Sitting of 31 May 1921

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Mid-Glamorgan Water Board Bill [Lords].
South Shields Corporation Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Aberavon, Neath, and Swansea Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Cardiff Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Newark Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Shaftesbury Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Stoke-on-Trent Extension) Bill.

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Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Taunton Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Rotherham and Sheffield Extension) Bill.

Pier and Harbour Povisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time Tomorow.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.

Hamilton Water and Gas Provisional Order Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time Tomorrow.
Private Bill Petitions [Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Londonderry Corporation Bridge [Lords].
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Liverpool Corporation Bill [Lords],
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
London County Council (Money) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at a quarter past Eight of the Clock.

NEW WRIT.
For County of Hertford (Hertford Division) in the room of NOEL PEMBERTON BILLING, Esquire (Manor of Northstead).—[Major Christopher Lowther.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    AUXILIARY FORCE.
    Colonel Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state how many of the 32,000 men proposed for the Indian Auxiliary Force were voluntarily recruited up to 31st March last and, if the required numbers were not completed, what steps he proposes to take in the matter; and what was the maximum strength attained by the Indian Defence Force under the Compulsory Service Act?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): Up to the 31st March, 22,603, and up to the 30th April, 23,925 men were attested in the Auxiliary Force, India. These totals exclude men who are enrolled but have not yet attested. The maximum strength attained by the Indian Defence Force, according to the records available, was 33,451 in October, 1920.
    Sir C. YATE: What steps does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to bring the numbers of the Auxiliary Force up to the numbers of the old Defence Force?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I do not propose to take any steps. The matter is entirely in the hands of the Indian Government, who will make such recommendations as they may think fit, in view of the numbers enlisted.
    Sir C. YATE: Is there any time limit for voluntary recruitment, or does it go on indefinitely?
    Mr. MONTAGU: My hon. and gallant Friend will remember that we decided in the first instance to try voluntary enlistment. If voluntary enlistment be not a success, at any moment that the Government of India think that it is not, they may make recommendations for an alternative scheme.

    CAVALRY (REDUCTIONS).
    Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for India whether, despite his assurance that no further reductions would be made in the Indian Army
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    pending the inquiry into the military requirements of India by a Sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence, the Indian cavalry are being reduced from 39 regiments of four squadrons each to 21 regiments of three squadrons each, and orders are now being issued for the disbandment of the 35th Sikhs, 42nd Deoli Regiment, 43rd Erinpura Regiment, 44th Merwara Regiment, the 108th Infantry, and other pre-War regiments of the Indian Army; and whether he will countermand the orders for these reductions pending the result of the inquiry by the Sub-committee?
    Mr. MONTAGU: As regards the cavalry, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given in this House to his question of 3rd May on the same subject. In the case of the 44th Merwara Infantry, I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave on May 10th. Of the other infantry battalions mentioned, two are still serving overseas and two in India. As I stated in replying to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend on April 6th, reductions of units no longer required will take place as opportunity offers, but no reductions which would bring the Indian Army below the proposed post-War strength of 21 Indian cavalry regiments and 132 infantry and pioneer battalions will take place pending consideration of the whole matter by the Sub-committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence. Which particular units should be disbanded on becoming surplus to requirements is a question which must be left to the Government of India.
    Sir C. YATE: Did not the right hon. Gentleman agree that no pre-War regiment should be disbanded until after the Committee had reported, and these are all pre-War regiments which are now being disbanded, much to the disappointment of the men in India?
    Mr. MONTAGU: If my hon. and gallant Friend will refresh his memory, he will see that there is nothing inconsistent in anything which I have previously said with the answer that I have just given. The only regiment which I have described as being disbanded is the 44th Merwara Infantry. If he will refer to my answer of the 10th, he will find that explained.

    BURMA, CONSTITUTION.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the Burmese opposition to the Local Self-Government Bill now before the Burma Legislative Council; and whether he will have this measure postponed, as in most provinces of India, till after the grant of dyarchy to Burma, when local government will become a transferred subject?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I have not yet received the proceedings of the Legislative Council relating to this Bill, and have seen no evidence of popular opposition to it.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman get the Burmese papers, and has not he observed the opposition?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I have not observed any popular opposition to it. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any observations to make, I shall be glad to receive them.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for India whether he will lay Papers showing the correspondence between the Government of India and the India Office concerning the Burma constitution, which has been published in the Burma newspapers of 30th April?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I am not quite sure what correspondence the hon. and gallant Member has in mind, but I gather that the correspondence recently published in Burma is that which was presented to Parliament on 11th March as Cmd. 1194.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can we have the subsequent correspondence between the Government of India and the India Office published, to complete the series of papers?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I am afriad that I must look to see what correspondence there is before I can give any assurance.

    SHWEDAGON PAGODA.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet any news to give as to the restoration of the west stepway to the trustees of the Shwedagon Pagoda, which has been so long under the consideration of the military authorities in Burma?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I am informed that the relinquishment of the portion of the outer Pagoda precincts occupied by the military authorities is an integral part of a comprehensive scheme for the removal of the Cantonment of Rangoon to a site some 15 miles away. Definite proposals to this end are now in progress between the Government of India and the local authorities, but negotiations for the exchange of land are likely to take longer than I had anticipated. I am in communication with the Government of India on the subject.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question has now been under discussion for nearly three years. Can he give some assurance to the people of Burma that the Government do contemplate the earliest possible relinquishment of that site?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I have already given an assurance on the matter to the House, but it is part of a larger scheme, and I am afraid that I cannot act until the scheme is complete.

    OFFICERS' PAY (RUPEE EXCHANGE).
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir F. HALLasked the Secretary of State for India when he will be able to state what steps are to be taken to remedy the present condition in India under which the rupee rates of pay of British service officers in India are less than the home rates of pay and allowances converted at the current rate of exchange?
    Mr. MONTAGU: The question presents many difficulties. I regret to say no decision has yet been reached.
    Sir F. HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to get into communication with the Indian Government to see if some alteration cannot be made, seeing that the present position is so hard on British officers serving in India?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I am in active communication with the Government of India, and a telegram from them is now under the consideration of my Council. I will do my best to get special consideration.
    Sir F. HALL: If I put down a question in a fortnight, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give me an answer?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I very much hope so.

    DEMOBILISED OFFICERS.
    Sir C. YATEhad given notice of the following question: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state for what reason demobilised officers in India, who have been detained for so many weeks past at Deolali pending transport to England, have been compelled to sign a declaration that they would not hold the Government responsible in the event of accidents occurring out of the trooping season owing to hot weather risks; whether this declaration applies to the wives of the officers concerned and what compensation is to be given to those officers who have been kept long after the expiration of their contract date at personal loss to themselves?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Sir Charles Yate.
    Sir C. YATE: Question No. 10 is postponed. If I put down the question again in a fortnight, will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give me an answer?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I will telegraph to the Government of India. If my hon. and gallant Friend will put down the question in a fortnight and I have not a complete answer then, perhaps, he will be good enough to repeat it.

    CONSTANTINOPLE (BRITISH REQUISITIONS).
    Mr. RAPERasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now received a report from the military authorities in Constantinople regarding the alleged seizure of goods by the British military authorities; and, if so, what is the nature of this report?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): I am informed that, as far as can be ascertained by local inquiry, the following property has been requisitioned from the Turkish Government by the military authorities at Constantinople:
    Royal Engineer stores of various kinds to the approximate value of £57,000. Of this, building materials have been incorporated in works services, and machinery is either in use or in Royal Engineer store.
    Signal stores to the approximate value of £850. Two wireless stations
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    were also taken over in situ, and are used by the British Authorities in conjunction with the Allies.
    A number of motor vehicles were requisitioned, but these were returned in 1919. There are still with the British Naval Base four motor cars which were requisitioned.
    It is impossible to say whether any of the property belonged to the Young Turk party.

  IRELAND.

    BRIGADIER-GENERAL CROZIER.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Secretary of State for War if he will give the personal record of service in the Army of Brigadier-General Crozier, lately commanding the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): As the answer to this question is of a detailed nature I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Captain W. BENN: Is the right hon. Gentleman willing to give the personal record of any other officer whose name is put down on the Question Paper?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: If a question be asked, I will answer it.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. HOARE: Was the personal record given to the Government of Ireland when General Crozier was appointed?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I believe that the official record was given, but I am not absolutely sure.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to insure that when the Irish Office consults him as to the suitability of officers for police employment he will give them not only the official record but also the personal record of the officers concerned
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I can give the official record. That is all I can give. I cannot give personal records. It would be impossible for a Minister to give personal records which are complete and reliable. All I can pretend to do is to give the official records.
    Captain BENN: Was the information which the right hon. Gentleman is going to give this House in his possession when he recommended General Crozier to this appointment?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I did not recommend him. The official record, of course, was in the possession of the War Office and that is all I am giving. I am not giving any personal record. I am giving an official record.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Is the whole of the trouble not due to the division of responsibility between the Adjutant-General and the Director of Personal Services? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in future appointments, where the personal suitability of a man apart from War service is most important, the Director of Personal Services is consulted?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I think that is rather a matter for argument. As far as the facts are concerned I am giving the official record, and of course I give the official record whenever I am asked for it in respect of an officer who is about to be employed.
    The following is the answer referred to:
    The official record of the services in the Army of Brigadier-General F. P. Crozier is as follows:—
    Born, 9th January, 1879.
    Served as Lieutenant in 4th Battalion, Middlesex Rifle Volunteers, 1896.
    Served as Lieutenant in Militia, 1897, and as a corporal in Thornycroft's Mounted Infantry in the South African War.
    Obtained a commission as 2nd Lieutenant in the Manchester Regiment (from ranks of Local Military Forces, Natal), 19th May, 1900.
    Lieutenant, Manchester Regiment, 13th July, 1901.
    Employed with West African Frontier Force from 3rd June, 1901, to 17th September, 1905.
    To half-pay, 31st March, 1908.
    Resigned commission, 17th June, 1908.
    Commissioned as Captain, 3rd Battalion, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, 17th June, 1908.
    Resigned commission, 22nd May, 1909.
    War, 1914–1919.
    Commissioned Temporary Captain, Service Battalions, September, 1914.
    9th Service Battalion (West Belfast), Royal Irish Rifles.
    Temporary Major, Second in Command, 4th September, 1914.
    Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel whilst Commanding Battalion, 8th January, 1916.
    Temporary Brigadier - General, General List, 20th November, 1916.
    Commander, 119th Infantry Brigade.
    Relinquished appointment and temporary rank of Brigadier-General, 15th April, 1919.
    Lieut.-Colonel F. P. Crozier, temporary to Command 3rd Reserve Battalion, Welsh Regiment, 24th April, 1919.
    Ceased to Command 3rd Reserve Battalion, Welsh Regiment, 22nd July, 1919.
    Relinquished Commission and granted honorary rank of Brigadier-General, 31st July, 1919.
    Unofficial. — Attached Lithuanian Delegation, Paris. General Major Lithuanian Forces.
    War Services.
    South African War, 1899–1901.—Relief of Ladysmith, including action at Colenso; operations of 17th to 24th January, 1900, and action at Spion Kop; operations of 5th to 7th February and action at Vaal Kranz; operations on Tugela Heights (14th to 27th February). Operations in Natal, March to June, 1900, including action at Laing's Nek (6th to 9th June). Operations in Orange River Colony, May to 28th November, 1900, including actions at Wittebergen (1st to 29th July), and Caledon River (27th to 29th July).
    Operations in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, 30th November to December, 1900.
    Operations in Cape Colony, December, 1900, to January, 1901. Queen's Medal with seven clasps.
    West Africa (Northern Nigeria), 1903.—Kano-Sokoto Campaign. Medal with clasp. Sokoto-Burmi operations.
    The War of 1914–19.—Despatches "London Gazette," 4th January, 1917; 15th May, 1917; 11th December, 1917; 20th May, 1918; 20th December, 1918; and 5th July, 1919. French War Cross, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O.

    OUTRAGES, LONDON.
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when it is proposed to return the documents, pictures, etc., seized at the offices of the Irish Self-Determination League of Great Britain and the Gaelic League of London at 182, Shaftesbury Avenue, London?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): The documents, etc., are being examined, and such as it may be proper to return will be handed to the Irish Self-Determination League and the Gaelic League in due course.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Home Secretary how many Irish men and women have been recently arrested by armed detectives from Scotland Yard; how many of the persons arrested have been released and how many deported because no evidence was forthcoming on which they could be charged or tried; and whether it is proposed to apply the Deportation Regulation to all sections of the population of this country, or whether it is to be exclusively applied to persons of Irish birth or descent?
    Mr. SHORTT: Fifteen men and five women were detained by the Metropolitan Police as persons who were believed to be concerned in the outrages on 15th May. Eight of the men and the five women have been released, and seven men have been interned under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Regulations, because it was found that they were closely concerned with the persons and the organisation responsible for outrages. In one case the arrest had been authorised before 15th May, as the man was already known to be concerned in the organisation which had planned the earlier outrages. The Regulation under which internment is ordered is being applied impartially to persons of every nationality, but hitherto there has been no need to intern any persons not of Irish birth or descent.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if there was proof against these persons why were they not brought before a competent court in this country when the offence was alleged to have been committed in this country? Are we to understand that anyone may be arrested in this way?
    Mr. SHORTT: No, Sir. These persons were arrested properly in accordance with the Regulations.
    Captain W. BENN: Does that imply that it is competent for the right hon. Gentleman to arrest persons without warrant in this country, under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act?
    Major M. WOOD: Is there anything to prevent these men being brought before a civil court in this country?
    Mr. SHORTT: No, the real danger is getting old men and women to give evidence.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Does the right hon. Gentleman inform the House that the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act applies also to this country, and that the terms of the Act can be applied to any individual here?
    Mr. SHORTT: If that individual is concerned in creating disorder in Ireland, he can be arrested in this country for that crime in Ireland.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: When offences are committed in this country, why is the person not tried in this country?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not really arise.
    Mr. J. JONES: In the case of people who have been released from imprisonment, after being kept for days without any charge preferred against them, are they going to receive compensation for loss of employment?
    Mr. SHORTT: No, Sir.

    PRISONERS BEATEN, LIMERICK.
    Captain W. BENN(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the beating of prisoners was reprehended by the Judge Advocate in the Limerick trials, and what steps the Government has taken to put a stop to it?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Colonel Sir Hamar Greenwood): This arose in the martial law area. I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that the ill-treatment of prisoners was disclosed at two separate trials by court-martial at Limerick. In one case the Court gave it as their opinion that the ill-treatment of the accused by the police

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    on this occasion was detestable, and very damaging statements made by the accused shortly after their arrest were not admitted as evidence. In the second case the constable admitted on oath striking an accused man in the absence of his superior officers, and the Judge Advocate, summing up, pointed out that this was the second occasion on which the police were alleged to have beaten an accused man after arrest. He further remarked that he would not admit any statements taken in evidence from accused persons a few minutes after they had had a sound beating, and ruled that a statement made by the accused shortly after his arrest was not admissible against him. The statement of the Judge Advocate were immediately brought to the notice of the Commander-in-Chief and the Divisional Commissioner of Police and orders were at once issued that the allegations of the ill-treatment of the accused were to be made the subject of further and strictest inquiry, and severe disciplinary action taken against the persons found responsible. The inquiry into the conduct of the police referred to is proceeding. Naturally the Government reprobates any such ill-treatment, and every step possible will be taken to prevent any recurrence and to punish every offender. I am circulating the statement of the Judge Advocate throughout the police forces in Ireland.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have given him chapter and verse of this sort of occurrence month after month and can he tell me why it is that only when the matter receives publicity from the excellent action of one of his officers he is taking the necessary steps?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I agree with the hon. and gallant Member in what he says as to the excellence of the action of the Judge Advocate. The House knows that this gentleman is the legal adviser to every court-martial. He is himself a trained lawyer, and I think it is a confirmation of the courage of this officer and of officers like him that they bring to the notice of the Government any breach of discipline or crime by the forces which may come under their notice.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: What else would you expect a British officer to do?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I can only assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that every case brought to my notice is searched and probed to the bottom. There is no matter of greater interest to the Government than to preserve unblemished the discipline of the police and other forces.
    Captain BENN: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly say of what the Judge Advocate stands in fear when he speaks in that fashion?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: The only persons the Judge-Advocate or other officers of the Crown stand in fear of in Ireland are the assassins of the Irish Republican Army.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that that is relevant to the matter which we have in hand.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    MOBILISED RESERVE OFFICERS.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Secretary of State for War whether officers who, on being called up in the Army Reserve, merely registered without being given any military duty have been receiving pay of their rank since the Reserves were called up; whether this arrangement was only for a certain period or continues up to date; and whether he can give any idea of the expense involved by the failure to discriminate in pay between officers of the Reserve actually called up for work and those who were immediately allowed to return to civil life?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given on 12th May last to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Portsmouth North. I regret that it is not possible to give an estimate of the amount of pay issued in such cases.
    Major MOLSON: Are officers paid for full time if they are not doing full time?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: If my hon. and gallant Friend will look at the answer, I think he will see.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: How many men at present in camp are leading an absolutely idle life at the country's expense?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: That does not arise out of this question.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Apart from the answer given the other day, is it not a fact that a lot of men have received money for doing no work whatever? If necessary, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman alter the provisions of the Royal Warrant so as to secure that in any future emergency of this kind only those Reservists need be called up for whom work is available?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: For a short time it was so officers were receiving pay when they were not doing any work. The question of altering the Royal Warrant is under consideration in case any emergency should arise in future.
    Mr. J. JONES: Apply the principle all round!

    RETIRED OFFICERS (RE-EMPLOYMENT).
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESSasked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that Article 496 of the Royal Warrant for Pay provides, inter alia, that in the case of retired officers compulsorily recalled to service they shall receive the same rates of pay and allowances as officers of corresponding Army rank in addition to any retired pay of which they may be in receipt and, seeing that this provision was in force for many years before the outbreak of War and was therefore until its suspension last September a condition on which officers accepted service with the liability to be recalled to service in time of national emergency under Article 518, will he say whether there is any precedent or justification for a retrospective variation of such a contract of service in the interests of one party and without the consent of the officer concerned?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: The operation of this Article was duly suspended by Royal Warrant, and I cannot admit that that action was in any way ultra vires.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Is it not a fact that officers who joined the Army with a Reserve obligation had the expectation for many years before the War that they would have certain advantages in case they were called up, and apart from this new arrangement being ultra vires is it not a matter of injustice that the conditions should be changed without the officers being consulted?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: As a matter of fact this condition did not arise until 1907.

    STAFF COLLEGE.
    Sir S. HOAREasked the Secretary of State for War what was the number of staff officers of the instructional staff at the staff college, and the staff grading of each on 1st May, 1914, and on 1st May, 1921; and, if there is any rise in the numbers on a higher grading with consequent increase of cost on the latter date as compared with the former date, what is the reason for such rise and increase?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: As the reply to the first part of the question is somewhat long, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The figures show an increase in the number of higher gradings. This is due to the fact that, as the whole of the students for the last three courses have been specially selected officers who have held high rank in the field, both in command and on the staff, the courses have been of an advanced nature and necessitated instructors whose position and seniority require higher gradings than those of the previous staff. The present establishment is temporary, and a reduction in the numbers and in the gradings of the staff is at present under consideration, as the future courses will probably be composed of more junior officers.
    Sir S. HOARE: Does the answer include the comparative cost for 1914 and 1921?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I do not think that was asked in the question. I have given the numbers and the grading at both periods.
    The following is the reply:
    The number and gradings of staff officers of the instructional staff at the Staff College on 1st May, 1914, were as follows:—

    1 Commandant.

    2 General Staff Officers (First Grade).

    10 General Staff Officers (Second Grade).

    2 Deputy Adjutant and Quarter Master Generals.

    The corresponding figures for the 1st May, 1921, are as follows:—

    1 Commandant.

    4 Colonels on the Staff.

    10 General Staff Officers (First Grade).

    2 Assistant Adjutant Generals.

    2 Assistant Quarter Master Generals.

    HOME WAR SERVICE (MEDALS).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for War whether any decision has yet been come to as to the issue of a Home-service medal to all officers, noncommissioned officers, and men who came under hostile fire in the United Kingdom during the war years; whether this question has now been under consideration since 1919; and whether, in view of the age of many of the men who served at Home stations and who are desirous of obtaining such a recognition of their war services, he can state when such a medal would be ready for delivery if it is decided to issue one?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: As explained by the late Secretary of State on more than one occasion, it was impossible to deal with this question until the preparation and issue of the War medals were well advanced. The question is however now receiving careful consideration, and I hope a decision will not be long delayed.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake not to promise the issue of any more War medals until outstanding questions relating to the Territorial Force medal have been cleared up?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am trying to avoid any promise.
    Captain LOSEBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that if many more of these medals are issued, the value of the medal will be completely gone?
    Mr. HURD: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether the value of the service is not the true measure?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Both of those and all other considerations are taken into account.
    Mr. SWAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that men who served get proper
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    designations on their medals? Men who have received the medal have on it a wrong designation, and they cannot get it altered.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars, I will look into the matter.

    ALEXANDRA HOSPITAL, PORTSMOUTH.
    Major Sir B. FALLEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the assistants at Alexandra Hospital, Portsmouth, are paid the dockyard town rates; and, if not, if he will see to it that such rates be paid from October last, when the Alexandra Hospital came into the borough of Portsmouth?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I am in communication with my hon. and gallant Friend regarding the civilian employés at the Alexandra Hospital, Cosham, who are not at present paid dockyard rates of wages. Local inquiries are in progress, and as soon as these inquiries are complete I will communicate further with my hon. and gallant friend.

    WAR OFFICE (STAFF).
    Sir S. HOAREasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will publish a White Paper showing in detail the military and civilian staff of the War Office, section by section and department by department, at the present time and in July, 1914?
    Colonel NEWMANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will grant a return of officers, warrant officers, and soldier clerks, giving ranks, monthly cost, and how much of the increase in cost is attributable to increases of pay and allowances, of those employed in the War Office and its detached departments on 1st August, 1914, and 1st May, 1921; a similar return for each separate command; and a return of civilians and ex-officers not included in the above employed in the War Office and separate commands, with the monthly cost, on 1st August, 1914, and 1st May, 1921?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I think that my hon. and gallant Friends will find the information for which they ask in the printed Estimates for 1914–15

    813
    and the current year. The references are Army Estimates, 1914–15, pages 27, 89–99, 124–127 and 177, and Army Estimates, 1921–22, pages 100–102, 148–158, and 160–169.
    Sir S. HOARE: Does the reference cover the details for which I ask about various sections and sub-sections? Do I understand that in these Estimates every employé of the War Office, whether temporary or permanent, civilian or military, is included?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I ask my hon. and gallant Friend to look at the reference. I have tried to make it as easily as possible. If that does not give him the information, as I have nothing to hide, I will see whether a return cannot be made giving more precise information, but I want to avoid that labour in the Department if I can.
    Colonel NEWMAN: Does that answer apply to my question?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It does. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will find that I have completely answered him, but if not I will give another return, though it will take a long time to prepare.

    ROYAL GUNPOWDER FACTORY, WALTHAM ABBEY (DISCHARGES).
    Brigadier-General COLVINasked the Secretary of State for War whether disabled ex-service men, now under notice of discharge from the Royal Gunpowder Factory, Waltham Abbey, will be absorbed in the vacancies caused by the retirement of men who have reached the age limit?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I regret that the position at the Royal Gunpowder Factory, Waltham Abbey, is such that a number of discharges are necessary, owing to reductions in establishment, notwithstanding vacancies caused by retirements, etc.
    Captain GEE: Has an order been issued for a reduction of the age limit from 65 to 60?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I could not answer that question without notice.
    Brigadier-General COLVIN: Did I understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that ex-soldiers would be allowed to fill the vacancies?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: That is done.

    GULF OF ST. LAWRENCE.
    Sir A. WILLIAMSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any area of the estuary of the St. Lawrence or Gulf of St. Lawrence situated further than three miles from the nearest land is regarded by the Government as being within territorial waters?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill): The answer is in the affirmative.

  MESOPOTAMIA.

    RAILWAYMEN'S WAGES.
    Mr. J. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the High Commissioner of Baghdad has reconsidered the case of men that were recruited for the railways in Mesopotamia with regard to the continued fall in the value of the rupee; whether he is aware that since their engagement the value of the rupee has fallen from 2s. 6d. to less than 1s. 4d. and, in view of the hardship imposed on these men, who have to maintain their families at home, will he have immediate inquiries made into this matter?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The promise to reconsider the case of these men in a few months was made by the High Commissioner as recently as the 10th of February, and I have no doubt that the undertaking will be fulfilled, though no report that the matter has been reconsidered has yet been received. I am aware of the fall in the value of the rupee since the men were engaged, and have recently asked the High Commissioner to consider the position of those employés who have to make remittances to their families.

    EXPENDITURE.
    Lieut-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what is the estimated total expenditure in Mesopotamia during the present year, exclusive of military expenditure, but including the cost of road and railway construction,

    815
    building operations, administration, and transport; how much of this money does he anticipate will be raised out of the local revenues; and who will bear the cost of the deficit, if any?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am awaiting final figures of the local revenue and expenditure of Mesopotamia during the current financial year. Such charges as are to be met from Imperial funds will be included in the Supplementary Estimates to be taken on Thursday.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Did the administration of Mesopotamia produce any estimate of what they expected to spend during the present year, or were they given a completely free hand?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Of course, they made their Budget calculations, but there are still some items, as between the two systems, which have not yet been finally determined. I shall be prepared to go into the matter fully later on.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My question asks for an estimate of the total expenditure. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I applied several times to the India Office when they had charge of this matter, and they could give me no information at all, and can he do nothing?

    RUBBER PRODUCTION (SUBSIDIES).
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in any foreign rubber-producing countries the Government has granted a subsidy or made an allowance to rubber planters under its jurisdiction; and whether he has considered the application of this policy to similarly situated British Colonies?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I understand that in some foreign countries such a subsidy is granted, but I have no definite information, and I would suggest reference to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. So far as I am aware no similar action is contemplated in any of the Colonies.

    GRENADA.
    Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply he has made to the petition of the Colony of
    816
    Grenada for the substitution for Crown colony government of some system based on popular representation?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The petition has been considered, and it has been decided to introduce an element of elected representation into the Legislative Council of Greneda. The Governor has been informed accordingly, and has been instructed to appoint a Commission or Committee to report on the details of the proposed change.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does this in any way prejudice the federation of the West Indian islands?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must ask for notice of that question.
    Sir S. HOARE: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think the time has come for an inquiry into the cases of the Grenada and all other West Indian Constitutions?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must also ask for notice of that question.
    Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Grenada Legislature has taken any, and, if so, what action upon his recent despatch concerning Transatlantic steamship communications what other Colonies have taken action in the matter; and what are the prospects of an early improvement in this respect?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Legislative Council of Grenada decided that, subject to certain conditions, the Colony would make a contribution of £1,500 for a combined Transatlantic and inter-Colonial service, or £500 for a fortnightly trans-Atlantic steamship service. The Colonies of British Guiana, Barbados, St. Lucia, and the Presidency of St. Kitts Nevis are, I understand, also favourable in principle to a contribution to the cost of a Transatlantic service. The question whether His Majesty's Government will contribute a subsidy to enable a satisfactory service to be resumed is now under consideration.
    Mr. HURD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that consideration would not be assisted if some such inquiry were made?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That has nothing to do with the question on the paper.

    LETTERS (POLICE SEIZURE).
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. W. H. Hunt, who on 22nd March was called into the general office of the Haunchwood Colliery Company whether he is aware that it is alleged that the chairman of directors of that company read a copy of a letter to Mr. Hunt which Hunt himself had sent to a printing firm in Glasgow that the contents of this letter were merely a request to send on publications issued by that firm that Hunt was dismissed without being given any opportunity of explaining the matter and that the publishing firm, the Bakunin Press, were raided by the police and letters as well as publications taken away; if he will say whether a copy of Hunt's letter to this firm was supplied by the police to his employers and, if so, whether this is to be accepted as the general policy of the authorities?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave on Thursday last to questions about this case.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question as to the general policy of the authorities in this country?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have already answered that.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Prussian methods!

    WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT.
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the recent case in the Court of Appeal in which Edward Reid, a quay foreman, of Shadwell, employed by the British and Irish Steam Packet Company, Limited, claimed compensation for injuries received in the course of his employment, and Lord Justice Scrutton, overruling the decision of the County Court Judge, held that Reid was not entitled to compensation on the ground that he was earning over £250 a year, but added that £250 now was a very different thing from £250 before the War; and whether he will consider the propriety of amending the Workmen's Compensation Act so as to meet cases of this character?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have seen a report of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the case mentioned. The recent Departmental Committee on Workmen's Compensation recommended that the income limit of £250 a year, which, I may observe, applies only to non-manual workers, should be raised to £350 so as to restore the pre-War position. This recommendation will be carefully considered when amending legislation is undertaken.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the limit be increased to meet this, in the case of manual work, in view of the decreased value of money?
    Mr. SHORTT: This limit does not apply to manual workers.

    CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the increasing popular resentment against the continuance of the existence of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), he will take steps to forthwith abolish the Board?
    Mr. SHORTT: The Government have already stated that they cannot undertake legislation on this subject during the present Session.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large number of the Members of this House desired to debate and vote upon the Liquor Control Board as a simple issue that they sent in a requisition signed by between 100 and 200 asking for a day; that they balloted for a day and got a day, but that the election of Mr. Speaker to the Chair coming up upon that day caused them to lose their chance? Will he not now give the Members of this House an opportunity of debating and voting upon the question of this Control Board as a simple issue in which the public are very much concerned?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have heard of some of the facts mentioned by my hon. Friend.
    Sir F. HALL: Why do the Government desire to burk any inquiry into this matter, and why will they not allow discussion in the House?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have answered it already.
    Sir F. HALL: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered. We can never get an answer.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: I propose at the conclusion of Questions to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to raise this matter.
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Home Secretary whether the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, who is chairman of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), is in the latter capacity entirely independent of the Home Office; and, if this is the case, is there any vote in respect whereof the Control Board's actions may be discussed?
    Mr. SHORTT: The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative: the answer to the second paragraph is that the Vote for the Central Control Board itself is the Vote upon which the Board's actions may be discussed.
    Lieut.-Colonel HILDERasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as chairman of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), if he can state in what respect the restrictions on the sale of fermented and spirituous liquors are modified in certain favoured districts; and will he give the list of those districts and explain the reason for this differentiation?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Baird): On the assumption that the question refers to the areas which have never been scheduled under the Defence of the Realm (Liquor Control) Regulations, 1915, the answer is that no restrictions have ever been applied to them by the Central Control Board. No modification of their position has therefore been made by the recent Orders of the Board, which apply in substantially identical terms to the scheduled areas of Great Britain generally, i.e., to the districts which are defined in Article 1 of each of the Orders.

    ALIENS (COMMUNIST MOVEMENT).
    Sir F. HALLasked the Home Secretary what is the number of aliens at
    820
    present resident in this country who are suspected of being concerned in the numerous Communist plots which have recently come to light; if he will state why these undesirable persons have not been deported; what is the number of aliens who were sent out of the country in the 12 months to 30th April, 1921 and if he will publish a statement from time to time giving particulars of the persons so expelled, in order that the public may be enlightened as to the prominent part played by these aliens in the Sinn Fein and Communist conspiracy as well as in the industrial troubles that have originated in those movements?
    Mr. SHORTT: It is impossible to say how many aliens are associated with the Communist movement in this country. If any alien commits or incites to the commission of an offence against the State or public order, I should not hesitate to deport him if his removal to his own country is practicable. Up to the present one alien has been convicted—on 12th April last—of such an offence, and I shall deal with the question of his deportation at the end of his sentence. Many persons bearing alien names are, however, British subjects, and cannot be deported. The total number of deportation Orders made against alien for all causes during the year ending 30th April was 533. I do not think the publication suggested in the last part of the question would serve the object the hon. and gallant Member has in view.
    Sir F. HALL: If the right hon. Gentleman's Department have this matter clearly before them, have particular instructions been given with regard to those aliens who can be traced in any way as having, or are suspected of having, any connection with these outbreaks, and will steps be taken at once in order that they may be deported?
    Mr. SHORTT: I have said that is being done.
    Colonel C. LOWTHER: In the event of it not being practicable to deport an alien to his own country, could he not be interned for the moment in this country?
    Mr. SHORTT: We have no internment camps.
    Colonel C. LOWTHER: Cannot we have them? In the case of undesirable

    821
    aliens the right hon. Gentleman has the power to revoke their certificates of naturalisation.
    Mr. SHORTT: I am not talking of naturalised aliens; I am talking of British-born British subjects.
    Mr. J. JONES: Whatever action he takes, will he undertake that it will also apply to counter-revolutionary agents in this country from other countries?
    Mr. SHORTT: I think that would be a question for Parliament.

    CEYLON (FRANCHISE).
    Mr. ORMSBY GOREasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in any revision of the Ceylon Constitution, he will give an undertaking that the advisability or inadvisability of extending the franchise to women on the same terms as men be left to the decision of the Ceylon Legislature in the same manner and subject to the same safeguards as this question has been left to the legislative councils of the eight major provinces of British India?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In such a matter I should certainly give the fullest consideration to the views of the Legislative Council. As, however, my hon. Friend will be aware, the analogy between the Ceylon Government and that of the provinces of British India is not sufficiently complete to justify the adoption of any policy in Ceylon on the ground that it has been adopted by provincial Governments in India.

    PRINCE CHRISTOPHER OF GREECE.
    Mr. SPOORasked the Prime Minister whether Prince Christopher of Greece is proposing to come to England; whether, as his brother King Constantine has not been recognised by His Majesty's Government, residence in England will be allowed; and, if so, what guarantees will be required as to the prevention of any intrigue arising out of such visit or residence?
    The UNDER - SECRETARY for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): The answer to the first part of
    822
    the question is in the negative. The other parts do not, therefore, arise.

    SCOTTISH UNIVERSITIES.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Secretary for Scotland whether the annual financial and statistical reports of the Scottish universities for the year ending 30th September, 1920, as required by Clause 30 of the Scottish Universities Act of 1889, have been received by him; whether they will be made available for Members of the House; and whether the tables contained in the Returns from universities and university colleges just issued by the University Grants Committee is intended to take their place?
    The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro): I have received statistical reports for the Session 1919–20 from two Scottish universities. The question whether the tables contained in the Returns from universities and university colleges issued by the University Grants Committee and presented to Parliament shall take the place of the two reports issued separately for each of the four universities, is under consideration.
    Mr. SCOTT: Can the right hon. Gentleman give me any idea within what time that matter will be determined?
    Mr. MUNRO: I hope there will be no delay. I think the matter comes before the Universities Committee of the Privy Council.
    Mr. SCOTT: About a fortnight?
    Mr. MUNRO: I hope so.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BRITISH EXPENDITURE).
    Mr. WISEasked the Prime Minister what is the cost to the country of the United Kingdom being one of the League of Nations; and if he will consider, with a view to economy, at a meeting of Prime Ministers of the Empire next month, the desirability of withdrawing from the League, as the United States of America is not a member?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): I would refer my hon. Friend

    823
    to the provision made in the Estimates for the current financial year for Civil Services (Class V, Vote 5) in respect of the cost of Great Britain's membership of the League of Nations. The answer to the latter part of the question is in the negative.
    Colonel ASHLEY: What is the gain to this country of belonging to the League of Nations?

  PEACE TREATIES.

    GERMAN REPARATION.
    Mr. ROBERT RICHARDSONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement in this House on 21st July, 1920, on the subject of reparations, that it would obviously make a very great difference to Germany's capacity to pay if the important coalfield of Upper Silesia was torn out of Germany and handed to Poland, and in view of the possibility that part of this coalfield would be awarded to Poland, any arrangement has been made to secure a corresponding deduction in the payments or deliveries to be made by Germany?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member will have observed that the Schedule of Payments prescribing the time and manner for discharging Germany's reparation obligations which has been accepted by the German Government lays down that Germany shall pay in each year (in addition to £100,000,000 gold) a sum equivalent to 26 per cent. of the value of her exports or, alternatively, an equivalent amount fixed in accordance with any other index proposed by Germany and accepted by the Reparation Commission. The amount of the payments required from Germany in each year is governed therefore by her capacity to pay.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what advantage accrues to this country from collecting the German indemnity under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act instead of under the general scheme of the exports tax, as agreed on at the London Conference?
    Mr. YOUNG: In the opinion of His Majesty's Government it is desirable that
    824
    the German Reparation (Recovery) Act should remain in force at any rate until experience of the working of the levy on German exports laid down in the Schedule of Payments prescribed by the Reparation Commission has been obtained.
    Captain BENN: Would the hon. Gentleman kindly answer the question on the Paper; what is the advantage; does he say that we shall get more money this way than from the application of the exports tax?
    Mr. YOUNG: The advantage that accrues by continuing to work the scheme under the Reparation Act is that of experience.
    Captain BENN: May I ask the hon. Gentleman to answer the question: is it for the financial advantage that we shall get?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not the fact that we would get an increased indemnity under the German exports scheme, and that an increase under this Act will prevent German exports to this country, and so reduce the indemnity?
    Mr. YOUNG: Undoubtedly, that is an argumentative question.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Then does the hon. Gentleman say that the Act is being continued more in order that we may gain experience?
    Mr. YOUNG: Perhaps my hon. Friend will read the reply to the original question, and I think, if he considers it, to cover his question.
    Major M. WOOD: Are not the Customs officials applying the Act in a way that Parliament has not sanctioned, and is not that a trend of it?
    Mr. YOUNG: I could not say on the spur of the moment what the practice is in all the cases; perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give me notice.
    Mr. KILEY: Is it not a fact that German goods, imported from France, Belgium, Holland, or through Switzerland, do not come under these Reparations in any shape, manner, or form, while if imported direct they pay Reparations?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That hardly arises on the question.

    "WORKERS' DREADNOUGHT."
    Sir F. HALLasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the appeal to the Moscow Soviet for funds published in the "Workers' Dreadnought," and to the statement in the same issue of the journal that it is constantly receiving money from foreign parts and whether the Government will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to stop this subsidising by alien organisations of newspapers established for the purpose of spreading sedition?
    Mr. SHORTT: I doubt if the article in the "Dreadnought" of 21st May, to which the hon. and gallant Member no doubt refers, can be construed as containing an appeal to Moscow. The "Dreadnought" having quarreled with the Communist party, it is not believed that it has received money recently from Russia. I can add nothing to my recent replies with regard to legislation to prevent the importation of money for propaganda purposes.
    Sir F. HALL: Do we understand that the Government practically shuts its eyes to the importation of money from foreign countries, which is undoubtedly used for the purpose of inciting trouble in our own country?
    Mr. SHORTT: I do not know what my hon. Friend understands.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that what we desire to find out is what the Government understand, and does he recognise the difficulty we have in getting replies?

    JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a sentence of 6 strokes with the birch, to be followed later by a further 6 strokes, imposed upon a boy of 9 years of age by a justice of the Grimsby bench; and whether, in view of the probability that this child is suffering from some mental or moral defect, he will introduce legislation making it obligatory to submit such children to examination by mental experts in order that in future juvenile delinquency may be treated in a more reformative manner?
    Mr. SHORTT: Yes. My attention was called to the case and I decided to advise the remission of the second sentence. I am informed that the county medical officer who examined the child recently is of opinion that he is a moral imbecile and is endeavouring to arrange for his admission to a suitable institution. Courts have power to order a medical examination, and in a recent circular to magistrates I called attention to the importance of exercising this power in cases of juvenile delinquency.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: In these cases where magistrates order birching, would it not be possible to ensure that the magistrates who give the order should be present at the birching? Would not that act as a check?
    Mr. SHORTT: It would have to be considered, certainly.

    BOY SCALERS.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the work of boy scalers or scurfers on ships in port is not covered by the Factory and Workshop Acts, and that therefore no medical certificate of fitness for the work is required, and having regard to the fact that the work is unhealthy, being carried on in cramped positions in the boilers and in the bilges of ships on days when they are considered too hot for men to enter them, and that the boys of 14 to 17 years of age at times work overtime and occasionally all night, and that the employment is of a casual nature, and that provisions for the welfare of the boys by the supply of protective clothing, etc., are not common, he will extend the Factory Acts to cover this work, whether carried on in ships, in dry dock, wet dock, river, or any harbour?
    Mr. SHORTT: My attention has not previously been called to this matter, which is, in the main, outside the jurisdiction of my Department. I shall be happy to make inquiries and consider the suggestion of the Noble Lord, if he will be good enough to let me have the particulars on which his question is founded.

    UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
    Lieut.-Colonel HILDERasked the Prime Minister in view of the fact, which

    827
    is frequently coming to light during proceedings in the police courts, that the unemployment dole has the effect in many cases of encouraging idleness, can the Government, in conjunction with the local government authorities, devise means by which some form of work can be exacted in return for the payments made under this head?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): I have been asked to reply. We have taken every care to deal with cases of abuse brought to light by police court proceedings or otherwise, but in the present state of industry the recipients of unemployment benefit are unavoidably idle, except in a small number of cases. As an evidence of the care taken to see that funds, urgently needed for people unemployed through no fault of their own, shall not be dissipated by improper use, I may say that during the period 3rd March to 13th May, some 90,000 doubtful claims were referred to the chief insurance officer, who disallowed over 60,000. In about 13,000 of these cases, appeal was made to Courts of Referees, who allowed benefit in about 5,000 cases. Again, out of 935,500 cases dealt with under Section 3 of the 1921 Act—the Emergency Section—27,000 were rejected by the Employment Exchanges, and 345,000 doubtful cases were dealt with by the Local Employment Committees, who disallowed some 41,000, and allowed benefit for the full period in 175,000 cases for less than the full period in 129,000 cases.
    Mr. J. JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to speed up the machinery, so that the men may not be kept waiting five weeks for benefit?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I can assure my hon. Friend we will do all we can, but the numbers now are overwhelming, and the staff is very heavily worked.

    CONVERSION LOAN.
    Mr. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of stock exchanged into the Conversion Loan?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): The approximate amount of National War Bonds (face value) converted into the 3½ per cent. Loan is £148,000,000.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the hardship that falls on old age pensioners by reason of the fact that casual sources of income, such as gifts from friends, former employers, and the like, have to be brought into account for calculating their means; and whether, if he is not prepared to adopt the drastic steps of abolishing the means limit, he will take steps to remove the hardships above indicated?
    Mr. YOUNG: My right hon. Friend fears that he cannot add anything to his statement of the 11th instant on this subject on the Motion of the right hon. Member for the Widnes Division (Mr. A. Henderson).
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this very necessary reform would cost very little?

  POST OFFICE.

    POSTAL RATES (INCREASE).
    Mr. CLOUGHasked the Postmaster-General if he can state the branches of his administration on which a profit is made and those on which there is a loss; and whether he will, in each case, give the figures of profit or loss?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Kellaway): It is estimated that on the basis of the commercial accounts, the year 1920–21 will show in round figures a surplus of £900,000 on postal services, a deficit of £4,000,000 on the telegraphs, and a deficit of £4,200,000 on the telephones.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: If the Post Office postal work be already showing a balance on the right side, why is it necessary to increase the postal charges?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I have to treat the accounts as a whole. The aim of the Government is to see that this serious deficit, which existed last year, is wiped out in the current year.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Will he consider whether, instead of increasing the postal charges, he can be content with the saving effected by the Sunday closing?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: No that would still leave the Post Office with a deficit of nearly £2,750,000.
    Sir F. HALL: Is not the loss on telegraphs and telephones likely to be made up by the reduction in the number of postcards, owing to the increased charge on them?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: Allowance is made for that possible falling off, in the statement that has been made to the House, but as far as defending the details of the proposals is concerned, it would much better be done in my statement on the Estimates next week.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that if we wait until the Post Office Vote comes on, the alterations will be actually in operation, and it will be impossible for anything to be done, and cannot he consider the question of not increasing the postcards from 1d. to 1½ d.?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: No.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That was asked, and answered the other day.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GOREasked the Postmaster-General what is the estimated increased revenue which he expects to obtain from the increases of charge for inland postcards, inland printed matter, foreign letter postage, and foreign printed matter, respectively; what is the estimated saving expected from the abolition of Sunday post; what steps are being taken to reduce the number of the staff employed by the Post Office and whether steps will be taken to revise existing mail contracts with railway and shipping companies with a view to reducing costs?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: The estimated increase in a full year from inland postcards is, in round figures, £1,000,000; from inland printed matter, £1,000,000; from foreign and Colonial letters, £100,000; from foreign and Colonial printed matter, £300,000. The estimated saving from the abolition of Sunday posts is £1,000,000, of which about £900,000 will be immediately realisable. As regards the last two points in the question, I will make a statement on the Post Office Estimates next week.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman anticipate a falling off in the use of postcards, and therefore a reduction in revenue?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: That has been taken into account, as I have already explained.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Why do you not raise the charge for postcards to eighteen pence, and pay off the National Debt?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: Because I am afraid all the Members of the House do not have the same national passion for thrift as my hon. and learned Friend.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GOREasked the Postmaster-General whether he has received representations as to the serious effect of the proposed increase in charges for the prepayment of postage on newspapers, trade circulars, and purely printed matter to places abroad upon the trade recovery and the distribution of British news; and whether he will reconsider this part of his proposals for balancing the Post Office accounts, if necessary, by increasing the charge on ordinary foreign correspondence by another ½d. per ounce?
    Captain W. BENNasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the effect of the new charges on the foreign circulation of trade journals and catalogues, and the diminution of our export trade which will follow any curtailment of the circulation of such matter, he will reconsider his proposals?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I regret that it should have been necessary to increase the postage on newspapers, circulars, and printed matter for places abroad; but this class of correspondence forms one of the most unremunerative of the Post Office services, and I fear that it is impossible to reconsider the rates at present. The addition of ½d. to the foreign letter rate would yield about £70,000 per annum, as compared with £300,000, which the increase in the foreign printed paper rate is estimated to produce. As I have already indicated, the question of reducing rates of postage will be considered as soon as the financial position of the Post Office makes such a course practicable.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that by this increase in foreign printing rates we are very hardly hit by America and other countries, which compete with trade circulars and other methods of advertising, and whose postage has not been raised?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I am fully alive to the natural advantage of increasing any means of propaganda abroad in the interests of British trade, but I think that it should be done frankly and openly by a Vote of the House and not by a concealed subsidy in the Post Office Estimates.
    Captain BENN: Was there not a Committee which investigated this question and made recommendations?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I stand by the statement I have made.
    Sir C. YATE: Instead of raising the postal rates to pay for the telephones, could not the right hon. Gentleman hand the telephones over to some company who could run them at a profit?
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Postmaster-General whether the present postage rate from the United States to this country is 2 cents for letters; whether this rate will be increased under the new Regulations; and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: The present rate of postage on letters from the United States of America for this country is 2 cents for each ounce or fraction of an ounce. The United States Post Office has not yet notified any increase in this rate.
    Mr. GILBERT: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information that the United States Government are imposing any increased rates?

    Country.

    Date of Introduction.

    Letters.

    Postcards.

    Printed Papers per 50 grammes.

    First 20 grammes.

    Each additional 20 grammes.

    France—

    New rates

    …

    …

    1 April, 1921

    …

    50 c.

    25 c.

    30 c.

    10 c.

    Previous rates

    …

    Pre-War

    …

    25 c.

    15 c.

    10 c.

    5 c.

    Belgium—

    New rates

    …

    …

    1 March, 1921

    …

    50 c.

    25 c.

    30 c.

    10 c.

    Previous rates

    …

    Pre-War

    …

    25 c.

    15 c.

    10 c.

    5 c.

    Germany—

    New rates

    …

    …

    1 April, 1921

    …

    1 mark 20 pf

    60 pf.

    80 pf.

    30 pf.

    Previous rates

    …

    1 May, 1920

    …

    80 pf.

    60 pf.

    40 pf.

    20 pf.

    Previous rates

    …

    Pre-War

    …

    20 pf.

    10 pf.

    10 pf.

    5 pf.

    WAGES AND SALARIES.
    Sir CHARLES OMANasked the Postmaster-General what were the total net receipts, and the total sum spent on wages and salaries, of the Post Office in the financial years 1913–14 and 1920–21, respectively?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I have no information.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Have not the United States adopted the opposite policy, in order to develop their trade?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I think there may be something in that, but it is a question whether it is better to do it by a concealed subsidy, or a frank and open Vote of the House in favour of propaganda.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is not the policy which has been adopted to be found in the old Book, which says, "He that scattereth increaseth."
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Postmaster-General what will be under the new Regulations the weights and rates of postage for letters, postcards, and printed matter to this country from France, Belgium, and Germany; if these rates have recently been increased in each country; and, if so, to what extent?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I will circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. GILBERT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if other countries propose to increase their rates in the same way as we are doing?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: Other countries are certainly increasing their rates, and I shall be glad to issue a statement showing the increase in our rates as compared with those of foreign countries.
    Following is the reply promised:
    Mr. KELLAWAY: The net revenue (including the value of free services to other Government Departments), and the corresponding expenditure on salaries and wages, for the years in question are as follows:

    833

    —

    Revenue.

    Expenditure on salaries and wages.

    £

    £

    1913–14

    32,783,000

    15,730,000

    1920–21

    58,178,000

    45,000,000

    I have quoted the figures from the Commercial Accounts, because these alone give the proper comparative basis. To make up the total wages bill of the Post Office it would be necessary to add certain items amounting in all to £1,500,000 in 1913–14 and £4,400,000 in 1920–21, which are chargeable to capital or are recovered from the Savings Bank Fund. The figures for 1920–21 are approximate. They include about £27,000,000 for War bonus out of the total of £49,400,000.
    Sir C. OMAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the origin of his deficit in the contrast between 32 and 15, and between 38 and 45?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: Yes; I have seen hardly anything else since I became Postmaster-General.
    Sir C. OMAN: Would the right hon. Gentleman do something to make these proportions of salaries to accounts approach to what they were before the War?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: In this particular branch of the work the Post Office is controlled by an arrangement which has been come to affecting the whole of the Civil Service. Under that arrangement War bonus is at present reviewed at a six-monthly interval. That undoubtedly gives an advantage to the Post Office staff and the rest of the Civil Service. But it has to be remembered that, while at present they have the benefit of that arrangement, they were far behind during the War period in keeping up with the rise of prices and the cost of living.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that his policy of "robbing Peter to pay Paul" is going to have the desired effect of making up this deficit?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I hope to pay Peter without robbing Paul.

    MENTAL HOSPITALS.
    Colonel NEWMANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that under the Local Government Act of 1888 an Exchequer grant is made of 4s. per patient in mental hospitals; whether, although the cost of maintenance has largely increased, the grant has not been increased; and has he received representations from boards of guardians and mental hospitals associations on the subject?
    Mr. YOUNG: Yes, Sir. In this connection I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given to the hon. and learned Member for York on the 18th March last, of which I am sending him a copy.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
    Mr. MALLALIEUasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now in a position to make a statement as to the liability of clubs and societies to the Entertainments Duty if they have informal sing-songs amongst the members will he say whether the fact of members watching a game of billiards or other game renders the club or society liable to the tax; and, if so, was this the intention of the Government when the Entertainments Duty was imposed?
    Mr. YOUNG: I am unable to add anything to the general reply which I gave to the hon. Member on the 12th instant. Inquiry is being made regarding the letters of which he has sent my right hon. Friend copies, and he will communicate with him as soon as possible.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: Can the hon. Gentleman give me any indication when the reply will be given?
    Mr. YOUNG: Inquiries are certainly being pressed forward.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: May I put it to the hon. Gentleman that there is a great deal of interest taken in this matter in the country?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. HOPEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Board of Customs and Excise are demanding Entertainments Duty on the subscriptions of all members of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society, and refusing to accept

    835
    the Duty only on vouchers issued to members which alone give admission to the show, though this course was recommended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in August, 1919, and allowed by the Board of Customs and Excise during 1919?
    Mr. YOUNG: My right hon. Friend is having inquiry made, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Sir J. HOPEasked whether the same conditions as to payment of Entertainments Duty apply to admission to the shows of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society as apply to those of the Royal Horticultural Society?
    Mr. YOUNG: Entertainments Duty is payable in respect of an "entertainment" as defined by Section 1 (6) of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, unless the Commissioners of Customs and Excise be satisfied that the entertainment comes within one of the statutory exemptions in Section 1 (5) of the Act. The Commissioners are so satisfied in respect of the shows of the Royal Horticultural Society, but not in respect of the shows of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society.
    Sir J. HOPE: Will the hon. Gentleman say in what particular respect it is considered that the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society cannot be exempted while the Royal Horticultural Society is exempted—whether it is because the latter has an educational and scientific course and the former not; or whether it is because of the extraneous amusements that are at the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society's shows, and not at those of the Royal Horticultural Society?
    Mr. YOUNG: I cannot say at the moment whether the circumstances mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend are or are not involved; the matter depends on varying circumstances. But the one society gives its shows in connection with a process or causes of education, and my information is that those of the Scottish society do not.
    Sir J. HOPE: Would the hon. Gentleman advise the secretary of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society how he can conform with the requirements as in the case of the English society?
    Mr. YOUNG: Undoubtedly all the information at my disposal or at the dis-
    836
    posal of His Majesty's Customs will be at the service of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society.

    MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (EXPENSES).
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, according to ancient practice, Members of Parliament were paid, but that their payment was limited to the period during which they attended to their Parliamentary duties in London; and that a considerable number of Members frequently or habitually absent themselves from attendance at Westminster during the Sittings of the House; and whether there are any theoretical or practical objections to paying Members only such part of their salary as is proportionate to the number of days on which they attend the House?
    Mr. YOUNG: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the remainder of the question, I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the reply given by the Leader of the House on the 13th May, in which he stated that, having regard to the many and varied duties that fall on Members of the House, he did not consider the course proposed would be practicable.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the hon. Gentleman represent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is not right that you should give payment to people who do not do any work for it?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Would it not be much better to pay Members for every day they stay away?
    Sir M. DOCKRELL: Does not the hon. Gentleman know that there existed in the past a class of jurymen called "guinea-pigs," who used to be always hanging round to earn a guinea, and are Members of this House to be reduced to that?
    An HON. MEMBER: It is very like it now.

    WAR PENSIONS (TRAINING BONUS).
    Mr. ALFRED DAVIESasked the Minister of Pensions whether any definite decision or ruling has yet

    837
    been given to war pensions committees with regard to the payment of bonus to trainees who have undergone a course of training on the termination of sanatorium treatment for tuberculosis?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Macpherson): Instructions will be given to the Regional Offices as soon as the necessary arrangements have been made with the Ministries of Health and Labour.

    HOME-GROWN SUGAR COMPANY.
    Mr. WISEasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the Value of the Kelham sugar factory what is the capital of the company; who holds the capital; and who holds the first debentures?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): The value of the property of the Home-grown Sugar Company, including the factory, estate, farm stock, etc., as ascertained on 31st March last, is £447,659 0s. 10d. I will furnish my hon. Friend with the items in detail if he so desires. The authorised share capital of the company is £1,000,000. Shares to the amount of £500,000 have been issued, of which £498,415 15s. has been paid up. As regards the third part of the hon. Member's question, the list of shareholders comprises between 500 and 600 names. This list, together with other official records of the company, can be inspected at Somerset House. With regard to the last part of the question there are no first debentures. The company is, however, negotiating a first mortgage of £75,000 which it is proposed shall be secured on its property.
    Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERY: Is the policy of the right hon. Gentleman's Department to promote the growth of sugar beet in this country?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I explained that matter fully on the Vote. I may say that the Government have taken 250,000 shares in this company, for the purpose of carrying out experiments on a first-rate standard.
    Mr. WISE: When is a dividend expected on these ordinary shares?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The dividend will be paid half-yearly.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: As the Government have guaranteed 5 per cent. for 10 years on the shares, is it not a fact that the money will have to be paid by the State out of the national Exchequer?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The Government have guaranteed 5 per cent. on the shares for 10 years.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Is it not a fact that the Government will have to pay that money?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Until the factory actually gets to work, I think that is the case, but I have every reason to believe that the company will be successful once it is started.
    Mr. WISE: Is it possible for the Government to take the first charge, instead of the second charge?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: This House has already agreed that the Government shall take the second charge.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that almost in the overwhelming opinion of the farming community of that district that estate will never be fit for sugar growing?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I think my hon. and gallant Friend should raise these questions on the Estimates.

PRIVILEGE ("PLAIN ENGLISH NEWSPAPER").
The following Notice of Motion appeared on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. Neil Maclean:
"That the editor and publisher of the 'Plain English Newspaper' do attend at the Bar of this House, at four of the clock on Thursday the 2nd day of June, to answer in that he or they has or have written and published articles in that paper imputing corruption and breach of trust to Members of this House, the articles complained of constituting a gross breach of the privileges of this House."
Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: On a point of Order. With regard to the Notice of Motion standing in my name on the Paper, I wish to ask a question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] My question is regarding the articles which have been published in the paper named reflecting upon certain Cabinet Ministers. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that from the

839
position which my Motion occupies on the Order Paper, it will not be taken until the other business has been disposed of. I take it from the Standing Orders that a question of privilege has precedence over all other public business, and I wish to ask whether I am right in my interpretation of the Standing Order, and whether I shall be permitted to move this Motion before any other public business comes before the House this afternoon?
Mr. SPEAKER: Before a question of privilege can be raised, in interruption of the ordinary business of the House, it requires to satisfy two conditions. One is that it is instantly raised as soon as possible after the alleged breach has been made, and the second is that the interposition of the House is necessary for the protection of its dignity. The hon. Member's motion fails on both points. It has not been raised instantly, and it certainly, in my view, cannot be a protection of the dignity of the House to raise this matter now. The hon. Member referred to the matter two months ago by means of questions to Ministers, and, if I remember rightly, his complaint then was that certain Ministers of the Crown had not taken action. That is not a question of privilege of the whole House, because the Courts are open if it be necessary to use them.
Mr. MACLEAN: My complaint is to the effect that any question which affects, not merely the dignity of the House, and the dignity of a Member, but which is likely to conflict with the honour of this House is a matter of privilege. With regard to the other point of immediate action being taken, this paper has continued these articles, and even in its most recent issue has repeated the allegations made against Cabinet Ministers These allegations are to the effect that in the business relating to the affairs of the office that they hold, they have been guilty of actions of which no Member of this House, and certainly no Cabinet Minister, should be considered guilty, or even think of. In these circumstances I ask you again, Mr. Speaker, if it is not within the interpretation of the Standing Order that this matter—even if the allegations had been continued for a period of three months, and been made in the most recent issue of the paper, and con-
840
sidering that it impugns the honesty and the motives of Ministers of the Crown who are responsible to this House is brought within the scope of a motion of privilege.
Mr. SPEAKER: No, I do not take that view. If the persons referred to in the articles think it worth their while, they have their remedy open to them, and it is not for the House to intervene.
Mr. MACLEAN: But if Ministers of the Crown, who are accused of doing certain things which one would consider even in private life to be dishonest, refuse to take action—if those individuals as Members of this House refuse to take action, even although the articles appear in a small paper, does it not then become, according to May in his "Parliamentary Practice," as well as according to Standing Orders, the duty of this House to see to it, either by instructing them, or by the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the matter, that the persons concerned do take action?
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. Member has gone quite far enough into what is stated in May. If he will read page 242, as well as page 240, he will see that a Motion in such a case must satisfy the condition that it involves the dignity of the House. That does not apply to an individual in the House. This certainly does not satisfy that condition.
Mr. MACLEAN: Does not May, on the same page, state that it must not only satisfy that condition, but also that it must be done in the transaction of business and do not Ministers who are alleged to have been guilty of certain actions in the transaction of their business as Members of the Cabinet come within the Section?
Mr. SPEAKER: No; in my opinion, it does not apply to a case of this sort.
Mr. J. JONES: May I ask, seeing that obscure Socialist newspapers have been prosecuted for making attacks on the Constitution and those who represent it, why this Noble Lord is to be allowed to escape scot free?

CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
Mr. MACQUISTEN: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in

841
order to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the refusal of the Government to permit this House to discuss the existence of an unconstitutional body—the Liquor Control Board."
I am sure I shall have the almost unanimous support of the House in putting this question.
Viscountess ASTOR: No.
Mr. MACQUISTEN: With the exception, perhaps, of the hon. Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), who, of course, does not wish to discuss it.
Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a Motion which properly comes within the Standing Order. In the first place, it is not a question of urgency. We have had it before us a good long while. In the second place, a Motion to discuss the refusal of an opportunity to debate this question would open the door to Motions for Adjournment every day by hon. Members who would like to have business put down other than that which is put down under the Standing Orders. It is for the Government to arrange the business of the House, subject, of course, to Standing Orders under which it may be interrupted. In these circumstances, I cannot accept the Motion.
Mr. MACQUISTEN: But has not the Government received a request signed by 170 Members for the discussion of this matter, and do you, Sir, ever remember in the history of Parliament a discussion having been refused in such circumstances? Is it not unprecedented?
Mr. SPEAKER: I am not here to be catechised, but I think I can remember an occasion when the Government received a request signed by 300 Members for the discussion of a particular subject.

CORN SALES BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 123.]

TITHE ANNUITIES APPORTIONMENT BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 124.]

CARDIFF GAS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PROTECTION OF ANIMALS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1912) AMENDMENT BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next.

INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Second Report from the Standing Joint Committee brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Consolidation Bills: That they propose that the Joint Committee appointed to consider Consolidation Bills do meet in Committee Room C on Wednesday, 1st June, at Twelve o'clock.
Lords Message considered.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[Lieut.-Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Dentists Bill): Mr. Acland, Mr. Bartley Denniss, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Mr. Hartshorn, Lieut.-Colonel Hurst, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Lindsay, Major Molson, Sir Alfred Mond, Mr. Munro, Captain O'Grady, Mr. Pratt, Sir Thomas Robinson, Sir William Whitla, and Sir Kingsley Wood.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Mr. Galbraith and Colonel Penry Williams; and had appointed in substitution: Dr. Murray and Mr. Raffan.

  STANDING COMMITTEE D.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Guardianship, etc., of Infants Bill): Viscountess Astor, Sir John Baird, Mr. Cairns, Mr. Cowan, Sir Henry Cowan, Mr. Evan Davies, Colonel Greig, Major Hills, Mr. Inskip, Mr. Lawson, Captain Loseby, Dr. Murray, Mr. Raper, Sir Ernest Pollock, and Mr. C. D. Murray.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee D: Mr. Hurd; and had appointed in substitution: Major William Murray.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  WAYS AND MEANS [11TH MAY]

    SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.
    Resolutions reported,
    (1) That for a period of five years from the passing of an Act for giving effect to this Resolution there shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland a Customs Duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:—

    (a) Optical glass and optical elements, whether finished or not, microscopes, field and opera glasses, theodolites, sextants, spectroscopes, and other optical instruments;

    (b) Beakers, flasks, burettes, measuring cylinders, thermometers, tubing, and other scientific glassware and lamp-blown ware, evaporating dishes, crucibles, combustion boats, and other laboratory porcelain;

    (c) Galvanometers, pyrometers, electroscopes, barometers, analytical and other precision balances, and other scientific instruments, gauges, and measuring instruments of precision of the types used in engineering machine shops and viewing rooms, whether for use in such shops or rooms or not;

    (d) Wireless valves and similar rectifiers, and vacuum tubes;

    (e) Ignition magnetoes and permanent magnets;

    (f) Arc-lamp carbons;

    (g) Hosiery latch needles;

    (h) Metallic tungsten, ferro-tungsten and manufactured products of metallic tungsten and compounds (not including ores or minerals) of thorium, cerium, and the other rare earth metals;

    (i) All synthetic organic chemicals (other than synthetic organic dyestuffs, colours and colouring matters imported for use as such, and organic intermediate products imported for their manufacture), analytic re-agents, all other fine chemicals and chemicals manufactured by fermentation processes;

    including any articles comprised in any list which may from time to time be issued by the Board of Trade for defining the articles which are to be taken as falling under any of the general descriptions set out above.
    (2) That there shall be charged on any of the following articles imported into Great Britain or Ireland, in addition to any other duties of Customs chargeable thereon, a Customs Duty of an amount equal to 33⅓ per cent. of the value of the article, that is to say:—
    868
    Articles of any class or description in respect of which an Order by the Board of Trade has been made under any Act of the present Session for giving effect to this Resolution, if manufactured in whole or in part in any of the countries specified in the Order, or deemed to be so manufactured.
    Any such Order as aforesaid may be made on the ground that articles of the class or description in question are being sold or offered for sale in the United Kingdom—

    (a) At prices below the cost of production thereof; or

    (b) At prices which, by reason of depreciation in the value in relation to sterling of the currency of the country in which the goods are manufactured, are below the prices at which similar goods can be profitably manufactured in the United Kingdom,

    and that by reason thereof employment in any industry in the United Kingdom is being or is likely to be seriously affected.
    For the purpose of this Resolution, "cost of production" in relation to goods of any class or description means the current sterling equivalent of—

    (a) The wholesale price at the works charged for goods of the class or description for consumption in the country of manufacture; or

    (b) If no such goods are sold for consumption in that country, the price which, having regard to the prices charged for goods as near as may be similar when so sold or when sold for exportation to other countries, would be so charged if the goods were sold in that country.

    First Resolution read a Second time.
    4.0 P.M.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a point of Order. May I respectfully request you, Sir, to indicate which Amendments you propose to call, and, particularly, whether you propose to call my Amendment to the first Resolution—to leave out the word "Ireland"? I raise the question because that Amendment was not taken in Committee.
    Mr. SPEAKER: No, I cannot do that. It remains to be seen whether I shall have to exercise my powers of selection under the Standing Order.
    Major BARNES: I beg to move to leave out the word "five" ["that for a period of five years"], and to insert instead thereof the word "three."
    I should like to congratulate the President of the Board of Trade upon his appearance this morning. Perhaps it is due to the fact that he has a long, strenuous Debate before him. Those of us

    869
    who felt constrained by our public duty to remain till the end last night are not so well equipped, but we shall do our best to join with him in ascertaining the full effect and force of the Resolutions before us. My Amendment is one limiting the period during which this Resolution shall have effect, and I am helped to this extent, that the period already is limited. It might have been that the Government were so convinced of the blessings of Free Trade that they were not disposed to place any limit upon the period during which they were to apply, and I might have been faced with the task of convincing the Government and the House that Protection was such an evil that it should be endured only for as short a time as possible. Fortunately that is not my burden. I have not the slightest doubt that there are some Members of the Government—the Leader of the House, for example—who are convinced that no period will be too long for this Resolution to have effect. Generally speaking, the Resolution is going through the House under protest. This House is not yet entirely Protectionist. In this quarter of it there is a very considerable body of Free Trade opinion, and the Government itself is still penetrated by a sufficient amount of that opinion to encourage me to believe that I may receive a considerable amount of support, not only from those who sit round about me, but also from those who sit in other quarters of the House and who are supporters of the Government.
    We ask that that which we consider to be a burden upon the whole of the community should not be continued for so long as five years, but should be limited to three years. What is the desire of this Resolution? It is, as far as I understand it, to give a kind of breathing space, a sort of sheltered area, in which these infant plants or key industries may be able to grow unexposed to the cold blasts of competition and Free Trade That is the object of the Resolution. It is a temporary protection not intended to continue. It is to be removed as soon as the plants approach anything like maturity. As soon as these industries are established on anything like a sound, economic basis, then this artificial aid is to be removed, and they are to rely upon their own stamina and vitality. The question before the House is how long
    870
    the period is to be. What period is necessary during which the general community should bear the burden of this Resolution in order that a very small section of it should enjoy the benefit. The very fact that the Government themselves have limited the period is an acknowledgment by them that this Resolution really imposes a burden or a tax upon the rest of industry and the rest of the community. If that were not so, they would not themselves have imposed any limitation of period.
    If we were now at a point when these industries scheduled in this Resolution were being first helped, five years might not be too long a period. I can well understand that every industry requires time. It has to choose its position, to erect its buildings, to find its plant, to develop its processes, and to find its market. All these things take time, and, if we were making an actual start, then, however much we disagree with the principle of this Resolution, the House having decided to give effect to it, we should not cavil at a period of five years We are not, however, in that position. We are at the end of a struggle, one of the effects of which was to bring these very industries into existence. The struggle lasted for a period of over five years, and it can hardly be said to be at an end. Technically, the War is still going on. Some two years, however, have passed since the Armistice, so that these particular industries have had a period of nearly seven years of the most intensive cultivation. They have been under conditions of forced growth. Everything that could help them and shelter the and advance them has been there.
    In an ordinary way, when an industry has to be started, there are difficulties in finding the necessary capital. We had a little illustration of that at Question Time to-day when it was seen that even an industry which has the support of the Government is finding difficulty in securing the capital that it requires. The conditions under which capital was obtained during the War for these key industries was simply phenomenal. They had no trouble of that kind at all. It is very difficult to discover the secrets of the Ministry of Munitions. All we know is that from the beginning of that Ministry to the end there has been a continual

    871
    stream of people who have been able to get from it resources with which to start one industry or another. Especially favourable terms have been given. I hesitate to quote examples, because it has almost been impossible to get the data, but it is common knowledge that a great many concerns were able during the War to wipe off the entire amount of capital that they had put into the development of their particular industry.
    Mr. KILEY: It was supplied by the Government.
    Major BARNES: As my hon. Friend says, it was supplied by the Government. There cannot be the slightest doubt that among those industries so favoured these key industries had a particular place. We therefore start from this point, that for a period of seven years under these favourable conditions these industries have been developed. The President of the Board of Trade now comes and asks us to give another period of five years, making 12 in all. I do not know what the President of the Board of Trade is going to say. I do not know whether he is going to say anything at all. It is very difficult to get the Government or their supporters to say anything in support of these Resolutions. As a matter of fact, during the whole course of the three Debates, I do not think that we have had a single word from the Lord Privy Seal upon this effort to establish Protection in this country. As far as I can recollect, the only words that he used were, "I move that the Question be now put." I do not know whether we are going to have any more of these utterances during the course of the present Debate. I suppose we must wait and see. I do, however, hope that on this, the last opportunity of considering these Resolutions, the Government will really treat the matter seriously and endeavour to give us some reasons for the demands which they are making. I can quite understand that, if the President of the Board of Trade should speak, he will say that what must be given to these industries is some certain and definite period in which they can lay their plans; that you cannot expect an industry to grow up in a period which is entirely uncertain, when it does not know from year to year how it is going to be treated by the Government. We recognise the
    872
    force of that, and it is one of the strongest grounds upon which we say that the Government should not interfere with industry at all, because, however it interferes, it is bound to introduce this element of uncertainty. Admitting the force of that in respect of the people who are engaged in these industries, I want to put the obverse side. If one looks at these Regulations, one finds that they are not exhaustive, they are not inclusive. Certain things are put down as being covered by the Resolution, but then there are general phrases. Paragraph (a), for example, sets out specifically a number of things, and then winds up with the words, "and other optical instruments." Paragraph, (b) ends with, "and other laboratory porcelain"; and so you can go right through the Resolution—"other rare earth metals," "other fine chemicals"; and it winds up by saying
    "Including any articles comprised in any list which may from time to time be issued by the Board of Trade. …"
    Could there be a greater element of uncertainty introduced into any measure than this? Articles are not specified; lists are not set out; times are not given. And it is to this uncertainty that this Resolution commits all those distributing agencies which are at the present time distributing the goods which may be brought within the scope of the Resolution. The Government only see the case from one side. They only think of the manufacturer—the person engaged in actually producing the goods; they think nothing of the agent, they think nothing of the merchant. And yet the effect of this Resolution is that no man engaged in the work of distribution, no man engaged in the import of these articles, can be certain that he may not wake up any morning to find that some list has been issued which imposes a 33⅓ per cent. tariff upon the goods in which he is dealing. The question of uncertainty, therefore, cuts both ways. If it is bad for the people who are supposed to be encouraged by these Resolutions, it is equally bad for those who certainly will be discouraged by them. On that ground we ask that the period of uncertainty shall be limited for both, and that, instead of five years, a term of three years should be inserted.
    We do not choose that term of three years in a merely arbitrary way. We do not say, "The Government has put down 'five'; what shall we say? Oh, well,

    873
    say 'three'." That is not the method we have employed. The Government themselves are dealing here with two Resolutions. In the first Resolution, dealing with key industries, they have taken a period of five years, while in the other Resolution, dealing with collapsed exchanges, they are taking a period of three years. Our desire is that the whole of their policy shall really hang together—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—that the protective practices which are characteristic of both Resolutions shall operate during the same period of time, and that the limit of three years—which, if it does not put an end to what is enacted in the second Resolution, will certainly ensure the revision of the policy—shall also bring the policy of the first Resolution within the consideration of the House and the country again. We ask the Government to give this Amendment serious consideration. We might have gone further and have asked that the period should have been a period simply of one year. There would have been good ground for doing that. When the duties known as the McKenna duties were imposed, they were imposed, not for a definite period like this, but as from year to year, ensuring their coming before this House and being considered at the end of that time. That is how matters stand. They come up before the House again in the present Budget. We might have asked with a good deal of force that the same thing should be applied here, and that these new taxes—because that is what they are, neither more nor less they are not put on for the purpose of raising revenue, and no revenue, I think, is expected from them they are put on for a special purpose—should come up annually for review. All that we ask, however, is that the Government should adopt a consistent policy in point of time, and that the period which they themselves have selected for dealing with collapsed exchanges shall also be the period adopted for dealing with key industries.
    Major HAYWARD: I beg to second the Amendment.
    In moving this Amendment my hon. and gallant Friend expressed a doubt as to whether we should get any reply from the President of the Board of Trade. I sincerely trust that his doubt is not well founded. I hope that the President will give us a good deal of information, not only upon this
    874
    point, but upon many other points which have not yet been made quite clear in connection with these Resolutions. In case the President is not going to accept this Amendment—although I hope he may—I should like to ask him upon what evidence or upon what information the particular period of five years has been arrived at. No doubt the matter has been carefully considered. This Resolution is the prelude to a Bill for safeguarding industries, and applies to what are known as key industries. Is it the right hon. Gentleman's information that everything is so beautifully synchronised that, at the end of five years, all these various industries will at one and the same moment have just emerged into a sufficient state of progress to be able to stand upon their own footing, and to be able to withstand what my hon. and gallant Friend called the cold blast of foreign competition? On the merits of the Amendment itself, it seems to me that there are two very good reasons why it should be accepted. So far as the industries themselves are concerned, surely, if the period is reduced from five years to three years, it will be an additional incentive to those industries to put more energy and resource and enterprise into the business of putting their house in order. Then there is what I profoundly believe to be the far greater consideration of the consumer—in this case the people who use these goods, and the people who rely upon these goods for their raw materials. We have all been inundated with circulars of one kind and another by the users of these goods, who tell us one and all that they will be gravely prejudiced if this Resolution becomes finally embodied in an Act of Parliament. It would be much better for the consumers if the period of time were reduced from five years to three years. They will know better where they are; they will be better able to make their arrangements for the future; and if at the end of the period these industries cannot produce the goods which are required, or cannot produce them of such a character and such a quality, or at such a price as the users, in this country require, then it will be very much better for the consumer that they shall be put back on the old basis at the end of the shorter rather than of the longer period.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: One can quite understand that those who are

    875
    in this privileged position will naturally want the period to be as long as possible, but the traders and the general public, and more particularly those traders who use the protected goods as the raw material of their industries, will be anxious that the period of protection shall be as limited as possible. If there is one thing which the trading world wants at the present time, it is, surely, rest and security against Government interference as far as possible. In my own part of the country, even men who in days gone by have been theoretically Tariff Reformers—many of them business men connected with large undertakings—have come round to this conclusion after the practical experience they have had during the War of enforced protection. That experience has disabused their minds of their theoretical fondness for protection, and they find, as business men, that the less they have of interference by Government or bureaucratic methods the better it is for their own particular industries. On these grounds I submit that the lesser period is infinitely preferable from the point of view of the broad interests of the country as a whole, and from the point of view of industrial magnates and their workers. Only last week I was rung up in my office by a firm in my constituency, who asked me in regard to the progress of this Bill. They were then negotiating a contract for material which they were going to buy from one of our Allies abroad, and they were anxious to fix it for a considerable period in order that they might find work—which is exceedingly scarce in our part of the country at the present time—for their mills, which employ a large number of men. They asked me, "When is this Bill going through? If it does go through, is it going to be retrospective, and are we safe in making this contract without the interference and uncertainty which the Bill will cause?" Of course, I was unable to say, as I am not a Member of the Government and am not in their confidences. The inquirer was a man who is opposed to me on political grounds, but he wanted freedom from interference by a Government Department which would cripple and handicap his work. Therefore, I appeal to the Government, if they are convinced that they must have some form of protection, if our trade in the past has done so badly that we are to depend upon this
    876
    spoon-feeding, that, at any rate, they should make the period of experiment as brief as possible, and that industries should not be handicapped unduly. In the interest of the trader particularly, and of the general public who want to get goods as cheaply as possible, without any 33⅓ per cent. more or less added on, I hope the Government will make their measure as little harmful as possible by reducing the period.
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Baldwin): With a great deal that has fallen from my hon. Friend (Mr. Thomson) I am in complete sympathy. Generally speaking, I dislike Government interference with business as much as anybody, and I agree with the implication in my hon. Friend's remarks that a great deal of the Government's undertakings in business during the War probably set back the nationalisation of industry in this country for a generation As far as that may be the case, I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that I am in cordial agreement with what he said. To come to the specific point raised by the Amendment, the hon. and gallant Member for East Newcastle (Major Barnes), who moved it, spoke of an arbitrary figure. Of course, in a way, any figure chosen for a period must be arbitrary. Three years is, and five years is, and I think also the one year which was moved during the Committee stage, and which apparently for the moment escaped the recollection of my hon. and gallant Friend. If my memory serves me, a period of one year was moved during the Committee stage, and was negatived on a Division. He spoke, and he spoke on the Committee stage too, about the peculiar industries that he called key industries as having already had a considerable run for their money during the War. But, of course, the position during the War was an extraordinary one in this way, that there was no competition of any kind, that in many cases experimental work had to proceed side by side with the execution of finished work, and some of the industries were aided by financial assistance, which, in many cases, has not yet been repaid to the Government by the firms which had advances for the purpose in hand.
    The object of fixing the period of five years, which I quite agree may be described as an arbitrary period, is that

    877
    that is a term of years which after very careful consideration we believe is long enough for any industry to prove that when it is not having special financial assistance, and when there will still be in some cases competition, those industries can so solidify their position and so perfect their experiments that they may be able to stand and flourish in free competition at the end of that period. If they are unable to do so I think it is very possible that the Government of the day five years hence may have to confess that the endeavours made by this Government to root in our soil industries that we believe to be essential have failed and it is very possible that no further attempt may be made. I think myself, having regard to the class of some of these industries and the complexity of them, a three years' term would not be sufficient to enable them to be in such a position, both with regard to their perfection of manufacture and with regard to their financial position, that they could be exposed to that full blast of competition which has been referred to with any chance of success. I admit once more that five years is an arbitrary term but when the question of dyes was before the House a period was fixed twice that length, a period of ten years, and I understand that that period was arrived at after consultation with Ministers in the administration before last, who were all strong theoretical Free Traders. We do not ask for anything like that period. I think myself, for the purpose in hand in regard to these key industries, ten years would be much too long, though I freely admit whatever time was mentioned in the Bill we should expect Amendments, not by way of lengthening it but by way of shortening it, and I think in specifying five years we have gone to the limit of what the industries may reasonably expect and we have not gone to that limit which was recommended three or four years ago when perhaps people approached all these problems in a sanguine spirit and with more generous imagination than they would to-day. I myself stand by the five years which we have thought fit for this purpose and I hope the House will confirm the Government in the selection of that period.
    Captain W. BENN: The right hon. Gentleman has really showed us that his mind is not working on the scheme which is alleged to be the basis of this Bill at all. He said, "those who are Free Traders
    878
    wanted this, but we on the other hand, want the other," and he is looking at this as a protective measure. He is not looking at it as a key industry measure at all, because the whole of his argument tended to show that this on the whole was the best and most reasonable compromise which could be made between hon. Members who did not want any protective tariff and industries which wanted a permanent protective tariff, and he said, "on the whole we think about five years is sufficient." But that is not the justification put forward by the Government for this Bill at all. The justification is that without this Bill we should find ourselves, if we were engaged in war, without the necessities for war. This Bill is not to protect this or that industry, however deserving it may be, or however much some hon. Members may think Protection is a good thing, but it is intended to safeguard key industries in the event of war, and on that point the right hon. Gentleman did not say a word. He went on inferentially to show that it was not the purpose of the Bill because he said, "there may perhaps at the end of the five years still be some competition in some of these industries." That was a sidelight on what was going to happen. But he went on to say, "perhaps in some cases they will fail and we shall find ourselves unable to implant in the soil of our country the roots of these new industries."
    But the whole case for the Bill is that it must not fail—that we cannot afford to allow these industries to die. The right hon. Gentleman says he is afraid this system in some cases may fail. Surely he has shown that it is not the right way to go to work. The fact of the matter is that everyone is clamouring to get inside this Protection. Every hon. Member has his post-bag full every morning. People declare that their key industry must be protected, and the definition of key industry is so wide that there is hardly a single article of manufacture which will not come within its scope, and the Government have thought that, on the whole, the best and most satisfying sop they dare give was a period of five years. There is this very peculiar point about five years, that it will enable a whole Parliament to intervene before the matter comes up for review. We have quinquennial Parliaments but very few Parliaments last five years, and it is

    879
    extremely probable that if this Bill is passed the matter will be settled until the Parliament after next. I think it would be very desirable that the matter should come up for review after the whole question has been thrashed out before the electors at the next Election. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite truly, that the traders greatly disliked Government control. It paralyses industry, interferes with profits and altogether kills the spirit of adventure, which is the life-blood of successful industry. It has got to be continued not, as I hope I have shown from the right hon. Gentleman's own speech, in the interest of military necessity but in the interest of certain classes of traders, and that being the case, I suggest that we should not give the advantage of this protection for any longer period at least than such period as will enable the whole matter to be reviewed when another Parliament comes to meet after having consulted the electors in reference to this matter.
    Sir GODFREY COLLINS: The President of the Board of Trade submitted two arguments in favour of his proposal. The first was that for seven years there was no competition in these industries, and all these trades needed time to build up their business in order to meet foreign competition in the future. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade was at the Ministry of Munitions during the War. Throughout the War the Government poured out money very readily in these trades, and the amount of money spent by the Government in the construction of factories, in experiment, in every attempt that human ingenuity could devise to produce a large, rapid, and efficient number of the articles mentioned in the Resolution was not grudged by the House of Commons or by the Department. Therefore I suggest that the main argument advanced by the Government, that the long war period was really not a period during which these trades could develop, is a strong argument in favour of the Amendment, and as during the War I was Chairman of the Sub-Committee of the National Expenditure Committee which examined into the finance of the Ministry of Munitions, I had very good opportunities of knowing that the Government and the Ministry did pour out large sums of money for extensions, for experiments, and for
    880
    scientific research in these industries. Therefore, these industries have already received very large sums of public money for the extension of their business. I do not deny that the nation during the period of the War received some considerable benefit from the outpouring of that money, but when the President of the Board of Trade asks the House to grant a further five years of high protection to these industries, I think he is asking the House to give a longer period than the necessities of the case demand. They have had already seven years of freedom from foreign competition, and the only difference between us and the Government is a period of two years. I submit that if this nation is anxious for the 50 articles mentioned in the Resolution to be highly developed for the next war; the best way we can encourage the production of these goods is to shorten the period to three years, and to allow these industries to face successfully, as I believe they will, foreign competition, and by that means absorb the best brains the Continent and America can offer, and, facing that competition, will be able in the future to manufacture a large number of the articles we require to enable this country to face her responsibilities in the future.
    Mr. FRANCE: I shall support the Amendment, because I think three years is not as bad as five. I should much more willingly support an Amendment to limit it to one year. I think three years is too long. I think perhaps the most definite argument the President of the Board of Trade advanced against this suggestion of possibly subsidising inefficiency in these industries during five years is the very fact that after seven years of complete immunity from competition they have to ask for this very heavy tariff to come to their assistance. I use the words "subsidising inefficiency" with some knowledge and some consideration. I should like to tell the President of the Board of Trade of an experience that I had in connection with a firm which is dealing with the Colonies in the export trade in textile goods—goods which have been either produced in Lancashire or the West Riding of Yorkshire—into which there comes very largely as part of their manufacture the element of dyes. Their experience is that since the protection which has been given to the dye industry, the difficulty which

    881
    these firms of textile manufacturers have in obtaining the best dyes, as they always used to be able to do, from any part of the world is that constantly they are having their goods refused by their buyers in the Colonies and other parts of the world, because the colours will not stand and the goods are nothing like as efficiently manufactured as before. It stands to reason that that sort of thing will happen if you protect in this artificial way industries which ought to be able to stand upon their own footing and, with proper scientific research, possibly assisted by the Government for a limited time, be able to fight the competition of the world. That is the only way in which British industry can fight the competition of the world and continue our export trade. I regret very much that for five years we are to have these industries helped to this extent and thus deprived of the very stimulating help of competition, and all that comes from competition, and with it real scientific research.
    Mr. KILEY: I want the House to realise what is before it. In the protection proposed in this Bill of certain industries for five years we have no assurance or guarantee that any one of these industries will rise to the needs of the situation. What assurance or guarantee have we that the commodities which are essential for carrying on the great trade of this country will be forthcoming, and that they will be forthcoming at such a price that will enable these trades to continue, and to continue our overseas trade? There is no assurance or guarantee, so far as I can gather, either in quality, quantity, or in price. Therefore, to give them protection for five years without any restriction or control by Parliament is taking a very drastic action. I can foresee the Government being confronted with a difficult situation at the end of three, four, or five years, with the possibility of these trades saying: "We have not been able, because we have not had sufficient capital, or for various other reasons, to make our way." I can foresee demands being made upon the Exchequer, as demands have been made in the past by the dye industry, sugar, and various other industries, which have come to the Government for assistance in order to prop up those industries. I think the President of the Board of
    882
    Trade has not fully realised what is before him, and before we agree to permit this House to give protection to these industries for so long a period we should demand some guarantee on the other side. Failing that, I shall certainly support the proposal for restricting the period to one or two years, or three years at the outside.
    Dr. MURRAY: I was glad to hear the President of the Board of Trade take some credit for signs of grace which he has shown on this occasion. He has told the House that they were wicked enough to put ten years in the Dyestuffs Bill, but that now they have reformed and have only put five years in this Bill. We desire that the Government should be reformed altogether and made as perfect as possible and, therefore, we desire to limit the period to three years in the Bill. Three years is fairer to everyone. There is no man so simple as to believe that this country or this House of Commons will agree to a prolonged period of Tariff Reform, although we have been subject to protection by instalments for the last two or three years. If you reduce the period to three years you will obviate the necessity of imposing upon those guileless people who are apt to be lulled into a false sense of security in thinking that they have all they want if you give them five years. In order not to impose upon these simple people it will be advisable to make them feel that they will only have three years in which to put their house in order, and that if they do not accomplish that they will get no help from this House. It is also fairer to the consumers of the various articles named in the schedule, and of the articles that are not named, that the period should be three years. Some of the articles that are not named and are yet included are perhaps more important than those that are named. People who want to use thermometers, barometers or microscopes, or who have to wear spectacles, ought to know how long they are to be compelled when they buy these articles to pay their share towards the cost of the next Armageddon. The people who use these articles are, to the extent of their purchases, relieving the country of the cost of providing for the next war. It is the people who buy such articles who are asked to pay for the next war.

    883
    It will be fairer also to a large number of the supporters of the Government. It is cruel the way the Government have treated the Prime Minister. They are making him swallow leek after leek. It is cruel the way they have made him abolish the land taxes, and one thing after another. He said that if a protectionist policy was pursued we should be living on chunks of brown bread in this country, and yet this Government, of which he is supposed to be the head, compels him to swallow his own words. It makes one's heart bleed to see this sort of thing being done. One wonders whether the worm will ever turn. Many Coalition Liberals would like to support the Government,
    but they cannot support them with full fervour if this sort of thing goes on. A number of them will support the Government anyhow, but there are some who are very uncomfortable. They make strong speeches, which are not always followed up by strong votes. I appeal to the Government to make it as easy as possible for these people to swallow these Resolutions. In the interests of the trade of the country it would be well to let the people concerned feel that the Resolutions are not to be a permanent part of our fiscal policy and, therefore, it is desirable that this Amendment should be accepted.
    Question put, "That the word 'five' stand part of the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 203 Noes, 81.

    Division No. 128.]

    AYES.

    [4.55 p.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Armitage, Robert

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Fildes, Henry

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Atkey, A. R.

    FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

    Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Forrest, Walter

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Matthews, David

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Gardiner, James

    Mitchell, William Lane

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Bigland, Alfred

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Gilbert, James Daniel

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Glyn, Major Ralph

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Morrison, Hugh

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

    Murchison, C. K.

    Briggs, Harold

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Brown, T. W. (Down. North)

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Bruton, Sir James

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Neal, Arthur

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Butcher, Sir John George

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Parker, James

    Casey, T. W.

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Pearce, Sir William

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Cheyne, Sir William Watson

    Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

    Percy, Charles (Tynemouth)

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

    Clough, Robert

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

    Pratt, John William

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Raeburn, Sir William H.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Remer, J. R.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Cope, Major William

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Jesson, C.

    Rodger, A. K.

    Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

    Jodrell, Neville Paul

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D.

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Dockrell, Sir Maurice

    Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Seddon, J. A.

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Kidd, James

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Wise, Frederick

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Townshend, Sir Charles V. F.

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Waddington, R.

    Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Woolcock William James U.

    Starkey, Captain John Ralph

    Waring, Major Walter

    Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Yeo, Sir Alfred William

    Stevens, Marshall

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Taylor, J.

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Winfrey, Sir Richard

    McCurdy.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Rae, H. Norman

    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hayward, Evan

    Rose, Frank H.

    Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

    Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

    Spencer, George A.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Spoor, B. G.

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Swan, J. E.

    Briant, Frank

    Irving, Dan

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Cairns, John

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Kennedy, Thomas

    Tootill, Robert

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Wallace, J.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Lunn, William

    Waterson, A. E.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

    Wignall, James

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Mallalieu, Frederick William

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Gillis, William

    Myers, Thomas

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Grundy, T. W.

    O'Grady, James

    Mr. G. Thorne and Mr. Neil

    Maclean.

    Mr. SPEAKER: Dr. Murray.
    Captain W. BENN: On a point of Order. There is an Amendment on the Paper, after the word "Ireland," to insert the words "not being articles manufactured in other parts of the British Empire." I venture to ask you whether, in passing over that Amendment, you have taken into account that in Committee the Government announced a piece of news to the House, namely, that under this scheme they intended to give a preference on these key industry products?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have taken all the facts into account.
    Dr. MURRAY: I beg to move, to leave out "33⅓," and to insert instead thereof "10."
    This, again, will make it much easier for Members on the Front Bench opposite, because some of them have gone against even a 10 per cent. in days gone by. The sudden addition of 33⅓ per cent. to the various kinds of articles that are mentioned in this Resolution will produce a very disturbing effect, not only upon the
    886
    manufacture of, but upon trade and commerce in, these articles, and I do submit that 33⅓ per cent. is far too much if there is to be any duty at all. The old tariff reformers were more reasonable than the new tariff reformers. The old tariff reformers, at the most, only proposed a tariff of 10 per cent. The Postmaster-General will bear me out, because some years ago he fought against 10 per cent., and although he fought against 10 per cent. in those days, I ask him on this occasion to vote for this Amendment. Ten per cent. has a classic ring about it. It was the percentage proposed by the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain and for it the present Leader of the House professes to have a filial regard. I like filial regards of that sort, and if the right hon. Gentleman were here at the moment, I would ask him to support us in, at any rate, this little way of showing a regard for the classic of tariff reform. This vulgar 33⅓ per cent., as it is to a man who has kept himself up, or nearly up, in the classical tradition of 10 per cent., is very distasteful, and it certainly is too much duty to put on all at once. And it

    887
    is not that percentage alone. A merchant who has got to pay 33⅓ per cent. more for spectacles which he sells to a customer will probably add not 33⅓, but 50 per cent., and in some cases 100 per cent., because on most of these optical goods the merchant charges a considerable amount of profit. Therefore, the people who, in their old age, have to buy spectacles, will have to pay perhaps double the amount for an inferior article If the trade of this country cannot safeguard itself behind a tariff wall of 10 per cent., against which the Postmaster-General raised his hands in holy horror 10 years ago, then there is no hope for it.
    Mr. MYERS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I desire to be associated with those on this side of the House who wish to restrict the operation of this Resolution in any shape or form whatever. I am one of those who believe that all protective duties ultimately are paid by the consumer, and, whatever imposition is levied upon the various articles specified in these Resolutions, in the last resort the penalty will fall upon those who have to use these particular articles and commodities. The opposition to these duties has been presented from two points of view. I have heard it urged that it is desired by the Government to impose these duties upon these particular articles for the purpose of ensuring a supply of the necessary articles in preparation for the next war. If that is so, if the House means what it says in this matter, it should vote down these Resolutions, in order to prevent that possibility arising. On the other hand, it is presented that these duties are necessary for the purpose of safeguarding key industries. I will leave the region of argument and enter into the arena of facts, which are such that many of these industries specified in these Resolutions do not need any safeguarding, and are quite capable of looking after themselves. I want to submit to the House a record of one or two of these particular industries, and indicate as far as possible their ability to look after themselves, having regard to the results of their undertakings. I find that, in the case of the Welsbach Light Company, the price of their shares in 1914 was 7s. 6d. The highest price those shares reached in 1919 was 75s. 4d., and, even while there has been some reduction since,
    888
    at the end of December, 1920, the price of their shares was 42s. 6d. If we take Curtis's & Harvey, manufacturers of "Ironclad" gas mantles, the price of their shares in 1914 was 19s., and in December, 1919, it had reached 54s. The dividend in 1913 was 10 per cent., and in 1916 20 per cent., so at least there are two concerns which, I repeat, are well able to attend to their own interests, having regard to the results of their undertakings.
    Mr. BALDWIN: That is exactly why they are left out of the Bill.
    Mr. MYERS: The Resolutions, I suggest, apply to the particular articles such as are manufactured by these undertakings. We will take the General Electric Company, who manufacture Osram lamps, and the Resolution, again, I submit, provides for protecting the manufacture of these particular articles in this country.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): No.
    Mr. MYERS: The articles manufactured by these concerns, and the raw materials involved, all come within these Resolutions. The General Electric Company, manufacturers of the Osram lamp, in 1914 paid a dividend of 10 per cent., and in 1918, 10 per cent. plus a bonus of 50 per cent., so that that undertaking is getting along well. The Edison Swan Electric and Tungsten Arc Lamps Company, before providing for excess profits in 1915, had total profits of £14,146, and in 1918, £115,438. The old ordinary shareholders received 7½ per cent. bonus after re-organisation of capital. If the details of these particular organisations are not considered sufficient, we can give a general argument which covers the whole field of these electrical fittings undertakings from the Stock Exchange Year Book. In the 1918 Electrical Advertisement section there appears this quotation:
    "At no previous period in the history of the British electrical industry has there been such a widespread spirit of confidence as exists to-day. The War has left electrical manufacturing in a far stronger position than it occupied in August, 1914. Electricity was not only an industry of national importance, but was one of the vital key industries, and so it will always remain."
    And as a vital key industry, an effort is being made under these Resolutions to give it support which it does not need. It is doing well in existing circum-

    889
    stances, and any artificial protection that it receives will only enable the undertakings still further to plunder the community in the future. Now these Resolutions I see make reference to the chemical industries. Here, again, the same tale has to be told. Evans, Sons, Lescher and Webb, fine chemical and drug manufacturers, paid in 1913 a dividend of 5 per cent., free of tax; in 1914, 10 per cent.; in 1915, 15 per cent.; in 1916, 12½ per cent.; in 1917, 10 per cent.; in 1918, 12½ per cent.; and in 1919, 150,000 ordinary shares, at 50s. per share, were issued by that undertaking. Brunner, Mond and Company, who are engaged in the production of alkaline and other chemicals, had a paid-up capital in 1914 of just over £3,000,000. In 1918 it was over £9,000,000, and the dividends during the War averaged 12½ per cent., and bonuses were given in addition. Take the United Alkaline Company. Their shares on 30th July, 1914, were worth 5s. 3d. each, and in 1919, 30s. In 1913 they paid no dividend, and in 1919 they paid 15½ per cent. The Bradford Dyers' Association, users of dyes, in 1914 paid 5 per cent.; in 1917, 17½ per cent. The price of the shares in July, 1914, was 22s. 3d., and in October, 1919, was £2 10s. The price of the shares of the British Cotton and Wool Dyers in 1914 was 3s. 1d., and October, 1919, 13s. 9d., and the dividend jumped from 5 to 10 per cent. The shares of the Bleachers' Association jumped from 17s. 2d. to 34s. between 1914 and 1918. The Yorkshire Dyeware and Chemical Company paid a dividend in 1914 of 4 per cent., and by 1917–18 the dividends had jumped to 35 per cent., with various rates in between. The Yorkshire Indigo and Scarlet Colour Dyers paid 5 per cent. in 1914, 10 per cent. in 1917, and 10 per cent. in 1918, plus 50 per cent. bonus free of tax. So I could go on. I have a budget of them if the House desires to hear any more. These concerns are evidently well able to look after themselves, and these protective duties all: strengthen the monopoly that these concerns at present hold and add to their capacity further to bleed the community out of the goods they make, and from these points of view alone, if any protection is required, it is not the protection of the dividends of these undertakings, but protection of the consuming community of the country.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I am obliged to the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Mr. Myers) for his speech, because when the House comes to analyse it, it affords complete justification for the whole of the proposals that are being put before the House. An analysis of the examples which he gives answers any arguments put forward against the duties which we propose and shows how careful the Government have been to distinguish between those industries which need this protection in the national interests and those which we have wisely decided to leave outside. The case of the gas mantle companies was presented with perhaps natural reiteration when these Resolutions were before the Committee, and if the hon. Member had been present he would have appreciated that the gas mantle industry is not included among the key industries, and the two firms which he has quoted are solely manufacturers of gas mantles. He also said that the electric lamp industry could very well look after itself. I am not sure that I will go as far as that, because I think that it is going to be faced with serious and severe competition, but it is an industry which we had to consider very carefully and it is not included among the key industries. Then he gave an example of a firm which during the War had done well, Evans, Sons, Lescher and Webb, as an example of why we ought not to protect the fine chemical industry. The hon. Member will be surprised to know that that firm so far from being in its main business a manufacturer of fine chemicals is a firm of wholesale druggists who make their money out of selling the fine chemicals manufactured by other people. Then he cited two other great undertakings as instances why we ought not to protect the fine chemical industry—the case of Brunner Monds and the United Alkali Company. Neither of those firms are manufacturers of fine chemicals. They are both great manufacturers in the heavy chemical industry in this country. That industry we admit is well established in this country and for this reason in this Resolution we draw an explicit distinction between the fine chemical industry which is not so established and requires to be established and the heavy chemical industry which is well established.
    The hon. Member also explained to us that the firms which had been great users of dyes had managed to make large pro-

    891
    fits. I agree, and hope that they will go on making profits, but surely the fact that the users of dyes are still able to make substantial profits is a complete answer to the suggestion that if you protect an industry like the dye industry you will ruin the people who use dyes. I have said enough to show that the Government have given careful consideration to all these matters, and have been cautious to see that no industries are included which are able to stand on their own feet. The real question is whether, as regards the industries which are included, the duty ought to be 10 per cent. or 33⅓ per cent. The hon. Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) in a very delightful speech twitted the Postmaster-General (Mr. Kellaway) with his sudden allegiance to 33⅓ per cent. Whatever he may have done in other days, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Kellaway) has just succeeded by a very handsome majority, in a long by-election, on his defence of key industries by a duty of 33⅓ per cent.
    Mr. MYERS: They had not these proposals then.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: They had the explanation of hon. Members opposite of what they expected the proposals to be. The question, therefore, is whether we ought to confine ourselves to the 10 per cent. If we are to decide this on the basis of authority laid down by our predecessors, I would suggest that 33⅓ per cent. was the rate adopted by Mr. McKenna, the founder of the political faith of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). If it is the right policy to protect key industries in the United Kingdom, what are you to do?
    Dr. MURRAY: Blockade them.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Prohibition and licences would be about as extreme a form of Protection as could possibly be devised. What we are doing in this Bill is to impose such a duty as will, we hope, be an effectual safeguard of these industries. I defy the House to name any one of these industries which could be adequately protected in this country without a duty of at least 33⅓ per cent. This duty has not been selected at random. I say frankly that there are some industries which will still be in difficulties even with this duty of 33⅓ per
    892
    cent. We have gone through all the industries, and have compared the prices at which the goods concerned are sold in other countries and here. In not one single case is the 33⅓ per cent. duty unnecessary.
    Mr. FRANCE: Is that in consequence of the exchange?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I am not going to say whether it is purely in consequence of the exchange. It is partly because of the exchange. It is also because other countries have decided that it is wise to build up these industries. The German chemical industry, for instance, has been founded on 40 years of trade and experience and careful fostering in that country, and that has given it a position which undoubtedly enables it to compete with us, and, what is more, to undersell the industries we are trying to build up. I defy any Member of the House to name a single industry which is in the key industry list the goods of which cannot be undersold by our competitors. That being so, is not a suggestion to reduce the duty from 33⅓ per cent. to 10 per cent. made, not in the interest of the consumer, but quite definitely with the object of wrecking this proposal and of making these industries ineffective in future.
    Captain W. BENN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made a very interesting speech, but, like the President of the Board of Trade, he has made the error of working on what is in his mind instead of basing his case on the reasons given to the House. He is looking upon this from the point of view of a tariff. He believes in a tariff for all trades. That is not the case on which these Resolutions are based. In referring to the speech made by the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Mr. Myers), he mentioned certain articles, and said, "These are not in the Bill." Could not some of them have been included, owing to the words "any articles comprised in any list which may be issued from time to time by the Board of Trade"? Certainly, the hon. and gallant Gentleman will see that electric bulbs could be defined in the list as lamp-blown glass work. This is a matter entirely within the scope of the definition of the Board of Trade. We know quite well from experience of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act and the Orders made by the Board of Trade only the other day

    893
    —Orders which appear to be quite outside the scope of the Act—that there is very little the Board of Trade will not permit themselves to do in these definitions. The real case for the Amendment or for some variation of the Government's proposal is that a duty of this kind is utterly unsuitable for the purpose which the Government allege to be the purpose they have in view. Look at the incidence of it. If a thing comes from Germany or from a country in which the exchange is depreciated, this duty is cumulative on the duties subsequently to be proposed in the second Resolution. So you have a man protected from German goods or goods from Bohemia at one rate of duty, and the same man attacked by competitors from America at another rate of duty. Far more than that, the Government say that they are attempting to help industries on which our lives depend in time of war. Yet they say that when a Colonial competitor arrives he is to be permitted to cut out the British industry and to send in goods here without any tariff whatsoever.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: We do that for the reason that we expect in any future war that there will be the same union within the British Empire as there was in the late War.
    Captain BENN: The sentiment does great credit to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but it will not interfere with the submarines of a possible enemy. How are you to get your are lamp carbons, or your hosiery latch needles from, say, Samoa, if there is a submarine intervening between that country and this? No amount of patriotism on the part of the Dominions or on the part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman will enable that cargo to reach our shores. The whole system can easily be riddled and can be shown to be a thing that is totally inappropriate for the purpose in hand. We are supposed to be safeguarding the life of our country in the military sense, and we are not supposed to be setting up a tariff. The more we examine these proposals, the more we see that in fact they are merely a crude tariff which is brought in to satisfy the conscientious scruples of persons like the Postmaster-General in the form of the safeguarding of key industries. It is a tariff. It is not a good tariff but a very crude tariff, and it cannot be examined for five minutes by anyone with
    894
    a sense of humour without it being laughed out of court.
    Mr. WISE: Surely the War has opened our eyes to the many risks we ran in 1914. If there is one thing more than another we want in future it is security for the United Kingdom. That security can be obtained only by the protection of certain articles, especially the fine chemicals. I have here a Report made by the "British Mission appointed to visit enemy chemical factories in the occupied zone engaged in the production of munitions of war in February, 1919." An extract from that Report is as follows:
    "The key to Germany's War production of explosives was the Haber process for the production of ammonia from atmospheric nitrogen. It is significant that large scale production by this process only began at the end of 1912, and that in the early part of 1914 great pressure was put on the Badische Company to increase its output. During the War"—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): The hon. Gentleman is embarking on a more or less general discussion. The point at issue is the narrow one whether the duty should be 33⅓ per cent. or 10 per cent.
    Mr. WISE: I wished to show from this extract that the War would probably have been over in 1916 if Germany had not had these fine chemicals, and I contend that it is essential that the 33⅓ per cent. duty should be imposed to protect the chemicals. In my constituency there is a large chemical factory which was established in 1797, and they write to me to say that German competition is so acute that they have had almost to close down and that about three-quarters of their men and women are unemployed. What is worse is the fact that German competition through the exchange enables the Germans to cut out entirely any profit there may be in manufacture. I will read an extract from a letter received from the firm. My correspondent writes:
    "You can take it from me that our greatest competition in the future is going to be German—particularly Merck. They are out to smash Howards"—that is the firm in my constituency—"if possible. This last week I have received absolutely trustworthy information that Mercks have instructed people over here to cut to get in."
    It is essential that we should have manufactures of these chemicals in this country. It is no use spending money on battleships and munitions unless we

    895
    have the fine chemicals to supplement them for the making of gunpowder, etc. I contend that 33⅓ is, if anything, too little to keep the manufactures going.
    Sir G. COLLINS: When I took part in the Debate on the Committee stage, I followed an hon. Member for Edinburgh who advocated the acceptance of these Resolutions by mentioning a particular industry in his constituency. The experience is repeating itself this afternoon. The hon. Member who has just spoken has urged that the country should change its policy because of a particular trade in his constituency. So the ball is set rolling and soon some hundred different trades will find an outlet and expression in this House. I wish to deal with the argument advanced by the hon. and gallant Member who replied for the Government. If I may say so, he showed very accurate knowledge of the firms who are manufacturing to day the articles mentioned in the Resolutions. He refuted several of the points put forward by my hon. Friend, and in doing so he showed he knew the firms who are making the articles mentioned in the Resolution. I wish to put it to the President of the Board of Trade that as he knows the firms he should publish the names of the firms and the figures showing the number of people employed. That is a very reasonable request. That he is conversant with the firms is proved by the fact that on the spur of the moment in several cases he has stated quite clearly that firms referred to, whose profits were large, were not making the articles mentioned in the Resolutions. When the country is being asked to give a large protective duty to these trades, the very least the House should demand from the Government is a statement showing the numbers concerned, the capital employed, the people working, and in addition a figure which the Government can well get showing the amount of Government money paid to these firms year by year throughout the War. We ask for information. It may be that the Government have a very good case for this duty of 33⅓ per cent. It may be that all these firms are so inefficient that they need this protection. We are entitled to know the names of the firms, and to know whether we can rely in future on them for the production of these vital key industry goods. That deals with the argument advanced by the hon. and gallant
    896
    Member. This particular Amendment aims at reducing the duty to 10 per cent. I was present in St. Andrew's Hall in 1903 when the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain introduced his tariff scheme and if I may say so, we who are moving in this matter, seem to be following in the footsteps of the late Member for West Birmingham. As hon. Members opposite hold him in such reverence possibly the point we are asking the Government to accept will find some measure of support not only in their minds but in their hearts.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: The proposal, as I take it, is to make the duty 10 per cent. in place of 33⅓ per cent., and I shall take the first item which appears in this White Paper, namely, optical glass and other optical elements. I am totally in disagreement with those hon. Members who think they can help the country by reducing this duty. I do not think for a moment it will do any good to reduce it. I propose to base my remarks on a statement which fell from the hon. Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) when he taunted Ministers by saying this was a protective measure rather than a measure for the safety of the country. It does not matter very much what duty you put upon optical glass, and when I say that, I hope the House will understand that the glass from which spectacles are made, is not included. [HON. MEMBERS: "Of course it is!"] I happen to have had the privilege of working in the optical instrument department in the War Office during some months of the War, and optical glass is not the glass out of which spectacles are made. I define optical glass as having certain refractive indices and dispersions. The total amount of optical glass made for the use of the whole world at the present moment does not amount annually in weight to 50 tons, or in value much more than £50,000. It will never pay any firm in this country to produce a commodity which in the whole year for whole world only represents £50,000. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen will say, "Then why safeguard this industry?" [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Do the hon. Members to my right ask that in cool reason? We did not, early in the War, know what to do in the War Office for binoculars for our men at the Front.
    I can tell a story which may interest the House. We had to buy, borrow, and

    897
    beg prismatic binoculars in twos and threes and sixes and tens for our men at the Front. We could not get the unwrought optical glass out of which to make the prisms or lenses for these binoculars for the men in the trenches. One of His Majesty's counsel, Mr. J. W. Gordon, helped us very greatly by going to France and buying unwrought glass in small slabs worth a sovereign or so each in order to provide the material to make lenses and prisms for our glasses. For 10 or 20 years we had depended upon the firms at Jena to send us glass to this country. I produced for the Commercial Committee of this House before I was a Member of it an invoice issued by that Jena firm to a British optician. In that invoice the persons who bought the optical glass from the German firm bound themselves down not to make that optical glass into anything of which the German firm would not approve. We were at the mercy of Jena. They dictated what we should make. Not only should we put a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on optical glass and instruments, but we should do everything to induce someone in this country to make those articles and render us entirely independent of the German firms.
    Yet hon. Gentlemen are asking us to reduce this duty, forgetting how short we were of this most necessary glass at a critical period of the War. We had to try experiments to find substitutes for prisms and lenses. The Astronomer Royal for Scotland endeavoured to find a metal mirror to take the place of the lenses which we could not get or make. He came to my house on a Sunday at that time to discuss the position, and then to try and find if he could not substitute for lenses and prisms polished copper in order to make instruments for the use of the Field Artillery; so hard pressed were we in 1915 for unwrought optical glass and prisms and lenses. It makes me feel I am living in an unreal world when hon. Gentlemen on my right set about preventing the Government doing something to enable us to have an adequate supply of this entirely essential commodity for the safety of this country under our own control. Suppose, instead of putting on a duty, the Government offer to give a subsidy, the same objection will be put forward by those now opposing, and for merely party reasons. It is
    898
    both unchivalrous and against the practice of this House to attribute motives, but I cannot see why hon. and gallant Members like the hon. and gallant Member for Leith should not look at the importance of the first thing on this Paper and then see how their own arguments apply. We should never have had a single instrument made with optical glass produced in this country between 1916–18 had it not been for Messrs. Chance, of Smethwick. The way in which they took the matter in hand was magnificent. and without thought of the monetary loss, and it should be remembered that there are difficulties involved in educating workpeople to the making of optical glass. It is a difficult and expert process to anneal this particular kind of glass; it takes months to teach the men and months to get the crucibles; and for that reason it is an industry that should be taken in hand, fostered or subsidised and helped and, if you like, protected. We must have the glass, or our fighting men are powerless. I have said that the total amount of optical glass made in the course of the year for the whole world is only 50 tons, and that the annual value is £50,000, but out of that glass is made, among others, those wonderful things called Barr and Stroud (Stroud) range-finders. This almost miraculous instrument which enables the guns of our great battleships to hit a target at 20 miles is worth one or two or more thousand pounds; yet the value of the unwrought optical glass in a range-finder is under £5—or much less. We must take into account the great value of the optical instruments of all kinds—for peace, war and air—made from this glass, and we should remember that it is the making of such instruments which we are seeking to maintain. £50,000 worth of glass will be enough for £30,000,000 sterling worth of optical instruments. We should not allow the production of this indispensable commodity to pass out of our hands.
    There is another matter before the House to which my arguments apply in the same way. I remember the Director of Artillery asking me to find out in 1915 whether we could get supplies of what was then known as chemical glass, and declaring that he could not get on unless he had these test tubes, beakers, flasks, burettes, and other articles used for steel test purposes, and known generally as

    899
    laboratory glass. I could get none for our steel makers. In the past we imported these articles from Southern Germany. In the Black Forest in and around Freiburg these test tubes and other laboratory glass articles are made in cottages at 6d. or 1s. each. They could not and cannot be made by industry in this country for six times the German price. It was largely due to the illustrious Professor Meldola and Messrs. Branson, I think, of Leeds, that steps were taken to help us in the War Office in this direction in order that our steel makers might have proper tools with which, in 1915, to test steel for our engines of war. The hon. Members on my right seem (to use a hackneyed phrase) to forget there has been a War, and that we were short of the articles set forth in the White Paper. I would support a 1,000 per cent. or a 1,000,000 per cent. duty on these articles, but they would not. In order to carry out their worn and threadbare party theories of Free Trade they would rather risk seeing the country lacking these articles of defence and in danger again, than support this step which, to my mind, is necessary for the protection of the country and their own wives and children.
    Mr. FRANCE: The hon. Member who has just spoken made a very interesting speech and revealed some things which were quite new to me and perhaps new to the House, but I draw entirely different conclusions from those which he draws. He has pointed out that it is impossible for any English firm to make optical glass and that no duty of 33⅓ per cent. is any good. What is the obvious conclusion? He will surely believe there are other Members in the House who desire just as much as he does to see the country protected. It is only a matter of the way in which it is done. If it is absolutely essential to have this elaborate optical glass manufacture which no firm can profitably carry out and which we had to go abroad for, during the War, surely the duty of the Government is not to bring in this tinkering protection proposal, this pottering measure to deal with a great and practical subject, but to undertake it themselves as they undertake the building of battleships. I am as much opposed to nationalisation in the general sense as anyone, but in a matter of absolute
    900
    national necessity surely it would be far better for the Government to undertake this comparatively small trade themselves and see that it is thoroughly well done so that the country may not be endangered in the future. This proposal opens the door not only to these particular trades, but to other trades akin to them to come in and ask not only for 33⅓ per cent., but for those other larger figures which the hon. Member in the generosity of his spirit is prepared to give for the protection of industries he thinks necessary.
    6.0 P.M.
    Mr. A. WILLIAMS: The hon. Member for Ilford (Mr. Wise) talked about the War opening our eyes, and he seemed to think it had opened the eyes of no one who differed from himself. I think it is a pity he did not open his own eyes to the fact that some of the most strongly Protectionist nations in the world were just as badly prepared in the things necessary for war as was Free Trade Britain. France and Italy were surely Protectionist enough, and had high enough duties on all sorts of things, but they were no better prepared in various essential matters than we were. The putting on of these big duties does not protect an industry in the sense of encouraging it and getting the best possible results out of it. It has rather the result of making the manufacturer go to sleep behind a big protective wall. I have been a manufacturer myself in a small way, and there are only two things that keep manufacturers up to the mark. One is competition and the other is for the Government to stir them up where necessary in the public interest. The hon. Member on the Treasury Bench (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) asked what would be an effective duty, and I say, effective for what? If you want an effective duty to enable people to go to sleep, put on a heavy one. If you are going to put a duty on by way of encouragement, it is essential that it should not be a big duty, or instead of having a good effect in stimulating industry, it will have the effect of sending people to sleep. The same hon. Gentleman talked of our having to compete against industries which have forty years of Government encouragement, and so on, but he forgot to mention that they have had forty years of the application of scientific methods, forty years of the highest possible

    901
    technical instruction, forty years of the Government seeing that everything is done in the most efficient way, and if we are going to stimulate these scientific industries in this country, it is on some such lines as those that we shall have to do it. There is another reason why I think we should not go beyond 10 per cent., if we are going to put on these duties, and that is from the experience of our country in the old days when we had considerable duties. It was then found that anything above 10 per cent. would certainly produce a fine crop of smuggling and of perjury as to the nature and value of goods. In the old days Brighton was full of smuggled goods; all the south of England was full of smuggled goods, and in Brighton, in particular, it was well understood that when a cargo of smuggled goods was landed the Prince Regent was always to have the first offer of the best of the goods, if he cared to buy. We do not want to go back to that sort of thing, and I say that if you put on a 10 per cent. duty you will have done all you possibly can by way of duties, and where you have trades which are essential to the country in time of war you must adopt other methods.
    Hon. Members talk of their eyes being opened by the War. For myself, my eyes were opened in this matter before the War. I realised quite fully, although I was always brought up a Free Trader, that there were a great many things which we were not providing ourselves which might be essential to us in war, and that we ought to provide ourselves with them, in view of the possibility of war, just as we provided ourselves with battleships and other munitions of war. If hon. Members in other parts of the House have learned that lesson, I am sure that we here are prepared to meet them on that basis, and that where things are proved to be necessary for the country in time of war, we should be quite prepared to join, in some practical and feasible and scientific way, in providing the country with those things. Sometimes it may be done by keeping a large stock of the article in question. A great deal might be done, for instance, with this optical glass in having a very large stock always in the country. Sometimes it must be done in other ways, by the application of science, by Government manufactures, and so on; but
    902
    simply, to put on a 33⅓ per cent. duty, which almost everybody who has spoken from the Protectionist point of view tells us is absurdly small and quite useless for the purpose, and then go to sleep and imagine the thing is done, is betraying the interests of the country. I therefore hope the Government will reconsider this matter and abandon this plan, which will only produce inefficiency and corruption, and that they will, if necessary, resort to more scientific means for providing the country with such things as ordinary trade does not supply, and which are absolutely necessary to us in time of war.
    Sir W. BARTON: I want to find out why a 33⅓ per cent. duty is proposed. The speeches I have heard from the other side convince me of this—and I assume that their object is that the nation in time of war may not be in absolute danger from the want of these particular things—that if that is so, these proposals are not the means by which to effect that end. We have had the extraordinarily interesting illustration of optical glass by an hon. Member (Mr. A. M. Samuel), who has expert knowledge and special inside knowledge of the actual position, and it was quite clear from what he said that this duty will not be anything like sufficient to enable firms to make that glass in this country. I think this is a matter for the Government to take up and to make it, as they would make gunpowder, for the safety of the country. These proposals are crude and ill-considered, and I think my hon. Friend opposite (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) must have come to that conclusion himself, for the arguments he put forward had no relation to this proposal whatever. They had relation to a possible future war, a very short-sighted view, in my opinion. I consider that the interest of this nation is to build up the economic fabric of the nation. That would be the truest preparation for war, but to put on tariffs, to hinder industry, and to embarrass employment is not the way to prepare for a coming war. Surely in the last War, next to the bravery of our soldiers and the character of our people, the strongest asset was our financial position, built up under Free Trade, and the Government propose to embarrass that position and have not even proved by one single fact that this 33⅓ per cent. duty will help us.
    Mr. RAE: I sat during the War for eighteen months on a Board of Trade Committee that amongst other matters investigated the question of the lack of certain articles which were necessary for carrying on the War, and which, at all events for a long time, we were not able to manufacture, even to a small extent, in this country. Rightly or wrongly—and I think rightly—we came to the conclusion to recommend that certain key industries should be established and should either receive some protection in the form of duties or by way of subsidies. A certain number of us, perhaps, would have preferred subsidies, but I understand that there are certain difficulties in the way of subsidies, which are very difficult to work. However that may be, I do not look at this matter from the point of view of either the Free Trader or the Protectionist. I think it is a question of what is really necessary to the country when the country is in very grave difficulties indeed, and that is a far more important factor than the question of the principle of Free Trade or Protection. The hon. Member for Morley (Mr. France) has told us that if Protection is to be given, it should be given sufficiently high and that 33⅓ per cent. is not sufficiently high. I would like to ask the hon. Member this question: Is he prepared to vote for a protection sufficiently high, if 33⅓ per cent. is not sufficiently high? The real truth of the matter is that they are looking at this question entirely from the point of view of the Free Trader or the Protectionist, and I hold that it ought to be placed on a much higher level than that.
    Mr. FRANCE: The hon. Member has attributed to me something which I never said. I referred to a remark made by a previous speaker, who said that 33⅓ per cent. is no good, and I advocated, rather than that, the method of manufacturing this glass by the Government.
    Mr. RAE: Here, again, we have Members suggesting that the Government should do it—the very Members who have been fighting tooth and nail against Government control and Government interference. I think there is a good deal of insincerity in this opposition. The hon. Member for Oldham (Sir W. Barton) talked about the embarrassing of trade and employment, but anyone who knows anything at all about the manufacture of
    904
    any of these articles included in this list knows that to talk about a 33⅓ per cent. or any other duty upon these articles causing serious embarrassment to employment in this country is speaking rather wide of the mark. Let us, at all events, give these men who are prepared to try and manufacture these articles the help that is suggested in these Resolutions. Whether they will succeed or not, I do not know. I have very grave doubts about their success in some of them, but we ought to make an effort to give some help to those who are willing to take the risk.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Rae) accuses us of being insincere. I should have been the last person to introduce that sort of suggestion into the Debate, but as we have this question of sincerity or insincerity brought forward, it is just as well that we should look facts in the face. This is the first real Debate we have had on these protectionist tariffs, the first time that we have had in this House people speaking in this House for the interests of their own pockets. Anybody who shares in any of these protected industries and takes part in these Debates is taking part, not from the public point of view, but from his own personal point of view, and in that case we cannot have that straightforward sincerity that we ought to have in the public interest, in this House. There are always two questions in politics. On one side is the public interest, and on the other side is the vested interest, and in these protectionist Debates which we are going to have now we shall undoubtedly have the vested interest side presented to us with unblushing insincerity. With this particular Amendment, I think we may agree that everybody in this House is definitely anxious that we should secure in this country the manufacture or the possibility of the acquisition of all those materials which are essential for war. We do not in any way want to hamper our country if she has the misfortune again to be dragged into war. We want to be quite certain that all these optical glasses and other instruments will be more readily available for the next war than they were for the late one. We are all at one in this regard.
    There are, however, two diametrically opposite schools of thought in that matter, and as to how we shall arrive at that

    905
    position. There are hon. Members below the Gangway who think that the only way is by a very high protective duty on all the products of these key industries, so that private individauls may be induced by the prospect of high profits to manufacture these goods in this country. That is a perfectly intelligible school of thought. The other school of thought, represented more particularly on these benches—and I am glad to say by the hon. Member opposite for Morley—is that, these things being necessary, we should take other means and other methods of securing for our country these necessary articles. That school of thought thinks that, just as the State builds battleships, so it ought to make optical glasses, and that any item necessary for warfare, and which is essential to this country, should be produced by public instead of by private enterprise. We have two arguments for preferring that kind of policy.
    In the first place, there is better security. Hon. Members below the Gangway would not, I think, say that even with unlimited protection that they can be certain that private enterprise will succeed in building up these industries successfully, let alone with the 33⅓ per cent., and with only five years to do it in! The time is limited, and the protection insufficient, and they cannot assure us that with higher tariffs we shall have the industries successfully established in this country. There is no security. On the other hand, in a Government undertaking there is absolute security. There is certainty, too. It may cost money, but there is a certainty that the goods will be delivered. That is one of our arguments. The second argument is, to my mind, even more important. It is that in this case the liability is unknown, and that it is absolutely certain in the case of Government manufacture. We shall vote year by year the necessary sums for providing these essential articles, and I think there will be fewer, much fewer, essential articles discovered when we are actually voting the money. We should know where we are. On the other hand, in the opposite policy we do not know in the least where we are. We are, however, quite certain of this: that the Government will not be the only purchaser of these articles made under protected conditions; it will be the whole of the consumers of the country who will
    906
    pay this protective price, and the cost to the whole of the country must in any case far exceed the cost of the Government manufacture of their special requirements. Armour-plates, for instance. What did we do with that? We paid enormous sums to the manufacturers of armour-plates. We made the fortune of Vickers, and John Brown, and Cammel's. We made their fortunes by paying them enormous prices to keep their key industry going. How much better had it been if the Government themselves had manufactured their armour-plate and had saved those vast sums squandered on these armament firms, who, of course, formed a ring as soon as the Government tried to ensure competition.
    The whole object and the whole point of the argument from this side of the House is that where these key industries are really necessary they should be maintained by the Government, and that we should not introduce a system of taxing the whole community for the benefit of certain unspecified individuals. As for the question of the amount of 33⅓ per cent., I would point out that, beside the two entirely different schools of thought in this House to which I have referred, those who believe in high protective tariffs and those who believe that where manufacture is essential the Government should do the thing, there is the unfortunate Government which cannot make up its mind which school of thought is right. The Front Bench is hovering, but has compromised on the 33⅓ per cent., and has put forward no argument at all in favour of it: no proof that the 33⅓ per cent. will fulfil the wish of the hon. Member for Norwich or the wish of the hon. Member for Morley. 33⅓ per cent. has nothing to do with either. It is one of those beautiful compromises which does not satisfy any particular school of thought. Being, however, half-way it must be exactly right. The world is neither right nor wrong, but, according to the Government, half-way between the two. So we get this 33⅓ per cent., which ensures all the trouble of the Customs Houses and all the extra expense to the consumers of the country, but which does not look so very bad. It is not absolutely wrong to import all these articles, but at the same time there is a beautiful free hand left to the Board of Trade to make such variations as they think fit. Personally, I do not—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he is going much too wide in his remarks. On the Report stage, we are strictly limited to each Amendment as it arises. The sole question before us at the moment is as to whether 10 per cent. or 33½ per cent. should be in the Resolution of the House.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that I was led away by previous speakers to going outside the fair scope of the Amendment. But the whole point is that the Government have by a process of exhaustion and compromise arrived at 33⅓ per cent. I, while not caring for the 33⅓ per cent., prefer the 10 per cent. They are both thoroughly immoral. Both are based on no particular principle. But 10 is much easier to calculate, and involves considerably less tax on the rest of the community. If you must have a bad thing, at any rate, have as little of it as possible, and as this form, this method of securing key industries is in my opinion, and in the opinion, I think, of the Labour party, a thoroughly bad method of securing these key industries, certainly I should prefer to see this duty merely 10 per cent., instead of 33⅓ per cent.
    In conclusion, may I say that I do think the Government Front Bench have hardly acted fairly in relation to this subject with this side of the House? We really in matters of this sort ought to have the Government view explained. We should have some statement as to why 33⅓ per cent.—This mystic number—most difficult to calculate—why it should be the exact figure selected by the Government. It is all very well for the Government to say that they have behind them the whole or most of this House of Commons, and that they can override any opposition. Of course they can, but it is not playing the game. Argument is expected by this House, in spite of the fact that the Federation of British Industries exists outside. We ought to have argument, as well as things said. I am sorry, deeply sorry for a good man struggling against adversity, like the President of the Board of Trade, who has got to support this measure in the House, although he does not like it. In spite of that, I think, he or his subordinates—one of whom was a Free Trader once—ought to get up and make a case for this
    908
    33⅓ per cent., as to which the whole House is at present in complete ignorance.
    Mr. KILEY: In speaking on this subject and supporting the reduction of the 33⅓ per cent. to 10 per cent., I desire to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. Member for Consent when he stated that he was fully prepared to support the Government in any action that was necessary to obtain the supplies of what was essential to the safety of the Empire. On that point there is, I think, no difference of opinion in any section of the House. There may be a doubt as to whether the list the Government now propose constitutes all that is necessary for the safety of the Empire. But we can arrive at that after careful investigation, and it may be that it will be found that many industries are left out. We found in this country a deficiency of what was essential. The Germans found themselves deficient in another way. The Germans suffered from the lack of rubber, wool, cotton, and other things. Therefore, if we want to be well equipped, we shall have to prepare a much more exhaustive list than the one before us. That being so, the question what we have to consider is: What is essential to achieve the object which the Government have in view—having these products of these certain industries available when the time arrives? I suggest that the 10 per cent. is sufficient for the purpose.
    I have listened very carefully to get some enlightenment on the point put forward. Various statements have been made as to the profits accruing, and the condition of certain of these trades, as to whether or not they are equal to being self-supporting. I am not in a position to speak about every one of these industries, but certainly I have in mind many that were in existence long before the War. What I have in mind is that certain of these were self-supporting before the War, and during the War and at the present time they have added immensely to their resources, have paid huge dividends, and in many instances have paid large sums in Excess Profits Tax. These firms have come forward—or rather, I should say, the Government have gone to them, and desires to place at their disposal means to enable them further to increase their prices and profits by a figure of 33⅓ per cent. If the

    909
    Government were anxious, as I think they should be in this matter, and if they are going to give these firms the protection suggested, if the country is to be dependent upon them for what is essential, and the development of their industries is desirable, and the Government are aiding them, they should insist that a portion of their profits should be set aside for further scientific research. But there is nothing of the sort. It might be thought by some hon. Members that if you reduce the 22⅓ per cent. to 10 per cent. in certain industries that it would not be sufficient for the purpose we have in view. If that be so, is there any other way in which that difficulty could be met? I suggest there is—a very simple way.
    We have heard this afternoon something about sugar. We were told that the Government, in order to develop the sugar industry in this country, have subscribed a very large sum of money—I think £250,000 to one company and more—in order to ensure the existence of that company for a number of years. They guarantee the payment of a dividend to anyone who puts money into that company. They have also appointed some of the directors. If it can be shown to this House that certain industries are essential for the safety of the Empire then it is the duty of the Government to take action accordingly. Let them take action by abolishing tariffs altogether. If they are not prepared to do so I would make the tariff as small as possible, 10 per cent. say. If in one or two trades or industries that is found not sufficient then I suggest that the Government should follow the example of their experiment in sugar, exercise the same control and take the same action to ensure that the objects they have in view are attained. Does the House realise what this 33⅓ per cent. really means? To give a practical illustration take a Kodak camera at something like 10 guineas. Probably the lens would be worth about one guinea. Upon what are you going to levy 33⅓ per cent? If it is imported at 10 guineas, is the 33⅓ to be levied on the 10 guineas or upon the value of the lens? That would represent with cumulative charges 50 per cent., and every user of a Kodak camera would have to pay 50 per cent. more for it. No doubt that would be so much better for the Kodak shareholders, but it would be no advantage to the user of the instrument in question. Those are some of the
    910
    reasons why I urge the House not to accept the figure, but to insist upon 10 per cent.
    Rear-Admiral ADAIR: A number of references have been made in the course of this Debate to armour and battleships, and a suggestion has been that the manufacture of these things should be confined to the Government itself. May I point out that the progress made in armaments in the past has been due mainly to private firms, and if the matter had been left in the hands of the Government, God knows where we should have been. We hear that the manufacture of optical glass should be left to the Government, but did the German Government manufacture their optical glass? Not at all, it was done in Germany by the private individual. In the case of the battleships about 90 per cent. are built in private yards, and in most cases the Admiralty designers come from private firms. It is ridiculous to talk about leaving these things to the Government, and if we did we should have no advance whatever. Competition is the cause of progress, and if there is 33⅓ as compared with 10 per cent., the former may lead people to feel secure and to enter into competition, whereas 10 per cent. would be no inducement. New firms might take up the manufacture of optical glass with 33⅓, who would not take it up at all with 10 per cent. Many years ago Mr. Chamberlain, speaking at Glasgow, advocated a 10 per cent. tariff, but if he had foreseen what the Germans would do in 20 years, no doubt he would have advocated the 33⅓ per cent. we are advocating now.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: We have just been told that it is competition which secures the best output in industrial life. Our case is that under this tariff manufacturers will be deprived of the incentive to competition. Which is the worst, to deprive a person of all real incentive by giving him a tariff, or handing over the manufacture of an article to a Government Department? What we on this side say is, that the loss of trade generally through this tariff is unknown in its amount, and the effect upon the community has yet to be proved. With reference to articles which are vital for the national welfare, 33⅓ may be too small, and some countries may demand 100 per cent. The argument about national safety has been introduced, and optical glass has

    911
    been mentioned. We are told that other articles may be included in a list which may be issued from time to time by the Board of Trade defining the articles falling under the Order, but what has that to do with national safety?
    We will take any course the Government suggest which has been carefully and impartially considered which will provide for the safety of this country. It is not fair for us to be accused of being insincere in our view, because we are tied down on the hypothetical question of Free Trade. We will support any policy which will secure the manufacture within our own country of any article which is vital for the safety of the country. What we contend is that you will never do it by a tax. We know if these things are to be
    produced it is a long process of technical education and large subsidies must be cheerfully granted. We are asked to impose a 33⅓ duty for the safety of the realm, but our complaint is that if we consent to this, what will happen is that the Free Trade basis of this country will have been departed from. In addition to this 33⅓ per cent. many of these articles may come under the class of articles which are being dumped and an extra percentage may be put upon them. This is a form of protection which will not stimulate manufactures and will not provide for the national safety. For these reasons I shall support this Amendment.
    Question put, "That '33⅓' stand part of the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 244 Noes, 79.

    Division No. 129.]

    AYES.

    [6.40 p.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Hood, Joseph

    Armitage, Robert

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Atkey, A. R.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Dockrell, Sir Maurice

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick)

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Barker, Major Robert H.

    Fildes, Henry

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

    FitzRoy, Captain Hon. Edward A.

    Jesson, C.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Jodrell, Neville Paul

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Forrest, Walter

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Bigland, Alfred

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

    Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Kidd, James

    Blair, Sir Reginald

    Gardiner, James

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Gardner, Ernest

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Gilbert, James Daniel

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Glyn, Major Ralph

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Briggs, Harold

    Gould, James C.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Lorden, John William

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Greenwood, Colonel Sir Hamar

    Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

    Butcher, Sir John George

    Greer, Harry

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Carew, Charles Robert S.

    Gregory, Holman

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Casey, T. W.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Maddocks, Henry

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Matthews, David

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

    Middlebrook, Sir William

    Clough, Robert

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Mitchell, William Lane

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Morrison, Hugh

    Reid, D. D.

    Waddington, R.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

    Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

    Renwick, George

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Murray, John (Leeds, West)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Neal, Arthur

    Rodger, A. K.

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

    Rothschild, Lionel de

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Parker, James

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Pearce, Sir William

    Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

    Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Seddon, J. A.

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Wise, Frederick

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Pratt, John William

    Starkey, Captain John Ralph

    Yeo, Sir Alfred William

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Purchase, H. G.

    Taylor, J.

    Rae, H. Norman

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Raeburn, Sir William H.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    McCurdy.

    Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Myers, Thomas

    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

    Hayward, Evan

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Spencer, George A.

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Spoor, B. G.

    Briant, Frank

    Irving, Dan

    Swan, J. E.

    Bromfield, William

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Cairns, John

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Tootill, Robert

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Kennedy, Thomas

    Wallace, J.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Waterson, A. E.

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lunn, William

    Wignall, James

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Mallalieu, Frederick William

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Gillis, William

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. G. Thorne and Major Barnes.

    Mr. SPEAKER: The next Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen (Major M. Wood) and other hon. Members, to substitute the word "price" for "value," I must rule out of order, as it might involve an additional charge.
    Dr. MURRAY: I beg to move to leave out paragraph (a).
    This paragraph refers to optical glasses. We discussed this thing in Committee and I have had several communications from people interested in these articles which show there is ample evidence of a growing opposition to the imposition of a tax upon these very
    914
    necessary items in the scientific world. I admit there is no great demonstration against the tariff amongst people engaged in scientific work, but it must be remembered that their eyes are always glued to the microscope, the spectroscope or some other scientific instrument for research purposes, and they do not realise what is going on in this House until they go to an optician's shop to buy one of these articles, and then find that the price has doubled because of legislation. No case has been made out for including the optical glass industry among the key industries of this country. It has been suggested that, as a result of the position which obtained at the beginning of the

    915
    War, the Government feel they ought not to run any risk of a similar position arising when the next war comes, and they, are therefore putting this 33⅓ per cent. on almost every kind of optical glass in order to ensure that when the next war does come they may not be again taken by surprise. Far too much is being made of the difficulties of this country at the beginning of the War with regard to optical glasses, and I really do not think that a case has been made out for this imposition.
    I propose to quote a greater authority than myself. An hon. Member below the Gangway who spoke just now gave us his experiences with regard to optical glasses at the beginning of the War. I hold in my hand a book called the "Dictionary of British Scientific Instruments," issued by the British Optical Instrument Manufacturers' Association, and I think that that is the highest authority one can appeal to as to what was the condition of that industry at the beginning of the War. We admit that it was undeveloped, but the potentialities for great development were there, and were speedily realised when the call came. Let me quote an extract from this book. I would like to draw the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to this authoritative statement. I may say I read a review of this book in a scientific journal the other day, and got a copy of it, in order to see what the enemy said, but I found it was not an enemy at all. This is what the British Optical Instrument Manufacturers' Association said with regard to optical glasses:
    "The enormous demand for military instruments fostered the industry in the past in those countries which possessed large standing armies. It is therefore not surprising that the great establishments for making optical instruments found in continental Europe do not exist in this country. The advent of war, however, found the optical industry of Great Britain in such a healthy state of activity that, within a short space of time, it increased to the necessary extent to equip a new army of 5,000,000 men, and supplied many millions pounds worth per annum of the highest grade instruments. It may be safely asserted that in no direction has the creation of the Army been hindered by a lack of the best optical instruments."
    7.0 P.M.
    That is an authoritative statement from the manufacturers of optical instruments. Yet we are told it is a dying industry! A great many optical inventions were
    916
    produced during the War, and the development of the industry has been in accord with the best traditions of the past. Why, then, should it require an artificial stimulant in order to keep it alive? I think it is absolutely conclusive that it is not necessary to set up an artificial tariff, or an artificial protection of this sort, in order, not only to keep the industry alive, but to keep it in such a state of preparedness that if the call should ever come, which God forbid, this industry will be, at that date, capable of full development, with the financial assistance it will have from the Government and the great research laboratories which have been brought into being by the Government. This optical industry does not require one iota of this sort of assistance which the Government propose to give it. If it was prepared to develop so suddenly and so effectively at the beginning of the Great War, when there was only one splendid patriotic firm engaged in it, is it not assured that, after all the assistance which the Government has given it, and the fact that we can now make in this country optical instruments as good as are produced in any part of the world—if a war does ever come again—and I should prefer to see the Government preparing for peace rather than for war—the industry will logically be in a position twenty times better prepared than it was at the beginning of the last War, when it proved able to answer every call. That, I think, authoritatively disposes of the fundamental case of the Government for including these articles in their Key Industries Bill. The case which the Government has made has been disposed of effectively by the authoritative statement of the manufacturers themselves as to what they were able to do during the War, and in passing I would like to observe that those manufacturers deserve well of this country for all that they accomplished, I have no doubt that a good many of the millions mentioned in that book as having been spent upon these optical instruments during the War have been preserved and have gone into the development of the industry and towards making it better prepared than ever before. Therefore the fundamental case of the Government for optical instruments goes by the board. Coming to details, even

    917
    if we assume that protection of this sort is necessary why, in all the universe, should the Government have pounced, in the first place, upon these scientific instruments, which, above all others, are necessary for scientific purposes? The Germans were wiser than our Government. We hear a lot of talk about what the Germans did for optical glasses before the War. Of course, they stored them up. It has not been stated from the Government Bench, but there has been a sort of general idea that the Germans, for example, had a tariff on microscopes. Nothing of the kind. They had no tariff on microscopes. So we cannot get a lesson from the Germans in that respect. I think, also, that this is a Philistine tax; it is a tax on scientific progress. I can imagine that some uneducated man who, by a rule-of-thumb method had got on in commerce and had made a big pile of money, not caring for scientific progress at all, but the Government are rather supposed to be possessed of all the talents, and many of their members have a great reputation for interest in scientific progress and education. In the very first paragraph of their Resolutions they bring under the paralysing effect of Protection an industry of this sort. Thus they make it very difficult for the people engaged in scientific research to pursue their studies, which is a Philistine attitude and one which the House should not encourage.
    After all, men and women who are engaged in scientific research are not millionaires. As a rule, they are very poor people money is not their object, and the facilities for scientific research are much more widespread than they were 20 years ago. When I was at college a very small proportion of the students could afford a microscope, and perhaps it was not then so necessary. To-day, however, every student wants his microscope, and if he is going to have to pay £30 or £40 for one to-day, as against £13 or £14 pre-War price, how is the ordinary student to obtain his miscroscope? One of the great hopes of scientific and medical progress in this country is the widespread diffusion of effort of this sort. Many more people now, in their private homes, engage in scientific research than ever before. Many medical men have private bacteriological laboratories, small ones, no doubt, in their houses. It is from widespread
    918
    investigations of this sort that we can expect further progress in this direction in the future.
    In this paragraph "optical elements whether finished or not" are mentioned, that is to say, raw material. In the optical trade, as in every other trade, every man who makes an optical instrument does not always himself manufacture every item in that instrument. He may get lenses or some other item from other people. This paragraph prevents that assembling of parts, so to speak, which many manufacturers in this country engage in. Therefore, in this way, the Government are helping not to increase employment but to reduce employment. I admit that sometimes raw material is difficult to define. In the higher walks of political life you find that. The other day I noticed that a certain statesman, a distinguished figure, claimed that another distinguished statesman had been converted and had become a member of his party. Ever since that statement was made the question has been discussed in the papers whether this distinguished statesman is a raw recruit or the finished article. That has not been decided yet. There is a difficulty sometimes in deciding what the finished article is. This paragraph (a) hits raw material, and in that way the Government are helping to decrease employment in this particular industry. As I said before, I believe in the first place that protection of this particular kind is not needed for this industry. If the manufacturers were able to make these things at the beginning of the War they will be able to do it better in the years to come.
    The effect of this paragraph will be to retard medical metallurgical progress, and it will act as a brake upon almost all scientific progress in this country. Nearly every optical instrument will be taxed in such a way as to make it almost impossible for the ordinary man to get any of them. The fact of the matter is that in taxing the people who use these instruments the Government are really paying a tribute to Mars, the God of War. Take the tax on telescopes. The only thing the Government can see with the telescope is the planet Mars, the God of War. I believe the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for these things. There are other planets in the sky as well as the planet Mars. There is, for instance, the

    919
    planet Venus. If Venus has no attraction for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and those who assist him, that is no reason why they should act as dogs in the manger and prevent us from looking at Venus. According to the Government, every time you look at Venus you must pay a tax to Mars. I do not think the Government have been able to make out a case for a tax on these instruments, and I therefore move the deletion of the paragraph.
    Mr. KILEY: I beg to second the Amendment. I would like to compliment my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles (Dr. Murray) upon his very useful contribution to the Debate, which has been set off by his reference to that very wonderful book whose contents should not be questioned in any way. That book is issued by the British Optical Instrument Manufacturers' Association. It will interest the House to know that in regard to optical glass
    "The manufacture is of great nicety and difficulty, demanding the utmost care and patience. It was first undertaken in England some 70 years ago by Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company, of Birmingham, and until quite recently it has remained in their hands alone in the United Kingdom."
    It will also interest the House to know where Germany has obtained its glass. It obtained those glasses which were required from Messrs. Chance, of Birmingham. It was only when Messrs. Chance, of Birmingham, refused to make for them a certain variation which they required in a lens that the Germans were induced themselves to start their own work. Since that time they have progressed, possibly, at a far greater rate than we have done in this country. From the comments of some speakers one would infer that the glass industry did not exist in this country. If any hon. Member has any doubt he should go to the district of Stourbridge, between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, and see the great industries for the turning out of glass that have existed there for years and years. That is only one district; there are many others. During the War they had a great opportunity, of which, I am glad to say, they made full use. I do not wish the House to imagine that Germany is the only place where they make lenses. France is an enormous producer of lenses, and so is America. The other day I put this ques-
    920
    tion to one of the largest glass manufacturers in this country. "Did we suffer very much during the War in the matter of glass and glass lenses?" He said, "Not very much. The Government, of course, were hampered, like every Government was hampered; but the Government authorised a number of us to go on the Continent. We went on the Continent, and we obtained for the Government what they stated they needed." That is of interest to hear. One does not question the fact whatever that there must have been considerable difficulty, or that we were not able, at any time, in regard to any commodity, to produce the enormous quantities which we wanted at any given moment. We were, however, able to get through and to win the War, while the country which had all this glass at first did not succeed. Therefore, we were not in that frightful position such as certain speeches we have heard would have led us to suppose.
    I want to put forward one or two objections to this paragraph. What does "optical elements" mean? I take it that the Minister in charge will tell me if I am wrong. Does it mean that if any person imports into this country the frame of a pair of spectacles that that frame is an optical element? If so, has a duty to be paid on the frame, or on anything to which a lens can be attached?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME indicated dissent.
    Mr. KILEY: I am very glad to have an assurance from the Minister that that is not so. When he comes to reply I hope he will indicate what "optical elements" consists of, because many of us will be relieved to hear that it is not intended to bring spectacle frames and other articles under the paragraph. The paragraph mentions "spectroscopes and other optical instruments." There is the case of kindergarten toys and toy kaleidoscope. Will a toy kaleidoscope and a toy magic lantern be included? The Board of Trade is taking very great powers, and there should be some definition or limitation of those powers. There is one other matter on which I think we might usefully get some information, namely, as to the immediate necessity of putting a duty upon opera glasses. These are fancy articles, and I am told that 90 per cent. of those imported into

    921
    this country are produced in France. They are produced in France on account of the fancy-work with which they are decorated. To my mind, there is no justification for this paragraph being allowed to remain.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The hon. Member who moved this Amendment will not be surprised if I repeat to some extent the reply which I gave to him when this paragraph was discussed in Committee a few days ago, because on that occasion he made a very complete speech, almost identically the same as that which he has now made, although he has varied it by an interesting reference to astronomical instruments. The whole object of protecting optical glass and optical instruments has its foundation in the experience which we had during the War. The hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley) said, "After all, we may have been rather short of these things, but we won the War and Germany did not." That really is an astounding conclusion at which to arrive. Are we to draw the conclusion that, because we were fortunate enough to win the War, we are to neglect every lesson it has taught us, and be as unprepared for the next war as we were for the last? I would appeal to the practical experience of every man in this House who served in the War. The one thing that was holding us up at the beginning was the lack of optical glass and optical instruments — periscopes, sights for guns, and so on. How many men in the early days of the War were shot at their observation posts because they had not adequate optical instruments? The manufacturers certainly did well in the end, but they did well because we set them all to work. We were only producing at the beginning a few hundred pounds of optical glass a month, but at the end we were producing it in large quantities, and it was absolutely the key to the work of every section of our forces, from the infantryman in the trench back to the gunners. In the air you depend entirely upon your optical instruments. Without these lenses you cannot obtain your photographs, and you could not have fought a single ship at sea or a submarine under the sea without these optical elements. I do not think that the House is going to throw aside that experience.
    922
    It is no good saying that we will have just the things which we want in a war. Either you must have an optical glass industry, and a scientific instrument industry which is built up upon it, in its peace condition, complete as an industry, or you will have no opportunity of having it for war purposes. It may be asked why a microscope is protected. I can give a sufficient answer to that, for the very time when a microscope is needed is in war time, with its necessity, for instance, for bacteriological research in every hospital. If you do not safeguard these peace products, your industry will go, and you will not be able to rely upon it for the war products which you may need. It is essential that such an industry as this should be maintained from the stage of the manufacture of the optical glass right through to the finished product. If there is one gap the industry will be lost altogether. The specific point of optical elements was put to me by the hon. Member for Whitechapel, who appeared to be under the impression that optical elements meant things like spectacle frames. That is not the meaning of the term "optical elements." It is a term which, I understand, is well known to those who deal in scientific ware of this kind. The optical element is made either from glass or from mineral substances like Iceland spar, and is so finished as to give a critically clear optical image. With regard to another point raised by the hon. Member the optical instruments referred to do not include toys, but are the products of the scientific instrument maker, and are scientific optical instruments such as are used for optical work. The hon. Member's final point was in regard to French opera glasses, and he asked whether they have any bearing upon war. They have every bearing upon war. Again I would remind hon. Members of the position in which we were placed because we had no peace production of binoculars. We were without the possibility of manufacturing binoculars, which were needed by every man in our Forces, and it will be within the recollection of the House how we had to scour all the countries to which we could get access in order to get binoculars in the early stages of the War. The House will also remember the appeal made by Lady Roberts to every private house and to every man and woman who possessed anything in the

    923
    nature of binoculars or opera glasses, in order that she might transmit them to the Forces during the intermediate period before they could be manufactured here. If anyone will consult the memory of those who served in those early days, and who had experience on land, in the air, or at sea, he will find in that experience not only a justification but a compelling necessity to give this industry that protection which is necessary for it in the future.
    Major BARNES: The way in which the Parliamentary Secretary misses the whole point of the objection to this paragraph is perfectly amazing. He has been arguing for the last five or six minutes as if what had to be done here was to create this industry. One would imagine that there was no one in this country who was able at the present time to provide an adequate supply of optical glass for peace requirements. Of course, the position is entirely the opposite. The problem is not at all the creation of the industry. If there be a problem, it is the problem of its maintenance, not its creation. I have here an authoritative statement published in a series of articles in the "Daily Telegraph," in which reference is made to the principal firm of optical glass manufacturers in this country—Messrs. Chance Brothers. It says that:
    "Before four years and four months of war had drawn out to a close, Messrs. Chance Brothers were manufacturing at Smethwick, in one year, optical glass sufficient to meet three years of the whole world's peace demands."
    That is the position of the optical glass industry in this country. We have one works in this country able to turn out in one year sufficient glass to supply the whole requirements of the world.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: And now shut down owing to foreign competition.
    Major BARNES: That interruption is a remarkable evidence of the way in which this House is treated. We should never have got that if I had not made that statement.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: It is common knowledge.
    Major BARNES: The hon. Member says that it is common knowledge. We have learned it within the last day or two, but it is information that has not been placed
    924
    before the House. Here is an industry capable of turning out an enormous production. The problem is to maintain it, and the question before the House is really whether a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on optical glass is going to maintain the industry. It is put forward as being based on research by the Government into the requirements of this industry, but we say on this side of the House that 33⅓ per cent. on all scientific instruments is going to impose a general burden upon research and upon education, and is not going to effect the object which the Government has in view. We are supported in that conclusion by these very people—the British Optical Instrument Manufacturers' Association. They may be presumed to know what their requirements are, and what they really need to assist them, and they say that this 33⅓ per cent. is absolutely of no use to them at all. What they want is that
    "No optical glass or scientific instruments should be imported into this country for a period of, say, seven years, except under licence. Such licence only to be granted in respect of goods which are not being made in Great Britain in the required quantities or sold at reasonable rates."
    Really, the problem before the House and the country is that of finding some way of maintaining this industry, which it is agreed is vital for the purposes of war. We submit that the Government are going entirely the wrong way to work. To impose a general tariff of this kind is no way of securing this industry. You have here an industry which might be helped in a direct fashion at a cost which would be perfectly plain and completely known at any time. You have one works here which is capable of supplying the whole requirements of the country. It is a vital works, and from this point of view may be looked upon as an armament works. The proper course is that which was followed in Germany, and which these people themselves stress. Here is a vital works, an armament works, which cannot exist without some help. Give them a subsidy. Let us have a plain figure, so that we may know what the cost is, and can look into it at any time to see that it is being properly used. That is our view on this side of the House. It is idle for the Parliamentary Secretary to endeavour to create the impression here that an industry has to be created, and that it can be created by the imposition of a 33⅓ per cent. tariff.
    Sir W. PEARCE: In including optical and chemical glass, the Government are only following the recommendation of the Committee on Commercial and Industrial Policy. This is what the Committee said:
    "Prior to the War, this country was virtually dependent upon Germany for these essential articles … The main lines of action have been the making of agreements by the Ministry of Munitions and, where necessary, by the War Office, Admiralty and Ministry of Munitions jointly, with selected firms, under which, in return for Government, financial and other assistance, they have created plant to produce a required output. …"
    The Government had to make special grants to get the works established. The Committee go on to say:
    "In order that the industries may have time and opportunity to adapt their organisation to peace conditions and to train an adequate supply of skilled workers, very special measures of protection against foreign competition will be required at the outset in view of the great strength and reputation of German firms."
    This is not a question of Free Trade and Protection. A special Committee was appointed by the last Government to consider the whole of this question. It was a non-partisan Committee, and they issued this Report with regard to essential industries, that they ought to be assisted and sustained and protected by the Government in some form or other, or they would be wiped out by German competition. I think the Government two years ago, when the present Coalition was formed, declared that it was their intention to carry out these recommendations. It seems to me that in putting these objects in the Schedule they are simply doing what was their duty, and a Committee was appointed to examine carefully what articles required to receive Government assistance for the period directly after the War. Chemical and optical glass was included, reasons were
    given for including it, and most careful examination was made, and I think the Government would have failed in their duty in introducing any measure of this sort for protecting essential industries if they had not included chemical and optical glass. It was accepted by everyone at the time that this industry required some special care. The recommendations were universally accepted. Members of every class and opinion were represented on the Committee—Free Traders, Protectionists and representatives of the working classes—and the Report was absolutely unanimous.
    Major HAYWARD: The hon. Gentleman (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) laid emphasis on what he called the experience of the War. The greater part of his speech consisted in detailing the difficulties in which we found ourselves at the beginning of the War owing to our deficiency in the means of producing optical and other scientific instruments. He presented the problem we have to deal with, and on no occasion from the Front Bench have we had anything further than the presentation of the problem, and we are left to assume that the means of solving the problem by this Bill will be efficient. The Government have never yet told us that they have applied their minds to the solving of this problem and after careful consideration and consultation with experts have come to the conclusion that this is the best method of dealing with it. We have never been told even that they themselves expect the methods they propose to apply to be successful. For that reason I hope we shall divide and that we shall at least get this paragraph deleted from the Bill.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 209 Noes, 70.

    Division No. 130.]

    AYES.

    [7.35 p.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Armitage, Robert

    Blair, Sir Reginald

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

    Atkey, A. R.

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Clough, Robert

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Barker, Major Robert H.

    Briggs, Harold

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Carew, Charles Robert S.

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Bigland, Alfred

    Casey, T. W.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Dockrell, Sir Maurice

    Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Rodger, A. K.

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund.

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Rutherford, Colonel Sir J. (Darwen)

    Fildes, Henry

    Kidd, James

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

    Seddon, J. A.

    Forrest, Walter

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Gardiner, James

    Lorden, John William

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Gardner, Ernest

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Starkey, Captain John Ralph

    Gilbert, James Daniel

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Maddocks, Henry

    Stevens, Marshall

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Gould, James C.

    Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

    Taylor, J.

    Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

    Middlebrook, Sir William

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Mitchell, William Lane

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Greer, Harry

    Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Gregory, Holman

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Waddington, R.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Morrison, Hugh

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

    Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Neal, Arthur

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Parker, James

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Pearce, Sir William

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

    Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Wise, Frederick

    Hood, Joseph

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Pratt, John William

    Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Purchase, H. G.

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Rae, H. Norman

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

    Yeo, Sir Alfred William

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Reid, D. D.

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Remnant, Sir James

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Renwick, George

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Jodrell, Neville Paul

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    McCurdy.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Grundy, T. W.

    Myers, Thomas

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    O'Grady, James

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hayward, Evan

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

    Spencer, George A.

    Briant, Frank

    Hirst, G. H.

    Swan, J. E.

    Bromfield, William

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Cairns, John

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Irving, Dan

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Tootill, Robert

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Waterson, A. E.

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Kennedy, Thomas

    Wignall, James

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lunn, William

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Gillis, William

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Mills, John Edmund

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. G. Thorne and Dr. Murray.

    Mr. NEWBOULD: I beg to move, to leave out paragraph (f).
    928
    This paragraph deals entirely and exclusively with arc lamp carbons. There

    929
    is only one maker of arc lamp carbons in this country, and it is only a very subsidiary side of their business. The company is the General Electric Company, which deals in the manufacture of many other articles. It is quite true that during the War they developed this side of their business at the request of the Government, and I think it is quite obvious that the Government is under some obligation to them on that account. I earnestly hope they will keep that obligation, though not in the form proposed in this Resolution. If there is only one firm making these arc lamp carbons there are three general bodies of users. There are the municipalities, which use them for street lighting, there is the photographic industry, which uses them extensively, and there is the cinema industry, which uses them in projectors and studios. I propose to give the views of these three types of users in regard to this proposal. I have a number of letters from the various users. The first is from the Westminster Engineering Company, perhaps the principal manufacturers in this country of arc lamps. They say:
    "We are large users of carbons for arc lamps and our 'Westminster' lamps are used throughout the world for photo-printing, etc. We sincerely trust that there will be no restriction on the importation of carbons, as it is quite impossible to secure satisfactory supplies in this country, especially for our 125 and 126 pattern projection lamps. For the former we use 5 millimetre diameter carbons, and order 30,000 at a time; this quantity now being on order from America."
    Then we come to the really important point. They say:
    "The General Electric Company, after repeated efforts to make these during the War, stated definitely that they could not continue to supply owing to technical difficulties."
    I believe there is an exceptional reason why this should be left out. The only makers of these carbons in this country say that for technical reasons they are unable to supply the orders received. The Westminster Engineering Company go on to say:
    "We found that with the English carbons there was more smoke and the arc travelled along the surface causing serious trouble, also that they were not very accurate in dimensions and rough on the surface. We also have considerable trouble with the larger carbons. … We are asked over and over again by our customers for the American carbons. We exceedingly regret
    930
    having to make the above statement as we should certainly prefer to order in this country, but for various reasons it does not seem possible to compete with the Americans. Before the War the German carbons were even better. To restrict the importation, therefore, would unnecessarily interfere with the proper working and efficiency of our lamps, many thousands of which are now in use in this country alone. We have no objection to our name being mentioned in connection with the above matter."
    I come to the photo printers. Here is a letter from one of the principal firms, who were printers to the Government during the War, and, so far as I know, are still printers to the Government. They say:
    "We are whole-hearted supporters of national industries and always regret to find that any article which can be made in this country is being purchased from abroad. There are, however, cases in which it is impossible to procure the necessary support to turn out the article required, and the production of photographic carbon is an instance in point. We have used every endeavour to secure a satisfactory photographic carbon from manufacturers in this country, but in all cases the foreign carbon, especially that made in Germany, has given the best results. The next in quality is the American. Even under a heavy duty, we still think it would be advantageous and economical for users of photographic lamps to buy the foreign carbon."
    If that is true, the object of the 33⅓ per cent. duty will fail, because it will not supply the Government at the time of the next war with the article they want. On the showing of these people, it will still be cheaper to buy the foreign carbon even at the enhanced price. I shall be glad to hand the correspondence over to the Minister in charge of the Bill, so that he may see the bona fides, because I am not proposing to mention all the names of the firms who have written to me in confidence. Another firm of arc lamp manufacturers writes:
    "We have found the quality of English-made carbons is in no way equal to that obtained from Germany, Austria and the United States. We have not, since the commencement of the War, purchased any supplies of carbons from Germany or Austria. We were compelled by the special Government Committees to purchase quantities of British-made carbons during the War, when the import restrictions were in force, but we had much trouble with these due to the inferior quality. It is a matter of common knowledge in the trade that the business in arc lamps is rapidly decreasing, largely caused by the higher prices and the comparatively poor quality of the bulk of the carbons now available. The so-called English arc-lamp carbon industry is entirely in the hands of one firm. We feel that any

    931
    import duties on American carbons will result in the total extinction of the remaining arc-lamp business, as the addition of a high duty to the present heavy cost of freight from America, will probably establish a virtual monopoly of the arc-lamp carbon trade in the hands of the one English firm."
    Therefore, you are destroying a very valuable industry in this country, the manufacture of arc lamps, in order to protect arc lamp carbons, which you may want at some future time, but which you will not get, because this tariff will not be sufficient to keep out the foreign carbons, and when the next war comes, if it ever does come, you will be relying on an inferior article supplied in the home country. I have several letters from similar firms of arc lamp manufacturers. Here is a letter from the City of London Electric Lighting Company. They say:
    "We cannot believe that those responsible for this measure are aware of the difficulties in carrying out arc lighting with English carbons. We fear, therefore, that the proposed tax will be an additional burden, and add even one more obstacle to the cheapening of electric supply for arc-lighting purposes."
    The city electrical engineer of one of our great cities says:
    "British consumers' interests will be very adversely affected if we are not able to get German carbons. British makers cannot make these carbons satisfactorily, as we have found by our own experience. If they could make them, then the question would assume a different aspect; but it seems very inequitable that arc-lamp carbon users should be taxed in order to support manufacturers who are not competent to manufacture. This would simply mean a perpetuation of unsatisfactory material."
    One of the greatest city corporations in this country sends a letter stating:
    "It would mean an additional cost to the Department of £1,385 per annum, which, of course, would fall on the ratepayers. A further increase in the cost of the carbons would accelerate the rate at which arc lamps would be replaced by gas-filled lamps, with a consequent falling off in the demand for arc-lamp carbons."
    The only firm who make these carbons in this country are interested much more largely in a different form of street lighting, and if they got a monopoly in the manufacture of carbons, they might endeavour to destroy forms of street lighting that require these carbons so that they might supply a lamp of a different form of lighting which they manufacture. I submit that it is an
    932
    impossible position in which to place the ratepayers in our municipalities and in which to place the manufacturing community of this country, that they should be in the hands of one firm who are interested in manufacturing another article, which is competitive, and it might be in their interests to put the arc lamp out of business altogether. What is all this for? It is because the Government require these carbons for searchlights. Surely, if they require carbons for searchlights they should set up their own factory and manufacture the carbons, and they should take jolly good care that they have the finest carbon in the world. They should not be satisfied with the inferior article which I contend I have proved they are now getting, and which they will get when they require these articles in large quantities should another war unfortunately occur. The engineer of another great city corporation writes:
    "We use carbons of foreign manufacture entirely, and, therefore, the proposed 33⅓ per cent. duty will have an injurious effect on that portion of our industry relating to electric, street lighting."
    These are corporations who have to consider the cost of lighting the streets in the interests of the ratepayers. Here is another letter from a big firm, who are on the list of Government contractors:
    "As large users of carbons we are entirely averse to any legislation which would tend to place the whole of the carbon production in the hands of practically one maker in this country. Such procedure is obviously to the disadvantage of the consumer. We have over 120 branches in the United Kingdom in practically all of which arc lamps are used, and we are perfectly satisfied with the quality of the imported carbons."
    I do not need to read any more letters, although I have a very large budget. I have said nothing about the particular industry of which I know something, and that is the cinema industry. We use these carbons in projection. We may not be concerned particularly about the price. It is not so much the price, although that is very considerable. It would cost the industry a very large sum of money, I think £70,000 a year, if this duty goes on. That would be the increased cost if we have to buy other carbons. The main thing is that we must have the finest carbons. I could tell the difference between a British and an American carbon when burning, even with my eyes shut. I

    933
    could tell the British carbon by the noise it makes. When the British carbon is burning there is a fizzing and spluttering noise going on the whole of the time, which is very injurious and also annoying to the audience who are trying to watch the pictures. Anybody who is an expert in these matters can tell the difference between a British and a foreign carbon with his eyes closed, merely by the noise. Then, again, we get a much more powerful and more even, whiter, purer light from the foreign carbon than we do from the British carbon.
    8.0 P.M.
    We all agree that the carbons are essential to the country in time of war. If the Government want things that are required, as they are undoubtedly required for searchlights, it is essential that they should have the best. I say quite emphatically that I am perfectly certain that by this 33⅓ per cent. duty on foreign carbons the Government will find when the next war comes that they are in an infinitely worse position than they are to-day, because they will have been subsidising a firm which is going to supply them permanently with an inferior article. I cannot for the life of me see where the incentive will be to improve the quality of the article. So independent are this firm in regard to the quality of their article that, when asked if they would send a representative to show a certain user how to burn their carbon satisfactorily, they said it was not worth their while, that it was only a subsidiary side of their business, and they are not interested in proving the quality of these carbons. This duty is merely going to make it much more expensive. It is going, probably, to interfere tremendously with the manufacturer of arc-lamps. It is going to induce many municipalities to substitute other forms of street-lighting for arc-lamp lighting, and by this asburd, expensive, tortuous method the Government are pursuing, they are upsetting a number of industries, about which they do not care and about which they know nothing. It would be an inexpensive thing for the Government to make its own carbons. My own firm employs the same man who advised the Government about carbons for their searchlights during the War. Why do they not employ that man and employ others to undertake research work to improve the carbons and
    934
    then set up the manufacture of their own carbons? I guarantee that would have a satisfactory and an adequate supply without tampering with things they do not understand at all.
    Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present—
    Mr. KILEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The very interesting speech to which we have just listened shows, I think, very clearly what little thought the Government have given to many of the commodities which they have included in the Resolution. The hon. Member for Limehouse (Sir W. Pearce) laid great stress upon the commodities which we were then discussing as having been placed among the key industries after careful consideration by a Committee, of which, I think, Lord Balfour was chairman, and the hon. Member for Limehouse a member. But it will interest the House to know that that does not apply to the subject we are now discussing. This was not included or recommended to be included by that Committee, but it has received some backing from some quarter, and it has managed to get into the list. It would be interesting to ascertain for what reason it has been put in the list. Is it because it is a commodity which is so essential that the Government cannot manage to go into another war without a supply? If so, in view of the very limited quantity of this commodity they would require, is there any serious obstacle to their doing what they should do for the purpose of carrying on war successfully, and that is to obtain a quantity of the finest article they can get for that purpose and store it, if necessary? But in this case they are not doing anything of the kind. We are told there is only one firm in this country who are manufacturing this article. This one firm, so we are advised, are making an article of such a character that it is far inferior to what can be imported, and, so far as one can understand, they are making very little serious effort to improve the quality of the article.
    We have been advised it is not a question of price, because the articles imported from America and Germany in competition actually cost a good deal more than the price charged by this firm, which has a monopoly in this country.

    935
    If that is the case, what has happened in the past to prevent this English firm improving the quality and turning out an article as good as their competitors? If it is a question of their wanting additional plant or additional assistance, I again commend to the Minister in charge that he should adopt the principle adopted in certain other cases, and make use of one of the many funds they have got at their disposal for scientific research or development, or out of funds used for investment. If they add one more to the list of articles in which they have invested, it is a matter of comparatively small detail. If this is so essential, why should this country have to put up with the worst article that can be produced? Case after case has been recited by my hon. Friend of manufacturers who find it necessary in their work to have the best article. He has told us how they have been hampered by having to have this inferior article, and yet, under the proposal which the Government now ask us to pass, they intend to bolster up one firm only, and they intend to put to the utmost inconvenience all the users of these carbons, and place them at a very serious disadvantage, in order to advance the interest of this one combine, about whose interest they seem to be so much concerned. That, I suggest, is quite the wrong way to go about the thing. If they are really interested in this article, there are numerous ways in which they can proceed to attain their object, but to inflict, as they propose, an injury on all users for that purpose, is, in my judgment, unwise.
    Captain W. BENN: I am not surprised at the hesitation of the hon. Member representing the Government in rising to reply, but I was rather anxious to hear what the defence was going to be. I have no doubt the general defence will be the usual one, when the Leader of the House will appear and move, "That the Question be now put." The Government have taxed spectacles, and now they are taxing light. It is their way of making this country the most scientific and up-to-date for war. It is a tax on the taxpayer. These carbons are used in lighting our streets, and the result of this duty will be that the heavy burden already on ratepayers will be still bigger, because they cannot use these English carbons. The engineers of three of the biggest cities in
    936
    the United Kingdom—Manchester, Glasgow, and Dublin—have declared that they depend on the imported carbons, and that they cannot use the English manufactured carbons. Therefore, the Government, in order to get searchlight carbons, which are necessary, and of which they should have a supply in case of war, propose to put a tax on the lighting of streets. Then they propose to put a tax on photographs, which is another way of promoting scientific research in this country. There is hardly a thing used in scientific research which is not included in the Resolution. That is the Government's conception of how to make ours the best-equipped country in the world. I presume the hon. Gentleman has some defence to offer. I do not know what the defence will be. It could not be more charming, but I hope it will be rather more cogent than the arguments the hon. Gentleman has put forward in defence of the other articles.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The reason I did not rise before was that I thought my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Benn) was going to rise to contribute arguments of even greater force, which I should be left to answer, but that is not the case. The hon. Members who moved and seconded this Amendment are under a complete delusion as to the reason carbons are included. It is not in the least because it is desired, on the part of the Government, to bolster up any particular firm. The suggestion that we were promoting the interests of a particular firm, which was interested in a lamp which was likely to be successful in street lighting, can be disposed of in a single moment. If we wanted to bolster up the interests of the particular firm we could have included the form of light in which it is interested, namely, the half-watt lamp, as has been suggested in some quarters of the House as one of the industries to be protected, and which had some claim to be protected. But that is not included in the proposal. The object of protecting arc-lamp carbons is perfectly simple, as we cannot have searchlights without them.
    Mr. NEWBOULD: I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent me. I never suggested they desired to bolster up a firm. I said that would be a consequence of their action.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I quite accept that, but I think the hon. Member for Whitechapel carried that a little carried that a little further.
    Mr. KILEY: You are giving them a monopoly.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I think the hon. Member is hardly accurate. If we wished to give them a monopoly, we should have given them protection for the half-watt lamp. But that is not protected. As a matter of fact, the half-watt lamp will almost certainly supersede the arc-lamp for street lighting. I understand it is more economical and much more efficient than the arc lamp, from whatever source you get it. Therefore, if that is true, it is certainly superseding them all over the country, and it is inaccurate to say that ratepayers will be ruined, because, in the ordinary course, municipalities, no doubt, will adopt the half-watt lamp instead of the arc-lamp.
    Captain BENN: They can do it now.
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: They are doing it.
    Captain BENN: Then why make them do it?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: We are acting on the ground that these carbons are necessary for searchlights. We cannot put a store of them aside for obvious reasons, which my hon. and gallant Friend knows. During the War new improvements in searchlights were coming on, new and improved forms of carbons were required, and we were making them. The Admiralty are generally an extremely critical body. They often look askance at what satisfies the commercial community, and when one finds the Board of Admiralty enthusiastic about the arc light carbons which are produced for searchlights, I am sceptical as to whether the carbons in use in street lighting and for cinematograph purposes are quite as inferior as the hon. Member who moves this Amendment suggests. With regard to cinematographs, I understand that there are at present in use in cinema theatres considerably more British carbons than foreign carbons.
    Mr. NEWBOULD: Then why protect them?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: It may not be so in the hon. Member's firm, but we
    938
    must not confine ourselves to one aspect, however attractive, nor do I think that ratepayers would be misled by the arguments adduced. In any case, the half-wat lamp will probably supersede the arc lamp carbon, but if it does not, I wonder whether the ratepayers would rather pay the proposed duty, with the small cost which it involves, on the carbons used in arc lamp lighting in the streets or be told that we were to be powerless against hostile aircraft because there were no searchlights available.
    Mr. NEWBOULD: You will guarantee the result?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Yes, I will guarantee results in a satisfactory searchlight such as was produced throughout the War. Everybody who knew the use of our searchlights throughout the War knew that they were satisfactory, and if the Board of Admiralty are satisfied that fact is of more force than the objections of the hon. Gentleman. It is suggested that the situation could be dealt with first of all by a subsidy. Then it is suggested let us go one stage beyond the subsidy, and set up a national factory. You cannot argue at this stage with all our experience of what State factories have been like, and with the financial stringency which prevails at present, that you are to spend money in setting up great State factories instead of employing the perfectly adequate firms which there are.
    Major ENTWISTLE: The Minister who has just spoken based his whole case on the ground that these lamps are required for searchlight purposes in time of war and he poured scorn on the suggestion that you could go to the ratepayers and ask them to do without these lamps, and in case of war not have the most efficient searchlight. He also poured scorn on the suggestion that the State should manufacture these arc lamp carbons. If he will only carry this argument a little further we might have reasons for doing away with the Woolwich Arsenal and giving the whole manufacture of munitions and guns and other things which are made by the Government into the hands of private individuals, and particularly into the hands of private individuals who have a monopoly such as we have been told exists in the case of these arc lamps. That argument appears to me to be astounding. If this is wanted

    939
    for war purposes by all means let the Government do it.
    We hear that the Admiralty are entirely satisfied with these carbons, but the chief engineers of the Manchester, Glasgow, and Dublin Corporations, which use arc lamps for street lighting, are not satisfied with these British-made carbons. We have it on the authority of the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Newbould), who has considerable experience of and is also a great authority on cinematograph work. I have also here a letter from the Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association of Great Britain to say that these British-made carbons are inferior, and they pass a strong resolution on the subject as being consumers of 10,000,000 feet of these carbons. If the Minister is right in saying that the Admiralty are satisfied with these arc lamps, all I can say is that it is a commentary on the officials of the Admiralty. We know from experience that officials in Government Departments have been slow in acknowledging that the particular goods which they use are not of the best type. We had any amount of experience of that in the War, and I believe that these arc lamp carbons for searchlight purposes in the War were actually obtained from Germany through Holland, and this very company which has a monopoly in these carbons was a German firm originally, if my information is correct.
    The Government have been told that the consequences of this import duty will be to give a monopoly to one firm. How; can they justify that? The only suggestion was, that they can make out that it is to the general benefit of a large number of manufacturers in this country for the purpose of giving employment, but we have, practically, only one firm producing these carbons. We are used to a great many things in these days of Protection, and of the influences to which the Government are subject, but it is a, scandalous thing that the Government should endeavour now to pass legislation the effect of which will be to give a monopoly to one firm. I cannot see that when they are informed as to the result of that legislation they will persist with it, and if it is not effective for the purpose for which these Resolutions are made, namely, to protect our British industries, the only result would be to
    940
    increase the price to the users of the foreign-made carbons. The cinematograph industry has already got to cope with an enormous cost, and it is a source of revenue to the country in the form of Entertainment Duty, and if you increase charges that will hurt that industry, you will decrease the number of cinemas and, with the smaller attendance, you will thereby cause a loss of revenue to the country. In addition, you will be depriving the country of one of the most popular and, I think, one of the most beneficial forms of entertainment which we have.
    We hear a great deal of industrial unrest in these days, and it is unwise of the Government to put a tax on any form of public entertainment so innocuous and so beneficial as that provided by the cinematograph industry. They are unanimous in this. They passed the strongest Resolutions against the imposition of this duty which will deal a serious blow at the cinema industry, without any compensating advantages to the country.
    Arc lamp carbons form an indispensable part of the raw material of an industry suffering from the entertainment duty and the general increase in cost without being in a position to recoup itself to anything approaching an adequate increase in price. That is a resolution passed by the Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association of Great Britain and Ireland. What is the position of the Government? Do they want the carbons to be manufactured by none but English fimrs? If that is their position, and it is the only logical object in imposing this duty, it means putting this industry into the hands of one firm and giving them a monopoly, and that firm, according to all evidence except that of the Admiralty, is producing goods which are inferior to those which can be obtained from abroad. If that is not the object, what is the result? A trifling revenue will be produced, and the consumers will be mulcted in the heavily increased price. No case has been made out for the restriction. We have very abbreviated replies from the Government's representative. These things are done very casually. No weight of argument is attemuted in support of the Government's extraordinary proposals. Some

    941
    concession ought to have been made in reply to the strong case which the opposition has made out.
    Mr. A. HOPKINSON: There is one technical point on which I must say something. The argument of the Minister was that in street lighting the half-watt incandescent lamp will entirely supersede the arc lamp, and that therefore municipal and lighting authorities need not bother even if their arc-lamp carbons increase in price. He is under a complete misapprehension. The old-fashioned single arc, which is used entirely in naval searchlights for some particular reason, is inefficient compared with the half-watt incandescent lamp. But there is another lamp, the flame arc-lamp, of which the same thing cannot be said with any certainty. It is still an open question, I think, whether greater economy is not to be got in outside lighting, street lighting, by the use of flame arc-lamps, with carbons of various compositions and quality, than can ever be got by the plain incandescent half-watt lamp. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has, probably quite unwittingly, misled the House in making that assertion.
    There is another point which has hitherto not been mentioned. If you give the English manufacturer—in this case one single firm—what is practically a monopoly of the arc-lamp carbon industry in this country, and if you remove the foreign competition which has hitherto stimulated him to constant improvements in design and manufacture, we shall undoubtedly fall behind our foreign competitors in the manufacture of these carbons. That argument applies to every other article scheduled in the Bill. Speaking as a manufacturer, not of arc-lamp carbons, but of machinery which has to contend with very serious competition, I say that I should never in any circumstances alter my designs if I was free entirely from foreign competition. If the foreigner cannot compete with me and bring out better designs than my own, why should I go to the expense and trouble of improving my designs? If the 33⅓ per cent. duty was put on competing machines of the kind that I manufacture, I should go on from year to year without any improvement, knowing that the practical prohibition of my foreign rivals in the market at home would save me from the necessity of taking
    942
    thought and of losing money in experiments. It requires a very high degree of scientific skill to make an improvement in a simple article like an arc-lamp carbon which has been worked on for many years. If we protect the English manufacturer, in this case practically a monopolist, from foreign competition, we shall find that if ever a European war breaks out again our enemies and competitors abroad have probably developed the manufacture of arc-lamp carbons to a greater degree than we have done.
    Mr. SPENCER: One of the most remarkable things in the Debate to-night and on the Committee stage has been the inability of the Government to state a case in favour of these Resolutions. A case has been made out for articles being required by the Army or the Navy, and probably in some cases in the war that is to come. But no attempt has been made so far to establish a case for the protectection of these industries. I notice that a point which has been emphasised by the last speaker is also emphasised by several companies which have to use these carbons. They say that the last remaining competitive spur to the improvement of English quality will have gone if these Resolutions go through. As far as these things are concerned, a single company will have the monopoly, and there will be no incentive whatever for the company to improve the carbons they manufacture. A tariff war is being built up without any evidence to prove that it is necessary financially or commercially. Whatever advantage may be derived by the Navy from this process, I am not able to deal with, but I think I am right in saying that the disadvantages to other sections of the community will far outweigh the advantages to the Navy. The process that has been inaugurated by the Government in regard to these duties is the beginning of a system the end of which no man can see. We may have here a comparatively short list, but if it is once established we shall have more people knocking at the door and asking for the inclusion of their trade.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 75.

    Division No. 131.]

    AYES.

    [8.35 p.m.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Neal, Arthur

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Gould, James C.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Armitage, Robert

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Parker, James

    Atkey, A. R.

    Greer, Harry

    Pearce, Sir William

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Gregory, Holman

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Pratt, John William

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

    Purchase, H. G.

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Bigland, Alfred

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Remnant, Sir James

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Renwick, George

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Blair, Sir Reginald

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Rodger, A. K.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Briggs, Harold

    Hood, Joseph

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Carew, Charles Robert S.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Casey, T. W.

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Stevens, Marshall

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Stewart, Gershom

    Clough, Robert

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Taylor, J.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Kidd, James

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Waddington, R.

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Walton, J. (York, W.R., Don Valley)

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

    Dockrell, Sir Maurice

    Lorden, John William

    Warren, Sir Alfred H.

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Fildes, Henry

    Maddocks, Henry

    Wise, Frederick

    Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Mason, Robert

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Middlebrook, Sir William

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Gardiner, James

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Yeo, Sir Alfred William

    Gardner, Ernest

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Gilbert, James Daniel

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Dudley Ward.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Gillis, William

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Lunn, William

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

    Grundy, T. W.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Bromfield, William

    Hayday, Arthur

    Myers, Thomas

    Cairns, John

    Hayward, Evan

    O'Grady, James

    Cape, Thomas

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)

    Rae, H. Norman

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Irving, Dan

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Spencer, George A.

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Swan, J. E.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Kennedy, Thomas

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    944

    945

    Tootill, Robert

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Waterson, A. E.

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Wignall, James

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Mr. Briant and Mr. Newbould.

    Sir G. COLLINS: I beg to move after the word "Trade" ["Board of Trade"] to insert the words, "subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament."
    This is the first of two Amendments, and I agree that possibly the later Amendment raises a point of more substance than the one which I am now moving.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I understand the hon. Member is only moving the Amendment which appears in his name upon the Paper.
    Sir G. COLLINS: This Amendment raises an important subject as to the Board of Trade and the Advisory Committee, which the President of the Board of Trade announced would be appointed to determine the specific articles which should receive the benefit of the 33⅓ per cent. duty. My hon. Friends associated with me on these Benches consider that the House of Commons should be the ultimate authority to determine even this technical matter. An old Resolution and the most famous Resolution which ever came before this House contained the following words:
    "That the power of the Monarchy hath increased, is increasing, and should be diminished."
    I think the modern rendering of that old declaration might be put in the following words:
    "That the power of the bureaucracy has increased, is increasing, and should be diminished."
    It is from that standpoint I ask the House to add the words which appear in the Amendment so that Parliament itself can take into its own hands and out of the power of the Board of Trade to determine which of its subjects shall be taxed. During the War the House of Commons very readily abrogated its powers and transferred great powers into the hands of officials. This House readily accepted its transitory position.
    To-day, however, we have passed 2½ years from the time of the Armistice, and slowly during that period this House has fallen foul of the growing power of the bureaucracy, and little by little the House of Commons has determined that the Govern-
    946
    ment Departments are to be the servants of this House. We resent any Committee, even presided over by the present President of the Board of Trade, determining which articles should be taxed. Parliament is the ultimate authority, and it is to this House, and to this House alone, that all these questions should come. Many of us know full well during the War the great difficulties, and in some cases hardships, which arose when certain manufacturers were faced with officials of the Board of Trade and other Departments determining questions affecting their business. If the Government came to this House and asked for powers to add certain articles to the list, and showed cause why these articles should be added, I have little doubt the House would support the Government in that policy. Therefore, I ask the President of the Board of Trade to meet us on this question. In speaking on the Committee stage of these Resolutions, he considered that there might be a difficulty in an autumn Session. If articles have not received in bygone days this large protective duty for several years, there cannot be much hardship in asking the manufacturers of those articles to wait a certain number of months before Parliament determines, in its own good judgment, that these articles should be called key industries that should receive the large measure of protection which this Resolution gives to them. I appeal to the Government to accept the addition of these words.
    Colonel PENRY WILLIAMS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I agree entirely with the mover that this is a matter which should not be taken out of the hands of the House of Commons, and we have had rather startling proof of that in the last few days. We are in some difficulty in discussing this, because later on the Order Paper, when we are dealing with the second Resolution, we have an Amendment down in similar terms, that is, vesting in the House of Commons the power to make Orders under the second Resolution, and after consultation with Mr. Speaker we have come to the conclusion that it would be better to raise the question of the German Reparations Order on the second Resolution, rather than on the

    947
    first, and I understand from Mr. Speaker that he will, if time permits and he does not change his mind, allow a fair latitude of discussion on that question. I think it has come rather as a shock to hon. Members to know that the Government have entirely reversed the policy of this House on the question of reparations, and that they have admitted German goods to this country blatantly, openly, without consulting this House at all, and that they have done it under Section 5 of the Act.
    Mr. HOPKINSON: As I pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor on a similar occasion, at the present time a very definite attack is being made on the whole Parliamentary system. If there is one thing more important than another for this House to consider, it is the position of Parliament at the present time, and I think the right hon. Gentleman himself would agree with me fully when I suggest that it is essential above all things that no Department of State should put itself in a position where it can come under suspicion from ignorant or malignant people. If the Board of Trade are to be the deciding authority on the question of what industries should be protected and be given a monopoly of trade in this country, that Department will inevitably come under suspicion from malignant people. Last year we had two occasions in particular where that happened. If you have a Department of State setting up Committees to deal with subjects which give very valuable concessions indeed to certain individuals in this country, you will invariably have suspicion of the bonâ fides of the Department. I know the right hon. Gentleman himself would be the last to defend a Department putting itself in that position, particularly at the present time, and I should be glad if, in the discussion on this Amendment, he will tell us what safe guards there are against the possibility of that suspicion arising and in what way the position of his Department is to be made secure against attacks from outside. On the two questions of dyes and cellulose, last year, that suspicion arose in the very gravest form and did a vast amount of harm, not only to the reputation of the Department, but to the whole Parliamentary system, and therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman will explain to us what safeguards there are going to be and how the reputation of Parliament and of
    948
    the Department is going to be guarded in the event of those suspicions arising in the future, as they inevitably will if this most important point in industry, the actual setting up of monopolies in certain industries, is to be left to a Committee of the Department and not publicly discussed by this House.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The hon. Member who has just addressed the House is always twenty years behind the times. He is under the impression that the party to which I have the honour to belong is composed of either Bolshevists or bureaucrats. It happens to be neither. The real bureaucrats are there—on the Government Benches. The real Bolshevists are there opposite to us. The observations and arguments of the hon. Member in this Debate and in his various speeches should have been directed to that fact instead of, with a wave of the hand, to hon. Members on this side of the House. For what is the issue we have raised in this Amendment to-day? That issue is precisely the issue of democracy against bureaucracy. It is: Is this House, which is the best sort of representative of democracy that we can produce, to decide what taxes are to be paid by the community, what monopolies are to be set up, what industries to be protected, or is some Government official, not on that Bench opposite but sitting in skeleton form behind the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, to decide that the citizens of this country are to be taxed because these officials are so wise, so all-wise, as to be far wiser than Members of this House, representing various interests of the country, can possibly be?
    We know perfectly well what happens. This list as given in this Resolution is vague. It lacks precision. The Board of Trade officials will be the first to recognise that it lacks precision, and they will immediately start extending A, B, C, D., and so on to I, and thus runs the schedules to an unlimited length. Every single item in the schedule will be hard cash in the pockets of somebody. Every item added to a schedule or subtracted from it will mean fortunes made or fortunes lost. It will not unfortunately be the right hon. Gentleman who will have to draw up these schedules. They will be drawn up by clerks in his office. What happens? Let me explain to the House

    949
    what will happen in these cases. Permanent officials retire sometimes. When they retire they often become directors of companies and those companies are, naturally, often interested in the items in these extensive schedules. Directorships are not bribery, but they are a very substantial solatium to retired civil servants of not only the Board of Trade, or the India Office, but of other Departments. These considerations cannot possibly be absent from the mind of the civil servant.
    9.0 P.M.
    There is more than that. We all desire to start our sons in life. Many of us start our sons in business, as engineers it may be, as secretaries; and the sons of civil servants have to be started like the sons of other people. Here, too, there is all the bargaining and favouring that can be given to sons starting in business. Every business that has to deal with the Admiralty or the War Office knows perfectly well that it is to their advantage in this starting in life to employ the relations of civil servants. It is not done by any means in a scandalous way. Many of them start as premium pupils; some without premiums. Here you are putting the Board of Trade in the same position as these firms. You are saying that the Board of Trade or the officials shall have the right to say what industries shall be in these schedules. I know that I shall be told after having made this speech that I am casting scandalous imputations upon the civil servants of this country, but it is about time we spoke out. Human nature being what it is, civil servants, who are the most perfect of all of us, are not sufficiently perfect to avoid this sort of thing. If we have any faith in Parliamentary Government, or in this Amendment, we ought to see that this suspicion is not engendered, and that civil servants are not put in a position where they shall be suspected of these methods which do not altogether bear the light of day. Like my hon. Friend who proposed the Amendment, I feel that we ought to do everything now we can to put bureaucracy in its proper place as the servant of this House and not the master of the country. We want to restrict the powers of the Board of Trade to carrying out the orders of the House of Commons instead of making the House of
    950
    Commons carry out the orders of the Board of Trade. Everybody who believes in democracy must regret the tendencies of the present day. I hope there are some Members of the House who still believe in democracy left to protest against the development shown in this Bill of handing over these powers, which Parliament has always been extremely jealous of handing to anybody outside, of taxing the community, to a Government Department which not only thereby acquires the right to tax, but also the power to create valuable monopolies.
    Mr. BALDWIN: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the speeches made so far on this Amendment. I have listened, as I always do, with interest to my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken. He has alluded to us on this Bench as Bolshevists. I have spent almost the time of the rest of his speech in wondering whether he intended that observation as a compliment or not. Whether that be so or not, I think I had better come to the point at issue which is a very genuine one, and one, I think, that deserves very serious consideration. I am as anxious as anyone in this House to be free from what my hon. Friend (Mr. Hopkinson) has called ignorant and malignant suspicion. I should like also to be free from something which, if possible, it is still more difficult to be free from, and that is the suspicion of the learned and the beneficent.
    In his speech the hon. and gallant Gentleman said he was desirous that the Board of Trade should carry out the orders of the House of Commons. That is exactly what I hope will happen, and that, if and when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament and the Schedule appended to it is part of that Act of Parliament, that the schedule would be in the same words, so far as the key industries are concerned, as the list given of these key industries in the Resolution which we are now discussing. It is obvious, however, that for Customs House purposes we want something closer than that. I do not call it "extension," a word used by more than one speaker, because that would imply we meant to include articles of a different kind. I would rather call it definition of what exactly are the articles comprised within the Schedule passed by the House of Commons. In this country we are not used to tariffs. But in countries where

    951
    tariffs are in existence I understand that the usual practice is for the interpretation of the articles comprised in such schedules as this to be decided by the Customs Houses. In this country the usual course, I believe, is to appeal to the Courts.
    The proposition put before the House in this Bill is that the Board of Trade will have power to give a definition and the lists will be published forthwith. This was done in the case of the dye industry. The same thing will be done under this Bill and within three months any person interested either in the inclusion or exclusion of an article in the definition may appeal not to the Courts—that matter was discussed and it was felt by those who prepared this Bill that it would be better not to have appeals to the Courts, which are lengthy and expensive—but to a referee appointed by the Treasury, whose decision on the matter as to whether the definition is correct or not shall be final and conclusive. If an article has been scheduled, and the duty has been paid, the moment the referee's verdict is given, if it is against the inclusion of that article, it will be excluded, but without prejudice to anything which may have been done in the interval.
    I do not wish to say anything at this moment upon a similar Amendment which will come under discussion on the Second Resolution. I quite agree with what the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) said, that there is much more substance in the second than in the first one. I do not expect for a moment that the explanation I have given will be satisfactory to hon. Members opposite, but I do see myself a very real distinction between this process of definition carried out as I have explained, and the duty laid down in the Bill, which deals with various kinds of dumping. When we come to that question I shall have something to say upon it.
    With regard to the Amendment now before us, I feel convinced that for this limited purpose with regard to key industries, when you have the Schedules approved by Parliament, the procedure we have laid down is a useful procedure. It is one swift in its execution which is a matter of great importance, and I think it is fair. I am quite sure that it will be far more satisfactory to industries to have a referee who is able to give a decision
    952
    on a technical matter of this kind quickly rather than to have brought up perhaps after a long interval in this House, discussions of the nature of this and that article in regard to which necessarily very few hon. Members would be qualified to come to a decision, and where moreover there would be a tendency to be guided by party sympathies rather than have it given by one who decides on technical knowledge. I regret that I cannot meet this Amendment, but I thank my hon. Friend for having brought it before the House, because I think it is an important matter.
    Captain W. BENN: I am sure I am speaking for my hon. and gallant Friend who moved this Amendment, and my hon. Friend who seconded it, when I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the courteous and painstaking way in which he has examined the proposal which has been put forward. The right hon. Gentleman, however, seems to me to have produced only one argument of substance against this proposal, that is the delay it might cause. We are familiar enough with the procedure of the House to know that an Order is presented and laid on the table of the House for so many days, and I think it would be easy to show that this would not delay the procedure any more than the process of appealing to a referee appointed by the Treasury. I submit the argument that delay would be caused has not sufficient weight to dispose of this very substantial Amendment.
    What do we mean when we say that the Board of Trade may from time to time make an order saying what articles are to be comprised in the list? That list is drawn up in very general terms, and it is quite clear that within the scope of the words of the Resolution the Board of Trade might introduce a great number of valuable concessions to the trades concerned. We have already presented a monopoly in the manufacture of arc lamp carbons to one firm. Under this proposal pressure can be brought to bear upon the Board of Trade in order to prevent competition. The right hon. Gentleman says the proposal is strictly defined in the terms of the Resolution, but we know from our experience that the Board of Trade always takes the very widest possible view of the powers conferred in this Resolution.
    Not long ago a Bill was passed for preventing German goods from coming

    953
    into this country, and recently the Board of Trade made an order opening the gates wide for every kind of German goods to be imported. If the Board of Trade use their powers in that way, if they can make a carriage road through the centre of an Act of Parliament which was passed to keep German goods out of this country, surely we are right in entertaining some suspicion of the way they will exercise the powers given under this Resolution. There is a great deal of difference in giving taxing powers to a Department, and giving it to the House of Commons. If ever the bad day arrives when corrupt influences are brought to bear on the House of Commons, the electors have a remedy in their own hands, and they can reject their representative, but it is much more difficult to stamp out corruption in a public Department.
    That is the reason why this House has always cherished, the powers it possesses of taxing the people of this country. There is no power in the Standing Orders that is more carefully fenced in than this power to impose a charge. You are not allowed to put words in a Bill imposing a charge unless a special Committee has considered it or a Money Committee, and it must not only have been considered in Committee but it must be reported from the Committee to the House. They are very real powers which make the House of Commons influence felt in the country. They are powers which should be retained in our hands for the sake of the credit of the House which has suffered perhaps owing to the great growth of bureaucracy. We must retain in our hands the power to tax the people, and on that ground I submit the House should support this Amendment.
    Major M. WOOD: I think one should look at the past history of this Bill. If we go back to the end of the War we will find that a determined effort was made by the Board of Trade to do all that it is proposed to do by this Bill without the intervention of Parliament at all. An Act was passed in 1876, called the Customs Consolidation Act, and the Government went out of its way to use that Act to exclude particular materials and articles which it thought ought to be kept out in the interests of people who were pressing upon them the desirability of special treatment for key industries. What was the end of that particular
    954
    effort? It was brought up in the Courts, and Mr. Justice Sankey declared that the whole procedure was illegal, and that the Government had no right to tax the public in the way it was doing. The Government did not even appeal against that decision, although it made a great show of saying it was entitled to do all it purported to do. After having been defeated in its first effort the Government attempted another. It attempted to smuggle through this House of Commons a Clause in the Indemnity Act which would give it power to do exactly the same thing as was attempted to be done under the Customs Consolidation Act, and to make out any list that it thought fit which would enable the Board of Trade to exclude any particular article which Protectionists in this country thought ought to be excluded from the country. Again the Government was defeated, and I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, having been defeated in his design by the intervention of the Law Courts, should now, when the matter is again before the House, go out of his way to oust the jurisdiction of the Law Courts which have been our only protection against the inroads of the Government in this respect. The Law Courts have compelled him to come to the House of Commons to do what it was attempted to do without authority.
    That is why to-day the right hon. Gentleman is trying to oust the authority of the Law Courts. He suggests that, although he is going to oust the jurisdiction of the Law Courts, he is proposing to set up some other judicial authority which he calls a Referee. But what is the use of appointing a Referee to do duties for the performance of which judges are already appointed? On the ground of expense alone I would object to the suggestion of the appointment of another official. It is the fashion of the Government to create officials. They cannot allow a chance to pass by. Every time they get an opportunity they create another post. This Referee, however, is going to be a mere creature of the Government. He will be appointed by the Government and presumably will be dismissible by the Government. A judge cannot be dismissed by the Government. Mr. Justice Sankey cannot be dismissed for deciding against the Government on a law case. But this Referee will be a mere creature

    955
    of the Government. There is to be no appeal from him, and to suggest that such an official should take the place of judges who are appointed for life is to my mind quite absurd. Look at what this Referee is likely to be called upon to do. If anyone will examine the list embodied in the first Resolution he will see the enormous powers which may be laid upon the Board of Trade and upon this Referee. For instance, in the first line it speaks of "optical elements." What is meant by an "optical element?" It seems to me to take the form of an almost indefinite expansion of the word. It has been suggested that spectacles are not included in this Sub-section. But suppose the Board of Trade should subsequently make an order that they are to be considered optical elements for this purpose. Is it possible to hope that the Referee would say that that was beyond the powers given here?
    Take another case, that of permanent magnets. I am not an authority on magnetoes or magnets, but I know there has been correspondence over this particular part of the Resolution, and it has been suggested that the inclusion of permanent magnets will give a protection to the industry far beyond what is necessary or what was intended to be given in order to set up the industry in this country. It seems to me that permanent magnets can be made to include almost anything beyond what is required for motor cars. The first three subsections end with the words "and other." For instance, there is the term "other optical instruments "; and again, "other laboratory porcelain." There we have an opportunity given to the Board of Trade to exercise their powers, and they are going to do it without any really effective control by this House of Commons. What is the objection of the right hon. Gentleman to submitting his case to the Law Courts? It is the fashion which the present Government are continually indulging in to set up some sort of outside authority to take over a particular duty which hitherto has been exercised by the Courts. It does not, in my opinion, suggest that they have very great confidence in the Courts when they are continually setting up some kind of extra judicial referee to do work which the judges have been appointed to do and are, in fact, being paid to carry out. I
    956
    hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to put in some words here, or if he cannot do that, will promise to put them in the Bill which will follow, and thus prevent these continual inroads by the executive upon the powers of Parliament.
    Dr. MURRAY: This is an attempt to produce taxation by peroration. I drew attention in some other remarks to the fact that the important thing in these Resolutions was not what was in them but the things which were not mentioned in them; those things that were in the peroration in every sentence of these paragraphs. Of course, coming from a Government presided over by the Prime Minister, what would one expect but taxation and legislation by peroration? The only wonder is that we have not some mention of the Welsh hills. I object to this form of taxation. If there is one thing which absolutely needs to be as clearly as any of the microscopes mentioned here could define it, it is the subject of taxation, and the things upon which we are to be taxed? We spend days here, sometimes, at any rate hours, discussing whether a penny should be put on or taken off tea, or sugar, or any other commodity of that sort. Why should the power to define what objects are to be taxed be left to some obscure official appointed by the Treasury? There seems to be some great virtue in an official if he is appointed by the Treasury. We regard the Treasury as immaculate, and I almost subscribe to that doctrine. If, however, you once give opportunities of that sort to any Treasury official and put it in his power to define upon what the public ought to be taxed and upon what they ought not to be taxed you will undermine the whole basis of taxation in this country. The number of things which are placed in the power of an official of this sort to tax the public upon is enormous. In these Resolutions we have only some 50 articles, but the potential number of articles runs into the thousand, in optical instruments and glasses, instruments of precision, and things of that sort. In that book to which I have already referred there are about 2,000 optical instruments and articles of precision, and that does not touch other things included in these perorations.
    One talks about the corruption of Protection. A great argument which the Postmaster-General used to draw against

    957
    Protection in any shape or form was the possibility of our being corrupted in the Lobbies by people who came with various suggestions as to what we should or should not tax. If I went back upon the Postmaster-General's speeches, I could give you splendid perorations in that sense. After all, I would prefer that the public should be suspicious that Members of the House of Commons were amenable to influences of that sort rather than that we should put it in their power even to suggest that whispers of that character could be directed against our public officials. Thank God, we are free from that, and it would be a calamity to put it on anyone outside Government circles to say: "Someone went to the back door of the Board of Trade and got hold of a person he knew and got his instrument put on the list." That sort of thing would be bound to occur, however, and in all sincerity I would much prefer that such a thing should be said about the House of Commons rather than that the splendid character of the Civil Service should be slurred by any whisper or suggestions of that sort. I support the Amendment.
    Mr. SPENCER: I wish to protest against the unfair transference of the powers of this House to a Government Department. Whether or not the officials are qualified to carry out this taxation, it is not fair that the powers of taxation should be transferred to them. The real point is that the House of Commons is elected to carry out these particular functions, and they should not be transferred to a Department which may be very immaculate and have very wide knowledge, but whose members, after all, have not been elected to carry out those duties. A Committee sat and issued a Report in regard to the suggestions contained in these Resolutions. No one on that Committee knows by what method
    and by what means paragraph (f) has found its way into these Resolutions. It was not recommended by the Committee; but still we find it here. If a Committee has sat and issued a Report, and if the Government itself has made a certain addition for some reason or other, then the Government might tell us the reason why it has been influenced to include an article not recommended by that Committee. If the Government and the Cabinet as a whole is subject to outside influence and pressure, it would not be much to be wondered at if a Government Department were subsequently to be found subject to the same outside influence and pressure. The definition to be given in this category of articles, what is to be included in it, and to what extent it is to be extended—all that is the function of Parliament rather than of the Board of Trade.
    The Amendment does not limit the power of the Board of Trade one iota. The Board of Trade would more or less carry out these duties. The Amendment says that after it has drawn up the list of articles to be included in this Schedule it should be submitted to this House and to the other place, and should receive the sanction of both Houses before it comes into operation. That is not too much to expect. This House is elected to preserve what is, after all, its right and privileges. Hon. Members have been sent here for the purpose of protecting their constituents. They can best serve their constituents and protect their interests, not by transferring their power to permanent authorities, but by insisting on their right to criticise, examine, and decide on all forms of taxation before they become law.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: Ayes, 85; Noes, 181.

    Division No. 132.]

    AYES.

    [9.35 p.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Hayward, Evan

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Briant, Frank

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Bromfield, William

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Cairns, John

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Irving, Dan

    Cape, Thomas

    Gillis, William

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Waterson, A. E.

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Rodger, A. K.

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Royce, William Stapleton

    White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Sexton, James

    Wignall, James

    Lunn, William

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Spencer, George A.

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Swan, J. E.

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Myers, Thomas

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    O'Grady, James

    Tootill, Robert

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. G.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wallace, J.

    Thorne.

    NOES.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Greer, Harry

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Armitage, Robert

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Atkey, A. R.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Polson, Sir Thomas A.

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Pratt, John William

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Purchase, H. G.

    Barker, Major Robert H.

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Rae, H. Norman

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Remnant, Sir James

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

    Renwick, George

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Bigland, Alfred

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hood, Joseph

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Seddon, J. A.

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Briggs, Harold

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Starkey, Captain John Ralph

    Carew, Charles Robert S.

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Stevens, Marshall

    Casey, T. W.

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Stewart, Gershom

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Keiley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Taylor, J.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Kidd, James

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Clough, Robert

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Townshend, Sir Charles V. F.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Lorden, John William

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Waddington, R.

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir H. C. (P'nrith)

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Davidson, J.C.C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Warren, Sir Alfred H.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Maddocks, Henry

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    Mason, Robert

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Middlebrook, Sir William

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

    Fildes, Henry

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Wise, Frederick

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

    Forrest, Walter

    Morrison, Hugh

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Gardiner, James

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Neal, Arthur

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Gould, James C.

    Parker, James

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Pearce, Sir William

    Dudley Ward.

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Colonel P. WILLIAMS: On a point of Order. May I ask, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether you have considered, and are
    960
    going to call, a manuscript Amendment which has been handed in in the names of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member

    961
    for Central Aberdeen (Major M. Wood) and myself? It may be within your recollection that, the day before yesterday, there was an Amendment standing on the Paper on behalf of the Government in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, the object of which Amendment was to provide for securing information and returns from firms engaged in the protected industries to be set up under the Bill. For some reason or other, that Amendment was taken off the Paper, and it did not appear on the Paper this morning. Of course, when we saw it on the Paper, we thought that the Government Amendment was much better than anything we could draft, and, as the matter was exceedingly important, we did not put it down in the ordinary way. I should like your ruling as to whether our position, when the Bill comes to be discussed, will be protected by that Amendment, so that we may not be told that such provision, which is absolutely necessary, is not within the scope of this Financial Resolution and will impose an additional charge, and cannot, therefore, be moved or discussed when we reach the Committee stage of the Bill.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I do not think it will be possible for me, as Deputy-Speaker, to bind myself as Chairman of Committees when we come to Committee, much less the Deputy-Chairman. I am clear that on the face of it the Amendment is not necessary, because it proposes to supply only what I imagine is some ancillary machinery to the object of the Bill. Therefore my present view, for what it is worth, is that these words of the Resolution are not necessary, and that an Amendment of that kind would be in order. I presume the President of the Board of Trade put the
    Amendment down as lawyers say abundante cantela, but concluded, on reflection, that it is not necessary.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: There is another aspect of the case. The machinery which would be set up if the Amendment were accepted would entail a certain cost, and as these are Financial Resolutions, is there not some point in making ourselves quite safe by putting in Amendments so as to leave the Government free to put up the machinery and incur the cost if need be?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is not a taxing charge. It would not impose a charge in the sense in which the Resolution is proposed. It is conceivable, theoretically, that the work might be done voluntarily, and in any case it would be a matter for Committee of Supply, and not for Committee of Ways and Means.
    Captain W. BENN: May I ask whether as Deputy-Speaker, you would allow an Amendment of this kind on the Report stage without a money Resolution in Committee.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I should not like to project myself so far into the future.
    Colonel P. WILLIAMS: Should I be allowed to move the Amendment now, so as to secure a discussion at this stage?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is not one of the Amendments which was marked by Mr. Speaker for selection.
    Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 194; Noes, 74.

    Division No. 133.]

    AYES.

    [9.48 p.m.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

    Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Armitage, Robert

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Clough, Robert

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Atkey, A. R.

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Barker, Major Robert H.

    Briggs, Harold

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Davidson, J.C.C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Carew, Charles Robert S.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Casey, T. W.

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

    Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

    Forrest, Walter

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lorden, John William

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir H. C. (P'nrith)

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

    Smith, Sir Malcolm (Orkney)

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Gould, James C.

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Maddocks, Henry

    Starkey, Captain John Ralph

    Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

    Mason, Robert

    Stevens, Marshall

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Middlebrook, Sir William

    Stewart, Gershom

    Greer, Harry

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Taylor, J.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Morden, Col. W. Grant

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Morrison, Hugh

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Murchison, C. K.

    Townshend, Sir Charles V. F.

    Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Neal, Arthur

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Waddington, R.

    Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

    Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Parker, James

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

    Pearce, Sir William

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

    Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Hood, Joseph

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

    Warren, Sir Alfred H.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Polson, Sir Thomas A.

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Pratt, John William

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Purchase, H. G.

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Rae, H. Norman

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Wise, Frederick

    Johnson, Sir Stanley

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Renwick, George

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Rodger, A. K.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Kidd, James

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    McCurdy.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Spencer, George A.

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Swan, J. E.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hayward, Evan

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

    Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Briant, Frank

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Bromfield, William

    Irving, Dan

    Tootill, Robert

    Cairns, John

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Waterson, A. E.

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Wignall, James

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Lunn, William

    Wilson, James (Dudley)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wintringham, Thomas

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Gillis, William

    Myers, Thomas

    Glanville, Harold James

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

    O'Grady, James

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. G.

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Thorne.

    Second Resolution read a Second time.

    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I beg to move, after the word "That" ["That there shall be
    964
    charged"], to insert the words "for the period of one year from the passing of an Act for giving effect to this Resolution."

    965
    10.0 P.M.
    The House has by a substantial majority passed the first Resolution, and we have come to the second Resolution, which is regarded as even more important in many respects than the Resolution just passed. My Amendment would have the effect of limiting the operation of this proposal to the period of one year. I recognise that arguments of a substantial character must be offered for the course which we recommend. Many hon. Members will consider that a Labour representative especially is in some difficulty in taking a line of opposition to a proposal which appears to safeguard employment in this country, but the question which we have to ask is whether this Resolution will in the first place safeguard employment, and whether, in the second place, it would not be far better to rely upon what we call the general volume of trade and commerce. What are the reasons which principally move us in the direction of limiting this proposal to a period of one year? Hon. Members will agree that there is a vast difference between this Resolution and the one we have just passed. In connection with the second Resolution there are important Reports by Departmental and other Committees, which are of such a character as to enable us to say in this Debate that the Government have not in the main adopted many of the recommendations. We believe that it is more important that we should limit the mischief, as we regard it, to the shortest possible space of time. Take the first point of the anti-dumping proposals in the second Resolution. It is conceded that nobody has ever supplied a definition of dumping which would find universal acceptance. The definition of dumping which for the purpose of this Debate is accepted is a definition which indicates that we are to impose Customs duties of 33⅓ per cent. on articles which are offered for sale in this country at prices below the cost of production in the country of origin. I put it to any hon. Member in connection with an argument of that kind that we must have regard to existing world economic conditions, and surely it cannot be reasonably suggested that there are many countries in the world at the present time which are in a position to go on for any considerable period offering goods to other countries at prices
    966
    below the cost of production. It is utterly wrong and unreasonable to make any suggestion of that kind. Apart from that suggestion, we are thrown back at the very outset of this Debate to the important memorandum which has been issued by bankers and others to the effect that we must rely upon the maximum volume of trade, and get rid of all artificial and other restrictions and hindrances to trade.
    If that is the position, can we imagine anything more likely to interfere up to a point with the maximum volume of trade than the Resolution now proposed? Even if these arguments do not apply, most hon. Members will be inclined to agree that in this matter of dumping there is in all classes of the community a considerable confusion of thought. It is very well known that many articles are priced according to grades, and that for a limited period or for special purposes goods are offered at what appears to be a very low price, for what I would call sample purposes. That is not a tendency or policy which we wish to discourage in the world at the present time. It is a form of enterprise which should be encouraged in order to assist, as undoubtedly it will assist, in the recovery of world trade at the earliest possible moment. Across these ideas this Resolution cuts at once. There cannot be the slightest doubt that the Resolution will operate distinctly in restraint of trade at a time when we require the maximum freedom wherever we can possibly get it.
    The other argument is simple and relevant. An Advisory Committee of the now defunct Ministry of Reconstruction made certain recommendations with regard to dumping, and one would imagine that the proposals of the Government would be based upon the recommendations of that Committee, which included a good deal of expert service. So far, we have never had from the Government any very distinct statement as to what form the anti-dumping legislation is going to take, but there were at least three proposals which that Committee made, on which, I think, most hon. Members will agree we are entitled to information to-night. First of all, they said that the anti-dumping legislation should not apply to goods of a kind which were not manufactured in this country. In the second place, they suggested it should not apply to goods which were merely passing through this country in

    967
    process of transhipment. Of course, we recognise that a considerable volume of British business was done in this way. In the third place, they proposed that it should not apply to goods which were manufactured and had their origin in India or other British Protectorates or Possessions. On those very important points there is nothing in this Resolution to guide any Member of the House, and before we proceed to any Parliamentary Bill in the light of existing conditions in the world, we are entitled to ask what the Government proposes in that connection, and I think that would have a very important bearing indeed on our decision as to whether a time limit of one year should be imposed for the purposes of this Resolution.
    I want to refer very briefly to the other part of the proposal, namely, the part which deals with the collapsed exchanges. When the Minister of Health replied, as he was kind enough to do, to a speech I ventured to make on this matter when it was last before the House, he poured a good deal of ridicule on many of us, because he said we had failed to understand what exactly was happening in the creation of paper currency and money in Germany and other parts of the Continent, and he drew a picture of the printing presses busy in Germany manufacturing this currency, partly with the object of meeting their own needs, but partly with the object of meeting a situation which would, perhaps, directly or indirectly penalise Great Britain. May I suggest, in reply to that argument, that it must be obvious to all hon. Members that any country could only embark on a device of that kind with very great danger to its own success and prosperity? The inevitable effect would be to raise prices in Germany itself, to make internal conditions much more difficult, and perhaps to hinder, from many points of view, the recovery of German trade. What is the position—and I think it is a perfectly relevant question, having regard to the time limit of one year in this connection—what is the position in Germany as regards general prices at the present time? I know perfectly well, and I admit in the House to-night, it is very difficult to get exact information, but this information is given by representative authorities, and those who have been in touch with German conditions within very
    968
    recent times. They take a basic figure of 100, as applied to 1st January, 1920. They say that prices generally in Germany rose to about 150 from that basic figure as at 1st January, 1921, but up to the 7th May of the present year there has been a progressive decline from the 150 to 130, so that obviously there must be some grave discrepancy between the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman that the printing press is busy at work in an operation which must raise prices, and this conclusion by perfectly impartial experts regarding existing conditions in that part of the Continent.
    That is the first part of the reply I venture to offer to the Government proposal. But there is another reply, and I think it is very important indeed. I am going to ask my hon. Friend opposite what, I think, he and the House will regard as a very fair question. I am going to ask him to concede, first of all, that they had this matter of the collapsed exchanges investigated by a very representative Committee, under the chairmanship of Lord Cunliffe, and that they could not have had a Committee of greater experts in this matter. The second point I am going to put is that, from beginning to end of the Report of that Committee, there is not a single line or sentence which suggests the kind of remedy or solution embodied in this second Resolution now submitted to the House. What were the proposals that the Cunliffe Committee definitely recommended, not merely in a preliminary Report but in a final Report? They said they saw no reason to depart from their conclusion that the foreign exchanges would right themselves in due course if we got a sound system of currency in each country. I am not going to pass any judgment, because I am not competent, but I record the preliminary verdict of the Cunliffe Committee. But they went beyond that, and laid down two or three lines of remedy which again, I think, are of very great significance at the present time. They said in the long run the exchanges would be righted by increased production; in the second place, they would be righted by the cessation of Government and other borrowings and, in the third place, they would be righted by the very greatest public and private economy.
    Let us apply these three tests to the Government policy to-night. Is there any

    969
    hon. Member who will suggest that this restriction or restraint can make for increased production? I think it is impossible to argue an increased volume of trade in the light of these Resolutions. But, take the second case, the case of Government borrowings, or, as I shall call them, broadly and generally, Government commitments or obligations at large. What is the meaning of this proposal? There is no doubt whatever that it is a form of subsidy, a form of protection. It must cost the State something, directly or indirectly. It must penalise the economic stability and strength of the State, and to that extent it is going to impair the power of the Government to be done with borrowing, and get back to a strictly economic foundation. In the third place—and this seems even more important still—the Cunliffe Committee definitely lays down the greatest public and private economy, and here is a proposal which must increase prices and increase public and private expenditure. There is no defence for a device of this kind. If I believed for a single moment that these two proposals for anti-dumping and the collapsed exchanges were going to improve employment in Great Britain, I should support them with the greatest good-will. In my own place, in Edinburgh, with a comparatively small population, we have 15,000 unemployed. That is enough to make any city representative feel the weight and burden of this difficulty. But this is no remedy at all. We depend in this country, and the whole Continent of Europe and the world depend at the present time upon as much freedom as we can get. We cannot forget we are an island community, depending on the restoration of our overseas trade, which we must recover, and which this device distinctly impairs. For that reason, I think we are justified in asking that we should limit this to an experimental period of one year. I should not try it at all, but I am driven to attempt to limit it to one year, in the hope that one year will be quite sufficient to show the appalling fallacy of the Government in a matter of such great consequence to British employment, British security and everything else on which we depend.
    Mr. MYERS: I can add very little to the speech that has already been made by the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), but, in endeavouring to emphasise the point he has made, I would
    970
    suggest that the second of these Resolutions involves so many considerations that must in the very near future be varied considerably, owing to the economic influences and the industrial revival in various parts of the world for which we are hoping that there should be an opportunity given by this House to review these Resolutions in a shorter period of time than is specified in the Resolution itself, namely five years, and I would suggest that one year is ample time to give the opportunity for the working of these Resolutions. The probabilities are that before the end of the 12 months it may be as necessary to revise these Resolutions as it has been to revise the decision of the Government with respect to the German reparation. Before the end of 12 months we should discover that a protective tariff such as these Resolutions impose does not move in the direction of benefiting the wider interests of the community, but rather in the direction of sheltering trusts and consolidating monopolies against the public well-being. I think also that before the end of 12 months after the passing of the Act we should have found out that the protection of industries from the fears of foreign competition by tariffs was not an alternative to improve methods of production or an incentive in the direction of business organisation.
    All the evidence available goes to show that if industry has to be stimulated and production increased and trade encouraged it cannot be done by artificial methods of this character but only by education and research and greater energy and activity in the business operations in the business of the country, and that artificial methods of this character would eventually move in the direction of perpetuating slackness and industrial inefficiency. During the period of the War the industries of the country were very largely artificially swollen. They reached a magnitude which was abnormal. There is evidence at present that despite the fact that we are frequently told that there is a decline in the cost of living and a reduction in prices generally attempts are being made to foster and sustain prices at a war-time level, and the operation of the law of supply and demand and the interpretation of economic theories which, we have been led to believe, rule all these things, are being challenged by artificial methods. It is known that many indus-

    971
    tries rather than put their goods on the market at falling prices have sought the protection of the banker and secured overdrafts in order that they could hold certain portions of their stocks rather than let them go on the markets at the decreased prices. To attempt to sustain that swollen tendency by an artificial protection such as these tariffs propose to give the industries of the country is altogether unsound and illogical and opposed to all the tendencies of the time. The evidence goes to show that whenever Departments with monopolies are protected trusts are engendered and it is the community who has to pay every time, and there could be no other effect from the operation of these duties and tariffs than that the community in the long run will have to pay. It is desirable that we should keep in mind the possibility—it may be considered by some a remote possibility—that during the next five years there will be an opportunity for a change of Government. Nobody who has the well-being of the country at heart can contemplate any alternative Government recognising, accepting and perpetuating these duties. These protective duties being, as we believe, an injury to the community rather than a benefit, we presume that one of the first things an alternative Government would do would be to remove these duties. If we carry the proposals of the Government and impose this penalty on the community for a period of five years we pledge a future Government to the decisions and the works of the present Government. From many points of view many of us would hardly like to visit the sins of this Government upon future generations. The House and the country should have an opportunity of reviewing these decisions at the end of twelve months from the passing of the Act.
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond): The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) in his very lucid speech referred to some remark which I made at an earlier stage on these Resolutions regarding collapsed exchanges. I must confess that I am amazed to find Members of the Labour party treating this very serious question of collapsed exchanges in this purely academic manner. If we were not faced with an entire paralysis of trade due to the unfortunate coal dispute—
    Mr. MILLS: We had thousands and almost millions of unemployed before the coal dispute began.
    Sir A. MOND: We were faced by the fact that there were large numbers of unemployed before the coal strike, and you will have them after the coal strike if, owing to the entirely artificial condition of the exchange you allow a huge subsidy to be given to foreign manufacturers, which subsidy makes it impossible to produce in this country at any competitive price, and makes it equally impossible to get millions of men back to work, and you do not take any counter action. The hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Wedgwood) is far too good an economist not to be able to appreciate that we have never yet had any leading economist standing in the position in which we find ourselves to-day.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: You ought not to be standing there at all.
    Sir A. MOND: My hon. and gallant Friend is entirely wrong. If John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith or any other great Free Trader had been alive to-day, would any of them have been satisfied that in abnormal times like the present we should depend on normal economic laws? A more unscientific proposition has never yet been advanced. What is the effect of collapsed exchanges? No hon. Member can deny it has had the effect of giving a vast subsidy to manufacturers in the country where collapsed exchanges take place. I may illustrate that to hon. Members of the Labour party. The German Government was paying huge sums in March to, steel and iron manufacturers to enable them to export, with the consequence that the British manufacturer had to shut his steel foundries and pig-iron works, with consequent unemployment in these and other industries. Would they suggest that we should do nothing?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: The exports were less.
    Sir A. MOND: Does the hon. and gallant Member actually deny the fact, which every economist will admit, that the country with an abnormally low exchange is receiving indirectly an enormous subsidy on exports. My hon. Friend surely will not deny a proposition which is to be found in every shilling text book

    973
    on political economy. And, after all, that is not what the quarrel is about. There is the ascertained economic effect, and what we are really disputing about is the method of dealing with that effect. I shall come to that in one or two moments, but the collapsed exchanges do enable these countries not only to export here, but to the world market at a great advantage. I have heard it argued by hon. Members, and I have held the view myself, that the best way of dealing with it is to do nothing. Lord Cunliffe's Committee, which sat in 1918, advised that nothing should be done and that the exchanges would rectify themselves. Now, in 1921, the exchanges are worse than they were in 1918.
    Mr. MILLS: Owing to your foreign policy.
    Sir A. MOND: What in the world has it to do with foreign policy?
    Mr. MILLS: Everything.
    Sir A. MOND: That is perfectly absurd. It has no more connection with foreign policy than it has with the moon and I cannot understand hon. Members taking that view.
    Mr. MILLS: On a point of Order. Would the right hon. Gentleman explain why we have to subsidise Austria, if it has nothing to do with the terms of peace? [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the point of Order"?] It is a point as to the accuracy of the right hon. Gentleman's statement.
    Sir A. MOND: I do not understand that we are subsidising Austria. Even if that were so, I do not see how it affects the exchanges of France, Belgium and Italy. Really hon. Members might go a little more deeply into this subject. As I said, we have waited three years and there is no improvement. I am the last person in the world who would ask to artificially interfere in these matters, but I have deliberately come to the conclusion that that we cannot
    afford—[Interruption.]
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Hon. Members have had an opportunity of putting forward their own arguments, and it is only fair they should listen to the other side of the case.
    Sir A. MOND: I think I am entitled to speak on this subject, because it is one
    974
    to which I have devoted a good deal of anxious thought. This is not a conclusion I have come to lightly. I have come to it deliberately and with a view to what I consider the best interests of the country. I say again I do not think we can afford to go on indefinitely without any prospect of the exchanges becoming normal again. We cannot afford to allow the great staple industries of this country to remain out of commission. The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh rightly said that we depend very largely on our overseas trade. I would ask him how are you going to carry on an overseas trade if you cannot afford to manufacture at all? After all, overseas trade, taking a general estimate, is not more than 25 or 30 per cent. of the entire output of this country. If you have not got any home trade, you cannot afford to keep your factories running simply for overseas trade, and being in that position that your home trade comes to an end, your overseas trade would automatically follow suit. We are not dealing with the old economic arguments of Free Trade and Protection, but with a very special set of circumstances which we have none of us ever foreseen, and we are proposing a special remedy to meet it during the time it lasts. The hon. Member admits that in a sense, because he says, "Let us try the experiment for 12 months and see what happens." He is more sanguine than I am, because after waiting for three years I see no prospect of 12 months being long enough to achieve the object we all wish to see achieved, and that is the reestablishment of normal exchanges. We are merely providing a kind of breakwater; we are merely endeavouring, not to produce a tariff under which British manufacturers will be able to raise prices to an unreasonable extent, but a very moderate provision by which they may continue carrying on some business. The interests of industry are one, and I am quite prepared to argue in any hon. Member's constituency whether it is fair or beneficial to this country that owing to exceptional circumstances due to the War, owing to a state of exchange which we have never known in the history of any living man, we are to go on keeping our works shut down for an indefinite time in order to allow the natural economic processes free play. It is as if

    975
    you had a man who was very ill, with a temperature, and you stood at his bedside and said, "Let us see whether the fever will get the better of him or he will get the better of the fever." That may be an interesting thing to do, and, as long as the fever is not bad, it may be a good method of treatment, but when the patient is almost dying I would not like to be the responsible physician who stood there looking on at the contest and running the risk of the patient dying, if I had any means in my power of keeping the patient alive.
    I would not stand at this box and advocate this Resolution in normal times, but it is the abnormality and difficulty of the circumstances which has driven me, most reluctantly, I candidly confess, but with perfect conviction, to think this is the right course to pursue. An hon. Member rather questioned a statement of mine the other day and instanced some fall in the index prices. Naturally, the fall in the world's prices will to some extent counteract the artificial increase in prices. The German Government have deliberately kept the price of corn low by enormous Government subsidies. They have been operating on a double principle. They have kept their internal wages down by keeping their food prices low by artificial subsidies. They have, on the other hand, by their enormous creation of paper currency, brought their exchange to a much worse point than it would otherwise have reached, and I have been informed from reliable sources that it is being deliberately done, and that that is the new economic war that the German people are waging. It is that sort of thing which rather upsets all ideas as to the exchanges getting normal. How can they, if the Germans deliberately set out to print more and more paper money to keep them down? There is no reason why they should ever get up. That is the situation with which you are faced.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Would you recommend the Cabinet to print paper money in this country?
    Sir A. MOND: That suggestion has been made in various quarters in this country, but we want to deflate—to get our currency on a sound basis and our trade on a sound basis. If we want to do that, we must protect ourselves and follow on an entirely opposite course.
    976
    In reply to the observation of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, the franc exchange is getting much better. France has adopted similar methods to this. So have the Americans, who have come to the conclusion that they cannot stand this competition of a depreciated exchange. They are taking the necessary steps to meet it. Why, then, should we bear the full burden and blast of all this in Great Britain? I say we cannot do it. Those who are interested in the revival of British industry and the reemployment of British labour cannot take the responsibility of adopting such a course. For myself, I am quite convinced that such a course is absolutely suicidal. Is it really contended that industry should remain idle, or is it contended that it is possible by bigger production or the biggest possible cuts in wages that can be made to meet the situation? I do not know whether hon. Members opposite are likely to come to the assistance of those who are wishful to get the biggest cuts in wages. I do not see how it is possible, even with a large number of the biggest industries in this country, to deal with this kind of competition we have to meet. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman who spoke last to talk of the community.
    Surely when you are faced with a peril of this kind, which is an exceptional peril, everyone must join in order to help. There is no class of the community that can stand aside idle. If hon. Members opposite say they do not care about these matters—well, where are we? Let me put it very seriously to hon. Members opposite. They know a good deal about manufactories. I do myself. There are three things that may take place. There is the closing of a factory. That is not merely a loss of capital, but there is also the degeneration of the works. There is a general fall in the value of the plant and machinery while it stands idle. There are many people out of work, which also means a continued loss of efficiency and loss of experience for a good many skilled men. These latter men instead of facing that may go to other countries where they can find employment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Do you think this will increase it?
    Sir A. MOND: Certainly I do, or I would not be advocating it. I certainly think it will increase employment. It may

    977
    raise prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Certainly it will have the effect of raising prices. The lower level is entirely uneconomic. Of course it will raise prices. It is bound to do so. That is the object of it. If it does not do that there would be no point in it. I make a present of that to hon. Members opposite. Discuss it how you like. A field of industry going out of commission, steel works idle, rolling mills shut up—you can have all that and buy cheaper steel, or steel that is certainly a lower price owing to entirely artificial circumstances from other countries, or you can make that steel by supporting the industry in this country during the period while the exchanges are getting right. Nobody is advocating that this should be a permanent part of our legislation or of our fiscal system, but we say that under the special circumstances of to-day we cannot afford to allow great industries to go out of commission, capital to be withdrawn, and staffs to be disbanded. I cannot understand those engaged in industry taking that view. Germany has to buy cotton from America, and the bad rate of exchange affects her in purchasing cotton. If the Germans had all their raw material in their own country they could send cotton goods here at 50 per cent. less than they could be produced in Oldham, and I wonder what the hon. Member for Oldham would have to say to that.
    Sir W. BARTON: I should be very glad to answer that argument if I have the chance.
    Mr. A. HOPKINSON: Surely that argument applies to the German steel industry, inasmuch as they import a large amount of iron ore from France.
    Sir A. MOND: They have a large amount of the raw material in their own country. I do not think it is denied that these goods are being sold at prices with which we cannot compete, and no hon. Member has yet shown that there is any method by which you can manufacture at those prices. Our industries are at a standstill, and we cannot afford to continue them standing idle. Surely it pays us better to give these industries a certain amount of assistance in order to keep them going.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: Why not give the coal trade some assistance?
    Sir A. MOND: We have offered them £10,000,000.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: You have spent far more than that.
    Sir A. MOND: It is rather a remarkable thing an hon. Member being in favour of the coal trade having more and opposing anybody else having anything at all. That is simply Protection for yourselves and Free Trade for everybody else.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: I did not ask for anything for the coal trade. I said you had refused it.
    Sir A. MOND: I understand that the £10,000,000 offer still stands, and I have always understood that a great deal more would be very welcome. That is merely an argument for this particular treatment of a very difficult problem. I am not disguising the fact there may be legitimate differences of opinion on this subject, but I do think that those who differ from the Government proposal should address themselves not to the ones but to the practical position and should tell us how in their opinion we can solve this enormously complex question without incurring much danger, much unhappiness, and much misery for a large number of our fellow citizens and damaging the future of some of our greatest industries while encouraging greater developments than now exists in the industries of other countries. It will be said you are going to deny yourselves access to foreign markets, but if your home market ceases it will follow you will not produce for foreign markets. To allow this blow to be struck at the heart of an industry which is defenceless, not owing to incapacity of masters or men, not because its plant is out of date—for a great deal of the plant was built during the War—but simply owing to the financial exchange in regard to which they can do nothing either to assist or defend themselves—to take such a course is criminal to the great interests we have to safeguard and to the masses of men and women who are now walking the streets.
    Mr. ACLAND: I will try to follow in the serious tone which has been adopted by the right hon. Gentleman, although I am not going to follow on his line of thought. I feel he is trying to use the particular case of Germany as justifying a general line of policy. I believe that

    979
    is false reasoning. The difficulties arising from the policy Germany is now pursuing are due much more to Germany's position with regard to the payment of the indemnity than to the fact that it is a country with a bad exchange. Then, as he very rightly says, the policy which Germany is pursuing is suicidal. But if that is so—and I think it is—why on earth need we take these precautions against Germany's suicide? [An HON. MEMBER: "It is killing our industries!"] A suicide is usually engaged in killing himself, but instead of suggesting that the German policy is murderous the right hon. Gentleman simply says it is suicidal. The policy of the Government is not so much intended to deal with Germany as with other nations from which we may be receiving goods and which have an unfavourable exchange so far as we are concerned. My right hon. Friend used the argument, I thought very naturally, that hon. Members on this side of the House were indulging in vague theories and generalities, and so on. That is precisely what my right hon. Friend has been doing, and I believe he knows it and admitted it in that splendid phrase of his, "Surely you must allow us to put forward remedies, even if they are in the nature of quack remedies." I will make only this complaint against him. If the position is as serious as he depicts, and if our steel trade and the very various and enormously important trades of that kind are really being ruined because of what we are receiving at the present time from countries having unstable rates of exchange compared with our own, what on earth is the good of trying to tinker with the thing by means of an all round 33⅓ per cent. tax? If he had gone into the question of the steel trade, which is not a question of Germany but Belgium and France, and if he had shown us that we should be able to hold up our heads against Belgium and French steel by a tariff of 33⅓ per cent., there would have been something to be said for the argument. He knows perfectly well, however, that so long as France and Belgium are getting their coal for nothing from Germany our steel trade will be helpless. They will be able to send in steel infinitely cheaper than anything we can produce here. That is the point, if the thing is so serious. This remedy is a quack
    980
    remedy. It is perfectly absurd to pretend that this all round 33⅓ per cent. duty is going to remedy this. The right hon. Gentleman is quite clever enough—being about the best economist on those Benches, which does not say much—to see absolutely, and that is why he used the phrase "quack remedy," that this course is absolutely tinkering with the thing and that it will do nothing at all.
    It all comes back to the Amendment, and to the wisdom of reviewing the matter and seeing whether or not we have affected the collapsed exchanges at the end of a year's time by these methods. The case of Germany is a particularly special case which cannot be dealt with in this way. With regard to other countries, the only way to get the exchanges right is to ensure the maximum amount of trade in and out with the fewest possible restrictions of any sort at all. I do not believe that you will remedy the exchange with Belgium, Italy, and France by restricting trade. I do not believe we should remedy at all the rates of exchange between ourselves and the United States of America if they were to put up a tariff against our goods. [HON. MEMBERS: "They do it!"] Very well, a heavier tax. [HON. MEMBERS: "Just recently!"] Of course, they have their normal tariff against our goods. If they were to say, "We deliberately want to improve the English rate of exchange with ourselves, and therefore we are going to put on a special tariff for that purpose," I do not believe that there is a single hon. Member here who would stand up and say that that was really going to be a remedy for the difficulties of the exchange between the United States and ourselves. That is the argument to which hon. Members opposite must direct their attention, viz., that the method of putting on 33⅓ per cent. duty is a remedy, not for Germany, because Germany is a special case, but for unfavourable rates of exchange where they may exist all over the world. I invite my hon. Friends to deal with some of these terribly serious cases to which my right hon. Friend referred, and to indicate by some kind of argument that this 33⅓ per cent. duty is going to have any effect whatever.
    Mr. A. HOPKINSON: I think the real error in the arguments of the Minister of Health is due to the fact that he suffers from what I may term the Haldanean heresy. He has pushed the theory of

    981
    relativity further than Einstein ever contemplated, for he endeavours to apply it beyond questions which are susceptible of mathematical proof, and therefore is betrayed into various errors. The first is this: He says that the German Government at present, by inflation of its currency, is deliberately reducing its rate of exchange to this country, and that it is possible to remedy that by the imposition of an Import Duty of 33⅓ per cent. Conceding for a moment that that argument is correct, what possible effect can the imposition of 33⅓ per cent. duty have in the case of a country whose Government is deliberately inflating its currency in order to get over the particular difficulties in which its own exporters are? Pre-supposing that we put on the 33⅓ per cent. duty, what is to prevent the printing presses of Germany from printing just a little more paper than at present? The right hon. Gentleman indeed does well, as the last speaker has said, to refer to the Government's remedy as a quack remedy; and it is a quack remedy of the most pernicious sort, because it is really increasing the trouble from the disease.
    What is the real, fundamental cause of a very low rate of exchange as regards the German mark compared with our currency? The fundamental cause, and the one and only cause, is that in this country there are not enough German credits; that is to say, there are large English credits in Germany—not to speak of the Reparation credits—and there are not large enough German credits in England. The only possible way, in the long run, by which the rate of exchange can be brought up is by the existence and the increase of German credits in this country—either direct credits or indirect credits through other countries. The only possible way to get over the exchange difficulty with Germany is for English people to buy as much as they possibly can of German goods. It is not a pleasant remedy at all, and it is not a remedy in accordance with sentiment—the super-patriotic sentiment of which we hear so much on this side of the House; but it is actually the only remedy. I do trust that we shall be spared the farce of seeing the Labour party in this House voting still more times against Protection, because, if there is one thing that the Labour policy is based upon, it is Protection. Members of the Labour party, on this particular
    982
    point, state that this extension to five years, instead of keeping it at one year as they suggest, is going to give rise to great trade monopolies. What is the trade union movement but a Labour monopoly, just as pernicious as any commercial manufacturing monoply? I do hope that that farce will not be inflicted upon us much longer. Their duty, if they act up to their principles, is to go into the Lobby with the Government every time.
    11.0 P.M.
    The Government, having, for reasons of their own, made some very foolish pledges at the General Election, are bound to bring in what the right hon. Gentleman has described as a quack remedy, and in order that we may see in what way the ultimate prosperity of this country is going to be damaged by this particular measure, it is essential that we should consider how in the long run the inhabitants of this island are going to earn their daily bread. We have an island in which there are practically no natural resources of any sort as compared with other countries. [HON. MEMBERS: "Coal!"] Our coal resources are absolutely nothing compared with the resources of coal in other countries; our iron resources are absolutely nothing compared with those of other countries. There is only one thing that we can live on in this country, and that is getting stuff—either raw material or semi-finished material—from other people, putting into it our brains, our energy, and our craftsmanship, selling it at a profit to a third party, and buying bread with the money. Nothing can get us away from that. It is the one way in which we can continue to exist and maintain a population of over 40,000,000 in these islands. Now here comes the Government, at a crisis like this, when we manufacturers and employers of labour in this country are endeavouring, by sacrifices ourselves, to save the working population of this country from the appalling privation that is threatening them—here, at every turn, we are hampered and thwarted by the Government. I do hope the right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Bench have really read, marked, learned and inwardly digested that remarkable letter from the bankers, because although the Minister of Health has told us it is owing to some problem of exchanges or the printing of paper money in Germany that 3,000,000 of our fellow

    983
    countrymen are out of employment. I deny it. It is due entirely to the fact that we are still living on our capital just as we did during the War, and living on our capital because this Government time after time invents new and ingenious devices for concealing from the people the actual facts. They have been feeding the dog on his own tail for two years since the Armistice, and we have got to the end of the tail now, and we are in the most appalling position this generation has ever seen. What is our remedy? Pre-supposing that yours is a quack remedy, and the right hon. Gentleman admits it, my remedy is that the only way we can re-establish prosperity and I believe the only way we can save large numbers of our fellow countrymen from actual starvation in the coming winter is to live on our income and not on our capital, that is to say, not to endeavour to pay wages and make profits on a higher basis than it is possible for the economic situation of this country to pay. The right hon. Gentleman refers to the steel trade as an example. He says it is due to these pernicious Germans printing too much paper money that we cannot compete with the Germans. It is due to nothing of the sort. It is due to the fact that we cannot produce steel at a reasonable price because we pay colliers, steel men, and blast furnace men too much wages.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: And the banks.
    Mr. HOPKINSON: They are obliged to charge large wages for their services for the simple reason that the Government, through its taxation, has taken away the capital of the country and squandered it and therefore the wages of capital have gone up just as the wages of labour have gone up. That is the essential fact, that we are endeavouring still, even at this crisis, to live at a rate that we cannot afford to live at. We are endeavouring to live at a very much higher standard of living than that of 1914, and one moment's real solid consideration, apart from politics and General Election pledges and that sort of nonsense, will convince even the Government that we cannot, after five years of destruction and non-production, expect to have the same standard of living as before, and the sooner the working classes realise it and understand
    984
    it the better, because it is utterly impossible, until that is realised and the difficulty is out of the way, no matter what we do in the sacrifice of profits and working as employers for absolutely nothing, or even at a loss, to save them from privation and starvation. I blame the Government for protracting these conditions for over five years, for endeavouring to persuade the people, that is to say, the voters, that if they maintain this Government in power it will always stand between them and the action of economic law. The game is up. You are shown up, and it is too late to go on any longer. For Heaven's sake let the Government be honest about these things, and let it help us really to see the situation and see the appalling privation that has already begun among our fellow-countrymen who are less fortunate than ourselves. Let it get out of the way and allow us to do our best to save our fellow-countrymen.
    Sir W. BARTON: The speech which we have heard from the Minister of Health was the most extraordinary, coming from a past-master of political economy that ever was delivered in this House. A great leader in this department of thought, he is the only Liberal Member of the Government who has been put forward to sustain the brunt of this very objectional proposal. He has my sympathy. What, apparently, was his case? He represented the condition of industry in this country as being sick unto death. That is true. In a former speech he spoke of our condition industrially as being that of a business bankrupt. That is true. Then he went on, in language almost offensive, to suggest that we on this side of the House were regardless and ignorant of the condition of things, and had no regard for the employment of those who look to us for employment. That part of his speech was unworthy of any minister of the British Crown. He represented the patient as in a very dangerous condition, and said: "You propose to do nothing; we propose to do something." He sees a dangerous condition he does not know what to do, but he does something, almost at the same time admitting that he doubts whether what he is going to do is right. He represented the condition as that of a high fever, a high temperature. If that is the condition of the patient the Government's policy may be right, but

    985
    that is not the condition of the patient. The condition is one of deep depression and anæmia in which you require to provide some strengthening force.
    You talk about exchange as if it were something that had only one end. When you view exchanges you must view both ends. The right hon. Gentleman said—and it was one of the strongest sentences in his speech "What we want is to see exchanges restored."
    Sir A. MOND: Hear, hear.
    Sir W. BARTON: What you are doing will depress the exchanges. If your policy means anything at all it means that you are entering upon a vicious circle. You are going to depress the exchanges, and that being so, logically you must increase your 33⅓ per cent. duty until you have a condition of exchange depreciated as it never could be apart from your policy; and on the other hand you will have a protective tariff which will make international trade totally impossible. You challenge us to say what we would do. Reference has been made to the very important manifesto issued by the experts in economics and finance in this country. The right hon. Gentleman in a former speech derided the bankers of this country; scoffed at them. I prefer the opinion of those experts than the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman which I formerly regarded as exceedingly valuable.
    Sir A. MOND: The hon. Member naturally prefers the opinion of people who agree with him to the opinion of those people who disagree with him.
    Sir W. BARTON: Naturally I agree with people who agree with me. If I did not, I could not be sincere in my beliefs. That manifesto told you in plain words that the most important remedy was economy in national expenditure. It told you that these foreign adventures of yours are one of the main reasons for the unemployment in this country. You lay all these things aside, and you want to build up barriers which will not help exchange or trade, but will make things worse, and will give no promise of retrenchment in the desperate expenditure you are incurring in the nation's name. I venture to say the one thing that will help exchange is the effective co-operation of the richer countries of the world
    986
    with those which have been most impoverished by the War. I do not say this country is in a position to give great credits abroad, but to the extent of our power that is the only way in which we can improve the exchanges of the world.
    Free Trade and Protection, we are told repeatedly, does not come within this argument, but the extraordinary thing is that whenever the occupants of the Front Bench opposite speak, you can detect the traces of it in their arguments. The right hon. Gentleman instanced steel, and he said, "Are you going to allow your steel works to go out of commission?" Are you going to allow your shipbuilding to go out of commission? Then he took the case of cotton, and he quite unfairly said I was in some privileged position. If he knows anything at all, he knows that the one trade in the country which has been losing desperately in the last few months is the cotton trade. But I pass from that, because I regret it as a most unfortunate thing that trade after trade should be brought up in this House as a matter of special interest. Our interest is with the whole trade. Our interest is to help the international trade of the world, and when the right hon. Gentleman instances steel, and says Germany is in a favoured position in connection with that, I wonder where he got his information. Will he tell me what proportion of ore which Germany uses in steel works is obtained in Germany? I ask the right hon. Gentleman. He seems to be asking somebody else. Why should a Minister of the Crown make a statement of that kind without knowing? Then he passed from that to a doctrine entirely uneconomical. He talked as if it were possible in the same country for the same commodity to have two prices—one for that part of the production which was based on ore obtained from the country, and another for imported ore. The right hon. Gentleman knows that that was the most superficial argument of all. I am glad this Amendment was put down limiting this to one year. I should have preferred one month, but I shall support one year as being less harmful than the proposal of the Government.
    Major M. WOOD: The speech by the Minister of Health a few minutes ago makes one wonder how it was that the right hon. Gentleman ever called himself a Free Trader. Listening to him one

    987
    would have thought that Germany won the War because Germany seems now to be in possession of the markets of the world. He says that the collapsed exchange of Germany means a subsidy for Germany. Does the right hon. Gentleman forget that although the collapsed exchange may give Germany a little advantage in exports she gets a corresponding disadvantage when she imports, and that Germany is almost as large an importing country as ourselves, and was even more so last year I understand? Surely the right hon. Gentleman must realise that that is bound to take away all the advantage that there may be on the other side, and, indeed, if there is any advantage in the collapsed exchange, every other country can have a similar advantage by the expedient of depreciating her currency as all the Allies say Germany has done. Suppose we pass a Bill based on these Resolutions and prevent goods coming from Germany to this country the goods will go to other parts of the world and undersell us because, owing to the fact that we have deprived ourselves of cheap material, we shall be unable to manufacture as cheaply as the German. Therefore we shall not have a look in the neutral markets of the world. That is bound to be the result of any such legislation as this.
    Apart altogether from the merits of the proposal which we are discussing, this Amendment would simply give the House power to review the whole question every year. This is merely in the nature of a tariff, and there are other tariff duties which have been imposed in the last year or two. Everyone of these duties comes up year after year for review. Why should there be an exception in this particular case? That is not a question which goes to the merits of the case at all. We are, whether united or not, embarking on a new policy. When we see it in working it is bound to show a great number of things which we do not anticipate, and it is right that year by year we should have an opportunity of reviewing the working of it during the previous year and reimposing or not reimposing it or reimposing it under different conditions. All we ask is that Parliament, when it makes a great departure of this kind, should not tie its hands in such a way that it would be difficult for it to correct any particular mistakes which may have been
    988
    made in the initial stages, and that can be obtained by a provision which will compel this House to consider it every year and review it in all its aspects as far as we can. Therefore I support this Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: We are inclined, I think, to treat these Resolutions which are before us rather lightly on these Benches, being under the impression that many of them are so ridiculous that it could not really be the intention of the Government ever to pass them into law. We have allowed the thing to go on, and we are almost grateful to the Government for having put up the Minister of Health to recall us to the realities of the position. It is very real. I have sat in this House with the right hon. Gentleman for sixteen years. I know his views we have worked together. His speech to-night has come as the most unpleasant shock I have received in my Parliamentary career. It is not that he is stating views with which we do not agree, but that I always thought that he was an absolute type of honest politician, and that to-night, if it is not unparliamentary for me to say so, I should think that his speech was deliberately dishonest.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot permit that. It is merely another way of saying what is unparliamentary.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I withdraw. It is rather difficult to express what I think about the right hon. Gentleman. I would point out to him that for his speech he received the cheers, the somewhat contemptuous cheers, of the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Terrell), and that he was received by people who have hitherto been his best friends with a sense of outrage and contempt with which he was never before met in this House. I ask him, Was it worth it?
    Sir A. MOND: I have survived it.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It was not merely that the right hon. Gentleman was using arguments which I believe he knew to be unsound, but it seemed to me that he was actually, one might say, committing a sin against the Holy Ghost. He was using his great brains, turning to the Labour party, in trying to deceive them as to what this Measure is. He said to them, almost with tears in his voice, "Would you allow the unfortunate

    989
    unemployed to starve when by merely passing this Measure you could give them employment?" He must have heard that argument very often before. There are still some people in this House who believe in it and use it. I have heard it on every Tariff Reform platform and so has he: "Vote Tariff Reform and stop unemployment." Tariff Reform was to provide two jobs for one man and to clear the black bluebottles out of the butchers' shops, and no one was more energetic in denouncing that sort of pseudo-argument than the right hon. Gentleman. It is not as though the right hon. Gentleman was the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has never understood Tariff Reform or Free Trade, but the right hon. Gentleman does. He descends to the use of that argument across the floor of the House in order to try to deceive men who, he thinks, have not had the same amount of political economic education as he has had. That is a mean thing to do. Will the right hon. Gentleman go on to the platform and use that argument to uneducated crowds of electors just as any second-rate or tenth-rate Tariff Reform orator used to do? He knows as well as we do, even the despised Labour Members to whom he tries to speak down, that every ship you stop coming to this country means the stopping of two ships going out from this country loaded with goods. He knows quite well that these proposals will not merely send up prices—that he admits—but that they will kill our export trade exactly to the extent that they stop imports coming into this country. He knows quite well all the arguments in favour of the balance of trade, yet he comes to the House and, with a sob, tells the stupid, idiotic Labour Members who cannot understand what he means. "You vote Protection, in order to provide more employment for the honest, stupid, English working man." Let him try that argument in Germany. He seems very anxious about the German exchange. He believes that Germany is deliberately reducing her exchange in order to benefit her export trade. I wonder why every other country does not do likewise. It is so simple—like furnishing on the hire system. Then he refers with contempt to the Report of Lord Cunliffe's Committee. "These bankers," he says in effect, "do not understand their business, but I do." Lord Cunliffe's Committee
    990
    reported that the exchange could only be restored provided the countries incurred no further indebtedness. The use of the printing press to create more money has brought about further indebtedness, and this use of the printing press was then held to be one of the causes of breaking the exchanges. Lord Cunliffe's remedy was increased production, reduced indebtedness, and greater economy. Increased indebtedness is exactly what has been going on in Germany, and the right hon. Gentleman must know quite well that Germany is raising in revenue just one-third of her national expenditure. Consequently they have to use the printing press to make up the deficit. France is doing the same thing, but neither France nor Germany is deliberately using the printing press to encourage their export trade. They are not seized with some wild-cat scheme to send down their own currency in order to employ their own working people. They are driven to do it by stern necessity. This Resolution will make it more difficult for these people to restore their exchange, and will make it still necessary for them to export their goods at all costs, in order to get anything into their countries. It will not only increase prices in this country, but will increase unemployment as well. There is not a man in this House who, if he thought Tariff Reform would increase employment, would not be in favour of Tariff Reform, but we know perfectly well it will leave employment exactly where it is, and at the same time increase prices, and thereby reduce the purchasing power of the mass of the people. That is why we oppose Tariff Reform.
    Let us consider this Resolution in detail. The Board of Trade, of course, is to decide what goods are to be kept out of this country or are to be charged with the 33⅓ per cent. duty. Among others there are to be all goods sent here
    "at prices which, by reason of depreciation in the Value in relation to sterling of the currency of the country in which the goods are manufactured, are below the prices at which similar goods can be profitably manufactured in the United Kingdom."
    I like the word "profitably." One of the countries with the worst possible exchange is Russia. I really do not know what the Bolshevik rouble is at, but it is almost out of history altogether. Obviously the immediate result of passing this must

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    be to prohibit any sort of produce coming from Russia. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I do not know what other reading can be given to this Resolution. [AN HON. MEMBER: "We do not buy manufactured goods from Russia!] How about timber? All sawn timber, even logs, will be included. The immediate result of passing the Bill which will be based on these Resolutions is to stop all export from Russia into this country. About two months ago we decided to trade with Russia and now we are deciding that Russian trade is to be shut down.
    These constant changes of policy by the Government are becoming almost a bad habit. Russia, with the worst possible exchange, has a neighbour, Poland. In Poland the mark, which used to be 20 to the £, is now 3,500 to the £, a country with a paper currency where the paper currency has been produced to perfection the production of paper money is almost the only constructive, productive work in Poland at the present time. Poland is an Ally. Are you deliberately going to say to the Poles, "You shall send nothing into this country without a 33⅓ per cent. duty"? Then look at Sweden. Sweden during the War did not come into the War, but came in sentimentally to a considerable extent. They were about as pro-German as any country which was not fighting against us, and Sweden incidentally did very well out of the War and are doing fairly well out of the War, and their exchange is normal to an extent to which ours is not. We are therefore to allow all Swedish goods to come in free and put a heavy duty on all goods from Poland, Finland, and from Norway, which, of the Scandinavian countries, supported us during the War to the best of their ability. I think also Spanish goods will come in free, and those of Holland, America, and Sweden, but all the other nations will have to pay duty.
    Really, this scheme has only to be put before the public to be laughed out of court. It is no wonder they had to put up the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health to defend this scheme in the House; they could not find a single other Minister who would have the face to do it. This is a scheme that is put before this House at half-past eleven the Debate started at 10, and we are to debate it all night, without any press, without any
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    public in the galleries, without any chance of the people in the country realising what the Minister of Health really is and why it was necessary to employ him, and we are asked to rush this Bill through in this way. I can only hope that this quick-change Government, which changes its politics on Russia, on German reparations, and on every economic question, will change its politics again, and rapidly come back to a saner idea of what is possible to be done for the benefit of the people of this country and to reduce unemployment. The right hon. Gentleman has given us a very unpleasant nightmare. May I suggest to him that in future he uses his great talents, not to try to mislead people who are not likely to be misled in 1921, after having had this controversy dinned into their ears for 20 years, but to convert capitalists to a saner idea of what the trade of this country is We want the greatest production of goods in this country. It is no good hoping by hitting the laws of political economy and the natural laws on the head to make things better in an emergency. The laws of political economy hold good, not only in normal times, but also in emergencies, and if you try to cast to the winds all the sound doctrines in an emergency, when this patient of whom he speaks so feelingly has a high fever, you might just as well take your fevered patient outside and throw a bucket of water over him, in the hope that that might cure him of his fever. I would advise the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to stick to what they know, and to that of which the country has had experience, rather than fly to all the quack remedies of the world which the Minister of Health can try to impose on the Cabinet.
    Mr. FRANCE: In spite of the lateness of the hour, and the absence of the Press and the public, I think this matter is of sufficient importance to debate a little further in view of the extraordinary speech of the Minister of Health. I do not know whether he made that speech in the capacity of Minister of Health, or as special counsel engaged for the occasion, but if he made it as Minister of Health, I hope none of his medical advisers were under the Gallery to listen to his suggested treatment of his patient. To what did his speech amount? That if any country is prepared in any way to enable

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    their exporters to send goods to this country cheaply that is an evil which must be checked. It is a matter of degree. I remember the right hon. Gentleman in days of old. I remember his speeches at the beginning of the 1910 Parliament. I wondered the other day why he depreciated our looking up those speeches, why he thought that was a form of debate that was not desirable, and why speeches of the past should not be referred to. My curiosity was aroused, and I turned up the Debates at the beginning of the Session of 1910, when the right hon. Gentleman who now leads the House brought forward the proposition that unemployment was rife in this country, that foreign countries were paying low wages, working long hours, and by all sorts of unfair means seeking to send goods to this country below the cost at which we could manufacture them. The right hon. Gentleman opposite, who was then an hon. Member without title and without office, rose to reply, and he said:
    "I can only say I dread the day when the business affairs of this country will be put into the hands of those who make such wild and ridiculous statements as to how commerce should be carried on."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1910; col. 323, Vol. 14.]
    The day has come, and with it has come the right hon. Gentleman to defend the "wild and ridiculous statements," and course of action against which ten years ago he so strongly protested. The right hon. Gentleman the other day asked, were we living in Bedlam? Those who live in that state always imagine that others around them are insane and that they alone are the sane persons. We do appear to have come to the very state the right hon. Gentleman foresaw would happen when persons who held views such as he has advocated to-night were in office and carried them into effect. He said another thing which I thing applies admirably to the situation, and I hope he will excuse these interesting extracts from the past:
    "If we business men are only left alone to carry on our business, this year [1910] will be a record year in English trade. Anxiety is a characteristic of protectionists—"
    The right hon. Gentleman is full of anxiety—
    "Decaying industries are their favourite occupation. Bad trade is their panacea."
    Now the right hon. Gentleman is surrounded by those who believe in Tariff
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    Reform and tariffs, and we have got the bad trade.
    Sir A. MOND: Have we not bad trade?
    Mr. FRANCE: I know we have got bad trade, and I will come in a minute to one or two of the causes. But because we have got bad trade, this is the time when these gentlemen who were to take charge of our commerce attempt the ridiculous things which the right hon. Gentleman foresaw would happen. Asked what his policy would be, the right hon. Gentleman said at the time:
    "Our policy is founded on broad principles, not of hatred of the foreigner, not of parochialism, but on the much bigger principle of national exchange to the commerce of this country in the markets of the world."
    The right hon. Gentleman asks me if we have not got bad trade. We have, but as a member of this Ministry I think the right hon. Gentleman must take some share of the responsibility. Has the foreign policy of the country, has the finance of the country, has the expenditure of the country, has the handling of industrial problems in this country nothing to do with bad trade? The right hon. Gentleman says our trade is a very sick person—a body which is afflicted of a fever. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman of the story of the boy who went to the registrar of deaths to register a death, and when the registrar asked him who it was he wanted to register, the boy replied, "my father." When the Registrar asked the boy when his father died, the boy replied, "He is not dead yet." The Registrar rebuked him for trying to register the death of a person who was not yet dead. "But," replied the boy, "I know he is going to die before morning. The doctor says so, and he knows what he has given him." When the right hon. Gentleman speaks of our trade being in such a desperate condition I think he must recognise some responsibility for the medicine the Government have given to the country for its needs, industrial and financial, during the past few years.
    Sir G. COLLINS: The successful commercial career of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, and his long study of economic subjects, make any speech which he delivers in this House carry great weight, but I am sure every hon. Member in approaching this sub-

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    ject is only anxious to find out the true facts, and for this country to shape a policy which will be of undoubted advantage to the people of the whole country We join issue with the right hon. Gentleman when he suggests that those on these benches are less anxious to secure employment for our people than he who brings forward this Resolution this evening, and I am anxious to challenge the main argument advanced by the right hon. Gentleman. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman is this, that a depreciated currency helps the export trade of a country, so, therefore, an appreciated currency would be a disadvantage. I think I have stated correctly the main argument. May I say that when the subject was first raised in this House, and outside, the tendencies of my mind coincided with those of the right hon. Gentleman, but when I came to look into the facts of the case I was forced to change my view. I found—and I will give one or two figures to show—that every country last year whose exchanges stood high had a very large export trade, much larger than their trade before the War. I have taken some trouble to-day to find out the export trade figures for two countries. Take the case of Sweden. In 1913 her export trade amounted to 817,000,000 kroner. She has an appreciated currency and therefore her export trade ought to be handicapped according to the theory of the right hon. Gentleman. But I find that in 1920 her export trade was 2,293,000,000 kroner—representing nearly a three-fold increase on the trade of 1913. Again, take Denmark. The House is aware that her currency is greatly appreciated. Her exports in 1913 amounted to £35,412,000, in 1920 the amount of her export trade was £87,500,000. I am anxious to find out the real facts, and I am sure all hon. Members desire to approach this subject with a view to ascertaining the truth. If the facts I have mentioned are correct then they vitiate the main argument of the right hon. Gentleman.
    Sir A. MOND: I do not want to interrupt my hon. Friend, but surely he must take into account the enormous increase in values.
    Sir G. COLLINS: I have information on that point. Take Denmark, for in-
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    stance. I agree there is force in the contention, and in the inquiries I prosecuted this morning I devoted attention to that point. In the figures submitted in the monthly statistics of the Supreme Economic Council for Denmark the wholesale prices are not given but the retail are, and the retail prices so far as I have been able to find out have increased in 1920 as compared with 1913 by two-and-a-half times. It will be seen therefore that the export trade of Denmark shows a higher percentage increase. Take Sweden. There the prices have increased three and-half times. I agree that the export trade has only increase three-fold. I could give other figures to illustrate the point I am anxious to put to the right hon. Gentleman, i.e., that a country which has a depreciated currency cannot month by month or year by year continue to have a great export trade. The whole experience of history shows that, with a country with a depreciated currency, uncertainty is created. My right hon. Friend knows well that certainty leads to trade uncertainty creates trade depression. A depreciated currency creates uncertainty and so creates bad trade. The right hon. Gentleman told the House, with truth, of the serious unemployment in this country. No one denies it, but is a time when trade is bad a time to gamble with our fiscal system? When this country is facing—and I believe will face successfully—the gravest financial crisis in her history, the right hon. Gentleman comes to this House, and, with all his great authority, asks this country to change her fiscal system. I ask him to find a dozen men in this country who will come forward and support his decision. That manifesto, which has already been referred to, issued about a fortnight ago, signed by bankers and the leading members of the City of London, was one of the most striking issued in this country during the last 20 years. Those men are not tied to any party; they are not supporters of the Free Trade or Tariff Reform unions; they are only men working day by day and anxious for this country to secure her position again in the markets of the world. When they see that the Government, as they honestly think, are taking the wrong course they have come forward, and, with all their weight of authority and influence, they ask this House and the country to turn from these absurd proposals and stick to that policy which has saved this

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    country in bygone days. Words cannot be too strong, and I have no desire to use a single strong word on an economic subject, but I do appeal to the House that, if these figures I have mentioned contain within them these germs of truth, or if other figures can be mentioned to show that the main economic argument advanced by the Minister of Health is unsound and cannot stand argument in this House, they will appeal to the Government, irrespective of party, to put on one side all party considerations and ask the Government once more if they are quite sure that the proposals which they ask this House to adopt are for the ultimate benefit of the people of this country.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, in excusing the policy he suggests, laid special stress on the need of the steel industry. I would like the House to consider whether the real effect of the policy he has suggested will be for the benefit or for the hurt of the large iron and steel industries of the country. He seemed to suggest that, if this duty were put on, the goods which might be coming in would be excluded. If we grant that, where does the right hon. Gentleman think those goods will go? Those goods are being manufactured in France, and Belgium, and Germany, where they have a depreciated currency. According to his figures, they are able to sell them at a much better price than you are able to produce them in this country. He says: "Put on this tariff." The suggestion is that they will not come here. Where will they go? They will go into the world's markets, to the neutral countries, and our manufacturers of iron and steel products will have to face exactly the same competition, only it will be in the neutral market instead of here. I do not want to generalise, but let me give one or two illustrations from the district which I have the honour to represent. In the North of England, before the War, large quantities were received, and smaller quantities are received now, of Belgian billets, because they can be obtained, as they were before the War, at a lower price than that at which our steel manufacturers can make them themselves. They are rolled out into wire, rods, and the other products of our mills
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    on the North-East Coast. If you exclude those billets, what happens? They go into neutral countries, on account of their low price; they are rolled out by our competitors into the same forms—wire, rods and shapes; and we in this country, not being able to buy the cheap foreign semi-finished product, are unable to compete with the same wire, rods and shapes in the neutral markets. Therefore, although you may exclude these goods, you also exclude our manufacturers from competing in neutral market with these same materials. Instead of making less unemployment, you are creating unemployment, because you are stopping the finishing mill, which employs many more hands in rolling out the material than you can find work for on the cruder forms of the billet or the bloom.
    Only last week a manufacturer rang me up to know what was going to be the effect of this Bill. He wanted to buy Belgian tin bars to roll into sheets, and he wanted to make a big contract. If he could not get this material his sheet mills would stand idle. To keep it out is simply to close the mills of the sheet manufacturers, who, as the President of the Board of Trade knows only too well from his own practical experience, are dependent largely upon these cheap semi-manufactured products which come from abroad. It would be all very well to say that this would make employment if we were a self-contained nation, but we are dependent very largely on the markets of the world. As a manufacturing nation we require more than anything else to buy in the cheapest markets, and to exclude these cheaper products will be, in effect, to reduce employment and not to increase it. I do ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider carefully whether there was not soundness and truth in the gospel that he used to preach not so many years ago, when he told us that the manufacturers of this country depended upon getting the cheapest goods that the world could supply, in order that they might put labour into them and send them back into the markets of the world. Surely everyone knows that infinitely more labour is employed on the more highly finished article than on the crude article. The cheaper and cruder the article, the less the labour the more highly finished the article, the greater

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    the labour. We have gained our supremacy in the past by concentrating, not on the cheaper article, which employs little labour, but by concentrating and developing our industries on those more highly finished products, which employ so much more labour than the others. It is in that way that we have built up our large iron and steel industries. I beg the Government not to sacrifice that which has been built up at a tremendous cost, or, at any rate, by accepting this Amendment, to limit to one year the damage that is going to be done.
    12 M.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Last night we sat to a late hour discussing the granting of credits to the amount of some £26,000,000 to foster overseas trade with foreign countries, and particularly with those countries in which the exchanges are collapsed. To-night we are going to undo the work of the Department of Overseas Trade by preventing trade with those very countries—and then the Government expect us to retain our respect and admiration for their qualities! That, I suppose, as an hon. Member near me says, is the result of coalition. In February we had the Prime Minister answering a full-dress attack on the Government's whole policy on the ground of the creation of unemployment, and saying that the great object in Europe was to restore trade and commerce between countries. That was long before the coal strike, and unemployment then, and the discontent consequent upon it, were alarming. In February the Prime Minister was talking about good Christianity being good business, and saying that we must enter into closer relationship with our neighbours, forget the effects of the War, and right the exchanges through the natural channel of the exchange between the various countries of the goods which each can make best. To-night we have the Minister of Health throwing overboard all that doctrine of the Prime Minister, and preaching the old Tariff Reform slop, which the country turned down 20 years ago, and will turn down again as soon as it has the opportunity.
    We have hardly heard a word about paragraph (a) of this extraordinary Resolution. The Minister of Health dealt at length with the exchanges, but he did not
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    touch on the question of dumping. Was that because the case cannot really be argued?
    Sir A. MOND: No, because there is no case to be answered.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: Then there is no case for the Bill.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Everybody knows that the manufacturers of the world—the United States, Holland, Denmark, and elsewhere—are forced to dump, because they have to realise money on their stocks to meet overdrafts at their bankers. The Americans are dumping goods upon us at under cost price. Especially is that the case in regard to coal, and that is one of the reasons for the present crisis in the coal industry. Is that an unhealthy process? Are you to prevent people sending goods to us at under the cost of production? Is not that increased wealth, if you can afford to buy them? Suppose we were supplied free with steel plate to the utmost of our requirements for the next five years. We may be it is very likely under the indemnity. Would that be a disaster for this country? Would it not mean that we could make agricultural machinery, locomotives, ships, and every thing into which steel enters, at cheaper rates than our neighbours, and stand a very good chance of cutting them in the markets of the world? If that is the case with regard to a free gift of steel from abroad, why should we not admit goods that mostly play a part in other manufactures, and take advantage of the fact that we have a good exchange?
    I was astonished to hear the Minister of Health congratulating the German manufacturers on the low value of the mark. He spoke of it as a subsidy to the German manufacturers, and the advantage it gave them over the British manufacturers. Does he really mean to follow out that logic and to say that it would be an advantage to our manufacturers if the £ went down in value in comparison with the dollar and the franc? If he says that the German manufacturers really gain by having the mark at 240 or 250 to the £ it would be quite easy to follow their example. All the Government have to do is to spend more money than there is revenue, keep the printing presses going, keep larger armies, enlist more men in the Defence Force,

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    and draw more and more men from industry and put them on non-productive work. The British exchange would soon go down. Since the coal stoppage our exchange has depreciated. We have only to follow the policy of the last few years, and then there will be no need of these restrictions.
    Why does not the Government seriously set about depreciating the exchange by inflation? Why not increase the unemployment dole to £10 a week? Why not double the pay of Government employés? You could do it, and then down would go the exchange, and we could compete with the beaten Germans. One would really think, to hear the right hon. Gentleman, that the result of our sacrifices and the effect of our victory have been to put the German manufacturers in a much better position than our own. That is utterly wrong. German imports are much in excess of her exports, and with the exchange at 240 or 250, it means that Germany has to pay heavily for the things she must get from abroad—nitrates, oils, petroleum, wool, cotton, rubber, etc., high-grade ores from Sweden, and so on. For these things she has to pay through the nose because of the exchange, and in consequence the German middle and working classes have to be ground to the bone, and their whole standard of living reduced, while they are almost in rags. The prosperity of 1913–14 has disappeared, as any of the right hon. Gentleman's commercial travellers who go to Germany will tell him. German exports in 1920 and in the first few months of the year, compared with 1913–14, are down, even on the inflated value of goods. They are hundreds of millions below the pre-War figure, if you allow for the increased value over pre-War. What is the use of the right hon. Gentleman solemnly standing at that table and telling us with the great authority that he wields in this House that the German manufacturers are subsidised because the German exchange is worse than the British exchange? The thing is ridiculous. If you ask an Italian, a Frenchman, or the trader of any country which suffers from a poor exchange, they will tell you that the exchange hits them very hard. When the French Finance Ministers or any other French Minister speaks they emphasise the importance of improving the exchange. They advocate economy to their people,
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    and greater production and increase of exports in order to improve the exchange. Then the right hon. Gentleman talks about the advantage to foreign manufacturers because the exchange is against them. The whole thing is futile. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not admit that he is paying the price of a seat in a Coalition Cabinet? Why does he not say, honestly, that he has surrendered to the Protectionist wing of the Cabinet?
    Sir A. MOND: I do not say it, because it is not true.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Then the right hon. Gentleman is past praying for. If he really thinks that the arguments with which he advocated this second Resolution will hold water before business men in this country, then Heaven help him. The War must have upset all his economic ideas. He is suffering from the effects of the War. I only wish it was possible for the right hon. Gentleman to keep out of economic controversy until the effects of the War have worn off. It is pitiable. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman realises the tremendous importance of shipping. In representing a port, I say, for anything that interferes with imports and exports should be resented to the utmost. If we have a key industry in this country it, surely, is our merchant shipping, and our shipping is going to suffer. There is great unemployment in all our ports to-day, and it is on the increase. There is a terrible slump in shipping, and this ridiculous legislation is going to make it worse.
    The first thing, of course, is that while we are preaching to these new States of Europe—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—while we are preaching to the Czechoslovaks—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—we will divide very shortly, preaching to these rising States the morality and the virtue of breaking down their ridiculous tariff barriers—I only heard the Lord President of the Council and the Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the matter a while ago—we in our time are introducing these artificial embargoes. Again, it has not been mentioned, nor does the attention of the Minister seem to have been directed to the meetings of his own experts with the French, the German, the Italian, and the Allied experts at Brussels a year ago. They there considered the whole question of the financial difficulties of Europe, and they advocated

    1003
    —when they asked for their remedy for the present state of affairs—peace, economy, reduction of expenditure on armaments, and, above all, the greatest possible freedom of trade between the countries. The Brussels Committee of experts was set up by the Allied Governments and the ex-enemy countries to consider the financial situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] On the top of that
    what is the use of introducing a Resolution like this? The least we can do is to limit its operation to 12 months.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House)rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 59.

    Division No. 134.]

    AYES.

    [12.13 a.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Gould, James C.

    Pratt, John William

    Atkey, A. R.

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Rae, H. Norman

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Greer, Harry

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Reid, D. D.

    Barlow, Sir Montague

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rodger, A. K.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Bigland, Alfred

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Hood, Joseph

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Briggs, Harold

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Stevens, Marshall

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Casey, T. W.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

    Kidd, James

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Chamberlain, N (Birm., Ladywood)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Waddington, R.

    Clough, Robert

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Lorden, John William

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir H.C. (P'nrith)

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Cope, Major William

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Matthews, David

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

    Morrison, Hugh

    Wise, Frederick

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Murray, John (Leeds, West)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Fildes, Henry

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Neal, Arthur

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

    Forrest, Walter

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Praser, Major Sir Keith

    Parker, James

    Dudley Ward.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Briant, Frank

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Cairns, John

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Spencer, George A.

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Swan, J. E.

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Waterson, A. E.

    Gillis, William

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Glanville, Harold James

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Rose, Frank H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Mr. George Thorne and Mr.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Arthur Henderson.

    Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: Ayes, 64; Noes, 173.

    Division No. 135]

    AYES.

    [12.21 a.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Royce, William Stapleton.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Spencer, George A.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Swan, J. E.

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Cairns, John

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

    Cape, Thomas

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Lunn, William

    Waterson, A. E.

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Matthews, David

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Gillis, William

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

    Rae, H. Norman

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    George Thorne.

    Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    NOES.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

    Greer, Harry

    Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Atkey, A. R.

    Clough, Robert

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Barlow, Sir Montague

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Cope, Major William

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Hood, Joseph

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Bigland, Alfred

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Fildes, Henry

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Forrest, Walter

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil).

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Briggs, Harold

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Kidd, James

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Gee, Captain Robert

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Casey, T. W.

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Gould, James C.

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Lorden, John William

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Reid, D. D.

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir H.C. (P'nrith)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Waddington, R.

    McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Rodger, A. K.

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Morrison, Hugh

    Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Seddon, J. A.

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Murray, John (Leeds, West)

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Neal, Arthur

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Wise, Frederick

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Parker, James

    Stevens, Marshall

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Pratt, John William

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    McCurdy.

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN rose in his place, and claimed, "That the Main Question be now put."
    Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    The House proceeded to a Division.
    Sir DONALD MACLEAN(seated and covered): On a point of Order. In view of the fact that only one Amendment has been disposed of on this most important Resolution, that the application of the closure is likely to be painful and not infrequent, and that a large number of Members are not fully acquainted with the operation of Standing Order 26, under which you have now accepted the Closure on the Main Question, may I ask you whether your decision on that question has been given under Sub-section (2) of that Standing Order which says:
    "When the Motion, 'That the question be now put,' has been carried, or the question consequent thereon has been decided, any further Motion may be made (the assent of the Chair, as aforesaid, not having been withheld)—"
    That is the assent of the Chair being given in the view that it is not an abuse of the Rules of the House, or an infringement of the rights of the minority—a decision may be taken on that question. May I ask you whether you have exercised your discretion under that Standing Order which I have just quoted, or if you give the Main Question to the Leader of the House when he claims it as a right, and if he has done it on his claim as a right, will you kindly inform the House under what precedent it is taken, because
    1008
    there is nothing on the face of the Standing Order which would give him the authority he would claim in that respect?
    Mr. SPEAKER: On this question I certainly have acted under Standing Order 26, as suggested. I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to Erskine May, page 317, where he will find no fewer than five precedents quoted. Should he wish for any date for a precedent from the OFFICIAL REPORT, I can give him one on 2nd August, 1901, under a predecessor of mine, and a later one, on 25th July, 1905, in an exactly similar case, under my immediate predecessor, Mr. Speaker Lowther.
    Captain W. BENN(seated and covered): On a point of Order—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would ask hon. Members to bear in mind the fact that a Division is proceeding all the time, and hon. Members must go into the Lobby if they wish to vote.
    Captain BENN(seated and covered): On a point of Order. Do we understand that you rule that the exclusion of 10 Amendments on this most important Resolution does not constitute an infringement of the rights of the minority of this House?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD(seated and covered): On a point of Order. Seeing that we have had no explanation whatever from the Government as to what is intended by this Resolution, are we not entitled to have some further debate on the question? The Minister of Health did not explain in the least what was intended by this Resolution.

    1009
    We do not even now know whether it is to be applied to some countries, and not to other countries, where it must be applied, or whether it must depend upon the will of the Board of Trade. Neither the House nor the
    Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Baldwin, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Alfred Mond, Sir Gordon Hewart, and Sir Philip Lloyd-Greame.
    country know in the least what is going to happen under this Resolution.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is not for me to speak in defence of the Government.
    The House divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 2.

    Division No. 136.]

    AYES.

    [12.33 a.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Parker, James

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Gould, James C.

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Atkey, A. R.

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Pratt, John William

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Greer, Harry

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Reid, D. D.

    Barlow, Sir Montague

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rodger, A. K.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur

    Bigland, Alfred

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

    Hood, Joseph

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Briggs, Harold

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

    Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Casey, T. W.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

    Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

    Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)

    Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Kidd, James

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Waddington, R.

    Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

    Clough, Robert

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Lloyd Greame, Sir P.

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Lorden, John William

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Lowther, Maj.-Gen. Sir H. C. (P'nrith)

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Cope, Major William

    McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wise, Frederick

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Morrison, Hugh

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Murchison, C. K.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Murray, John (Leeds, West)

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Forrest, Walter

    Neal, Arthur

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    McCurdy.

    NOES.

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

    George Thorne.

    SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES BILL,
    "to impose duties of customs on certain goods with a view to the safeguarding of certain special industries and the safeguarding of employment in industries in

    1011
    the United Kingdom against the effects of the depreciation of foreign currencies and the disposal of imported goods at prices below the cost of production, and for purposes connected therewith," presented according, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 125.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
    I make the Motion in order that I may inform the House at the earliest moment open to me of an unavoidable change in the arrangement of public business. I regret to say that, owing to the difficulty of getting all the information required, it is impossible for the Colonial Office Estimate to be ready in time for hon. Members to have it in their hands to-day, and to take the discussion on Thursday. In these circumstances we propose that the business to-morrow (Wednesday) should be the Supplementary Estimate with regard to Members' Expenses, the Report stages of the financial Resolutions and Estimates on the Order Paper, and that, instead of taking the Emergency Powers Regulations Resolution after eleven o'clock as proposed, we should take that as the first Order on Thursday, and subsequently take the Committee stage of the financial Resolution of the Railways Bill.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House if Wednesday is going to be regarded as a Supply Day?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If Supply should carry us on to ten o'clock, or until such an hour as to make it impossible to take other business, then it will count as a Supply Day. If, on the other hand, we enter on other business, then, under the Standing Orders, it will be disqualified from being counted as a Supply Day.
    Captain W. BENN: I desire to take the opportunity offered by the Motion of the Government to draw attention to
    1012
    the really extraordinary behaviour of the Leader of the House, who absented himself from the Debate, although I believe within the precincts of the House, such being his conception of his duty as Leader of this Assembly, and then comes in, and closures any further discussion.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That has never been permitted by the Chair. It is the action of the House. Any Member has the right at any time to move the Closure, but it is for the House itself to say whether or not it agrees with it.
    Captain BENN: I certainly have no desire and would never dream of transgressing a Rule of the House—I have been too long in the House to do that—but I am entitled to draw attention to what has happened. Here we have a Resolution that imposes a tariff in this country. It is a Resolution which permits the Board of Trade to draw up a tariff, and to impose it in an organised way on the industries of this country. The Debate has been one of the most informative Debates which I have ever attended.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is continuing the discussion of the subject which the House has brought to a conclusion.
    Captain BENN: On a point of Order. Mr. Speaker I am merely desiring to discuss the question which the House was not permitted to decide. The Amendments which were put forward and which were closured on the Motion of the Leader of the House without a word of Debate—
    Mr. SPEAKER: That, of necessity, is a reflection on the decision of the House. The hon. and gallant Member has been in the House nearly as long as I have, and he knows quite well that that is never permitted.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On the announcement that the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal has just made, I think it is right to enter a strong protest against the Government still burking discussion of the very serious question of the Middle East, which we were given to understand that the Colonial Secretary would explain on Thursday. We have discussed the question of the Middle East on some three occasions only in this present Parliament, as far as I know. For months

    1013
    past questions have been burked by the Government, and discussion has been refused because the Colonial Secretary was either absent or because he was waiting a suitable opportunity to state the whole position. In the meantime, millions of money are being poured out. We are committing ourselves ever more deeply to a Middle Eastern policy, which many of us deplore, and now the Government, I am sorry to say, still further propose to put off this discussion. I feel that the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman is not sufficient for altering the business for Thursday. Thursday, not being taken up with the Colonial Office Estimates, is to be taken up with the Emergency Powers Regulations, which have been twice discussed, and which the Government can always find time to discuss. Hon. Members who have made their arrangements for Thursday are to be prevented from debating the Middle East question. I do not want to complain in general about the right hon. Gentleman's arrangement of the business of the House, but on this particular matter I really think we have got a legitimate ground of serious complaint. What is the situation in the Middle East? We have never had in this House one discussion on the Persian question. In another place there have been three discussions since this Parliament was elected. Never in this House have we been permitted to raise the matter. It has been raised on the Estimates, but the Colonial Office Estimates are very large and extensive. They naturally deal with many parts of the world, but when the matter has been raised late at night the Minister has always been able to make some excuse. We have been waiting for the meeting of the Persian Medjliss, for the outcome of certain negotiations and so on. The India Office has claimed to speak for Mesopotamia, and now the whole question has been turned over to the Colonial Office. We have never been informed by the Prime Minister of the tribal policy with regard to Mesopotamia. The reason
    why we have been told that we have not been seized of the policy is that we were waiting for the ratification of the Turkish Treaty. It is two-and-a-half years since the Armistice, and we have had no discussion of these vital problems. The question of Mesopotamia is one of the matters which is the most criticised wherever two or three men meet together, yet we are once more to be burked of discussion.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House proceeded to a Division.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL(seated and covered): It was impossible for us to hear the Leader of the House in the short statement he made, and might I ask, in order that he may relieve the tension, if the Leader of the House can say on what date the discussion of the Colonial Office Vote, which was to have taken place on Thursday, will now take place. May I point out, because I think it is important, that we were promised as far back as February that immediately on the return of the Colonial Secretary he would make this important statement. The country has been involved in an expenditure of £150,000,000 in Mespotamia since the Armistice, and the House and the country are only too anxious to hear the facts. May I, therefore, ask when the statement will be made?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would point out that the Division is now taking place.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD(seated and covered): May I ask the Leader of the House—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I shall proceed to put the Question a Second time. The Question is, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 122 Noes, 52.

    Division No. 137.]

    AYES.

    [12.55 a.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Barlow, Sir Montague

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Atkey, A. R.

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Casey, T. W.

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Bigland, Alfred

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Clough, Robert

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

    Kidd, James

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Fildes, Henry

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Forrest, Walter

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lorden, John William

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Waddington, R.

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Greer, Harry

    Neal, Arthur

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Wise, Frederick

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Pratt, John William

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Reid, D. D.

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Hood, Joseph

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    McCurdy.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Rose, Frank H.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Spencer, George A.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)

    Swan, J. E.

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Cairns, John

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Waterson, A. E.

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Lunn, William

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Davies, A (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Mills, John Edmund

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Gillis, William

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Grundy, T. W.

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

    Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

    Rendall, Athelstan

    George Thorne.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Question put accordingly, "That this House do now adjourn."
    The House divided: Ayes, 127 Noes, 50.

    Division No. 138.]

    AYES.

    [12.59 a.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

    Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

    Clough, Robert

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Atkey, A. R.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Gould, James C.

    Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Green, Albert (Derby)

    Baird, Sir John Lawrence

    Cope, Major William

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Greer, Harry

    Barlow, Sir Montague

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas, H.

    Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

    Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend)

    Hallwood, Augustine

    Bigland, Alfred

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Fildes, Henry

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

    Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Harris, Sir Henry Percy

    Breese, Major Charles E.

    Forrest, Walter

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Hood, Joseph

    Casey, T. W.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

    Gee, Captain Robert

    Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Neal, Arthur

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

    Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

    Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Townley, Maximilian G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

    Pratt, John William

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Kidd, James

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Waddington, R.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Rankin, Captain James Stuart

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Raper, A. Baldwin

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

    Reld, D. D.

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Williams, C. (Tavistock)

    Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Wise, Frederick

    Lorden, John William

    Seddon, J. A.

    Woolcock, William James U.

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

    Worsfold, T. Cato

    M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

    Young, E. H. (Norwich)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

    Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

    Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Dudley Ward.

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Sutherland, Sir William

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hayday, Arthur

    Rose, Frank H.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Holmes, J. Stanley

    Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Spencer, George A.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Swan, J. E.

    Briant, Frank

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Cairns, John

    Kiley, James Daniel

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Lunn, William

    Waterson, A. E.

    Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Wintringham, Thomas

    Entwistle, Major C. F.

    Mills, John Edmund

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Gillis, William

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

    Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)

    Newbould, Alfred Ernest

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    George Thorne.

    Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after One o'clock a.m., Wednesday, 1st June.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (POST OFFICE ESTIMATES).
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (POST OFFICE ESTIMATES).
  DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEES.
  DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEES.
  ANGLO-JAPANESE AGREEMENT.
  ANGLO-JAPANESE AGREEMENT.
IRELAND.
  PRISON OFFICERS.
  PRISON OFFICERS.
  MURDERS AND OUTRAGES.
  MURDERS AND OUTRAGES.
  ARREST (B. NOLAN).
  ARREST (B. NOLAN).
  MILITARY OPERATIONS.
  MILITARY OPERATIONS.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (JAMES SMITH).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (JAMES SMITH).
  NAVAL SHIPWRIGHTS.
  NAVAL SHIPWRIGHTS.
  DEPENDANT'S PENSIONS.
  DEPENDANT'S PENSIONS.
  MENTAL CASES (TREATMENT).
  MENTAL CASES (TREATMENT).
  ADVANCES.
  ADVANCES.
ROYAL NAVY.
  OIL FUEL (REGULATIONS).
  OIL FUEL (REGULATIONS).
  COMMISSIONED WRITERS AND PAYMASTER LIEUTENANTS.
  COMMISSIONED WRITERS AND PAYMASTER LIEUTENANTS.
  TRAVELLING CONCESSIONS.
  TRAVELLING CONCESSIONS.
BRITISH ARMY.
  ORDNANCE DEPOT, DIDCOT.
  ORDNANCE DEPOT, DIDCOT.
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  LORD ROBERTS' MEMORIAL WORKSHOPS FUND.
  LORD ROBERTS' MEMORIAL WORKSHOPS FUND.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
HOUSING.
  RENTS, WALSINGHAM.
  RENTS, WALSINGHAM.
  DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY, BUCKINGHAM AND BRACKLEY.
  DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY, BUCKINGHAM AND BRACKLEY.
  BUILDING MATERIALS.
  BUILDING MATERIALS.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  RECREATION GROUND, BROOM, DURHAM.
  RECREATION GROUND, BROOM, DURHAM.
  LUNACY ACTS.
  LUNACY ACTS.
PEACE TREATIES.
  TURKISH REPARATION (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  TURKISH REPARATION (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  ÆGEAN SEA (BULGARIAN OUTLET).
  ÆGEAN SEA (BULGARIAN OUTLET).
  POLAND AND RUSSIA.
  POLAND AND RUSSIA.
TRANSPORT.
  MOTOR CAR LICENCES.
  MOTOR CAR LICENCES.
EDUCATION.
  TRANSFERRED SECONDARY SCHOOLS (TEACHERS' PENSIONS).
  TRANSFERRED SECONDARY SCHOOLS (TEACHERS' PENSIONS).
  SCOTLAND (DISTRIBUTION OF GRANTS).
  SCOTLAND (DISTRIBUTION OF GRANTS).
POST OFFICE.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (FRANKED POSTAL PACKETS).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (FRANKED POSTAL PACKETS).
  CABLES, BOURNMOUTH, WESTBOURNE AND POOLE (DUCTS).
  CABLES, BOURNMOUTH, WESTBOURNE AND POOLE (DUCTS).
  WIRELESS SERVICES (MARCONI COMPANY).
  WIRELESS SERVICES (MARCONI COMPANY).
  SUB-OFFICES (HOURS AND WAGES).
  SUB-OFFICES (HOURS AND WAGES).
INDIA.
  SEDITIOUS UTTERANCES (PROSECUTIONS).
  SEDITIOUS UTTERANCES (PROSECUTIONS).
  MILITARY ACCOUNTS.
  MILITARY ACCOUNTS.
  MR. GANDHI.
  MR. GANDHI.
  CIVIL SERVICE BONUS.
  CIVIL SERVICE BONUS.
  TAX DEPARTMENT, INLAND REVENUE (WAGES).
  TAX DEPARTMENT, INLAND REVENUE (WAGES).
  CALVES (SLAUGHTER).
  CALVES (SLAUGHTER).
  BROCKWORTH AERODROME AND BARNBOROUGH DEPOT.
  BROCKWORTH AERODROME AND BARNBOROUGH DEPOT.
  MEAT PRICES.
  MEAT PRICES.
  ORDNANCE SURVEY PENSIONERS.
  ORDNANCE SURVEY PENSIONERS.
  MOTOR CYCLIST POLICE OFFICERS.
  MOTOR CYCLIST POLICE OFFICERS.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
  ENEMY PROPERTY, TANGANYIKA (SALES).
  ENEMY PROPERTY, TANGANYIKA (SALES).
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
DRAFT AGRICULTURAL IMPROVEMENTS REGULATIONS, 1921.

  MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY.
  His Majesty's Answer to the Address of Tuesday last delivered by the Lord Steward of the Household (V. Farquhar) as follows℄
  "I have received your Address representing that the opinion of your House is against the Draft Agricultural Improvements Regulations, 1921, made under the Agriculture Act, 1920."

THE INDUSTRIAL CRISIS.

  MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, I have to submit this Message from the King—
  "The continued cessation of work in coal mines on the 27th day of May, 1921, having constituted, in the opinion of His Majesty, a state of emergency within the meaning of the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, His Majesty has deemed it proper, by Proclamation made in pursuance of the said Act, and dated the 27th day of May, 1921, to declare that a state of emergency exists."
  It will be necessary to pass, in accordance with this Message, a new set of Regulations, or rather to prolong the Regulations now existing, and I beg to give notice that my noble friend, Earl Curzon of Kedleston, if his health permits him, will submit that Motion to the favourable consideration of your Lordships to-morrow.

INDIAN DIVORCES (VALIDITY) BILL. [H.L.]
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF LYTTON): My Lords, I ask leave to introduce a Bill dealing with the validity of Indian divorces, and beg to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That this Bill be now read 1ª.—(The Earl of Lytton.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª, and to be printed.

HOUSING BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª, and to be printed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Read 2ª.
SUNDERLAND AND SOUTH SHIELDS WATER BILL.
Read 2ª.
WESTGATE AND BIRCHINGTON WATER BILL.
Read 2ª
PERTH CORPORATION PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2ª, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been reported from the Committee.

LAW OF PROPERTY BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, in moving that tins Bill be now read a third time, I have to acquaint the House that consent of His Majesty, and that of the Prince of Wales with respect to the Duchy of Cornwall, has been duly signified to this Bill. I do not think it will be necessary for me to add any observations to those I made on the Report stage of the Bill, except to say that, as I anticipated then, such points of difference as still existed have been happily adjusted.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª. (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3ª.
Clause 3:
Purchaser of legal estate not concerned with certain equitable interests or powers; and provisions for the protection thereof.
(3) All equitable interests and powers to which this section applies shall be, or be capable of
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being, protected by a trust for sale or a settlement in manner following:—

(i) Where the legal estate affected is at the time when any equitable interests or powers are created or arise subject to a trust for sale, the equitable interests and powers aforesaid shall, according to their priorities, have the like protection as if created or arising by means of a trust affecting the proceeds of sale and the income of the land until sale;

(ii) Where the legal estate affected is, at the time aforesaid, subject to a settlement, the equitable interests And powers aforesaid shall, according to their priorities, have the like protection as if limited or arising by or under that settlement;

(iii) Where the legal estate affected is not subject to a trust for sale or a settlement, then, if the estate owner conveys his estate to a corporation, or to two or more individuals approved either by the persons in whom the equitable interests or powers aforesaid are vested or by the court, upon trust for sale, with or without power to postpone the sale, such equitable interests and powers shall, according to their priorities, have the like protection as if created or arising by means of a primary trust affecting the proceeds of sale and the income of the laud until sale.

THE LORD CHENCELLOR THE LORD CHENCELLOR moved, in subsection (3) after "shall," to insert "notwithstanding any stipulation to the contrary." The noble and learned Lord said: This is a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, after ("shall") insert ("not withstanding any stipulation to the contrary"),—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40:
Consideration on sale to company incorporated by special Act, or provisional order,
40. The consideration on a sale under the powers conferred by the Acts to any company incorporated by special Act of Parliament or by provisional order confirmed by Parliament or the Board of trade or by any other order or certificate having the force of an Act of Parliament, may consist, wholly or in part, of fully-paid securities of any description of the company, and such securities shall be vested in the trustees of the settlement and shall be subject to the provisions of the Acts relating to securities representing capital money arising under the Acts, and may be retained and held by the trustees in like manner as if they had been authorised by the Acts for the investment of capital money.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "order" ["any other order or certificate"], to insert "scheme." The noble and learned Lord said: This is an agreed change, and I move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 31, after ("order") insert ("scheme").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 102:
Rights of the public over waste land and commons.
102.—(1) From and after the commencement of this Act members of the public shall, subject as hereinafter provided, have rights of access for air and exercise to any land which at the commencement of this Act is a metropolitan common within the meaning of the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1898, or a suburban common as defined by the Commons Act, 1876, and to any other land subject to rights of common to which this section may for the time being be applied:
Provided that—

(a) such rights of access shall be subject to any Act, scheme, or provisional order for the regulation of the land, and to any byelaw or regulation made thereunder; and

(b) the Minister may on the application of any person entitled as lord of the manor or otherwise to the soil of the land, or entitled to any commonable rights affecting the land impose such limitations on and conditions as to the exercise of the rights of access or as to the extent of the land to be affected as, in the opinion of the Minister, are necessary or desirable for preventing any estate, right or interest of a profitable or beneficial nature in, over, or affecting the land being injuriously affected, or for protecting any object of historical interest and, where any-such limitations or conditions are so imposed, the rights of access shall be subject thereto; and

(c) such rights of access shall not include any right to draw upon the land a carriage, cart, caravan, truck, or other vehicle, or to camp or light any fire thereon, and

(d) the rights of access shall cease to apply to any lima over which the commonable rights are extinguished under any statutory provision, or in any case where it is preyed to the satisfaction of the Meister that those commonable rights have been otherwise extinguished and the Minister consents to the exemption of the land from the operation of this section; but the Minister in giving or withholding his consent shall have regard to the same considerations, and shall, if necessary, hold the same inquiries, as are directed by the Commons Act, 1876, to be taken into consideration and held by the Minister before forming an opinion whether the application under the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1382, shall be acceded to or not.

(2) The lord of the manor or other person entitled to the soil of any land subject to rights of commons (not being a metropolitan or suburban common) may by deed, revocable or irrevocable, declare that this section shall apply to the land, and upon such deed being deposited with the Minister the land shall, so lone as the deed remains operative, be land to which this section applies.
(3) Where limitations or conditions are imposed by the Minister under this section they shall be published by such person and in such manner as the Minister shall direct.
(4) Any person who, without lawful authority, shall draw upon any land to which this section applies any carriage, cart, caravan, truck, or other vehicle, or shall camp or light any fire thereon, or who shall fail to observe any limitation or condition imposed by the Minister under this section in respect of any such land, shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding forty shillings.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to omit from subsection (1) the words: "at the commencement of this Act is a metropolitan common within the meaning of the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1898, or a suburban common as defined by the Commons Act, 1876, and to any other land subject to rights of common to which this section may for the time being be applied," and to insert: "is a metropolitan common within the meaning of the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1898, or a common which is wholly or partly situated within a borough or urban district, and to any land which at the commencement of this Act is subject to rights of common and to which this section may from time to time be applied in manner hereafter provided."
The noble and learned Lord said: This and the following Amendments to this clause are the result of the agreement between the Commons' Preservation Society and the Land Union, which I indicated was probable on the Report Stage, and which meets with the approval of the Minister of Agriculture. They may, therefore, I think, be regarded as completely non-controversial.
Amendment moved —
Page 79, line 28, leave out from ("which") to the end of line 33, and insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 79, line 39, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").
Page 80, line 10, leave out from ("provision") to the end of line 30, and insert ("and to any land over which the commonable rights arc otherwise extinguished if the council of the county or county borough in which the land is situate by resolution assent to its exclusion from the operation of this section, and the resolution is approved by the Minister")
Page 80, lines 32 and 33, leave out ("commons (not being a metropolitan or suburban common)") and insert ("common")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD DYNEVOR LORD DYNEVOR moved, after Clause 102, to insert the following new clause:—
Restriction of enclosure of commons.
"—(1) Front and after the commencement of this Act, the erection of any building or fence or the construction of any other work whereby access to land to which this section applies is prevented or impeded, shall not be lawful unless the consent of the Minister thereto is obtained, and in giving or withholding his consent the Minister shall have regard to the same considerations and shall, if necessary, hold the same inquiries as arc directed by the Commons Act, 1876, to be taken into consideration and held by the Minister before forming an opinion whether an application under the Inclosures Acts, 1845 to 1882, to shall be acceded to of not.
(2) Where any building or fence is erected, or any other work constructed without such consent as is required by this section, the county court within whose jurisdiction the land is situate, shall on au application being made by the council of any county or borough or district concerned, or by the lord of the mail v or ally other person interested in the common, have power to make an order for the removal of the work, and the restoration of the land to the condition in which it was before the work was erected or constructed, but any such order shall he subject to the like appeal as an order made under section thirty of the Commons Act, 1876.
(3) This section shall apply to any land which at the commencement of this Act is subject to rights of common. Provided that this section shall cease to apply to any land over which the rights of common are extinguished under any statutory provision and to any land over which the rights of common are otherwise extinguished if the council of the county or county borough in which the land is situate, by resolution assent to its exclusion from the operation of this section and the resolution is approved by the Minister.
(4) This section shall not apply to any building or fence erected or work constructed if specially authorised by Act of Parliament, or if lawfully erected or constructed in connection with the taking or working of minerals in or under any land to which the section is otherwise applicable."
The noble Lord said: Your Lordships may remember that on the Report Stage of this Bill I moved an Amendment on behalf of the Land Union which dealt with
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commons and waste lands, and, at the request of my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, I withdrew that Amendment, because, as he rightly pointed out, the interested parties had not been able to conic to a complete agreement, though lie hoped very shortly they would be able to do so. He described the three interested parties as those who advised the lords of the manor, the Common' Preservation Society, and the Government advisers. The noble and learned Lord also asked me to call a meeting as soon its possible of all the interested parties with a view to further discussion. I informed him that I thought we should be able, with a few more conversations, to come to a complete agreement, and my noble and learned friend added that he would be quite ready, if necessary, to postpone still further the Third Reading of tie Bill. I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships that there is no necessity- for any postponement. The interested parties met the next day. We had a most amicable discussion; in fact, all our discussions have been most amicable. There was give and take on all sides, and we came to a. complete agreement, which is embodied in the Amendments to Clause 102 which have just been moved by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and accepted by your Lordships, and in the Amendment which stands in my name and which I now move.
Your Lordships will realise that the Amendments of my noble and learned friend and the one that I now propose are really twins. They embody the whole agreement that has been arrived at. I would like briefly to inform your Lordships what is contained in my Amendment. It deals simply with the restrictions upon enclosure of commons. The other points have been agreed to by your Lordships in the Amendments moved by my noble and learned friend. Under my Amendment no enclosure of any common can take place without the assent of the Minister. We were all agreed that it is most essential that commons should remain unenclosed unless there was sonic very strong reason to the contrary. If any one in the future encloses a common and puts any erections upon it those erections and the enclosure can be removed by an order of the County Court. Even when all the rights of common have been extinguished a common cannot be enclosed unless the local authority, with the approval of the Ministry,

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assents to the enclosure. The mineral rights are reserved in the Bill.
There may be occasions when it is most essential to enclose part of a common. I can give your Lordships one instance within my own knowledge. I know a town which is practically surrounded on three sides by common land. It is a growing town, and desires to extend. The inhabitants, I believe, are very anxious that part of the common should be enclosed. The local authority and the lord of the manor are quite agreeable to the enclosure. In this case an enclosure of part of the common would not harm any one, in the least, for this is an immense common extending for some six or eight miles. Under my Amendment application could be made to the Minister, who could then either hold an inquiry or not as he thought best, and could order certain portions of the common, with limitations and conditions, to be enclosed.
I should like to express to my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack my warmest thanks for the courtesy he has shown all through these debates, and for his readiness to accept Amendments from the Land Union, many of which he himself has most kindly inserted in the Bill. I can assure your Lordships that those Amendments were put forward in no hostile spirit, but simply with a desire to strengthen the Bill. In thanking my noble and learned friend, and, if I may do so, in congratulating him, may I also express a hope that it will be some time before he brings in another Bill of 299 pages, 186 clauses and 16 schedules? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 102 insert the said new clause,—(Lord Dynevor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I can only say in reply to my noble friend that I am most grateful to hint for what he has said. We have made a sincere attempt to meet the views of those whom he represents, and I think that in many points they have suggested improvements to the Bill. I very much hope that those influential representatives of the Land Union who sit in another place will give us as much sympathetic support as the noble Lord has given in this House.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

FOURTH SCHEDULE.
DISPOSITIONS ON TRUST FOR SALE.
Clause 4:
Powers of management given to trustees for sale, trust of rents and props till sale, and provisions as to partition among persons interested in the proceeds of sale.
(3) Where the net proceeds of sale have under the trusts affecting the same become absolutely vested in persons of full age in undivided shares (whether or not such shares may be subject to a derivative trust for sale or a settlement) the trustees for sale may (with the consent of the persons, if any, of full age interested in possession in the net rents and profits of the land until sale) partition the land remaining unsold or any part thereof, and provide (by way of mortgage or otherwise) for the payment of any equality money, and, upon such partition being arranged, the trustees for sale shall give effect thereto by conveying the land so partitioned in severalty (subject or not to any mortgage term created for raising equality money) to persons of full age and either absolutely or on trust for sale or, where any part of the land becomes settled land by a vesting deed, or partly in one way and partly in another in accordance with the rights of the persons interested under the partition, but a purchaser shall not be concerned to see or inquire whether any such consent as aforesaid has been given.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of subsection (3) of Clause 4, to insert:
"Provided that—
"(a) If a share in the net proceeds is absolutely vested in an infant, the trustees for sale may act on his behalf and retain land (to be held on trust for sale) or other property to represent his share, and in other respects the foregoing power shall apply as if the infant had been of full age.
"(b) If a share in the net proceeds belongs to a lunatic or defective, the consent of his committee or receiver shall be sufficient to protect the trustees for sale."
The noble and learned Lord said: These words are drafting, and are inserted to meet the views of the Land Union.
Amendment moved—
Page 204, line 3, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I now move that the privilege Amendments be made.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, privilege Amendments agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

DEFENCE OF NORTH-WEST FRONTIER.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I beg to move that leave be given to advance to this day the Notice (relating to "the measures taken for the defence of the North-West frontier of India) which now stands for Wednesday the 8th of June next.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: The Government has no objection to the Motion.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I rise now to ask His Majesty's Government what steps, military and civil, any being taken to provide for the efficient defence of the North-West frontier of India; and to move for Papers. In doing so I would like to thank your Lordships for allowing me to advance the Question to this afternoon, in order to meet the convenience of the noble Earl who represents the Government of India in this House. I need not apologise for raising the question of the North-West frontier of India. It has always been an important part of the Empire, and has increased in importance during late years owing to the fact that we have now to consider not only the question of the tribes on the frontier and a friendly or unfriendly Afghanistan, but the danger which may arise from a new kind of Russia beyond the North-West frontier more difficult to deal with than the Russia of the past.
The North-West frontier of India is the only military frontier in the whole of the Empire. It. is over a thousand miles long from Gwadar to Chitral, and represents over 1,500 miles of actual frontier. We have to face to-day not only the armed forces of Afghanistan, a more or less organised State, but something like 300,000 or 100,000 aimed tribesmen who live in the district around the frontier, and that fact alone would justify me in bringing forward the Question. These tribesmen in the past—I am speaking now of ten or twenty years ago—were only partially armed. They are now armed with modern rifles and have become a much more formidable force. They have been able to get their rifles not only from imported sources, but by theft from us, by overpowering our small guards. In addition, one rifle factory, if not two factories, may be found almost within the borders of the frontier. These rifles are
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not of first-class manufacture, but they can kill if held straight.
To face this always present danger we have two divisions, the 1st at Peshawar and the 4th at Quetta, and three frontier brigades at Kohat, Baum, and Dik. If we put the total of that force at 50,000 men we are not over-estimating it. Owing to the nature of the country and the fact that communication is very difficult, the force is not very easily moved about. There is a great lack of lateral communication on the frontier, and it is wonderful that so small a force has been able to hold this long line of frontier without a serious reverse. We have had outposts overpowered here and there, but, on the whole, the line has been held exceedingly well. One reason why we have never suffered very seriously is that the tribes have not combined. If there had been any Combination with Afghanistan the position would have been ',Try serious indeed. Though we have been engaged in. a. series of wars with the Mahsuds in the south and the Waziris in the centre, luckily we have never been engaged with both at the same time, and that fact has enabled us to move forces to the districts attacked with comparative ease.
We have now to meet a situation in which, from religious or political motives, agitators may go among the tribes and stir them up to a united attack. In asking the House to consider this matter I am bringing it forward in order to elicit from the Government whether, with the concurrence of the Government of India, they have in contemplation any change with regard to the frontier, or whether they think the present state of affairs, if not satisfactory, is inevitable. There has been no real peace on the North-West frontier of India for many years. During the last three or four Years the raids have grown into a continuous imams series of small wars, with the result that the casualties have been comparatively heavy. The Secretary of State published a Paper giving the details of some of these casualties, and it appears that in two years ending in February last no fewer than 5,169 officers and men have been killed or have died of wounds or disease, 3,474 wounded and 829 missing—a total of 9,172. A proportion of these casualties occurred during the Afghan War, and they cannot, therefore, all be put down to the tribal warfare which has continued; but many of them have been suffered since the Afghan War.

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Another serious disadvantage with which we have to contend is the lack of good water, with the diseases arising from bad water. When I was there in 1917 and in 1919 I had an opportunity on more than one occasion of coming into contact with those responsible for medical administration, and I found that 62 per cent. of the casualties from disease came from water borne, or what may be called preventable, causes. Perhaps the noble Earl will be able to tell us whether the system of motor lorry filters, which I advocate very strongly, is being continued and whether it is being extended. Though our sense of proportion has been somewhat altered by the casualties of the great war, and though we have been rather accustomed to regard war as a normal state of things, vet we must remember that these casualties are greater than any that have occurred in previous years over this area. The North-West frontier for about two hundred miles is in a constant state of ferment, and I see no reason to anticipate that we can do anything but keep stronger forces there in order to meet the attacks made upon us.
This entails a certain expenditure upon the Government of India, who are by no means anxious to spend money in these days, as their revenue is not elastic while the expenditure is constantly increasing. I desire to suggest a policy to the Government which may save lives and also a large expenditure of money in the future. Let us consider for a moment our strategical position. It is an extraordinarily bad one. We are in possession of, or at any rate have to protect, various valleys which run up into the hinterland beyond our own country. These valleys constitute four dangerous salients running into the enemy's country. We have to protect the cultivated ground in the valleys where there is population. The enemy, on the other hand, has nothing to lose, because the troops that attack live upon or behind the frontier hills. The result of this is that we have to maintain isolated garrisons at the end of a long line of road, or road and railway, such as up to Parachinar 120 miles from the base at Kohat. We have to maintain these garrisons without any proper lateral communication, which involves going down a great many miles to the main communication road in order to get supplies or to assist the wounded. That is inherently a bad strategical position, and these four salients, which might be reckoned as the
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Khyber, the Kurram, the Tochi and the Gomal, are very dangerous from a military point of view.
Until quite lately we have not had sufficiently good roads up these valleys, and, as a result, our communications have been faulty. I must, however, pause for a moment to say that both the late Viceroy, Lord Chelmsford, and his predecessor, Lord Hardinge, were most anxious to do all in their power during their terms of office to improve existing roads and to build additional roads, and I received the greatest assistance from them when it was my duty to have to do with such matters. But much improved as many of the roads are, we need more roads, especially lateral roads.
Then there are the disadvantages of a very bad climate. Possibly I ant the only member of this House, or at any rate the only member present to-day, who has ever had the misfortune to live in those valleys during a portion of the summer. The temperatures are just as bad as those of Mesopotamia. The day temperature ranges from 110 degrees to 120 degrees, or even 125 degrees in the shade and the nights are particularly hot. I remember nights when the temperature reached 105 degrees or 108 degrees in the shade. That is a climate and those are temperatures which the white man, as a rule, cannot stand, at any rate for ally length of time. There have been sad episodes at one or two frontier stations due to men's nerves breaking down under the strain of the climate and of the kind of warfare, with which I will not weary the House to-day. When I was there, our men had nothing like the same comforts as the troops in Mesopotamia, at Bagdad, or on the Tigris or Euphrates. The time has come when we should give to the troops on this frontier every possible comfort in the way of ice-making machines, electric fans, and, if possible, local hill stations as well. A few more hill stations on the frontier between Cherat and Quetta would be of immense service to the troops.
We have now, I think, reached a stage when the Government of India will before long have to face two alternative policies. Of course, it is possible that we may go on along the lines foreshadowed by Lord Morley in his period of office as Secretary of State for India, a policy of going as little forward as possible, remaining in the Valley of the Indus, or even (at one time) having in

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contemplation retirement behind the Indus, except for the Peshawar plain. Nowadays that would be a suicidal policy. We must maintain our prestige on the North-West frontier. If it once broke down, and the people of that country thought that we were weakening in any way in our power to govern, it would react on India in a very serious way, and might, indeed, be the beginning of the end so far as large portions of the population were concerned. We might stay where we are and put up with these constant wars. That, I think, is a policy which leads you nowhere.
On the other hand, I think it might be the wiser policy to take over the whole country and the tribes—the Mahsuds, the Waziris and the rest of them—and administrate them as a regular part of India. That would have many advantages. At any rate, you would probably not have to keep more troops than at present, and, in addition, you would be able to get hill stations for your troops during the summer, which would be a most desirable development from every point of view. Those who were loyally disposed and wanted to trade with British India would be able to do so without serious interruption. I feel certain that the present policy combines the two disadvantages of unsound military strategy and thoroughly bad hygienic conditions, and I am sure that before long the Government of India will have to reconsider the whole position.
I come now to another portion of the frontier, upon which I hope the noble Lord who answers this Question for the India Office will be able to give the House some information. Until about seven or eight years ago there was only one road up the Khyber Pass which was fit for the use of motor vehicles. Between 1915 and 1918 we began the construction of a second road which was nearly finished before I left India in 1919. The road was not so perfect as it might have been, but it was most valuable to our troops during the Afghan War. I might even go so far as to say that if it had not been for the second road up the Khyber it would have been almost impossible to maintain beyond that point the troops necessary to overcome the forces of the Afghans. Two years ago I was delighted to find that the Government of India carried out a recommendation which I made that there should be a wire ropeway in the Khyber Pass. This has been completed, and has
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lately taken over twenty tons of stores a day to the summit. That is a step in the right direction.
Quite recently a trunk railway line has been extended up the Khyber Pass and I hope the noble Lord will be able to give the House, with due consideration of public policy, any details he can as to the construction of that line, how he proposes to protect it, and where the terminus is to be. If it is only to go to the frontier at Lundi Kotal it will not be very much good in case further trouble occurs with Afghanistan. I have heard that some arrangement has been made by which we can extend the line to Dakka. No doubt the noble Lord will tell us whether that is the case. The line will be difficult to make from an engineering point of view and it will also be difficult to protect. It will be subject to sniping, and to a sudden descent of the enemy from the very steep and high hills on either side. It will, therefore, need many efficient and well placed defences to prevent the interruption of the line and to secure the protection of supplies upon which will depend the safety of our troops at the frontier.
Perhaps the noble Lord will also tell us what attitude is adopted by the Afghans towards this line, and what view is taken of this point by our Mission at Kabul. If I know anything of Oriental diplomacy it is that it delights in delay until something happens which turns to the advantage of the Power with whom we are negotiating. Unless that Mission can report definitely that it has been able to achieve something it would be more dignified for us to withdraw it or to intimate to the Government of Afghanistan that it cannot be left there indefinitely. At the present moment it has achieved but little and the danger of leaving it there must be apparent.
As regards other railways on the frontier, I suggest that the time has come when an extension of some of them should be considered. There is a railway which runs from Kohat to Thal. That was originally planned to go on to Parachinar, the nearest place from which British troops could reach Kabul. Parachinar is also suitable for the use of aeroplanes. The head of the line there would be only ninety miles distant from Kabul, and an extension I to Parachinar is very desirable. Then we have a possible extension of the railway from Bannu to Dardoni or Miranshah up the Todd valley. I have seen convoys of

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camels five miles in length winding up this valley. Constantly they are being attacked and the raiders get off scot-free with a great deal of loot. I suggest that there are only two ways of sending convoys up these valleys. One is by motor lorries accompanied by armoured car, and the other is by train with an armoured locomotive and armoured trucks. Otherwise, we shall go on losing lives and a great deal of property belonging to the Government, owing to the raids of the population who live a few miles away from the road.
The third railway extension which I should be pleased for the Government to consider would be an extension of the line which runs at present to Tank and has been extended a short way to Murtaza. It might be extended to the south by the Zhob Valley to Quetta. I am afraid that these names will not be familiar to all of your Lordships, but it is necessary that I should get them on the Paper so that I may get a reply. Generally speaking, my object is to ask the Government to consider whether an extension of the railways as well as the roads in a westerly direction up these valleys is not advisable and will not result, in the long run, in saving lives and money.
Another railway has been built to the south of Quetta by Nushki to Dusdap on the Persian frontier. This line is, of course, an entirely strategical line. It can never convey any quantity of produce and it runs through the most dreary and dismal country which it is possible to conceive. Is it intended that this line should stop at Dusdap or be continued on to Bandar Abbas or into Persia? The extension of this line seems wasted to a large extent unless you are prepared to keep something like 200 miles of line permanently in order for military contingencies. It seems to me that you must do something with your line and connect it with some terminus or centre of trade whereby you may get sonic return for your money.
Now I come to the question of lateral roads, and here I think I have the sympathy of the General Staff in India. The necessity for lateral roads on the frontier is very great. You have these dangerous salients running into the enemy's country, and you have to go back to the base before getting into the next valley. I suggest that this question of making lateral roads should he seriously considered now. One from Thal to Edak via Spinwan is under con-
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struction. That road is very important as one which links up the garrisons at Parachinar and Thal with that at Dardoni, and runs through a country which is liable to be constantly disturbed. Those lateral roads are essential from a strategical point of view. It is impossible to relieve these distant garrisons unless you have lateral means of communication.
I suggest to the Government of India that they should seriously consider also the question of the Kohat Pass road, which I should think is unique on any frontier. It is the road between two parts of British India, and passes through a country which at any time may rise against you, and which contains two rifle factories where rifles are being made for the purpose of shooting at our troops. If we consider it wise to allow the rifle factories to go on we should at least make the road through the Pass secure. Otherwise, the relief by the 1st division of any garrison at Kohat would have to be carried out from a long way round by railway. The improvement of the road through the Pass is a question which should be carefully considered by the General Staff in India, and I assume that it has not been done because of financial rather than political reasons. In connection with that road the other road from Khusalgarh to Golra on the Grand Trunk route should be made. It was the subject of my recommendation more than three years ago, and until it is made the garrison at Kohat may at any time be in serious danger.
I have heard it said that with the improved service of railways east of the Indus there is not the same necessity for roads as there was. I do not agree. Roads must be always the prime means of communication. The extension of roads also will make for peace, because the civilising effect of a road everywhere on a frontier, especially in India, is very great. Trade begins to flow down a road, people settle along it, they find that trade pays them better than warfare, and the road exercises very great influence for peace and law and order. Of course, it goes without saying that on the North-West frontier we must use all the modern methods of warfare. We must use aeroplanes. I should like to see the Government of India use airships as well. You can never obseive properly from an aeroplane. I have tried it myself and failed. You must have something that hovers and can remain still. Immediately the tribesmen hear the noise

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of a propeller they lie clown and look from above like rocks. I have known several hundreds of men hide in the hillside and it has not been possible to see them until you get close to the ground. You need one or two airships.
In addition, you must have armoured cars to protect convoys. I know that the Government of India thoroughly agree with that suggestion. They have recently done a great deal in adding to the motor transport, have now got things on a better basis than they have ever existed in my time, and, I think I may say, have produced almost a revolution in the methods of defence on the North-West frontier, But we want more motor transport on the frontier even now. There are cases in which camels and mules are being used where certainly motor transport should be employed, and I suggest that also to the Government of India. In that connection I might mention the interesting fact that this year is the fiftieth anniversary of the use of motor traction in India. It was in 1871 that Colonel Crompton, who is still alive, used—at the suggestion, I believe, of Lord Mayo, then Viceroy of India—a small kind of traction engine with rubber tyres, and I believe that was the first time that a mechanical vehicle was used in any country in the world to any extent. They took loads up to 20 tons.
We shall have to keep troops to a large extent on the frontier for many years. But I am convinced that if we make more roads, if we extend our railways, and if, above all, we go into these countries, which have been consistently in a state of unrest for a long titite—places like the country of the Mahsuds and the country of the Waziris—and take them over, we shall not want more troops, but fewer. But until then we have to look forward to a time of increasing unrest on that frontier and to the necessity for more troops every year.
I know that a great deal has been said in India, and here also, about the high proportion of military to civil expenditure and also to the total Revenue raised. I thoroughly admit the force of that argument. It does seem a very large proportion to spend something like 50 per cent. of the Revenue of India on military preparation. But India is in a very peculiar situation. In no other part of the Empire have you a frontier one thousand miles long, and half a million men ready to rise against you. That is really the secret of what
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appears to be the excessive expenditure upon military matters in India. You will never get rid of that expenditure so long as you have a frontier which is liable to be disturbed. But if you were once to have a serious reverse on your frontier, if, for example, you were to lose command of the Peshawar Plain or places of less importance, that would precipitate a very serious crisis in India for the Administration. Many of the Indian peoples would then think that you were not strong enough to go on governing India, and your prestige would fall very seriously.
Therefore in bringing forward this Motion to-day I have done so with the firm conviction that the North-West frontier of India is a subject of increasing importance. I feel certain that the noble Lord who answers for the India Office will agree with rue that the present policy is not satisfactory; it is expensive in men, and also in money. I suggest that the whole question should be reconsidered, and that some effort should be made whereby this constant loss of men and treasure might be avoided. After all, if you cannot defend your frontiers which are the keystone of power your arch will fall. I beg to move.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, this Question is one of very great importance to the people of India and also to us who are responsible for their security against murder and robbery on a large part of the frontier of India. It was in 1849 that we annexed the Punjab, and then, in the words of Sir Alfred Lyall, "we carried our territorial frontier across the Indus right up to the foot of the Afghan hills." I fancy that the people who made that momentous decision very little realised at the time where it would lead us, and what it involved. But from that time onwards we have been always confronted with this great problem of the frontier tribes, and that problem has led to a very heavy total loss of life and treasure in the past.
Some years after the annexation passed before we even realised the main factors of the problem of the frontier, and at first I think it must be said that we never had any policy of any kind. There was a long period of raids and counter-raids, leading to innumerable small and great expeditions, which went no way whatever towards solving the great problem of the

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frontier. After that, with the greater knowledge we had gained, we avoided interference with the domestic affairs of the tribes, but we set up a system of subsidies and of levies, local and tribal, which system, as your Lordships are well aware, was very largely extended and developed by the noble Earl the Leader of this House.
It was then possible to withdraw troops to some extent from the frontier and to replace them by the new Militia forces, and it was claimed for that policy—and I think rightly claimed—that it exerted a civilising influence over the tribes. On the whole it proved remarkably successful for nearly twenty years, during which it was tried. But, of course, a great deal depended also upon the capability of the officers whom we employed there. Then there was a bad set-back when we temporarily abandoned the Khyber Pass, and that led to the desertion of a considerable number of our Militia force. But in 1919, at the time of the Afghan invasion, the desertions were on a much greater scale and a considerable part of our levies disappeared, carrying with them their rifles and their military knowledge, either to the Afghans or to the frontier tribes.
Present conditions, so far as I can understand them, do not seem to be quite favourable to a return to this policy on a large scale; because a new generation has grown up among the tribes, a generation which has forgotten the lesson we administered in 1897, and, as the noble Lord has said, the tribes now are far better armed and better trained than their predecessors were. It is always the young tribesmen who are easily accessible to the preaching of the Mullahs, and they can at any time be led either to attack their neighbours or to make a raid into British India. Lord Kitchener, with whom I once discussed this question, was, I believe, entirely in favour of occupying the whole of the tribal territory right up to the Durand line, which is, I think, what my noble friend is now advocating. That was the logical policy, because as a buffer State the tribal territory had proved a most dismal failure. But it would have been very costly, and it would not have been popular probably with the Army, because it would have led to the Army being distributed in a good many posts among the mountains in very unpleasant conditions. I am doubtful whether this policy is now possible because of the doctrine of self-
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determination which, as Mr. Lansing said the other day, "is loaded with dynamite," and which appears to have a good many supporters in this country. There would be a good many people who would say you must not by force impose your rule upon these unwilling and hitherto wholly independent tribes.
The constant troubles on the frontier during the last two years—and they have been worse almost than in any other period that I remember—have forced upon the Government of India, as I understand, a partial adoption of Lord Kitehener's plan. In reply to some very severe questioning in the Legislative Assembly of India, Dr. Sapru stated on behalf of the Government the other day that—
"His Majesty's Government in May last sanctioned the military occupation of the central portion of the Mahsud territory, together with the construction of roads, which experience has shown to be one of the most effective of pacifying influences."
As I understand, that policy is to be applied to the Mahsud territory south of Tochi Pass, and I assume that it means that a really good motor road will be made up to and beyond Bannu and also from Tonk to Wano. Whether there will be a lateral road—and the lateral roads are extraordinarily important—connecting the Tochi and the Gomal routes I do not know; nor do I know whether the road is to be pushed beyond Kohat into the Orakzi territory. I understand that it is also definitely decided that the railway should be extended from Peshawar to Landi Kotal, but to extend it across country through tribal territories between the Khyber and Kurram routes seems impossible.
The objects of the Government of India, as disclosed in this answer, seem to be to occupy positions of strategic importance and to connect them with railheads by motor transport, which is far less vulnerable than the ordinary convoy, which may be said to invite attack. This policy constitutes a somewhat new departure and, perhaps, might be described as, in a sense, experimental. The Government of India have stated that it must take some time and that it would cost a considerable amount of money, but, so far as I understand this policy, it seems to be both sound and wise. Road-making is almost always a gain to any country, as the noble Lord has said, and if we are to hold posts in tribal territory they must be within easy and rapid access of the railheads of India.

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This policy will bring us into closer touch with the Mahsud Waziris and it may be regarded by the other tribes as involving a menace to their independence. It certainly is a policy which, once announced—and it has been announced—must be rigorously carried through to the end without any halting or intervals of delay.
My noble friend has dealt with the aeroplane question most effectively, but I think it must be said that aeroplanes on the frontier generally have proved somewhat disappointing, though that is, of course, because certain parts of the country are eminently unfitted for their use. They will undoubtedly find many uses, and I hope that a good type will be provided in future, which, I think, has not always been the case in past.
The crux of the frontier problem in the future, I believe, lies really with our relations with Afghanistan. I am afraid at the present time, as my noble friend has said, that those relations are very far from being satisfactory. The Amir appears to have made a Treaty with the Bolsheviks and also with the Nationalist Turks, while, at the same time, he seems to have been playing with our Mission at Kabul. Then the Bolsheviks have also made a Treaty with the Kemalist Government at Angora, while we have made a commercial Treaty with the Bolsheviks. Was there ever such a tangle of Treaties as that? Who can possibly say what will come out of it all? What is certain is that an unfriendly Afghanistan, or an Afghanistan which is dominated by Bolsheviks or by Pail-Islam, would add immensely to our difficulties, which are sufficiently great already. I understand—I hope that the noble Earl will be able to say it is not true—that the Bolsheviks have already been trying to tamper with the tribes on the frontier, and, as we all know, money in that part of the world will suffice at any to bring off a raid. I can see no sign at present that the Jewish Government at Moscow has carried out an important part of its Treaty engagements with us.
I read in the Indian papers the other day that Mr. Gandhi had stated that he would not tolerate an Afghan invasion, which sonic of his allies seemed rather to desire. I am afraid that is not a very sufficient or effective defence for the Indian frontier, which must remain for a long time a source of anxiety in spite of Mr. Gandhi's wonderful oratorical powers.
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For many years the responsibility for the frontier must rest wholly upon us, and cannot rest upon the new form of government which we are imposing upon India. Your Lordships may not realise that the new Legislative Council in India, which, as I have already said, is dealing, or wishes to deal, with frontier questions, rests upon the votes of 180,000 out of 215,000.000 people in British India. That is just as I if the House of Commons was returned by considerably less than 40,000 voters and yet called itself representative of the masses. The main thing, after all, will be the efficiency of the Army in India and its readiness for action at all times on the frontier. That must continue to be the chief security of the people of India, and. I must confess, as said the other day, that I am alarmed at the extent of the reductions which have been made already.
Whatever we do the frontier must continue to make heavy demands upon the Budget of the Government of India, but I should like to point out that some of the figures which are given are, to a certain extent, misleading. Those figures, as I understand them, relate only to the Revenues which are handled by the Government of India and which naturally appear very high in comparison with the corresponding figures of other countries. But if the percentage is taken upon the whole of the Revenues of India, both imperial and Provincial, I think it will be found to be very moderate, having regard to the exceptional conditions of danger which my noble friend has so ably de scribed. I am very glad that he has raised this Question to-day, because it will enable the noble Earl to clear up a great many points which, to me, as an obsolete soldier, are not yet quite clear.
VISCOUNT CHELMSFORD: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies I should like to say a word or two with regard to the very interesting speech which the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, has made with reference to the frontier of India. While I was in India the Government of India were very much indebted to the noble Lord for his expert assistance in connection with roads and motor transport. But I cannot help thinking, if he will permit me to say so, that he is rather apt to look at these things through his motor goggles. There are many other items of expenditure on which the military authorities in India

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spend large sums. It is quite true that motor transport and roads are most essential matters, but they must take their places with other essential things which are required for military purposes.
The noble Lord very properly pointed out that the tribesmen on the frontier are a much more formidable force at the present moment than they were a good many years ago. That is due in the main to two causes. It may be within the recollection of your Lordships that 'at the beginning of the war all the trans-border Pathans had to be disbanded from our Indian regiments as, owing to their religious proclivities, we had found that they were not to be relied upon. When those trans-border Pathans had been dispensed with throughout the Indian Army as a portion of our fighting forces they naturally went back to the tribes from which they had originally come. Similarly, under the frontier policy which had prevailed for some twenty years, as the noble Lord, Lord Sydenham, has pointed out, the whole of the Militia system on the frontier, with the exception of a certain portion of Militia and the Kurram Rifles which remained firm because they were Shiahs in the midst of Sunnies, crumbled away, and all those men returned to their tribes, taking with them, as Lord Sydenham has pointed out, not only their rifles but their military knowledge.
It is an extremely interesting fact that in the last Mahsud campaign about a year ago the Malisuds attacked us under the strictest military discipline. They advanced to the sound of the whistle and had covering fire very carefully arranged to cover their advance. In fact, they were well instructed in all the latest military devices which had been taught our Army by our officers. On that side you have a much more formidable problem to-day on the North-West frontier than you had twenty years ago. But you have also this element in the situation, that owing to the dilution of our Indian Army during the great war our Indian troops are not up to the same standard of training, especially in frontier warfare, as they were in pre-war days. I happened to proceed along the frontier at the end of the Afghan War, going up to Dakka and other places that the noble Lord mentioned. During that tour I took occasion to question the commanding officer of every Indian regiment and I was informed, that only about 20
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per cent. of his regiment were trained men, that the rest were recruits who had been brought in for the purposes of the great war and were insufficiently trained, and that with all the trained officers there was only one officer besides himself who had had any experience in frontier warfare.
I well recollect that a certain Brigadier-General, who visited me at Simla in 1920, told me that he found that it was necessary during the course of the last expedition to place the pickets himself. The noble Lord, Lord. Sydenham, will realise that placing the pickets in advance on the frontier is a matter that is usually done by a subaltern, or a captain. That was the condition of the training of our troops when we had to undertake the very formidable operations the other day. You have, therefore, a combination on the one hand bf the increased efficiency of the frontier tribes, and, on the other hand, of a great decrease in efficiency on the part of our troops. The consequence was that during the Afghan campaign and the recent operations we had to use forces in numbers out of all proportion to those that have been necessary in previous campaigns. So far as the efficiency of our troops is concerned, I hope that is only a matter of time. They are learning every day, especially those who are up now in the Mahsud country. That is the concrete position with regard to the fighting on the frontier.
Taking the larger question, the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, put before us two alternative policies. One was "Stay where you are"; the other, "take over the tribes." That is putting it baldly. The noble Lord, Lord Sydenham, pointed out that for the last twenty years the policy, which is identified very largely with the noble Earl, Lord Curzon, had been eminently successful. But we have to remember that that was so largely because we had no Afghan trouble during that time. It was when Afghanistan intervened, and when the whole religious question came to the fore, that the tribes threw in their lot with their co-religionists. The whole trouble began with the incursion of the Afghan Army in 1919. With regard to the "Stay where you are" policy, we were able last year to make a real departure from that policy in connection with the Mahsuds. We obtained leave from His Majesty's Government to advance into the Mahsud country, to occupy that country, and to make a quadrilateral of roads. I am afraid that I

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cannot at this moment recollect the exact corners of the quadrilateral, but those roads would settle the whole position in the Mahsud country. That is a policy which is entirely in accord with what Lord Montagu put forward to-day. But it is one thing when you are dealing with a small area, and it is another thing to take over a whole country— a most difficult country where, as the noble Lord has pointed out, there are some 400,000 fighting Mien. It is a big proposition to take over the whole of that country right up to the Durand line. However, what we did may have the effect of being a salutary warning to the other tribes that if they misbehave in the same way that the Mahsuds have misbehaved the same fate would overtake them. I should be inclined to allow the Government of India ample time in which to follow the policy that they have adopted with reference to the Mahsuds.
Both noble Lords have alluded to the Afghan Mission. I think we must be patient in the matter of the Afghan Mission. If I am not incorrect, Sir Louis Dane's Mission, which went out there in Lord Curzon's time, was there over a year, and when it came down it had not accomplished very much. I have every hope, however, that we are going to accomplish something through the more recent Mission. At all events, we have accomplished this already. Except for communications with Afghanistan, letters passing between us and the Amir, we have had no thrashing out of the misunderstandings which existed between Afghanistan and ourselves from the date of the Dane Mission until the Mussoorie Conference of last year. The discussions which are now going on will, I am confident, have a very salutary' effect, inasmuch as they will make Afghanistan realise how far we are prepared to go and what we are not prepared to do. After all, if we achieve that it will be something. I am hopeful with regard to it.
We have to remember that Orientals procrastinate in their negotiations; indeed, they would not regard it as being consonant with their dignity unless they took some time over discussions of this sort. Therefore, we must be patient, but I have every hope that we may get something really valuable out of the work of the Mission which is now at Kabul. I will not say any more, because I think it will be most unfortunate if, at this time, when the Mission is still negotiating, anything were to be
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said here which might in any way be misunderstood, or which would prejudice those negotiations. I should, however, like to say that I think the Government of India owe a very great debt to Sir Henry Dobbs, the head of that Mission, for the admirable patience and wonderful skill with which he has conducted the conversations so far as they have gone.
Touching on one or two smaller points which the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, mentioned, I would like to point out, as regards the railway in the Khyber, that that policy has already been laid down. The railway is going to be completed, and is progressing. No doubt the noble Earl will be able to give the latest information regarding it. When I left India it was progressing very well. So far, the tribesmen had not shown any great hostility to it, and were accepting the position, in the main, in a most wonderful spirit. I should like to correct one statement that the noble Lord made with regard to the railway to Dusdap. That railway was never planned with any reference to Afghanistan. It was planned in order that we might be able to supply that little force of ours that was at Meshed. Moreover, in the early days the consideration was had in view that, supposing there was an incursion in the direction of Afghanistan, we might quickly get a force round that way. As the noble Lord knows, the railway goes to the South of Afghanistan, and then takes a turn North into Persia. As regards the railway itself I may say that I have pressed all along that it should go beyond the point which has been mentioned. I should like to see it go over that very rough and desert country as far as Neh. If that were done it would probably have some commercial value. I doubt if it is of any strategical value now, and if we are not able to develop the caravan traffic along that route it may just as well be torn up, and the rails given to the Government of India for use in India.
I do not think there is anything that I can usefully add to what the noble Lord has already told your Lordships with regard to this matter. It is undoubtedly a most important Question, and it might perhaps have been better if it had been discussed on the large side rather than in its details. The whole subject of the -frontier policy is one of immense importance. I should not quite take the gloomy view that the noble Lord has done with

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regard to the present situation, because I think that the forces on the frontier are ample sufficient at the present moment to control the situation, and even if there is any incursion they will be sufficient to deal with it. The House is indebted to the noble Lord for bringing up the subject, and I am glad he has done so.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, the Question raised, as every speaker has admitted, is extremely interesting and important. There are, of course, one or two aspects of it which I am debarred from discussing by military reasons, and I. am sure the noble Lord will be the first to appreciate this. That applies also to the question of our present Mission to Afghanistan, which is not raised directly by the Question, and on which I am not able to give him at this moment any information. The immense advantage we derive from the presence of Lord Chelmsford in this House and the authoritative speech he has just made relieve me of the necessity of replying to a number of points raised in the debate. I have not the advantage of being personally acquainted with the country and can only give to the noble Lord the information I have obtained from the Department with regard to the points specifically referred to in his Motion.
The noble Lord has divided his Question into two headings, and has asked me what steps, both military and civil, are being taken to provide for the efficient defence of the North-West frontier of India. I will deal first of all with the civil measures which have been taken. The one most directly affecting the problem is that which relates to the provision of the Militia corps and levies recruited from the tribesmen to which Lord Sydenham referred. It is well known, as has been admitted by previous speakers, that when the Afghan incursion of 1919 took place some of our Militia corps, which had clone excellent work for many years, in fact ever since the settlement following the last great tribal rising in 1897, failed us, under the stress of hitherto unexampled temptation to join our enemies. Probably too great reliance was placed on these irregular corps, but, be that as it may, some of them, notably the Waziristan Militia and the Zhob levies proved unequal to the strain. The Khyber Rifles, who were given the chance of taking their discharge before they had committed themselves too far, took advantage of this offer to a large extent. The Kurram
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I Militia and the newly constituted Mohmund Militia, on the other hand, remained stedfast.
As the result of that experience, the policy on this matter has been largely modified. In the plans for the future the local levies and Militia have been to a great extent relieved of the responsibility of offering sufficient resistance to an enemy to allow time for the arrival of Regular Troops. In future, as I shall explain in a moment or two when I come to state the military measures, the covering force, behind which the striking force of the Army is to concentrate, will be composed of Regular Troops, supplemented only by levies and Militia as auxiliaries. The opportunity has therefore been taken to reconstitute these Militia corps, which were dissolved after the fighting of 1919, into units of a less regular nature, and, it is hoped, better adapted to fill the role of irregular auxiliaries. They will consist of a Khassadar corps in the Khyber area numbering about 900; a North Waziristan constabulary of a strength of 1,100, or rather less; a South Waziristan constabulary of a similar strength, and Zhob levies which, with the Zhob tribal scouts, will have a strength of about 1,400. Other corps, such as, for example, the Mohmund Militia, remain generally in their former shape.
Under the head of civil measures come also the steps that are being taken, and, in some cases (as with the Afridis, except the Zakka Khel), have already been taken successfully, to bring about settlements with the tribesmen along the frontier. Employment in the various levy corps and Militia, and on the works in progress, such as the roads and railways under construction, affords a valuable inducement to good behaviour, but both in the Khyber and Waziristan, it has been found necessary, as Lord Sydenham mentioned, to occupy the country of the tribesmen with military forces. How long this occupation will have to last, and in what strength, it is impossible at this moment to foretell, but the Government of India is determined not to let the present opportunity slip of concluding the best and most enduring settlement it can devise with the tribesmen.
The noble Lord asks me for some information as to the progress of the Khyber railway. The occupation of the Khyber with troops has necessitated the construction of a railway up the Pass in order that

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the troops may be adequately maintained with all that is necessary, both in peace and war. The railway is a continuation of the standard 5 ft. 6 in. gauge line which has hitherto terminated at Jamrud, and its completion will enable the troops and stores to be railed without trans-shipment or break from any point on the broad gauge system of India to Landi Kotal at the summit of the Khyber, where, on a wide elevated plain, there are facilities for the concentration of a considerable number of troops. The necessity for this railway was brought home to us in the operations of 1919, when, as a makeshift, an elevated wire ropeway was erected for the transportation of stores. This ropeway is still working, and will, no doubt, continue to do good service until the railway is completed. At present earth work is in hand and making good progress along most of the alignment; culverts and retaining walls are in hand and some 400 feet of tunnelling has been accomplished. In addition to this a great deal of work in connection with camps and quarters for the construction personnel has been done, but apart from construction sidings at Jan crud, the stage of laying rails has not yet been reached.
Now I come to the military measures on which the noble Lord also asks for information. The more purely military steps that are being taken to provide for the efficient defence of the North-West frontier may be summarised under two general heads— namely, (1) the provision and organisation of forces suitable for (healing with our possible enemies on the frontier, and (2) the improvement of communication along the frontier. As regards the former, the Army available for operations on the frontier consists, in the first place, of a covering force along the frontier of sufficient strength to maintain its advanced position and to hold off hostile attacks until there has been time to mobilise and concentrate in its required positions the second main portion of the Army, the striking force, composed of Air Forces and of all arms, organised into brigades, divisions and Army troops, suitable for operating in the mountainous terrain of the frontier.
For the reasons I have mentioned I cannot give any precise particulars as to the strength, composition, and. exact disposition of these forces. I may, however, mention that their relative strengths are liable to vary according to circumstances.
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For instance, under favourable conditions, it might be possible to increase the striking force by releasing some of the troops which have to be locked up in the advanced positions allotted to the covering force when conditions are disturbed on the frontier; the guiding principle being that sufficient time should be afforded to the brigades and divisions of the striking force to mobilise and move into their positions undisturbed.
The composition of both the covering and striking forces has been decided upon with due regard to the character and armament of the enemy it is thought that they are most likely to have to encounter and to the nature of the country. As the noble Lord is well aware, the country on the North-West frontier imposes limitations upon the numbers of men and animals that can be employed in military operations, and, for this reason, the efforts of the military authorities in India have been directed to making the greatest possible use of modern mechanical appliances. Apart from the Air Force, with which India is now well equipped, attention has been directed to the necessity of evolving a type of tank suitable to hot countries and mountainous ground, and to the provision of armoured cars, improved artillery, and, particularly, of pack or mountain howitzers.
Perhaps one of the most important improvements, however, consists in the provision of a very large amount of mechanical transport to serve the forces taking the field. It is unnecessary to dwell on the importance of mechanical transport in increasing the efficiency of the Army, but in this case it is perhaps permissible to allude to the immense change brought about by the substitution of lorries capable of carrying heavy loads for many miles a day for slow-moving animal transport of very limited daily range, encumbered with numerous attendants, occupying miles of road space, and with a useful carrying load which diminishes rapidly with the length of the communications and the need for carrying the food of its own animals and drivers. The noble Lord wanted to he assured that this policy of an increase of motor transport was being continued. I can assure him that it is. To enable the continually increasing mechanical transport to be in a state of constant efficiency, extensive workshops have been established at Chaklala, near Rawal Pindi, and an establishment of British and Indian per-

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sonnel for these workshops has been sanctioned. It is hoped to complete this establishment in the course of next autumn and winter.
The subject of mechanical transport leads naturally to that of the roads, upon which my noble friend is so great an expert. I agree entirely with all he has said of the importance of the roads everywhere, but more particularly in this district, and I can assure him that their value is appreciated by the Government of India. The extent to which the roads are being developed is determined solely by financial considerations and the funds available. To begin with the Khyber, the two roads up the Pass were last year reported to he practically completed, with the exception of some of the bridges over nullah beds, so as to take mechanical transport traffic, the width of metalling being sixteen feet. I regret that I have to refer to a number of places which will be meaningless to your Lordships without reference to a map, but the noble Lord, Lord Montagu, is familiar with the district, and perhaps he will be able to follow me. The following further roads were reported at the same time to be either completed or practically completed up to a similar standard, except that in a few eases the width of metalling has been limited to twelve feet:—Nowshera-Malakand Pass-Chakdara; Peshawar-Shabkadar-Abazai; Shabkadar-Michni; PeshawarMichni; Landi Kotal-Kam Shilman; Kohat - Thall-Parachinar; and Bannu-Miranshah. All of these are either completed or practically completed. The list is not exhaustive, as work is in progress on other roads as well, ell, though some of those, in the more advanced positions, are designed to take only cart traffic.
In Waziristan work is in progress on a very important series of motor roads which are designed to form one of the roost important elements in the pacification of this country. The principal of these roads in Waziristan is the one leading from Murtaza, which is on the 2 ft. 6 in. railway line connecting the Indus at Kalabagh, past Khirgi, to which the same railway has now been extended, near the mouth of the Tank river, and Jandola to Ladha, where the main portion of our forces occupying the Mahsud country are at present cantoned. It is intended ultimately to continue this road to a point in the Tochi Valley, probably near Boya, and then down the valley to Miranshah. Further to the south a
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road will run from Murtaza, on the 2 ft. 6 in. railway, up the Gomal river to Kajuri Kach, with a cart road continuing to Toi Khula, some ten or twelve miles further up the valley. The completion of these roads, together with the occupation of the country, will, it is hoped, have a pacifying effect on the particularly turbulent tribesmen of this part of the frontier.
Further to the south we come to Quetta as the centre of a road and railway system. It has long been recognised that a serious deficiency in our frontier communications is the lack of either a railway or a motor road connecting the Gomal Valley with the Quetta system, through the Zhob Valley. Lack of funds, however, has hitherto prevented this defect from being remedied. A narrow gauge mineral line, however, runs from Khanai on the standard gauge railway Dr the chrome mines near Hindubagh, and so forms the germ of possible future improved communications. Also the road from Harnai, on the same standard gauge railway, as far as Loralai, a matter of some fifty miles, is being improved to fit it to take mechanical transport.
It has been considered more important to improve the road from Sibi, at the eastern end of the Bolan Pass, to Quetta, in order to afford relief to the portion of the railway on which the steepest gradients occur. This road is being made fit for the passage of motor traffic with 12 inches of metalling. Proposals arc also under consideration for the improvement of the road from Quetta to Chaman to fit it for the passage of mechanical transport throughout. Apart from the main improvements in rail and road comminications along the frontier, steps have been taken to improve the sidings and trans-shipping and unloading facilities at the various railheads, the principal of which are Dargai, at the foot of the Malakand Pass and at the head of the narrow gauge line from Nowshera; at Jamrud, at the mouth of the Khyber; at Kohat, where the change from the 5 ft. 6 in. to the 2 ft. 6 in. gauge railway occurs: at Thall, at the head of the same narrow gauge line; at Mari-Indus, where trans-shipment occurs across the Indus by steam ferry to another narrow gauge railway starting from Kalabagh on the western bank of the river; at Bannu and at Khirgi, at the head of the two branches of this line.
In connection with the subject of the roads on the frontier and of the mechanical

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transport whose use they are designed to facilitate, I would like to take this opportunity of acknowledging the great obligation which we are under to the noble Lord, for the invaluable work which he has done in this connection in India, and for the advice which he has given to us on the subject during the last few years. I have given the noble Lord all the information which I have been able to obtain, but I feel that I owe you some apology for having to make a statement which was necessarily very technical, and to refer to places which are unfamiliar to many of your Lordships, but I could not otherwise give to the noble Lord all the information which he required. I hope that my statement may be of more interest when it is read than it could possibly have been to those who have had to listen to it.
MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his most interesting reply to my Question, and also to join with him in thanking Lord Chelmsford for his most interesting speech, which, coming from such a source, was a matter of great gratification to us. Lord Chelmsford referred to my being apt to look at things through motor goggles. I suppose it was a perfectly legitimate comment. I will only reply by saving that when you are looking at the North-West frontier, and the equipment of armies, you have to look at those matters through very modern spectacles. It is no good thinking about bows and arrows. I am glad to hear that the Mahsud country has been taken over definitely, and I hope that it may be an augury of the taking over of other parts of the frontier later on. As regards the question of expenditure on frontier matters, I agree with the noble Lord who said you must cut your coat according to your cloth. The North-West frontier, however, is more important than any other military district in India, and it seems to me that some of the provision utilised in the rest of India might be economised, and more money spent on the frontier. I beg to thank noble Lords who have spoken, and the noble Earl who replied for the India Office for his remarks.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

AFFRAY AT NANKANA SAHEB.
LORD SYDENHAM LORD SYDENHAM rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he could give the House information as to
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the causes and extent of the recent deplorable loss of life at Nankana Saheb. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think it is important, for two main reasons, that the true facts about the tragedy at Nankana Saheb should be made public in the first place, the blame for all the heavy loss of life which occurred there has beep thrown upon the Government. Mr. Gandhi, directly after the event, went to Nankana Saheb and made a speech in which he deprecated the prosecution of offenders. In other words, he suggested that the law should not take its course, because the only means of preventing these occurrences was to get rid of this Satanic Government. This speech was intended to give a lead to extremists in exploiting the tragedy for political purposes, and it has been perfectly successful.
In April, at a crowded meeting in Beadon Square, Calcutta, a resolution was unanimously passed stating that "such horrible deeds as the Nankana Saheb massacre will not cease so long as the present system of government exists in this country," and that "the massacre could not have taken place if the police and other officials had been true to their unties." There are a number of other Sikh shrines in the Punjab which have been seized by the Akali party, and in the case of the Taran Taran, at least, loss of life occurred. So far as I know no attempt has been made by the Government of India to reply to the charges to which I have referred, and. I am sure that the noble Earl will deal with this point in his reply to me.
In the second place, the whole incident is another warning of the very violent forces which are always alive in India and ready to assert themselves if it is considered that the power and authority of the Government are weakening. Not long ago we had the very shocking occurrences in Behar and at Katapur, where harmless villagers were murdered and outraged by Hindu mobs at a time when the titular leaders of their communities were engaged in friendly conferences. When I drew attention to these very disgraceful proceedings the then Under-Secretary of State said they were due to the fanaticism of ignorant people of the lower classes. Unfortunately, the inquiries proved that the mobs were led by upper caste Hindus, who had not the excuse of ignorance. Since then serious outbreaks have occurred

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at Malegaon, in the Bombay Presidency, and on the Bengal coalfields, to which I referred the other day. Details of these grave occurrences, and of their causes, have not yet been made public, and there have been other incidents of the same kind which have never been reported in this country.
Among the 315,000,000 people of India barely 3,000,000 are Sikhs, and yet the slaughter at Nankana Saheb occurred as a result of domestic quarrels among this small sect. It has been stated that between 200 and 300 lives were lost, but, as many bodies were burned immediately, the exact figures will probably never be obtained. At any rate, it seems clear that this sectional quarrel caused the loss of more than half the number of lives sacrificed in suppressing the most dangerous conspiracy since the Mutiny. At the present time it seems the fashion for mobs to shout "Hindu-Musulman ki Jai" on all occasions, but if any one believes that the dangerous antagonisms—racial, religious, sectarian—always latent in India, are passing away, he will be bitterly disappointed. These forces have their roots deep in the long distant past, and nothing but the knowledge that the Government is powerful enough, and determined enough, to suppress them will enable the peace of India to be maintained. We have now had warnings in abundance, and I can only hope that they will be taken to heart. For the reasons I have given I trust that your Lordships will consider that I am justified in asking for information.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, the deplorable incident at Nankana Saheb to which the noble Lord has referred was the result of a religious dispute between two sections of the Sikh community. It had no political significance, and the Government were in no way concerned in the matter, except to restore order and take such steps as might he necessary to prevent further bloodshed. They were in no way responsible for the casualties which occurred, and the suggestion that Government officials had any complicity in the matter was a mischievous libel (originating, I think, in Lajpat Rai's paper), which was afterwards withdrawn with apologies, although no doubt the purpose for which it was made—namely, to discredit the Government in the eyes of the Sikhs—had been accomplished before it was withdrawn and the apology made. I am sure
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that the noble Lord does not think that the Government had any complicity in the matter, but before I give him the information for which he asks I desire to make that perfectly clear.
As my noble friend is aware, the cause of the disputes which have led to affrays among the Sikh is the declared intention of the Religious Reform Party to obtain control over the management of all Sikh Gurdwaras and shrines. The main complaint of the Reform Party is that under the arrangements countenanced by the Old Sikh or Sanatanist Party, practically all the Sikh Gurdwaras have been for years controlled by Mahants, or resident priests, who had a wide discretion as to the management of the revenues, and were not necessarily Sikhs themselves, being in some cases Hindus. Without attempting to pronounce upon the merits of the disputes, it is safe to say that this is one of those cases in which a party, which takes the reformation of worship as its principle, alleges mismanagement, malversation and general laxity leading to great abuses on the part of the existing guardians of the shrines, while the party in possession regards the malcontents as inspired by a desire for plunder.
The Akali Jathas, bands of volunteers who form the more violent section of the reformers, are reported to include a number of lawless and disorderly persons as well as genuine religious zealots, and their recourse to violent action is perhaps, to some extent, due to the failure some years ago of suits brought in the Civil Courts to dispossess certain Mahants of their shrines. In November and December last the reforming party seized several shrines at Sialkot and elsewhere, and in January a serious fight took place at Taran Taran, near Amritsar. Unfortunately, non-co-operating agitators induced both parties on that occasion to refrain from giving any evidence to the authorities.
It appears that the Mahant of the shrine at Nankana, which is famous as the reputed birth-place of the Guru Nanak, and is very rich, was much alarmed at the success of the Akali Jathas in other places. On November 27 a band of reformers came to the temple armed with kirpans and axes, and a party of Sadhus, friends of the Mahants, prepared to oppose them, but violence was prevented by the tactful action of the police. The Punjab Government, desiring to maintain an attitude of

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strict religious neutrality, considered that it should be left to the interested parties to move the Courts. If the Mahant had reason to fear violence he could either furnish information to a magistrate and ask that his opponents should be made to give security to keep the peace, or he could apply to the Civil Courts for an injunction to restrain persons carrying weapons from entering the shrine. The authorities were ready to supply police protection to the Mahant. He had, early in January, telegraphed to the Government that there would be a forcible attempt to seize the shrine, but no such attempt was then made, and he does not appear to have taken any step to obtain protection from the Courts.
As the case is sub judice, it is impossible to express an opinion on the culpability of different parties for the deplorable events of February 20. But it seems clear that on that day an Akali Jatha of about one hundred men entered the temple soon after daybreak and was fired upon from the roofs of the buildings which surround the courtyard. The assailants then came down and attacked the Akalis with axes and lathis: the dead bodies were smeared with kerosene and set on fire. The flames were still burning when the Deputy Commissioner, who was in camp at a village some miles off when he heard of the affray, arrived on the scene. The Sikhs state that 135 persons were killed, and the total may amount to this number, though the latest information in my possession shows that the police were certain of
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88 deaths. Troops were at once summoned from Lahore, which is 50 miles away, and they arrived that evening, accompanied by the Commissioner of the Division. The shrine was taken over by the authorities, but subsequently transferred by the Commissioner to a representative committee of Sikh gentlemen. The Mahant and a retinue of twenty-six Pathans, whom he had recently engaged, were arrested and sent to Lahore, where they arc being tried.
General orders were issued on February 22 that when a dispute likely to cause violence arose over any shrine the subject of the dispute was to be temporarily "attached" by the district magistrate, due provision being made for the continuance of customary worship. In several subsequent cases bands which have seized shrines have been ejected by the authorities, and bands wandering about the Province are being dealt with either by disarming at once, if practicable, or by prosecution under the Arms Act. Meanwhile, legislation for amending the law regarding shrines has been prepared, but I understand that, the draft Bill has given rise to much diversity of opinion in India.
LORD SYDENHAM: I thank the noble Earl for his very clear statement, which will completely dispose of the charges to which I have referred.
House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock.

JOURNAL COMMITTEE.
Report from, that the One Hundred and Fifty-second Volume of the Journals (10th and 11th George V., 1920), with an Index, was ready for delivery; read, ordered to lie on the Table; and the said Volume ordered to be delivered in the same manner as the preceding Volumes of the Journal have been delivered.

CONSOLIDATION BILL PROCEDURE.
Message from the Commons that they have appointed a Select Committee of five Members to join with the Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of the 11th instant, to consider all Consolidation Bills in the present session.
A Message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room C, to-morrow, at Twelve o'clock.

LIMERICK MARKETS BILL.
  BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION (RAILWAY TRANSFER) BILL.
    WREXHAM AND EAST DENBIGHSHIRE WATER BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read lª; and referred to the Examiners.
    PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 2) BILL.
    Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
    HERTS AND ESSEX WATER BILL.
    Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.

    STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
    Second Report from the Committee (with an Appendix) made, and to be printed.
    The Evidence taken before the Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit until further order.

SOUTH EAST ESSEX WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  SOUTHEND WATER BILL. [H.L.]
    SOUTH ESSEX WATERWORKS BILL. [H.L.]
    Report from the Select Committee that the Committee adjourned on Thursday, the 26th instant, for the convenience of parties; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: Leave given to the Select Committee not to sit again till Monday, the 6th of June next.
    SOUTH EAST ESSEX WATER BILL. H.L.
    Report from the Select Committee that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table, and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

TAF FECHAN VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
TAF FECHAN WATER SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
RHYMNEY VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
RYHMNEY AND ABER VALLEYS GAS AND
WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that Lord Seaforth be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of Lord Farrer; read, and agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments bad laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Newcastle-under-Lyme Extension), [H.L.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Ossett and Wakefield Extension), [H.L.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 1).
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3).
Also the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Sutton District Waterworks.

East Surrey Water.

Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill;
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 2).
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for the following Bill:
Londonderry Corporation Bridge.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING NDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for a Bill by the
Slough Trading Company, Limited
ought to be dispensed with and leave given to introduce the Bill:
And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the
Batley Corporation Bill
ought to be dispensed with.
Read, and agreed to.

SLOUGH TRADING COMPANY, LIMITED (CANAL), BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day); read lª; and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (DOVER EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  SUNDERLAND AND SOUTH SHIELDS WATER BILL.
  Committed: The Committees to he proposed by the Committee of Selection.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
HAMILTON'S DIVORCE BILL, [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for Tuesday the 7th of June) put off sine die.
PRESTON'S DIVORCE BILL, [H.L.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had received by post from the Lord Justice of the King's Bench Divsion of the High Court of Justice in Ireland, a report of the Proceedings upon the inquiry before him in the case of Preston v. Graeme. The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
EDUCATION (CONSOLIDATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
CAPTIVE BIRDS SHOOTING (PROHIBITION) BILL.
Petition against; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.