribunal. May I ask him whether it is to be a single judge—a single individual—or is the tribunal to be in the nature of a Commission consisting of more than one person
    Mr. CHURCHILL: A single individual agreed on between the Northern and Southern Governments. Of course, if they both prefer a larger number of persons we are entirely in their hands.
    Mr. McNEILL: May I ask another question? The right hon. Gentleman speaks of a person agreed upon between the Northern and Southern Governments. Has he any reason to believe they will agree or have they already agreed upon the name of any person to serve in that capacity? Unless the right hon. Gentleman can tell us that they have so agreed, I must confess myself as being extremely sceptical about whether such agreement is likely to be arrived at. I urge strongly that the right hon. Gentleman should tell the House of Commons to whom he proposes to entrust this very onerous duty before he asks us to sanction the setting up of this tribunal. If he is not in a position to-night to announce to the House the person whom he proposes to

    1679
    name as judge, I urge that we should adjourn consideration of this Motion until he is in a position to do so. It would be most unsatisfactory if, without knowing anything of the person to whom we are going to entrust this duty, we should proceed to set up the inquiry in the dark. Therefore, unless the Government can tell us who the judge is to be, I would propose to adjourn the Debate.
    Captain CRAIG: I beg to second the Motion for adjournment of Debate.
    I agree entirely with what my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. McNeill) has said. On the question as to whether or not the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland would like the scope of this inquiry extended so as to include the matter of raids into Northern Ireland, I have a telegram from the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, sent off at 10 this morning, dealing with this Motion which was to come on to-night, and at the end of it he says:
    "Have also urged that all kidnapping cases be brought within the scope of the inquiry."
    That is to point out to me that he has actually addressed the Government, asking them to enlarge the scope of the inquiry, and I think that unless that is done, the inquiry will be of very little value to anyone. I honestly cannot see, unless the whole question of the matters which led to these murders or these regrettable incidents at Clones is gone into, what good would come out of this inquiry. Therefore, I would add my arguments to those of my hon. Friend and ask the Government if they cannot see their way to adjourn this Motion now until they have had further communications with the Prime Minister of Ulster and Mr. Michael Collins on the subject as to whether they would not both prefer to have the scope of the inquiry made larger than is at present proposed.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must confess I am somewhat surprised at the two speeches to which we have just listened I understood that great objection was taken in the North of Ireland to the version of this affray which I read out on the authority of the Southern Government. I also read out the version of the Northern Government, and it was clear that there was a definite conflict of testimony. I understood that both Governments were earnestly desirous of having
    1680
    an impartial inquiry into the matter so that the truth might be elicited. The Southern Government, whom I addressed on the subject, were most eager that this matter should be thoroughly inquired into. They have proposed the names of two gentlemen. If my hon. Friends had not pressed the point I would not have mentioned this now. They proposed Sir Dunbar Barton, who was Unionist Member for one of the divisions of Armagh and was a Judge of the High Court in Ireland, or, alternatively, Mr. Justice Wylie. I have transmitted these two names to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, and I must say—whether they are suitable names or not I do not presume to pronounce; it is not my business—that their choice showed an absolutely sincere desire on the part of the Government of Southern Ireland for an impartial inquiry. I had received some expression of the opinion of the Government of Northern Ireland on this case. We had rather been proceeding on the basis of some English Judge being chosen, but after all it is much better that this should be considered by Irishmen for Irishmen without the intervention of persons from this side of St. George's Channel. It is clear that the Southern Government have not in any way shown any disposition to avoid this inquiry. My hon. Friend, who seconded the Motion for Adjournment, and other hon. Gentlemen have touched upon the subject which you have ruled out of Order as an Amendment to extend the scope of the inquiry. It is true that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland communicated with me yesterday indicating that it might be desirable to extend the scope of the inquiry. I am powerless to do that without the approval of the Southern Parliament. It is obvious that if you start to extend the scope of the inquiry there are very elastic limits. It might be said that it should include the case of the Unionists who were kidnapped by a ridiculous and outrageous proceeding ten days ago. But that is hardly the subject of an inquiry. Obviously those who made a raid into the Northern territory were entirely wrong. There is no question of dispute as to facts. It is admitted that they were wrong, and the Southern Government is prepared to release all the kidnapped men without any condition attaching to that. If one went as far as that one would have

    1681
    to go a step further, and there would be questions and inquiry into all the different rights and wrongs as to the terrible things that have been happening in Belfast, which, thanks to Sir James Craig and his Government, has now been reduced for the time being to a state of order and comparative quiescence. There is no limit.
    We do not presume to dictate to any Irish Government except in matters which concern the Imperial interest. Here we offer our good offices. We offer them our procedure and machinery, in order that these matters can be investigated. That is all we have done, and if the Leader of the Ulster party in this House, speaking as he does, no doubt, with full responsibility, says, after what I have said, that the Northern Government do not desire that this matter should be carried further to-night, I shall certainly not force it upon them in any way, but we shall stand here ready to serve the interests and the hopes and wishes of both Irish Governments, having ourselves only one—that they may be in accord together.
    Mr. McNEILL: Perhaps, by the leave of the House, I may be allowed to say one word in asking leave to withdraw the Motion for the Adjournment. I would like to tell the right hon. Gentleman that, so far as I am concerned, I have had no communication of any sort with the Northern Government, and did not know what their view was one way or the other; but it occurred to me that an inquiry of this sort would have very little prospect of arriving at any valuable knowledge. If the right hon. Gentleman and the Government think otherwise, certainly I have no desire to stand in the way. I am quite certain that whoever is appointed will do their best, and if they can protect the witnesses and get them there to give evidence, and if they can arrive at any accurate account of what took place, so much to the good. I have no wish to stand in the way of that being done, arid, after what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I will ask leave to withdraw my Motion for the Adjournment.
    Motion for adjournment of Debate, by leave, withdrawn.
    Resolved,
    "That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite
    1682
    matter of urgent public importance, namely, the circumstances connected with the affray which took place at Clones on the 11th day of February."
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    ROSYTH DOCKYARD.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
    Mr. J. WALLACE: Following the question that I asked at Question time, I want shortly to raise the matter of Rosyth Naval Base. There are four naval dockyards in the United Kingdom—Devonport, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Rosyth. Considerable reductions are being made at these yards at the present time. The number of men employed at Devonport is 12,000; Chatham 9,000; Portsmouth 13,000, and Rosyth 6,000. It is the intention of the Admiralty to reduce the staff at these yards by a total of 7,500 men—Rosyth is to be reduced by 50 per cent., and the southern dockyards by 12½ per cent. It has been suggested to me that while I have advocated national economy on several occasions, I am inconsistent now in saying that the reductions at Rosyth are unfair, and not in the interests of economy. I shall try to prove that that suggestion is quite inaccurate. If the Admiralty have decided to reduce Rosyth for strategical reasons, it is not for me, as a mere layman, to criticise that policy; but Rosyth was brought into being and a large staff was created to carry out a line of policy adopted by the Admiralty during the War. They have now decided to change that policy, and I suggest to my hon. Friend opposite that if they do so they must remain true to the obligations which their former policy incurred. There was a very considerable number of English transferees brought from the southern yards to Rosyth Dockyard.
    To induce them to come various liberal conditions were offered to them. They were a body of highly-skilled, efficient workmen of high character, and the last thing I wish in the world is for the Admiralty to repudiate any of the obligations entered into with these men. It ought not to be forgotten, however, that a considerable community has grown

    1683
    up round Rosyth. Not only have these Englishmen settled there, but a considerable number of Scotchmen have settled in the Rosyth area. These are described as hired men. The term "established man," which is used in a naval sense, is not very well understood in Scotland. But the Englishmen at Rosyth are mostly established men. My definite suggestion is this: that while the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not dream of repudiating his obligation to these established men at Rosyth, he ought to consider the advisability of transferring them to the Southern dockyards. At Rosyth the "Furious" is refitting, and that will employ for perhaps 18 months 2,000 men. It has been decided by the Admiralty that the "Furious" is to be towed to a Southern dockyard for refitting. If you are going to change the policy in that way, and to dock the "Furious" in the way described, I suggest that you should transfer to the Southern yard a certain proportion of the English transferees. The last time I was in the Rosyth area I received a very important deputation of English civil servants who signified their willingness to return to the Southern yards if they retained their Rosyth status and advantages. I ask my hon. Friend to consider the difficult position which is going to arise at Rosyth if the Admiralty pursue the policy which they have announced. I do not know what the final policy is going to be. I was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary that it was decided that 3,000 men were to be retained at Rosyth. It is now freely stated at Rosyth that 2,000 men are more likely to be retained. I beg the hon. Gentleman to consider the position seriously. Let him bear in mind the position of the ex-soldier to whom the Government have made such liberal promises.
    I may say that I faced a week or two ago a hostile meeting in Rosyth, and I told them I was prepared to follow the unpopular course of supporting the Government in their policy of economy, but I would ask for a square deal in regard to Rosyth. I ask for that square deal across the Floor of this House.
    The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Commander Eyres-Monsell): The House will have listened with great sympathy to the statement made by my hon. Friend. The House will also realise that this
    1684
    is one of the first fruits of economy, and that economy cannot be applied without involving whole communities in great hardships. I gathered that my hon. Friend does not question the general policy of reductions, but he does question the method by which we are carrying them out. I should like the House to realise the very real difficulties with which we are faced. The number of men we had on the 11th of this month at Rosyth—I am talking only about Vote 8—was 4,569, and they have to be reduced to 2,000. Those 4,569 men at present consist of two classes, established men and hired men. There were 1,658 established men and 2,911 hired men. These two classes of men are in two entirely different categories. The State has contracted obligations, and very definite obligations, towards the established men. They are, in fact, in very much the same position as civil servants and are entitled to superannuation. With regard to the hired men, no such obligation exists. They are, in fact, under a week to week contract. I think it is obvious that it is not in our power to do anything in principle except to discharge the hired men. The definite question which the hon. Member has put to me in connection with the "Furious" was that some of the established men employed on her should be transferred south. That raises several difficulties. It was not easy to get these men to come up to Rosyth from southern yards, and we had to give them certain inducements and they received special facilities. If they had served two years in a southern yard they would only have one year to serve at Rosyth as hired men before going on the establishment. If we transferred any of these established men to southern yards we should block a great number of hired men at southern yards who are perhaps more entitled to establishment than the Rosyth men.
    Mr. WALLACE: Yes, but in the southern yards you are only making a reduction of 12½ per cent.
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I have not time to go into all those questions. The hon. Member said he agreed with our policy.
    Mr. WALLACE: I agree with the policy of cutting down, but not the policy at Rosyth.
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: To bring these men south would be very unfair. There is another reason. Every established man who is moved south will have to be paid by the State the whole cost of his removal, and when he moves south he will displace a hired man. That man, unless he can find work, will have to move his home away from the dockyard where he has been brought up, so that it means two removals; and, if anyone is going to be removed, I must remind the hon. Member that the southern dockyards are very much further from any industrial centre than is Rosyth, and that it is more difficult for these men to get any alternative employment. These are some of the difficulties. We have examined them from every possible direction, but I am not in a position, as I told my hon. Friend at
    1686
    Question time to-day, to say whether in some measure they can be overcome. To have to give orders for these dismissals is the most unpleasant task that anyone can have, and I cannot overstate how much I sympathise with my hon. Friend. I can only repeat what I said at Question time to-day, namely that everything we can do will be done and that as little hardship as possible under the circumstances will be allowed to occur. I hope my hon. Friend will keep in touch with me and inform me of any ideas that he may have for relieving this very unfortunate and difficult position.
    It being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'Clock.

ROYAL NAVY.
  LONG SERVICE PENSIONS.
  LONG SERVICE PENSIONS.
  ACCOUNTANT BRANCH.
  ACCOUNTANT BRANCH.
  WARRANT RANK.
  WARRANT RANK.
INDIA.
  EDUCATION (BRITISH CHILDREN).
  EDUCATION (BRITISH CHILDREN).
  OFFICIALS (PASSAGES).
  OFFICIALS (PASSAGES).
  INDIAN SOLDIERS (LITIGATION) ACT.
  INDIAN SOLDIERS (LITIGATION) ACT.
EDUCATION.
  MIND-TRAINING.
  MIND-TRAINING.
  SCHOOL AGE.
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  IRISH ELEMENTARY TEACHERS.
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POST OFFICE.
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  CENTRAL TELEGRAPH OFFICE (LEAVE).
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  TELEGRAPHS, CHESTER.
  TELEGRAPHS, CHESTER.
  MONEY ORDER DEPARTMENT (WOMEN).
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  DONATIONS (LINCOLN).
  "LABOUR OVERSEAS."
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  COST OF LIVING INDEX.
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NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
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