Sitting of 10 November 1921

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    MENTAL TREATMENT.
    Captain LOSEBYasked the Minister of Pensions the number of ex-service men at present confined in pauper lunatic asylums; the number of men so confined whose dependants receive treatment allowances; and the amount of such allowances?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Macpherson): The number of ex-service men at present receiving treatment in county or borough asylums at the cost of the Ministry is approximately 6,210, and of these some 4,140 have dependants eligible for and in receipt of treatment allowances. The amount of the, allowances is regulated by Articles 6 and 7 of the Royal Warrant.
    Captain LOSEBY: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the very large increase in the number of men in lunatic asylums since January of this year—some 35 per cent. or more?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I do not think that is so. I made reference to that particular point in reply to a question yesterday. I should like to have some further notice of that question.

    TREATMENT ALLOWANCE (LABOUR CORPS; H. J. LAWRENCE).
    Captain BOWYERasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will inquire into the case of Mr. H. J. Lawrence, late Labour Corps (Ministry of Pensions,
    572
    reference No. 11/M/359,574), who is still under treatment at Headington Hospital, Oxford, for a gunshot wound; whether he is aware that this man is married, has one child, and receives only 7s. 6d. per week; that he has to wear irons on his leg, and is not able to earn a penny; will he do his best to get this pension increased; and, in the alternative, has Mr. Lawrence no other remedy than to appeal to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: This man is not receiving treatment for the disability arising from the gunshot wound, for which he is being compensated at the rate mentioned. Treatment was provided in advance as a matter of urgency for another disability in respect of which he made claim to pension, and although after full consideration of all the circumstances it was not found possible to admit this claim, the treatment is still being continued as a special concession. The only right of appeal against this refusal of pension is to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
    Captain BOWYER: Is it not a fact that this man, entirely through a wound received in the War, has now to wear irons on his leg, and how can a man support a wife and child on 7s. 6d. a week?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: This case was only brought to my notice this morning, as my hon. Friend knows. I will look into it personally.

  IRELAND.

    OUTRAGES.
    Mr. STEWARTasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether Michael Sweetman, a Protestant, farmer, residing near Skibbereen, was murdered last February; whether later all the stock was driven off the farm by the Sinn Fein forces; whether, on 21st July, 10 days after the truce began, a quantity of the furniture was stolen from the house; whether, at the end of August, a large body of men, who said they were acting for the Irish Republic, seized and threshed all the corn on the farm and sold it and kept the proceeds; whether, subsequently, Mrs. Sweetman and her son were served with a notice to leave the district within 48 hours and left in consequence; whether, within the last

    573
    fortnight, an auction has been held on the farm by Sinn Fein at which everything was sold; what measures the Government took to protect Mrs. Sweetman against these outrages; and what steps, if any, they have taken on her behalf since this occurrence?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Colonel Sir Hamar Greenwood): This is a most deplorable case. I understand there is some question as to whether Mrs. Sweetman and her son were in fact ordered out of the country by Sinn Fein, but otherwise the facts appear to be as stated. So far as I am aware, no complaint was made to the police, and the circumstances did not come to the knowledge of the authorities until after the event. The fullest investigation is being made, and as soon as the facts are available the Government will make it their business to see that Mrs. Sweetman receives such reparation as is possible for what she has suffered.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GOREasked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of a loyalist farmer in the Kenmare district of County Kerry, who has been raided by Sinn Feiners no fewer than 19 times since the truce, during the course of which raids practically all his cattle, agricultural machinery, and moveable property has been seized by Sinn Fein authorities; and what steps he has taken in this case?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: This is a flagrant and persistent breach of the truce, in which representations to the local Sinn Fein liaison officials have proved ineffective. The matter has now been taken up with the Chief Liaison Officer in Dublin, who has been pressed for full reparation.
    Mr. R. GWYNNEasked the Chief Secretary whether he is in a position to give any information respecting the holding up of a train at Milltown railway station, on the Dublin and South Eastern Railway, on 7th November, by a band of armed men, who plundered the van containing a considerable sum of money?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The police report that this robbery was carried out by two men, one of whom was armed with a revolver. The police are pursuing their enquiries.
    Mr. R. GWYNNEasked the Chief Secretary if his attention has been called to the raid upon Oakfield Park, Raphoe, the residence of Mr. C. V. Stoney, D.L.; and what steps are being taken to apprehend the perpetrators of this outrage?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; as regards the latter part, the police have the matter in hand.
    Mr. GWYNNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman's house was raided by 50 armed men, and that there were only women present, who were treated in a most disgraceful way?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I was not aware that there were 50 armed men, and this is the first time I have heard that any women were treated disgracefully there.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House that any of these breakers of the truce have been brought to trial, and any of them punished? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of these people who have been guilty of gross breaches of the truce have been prosecuted and brought to justice?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On both sides?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: A number of persons have been arrested. The House will remember the case of the kidnapping of Mr. Hunt the other day in Belfast, for which three men are now under arrest, and will stand their trial in the usual way.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Have any been punished yet?
    Mr. RONALD McNEILL: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any estimate as to the number of breakages that the truce will endure before it falls to pieces?

    POLICE FORCES (MALICIOUS INJURIES).
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Chief Secretary what provision has been made, or will be made, for men of the Irish police, forces who, whilst acting in the discharge of their duty, were seriously wounded by Sinn Feiners and the Irish republican army, and who, in consequence of such wounds, had to retire from the force whether a distinction is made between those so wounded before 1st April, 1919.

    575
    and since that date; and whether those so wounded before 1st April, 1919, and who were consequently forced to retire, will receive something more than they would have received had they retired voluntarily?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the full reply which I gave to him on this subject on the 19th April last. The pay of the police was increased as from 1st April, 1919, and consequently pensions awarded in respect of retirement on or after that date are in general based on higher rates of pay than pensions awarded in respect of retirement before that date. Certain changes in the pension scale, apart from the pay on which it is based, have also become operative subsequent to the 1st April, 1919. The men referred to in the last part of the question who were obliged in consequence of non-accidental injury to retire before 1st April, 1919, having served for a period which would have entitled them to retire voluntarily have, in fact, been awarded pensions greater than they would have received had they retired voluntarily on the completion of the same period of service.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that men who in the discharge of their duty have been wounded by Sinn Feiners get no extra allowance or pension to compensate them for those wounds and for the compulsory retirement which follows upon the wounds?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: In these cases the men get awards for malicious injuries. They get cash payments on account of the awards they receive from the County Court Judges, in addition to their pensions.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the majority of cases these awards for malicious injuries which are supposed to be paid by county councils are not paid at all, and that consequently men—of whom I can give the right hon. Gentleman particulars if he requires—who have got these awards, have really got nothing whatever to compensate them for wounds received in the service of the British Government?
    Lieut. - Colonel ARCHER - SHEE: Should not those policemen who were
    576
    wounded before 18th April, 1919, be placed on exactly the same footing as those wounded afterwards?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: In reference to wounded policemen or soldiers, they have the first claim on the money under my control intercepted from the grants to local authorities. I know of no case where a wounded soldier or policeman has not had a cash advance on the amount of his claim.
    Colonel Sir C. YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that these wounded and disabled policemen get the same training allowance and other allowances as men disabled in the Great War?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise.

    TRADE BOYCOTT.
    Mr. LYLE - SAMUELasked the Chief Secretary if during the truce the ban on English products continues to the detriment of our trade and the increase of unemployment; and if the question of raising the ban is being considered by the Conference?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a similar question by the hon. Member for Macclesfield on the 24th October. In regard to the last part, it is obviously impossible for me to give any information regarding particular questions discussed at the Conference.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of suggesting during the Conference an extension of the truce to an economic truce as well as a military truce?
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: What is the use of extending a truce which is only being kept on one side?

    SINN FEIN RAIDS.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER - SHEEasked the Chief Secretary whether the police barracks at Kesh, County Fermanagh, were raided on the evening of 4th November by a number of armed men; whether they took away rifles bombs, and ammunition; and whether h has made inquiries into the matter, and if so, with what result?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative. Immediately news of the raid was received at county headquarters, the police turned out in force and searched the district. The result of this search and of subsequent inquiries supports the conclusion that the perpetrators of the raid came from a distance. The perpetrators have not yet been identified, nor have any of the missing arms been recovered. Inquiries are being pursued.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Were representations made to the liaison officer of the Sinn Feiners?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Immediately this occurred.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: With no results?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: With this result that the Sinn Fein liaison officer is doing his best to assist the Crown to find the perpetrators of this outrage.
    Captain Viscount CURZON: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how he knows that the Sinn Fein officer is doing his best?
    Rear-Admiral Sir R. HALL: If the Sinn Fein liaison officer is fit for his work, surely he should be able to name the people who perpetrated the outrage, because he is nominated by the I.R.A., under which these men work.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Some doubt exists as to who did perpetrate this outrage on the police barracks at Kesh. The Sinn Fein officials have given assistance to the Crown in endeavouring to find the robbers of the barracks and of these arms.
    Sir R. HALL: In saying that some doubt exists, is it wished to convey the impression that this was done by officers of the Crown?
    Mr. MARRIOTTasked the Chief Secretary whether military hutments in Tipperary were raided on the evening of 4th November; whether one or more Lewis guns, a number of service rifles, and a box of bombs and ammunition were removed; and whether the Government are taking any, and, if so, what measures with regard to the matter?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): I have been asked to reply to this question. This theft has been reported, and a military inquiry is pending.

    WORKHOUSE, BALLYSHANNON.
    Lieut. - Colonel ARCHER - SHEE: asked the Chief Secretary whether the workhouse at Ballyshannon has been occupied by the Irish republican army; whether an armed sentry was posted at the gate; whether he can inform the House for what purpose the workhouse has been so occupied; and what steps he has taken in the matter?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Oxford on Monday last, to which at present there is nothing to add.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (RATES DEMANDS).
    Mr. HOWARD GRITTENasked the Chief Secretary whether local authorities in Ireland who have refused to recognise the authority of the Crown are demanding payment of rates from persons who refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Irish, republican administration; and what steps he has taken or proposes to take in the matter?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; as regards the latter part, ample protection is given to any person in Ireland who refuses to pay an illegal demand.
    Mr. GRITTEN: What is the nature of the protection to which the right hon. Gentleman alludes?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: We have a very large armed police force and a much larger military force prepared to assist any person who resists these demands.
    Mr. PENNEFATHER: As a matter of fact, do they give any protection or assistance, or are they prevented from doing so?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: They are not.
    Sir R. HALL: Does this protection consist in protecting the individual summoned, or does it take the form of action against those who are summoning, which is the best protection?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Is it not a fact that the Corporation of Dublin by its Town Clerk regularly summons people before the Sinn Fein Court in Dublin?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: There was a Court of that kind on the day on which the Conference assembled in London. I had to use my discretion as to whether I would break up that Court by force on the day the Conference assembled, or submit the matter to the Sinn Fein representatives with a view to the discontinuance of the Court. I chose the latter course as the better one, and it has been successful. This Court in Dublin does not sit.

    SETTLEMENT (POLICE INTERESTS).
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Prime Minister whether the assurance given by him in August last that in any settlement which may be reached the interests of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police will be secured applies both to the existing members of those two bodies and to the pensioners and retired members of those bodies, many of whom are in great straits in regard to money?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): Certainly; my hon. and learned Friend can rest assured that the interests both of serving members and of pension ex-members of the Irish Police Forces will be fully safeguarded in any settlement which may be arrived at.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD OFFICIALS.
    Mr. GRITTENasked the Chief Secretary whether the inspector and other officials of the Local Government Board in Ireland are discharging duties in connection with local authorities who have given their allegiance to Dail Eireann; and, if so, whether he will explain why officers paid from Government funds should work for such authorities?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The inspector and other officials of the Local Government Board discharge statutory duties under the direction of Government, and they are in no sense officers of the local authorities. The latter part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

    MILITARY OPERATIONS (COST).
    Sir C. TOWNSHENDasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has
    580
    been called to the statement made by the Postmaster-General, speaking at Rushden on the 4th instant, to the effect that it would cost £250,000,000 at least and probably 50,000 lives to conquer Ireland; and whether that statement represents the opinion of the Cabinet?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have not seen the statement made by my right hon. Friend, nor do I think it desirable that I should say more than I did last Monday week at this stage of negotiations which I still hope may prove successful.

    TRUCE (BREACHES).
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the repeated violations in spirit and in letter of the terms of the truce agreed upon with the representatives of Sinn Fein, he will obtain adequate guarantees from the Sinn Fein delegates at the conference now proceeding that any agreement arrived at between them and the Government will be adhered to by their followers in Ireland?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I view with grave concern the breaches of the truce that have occurred in Ireland. They are at once taken up through the machinery established for the purpose, and my colleagues and I are satisfied that the representatives of Sinn Fein with whom we are negotiating are doing their best to secure the observance of the terms of the truce.
    Mr. GWYNNE: In view of the fact that there have been over 500 breaches of the truce in the last three months, will the right hon. Gentleman say how, if these occurrences take place when he has got the delegates over here, he expects them to deliver the goods when the matter is removed from Downing Street to Ireland?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is giving his opinion.
    Viscount CURZONasked the Chief Secretary whether at Strokestown, in the Mullingar area, the military forces are occupying a large private house; whether in the same place a force of the Irish Republican Army, two or three times as strong, is stationed in the workhouse armed with machine guns and a bombing section with armed sentries continually posted; whether this is not a provocative display of force and thereby a breach of the truce, and what steps are

    581
    being taken by the Commander-in-Chief to safeguard such outlying detachments in cases where they are largely outnumbered by the forces of the rebels in the event of the truce coming to an end in this and in other localities.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I only received notice of this question at 11.30 this morning, and am sorry that I have not been able in the time available to obtain the details necessary to enable me to deal with the points raised. The latter part of the question involves purely military considerations. The Commander-in-Chief of the Army in Ireland is fully aware of the situation in that country.
    Viscount CURZON: Will the right hon. Baronet carry out special inquiries in this case? In view of the fact that this information only reached me by post this morning, it was not possible to give earlier notice, but it comes from an officer of the regiment stationed there, and the military have very serious fears for their safety.
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: Following my usual custom, I wired the Noble Lord's question, as I should any other hon. Member's question, to the Commander-in-Chief himself.
    Colonel Sir J. GREIG: Is it usual for officers in His Majesty's Forces to communicate direct to Members of Parliament, instead of direct to their Commander-in-Chief?
    Viscount CURZON: The information did not reach me direct from the officer, but it comes from an officer.

    LOYALISTS (PROTECTION).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that the Irish Republican Army is mobilised with arms and munitions of war in numerous camps throughout Ireland, while the loyalist population has been disarmed, he can give an assurance that adequate military and other arrangements have been made for the protection of the loyal population of Ulster and Southern Ireland in the event of a breakdown in the present negotiations with the Sinn Fein delegates?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is not the question of which I have received notice.
    Sir W. DAVISON: May I say, in explanation, that Mr. Speaker asked me to alter the form of the question, and put the latter part first. I asked Mr. Speaker whether it would be desirable for me to communicate with the Prime Minister, but he said that, as the substance of the question was the same, I need not trouble to do so?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The first words were really preamble. It is the latter part which was the real question.
    The PRIME MINISTER: I only want to point out that that is not the question of which I received notice. I will answer the question of which I received notice.
    As the House has already been informed, it has been agreed that if the negotiations unhappily break down there shall be reasonable notice of the termination of the truce, and His Majesty's Government would, of course, do all in their power to protect life and property. It would not be desirable that I should make any statement as to the measures which the Government have taken, or are prepared to take, in that contingency, which I earnestly hope will not arise.

    NORTFIERN PARLIAMENT (TRANSFERENCE OF POWERS).
    Mr. DEVLINasked the Prime Minister what explanation he has to offer for placing upon the Table an Order in Council transferring powers to the Northern Parliament of Ireland; whether under Clause 72 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, these powers cannot legally be transferred until the two Parliaments of Northern and Southern Ireland are functioning simultaneously, or, failing that, until such time as a substitute form of Government has been set up for the Southern Parliament; and whether, in view of this breach of the Act of 1920, the Order in Council will be withdrawn?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The reasons for adopting this course were explained by me very fully in the course of Debate in this House on Monday, 31st October, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim. If the hon. Member will look at Section 69 of the Act, he will see that express provision is made for the machinery of Orders in Council to accomplish the purposes referred to in that Section.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: How is it that this Order only appeared on the Paper yesterday and that there is no opportunity of a humble Address being presented or any other step taken, in view of the Parliamentary business coming to an end this evening, to discuss the matter further?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I assume that the Order in Council was only drafted, and when it was ready it was placed on the Table of the House. That was only yesterday.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Is it a fact that the Order was made on 31st October, and was not placed on the Table of the House until last night. Is it fair to Parliament that an Order of this character has been allowed to remain for 10 days and is laid on the Table of the House on the eve of the Prorogation of Parliament, thus preventing hon. Members from exercising their constitutional right of discussing it?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think my hon. Friend is quite wrong. He is referring to a totally different Order. I know, as a matter of fact, that the Order was not ready at the end of last week. I had an opportunity of discussing it. It was prepared at the end of last week, and it was adopted at the Council yesterday.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: If the right hon. Gentleman has seen the Order, is he aware that it is a perfectly simple document, which would have occupied no time in its preparation, and is it not very unfair to hon. Members who wish to discuss the matter?
    Mr. DEVLIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability, in view of the present condition of the negotiations, of withholding this Order until the House of Commons is really in a position to form a judgment on the result of these negotiations?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The negotiations can make no difference in so far as this Order is concerned. There is no proposition that the powers of the Northern Parliament should be taken away, and, therefore, before those powers are functioning, it is essential that there should be an Order of this kind, and it is very unfair to the Northern Parliament that its Executive should be paralysed for lack of powers of this kind.
    584
    When the case was presented by my hon. Friend to the House the other day, the general sense of the House was, that in the interests of equity and fair play they should be conferred upon them immediately.
    Mr. DEVLIN: If that be so, why were these powers withheld so long? Is it not really a fact that there is no one in favour of this Parliament at all, not even the Members of it?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is really arguing the matter.

    CIVIL AVIATION.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that at the beginning of last month France had six international air routes in operation; that next year France proposes to create air connections between France and her colonial possessions, communication between Corsica and Tunis being carried out by a seaplane service, and from Marseilles or Toulon to Algiers by airship, as well as aeroplane connections between Oran and Morocco, and between Toulouse and Morocco viâ Spain; and that British aerial transport to-day, from leading the world in 1919, has dropped behind both France and Germany; and whether he will now make a statement as to what is the definite policy of His Majesty's Government towards aviation, both military and civil?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Captain Guest): I am aware of the activities of French aviation, as stated by my hon. and gallant Friend, and it is obvious that the French Government fully realises the importance of aeronautics, both service and civil. But I do not think it is possible, in the form of question and answer, usefully to compare the French, or German, and British positions in this matter. A full statement of the Government's policy in regard to civil aviation has recently been made, and I cannot, at present, add anything to what was then said. If my hon. and gallant Friend wants something further and more comprehensive, I must ask him to wait until the Air Estimates are introduced next Session.
    Mr. RAPER: May I ask my right hon. Friend, who, as we all know, has the

    585
    interests of aviation greatly at heart, whether he will agree to discuss with me the possibility of organising an Imperial Air Service?
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: May it not prove very difficult to regain our ascendancy in the air if the rumour that the Air Ministry is to be done away with prove correct?
    Captain W. BENN: Have any recommendations been made by the Geddes Committee relating to the Air Ministry, and, if so, what are they?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
    Mr. RAPER: May I have a reply to my question?
    Captain GUEST: That arises out of the next question on the Paper.

  EGYPT.

    ZAGHLOUL PASHA.
    Mr. MILLSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that Mr. Young, the chief inspector under the Ministry of the Interior, was present at an interview on 13th October between the Mudir of Assiut, Badreddin Bey, the Controller of Public Security, and a number of members of the Committee of Reception to Zaghloul Pasha, where it was stated that the police commandant had just declared in the presence of the President and five other judges of the Assiut Native Court, and of others, that there were armed men in the house of Mahfouz Pasha and in other places near the landing slip of the steamer on which Zaghloul Pasha was at the time; that he had also announced that other armed bands would arrive by the evening train, and that these men were all to be used to prevent Zaghloul Pasha from landing, to attack him in the streets if they failed to prevent his landing, and to attack the reception tent if he reached it: that the police commandant, on being asked why the police did not prevent this, replied that the Government wished it, and that Badreddin Bey had accused him of being a Zaghloulist because he protested; and will he say whether Mr. Young made any protest against this action?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): I have no information with regard to the alleged incident.
    Mr. SWAN: Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of changing this policy, and is he aware that Zaghloul Pasha, who has the whole of Egyptian opinion behind him—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!")—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not make a speech.
    Mr. SWAN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Zaghloul Pasha is deliberately prevented from visiting various points of welcome in Egypt, and will not the Government consider the advisability of giving him scope to visit any part where the public require him to attend, without menacing him and all his people?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
    Mr. SWAN: On a point of Order. That supplementary question arises out of the question on the Paper.
    Mr. SPEAKER: No. This is about a particular incident.
    Mr. SWAN: Yes, at Assiut.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is asking a general question.
    Mr. MILLS: On a point of Order. May I submit that this question concerns the whole question of the freedom of movement of an individual in the country of Egypt, and, as such, a supplementary question, in my opinion, is in order.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that it is my opinion that counts in this matter.

    CONSTITUTION.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFTasked the, Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that this House has never discussed the desirability of a change in the Constitution of Egypt or given its sanction to any drastic change by vote or otherwise, he will give an undertaking that no commitments are made until Parliament has registered its decision that such changes should be considered?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham on the 27th ultimo.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Is it not the fact that if any commitments are made on this subject without first consulting Parliament, it will be extremely difficult for His Majesty's Government to go back on any such commitments, and may we not ask that no drastic change shall take place until the matter has been placed before this House, as Parliament has never given its sanction to any complete change?
    Mr. MILLS: Is it not the fact, too, that any such agreement must be ratified by the common people?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Undoubtedly Parliament will have to be consulted in any important change in our relations with Egypt. Anything done will be with the sanction of Parliament; but it is quite impossible for the Foreign Secretary to conduct negotiations if every suggestion put forward is to be submitted to Parliament.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are not conducting negotiations with a foreign country, but with a country for which, before the whole world, we have made ourselves responsible; therefore this House should certainly have the right to consider the matter?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have always said so. No doubt the House of Commons has the full right to consider every change that is suggested.
    Mr. SWAN: Is the Prime Minister aware, before any Treaty of Alliance, based on good will, can be arrived at with the Egyptian people, that we can no more bring that alliance about by disregarding the chosen leader of the Egyptians about a Treaty of Alliance—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—I expect I am in the hands of the Speaker.
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is quite a different matter, and does not arise out of the question on the Paper. The hon. Member is now asking quite a separate question.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Has this House ever expressed itself as not satisfied with
    588
    the Government of Egypt, and may we take it that no steps will be taken until this House has expressed its opinion?
    Mr. MILLS: Have there not been various promises by British statesmen since the 'Eighties?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It was clearly stated the other day that Parliament would be consulted.
    Mr. GWYNNE: Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the Government hold that they have the power to negotiate away part of our territory?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: "Ours!"
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Not yours!
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is merely arguing the question.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    STATE ASSISTANCE.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Prime Minister the approximate number of men which it is estimated will be found employment for six days per week for three months and for six months, respectively, for every £1,000,000 granted to local authorities by the Government to assist them in combating unemployment, and the total amount of money which the Government is prepared to allocate for these services during the next six months?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond): As regards the amount to be provided by the State for unemployment, I would refer the hon. Member to the Memorandum accompanying the Supplementary Estimate for Civil Services presented to the House on the 19th October. Pending detailed examination of the various schemes submitted or to be submitted by local authorities, I regret that it is impossible to frame an estimate of the number of men for whom employment will be found for every £1,000,000 of Government grant.
    Mr. THOMSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that, with 1,750,000 unemployed, he has no idea as to the number of men who will be employed by the various schemes which the Government have submitted?
    Sir A. MOND: Not at all. There is an estimate in the Memorandum giving certain information on the subject, but the hon. Member wants the figure for every £1,000,000 spent, and that figure cannot be provided.

    RUSSIA (FAMINE RELIEF).
    Mr. MILLSasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the published declaration of the Russian Government to recognise the debts of the Tsarist Government; whether he is able to state what is now the policy of His Majesty's Government in relation to granting credits for the relief of the famine-stricken population and area in Russia; and what is its present attitude to this urgent matter, having in mind its relation to the international claims of humanity and to the equally pressing question of distress caused in the country by unemployment?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): Correspondence with the Soviet Government about the recognition of Russia's foreign liabilities was laid on the Table of the House on 3rd November. In answer to the last parts of the question, I can add nothing to what was said by the Prime Minister in the House on 16th August last and on 8th November by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the Report stage of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask the Prime Minister whether the recent step forward of the Russian Government towards acknowledging its debts has been met by any corresponding advance by His Majesty's Government, and, if so, what?
    Sir CHARLES TOWNSHEND: Is it not a fact that at the present moment the Russian Bolsheviks have a college at Teheran teaching Indian rebels how to conquer India?
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Has any time been suggested in which these debts should be paid?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a point of Order. When I put a question to the Prime Minister, which you allow,
    590
    Mr. Speaker, as relevant, will you allow that answer to be given and not to be blanketed by irrelevant questions?
    Mr. SPEAKER: If I allow an hon. Member to ask a supplementary question, it is not an assurance that there will be an answer.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether the change in policy of His Majesty's Government, respecting assistance to Russia, was due to representations from the French Government or from Russian emigrés in this country?
    The PRIME MINISTER: There is no change in the policy of His Majesty's Government respecting the Russian famine.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Has there not been a change?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has there been any real need to change since the right hon. Gentleman made his speech in this House advocating that assistance be given to Russia?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As a matter of fact assistance is being given, and my recollection is that at the end of the speech I said that one of the most effective ways of assisting Russia was for her to pay her debts and so establish confidence in the trading countries.
    Captain BENN: Can the right hot. Gentleman give the comparative figures of the assistance given to starving Russia and assistance given to military enterprises against Russia?
    Mr. GRITTEN: Ought not all these forms of charity to begin at home?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Really, that is a matter which we debated only yesterday.

    WASHINGTON CONFERENCE.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Prime Minister whether, apart from the Anglo-Japanese alliance, as published, the British delegates at the Washington Conference will be affected by any treaty, agreement, or alliance affecting the Far East the terms of which have not been published but to which Great Britain is a party; and whether, in view of the

    591
    importance of open diplomacy, he can make our national position clear on this matter?
    The PRIME MINISTER: There is no unpublished treaty, agreement, or alliance which will affect the British delegates at the Washington Conference.
    Major BARNESasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Washington Conference, he will state if there exists any military or naval agreement, understanding, or arrangement of any sort between this country and Japan not arising out of the terms of the Anglo-Japanese alliance, but supplemental thereto?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative.

    HOUSE OF LORDS (REFORM).
    Major BOYD-CARPENTERasked the Prime Minister if it is the determination of the Government to introduce and carry a Bill to reform the Second Chamber during the coming Session; and, if so, will such a Measure take precedence of all other legislation?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I cannot state the order of precedence of Government business next year, but this Measure will be among the first to be taken.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: How do you know you will be here?

    ALBANIA.
    The following question stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. AUBREY HERBERT:
    31. To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Greek censorship controls telegrams between Albania and Constantinople, and that British trade suffers in consequence; and what is the justification for this control?
    Mr. HERBERT: On a point of Order. May I say that a clerical error in this question makes it somewhat ridiculous, and I do not wish to put it in that form.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his question?
    Mr. HERBERT: By your leave, Sir.

    GERMAN WAR CRIMINALS (TRIAL).
    Sir JOHN BUTCHERasked the Prime Minister what is the present position as to the trial of German criminals accused of crimes and offences in their treatment of our prisoners; and whether, in view of the breakdown of the Leipzig trials, this country, in conjunction with France, will demand the execution of the Treaty of Versailles and the surrender of these accused persons for trial?
    The ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir Gordon Hewart): I have been asked to reply. The present position is that Italy, at the end of July last, delivered the dossiers, in the cases which she is sending for trial, to the Supreme Court in Leipzig. Those cases will, I understand, be tried by the Court this autumn. When those cases have been tried, the committee of lawyers of the countries that submitted cases for trial in Leipzig, appointed by the Supreme Council in August last, to report to the Council upon the trials in Leipzig, will be in a position to meet and make their report. Until this report has been received and considered by the Supreme Council, any such action as is suggested would be premature.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: In view of the atrocious crimes that have been proved against the German criminals at the Leipzig Court and the utterly inadequate sentences passed upon them, will the Government use their utmost efforts to bring the remainder of these criminals before a public tribunal?
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Is it not the fact that in every case the Court imposed the highest sentence within their power?
    Sir G. HEWART: I do not think the suggestion contained in the latter question is correct. With regard to the first, I must ask for notice.

    PUNJAB REBELLION, 1919 (TREATMENT OF OFFICERS).
    Sir C. YATEasked the Prime Minister if the attention of the Govern-

    593
    ment has been drawn to the letter of Sir Michael O'Dwyer, in the Press on the 7th instant, exposing the unfair treatment of officers, civil and military, who took an active part in suppressing the Punjab rebellion of 1919; and, in view of the additional facts brought out in that letter, if he can state what steps the Government intend to take to safeguard the future prospects and to prevent the further persecution of those officers, British and Indian, who have been and are so seriously affected by the orders issued, as shown on page 50 of the Government's Review of India in 1920?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am sorry that I am not in a position to answer this question. I have not had time to go into it. I will circulate an answer in the course of the next 24 hours.
    Sir C. YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman also look into the case of the High Court judge who was compelled to retire because he did not feel able to meet the man he had sentenced to transportation for life as a Minister of the Province?

    HUNGARY.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether proper pressure is being brought to bear upon Hungary to insist on the ineligibility for the throne of Hungary of all the Hapsburg aspirants, including Joseph and Albrecht, as well as Karl; and what measure of disbandment of the Hungarian army and irregulars is being enforced by either the Supreme Council or the Little Entente?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Allied Powers pointed out to the Hungarian Government that the law depriving the Hapsburg Dynasty of the rights of succession would not apparently exclude the possibility of the election of a Hapsburg as King at some future date. The Hungarian Government have now given an undertaking to conform to the Declaration of the Allied Powers of February, 1920, to the effect that the restoration of any member of the Hapsburg Dynasty could not be tolerated. They have further declared that they will not proceed to a solution of the question of the Hungarian throne without previous consultation with the Allied Powers and without obtaining their consent.
    594
    The work of disarming Hungary in accordance with the Treaty of Trianon is proceeding, but progress has been inevitably delayed by recent events. The States forming the Little Entente are not under the Treaty entitled to representation on the Commission of Control.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the reported recognition of Admiral Horthey given in yesterday's papers is real or not?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think we know.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: We know nothing about it.
    Sir H. COWAN: Is this attitude in regard to Hungary considered consistent with the Hungarian right to self-determination?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: There were pledges after the War!
    The PRIME MINISTER: There are difficulties in preserving peace in that quarter of the world; and there are many things which must be taken into account. That is why the Powers are intervening. I am afraid if Hungary took a certain course it might mean war, and that is the last thing that the world wants now.
    Sir C. YATE: If the Hungarians ask for a King, is there any objection to them having one?
    HON. MEMBERS: "Yes" and "No!"

    AIR MINISTRY AND ROYAL AIR FORCE.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Prime Minister if His Majesty's Government intends to abolish both the Air Ministry and the Air Force as a separate service?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No such decision has been taken by His Majesty's Government.

    SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTIONS.
    Major KELLEYasked the Lori Privy Seal whether, to husband Parliamentary time, steps can be taken to ration supplementary questions next Session in the same manner as starred questions, so that any Member asking, say,

    595
    one starred question and three supplementary questions shall be deemed to have exhausted his right to put oral questions that day?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): My hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion does not appear to be practicable, but may I be permitted to express the hope that hon. Members, when asking supplementary questions, will show consideration for the rights of their colleagues?
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Members of this House are already on half rations in relation to supplementary questions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, I have not perceived there was any limit to the supplementary questioning.
    Dr. MURRAY: Is it not a fact that only some of them receive half-coupons nowadays?
    Rear-Admiral Sir R. HALL: Would the right hon. Gentleman define the rights of the back-benchers in this House?
    Mr. DEVLIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only way in which we can get the real truth is by putting supplementary questions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That seems to me to be a gratuitously, offensive suggestion. I would beg the House to observe, in the first place, that they have placed a limit on the time to be occupied by questions; and, secondly, there has been placed, with general assent, a limit on the number of questions which may appear on the Paper to be asked on any one day. The object of that arrangement is to spread the time available in a reasonable way amongst the different Members of the House. If supplementary questions grow in number, as the number of questions on the Paper are limited, the purpose for which the limitation of questions on the Paper was undertaken is defeated; and every additional supplementary question and every supplementary question put without necessity is a reduction of the rights of other hon. Members.
    Mr. DEVLIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a suggestion which I
    596
    made last Session to his predecessor, that there should be another half-an-hour given to questions, especially as they really are the only important business in the House?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I dissent from the premise of the hon. Member, and I do not think that his remedy would be a good one. If we gave another half-an-hour, I am convinced that in a comparatively short time exactly the same difficulty would arise.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE: Will the right hon. Gentleman defer any alteration until after the General Election?
    Mr. CHAMIBERLAIN: That seems to me to be an unnecessary supplementary question, because I am not proposing any alteration.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    WHITLEY COUNCIL.
    Lieut. - Colonel POWNALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is yet in a position to say what action has been decided with regard to the inclusion in the Whitley Council, dealing with the Civil Service, of some non-official members?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): No, Sir. The matter is still under consideration.
    Mr. GRITTEN: As His Majesty's Government have now had this matter under consideration for over four months, can the hon. Gentleman say when a decision will be arrived at?
    Mr. YOUNG: I am afraid I cannot estimate the time.

    SALARIES.
    Viscount CURZONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will undertake that in any readjustment of civil servants' salaries which may be made, the remuneration paid to temporary ex-civil servants shall not be less than that paid to permanent civil servants who are doing similar work?
    Mr. YOUNG: Detailed comparison between the remuneration of permanent civil servants and of staff temporarily employed on the basis of the duties

    597
    severally performed is not feasible as a basis for determining adjustments of pay. The remuneration and grading of the two groups have been fixed on different systems, which preclude detailed comparison. To illustrate the fact that changes in the remuneration of either group have not necessarily coincided hitherto with changes in the remuneration of the other, I may mention that the considerable reduction made in the remuneration of permanent civil servants on 1st September last did nit extend to the remuneration of the temporary staff. An adjustment of the remuneration of the latter to altered conditions is now under consideration.
    Viscount CURZON: Does the hon. Member's answer mean that temporary civil servants performing the same work as the permanent civil servants are not necessarily paid the same salaries?
    Mr. YOUNG: Generally.

    NAVAL OFFICERS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
    Viscount CURZONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can make any statement before the House rises as to the decision of the Government in the matter of a marriage allowance to officers of the Royal Navy?
    Mr. YOUNG: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer regrets that he is not yet in a position to make any statement on this question.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BUDGET).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to give the cost to the State of the last British delegation to the League of Nations at Geneva; what is the estimated cost of the League for 1921–22; what share is to be paid by Great Britain and what share by the other members of the League; can he say whether all these shares have been paid and, if not, what steps are being taken to recover the amounts due; what proportion of the total amount is paid to the International Labour Office; what is the salary paid to the chairman, M. Albert
    598
    Thomas; and what are the accumulated emoluments paid to Sir Eric Drummond?
    Mr. YOUNG: As the answer is rather long, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the answer:
    1. As regards the first part of the question I understand that the cost of the British delegation at the recent meeting of the League of Nations at Geneva was about £3,580, though final figures are net available. This sum does not include the cost of the Dominions' delegations.
    2. The Budget of the League is framed on the calendar year, not on the British financial year. The Estimate for the League's expenditure for the calendar year 1921 was:

    Gold francs

    21,250,000

    and for calendar year 1922 was (gold francs at 21 to the £)

    20,873,945

    3. For the estimated cost of the contribution of the United Kingdom I may refer the hon. Member to the Civil Service Estimates 1921–22, Class V, Vote 5, from which he will see that provision is made of £77,000 as our share of expenses in 1921–22 as against £40,000 in 1920–21.
    The sum of £77,000 was arrived at on the original calculation basis of the shares of the contributing countries, as prescribed by Art. 6 of the Covenant, under which the countries paid in the same proportion as they subscribe to the Postal Union.
    Under this system the United Kingdom, with 11 other countries, paid on the basis of 25 units, and our share was 5·16 per cent. of the whole. A new system of calculating the shares of the participating countries has now been adopted, which purports to class the countries according to their ability to pay.
    This will raise the British contribution to 9·21 per cent. of the whole; and if (as I believe) its adoption has been made retrospective may necessitate increased provision in 1921–22. The new total is £96,000. Under the new system, which is provisional, pending revision of the Covenant, France and the United Kingdom pay each 90/977ths; China, India, Italy, and Japan each 65/977ths; Argentine, Brazil, Canada, Spain, Roumania each 35/977ths, and the other countries in proportion.
    4. There has been considerable delay in the payment of contributions, and the Treasury have written a letter calling attention to the necessity for more regularity of payment. This letter, I understand, was brought to the notice of the Assembly at its recent meeting and efforts are being made to induce the defaulting countries to pay.
    5. The estimated expenses of the International Labour Office were:

    For 1921–7,010,000 gold francs (32·98 per cent. of the total estimated expenditure).

    For 1922–6,135,610 gold francs (29·39 per cent.).

    6. The salary assigned to Mr. Albert Thomas amounts, I understand, to gold francs 72,000 per annum.
    7. The Secretary, Sir E. Drummond, receives:

    Salary

    …

    £4,000

    Frais de representation

    …

    2,500

    House allowance

    …

    1,000

    His original salary was 200,000 gold francs (of which two-fifths were allocated to salary and three-fifths to allowances), plus a house. He has never, however, been provided with a house.

    ENEMY RAIDS (REPARATION COMMISSION).
    Mr. GRITTENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Royal Commission appointed to investigate the claims for reparation for damage in this country due to enemy action commenced its sittings; how many sittings it has held; how many claims it has examined and has yet to examine; and in how many cases has it advised that compensation should be granted?
    Mr. YOUNG: The Royal Commission commenced its sittings in the latter part of August and has held six meetings. I understand that at those meetings the Commission has examined a number of typical cases for the purpose of determining general principles with a view to dealing with individual cases in the light of such general principles. The number of claims already received to date is 43,000.
    Mr. GRITTEN: Can the hon. Gentleman say when the cases will be reached
    600
    of the victims of the German bombardment of the Hartlepools in December, 1914, and is he aware that these victims have now waited nearly seven years?
    Mr. YOUNG: I am afraid I cannot answer that question without inquiry.
    Mr. GRITTEN: Will they have to wait another seven years?

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.

    FRENCH AND GERMAN EXPORTS.
    Mr. MOSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what portion of the £14,056 of revenue collected under Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act from 1st October to 28th October was paid in respect of goods imported from France?
    Mr. YOUNG: The amount of the duty levied during the period in question on goods consigned from France was £1,563.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the effect of having imposed a flat rate of duty on goods imported from Germany, regardelss of fluctuations in the value of the mark, is that goods now bought in Germany will pay only about a quarter of the duty payable on goods purchased at the time of the passing of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, he will consider the advisability of adopting a sliding scale of duty?
    Mr. MOSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the flat-rate duty of 33⅓ per cent. imposed under the Safeguarding of Industries Act has proved as effective in respect of imports from Germany, since the depreciation of the mark to 1,100 to the £, as was anticipated when this Act was passed into Law during a period when the mark stood at 240 to the £; whether he will state the rate of duty now necessary to counteract the bounty on exports derived from the difference between the external and internal value of Germany's currency; and how he proposes under the Act to deal with fluctuations of exchange of this nature such as have occurred in nearly every European country since the passing of the Act?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I have been asked to answer these questions. The imposition of a rate of duty varying with fluctuations in the exchanges was fully considered before the introduction of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill, but proved on examination to present grave difficulties. In view of the shortness of the time during which Part I of the Act has been in operation, and the fact that no Order has as yet been made under Part II, it would obviously be premature for me to express any opinion as to its effect.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Does the hon. Gentleman then state that the Act is as effective now when the mark is in the neighbourhood of 1,100 to the £ as was anticipated at the passing of the Act when the mark stood at 240 to the £?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: No, I did not state anything of that kind.
    Captain BENN: Is the Act achieving the purpose for which it was introduced and passed by this House?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Yes, I am quite satisfied that the Act will prove effective and useful, and it is already doing so. All the difficulties which the hon. Member is presenting now were present to our minds when we introduced the Bill, and it was never suggested that the German exchange was not likely to fluctuate or depreciate, but it was argued and proved that it would be impracticable to have a duty which varied every day of the week with every variation in the market.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Is it not a fact that the protection afforded by this Bill is in inverse ratio to the necessity for it?

    SUDAN.
    Major GLYNasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government have been able to come to any decision in regard to the present financial position of the Sudan; whether an engineer was sent out at the instance of the Government to report upon the condition and probable cost of completing the Gezireh Dam; whether that engineer has now returned and has made his report; and whether, in view of
    602
    the fact that a decision in regard to this matter is one of great importance to the trade of this country and the future of the Sudan, since all development work in that country is suspended until the future of the work on the dam is settled, a definite statement will be made without delay?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: With regard to the first and last parts of the question, I have nothing to add to the written reply which I gave to the first of the three questions which the hon. and gallant Member asked me on this subject on the 9th instant. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative, the third part does not therefore arise.
    Major GLYN: Does the hon. Gentleman realise the need for an early decision in view of the suspension of all development work?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: That consideration is well in the mind of the Government.

    MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY (LECTURERS).
    Mr. W. GREENWOODasked the President of the Board of Education if Professor Ramsay Muir, M.A., the prospective Free Trade candidate for Rochdale, is giving lectures in politics at the University of Manchester; whether any of the cost of these lectures will be borne by the State; and, if so, how much?
    Mr. YOUNG: The programme of lectures at Manchester University is a question for decision by the governing body alone. The cost of such lectures is borne by the State only in so far as block grants are made annually from public funds, on the recommendation of the University Grants Committee, to this university, as to other similar institutions in the United Kingdom.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman see that so far as he has power no lecturer shall be penalised for his political views?
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Is there any truth in the statement that the holding of certain political views disqualifies any one holding a lectureship, the cost of which is borne by the State?
    Mr. YOUNG: I should like to say that if there be any implication that the Treasury or the Government interfere in any respect with the discretion of the governing body of this or any other university it is wholly erroneous.
    Mr. HOPKINSON: Is it not the fact that if the Government, as a Government, minded its own business, there would be no confusion between politics and economics?

    SEDITIOUS SPEECHES.
    Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons have been arrested, prosecuted, or, if aliens, deported during the past year for seditious or revolutionary acts or speeches?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): I cannot give exact figures, but more than 30 persons have been proceeded against for speeches inciting to violence, either by the Director of Public Prosecutions or by the police acting on his advice. There is another question on the Paper dealing with the subject of deportations.

    CINEMA FILMS (CENSORSHIP).
    Sir C. YATEasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to resolutions framed by various associations throughout the country urging that a board of censors of cinema films be appointed by Government; and, if so, what action does he propose to take in the matter, as the present board of voluntary censors of cinematograph films established by the trade has no statutory powers?
    Mr. SHORTT: A few resolutions on the subject have been sent to me, but I am not aware that there is any strong public feeling in favour of the Government undertaking the censorship of films. Local authorities are given by the existing law considerable powers for the regulation of the cinema exhibitions in their districts, and though the present system of control is not without its difficulties, some local authorities do exercise, I believe, a close control over the films exhibited in their areas. It is true that the Board of Film Censors have no statutory
    604
    powers, but the High Court, in a recent decision, have expressed the view that it, is open to local authorities to make it a condition of a licence that films which have not been passed by the Board shall not be exhibited without the express consent of the local authority.
    Mr. RAPER: Is it not the fact that the control exercised by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor) and his assistants is entirely satisfactory to the trade, and has the full confidence of the public?
    Sir C. YATE: It is not a question of the trade. It is a question of the leaders of public opinion seeing to the proper education of the children. That is what is required to be satisfied. Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that that is done?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have said that the matter really rests with the local authorities who have the necessary powers.
    Mr. INSKIP: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the interests of the trade and of the public are not identical in this matter?

    ALIENS.
    Mr. JESSONasked the Home Secretary if he is aware of the discontent caused amongst that section of the workers who are being thrown out of employment by those foreigners who obtain admission into this country through the leakages of the Aliens Restriction Act by describing themselves as tourists, and, when settled, obtaining employment at the expense of our own unemployed workers, and others who gain admission by describing themselves as followers of occupations that are not exempt under the Aliens Restriction Act, and then, having gained admission, change their occupations to those that are exempt; if he is aware of the bitterness against all foreigners which this unfair competition is causing during the present period of abnormal unemployment; and whether, having regard to the present number of our own unemployed, which is approximately 2,000,000, and the fact that during the next five years openings for permanent employment must be found for at least another 1,000,000 workers owing to the growth of the population and the need

    605
    for providing for them before considering the claims of foreigners, he will consider the advisability of amending the Aliens Restriction Act so as to deal with all who obtain admission into this country by making these false statements?
    Mr. SHORTT: The Miens Order requires that all aliens coming to the United Kingdom to take up employment must be in possession of a Ministry of Labour permit, and aliens who come here for that purpose without such a permit are refused leave to land. It is possible that a few aliens may succeed in evading this requirement, but I am satisfied that there is no such widespread evasion as is suggested in the hon. Member's question, and that aliens are not entering this country in large numbers to compete with British labour. Any alien who makes a false statement or false representation to an immigration officer is liable to prosecution under the Order; but it is not always possible to secure sufficient evidence to justify proceedings being taken. I do not think that this difficulty could be removed by any amendment of the Aliens Order.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The right hon. Gentleman, replying to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for the Melton Division (Sir C. Yate), refused to answer a part of it, as to the number of aliens who had been deported, on the ground that the point was raised in another question on the Paper. As that question has not been put, I desire to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman ought not now to answer the whole of my hon. Friend's question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The fault, if there be one, is on the part of the absent Member. At the same time, as it is one half of the other question, I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will answer it.
    Mr. SHORTT: In answer to my hon. Friend's supplementary question I would say that, out of 314 aliens deported since the beginning of the present year for a variety of reasons, four were deported on account of activities which may be classed as revolutionary. No doubt others among them, though deported for such offences as landing without leave, etc., were in fact revolutionaries, and others of the same class are excluded by refusing them permission to land.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does not that show that the whole of this political police force is absolutely unnecessary?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question on the paper.

    MOTOR VEHICLES, BELGRAVE SQUARE.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Home Secretary whether he will give the police instructions to insist on slow driving in regard to motor-driven vehicles at the extremely dangerous corners of Belgrave Square?
    Mr. SHORTT: The police have general instructions to check dangerous driving, particularly at places where special danger exists. The case of Belgrave Square has been gone into, and the Commissioner does not consider any further instructions in regard to it are needed.
    Sir J. D. REES: Will the right hon. Gentleman invite the Commissioner to cross the corners of the square? Is he aware there has been recently a serious accident there, and that hon. Members who live in the locality—and there are several—cannot come to this House without risking their lives?
    Viscount CURZON: Will the right hon. Gentleman also extend his inquiries to the City of Nottingham?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have made inquiries. I understand that in the last 12 months there have been 14 slight collisions and one rather serious.
    Sir J. D. REES: In Belgrave Square only?
    Mr. SHORTT: Yes.
    Sir J. D. REES: Is not that sufficient to justify what I ask for? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there may be accidents among people who keep their affairs to themselves and do not tell the police?

    DOCK REGULATIONS (UNPRO TECTED HATCHWAYS).
    Mr. WIGNALLasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the increased number of fatal accidents

    607
    occurring on board ship, loading or discharging in docks, resulting from unprotected hatchways; if he is aware that these accidents arise through neglect of the dock regulations; and will he take the necessary steps to see that the regulations are strictly observed?
    Mr. SHORTT: My attention has not been called to any increase in the number of fatal accidents due to unprotected hatchways. The number of such accidents during the present year has not yet been separately tabulated, but the total number of fatal accidents in docks is less than half that for the corresponding period of 1920. As stated in the recently published Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories, greatly increased attention has been given to docks, and I may add that four prosecutions for unprotected hatchways or openings have already been taken this year.
    Mr. WIGNALL: Has not the right hon. Gentleman had reports submitted to him showing an increased number of fatal accidents arising from this cause; has he not had complaints of the total disregard of the dock Regulations with regard to hatchways being protected, and has he not been applied to to take action against certain shipowners for this very offence of allowing hatchways to be unprotected?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have already said that my attention has not been called to any increased number of accidents, but increased attention has been paid to this source of danger. Four prosecutions have actually been instituted, and no doubt each of those cases involved complaints such as my hon. Friend refers to.

    SCOTLAND YARD (SPECIAL INTELLIGENCE BRANCH).
    Sir J. REMNANTasked the Home Secretary whether it has been the custom for the Assistant Commissioner in charge of the Special Intelligence Branch of New Scotland Yard to prepare a weekly Report for the use of the Government; and whether it was furnished to the Home Secretary for communication to the Cabinet or whether it was sent to the Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police?
    Mr. SHORTT: Yes, Sir. The weekly report in question was sent to me for
    608
    communication to the Cabinet. An early copy was also sent direct by the Assistant Commissioner to the Commissioner.
    Sir J. REMNANT: Were these weekly reports signed by Sir Joseph Byrne?
    Mr. SHORTT: No weekly reports were signed by him.
    Sir J. REMNANT: Nor any report?
    Mr. SHORTT: Certainly no report.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary if he can now state the annual present cost of the special branch of Scotland Yard recently under the control of Sir Basil Thomson; whether this includes expenditure from Secret Service funds and, if so, what proportion is so expended; what was the cost of this special branch last year; what salary and allowances did Sir Basil Thomson receive as head of the branch; and what pension is he receiving?
    Mr. SHORTT: The pay, allowances, travelling and other expenses of the police officers and clerical staff employed in the branch referred to cost approximately £70,000 per annum, and the corresponding figure for the last financial year was about the same with the addition of the police bonus. Sir Basil Thomson received a salary of £2,000, and his pension has been fixed at £1,120, to commence on the 1st December, when he retires and ceases to draw salary. The above figures do not include expenditure from secret service funds, as to which, in accordance with the recognised practice, I cannot give information.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it the fact that this expenditure of £70,000 has only resulted in the deportation of four revolutionary aliens in the last year, and, in the interests of economy, could not this branch be cut down?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question on the paper.

  METROPOLITAN POLICE.

    COURT CELLS.
    Major BARNETTasked the Home Secretary whether, having regard to the death of a woman named Maud Moore in the cells at West Ham police court, he will reconsider the desirability of grant-

    609
    ing permission to the women justices of the peace of London to inspect the cells attached to the Metropolitan police courts and to inquire into the conditions under which women are detained there?
    Mr. SHORTT: My attention has been drawn to this case. I am considering the suggestion in the latter part of the question.
    Major BARNETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to spend a night at the West Ham Court?
    Mr. SHORTT: Not unless it is necessary.

    MAJOR E. H T. PARSONS.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Home Secretary under what circumstances Major E. H. T. Parsons, C.B.E., was removed from his position as Chief Constable in the Metropolitan Police after having completed 15 years' satisfactory service in the force; whether the termination of this officer's service has, in accordance with the usual practice, been notified in the Police Orders; and, if not notified in this way, what was the reason for this deviation from the usual practice?
    Mr. SHORTT: Early in September, 1918, immediately after General Macready's appointment as Commissioner, Major Parsons tendered his resignation. The Commissioner asked Major Parsons to remain for a short time at his post until he (the Commissioner) had time to look round, and afterwards by letters of the 4th and 12th October he intimated his acceptance of the resignation. It is not necessary to announce the resignation of a Chief Constable in Police Orders, nor is it the usual practice to do so except in notifying the appointment of his successor. In this case the post remained vacant for several months, and the duties and conditions attaching to it had been materially altered when Superintendent Morgan was appointed in March, 1919. For this reason the words, "in place of Major Parsons," did not appear in the notification of the appointment.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this officer has entirely denied that he resigned—that he has stated that he offered to resign but
    610
    that the offer was not accepted, and that he has repeatedly denied, both by letter and verbally, that he did resign; and does the right hon. Gentleman think it fair that this officer, who has rendered such good service, both previously in the Army and also for 15 years in the Metropolitan Police, should be sent off in this way without pension?
    Mr. SHORTT: I am quite aware than; Major Parsons has denied that he resigned, but his denial is based on the construction of letters, and I have gone into it myself very carefully, and am satisfied that he did resign.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Can the right hon.. Gentleman refer to any letter in which Major Parsons gave in his resignation, and, if so, what is its date?
    Mr. SHORTT: No, Sir, his resignation was given verbally. He does not deny that he gave it verbally.
    Mr. NEWBOULD: Did he do it over the telephone, as is customary?

    MOTOR VEHICLES (REGISTRATION).
    Mr. ATKEYasked the Home Secretary how many prosecutions have taken place in Staffordshire in respect of alleged offences by motor manufacturers and dealers against the registration Regulations affecting general identification marks, and how many of the same have been dismissed; and whether the activity of the Staffordshire police in this respect arises from the instructions of his Department?
    Mr. SHORTT: I am informed by the Chief Constable that 104 prosecutions have been ordered (83 by the county council as registration authority and 21 by the Chief Constable). Fourteen have been dismissed. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. ATKEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these prosecutions have been mainly directed against responsible firms, and why is this cumbrous method adopted to enforce Regulations of this kind?
    Mr. SHORTT: I understand that all those who have been prosecuted have

    611
    broken the law, and that is the reason why they were proceeded against.
    Mr. ATKEY: Are we to understand that this system which is being adopted in Staffordshire is going to be carried out throughout the country?
    Viscount CURZON: Why is it necessary to take such action in the case of Staffordshire and no other county?
    Mr. SHORTT: I must ask for notice of that question.
    Viscount CURZON: I asked you that the other day.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that representations have been made on this matter to the Ministry of Transport, and has he received notice of those representations; or would he be prepared to receive a deputation himself on the matter?
    Mr. SHORTT: I do not know about the Ministry of Transport, but if anyone wishes to see me I shall be pleased to see them.
    Mr. ATKEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that every one of these prosecutions costs these firms something like and is that reasonable in view of the fact that a man can jump on his wife for £1?

    REGENT'S PARK.
    Major BARNETTasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, in view of the widespread unemployment, he will consider the desirability of repairing forthwith the pathways of the outer circle of Regent's Park?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. GILMOUR (for the First Commissioner of Works): The pathways to which the hon. Member presumably refers are maintained by the Crown Estate Paving Commissioners out of rates levied on Crown houses within the park. I understand that, owing to the exceptional drought, the surface has become loose, but that as soon as there is sufficient rain the paths will be solidified by rolling.

    ITALY AND ANGORA.
    Sir MARTIN CONWAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have any information respecting the presence of an Italian representative, named Tuozzi, at Angora, and whether there is reason to suppose that the Italian Government have any intention of following a recent example in concluding a separate agreement with the Angora Government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, the Italian Minister for Foreign Affairs has categorically denied that there is any truth in this suggestion, and has assured His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome that His Majesty's Government will be kept informed of everything that passes at Angora.

    CILICIA (CHRISTIAN POPULATION).
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is a fact that the Armenians, Greeks, and other Christians in Cilicia have been given twenty days' notice in which to leave the country, which is to be occupied by the Kemalists on the departure of the French; and whether the British Government will not see their way, either by remonstrance or co-operation with the Governments of the Allies, to prevent the carrying out of such articles of the Angora contract, so as to save these people from the alternatives of exile or of massacre?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: His Majesty's Government have no other information beyond a statement, originating in Athens, which is reproduced in this morning's Press. They have on many occasions reminded the French Government of their obligations towards the minorities in Cilicia, and have very recently pointed out to them that the safeguards afforded by the Franklin-Bouillon Agreement do not appear adequately to satisfy these obligations. The reply of the French Government to these representations has not yet been received. It may be noted that the

    613
    French High Commissioner recently concluded an interview published in the Constantinople Press with a serious admonition to Turkey regarding her future treatment of the minorities and her fulfilment of the Treaty. It was by this, he added, that the world would judge her, and any further outrages would raise an outcry against her in Europe.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: With reference to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's answer, is there any instance of any admonition delivered by any Government to the Turkish Government against their perpetual policy of rapine and massacre being observed?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I should like to make certain of that.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: Would the hon. Gentleman represent to the French Government that, whatever is to be done eventually, nothing of this hurried character, like 20 days' or any such short notice to people to leave, should be done at present?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I am afraid I cannot add anything to the answer I have already given.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the hon. Gentleman consider it?

    TRADE FACILITIES BILL (ADVISORY COMMITTEE).
    Mr. GERSHOM STEWARTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to inform the House of the composition of the Advisory Committee to be set up under Clause 1 of the Trade Facilities Bill?
    Mr. YOUNG: Yes, Sir. I am glad to be able to announce that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now received the acceptance of the gentlemen whom he asked to serve and that the Committee will accordingly be composed as follows:

    Sir Robert A. Kindersley, G.B.E. (Chairman), President of the National Savings Association and ex-Chairman of the National Savings Committee.

    Sir William Plender, G.B.E.

    614

    Lieut.-Colonel George Schuster, C.B.E., M.C., Chief Assistant to the Organiser of International Credit Scheme of the League of Nations.

    The name of the Secretary, and the p1ace of business of the Committee, will be announced later. Meanwhile Sir Robert Kindersley desires that all communications on the Committee's business may be addressed for the present to him, c/o The Treasury, Whitehall, London, S.W.1. The Committee wish it to be announced at once that they have made it a rule that no personal interviews will be given by the Committee.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  4.0 P.M.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I do not know if the Government intend to offer any further explanation on the Third Reading of this Bill, but, as apparently they have no remarks to make until some speeches are made from this side, perhaps I may ask for some little information as to certain items of expenditure. I refer, in particular, to the extraordinary statement made by the Home Secretary, that the Special Branch of the police, which was referred to a little time ago, costs a sum of £70,000 per annum, and that the net result of this expenditure on this secret political police has been to deport exactly four aliens of revolutionary tendencies.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. and gallant Member show me where he finds that in these Estimates?
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Yes, there is in the Schedule of the Bill the expenditure for the calling out of the Defence Force and for the embodiment of the armed forces at the time of the coal dispute. We were then told by the Government that was necessary because of certain revolutionary agitations by aliens.
  Mr. SPEAKER: That has nothing to do with the police.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I do not want in any way to dispute your ruling, but might I raise the question of the inadequate steps taken by the Government to deal.with the alleged agitation, thus causing the unrest., which we were told was the justification for an expenditure of over £7,000,000.
  Mr. SPEAKER: This is not the ordinary Appropriation Bill which includes the Home Secretary's salary. That was disposed of in August last. This
  686
  is quite a limited matter, and deals only with the Votes passed in Supply since we resumed the Session in October.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Then I will immediately leave that subjest, which I do with great regret, but I think I am in order in referring to another matter which was raised at Question Time and which directly deals with the question of trade facilities. Why have the Government taken no steps either to meet the approaches of the Russian Government with regard to the recognition of the Russian debt? During the Second and Third Readings of the Trade Facilities Bill this matter was raised, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department stated that the Bill would not apply to Russia and that export credits would not be extended to Russia because the Russian Government had refused to recognise her obligations.
  Mr. SPEAKER: There is no mention in this Bill of the Export Credits Scheme. That was done in the Trade Facilities Bill itself.
  Major BARNES: On that point of Order. My hon. and gallant Friend was raising the question as to what advance had been made by the Government in respect of the advances made by the Russian Government. The discussion of that question does really come within the scope of this Debate, because there is a sum of £100,000 in this Bill in connection with certain medical stores, and in the discussion on that Vote the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs referred to the advance that had been made by the Russian Government as material to that discussion.
  Sir GODFREY COLLINS: May I recall to your memory that there was a footnote to the Supplementary Estimate of £5,500,000, showing that the sum granted to His Majesty was partly for the purpose of the Trade Facilities Bill, which was to grant credits between this country and other countries.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is quite true that at an earlier stage when we were in Committee of Supply a much wider range was allowed on the Vote of £100,000 for medical stores for Russia; but, when we come to the Third Reading of the Bill, we are confined to what is actually in the Bill, and that is the ruling that I have given.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Should I be in order in discussing the public declarations of the Government as to the way the Bill is to be administered and as to whether these facilities are to be extended to Russia?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The Trade Facilities Bill was its own Finance Bill, the Measure being founded on a Money Resolution. That is why it is not covered by this Bill.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I apologise for my lack of experience in discussing a Consolidated Fund Bill of a limited nature. I think this is the first time in this Parliament that we have had such a Bill. There is a sum of money in the Schedule for the maintenance of the Defence Force and the Naval Reserves who were called out at the time of the coal stoppage. Shall I be in order in discussing that expenditure?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Certainly not as to the merits of it, because that was discussed by the House earlier in the Session and was then approved and disposed of.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I imagine I should be in order in discussing the amount of money, apart from the merits of calling out these forces, and in showing that the Government are open to censure for keeping them embodied for such a length of time and thus involving such an enormous expenditure. I would like to make a protest against the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who pointed out that we should be forced to borrow money owing to the serious state of the finances of the country, and to suggest that we might now address ourselves with more composure to the consideration of this great expenditure and bring some measure of censure to bear on the Home Office, the Admiralty, and the officers responsible for keeping these forces embodied very much longer than they were required. There was some small degree of disorder and certainly a great deal of unrest in the early days of that coal stoppage—I do not want to rake up old quarrels, though I should very much like to express my opinion as to the responsibility for the whole trouble—but after the first few days, when hon. Members will undoubtedly say that the Government were fully justified in calling out every available disciplined man, and when the dispute was dragging on
  688
  its weary course with a remarkable absence of disorder and with great civic calm, I do suggest that the Government were reckless and improvident in keeping these forces embodied for such a length of time. I myself raised the question of the great inconvenience caused to business men who were kept embodied against their will. We had, for example, an Air Force in the South of England composed almost entirely of educated skilled men in responsible positions. They were certainly not required for the purpose of aviation, and yet were kept embodied and paid the high rates of pay that the Air Force officials receive. There they were kept kicking their heels for weeks in idleness. The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) shakes his head, but I raised the question, and I believe, partly as the result of my protestations, a great many of these men were eventually released.
  Mr. HOPKINSON: Forgive me, I was not paying any attention to what the hon. and gallant Member was saying.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I apologise for supposing that the hon. Gentleman was here for the purpose of legislation and looking after the interests of his constituency. I might have known that the expenditure of a mere £7,000,000 would not be of great interest to him. We now are in the position of men who, after a night of orgy, are faced with a very long bill, but I hope, like sensible men who, in the morning, see things in a different light and view matters in a more composed atmosphere, we shall examine the items of this very heavy bill. We know that we have not the money to pay the bill; we have to borrow money to do that; we have to pawn something. We have to raise money on the country's credit in order to pay the restaurant keeper who presents our bill on this occasion. The bill is a needlessly long one. In case other unfortunate events occur and necessitate the calling up of the reserve forces, I think the House should take the opportunity of warning the Government that they must in future consider the cost a little more and not be so stampeded by wild panic and fright. The calling up of that Defence Force gave employment to a number of people who otherwise would have been without it.

  689
  It was one means found for giving work to ex-soldiers, but that is the only good thing that can be said for it. The embodiment of a force of that kind meant the creation of a vested interest. My own experience in the North of England with these men—
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member must have forgotten my ruling. I reminded him that the embodiment of this force was discussed, and authorised by the House when it was first proposed, and each time it was continued in the early part of this year.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I was not discussing the advisability of calling it up, but merely the length that it was embodied and the consequent expenditure. I have made my protest, and I want to make it clear that in voting against the Third Reading of this Bill I do not wish to limit the Government's activities in relieving unemployment, but to register my protest against certain aspects of the Government policy which have led to this great expenditure. We are presented with a Bill which includes a great many items which are altogether unjustified, and I hope hon. Members who realise the sorry state of our finances will support me in registering a protest by voting against the Third Reading of the Bill.
  Mr. HOGGE: Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer laid before the House the position in regard to the finances of the country, which everybody agreed was extremely serious. I am not going to discuss that to-day. I desire to draw attention to one fact which has been overlooked, and which I hope will not remain overlooked, but will be remedied in the near future, in regard to legislation for unemployment. We are to have the Royal Assent given this afternoon to five separate Measures dealing with unemployment. Some of those Measures deal with far-reaching economic events, including the Act which will deal with the extension of credits, and the guaranteeing of loans and interest to large business firms who undertake work which will find employment for the people who are out of employment. The cost of these Measures will run into millions—I think between £50,000,000 and £60,000,000. We are doing this because, not only the Government, but the House have again
  690
  been unprepared for the event of unemployment. It is a curious feature of our political life that in these recurring periods of unemployment we are found absolutely unprepared to deal with them, and we are forced into a position of having to find ad hoc remedies for the situation.
  In order not to make the matter controversial, I may say that the Government and the House of Commons having once more been found unprepared to meet a state of affairs which we know perfectly well will recur, the Government would be serving a very useful purpose if they straightaway undertook to initiate some inquiry or investigation into the methods which have been adopted in the past, and what might be adopted in the future, seeing that these periods do recur, so that we shall not find ourselves on the next occasion in a position of having to deal with these ad hoc remedies. There is the question of organisation, and other matters which are not nearly so difficult as that. Both organisation and other steps are more easily dealt with if time and effort is put into them. We have had time and effort put into the question in the past. There are on the shelves of the Library the results of many Committees which have inquired into this question, and much evidence has accumulated, but nobody has ever attempted to assimilate it, and to put it into legislative form. I want to say before we part, either temporarily or for good—it does not matter which, because whatever fresh Parliament comes it will meet with this difficulty—that we have taken up weeks dealing with financial expedients for treating a problem which has become acute, and that the Government should go a great deal further and enter into consideration of the larger question as to whether by organisation and other methods we could always be in a position readily to put into operation machinery which will relieve the acute recurrence of this problem in the future.
  Mr. INSKIP: I want to call attention to the new departure which this nation has adopted in regard to the relief of unemployment, and to the consequences which arise from the policy adopted. For a long time past we have heard of the demand which organised labour makes for work or maintenance. This House moved, and I think rightly moved,

  691
  either by sentiment or economic facts, has decided that those who are unable to find employment shall be supported by those who are in employment and by the State. It has been part of that policy that work is to be provided in certain cases at the Government expense. Hon. Members have received communications protesting against the decision of the Government to pay only 75 per cent, of the trade union rates of wages in cases where work has been provided. It appears to follow from these protests that organised labour is demanding that work shall be provided for them at trade union rates. Trade union rates for the most part are fixed, if not largely by strikes or lockouts, at any rate, by threats of strike or fear of strikes.
  What this demand of labour amounts to is that either there shall be a sufficiency of work provided by private employers at trade union rates or that the Government shall provide work at trade union rates. The country has rightly assented to the demands of labour that the unemployed shall be maintained. The view which I want to advance in connection with the new departure that has been made is that, for the first time in the history of this country, labour has put itself in the position of having no real answer to the demand which may some day be made that labour should be conscripted. I think we are right in having provided for employment in this crisis, and I think we are right in having made provision for the unemployed, but it will no longer be open to labour, under the policy which has been deliberately adopted by this House, to take up the attitude that they are entitled to fix the rate of payment by means of strikes or by similar movements.
  If labour has deliberately adopted the policy of demanding either work or maintenance, it does not lie in labour's mouth any longer, apart from the Government, to determine the right of fixing the rates at which they shall be paid. Perhaps it has not altogether been recognised that this new departure may lead to a new relation between the Government and industry, between employers and employed. It would be an intolerable position if labour in future was to disorganise industry by highly organised strikes in demanding rates of wages
  692
  which were not economic rates, and then, having disorganised industry, were to come down to this House and demand that employment should be found for the unemployed at the rates of pay which were the very rates that caused the unemployment. Sooner or later, that demand would lead to ruin.
  I call attention to the matter in the interests of classes of the community who are but little remembered in our Debates in this House. We think of the employers, the capitalists, and we think of those who are not fortunate enough to be capitalists, but are depending upon a living by the sale of their labour, but there are large classes in this country who are being slowly crushed between these two millstones. The middle classes, the people of small incomes, are being slowly bled to death by the pressure which is being put upon them by taxation, by the decrease in their income consequent upon the disorganisation of industry, and by the burden of the rates. It has to be remembered that the Exchequer is not bearing all this burden of supporting the unemployed, who are very largely unemployed in consequence of strikes or lockouts. I am not for a moment saying that the strikes were not justified, but my point is that the unemployment is partly consequent upon Labour disturbance. The people of whom I speak have no voice in these matters. They have to be the silent spectators of the struggle between Capital and Labour. They have to listen to the demands of Labour for work or maintenance, and to the assent which the Government makes to these demands, and they have to pay the rates and taxes which are necessary to keep the unemployed. They are, in fact, slowly being crushed and bled to death, without a voice being raised on their behalf.
  The point that I desire to register in this connection is that if Labour comes to the State in this crisis and asks to be provided either with work or maintenance, it will be a generous act on the part of Labour in future, and a wise act from their point of view, if they respond to the action which the Government and the nation as a whole has willingly taken, and will do their very best in future to promote, as far as they can, those happier relations which will prevent disorganisation of industry and will enable as much

  693
  employment to be provided as may be provided by ordinary economic operations, and ordinary industrial activities. I think hon. Members of the Labour party know that I have given sympathy and assistance to the appeals made by them to this House in respect of unemployment, and I shall continue to feel sympathy towards the unemployed, but my position, and the position of many who think with me, would be made most difficult if in another winter, or in another crisis, we found that the position had been worsened because Labour had not responded in a generous spirit to the appeal which I think ought now to be made to them to co-operate, instead of standing apart, in restoring a condition of things in which the State will not have to provide for those who are unemployed.
  Mr. A. WILLIAMS: The hon. and learned Member who has just spoken has referred to trade union wages as if those wages were any wages that the trade unions cared to demand, whereas the trade union rate of wages means the rate of wages agreed to between the trade unions and the employers. If we have authorised the payment of trade union wages, it is in that sense, and it is not necessarily a rate fixed as the result of a strike. It may have been fixed as the result of a lock-out. As long as there is agreement between the two sides, it is the trade union rate, and more often, let us hope, it will be a rate fixed by friendly negotiation. I agree heartily with the appeal made by the hon. and learned Gentleman for conciliatory action on the part of Labour, and I would supplement that by an appeal for conciliatory action on the part of the great chiefs of industry, the great employers. For it is only by conciliatory action on the part of, and co-operation between, both sides that we can hope for prosperity in this country. I did not intend to speak on this matter, but it was the very significant and, in some respects, admirable words of my hon. and learned Friend which induced me to refer to it.
  The point which I desire to raise is of quite a different character. It is one of great constitutional importance to this country. In the Schedule to the Bill there is the item for the cost of certain Miscellaneous War Services—£100,000. That is money voted for the relief of the famine in Russia. I am not going to deal
  694
  with it in reference to its humanitarian aspect or our relations with Russia. I would point out that voting this money, as the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs pointed out the other night, is more or less in the nature of a book-keeping transaction, but it is a bookkeeping transaction of great importance. The object is to purchase certain necessaries from the Disposal Board in order that they may be given to Russia for the relief of sickness and famine there. The reason I say that it is a matter of great constitutional importance is this. It came before the notice of the Public Accounts Committee, of which I have the honour to be Chairman, in the earlier part of this Session that the Government, as shown in the accounts which were then before us, had taken upon themselves, of course, with the consent of the Treasury, to give away very large amounts of the national property. They have given a warship to this colony and a warship to another. They have even given aeroplanes to a foreign government. They have given property to various institutions and they have given stores worth anything up to £90,000,000 to certain fighting forces in Russia, and all this without the consent of this House.
  Though not one penny can be voted for public service without the consent of this House still it appeared on the face of these transactions that the Government with the consent of the Treasury claimed the right to give away ships of the British Navy, our property and stores, for all sorts of purposes, good, bad and indifferent on a very large scale, running into scores of millions of pounds. It was not for the Public Accounts Committee to deal with the merits of those particular gifts. They may have been very good or very bad in a particular case. What we had to consider was the protection of the national property and the protection of the rights of the House of Commons with regard to the disposal of the national property. Because giving away national property really means giving away the money of the people. It is either money or money's worth. Therefore without any consideration or discussion of the merits of those particular gifts we recommended unanimously that in future no such gifts ought to be made without the consent of the House of Commons. We made a distinction in cases where the amount in-

  695
  volved was very small in comparison with the resources of a great nation like this and said that in the case of anything involving, say, up to £10,000 we did not think it necessary to have all the details brought before the House of Commons if the Treasury approved the transaction; but apart from that we thought that the consent of the House of Commons ought to be obtained before national property was given away.
  I am very glad that the Government have conformed to that recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee and that in giving these stores to Russia, which I think is an admirable gift in itself, they have not taken upon themselves to do it without putting a definite Vote before this House in order that this House may ratify the gift of national property, however good the purpose. I trust that this will be a precedent which will be followed in future. I am convinced that, in this respect, I speak for the whole of the Public Accounts Committee, whatever their views on political matters may be. We are all agreed, and indeed it is embodied in our Report, that gifts of this sort should come before the House of Commons for ratification and approval, and that no person or Department should have the right to give away substantial amounts of the national property without the consent of this House, which represents the taxpayers of this country. I trust that hon. Members will recognise that this is a constitutional principle of considerable importance.
  Mr. JOHNSTONE: The hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) and the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) have referred to the claim which has been put forward by Labour for the right to work or to maintenance. It is claimed that if work cannot be provided and if private enterprise fails, work should be provided by the State, and if the State cannot provide work for the unemployed, then there is an obligation on the State to provide maintenance. I think that in many respects the views of those who put forward that claim will be entitled to sympathy, but alarm is created in the minds of most moderate people by another claim, that whether a man works or not he should be paid full trade union rates of wages. If that were done there would be no in-
  696
  centive to work, but I agree that the claim put forward by Labour as to the right to work or to maintenance cannot be too lightly cast aside. It is a serious reflection on our industrial system in this country that in a time of great prosperity we have strikes and threats to strike against apparently quite good conditions, because, owing to the apparent prosperity of the country, Labour thinks that by making demands it can exact more out of the industry, and then in periods of depression Labour claims relief and you have the most humiliating and degrading spectacle of decent industrious workmen waiting for relief at the soup-kitchen door. Can not a better system be devised to meet the situation which arises in times of depression? I think that there can.
  The claim has been put forward that industry should support its own unemployed. I believe that the Labour party contests the proposition that every separate trade should support its own unemployed, because that would interfere with the mobility of labour, but I do think that industry as a whole ought to meet the unemployed problem, and we shall never have a satisfactory solution of the question until the Government of to-day tackle it seriously and earnestly and try to solve this unemployment problem by putting the provision for unemployment on a more permanent and satisfactory basis. And I think that we have the foundations for a better system. We have had recently, in legislation which has been passed, a system of compulsory levy upon workmen and employers, with a contribution from the State. I welcome that, because I think it is on sound lines. I would make that levy not temporary, but permanent. I think that industry should bear largely the whole cost of maintaining its workmen when they are unemployed, and the foundation for a structure has been laid down in the unemployment section of the Insurance Act providing the remedy. There ought to be in times of prosperity such contributions made by employers and workmen as will build up a substantial fund, so that in times of trade depression men who are unemployed shall receive more or less substantial relief from such funds.
  One of the first charges upon an industry should be the maintenance of the unemployed and you will never have contentment and peace in this country unless some thoroughly satisfactory system

  697
  is settled which will deliver the worker from the recurrent fear, the terrorising spectre of unemployment that haunts him from his very earliest days to his latest. There is nothing so terrible to an honest, hard-working man as to think that the time will come when his wife and family will be faced with the spectacle of starvation owing to his being unable to find work, and in times of prosperity, when trade is good, we should endeavour to set up a substantial fund that will meet all the claims of the unemployed during times of depression. There have been in this country many years of great prosperity and it would have been no undue hardship upon industry, employers and workers alike, if they had been called upon to pay a substantial sum for every person employed so that the workmen themselves when they are out of work should be paid from the fund to which they have contributed, which will preserve their self-respect, while contributions are also made by the employers and by the State which represents the general body of the people.
  The system is laid down in the unemployment section of the Insurance Act if we can arrange for more substantial contributions. I remember that employers of labour, when that Measure was carried through, looked upon it as a petty affair, that they should have to start a system of cards and make contributions to arrange for the payment of a miserable 7s. a week. They said that the game was not worth the candle, but if employers and workmen know that a fund is going to be built up, out of which in times of trade depression men who are idle through no fault of their own or their employers, can draw, they will have the satisfaction of knowing that the funds accumulated during the time of good trade will enable them to tide over the had times until prosperity returns. That would do more to dissipate unrest in this country and establish contentment and prosperity among the working people, and consolidate the whole structure of industrial society than the processes which have been going on for so long, by which we have the Government passing Measures that only touch the fringe of the question. What we need to-day is to address ourselves earnestly to the problem of unmployment and seek some permanent and satisfactory solution on the lines which I have described. I think
  698
  the House is very much indebted to the hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) for the very thoughtful contribution he has made to our discussion and for enabling us to consider, in the light of the arguments he brought forward, this most pressing problem.
  Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: I listened with very great pleasure to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Central Bristol, and I think he did a great service in reminding the House that this Bill, in reference to the large sum granted for unemployment., does mark a new departure in State policy. It is quite true that there are implicit in this policy consequences to which we must give very grave consideration, but except in the sense of pure legalism I was unable to follow him when he said that, if Labour accepts this policy and all that it implies, Labour must face the possibility ultimately of labour conscription. I dc not think that that follows at all. With reference to the question of the claim of Labour that the rate of wages should he the trade union rate of wages, it really comes down to what we mean by an economic rate of wages, which is quite as confusing and as much a matter of words as the economic price at which goods are produced. The fact is, that the economic wage at a given time is the highest wage that can be paid as between a willing worker and a willing employer. During the last few years we have lived, unfortunately, in such an utterly unreal world economically that we have lost that standard of value to which we shall have to return if we are to regain the markets of the world and if our trade is to be put upon a truly sound basis again.
  Although it is very gratifying to this House to have been assembled in order to make some contribution to this great problem of unemployment, although it is gratifying to each Member of the House to give his support to the Government in its very honest endeavour, although it will be gratifying to all of us to support this grant of £5,500,000, and although I rose to say a word of benediction, yet I cannot help making it a matter of very serious complaint that the problem of unemployment was so long prolonged, and that even now what we are doing is so infinitesimal compared with what really ought to be done. I do not think we

  699
  ought to be too heroic about the making of this grant. We certainly ought not to be fearful of the consequences to ourselves in doing it. The fact is that unemployment had reached a stage and, indeed, is at present in a degree which menaces the social structure of this country. Far from there being any reluctance to vote such a sum, it ought to be a cheerful contribution from everyone who cares for the preservation of our social structure, and particularly on the part of anyone who has any property to preserve.
  The great concern I have at this moment is that the words of the Prime Minister in introducing the Bill should be remembered—that Governments can really do very little, so little as almost to amount to nothing, to cure the problem of unemployment. It is not to be thought that Parliament can be summoned and the unemployment problem solved. The truth is that we are more and more realising that we are not in what, in the old days, was called a cycle of depression; we are in a cyclone of depression, a world cyclone, and what I am concerned about is that even when we pass this Bill, useful as it is as far as it goes, and when the benefits under this Bill have been distributed, comforting as they will be to the homes of the recipients, we are still as a people confronted with a world economic situation which apparently is not getting better and as to which apparently there is no policy which can be announced by any world leader to secure the desired result. As we reflect upon the conditions which will prevail throughout this country during the winter, we cannot but regret that the appeals made to the Government 18 months ago, and again at the beginning of this year, were left unheeded, and that we are now summoned at great haste and with an atmosphere almost of theatrical urgency to deal with this problem between October and November when the winter is well set in. I am afraid we are to have an appalling winter in this country, and that very little employment can be found on what is called an economic basis; and as a result, although we shall go away from these labours satisfied that we have done for it some little, do not let us forget that until a great world policy has been dealt with by our Government in concert with other Governments, so that the natural flow of trade on which we
  700
  depend for our existence is set going again, we have hardly touched this unemployment problem. I trust, however, that we shall have shown the sincerity of this House and the desire of everyone to pay his little towards this great debt to those of our fellows who are now suffering so severely.
  Colonel Sir J. GREIG: There are one or two remarks I wish to make about the very sympathetic speech of the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr. Johnstone), who, I am sorry to see, has quitted the House. There was a great deal in his speech about the necessity and the expediency of taking steps to review the whole question of unemployment and to insure against it. The question has advanced very much in the last four or five years, and one of the most remarkable instances of change of opinion was the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire, for I remember that when the Insurance Act was first introduced eight or nine years ago, for putting insurance upon a sound basis and insurance against unemployment was tentatively dealt with in that Act, there was a considerable movement, certainly in Scotland and I think also in England, amongst employers to oppose that Measure altogether. Deputations came up to those of us who were supporting the Bill, which was fought through the House under the aegis of the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), but was committed to the charge of the present Prime Minister. I happen to have the duty imposed upon me of receiving a deputation from the employers in Scotland, who opposed that Bill tooth and nail. At the head of that deputation was my Friend the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire, who put forward views against the whole of that Measure.
  A delightful change has taken place. There will be more rejoicing in paradise over one sinner that has repented than over the ninety and nine just men. Whatever may be said for the present system, at least it has been started. It was started under that Act and within the last two years we have brought 8,000,000 more people into unemployment insurance, based upon the experience we have had of the previous Measure. These palliative measures now are not an end of legislative amelioration, but I agree that something should be done now and

  701
  some general survey taken of the whole situation, and in view of the conversion of the hon. Member for East Renfrew-shire I think the bulk of the House, and of those people who entertain different opinions, will welcome such an investigation.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. ALLEN: I have listened with the greatest possible pleasure to the speeches on this Bill. I think it a great pity that more interest has not been taken in this Debate. The Debate afforded a splendid opportunity for Members to put their views before the Chancellor of the Exchequer in such a way as possibly to induce him to take a different outlook in the coming year in connection with his Budget. A Session like this, when almost by accident we have such a discussion, is one which gives us a privilege of which every Member ought to take advantage. Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us a review of the receipts for the present year up to date, and of the possibilities at the end of the year. The right hon. Gentleman also took advantage of the opportunity to say that his idea of the moneys that have been received was rather that those moneys were to some extent the result of wealth amongst the community that they were not expected to possess. My right hon. Friend referred to that particularly when he spoke of Customs and Excise and with regard to the Income Tax yield, which he said so far had exceeded last year. I think he took rather a different view of the reason why this Income Tax has returned so much up to the present, from what is actually the case, and also that he took a different view as to the reason why there was an increasing supply of money in the City, from what is the case. We all know perfectly well that the reason why there is such a large Income Tax paid up to date and the reason why so much may be paid up to the end of the year is that it is the Income Tax of the three years of greatest prosperity which the country has seen, the average of those three years. That is the reason why we have such a large Income Tax payment this year. If the Income Tax received this year had been paid out of the profits of this year we might have some hope.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir E. Cornwall): The hon. and gallant Member
  702
  is wandering away from the Bill now under consideration.
  Sir W. ALLEN: I am sorry if such is the case, but I was merely dealing with the speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the same Bill yesterday.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is a difference between the Second Reading and the Third Reading. On the Second Reading hon. Members may argue as to what they think ought to be in the Bill, but on the Third Reading we deal only with what is in the Bill.
  5.0 P.M.
  Sir W. ALLEN: So far as I can understand, the money which it is proposed to expend on unemployment is money received from Customs and Excise and Income Tax, and I though perhaps we were at liberty to discuss the receipts of those moneys and the reasons for their receipt. However, I accept your ruling, and I will turn to another subject debated yesterday; that is, to the reasons why we have unemployment and the necessity for the expenditure of this £5,500,000. The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Mills) dealt, in a speech the other day, with the possibility of getting Russia going, so that we might have less unemployment here. No one would appreciate that more than I would, because I know a large staple industry, the welfare of which goes with the welfare of Russia and the Russian people. The difficulty in that trade now is in reference to the raw material which comes from Russia. If Russia were thoroughly going again, it would be a very different story for us. Where we used to receive 700,000 tons of flax from Russia some years ago, we received last year—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member has again gone outside the Bill. The only money for Russia that is referred to in the Bill is the £100,000 for medical services, and he cannot raise the general question of trade with Russia now.
  Sir W. ALLEN: So far as I understand the Bill, there is in it £5,500,000 for unemployment, and I thought, perhaps, we were entitled to discuss why unemployment has taken place, and why it is necessary to incur that expenditure. I will content myself with saying, so far as that is concerned, that we are very anxious to assist the Government to avoid

  703
  this expenditure on unemployment next year, but we would like the Government to assist itself so far as to procure us the material from Russia. I am hopeful that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he comes to present his Budget, will find that his forecasts have been realised in so satisfactory a manner that the country will be in a better position financially during the coming year than it has been in the past, or than it is in the present. I am not quite satisfied with his idea as to the future outlook. I think if the Government, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer particularly, were to look very carefully at what is happening in the various countries of Europe they would see great danger ahead for this country, and I hope that when the Chancellor prepares his Budget for the coming year he will be very, very careful. What is required more than anything else, as has been repeated in this House over and over again, is a reduction of expenditure in this country.
  Mr. G. BARNES: I wish to express in a few words my sincere pleasure at the very considerable advance we have made in providing for the unemployed. Much has been said during the last few days as to the inadequacy of the measures taken, and I agree with a good deal of what has been said in that direction. For instance, I would much rather have seen—and in fact I did vote for—the payment of 10s. a week instead of 5s. for wives. I think 10s. would have been a small enough sum to give a workman to tide him over the coming winter. Also, I would have preferred that the money for the supplementary benefits under the Insurance Act should have been taken from ordinary taxation instead of from the workmen and the employer, because this is special taxation out of which neither those employers nor those employed who are taxed can possibly get anything. I believe, however, they will willingly pay the tax that has been imposed; and on the whole I am glad that we have had a Session of Parliament which has discussed unemployment with more sympathy and more knowledge than has been shown in any Session in my 17 years' experience of the House. I remember the time, 15 or 16 years ago, when the unemployed were surging round our doors. Up to that time nothing had been done for the unemployed, except by
  704
  way of charity, or by local relief works under a Bill passed a year or two previously. Therefore we must be grateful for something, and that something is that Parliament has now got to the point of understanding better than ever before its moral responsibility in regard to men who are out of work from causes not under their control.
  I wish to back up the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) in his observations as to the need for being prepared for these special periods of unemployment. They will come along; I wish it were otherwise, but the root of wisdom is to face facts. It is no good to talk of the unemployed problem being due to some particular economic system, for it is nothing of the kind. Unemployment is inevitable, sometimes, under any system; it may be more prevalent under the present system—I do not know; but so long as we have a world ever getting more sensitive, ever being brought closer together by wireless telegraphy, faster steamships, and all sorts of scientific improvements, so will events in one part of the world affect more closely the other parts of the world. We are affected now to a very large extent by what is taking place in Russia, or, rather, what is not taking place in Russia, because what we want to help in the solution of our unemployment problem is that Russia shall get to work producing goods that she may exchange for other goods. But the unemployment problem will come along again, because it is caused by bad harvests and by all sorts of things that will occur in the very nature of things, under whatever economic system the world may be living. Therefore I back up the Member for East Edinburgh in his desire that the Government—this Government—shall take some steps whereby they will be more ready to deal with unemployment when it occurs.
  I agree With the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr. Johnstone), that a good deal has been done already in that direction. The Unemployment Insurance Act took a great step in that direction by providing that a certain sum of money shall be paid to a man when he is out of work; and those who know the Act will know that provision is made whereby industries may arrange to provide schemes of their own for periods of unemployment. I believe that these

  705
  schemes are the best way in which unemployment can be provided for, so far as method is concerned; but I do not agree with the suggestion which was thrown out by someone this afternoon, that the industry itself should be entirely responsible for the money for the unemployed. I do not believe that for a moment. I believe the State has the responsibility of providing the money, or at least the bulk of the money; but I can conceive no better way of meeting unemployment than for each industry to be encouraged to make provision for its spells of unemployment. By that means I believe both employers and employed would have a greater corporate pride in their industry; they would feel a greater responsibility for all who are in it, and I believe they would themselves take steps to prevent unemployment as far as they could. They could work short time if they saw a period of unemployment coming along, and in other ways they could, to some extent, prevent unemployment; and if in any industry it was not altogether preventible, they could take such steps as would provide the necessary aliment for the man when he was out of work.
  The hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip), in his very suggestive speech this afternoon, raised the point as to whether a man out of work or on relief work was entitled to full wages. I am not going into that, except to say that, whatever may be paid as aliment to such a man, it should not be such an amount as to destroy the incentive to work at his normal occupation. The hon. Member for Central Bristol also raised another, and an altogether different, point to my mind, though in his mind it was relating to the point I have just mentioned. He seemed to envisage a condition of things, and in his mind it was to be permanent, in which wages were to be fixed by strike or lockout; and he seemed also to envisage a condition of things in which the cake, so to speak, from which wages were drawn was a fixed quantity, and that the shares of employers and of workmen were to be fixed by strike or lock-out. I hope that is not so. We ought to have something better than that to look forward to. If employers and workmen are always to be flying at one another's throats, and if they regard the output from workshops as a fixed quantity, to be divided between them according to their relative strength,
  706
  then he is right; wages will be fixed by strike or lock-out, as the case may be. But I do not think that is so. I believe the cake may be increased, and wages thereby increased without any strike or lock-out. The inauguration of that time would do far more for unemployment and peaceful progress than any of the Bills we have had during the last few weeks. For workmen and employers to regard themselves as servants of the community, and run their industries in such a way as to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the community, is a far better ideal than the ideal of workmen wresting from their employers as much as they can get, and employers wresting as much labour as they can get from their workers. My idea is that workmen and employers ought to come together and increase production, and, after a careful investigation of all the facts, have wages arranged according to what the industry will stand. I know there may be an answer to that. It may be said, "What can the industry stand?" and "How are you going to say what profit the employer shall have and what wages the man shall have?" unless by a "pull devil, pull baker" system of strike or lock-out. I think, however, that it might easily be done, and it is being done in some enterprises. I am connected with a co-operative printing society, which carries out certain principles, and I can say this by way of concrete example showing what we do. We say that Capital is not entitled to run industry and to take all the profits after giving an ordinary wage, whatever it may be, to the worker. Labour is just as much entitled to run industry as is Capital. The industry of the country under any system will have employers and employed, and, as I envisage it, there will be a great deal of public employment in the future, and in that case the public authority will be the employer. Whoever may be the employer, I have a vision of a state of things in which employed and employer will come together and, as we did in the instance to which I have alluded, say that Capital shall not be entitled to walk off with the profits after merely paying a man a wage based upon his living requirements, but that Capital shall get a wage itself. That wage shall be fixed at a maximum, say, of 5 or 6 per cent. If the industry will bear 5 or 6 per cent. after wages are paid, give Capital 5 or 6 per cent. After that

  707
  is done, if there is a profit left over—and this is where the real benefit comes in—Capital should take its share along with Labour of what is left over. It seems to me that that is an alternative to the idea put before us by the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip) in a speech which I agree was a very informative speech and indicated very clearly the hon. Member's sympathetic attitude towards Labour matters. I put it, however, that what I have indicated might be considered in regard to the carrying on of industry. It seems to me it would give a more just distribution of the products between the two sides, with a knowledge of all the facts and of what the industry can bear. We are concerned in securing a just and equitable distribution of the product rather than merely a system of one side pulling the other about. If such a system were generally adopted it would contribute to increased production and thereby to increased wages without strikes or lock-outs, and, at the same time, by inducing a feeling of responsibility on both sides, it would do something towards lessening unemployment and prevent the introduction of Bills such as we have been discussing.
  Mr. WIGNALL: I am sure we have listened with a great deal of interest and pleasure to the speeches, especially the speech of the hon. Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. G. Barnes). I might find his argument fairly good were it not for the fact that my experience so far has been one of finding that so much has been tried and so much has failed that I am almost despondent as to ultimate success. As to the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Inskip), I could not follow his argument. I could not connect a demand for relief work with conscription of labour. There his arguments seemed to fail completely, and I could not follow his logic on the question of unemployment. There was one point which did appeal to me in the speech of the hon. Member for Gorbals, and it was the reference to each industry bearing its own burden. I have been a great believer and a great advocate of making unemployment one of the standing charges which all industries should have to meet. We had a very notable example, during the War period in the Excess Profits Duty, of how this might be done. The law provided there that over and above a certain limit of
  708
  profit all money received should be paid in the form of an Excess Profits Tax. If we accepted the principle in that respect, could we not in the same way form a reserve fund for the purpose of meeting the exceptional claims of unemployment? We would be able to build up a substantial sum which would serve a useful purpose in meeting emergencies as they arose.
  The question before the House now is the Consolidated Fund Bill, and as the Minister of Labour is in his place I wish to deal with the amount of money that has been apportioned to meet unemployment and to ask a few questions as to the administration of the donation. I know the sympathetic consideration shown by the right hon. Gentleman—and I want to test that knowledge right away—both in regard to the raising of this fund and the distribution of it. I wish also to bear my tribute to the very loyal staff which the right hon. Gentleman has working with him, because it has come under my own personal observation that sacrifices are being made by many of them to meet the strain and stress of the terribly bad times through which we are passing. In connection with this Bill and the new provisions which are being made, I wonder whether the Minister of Labour, with the multiciplicity of difficulties which surround him, has taken fully into consideration the time we have yet to pass through and the administration of the fund in the coming months. I am sure the present state of things has given him much distress of mind, as it has everybody else. Even during the summer and autumn those of us who have been to the Employment Exchanges, particularly at the time when the donation is being paid out, have seen tremendously long queues of men and women who have to wait for hours to receive their payments. There may not be a strong argument against this during the summer months when the sun is shining and all is bright and warm. One does not look upon it as a great hardship in such circumstances to have to wait about for some little time, but during the cold days of this week it has been our painful experience again to see very long queues waiting. It has been the most painful experience I have ever passed through. We see, even in the districts in which we reside, queues of men almost a half mile in length waiting for

  709
  long periods, and the weather is becoming more severe, while the winter outlook is bad. Women also have to wait in the same way and under the same conditions here and in every part of the country. Now I do not ask for the sympathy of the right hon. Gentleman in this matter, because I know I have it, and one does not ask for that which one already possesses. It would be almost an insult to the Minister of Labour to claim his sympathy in this matter, because no man is more sympathetic than he with regard to it. Therefore I do not want him to be mistaken and to think that we are asking for sympathy which we have already got when I offer a few suggestions which I hope may be helpful.
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): Hear, hear.
  Mr. WIGNALL: I have been considering the time that is occupied in the waiting process in relation to the severity of the weather, and I know I am going to be up against the anti-waste people in my suggestion. I know I shall receive objections on the ground that extra cost will be incurred. Well, the money is provided as a fixed sum, and we cannot add to it. Therefore, any suggestion of mine is not likely to lead to increased cost. The Minister of Labour has pointed out to us in various answers to questions and other statements that he has been cutting into his staff and reducing it at a tremendous pace, and he received, "Hear, hears," and cheers from all parts of the House. I am wicked enough to wish that those who cheered the cutting down process had to stand in the queues outside the Employment Exchanges and wait for the donation. They would not shout then; they would be more prepared to curse the people who were responsible. Now we have to face the fact that this large number of people have to be dealt with, and in every district of every large industrial centre there are many public halls, chapels, and places of worship with schoolrooms attached. Surely they could be used for this humane purpose. I think an effort should be made to deal with these people in batches and put them in shelter and under cover rather than leave them standing shivering in the cold. If that does not meet with the Minister's approval there is another suggestion I
  710
  would make. It is that, instead of paying out the benefit to a number of men on one day in the week, say on a Friday—
  Dr. MACNAMARA: Sometimes twice a week.
  Mr. WIGNALL: I know that sometimes it is paid twice a week, but generally speaking it is paid once a week, on a Friday. Why not, in cases where you have 2,000 or 3,000 men to be paid on a Friday, arrange matters so that, instead of paying them all on the one day, the 3,000 should be divided into three sections paid respectively on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday? That would prevent them having to wait and stand about for such a long time. There is nothing more humiliating or degrading to a man than to be compelled to stand shivering in the rain and cold observed of all the passers-by. It takes all the manhood out of him and does not tend to make him a better workman to be so exposed to the gaze of the public and looked upon with pitying eyes. I am sure I only need to bring these suggestions to the Minister's notice. They are quite practicable and can be applied to meet the difficulties of the position. I am not, as I said before, asking for pity or for sympathy, but only suggesting a practical method of dealing with the conditions and saving trouble to these men, without either adding to the cost or making the machinery more cumbersome.
  If the Minister of Labour will look at it from that point of view and give it his consideration, I shall be very much obliged. He might appeal to the religious bodies in the districts to give the use of their schoolrooms, and I say to-day that every religious body and every charitable institution in the district ought to assist and say to us, "Here are our schoolrooms unoccupied at the present time, and you can have them merely for the cost of upkeep, and the cost of light or firing." They would be carrying out the work of Christianity by seeing that these men and women, instead of standing shivering in the bitter cold weather of this bitter winter which is before us, are given shelter, and they would thus be helping the Minister of Labour to cater for the health and safety of the man that, after all, is the backbone of the nation. I believe that if an appeal were made, it would be responded to gladly and

  711
  willingly, and if not, we should have something more to say about it in our daily spheres of labour. If that is not practicable, I pray the right hon. Gentleman to consider the advisability of cutting the numbers into smaller batches, of having more pay-days. It would be the same total at the finish, but the right hon. Gentleman would be adding to the comfort of the people who have got to go there to receive it.
  Mr. CAUTLEY: During the various stages of the passage of this Bill, I have been much exercised in my mind as to how, in the interests of my constituents, I could vote £8,000,000 of the taxpayers' money for the benefit of unemployment. I will say at once that, with the Government scheme for dealing with unemployment, I am in thorough agreement. I think it was by far, the best system that could be devised, to put the charge partly on the employers who are carrying on industry, partly on the men who are working in industry, and partly on the State, and I only regret that the finances of the country have been such as necessarily to limit the extent to which the Government have gone. The difficulty I have had is this: In my constituency the only industry that we really have is agriculture. I have a large number of men at work in agriculture. The others, apart from a few builders and carpenters, are woodmen and private servants, chauffeurs, and a few gamekeepers and that sort of people, but the bulk are the men who work on the fields. They are excluded from the Bill, and deliberately excluded by the promoters of the Bill. No answer has been given as to why they are excluded. I am very glad that the Minister of Labour is here, because I heard him give what he pretended was an answer, and that was that they chose not to come under the Unemployment Insurance Act. That is no answer, because there was no need for them to come under that Act. Under the provisions of the Government's Agriculture Act there was no chance of unemployment in the agricultural industry, but the Government themselves have created this unemployment. We were protected, and we were provided for, and there was no need in the case of the agricultural workmen to come under the Insurance Act, and I charge the Government, of which
  712
  the right hon. Gentleman is a Member, with being the direct cause of the unemployment from which we are suffering, and are likely to suffer to a very great extent in this coming winter, in agriculture.
  Then take the farmer, who, under the same Act, was also provided for, and who was induced, by means of that Act and of requests by the Government, to become the owner of his own land, to enter into contracts and to buy his own farm, which he could not really afford to do, and then, by a volte-face never before seen, the Government turned round and scrapped that Act, with the result that, in addition to the economic causes that are hitting the farmer hard now, he has been driven to sell his land or to have it sold over his head. I heard only the other day in one town, a small country town, that within one week there were seven meetings of creditors of farmers who had bought their own farms. What is the position which we have to face? We have an impoverished farmer, who has had a very bad year, with the price of every commodity that he is growing or producing fallen 50, 60 and even 70 per cent. We have labour, on the other hand, being discharged, the farmer being compelled to discharge it and to lower wages; yet that labour cannot get a farthing under this Bill, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell me now how I am to reconcile before my constituents the taxation to be put on them when our people have been left to themselves and we cannot get a farthing from the expenditure for which he asks us to vote.
  On the general question I would like to say one or two words. As I understand the position, the production to-day in this country is only 80 per cent. of what it was before the War, and the unemployed are about 20 per cent., as near as I can estimate, of our working population; therefore, if you could get back to pre-War production, the troubles of unemployment would be at an end. One of the faults I find with the Government proposals here is that they do very little to increase production. It has been said—and I think everybody in the House thoroughly agrees—that it is to the increase of production that we have to look, and the only ways by which we can get increased production, to my mind, are either by a reduction of the profits of the producer, a reduction of the

  713
  profits of the Middleman and distributor, or a reduction of the wages paid to the worker. I believe that the producers' profits have almost disappeared at the present moment, and I do not think there is much hope of looking for a further reduction in the profits of the producer in the ordinary trades, but I have seen no effort made by any Member of the Government to lessen the profits of the middleman or distributor, and I do not believe that the right process for reducing the cost of production is simply to look at the wages earned and call for a reduction of wages. Looking at it from the agricultural point of view, we are compelled to have a great reduction of wages, and the greater the reduction in wages the more men shall we be able to keep on our farms, because we see perfectly well that under this Bill we are left to our own resources. I desire to call the attention of the House to the grievance from which we are suffering at the present time. In every retail trade, in every middleman's trade, there are price controls of a most intricate and complicated character. If you could, deal with those you would do more to lessen the cost of living, and we should be able then to arrive at the first step, to my mind, necessary to securing that great reduction in wage costs, which would go further than anything to enable us to meet this problem of the greater output, at less cost, of our goods.
  I would like to give one or two illustrations of what I mean. One of the greatest combines affecting London at the present moment is the milk combine. The Government during the War have allowed this large company to purchase all the private businesses at very large cost, and they deal then in this way. They send round a letter, the day before the milk contract expires, to the farmer and say, "Our price for the next six months is so and so. If you do not agree, cease sending your milk." There is no other customer. They have it in their own hands in fixing the buying price. They then determine and advertise in the paper that the cost to the consumer will be so and so for the next six months. There is no other supply, and the consumers have to pay, and you have got this spectacle, going on all over London, that you have practically one large combine supplying, who make a profit of £350,000 in selling the first necessity of life, and you have this, that
  714
  they fix the buying price and they fix the selling price, which, as anybody knows, leads to enormous extravagance and waste, in addition to the initial huge cost. Take the price of bread. We have seen in the, last year the price of wheat go down from 94s. or 95s. a quarter to 45s., and I have known in the last two or three weeks good English wheat sold at 39s. in one of our largest towns, yet when local bread ought to be 8d. or 9d. a 41b. loaf, we have in our country villages bread to-day being sold at 1s. or even 1s. 1d., and we have it in London to-day being sold at 11d. and 1s. Take the butcher. I have seen it stated, and never contradicted—in fact, I know it to be true—that if a small butcher has a turn-over of about £160 a week—going back for three or four weeks, that would be a man who sells four carcases of cattle and three or four sheep a week, which is more than a country butcher sells, but less than the ordinary urban butcher sells—he makes a net profit of 25 per cent., or £40 a week, or £2,000 a year, a profit made by a butcher carrying on a simple straightforward business of that character. I venture to say it is perfectly outrageous. You can go to any greengrocer's shop in London to-day—nearly any one, not all—and you are charged 10d. or 1s. for a cauliflower, even at the present moment.
  I think I have practically proved the case I set out to make in regard to these price controls that if the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman were directed to getting rid of these in some way or another, there would be more room for reducing the cost of living and thereby the cost of labour and wages, the real wages remaining what they are at the present time, but there would be more chance of reducing the cost of the price of goods than in any other way that is apparently open to us at the present moment. If we can only succeed in doing that, if the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill can give us some assurance that we who live in the country can have some effort made on our behalf to secure the general public against these things which are the curse of every industry, and every trade so far as—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have not called the hon. Gentleman to order so far, but he is now inviting hon. Members who succeed to follow him in his argument. I trust he will come back to the question before the House.
  Mr. CAUTLEY: I forgot, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for the moment, and therefore I got out of order. I thought what I was saying was in order, seeing I was dealing with one of the remedies, as I thought, for meeting the question of unemployment and providing means of work. I have, however, apparently carried my argument further than I ought to have done, though I think I have carried it as far as I wished to do. I will end by expressing the hope that what I have said will commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman, for if we could get a proper reduction in retail prices wages could be so reduced on the farms without reducing real wages as would enable the farmers to find employment for most of the rural unemployed.
  Mr. SWAN: These £5,500,000 in the Bill, which is the Government policy, may be considered one of the most humane acts that have ever been adopted in our history. However humane and however good, though, the step the Government have embarked upon to deal with the situation of unemployment, we feel quite sure that it is utterly inadequate to meet the needs of the number of men and women and their dependants who are out of work to-day in the various parts of the country. Like the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, I have in my constituency a large number of agricultural workers out of work, and there is no provision in this Bill for them. The only people who can come to their assistance are the local authorities, and what steps are being taken are not much good to help the local people to help those who are looking to them for help. So far as the mining and other industries are concerned, we believe before the House meets again the fund established will have become exhausted. We have larger numbers of miners out of work than perhaps in any other industry; in fact, the unemployment there is unparalleled in the history of the industry. Nothing in this Bill is likely to ease the situation for a very long time. I sympathise with the Minister of Labour who is in charge of the Bill. We all know how generous he has been and ready to help, so far as his powers allow, and to allay the irritation and the other unpleasant factors that our people have to face. We all appreciate his efforts to assist us, but his difficulty in the near
  716
  future will be not in administering, because he will have no funds to administer, but in other directions. We believe if the Government intends to do anything which will really have a palliative effect on the unemployment problem they ought to assert themselves in a bolder and more effective manner than they are doing through this Measure.
  Our policy must be revised if we desire effectively to help the large numbers that are likely to be maintained in institutions. This matter has been discussed, I know, but we see no way of redress unless the Government really face the revision of the Treaty of Versailles. So long as that remains as it is, we shall have our unemployed members in large numbers in the mining industry, and they will be augmented. Our markets are being flooded by the coal under the Treaty and there is no possibility, in consequence, of our mining industry being rehabilitated. We are too parochial in these measures; we ought to take a longer view. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill knows that as soon as the House meets again, and in the light of that Treaty, we shall have to appeal again for another grant, and yet another, to assist the men that are thrown out of work and on to the labour market due to the Treaty of Versailles. It will have to be looked into in the interests of the whole of the trade and commerce of the country. We remember the speeches of the Prime Minister in 1918. He said then that we could not heal the gaping wounds of the nation by red tape, nor plough up the waste land by means of writing on paper, nor could we reclaim the waste land in the manner suggested. We had hoped that the Government might have been stirred by the humiliation and degradation of our people, for many of our constituents are gradually sinking into a state of despair. Instead of the Government grappling with all these questions, so as to heal the gaping wounds of the nation, they are adopting palliative measures which will intensify the problem of unemployment.
  It would be a much wiser policy on the part of the Government to take up some of those reconstruction proposals which have been gathered together by men of special knowledge and ability, whom the Government wisely selected to look into these things, and to suggest plans and proposals. This would the better enable

  717
  the Government to absorb much of the man-power of the nation which is drifting to waste, and to build up a really healthy and sturdy population in which the aspirations and desires for that which is highest and best would have better play and better chances. It would have been more economical and more humane, and altogether better than relief works. Two years ago we were confronted with the possibility of our coal reserves being exhausted. Now, instead of that, the whole of our markets are flooded with coal, while our men are out of work. The right hon. Member for the Gorbals Division (Mr. Barnes) declared that a wise and long view ought to be taken by both men and masters to avoid such a situation as we have come to to-day. He suggested that the men should work on short time. Even if those proposals were assented to, they are not going to assist the nation or do away with unemployment to any appreciable extent, because already the wages, as an inevitable consequence of what has been going on of late, are inadequate. Hence the purchasing power of the community is reduced, and this has its reaction upon the industries.
  The Government after the War were anxious, they said, that the skilled men of the nation, the men of technical knowledge and other experts, and skilful workmen, should give of their best for the purpose of bringing back that prosperity to the nation which it so much needs. Big schemes of electricity were projected, so that the. rivers might be harnessed and areas of land which are now waste might have electrical plants put upon them, and all these forces utilised to help on the nation. It would have been more humane, economic, and efficient if such a policy had been carried forward, and skilled and other labour utilised, so that the status of the country might be raised, and the land made more self-dependent. This policy, we were told, was calculated to save £100,000,000 a year. Work in that direction would have been far better for out-of-work men than by giving a dole or grant of 5½ millions, and making the men unfitted for work when subsequently they were offered useful work to do. What is more, the policy suggested of utilising these powers was expected to save 55,000,000 tons of coal for posterity.
  6.0 P.M.
  The Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Labour, and the Board of
  718
  Trade could have co-ordinated their efforts in the direction indicated, and by directive energy and skill have assisted the needs of the nation at this time. Instead of having 2,000,000 of men out of work, they would have been absorbed in these labours. There has been no co-ordination. The Minister of Labour turns to-day to the OFFICIAL REPORT, and gives us the records of the number of men out of work. We had expected that the Government would give more assistance than by simply recording the tragedy of men out of work, and starving. We want something constructive. The Department of the right hon. Gentleman, although it has added to the taxes, has never done any thing to carry out a real constructive policy. What is more, any money earmarked by the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been seized by other Departments, perhaps for battleships which are likely to be obsolete before they are finished. The policy of reconstruction, so far as railways are concerned, ought to be pursued to open out the land of the country. The Prime Minister said we could not cultivate waste land by writing on paper, and we do not want to leave the impression that that is possible. I hope the Government will do something to open up that waste land in order to employ these men in the worthy occupation of producing the food of the nation. We were told not long ago that £500,000,000 worth of food was imported into this country every year which could easily be produced in our own land, and what has been done to accomplish that? Absolutely nothing. We have vast fields of mineral wealth which ought to be exploited for all kinds of industry, and if we have men who can visualise the possibilities of employment in all parts of the Empire, surely they ought to use that ability to exploit the wealth which is known to exist within our own shores instead of spending our money upon speculative possibilities in foreign countries. A less amount of money spent in this country would give much better results in developing our own resources. I hope the Government will face this problem in a complete manner, and not be content to give £5,500,000 only. Why cannot the Government do what they did during the War when all the man-power of the nation was absorbed? It can be absorbed now by a constructive policy and pro-

  719
  ductive work. If that cannot be done a bolder policy should be adopted, and we ought to give grants that will enable the unemployed to live in decency and comfort.
  Sir R. COOPER: The Minister of Labour would perform a very valuable service if he would point out to the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) that the remedy for dealing with unemployment in the agricultural areas rests very much more in the hands of the farming community than with the Ministry of Labour, because if the farmers and their employés would work more closely together, I am sure it would be easy for them to knock the bottom out of the great difficulties which they are labouring under to-day. Another interesting point was raised by the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall). I want to ask my right hon. Friend if it is not a fact that he has given instructions that in all thickly populated areas where Labour Exchanges deal with a large number of men and women who have to receive benefits, they are given certain hours to attend. I have witnessed in my own constituency that that arrangement is carried out very successfully, the only difficulty being that people will come an hour or two hours before their proper time, and in order to regulate that difficulty the police have been brought in.
  There are one or two brief suggestions which I wish to make. The present system of dealing with this great national difficulty is admitted to be a very costly one. In the course of inquiries, not only in my own constituency, but in other parts of the Black Country, there is no doubt that at the present time there is a very great deal of inequality in the relief given under the schemes of boards of guardians, the work given by local authorities, and under the Unemployment Insurance Act. In all these matters there is a very great deal of inequality. In the right hon. Gentleman we have a Minister who, when the House is in Recess, will be just as ready to look into any facts put before him in regard to which he may be satisfied that some little change might do a good deal of good.
  The two points I wish to make are concerned with looking a little hit ahead. I believe that the optimism which was generally expressed by the Prime Minister
  720
  with regard to the outlook of trade and unemployment is generally well founded, but I cannot find anyone connected with industry or with labour who holds the opinion that relief is going to be as rapid as we wish. In any case I feel sure that we have to look to five months of great difficulties, and if we are going to do the best we can in the future at the most reasonable expense to the Exchequer, I submit that the right hon. Gentleman ought, apart from his multifarious duties, to be taking some further steps to look ahead as to what modifications of his scheme will produce better results at less expense. Judging from the experience of my own constituency, I say that there is some need for a closer co-ordination between the various bodies and authorities concerned with giving relief. I do not think it is necessary for me to expand on that subject. I think it is generally recognised, certainly in the case that I know most about, that there is room for very great improvement if that can be brought about. The other point is one which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Barnes) was speaking upon a little while ago. I believe that unemployment, speaking generally, is a problem which ought to be thrown upon the employers of labour and the workers jointly, and it ought to be much more of a charge upon industry than it is to-day. I say that as one who is deeply interested in an industry as an employer, and I know that many employers regard such a proposal as one that is going to be very hard upon them and cost a great deal. From my personal experience, I am inclined to believe that if unemployment in the future is more or less made a charge upon industry and administered jointly by employers and employed, I believe there is going to be vastly less unemployment, and ultimately it is going to be a far less charge upon the industries of the country.
  The Bill we have before us deals with a very small part of the problem of unemployment. The charge is enormous, but more or less the great bulk of this charge falls upon the production of wealth in one form or another. When I speak of this being a very costly system, I have particularly in mind that if the whole inspiration of dealing with unemployment can be taken away from what I think we all recognise as the somewhat cold-blooded administration of

  721
  the State, and can be thrown upon those who have to bear it, the employers and the workmen, and we can get the two working hand in glove to prevent unemployment in the joint interests of both, I am certain the result will be a far less burden than it is under the present administration. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take some serious steps by capable people to look ahead as far as next March and next winter in case the problem is not thoroughly relieved, as we all hope and desire it will be.
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: For three weeks the House has been debating the question of unemployment, and although we have been limited to the Government's proposals, I think the Minister of Labour himself will be the first to admit that all sections of the House have contributed something to the Debate.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: Hear, hear!
  Mr. THOMAS: No greater mistake could be made than to suppose that any particular party is alone interested in the question of the unemployed. The Debates during the past three weeks, although there will naturally be differences of opinion, have clearly demonstrated that Members in all parts of the House, representing all interests and parties, are genuinely anxious to do something for this most terrible of all household calamities. On the other hand, I think there will be a recognition that the unemployment problem we are dealing with at this moment is unique. We are dealing not only with a larger volume of unemployment but with more classes of unemployment than we have ever previously been called upon to deal with. The curious thing is that they constitute in the main the largest industries. In all previous unemployed debtes and discussions on unemployment we always included the agricultural industry. The argument used to be that although the economic conditions were bad there was a sort of permanency of employment in the agricultural industry which practically ruled out agriculture as being a matter generally connected with unemployment. The curious thing is that not only is this not so to-day, but all the evidence tends to show that there is more real hardship in the agricultural districts than has ever been experienced before, and therefore we have now drawn in a large new class.
  722
  The same applies to mining. If you were to go over the figures of the mining industry for the last 25 years you would find that the ratio of unemployment was practically lower than in any other industry, and yet at this very moment outside the steel trade it probably has the largest percentage of any class unemployed at the present moment. That is the second class. The third class I will deal with is the railways. This has always been more or less a staple trade. I never remember in my experience of the past a larger proportion than three-quarters per cent. of unemployment in the railway industry, and yet at this moment, when I say that in my own union since February of this year up to a week ago they have spent nearly £750,000 in unemployment benefit alone, that will give the House some indication of the position even in the case of the railways. Here you have, in addition to what I have already said, the aggravated evils of unemployment, and you have had brought into it three specific classes that were never so affected before as they are affected to-day. We also have to face the fact that practically all our economic laws and experience has been falsified at the present moment. The victorious country, the victors in the great War, are the countries which at this moment are suffering worst from unemployment. America, the only credit country in the world, the country which, with the exception of tea and coffee, is an absolutely self-supporting nation dependent for its prosperity entirely on its export trade, America, a credit country, is in the unfortunate position of having 6,000,000 unemployed at this moment. In other words, America and ourselves are very largely like a jeweller's shop with all the goods exposed. It shows wealth and prosperity, but it is practically falling into bankruptcy, because there are no customers to buy. That is the fact we have to face, and the conclusion I draw from it is this: I do not believe any party, whether it be those who are sitting on these benches here or in any other part of the House, can take this Bill and say, here is a national remedy for this evil. The sooner we get right down to the fact that it is not a local problem, that it is not a national problem, but that it is a world problem, the better it will be. Until we do that, we will never come to close grips with the situation. In evi-

  723
  dente of that I again come back to the position of America Curiously enough, the very things that are in abundance at this moment are also the very things that the world needs. It is the unfortunate breakdown of the opportunity to bring both together that is the cause of the real difficulty.
  We have admitted that these proposals afford no real solution of the trouble. At the best they are a temporary expedient and I would ask the Government, seeing that this is probably the last hour we shall be discussing the question in this Session—and during the next few months I believe the position is going to be worse because of the unfortunate weather—I do ask the Government to keep clearly in mind the fact that the people in the country are themselves beginning to realise that this is an international and not a national problem. In other words, although Parliament will not be in Session, the Government must apply themselves to the real fundamental remedy. You cannot dissociate this economic, industrial problem from our foreign policy and our foreign policy must be considered in relation to it.
  I want to ask the Minister one or two questions on the proposals that are now submitted. I want to know what progress is being made with the £25,000,000 Development Scheme. I disagree with many of my hon. Friends because I attach more importance to its bearing on the unemployed problem than to any other matter. Once before the Government brought proposals up here advocating it. I was in the country at the time, but I took an early opportunity of seeing the Prime Minister and urging it upon him. I did so for this reason. We are all agreed that doles are no good, that they are demoralising and not beneficial. People turn round and say we must find work, but here, again, let us differentiate in the work, because loading a barrow and unloading it is such work that one might just as well give doles as spend money in that way. It is, as an hon. Friend near me says, exercise, and that is the best that can be said for it. On the other hand, you will not get remunerative labour, no matter how willing individuals may be, by putting men to do work that they are not accustomed to and which is abhorrent to them. You cannot get a remunerative return
  724
  from turning clerks into navvies or by putting skilled engineers on the roads. The real thing we must aim at is to try and provide work such as the men are used to, which work, although at the moment it may not be remunerative, yet will ultimately become so. In other words, where there is development of trade in bad times, there may be practical schemes which will provide work during the period of depression, but will also be useful and remunerative in due course. I believe that this £25,000,000, if it is properly used, may mean an expenditure of £125,000,000. It is a great mistake to assume that it is only £25,000,000 that will be spent. I can conceive of £200,000,000 worth of work being thus provided, while the responsibility of the Government is limited to £25,000,000.
  Let me give one practical illustration. Prior to 1914 the average capital expenditure of the railways of the country was between £10,000,000 and £12,000,000 a year, and that money was spread out in many ways. In 1914 that expenditure ceased, and from 1914 down to 1920 there has been practically nothing spent in that direction, with the result that districts that might have been developed are not developed, and remunerative work which could have been undertaken has not been undertaken. The railway companies are in this difficulty at the moment. They cannot possibly, owing to their financial position, go on to the market to get money on anything like the terms on which they can do the work, although the work when done would be useful. Take the electrification scheme for London. Do not assume that there would be one scheme for London alone. Manchester, Glasgow, and Edinburgh, and all our large towns, require development in this way, and this scheme of the Government, if it is properly used, and if the Government themselves interpret it in a generous and businesslike way. I have limited my remarks to the railways because I naturally know much more on that subject than on other subjects, but I do not want it to be understood for one moment that these developments are to be limited to the railways. There are very many other directions in which they can be used, but I used the railways as an illustration only in order to destroy another phase of the argument which is being used at the present moment.

  725
  People are telling us that we must not spend, that we must save money and economise on everything. If our export trade has gone wrong, as it has done, and if we are to economise and not to spend anything on our own trade, instead of helping the unemployed, we are going to create more unemployment. What we have to do when talking about expenditure is to differentiate between what is waste and what is expenditure that will provide useful work. That is the real difference between the two, and I do hope that my right hon. Friend will pay some particular attention to it.
  I hope he will also take note of the suggestion of the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall) and let us see if we cannot make this unfortunate business as human as possible. Nothing is worse than those horrible queues which we sometimes see. I am quite sure it does not require a Labour Member or any other Member to realise that. We are all men, we are all human. This sudden change in the weather during the last four days has had terrible effects. This is how it struck me on the first morning when I got up, and I believe it struck other hon. Members in the same way. I know from experience what during the past month, when the weather has been so good and when trade union benefits and the Government benefit have been exhausted, has been happening in the home. The weather has been fairly warm, and consequently clothes have been pawned. The bedclothes have been pawned, and now has come this severe weather. These poor people are practically starving, and we have to recognise we cannot have men waiting in queues to draw their unemployed benefit and starving in the cold at the same time. I believe the churches and chapels and all other institutions ought to come together and say, not that this is someone else's business, but this is a great human business and we must all contribute our little bit to it. This is a time above all others when starving and cold men are more susceptible to listen to the most poisonous and dangerous propaganda. Many months ago, in a speech I made outside this House, I said that in my judgment the one thing that was necessary was increased production. To-day I am asked this question, "You were one of the people who encouraged increased production. Look at us now. By working hard, are we not
  726
  out of work?" My answer to-day is the same as it was then. Increased production is as necessary to-day as it was then. We are suffering, not from overproduction, but from under-consumption. It is that it is easy to go to a mass of working men and say, "If you work four hours a day it will provide work for so many more people." Develop that argument. Why not work two days only, or why work at all? While, however, that is taking place the dangers are obvious, and the best way to counteract those dangers is to meet them fairly and squarely by saying that the Government have their responsibility in this matter and will treat it boldy and squarely and do their best. I believe we shall get over our difficulties in that spirit.
  I conclude by saying to the Minister of Labour—continue to administer these Acts in the most human way possible; above all, impress upon your colleagues what I believe to be the general sense of this House, namely, that it is not by measures of this kind that we can solve the problem. Capital and Labour, as has been pointed out, can do much themselves. I do not agree with the suggestion that has been made that better relations between Capital and Labour are not necessary. I believe them to be necessary, and I believe it to be our duty to advocate them. We have all to stand for a square deal. Above all, we have to realise that the nation is bigger than ourselves. The next few months will be a testing time. The next few months, probably, will find us face to face with graver difficulties even than in some of the dark periods of the War. Let there be sane patriotism, a sane desire to do the right thing whatever be the cost, and, above all, a recognition that from 1914 to 1918 this country was saved, not by a class or by a section, but by all its citizens contributing of their best. A nation that is capable of such sacrifice ought to recognise its obligations to those who made that sacrifice on its behalf.
  Mr. G. ROBERTS: After listening to speeches which have ranged over the whole earth and beneath the earth and above the earth, it is very gratifying to hear my right hon. Friend bringing us back to actualities. I congratulate him, not only upon the matter of his speech, but upon the courage which inspired it. I have delivered speeches of that character

  727
  myself during recent years, and in respect of them I have incurred a good deal of disfavour. I do not complain of that, because it is the duty of us all to form our own conclusions and to take the consequences of them. One or two points have emerged from the discussion, upon which I should like very briefly to engage the attention of the House. It is a very interesting experience with me to hear that there is widespread unemployment amongst agricultural labourers. No one will accuse me of lack of sympathy with the agricultural labourer. I am of agricultural labouring stock myself, and I have often stated in this House that the one thing for which I should like to be remembered would be having contributed something to alleviate the status of the class from which I originate. A few nights since, speaking at a meeting, I made the statement which has just been made by my right hon. Friend, that one of the most remarkable features of the present phase of unemployment was its acuteness amongst agricultural labourers. Towards the close of the meeting, a man questioned me as to whether I really meant that unemployment was rife amongst agricultural labourers. I said that that was my information, and that I had heard it stated in this House—an assembly where all statements could be very closely investigated—and it had not there been denied. Then this man, who, as I ultimately learned, was a large farmer, informed me that he had the greatest possible difficulty in securing labour for his farms. He told the meeting that he had sent lorries out in the morning in order to collect agricultural labourers to work on his various farms. One is not in a position to judge as between the two statements. On the one hand, I am informed that there is widespread unemployment, and on the other that there is a demand for labour on farms which cannot be supplied.
  The explanation may be the lack of mobility on the part of the agricultural labourer. It may be that employment is open in some districts while there is unemployment amongst agricultural labourers in others, and that we are unable to bring the two together. Therefore, I am still of the opinion that it is a mistake to urge the destruction of the Employment Exchange system, for, unless
  728
  we have some machinery in the country which can co-ordinate demand and supply we shall still have this complaint of unemployment amongst agricultural labourers, on the one hand, and employers requiring labour and unable to get it, on the other. While we are pursuing what appears at the moment to be an economy, I am certain that ultimately it is going to prove the most wasteful form of economy that we have ever undertaken. I know that my right hon. Friend is going into this whole question of Unemployment Exchanges and Wages Boards during the coming Recess, and I want him, after due consideration of this problem, to advise the House of Commons as to whether a mistake is not being made in embarking upon what appears to me to be the destruction of the Employment Exchange system. When I held the position which my right hon. Friend adorns so well, the plan that I had adumbrated was not only the retention of Employment Exchanges in our urban areas, but the extension of the system into our rural districts, because we can see at once that, unless we provide the farmer, the cultivator of the soil, with the means of coming into contact with other districts, we shall never satisfy ourselves as to the correctness of the allegations of unemployment on the one hand, and the demand for labour on the other.
  I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby has lifted this question above party. He has made the admission that, even if the party of which he is a distinguished member had happened to be in power, the probability is that they would not have done much better than the present Government. I want the unemployed in the country to understand that, to whatever party we are attached, we are anxious that work shall be provided for them, and that, if we cannot furnish them with work, we recognise at least their human needs, and that they should not be allowed to lack the common necessities of life. That sentiment is not a monopoly of any class; it is common to all classes and sections of the House of Commons, and I delight that that fact has been placed on record. There has been a tendency during these discussions to place the Government proposals in a watertight compartment, and to say of any particular proposal that it is what is proposed as a solution of the unemployment problem. That is an

  729
  unfair presentment of the case. In my trade union propaganda days I often had to rebut that sort of allegation. I often used to be charged with trying to attract men into a trade union membership when, as a result of that Membership, they would only get 6s., 7s. or 8s. a week if they were out of work. But we never put that 6s. or 7s. or 8s. a week as being adequate in itself for a man who was out of work. We did claim, however, that if a man had that sum coming in when he was out of work, added to whatever other provision he was able to make either privately or in association with his fellows in other directions, it was a very acceptable sum and made it worth his while to join the trade union. We have advised the Government throughout all their proposals, and the Government proposals, in the main, are based on our trade union practise and experience; and I say that it is unfair to lift a particular proposal out and present it to the country as being the whole of what the Government have to offer in a state of great national emergency. I want to take the opportunity of emphasising the point which was made so well by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, that, irrespectively of party in this House, we are all deeply anxious to do what we can to alleviate the lot of our unfortunate fellow citizens who are afflicted with unemployment, and that desire is not the monopoly of any one class or any one section.
  Earl WINTERTON: I feel that I must raise a question which has been raised in previous Debates, and which has been referred to by the right hon. Member for Derby in his very moderate and statesmanlike speech, namely, the question of the abnormal amount of unemployment at the present time in the agricultural industry.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: And by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley).
  Earl WINTERTON: Yes. I think it is right that Members representing agricultural constituencies should make their voices heard in this Debate, in order that it may not be supposed that the question of unemployment is purely an industrial question, using the word "industrial" as opposed to "agricultural." There is a great danger, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for
  730
  Derby has pointed out, that it may be considered as a purely industrial question. There would not be time for me to give at any length the reasons why this state of affairs has arisen, but I believe it is more serious in the South of England than at any period since the appalling years of depression that succeeded the Napoleonic Wars. I think that to some extent it has been possibly due in the past to the restrictions imposed by the Wages Board. I will not go into that now, because it is a controversial matter, and, moreover, the Wages Board has ceased to function. It is due mainly to the appalling depression which exists in agriculture at the present time. Just as, in ordinary industry, a man who is faced with a reduced profit for what he manufactures or produces has to cut down his labour bill, so in agriculture men are being dismissed from farms and estates in ones and twos and threes until the aggregate result is really serious.
  There is another reason why, in my opinion, agricultural unemployment is so bad at the present time. It is an interesting historical fact that we had in the country districts of England a better system for dealing with abnormally bad times as regards unemployment than existed in industry. It was, in a sense, a legacy from the old days of the monastries, which owned large areas of agricultural land in the rural districts of England. The duty was imposed upon them—I think by Statute, but I speak really without historical knowledge—of finding work for agriculturists who were out of work, and that duty was formerly carried out to a very large extent on the large estates in the country. Many a large landlord, in times of agricultural depression, when there was unemployment, employed on his estate in one capacity or another—sometimes in villages far distant from his actual residence—men who were out of employment, giving them work at hedging, ditching, in the woods, and so on. It is not sufficiently realised that that system has gone by the board—has ceased to exist. It has gone and agriculture now is carried on, so far as it can be carried on, on purely commercial principles. That is an unfortunate phrase, because the majority of farmers are not making any money at all at present, but it is carried on by men whose whole profession is farming. The old landlord system has gone by the board.

  731
  I am not on this occasion prepared to argue whether it was a good system or a bad one. No doubt a great deal of the employment of surplus men in bad times was uneconomic employment, but that is not the point. The point is that labour was in that way absorbed. Under the old system a large landlord who owned all the houses in a village and all the farms around, if men were out of work—not men who necessarily worked for him, but for his tenants or for others—got them to work somehow during the winter. He cannot do it to-day. He has not the same responsibility, and he has not the power to do it owing to the enormous financial burden. Therefore we are really faced with a very serious situation in the country districts.
  I should like to put a point which has been put to me in the form of questions by electors at meetings. In Sussex we are in a peculiar position, inasmuch as some urban districts are scattered about among purely agricultural districts. You find two men living in cottages side by side. Both are out of work. One is, say, employed in the engineering trade. If he is within his period he is drawing unemployment pay. Both men are paying the same rent and the standard of living is the same, but the other wretched man has either to go on the rates or starve. That is unquestionably causing serious discontent among agricultural labourers. I have been surprised at the feeling that has been expressed on the subject. I have been asked why did not the Government put agriculture under the Unemployment Bill. I gave the reply which was given by the right hon. Gentleman, that the representatives, both of the farmers and of the workers, asked that agriculture should be left out of the Bill. The answer of these men is, "That is all very well, but why cannot we all be on the same basis? Why should this man receive the unemployment dole and I get nothing?" It is a state of affairs which must really eventually be met. Under this Bill considerable sums of money are put aside for drainage and afforestation, and I am sure under the energetic chairmanship of Lord Lovat, to whom the House and the country owe a great debt of gratitude, as also to the admirable staff of permanent officials and voluntary workers, the Forestry
  732
  Commission will spend this money, over and above the money they have under the Forestry Bill, to the best possible advantage, and it will be of considerable benefit. Of course, if you are going to afforest, it is most economic to do it on a very large scale indeed. It is better to have a scheme that takes in 5,000 or 6,000 acres than 1,000 acres. Clearly in those parts where there is a lot of wood it is much easier to carry out a big scheme. From that point of view we should benefit very much in Sussex. I hope the money will be spread evenly over the country as far as possible where-ever you get a condition of agricultural unemployment and land suitable for afforestation.
  I believe under the Bill money is also being granted for drainage. I hope a very careful survey will be made of land which can be improved by drainage. I hope in these drainage schemes it is not going to be merely a question of improving the amenities of a certain district. It is important that people should not have their houses flooded if it can be avoided. There are certain districts where, as the result of the flooding of rivers in winter, houses are under water, but I hope it will also be taken into consideration that there are many thousands of acres of land where there is no damage done to the inhabitants living there, because there are very few houses which cannot be used for any agricultural or pastural purposes because of flooding. There are thousands of such acres, for example, in Norfolk. I hope the Government will go boldly into the question and see whether, as the result of drainage schemes, large quantities of land can be brought into use. To my mind, if that could be done it would be one of the very best means which could be adopted of dealing with unemployment because it would be economic work which would eventually give a return and it would confer far greater benefit than the building of an esplanade at some sea-side place, or even improving roads. I do not want to introduce anything which may seem controversial, but I have some doubt as to whether the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues, and even he himself, have sufficient power within the Cabinet to deal with this drainage question on a big and comprehensive scheme. I am not generally in

  733
  favour of Committees, especially of Cabinet Committees, but I should like to see a Cabinet Committee which would go into this question of drainage and schedule England into areas which could be suitably treated in that way. I am sure if it is done on a sufficiently big scale it would result in very great benefits to the future of the country besides finding work for a very large number of the unemployed. While I have pointed out to the Government the dangerous and difficult situation which has arisen owing to the amount of agricultural unemployment, it is only fair to say I do not think they can be blamed for having left agriculture out of their Measures in view of the remarks made by the representatives of both workers and employers in the industry that they should be left out, and the responsibility, if any, rests on those people, but it is a matter which will require very careful consideration by the Government, as agricultural depression is going to be not a thing of to-day but a thing of many days and possibly several years, whether it will not have to be included or else some different system have to be found generally to deal with agriculture. I do not think you can go on having two classes of men side by side in the same district, one of whom is receiving money to keep body and soul together and the other of whom is bound to fall back on the rates.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: It is wholly consistent with our responsibilities to the people that our last word in this Session, as indeed our first, should be devoted to this distressing problem of unemployment and that we should take counsel together, as we have done in these three weeks, in the endeavour to find a remedy and a palliative. I cordially agree that the debates we have had have been most useful and helpful to the Government generally, and particularly to myself as Minister of Labour. I listened with very great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall), who called attention to the great hardship of long queues of waiting people outside Employment Exchanges, particularly now that we have had three or four days, and there is a likelihood of the continuance, of very much colder weather than we have experienced for a very long time past, and I fully agree that it is up to us to do all that is possible to reduce that hardship as far
  734
  as we can, especially if the weather promises to be much more severe than it was last winter. The House will perhaps like to know exactly the figures that we have to deal with. At the end of June last we had 2,170,000 persons registered as wholly unemployed, and registered on short time over another 1,000,000. The latest returns I have, that is for 4th November, are 1,720,000 wholly unemployed, while the short time has come down to just over 250,000. These figures are higher than those which have been shown by the registration returns of the last few weeks. We have got down, as far as registration is concerned, to 1,370,000 at the beginning of last month, but of course we had a very large number of persons who had exhausted their benefit under the Insurance Act and have given up registration. I have always realised that when the new special period of unemployment benefit began again, as it did last Saturday, the great bulk of these persons would have to be added to the register to give the true figure of unemployment, and I knew that to the 1,370,000 at the beginning of last month I should have to add something like 400,000. I have always spoken in these three weeks of the true figure being 1,750,000. It was not a bad estimate.
  What does all this come to? It means that during the last four months, July, August, September, and October, the number of registrations of persons wholly unemployed has in fact come down about 400,000—on the average 100,000 a month—and the number of persons on short time has come down from 1,000,000 to 250,000. We start the winter with 1,750,000 persons registered as wholly unemployed. I really do not think the House quite appreciates what that means. It means that in the poorer parts of industrial areas on any given day, twice a week, and on one day for payment, from 10,000 to 15,000 persons have to pass through the Exchange. It is not a question of a thousand or two, as an hon. Member said just now. I was very glad to hear an hon. Member pay the tribute he did to the loyalty and patience of the Employment Exchange staffs. They very well deserve anything we can say on their behalf. During all this long period of depression, they have been most patient in their endeavour to meet these poor people's needs as smoothly and expeditiously as possible.

  735
  As regards the Exchange premises they are in many eases quite unsuitable. All along I have endeavoured to meet increasing unemployment by hiring temporary premises. Unemployment began to develop about the end of August last year, and we ran continuously deeper and deeper into it till the end of June this year, when we got a break and a reduction of 100,000 a month down to the present, when we are faced with 1,750,000. To meet the needs of the people as the numbers increased during that long period of ten months without a break, I hired temporary premises. I have hired churches, schools, cinema halls, even private houses where I could not get anything else. From September, 1920, when things began to go wrong in the way of industrial depression, down to the peak, the end of June, 1921, I had in fact, in the most hardly-hit districts, hired 500 sets of temporary premises for the very reason my hon. Friend put to me, to see if the thing could be done with a little more expedition, and the people might not wait so long for their benefit. My hon. Friend says: "Surely the religious bodies, municipalities, and others, with a hard winter before us, will place their buildings at your disposal?" I was very glad to hear that, and I hope they will do so. They have not been unmindful of our need in the past. I have been able to get temporary buildings to the extent I have stated, but with the winter before us it would be very helpful indeed if we could secure, and I am sure we shall when we make application, such additional accommodation of one sort and another as is needed.
  7.0 P.M.
  As regards the staff in the Exchanges, in September, 1920, when things began to go back from the point of view of employment, I had got the figures down to 7,131 persons. Then, as unemployment grew and grew, I had to increase that staff by taking on casual employés to meet the needs of the unemployed persons until, when we came to the peak at the end of June, 1921, my 7,131 members of the staff had become 20,407.I should like the House to know that. They were appointed because I could not do without them, and I was bound to meet the reeds of these poor people. They were appointed on a casual basis, and they moved out of their offices directly the
  736
  figures began to go down, as they did from that time on. They went down very considerably from the 30th June until recent weeks. In recent weeks I have had to increase them again by at least 1,500 to meet the demands of last Saturday, and I shall increase them on a casual basis. They will be all ex-service men, every man of them, and I think I have the backing and the authority of the House when I say that, with care and discrimination, I shall increase them as far as is necessary in order to see that no undue hardship falls on these people.
  With regard to relaxations of procedure, I have already arranged in the districts where there are the largest number of registrations that they can receive payments twice a week instead of once. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean suggested that there should be three payments a week. He will see that that would mean a very great change in administration, but I will look into it again. At any rate, we pay twice a week in all the heavily registered areas. I have arranged a time system under which people are invited to come at certain hours during the day. The difficulty is that those whose names come later in the alphabet come as early as all the others, and so add to the congestion and crowding. I cordially agree, however, that we must do all we can with these large numbers and with the difficulties that confront us to reduce hardship as much as possible. I assure my hon. Friends that we shall do whatever we can in that direction.
  The right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) asked me to state how we were getting on with the schemes that have been discussed by the House during the last three weeks. The House is fully familiar with the Measures which we have brought forward during that time. I can assure them that no time will be lost in pressing forward with them along each of their several lines. So far, of course, the number of schemes actually started is necessarily small. There are inevitably certain arrangements to be made in each case by the local authority. Our intention is that as far as the central departments are concerned, we shall cut down to the very minimum all matters of red tape and circumlocution in dealing with these schemes. It is really the fact that the virtue goes out of them if we do not do these things quickly. The esesnce of the matter is that he who gives quickly

  737
  gives twice. Already, in many directions, I am grateful to say there is evidence that the municipal authorities, although they are very heavily embarrassed with their own local commitments, and although they have been helping us for 12 months by operating relief schemes, are coming forward to meet the winter necessity with a determination to assist, which, as I say, speaking on behalf of the Government and of the House, deserves our gratitude.
  As the House knows, to put the whole thing shortly, our first objective is to endeavour to revivify trade and industry on an economic basis. To that end there is the Trades Facilities Bill, which, in the first place widely extends the Export Credit scheme. I understand from those responsible, that the amount of credit sanctioned Dr given by the Export Credits Department in the week ending 3rd November—since this expanded scheme was opened—totalled some £340,000, as against £186,000 the week before. So far, so good, and inquiries on a much larger scale than that have been undertaken. Another feature is the guarantee which we offer in respect of capital up to £25,000,000 for capital works, which will immediately assist the unemployment problem and ultimately add to the prosperity of the country. The House heard at Question Time to-day, from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, that the Committee has been set up; and I am advised by him that the Committee will meet next week for the purposes of the consideration of schemes which will be laid before them.
  As regards relief works, we have had schemes in operation for a long time, with the assistance of those local authorities. During the last year £25,000,000 have been set aside, either by the local authorities, in conjunction with the Government and the Road Fund or by the local authorities themselves, for work mostly on new arterial road-making or road repairing and maintenance. Ninety thousand men are at work to-day completing these schemes, put in hand as the result of the operations initiated a year ago. In addition to that, under the new schemes which we are now undertaking, and in which we offer to assist the local authorities by the payment of the interest and sinking fund for a period of time, the Secretary of the Unemployment Grants Committee informs me that some
  738
  hundreds of schemes have been submitted by over 200 local authorities, and that proposals are continuing to come in.
  Mr. MILLS: From agricultural areas?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I will come on to that. The schemes which have been sent forward, though it is not certain that they will all come within the conditions of the Unemployment Grants Committee, or comply with the Regulations, represent a sum of no less than £6,000,000. I cannot say whether all those schemes will conform to the conditions under which Government assistance will be payable. It is, however, an evidence of the desire of the local authorities to help, who almost invariably are very heavily rated at present, and I desire, as Minister of Labour, to express my gratitude to them for their willingness to come forward again and share with us in this very heavy burden.
  As to the agricultural labourers, the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) said, Would it not have been folly for the agricultural labourer to have wanted to come into the compulsory insurance scheme? There was no reason why he should have so desired; it would have been stupid of him. That was because at that time there was little or no unemployment.
  Mr. CAUTLEY: He was protected by the Agriculture Act.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: My hon. Friend does not quite understand the principles of insurance. It will not do for people deliberately to stand aside—
  Mr. G. EDWARDS: During the last three weeks, when we realised the position of the agricultural labourers, was not an application made for their admission under the insurance scheme, or that something should be done for them?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I do not want to pursue the reasons why agricultural labourers were not brought in, but so far as these schemes are concerned, part of our policy is to assist works of land drainage and improvement, forestry, and light railways, and preliminary steps are well advanced in a number of cases. I assure the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) that our main objective is to find work for the unemployed, and that we shall look at the schemes from that point of view.
  Earl WINTERTON: And regard them if possible from the economic point of view.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: Certainly. The Minister of Agriculture tells me that some 30 schemes of land drainage and improvement have been already submitted to him, and that schemes from drainage hoards are coming in well. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport informs me that there are several light railway schemes under his consideration. I need not go into the question of the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Fund, which we have been so recently discussing. It is a little supplemental assistance to the unemployed insurance benefit for the wives, and for children under 14 and between 14 and 16 if they have to go to day school. What we hope from it is that during the next six months, or 21 weeks of those six months, 750,000 wives will secure this supplemental assistance over and above the insurance benefit of 5s. a week, and that 1,400,000 children will secure the small sum of 1s. a week.
  Mr. MILLS: In view of the fact that you have included miners in the insurance scheme, is it not possible, after a legitimate waiting period, to include the agricultural labourers who are faced with certain unemployment during the next 12 months?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: The hon. Member will see that agriculture is excluded from the Act and that an Amendment of the Measure will be required. It is hard luck on these poor people, whom we are all trying to help as far as we can, that the wintry weather should have come on so soon. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean that it will be our duty to see that their requirements are met so far as we can. It will be the duty of the Government Departments, and I am sure of the municipalities, to get ahead with the schemes now in hand with all the expedition possible.
  In order that we may proceed with the Prorogation I now venture to appeal to the House to be good enough to give us the Third Reading of this Bill.
  Mr. J. JONES: I do not wish to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I should like to ask a question. Is the
  740
  right hon. Gentleman making any arrangement whereby queues outside the Unemployment Exchanges during the winter can be obviated?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That question was put by some of the hon. Member's colleagues, and has been answered.
  Mr. MILLS: If it is possible that a totally defeated country, Germany, can maintain a Labour Exchange in which they search every possible application for employment, and see if they can put the people into legitimate employment, that ought, at least, to be done here. There are thousands of men in this country to-day who are slipping into disease for lack of adequate repair of their footwear. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the system of administration in Berlin, he will find that there every section of the unemployed are not only housed, but they are fed, at bare cost of commodities and cooking. Men and women who are capable of repairing boots or clothes are taken from the ranks of the unemployed. If you could remove from the unemployment list even 10 men or women in each area, in order to prevent the boots of the unemployed from falling apart, you would be doing something to keep the efficiency of the people up to the normal. I have given a letter to the right hon. Gentleman, to which I hoped he would have referred.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I have only just got it.
  Mr. MILLS: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give it consideration. It is a letter from a member of the Engineers' Society, of which I am a member, who is informed by the society of which he is a member that because he has been unemployed for 12 months, because he has not been able to pay the contribution that should have been paid by himself, along with that of the employer and the State, he is disentitled to any form of benefit, and is excluded from all participation under the Health Insurance Act. You cannot point to any trade union in the British Isles which would treat its own members in that way, even in the worst periods of its financial adversity.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Cambridge University and Town Gas Light Company, which was presented on the 8th November, be approved."—[Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson.]

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS, 1882 TO 1919.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parish of Bedworth, in the rural district of Foleshill, and the urban district of Bulkington, both in the county of Warwick, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the parishes of Steyning, Bramber, and Beeding, in the rural district of Steyning West, in the administrative county of West Sussex, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban districts of Belper and Heage and the parish of Milford in the rural district of Belper, all in the county of Derby, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the burgh of Dunblane and part of the parish of Dunblane and Lecropt, in the county of Perth, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and
  742
  confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919 for the Amendment of the Hoyland Nether Electric Lighting Order, 1912, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved."—[Mr. Neal.]
  Mr. SPEAKER: A Royal Commission is expected shortly. The sitting, therefore, will be suspended until it is announced. I shall then cause the bells to be rung, and resume the Chair.
  Sitting suspended accordingly at Twenty minutes after Seven o'clock.
  Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair at Twenty-seven minutes after Seven o'clock.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to
  Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill, without Amendment.
  Amendment to one of their Amendments to Local Authorities (Financial Provisions) Bill, without Amendment.

  ROYAL ASSENT.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
  The House went, and, having returned,
  Mr. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that the House has been to the House of Peers, where a Commission under the Great Seal was read authorising the Royal Assent to:

  1. Appropriation (No. 2) Act, 1921.

  2. Poor Law Emergency Provisions (Scotland) Act, 1921.

  3. Trade Facilities Act, 1921.

  4. National Health Insurance (Prolongation of Insurance) Act, 1921.

  5. Local Authorities (Financial Provisions) Act, 1921.

  6. Perth Corporation (Waterworks, etc.) Order Confirmation Act, 1921.

  7. Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Act, 1921.

PROROGATION.

  HIS MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the High Commissioners, delivered His Majesty's Most Gracious speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
  The Session of Parliament which closes to-day has been marked by events of great importance to the welfare of the British Empire and to the peace of the world. It is not yet possible to say that peace is firmly established in Europe and it must be long before the world can recover from the strain and sacrifice of the War; but good progress has been made towards the solution of the most critical problems of home and foreign affairs.
  I have welcomed with deep satisfaction the Prime Ministers of the Dominions and the Representatives of India, who have been in Conference with My Advisers here. They had questions of great moment to discuss in common and grave decisions to make. Their presence for that purpose has been invaluable, and I trust that it may be found possible to arrange regular meetings of a like character for the further exchange of views and the discussion of common interests.
  Their deliberations on foreign policy dealt in particular with the problems of the Pacific and Far East and with the questions arising out of the Empire's obligations under the Treaty of Versailles and the other Treaties of Peace. I am happy to know that on all these issues My Governments here and oversea are in close accord.
  The Conference gave serious attention to the defence of the Empire and to the maintenance of an adequate measure of sea-power. It was unanimously decided that the naval strength of the Empire should be equal to that of any other Power.
  As a result of the proposals made by the Allied Powers to Germany last May and accepted by her, satisfactory progress has been made by the German Government in the execution of their financial and disarmament obligations under the Treaty of Versailles.
  A serious rising of the Poles in Upper Silesia led to the British troops, which had been withdrawn in April, being sent back, and after difficult and anxious negotiations the insurrection was overcome, and the authority of the International Commission was re-established.
  The insurrection unfortunately delayed the negotiations for a settlement of the frontier, and at a meeting of the Allied and Associated Powers in Paris in August last, it was decided to invite the League of Nations to examine the whole question and to make recommendations for a settlement.
  Those recommendations have recently been received, and steps are being taken to give effect to them. There is reason to hope that they will be loyally carried out by the two parties principally concerned, and that a peaceful and honourable settlement will result.
  Peace has been definitely established between the Allied Powers and Hungary. The Treaty signed at Trianon on the 4th June, 1920, having been ratified by the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Czecho-Slovakia, Serbia, Rumania, Siam, and Hungary, the ratifications were deposited at the French Ministry for Foreign Affairs on the 26 th July last.
  The efforts, made by My Government at the Allied Conference in March and renewed in June, to establish peace in the Near East were in each case rendered fruitless by the renewed outbreak of hostilities between the Greek and Turkish, forces in Anatolia. It is my earnest desire to see these hostilities followed by an early and just peace, and My Government are prepared, in conjunction with their Allies, to take the first opportunity of furthering this end.
  I have followed with great satisfaction the steps taken by the President of the United States to promote the reduction of expenditure on armaments, an object which commands the fullest sympathy of My Government.
  It was in this spirit that My Government gladly accepted the invitation extended by the United States Government to a Conference on Disarmament about to be held at Washington. It is My earnest hope that the labours of the Conference will be crowned with success.
  Negotiations have for some time been in progress, but have not yet reached a conclusion, between My Government and a delegation nominated by His Highness the Sultan of Egypt with a view to determine the future relationship of that country with Great Britain.
  Progress continues to be made in the reduction of expenditure in Iraq in accordance with the policy which has been explained in the House.
  My son, the Prince of Wales, has embarked upon his Eastern voyage, and within a few days will land for the first time on Indian soil. I pray that his visit may still further strengthen the ties of affection which for so long have linked My house with the Princes and peoples of India. Upon the conclusion of his Indian tour he will proceed on a visit to the great and friendly Empire of Japan.
  Members of the House of Commons,
  I thank you for the provision for the public Service. Although trade and commerce have been undergoing a period of unexampled depression, I learn with satisfaction that it is nevertheless anticipated that, while the estimated surplus for redemption of debt will not be realised, the financial year will end without a deficit on the Budget.
  Our debts, however, are great, our taxation heavy and burdensome to industry, and revenue cannot be maintained on the scale of the last three years. It is accordingly of vital importance to the financial stability of the country that expenditure should be still further restricted in every department of life, both public and private. The Government will continue to take advantage of every possible means to achieve this essential object in the field of public expenditure, and I confidently rely upon My people in their own practice to support the efforts of My Ministers.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
  The situation in Ireland still causes Me great anxiety. I earnestly exhort the leaders of all parties in Ireland, and all those in, whose hands lies the power to influence the negotiations and discussions now proceeding, to exercise patience and moderation with the object of establishing friendship and loyal cooperation between My people of that country. It is My firm belief, as it is My earnest prayer, that with forbearance and goodwill, and with an honest resolve to tread the paths of oblivion and forgiveness, an enduring peace will finally be achieved.
  The past summer has been notable for the occurrence of the most serious industrial conflict which has ever menaced the prosperity of the Realm. I take pride in the calm and serene spirit with which the trials of the coal stoppage were met by My people, and the freedom from strife and violence which characterised its course.
  This dispute unhappily aggravated the adverse effect of the sudden worldwide trade depression, which has inflicted upon the industries of this country the most grievous experience in their history.
  My Ministers have viewed with grave concern the continuance of the wide-spread unemployment which has attended the cessation of trade. Accordingly you have within the past few weeks given close and detailed consideration to this problem. Measures have received My assent designed, first, to encourage the revival of industry by facilitating the provision of capital for public undertakings and by assisting export trade, and, secondly, directly to provide employment on an extended scale by aiding local authorities and others to carry out various forms of beneficial works. Finally, in addition to the provision made by the Acts which you have already passed relating to Unemployment Insurance, a Measure has been framed to assist in mitigating the sufferings of those who remain unemployed, by the provision, out of moneys contributed by employers, employed and the State, of grants to wives and dependent children.
  The peaceful settlement of many difficult disputes by mutual negotiation between employers and workpeople, together with some indications of a revival of trade, encourage My hope that the worst may be over and that the state of employment may show from now onwards a steady, if slow, improvement. But the position is still full of anxiety, and My Ministers will continue to devote to this problem their vigilant care.
  It is not, however, so much to Acts of Parliament as to the proved good sense of employers and operatives, working together for the promotion of their common interests, that I look for the restoration of trade prosperity.
  My assent has also been given to Measures for the reorganisation of the railways and for the safeguarding of industry, and an Act for the Reform of the Licensing Laws has been passed with a universal and gratifying measure of agreement. But the legislation of the Session has been dominated by the difficult financial condition of the time. The imperative need for the avoidance of all fresh burdens and for the further curtailment of expenditure has required the modification of some Measures already passed and the postponement to happier times of the completion of other reforms.
  I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.
  Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read in. the House of Lords.
  After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
  MY LORDS AND MEMBERS,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to his Commands, Prorogue this Parliament to Monday, the thirtieth day of January, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-two, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Monday, the thirtieth day of January, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-two.
  End of the Third Session (opened, Tuesday, 15th February, 1921) of the Thirty-first Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the twelfth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George the Fifth.

TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  SERB-CROAT-SLOVENE KINGDOM.
  SERB-CROAT-SLOVENE KINGDOM.
  DUTCH FRUIT (IMPORTS).
  DUTCH FRUIT (IMPORTS).
  HOME-GROWN SUGAR, LIMITED.
  HOME-GROWN SUGAR, LIMITED.
  GERMAN EXPORTS (CONTROL).
  GERMAN EXPORTS (CONTROL).
  GERMAN CHINA AND EARTHENWARE.
  GERMAN CHINA AND EARTHENWARE.
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT.
  ARC-LAMP CARBONS.
  ARC-LAMP CARBONS.
  NEW INDUSTRIES.
  NEW INDUSTRIES.
  MESSRS. STEPHENS BROTHERS (BELZALDEHYDE).
  MESSRS. STEPHENS BROTHERS (BELZALDEHYDE).
  FOREIGN COMPETITION.
  FOREIGN COMPETITION.
  GERMAN IMPORTS.
  GERMAN IMPORTS.
  TOY PIANOS.
  TOY PIANOS.
  ELECTRIC LAMPS (TUNGSTEN WIRE).
  ELECTRIC LAMPS (TUNGSTEN WIRE).
  DOLLS.
  DOLLS.
  ADMINISTRATION OF ACT.
  ADMINISTRATION OF ACT.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  WHEAT COMMISSION.
  WHEAT COMMISSION.
  FOOD OFFICERS, WALES.
  FOOD OFFICERS, WALES.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (MR. WILSON AND MR. CLACK).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (MR. WILSON AND MR. CLACK).
  CIVIL SERVICE (ADMISSION REGULATIONS).
  CIVIL SERVICE (ADMISSION REGULATIONS).
  REGRADING (POST OFFICE).
  REGRADING (POST OFFICE).
  FOOD PRICES.
  FOOD PRICES.
  CZECH PRE-WAR DEBTS.
  CZECH PRE-WAR DEBTS.
  SURPLUS MACHINE TOOLS (DISPOSAL).
  SURPLUS MACHINE TOOLS (DISPOSAL).
HOUSING.
  TATE CHIPPING SODBURY SCHEME.
  TATE CHIPPING SODBURY SCHEME.
  PLASTERERS' WAGES.
  PLASTERERS' WAGES.
  COMPULSORY ACQUISITION (ARBITRATORS' AWARDS).
  COMPULSORY ACQUISITION (ARBITRATORS' AWARDS).
  RENTS.
  RENTS.
  TYPHOID FEVER, BOLTON-ON-DEARNE.
  TYPHOID FEVER, BOLTON-ON-DEARNE.
  LOCAL OFFICIALS (SALARIES).
  LOCAL OFFICIALS (SALARIES).
  PROBATIONER NURSES.
  PROBATIONER NURSES.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ILLEGAL EXPENDITURE).
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ILLEGAL EXPENDITURE).
  HOTEL METROPOLE (MUSIC AND DANCING LICENCE).
  HOTEL METROPOLE (MUSIC AND DANCING LICENCE).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  HEALTH INSURANCE.
  HEALTH INSURANCE.
  SEWERAGE SCHEME, WESTBURY.
  SEWERAGE SCHEME, WESTBURY.
  LOCAL RATES (PAYMENT).
  LOCAL RATES (PAYMENT).
  INSURANCE BENEFIT.
  INSURANCE BENEFIT.
  BRITISH SHIP REPAIRS, HAMBURG.
  BRITISH SHIP REPAIRS, HAMBURG.
  GENERATING STATION, BARKING.
  GENERATING STATION, BARKING.
  EX-OFFICERS.
  EX-OFFICERS.
  GROCERY AND PROVISION TRADE (WAGES).
  GROCERY AND PROVISION TRADE (WAGES).
  INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE, GENOA.
  INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE, GENOA.
  AERATED WATER TRADE BOARD.
  AERATED WATER TRADE BOARD.
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  STUDENTS (MAINTENANCE GRANT).
  STUDENTS (MAINTENANCE GRANT).
  LAND SETTLEMENT, SCOTLAND.
  LAND SETTLEMENT, SCOTLAND.
  CONTRACT WORK, CLONTARF AND KILLISTEL (COMPULSORY ABSENCE).
  CONTRACT WORK, CLONTARF AND KILLISTEL (COMPULSORY ABSENCE).
  EMPLOYMENT, DEVASTATED AREAS, FRANCE (WAGES).
  EMPLOYMENT, DEVASTATED AREAS, FRANCE (WAGES).
  CARDIFF INSTRUCTIONAL FACTORY.
  CARDIFF INSTRUCTIONAL FACTORY.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (DISCHARGES).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (DISCHARGES).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  MOTHER'S PENSION (MRS. WILLIAMS).
  MOTHER'S PENSION (MRS. WILLIAMS).
  TUBERCULOUS CASES, NORTHAMPTON.
  TUBERCULOUS CASES, NORTHAMPTON.
  ROYAL FLEET RESERVE (J. M 'ALPINE).
  ROYAL FLEET RESERVE (J. M 'ALPINE).
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
ROYAL NAVY.
  MESSRS. WARD AND COMPANY, BRISTOL (WAGES).
  MESSRS. WARD AND COMPANY, BRISTOL (WAGES).
  GERMAN FLOATING DOCK, HAMBURG.
  GERMAN FLOATING DOCK, HAMBURG.
  MESSRS. FENTON BROTHERS, SHEFFIELD (WAGES).
  MESSRS. FENTON BROTHERS, SHEFFIELD (WAGES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  CLERKS, ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS (PROMOTION).
  CLERKS, ROYAL ARMY SERVICE CORPS (PROMOTION).
  WAR CASUALTIES (OFFICERS AND MEN MISSING).
  WAR CASUALTIES (OFFICERS AND MEN MISSING).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (J. COLLIE).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (J. COLLIE).
  VOLUNTARY AGENCIES.
  VOLUNTARY AGENCIES.
  DECEASED SOLDIER'S ESTATE (R. WILLS).
  DECEASED SOLDIER'S ESTATE (R. WILLS).
  WESTFIELD PARK, CUPAR.
  WESTFIELD PARK, CUPAR.
  OFFICERS' RESERVE.
  OFFICERS' RESERVE.
  WAR LOSSES CLAIMS.
  WAR LOSSES CLAIMS.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  WARSASH PIER.
  WARSASH PIER.
  STAFF COLLEGE, ANDOVER.
  STAFF COLLEGE, ANDOVER.
  CIVIL AVIATION (STATE ASSISTANCE).
  CIVIL AVIATION (STATE ASSISTANCE).
POST OFFICE.
  CHRISTMAS DAY.
  CHRISTMAS DAY.
  POSTMASTER, WARE (APPOINTMENT).
  POSTMASTER, WARE (APPOINTMENT).
  CIRCULARS.
  CIRCULARS.
  PROMOTION, ABERDEEN.
  PROMOTION, ABERDEEN.
  ASSISTANT INSPECTOR, WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY.
  ASSISTANT INSPECTOR, WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY.
IRELAND.
  NORTHERN GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS (PREPARATION OF PLANS).
  NORTHERN GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS (PREPARATION OF PLANS).
  CARNDONAGH WORKHOUSE, DONEGAL.
  CARNDONAGH WORKHOUSE, DONEGAL.
  SINN FEIN COURTS.
  SINN FEIN COURTS.
  ROBBERY, ROSSCARBERY.
  ROBBERY, ROSSCARBERY.
  MALICIOUS DAMAGE (LORD ASHTOWN'S PROPERTY).
  MALICIOUS DAMAGE (LORD ASHTOWN'S PROPERTY).
  POLICE PENSIONS (P. QUINN).
  POLICE PENSIONS (P. QUINN).
  SOLICITORS.
  SOLICITORS.
  PROMOTION, MARYBOROUGH PRISON (W. W. EGAN).
  PROMOTION, MARYBOROUGH PRISON (W. W. EGAN).
  DUNDRUM ASYLUM (OVERTIME AND ALLOWANCES).
  DUNDRUM ASYLUM (OVERTIME AND ALLOWANCES).
  PRISON SERVICE.
  PRISON SERVICE.
INDIA.
  CIVIL SERVANTS, CENTRAL PROVINCES (PAY).
  CIVIL SERVANTS, CENTRAL PROVINCES (PAY).
  MOPLAH REBELLION.
  MOPLAH REBELLION.
  SURPLUS ARMY OFFICERS.
  SURPLUS ARMY OFFICERS.
  PUNJAB DISTURBANCES, 1919.
  PUNJAB DISTURBANCES, 1919.
  BRITISH SERVICE OFFICERS (PAY).
  BRITISH SERVICE OFFICERS (PAY).
  FISCAL COMMISSION.
  FISCAL COMMISSION.
  HOLLOWAY PRISON HOSPITAL (APPOINTMENTS).
  HOLLOWAY PRISON HOSPITAL (APPOINTMENTS).
  PUBLIC MEETINGS.
  PUBLIC MEETINGS.
  POLICE DISCIPLINE.
  POLICE DISCIPLINE.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
  JURY SERVICE (MIDWIVES).
  JURY SERVICE (MIDWIVES).
  SIR BASIL THOMSON.
  SIR BASIL THOMSON.
  NORTHAMPTON PRISON (R. BLIGHT).
  NORTHAMPTON PRISON (R. BLIGHT).
  CELLULOID DANGERS (FIRES).
  CELLULOID DANGERS (FIRES).
PRISON ADMINISTRATION.
  OFFICERS' SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCE.
  OFFICERS' SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCE.
  EDUCATION, GAMES, AND MEALS.
  EDUCATION, GAMES, AND MEALS.
  HOTEL METROPOLE.
  HOTEL METROPOLE.
  POLICE EXPENDITURE AND ESTABLISHMENT.
  POLICE EXPENDITURE AND ESTABLISHMENT.
SCOTLAND.
  SASINES OFFICE, EDINBURGH (DELAY).
  SASINES OFFICE, EDINBURGH (DELAY).
PEACE TREATIES.
  GERMAN DEBTS (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  GERMAN DEBTS (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  GERMAN MUNITIONS PLANT.
  GERMAN MUNITIONS PLANT.
  REPARATION PAYMENTS.
  REPARATION PAYMENTS.
  SUGGESTED BULGARIAN LOAN.
  SUGGESTED BULGARIAN LOAN.
  TREATY OF SÉVRES.
  TREATY OF SÉVRES.
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  JAPAN (OPIUM SALES IN CHINA).
  JAPAN (OPIUM SALES IN CHINA).
  NIGHT-BAKING.
  NIGHT-BAKING.
TRANSPORT.
  SHEFFIELD AND SOUTH YORKSHIRE CANAL.
  SHEFFIELD AND SOUTH YORKSHIRE CANAL.
  RAILWAY CHARGES (MERCHANDISE).
  RAILWAY CHARGES (MERCHANDISE).
  COAL AND FISH TRAFFIC (RAILWAY RATES).
  COAL AND FISH TRAFFIC (RAILWAY RATES).
  DANGEROUS ROAD TURNINGS, ABERCYNON.
  DANGEROUS ROAD TURNINGS, ABERCYNON.
  REGISTRATION AND LICENSING REGULATIONS.
  REGISTRATION AND LICENSING REGULATIONS.
  POOLE HARBOUR.
  POOLE HARBOUR.
  RAILWAY RETURNS.
  RAILWAY RETURNS.
  ROAD RATES, SCOTLAND.
  ROAD RATES, SCOTLAND.
  BANK OF ENGLAND (ACCOUNTS).
  BANK OF ENGLAND (ACCOUNTS).
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  COASTGUARD STATION, WARSASH.
  COASTGUARD STATION, WARSASH.
  COMMERCIAL UNDERTAKINGS (SALARIES).
  COMMERCIAL UNDERTAKINGS (SALARIES).
  STRAY CATS.
  STRAY CATS.
  BOYS' SCHOOLS (WOMEN TEACHERS).
  BOYS' SCHOOLS (WOMEN TEACHERS).
  AGRICULTURAL SCHOLARSHIPS.
  AGRICULTURAL SCHOLARSHIPS.
  CROWN TENANTS (MARKET GARDENING IMPROVEMENTS).
  CROWN TENANTS (MARKET GARDENING IMPROVEMENTS).
  POULTRY FARMING (RATES).
  POULTRY FARMING (RATES).
  GRENADA (TEACHERS' SALARIES).
  GRENADA (TEACHERS' SALARIES).
  PRIVATE FIRMS (WAR CLAIMS).
  PRIVATE FIRMS (WAR CLAIMS).
POST OFFICE.
  WEIGHTS AND SCALES (INACCURATE).
  WEIGHTS AND SCALES (INACCURATE).
  PROMOTION OF OFFICERS.
  PROMOTION OF OFFICERS.
  TRANSMISSION OF MONEY BY TELEGRAPH.
  TRANSMISSION OF MONEY BY TELEGRAPH.
  HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFIT (SILCHESTER CASE).
  HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFIT (SILCHESTER CASE).
Preamble
House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (FINANCIAL PRO- VISIONS) BILL.
Message from the Commons: That they have agreed to the Amendments made by the Lords to the Local Authorities (Financial Provisions) Bill with an Amendment.
Moved, That the Commons Amendment be now considered.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, there is one slight drafting Amendment to this Bill made in the House of Commons last night. It is purely verbal. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER NO. XXXIX.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, the Motion I submit to the House is placed on the Paper in order to allow the House to pass the Consolidated Fund Bill through all its stages at this sitting.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.—(The Earl of Crawford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES ACT AND RESEARCH.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE THE MARQUESS OF CREWE rose to call attention to the hardship caused to teachers and students of science in Universities
252
and colleges by the application of the provisions of the Safeguarding of Industries Act to the apparatus and material necessary for education and research in chemistry and physics.
The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I have placed upon the Paper this Notice dealing with some parts of the effects of the recent legislation embodied in the Safeguarding of Industries Act and also, in some degree, in the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, both of which were passed earlier this year. It would, of course, have been 'possible to institute a general discussion on the effects of the Safeguarding of Industries Act upon many branches of commerce and industry, and I have no doubt that some interesting facts would have been forthcoming if such a debate had been set on foot. I dare say one would have been initiated if it had not been for the very hurried Prorogation of Parliament, with regard to which, in spite of the statement made by His Majesty's Government, I confess I do not entirely apprehend the reasons which actuated them in bringing it on.
My Notice, however, deals only with a single branch, and I venture to think by no means the least important branch, of the effects, unforeseen, I think, to some extent, and I am sure undesired by the Government, of this recent legislation. That is to say, these Acts have exercised a distinctly hampering effect both upon research and upon the teaching of many branches of science in respects which can easily be proved. I well know there are some choice spirits who consider that too much money is spent upon education as it is; that the total amount ought to be reduced; and, possibly, that more ought to be spent upon Imperial Defence. But I would remind these patriotic persons that the complaints that are made do not proceed from those engaged in what they would consider the useless study of literary subjects, nor even upon the dreary discoveries of pure science, but that really interesting things such as poison gas, high explosives, and the guns from which they are fired, are perfected through the efforts and researches of those on whose behalf I am speaking.
But there is another much larger class who may look with suspicion upon a Motion of this kind, because they do not recognise the value of any scientific researches which are not immediately connected

253
with the application of research to some discoveries or inventions by which money van be made. I would remind them of what I am certain it is quite unnecessary to remind noble Lords opposite, and this is that it is altogether impossible to draw a line between what is described as pure research, on the one hand, and research, in its application to industry, on the other, it has very often happened in the course of a. piece of pure research, carried out apparently merely with the desire of adding to the store of scientific knowledge, and with no intention of its immediate application to industry, that discoveries have been made which have proved to be of the largest scope and of the most lucrative sort. Therefore, I think that not merely those interested in scientific studies, but the public generally, ought to observe with concern what is stated by teachers and students of science.
What has happened. is that under the Safeguarding of Industries Act a charge of 33⅓ per cent. was placed on imported articles regarded as having a bearing on what were known as key industries, those articles being vaguely and generally indicated in the schedule to the Act, but subject to the publication by the Board of Trade of a list defining the precise articles intended. That list has been issued. It occupies, I think, over seventy pages of print, and contains a vast number of articles used by chemists, and I shall say a word about it generally later on. Then it has to be remembered that if these articles are brought from a country in which the exchanges have collapsed they may be in sonic circumstances liable to another charge of 33⅓ per cent. That is to say, bringing the total up to 66⅔ per cent. There are also, in the particular case of Germany, the provisions of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, which makes articles of all kinds brought from that country liable to a charge which is nominally 30 per cent. but reduced to 26 per cent. The effect obviously is that a great many articles required by professors of chemistry, physics and engineering, and not only by the research students but also by the less advanced students whom they teach, are subjected to these high penalties before they can reach those who have to use them.
I may venture to read one or two not very long extracts from letters which I have received from eminent professors
254
engaged in research, and, of course, also in advanced teaching. This is from a distinguished professor at one of the old Universities. Speaking of the two Acts he says—
"There is no doubt that these Acts have the effect of appreciably diminishing the amount of research work that can be done in the laboratory."
He is a professor of chemistry.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL Does he say "will have" or "has had"?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: He says "these Acts have." It is in the present. Then he goes on, and this, of course, applies specially to the Reparation Act—
"The delay—in our experience never less than three months—caused in the delivery of chemicals required research (for a very huge proportion of these are not made in this country) and the increase in cost, an, such that we are practically compelled to prepare the greater part. of such materials in the laboratory instead of buying them. For the initial stages of a research the materials can be provided in advance, but it is impossible to foresee what will be required as the investigation develops. Thus, whereas before the war a man could spend his whole time m a research, he now has to devote a considerable proportion of it to the unproductive work of preparing materials which he should be able to buy, but which he is not in a position to wait three months for. The advanced teaching suffers also but, to a less extent. The position with respect to apparatus is similar. There are several pieces of apparatus not made in this country that would greatly facilitate research work which we have been prevented from obtaining."
Then he mentions two examples of intricate and important instruments which have been needed in the chemical department of his University during the last few months. Also he says—
"We have also suffered considerably through the delay which the Reparation Act causes in getting German hooks."
Still keeping for the moment to the professors of chemistry, I have received from another very distinguished professor a complaint that a large number of the subjects required for research in organic chemistry cannot be obtained and—what is much more important—never will be made in this country.
I have here two lists. One is a German price-list of organic and inorganic chemicals and of solutions, all of which are liable to be required in chemical research, and, of course, a great many of them in teaching chemistry. There are 1,863 of these. I also have a list, which I believe to be

255
complete, of those chemicals which are being made in England and can now be supplied. They are 678 in number, that is to say, between 36 and 37 per cent. of the number which are being made in Germany. All the things in the English list can be found in the German list, but only about a third of those in the German list are to be found in the English list.
The professors have asked the principal chemical manufacturers in this country as to what hopes they have of redressing the balance and of supplying the remaining materials, and they have said, as I am informed, that there is about a further 10 per cent. which, if they could get a market for them, they would be prepared to make, but that they would not be able in any circumstances to make the others. It must be remembered that these subjects are very often wanted in quite small quantities, some of them are very expensive, and there is no prospect, so far as I know, that they can be prepared in this country.
I think your Lordships will appreciate that if you take into account the very long period in which this industry has been going in Germany, the long time during which it has benefited not only by the interest but by the pecuniary support of the Government, the conditions of greater personal knowledge under which a large proportion of the German operatives work, there does not seem to be much prospect of anything like a successful attempt; in this country to do here all that, has been done in Northern and Western Germany in that regard.
The Board of Trade list was issued in the middle of September. It includes a very large number Of subjects, required not only in chemistry but also in physics, which cannot be obtained in this country; for example, compounds of some of the rare metal earths —those extraordinary substances upon which so much research has been expended, and, as the noble Viscount opposite (Lord Peel) knows, in some cases with some extraordinary results for the advantage of industry. I suppose it is not too much to say that gas as an illuminant would have disappeared almost entirely if it had not been for the invention of the gas mantle, made with two of these rare earths, thorium and cerium, and due, of course, to the most elaborate research by distinguished chemists. That is an instance of what you may hope for if research is encouraged, and of what you may lose if it is discouraged.
256
I will read an extract from another letter. This is from one of the most distinguished authorities in physics in the country, a. man of world-wide reputation. He writes to me making the same complaints that were made by the other professor. After explaining that the case of physics differs in some respects from that of chemistry because it is much easier to put the chemical facts into terms of figures, he says—
"Perhaps my own experience is a good illustration. My experiments require the use of very elaborate apparatus made of glass. These are made by my assistant, who is one of the most skilful and experienced glass-blowers in the country. Some of the apparatus takes two or three weeks to make, and in the pre-war days when German glass was available, when once it was made it stood and lasted for months. Now, when it is made of English glass, it often cracks and breaks of itself,"
That, your Lordships may remember, bears out a story which I told during the Committee stage of the Safeguarding of Industries Bill about the breakage of a glass flask which wasted a great amount of labour and also the results of sonic considerable expenditure of money by a different professor from the one whose letter I am reading.
This letter continues—
"It breaks of itself—not through rough usage—and the whole process of manufacture has to be commenced again. At the beginning of the year one piece after another broke as soon as it was made, and it took me some months before I could make an experiment. Had the pm-war German glass been available it would not have taken as many weeks. Then, again, there are instruments which are specialities of certain German firms, who have all the patterns and special tools required for their manufacture, and, though as a matter of theory, these might be made in England the cost in time arid money of making these tools is so great as to make their production here impossible. The difficulties of research have always been great. They arc now made much greater by the difficulties in the way of getting the best possible materials and implements,"
Those are grave allegations made by men whose status and bona fides are-beyond any kind of doubt.
But I should like also to mention the effect, which in some ways may be regarded as even more serious, upon the students who are the pupils of these professors. I know of one chemical laboratory of the highest calibre in which a great many students are taught, and there, during the first year of their studies, they have to spend about 50 per cent. of their own money on materials; that is to say about

257
50 per cent. of the cost of the materials required for their studies is paid by them. In the second year it is something of the same kind, or rather more. And I have been told by a very distinguished professor who has large classes of these students, that to his personal knowledge, during this last year or two, he has noticed that some of these poor students have had to devote to the purchase of materials money which they ought to have expended on food and have, obviously, been going short in consequence. That is a painful fact, as I am quite sure the noble Viscount will agree.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The noble Marquess said "last year": Did he mean for a week or two, or a month or two?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I was not ascribing it only to the effect of the Act of Parliament. It is quite clear, as we all know, that it is a tight fit for everybody. But the argument that I am endeavouring to enforce is that the increased price of all these materials makes it a tighter fit still for these poor people and, therefore, if it were possible to relieve them in any way that is an object lesson of what might be done.
I remember very well that when I raised this question of relieving from the Duties the subjects used for educational and research purposes, the noble Viscount was good enough to take my Amendment quite seriously and not to pooh-pooh it at all, and he said that the Government view was that a more suitable way of meeting the case would be to give some further grants to the Universities and colleges concerned. That, of course, is all very well, but the noble Viscount will realise that to do that would mean a far larger expenditure of money than would be saved by continuing these particular Duties. Taking it roughly, the estimate at a University or college is that an advanced student, in the material he uses and the allowance that has to be made for lighting and heating in respect of him, costs about £100 a year, and if His Majesty's Government were going to make grants on that scale to all Universities and colleges where advanced science is taught, I think they would find they would be losing on the swings a great deal more than they are making on the roundabouts by enforcing these Taxes for the benefit of the Inland Revenue.
258
Now. I have seen various proposals made for the relief of these conditions. One proposal is that a strict list should be prepared of articles which can be made under economic conditions in this country—that is to say, made to pay at a reasonable price—that the Act should be applied to them, and that all others should go free. Another proposal, which I know finds favour with some of the teachers of science, is that the Government should revert to the principles of the Dyestuffs Act, adopt the licensing plan, and admit these foreign products by licence. A great many of us object to the licensing system, as the noble Viscount knows, because we have always considered it fruitful of possible jobbery and favour, and it is not one which I should like to see applied, except in the very last resort. But I cannot help thinking, and I cannot also help thinking that the noble Viscount will agree with me, that it is really a fatuous policy, for the sake of a small amount of revenue, which is largely paid by these under-paid professors and under-fed students, to hamper research which, as I endeavoured to show at the beginning of my observations, is not merely an intellectual satisfaction to those who engage in it but a business upon which the welfare and the prosperity of the country so largely depend.
I have avoided putting down any Motion because it would be absurd to ask the Government to repeal, or even to amend, the Acts, one of which, I think, was carried in June or July and the other towards the end of August. But what I would ask the noble Viscount is this. I would ask him not to treat this as a simple matter of revenue to be dealt with either by what I venture to think is the not very adequate and scientific advice of the Board of Trade or by the necessarily cold views of the Treasury on a matter of revenue. What I would ask him to do would be to invite the President of the Board of Education and the authorities of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to look closely into this question, and to sec whether the grievances which I have endeavoured to set out by one or two instances before your Lordships' House are not well founded, and whether they are not having not only a most discouraging effect, but an actually preventive effect, upon the studies which those Departments especially, and, I have no doubt, His Majesty's Government in general, would desire to see encouraged to the utmost.

259
I, of course, understand that it is impossible in the present condition of the national Revenue to give enormous grants to research or anything else, but where there exists this perpetual succession of small pinpricks inflicted upon those who are engaged in teaching and study, I really think it ought to be possible for the chiefs of those Departments specially interested to persuade His Majesty's Government to remove them.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend in what I think is the wise course he has taken. Those of us who are concerned about this matter are quite aware of the difficulties the Government have in dealing with it. Speaking for myself I do not want to press or worry the Government in the matter, because pressing and worrying are apt to lead to a blank refusal. What I, for my part, am keen about, is to bring to light, as my noble friend has brought to light, the extreme difficulties in which research is placed at the moment because of the system, and to ask the Government to take the steps that are best adapted to get rid of the embarrassments, or at least mitigate them. My noble friend, in the conclusion of his speech, suggested that the matter might well be entrusted to the Research Department and the President of the Board of Education. I would only add that there are two other countries, one Scotland and the other Ireland, which are also deeply interested in this, and someone representing their nterests would have to be added. But with the general principle I should be quite content.
At the present moment the Treasury Committee is, in practice, intimately connected with the Department of the Privy Council which deals with research and dispenses among the Universities a certain amount of assistance. They are well acquainted with the individual circumstances of those Universities, with their laboratories and everything else, and if the Government would adopt my noble friend's suggestion of making an exception or dispensation from the general rigour of the existing system, I think that would be very much better than any special grant. I entirely agree with my noble friend. I think the case is not one for a special grant, which may easily be diverted from its purpose, but that attention should be directed to a licence being given by some
260
such authority as I have been suggesting, for getting the things that are required.
I could have added to the tale told by my noble friend of the hardships under which our professors are suffering at this time. One of the reasons given for including optical glass in the Safeguarding of Industries Bill was that it was very desirable that we should make our own optical glass. The war, it was said, had shown that. I agree, it is very desirable that we should do so, but you have to assume two disadvantages. One is the disadvantage of optical glass not being produced, or being produced very slowly; and the other is the disadvantage of putting off the stream of your own research work to a very material extent. I am aware of the difficulties of making optical glass. It takes time for a system to grow up. The kind of work that has been done for fifty years by men like Zeitz, Goertz and Abbé in Berlin has produced something of a spirit which has grown into the workmen, and that something cannot be rivalled quickly. I am far from sure that passing. a Protection Act is a way to increase the skill that is required. I am of the opinion that free competition is best, if only you have the intelligence here and proper instruction is given.
You have now a very great increase in the technical assistance that is given to the industry for producing optical glass, and I doubt very much whether that industry is likely to gain much by protection. It has not done so up till now. The men of science whom I see— and I see a great many —complain of not getting what they need. It would be much better if our optical glass makers were exposed to a certain amount of competition, at any rate in these limited matters. Other matters I do not want to enter upon. Our people simply are stopped in their work by the difficulties of getting the instruments they need. It is all very well to say, "You can go and order them," but when you get them the grade is not of the finest order, nor are the degrees marked with that accuracy you can get abroad. And there are fifty other disadvantages from which the instruments suffer.
As an illustration I ask your Lordships to take the best quality of gun made, or something which is a much cheaper article, those very remarkable-looking guns which are made by the Birmingham Small Arms Company for a comparatively low price,

261
and which are to be seen at their place of business in Pall Mall. I often look at and admire the admirable gun which is advertised to be sold for twenty-five guineas.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Have you used them?
VISCOUNT HALDANE: No, never. If you look at those guns and then do what I have done, look into the gunmakers' shops in the streets of Berlin, or in other German towns, you will see a great difference. The German workman cannot make what the English workman has made in this matter because the English workman has grown up with a spirit and a tradition. It is the same with the finest kind of watches. They cannot rival on the Continent the work of the British skilled worker. For myself I think that when the British skilled workman has a chance, when he is instructed, and when he has sufficient time behind him to have had a spirit put into him, you cannot beat him, but when you ask him to plunge suddenly into the making of glass it is a very different business.
I remember very well the late Lord Kelvin introducing me one day to a prominent optical glass manufacturer in this country, and the gentleman to whom he introduced me said to me: "I can tell you what max interest you. I found I could not compete with Zeitz, and I got hold of two of his very best workmen. I had to pay for them, but I got them, and I am now doing very welt in competition with Zeitz. But it is only in a small way. What did my two Germans do when they came? Instead of sitting down, as expected, and giving some first principles of glass manufacture, they looked round, talked to the workmen, then took off their coats, put on leather aprons, took my English workmen to the benches, and there showed them how the thing ought to be done according to the tradition and the spirit which they had imbibed in their own workshops." And the optical manufacturer said that they were right. It was a matter of the workmen embodying a kind of spirit and tradition which the British workman in the gun and watch trades has imbibed after years, and of transferring that, spirit and tradition to the work to be done.
The long and the short of it is this. At the present time we are hampered in every way in getting the best instruments for
262
research. The other day I was told by a very competent person who had been working in the laboratories at Cambridge, which are supposed to be the best we have, and in the physical laboratory in a German University, that the German laboratory, although it had not the positive advantages of the laboratory at Cambridge, was enormously superior because it had a much better equipment.
Just consider the period in which we live. The twentieth century is an extraordinary century. There have come up a crop of new ideas which presently will produce revolutionary effects. It was said by the noble Marquess, and I will say it again, that nearly all the great improvements which have taken place in industry are the result of some great discovery in pure science. Ever since Descartes learned to combine geometry with arithmetic and algebra., and laid the foundations of those tables which our engineers and architects use, it has been pointed out that the discovery is one which will live and survive and remain when the steam engine has been thrown into the scrap heap. That is an illustration which could be multiplied over and over again.
Splendid work is being done in our own laboratories. The work at Cambridge on the structure of the atom will probably have a very powerful effect upon chemistry. There is no limit to what imagination has in store for those who choose to speculate on the consequences of the work which is being done. Is it not a monstrous thing that for this delicate work our students should be hampered and kept back? It is riot merely in this particular case, which is a special one. Take the question of books. It is most difficult to get foreign scientific books, and yet there never was a time when the outpouring of these books was greater. I am specially interested in one or two departments of science and I have to get the books. I get them with the utmost difficulty, unless I. write for them or get some friend to obtain them for me; whether strictly within the limits of the law or not I do not know. But the difficulty of getting an adequate supply of knowledge as to what is going on in the laboratories of other people engaged in research, what is being thought out by the great workers abroad, is much increased by what I may call the spirit and tradition which came to us from the "Khaki Election." I want to avoid, however, entering into that subject.

263
What I wish to say in conclusion is that I hope the noble Viscount who is to reply, should, rather than feel himself compelled, perhaps for want of materials, to refuse this straight off, take time to consider it. We are most anxious to get a practical and real grievance redressed, and if by consultation with the Treasury and the heads of the Government, and the Departments concerned, he could find some way to mitigate the hardship which exists at the present time, I am sure he would be doing something material towards preserving the great position which this country has deservedly attained in the past in science and the application of science to industry.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Will the noble Viscount explain his difficulty with regard to books?
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I said it arose rather from the spirit than from anything else. But whatever may be the source of the delay and difficulty, all I can tell the noble Viscount—and I am speaking from practical experience—is that the delay and difficulty of getting books from abroad is very great. It is so great that most people get a friend to bring them over in his bag.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, notwithstanding the fact that the few observations I desire to make on this Question arc to the same effect as those that have been uttered by my two noble friends, it appears to me it would be fairer if the noble Viscount who is to answer for the Government heard what was proposed to be said on this side altogether rather than that complaints should be made against the administration of this particular Act after he has answered the incidents that have already been mentioned.
It is true that this question relates only to a special branch of a special Statute, and it is also true that the special Statute itself is only one branch of a general idea. There is no doubt that it arose originally not because of any general desire that protection should be granted for these particular industries but as some kind of a compromise between the demand on the part of people who were in favour of Tariff Reform and the Free Traders who were anxious that there should be no tariff at all. It is, no doubt, the child of a Coalition Government, and it bears upon
264
its face all the unfavourable features of both of its parents.
Personally I would much rather have had introduced a general scheme of Tariff Reform, which I have opposed throughout the whole of my political life, than this particular and selective measure. And for this reason. It always seemed to me that it was peculiarly unfair to throw upon the whole community the burden of securing protection for a particular branch, and in this particular case the burden is very largely felt by the people whom, above all others, it ought to be our desire to encourage and protect. The burden of this Act, so far as it relates to the matters which have been mentioned, is borne almost entirely by the scientific students. The extent to which they suffer is not properly appreciated.
I wonder whether there is one of your Lordships who knew what it was in his younger days to have to save money in order to buy a microscope. I know something about it, and I know the self-denial, I will not say the positive hardship, but the rigorous and severe self-denial, that a man had to undergo in order to be able to secure sufficient money to buy a microscope with which to pursue his work. You are going to add to that at the present time, notwithstanding all the increase in prices, an extra burden of 33⅓ per cent. You are going to interpose that difficulty between a young man and his appetite for work and make it harder for him to pursue his studies; and there is no class of the community which less deserves to have such special and selective treatment.
Really if one thought for a moment of what would be gained if you could only put into the hands of every one of the young men who al e crowding now into our scientific institutes a microscope for his own use, in order that he might pursue his studies in his own time and follow his own trend of thought, I do not think the benefits we should receive from it are capable of being contemplated. They are absolutely immeasurable, if you could once get the disciplined intelligence of this country turned upon the matters which only the microscope can reveal. It is not merely a matter of industry, but of health and matters connected with our own existence, of which we are still most imperfectly informed. The whole of that can be revealed through microscopic work and through microscopic work alone. And yet microscopes are to be subjected to this

265
burden before any one can use them at all.
Again, you cannot at this moment get proper staining reagents, by which you can stain preparations of microscopical cultures of diseases, for examinations taken in the course of biological preparations. You cannot get them. It is true that you can get something which is called a substitute, but I know quite well, because I happen to have close relations who have been doing this work all their lives, that it cannot he done. You cannot get the proper staining reagents now, except with great difficulty, great delay, and at great expense. It does appear to me to be something little short of intolerable that we should have put the heavy hand of this scheme of protection upon the very branch of knowledge and education which deserves every possible kind of encouragement.
It is not merely that, though that is surely a very big thing. The one thing above all others that we want to-day is to keep our expenses as low as we possibly can. The county councils are receiving, as everybody knows, instructions to try to bring their educational costs down to the lowest figure. Let us see what the county councils have to do when they take over the secondary schools. I have here a list of some chemical apparatus, dated before the war. The prices are those of 1908, so that they arc not immediately before the war, and the present prices—
VISCOUNT PEEL: The present prices being what—those of this month?
LORD BUCKMASTER: Of 1921.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I only wondered whether they come before or after the Safeguarding.of Industries Act.
LORD BUCKMASTER: If they are before the Act, it will make the thing so much the worse, because there will be 33⅓ per cent. added.
VISCOUNT PEEL: It does not prove that the price now has gone up by 331 per cent. However, I must defer the discussion of that for the moment.
LORD BUCKMASTER: You must remember—it has never been denied, and cannot be denied—that the object of this Duty is to raise prices. It was so stated by the hon. member who introduced this measure in the House of Commons. That is
266
the purpose of the Act, and it is the only reason why the Duty was put on. Consequently, if these figures are taken before the price was raised, your Lordships will be able to do the pleasureable arithmetical exercise of adding 33⅓ per cent.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: They are the latest prices.
LORD BUCKMASTER: The noble Marquess who gave them to me, says "They are the latest," so perhaps the 33⅓ per cent. is included; if not, it has to be added. Glass basins were 2s. 6d. per dozen before the war; they are now:10 s. 6d. per dozen, which is more than four times the former price. Funnels, winch, as everybody knows, are wanted in quantities, were 2s. 6d. a dozen, and are now 17 s. 10 d. per dozen. Flasks were Os. 9d. a dozen, and are now 34 s. per dozen. Flasks, in beaker form and spouted, were 2s. 3d. per dozen for the smaller size, and they arc now 12 s. 9d. per dozen. Test tubes were 2s. 3d. per gross, and are now 10 s. per gross; while a larger size were 3s. 2d. per gross, and are now 14 s. per gross.
Making every allowance that you desire for the added cost of materials and of labour, those figures are out of proportion. There is something far bigger than that. Those are the prices in a protected industry, as I submit to your Lordships, an industry that is not suffering from the proper stimulus of free competition, and is not having prices brought down by what ought to be the real test, that of an open market. The county councils arc, at one and the same time, implored and entreated to see that the expenses of education arc cut down as low as possible, and they arc forbidden and denied this apparatus, which they need in quantities, at anything but an artificially increased price. Surely it is not reasonable, it is not wise, to pursue a policy of this kind.
For what purpose is it pursued? Although the purpose is, as I said, to increase the price, the ultimate purpose behind it—at least, so it has been said by the Prime Minister so many times that I think he really believes it——the real purpose is to prepare for the next war. That is the object of this measure. I would entreat the Government, if they are going to kill the educational enterprise of this country for the purpose of preparing for the next war, to do something else at the same time, to prepare for the next bankruptcy; for

267
the bankruptcy will come with steps far more certain, with a progress far more rapid, than even the possibility of such another conflict as that through which we have recently had the good fortune to pass.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lords who have spoken for desiring to put their full case to your Lordships' House before I had the opportunity of a reply. They have developed their case on rather wider lines than I expected from the Notice, and I am sorry that I have not been able to arm myself with these lists of comparative prices, so that I could deal more fully with the points that have been placed before your Lordships' House. I think it is a tribute to the breadth of mind of the noble Marquess opposite that very soon after he, as chairman, has produced a most valuable and interesting Report on the place of the classics in education and, as I think, advocated the extension of that teaching, he should take up the cudgels as well on behalf of scientific teaching and scientific research.
I should like to remind him, as I think I stated on the Safeguarding of Industries Bill, that the point which he then raised had been subject to very close consideration by the Government, that it had not passed at all unawares, and that it was one of the points, in dealing with the placing of the 33⅓ per cent. Duty on these particular articles, which had been very closely and very constantly considered. The noble Marquess reminded us that this 33⅓ per cent. arises under the first portion of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and he indicated that these particular articles might be subject to another 33⅓ per cent. under the second portion of the Act, whether as (lumped goods or in relation to the collapsed exchanges, which would make the full duty 66⅔ per cent. In any case that, to him, deplorable situation has not arisen. A few days ago I made inquiries of the Board of Trade, not in connection with this matter but with another matter, as to whether that particular portion of the Act concerning the dumping and collapsed exchanges clauses had been put into action. I found that it had not, but Committees are being set up, and in those circumstances I do not think the noble Marquess will argue that the prices of these articles are affected by that particular provision of the Act.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I understand that they may be.
VISCOUNT PEEL: In the future, under the Act, they obviously may be. I am only pointing this out for the information of the House. I think it is an interesting point, and it bears upon the position at any rate to this extent. I was rather surprised to hear of these complaints, the numerous and general complaints alluded to by all three of the noble Lords who have spoken, because this first portion of the Act has been in operation for such a very short time, and the lists, as the noble Marquess said, were published only on September 15. Now I think that I should be borne out by the noble Lord on the back bench when I say that if it is pretty well known that a particular Duty is coining into operation at a specific time, generally it may be some time before that particular Duty is in operation, because of course all the people who are wanting supplies attempt to bring into the country as much as they can, and I am honestly surprised, if any of those effects happen which the noble Lord has referred to, that they should have happened so quickly. One would think that the supplies brought in would keep down the price for some time to come, but, naturally, I must accept what noble Lords have said on the subject.
LORD BUCKMASTER: The noble Viscount overlooks for the moment that there has been a Statute in operation for some time which excludes German goods, with a payment of a very large percentage.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Is the noble and learned Lord alluding to the German Reparation Act?
LORD BUCKMASTER: Yes, I am.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I thought I dealt with that several times, and I thought it was admitted that the German Reparation Act, which was only a method of collecting part of the reparations, could not have any effect upon the price of goods, because the amount by which the German exporter goes short is returned to him by the German Government. That is the effect. I happen to have been inquiring the other day as to how that Act was working, and I was told that it was working perfectly, and that the German Government recognised this method of paying, and so

269
the German exporter was getting his money —I admit in two halves, or one-third from one source and two-thirds from another—and the amount which is deducted from the amount paid by the British importer is not a Duty, because the German exporter gets it from the German Government, and therefore it makes no difference as regards price.
I was in a little difficulty also with regard to the point made by the noble and learned Viscount at first, because I understood him to suggest that there was some duty to be placed on books, but I believe that; that is not so. In fact, I was in a good deal of anxiety at first when I heard the noble and learned Viscount, because although he put the matter in a very delicate way, I gathered that he had been engaged in the nefarious trade of smuggling, and I was wondering whether I ought not to give information to the Customs. But I was very much relieved when he mentioned books, because, although I have not scanned this gigantic list published by the Board of Trade, I do not think books are contained in it.
VISCOUNTNT HALDANE: I do not think they are, but the general system gives rise to immense difficulty in getting books as well as other things. One reacts on the other.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I do not understand the difficulty about books, but if the noble Viscount has been bringing in books I hope he has not also included microscopes and such things, which would render hip liable to the law. Of course, the noble and learned Viscount was very fair in his argument, as was also the noble Marquess, in expressing what was the difficulty of the Government in this particular matter, but the noble and learned Lord, in his speech, took a very wide line indeed. He was not only against the Bill, or method of the Bill, but against the whole principle of the Bill. He seemed to think that the whole of the lessons we had learned during the war should be thrown away. Of course, if we are to assume that there is never to be any war again in the world, I agree that it is possible there is no need for that particular portion of the Act, but I might remind your Lordships of what is the fundamental purpose of the Act, and may I say that I think it was a little bit misunderstood by the noble Marquess, because he alluded to the "cold Treasury "—
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Surely it is the business of the Treasury to be absolutely frigid in its collection of revenue? I might add that I think it would be better if it were sometimes more so.
VISCOUNT PEEL: It was the felicity of the phrase of the noble Marquess which made me try to imitate him. Of course, the object of the first portion of the Act is not revenue, but to secure the manufacture of goods in this country, and therefore I think the amount of money is rather negligible. The whole object of the Act was to promote the development in this country of the manufacture of products of great national importance, upon which we, before the war, were very largely dependent upon foreign countries, particularly those which proved to be our greatest enemies, with the result that in the earlier days of the war we were placed in a position of the very greatest disadvantage. I do not think I need dwell very much upon this point, because Lord Crewe will remember, as well as anybody, the difficulties we were placed in during the war with regard to scientific instruments, scientific glassware and porcelain, which were largely used not merely by educational institutions but by all kinds of industrial undertakings, and I think it is not very fair to suggest that if there was a rise in price it would fall upon a number of poor persons engaged in scientific education.
LORD BUCKMASTER: Of course, they have only to bear the burden of the things they buy.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The whole burden does not fall upon them.
LORD BUCKMASTER: Of course it does not, but upon anybody who wants these articles.
VISCOUNT PEEL: All sorts of methods had to be adopted to develop -the production of these necessary commodities, and we were gravely handicapped in so doing, not only by the absence of works and plant but by the entire absence of trained work-people. A great deal of valuable work on the scientific problem is being done by such research associations as the Scientific Instrument Research Association and the Glass Research Association, with the aid of the Department of Scientific and

271
Industrial Research, and also by many individuals and groups o manufacturers. But there is really no inducement for the getting together of these staffs of skilled workpeople, to be trained and given employment, unless manufacturers can be assured of a moderate degree of security for a period, and not find their markets destroyed by a large influx of foreign products, facilitated to a large extent by a greatly depreciated exchange. Of course, the nature of these products is such that a very substantial proportion is consumed by scientific and educational, as well as industrial, institutions, but I should like to point out that if the requirements of these educational workers were to be exempted, the extent to which these newly-started or struggling industries would be assisted by the Act would be very limited.
There were two suggestions put forward —one, I think, by Lord Crewe, both on this occasion and on another Question—namely, the licensing system. That has been very carefully gone into by the Government, but they felt that in this particular case it was open to many of those objections to winch the noble Marquess alluded, and that, even if it were put into operation, it would cause a great deal of delay, and might really cause more difficulty than it was designed to prevent.
The other suggestion was that all educational institutions should be allowed to import commodities of the kind in question which they required, free of Duty, and the examples of South Africa and of Canada were given. I should like to mention, however, that in those cases I believe these Duties were mainly instituted for Revenue purposes, and therefore the question of security., the manufacturer was not so very important. It was only a question of losing so much revenue, and therefore it did not very much matter, in that case, how large the exemptions were; whereas, in the United Kingdom, I understand that the magnitude of the exemptions would be so great that the matter would be vital, and that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to draw the line between various grades of institutions.
Again, as regards the question of cost, it ought to be pointed out that the cost of these instruments and other products for laboratory use is only quite a small part of the cost of running and working these laboratories. The noble and learned Lord
272
has drawn a very harrowing picture of the difficulties put in the way of research and education, and of the difficulties to which these very poor workers are put by possibly having to pay more for their goods. On the other hand, supposing the Act is successful and that in four or five years these industries do acquire such solidity that they may be able to stand by themselves, a very much larger field would he provided in that case for the employment of chemical and scientific workers. And that has always been a matter of complaint in this country. One remembers very well the complaint of all those engaged in scientific research that there were so very few opportunities, either in industry or elsewhere, for them to obtain positions, and it certainly would be an immense advantage if, owing to the operation of an Act of this kind, a number of these places were provided for them. That, at any rate, might be to some extent a set-off against their other difficulties. Again, if the scientific men would help the manufacturers by constructive advice and criticism these developments would be very much expedited.
One interesting point was stated by the noble Marquess. He said that in certain cases inquiries had been made and that some of these particular articles might, at any rate in time, be produced in this country; some might be produced at a cheaper price, but some had no likelihood of being made at all. I suppose he alluded to the fact that the manufacturers concerned would suppose that the demand was so small in this country that it would not be worth while to manufacture them. It occurred to me that it might be possible that sonic of these articles so scheduled might be removed from the schedule if it were shown that there was no likelihood of their being produced in this country; because the whole object. of this Act is that they should be produced here.
I cannot, therefore, from the Board of Trade point of view, give very much consolation to the noble Marquess, because it is their view—and I am only answering now for that particular Department—that the exemptions claimed by the noble Marquess would very largely defeat the whole object of this Act, which is, of course, to build up these industries in this country, and not to be dependent on other countries. If the Act were repealed we should go back to the state in which we were before the war, and be entirely dependent upon the

273
manufacturers in Germany and other places who are so well equipped for supplying our wants.
As to the appeal of the noble Marquess and the noble and learned Viscount to the Minister of Education, I shall be very glad to put before him the complaints of price, and so on, which have been brought forward by those noble Lords, and to ask him to see to what extent these disabilities are laid upon research and education in Universities and elsewhere. After all, it must be a matter for him, but I will certainly take care that the whole subject is placed fully and adequately before the Minister of Education. At the present time that is all I can undertake to do.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Viscount for the concluding passage of his speech, in which he said he would bring the appeal which I have made to the notice of the Minister of Education, who would, no doubt, in a matter of this kind, desire also to consult the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. I might remind the noble Viscount that when he spoke of the repeal of the Act I made no suggestion of that repeal, and I think I confined my observations entirely to the question of the hardships inflicted on teachers and students.
VISCOUNT PEEL: It was the more drastic and fulminating observations of the noble and learned Lord to which I was then replying.

SUKKVR BARRAGE SCHEME.
LORD SYDENHAM LORD SYDENHAM had given Notice to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether it has been decided that the barrage and the new canals in Sind are to be commenced simultaneously; and whether the Government of India and the Secretary of State have satisfied themselves that—
1. It is safe to disregard the opinion of the Committee of 1913 that these great works should be completed, not commenced, at the same time.
2. It is practicable in a sparsely populated country like Sind to complete works costing about 18 crores of rupees within a period of ten or twelve years.
3. The cost of these works and of their maintenance has not been greatly under-estimated, hawing regard to the immense rise of wages, etc., in India.
4. Grave unrest may not be caused in such a district as Larkana, where fine rice crops are now grown, by a rise of 60 per cent. in the rate of assessment.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, any great irrigation work in India involves questions, technical, economic, social, and political, which could not profitably be discussed in this Rouse. I therefore ask your Lordships' pardon if I detain you for three minutes for special reasons in regard to this great Sukkur project. I was familiar with the project in 1912, which I studied on the spot, not only as a Governor but as an engineer. I have not studied the new project which is now ender consideration, but I know enough about it to understand the great misgivings with which some very able engineers who know Sind feel about it. The expert Committee of 1913 was forced to the conclusion (these are their words) that "a barrage at Sukkur was necessary," which is perfectly sound; but then they laid down that "If the complete scheme is ever undertaken both canals and barrage should be simultaneously completed."
The reason is obvious. An enormously costly work like the barrage should be built as completely as possible, and should be finished at the moment when it becomes immediately reproductive. If these conditions are not fulfilled then the interest charges mount quickly to very serious proportions. The population of Sind has fallen off since 1911, and it is now under 3,500,000. I doubt very much whether labour can be found in sufficient amount to carry out these huge works in the time which is anticipated in the project. The present rice rate, including the second crop, is 5 rupees, but under the scheme there will be an increase of this rate for ten years to 8 rupees, and, after that, 9 rupees for another period of ten years. This great increase must be regarded as a terrible grievance by the cultivators, especially as they would not get a larger water supply than they have at present.
As regards the estimates, the project of 1912 was to cost 8 crores only. The present project is to cost 18 crores, and is

275
to be completed in eleven years, and the Government of India, in their Dispatch dealing with these estimates and with the increase in rates, stated that they had provided for an increase of 20 per cent. above pre-war standard. And, as regards the head works generally, the Government of India said—
"We are, however, satisfied it is not necessary to provile for so large an increase as 30 per cent."
I entirely distrust that estimate. The ruling rate in Bombay before the war was 4 annas; it is now 10 or 12 annas; in Sind it may be somewhat less, but I am convinced that these estimates require most careful revision.
I raise these Questions now because this great project, if it is economically carried out, will be of enormous benefit to Sind, and also to India as a whole, but if any mistake has been made, or if as I think, there has been some slight misunderstanding somewhere, the effect will be disastrous in the present rather critical financial position of India. All that I ask of the noble Earl is that these four Questions which I have put down might be looked into again, to see if there is not something in the remarks I have made.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF LYTTON): My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend that a Question of this sort, involving highly technical considerations, cannot be discussed with any advantage in your Lordships' House. My noble friend as an engineer may be able to enter into- these details, but if he were to do so I certainly should not be able to follow him, and I have no intention of making anything like a detailed defence of this particular scheme. I understand that he is really concerned, and, I think, quite rightly concerned, to know that all the facts of the problem have been before the Government of India and have received full consideration before the decision to create this barrage was arrived at. On this point I think I can reassure my noble friend absolutely.
Not only has the whole matter—including the site of the barrage, also the relative dates of commencing the barrage and the canals, and all these matters—been exhaustively considered since 1913, but even in the last few months the arguments and proposals of Dr. Summers (who, as my noble friend knows, is one of the chief
276
opponents of this scheme) have been considered by the Government of India and their technical advisers, with the result that the scheme proposed by Dr. Summers was unanimously rejected by the present advisers of the Government of India, and the scheme which it is proposed to carry out-has been unanimously reaffirmed and supported.
I have nothing really to tell my noble friend beyond what I was able to say in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Lamington, in August—namely, that so far as the technical side is concerned that matter is now decided, and the Secretary of State is not disposed either to reopen it or to seek any further advice. He could only be justified in doing so if lie were not satisfied with the competence of the engineers who advise the Government of India, or if there was any difference of opinion between them. Since he is satisfied that they are men of the highest engineering reputation and with the latest experience of irrigation works, and since they are unanimous in their opinion, having up till quite recently considered all the arguments that have been made, he is not prepared to reopen the matter.
On the purely engineering side of it, therefore, all these questions have been fully considered and a final decision has been arrived at. But, as I told Lord Lamington in August, there are aspects of the case which arc financial rather than technical and some which are partly financial and partly technical, and it is really mainly those particular aspects to which my noble friend to-day has referred. I agree with him that there are reasons for reconsidering the estimates upon which the whole scheme was based, and there are several financial aspects of the scheme upon which the Secretary of State was not satisfied which he has referred back to the Government of India and which are under the consideration of the Government of India at the present time. Therefore, so far as the financial aspect of the scheme is concerned, that has not yet received final approval, nor has the date for the commencement of the carrying out of the scheme been decided.
The Government of Bombay, as the noble Lord, I am sure, will readily understand, believing this to be a scheme fraught with the greatest possible benefits to Sind, are anxious to begin at the earliest possible moment. The only reason for delay is the

277
necessity which he has pointed out of giving the most minute scrutiny not only to the technical aspects of the case, which have been decided, but to the financial provisions. Though I am not prepared to enter into any detailed discussion of this scheme in your Lordships' House, I think that persons who, like Lord Sydenham and Lord Lamington, are deeply interested in the proposals, are entitled to have a full explanation of what the case for the Government of India is, and though the matter is not of general interest, it is of great interest to the few who are acquainted with the project.
I propose, therefore, to place in the library of your Lordships' House the Despatch of the Government of India of December, 1920, and the Secretary of State's Despatch. of June 16, 1921, which will be available for any of your Lordships who care to refer to them. The Despatch of the Government of India will give the whole of the case for the erection of the barrage, and the Despatch of the Secretary of State will contain his reasons for agreeing with the Government of India that, in its technical aspects at any rate, the scheme should be approved. Those two documents will also be placed in the library of the House of Commons, mid I hope that any members of your Lordships' House who are sufficiently interested in the scheme as to require further information will find there all the information which they could desire.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his answer to my Questions. I gather from it that practically all the four points which I have raised, being really of a financial character, will be looked into again. I am very much obliged to him for promising to lay information upon the library table.

TURKISH WAR CRIMINALS
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I desire to put the Question standing in my name—namely, to ask if all the Turkish war criminals formerly in British custody have been released, and if so, on what conditions; whether specific charges were formulated against all or any of these men; and whether any of them were brought to trial. It will be remembered that upon the conclusion of the war there was a great outcry from many quarters, which took the form of a demand, that the various
278
war criminals should be put upon their trial, and it will be in the recollection of the House that the first criminal to be dealt with was the German Emperor himself.
As regards Germany, as we all know, the question was decided in this sense—that certain individual cases were selected and were tried in the German Courts. It is the view of many people in this country, and the view of a large section of the Press, that the sentences which followed were grossly inadequate to the crimes committed. But it is not the opinion of the best instructed persons. I do not include myself amongst the experts, but I have certainly gathered that in legal circles it is not considered that the result of these trials was, on the whole, unsatisfactory, and if the Lord Chancellor were present, I believe he would corroborate my statement. That is what was done in regard to Germany.
With regard to the war criminals of Turkey, a totally different course was pursued, and a very sensible one. We insisted upon the delivery of all the Turkish war criminals into our hands. These criminals consisted chiefly of men who were guilty of most abominable treatment towards the British captives in their power. I have often thought that the British public were so much occupied in denouncing the German Government for the ill-treatment of British prisoners in Germany that they overlooked the even worse conditions which prevailed in Turkey. From personal experience of both Governments I have no hesitation in asserting that, upon the whole, the treatment of our prisoners in Turkey was certainly worse than it was in Germany, and I can prove that by a very simple illustration. The number of prisoners captured by the Germans in the course of the war was, roughly speaking, 168,000, and of these 8 per cent. either died or have been unaccounted for. The Turks, on their side, captured between 15,000 and 16,000 of British and Indian prisoners, and of this number no less than 38 per cent. died or have completely disappeared. Those are to my mind perfectly appalling figures, and reveal the conditions under which our unfortunate prisoners lived.
The German Government was infinitely a more satisfactory Government to deal with than the Turkish Government where

279
this particular question was concerned. At all events, they were amenable to argument, they were able to give facts, and were properly acquainted with the subject. During the course of the war I, in company with other British delegates, twice met them in conference, and the result of one of our meetings, the one in 1917, resulted in enormous benefits to all the prisoners concerned. I am ready to admit that upon the whole the German bargain was honestly kept. I took part in similar negotiations with the representatives of the Turkish Government, also during the war, and we carried on protracted negotiations in Switzerland which produced very little result.
I cannot forbear mentioning one circumstance which protracted the discussions. When we arrived the Turkish delegates, who, I am perfectly certain, were blatant atheists, asserted that they wished to worship in the mosque on Friday, and therefore it was impossible to work on that day. The Swiss in charge of the negotiations on their side said that they were not in the habit of working on Saturday, and we naturally represented that it would be unreasonable that we should work on Sunday. Therefore, three days were cut off the working week, and I always think that a certain amount of credit was due to us that the negotiations, in such circumstances, ever came to an end at all, more especially as the Turkish delegates were drawing high subsistence allowances. Anyhow, the result of those prolonged and protracted discussions was practically nil. We arrived at elaborate conditions upon paper, but no steps were really taken to ameliorate the condition of our prisoners, and the impression left upon my mind was that the Turks whom I met were not only grossly ignorant of all the details of the business, but that they were perfectly callous. I afterwards realised, and suspected at the time, that they were absolutely devoid of any kind of good faith.
As I said at the beginning of my remarks, after the Armistice the Turkish war criminals were handed over into our possession. I do not know the exact number of these criminals, but I gather from what fell from the noble Marquess yesterday that they numbered sixty-four. They were men who were chiefly accused of crimes towards prisoners. The charges against these men included murder, the manslaughter of hundreds, if not thousands, of British prisoners by neglect, merciless
280
flogging, gross cruelty of various kinds, unnatural offences committed upon British prisoners, and wholesale theft of property. You could not have a much more serious catalogue of crime brought up than that. What I have risen for to-day is to ask—and I should like, if possible, to insist upon an explanation—why these men, when they were in our possession, were not tried immediately after the Armistice. There was nothing whatever to prevent these men being tried nearly three years ago. They had committed offences against International Law, and if it was in our power to arrest them I presume it was equally in our power to try them. What I wish to emphasise is that there was any amount of evidence available against these men. That fact is not generally realised, because it is a common assumption that the British Government took little or no interest in prisoners.
The fact is not generally realised that during the whole course of the war the greatest pains were taken by the Government to find out what the experience of the prisoners had been, and every prisoner who came to this country during the war—and they numbered thousands—was subjected to an elaborate examination as to his experience and as to his treatment, and when the Armistice was proclaimed every single man had an opportunity afforded him of making any complaints that he chose to formulate against the Government whose prisoner he had been. In this connection I should like to pay a belated tribute to the invaluable services rendered by the Committee presided over by the present Lord Justice Younger, which conducted these investigations. I cannot speak too highly—and I have considerable experience of their work—of the way in which the various members of that Committee, who were unpaid, discharged their duties, and I can only think with gratitude of the amount of time which they spent, and the enormous trouble which they took to elicit the facts. The evidence was all at the disposal of the Government. One of the Committee rooms upstairs was, without exaggeration, half-filled with the evidence collected by this Committee. What was there to prevent this evidence being immediately used and supplied to the military authorities in Malta, who were in a position to try these men All the labour and all the expense incurred in preparing this elaborate evidence have been absolutely and completely wasted.

281
I would ask your Lordships carefully to mark what has resulted in consequence of the opportunity of trying these men not having been taken advantage of. Long after these criminals were in our possession in Malta we became involved in hostilities with the Turks, and the Turks succeeded in capturing a few Englishmen, apparently about twenty or thirty. Immediately the position changed. The Turks knew very well that they had something to bargain with, and what actually happened is obvious to everyone. According to the statement which was made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs yesterday, in reply to a Question addressed to him, we were guileless enough to hand over forty of these men to the Turks, and for those forty criminals we, for a long time, received nobody at all in exchange. Eventually we appear, according to the statement made yesterday, to have received ten men, amongst whom was not the particular man we wanted. Since then the position has become much worse, because it has now transpired that all these criminals have been released, and all we have to show for them are the twenty odd prisoners who were in the hands of the Turks.
I ask your Lordships to mark what this so-called exchange means. Those men who were in our possession were the worst type of criminal, as I have explained in enumerating their offences. The British who leave been obtained in exchange, were ordinary prisoners of war who had committed no crime at all. They had been taken prisoner merely through the treachery of the Turks, or through their own misfortune, and in order to recover these perfectly innocent men we have had to give up these criminals who are men of the very worst type. I think it must be admitted that this is a most unsatisfactory business.
When I think of the criticisms to which I and my colleagues were subjected during the war with regard to our management of prisoners' questions, I wonder what would have been said of us if it had transpired that we had allowed between fifty and a hundred criminals to slip from our grasp. I shudder to think what would have been my individual fate had I been guilty of a folly of this kind. At all events, I can take credit for this, whatever crimes I may have committed, that I was never silly enough to be deluded into giving up a Turkish prisoner or trusting the Turkish Government in any way, although considerable
282
pressure was put upon me to do so with regard to a particular individual.
It is perfectly plain that someone has blundered in the most inexcusable manner and I am rather curious to know who the culprit will prove to be. This is a matter which should not be allowed to rest where it is. There has been the grossest mismanagement on the part of someone or other, and it should be brought home to him. I do not wish to appear only in the character of a destructive critic and I will, therefore, make a suggestion to the Government. I presume that before very long we shall come to some arrangement with Kemal Pasha, and I presume that we shall be entitled to make certain conditions. I would suggest—and I do not think this is unreasonable—that when we do come to terms with him we should insist upon the worst of these criminals being handed back, or else take effective steps to secure their trial and punishment at the hands of their own Government.
I desire to add one word on a somewhat different point. I observe in the Press violent criticisms of the Government for alleged neglect of these prisoners in Turkish hands. I am extremely familiar with this type of criticism, and I know that in most cases it is totally unfounded. I am firmly convinced that no Government ever showed so much solicitude for its prisoners as did the British Government, and that will be admitted by any one who has had any experience of prisoner questions. But it appears, from statements made in responsible quarters, that the case of these few British prisoners in Turkish hands has not, on the whole, been happily dealt with. I am informed that they leave suffered great hardship. I am not satisfied in my own mind as to whether the allegation is correct or not, but I should like, as a matter of curiosity, not personal curiosity but on behalf of the public generally, to ask what Department of the Government has been responsible for the interests of prisoners during the last two years?
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I presume the Department of State responsible is the Department which has to reply to these Questions in Parliament, and as the reply to the noble Lord has been prepared by the Foreign Office I take it that that Department is the one which, in point of fact, is responsible. I fancy that while Lord Newton was concerned with the

283
interests of British prisoners he acted through the Foreign Office.
LORD NEWTON: No; we were a separate Department.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: But there must have been a Department which answered in Parliament, and that Department was the one responsible. In the case of a Department, with a Minister in charge, which looked after any subordinate branch or Commission formed during the war the Department was, from the constitutional point of view, responsible, and that was the case during the time the Prisoners of War Department existed.
The Leader of the House in reply to a private notice question yesterday by the noble Lord gave a full account of the circumstances in which, in order to extricate our own prisoners in Anatolia before the rigours of winter set in, it was decided by His Majesty's Government to release the Turkish prisoners awaiting trial in Malta. It was not possible to attach any conditions to their release. No specific charges had been formulated against them, as the trial of war criminals would not in fact have been legal until the Treaty of Sevres entered into force, although evidence was in the hands of His Majesty's Government, both as regards their implication in the massacres of Christians and as regards cruelty to British prisoners. None of the Turks therefore were brought to trial. The decision arrived at was admittedly made in the interests not of Justice but of expediency and of humanity to our own fellow countrymen, and if His Majesty's Government can reap no credit from it the Angora Government can derive nothing but dishonour.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I cannot help remarking that the answer just given by the noble Earl leaves the question in a still more unsatisfactory position. These criminals were demanded by us for the purpose of trial. Now we are told that it was never contemplated to try them until the Treaty of Sevres was signed. Why should we stand on these questions of legal pedantry with the Turks at all? The Turks are a semi-civilised Power and it is perfectly unnecessary to make any stipulation of the kind. I am under the impression that if a man has committed an offence against International Law you are at liberty
284
to try him during the war, and it seems to me to stand to reason that. if you have power to arrest a man, you have power, equally, to try him. This is an ingenious excuse to conceal the fact that a gross blunder has been committed by some one or other.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I think many of your Lordships will consider the reply made by the noble Earl to the complaints of Lord Newton a purely technical one and not altogether satisfactory.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Why technical?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Because it appears to hinge on the purely technical point that it is not within the competence of the Government to place these criminals on their trial before a certain date—namely, that of the signing, or possibly the ratification, of the Treaty of Sevres.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: A fundamental point.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: A fundamental point, if the noble Earl prefers that epithet. But one would have supposed that if it was common knowledge that these people had been guilty, and were perfectly certain to be proved guilty, of the most atrocious crimes, more atrocious than any that were alleged against any Germans, although those were bad enough. His Majesty's Government would have thought twice before releasing them en bloc, particularly as the terms of exchange seem to have been so very unfavourable to this country and so greatly in favour of the Turks. I am inclined to agree with the noble Lord opposite that this question can hardly be allowed to remain where it is. I quite understand that His Majesty's Government were placed in a difficult position owing to the power possessed by a semi-barbarous Government to blackmail us by inflicting torture of all kinds, or of any kind, upon our prisoners, whereas, of course, we could not retaliate in the same way. I fully apprehend that; but it certainly does seem to me that something more might have been done, and I should like to press once more the question that was asked by the noble Lord opposite—With whom does the real responsibility rest for action of this kind?
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, who, as we all know, has taken so much interest in the question of prisoners, some time ago asked me a question of a somewhat legal character to which I should like to give an answer if I can. The difficulty regarding war criminals is, as a rule, of course, to get them into your possession at all. That was the difficulty as regards the Kaiser, lie was not handed over by the Dutch Government, I think rightly, because they said that in handing him over they would interfere with what they regarded as the international Law of Asylum. But these are quite different cases. These are oases where criminals did not need handing over to us, but were in our possession. Now if anything like the crimes which Lord Newton has referred to have been committed— I am not myself cognisant of the details—undoubtedly they were criminals in our possession who could be tried, and ought to be tried, for the crimes which Lord Newton has alleged against them, and that entirely independent of whether the Treaty of Sevres has been ratified or not. That question is entirely outside the point when you have criminals in your power who, according to your view, have committed crimes of the character which Lord Newton has suggested. Accordingly, the question seems to me to arise, why were they not tried?
LORD NEWTON: Exactly.
LORD PARMOOR: They were in our power, I understand, for nearly three years. Why were they not tried? I should have thought that, according to every legal principle, they ought to have been tied, arid were liable to be tried.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I can only say that thou Foreign Office is advised in a different legal sense from that which the noble and learned Lord indicates. I evidently did not make it clear. These men, criminals without definitely formulated charges against them by witnesses in our possession, have been released, unconditionally released, and this has been done on the responsibility of the Government—for which Lord Curzon, as Minister in charge, takes personal, as opposed to collective, responsibility—in order to save the lives of a handful, but none the less a precious remnant of British prisoners who have been done to death by this Angora Government.
LORD NEWTON: I must apologise for speaking again, but that is not the point. What we want to know is why these men were not tried when they were in our power. The question of their exchange against British prisoners is a totally different one. What we say is that they ought to have been tried long ago, and there is no reason why they should not have been brought to justice while they were in our possession.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: If my noble friend will read the answer to-morrow, lie will see the legal view of the Foreign Office.

PALESTINE.
LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether in view of the fact that the Turkish Treaty has not been signed, and that the Mandate under which Palestine is to be governed by Great Britain has not been approved by the League of Nations or accepted by Parliament, Palestine is in the position of occupied enemy territory; and whether any powers exist to give legal sanction to the alienation of Church property in care of the citizens of foreign countries.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, when the question was raised by my noble friend, Lord Sydenham, the other day as regards the alienation of certain properties belonging to the Greek Church Patriarchate in Jerusalem, I ventured to ask a supplemental question on what was perhaps a legal and technical topic. The noble Duke who is, I think, going to answer to-day, on the last occasion, with great courtesy, not really having had notice of the Question, gave a partial answer which contained some of the information which I desired. His answer was, if I am right—and I have looked into the OFFICIAL REPORT again—that the alienation of this property was being carried out under what he called an Ordinance of the High Commissioner, endorsed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
That only puts the matter one step further back. What authority was there to issue this Ordinance at all? If the noble Duke will look at the terms of my Question he will see what I suggest is a reason why no such Ordinance could possibly have legal validity. He will see it pointed out in that Question that, in the first place, there has been no ratification

287
of the Turkish Treaty, and secondly, that the Mandate under which Palestine is to be governed by Great Britain has not been approved by the League of Nations or accepted by Parliament. That is the fact, and therefore Palestine, at the present time, is in the position of occupied enemy territory. Now, if Palestine is in the position of occupied enemy territory, one of the first principles of International Law that we have always tried to enforce is that the occupiers are not to interfere with the existing Territorial Law, except so far as may be necessary for military purposes. What is the existing Territorial Law? The existing Territorial Law is that this property is inalienable. There is no question about it under the Moslem Law, which would be the existing Territorial Law. This property could not he alienated; at the outside, it could he exchanged under certain conditions, or leased for a period of three years.
What I want the noble Duke to tell me, if he can, is on what authority has this Ordinance been made, an Ordinance which appears to me to be entirely inconsistent with the principles of International Law. I may say that, looking into this matter again to-day in a work of great authority, I found the statement that the right to alienate property by a mere occupying force had not been brought into operation since the time of William the Conqueror, in 1066. That is going back some way for a precedent. But, as a matter of fact, under the Hague Conference and by every other principle of International Law that has been acknowledged in modern times, a property of this kind cannot be touched. While you are in occupation of enemy territory, you cannot act except under the Territorial Law of the country; you have to wait for new conditions to come to the front under which a new law can be brought into operation. I do not want to detain your Lordships at any length. I merely wish to ask the noble Duke to inform me what is the authority for this Ordinance upon which he relies, and how it is applicable when the Treaty has not been ratified and the Mandate has not so far been approved? I beg to ask the Question on the Paper.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I agree with what the noble and learned Lord has just said, and I think, as I stated last week, that this great sale of the property of the Orthodox Greek Church was illegal
288
under the terms of International Law. The so-called military administration of Palestine, which was really a civil administration under an experienced military officer, carefully avoided interfering with the operation of Turkish Law while it was in power. It merely prohibited sales of land as a temporary measure of protection to the impoverished people of Palestine against possible speculation in landed estate.
The status of Palestine in International Law remains unchanged since the military administration was removed under pressure from the Zionist Party. I have a curious piece of evidence which shows that one Department of State, at least, recognises the correct status of Palestine. There is a Palestinian married to an English woman who has since January, 1914, been trying to obtain naturalisation in this country and has failed. In June of last year he was directed by the. Home Office, in a letter which I have, to describe himself as an Ottoman, with "Palestinian" in brackets, and that shows clearly that the Home Office at that date—June of last year—realised the position which the Colonial Office and the High Commissioner in Palestine seem to have ignored.
Moreover, we have just been told by the noble Earl who leads the House that you cannot try Turkish subjects because the Treaty of Sevres has not been signed. Can you, before the signature of that Treaty, sell on a large scale the property of Ottoman subjects, who are still Ottoman subjects, although the country is under military occupation? I maintain that Palestine is still Ottoman territory in British military occupation, and, if so, these sales of land, and some other proceedings, are ultra vires. I hope the noble Duke will be able to persuade me that that view is quite wrong.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, in reply to a Question by the noble Lord, Lord Sydenham, I gave your Lordships last week a brief account of the financial difficulties of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and of the steps which have been taken by the Government of Palestine to overcome them. It is quite true that the present legal position of His Majesty's Government in Palestine is that of a power occupying enemy territory. I am advised that, from a strictly legal point of view, the action taken by His Majesty's Government, through the Palestine Government,

289
with respect to the Patriarchate is entirely legal; that is, that it cannot be questioned by the Courts and will be validated in due course by the necessary legal processes when the military occupation comes to an end. I am informed that the Ordinance regulating the affairs of the Patriarchate is perfectly legal, in that it is an order of the High Commissioner who is in the position of a competent military authority.
On the other hand, it is perfectly true that this action goes somewhat beyond that which is recognised by international jurisprudence as the normal functions of an ordinary occupying power. But I would represent to your Lordships that His Majesty's Government. is not an "ordinary" occupying power. It has been entrusted by the Supreme Council of the Allies with the administration of Palestine, pending the coming into force of the Treaty of Sevres, and consequently considered itself authorised, and indeed bound, to set up a civil administration in the country for the purpose of discharging the usual functions of Government.
As I told your Lordships last week, the Patriarchate was faced, when the civil Government of Palestine came into being, with a very large number of debts which it could not meet. It would have been open to His Majesty's Government to limit itself to the ordinary functions of an occupying power and refuse to intervene; but it was clear that, as soon as civil Courts were set up, all or many of the creditors of the Patriarchate would have taken steps to recover these debts by the ordinary legal processes. There is no doubt that judgment would have been given in their favour. The Patriarchate might have been forced into bankruptcy.
I need not enlarge on the consequences which would have ensued. The whole income of the Patriarchate would have been diverted to the receivers in bankruptcy; the schools, hospices and other charitable institutions of the Patriarchate would have been closed, and the Patriarch, Synod and members of the Confraternity of the Holy Sepulchre, and the other monasteries attached to it, would have been forced to depend on casual charity for their daily bread. I think that your Lordships will agree that the Government in declaring a moratorium in favour of the Patriarchate did the only thing that it could have done, even if in so doing it overstepped what, by a narrow interpretation, might be
290
regarded as the usual functions of an occupying Power.
On the other hand, it was clearly impossible to leave matters at that., to protect the Patriarchate in perpetuity from its creditors, and to place it in a position of being able to continue to contract further liabilities, and yet be under no obligation to redeem them. In common justice to the creditors, it was necessary, as they were being deprived of their usual legal remedies against their debtor, to propound some alternative method of repayment. The Patriarch and Synod were not capable, without the assistance of the Government, of either propounding such a method of repayment or even establishing an equilibrium between their normal revenue and expenditure.
I have already described to your Lordships the steps which the Commission appointed by the Government of Palestine are taking to effect this purpose and in taking them they have, as I informed your Lordships last week, the concurrence of the Advisory Council and of the Patriarch and Synod. These steps, though on a strict interpretation of the law legal ones, are nevertheless beyond the normal functions of an occupying Power: but I submit to your Lordships that, had they not been taken, the Patriarchate would have been in a far worse position than it now is. According to International Law a country in foreign occupation must be administered according to its own law, but the occupying Power can modify this law by orders issued by the competent military authority, and this has been done in regard to many matters in Palestine, including the Patriarchate.
LORD PARMOOR: If I may say one word in answer to the noble Duke, I thank hint very much for the detailed answer that he has given to my Question, but if we look beneath the surface I think I am not going too far if I say that he, speaking on behalf of His Majesty's Government, admits that what has been done in Palestine cannot be regarded as legal under International Law, and will have to be validated by subsequent proceedings.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My reply does not admit that it is illegal action. The words I used were: "I am advised that front a strictly legal point of view the action taken by His Majesty's Government, through the Palestine Government, is entirely legal."
LORD PARMOOR: Will the noble Lord repeat the next passage, where he stated that it cannot be questioned by the Courts and will be validated in due course by the necessary legal processes. It will have to be validated in due course. In other words, it is not valid at the present time. I think I am not at all misinterpreting what the noble Duke says, and I think it is perfectly clear that there is no sanction whatever for what is being done at the present time. There are other ways in which matters of this kind might be carried out, if necessary, in accordance with International Law, and I only want to insist upon it for this reason, that there was never a. time in the world's history when the rules of International Law should be more rigidly observed, and the difficulty is that they have not been observed in many directions.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I think the last paragraph of my reply made it clear that there are powers by which the High Commissioner, representing the military authority, can modify the law. "The occupying Power can modify the law by orders issued by the competent military authority," and therefore the action taken was in that respect legal.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not wish to carry the controversy further, but I do not think I will find that that is what "modification" means in terms of International Law.

MANDATE FOR PALESTINE.
LORD SYDENHAM:My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether the terms of the British Mandate for Palestine will be open for discussion ill Parliament before it becomes operative.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, I would refer the noble Lord to the answer given to him yesterday by my noble friend the First Commissioner of Works. As my noble friend stated, the Government would raise no objection to the discussion of the terms of the Draft Mandate, if it is the general desire of the House that they should be discussed. As the noble Lord knows, the Draft has already been submitted to the Council of the League of Nations, and His Majesty's Government are, not prepared to ask the Council to postpone consideration pending discussion in Parliament.
292
I would observe, however, that so long as the Treaty of Sevres remains unratified, there is not much prospect of the Draft Mandate being formally confirmed by the Council.
LORD SYDENHAM: Might I ask the noble Duke whether the Mandate will be confirmed before the beginning of next session? If it is, of course the Houses of Parliament would have no means whatever of discussing it.

CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS ORDER.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name, which is exactly in accordance with the other Motions that I made last week. I do not think that your Lordships will require any explanation of it; if you do, I shall be glad to give it.
Moved, That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Cambridge University and Town Gas Light Company, which was presented on the 8th November, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BEDWORTII AND BCLKINGTON ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1921.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I beg to move the seven Motions standing in my name.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919. in respect of the Parish of Bedworth in the Rural District of Foleshill and the Urban District of Bulkington, both in the County of Warwick, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STEYNING ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER. 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport.

293
under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Parishes of Steyning, Bramber, and Beeding in the Rural District of Steyning West, in the Administrative County of West Sussex, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved.— ( Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BELPER AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Urban Districts of Belper and Heage and the Parish of Milford in the Rural District of Belper, all in the County of Derby, which was presented on the 9th. November, be approved.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DUNBLANE AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Burgh of Dunblane and part of the Parish of Dunblane and Lecropt in the County of Perth, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOYLAND NETHER ELECTRICITY (AMENDMENT) SPECIAL ORDER., 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, for the amendment of the Hoyland Nether Electric Lighting Order, 1912, which was presented on the 9th November, be approved.——(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DORCHESTER ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Borough of Dorchester, in the county of Dorset., which was presented on the 25th October (H..C. 237), be approved.— (Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ABERSYCHAN ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1921.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1919, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the Urban District of Abersychan in the County of Monmouth, which was presented on the 25th October (H.C. 237–1), be approved.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read la, and to be printed.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 2a; Committee negatived: Bill read 3a, and passed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills—

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2),

Poor Law Emergency Provisions (Scotland).

Trade Facilities.

National Health Insurance (Prolongation of Insurance).

Local Authorities (Financial Provisions),

Perth Corporation (Waterworks, etc.)

Order Confirmation.

Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation,

HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
And afterwards His Majesty's most gracious speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth—
My Lords, and Members of the House of Commons,
The Session of Parliament which closes to-day has been marked by events of great importance to the welfare of the British Empire and to the peace of the world. It is not yet possible to say that peace is firmly established in Europe, and it must be long before the world can recover from the strain and sacrifice of the War; but good progress has been made towards the solution of the most critical problems of home and foreign affairs.
I have welcomed with deep satisfaction the Prime Ministers of the Dominions and the Representatives of India, who have been in Conference with My Advisers here. They had questions of great moment to discuss in common and grave decisions to make. Their Presence for that purpose has been invaluable, and I trust that it may be found possible to arrange regular meetings of a like character for the further exchange. of views and the discussion of common interests.
Their deliberations on foreign policy dealt in particular with the problems of the Pacific and Far East and with the questions arising out of the Empire's obligations under the Treaty of Versailles and the other Treaties of Peace. I am happy to know that on all these issues My Governments here and oversea are in close accord.
The Conference gave serious attention to the defence of the Empire and to the maintenance of an adequate measure of sea-power. It was unanimously decided that the naval strength of the Empire should be equal to that of ally other Power.
As a result of the proposals made by the Allied Powers to Germany last May and accepted by her, satisfactory progress has been made by the German Government in the execution of their financial and disarmament obligations wider the Treaty of Versailles.
A serious rising of the Poles in Upper Silesia led to the British troops, which had been withdrawn in April, being sent back, and after difficult and anxious negotiations the insurrection was overcome, and the authority of the Inter national Commission was re-established.
The insurrection unfortunately delayed the negotiations for a settlement of the frontier, and at a meeting of the Allied and Associated Powers in Paris in August last, it was decided to invite the League of Nations to examine the whole question and to make recommendations for a settlement.
Those recommendations have recently been received, and steps are being taken to give effect to them. There is reason will to hope that they will be loyally carried out by the two parties principally concerned, and that a peaceful and honourable settlement will result.
Peace has been definitely established between the Allied Powers and Hungary. The Treaty' signed at Trianon on the 4th June, 1920, having been ratified by the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Czecho-Slovakia, Serbia, Rumania, Siam and Hungary, the ratifications were deposited at the French Ministry for Foreign Affairs on the 26th July last.
The efforts, made by My Government at the Allied Conference in March and renewed in June, to establish peace in the Near East were in each case rendered fruitless by the renewed outbreak of hostilities between the Greek and Turkish forces in Anatolia. It is my earnest desire to see these hostilities followed by an early and just peace, and My Government are prepared, in conjunction with their Allies, to take the first opportunity of furthering this end.
I have followed with great satisfaction the steps taken by the President of the United States to promote the reduction of expenditure on armaments, an object which commands the fullest sympathy of My Government.
It was in this spirit that My Government gladly accepted the invitation extended by the United States Government to a Conference on Disarmament about to be held at Washington. It is My earnest hope that the labours of the Conference will be crowned with success.
Negotiations have for sonic time been in progress, but have not yet reached a conclusion, between My Government and a delegation nominated by His Highness the Sultan of Egypt with a view to determine the future relationship of that country with Great Britain.
Progress continues to be made in the reduction of expenditure in Iraq in accordance with the policy which has been explained in the House.
My son, the Prince of Wales, has embarked upon his Eastern voyage, and within a few days will land for the first time on Indian soil. I pray that his visit. may still further strengthen the ties of affection which for so long have linked My house with the Princes and peoples of India. Upon the conclusion of his Indian tour he will proceed on a visit to the great and friendly Empire of Japan.
Members of tie' House of Commons,
I thank you for the provision for the Public Service. Although trade and commerce have been undergoing a period of unexampled depression, I learn with satisfaction that it is nevertheless anticipated that, while the estimated surplus for redemption of debts will not be realised, the financial year will end without a deficit on the Budget.
Our debts, however, are great, our taxation heavy and burdensome to industry, and revenue cannot be maintained on the scale of the last three years. It is accordingly of vital importance to the financial stability of the country that expenditure should be still further restricted in every department of life, both public and private. The Government will continue to take advantage of every possible means to achieve this essential object in the field of public expenditure, and I confidently rely upon My people in their own practice to support the efforts of My Ministers.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
The situation in Ireland still causes Me great anxiety. I earnestly exhort. the leaders of all Parties in Ireland, and all those in whose hands lies the power to influence the negotiations and discussions now proceeding, to exercise
298
patience and moderation with tire object of establishing friendship aid loyal co-operation between My people of that country. It is My firm belief, as it is My earnest prayer, that with forbearance and good will and with an honest resolve to tread the paths of oblivion and forgiveness, an enduring peace will finally be achieved.
The past summer has been notable for the occurrence of the most serious industrial conflict which has ever menaced the prosperity of the Realm. I take pride in the calm and serene spirit with which the trials of the coal stoppage were met by My people, and the freedom from strife and violence which characterised its course.
This dispute unhappily aggravated the adverse effect of the sudden world-wide trade depression, which has inflicted upon the industries of this country the most grievous experience in their history.
My Ministers have viewed with grave concern the continuance of the widespread Unemployment which has attended the cessation of trade. Accordingly you have within the past few weeks given close and detailed consideration to this problem. Measures have received My assent designed, first, to encourage the revival of industry by facilitating the provision of Capital for public undertakings and by assisting export trade, and, secondly, directly to provide employment on an extended scale by aiding Local Authorities and others to carry out various forms of beneficial works. Finally, in addition to the provision made by the Acts which you have already passed relating to Unemployment Insurance, a measure has been framed to assist in mitigating the sufferings of those who remain unemployed, by the provision, out of monies contributed by employers, employed and the State, of grants to wives and dependent children.
The peaceful settlement of many difficult disputes by mutual negotiation between employers and workpeople together with some indications of a revival of trade, encourage My hope that the worst may be over and that the state of employment may show from

299
now onwards a steady, if slow, improvement. But the position is still full of anxiety, and My Ministers will continue to devote to this problem their vigilant care.
It is not, however, so much to Acts of Parliament as to the proved good sense of employers and operatives, working together for the promotion of their common interests, that I look for the restoration of trade prosperity.
My assent has also been given to measures for the reorganisation of the railways and for the safeguarding of industry, and an Act for the Reform of the Licensing Laws has been passed with a universal and gratifying measure of agreement. But the legislation of the Session has been dominated by the difficult financial condition of the time. The imperative need for the avoidance of all fresh burdens and for the further curtailment of expenditure has required the modification of some measures already passed and the postponement to happier times of the completion of other reforms.
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF Commoss,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Monday, the thirtieth day of January, One thousand nine hundred aunt twenty-two, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Monday, the thirtieth day of January, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-two.
End of the Third Session of the Thirty-first Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the twelfth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George V.