Sitting of 15 June 1921

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Eastbourne Waterworks Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

NEW WRITS.
County of Armagh (Mid - Armagh Division) in the room of JAMES ROLSTON LONSDALE, Esquire, deceased.—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
Borough of Belfast (Duncairn Division) in the room of the right hon. Sir EDWARD HENRY CARSON, K. C., now Baron Carson of Duncairn, Lord of Appeal in Ordinary.—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]

EAST INDIA (FINANCIAL STATEMENT AND BUDGET).
Address for "Return of the Indian Financial Statement and Budget for 1921–22, and discussions thereon in the Indian Legislature (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 103, of 1920)."—[Mr. Montagu.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SANTO DOMINGO.
  Major C. LOWTHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Government of the United States of America has announced its intention of withdrawing its troops from the Republic of Santo Domingo; whether he can give the House any information on the subject; and whether he has any information as
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  to the intentions of the American Government to also withdraw its armed forces from the Republic of Hayti?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): A proclamation indicating the intention of the United States Government gradually to withdraw from Santo Domingo was published in December last. I have no later official information an the subject, nor as to the intentions of the United States Government as regards the withdrawal of their troops from Hayti.

  CHINA (CONSORTIUM).
  Mr. STEWARTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Chinese Government has ever sent to the Powers directly interested any statement of her views on the policy of the Consortium; and, if so, whether he will inform the House of its purport.
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: No such communication has reached His Majesty's Government since the formation of the new Consortium in October last.

  GREECE AND TURKEY.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has information regarding the alleged destruction by Greek soldiers of the tomb of Orkhan Ghazi, of the alleged attempt made to destroy the mosque of Oulou at Brusa, of alleged outrages perpetrated by Greek sailors at Ismid, who mutilated and murdered Turkish men, women, and children, of the plunder of the property of Turks in Thrace, of the alleged plunder, outrage, and mutilation at Ushak; whether the Greek commander at Smyrna, one of the chief ports of the Ottoman empire, has flogged inhabitants for exhibiting the Turkish flag; and whether he can make any statement as to the authenticity of these reports?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: His Majesty's Government have no information as to these particular allegations. Many complaints of Greek and Turkish outrages have, however, been received and, as far as practicable, investigated. As the House has already been informed, representations have been made to the Greek

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  Government on the subject of Greek outrages which were found to have been committed in the Ismid area.
  Lieut - Commander KENWORTHY: When a reply has been received, will the hon. Gentleman communicate it to the House?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I will consider that.
  Sir J. D. REES: Will my hon. Friend pursue the subject with all the zeal that is shown whenever charges are made of outrages by the Turks against Armenians?
  Mr. A. HERBERT: Wherever it is practicable will the hon. Gentleman publish the information which we have, as our long silence and reticence on all these questions produce a very unfavourable impression with regard to our neutrality?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: Yes. We shall publish it when we have it officially confirmed.
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether the French or the Italians are arranging to remove or have removed their troops from Asia Minor; and, if so, whether British troops will also be withdrawn across the Bosphorus rather than risk opening up a fresh military adventure in co-operation with the Constantinian Greeks?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House): The Italians have withdrawn their forces from Adalia. There is no present intention of withdrawing British troops across the Bosphorus, and still less is there any intention of embarking upon military adventures in Turkey.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the latest pronouncement of the Angora Government, defying the British Government, and declaring they are going to free India and Egypt, and is it authoritative?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, I have not seen that.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYasked the Prime Minister if he will inform the House of the present situation at Constantinople and in Asia Minor; and whether negotiations for peace between the Greek and Turkish nationalist forces are still in progress?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave on Monday last to a question by the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman any statement to make regarding the suggested Greek offensive? Is it going to take place?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I certainly cannot give answers as to the intentions of the Greek Government.

  RUSSIA.

    TRADE DELEGATION.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if a delegation has been, or is to be, sent to Russia with a view to ascertaining the prospects of trade with this country?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): An official delegation will shortly be sent to Russia in accordance with Article 5 of the Trade Agreement.
    Mr. BRIANT: Will the hon. Gentleman secure that the majority understand Russian, as it is most important in the interests of trade that those who understand Russian should go?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I have already answered that question on another occasion. All those selected for this Mission have a full knowledge of the Russian language, and speak and write it, and have a full knowledge of Russian conditions from their experience in Russia.

    EASTERN SIBERIA.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state what information he has respecting the situation in Vladivostock, the maritime province of Siberia, and the Island of Sakhalin; whether a British Consular Officer, or other representative of His Majesty, is in the districts affected by the recent attempt at counter-revolution; if he is aware that the recent coup d'état setting up a counter-revolutionary government at Vladivostock was undertaken with Japanese assistance and support; whether the Russian portion of Sakhalin has been

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    occupied by the Japanese; and whether the Japanese Government has consulted His Majesty's Government with reference to these actions?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave him on 8th June, since when the situation has not altered materially. The position of His Majesty's Consul at Vladivostock has not been affected by recent events at that place. His Majesty's Government are not aware that the Japanese have given any support to the counter - revolutionary movement. Northern Saghalien has been occupied by the Japanese for some time past. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these troops took part in the fighting against the Government troops, assisted the Czarist troops and actually hoisted the Czarist flag on the public buildings of Vladivostock, and how can he say that he has no knowledge of these events?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman has any information I have not got and will give it to me I shall be glad.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the hon. Gentleman cable our representative at Vladivostock asking whether the Japanese did take any part in the counter-revolution?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I will carefully consider that.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the papers have full accounts of these proceedings, and how is it that he is not in a position to confirm or deny them?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman recognises that I can only give this House information which is officially confirmed.

    TRADE AGREEMENT.
    Sir R. CLOUGHasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any practical results in the shape of actual trade have, as yet, followed the conclusion of the Anglo-Soviet Agreement?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on the 6th instant to the hon. Member for West Ham.

    BRITISH REFUGEES.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, considering that Russian refugees are maintained in Cyprus at the expense of the State, similar treatment can be accorded to British refugees from Russia, many of whom at the present time have to be maintained by Poor Law relief?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir A. Mond): I have been asked to reply. I am afraid I can add nothing to the answers which I gave to previous questions put on this subject by my hon. Friend.

    NATIONALITY LAW.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the great urgency of obtaining British citizenship for the children of parents of British blood born in Portugal and other foreign countries, and having regard to the desirability of agreeing to any necessary legislation with the self-governing dominions, he will take the necessary steps to have this matter brought up at the forthcoming Imperial Conference?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir J. Baird): It does not lie within the Home Secretary's power, or within that of my hon. Friend, who has asked me to answer this question, to determine the subjects which can be dealt with at the coming conference of Prime Ministers, and I know their time will be very fully occupied. But if any opportunity can be found of advancing the consideration of this question, we shall do our best to make use of it.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Will the Home Secretary make it his business to represent to the Prime Minister and those responsible for the agenda of the Imperial Conference the importance of this matter and the keenness with which it is felt by British subjects resident in foreign parts?
    Sir J. BAIRD: Of course, that is done, but my hon. Friend might raise the question on Friday in Debate.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    H.M.S. "GLATTON."
    Sir T. POLSONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is now proposed to salve H.M.S. "Glatton," sunk in Dover Harbour in the early days of the late War?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Amery): The Admiralty have given full and continued consideration to the question of salving or dispersing His Majesty's Ship "Glatton" since she was sunk in the harbour in September, 1918. In view of all the circumstances, viz. that the wreck does not lie immediately in the fairway of ordinary navigation, that the hull is visible at all states of the tide and is suitably marked by night, their Lordships do not consider that the large expense that would be involved in attempting to raise or disperse the vessel, which is practically overturned, is justifiable, particularly at the present time of financial stringency.
    Sir T. POLSON: Will my hon. and gallant Friend kindly look into this matter, from the point of view whether this operation might not be conducted profitably, and at the same time assist to relieve unemployment in the district?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is this the first effort of the Anti-Waste party to save money?

    HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "HOOD" SISTER SHIPS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how much money is being claimed by the contractors as compensation for the dropping of the contracts for the three sisters of His Majesty's Ship "Hood"; whether a decision has been reached as to how much the contractors are to be paid; and what has been done with the partially-completed hulls, the boilers, engines, and armour-plate of these three ships?
    Mr. AMERY: I regret that I am unable to give details of the amounts claimed as compensation for the cancellation of these contracts. No decision has yet been reached as to what amounts, if any, the contractors are to be paid. As stated in my reply to the hon. Member on the 8th June, the claims are being investigated,
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    and the Admiralty decision depends on the result of the investigation. With regard to the last part of the question, the material, worked and unworked, for the hulls has all been sold. The main engines and boilers were only in a partially completed state, generally as castings, forgings, and plates. Material suitable for existing ships or store purposes has been retained and the remainder has been sold. No orders for armour for these ships had been placed before the decision to discontinue their construction was reached.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: How is it that the hon. Gentleman is not in a position to state the amount of money claimed by the contractors? How is it that the figures are not known at the Admiralty?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not in a position to give accurate details. There are several points with regard to details which have not yet been settled.

    ADMIRALTY, REORGANISATION.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether a deputy-secretary of the Admiralty has been appointed or is to be appointed; what duties he will undertake, and who is at present carrying out these duties; what salary and bonus does this post carry; whether the assistant secretary now becomes first principal assistant secretary; whether the acting staff assistant secretary becomes principal assistant secretary; whether a new post of director of establishments has been created and what salary does it carry, including War bonus; whether the officials previously known as principal clerks now become assistant secretaries, the assistant principal clerks become principals, and the clerks become assistant principals; what increase of salaries, bonuses, and extra expenditure these changes in, and additions to, the civil staff entail; and what is the reason for these changes and additions?
    Mr. AMERY: A deputy-secretary has been appointed, and the other changes referred to have been made, as part of the scheme of reorganisation adopted for all first-class Departments, with a view to more efficient financial control and particularly to carry out the Government's decision that the Permanent

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    Secretary and his staff are to be charged with enlarged duties and responsibilities in regard to such control. The duties of the deputy secretary are to assist the Secretary in his new financial functions and to relieve him of much of his administrative work. The salary of the deputy secretary is £2,200 and that of the director of establishments £1,200, rising to £1,500, and the present rates of bonus are £500 and £750 respectively. The increased cost involved by the various changes referred to is £2,300 in respect of salaries and £435 in respect of bonus.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a fact that these changes have only just been made, and how can the cost of the Admiralty staff of clerks be cut down when the higher officials are given a rise in status and salary?
    Mr. AMERY: As I explained, the whole object of reorganisation is to secure more efficient control.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is this the result of the circular sent out by the Cabinet on the subject of economy?
    Mr. AMERY: It is the result of the investigation carried out in the Department.
    Viscountess ASTOR: It is economy.

    SOUTH AMERICAN SQUADRON.
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Committee of Imperial Defence was consulted prior to the withdrawal of the squadron from the south-east coast of America; and how it is proposed that the duties previously carried out by this squadron shall be discharged?
    Mr. AMERY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, the Admiralty will endeavour, whenever necessity arise, to arrange for a ship or ships from one of the other stations to visit South American waters.
    Viscount CURZON: Do I understand that the Committee of Imperial Defence was not consulted at all before this change was made in the disposition of ships? Is it not the practice of the Admiralty to consult that Committee before such changes are made?
    Mr. AMERY: No; I do not think the Committee of Imperial Defence is consulted upon disposition, but it is consulted on great fundamental questions.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is not the important question whether the War Staff concurred in this change? I presume they did?

    PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD.
    Viscount CURZONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what are the maximum dimensions of the largest ships than can be constructed at Portsmouth Dockyard at the present time?
    Mr. AMERY: H.M.S. "Queen Elizabeth" represents the largest type of vessel which could be constructed at present on a slip at Portsmouth.

    PRE-WAR DISABILITY PENSIONS.
    Viscountess ASTORasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to say what conclusions have been reached with regard to increases in the pre-War disability pensions of men who served again in the War?
    Mr. AMERY: It has been decided that the claims of pre-War disability pensioners who served during the War and were demobilised are to dealt with under the post-War scales of pension. It is anticipated that the scales will shortly be promulgated, the final details being now in course of settlement.

    CAPITAL SHIPS (EXPENDITURE).
    Mr. C. WHITEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what is the total expenditure proposed for this year on the building of capital ships?
    Mr. AMERY: The total expenditure proposed is £2,000,000.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    UNEMPLOYMENT CONTRIBUTIONS (REFUND).
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Minister of Labour whether an ex-service man totally disabled is entitled to any refund of contributions paid by him into the funds governing unemployment under the National Insurance Acts?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): An ex-service man totally disabled is not entitled, on the ground only that he is totally disabled, to any refund of unemployment contributions correctly paid under the National Insurance Acts. The only provision for a refund to an insured contributor of contributions correctly paid is contained in Section 25 of the Act of 1920, under which a contributor may obtain a refund upon reaching the age of 60, provided that certain conditions are satisfied. A person who is in receipt of a pension of £26 or upwards is, however, entitled, under Section 3 of the Act, to exemption from liability to be insured. This would relieve him, but not his employer, from payment of contributions.

    TREATMENT ALLOWANCE.
    Mr. T. WILSONasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, when an ex-service man who is or has been in receipt of treatment allowance is certified by the medical referee as fit for employment, his treatment allowance ceases immediately; that if he has no employment to go to he cannot make application for unemployment benefit for at least seven days after the receipt of the last treatment allowance; and that this means that these men are sometimes without any income for two or even three weeks; and whether he can, by Regulation or otherwise, make arrangements whereby unemployment benefit could be paid them seven days after the stoppage of treatment allowance?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have prepared a rather long reply in answer to this question. With the hon. Gentleman's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the reply:
    A claimant for unemployment benefit must, amongst other things, be capable of and available for work. Accordingly, an ex-service man, who has been in receipt of full treatment allowance on the ground that he was incapable of work would not be in a position to claim benefit during the period covered by the treatment allowance. Treatment allowances are paid in advance up to Tuesdays; unemployment benefit, which is necessarily due only after proof of unemployment has been given, is paid on Fridays, in respect of weeks ending
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    Wednesdays. Accordingly, there is a period of 16 days between the last day on which treatment allowance is actually paid and the first day on which benefit is received. The first seven of these days will be covered by the last payment of treatment allowance paid in advance. I may further point out, that this class of man is almost invariably entitled to a pension, and that payment of pension in advance, which is, of course suspended during full treatment allowance, is, or ought to be, resumed immediately on cessation of treatment allowance.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    BENEFIT (DISALLOWANCE).
    Mr. YOUNGasked the Minister of Labour whether a set of rules is issued to Employment Exchange officials for their guidance in determining the amount of benefit due to unemployed persons; if so, whether a dissatisfied applicant is, on request, entitled to see the rule which is said to affect him; and what is the effect of Clause 3 of Rule 40, on which a woman worker was recently informed her benefit had expired?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I am unable to identify the particular rule to which my hon. Friend refers, but I may say that the normal procedure provides that a claimant for benefit shall be formally notified of the ground for disallowance of a claim to benefit. In the particular case referred to by my hon. Friend, it appears that the ground for disallowance was that contributions had been exhausted by the benefit paid, but I should be glad to make further enquiry if he would furnish me with the necessary particulars.
    Mr. YOUNGasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mrs. E. Gibbs, 17, Hope Street, Earlstown, Lancashire, the wife of an ex-soldier, who has been unemployed for eight months, is entitled to benefit under the Unemployment Acts and is registered for work, but is refused benefit on the ground that she is a married woman; and whether this decision is in accordance with instructions issued by his Department?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The claimant named in the question has drawn the maximum amount of benefit to which she

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    is entitled in respect of contributions, namely, 48 days since the date of her claim in January of this year. On the exhaustion of this benefit, she claimed under the Act of 1921, which provides for the payment of free benefit in the first instance for 16 weeks. An examination of the case shows that this claimant, who is a married woman resident with her husband, is unable to satisfy the conditions which have been laid down as necessary to be satisfied by applicants under this Act, and payment of benefit has, accordingly, been suspended.

    EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, SOUTHWARK.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Labour whether, considering the number of women who have to sign on at the Borough High Street Employment Exchange, it can be arranged for the office to be open in the morning as well as the afternoon as is arranged for in other exchanges?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the terms of my reply, of which I am sending him a copy, to a question by the hon. Member for Plaistow on the 13th May, in which I explained the various steps which had been taken to avoid congestion at employment exchanges during the abnormal conditions of the present time. The women's department of the Borough Exchange is open all day during the usual hours, but a timing system is in operation under which claimants are required to attend to give proof of unemployment at stated hours in order to avoid queues, and to reduce the period of waiting.

    DOCK WORKERS.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to a case which occurred recently in which dock men refused to coal a ship on the ground that this would have disqualified them from receiving the unemployment dole at the end of the week in which the job was required to be done; and whether it is possible to prevent such an abuse as this of the unemployment grants?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I know of no authority for this allegation of abuse beyond a newspaper paragraph which does not state where the case occurred. The particulars as given in this paragraph and quoted in the question are
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    obviously inaccurate in some respects. If, however, my hon. and gallant Friend will give me precise particulars of the case, I shall be glad to make inquiry.

    UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Labour what was the amount of the unemployment allowances paid out during the five months ended 31st May, 1921; what part of such sum was met out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund and what amount was charged to the national Exchequer; what was the amount standing to the credit of the account on the 31st December last; what is the balance now remaining in the unemployment fund?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: For the period of five months ended 31st May, 1921, the amount of unemployment benefit paid under the Unemployment Insurance Acts was approximately £22,000,000; the whole of this was paid out of the Unemployment Fund, the contribution to which out of the Exchequer in respect of the period referred to was about £1,500,000. For the same period the amount of out-of-work donation paid, which has now fallen to £7,000 a week, was about £3,940,000; the whole of this amount was paid out of the Exchequer. The balance of the Unemployment Fund was about £23,750,000 on 31st December last and is now approximately £7,250,000.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in some, if not all, districts a considerable number of employers are not taking adequate steps to see that their workers are insured under the Unemployment Act of last year, thus involving loss of revenue to the insurance fund; and what means he is taking to secure the payment of contributions on account of every employé in all insured trades?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I am not aware that any considerable number of employers are evading their responsibilities under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920. I will, of course, take steps to ensure compliance with the Acts in any case brought to my notice.
    Mr. THOMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many are insured or would be insured?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The total number of insured persons is roughly about 12,000,000.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Minister of Labour by what proportion the contributions of the workmen and the employer would require to be increased in order to maintain unemployment insurance benefits at their existing rate?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: In order to maintain the Unemployment Insurance Benefit at the existing rates and to secure that the Unemployment Fund should be solvent again at July, 1923, the total contributions to be paid weekly by employers and workmen until that date should be 1s. 7d. for men (employer 10d., workman 9d.) with proportionate rates for women and juveniles, and a State contribution of one-fourth of the contributions of employers and workmen together, namely, 4¾d. This assumes no extension of the 16 weeks' benefit allowed in the special periods for which provision is made in the Act of 1921.
    Mr. M. SCOTT: Have you worked out the proportionate increase?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: That will be shown in the Bill, the Second Reading of which is to be taken this afternoon. If we did what my hon. Friend suggests it would be 1s. 7d.
    Sir T. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Labour what, for the last financial year, was the total cost of the administration of Unemployment Insurance; and what was the total amount paid in unemployment benefit?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The total amount paid in unemployment benefit in the last financial year was £10,466,000. I may remind my hon. Friend that in addition to this amount out-of-work donation was paid during the last financial year to the extent of £11,658,000, making a total of £22,124,000. The cost of administration of Unemployment Insurance for that period cannot yet be stated, as the accounts and apportionments have not been completed.

    TRADE BOARD (AERATED WATERS).
    Lieut.-Colonel HURSTasked the Minister of Labour why the warehousing operations performed by firms whose work consists solely in importing mineral waters prepared abroad have been excluded from the scope of the Aerated Waters Trade Board; whether he realizes
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    the disadvantages thereby sustained by British mineral water firms; whether any representations have been made to him on this point by this trade board; and what action he will take in this matter?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The operations to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers have never been included within the scope of the Aerated Waters Trade Board, since the scope of that Board is confined to the manufacture of aerated waters and certain operations incidental to such manufacture. Representations have been made by the Trade Board to the effect that the scope of the Board should be amended so as to cover, not only manufacturers, but also importers. The amendment of the scope of the Trade Board is at present under consideration, and I shall certainly give careful attention to the Trade Board's suggestions.

    WAGES (REGULATION).
    Captain TERRELLasked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the industries or professions, apart from the Civil Service, in which the present rates of pay are governed solely by reference to the actual cost of living as compared with pre-war rates, and in which no reference is paid to the existing acute depression?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: An account of the principal agreements providing for the automatic regulation of wages in accordance with variations in the cost of living was given on pages 662–4 of the "Labour Gazette" for December last, a copy of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend. Since that date somewhat similar arrangements have been adopted for the future regulation of wages in the following additional industries or sections of industries: Building, vehicle building, farriery, wholesale tailoring, hosiery manufacture, civil engineering (construction), brass founding and finishing (Midlands), edge tool manufacture, cast-iron hollow-ware manufacture, carting (Scotland), mill-sawing. (Scotland), baking (Scotland), packing - case making (London).
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Does that apply to those members of the public who have bought annuities from the Post Office?
    Dr. MACNAMARA:I cannot follow the hon. Member. Perhaps he will put a question on the Paper.

  HOUSING.

    WOMEN INSPECTORS.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether he has decided to dispense with the services of the qualified women inspectors appointed on the staffs of the Housing Commissioners in 1919 to investigate and report on the insanitary dwellings which abound in urban and rural centres; and, if so, whether he will reconsider his decision, in view of the importance of ascertaining the extent to which slums and bad housing conditions prevail in the various urban and rural districts throughout the country?
    Sir A. MOND: The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. The primary responsibility as regards unfit houses and slum areas rests with the local authorities, and I think that the Central Department should interfere only where necessary. In view of the urgent need for economy, it has been decided that questions relating to these matters shall be dealt with at headquarters.
    Mr. THOMSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it is a real economy to dispense with the services of these inspectors while the same conditions are allowed to remain?
    Sir A. MOND: I do not think that arises out of the question on the Paper. The hon. Member only asked me if a certain staff was necessary.

    SMALL DWELLINGS (ACQUISITION) ACT.
    Mr. LORDENasked the Minister of Health if he is prepared to encourage the acquisition of houses by persons desiring to occupy, and at the same time to lessen the cost of housing to the State, by further amending the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act, 1899, so as to enable local authorities to make advances up to 90 per cent. of the value, to increase the advances up to £1,000, to limit the rate of interest to 4 per cent., to increase the period of repayment to 50 years, and for the Government to reimburse local autho-
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    rities for any loss incurred, in the same manner as is now done under the Housing, etc., Acts?
    Sir A. MOND: I do not think the suggestions proposed would be likely to increase materially the number of new houses, while they would increase the liability of the Exchequer. In view of the need for restricting expenditure at the present time, I am not prepared to introduce legislation as proposed.

    SCHEMES (STATE ASSISTANCE).
    Major PRESCOTTasked the Minister of Health whether he has sanctioned the carrying out of any housing schemes beyond the time limit of 31st July, 1922, with a view to qualifying for State assistance under the provisions of the Housing Act of 1919; and, if so, will he consider the expediency of withholdng further sanctions, having regard to the gravity of the financial situation in developing housing schemes on a prime cost basis?
    Sir A. MOND: I have given local authorities an assurance that I shall be prepared to extend the period within which houses may qualify for financial assistance in cases where definite obligations have been entered into with the approval of the Ministry of Health which, by reason of circumstances out side the control of the local authority, cannot be carried out within the prescribed period. But I must point out that the great majority of housing contracts are not on a prime cost basis, and I am not prepared to extend the use of that method.

    COST, METROPOLITAN POLICE AREA.
    Major PRESCOTTasked the Minister of Health whether he will give the average cost of the B 4 type of house on the P. C. form of contract within the metropolitan police area; whether he is aware that some of these houses of the artisan class have cost over £1,700 each; and if he will state what action is being taken to bring to an end a form of contract which is so prejudicial to the public interest?
    Sir A. MOND: None of the housing contracts on the cost and fixed profit basis which have been let by local authorities within the metropolitan police area have yet been completed, and no definite information is consequently available as to the cost of those proportionately few

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    houses of the parlour and four-bedroom type which have been included in such contracts. There is no reason to believe that the cost of such houses will be so high as £1,700 each, but I am having the costs carefully scrutinised. I do not propose that this form of contract should be allowed in the future.
    Major PRESCOTT: Has the right hon. Gentleman no official information with regard to the cost of these houses, which are stated to have cost £1,776 each?
    Sir A. MOND: No, I have no official information.
    Sir F. HALL: Will there be any great difficulty in ascertaining through this Department what these houses have actually cost? Is there any truth in the assumption that they have cost over £1,700 each?
    Sir A. MOND: I am now having the costs scrutinised, and it is not possible for me to say at the moment what the costs are.
    Major PRESCOTT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it is that the costs of these houses are available for the general body of citizens, but are not available to his Ministry?
    Sir A. MOND: The general body of citizens may be satisfied with figures with which my Department would not be satisfied.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Does the Ministry know the cost of any of the houses that are building?
    Sir A. MOND: Certainly.

    REVISED REQUIREMENTS.
    Major PRESCOTTasked the Minister of Health to what extent he has authorised the cutting down of the State housing scheme since he took office; whether he will give his reasons for taking such action; and if he will give the total liability to be borne by the State and local authorities for the acquisition of land, the construction of roads and sewers, architects' and quantity surveyors' fees, and contractors' compensation in connection with abandoned schemes?
    Sir A. MOND: In view of the altered economic and financial circumstances of
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    the country, I have felt compelled to take steps to limit the provision of new houses to the minimum requirements, and I am reviewing the general housing demand in this light. I cannot at present estimate the liability which may be incurred in connection with abandoned schemes.
    Mr. MILLS: What authority does the right hon. Gentleman consult in order to find out whether the need actually exists?
    Sir A. MOND: I consult the local authorities, but mostly I have to consult the national financial position.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are several places in this country where houses have been built and where no tenants can be found to occupy them; and will he take great care that that does not occur in any schemes in future?
    Mr. MILLS: Is that not due to the fact that the cost per week runs to about 50 per cent. of the wages of the people who are asked to occupy them?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a question; it is an argument.

    LABOUR AND HEALTH BUILDINGS.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Minister of Health how many labour and health buildings were provided under the head of expenditure of £206,000 in 1913–14, and how many such buildings are covered by the estimated expenditure in the current financial year of £1,442,000?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. GILMOUR (for the First Commissioner of Works): The number of buildings provided for in 1913–14 was approximately 500, compared with 1,170 in the current financial year. For a true comparison I would refer the hon. Member to the printed estimates for the two years in question, from which he will see that there is a provision this year of £512,000 in respect of services, arising out of the War; £178,000 for the extension of an existing building at Kew; and £120,000 for additional accommodation for Labour Exchanges.

    VACCINATION OFFICER, BRAMLEY.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health whether his attention

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    has been directed to the case of Mr. Arthur Gaunt, vaccination officer of the Bramley Union, and the definite attempt of the Bramley Guardians to deprive an official of 20 years' service of his living by taking away the bonus entirely, leaving this officer the sum of £25 9s. 7d. per quarter as his only source of income to maintain a wife and two children; and whether, under the circumstances, this is a case in which he will exercise his right of determining the amount of remuneration to be paid by the Bramley Guardians?
    Sir A. MOND: I understand that the facts are as stated in the first part of the question except that as the officer in question is only a part-time officer, I am not able to say whether he has any other source of income. After full consideration of the circumstances of this case, I do not see my way to interfere with the decision of the guardians in a matter affecting the salaries of their officers.

    OUTDOOR RELIEF.
    Mr. RENDALLasked the Minister of Health how many Boards of Guardians have notified the Ministry during the period 1st January, 1921, to 31st May, 1921, of a departure from the Order prohibiting the granting of out-relief to able-bodied persons; how many cases have been so notified; in how many cases has the Ministry refused to ratify the departure; and is unemployment accepted as a sufficient ground for granting out-relief to able-bodied persons?
    Brigadier-General COLVINasked the Minister of Health how many cases of granting out-door relief to able-bodied persons by the West Ham Board of Guardians have been reported to the Ministry during the three months prior to 31st May, 1921; in how many cases have the Ministry expressed their disapproval; what steps are taken to ensure that each case has been thoroughly investigated by the guardians; and if the fact of unemployment is accepted by the Ministry as a sufficient reason for departure from the out-door relief prohibitory Order?
    Sir A. MOND: During the period 1st January to 31st May, 204 Boards of Guardians have reported 224,828 departures from the Relief Regulation Order, 1911, and during the period 1st March to
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    31st May the West Ham Board of Guardians have reported 57,832 departures from the Order. It is, however, impossible to say how many individual cases are represented as the same case would frequently be reported several times. In view of the exceptional conditions of industry during this period it would not have been practicable to refuse to allow such departures, but the Guardians have been instructed to exercise proper discrimination, and my officers have kept in touch with the work of the Relief Committees.
    Mr. RENDALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a more definite answer to the question as to whether the fact of unemployment is accepted by the Ministry, as a sufficient ground for granting this relief to able-bodied persons, generally speaking?
    Sir A. MOND: It is not for the Ministry to decide; it is a matter for the Poor Law Guardians.

    RIVER LEE.
    Major MALONEasked the Minister of Health whether he will have inquiry made by his Department into the polluted and offensive state of the River Lee; whether he is aware that complaints have frequently been made to the local authorities by the inhabitants and persons using the river, and that, as late as last week, the medical officer of health for Tottenham reported to his committee that objectionable matter consisting of decomposing organic material and oily substance enters the River Lee below the Tottenham lock, causing that reach of water to be highly polluted and offensive; and will he exercise such pressure on the Lee Conservancy Board as to compel that authority to purify the river in the interest of the health of the inhabitants and the users of the river?
    Sir A. MOND: The Lee Conservancy Board are by virtue of Section 9 of the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876, the authority for enforcing the provisions of that Act and of the Lee Conservancy Act, 1868, with regard to the River Lee, and I have no power to compel the Board to take action in the matter. I have no information as to the complaints referred to in the second part of the question.
    Major MALONE: In the interests of the health of the district, and in view of the complaints which have been made, has not the right hon. Gentleman power to step in and compel the Board to carry out this work?
    Sir A. MOND: No, Sir. I have not.

  GOVERNMENT STAFFS.

    BONUS.
    Captain R. TERRELLasked the Minister of Labour whether there is any other class of workers in the country who are now in receipt of over 90 per cent., increase on their pre-war wages; and whether he can state the three classes of workers which in proportion to their present wages come next to the Civil Service in respect of the bonus paid them, giving in each case the actual percentage?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have prepared an answer, and, with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The information in the possession of the Ministry of Labour with regard to increases in wages since July, 1914, relates almost wholly to organised groups of manual wage-earners. In nearly all cases the increases in full-time rates of wages granted to such workpeople represent considerably more than 90 per cent. on pre-War rates, the general range of increases being from about 100 to about 200 per cent. Owing to the effects of unemployment and short time, the increase in actual earnings is less, but the information available is insufficient to enable the percentage increase on earnings to be calculated.
    The methods by which the increases in rates of wages have been applied vary considerably in different industries, and the details at the disposal of the Department are not sufficiently complete to enable a definite statement to be made as to the three industries in which the increases granted most nearly correspond with the Civil Service bonus. I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend, however, a copy of the "Labour Gazette" for February last, on pages 62–65 of which an account is given of the increases in rates
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    of wages from July, 1914, to the end of 1920, and also a copy of the current issue, on page 256 of which the changes reported during the first four months of this year are summarised.

    WAR DEPARTMENTS (WINDING-UP).
    Mr. ACLANDasked the Lord Privy Seal what decision was arrived at by the Government in reference to the resolution passed in another place on the 7th July last, calling for the appointment of commissioners to wind up war departments and reduce other inflated establishments to a normal level?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hilton Young): For the reasons indicated in the course of the Debate referred to by the right hon. Member, the resolution in question is not one which the Government were able to adopt. I may, however, refer to the statement in this House on the 9th December last by my right hon. Friend, now the Lord Privy Seal, on the subject of the winding-up of certain temporary Departments and to the subsequent action relating to the subject, and also to the recent circular concerning reduction of expenditure. With reference to the general question of the reduction of Government staffs, I do not think that I can usefully add to the answer given yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Lieut.-Colonel Nail).

    TIMBER SUPPLIES DEPARTMENT.
    Brigadier-General COCKERILLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Timber Supplies Department still exists; and, if so, what is the staff engaged, the monthly cost, and the duties performed?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The administrative and accounts staff, numbering at present 298 and costing £4,831 per month, are engaged in the disposal of stocks, plant and machinery, settling claims, and, generally, in the final liquidation of the commitments of the Government in regard to timber. The number of workmen at present employed in various localities is 830. The numbers employed in this branch are progressively diminishing as liquidation proceeds. The

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    total personnel to-day is 1,128. In February last it was 1,980, and in February, 1919, over 29,000.

    REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT.
    Mr. A. HERBERTasked the Minister of Health approximately what is the increased cost thrown on the rates by the requirements of the Representation of the People Act?
    Sir J. BAIRD: My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The increase for 1920–1921 in England and Wales, as compared with 1913–1914, was approximately £250,000. In future, as a result of certain changes introduced last year, it should not much exceed £100,000. It will be borne in mind that half the cost of registration is now borne by the Exchequer. On the other hand, the work of registration under the new Act is vastly greater than it was, and the cost of everything much heavier.
    Sir F. HALL: Does the Government not think that this sum of £250,000, which is eventually to become £100,000, might be considerably reduced, if an Amending Act were passed to do away with the necessity for continually conducting this registration?

    OVERSEAS TRADE (DIPLOMATIC AGREEMENTS).
    Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Prime Minister whether, at the Imperial Conference which will shortly meet, there will be present any special representative of the Department of Overseas Trade to advise on the effect of any diplomatic agreements, such as the Anglo-Japanese Alliance, on British trade in China and elsewhere?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is always open to the President of the Conference to invite the attendance of the representative of any Department when matters in which it is concerned are under discussion.

    NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
    Mr. GALBRAITHasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the
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    Government to adopt the recommendation of the Ninth Report of the National Expenditure Committee, 1918, that the Treasury should cease to be a spending Department?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member will be good enough to refer to the answer given on the 26th February, 1920, to the hon. Member for Oxford, he will see that I then stated that I was "in general agreement with this recommendation, which, indeed, represents substantially the present position."

    ANGLO-JAPANESE TREATY.
    Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the large amount of unemployment in this country, he will take steps to prevent anything that will prejudice our trade relations with China being embodied in our treaty with Japan?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In coming to a decision on the question of the Anglo-Japanese Agreement, all relevant considerations will be borne in mind.

    PUBLIC BILLS (CHARGES).
    Mr. ACLANDasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the recommendations of the Committee on Procedure governing Bills which involve charges; and whether he will recommend to the House the moving of Financial Resolutions in Committee in all cases in which charges on the rates are involved?
    58. The right hon. Gentleman also asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government have considered the recommendation of the Select Committee on the procedure governing Bills which involves charges; and whether they have decided that such Bills shall be accompanied by a statement showing the probable cost to the ratepayer, and that Clauses in them affecting ratepayers shall be distinguished in some manner?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have had this matter under consideration, but I find that almost every recommendation requires either the passage of new Standing Orders or legislation, and I fear that time cannot be found for their consideration at present.
    Mr. ACLAND: Has the Government come to any decision on the merits, apart from the question of procedure?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I have been looking into the matter myself personally, with a view to bringing it before the Cabinet, and I find I am at once, brought up against the difficulty that with a single exception—as far as I have been able to make out—every recommendation requires either a new Standing Order or legislation.
    Captain W. BENN: Is a new Standing Order required to enable the Government to lay before the House, a paper showing the cost of these proposals as they affect the ratepayers?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman look at the question? I am referring to the proposals of the Committee.
    Captain BENN: Has the right hon. Gentleman read Question No. 58, to which he has just replied, asking that a statement should be laid before the House showing the probable cost to the ratepayer involved? What is the answer to that?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think that does require a Standing Order.

    INDUSTRIAL COUNCIL.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the necessity, in the interests of the national welfare, of securing the cooperation of employers and employed in the avoidance of industrial strife and unrest, the Government will issue invitations to the representatives of the trade and industry of the country to meet once more in an industrial council; and whether they will give a pledge that they will submit in good faith the recommendations of the council to the sanction of Parliament should they require such sanction?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the Noble Lord to my reply to a question on this subject on Monday last by my Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil).
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that an industrial council would have a moderating influence upon the extreme
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    elements, both employers and employed, and that a common policy for tiding over the difficult time ahead of us might be evolved?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Will my Noble Friend be good enough to read the answer?
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: I have done so. It is not an answer.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Will the hon. Member read the answer once again, and he will see the reasons why the conference was not summoned. I have no reason to think we should be more successful in securing a conference of a representative character now than we were then.
    Lord R. CECIL: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think a conference, even if it failed to represent the three trades in question, would still be valuable in considering the present very difficult industrial position?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I doubt whether a conference would be of great value if the unions which declined to take part still abstained.
    Lord R. CECIL: Has the right hon. Gentleman sent invitations to the three unions which declined to take part, or has he made any attempt to ascertain whether they would now do so?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No. I have no reason to suppose they would change their mind.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Will the right hon. Gentleman have a little confidence in the goodwill of those concerned?

    TREASURY JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES.
    Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government have considered the advisability of discontinuing the War-time practice of appointing two Patronage Secretaries to the Treasury; and what additional Departmental work justifies such continuance?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer my hon. Friend to what I said in Debate on the 13th instant on this subject, to which I have nothing to add.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Would it not be possible to make one of these posts an unpaid post?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is possible to make any post an unpaid post, but whether it is desirable is another matter.
    Captain W. BENN: Is it not a fact that the salaries paid in respect of these offices are for work that is not for the public but for a party?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is work for the public. Why the hon. and gallant Gentleman should take this line now for the first time, having carefully voted the salaries of his own friends before, I do not know.
    Captain BENN again rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: This matter was debated the day before yesterday.

    CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
    Viscountess ASTORasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has Deceived copies of two Resolutions passed at a meeting held in the House of Commons in support of the Bishop of London's Criminal Law Amendment Bill, at which practically every organisation interested was represented, promising to abstain from introducing controversial Amendments; and whether, under these circumstances, he will undertake to give facilities for the passage of the Bill this Session?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I cannot, however, at present add anything to the answer which I gave my hon. Friend on the 12th April last.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Since that answer we have had a meeting, and as this is not a controversial question, could not the right hon. Gentleman really see his way to make time for it, as it will cost the country nothing? It is one of those Bills which the Government could get through. It would do a great deal of good, and I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to find time for it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I quite understand the importance attached to this Measure by a very large section of public
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    opinion, and I am anxious that it should be considered by the House this Session, but I cannot make a pledge to find time for it at this stage, though I hope it may be possible to do so later.
    Major C. LOWTHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Bill would be by no means uncontroversial, and that it is likely to lead to considerable controversy?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Only by a certain section.

    ESTIMATES.
    Major BARNESasked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government intend to adopt the recommendation of the Ninth Report of the National Expenditure Committee, 1918, that Members should vote freely upon Motions for the reduction of Estimates made in pursuance of the recommendations of the Estimates Committee?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. The general adoption of such a rule would seem quite inconsistent with the theory and practice of Ministerial responsibility.

  IRELAND.

    MILITARY OPERATIONS.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what is the total number of houses burnt down or wrecked, and what is the number in which furniture has been destroyed by official orders since 1st January last; how many of these houses were occupied solely by women; and how many were outside the martial law area?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry): I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief that the number of houses destroyed by official orders in the martial law area is 191, of which number 22 belonged to women. The number of cases in which property or furniture only was destroyed is 19. In two of these cases the property was owned by women. As regards the last part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that these official punishments are confined to the martial law area.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Does that excuse them? Is there any good in destroying old women's furniture?

    CROWN FORCES (MURDER CHARGES).
    Mr. LUNNasked the Chief Secretary whether the two members of the Crown forces arrested in connection with the murder of Mr. J. Whelan, of Bally-rowan, the one in connection with the murder of Mr. Lawless, or Maryborough, the two in connection with the murder of Mr. Prendergast, of Carrysville Island, and the two others stated on 28th April to be in custody on charges of murder, have yet been tried, and with what result; and with what crimes these two last are alleged to have been concerned?
    Mr. HENRY: It is expected that the two members of the Crown forces arrested in connection with the murder of J. Whelan and the two others stated on 28th April to be in custody on a charge of murder will be tried within the next few days. The two latter are charged with the murder of Patrick Howard. The trial for the homicide of Thomas Lawless has resulted in the acquittal of the accused on the murder charge. The result as regards the manslaughter charge will be announced in due course. The evidence as to the two members of the Crown forces in custody in connection with the murder of Mr. Prendergast is at present under consideration.

    SHOOTING, CORK (THOMAS O'KEEFFE).
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Chief Secretary whether a man named Thomas O'Keeffe was shot dead in Cork on the night of the 9th instant; whether an inquiry has yet been held into his death; and with what result?
    Mr. HENRY: This refers to the martial law area, and I have asked the Commander-in-Chief for a Report. I shall be glad if the Noble Lord will postpone his question to a later date.

    MOTOR VEHICLES' DUTIES.
    Sir MAURICE DOCKRELLasked the Minister of Transport what sums have been collected in Ireland as duties on motor vehicles for the five months ended 31st May, 1921; and how much of the sums so collected has been allocated to Irish local authorities for repair and upkeep of public roads?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. A. Neal): The total sums collected to 31st May, 1921, in Northern Ireland, i. e., the County Councils of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone, and the County Borough Councils of Belfast and Londonderry, amount to £16,103 1s. 2d. Particulars are not available of amounts collected in the rest of Ireland, where the duties are collected by post offices. No sums have yet been received from the General Post Office in respect of these collections. None of the monies so far collected have yet been allocated to Irish local authorities, but the net proceeds of the duties collected in Ireland are being set aside with a view to their subsequent transfer to the Governments of North and South Ireland respectively.
    Sir M. DOCKRELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of the roads in Ireland, owing to the heavy military and other traffic, are in a very bad way, and is he further aware that the Local Government Board of Ireland can distribute this money for repairing the roads? I would also like to know if it is intended to hang up this fund until there is a Parliament for the whole of Ireland; if so, that will mean that it will be relegated to the Greek kalends?
    Mr. NEAL: No, Sir; it is not intended to hang it up until the Greek kalends. I am aware that some of the roads in Ireland are in want of repair, but the money already collected would not do much to repair them.
    Sir M. DOCKRELL: Even that little would do something.

    WATER SUPPLY, BELFAST.
    Mr. LINDSAY(by Private Notice) asked the Chief Secretary if he has any further information as to the extent of the damage done to the Belfast water supply; if any of the persons responsible for the outrage have been arrested; and if any steps are being taken to preserve the health of the community concerned.
    No reply was made.

    WEST AFRICA (COINAGE).
    Mr. STEWARTasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what the alloyed

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    coinage now issued in Nigeria is composed of, and the fineness and intrinsic value of one shilling of this new money; whether this alloyed coinage is full legal tender to an unlimited amount; and if he will explain why the West African subjects of His Majesty get such inferior money to his Asiatic subjects in Crown Colonies east of Suez?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill): No, Sir. I do not consider it desirable to make public the composition of the alloy coins issued in West Africa. No question arises as to the fineness of an alloy coin, and its intrinsic value is small. The alloy coinage is legal tender in the West African Colonies to any amount, and as its function is to replace paper notes of small denominations I consider its introduction an advantage. The value of the coins in relation to sterling in this country is maintained by the action of the West African Currency Board, who pay off at par in London coins deposited with them in West Africa.
    Mr. STEWART: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last part of my question.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, I have.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    BOSTALL HEATH CAMP.
    Mr. MILLSasked the Secretary of State for War if he will give orders to the authority responsible to put the Clover Field, Bostall Heath (Woolwich Command) in a state comparable with its pre-War aspect by removing déebris of military encampment, and restoring it for public use?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): Arrangements are nearing completion for the removal of the large quantities of concrete, ashes, and other materials, on Bostall Heath and the ground will be handed back to the London County Council as soon as the clearance is completed.

    TROOPS ABROAD (COST).
    Lord ROBERT CECILasked what is the monthly cost of the Army of Occupation on the Rhine?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I would refer my Noble Friend to the answer given on 12th May last, to a question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith, a copy of which I am sending him.
    Lord R. CECILasked what is the monthly cost of the British troops in Silesia?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: About £77,000 a month, but this sum is covered by the cost of the Rhine force referred to in my previous answer.
    Lord R. CECIL: Is there any additional cost in consequence of the recent action of the Government?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I do not think there is.
    Captain W. BENN: If there is no additional cost of taking these troops away, what is the need for keeping them on the Rhine?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ridiculous!"]
    Mr. HOGGEasked what is the approximate present monthly cost of maintaining our forces in Palestine?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: The average monthly cost of our forces in Palestine in the current financial year is estimated at £380,000.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: What would be the cost of maintaining these troops in England?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: I cannot carry the figures in my head.
    Mr. KENYONasked whether there are any British troops at present in Persia, and what is the monthly cost of their maintenance?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: There are no British troops in Persia beyond a few individual officers lent as instructors to the Persian Army, and paid for by the Persian Government. The second part of the question does not arise.

    ALLOTMENTS, BEDFORDSHIRE.
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHSasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the case of applicants for allotments at Northill, Bedfordshire, where the clerk to the parish council has decided not to call a meeting of his council to consider the

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    matter until July, therefore putting oft steps being taken to acquire the necessary land by Michaelmas next; whether a previous application in 1920 for 50 acres for allotments in the same parish has been proceeded with; and whether he will have inquiries made into this matter?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): My attention had not been previously drawn to this case, but I will have inquiries made, and communicate the result to the hon. Member.

    AGRICULTURE ACT, 1920.
    Lieut.-Colonel ARTHUR MURRAYasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has within the last week met in conference representatives of the Scottish and English Farmers' Unions and explained to them the attitude of the Government in connection with the proposed repeal of Part I. of the Agriculture Act, 1920; and, if so, whether he will make to the House a statement similar to that made to the mentioned representatives of the agricultural industry?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The statement to the representatives of the agricultural industry was on the same lines as the announcement I made in the House on the 8th instant, and it does not seem necessary to make any further statement to the House prior to the Second Reading of the Bill which will shortly be introduced.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Has anything passed between the right hon. Gentleman and these representatives of the agricultural industry that the House does not know?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: There have been conversations and communications of a confidential character, which are always proceeding in Government Departments, but I have nothing further to announce to the House.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Are Members of Parliament not to be allowed to know what takes place in these conversations? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, so far as the railways are concerned, all the consultations and negotiations have
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    taken place through Members of Parliament?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Surely the hon. and gallant Member does not expect that every confidential conversation with the officials of an office or other persons interested is to be reported verbatim immediately to the House? That would be utterly impossible.
    Major M. WOOD: What was the object in bringing these farmers and other representatives of agriculture up to London if they were not to be told anything more than was told to this House?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I have told the House that all I stated to the agricultural representatives was on precisely the same lines as that which I told the House.
    Major WOOD: Why bring them to London to tell them that?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the farmers did the talking!

    OFFICE OF WORKS.
    Mr. HANNONasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the expenditure on the Office of Works and public buildings has increased from £143,000 in 1913–14 to £582,000 in the current financial year; and to what causes this increase is due?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: With the hon. Member's permission, I will have the reply, which is of considerable length, circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the reply:
    The actual expenditure in 1913–14 on the Office of Works and public buildings was £142,834, and the estimated net expenditure for the current financial year is £582,000. The increase is due in general to the necessity of making proper provision for the efficient performance of the very heavily augmented work of the Department. Any comparison with the pre-War provision must also take into account the bonus payable to all civil servants and the higher salaries it is now necessary to pay to officers employed on a temporary basis and inclusive terms. The chief items in the addi-

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    tional work now devolving upon the Department are:—

    (a) The provision of office accommodation for new Ministries (such as the Ministries of Pensions, Labour, Transport and Air) and for other Ministries with extended functions.

    (b) The equipment and maintenace of training institutions for disabled and other ex-service men for the Ministries of Labour and Pensions.

    (c) The provision of sanatoria for tuberculous ex-service men.

    (d) The management of housing estates with over 8,000 houses recently transferred from the Ministry of Munitions and of the Well Hall Estate, Woolwich, with 1,300 houses.

    The whole of the work of the Department is now again under review, but I am unable at the moment to say what, if any, economies in staff can be effected.

    GOVERNMENT HOSPITALITY FUND.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, what is the reason for the large increase in recent years in the Government Hospitality Fund; and whether he will take steps to effect a drastic economy in this Vote?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Expenditure on this service increased during the War, and has been subsequently maintained at a high figure owing to the large number of Conferences and missions which have assembled in this country. Thus, the recent conference during April, at which six Powers were represented, and the forthcoming Imperial Conference, involve a considerable outlay. Close attention is being paid to reduction of expenditure, and it is expected that substantial economies will be effected.

    CAIRO (BUILDINGS).
    Mr. C. WHITEasked the hon. Member for the Pollok Division of Glasgow, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any new buildings are to be erected at Cairo; and what is the approximate cost?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: There is no proposal at present to erect new buildings at Cairo.

  INDIA.

    ARMY, STRENGTH.
    Colonel Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for India what is to be the total strength of the 21 cavalry regiments and 132 infantry battalions to which the Indian Army is to be reduced; and what percentage will that strength bear to the total population of India?
    Mr. PARKER (Lord of the Treasury, for Mr. Montagu): The total strength of the 21 cavalry regiments and 132 infantry and pioneer battalions amounts to 117,670 Indian ranks, being a percentage of 0457 of the population of British India. It may, however, be pertinent to remark that the Army in India does not consist of cavalry and infantry alone, and that the total of the Indian fighting personnel provided for in the Government of India's Estimates of Military Expenditure for the year 1921–22 is 145,376, besides 44,003 reservists.
    Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for India the names of the officers who formed the committee to decide the constitution of the 21 cavalry regiments and 132 infantry battalions to which it is proposed that the Indian Army should be reduced to?
    Mr. PARKER: My right hon. Friend regrets that he is not able to give the names of the officers comprising the committee on the cavalry and infantry, respectively, without inquiry from India.

    CIVIL SERVICE.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the discontent existing in the Indian Civil Service by reason of the-fact that improvements in pay and pension granted to the home Civil Service have not been applied to the Civil Service in India; whether he has recently received a telegram on behalf of the Indian Civil Service emphasising certain grievances; and what reply has been sent to the same?
    Mr. PARKER: My right hon. Friend has received a number of memorials on the subjects mentioned, as well as the

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    particular telegram referred to. The representations contained in the latter are, he understands, being formally submitted to him through the Government of India. He has, however, taken note of them in reaching decisions which he has recently communicated to the Government of India, who, as a result of those decisions, may be expected to issue a comprehensive Resolution almost immediately dealing with the pay of the Imperial Indian Services, including the Indian Civil Service. Consideration of other matters, in particular, pensions, is still proceeding.

    OFFICIALS (PASSAGES).
    Sir C. YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state the result of his communication with the Government of India with regard to the cheapening of the cost of passages of 'Government officials to and from India?
    Mr. PARKER: The Government of India are consulting Provincial Governments, and expect to be able to reply shortly as to whether they will take action to assist passage of Government officials.

    PITWOOD (PORTUGAL).
    Sir W. SEAGERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the recent action of the Portuguese Government not only makes it difficult to obtain a licence to export timber, but has imposed an export duty of £1 per ton on all pitwood exported from Portugal to this country; and whether immediate action will be taken, in view of the fact that this new duty will have the effect of greatly increasing the prime cost of colliery stores, and consequently the cost of coal?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: A recent Portuguese decree has increased the export duty on pit props, but an export licence is no longer required. In view of the small proportion of our imports of pit props which is derived from Portugal (viz., only 1 per cent. of our total imports of pit props) I am disposed to think that any hon. Friend exaggerates the probable effect of the decree. I doubt in any case whether representations to the Portuguese Government in regard to the increased export duty would serve any useful purpose.
    Sir W. SEAGER: Will the hon. Gentleman bring all possible pressure to bear upon our Ally Portugal to remove these restrictions? We have a large number of sailors unemployed in Cardiff, and there are ships to carry the pit props if we can only get them?
    Sir R. THOMAS: Is it not the fact that Portugal is treated by this country under the Most Favoured Nation Clause, and is it not there every reason why we should make strong representations to the Portuguese Government?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Representations must always depend upon the injury done to trade by a particular action. At the present time and all through 1920 the importation of pit props from Portugal has been practically negligible, being only 1 per cent. of the total importation of pit props. I do not think that is a very strong case on which to make representations.
    Sir W. SEAGER: Is my hon. Friend aware that in pre-War days we imported into Cardiff from Portugal something like 350,000 tons?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I do not doubt that the amount was larger then than now—it was certainly a large amount. I do not think that it is a large proportion now of our total importation.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not desirable to protect British industry?
    Mr. ACLAND: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if Cardiff people will pay a decent price they can get very good pit props on the other side of the Channel, in North Somerset?
    Major WOOD: Is not this the first of the reprisals for the Anti-Dumping Bill?

    DISTURBANCES, JAFFA.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Seretary of State for the Colonies whether the Mr. Cormack responsible for the sentences on Lieutenant Jabotinsky and others, and whose presidency of the Court of Inquiry into the Jaffa pogrom has been denied, has, in fact, been sent to preside over the local commission of investigation in Jaffa?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have already, on 2nd June, given the House details of the

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    constitution of the Court of Inquiry which is investigating the Jaffa disturbances. I do not understand my hon. and gallant Friend's reference to a local commission.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is there a local Court of Inquiry sitting into the Jaffa riots as well as an official Court of Inquiry?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have no knowledge of it. If my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with the information which has led him to put his question I will examine the matter further, but neither I nor my Department are apprised of this matter.

    WEST AFRICA (NATIVES).
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any information from British official sources in West Africa, which confirms the allegations that large numbers of natives are being conscripted in certain mandated areas for military purposes outside those areas?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have received no such information.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to inquire, or will he allow me to provide him with some information upon the subject?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I shall certainly be very glad if my Noble Friend will give me any information. At the same time, my responsibilities are limited to the very large number of Colonies, Possessions, Dominions, and mandated territories which are under the Colonial Office. If there are mandated territories in possession of foreign Governments, I think it is probable that the information should be sent to my learned Friend the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Any further questions I shall be glad to deal with.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs has referred me to the Secretary for the Colonies?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the Noble Lord that that is not the question on the Paper.

    EX-ENEMY DEBTS (GERMANY).
    Sir R. NEWMANasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade on what ground, under the Treaty, the German clearing house for enemy debts is disputing claims for British-owned money in the custody of German banks transferred during the War by those banks to the German custodian of enemy property; whether he is aware that the German authorities have, until recently, admitted similar claims under Article 296 of the Treaty; whether he will decline to permit the German authorities to delay any longer payment of claims or to recognise the validity of the German objections and the German plea that the claims are governed by Article 297 and not by Article 296; and whether he will refuse, on the ground that the objections and plea are frivolous, to allow further delay by acquiescing in the demand for a test case to be submitted to the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal for adjudication?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The British Clearing Office is advised that debts which have been collected by the British or German custodians under war emergency legislation have lost their character of debts and become proceeds of liquidation, and as such are claimable under Article 297 of the Treaty. This interpretation has not at present been accepted by the German Clearing Office, which, in order to protect itself, has declined to admit such claims either as debts or as proceeds of liquidation. The Controller of the British Clearing Office has been unable to effect a settlement of the matter with the German authorities, and proposes to bring a test case before the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal to obtain a decision upon the point at issue.

    PENSIONS (ILL-HEALTH CLAIMS).
    Sir R. CLOUGHasked the Minister of Pensions whether claims are admitted on the part of soldiers who did not, on demobilisation, make complaint of ill-health, either because they did not themselves then recognise the gravity of the symptoms or because there were actually

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    at the time no specific symptoms of the disease, whose origin arose from the War but which only developed subsequently?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): The answer is in the affirmative.

    POST OFFICE (TELEPHONE SERVICE).
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Postmaster-General whether, in finally settling the amounts due for trunk calls and postal telegrams charged to telephone subscribers on the monthly statement of account, he has credited them the £1 deposit which was demanded when the telephone first was installed to cover any loss through non-payment of any of these charges?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Pike Pease): Any deposit held by the Post Office in respect of trunk calls and telegrams will be credited to the subscriber in the first account which he receives under the new system of quarterly accounting for all charges. Where a subscriber gives up the service, an account is made for the charges due from him, and if a deposit is held in excess of this amount the balance is refunded to him.

    OVERSEAS TRADE (EXPORT CREDITS).
    Mr. RAPERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what is the total cost to date of the staff of the Export Credits Department, and the amount of the credits arranged for?
    Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The cost of the staff of the Export Credits Department from the beginning of its operations in 1919 up to date is £7,871. This cost is covered by commissions paid on the transactions entered into, and does not form a charge on public funds. The amount of advances sanctioned up to date is £2,455,263. Of this amount, £880,670 has actually been advanced. The remainder will be advanced as the relevant transactions are completed. Advances amounting to £20,000 have been repaid.

    COST OF LIVING.
    Mr. S. ROBINSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement in the Press, based on actual prices, that the increase in the cost of living since 1914 is only 54 per cent., whilst the "Board of Trade Gazette" gives the increase as 128 per cent.; and whether, in view of the important bearing of the figures on economic questions, he will have an inquiry made as to the reason for the disparity?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have been asked to reply. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a reply which I gave on 8th June to a question on the same subject by the hon. Member for St. Rollox.

    ENGINEERING INDUSTRY DISPUTE.
    Mr. JOHN DAVISON(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the breakdown of negotiations between the Engineering Employers' Federation and the trade unions concerned, which will involve the lock-out of 1,500,000 workmen on the 16th the Government propose to intervene and bring the parties together before a Court of Arbitration on the same lines as those adopted during the War?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The House will be aware, from statements which are appearing in the Press, that the negotiations between the employers and the trade unions in the engineering trade, which were resumed on Monday last, came to a termination yesterday without a settlement having been reached. I saw the parties last night, and I have seen them again this morning. As a result, joint meetings were resumed an hour or two ago, and when I left my office the negotiations were still in progress. In these circumstances, the House will, I am sure, agree that it will be better for me to make no statement at the present moment.
    At the commencement of Public Business—
    Dr. MACNAMARA: May I ask the indulgence of the House to make an addition to the answer which I gave to a question to-day?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a question for the House itself to decide, Question Time

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    having passed. The Minister of Labour has an important announcement that he would like to make to the House. Is it the pleasure of the House to hear it? [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed."]
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have just heard, a moment or two ago, that the employers have agreed that the notices shall be postponed until the end of June. The trade unions will ballot their members on a proposal of the employers, and, in the meantime, they have instructed their members to continue at work.

DECLARATION OF RIGHTS.
Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: I beg to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to declare the right of Parliament alone to decide the matter, manner, measure, and time in respect of which a tax shall be levied."
This is a very important subject and would merit a better occasion, but, unfortunately, private Members have to take advantage of those opportunities which the Standing Orders permit. This Bill relates to the struggle to maintain the control over taxation which this House has waged for 700 years, and it refers to a series of Declarations made by this House over that period, Declarations growing in force and precision. Obviously, there is not time to attempt, were I qualified to do it, a survey of the whole subject, but I will quote four Declarations of this House bearing on the matter. There was the famous Bill of Edward I., which declared that this House or Parliament alone could impose taxation. There was the Resolution of our House in the year 1671, declaring that Parliament alone had the right to fix the rate of a tax. There was the Declaration in 1689 that no one had any right to decide how a tax should be levied in any manner save the manner decided by the House. There was also the Resolution of 1860 relating to the Paper Duties, from which the terms of my Motion are selected, which declared that this House alone had the right to decide the matter, manner, measure and time in respect of which a tax should be imposed.
The importance of retaining in this House this right needs no support from any argument I could bring forward.
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This House is, of course, elected by the taxpayers of the country. If any Members act wrongly, harshly or corruptly the taxpayers have the right to dismiss them at the next General Election. It is obvious, therefore, that this House alone can provide proper safeguards for taxpayers and subjects. It may be said that this is an issue which has long since been decided, and that no further definition of it is needed. It is perfectly true that the power of another place was limited by a recent Act of Parliament. It is perfectly true that the influence of the Monarchy has long ceased to be exercised personally in these matters. The legatee of the Monarchy to-day is the Cabinet, but the Cabinet is supported by a bureaucracy which is actually more swollen and more powerful than we have ever known in this country. A direct attack has already been made on the liberties to which I have referred in a Bill presently before Parliament, under which it is sought to give power to a Department to impose taxation by Departmental Order. At a time when this House was not sitting such an Order would be absolute, effective, and irrevocable by this House.
Let me give an instance of the powers it might confer in an ordinary Recess after this House had been dispersed for the holidays. The Board of Trade might impose a duty, for example, on imported timber, which would yield a needy Exchequer a very substantial amount of money, and when the House re-assembled it would be without the power to relieve those upon whom the duty had been imposed. Moreover, the precedent, if we permit it to be established, may be used in years to come by another Government having other ideas of taxation and of imposing it in a very different manner, and one which would be least relished by hon. Members of this House. It would be possible, if the precedent were established, for the Government to bestow, for example, on the Treasury power to levy a capital duty on wealth and on particular individuals who might be deemed to fall within the category described in the official Bill. It may be said that Parliament is the Sovereign Assembly and can confer what powers it likes on what Department it chooses. That is perfectly true. It cannot be denied. But I do suggest if such a prerogative is passed by this House we shall undo

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the work of 250 years and confer powers not very different in essence from the prerogative under which the Sovereigns claimed the right to impose tonnage poundage and shipping money. The substance of the Bill is very brief and I may give it in a few words, namely:—
"That among the true, antient and indubitable rights of the people of this kingdom is the right not to have any money or tax levied for or to the use of the Crown save by the express decision of the Commons House of Parliament specifically defining the matter, manner, measure and time in which such money or tax should be levied and paid."
I shall be interested to know what position the Government intend to take up in reference to this Bill. Of course, they are at liberty under the Standing Order under which I am bringing it forward, to oppose the Bill and to divide the House upon it, but I hope that they will not do so. I hope that they may assent to this Motion and thereby assent to the abandonment of the plan for endowing any Department with the power to decide the matter, manner, measure and time in respect of which a tax shall be levied, arid thus show that they are determined to maintain inviolate the ancient and indubitable rights of Parliament.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have some doubts as to whether I ought to allow this Bill to be brought in. It would appear, according to the Title of the Bill, that the other House may be given some rights in regard to deciding the matter, manner, measure and time of levying a tax. As a matter of fact, that is a thing upon which this House has always been very jealous, but I have not seen the Bill. I, therefore, only put in a demurrer as to the title of the Bill.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: I rise to oppose this Bill, for the reason that it is one which proposes to paint the lily and to gild refined gold. It proposes to enact something which is the law already. There is no power, no body, no authority which has a right to impose taxation in this country save Parliament in due constitutional form. My hon. and gallant Friend (Captain W. Benn) has quoted Resolutions passed by this House during a period extending over 700 years in order to support his case. That is his trouble, and the trouble of those who are acting with him on that side of the House.
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They are living 700 years ago. Their idea of present day politics is to fight over and over again the constitutional battles of the last 1,000 years and to pay no attention whatever to the real problems that have to be faced. They want to fight over and over again battles which have already been won and that is what they call Liberalism. They are the Rip van Winkles of politics. I think you, Mr. Speaker, might have had some ground for refusing to allow this Bill to be introduced, because it is really intended as an Amendment to another Bill which is now before the House instead of the Amendment being brought forward on that Bill. It is an endeavour by anticipation to bring it forward now. If there is anything in that other Bill which proposes that Parliament shall part with the right to impose taxation that is a question which ought to be raised on that Bill. No person, no authority at present has any right to impose taxation except Parliament. The Bill simply proposes to enact something which is already law.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Captain Wedgwood Benn, Sir Donald Maclean, Lord Robert Cecil, and Sir Frederick Banbury.

DECLARATION OF RIGHTS BILL,
"to declare the right of Parliament alone to decide the matter, manner, measure, and time in respect of which a tax shall be levied," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 142.]

GUARDIANSHIP, ETC., OF INFANTS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 144.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 144.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 140.]

HOUSING (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 145.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 145.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 139.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Sutton District Waterworks Bill, with an Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the Ciy of Manchester to construct additional gasworks, and to acquire the Stretford Gas Company's undertaking; to make further provision in regard to the health, local government, and improvement of the city; and for other purposes." [Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Bill [Lords.]
Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Criminal Law Amendment Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; to be read a Second To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 141.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  4.0 P.M.
  In asking leave a week ago to introduce this Bill, I did my best to set forth why it was necessary and what it proposed to do. I endeavoured to show how plans laid with every care and circumspection earlier in the year had broken down because of the continuously deepening trade depression, accentuated by the, dispute in the coal industry. I explained the changes that I had felt compelled to propose: the reduced benefits, the increased contributions, and the further provision for unemployed persons rendered necessary this summer and possibly next spring. I explained that, even under this recast scheme, I should probably owe the Treasury at some time between now and July, 1922, as much as £16,000,000 and should therefore be compelled to increase the limit of borrowing power, £10,000,000, given me in the Act of last March, a power, be it remembered, of which I have not so far availed myself.
  The criticism may be made that the estimate of unemployment throughout the emergency period from March, 1921, to June, 1922, inclusive, was a bad estimate, and that in any event the Fund would have become insolvent. The assumption upon which the Act of March last was based was that throughout the whole succeeding emergency period of 16 months there would be a weekly average of 1,000,000 workers unemployed and that the Fund would be called upon to pay out in benefit a weekly average sum of £800,000. This average of 1,000,000 unemployed workers a week represents an average of nearly 10 per cent. unemployment—to be precise, 9½ per cent. When I remind the House that over a recorded industrial history of 50 years before the War 10 per cent. was the highest recorded level of trade union unemployment, I think the House will agree with me that in assuming this rate of unemployment week by week through-
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  out a period of 16 months we were making a not unreasonable assumption. I have no wish to overdo the effect of the coal dispute, but I am bound to say that I think I could have got through if it had not arisen.
  Of course, the reduction of benefit and the increase of contributions are sharply opposed. That is natural enough. But what am I to do? My hon. and right hon. Friends opposite say, "Oh, carry on as at present and borrow." Well, I am, as I say, adopting that very costly expedient up to £16,000,000 with power to go to £20,000,000. That will cost the Fund over £1,000,000 in interest for which there is no return, I cannot forget that every penny I borrow increases the cost of living and widens the gap between the real and the nominal value of wages—a gap which happily has been steadily narrowing since last November. The official index figure of the cost of living stood last November at 176 per cent. above pre-War. It was 128 for the 1st May and will manifestly be lower when the figure for the 1st June is available in a day or two. I do wish my hon. and right hon. Friends opposite, when they talk of pledging the credit of the State, would face the inevitable effects of that policy upon the commodity value of working-class wages. Of course I do not like to have to reduce benefits, but you cannot fill a pail from an empty well. There is just this much to be remembered. Under the Act of 1919 the benefit for men and women was 11s., 11s. for fifteen weeks. While that operated the index figure got as high as 164 per cent. above pre-War. Under the Act of 1920 the benefit was 15s. for men and 12s. for women for fifteen weeks. While that operated the index figure was as follows: November, 1920, 176 per cent.; December, 169 per cent.; January, 1921, 165 per cent.; February, 151 per cent. Now let it be observed that when the 15s. and the 12s. again operate next month probably the index figure will be round about 120. Further, it will not be 15s. and 12s. for fifteen weeks in a year. It will be 15s. and 12s.—under the extensions now proposed—for possibly round about twice as many weeks in a good many cases during the Insurance Year, July, 1921, to July, 1922.
  Before I leave this question of reduced benefits and increased contributions, there are one or two facts I want faced.

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  On the basis of an average of 1,250,000 of people unemployed over the whole year, July, 1921, to July, 1922—the basis I have taken—if I kept benefits, contributions, and waiting period as they are, and added the two benefit extension periods of six weeks each, for which I have been bound to make provision, I should run into debt, not to the tune of £16,000,000, but £41,750,000, which, even with normal unemployment, I could not, under this scheme, even begin to repay. That really cannot be faced. I should observe that even at the 15s. and 12s. Benefit rate, with the increased contributions and the six days' waiting period, the two extension periods for which I have made provision will cost me £9,000,000. My hon. and right hon. Friends opposite take sharp objection to the re-institution of the six days' waiting period.
  Mr. SEXTON: They can never qualify under it.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: It was six days in the Act of 1911.
  Mr. SEXTON: We were not in the Act of 1911.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: It was six days in the Act of 1919. The three days were instituted as from 8th November, 1920, and will run to the end of this month. Why do we re-establish the six days? For this, amongst other reasons, that we secure a very material saving in Unemployment Benefit—£2,200,000 for the year 1921–1922—and a saving effected, moreover, at the beginning of a workman's period of unemployment, when the hardship consequently presses less heavily upon him. Further, the six days' waiting period instead of three will help to deal a little more evenly as regards Insurance Fund Benefit between persons working short time and persons wholly unemployed. I should be the last man to wish to discourage short time. Its very great development during the present depression has enormously eased the situation. Still, there are people drawing both short-time wages and Unemployment Benefit who, as things are, might well forgo the latter in the interests of their comrades down and out altogether.
  I have been discussing, so far, the point of view of those who think that we should have gone ahead with the existing scheme and chanced the future. I frankly confess
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  that, inasmuch as it is manifestly based on sympathy with, and solicitude for, poor people in distress, that argument must stand out with all of us as the first to be answered. We approach it as my right hon. Friend the Member for Miles Platting (Mr. Clynes) last week begged that we should, every man in the House looking upon himself as a Labour Member, and we can give no answer other than that which I have given. There is another point of view expressed in some quarters outside, if not here. There are people who say, "This dole policy is demoralising; it induces a disinclination to seek work." On that I have two or three things to say. The first is this: It is not so much the so-called dole that demoralises: it is unemployment itself. After long periods of unemployment, men lose heart; they get their tails down; they have not the spirit that they once had to rush around worrying for work. Who can wonder? Even if that were not so, do let me ask those who say that men are not anxious to find work, "Where is that work to-day?"
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Domestic service for women.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I will deal with the case in detail. I am getting on as fast as I can. I am not now dealing with women, but with men, and I say: Where is that work, so far as the great majority of the men are concerned? While we insist that these moneys shall be wisely and carefully administered, shall not be dissipated, shall be scrupulously conserved for the poor people who are compelled to seek assistance through no fault of their own, do let us bring a touch of human understanding and sympathy to the whole problem. Broadly speaking, there are very few vacancies for men, and it really does not help very much, that being the case, to say that some men are not overanxious to find work. As regards women, there is, in one quarter, at any rate, a considerable number of vacancies, and I will deal with that later. When I framed the Act of the 3rd March last unemployment was very widespread indeed. I had, therefore, to make provision for very large numbers of people under conditions which should make the receipt of benefit a good deal easier of accomplishment than under the old and well-established insurance principles.

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  For these people at that time, unemployment being what it was, it was out of the question to lay down the usual qualification of a fixed number of weeks' contribution. Frankly, I had, in a word, to introduce into an Insurance Act, for a good many of the persons then covered by that Act, the policy of what is colloquially known as the dole. I did this through an emergency Clause—Clause 3—which provided, under conditions the reverse of onerous, two periods of sixteen weeks' benefit, the one to run from March to October, 1921, and the other from November, 1921, to July, 1922. The situation left me no alternative. In doing that, I turned to the local employment committees—bodies to whose patience and tireless public service I desire to pay tribute—and asked them to assist me, in these exceptional circumstances, by examining the claims of those who would seek benefit under Clause 3. All this was additional to the well established checks and supervision by Exchange officers, the Chief Insurance Officer, the Courts of Referees and the Umpire, which have always formed an essential feature of the normal administration of unemployment insurance benefit under the Acts with which we are familiar. Directly the Act of 3rd March was passed, I wrote to the Chairman of every Local Employment Committee a letter, in the course of which I said:
  "The view has been expressed that in some cases young men and women, not altogether dependent upon themselves for maintenance, do in fact seek to avail themselves of benefit without making any very serious effort to seek work, and have, indeed, refused offers of employment for reasons which ought to involve forfeiture of benefit. In any case a serious responsibility rests upon us. The benefit provided for the emergency period has only been made possible by drawing heavily upon the accumulated balance of the insurance fund. If unemployment continues grave for a lengthened period, the provision made for it is bound to deplete the fund most seriously. While, therefore, the assistance rendered by the Act must be immediately available in every proper case, it is only just to all concerned, and especially to those who have helped by their contributions to build up the fund, that every care should be taken to see that no reproach lies against those of us charged to administer it that, by our laxity, by our failure to apply the reasonable tests it prescribes, the contributions of hardworking people, of the employers, and of the State, are unnecessarily and improperly dissipated."
  After two months' experience of the working of the Act of last March, par-
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  ticularly in relation to Section 3, the emergency Section, which I will shortly describe, I wrote again to the chairman of each local employment committee a letter, in the course of which I said:
  "The Act has now been in operation for a period of two months, during which unemployment, grave as it was at the outset, has week by week reached higher figures, amounting by the end of April to a total of over 2,500,000. The depression in trade, combined with the coal stoppage, is a sufficient explanation of such figures of unemployment. There have, however, been allegations that some of the persons in receipt of benefit are not properly entitled to it. As I explained in my letter of 8th March, the responsibility of securing that the grant of benefit is not abused is a serious one, and no means of checking abuse should be neglected. The experience of the Local Employment Committees in working the Act during the last two months places them in a good position for judging whether there has, in fact, been such abuse, and for suggesting appropriate remedies for any abuse beyond those contained in the instructions issued by the Department. I should be glad, therefore, if you would be good enough to make a report to me on these two points at as early a date as may be convenient."
  I have received, and have now before me, a very valuable series of communications, which of themselves testify to the public service which these Local Employment Committees have devoted to this problem, especially during the present grave period of industrial depression. Further, as an evidence of the care taken to see that the funds urgently needed for people unemployed through no fault of their own should not be dissipated through improper use, I may say that, during the period from 3rd March to 3rd June, under the normal machinery of the Act, and before I come to the emergency Section, some 111,100 doubtful claims were referred to the Chief Insurance Officer, who disallowed over 78,000. In about 17,000 of these disallowed cases appeal was made to Courts of Referees, who allowed benefit in 6,700 cases. Again, from the 3rd March to the 20th May, out of over 1,000,000 cases dealt with under Section 3, the emergency Section of the 1921 Act, over 31,000 were initially rejected by the employment exchanges. Over 600,000 cases were referred to and dealt with by the Local Employment Committees, who disallowed over 50,000, and allowed benefit for less than the full period in 178,000 cases and for the full period in 338,000 cases.

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  Now let me go back to the point I have already made, that you are really not in a position to charge a man with disinclination to seek work unless the work is there. On that let me point out—and it is of the utmost importance—that it is an essential condition for the receipt of benefit that the person claiming it should be unable to obtain suitable work. If there are no vacancies, I cannot apply that test. On this I very earnestly appeal to employers of labour. Directly things begin to take up, as we may profoundly hope they will, employers will have vacancies—I am dealing with men—at their disposal. Do let them notify the employment exchanges of those vacancies. The more they do that, the better position shall I be in to secure that the provisions of the Act are in fact being strictly observed.
  I said, as regards women, that there are vacancies—vacancies for domestic service. My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle) raised that point at an earlier period of the discussion. Let me explain to the House what we have endeavoured to do here. I authorised the managers of the local employment exchanges to prepare lists of the women upon their registers as unemployed who might fairly be invited, when coming to claim benefit, to consider the vacancies in domestic service. I may add that, from the beginning of February to the beginning of May, the exchanges placed in domestic service of one kind or another over 52,000 women. I must not deal in too great detail to-day with the matter, but there are one or two proposals in the Bill to which I did not refer in my ten minutes' speech—
  Mr. CLYNES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question? Turning to the question of the reasons for which men are disqualified from receipt of benefit, has he any data to show the different reasons why they are disqualified, or is it merely that there is no alternative service?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: They can all be set forth. My right hon. Friend can have a copy of the Umpire's decisions. There are records of the work, and they are circulated to the local employment committees and exchanges for their guidance. I was saying that there are some proposals in the Bill to which I did not refer in my ten minutes' speech last Wednesday, and to which I will refer now. Perhaps
  460
  I may direct attention to Clause 6, the effect of which is to prevent contributors who have paid less than twenty contributions since July, 1920, from obtaining benefit unless they satisfy the conditions that they are normally in insurable employment and genuinely seeking whole-time employment, but unable to obtain it. The object of this Clause is to prevent benefit being claimed in respect of earlier contributions by persons—as, for instance, married women and war munition workers—who have no intention or necessity of resuming employment, and who are in fact not now really available for industrial employment. I want to make it perfectly clear that we think that in such cases they should not be entitled to benefit.
  Clause 8 of the Bill deals with the position of men who may be called up from the Reserve or specially enlisted to meet a national emergency. The intention of the Clause is that, unless their period of service during the emergency is more than four months, their case shall be met by paying contributions to the fund on their behalf as if they were in civil employment. Without this Amendment they would have to be credited with 90 contributions, entitling them to 15 weeks' benefit under Section 41 of the Act of 1920. This latter provision had in mind ex-Regular soldiers, sailors or airmen discharged after serving for a term of years, and is manifestly inappropriate to the short period of emergency service. The Amendment here proposed applies to men who may be called up or enlisted in the future, and does not affect the statutory rights of men already called up or enlisted.
  There is one other Clause which I might be allowed shortly to describe, namely, Clause 10, to enable associations which have made arrangements to pay out State benefit under Section 17 of the 1920 Act in conjunction with their own private benefits, to continue such arrangements without making alterations in their Rules as to the period for which their members are entitled to benefit while unemployed. The present Bill, like the Act of March last, extends the periods during which State benefit may be drawn, but, also like the Act of March, it is an emergency Measure in this respect. It is extremely difficult—as no one knows better than my hon. Friends opposite—for associations to

  461
  alter their Rules governing the payment of their own benefits, especially at short notice. It appears reasonable, therefore, that the standard of the 1920 Act should, as before, remain operative. When I asked the House to agree to the Act of last March, I asked that provision should be made for arrangements with associations to continue on this basis till the 3rd November, 1921. The present Amendment prolongs the period till the 3rd July, 1922.
  Let me conclude with a rough forecast balance sheet for the insurance year July, 1921—July, 1922, based on the assumption that throughout that period there will be an average of 1,250,000 insured persons unemployed. On the income side, I should hope to get in the year contributions from:—

  Millions.

  Workpeople

  13¾

  Employers

  15⅘

  The State

  7⅓

  That is a total income of just under 37 millions.
  On the expenditure side I get:—

  Millions.

  Benefits to be paid

  46⅓

  Interest on debt

  ¾

  Grants for administrative expenses

  3½

  That is a total expenditure of about 50¾ millions.
  Mr. A. HOPKINSON: May I ask how that anticipated amount has been calculated?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: On the basis of 1,250,000 insured persons for a whole year.
  Mr. HOPKINSON: How did you get the 1,250,000? It is a pure guess.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: It is more than a guess. It was such information that we had before us in the recorded industrial history of the country. We are making the best calculation we can. On that basis that would leave us at the end of the year still owing about £13,750,000. The maximum debt would be £16,000,000, but we should have begun, by improving employment, towards the end of the period to pay some of it off. Therefore the figure of £13,750,000 is not the figure of the maximum debt I should owe during the year. The balance sheet will show that
  462
  on the basis I have taken that at the end of the year we shall owe £13,750,000. In moving the Second Reading I am conscious of the fact that my task is not precisely an agreeable one, but there it is. I need not assure the House that I have worried away examining every possible expedient that might be tried to meet the present situation. This is the outcome, and, believe me, it is the only practical outcome. All I can hope is that the clouds may soon break and that blue sky will prevail again. The sooner that takes place the sooner I shall be in the position to clear off the liabilities now resting upon my shoulders—liabilities, the direct consequence of unemployment graver than anything hitherto experienced in the modern history of our country at any rate—and the sooner I shall be able again to put this scheme of unemployment insurance on the permanent and satisfactory basis, upon which we would all wish to see it.
  Mr. HODGE: I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
  My colleagues will, with myself, agree that the Minister of Labour has anything but an agreeable task. The thought that struck me as he sat down, after stating about the money that he would get from the Treasury for this unemployed fund, is why is it that the Government could not give a subsidy for the purpose of unemployment equal to the subsidy they have given to the railway companies? It seems to me that the present Government is a rich man's Government, and I hope before I have finished to give several illustrations of that fact. While the right hon. Gentleman was speaking an hon. Member below the Gangway seemed to be perturbed on the question of domestic service. I should like to know how he would appreciate being a servant. I do not think any of us would like it, and it is one of the things that we have a right to grumble at that the Labour Ministry have been pressing upon women who have never been used to domestic service the necessity of taking it up under the threat of losing their unemployed benefit. I will give the right hon. Gentleman one case. In the tin plate trade young girls when they leave school go in there as helpers at the opening of plates. They are too young to have had

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  any experience of household duties. Quite recently women who have spent in many cases 10 and 15 years of their lives in the tin plate works have been under duress of having their unemployed benefit stopped unless they take up domestic service, which they are entirely unfitted for. The right hon. Gentleman also dealt with the question of leakage of unemployed benefit. I am afraid his Department have not trusted the trade unions sufficiently in the administration of the benefit or they have had less difficulty on that aspect of the question. I can speak feelingly on this subject, because the union I represent were anxious to administer the State benefit so far as their own members were concerned, but through the difference of methods used directly in the Labour Exchanges as compared with the trade unions, we were compelled to give it up entirely because of the trouble it was creating amongst our own members. We were paying the men our own unemployed benefit and we could have paid them the State benefit at the same time. When a man did not get the State benefit from us he went to the Labour Exchange and got it at once. I think the right hon. Gentleman must appreciate the confusion that that created and the great dissatisfaction as well.
  In the present amending Bill you are cutting out the creation of trade schemes. In the great iron and steel industry the employers are coming to realise that it would be much better to have their own schemes so that they could provide for all occasions of bad trade, believing that it is in their interest that a substantial unemployed benefit should be given so that the men would be kept in a physically fit condition when the wheels came round again and they could restart work. So far so the right hon. Gentleman's figures are concerned—the index figure—his argument was all based on the assumption that the original 20s. was sufficient to keep body and soul together. We demur to that, especially when you realise that as a consequence of the Rent Restriction Act, which was not a rent restriction but a giving to the landlords of an opportunity of raising rents, the great bulk of the 15s. that is proposed under this Amending Bill will go towards rent. On Monday last a question was asked as to
  464
  the cost of keeping the Russian refugees in Cyprus. I worked out the cost to the British Government of each refugee at £4 4s. 11d. per month per person. This Bill is going to give to the Britisher, who in common with the employer contributes to the fund, £3. Surely it would be much wiser and very much better that the £4 4s. 11d. should be given to the British citizen rather than to the Russian refugee. But the Russian refugees seem to be a never ending quantity. I do not know how many years we have been keeping them, nor how many more years we are going to keep them. Charity begins at home, and it is time we were looking to the people of this country a little more than is evidently the case. In answer to a question this afternoon it was stated that for the purpose of making a loan for the Jews in Palestine we are spending at the rate of £380,000 a month. Surely such an amount would be more fittingly spent at home in trying to maintain that A1 class of people that there was so much talk of during the War. The British workman is to be satisfied with 15s. a week. He may have a wife and 1, 2, 3 or more children to be kept out of it.
  How differently are our prisoners in gaol treated. A person in prison costs us £1 10s. per week—a prisoner in a settlement, £2 2s. a week, a lunatic in an asylum, £1 19s. 1d. a week, a workhouse inmate, £1 1s. 7d. a week, but a British workman, unemployed through no fault of his own, 15s. a week, and that only for a limited period. The right hon. Gentleman ought to trust to the future. In my opinion once we have got settled down we are not going to have anything like an unemployed list of 1,250,000. Be that as it may, to quote all those who beslavered the workers in the period of the War in saving England, the Government ought to come to the rescue and save the men who saved England. There is a Coalition newspaper, called the "Daily Chronicle." It used to be rather independent in character, but now I suppose it is in the pocket of the Government. Five thousand demonstrate at Sheffield, traffic held up for two hours, the men insisting that the dole they are getting from the board of guardians should not be reduced as the Ministry of Health has commanded, and the Lord Mayor promises to appeal to the Ministry of Health and to insist on no reduction of relief payment. The Ministry of Health

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  has hitherto refused assistance unless on a reduced scale. Is it not amazing that with the mass of unemployment to-day, on your own records over 1,500,000, there have not been more episodes of this character. Does it not say something for the stolid stupidity of the British race? You say they saved England. Saved what? The land of the landlords, the Duke of Northumberland included. Saved it by their fighting ability and by their devotion. They saved all the material wealth of this country, and the only thing that you can do to-day is to reduce their unemployment benefit that they have paid for. The State, with all its wealth behind it, could easily find sufficient money to keep the unemployment payment going. In the same newspaper I read another paragraph headed: "Hymns that inspired the Premier." I regret the necessity that compelled the Premier to go to his native Criccieth for the purpose of recuperation. It is said that he had been indulging in hymn singing. He made a speech in which he said that he was inspired to carry on during the war period to success as a result of singing those glorious Welsh hymns with their magnificent tunes. Is it too much to ask that he who was the idealist of National Health Insurance, as well as the Unemployment Insurance Fund, should sing more hymns, and become so inspired as to come down to this House and keep the unemployment benefit going at its present figure? Anyone who is in a position of responsibility in the trade union movement has had his heart stirred, just as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour has been, in coming in contact with the misery and the destitution that has followed as a result of the great depression in trade.
  I believe that this is a rich man's Government. Excess Profits Duty went because of the threat that they would pay no further donations to the Coalition party war chest. [AN HON. MEMBER: "You ought to be ashamed to say it!"] It has been commonly reported in the Press of this country that that was so, and I believe there is never any fire without smoke, and the smoke that has appeared is an evidence of the fact that threats of that character have been used. Last year a Debate took place in this House on the question of unemployment. Sitting listening to the various speakers from all quarters of the House, it
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  appeared to me that there was a new spirit developing amongst hon. Members. Many opinions which were expressed were quite as strong and as advanced as the opinions which I hold. I believe that every industry ought to bear the burden of its own unemployment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Then why not give effect to it? This is the place where effect can be given to it; but the Government are the slaves of the rich men in this House, and they dare not propose anything of the kind. When trade gets bad the workman is dismissed. He is of no further use. No care is taken to keep him physically fit. If the same firm owns horses, it does not matter whether they are for shunting operations in their works or for taking away the products in wagons, when the time comes that there is less doing or there is nothing for the horses to do, they house the horses, they water them, they feed them, and generally care for them. Why the difference between the horse and the man?
  Mr. A. HOPKINSON: Because the horse finds great difficulty in getting other work itself.
  Mr. HODGE: The answer is this, that the horses are bought but the men are hired. There has to be a change in the method of dealing with the unemployed in this country. I heard my right hon. Friend use a certain word, although I do not think he used it in a disparaging way. He called this unemployment benefit a dole.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I did not do that.
  Mr. HODGE: Why a dole? Is it because, like the dictionary definition, it is "something that is given sparingly," or is it because it is something of a charitable character? It is not a dole. The men and the employers have been the contributing factors so far as that unemployment pay is concerned, and the Government to a very small extent. I sincerely hope that even yet the Government may realise that if the workers of this country are to be kept physically fit for the turn of the tide—there is no doubt that trade will boom again—unless you have physically fit workmen there will be a limitation of output. I trust that when the Bill is in Committee my right hon. Friend will see his way to eliminate the Clause with respect to special claims. When my right hon. Friend introduced his Motion on

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  8th June he stated that the continuance of the trade depression, badly accentuated by the coal dispute, made the change absolutely necessary. This Bill is the third attempt of the Government to deal with unemployment since the 1920 Act came into operation on 8th November, 1920. In the calculations (Command Paper 498) of the Government actuary for the original Act, the figures for unemployment were given as 5·22 as the yearly average over a series of years. I am afraid that the figures given to-day are twice that average. If we accept that as correct, the finance of the 1920 Act was passed wrongly and erroneously. Have we any reason to hope that the actuary's calculations on the present occasion will be any more accurate than they were on the previous occasion? From that point of view alone my right hon. Friend ought to revise the conclusion at which he has arrived.
  There is another point which I should like to put before the House in connection with unemployment. I have already asked why the manual worker should be the only person when bad times come to be thrown, as it were, on the scrap heap, or have to be contented with a small unemployment donation. In the Civil Service, it does not matter whether the civil servants are fully employed or partially employed, whole salaries are paid. If they are off sick, full salaries are paid. When they go on their lengthy holidays, full salaries are paid. I know that in my right hon. Friend's own Department some persons are very slack at the moment. Many of them find it difficult to put in half time, but their salaries are paid.
  Dr. MACNAMARA indicated dissent.
  Mr. HODGE: My right hon. Friend is not always on the job. He has not eyes at the back of his head. Many other Government Departments are in a similar position. The police, whether they are busy or slack, in sickness or in health, get their pay, and after 25 years' service, no matter how fit they are, they get pensions, and with their pension they go into the labour market and compete with those who can only live as a result of their labour. When we look at all these classes of society the question is, why is the worker the only one to suffer when unemployment comes? They are the people who have to find the salaries of
  468
  the other people to whom I have referred. I do not mean to say that we could do without the other people, but I am satisfied that we could do without some of them. I have been endeavouring to find out the cost of administering the Unemployment Insurance Acts, but I have been absolutely unable to discover the real cost. Be that as it may, we on this side are dissatisfied, and we shall oppose with all the power of which we are capable the further passage of this Bill. The richest country in the world is treating shamefully the men who threw down their implements of labour and rallied round for the saving of the country. Presumably the thing that the country condemned in the Germans, namely, that of tearing up a treaty and regarding it as a scrap of paper, prevails to-day. We cannot look upon any of the legislation that has been passed so far as labour is concerned, except to be treated by the Government as a scrap of paper.
  5.0 P.M.
  Mr. KIDD: I think most Members of the House will agree with the right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat, that the Minister of Labour at this time has a very disagreeable duty. I should have preferred the right hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) to have gone further, and said he was inclined to take the view that the Minister of Labour had, on behalf of the workers, exhausted the possibilities of a difficult situation. Nobody likes to break wages, and still less does anyone like to break something which is in the nature of an alimentary allowance. The right hon. Gentleman's speech continued to propagate the idea that the wages of the worker are totally unrelated to the earnings of the industry. I suggest that the propagation of that false idea has been, in no small measure, responsible for that calamity in the mining industry which is now, we hope, coming to a close—a calamity which has been so disastrous to the trade of the country as a whole, and has made the condition of unemployment worse than it otherwise might have been. To continue the propagation of that false idea from any part of the House, is to incur a very serious responsibility in adding to the troubles of the workers of this country.
  I have no sympathy with a man who pretends to find that the worker is generally loafing. You will find loafers

  469
  in every occupation, trade or profession. I find them in my own, even with a good table of fees to stimulate them, and I grant that, among the manual workers, you may find a man who has been born lazy, and to whom 15s. without work is much preferable to a pound in a job. But I have too much faith in the industrial classes to entertain for a moment the view that that particular individual is other than most exceptional. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in his somewhat chaffing reference to the hon. and gallant Gentleman who alluded to domestic service. I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite is a married man or not. If he is a married man, he has not given the attention to the domestic problem that he ought. Otherwise, he would know that the domestic service problem is more complicated than he seems to imagine. Had the hon. Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) been present, I should have pointed to the difficulty of the domestic service question as being to some extent the result of the legislation, which has been common in recent years, which has tended to ignore the differences in the sexes. I would also remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite that, in the old days, women married earlier than they do now, and the trained domestic service was a discipline which was gladly undertaken by a woman who had to be the mistress of a home in some years' time. But, with the liberty which women enjoy to-day, and the possibility of taking up an occupation with larger freedom, marriage is not regarded, perhaps, as it was in other days. This condition has been aggravated by the conditions of the War. During the period of the War service of any kind on behalf of the State was in such demand that young girls found numerous opportunities of earning large wages—
  Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: Ten times that of a soldier.
  Mr. KIDD: They may take an entirely false view of the value of their services, but, looking to the large wage they enjoyed then, and looking, above all, to the freedom they enjoyed together with that large wage, these factors sufficiently explain why domestic service to-day is not so congenial and attractive as it was in other days. I sympathise with the
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  Minister of Labour. I congratulate him upon making the best of the conditions under which he is operating, and I do say this to Labour Members: Let us realise that the Minister of Labour spoke truth when he said that you cannot fill a pail from an empty well. If we can view the situation sufficiently to bring home the fact that wages are dependent upon the earnings of industry, and can only be obtained so far as the industry can support them, we in this House shall have done a service towards diminishing unemployment.
  In conclusion, let me refer to some unhappy analogy which the right hon. Gentleman who opposed this Bill gave with regard to the workman on the one hand and the public servant on the other. On the one hand, your public servant is a party to a contract, which has no relation to the earning power of any industry. The workman, on the other hand, has to take wages which must always be dependent on the earning capacity of his industry. Therefore, it is unfair to spread about the country that the policeman, the public servant and other public servants are being favoured in comparison with the workman, when the positions are so distinct one from the other. There appears to be such an anxious desire on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to misrepresent the position of the Government, that he does not hesitate to employ analogies which, while they may do service on the platform, are totally unworthy of Members of this House.
  Mr. SEXTON: If all the speeches delivered to-night are no more illuminating than the one we have just heard, I venture to say the Minister of Labour will have every reason to say, "Save me from my friends." From beginning to end, there was not one word calculated to solve or assist the problem before the House. I am not going to quarrel with the Minister of Labour so much as I am going to quarrel with the Bill. I recognise the very difficult position. My sympathy all goes out to the Minister of Labour in the circumstances under which he has introduced this Bill. Had the right hon. Gentleman taken our advice 12 months ago, he could have saved himself all this annoyance and uneasiness, and, if the Government had backed him up in adopting our suggestions, they would have been saved all this annoyance and uneasiness. We on this side,

  471
  pointed out the possibility of all these things occurring, and that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) has again suggested, the only way out of the difficulty was that the industries should bear the burden of their own unemployment.
  I am only going to deal with one point of the amending Bill. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the six days' qualifying period was in the 1911 Act. May I point out that the new Acts brought in 750,000 men who were not within the provisions of the 1911 Act, who were not insured against unemployment, even although their own trade unions were not insured against unemployment, and those Acts compelled them to pay 5d. a week. The qualification difficulties were so great that not 9 per cent. of those men were ever able to qualify. We protested at that time against the introduction of a class of casual labour being placed on the same quaifying basis as men in permanent employment. It was then only three days' qualifying period, and I pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that it was practically impossible for 85 per cent. of the casual labourers to qualify within the three days' qualifying period. Let me give one or two cases. The right hon. Gentleman has based his calculation on index figures—on cost of living. I am basing my calculation on the figures of the men who are compelled to pay 7d. a week and never get any return for it. I am basing my calculations on the men who cannot get any living of any kind at any cost.
  I gave the House some figures some days ago, even with the three days' qualifying period. I gave the case of a man who is looking for work three times a day and who has got to register three times a day. He is idle on Monday, gets half a day's work on Tuesday, is idle on Wednesday, gets half a day on Thursday, is idle on Friday, and gets half a day on Saturday. Although that man has been idle 4½ days in the week, even with three days' qualifying period, he has paid his money and gets no benefit. Three-quarters of a million of men are in that position to-day in this country. Men idle four and a half days a week are compelled by law to pay their quota towards the payment for unemployed men, and at the end of the week they cannot receive any benefit, although
  472
  the qualifying period of idleness is three days. Under this Bill you are extending the period from three days to six. Then if a man is only employed an hour in any one day of the week, though he is compelled to pay 7d. a week all the year round, he is disqualified from getting any benefit. Does the right hon. Gentleman expect us to sit down quietly and accept conditions of that kind which affect 750,000 men whom we represent? We are not going to sit down under these conditions. I would sooner see him exclude casual labour from the Act altogether, sooner see him repeal the Act altogether, than place him and ourselves in that impossible position. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall), if he gets a chance, may deal with other items in connection with casual labour. I am dealing entirely with this question. I want the House to understand that it is physically impossible for these men to qualify in any circumstances.
  I protest also against what has been said about the dole. How can you call it a dole? A man subscribes to a national fund out of which he gets a miserable return. Nobody is giving him a dole. It is his own money which he is getting back when he gets it. In our case he never gets it. I object also, and always will object, to conditions which I consider a humiliation of the working classes of this country. I detest to see these men lining up in queues three times a day, going down to the docks looking for a job in a long queue, then going up to the Labour Exchange and lining in a long queue two or three times a day and waiting until they get their turn at the pigeon-hole to end in the humiliating confession that they cannot get a job. Then what is 15s. a week to a man in that position? The right hon. Gentleman and the Government have been simply asking for the trouble which they have got. They have sown the wind and they are now reaping the whirlwind. All these Unemployment Acts, which are not worth the paper on which they are written, have been introduced as a sop to keep the workers quiet. I have done one man's share in endeavouring to keep our men quiet. Does the right hon. Gentleman imagine that this humiliating confession which he is making now is going to keep them quiet any longer? His object all along has been to chloroform the men, and to say, "Look

  473
  at what we are giving you, and what we mean to do"; in other words, "Codling's your friend, not Short." That has been the policy of the Government all along, and they must not be disappointed if these men who are asked to pay, and are penalised when they do pay, recognise that this is the last straw that breaks the patient workman camel's back.
  Mr. HOGGE: There is another Amendment on the Paper which expresses the views of the party with which I am associated, though of course, those of us who act together are going to support the rejection of the Bill moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge). May I draw attention to one of these extraordinary contrasts that occur so often in the history of this House? Yesterday afternoon at this hour these Benches were crowded with Members listening to the speech of the Minister who is spending £28,000,000 of our money in setting up Emir Feisal, or a man of some name of that sort, as the new ruler in Mesopotamia, a country which has involved us already in enormous expenditure, and which many of us think, in spite of what was said yesterday, will still continue to involve the country in vast expenditure, and to-day these Benches are empty but for the white and red colours when we are dealing with the question which is at the bottom of the whole unrest in this country and a situation which may, if it develops, require the creation of a defence force in this country instead of offensive and defensive forces in Mesopotamia. It is not to the credit of the House of Commons that these contrasts should occur. After all, people outside are observant, and my friends of the Labour party who sit behind me will take every legitimate step—
  Mr. FILDES: There are only eleven of them.
  Mr. HOGGE: Will the hon. Member count the number of Coalition Liberals who are present while I am pursuing the tenor of my speech and tell me. The fact is, that there are far too few of all of us here. My hon. Friends of the Labour movement will not fail to draw attention to the fact that the Secretary of State for the Colonies asked for leave to spend £28,000,000 yesterday upon a country which, after all, does not con-
  474
  cern us, and when we come to consider what we should do in regard to unemployment we have this ragged and poor House of Commons to discuss the question. This obviously is the wrong time to seek to reduce the benefits which we are paying to the unemployed. Those of us on this side, though we have pursued a policy of economy in a great many other directions, are unwilling to assent to any economy being made in this direction while these other extravagances are allowed to continue. For that reason we shall vote against this Bill. In our reasoned Amendment we give two reasons why we think this is extravagant. We point, for instance, to the civil war in Ireland. We are spending to-day in Ireland over £20,000,000 a year because we have not the common sense to allow the Irish people to govern themselves. We are spending that money because the Government are pursuing a policy which is destructive of life and property in Ireland.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): The hon. Member is entitled to refer to the amount of money that is spent in Ireland, but he is not entitled to assail the Government policy in Ireland.
  Mr. HOGGE: I have no intention of making any lengthy remarks with regard to the policy of the Government in Ireland. I was only indicating that the policy meant the destruction of life and property. This Bill is an attempt, an inadequate attempt, to dealt with life in this country, and I was only making what I thought was a perfectly legitimate reference in passing to the fact that money was spent in destroying life in another country which would be better spent in protecting life at home. This is the Second Reading of this particular Bill, and I hope that you are not going to rule too tightly with regard to references of this sort. I remember the introduction of the first National Health Insurance Bill. I was not in the House at the time. I did not come in until about 12 months after that, but I remember welcoming it outside as a contribution to the industrial life of the country. The original Act took into cognisance a limited number of very skilled trades, and it is only in later years that the area of the occupations included in the Bill has been extended. The widest extension is probably due to causes aris-

  475
  ing out of the War, including what my hon. Friend has described as the dole. The fact that the insurance was confined to those skilled trades was that the Act built up a big reserve, so big that the Minister of Labour, in introducing the Bill on the 3rd March, 1921, dealt with the surplus of £20,000,000 which had been built up by the contributions of employers, employés, and the State, and incidentally, in reference to the remark of my hon. Friend as to each trade providing for itself, I do not think that that is a possible solution, because some industries are so skilled and so situated that they can keep their unemployed very much better than other industries, and the only way you could utilise it would be to revert to the practice of a pool. The proof of that is, that with those selected industries with which we began we did build up a reserve of £20,000,000.
  You have used that money; you have used if for a purpose other than that for which it was provided. It is not your money to use. It is the money of those skilled trades which contributed it. Now owing to the policy of the Government which has produced unemployment and more unemployment and more unemployment, you come to the very people whose £20,000,000 you have taken, and you say to them, "We shall give you less benefit and make you contribute more." I do not know how any Government is going to face that situation and to face the representatives of those skilled industries. The Government is responsible for many sins, and it ought to take the full responsibility of everything for which it is blameworthy. The Government would have been in a £20,000,000 worse position financially and they would have required to throw that burden on the backs of the taxpayers unless they had resorted like thieves in the night to the £20,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman indicates that that is incorrect. Has he used the £20,000,000 that was reserved for other purposes? Does he propose to put the money back? If he proposes to put it back, out of what money does he propose to put it back?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: For the first 12 months after the Armistice the State made a direct grant to civilians out of work. It was £22,000,000. From the first day after the Armistice to 31st March of this year the State made another direct
  476
  grant to ex-service men of £40,000,000. That is £62,000,000 all together. They were the people who in a great many cases would have come upon this fund. It is because of those direct grants that the fund was what it was, and because of those grants I can turn to the fund now.
  Mr. HOGGE: I do not think that that is anything like an answer to the point I have put. As a matter of fact, the Government promised to find work for every man after the Armistice. They came into this House with that plan. We were to have a state of affairs in this country under which we would have more employment, and they gave what they now call the doles in order to prevent as far as possible the effect of public opinion when so many men were out of work. In fact, the Government could not do what it had promised to do. It got out of the difficulty by spending £62,000,000 in doles, which did not, of course, go to men who otherwise would have been on the funds. Were they getting the money twice over? If they were not getting it twice over there could not have been any of the £62,000,000 affected. If the men were in the skilled trades to which I have referred, trades which built up the £20,000,000 reserve, and they were out of work, they were drawing the money. If they were drawing the money they were not drawing the special dole, and if they were not drawing the special dole they are not the men about whom we are talking now. There is no use in an interruption of that kind unless we are talking about the same thing. There is no point in my right hon. Friend getting up and saying that the Government has spent £62,000,000 in giving doles to other people when we are discussing the £20,000,000 of people under the Act.
  In a reasoned Amendment which is on the Paper there are reasons given why we object to this Bill. With regard to policy, the only thing that will prevent unemployment is work, and the only way you will get work is by carrying out a policy which does not interfere with work. Every part of the legislation of this Government, the Safeguarding of Industries Bill, the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, and so forth, which the Government insist on pushing through, are preventing the clearing of the channels of work between this country and other countries: 28,000,000 the people of this country, more than half the population, live and have their being

  477
  in the export trade of this country. It is true to say that because of the policy of the Government those 28,000,000 are not so actively in touch with the markets of the world as they should be. That is why I condemn this Bill. To try to fob off a situation which has been created by the artificial methods by which the Government interfere with trade is pure nonsense. The Government should get its neck down to the reasons of trade between this country and the whole of the world. Neither this House nor anyone outside can deal adequately with the question of unemployment by piecemeal Bills of this kind.
  In the last Debate I made a speech in which I got the assent of right hon. and hon. Members opposite to a statement that the time had long since come when we should address ourselves not only to the question of unemployment but to the whole question of the revision of the Poor Law and the spending of money on old age pensions, and that we should bring them under one really sensibly controlled Department of State. One hon. Member suggested that the way to deal with unemployment was to let every industry carry its own unemployment. Someone else suggested that under the Poor Law we should do this, that, and the other, because what is given is not enough for anyone to subsist on. So that under the State aegis we have State money being spent unprofitably because of the multiplicity of organisations with which it deals. It is true that the Government, having got themselves into a mess, must get themselves out of it as best they can; but while we are discussing the temporary position in which we find ourselves, do not let us forget that there is a far wider problem to which we have not addressed ourselves—the collocation of the facts with regard to this great problem and the devising of some kind of scheme which would save enormously in administration and would not provide the temptation of what we call a dole, but would be sufficient to maintain a man when out of work in physical fitness without losing any pride in his work, and would give him a chance eventually to resume his place in the community without moral or physical detriment. It is a farce for the Government to ask us to begin economising with a Bill of this kind which is a breaking of the contract made by Statute only three months ago.
  Lieut.-Colonel ALLEN: I suppose we are all more or less interested in a particular trade which we would like to see assisted, and at the same time we have all a general interest in the prosperity of the country and of trade. Naturally I look to the trade about which I know most. I do not like to speak in this House about things of which I know nothing. There are those here who understand the great cotton industry, the great steel trade, the coal trade, and the shipping trade, but my knowledge particularly is limited to the trade of my own part of the United Kingdom, the linen trade. May I say how much I appreciate the work of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this particular Department? He has been most sympathetic in every way possible to an individual Member of the House who has troubles of various kinds placed before him for solution. I would like to pay this tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and his Department. A great deal has been said from time to time about employment exchanges. My own experience is that since the operation of these Acts employment exchanges have been almost worked to death. Night and day, almost, they are trying to get over the difficulties with which they are faced. I would like to pay a tribute to the work they have done in connection with unemployment in addition to all their other work. In my opinion the officials are in some cases very ill-paid for what they do.
  I would like to approach this question of unemployment from a business standpoint. It is very easy for us to get up and say that the Government must come to the rescue. I should like to repeat that statement all the time; but we seem to forget who is the Government, what is the Government, or of what they have control in order to deal with a difficult subject like this. From the remarks of some Members one would really think that all the expenditure by the various Departments grows on a tree. It is very simple to get up and say, "Oh, the Government must undertake this great responsibility." It is the workman, and what is sometimes called the capitalist, and every individual member of the United Kingdom who has a stake in the country, who must eventually take responsibility. Let us try to face this in a businesslike way. I cannot say how sorry I am at the possibility of these payments being reduced from 20s. to 15s.

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  It is most regrettable. What I do want to see is where the money is to come from. The hon. Member who has just spoken referred to the sum passed yesterday for Mesopotamia. Well, it may be right and it may be wrong, but one thing certain is, that this country is committed to it, and we must stand by our commitments as an honourable nation.
  Mr. HOGGE: You are committed to this.
  Mr. WIGNALL: Doubly committed to it.
  Lieut.-Colonel ALLEN: So far as the interruptions are concerned, though the Government is committed to this, I ask, did the Government for a moment consider, or did any hon. Member opposite consider, on the 1st March last, the possibility of such an increase in unemployment as that which has occurred? I doubt it very much. Had it been possible for the Government to conceive at that time the extent of unemployment at the present time, I believe a very different Bill would have been introduced then. Indeed, so far as my recollection goes, when the Government introduced their Bill early in March the unemployment dole was to have been 18s. per man. Because of the appeals of hon. Members on both sides of the House it was increased to 20s. I believe the Government are finding out their mistake now. Had they kept to the original figure, it is quite possible we might not have seen this Bill to-day. We have at the present moment an extraordinary state of affairs in the coal trade. We have the Government throwing £10,000,000 at the heads of the miners—
  Mr. HALLS: Not the miners. The mineowners and royalty owners.
  Lieut.-Colonel ALLEN:—in order to coax them back to work. In my trade we would be delighted to have work to go back to. That is the trouble with us. Ours is a trade which the War is directly responsible for ruining. Looms, mills, machinery, capital, everything was taken possession of by the Government for the purposes of the War, and we were delighted to lend every help but the result of it all is that we have now a state of unemployment in that
  480
  industry which is appalling. I am sorry to say, so far as we can see, there is very little prospect in the immediate future of that trade reverting to its former activity. I shall not trouble the House with the why and the wherefore, but it all arises from conditions immediately resulting from the War. There are such questions as that of the flax industry and the stoppage of flax from Russia and other matters which are peculiar to that industry and into which I do not propose to enter, but I want the Minister in charge of this Bill to realise what this reduction means to the workers in an industry which is specially affected in the way I have indicated. I would join heartily with hon. Members opposite in appealing to him, for the present, at all events, to let the dole remain as it is if he can possibly do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is not a dole!"] I apologise for using the word "dole." It is a word which comes into our mouths before we know of it. As regards the unemployment benefit of 20s., it is not a question of keeping body and soul together. We know it is nothing for a family to live on, but we would like it to remain at the present figure. I would also like to understand more about the manner of dovetailing the Act of March last with the Bill before the House and as to how the present Bill will affect the continuity of the unemployment benefit now being paid. What the workers over in Ulster are asking to-day is, when the unemployment benefit under the last Act comes to an end when or how is it to be renewed under the new Act? They want to be sure that they are going to get some unemployment benefit, even if it only helps to keep body and soul together. The Motion before the House which is tantamount to one for rejection of the Bill is inadvisable. The Government must count the cost, as men of business who have before them all the troubles which unemployment brings, and who have before them the question of the permanent stability of this country. We cannot forget that there is a vast revenue to be raised during the coming financial year. We should keep before our minds when we are debating a Bill like this the question of where all this revenue is coming from. Furthermore, all this revenue has been detailed for necessary expenditure and if additional money is required, it is only a business proposition that we should inquire where it is to come from. We

  481
  must face that point. It is no use merely saying that the Government must come to the rescue. We should also ask ourselves, can the nation stand any further taxation?
  Mr. W. CARTER: Can we see these people starve?
  Lieut. - Colonel ALLEN: I have already said I am quite with hon. Members opposite in asking for a retention of the 20s., if it is at all possible, but I would be a fool, nay, a maniac, if I were not prepared to face both sides of the question. Let the House realise that this year the Government have assessed this country for the largest Income Tax it has ever been assessed for in history. Let us realise that this is a time of depression and unemployment such as the country has never passed through before. Let us realise that so long as that depression continues it is impossible for any business or trade to pay the enormous tax in which the country is assessed. Let us realise that this tax has been assessed on three of the most prosperous years the country has ever seen, but that it is going to be paid in a year of the greatest depression the country has ever seen. I hope this Bill, when it comes to Committee, will be so amended that at all events the unemployed in this country may be sure of getting some of this unemployment benefit to keep them from starving. I do not know what is going to happen in my part of the country if unemployment continues. The Government certainly must come to the rescue in some way or another. Perhaps in the minds of some hon. Members present is the query, "You have got a Parliament of your own, and why not look after your own unemployment?" It is just a little bit previous to ask that. I would have hon. Members recollect that the contributions of the workmen there come into the general pool, and the taxes of Ireland come into the general pool also. So far as this Bill and other Measures of this character are concerned we still participate, and we look with confidence to the right hon. Gentleman who has charge of this Measure, aided no doubt by businesslike suggestions from hon. Members opposite, to do his utmost to retain this unemployment benefit at the present rate.
  6.0 P.M.
  Mr. JOHN: I have listened to the arguments put forward as to the desirability of introducing Amendments to the Bill, and dealing first with the last hon. Member who has spoken, I may point cut that he seemed at a loss to know where to put the blame for unemployment. It was the practice in years gone by to argue that unemployed people were necessarily shirkers and wasters, and that there was sufficient employment to be found in the country. That argument does not apply at the present time. I think the experience of the War has demonstrated that unemployment is not to be attributed to the human factor, but is consequent upon an unsound economic system. The hon. Member failing to find an argument in that direction went on, in a indirect way, to attribute some of the present unemployment to the miners' strike. He said the Government had offered £10,000,000 to coax the miners back to work. If we analyse that for a moment we must ask ourselves, why should the Government be in the position of coaxing miners back to work with a bribe of £10,000,000? The miners' stoppage is a direct result of the action of the Government, and the increased unemployment consequent upon that stoppage is also a result of the attitude of the Government. If the Government had to spend £27,000,000 or £28,000,000 in order that its word should be its bond in regard to Mesopotamia and Palestine, in order to be honourable, in order to be able to carry out its obligations, should not the Government be equally as honourable in carrying out an Act of Parliament regarding the control of the coal mines? I do not know that the word "honour" can be confined to certain specific instances, and surely if there was an obligation on the part of the Government to be loyal to its word with regard to spending £27,000,000 in Mesopotamia and Palestine, it is equally bound to fulfil its obligations to the miners in respect to the control of the mines. Not only has the Government by its policy created unemployment, but it has added to the taxation of the people in this country. What about the Defence Force? Did they consider the question of the taxation of the people when they raised that force? The county council of Glamorganshire the day before yesterday had to spend £1,000 simply in order to

  483
  maintain certain conveyances that are kept idle and useless during the whole period in order to meet the eventuality of taking police from one village to another. This county has had to spend £60,000 for maintenance of police in that particular area, where they were not wanted, and before the business is over it will cost that county council anything from £80,000 to £90,000, if not £100,000. Who is going to pay? It will have to come either from the rates or from the taxes, and at any rate it is the working classes of that county who will have to pay. There are military in that particular area at the present time, and the Defence Force is going to cost the taxpayers of that county a large sum of money. Surely if the Government are so considerate of the taxpayers, they should have given very careful consideration before they organised a Defence Force and embarked upon a policy which has created unemployment consequent on the dispute between themselves and the miners.
  I said just now that unemployment is not to be attributed to the human factor but to the present unsound economic situation. This Government has been upholding that system and has been reverting to the system of private ownership during the past twelve or eighteen months more than anybody else, and as unemployment is directly the outcome of this system the Government and no one else should be responsible for the suffering which results. They say they cannot afford more than 15s. a week because it will entail more taxation. Did they consider more taxation when they passed the £60,000,000 for the railway magnates? They may argue that the railway directors were entitled to the £60,000,000 owing to the fact that consequent upon the control of the railways during the War, wear and tear, and everything else, the money was legally and morally due to them, but unemployment is equally a consequence of the War, and if the Government intend to be honourable in fulfilling their obligations by paying £60,000,000 to the railway directors, surely it is not unreasonable to expect that the Government should be responsible to the extent of the £1 per week for unemployment that was passed in the month of February last. It seems to me that the Government does not know its own mind. The last speaker asked how the Government could visualise the future
  484
  with regard to the probability of unemployment. Attention has been called in the last four or five years in this House to the probability of acute unemployment consequent on the War, but the Government has closed its eyes. It has not been imbued with that particular spirit that would meet the probabilities of the future, and even in three months they have had to change their policy, not because they could not see three months ahead, not because the future was too dark for them to see for six months or twelve months ahead, because they knew very well that if decontrol of the mines took place there would be a dispute in the mining district which would cause great unemployment. Therefore the possibilities of the immediate future ought to have been sufficient to demonstrate that there would be unemployment for a long period and that the responsibility of the Government would be such that the £1 per week benefit should at least last so long as the unemployment would continue.
  The unemployment question has become very important. We have got these stoppages of the industries and the reductions in wages, and we have a large number of problems that we have to face at the present time, but beside the problem of unemployment all these other problems are paling into insignificance. The method of dealing with unemployment is not to reduce the amount of benefit from 20s. to 15s. a week. That is not going to economise, and it is time for this Government to realise that it cannot economise on the stomachs of the working classes. It will be false economy. When there is again activity in the industries of this country, the working classes will be required to carry on that activity, and surely you cannot expect the working men to be in a position to take up their ordinary work, when industries resume their activities, if they have to live for a certain period upon 15s. a week. It is impossible for them to live. The same Government that attempts to reduce the unemployment pay from 20s. to 15s. a week is at the same time refusing to operate the Increase of Rent (Restrictions) Act, and in my constituency the rents in themselves, with the increase that will be operative next month, and with the rates that are payable at the present time, will be more than the 15s. a week that

  485
  will be paid in unemployment benefit. Therefore the 15s. is not sufficient even to pay rent, and from the point of view of keeping these people alive, the £1 should be kept up for a longer period, for the period, indeed, that the unemployment owing to the present depression in trade continues.
  Mr. JOHNSTONE: I do not think the Minister of Labour had any choice but to submit this Bill at the present time, and I thought my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) was rather severe upon the right hon. Gentleman. We are faced with exceptional circumstances, such as the difficulty of meeting the abnormal amount of unemployment which prevails throughout the country at the present time, the state of the public finances, the difficulty of maintaining the benefit which has been paid in the past, and when we reflect on the figures which have been put before the House by the Minister of Labour to-day we must, I think, come to the conclusion that the contributions towards the benefit for unemployment amount to a vast sum. I quite agree with the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that there has been great Extravagance in other Departments, and that we have wasted our substance in riotous expenditure in many parts of the world, but we have to come down to the practical hard case that is presented to us, and I think this House will be well advised to pass this Bill and to give this fresh departure a trial. The whole system of unemployment insurance requires revision. When we come to more normal times greater provision will require to be made for unemployment, and the benefits must cover a longer period and be greater in amount. I remember well, when the Insurance Bill was first introduced, how many of the employers throughout the country objected to the provisions contained in that Measure. It seemed to them that there was far too much trouble involved, that the whole thing was far too complicated and the benefits too poor. We had the stamping of cards, we had the contribution to be paid by the employer, we had the contribution to be paid by the workman, and when a man was out of work he received a sum of 7s. a week. The game was hardly worth the candle, and what we have got to do is to realise that industry must to a large extent endeavour to maintain its unemployed. I do not think
  486
  that the suggestion that each industry should maintain its own unemployed is a practical suggestion, although I once held it myself. To tie down particular workers to a particular industry through the unemployment scheme of that industry would work out most unsatisfactorily. I have come to the conclusion that the only way, and the best way, that provision can be made for our unemployed, who are always with us ever at the best of times, is through insurance. Now, when we have got the Insurance Act recast and remodelled to a certain extent, a larger number of trades brought in to the Act, and a greater number of people covered by insurance, we ought to set ourselves, when normal times come again, to extend the operations of the Unemployment provisions of the Insurance Act so as to build up a fund or pool that would give larger benefits in the future than we have ever given in the past.
  The present benefits are far too meagre. The old 7s. per week was quite absurd. The proposed benefits under this Bill are very, very poor benefits to pay under present conditions, with the high cost of living, which still prevails in this country. How is it to be done? I think that employers ought to pay more. I do not believe in a non-contributory scheme. It is a good thing that the workmen who receive benefits should pay a contribution. That gives them greater independence. They will feel that they are not receiving a dole, but are receiving out of the fund to which they have contributed. That will give a greater spirit of independence to the workmen who will feel they are receiving that to which they have a right through their contributions.
  The cost of unemployment should be one of the first charges upon industry. I believe that in the future we must set ourselves to make ampler provision for unemployment. As I indicated, the benefit, I think, should be larger. The parties to be covered should be greater and the fullest possible provision be made under the remodelled Insurance Act to provide the largest amount that can be given to the worker. I go the length of saying that when a man is out of work we should have such ample provision as would give him almost two-thirds of his ordinary wages. When unemployment takes place in any industry in ordinary times, what

  487
  happens? When a great depression sets in, and when the employer has resolved either to work short-time or suspend his workmen, what follows? Workmen who surely are responsible for building up that industry and for creating the wealth of the country, are thrown out of employment without any provision being made by the employer except through insurance. The permanent and the managerial staff get their wages whether they work or not. We ought to try to approximate as near as possible the other workmen to that condition, so that when a man, through no fault of his own, is thrown out of work through ordinary trade depression, he ought not to be called upon to suffer the pangs of hunger.
  I know that many employers will object to a larger burden being cast upon them for making provision for unemployment. They should reflect that this thing ought to be looked upon as one of the first charges to be cast upon industry. Employers should address themselves to this situation: that one of the main essentials to them in the proper carrying on of their work is to have a contented people working, and that no man ought to have staring him in the face from time to time this grim spectre of unemployment. Many of us well-to-do Members of this House do not realise what happens in our industrial communities, what a great, terrible, and tragic spectre is unemployment to the men, women, and children of these communities, and the feeling that any day the wage-earner may be thrown out of work, with no possibility of getting a job, and with hunger stalking into the home and distress and misery following. In view of all this, I do not think it is too great a demand to be made upon the industries of the country that one of the first charges should be the very much larger expenditure needed as the cost of maintaining the unemployed.
  What benefits would result from that? It would produce a larger and a better feeling between capital and labour. If we had the consciousness impressed upon the minds of the workers that in the event of depression taking place there would be no need to tighten the belt, that through that period of depression the provision made by themselves, their employers, and the State that there was sufficient to tide them over the ordinary period of depression, and so avoid the calamities that
  488
  follow in the train of a prolonged period of unemployment, it would be well. Provision of this kind would meet a great and a pressing need, and would go a long way to allay Labour unrest and to promote the solution of the whole industrial problem with which we are faced in this country. On these grounds, therefore, I heartily support the Minister who has produced this Bill, and I do not think he had any other choice than to do what he has done. I do not see how he could maintain the old benefits. It is regrettable that they have to be reduced. We must, however, face the situation in a practical way. There is no other choice at present, so far as I can see, than to agree to this Bill, and be cheerful that in the midst of our trials and troubles we have something towards meeting the present unemployment and distress in this country I fervently hope that when all our present troubles are over and we get to normal conditions again in the industrial life of the country, that this House will address itself to a full and comprehensive Measure of Unemployment Insurance, taking no niggardly view of its obligations towards the industries of the country. Let us address ourselves to that task with one guiding principle in front of us: the problem of making provision for the unemployed, who, in times of trade depression, have one of the first claims upon industry and upon the employers of the country—that in good times we build up a sufficient and substantial sum to meet any demands that may be made.
  Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: One of the hon. Members for Ulster complimented my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, on his personal courtesy on every possible occasion. I should like to associate myself with that compliment. If I oppose the Second Beading of this Bill it is not from any desire to be discourteous, but from the conviction that the reduction of the benefits proposed is inconsistent with public policy, and not only inconsistent with public policy, but inconsistent with justice and morality. To reduce the benefit at the present moment is inconsistent with public policy, because I hardly take up a paper without seeing lectures to the working classes on the necessity of greater production. I have never yet been able to understand how you can really expect the workers in any great industry to work harder if during a

  489
  period of depression you tell them they have got nothing else to do but to tighten their belts and to suffer a period of semi-starvation. I also question whether the policy of this Bill is consistent with justice or morality. I really do not think, and never can see, where this House of Commons and the Government have the moral right to reduce the benefits of this Act below the level of subsistence.
  I really question whether it is consistent with justice of the case that when depression comes the whole burden should fall upon the workers. It must needs be that fluctuations in trade come. We are all agreed that it is possible for a wise policy to mitigate and modify the evil effects of fluctuations in trade. My complaint, however, against the Government is that so far from mitigating or modifying the inevitable fluctuations in trade they have aggravated it and increased it by a thoroughly unwise policy. The depression of trade from which we are suffering is to my mind due to the policy, an utterly wrong and mischievous policy, which the Government have pursued ever since the signing of the Armistice. Instead of encouraging the growth of the tender plant of good will and prosperity they have blighted that tender growth by their chilling phrases. Dean Inge has said that the present state of the country is due to the fact that we have been governed by men who do not believe in the possibility of Christian principles being applied to Government. As Ruskin, I think, somewhere says:
  "The hungry sheep look up and are not fed. Why? Because the head of the State is a blind mouth who scarce knows how to hold a sheephook, and has learnt what else the least that to the faithful herdsman's art belongs."
  Our troubles are entirely due to a policy which is based on dictation, coercion, and force, rather than on goodwill and co-operation. That which is happening in Russia, Turkey, Ireland, Germany, or Europe generally is to the general impoverishment of the world. Now I see by the papers that the Secretary of State for the Colonies goes to Manchester and delivers a speech giving us the encouraging information that our reparations policy is giving a monopoly of the export trade. To whom? Into the hands of the Germans! That is what I mean when I question whether this House of Commons has a moral right to reduce the Unemployment Benefit. An hon. Member
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  has asked where is the money to come from. Members of this House who support any particular policy never have any difficulty in pouring out money like water for that policy. There is no difficulty about finding money for Ireland and other places. Hon. Members opposite are responsible in a very large measure for the policy which has been pursued, and for having supported the Government in a thoroughly mischievous policy. They have, therefore, no moral right to go down to the workers and say that they should bear the burden of the results of their policy.
  I cannot say, either, that the policy of the Government has been any more helpful at home. I notice in the "Times" to-day that what is wanted is cheap coal and lower taxes. If we are to have improved trade in this country we must have cheap coal and lower taxes. We shall never, however, get cheap coal and lower taxes unless we have a policy of goodwill and helpfulness on the part of the Government. That is exactly my complaint. That is exactly what the Government have refused to supply. They have introduced a spirit of violence and force into the conduct of our industrial questions. While, of course, the miners and the mineowners have to bear a certain portion of the blame for the present distress and for what is going on now, the chief blame is, and must be, laid upon the shoulders of the Government. Nothing will persuade me that if the Government had really had a desire to prevent this strike they could not have done so, and by keeping on control a little longer, allowed goodwill and the sense of the miners and the mineowners to prevail. If we are to tide over this period of demobilisation from War to peace conditions, we must have a policy which permits a maximum amount of cooperation and goodwill. If it were desired by the Government to tide over that period, I submit that it was a profound mistake to create the impression in the minds of the workers of this country that the Government were allied with the employers in a frontal attack on the standard of life. If it is desired to get co-operation and goodwill in order to secure an improvement in trade, I submit that the speech of the Prime Minister at the Coalition luncheon was the most ill-advised speech ever delivered in this country. Instead of inviting the cooperation of the workers, the Prime

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  Minister declared that they were mostly Bolsheviks trying to upset society. I agree that the condition of this country is to a very large extent due to a set of people who do not believe it is possible to introduce the principle of the New Testament into the Government of the people. To get prosperity back we have to entirely reverse our policy, and base it upon goodwill and the co-operation of the workers rather than upon ill-will and strikes.
  Mr. HALLS: I listened very attentively to the statement made by the Minister of Labour, and I felt, after he had concluded, that he had made out the poorest case possible for a reduction of unemployment pay. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that the dispute in. the coal trade had very largely added to his troubles, and to the increased cost of unemployment. I beg to remind the right hon. Gentleman that he and his Government were absolutely responsible for the coal stoppage. I submit with all due deference that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have not carried out their pledge with regard to the Sankey Commission, or their pledged word on the last occasion in November, when the miners were induced to resume work on certain conditions, namely, that they would receive increased pay according to increased production, and that before coal was decontrolled, the Minister would submit a scheme agreed to by both sides. That was the pledged word of the Government. Again the pledge of the Government was broken on two occasions with regard to the coalminers, and for the life of me I cannot understand how the men who sit on the front Government Bench can expect working men to have any confidence in their pledged word again. Therefore, I submit that if it be a fact that that aggravated the whole position, they must now accept responsibility for the increased amount of unemployment money.
  I do not know whether any previous speaker has referred to another section of workpeople, but I wish for a moment to allude to the agricultural labourers. In doing so I would like to remind hon. Members of the history of the last year or two with regard to agriculture. During the period of the War we all know what took place with regard to agriculture. Prices went up, and farmers felt that they were
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  in a better position than ever, and certain guarantees were given to them. The Government did attempt to sneak out of their pledge to the farmers, but when they were called to book, they agreed to pay up the whole of the money the farmers claimed under the guaranteed prices for cereals, amounting, I think, to £25,000,000 or £35,000,000.
  Now agriculture is to be decontrolled, and we have had another breach of faith in regard to the agricultural labourers. I want to remind the House of the position in which the farmers are placed, because in this case the farmers were let down. We all know that during the War the landlords kept their land, and did not attempt to sell it, but no sooner was the Armistice signed than there was a big rush on the part of the landowners to get rid of their estates. Thousands of little farmers who had lived on the land for years, and were in the position of having saved a little money as the result of increased prices, had either to leave or buy the land when it was up for auction. They did this by borrowing money at a high rate of interest, and in a good many cases they were compelled to pay four or five times more for the land than it would have realised before the War. Now they find that they cannot pay the wages and the interest on the borrowed money. The result is going to be that farmers will have to sell their land again, because they cannot pay the interest and the wages, and it is fair to presume that the old landowners will be the people who will buy the land back again, perhaps at one-fourth the price which the farmers have paid for it.
  The labourer has no protection. The Wages Board has been scrapped, and now poor Hodge has to bear the burden by having his wages reduced to such a level as will make him rush from the villages to the towns to compete with the workers in the towns, and he will feel that he is bound to offer his labour at a lower wage than that which is being paid in the industrial centres. That is going to aggravate the position and lead to additional expense with regard to unemployment. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the difference between the income and expenditure which he anticipates will arise at the end of the year—I think he said there would be a deficit of something like £13,000,000

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  on the year's working. That is a pure guess; the estimate may be different either way.
  I am not concerned much about that, but the present position of the unemployed workmen is in the main due to the mischievous policy of the Government since the Armistice. I do not remember—and I have read the OFFICIAL REPORT for some time—any question being raised on the other side of the House as to how the money was to be spent when you were spending £100,000,000 in making war upon a country that did not want to be at war with you. I did not then hear any inquiries as to who was to bear the burden, or as to where the money was to come from. The same applies to the subsidies to the farmers and the railway industry, which are very much better represented here than the workers. There seems to have been no question about the £60,000,000 to be paid to the railway companies, but when it is a question of human life and flesh and blood, and not property and vested interests, apparently—I say it advisedly—it can be considered on a different plane.
  I want hon. Members to picture in their minds what is the position of some of the men whom I met just over a week ago during the election contest at Heywood. I had not been in the division until three weeks before polling day, but during that time I had excellent opportunities of getting the views of the people with whom I came into contact. Hundreds of people engaged in the textile trade told me that since January last they had had only three, four, or five weeks' work, and they added to that statement, "Fortunately we had, during the boom period, made good use of our time. We had our little savings in our co-operative stores, but now, as a result of the long period we have been out of work, all that has gone." They have been using their savings gradually to supplement the money they had had in the shape of unemployment pay through their trade unions and the Ministry of Labour. I submit that it is meanness in the extreme, in the hour of these people's adversity when they are feeling the worst pinch, to say to them, "We must reduce this payment, because if we do not cut down, there will be a certain deficiency."
  I submit with all due deference to those who may not agree with me that you
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  are going to impose this because you believe that it can be done with little risk of mischief or turmoil in this country. If you felt sure that the people of this country were going to resent it in such a way that they might make themselves a nuisance to you and your colleagues, you would hesitate before you proposed the Second Reading of this Bill. I submit that these victims of the period we are going through are entitled to better treatment than that which you are meting out to them. I am certain of this fact, that, although in electioneering I like to play the game as honourably as possible, I wish to say that had the news come out about this Bill one day earlier, I have no hesitation in saying that I should have been returned not with a 300 majority, but with a majority of 3,000.
  I got the message from the Chief Whip at 7 o'clock on the night of the poll. As soon as I got it, I took steps to make it known, and I shall not forget the look on the faces of the men and women when they read that message. I shall not forget some of the statements they made with regard to the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, and they spoke feelingly knowing what it meant to them personally. I submit that if you believe in what you say about this Empire, if you believe in the high-sounding platitudes which you use from time to time, and if they are not to be taken as more or less empty phrases, this is the time when you have an opportunity to prove that you believe in the greatness of your Empire. You can only do that by doing your duty by the humblest of your citizens in the moment of their adversity. Therefore, I am delighted to have an opportunity of opposing the Second Reading of the Bill. I hope the Minister will reconsider his position, and not persist with a Measure not only for his own credit's sake, but for the sake of men and women who will suffer by its enactment.
  Mr. FILDES: I am sure that hon. Members of this House will readily understand how the electors of the Heywood Division have been captured by the eloquence of the hon. Member who has just addressed us. I rise to put two points for the consideration of the Minister of Labour, and the first is this. We are all agreed that if it is possible

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  at all to do it the rate of pay or allowances granted under this Bill should be made higher than is at present suggested, and I would like to urge that without the expenditure of much more money this might be achieved. In my own constituency, and the same thing applies no doubt to the constituencies of other hon. Members, it is possible to find a number of young people varying in ages from 15 to 22, and no fewer than five of them may be living in one house. Yet each and every one of them draws £1 a week, while next door there may be a man with a wife and five or six children to support who get no more than £1 a week, as compared with the £5 for five young people. I would like to suggest for the consideration of the Minister of Labour whether something cannot be done to reduce the allowance to young unmarried people, and to increase that to married men with families. It is important we should follow this money home and see what it has to do. I shrink from the idea of suggesting the handing over to a married man with five or six children to support a sum of 15s. to enable him to keep them for a week in these disastrous times. I have heard a great deal this afternoon as to the cause of the trouble we are now facing. I can quite understand that the right hon. Members for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) and for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) will not allow a chance like this to pass without seeking to exploit it for party advantage. But I do not propose to follow on those lines at all.
  There is one other point I would like to mention, and it is that the whole of this business of making provision for unemployment must be recast at the earliest possible moment. There is no doubt at all that the first charge, before it can be said a business has made any profit, should be with a view to making some provision for the sustenance of the workpeople during periods of unemployment. A thoroughly substantial contribution might be made by the employed, by the employers, and by the Government, and we could get a solid basis on which the working man could take his stand in these intermittent periods of depression that affect the whole community. I should like to press strongly on the Minister, however, my point as to the allowances to young unmarried
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  people. When you have in the Ministry boys of 15 earning 35s. a week, and when you have, as is the case in my own line of business, girls of 16 or 17 going home, week after week, with £4 10s. per week, these young people, who have no obligations on their shoulders, ought to have been able to make some provision for a time like this, whereas a man with five or six children can have no opportunity of doing so. Therefore I do suggest that, if possible, something should be done to reduce the amount paid to young or unmarried persons and to increase that paid to married men with families to support. I think that would be a step in the direction of alleviating much of the suffering which this proposed reduction would inflict upon the community.
  Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: It is somewhat significant that the last three speakers on the Government side have practically with one accord expressed their very deep dissatisfaction with the Bill now before the House. They have almost all of them admitted the extreme hardship which it will inflict on the workers of this country. The hon. and gallant Member for Belfast elaborated at some length the point that in his own particular industry unemployment was caused absolutely through no fault of the workers or of the trade, but was an aftermath of the War. An hon. Member for one of the Scottish constituencies spoke of the necessity for bigger provision being made by industry for unemployment than is outlined in this Bill, and the hon. Member who last spoke (Mr. Fildes) likewise expressed complete dissatisfaction with the provision that is being made. Surely you could not have a more striking condemnation of the futility of the Government programme with regard to unemployed insurance. The Minister himself posed as the victim of circumstances. He referred to the coal mines stoppage and to other matters, which he pointed out had increased tremendously the amount of unemployment.
  Surely this question of unemployment and its insurance is no new problem. Committees and commissions year after year have sat to deal with it, and as far back as 1904 the Poor Law Commission recommended a comprehensive scheme dealing with the whole question—not a mere suggestion of palliatives, such as is

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  that for insurance, but a comprehensive scheme, whereby in time of prosperity the Government and the trade could coordinate and make provision so that in periods of depression the workpeople would have something to fall back upon History repeats itself. During the period of prosperity the Government of the day ignores the position, but when periods of depression come then the situation grows so serious that it becomes impossible to do more than deal in palliatives. I submit it is a serious condemnation of the policy of the Government that we have no really sound method of dealing with the question in these days. While the War was on we had a Ministry of Reconstruction which gave us excellent reports as to dealing with after-war problems. But instead of dealing with them in the first Session of the new Parliament after the War, and bringing in a comprehensive measure, the Government simply wasted the time of the House on a Conscription Bill which no one wanted and which was never of any use. It ought instead have applied its mind to these after-war problems with which we are now faced. They were beguiled with the fictitious prosperity which succeeded immediately after the War, but if they had followed economic history they would have known that as surely as the sun rises each morning that period of fictitious prosperity which came as an aftermath of the War, and of wasteful expenditure would be followed by a period of depression, such as we are now faced with.
  It is due to the delay of the Government in dealing with these questions that the present situation is so serious. They cannot shelter themselves behind any peculiar or particular conditions, such as the coal stoppage or bad trade. Is it not the wrong time to spend £28,000,000 in Mesopotamia when you are proposing to cut down the miserable unemployment benefit? It is said that we are under obligations and pledges to the Jews in Palestine. Are we not also under pledges and obligations to the workers of this country? I wonder how many Members of this House during the War went on to recruiting platforms and persuaded men to go to fight for their country overseas, promising them that when they came back they would have jobs found for them, and they would find that the country for which they had fought had not forgotten them. If we are pledged
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  to our gallant Arab Allies in Mesopotamia, we are under pledges and obligations just as sacred to our own men who went out in the time of the country's need to fight its battles, and who are now being asked to keep themselves and their families in periods of unemployment on the miserable pittance of 15s. a week! It seems as if we have moved very little in the last 100 years. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hodge) spoke of the treatment of horses. Anyone who turns to the writings of Thomas Carlyle will remember how he tell us, in dealing with the Manchester insurrection early last century, in almost exactly the same words as were used by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench, that the horses were well fed while innumerable human beings were starved to death. That is true also to-day. My hon. Friend opposite suggested that the men could go elsewhere for work, but horses could not. But does anyone assert that a worker who is to-day out of work is likely to get employment by going elsewhere? The fact is that the unemployment is so general and so widespread that there is no work to be got even if men want to do it.
  7.0 P.M.
  Is it suggested it is a question of malingering or of ca'canny? Every business man knows that the amount of unemployment in this country is really genuine, and that no worker; no matter how sincere may be his desire to get work can do so at this juncture. The workers are as much the victims of the aftermath of war as the French and Belgian refugees were the victims of the German invasion, and as we succoured then, it surely is not unreasonable to say there is an obligation on the part of the State and industry to see that our men and their families are not left to fend for themselves. One of the lessons learnt during the War was that the best proof of the organisation of an Army in the field was the attention it paid to those who fell by the way; to its casualties in fact, and that the surest sign of demoralisation in an Army was proved by its neglect of its casualties. If that is a sign of demoralisation in a fighting army, surely it is equally a sign of demoralisation in the industrial army if men are left to fall by the way and no care is shown for them. It is not unreasonable in these days to suggest that they should be made a charge on the community during exceptional periods like

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  this. No doubt it would involve a subsidy, but inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman took £20,000,000 from the skilled trades during the period of the War—which he has used to enable him to carry matters over to the present time, surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that he might very well mortgage the future, for no one pretends that when we get back to normal conditions we are going to have regular unemployment to the extent we have it now, or that even the 9½ per cent. budgeted for under the last Insurance Act will be reached. Therefore I submit that it would be a sound and statesmanlike policy to provide, by subsidy, by loan, and by mortgaging the future, in order that this exceptional time of unemployment and depression, for which the victims are in no way responsible, should be tided over. It would be a wise insurance policy and would avoid worse evils if we were to take that course and make provision during the coming year or the next two years until trade becomes stabilised. Apart from the human consideration there is nothing unsound in this from the economic point of view. What do we find in industry, as a whole? We find three factors. The only one which is excluded and disregarded in this matter is that of labour. You have land; the landlord draws his rent whether the works are employed or are idle. You have the capitalist, who has his shares. By means of reserve funds, provided in times of good employment and when work is profitable, he gets his dividends equalised in times of unemployment. The fixed plant and machinery are cared for and protected and kept in excellent condition, so that as soon as industry revives the wheels go round again and the whole thing works perfectly. As the right hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) said, even the pit ponies, the brute creation, are cared for and provided for by trade and industry. If it is sound common sense to make provision for land and capital, it is equally sound that in the human factor provision on business lines should be made for its protection. We have to realise that we cannot go back to the old laissez-faire policy, and that the country to-day has humaner interests and sentiments. If we are to realise the responsibilities of our nation we must see that provision is made
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  for those who, by no fault of their own, are thrown out of work through the cycles of trade or the aftermath of the War. If not, we shall be laying up for ourselves a heritage of worse things which none of us wish to see.
  Mr. A. HOPKINSON: In rising to support the Second Reading, I hope the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill will not think that I approve of it as a Bill. I merely approve of it as a slight modification of those evil factors which produce this unemployment, and which he deplores. Hon. Members on the other side have got up, one after another this evening, and have told the same tale, all appealing to the sentiment of the House by describing the terrible conditions that befall the working classes when unemployment is rife. They have all suggested that by a greater expenditure of public money this is going to be relieved, and ultimately done away with entirely. I ask them really to consider the matter free from all preconceptions and false sentiment. The question I have to put is, Would the increase of these unemployment benefits in any way mitigate the trouble of unemployment? To my mind it would do no such thing, because every penny which is spent on unemployment benefit creates more unemployment, and always will do so.
  I turn to an alternative suggestion, which has come from this side of the House, namely, that by some means or other each industry, as an industry, should provide for its own unemployment problem. That, at first sight, seems an extremely plausible suggestion, but it is necessary whenever suggestions of that sort are made to examine carefully what would happen in actual effect. What, happens in actual effect is that some of us employers, when trade is booming and everything is bright, take on very large numbers of workers beyond our normal numbers in order to make hay while the sun shines. Some of us, when trade becomes depressed, immediately dismiss these workers without any provision at all for them. Some of us, on the other hand, when trade is booming, restrain our greed and endeavour not to take on any more men than we can see work for for almost an indefinite period. If you make each industry responsible for its own problem of unemployment it will happen that those employers who

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  take a purely selfish view of the matter, and try to add to their profits in time of great prosperity by increasing the number of men they employ, will be supported in that policy by those of us who do the reverse. There will be no inducement to the contrary for those who endeavour even if it means a loss in booming trade, to provide a certainty of employment for those they employ. Therefore, that suggestion is a worthless suggestion.
  I am inclined, as hon. Members opposite possibly know, to regard all simple solutions of a difficulty as a snare and a delusion. That difficulties are not to be got round by easy ways has been my experience. These suggestions, that are put forward with the utmost goodwill, need most careful analysis before they are adopted by this House. Just in the same way, the unemployment policy of the Government, which was forced on them by the trade union leaders and the Labour party in the country, and which at first sight looks so simple and so beneficial, has, to a large extent, produced just the state of affairs which it is intended to obviate. Remember that every £1 of benefit paid under this scheme has already been provided by the people of this country. Setting aside for a minute the waste that takes place under great national schemes, infinitely better conditions would be provided if those whose contributions are taken away by the law of the country against their will were free to provide benefits for the same premiums. Because, when all is said and done, the only way—I have given great thought for many years to this question, and I am convinced I am right—to real prosperity and real contentment in industry is for as many people as possible in that industry to become capitalists. When I say capitalists I do not necessarily say they should become rich men living on the income of investment, but, as the people of my own county of Lancashire have done during the period of booming trade which has recently come to an end, they should week by week carefully refrain from spending all which they have earned, and week by week, it may be to a very small extent, accumulate savings—in other words, accumulate capital.
  The real trouble in industry is that the wage-earner at the present day is in a position of very great disadvantage as compared with the employer in making
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  that bargain which we call wages. He is obliged, unless his trade is highly organised through a trade union, when the offer is made to close with the offer, because he has nothing to fall back upon, and if he does not accept the offer he will be faced possibly with starvation. The trade union movement has resulted in a greater position of freedom with regard to his employer. By means of collective bargaining and the accumulation of common funds in trade unions, a very great deal of freedom has been gained for manual worker and wage-earner as compared with the position in regard to his employer before the trade union movement originated. Unfortunately, however, a very large proportion of that freedom which has been gained from the employer has had to be handed over to the trade union itself. Really these aspirations, the real ideals of labour, the ideals for a freedom of life rather than for a high standard of living, have been suspended, to a very large extent, in the trade unions. Far be it from me to say anything whatsoever in any way derogatory to that great movement, because, in company with the vast majority of employers in this country, I am firmly convinced that it has in the past, has now, and will have, at any rate for some time in the future, a very great work before it. I do say this, however. Individual freedom for the wage-earner can never come until, apart from any collective capital which he holds in trade unions, he has also that personal and private capital which will enable him to stand as a free man face to face with his employer and as a free man face to face with his own trade union.
  Therefore the ultimate outcome must be, if labour is to be contented and prosperous, that men must endeavour, by the exercise of self-restraint, to spend rather less than what they earn. Then only we shall have a happier state of affairs. A further benefit also arises. At present capitalists—that is to say the savers in this country, those who do the saving for the whole community—are very few in number, and those who spend all that they get are very numerous. Therefore the interest which capital gets for its share in the common task is very much out of proportion to the share which labour gets. I do not see how labour is to increase that share in proportion to what capital gets except by making

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  capital a very much more common and widely distributed thing than it is at present.
  I fear, Sir, that as a result of your kindness I have been betrayed rather beyond the immediate question, but I note that during this Debate there has been a great deal of latitude allowed. Therefore, while thanking you for your kindness, I will endeavour to keep more closely to the immediate subject. This Bill proposes to reduce the benefits under the unemployment scheme. In company with other hon. Members of this House, when that unemployment Bill was introduced, and particularly whilst it was in Committee, I certainly anticipated an amending Act of this sort at a very early date. As in the case of the Housing Acts of this Government we saw at once that each Act, as it was passed, was not a thing of itself, but one of a definite series which would continue year by year, and that possibly with increasing frequency amending Acts of this sort would be brought in. All of us who had real experience of industry know perfectly well that the actuarial calculations of the Government in respect of the Unemployment Insurance Act were not worth the paper they were written on. We know in the Standing Committee on that Bill, when Amendments were introduced which made sweeping changes in the actuarial situation, that again and again the Minister in charge came down and said, "It is all right, our actuary says it is all right." Those of us who, like myself, have some experience of business, though no definite experience of insurance work, know perfectly well that if you increase the benefits under a scheme of insurance by means of an Amendment in Committee on the Insurance Bill you must increase the premiums pro rata. This Government, with that remarkable trust in Providence which during the last two years has been their greatest, and in fact I may say their only virtue, have felt that, if they increased the benefits and did not increase the premiums, that merciful Providence would probably come to their aid as it has done before. Unfortunately, Providence was asleep in the case of Unemployment Insurance, and, unfortunately, a process which many of us watched and which all others, if they had taken the trouble to think, might have watched, has brought about a state
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  of affairs which goes beyond anything for seriousness that has been witnessed by this generation, or even by two or three generations in the past.
  The coming autumn and winter will probably, as far as human foresight can tell, be a period when unemployment will have reached proportions even worse than at this present day. It is customary, as the Minister of Labour has done this afternoon, to throw a large amount of blame upon the coal stoppage, but I would warn hon. Members not to anticipate that as soon as ever the pits begin working again and coal begins to come forward, we are even then going to have a boom in trade and general conditions of prosperity in this country. It must be remembered that the probability is that the steel and iron trades of this country will be practically in a state of suspended animation for many months to come, possibly for six or 12 months or even longer. We know that our steel makers cannot possibly compete against foreign steel makers with pig-iron at more than £5 a ton, and we know that the production of a ton of steel requires, roughly speaking, four tons of coal. We know also that on the wages basis which will probably be the result—one must touch wood under these conditions—arrived at this week, the price of coal is likely to be far above what would enable pig-iron to be made at £5 a ton. Therefore, all the hundreds of blast furnaces throughout this country and Scotland which are now blown out are hardly likely to be blown in again for many months to come.
  Under these conditions, I would ask the House not to pay too much attention to those calculations which were put before us by the Minister this afternoon. He spoke of estimates of the number of unemployed that would have to be provided for up to the end of the year. He mentioned a figure of 1,250,000 as the average, and he spoke of that figure as having been estimated. I do ask the House to remember that no calculation of any value could be made on such an assumption. In the case of life insurance, marine insurance, and fire insurance, the experience of many years has enabled actuaries to compile tables to a very small degree of error, but in the case of unemployment insurance a factor comes in which is not present in the case of any other insurance which has been dealt with on a practical basis. That factor is that

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  the mere fact of unemployment insurance being in operation in a country inevitably leads to a greater percentage of unemployment in that country. I am not referring to any frauds upon the unemployment insurance system, although there is no doubt that they exist. I do not think they are large enough to have any really important effect on the actuarial situation under this Bill. What I mean is that it has been customary, I am glad to say, for employers of labour in this country, when times have been bad and when departments of their works have not had enough work to keep their men going, to say, "Well, keep the men on, at any rate, for a week or two, and see whether things do not improve." But when you introduce a Bill like the Unemployment Insurance Bill of this Government, you at once do away with the possibility of good will on the part of the employer mitigating the unemployment evil. He feels that he has been paying these premiums for many months past, that the man himself has been paying week by week, and that as taxpayers both have been paying, Why, then, asks the employer, should he put himself to the loss of keeping men on when he has only to dismiss them and they begin to draw the benefit for which they and he have paid? Therefore any system of insurance against unemployment must inevitably lead to increased unemployment, and all these actuarial calculations fall to the ground as perfectly useless.
  I welcome this Bill, because it is part of what I think may fairly be described as a return to economc sanity on the part of the Government—or perhaps not a return, but a drift in the direction of economic sanity, because a return necessarily means that they were in a condition of economic sanity at some remote period in the past, and I am afraid there is no evidence which would really bear that out. As the House must recognise, although no speaker has yet brought it forward, it is part of a reversal of the policy of this Government, a reversal which has been forced upon them by hard facts much against their will. To yield to the criticism of hon. Member opposite, who say that one has only to spend money in order to make the works of this country prosperous, would only show that there was still a taint of that economic insanity in this Government, which has shown so
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  many signs of improvement during the last few weeks. The only thing that can make a country prosperous, and particularly a country like ours, is that through greater industry, greater skill, greater taste or greater power of organisation, it should be able to produce such commodities as the world desires better and more cheaply than its foreign competitors. We must remember that all these burdens which are put upon industry through taxation are increasing the cost of what we produce and what we sell in order to get food in return from foreign countries. Therefore, although many hon. Members opposite will think that I am of a very hard nature and almost cruel in these matters, I do say to them that it is because I hope, and in fact I know, that I need yield to no one in my claim to feeling affection for my fellow countrymen, and particularly for those wage-earners whose future appears to me to be so black—it is on that account that I take the risk of being misconstrued in my endeavour to point out certain' economic facts which must be faced sooner or later, and which the Government itself is at least attempting to face. I have listened this afternoon to the speeches of several hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who are leaders of the Labour party, and I must say that it is really pathetic to find such absolute sterility as regards ideas. They have made, in my opinion, no suggestion of the faintest practical value. We have the right hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) gently hinting that it is due to. our land system that people are unemployed, or to the fact that we are undertaking certain Imperial responsibilities abroad—responsibilities to which we are pledged—and that the money spent upon those would be far better spent in being; paid out to men who can find no work at home. Is it necessary for us on this side of the House to take all those old arguments, which we have heard so often, and go into each one and show its utter economic absurdity? I do not think so.
  Having said all these very gloomy things, I must finish on a rather more hopeful note. As hon. Members opposite know, it is only the increasing civilisation and good will of those of us who have the power to direct industry that can for the present improve the condition of the wage-earners. I would, however, ask them to remember that those who should have been the leaders of this

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  generation in industry and politics are lying scattered over the whole world in soldiers' graves, and that we who are alive to direct industry, and the directors of political life in this country, are only those who were found unworthy to make some corner of a foreign field a forever England. Therefore, many of us employers are endeavouring, as far as our wisdom will allow, to improve those conditions, and for my part I think that the only thing we can do at this present day is to show, if we can, that we are real leaders. Possibly this generation—in which I include myself—cannot have the true spirit of leadership, hut at any rate we can exercise that self-discipline which also marks men who are fit to lead. Then, perhaps, we shall be able to prepare the path for others who shall come after—better and wiser men than ourselves—who will lead mankind to a nobler and a happier future. Of this, at any rate, I am convinced, that leadership does not consist, as the Nineteenth Century people thought, in the power to acquire great political position or great material wealth, but simply in a desire to bear the greater burden and take the least reward.
  Mr. WIGNALL: It is very much like a blind man in a dark cellar trying to find a black cat when one tries to discover the solution of the problem in the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down. We have heard of the gloomy Dean, and we have read some of his remarks. We certainly have a gloomy Member in the House of Commons, and he has made us feel rather gloomy in connection with the problem that we are trying to solve. The hon. Member has a perfect right to talk to us on this side of the House as he has done this afternoon, and we are grateful to him for it. It does us a lot of good. But we do feel sometimes that if we were in the lecture hall or classroom we should probably want to throw books at his head. He throws his logic at us, but what we want to do is to solve the problem with which we are faced. The hon. Member reminds me of the case of two men whom I once saw, one of whom had fallen overboard into the sea. The other sprang after him. It was a brave and noble act, but where he made the mistake was that he dodged round the drowning man and began to lecture him on the folly of not learning to swim, telling him what a wonderful
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  science it was and how many lives it had saved. When the poor fellow was bobbing down and gulping in the water and shouting "Save me!" then at the last moment he did the heroic act and saved him. My hon. Friend has been dodging round us, telling us some things that are of value but many other things that are of no value. The one thing that he ought to tell us is how he can tell the Government to save the starving and hungry people who are engulfed in the great ocean of poverty to-day. He will have accomplished some good result if he can get over that difficulty. I do not for a moment suggest that he is a bad employer. I believe he is one of the best of employers. He has told us so himself, and we do not question his word at all. If everyone came up to his standard no doubt things would be a lot better than they are, but they do not all come up to his standard, and we have to deal with things and people as we find them.
  We must come back to the question we are dealing with to-day. We are dealing with a bombshell that was thrown unexpectedly amongst us last week. We had anticipated something coming. We did not know in what form it would arrive, but we knew something was going to happen. Whatever words I may utter in connection with this Bill, I do not want to make one unkind or disparaging remark about the conduct and the action of the Minister of Labour or his Department. I sympathise with them. They are performing a disagreeable task, one that they would gladly get rid of if they could, one that they are compelled to perform because the Cabinet, in its spirit of economy, has compelled them to reduce expenditure, and they are bound to carry out the instructions of their superiors or their colleagues, whichever you like to call them, and, whether they like it or not, they had to do something to meet the difficulty. I am not condemning them, because I believe if they had the power they would withdraw the Bill this very moment. That is my conviction. Even if you shake your head I do not believe you, because I know your great heart and your desire to help those who are in great distress.
  The Bill has three essential Clauses in it with which we have to deal. The first is that there is to be a reduction of 25 per cent. in the scale of benefits—from 20s. to

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  15s. Then we have something like a 70 per cent. increase in contributions—that is, from the 5d. that is now paid to 7d. But there is 100 per cent. increase in the waiting period, and from the standpoint of the people with whom I have lived and whom I have served and still work for, this is the greatest blow of all. The increase of the probationary period from three days to six means practically cutting out of all benefit the great mass of people who are concerned in the docks and wharves, and the labourers generally known as casual workers. They have to pay their contribution. That is deducted from their earnings, however large or small they may be. A man who is compelled to contribute ought at least to be provided with some scale of benefit. These casual labourers only work when there is work for them. They never know from Monday to Saturday night if a ship will turn up, or if the work is to go on, and if they only work half-a-day during the week, according to the Bill they cannot receive benefit.
  I submitted the other day to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour a long statement affecting the docks at Salford, which are in his constituency and which he knows all about. He knows the conditions of employment. He knows the method of employing the people, and he knows the uncertainty of the work. They were complaining that even with the three days' waiting period they were hard hit, and if that large body of men were complaining about being hard hit on a three days' probation, how much harder will it come to them on a six days' probation? So that instead of relieving the evil they are increasing it. All the conditions that apply to Salford Docks apply equally to Liverpool, London, Hull, and every port where the casual system of necessity exists. So I hope that between now and the Committee stage the hon. Gentleman will seriously look at the position, because, after all is said and done, we do not want to put one section of the community in a worse position than another. Treat them all alike. Treat them as fairly as you can. Bring them as nearly as possible to some sort of equality. If they all have to pay, give them at least a chance to get some portion of the benefit out of it, and if the three days is a hardship, as it is, the six days is doubling the burden that these people have to bear,
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  and I am sure that is not the desire now that we have pointed out how it hurts this section of the working class and others in a similar position.
  As regards the Unemployed Insurance Scheme as a whole, I took an active interest in it from its very inception. When the National Health Insurance Scheme was first mooted and Part 2 of the Act came into force, I was deeply interested in it because it was part of my duty and my work. My regret then was that so many trades were cut out. Of course I can quite understand the Government experimenting and starting with certain trades, afraid almost to move, but anxious to try it. From then till now the Unemployed Insurance Scheme has always been a financial success and has always paid its way and had a considerable reserve to trade upon, and if it had not been for the slump and this great terrible trouble that has come along it would have weathered the storm and come through successfully. Some few years ago a certain representative of the Department said to me, "The only part of the National Health Insurance Act that is a success is Part 2. It has paid its way and is building up a reserve." It is only fair that that should be known. Talking about having actuarial estimates and being safe in your scheme, people who talk in that way cannot really grasp the full meaning of it. Some of us knew that the aftermath of the War was bound to bring about the terrible state of affairs that we are in, but it is even worse than any of us thought it ever would be. Who possibly, constructing this Unemployment Insurance Scheme, could think of nearly 3,500,000 people being dealt with? Of the three points I have mentioned, the reduction in the benefit, the increase in the contribution and the waiting period, I think if nothing else can be done you ought at least to solve two out of the three. If there is bound to be an increase in contributions we must face it. But the cutting off of the 25 per cent. is too tragic a matter to be allowed to go by unchallenged, and the Government ought to try at least to enable the £1 a week to be continued until the present slump has passed by, and also to deal with the other section, the waiting period.
  We had a figure of speech brought before us earlier in the evening of the bucket and the empty well. It was a beautiful picture of the right hon. Gentle-

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  man, with his empty bucket and the empty well. He said, "You cannot fill an empty bucket out of an empty well." That is quite right, but what is the next best thing to do? Look around you for another stream or another spring that is flowing, leave your empty well, go to the running stream, and fill your empty bucket. The Government have had a lot of empty buckets to fill during the last two years. I can visualise the empty buckets that have been standing at the doors of the various Departments. Ten weeks ago there was not only an empty bucket, but an empty barrel, that had to be filled. The Government wanted to raise £1,000,000 a week to pay for a Special Defence Force that had to be called up to meet the contingency that had come upon the nation. They said, "We must call up the Reserves, and have all these people called into action. We must take over Hyde Park and commandeer road traffic." There was a big empty bucket there, but we did not hear any talk about an empty well. They took the bucket where they knew they could get it filled, and they have filled it to the extent of £1,000,000 a week.
  We had a return presented to us yesterday, in which there was reference to an Assyrian settlement, to Arabia, to Armenia, and other empty buckets. Nobody talks about an empty well. The Government simply gave us this paper containing the list of empty buckets to be filled, but we never heard a word from them yesterday about the empty well of the Exchequer. They carried their buckets joyfully and happily to the well that the right hon. Gentleman now tells us is empty, and they came away with every bucket filled. They said, "Let us dip in and fill up," and they dipped in and filled to overflowing. Surely, they ought to have left a little over, after dipping in their buckets, so that we should not have to go away empty-handed. There was another big bucket which was brought before us a couple of weeks ago, and it required a lot to fill it. It required £60,000,000 for the railways. We never heard a word about the empty well. It was, "Dip in and fill up," and if they wanted a little overplus they could have it. The bucket was filled to overflowing. It is only when we come to the toiling masses, only when we come to the men and women who are
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  the wealth producers of the nation, only when we come to the tragedy of starvation, and come to deal with the people who are the bone and sinew of the nation, that we hear of the empty bucket standing alongside the empty well. The right hon. Gentleman ought to have got a crowd around him to stop the other fellows taking all from the well, until he had got something from it on behalf of the people who are depending upon him, and waiting to be relieved from their state of poverty and suspense during this unemployment period. We have had another Supplementary Estimate, and there are many empty buckets in that Estimate. There is an empty bucket to be filled with money for sugar, another to be filled with money for corn, and other buckets to be filled for various other things—many empty buckets, but no mention about an empty well. Surely the right hon. Gentleman ought to learn something from the other Departments. Surely they ought to give him a tip as to where they get their supplies. They ought to take him kindly by the hand and say, "Come with us, brother. We know where the money well flows freely. Dip in your empty bucket, fill it up, and give something to the unemployed."
  This is a grave and serious matter, and although we may talk about it in jocular or lighter mood, yet when we look around to-day and see the great mass of suffering and poverty we feel that anything and everything that can be done must be done to help the nation through this trying period. The nation has to be saved, and it can only be saved by the means to live, and it is cheaper to save by expending money than by expending bullets Unemployment produces poverty, poverty produces desperation, desperation riot, and that is the thing we want to prevent. Why are things as quiet as they are amidst all the sorrow that is surrounding us to-day? Because everybody are getting their little bit, to enable them to tide over the present serious crisis. When you have men and women hungry and driven to desperation, and when they open their picture papers in the morning and see full-page illustrations of the Ascot races, and read about the hundred-guinea dresses, and the fifty-guinea hats, and all the vulgar display of wealth, amid the poverty of the nation, that is not going to satisfy them. That is not going to bring about contentment. That

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  is not going to solve the problem. It will aggravate it. This is the greatest tragedy that has come upon us, and any effort that the Government can put forward to prevent it ought to be made. If they have to borrow, then borrow on the strength of the future. It can be done. If they have to draw upon other resources, then get it from those who can spare it. It is better to be in debt to the nation than to have a growling, surly, discontented mob about our heels. That is what we are trying to prevent.
  Unemployment insurance is right in principle. It may have to be enlarged, and undoubtedly must be improved. It must be made more comprehensive. Everybody must be brought into it. One hon. Gentleman talked about the employer paying his contribution. He does not pay it. The workmen pays out his 7d. every week, but the employer simply asks his cashier how much the unemployment insurance amounts to. The cashier replies that it is £100, £200, or £300, and the employer replies, "Very well, make out a cheque and send it in." He puts the burden on the industry. He does not pay his 7d. as the workman has to pay. He charges it to the industry. I am not complaining about that, but I should like to see everything in its right perspective, and I should like to see everything in its right proportion. I hope that between now and the Committee stage the right hon. Gentleman will see his way clear to continue the pound payment, even if he has to continue the increased contributions.
  Major ENTWISTLE: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member in his efforts to find empty buckets. There was, however, a great deal of point in what he said. I want to say a few words why I think the proposal of the Government to reduce benefits is a mistake, and why I cannot support them in their action. I am certain that in the long run their proposal will not result in economy, and that the result will be a loss to the Government of a few more by-elections. I am the last one not to realise the very serious financial state of the country and the most urgent need for economy. That is the primary consideration to-day. In normal times the primary consideration is to get production, and plenty of it, but to-day there is no demand for our wealth when it is produced. The reason for that
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  is the extreme poverty through which the whole world is passing. We can only build up gradually by the method of strict and absolute economy. While fully, realising that, it is no good for the Government to have a policy of pure negation in these matters, cutting off expense here and expense there, but having no permanent policy to put in its place. What will be the result of these proposals as affecting the permanent policy of the Government with regard to industrial conditions? The only possible hope that, this country will ever get out of the serious financial difficulties with which it is faced is in getting harmony between; labour and capital for the purpose of reconstructing industry. It is absolutely essential to increase the wealth of the country if we are to get the better conditions which we all desire.
  8.0 P.M.
  We must increase production and reduce the cost of production. What is the way in which that can be done? My friends of the Labour party, or some of them, consider that the best way of achieving that end is by nationalisation of all industry. I know they do not all agree with that, but the official Labour policy is the nationalisation of all the means of distribution and production. I disagree with that policy. The only way in which we shall get a solution of our difficulties is by means of what has been called, co-operative production, or payment by result. You have to give labour a fuller share. You have to make them partners in the business. Give them a share in the profits, a share in the management, and representation on the board. I will go as far as you like in that direction, but it must be based on the system of giving an incentive to each worker, and that is payment by result. That is the only way by which you will get increased production. That being so, you have to persuade them of the merits of increased production. You cannot preach to a working man the benefits of production unless you give him a safeguard against the periods of temporary unemployment following increased production. I think my Labour friends will admit that some of the regulations which trade unions have had to make, for very good reasons in the past, restrict production, and that although they have been necessary in the past they are in themselves not a good thing for the country. But if you are going to deal with these

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  problems, you must give the workers a safeguard against temporary periods of unemployment. How are you going to do that? I do not, personally, believe that the right thing is to make work for people unemployed. That is the most uneconomic form of proceeding. We must, if possible, allow the free interplay of economic forces, and the only way you can have that is by providing, at any rate, a minimum means of livelihood during temporary periods of unemployment. If you do not guarantee that to the working man, you cannot expect him to increase production. That being so, what is the proposal of the Government? It is that 20s. a week is more than the minimum means of livelihood. I say that cannot commend itself to the agreement of the majority of Members who view it in an absolutely unprejudiced light. It is said that this unemployed benefit prevents people from working, and that there are a lot who, rather than work, are satisfied with the 20s. a week. I do not believe that applies to more than the very exceptional cases. The Minister of Labour frankly admitted that, and I thought his arguments in that direction were most convincing. If that is so, it simply becomes a question of what is this minimum means of livelihood.
  I have endeavoured to prove that you must provide this minimum means of livelihood. Unless you do that, you will never be able to build up a permanent structure for the future welfare of this country. If you undermine those foundations to-day, and allow the working man to say, "We have no assurance, we have no safeguard, that when bad trade comes we will be provided with what is the barest minimum means of livelihood," what hope is there of getting complete harmony between capital and labour, which is the only solution of our troubles? I say it is a most dangerous thing to interfere with this one safeguard, which, I think, is very necessary to give to the working man. Economy should have been attempted in any direction first, rather than tackle what is the most fundamental thing for building up the future prosperity of this country. I am all in favour, if you like, of increasing the contributions to make the thing a paying proposition. I am still more in favour of making unemployment insurance a charge on industry. But those are mere means of procedure. The vital thing is that you must ensure
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  to the workman a minimum means of livelihood during these temporary periods of unemployment. If anyone can say that a bare minimum is more than represented by 20s., I shall be very much surprised. With the 120 per cent. rise in the cost of living, 20s. is not more than the barest possible minimum you can provide, and I say it is most regrettable that when we hope, in a few months' time, there may be a change, when we shall desire increased production, and to get industry upon a permanent footing, and harmony between capital and labour—I say it is most unfortunate at this time that you should tamper with this one safeguard, and I sincerely trust the Government will reconsider their decision.
  Mr. R. YOUNG: I am sure those of us who sit on these Benches are deeply indebted to the Minister of Labour for the sympathetic way in which he referred to those thrown out of employment under present circumstances. I can well understand that to him it is a very disagreeable job to have to bring in this amending Bill in relation to unemployment. I was very pleased to hear the statement, in reply to a question by one of my colleagues, in relation to the engineers, and I sincerely trust some way may be found out of the present difficulty, so that the Minister's responsibilities under the unemployment scheme may not be considerably increased. This afternoon, when Questions were at an end, I asked one of my friends, not belonging to this party, the reason for the empty House when such an important question as this was being discussed. The reply came that it was Ascot Day. I do not know whether that is the reason or not for the empty House, but, at all events, I would remind my colleagues that only a fortnight ago was Derby Day, and, in spite of that, the House was crowded in relation to another matter, which, I consider, was of considerably less importance than the all-important question we are discussing to-day. The unemployment problem appears to me to be the most important problem with which this or any country has got to deal. There is only one international problem, in my estimation, which takes precedence of it in its importance, and that is the question dealing with the League of Nations or some peace Board to prevent war in the future.

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  The most important question, I say, is the unemployed problem. Yet a great many Members of this House appear to be indifferent to the great needs of many of their fellow-countrymen at the present moment. All the other problems are based on this one. So long as this problem is not solved, the attempt to solve any other problem which affects the country in relation to health and housing will not be successful, because periods of unemployment and the misery and degradation which ensue from unemployment mean to some extent the breaking down of whatever has been obtained in other directions for the good of the country. Therefore we on this side realise that this is, after all, the most important problem with which the House of Commons can deal. It is the bread and butter problem. Scientists in many directions have said that without sufficient sustenance no plant or animal can live, and it appears to me that the first essential for good citizenship, for intelligent citizenship, for physically-fit citizenship, is sufficient sustenance for the purpose of life, and on that we have to build. The Minister of Labour told us that, as a result of the unemployment, created, no doubt, as a reaction in part of the Great War, aggravated to some extent by the dispute in the coal industry, the money that was at his disposal was rapidly running out, and that he was forced under these circumstances to adopt these means to maintain the funds to such an extent as would give 15s. a week to men and a lesser sum to women who are unemployed.
  Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the psychological effect that this will have upon masses of the people of this country? Does he recognise the discontent and murmurings and distress that will be occasioned? Apart altogether from the economic point of view, it seems to me the psychological effect will be altogether to the bad. He suggests, on the other hand, that it is necessary to increase the contribution. I, for one, would be glad to see the contributions raised even higher, if we could maintain the contributions to the unemployed, because it is the duty of those who are employed, and the duty of the trade of the country as a whole to provide sufficient sustenance for their more unfortunate fellow men and women. Therefore I do not find much complaint
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  with the increased contribution which is proposed. Neither would I take great exception to the increase of the qualifying period, if I could get from the Government the 20s. a week hitherto granted. After all, I prefer that my fellow-workers should be asked to make sacrifices in the early stages for the purpose of securing better benefits for those who may be longer out of employment. Then the right hon. Gentleman proposes to abolish, for the time being, contracting-out. I regret, personally, that the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors in connection with this matter agreed to any contracting-out. I am one of those who believe that on this important question we should all stand in together. It is not right that because any particular trade happens to be in a favourable position, it should allow the fellow-workers in' other trades to bear the brunt of unemployment which comes to them through no fault of their own. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give serious consideration to the question of not going back to contracting-out until he has evolved a scheme whereby each industry might become responsible for its own unemployed. I am not prepared to defend a scheme for particular industries being responsible for their own unemployed without a general scheme dealing with the problem as a whole, because there again the trades which are most economically safe should, in some measure, contribute to the other industries of the country in this matter. So, from that point of view, I trust the right hon. Gentleman will consider not returning to the contracting-out in so far as this problem of unemployment is concerned.
  I said that the first essential of citizenship was sufficient sustenance. If you grant that, then you must readily grant that 15s. is not sufficient for that purpose, and that you have no right under those circumstances merely to look at this question from an actuarial point of view. We have to deal with it on broad, general principles. It is an ethical question for all of us, and a fundamental principle that, before any man has too much, every honest, willing worker should have enough. When I remember that this reduction to 15s. is brought to our notice about the same time that we are told the Wages Boards in other directions are to go, and when I hark back for a little while and remember in this House we

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  were dealing with a question of £4,000,000,000 War profit, which the right hon. Gentleman's Government refused in any way to touch, then I cannot help saying that it does seem, although I am not endorsing in every respect what was said from the Front Bench, that in some of these great money questions those who have are being preserved and those who have not are made to suffer on every possible occasion. The Prime Minister on one occasion eloquently referred to an A 1 Empire with a C 3 population. You cannot have anything else than a C 3 population on 15s. a week. Men who are thrown out of Work have from childhood received very little more than sufficient to meet their daily needs when they work. Some of them have had to struggle hard to be members of their trade unions, and it is to their credit that they are such loyal members and pay in not so much for personal advantage as for communal good. As long as we do not tackle this problem and give the worker, out of employment through no fault of his own, enough for the purposes of life, we shall continue to perpetuate in this country the C 3 population, which very nearly cost us the War.
  It is all very well to tell us that we will have a better country. We have seen no signs of it up to the present. This will come as a severe blow to many who gave their best in work or other service to the country during the War period. I would remind those on the other side who refer to what they call the "dole policy" that the hardest day's work an honest man has got to do is not the work in an engineering shop or a smithy or anywhere else, but it is to get up in the morning and go round until night time unable to find in this supposedly civilised land a day's work. It is demoralising to men. It creates physical unfitness and probably mental and moral degeneration as well. One of the things we expected from the Government was that this problem of unemployment would be dealt with in such a way that this decline in physical stamina and mental advancement would be prevented, yet we are continually hearing about the dole policy.
  I thank my right hon. Friend for rebuking—at all events, it was very near a rebuke—those who talk about workers
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  getting the dole when they would otherwise not be out of work. As he very justly said, work is not to be found for thousands of men who want work at the present moment. There is no dole. You would think it was a free gift from the State to hear some hon. Gentlemen on the other side talking The worker pays his quota into the Insurance Fund, and a certain amount comes from employers, which is, for all practical purposes, a part of the wages of the worker. There is not the least doubt that, from the employer's point of view, these funds are regarded simply as another addition to wages, and, in any case, they have been produced by the workers. The total amount which we have received since the inception of this scheme has not been so many millions, so that whatever has come from the Stats has not been an exceptionally large amount. I therefore protest strenuously against the suggestion that the workers are looking for doles or receive doles as if they did not contribute the amount which goes into the fund.
  The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) in one of those interesting speeches which he occasionally gives the House, which left some of us quite unconvinced, attempted to show that the more that was paid in unemployment benefit the more unemployment there would be. One of my hon. Friends behind me remarked, "Take it away and we shall all be at work." I think that the logic is with my hon. Friend. The workers, when they received the £1 a week, spent it, and it went in making a demand for the necessaries of life which kept other people at work. You would think that the money paid as insurance benefit was thrown away, that it was taken out of' the capital of industry and squandered foolishly. The fact is that what is wrong with the country to-day is that many of the workers have not got enough money to buy the things that are necessary, and thereby create a demand for the necessary commodities of life. The more that is done in that direction the better for the country and certainly for the home industries of the country, and if the small shopkeepers were aware of their own interests they would take a different view of these questions from that which they are led to take by hon. Gentlemen on the other side.

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  It is with regret to the party on this side that after two and a half years of peace the British House of Commons is asked to reduce the amount of unemployment benefit. It indicates clearly that we have made no real attempt to settle the problem of unemployment on right lines. I agree that it is essential to a solution of this problem that the workers should be more and more taken into the councils of industry, and that they themselves should have a say in determining the conditions under which they work, so that they may be able to make arrangements for these periods such as we are passing through just now. I am all for agreement between employers and employed to try to solve the problem of unemployment either in the factories or in industry as a whole. I feel certain that until we direct our energy into some other channel, quite apart from supplying benefits through the State or other means, we will fail to deal justly with this great problem of unemployment.
  I return to the remark which I made at the beginning. This is the most important problem with which this country has to deal. Upon it we must build up the new country of which, unfortunately, up to this moment we see no sign. We have got to build up a new state of society, in which everyone will find all through the industry in which he is employed sufficient for the purposes of life including the days when he is unemployed. I believe that in the workers and employers sitting down together as partners in industry, not from the financial point of view, but from the point of view of fellow workers in the industry, the solution of these problems will be found. One set of people give their money. The other set give their labour. Labour is the capital of the worker. It is right that he should have his share in the directing energies of the particular industry in which he is employed. If he had that, if the employers and the employed put their cards on the table and entered into consultation with each other for the purpose of making industry a success, not merely in their own interests, but in the interests of the community, I have no doubt that a great deal would be done to tide us over the difficulties that crop up with recurring periods of unemployment. It is with very great regret that we find the House now discussing a
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  reduction of this benefit, of which the worker stands in great need. Psychologically it will have a disturbing effect generally, and it will add considerably to the misery and discomfort, and perhaps the agony of a great many deserving people who would be glad to work if only work could be found for them.
  Sir W. BARTON: I am glad to have an opportunity of expressing the reasons which will direct my vote. I listened with the greatest interest to the Mover of this Amendment. With much that he said I find myself in total disagreement, but with the Amendment itself, after the most careful deliberation, I find myself in complete agreement. The right hon. Gentleman visualised this nation at the present time as an enormously wealthy nation—the richest nation in the world, he said. He seemed to think that nothing but the hardness of heart of the capitalist Government of the day prevented a wide diffusion of general well-being and comfort. I do not think that that is so. I take the rather sombre view that this nation is in a more serious, indeed in a more dangerous, financial and economic position than ever it has been in its long history. I look at the great industries of the country. We know the state of the coal industry. Iron and steel works are for the present largely closed down and the gulf between the cost of production and the possible selling price is apparently at present almost unbridgeable. The great cotton industry about which I know perhaps more, was, up to the stoppage of ten days ago, running an average of only two days a week. What does all that mean? To me it seems quite clear that this country at present is living on its capital. Herein comes the question for me, and I think the question which we all have to face—has not the worker some right, in a period such as this, in the capital reserve of the country? In my judgment the answer is that he undoubtedly has such a right. That is the ground on which I support the Amendment.
  I cannot imagine that the condition in which we now are can last long. It must end in one of two ways—either a financial crash such as has never been known in the history of the world, or, what I believe to be infinitely more probable, a return to that prosperity and that steady work, to that co-operation between em-

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  ployers and employed which brought us to the position we had attained before this ghastly War dissipated so much of our wealth. But when all these questions are considered, I feel sure that there is another element to bring to the consideration of the Amendment, and that is the human element. We are all together in this awful crisis. We are living on our capital. Surely the small unemployment pay that was given was, after all, a very small modicum of what is necessary for any family to live upon in the humblest way. If ever there was a time when a nation might be expected to be knit together in bonds of human brotherhood and consideration one for another, that is just the period in which this nation is now. I cannot help feeling a rather deep regret that the Prime Minister is away and ill at the present time, because, although I am in whole-hearted opposition to the Government, I realise that probably no man has vindicated, and, indeed, put into operation, the needs of the human element in our society to a greater degree than he has done.
  I would appeal now, strongly and earnestly, to the Government to reconsider their position and to consider whether they will not accept the Amendment. I know that if we simply discuss it on the state of the Insurance Fund we have no case. I know there will be arguments on the side of political economy. I am not going to take up the time of the House with them. There will be little difficulty even on that ground of justifying this Amendment. The Mover of the Amendment spoke of the condition of things under which, during the period when the works were not operating, the horses were fed and groomed and looked after. I deplored the simile. I thought it most unfortunate. From that the deduction clearly is that, even on the cold ground of political economy, it is desirable that all of us, working whether by hand or brain, should be kept in a state of fitness for the condition of busyness and prosperity which must come or this nation is ruined. For all those reasons I support the Amendment.
  Mr. MYERS: There are two concessions in connection with this question which I hope we shall persuade the Minister to make. The first is in the direction of restricting the waiting period. Having regard to the fact that we have
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  had such a long period of unemployment, for persons to have to wait six days before they receive any benefit is altogether unjust, notwithstanding the amount of benefit they may be paid. Further, I suggest the desirability of effecting a change in the waiting method. No one who is acquainted with our industrial towns and has seen the queues standing at the Employment Exchanges, places which have been improvised for the handling out of benefit, can fail to be alarmed at the condition of things. Without enlarging upon the matter, I may say that nothing but fine weather and sunshine prevented rioting in many of our industrial towns. The conditions which prevailed would not have been tolerated in circumstances less desirable from the climatic point of view.
  None of the Members on these Benches would suggest that the payment of unemployment benefit is any remedy for unemployment, but we join issue with the case as presented by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) when he said that every time benefit was drawn it was a contribution towards more unemployment. I think the answer to that has been well put by the hon. Member who said that the money received in these benefits goes back in the direction of purchasing power and into those agencies of industry which tend to increase the necessity for more work being done. The bulk of the expenditure of our working-class population, whether it is of money received in wages, in old age pensions, or in unemployment benefit, goes to a greater extent into the channels of reproductive trade than any other expenditure in society at the present time. Is the Minister sure that some of the conclusions upon which he bases his case justifying a reduction in this benefit are altogether sound? I have here a report of a Committee representing about seven organisations connected with the working-class movement in the country—the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress, the Labour party, the Co-operative Union, and similar bodies They have been investigating details m regard to the cost of living, and they very definitely challenge the index figure submitted by the Ministry of Labour. They say that the proper index figure representing the actual cost of living to-day is higher, and that wages based thereon would be 7s. a week higher than

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  they are at the present time. They tell us they are going to issue a proper official report which will indicate what in their judgment is the real cost of living as compared with the figures presented in the weekly table of the Ministry of Labour.
  I was interested in the point of view put forward by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Fildes) when he said that the benefit should be maintained at the present level, at least to those people who were married and had children dependent upon them. That suggests a principle which is not without advocates upon this side of the House and has been heard of in other quarters. Many hold that we have come to the period when we should have something in the nature of what is termed the family wage. At present when a person seeks employment at a factory, the owner or employer does not ask him how many children has he, or what are his domestic responsibilities. He is looked at from the point of view of his physical fitness, and whether he is young, old, or middle-aged, single or married, there is a standard rate of pay for him quite irrespective of his responsibilities. There is something to be said in respect of the gospel of the family wage, and more will be said in future. I urge the Minister of Labour, if he can make no other concession, to consider the desirability of retaining the benefits for those people who have certain domestic responsibilities on the lines I have indicated.
  Reference has been made to the Government's contribution towards the creation of the evil with which we are now trying to deal. The Government cannot evade its responsibility. The discussions we have been having in this House during the past two days lead us to believe that another step is going to be taken, not towards the cure of this evil but in the direction of emphasising it. The limitation of exports by taxation must inevitably curtail employment in the country, and we are entitled to ask the Government, if they are anxious to reduce the volume of unemployment, why they should not adopt a policy which will at least keep in work the people who are employed at the present time? The key industries proposals now under the consideration of the House will only accentuate the problem of unemployment all along the line by throwing people out of work who are employed
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  now. We are entitled to ask the Government to turn its attention in another direction. We had an Education Act in 1918, and we understood it was going to be put into operation in its entirety by January of this year. Recently some of the provisions of this Act have been cancelled or, at any rate, they are not going to be put into operation. One of those provisions raised the age for leaving school from 14 to 16. Children are now leaving our elementary schools at the age of 14 at the rate of 50,000 a week, and every child of 14 who leaves school is at once a competitor in the labour market of the country. We are turning 50,000 children on to the labour market every week and throwing them into competition with their own parents, a large proportion of whom are unemployed as it is. Surely that policy needs reversing in these days.
  A good deal has been said about the sentimental side of this question and about the promises made to the workers of the country during the War. I do not propose to go into that extensively. We know what we were told was going to be done for the people who saved the country in those days. In the past the provision of unemployment benefit very largely depended upon our trade union movement. The inauguration of unemployment benefit, through the medium of a State Department, is a departure from the old-time practice of trade union responsibility. Apart from the responsibility which the State has accepted, the trade unions of the country have not altogether abandoned the old practice, and we are in this position at the present time, that unemployment has been so acute that trade unions in the country who invested their funds in War Loan stock have had to sell out at a great disadvantage. Only within the past few days a trade union official told me that on two or three occasions his union had had to borrow large sums of money for the payment of out-of-work benefit. I believe there are quarters, I will not say in this House, where that is a matter of satisfaction and rejoicing. Because they look upon our trade unions as an evil thing, the poorer they are the better, but that is a view that we do not hold. The safety of industry in the future, the relationship between employers and employed, and the well-being of the community whole will be assisted by a

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  strong, active, healthy trade union movement. On the other side, the development of the trusts and the syndicates has brought a spirit of commercialism into this country that is going to take our trade union movement all its time to meet, and all the resources of our trade unions in future, unless they get more Government assistance than they have done in the past, to deal with the vicious intricacies of the concentration of capital, are going to be needed, not in disbursing unemployed benefits, but in bringing together a defensive fund in order to meet the onslaught of organised capital in this direction. It is desirable, not only in the interests of the workers, but of the country as a whole, that the mass of unemployed men should be non-existent.
  We have had upstairs this afternoon a meeting of the Council of the League of Nations, and we have had there a report given to us from a representative of the International Labour Organisation that in Germany a universal eight-hours' day has been put into operation. It was also stated by a Member of this House who attended that gathering that in addition to the fact that a universal eight-hours' day has been applied, there is not a single unemployed man in Germany. Germany lost the War. We understood they were broken economically, that they had lost a tremendous number of their most effective and able workers, and that Germany was broken financially. Germany has lost her army, her fleet is at the bottom of the sea, yet they have gone one better than we have and adopted the principle of a universal eight-hours' day, while there is not an unemployed man in the country. That is what they say, but I was not aware of those facts. If it can be done in Germany so soon after the War, it ought not to be outside the range of possibility to get the same thing done here. When we hear that the financial structure of this country is in danger, it is due to the fact that the capital of this country is not fluid but fixed; it is in mills and factories, in collieries, and railways, and the like, and the country cannot flourish unless labour is applied to that fixed capital and it is enabled to produce those things that are required, not only for the sustenance of our own people, but as marketable commodities elsewhere. Unless labour is permitted to assist the wheels of industry to turn, all such things
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  as interests and profits are non-existent. This evening and to-morrow the working-men of the country who are out of employment, with plenty of time on their hands, will be sitting round our bowling greens and cricket pitches in the North of England and, when dusk comes along, in their working-men's clubs, and they will be reading in the newspapers of the glories of Ascot, of the champagne which has been consumed, of the mountains of empty bottles that are there, and of the great flourish of society on the race course, and in the next column of the newspaper it will be pointed out to them that this House has had under discussion to-day the question of the Unemployed Benefit.
  Alongside the glories of Ascot they will read that their Unemployment Benefit has been reduced a few shillings a week, and we must not in the circumstances complain about an undesirable spirit showing itself in the minds of our working class population. One of the tragedies of this period is a passive characteristic which has taken hold of the community, and where it is not a passive spirit, it is a spirit of callousness on the other side, and I think the outlook for the country in future is not at all rosy. In a period of crisis such as that through which the country is passing, to have a callousness to human suffering on the one hand and a passive spirit on the other is foreign to everything we have known in the British temperament in days gone by, and it does not speak well for what is coming in the future. The average workman believes, and I believe, that if a man is denied the opportunity for employment, the bringing of his energy into relationship with his needs, he still has a moral right to live, and there are Scriptural injunctions which give at least some moral backing to that point of view. The ill effect from an economic point of view of having the best labour power in the country walking the streets unemployed is well understood by the Members of this House. We talk about the difficulty of meeting the financial responsibility of the Unemployment Act, but the Government seem to be able to find money for anything in destructive avenues. There is money enough for Ireland and for Mesopotamia. Suppose we spent, as capital expenditure in schemes of reproductive work, the bill for one year which is necessary for the Army and Navy, what a great benefit must come.

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  It is only in November of last year that the Prime Minister himself, in a speech at Llandudno, said, "We must have more production. We must have more work, everybody must produce to his utmost." There are a few million men in the country who are to-day anxious, ready, and willing to carry out that injunction and they are not permitted to do it. Something has slipped in the operation, and no remedy is to be found either in the direction of paying unemployed men 15s., 20s., or 30s. a week. The unemployed man does not want it. The unemployed man wants a job. He wants to maintain his self-respect. He wants to maintain his independence. The average: working-man wants to fulfil a useful function in society. He does not want to go down to the bowling-green in the middle of the week. He likes to go on the Saturday afternoon, and he gets all the more pleasure out of it by virtue of the fact that he has done a reasonable and a decent week's work. That is the ideal of the average British workman. No contribution in this matter that falls short of making that possible is any good in these days. Let those critics like the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) wail and cry. I suppose most hon. Members have at least dabbled in economics—Mill, Marx, and Marshall—I have read them; I have sampled Adam Smith and Ricardo, and I never came across any economic doctrine that fitted in with the creed of the hon. Member for Mossley. I regret that he went out of the House after he had given us that lecture; similar to what we have had from him in other days. We shall not find a solution on that tack. There is something broken down in the country. What has broken down has got to be patched up. The simple solution of this question is to bring the energy of the people and the needs of the people into the closest possible relationship.
  There has never been a time in the history of this country when we had more wool. Yet mills by the score are standing idle. Weavers by the thousand are walking the streets. The price of cloth is still soaring to a figure which prevailed in War days. If there is anything in the economic law of supply and demand, if we can bring the energy to which I have referred to machinery to provide for the needs of the people, and to provide that cloth that everybody requires at a cheaper rate than it is at the present
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  time, well and good; the solution of this problem lies in that direction. Unemployed benefit, undesirable though it is, should be maintained at a higher figure than it is at the present time, and there is no justification for reducing it. The unemployed man had a claim upon the community if he is to be denied the use of his energy. When everything has been said that can be said in justification of that policy the ultimate solution of this problem can only be found along the lines I have indicated. If private enterprise and commercialism have broken down; if they are unable to provide for the needs of the community; if they are unable to organise the energy of the community it is time for them to get out of the way and allow something more desirable to take their place.
  9.0 P.M.
  Mr. MOSLEY: My hon. Friend who has just sat down was right, in my view, when he said that something had broken down. Something has broken down in this country. For my part, I go further, and say that something has broken down in the world. The world machinery has broken down. That must be remedied before we can find a solution to this problem. The Government come to-day with yet another suggestion, one more artificial expedient involving a profound hardship; another artificial expedient to meet a profound economic condition. We are faced with a whole series of debates of this kind, with a procession of proposals of artificial expedients, of temporary patchwork from the Government till they decide to dig right down to the economic causes which underlie the situation of to-day, and which are entirely responsible, not only for the miseries that prevail in this country, but the miseries throughout the world. My hon. Friend went to the root of the matter when he pointed out that the whole world to-day is crying out for goods. There is a universal demand for commodities. The labour of this country has been the recipient of most fervent appeals by the Government and from every quarter to produce more to satisfy the demands of the post-War period. Yet in spite of the demand which undoubtedly exists not only in the world, but also in this country, we find ourselves in this remarkable, this absurd, position of widespread unemployment and distress.

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  I have before stated my view on this question in common with other Members. It is peculiarly apposite to this problem, as it is, in fact, the fundamental cause that underlies this problem. It is no use tinkering with external evidence of economic conditions. You must dig down to the root-cause of the trouble and base yourself upon the rocks of economic reality. You must once again build up the economic structure upon a sound foundation. What is the cause of the trouble to-day? The cause is that half the world has been ruined. Half the world is not working. Half the world is unable to buy goods which this country is in a position to offer. That is the first, the primary, the fundamental cause of unemployment in this country to-day. What a reflection upon statesmanship! It has always seemed to me that history will indict the statesmanship of the post-War period more severely upon this score than upon almost any other—that nearly three years after the cessation of hostilities we should still find ourselves in the same lamentable position that marked the end of 1918. No effort at all has been made by the collective wisdom of the statesmen of Europe to remedy this condition of things. Three years after the event we find ourselves immersed in the industrial catastrophe of to-day. We hear vague rumours of active steps to remedy the cause of the calamity. We hear rumours of an international loan, of some definite and co-ordinated attempt to restore the European credit system and set at work once again these devastated countries so that they can produce commodities to exchange for ours; once again to set in motion, in the time-honoured phrase, "the wheels of European industry," and to restore the free flow of commerce and the commodities essential to our various countries throughout the European system. But it is three years too late. This work should have been undertaken at Versailles. Eminent Gentlemen concerned themselves more with the delineation—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member is getting a little wide of the point. It is quite open to him to refer generally to the causes of unemployment, but I do not think he can go back to what happened at Versailles.
  Mr. MOSLEY: I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I was merely trying to trace the root of the trouble which prevails to-day and. to allocate the responsibility. The allocation of responsibility, however, is not very popular as a Parliamentary pursuit in these days, and it is a role which it is difficult to maintain in this House. At present, anyway, it is this condition that obviously is responsible for the bulk of our troubles at the moment. Whether or not this work could have been undertaken three years ago—and I am convinced personally that then was the right time to undertake it—if there is a remedy so late in the day, it is this: To set to work at once upon the business of European reconstruction. The time-honoured principle has found utterance even on the Treasury Bench that "good Christianity is in the nature of good business," and the right procedure to-day is to restore those countries; to provide them with the raw material requisite for their industries; once again to restore the economic system of Europe. This is the first step towards the restoration of employment and prosperity in this country.
  There is, however, another cause underlying our present difficulty. Many of our markets are, of course, closed through the effects of the War, and through our subsequent failure to restore those markets to their pristine prosperity. There are other markets which to-day should be open to this country, but we find ourselves unable to compete in them owing to the high cost of production. I know it is the custom of hon. Members opposite to hurl at those who sit on the Labour Benches their accustomed taunts to the effect that it is all their fault. That is a contention which I desire very strongly to resist. It is fantastic to allege that the cause of the high cost of production can be laid solely at the door of Labour.
  The first responsibility for the high cost of production is of course the excessive taxation under which the country labours. This is a direct charge upon business, and it results in the higher cost of production. That is the very first cause which is largely attributable to the adventures which we have undertaken in various parts of the world. No less than £100,000,000 have been squandered in Russia. Yesterday we voted another £27,000,000, and there are innumerable other items and commitments of this kind being undertaken in

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  various parts of the world at a time when we are still staggering under the effects of the great War, which has resulted in an oppressive and impossible taxation in this country. All this has militated more than anything else against our trade. The money acquired by taxation is squandered on unproductive objects and consequently vicious and uneconomic circles continue ad nauseam.
  Again, the fresh capital which should be available annually for the replenishment of industry and for the starting of new enterprises is also absorbed in taxation. Before the War it was estimated that some £400,000,000 a year floated back into industry as capital through the savings of the community. To secure an equivalent annual replenishment of capital we should need £900,000,000 today. Does anybody contend that that sum is available to-day? At a moment when more than any other time in our financial history it is imperative that fresh capital should be forthcoming from savings for the initiation of fresh enterprises and the replenishment of capital, that money is being absorbed in taxation, which in turn is being squandered by the State in enterprises which are quite unproductive. Consequently, our country is handicapped in markets which were previously open to us by excessive expenditure, resulting in oppressive taxation. The markets of half the world are now closed to this country through the policy which we have adopted.
  Before the War Germany was our second best customer. Under the present policy when does the Government imagine that our trade with Germany will be restored to us? On the one hand, we read of the exaction of immense indemnities from Germany, and on the other hand we set up barriers against her trade which are every day preventing her recovery and grinding her down into a financial abyss. You cannot have it both ways. You must either make, up your mind to make Germany pay or push her down into the mud. It is unlikely under these conditions that Germany will be a purchaser of the commodities we have to offer. I trust I have not strayed outside your ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I wish to assert that it is this policy which is primarily responsible for our difficulties to-day.
  In comparison with the widespread effects of these blunders abroad and our mistakes at home, such things as the
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  effects of the coal strike and other industrial disputes, serious as they are, pale into insignificance. It is, first of all, our blunders in policy which are responsible for the position in which we find ourselves. In listening to the appeals of hon. Members from these Benches, who are so well qualified to speak of the condition in which these unfortunate people are trying to keep a family on 15s. a week, it went to my heart to think of £100,000,000 being spent in Russia supporting a mere adventure. That is a reflection which should weigh heavily upon the spirit of Englishmen. It is very difficult in regard to these adventures abroad—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now referring to matters which happened years ago, and he cannot argue that all these things are connected with this Measure.
  Mr. MOSLEY: It is difficult when you find our industrial system in a state of collapse to address oneself to a remedy. The Government, having produced this great havoc, try to confound their opponents by asking for their remedies. This always reminds me of a gentleman who has been so unfortunate as to administer a dose of poison to his wife, and when the policeman ventures upon the tradititional remonstrance, he claims that no one should take any action without putting forward some suggestion for the revival of the corpse. That is my view of the attitude of the Government, and I confess that the corpse is so far gone that it is difficult to suggest a remedy.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot dwell on possible remote causes. I must invite him to address himself to remedies.
  Mr. MOSLEY: I bow at once to your ruling, and I come to the remedy which I have to suggest. I have ventured to detail what I consider, in my opinion to be the causes underlying this trouble. Firstly, the dislocation of Europe, and, secondly, the excessive taxation prevailing in this country. My first remedy is that the Government should at once initiate the steps suggested at the Brussels Conference which have been adumbrated from the Treasury Bench by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was President of the Board of Trade, for the restoration of European credit and the reconstruction of inter-

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  national trade. The first and best method of securing that which we all desire, employment in this country, is to press on these reconstruction efforts which are now being discussed. The second method, upon which I will not dwell, is the remission of excessive taxation which to-day overburdens industry in this country by a wise balanced, sober foreign policy. With regard to the permanent question of unemployment, a question which will always remain with us in a certain degree under the present system even in times of prosperity, may I say a very few words? Unemployment under a system of private enterprise is bound to exist. I am a great believer in that system within limits, but it must be radically amended from its present condition, and I think so amended it would be preferable to any alternative. Under that system a certain amount of unemployment is bound to exist owing to occasional changes in the direction of demand. A great industry which may be prospering at one period, owing to the demand for the commodities which it is producing, may find that demand change, because men develop different tastes, and the industry may decline, and in the temporary period before the absorption of the workers in other industries which may be created by a new demand those workers will suffer unemployment. There are other factors also which render unemployment virtually a corollary of the system of private enterprise. If that system is to survive at all it must meet this problem of unemployment, and in my view steps should have been initiated long ago by which any of the great industries could have devised schemes for their own unemployed. Schemes of that sort are constantly being propounded, but the time for the Government to put them into practice is not now. It should have been done in the boom which preceded the depression now facing us, but then the Government did nothing; now it is too late, and the whole burden is likely to be thrown on the finances of the country.
  I come to the scheme by which each industry might support its own unemployed. Industries do and may decline, and consequently if the whole burden of unemployment is flung on the declining industry, it precipitates its collapse. Collaterally with any such scheme, you must have some covering
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  scheme of State insurance, and I believe it is in a combination of the two ideas—a combination of the idea by which each industry supports its own unemployed and a conception of universal State insurance—it is only by such a combination that you can meet the exigencies of the unemployment problem. That the problem should be met is one of the most vital and imperative necessities of the day. You cannot expect a man to work properly and to give of his best if he sees that at any moment he may be thrown into the maelstrom of unemployment. Nobody expects it. Every economic fallacy is liable to obtrude itself naturally into the minds of workers, and with such a fear hanging over them they arrive at the erroneous conception in large numbers that by working less they can provide employment for many. That is a conception which all who have studied economic problems know to be fallacious. But it is a very natural conception to those who have not addressed themselves deeply to these problems or have not had an opportunity of studying them, and it is a conception which will prevail and will jeopardise our industrial recovery and after recovery the future of this country unless you can remove it from the minds of the workers. You must get rid of their fear of unemployment, and it is worth a considerable outlay to do it. It is worth almost anything to remove from the mind of the worker the fear of unemployment and to persuade him to give of his best. I see no prospect of immediate relief except at the public expense, but I hope that the Government will produce some comprehensive scheme for the remedy of these evils in the future and for removing from the mind of the worker the fear which has haunted him through so many generations.
  Mr. JOHN MURRAY: I shall make no attempt—
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present. House counted; and 40 Members being present—
  Mr. J. MURRAY: I shall not make attempt to follow the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) in the evasive and rhetorical generalities to which he has treated the House, but I propose to give consideration to the very painful question which

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  faces us to-night, a question so painful and so difficult that it might well sadden even the youngest and most voluble Members in this Assembly. The question we have to deal with is, what we are going to do with the millions of unemployed people in this country at this time? They face us, seeing the present unemployed benefit of £1 threatened by the Minister of Labour with a reduction to 15s. These are not the first weeks of their unemployment. They must, through all the past weeks of their unemployment have been eking out the benefit of the £1 from their other resources, whatever those resources may be, probably slender. The reduction from 20s. to 15s. at this stage is a much severer blow than it would have been three, months ago. I should like, for my part, although I realise the difficulties, to appeal to the Minister of Labour to readjust his scheme so as to keep the benefit at 20s. per week by making changes in other directions. I know perfectly well that that amounts to this: That those who are out of work are still going to receive a relatively large benefit at the expense of those who are in work. Cooperation always means that certain people who do something pay for certain people who do not It is a useful principle, and it can be used up to a certain point. I should like to appeal to the Minister of Labour to consider again whether the temper and the moral of the country are not such that those who have the good luck to be in work, and in paying work, at this time would not, with some willingness, pay an even larger contribution in order to maintain the unemployed benefit for those who are unemployed at the present not very high figure.
  In a general way I should like to suggest that in the recent extensions of Unemployment Insurance one felt that perhaps the Government was actuated too much by an optimistic spirit; that is to say, they expected that, without any substantial raising of the contributions, they would be enabled on a large scale to pay enlarged benefits to very greatly increased numbers In this, as we can all see now—even the prophets—they were wrong. Their optimism was misjudged. I do not feel quite certain that their pessimism at the present moment is not also a little misjudged and exaggerated, and that with more trust in the general system of things,
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  a trust that on previous occasions in dealing with this question they showed a great deal of, they might maintain the benefit at something like its present figure, and make a provision that will make that arrangement solvent. While I say that, I realise the difficulties under which we labour through the rigid inflexibility of our system. We have a flat rate which is well adjusted in certain cases, and is not well adjusted to a great many other cases. I would like to suggest that the Government might consider certain Continental variations of insurance policy, and particularly the case in Switzerland, where unemployment benefit is varied according to two things: firstly, the number of dependents which the workman has, and, secondly, the condition of the locality in which he lives. Switzerland is divided into three groups; some towns and country districts are regarded as being ordinarily cheap to live in, others are regarded as dear, and others again as cheap. Thereby by differentiating according to family responsibilities and the actual expense of living in different localities, the Swiss benefit is made to adjust itself with some considerable refinement to the needs of those who receive it. I do not think that this is the only matter in which such a principle would be of use in this country. In 1904–5, and again in 1912, the Statistical Department of the Board of Trade made an investigation which brought out quite specific differences in the cost of living in a number of towns. That work was not done for purely academic and scientific reasons, but in order to help the Postmaster-General in his attempts to suit the wages of his manipulative staff according to the cost of living in the various towns. In that case, I believe, the classification took the same lines as in Switzerland, namely, that the whole country was divided into three classes.
  So much for the general point. On the specific point that is before us, I appeal to the Government to consider whether, by increasing the contributions still further or having recourse to their old optimism, they cannot maintain the benefit at 20s. It is impossible to debate this question without passing on to the rather more general question of the whole causation of unemployment and the slightly less general question of the causation of the present unemployment from which the country is suffering. The things which

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  seem to be mostly to be a defence against unemployment are, firstly, the education of the working classes, about which I will say nothing to-night, and secondly, the maintenance of industrial peace. I do not wish to question the right to strike, but I want to suggest that a strike is a luxury, and that those who indulge in striking have sooner or later to pay for their luxury. The point is certainly simple. I shall try not to seem to be giving a lecture in putting it in two sentences. If a large body of men strike they lose their wages, as purchasers they are infinitely weakened, the demand for the commodities they use daily and weekly goes down, and all those who live by manufacturing or providing those commodities feel at once the onset of unemployment. Be they capitalists, business men, or workmen, they are struck indirectly by the extension of unemployment among them through the striking of their fellows, perhaps in some other town or industry, but at all events within the borders of this country. Unemployment is a thing which everybody has it in his power in part to ward off. If everybody, if every group of purchasers and every group of workmen, would realise that by striking themselves they the bringing unemployment upon the people who ordinarily supply them with the commodities of life; if they would realise that through the present situation in England, I think a movement in favour of industrial peace as the best security against unemployment would gather weight.
  While on the subject of industrial peace, I would like to make one more point, which was suggested to me by the hon. Member for the Newton Division of Lancashire (Mr. E. Young). He pinned his faith to conferences, frank and loyal conferences, between capital on the one hand and labour on the other. That seems to suggest that what is wanted is a reconciliation of persons, of a person on the one hand with money and of a person on the other side with merely the labour of his hands. That seems to me to be an extremely equivocal suggestion. So long as all the money is on one side and what appears to be all the work on the other, you may have all the conferences you like, but you will never get a lasting peace. It is not a reconciliation of
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  persons that is wanted, but a reconciliation of two functions in each person. What we want is that every man, in his place and in his measure, should be a capitalist, should have some savings; and that every man, in his measure and according to his capacity, should be a worker. Among the working classes at the present moment there is an idea, for which I admit they have some excuse, that saving is the business of the richer classes, and is no concern of theirs. So long as they embrace that fallacy, there will never be peace in industry, because there can never be peace in industry until both the parties concerned in it have money in it and devote their work to it. I should like to urge that upon the party opposite. Whitley Councils are good, conciliation is good, round table conferences are good; but the reconciliation of persons is very often just a temporary patching up of a bad peace. The only thing that will provide a solid foundation is a reconciliation of these two functions, namely, that of saving money and laying it by and investing it, and that of working, in everyone who shares in the dividend of the nation's work to-day.
  Mr. CLYNES: I regret very much that, from one cause or another, since my right hon. Friend (Mr. Hodge) moved his Amendment, the attendance in the House has not created in the minds of many of us any feelings of hopefulness as to what the result will be when this issue is tested in the Lobbies of the House to-night. The result, no doubt, will be that many scores of Members who have never heard a word of all that has been said from this side of the House in the form of appeal, argument, suggestion, warning, will troop into the Lobby and record an immense majority against everything that has been said, not a word of which they have heard. There are occasions when the House of Commons fails in its duty, and in face of the situation outside this House, and of the need which has forced the Government again to deal with the unemployment problem, it is a matter for the greatest regret that so little attention has been given to this very pressing and very menacing situation. We have often been reminded that this is not the occasion on which we can deal with the causes, though I think the House has not suffered so far as certain causes have been adumbrated and outlined. It is of some assistance to

  541
  be reminded of the causes. It may incline us to turn to the lessons of those causes, and to avoid, in future years, producing such conditions of unemployment as undoubtedly has been produced by the causes to which reference has been made. Nor will any immediate purpose be served by referring to the defects of existing insurance law. It is no reproach to the Minister of Labour to point out now that his last amending Bill has not met the situation. No one could foresee that situation. No one ever calculated three months ago that the number of unemployed would be as large as it is now. No one then foresaw the duration and extent in effect of the miners' stoppage. We are faced, however, with the results of unforeseen events, and I want to approach the Bill which has been submitted in relation to these results; and to the realities which now confront the country.
  The explanation of this Bill is simple. It is that there has been produced in the last 10 weeks such a degree of unemployment as to have submerged altogether the financial provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act, and the Government, therefore, have been driven to face the issue and make proposals to deal with the future. Our quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman and the Government is that these proposals are not constructed upon the human lines which the existing conditions require, and that they can be in no way defended upon the ground of the resources of the country and the conditions of our Government. The right hon. Gentleman need have no doubt at all as to our appreciation of the degree of human feeling which, we know, determines his action in this matter. I listened to him to-day with, perhaps, even more than the usual degree of respect, because of the way in which he faced this problem and the frankness with which he outlined to the House the utter helplessness of the average workman to-day, forced into a state of idleness out of which he cannot escape by any effort of his own. The degree of human understanding expressed and exhibited in the speech of my right hon. Friend is hardly consistent with the terms of the Bill which he has been obliged to bring forward. In short, this Bill is not worthy of the Minister; it is not worthy of the problem; it is not worthy of the situation outside this House. My right hon. Friend, who knows the facts, which are beyond dispute, was frank
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  enough to confess that for the millions of people who are out of work there are very few vacancies offering an opportunity of employment. What, then, is the good of saying, as has been said, "What about domestic service; what about this system of unemployment insurance encouraging idleness?" Neither of those questions comes near to the reality of the situation. The real situation is that millions of men and women are faced with conditions which offer them very few opportunities indeed of getting work and earning their daily bread. This money, the payment of which we are here to support, is not a payment having any effect as a degradation. It is, as my right hon. Friend himself said, the condition of unemployment which carries the elements of degradation in relation to the large masses of the unemployed to-day.
  It is true that the miners' stoppage has a great deal to do with the extent of unemployment as it now exists. I am not going to be tempted, even if I were permitted, into a defence of the miners in relation to that lamentable fact, but I think that the admission that the coal situation is an underlying cause of this enormous increase of unemployment is in itself a reason for meeting the appeals which we press not to lessen the benefit under conditions which clearly are temporary and cannot exist for any long time in anything like the degree in which they face us now. Let us hope—and I think there is good ground to hope—that before long the causes of unemployment, so far as they rest upon the coal stoppage, will disappear. If we can look with any hope to a speedy disappearance of those causes and a resumption of work, surely that is an argument which reinforces the strength of our appeal that the rate of pay ought not to be reduced from £1 to 15s. in face of the probable early diminution in unemployment because of a resumption of work in the coal trade. Those of us who have something to do, intimately and personally, with the administration of these benefits, cannot look with as much complacency, if not indifference, upon this problem of unemployment as some hon. Members appear to do. It seems to some of us that this threat to reduce the pay counts too much upon an expectation of submission on the part of masses of men and women who will suffer by what is now being proposed. It is a dangerous

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  step to take. There has been the greatest patience and the greatest resignation to suffering and to real hardship felt day by day as a very deep privation, but human nature can be tested too far. You can make too great a demand upon the patience of masses of people, and in face of there being so little, if any, reduction in the cost of living of that portion of the country dependent upon this trade, it is a dangerous, certainly it is a cruel step to take to insist upon a reduction of one-fourth of the weekly payment of such a large number of people.
  During the War there was a certain form of conscription of labour. Men could not move about freely to take personal advantage of opportunities which the labour market offered them then. They were compelled in the national service to do certain things, and so were the employers. We have to-day this situation, which is partly the effect of after-war conditions and partly the effect of after-war Government policy, that employers in great industries are making demands for enormous reductions in wages. They are demands which are greatly disturbing the labour market, and are, in themselves, a great provocation to further unemployment. Uncertainty in the world of labour is not always caused by trade unions, and a great deal of that condition of uncertainty which interrupts the making of contracts and defers and checks enterprise, is due to the enormous wage reductions which many employers are demanding in different occupations, and if it was right during the War period to impose a certain form of industrial conscription upon workmen in the national service, would it not be right now to interfere seriously, as a Government, with the freedom of employers who are indulging their liberty too much and creating great disturbances in the industrial world because they are insisting upon too big a reduction at one time. Surely it would be a right and wise policy for the Government to say to these employers that they will not be allowed to enforce reductions except in so far as they can be shown to bear a real relation to the reduced cost of living in the case of the masses of the wage earners. That would not be asking for too great a degree of interference with the liberty of the employers in these different occupations. In short, the Government could do much to prevent
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  unemployment by doing a little to curb the tendency which is shown now by many employers to take advantage of the conditions of the labour market and of the comparative helplessness of workmen, because of the depletion of their trade union funds, to insist upon reductions of wages altogether in excess of anything which can be defended or justified.
  One argument has been addressed from one or two quarters of the House about which I should like to say a word. It is said solemnly, and as though it were as deep philosophy as one could utter, that the payment of unemployment benefit is in itself a cause of unemployment; therefore let us reduce the pay. Surely hon. Members are overlooking the fact that this is a scheme of insurance the funds for which are mainly provided, not by the State, but by the contributions of the employers and the workmen themselves. What is received is spent. It goes to some extent towards stimulating trade. It in no sense tends to diminish it. It is merely the spending of certain past savings. You might just as well say that because you pay out insurance money in case of fire you only provoke further fires, you only multiply the disaster, that one is the effect of the other. It is trifling with the realities of the situation to suggest that any individual, not to say family, can exist upon a weekly dole of 15s. Let hon. Members carry to its furthest limit the argument that it is a bad thing to pay any unemployment benefit. Let them stop the payment of this £2,000,000 a week. Let them have the courage of their convictions and say it shall be stopped altogether, and the immediate result will be rioting, robbery, and plunder, for people would be driven to steal and violate the law, because the needs of existence would compel it. You are faced, then, with the supreme necessity of providing some money, if only for the purpose of defending society, or the country itself, against the dire consequences which would follow if you dared to put this pay off altogether. That, I think, is not an unworthy answer to those who have suggested that it is a bad thing to pay anything as unemployment benefit and that it is a good thing now to reduce it from 20s. to 15s. We are faced with a choice, and it is this. Are we to try

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  to adjust the finance of insurance to the needs of the population, or to sacrifice the population, in relation to their immediate needs, to what is said to be the financial condition of the country, and as a choice between those two extremes, we say it is a cruel and wholly indefensible thing to come forward now and say to people who have been just lingering on a level of 20s. that, in face of even this uncertainty and their past sufferings, they must submit to a reduction of a fourth of their pay.
  I repeat the view which we have put forward previously from this side of the House. We acknowledge the financial embarrassment. We are not shutting our eyes to the facts of the financial situation. We know the difficulty of getting money. But insurance itself as a condition which pre-supposes both a good and a bad time, and this solution of the problem of unemployment as a scheme of insurance justifies us in saying that, just as we have drawn upon reserves and have spent reserves accumulated during days of prosperity, so can we now draw upon the future days of prosperity that we may reasonably calculate are ahead of us. We say that in probably six months or twelve months, or within some reasonable period, unless this Government is capable of even worse and more ruinous results than so far it has produced, we shall get back to something like normality in industry. Then you will have millions of workpeople and employers again peacefully paying into this fund, and building it up to perhaps a bigger fund than it has ever been before. The only argument I have heard the right hon. Gentleman give in reply to our suggestion that he should borrow to a far greater degree than he proposes to draw upon our future prosperity, is that we should have to pay some interest. I am not propounding a new principle. The principle is accepted. My right hon. Friend is proposing to borrow upon our future prosperity. Our doctrine is not unsound; it is part of his Bill. We ask the right hon. Gentleman to carry that doctrine so far as to enable him to go on paying the minimum of £1 a week, instead of reducing the pay to 15s. As to the interest argument, that is no insurmountable difficulty.
  Supposing a sum of £1,000,000 has to be found because of interest having to be paid upon the money which we suggest should be borrowed. Supposing it is
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  £2,000,000. I am thinking, in what I am suggesting, of the situation outside these walls, of the queues of unemployed, of the state of desperation to which people are being reduced. They are conditions so desperate as to justify the most desperate remedy, and to justify any departure from what has been the normal procedure of the Government in dealing with the question of unemployment. Supposing the further borrowing process involved the expenditure of another million. Could not that million be made good out of our future prosperity? Are we to say that because it would cost us another million or so during the next few months that we must not do it? If you are to look at this problem in the light of what it would cost you to borrow, and you put that argument before a working-class audience in the Camberwell Division, the right hon. Gentleman would get an answer that would shake his confidence.
  I see no escape from the situation which confronts us, unless this process of borrowing is carried further. You cannot find a remedy by simply seeking to increase contributions. That may be done. So far as workmen and employers are in full work and enjoying benefits denied to their fellows, I would not mind asking them to pay any reasonable contribution, just as I ask the Government to pay an additional contribution. If you like the logic, anything except reduction of pay. That is not a sacrifice which these large masses of people should be asked to endure at the present time. In the figures given to the House my right hon. Friend indicated that the increased subscriptions under the new provisions which he proposes would amount to something like £37,000,000.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: In one year.
  10.0 P.M.
  Mr. CLYNES: The amount in one year to be subscribed by all the subscribing parties would amount to about £31,000,000. Let the Government provide an additional sum of less than half that amount, and there would be no need to think of reducing the rate of unemployment pay as proposed in this Bill. I reject the view that the financial obstacles could not be overcome, if the Government really had the willingness to meet the difficulties. "Where is the money to come from?" says one timid Member.
  Mr. MARRIOTT: Hear, hear!
  Mr. W. THORNE: From where does it all come?
  Mr. CLYNES: Whenever the Government has cared to settle upon a certain policy, and that policy has involved the expenditure of millions, they have always found the will, just as they have settled upon the way. Therefore, if the Government care and determine that the benefit shall not be reduced, they are not unequal to the task of providing the necessary means of maintaining the existing level of unemployment pay. It is the state of starvation outside these walls that is the only appeal which we can make. I am not going into the details of the Bill, even the outstanding points, such as the reduction in the qualifying period, or the increase in the number of days to qualify a man for his pay, but the right hon. Gentleman may rest assured that some of the most deserving and hardworking men employed in our docks and transport industries will be the greatest sufferers from this change. They are men who are frequently out of employment for short periods, but seldom out of employment for any long period at once, and they will be expressly cut out, or many of them, from a chance of benefit under this altered scheme, although many of them, in so far as they have not been unemployed, have been paying to the Unemployment Insurance Scheme for a long time past. Contributions are to be increased. These are matters for Debate in the Committee stage.
  On one point we are entitled to have an answer, and that is in regard to those industries which contemplate, and which even now may have schemes before the Ministry of Labour to provide their own conditions of insurance in their own way. They are no longer to be permitted to make arrangements to contract out. We have generally not been in favour of the plan of contracting out, but in face of the provisions of the law there are a number of organisations which for a long time have been making arrangements, and I want to know in these cases, as in certain others, how it is that we have so sudden a reversal of Government policy, with no explanation, and, so far as I can see, no circumstances at all justifying the complete change in the attitude of the Government in relation to any general principle of insurance. The thing that matters most is the question to
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  which I have mostly addressed myself, and that is the reduction in the unemployment pay. I do seriously appeal to the Minister of Labour in the Committee stage not to continue the line of argument which has been maintained during this discussion. If you have a choice between running somewhat in debt or letting people die of starvation, the only appeal we can make to the right hon. Gentleman is the human one, not to let people die of starvation. Many hundreds of thousands of people who now are in receipt of this weekly payment I know are very near that limit. Take a trade union like the one which I represent, the National Union of General Workers In recent months we have been paying out enormous sums in unemployment benefit, amounting in recent weeks to about £23,000 a week, and no one man gets more than 6s., which is the limit we can pay, as provided in our rules, and by the contributions we receive. It is going. If this position continues for some little time longer, we shall not be able to do that. We may be compelled to stop paying. Unions represented on this basis have already been compelled to stop payment, because their funds are exhausted, and they have no means to repair them, because their members are out of work, and they have to meet all the obligations in the way of sickness and the numerous other charges which fall ordinarily on the head of a trade union. In face of the stoppage of these other sources of support to the millions of workers outside these walls, the present is the most inopportune moment to think of reducing the State pay, when the State is in a position to devise ways and means adequate to the purpose. I say adequate, but no one will argue, reasonably, that £1 a week is adequate to the humblest means of the ordinary working man. If that is to be confessed, there is no case that can be put forward on any ground for a reduction from £1 to 15s., and I trust that if the right hon. Gentleman can make no answer on the point to-night, he will pot shut his ears in Committee, because we cannot let this proposal find its way on the Statute Book without offering the strongest possible resistance to it.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): Those of us who are responsible for this Bill have, I think,

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  no reason to complain of the reception of the Second Reading by the House. Still less, if I may be allowed to say so, have we any reason to complain of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. With a great deal of his speech, it is perhaps unnecessary to say, I cannot agree, and I would like to draw attention to one or two points in it. First of all, I was rather sorry that he used the word "threat" in regard to the reduction of benefits. It is with the deepest regret that we are faced with the situation which has become inevitable; if a reduction is made it certainly is not done in any spirit which could be expressed by the word "threat" Another small point, if I may get it out of the way at once, was the question of the accumulation during the period of the War. I do not think I should refer to it if he had not, in my hearing, made the same point before. When we came to deal with the extension of the insurance principle in November last year, there was, it is true, the large sum of £22,000,000 in the Insurance Fund: my right hon. Friend uses that fact as an argument in favour of confidence in—what shall I say?—the financial future of the Fund. But I think it is incumbent upon us to bear in mind that that very big accumulation did arise in an abnormal time, a period of War when there was no unemployment, and when, therefore, the accumulation mounted up at a rate which you really cannot calculate will be continued in normal times.
  There are one or two other points with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt, especially the point about the special scheme. But, generally speaking, with regard to the speeches of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, I think we can say they were good enough to recognise the difficulties of the situation, and the opposition was one more of sorrow than of anger. As I have indicated, all of us regret the stern, hard necessity of the case. But I think it is necessary that we should bear in mind that it is the Insurance Fund we have to consider. It is the Insurance Fund that is depleted, and it is the Insurance Fund that must be built up again by the methods which we have outlined in the present Bill. No one likes the reduction. Everyone desires that it should have been avoided if possible. At the same time, even bearing that reduction in mind, do not let us
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  forget that this Insurance scheme, even with the reduction, is the biggest scheme of the kind in the world. There is nothing parallel to it, and if my right hon. Friend complains of the reduction—and I do not raise any criticism that he should do so; I like it as little as anybody—at least it is fair to ask him and our Friends opposite to bear in mind that there is no scheme of this magnitude and securing on the whole such satisfactory results, and anything comparable to our scheme in the world.
  Mr. J. DAVISON: Oh, yes there is—in both Belgium and Holland.
  Sir M. BARLOW: Nothing like the benefits or the numbers. We shall have an opportunity of discussing the matter on the Clauses of this Bill, but I think I am right in my contention. If I have one complaint to make with regard to this discussion, it is that we have heard so little criticism really of the Clauses of the Bill. An hon Member opposite says that we shall get it in Committee, but there are certain broad aspects of the Bill which, I think, it would have been useful if we could have discussed on the Second Reading in the normal way. We have heard a good deal about the Ter Meulen system, the index figures and other things which bear only remotely upon our problem here this evening. I shall be glad to give the answer to them on the proper occasion and in the proper place, but I do not think this is the occasion or the place. I would, however, like to take one or two of the special points which have been raised on the Bill itself, because I think it may save time and, I hope, clear up some misconception. The first point of real substance which was raised by my right hon. Friend who has just sat down, and also by the right hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge), was the question of the special schemes. It was said, "You, the Government, have professed a desire that industries should bear their own burden of unemployed insurance. You put a provision, Section 18, in the Act of 1920, and now you are coming down and making the schemes impossible." The position is this. Clause 5 of the Bill says:
  "The power of the Minister under Section 18 of the principal Act to make special orders approving or making special schemes shall not be exercised during the deficiency period."
  In other words, there was power under Section 18 of the Act of 1920, in any in-

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  dustry where insurance could be more satisfactorily provided by a special scheme, to sanction it. All that the Bill says is that it will not be possible and will not be reasonable to allow contracting out by means of special schemes so long as the deficiency period lasts. The deficiency period is defined as continuing until the Treasury gives a certificate that the Fund is solvent. Clearly it would not be possible to allow an industry, possibly when the bad times have been tided over or have nearly come to an end, to say, "We have had our burden borne by the Fund during the bad times. We now propose to clear out of the scheme." That would not be fair to those who remain in the scheme. Directly the Fund becomes solvent the deficiency period comes to an end, the normal position will arise again, and Section 18 of the principal Act can be put in operation by those who are able to satisfy its requirements. But it is a proposition which commends itself to every business man in this House that, until the period arrives when the Treasury gives a certificate that the scheme is again solvent, it would not be desirable to allow industries to contract out.
  Another point was made about reduction of benefit It was said that it was a breach of faith. If that were so, that would be a serious charge and I desire to meet it at once. Those who make that charge have omitted to advert to two facts. First there were those who said, "It is a breach of faith; a breaking of a treaty, treating it as a scrap of paper." Those who said that have forgotten that under the Act of 1920 provision is expressly made for the possibility of reduction in this way. An indication is given in the Second Schedule that occasions might arise when benefits would have to be reduced. That was a danger signal. It is not quite fair for hon. Gentlemen to say that this is a direct breach of faith, that no notice was given of the possibility of this happening and that we ought not therefore to do it. Furthermore, though I do not profess to have as great experience of the management of trade union finance as my hon. Friends opposite, yet if I am right in my conclusion from what study I have been able to give to the subject, it has been not at all an uncommon feature in trade union finance—and there are many precedents for it in trade union history—that when
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  funds have become low benefits have had to be reduced. If that is so, surely my hon. Friends opposite cannot make a complaint with very great seriousness if, in the existing state of the Insurance Fund, which is based on the trade union precedent, something of the same kind has to be done by us to-day.
  There was a question raised by the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Wignall) and the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) about the extension of the waiting period from three days to six. The matter is rather a technical one and I do not want to go into it at length at this hour. Opportunities will occur for examining and exploring the position at greater length in Committee upstairs. But I can assure my friends that the Clause, as we propose it, does not have quite the disastrous or revolutionary effects which are suggested. A case was put by the hon. Member for St. Helens with regard to dock labour, and he appealed to me as representing a constituency in which there are large docks—an appeal to which I am naturally very sympathetic. But he says that the proposal introduced into this Bill to extend the three days to six days will very seriously affect people like dockers who have, perhaps, half a day on and half a day off. But he has failed to appreciate the effect of Section 7 of the Act of 1920 which provides this continuity rule. What that Section says, roughly, is this: you may have two sorts of broken employment time. You may have two days on and two days off or you may have three days on and three days off, but in no case are you to deal with less than one day. Then the question arises, how far will this requirement of six days affect these continuity rules? There is a variety of arrangements still perfectly feasible. You may have two days on and two days off, two days on and two days off, or two days on and four days off, or one day on and five days off. It is true that three days on and three off and three days on and three off will not be permitted, but what will be perfectly feasible is this: three days on and three days off, and then, turning about, three days off and three days on in the next week. I do not wish to go into it at length, but I think I have said enough to show that the possibilities of the rule have not been quite appreciated by those who criticise it.

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  There is one point I was asked to deal with specially by the hon. Member for North Armagh (Lieut.-Colonel Allen). He referred to the question of the periods under the Act of 1921, the Act of last March, and what the period will be from the present date. Under the Act of last March, two special periods of 35 weeks are outlined—a period of 35 weeks from 3rd March to 2nd November of this year, and another period from 3rd November of this year to the 2nd July next year. In each of these periods 16 weeks' benefit is secured under the Act. The proposal of this Bill is that over the remaining 19 weeks an additional 6 weeks' benefit should be allowed, and a similar proposal is made with regard to the parallel period of 35 weeks running from 3rd November next to the 2nd July of next year. Accordingly, under the Act of last March 16 weeks are secured in each of the 35-week periods, and now an additional 6 weeks is guaranteed over the balance of 19 weeks not covered in each of the 35-week periods. I do not propose to say anything more about the details of the Bill.
  Mr. J. DAVISON: May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman to say that the people who are unemployed do not care a tinker's curse about the details of the Bill. All they are bothered about is the reduction of pay.
  Sir M. BARLOW: As I said when I got up, we all regret the bitter necessity with which we are faced.
  Mr. DAVISON: Appeal to the patriotism of your supporters.
  Sir M. BARLOW: We unfortunately see no other course open but that which is now proposed. We do hope, however, that the improvement in trade, of which there are indications, may render unnecessary some, at any rate, of the claims upon this fund.
  Mr. BRIANT: There is one aspect of the question which does not seem to have been dealt with. I have no intention of going into the particulars underlying the Bill or into the causes of unemployment, but I want to traverse the calm assumption of Members opposite that if you reduce unemployment pay by 5s., somehow or other the men and their families are going to reduce the cost of their living by that amount. The cost of the
  554
  necessities of life will be the same, and neither on 15s. nor on 20s. can a man, his wife and two or three children live. Nor have they lived on the 20s. I venture to say the majority of the Members of the House do not realise that at the present moment the 20s. is being supplemented by large amounts from other sources, but principally from the Poor Law. The net effect of this reduction will not be a saving to the State. It will only remove the burden from the backs of the taxpayers and put it on to backs of the ratepayers, and I have figures which will prove that. Speaking of the district which I know most intimately, I may mention that last week in rates which were spent entirely on able-bodied unemployed the cost to one particular parish was £680 in the week. I estimate that in London alone at the present rate of expenditure the poor rates will be increased by £750,000 for unemployed. The method of transferring this burden from the taxpayers to the ratepayers is admittedly unjust, as it increases the burden on those who have already a heavy burden, and takes it from the shoulders of those best able to bear some part of the cost. I wish to illustrate this by an actual and indisputable fact, and I think the House should remember when it passes this Bill, if it intends to pass it, that the 5s. is going directly on to the rates. How is it that rates are high in one place and low in another. We are at the present moment in Westminster. Westminster, by a series of what are called improvements, drove the poor of these districts across the river into Battersea and Lambeth, with the effect that those particular areas have a very high rate.
  As it is now, Westminster is escaping the cost of a large part of unemployment and putting it on the backs of the poorer districts. Chelsea has to pay 14s. 4d. in the £, whilst Lambeth has to pay 16s. 3d., Bethnal Green 19s. 11d. and Poplar 22s. It means that industrial districts, which have the largest calls on the rates and are therefore already overburdened, are going to bear the extra burden of reducing the amount of unemployment pay by 5s. a week. I know my own constituents very well, and I know the men there do not want unemployment pay at all. There is nothing the average working man hates more than forming up

  555
  in that queue for either 20s. or 15s. A man said to me only the other day, "I wish they would give me work, even for two days a week, rather than make me stand in that queue." Frequently the men tell me they loathe going up for the money, and the better class of working man does, and I wish hon. Members opposite realised what it means to these families. It means a gradual reduction of their standard of life, and that is a tragedy; it means a deterioration in the physique of the children and a deterioration in their morale, because killing time is a soul-degenerating occupation for anybody, whether it comes from too much riches or too much poverty. It is futile to say the State cannot pay. The State has got to pay, and will pay in one way or another when the people are thus reduced to semi-starvation.
  I hope that even now the House will see that the burden is only being transferred to another section of the community and that it is far better for the State to bear the burden as a whole. I know the people intimately, and anyone who imagines that the average working man loves idleness is wrong. He loathes it. There is nothing he finds more monotonous, and there are hundreds and thousands of men in London alone who would bless anyone who would get them work at even the most reasonable rate of pay. To say they would be ready always to live on these doles and do nothing is a libel on the men who constitute the main bulk of the working classes. I hope the House will see there is some point in the issue I have raised. I want hon. Members also to realise what it means, not only to the men, but to the State, in the lowering of the standard of life which is now coming upon many thousands of working class homes. I took a large part in advocating War Savings Certificates during the War, when wages were high. I never participated, however, in the feelings of those who thought it wicked for a working man to buy a piano. I think it one of the best investments he could make, because everybody knows that it is a distinct attempt to raise the standard of his home. There is nothing worse for a man than having to lower that standard. The tragedy of the man lowering his standard is when he has to part with the things he
  556
  has brought together by his thrift, industry, and sobriety. Therefore it is in the interests of everybody, in their own working capacity for the future, in the interest of the whole nation, that we should not suddenly take off 5s., but even keep up the amount, paltry though it may seem, which may make all the difference between the border-line of starvation and those concerned being able to purchase the bare necessities of life. I trust the House will reject this particular Bill.
  Mr. D. M. COWAN: I wish in a very few words to say why I cannot support the Second Beading of this Bill. To one part, the raising of the contribution for the workmen, I take no objection. I think the financial position at the present moment demands something of that sort. For the second part, however, the lowered rate of payment to those out of work, I take very serious objection, indeed. If I may say so, I think it is another case of precipitate legislation, of which we have had a good deal of late. I am sorry to think that a strong Coalition Government, such as we have at the present time, should lose its nerve owing to the threats of the anti-waste Press—so called. What does this mean, the lowered rate of weekly allowance to the men and the women? It means, as has been said already, lowered vitality for every man, woman, and child. I am old enough to remember the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour speak outside this House, and make some of the most eloquent pleas to which I have ever listened on behalf of the children of this country. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman's feelings are the same to-day as they were then. This means lowered vitality. It means that in this country we are going to have more children crying for bread. That is a danger to the State. Those children of to-day are to be the citizens of tomorrow. The State cannot make any fair demand upon those children in the future unless it plays the game fairly by them just now. Therefore I do hope the Government will take into very serious reconsideration these points which they have had put before them. This is one of the occasions, if any, on which I think the future should be mortgaged. Therefore I do think that the Government would be well-advised to reconsider this

  557
  decision to which they have come. I simply take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to make plain my position.
  Mr. C. WHITE: I will only—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—take three or four minutes. I have sat during the whole of this Debate, and I may perhaps be allowed to put the side of the question that has not been put, seeing now we have the largest House since the Debate opened. I am amazed at the lack of interest that has been shown in this very important matter, which affects so many households in the country. I am going to speak, if I may, entirely from a human side. I am not going to speak on the economic side, which has been dealt with. I am going into the Lobby to vote against this Bill in no half-hearted manner. I know what the reduction of 20s. to 15s. per week means. It means still great privations in many homes which are now suffering semi-starvation. These men and women are out of work not through any fault of their own. It is the fault very largely of the Government. The Government were warned about it in this House by men of all parties when the Decontrol Bill came up. I agree with what the hon. Member for Oldham said. We are living to some extent on our capital; but the capital of the nation has largely been made by the workers of the nation. They have a perfect right at a time like this to share in the capital which they have taken so great a part in establishing. Let me give a little sum in human arithmetic I will take the average case of a man with a wife and two children having to live on this 20s. a week. At least there will be 5s. a week for rent, which leaves only 15s. a week. Taking three meals a day at twopence each per head, it works out at 2s. per week each, or 14s. a week. Already with the 5s. rent it means
  that 19s. a week of the 20s. has gone. Do hon. Members who have just come down from a sumptuous dinner, which has probably cost more than the whole of this family's weekly allowance, realise what this means? It means that at these three meals there is one small loaf and nothing else with it, even with the present allowance; but what will it mean when it is reduced to 15s.?
  It is all very well to argue this from the economic, the technical, or political standpoint. This is distinctly a human question. We have to avoid starvation and nothing can excuse the Government coming forward at this moment with a provocative measure like this, which will only accentuate the privations of these people. I have stood in the queues during the past few weeks where these people have been waiting for their pay and I have seen them faint from exhaustion and semi-starvation, and it is because of this state of things that I have insisted upon saying these few words on behalf of those who are suffering. I know that nothing I can say will influence the automatic followers of the Government, who will shortly troop into the Lobby in support of this Bill. On a previous occasion 20s. was fixed as the amount by this Government, and now we have the same Government coming forward and asking us to cancel their former proposal. This is a gross betrayal of the working people, and the only redeeming feature about it is that it will put another nail in the coffin of the most incompetent Government that has ever existed in this country.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 214; Noes, 83.

  Division No. 165.]

  AYES.

  [10.45 p.m.

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Bigland, Alfred

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

  Borwick, Major G. O.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Clough, Robert

  Baird, Sir John Lawrence

  Bowles, Colonel H. F.

  Coats, Sir Stuart

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Barlow, Sir Montague

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Brown, Major D. C.

  Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

  Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Bruton Sir James

  Cope, Major William

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Buchanan, Lieut. Colonel A. L. H.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

  Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

  Lindsay, William Arthur

  Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Edgar, Clifford B.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

  Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund

  Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

  Lorden, John William

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Seager, Sir William

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

  Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

  Fell, Sir Arthur

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Mallalieu, Frederick William

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Ford, Patrick Johnston

  Manville, Edward

  Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

  Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Mason, Robert

  Starkey, Captain John Ralph

  Forrest, Walter

  Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Mitchell, William Lane

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Molson, Major John Elsdale

  Stevens, Marshall

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Stewart, Gershom

  Gange, E. Stanley

  Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

  Sugden, W. H.

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Taylor, J.

  Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

  Morrison, Hugh

  Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

  Green, Albert (Derby)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

  Murray, John (Leeds, West)

  Thomson, Sir W Mitchell- (Maryhill)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Murray, William (Dumfries)

  Townley, Maximilian G.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nail, Major Joseph

  Tryon, Major George Clement

  Hailwood, Augustine

  Neal, Arthur

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Waddington, R.

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

  Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Walton, J. (York, W. R., Don Valley)

  Haslam, Lewis

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Waring, Major Walter

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Watson, Captain John Bertrand

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Hinds, John

  Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool)

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

  Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

  Wild; Sir Ernest Edward

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

  Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Williams, C. (Tavistock)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Perring, William George

  Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

  Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

  Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

  Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

  Howard, Major S. G.

  Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

  Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

  Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

  Wilson-Fox, Henry

  Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Wise, Frederick

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Purchase, H. G.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rae, H. Norman

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ramsden, G. T.

  Young, E. H. (Norwich)

  Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

  Raper, A. Baldwin

  Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

  Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

  Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

  Younger, Sir George

  Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

  Kidd, James

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Reid, D. D.

  Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

  Renwick, George

  Dudley Ward.

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

  Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

  O'Connor, Thomas P.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  O'Grady, James

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Pearce, Sir William

  Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

  Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Halls, Walter

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

  Hayday, Arthur

  Robertson, John

  Briant, Frank

  Hayward, Evan

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs. Stretford)

  Bromfield, William

  Hirst, G. H.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Cairns, John

  Irving, Dan

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

  Jesson, C.

  Sexton, James

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lawson, John James

  Spencer, George A.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Lunn, William

  Spoor, B. G.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Swan, J. E.

  Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Edwards, Hugh (Glam., Neath)

  Mills, John Edmund

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  Tootill, Robert

  Gillis, William

  Myers, Thomas

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Newbould, Alfred Ernest

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  560

  561

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Wignall, James

  Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

  Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Hogge.

  Wilson, James (Dudley)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Bill read a Second time.

  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[Mr. Hodge.]
  The House divided: Ayes, 79; Noes, 224.

  Division No. 166.]

  AYES.

  [10.55 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.

  Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

  Robertson, John

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Halls, Walter

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Barton, Sir William (Oldham)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Sexton, James

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hayward, Evan

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Hirst, G. H.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

  Irving, Dan

  Spencer, George A.

  Briant, Frank

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Spoor, B. G.

  Bromfield, William

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Swan, J. E.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Cairns, John

  Lawson, John James

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield)

  Lunn, William

  Tootill, Robert

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

  Mills, John Edmund

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  Wignall, James

  Devlin, Joseph

  Myers, Thomas

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Newbould, Alfred Ernest

  Wilson, James (Dudley)

  Edwards, G. (Norfolk, South)

  O'Connor, Thomas P.

  Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

  Galbraith, Samuel

  O'Grady, James

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Gillis, William

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

  Redmond, Captain William Archer

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Hogge.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  NOES.

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Greenwood, William (Stockport)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Clough, Robert

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Coats, Sir Stuart

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hailwood, Augustine

  Amery, Leopold C. M. S.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Baird, Sir John Lawrence

  Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

  Haslam, Lewis

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Cope, Major William

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Barlow, Sir Montague

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

  Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Hinds, John

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hoare, Lieut-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Messley)

  Bennett, Sir Thomas Jewell

  Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

  Howard, Major S. G.

  Bigland, Alfred

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

  Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

  Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Borwick, Major G. O.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Jesson, C.

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Fell, Sir Arthur

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Bowles, Colonel H. F.

  Fildes, Henry

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Ford, Patrick Johnston

  Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Kidd, James

  Broad, Thomas Tucker

  Forrest, Walter

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Brown, Major D. C.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

  Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Gange, E. Stanley

  Lindsay, William Arthur

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Lloyd-Greame, Sir P.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Lorden, John William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

  Gould, James C.

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

  Green, Albert (Derby)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

  McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

  Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

  Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

  Mallalieu, Frederick William

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

  Manville, Edward

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Townley, Maximilian G.

  Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

  Rae, H. Norman

  Tryon, Major George Clement

  Mason, Robert

  Ramsden, G. T.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Matthews, David

  Raper, A. Baldwin

  Waddington, R.

  Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

  Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

  Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

  Mitchell, William Lane

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

  Walton, J (York, W. R., Don Valley)

  Molson, Major John Elsdale

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Reid, D. D.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Waring, Major Walter

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Renwick, George

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

  Watson, Captain John Bertrand

  Morrison, Hugh

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

  Murray, John (Leeds, West)

  Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

  Murray, William (Dumfries)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Williams, C. (Tavistock)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

  Neal, Arthur

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Seager, Sir William

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

  Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

  Shaw, Capt. William T. (Forfar)

  Wilson-Fox, Henry

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

  Wise, Frederick

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Smith, Sir Harold (Warrington)

  Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

  Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

  Young, E. H. (Norwich)

  Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

  Starkey, Captain John Ralph

  Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

  Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool)

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Younger, Sir George

  Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

  Stewart, Gershom

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.

  Perring, William George

  Sugden, W. H.

  Dudley Ward.

  Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

  Taylor, J.

  Bill committed to a Standing Committee.

  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE [PAYMENTS].
  Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an increased contribution towards unemployment benefit and any other payments to be made out of the Unemployment Fund, and of authorising the Treasury to make, for the purpose of discharging the liabilities of the Unemployment Fund, advances not exceeding at any time £20,000,000, and to borrow money for such advances by the issue of such securities as the Treasury think proper, the principal of, and in-
  564
  terest on, any such securities to be charged on and payable out of the Consolidated Fund, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session relating to insurance against unemployment—(King's Recommendation signified)—To-morrow.—[Dr. Macnamara.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

GOVERNMENT STAFFS AND ACCOMMODATION.
  TEMPORARY BUILDINGS.
  TEMPORARY BUILDINGS.
  ESTABLISHED LIST (ADDITIONS).
  ESTABLISHED LIST (ADDITIONS).
  INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT, DUBLIN (TEMPORARY STAFF).
  INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT, DUBLIN (TEMPORARY STAFF).
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (SALARIES).
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (SALARIES).
  LAW OFFICES.
  LAW OFFICES.
  TRAVELLING EXPENSES.
  TRAVELLING EXPENSES.
COAL INDUSTRY DISPUTE.
  EMERGENCY MEASURES (COST).
  EMERGENCY MEASURES (COST).
  RAILWAYS BILL (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE).
  RAILWAYS BILL (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE).
  AIR MINISTRY (MODEL VILLAGE).
  AIR MINISTRY (MODEL VILLAGE).
  NATIONAL WAR BONDS (CONVERSION LOAN).
  NATIONAL WAR BONDS (CONVERSION LOAN).
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
  GERMAN REPARATION.
  COMMERCIAL UNDERTAKINGS (GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS).
  COMMERCIAL UNDERTAKINGS (GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS).
  INCOME TAX (REPAYMENT CLAIMS, MANCHESTER).
  INCOME TAX (REPAYMENT CLAIMS, MANCHESTER).
IRELAND.
  CRIMINAL INJURIES (COMPENSATION).
  CRIMINAL INJURIES (COMPENSATION).
  PERSONS OF REBEL SYMPATHIES.
  PERSONS OF REBEL SYMPATHIES.
  CASE UNDER INQUIRY.
  CASE UNDER INQUIRY.
BRITISH ARMY.
  MILITARY EXPENDITURE, TURKEY, EAST PERSIA, AND MESOPOTAMIA.
  MILITARY EXPENDITURE, TURKEY, EAST PERSIA, AND MESOPOTAMIA.
  DEFENCE FORCE (LEAVE AND PAY).
  DEFENCE FORCE (LEAVE AND PAY).
ROYAL NAVY.
  OBSOLETE SHIPS.
  OBSOLETE SHIPS.
  BIRCHING.
  BIRCHING.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  DISABILITY PENSION (F. J. TAYLOR).
  DISABILITY PENSION (F. J. TAYLOR).
  MEDICAL OFFICERS
  MEDICAL OFFICERS
SCOTLAND.
  AGRICULTURE ACT, 1920.
  AGRICULTURE ACT, 1920.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, LENNOXTOWN.
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, LENNOXTOWN.
INDIA.
  ARMY OFFICERS, MESOPOTAMIA (INCOME TAX).
  ARMY OFFICERS, MESOPOTAMIA (INCOME TAX).
  ARMY OFFICERS, JAPAN (EXCHANGE CONCESSIONS).
  ARMY OFFICERS, JAPAN (EXCHANGE CONCESSIONS).
  PRISON ADMINISTRATION.
  PRISON ADMINISTRATION.
  DEMOBILISED OFFICERS (PASSAGES).
  DEMOBILISED OFFICERS (PASSAGES).
HOUSING.
  JOURNAL AND PUBLICITY BRANCH.
  JOURNAL AND PUBLICITY BRANCH.
  ISLE OF WIGHT.
  ISLE OF WIGHT.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  LUNACY ACTS.
  LUNACY ACTS.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1906.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1906.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  EGYPT (SIR M. MACDONALD).
  EGYPT (SIR M. MACDONALD).
  ANGLO-AMERICAN OIL COMPANY.
  ANGLO-AMERICAN OIL COMPANY.
  MILK PRICES, LONDON AND SOMERSET.
  MILK PRICES, LONDON AND SOMERSET.
  HERRING FISHERY GUARANTEE.
  HERRING FISHERY GUARANTEE.
  UNFIT HORSES (EXPORT).
  UNFIT HORSES (EXPORT).
  DAIRY INDUSTRY (GOVERNMENT LOANS).
  DAIRY INDUSTRY (GOVERNMENT LOANS).
  POLICE PENSIONERS.
  POLICE PENSIONERS.
  WOMEN POLICE.
  WOMEN POLICE.
  BRITISH AMERICA NICKEL CORPORATION, LTD.
  BRITISH AMERICA NICKEL CORPORATION, LTD.
  RUSSIA (BRITISH TRADE MISSION).
  RUSSIA (BRITISH TRADE MISSION).
  POST OFFICE (WAGES).
  POST OFFICE (WAGES).
  EDUCATION (TEACHERS' SALARIES).
  EDUCATION (TEACHERS' SALARIES).
  SIERRA LEONE (CHIEF INSPECTOR RABBIT).
  SIERRA LEONE (CHIEF INSPECTOR RABBIT).
  MOTOR CARS (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
  MOTOR CARS (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
RADCLIFFE AND LITTLE LEVER JOINT GAS BOARD BILL.
Read 2ª.
WIGAN CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2ª.
SOUTHEND WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

WAKEFORD PROSECUTION COSTS.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL rose to ask the Lord Chancellor whether, in view of the result of the appeal to the Privy Council by Mr. Wakeford, there is any public fund from which the costs of the prosecution can be found in view of the fact that at present the onus of this prosecution has to be borne by the Bishop of Lincoln, notwithstanding the finding of the members of the Board. The noble Earl said: My Lords, it is a considerable number of years since I had the privilege of addressing your Lordships' House. Before asking the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack the Question standing in my name, I should be grateful if the House would allow me to explain the reason why it appears on the Order Paper. I am one of the signatories of an appeal which has gone out through the medium of the Press for the purpose of endeavouring to reimburse the Bishop of Lincoln for the very heavy costs which have been involved by the prosecution before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. There seems to be in the mind of the public some misconception as to the reason why he was mulcted for these costs.
We are all well aware that Mr. Wakeford was tried before the Consistory, Court and found guilty. He had the option of appealing to the Court of Arches, and did not avail himself of that option; but, as funds were found to enable him to go before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, he decided to take the appeal to that Committee. We know the verdict of
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the Judicial Committee, but the result is that a very heavy burden was imposed on the private income of the Bishop of Lincoln, and there was no chance of the costs which were allowed to him by the Committee ever being obtained. The general public are somewhat under the impression that Church affairs are in rather the same position as military affairs in matters of this kind. They do not understand—or, at all events, some people do not understand—the reason why a great officer of the Church should be mulcted in this way while a General Officer Commanding-in-Chief has no expenses in such a case. Of course, I appreciate the fact that the two cases are not on all fours, but at the same time it might be possible to find some portion, possibly from the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, of this very heavy burden which is being borne by the Bishop of Lincoln.
Perhaps the noble mid learned Lord will allow me to ask whether it would in future be possible, while not eliminating the right of appeal to the highest Court in such cases, somewhat to limit the scope or power of the individual to make an appeal to the Judicial Committee. I believe I am correct in saying that in cases which come before the Judicial Committee from the Colonies and Dominions the applicant has to guarantee the costs before the appeal is allowed.
There are three matters I should like to mention before I sit down. I do not suppose for a moment that the noble and learned Lord will make any remark upon them, but I have received a communication pointing out that there are a large number of people who, whatever answer may be given this afternoon, would like to see some fund created, not necessarily for the purposes of prosecuting the clergy, in order to prevent these heavy costs falling upon the shoulders of bishops. The second point is that when it becomes necessary for a bishop to take disciplinary action in his diocese, no one outside that diocese, with the exception of the Archbishop, should be allowed to interfere in any way. The third point is that it is earnestly hoped that, when a man has been deprived, he will not be re-licensed, unless the circumstances are very exceptional.
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack responds to this Question, I want to make a contribution, and I think I am the only living person who can make it, It was my

539
luck to be counsel for a former Bishop of Lincoln in a case where he though it necessary to refuse institution to a clerk who had presented himself, and by doing so he was involved in a great deal of litigation, and ultimately had to pay all the costs. My contribution is this. Sir George Jessel, Master of the Rolls, had one part of the case before him, and he took occasion to express, what he said had been his long considered opinion, that there ought to be some public fund out of which bishops acting as public officers should be reimbursed.
Sir George Jessel's public statement was a very remarkable one, for no fewer than four reasons. First, he was not a member of the Church: he was a member of the Jewish community, and he spoke only from the position of a man interested in the good order of the country generally, and the support of all public authorities. Secondly, it was not a case where lie was saying that the Bishop was right. It was a case where, recognising fully the public spirit and motives of the Bishop, he felt compelled to order him to pay the costs of the other side, because he thought the other side was right, and ought to have its costs. The third consideration is this. At the time when Sir George Jessel so expressed himself the income of the see of Lincoln was certainly larger than that of the present Bishop, because Nottinghamshire had not been taken from it, and larger than that of most sees at the present moment. Fourthly, it was at a time when an income of that description went very much further than it does now.
I have often had occasion to think about this, and I have always felt that, now that bishops have been deprived of their great estates, and reduced to the position of annuitants, receiving a special stipend, it is not right that expenses of this kind, which may fall accidentally upon some one bishop in the course of a good many years, should be a burden upon that bishop and that see. I have always felt that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who have received enormous emoluments from many episcopal sees, ought, under due precautions, to furnish all, or at any rate a considerable proportion, of the costs of bishops who, in performing a public duty, are put to such expenses as the Bishop of Lincoln has been put to in this case; because everybody knows that, though it is quite right that the other side should be ordered
540
to pay the costs, the practical chance of getting the costs out of such an appellant are nil.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I should like to give a precedent—although it is not exactly in accord with the present case—under which these costs might be paid to the Bishop quite irrespective of what might be done in the future as regards providing a fund for purposes of this kind. I have in mind a case happened to the late Archbishop Temple, at a time when I had just become his Vicar-General. The question arose in connection with the confirmation of the present Bishop Gore in the see of Worcester. Very strong objections were raised by the Low Church Party, and I was asked, as Vicar-General, on behalf of the Primate, to try whether he was an orthodox person or not. That is a duty I refused to undertake. But in the result the question was taken to the King's Bench, and argued for nearly a month. Very large costs were involved, amounting to several thousands of pounds, which would have been a very heavy charge on the Archbishop, and to which, personally as Vicar-General. I was very pleased not to he subject. We won the case. Lord Salisbury intervened on that occasion, and the costs of the Primate I and of his Vicar-General were paid from a public fund.
There was no claim on any public fund, but, as a fact, the costs were found. And I think it was a very proper case. I recollect in the first instance asking His Grace what to do, having regard to the liability for costs, and he said very properly "Never mind how many thousands of pounds in costs may be involved; do what is right," which I think was an answer with which everyone would agree. I quote that case only to show that although there was no public fund applicable to the payment of costs, provision was made for them. I agree with what has been said about the application of public funds to matters of that kind, but that can only affect future proceedings. I should like to suggest that this illustration might be looked into in order to see whether costs might not Et paid from some public fund in the present case.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I do not know that my intervention in this discussion is really necessary, but the noble Earl who introduced the Motion referred to me

541
and perhaps I might say a few words. I should obviously leave the noble Lord on the Woolsack to answer the legal questions that have been raised, to which contributions have been made by two noble and learned Lords, but having had long experience in this kind of question, indeed, of this question itself, in practical form on several different occasions, I should perhaps say something.
It is obvious that the difficulty which a bishop has to face is very real when it becomes his duty, not as an individual but as a public officer, to undertake the prosecution of someone whom he believes to have offended. Whether it is possible to distinguish between the cases in which a bishop so acts in regard to morals and those in which a bishop so acts with regard to doctrine or ritual, I am not prepared to say. The case that was referred to by my noble and learned friend, Lord Parmoor, belongs, of course, to the second category, and most of the cases in the last half century, which have involved the payment of very large costs, have been cases which were not on moral matters, but on questions of doctrine or of ritual. So far a know, everybody agrees that if it be possible there ought to be some mode whereby a bishop should not be mulcted in so large an amount as he may sometimes find himself mulcted in when he has acted simply as a public officer or, on the other hand, be deterred from a prosecution on the ground of his fear that such a contingency might arise.
During a very long experience of episcopal affairs I have no knowledge whatever of any case in which a bishop has refrained from bringing into Court a matter which he thought ought to be brought into Court, because of the possible costs which might fall upon himself. When the Royal Commission on Ecclesiastical Courts, which reported in 1883, was sitting, many of the witnesses dealt incidentally or directly with the subject of costs. Everybody agreed that there ought to be some mode of protecting bishops and other public officers in the matter, but no practical suggestion was made as to the source from which such funds could fairly or reasonably be drawn. References like that of the noble Earl to-day were made to the Ecclesiastical Commission—that the funds there might possibly be available for such purposes, but no one put it in any concrete form as a definite recommendation, either
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in 1883 or in 1906, when matters concerning ecclesiastical discipline were before the Royal Commission of which I was a member.
The moment we speak of the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commission as the source from which money might be obtained for this purpose, we have rightly to ask for what object the funds they now hold in trust were given—that is, what is the trust for which they are answerable? It is for the augmentation of the poorest benefices, the helping of the most needy parishes to do their work properly, and assistance so that the poorest clergy shall be made a little less poor, so far as the Commissioners have power to do it. Therefore, if you are going to take money from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' funds for this purpose, it is only fair to remember that you are really taking it from the poorest clergy in England in order to pay the expenses of bishops. I, for one, as President of the Ecclesiastical Commission, am not prepared to recommend that that money should be so diverted, although I am perfectly ready to hear arguments brought forward showing that it is desirable.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore, suggests that something of the kind might be done, but I would venture to say that he, least of all, needs to be informed that it could not be done without legislation. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have no power whatever at present to devote their money to the purpose, and if legislation is to be obtained it is undoubtedly open to the noble Lord or anyone else to raise that question in the National Assembly of the Church, and to see what their view is about it. I shall be ready to fall in with the views of churchmen, clerical and lay, on the question, but prima facie I should be the fast to stand here as a bishop and ask that the costs in this matter should fall upon other than those who should really bear them.
During my thirty years' experience of the Episcopate I have had four or five cases in which I have been liable for the payment of considerable costs in matters of discipline relating to morals or wrong doing of that kind; never in the least like the expense of the particular case to which we are now referring, but to the extent of a few hundred pounds. In no single instance have I failed to receive that money, either from anonymous sources or from individuals

543
who gave their names. I do not say that no expense has fallen upon me, but in every case I have been relieved by the generosity of those who felt that the thing was not fair to the bishop. The money has been found in some way by the kindness of lay friends who desired that the bishop should be relieved. That is my personal experience, although, as I have said, there was no ease in which the requirement was anything like so large as it is in the instance which is before us now.
In opening the discussion the noble Earl mentioned two points upon which I desire to say a word. I do not know that I entirely follow him as to what he thinks ought to be done, as he put it, to prevent someone from outside, other than the Archbishop, interfering in this matter. I suppose in a free country anybody may advise a defendant in a suit to appeal and encourage him to do so, if he thinks it is wise that he should appeal and that his ease should conic before a higher tribunal. I should not for a moment join in any criticism, still less in condemnation, of the giving of such advice by anyone who thought that the defendant in a particular case had either been wrongly convicted in the inferior Court or that his case was one of such importance that nothing less than the very highest tribunal ought to be the ultimate adjudicator in the matter. I cannot imagine how that can be prevented by law.
With regard to the next point which the noble Earl raised I think I can satisfy him as to the law. He said that it was very undesirable that a defendant in a case like this, after conviction, should be capable of being licensed in sonic other parish, according to the whim, if I may so put it, or the wish or feeling, of an individual bishop. The law has already provided for that. When a man has been, in the technical term, deprived or declared incapable of preferment under the Clergy Discipline Act, 1892, it is specifically provided in that Act that he cannot officiate, and cannot hold any preferment of any kind, which includes specifically a curacy, unless the bishop of the diocese and the Archbishop of the province in which it is situated are satisfied that the bar upon him ought to be removed. That is the law to-day. Not infrequently when some man—I am not speaking of cases so prominent as this—has offended and been convicted and a brother bishop considers
544
he ought not to be restored to the exercise of his ministry, I have had act with the bishop of the diocese in considering whether or no such a man ought to be licensed or preferred. But whatever might be the opinion of an individual bishop in desiring to do that, he is helpless without the backing of the Archbishop of the province. I think that answers the noble Earl in regard to the danger he appeared to anticipate in this particular case.
I do not know that there is more that I need say upon the subject, but no one would be more thankful than Ito learn that there is some source, at present unknown to me, from which, without the need of legislation for the purpose—or with the need of legislation, if that legislation is expedient and desirable—funds would be forthcoming to relieve bishops from a liability which, I entirely agree, is an exceedingly unfair one, though I do not think the course of justice has been prejudiced thereby, or that bishops have been prevented from doing what they believe to be their duty.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, the Question asked by the noble Earl relates to proceedings under the Clergy Discipline Act. 1892. It may be convenient that I should make it clear what are the classes of case which may arise under that Act, and what is the right of appeal. The noble Earl has spoken of the possibility of limiting, or of imposing conditions upon, the right of appeal. In the first place, the Act provides that if a clergyman is convicted of treason or felony, or, on indictment, of misdemeanour, and on any such conviction is sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour or any greater punishment, or a bastardy order is made against him, or he is found to have committed adultery in a divorce or matrimonial cause, or has an order for judicial separation, or a separation order under the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1878, made against him, the bishop is compelled to declare his preferment vacant, and he becomes incapable of holding any future preferment. No proceedings under this section involve the bishop or any other party in any costs.
If, on the other hand, a clergyman is convicted by a temporal Court of having committed an act which constitutes an ecclesiastical offence but does not fall within the operation of Section 1 to which I have already referred, or if he is alleged

545
to have been guilty of any immoral act, immoral conduct, or immoral habit, or of any offence against the Laws Ecclesiastical, being an offence against morality and not being a question of doctrine or ritual, he becomes liable to prosecution. The prosecution may be instituted by his own parishioners or by the bishop or by any person approved by the bishop. The case is tried in the Consistory Court of the diocese, subject to a power inherent in the bishop to disallow the proceedings if he thinks the complaint too vague or frivolous. There is also a power in the Court to order the prosecutor to give security for costs.
Either party may appeal against the judgment of the Consistory Court in respect of any matter of law. None of your Lordships, I think, would be a party to any hindrance to this right of appeal in respect of a point of law upon a matter so grave. The prosecutor has no appeal in respect of the facts, if the facts are found in favour of the defendant. There is then an end of the matter. But if the defendant desires to appeal in respect of the facts, he may petition the Appellate Court for leave to appeal, and the Court ought to grant leave if it be satisfied that there is a prima facie case. The appeal is, at the option of the appellant., either to the Provincial Court or to His Majesty in Council—that is to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I am fully alive to the unfortunate consequences which may ensue, and have in this case ensued, where the bishop is the prosecutor and is forced, in the course of his duty, to institute the prosecution.
In this case a conviction followed in the Consistory Court, and it then became the plain duty of the bishop to uphold the decision of that Court in a hearing before the Judicial Committee which extended over many days. If that matter had been presented to the judicial Committee without the assistance of learned counsel who appeared for the bishop it may well be that there would have been a failure in justice. I have no doubt that the Bishop of Lincoln has been involved in very heavy expenses, but it is obvious, as the most rev. Primate indicated, that as the law stands at present there is no means whereby this result can be avoided, unless it be by some arrangement made by the authorities of the Church itself, or by benevolent persons, to reimburse the bishop for the costs which he has been forced to expend.
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Lord Phillimore made one suggestion upon which the most rev. Primate justly observed that it would require legislation. If legislation were contemplated in such a matter it could be dealt with in a variety of ways. It is, of course, open to any noble Lord to introduce a Bill for the amendment of the Clergy Discipline Act, and any proposal which may be brought before this House for the purpose of doing so will certainly receive most careful consideration. But I fear that the Bishop has suffered no more severe a fate than befalls many another righteous litigant, though in the latter cases, as a rule, the litigants have the consolation, if it be a consolation, of knowing that they have fallen by the roadside in pursuance of a quarrel of their own and not merely in the discharge of a public duty.
It appears to me very doubtful whether it would be desirable to introduce any limitation upon the right of appeal beyond that which already exists under the Statute, which I have explained. From the statement I have made it will be apparent to the House that, while there is an absolute right of appeal upon a point of law, the right of appeal on facts is most closely limited. An appeal on a point of law in a case of this kind is unlikely to be long or costly, and, as a matter of fact, such appeals have been rare. As to appeals
on facts, when it is remembered that they can only come to be heard if a very experienced tribunal thinks that the appellant has made out a prima facie case, and when the tragic consequences to the appellant of the adverse decision of the Court below are considered, there is great cause for hesitation before any further impediment in the way of appeal can be justified. I myself am strongly opposed to any attempt to introduce such an obstacle.
The Bishop of Lincoln, in this case, has undoubtedly incurred heavy expenses and great hardship; and, as the most rev. Primate has pointed out, other bishops, from time to time, are exposed to similar liabilities in the discharge of a public duty. The most rev. Primate did not suggest—and the times are not very favourable to such a suggestion—that the burden should be discharged from any public source. I should be very unwilling to be understood as denying the hardship, which presses with even greater weight on bishops in these days of a depreciated value of money, shrunken revenues, and so on. It may be

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that a liability of this kind is cruel, and may often be crushing. I do not know that I can say more, but if noble Lords and right rev. Prelates who hold strong views on this matter think it worth while to discuss it among themselves, with the object of making any positive proposal, such a proposal would undoubtedly be listened to with a great deal of sympathy by the Government. Your Lordships can hardly expect that I should be more definite than that on this occasion.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I thank the noble and learned Lord for his reply.

SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA.
LORD SYDENHAM LORD SYDENHAM had given Notice to draw attention to the effects of organised propaganda in this country, and to ask His Majesty's Government whether there are adequate legal powers to enable the introduction of foreign money, or the import and sale of foreign goods, for the purposes of subversive propaganda to be treated as a criminal offence and if not, whether the necessary legislation will be undertaken.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I imagine that the earliest propagandist of evil was the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and though his sphere of operations was limited he was more subtle than all the beasts of the field, and his success was catastrophic. This type of the serpent has been persistent ever since all through history, ancient and modern, and you will find traces of propaganda directed to mislead opinion and policy, but for evident reasons the opportunities and scale of operations have increased in recent years. There have been many foreign ambassadors in this country who have carried on propaganda in the interests of their sovereigns, but all this was a bagatelle compared with what Count Bernstoff accomplished at Washington before and during the war, which has not yet been wholly revealed. The fact is that the opportunities and powers of evil now have been enormously increased. If one compares the methods of Peter the Hermit in the years 1095 and 1096, the same as those now in vogue among the Mullahs on the Indian frontier, with those of the Wolff Bureau throughout the war, one realises what enormous advantages are possessed by the propagandists in these days. Bismarck reduced propaganda to something like a fine art, but his
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successors have gone far beyond him in subtlety and power for evil.
We must recognise now that propaganda carried on from one country for the ruin of others is a new factor in the modern life of nations which it would be madness to ignore. At the present time the British Empire is the main object of attack, and propaganda in the hands of our enemies is their most powerful weapon. Mrs. Webster, in a book which I regard as the most important contribution to history ever made by a woman, has traced back the project of world revolution for 140 years. Probably it goes beyond that; but what is certain is that its spiritual home is in Germany, that in Germany it is really a "key" industry, kept severely for purposes of export. The non-German peoples have contributed very little to the theories on which world revolution is based, but many of them have suffered cruelly in the attempt to carry these theories into practice.
I think it may be said that the British race has contributed nothing whatever to these theories, but, of course, it has produced its quota of communists, syndicalists and anarchists, imbued with the revolutionary mania and anxious to spread imported doctrines in this country. Before the war the object of Germany was to hamper France and England as much as possible by raising industrial strife in both countries. During the war those efforts were intensified to the last degree, and the results were painfully apparent, as the Duke of Northumberland has pointed out; and they were not confined to the miners, from whom very much was hoped and expected. During the war the Germans achieved one colossal success which really changed the whole course of events and gave them a new and powerful leverage of which they are making use to-day. The despatch of Lenin and Bronstein with large sums of money to Russia, to complete the ruin which Kerensky had begun, was a stroke of first class importance, for which, Ludendorf himself has told us, Germany was responsible. The direct effect of that was to make the issue of the war doubtful, to prolong it, and to came the loss of millions of lives. The perfect loyalty of the Czar to the Allies and the fine efforts of the Russian Army in the first period of the war were all brought to nothing; and now the secondary effects are those which we are feeling.
The wreckers of Russia know perfectly well that they are doomed unless they can impose their communist theories on other countries, and especially on the British Empire—unless they can accomplish the project of world revolution. Probably, therefore, the main propagandist efforts are now directed from. Moscow, with the
co-operation of German and Irish agencies working together in America. Surely we can see at home, and in India, Ireland, Egypt and Palestine, the effects of that propaganda, and elsewhere the same deadly work is being carried on by different methods. I received a letter from New Zealand last week which says:
"There is a very great importation of revolutionary propaganda into the Dominion."
Both in New Zealand and in Australia there have been special attempts to infect the coal-mining population. At the bottom of all this there must be money, and that is why I have ventured to raise this Question to-day. We know perfectly well that money is being liberally expended here, and the noble Earl the Leader of the House, in one of his Notes to the Bolshevik Government, spoke of—
"an attempt to subsidise a campaign against the British Constitution."
The presence here for many months of the Russian Commercial Mission has greatly facilitated this attempt.
The second coal strike, following so closely upon the first, has been the greatest disaster that has ever befallen our industries. It is the most obviously political and revolutionary strike that we have ever known. Only after more than nine months was the question of wages allowed to be discussed, and the coal miners have been carefully kept in the dark as regards the wages which they could have obtained by frank negotiations with the coal owners. The plan of the coal strike to be supported by the Triple Alliance was conceived by revolutionaries and inspired and assisted from abroad, and it accords exactly with the project of world revolution. The decision of the miners' executive not to allow the mines to be de-watered would appear idiotic if that had not been their object. This great plan has failed only because the British manual working class have so far always been the despair of the foreign revolutionaries; but if it had succeeded, as was hoped, and if starvation on a large scale had overtaken our people—the starvation which was arranged
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carefully in the French Revolution and also in the Russian Revolution—we cannot tell how far the hungry masses might have gone. But the plan has caused widespread suffering, inflicted a blow upon our industry from which I do not believe it can ever completely recover, and bankrupted the unions themselves. Our sympathies must be, and will be, with the great majority of the working coal miners who, under the iniquitous card vote system, were not allowed to express their opinions, and who are never permitted to have a free and secret ballot.
Does anyone believe that there is not a Communist Red Revolution behind the Sinn Fein movement in Ireland, even if the dupes themselves do not know it? And can anyone suppose that the rebellion would have lasted so long as it has if there had not been foreign assistance and encouragement behind it? An Irish Republican Army, living upon the country, would soon have become abhorred by all the people, and the terror existing in Ireland to-day is exactly the same as the terror created in the French Revolution and, more recently, in the Russian Revolution—the terror exercised by the few upon the imagination of the many.
In this country the propaganda for corrupting opinion has mainly been based upon the teachings of Karl Marx. This man, whose real name was Mordecai, was expelled from Germany, and he settled in this country, where he was financed entirely by a German capitalist. As Mrs. Webster has shown, he was a shameless plagiarist and a pan-German agent, who did his best to help to ruin France in 7870, and who hated and despised the British working classes, though he may perhaps have infected a small part of our intelligentsia. While lie lived here lie had no influence, but latterly his writings have become the text-books of the Revolutionary Party in this country, and the utterances of many of our Labour leaders seem to be wholly inspired by them. Only last week Mr. Gosling, who is regarded as a moderate, used the following words:—
"In the struggle between the organised workers and the organised capitalists the war is never at an end."
That is the precise doctrine of Karl Marx, the doctrine which he stole from the world revolutionaries and embodied in his teaching. Neither he nor they have ever explained what is to happen to the working

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classes when capital, as Mr. Hodges expects and hopes, collies crashing to the ground.
It is a remarkable fact that, with very few exceptions, these people have never shown the smallest concern for the welfare of the working-classes whom they have exploited. They demand a class war, though many of them were pacifists when it was a question of defending their country against Germany. What may happen during this war on capital, and what will happen when it ends, are matters that do not interest them in the slightest degree. If Marx originated nothing himself, he learned three great lessons during his stay here and reported them to his fellow conspirators abroad—(1) that world revolution could never be accomplished unless Great Britain were involved; (2) that the British people would never make the revolution themselves, and that they must therefore be helped to make it; and (3) that the revolution must be begun in Ireland, which, as your Lordships know, has happened.
This revolutionary propaganda has most certainly been paid for to a great extent from foreign sources, and it is to foreign agencies that we owe, in a great measure, the grave position in which we find ourselves to-day. May I earnestly press upon the Government that the State has a right to use any means in its power to protect our people against the poison which is being spread with the aid of foreign money? It is admitted that foreign funds are coining into this country, and that foreign agents are at work. The Bolshevists themselves have stated that £23,000 a month is being spent here, and in another place it was explained by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office that lecturers, paid from £5 to £10 a week; were going about the country preaching revolution.
I do not believe those salaries come from British sources. The noble Duke, with very great ability and fearlessness, has exposed what is now going on, and not one word of what he has said has been, or I believe ever will he, refuted. The Irish Draft Treaty with the Bolsheviks which the Government has lately published shows that very close relations have existed for some time between those two revolutionary bodies. Doctor McCartain stated his intention of asking for 50,000 rifles for Ireland, and no doubt he expected to get them. It is now stated that no Treaty exists because no Treaty has been signed.
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No Treaty has been signed—no one ever said that it had—but there is a Treaty between the Bolsheviks and Afghanistan which is distinctly inimical to Great Britain, and that Treaty has been signed.
It may be said that it is useless to legislate, because we cannot find out anything about these funds. That really is not so. We know that some time ago a large number of Chinese bonds were allowed to be sold here. We also know that £75,000 worth of jewellery, mostly stolen from murdered men and women, was sold in London; and we know who received the money. The subsequent distribution of this money could certainly have been ascertained. We know that one London daily paper is claimed by the Bolsheviks as being "our organ," and we know that other publications are now being subsidised. The police know the proceedings of some of the members of the Commercial Mission who made a tour in the north, certainly without any trade objects. Scotland Yard knows much more than that, and if it had been free to follow up its knowledge, I believe that it would not only have detected incoming funds of a suspicious character, but would have traced their ultimate destination. Of course, a much stricter control of immigrants is required than now exists, but it would not be right for me to say anything about that at the present time.
Clearly, the signing of the Trade Agreement with the Bolsheviks has made the operations of foreign propagandists easier. The Agreement contains this very significant condition:
"The Russian Soviet Government refrains from any attempt by military, diplomatic, or any other form of action or propaganda to encourage any of the peoples of Asia in any form of hostile action against British interests, especially in India and the independent State of Afghanistan."
That curiously leaves out England and Ireland, but there is a further explanation later, and that is—
"It is understood that the term conducting any official propaganda' includes the giving by either party of assistance to any propaganda conducted outside its own borders."
That is much more explicit, but I do not think that anyone would trust the murderers of Russia., and meanwhile immense harm has been done by the close connection between the Commercial Mission and some of the revolutionary leaders in this country.
The setting up of the Council of Action was done under Bolshevist advice, and that was a most effective form of propaganda. When Rosenfeld returned from London to Moscow, he stated that "the Council of Action has all the time supported us in the negotiations with Lloyd George." Of course it supported him! He went on to say: "The Council of Action has ordered a strike. The miners' strike which began on October 25 will show that we do not stand alone." In other words, this German revolutionary claimed the existence of an offensive and defensive alliance with the Labour leaders of this country.
What is going on here is repeated in America, where there is an organised propaganda among the immigrants directly they come in. Last autumn a remarkable sermon was preached by Dr. Hillis, a successor of Henry Ward Beecher, at the Plymouth Church, Brooklyn. It contains these words—
" Scarcely have these foreigners landed at the railroad stations than they receive a card published in six languages containing essentially these statements: Immigrants, remember that this is a capitalistic Government. Remember it is a dirty and rotten Government, where the capitalist will exploit your life. The only way you can get a job is to join a radical society or union. Join some revolutionary society and help us overthrow this wicked capitalistic Government.' "
Dr. Hillis went on to say—
"Now what men sow they reap. Sow wheat, you reap sheaves. Sow thistles, you reap thistles. Sow sparks, you reap conflagrations. Sow hatred of this Republic, you reap revolution."
That is very sound doctrine, and I only wish it was more effectively preached here. It is hatred of our Constitution which is now being preached. The modus operandi of propaganda, in one of its aspects, was most lucidly explained in a report by the Labour Research Department, published after the railway strike of 1919. That strike is already almost forgotten, although it did. untold harm and caused the loss of the lives of quite a considerable number of people. This "Research Department," with the sanction of Unity House, decided to spend £2,000, afterwards reduced to £1,500, per day, on "publicity advertisements." This is a large sum to take from the contributions of working-men who have no voice in the matter. The report explains the astute way in which the Press was handled, and there was one particularly artful appeal to the London clergy, using the name of a
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well-known right rev. Prelate. That appeal was not altogether without effect. The propagandists claimed complete success for the manoeuvre, and they said that "before the strike ended the railway men had rallied nine-tenths of the industrial workers to their side." That was the effect of skilful propaganda. It was also pointed out that the Government had been placed in the unhappy position of "a beetle on its back." This report should be studied by everyone who wishes to obtain an insight into the clever manner in which propaganda is carried out.
But the world revolutionary propaganda is even more clever, because it is made to appeal to all classes by concealing from some what it impresses most upon others.
Thus, it makes special efforts to capture the religious bodies, some members of which evidently have no idea of whither they are being led. I hope I have not wearied your Lordships in trying to show that this is a most serious matter, fraught with peril to the British Empire. The war on capital, which is the class war proclaimed by Marx and by much earlier world revolutionaries, if successful, would bring ruin on this country, deeper and. darker than the ruin which has fallen on Russia, because of the very small food resources which we possess. If the poor Russian workmen are starved in a country which easily fed itself, and a part of Europe besides, what would happen here? War on Christianity is being waged at the same time, by the same persons, and by the same methods, and it is also an integral part of the world revolution. If successful, it would end in the downfall of civilisation and a general relapse of the world into hopeless barbarism.
When I raised this Question some time ago, the noble Earl the Leader of the House said that it was engaging the attention of the Government. Since then a good many arrests have taken place of persons who arc making revolutionary speeches, but I have not seen any attempts to stop the application of foreign funds to the corruption of our own good people. Whatever liberty we permit to citizens of British race, surely we have a right to say to foreign revolutionaries: "You shall not have free trade in subversive propaganda, directed to bring about red ruin and the breaking up of the laws in this old country." I beg to ask my Question.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): The noble Lord who has asked this Question has given us a most interesting and able speech, in which he has discussed the question of the propaganda both in peace, and war in this country and abroad, and in America and in the East; and he has put the Question to His Majesty's Government as to whether there are adequate legal powers to enable the introduction of foreign money, or the import and sale of foreign goods, for the purposes of subversive propaganda, to be treated as a criminal offence. I will attempt to address myself more particularly to the Question which the noble Lord has put to the Government, and not to follow him in the discussion and the illustrations which he has given us of the methods of propaganda undertaken in this country and elsewhere.
The answer to the noble Lord's Question turns on the definition of the term "subversive propaganda." That term might be held by some people to cover many actions that are not contrary to the law of this country. The definitions of seditious intention, seditious conspiracy, and seditious libel, are contained in the Laws of England, Vol. 9, secs. 909,901 and 902, edited by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, from which it is clear that, broadly speaking, it is illegal to attempt to influence the Government of this country by any violent means, or to incite others to do so. Thus, it would certainly be seditious to carry on a propaganda having the object of throwing the deliberations of Parliament into confusion, or of rendering them impossible by destroying or burning down the Houses of Parliament. But if the object of the propaganda is to show that the Crown has been misled, or to point out defects in the Government or Constitution, and how they can be remedied by reformation, or to incite persons to attempt by lawful means, the alteration of any matter under Church or State, the action is not illegal.
Therefore, we say that the dissemination of any views is not illegal, unless it is accompanied by incitements to enforce those views by violence, or in some way which comes within the common law relating to seditious conspiracy or seditious libel. Thus, if any person is detected in bringing foreign money or foreign goods into this country for propaganda purposes, which can be shown to aim at accomplishing its
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ends by some form of illegal compulsion; or if any person so acting is guilty of seditious conspiracy; or if any person distributes seditious libels, the guilty person can be prosecuted under the common law.
Now, I think it will be generally agreed that the principles which underlie our common law on this subject should be maintained, but there is also general agreement that all practical steps should be taken to enforce the law strictly, and to prevent the importation of illegal publications, or money from foreign propaganda funds, into this country, to promote revolutionary and illegal movements. I may tell your Lordships that the attention of the authorities, that is to say of my right hon. friend's Department and of the police authorities, is very much alive to the danger which may be caused by evil disposed persons promoting or inciting others to revolutionary and illegal movements, and the Police are watching the matter with the utmost care, with a view to the strict enforcement of the law. But it would be clearly undesirable that I should go into any particulars as to what particular action the police authorities are taking in this direction.
As to the question of strengthening the law in regard to the prohibition of the receipt of foreign money in this country intended to promote revolutionary movements, or to sustain revolutionary propaganda, I may refer the noble Lord to an answer given by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State to Major Kelley, in another place on May 12, in which he said that the Government is considering the possibility of introducing legislation with this object in view. I may add that the Government fully realise that the matter is a very important one, and we are closely examining it and giving it every possible attention.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When was the answer given?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: On May 12 last. As regards the importation of publications and the powers possessed by the Government, I may perhaps call attention to the special powers of search which are provided by Article 3 of the Aliens Order, 1920. The noble Lord, I think, referred to the question of immigration, and I gather that he did not consider that the Order was as strictly enforced as it might be, but I think I may reassure him on that

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point. The Regulations are strict, and they are strictly enforced. By Article 3 any alien landing in this country has to make a declaration whether he is carrying letters or printed matter. Of course, the declaration may not be of any particular value, but the immigration officer may search the immigrant with a view to ascertaining whether his statements are true. Use can be, and is being, made of this power to prevent the importation of publications which contravene the law—I mean seditious publications. Those of your Lordships who have read the Regulations may also be aware that there are provisions, under Part I, which prevent any aliens landing in this country without the leave of an immigration officer, acting under the directions of the Secretary of State. Thus, a double check is imposed on aliens who may try to introduce undesirable literature into this country.
The same Rules and Orders empower the Secretary of State to close clubs and restaurants frequented by aliens with criminal or disloyal associations. And the Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, impose special restrictions on any alien, or any class of alien; and he also may make an Order requiring an alien to leave, and remain thereafter outside, the United Kingdom. Therefore. I think, it is obvious that the powers which the Secretary of State enjoys in regard to this matter are of an extensive nature. They give full power to enable the police to exercise the strictest control over undesirables. I can only conclude by saying that the Government are fully alive to the need of vigilance in this matter, and are exercising it most strictly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I observed that the noble Earl in his reply called your Lordships' attention to an answer which had been made in another place on May 12. We are now at June 15. I must say I was a little surprised that the noble Earl was not able to add somewhat to an answer which was given a month ago. Of course, if it were an ordinary matter of legislation, not of an urgent character, one would quite understand the deliberate character of the delay, but, as a matter of fact, this revolutionary propaganda is an urgent matter. Your Lordships are aware of the evidence which has been laid before the public on this subject by my noble friend, the Duke of Northumberland, and which has not yet been confuted in any way.
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I know that the Government have many things to consider, but it seems to me that a delay of a month should have been able to produce rather a fuller reply on this point from my noble friend opposite than a mere reference to the former answer. What have the Government been doing in the meantime? What conclusions have the Home Office come to as to the possibility of stopping the importation of foreign money which is directed to revolutionary ends? It may be that the Government have ascertained in the meantime that the information which has been laid before the public has been exaggerated. If that is so, let them say so; but, if the facts are true which have been laid before the public, then I think; considering that it is a very urgent matter indeed, we ought to have found that the Home Office had considered this matter, not merely deliberately, but with a view to coming to some conclusion.
The other observation I would make to the Government is to direct their attention to the evil education which is being given to children in this country on behalf of these extreme people. I draw a very distinct line between propaganda for adults and propaganda for children. That is surely recognised in our law in analogous cases: we should not allow dangerous things to be sold to children which we might permit to be sold to adults. We live in a land of liberty, and it will be said that a grown-up person is able to take care of himself. Even in his case there are limitations in the sale of poison, but at any rate he is allowed considerably greater liberty than a child. And yet there are institutions in this country where children are subverted by a recognised and continued system of education, inculcating doctrines of the most subversive order, and of the most extreme character, upon political, moral and religious subjects.
I am not speaking of mere differences of opinion. I am aware that they must all be allowed to have very full range. But I mean that doctrines are inculcated which, by the vast majority of our countrymen, are condemned as absolutely abominable Is that to be allowed? Have the Government considered it? Have they considered the Socialist Sunday Schools which exist in Glasgow, and, I believe, in London? If they have considered the question, at what conclusion have they arrived? I put these points tentatively to the Government, and I rather hope that some noble

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Lord sitting on that Bench, now or on a future occasion, will be able to give a fuller reply than that which has been given this afternoon.
LORD SYDENHAM: I beg to thank the noble Earl for his reply. I gather that the gist of it is that we have great powers, but that it is very difficult to apply them. One understands perfectly that you would not wish to penalise any political effort by our own people to attain their objects by constitutional methods. But can we not differentiate against the foreigner when he seeks to subvert the Constitution, which we have built up in so many years?

MANDATE FOR PALESTINE.
LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON had on the Paper a Motion to resolve—
" That it should be the duty of the Government to inform the League of Nations that the wishes of the people of Palestine had not been consulted as regards the Mandate for Palestine, and that therefore Article 22 of the Convention has not been complied with."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, at the outset I should like to congratulate the noble Duke (the Duke of Sutherland) who, I understand, is going to answer me this afternoon, upon his taking his seat for the first time on the front Ministerial Bench. He is already High Commissioner for Scotland, and I dare say that this marks the beginning of a career of great political distinction. The matter of my Question is in the form of a Motion, but I think it has gained added force in view of the remarkable speech made yesterday by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in another place. Referring to Palestine he then said:—
"The difficulty about this promise of a national home for the Jews in Palestine is that it conflicts with our regular policy of consulting the wishes of the people in the Mandated territories."
His phraseology is not exactly correct, because, by Article 22 of the Convention, it is not a question of whether we wish to consult the wishes of the people, but it is an obligation imposed upon the Mandatory Power to consult the populations interested.
The short paragraph bearing on this point reads as follows:—
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"Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a state of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised. The wishes of those communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
My noble friend, the Leader of the House, whom I should like to congratulate on his elevation in the Peerage, admitted last year, when I addressed the House on this Question, that the people of Palestine had never been consulted as to who should hold the Mandate for their country. He said he had no doubt that the wishes of the people were that Great Britain should hold the Mandate; at the same time, no official inquiry had been held in any form. But he admitted that even if they did wish to have us as the Mandatory Power that wish would be very much qualified by the fact that our Mandate would contain a provision that a national home for the Jews should be established in Palestine. I think he was quite right in saying that, because whilst it might be quite possible to give to a child a spoonful of jam containing a lot of noxious medicines, the child would not be pleased with the jam in that condition. That is practically an analogy in regard to this Mandate as held by us.
I might remind the House that an International Commission on the part of France, Italy, the United States of America and ourselves, was appointed to ascertain the views of the people of Palestine, but in the end the United States of America were the only people who sent any Commissioner to make inquiries. As I have before mentioned in this House, the Report has never been made public. Therefore, the fact remains that, in defiance of Article 22 of the Convention, the wishes of the people of Palestine have never been ascertained. It may have been impracticable, or even undesirable, at that time, to find out what their wishes were, but it seems to me to be extraordinarily innocuous to ask that this patent fact should be made known to the League of Nations, the body which is responsible for the carrying out of the Mandate in future.
I cannot see any possible objection to informing them of the fact. If they are not so informed, it is possible that some unpleasantness may arise in Palestine in the future, the League of Nations may interfere in some form or another, and the people of Palestine may say: "We do not admit that we are under the Mandate at all, because our wishes have never been

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ascertained." Therefore, the fact that the League of Nations were not in possession of all the circumstances of the case might possibly circumscribe or stultify their action. I hope that the noble Duke who will answer me will be able to say that this very simple matter will be carried out on my suggestion, and that the League of Nations will be properly apprised of our exact position in regard to our holding of the Mandate for Palestine. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, "That it should be the duty of the Government to inform the League of Nations that the wishes of the people of Palestine had not been consulted as regards the Mandate for Palestine, and that therefore Article 22 of the Convention has not been complied with."—(Lord Lamington.)
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, the noble Lord has revived a subject which has already been discussed in your Lordships' House. I would mention in particular the debate on April 20 last, in which my noble friend the Marquess of Londonderry stated the case on behalf of His Majesty's Government. If noble Lords will refer to Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations they will see that the words used are:
" The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
Nothing is said in the Article about consulting the communities as to the terms of the Mandate. Yet that is the Question which is now before the Council of the League. The Council has no concern with the selection of Mandatories, which, as was clearly laid down in Article 94 of the Treaty of Sevres, rests with the principal Allied Powers. In these circumstances it would not be relevant to the consideration of the question now before the Council to bring to its notice the point raised in the noble Lord's Motion.
His Majesty's Government have, however, no desire to evade the question whether Article 22 of the Covenant has or has not been complied with. The point was fully dealt with by the noble Earl the Leader of the House in the debate on March 14. The noble Earl then explained the extent to which the inhabitants of Palestine and other Mandated territories of the Middle East had been consulted, and the limits within which the principal Allied Powers found themselves confined in the
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selection of Mandatories. He referred in particular to the declaration made by Mr. Balfour in November, 1917, in which His Majesty's Government stated that they viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and that they would use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object. That declaration, as I need not remind your Lordships, was subsequently embodied in Article 95 of the Treaty of Sevres and thus acquired the formal sanction of the principal Allied Powers.
As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies stated yesterday in another place, there can be no question of a departure from the policy of that declaration. It necessarily limits and prescribes our action in Palestine. It would be useless to pretend that the policy is at present popular with the Arabs, who constitute the majority of the population, or that the carrying out of such a policy can be regarded as in accordance with their wishes. But apart from that question, in which all the principal Allied Powers are committed, there is no reason to suppose that the people of Palestine do not desire the continuance of the British connection.
Perhaps I may be allowed to quote the language used on this point on March 14 by the noble Earl the Leader of the House, who said:—
"If the question of the Jews be left on one side I do not think that there is any doubt at all that, given the desirability of a Mandatory, and that I think will be universally conceded, the Arabs of Palestine would sooner have the British than they would have any other foreign State. Therefore I think, so far as the selection of ourselves is concerned, the noble Lord need not feel any doubt upon that point."
I am aware that reference has been made in this House to the existence of an American Report, drawn up by an American Commission after visiting the spot, tending to show that the people of Palestine would prefer the United States to Great Britain as their Mandatory.
As was explained in the debate on April 20, the Report has never been published and there is, in fact, no copy of it in the possession of His Majesty's Government. The noble Lord who has moved this Resolution expressed the opinion on that occasion that we might at least inform the League of Nations as to the existence of this Report. I am afraid I do not agree

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with him. The Report, whatever may be its merits, is not relevant to the question now under consideration by the Council of the League of Nations, which, as I have already explained, relates solely to the terms of the Mandate and not to the selection of the Mandatory. I can see no reason why His Majesty's Government should go out of their way to draw the attention of the Council to a document which has never been communicated officially to themselves and the contents of which, so far as they are known to us, have no bearing upon the problems with which the Council are now dealing.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Duke for his answer, but I confess I cannot agree that His Majesty's Government are not evading the point of my very simple question when they say that the League of Nations are not concerned with the acceptance of the Mandate. I want to give the League of Nations direct information, which, so far as I can see, cannot do any possible harm, It may not do any good, but it cannot influence their future action adversely, while it will put them in full possession of all the circumstances that bear on this case. This might be of use to them possibly on some future occasion. In the circumstances, however, I do not wish to put the House to the trouble of a Division, though, I confess, the answer is extremely unsatisfactory.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SITUATION IN PALESTINE.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I have now to ask His Majesty's Government whether they can make a statement as to the present situation of affairs in Palestine, with especial reference to immigration and to appointments in the Administration. About a week ago the noble Lord, Lord Sydenham, asked a variety of Questions upon this and other points, and at that time he received no reply at all upon several of them. With regard to the question of immigration we now know that a change of policy has recently taken place in Palestine.
Yesterday, the Secretary of State for the Colonies said that up to the present about 7,000 immigrants had entered Palestine. I myself thought the number was much larger than that, but allowance has been
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made for a number who entered and, apparently extremely disappointed with what they found, quickly went back to the United States. These persons numbered about 3,000. They did not find the land flowing with milk and honey, and considered themselves far better off in the new world than in their old home. Mr. Churchill went on to say that on no account were His Majesty's Government or the Government in Palestine going to stop this Jewish immigration. I understand that the Arabs and others do not in any way protest against immigration which comes about by natural means, but they do object to the influx of a large alien population who, they fear, will in time swamp the resident population. Undoubtedly that would eventually be so.
Mr. Churchill dwelt very largely upon the wonderful results produced by the Jewish colonies which were already established in Palestine, and said on no account would they be allowed to be wrecked. That seemed to me to be a gratuitous insult to the Arabs, for these Jewish colonies have existed there for thirty or forty years under Mahomedan rule, and so far as I know there has never been any attempt to wreck or destroy them. It is only the large claims made by Zionism that have inflamed and alarmed the Arab population regarding what might occur in the future. For instance, last year there were very fair crops, and yet the Arab population, who had for the most part produced those crops, were not allowed to export them, presumably for the reason that it was necessary, in the opinion of the Government, to retain the crops in the country for the sustenance of the large influx of Jews. That is an illustration of how the questions of immigration and administration hang together.
One other point mentioned by Lord Sydenham was that prohibition has been imposed on the sale of land to any persons but those who are Palestinians. This is preventing the Arab population from dealing with their land as they would naturally deal with it. All these instances of fresh legislation interfering with the customs of the Arabs tend to create in the Arabs a great mistrust of the new Administration. As to the personnel of the Administration, I am told on good authority that two-thirds of the posts in the Department of the High Commissioner are held by Jews. The heads of the Judicial Depart-

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meat and of the Department of Industry and Commerce are Jews. In the Administration of the Government of Jerusalem in 1919 there were two Jew clerks. There are now nine. In the Public Works Department all the clerks are Jews, except one, who is a. Christian. In the Accounts Department an ex-member of the Zionist Commission has been appointed to a high post over the heads of the regular staff. In the Treasury there are six new clerks, all Jews. Out of 2,400 Government officials one-sixth are British, of whom many are Jews. One would naturally think that the Government of a Mandated country would, so far as possible, be run by the people of that country. A comparison has been made with Syria. In Syria, under the French, there is one judicial officer as compared to sixteen British in Palestine. Palestine, of course, is more a country than is Syria.
As regards the non-civil administration, it is proposed to raise two battalions in Palestine, one composed of Jews and the other of Christians and Moslems. That is an unfair proposal when it is remembered the Jews are only about 9 per cent. of the total population. In such circumstances, to give them half of the defence power of the country is held by the Arabs to be grossly unfair. Then there is a matter of railway administration. The stationmasters are generally Moslems, but in every case a linesman has been appointed. I do not know what his duties are, but he is invariably a Jew, and. has equal pay with the stationmaster, and a right of direct communication with headquarters.
I should like to call the attention of the noble Duke to a statement in the Morning Post of June 10. I do not expect him to give me an answer upon it to-day. The statement is to the effect that from a village in Bethlehem 7,000 out of an Arab population of 14,000 have emigrated. I confess that that seems almost an exaggeration, but perhaps the noble Duke will inquire as to its correctness.
In these observations I am not making any criticism of the High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel. I do not think that I have heard anyone, Moslem or Christian, who has questioned his absolute integrity of conduct throughout; in fact, I have a copy of a letter sent to me which speaks of the Arab belief in his fairness, consideration and conciliatory views towards those entrusted to his care. Of course, he is put
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in a very difficult situation. He has a strong Zionist faction to contend against; he himself is a Jew, and, I think, a strong Zionist; and to hold the balance equally between all parties lie should ix impartial to all. Still, he has done his duty extraordinarily well, and I have not heard any criticisms directed against him personally.
There is one incident relating to the question of administration to which I must refer. There was a notable occurrence at Haifa. It was referred to by the noble Lord. We have not heard whether the facts have been correctly stated. It concerns a deputation from the Arabs which wished to wait upon Mr. Churchill, but were refused an interview. A demonstration was held in Haifa afterwards, and, some incidents occurring, the police fired upon the demonstrators. Two or three people were killed. The result was that feelings were inflamed. A further procession was held by Christians and Moslems, a joint procession, a thing which has never occurred in the East before, and the Christian bishop preached in the mosque and the Mahomedan priest preached in the cathedral. That is a remarkable happening which shows the intense feeling which has developed in Palestine.
No doubt, it is due somewhat to the extreme vagueness of the words "a national home for the Jews." They are very elastic; they may mean so much, or they may mean so little. A short time ago Sir Herbert Samuel made a speech in which he used these words—
" The words of the Balfour Declaration, the real sense of which has perhaps not been conveyed by the translation of the English words into Arabic, mean that the Jews, a people who are scattered throughout the world but whose hearts are always turned to Palestine, should be enabled to found there their home, and that some among them, within the limits that are fixed by the numbers and interests of the present population, should come to Palestine, in order to help by their resources and efforts to develop the country to the advantage of all the inhabitants."
His words are of a conciliatory character, and as the writer of the letter, a gentleman of high character and wide knowledge of the leaders of religious thought in the
East, says—
"If these words had been said three years ago they would have sated an infinity of heart-burning and bitterness., and that disastrous loss of British prestige which is the most serious handicap in the carrying out of the Mandate."
The most serious result is that we have lost caste in the East; and this fact is

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emphasised by Mrs. Forbes. It has been the uncertainty as to what we were going to do in Palestine that has raised the hopes of the Zionists, and, on the other hand, has created great fear and alarm on the part of the Arabs. In Mr. Churchill's remarkable speech yesterday in another place —I agree with much that he said with regard to Mesopotamia —he admitted the extraordinary difficulty of the Government in Palestine and glided gently over the bad feeling which has been engendered in that country. I believe that if there had been a more outspoken declaration, a more exact definition as to what we were going to do in Palestine, things would have been more hopeful than they are now.
I am accused in the Jewish Press of being anti-Semitic. Not in the least. When Mr. Balfour's Declaration was first made, I attended the demonstration in the Opera House and spoke in approval at an overflow meeting. At that time I had not realised the tremendous pledges we had given to the Arabs, nor the intensity of their feeling with regard to the Declaration. It is quite untrue to say that I am actuated by any hostility to the Jews. I am actuated by a wish to make good our pledges to the Arabs who have been our faithful allies. I do not wish to see us committed to a situation which will be fraught with great difficulty in the future and out of which we are not going to get the slightest advantage or credit. It would have been much better if we had set up an Arab Administration, given ample guarantees for a national home for the Jews and security for all other religious communities. I hope the noble Duke will be able to make a statement as to the exact position of the immigration law, which I understand has been curtailed or changed in order to meet Arab feeling, and some information as to the staffing of administrative posts by Jews.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, we have listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord, who has displayed great knowledge of an intricate and difficult subject, The Secretary of State for the Colonies yesterday made a full statement on the subject of Palestine in another place. In these circumstances I may perhaps be permitted to confine myself to the two specific points mentioned by the noble Lord. Your Lordships are no doubt aware that in consequence of the most unfortunate disturbances at
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Jaffa at the beginning of last month the High Commissioner of Palestine temporarily prohibited the entry of all immigrants, whether Jewish or not. into Palestine. This step was approved by His Majesty's Government as a purely temporary measure pending a reconsideration of the whole situation. There is no doubt that, largely owing to a misunderstanding as to the scale on which the entry of immigrants into Palestine was to be permitted, the feeling of the non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine was strongly opposed to this policy and deeply apprehensive of its possible results.
Furthermore, owing to the delay in the granting of the Mandate, it has so far been impossible for the Palestine Government to raise the necessary funds for capital expenditure on the very necessary public works which it has in contemplation. It has also been impossible for private firms and persons to make a start on various large development schemes which are in contemplation. A solution of the latter difficulty has now, it is hoped, been found, but the net result of these difficulties has been that the large fields for employment which it had been hoped to open up to prospective immigrants into Palestine have not yet come into existence. In view of these circumstances your Lordships will, I am sure, agree that His Majesty's Government had no alternative but to approve the temporary suspension of immigration, which was advised by the High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, himself an ardent Zionist.
One result of this sudden suspension has, of course, been to cause grave hardships to those intending immigrants who had actually left their homes en route for Palestine, and were either on the high seas or at the port of embarkation when immigration was suspended. Two officers of the Palestine Department of Immigration have now gone to Constantinople and Trieste, the two ports chiefly affected, and it is proposed to admit to Palestine forthwith the comparatively small number of immigrants who were actually en route for Palestine at the time when immigration was suspended. The number of these cases is, I understand, about 1,500. When these have, been admitted and absorbed, it is proposed, in conjunction with the Zionist organization, to admit only as many immigrants as can be absorbed into the industrial and agricultural life of the

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community. When this proviso has been clearly understood by the local population the greater part of the present agitation will, I hope, die down. On the other hand, the great body of Jews throughout the world will, I am sure, agree, if they give the matter the serious consideration which it deserves, that it would not be in their interest, either as a community or as individuals, that large numbers of immigrants should enter Palestine with no prospect of employment or means of livelihood awaiting them there.
A good many rather exaggerated statements have recently got into circulation to the effect that a large number of Jewish immigrants into Palestine are infected with communist ideas. This, happily, is not the case; on the other hand, a smaller proportion of recent immigrants have proved to be so infected. It must be remembered that these immigrants have come from a country where it is an age-long tradition that the Government is the enemy and not the friend of the people, or, at any rate, of the Jewish section of the community. It is, therefore, hardly surprising that some immigrants have found it difficult to adapt themselves to the unfamiliar conditions in Palestine. As a result of the disturbance in Jaffa, a careful search has taken place, and all aliens known to hold communist views have been expelled from the country. Steps have also been taken to ensure that when immigration recommences, persons who prove to hold views of this nature shall, so far as possible, be excluded.
As regards the second point raised by the noble Lord, the present situation is that the Palestine Administration is at present, perhaps, somewhat over-staffed. This was, of course, quite inevitable, for in order to get the Administration launched on sound lines it was necessary to equip each. Department with a strong staff of vigorous and capable officers, it is expected, however, that in the course of the present financial year a certain number of the higher paid posts in the Administration will be abolished. It has been the constant endeavour of His Majesty's Government and of the High Commissioner to appoint Palestinians whenever possible to vacancies as they occur, and as suitable candidates can be found. There are already a large number of Palestinians, Christian, Jew and Moslem, in the service of the Administration, and it is hoped that the proportion will increase as the years go on.
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I think the noble Lord was slightly misinformed as to the number of Jewish officers in the Administration. Of high officials, there are, as far as I am aware, only three —namely, the High Commissioner, the Legal Secretary, and the Director of the Department of Commerce and Industry. This is a very small number compared with the size of the Administration. It is true that the proportion between Jewish and other local junior officers is somewhat in favour of the former, when compared with the proportion between the Jewish and other sections of the population. This is, however, inevitable, in view of the difficulty of finding Christian or Moslem Palestinians who will accept and are qualified to occupy these posts.
VISCOUNT BRYCE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Duke who has just spoken whether he can give; the House any information upon one point of some interest in connection with his statement, I itself extremely interesting. Are any inquiries or surveys now being taken through Palestine with the object of ascertaining what is the area of the unoccupied or scantily populated areas in which it would be possible to settle immigrants? The. difficulty, as your Lordships know, is that in Palestine, while some areas —such as the middle and lower Jordan Valley and the coastal plain along the Mediterranean, which is very dry —are at present very thinly peopled, the rest of the country is pretty well populated. It is, of course, very difficult to introduce into peopled I areas any considerable number of immigrants, and it is not unnatural that much I disquiet and anxiety should have arisen I among the existing population, which is chiefly Moslem, upon that subject; but there are unoccupied areas. These areas might be rendered habitable and fertile if there were a proper supply of water. Water might be provided from the Jordan hills along the western side, by the construction of dams and reservoirs, or in the Jordan Valley, by the construction of a dam, which would impound the waters for the production of electric power and also for the irrigation of the middle and lower parts of the valley. But these things are rather in the distance, and would require the expenditure of a certain amount of capital.
Apart from that, there are some areas which are more thinly peopled than others, and if the. Government desire to resume the

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policy of admitting immigration, it would seem convenient that they should occupy the intermediate time in endeavouring to make inquiries into the subject. Perhaps they are already making these inquiries and are inaugurating surveys to see in what parts the state of the population will allow immigrants to be introduced. I suggest that that would be a very useful thing to do in the meantime. It might have another good effect. It might allow intending immigrants, and their friends in Europe and America, to know that steps were being taken to allow immigration as soon as it was possible that immigration could be resumed. It might also tend to reassure the existing settled population by showing that the Government, when they did allow immigration to be resumed, were contemplating the introduction of it as far as possible into the areas already unoccupied, thus avoiding the difficulties that would arise if large bo dies of new immigrants were introduced into places where the population was already pretty nearly as thick as the land would support. For these reasons it may be an exceedingly useful course to take such steps as I venture to suggest, and I should be glad to know from His Majesty's Government whether any surveys of this kind are in the contemplation of the authorities now in control.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I regret that it is not possible at the present moment to inform the noble Viscount whether such inquiries as he suggests are actually taking place, but I will find out, and I hope shortly to be able to inform the noble Viscount privately, or in your Lordships' House.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I have already spoken at some length on the situation in Palestine and I do not propose to occupy more than a few minutes of your Lordships' time on this occasion. Since I spoke, however, I have received a great deal more information, which goes to show that the riots were not confined to Jaffa, but extended to at least three other places, where they were very violent and caused great loss of life. From a letter which I have received from a Palestinian, I learn that the Superintendent of Police stated that some of the Jews and Jewish police were armed. This letter states that three and a half tons of dynamite were discovered in a single Jewish house in Jaffa, and that
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arms and ammunition were found in many other Jewish colonies. It was also stated in the Morning Post yesterday that a British eye-witness declared that he had seen a Jew throwing bombs in the street. That would look as if it had been intended to set up a terror in Palestine, such as we have seen in other places. This is not, of course, intended by the Zionists here, but it is the natural result of the introduction of many people of very uncertain character.
I am very doubtful whether the number of Bolshevists introduced into Palestine is as small as the noble Duke thinks. From another letter from a Palestinian, written on May 24 last, I may quote the following —
"A German Jew who has fought against England during the last war can come to Palestine and buy lands at once, while a Christian Englishman who has fought and shed his blood cannot buy land in Palestine. Last year, under the pretence of keeping prices low in Palestine, the export of barley, wheat and other cereals was prohibited from Palestine, though the crops were exceptionally good and in excess of the country's needs. The Zionist Committee who wanted that measure for the benefit of their immigrants had advised the Government to accept that ruinous measure. What has been the result of that measure? We have now in Palestine about 40,000 tons of wheat, barley dari, seed, beans, peas, and lentils from the old crop, and the new crop has begun, and on these 40,000 tons the poor peasants lose £ 150,000.''
I do not know if that statement is true, but I think it is a question into which the Government ought to look.
There is another point in this letter which I should like to quote.
"England has not even the consolation of seeing her trade prosper in Palestine, for which she shed the blood of more than 250,000 of her sons and spent more than £ 300,000,000. During the first 18 months after the Armistice Palestine's imports consisted of 80 per cent, of British goods, but after these first 18 months the German and Austrian goods began to arrive gradually, and now I regret to tell you that the German and Austrian goods, imported 95 per cent, by the Jews, fill our markets, and scarcely 15 per cent, to 20 per cent, of our imports come from England.''
Again, I venture to think, the Government ought to look into that, because that might result from the appointment of a Jewish Minister of Commerce.
I heard with great interest Mr. Churchill's speech on Palestine in the House of Commons yesterday, and I admired and envied his great oratorical power, but he did not seem to me to have got in the least to the bottom of this great and important question. He did admit that the whole source of the trouble arose from the

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Zionist movement, but he failed to see the effects of the violation of the promises made by Lord Allenby to the Palestinians. He went to see a pre-war Jewish colony, and was delighted with what he saw. He sampled the wine there, and spoke in the highest terms of what was going on. But that was an old colony of Jews formed under Turkish rule, and was not in the slightest danger until the advent of the Zionists. He never seems, however, to have gone to see the places of Moslem or Christian cultivation, which, in some cases, is quite, as good as that of the Jews.
He attributed all the resentment to the Arabs, and said nothing about the feelings of the Christians, who very nearly equalled in number the Jews when we occupied the country; and no one can feel the present state of things more keenly than do the Christians. I hope the Government will look closely into these matters and give us some further information, as to whether the serious charges which I and others have made, are true or not. It is most essential that we should have the fullest and the most accurate information as to what is going on. Therefore, I hope that a full report on these riots at Jaffa, and three other places at least, will be published without delay.
LORD LAMINGTON: Will the noble Duke consider the desirability of inquiries as to the accuracy of what I said about Haifa and Bethlehem?
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: I will certainly make inquiries.

THE CHEQUERS ESTATE.
LORD BLEDISLOE LORD BLEDISLOE had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government on what terms and for what exact purposes Lord Lee of Fareham, late Minister of Agriculture, has generously made over to the nation 700 acres of land belonging to the Chequers estate, and how it is proposed to utilise this area under the existing scheme of agricultural experiment and research as conducted at Rothamsted, Cambridge, Woburn, and Long Ashton near Bristol.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will have seen with pleasure, and from the national standpoint with gratitude, the Press announcement of a fortnight ago, as to the truly magnificent
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gift to the nation by the present First Lord of the Admiralty, who, up to recently, was Minister of Agriculture —a gift which, if the newspaper descriptions are correct, will rank with similar munificence on the part, let me say, in the past, of Francis, Duke of Bedford, or Sir John Bennet Lawes of Rothamsted. I ask this question with reference to this gift because it is not apparent from the announcement made in the Press as to how it will fit in with the general scheme of agricultural research which was put forward about two years ago, and for which a definite sum of public money was car-marked, and which cannot, as I understand, be increased.
The gift of Chequers, one of the most beautiful country houses in the United Kingdom, was indeed as a country residence for present and future Prime Ministers, a magnificent gift. I venture to suggest that the gift of something like 1,300 acres of land adjacent is no less magnificent, and may prove to be of great economic advantage to agriculture, if it is utilised for the purposes which Lord Lee adumbrates in his letter to the present Minister of Agriculture, which was published in the Press a fortnight ago. I should say, perhaps, that this Press announcement simply reported the contents of two letters, one of May 9 and the other of May 12, being the offer by Lord Lee to the present Minister of Agriculture, and the latter's reply.
Lord Lee, in his letter, speaks of surrendering his interests in the farms and woodlands forming the Chequers estate, in order to give the Ministry of Agriculture an opportunity of occupying and carrying them on as "an experimental and instructional centre." I do not quite know what that last expression means, although we all understand what "experimental" means. Lord Lee goes on to say that the area of the farms is about 700 acres, together with farm buildings, seven cottages, farm machinery and sufficient live stock to make it a going concern. It looks as if he intended that it should be carried on as a farm. He mentions, incidentally, that the area of the woodlands is 600 acres, and that they contain a new steam saw mill, which I should think is no small part of the commercial value of that part of the gift.
In the reply which Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen sent to Lord Lee, he says this —
" It is proposed that the main farm —"

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he does not say how many acres —
"be conducted as an example of a stock-raising farm, showing how land of that character could be improved so as to produce the maximum output of live-stock consistent with sound commercial agriculture."
I do not quite know the character of this land, but I should imagine that a good deal of it is typical of the Chiltern hills, with a chalk subsoil and no great depth of surface soil. The letter goes on to say —
"It should be made a valuable demonstration of the growth of improved varieties of cereals and fodder crops, and of the amelioration of grassland to be utilised for the intensive breeding and rearing of live stock, without departing from the prime economic purpose of any farm which is intended to guide the practice of the working farmer. At the same time, it is hoped to come to an arrangement with the Bucks County Council re Dropshort Farm in connection with a farm institute. Prime Ministers for all time will have at their doors an example of the agricultural education in being."
He ends by saying —
" I hope to provide you very shortly with a more elaborate plan for the management of these farms."
The Minister's reply seems to cover the whole field of agriculture in all its departments, and if that is so it will be rather hard, I venture to suggest, to incorporate it as part of the Government scheme of agricultural research as carried on at centres in various parts of this country.
Your Lordships will probably not be aware, and perhaps will allow me to mention, that there are, at present, no fewer than eight centres of agricultural research in this country. The first is at Rothamsted (soil and nutrition of plants), the second at Rothamsted (plant pathology or diseases), the third at Cambridge and Aberdeen (animal nutrition), and others at Cambridge and Aberyst-with (plant breeding), Long Ashton, Bristol, and East Mailing, Kent (fruit growing), Reading (dairying), the Imperial College of Science (plant physiology), and Oxford (agricultural economics). For all that work a sum of £ 105,000 is earmarked, and the Treasury, I understand, have told the Minister of Agriculture that the amount cannot in any circumstances be increased. I do not want for a moment to look a gift horse in the mouth —because it is a truly magnificent gift —but I think one is justified in asking how this estate is going to be carried on for the purpose both of research and education without in any way depleting the grants that are made out
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of this block grant to the various centres of agricultural research to which I have referred. It is noticeable that if this valuable gift is really for animal research, it would, on the face of it, encroach on the work which is now being conducted at Cambridge and Aberdeen in respect of animal nutrition, or at Reading in respect of dairying.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD THE EARL OF CRAWFORD made a remark which was not heard.
LORD BLEDISLOE: I did not hear what the noble Earl said. I have no doubt that the noble Earl is more sympathetic than most noble Lords present, because he showed, when he was Minister, a very special interest in the research work which was then being initiated. But as regards the other problems to which Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen refers —namely, plant and soil problems —those are already being more than covered in the matter of research at Rothamsted, and to some extent at Cambridge and Aberystwith. There is one department of research which has not yet been dealt with, and for which the chief agricultural adviser of the Ministry has already made an appeal to the public for generous help —I may venture to remind the noble Earl that at the moment I have the honour of being Chairman of two of these research stations, and we are in genuine fear that in the acceptance of this gift by the Ministry we may ourselves suffer in the very important work which we are at present conducting. The department to which I refer is animal disease. Although there is at the moment an important Royal Commission sitting in reference to this question of animal disease, we have not in this country any research institute or centre dealing with research into animal diseases. Nor have we what some other countries have —a research station in connection with comparative pathology, that is to say, the relation that disease in animals bears to disease in man. That covers the whole area of internal parasitical disease, which is common both to our domestic animals and also to mankind.
In putting this Question, I desire to ask if the noble Earl is able to tell me whether the acceptance of this gift will in any way encroach upon the sphere of the other centres of research to which I have referred, or whether it will in any way

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deplete the grants which they are receiving, or whether any additional funds will be provided by the Treasury to enable this work, whatever it may be, to be carried out with success and in the best interests of the agriculture of this country.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF ANCASTER): My Lords, the noble Lord has already, in putting this Question, referred at some length to the correspondence which passed between Lord. Lee of Fareham and the Minister of Agriculture as regards Lord Lee of Fareham's generous gift, so that I do not think it is necessary for me to refer again to those letters. In reply to his Question, I may say that the exact terms under which the surrender will be effected are under consideration and cannot for the moment be set out, but Lord Lee of Fareham proposes to anticipate the provisions of the trust deed and to hand over forthwith the home farm and the woodlands at Chequers on the same generous terms as he made in the gift of the house and its amenities. The Ministry will be allowed to enter into possession of the farm as a going concern without any payment for tenant right or growing crops. The surrender is to be made in the course of the next few weeks, and I am sure the noble Lord will recognise what a generous provision that is, because the Ministry will have the reaping and selling of all the crops which Lord Lee of Fareham sowed and cultivated. Lord Lee will also leave the implements and equipment of the farm, together with a. good amount of livestock on the farm. I believe he proposes to sell off only some of his pedigree herds.
As regards what is going to be done with the farm, perhaps in the future it may be possible to carry out experimental work on the Chequers farm that may be part of some of the research schemes under the Ministry's care. So far, I have been repeating what the Minister has said, hi the first instance, the Ministry intend to develop the farms for the purpose of demonstrating intensive stock rearing methods, suitable to that class of land and applicable by farmers occupying the wide area that exists of similar land. Other crop demonstrations will be carried out in so far as they do not interfere with the normal course of the farming plan adopted. Except for a small area which it is hoped
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may be worked in connection with the Farm Institutes scheme it is not considered that the Chequers farms can be developed as purely experimental or research farms.
The whole time was listening to the noble Lord I could not quite gather whether he wished the Ministry of Agriculture to go on the Chequers farms as soon as the transfer is completed, and experiment in a large way in research and education, or whether he did not desire us to do this. In part, of his speech he expressed great fear that some of the other experimental and research stations would suffer if we spent some of the money voted for that purpose on experiment and research at Chequers, and undoubtedly that would be the case, but it is not our intention to take any of the money for that purpose. Our intention is to follow- out exactly what I have stated, and what I think the Minister stated in his letter. If ever a farm ought to be made to pay thus is such a case, seeing that Lord Lee of Fareham is handing it over on these generous terms, and I hope the noble Lord opposite will agree with rue when I say that one of the best experimental and research farms is that one which can illustrate for the benefit of all the country round how to make a farm pay; and that we hope to do at Chequers.

PAROCHIAL CHURCH COUNCILS (POWERS) MEASURE, 1921.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY rose to move, "That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parochial Church Councils (Powers) Measure, 1921, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent." His Grace said: My Lords, in moving the Resolution which stands in my name, may I explain what the purport of that proposal is? Your Lordships will remember that the Act of 1919, which is popularly called the Enabling Act, lays down specifically in the Constitution appended to it that when the Assembly which the Act constitutes had got into shape, and was doing its work, it should
" before entering upon any other legislative business, make provision for the self-government of the Church by passing through the Assembly measures—
" (a) Declaring that the Convocations of Canterbury and York have power, by canon lawfully passed and promulged, to amend the Constitution of the- Lower Houses thereof;

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"(b) conferring upon the parochial church councils constituted under the Schedule to this Constitution such powers as the Assembly may determine."
Those duties were laid upon us as obligatory before we proceeded to other
work in the Assembly.
The first of them, the provision for the Convocations to amend the Constitution of the Lower Houses, has been carried through the Assembly, carried through Parliament, and, the Royal Assent having been obtained to it, the elections under the new system are at this moment in progress and will be completed in the course of the next ten days. That has been an admirably prompt and effective mode of proving the usefulness of the measure passed in 1919. We have now before the House to-night the request, that the House will approve of the action we have taken with regard to the second direction that was given. That is to say, we were to lay down and prescribe the powers conferring upon the parochial church councils constituted under the Act such powers as the Assembly may determine. An immense amount of labour has been devoted to the task of giving effect to that obligation. We debated it at very full length a few months ago in the Assembly, and everybody there followed the matter with the closest attention, such attention as I have never seen paralleled in an Assembly of 700 people. In the end the proposals, which are embodied in the measure which was accordingly drawn up, were agreed to with practical unanimity.
I say "with practical unanimity," because there were two points upon which questions were raised, and each of these has since been the subject of some very wholesome discussion. The first related to the change in regard to the patronage of one or more City livings held under very peculiar conditions indeed, where the patronage lies with the parishioners or with feoffees on behalf of the parish. The proposals which we make, covering as they do England as a whole, transfer these powers to the parochial church councils which will be constituted under the Act; that is to say, that those who care about the church and attend it and make use of it are the people with whom the patronage will now rest. That is entirely in accordance with the spirit of the Act. If those who take exception to what we have done, on the ground that they are ratepayers or feoffees who have a right to
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be considered, are properly qualified, they can obtain all the powers they desire to have by becoming members of the parochial church meeting and then of the parochial church council. There is no difficulty about it, and the objection seems to me, as it seemed to others, to be one which, though not trifling, because it is an important matter locally, is infinitesimal in its character. It affects only two or three of the 14,000 parishes in the whole of England, and I do not think any particular wrong is done.
Objection was also made that the power of electing churchwardens was to this extent changed by the Measure—that whereas the vestry retains the power it had before of electing churchwardens there will be added to the vestry for this particular purpose the members of the parochial church meeting in order that they might have their say in the election. The present position is, so to speak, watered down by the coming in of these other people who have a direct interest in the matter. That is entirely in accordance with the spirit of what we are trying to do and we believe it is absolutely right.
This Measure, carefully drawn up and adequately discussed, was brought by the Assembly or its Committee before the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament, appointed by this House and the House of Commons, and was there most carefully considered. After debating and considering it, and seeing whether or not it infringed in any way the conditions which they were to be specially watchful to protect, the Ecclesiastical Committee decided that they would like to confer with the Legislative Committee of the National Assembly. They did so confer and the proceedings are before your Lordships in the White Paper which records what took place. After that conference the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament again took the matter into consideration and passed the resolution which is to be found at the end of their Report on the subject —
"The Ecclesiastical Committee, having considered the matters above referred to and the effect of the Measure on the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects, are of opinion that it is expedient that the Measure should become law."
I ask your Lordships, by your vote to-day, to give effect to the recommendations there made, so that the Measure may obtain the Royal Assent and take its place among the enactments produced under the new Act of Parliament.
There are one or two other matters which we have not yet adequately considered in the Assembly which will belong to the parochial church councils hereafter in whatever form we may agree upon. We have purposely delayed those in order that they may be fully considered, with the desire of protecting the legitimate rights of every member of the community. With that exception, the Measure we are now submitting, which has received the approval of a Committee of your Lordships' House, embodies, as we believe, the recommendations which are most wholesome and most desirable. I beg to move.
Moved, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the' Parochial Church Councils (Powers) Measure, 1921, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent. —(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, before the Motion is put I have a few observations to make to the House about this Measure. I am not going to say a word in opposition to the Motion made by the most rev. Primate, but I think this is a very important and interesting occasion and it would be a pity that it should remain unmarked by nothing more than what is practically a formal Motion to present the Measure to His Majesty. This Measure is really the first important result and the first test of the working of the Church Assembly (Powers) Act, and I do not think it will be possible for anybody to say that the Act has not worked admirably.
The Ecclesiastical Committee, of which I happen to be a member, went through this matter with great pains and deliberation. I will not put it so high as to say that there was opposition to them, but doubt was expressed about certain matters which had been specially brought to the attention of the Committee. Those who were disposed to support the representations that had been made expressed their
views and were fully heard. They were not only answered in the Committee, but they were dealt with by means of the conference which is provided for in the Act. If I may mention my own opinion, I was not entirely in agreement with the conclusions arrived at
by the Committee upon certain points. That fact, perhaps, gives me a rather better title than anybody else to say how satisfied I am with the way in which the matter was treated. Though
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I still stick to my opinion, as I am a little apt to do about most things, I bow to the decision of the Committee and do not wish to suggest that there should be any interruption in the going forward of this Measure.
There are two matters which appeared to me to emerge from the proceedings that took place. One was that perhaps there was not sufficient publicity about the deliberations of the Church Assembly when dealing with matters which might affect not only the Church but those outside the Church. At any rate, one of the subjects of complaint brought before us was that the persons concerned —I shall not enter into particulars —had had no information on the subject and did not know anything about what had taken place until it came before the Committee. I venture to suggest to the most rev. Primate that be might consider that, especially when it appears that outside, rights may be affected, and that he should sec that some means are provided by which the deliberations of the Church Assembly are made as widely known as the deliberations would be if the matter proceeded in the old way by Act of Parliament.
The other point, I think, is even more important. It emerged from what took place that there is no way of dealing with the matter if a mistake should be made. It may be a serious mistake or it may not be serious, vet it may be something which ought not to be followed, and the Ecclesiastical Committee are put in the position that they must either pass something which ought not to be passed, or they must hang up the whole Measure, although, as a whole, they are in favour of it. I also ask the most rev. Primate to take into consideration whether such a very strong line should be taken as that. I do not think that any self-respecting Committee—and this Committee is a very strong and important body —will stand being told that they must either take it or leave if. Some other way ought to be open to them. I do not suggest for a moment that the Ecclesiastical Committee shall be given any power of amendment. I understand, and have always understood, the position. When the Ecclesiastical Committee point to a real flaw (which in the case of a Bill before Parliament would certainly be corrected) there should be some means of dealing with it without the whole Measure having to be lost. I desire to support the Motion.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, may I say one word in reference to what the noble Lord opposite (Lord Muir Mackenzie) has said. I happen to have been very intimately concerned with the matter during its conduct through the National Assembly. The noble Lord has suggested that certain persons whose interests were affected had no knowledge of what was being done, or at any rate did not know the extent to which their interests were being affected. I can assure him that that did not happen. I can assure him for a very good reason. The same persons who raised the objection came to see me several times, and, moreover, there were Amendments upon the Paper during the passage; of the Measure through the National Assembly which raised the very points to which the noble Lord has called attention. I agree that they were points of importance, and, because of that fact, they were very fully considered and discussed. I agree also with him that there ought to be sufficient publicity, but I am quite sure there was no want of publicity in this case upon the particular points to which he has called our attention.
Upon the other points, I understand what the noble Lord has said regarding the position of the Ecclesiastical Committee. It is a matter which has been very much discussed, and, personally, I think I agree with what has been said by the noble Lord himself. The question is whether the Legislative Committee is to have power, apart from the National Assembly, to deal with such Amendments as the noble Lord has suggested. If they had power, then, in consultation with the Ecclesiastical Committee, the matter could be settled in the way he has proposed. But that is a constitutional point of very great importance concerning the work of the National Assembly itself, and no one knows better than the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, the extent to which that very point was thrashed out when the form of the Enabling Bill was finally settled. I agree that it is a matter which, on experience, may have to be revised, but it could only be revised by a change of the constitution itself —a constitution which is in its infancy at the present moment, and which, certainly in the case of the Parochial Councils Bill, has worked admirably.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, if I intervene for one moment it would be to express, as a member of the Ecclesiastical Com-
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mittee, my support of the Motion before the House. The noble Lord who has just addressed us speaks with an authority, due to his great experience, which will, of course, influence your Lordships. At the same time, I would like to emphasise, if I may do so, what has been said by Lord Muir Mackenzie, and to make it clear to the House that those of us who, perhaps, appear to do so, have no desire to oppose the Motion, but wish to express some doubt as to the effect of certain parts of the Measure. I am. referring to its effect upon the rights of the public, to which, I understand, the Ecclesiastical Committee is particularly to pay attention. Those doubts were felt by those who were not opposing the Measure, or who had no spirit of antagonism to the Church of England managing its own affairs in the best possible way. Speaking for myself, as a member of the Church of England, I should be the last person to go against the principle which Parliament, in its wisdom, has seen tit to adopt. I am sure that it is the only way in which those measures of reform, called for by members of the Church, can be achieved, and achieved in the best possible manner.
I should like to press the two matters I that have been urged upon the most rev. Primate —namely, the question of publicity, and, more particularly, the difficulty in which the Ecclesiastical Committee is placed in not being able to deal with any points of detail in Measures that are submitted to them. The individual members of the Committee were placed in a very difficult position in feeling that the only way in which they could deal with the points with regard to which there was doubt was to reject the whole Measure. I think that is a most unfortunate position in which to place the Ecclesiastical Committee. As the most rev. Primate has said, this is one of the preliminary Measures which are essential for the reorganisation and administration of the Church, and, no doubt, we may reasonably anticipate that in the future very important Measures I will be sent back from the Church Assembly to receive a recommendation from the Ecclesiastical Committee.
If, at the very outset of our activities, we are presented with these, difficulties, it is now, and not later, that we should appeal to the most rev. Primate to deal with them and to consider this point of the constitution. It is a very real point, and one which has given a great deal of heart-

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burning to those who are only too anxious to see these Measures receive every support and be carried through. Therefore, I beg to support Lord Muir Mackenzie in what he said. I do not venture in my ignorance to make any recommendation, but some means should be devised to get the Ecclesiastical Committee out; of the impasse in which it now stands in discharging the duties placed upon it. Those of us who are members of the Ecclesiastical Committee, and not widely versed in legal technicalities, feel our responsibility to be considerable, and laymen like myself, who are anxious to do right, feel that we are placed in an invidious position. I hope that those who deal with this matter will give it their serious and immediate consideration.
VISCOUNT CAVE: My Lords, may I intervene foe a few moments upon the important point raised by Lord Muir Mackenzie and Lord O'Hagan, relating to; the powers of the Ecclesiastical Committee. I happen to be Chairman of that Committee, and it is not in a position quite so difficult as noble Lords suppose. The position is this. When a Measure is passed by the Church Assembly it comes before this Committee of the two Houses for consideration, and if some matter I appears to the Committee to require amendment in the Measure they cannot, it is true, themselves pass Amendments, nor do I think any one suggests it is desirable they should have that power. The Legislative Committee of the Church Assembly cannot itself amend the Measure; and I am not sure that the members of the Church Assembly generally would desire that a Committee only of that body should have so great a power.
The course, which can be taken, and which would be taken, in that event, is this. The Ecclesiastical Committee of the two Houses have to draft a Report upon the Measure to Parliament, and if they think an Amendment of importance is desirable, I conceive they would draft a report to the two Houses that it was not desirable the Measure should pass into law unless certain specified Amendments were made. That draft Report would be submitted to the Legislative Committee of the Assembly. That Committee would be in this position. They could either allow the Measure to go to Parliament with that comment upon it —which I apprehend would be a serious matter for the prospects of the Measure —
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or they could withdraw it and ask the Assembly to re-pass the proposals in an amended form. The Assembly, if the Amendment commended itself to them, would no doubt take that course, and after a short delay the Measure, as amended, would come again before the Ecclesiastical Committee, who would deal with it in accordance with their previous recommendation. That shows that we are not quite in an impasse, but that we have real power to enforce, or, at all events, to endeavour to enforce, such Amendments in a measure as we think are absolutely necessary.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount who has just spoken has said, much better than I could have expressed it, what I was going to say, and he speaks with an authority which I cannot hope to command. I admit that the constitutional point raised by Lord Muir Mackenzie is a real one, and as our experience of the working of the Act proceeds, it may be necessary for the National Assembly to consider whether any amendment is required. But it is not the fact, as supposed by Lord O'Hagan, that the Ecclesiastical Committee has no alternative but to recommend the rejection of a Measure. On the contrary, it can, in friendly and private conference with the Legislative Committee, point out the mistakes which it thinks have been made. It can inform the Legislative Committee of the Report that it will have to send to Parliament unless those charges are made. It can point out the changes which would enable it to recommend the Measure without any reservation, and the Legislative Committee has then the responsibility thrown upon it of deciding whether it will ask the Ecclesiastical Committee to send its Report on to Parliament or to withdraw the Measure for the moment, fairing it the next session to the National Assembly and pointing out the changes which the Ecclesiastical Committee think ought to be made. The responsibility will then rest with the National Assembly to come to a decision. That might involve delay, but it does not involve an impasse; and while the system I may hereafter be improved, it is, I think, I too soon to say that it is not going to work.
LORD STUART OF WORTLEY: My Lords, may I point out also that, although unquestionably it is necessary to face, a certain amount of delay if amendments 'are to be effected, the measure of delay is

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such time as may be involved in re-convening the National Assembly, and, after all, that is not a worse condition than that to which Parliament itself has to submit in respect of many analogous matters. Outside authorities, local communities, present Bills to Parliament, complete schemes for certain areas which materially affect the interests of the King's subjects and alter the existing law, and Parliament is often faced with the alternative of having to pass dissenting Addresses to His Majesty, or some kind of Address which points out the nature of amendments which it thinks should be put into such schemes.
In all these cases there is no choice but to take, all or say that you can get nothing without incurring further delay; and if we look reasonably at this thing, it is not an unreasonable analogy to draw between the position of the National Assembly and the Ecclesiastical Committee and the position in which Parliament stands in respect to many, and by no means less important, matters. The Enabling Act, as it is called, did recognise one great principle —namely, that, as in all other cases, there should be a big devolution of Parliamentary power to the one body which is qualified to deal with the matters in hand.
LORD O'HAGAN: By the kind permission of the House, may I say that the position of the Ecclesiastical Committee in matters of this kind was not understood by many members of the Committee when the question was before us.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: May I thank Lord Muir Mackenzie for what he has said on this subject and the helpful criticism that has been contributed by noble Lords. I can promise that very careful consideration will be given to all that has been said in the debate.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PERMANENT COURT OF INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE.
Lord PHILLIMORE Lord PHILLIMORE rose to ask—
1. Whether considering the importance of the elections to the Permanent Court of International Justice being made when the Assembly of the League of Nations meets in September they will consider the propriety
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of using their good offices to induce the other States, parties to the League who have not yet ratified the Statute constituting the Court, to do so in good time.
2. Whether, having regard to Articles 4 and 5 of the Statute, and the request which has been addressed by the Secretary-General of the League to the members of the Court of Arbitral ion at the Hague, His Majesty's Government has considered the question of filling up the four places on the Court which are accorded to the British Empire, so that the nominations for Judges which may be made on behalf of the British Empire may have their full weight when tin? election comes on.
The noble and learned Lord said: The Statute forming the Permanent Court of International Justice was unanimously adopted by the Assembly at its last meeting in December, 1920. The resolution stated that the Assembly unanimously declared its approval of the Draft Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, as amended by the Assembly, which was prepared by the Council under Article 14 of the Covenant and submitted to the Assembly for its approval. In view of the wording of Article 14, it was resolved that the Statute of the Court should be submitted within the shortest possible time to the members of the League of Nations for adoption in the form of a protocol, duly ratified, and declaring their recognition of the Court. It was declared to be the duty of the Council to submit the Statute to the members. Now comes the important clause —
" As soon as this protocol has been ratified by the majority of members of the League of Nations, the Statute of the Court shall come into force, and the Court will be called upon to sit."
A certain number of States signed at once. The report given to the Council by the Secretariat on February 25 was that twenty-seven members had up to that time signed.
The monthly summary published by the League of Nations says that three more have signed the protocol, and two are expected to sign immediately. So far so good; we have got as far as thirty or thirty-two of the forty-three or forty-four States which constitute the members of the League. The difficulty is in the ratification. Sweden ratified within a

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week, I think. Since then, only two more Stares had ratified when the monthly organ was published. It was said that two more were expected to do so. Your Lordships will see that that accounts for but live States out of forty-three. The difficulty is that, if you do not get a sufficient number of ratifications, the Assembly will not be able to elect at its meeting in September, and the consequence will be that the formation of the Court will be, thrown over for a year. I cannot conceive why that should happen. It was unanimously Toted that this was a right course: it was unanimously felt that the Court ought to be ready to function. The humorous thing is that on March 3 the Council, in pursuance of its duty, sent out an urgent request to the States that they should ratify, and I believe that at that moment no single member of the Council had itself ratified.
My noble and learned friend Lord Weardale put a Question to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs recently, and elicited from him that as regards Great Britain it was desired to have one ratification by the King in respect of Great Britain and all the Dominions. I feel the force of that, and, if that is to follow in a very few days, no doubt it will be a very great advantage. But, in the meantime, the difficulty is to get a sufficient number of ratifications before September, and the information "which I get, both from the Secretariat at Geneva and from friends of mine in Holland, is that what is wanted is that Great Britain should take this step, and that, as soon as she does, there is a probability that a great number of the smaller nations will follow her lead. I am aware that some of the nations consider that it will be necessary to have an Act of their Parliament to enable them to ratify. I believe that at this moment, in Holland, such an Act is going through, and I understand that, in Norway and in other countries something of the same kind is taking place. Some countries do not need, or do not think that they need, such an Act. But whether they need it or whether they do not, time is slipping by, and slipping by with the most terrible rapidity.
Unfortunately, a further difficulty arises. The Council thought itself warranted in instructing the Secretariat to send out provisionally to the various countries requests for nominations. That, no doubt, can be done, and I apprehend that it is
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being done. But I wish to ask whether the Judges can be elected provisionally, or must one wait until the Statute ha? been affirmed. I should have thought that it might be possible for the Judges to be elected provisionally, but the noble Earl, in his reply to Lord Weardale, said this:
"The noble Lord is quite right in his statement of the position. Article 5 does provide that at least three months before the date of the election the Secretary-General of the League of Nations shall request the members of the Hague Court of Arbitration, belonging to the Stales which are members of the League, to undertake the nomination of persons in a position to accept the duties of a member of the Permanent Court; and, accordingly, it does follow that unless the Statute is ratified by June 5—"
a date which is unfortunately now passed —
" the Council and Assembly will not be able to elect the Judges in the manner prescribed by the meeting of the Assembly at Geneva on September 5."
There may be some virtue in the words "in the manner prescribed." I trust that the view will not be taken that it will not be possible to elect these Judges in September.
I may state to your Lordships that one of the Articles of the Statute contemplates the regular meeting of the Judges on June 15. If the Judges are not elected in September of this year it will not be possible for the Court to be sitting in June, 1922, and, if the Judges are not to be elected till September, 1922, we shall not have this Court sitting until June, 1923. I really do not know why, after the hot fit which led the Assembly to pass that unanimous vote, the cold fit has set in, and why there has been this great delay in procuring ratification. But I think and trust that it is not yet too late, and the object of my first Question is to put before His Majesty's Government the request that all the influence of Great Britain and all her example (which is, after all, better than precept) should be used in favour of obtaining these ratifications as soon as possible, and also that the view should not be taken that it will not be possible to elect the Judges in September, even if a sufficient number of ratifications had not come in by that date. Why any country should first agree, and then make a delay about ratification, passes my humble comprehension.
I have a second question as to which I have only a very few words to say. It is

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necessary that I should just draw your Lordships' attention to one Article of the Statute. In Article 4 it is provided that members of the Court should be elected by the Assembly and by the Council from a list of persons nominated by' the national groups in the Courts of Arbitration—that is the Court organised by th Conventions of The Hague of 1899 and 1907. The view which was taken by the Committee of Jurists (of which I was a member) and which has been accepted by the Council and by the Assembly, was that it would be better that the nominations of Judges should not come direct from the political organs of the States, but from their representatives upon The Hague Tribunal. The idea might have been a little fanciful, but at any rate it has commended itself.
When this matter came under discussion I sent for the list of members of The Hague Tribunal, and I found that at that time Great Britain had not a single representative. The noble Earl, Lord Desart, came, to me this evening, and said: "I thought I was a representative," and somebody else was mentioned. I said: "I daresay you were, but all appointments were for a period of years, and I was told at The Hague that all the British ones had expired by effluxion of time.'' Great Britain, I think, was the only country in that position. Four representatives are supposed to be given to each State. Some have three, some two, some one. I am not sure whether any had four, but I believe that Great Britain was the only country at that moment without any.
I ventured to communicate with the Foreign Office, with the result that His Majesty appointed my noble and learned friend, Viscount Finlay, than whom I am sure no better appointment could be made, to be one of the four. But I was told at the time that it was desired to reserve the other places, and I see that in an answer made by Mr. Chamberlain in the House of Commons yesterday, it was stated that the Court might still sometimes sit, and it was desired to reserve those places for Judges from the Dominions. I fully appreciate the position, although it will be a change, because Lord Desart was one of the old four, and Sir Edward Fry another; but I venture still to hope, for reasons that I will give, that the Government will fill up the vacancies at once. The Judges are to come from each of these groups. There will be keen competition among the various
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nations to have their people put upon the Court, and in the competition, there not being room for all, much will depend on the personal character, if known, of the individual candidates, and where it is not known, or even where it is known, upon the character of those who recommend the candidates; and, great as is the authority and reputation of my noble friend, Lord Finlay, I cannot help thinking that it will be a matter of some astonishment to foreign nations if the British nominators do not number their full number. We are entitled to nominate four candidates. It is not, I suppose, intended that they should all be from Great Britain, or the Dominions, and I suppose it is quite possible to recommend great people all over the world. We might nominate a member from the United States, and I hope that we may nominate another gentleman, whom I will not mention by name. If, however, the British nominations stand in the name of one, and all the other countries fill up nominations in the names of four, I greatly fear that our nominations will not have the same weight as if they were filled up in the names of four. I have, therefore, put my second Question on the Paper.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTOX): My Lords, this is not the first time on which my noble and learned friend has called the attention of the House to the institution of this Court of International Justice. It is a body in the inception of which he himself bore a very honourable part, and in the progress of which to maturity he is entitled to take, as he does, very strong interest. He is anxious that nothing should occur to prevent this body from coming into being at the earliest possible date, and he has complained, in the first part of his remarks, of the apparent inertia, or remissness, which he finds himself unable to understand, both of the States who are concerned in the institution of this Court and of the League of Nations itself in carrying it through its preliminary stages. The remedy he suggests, in the first part of his Question, is that His Majesty's Government should use their good offices to induce the other States, parties to the League, who have not yet ratified the Statute constituting the Court to do so in good time.
I doubt very much whether it would be wise, or whether it is part of the duty, of

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this Government, or of any individual Government, to take action in that sense. I think it might be open to serious misconstruction. I doubt very much whether we should welcome action of that sort being taken by another Power, and, indeed, whatever Power contemplated acting in such a manner might be held guilty of usurping what arc obviously the functions of the Council of the League of Nations itself. And not only do those functions belong to it, but they are already being exercised by it. The Secretary-General of the League— I think the noble and learned Lord referred to this—has already acted in the sense in which the noble Lord now desires His Majesty's Government to act also. In February the Secretary-General issued an appeal to all members of the League to deposit the requisite number of ratifications before August, and if we are now to take similar action it suggests at once that the authority of the Secretary-General of the League is inadequate, or that people pay no attention to his requests. I do not myself share the apprehensions of the noble and learned Lord as to what is going to take place.
Not only has the Secretary-General acted in the manner I have described, but he was also authorised by another Resolution of the Council to take the necessary steps, on or after May I, for obtaining additional nominations of candidates if the Court constituted had not been ratified by the majority of the members of the League by that date. Under that power he has invited those States not represented on the Hague Court of Arbitration to nominate their national groups—that is, those already existing by virtue of membership of the Hague Court of Arbitration and those specially created for the purpose —to send him by August 1 the names of their candidates forelection by the Assembly and Council of the League in September. It will be seen then that members who intend to ratify have a period up to the end of July to do so, and from such information as I possess I do not doubt that the necessary number of ratifications will have been deposited by that date. I told the noble and learned Lord, or Lord Weardale, on an earlier occasion, that we attach importance, as he, does, to the matter, and any influence I can exercise upon our Dominions in hurrying on their progress, he may rely upon me to exercise. As regards doing more, I do not think, in the I first place, that it is necessary, and, in the
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second place, it would ho rather transcending the powers which we have a right to exercise.
With regard to the second point— namely, the numbers of the Hague Court of Arbitration—the noble, and learned Lord is aware of the fact that although there was a period in which we were unrepresented upon the Court, we have since been fortunate enough to secure the services of Lord Finlay, who is, at the present moment, the sole British member of the Court. The question whether we should fill up, in the manner prescribed by the Statute, the remaining places, is one which has been carefully considered. I had forgotten, till the noble and learned Lord reminded me, that an answer upon the question was given yesterday in another place, and that is the answer which in substance I was prepared to give to-day.
We had considered whether it was desirable, with a view to providing candidates for the new Court to be set up, to fill the places, and we decided not to do so, for the reasons given by Mr. Chamberlain in the House of Commons. They are these. The Dominions are not separate members of the Hague Court, as they will be of the new Court. What we thought was that if any question is referred to the Hague Court which concerns one or more of the Dominions, it will be only fair to them that they should have a voice in the selection of the Judge, or, it might be, more than one Judge, who would serve upon the Court, so that they would have somebody to adjudicate on the matter in whom they would repose the fullest confidence. That, and that only, is the reason for which these places have not been filled up; and whether, owing to their not being filled up, we shall be unable to provide a candidate—
Lord PHILLIMORE: I never suggested that candidates need come from them. What I suggested was that the nominators of the candidate would be fewer and have less weight.
Earl CURZON of KEDLESTON: They will be fewer, but they will not necessarily carry less weight. Let us suppose that Lord Finlay were left alone, and that a nomination came from Lord Finlay; that would, in my judgment, carry at least as much weight as any three people I can imagine. However I am not prepared to enter into that question now. I have

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given the explanation of the reasons, really entirely disinterested reasons, for which the places have not been filled up, and I submit that on the whole they justify our action. If the noble and learned Lord, whose authority on this matter is very great, would wish to put any new considerations before me, of course I would consider them, but at the present moment that is the position we have taken.
LORD PHILLTMORE: I should like to thank the noble Earl for what he has said, and to express my great joy at his view that it will be possible to get sufficient ratifications by September. I am sorry to say that that view is not shared at the Secretariat at Geneva, from which I have
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received more than one anxious letter on this subject. With regard to the other matter, I think the noble Earl cannot have had it present in his mind when he spoke, and therefore I should like to recapitulate that.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I do not want to interrupt, but it is laid down very clearly in the Rules of Business that the noble Lord is justified in explaining any misrepresentation of his remarks that may have been made, but he is not justified in recapitulating his arguments.
House adjourned at five minutes past seven o'clock.