Sitting of 14 July 1921

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LONDONDERRY CORPORATION (BRIDGE) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2ª.(according to Order).

METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to this Bill there are adequate reasons why your Lordships should dispense with the sessional order, and I move accordingly.
Moved, That the Order made on the 13th day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Thursday the 16th day of June next," be dispensed with.— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2ª. — (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª. and committed.

LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAIL WAY (HOLYHEAD HARBOUR LEASING) BILL, [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, in view of the approach of the end of the session, it is important that this Bill should be got through. No one will be damnified by the suspension of the Standing Order, which I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 143 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill.— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. 143 having been suspended), Bill read 3ª. and passed, and sent to the Commons.

STOCK CONVERSION AND INVESTMENT TRUST BILL, [H.L.]
Read 3ª. Amendment made; Bill passed and sent to the Commons.
DE TRAFFORD ESTATES BILL, [H.L.]
Read 3ª. and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ADVERTISEMENTS BILL, [H.L.]
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill for the better regulating of advertisements on hoardings, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.— (Lord Askwith.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (WATER) BILL.
Read 3ª.(according to Order), and passed, and returned to the Commons.
GLASGOW DEAF AND DUMB INSTITU TION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3ª.(according to Order), and passed.

CORN SALES BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.— (Lord Clinton.)
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I desire to ask what is the position of the Government with regard to this Bill. I notice that serious Amendments have been put down by the promoter of the Bill which, if they are carried by your Lordships, will require that the Bill shall, go back to the House of Commons. Then, as your Lordships who have been members of another place are aware, it goes back merely as a Private Bill, and there will be no time for those Amendments to be considered in another place, unless the Government are prepared to give facilities. The effect will be that the Bill will be dead, and that would be a great injury to the people of England, who are perfectly satisfied with the Bill as it stands. I appreciate the
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difficulty of the noble Lord, LordClinton, in regard to Scotland, but it is unfortunate that the difficulties were not discovered during the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons. Unless we get some assurance from the Government that they will give facilities in another place for the consideration of the Amendments which your Lordships propose to make to-day— Amendments which are very far-reaching— I do not think we ought to make any Amendments at all. The Bill as it stands is, from an English point of view, better than no Bill at all. I should like to know what is the attitude of the Government.
LORD EMMOTT: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord who has just spoken does not desire to pass an imperfect measure through this House. I do not rise to make any further reference to what he has said, but to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill one or two questions. I had meant to put down Amendments for this stage, but by an unfortunate chapter of accidents I was unable to do so, because I was not in the House yesterday or on Tuesday. There are only two points to which I want to draw attention, with the leave of the House. In the debate on the Second Reading the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, stated most emphatically, as his considered opinion, that the whole of our import trade is left out of this Bill altogether, and in another sentence, he said: "It does not apply to corn which at the date of the contract was not within the United Kingdom." I bow to the legal opinion of my noble and learned friend, and I dare say that he is perfectly right in that opinion, but I should like to have a definite assurance that this is the considered view, not only of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill— for I know that is what he intends— but also of His Majesty's Government. If that be the case, there would be no necessity for me to move any Amendment in regard to it, either at this or any future stage.
The second point about which I want to ask is in regard to corn exported, or reexported, from the United Kingdom to the Continent. A very large amount of trade is done in the export of cereals and, particularly, of offals to the Continent of Europe. It is done in foreign money and in metric centals— that is, in centals of 100 kilos— and it is most undesirable that the contracts made in that business should be illegal if they are made in metric centals. That would be the effect of this Bill.

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Those who arc supporting the Bill do not desire to interfere with our export and reexport trade. This Bill will certainly interfere with it. I will not argue the question now, but I shall put down an Amendment for the Report stage, unless the noble Lord and the House generally would desire that it should be taken now on the Committee stage.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, in reply to Lord Strachie may I say that the Amendments are put down on the initiative of my noble friend, Lord Clinton who is the patron and sponsor of the Bill, and who has come to the conclusion that these two changes will make the Bill into a thoroughly workmanlike measure in certain respects where he now believes it to be defective. So far as the Government are concerned, Lord Clinton has been good enough to take into consultation my noble friend beside me (the Earl of Ancaster), and the Government have not the smallest objection to either of Lord Clinton's Amendments. Indeed, they will support them, but I think it unwise to suggest at the present stage that unless the Government can promise facilities in another place for consideration of these Amendments, the Amendments should therefore be defeated, and that your Lordships should take upon yourselves the responsibility of passing a measure which the promoters themselves admit to be defective.
LORD STRACHIE: As regards Scotland.
LORD CLINTON: My Lords, I agree with Lord Strachie that it is very unfortunate that an Amendment has to be moved to a private measure which will, no doubt, make it more difficult to get that measure passed before the end of the session. At the same time, I am confident that unless the Amendment relating to Scotland is inserted in the measure the Bill is quite incomplete so far as Scotland is concerned, and I. myself will not be responsible for pressing any measure which is so obviously open to criticism. With regard to Lord Emmot's point, upon which the noble and learned Lord opposite, Lord Buckmaster, was good enough to speak, and to make an exceedingly effective reply the other night, I would say that that reply was entirely in accordance with my reading of the measure, and it was certainly
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in accordance with the intentions of the promoters. I hope that Lord Emmott will take it that the effect of the measure will be as the noble and learned Lord described it. With regard to exports and re-exports, my impression of the Bill itself is that they would not be seriously, or at all, affected, and if the noble Lord, Lord Emmott, wishes to press his Amendment to-night. I would certainly have to oppose it. If, on the other hand, he likes to leave it until the Report stage, I will have the matter very carefully looked into, and if his fears are really well founded I will endeavour to give effect to his Amendment, for naturally I do not desire to do anything which would injure the export trade of this country.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Sale of corn to be by weight.
1. From and after the commencement of this Act, every contract, bargain, sale or dealing relating to corn shall, unless it is made or had by weight only and in terms of and by reference to the hundredweight of one hundred and twelve imperial standard pounds, be null and void:
Provided that this Act shall not apply to any contract, bargain, sale or dealing—

(i) for or relating to a less quantity of corn than one hundred and twelve imperial standard pounds;

(ii) for or relating to corn which at the date of the contract, bargain, sale or dealing in not within the United Kingdom, or to corn imported into the United Kingdom so long as the same shall remain in the warehouse, or store, or shed where the same shall have been first stored on importation;

(iii) for or relating to corn imported into the United Kingdom in. cases where such contract, bargain, sale, or dealing provides for delivery in the original bags in which the corn was imported (subject only to rebagging in replacement of damaged bags);

(iv) for or relating to corn growing on or in the land and not severed therefrom.

LORD EMMOTT: I do not propose to move any Amendment now. It is hardly fair to the House to do so. I could only raise my point on the question that the clause stand part.
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON moved, at the end of the clause, to leave out "and not severed therefrom" and insert "or to corn

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unthreshed." The noble Lord said: The Amendment to which we have already alluded is in connection with the last of the provisos to Clause 1, exempting certain things and certain transactions from the provisions of the measure. The last proviso states that where sales of corn un-severed from the land take place the Bill should not apply. That safeguarded a large number of sales by the acre, both of corn and other crops, which take place particularly in Scotland, but it did not go quite far enough, because it left out of account certain similar transactions of sales of corn by the acre after it is cut but before it is threshed. In addition there are other transactions, mainly between outgoing and incoming tenants, where corn is sold by the stack. It will be quite impossible to carry out those sales by weight, which is unascertained, and, indeed, cannot be ascertained, and includes also straw from which the grain has not been separated. The Amendment covers the ground entirely.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, line' 4, leave out ("and not severed therefrom") and insert (" or to corn unthreshed ") — (Lord Clinton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 1, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill—
LORD EMMOTT: I should like to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill whether he can give me a more definite answer regarding the opinion of the Government on the question I raised as to the effect of the clause as it now stands on our import trade. The point about which certain traders are nervous is this. The original form of words when the Bill was introduced, was—
"for or relating to corn grown outside the British Isles until such corn has been brought into these Islands."
That paragraph has been amended so that it now reads—
for or relating to corn which at the date of the contract, bargain, sale or dealing is not within the United Kingdom, or to corn imported into the United Kingdom so long as the same shall remain in the warehouse, or store, or shed where the same shall have been first stored on importation;
The first form deals with corn bought for shipment and in transit. The doubt in some traders' minds— it is a legal question whether it is justified or not— is whether the new form also includes corn bought
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for shipment and in transit. My opinion is that it does, but my opinion is worth nothing. It is a matter on which we want legal opinion, and if the noble Lord is not able to answer me perhaps he will look into it by Report stage and I can then move an Amendment which will meet the case.
LORD BUCKMASTER: After all, you do not want legal opinions on matters that are plain, and if there be any doubt as to the meaning of this paragraph, it should at least be capable of being stated in order that one may know what is the cause of the uncertainty. I turn to the paragraph and I find no case for doubt at all, unless I totally misapprehend the nature of the commercial transactions to which Lord Emmott refers. If these purchases of corn for re-export are made while the corn is in transit then that corn is not within the United Kingdom when the contract is made. If these contracts are made when the corn has been landed, unless it has been taken out of the warehouse, or store or shed, where it was put on importation, equally the Bill does not apply. It expressly provides that it shall not apply so long as the corn remains in the warehouse, store, or shed, where it was first stored on importation. I am consequently quite unable to understand what is the mystery and difficulty.
LORD EMMOTT: I am sorry if I have not made it clear. The real doubt, as I understand it, in the minds of the traders, is whether corn imported into the United Kingdom also means corn before it is imported into the United Kingdom; corn bought for shipment or in transit.
LORD BUCKMASTER: The noble Lord has really taken two paragraphs, mixed them up together, and has produced confusion from the natural process of putting two things together which are intended to be read separately. Proviso (ii) is not in relation to corn imported at all. It provides that the whole Bill shall not apply to corn which at the date of the contract was not within the United Kingdom. If, therefore, these contracts are made for corn that is in course of shipment, the Bill does not apply.
In proviso (iii) there is an additional provision that it does not relate to
corn imported into the United Kingdom in eases where such contract, bargain, sale, or dealing

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provides for delivery in the original bags in which the corn was imported (subject only to rebagging in replacement of damaged bags).
If, therefore, by some means, the contract should be effected under the latter part of proviso (ii), when the corn had been imported into the United Kingdom but no longer remains in the shed, then it again would not apply if the contract related to the delivery of the corn in the original bags in which it had been sent forward.
I rather gather that something has happened to the Bill in the course of its introduction which has led to its terms being changed, and the people who are objecting to the Bill are objecting to it on the ground that it is in the form in which it was originally contemplated and not in the form in which it has been introduced. As it was introduced I confess I do not understand the difficulty. If there be a difficulty I cannot quite see how Lord Emmott can reasonably ask Lord Clinton to obtain the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown. Speaking as an ex-Law Officer, if any member of this House had asked my opinion I should have been glad, as a friend, to have done what I could. But if he had asked me for my opinion as a Law Officer of the Crown I should have asked him by what authority he did so, and I do not think he would have got much of a reply.
LORD CLINTON: I do not think the noble Lord will expect me to give him a further reply on the point, and I hope he will not expect me to face such terrible things as would happen if I asked a Law Officer of the Crown for his opinion.
On Question, Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Adaptation of Acts and awards providing for payment based on price of imperial bushels or other measures.
5.— (1) Where under the provisions of any Act or award or other instrument any payments are to be calculated on the price or value of an imperial bushel of wheat, barley, or oats, those provisions shall have effect as if the payment were to be calculated on the price or value of sixty imperial pounds of wheat, fifty imperial pounds of barley, or thirty-nine imperial pounds of oats, as the case may be.
(2) Where under the provisions of any Act or award or other instrument any payments are to be calculated on the price or value of any measure
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of wheat, barley, or oats other than the imperial bushel, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries may certify what number of imperial pounds ought, having regard to the foregoing provisions of this section, to be substituted for that other measure, and thereupon those provisions shall have effect as if the payment were to be calculated on the price or value of the number of imperial pounds so certified.
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON had an Amendment on the Paper, in subsection (2), after '"Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries" to insert "or as regards Scotland by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland." The noble Lord said: This is also a Scottish Amendment. They prefer that their weights should be settled by the ('hair-man of the Board of Agriculture in Scotland rather than by the Minister of Agriculture in England. I think, however, the word "by" in the Amendment should be omitted in order to make it read.
Amendment moved—
Clause 5, page 3, line 27, after ("Fisheries") insert (" or as regards Scotland the Board of Agriculture for Scotland.')— (Lord Clinton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

OVERSEAS TRADE (CREDITS AND INSURANCE) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, your Lordships will remember that last year you passed a measure to enable the Government to finance exports from this country, to countries distressed and disorganised by the war, to the extent of £ 26,000,000. "This Bill contemplates a different method of carrying out these advances. The old method was by direct advances. This Bill proceeds by guaranteeing bills drawn against exports from this country up to 80 per cent. of the face value of the bill. There are two advantages inherent in this method. In the first place, no money will pass except in the case of default, and, in the second place, the transaction of financing will be carried out in the ordinary way by the banks, with whom there will be as little interference as possible. There will, however, be this guarantee by the Government.

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One consequential Amendment is necessary, because these bills, when they have run for more than twelve months, will not be discounted by the banks. There is, therefore, a provision for extending the period up to September, 1924. This applies only to the original advances, and the whole matter comes to an end in September, 1925, when it is hoped that trade will have resumed its normal position. The only other change involved is that the British Empire is included, although it is not intended at present to finance transactions with India and the Far East.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Viscount Peel.)
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, before your Lordships consent to the Second Reading of this Bill, I shall be glad if the noble Viscount can give the House some information as to the extent to which guarantees have already been given under the Act of 1920, and the extent of the existing commitments. I should also like to know if any losses have been incurred under these guarantees up to the present time. The noble Viscount may not be able to give the information.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Yes, I can give it. I did not want to trouble the House with figures.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I think it is important.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The total amount of advances sanctioned is £ 2,612,639 1s. 11 d. The actual amount advanced is £ 1,007,363 19 s. 10 d. The advances repaid up to date amount to £ 30,504 5s. 2d. I understand that no losses have been incurred. The actual sums incurred in guarantees are very small as yet. If I may give a rough figure, they amount, I think, to about £ 6,000.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I am very much obliged to the noble. Viscount for that information. It certainly shows that the. national commitments are very serious. The noble Viscount says there have been no losses incurred up to date, which is a very reassuring statement. Have these advances that have been made been in all cases repaid when they were due. or do those advances now outstanding, although it is assumed that there will be no loss upon them, cover advances the time for
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the repayment of which has passed by? What debts are now owing?
VISCOUNT PEEL: I cannot answer that question with absolute certainty, but I was informed that the payments have been made at the proper dates. Whether there has been any delay in one case, I cannot state absolutely without inquiry, but I think the general position is so far satisfactory that repayments are being made to date.
On Question, Bill read 2ª. and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill repotted without amendment.
JURIES (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) (RENEWAL) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
TRUSTS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

EDUCATION (CONSOLIDATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.— (Viscount Peel.)
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two on this Bill before it leaves your Lordships' House. It is a Bill which has required a great deal of work from the very able Committee consisting of members of both Houses, and I want to pay my tribute to their painstaking efforts and to congratulate them on the fruits of their labours. Where a Bill of this kind repeals thirty-one Educational Statutes, one cannot but hesitate for one moment in accepting such a consolidation. First of all, I feel that to part with the great Education Act of 1870, and to have it obliterated entirely from the Statute Book, is a theme which causes one to think.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The great Act of 1902 is also superseded.
LORD GAINFORD: The Act of 1870 is. in my judgment, the sound foundation of all educational progress in this country. The Act of 1902, of course, would never have passed into law had it not been for its greater predecessor. What I wanted to say was that this seems to me to be an opportune moment for the passing of a Consolidation Bill into law. This is one of the few years in which an Amending Bill connected with education has not been introduced by the Government, and, therefore, it is an opportunity which ought to be seized. A Bill of this kind is very much wanted by the members of all the educational authorities in the country, and it is right that the public should be able to understand the Education Laws by a simple reference to one Statute, rather than have to wade through the mass of great Education Acts and the various Amending Acts which have been passed.
I wish to enter one caveat in connection with this Bill. It seems to me that it is being pressed through all its stages too rapidly, and that the public have not had an opportunity of examining it carefully. The Congregational Union, the National Union of Teachers and the National Educational Association have all expressed the wish that this Bill should be deferred, in order that adequate time could be given to the consideration of the form in which the Educational Law will now appear upon the Statute Book. If it appears in a new form it will probably last for a very long period, and therefore it is, from their point of view, important that it should be very carefully examined, and they make their protest because, they say they have not had full opportunity of examining its provisions.
I have no legal knowledge and it might be said that I ought at once to accept the certification by such an able Committee as has produced this Bill when they say that the contents embody the existing law. As a matter of fact, there are 173 clauses, 7 schedules, and several appendices in the Report, which shows that there are points of complexity arising out of questions both of phraseology and interpretation. It is alleged by some critics that the powers of the teachers have been interfered with, and have been amended by the provisions of this Bill. It is also asserted that higher education authorities have no longer the same power as they previously possessed to teach elementary
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education. I do not feel able to say whether those fears are well founded or otherwise, but it seems to me that the public ought to have had rather more time in order to satisfy themselves with regard to this Bill. A point which occurred to me, and which seemed to be rather extraordinary, was that instead of alluding to education taught in the elementary schools, as it has hitherto been referred to and defined as Part III of the Act of 1902, and the education which is taught in other than elementary schools as Part II, the authorities have inserted new words to allude to higher education. They make no reference to, or definition of, elementary education, but they do define higher education, and say that it is education other than elementary. That is, perhaps, only a small matter.
The chief point on which I would like to offer criticism is in connection with the provisions of the last Bill which was passed through the House of Commons as well as through your Lordships" House, and which was intended to abolish half-timers. When one reads the Bill one appears to feel that that abolition of half-timers is a part of the Statute Law, but the sting of the whole of this Bill, to me, is in the last paragraph of the last clause, in which it says—
"Provided that the appointed day for the purposes of Part IV of this Act and the repeal of the enactments relating to school attendance shall not be earlier than the termination of the war."
To all sensible people it must seem that we are no longer at war, and so many months have elapsed since Peace was signed with Germany and Austria that it is a matter of great regret that this Education (Consolidation) Bill lays down the law with regard to the abolition of half-timers and yet, on technical grounds, will prevent the abolition of these half-timers. Finally, while approving generally of the Bill, I wish to dissociate myself from any responsibility for its details, and to place that responsibility entirely upon the Government.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: I do not know that it is usual for a member of the House, who happens to have been Chairman of a Committee of this kind, to enter into anything like a defence of what was done by that Committee; and I do not think it would be desirable that I should create a precedent, because the whole position of Joint Committees appointed to deal with

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Consolidation Bills is one that I think I may describe as one of confidence. It is admitted by everybody that it is practically impossible to deal with Consolidation Bills on the floor of the House, and for a great many years both Houses have agreed in appointing members of the two Houses whom they think are competent to deal with these matters, without giving up liberty of criticism or even of proposing Amendments. It will be seen, if any one will study the Statute Book, that their conclusions are admitted in both Houses, and I am sure I may say that the result has been of great advantage to the form, and also to the substance, of legislation. Therefore I will not go into any of the points raised by my noble friend which appear to be criticisms of the work done by the Committee. I will only say this— and I must be pardoned if I appear to have forgotten my own modesty, because I am speaking not alone for myself but for all the members of the Committee— that I do not believe that any Committee has taken more pains in dealing with a subject before it than the Committee which has been sitting on this Bill. I have just seen my noble and learned friend, Lord Wrenbury, leave the House. The work which he did on the Committee must have astonished anybody who took an interest in that work.
LORD GAINFORD: I had no intention of reflecting in any way upon the Committee, The only criticism which I was attempting to make was that the Government were pressing this Bill through the House rather too rapidly.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: With regard to that it occurs to me that the remarks of the noble Lord were remarks that ought to have been made on the Second Reading. I certainly should have been glad myself if the noble Lord had made his remarks on the Second Reading, and possibly have saved me and others the task that we have gone through. But I think I remember that the noble Viscount (Lord Peel), when he introduced this Bill, stated to the House that it had been considered to more than the usual extent by various authorities interested, who are entitled to speak on these matters. I must say, from what appeared before us, that it seemed as if every consideration had been given to these matters.
I should like to refer to two points, because they arise on the Amendments
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which I have put down to the Bill. The first, in Clause 17, is with reference to public elementary schools. By a misfortune for which, perhaps, I must blame the printer, certain words which will be found in my first Amendment did not appear in the Bill as reprinted, and I have reason to think that that caused some misapprehension. I hope that putting in those words, which only restore the Bill to the form in which we settled it, will remove that misapprehension and, to some extent, meet what the noble Lord, Lord Gainford. said on the subject.
The other point dealt with in my Amendments is with regard to the time of the Act coming into operation. It really is a tremendous puzzle. There are some enactments-which, as the noble Lord has said. are actually postponed till the termination of the war, but the war is said not yet to be at an end, and nobody knows when it will be at an end. The Statute to which the noble Lord referred is one of the Statutes that we have to consolidate. and it was extremely difficult to know how to meet the matter, but we think we have met it by the words to which, as I understand, the noble Lord has taken objection. I think it is open to anybody to criticise that clause as it is, and if there is anybody so ingenious as to be able to propose a better clause I should not be sorry to see it in the Bill. I did not mean to suggest that the noble Lord has spoken unkindly about the Committee; on the contrary, I thank him for the words of a kindly nature that he introduced into his speech.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I must condole with the noble Lord opposite that the Act of 1870 is removed from the Statute Book, but I will point out to him that it is better that the achievements of the past should be buried in a Consolidation Act than in entire oblivion, and perhaps that will console him. But he made a criticism of the Government when he said that there was undue hurry in carrying this Bill. I do not think there is very much chance that this Bill, like others, will be removed at an early stage from the Statute Book, but I should like to say how very fully considered the whole matter has been. He suggests that the Bill ought to be hung up in order that the public might have some opportunity of criticising it. But surely this is one of those cases where the opinions of the public are

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absolutely valueless, because the whole point is whether this Consolidation Bill does, or does not, actually represent the existing Education Acts. That is a purely technical matter, suitable for the consideration of highly trained persons only. I do not know whether he has got any lawyers up his sleeve who may criticise the action of the distinguished lawyers on this Committee, but if so the only remedy would be to set up another Committee of lawyers to criticise these lawyers, and then, I suppose, another Committee to criticise the other lawyers. I think that would be a waste of time. There need be no anxiety as to any changes made by the Bill when the great care with which this Committee has; worked is known, and the high distinction of the lawyers who sat upon it.
On Question, Bill read 3ª.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: There are '' five Amendments down in my name. I think, as I have already alluded to the only two that do not raise merely verbal questions, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to move them without going into particulars.
Clause 17 (Duty to provide and maintain public elementary school accommodation):
Amendment moved—
Clause 17, page 9, line 7, after ("accommodation") insert (" that is to say, accommodation in public elementary schools").— (Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18 (Provision of new schools):
Amendment moved—
Clause 18, page 10, line 18, after the second ('" the") insert (" Administrative ")— (Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 76 (Compulsory attendance at continuation schools):
Amendments moved—
Clause 76, page 47, line 19, leave out from beginning of subsection (5) to ("where") in line 24
Clause 76, page 47, lines 30 and 31, leave out lines 30 and 31, and insert (" have effect as if the Appointed (lay were").— (Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 173 (Short title, extent and commencement):
Amendment moved—
Clause 173, page 98, lines 17 and 18, leave out ("except as otherwise expressly provided.").— (Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, that the Bill do now pass,— (Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

TERRITORIAL CADET FORCE REGULA TIONS.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I desire to ask His Majesty's Government when it is proposed to issue the revised Regulations governing the Territorial Cadet Force. I should like very briefly to explain the considerations which led me to put down this Question. As chairman of the recruiting committee of the County of Essex Territorial Association I have been brought into very close contact with the cadet movement throughout the county. The Force at present is regulated by War Office letters issued from time to time, and I am informed that these are not, in many cases, available for issue broadcast, and also that this method of administration by letter leads to a lack of co-ordination. For example, I understand that several counties have issued what amounts to their own regulations for their own counties, and I think my noble friend (Viscount Peel) will agree that that is not a very desirable, state, of things, though apparently it is inevitable under present conditions.
In my own county of Essex we are most anxious to re-organise and extend the cadet movement in every way in our power, and we hope very shortly to do so. There are one or two concrete difficulties in the way. The fact of the new Regulations not being issued makes certain matters not as clear as they should be; for instance, the mutual responsibilities between the Association and divisions with regard to the administration of cadets, and also of inspections. In mentioning that I should like to say that enormous encouragement has been given to the Cadet Force by General Woolcombe's inspection this year of all the cadets of the country. It has been brought to my notice that, owing to the manner in which the inspections were

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arranged for, there is something to be said for their being organised, in the first place, through the Associations instead of as they are at present. No doubt that is dealt with in the revised Regulations, or will be when they are issued. There is some uncertainty also with regard to the holding of camps.
Another matter has been brought to my notice in regard to officers of the Cadet Force. It would be an advantage if we could clear up the question of their status, and also if it were known what their qualifications should be, and what should be the limit of age— all matters of detail which we hope that the new Regulations, for which we are waiting, will make quite clear. Those interested in the cadet-movement on the county associations concerned have welcomed the increased attention which the War Office has paid to the movement. The increased provision of funds, inadequate though it was, still has been a source of immense encouragement. While, as members of the Association we recognise the great value to individual cadets of cadet training, and also the valuable asset it is to the country that so many young boys should go through this training, there is another point to which our attention is naturally drawn. We look upon these cadets as a potential source of recruits for the Territorial Force and, therefore, it is not helpful, to put it no higher, that we should not have before us the Regulations on which, and under which, we ought to work. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will be able to give me an assurance of the speedy issue of the Regulations for the Territorial Cadet Force. I ask the Question from a desire that what I believe is the intention of His Majesty's Government on the subject— namely, to make this Cadet Force a great reality and a more valuable asset than it can be under present conditions— shall be carried out.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I am well aware of the interest which my noble friend Lord O'Hagan takes in the Cadet Force and the extent to which he has assisted it in the county of Essex. He has raised one or two points in connection with inspection and administration; that is to say, the responsibility as between the Association and the Divisions. If he will inform me a little more in detail what those particular difficulties are I shall be very glad to get the information in regard to them.
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As he knows, a great deal has been done during the last few months in the way of assisting the Cadet Force. I am sorry that he still persists in his view that 6s is an inadequate grant per head. The force is being largely trained by means of games and competitions, and shields for this purpose have been given by His Majesty the King, the Prince of Wales, and various public bodies. Then, besides the 6s. per head to which I have alluded, a cheap rate of travelling to and from camp has been authorised. Drill pattern arms are issued free and camp equipment is issued on loan. Clothing and stores are issued, if possible, at reduced rates where it can. be done without expense to the public. 0·22 miniature rifles are also issued on loan and ammunition is supplied at special rates. Candidates can now sit to obtain certificate A, O.T.C., for the Army entrance examination and obtain the allowance of marks available to O.T.C. candidates. All these facilities I have mentioned are now in operation, pending the issue of the new Regulations.
The Regulations are dated 1914 and have been rather patched up periodically. No doubt it is high time that a fresh set should be issued. It is hoped, I understand, that will be done very shortly, probably in August, and I hope the conundrums which have vexed the soul of the noble-Lord may be found to be solved by the new Regulations. If my noble friend has any further difficulties I shall be very-glad if he will let me know, and I will see that they are dealt with.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount for the answer he has given to my Question. I should, however, like to have some further information in regard to the issue of clothing, which is a most important question in relation to the Cadet Force. As regards the 6s., in the south of my own county of Essex we have to deal with a large population in what is practically London-over-the-border. Such training as is given by the Cadet Force and other organisations is most necessary, and can be most valuable. Want of funds for uniforms is one of the greatest handicaps we have to bear, and, though I do not wish to pursue the subject, that is an illustration of why I have ventured again to put the point to the noble Viscount. As I say, I am very much obliged to him for what he has said and I am sure everybody will be

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glad to hear that the revised Regulations arc to be issued in August.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords, I should like to say a word about what has fallen from the noble Viscount. The quarterly meeting of the Council of the Territorial Association was held yesterday, and this was one of the questions considered. It was strongly felt that many things were necessary, but having regard to the tendency in the country generally to wave the anti-waste banner, I do not imagine that we shall send forward any definite suggestion. The Council strongly expressed the view that a good deal more ought to be done for the Cadet Force than is being done at present. It is generally admitted that the 6s. is inadequate, but what has fallen from the noble Viscount about clothing will, I think, be very satisfactory. I do not suppose it goes so far as the provision of a complete uniform. That was one of the suggestions made yesterday. The point as to the cost of rationing in camp was also raised and the desire was expressed that rations should be supplied for cadets when in camp. I understand that arrangements have been made for the cheaper transit of cadets to camp. I gather from what the noble Viscount has said that a good deal has been done, and it is hoped that more will be done later on. I refer to these questions only because they were raised at our council meeting yesterday and there was a rather strong expression of opinion that something more should be done for the Cadet Force.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Does the noble Earl mean free rations, or rations on repayment?
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I take it that the hope is that the rations would be free.
VISCOUNT PEEL: In addition to the 6s.?
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: Yes. May I say that everything is in addition.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, before the House adjourns I am rather anxious to ask the noble Earl two questions. The first has reference to the Housing (Scotland) Bill which stands upon
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the Paper but in regard to which, owing to the modification in the Government policy in respect of housing, there is a rumour that it will not be proceeded with. For the convenience of noble Lords sitting in all parts of the House I shall be glad to know whether there is any intention of proceeding with that Bill— I will not ask the Government to give me a final answer now— next week. That is the first question.
The other question is with regard to the Trusts (Scotland) Bill. That Bill passed through Committee this afternoon, and I apologise to your Lordships for not being in my place at the time. I want to ask the noble Earl, or the noble Lord who rexpresents the Scottish Office in this House, whether he is not of opinion that this Bill is being passed through Parliament with rather undue haste. I do not pretend to know anything about it, but it is a very complicated Bill and unless it is an absolutely agreed Bill it would be rather a strong measure, considering that it was only read a second time yesterday and passed through the Committee stage to-day, to proceed with it further until an opportunity has been afforded for those who are interested in the question to make representations, should they see fit. I must apologise to the noble Earl for not having given him notice of those questions. I thought I ought, at the earliest possible moment, to say that we hoped there, would be no undue pressure until we were certain that noble Lords who were interested in Scottish law questions had been satisfied that the Bill was quite non-controversial.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: The Trust (Scotland) Bill is, of course, in the main, a Consolidation Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But not entirely, I understand.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: In the main. There are certainly four or five amendments of the law which no doubt your Lordships would desire to consider. The Bill now stands on the Paper for Third Reading on Tuesday, but I propose, after what Lord Salisbury has said, to put that off till Wednesday, which at any rate will give Peers the opportunity of talking the matter over when they meet again on Tuesday next, and, if they so agree, we will take the Bill on Wednesday. If not, we can

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discuss the question of any further postponement which may be necessary. It is no doubt a long Bill. It is one of those Bills which have originated in this House, and I suppose it is desired to get it to the House of Commons as soon as convenient.
As regards the Housing (Scotland) Bill-my noble friend, Lord Stanmore, has put that down for Second Reading on Thursday of next week, so that the question does not press immediately between to-day and our next meeting. My noble friend hopes that
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on Tuesday next, or at all events on Wednesday, he will be in a position to make a general announcement on the subject. I suggest, therefore, that the Bill should remain down for the date at which it now stands— namely, this day week. I hope that during the first or second sittings of next week we shall be able to announce to your Lordships any change of policy, should any be decided upon.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past five o'clock.

ADAMSON'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to dissolve the Marriage of Eily Kathleen Adamson with Richard Graves Adamson, her present husband, and to enable her to marry again, and for other purposes: Presented, on Petition, and a copy of the Proceedings in, and of the 'Decree of Divorce of, the King's Bench Matrimonial Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland: Delivered (on oath): Bill read la, and to be read 2a on Thursday next.
The usual Orders made.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (SHEFFIELD EXTENSION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
NUNEATON CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
WALTHAM AND CHESHUNT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) (SOUTHPORT AND KTNGSTON-UPON-HULL ORDERS) BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Southampton Corporation Water Bill and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Metropolitan Water Board (Various Powers) Bill and the Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8) (Southport and Kingston-upon-Hull Orders) Bill; read, and agreed to.
All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.