Sitting of 25 June 1920

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Belfast Water Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Tees Conservancy Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Wear Navigation and Sunderland Dock (Finance) Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time upon Monday next.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899,
The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS reported, That, after conferring with the Chairman of Commitees of the House of Lords, for the purpose of determining in which House of Parliament the respective Bills under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, should be first considered, they had determined that the following Bills should originate in the House of Lords, namely:—
Life Association of Scotland Bill.
Royal Bank of Scotland Bill.
Report to lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  HOUSING (LUXURY BUILDING).
  Mr. HOGGE(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether his attention had been drawn to a statement which has appeared to the effect that he is con-
  2546
  templating the introduction of a measure to provide that no private building operations or repair works shall be undertaken except under a licence to be issued by the local authority and confirmed by his Department, and whether he can make an announcement?
  The MINISTER OF HEALTH (Dr. Addison): The statement to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention is without foundation. The provisions in the Housing (Additional Powers) Act in regard to the prohibition of luxury buildings seem to me to require some amendment, but I have no intention of proposing a system of licensing for this purpose.
  Mr. HOGGE: When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to introduce the amendment?
  Dr. ADDISON: The luxury provision may require some amendment. Various representations have been made to us by the local authorities as to their difficulties, and these are now being considered. I cannot say more than that at the present time.
  Mr. STURROCK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these provisions will apply to Scotland?
  Dr. ADDISON: All I can say is that at the present time we are considering the difficulties which have been put before us by the local authorities.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Does not the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health for Scotland have special supervision over these matters in Scotland?
  Dr. ADDISON: I am not competent to answer that question; I have nothing to do with it.
  Major BARNES: As this is a matter which affects not only the local authorities but the great building industry, architects, builders and everybody concerned, is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to confer with the industry before coming to any conclusion upon this matter? I think it would be some relief to the industry to know?
  Dr. ADDISON: We have taken that course in the past. The matter is quite in the early stage at the moment, but I am glad to have had the opportunity of

  2547
  correcting the statement which has appeared.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable effect to be given to a Convention for regulating Air Navigation, and to make further provision for the control and regulation of aviation." [Air Navigation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the county borough of Salford to make street works and improvements, and to construct tramways, and to provide and run motor omnibuses; to confer further powers with respect to their water, electric lighting, and markets undertakings; to make various provisions and to confer various powers in regard to the health and for the improvement and good government of the borough; and for other purposes." [Salford Corporation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to increase the tolls, rates, and charges authorised by the Londonderry Bridge Acts, 1859 and 1877." [Londonderry Bridge Commissioners Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Corporation of Merthyr Tydfil to construct a street work; to provide and work omnibuses, and to provide recreation grounds, and to make further provision with regard to the construction of waterworks and the supply of water by the Corporation; and for other purposes." [Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Bill [Lords.]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city of Cardiff to construct additional waterworks; to construct and work new tramways; and to provide and use motor omnibuses; to make further provision for the improvement, health, and good government of the city; and for other purposes." [Cardiff Corporation Bill [Lords.]
Air Navigation Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 150.]
Salford Corporation Bill [Lords],
Londonderry Bridge Commissioners Bill [Lords],
Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Bill [Lords],
Cardiff Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

CROYDON CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP F).
Sir Edward Nicholl reported from the Committee on Group F of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday, 5th July, at half-past Eleven of the Clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  RESIDENT MAGISTRATES (IRELAND) [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it is expedient to authorise further payments, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, for the salaries and allowances of Resident Magistrates in Ireland and to amend the Law relating thereto."
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry): This Resolution is preliminary to a Bill which is to be introduced for the purpose of increasing the salaries of resident magistrates in Ireland, and making a slight change in regard to qualification. There are 66 resident magistrates at the present time, and they are divided into three classes, 1, 2 and 3. There are 20 resident magistrates in Class 1, 32 in Class 2, and 14 in Class 3. The salaries are graduated according to the class. The maximum of Class 1 is £675, Class 2, £550; Class 3, £425. It is proposed in the Bill to amalgamate the three classes, and to fix the minimum salary on appointment at £500, the present minimum being £425, and the maximum at £700, the present maximum being £675. Instead of keeping separate classes there will be one class with an annual increment of £20 a year, ranging between £500 on appointment to £700 as the maximum. The increases are not very large. The Act under which the salaries were fixed was passed so long ago as 1874, and there has not been any increase in the salaries since. The duties of the resident magistrate are extremely onerous and they are exposed at times to very great risk.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Do these salaries include war bonus?
  Mr. HENRY: No.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the whole salary will be with bonus?
  Mr. HENRY: The war bonus will be about 25 per cent.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: What about allowances?
  Mr. HENRY: Allowances include railway fares when the magistrates are attending sessions. They are also allowed when they are absolutely detained on business a subsistence allowance, but they must be more than 20 miles from their house. As the resident magistrate must always reside in his district, that limits the charge in that respect. It is not proposed to increase the allowances. They will remain the same as before. The only difference is the increase in salaries. The war bonus will, of course, be governed by the ordinary rules relating to the bonus.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the war bonus permanent?
  Mr. HENRY: No. It is paid as a temporary emergency, and it is not proposed to make it permanent in this Bill.
  Mr. HOGGE: I should have thought that the Bill which will rest on this Financial Resolution is the kind of measure which ought not to have been taken at this time. We are passing through the House of Commons an Irish measure which proposes to entrust the Irish people with the management of their own affairs, and it does seem rather a premature step on the part of the Government to come down on a Friday morning and ask us to agree to overhaul a system which is obviously pertinent to the people of Ireland, and to the people of Ireland alone. I am surprised that the Government, in view of the fact that they are making, presumably, a perfectly honest and sincere attempt to hand over the government of Ireland to the people of Ireland, should want the British House of Commons to interfere in a perfectly personal matter affecting the appointment and salaries of resident magistrates. I do not think that any hon. Member who takes part in this discussion will differ from the view which I have expressed that this is a matter solely for the Irish Parliament. The memorandum which has been issued in connection with this Resolution shows that this Bill seeks to give power to the Lord Lieutenant. We have heard from time to time of what is known as Castle Government, and many of us agree that many of the ills from which Ireland is suffering—
  The CHAIRMAN: That may be in the Bill; I do not know, because I have not seen it, but it is not in this Financial

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  Resolution. This Resolution is required to authorise the Committee on the Bill to deal with the salaries of resident magistrates. The points of the Bill must be dealt with when the Bill is introduced.
  Mr. HOGGE: On the Financial Resolution, are we not entitled to discuss the policy that arises out of the appointment of those resident magistrates?
  The CHAIRMAN: No.
  Mr. HOGGE: If that be so, may I remind the Committee of the history of the appointment of resident magistrates by the Lord Lieutenant, and seek to show from one or two examples that the appointment of resident magistrates is not a satisfactory way of dealing with the question?
  The CHAIRMAN: No. This is purely a question of money, and nothing else. It simply is to empower the House and the Committee of the House to deal with the Bill which I suppose is going to be introduced. These matters may or may not be relevant when the Bill comes along. I cannot say until I see the Bill.
  Mr. HOGGE: Can we not discuss the appointment and qualification of resident magistrates?
  The CHAIRMAN: No—only the question whether the Committee will sanction this procedure, to enable the Bill to propose an increase of salary. We have been informed that this is all that is in the Bill. It is solely the money aspect that concerns us here to-day.
  Mr. HOGGE: In that case I will confine my remarks to the proposal to increase those salaries by the amount of £8,000. I suppose the argument for the increase is the necessity of meeting the present cost of living in Ireland. What the Bill proposes is to scrap an old arrangement of three separate classes of magistrates the lowest of which is receiving at least £420 a year, which is £20 more than members of this House receive, though they also are affected by the high cost of living, while the first-class goes to £675, and these magistrates are enjoying on those salaries the equivalent war bonuses. That is a considerable sum. Taking it at 25 per cent. it would
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  give on the £625 an increase of at least £160. The right hon. Gentleman did not give us any argument to justify the scrapping of the series of classes of magistrates. In Scotland you have, from the Lord Advocate downwards, certain appointments which are paid certain sums. Men enjoying the lesser posts and emoluments are men who are at the beginning of their legal career. And we want some justification for taking those resident magistrates from the lower classes and putting them on a minimum basis of £500, plus war bonus, which at 25 per cent. would bring the salary up to £625, which is the present maximum of first-class magistrates. Some reason should be given for extravagance of this kind. It is expenditure of British money. If I were allowed, I could advance reasons why the whole system should be done away with as being a bad system; but as I am not allowed to go into that, I beg the right hon. Gentleman to give some justification for raising those forty-six men up from the lower classes. I suppose that every one of these forty-six men will at once go on to the minimum of £500 with war bonus, and presumably the men in the other classes who have more than £500 will start at the figure which they have now, plus war bonus. I hope that we shall have some further explanation in view of the fact that this money is going to be spent on a policy which ought to be in the hands of the Irish people themselves, and not dealt with by the British House of Commons.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: This is an example of a method of procedure which ought to be strongly reprobated. We are dealing with a Money Resolution which concerns a Bill not yet got before us. It makes it extremely difficult to curtail the extravagance of the Front Bench opposite if they deprive us of a Bill, and the arguments for that Bill which we should naturally hear if it were introduced, before dealing with the Financial Resolution. I do not remember any previous occasion when we have had Financial Resolutions to debate before the Bill has been before the House.
  The CHAIRMAN: The Bill, according to our Rules, cannot be introduced and printed until the Resolution has been passed.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: It can get the First Reading, and be printed.
  The CHAIRMAN: No; when this Resolution has been accepted by the Committee and reported by the House, we shall then be told who will bring in the Bill.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Of course the Financial Resolution will come before the House again in that case. It is difficult to deal with a Resolution like this without knowledge of what the Government policy is concerning the reconstruction of the judiciary in Ireland. My principal objection to the Bill is, that by voting this money you are creating a vested interest just at a time when the whole question of Irish Government is in the melting pot, so that we in this country may be saddled for all time with the payment of these salaries.
  Mr. LYNN: No.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes, and if they get Home Rule, or an independent republic in Ireland, we shall be committed to these salaries to be paid from the Imperial Exchequer, and shall have around our necks this perpetual burden. It is this creation of vested interests which has to be watched very carefully. In India the same sort of thing has been going on, and with a great change in the political government coming close, you find all the permanent officials doing everything they can to entrench themselves, so that if the change of government results in their services being dispensed with they may be sure for all time of very large salaries for doing nothing. Now, when a Home Rule Bill is going through, when there are possibilities opened up that the Prime Minister, in conversation with the right hon. Gentleman for Derby (Mr. Thomas), may effect some real settlement of the Irish question, we should be very chary of saddling these negotiations or these proposals with definite vested interests which will have to be squared in coming to any sort of a settlement. I wish that the Resolution might be postponed and that this additional burden, which appears to be only £8,000 a year but involves us in far larger annual sums in future, could be postponed also, at any rate until the question of Home Rule has been settled. There is this further argument. The additional cost of living has hit the whole of the Civil Service throughout the country, and not merely in Ireland. It hits the
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  judges and stipendiary magistrates here just as hard as it hits the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. If you are dealing with the increased cost of living and with the readjustment of the War Bonus into a definite rise in salary all round, that should be part of a general scheme of readjustment and not refer merely to the resident magistrates in Ireland. I am an old resident magistrate myself and I have a great deal of sympathy with them. There are very few people connected with the courts in Ireland who are worse paid than these magistrates, and the increased cost of living hits them just as it hits others.
  The whole of the civil service should be dealt with simultaneously and not one class selected. The rise in the cost of living which has been universal, is less marked in the country districts of Ireland than, probably, in any other quarter of the globe. It is in the towns in a country such as this, and still more in countries where the coinage has depreciated, that you get this enormous increase in the cost of living. You are beginning with the wrong end of the stick by dealing with people in country districts in Ireland who are already in receipt of salaries with which, in conjunction with the Bonus, they can carry on. You should deal with the struggling class of permanent officials throughout Great Britain as well as Ireland. They have an even stronger case and an even more urgent need. Because I do not want to tie the hands of any future Irish Government, and do not want, if they refuse to have their hands tied, to saddle this country with permanent compensation for these officials, and because I think the whole question of raising the pay of the Civil Service should not be dealt with piecemeal but universally, I urge this Committee to think twice before it accepts this Resolution. This is the thin edge of the wedge. If you accept this, every other class of Civil servant will come along, and you will gradually get more and more money screwed out of the taxpayer for the benefit of the Civil servant. I think we shall have to pay much bigger salaries to Civil servants, but the question should be considered generally, and not in relation to one specific class.
  Colonel PENRY WILLIAMS: I rise to ask the Government to withdraw this

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  Resolution on a ground entirely different from that backed by my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Hogge). He seemed to be rather disturbed, and to take exception to £625 as being exorbitant pay. I should like to know whether these gentlemen are allowed to carry on any private practice by which they can supplement their income. If not, I say that £625 for a man in that position is entirely inadequate. I hope hon. Members will assist in pressing upon the Government the necessity of giving these gentlemen adequate remuneration, in view of very arduous duties performed in a very honest manner, and in view of the risks they run. Six hundred and twenty-five pounds is really only about £300 a year pre-war value. While I do not approve of assisting the Government which is carrying on in Ireland, I ask them to reconsider the whole question of the payment of these men. Resident magistrates have positions to keep up. They must live in a sphere of life that will enable them to command the respect of the people with whom they have to deal. They have not to be dependent in any way upon the people over whom they exercise jurisdiction. It is necessary, therefore, that they should have adequate remuneration, and I hope hon. Members will say something in support of that view.
  Mr. LYNN: I rise to endorse what has been said by the last speaker. He and I differ in politics, but I am glad to see that he looks at this matter from a reasonable point of view. I am rather surprised that my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Wedgwood), who has found safety in the Labour party, refuses to allow these magistrates to have a living wage. I should have thought that the first duty of one who is an enthusiast in the Labour party would have been to see that any man employed by the Government was paid adequately. There is no doubt whatever that under present conditions these resident magistrates are not being paid a living wage. Speaking for myself and for my colleagues, I say that we are in favour of paying them a decent and an adequate salary. The hon. Member who leads the Opposition (Mr. Hogge)—the real Leader of the Opposition—has complained about scrapping classes. As a matter of fact, all these magistrates are doing the same class of work. Is there
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  any reason why they should not get the same amount of salary?
  Mr. HOGGE: The hon. Member should explain why there are these three classes of magistrates, and why it is proposed to scrap them. We want to know. We might let you have this money if we knew.
  Mr. LYNN: The arrangement was originally made by an ulta-Tory Radical Administration. After all, the Radical is a Tory at heart. I see no reason why a man sitting in County Kerry should not have the same salary as a man sitting in County Antrim. As a matter of fact, a Kerry man has to do nine or ten times the amount of work. The friends of my hon. Friends opposite reside in Kerry, and they give more employment for the magistrates in Kerry. I suggest that men who do equal work should get equal pay. A reasonable proposition of that kind should appeal to the Labour Members opposite. The question really resolves itself into this, are these magistrates being paid an adequate salary for the work they do? I say they are not, and I hope therefore that the Committee will say that these men should be paid a living wage.
  Major BARNES: I am not at all out of sympathy with what has been said by my hon. Friend who has just spoken, but there are a great many people who are feeling the increased cost of living. That applies, though probably not quite so much, to Ireland as well as to this country. I had the opportunity yesterday of speaking in the Lobby to four or five men from Ireland and on this question of the present cost of living they said that Ireland was not at all a bad place to live in. Hon. Members opposite are interesting themselves in one class of officials but there is another class in Ireland who are feeling the increased cost of living very much. I refer to the teachers.
  Mr. DONALD: Were it not for obstruction from the Benches opposite, the teachers would have better salaries.
  The CHAIRMAN: I do not see that this question has anything to do with the present Bill, and I rule the reference and the interruption out of order.
  Major BARNES: When a measure is brought in to deal with one class owing

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  to increased cost of living, one might naturally expect that measures would also be brought in to deal with another large class of people in Ireland in whom members in all parts of the House are particularly interested. At question time yesterday strong pressure was put on the Government by the hon. Member for Ormeau (Mr. Moles) to deal with this matter to which I have referred and the answer was that there was not time, as there were a great many other measures to be dealt with. If the Government can find time to deal with the position of resident magistrates and sheriffs, why can they not find time to deal with the position of the teachers? I was a little surprised that the hon. Member who spoke last did not make that point.
  Mr. LYNN: I would have made the point only I thought that the Chairman would have called me to order had I attempted to do so.
  Major BARNES: As to the suggestion that there has never been any opposition from this side I think I can say that if a measure were brought in dealing purely with the question of the salaries of teachers no opposition would have been raised in any quarter of the House, but it had other matters attached to it. I assume that the Bill founded on this Resolution will be confined to the proposals contained in it and that there will not be any question of adding to the number of the magistrates. I think it would be wrong to base any opposition to this Bill on the question of the duties these officers are performing. There they are and those duties have been laid upon them and I think they discharge them very fearlessly and under very great difficulties. I think some very pertinent remarks were made by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Wedgwood). We are passing a Bill which proposes to give hon. Members opposite control of their own affairs in the North of Ireland and I assume that that power will include control of their officials and the salaries to be paid. There is the possibility that Northern Ireland might decide to dispense with this particular class of magistrate. In that event what would be the effect of this proposal upon the obligations of the British taxpayer. We propose to advance these salaries and I do not suggest that that advance is unreasonable, but will it become the basis of pension allowances,
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  or if a change were made say in the Northern Parliament, would it mean an increased charge on the taxpayers of this country? I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will explain the reason for abolishing the different classes of magistrates. There must have been some reason for it. The suggestion was made by the hon. Member for Woodvale that these resident magistrates were the result of a measure passed by an ultra-Tory-Radical Government. The Bill was passed in 1874, and I am under the impression that Lord Palmerston was Prime Minister and that was not an ultra-Tory-Radical Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Beaconsfield."] I am told I am wrong as to who was Prime Minister, but I do not think I am wrong in saying that there certainly was not an ultra--Tory-Radical Government. The sum of £8,000, is mentioned as being the additonal cost to the Exchequer. May I ask whether this £8,000 is the ultimate cost to the Exchequer or the cost which will arise on the first Order made after the passing of this Bill, and therefore liable to be increased as time goes on?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My memory does not go back to 1874, and I do not propose to go into the history of the appointment of resident magistrates in Ireland. I have no hostility to them. I think they functioned pretty well up to about a year ago, and the reason why they ceased to function was owing to the bad faith of the Government to Ireland. I propose to vote against this increase of salaries. My first objection to it is that I do not like the idea of giving this power to the Lord Lieutenant. The whole power over the judiciary, paid and unpaid, should be vested in the Parliament or Parliaments to be set up in Ireland, and this sort of legislation, which reserves certain things, and the policy of the Government in pretending they cannot trust the Irish Parliaments, is only in line with their general insult to that long-suffering race. I cannot understand why my hon. Friends representing North-East Ulster support it, because I should have thought they would take it as an affront. They are going to set up a Parliament in Northern Ireland, and I should have thought they would be jealous to see that every possible power was given to that Parliament. I hope, therefore, I shall have the support of those hon. Members. I have another very

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  strong objection to the Resolution, but may I first pour a little praise on the Government? I welcome their apparent intention to give equal pay for equal work, and I hope the next time this principle is sought to be applied in other legislation we shall have the Government's support. The greatest objection my Friends and I have to this expenditure of money is that the resident magistrates over a great portion of Ireland are not doing their work. The law in Ireland is not being administered by His Majesty's Government.
  The CHAIRMAN: That has already been ruled out of order when the hon. and gallant Member was not here.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not wish to transgress a ruling which I did not hear, but am I in order in raising the point that there is an extreme probability that martial law is to be applied in Ireland?
  The CHAIRMAN: This Resolution authorises the bringing in of a Bill to raise the salaries of the resident magistrates in Ireland.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My contention is that the resident magistrates are not functioning, and therefore I object to voting money for duties which are not being carried out.
  The CHAIRMAN: We are not voting any money at all by this Resolution.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: But we are authorising money.
  The CHAIRMAN: No, we are authorising a Bill to be brought in, and the Bill may authorise expenditure. That is the occasion when the hon. and gallant Member should object to it.
  Captain W. BENN: On a point of Order. May I ask whether the Resolution which you put was not "That it is expedient to authorise further payments—?" Does not that permit us to discuss what the payments are for?
  The CHAIRMAN: Certainly—to discuss whether a Bill is to be allowed to be brought in to raise the salaries of magistrates.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: If I object strongly to the Bill which has been outlined by the Government, may I
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  not try to persuade the Committee to prevent that Bill even being introduced? I object very much to the proposed Bill, and I am trying to take the constitutional means of preventing even its introduction, or the expense of its printing, because, in conjunction with a great many other Bills dealing with Ireland, which the Government have introduced, it is literally, in my opinion, not worth the paper it is printed on. It is within the knowledge of the Committee that the only real justice that is being meted out in Ireland is in those parts where the irregular Courts are functioning. The party of law and order, or the so-called Unionists—
  The CHAIRMAN: That does not arise. The hon. and gallant Member cannot proceed unless he find something more relevant.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I will wind up my remarks in one sentence, by saying that I consider this money that we are asked to vote a waste of money.
  Mr. R. MCLAREN: I presume these resident magistrates are Civil servants, and if so I am rather surprised that their income is to be so small. I am very much astonished to find that the Government have been so niggardly, not only in connection with salaries, but in the matter of the War Bonus of these resident magistrates. In the Civil Service of this country, the War Bonus has been not less than 30 per cent., and why these men should only get 25 per cent. I am at a loss to understand. A magistrate, who, I presume, has got a good education, receives only £625, less income tax, whereas in my own district there are ordinary working-men with no responsibility as well off. I think the Government should treat these men more generously, and that the War Bonus should be at least equal to that of the Civil Service.
  1.0 P.M.
  Major HAYWARD: I had not the advantage of hearing the opening of this Debate, but I am informed that the Minister in charge of this Resolution did not explain to the Committee what the final financial obligations were likely to be under this Bill when introduced; and, reading the Resolution together with the White Paper, there are one or two obvious questions, which, I think ought

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  to be cleared up before a decision is arrived at in this matter. As pointed out by my hon. and gallant Friend, the estimated additional cost to the Exchequer in the first year only will amount to £8,000, but it is stated in the White Paper that it is proposed to substitute by order made from time to time a scale rising by annual increments. I think the Committee ought to know what those annual increments will finally amount to. There is a further point. According to the White Paper, £8,000 is in respect of salaries, but the Resolution provides for salaries and allowances. I do not know whether the word "salaries" alone in the White Paper is a deviation from the meticulous care, which usually characterises a Government department in preparing these papers, or whether it implies that there is something additional, in the way of allowances, to the sum mentioned in the White Paper. This information really goes to the root of the whole matter so far as the financial aspect of the question is concerned.
  Captain W. BENN: This, of course, is a Resolution on which a Money Bill is to be founded. So that the whole gravamen of the proposal is a financial one, and, therefore, it is quite natural that we should examine it with care, because the main element is expense. I shall not apologise, therefore, if I go into some detail from the financial point of view. We are asked to vote to day under the first Order £8,000, under the second Order some hundreds of pounds, under the third some thousands, and under the fourth £10,000,000. That is the program for one day of the Government, which is striving in every way to seize—I think it was the expression of the Chancellor of Exchequer—every opportunity or reducing the floating debt. I have not the least intention of challenging the right of these magistrates to have reasonable salaries. Without going back on anything I have said about the Irish question, I really think the resident magistrates are very brave men. But that does not mean that I approve in the least of the infamous system under which they are working. I admire their courage, and no one desires to reduce their pay or to see that they do not get a proper remuneration. What we do say is that, before we are asked, in the words of the Resolution, "to authorise
  2570
  further payments," we want to know first of all whether we approve of the expenditure, and, secondly, whether further payments are required. As regards further payments, there is a certain amount of money at present available with which to pay resident magistrates. A most significant sidelight on Irish Administration is the fact that these judges—for they are judges—are paid out of Supply. All other judges are paid out of the Consolidated Fund, which means, of course, they are out of reach of the power of the Executive; but not so resident magistrates, who are paid out of Supply, so that the Castle can regulate their procedure so far as they consider proper so to do. Therefore, there is a certain amount of money voted hitherto in Supply for the payment of these resident magistrates. What was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is perfectly true, that in a large part of Ireland, resident magistrates' Courts and many other Courts are being administered in another way, so that out of the pool from which resident magistrates are paid, a certain amount must surely be available for the areas where other Courts are operating in their rough-and-ready way to preserve law and order. Let us suppose, for example, that step by step the area of another domination is extended, are we to go on indefinitely extending the amount of financial provision for the judiciary, though in the greater part of the island it ceases to have any function? The right hon. Gentleman addresses the House with a charm of manner and great courtesy, but it does not provide the amount of information desired, and we ought to know how far he is going to ask the House for more money without explaining his attitude towards the fact that, as regards the judiciary, a large part of the country is derelict, and cannot cost anything. The Government are constantly introducing Bills to reduce the number of resident magistrates. Has that no financial bearing? There was a Bill for extending the Defence of the Realm Regulations in Ireland. Under those Regulations certain Courts are held by resident magistrates, but, in order to strengthen the grip of the Castle over the judiciary, and in order to remove any element of the semblance of a Court or jury there might be, the number of resident magistrates to constitute a Court was reduced.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. D. M. Wilson)indicated dissent.
  Captain BENN: If the hon. and learned Gentleman looks up the Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act, he will find it is so.
  Mr. WILSON indicated dissent.
  Captain BENN: I remember quite well we protested against the number of resident magistrates. If these men are not to be employed, why should we increase the outlay? The fact of the matter is that the functions of this body are dying of atrophy, because it has not the public approval to keep it alive. Despite that, the Government ask us to hand out more money. It is not our intention by any means, although it may be thought by some to be so, to deprive the resident magistrates of a proper salary, but we say the money available is sufficient if properly distributed.
  There is one small point to which I wish, in passing, to draw the attention of the Attorney-General. Under the Act of 1874, which an hon. Member in the course of the Debate has described as having been passed by an ultra-Radical statesman—Section (5), in addition to the allowance paid for travelling—that is Sub-section (2)—there is a further allowance for actual absences from home, and so on. That is the Section to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman referred. But what about the first part of the Section? In addition to the salaries provided by this Act—that is the salary to which he referred as being set out in the Schedules—to be paid to every magistrate heretofore or hereafter appointed under the authority of the Act of 1836, there shall be an allowance for travelling of £100 per annum…" I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he was not a little inaccurate in setting out the emoluments of these resident magistrates by omitting with the £100 travelling allowance the additional allowance which they may receive from time to time in respect to actual absences from home? I conceive this to be the right time for a protest on this matter to be made, and against the method by which the magistrates are controlled, because it is, I think, by the design of the Government that they have been put outside the refuge or sanctuary in which the judiciary of this country resides, and put within the control of the executive.
  The CHAIRMAN: We cannot go into that aspect of the case. We are dealing at present, I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman, with the question of salaries for the resident magistrates.
  Captain BENN: I will not pursue that further, except to refer to the White Paper, and to the abolition of the three classes. Why were there ever three classes? In the first place, why does the Government seek under the resolution and the Bill to be founded upon it to retain control of the salaries of these magistrates? The reason, I believe, is—and I say these words with a full sense of responsibility—because the executive desire to retain a degree of control over the resident magistrates which is absolutely improper if they are to preserve their judicial functions and character. Anybody who knows anything about administration in Ireland knows that is so.
  Mr. ARCHDALE: It is not.
  Captain BENN: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain why? Who is to decide whether a resident magistrate has to have a rise or not? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me?
  The CHAIRMAN: What we are dealing with at present is whether or not an annual increment shall be granted.
  Captain BENN: I remember the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and I understand that an order may be made from time to time varying the scales of salaries, so that there is a discretion left to the executive. It is to that that I object. The fact of the matter is that the Castle may by order alter the scale of increments paid to resident magistrates. I think that is highly improper. A magistrate in the exercise of his judicial functions, and in coming to a decision, ought to feel that his emoluments are not affected by that decision. So far as I can judge it is possible to make an order from time to time varying the scale of increments to these magistrates. It is useless for the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lyon) to demur by nodding his head. The effect of the Bill will be to abolish the statutory salary applicable to these men. A man under the Act of 1874 knew what he was going to receive. There is now to be substituted an order which from time to time may alter the scale of salaries received and

  2573
  the annual increment, so that if a magistrate is a good magistrate, and satisfies the requirements and ideas of the Castle, it is within their power to see that everything is satisfactory so far as he is concerned. I think that is very improper. I have always objected to what Mr. Gladstone—and here I would remind certain members of the Liberal and Labour Parties who are afraid to speak their mind on Irish administration—called these "Re-Movable" magistrates. That was Mr. Gladstone's expression.
  Where do we stand when we have passed the resolution and when the Bill has become law? Will the Bill authorise the executive to pay into Supply services year by year these new salaries of the magistrates amounting to a total annually of apparently £8,000? I think we ought to know that because it is a very important point. I cannot deal in detail with the Government's Irish proposals, even as affecting the judiciary, but I may point this out, that the higher ranks of the judges are specifically made a reserve service, but the magistrates are not.
  Mr. HENRY: They are.
  Captain BENN: Clause 46 of the Government of Ireland Bill says that
  "During his continuance in office his salary shall not be diminished or his rate of pension altered without his consent."
  So that let the House realise that if we pass this resolution and if the Bill based upon it becomes law, these will finally be a charge upon the Supply services of this country. I suppose it means that. That is rather a different matter from that of the mild statement made by the Attorney General. We should like to know more definitely what the final charge is, and how far the disappearance of the functions of the courts—I do not mean in an offensive sense, but without duties—have rendered the magistrates without work; and therefore how far it is possible to contract the numbers in view of the diminished work, and in view of the requirements the Government themselves have made? What exactly is the position of these magistrates both as reserved services and at the time of Irish union? Here is a point to which I would direct the attention of the Attorney General; it is true that this is a reserved service until such
  2574
  time as the union takes place, and that after the time of union the service becomes transferred. When the service is transferred will there come a charge upon the consolidated fund of this country?
  The CHAIRMAN: That matter does not arise on this Money Resolution, but it can be dealt with effectively by an Amendment to the Bill.
  Captain BENN: The ultimate charge is a point of substance, but I have not the least desire to go beyond what is proper under the Money Resolution. It is a question which I submit is worthy of reply, but I will not say more than that about it. I venture to think that I have put a few questions which deserve a reply, and if the right hon. and learned Gentleman with his usual courtesy will deal with the points which I have raised, I am sure that he will satisfy the legitimate desire of the Committee for information.
  Mr. HENRY: My hon. and gallant Friend, I fear, must be suffering for the moment from loss of memory. He referred to an occasion when we did propose a Bill with one resident magistrate in it, but I would remind him that I accepted an Amendment from himself to put in two magistrates.
  Captain BENN: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right. It is a very ungrateful thing that I should have forgotten that fact, but at the moment my mind was concentrated on the original beneficent proposal of the Government. I apologise to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. HENRY: The Treasury have agreed to supplement the salaries of these magistrates to this extent, and the Bill will provide for the concurrence of the Treasury before any further increase can be given. The House may rest assured that extravagance will not be the main point of the Treasury, especially in a question of this sort. One of these resident magistrates has lost his life, and a salary of £500, rising by annual increments to £700, is not an unreasonable sum.
  Captain BENN: It is not a fixed sum.
  Mr. HENRY: It will be always open to the Treasury, concurring with the Lord Lieutenant, to give a slight increase, but it will have to appear on the Votes of this

  2575
  House. The sum already sanctioned by the Treasury is not unreasonable, and, whatever sum be granted, it will have to be voted by the House.
  Mr. HOGGE: The intention is to substitute by order made from time to time it does not say by whom—a scale or scales of salaries rising by annual increase. My right hon. and learned Friend said that the minimum was £500 and the maximum £700, and this White Paper says that someone by order can alter that maximum and also the increment. Can that be done without coming back to this House, and who are the people who are to give this order?
  The CHAIRMAN: That is a proper point to raise on the Bill or to make the subject of an Amendment to the Bill, but it is not pertinent here on this Money Resolution.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I have listened very carefully practically to the whole of this Debate, and I do not rise to oppose the Resolution, but I should like to ask whether it is the intention that the Treasury shall be represented this afternoon. Although it is Friday, it is practically a Supply Day, because we have no less than four Money Resolutions down on the Paper. I agree that this is a very small sum, although it is an indefinite sum, and although we do not in the least know what it is going to be in the future, but when we come to the fourth Resolution a sum of £10,000,000 is involved. I must say that it is treating the House with a want of respect that there should not be a single representative of the Treasury on that Bench. I should like to point out that these Resolutions are not on the Paper in the name of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but in the name of the representative of the Treasury. They are supposed to be moved by the Treasury, and, after all, it is the business of the Treasury to look after the interests of the taxpayer. It is not respectful to the House that we should have a long series of Money Resolutions and that the Treasury should not be represented. You cannot expect the public outside to go in for economy if day after day they see money spent in this House with the Government evidently taking absolutely no interest in the proceedings.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I would like to assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that we on these benches have no quarrel whatever with him. He has made an admirable and clear statement of the case for this Bill, but I would like to emphasise what my hon. Friend (Mr. Locker-Lampson) has said. Here we are voting money and we have merely the spending Departments represented. without the Treasury dogs to look after the expenditure. We have been told over and over again that if only we would put our finger on a single spot where money could be saved the Chancellor of the Exchequer would save it. Here we are voting millions of money on a Friday afternoon without any check from the Treasury. Why are we asked to make this additional contribution to the salaries of this particular class of civil servants instead of dealing with all the civil servants in Ireland or elsewhere? Why is this particular branch of the Civil Service being dealt with at the present time? Is it because he is in danger? I agree that he is in danger and that he is showing great courage in danger, but let us have it stated if that be so. I would point out that there have been many people in danger during the last five years. They have worked for a smaller salary than the resident magistrates in Ireland, and they have done it willingly, because they knew that it was for the honour of this country. We want some explanation as to why this particular branch of the civil service should have a special enactment to raise their salaries while other branches of the Civil Service have not. We ought to have an explanation as to whether by passing this Money Resolution we are creating a new vested interest or merely increasing a vested interest that already exists. I notice that in the original Act of 1874 the appointment was made by the Lord Lieutenant or chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, whereas in this Resolution it is the Lord Lieutenant, alone. I am a little nervous lest we are creating a vested interest, which, in case the Lord Lieutenant vanishes, will require compensation as against a vested interest which at present is dependent upon the goodwill not only of the Lord Lieutenant but also of the Governor or Governors of Ireland. What I am really anxious about is that we should not, by the passage of this Resolution, create a fresh vested interest, which will have to be compounded on the

  2577
  passing of the Home Rule Act or any other Act, and which would involve this country in a large capital expenditure in addition to this more or less reasonable annual expenditure. The sum of £8,000 a year is not much, but if a capital of £45,000 at 25 years' purchase is going to be involved, then that is a considerable sum to add to the liabilities of this country. I want an assurance that we are not creating a vested interest which may amount to £800,000 capitalised, and which would have to be paid in compensation to those resident magistrates if they lost their jobs under a Home Rule Bill, or through secession.
  The CHAIRMAN: I have already answered that point, which can be dealt with only by an Amendment to the Bill. There is nothing in the Resolution which commits us on that matter.
  Mr. HENRY: The reason the Bill is necessary is that it would be possible to increase the salaries of other civil servants without a Bill, but under the Act of 1874 the salaries of resident magistrates are fixed by Statute; therefore a Bill is necessary.
  Captain BENN: I understand that it would be quite possible to introduce in Supply a Supplementary Vote for the
  salaries of resident magistrates, but by passing a Resolution are we in some way committing ourselves in a sense more than we do simply by a Vote in Supply, which, of course, becomes an Act in the Appropriation Act. I should like to know where there is anything in that point, and where by this Resolution there is any further commitments?
  The CHAIRMAN: I have said several times that we are not committing ourselves by this Resolution.
  Mr. KILEY: Attention has already been drawn to the absence of any representative of the Treasury, and I was under the impression that some action would be taken, and that a representative would be sent for. I have seen several representatives of the Treasury about the building, and the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Towyn Jones)—
  The CHAIRMAN: That is not in order.
  Question put, "That it is expedient to authorise further payments, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, for the salaries and allowances of Resident Magistrates in Ireland and to amend the Law relating thereto."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 110; Noes, 8.

  Division No. 159.]

  AYES.

  [1.29 p.m.

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Hallas, Eldred

  Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

  Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Hanna, George Boyle

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Harris, Sir Henry Percy

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

  Atkey, A. R.

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

  Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

  Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Hinds, John

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

  Hood, Joseph

  Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

  Borwick, Major G. O.

  Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Seddon, J. A.

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Jesson, C.

  Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Brown, Captain D. C.

  Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

  Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

  Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

  Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

  Stevens, Marshall

  Burdon, Colonel Rowland

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Stewart, Gershom

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Sugden, W. H.

  Cope, Major Wm.

  Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

  Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lindsay, William Arthur

  Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

  Lorden, John William

  Taylor, J.

  Dawes, Commander

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham)

  Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

  Lynn, R. J.

  Thomas-Stanford, Charles

  Dixon, Captain Herbert

  Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Donald, Thompson

  McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Edge, Captain William

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Watson, Captain John Bertrand

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

  Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

  Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

  Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

  Mitchell, William Lane

  Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Moles, Thomas

  Woods, Sir Robert

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

  Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

  Gould, James C.

  Nall, Major Joseph

  NOES.

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

  Tellers for the Noes.—

  Hayward, Major Evan

  Myers, Thomas

  Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Colonel Wedgwood.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Lawson, John J.

  Swan, J. E.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Resolution to be Reported upon Monday next.

  SHERIFFS (IRELAND) [SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, for carrying out the provisions of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law relating to the offices of sheriff and under-sheriff in Ireland, and for other purposes incidental thereto, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of annual sums not exceeding two hundred and fifty pounds each to under-sheriffs and of increased salaries not exceeding forty pounds per annum each to process servers who are also bailiffs."
  Mr. HENRY: This Resolution deals with the position of salaries of under-sheriffs and bailiffs in Ireland. The under-sheriff in Ireland is at present appointed by the high sheriff. He holds office for a year or during the period of office of the high sheriff. At present he is remunerated by a grant from the county, supplemented by one allowed by the Treasury. In most cases he gets £100 a year from the county, and about the same from the Treasury. In addition to that, during assize times the Treasury allow him a remuneration of £3 3s. per day. What we propose to do is that out of moneys provided by Parliament there should be paid to the under-sheriff of the county and borough of Dublin the sum of £250, to the under-sheriffs for other county boroughs the sum of £150, and to the under-sheriffs for the counties the sum of £200. That is the Government contribution, and the result of carrying this measure will be that the total increased expenditure will amount to £362, the savings effected by cancelling the payments now made almost balancing the sum which the House is asked to vote. The present allowance in respect of under-sheriffs and assize expenses is £8,300. The new figure is £8,662.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: How many sheriffs are there?
  Mr. HENRY: There are 32 counties in Ireland and 3 county boroughs each with one under-sheriff and, in addition, in the case of Tipperary there are two sheriffs. This Bill has been promoted by the Government as a result of representations from various bodies representing mercantile interests in Ireland. A Committee was appointed to investigate the question, the Chairman of which was the Recorder of Dublin. Among its members were the President of the Incorporated Law Society, the President of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, Sir George Fottrell, the Clerk of the Crown and Peace for Dublin, and a representative of the Treasury, and it is in consequence of the recommendations of that Committee that this Bill has been brought forward. The object is not so much to increase the salaries of the under-sheriffs as to give them fixity of tenure. At present they are liable to be dismissed at the end of the year. In the future they will hold office under appointment by the Lord Lieutenant, and they will become permanent officials. They will also act as returning officers and it is obvious, having regard to the responsible duties they will have to discharge, they should have some fixity of tenure.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Do we understand that this Bill involves only an additional expenditure by the Exchequer of £362?
  Mr. HENRY: That is in respect of under-sheriffs. In addition, however, recommendations are made by the Committee that men should be appointed as bailiffs to execute decrees of the County Courts and judgments of the Superior Courts. Those who at present in the County Courts serve civil bills get a sum of £20 per year. Originally they had £10. It is proposed to take a certain number of the best of these men and to appoint them at a salary of £40—an increase of £20 on their present remuneration, and for a certain class of business they will get small fees in addition. It is very desirable to have fairly decent men in these positions and I cannot think it will be suggested that £40 is an excessive remuneration.
  Captain BENN: How many are there?
  Mr. HENRY: I will give the exact numbers in Committee, but I should think that six for each county would be ample. That would mean 170 appointments, and the additional salary of £20 represents a total of £3,400. I may remind the Committee that the County Courts contribute considerably to the taxes, for each proceeding, however small, 1s. goes to the Exchequer, and if the sum involved exceeds £5, the contribution to the Exchequer is 1s. 6d. There are further stamp duties in the case of decrees and so on, and it is very desirable in the interests of the mercantile community that these men should have a reasonable salary. I have said that, respecting the Under-Sheriffs, £262 represents the total additional charge for the Treasury. Of course, we provide that the municipalities shall contribute as well, but that is quite a distinct charge. Their contributions, how-over, will be slightly increased.
  Captain BENN: Is the amount of the contribution of the municipalities taken into account in this estimate?
  Mr. HENRY: I think my hon. Friend will find that Dublin provides £350 as against the Government's £250 for the Under-Sheriffs. The counties provivde £250, against £150 from the Treasury.
  Captain BENN: I asked that question because, of course, if the amount we are now voting depends on the amount which the municipalities are prepared to vote, we shall have to consider whether or not there is any likelihood of the municipalities refusing to contribute.
  Mr. HENRY: It is not a matter of voting. The municipalities at present contribute, under Statute, to the up-keep of the Under-Sheriffs, sums varying from a maximum of £150 downwards. It is not proposed in any way to increase, beyond the figures that are here set out, the amount payable by the municipalities. The matter dealt with in the Resolution involves merely an increase of £362 from the Treasury in respect of the Under-Sheriffs, and a sum which I shall be able to deal with clearly in Committee, but which I estimate at about £4,000, in order to provide for the bailiffs.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The increase in the fees or salaries of the Under-Sheriffs is borne both by the Exchequer and by
  2582
  the local authorities. Is the increase in the salaries of the process servers borne partly by the Exchequer and partly by the local authorities, or does it all fall on the Exchequer?
  Mr. HENRY: It is all borne by the Exchequer.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It seems to me that this is a matter which is more important than appears at first sight. An increase of £362 seems small, and I rather felt inclined to let it go, as we vote millions with such cheerfulness. What the right hon. Gentleman said, however, put a rather different complexion upon it, and I am sorry that more hon. Members do not see fit to supervise this expenditure of public money. This seems to me to be peculiarly a matter which ought not to be decided by this House, but ought to be left to the Irish legislative bodies which are to be set up. This is the second of these money Resolutions affecting the judiciary in Ireland which has been brought before the Committee to-day, and when I see Bill after Bill affecting these small details of Irish judicial life, I suspect strongly that the Government are not in earnest in their policy. I should not be in order in discussing that policy, but this small resolution is another straw showing which way, not the wind, but the gale is blowing. The previous Resolution was brought in on the ground of levelling up the remuneration of resident magistrates, and I think we all welcome the Government's conversion to the doctrine of equal pay for equal work. This Resolution does exactly the opposite. We are asked to vote money to remunerate the Under Sheriff in Dublin at a different rate from the Under Sheriffs in the country. I can understand the argument that it is more expensive to live in Dublin than in the rest of Ireland. I do not know if it costs more to live in Belfast, to which I suppose this applies. The hon. and learned Gentleman has a wider experience of living in both places than I have, but I have certainly found Dublin to be not a cheap place to live in, although the rest of Ireland is very cheap. If his argument is that the addition is made because it costs more to live in Dublin, I think it is a most mischievous argument. I objected very much during the War to the differentiation in regard to pensions in London.
  Mr. HENRY: The reason for the larger amount in Dublin is that there is much more work there. The Courts are sitting constantly, whereas in Belfast they only sit for Assizes.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: That explains that part of the matter, but not the difference between the remuneration in the county boroughs and in the counties. I do not know if the same explanation applies there.
  Mr. D. WILSON indicated assent.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I understand from the hon. and learned Gentleman that it does, and, personally, I am satisfied with that explanation. The next objection I have to this is that this sum of money is grossly inadequate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the under-sheriffs must be persons of some position. That means that they have a position to keep up, and it is proposed that they should do that on from £200 to £350 a year. I take it that there are certain fees, but that is the only sum that they can rely upon. In view of the increased cost of living, I consider that to be quite inadequate. I do not believe in our approving of sweated wages, and I shall have to vote against this Resolution for that reason, if for no other. To ask persons of some position, exercising important judicial functions, to live on this guaranteed wage, is, to my mind, an insult, and I am afraid it will be accounted one more affront that is put upon Ireland by this Parliament. These admirable persons, under Clause 3 of the Bill, are practically prohibited from accepting any other employment. They are not allowed to practice as barristers or solicitors in any Civil Bill Court, in the Court of Quarter Session, or at Assizes. I do not know whether they are allowed to engage in trade or farming, or by any other means to increase their livelihood, but they will have to do something of the sort in order to live and keep their families in any sort of decency.
  With regard to the bailiffs, who are being given the princely sum—again in addition, of course, to fees—of £40 a year certain, that seems to me also to be simply heinous. I suppose they are responsible people, and have to be incorruptible. There are 170 of them in all, and the total sum they receive from the municipalities is £3,400 a year. The hon. and
  2584
  gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) asked the right hon. and learned Gentleman about the case of the municipalities refusing to pay, and I think that ought to be cleared up. Otherwise, hon. Members might be under the impression that they were only voting an additional £360, which was not much to quarrel about. This, however, is a matter of £3,400 in the event of the municipalities refusing to pay. A great many muncipalities in Ireland are, of set purpose, deliberately refusing in any way to help the Local Government Board or the Executive—in fact, they are almost obstructing—and I should think there will be many cases of refusal to pay. Although the Crown can put the law in motion to attach their property and distrain upon them, that would mean a great deal of delay, and in the meantime these unfortunate bailiffs would be on their beam ends. Undoubtedly the Treasury will make advances, and this House will be asked to authorise the payment of the sums involved. I think that matter ought to be cleared up before we pass this Resolution.
  Finally, I come to the most damning part of this Resolution and the Bill which is founded on it, in that this gives more power to the Lord Lieutenant to appoint persons to public offices because of their political opinions. Under the Bill the power of appointing these under-sheriffs—I take it there are people who wish to be under-sheriffs; there are probably some social advantages to be gained thereby—is taken from the sheriffs and vested in the Lord Lieutenant, and that is only increasing once more the power that is exercised far too much in Ireland, as I am sure hon. Members from North-East Ulster will admit. It applies in the South and in the North both ways, because of their religion or their politics. In the South you have men appointed because they belong to one denomination or one political party, and in the North because they belong to exactly the opposite, and that is one of the curses and banes of Irish life. Here you are vesting that matter still more greatly in the Lord Lieutenant. It means that any man who wants to be an under-sheriff in theory must satisfy the Lord Lieutenant and in practice must satisfy one of the permanent officials at Dublin Castle, who will naturally, I am afraid, only appoint a man of one particular political complexion. If for no other reason

  2585
  than that, apart from the sweated wage offered to these men in these times, I shall have to vote against the Resolution.
  Mr. SEDDON: I have never heard more contradictory speeches than those which have been delivered by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). On the last occasion he voted with his friends against a living wage. On this occasion he is opposing this Bill, because in his opinion it does not give a living wage. I hope the friends of the blind will notice the collusion that is taking place, which is pure obstruction to the third Order.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Withdraw.
  Mr. SEDDON: I am in the hands of the Chair. The hon. and gallant Gentleman intervenes more and creates more ill feeling than any other man in the House, and then when he is replied to begins to shout "Withdraw" without rhyme or reason. I think he ought to understand that other Members in the House have privileges as well as himself. I am deeply interested in the next question.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: So are we.
  Mr. SEDDON: It is deliberate obstruction, and I hope the friends of the blind will recognise the combination that is trying to prevent these unfortunate people getting justice.
  Mr. BARTLEY DENNISS: I am here to support the Blind Bill. I appeal to hon. Members not to obstruct this measure, but to let the Blind Bill come on; otherwise they may talk till five o'clock and the blind people will be neglected.
  Mr. KILEY: I am as interested in the blind as the last two hon. Members who have spoken, and they need have no anxiety about the Bill going through. They had better have waited a little longer before making the observations they have made. I rise to express my strong disappointment at the lack of information which has been forthcoming from the Minister in Charge concerning the Resolution we are now considering. One of the most important proposals before us is the question of the appointment of Under-Sheriffs. If there is any objection I have to arrangements which have arisen out of the War, it is that there
  2586
  is to much centralisation. For no reason that I can gather from the Minister in Charge, it is proposed to make some very drastic changes, and before we pass the Resolution we ought to have some real reason. There is also the question of the payment of these Under-Sheriffs. The Minister dealt with the necessity of getting responsible and reliable and the best class of men it is possible to get for these very important positions. If you look at the salaries which are given to these important and better class individuals, you will find they start at something like £150 per annum. I do not know what the Labour party have to say to that magnificent sum for a superior, well-educated, well-trained, reliable person.
  Major MORGAN: Some went into the Lobby last time in favour of a living wage.
  Mr. KILEY: Some of the hon. Member's colleagues were in the same Lobby. I was not there, but some of his Friends were in that position. I shall be interested to hear from the Minister what class of superior, well-educated persons he expects to get for a salary of £150 a year. We are entitled to further information on these points, and I shall listen with interest to what he has to say.
  2.0 P.M.
  Captain W. BENN: I should not have been anxious to examine the proposal if it had not been for the amazing speech of the hon Member (Mr. Seddon). He visits the House very rarely, and he expects the House immediately he arrives to sit to attention while he delivers his speech. I do not think since Colonel Pride came into our midst there has been anything quite like it.
  Mr. SEDDON: I have sat here as long as the hon. and gallant Gentleman—since the House started.
  Captain BENN: The hon. Member should know from his long experience that this is a Committee intended to examine financial proposals put before it. The fact that he wishes to get on to a proposition about the blind, with which we all most earnestly sympathise and intend to support—
  Mr. SEDDON: Let us get to it.
  Captain BENN: The hon. Member is impatient. I do not propose to get to

  2587
  it till we have disposed of this Resolution. What sort of right has he to insist that the moment he arrives, the Bill he is interested in should be considered, and that everyone else should be silent? I have never heard of such a thing. The sooner he habituates himself to the ordinary procedure and courtesies of the House the better it will be for the conduct of business.
  Mr. SEDDON: You are not a very good judge of courtesy.
  Captain BENN: It is not our fault that the Government has put down Money Resolutions, and then whispered round the Lobbies that it is indecent to oppose them because there is something important that is to follow. The Attorney-General does not do it, but the myrmidons do it—the minions. We are told it is not decent to discuss a financial Resolution because there is something of importance coming on. I think people outside the House will not blame us for insisting, even on a Friday afternoon, in finding out the reason for a grand total expenditure of between—10,000,000 and—20,000,000 which is proposed to-day. That is the grand total of the bill of fare presented by the Patronage Secretary.
  Mr. SEDDON: Do you object to the proposals for the blind? They are very important.
  Captain BENN: Of course, they are important, and I am in sympathy with them. We have three hours yet. Why should we not discuss other things on the Order Paper because there is a proposal of some other kind coming on later? We are here examining the proposed payment in respect to salaries and allowances of sheriffs in Ireland, and they are matters of importance on which I wish to ask questions. If they are satisfactorily answered and we can come to a decision, we can get to the next proposal. First of all, I reiterate what was said on the other Resolution, that it is not a right thing for us to legislate now and to make changes in the framework of Irish legislation if the Government is in earnest on the Irish Home Rule Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN: This question has been repeated three times, and it comes under the Rule against repetition.
  Captain BENN: I was out of the House, and I did not know that it had been mentioned before.
  The CHAIRMAN: That is all the more important. Standing Order 19 is directed against Members repeating things that have been said by themselves or other Members.
  Captain BENN: I know the Standing Order well. I was not aware that other Members had mentioned it on this Resolution. My second point is that it is proposed to transfer the appointment and the payment of these officers from the local to the central authority. They were formerly appointed by the High Sheriffs, but they are to be appointed in future by the Lord Lieutenant. We should not have to vote this money if the change was not being made. This means an increase in the central fund, and the reason we have this Resolution, I presume, is because the High Sheriffs cannot in the eyes of the Government be trusted.
  Mr. HENRY indicated dissent.
  Captain BENN: I think some of the High Sheriffs have refused to appoint under-sheriffs. This Resolution is an integral part of a new proposal to centralise the government and to destroy all vestige of local control in Ireland.
  The CHAIRMAN: That may be in the Bill, but it is not in the Resolution. This Resolution authorises only the financial part of the Bill. Any criticism of the Bill must be reserved until we come to the Bill itself.
  Captain BENN: It is very difficult for us to consider adequately the proposals of the Government when so much of them have a purely financial bearing. I am anxious to keep within your ruling. The Leader of the House, in reference to these money resolutions, gave a pledge that we should have an estimate laid before us of all the costs that would be involved, but the White Paper, Command Paper 748, dealing with this resolution does not fulfil the pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman. We should like to know what the total charge is to be. The resolution says that we are to "authorise the payment out of monies provided by Parliament of annual sums not exceeding two hundred and fifty pounds each to under-sheriffs, and of

  2589
  increased salaries not exceeding forty pounds per annum each to process servers who are also bailiffs." We cannot know what cost that involves until we know the number of the persons concerned. Has that occurred to the hon. Member for Hanley? We do not know what amount of money we are voting. I want to know how many of these people are to be appointed, in order that we may know what sum is likely to fall on the consolidated fund. Is that an unreasonable request or an obstruction? This money has been found by the municipalities in Ireland.
  Mr. HENRY: Not the whole.
  Captain BENN: Part of it. Is there any reason to suppose that they will pay it? Is it not true that 29 out of 33 local authorities have refused to acknowledge the authority of the Local Government Board? Therefore a sum of money which was previously paid by the local authorities is going to come out of the Imperial Exchequer.
  Mr. HENRY: No.
  Captain BENN: That is what the Resolution says—"out of monies provided by Parliament." What is the number of these officials, and what will be the total cost?
  The CHAIRMAN: Two of the hon. and gallant Member's colleagues have already put all these questions seriatim. The hon. Member is not fair to the Committee. I have warned him of the Standing Order as to repetition, and I must now ask him to resume his seat.
  Major MORGAN: I desire to offer a personal explanation. The Chairman has already called the attention of the hon. and gallant Member to the fact that his arguments have been repeated more than six times by—
  The CHAIRMAN: It will be wise to leave that to the Chair.
  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

  BLIND PERSONS [PENSIONS AND EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee. [Progress, 10th June.]
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question again proposed,
  "That it is expedient to make such provision out of moneys provided by Parliament as is required for paying such pensions to blind persons who have attained the age of fifty as, under the Old Age Pension Acts, 1908 to 1919, they would be entitled to receive if they had attained the age of seventy, and any expenses incurred by any Government Department and the expenses incurred by the local pensions committees up to an amount approved by the Treasury in connection therewith in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to promote the welfare of blind persons."—[Colonel Gibbs.]
  The CHAIRMAN: I am unable to entertain the two Amendments which appear on the Order Paper [To leave out the words "who have attained the age of fifty"—Mr. Stephen Walsh and Mr. Frederick Roberts; to insert the words "and any expenses incurred by the councils of counties and county boroughs"—Sir H. Harris]—both of them going beyond the authority which the Rules of Procedure lay down.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison): It will be observed that this Resolution is limited to paying the pension to blind persons of the age of 50 or over, and the conditions are set out in the Bill itself. The fact is that 50 per cent. practically of those persons are over the age of 50. The age of 50 has been chosen because we propose to deal otherwise with the difficulties and disabilities of blind persons under 50. Persons below that age are more or less trainable. We hope to assist in the provision of facilities for training in a large number of cases, involving contributions to the support of existing institutions, and we propose to pay an Exchequer grant of 50 per cent. of the outgoings of the local authorities on their schemes. Some of those who are anxious, as all of us are, to promote the welfare of blind persons may wish to see the age limit reduced, but we think that it is necessary to try to develop a system of training, education and assistance which will encourage the blind people to help themselves, and as regards blind persons under the age of 50 the provisions

  2591
  of the Bill will be just as generous as in the case of the others. All our sympathies would be in the direction of taking a lower age limit, but I think that that would not be the right policy to undertake, and we have taken the age of 50 because it seems to be about the limit of trainable age, and the age above which at least half the blind persons are included. In some respects blind persons are dealt with more generously under the training scheme than they would be under this Measure without the training. I make these observations to explain why it is we put the limit at 50, and to point out that those below that age will be dealt with under the scheme which we are otherwise providing.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I understand that I should not be in order in moving either of the Amendments on the Paper, and that the discussion must be confined to the Resolution which has been submitted. We cannot regard this as a satisfactory provision for the necessities of the blind. The Resolution makes reference to the duties of the local authorities and the provision that is to be made for them. I understand that the practice has been up to the present that grants have been made to voluntary agencies, and it is now intended by the Ministry of Health to extend these grants to the local authorities and to give them an allowance up to 50 per cent. of their net expenditure, and over and above that to make contributions of 50 per cent. on the capital outlay of the local authorities. On that last point I think that there is considerable confusion. Many of the institutions are in doubt as to whether they also will be entitled to the 50 per cent. of capital expenditure which has been laid down by the Minister of Health for the local authorities. They want to know what their financial position is to be compared with local authorities in general. They want to find out how they are going to meet it under the new structure that will be called into being by this Bill.
  It is important that the Committee should have information on these points, but I confess that to many of us on this side by far the more important part of the Resolution refers to the provision which is to be made for blind persons. The Resolution provides in a single sentence that we are going to make old
  2592
  age pensions available, and, I take it from the memorandum which has been circulated, on substantially the conditions which apply to old age pensioners at large, to blind persons at fifty years of age. No doubt other provision will be made and training, etc., will be forthcoming, but it cannot be contended by anyone who has been associated with the care of the blind, either from the point of view of the employés or the institutions which may be regarded as the employers that this provision is satisfactory. There is agreement on the part of the National League of the Blind and also on the part of managers of institutions that, no matter how far you train blind persons, in only a handful of cases are these persons able to earn what is called an economic wage, and that some form of State allowance or assistance is absolutely necessary if these persons are to maintain decent conditions of life. That is a perfectly unanswerable proposition.
  Many of us who have been associated with training schemes for the blind say that only in a limited number of cases of men of exceptional ability, courage and power have they been able to earn any kind of economic return. It is true that under this Resolution they bring in old age pensions within their reach at fifty years of age, but the contention not merely of the National League of the Blind, but also of the managers of these institutions is that that sum should be available throughout the whole range of the age of blindness for these people. If they can earn an economic wage, well and good; but we must provide for them much more generously than we have done under this Resolution. There is another point of criticism which is even more important from some points of view. The right hon. Gentleman has indicated that the majority of blind persons are over fifty years of age. I find it very difficult to reconcile the statement in the memorandum with the actual facts of blindness in this country. The memorandum says that the numbers to be covered are approximately 8,400 people, and my right hon. Friend says that about half the blind people will be covered.
  Dr. ADDISON: The point is that this deals with blind persons between the ages of fifty and seventy. Of course there is a large number of blind persons over the

  2593
  age of seventy who are already under the Old Age Pensions Act.
  Mr. GRAHAM: I am obliged for that explanation, but am bound to point out that, while to some extent it meets the case we have in mind, there are at this time approximately 35,000 blind persons in this country, and we cannot contend for a moment that their needs are adequately met by the provision we are making for this Bill. I regret that we have been precluded, by the rules of the House, from moving a definite amendment. We must keep clearly in view the fact that we are passing a Resolution which will largely govern the measure we are afterwards to discuss in Committee, and it is from that point of view mainly that I press not merely for an explanation but for some better provision for these defenceless, almost hopeless, and certainly distressed section of the community.
  Mr. SUGDEN: I agree with the last speaker, that while this represents some acknowledgment by the State of its responsibility to these people, the question remains as to what is the method by which we shall apply the principle of dealing with them. That has an important bearing on the whole problem. We have to determine whether private endeavour is still to deal with this terrible affliction, with the assistance and co-operation of the State, or whether the State is to accept the whole responsibility of dealing with the blind. Those are the alternatives we have to consider. I say that the Government will never be able to deal with the problem effectively unless we eliminate entirely the age limit in this Resolution. The hon. Member who spoke last said that the societies wanted to know where they will stand in respect of this contribution. If he will permit me to say so, I have here documentary proof that that is not altogether what the societies require. I speak with some authority on this matter. Mr. McGregor represented the Ministry of Health at a recent conference, and I should like to pay my tribute to that representative, for he has done splendid work in advising the Minister on this matter. At that conference there were also present representatives of the great institutions for the blind in such cities and towns as Darlington, Northampton, Bradford, Liverpool,
  2594
  Accrington, Tottenham, Oxford, Manchester, Birmingham, Salford, Swansea, and many other places. They were discussing how to increase the public contributions after the Bill should become law. The blind institutions of this country have done splendid work. The Minister of Health states that this scheme is to cost £220,000 in a full year. He will require not less than £400,000 were he to deal with the whole problem of the blind. I accept the statement that it is right that as youthful an age as possible should be chosen in order to give the afflicted an opportunity industrially to earn their living. Not one of them desires charity. It is on that ground that they object to the system in utilising the agency of so many institutions to-day. It will be necessary, as the conference held, for all these charitable institutions to be continued as also for soliciting contributions for same. The Bill will not eliminate any of them. Many hon. Members will, no doubt, be delighted to contribute voluntarily to these institutions in future, and we all accept the view that the governors and managers of these institutions are helpful. But I suggest that, for reasons which are obvious, they cannot give such efficient control and leadership as could be obtained if this became a State machine, properly handled and controlled under the auspices of the Minister of Health.
  I suggest that even now the age limit for pensions should be eliminated and the problem dealt with in its widest sense. Whereas, if this proposal goes through, I repeat (and apologise for thus emphasising the fact) we shall be compelled in future to contribute to the support of these institutions. I hold that there is no section of the public which would not be willing to pay in ordinary taxes for the support of the institutions and for dealing with the problem in the fullest and widest sense, providing education, elementary, secondary and university. On the commercial side there should be a protected market for the work of the blind. These things cannot be done in the best way if the matter is left, on the one hand to private institutions, and on the other to the Minister of Health, both working on one problem, the results cannot be perfect or the most useful. We feel we could trust the Minister. The blind themselves would

  2595
  accept their full responsibility under his helpful guidance and influence as representative of the State, and would prefer that arrangement to such a scheme as is now proposed.
  Mr. BARTLEY DENNISS: It would be wasting time unnecessarily if I went over the ground covered by the last speaker. His suggestions and principles coincide exactly with my own. On the Second Reading of this Bill I said that neither the Bill nor the money Resolution could be satisfactory to the blind persons in whose interest the measure has, apparently, been introduced. May I say without offence that it is trifling with the subject to treat this question of the blind by saying that you will give an old age pension at fifty years of age.
  Dr. ADDISON: There is much more in it than that.
  Mr. DENNISS: That is one of the proposals, and I repeat that I think it is trifling with the question, which should be dealt with as a State question. I do not like to oppose the Bill in order to compel the Government to bring in a Bill on the lines suggested because it might be said that I was opposing the interests of the blind which I have very warmly at heart. For the same reason, while I should like by opposition to this money Resolution to compel the Government to bring in a Bill which would be more satisfactory, yet we must support the Resolution for what it is worth. Clause 2 of the Bill says:
  "It shall be lawful for the Council of any County or County Borough to provide and maintain, or to contribute, towards the provision and maintenance of workshops, hostels, homes, or other places for the reception of blind persons."
  I suppose that this Resolution to some extent covers that proposal, but it is a proposal which will not work, and which will be absolutely in operative. The rates in the borough with which I am connected are 16s. or 17s. in the £, and is it likely that the ratepayers will pay for hostels for the blind, or is it fair that a burden of that kind should be put on the local authorities when they cannot bear it. The Bill, in my opinion, is inadequate. It approaches the subject from the wrong direction. I do not like to use strong language, but I do say it does not meet the case of the blind at all. We cannot
  2596
  make a proposal to increase the charge in a money Resolution, and in that we are at the mercy of the right hon. Gentleman. I ask him whether he cannot enlarge his scheme in some form, and, if necessary, expand it in such a way that it will really meet the needs of these people who have been waiting for many years, and with whom I am sure he sympathises. His speech on the Second Reading was admirable in tone but the Bill, I am sorry to say, was disappointing.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope that the two hon. Members who preceded me will look at this money Resolution in a different way. This Resolution is not an integral part of the Bill, and if you reject it, then, and only then, will be the Government be compelled to introduce a money Resolution more in accordance with what we wish, and more in accordance with the mind of the country. If the Bill is passed, and this Resolution, good-bye for many years, possibly ten years, to any hopes of a real Bill to help the blind.
  Mr. DENNISS: It is possible to recommit the Bill for another financial Resolution if the Bill be altered in Committee.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The only chance of getting the sort of Bill we want is to reject this money Resolution. Any Amendment contrary to the financial Resolution would be ruled out of order in Committee. This is our real opportunity of pointing out to the Government that the vast majority of people in this House and in the country believe that in dealing with the question of the blind we should deal with it on a thorough basis instead of a charity basis. I have always advocated economy, but in this case that question does not come in, because the blind people have to be kept at present. They are kept by dutiful sons or daughters or by the subscriptions of charitable Members of this House, and the people at large, and particularly the poor. What we wish is to put on the shoulders of the community a burden which is already being borne by some people in the community. It is true it is not shown in the taxes, but it is a tax, and we want to deal with the question so that the good citizen alike will contribute to this burden, which is essentially a first-charge, or, if we consider the wounded from the War, a second charge on the taxes of this country. I

  2597
  do ask my colleagues to think twice before voting for this Resolution. Our only hope to do our duty by the blind lies in doing what is apparently the wrong thing, namely, to vote against this financial Resolution. It is just the same as when you move to reduce a Minister's salary by £100 when you really want to get an increased grant for a particular service. Therefore I ask my colleagues to vote against this Resolution in order to show that the Labour party will have nothing to do with blessing a Bill which does not touch the fringe of the problem, and which does not make the blind a charge on the whole of the community. There is another feature of this proposal with which I will have nothing to do, and that is that in these pensions it perpetuates the horrible sliding scale system. A man who can prove that he has got nothing receives a pension of 10s. per week, and the man who, unfortunately for himself, has saved something gets 5s. per week. That system is so obviously wrong in principle and so horrible in practice that it leads to lying throughout the whole country, and I cannot understand why, after ten years' experience of it in old age pensions, it should be again proposed in this Bill. It leads to corruption and lying of every sort and kind, and it is fundamentally wrong to penalise thrift in this way. Because we want to get a real Bill, and because if this Resolution goes through we shall not, I shall vote against this Resolution.
  Mr. MYERS: I think we are all agreed that while the voluntary institutions in the country have done great work in making provision for the blind, the problem with which we are now confronted has outgrown the facilities of those voluntary institutions. The general desire is that the State should take over the whole of this problem. I think the first four words in Clause 2, "it shall be lawful," should be changed to "it shall be compulsory" on local authorities to do what is set out. Having regard to the fact that there is a promise of 50 per cent. of the expenditure, some provision of that kind is called for. The great objection I have to this proposal is that the pensions for those between the ages of 50 and 70 are to be at the same rate and on the same conditions as attach to old age pensions. One of the most painful duties I have had to perform in a somewhat lengthy experience of public administration has been in
  2598
  adjudicating upon reports of pensions officers in respect of the means of people who apply for old age pensions. A man may be getting 1s. a week here, or half-a-crown a week there, or a meal a day from an old lady, and all these things are tabulated, and the old age pensioner is penalised in the operation. The overwhelming experience of old age pension administration has led us to the conviction that the only qualification for an old age pension should be the test of a birth certificate, and even if there are a few instances where imposition has been tried, it will be more than counter-balanced from the point of view of saving the tremendous official expenditure involved under the present system of irritating inquiries. If the same conditions apply to the blind people, we are going to have officials going round to the homes of these people and asking who assists them, how much they have got in the bank, whether they have got a half-a-crown here, or whether in the days when they could work they did not have a trifle of money in the "Co-op.," and we are going to perpetuate these irritating conditions of inquiry and investigation.
  If we are going to give pensions to people who are blind at 50, let us give it to them at 50 without any other qualification. One's experience in public life has led one to the point of view that if we cannot always get what we like, it is as well to try and like what we can get, and therefore, so far as I am concerned, I am going to take what I can get in a Bill of this character and, like the dissatisfied individual we have heard of, go on asking for more. I agree with a previous speaker that the day has come when the community in its collective capacity should take absolute responsibility for dealing with blind people, and that we should not rely at all upon voluntary institutions. The penalty under which the blind suffer, they have not as a rule contributed to themselves. It is an infliction imposed upon them by nature, and the best the State could do, the State ought to do in this direction. So let us have no more half measures or pettifogging regulations and restrictions, but let us take the whole and complete responsibility on to our shoulders.
  Mr. R. McLAREN: Like other hon. Members who have spoken, I regret very much that 50 years has been inserted in the Resolution. For many years I have

  2599
  taken an interest in the blind people, and I am bound to say, that I think the whole community deserve great credit for the way in which they have supported the voluntary institutions in the past. At the same time, I think the time has come when the Government ought to take over these institutions and look well after the blind. I will give an instance of a case that came to my notice to show that, after all, it is the poor people who keep the blind. A friend of my own who, by an explosion in a mine, had lost an arm and his eyesight, being an independent Scotsman, thought he could carry on and keep his family going by selling tea. When the War broke out he was not permitted to sell his tea, although many of us tried hard to get the Government to relax the operations, so that this man could go on, but at last he was compelled to give up, and a few friends, including myself, for two years, had to collect as much money every week as would keep that man from starvation. There are many cases of the same kind, and I thought at the time that it was absolutely wrong that a decent man, who had paid his way until he had met with his accident, and who was willing to work for his family, should have to depend on his friends for getting the necessities of life.
  I think that in every case the blind people, who are handicapped in every walk of life, ought to have some assistance from the State in such a way that they shall have a decent living; the young people especially, who become blind through no fault of their own, ought to be looked after by the State and trained so as to be useful members of society. I think it is a great mistake that there should be grades as we have in this Memorandum. I cannot see why any decent working man who has saved some money and put it by for his old age should be penalised when he reaches 70 years and seeks an old age pension. I think he more deserves the pension than the wastrel who has spent all his means and been a burden on the community. In this particular case of the blind I think the whole grading system should go, and that every man, apart from the money he has laid past him, should be entitled to a pension. I am not prepared to go so far as some of my hon. Friends opposite and vote against this Resolution. I think half a loaf is better than no bread, and
  2600
  I am willing to take this, but I hope that before long the Government will bring in a new Bill on a better basis and take the whole responsibility for looking after the interests of blind people.
  Major BARNES: If I thought a heroic course such as throwing out the Resolution would bring about the result we desire I would follow it, but I am doubtful. To believe that if we rejected this Resolution the Minister would go back and get a larger sum would be to believe, first of all, that he had not already done all he could in this direction, and I am sure that that is not correct. I am certain that if this Bill is not what we want to see it, it is not the right hon. Gentleman's fault. He does not lack either heart or will to give what everybody wants; what he lacks really is the power. There is not the slightest chance of his getting the assent of the Government to the extension of this liability. After all, there is only one purse into which to dip. and when the right hon. Gentleman comes forward to put his hand in the bag he finds there are a good many hands in besides his own. The real trouble is the will and the sympathy on the part of the Government as a whole. They do not view this matter as the House views it. If the right hon. Gentleman could only get the Government to see this in the light of it being an investment, he might be able to get the money. After all, what better investment could there be for the moderate amount of money that would be required, than the purpose which this Bill is intended to promote? I do not know whether the Secretary for War has more persuasive powers than the right hon. Gentleman iin charge of this Bill. I think the Government as a whole value scarlet uniforms more than they value the interests of the blind. What we are up against is money difficulties. We are not up against practical difficulties. There is all the disposition in this House and country to do everything possible that can be done for the blind, and the only trouble is the money, which cannot be got, because the income of the country is being applied in directions which limit the resources of this country for purposes such as these. The right hon. Gentleman said it was desirable that blind people should be occupied, that they would be happier if they were occupied, and that it was desirable, so far as possible, that

  2601
  they should maintain themselves. We all agree that they should, so far as possible, maintain themselves, and in so doing their lives would be happier than otherwise. But when the right hon. Gentleman takes that for not meeting what he is asked, he omits the fact that people under the age of fifty who are thrown upon their resources are not helped in the way they might be helped by the Bill, because the provisions for training are permissive.
  Dr. ADDISON: I would suggest that this is quite outside the terms of the Resolution.
  Major BARNES: I am simply meeting the argument that the right hon. Gentleman himself adduced, when he was resisting the appeal made to him. I understand that argument to be that we must not go below fifty, because below fifty blind people can, to some extent, support themselves. Admitting that to be so, the Bill itself does not help them in that direction, and if the Minister were going to rely on that argument the Bill should contain an obligatory and not a permissive regulation.
  3.0 P.M.
  Captain LOSEBY: I am bitterly opposed to this Resolution as it now stands. The Minister knows that the opinion of the House on this matter was expressed fully when the Bill was discussed, and I appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend opposite to adopt the only way of showing our protest. I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite that if we carry the Bill in its present form we shall not get this Amendment for a very considerable time. I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman with regard to the sliding scale, objectionable as I believe it to be. I dislike it immensely, but for my own part I believe it must be made, and it is because the Government have introduced this sliding scale into their Bill that I think their position is so very weak. If the man is over the age of fifty he will only get his eight shillings provided he is practically destitute. That provision is there already, but are we to say we are not prepared to grant even that amount to a man under the age of fifty with the conditions as they stand here that he is blind and destitute? I know the difficulties of the Government and of the Minister of Health. I know
  2602
  full well his sympathies. I know he has gone to the Treasury and made demands which have been rejected, but we believe that by throwing out the Resolution to-day we shall strengthen his hand against the Treasury. On broader policy, I would once again like to reaffirm my conviction. The economic system under which we live stands threatened, and so long as we allow certain glaring evils to remain in our present system, and do not carry our broken men freely and willingly, those of us who would offer defence stand in a weak position. For my part, I regard the money provisions as completely inadequate, and I regard the age limit as completely unexplainable, and I shall go with the hon. and gallant Gentleman into the Lobby.
  Captain BOWYER: I should like to support what has fallen from the last speaker, and also the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I detest this grading system, and I am sorry the provisions of the Financial Resolution so greatly limit the Amendments which can be moved, or the improvements which can be worked into this Bill in Committee. I agree it is not from any lack of sympathy arising from the right hon. Gentleman's own heart, or from a lack of his endeavours that we are in this impasse to-day. What I want to know is: what answer he got from the Treasury as to the likelihood in the near or distant future of remedying this unsatisfactory state of affairs? Is the policy, so far as he knows, to continue the treatment, in promoting the welfare of blind persons, the form of this Bill for the next ten, fifteen, or twenty years, or is this only a temporary provision to last for the next three, four or five years? I regret very much that the right hon. Gentleman has not heard the speeches of the various hon. Members who have put forward these points, and also this particular point. Looking upon this matter as I do, I shall certainly support the hon. and gallant Gentleman in the Lobby; and because I am going to do that I want to give my reasons, so that it should not be said afterwards that out of any lack of sympathy for blind persons I voted against the Resolution.
  Major MORGAN: In a few words I desire to support the observations that have been made by the hon. and

  2603
  gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne in regard to the inadequate provisions contained in the Financial Resolution dealing with the welfare of the blind. Coming from the district I do, I should be failing in my duty were I not to register the disappointment that will be felt there when they find that it is only proposed to deal with, I think I am safe in saying, less than 5 per cent. of the blind in that district. I come from an industry where the men who are afflicted with blindness, if not unfortunately been born blind, are men afflicted between the ages of 35 and 45. There is no provision at present in the Workmen's Compensation Act for this blindness which comes gradually upon the men and as a matter of course, and they are not able to claim any relief as if the affliction had been brought about by accident. They are beyond the age where they can be trained for any useful occupation. Just imagine the miner who has gone underground at 14 and remained there until 40, especially in a district where there are no other industries except coal mines. He gets nystagmus at the age of 40. I should like the Minister to point out how it is possible in any shape or form to enable these men to be trained for any useful industry to enable them to obtain a living wage. That is our main objection. That is why I am going to vote against this Resolution.
  The Resolution cuts out altogether from its provisions 95 per cent. of the men who go blind in districts like ours, and who are engaged in the coal industry. I obtain that from figures that I have been well acquainted with, having been general secretary for close upon 50,000 men for over twenty years before I went to the War. The other objection is in regard to the rates and conditions that are going to be applied, as if this was going to be an old age pension. I should like to urge upon the Minister that this memorandum points out that this will entail an expenditure of £220,000. Double that if you like and make it £440,000, or put it at the highest possible, even if you make it £500,000. I say it will be in the interests of this country that we should deal generously, certainly justly, with these people who have got beyond the stage of being able to help themselves. If you want to reduce discontent and show the people that you are really out for their
  2604
  welfare, the way to do it is to spend money less extragantly than some Ministers are doing, and spend, if need be, the £500,000, or more, in getting this question put right, and giving these poor folk some hope of happiness in the future.
  Brigadier-General SURTEES: Believing as I do in the absolutely inadequate provision put forward, I desire entirely to associate myself with the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne, and I trust that my reason for doing so will not be misunderstood in the constituency which I represent.
  Mr. LAWSON: When the Government took over this Bill of the Labour party I was hopeful that we were going to do a great deal for the people concerned in this financial Resolution. When the Government decided to grant these people of 50 years 10s. per week that somwehat modified our desire, yet we were hopeful of better things. I may say that I am amazed at the fact that in this financial resolution the Government are perpetuating the bad old system that operates under the Old Age Pension Acts. I have been in the unfortunate position of sitting in the Chair of an Old Age Pensions Committee for some years. That in itself is sufficiently humiliating when you have got the old people to deal with, and it will be a very, very painful duty indeed laid upon the Chairman of a committee when the committees have to deal with blind persons under the same conditions as those under which he had to deal with the old people before. I wonder if the Government really understands what the situation is under the administration of the Old Age Pension Acts? You will have an old woman coming before the committee who has no income, or perhaps very little. Instead of awarding her 10s. she is awarded perhaps 2s. or 3s., and it is difficult to make out why this should be—at least so the old folk think—in view of the fact that she has apparently very little to work upon. The Old Age Pensions Officer makes inquiry. He finds, perhaps, that the old lady is living with some relations, and is not paying anything for her support. The officer at once says that seeing she is being kept by relatives—out of the kindness of their hearts, mark—the award must be cut down accordingly, the calculated cost of the keep of the old lady being put down as income.

  2605
  If the blind people happen to be living with relatives under the rules laid down by the Local Government Board, the officer will be compelled to assess the amount of their income at 8s. or 10s. per week, as the case may be, and this because of the kindness of their friends. I remember one of the most painful and yet one of the most humorous incidents during my chairmanship of that Board. An old woman came before us and said that she was puzzled why the Pensions officer should say that she had 8s. per week. She said that she had "nowt." This says that these pensions shall be granted at the same rates and under the same conditions as old age pensions. I say, frankly, that unless the Government are going to give these people this 10s. per week without enquiry this thing is not worth the paper upon which it is written. The Committee to which I have referred is blamed for being too sympathetic, because it is made up mostly of working people. I do not know what is done on some of the other committees. They may be as good or even better, but I have a suspicion that there are committees which are worse. It is unfair that people who are blind should have to present themselves before the Committee and lay bare all their private circumstances. The same ought to apply to them as applies to all other pensions. When a Civil servant gets his pension no one inquires what is his income or what are his private circumstances. I may be wrong, but I understand that if a minister retires and claims his pension—apart from the fact that he may say that he is destitute and everybody believes it—there is no prying into his private affairs. I say emphatically that this House will be fully justified in voting against this financial provision because of the indignity which it inflicts upon blind people. We did hope that this pension, little as it is, would have been granted without conditions, and that these people would have been able to live in decency and thus be relieved of the necessity of going into the streets to beg to the shame of us all. I trust that the Government will see their way to withdraw this financial provision with a view of giving these people the 10s. per week, little as it is, without any enquiry into their private affairs.
  Major MOLSON: I am very sorry that the House has taken up the attitude that
  2606
  that it has in this matter, and I would earnestly ask hon. Members to reconsider their position. I consider that they are going in for very bad tactics. I do not think that we ought to throw out a Bill which brings benefit to many blind people in the country. I understand from hon. Members who have spoken that they are going to vote against this Bill.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The Money Resolution.
  Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: That is the same thing.
  Major MOLSON: Perhaps, Sir, you will kindly make clear to these hon. Members that if they throw out the Money Resolution, it means the defeat of the Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN: That is so. The Bill cannot proceed without the Money Resolution.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Would it not be possible for the Government to introduce another Money Resolution for the same Bill?
  The CHAIRMAN: Certainly, if a fresh Committee were set up.
  Mr. LAWSON: My point has been made quite clear. I laid stress upon the question that I put to the Government, urging them to withdraw this Resolution, and bring in another.
  Major MOLSON: I think that my point has been made clear by your answer, Sir. If these extremists throw out this Bill, they will do a great deal of harm to many blind people in the country. They will be taking on their own shoulders the responsibility of refusing the benefits which this Bill will give. I am not for one moment saying that these people should not get greater benefits, but half a loaf is better than no bread. It would be very unwise and unkind for this House to throw out this Bill which, however inadequate it may be, is meant for the benefit of the blind of the country. We do not know what the reasons of the Ministry may be. They may not have been able to obtain better terms. It would be far better to accept this Bill and then agitate for improved conditions. I would therefore urge fair-minded Members not to be carried away and to refuse these benefits for these poor people by the oratory of certain extremists.
  Mr. SEDDON: I do not think that I have ever listened to more humiliating proposals than those embodied in this Memorandum. It is admitted by everyone that blindness is the greatest affliction that can overtake any human being. The blind for years and years have been merely the object of private charity, and, while I say nothing against those who have contributed to such charitable institutions, it has been totally inadequate, and in addition to the darkness which their affliction brings, the blind have had to endure the misery of penury and want. This has been a disgrace to our civilisation let alone our Christianity and the chivalry of our race. There can be no party division on a question like this. It is not a party question at all. It is a question where men and women, recognising a grievous wrong, can with goodwill come together and by their association force a recalcitrant Treasury to do justice to a long-suffering class. The last speaker seemed to infer that if these Resolutions are defeated the responsibility will be upon those who are against the miserable proposals contained in the Memorandum. It might be a serious thing for some, but speaking for myself, I would rather incur that danger than do this thing in this way, and inflict a greater wrong upon a large number of blind people in this country. After all, the discussions in this House, and the expressions of sympathy and sentiment with these people on the Second Reading have raised the hopes of 35,000 of these people from one end of the country to the other. It has been a glimmer of hope in their darkness, that at last the country was going to recognise the most hopeless section of the community. I have spoken with those unfortunate people who are compelled to eke out a miserable existence standing on the pavement asking for charity or selling some small wares, and I was struck and pleased to find that the mere hope that Parliament was going to relieve them from their present condition, had given them more joy in life than they had ever had before.
  What is the figure we are dealing with? If we gave £1 a week to every one of these people, it would form but a mere moiety of the expenditure of this country, and it would be money well spent. Here we have a proposal limited to £220,000 upon a graduated scale. I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last but one,
  2608
  that in the administration of a Pensions Act, there is nothing more humiliating or heartbreaking to these people, than to have to go through a form of inquisition. I have been associated indirectly with our poor law system from my youth upwards, and it was always a charge against that system that even men with good hearts had to administer a cast-iron system. We have here a chance of redeeming the past, and of doing justice to this long-suffering body of people. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill. We were asked yesterday to vote £1,500,000 for a new Government Department. Surely, if we can vote this money so readily for huge salaries, the least we can do is to say to these unfortunate people, "Whatever burden it throws upon our shoulders, we will see that justice is done to you, and you shall have some of the joys of life, so far as creature comforts will secure them." I deplore the Government's parsimony in this matter, and I feel that it will create a feeling amongst the blind of despair, and any man who, by his vote, adds to their misery, is not only neglecting his duty, but he is aggravating a wrong that exists at the present time.
  Major MACKENZIE WOOD: I do not intend to deal with the merits or demerits of this scheme, because I think the Members of the Committee are fairly well agreed that the proposals in the Government scheme are not satisfactory. I wish to state to the Committee how I feel on this question, and how I am going to be guided in recording my vote this afternoon. I have here a number of resolutions which have been sent to me by the Scottish National Federation of Institutions and Societies for the Blind. I agree with them in every way. I am not going to read them or explain them, except to say that I do attach a great deal of importance to one particular resolution which they have put forward, which is to the effect that under the Government scheme the interests of blind persons in scattered areas cannot possibly be properly looked after. It is easy enough to deal under the Government scheme with blind persons in a city, where you have a few hundred cases which may be looked after by the council or the local authority.
  In such cases you may get a real attempt by the council or the local authority

  2609
  to deal with them, but you will never get a council or a local authority to set themselves to deal in any proper manner with two or three blind persons in a scattered area. Therefore, it seems to me that to deal with these people you must have something like a centralised board, dealing with all the blind people in the country in a standard way, and dealing with them in a way in which they can never be dealt with under this scheme. I have to consider what I can do to give effect to the recommendations of this society, and I find that I am prevented by this Financial Resolution. This is the last opportunity hon. Members will have to express their opinion of this scheme, short of rejecting the Bill altogether. Therefore, it seems to me the Committee ought to use this last opportunity to vote against this Resolution. Like others who have spoken, I wish to guard myself against my action being interpreted as being a vote against this Bill, in the sense that I think it would leave the position very much better than the present one. I think this proposal is an improvement upon the present position, but it is much less than is necessary, and if we let this proposal through, we shall get no scheme of any kind for many years to come. Therefore I intend to vote against this Resolution.
  Dr. MURRAY: In view of the general expression of opinion from all quarters of the House, I hope the Government will withdraw this Resolution, and bring in another which will deal with this question not in a niggardly, but in a true British fashion. The money provided in this Resolution is not sufficient to meet the necessities of the case. It is a question whether we can keep the blind people in comfort who are on the very edge of starvation? I believe it is the determination of the country to deal generously with those who are unfortunate enough to have lost their sight either before or after the War. They are the most pathetic section of our population. I do not see why they should be compared with old-age pensioners at all. A great majority of old-age pensioners can take care of themselves, and a blind person needs far more expense in managing his life than the average old-age pensioner. A blind person has to have somebody to attend upon him both in his home and out of it, and he is a very much more expensive person than the average old-age pensioner. Therefore, in
  2610
  order to provide them with a fair proportion of the good things of this life, they require much more money than is necessary to keep the average old-age pensioner in reasonable comfort. That is a point of view which the Government, or the Treasury, or the Ministry of Health appear to have neglected. They do not realise that the blind person needs more money than the average old-age pensioner. Many hon. Members, no doubt, are prepared with Amendments to the Bill which would involve extra expense, but it will be impossible to get them accepted under this Resolution. We must, therefore, have the Resolution altered at this stage, and I hope the Government will realise the position and withdraw the present motion. There is one other point I should like to emphasise. Some of us might be inclined to suggest Amendments which would give the Minister some elastic powers in regard to the grant. In certain of the poorer localities it might be necessary to allow a grant of more than 50 per cent. of cost, but it will be impossible to bring in any Amendment of that sort under this Resolution. I am afraid there will be many localities in which no provision whatever will be made, because it will be felt they cannot afford the expense, and in these cases the Government ought, in the interests of the blind, to take power to grant a bigger proportion of the cost, provided certain conditions are complied with by the local authorities. On these grounds, first that the blind person is not to be compared with the old-age pensioner—
  Mr. SEDDON: I made no comparison between the blind and the old-age pensioner, except so far as it affected the machinery which is going to be set up by this Resolution. I admit there is no comparison between the two.
  Dr. MURRAY: I understand the Government to put them on exactly the same platform in regard to the cost of upkeep, and my contention is that the blind person requires more money than the average old-age pensioner. I, therefore, hope this Resolution will be withdrawn and brought in again in an amended form.
  Mr. J. TAYLOR: I wish to associate myself with those who have protested against the proposal embodied in this Resolution, and particularly with the hon.

  2611
  Members who have spoken with experience of administration of old age pensions. Those who have been intimately connected with administration of the old age pensions scheme must come to the conclusion that income limitations should be swept away, and that all pensioners when they reach the age of 70—or, as in this Bill, the age of 50—should get the full pension granted, irrespective of their incomes. In my experience I have found that the inquiries in connection with the fixing of incomes have been made often by young office boys, or by women, who, in a most injudicious manner, have questioned applicants as to their incomes, with the result that often the true income is not returned, because gifts from friends and relations are brought in and put down as income, thereby reducing the amount granted as old age pension. There is one particular point I would like to mention. I always thought it a very unjust thing that if an applicant for an old age pension had £100 in the Post Office Savings Bank, which pays only 2½ per cent. interest, he is credited with 5 per cent. as part of his income, on the ground that, if he chose, he could get 5 per cent. on the money. I am sorry to find that in this Bill it is proposed to adopt the same machinery as under the old age pension schemes, because everyone who has had to do with the administration of those schemes condemns that machinery. It is all very well for Members on the Treasury Bench to propose Acts of Parliament which they may never have to administer. Many of us, who have had actual experience, know the difficulties, and I think the Minister in charge of this Bill should take advantage of our experience in this matter, and should alter his proposal. I suggest he should do away altogether with the qualifications, and give a pension to the blind at the age of 50, irrespective of their income. All the speeches this afternoon against this financial Resolution have come from friends of the blind. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are all friends of the blind."] Quite so, but those who have spoken to-day against the Resolution are those who met the deputation from the blind upstairs, and many of us have come under an obligation to do our best for them. I do not think we shall be doing our best if we allow this resolution to pass in its present form without protest.
  Mr. KILEY: I desire to associate myself with the views expressed, with, perhaps, one exception, by hon. Members representing every section of this Committee, appealing to the Government to reconsider these financial proposals which have been laid before us. What would be involved if the Government reconsidered this? We are told that the total blind population of this country number some 34,000 odd. Let us suppose that we did sweep away this grading which bas been so bitterly complained of, and granted the full amount of 10s. per week to every blind person who is likely to need it. We must realise that a large proportion of those 34,000 people will not claim or need assistance from the State, and that a certain number of them are already in Poor Law or other institutions, where they must remain. I think I should be safe in assuming that not more than, say, 20,000 of the 34,000 would be likely to avail themselves of this pension, even if it were granted. If that assumption is correct, it would mean that £500,000 per annum would be the total liability which the Treasury would be called upon to face. They are already prepared to go up to £220,000. In view of the practically unanimous desire expressed by speakers this afternoon, I appeal to the Minister in charge of the Bill to ask permission to withdraw his proposal, to consult the Government, and to bring fresh proposals before us at an early date. There is no difference of opinion. We are anxious for some action, and we are prepared, as has been already said, to take what I can only describe as this miserable proposal rather than nothing at all. We venture, however, to appeal to the Minister in charge of the Bill not to press the matter, but to take it back and consult the Treasury, and, when it comes forward again, he can be assured of sympathetic attention from the Members of this Committee.
  Mr. GEORGE BARNES: I do not agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down, in his description of the proposal in this Bill as "miserable." We are not now dealing with the most important part of the Bill. That, as it seems to me, is the part dealing with the training of blind persons, and the provision for their maintaining themselves.
  Dr. MURRAY: We could not discuss that now.
  Mr. BARNES: Quite so. We are dealing only with the resolution which has to do with the provision of money for the payment of a pension. I have sat here during the last hour with feelings of great satisfaction. My mind went back to some twelve years ago, when I was putting forward the same ideas which have been expressed by at least a dozen speakers this afternoon, on the introduction of the Old Age Pensions Bill. I met that with the plea that we should really do the thing handsomely, that we should have no pettifogging inquiry as to a man's means, but should deal with pensioners on the same lines on which we now deal with elementary education. We regard elementary education as a public matter, and take the money for it out of public funds, making no inquiry as to the means of the parents. I have always pleaded that the same principle ought to be applied in regard to old age pensions. Looking at it to-day from a practical point of view, we find that this grading introduces a very obvious injustice. Take the case of a trade unionist who, during a life of labour, has contributed to his trade union week by week, and, at the age of sixty or sixty-five, becomes entitled to a pension of 10s. a week, or whatever it may be—sometimes it is a little more, sometimes a little less. Having paid for that, during his forty years' membership of his trade union, he becomes possessed of an income of some 10s. a week, and is thereby deprived of the right to his old age pension, although during his life of labour, he has contributed his quota to the funds from which the old age pensions are taken for other persons. That is obviously unjust, and therefore I am against grading, both on general principles and on the ground of the injustice it does to the man who has really been thrifty and has saved something. I rejoice to find that, whereas ten or twelve years ago, I was a voice crying in the wilderness, with a very few other hon. Friends, now we have the almost unanimous wish of the House, expressed, not merely from the Labour benches, but from every quarter. I rose for the purpose of adding my humble voice to those which have been already raised in an earnest appeal to the Government to reconsider this matter. I realise that those who may vote against this Resolution are taking a heavy responsibility. It is set out in the Bill that it becomes opera-
  2614
  tive on the fourth day of June, and everyone must realise the fact that, if this Resolution be defeated to-day, in all probability, having regard to the exigencies of parliamentary time, we shall not get another day—certainly not this year, and in all probability not next year. Having regard to the almost unanimous expression of opinion from all quarters of the House, I would appeal most earnestly to my friends on the Front Bench to reconsider this matter, and not to put us in the position of voting against this Resolution.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Baldwin): I much regret that the Minister in charge of this Bill is not here this afternoon. The conduct of this Bill is no part of my duty, but, in the very peculiar circumstances, and as the Debate is running on the Financial Resolution—for which, of course, I am jointly responsible—I think that at this juncture I ought, perhaps, to say a few words. The Committee will recollect what the genesis of this Bill was. It was a private Bill which was taken over by the Government, and they are prepared to do their best to bring it into law. The amount allocated for the services under this Bill, although there has been a general disposition to criticise it as niggardly and mean, was arrived at after a good deal of discussion between the Minister of Health and my own Department, and having regard to the obligations on the Exchequer at present, and to those that may arise, we felt that it war the most that we were at the time prepared to agree to. Hon. Members of this Committee know that it is in accordance with the desire of the House that the Financial Resolutions in connection with Bills in which finance plays a part, should, to-day, be drawn with such strictness that they cannot be upset, as they might be—I am not alluding to this case in particular—by some chance vote either here or in Committee. The drawing of Financial Resolutions, as has been done lately by the Treasury, has been done solely with the view of trying to get as much control as we can over expenditure. With that object I am quite aware that all sides of the Committee are in full sympathy. The position that we are in therefore to-day, is really a very simple one. I can hold out no hope, that if a Motion were carried to report progress, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see his way—I do not see how he can in the present state of the

  2615
  finances of which he has charge—to sanction any increase in this amount, and it would be trifling with the Committee if I were to hold out the slightest hope that this would be done. Though I have every sympathy with the object of the Bill and with the motive that moved hon. Members who desire to make this increase, I would ask them to reflect on the grave difficulty in which we on this Bench are so often put by most natural conduct of this kind, because it is a very difficult thing to resist the pressure of the House. We do not like doing it, but we feel that it has to be done, and it is rather discouraging sometimes when we have been doing our best to curb expenditure, if the Committee rises and with one voice says, "this or that is something quite exceptional and is such a good cause that it must appeal to everyone and money must be found, and it does not matter whether it is easy for you to find it or not." I think, therefore, the only course for the Committee is to come to a decision this afternoon, and the decision is a very simple one. It is whether they will take this Resolution as it is, and will frame a Bill upon it, or whether they think that the offer in the Bill is one which really is not worth having.
  Mr. SUGDEN: Has the hon. Gentleman exact knowledge of what the proposals which we are proffering to him would cost the State?
  4.0 P.M.
  Captain W. BENN: I was going to raise that very point. I think we are in some difficulty, because I am very 10th indeed to vote against the Resolution. It is a very serious matter. This is the first Government that has ever brought forward any proposal to assist the blind, and I acknowledge the sympathetic way in which the Minister has always dealt with these subjects, but the trouble is that there is something very degrading about the inquisition into the means. There are great difficulties about the limitations which have been imposed. I have some points given me by a very old friend, Sir Arthur Pearson, with whom I worked at one time in assisting the blind, and his points about the Resolution were these. One is that unless you assist local authorities the permission will never be taken advantage of. That will mean, of course, an increase in the amount of the grant. The second point is that lots of people
  2616
  who are under fifty cannot earn a living and cannot be trained, and the third point is that the amount given, in view of the exceptional expenses that blind people are being put to in being cared for, is inadequate. I am very loath to do anything which might have the result of postponing the Bill. I make two proposals. The first is this. Is it not possible for the Government to let us know, by circulating a Paper on Monday or Tuesday, exactly what will be the cost of doing away with the income test and exactly what would be the cost of other requests which have been made. That would be a White Paper. Then we should know exactly where we were and what we were really proposing. As regards the question of time, so far as I am concerned, and I think I might give a pledge for hon. Members who are associated with me, we should be quite willing to let the Money Resolution go through after 11 o'clock if it was satisfactory. That would not in the least delay the Finance Bill. I make these proposals bonâ fide because I am very anxious not to be forced into the Lobby against the Resolution. I suggest that the Government should report progress or withdraw the Resolution, let us know the cost of the proposals and then, if it is necessary to put them through at some time after opposed business cannot be taken, they will certainly have the hearty co-operation of myself and those whom I can persuade to act with me.
  Colonel LAMBERT WARD: I congratulate the Treasury representatives on the courage they have had in laying before the Committee the effect which this Amendment will have upon the finances of the country. I have not had a long experience of the House, but this is the first occasion I can remember on which representatives of the Treasury have had the courage to oppose any suggestion to the aid of which sentiment could be brought. I remember a short time ago, after the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a most moving appeal to the House not in any circumstances to make demands for further expenditure, and promising that he would do his best also to oppose them, a demand for further expenditure came up. Not only was it not opposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but neither he nor any representative of the Treasury laid before us the effect it would have on the financial position of the

  2617
  country. It has been said that the total cost of giving adequate pensions to all the blind in this country will only be some £500,000. It is not so long ago since Members of the Government assured the country that the cost of old age pensions would, at the most, be £6,000,000 per annum. It is at this moment something between £24,000,000 and £30,000,000. I do not object to it, but with the present finances of the country it is a very serious strain. I know that not only the blind, but the old age pensioners deserve everything they get and more, but it is impossible to, give everyone in this country everything he deserves. Out of the 45,000,000 people in this country at least 40,000,000 deserve more pay, more leisure, more pleasure and more comfort, but the country cannot give it to them. It is an economic impossibility. Therefore I congratulate the representatives of the Treasury on the courage they have had, not so much in opposing this Amendment as in telling us what the position is and the reasons they have for being unable to accede to it.
  Major ENTWISTLE: I am rather surprised at the speech we have just heard. If I had heard my hon. Friend's voice raised against expenditure in Mesopotamia—
  Colonel L. WARD: I rose several times during that Debate, but was not called, otherwise my colleague would have heard my voice raised in protest against that expenditure.
  Major ENTWISTLE: I am very glad to have elicited that, and I apologise very much, but I thought as my hon. Friend was supporting the Government he would probably have voted with them on that, although I know very well that he voted against scarlet uniforms. That remark applies to the Government, and the speech we have had from the Financial Secretary. He says the Government cannot afford this money. There are a good many other things we cannot afford, but money has been spent. I need not, for instance, go into the expenditure on Russia, where money could have been saved. I object to this Resolution for two reasons, because I believe a pension of 10s. is inadequate and because the age at which the pension starts is too high. The Resolution cannot be left as it is without a proviso that if a blind person under the age of 50 is incapable
  2618
  of earning a living that person shall receive a pension. If such a proviso were inserted my attitude would be very different. Many people go blind between the age of 40 and 45, when, obviously, training is impossible, and they will be unable to earn their living and will be dependent entirely upon charity. We cannot leave the Resolution as it is.
  It has been said that we had better take half a loaf, because it is better than no bread, and that we ought to vote for this Resolution, because there is a danger of losing everything. If the hon. Member for Gainsborough were in business and he was going to advise someone who was about to engage in a business transaction, would he advise them to accept every offer they received, without question? If so, he would not make a very profitable business man. If we pass this Resolution as it stands no better provision will be made for the blind for a number of years, possibly for a generation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Hon. Members are entitled to their own opinion. We have had ample experience of that sort of thing. We know that the Government will be short of money for a great many years to come. There will be heavy taxation, and it will always be difficult to make the revenue balance the expenditure. I am quite certain that if this Resolution is passed no further provision will be made probably for a generation. If we fail to pass this Resolution, or if we induce the Government to withdraw it, which is the attitude they ought to take, what is going to happen? Can anybody suggest that after the expressions of opinion in this House the Government can refuse to do anything for the blind? That is incredible. It is said that there might not be time to do it this Session. The hon. Member (Captain Benn) has said that every facility will be given for passing the financial Resolution after 11 o'clock, without opposition. If the House is of opinion that ample and better provision should be made, and if the Government have the courage of their convictions, I am certain the result will be not that the blind will suffer but that they will gain.
  Sir H. CRAIK: I by no means share the pessimistic view taken by the hon. Member (Major Entwistle) as to the prospects if this Resolution be passed. I would urge, as I have done before, that every-

  2619
  thing possible should be done, and that we have not yet done anything like our duty towards the blind. I have the very greatest sympathy with the general trend of the discussion to-day. I urge this point, which has hardly been urged enough, that with regard to the blind you have a natural definition fixed by nature, which itself marks the confines of your expenditure. But I do think that, as a general question with regard to those who are thus afflicted, we ought to perform our duty up to the very point of those confines marked by nature. Therefore my sympathies are entirely with those who wish that this Resolution had been rather wider. But we are bound to take the matter into businesslike consideration. If we overthrow this Resolution, and as the hon. Member says, we do not think that half a loaf is better than no bread, we know perfectly well what will be the result. I think it is better to take the Bill as it stands and then make it a stepping stone to get something further in a future Session. Look at what this Bill really does. In the main, the points of the Bill are the training, help and assistance that are given to the blind.
  Mr. SUGDEN: I suggest that all those things depend upon the amount of money which is going to be given, and I would refer to the fact that this Financial Resolution also deals with the principle whether you are going to have voluntary aid to the institutions as well.
  Sir H. CRAIK: The Financial Resolution covers solely and simply the question of pensions. The main expense of this Bill is thrown upon the local authorities. My right hon. Friend on the Treasury Bench knows as well as I do that an increase in the expenditure of the local authority almost necessarily gives them a claim for considerably larger grants from the Treasury. That is a logical sequence. But the Financial Resolution relates solely to one thing—that is the conditions on which pensions are to be granted. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) said that his alone had been a voice crying in the wilderness when the Pensions Bill was under consideration in objecting to the severe conditions. I think that if he will look back at the Debates he will find that I was one of those who insisted that pensions would be
  2620
  much better universally given and not subject to conditions. I have always held that opinion, and I hold it ten times as strongly with regard to the blind. In the case of the blind these conditions, investigations and unpleasant inquiries are almost repulsive. We are doing under this Bill a great deal, and as one incidental part, we are making a considerable change in regard to pensions. We are reducing the age for the blind from 70 to 50. That is going a considerable step forward. Would it not be a very serious thing if in a Bill of this sort—I ask hon. Members to consider this from the point of view of principle—which is to deal with the blind, we touch on a fundamental point of principle with regard to old age pensions all round and abolish the whole question of inquiries and investigations? It would be a very serious thing for us to alter fundamentally the whole principle upon which Parliament has decided that pensions should be based. I would have been glad had the Government been bold enough to make a step forward and remove these investigations in the case of the blind, but I do strongly sympathise with their attitude in saying that in the Bill they do a great deal with regard to pensions, in taking 20 years off the age, and that they are not prepared at one fell swoop to give pensions to all the blind over the age of 50, whatever their needs or however unnecessary those pensions may be. I suggest that we are getting a good deal now. We should be far wiser to take it for what it is rather than delay it. After we have passed the Bill we shall be in a better and stronger position to agitate and to do more for our afflicted brothers and sisters.
  Lieut.-Colonel J. WARD: I think it was 28 years ago that the Trades Union Congress first dealt with this question. That Congress was held at Newcastle in 1892, and a resolution was passed declaring that the business of protecting the interests of the blind was the duty of the State. For 28 years, I believe, that resolution has been passed regularly at the annual Congress. The demand has not ceased, and the necessity is still with us. Having supported that resolution at every Congress I attended, I should think twice before I did anything in the Division Lobby to prevent the first step being taken in the direction demanded for so

  2621
  many years. I am sure there is not a Member of this House who does not regret the attitude of the Government on this question. When we remember the millions that are squandered on other less desirable and less necessary objects, and then the parsimony with which the Government deal with a subject of such great national importance as this, we must admit that it is an outrage to the House. If one could take a ballot even of the Press—of the Press which is attacking the Government to-day for the way in which they are spending money, an expenditure which is necessitated mostly by the policy those newspapers advocated a few years ago—I do not think that one voice would be raised against doubling or trebling the amount in this Resolution. I am certain that if a ballot of the whole country were taken there would not be a dozen votes given against trebling the amount. Is it not surprising that in regard to a subject on which, probably, the whole nation would be unanimous in voting the money, that subject has been chosen by the Government for making a stand for economy? It is the failure of the Government in appreciating what to spend money on and where not to spend it that causes a great deal of the unrest and agitation in the country to-day. I regret as much as anyone the attitude adopted by the Front Bench on this proposition. I differ from the suggestion of hon. Members, and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), whose advice I would take on almost any labour problem, because I fear we would be doing injury to the people who for years I know he has done his best to protect. I can quite quite see, if this Resolution were defeated to-day, it would be an excuse for the Government to do nothing for the rest of this Session, or perhaps, I may say, it might be used as an excuse. Again, there may be some great political or personal question coming up during the next Session, by which State assistance to some 35,000 of our unfortunate fellow-citizens will be obliterated, blurred and lost in the discussion that may ensue. Indeed, as was suggested by one hon. Member, that may go on for several years before we get this subject tackled again. There is not a man here but is disgusted at the attitude of the Front Bench on this question, but at the same time I cannot take upon myself to resist in the Division Lobby the possi-
  2622
  bility of the first step along a road which the State ought to have taken many years ago.
  Mr. MOLES: My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel L. Ward) congratulated the Treasury upon the courage which they had displayed in coming down to largely emasculate this Bill. I join in no such congratulations. I admit the courage and I reprobate it, and I think courage was never shown in a worse cause. I wish we could have seen equal courage upon occasions where courage of the same kind was much more demanded. I wish we had seen a little more of humanity now and less of such courage. We are told if we accept the proposals now before the House that that will close the question practically for all time. I cannot agree with that view. The same argument was advanced on the Old Age Pensions Bill when it was first before the House, but a very short period elapsed before it became perfectly clear that the Bill would require drastic improvement and it received that. I am perfectly sure if the same course were taken in respect of this particular Bill the same thing would happen. Are we to refuse to accept the benefit of these proposals for some of the blind, because we cannot get all that we desire for all the blind. I speak with intimate knowledge as to these particular organisations, and I am sure if you put this proposal to the blind people and say that because we cannot get all we are asking for we will not allow those who are to benefit to receive that benefit that such an attitude would be unanimously condemned. It is a grave responsibility for this Committee to contemplate taking a step which will deprive those helpless and suffering beings of a proposal which at one stroke proposes to lower the pension age in their case from 70 years to 50 years. Upon what ground will you deny them that measure of relief? You cannot justify it upon the ground that it does not go all the way you want, but there is good ground, on the other hand, for taking this and telling the Treasury, as we do tell them, that this by no means closes the controversy, that it is rather the opening of a fresh and more intense chapter of it, and that we are resolved, if not now, then at the earliest possible opportunity, to see this thing through. I agree that we are bound to do all we can for the blind, and the most we can do for the most suffering class in this community is not too much.

  2623
  I deeply and bitterly resent the kind of court of inquisition that is to be held into the circumstances of all these blind people. I do not think it is a proper line of conduct to take at all, but much as I regret it, I feel that the indignity of it is tempered by the measure of alleviation which it will bring. I hope the Committee will not permit this Resolution to be talked out and that they will take it to a Division.
  Mr. SWAN: I, like my colleagues on these Benches and other hon. Members, want to express my regret that this question is being dealt with in such a parsimonious manner. We have no right to economise at the expense of the blind. It was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that this was the beginning of a great and human reform, and he referred to the Old Age Pensions Act, but the age limit which was fixed in that Act met the resentment of the whole community 12 years ago, and the Government have not yet seen their way clear to carry out the human requirement as far as the age is concerned. Here the same policy is to be continued in regard to the blind, who are to be subjected to humiliation and indignities in the way of enquiries. We believe there is abundance of wealth that can be obtained for the country willingly, without raising any protest on the ground of economy, in order to give an adequate allowance to the blind. The Government's proposal is most niggardly, for the blind will still have to be assisted, and a huge liability will still be left on the local authorities. I have a letter from a local authority, requesting that we make some effort to release them from the liabilities imposed upon them. Here we get the Government, with its pledges, bringing in a measure that will still leave a large section of the blind destitute, and subject to dependence upon their friends.
  I know from experience of my blind friends how they feel. A person at 30 is equally as dependent as a person at 50, and I hope the Government is not going to be so callous as to let this go through without reconsideration. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury suggests that all these things add to the national cost when we are appealed to by the country to effect economies. We could have effected economies in the Estimates, if need be. We have a huge list of half-pay officers getting three times the
  2624
  amount that is going to be given to the blind. I hope the hon. Gentleman opposite will take a bold step, so that all the blind persons will be assured, without the assistance of their friends, of being able to end their days in peace and comfort. I have a friend, a blind person, 40 years of age, who is destitute. Her parents made sacrifices to get her educated, and, realising her responsibilities, she pored over the books that she might get through her examinations, with the result that she went blind. Now she finds that she has got to be dependant, which is the most humiliating thing to her, on her brothers and sisters for maintenance. She has asked me, seeing that her brothers and sisters have family financial responsibilities, whether she should go to the workhouse. The woman has sensibility, but she is going to be left out of this Bill. I hope we shall not continue to be subject to the jeers, ridicule and contempt which we receive for our parsimonious treatment of the blind, while we can spend huge sums in Mesopotamia, in Russia, and in Ireland.
  Mr. LANE-MITCHELL: Hear, hear!
  Mr. SWAN: I cannot understand that interjection, because we are squandering millions of money which will bring no advantage to our own people, while we have a starving blind population for whom we can only find £220,000. To my mind my hon. Friend could respond to a more noble sentiment than that evidenced by his "Hear, hear."
  Viscountess ASTOR: We have had many eloquent speeches made on this Resolution, but I do not join some of my hon. Friends about Russia, Mesopotamia, and so on, for I do not quite agree with them on these subjects. It may be for the welfare of the country, and, indeed, for civilisation, that we should spend money both in Mesopotamia and Russia. I do, however, beg the Government to withdraw from a most disappointing position. The hon. Gentleman, the Member for Glasgow, dealt with one of the most important points of this subject; this only deals with pensions. What we who are interested in the blind have hoped to see was a Bill brought in dealing with their training and education. Pensions are very important, but training and education seem to me to be only

  2625
  giving the blind people Justice. An hon. Gentleman said that you could not give everybody in the world all they deserve. I agree. None of us ever get what we think we deserve. We must go through life disappointed in some things. But we can at least give the blind people justice. It is for 6s. that we are appealing to-day.
  Another point is that the care of these blind people generally comes on the very poorest of the community—some hon. Members would say the weakest part of the community—that is the women. But, after all, it is the women in the home who always have to look after the blind. It is for them I am pleading. If we pass this Resolution it affects only 8,400 blind people out of over 35,000. It in no way deals with training and education, and fitting of these folk, not for charity—a word I hate, especially in this connection—but to earn their own livelihood. That is where I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow, Mr. G. Barnes, that it is very important that the Government should bring in a Bill which does not leave this matter permissible to the local authorities. After all, the Government know pretty well by housing that if you leave things entirely to the local authorities very often you get let down. We really do not want the blind left to the local authorities when it comes to the matter of training and education. We who are very keen about the matter will be glad to see the Resolution made different. I think it will be awfully unfair on the part of the Government to pass this Measure, because it puts us in an awkward position. We do not want to turn down this Resolution. It is true it is half a loaf. It may be said that better half a loaf than no bread. I am not at all certain, though, that if we do vote against the Government we shall not possibly get something better. There is no doubt there is throughout the country a great feeling for the blind, and on this matter I think most Members of the House are agreed. We have laden—in fact, we have depressed—them with our sympathy. What we want now to do is to put the thing in such a position that the Government will withdraw this, and bring in on Monday, say, another Resolution, and give us a chance. The present position is hardly fair to the House, and I am not at all sure it is fair to the country.
  2626
  I am sure the Government wants to do what is right. I know they want to do what is popular in the country. There is nothing that would be more popular in the country than for people to see that we are really voting for a Measure of this kind. I do not agree with them about Government officials. Government officials are very necessary, and we can well afford to vote for large administrative things. I do once more beg the Government to withdraw this Resolution, and to give us a chance. We want to do what is right to the blind. We have spoken with eloquence, and we could go on for hours; but we do not want to be slushy about it; we just want justice. We are not speaking in the interests of our constituents, because many of us have very few blind in our constituencies; we speak with full hearts and with absolute conviction that on the whole it would pay not only the Government but also the country to look after the blind and to give every one of them a chance of education and of training. Some of them are really brilliant, though they sit in darkness and have no chance except through the reading of these Braille books, which, after all, are the result of voluntary effort in the beginning. We want to give them a chance of education, and, if need be, of going through college. I do not want to talk out the Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN: That is a matter for discussion on the Bill; we are now only dealing with the finance, and not with the provisions of the Bill.
  Viscountess ASTOR: My objection to this Financial Resolution is that it deals only with pensions and does not go to the root-evil of the whole situation or really give justice. It is trying to deal out charity.
  Mr. C. PALMER: I wish to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, and to join in the very strong feeling of the Committee against the inadequacy of this Financial Resolution. It is a striking commentary, after the week's frontal attack on the Government for their gross and wasteful expenditure, that the only time they should come forward and preach economy from the Treasury Bench is in respect of the blind. I am not going to say one unkind word about the Government in this matter, because I am not one

  2627
  of those who think that the Government are heartless and inhuman. This Government has brought in more humane legislation than any other Government in my lifetime. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, however, to take a kindly view and to realise the feeling of the House this afternoon. After all, we are spending £40,000,000 to relieve the oppressed people of the Middle East, and we ask that we shall have £500,000 to soften the tyranny of an awful degree of nature. I am perfectly certain that the right hon. Gentleman is as keen on this matter as we are and that he will listen to our plea. No time will be lost if this Motion be taken back and on Monday he comes forward with a little more money. It is not a big sum for which we ask on behalf of a class who do deserve and certainly receive the sympathy and goodwill of the teeming population of this country. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will be doing the right thing, and he will be reflecting the sympathy of the Committee this afternoon if he takes back this Resolution and brings it forward in a somewhat more liberal form.
  Mr. G. H. ROBERTS: When the Second Reading of the Bill to which this Resolution relates was before the House, I expressed the belief that it had the concurrence of every party in the State. I believe that we may view this matter without regard to party or other attachments. Therefore, I venture to associate myself with the appeals which have been made to my right hon. Friend that he will reconsider this matter. The provisions here set forth are absolutely inadequate, and I appeal to the Government, moreover, because of the objections which I have always entertained to the provisions of the old age pensions. After all, these Acts have had the effect of penalising the most thrifty classes and subjecting them to inquisitorial methods, which are repulsive to them, and, in operation, they have really been inimical to the best interests of the State. I think that we are approaching this problem from the wrong point of view. I am not merely concerned with what happens to blind people at 50, but I am concerned with them throughout the whole of their life, and if they are properly dealt with I believe they could be made self-supporting. We ought to fit them to be able to take their place in the life of the
  2628
  community, but we ought to provide for them when they are no longer able to struggle for their own livelihood. While I am thankful for what has been done, I urge upon the Government the inadequacy of the provision they have made. Whilst I know how insistent are the demands for economy, and recognise all the difficulties, I feel that the Government could not possibly be charged with extravagance in dealing generously with the blind of the community. I am sure that if they acceded to the appeals which have been made, the Government would for once be lifted above and beyond the arena of extravagance by a more generous treatment of the blind.
  While I am not going to do anything to deprive the blind even of this small instalment, I am prepared to associate myself with every section of the Committee who persist in these demands on behalf of the blind, and if we are compelled to accept this as an instalment, we must give the Government to understand that this is not final and that we will pursue these demands time after time until something like justice has been done to this section of the community. I think the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Motion would be well advised, on behalf of the Government, to interpret the sense of this House by withdrawing the motion at this juncture giving it further consideration and submitting something more generous and more nearly approximating to the justice and equity of the demand. I am not speaking in any party sense, because I have honestly endeavoured throughout the whole of my political life to lift the question of the blind above party, and I have always claimed that it is the duty of the State to maintain those who are unable to maintain themselves, the State, of course, taking every expedient to see that such qualities as they possess are drawn out for the purpose of maintenance, but When we have reached that point it is a social duty for us to see that those persons have a humane and tolerable life. While I am often criticised for being perhaps a too ready follower of the Government, that is not my concern. I am not here to embarrass the Government, but I believe that I can interpret the sense of the House and the country, and I say that if the Government withdraw these proposals and submit something on a more generous

  2629
  scale, they will meet with the approval of the people of this country and the Members of this House.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Would it be possible for the Government to give us a free vote on this matter? If so, from what I have heard of the Debate there is no doubt how the voting will go. Hon. Members all wish well to the blind, and the more they study the problem, the more they come into touch with blind men and organisations for the blind, the more they learn of the genuine feelings of the blind themselves, the more they will realise the desirability of the Government dealing with this question on really generous lines. I do not think hon. Members are quite aware of the ages at which people are most liable to become blind in this country. There seems to be a general impression that they become blind mostly in old age. I have the statistics compiled by a strong Departmental Committee in 1919 which throw some light on that question. The figures are given for decades, and I find that under one year of age the percentage of the blind is 21·4, between one and ten years, 10·8; between 10 and 20, 9·4; between 20 and 30, 9·7; between 30 and 40, 9·7; between 40 and 50, 11·0; between 50 and 60, 9·5; between 60 and 70, 9·6; and 70 and over 6·4. The Bill seems to have been framed under the belief that it is only the aged blind who need this help, but the figures I have read prove that the greater percentage of the blind become blind in their early life; therefore the age limit is quite uncalled for and unnecessary. There is only a small sum, comparatively speaking, required to meet what we are asking for. I would like to know if the Government will allow hon. Members a free vote in this matter. I am sorry that neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the Minister of Health is present, but perhaps the Financial Secretary to the Treasury can tell us if we are to have a free vote. The question is whether this mighty Empire, this wealthy country—probably the most solvent of all the belligerents in Europe, cannot find roughly half-a-million sterling which is required to put this matter right. I am sure there would not be one word of hostile criticism from any part of the House, even from the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). The right hon. Baronet is a most rigid economist where social welfare is concerned,
  2630
  and, although he is very generous where armaments are concerned—for quite honest reasons, I have no doubt—he looks upon matters like this with a very jealous eye. Would he grudge another quarter of a million to provide for the indigent blind under the age of fifty? I think this is one of the few items of expenditure of that sort that he would not grudge. I believe I carry the Committee with me in asking for a free vote on this. The Government refuse to withdraw the Resolution, but I still hope that they will allow us a free vote. If not, I am sure it will put many of their supporters in a very awkward position. For myself, I shall vote against it with the clearest of consciences. I am sure they will not make it a matter of confidence, and possibly we shall then have a proper measure. At any rate, I will take the risk. I want to say a word about the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Lieut.-Colonel J. Ward), to whom I always listen with the greatest interest. He made an irreproachable speech on exactly the same lines as my own. He was more eloquent, but, at any rate, he said that we ought to afford this money. The hon. and gallant Member has had as much to do as anyone in this House with turning opinion in favour of a tremendous expenditure on war for another few weeks or months.
  Major MOLSON: On a point of order. Has Russia anything to do with this Financial Resolution?
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) seems to have a little difficulty in observing our Rules as to relevance, but I would ask him to try and keep a little nearer to the Resolution.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Where an hon. and gallant Member who was instrumental in getting the House to vote additional millions—[HON. MEMBERS. "Divide, Divide!"]—Yes, we are all very hard stricken about the blind in this country, but some of that money went to make more blind people abroad. The hon. Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor) asked that we should not have a discussion—
  Mr. G. ROBERTS: Lift it above party.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I think I have a right to make this protest. It is all very well for hon. Members

  2631
  to sympathise with the blind. I only wish they were—
  Major Sir KEITH FRASERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: We on this side of the Committee try to point
  Question put accordingly, "That it is expedient to make such provision, out of moneys provided by Parliament, as is required for paying such pensions to blind persons who have attained the age of fifty as, under the Old Age Pension Acts, 1908 to 1919, they would be entitled to
  out to the Government that the Treasury is being depleted for purposes for which it ought not to be depleted.
  Mr. PALMERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 18.

  Division No. 160.]

  AYES.

  [5.0 p.m.

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

  Purchase, H. G.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Hinds, John

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

  Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Rees, Capt. J. Tudor (Barnstaple)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

  Reid, D. D.

  Blair, Reginald

  Irving, Dan

  Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

  Borwick, Major G. O.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Seddon, J. A.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

  Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

  Brassey, Major H. L. C.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Larmor, Sir Joseph

  Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

  Brown, Captain D. C.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

  Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

  Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

  Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

  Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

  Lindsay, William Arthur

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cautley, Henry S.

  Lorden, John William

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Sugden, W. H.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

  Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

  Sutherland, Sir William

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

  Taylor, J.

  Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

  Mitchell, William Lane

  Thomas-Stanford, Charles

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Moles, Thomas

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Duncannon, Viscount

  Molson, Major John Elsdale

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Edge, Captain William

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

  Fildes, Henry

  Murray, John (Leeds, West)

  Wason, John Cathcart

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

  White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Forrest, Walter

  Neal, Arthur

  Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

  Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

  Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

  Gould, James C.

  Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

  Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

  Hanna, George Boyle

  Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

  Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

  Harris, Sir Henry Percy

  Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

  Haslam, Lewis

  Pratt, John William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Pulley, Charles Thornton

  Mr. Palmer and Mr. Lynn.

  NOES.

  Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Myers, Thomas

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Holmes, J. Stanley

  Swan, J. E.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Kenworth, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Kiley, James D.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Lawson, John J.

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

  Colonel Wedgwood and Mr. Raffan.

  receive if they had attained the age of seventy, and any expenses incurred by any Government department and the expenses incurred by the local pension committees up to an amount approved by the Treasury in connection therewith in pursuance of any Act of the present

  2633
  Session to promote the welfare of blind persons."
  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.
  The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 110; Noes. 18.

  Division No. 161.]

  AYES.

  [5.7 p.m.

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Harris, Sir Henry Percy

  Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

  Bagley, Captain E. Ashton

  Haslam, Lewis

  Pratt, John William

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Pulley, Charles Thornton

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

  Purchase, H. G.

  Barnes Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

  Hinds, John

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barrand, A. R.

  Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  Blair, Reginald

  Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Reid, D. D.

  Borwick, Major G. O.

  Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

  Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Irving, Dan

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

  Brassey, Major H. L. C.

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

  Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

  Brown, Captain D. C.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

  Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

  Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

  Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

  Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

  Lindsay, William Arthur

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cautley, Henry S.

  Lorden, John William

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Lynn, R. J.

  Sugden, W. H.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

  Sutherland, Sir William

  Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

  McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

  Thomas-Stanford, Charles

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Mitchell, William Lane

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

  Moles, Thomas

  Wason, John Cathcart

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Molson, Major John Elsdale

  White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Duncannon, Viscount

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

  Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

  Edge, Captain William

  Mosley, Oswald

  Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  Murray, John (Leeds, West)

  Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

  Worstfold, Dr. T. Cato

  Forrest, Walter

  Neal, Arthur

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

  Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

  Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Gould, James C.

  Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

  Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

  Hanna, George Boyle

  Peel, Col. Hon. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

  NOES.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Swan, J. E.

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Lawson, John J.

  Taylor, J.

  Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Holmes, J. Stanley

  Seddon, J. A.

  Mr. Hogge and Colonel Wedgwood.

  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.
  Adjourned at Seventeen minutes after Five o'clock, till Monday next, 28th June, 1920.

  CABLE, VANCOUVER AND FANNING ISLAND.
  CABLE, VANCOUVER AND FANNING ISLAND.
IRELAND.
  PRISON-MADE GOODS.
  PRISON-MADE GOODS.
  STORE AND CLERK WARDERS.
  STORE AND CLERK WARDERS.
  TEACHERS (PAY AND PENSIONS).
  TEACHERS (PAY AND PENSIONS).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  ARTIFICIAL LEGS.
  ARTIFICIAL LEGS.
  AWARD (PAYMENT).
  AWARD (PAYMENT).
  WEST INDIA CABLE STEAMER.
  WEST INDIA CABLE STEAMER.
INDIA.
  GENERAL DYER.
  GENERAL DYER.
  INCOME TAX COMMISSIONERS (CLERKS).
  INCOME TAX COMMISSIONERS (CLERKS).
ROYAL NAVY.
  WAR CASUALTIES.
  WAR CASUALTIES.
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

TREDEGAR URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to the Tredegar Urban District Council Bill I make the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper. The Bill is late, but it has been delayed by negotiations which, I am happy to say, have now resulted in its being unopposed; therefore I think it reasonable that your Lordships should waive the Sessional Order.
Moved, That the Order made on the 29th day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Thursday, the 17th day of June next," be dispensed with in respect of the Tredegar Urban District Council Bill; and that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill read 2a.

LONDONDERRY BRIDGE COMMISSIONERS BILL. [H.L.]
  MERTHYR TYDFIL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]

    CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
    Moved, That Standing Order No. 143 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of these Bills; and that the Bills be now read 3a.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to. Bills read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).

MESOPOTAMIA.
LORD ISLINGTON LORD ISLINGTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government—
If they can now state the form of Civil Administration it is proposed to set up in Mesopotamia.
To state the number of officers now engaged in the Civil Administration; also the number of troops at present stationed there, British and Indian.
To state the expenditure on the British Exchequer entailed by our present occupation of the country.
To state under which Department of Government the country is now being and will be administered.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, as you are aware, the Questions appearing in my name on the Paper have stood there for some months past, but owing to various causes they have had to be postponed; and now within the last few days,—I may say almost within the last few hours—some, and those the most important, of the Questions have been answered in the other House. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will regard the Questions I have put down more in the nature of the basis of a general debate on Mesopotamia, and a debate which, I think, ranks, and should rank, in importance with almost any of the many subjects with which we are now confronted outside these Islands.
I think it is especially important that there should be a debate in this House on the subject of the administration, both past and future, of Mesopotamia, particularly in regard to the fact that about forty-eight hours ago in the other House the Prime Minister reinforced the announcement from Baghdad by a speech on the whole matter. I greatly welcome the announcement that the future Administration of Mesopotamia is to take the definite form of an Arab Administration. I think that the announcement was in the end somewhat precipitate, not to say unusual, after the long effort that has been made to obtain information on this subject. The announcement, as I understand it, comes from Baghdad by means of a telegram read by the Secretary of State for India in the House of Commons, and that announcement was reinforced in the debate by a speech on the matter from the Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister informed the country that the announcement in regard to the future administration of Mesopotamia was made at the earliest possible moment, that it was justified only by the recent decision come to by the Associated Powers at San Remo, and he urged that it could not possibly have been made before that date. I would say with all respect that this statement implies an extraordinary amount of credulity on the part of the British public. I myself venture to say that this somewhat precipitate announcement, whilst it may have been due in measure to the decision at San Remo, was also undoubtedly due to the persistent pressure that has been applied in this connection by the public and by the Press for sonic time past. And very properly so. Because, after all, this subject of the administration of Mesopotamia is one which, almost more than any other, intimately concerns the interests of the British Empire in the East, as, indeed, it affects most seriously the taxpayers of this country. It has been a subject which Parliament for months past has had a right to discuss; it is a subject which Parliament has now a solemn duty to examine.
The subject for examination divides itself under two heads: First, the administration of Mesopotamia during the past two years, and, second, the methods to be employed to establish the new Arab system of Government in that country. Each is necessarily interlocked with the other. I would like to make a few observations now on the past and present administration. In the House of Commons the Prime Minister, with, I think, rather assumed innocence but accustomed ingenuity, asked the House, What is the grievance against the Government in regard to Mesopotamia? He was puzzled to know what the case was; and he added, Ought we to have cleared out altogether from Mesopatamia? The answer to this question is quite clear and simple. The case against the Government—one which I say no rhetoric or ingenuity of debate can overcome—is this, that for two years they have established and developed a system of Government in Mesopotamia absolutely at variance with the solemn promises in the declaration of November, 1918, made by Sir Percy Cox to the people of Mesopotamia.
I will trouble your Lordships by quoting the words embodied in that declaration. They are as follows—
850
"Far from wishing to impose any particular institution on these lands, they" France and Great Britain] "have no other care but to assure, by their support, effective aid to the normal Working of the Governments and Administrations which they shall have adopted of their own free will."
However deep you may delve into the recesses of constitutional history based upon undertakings, you will find it difficult to discover any more conspicuous instance of a system of Government being established at greater variance from the principles underlying that undertaking than has been instituted in Mesopotamia during the past two years; and certainly never a system that has imposed heavier or more unwarranted burdens on the taxpayers of this country.
If I may, I will examine that position. still further. The Prime Minister contends that no definite steps of settled Government could possibly be taken in Mesopotamia before the decision was made by the Allied Powers at San Remo. I ask this question, What has been done without that sanction during the past two years? Something I venture to say, far moredefinite, something, involving far more interference and implying far greater responsibility than anything entailed in the mandatory system. To-day there exists in Mesopotamia what I think may be rightly described as a complete system of British Crown Colony Administration. I think it is worth while examining it, and I hope the noble Earl will deal with it both in regard to its principles and its details, because the Prime Minister in another place avoided, or rather evaded, it.
What is the Administration which to-day prevails in Mesopotamia? I have had the advantage of reading two Official Returns published by the British Government Press in Baghdad. I hope that these Returns, brought up to date and in certain respects made still more explicit and explanatory, will be laid on the Table of both Houses and published in this country. They contain much interesting information. We have been told by the Prime Minister that the Civil Administration in Mesopotamia has not cost the taxpayers of this country a penny piece. But what has it cost the taxpayers of Mesopotamia? A large and expensive establishment has been set up, as is shown by those Returns. The comparative table is still more interesting, because, whereas in 1918–19 the revenue was something

851
like £1,250,000 and the expenditure about the same sum, in the following year, 1919–20, that revenue had increased to £5,500,000 and the expenditure to within a comparatively small amount of that total. I note that 419 gazetted officers are established on the list, almost all of them military and almost all of them British. Their salaries range from 450 to 2,800 rupees per month; 270 of them receive 700 rupees and upwards per month, and 60 of them 1,000 rupees per month. Obviously, these do not include the clerks and subordinate servants who, as your Lordships are well aware, represent a very vast host in British-governed establishments in the East. These figures mean that the complete revenue collected from Mesopotamia within one year showed a rise of 437 per cent. and the expenditure a rise of 490 per cent.
It is hardly to be wondered at, with this rate of increase, that the Administration, as one is credibly informed from a variety of sources, is becoming more and more unpopular in Mesopotamia. No wonder that one hears the whisper that Mesopotamia is calling almost pathetically for the return of the Turks. I should like to know—and perhaps my noble friend will be able to tell us—whether that is a progressive Return this year and whether there are still further increases on these abnormal increases between 1918–19 and 1919–20. What I say, with all respect, is that this system which I have outlined is nothing short of a travesty of the Declaration of 1918 which I have just read to the House. And I would like to ask my noble friend this question. If, as the Prime Minister says, before the Conference at San Remo he had no justification for interfering with Mesopotamia to the extent of setting up an Arab Government, in Heaven's name what justification had he for setting up what is in effect a Crown Colony system—I may add a super-Crown Colony system—at the expense of the Mesopotamians, needing to support it an Army establishment of 80,000 troops, British and Indian, at the expense of the British taxpayer to the tune of anything round about £50,000,000 a year? To make that the reason for this long delay is playing with words, as, indeed, it is playing with money.
I have no doubt it will be said to me in reply, What is the alternative? The Prime Minister says that the only alter
852
native was to clear out of the country and leave it to chaos. I contend, and contend most strongly, that a system of Arab Government could have been, and should have been, initiated and instituted at the Armistice. My noble friend probably remembers—it is clear in my recollection—that two and a-half years ago it was urged by prominent members of the Government—I was in the Government at the time, and I strongly urged it with them—that then, when we were occupying the country, when the Turk had been turned out, a Commission should be sent to Mesopotamia to investigate on the spot and to make preparations for an Administration in the spirit of the Declaration made in 1918. The Government refused, for what I respectfully describe as the same specious kind of reason as is now put forward in connection with this Declaration from San Remo.
Now it has been done. I venture to say that had it been done then the chances of success would have been far greater than they are now; the feelings of the Mesopotamians need not have been alienated and a saving of many millions of pounds to the British taxpayer would have been effected. I note in the speech of the Prime Minister that he announced to the country that Sir Percy Cox has been selected to prepare a new scheme. As an individual undoubtedly no better selection could have been made. Sir Percy Cox has had a long and distinguished career in the East, especially in Mesopotamia and Persia, and he has an intimate knowledge of all the conditions of those countries. But I contend that it would be unfair to lay upon one man this intolerable burden of responsibility of framing a new Constitution. I believe that no one man can undertake it. Sir Percy Cox has had years of uninterrupted and arduous work, and to place upon his individual shoulders a duty of this character, with the conditions prevailing in Mesopotamia, is to ask him to discharge a task which is, I believe, beyond the measure of any individual, however distinguished and however experienced he may be.
It must be remembered that the situation is now considerably complicated. Not only have you a certain alienation of the community in Mesopotamia, but Sir Percy Cox, on his travels in Mesopotamia, will probably find himself confronted by a formidable and established official bureaucracy. I need not expand that point.

853
You have this immense bureaucracy, and naturally those who are established within that system will not look with any favourable eye on a system which is a complete reversal of that policy. if this dangerous situation in Mesopotamia is to be saved, I say roost strongly that Sir Percy Cox should be aided and supported by a small and competent Commission. There is certainly no difficulty in finding the men for that purpose. I could mention straight off half a score of men admirably competent to aid in this particular work and conversant with the whole conditions of the Arab community. There would be no fear of delay. Far from retarding the proceedings, a Commission of this character would accelerate them, because to make a drastic reversal of policy such as will have to be made must take some time. It is most important that the advice with regard to the establishment of the new council, the new assemblies, and the new district councils, should be given by those who are most competent to give advice on the matter.
One observation appears to me to be obscure in the declaration made in Baghdad last week. I will quote it—
"His Majesty's Government, having been entrusted with the mandate of Mesopotamia, anticipate that the mandate will constitute Mesopotamia as an independent State under the guarantee of the League of Nations and subject to the mandate of Great Britain, that it will lay on them the responsibility for the maintenance of internal peace and external security."
Perhaps the noble Earl will be able to inform the House whether this means that the League of Nations is to be responsible for the external peace of Mesopotamia, to protect it against invasion, or whether it means Great Britain, because the reading to me seems somewhat obscure. If we are to rely on the League of Nations I am afraid that for same years to come it will be a slender reed. On the other hand, if it is to be Great Britain that is to be responsible for the protection of Mesopotamia, without making a comment on it I say that the taxpayer should at least know what he will have to face in regard to the maintenance of what must be a considerable force in that country for some years to come.
We have been told by the Prime Minister that the profits from the oil at Mosul is eventually to go to the credit of the people of Mesopotamia. I welcome that information, but I assume it will be some years before that oil is a profitable asset to
854
Mesopotamia, and it is of importance that the people in Great Britain should know how many years they will have to pay for an Army to protect the oil before a sufficient revenue is raised from it to pay for the protection of the country.
I turn now to the military situation in Mesopotamia. I have put a Question down, and answers have been given on several occasions in another place, in regard to the number of troops now stationed in that country. It is difficult to get any precise estimate of the number of troops there. I notice that the Secretary of State for War, in answer to a question in the House of Commons, said that they amounted to 80,000 men—66,500 Indians and 13,500 British—and to these must be added, as your Lordships will be aware, the large subsidiary following, amounting to hundreds of thousands, which always are to be found in the train of a great Army in the East. I should like, if the information could be given, to know what is the rationed strength of the military garrison in Mesopotamia to-day. As far as we can gather—and here again I have no doubt we shall get information from the noble Earl—this garrison is posted in small units in many instances in remote and inaccessible places, and a portion of it is posted in North-West Persia. I would like to know for what purpose this force is posted in North-West Persia. Under the Anglo-Persian Treaty Great Britain undertakes to furnish financial and military advisers to re-adjust the economy and to help the organisation of the Persian Army. Does the Treaty impose the obligation on Great Britain to protect the independent State of Persia by a military garrison? In other words, are we to undertake for the independent State of Persia obligations such as rightly fall on our shoulders when we are protecting one of our own Crown Colonies? This to my mind is a matter of great importance to the taxpayers of this country, and I think they have a right to ask for information on it.
I should like to hear the noble Earl say that we are going to have a change in this policy of indiscriminate garrisoning of remote and inaccessible parts of the East. A time has come when we have to make up our minds as a country that we can no longer undertake to be either the rulers or the protectors of the whole of the world, and if we try, as we have tried so often in the last two years, to

855
ineffectively undertake this protection, to my mind it is the most sure means of damaging our prestige in these countries. It would be much better for us to have no garrison there at all.
I should also like to ask whether the Mesopotamian garrison extends itself far, and to what extent, into the mountains of Kurdistan which lie outside the borders of Mesopotamia proper? I am told that there are many small units dotted about in these fastnesses indefinitely stretching themselves from Persia into this hilly country. I have heard it said by those who know the country well that the whole country of Kurdistan corresponds to the North-West frontier of India, the tribal frontier of India. The experience we have had in the past of placing small garrisons among these hostile tribes has taught us that it is very much better to withdraw these small units and place them on the line of the Indus. It was found that we could not place strong enough garrisons, and that their presence was only provocative and led to trouble amongst the tribes, and we therefore wisely decided to withdraw from that hilly country and protect our line in India on the line of the Indus. I have been told by those who are competent to give an opinion that the same policy should be carried out in Mesopotamia; that we should not place our garrisons a yard further than the plains, and protect the country of Mesopotamia on the plains below the hilly country of Kurdistan. I am told also that if that were done it would immediately enable a considerable number of the present force to be reduced.
Then I would ask this, because I am sure that every one in this House and in the country is decided that all conceivable steps should be taken to reduce the enormous expense to the taxpayer by reducing the garrison in Mesopotamia wherever possible—I would ask whether the force could not be more scientifically posted and garrisoned through Mesopotamia. Sixty or seventy thousand troops, which is at present the garrison, for a population of something round two and a-half to three millions, seems out of all proportion, and I cannot help feeling that if well and scientifically posted on the main roads the garrison ought to undergo a very large reduction.
I would further ask my noble friend whether he can tell the House what steps are being taken to organise an Arab army.
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You want something more than an Arab gendarmerie, because the country has to be protected, with this dangerous flank on the North-West, from those tribes which are in the habit of coming down into the plain. What steps have been and are being taken to organise an Arab Army? The Defence Force should undoubtedly be, under the new scheme, exclusively local subjects of Mesopotamia, and it should be a voluntary force; and I hope that more active steps are going to be taken to organise and train that force, because so soon as that can be done the British garrison can be correspondingly withdrawn. There is something much more in this than the mere stationing of a large garrison and the cost to this country. There is also the serious aspect of continuing to garrison Mesopotamia with Indian troops. Indian troops are totally unsuited to the people of Mesopotamia. They come into conflict with them, and I am quite certain of this, that India in her present mood, and coming under the new system of Government, will resent and articulately resent being asked to provide a police force outside her borders. Therefore I hope that at the earliest possible date the Indian troops may be withdrawn from Mesopotamia.
I should like to say one word about the resources of Mesopotamia. I understand that the potential resources of the country are very great, and I venture to say that their exploitation in the future should in no way infringe the principle of self-government laid down in the Declaration. The well-being of the country must be a cardinal feature in the future government of Mesopotamia. The oil profits are to accrue to Mesopotamia principally. I venture to say that nothing should be done with regard to the development of oil which would interfere with the political development of the country. If foreign capital on a large scale were sunk in the oilfields of Mesopotamia, the owners of that capital would undoubtedly demand a higher standard of administration, and that would have a serious effect upon the steady development of the self-government of the country. I venture to say that this standard, whatever it be, should in no way interrupt or defer the self-government of the country.
Take irrigation. We were told that with irrigation a million acres could be brought into high production. But the same considerations apply there. The population of Mesopotamia is very sparse. It is difficult

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to get at exact figures, but I am told on good authority that it is something round 3,000,000. The construction of irrigation can only be profitable if accompanied by capital and a large immigration of labour, which presumably would have to come from India. Here again that would immediately produce conflict in the country, and the Indian coolie would be very ill-suited to be placed alongside the Arab of Mesopotamia. The creation of a mixed population would make internal peace and self-government in that country exceedingly difficult, and I venture to say also that here again India would deeply resent and refuse anything in the nature of a large emigration of indentured labour to Mesopotamia. It all points to this, that development must be on modest lines and parallel with the development of the indigenous population.
Another question—I am afraid I am putting a great many to the noble Earl—is whether any real attempt has been made within the last months to unify the control here with regard to Mesopotamia, or are the Departments continuing, as we have good reason to believe has been the case during the last few years to be masters each in their own household? Has one Department the control of both civil and military administration? It is clear that the Foreign Office, the War Office, the India Office, the Munitions Department, and the Air Department have all had a share in the enterprise and expenditure, and I am sure it is essential, even in the time that intervenes now and the setting up of an Arab State, that without delay Mesopotamia should be placed under one single authoritative control, with a consistent policy. Only in that way will this immense costliness and inefficiency be withdrawn.
I would like to ask here, if it can be given, what is the full total expenditure on Mesopotamia—the total of everything, so that the public in this country may know what the cost of Mesopotamia has been and is to-day. The aspects of the problem in Mesopotamia which I have briefly touched upon I venture to say are of the most infinite importance to our position in the East. Mesopotamia is a pivot in the Mid-Eastern position, and once you adopt a system acceptable to the people I have little doubt that you will secure peace and contentment, and that that peace and contentment will extend both to the East and the West of that country.
I pass from the administration of Mesopotamia, and if I may ask your kind indulgence I would like to say a word on what perhaps to the people of this country is even of greater importance, and that is our own economic and financial position in regard to our responsibility in Mesopotamia. We are now in the second year since the cessation of hostilities, and advancing towards the third year, and to-day we have imposed upon us an enormous current expenditure of £1,150,000,000. The attention of the Government, as one cannot help seeing, and the anxiety to a great extent of the public, appears to be devoted to the almost hopeless task of finding revenue to meet this gigantic sum. Each tax as presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is regarded by the public as so crushing in its effect on enterprise and industry that the recuperative power of the nation is paralysed, and the hope of a revival of trade is postponed. So urgent and absorbing has the endeavour to find revenue been that the real root of the evil, in my judgment, has received insufficient attention. The whole undivided attention of the Government and the public ought to be devoted from now onwards to the reduction of expenditure. Expenditure to-day is manifestly far in excess of the nation's capacity to meet it, and unless in the next six months a reduction amounting to hundreds of millions can be effected you are going to be faced next year with a financial position in this country of the utmost gravity.
It is not my business to indicate the various directions in which a reduction can be made. We all knew that they are manifold. Last night, in another place, a debate took place on the Transport Department, which is showing itself to be a perfect monument of extravagance, and, as experience is showing, is doing really little, administratively, in the direction of economy and efficiency Let me remind your Lordships that the annual expenditure this year is in excess of the expenditure of 1914 by no less a sum than £950,000,000. A great deal of that, we all know, is inevitable as the aftermath of the war, but there is vest scope for economy, and certainly pre-eminent among the sources of economy and in the very front rank among our commitments are those in connection with Mesopotamia.
What is the position at home, seriously

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accentuated as it is by this? I will take one or two examples as symptoms, and they are only one or two out of scores that could be taken. We see to-day—we are getting almost accustomed to it—that our hospitals in the metropolis are on the verge of bankruptey, and within a week or two of closing. A whole multitude of institutions upon which the very social system of this country has been built up are to-day in a state of insolvency, and in a short time will be closing their doors. I will give a small instance with which I am familiar. As Chairman of the Imperial Institute, an organisation which is useful from an Imperial and commercial point of view, I have been trying for three years to get a paltry sum of £15,000. We are faced with having within the next few weeks to close our doors because we have not enough to pay for the staff, and there is great difficulty in obtaining £15,000 for the maintenance of this institution. I merely give that as an example.
Let us look a little wider afield. The country gentlemen of England to-day are hardly able to live in their own homes. They are the very backbone of our social and political system throughout the country, and they are groaning under the weight of taxation to such an extent that many of them have had either to shut their houses or to undergo very great hardships. Again, we have a number of people of modest incomes—unearned incomes—who are reduced to extreme straits and are undergoing the greatest possible suffering. As Chairman of the National Savings Organisation I have an opportunity, perhaps above that of a good many people, of knowing what the feelings are of people throughout the country. We have 200,000 workers, and they send their reports to their committees, who, in turn, report to the Central Committee. The same answer to saving comes from the working classes, and indeed from all the classes who are asked to save. They saw, "What is the good of it, with the extravagance of the Government going on as it is?"
I make no apology for going rather off my beat and giving expression to what I may describe as rather straight speaking this afternoon. I think the times demand it. The irony of the national fate is this, that at a time when the country is passing through a period of the greatest financial
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necessity it so happens that it has the most extravagant Government in the whole of its history. The Prime Minister tries to pacify the country by saying, as he did in the House of Commons the other day, "It is fortunate that the war did not go on for another year. Had it gone on for another year £2,000,000,000 more would have been added to the National Debt." What an answer! What an irony in the situation that confronts us to-day! The Prime Minister possesses many qualities. Perhaps the most important, and in these days most useful, is the fact that he is very responsive to public opinion, so responsive to it that he is able to be flexible in his opinion. I would like to see him throwing the whole weight of the magnetic influence which he undoubtedly possesses in this country to-day, not in the balance of extravagance, but in the balance of economy. I am quite convinced that you will never get the present Government to take the initiative in effecting a real reduction of expenditure. The only hope in this country is that Parliament, the Press, and the public should combine in a crusade and compel the Government to economise. Only then will it be done. Only then shall we begin to see daylight. I hope that till that day comes—may it come very soon!—your Lordships will take your full share in the crusade in the public interest.
There are three points that I have tried to lay stress on to-night. The first. is that the existing administration of Mesopotamia is absolutely without justification, is dangerous from the point of view of policy in the East, and is far beyond our capacity, and that our expenditure upon it should immediately be reduced. Secondly, the policy, whether good or bad, in Mesopotamia affects the whole of the East and the position of the British Empire in the East. Thirdly, I would say that the administration of Mesopotamia, as we have seen it during the past two years, is a serious blow to the prestige of the mandatory system. Most people regard the mandatory system as probably one of the best results of the war. Whatever may happen to the League of Nations in the days to come, at any rate the mandatory system lays down a fine conception for the assistance of Governments throughout the world, and largely will be the death-knell to the policy of conquest and exploitation in the future. Fourthly, let me say that in

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all these matters the administration in Mesopotamia and elsewhere, where the public in this country are closely and substantially affected, no decision should be come to until Parliament has had a full opportunity of examination and decision in the matter. Lastly, I express the conviction that our future position in the East bears in a very large measure on the spirit and the methods by which we undertake the mandatory responsibility.
As a result of the war the position of the British Empire is greater than it has ever been. We have imposed upon us by our military conquests enormous additional responsibility. The victory that we have achieved in the great war is a victory for British Imperial principles. We have fought for the right of nations to self-determination, and for the democratic method of government. The war has brought many changes. Dynasties have fallen, political systems have collapsed, countries have been reduced to chaos, the economic and social conditions of millions of people have been altered either for better or for worse, and it is difficult for us who live in these days to see the full perspective of the vast issues that are arising from this great upheaval of the world. But probably the change that will prove the most permanent, the one that will exercise a greater effect on future history than any other, is the changed mentality of the world. We live in a new world. In a sense our whole outlook is different, especially those of the new generation. And this aspect must be appreciated by all, especially those who are directing affairs. Millions of men and women to-day have learnt to suspect, and many of them to dislike, alien domination, whether it be of a class or a nation.
It is therefore of the utmost importance to approach this task in the mandatory countries, not as rulers, but as teachers We are not asked to govern the peoples, we are asked to teach them to govern themselves, and that is the essential spirit that should actuate all that we do from the very commencement. It is of the utmost importance that the men who direct affairs at home and the men whom we send to undertake these tasks should believe in that mission, should have faith and patience to work to the ideal; and to realise the truth that self-government, though it may be imperfect in its kind—and it will be very imperfect in many of these places—in the long run will be a better and a more
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satisfactory form of government than a bureaucracy, however benevolent that bureaucracy may be. It is important also not to attempt in too rigid a form to impose Western notions on Eastern peoples, but, in the spirit of the best Western teachers, to encourage them to think for themselves, to build up a system of government consistent with the best ideals of their race, and therefore one that will have the sanction of native opinion. This I believe to be the only way in which peace and welfare will be secured out of the welter that we see before us. This is the only way that our trust will be fulfilled. And, finally, this is the only way in which we shall succeed in this gigantic task, and maintain, as we must, in our country economic and financial stability.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, the question raised by the noble Lord is one of the very greatest importance. We are incurring, as he said, very heavy expenditure in Mesopotamia, and the situation there at the present moment is far from satisfactory. We went into this war without any idea of territorial expansion. The Empire was quite big enough in August, 1914, and it was only partially, and, in some places, not in the least, developed. Now we find ourselves forced to take the care of another derelict country, and we should be unworthy of our past if we did not take up this new burden with courage and confidence. I am quite sure my noble friend did not mean that we should abnegate any responsibility that we have now assumed. I am glad that we have assumed responsibility for Mesopotamia, though I am afraid I cannot agree with my noble friend in his estimate of the merits of the mandatory system. To my mind—I hope I am wrong—the mandatory system seems to be only an ingenious device for facilitating intrigues against the British Empire. But I believe that we as a nation are more fitted than any other people to undertake the work of bringing back peace and prosperity to a country which has been ruined by centuries of Turkish misrule.
The population of the three vilayets of Mesopotamia is not Much over 2,000,000 at the present time, and that is not much more than some Collectors' districts in India. But the area is at least 150,000 square miles, and, though the area cultivated at the present moment is far larger than it has ever been in any modern times it bears a very small proportion to the

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total area. It is quite certain that with irrigation and, in the northern parts, without irrigation, Mesopotamia can easily be made to be self-supporting, but the process must be very gradual, and it will depend, of course, upon the number of local cultivators who can be trained or fresh cultivators who can be introduced from other places. Apart from oil, which appears to be the subject of a somewhat sordid dispute at the present time, wheat, barley, and cotton can be produced in very large quantities, and in some parts of Mesopotamia without irrigation, and those are staples which the world is likely to want more and more, because, as we all know, the white man seems to be tending to betake himself to towns, and to leave cultivation in the country to the coloured races.
To restore the lost riches of Mesopotamia is merely a question of capital and of labour, gradually and intelligently brought to bear. But a prime necessity will be law and order in the country. For that reason, therefore, the question of the Civil Administration is really one of vital importance. We have already incurred very large capital expenditure on railways, on making a great port at Basra, and on many other things required during the war. We keep a relatively large military force there, as my noble friend has said; yet unrest seems to be growing, and the recent loss of British lives at Tel Afar gives an indication that further troubles may lie before us. I believe the cause of those troubles is distinctly Turkish and Bolshevist propaganda, which is beginning to permeate among the Arabs of the Middle East. Arabs are peculiarly susceptible, as indeed are most people, to such a propaganda, and we have had up to the present no sort of counteracting measures. Immediately after Lord Allenby's very brilliant campaign in Palestine the Arabs, who were our valuable Allies during that campaign, looked upon us as their saviours, and we became for the time extraordinarily popular with them. But we seem to have played our cards so badly, in Palestine especially, that now the Arabs are ceasing to trust us, and there are even signs of a rapprochement between them and their secular enemies, the Turks.
The noble Lord pointed to the changed mentality of the world. That is very true, and among those changes is a great national Arab sentiment, which sprang up as one of the effects of the war. It is a sentiment which is very strong, which is growing, and
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it is a sentiment of which we must take full account. If any great military commitments are to be avoided in the future, and if a stable political situation is to be attained, as is essential, I feel that what we must do is to set up an Arab State. In the whole of the British Empire there is no more prosperous portion at the present time than the Federated States of the Malay Peninsula. The four principal of those States are all governed by native Rulers, with British Residents at their side, and they are federated under a Council, over which a British Commissioner presides, which makes laws affecting all of them. That system has been a wonderful success; it has proved to be no hindrance whatever to the proper exploitation of the wonderful resources of the Malay Peninsula, and it has also proved to be to the immense advantage of the inhabitants of those States. As you all remember, the Malay States most generously gave a battleship to the British Navy during the war.
I think we can learn from that experience in Mesopotamia. I do not know whether it would be possible to constitute the three vilayets of Mesopotamia into States with native Rulers with British Residents at their side, but, if a federation of that kind is impossible, then I think the only thing is to set up an Arab Government, with British advisers, and under absolute British control so far as its foreign policy is concerned, and I believe that that is the only way in which we can fulfil our responsibilities to the people of Mesopotamia. If an Arab chief of the Sherifian family, to which all the Arab tribes look up with respect, could be established at Baghdad, I believe that this policy could be carried to very complete success. But the success would depend entirely on the British officers appointed as Residents. I am certain that the Arabs perfectly well understand that they will never develop Mesopotamia by themselves, and that they will be perfectly ready to take the type of man we can send to them to advise and lead them to prosperity and progress. We in the British Empire happily possess that right type of man, and it is only necessary to look for them in the right way. In conclusion, the real crux of the situation in the Middle East at the present time is that we British people should regain the support and the full confidence of the Arab population, which I fear we are now in great danger of losing.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I have some hesitation in intervening in the debate this afternoon, because I know that when a man has visited a strange Country and comes back and endeavours to give information to his fellow-countrymen he is generally presumed to draw rather upon a fund of imagination than accurate knowledge. But I hope I may be free from that suspicion this afternoon. Since my noble friend originally put down his Question the situation has considerably changed, and I hope that this change will be at once reflected in Mesopotamia: because at the present moment the people in Mesopotamia, both those responsible for the government and those who are governed, have been in a state of suspense. They have been waiting to know what was to be the future of the country, whether it was to be retained or evacuated; if retained, what was to be the form of government, and what were the limits within which that form of government would be set up. The consequence in Mesopotamia has been that the development of the country has been arrested, that trade and commerce have been retarded, and that the financial houses have hesitated to do anything more than assist such trade as was going on, and have not been inclined to assist in the future development of the country until they had more accurate information of what that future was to be. This has had, of course, a great effect upon the balance-sheet of the country. The movement of that balance-sheet has merely been on the expenditure side—the expenditure has been an unremunerative one, and there has been little revenue coming in. But I believe that this will now be changed after they have a knowledge of what is to happen to the country.
In this country there have been two schools of thought with regard to Mesopotamia—the optimists who thought it was a Garden of Eden where everything could be grown, and the pessimists, who regarded it as a bare desert. As usual, I think the truth lies between the two schools of thought. Also there have been those who thought we ought to retain Mesopotamia for sentimental reasons because of the sacrifice of life which has been made there. Although I have naturally the deepest sympathy with this feeling, I regard it as a most dangerous one when applied to any specific area of country where there has been fighting; because surely we cannot in this be guided by sentiment, we can be guided only by
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the state of the national balance-sheet as regards our resources, both in money and men, which may be available for us to incur the responsibilities that are placed upon us in so many parts of the world. We must also be guided by the potentialities of the special districts under consideration.
With regard to the first, we have not very much information; but with regard to the potentalities and the future of Mesopotamia, I personally have a great belief in it if we can set up a lasting and stable Government. I am glad to hear that we are going to set up an Arab Government there, and that Sir Percy Cox, in whom every one I met in that country has the greatest confidence, is being called in to give his advice. I think it may take some time to set up an Arab Government in Mesopotamia. It will naturally take time to form a Government from people who have had very little experience in governing; and there are difficulties and divisions among the Arabs themselves which will need some delicate handling. But I am convinced that such a Government ought to be set up with the least possible delay, that the speed at which it should be set up should be guided merely by the rate of efficiency which it can attain, and that nothing else should stand in the way of setting it up. Then I believe we may look forward to a future in Mesopotamia. Provided always that within the limits of Mesopotamia the vilayet of Mosul is retained. I am sure that if we were not to retain the vilayet of Mosul we might then go back to Basra, because you could not, in my opinion, set up a frontier at Baghdad. There is no natural frontier there. If you were to set up a frontier at Baghdad you would be depriving Mesopotamia of what I believe will be the richest there, and I do not think you will be able to relieve it of one man necessary to protect it.
As my noble friend Lord Islington said, in the vilayet and the district of Mosul you have oil and also the greatest agricultural possibilities. The great impediment to the development of Mesopotamia is the want of agricultural labour and the difficulty of introducing any kind of labour. At the same time you have now going on in the country a most appalling infant mortality among the Arabs. We owe a great debt of gratitude to our medical men at present at Baghdad who, in the very short time during which they have been there, have with great vigour and

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energy endeavoured to cope with this evil by establishing hospitals, by medical research, and by the spreading of knowledge and endeavouring to induce the Arabs to come to the hospitals, which they are doing with the greatest success. But the result of their labours must take some time to become fully apparent.
Therefore you have this position. You have a shortage of labour and, at the same time, the necessity for increasing the production of the country. The only way in which this can be overcome is by laboursaving appliances. In the agricultural districts along the Euphrates and the Tigris where corn is grown, it is very difficult to introduce labour-saving appliances except in the shape of oil pumps which are being use for irrigation purposes, and which the Arabs at the present moment are freely purchasing and using. The reason you cannot use such things as motors or tractors in those districts is that the system of irrigation cuts the ground up into such small patches. But when you come to the Mosul district you are in very different country. It is a rich and fertile land with oil in the neighbourhood; and there is coal, though I believe it is of somewhat poor quality, which is being used at Mosul, and more of it is to be found in the district. Here you have a place mosul suitable for agricultural farming on a big scale. Around Mosul there is a large virgin plain where tractors and other labour-saving appliances could be used. They have grown excellent crops of corn and of cotton, and they have recently made successful experiments with beet.
Just as I was leaving Baghdad I heard that we were endeavouring to start an agricultural organisation at Mosul. Nearly the whole of the capital has been found by the Arabs themselves, on one condition—and that I think a very interesting one—that the managing director of the company should be an Englishman. The Arabs were anxious to obtain his knowledge and his probity and, through him, to be able to place themselves in communication with other countries to obtain machinery. A large order for machinery was ready to be placed in Canada. They were only waiting to carry on this organisation until they could find out what was to be the future of the vilayet of Mosul and whether we were going to hold jurisdiction over that part of Mesopotamia. Surely such an organisation—or organisations, for I believe more could be formed—. would be most useful in
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two directions. It would be useful in the satisfactory development of the country, and, moreover, there could be no greater factor for peace than that you should get the Arabs on the border to invest their money in agriculture and in the land and join together to promote such companies as these. I believe it would be one of the greatest influences for the pacification of that district. The Englishman who was found to take charge of this organisation, who had been a Colonel in charge of the Government farm near Mosul, told me when I saw him that he was most hopeful, if we still possessed that district, that the Arabs there would show the greatest inclination to take part in such organisations and to find the capital for them. I am confident that if a stable Government is established, there is a great future before that district.
Before I sit down, if you will allow me, I should like, merely as one who has travelled in that district, to pay a tribute to the work which has been done by our officers out there. They are scattered throughout the desert of Mesopotamia far from civilisation in many places, and they have been living in circumstances of the greatest difficulty, not knowing exactly what was to be the future of the Government of the country. They have been living, too in circumstances of hardship, owing to the great extremes of climate, and of danger. I have not the figures, but I believe some eight or ten officers have already given up their lives, and for each post where the officer was killed there was always a great number of volunteers. These young men—for the majority of them are quite young—have been taken from the Regular Army, Kitchener's Army and the Territorial Force. They have had various trainings and various upbringings, but they are bound together by a desire to develop the country in which they have the greatest faith. They have also established—if I had time I could give your Lordships numerous instances—the greatest confidence with the Arabs, who have a great belief in them and who have relied upon them in the carrying on of all their work in the district. For their loyalty, for their zeal, and for their singleness of purposes, these young officials have deserved our gratitude, and—I am judging by my own ignorance of their work until I visited it—I am sure that if the people of this country knew more of what they are doing, the greater would be the gratitude felt to them.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, the noble Viscount who has just sat down blamed the Government for the long delay in coming to a settlement of these questions affecting the Near East. I quite agree with him. I believe that this delay in telling the various people interested what was to be their future has been most mischievous. If only there had been some definite policy marked out soon after the Armistice the present complicated state of affairs in the Near East would not have been so difficult to solve as I fear it will be now. The noble Lord who initiated this debate very properly laid great stress upon the extravagance going on in Mesopotamia. I look at it in this way—What does it represent? We are undertaking a work in Mesopotamia which we ought not to do, though it may have been necessary in the first instance. We know that, wherever we go to set up any form of Government, we try to level up the system of Administration to our own ideas. I certainly think this time that that elaborate Administration should cease.
One welcomes the statement made in another place the day before yesterday that there is to be an Arab form of Government set up. After all, our greatest asset in the world is the reputation we have for good faith, whether as nations or as individuals. The noble Viscount who has just sat down gave a remarkable instance of it. As regards the Mussulmans of the world, it has been considerably shattered of late. We know the view has been taken that the Prime Minister's statement in January, 1919, with regard to Turkey constitutes a breach of faith, and in Palestine and Syria events are taking place which the Arabs think mean that we have again broken faith with them. The same Observation applies to Mesopotamia, unless we very shortly give them control of their own affairs. In order to get a general settlement of the vexed questions in the Near East. I believe it would have been possible for a self-denying agreement to be entered into by France and ourselves. France should quit Syria, and we should quit Mesopotamia, on the understanding that these two countries, if they require advice or officers to assist in the Administration, should apply to France in the one case and to ourselves in the other. But that has not been done, and we have to took at things as they are at the present time.
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If now we are going to invoke some form of National Assembly in Mesopotamia, I trust it may not be forgotten that all our negotiations during the war were, in the first place, conducted with the King of the Hejaz, King Hussein. Then undoubtedly, time after time, he was given assurances of Arab independence throughout Arabia and Mesopotamia. There were minor reservations as to Basra and Aden, and it was, I think, stated that Jerusalem should be regarded as an international city or something to that effect. Still it was to him that the doctrine of Arab independence was preached arid elaborated, and he and his sons gave loyal service to us during the war—absolutely loyal and perfectly faithful service—in the very darkest hours. Therefore it seems only right that if this National Assembly is set up in Baghdad so as, if possible, to arrive at the opinion of the Arabs as to what should be their form of Government in the future, it should be indicated to them that Emir Abdulla—one of King Hussein's sons—would be ready to occupy the position of President or King, which-ever it might be. I do not say that there should be pressure or persuasion, but it should be indicated to them that the whole question of Arab independence was determined by the King of the Hejaz, and it is only fair that any willingness on the part of himself or his family to share in the responsibility of the Administration should be made quite clear to this Arab Assembly. I have information that only a few months ago there was at Damascus an assembly of leading Arab notables and principal sheiks from Mesopotamia who, I believe, selected the Emir Abdulla as a possible ruler or leader of their country or their Government. It may be said that they did not represent the whole of the chief people of Mesopotamia. That is perfectly true, but it was a notable assembly of people, and it is worth while recollecting the facts I have mentioned regarding the part played by the loyal Arabs throughout the war.
I should like to mention one point which has not yet been alluded to in any discussion about Mesopotamia, and that is the position of the Baghdad railway. In years past it was the one factor which almost governed the whole question of the future control of Asia Minor right into Baghdad. I hope that the noble Earl will indicate what is the position, or the intended position, of that railway in the

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future. It is a wonderfully constructed line, and it has always appeared to me that it gives us a chance of working in hearty concord with our French Allies. It should be perfectly possible by some system of dual control, with a free port say at Alexandretta, to work jointly this railway. I have been informed, I hope incorrectly, that it has been decided to build another railway across the desert to the Persian Gulf. It seems to me to be a mad idea under present circumstances. But the Baghdad railway is a well-constructed line, and I hope the noble Earl may be able to give us some idea of what is to be its future use.
I congratulate the noble Lord on having raised this question. It is a matter on which we do want to put ourselves right in the sight of Mussulmen generally by trying to set up an Arab Administration (not expecting too much from it in the way of first-class efficiency) and showing sympathy with the idea of native administration in Mesopotamia which, though it may not come up to our high ideals, will satisfy the people of that country.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON): My Lords, I hope that the importance of this subject, which in my judgment is very great, will not be measured by the size of the audience that on a warm Friday afternoon has assembled either to hear or take part in it. Anyhow, the House has had the advantage of listening to several speeches delivered in each case by persons with expert knowledge who have placed before us very valuable information. We all listened with pleasure to Lord Goschen, who spoke with the advantage of fresh experience of Mesopotamia, and gave us some useful facts about the administration which is being conducted there. Lord Islington, if he will allow me to say so, made a well-reasoned and well-informed speech such as we had every reason to expect from him, and I do not personally' deprecate, though I was a little alarmed at, the steadily increasing number of questions with which he bombarded me for the best part of an hour. It really made me feel as if I were a witness in the box under the examination of a very pertinacious and very able King's Counsel. I will do my best to answer his questions.
There is one part of his speech, however, in which I do not conceive it to be any part
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of my duty to follow him, and that was the part in which, having passed away from the subject of Mesopotamia, he proceeded in a wild canter over the economic field to deliver to us his personal views on the Ministry of Transport, the impoverishment of hospitals, the decline and fall of the Imperial Institute, and the difficulty which he and a good many others, including myself, find in living at our country houses. As he delivered this interesting disquisition I confess I thought the connection with the subject of Mesopotamia, was a little remote, and he must not, therefore, accuse me of incivility if I do not touch on that portion of his remarks. With the sound maxims with which he ended his observations I am in general agreement, but again it does not seem to be necessary for me to allude to them.
What your Lordships will expect me to do is to address myself closely to the subject-matter of the Questions on the Paper, and my task, although it is by no means an easy one, is rendered easier by the fact that there was a discussion, to which allusion has been made, in another place two days ago. On that occasion there was raised a broad issue of policy—the general question as to whether we are wise or not, right or not, in remaining in Mesopotamia, and what is the nature of our general responsibilities there. That discussion—although we are supposed here not to know what happens in another place, and not to allude to it—is one which I expect every one of your Lordships has read, and at any rate it dispenses me from the necessity of saying anything on the larger aspect of the case.
I turn to the specific issues raised in the debate by the various speakers who have addressed the House. Upon one point, to start with, I should like to be perfectly explicit. That is as to the intentions which have animated His Majesty's Government throughout—I mean the intentions as to the character and form which the future administration of Mesopotamia, if it were committed to our hands, should take. Lord Lamington, who spoke last, alluded to the first occasion on which the nature of these intentions was made clear. That was in the course of 1915, in the second year of the war, when we entered into engagements with King Hussein of the Hedjaz. On that occasion we laid it down that the British Government were prepared to recognise and support the independence

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of the Arabs within the territories concerned, subject to certain exceptions specified by King Hussein in previous comunications from him. The reservations, I think, were rather wider than the noble Lord appeared to remember in his remarks, because we laid it down that for the vilayets of Baghdad and Basra special measures of administrative control would be required to secure those territories from foreign aggression, to promote the welfare of the local population, and to safeguard our mutual economic interests. That was the first occasion on which our ideas as to the future administration of these territories, if wrested them from the yoke of the Turk, were laid down.
The second occasion was when we had reluctantly, as everybody knows, but compulsorily advanced to Baghdad and taken possession of that city. A Proclamation was issued, drawn up by Sir Mark Sykes and myself—I need hardly ray that the greater part of it was due to Sir Mark Sykes—in March, 1917, in which we stated—
"It is the hope of the British Government that the people of Baghdad shall flourish and enjoy their wealth and substance under institutions which are in consonance with their sacred laws and racial ideals. It is the hope and desire of the British people and the nations in alliance with them, that the Arab race may rise once more to greatness and renown among the peoples of the earth. … Therefore I am commanded to invite you through your nobles, and elders, and representatives, to participate in the management of your civil affairs in collaboration with the political representatives of Great Britain who accompany the British Army, so that you may be united with your kinsmen in north, east, south, and west in realising the aspirations of your race."
LORD LAMINGTON: That was in 1917.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: In March, 1917, and it is clear from this that although the pronouncement was directly addressed to the people of Baghdad it equally applied to the larger unit of the Arab population of Mesopotamia. The third announcement was a joint Proclamation issued by the French and ourselves in November, 1918. I think the noble Lord quoted from it, and it is so familiar to your Lordships that it is, perhaps, unnecessary for me to read it out again this afternoon. Next I may mention, because the charge has been made by implication, if not directly this afternoon, that our recent Proclamations have been
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precipitated by the pressure of public opinion— a charge for which there is absolutely no foundation—that as far back as the autumn of 1918, when the Armistice had been concluded and the war was drawing to a close, His Majesty's Government had to consider here the conditions under which they would go into the Peace Conference at Paris.
As is probably well known, the business of the Middle East, as it is commonly called, has been conducted on behalf of the Cabinet during the past three or four years by a body commonly called the Eastern Committee, over which I have had, the honour to preside and in which the various Departments concerned are represented. Before we went to Paris that Committee, on which. were represented the Foreign Office, India Office, War Office, Admiralty, in fact every Department concerned, drew up a series of propositions which were, so to speak, to be the dossier, the instructions upon which our representatives should work at Paris. Of course, it was not anticipated at that date that the conclusion of the Turkish Peace Treaty would be so long postponed. What did the Government say on the subject of Mesopotamia? There should be no annexation of any of these territories by Great Britain. It is the object of Ms Majesty's Government to set up an Arab Government or Governments of the liberated areas, and not to impose upon the populations any Government which is not acceptable to them. Whether there should be a single Arab State or a number of Arab States in these, areas is a matter upon which educated native opinion in the areas affected is now being consulted. Whether a single Arab State or a number of them be set up in these areas the support and protection of a great European Power will probably be found indispensable. If the inhabitants of these areas, acting upon the general principle of self-determination, express a desire that Great Britain should fill this rôle, the interests of the native populations, the part taken in their recovery from Turkish misrule by the Armies of Great Britain and India, and the security of the Indian Empire require that that responsibility should be accepted by Great Britain.
Now, those were the principles, not, as I say, of recent discovery or enunciation, upon which we have acted throughout.

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But my noble friend comes here this afternoon and says, However excellent your principles, you have not acted upon them in practice; and he practically made the charge in his speech that our actions were inconsistent with our principles, and that a system of government and administration has been put in operation in Mesopotamia during the last three or four years which he even went so far as to describe as indistinguishable from the Crown Colony system. Let me indicate in a few sentences to your Lordships the kind of conditions which our men, military and civil, had to face when they entered the country and when they had to set up some kind of Administration. In the first place, as our Army advanced the retreating Turks did everything they could to embarrass the Army of Occupation. All the civil officials, who were without exception Turks, were withdrawn. Some ran away and others were forcibly withdrawn, and the whole of the records were destroyed at the same time. We entered into a country in which we found no such thing as corporate national life in existence. There was no form of unity, no sense of public spirit, and practically no authority; and meanwhile, after the complete dissolution and disappearance of the Turkish forces, bands of marauders raided the country from end to end.
In consequerce the advancing British forces had to improvise administration as they went along. They had to build in many parts of the country embankments to protect the towns, the villages, the roads and canals, and the produce. As everybody knows, Mesopotamia is a country where what at one time is a desert is, when the rains have fallen, or the banks of the canals have broken, a swamp, and the amount of labour and superintendence devoted to preparing the country for the elementary process of agriculture was very great indeed. All the disputes that occurred between different sections of the populations came up for settlement, and had to be settled by British officers. The children had to be educated. The Turkish system, if it ever existed, had disappeared. The necessities of life had to be distributed, and we found hardly an Arab, owing to the sterilising influence of Turkish administration, capable of exercising executive authority. Not a single Arab in the country was able to be put in any position of respor sibility or importance; and not only was this a case of incapacity on the part of the native peoples of whom I am speaking, but it was
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a case of disinclination and refusal. Anybody who knows the mentality of Oriental peoples will at once appreciate that they were in their minds thinking of what was likely to happen. They would not come forward to help us, and their reasoning was this. "Supposing we hold aloof now and the British remain here, they are generous and will forgive us. On the other hand, if we throw ourselves into their cause now and the Turks come back, we shall suffer terrible retribution." That is what happened in the case of Kut, as anybody knows who has read the story of the executions inflicted by the Turkish authorities upon the wretched people of Kut after our people were compelled to evacuate that place. That was the fear in the minds of the local population. You can now understand how it was that whatever the instructions of the Government at home, whatever the sympathies of our officers, they were compelled in this vacuum to set up some form of Administration. What did they do? They set up that form of Administration to which experience had habituated them. They came for the most part from India, and they set up a form which was very like the Indian Administration. What had you to say against that? The noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, paid a very just tribute, if he will allow me to say so, to the unselfish devotion of these men working under conditions the difficulty of which cannot be exaggerated, and working for that country as if they were working for their homes in this land. That service cannot be exaggerated, and the utmost that can be said against it, whether you call it an Indian system or a Crown Colony system, is that the system is too efficient and too perfect. I think very likely that is the case; very likely they went too far.
Let me give you one illustration of their efficiency. Every noble Lord who has talked to-night, particularly when he was dealing with the question of troops, has said, "What a scandal it is to keep all these troops in a country where there are only two million people." Such was the ability and industry of these officials whose work has been so much attacked, that they succeeded in the time which I have described in taking what, I imagine, is the first census of the country that has taken place for hundreds, and very likely thousands, of years. Whether it was the result of their beneficent labours or not, anyhow they succeeded in showing us the result that the population of Meso-

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potantia is 2,850,000. Let that at least be said to their credit. So much for the conditions.
I have not, I hope, offered an apology. I have stated facts as to the conditions under which British administration was compelled to start in that country. Now I turn to the present constitutional position, about which a good deal has been said. It is as follows. In the Draft Peace Treaty with Turkey the independence of Mesopotama is provided for under the advice and assistance of a Mandatory, and when we met at San Remo a few weeks ago that Mandate—in accordance with the precedent set at Paris in connection with the Colonies that had been wrested from Germany—was conferred by a unanimous vote of the Allied Powers upon Great Britain. It is quite a mistake to suppose, as was contended in the House of Commons the other day and answered by the Prime Minister, that under the Covenant of the League, or under any instrument, the gift of the Mandate rests with the League of Nations. It does not do so. It rests with the Powers who have conquered the territories which it then falls to them to distribute, and it was in these circumstances that the Mandate for Palestine and Mesopotamia was conferred upon and accepted by us, and that the Mandate for Syria was conferred upon and accepted by France.
What is the next step? The draft Mandate is then drawn up. We, as the party principally concerned, have been engaged in drawing it up ourselves. We then submit to the Great Powers who are interested in the matter, and when a provisional draft Mandate in this way has been drawn up we take it to the Council of the League of Nations. We have even gone in excess of what was demanded from us by the Covenant of the League. If you look at Article 22 of the Covenant of the League you will find that reference to the League of Nations is not obligatory. The matter may be determined by agreement among the members of the League. Lord Robert Cecil in a letter to The Times this morning is quite wrong in suggesting that the use of the phrase "members of the League" in the context means the Assembly of the League. If you look carefully at the Article you will see it does not. But whether we were compelled or not to go to the Council of the League of Nations, we decided at once and unhestitatingly
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to do so, and the draft Mandate now being drawn up, when it has been shown to and has, I hope, been approved by our Allies, will then go to the League of Nations for examination, criticism, and, I hope, of course, for approval by them. Under this draft Mandate, Article I provides for the framing of an organic law. An organic law is really a synonym for the future constitution of the country and the phrase employed is as follow.—
"This organic law shall be framed in consultation with the native authorities, and shall take account of the rights, interests, and wishes of all populations inhabiting a mandated territory."
The last stage in this history of constitutional progress to which I need refer is the Proclamation which was read out in another place before the debate a few days ago. This Proclamation my noble friend Lord Islington said was precipitate, and had been suddenly extracted from us by the pressure of public opinion and by writings in the Press. Believe me, he is entirely wrong This Proclamation has been in existence for weeks. It was drawn up many weeks ago by the Eastern Committee over which I presided, and the only reasons why it had not been issued earlier were these. In the first place, there was some difficulty in finding time, in the congested state of public business, to get that consideration, discussion, and acceptance by the Cabinet which were necessary. In the second place, Sir Percy Cox was leaving Persia on his return home and was expected at Baghdad. We desired to consult him before we issued a Proclamation at Baghdad which would so closely affect him in the future. Those are, I hope my noble friend will believe me, the sole reasons why the Proclamation was only issued at the date at which it was issued.
One word as to the interim steps that have been taken, about which some questions have been asked. Although a good deal of disparagement has been thrown upon the so-called Crown Colonies administration in the interval, nobody has paused to take note of the fact that every possible effort has been made to interest, to consult, and to galvanise into political activity the inhabitants of the country itself. Municipal councils have been set up where they did not exist in all the principal cities. Representative divisional councils have been started in the various provincial areas, and councils of notables, where it was not

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possible to get any other form of representative institution, have been started. During the last half year a Committee presided over by a very capable Indian official who was lent to us from Eyppt, Sir Edgar Bonham-Carter, has been considering how these representative institutions could be developed to form the nucleus of future self-government, and the Report of this Committee, which also has been in existence and in print for months, contains recommendations upon which we acted in the Proclamation to which I have referred. We then decided, in the interim period before the organic law to be drafted by the Councils of the League of Nations comes into operation, to set up an Arab Council or Cabinet, whichever you like to call it, the majority of whose members will be natives (Arabs), under an Arab President, and further to summon a native Representative Assembly to assist Sir Percy Cox or the head of the Administration, whoever he may be, in drawing up the organic law which it will presently be our duty to frame. So much for what we have attempted to do in the interim.
My noble friend Lord Islington threw out a suggestion well worthy of consideration. If I quite accurately caught what he said on this point, he stated that it might be desirable to associate well-experienced persons with Sir Percy Cox in drawing up the future Constitution. I think that very likely will be the case. I would not like to pronounce too definitely at this moment whether it would be desirable to send out competent persons front here to assist him there, or to bring persons from there to England to advise us here. There may be a good deal to be said on both sides. In any case your Lordships may rely upon it that every possible facility for consultation—I am not speaking of consultation merely with British or Indian officials, but consultation with representative Arab opinion—will be given before the final organic law is set up. But the House must remember that until the Peace Treaty is signed Mesopotamia is still technically a part of the Ottoman Empire under military occupation, and that, until the Peace Treaty is signed, the new organisation of the State cannot, of course, come into actual being.
Thus, I hope I have shown; you in this portion of my remarks that His Majesty's Government have never departed—certainly never consciously departed—from the principles which they laid down in the
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early stages of the war; that the transitional period to which I have referred has been due to no departure on their part from those principles, but has been due to the unfortunate, the deplorable delays that have occurred in negotiating the Turkish Peace Treaty; that we have no intention of prolonging, still less of perpetuating, this period of temporary administration; that all ideas such as those which Lord Islington seems to fear, of stereotyping a form of Administration which shall not be in consonance with the ideals or aspirations of the people, are equally foreign to our mind; and that it is our real policy to set up some form of self-government which shall be acceptable, with our assistance, to the people themselves.
You will not expect me to expatiate upon the possible forms which that administration might take. The noble Lord, Lord Sydenham, pointed to the example of the Malay Federated States, one of the most successful instances of semi-native, semiBritish—more native than British—administration in the world. In another part of his speech he, and Lord Lamington I think, also suggested that you might have a single Ruler, either for the whole of these areas or for portions of them. That is not an idea to which we have ever given a negative—far from it. Indeed, in the earlier days, I might tell my noble friend— by the early days I mean two or three years agob—we did actually consult the people of Mesopotamia, so far as we could, as to whether they were disposed to accept a member of the Sherifian family, and they had every opportunity on that occasion of saying "Yes," and, indeed, of indicating a man of their choice, Abdulla or another. But they did not take it. Whether they have changed their opinion or not in the interval I do not know. I imagine that no announcement would be more welcome to us than if we could get a genuine and a general expression of opinion in favour, let us say, of a particular system, or even of a particular Ruler.
As regards the proceedings at Damascus, my noble friend Lord Lamington, I think, has not been quite correctly informed. The body at Damascus which nominated, without his knowledge, the Emir Abdulla to the Kingship of Mesopotamia was a body of a very limited number of persons, only between twenty and thirty in number, Baghdadis who had been fighting with the

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Syrian armies in the course of the war away from their country, and who, although they were, I dare say, important persons, had no sort of representative authority to act for Mesopotamia itself. I only say that in passing to correct an observation that fell from the noble Lord.
So much in reply to the questions that were put to me as to what we had been doing and what we are doing now. I now turn to the other Questions on the Paper, questions of rather greater detail, which were put by my noble friend Lord Islington. The first is the number of officers now engaged in the Civil Administration, also the number of troops at present stationed in Mesopotamia, British and Indian. The number of officers, according to the latest returns which I have, for March of this year, is as follows:—A total of 424, of whom it is fair to inform your Lordship that as many as 62 are medical officers, 54 irrigation and agriculture, 29 gendarmerie, 43 post, telegraphs, and public works, 29 judicial and police. And here let me say, in passing—because it arises at this point—with regard to armed forces, I do not suppose anything would be more welcome to us than the idea that in the future we should be able to constitute an armed force of the inhabitants of the country that is able to defend its own frontiers. So far as I can gather, the omens are at present not very favourable. The Arabs are a people not habituated to modern methods of military organisations. Endeavours have been and are being made to raise levies in the country—I am not certain that they have been very successful, but certainly that ground will be explored to the uttermost, not merely because it is a part of the scheme of self-government which we have in view, but because of the obvious relief which it would afford to ourselves.
In addition to the figures which I have given there is an administrative staff composed almost entirely of natives of the country—these will be, of course, in subordinate offices with the assistance of a few Englishmen and Indian Mahomedans. The total of these is 316, of whom approximately 30 are Englishmen. Of the remainder the great majority are Mesopotamians, a few only are Indians, the proportion of Mesopotarnians to Indians being about 20 to 1. We have not got accurate figures of the old Turkish admini-
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stration staff which this body that I have been speaking about has superseded, but, so far as we can judge, their numbers greatly exceeded those which we have been compelled to employ, while, as to the standard of efficiency, I do not think I need in your Lordships' House institute any comparison.
LORD ISLINGTON: Have you the Turkish cost?
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: No, I am afraid I have not got that. Every effort has been made, as I am sure you will see, to enlist the inhabitants of the country, but there does remain, I must once again regretfully inform your Lordships, the melancholy fact that we have hardly found a single Arab capable of holding government office of any importance. Of course, as we go ahead and as soon as the régime of the mandate is introduced, the number of British officers in the country will be reduced, and we shall then hope to attract to the country men like those to whom I was referring just now—Mesopotamians who have gone outside and have been serving in Syria and elsewhere, but who, under the new conditions, we hope will return to their country.
Now as to troops—the number of troops at present stationed in Mesopotamia, including North-west Persia. The number is as follows:—13,500 British, and 66,000 Indians. Here two questions were put to me, to which I will endeavour to give a reply. The first was, Why are any troops in North-west Persia required? I think the answer to that is very simple. I have not time to give a long historical retrospect of the circumstances in which, in the early days of the war, Persia being in a state of extreme disorder, being overrun by German agents, her frontiers being crossed in the North-West by the Turks, and threatened by the Germans, the position at Teheran being unstable to a degree, the dynasty being at stake, the menace to Afghanistan and India, which lie beyond, being great, British forces were compelled to enter and to introduce a certain amount of stability in the country. It was in these circumstances to shut the North-western door of Persia that we were compelled to advance our troops from the Baghdad frontier in the direction of Kazvin and the Caspian; and they are there now, not because we have any a priori desire to keep troops

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in Persia—no one would wish to do anything of the sort—but because their disappearance would simply open that door to an invasion, partly of Turks and partly of Bolshevists, which would in all probability bring the Persian Government very quickly to the ground, which would destroy almost in a breath the whole of the policy which we have been building up of agreement with Persia during the last two or three years, and which might re-act with a very serious menace upon the security of Mesopotamia itself. That is why we are there.
Then the noble Lord asked, What about Kurdistan? And he drew an analogy, which I congratulate myself upon having drawn before, between the position in Kurdistan and the highlands on the Indian Frontier. Like him I do not for a moment want to extend our garrisons or influence or activities into the mountains of Kurdistan. We would like to remain in the plains; but, of course, there are many difficulties, and the principal difficulties are two in number. The first is that Kurdistan extends right down to the frontier road that runs from Baghdad towards Kermanshah in Persia, and as long as you are forced, for the reasons I have mentioned, to maintain this line of military connection, so long have you to protect it on the North. The other reason is a rather curious one. When we were talking at the Inter-Allied Conference about the future of Kurdistan, we all of us expressed the strongest desire to have nothing whatever to do with it and to sever the mountain districts of Southern Kurdistan from the river areas. But who was it protested? It was the Kurds themselves. They said, "We have been accustomed all our lives to be treated for administrative and other purposes as part of the Mosul vilayet. If you cut us from the Mosul vilayet you cut us off from our markets and our connections; you leave us to fight and squabble with each other, which we shall certainly do; and the only guarantee we have for our tranquillity is that you should continue to keep us in the Mosul vilayet as in the past." It was those considerations only which induced us to retain even a provisional and rather precarious connection with that country. Among the most difficult problems we shall have to solve in the future your Lordships will believe me when I say that of Kurdistan is not the least difficult or the least anxious.
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In addition to the numbers I have given, it is only fair to inform you of the situation created on the one hand by the existence in Mesopotamia of large numbers of prisoners of war, and on the other hand of the unfortunate Assyrian Christians, the refugees, who were hurled out of their homes in the mountains in the North and driven down to Bakuba in the Baghdad area where they are living under our protection. We are now trying to repatriate them to their homes. There are still at this moment under our charge 15,000 prisoners of war not yet repatriated and 27,500 refugees whom we have not been able to return to their homes, and four battalions of soldiers are required to look after those people. We hear so much about the British and the Indian garrisons kept in that country, and the cost of keeping them; but they are retained in one of the most humanitarian activities that you can imagine, and I am certain that on this score alone there is not a member of your Lordships' House who would deprecate the presence of our soldiers required for that purpose.
I think one noble Lord asked about the Air Force, and undoubtedly it is our hope in the future that one of the principal methods by which the cost and the extent of our garrisons can be reduced will be by the substitution of air forces holding the country in the very much simpler and less claborate manner which is possible to them. The Royal Air Force personnel in Mesopotamia at the present time is as follows: Officers, 90; other ranks, 620; civil subordinates, camp folk wers, etc., 313; total, 1,023.
I pass next to question Number 3— the expenditure on the British Exchequer entailed by our present occupation of the country. The provision in the Army Estimates for the current year is £21,500,000. This covers the charges under all heads of estimates, excluding pensions. No contribution is made by the Civil Administration to the cost of the garrison. The cost of the camp I named at Bakuba, and of the prisoners of war, is, of course, an aftermath of war expenditure, and no part of the cost of the upkeep of the Forces in Mesopotamia. As regards the Air Force in the future, one of our great air experts, Sir John Salmond, has lately been on a tour of inspection in Mesopotamia in connection with the proposed transference of military duties from the Army to the Air Force.

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We are now awaiting his Report. His visit was one of inspection only, and no expenditure has been incurred on sites for aerodromes or for works or buildings.
Now as to the expenses of Civil Administration, about which I think something was said. It may be of interest to give the figures of the surplus of receipts over expenditure according to the figures we have available for the years 1915 to 1920. Surplus, 1915–16, £130,000; 1916–17, £270,000; 1917–18, £100,000; 1918–19, £189,000; 1919–20, £244,800—total, just short of £1,000,000. This really, if I may say so, is a good record for a new Administration set up during a period of military occupation and, I think reflects very great credit on the Civil authorities in Mesopotamia. As for the year 1920–21 the Budget figures are not yet available, but the estimated receipts show a surplus of £1,000,000 over the receipts for 1919–20.
The last Question is, Under which Department of Government the country is now being and will be administered. Under the conditions which I have described the supreme authority in Mesopotamia is still the General Officer Commanding, because the country is in military occupation, and he is under the orders of the War Office at home. The Civil Administration is supervised by a Civil Commissioner, a very distinguished Indian official, who is responsible to the General Officer Commanding and who is supervised by the India Office. The noble Lord, Lord Islington, I think it was, spoke strongly about the necessity for unity of control here. I agree with him. The number of Departments that are somehow or other involved in the administration of Mesopotamia is necessarily very great, and we have endeavoured to provide for the time being for the unification which he rightly demands by the composition and meetings of that Eastern Committee to which I referred. During the time I presided over it we had something over 120 meetings at which the representatives of all the, Departments were present. I hesitate to say how many hours I personally and my colleagues devoted to the task; and I hope you will believe me that, although on paper it is easy to make out a cast, about over-lapping jurisdictions and conflicting functions, this Committee has operated very well, and, I think very successfully, in reconciling the various differences and paving the way to greater unity later.
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As regards the form that the future Administration should take, I cannot speak with any definite authority, because it is one of those matters which are still under the consideration of the Government, and upon which a final decision has not yet been taken; but I do find among ourselves, just as I find among the public who have a right to speak on the matter, a general opinion that it will be advisable, if it be found possible, to constitute or create some kind of special Department for dealing with those countries of the Middle East. You can group them together in a manner which does suggest, and indeed constitute, a certain sort of unity. They will be very much inter-twined with each other in the future—the countries from Egypt on the West right away to Mesopotamia and Persia on the East—and I think we all of us fed very strongly that to leave them under the æus of different Departments in this country is not a thing that can permanently be defended or entertained. I hope, therefore, that in some form or another a new Department, the constitution of which it would be premature for me to discuss, will emerge. I hope that there will be associated with it what, to me at any rate, appears an absolutely vital necessity—namely, a new Service for providing the men who are to administer these areas, and I think it will be found in practice that you will still want at home some coordinating body or Committee, rather like that which I have described, in order to produce unity of effort in this country.
Now, my Lords, I wonder if I have answered all—I have done my best to answer all—of the Questions that were put by the noble Lords who have preceded me. One observation only have I still to answer, and that was an observation which fell from my noble friend Lord Lamington. If I could say straight away that at a given date we should reduce our expenditure in Mesopotamia, our garrisons in Mesopotamia, and our civil staff in Mesopotamia by a half or three-quarters, no one would more gladly say it than myself, but we have to look facts in the face and take account of the responsibility we have assumed. My noble friend Lord Lamington went so far as to ask, Could we not quit the country? Now, he is an old Eastern authority and he has travelled, if not in Mesopotamia, in surrounding countries, and I appeal to him to answer me when. I say that in the existing circumstances it is absolutely impossible now, straight away

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in the immediate future, to quit. You cannot quit, because it is an obligation of honour, of duty, and, much more than that, of expediency, for the present at any rate, to remain.
If we retired at the moment, what would happen? I wonder if my noble friend has kept fully in touch with the events that are happening in that part of the world. Somebody alluded to the recent attack on Tel Afar. The fact is that at the present moment, owing to all those feelings which one noble Lord described as the ferment which is going on in the Eastern world, Mesopotamia is surrounded by a sea of unrest, anarchy, almost of chaos. You have the Syrians struggling for their newly-won independence in the North-west; you have the Kurds in the mountains on the North uncertain whether to remain under, or to break away from, the Ottoman Empire of the future; you have the extreme Nationalist party in Mesopotamia fighting for ideals which, at any rate at present, it is impossible to realise; you have wandering Arab tribes carrying on their traditional warfare; and, in the centre of all this, lies, like a little island of relative peace and security, the country administered by those splendid men whose conduct of affairs has been denounced to us to-night as Crown Colony Government. Well, I say it would be madness, it would be a derogation of our duty and honour, if we threw that away. I hope we shall get out of it. I hope we shall get out of it before very long. But at this moment to throw up the sponge, to beat a retreat, would be an act of which I think we should have every reason to be ashamed.
And we have had experience of it. Our people, so full of sentimental desire to do the right by native populations in other parts of the world, have before now retired in circumstances not dissimilar from these. We went out of the Transvaal and out of the Sudan, and what had we to do? We had to cut our way back into both at an enormous expenditure of life and of money. And if we went out of Mesopotamia now there is not a man in this Chamber who does not know perfectly well that in a few years' time, whatever our desires or intentions, we should have to go back. Therefore I think I do not err in asking your agreement at least with this proposition, that you cannot expect us at this stage to give up for good and all the
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responsibilities which we have assumed. I hope the assurances which I have given your Lordships will have convinced you that the principles upon which we are acting are the same now as they were at the beginning of the war, that we have not consciously deviated from them at any stage, and that we are resolutely determined by every means in our power to carry them into practice.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, with regard to the noble Earl's remarks upon my suggestion that we might quit the country, I should like to say that I did not mean that we should do so until we had set up an Arab Administration. What I complained of was that this was not set up sooner.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I desire to make a few observations in reply to the statement which the noble Earl has made in answer to the Questions put to him by Lord Islington. I am quite sure that both my noble friend and the House generally will be grateful to the noble Earl for having made so fall and so careful an answer with a view of abating, even if he could not entirely remove, the feeling of uneasiness which, as he very well knows both from what was said here and what was said in another place, has affected a large number of people in this country on the question of Mesopotamia, owing to the conviction, which I think is a general one, that somehow or other—it may be by a stroke of fate or it may be through a misapprehension of what ought to have been done at a particular moment—we have got far more deeply involved in the affairs of that country than was believed to be possible and certainly than was intended when we first went there.
It so happens that I was the Minister primarily responsible for our going to Mesopotamia at all. The attack on Basra and the defence of the oilfields was the suggestion of the India Office in the first months of the war, and at that time I was Secretary of State for India. I do not believe that then—we all had a great many other things to think of—the exact future of Mesopotamia, in all the uncertainties of the war, was ever defined. One hope, I think, was entertained by a number of people in India, at any rate by some members of the Government of India, a hope which I am glad to say has not been realised and I conceive never will be realised—namely, that

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Mesopotamia might become thoroughly Indianised by the planting there of military colonies similar to those which have been placed, as we all know, in the Punjab. It was hoped by some people in India that Mesopotamia, or at any rate the vilayet of Basra, might become an annex of the Indian Government. That, as I thought at the time, was a complete misconception of what was possible, and I am glad to know that there is no prospect—it is made quite clear by what the noble Earl has said—of any such attempt being made.
The noble Earl was, perhaps, in one sense somewhat hard upon those who have uttered criticisms on the transitional administration. I am quite sure that neither Lord Islington nor Lord Lamington, or any of the other speakers, meant to say anything in depreciation of the work or efforts of the officers who have been carrying on the administration there. All they meant, I take it, was that a method of administration, drawn up on too purely Indian or Colonial lines, was a dangerous beginning to the setting up of a Government to be conducted by the people themselves. In particular I am glad to mention Sir Percy Cox, with whom I have been associated and to know that his services are likely to be at the disposal of the Government for some time.
I am quite sure the noble Earl will not have satisfied the House and public opinion regarding the future, particularly on the point of the military prospects there. It is a very formidable fact that there should be upwards of 13,000 British troops and nearly 70,000 Indian troops there at this moment, with no immediate prospect, as your Lordships will note—if there was a prospect the noble Earl would have announced it—of any substantial reduction in that number. That is a grave fact, and it is one which it is impossible for us to regard without continued feelings of un-uneasiness, partly no doubt on account of the terrific cost of maintaining such a garrison in a country with which, after all is said and done, our immediate connection is bound to be comparatively remote. There is also a feeling, with this wide frontier, including the vilayet of Mosul, the administration of which will be indefinitely entitled to claim, I think the words are, "support and protection," that in the future we may run the risk of having to maintain for an unknown period a considerable force to carry out that protection, with the possibility of the occurrence of
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"incidents," as they are called, which may at any time make it necessary greatly to strengthen such a force. That is a prospect which it is impossible to regard without great dismay, and I cannot think that those who are responsible for the Government of India, and in particular for the Indian Army, will regard with anything but deep uneasiness the propect of having to maintain what, in the Indian sense, is a complete Army commanded by an Arms Commander for an indefinite period in those regions.
We come back to the fact as to whether it was necessary for us to occupy the whole of this vast territory, and whether we are wise in accepting responsibility for that territory in the future. Lord Goschen was correct, so far as my knowledge goes, in saying that the choice was between retaining a hold or influence over one vilayet or over three; that it was not possible, for geographical and strategical reasons, to say that we will make ourselves responsible for the vilayets of Basra and Baghdad and not for that of Mosul; that if the area of responsibility was to be reduced it must be reduced to responsibility over the vilayet of Basra up to Amara, and that we should refuse to take any responsibility beyond that. I fully agree that to retire now would be a matter of great moral difficulty, but, as I have said in the past, I often wish that we had never made ourselves responsible for the permanent
occupation of Baghdad. The noble Earl will remember that Lord Kitchener was one of those who was in favour of advancing to Baghdad and withdrawing at once—a brief occupation, followed by a withdrawal—at the time the advance to Baghdad was first contemplated. There were and are various military opinions held in different directions on that subject, but it certainly was one of the foreseen objections to the continued occupation of Baghdad that it would almost necessarily involve a considerable further advance, probably including the whole vilayet of Mosul.
I cannot help feeling that in undertaking the responsibility for the whole of this vast area we are doing too much. After all, the time is past when the people of this country will be prepared to play the fairy godmother to all undeveloped parts of the world, and to hold themselves responsible for introducing a higher standard of administration in uncivilised countries. We simply cannot afford it. We have not got, and no possible system of taxation that can be devised will enable us to get,

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sufficient revenue to meet the needs of this country at home. There will be, I am certain, continued discontent if, even with the high objects and lofty ideals which the noble Earl stated towards the close of his speech, we are compelled to no on indulging in a heavy military expenditure in Mesopotamia; and the noble Earl has not told us —naturally he could not venture to prophesy on such a subject—as to when there will be a real prospect of leaving that country, not merely to police itself, but to defend itself against possible aggression along its tremendously extended frontier.
We all heard with great interest the concluding observation of the noble Earl about the possible creation, not merely of a new Department, but of a new service to find men to take their part in the Middle Eastern countries—a Department which, as I understand, would be equally independent of the India Office, the Foreign Office, and the Colonial Office. I confess that I foresee some difficulty in that regard, for this reason—that there may be some fear that countries such as Mesopotamia and Arabia, and conceivably also in the possible future Egypt, or at any rate the first two, over which we obtain through the action of the League of Nations not exactly an authority but the privilege of helping in the administration, may look with a certain suspicion, as possibly involving an undue degree of control, on the creation of a special British Service from which men are to be collected to fill posts in those countries. I can fancy that there might be some alarm lest the existence of such a service might almost postulate the undue creation of advisory posts, which in the minds of the inhabitants or the Governments of those countries might imply something approaching absolute control. That, however, is a matter against which it may be possible to guard, and I can well believe that His Majesty's Government may not find it possible in the future to draw even upon that presumably inexhaustible reservoir, the Indian Service, for all the men required for these new posts.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT MILNER): My Lords, I will not stand between the noble Lord, Lord Islington, and the House for more than one or two minutes. I only rise because I think the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, has taken rather too pessimistic a view of the early prospect of a
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reduction of expenditure and a reduction of the force in the country which we are discussing.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am very glad if I have.
VISCOUNT MILNER: I will tell him the reasons why I think he is rather pessimistic. The large military force at present in Mesopotamia is always set down to Mesopotamia itself. I do not think we can look at the position from that narrow point of view. As a matter of fact, if you take the whole of our forces at present available in the Middle East, which is the centre of almost universal disturbance at the present moment, they are very far from being in excess of what we should in any case be obliged to keep up until not only peace with Turkey had been signed, but something like peace actually existed in those regions. It is not Mesopotamia, or the amount of trouble which arises in Mesopotamia itself, which is responsible for the necessity of keeping up these large forces. It is the condition of warfare or something next to warfare which is existing all around, and the condition of Turkey in Asia, the condition of Syria, and the condition of Persia. To none of these matters could we afford to be indifferent, even if we were not in Mesopotamia, or if, instead of occupying Mesopotamia up to Mosul, we only occupied it at Basra and the region immediately around Basra. I can see no reason why, the moment peace is really established in the surrounding regions, the mere fact of maintaining order in Mesopotamia should put any exceptional strain upon our military resources. The noble Marquess, I think, takes the view that a mistake was made in extending our authority as far as Baghdad or beyond it. My own belief is that if we are in Mesopotamia at all it will be found to be easier to control the whole of the country, including Mosul, than it would be merely to hold on to the edge of it at Basra. I believe the noble Lord who spoke earlier in the debate was right in saying that, if we are there at all, we cannot afford to occupy a country much less than that which includes the Mosul vilayet.
My main object in rising was to beg your Lordships, in considering the question of the future burden of Mesopotamia, not to be affected by the circumstances of the immediate moment. I recollect so well discussions very much of the same character before, when we have first been

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drawn into responsibility for some of these backward Eastern countries which at the time when we entered them were in a very depressed or even bankrupt condition. For years everybody interested in public life in this country heard a great deal about the burden which was thrown upon it by its adventure in Egypt. Whether that was a wise policy or not, I am not discussing now. The point I want to make is that nobody could believe 30 years ago that Egypt was, from the economic and financial point of view, ever going to be anything but a burden and failure. With regard to the Sudan the predictions were even worse. It was never going to be anything but a ruinous enterprise for us. To-day Egypt, as we all know, is one of the most prosperous countries in the world, and though the main benefit of the immense economic advance of that country goes to its people, yet the indirect benefit to us in our increased trade with Egypt is very great indeed. It is exactly the same with regard to the Sudan, though there we have not got so far along the road yet. That country also is not only going to be very much more prosperous than it has ever been, but we are going indirectly to derive great benefit from what we have done for it, I believe that precisely the same will be the case in regard to Mesopotamia if we only give time.
In the instance which I have quoted arguments were derived about the intolerable financial burden that we were undertaking from the inevitable expenses of the first years of occupation before things are got into order. Precisely the same is the case with respect to Mesopotamia to-day. We are told that this country can never afford to spend £30,000,000 or £40,00,000 a year on Mesopotamia. Of course it cannot. It is not spending that on Mesopotamia now. It is spending £30,000,000 or £40,000,000 on the end of the war. The noble Lord who introduced this Motion spoke of the war having been ended for two or more years. Certainly our great war in Europe has ended for a year and a-half, but war in the East has not ended yet. We cannot draw any inference as to the future cost of the Army in Mesopotamia from the conditions of the present time. We might draw some inferences from the present expenditure on defending the Sudan, a country much larger and in many of its parts much more inaccessible, a country which has around it barbarous
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tribes and a greater number of difficult frontiers than Mesopotamia ever will have. The expense of defending the Sudan to-day is between £1,000,000 and £2,000,000. I cannot see why a year or two hence the expenditure upon defending Mesopotamia should be any more than that. I may be wrong.
I desire to make it clear that in my view, and I think in that of His Majesty's Government, the fact that we have at present this large force in Mesopotamia must not be regarded as any criterion of the force that will ultimately be required; and so far from anticipating that that large force will have to be in maintained there an long time, I think, given peace, that an enormous reduction of it possible very soon indeed. But if there is not going to be peace in the East a large Army, or a considerable Army, will have to be maintained somewhere there. It would not, however, be fair to set that necessity down to the difficulty of permanently defending Mesopotamia.
LORD ISLINGTON: My Lords, with the leave of the House I desire to offer my best thanks to my noble friend for the very courteous and ample manner in which he has answered the, I am afraid, too numerous questions which I put to him in the course of my speech. I would like, if I may, to say in conclusion that I cannot help regarding with profound disappointment the fact that neither my noble friend nor the noble Viscount who has just spoken found himself in a position to offer any hope in the early future of a reduction of the garrison in Mesopotamia with a consequent reduction in the cost to the taxpayer in this country. That disappointment, I believe, will be shared throughout the country. I myself anticipate that if a reduction is not made, and made at a comparatively early date, the demand throughout the country will become insistent not merely to reduce the garrison but to withdraw from Mesopotamia altogether.

OFFICIAL SECRETS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Unauthorised use of uniforms; falsification of reports, forgery, personation, and false documents.
1. If any person for the purpose of gaining admission, Or of assisting any other person te gain admission, to a prohibited place, within the meaning of the Official Secrets Act, 1911 (hereinafter referred to as "the principal Act"), or for any other purpose prejudicial to the safety or interests of the State—

(a) uses or wears, without lawful authority, any naval, military, air-force, polioe, or other official uniform, or any uniform so nearly resembling the same as to be calculated to deceive, or falsely represents himself to be a person who is or has been entitled to use or wear any such uniform; or

(b) orally, or in writing in any declaration or application, or in any document signed by him or on his behalf, knowingly makes or connives at the making of any false statement or any omission; or

(c) forges, alters, or tampers with any passport or any naval, military, air-force, police or official pass, permit, certificate, licence, or other document (hereinafter in this section referred to as an official document), or uses or has in his possession any such forged, altered, or irregular official document; or

(d) personates, or falsely represents himself to be a person holding, or in the employment of a person holding office under His Majesty, or to be or not to be a person to whom an official document or secret official code word or pass word has been duly issued or communicated, or with intent to obtain an official document, secret official code word or pass word, whether for himself or any other person, knowingly makes any false statement; or

(e) uses, or has in his possession or under his control, without the authority of the Government Department or the authority concerned, any die, seal, or stamp of or belonging to, or used, made or provided by any Government Department, or by any diplomatic, naval, military, or air force authority appointed by or acting under the authority of His Majesty, or any die, seal or stamp so nearly resembling any such die, seal or stamp as to be calculated to deceive, or counterfeits any such die, seal or stamp, or uses, or has in his possession, or under his control, any such counterfeited die, seal or stamp;

be shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and subsection (2) of section one of the principal Act shall apply to prosecutions under this subsection in like manner as it applies to prosecutions under that section
(2) If any parson—

(a) retains any official document, whether or not completed or issued for Use, when he has no right to retain it, or when it is
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contrary to his duty to retain it, or fails to comply with any directions issued by lawful authority with regard to the return or disposal thereof; or

(b) allows any other person to have possession of any official document issued for his use alone, or communicates any secret official code word or pass word so issued, or, without lawful authority or excuse, has in his possession any official document or secret official code word or pass word issued for the use of some person other than himself, or on obtaining possession of any official document by finding or otherwise, neglects or fails to restore it to the person or authority by whom or for whose use it was issued, or to a police constable;

(c) without lawful authority or excuse, manufactures or sells, or has in his possession for sale any such die, seal or stamp as aforesaid;

he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: I am loath to interrupt the silent course of proceedings on this Bill, and I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a minute. I do not differ in point of aim and purpose from His Majesty's Government. We are all out for ensuring the security of the Realm. I desire only to point out that in Clause 1, subsection (2), a new category of offence is created which goes very far beyond the sphere of espionage, or what leads by cumulative steps to other like offences. There is nothing that I less wish to do than to make it more difficult for His Majesty's Government to secure that amount of protection which was denied under the old Act, and which might have had serious consequences during the great war.
What I wish to bring before your Lordships is this. In the second subsection of Clause 1 a series of new offences is created, and the principal one is that any person who is in possession of any official document, the return of which is demanded by a competent authority, is guilty of a misdemeanour. If he is guilty of a misdemeanour he may, under Clause 8, be severely punished, the penalties amounting to two years' imprisonment with or without hard labour. He is, therefore, in a very grave position. I do not know a single editor of a national paper who from time to time has not been in possession of official documents which have been brought into his office, very often not at his own request, and which it may be inconvenient to the Minister of the responsible Department should have gone out. Is it proposed that any man in that position should be liable

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to prosecution and be subject to such penalties? I do not suppose, for a moment that the noble Viscount, or his colleagues, would use, this Bill for any such purpose, but it is possible that in their place there might be Ministers holding peculiar views in regard to the liberty of the subject and the liberty of the Press, such as are openly avowed by certain sections of the Labour Party in this country to-day, and you cannot guarantee that such powers will always be reasonably used.
I think the words in the subsection are dangerously wide. It would not be any proof of espionage, or any such offence that an editor had in his possession documents which the Department possibly had not wished should be issued, but which even those who might not have any corrupt or sinister motive desired should come into the possession of those responsible for political comment and criticism in the Press. I do not quarrel with the Bill in the least. I quite see it may be necessary, with the experience of the war behind us, to embody by way of Statute those provisions which have been found extremely useful during the war under the Regulations made by virtue of the Defence of the Realm Act. But I would ask the noble Viscount whether he would give me some assurance that he will carefully examine this clause, and, if he finds—because the Bill has to go to another place—that these words are dangerously wide they will be so limited, not in the least to defeat the object of the Bill, but to protect the newspaper Press from prosecutions which might be instituted, and of which they have a reasonable fear.
I do not believe any editor would be safe if the Bill were passed in its present form. They would have to take out policies of insurance against this sort of prosecution, and I have not such unlimited faith in Government Departments that I wish to give them the sort of autocratic powers that have no doubt been exercised, in regard to publication in the Press, in other countries, which have treated documents as if they were inspired and sacrosanct. I shall raise no further objection, but I would ask the noble Viscount to give an undertaking that, if he has not strong reasons for disagreeing—because I can raise the matter again on Report—he will endeavour to find words which will give to the newspaper Press that measure of assurance which I think they are entitled to demand.
VISCOUNT PEEL: We are put in some difficulty, as my noble friend knows, with his Parliamentary experience. This Bill was down for Second Reading on Tuesday, and no noble Lords took any part whatever in the discussion.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: That is very usual.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Therefore nothing led me to believe that there was any objection to the Bill in any quarter of the House. Moreover, there is no Amendment on the Paper now, and of these objections—important ones no doubt—I have had no notice which would have given me the opportunity of consulting with the authorities concerned. I am in a further difficulty, because the noble Viscount has not even tabled an Amendment now, so that I am not quite sure of what point he is dealing with. I suggest that the Bill should go through as it is, and then I will discuss with him and make strong representations to the authorities, so that the necessary limiting Amendments are moved in another place (because some of the words probably are rather wide), or, if he prefers it, he can move an Amendment on Third Reading.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: I must apologise to the noble Viscount, but I moved no Amendment because I wish the Government themselves to suggest appropriate words. On the other hand, two hours ago I was in communication with certain expert gentlemen who advise the noble Viscount, and therefore it is not so absolutely unexpected as might appear. I should suggest to him that the words can be inserted on the Third Reading, if he would take that course.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My noble friend has asked me to say a word. I am sure the noble Viscount will see, that it is really a very inconvenient course that he proposes. Whilst this House has always retained the right to make Amendments on Third Reading, it is obviously a very inconvenient course that detailed Amendments to any Bill should be moved at that stage. The noble Viscount will see that there would be complete confusion between the two stages, and there would be no Report stage of Amendments.

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The matter is very complicated, and I am inclined to think, as a first impression, that the language used is a little wide in more than one of these clauses. I think that in Clause 1 (2) it might be possible to insert such words as these—
"If any person, for any purpose prejudicial to the safety and interests of the State—."
and so forth. There is one other later clause in which I have observed some equal vagueness in the drafting. If the
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noble Viscount will discuss these matters with the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill between now and Third Reading, it may be that one or both of them may put down an Amendment which will correct the latitude of the language.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and schedules agreed to.
House adjourned at seven o'clock.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
FIFE-YOUNG'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings before this House on the Second Reading, together with the documents deposited in the case, returned from the Commons.
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 15Th and 16th instant discharged, and Bill committed.
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL.
  LEIGH CORPORATION BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection that the Earl of Kimberley be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of Earl Bathurst; read, and agreed to.