Sitting of 4 November 1921

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND (GENERAL TRUSTEES) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed
OBAN BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
GREENOCK CORPORATION ORDER CON- FIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.

UNEMPLOYED WORKERS' DEPENDANTS (TEMPORARY PROVISION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Grants for maintenance of wife and children of unemployed workers.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act there shall, while this Act continues in force, be payable to every person who is an unemployed worker within the meaning of this Act towards the maintenance of his wife and dependent children a grant at the rate provided by this Act:
Provided that

(a) where the husband of an unemployed worker is prevented by physical or mental infirmity from supporting himself and is being maintained wholly or mainly by his wife the grant under this Act shall, instead of being payable as hereinbefore provided, be payable to the wife towards the maintenance of her husband and her dependent children; and

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(b) no grant shall be payable under this Act in respect of a wife who is in receipt of unemployment benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made under those Acts, or who is in regular wage-earning employment, or is engaged in any occupation ordinarily carried on for profit.

(2) The weekly rate of the grant payable under this Act shall be five shillings in respect of a wife or husband as the case may be, and one shilling in respect of each dependent child.
(3) Grants under this Act shall be paid subject to such conditions as to proof and otherwise and in such manner as the Minister of Labour may direct.
(4) If any question arises as to whether a grant is payable under this Act in respect of any person that question shall be referred to and decided by the Minister of Labour, who may, if he thinks fit, refer the question to the local employment committee for their report and recommendation.
The decision of the Minister of Labour on any question which is to be decided by him under this Act shall be final and conclusive and not subject to appeal to any court.
(5) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
The expression "unemployed worker" means a person who, being insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 and 1921, or under any special scheme made under those Acts, is in receipt of unemployment benefit under those Acts or under the scheme, as the case may be:
The expression "wife" means a wife who is living with or is being maintained wholly or mainly by her husband, and includes a person who is living as his wife with the person claiming a grant, and any female person who is residing with a person claiming a grant for the purpose of having the care of his dependent children and is being maintained by him:
The expression "a dependent child" means any child under the age of fourteen years who is maintained wholly or mainly at the cost of the person claiming the grant, or any child between the ages of fourteen and sixteen who is under full-time instruction in a day school and is so maintained as aforesaid:
The expression "child" includes a step-child, an adopted child or an illegitimate child;
The expression "local employment committee" means any local committee to which questions may he referred under subsection (5) of section thirteen of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920.
THE EARL of CLARENDON THE EARL of CLARENDON moved, in subsection (1), after "his wife and dependent children," to insert "or in the case of an employed worker being a woman who has a husband or children dependent on her, towards the maintenance of that husband and those children." The noble

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Earl said: I beg to move the Amendments to Clause 1 standing in my name on the Paper. As a matter of fact all these Amendments— that is to say, the first, the second and the fourth— must all be read in conjunction one with another. They are all purely drafting, I may say, and do not in any way alter the provisions contained in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 10, after (" children '') insert the said words—(The Earl of Clarendon)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 13 to 20, leave out paragraph (a)— (The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON THE EARL OF CLARENDON moved, at the end of subsection (1), to leave out "a" for a profit". The noble Earl said: It will be noticed that in line 4 on page 2 the word "a" has to be deleted from the phrase "for a profit." It is really a printer's error.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 4, leave out ("a")—(The Earl of Clarendon)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON THE EARL OF CLARENDON had an Amendment on the Paper, after proviso (b) of Clause 1, to insert the following new subsection—
" (2) Where a female person is residing with an unemployed worker, who is a widower or unmarried, for the purpose of having the care of his dependent children and is being maintained by him, or has been and is living as his wife with a person who is such an unemployed worker as aforesaid, a grant under this Act shall be payable to the unemployed worker in respect of that person at the same rate, in the same manner and subject- to the same conditions at, in and subject to which a grant is payable under this Act in respect of a wife."
The noble Earl said: There is a slight alteration to be made in the new subsection as printed, with the object of making it a little more explanatory. Towards the end of the Amendment, after the word "grant," instead of reading as printed on the Paper —" is payable under this Act in respect of a wife "— it should read as follows: "would be payable to him under this Act if that person were his wife."
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 4, at end insert the following new subsection:
(" (2) Where a female person is residing with an unemployed worker, who is a widower or unmarried, for the purpose of having the care of his dependent children and is being maintained by him, or has been and is living as his wife with it person who is such an unemployed worker as aforesaid, a grant under this Act shall be payable to the unemployed worker in respect of that person at the same rate, in the same manner and subject to the same conditions at, in and subject to which a grant would be payable to him under this Act if that person were his wife.")—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: The next Amendment is purely a drafting one, consequential upon the first that was passed.
Amendment moved—
Line 31, leave out from (" husband ") to end of line 36, and insert (" and for the purposes of this Act a husband shall he deemed to be dependent on his wife if he is prevented by physical or mental infirmity from supporting himself and is being maintained wholly or mainly by her ").— (The Earl of Clarendon)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to
Clauses 2 to 9 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I beg now to make the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXX IX be considered in order to its being dispensed with —(The Earl of Clarendon)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Amendments reported to the House; Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to time Commons.

POOR LAW EMERGENCY PROVISIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for time Second Reading read.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, under the law of Scotland, Poor Law relief can be given only to persons who are disabled as well as destitute. In England destitution is the only qualification for giving relief to the able-bodied. The main object of this Bill, which is a temporary measure, is to make the practice in this respect the

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same in Scotland as it is in England. In the past expedients had to be adopted in Scotland to mitigate the hardships that would be caused by too close an adherence to the law. For instance, hunger has been regarded as disablement, and in periods when there has been much unemployment the parish councils, which are the bodies who distribute relief in Scotland, have disregarded the test. of disablement.
During the present period of unemployment the Scottish Board of Health issued a circular to parish councils at the instigation of the Cabinet, urging them to grant relief to destitute, unemployed able-bodied persons as expedient, and, in the long run, less expensive. Parish councils have, without exception, done their best to carry out this recommendation. Clause 1 of the Bill regularises this practice, and prevents persons who will not take up work from being entitled to relief. The clause provides that parish councils are to be satisfied as to the inability of the applicants for relief to obtain employment. This clause also proposes that this modification of the Poor Law Act shall be retrospective, and have effect as from April 19 of this year.
On the suggestion of the Board of Health, certain parish councils gave relief to able-bodied unemployed during the coal dispute, and Clause 2 authorises parish councils, with the consent of the Board, to borrow a sum approved by the Board. The existing powers of the parish council enable it to borrow to the extent of one half of its unpaid assessment for the year for the purpose of carrying on its poor law functions. This power has, with some exceptions, been sufficient to enable parish councils to provide not only their ordinary Poor Law relief, but, also relief for the destitute unemployed This state of things, however, cannot last much longer, and it is therefore necessary to give the parish councils further powers of borrowing. It is recognised that it is highly desirable that this money should be repaid at as early a date as possible, and the policy of the Board in fixing, as they are authorised to do by the clause, the period for repayment of the loan, is that sanction will be given to the extended period only when they are satisfied of the ability of the parish to pay interest during that period. Clause 3 provides that the. Act will lapse at the end of the present financial year— that is to say, on May 15— but there is power to continue it for another year. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a —(Lord Stan-more)
On Question, kill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TRADE FACILITIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCKY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, the Bill the Second Reading of which I now move, must be considered in connection with, and can only be studied in connection with, those other measures for the relief of unemployment, some of which have already been placed before your Lordships. This Bill is a very intricate one, and, as there- is such a small attendance, I do not propose to go into a detailed description of it at the present time. I think that it would probably be best, if there are any points which your Lordships wish to raise, that I should deal with them on Committee stage.
I will only say two things about the Bill. It is divided into two parts. The first half gives power to the Treasury to guarantee the principal and interest, or both, of loans up to £ 25,000,000, the proceeds of which are to be spent mainly in providing work in this country, and in that way stimulating trade The provisions of that part of the Bill will be administered by an Advisory Committee of business men, but the Treasury, of course, will have ultimate responsibility for the spending of the money. The Treasury will, however, in most cases, act upon the advice of this Committee. The second portion of the Bill deals with export credits, and it extends, enlarges, and makes more easy the machinery by which that Export Credits Act will work. I should like to say that the limit of £ 26,000,000 which has already been granted by Parliament, is not proposed to be exceeded in this Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read (Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FORESTRY BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

GAMING BILL. [H.L.]
Amendment reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Repeal of 5 & 6 Geo. 4.c. 41,s.2.
1. Section two of the Gaming Act, 1835 (which makes money paid to the indorse, holder, or assignee of securities given for consideration arising out of certain gaming transactions recoverable from the person to whom the securities were originally given) is hereby repealed.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE LORD MUIR MACKENZIE moved to add to the clause: "No trustee, executor, or other person acting in a representative or fiduciary capacity shall be under any obligation to make or enforce any claim under the said section in respect of any transaction completed before the passing of this Act, or be liable for any breach of duty by reason of any failure to do so." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I prepared this Amendment in order to meet. the suggestion made by the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, in the debate last night. I am very glad that he interposed to save various irresponsible innocents out of the wreck of the Bill in one import ant particular. Sine,' our last meeting I have heard that the Inland Revenue are already making inquiries as to whether this comes within their province.
I am glad to have received a courteous message from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Sumner, authorising me to inform the House, as lie is unable to be present himself, that he agrees with the Amendment which I have put down, and has no further objection to the Bill. While, therefore, I move the Amendment, I must add that I deplore this as a substitute for the words which were struck out of the Bill, and I charge myself with a certain error of judgment in not asking your Lordships to give a direct vote of approval of the Bill as introduced. I am sure that your Lordships agreed with the view which I presented to the House, and which was so powerfully reinforced from the Woolsack, as to the intolerable injustice of which any one would be guilty who took advantage of the law as it now stands, to the general amazement and dissatisfaction.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 10, after (" repealed ") insert (" No trustee, executor, or other person acting in a representative or fiduciary capacity
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shall be under any obligation to make or enforce any claim under the said section in respect of any transaction completed before the passing of this Act, or be liable for any breach of duty by reason of any failure to do so").—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, the short effect of the change made in the Bill is simply this that in future, if the Bill becomes law, no person w Ito pays a gaming loss by cheque can recover that payment in the Law Courts; and, in the second place, that no person who, in consequence of the recent decision, would otherwise in a representative capacity be compellable by law to institute proceedings in respect of past payments by cheque, will if this Bill becomes law, be so compellable. On the merits of the two cases those of the noble Lord who moved the Amendment and of his critic, 1 agree with the former, and the reason for the advice which I gave him yesterday was simply that I was convinced that if there were to be a difference of opinion and a Division, there was not the slightest possibility of the Bill becoming law at all. I do not know if there is much possibility now, but at any rate it was better to have sonic chance than none at all, or so it seemed to me.
I agree with him upon the merits of the Bill. It seems to me that to say that there is something revolutionary in forbidding a man from taking advantage of a legal rule of which he was not aware, the assertion of which is in the individual unmeritorious and not beneficial to the public, is the merest pedantry, and if I had thought any useful purpose was to be gained by pursuing the controversy, I should have pursued it with the noble and learned Lord yesterday.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
[From Minutes of November 3.]

PERTH CORPORATION (WATERWORKS, ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant. to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a(Lord Stan-more), and reported from the Committee.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before five o'clock.