Sitting of 17 June 1920

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Mersey Railway Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
South Hants Water Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Tees Valley Water Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified),
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    CAMERON HIGHLANDERS (PRIVATE CHARLES STODDART).
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the Minister of Pensions whether Private Charles Stoddart, No. 16,157, 1st Battalion Cameron Highlanders, who enlisted in December, 1914, and was discharged 14th December, 1918, has been refused a pension on the ground that his illness was not caused by his service; whether he is aware that he made complaints to the regimental doctor in France in December, 1915, and January, 1916; that his record as a workman from his employers and his trade union show he was an excellent timekeeper and worker before he enlisted; whether he is aware that his doctor certifies him as suffering from illness contracted in the service; and whether he will consider if this case is deserving a pension?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Macpherson): Private Stoddart was
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    transferred to munition work on 10th August, 1916, and was discharged as surplus to military requirements (not having suffered impairment during service) on 14th December, 1918. At his medical examination in the following January he complained of slight rheumatic pains, but the medical officer was not of opinion that this slight disability was due to or aggravated by military service. Stoddart appealed in 1919 to the Pension Appeal Tribunal, who, however, confirmed the decision as to non-attributability on 6th ultimo, and as the decision of the Appeal Tribunal is by statute final, no award of pension or allowance can be made. There is no record in Private Stoddart's military papers that he made complaint as to his health to the regimental doctor, nor is there any record of his having received medical treatment.

    NEUROLOGICAL TREATMENT.
    Sir HENRY HARRISasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that there are more than 400 cases of men awaiting in-patient neurological treatment in London and the region immediately surrounding it; and whether, in view of the very serious results of delay and neglect in such cases, what steps the Ministry have taken to provide the additional accommodation required?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The number stated is approximately the number of cases awaiting treatment for the whole area covered by London and the Eastern and South-Eastern Counties. Every effort is being made to obtain further hospital accommodation. There are many difficulties to overcome, but I hope that additional facilities may be available at an early date.

  IRELAND.

    POLICE PENSIONS.
    Sir JOHN BUTCHERasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the War bonus granted to the rank and file of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police between 1st March, 1915, and 31st March, 1919, has not been reckoned in calculating the pensions granted to those men who retired from both police forces during that period; whether such War bonus has been added

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    to the pensions of ex-officials of the Post Office and other Civil Servants in Ireland who retired during that period under similar circumstances; and, if so, will he say why pensioners of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police are not dealt with in like manner by the Government?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Henry): The War bonus granted to members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police within the period referred to was expressly given as a non-pensionable emolument, and has been so treated. The Civil Service rate of War bonus, which is to a certain extent treated as pensionable, has not been extended to members of these forces, who, however, were granted permanent increases of pensionable pay on four occasions since the outbreak of the War, two of which fell within the period referred to.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Why were the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police treated in a different way from these other officials?
    Mr. HENRY: Because it was proposed permanently to increase their salaries, which has since been done.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will not the pensions of those who retired be injuriously affected?
    Mr. HENRY: As I mentioned in the answer, two pensionable increases occurred in the period covered by the hon. and learned Member's question.

    CONSTABULARY (RECOGNITION OF GALLANTRY).
    Colonel ASHLEYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the fact that some 35 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police have been killed and twice the number wounded since 1st January last, he will institute a medal or decoration to be granted to the officers and men of these two forces who have shown special gallantry in the execution of their duty under circumstances dangerous to life and limb; and, if so, whether, to avoid delay, power will be given to the official heads of these two
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    forces to bestow this medal or decoration on their own initiative?
    Mr. HENRY: The Constabulary Reward Board have full power at present to award medals to members of the force, in the circumstances referred to in the question. They have already made many awards for pre-eminent valour and bravery, and have promoted a considerable number of sergeants and men, as well as giving them first class favourable records with grants. No decision has yet been arrived at as to the institution of an additional medal.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Does this medal carry with it any money pension, as in the Army the V.C. carries £10 a year; and will the right hon. Gentleman consider favourably an extension of the medal to the Dublin Metropolitan Police, as this is given purely to the Royal Irish Constabulary?
    Mr. HENRY: I do not think the medal itself carries any pecuniary consideration, but in these cases favourable records with grants of money were given. As regards the second supplementary question, I will have inquiries made, and have it carefully considered.
    Viscount CURZON: Are posthumous awards made to the relatives and dependants of those who have been killed on duty?
    Mr. HENRY: Yes; not merely awards, but there is power under the Constabulary Acts to give pensions to the widows and gratuities to the children, and those in a number of cases have been given.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Why not award War medals with clasps for actions?

    ILLEGAL COURTS.
    Colonel ASHLEYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that between 15th April and 3rd June Sinn Fein activities extended to 21 Irish counties and that the activities of this organisation, as officially put forward by them, included assuming the duties of police officers in arresting people, keeping individuals in custody, holding land courts, both primary and secondary, arresting and imprisoning persons for a breach of Sinn Fein land court findings, inflicting terms of imprisonment in republican prisons, and deporting people

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    from the districts in which they live; and will he state what steps, if any, the Government have taken to deal with this assumption of power by a seditious organisation, and what has been done to restore the authority of the King's courts and that of the civil authorities?
    Mr. LYNN: Is it not a fact that the people who constitute these voluntary courts are largely the friends of murderers?
    Mr. HENRY: It is true that courts, popularly styled Sinn Fein courts, have sat in the counties of Clare, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Kilkenny, Westmeath, Queen's County, Leitrim, Roscommon, Sligo, Galway and Donegal, but there is no evidence to show that they have been established by that illegal organisation, or that they are not, in fact, arbitration courts, voluntarily recognised by parties in conflict. Reports have been received of sentences and punishments inflicted by those courts, but as the persons alleged to have been so treated will not give evidence, or admit the truth of the reports, it is not practicable at present to proceed against the parties who adjudicate in or appear before these courts.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman s answer convey to the House that the Irish Government are recognising these courts; and in the case of men being deported, or told they must leave the district, cannot he, at any rate, get them to give evidence, as they are out of the power of the Sinn Feiners?
    Mr. HENRY: My answer conveys nothing of the kind suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. In every case where anyone is alleged to have been brought before a Sinn Fein court, the constabulary has been instructed to make inquiries, but, owing to the intimidation that prevails to a very great extent in those counties, it has been found impossible up to the present to get evidence, although every effort has been made for that purpose.
    Captain W. BENN: Is the summing-up of the right hon. Gentleman's answer that in three parts of that country law and order are being maintained by the Sinn Fein courts?
    Mr. HENRY: No, Sir; the counties I have mentioned do not make up three-parts of the country.
    Major O'NEILL: May I ask whether those criminals who have been sentenced to transportation by Sinn Fein courts have come to this country; and, if so, what steps have been taken by the police in England to protect the community against them?
    Mr. HENRY: I have quite enough to look after in my own country.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not a fact that these Sinn Fein courts are the only means at the present time of securing any sort of justice in Ireland?
    Mr. HENRY: No, Sir.
    Major E. WOOD: If the right hon. Gentleman holds the view that these are voluntary courts, will he take steps to encourage their establishment in all parts of Ireland?
    Mr. HENRY: I did not convey that they were voluntary courts, or that I hold that view. All I said was that we could not get people to give evidence because of intimidation.
    Captain FOXCROFTasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the form of summons used in the Sinn Fein courts in many counties in Ireland, purporting to be issued by the Irish republican government; and what steps the Government are taking to protect His Majesty's subjects upon whom such summonses are served, and to prevent the usurpation by these illegal tribunals of the criminal jurisdiction of His Majesty's courts?
    Mr. HENRY: I have seen an alleged copy of the summonses. In the absence of evidence from the persons aggrieved identifying the parties serving the summonses, or at whose instance they are served, no prosecution can at present be sustained.

    PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of the new Moderator at the annual general assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, held at Belfast on 7th June, 1920, in which the right reverend gentleman, while denouncing lawlessness, said that nowhere had a hand been raised against one of the isolated church buildings nor against a

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    single individual Presbyterian, as such, in the south and west; and will he give this statement the same publicity as the other news given out by his Department?
    Mr. HENRY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The statement has already received wide publication in the Press, and the Government does not feel called upon to comply with the suggestion in the second part of the question.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do the Government intend to drop all pretence of there being any religious question at the bottom of the Sinn Fein movement?
    Mr. MOLES: Is it not a fact that more than 1,000 police serving in the South and West of Ireland are Presbyterians who go hourly in peril of their lives, and is it suggested that, so long as you do not murder a Presbyterian, you may murder anybody else you like?

    RIFLES (SEIZURE).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the seizure by Sinn Feiners of 20 rifles from the house of Mr. Watson, of Beach Park, near Lurgan; whether Mr. Watson had permission to keep these rifles in his house; and, if not, whether proceedings will be taken against this gentleman?
    Mr. HENRY: The Government has no evidence to show that the statement made in the first part of the question is true, and in the absence of such evidence no proceedings can be taken.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Are they making inquiries into this case?
    Mr. HENRY: Yes, Sir.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will proceedings be taken if it is found to be so?
    Mr. HENRY: Yes, Sir.

    SINN FEIN DELEGATE (ROME).
    Captain FOXCROFTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any information in regard to a reception given at Rome by Mr. John O'Kelly, in the character of diplomatic delegate extraordinary of the Government of the Irish
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    Republic; and whether the Government propose to take any action in the matter?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): I understand that two or three hundred persons attended a reception held at an hotel in Rome on the 26th May, at which disloyal songs were sung and disloyal speeches were made. Mr. John O'Kelly attended this meeting. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Captain W. BENN: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "disloyal songs?" [An HON MEMBER: "The Wearing of the Green!"]
    Colonel ASHLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why this Mr. Kelly was given a passport, on what grounds.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: There appeared to be no reason for the withdrawal of the passport of Mr. Kelly.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Will it be withdrawn now?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I see no reason for that.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Arising out of that last answer, if a Minister states that a person attends a meeting where disloyal songs are sung, surely the passport of His Majesty's Government ought not to be continued?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman should put a question of that nature down. It is hardly fair to spring it upon the Minister. Some of these supplementary questions are difficult to answer offhand.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. HOARE: Does not this incident show how necessary it is to keep a British representative at the Vatican to put our case against that of the Sinn Feiners? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS, TYRONE.
    Mr. ARCHDALEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that at the last Local Government elections in County Tyrone isolated Unionists were warned by notices posted up near their houses that if they voted Unionist, as was expected, it would be taken as a sign that they were enemies of Ireland, and that they would be shot, and many con-

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    sequently were afraid to vote; and whether there are any means of preventing the county council acting with a false Sinn Fein Nationalist majority?
    Mr. HENRY: One intimidatory notice of the kind referred to was brought to the notice of the police in the Tyrone County Council Elections.
    Mr. ARCHDALE: Is it not a fact that owing to the absence of the police at the various booths in the county, and owing to the intimidation, no arrests can have been made? There were thousands of cases of personation. I know of a woman in Armagh who died a week before voting?
    Mr. RAFFAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that this had any effect on the election?
    Mr. HENRY: I can form no opinion on the question of the hon. Gentleman. As to the first supplementary question, that a voter dies a week before voting, it is not at all an uncommon occurrence in Ireland.

    MURDER (CONSTABLE KING).
    Mr. DONALDasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland under what circumstances Constable King, an English ex-service man who lately joined the Royal Irish Constabulary, met his death; whether the Government will take steps to see that policemen in future are accompanied by a military guard; and whether the Government are now in a position to issue a Report of the number of crimes in Ireland?
    Mr. HENRY: Constable King was murdered near Bantry on Saturday evening last, when returning in plain clothes on a bicycle to the barracks at Glengariff. He was fired at and wounded, he then escaped and hid in a farmer's house, but was followed, dragged outside and shot dead. He was on leave of absence at the time. He had served four years in the Navy, and took part in the battle of Jutland. A report, such as is suggested, is regularly issued.
    Mr. MOLES: Was this unhappy man a Presbyterian?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Are the police, when they go on leave, not allowed to take their revolvers to protect themselves against attacks like these?
    Mr. HENRY: Yes, Sir, but I regret this constable was not carrying his at the time.
    Major E. WOOD: In view of the anxiety that exists in all parts of the House on these matters, would the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of issuing a statement showing what new steps the Government are taking to secure improvement?
    Mr. HENRY: So far as that can be done, having regard to the public interest, it shall be done.
    Mr. DONALD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the state of affairs that is going on in Ireland would not be tolerated for one week in this country; and is he aware that the success of the Sinn Feiners in Ireland is due to the weakness of this Government?
    Mr. HENRY: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government are dealing, so far as possible, with an extremely difficult situation.
    Mr. DONALD: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Government to issue an Order asking for volunteers in Ireland, who know the position in that country, and could deal with it far better than this Government can?

    POLICE (BOYCOTT).
    Colonel GRETTONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if his attention has been called to the notice posted at Carrick-on-Shannon, headed Irish Re publican Headquarters, North Roscommon, purporting to order a close boycott of the Royal Irish Constabulary and any person having intercourse with them; whether any such boycott has commenced; and, if so, what steps are the Irish Government taking in the matter?
    Mr. HENRY: Attention has been called to the notice referred to. The police are being boycotted in this area, and are getting supplies brought by the military.

    LAND PURCHASE.
    Colonel GRETTONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if payments by tenants in Ireland who have purchased their holdings under the Irish Land Acts are made regularly; and can he state what was the amount of arrears on the last account?
    Mr. HENRY: Having regard to the number of payers, the payment of the half-yearly instalments of Land Purchase Annuities have hitherto been met with great regularity. The total arrears on the 31st March last in respect of all advances made under the Land Purchase Acts, 1870–1909, came to £22,489, the annual amount collectible being something over 3¼ millions, the arrear being less than 0·7 per cent. This arrear has been considerably reduced since the 31st March last.

    G. DUFFY, M.P.
    Colonel ASHLEYasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the hon. Member for South Dublin County (Mr. G. Duffy) has, during recent months, been resident at the Grand Hotel, Paris, describing himself on his official card as Envoyé du Gouvernment Elu de la Républic Irlandaise, and has been actively engaged in carrying on anti-British propaganda; will he state on what ground a passport was issued to this hon. Member; and will His Majesty's Government draw the attention of the Government of the French Republic to the mischievous activities of the hon. Member and request his removal from French territory?
    Sir MAURICE DOCKRELL: Perhaps before the right hon. Gentleman replies to that question, I may, Mr. Speaker, be allowed to make a personal explanation? It has been suggested to me that in the matter of this passport, I might be confounded with the hon. Member mentioned in the question. No name is given, the only reference being to the hon. and gallant Member for Dublin County. I happen to be the only Member sitting for a Division of Dublin County, and the question is open to some misconception. As a matter of fact at least one Member has suggested to me that he thought I was the person referred to. Mr. Speaker, I should like to say that I honestly endeavour to spend five days out of the seven in this House, and having done that, I do not feel sufficiently young or possessed of sufficient energy to go to Paris for political propaganda.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): My hon. Friend is the last man in the House to be suspected by anyone of being the person in the question.
    I am aware that the hon. Member for South Dublin has been residing at the
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    Hotel Continental in Paris for the last fourteen months, and that his notepaper is headed "Delegation du Gouvernment Elu de la République Irlandaise," and that he describes himself as "Envoye de la Républic Irlandaise." The hon. Gentleman was actively engaged in soliciting subscriptions to the so-called Irish Republican loan. I have no precise information as to his other propagandist activities. At the time of his application, the object for which he desired a passport was not stated. His Majesty's Government do not propose to approach the French Government in the sense suggested in the last part of the question. There need be no doubt that the French Government and the French people estimate at their true value the absurd pretensions of the hon. Member for South Dublin.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions to the Foreign Office to withdraw the passport of the hon. Member for South Dublin County?
    Mr. C. PALMER: Is it not time that the Government considered the question of calling over the Roll of this House in order to get rid of these dishonourable men?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Why?
    Mr. LYNN: Who subscribes to these funds?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I should be very surprised indeed if they paid expenses.
    Colonel ASHLEY rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We have already dealt with the question of passports. The hon. and gallant Member had better put his question on the paper.
    Colonel ASHLEY: With great deference, Mr. Speaker, the question is about passports.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The question was whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider withdrawing the passport.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    FUNDS.
    Colonel GRETTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he

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    will state what funds the League of Nations has at its disposal; and in what proportions money for the support of the League has been subscribed by the nations who have joined the League?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I am informed by the Secretary-General of the League of Nations that by the 15th of June, 1920, the sum of £179,055 had been contributed by the members of the League. I have no information as to the precise amounts contributed by each member, but the proportions in which each contributes to the expenses are laid down in Article 6 of the Covenant.
    Colonel GRETTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion is borne by our Government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I should need notice of that question.
    Colonel GRETTON: Does it amount to £40,000?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: That is the Estimate for the coming year.
    Lieut.-Colonel WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire as to whether there has been any contribution by the American Government? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: They are not parties to the League.

    SIR STUART SAMUEL'S COMMISSION.
    Lord ROBERT CECILasked the Prime Minister whether the Report of Sir Stuart Samuel's Commission has yet been before the Council of the League of Nations; if so, what action, if any, the Council has taken in the matter; and when the Report will be laid upon the Table of this House?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The Report is being submitted to the League of Nations and will, it is hoped, be discussed by the Council of the League on 27th July. Pending this discussion, it is not, in the opinion of the Government, desirable to lay the Report on the Table.
    Lord R. CECIL: Has the Report been submitted to the Council? My right hon. Friend will recollect that a question was asked some weeks ago, and it was then stated that the Report would be submitted.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: It has not yet been actually submitted.
    Lord R. CECIL: Is the delay due to the fact that the Government are unwilling to publish this Report, and state what actually occurred?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I should be sorry if my right hon. Friend put that interpretation upon the action of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman may not be aware that very strong representations on this point have been made to the Foreign Office by the Secretary of the League of Nations.

    ASSEMBLY.
    Mr. AUBREY HERBERTasked the Prime Minister whether it is possible to arrange for the assembly of the League of Nations at an earlier date than 7th November?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Council of the League at the recent meeting in Rome decided to invite President Wilson to call the first meeting of the Assembly in November, and I am aware of no reason why that decision should be modified.
    Captain W. BENN: What is the need for the delay from now until November?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The date was fixed by the Council of the League.
    Captain BENN: Did our representatives accede or protest, and ask for an earlier meeting?
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a more appropriate date for the meeting of the League would be the 5th November?

    PALESTINE.
    Brigadier-General SURTEESasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the appointment of a High Commissioner for Palestine belonging to the Jewish faith and the fact that he is about to enter upon his duties, he will state what action has been taken to placate the Arab population, which is greater than the Jewish, and thereby put an end to the racial tension which was evidenced in the riots in Jerusalem some time ago?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: If an assurance is needed that Sir Herbert Samuel will carry out his duties with the strict impartiality which is a characteristic of British administration throughout the world, it will be found in the statement recently made by him and published in the Press. This statement has been telegraphed to Jerusalem, where it has been given wide publicity, and no further action in the direction suggested by the hon. and gallant Member appears to be required.

  PEACE TREATIES.

    TURKEY.
    Brigadier-General SURTEESasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, with reference to a communication made on 10th June by the Greek legation in London to the Press, the peace terms submitted to Turkey for consideration are to be enforced by Greece before the time appointed for such consideration has expired; and whether at the present moment this country has any representative in Smyrna, or whether he has been recalled to India, at a time when it is so important to know the British point of view?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The Peace Terms submitted to Turkey for consideration are not to be enforced by Greece before the time appointed for such consideration has expired, but in some districts the Greek forces are acting as the Mandatory of the Allies in Turkish territories under Allied occupation. At the present time this country is represented in Smyrna by an officer styled "Representative of the British High Commissioner at Constantinople." He has not been recalled.

    WAR CRIMINALS (TRIAL).
    Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to proceed with the trial of the War criminals on the black list; how long it is intended to retain in the hands of the Allies those persons who feature in this list; whether they are considered to be prisoners of war or criminals against the laws of the country in whose hands they now are pending trial; and whether the Supreme Council has as yet decided whether the
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    naval offenders will be tried under the German or British code of international law as far as maritime offences are concerned?
    Mr. GRATTAN DOYLEasked the Prime Minister what is the total number of War criminals which the Allied Governments have intimated must be handed over to them for trial; what steps have the German authorities taken to comply with the demand; how many such criminals have been handed over; and what steps do the Supreme Council propose to take to insist that their oft-repeated demands shall be complied with?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I can add nothing to the statement made by the Leader of the House on this subject on the 17th May last.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Would not the right hon. Gentleman really take the House into his confidence and tell us that this question of punishment of War criminals, like certain other election pledges, is now to be written off as a political bad debt?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not agree in the least with the hon. Gentleman that this ought to be written off. That would be a grave dereliction of duty on our part.

    ARMENIA.
    Mr. PALMERasked the Prime Minister whether any estimate has yet been made of the cost of the work of delimiting the frontiers of Armenia; and whether, as President Wilson has undertaken the task of delimitation in his personal capacity, any decision has been come to as to which country or countries will bear the expense of the work entailed?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in reply to a similar question.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Is it correctly stated in the question that President Wilson has accepted the invitation to delimit these boundaries?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I think so.

  EDUCATION.

    INSPECTORS AND ORGANISERS (PENSIONS).
    Sir J. BUTCHERasked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that inspectors of schools and educational organisers in England and Wales are deprived of the benefits of the Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1918, whereas persons in a similar position in Scotland are entitled to pensions under the Scottish Superannuation for Teachers Act, 1919; and whether he will consult with the Treasury with a view to amending the Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1918, and giving inspectors of schools and educational organisers in England and Wales the benefit of the Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1918?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Herbert Fisher): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I regret that I do not see my way to introduce legislation for the purpose of giving to this class of Local Government officers the benefits of an Act which applies to teachers only.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Is there any reason for this discrimination between the people of England and Scotland who in this matter are in similar positions?
    Mr. FISHER: The question of providing schemes of pensions for the administrative officers under local authorities belongs rather to the Department of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

  RUSSIA.

    SOVIET TRADE DELEGATION.
    Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister whether the United States Government has expressed any opinion as to the negotiations now proceeding between the Prime Minister and M. Krassin; and whether the United States Government were consulted before the decision to open negotiations and to recognise the Soviet Government was definitely arrived at?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The American Ambassador in Italy was present at the San Remo Conference where the decision of the Allied Powers to enter into commercial relations with Russia was taken, and was no doubt reported by him to his
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    Government. We have received no protest against the decision then taken from the American Government. The American Government have been kept informed of the progress of events in case they should at any time express a desire to join in the conversations. They have already nominated an expert to take part in the economic discussions. I may add that Japan and Belgian have intimated their intention to take part in the conversation with M. Krassin.
    Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister how long it is contemplated that the presence of Krassin in this country will be necessary; whether the process of recognition of, and negotiation with, the Soviet Government gives any reason to hope that a constitutional government will be set up in Soviet Russia with whom we can enter into relation or any prospect of obtaining much needed foodstuffs, raw material, etc., release of our prisoners and those of our Allies held as slaves in Soviet Russia, and the settlement of Russia's external debt.
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer to the first part of the question depends on the course of the negotiations at present in progress. In answer to the second part of the question, nogotiations are proceeding with the Russian Trade Delegation on some of the points raised by the hon. and gallant Member. I can add nothing to the statements made by me in this House on the 3rd and 7th June, 1920.
    Viscount CURZON: Has the right hon. Gentleman any news whatever as regards our naval prisoners at Baku?
    Mr. MILLS: Can the Prime Minister tell us the number of Russian prisoners in German territory?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Notice must be given of these questions. The Prime Minister is not omniscient and he cannot remember the number of these prisoners.
    Captain TUDOR REESasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to what, if any, decisions have been arrived at as a result of the negotiations between himself and M. Krassin?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hope to be in a position to make a statement shortly.
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Prime Minister, in view of the announcement that the

    1435
    Russian authorities have decided to send a Russian trade union deputation of inquiry to this country, whether he will take steps to prevent such mission being used for propaganda purposes; and if he will insist on a pledge to that effect being given before the deputation reaches these shores?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I can think of no better propaganda than to give trade union deputations an opportunity of seeing for themselves the working of the two rival systems. The visit of the British deputation to Russia seems to have had a very steadying effect.
    Mr. BILLING: Will the right hon. Gentleman say that until the British prisoners in Russia have been released he will cease flirting with the Soviet Government?

    KIEFF.
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Prime Minister (1) whether he has any information concerning the destruction by the Poles of the electric power station, water service, and sewage system at Kieff previous to their evacuation;
    (2) whether the St. Vladimir Cathedral at Kieff was destroyed or damaged by the Poles before evacuating the city?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The only information which I have received regarding the alleged damage done by the Poles to private property prior to their evacuation of Kieff has been contained in the Bolshevik wireless news. The hon. Member is evidently referring to the same wireless report. I have noticed that the Poles have officially refuted these allegations.
    Mr. MALONE: Are not these barbaric outrages sufficient to warrant discontinuing our support of Poland?

    MANIFESTO (M. LENIN).
    Mr. PALMERasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the importance of explaining the meaning and the purpose of Soviet government as practised in Russia, he will take steps to secure the widest publicity possible for the manifesto of M. Lenin to the workers of Great Britain?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Lenin's manifesto has been published in the Press and I do not know what greater publicity could therefore be given to it.

    DISTRESS FOR RENT.
    Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the only goods which are privileged from seizure in execution against the goods and chattels of any person or are exempt from distress for rent are the wearing apparel and bedding of such person or his family, and the tools and implements of his trade to the total value of £5, and seeing that this value was fixed as far back as 1845, it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation to raise the value of goods so privileged to a sum more in consonance with modern needs?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Ernest Pollock): My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. This suggestion is being considered.

    FLOATING DEBT.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Prime Minister what was the total amount of the floating debt outstanding on Saturday last; and what was the total subscription to the Treasury Bonds to that date?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): As I explained to the hon. and gallant Member last week this information is published in the regular weekly revenue and expenditure returns. I venture to suggest to him that in these circumstances such questions are unnecessary. For his convenience however, I again repeat the information, which is as follows:—The floating debt on Saturday, the 12th June, amounted to £1,301,020,000 and the Exchequer receipts from Treasury Bonds to £6,785,000.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Treasury Bonds issue has been a success?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That also is a question which I have already answered.

    POLAND (MUNITIONS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's

    1437
    Government have taken any steps to prevent further British munitions or munitions purchased in Austria from reaching Poland?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As regards Austrian munitions, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on the 10th instant to the hon. Member for East Leyton, and as regards British munitions, I can add nothing to the answer given on the 17th May to my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand from that answer that no munitions, either from Austria or this country, are being permitted to pass to Poland, and have our representatives in Vienna been instructed accordingly?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer given on the last occasion was very specific, and I really cannot add anything to it.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I press for an answer, or will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to make inquiries at Vienna as to whether any more munitions are being passed from Austria into Poland at the present time, and if so will he prohibit them?
    The PRIME MINISTER: So far as we are concerned, we have done so. We have no responsibility for anybody else.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Have munitions been stopped going from this country to Poland?
    The PRIME MINISTER: None are going from this country.

  HUNGARY.

    JEWS AND COMMUNISTS (PERSECUTION).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the persecution of Jews and Communists at present going on in Hungary and, in view of the evidence produced, will he call upon His Majesty's representative in Buda-Pesth for a Report on the subject?
    The PRIME MINISTER: My attention has been directed to statements on the subject of these alleged persecutions. His Majesty's representative in Buda-Pesth has already reported fully on the conditions referred to and will be asked to
    1438
    examine further the new Reports received.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not a fact that His Majesty's representative at Buda-Pesth has recently wired to the effect that the conditions are getting worse and that there is a state of terror, and that representations have been made to the Hungarian Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, he has wired that the conditions are certainly not improving and if anything are getting worse.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the Government making representations to the Hungarian Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Certainly.
    Lieut.-Colonel S. HOARE: Following the precedent of the appointment of Sir Stuart Samuel's Commission to Poland, will the right hon. Gentleman send a special Commission out to inquire into this question?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I should be very glad to consider that suggestion. Our representative in Hungary is very disturbed about the action of the Government there and has made representations to us on the subject. We are giving him such support as we can.

    BRITISH HIGH COMMISSIONER.
    Mr. MALONEasked the Prime Minister whether Mr. T. B. Hohler, the British High Commissioner in Hungary, has been re-called or relieved and, if so, for what reason?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. His Majesty's Government have no reason for withdrawing their confidence from Mr. Hohler. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Did not Mr. Hohler misinform the Government to the effect that there was no White peril? Has he not since seen fit to review his position?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: It is not true that Mr. Hohler misinformed the Government.
    Mr. MALONE: Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman has not read the labour report?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: Of course he has.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    CANADIAN CORN.
    Major Sir B. FALLEasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the apparently inevitable shortage of corn in this country next year, he will consider the giving of a bounty on Canadian corn brought to this country?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Government are not prepared to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Sir B. FALLE: Not even as an emergency measure?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No.

    SUGAR.
    Mr. SWANasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the average cost of sugar per lb. imported into the United Kingdom during the year 1919; and what was the average price per lb. at which it was sold to wholesalers, retailers, and consumers, respectively?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of FOOD (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson): I have been asked to reply. The average cost of the sugar purchased in 1919 by the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply was approximately 29s. 2d. per cwt. c.i.f., for raw sugar, and 37s. 9½d. per cwt. c.i.f., for white sugar. Sugar for grocery purposes was sold by the Commission from 1st January to 3rd November, 1919, at a wholesale price of 57s. 9d. per cwt. duty paid, equivalent to a retail price of 7d. per lb., and from 3rd November to 31st December, 1919, at 66s. per cwt. wholesale, and 8d. per lb. retail. Sugar for manufacturing purposes was disposed of in the first period at 57s. 9d. per cwt. duty paid, and in the second at 66s. per cwt., with the exception of sugar supplied to jam manufacturers, which remained at 57s. 9d. per cwt. till 29th December, 1919.

    FISH.
    Major ENTWISTLEasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that, at the Hull fish dock on 27th May, 219 kits of fresh fish were consigned to the manure works, and on 28th May, 71 kits were similarly disposed of; and if, in view of these figures, will he immediately recommend more transport facilities?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The Food Controller has received a Report to the effect that 296 kits of fresh fish were disposed of to manure works at Hull on the 28th ultimo. The fish in question were small fish which merchants had declined to purchase, so that the question of transport does not appear to arise in this case. The question of improving the present system of transporting fish is, I know, receiving the constant and sympathetic attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.

    WHEAT.
    Mr. A. SHORTasked the Minister of Food whether the British farmer has been receiving a much less price per quarter for wheat from the Wheat Commission than the foreign grower; and whether he will publish a statement showing month by month since 1917 the prices paid to home and foreign growers, respectively?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I regret that I have no precise, information sufficient to enable me to supply the hon. Member with the details which he desires.
    Mr. SHORT: Cannot this information possibly be got?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: If the hon. Member approaches me, I think I can explain what the difficulty is.

  MUNITIONS.

    SALES (SPAIN).
    Captain W. BENNasked the Prime Minister what amount of munitions of war has been sold to Spain since the Armistice; and whether any condition is laid upon the purchasers as to the ultimate use of these munitions?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No munitions of war have been sold to Spain since the Armistice with the exception of: 5 D.H. 6 aeroplanes (less engines) on 18th December, 1919, and 10 Avro aeoplanes (complete with engines) on 10th November, 1919.
    Captain BENN: Does that apply to private purchases as well as purchases made by the Spanish Government?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think so.

    CHILWELL FACTORY.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN (by Private Notice)asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the allegations against the Ministry in connection with what is known as the Chilwell dump, and, if so, what he is going to do about it?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Mr. James Hope): The Ministry of Munitions has not been responsible for the Chilwell factory for a long time—I think for 14 months.
    Mr. BILLING: Can the hon. Gentleman say who is responsible?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: And will he see that correct information is given to the Press in connection with these matters, because this is very misleading? We want to know who is responsible.
    Mr. HOPE: We always give full and accurate information to all who seek it.
    Mr. BILLING: Who is responsible for the Chilwell dump?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the article in the "Times"?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman cannot really be responsible for what appears in newspapers.
    Mr. BILLING: May I ask who is responsible for the Chilwell dump?
    Mr. HOPE: The Chilwell factory came under the War Office at the end of the last financial year but one. I have not had time to verify the actual date. I have no information as to its present management.

    CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
    Mr. LANE-FOXasked the Prime Minister whether he has received many resolutions from working men's clubs throughout the country complaining of the maintenance of war-time restrictions on the sale of alcoholic liquor, which is stated to be contrary to pledges given by the Government; and whether, in view of the fact recently announced that legislation dealing with this matter cannot be undertaken this Session, he will
    1442
    consider the further relaxing of such restrictions pending introduction of promised legislation?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I can add nothing to what I have already said in reply to similar questions.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a good many of his supporters have given pledges that they would support a modification of these restrictions, and could not some of these restrictions be removed, at any rate until legislation has been brought in?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I agree with my hon. Friend that a good many pledges have been given in respect to the whole of this subject, but it is very difficult to deal with it partially and it has to be dealt with as a whole. In some respects relaxation may be necessary, and in other respects it may be found necessary to take further powers. We have to review the question as a whole.
    Mr. BILLING: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opinion of the House as to whether they are anxious to deal with this question as a whole or continue these restrictions meanwhile?
    Mr. PALMER: Have not many supporters of the Government given pledges that the whole of these restrictions were imposed simply for the War, and would be removed immediately the War was over?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have no recollection of pledges of that kind. The pledges were not confined to this particular aspect of the question. There were other pledges which we are anxious to redeem, and if they are not redeemed now it is not because we do not regard them as urgent, but because of the great Parliamentary pressure which makes it quite impossible for us to deal with all these questions.
    Sir R. ADKINS: Is it not possible to adjust the hours by opening in a way which corresponds to the habits of the people in longer evenings in summer as distinguished from those which may be quite proper in the winter? If this is in the power of the Central Control Board, will my right hon. Friend see that they do adjust the hours in an ordinary common-sense way?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As my hon. and learned Friend has pointed out, that is within the powers of the Central Control Board, and they can act without legislation. I will call their attention to this matter.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these regulations are looked upon with mistrust, and they are believed very largely to be inspired by the licensed trade themselves, who find that they can make larger profits with shorter hours?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That point will no doubt find a place in a speech.

    SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (STATUS AND EMOLUMENTS).
    Sir HENRY CRAIKasked the Prime Minister whether the Government, in view of the heavy responsibilities of the Secretary for Scotland, and the importance of his office in the interests of Scotland, is prepared to raise that office so as to equal in status and emoluments that of a Secretary of State?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I can add nothing to what the Leader of the House said on the 22nd April last, in reply to a question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy.
    Sir H. CRAIK: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the strong feeling existing in Scotland with regard to the present position, which is regarded as adverse to the interests of the country?
    The PRIME MINISTER: My right hon. Friend knows very well that the Government made an attempt to comply with the wishes of Scottish Members, and their effort was not very favourably received.
    Captain W. BENN: Did not the Government take advantage at that time of a perfectly legitimate desire to raise the status of a number of other Ministries?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No doubt there was the same legitimate desire in respect of other Ministries.

    CIVIL SERVICE (WOMEN'S PAY).
    Major HILLSasked the Prime Minister whether the Government intend
    1444
    to take any and, if so, what action, to carry out the Resolution of this House on 19th May, on the subject of equal pay for women civil servants?
    The PRIME MINISTER: His Majesty's Government have carefully reviewed this question in the light of the discussion in the House of Commons on the occasion to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. In this connection, he will remember that important and far-reaching changes were recommended in a recent Report of a Committee of the National Whitley Council on the organisation of the Civil Service, to which the consent of His Majesty's Government was conveyed through the official side. Steps are being taken to give effect to those recommendations, and pending further experience, the Government do not feel justified in varying them. In the nature of things, these recommendations can only be tentative, and the Government are prepared to review the situation afresh within a reasonable period of time, which in no case will exceed five years and will, I anticipate, be considerably less.
    Major HILLS: When will the policy of the Government on this be definitely announced? Am I to understand that the Government are going to pay no attention to the Resolution of this House of 17th May?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The House has really to decide between these varied recommendations, which add considerable sums of money to public expenditure for the various improvements which we all desire, but which we cannot afford. This applies to other subjects as well as the one mentioned in the question.
    Major HILLS: When will the Government policy be announced?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have now announced it.

    ALBANIA.
    Mr. HERBERTasked the Prime Minister if he has any information of events in Albania?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The information which reaches us from Albania is of a somewhat contradictory nature. I understand, however, that the Italian forces have been withdrawn to Valona,

    1445
    and that conditions in the interior are seriously disturbed.
    Mr. HERBERT: Has the right hon. Gentleman got the information from the British representative in Albania?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid I cannot tell my hon. Friend.
    Mr. HERBERT: Have the Government any representative in that area? If not, will one be sent at once?

  COAL PRODUCTION.

    EXPORTS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether he has received a telegram sent to him on 14th June last from a mass meeting of employees of the Hull coal export trade, protesting against the continued embargo on coal exports from the Humber ports and the consequent threat to their livelihood; what action he proposes to take on the telegram; whether he is aware of the effect the embargo on coal is having on the import trade of the Humber; and whether some proportion of the exportable coal will be allotted to the port?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Bridgeman): I have been asked to reply. The telegram referred to has been received, and, as I explained in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member on Monday last, I am not at present in a position to make any statement in this matter. I approve of the proposal which the staffs of the Hull coal exporters make in the telegram in question, namely, that they should ask the Committee, which has been set up to inquire into the matter, to take evidence from them.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Can the Prime Minister now receive a deputation from his very important trade, which is suffering so heavily? Was he not approached to receive one five months ago?
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is a fact that last week the Malton Colliery Company, County Durham, was advised by the Coal Controller that the total amount of coal
    1446
    they would be permitted to export abroad in June would be 22 tons, and that this tonnage must be shipped to foreign countries in the following proportions; 45 per cent. to France, 18 per cent. to Italy, 8 per cent. to Norway, 8 per cent. to Sweden, 7 per cent. to Denmark, 2 per cent. to Spain, and 12 per cent. to other foreign countries; is he aware that such a method of allocation is quite unworkable; and will he withdraw these particular orders whilst retaining the same limit as to the total amount to be exported?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which the Leader of the House gave to him yesterday in reply to a similar question.
    Mr. THOMSON: May I ask if the intimation sent to the local controller was to the effect that a more businesslike arrangement was to be put in force, and the present unworkable one withdrawn?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: As the hon. Gentleman has been informed, it is a matter with which the local Fuel Control Committee had to deal, and the complaint should be made to them. I believe the Coal Controller has been in communication with them, and the hon. Member should complain directly to the local committee.
    Mr. THOMSON: Has the head Controller in London any authority over the local controller?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: When control was taken over distribution the local Fuel Committee became the authority, and these instructions, if they are issued, are issued by them under their authority, and without any authority from the Fuel Controller.

    COAL MINES BILL.
    Mr. T. A. LEWISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to say when the Coal Mines Bill will be introduced?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I hope that this Bill will be introduced next week.

  HOUSING.

    GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY.
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDSasked the Prime Minister whether the Ministry

    1447
    of Health, in raising the Government subsidy to be paid to builders of houses by £100 per house in the case of houses commenced after the 1st April, 1920, and by £50 in the case of houses commenced before that date, has defeated the intention of this House in voting £15,000,000 on 11th December, 1919, on the basis of a White Paper produced by the Ministry of Health which showed that the grant would average £150 per house, and therefore provide a total of 100,000 houses; and whether this House will be given an opportunity of considering this alteration in the rate of the subsidy before any payments are made on the higher basis given in the Ministry of Health's memorandum of May, 1920?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison): I have been asked to answer this question. I cannot accept the suggestion in the first part of the question. I am glad to say that the effect has been precisely the contrary. The amount per house of the subsidy was not fixed by the Act, but was left to be determined by the Minister of Health and the Treasury. In view of the increase in the cost of building since the amount of the subsidy was originally fixed, it was found necessary, after careful consideration, to increase the amounts by £100 in each case. An opportunity for discussion will arise upon the Estimates of the Ministry of Health.
    Mr. EDWARDS: Is it not a fact that there was a White Paper issued when this Section was agreed to, that in that White Paper the very definite figures of £160, £140, and £130 were mentioned, and that it was on the strength of those figures that the Section was given?
    Mr. NEWBOLD: Does the right hon. Gentleman attach any connection between the announcement of the subsidy and the rise in the cost of building?
    Dr. ADDISON: I do not think the announcement of the subsidy affected the price of building; it was affected by much greater considerations. The increase in the cost of labour and materials since the original proposal is more than the amount by which the subsidy has been increased.
    Mr. EDWARDS: Is it not the fact that the White Paper was before the House, and that it was on the strength of that that the Section was agreed to?
    Dr. ADDISON: The House decided in accordance with the provisions of the Bill.
    Mr. BILLING: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that within twenty-four hours of the Government's announcement of the new subsidy all building materials and labour went up by over 20 per cent?
    Dr. ADDISON: No, Sir, I am not aware of that. I am afraid the hon. Member is misinformed.
    Mr. BILLING: If I furnish the right hon. Gentleman with the material, will he take some action?
    Mr. WILLIAM CARTERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Treasury had been consulted by the Ministry of Health on the question of raising the building subsidy by £100 per house; what was the additional charge involved; and whether the Treasury approved of the increase?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Treasury was consulted on, and agreed to, the recent increase in the subsidy to private persons constructing houses under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919. It is hoped that the raising of the subsidy will lead to a considerable increase in the number of applications, but no estimate of any value can be given. There is no reason to anticipate that the limit of £15,000,000 set by the Act will be reached.

  FINANCE BILL.

    BEER DUTY.
    Mr. RAFFANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the loss to the Revenue involved in the allowance made to brewers of six per cent. in respect of such accidental loss and waste as arises in the brewing of beer under the Inland Revenue Act, 1880, Section 13, Subsection (b); whether approximately 65 per cent. of the beer brewed is produced by under five per cent. of the firms engaged in the trade; and whether, in view of this concentration and of improved methods of brewing, he can see his way to reduce the allowance?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under the law the duty on beer is charged by reference to the worts from which the beer is produced, and not upon the finished beer.

    1449
    As the duty must be regarded as falling upon the finished beer, an allowance has to be made to cover the waste arising during the conversion of the worts into beer. It is considered that an allowance of six per cent. is not more than sufficient to cover this waste, taking the trade as a whole, and I do not propose to reduce it. As regards the second part of the question, no recent figures are available, but it is thought that the percentages quoted by the hon. Member are approximately correct.
    Mr. RAFFAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that estimates have been published which show that this sum is excessive, and has any recent inquiry been made on behalf of the Government as to whether the sum originally fixed is now excessive?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I know that the calculation has been criticised, as any calculation may be, but I think it is a fair average sum. No doubt the most efficient brewers would have their loss more than covered by it, but I think that it is a fair average sum, substantially speaking, and without being too exact in this particular respect.

    INCOME TAX.
    Sir FREDERICK BANBURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people paid Income Tax for the year ending March, 1920, and how many it is anticipated will pay Income Tax under the new arrangements set forth in the Finance Bill?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The number of individuals liable to Income Tax for the year 1919–20 is estimated at 3,700,000. The number of individuals that will pay Income Tax for the year 1920–21 under the present Budget proposals is estimated to be 2,450,000. These figures do not include individuals whose incomes are above the exemption limit but who, by reason of reliefs and allowances, will not be liable to Income Tax.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    RE-CLOTHING.
    Captain REESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Secretary of State for War has incurred expenditure for scarlet
    1450
    uniforms for which he has not received Parliamentary sanction; whether, in the event of that expenditure not receiving the ratification of Parliament, the Secretary of State for War will be personally surcharged with it; and, if not, out of what funds will the debt be discharged?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Secretary of State acted upon a decision of the Cabinet for which the Government as a whole is responsible.
    Mr. PALMER: Are we to understand that the Treasury has ceased to have any control over public expenditure?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir; the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Treasury are still Members of the Cabinet.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Are we to understand that the Cabinet has incurred this expenditure before coming to the House?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Are we to understand that a new practice has arisen, of the Cabinet sanctioning new works contrary to the custom that they shall be sanctioned by this House in Committee of Supply?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No new practice has arisen, as my hon. and gallant Friend has been long enough a Member of this House to know.
    Mr. PALMER: Is the presentation of Estimates merely a matter of Departmental humour?
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Is this the actual position of affairs, that the necessary sum to cover this is included in the Estimates which have been submitted to the House?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: And, therefore, the whole matter is still subject to the complete jurisdiction of the Committee on the Estimates?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Oh, yes, certainly. The House can refuse to vote the money.
    Captain REES: May I ask for a reply to the last part of the question, namely, as to whether, in case the expenditure is not ratified by this House, there are any funds out of which the debt will be met?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If any proposal or action sanctioned by the Cabinet fails to meet with the approval of the House, the question, obviously, will be one for the successors of the present Government.

    SILVER COINAGE.
    Sir CHARLES OMANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the price of silver bullion has fallen from 88d. to 45d. or less per ounce since the passing of the Silver Currency Act; whether any depreciation of the old standard of purity of the silver currency of the realm is now necessary for economic reasons; and whether it would now be possible to coin at the old standard with a high rate of profit to the Crown?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on Tuesday last to the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston-upon-Hull (Colonel L. Ward).

  METROPOLITAN POLICE.

    CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the number of detective officers and men of the Metropolitan Police Force has recently been increased, and, if so, to what extent; whether this means an increase in the total police force for London; and if he will state if detectives receive extra pay for their work and what amounts officers and men receive?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): One hundred additional constables have recently been authorised for the Criminal Investigation Department. This does not involve any increase in the establishment of the Force, as the strength of the Uniform Branch is to be reduced by a corresponding number. Detective officers receive, in addition to the ordinary pay of their rank, the following weekly non-pensionable allowances:—

    s.

    d.

    Superintendents

    …

    …

    15

    0

    Chief inspectors

    …

    …

    12

    6

    Other inspectors

    …

    …

    10

    0

    Sergeants

    …

    …

    7

    6

    Constables

    …

    …

    5

    0

    FIREARMS.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Home Secretary whether any men of the Metropolitan Police Force are being trained in the use of firearms; whether it is proposed to arm any of the men with revolvers; and if he can make any statement on the subject?
    Mr. SHORTT: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday in reply to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths).
    Mr. BILLING: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is proposed to issue ordinary revolvers or automatic pistols to the police, and, if the latter, is he aware that there is considerable danger in their employment?
    Mr. SHORTT: I must have notice of that question.

    WOMEN (EMPLOYMENT).
    Mr. ROBERT RICHARDSONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when it is proposed to introduce the Bill to give legislative sanction to the proposals regarding the employment of women before and after childbirth which were adopted at the Washington International Labour Conference?
    Dr. ADDISON: I have been asked to answer this question. The British official representatives at the Washington Conference refrained from voting on this question. The extent to which the British Government shall adhere to the recommendations of the conference is at present under consideration. The matters involved largely affect insurance questions, and they are now being carefully examined.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask whether the British representative voted on this matter on instructions from the Government?
    Dr. ADDISON: I have already said that the British representative did not vote.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Was that on instructions from the Government?
    Dr. ADDISON: No, Sir, he acted on his own judgment.

    BOOKMAKERS (REGISTRATION).
    Mr. SIMMasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if, with the object of relieving the police and protecting the public from dishonest and disreputable persons acting as bookmakers at race meetings, he will consider the advisability of recommending to the stewards of the Jockey Club, racecourse companies, and racing authorities that bookmakers making bets at race meetings be compelled to pay a registration fee to the company holding a meeting, and that no person shall be allowed to publicly make bets unless such person has registered with the company and whose permanent address has been verified by the police or other competent authority.
    Mr. SHORTT: This is a proposal which may properly receive consideration from the Jockey Club and various bodies that regulate and control race meetings, but I am not in a position to make any recommendation to them with regard to it.
    Mr. SIMM: Was not this a recommendation made by the Chief Constables for various areas?
    Mr. SHORTT: I am afraid I cannot answer that.

  POST OFFICE.

    FOREIGN INSURED PARCELS.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction in business circles with the work of the foreign insured parcels service, due to the repeated non-delivery of insured parcels, the failure to secure payment of compensation, and the delay in getting any adequate replies to claims and complaints, as evidenced by the cases of insured parcel No. 4, posted at Middlesbrough general post office 12th January, 1920, addressed to Bureau of Standards, Washington, which has not yet been delivered or any compensation paid; insured parcel No. 46 to replace above, insured for £32 1s., posted 8th April, which has not yet been delivered and no compensation paid; and an insured parcel sent to France, June, 1919, which is not yet delivered and no compensation paid; and if steps will be taken to secure improved working and more courteous treatment when service fails?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Pike Pease): The foreign parcel post service is being carried on at present under considerable difficulty, owing to the irregularity of sailings and the disorganisation of transport services abroad; and delay in the transmission and delivery of parcels, whether insured or not, is frequently inevitable. Inquiries into complaints and settlement of claims necessarily involve correspondence with foreign administrations, which takes considerable time; and decisions as regards liability and adjustment of claims cannot be reached until the result of the inquiries abroad is known. I can assure the hon. Member that everything possible is done by my Department to maintain as efficient and speedy a service as is possible under exceptionally difficult conditions. I am having inquiry made with reference to the two insured parcels posted at Middlesbrough in January and April last; and if the hon. Member will furnish me with fuller particulars of the insured parcel sent to France in June, 1919, to which he refers, I will have the matter investigated.

  TRANSPORT.

    RAILWAY PASSENGER FARES.
    Mr. STURROCKasked the Minister of Transport whether, before making a final decision in regard to increasing railway passengers' fares, he will cause inquiry to be made into the costs of operating the present system of frequently examining season tickets, with a view to cutting down expenses?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Mr. Neal): Before any increase is made in railway passengers' fares the subject will be referred to the Rates Advisory Committee, who will, I am sure, consider all questions relevant thereto. The systematic examination of tickets results in the collection of a considerable revenue, which the companies would otherwise lose.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Before any increase in railway fares, or any action is taken by the Government to increase the working expenses of the railways, will the House itself be consulted?
    Mr. NEAL: I cannot answer that without notice.

    FISH.
    Major ENTWISTLEasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that a quantity of fish consigned to Nuneaton from the Hull Billingsgate on the Monday did not arrive there till Tuesday evening; and, if in view of this and many other similar occurrences, will he grant immediate relief?
    Mr. NEAL: The case mentioned is not sufficiently clearly defined to enable inquiry to be made, but if the hon. and gallant Member will let me have particulars of the consignment, sender, consignee, date, etc., I will investigate the case. The hon. and gallant Member was present at the Conference on 15th June, when the general question of fish traffic ways shows the exceptional care which the measures which are being taken owing to the intervention of the Ministry of Transport. The very greatly increased quantity of fish being carried by railways shows the exceptional care which is being bestowed on this traffic, and the organisation which has now been set up should ensure that all reasonable complaints will be promptly and properly attended to.
    Major ENTWISTLEasked the Minister of Transport if he will invite the Fair Trading (Fish) Council formed by the Food Controller to nominate a member for the Rates Advisory Committee?
    Mr. NEAL: The constitution of the Rates Advisory Committee is determined by Section 21, Sub-section (1), of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, and it is not open to me to adopt the hon. and gallant Member's suggestion. I would suggest that the fish trade should seek an opportunity of placing its views before the Committee at an appropriate stage of their inquiry.
    Major ENTWISTLE: Is it a fact that the North Sea Fisheries Protection Association was invited to nominate a member to the Committee by the Government?
    Mr. NEAL: I cannot think that can be the fact. The constitution of the Committee is strictly defined by the Statute, and such an inquiry must have been contrary to the Statute.
    Major ENTWISTLE: The information I got on that point from the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries is that this member had been invited.

    NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY.
    Mr. SWANasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the inadequate train service on the Stanhope and Weardale line, county Durham, and of the very bad connecting service to other parts of the county; and if he will urge the North Eastern Railway Company to increase the number of passenger trains and make better connection arrangements?
    Mr. NEAL: My attention has not been previously called to the Stanhope-Weardale train service; but I will have inquiry made of the railway company concerned. In order that the inquiry may be complete, I shall be glad if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars of the connecting services to other parts of the county which he regards as unsatisfactory.
    Mr. SWAN: In the event of the Ministry of Transport being unsuccessful in their powers of persuasion to get this Committee to meet the requirements of the public will he make a reasonable proposition to them that some cattle trucks be linked on to some of the mineral trains for the convenience of the public;

    FOREST FIRE, ABERDEENSHIRE.
    Mr. STURROCK (by Private Notice)asked the Lord Advocate whether he can give the House any further information regarding the forest fires in Scotland?
    The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Morison): The latest information is contained in two telegrams which my right hon. Friend has received from the Chief Constable of Aberdeenshire, and I propose to read the telegrams to the House. The first was sent off at 10.26 last night. "Glentanar fire still raging fiercely over wide area. About 500 acres already burned. Fire has now entered thickly wooded part, where it is practically impossible to check the fire until it burns itself out. About 250 men present to assist. Two officers 40 men from Castle Hill barracks, Aberdeen, assisting. Relays of helpers arranged for. Lord

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    Glentanar thinks if present assistance is maintained it will be sufficient. All available military from Aberdeen sent. Will report to-morrow." This morning's report was sent off at 10.47, and is as follows: "Glentanar fire report this morning is that the fire, after a calm night, is now burning much less fiercely. Unless wind rises present assistance will be able to keep it in check."
    Mr. HAILWOOD: Is the fire caused in consequence of Scotland going "dry"?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. CLYNES: May I ask the Leader of the House what is the business which will be taken next week?
Mr. BONAR LAW: Monday—The Rent Restrictions Bill, Report and Third reading;
Tuesday—The Government of Ireland Bill;
Wednesday—Army Votes;
Thursday—The Ministry of Transport Vote.
Captain W. BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say approximately when the Scottish Estimates will be taken?
Mr. BONAR LAW: That depends on when we are asked.
Sir D. MACLEAN: In view of the importance of the Rent Restrictions Bill, does not the right hon. Gentleman think one day for Report and Third Beading is very short allowance?
Mr. BONAR LAW: The right hon. Gentleman knows there is a limit of time within which the Bill must be passed. I hope Monday will be sufficient.
Captain BENN: If Monday be insufficient, will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving Tuesday as well?
Mr. BONAR LAW: That is a hypothetical question which we may leave to be answered when Monday comes.
Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be taken, if ever?
Mr. BONAR LAW: It will not be taken next week. We must get through other measures with which we are now dealing. It cannot be taken for the next ten days.

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel:
That they had appointed Sir WILLIAM PEARCE to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Gas Regulation Bill); Mr. Brace to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Women, Young Persons, and Children (Employment) Bill); Mr. Hodge to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Public Libraries (Ireland) and the Sheriffs (Ireland) Bills).
That they had appointed Sir WATSON RUTHERFORD to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B in place of Mr. J. W. Wilson (in respect of the Blind Persons Bill).
That they had appointed Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON to act as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Firearms [Lords] and the Dangerous Drugs Bills).
That they had appointed Mr. MAC-MASTER to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D in place of Sir Samuel Roberts (in respect of the Blind (Education, Employment, and Maintenance) Bill).
That they had appointed Mr. J. W. WILSON to act as Chairman of Standing Committee E (in respect of the Agriculture Bill).
That they had appointed Mr. RENDALL to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the Direct Representatives of the General Medical Council Bill).
Reports to lie upon the Table.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP D).
Sir PARK GOFF reported from the Committee on Group D of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP E).
Sir WILLIAM HOWELL DAVIES reported from the Committee on Group E of Pri-

1459
vate Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [Lords],
Great Yarmouth Water Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Birkenhead Extension) Bill [Lords],—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of four Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Birkenhead Extension) Bill [Lords] and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of Members to be joined with the said Lords.
That they propose that the said Joint Committee do meet in No. 3 Committee Room on Thursday, the 24th of June, at Twelve o'clock.

BILLS REPORTED.
Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Tramways Provisional Orders Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Gas) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Southampton Extension) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Belfast Water Bill [Lords],
Tees Conservancy Bill [Lords],
Dearne Valley Water Board Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Women, Young Persons, and Children (Employment) Bill): Lieut.-Colonel Allen, Mr. Baird, Mr. James Bell, Sir Thomas Bramsdon, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Alfred Davies, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Mr. Glanville, Mr. Robert McLaren, and Mr. Mallalieu.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had

  1461
  added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Public Libraries (Ireland) Bill and the Sheriffs (Ireland) Bill): Sir Robert Balfour, Mr. Barrand, Mr. Charles Barrie, Mr. James Bell, Captain Wedgwood Benn, Mr. Alfred Davies, Mr. Donald, Mr. Harbison, Mr. Solicitor-General for Ireland, and Mr. Daniel Wilson.

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Mr. George Jones, Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Colonel Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Newman, and Mr. Daniel Wilson; and had appointed in substitution; Lieut.-Colonel Allen, Commander Bellairs, Lieut.-Colonel Buckley, Mr. Jodrell, and Mr. Raper.
  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Nine Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Firearms Bill [Lords] and the Dangerous Drugs Bill): Mr. Baird, Captain Bowyer, Captain Elliot, Mr. Kiley, Mr. Lindsay, Mr. Mills, Mr. Secretary Shortt, Mr. Tootill, Earl Winterton, and Mr. Woolcock; and, in addition (in respect of the Firearms Bill [Lords] only), Mr. Kiley and (in respect of the Dangerous Drugs Bill only) Dr. Murray.
  STANDING COMMITTEE D.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee D (in respect of the Direct Representation of the General Medical Council Bill): Sir Watson Cheyne, Captain Elliot, Mr. Hallas, Mr. Johnstone. Sir Ashton Lister, Captain Loseby, Dr. Murray, Lieut.-Colonel Raw, Mr. Wignall, and Sir Kingsley Wood.

  STANDING COMMITTEE E.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee: That they had nominated the following Members to serve on Standing Committee E: Rear-Admiral Adair, Mr. Archdale, Mr. Bell, Sir Arthur Shirley Benn, Mr. Blair, Sir Francis Blake, Captain Bowyer, Mr. Britten, Lieut.-Colonel Campion, Mr. Carr, Major Cayzer, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, Lieut.-
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  Colonel Spender Clay, Major David Davies, Sir William Davison, Mr. Dawes, Mr. Grattan Doyle, Mr. Charles Edwards, Captain FitzRoy, Mr. Ford, Mr. Forrest, Mr. Ernest Gardner, Mr. Gilbert, Colonel Greig, Mr. Hailwood, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Hirst, Sir Harry Hope, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Hope, Major Howard, Sir Edgar Jones, Mr. Haydn Jones, Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy, Mr. M'Guffin, Mr. Hugh Morrison, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur Murray, Mr. Myers, Major O'Neill, Mr. Pretyman, Mr. Raffan, Captain Tudor-Rees, Lieut.-Colonel Royds, Mr. Seddon, Mr. Alfred Short, Mr. Spencer, Captain Sir Beville Stanier, Mr. Swan, Mr. George Terrell, Sir Robert Thomas, Mr. Townley, Sir Courtenay Warner, Mr. Waterson, Colonel Wedgwood, Major Wheler, Mr. Charles White, Mr. Wignall, Colonel Penry Williams, Major Mackenzie Wood, and Mr. Robert Young.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee E (in respect of the Agriculture Bill): The Lord Advocate, Mr. Acland, Major Barnston, Mr. Hugh Barrie, Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen, Mr. James Brown, Mr. Cautley, Mr. James Gardiner, Mr. Lambert, Mr. Lane-Fox, Mr. Munro, Mr. Royce, Mr. Walter Smith, Mr. Solicitor-General, and Mr. Edward Wood.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY [12TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1920–21.
    CLASS 5.

      DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR SERVICES.
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £1,279,379, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions, and Consular Establishments Abroad, and other Expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote."—[Note.—£1,000,000 has been voted on account.]

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    STATEMENT BY MR. BALFOUR.
    The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Mr. Balfour): I understand that the Vote to be discussed to-night, or in the earlier part of the night, relates to the League of Nations, and as I have been the delegate of this country to the League of Nations for more of its meetings than any of my colleagues it has been thought appropriate that that part of the Vote which relates to the League of Nations should be in my charge. I am confident that the Committee will require some very brief but unpretentious statement of the present position of the League, what it has accomplished, and its immediate prospects in the future. The League of Nations is in its first infancy. It came into operative existence only six months ago, but, indeed, it was not until four months ago that the full tale of the original members of the League was reached. Therefore, for certain purposes, our existence may be counted as of only four months' instead of the full six months' duration. If I may judge by the temper of some of the criticisms passed on the League, it would almost appear that it was thought that in that time the League would have come into existence as a fully
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    equipped and fully organised body, competent to carry out, not only the duties of the League as contemplated in the Covenant, but any other duties which the critics might for the time being have thought fit to put forward.
    I would remind the Committee that the organisation of the League itself necessarily takes time, labour, and thought, and that, in addition to what it has done in the way of organising itself in accordance with the Pact, it has been able, as I think, already even now to perform considerable service to the comity of nations. The work of the League in connection with the organisation consists in the first place of appointing a secretariat which will be the permanent thread, so to speak, on which the efforts of the League will be strung. That organisation is at present settled in London, and will be settled in London until after the approaching general meeting of all the nations, which is to take place in November. After that its fate will be decided by the general meeting of the League. Meanwhile it is certainly convenient that London, which was the place where the secretariat was first established, should be continued as its habitat until the new arrangement can be decided upon and carried through.
    The secretariat, though undoubtedly it will have to be increased as the work of the League expands, is now, broadly speaking, complete and adequate for the immediate duties of the Council and the League generally. It had to be appointed entirely by the Secretary-General, with the consent and with the approval of the Council of the League, the Secretary-General himself having been appointed at the General Peace Conference in Paris. The work has been done, and in my opinion has been well done, so far as I am competent to form a judgment, and I believe I can speak for all those who have from time to time worked with me on the Council.
    In addition to what may be called the ordinary secretariat, there has also been attached to the secretariat a particular officer whose business it has been to watch on behalf of the League those particular duties entrusted to the League in connection with the traffic in women and children. The very fact that there is an extra officer attached to the permanent secretariat of the League dealing with this painful and difficult subject will, I

    1493
    hope, have a good effect and undoubtedly greatly assist the League in the performance of those of its functions connected with this particular class of reform.
    In addition to the establishment of the Secretariat, there has been an office established for the registration of treaties. As the Committee is aware, one of the objects which the Pact had in view was that in future no contracts between nations should be entered into contrary to the Pact, and that future treaties, if they were to be valid, were to be registered, and open to inspection by the whole world. I think the change will be beneficial. I think it probably is one of the most important aspects of what is sometimes called open diplomacy, and I hope that the organisation which the secretariat of the League has set up, with the consent of the Council of the League, for attaining this object will prove effective.
    4.0 P.M.
    One other question has been raised, though not as yet settled, which is, in my opinion, of vital moment to the future of the League. It relates to the division of expenses as between the various nations composing the League. A very rough and ready method was adopted, borrowed without alteration or modification from what I think is called the Universal Postal Union. I am not sure that that arrangement, rough and ready though it undoubtedly is, will not prove adequate as long as the sums asked of the nations are relatively insignificant, but if any important sums are to be asked for, it is quite inevitable that the nations from whom they are asked will inquire whether that is the fair sum which they ought to pay as among the 40 or 50 nations in the world who have joined the League. And I am convinced, if once they begin to examine the principles of the Universal Postal Union, they will find, however convenient that arrangement might be, and however adequate for the purpose for which it was originally contrived, that some more scientific method of determining what are the proportions of burdens which ought to be borne by individual States will have to be devised. We propose to submit this very difficult and, as I think, very crucial question to the analysis and consideration of experts when the International Finance
    1494
    Committee meets, as I hope it will soon meet, at Brussels.
    We have thus effected, in the course of the six months, the organisation of the Secretariat, but there are other parts of our organisation, not less important, and involving the consideration of questions yet more critical, on which I must say a word. We were directed by the Pact to create certain permanent advisory committees, and it is on the work of those permanent advisory committees that a great deal of the future utility of the League will undoubtedly depend. There are four of them to which I must refer. First, there is the permanent committee to advise on the subject of armaments and cognate military, naval, and air questions, which require the knowledge, and which will enable us to obtain the advice, of experts. That committee we have appointed, and it is already at work. On its labours much will depend.
    I am one of those who think that if the League, acting as the organ of the Peace Conference, fails in its endeavours to promote a diminution of armaments much of its utility will have gone, and we shall have to admit that so far it has failed to carry out the high expectations which most of us think that we are justified in entertaining as regards its future activities. We shall, of course, be largely guided by the permanent expert committee on this subject which we have already appointed. No expert committee, and no number of expert committees, taken by themselves, however much they may be backed up by the opinion of the Council or even of the General Assembly of the League, will be sufficient unless the nations and the peoples of the world are content to support the policy which we advocate. If each nation declines to adopt any reform of armaments on the ground that armaments on the old scale are necessary for its security, then the tragedy for the world and for the nations which compose the League will be great indeed. I have no fears that this tragedy will indeed be enacted, but I do not conceal from myself, and I do not wish to conceal from the House, that, in my opinion, the questions which will be raised are questions of extreme difficulty and of extreme delicacy, and that they will require, not merely all the knowledge of the experts who make up our permanent advisory committee, but all the tact and judgment of the Council and

    1495
    all the patriotism of the nations which are involved.
    The second permanent committee, for appointing which we have created the machinery, is the permanent advisory committee in the matter of international health. It was a very great advantage, an advantage which I think was much more easily obtained through the League of Nations than through any other conceivable machinery, that the nations of the world could appoint to advise them in this great international interest, a body of medical experts in which all have confidence, and in which all may feel that that are represented. That we are doing. The machinery through which we are doing it is a medical conference originally held in London at the inspiration of the League; and I believe it will contrive to frame an international permanent health committee which will serve an interest which next to peace is almost the greatest international interest that I can imagine, the interest, I mean, of the general health.
    The third permanent committee has to do with transit and waterways communications, which are common lines of communication, whether by land or by water, to more than one country. The most important aspect of this question is undoubtedly the waterways and the problems connected with waterways which have arisen, in prominence, in consequence of the re-arrangement of the map of Europe. There have been commissions appointed to deal with various rivers or parts of rivers, and it has been felt that not only the work of those organisations, but the general problems connected with international waterways require the constant superintendence of the League of Nations, and in this work of superintendence the League of Nations will require the constant assistance of some permanent expert body. That body will be appointed, I hope, after the general meeting of the League, which takes place in November.
    The fourth and last of these permanent committees is in some respects the most important of all, and is the one most intimately connected with the problem of maintaining peace. It is the permanent committee which may properly be described as the Tribunal of International Justice. The world has made attempts,
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    more or less successful, before now to establish such a tribunal. I believe that the methods we have adopted will establish it in its best form, and in a shape which will command the confidence of all the nations of the world, for, indeed, all the nations of the world will have a hand, more or less directly, in drawing it together. In framing this International Court of Justice, we have asked the advice of ten eminent jurists, men of the utmost distinction. Lord Phillimore represents this country; others of great distinction represent other countries, and it gives me peculiar pleasure to say that Mr. Root, the distinguished American jurist, has consented to serve among its members. The Committee, probably, will be aware of the sort of work which will be thrown on the body which they are called into existence to create. This permanent body of international justice will be the referee for all cases of dispute in law. It will be constantly at the service of the Council in all questions of legal difficulty, and I do not doubt that quite outside technical points of law, international or other, this body will be called upon to act as arbitrator in any disputed cases which the nations may bring before it. I cannot imagine a more important adjunct to the general system of the League machinery. I cannot imagine that there is any more essential wheel in the general machinery which the Pact set up for producing or securing harmony between the nations. The organisation of the Secretariat and the organisation of these four permanent committees, when accomplished, will give us, I think, the machinery which the League requires for carrying out its duties. The Committee will see that though much has been done the whole work has not been accomplished. I think that we are in a fair way to accomplish it. These committees are not in all cases yet appointed, but they will be soon appointed, and I think we may look with satisfaction, at all events, on this part of our labours.
    I leave now the question of organisation and come to the work which we have done in connection with the Peace Treaty, under the provisions and in consequence of the requirements contained in the Peace Treaty. The first of those is the appointment of Boundary Commissioners to settle, to delimit, the Saar Valley. We have appointed the Boundary Commissioners, and they are at work. The

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    second, which is more important and probably more vital, is the constitution of the Government of the Saar Valley itself. The population of that area, as the Committee knows, is small, but its international position is important, and the difficulties connected with the character of the population, its position, and the transitory circumstances under which the people find themselves, render the government of the Saar Valley a question of peculiar difficulty and delicacy. As the Committee knows, it is for a certain number of years, until the machinery of self-determination can be fully applied to it, under the League of Nations. I believe that this international body we have appointed for the government of the Saar Valley is doing its work efficiently. It has already presented two reports. A third report, I believe, is soon to be laid before us.
    The only other point on which much work has been done under the Treaty relates to Danzig. The Committee has in mind the special and peculiar position of Danzig. Danzig is a town largely though not wholly German in population, but the majority are Germans. The town itself depends for its prosperity upon Poland as Poland depends upon Danzig for its free issue to the Baltic and to the ocean. Poland is necessary to Danzig; Danzig is necessary to Poland. Yet the racial differences between the port and the hinterland are, as everybody knows, the occasion of infinite bitterness, the heritage of ancient historic wrongs. What the Peace Conference decided to do was to give Danzig a constitution, to frame a Treaty between Danzig and Poland, and put that Treaty under the League of Nations. This is a typical example of the interlocking of the work of the Peace Conference and the League of Nations.
    The League of Nations is responsible for appointing a High Commissioner, and throwing on him the duty of framing a constitution. He has done it, and done it in consultation with the people of Danzig, and I believe to their general satisfaction. The League of Nations has nothing whatever to do with the framing of the Treaty between Danzig and Poland. That has to be done by an officer appointed by the Conference. The League of Nations has come to the conclusion that it was most desirable
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    that the man who negotiated the Treaty should be the same man who had to deal with the constitution and who is acting as the High Commissioner of Danzig. They have appointed Sir Reginald Tower, who carries out both sets of functions, the functions he has under us, and the functions he has under the Peace Conference. I believe that that work is going on.
    I would remind the Committee that we, as a League of Nations, have nothing whatever to do with the provisions of the Treaty. That is to be framed under the provisions of the Treaty with Germany by the Peace Conference. But if it is done, when the work has been accomplished, then it has to be put under the guardianship of the League of Nations in the sense that whenever there is a dispute between the two parties of the Treaty, that dispute shall come before the League of Nations. Those three points we are carrying out in obedience to the Terms of the Treaty of Versailles. But our activities, such as they are, have not been confined merely to what we were obliged to do under the Treaty, and we have had before us at all events three or four important questions which are not imposed upon us by Treaty obligations.
    The first of those is an attempt to deal with the threatened invasion of zymotic disease from the East to the West, especially in Poland. Any gentlemen who have followed these questions know quite well that typhus has raged both in Russia and Poland, transported into Poland from Russia with great severity. They may also be aware that our leading medical authorities are seriously alarmed as to what is going to happen in Central Europe and the countries that may be west of Central Europe in the coming winter. It is in the winter that typhus rages with special severity. It is therefore during the summer most important to carry out these steps and take those preventive measures by which the population of Europe may be protected from such calamities of those with which our forefathers were only too familiar in the days when the plague was a matter of constant and fatal recurrence. We have done our best in the matter. We have acted through the Red Cross societies. In addition to that we have made an appeal to the nations forming the union to provide funds, such funds

    1499
    as are necessary for staying the plague I ought to say, in justice to the Polish Government, that they have, by all accounts which we have received, spent money freely and with great public spirit and skill in doing what they could in the matter; but the common opinion seems to be that their efforts alone are not sufficient, and, indeed, it would be entirely unfair to throw upon them unassisted the whole burden of acting as the guardians of the health of the West without the West doing something to aid them in this all-important task.
    We have therefore carefully examined the expert advice at our disposal as to what sum is necessary to stay the evil. We believe the £2,000,000 sterling would be sufficient, and we are of opinion that of that £2,000,000 sterling an immediate expenditure of £250,000 is obligatory, or, at all events, of the very greatest importance, if the best results are to be got out of our endeavours. We have no power to tax the nation, and it is by no means clear at present, if we had power to tax them, at what rate they should severally be taxed. It is quite evident that there are nations who by their geographical position are profoundly and immediately interested in the sanitary condition of Central Europe. Their neighbour's house is burning, and they are in imminent danger of suffering from the conflagration. Other members of the League of Nations, on the other hand, are separated by wide oceans and illimitable spaces from the scene of difficulty, and if we were to attempt to levy a contribution on that scale the differences would be very great between the two categories. We felt, especially in the absence of that scientific inquiry to which I adverted earlier in my speech, that it would be quite impossible to lay down with precision what the nations ought to contribute. Our appeal, therefore, will be an appeal to their generosity, and I cannot doubt—I refuse to doubt—that when that appeal is made by the League of Nations to its component members it will receive an adequate response. If I am right in that prophesy I hope that the action we have taken may really be of first-class importance in preserving Europe from a repetition of such horrors as those which halved the population somewhere about the middle of the 14th century, and which
    1500
    continued to decimate the population for centuries afterwards.
    Another task also of an important nature which we have undertaken, and which I think could not be carried to a successful issue or so successful an issue by any other machinery than that of the League of Nations, is the return of prisoners from Russia and Siberia to Europe, and from Europe back to Russia and Siberia. That has been a matter on which the Foreign Offices of various countries have corresponded, but until it was taken in hand by the League of Nations I do not know that progress was as great as it might have been. What we have done I think is known to the public. It was stated in the newspapers; it is contained in a very interesting report of Dr. Nansen. We asked him to undertake the duty. He was public spirited enough to answer to our appeal, and I am convinced that no more fitting man in Europe or America exists than Dr. Nansen to carry out this work. He is universally esteemed; his name is one of world-wide reputation. No sinister motive can be attributed to him in any circumstances, and there could be no suspicion of sinister motive behind the country to which he belongs. It is a pure act of public-spirited labour, a labour which he has undertaken, and, so far as we are able to judge, he has undertaken with singular success. And I have every hope that there will be a large return of prisoners of war to their homes, and that with their return there will be an end of the infinite domestic unhappiness and misery which in itself is a disturbing cause of no small magnitude and which keeps the unhappy populations in Central Europe in a constant ferment. If I am right, and if I do not over-praise—and I do not think I do—the action taken by the League of Nations in this matter, they may congratulate themselves at all events that in the first few months of their exisence they have done something of really material importance in the diminution of human suffering.
    Another matter which has come under our consideration is the position of international finance. Everybody knows that this is a cause of the profoundest anxiety to experts, and those who are not experts have nevertheless sufficient occular evidence of the suffering which the present condition of Europe inflicts upon its populations. What we are suffering from,

    1501
    least of all perhaps in this country, what Europe is suffering from at this moment is the result of many and complex causes. Into those I am not going to enter. Among those complex causes few, if any, are more important than the absolute dislocation of credit, and with the dislocation of credit the impossibility of restoring normal commercial and industrial conditions to a world which lives by commerce and industry. I do not know what inquiry will bring forth, but I am certain that inquiry is desirable. Accordingly, there is to be a meeting of experts from all countries—I hope even America will be unofficially represented—and that meeting will be held at no distant date at Brussels. If it does nothing else it will elicit a full, clear and impartial statement, which all may read, of the actual financial position of the world at this moment. To diagnose the disease is no doubt a very different thing from curing the disease, but accurate diagnosis is the first stage towards cure, and that stage I think we shall be able to take with the machinery we have endeavoured to set up.
    The last point that comes into this division of my speech refers to what we have done in relation to Armenia. It is perfectly clear to anybody who knows any of the facts that Armenia, remote as it is from all power of being reached by fleets, not easily reached by armies, even if armies were in existence to reach it, presents a tragic and dreadful problem to all statesmen of Europe and America. For that problem we do not pretend that we can find any great and satisfactory solution, at all events for the moment. We have no troops; we have no financial resources. We can neither send armies there, nor if we could send them have we the means of paying them. But we have offered to the Supreme Council to do our best to find a European mandatory who will undertake the task of becoming the mandatory for Armenia, if the nations of the world or some of the nations of the world are prepared to find certain resources to enable it to carry out its duties. More, I believe, it was impossible for us to do; that we have done. How it will all work out in future it is impossible to say, but I do not believe, having given the best consideration I can to this perennial tragedy of Armenia, there is anything more effective that can be done to save the remnants of that unhappy people from final destruction.
    1502
    That, in very rough outline, represents the labours of the League of Nations during its first two months of existence. I doubt whether any wise man will have thought it was capable of much more. I should almost hope that many wise men would think that what it has done is even more than might reasonably have been expected. Nobody is more conscious than myself that, with the problems of disease in Central Europe, the establishment of courts of appeal, the preparation for the diminution of armaments, and all the other topics I have surveyed, however important they may be and however satisfactory may be the progress that we have made, the work of the League of Nations is one not only of infinite importance but almost of infinite difficulty. We suffer, perhaps, from criticism of various kinds more than is quite just or reasonable. We have two sets of enemies besides our candid friends. Of our candid friends I say nothing. Candid friends are in every walk of life. Mankind has suffered from them from the beginning of time, or, at all events, from the time of Job downwards, and no one has yet found a very satisfactory method of dealing with them. I do not mean to add my mite or my contribution to the failure of centuries, and I mean to say nothing about the candid friend.
    We have two sets of enemies. The first are those who frankly dislike the League. Sometimes they are what are called "men of the world." A man of the world usually is a man who believes nothing good of the world, and who not only believes nothing good of the world, but does not think that the world is capable of improvement. I share neither of those views. It is perfectly true in one sense that you will not, within measurable centuries, alter the raw material of human nature. It is there, and you have to make the best of it. But do not tell me that, because the raw material of human nature remains unchanged, human society is never to be improved. It is not only contrary to all faith and hope but contrary to all experience. It has improved and it can improve; and I believe that if the League, that is to say, if the nations working in concert through the League, really have the insight and the patriotism to use the machinery which they have created to the best ability, you will gradually build up a state of public feeling which in the

    1503
    absence of any positive sanction will make such disaster as we have gone through in the last five years absolutely impossible. That, at least, is my belief, and that is the answer I would give to my friend the man of the world, who I am sure would be most uncomfortable if you now made him travel from London to York in the same conditions of security as those in which his great grandfather travelled at the end of the 18th or the beginning of the 19th century. It is quite obvious that you can improve the structure of society. Among the enemies I have to count those who in some mysterious way have persuaded themselves that war is a great moraliser. Of course all misfortunes can be turned to good account. Disease in that sense is a great moraliser; poverty in that sense may be a great moraliser. That is to say, there are natures who in a time of trial rise to heights, which, perhaps, they did not themselves dream of before the trial came. But if any sane man thinks that that is the road to progress, if he thinks that by multiplying misfortunes you are going to promote morality, he surely should meditate upon his theories within the boundaries of an asylum rather than attempt to add them to the general stock of national wisdom.
    There is another and the last of the class of open enemies. They have a sort of semi-moral, semi-scientific varnish with which they cover their strange creed. Having read in their Darwin that there is a struggle for existence, and that through that struggle for existence a great many important morphological developments have occurred, they seem to think that a state of universal warfare is really the best method of attaining universal progress. They entirely mistake Darwin, they entirely mistake morality, and they talk a sort of nonsense which, I regret to say, a great many people who should have known better talked in Germany. But they had a reason for talking it; they wanted to justify universal domination, and by the struggle for existence, in which the best survived, they meant the struggle; between Germany and the world in which Germany survived. Therefore, they may talk bad science and bad morality, but there was a reason in what they said; at any rate, a reason for saying it. But the gentlemen with whom I have
    1504
    talked, and of whom I speak, have no such reason, and I really think they do nothing but harm by spreading this sham philosophy among the young and ignorant. These enemies are serious enough, but I do not believe that they touch the heart of the people at all. I think they float about and make small talk and feeble epigrams which add to their social stock-in-trade, but I do not believe that they touch the general convictions of the nation or of any nation. Much more dangerous, in my opinion, are the people who do not object to the League of Nations because it goes too far, but who object to the League because in their opinion it does not go far enough. They think it is so powerless as to be utterly contemptible. Those are the real enemies of whom I am afraid, because I am perfectly certain that if they are allowed to have their way they will destroy the League altogether. The other people may damage it here and there, but they do not go to the root of it; but if what I may call the fanatics are allowed to dictate the policy of the League, I am perfectly certain they will blow it to pieces. Perhaps the word "fanatic" has an offensive flavour. I do not mean it to be offensive and if it is I withdraw it.
    I was present yesterday when friends of mine advanced theories that absolutely staggered me, and which, if they take hold of the real supporters of the League, will shatter it for ever. Their view is that there should be great naval, military and air forces at the bidding of the League, to be used, I suppose, at a moment's notice as soon as any threat of war occurred, and they want those to be levied, as far as I understand, by compulsory action by the Members of the League, so that they want to create a super-State armed with all the military trappings of a military Empire. It is perfectly true that the objects which they had in view were admirable objects: nevertheless the League of Nations would cease to be a League of Nations, and it would become a series of subordinate States under one super-State. The very name League of Nations shows that those who framed the Pact had no such notion in their minds. Their whole view was of a different character, and I am quite confident they were right. This problem did not go unconsidered at the Paris Conference. I was not a member of the Committee which dealt with these things, but I know they had it under review, and I know

    1505
    they most carefully considered it and I know they absolutely rejected it, and very much for the reasons or some of the reasons I have given.
    Please remember that if the League of Nations is not a world-league, half its value—more than half its value—goes. One great nation is at present standing out of the League. I neither criticise nor enquire into the motives which make that policy, but undoubtedly one of the motives that induced America to pause before it entered the League was the idea that her national sovereignty was fatally or dangerously interfered with. Yet with that example before them, and with that tremendous case and tremendous instance of the evil done by over-pressing the claims of the League, there are enthusiasts for it who say it is no use unless you create over the Sovereign States of the world some super-State which is to direct the forces levied, paid for, or officered, by those sovereign States, and which is to control the free governments of free peoples subject only, I suppose, to an occasional meeting of the League in full confidence and such check as the Council of the League may conceivably impose. I think those schemes are really wild, and nobody who tries to carry them out can come to any other conclusion. I do not think I need really press that further, because I doubt whether there are very many people in this Committee who wish to see this scheme carried out. If there are, I would ask them to just picture what this force is to be, how it is to be levied, how it is to be composed, in what language the words of command will be given, where the barracks are to be situated to house the soldiers, and where the harbours are to be situated to hold the fleet, and how are you going to get a general staff to command it, and how are you going to have a plan of action, and how are you going to deal with the military problem, which, treated as a military problem, would stagger any students of military history. It is not easy to work a few nations together in one theatre of war, but if you are going to work five and forty nations, speaking forty languages, how are you going to try and house them and lodge them, recruit for them, pay for them, officer them, direct them, staff them? The thing really breaks down at once. You would require to have an
    1506
    executive perpetually sitting and a Ministry which would have to meet as often as the Cabinet of my right hon. Friend if you are going to rule the world in this way. You cannot do it. It is not the plan of the League of Nations and, believe me, it is not a plan with which the League of Nations is compatible for a year.
    There have been many criticisms of the League of Nations, the point of which was that the League should have interfered effectively in Europe, as it is at present, in certain critical cases. If anybody will read in a candid spirit through the Pact they will see that what was present to the minds of the framers of that Pact was a condition of things utterly different from that which at this moment prevails. The Pact contemplated a Europe re-arranged in accordance with, and as near as possible, to the legitimate interests of the case. Nationality, self determination, commercial interests, strategic interests—all were taken account of, and the map to the best of the ability of the Supreme Council was to be one which could be sustained, and those who framed the League of Nations were given the duty of sustaining it. Those who framed the League of Nations never contemplated that they were to re-arrange Europe. They contemplated that when Europe was rearranged they should step in and see that it was maintained on principles of peace and equity. That was the framework No doubt the settlement of Europe, which all of us hoped would be a matter of a few months, has extended, with infinite harm to everybody, for a year and a half, and is not completed yet. That has been the cause of untold misfortune. But because the condition of things contemplated by the Pact has net come into force, do not ask the League of Nations to be as efficient as I hope it will be when those conditions appear.
    What are the weapons which the League of Nations is asked to use, what are the means which you put at its disposal? They are not the fleets, the armies, and the air forces contemplated by some of my hon. Friends. They are very different. The two main instruments were delay and publicity. Delay and publicity are not instruments which you can use in the middle of a great crisis. They are instruments to use in a peaceful world which somebody desires to disturb.

    1507
    Delay, discussion, publicity, public opinion, commercial boycott, and arbitration and, if they fail and in the last resort, then military measures. That is an admirable system, but it is not an admirable system for dealing with all the eventualities which are now going on before our eyes, or all the troubles from which we are now suffering. Quite the contrary. It is entirely unfit to deal with those. You cannot, and no rational man would suggest that the League of Nations is constituted to deal with a world in chaos, or with any part of the world which is in pure chaos. That must be dealt with either by the Supreme Council or in other ways. The League of Nations may give occasional assistance, frequent assistance, effective assistance, but the League of Nations is not, and cannot be, a complete instrument for bringing order out of chaos. Those who would throw upon it that burden in the name of peace, in the name of the League of Nations, and in the name of co-operation amongst civilised peoples are doing the greatest disservice they could to the League of Nations. The League of Nations will serve you well if you do not overload it; at least that is my hope, my faith, my belief. If you overload it you will assuredly break it down. Even now it is maimed and crippled by the fact that, unhappily, we have not succeeded in inducing, so far, the United States to take part in our labours. If you either allow the League of Nations to be used as an instrument by the free nations of the world in their own party warfare, or if they try and throw upon it burdens which it is ill-fitted to bear, on them will be the responsibility of destroying the most promising effort in the direction of the renewal of civilisation which mankind has ever yet made. I hope that no share or fraction or fragment of that responsibility will fall either upon this House or upon this country.
    Mr. ASQUITH: This is the first occasion on which this House has had the opportunity of considering the status and reviewing the work, so far as it has progressed, of the League of Nations, that great international instrument on the future of which a year ago so many hopes and expectations were fixed. I do not think, speaking at any rate for myself,
    1508
    I differ fundamentally, or indeed at all, from the definition which the right hon. Gentleman has given in the concluding passages of his speech of the scope of the normal and proper activities of the League. I am not aware who the persons were he had in his mind, and who were for what he called magnifying and inflating the functions of the League to a degree that would make it unworkable. I have always maintained that the true conception of the League is this. It must be a representative body in time and as soon as possible of all the civilised powers of the world. Given that body there should be no distinction of status or authority between the great States or the small States. Its main, paramount, supreme function should be to preserve the peace of the world by preventing and if need be settling any differences, and its sanction—for, after all, you must have sanction in the last resort for any authority of the kind—would be, not the maintenance of a military and naval force to be used as occasion might arise, but its sanction would be, first of all, the coercive weight of the common will and general opinion of the civilised world, and next, if there should be States or powers obstinate enough and recalcitrant enough to oppose that general will, then certainly, in the vast majority, if not in all, cases, you would have adequate means of bringing them to sense and to a recognition of their obligations by the application of what the right hon. Gentleman has called the commercial boycott, that is, of economic pressure. You do not exclude, and you never could exclude, the use of force in the last resort. I do not like to quote myself, but to show that I am not enunciating a novel doctrine, I may remind the House, or rather I will quote some words I used as long ago as February last, at the very inception of the matter here in London, when I said:
    "Any League of Nations really worthy of the name must zealously respect the sovereignty of States, great or small, which are members of the partnership within their own domain and over their own affairs. Subject to that condition—and that is a governing condition—the League of Nations should be recognised as being the ultimate and controlling authority both over international disputes and, what is not less important, over international compacts."
    That, I believe, is a very fair general definition and description of the functions

    1509
    which the League should perform. I do not think there is any real difference of opinion amongst us about that. The right hon. Gentleman has given us an interesting account of the work which has actually been done by the League during the six months or so of its actual operative existence. I agree with him that most of the things it has done are distinct steps on the road to improvement, and there are two in particular which I would single out, if I may, as especially deserving of the sympathy and commendation of this House and the country. The first and perhaps the most important is the establishment, which is now on its way and which cannot come, of course, in a day or even in a month, of a permanent Court of International Justice. That is an essential part of the effective machinery of any such League. The second, which, though it is directed, we hope, to a more temporary and transient phase, is for the moment, at any rate, equally urgent, is the international economic inquiry which some of us have pressed for for a long time past. I hail both of these proceedings on the part of the League as full of hope for the future.
    Before I proceed to make one or two criticisms of the things which have not been done and which I think ought to have been done, let me say, to make myself perfectly clear, that I quite recognise that it is not part and was never intended to be part of the functions of the League of Nations to take a hand in the negotiation of the Peace Treaties. That was never any part of its functions. It would lead to duplication of duties and would be attended by any amount of unnecessary friction, and it would really relieve the Governments concerned of a responsibility which primarily rests upon them and not upon any corporate assembly like the League. I have never said, and I shall never say, anything to suggest that the League of Nations ought to have taken a hand in the negotiations. That must be left, quite properly, to the Powers which were negotiating the Treaties of Peace, but not inconsistent with that, there are certain duties cast upon the League by the Covenant which it might be called upon to discharge before the negotiations for peace were finally concluded. The first—and it has been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman just now—is that
    1510
    contained in Article 8, the opening words of which are:
    "The members of the League recognise that the maintenance of peace requires the reduction of national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations."
    I gather from what my right hon. Friend has said that there is a committee of experts sitting under the supervision of the League to deal with this matter, but, as he very rightly remarked himself, it is not a matter primarily for experts. They may show you ways and means, but it is a matter of policy, in which the nations constituent members of the League ought to exercise the predominant authority. As regards our late enemies, Germany, Austria, and Turkey, the Treaties of Peace themselves provide a very drastic limitation of their armed forces and the equipment of those forces for the years to come. I do not know—I should very much doubt—whether it would be possible, even in an ideal system, consistently with the interests of the maintenance of internal order and functions of that kind, to reduce to a much lower figure the armaments of those countries. I doubt it. If it is possible, be it so, and we should all be glad; but all the more is it incumbent on the nations which are not under any such Treaty disability themselves to set the example, and to show the way in the direction of reduction, both in numbers and in equipment. I earnestly hope—this is not the occasion, but there will be one very soon in which we may discuss the question in regard to our own obligations—but I very much hope that the great Powers who were victorious in the War, and who are now represented on the Council of the League, will not be slow to set an example, not only in the way of suggesting to others, but by their own practice, of what disarmament really ought to be.
    On that point I hope there may be no difference of opinion, but now I come to another Article of the Covenant, in regard to which I am not quite sure that I follow the argument of my right hon. Friend—Article 11:
    "Any war or threat of war, whether immediately affecting any of the members of the League or not, is hereby declared a matter of concern to the whole League, and the League shall take any action that may be deemed wise and effectual to safeguard the

    1511
    peace of nations. In case any such emergency should arise, the Secretary-General shall, on the request of any member of the League, forthwith summon a meeting of the Council."
    I quite, agree with what my right hon. Friend said just now, that that Article did not contemplate what he conveniently and compendiously described as the steps taken for the re-arrangement of the map of Europe in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty, which might incidentally lead to friction, but it did apply, and it must apply, and to my mind it is impossible to contend that it does not apply, to such a case as the case of the recent aggressive action on the part of Poland, in which the condition laid down by my right hon. Friend was not complied with, but where Poland was going beyond the boundaries, deliberately and wantonly, which had been assigned to her, and Poland was herself a party, being one of the signatories, to the Covenant of the League of Nations. It appears to me, under the interpretation which the right hon. Gentleman himself has placed upon the Article, that this was clearly a case in which the League had the power to intervene which was contemplated by the Covenant as a case in which it would be their duty to intervene. We have not yet had, in this House or outside, any satisfactory reason why in this first and really crucial test case of the efficacy of this part of the Covenant, the League, or those members who have the greatest authority in the Council of the League, stood by in silence and inertia while this aggressive enterprise on the part of Poland was embarked upon.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: They sent a telegram of congratulations.
    5.0 P.M.
    Mr. ASQUITH: It is, of course, an unfortunate fact that the operations were conducted, as we now know, to some substantial extent with the munitions that had been provided by some of the parties to the Covenant, and which were being used, I am ready to believe, contrary to the intention with which they were supplied, but, in point of fact, the aggressive power, Poland, was substantially equipped by the assistance she had received from the Western Powers. I should like to know on what ground it is maintained that that case was not a case which fell within Article 11, and, if so, why the League of Nations took no action in the
    1512
    matter. Let me here say, parenthetically, that when I speak of the League of Nations and when I criticise the action or the inaction of the League, I am not, of course, making any attack upon the gentlemen who for the time being constitute the Council. The League of Nations is largely what the Great Powers choose to make it, both in personnel and in procedure and conduct, and therefore, when I say the League of Nations ought to have done this or ought not to have done that, the responsibility, of course, rests on the Powers whom the League represents, the responsibility to carry out the solemn Articles of the Covenant by which they are bound.
    But equally important, and perhaps indeed more important, are the set of questions that arise under Article 22. We had some discussion about this yesterday, but it was confined to a comparatively narrow compass. Let me remind the Committee of the introductory words of Article 22:
    "To those colonies and territories which, as a consequence of the late War, have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them, and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples from a sacred trust of civilisation, and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant."
    It was therefore clearly contemplated by the parties to this Pact that in the carrying out of the terms of the Treaty of Peace, so far as they related to the future fortunes and government of territories and nationalities which correspond to that description, the League of Nations should come in and that the League of Nations, in fact, should be the controlling and the responsible authority. If there were any doubt as to the interpretation of the first paragraph, it is completely set to rest by what follows:
    "The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who, by reason of their resources, their experience, or their geographical position, can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League."
    Mandatories on behalf of the League—not Mandatories on behalf of anybody else. I will not read the remainder of

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    the Article, but I summarise its effect in these simple propositions, that what was contemplated by this Covenant was this, and nothing short of this: The question whether or not in the case of territories or populations of that kind, a mandate should be given was a question not for the Powers, but for the League. Next, the character of each particular mandate was to be determined by the League, as expressly provided by the third paragraph of the Article. Further:—
    "The degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory shall, if not previously agreed upon by the members of the League, be explicitly defined in each case by the Council."
    Lastly, in order to secure that the mandate so conferred, so defined, and so limited shall be honestly and effectively carried out, the Mandatory is required to render to the Council an annual report in reference to the territory committed to its charge. That is the procedure which was contemplated, and, indeed, solemnly agreed to by the parties to this agreement. Has it, in fact, been followed? Is it, in fact, being followed in regard to these matters? We had a case yesterday—a small case, it is true—in which an agreement had been entered into, which recited an alleged mandate not given by the League, but given by the Allied and Associated Powers to the British Empire, in which the terms of the mandate were settled by joint agreement between them, behind the backs and without the knowledge of anybody else, and provision was made of a more or less detailed kind for the administration of this territory in the future. Is that consistent, or is it not consistent, with the Covenant? Ought the League or ought it not, before that hypothetical mandate had been embodied in an agreement, to have been consulted and gone through the various stages mentioned in the Article to determine what the mandate should be? It is no answer to say of a thing which has been embodied in an agreement, confirmed by Act of Parliament here, and in two of our Dominions, which is full of the most minute and detailed provisions, "Well, the League may repeal it". That is not what was contemplated or agreed to; on the contrary, the initiative was to be with the League, and the control and intepretation of the mandate throughout was to remain with the League.
    1514
    This does not apply only to the small case of the little island we were discussing yesterday. I should like to ask what is the case at this moment with regard to Palestine? We are told that arrangements have been made for the future administration of Palestine upon a footing that Great Britain is the Mandatory, and a very distinguished and highly valued late Colleague of my own, Sir Herbert Samuel—than whom I am sure no better man could possibly have been selected—has been very wisely chosen to act as High Commissioner, and he has already departed on his mission. I do not know anything except hearsay about the particular terms of that mandate, but has it been submitted to the League of Nations? Does it proceed from the League of Nations? Is Sir Herbert Samuel going there as Mandatory of the League of Nations, or is he going there as an officer of the British Government, selected by His Majesty's Ministers to perform a duty, not to the League of Nations, but to those who despatched him from these shores? That is a very simple question, and surely demands a very simple answer.
    Let me take the case of Mesopotamia. Of course, there is a great deal to be said about our adventures in Mesopotamia, from a totally different point of view, when we come to deal with the Army Estimates. I am not going into that to-day; it would be entirely foreign to the subject of our present discussion. But are we to understand that this country has received a mandate for Mesopotamia? If so, by whom was the mandate conferred? Does it emanate from the League of Nations? Has it the authority, direct or indirect, expressed or implied, of the League of Nations? Have its terms been settled in accordance with the terms of this Covenant by the League of Nations, and are the persons to be entrusted with carrying out the duties and responsibilities to be responsible to the Council? These are matters of the highest importance Otherwise—I take a hypothetical case—you might have a so-called mandate of this kind which was really the result of a bargain, and a bargain with financial and commercial aspects between Powers not directly interested in the country which was to be the sphere of the operation of the mandate. I put that as a hypothetical case, but it is one which, in this loose

    1515
    interpretation which at present prevails as to the terms of this Article, may very readily become an effective one, with very disastrous consequences.
    I have said that I am not making an attack on the League of Nations. I have said before, and I repeat to-day, that I think it would be a very good thing, in the interest of all parties concerned, if the Supreme Council, which at present dominates the affairs, not only of Europe but of the world, were to wind up its operations with as little delay as may be, and this ambiguous state of things, by which the League of Nations can be called into activity at the will of the Supreme Council, or left in inactivity, were brought to a speedy end. But what I am concerned about, and what, I think, this House ought to be concerned about, is that, having solemnly pledged ourselves, as we have, to this Covenant, which many of us hope and believe will, if performed honestly, ex animo, by all parties concerned, have infinite possibilities of good for the peace of the world, in this early stage of the history of its practical execution, there shall not be a shadow of doubt in anybody's mind here, or among our critics abroad, that we in Great Britain, at any rate, are doing our best straightforwardly to carry out the objects of the League.
    Mr. G. BARNES: I think the House may be congratulated to-day upon two things—first, that we have the prospect of an exhaustive and, I am sure, what will be an illuminating, Debate upon this most important question; and secondly, we have had from the Lord President of the Council a most illuminating address on the work so far of the League of Nations. I shall return in a little while to the point in regard to the relations of the Government to the League of Nations and the extent to which the Government is going to take such steps as may be sufficient to make the League really helpful towards the peace of the world. I want to deal just briefly with what has fallen from the Lord President of the Council. I take it he was speaking rather for the League of Nations Council and not for the Government.
    Mr. BALFOUR indicated assent.
    Mr. BARNES: In referring to what has been done by the League of Nations Council, the right hon. Gentleman divided
    1516
    his subject into two parts—those things which were obligatory, and those things that were not obligatory—and, with regard to the first, it seemed to me that the most important thing which came under that definition was that of the Registration of Treaties. While I think of it, I may say I think there was an extraordinary omission on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. He had not a word to say on the work done by the Labour Organisation, which is a section of the League. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman had a good deal to think of in regard to other matters, and it is quite reasonable that he should have forgotten that part, which rather lay outside the exact scope of the Council of the League. It is a separate organisation, but still quite a part of the League of Nations, and, in any review of the work of the League of Nations so far, I think that should form a part.
    Mr. BALFOUR: I agree.
    Mr. BARNES: I think it ought to be said that, under the ægis of this Labour Organisation, there has already been held a Conference at Washington at which, I think, eight conventions were drawn up; that most of those conventions have already been the subject of Debate in the Parliaments of the world, including our own; and that only a few nights ago we passed a Bill to give effect to three of these conventions dealing with the conditions of the labour of women and children throughout the world. I venture to say the work of the Labour Organisation will be one of the most important connected with the League of Nations, because it is work of a positive character, and brings the nations together in goodwill and co-operation, and because those who have been afraid of foreign competition, or, at all events, have used the idea of foreign competition as a bar to the improvement of labour conditions, have that argument taken out of their mouths, enabling, as it does, all classes in all nations to come together and march forward concurrently, leaving each nation in the same position as before with regard to the world's markets. I look forward with great hope to the work of the Labour Organisation as one of the agencies by which, in the first place, we may bring the nations together in a spirit of co-operation of all classes in the nation. I look, I say, upon that work as an alternative to the class-war which has been preached so much amongst

    1517
    us here, and in other countries. The work, I hope, is going to have a great effect in lifting life and labour to a higher plane of being.
    I come away from my own little corner, and I should like to say a word in recognition of what the right hon. Gentleman has said in regard to some of the duties undertaken, as well as those laid upon them. Of these, I attach the most importance to the question of the Registration of Treaties. I rejoice that we have got so far on the road towards world unity, on the road to fair and open dealing, and that we now have got a special machine set up to register Treaties. I take it, therefore, that in the future, Treaties made between country and country will be known to all the world and there will be no hugger-mugger business, such as has caused so very much trouble in the past. I also welcome heartily the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman that at last an International Court has been set up by which disputes between the nations may be tried on the lines of commonsense. I agree with my right hon. Friend behind me (Lord R. Cecil), who in this House—and elsewhere—repeatedly has said that one of the first things necessary to lessen the risk of war is to get sufficiently delay to enable people to think over the cause of the quarrel. I take it that the object in setting up this Court is to make provision so that all people will be under an obligation to state their cause of quarrel before the fighting begins. I feel sure if they had to do that, there would be very few cases in which the fighting would begin. We all remember those muddle-headed philosophers in Germany who before the War glorified war as good in itself. Immediately the War began they all got busy in trying to persuade the German people that the War had been forced upon them. They then had to admit that war was not a good thing but a bad thing, and they professed themselves, as did everybody else in that country, as against war. I feel sure that if any party to a quarrel had to plead in that way before an international court, and all the facts were put before the public and known to the world, then very few wars would have to be waged.
    In the non-obligatory duties undertaken by the League of Nations Council, to my mind the most important is the release of war prisoners. I was reading
    1518
    in the newspapers either yesterday or to-day, that there are over 200,000 men, natives of Germany and Austria and other countries, still in Russia, and that, on the other hand, there are, roughly, about the same number, nearly a quarter of a million, of Russians in the countries I have mentioned, or other countries. It is impossible to estimate the amount of domestic misery, privation, and suffering covered by these figures. I think all of us will wish the best of luck to Dr. Nansen in working in this matter, not for his own particular country, but for the good of humanity, in getting these men back to their own families as soon as possible. I would like to say a word about the statement of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the deputation which waited upon him and others yesterday and put the case forward for an international police force. In spite of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I plead guilty to being one of those who look forward to the time when there will be some international authority speaking for the moral sense of mankind, and not only for that, but having some material force at their disposal whereby they can make their decrees effective.
    What do we find at the present time? Even during the last few months, since the Council of the League has been in operation, it has been asked to undertake certain business. It was asked to protect Armenia. What did it say? That it could not undertake to protect Armenia, because it had no men, no money, no resources whereby to protect anybody or anything. I trust that is not a condition of things that is going to be permanent. If so, then the League must inevitably become a futility. For my own part, I look forward to the time when, if it is found necessary for the League to undertake mandates or to administer an area such as the Dardanelles—which was talked of a little while ago—that the League Council will have under its control some naval and military force, and some monetary resources whereby it can discharge those duties effectively, not for a congeries of nations, each and every one of them filled by the national idea. I trust that the League of Nations will be able to act as a unit. It does seem to me that that after all, with due respect to the right hon. Gentleman, is the ideal for which

    1519
    we ought to strive, and not that each nation should have regard only to its own sovereignty; that we should proceed along lines upon which we have travelled a long way already, as in the postal regulations, and many other things which might be mentioned, including some of the things mentioned this afternoon. We ought to travel along that road with a view to co-operation in many things on the part of the nations, and ultimately of co-operation on the part of all the nations for the biggest of all things, that is the preservation of the peace of the world! I see no means to-day by which that can be carried out effectively except by arming the League with some international police force, in the first place—if you like—as an advanced guard. At all events, in some way the League of Nations must be armed, and have force behind it, so as to make its work effective.
    I come now to the part appertaining to the Government rather than to the Council of the League of Nations itself I make no complaint against the Council of the League of Nations. I daresay it has done all as then known for which it was started in Paris—all of it—but my complaint is against the Government, that the Government has not submitted a good deal more to it, as might have been done I speak from the point of view of one who deplores the inactivity of the League of Nations Council and which still more deplores the causes of that inactivity, or what, to my mind, has at least been the cause, the lack of proper support on the part of the Allied nations. I was almost going to say the lack of goodwill. I cannot, however, conceive that the Governments, knowing as they do more than other people from the inside the horrors of war, should for a moment withhold their good-will from the League of Nations. Therefore I may be mistaken, but if I am right in my theory they have certainly not supported the League as they ought to have done. I assume it is, their timidity or that the League of Nations is not regarded by them as being efficient for the purpose in view. At all events, my mind goes back to the time when the Governments professed to be in favour of the League of Nations. They are now passing by the League of Nations on the other side. I go back in my memory to the early days
    1520
    of last year in Paris when the Commission, presided over by President Wilson, submitted the draft of the Covenant to the plenary meeting of the Peace Conference. On that occasion President Wilson said:
    "Something that day had been born which would bring peace to the world"—
    or words to that effect, only much more elaborate. In introducing that document he spoke in high terms of the document itself, and said that the League of Nations born that day was to bring peace to the world. I say nothing more of that address of the President, because, unfortunately, he has been turned down by his own people, and therefore the heroic efforts he has since made to make effective the principles enunciated at Paris have been for the time being made abortive. But there were other countries who were represented on President Wilson's Commission. These are still committed to the pledges made by their representatives. The Noble Lord, the Member for Hitchin, was a member of the Commission, and a distinguished member. He was generally credited—I suppose rightly—with being to a large extent the author of the document. He had been in daily communication with the Government, I suppose—in fact, I know he was—in Paris until that very day. Therefore, we may take it that on that occasion he was speaking as one with authority. What did he say?—
    "In view of the terms of this document, no nation shall go to war with any other nation until every other possible means of settling the dispute shall have been fully and fairly tried. Secondly, under no circumstances shall any nation seek forcibly to disturb the territorial settlements arrived at in consequence of this peace, or to interfere with the political independence of any of the States of the world."
    Those conditions were, as the Noble Lord rightly said, embodied in the document. He assumed, as we all assumed, that those terms would be carried into effect. M. Bourgoise, on behalf of France, and Signor Orlando, for Italy, expressed similar sentiments, only in more florid and rhetorical language. Still they, on behalf of their Governments, expressed their satisfaction with the covenant that had been framed. M. Clemenceau, in winding up the Debate, not only as representing France, but as the representative of what was practically a world conference, also said

    1521
    that he endorsed the document. He asked all of us to have confidence in those representatives of the five powers who would have the matter in hand. With the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Asquith) I think the time has come to inquire how it is that in spite of all these things being said on behalf of the Allied Powers, the world is still convulsed by wars, and that very little has been done by us through the League to stop these wars. I have no right to criticise the representatives of other Powers. In any case, some of these representatives then in Paris have vanished from the scene. Nor is it necessary because the covenant is so framed that any single Power can bring it into operation on certain specified occasions. The right hon. Gentleman opposite quoted Article 11, and, as he rightly said, that Article 11 lays it down that in the event of war or the threat of war any nation can bring the Covenant into operation, and demand a meeting of the Council to discuss the matter. Therefore, it is unnecessary for us to-day to criticise the representatives of other Powers. In fact, we have no business to do anything of the kind. Having regard to the power of any single nation under the Covenant, we have the right to ask how it is that our own Government has not taken the necessary steps to get some of these wars which are going on—we have been told they number between 20 and 30—discussed by the Council of the League of Nations, and, if possible, stopped?
    This Debate is giving rise to some very ugly questions that were raised before the War, and which caused a good deal of commotion, and amongst them is the question of the power and position of the War Lords amongst us. People are asking—in fact, some are asserting that we are more under the control of the War Lords than anybody else. If that is so, then it seems to me that we have sacrified our sons in vain. We know that some of the War Lords, and those in the very highest position, make no bones of their position in regard to the League of Nations. They are perfectly frank about it, and they regard it as a huge joke, a sort of encumbrance, something that can be put out of sight, like an undesirable relative, when big things are on. We know that the people of this country intended the League of Nations for big things, and the biggest
    1522
    of them is the getting and keeping of the peace of the world.
    It seems to me that that is the main thing for which the League of Nations was born. When it was promoted by President Wilson and others, the idea was hailed gladly by the common peoples of all countries as a means of preventing a repetition of a war such as that which began in 1914. The next war would not only be a repetition of that, because science is always putting new weapons and agencies into the hands of mankind, and in the event of another war all these agencies would be used for ill. Before 1914 I used to think that nobody would be so devilish as to make war from the air upon the civilian population. I remember sitting next to Marconi, and he expressed himself as horrified to think that science, including wireless, might be used as a war weapon. We all know how a famous British admiral, about five or six years ago, was trounced in the columns of the "Times" newspaper, because he ventured to suggest that a nation might be wicked enough to use submarines to sink commercial ships at sea. We all know that all these things were done in the War, and we all know that similar things, and perhaps worse, would be done if a war were to take place in twenty or thirty years' time. Therefore we must have it in mind that the next war will be something terrible to contemplate.
    The most irritating war at the present moment is that between Poland and Russia, and it seems to me that the Government have not moved in that matter as they should have done. I endorse what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Asquith), that the Government have not moved in that matter up to the limit of their power. We ought, at least, to get to know the facts about Poland and the war with Russia. The League of Nations Council has discussed the attack upon Persia by Russia. Is it only going to be allowed to discuss things that suit the policy of the Front Bench? The war between Poland and Russia is just as dangerous to the peace of the world, as that between Russia and Persia, and if they are not going to be treated on the same principle, then the inevitable assumption will be drawn that the League of Nations is going to be biassed, and will suffer accordingly

    1523
    in a moral sense. I take credit for having elicited from the Leader of the House the statement that no support has been given to Poland since last October. I view with positive alarm the action of the London dockers, in deciding what goods they shall load and what they shall not load in our ships, although I think they have a true instinct of how the labour of this country should not be applied.
    I want to know how it is that the Government supported Poland up till last October. So far as my memory serves me, the Poles were then outside the boundaries assigned to them, and they were using force to extend their boundaries, and consequently they came under the definition of the Noble Lord, of doing something which was clearly wrong, and not in accordance with the terms of the Covenant. Of course, I accept the word of the Leader of the House, that we have not supported them since last October, and I think it would be an insult to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman was not telling the truth. The question naturally arises, if we are not supporting Poland. who is? It is well within the knowledge of everybody that Poland has been, and probably still is, in a state of semi-starvation, and cannot fight a war on her own account. I remember reading a document issued last summer by Mr. McAlpine, who had been sent out by our own Government to Poland. This gentleman was sent to inquire into the conditions of Poland, and he reported that it was a country ravished by marching and counter-marching of arms, that most of the factories had been stopped, and many burned down, and that general distress existed all over the country.
    Later, I remember reading another document, published by someone representing the working people of Lodz and Warsaw, in which they followed up the description given by Mr. McAlpine, and that document would have melted the heart of a sheriff officer. It told of women and children starving, that they had no work and no raw materials to keep going the industrial machine, and, generally speaking, drew a terrible picture of the condition of Poland, and appealed to us to do something for the Polish people. A country in that condition cannot make war off its own bat. It is being supplied by somebody, and we have a right to know, and we have
    1524
    now reached the stage when we ought to know who is supplying Poland with munitions by means of which she is disturbing the peace of the world. It cannot be Germany or Austria, or Turkey, and therefore we come down to this, that Poland must have been supplied with munitions not last October, but since then, and right up till now, by one or other of the countries with whom we are in league. Our Government should put into operation Article 11 of the Covenant in order to get at the facts. It seems to me that we are slipping back almost insensibly into the evil of intrigue and secrecy which existed before the War, and which spread moral poison among the nations. The League of Nations was in tended to put an end to that sort of things, and to be used for open and fair dealing instead of what I have described. The League might be doing something, and it ought to be doing something to get at the facts. I suggest to the Government that both Poland and Russia should be asked to state their case to the Council of the League of Nations. Poland is a member, and she could not very well refuse to assent to that request.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Why has she not done so?
    Mr. BARNES: She has never applied.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: But why has she not applied?
    Mr. BARNES: I do not know. My point is that, under the provisions of the Covenant of the League of Nations, any country, not only the countries directly at war, can in the interests of peace of the world themselves apply to the League.
    Mr. PALMER: Russia has flouted the League of Nations.
    Mr. BARNES: I am not defending Russia, but I am pointing out that under this Covenant, drawn up to preserve the peace of the world, this country has a right to invoke the aid of the Council of the League of Nations in order to get at the facts, and the ascertaining of the facts would be sufficient to stop the war between Poland and Russia. Therefore I make the suggestion, and I hope it will be passed on to the Prime Minister, that we should make an appeal to the Council of the League of Nations to institute some investigation of the circumstances arising out of the war between Poland and

    1525
    Russia. Of course Russia might decline. But we should have improved our position with our own people and with the democracies of the world.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: She has already declined.
    Mr. BARNES: The Covenant provides that although not a member, a nation can apply to the League and for the purpose of that inquiry she becomes a member.
    Mr. PALMER: May I point out that only recently the League of Nations applied to Russia to allow a peaceful deputation to go there in order to understand the condition of Russia, and the Soviet Government refused.
    6.0 P.M.
    Mr. BARNES: That is quite true, but I do not see the relevance of that point. I am dealing with the responsibility of this country in not operating the League of Nations Covenant in order to get an inquiry into the circumstances of the war between Poland and Russia. It is quite true that the Council of the League suggested the sending of a deputation to Russia and that the Soviet Government declined to receive it. The Russian Government may have some cause for that. I am not defending Russia. I have no love for either Lenin or Trotsky. I believe at the best they are a pair of doctrinaire fanatics who have got the people of Russia by the throat. I also know that at a very critical time of the War they turned the forces at their disposal in favour of our enemies and against us. I want to stop the war, and I contend that it is quite within the province of this country to take the necessary steps to put into operation this Covenant in order to see what can be done to stop this war. Let me say here that I have nothing to advance in favour of the present system of government in Russia. That is their business. Looking back on what we have done in Russia, I do not see anything to be ashamed of, except that we stopped there too long. We could not have come away when the Armistice was signed, as we would thereby have been leaving our friends in the lurch. Some time afterwards we decided to support Koltchak. When the White Terror followed the Red Terror, and was found to be a great deal worse than the Red Terror, it looked as if Koltchak was going
    1526
    to reach Moscow, and we had it in our minds that, by supporting him, we should avoid a repetition in Moscow of what had occurred in Finland. This has all passed. We are not now dealing with the policy of this country towards Russia last year; we are dealing with the actual state of affairs in Russia at the present time, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Balfour) that something might be done under the operation of Article 11 to get Russia and Poland each to state their case to the League of Nations. It is no good waiting until the Russian Government is upset. As a matter of fact, the upsetting of the existing government in Russia has been predicted every other month for the last two years, and yet it seems to me that the Soviet Government is stronger now than it has been at any time. It may be a good or a bad government, but there it is. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, not that he should support the Russian Government, not that he should recognise it, but that he should recognise the bare fact that there is a government in Russia which has been in existence for two years, and which is at war just now with another country and that we should, under the operation of Article 11, make an effort to get the facts with regard to the war brought to light, and brought under the operation of the moral sense of mankind.
    To my mind the League of Nations is the hope of the world. There are some amongst us who look askance at it. I believe Governments regard it as a competitor in the settlement of the world's affairs, and therefore pass it by and would like to shunt it out of the way. There are people amongst us who do not like the League of Nations. They look at it askance, they do not want it to succeed, because they do not want anything to succeed by any other method than violent revolution. There are many amongst us to-day who spend their time in fomenting trouble in the industrial world, not in order to get industrial improvements, but to use industrial grievances for their own ends. There are some, I believe, who would cheerfully do anything in the way of revolution in the hope or belief that something more to their liking might arise from the ruins of our present social order. By belittling the League I believe

    1527
    we are playing into their hands. By exalting the League we shall do something to help its cause forward. I have nothing to say against the League of Nations so far as it has done its part—obligatory or non-obligatory. We wish all success to the good work undertaken by Dr. Nansen. We wish it all good luck in what it is doing in the way of medical research for the benefit of the world. We do not, however, want it to merely concern itself with these comparatively unimportant matters. We want to try and use the League, to lay hold of it so to speak, and to use it for the primary purpose for which it is intended, to prevent a repetition of war with all its horrors and dangers.
    Mr. CLYNES: Anticipating that very many members of the Committee wish to speak on this all-important question, I hope I shall not take part in the Debate for very long in endeavouring to express what I know to be in the minds of hon. Members for whom I may be able to speak on this side of the House. First, I take leave to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council must by this time have passed the point in his long career of distinguished public service when he would be in the slightest degree moved by words of praise. I want on behalf of my hon. Friends, however, to record their very warm appreciation of the services which we are certain he has rendered to the cause of the League of Nations by his speech this afternoon. The second part of that speech particularly is a contribution of weighty arguments, and I am sure the cause will be far advanced by it. This House unfortunately, on a number of occasions in recent months, has had to discuss this question of the League of Nations, not on its merits, but in relation to certain acts of omission or commission on the part of the Government. Thereby, I fear, the League of Nations question has suffered. Members have been content to devote themselves, not to the merits of this supreme issue, but to its effect on the action of the Government and the statements which the Minister, under the circumstances, has been obliged to make. It would be for the good of mankind, I think, if, collectively, Members of this House could be absolutely free to fix their attitude and settle absolutely in their own minds what their course of
    1528
    conduct should be on the great question of the League of Nations itself.
    It is bad for the League that we should be driven to mix up this great question with minor matters. I cannot feel that the course of this Debate has differed materially from the course of previous discussions, as the right hon. Gentleman has been obliged to import into it some of those very factors to which I have already referred. We are differing, not as to whether the League should act in a certain set of circumstances, or in a particular instance, but whether there should be a League at all; and I trust that those who take the view that the League is impossible, and that we ought not to maintain it or establish it, will address themselves in the course of this discussion to the second part of the speech of the Lord President of the Council. I do not want to appear to upbraid the House for its attitude on this question, but I cannot avoid seeing that there are many Members of it, nominally supporters of the Government, who have not given that encouragement and support to the Government on this question to which it is entitled. They have treated this matter too lightly; they have not addressed themselves to the possibility of bringing this great world-wide international organisation into being. They have, as the right hon. Gentleman argued in the course of his speech, exhibited a feeling that it is impossible for mankind to progress in this direction. Mankind does not expect progress to come of its own accord in this as in many other things. It must have an instrument for it, and in nothing more than this matter is progress more needed for the welfare of the human race in all countries.
    I agree whole-heartedly with what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barnes) said—that this is not merely a matter of making machinery to prevent war. It is the creation of a new spirit and influence in the world's affairs which will make for peace and produce for us an absence of revolution and a guarantee against it. There are indeed influences at work, as my right hon. Friend said, deliberately seeking to frustrate the growth of the seed and to make it impossible, because it is well known that, given a consciousness of the absence of war and of the prospect of war all the world over, the people will settle down to look more effectively and harmoniously

    1529
    after their own interests, and we shall have this further defence against these harmful outside influences which have kept the world in a state of impoverishment and which keep us so far removed from that state of abundance without which we cannot have the economic, financial, and the other improvements and changes that we desire to promote. I say, without any intention of blaming anyone, that it is clear to those of us who observe the circumstances that too many Members have exhibited a lack of faith in the possibility of the scheme of the League. They are, I think, entitled to criticise the Government for what it has failed to do in certain specific instances. The Government might have been more active in the service of the League if there had ben a more unanimous, a more enthusiastic, and a more earnest backing of its action by the rank and file of its supporters. It is this absence of enthusiasm in so great a cause, together with the fact that the machinery of the League such as it is has not been sufficiently used when opportunities have presented themselves, that so far has failed to produce in the country that body of public opinion for which the right hon. Gentleman looked when he said that it was our business to produce in the country a spirit among the people that would give a moral backing and the necessary sanction to the work of the League of Nations.
    I would like to submit to the right hon. Gentleman a point which I fear escaped him in the course of his references to the various permanent committees of the League. I want particularly to draw his attention to the question of disarmament and of the manufacture of armaments. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Governments concerned in the work of these Committees would have the services and advice of experts of great experience. I want to point out we must also have a definite policy on the part of Governments themselves on the questions of armaments and disarmament, because unless we have a definite and clear policy on so important a matter, it is not likely that the people will range themselves behind this or any other Government in any country. Vested interests, undoubtedly, have operated in the past as a provocation to quarrels which finally have culminated in war. How can the right hon. Gentleman expect a spirit of peace to be fostered, and a desire for
    1530
    disarmament to spread, when the Government supports a policy designed further to attract men to military service by dressing them more expensively, by taking them back again to that condition of attractiveness which existed before the Boer War? I cannot see how he can hope to create this spirit of peace by spending, as we are told, an additional £3,000,000 in making the service of the soldier more attractive than it has ever been. I am not, I hope, expressing a single word of reflection upon the soldier as such. No one has cause to do that. The military spirit, however, is not the spirit that we should try to raise behind the work of the League of Nations, and I trusted that something might be said upon this point in relation to the creation of the spirit referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. We are thankful for the information that has been given to us on the work of the League regarding such, not minor, but still not immensely great, matters as the Saar Valley and Danzig. These, however, are scarcely the big jobs which we expected that the League of Nations would make a great boast of. The big things the League of Nations has not yet taken in hand. The League cannot work by itself; it must have the inspiration and the prompting of Governments; and Governments must have a policy which will harmonise with the principles and objects of the League of Nations itself.
    The right hon. Gentleman spoke at some length upon the dangers to which we are exposed because of the disease, sickness and death which follow in the train of war. We are some 20 months from the Armistice. The blockade was maintained against Russia long after Russia was anything like a combatant in the War. If we have a consciousness of the dangers of disease, and if, indeed, our policy now, as I gather from the figure mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman is to spend millions in sheltering ourselves against the risks of those dangers, what is the good of maintaining a policy and applying a blockade which in itself is certain to be a great contribution to the disease, sickness and death which, in their turn, produce the other consequences to which he referred? We cannot pursue the one policy and expect to be absolutely free from the consequences of that policy. I agree very warmly with what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the

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    Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) on the subject of Poland, Russia and the League. As I have addressed myself to this point in previous Debates, I do not want to touch upon it now at any greater length; but I am sure the Lord President will agree that the point put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley demands an answer, and to what he said I would like to make a little addition. Our complaint has been that the aggressive action of Poland might very well have been arrested, and the difference between Russia and herself composed, had the machinery of the League of Nations been used fully and in a timely manner. I want to read to the Lord President the terms of the despatch signed by our own Prime Minister, by the President of the United States, and by three other Prime Ministers, on the 26th May, 1919, and I want to ask, after I have read that, is there any difference between the policy of our Prime Minister and the policy to which he set his hand on that date? It is the despatch that was sent to Admiral Koltchak, and it reads as follows:
    "Fourth, that the independence of Finland and Poland be recognised, and that, in the event of the frontiers and other relations between Russia and these countries not being settled by agreement, they will be referred to the arbitration of the League of Nations."
    That is as clear as language could possibly make it. Why has the difference between Poland and Russia not been approached by this Government in the spirit of that policy? It might have failed, but at least it could have been tried, and the League of Nations would not have been weakened by such a trial I want also to express the pleasure with which I heard the references in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to the question of open diplomacy. I fear, however, that it is not quite in the spirit of his speech that the Government always treat the House of Commons in these matters of high foreign policy. We are all within the memory of pre-War conditions, and can recall the fact that we were then expected to ask for little information—at times for none at all—and to leave these matters of the world's affairs to those who had official responsibility in regard to looking after them. A new view has come, I think properly, into public life. It is that the masses of nations now have to go to war when war occurs, and, as they
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    have to do the fighting on a larger scale than ever, they are entitled to be taken into the confidence of the Government and to know all the commitments into which different Ministers may enter. We pursued a policy prior to the War which inevitably cultivated the military spirit. Open diplomacy must inevitably tend to diminish the military spirit. If we are to return, in any degree whatever, to pre-War conditions, and desert the policy of the League of Nations, we shall be returning to a state which will cultivate the spirit of militarism upon which Germany armed herself and prepared for war so extensively. There is no halfway house between the policy symbolised by the League of Nations and the pre-War condition in respect of relationship between country and country. If there is, it has yet to be indicated. I doubt whether any member of any party in this House would dare to assert that the pre-War relations between country and country, and the manner of arranging diplomatic business between country and country, was good enough for the world and should be continued. I doubt whether any member would assert that it would be wise and proper for mankind to continue in the path trodden before the days of this great War. Therefore, those of us who support the League of Nations say that this alone is the policy which holds the field. Its success depends, so far as our country is concerned, on the Prime Minister and his Government receiving a larger measure of enthusiastic support for this policy than the Government has so far received. I believe, myself, that the ministers who have put their hands to this great document would act fully up to the faith of what is in it, if they could be sure that they have the House of Commons behind them, and the country behind the House of Commons, in carrying out this great purpose for the benefit of mankind.
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down made, with his usual judgment and good sense, one remark with which I very cordially agree. He said that he proposed to discuss the general principles of the League of Nations, and that it was undesirable to bring in questions of the conduct of the Government, in one particular case or another, which would divert our minds from the general question before us. I am sorry that, as in the case of the right

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    hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, he fell into the temptation of adducing at least one instance in which he thought the Government had acted in a way that did not commend itself to him. Article 11 of the League, surely, contemplates a case where peace exists, and peace is broken, and arbitration is then called for. It does not, surely, contemplate a case where there are actual conditions of war; conditions where the power concerned is assailed by a ruthless adversary, and is taking measures which are, perhaps, offensive, but which it considers to be fitting. I am not going to be led into considering those definite cases. I think our general position is that of considering what the League of Nations really means, and what is the allegiance which it claims from each one of us. If this Debate leads to no other good than the speech of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, I think it has done an immense good. I confess myself not as one of those to whom he referred. I am no lover of war. I have no idea that war is a moralising force. I have no wish to imitate those half scientific people who think that a sort of perverted Darwinism, a survival of the fittest, might be brought about by continuous war. I have, however, difficulties and misgivings which I am not ashamed to confess in all seriousness, and I am glad to have from my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council the statement which he made, and which, I confess, carried in many respects very strong conviction. I recognise that the League of Nations has, to use his own phrase, done good service to the amity of nations. I am glad that, as he also said, it has brought help to the cause of open diplomacy, in regard to which I cordially join hands with my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Clynes). I am glad that it has helped to put on the stocks the construction of the Court of International Justice, which will have the great advantage, beyond all other Conferences of the sort, of creating a body which will gradually obtain and exercise an influence over the world. I am glad that it is taking up seriously and earnestly questions of international finance, and of the dangers of disease, and I congratulate it on the advances that have been made.
    I come back to the real question which is raising some doubt in the mind of the
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    Committee. I have had the misfortune now and then to have differences on this point—I hope not fundamental—with one with whom I have acted cordially for fifteen years, and for whose high Parliamentary qualities no one has greater respect than I have—I mean my Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil). I recognise his instinctive power of statesmanship, and I appreciate more than anything else the great service that he has done to the State and the services which, I am sure, he will do hereafter to the State long after I am gone. But he must acknowledge, notwithstanding the respect I pay to his ideals, that discussion of the difficulties, misgivings and points of doubt which may exist in our minds is all to the good. I am certain that some of the apathy with which the League of Nations is considered throughout the country generally arises from the fact that it has not been strenuously and logically discussed as a matter of business and of practical politics. We have had sermons, we have had meetings and appeals, we have had vague aspirations. These are all very well, but the matter is one of practical politics, and as such we must consider it. I assure my Noble Friend that it is no intention of mine to indulge in ribaldry or in laughter, or to deal with it in a mocking spirit. I am fully persuaded of its real advantages. I am only doubtful whether we may not sometimes by overlooking its difficulties lead ourselves into certain trouble in the future. I recognise that we fought for five years to make war very improbable, if not impossible. I recognise that as strongly as the most enthusiastic supporters of the League of Nations.
    Mr. STEPHEN WALSH: A war to end war!
    Sir H. CRAIK: That was our intention if it were possible. I further agree that so diabolical is the ingenuity of destruction that we can hardly without horror contemplate the possibility of another war with a great State. It is almost as certain as that we are sitting here that if a war broke out again, with the advancing resources of science, it would engulf the whole of civilisation in a vast abyss from which it would take centuries for the human race to emerge. But at various times in the past all the nations have striven in some form or other for

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    something which would secure permanent peace. We are apt to decry and find fault with schemes and plans that moved other times than our own. It is possibly that they were all wrong, but at least we must admit that they had the same object before them, and that they believed, or professed to believe, that their schemes were such as would tend to diminish the probability of war. Take that much decried scheme of the balance of power. No doubt my Noble Friend will say I am a reactionary of the worst kind if I say a single word in favour of the balance of power, but I would only remind myself that that system of the balance of power was the very root of the whole policy of William III. in his contests with Louis XIV., that it was again the root of the policy of Lord Chatham and of the younger Pitt, and I believe it did tend to put off war and to check the evil intentions of certain ambitious Powers. But it had its disadvantages. It was, for one thing, a very delicately poised balance. Any aggressive Power might take advantage of what it thought a slight slip in one State or the other and make use of it. Besides that, it had the still greater disadvantage that if it maintained the semblance of peace it did it by maintaining an enormous, burdensome, expensive, crippling system of armaments, which necessarily grew from year to year. I admit that unquestionable evil. Then we had federations of various sorts, such as the Holy Alliance, from the 16th century onwards, attempts to remove the probability of the recurrence of war. They were pursuing precisely the same thing which we desire to be doing now. They fell very largely under dynastic influences, and that was very serious. They did not represent the wishes of nations so much as the dexterous combinations of different great dynastic powers.
    Then we have had other suggestions. We have had various schemes of arbitration. They were all right in their aim, but we know now how flimsy they were, and how they disappeared in the deep-seated passions, ambitions and rivalries of nations which were brought to bear against them. They always laid themselves open to the suspicion, very often because they turned out to be the first offenders against proposals of arbitration, that they were contriving something for the purpose of cloaking their own ambi-
    1536
    tions, and of securing the apathy of those against whom these ambitions were intended to operate. Now the League of Nations is put forward in the first 26 Clauses of the Peace Treaty. I admit that it is a great advance on what has been done. I admit the distinctness of its aim, and that it prescribes more clearly methods of procedure, and that is an immense practical advance. I am glad to learn from my right hon. Friend really how far they have advanced—further, he rightly says, than many have expected. Let us examine some of the points about which doubts may arise, and see how these doubts may be removed. Remove them, and no one will rejoice more than those who entertain the misgivings and doubts. The League is to consist of a Council of the Allied Powers, with four other members to be selected by the Aseembly, for the present, Belgium, Brazil, Spain and Greece, and all are to be equal. The only objection I have, and it is a very serious objection, is, does it really correspond with the reality of things? Is it possible that it can? Will not greater responsibility fall upon certain Powers than upon others, and is it any good pretending that there is to be an equality which we know will not exist? I should like my Noble Friend to remove a doubt I feel as to an inconsistency on his part. In February, during the discussion on the Address, he said he would prefer that the League of Nations should be convened by the heads of each nation, and not by the permanent members of the League; but in April, or even later, he begged that the Supreme Council, which does consist of the heads of nations, should step aside, and give way to permanent members of the League.
    I now come to the real practical question, what is the influence which this League is able to exert? The first point is the limitation of the power of mischief on the part of any individual Power by the restriction of its armaments. All the Council of the League can do is to recommend and to formulate plans for the reduction of armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations. It does not prescribe a limit of armaments. It only formulates a scheme by which that reduction can be obtained. Will not that give rise to endless disputes without really bringing force to bear to make these plans

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    effective? I pass over the Articles 10–15 which particularise the steps to be taken to prevent aggression upon territorial integrity, and the stipulated pledges as to submitting to arbitration. These are all to the good, but we know how apt such pledges are to give way under the stimulus of ambition or of what is more likely fancied wrong. The really crucial point of the whole League comes under Article 16, which prescribes the sanction by which the League is to enforce its decisions. This Article must be read in connection with Article 15, which prescribes that a decision as to the right and wrong in a particular case before it leads to action must be unanimously agreed to by all the Members of the League other than the parties to the dispute. Otherwise,
    "The members of the League reserve to themselves the right to take such action as they shall consider necessary for the maintenance of right and justice."
    That is to say, they reserve the right to act alone or in combination with others, if unanimity has not been reached by the members of the League, other than the parties to the dispute. Under Article 16, how are you to enforce this action? By two methods. First of all, by the severance of trade relations: by a universal commercial boycott. We have heard very strong denunciation in this House of the blockade. Would not this commercial boycott be open to the charge brought against the blockade, that it meant a certain amount of cruel starvation of innocent people, including women and children? Will not this resource leave itself open to the same charges which have been so vociferously made against the blockade. Certainly charges of that sort would be brought against it. If the boycott were not drastic and complete it need not exist at all. If it is drastic people will complain. Article 16 also provides that,
    "It shall be the duty of the Council to recommend to the several Governments concerned what effective military, naval or air force the members of the League shall severally contribute to the armed forces to be used to protect the covenants of the League."
    That is only a recommendation. There is no absolute prescription. If pressed home it would virtually mean the issuing of orders to the different nations on a very vital question of national concern. Would it not inevitably lead to dispute? How are you to make the same recommenda-
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    tions as to the contribution to the armed forces to be used to protect the covenants of the League upon a nation which has compulsory service and one which has not? Is it possible and is it just to do so? Will not differentiation be necessary and will not such differentiation necessarily involve a complaint as to interference and inequality of treatment? Article 19 provides for the abrogation or modification of treaties, and Article 21 excepts regional understandings like the Monroe Doctrine. May not other undertakings claim similar exemption? Do you think you will be able to curb the discretion of separate States in this way? Article 22, which deals with the mandatory system, is strangely varied, sometimes merely "advice and assistance"; in other cases the territory is to be administered by the mandatory as an integral portion of its territory. Under Article 23 the various nations are asked to entrust to the League various questions as to Labour conditions, traffic in drugs, control of disease, etc., which seem to trench dangerously upon municipal law. The whole fabric is a delicately poised one, which seems to imply the assumption of powers that would curb the freedom of each State. It is all very well if you can do this; but will it not lead to dispute and engender feelings of oppression by a League in which the disputing power may have little influence? If you can prove that our doubts are groundless I am only too ready to accept that proof. Meanwhile, be patient if we ask for explanation. I cordially wish well to the League; but I feel doubtful about rules and regulations which have an insufficient sanctioning power behind them.
    I yield to nobody in my enthusiasm as to what the League might possibly accomplish. Meanwhile we must be patient. I believe that the real value of the League—and here some hon. Members may think that I am retrograde or reactionary—lies, not in all its stipulations, its recommendations, its machinery, and its councils, but lies in the hope that the Great Powers will in their strength, and bearing a responsibility corresponding to that greatness of strength, will rise to the occasion and make themselves the real leaders of right all the world over. I do believe that we in England, the great Anglo-Saxon race, have an ideal, which we have made real and practical, of un-

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    selfishness in politics, and that we should bear that flag high, but we can only bear it high by virtue of our exercising our strength and our power. I believe that if the great Anglo-Saxon races of Britain and America, with our friends and Allies France, will rise to the height of their responsibility and hold up to the world a higher ideal of unselfish politics they will do more than all your schemes and all your stipulations by the respect they would gain from smaller nations. I would ask hon. Members to remember that great message from the Lord to Joshua:
    "Only be strong and very courageous; be strong and of good heart."
    I believe it is that strength that will give us what Tennyson saw with the poet's eye:
    "When the war drum throbs no longer, and the battle flag is furled
    In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world,
    When the common sense of most shall keep a fretful realm in awe,
    And the kindly earth shall slumber lapped in universal law."
    Yes, the kindly earth may slumber, but it will be no slumbrous time for the Great Powers for the two Anglo-Saxon races, combined with our friends in France, if they are to ensure that peace and that tranquillity which we all desire, and which we hope this League of Nations will establish.
    Lord R. CECIL: My right hon. Friend has made a very interesting speech, but I am not quite sure that I feel very much encouraged by his holding up the polity of Joshua as the ideal at which we should aim. My recollection of the teachings of that great Christian captain is not what we should nowadays approve. My right hon. Friend made desperate efforts to escape from his natural sentiments, but he was gradually driven back to the profession of belief in the old doctrine of the Holy Alliance. He really thinks, in defiance of history, that we are to secure our desires by having an alliance of the Great Powers who shall impose their will upon the world.
    Sir H. CRAIK: I did not say that. I said that their aim professes to be the aim that we have in the League of Nations. I pointed out the serious defects of the Holy Alliance.
    Lord R. CECIL: I was referring to the earlier part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in which he did condemn the Alliance. When he came to the peroration he returned to what he had previously condemned and advocated as a guarantee of peace an alliance between the United States, France, and ourselves which should impose our will upon the world. It may be a very hard saying, but that does not really differ in substance from the German view before the War. The Germans did really believe that it would be for the interests of the world that we should have a German organised world. We know that it would have been very much against the interests of the world and we were prepared to fight in order to back our opinion. That was what they contemplated—world domination. That really is what my right hon. Friend contemplates; though he does not like to have it put in exactly that way. That is his alternative suggestion. Therefore, I do not feel called upon to go into any great detail into his criticism of the Covenant, because if all that he has to suggest as an alternative to the Covenant is what he described, then I believe that the vast majority of his fellow-countrymen will reject that alternative. I may perhaps say this about his criticism of the machinery of Articles 15 and 16. I do not think that he has noticed that the real point of Articles 15 and 16 is to ensure delay and discussion. My right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, in his most admirable and interesting speech, correctly described the great fundamental conception on which the League rests. With all due respect to my right hon. Friend, they do not rest and cannot rest on the idea that the League will enforce its will by force of arms, but they do rest on the conception that you may be able to secure by general agreement, or you should be able to secure by general agreement, that period of reflection and discussion which shall enable the nations of the world to exercise the most powerful of all forces, namely, international public opinion upon the wrong-doer in any international quarrel. It is quite easy to point out this or that criticism of the provisions of the Covenant, and I am very much relieved to find that so acute an intellect as my right hon. Friend had not more to say than he did say. He

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    incidentally regarded as very dangerous the closing Articles of the Covenant. There was no more valuable part of the Lord President of the Council's speech than that in which he described how in actual fact these latter provisions are already working. This is the one part of the Covenant which is working, and I am delighted to hear it from my right hon. Friend is working quite satisfactorily.
    7.0 P.M.
    We have begun to put into operation the idea of international co-operation. That is a great achievement which has been reached in a period of six months. I do not want to underrate it. It is a matter of great satisfaction to me, because I had something to say in framing this Covenant, to know that these Clauses are in fact operating and operating successfully according to the judgment of a critic so very well qualified as my right hon. Friend. In referring to the actual work of the League, may I be permitted to express considerable regret that the international financial inquiry, to which my right hon. Friend refers, has been delayed so long. It was originally suggested, I think, last February, certainly some time early in the year. It was accepted by the Council of the League at, I think, the second meeting in London quite early in its career, and I have never been able to understand why it has not met already. The truth is that there is nothing more essential, even more essential perhaps on the other side of the Channel than here, than the due appreciation of what are the actual facts in Europe to-day. It is of the utmost importance. No judgment which will be satisfactory can be founded unless those facts are really appreciated. No instrument can be devised which would bring home to the peoples of the world more clearly and more authoritatively than the national financial commission of the eminent men whom my right hon. Friend describes if it could be put into operation as soon as possible, and I ask my right hon. Friend to use his great influence to see that no further delays take place in its meeting. Do not let us be told that it is waiting for the Spa Conference in December, or something of that kind. It is really essential that it should get to work. Every hour is of
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    importance in the economic position, for no one can tell when Europe shall be plunged into financial catastrophe.
    One thing which is provided for, and as to which my right hon. Friend did not reply, is the mandates. I hope very much that there will be no further delay about these mandates. It is really of great importance that the Council of the League should exercise its powers under Article 22, and lay down definitely the conditions under which the mandatory is to exercise his mandate. I am not merely referring to the case of Nauru, on which I expressed my opinion for what it was worth yesterday, but in Africa it is just the same. There are great territories which are not being governed legally at all, because they are to be mandated, and no mandate has been arrived at, and I am assured by those who know the conditions that this is producing a very serious state of affairs indeed. I trust, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will carry out that part of the Covenant as soon as possible. I would like to ask him one or two questions as to the future organisation of the League following on the first part of his speech. He had a dark and rather doubtful phrase about the seat of the League. I hope there is no doubt that the seat of the League is going to remain in Geneva. It would be a disastrous mistake if the seat of the League is to be moved away from that city. It is provided for in the Covenant. The Swiss were undoubtedly influenced very largely in their support of the League by the great position which they obtained by the honour of having the League in one of their principal cities.
    Mr. BILLING: Do you suggest that Switzerland came into the League for personal reasons?
    Lord R. CECIL: I am not suggesting anything of the kind. The hon. Member probably does not know, but this was a matter which was discussed all over Switzerland; in almost every house you heard nothing but discussions about the League of Nations. It was the subject of a plebiscite or referendum in Switzerland, and among the other arguments that were used, and quite properly used, was, "Here is a great trust, which is to be used for preserving the peace of the world, and you are to have the honour of being the

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    seat of the League. Are you going to reject that trust, and say that you are not worthy of that honour?" That was a legitimate argument which was used very largely in the referendum. The next question is as to the Assembly. I do not want to press this, but I hope that as soon as possible my right hon. Friend or the Government will tell us how the members of the Assembly representing this country are to be chosen. That is also a matter of very considerable importance, and I trust earnestly that my right hon. Friend or the Government will be able to assure us that certainly the ideal with which the Assembly was constituted, I believe, by all the members of the Commission, will be carried out, and that it will not be really a representative of Governments, but will be in some sense or form a representative of the peoples who constitute the States which are members of the League.
    I am very grateful that some attempt is being made to give publicity to the proceedings of the Council. I cannot think at present that publicity is carried far enough. I have always hoped that sooner or later more use would be made of the weapon of publicity than is made at present. There is no doubt, if you can conceive it possible that any one member of the Council is acting in an unreasonable or unduly self-interested way, the threat or the knowledge that that will have to be explained before the face of the whole world in a public session of the Council, would, I am satisfied, be a powerful deterrent to any country that is anxious to occupy such a position. Therefore, I hope that publicity will not be lost sight of. I am sure that everything that brings before the peoples of the world the actual work which the Council is doing, is essential to the ultimate sucess of the Council, because it has been said often in this House and elsewhere, that upon the support of the nations of the world the success of the League must ultimately depend.
    This is my last question. I would like very much if the Government will give us some indication of their policy with regard to the Supreme Council? I do not want to criticise the Supreme Council—it would be almost blasphemous to do so—but I do not think there is any room for two supreme international bodies in Europe, and as long as there is a body called the
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    Supreme Council it will overshadow the authority of the Council of the League. My right hon. Friend seems to think that I am inconsistent, because I want to abolish the Supreme Council and obtain the presence of the Prime Minister occasionally at the Council of the League. On the contrary, it is part of the same conception. I want the Council of the League to be the authoritative body. I want the Prime Minister, not only this Prime Minister, but a Prime Minister because he is Prime Minister, to be a representative on the Council of the League in order to give it that authority which it ought to have to carry out its very critical and responsible duties. Therefore I hope that, before the Debate closes, there will be a statement as to the policy of the Government as to the Supreme Council, and further a statement as to whether we may look on some future occasion for the presence of a Prime Minister at the debates of the Council of the League. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will not think that I am saying that in a manner in any way distrustful to him. I am sure that he will be the last person to think that I should be guilty of so grave and so silly a discourtesy, but it is merely because for the moment he is not Prime Minister and somebody else is.
    With the general principles which my right hon. Friend laid down as to the working of the League I do not wish to differ. At any rate, I think they are an aspect of the truth. I agree that we must not be impatient, that caution is necessary, that the present state of the world is not we hope what is going to be the normal state of the world, and no doubt the Covenant was framed with regard to its operation in a normal state of the world. I agree with all that, but still do not let us forget that the fundamental object of the whole conception is the preservation of peace. That is the object of the Covenant, and there is no use in telling us that the Covenant is working for peace unless it is also working effectively for the preservation of the peace of the world. Then of equal importance, since its whole success depends on the support of the peoples of the world, is that you must be able to convince the people that it is really and effectively working for the maintenance of peace. If they once believe that it is a mere futility, a mere fancy of a few academic people, they lose interest in it, they cease to support it and

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    the whole hope of European civilisation is sacrificed.
    My right hon. Friend referred to the case of the United States. We know how difficult it is to discuss freely the position in America. Still I feel absolutely convinced that nothing would encourage our friends in America more than to be able to say in controversy, "The League has already accomplished a great work in the preservation of peace. Do not let this question or that question interrupt that work. Are you really going to stand aside from this great work which is already in operation?" Therefore, I press those two propositions, and I am bound to say that I do agree very heartily with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley in his criticism as to the action which was taken by the Poles. I am not going to discuss that case at length over again, but to me, at least, reading the documents that were submitted, I have not the least doubt that in the beginning of the year there was a clear opportunity for the intervention of the League with every probability of success. I cannot doubt—I may be entirely wrong—if our representatives at the Council, our Government, had summoned a special meeting, as they were entitled to do, of the Council, at that time, when it was known that there was grave danger of hostilities between Poland and Russia, and submitted the case to the Council, thus giving as I think an opening in which to explain fully the danger that threatened Europe, that intervention would have been successful, and that the war which is now again desolating Central Europe would have been avoided.
    I cannot tell the Committee how disastrous I think that war has been—I shall guard myself by stating that I say that not from any sympathy with the Bolsheviks. I think that war is intensely sad. I cannot see any exit from it which is not going to be a very serious injury to Europe as a whole. Apart from the actual disaster of the war itself, it will, I believe, greatly hamper us in our League policy. Reference has been made to the fact that the Russians refused to receive the commission we were anxious to send to Russia to inquire into the situation there. I do not know what the real motives of that refusal may be. They may have been all sorts of motives of a very reprehensible kind. The Soviet
    1546
    Government may have had in mind the fact of the Polish War, the fact that undoubtedly the Poles were not fighting altogether without assistance, and it gave them the opportunity of saying that they would not let the Commission into the country because that would mean to let the friends of their enemy into the country at a time when the Russians were actually fighting. Personally, I think the Russian Government acted very foolishly; in fact, they impeded the operation of what would have been an experiment of the greatest possible advantage to the whole of Europe. Look, also, at the Persian question. I wish to say again that I recognise the very difficult position in which the Council was placed, and I do not wish to criticise the conclusions at which the Council arrived. Everyone must have felt that there was a certain difficulty in dealing with the situation. When Russia was attacked the League did not interfere; when Russia attacked someone else the League did interfere. That is quite explainable, I admit, and we understand it, but this kind of thing does impair the reputation for impartiality upon which the whole success of the League must ultimately depend.
    I regret very deeply the failure to deal with the Polish situation last January. I am not prepared to say whether or not you could now take any effective action. It may be so and I hope it is so. The difficulty is certainly far more now than it would have been then. I cannot feel happy that under these circumstances a course of action was taken which, if it is to be taken in regard to other questions which now threaten the peace of the world, will largely render the League useless and ineffective for its main purpose. There are questions already pending. There is a great dispute between Finland and Sweden. There is the dispute between Poland and Czecho-Slovakia. There is the vehement dispute between Poland and Lithuania. Is the League to stand on one side from all these questions? The Polish question makes it more difficult to interfere. On the other hand, here are questions arising, not directly out of the War settlement, arising out of the difficulties indirectly caused by the War, but not part of the Peace settlement. These are matters in which the League ought to be watching events with the utmost attention, so that the moment

    1547
    opportunity serves they may be ready to intervene as the guardians of the peace of the world. I recognise my right hon. Friend's great and legitimate fear lest fanatics like myself—I think that was what he really intended to say—should put too much on the League. There is no one who can give better reasons for caution than my right hon. Friend. But I hope he will not think me impertinent if I say I sometimes wish I could see just a streak of fanaticism about his intentions. I am sure that my right hon. Friend and the Government recognise fully the difficulty of the task in which they are engaged. It is enormous. A foreign friend of mine described what was desirable as putting on to an international plane the foreign policies of the courts of Europe, and he said, very truly, that that was a task of enormous difficulty. The change is enormous. We have got to scrap very largely our old diplomatic preconceptions. We have got to realise and to act upon the doctrine that peace is not only the interest of the actual countries who are endangered by war, but is the interest of every country in the world, and that each and all of them have a right to take such action as they can, through the League, to prevent an outbreak of war. We have no excuse now for leaving it only to the parties involved whether they shall fight or not.
    My right hon. Friend spoke of the difficulties. He spoke of the enemies of the League; and he spoke eloquently and wisely upon both subjects. I do not think he exaggerated the power or the importance of the enemies. On the contrary, I should say he underrated them. In addition to the enemies he enumerated there are the whole of the forces of reaction, the whole forces of militarism and bureaucracy. They are all ranged against him. They must be against him from their very nature. [HON. MEMBERS: "The War Office!"] I must admit that I am not altogether without misgivings as to the attitude of the Government towards this question. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House complained yesterday that I entertained the belief that the Government is not sufficiently serious in its devotion to the League of Nations. I cannot deny that I have a misgiving on the subject, treating the Government as a corporate whole. Is it very unreasonable to have that view?
    1548
    I am not going back on the discussion of yesterday about Nauru, but I could not fail to feel during the whole of that discussion that the idea that the League was involved in that agreement and in that Bill came as a shock of surprise to my right hon. Friend. He had never thought of that at all, and he had no conception that the League was involved. My right hon. Friend still says so. It shows how widely we differ in our interpretation. I do not think it is doubtful that the Cabinet in this matter is not, I will not say united in policy, but not united in opinion. I do not doubt that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is genuinely a supporter of the League. I do not doubt that my right hon. Friends the Lord President of the Council and the Leader of the House are equally genuine and sincere. But there are some Members of the Cabinet who are at best luke-farm friends, and others who, I am afraid, may be, perhaps, described as partly concealed enemies. I cannot conceal from myself that this view, which I think must exist, is reflected in certain very influential organs of opinion, one of which has announced with great emphasis on two successive mornings that the League is dead, and the other of which has long rejoiced over its approaching demise. I am bound to add this, in the presence of my right hon. Friend, that not very long ago a conference of the Unionist Party was held at Birmingham, and that in the official statement of the policy of the party there was no reference to the League at all. In the speech of the Leader of the Party there was no reference to the League.
    Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): I cannot speak about everything in one speech.
    Lord R. CECIL: If you had to leave out something, why leave out the League of Nations?
    Mr. HAILWOOD: Is it included in the programme of the Labour party?
    Lord R. CECIL: I know nothing about that. I was referring only to the party to which I belong. I do not make these observations in order to annoy my right hon. Friends, but in order to call attention to the fact that it is not enough to be just in favour of the League. The League is faced with an enterprise of prodigious difficulty, and for various

    1549
    reasons the responsibility for its success rests principally upon this country. It cannot be carried through by mere acquiescence. Its only authority is red-hot conviction. I am sorry my right hon. Friend thinks me a fanatic, because I know that that will discourage him from paying any attention to any observations I may make. But I do really and earnestly beg him and the Prime Minister to consider whether it is not really worth while to see the enormous possibility of the idea, to allow their imaginations to be fired by the greatness of the task, and to throw themselves heart and soul into this as immeasurably the first object of their policy. My right hon. Friend (Sir H. Craik) referred to the failure of other schemes. It is quite true that the Holy Alliance failed and that the concert of Europe was a very partial success. Those failures are a warning. We hope that in the Covenant we have done something to provide machinery which may prevent a similar failure of this effort. But those failures are also a great beacon. They hold up before us the passionate desire of mankind to find some way out. They are an example to all mankind, as admitted by my right hon. Friend, and they really think that this proposal does offer some chance of success, surely it is worth their while to cast every obstacle aside and earnestly strive to bring it to fruition.
    Mr. BALFOUR: I have already trespassed at considerable length on the attention of the Committee, and I must cut short any observations I have to make, but I think it is desirable that somebody should reply to some of the criticisms that have been passed. My right hon. Friend who has just sat down, I am aware, thinks—how shall I put it—that while we have given an exposition of views, which on paper are not inconsistent with the opinions which he himself believes, yet that the Government has been so cold and calm, that I am quite incapable of dealing with the subject which, in his view, can only be properly approached in a state of red hot zeal. [HON. MEMBERS: "Conviction!"] I do not undervalue red hot zeal. Fanatics are occasionally useful and even necessary elements in every great movement, but I am not sure that great movements have been best led by people who are always in a state of red-hot enthusiasm for those who insist on the point of doctrine and in a
    1550
    state of red-hot fury against those who find any cause for difference as to the main instrument on which they are engaged. Everybody who believes in the League of Nations must value the work which my Noble Friend has performed. In Paris, when I was there engaged on another branch of the tremendous international task on which we were occupied, my Noble Friend gave his time, his brains and ingenuity and threw the whole of his great ability into the framing of this document, and which, I believe, he has borne a very great part. It is a document which will stand as a landmark in the history of the evolution of civilisation. That is a magnificent performance to be put to any man's name, but, somehow all these transactions have left my Noble Friend in a frame of mind which makes me greatly doubt his judgment on certain minor aspects. He is in that frame of mind of semi-theological violence in which the smallest variation from the approved doctrine arouses wrath in certain temperaments quite out of proportion to the real differences of belief. I should have said that my Noble Friend and I on this subject, as on many other subjects, were in broad practical agreement.
    Lord R. CECIL: I have said so.
    Mr. BALFOUR: My Noble Friend said so at the beginning, but the impression left on the House towards the end of his speech was that it was a lamentable fact that this great cause for which he has such red hot enthusiasm should be left in such cold hands as that of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and myself. If that was not the impression I apologise. He really is, if I may say so, the most intolerant man on this subject I have ever heard. Nothing but abject submission, not merely to the broad principle, but to every practical detail of carrying it out will satisfy him. I can assure my Noble Friend however valuable that temper may be in moderation and in small quantities, although moderation is not the epithet that should be applied to it from any point of view, it really is not a temper in which you can approach dealing with 45 separate nations, each one of which has a veto on your policy. There is again in the Council a body of eight gentlemen, and each one of whom again has a veto on your policy. You must deal with human nature as

    1551
    you find it. While I entirely agree with my Noble Friend in all he says about the absolute necessity for the future of civilisation that this scheme, which he has done so much to create, should be carried through effectively, you cannot cut your way through with a hatchet. In that way you will only raise opposition where unanimity is not only desirable, but required, so to speak, by law, and you will not get unanimity by bludgeoning everybody who differs from you. I do not believe in that policy, and I hope my Noble Friend will not press it to extremes.
    As to the question of Poland, it is a very difficult matter. It is conceivable that one or other of the courses actually taken was not the best, and it is conceivable that my Noble Friend may be right in saying that very good things might have happened if a different course had been pursued. My Noble Friend talks as if it was so obvious and so manifest that the whole League of Nations stands condemned before the civilised world because it did not take that course. Really that is an absolutely excessive point of view. My Noble Friend has admitted with his usual candour and love of truth that the conditions for which the League of Nations was created are not the conditions now prevailing in Europe. He has admitted that the League of Nations was brought into existence in order to deal with a world which, so far as human imperfections would allow, was more or less set right by the Supreme Council and the Peace Conference. That was the intention with which it was created, and that is the only intention, and it is obvious on every line of the document. There is a risk in using machinery made for one set of conditions, and insisting that it should carry out operations which are quite different. The conditions contemplated as to the League of Nations, although I do not say you might find a phrase saying this, was that where two nations were working up towards a quarrel the League of Nations were to intervene and say, "You are not to quarrel until some time elapses, and until all the machinery of law and of arbitration and all the rest are brought into play." That was the condition contemplated, but that is not what is going on in Eastern Europe. My right hon. Friend
    1552
    the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) seemed to assume that the War began after the League of Nations was called into existence; but that is not my reading of the facts. There really never had been peace. He assumed and stated specifically that the borders of Poland had been laid down by Treaty, but that is really not so. The western borders of Poland and Germany had been laid down by Treaty, but the eastern borders had not been laid down. It is true that a provisional boundary was fixed or arranged by the Supreme Council so far as the Supreme Council had power to deal with the situation, but the Treaty does not come in at all.
    My Noble Friend says it is a monstrous thing our not rushing in and saying that the War must cease and that the whole case must be inquired into, and all the rest of it. I cannot conceive a more difficult and doubtful case, because you will observe not only was War going on, but it was a War with a Power unrecognised by any nation in the world. The Poles asserted, rightly or wrongly, that one object and one effect of their intervention was to free the Ukranians from the Bolshevist yoke, and that they were welcomed as liberators from Bolshevist invasion. To rush in on that sort of occasion is like rushing at a street fight and seizing the arm of one of the combatants, thereby, no doubt, putting him out of action, but leaving the other one free. We could not have controlled the Bolshevists. Therefore, the whole subject was surrounded by difficulty. Let me here observe that I think publicity will be useful if you can take a case in which, say, the great majority of the Council, perhaps all the Council but one, take a particular view, and that for reasons which may be selfish reasons or foolish reasons, but reasons which do not bear examination, a single member says, "I will stop all your proceedings." What is the remedy for that? There is only one remedy which I believe to be efficacious. When all the arguments are clearly on the one side and when those arguments are laid before the public, the Power concerned will have in face of the world to get up and explain why it stands alone against all the other representatives of the League of Nations. Does anybody think, if one of the eight Powers on the Council had said, "This is not a fitting occasion to use the League machinery,"

    1553
    that that Power would not have been able to get up and make a most plausible defence, and would not have behind it a vast body of cultivated and uncultivated opinion, well-informed and ill-informed opinion, in every country of the world? I think they would. Therefore, though I do not dogmatise on the subject, though I claim no infallibility of judgment upon it, I am not sure my Noble Friend is really doing a service to the cause he has at heart if he takes this, in his own expression, red-hot view of the policy that ought to have been pursued. Supposing in this doubtful case the parties had not agreed, you would then have had to proceed by blockade. We have heard nothing but denunciations of blockade, and I think I heard some to-night by a right hon. Friend opposite, who seemed to think that typhus in Russia was due to our blockade, an error of fact, I think.
    In the condition of the world contemplated by the League, the victims of blockade really would have had no sympathisers. You take a settled state of things, a settled community insist on going to war, the whole world turns against it and says, "Very well, we will cut you off from the community of nations until you mend your ways." I do not believe there would be any sympathy for the women and children of that community. They deliberately put themselves in the position of going to war, or threatening war, against the united view of the civilised world, and I do not think they would have any sympathy; but when the whole world is at this moment groaning under the difficulty of inter-communication, when the lack of means of communication, the lack of credit, the lack of rolling stock, the lack of everything which makes international life possible is the great curse under which we are suffering, then to say that the blockade is the proper way of dealing with the situation is a very melancholy thing to have to look forward to. Whether a country which can import so little as Russia would really be frightened by that is a question on which I have no certainty. My Noble Friend in his speech the other day said it would have a coercive effect. I am very doubtful about that, but at all events, it is a matter of speculation and I am afraid I must leave it.
    I turn from Poland to the question of mandates, which was the next theme dis-
    1554
    cussed. My recollection of what occurred in Paris is this. Germany, by the terms of the Peace, was required to give up all her colonies conquered by the Allies and to hand them over, not to this or that country, and not to the League of Nations, but to the Allied and Associated Powers. Having handed them over to the Allied and Associated Powers, those Powers and the Peace Conference generally agreed that a system of mandates should be adopted, in the main with the view of seeing that the populations of those countries should not be used merely as subjects, but that their true interests should be looked after, and that they should be treated, not as mere spoils and booty of war, but as communities for which the civilised world had responsibilities. That great end, and I hope it will prove one of the greatest ends attained by the Pact, was to be obtained by mandates, but according to my recollection, while the terms of the mandates were to be determined by the Peace Conference, the superintendence of the use to which those mandates were put was left to the League of Nations. That is my view of what was intended at Paris, and I believe that view to be absolutely correct. In those circumstances, I think it is much to be regretted that the mandates are not ready yet, but I do not see that that is a matter for which the League of Nations can be blamed. I do not think anybody can be blamed. Everybody knows the negotiations have taken much longer than it was hoped or anticipated they would take. The League of Nations will come in when the mandatory powers have accepted the responsibility of carrying out the mandates, and will be required to tell the whole civilised world annually how it is they are carrying out the great trust which has been conveyed to them. Then the League of Nations will come in, and I hope they will do their duty. That is the general view which I take of the situation, and I believe it to be exactly in accordance with the facts.
    I will now try to answer the other questions of my Noble Friend. He expressed great anxiety as to the permanent residence of the League. That is a question that is going to be submitted to the General Assembly of the League of Nations, and it would be premature for me to give any information on the point. He is clearly right in supposing that when

    1555
    the Pact was framed, Geneva was contemplated as the probable permanent seat of the League, and I have no doubt that if that is not accepted—and I have no reason to form an opinion on the subject—very strong grounds must be shown why the original intentions of the framers of the League should be departed from. Then my Noble Friend wanted to know how the Government or the Prime Minister were going, to select the three representatives which this country is entitled, like every other country, to send to the Assembly, and he particularly desired that they should not represent the Government.
    Lord R. CECIL: Not solely the Government.
    Mr. BALFOUR: I have never had an opportunity of discussing it. I have never, as far as I remember, exchanged a single syllable on this point with any one of my colleagues, and I have not the least notion what their view is, but I would point out that you must assume that the Government of the day in free countries represents the people of those countries. I do not at all suggest that the assumption is always accurate, but it is the assumption you must make, and nobody has ever suggested any better assumption on which one country can communicate with another. The second observation I would make is even more important. If you send people avowedly because they belong to different sections of opinion it is at least possible—some people would say it is probable—that when they come to discuss general matters at Geneva, or Brussels, or wherever it may be, they will not be of the same opinion. Very well, where will your country stand? It must be remembered that each nation is only entitled to one vote. How is that going to be arranged? Is it to be a majority of the three? The difficulties are obviously great. Is the dissentient member justified in canvassing against his two colleagues who hold a different opinion? I see the point of my Noble Friend, but I submit that to send three gentlemen representing one country, but of different opinions, is not improbably to weaken that country in the Council of the nations. My Noble Friend asked about publicity. I think I have explained how closely—I should have said how perfectly I agree with him in that respect, if I ever thought he would admit
    1556
    that I did perfectly agree with him—but at any rate I think I may say I very nearly agree with him on that point. My Noble Friend wants to get the Supreme Council out of the way in order to give the League of Nations a fair field. I entirely agree with my Noble Friend, if he will add a rider to it, which is that before the Supreme Council get out of the way it shall finish its work. I am not sure on which point we differ most, if we differ at all, but I really shrink from asking the League of Nations to carry out its most difficult and delicate duties in a world unprepared for its operations. I do not think it can be asked to prepare that world itself, and here I know I have got the assent of my right hon. Friend, the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith).
    The League of Nations cannot do the work of the Supreme Council; it is only the Supreme Council that can do the work of the Supreme Council, and the sooner they do that work, the better, I am sure, the Prime Minister will be pleased, the better all his colleagues will be pleased, and certainly the better the British representative, whoever he may be, on the League of Nations will be pleased; but do not let us get rid of the Supreme Council until they have really made the world such as the machinery of the League of Nations can work in smoothly and effectively. I do not know if it is worth dealing with the point as to whether the Prime Minister of the day should or should not be in attendance on the League of Nations. At present my right hon. Friend has got an enormous burden on his shoulders, a burden rendered doubly heavy by the fact that, being a member of the Supreme Council, he constantly has to go abroad for that. If you are going to send him abroad, in addition to attend the League of Nations, you really will improve the constitution of the League of Nations, but you will break down the British Constitution, and possibly the constitution of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister himself. It really cannot be done, but when the Supreme Council is, as my Noble Friend desires, and as I desire, well out of the way, when, therefore, the present Prime Minister or any other Prime Minister has more time at his disposal, it may well be that on important occasions he should go and represent this country, as only he can represent it.
    Lord R. CECIL: Hear, hear!
    Mr. BALFOUR: Very well, there, at all events, I am happy to think that, whatever may have happened earlier in my speech, I am able now to sit down on a note of complete accord with my Noble Friend.
    8.0 P.M.
    Mr. T. SHAW: The right hon. Gentleman who introduced this Debate referred to a country larger in area, I believe, than the United States, with almost double the population, not a member of the League of Nations, and now attacked by Poland. There was no indication in either of his speeches that any advice had been tendered by the League of Nations to Poland. There was no indication that Poland had been asked to refrain from attacking Russia. There was no indication that a nation ravaged by typhus, with one-third of its population disaffected, which has literally gone mad in a military sense, has been in any way approached or advised by the League of Nations. It is perfectly true that Poland was the aggressor. It is also perfectly true that when the frontiers of Poland were closed, a statement was made that they were closed for the purpose of stamping Austrian notes with the Polish stamp, when those frontiers were closed for the purpose of deliberately preparing an attack on Russia. I was in Warsaw at the time, and was told by a fairly well-known French politician exactly when the attack would take place, and what the bargain was. Whether he was right as regards the bargain, I cannot say, but certainly he was right as to the date of the attack. Three days before the attack he told me when it would take place, and that a bargain had been struck with General Petlura, under which Poland would give assistance to General Petlura on condition that part of the Ukraine was given to Poland. While all this was going on, there was no indication whatever that any advice of any kind was tendered by the League of Nations to Poland, and I repeat that Poland is a country ravaged by typhus, has no resources, has a disaffected population and has simply gone mad in a military sense. I remember Potsdam and Berlin in the pre-War days, but never in my life did I see militarism so rampant as I saw it in Warsaw just before the attack on the Russians. Clinking sabres, brilliant uniforms, thousands
    1558
    of officers in a country that ought to be devoting its energies to getting rid of typhus and building up its own stability. There has been no reference at all to any advice tendered by the League of Nations.
    May I turn to the other great country of which I spoke, and to which only a casual reference has been made? There are two great holes in the League of Nations' scheme. There can be no League of Nations that can be really effective with the United States of America and Russia left out. It is very regrettable that the States should remain outside the League. Surely it is the business of the League not only to do what is humanly possible to bring in the States, but it is the duty of the League to do what is humanly possible to seek to bring about a settlement of the condition of affairs in Eastern Europe. There is an area greater, I believe, than the United States, with a population almost twice as large I am not thinking of Bolshevik theories of Government, but of 160,000,000 or 180,000,000 people cut off from the rest of humanity. I think a great deal can be done with Russia. I know, for instance, that Russia refuses to accept the delegation of the League of Nations. I know it, because it was told to me, along with others, by the Russian Foreign Minister, Tchicherin. Tchicherin's position is this: "So long as the different States will not recognise us, so long as they will not recognise that we are a sovereign State, it is below our dignity to permit their representatives to come to us. We insist on our right to recognition as a sovereign State, and we will not accept representatives from other States until that right is conceded."
    That is the position with regard to Russia, and that is the determining factor why the delegation of the League of Nations was not accepted. I think, like the right hon. Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil), that the Russians made a colossal blunder, that it was in their interest, as well as in the interest of the rest of Europe, that people should go to Russia and get to know exactly what the conditions are, and I can assure the House that, from a very short experience in Russia, it is perfectly evident that there has been a tremendous amount of misrepresentation, and that the condition of affairs in Russia cannot be described by an adjective. It cannot be said to be

    1559
    either good or bad. It is a most extraordinary mixture of the finest effort I have ever seen in my life, with a discipline, a rigidity and a militarism greater than existed in this country during the time of the War, and greater, I believe, than the British people would ever permit It is to me a matter of very much importance indeed what policy the League of Nations, and particularly this country as part of the League of Nations, adopts towards Russia in the future. The industrial population is half-starved. They attribute the condition of affairs, rightly or wrongly, to our blockade, and the attack of Poland and Wrangel to Allied capital. The people are working their way through semi-starvation. They are undoubtedly becoming imbued with a hatred of this country, to whom they attribute the sufferings through which they are going, and I want the House seriously to consider what that means. Assume that these people work their way through, in spite of blockade or refusal to recognise them as a State, there are 180,000,000 people being disciplined and trained in a military sense, occupying one of the richest countries in the world with natural resources, becoming imbued with a hatred of us.
    I do implore the Government and the representatives of the Government on the League of Nations carefully to consider whether it is not advisable to make a free and an open statement, both on behalf of the League of Nations and the individual Government, as to what their policy should be. Is the hatred by the Russian people of this country to be wondered at, when in their hospitals day after day people are dying through want of medical supplies which they cannot get, owing to the policy of the Allies? Is it any wonder these people are getting to hate the very name of England? If it be true that there is no blockade, let that fact be deliberately and openly stated throughout the countries of the world; but if there is no blockade by ships, but through licences, let that fact be stated and not allow the people to run away with a false impression, deceived by an answer which is only half the truth. I do not know whether the statement be true or not. When I asked in Petrograd as to truth of the blockade I was calmly answered by the one to whom I put the question: "We will take you out to
    1560
    Kronstadt to-morrow, give you a pair of glasses, and you can see your own warships out on the water." A huge deputation of working men and women assembled before the hotel in which we were staying. One of the Russian workmen, a man who had returned from America, made a speech in which he said that the people of Russia, though they were not as badly off as 12 months ago, were still suffering intensely from the blockade, and if we could go back to England and get the blockade lifted we would be rendering the most valuable service possible to these men and women. The notion that in some way the present Government of Russia is being imposed with absolute rigidity on an unwilling population is, I believe, wrong.
    I hold no brief for Bolshevism. The theories of Bolshevism are repugnant to me. I am still old-fashioned enough to believe that every man and every woman ought to have equal rights in the country. But I want to face facts, and I say that here you have a people who are hating us, and coming to hate us more, and who believe we are responsible for their sufferings. These people are fighting their way through. It is a very serious matter when you consider the geographical situation of Russia She is not only a huge country with unlimited natural resources, but she is in close proximity to other countries, and to certain parts of our Empire, where she could be extremely dangerous to the peace of the world, if the feeling of which I have spoken develops too much. I, therefore, think myself that anything that can be done now in the nature of lifting the blockade, would be done in the interests, not only of the whole of the nations of the earth, but of our own nation in particular. Surely there is no reason for the blockade? If we really are determined to see that the nation shall conform in its internal arangements to our standard of honour before we recognise it as a nation, and if we are going to use picturesque adjectives about certain men and their characters, let us not forget that we recognised Czarist Russia! The men who now protest against Lenin never uttered a word of condemnation about the knout, about the snows of Siberia, about the persecutions that took place for political ideas. They were silent then; now they are vocal! It is the merest humbug for men who did not oppose tyranny in the

    1561
    old days, now to say that the reason that we, as a country, do not want to recognise Russia is that there is tyranny in that country. If in the former times they had said we were not to recognise Russia because of the character of her Government, one could have understood the position to-day; but calmly to accept all the horrors of the Czarist régime, and then to pretend to lay down a creed for the present régime in Russia, is not exactly playing the game.
    I have already said what I think about Bolshevism. But I also say that internal Russia can only be managed by the Russian people. I took the opportunity when there of meeting as large a number of people as I could, and as representative a set of people. In not one single case did I hear a word of sympathy with the position held by this country and the Allies. Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, and leaders of the working-classes were all agreed, and told me personally, and repeated it, that there would be no opposition to the Soviet form of government from them so long as the blockade and the Polish attacks went on. I was told by a Professor of Mining exactly the same thing. "Why," he asked, "does your country continue this policy?" I heard the same from persons of every shade of opinion. The unanimity was astounding. One would have thought that after what Russia has gone through that under no possible circumstances would it be possible to bring behind the Soviet government the whole of the people with whom one spoke. But this question of the blockade and of peace with Russia was the cause of their hostile attitude. Russia is unitedly behind the Soviet on these questions.
    There is something very serious in addition. There is the feeling that the word of this country cannot be taken at its face value. I am sorry to say that there are what appear to be good reasons for that. It is possible for the Russians to assume, and justly to assume, that this country and France in particular must be behind Poland. The argument used in Russia was this: "Here is Poland, poor, disorganised; racked with disease, and internal problems: how can Poland conduct a great war without help: if she is getting help, whence does it come?" One is bound
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    to admit that the evidence is strong enough from the Russian point of view to justify them in believing that we are helping Poland. It seems to be certain that ammunition made in England is now being used in Poland against the Russians. I spoke to one in authority. He volunteered, if I cared to go, to show me the actual ammunition being used against them. He also told me that English and French officers were fighting in the Polish army. My reply to that was that adventurer officers had been found in every army and in every war, and that a few French or British officers did not prove that their respective countries were implicated in the slightest degree. His reply to that observation was: "If you care to come with me to the front, I will show you the sort of officers we have captured, and then you will have an idea for yourself as to whether or not there is active assistance from the Government, or whether these men are merely adventurers, fighting for their own hand."
    Russia will bear a tremendous part in the future of the world. There is that feeling there, and amongst some of us here. Because of that I appeal to the League of Nations and to this Government that as a minimum there should be a frank, open and public statement as to what is required from Russia before Russia is permitted to enter the family of nations. I will not say more on that point. I was talking to Tchicherin. He said that over 12 months ago he offered terms of peace to this Government on behalf of the Russians. He offered to pay every penny of British and Allied capital that had been invested in Russia. In addition he said he would make valuable concessions of land after peace was signed. The position of the Russian Government now is not the position of a year ago. I am speaking from what was told us by the Foreign Minister himself. The Russians are no longer prepared to offer those terms. Financial arrangements may be made. Certain concessions may be made. But the nation is not prepared to go the length she was 12 months ago even for peace. It seems to me there is growing up in Russia a determination to fight through in spite of us rather than to humiliate themselves in again asking for peace. The League of Nations might benefit humanity, and above all that portion of humanity which lives in these islands and in our Empire,

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    by openness, frankness, publicity and by stating to the whole world what can be done in order to bring Russia into the family of nations.
    It is impossible for a League of Nations to exist without Russia and the United States of America, and it is more than ever impossible when one realises what is the geography of the east of Europe. Is Austria quite satisfied at the present time? Does anyone dream that Germany as a country is quite satisfied? Does anyone believe that in the Balkans and in Turkey the people are satisfied? Here you have the possibility of making peace with a stable Government in Russia, which has proved its existence—whether its principles be good or bad does not affect the argument—it is a stable Government, and will the League of Nations do anything to avert the danger and to help the cause of universal peace? If the League of Nations is not prepared to work on those lines there is no chance of a lasting peace in Europe.
    I have seen with horror the possibility of a development of a combination which may finally result in a war as destructive as, and perhaps more destructive than, the one from which we have just emerged. Picturesque phrases and denunciations of persons at the moment do not matter. What is required is not picturesque personalities but real statesmanship, which does not consist of violent articles in newspapers, but in getting at the truth and acting upon it in a common-sense way. Intoxicating phrases frequently blind men as to the true position. I have made my appeal to ears I hope that are receptive, and I would not have done so if I had not believed that England is running a very serious danger, and one which we ought not to run. I believe our policy is inflicting punishment upon 160,000,000 innocent people, for, whatever may be the crime of Lenin and Trotsky and Tchitcherine, it is the common people who are suffering, and who are only eating half of what is necessary to keep them in a proper state of health. I have seen these things myself, and I know from their own statements of the average amount of food they receive that they are only getting fifty per cent. of what is really necessary for their requirements.
    Those are the people who are suffering, and, whether you like it or not, they are
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    behind the Soviet Government, whatever we think of their principles. For these reasons I appeal to the League of Nations to carefully consider their policy with regard to peace in Europe and to put a check on their friend and ally, Poland, in order to restrain her inner madness and to persuade her to turn her attention to peace and get rid of her Jewish problem, and typhus, and clean her cities, and begin to build up her industries, and then more good will be done than by waging war for more territory than she can possibly administer. Here there are 180,000,000 people who might be our friends for ever if the right hand of fellowship is held out to them, instead of becoming our bitter enemy, determined to pay back old scores, and injure us as we have injured them. In Persia and India our own Government know already what the result of the quarrel with Russia has produced. Common sense, humanity, public interest, all of them demand an emphatic pronouncement, publicly made, as to the policy of the League of Nations towards Russia, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to give consideration to a question which in my heart of hearts I honestly believe to be the most important question which is confronting our Empire at this moment.
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONE: I have listened with interest to the hon. Member who has just spoken, knowing that he was anti-Bolshevik, but I had some suspicion that his report of what he had experienced would not be biased. What he has said to us to night has been said with deep sincerity, and I would like him to have told us much more about the details, and I hope he will do this upon some future occasion. I think to-night the Government might very well take a lesson from the remarks which the hon. Member has made concerning the blockade. He has assured us again, if, indeed, it was necessary, that we have been grossly misrepresented and lied to concerning action between Poland and Russia. I hope the Government will appreciate that after all the best policy is an honest policy. It is best to be open and not to try and deceive the people whether in the House or the country, because sooner or later their sins will find them out. I am glad to hear that the Bolsheviks are moderating their peace terms, and I think we

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    might say instead of the Government offering the Bolsheviks peace terms the Bolsheviks are really offering the Government terms of their own understanding.
    I do not agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken that real peace will ever be possible between this country and Russia. No doubt an agreement would be possible on paper, that is, a trading agreement, but I cannot conceive that real, durable, lasting peace between a capitalist country or between capitalist countries and the Soviet Republic can ever endure. The two systems, the two principles are so fundamentally opposite that they will always be intriguing and fighting against each other and undermining each other. Even if trade and commercial relations are open, the countries surrounding Russia will practice sabotage on anyone attempting to trade with Soviet Russia. To imagine that the League of Nations can deal with the Russian question by bringing them all together round a table is to grossly contradict the elementary principles of human nature.
    The Prime Minister in his speech last Monday week opened a great vista of peace with Russia. He was really only taking what I might say was the opportunist course. He sees the red light of the starvation of Asia which will spread all over Europe next winter, and probably to a greater extent in the succeeding winters. There are hon. Members who stand for vested interests, for property, and for financial interests, and they are the extreme right of the Tory party. They think rightly that peace with Russia with men who hold such long-established views is not possible. In my opinion, they are to some extent right. Lenin said very truly, and the statement was published a few months ago, "Continue to war against me, continue to support the Poles, continue the blockade, and you will have revolution in your own country. Commence to give us peace, commence to open up trade relations with us, and the spirit of the principles we are putting into practice in Russia will spread throughout your country."
    I come to the question of the League of Nations' Delegation to Russia. Is it not absurd to think that the Bolsheviks will tolerate a mission from a body which is practically unanimous in trying to overthrow their Government? Everyone will see the point of view put
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    forward by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Shaw). After the discussion to-night I do not think many of us will have any doubt as to the lack of benefit which will result to mankind from the League of Nations as at present proposed, and as we hear it discussed to-day.
    It is very regrettable, it is very sad, to think of all the lives lost in the Great War. I suppose if it had been possible to take a consensus of the opinions of the men in the trenches or of the men at sea as to what they were fighting for, most of them would probably have said that they were fighting to establish a League of Nations, or to create some international organisation to prevent any further cataclysm of war. I am afraid, however, they were rather badly bluffed by the fine words used by Allied statesmen during the War, by men of every nationality who have given no real thought to what the organisation really should be or to the difficulties of setting up machinery to stop war. The fact of the matter is that no political movement can have any real foundation or true basis unless it is founded on an economic basis. This applies to all parties and all countries. Unless the League of Nations is founded on a solid foundation of financial economics, it must prove an empty myth. The League of Nations must either have a financial basis, it must either be really supported by international finance and have its own coinage, it must be supported by an international capitalistic organisation or it must be supported by international labour. It is not going to be supported by the great capitalistic interest. I admire the tribute which has been paid to-day to the hard work put into the creation of the League by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil). He is a Tory idealist, and I admire idealists, whether they be Tory or Bolshevik. But if we look at the Members who support this idea of a League of Nations, what do we find? We see that they are men quite dissociated from the hard, bare facts of life, men having no association with financial interests. We turn round to the other side, and we see a long row of profiteers, international financiers, and others, not a single one of whom has the slightest regard for the idea of the League of Nations. If the Noble Lord continues to pay tribute to the League of Nations, the best thing he can do is to come over

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    to this side of the House and adopt an honest policy towards humanity.
    In the opening speech of to-day's Debate we had an account of the Committees set up by the League of Nations. The first is to deal with disarmament. I have heard one or two remarks to the effect that these Committees are doing good work. But what has happened with regard to armament? We find the Admiralty selling battleships to small nations. We find America building a great fleet, and no attempt whatever being made to reduce armaments. Really these are very small matters compared with the real aim of the League of Nations. They constitute quite side issues, and even if these committees are doing good work that is no justification for this pseudo-League which has no existence at all. There was a conference in this country the other day of international delegates concerned with housing, and they paid tribute to each other, and especially to the Minister of Health. They were taken on special Cook's tours to see the thousand odd houses which are being built in various parts of the country. The most apposite remark was made by the Dutch delegate. He said, "What we want is, not principle, but houses." I hope his brother delegates will take that remark sincerely to heart. We have not heard anything about the work of the third Committee, which is dealing with transit. I think we ought to have some information about that. Then there is the tribunal of international justice. No action has taken place in regard to that. Really I cannot agree with the Noble Lord when he says a beginning has been made with the work of all the departments of the League of Nations.
    The main point I wish to make is that the League of Nations will never be a real League unless it is based either on international capitalism or on the international Labour movement. We have had some figures presented to us lately with regard to the operation of capital, and we find that, in the years before the War, Great Britain was investing abroad at the rate of £200,000,000 per annum, France was investing at the rate of £100,000,000, and Germany at the rate of £60,000,000 a year. As long as you have countries which have to expand, and as long as you have the present credit system by which men put
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    their money into foreign countries, you are bound to have encroachments into undeveloped territories. There is certain to be competition. No doubt many wars have been brought on for economic reasons. If one looks through the history of the last 150 years it will be found that the real root cause, the basic cause, of practically every single war has been an economic reason. It may have been disguised by religious or racial associations, but, after all, it has really been due to financial competition between nations. When I look at the ideas permeating the creators of the League of Nations to-day it seems to me they are trying to form an international trade union of international financiers and capitalists. The ramifications of finance are extending everywhere, and such extensions, with the consequent encroachments, naturally lead to war. They are faced with danger in the growth of the Labour movement, and really the League of Nations is nothing more than a League of anti-Socialists.
    I am surprised at the support given to it by a large section of the Labour party. I feel convinced that they have not really studied some of the sections of the League. If the Germans had won the War, there would also have been a League of Nations, as we were assured in the frequent statements made by the German Government before the Armistice. We were therefore faced with the alternatives of a German League or an Anglo-American League. Probably there would have been differences in the methods of those leagues, but there is really very little difference in the principles of the two systems. There is little difference in principle between German Imperialism and Anglo-American Imperialism, or between the Imperialism of a reactionary monarchy and that of a so-called Liberal Republican democracy. The real forces of the world are quite independent of the League of Nations. It has no power whatever, and is not likely to have any power. The real power lies in the monopolistic banking interests of England, America and Germany, which are dominated by people who are not likely to give up their power to a new body of this sort. They will manipulate it, just as the same financial interests work the puppets in this House of Commons. The real world forces today are international capitalism and international socialism. The old racial

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    differences between Germany and France, or between Germany and England, are being broken down, not for any sentimental reasons, but simply because the Conservatives in this country want to save their own skins. In connection with the revolution in Germany, the difference of opinion between France and England was not as to whether communism should be put down, but rather as to the method by which it should be put down. That is the policy which governs the Allied hierarchy to-day. That is why all this misery has been caused in Russia, and why the blockade has been continued, in spite of declarations to the contrary. They have waged war for two and a half years against these people, when they have no grudge against them except that they are socialists and support a political system which, if it succeeds, will undermine their own constitution. Talk about shaking hands with murderers—talk about atrocities; I venture to say that history will show that some of the right hon. Gentlemen on that Bench are as guilty as anyone in this respect. I am surprised that the Labour party pay such tributes to the League of Nations. It is not an elected or constitutional body; It is elected by the capitalists in the different countries. It has not even the so-called benefits of a Whitley Council; it has not even a 50 per cent. representation of labour. Even if its organisation were ideal, there is no provision in its constitution for democratic election. That is shown by the fact that the representative of the British section is a Noble Lord from another place. With all respect for his powers and capacity, he has no mandate to represent a single soul in this country except himself. That is typical of this democratic body which is supposed to be settling the future of the world.
    Even if it were intended to be an ideal, democratically elected League, there is no spirit behind it to carry it into reality. We saw that in the Debate on Nauru Island yesterday. We see it in the oil-snatching plans to capture Mesopotamia, in spite of the fact that in the Covenant it is stated that there shall be free rights and free trade for all rationalities. There is no sympton of any effort to make the League a reality on the part of those on the other side of the Committee. Ministers pay it mere passing lip-service, and the Secretary of State for War and the First Lord of the
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    Admiralty openly deride it. I would like to call the attention of the representatives of the Labour Party to the International Labour Section of the League. A Bill was before the House a few days ago called the Women, Young Persons and Children (Employment) Bill, and hon. Members who spoke upon it thought that this section of the League of Nations is going to benefit the working classes of this country. That, however, is an absolute myth. We do not know who represents Great Britain on the International Labour Section of the League. Up to a few months ago, it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorbals (Mr. G. Barnes), but since his resignation I do not think anyone has been appointed to fill his place. They are not elected, but are appointed by the League of Nations, which, to start with, is a self-elected body of international reactionaries. To imagine that they are going to try to benefit the Labour movement in this country is a false hope on the part of my hon. Friends around me. One of their outstanding measures was to the effect that child labour was to be limited to fourteen years; but in Russia, for instance, no children are employed under the age of sixteen, and as soon as this War is stopped they are not to be employed under the age of eighteen. With regard to the employment of women, again, in Russia, and for that matter in other countries, there are very much more generous provisions than there are in this country. This International Labour Bureau has no right to any association with Labour whatever, and the provision which Labour is getting from it are less generous than those which are given by the cruel Bolsheviks in Soviet Russia, who are guilty of such terrible atrocities and such terrible treatment of their children. What will happen when real disputes are referred to this body? It is little more or less than a trade union of international financiers, and we can imagine a date, not very far distant, when a big Labour dispute will be referred to it for its decision. That will mean endless delay. At present the pace is set by the most forward country. If a country has a highly organised Labour movement, if it sets the pace in a wages demand, or whatever demand it may be, that country is the forward country in

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    Europe and other countries are quite able to follow that lead. We can see that under this organisation, if matters referring to Labour have to be referred to it, probably causing months of delay, the progress of the working-class movement will not be following the most advanced country, but will be put back probably to the most retrogressive country, certainly to the average pace of all the countries. Then, further on, even if this great international Labour Bureau of the League of Nations—a very fine, high-sounding name, as so many of these bodies are—actually produces legislation which is beneficial to Labour, there is a clause providing that nothing produced by this bureau shall be binding on the respective Governments. It is quite obvious what a betrayal the League of Nations is to those millions of lives which were sacrificed for the right in the great War.
    The fact is there are simply two forces dominating the world to-day, and the League of Nations is quite powerless to affect those forces unless it works either with one or with the other. The two forces are international capitalism and international socialism. The Prime Minister was quite right when he started his campaign a few months ago to rally the forces against socialism. Whilst I do not agree with this side, I am inclined to believe that his diagnosis of the political situation was not far from the truth. Those are the facts as we see them today. The League of Nations, as long as it is dominated by the Supreme Council and as long as it is unelected, as a great many Parliamentary machines are, can only take the side of international capitalism, and there is no chance for Russia or any other democratic country to be allowed into the comity of those nations. The two forces will be fighting each other and intriguing against each other the whole time until one or the other is overthrown, however many Leagues we have, or however many commissions you set up to investigate conditions in other countries, or however many reports you have. Those are the facts as we see them to-day. If I wanted a Utopian ideal which was within the scope of practical politics, I am afraid I should have to look very much further than the League of Nations. I do not see any signs in the present League of Nations which would make me believe
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    that that body will really produce much benefit to humanity or will really improve the conditions of the masses. I have no doubt at all that the League of Nations will be very beneficial to the concession hunters and oil-share mongers and dividend seekers. I have no doubt at all that a small minority will get a certain amount of benefit out of the provisions of the League of Nations, but as to the masses of the people in this or any other country getting any benefit whatsoever from it, it is ludicrous to expect it. If I look for any ideal within the scope of practical politics in the not too distant future, I should thing some international Labour organisation is the only means to prevent war. If war is to be stopped, and the crimes of wars and the massacres of thousands of men who are pitted against each other without a real knowledge of why they are fighting, simply for the whim of this or that group of financiers, I would far rather trust in the provisions in the scope of the third international than in this so-called League of Nations.
    Captain LOSEBY: I have heard the hon. Member (Mr. Malone) make some interesting utterances, but I have never known him take a more amazing line than he has taken to-night. I must acknowledge that he has left me in a most depressed condition. I have come to the conclusion that there is not an honest man left in the House. His references to the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) cheered me. He referred to him as an idealist. I was glad to hear the words of praise that fell from his lips. But then I discovered that he was only a Tory idealist, and that even he was not completely honest. He could, however, prove his honesty by crossing the floor of the House and joining that splendid little mutual admiration society consisting of the hon. Member and, I suppose, those who sit with him. Even the League of Nations itself, which I had expected he would enthusiastically extol, he refers to as a trade union of employers and international financiers. Then, most amazing of all, he assures us that he is glad that his friend, the head of the Bolshevik Government in Russia, is now insisting upon harsher terms in regard to ourselves. An amazing line! I really find it difficult to believe the hon. Member is serious. I presume he agrees also with the latest of their terms. I understand a year ago they were prepared to pay

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    some portion of their debt. That debt has now been repudiated again, and that is enthusiastically applauded by the hon. Member. The truth of the matter is, and he knows it, that if there were a single country in Europe which was at anything in the nature of enmity with this country, it would get his enthusiastic applause. Of that I have not a passing moment of doubt.
    9.0 P.M.
    I have not risen, however, to endeavour to follow the hon. Member through his tortuous line of argument. I wanted to endeavour to put the point of view not of the intellectuals, but of the common or garden man in the street, and more particularly the man who went through this War and who has some difficulty in regard to this particular problem that we are discussing. I want to express some of our difficulties, and I want to warn the Committee against some of the dangers that appear to me to arise out of this scheme. This is no new idea, this League of Nations. It is no particularly brilliant conception. It occurred to every "Tommy" during the War and to every officer. It was uppermost in the minds of all of us. I remember one particular illustration that impressed itself very much on my mind. We were in an attack. I do not think there were more than 70 yards, certainly not 100 yards, between the German barrage and our own. We advanced between that double curtain of fire, and it looked as if at any moment the little part in which one was might be crushed out of existence, as so often happened on these occasions, some elementary thoughts occurred to my mind, and I turned round to an officer near me, and said, "What do you think of this whole business?" His reply was: "What inconceivable folly!" That was always in our mind. What was always impressed on our minds and always present to our minds was the madness of war. Whatever there may have been in the minds of people sitting at home, we, who were right in the thick of the fight, felt no anger in our hearts. We might have stimulated anger, but we felt no real anger in our hearts against the Huns. On a very similar occasion I heard one soldier, at a very critical time, say, "Thank goodness this is the last war." I said, "Why the last war"? and his reply was, "If it is not, then the world is bankrupt in Statesman-
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    ship." I am sure that 19 soldiers out of every 20 felt that.
    So long as the War was on and until the job was completely finished and the mess cleared up, we were all prepared to go on with it, but we know, or we believed, that the havoc was so colossal, the misery so tremendous, that when the world came to its senses again something would be devised, some machinery would be devised, some league of nations would be established to bring the nations together, and we felt that it would have firmly behind it the young men who had seen war and who knew what it meant. We realised as we never realised before that we still lived in a semi-barbaric age, but we felt that we should evolve from that, and we knew that the nations would come together under some scheme and that they would agree to support one another by force against any wanton disturber of the peace. On the other hand, I do not think that you will get the average man in the street to assent to the proposition that you must commit your safety to any half-formed machine, however great your hopes of that machine eventually may be, and however determined you may be in regard to the eventual perfection of that scheme by means of your enduring energy and perseverance. Our feeling is and our feeling was that you must clear up the mess of Europe. I think, and the average man thinks, that it is not cleared up yet. I do not suggest that you should delay getting on with your machinery. It is obvious that you must get on with it, and in due course the mentality of the world will recover from its stupor, and will then be in a position which it is not in to-day to go on and complete the job.
    What has agitated my mind and made me wonder if I was more stupid than other people, has been what appears to me a confusion of ideas in regard to the functions of the League. Let me give an illustration which has been so often given, namely, the case of Poland and the intervention of the League in regard to the affairs of Poland. I have never been able to understand what machinery it is intended that the League should make use of by those hon. Members who advocate that the League should intervene in the affairs of Poland. I have never been able to understand how it is suggested that the League should inter-

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    vene on behalf of Russia in favour of the only country that is the aggressor. Surely Poland would reply, "Do you guarantee us, on the other hand, against attack? By what force are you backed? What is your sanction? "They would make the obvious retort that the offensive is the best defensive. The League of Nations cannot possibly hold the arm of Poland behind her back unless the League or the Allied nations—call them what you like—were prepared to take up arms on behalf of Poland if Poland was attacked. In other words, until the League has adequate sanction behind it, it is not an effective machine. If the League had intervened on behalf of Poland, the aggressor, it should also have intervened on behalf of General Denekin and Admiral Koltchak on the defensive. It is obvious, as has been stated this afternoon with regard to this particular war, and with regard to the operations already announced, that it is impossible for the League of Nations adequately to exercise its functions at present.
    I really rose to express the feeling that is in my mind that this Committee should not be tempted to take up the type of attitude that was taken up in 1914 in regard to armaments. We are told—inspite of the fact that we have gone through a devastating war brought upon us largely by our own inconceivable folly, and more by the politicians than by the general community, but all are to blame—that we must put our trust in an untried machine which we know perfectly well is not adequate for the protection of the world to-day. We are told we must neglect the ordinary precautions with regard to our own safety. The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) has done me the honour—I felt it to be an honour of which I was not worthy—of denouncing me with the utmost violence because I humbly asked him whether, in spite of the League of Nations, we were entitled to ask for ordinary security, and he told me that security was the great bug-bear that had been raised, and that had brought about all this misery to the world. It was not "the great bug-bear of security" that brought the horrors of this War upon the people of our country. It was political intellectuals, who were not prepared or could not look at the facts in the face.
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    They did not see what was facing us. The great terror of Germany to the world was growing up before our eyes; their Navy and Army were growing against us; but we were too busy with our party politics to take the ordinary and most elemental of precautions. Just as hon. Members have said in these Debates, when they referred to Bolshevik Russia. It has absolutely betrayed us, and yet they are never tired of stirring up Bolshevik Russia against the people of this country. It was the same in 1914, when we were told that if we had an Army which was anything more than the tiny little Army of that time we were militaristic, and were threatening other people, or, at any rate, that we should be thought to be making threats against the great power that afterwards tried to crush the life out of us. I want to say a word, and this is my conclusion, on behalf of the ordinary common or garden man, who sees all the horror of the War, and who hopes from the bottom of his heart that something will come from this League of Nations and will do everything in his power to assist any body, political or otherwise, in his encouragement of it, but he is not prepared for that very reason to neglect ordinary precautions in regard to the safety of the people of this country. We know that we shall be accused of being militaristic and all kinds of other foolish things by the intellectual "high-brows," but I am perfectly convinced that we have, notwithstanding that, the mind of the people of this country behind us.
    Mr. T. A. LEWIS: I think the House will be gratified at the course which has been taken by this Debate to-day. I am sure the country will be more gratified. It has to a large degree cleared the air, and the authoritative pronouncements that have been made to-day will be welcomed on that account. It is not easy for us to forget the passionate welcome that was given to the idea of the League of Nations when first brought forward. I am sure I am not exaggerating when I say that there were moments during the great struggle when serious-minded men almost despaired of the future of the world. At that time of gloom the proposal for a League of Nations alone illuminated the future with a ray of hope and promise. One hon. Member said in this Debate that he thought that at one time that the allied War aims were all

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    included in the conception of a League of Nations. The general feeling was that everything was possible with the League of Nations, but that without it nothing was worth doing. During the Peace Conference the outstanding achievement, in which we are all very glad that Englishmen took so prominent a part, was the Covenant of the League of Nations. There were people who said that, however good the Peace might be, it was no good unless the League of Nations was part of it, and, however bad the Peace might be in its details and material arrangements, it would not be too bad if there came out of it the League of Nations. We are told, we read in the Press, and we hear from the platform, all manner of fine promises in connection with the League of Nations. I have been afraid sometimes that it might share the fate of those of which all men speak well. It has been criticised, it has been praised, it has been eulogised to the skies and fiercely denounced. It has received everything except what it wants most—namely, work to do. I know there are difficulties. The Supreme Council has not completed its labours—war is not over—the glowing embers of the great struggle burst into lurid flame daily in some part of Europe. There is as yet no settled peace, and it is impossible in these conditions to expect the League of Nations to make progress.
    It is exactly as if you sent a ship on its maiden voyage on to what is known to be a mine field and consigning it to your certain knowledge to irretrievable disaster. I know that there is a great deal of truth in that, but very ardent spirits of whom there are some in this House, whom we might almost call the red-hot enthusiasts, will say that this delay is very dangerous. You may say that it is a bad thing to precipitate the League into all this difficult work, that it is bad tactics, bad judgment, or any of those conventional errors which prudent diplomacy would eschew. But it is well to remember, as many in this House and outside it will, that the League of Nations is not an ordinary body, and therefore ought not to be judged by ordinary standards. It arose in no ordinary way, amid no ordinary circumstances. I do not know that it is depreciating the part which so many prominent foreigners have taken in the conception of the League of Nations to say that it really did not originate in any of the
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    Chanceries either of the New or of the Old World. I think that in a very real sense the League of Nations was born out of the outraged consciences of serious men and of the suffering common peoples of the great countries of the world. Therefore it is well on all occasions to remember that it is an extraordinary body with extraordinary opportunities. In any case it is an heroic expedient.
    I remember the Secretary of State for War early last year, when industrial troubles were harassing us and pressing the nation very hard, declaring that he deplored very much that the nation had come down so quickly from its high pedestal and had thrown over soon the heroic mood that had carried it through the War. There are plenty of us who share that regret to the full. If there was ever a time when the quotation which all of us have used was profoundly true—
    "There is a tide in the affairs of men
    Which taken at the flood leads on to fortune"
    —this was such a time in regard to the conception of the League of Nations. Another point which is always cropping up in this House is that the credit of public men and institutions as we know them to-day is at stake. Ordinary common people, myself among them, have believed statesmen when they have declared in overwhelming perorations that the League of Nations was to become a reality. They would do well not to disappoint those people, who are to be counted by the million in every land in Europe to-day. They are not direct actionists, and they are not Bolsheviks, but they are the very backbone of order and progress and all the forces that make for enlightenment throughout the world. You will do well not to disappoint those people. If you do, they will begin to think that indeed the wine of the new times is too strong for the old bottles of the pre-War world.
    One argument running through the whole course of the Debate is, that you must not give the League too difficult work to do at the beginning. I may be wrong, but that seems to me rather to mis-conceive the whole object and existence of the League. It was called into being, in the first instance, by the stress of a task which had become almost unbearable. If the League of Nations is alive to-day, it is because the outraged conscience of the people of the world called

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    it into existence to do work which everybody else had failed to do, that is, if possible, to devise means to prevent in future anything like the great catastrophe which we have gone through. Therefore it would be well in future if we turn the argument rather the other way and say that if the nations who united to undertake a difficult task by their determined co-operation were able to do it well, it would give the League the prestige and authority which would be a very good augury for the League.
    It may seem that I have criticised the Government in what I have said, but this matter transcends far the functions and authority and capacity of any single Government. Some of the critics in this House, and out of it, sometimes show anything but the spirit of the League of Nations in the criticisms which they have directed as to the performances of this or any other Government. I think they are underestimating the forces that are required. This is a work, not for a Government, but for the whole civilised world. Indeed, I am afraid that there is a general underestimate of the changed mood which has to take place in all the people of the world before the League becomes a success. We must have a metamorphosed public opinion, and the sooner it begins the better. Old Members of this House, who have heard more frequently than I, from the Treasury Bench, and have read in their papers, repeated arguments, about the time of the year when the Army and Navy Estimates come to be presented in this House—Estimates would be a little more swollen than ecomomists approve of—criticism would be met in advance by the dictume that, after all, "the best guarantee for peace is preparation for war."
    Mr. BILLING: Hear, hear!
    Mr. LEWIS: I have heard it many times, and, judging from the cheers, other Members have heard it also. But I am afraid they have not heard it in quite the same sense as I did. If ever there was an eloquent comment on this theory, it was the Great War. High explosives blew it sky high. I hope that nobody on the Treasury Bench or any other Bench will have the hardihood to bring that forward again, while the booming of the guns is still ringing in
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    the ears of the present generation. Is not it a better doctrine that the only guarantee of peace is preparation for peace? There may be some idea abroad that peace will come like a thief in the night, and that all we legislators and Ministers have to do is to sit down passively and go to sleep and await patiently the coming of the golden age. I am afraid that, unless the world and this country are prepared to spend as much money, talent, ability, enthusiasm, persistence and ceaseless effort in inculcating and enforcing the doctrine that you have to work hard to attain peace, the chance of world peace and the promise of the League of Nations are very much less than most of us hope that they are.
    One point more, which I hope is not controversial. If the idea of the League of Nations is to prosper, it must inform the whole internal economy of every country. You cannot work it in patches. You cannot bring it out on great State occasions and parade it in show conferences to be held here and there on the Continent. Every nation must begin at home. It must permeate every branch of the national activity. For instance, it must affect our political controversies. I hope very much that I am quite wrong when I say that there is something in this Debate which shows an inclination, or rather a lack of disinclination, to use the League of Nations as a football in party controversy.
    If the League ever comes down to be an issue between parties here, that is the beginning of the end of the League. I hope that nobody in this House, least of all prominent and distinguished Members, will give any colour to that suggestion. The spirit of the League must enter our industrial spheres also. During the War there were men who called themselves pacifists. They never ceased to preach against all military aggression and preparation, but during the War and since the War, night and day they have done nothing but foment discontent, strife, dissension, and tumult. That way lies the short cut of the return journey to the old world. Unless we can get the spirit of the League to enter our political affairs and our social and industrial spheres, it cannot be that power which we hope it will be in the future. The Debate has rather tended to show that the Committee at any rate want the Government

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    to do one thing—to give the League a good start and to give it prestige. Everybody is agreed that there is one thing this country must do for the League, and that is to send the most prominent and the most powerful man in the country to attend at its Council. I join very heartily with the many appeals that have been made to the Prime Minister, that if he can see his way to do so he should represent this country on the League of Nations Council. Recently we have heard the criticism that we want a League, not of Governments, but of peoples. You can get something worse than a League of Governments, and that is a League of minor Government officials. If the Prime Minister can take this matter in hand and give it the benefit of his powerful presence and unparalleled record, I think it will be agreed that this country and the cause of human liberty will owe him an unforgettable debt, and that he will thereby add a still more glorious service to an already long record, by helping to make the League what it was meant to be, the greatest international instrument working for peace and righteousness that the world has ever seen.
    Lieut.-Commander HILTON YOUNG: The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council referred in his interesting speech to the man of the world, to the fanatic, and to many other categories of critics. The incompleteness of those categories is exhibited, I think, in the speech of the hon. Member who has just spoken. Such views as the hon. Member has expressed cannot be called fanaticism, and they do not fall into the classifications of the Lord President of the Council. As I listened to the policy as it was advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, it seemed to me that I could summarise it in this way: that it was the League yesterday and the League to-morrow, but never the League to-day. I am a believer in the League to-day. That, I imagine, is what the right hon. Gentleman would call being a fanatic. Of such fanaticism I confess myself guilty. All through that very long—not too long—and most interesting account which he gave us of the secretarial activities of the League, listened to, I am sure, by every Member of the Committee with gratitude for what has been achieved and with confidence from those achievements
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    in what was to come as regards the secretarial work of the League, there was yet, I think, this feeling felt by some of us—what is the character of all these works that are accomplished by the League? They share in common the character of being secretarial works of the bureau. The feature absent from all of them was the feature of influence, of operation in the political sphere. Is that all the League which we desire? What we were looking for was the League which was to be a guarantee against war. With all these activities, great and beneficial as they are, we as yet see no sign of that greatest work which we hope the League is to do. We believe that it is possible for the League to begin that work at once. Against that we have the argument set, that the League was not invented in order to deal with Europe as long as it stays in the disturbed condition left by the War. It can be granted, certainly, that the League was not devised with that intention. The hope of those who drew up the scheme was that Europe would more rapidly resume a state of peace. But have not those who devised the scheme builded better than they knew?
    What is the alternative? A continuation of the present system of international control, exercised through the Supreme Council. Being less experienced than the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil), and in consequence, no doubt, less responsible and more rash, I feel, perhaps, inclined to speak of the Supreme Council in terms of less respect than those he allows himself. It appears to me as if the results of the exercise of international control by the Supreme Council were, to say the least of them, not satisfactory. Europe shows little signs of settling down; the members of the Council show all too many signs of not getting on well together. Is there any hope that Europe can be led back into the path of stable peace by the exercise of international control through the small group of Great Powers? I believe none whatever.
    Mr. BILLING: What is to take its place?
    Lieut.-Commander YOUNG: If the hon. Member will wait his turn he can state his view. If there is a reason why this system cannot be successful, I believe it is this: the other nations of Europe, who, are not represented and do not take part

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    in the deliberations of the Supreme Council, will not look upon its views as expressing authority. The Supreme Council shows time and again that these nations which still have the war habit will not be influenced by such decisions, for the reasons which we all know so well, that a Council of the sort which exercises dominion and does not owe its influence to consent, is not trusted and has no authority with those over whom it seeks to exercise authority. Is there any hope of establishing an authority which will be accepted by those over whom it seeks to exercise it except upon the principle of consent? Where else can you find any such authority as that but in the organisation of the League? Where is the alternative? The Supreme Council is failing to keep peace and restore peace. It is failing because it is seeking to impose authority. No authority can succeed which is not accepted as exercised by the consent of those controlled. No body to exercise such an authority can be found except in the League. When those who are opposed to the League now are only in favour of the League to-morrow, and say that you must wait until Europe settles down before you can safely impose political authority on the League—
    Mr. BALFOUR: I never said that.
    Lieut.-Commander YOUNG: They say until you get a stable peace you cannot get the League into working order. It is no good saying you must not go into the water until you learn to swim, because you cannot learn to swim until you go into the water. Let me turn to the account of the actual work of organisation, of international co-operation, to which we listened this afternoon. Where so much was encouraging, I feel it is almost ungracious to suggest any hint of disappointment, but I could not avoid feeling a sense of disappointment even in the direction of the bureau and secretarial work of the League. When the right hon. Gentleman dealt with the activities of the League in the region of international finance, he held out to us again the hope of the Conference at Brussels. The most notable thing about that conference is that it has not yet met. Those who are interested in its possible deliberations and in the work that it may do, have been noticing, I will not say with impatience, but with a sense of slight disappointment
    1584
    at least, the apparent difficulty which has been experienced in the assembly of that Conference at Brussels to deal with international finance. We hope there may be useful deliberations on the part of the Conference, because the region of finance is that in which the greatest influence can be exercised on the European position, and therefore it is natural that it is in this direction that those who desire to see the League working would desire to see it given its head. There are two great questions which await decision. There is, first of all, the question of the establishment of something in the nature of an international standard of currency which might enable depressed and semi-insolvent nations to overcome their difficulties as regards the extra depression and extreme variability of their exchanges. Some believe that by the establishment of such an international standard it might be possible to avoid worse hardships. The matter is one which is ripe for discussion and on which the League might be expected to arrive at a right decision.
    The other matter is perhaps the most important, and that is the question of a loan of working capital for the ruined states and districts which have been devastated by war and for the new States which find it impossible to start in their financial careers without assistance. Much, no doubt, has been done in that direction by granting credits to private firms and so forth, but much still remains to be done by an international loan of working capital which will take precedence of all other liabilities. Is it not possible that the League should be given more activities and more work in this financial sphere. Let me refer to the present state of affairs in Austria. Extremely good work and work of most extraordinary ability and practical utility is being done at the present moment in Austria by an international body for the restoration of the industrial and economic conditions there and for redemption from the hopeless hardships into which Austria has been thrust through the catastrophe of her unsuccessful war. By what body is it being done? It is being done by a branch of the Reparations Commission. To the ordinary hon. Member who is uninstructed in the subtleties of these matters, that may seem curious, since the Reparations Commission we understood was established in order to extract money

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    from those countries, rather than to put money into them. The work, as I say, is being done as far as the ordinary individual can judge, with extraordinary skill, and high public spirit. I do not mean to suggest that the League of Nations would do it better, but I think it could do it as well. The question suggests itself, why is this work not given to the League of Nations to do? It is a disappointment to find that instead of giving such work to the League, when another course presents itself, that other course is taken. It is a disappointment to anybody who tries to believe in the words of encouragement and hope which are so often spoken from the Government Bench as to their belief in the future of the League.
    In this matter as to whether or not the League is to be made that immediate and practical success which we hope and believe it must be in order that Europe may return to peace and contentment, like other hon. Members, I seem to see before myself two, at least, practical tests of whether or not the back of the Powers of the world is being put behind the League. There is, in the first place and particularly, that question of the representation on the League. There again is a question which is entirely in the region of principle and has no reference to any question of personality. At present it presents itself to us strongly that the best practical proof of any government that it will get its work done through the League is whether it connects up the organisation of the League with the high personnel of the Cabinet itself, and whether on all questions of first importance the Prime Minister attends and whether on all other questions it is the Foreign Minister who attends the League. If that is not done, what hope is there that the League will ever be looked upon by any practical man as an effective body? None whatever! It is a difficult argument to advance, because no doubt admirable work has been done by every individual who has been attending the meetings of the League. Everybody desires to recognise that and to applaud the spirit of helpfulness, of co-operation, and of optimism which, as we understand from the records, all those who have attended and advanced the proceedings of the League have shown; but still, what attention can be hoped for to the meetings of the
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    League when you find a large number not even of Ambassadors or the first representatives of the Powers, but comparatively subordinate diplomatic representatives? Of course, no attention is paid to it, and, of course, everybody knows that the seat of power is really elsewhere, in the representatives on the Supreme Council.
    That is one test, and the other vital test for the future is whether or not those Powers which are interested are going to press on with the Assembly. Here we are told that we must wait for the United States. If the other great Branch of the Anglo-Saxon race will join up with us, then the result will be incalculable good, but our hopes can be attained not so well, but in a practical form, even without the co-operation of the United States. If the other branch of the Anglo-Saxon spirit, tradition, history and blood is going to make the great refusal in this matter, then so be it. The injury will be great, but not fatal. We can still continue, but before we can go on to the practical Assembly, work remains to be done. Is it being done or not? The man in the street does not know. He goes so far as to know that the most vital thing in the constitution of the League is the constitution of the Council, and so far as he knows it has not been constituted yet at all. He wants to know whether that is being thought about and what the Council will consist of, and he wants to know that those who have the fate of the League in their hands are pressing forward to that practical consideration of the Assembly.
    There is another great question, but obviously forethought will be necessary on it, and that is the question of the admission to the League at some time or other of Germany and Russia. I do not want to argue it one way or the other. I only suspect that if no consideration is being given to that question at the present time, it is a sign that those who are withholding that consideration are not taking the League seriously. It may be said in reply that these are matters in which the influence of Great Britain goes no further than her own particular work which she would have to do, but I think that is not quite the whole account of the matter. The influence of Great Britain in this matter obviously goes a great deal further than that. The hopes of the future are in the League, and the hopes

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    of the League are in Great Britain. Her victory has given her the position, inevitably thrust upon her, of leader in these matters. It might have been otherwise At one time it seemed as if that position of leadership would have been on the other side of the Atlantic, but that is not to be so, as far as we know, and that casts the burden of responsibility back upon us. Knowing that, it depends upon us to realise those hopes which will be the sole adequate reward of the War for every man and woman who has taken an active part in it, not only for our own, but for the people of the whole world.
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: I believe it to be the case that this is the first full-dress Debate on the League of Nations which has taken place in any of the Parliaments of those countries which are associated with the League, and in so far as that is the case, I think it is a landmark in the history of our debates. I think it is also a matter of satisfaction to those of us who are supporters of the League to have heard the majority of the speeches that have been delivered during the course of this Debate. There have been one or two speeches, particularly that of my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Malone), full of gloomy pessimism with regard to the prospects of the League, also that delivered by the hon. and gallant Member for Bradford (Captain Loseby), who suggested that those of us who support the League propose to give up any security that we maintain at present and substitute for it the shadowy myth of the armaments which the League has not the means to possess. I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that that is not so at all. Those of us who support the League, desire to have sufficient security until it can be shown that the League can substitute anything that may be necessary in the way of national security.
    I do not propose to enter into the friendly controversy between the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council and the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil), but if I had to choose on which side I am in that controversy, I am on the side of the fanatics. I think the fanatics so-called—although I do not believe in being a fanatic in the sense suggested by the Lord President of the Council—are those
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    who are going to win through in the matter of the League of Nations. The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) delivered a very interesting speech on the question of Russia. If I recall his speech rightly, the hon. Gentleman suggested that the moment would come when the Government would have to recognise the Soviet Government of Russia. All I wish to say with regard to that is that it does seem to me that the word "recognition" is in many senses a fetish, and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman and the Government that they do not allow themselves to wander into a quagmire in the case of Russia as they did in the case of Mexico. For a considerable period of years we refused to recognise the Carranza Government of Mexico, for certain reasons upon which I do not propose to dwell. But I do hope the Government will not allow themselves to be borne away by similar reasons in respect of the recognition of the Soviet Government; otherwise, so far as one can see, the Greek Kalends may arrive before we have any settled relations with the country of Russia, with which it is in the interest of this country we should resume trading relations at the earliest possible moment.
    I should like to ask the right hon. gentleman what is the present position with regard to the question of Shantung? I do not propose to refer to that portion of the Peace Treaty negotiations which deal with the question of Shantung, but I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to inform the Committee what is the position now as between China and Japan on that particular issue. Whilst in that quarter of the world, may I also say that the question of the renewal of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance is, I believe, shortly to come before this Government, if indeed it has not already been discussed? Does the right hon. Gentleman hold the opinion that alliances of that nature are compatible with the League of Nations? I suggest that they are not, and I do earnestly hope that the Anglo-Japanese Alliance, if it is not too late, will not be renewed; but that if it is renewed—and this is distinctly apposite to the Covenant of the League—it will be for a very short space of time. The Lord President of the Council, in his eloquent speech earlier in the afternoon, deplored the absence in the Council of the League of Nations of a representative

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    of the United States. It is not for us in this House to discuss the reason why the United States have not become a party to the League of Nations, but I do earnestly agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin when he said that it would be a great encouragement to our friends in the United States of America if they saw some active work on the part of the League of Nations which, whilst showing to them that there was no desire on the part of this country or of Europe to entangle them in European difficulties, would at the same time show that the League was an organisation which was earnestly desirous, and indeed capable, of preserving the peace of Europe and safeguarding us against war. For that reason I would support the noble Lord the Member for Hitchin and others who have spoken in regard to the representations that have been made in regard to Poland.
    It was said by the Lord President to the Committee: "How can the Supreme Council go out of being until its work is finished?" But is that work going to be finished? Will he tell us that, and when? Has the Supreme Council to continue in existence for some indefinite period until, for instance, the end of fifteen years, at which time the plebiscite in the Saar Valley takes place? I suggest that the Supreme Council, as we know it, for various reasons has lost the confidence of the people of this country, and the sooner it goes out of existence, and gives place in our international policy, in so far as that is affected by the League of Nations, to the Council of the League of Nations, the better will it be for the world. There seems to be no reason at all why the work of the Supreme Council could not be carried on through the Ambassador's Conference in Paris, by the Prime Ministers from time to time meeting, if necessary, or by the ordinary methods of communication between the Governments in Paris, as there used to be prior to the War.
    The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down said in his concluding remarks that in the matter of the League of Nations Great Britain had taken a leading part in its creation, thanks very largely, as we all admit, to the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council, and particularly to the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin, and that it was the duty of this
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    country to lead the way in showing Europe, and the world, and our cousins across the Atlantic, that the League could prove to be a living organisation for the preservation of the peace of the world. I do earnestly hope that the Government and every Member of the Government will show by their actions in the future that they really have the League of Nations at heart. In this Debate hon. Gentlemen have spoken who have been through the mill—if that is a Parliamentary term to use—in the trenches, in France and other portions of the battle-front. I agree with what was said earlier, that all of us who went through all those experiences did hope and feel that something must be done when the War came to an end, and by whatever means, some machinery must be created, in order to save future generations from the calamitous disasters through which this generation has passed.
    10.0 P.M.
    Mr. MOSLEY: There are a few points in the speech made by the Lord President of the Council which require some consideration. The right hon. Gentleman said that the terms and conditions under which the various mandates are to be exercised were to be decided not by the League of Nations but by the victorious powers who signed the Peace Treaty. That to me is a new idea. I do not quite see how the right hon. Gentleman reconciles that statement with Article XXII. of the Covenant which provides that
    "The degree of authority, control, or adminstration to be exercised by the Mandatory shall, if not previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, be explicitly defined in each case by the Council."
    The right hon. Gentleman comes down here and says that the terms of the mandate are to be decided not by the League of Nations but by the victorious powers, and that the League is merely to exercise supervision over the carrying out of the mandate. The League is to have no hand whatever in the drawing-up of the mandate, but it has simply to tell the world once a year that what may possibly be a nefarious transaction is being carried to a successful conclusion. That is to be the only duty of the League of Nations in regard to the mandate. I do not see how the Government can reconcile their action with Article XXII. of the Covenant which specifically lays down that terms of the mandate shall be decided by the Council of the League of

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    Nations. I hope the Lord President of the Council will tell us where we stand in this matter, and make some slight effort to reconcile the actions of the Supreme Council with the Treaty to which they have put their signatures.
    I wish to say a word or two upon the question of the continued existence of the Supreme Council. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to infer that we desired the Prime Minister to attend the meetings both of the Supreme Council and the Council of the League of Nations. There is no reason why the eminent Statesmen, including the right hon. Gentleman who now represents this country on the Council of the League of Nations, should not transfer their activities to the Ambassadors' Conference while the Prime Minister is acting as a member of the League of Nations. I think the time has come when the League of Nations should occupy the centre of the stage. The League was not designed merely to be a nonentity, functioning in times of peace It was designed to meet difficulties. Many hon. Members have urged with some force that an instrument or machine which is never used must in time lapse into inutility. I know that the attendance of the Prime Minister at the Council of the League of Nations would entail on him a great deal of extra trouble and work. We all admit that hole and corner meetings in seaside villas are much less trouble, but they do not inspire the same confidence in mankind, and they certainly do not satisfy the aspirations of those who fought to wipe out this state of affairs. They do not in any way meet the desires of those who believed that they were fighting to do away with a condition of things in which eminent men met in back parlours and took serious decisions by which the fate of nations was decided. There is another point which is causing very great disappointment to the men of this country, that is the continued existence on the Continent of those great conscript armies which were so largely responsible for the recent catastrophe. I am advancing no new views. These views have been advanced far more clearly and effectively than I can express them by the Prime Minister himself, who, on the 11th of December, at Bristol, said:
    "If you want peace you must put an end to the conscript armies on the Continent of Europe …. The first thing to do to
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    prevent a repetition of the blunders of the past is to make it impossible for these conscript armies to exist in the future, and, if anyone goes to the Peace Conference feeling that this cannot be done, then he is not fit to go there as a representative."
    I realise that the Prime Minister in carrying out that pledge would have encountered vast difficulties in Paris. I submit that the time has now come when he should proceed to make some effort to give effect to his pledge. After all, we find ourselves to-day in the somewhat anomalous position that countries who are heavily in debt to us are asking and almost demanding financial assistance to relieve them of the necessity of imposing an adequate system of taxation; yet they are still maintaining large conscript armies and scarcely any reduction has been made in their pre-War standard. In view of our relative financial positions, they are practically enjoying these luxuries at our expense, and, at the end of five years, we find ourselves in the paradoxical position of paying for the maintenance of the very system on the Continent of Europe to abolish which we have sacrificed thousands of our best lives and spent millions of our treasure. It is the prerogative of this country, through the League of Nations, to call attention to the existence of these inflated armies on the Continent. It is a perfectly legitimate action for us to take to say that if there is no reduction of these armies there can be no financial assistance. It is absolutely our duty to humanity at this juncture to remove these weapons from the hands of these countries before some irresponsible statesman seizes them and again causes the youth of Europe to pay the penalty for the follies of the past. History repeats itself. Throughout history, with its long sequence of war, of provocation followed inevitably by retribution, the victor has snatched the torch of militarism from the hands of the vanquished and carried it until him self overthrown. I fear that certain Continental people, with whom we have been closely associated to our mutual benefit, have not noted the lessons of history and are in danger of incurring the retribution of the past. It is only through the exercise of our unparalleled position in the counsels of Europe to-day, through working in harmony with those who think with us in the League of Nations, that we can effect a change in

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    this order of things. I noted with some alarm this morning an article in a morning paper which hailed the failure of the League of Nations on the ground that its breakdown would leave only one alternative, which, as I understood it, was the Third International of Moscow. This morning the failure of the League of Nations was hailed with acclamation by the organs of high finance and by the organ which, on occasion, claims to voice—I will not say represent—the views of the Third International of Moscow. Clearly that shows where we are drifting; on the one hand reaction, on the other, Bolshevism. A great wave of world opinion has been generated by the cataclysm through which we have passed. That wave must flow into some channel, and the stream is every day sapping the barriers of reaction which are set up against it. It is for us now to dig a channel of world organisation and of progress to prevent this great flood of opinion, this great reaction against the War, from submerging yet another epoch of civilisation. I hope the Government will prove that they really are in earnest about this matter, and will set about using all the material advantages of the power at their disposal to effect a reduction in armaments. That is the first prerequisite of European safety I hope that, in addition, they will do their utmost to enhance the prestige of the League of Nations, will lend weight to its counsels, and set up an authority, superior to the narrower national vanities and jealousies, to which we may look as some safeguard that stands between us and the disaster which I, for one, feel threatens us to-day.
    Captain COOTE: With a great part of what has been said by the hon. Member who has just sat down I find myself in complete agreement, but I think he is a little exacting to imagine that the League of Nations could have sprung, like Athene, fully armed from the head of Zeus. I think he, perhaps, does not quite realise that its progress has beep more or less normal, considering that it has only been born something like four months. I cannot conceal my opinion that the subject of this Debate is by far the most important which this House of Commons has yet been called upon to discuss, because it is an international matter. Therefore it is eminently fitted to be discussed by the British Parlia-
    1594
    ment, which has become in a very real sense an international Parliament. It has to deal with international issues, and those, in the state of chaos in which the world finds itself after a great war, are, obviously, the most important. There was one part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Balfour) with which I did not find myself in complete agreement. He defined the sanction that was necessary to make the League of Nations effective, if I understood him aright, as a purely moral sanction, at least in the first instance. Is it not really necessary to have some rather stronger sanction than that behind the League of Nations in the first instance? Let me drive home my point if I can by reference to the question of the substitution of the League of Nations for the Supreme Council. Why is it that the Supreme Council still exists and to my mind usurps the functions which properly belong to the Council of the League of Nations? It is surely because the Supreme Council is the only body in Europe to-day which has clearly, to the eyes of all men in Europe, a force behind it which can enable it to impose its will upon recalcitrant nations. I suggest therefore that really it will be necessary to have some stronger form behind the Council of the League of Nations than merely a moral force in the first instance. When I say that I do not wish to be thought to feel that the function of the League of Nations is not eminently an educative function. If the League of Nations is a failure it will be a greater catastrophe to me personally than I can say, because I felt during the War that I was fighting in a War to end war, and I still believe that with all my heart and soul to-day.
    It may seem to be preaching to the converted to set up arguments against the League of Nations and then merely knock them down, because in this House I have yet to see a really able advocate of the case against the League of Nations. The arguments of such advocates as there are seem to me to be reducible to this, that you cannot change human nature. That appears to me to be a very great failure. If the War has proved anything at all, it has proved, or it ought to have proved, that human nature is exactly the thing which you can change. The German nation could, and did, by intensive national effort change its nature

    1595
    in the period of 40 years—just over a generation—and surely the fact that we, all unprepared as we were, actually won the War proves that human effort, provided it is sufficiently intense, sufficiently concentrated and sufficiently continuous, can accomplish anything and everything it cares to think about or to imagine. It is because I believe that that my hope for the future rests upon the League of Nations becoming a reality, and it seems to me that those who do not believe in the possibility of the League of Nations becoming a reality are reduced in logic to one alternative. They can only imitate Schopenhauer, and Schopenhauer was reduced to going outside and shooting himself. If there is any meaning in the word progress it is impossible that the world can contemplate a renewal of the past horrors, and if any man has so profound a distrust of human nature that he imagines a repetition of such horrors to be possible, then suicide is the only logical proceeding. I want to say a few words on the subject of armaments, and I am led to do so by a remark which fell from the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik). He seemed, in spite of his subsequent denial, to have some little leaning towards the old doctrine of the balance of power. I do not think I misrepresent him in saying that. What did the balance of power imply? It implied the forging of two instruments, one against the other. It is impossible to forge an instrument unless you put it to use, and if you forge a military instrument sooner or later you will have to put it to use. That is why I agree so distinctly with the remark of my hon. and gallant Friend opposite when he urged the Government to concentrate all their endeavours upon the one supreme task of inducing the nations of the world to reduce their armaments. But I would point out to him this fact, that the Government have been so far sincere in their endeavours to reduce armaments, that not only have we alone of the belligerents returned to the voluntary system, but our Statesmen have forced voluntarism upon our late enemies, and to my mind the greatest tragedy of the Peace Treaty is not what is in it, but what is not in it, namely, the compulsory institution of the voluntary system in France and America.
    Mr. BILLING: Thank God you live in an island!
    Captain COOTE: The Committee knows what my hon. Friend is. He is a political aborigine. He has one crude nature, and one which he is pleased to call common sense. But common sense does not postulate the absence of ideals, and if he tries to get along without ideals he will find that he will not get very far. I support what has been said in urging the Government to put all its energies behind the League of Nations, and in particular I would reinforce that appeal by declaring my heartfelt conviction that if we can only show to the people of the world some concrete action which the League of Nations has achieved, and which no other agency could have achieved, that will be a great educative force in the winning of public opinion behind the League. The League can never, never be a reality if there is any considerable body amongst us which is half-hearted about it. It is such an immense edifice that it needs the hands of all of us to build it, and unless we all of us set our hands to the task of building it it will never be built. My last word to the Committee is this: if you do believe what was said during the War, if you do believe in the reality of human progress, and if you do believe in the eradication of the vices of human nature, then get behind the League, work for it; fight for it, and, if necessary, die for it. Then, and then only, can the League become a reality.
    Mr. BILLING: I have listened to many Debates which have confused me less than this one. The hon. and gallant Member (Captain Coote) has told us—and I think he put it into a nutshell—that we must fight for the League and, if necessary, die for it. That is what we were doing for our country in the War. The Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) told us practically the same thing. He spoke of the fact that the advocates of the League of Nations lacked that passionate fanaticism without which no body of this kind can be accomplished. I admit that that is so, and because they lack it they will never accomplish that which they are out to do. What has struck me in the whole of this Debate is the lack of reality. Idealism is a very wonderful thing, but it finds no place in politics; it never has done. What then, without it, is the League of Nations, assuming that it is

    1597
    a reality, but an enlarged House of Assembly? You will find just as little idealism, just as little truth, just as little veracity, and just as little sincerity in their accomplishments, their work, and their efforts as you will find in this House. I do not say that in any offensive spirit, but does anyone who has listened to these Debates, and who has listened at Question Time and realised the bitterness that is put into these Debates, think it would be possible for anything to be accomplished if you relied upon a majority vote of this House? The Leader of the House knows as well as I do that if the Government relied on a majority vote in the Cabinet they would never come to a decision.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: You mean unanimous vote.
    Mr. BILLING: Thank you. The hon. and gallant Member corrects me. I should have said "unanimous vote." Is the Minister for War in agreement with the Government in this matter? I very much doubt it. No, the League of Nations was abortive in the first instance. To whom do they look for their parentage? To an American President who dropped it on the doorstep of Europe and deserted it. Do hon. Members think that any League of Nations can be a reality without America, or China, or Japan?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: China is in it.
    Mr. BILLING: Well, let us assume that China is in it. Where are the democrats in this House—where is the Labour party—who believe in the majority vote? If China be in it, what chance has Europe? I would beg this Committee to come down to the reality. It is a beautiful thing to speak about what the world should be, but
    "East is East and West is West,
    And never the twain shall meet."
    We seem to overlook geography and climate. Picture for one instant what this House would be if we had Esquimos there, Red Indians there, Frenchmen here. [HON. MEMBERS: "And Bolsheviks there."] Do you think—I am speaking quite seriously—that these various countries, each with a national character, will ever agree? It is so easy to stand here and talk. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to finish. It is so easy to talk platitudes; it is so easy for us in these
    1598
    islands to say, "what right has France to have a conscript army," but are we going to defend France again, or are we going to ask France to defend herself in the future? It reminds me of the bruised and battered drunkard on the morning after the fight when he is never going to drink again. There has never been a war after which the bruised and battered nations have not come together and said. "We will never do it again." Wars were fought before history was written, and wars will be fought again. So long as we possess the nature that we do possess and so long as the world possesses as many national characters as it does possess, each with its own peculiar opinions, so long will there be war.
    Is there any hon. Member who would suggest that we should sell our fleet or scuttle it and disband our Army and rely on the unanimous vote of some nebulous League? Is there any man so lost to all sense of responsibility to this country? Are we all internatalists? Personally I hate the internatalists with all sincerity. Natal pride is only the aggregate of family pride, and a man who is not proud of his nation can never be proud of his home. I may have a small mind. I may not be able to see the wonderful visions which hon. Members have seen in this Debate. The words
    "The Parliament of man, the Federation of the world"
    were quoted this afternoon. They are the words of a poet. A poet is very useful for our hours of ease and may possibly inspire us to great and bold efforts, but he is no use in practical politics, and the League of Nations is just as much a matter of practical politics as the government of the country.
    Many Members have attacked the Supreme Council. There are two differences between that body and the Council of the League of Nations. The first is, we have tried the one and have not tried the other. When we do try the other I expect we shall find that it is equally futile to bring peace. The second difference is that the Supreme Council represents only those people who fought and suffered in the endeavour to bring peace to this world, and not those who stood out of the fight and let others profit by it. Surely the nations who did make the sacrifices to win the War and allowed the League of Nations to come into

    1599
    existence have a greater right to decide, having proved that they were idealists by the very blood which they spilled in fighting for their ideals, how to bring peace to the world than the League of Nations, which has among its members neutrals that were so neutral that they did not mind who won the War.
    To me it seems hopeless that we are debating this question to-day when in twenty years we shall have the old militant spirit throughout the world. It is now a little sore and bruised. We feel that we do not want a war to occur again. Immediately after the South African War I swore that I would never again have anything to do with war, but in August, 1914, I thought otherwise. Thousands of men in this country say to-day that they have finished with war, but if the wardrum beat again in another five years those same men would be the first to come to the colours. It will always be the same. The League appears as an artificial edifice built on foundations that cannot stand the strong passions of humanity. Even the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) became passionate in his attack on the Lord President of the Council, and the latter rebuked him, and rightly so. If we feel that we have suffered injustice as a nation or as individuals we want to assert our rights.
    Finally, I would ask, if the League of Nations is to be a reality how is it to enforce its decisions? By a gang of international police. Is France going to allow England to enforce League decisions, or is England going to allow Germany? No. There will be a gang of internationalists, men who will take up the sword and the rifle for the reason that Germany took them up—for the sheer love of Prussianism, or killing, or call it what you like. Men will be called to the banner of the League as pure mercenaries. If the League becomes a reality, it will be a capitalist monopoly, because capitalists can buy public opinion, and public opinion will influence the elections of the League, just as it influences elections to this House. I know that Labour is bitter against capitalism.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: We are more bitter against war.
    Mr. BILLING: If ever we get a League of Nations, if ever we get its will en-
    1600
    forced by international police, they would be the parasites and the satellites of international capitalists. I want to see Labour delivered from that, although Labour may not imagine I think so well of it. I do not want to see the national spirit die out. At question time to-day it was amazing to see hon. Members jumping up and attacking the Secretary of State for War for taking away the national dress of Scotland and for proposing to disband the Scots Guards and the Irish Guards and the Welsh Guards. What do those regiments stand for? For national ideals. Those men are willing to die, not for international policy, but for national ideals, for what they honestly believe to be true. Unless the world came into it—it never will—and unless it can be governed by greater ideals than it has ever been my lot to see in the political world in my time, I am afraid the League is abortive and a fallacy. America is laughing at us to-day. The Americans are essentially a practical people. Are we to disarm the whole of Europe and be the slaves of an armed American nation? America is building ships and arming them to-day. "Be prepared" is the motto of the Boy Scouts in this country and in other countries. It is a very fine organisation which teaches chivalry.[Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh—
    Mr. STURROCK: I am not laughing at the boy scouts, but at the hon. Gentleman's arguments.
    Mr. BILLING: I do not propose to allow the interruption to prevent me saying what I wish to say. The national spirit has a real meaning. Hon. Members who plead the cause of any nation but their own are not confined to this side of the House. The show we are making out of a total of 770 Members is surprising on this full-dress Debate. I appeal to Members not to be led aside to wasting further time on what will never be a reality, no matter what we may wish. Let us, after these six years, try to get to reality. In a thousand years there will still be nations. I think we should give a little more time to getting unity in our own Empire. If we cannot rule Ireland, will the League of Nations or a Chinese mandate tell us how to do so? Idealists tell us they would welcome Germany into the League of Nations, but

    1601
    if Germany wants to prove the failure of the League, she could seize it by becoming a member and by giving a minority vote on all occasions and thus checkmate the League on every occasion on which it wished to come to a decision.
    Mr. LAWSON: I have listened to the exposition of realism by the hon. Member (Mr. Billing), but if he had not told us several times we would have taken it for something else. I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) and I wondered whether that speech had made the same effect on the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench as it had on the rest of the Members of the House. That speech coming from a Member considered to be of the right wing, is more significant than it may appear to be, and when read tomorrow will have considerable effect upon large numbers of moderate-minded men who have hitherto been held from some of the more direct ways of dealing with questions. In the case of further military developments, I sometimes ask myself, where this country or any other country can get the men to face that position. The hon. Gentleman says that directly the drum beats the men will be there, but I can assure him that that may have been right in the case of the number of men that were active in the Boer War, but when you consider that the whole of the nation was concerned in the last War—and I did not rise to be a brigadier-general, but I attained the full rank of a driver in the artillery—I want to point out the significance, even now, of the fact that in order to get soldiers the Secretary of State for War thinks it necessary to trick men out in red coats once more as an attraction. He can trick them out in pink if he likes, but he will not get soldiers with the prospects held out by the hon. Member. I wish the hon. Member could come into some of our meetings in the villages and small towns; he would find there that some of the men who are most active in supporting internationalism are those who were prepared to suffer for their nation. The exposition of internationalism given by the hon. Member is romantic in the extreme. It does not signify that, because a man believes in international organisation, he does not love his nation or that he is not proud of his
    1602
    country or even of the town in which he lives, but I want to point out the significant fact to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Balfour) that more and more as the reality of the League of Nations becoming a concrete thing recedes into the distance men are relying upon international labour organisation as the only hope of the world. Very shortly the miners will be meeting on the international field; they are cementing that organisation. Ex-service men are doing the same thing; whichever way you turn men are relying upon the international labour organisation. They are prepared to give their support to the League of Nations in so far as it proves itself worth while, and they are prepared to use what ability and strength they have to make the League of Nations a living reality, but at the same time every failure of the League of Nations to create the spirit of peace and to build up a real organisation in the world strengthens the tendency to an organisation which may have other effects than those that some of us desire. One hon. Member spoke of the Labour party's attitude towards the League of Nations, but I am sure my faith in the League withstood the shock of his speech, even with his direct attack on labour, but I scarcely survived the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite who supported it.
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  NAURU ISLAND AGREEMENT [EXPENSES].
  Resolution reported,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the share of the United Kingdom of the compensation payable in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to confirm an agreement made on the 2nd day of July, 1919, between His Majesty's Government in London, His Majesty's Government of the Commonwealth of Australia, and His Majesty's Government of the Dominion of New Zealand, in relation to the Island of Nauru and of other expenses in connection therewith."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I asked a question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in charge of the Resolution yesterday, and I have no doubt he can answer it. I particularly wished to know what was the price paid to the purchasers of the German and other enemy shares in this company when it was sold by order of the Public Trustee after the outbreak of War, and I want to know what we are paying now for those shares, because I would urge that if those shares were sold to a very small amount during the uncertain period of the War, when the issue was in doubt, and the value, I think, could not have been very high, and we are now asked to pay a very high price, it is not fair to the British taxpayer, and I think there ought to be some special arrangement made. The sum we are asked to provide is not much as things go to-day. We have got used to thinking of tens of millions of pounds, but I submit the financial position is so serious that it is time, at any rate, we began to think of millions of pounds. The amount to be paid is £3,500,000, of which this country pays 42 per cent., Australia 42 per cent., and New Zealand 16 per cent. There is not this money in the Treasury. Last week Treasury Bills were issued to the extent of £16,000,000 odd. We got in Treasury bonds to meet those in that week of £6,000,000. That meant we piled up a Floating Debt to the amount of some £10,000,000. If we pass this Resolution, and if we afterwards pass the Third Reading of this Bill, we add another £3,500,000 to our Floating Debt, and that is going to put up the price of every article of common use of the ordinary man and woman. The hon. and gallant Gentleman may say the Commonwealth of Australia and the Dominion of New Zealand are going to pay their share. They happen to be in debt to us, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Wrekin (Mr. Palmer) in the Debate yesterday. We are going to affect values through an increase of the Floating Debt to that extent. Under these circumstances, I do not think this House should pass this Resolution without the most careful examination. I am going to endeavour to point out to the House that we are making a thoroughly bad bargain. This company before the War was, I understand, prosperous. It was doing a flourishing trade in this chemical manure. It then had a free market. I think I am right in
  1604
  saying that Australia could not take anything like the annual production of this island. When during the War, this island was taken, there were great rejoicings in Australia—this was before the days of the League of Nations—for this island contained sufficient phosphates so supply the Australian farmers for 200 years. In future, therefore, the market is going to be restricted. As the Bill says, the only countries to which phosphates may in the first place be sent are Great Britain and Australia. It is quite true that after the wants of these countries are satisfied that the phosphates can be exported, but we are going to take these phosphates and put them on the market for British agriculturists, or those of Australia, at practically cost price, less the very small cost of administering the island, the population of which is about 1,500. Therefore, these phosphates are not going to fetch the market price. Therefore, the company which we are now taking over and going to work as a national concern is not going to pay us anything like the dividend paid to the original shareholders. That is obvious.
  The hon. Gentleman in his reply will probably point out—as I would if I were in his place—that what we lose in the swings we will make up in the roundabouts, so that the British farmer will gain by getting cheap phosphates. That is a complete fallacy. Phosphates from this Pleasant Island are three times the distance of our natural sources of supply, Florida and French North Africa. The factor of the situation is that we shall have to carry a heavy bulky thing like this rock—for we have to convert it into super-phosphates when we get it here—which means distance and freight. I am going to make this statement on chance—not having been able to verify it, as the Bill was only printed three days ago—that during the War practically no phosphates were brought to this country from this island, when they were badly needed, for the simple reason that we could get them from Florida and North Africa in a third of the time and at a third of the freight.
  I believe that, in spite of this artificial price, we shall get our higher phosphates from Florida and North Africa and not from this island. From the point of view of business we are paying a highly inflated price for this product. Not only this, but the company was run on business lines,

  1605
  and who is going to run it now? It will be run by an Australian Commission, and who will they be? These representatives will be given some sort of a post which probably their political services have earned and they will run this company and it will not be run on business lines. It is not going to pay. I submit to the House that this is an extremely bad bargain. I may be wrong, but I am giving my view according to facts which I have been able to obtain from a gentleman who has been 25 years in this very trade of artificial manures, and I am giving my own view from such facts as I have been able to gather from him. I shall be very glad to hear the reply of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. To allow this proposal to go through as it is presented would not be acting up to our duty, and unless the explanation is more satisfactory than it was before, I shall be compelled to vote against it.
  Mr. PALMER: I want to enter my protest against this financial resolution on what are not exactly business grounds, but moral grounds. We have spent the whole sitting to-day discussing the virtues of and the possibilities of the League of Nations. If we pass this Resolution and give the Government financial power to make this bargain, then we fly in the face of the League of Nations, and put ourselves in an equivocal position which we shall find ourselves very difficult to justify. The Leader of the House made the amazing statement that if the League of Nations did not approve of this bargain they could negative it. I could imagine nothing more harmful to this country and the practical ideals of the League of Nations than that one of their very first judgments should be to reverse a decision of the British Empire. [Interruption.]
  Mr. MILLS: Is it in order for hon. Members to give imitations of animals?
  Mr. PALMER: If the House has any sincerity in this matter, and if the Government really mean the things said by a distinguished and much respected Member of that body, we cannot without very serious consideration pass this resolution. I do not think it is necessary to spend the money of the taxpayers in this way at a moment of great financial stringency. I am not a believer in State management. I think we should leave this enterprise to the company which has
  1606
  carried it on with great success before and since the war. We are in a position to-day in which every penny we can save we ought to save. It may be we will make money out of this, but it is a speculation, and, although there are gentlemen in this House who do not know the difference between an investment and a speculation, I do. I protest against the House passing a resolution putting on the British taxpayer a new charge in circumstances which have not been thoroughly examined. We know nothing of this agreement. We have the statement of the hon. Gentleman, in the admirable and lucid speech which he gave us last night, that this is a good bargain. I have not sufficient confidence in the business ability of the Government to believe that they know a good bargain when they see it. It is our duty to examine this matter very closely. On two grounds I object to this Resolution. On two grounds I object. First that if there is any meaning in the League of Nations—and the speech of the noble lord, the member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) last night has not been adequately answered—we are cutting athwart the League. I object secondly on the ground that we know nothing of this bargain and we are not entitled at this moment when the British taxpayer is borne down by expenditure to put a new halter round his neck and a new burden on his back. I shall vote against this in the division lobby.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY OF SHIPPING (Colonel Leslie Wilson): If my hon. and gallant Friend the member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) had not risen so rapidly, I had intended at once to answer the question which he put to me last night as to the price paid to the German shareholders for these shares. I informed the Committee yesterday that the shares were sold by the Public Trustee in the year 1917 and that they were bought by British people. In actual number the shares consisted of 187,179 £1 ordinary fully paid shares; 186,006 £1 ordinary shares 10s. paid up; 42,610 £1 seven per cent. First Preference shares and 19,535 £1 six per cent. Second Preference shares In 1917 these shares fetched the sum of £574,818, and as I informed the Committee yesterday at that time the company was paying somewhere about 7 per cent., although before the War, when shipments, naturally, were larger, the Company had

  1607
  been paying anything between 25 and 50 per cent. My hon. and gallant Friend the member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) has, apparently, shifted his ground of attack on this measure. All the attack brought against it yesterday was on the ground that we were acting selfishly and trying to make something owing to the Mandate of this island having been given to us. Now, apparently, the ground of attack is that we have made a bad bargain. I can add little to what I said yesterday, when I dealt very fully with this point. It is agreed, I think, by everyone who has studied this question, that the price we are paying, while not unfair to the company, is undoubtedly a good bargain for the Government. It has been said that people do not know anything about the agreement. The agreement between the three Governments concerned is attached to the Schedule of the Bill, and that between the Governments and the Company is in the Library of this House. It is, therefore, open to hon. Members to study the agreements in every detail.
  My hon. and gallant Friend said that before the War this Pacific Phosphate Company had a free market, and that, because of this agreement, it is likely to lose money, because it has been arranged that Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom—which is putting up the money—are to have this phosphate at the cost of production, plus administration expenses, the necessary cost of reduction of capital, and interest due on capital. He puts forward, as a reason for that, that Australia cannot take a sufficient quantity of the phosphate. If Australia cannot take the full 42 per cent. to which she is entitled, there is all the more to be sold in the world market at a commercial price, which, undoubtedly, will be higher than the price at which Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom will receive their proportionate shares. It is also said that it is no use because of the distance of Nauru, and that you can get these phosphates from Florida and the North African Coast. In the first place, however, this is a very different grade of phosphate, and, secondly, Germany in the past got a very large amount of her phosphate—in 1913 she used 3,500,000 tons—from Nauru. As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, the distance
  1608
  from Nauru to Stettin is further than to the United Kingdom. If Germany could do that before the War, at a profit to herself, surely we should be able to do it after the War. The hon. Member for the Wrekin (Mr. Palmer) said that the Lord Privy Seal stated to the House yesterday that this agreement would be negatived by the League of Nations. I wish to make it clear that my right hon. Friend never said anything of the sort. He interrupted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean), who said:
  "But the whole point of this purchase being concluded is that it follows from a mandate properly given in the League of Nations."
  And then my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal said:
  "No. I think this is so vital, that I would like to make it clear to my right hon. Friend. The two questions are quite distinct. One is the administration of territory, which the League of Nations has a perfect right to see is properly done. The other is the purchase of a trading company. I do not think that is a subject which would properly come under the League of Nations at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th June, 1920, Col. 1331, Vol. 130.]
  Mr. PALMER: Administration of the territory is included in the agreement.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman read what the Lord Privy Seal said in column 1326?
  Colonel WILSON: Column 1331 comes after column 1326. This is the statement of the Lord Privy Seal. I do not think anything can be more clear than that. If my right hon. Friend misunderstood in his previous statement this makes it clear. There are two definite and distinct undertakings. One is the administration of the island, which properly would come under Article 22 of the League of Nations and on which probably a report would be made annually to the League of Nations. But the purchase of a private company by the three Governments is obviously a commercial undertaking and I do not see the difference between the purchase of this trading company by the three Governments and the purchase by an individual. It is a purely commercial business and my right hon. Friend said he did not see that it could come under the League of Nations at all. I think the House agreed yesterday that, whatever the opinion be on the question

  1609
  of the propriety of this agreement as regards the League of Nations, it was unanimously of opinion that it was really a sound investment for the British Empire.
  Mr. T. THOMSON: Whether the bargain be a good or a bad one does not seem to be to affect the rightness of the question under Clause 22 of the League of Nations, because there we are distinctly told that in the administration of the Governments of any mandatory Power we must secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other members of the League. Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that in the administration of the island we are going to afford the other members of the League equal opportunities of trade and commerce in these phosphates? Because, under Clause in of the Bill, it was distinctly stipulated that these phosphates should be sent in certain agreed proportions to the United Kingdom, to Australia, and to New Zealand, and that if any one of those three countries wished to veto the sale of the phosphate elsewhere they had power to do so. Therefore, the agreement that we passed yesterday provides that if Australia, New Zealand, or ourselves care to say they will take all the phosphates which are produced in any one year, no other country, whether a member of the League of Nations or not, can have any share whatever in it. That is distinctly a contravention of the League of Nations to which the House has been for the greater part of the evening doing lip service, with one notorious exception, and it is somewhat of a travesty that within the next half-hour the same House should be asked to sanction an agreement which is distinctly a violation of Clause 22 of that agreement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that the Lord Privy Seal was incorrect when he said this purchase would not come under the League of Nations. We may accept that the purchase as between the Pacific Company and the Governments could not be interfered with by the League of Nations, but that does not alter the question of the administration of the island and of the sale of the phosphates afterwards. You cannot surely differentiate and say that as administrators, as a mandatory Power, we can prevent other countries getting these phosphates, and at the same time act under the League of Nations. If a private company made that distinction, it is a
  1610
  question whether we morally, as a mandatory Power, could support it in such a stipulation, which is a distinct violation of Article 22. It is impossible to carry out Article 10 of the Bill that we passed yesterday, which provides that none of this phosphate shall be sold elsewhere, if the three nations say they will take it, and square that with Article 22. As to whether it is a good bargain or a bad bargain, we have been told that the amount paid for the shares was £574,000. We are asked to sanction the payment under this Resolution of £3,500,000 for shares that are only worth a little over £500,000.
  Colonel WILSON: I was dealing then with the German holdings which were sold by the Public Trustee.
  Mr. THOMSON: What was the total price paid for the whole holding, because that is the material point on which we are asked to say whether this is a good bargain or a bad bargain?
  Colonel WILSON: Of the total price of £3,500,000 Australia will pay 42 per cent the United Kingdom 42 per cent., and New Zealand 16 per cent. Our part is £1,500,000.
  Mr. THOMSON: On the showing of the hon. and gallant Member, we are asked to pay £3,500,000 for £1,200,000 of share capital, on part of which only 10s. per share has been paid. On his own showing, that is not such an excellent bargain. But the point as to whether it is a good bargain or a bad bargain is not really germane to the issue as to whether as the mandatory Power we are seeking to reserve for ourselves and our Colonies privilege which we are not giving to others. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because in the Debate which preceded this we practically unanimously pledged ourselves to support the principles underlying the Covenant of the League of Nations which, in Article 22, provides that the mandatory power, as we are in this case, shall not take any privileges to itself, but that any trading rights in the territory subject to the mandate shall be shared equally in regard to trade and commerce by other members of the League. I fail to see how you can possibly square the agreement which we are asked to sanction now with the lip service that we pay to the principles of the League of Nations.
  Major-General Sir N. MOORE: I do not want to argue whether this agreement is or is not a contravention of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Is it a good bargain? We get 420 million tons of superphosphate for £3,500,000, which works out at 2d. a ton. I know something about superphosphates, and what it means to Australia and to agriculture generally. The State-owned railways of Australia carry superphosphates at a farthing a ton, although their working costs are 1½d. a ton. They do that because they know that for every ton of superphosphates they carry they get five or six tons of wheat. Not only the British Empire, but the whole world, is starving for wheat. Under the circumstances, this agreement is good business. I am glad the Government have shown that they have some desire to improve the finance of this country, and that they realise that, in acquiring these eight acres of rock which we have heard such a lot about, they are really making a good bargain. I congratulate them.
  Captain BENN rose—
  HON. MEMBERS: Divide!
  Captain BENN: If hon. Members are impatient, they had better go elsewhere. I hope the Government is gratified at the support of their candid friend (Sir N. Moore). We have got the real truth now. The Lord President of the Council this afternoon told us of the great advantage of having what is called a red-hot conviction. I do not think anyone will accuse the Government of having a red-hot conviction in this matter. It is what the hon. Gentleman whose knowledge of Australia is unequalled, called good business. The Lord President of the Council told us that we must not put too much work on the League of Nations. Here is a little bit of work that might be done by ourselves, but we are not prepared to do it, because this agreement is good business. Anyhow, it does give an insight—that is the value of the whole of the Debate, and that is the reason that we are opposing the Resolution, and shall divide against it—into the practical support which the Government are prepared to give to the ideal to which all day they have been paying only some lip service. Incidentally, it is a commentary—I hope that the Members of the Labour party will take note of the fact—upon the subject of nationa-
  1612
  lisation. We are told that whenever an industry in nationalised and run by the State it is always a failure. That is supposed to be a great issue which divides parties. This is a small example of what the Government will do in the way of running industries by means of a National commission if it suits their purpose and they think it is good business. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Wilson) seemed to think that there was something contradictory in the argument that it was a bad bargain and also a wrong bargain. I venture to think that it is both. It is arguable that it is a bad bargain, and it is certainly morally wrong to make it. I go further, and say that all bargains which are morally wrong are bad bargains. Let us look at the finance of it. The Clouse is asked to vote its share of—3,500,000 to take up shares in a Government speculation. The question is whether the shares are worth the money. The total sum that is being paid is £3,500,000, and the total share capital is £1,200,000, of which we are told 375,000 shares are only paid up to the extent of 10s., and 225,000 are not called up at all. Really, therefore we are paying £3,500,000 for a capital approaching £700,000 in value. It is arguable that it may not be good business, especially when you consider that though in a free market the company may have been making high dividends, the conditions of this agreement are that they shall not have a free market. Indeed, the argument put forward is that this is a way of getting cheap phosphates for the farmer.
  Sir N. MOORE: For the world.
  Captain W. BENN: If the phosphates are cheap.
  Sir N. MOORE: Cheap wheat.
  Captain BENN: Then what becomes of the high dividends for the company. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot pretend that it is going to be cheap phosphates and high dividends. When we hear so much about the great boon being conferred upon the farmers and the great benefits that are going to come in the direction of cheap wheat on account of this agreement, we are entitled to ask whether it is a wise thing to take shares in a company which has to supply its products at a compulsorily cheap rate. What is going to happen to the dividends? Are they going to appear with the

  1613
  dividends of the Suez Canal shares, or what form will they take? Probably the Government have considered that question. We should like to know what provision they have made for showing the country from time to time the result of this new speculation. There are so many of them now; we have shares in dyes and all sorts of things. It would be interesting for the public and for the House of Commons, which largely consist of business men—
  Mr. SUGDEN: And lawyers.
  Captain BENN: It would be interesting to know what has been the result of the speculation into which the Government has invited us to enter. This resolution covers every branch of the working of the agreement. We are paying compensation to the old employés. We are paying the expenses involved in the transfer, and of course under the agreement the whole administration of the island will be provided for. I do not know whether the assets of the company are going to be solely the produce of the sales or are going to result partly from customs dues.
  What are the expenses going to be? In the very attractive prospectus which is given to us by this nationalising Government we are told that the education of the natives is to be provided for, and a police force, courts and jurisdiction are to be set up. What is it all going to cost? It is quite proper when we are asked to take shares in a company to bring those subjects under review, for to attempt to divide the business of the island from its administration is to carry refinement too far. It is one business, one island, under one control, and you cannot say that it is a company exploiting the phosphates and that somebody else is running the island. Are we only pursuing a policy of vulgar grab? Is it a wise policy even from the point of view of wheat production? Where the phosphates before used to go to Germany, or they may have gone to Russia, now the policy of the Government, not only in this respect, but its general policy is founded on the totally mistaken idea of grabbing everything for ourselves and forcing things to be grown here under the impression that somehow by doing so we are increasing the food supply of the world. I am old fashioned enough to imagine that the best way to get wheat is to grow it in the place that is best able
  1614
  to grow it without any artificial stimulus I was in the House at the time when it held that view. My right hon. Friend sat in the House with me, and he used to vote—
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison): I never sat in a House of Commons which voted that artificial manure was not good for growing corn.
  Captain BENN: The right hon. Gentleman sat in a House of Commons which believed that the best way to get full supplies of wheat was to let it grow where it was best able to grow, of course with the assistance that was necessary from manures and so on. But what I object to is forcing farmers to grow wheat, I do not mean with phosphates, but with special subsidies and assistance, whereas what we should do is to free all sources of wheat supply in order to have the advantage of the world's supply of wheat. We are going to take away those phosphates from Germany. That is the whole point. If hon. Members read Professor Starling's report on Germany, they will find that artificial manures is one of the first things they require to get back into a state of economic health. I am not interested in the German point of view very much, but I am interested from the world point of view. So long as you are pursuing this policy of trying to destroy Germany economically—this is a severe blow—you are aiming a blow at the economic health of the whole world, including ourselves most of all. Will hon. Gentlemen read the report as to the effect on the health of the people and the children in Germany of insufficient feeding due to insufficient wheat, and also the report of Professor Starling which months ago pointed out that one of their chief needs was artificial manure?
  We are sending delegates in a few weeks' time to a financial conference of the League. It is one of the great achievements to which the Lord President of the Council referred. We are having a great conference, in which the United States and the enemy Powers will be represented, to deal with the economic reconstruction of Europe. It will meet with the knowledge that one of the chief sources of supply of fertilisers for Germany has been, in defiance of our pledge, diverted to another course altogether. Of course, the whole thing

  1615
  will be a farce. Our good faith will be impugned, and, one is bound to say, impugned with good reason. This arrangement should, of course, have been subjected to the criticism of, in fact it should have originated from, the Council of the League. [HON: MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because we have pledged our word that it should. [HON. MEMBERS "When?"] I will come to that, and deal with it fully in order to meet hon. Members' wishes. The hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of it as "a solution which commended itself to us." Who are "us"? It should have commended itself to the League of Nations, because it is undertaken that we would be bound in respect of the mandated territory. If hon. Gentlemen will read Article 22, which is a solemn engagement, they will see that the mandates must be agreed to by the members of the League. What is the defence for making a private arrangement behind the back of the League and then coming to this House to confirm it? The reason is, of course, that, in the words of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, it is "good business." It is valuable, this little bit of earth, only because it happens to have this commodity so that all the farce about the trusteeship of the natives and the little backward peoples has gone by the board. No one would have thought of the island if it had not happened to possess this commodity. From the business standpoint we are entitled to ask, will this agreement be confirmed? This is a prospectus; this is the great flotation of the company at the nation's expense, and it is a business-like question to ask whether the title is good. Supposing we vote the money and then find they have not a title, what is going to happen? The Leader of the House said: "Our passing this Bill does not in any sense preclude the League of Nations, if they think the arrangement is an unfair one, from refusing to confirm it." My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), than whom there is no more distinguished lawyer in the House, spoke of this as "an arrangement which has no legal or international validity of any sort or kind."
  Is it wise to take these shares in a company which has no legal or international validity of any kind? I suggest what has happened many times before has happened this time and that it is
  1616
  not morally defensible and I intend to divide on it.
  Mr. BILLING: We have been listening the whole of the afternoon to a debate as to the desirability of the League of the Nations and placing our future in the hands of an International Council, and here we are an hour later endeavouring to vote money to the Government in order that they may perform a duty in the interests of the nation, because presumably phosphates are necessary for Australia, New Zealand, and ourselves. Assuming that the League of Nations becomes a real thing, we shall be the first transgressors against the laws laid down by that body, in endeavouring to corner for ourselves what the League of Nations say should be reserved for the whole world.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that he is repeating arguments which have been used before he came in, and there is a Standing Order against repetition.
  Mr. BILLING: Am I to understand that any argument put forward cannot be supported by another hon. Member?
  Mr. SPEAKER: If that were to be so, we might have six hundred Members each repeating the same arguments. The arguments which the hon. Member has been using have been used in his absence.
  Mr. BILLING: I bow to your ruling. If we support the Government in this Motion we may be grievously humiliated by the League of Nations if ever that body become a real thing.
  Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: When we have pointed out the difficulties which prevail in our own country regarding even those individuals who have been broken by the War, and who are in many cases in distressful circumstances, we have been repeatedly told that the Government has no money to establish or start schemes at home. Only to-day I accompanied a deputation of men from Plymouth who waited on the Admiralty with the object of enlisting the sympathy and support of the Admiralty in a scheme for providing work in that town, and they pointed out to the Sea Lord, who received them, that in Plymouth alone there were 4,000 men who had served in the Army or the Navy unable to find work and signing on every

  1617
  day at an employment exchange, and the purpose of their visit was to get the Admiralty to start schemes there of breaking up the ships which will be, or would have been, sold to private contractors to break up.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Plymouth is a long way from Nauru. The question of Plymouth and work there ought to be dealt with on a Navy Vote.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I wanted to point out that we are going to spend in Nauru money which would be much better spent here on our own people.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Let the hon. Member see where that argument leads. It will lead to the fact that we can discuss any matter on this money resolution—the Army, the Navy, the Civil service, or anything else. The hon. Member must confine himself to the discussion of the Resolution.
  12.0 M.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I will confine myself to the question of the spending of national money. We have been told repeatedly by the Government that they had no money to spend in this country, but here they are going to spend £1,500,000 on this Nauru scheme. In their own scheme they tell us that the expenses of the administrators whom they are setting up need not all be met out of the profits of the company, and I believe the money can be better spent on the inhabitants of this country. In regard to the individuals who are going to benefit in this country, if this were a Socialistic scheme I might welcome it, but it is not a Socialistic scheme; it is nepotism. You pass a Bill in this House to give bounties to farmers, and then you bring in a Bill for this island of Nauru, and what is the object of it? It is that Australia, New Zealand, and this country shall have the phosphates at the cost of production, that they shall confine that material to this country and that if they sell it outside this country they shall charge the full market price. That means that if you sell it in this country at a little above cost of production and below the market price elsewhere in the world you are giving a further bounty to the farmers of this country; you are providing them with cheaper manures than they can get elsewhere—a very good thing for the farmers, preferential tariffs, if you
  1618
  like, bolstering up the agricultural industry at the expense of all other industries.
  Mr. SUGDEN: Providing you with food, too.
  Mr. MACLEAN: If you, on the one hand, withdraw the subsidy for the consumer and provide the producer with a subsidy on the other hand, I object to that. If you do away with subsidies at all, do away with them altogether. Another point was raised by an hon. Member regarding the objections raised about the League of Nations not being consulted, that the League of Nations had no authority. He maintained that the mandates had been given by the Allied Powers for the three countries—Australia, New Zealand, and this country—to take over this Island of Nauru, but the hon. Member forgets that, while the Leader of the House said that the League of Nations had nothing to do with the purchase of the island, and could not interfere, the scheme for the taking over of the island does not finish with the purchase of the island from the company. It sets up Administrators and gives them certain powers and judicial functions in the island. Surely that is a matter which comes within the scope of the League of Nations, and you are taking to yourselves powers which, on your own showing, on the statements made to-day, rightly belong to the League of Nations, which every right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench is so anxious to uphold on public platforms, but not in actual practice. Here, if they wish to prove their faith in the League of Nations, is a practical case in which to put that faith to the test. We have no objection to socialising anything of this kind. I, personally, would support the Government were they to come forward with a sane scheme of socialisation, and not a hare-brained scheme of plunder for the men who have already done very well out of the War, but here you are giving an additional bounty to men who are being given a bounty already, and who have done very well out of the War, in order to provide food for the people who have to pay the bounty.
  Major-General SEELY: I have voted against the Bill in its other stages, and, even at this late hour, I hope the House will give me a couple of minutes to explain the reason why I must oppose this

  1619
  last stage, especially in view of to-day's proceedings. It was explained to us today by the Lord President of the Council that the League of Nations could not interfere in various matters, notably Poland, because the League of Nations was constituted to deal in a normal way with normal things. In the case of Nauru we have a normal situation which the League of Nations could surely have dealt with? The whole of the arguments addressed by the right hon. Gentleman to the House fail to the ground in the case of this Bill, and at this eleventh hour I would plead with the House to reconsider its decision. It does seem to me that this is a very wrong thing to do. It gives a handle to the enemies of the League of Nations and all outside this country who believe that the League of Nations is a farce and that we are taking the first opportunity that falls to our hands to take this little island with its valuable deposits, instead of handing it over under Article 22, and the following articles of the League of Nations to do a just deal all round. I dissociate myself from what has been said, or suggested, by some hon. Members on this side of the House that this is not a fair and honourable deal. I am sure it is all that. It is, I am sure, perfectly straightforward and honourable. There is nothing wrong in the deal itself. But it does seem to me to be wholly wrong. I am sure the Leader of the House did not realise how strong is the feeling in this matter when he agreed to it. Let him take this opportunity to set us right with the world, and to show, whenever we get the chance, that we are people who believe in the League of Nations. America has not come in. The French are suspicious. The Germans are excluded for the moment. We believe in it. The heads of our League of Nations Union are the Prime Ministers, past and present. I appeal to the Leader of the House, at this eleventh hour, if he cannot withdraw the Bill, at any rate to give the House an assurance that he means to exert his influence to use the League of Nations so as to prevent any idea that we are exploiting the victory we have obtained. I ask him to assure the House that the Government do mean to use the League of Nations. If he can give that assurance I shall not vote against this; otherwise I shall, or any similar proposal that is
  1620
  at variance with the principles of the League of Nations.
  Mr. MURRAY: Two-thirds of the supporters of the Government on the benches opposite do not believe in the League of Nations. There is, therefore, no use to say very much to them about the matter. What I do object to, however. is that industry should come into the economic system of this country by the back door. I am surprised that hon. Members opposite, who have all these years held up their hands in holy horror at the Government having anything to do with the management of industries here, in this matter, strongly supporting nationalisation—for that is what it is! I am specially surprised that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hampstead (Mr. G. Balfour), who has been one of the strongest opponents of the nationalisation of industry, should be so actively enthusiastic in support of the Government with respect to this distant island. Is this fair to the private trader of this country, because there are private traders, I suppose, in phosphates in this country? The Government are here going to introduce phosphates and sell at the cost price, and so cut out the private trader! The hon. Gentleman has been fighting the Government for interfering with the electrical industry. I am sure if it was midday instead of midnight, and the hon. Gentleman's brain was clearer, he would be opposing this action on the part of the Government. I hope hon Gentlemen opposite, who have been threatening to support the Government, will now reconsider their intention, and ask whether this proposal is in accord with their views on nationalisation. They should not do mere lip service in this case as they did in regard to the League of Nations. I am surprised that my hon. and gallant Friend has such a great fondness for islands which are so distant I have been trying to get the Postmaster-General interested in islands much nearer home, and I could not get a penny out of him, and he refused me even a pillar-box in a particular island which is two miles from a place to post a letter.
  Mr. G. BALFOUR: I confess that I am at a loss to know why the last speaker should have concentrated his attention upon me. May I say that this is certainly not a matter of nationalisation, and if it were I should oppose it tooth and nail.

  1621
  The acquisition of this island is entirely in the interests of the working classes, in order that farmers may be supplied with fertilisers to enable them to produce a more abundant supply of food. Some hon. Members have argued that this proposal has something to do with the League of Nations, but surely they are aware that it is merely a commercial transaction and an outright purchase of everything in

  GAS REGULATION [EXPENSES].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law with respect to the supply of Gas, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, for two years after the passing of such Act, by way of advance to the extent that may be necessary, of the expenditure of the Board of Trade in the execution of their powers and duties under such Act, such instalments in each case to be repaid in the next three succeeding years."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May we be informed what is the sum involved?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. Bridgeman): I explained the whole thing last
  1622
  the island. Having made that purchase, why should we turn it over to the League of Nations, when it is a matter far removed from anything connected with the operations of that body?
  Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 60; Noes, 20.

  Division No. 143.]

  AYES.

  [12.15 a.m.

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Purchase, H. G.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Rankin, Captain James S.

  Atkey, A. R.

  Green, Albert (Derby)

  Raw, Lieut.-Colonel N.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

  Remer, J. R.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Hinds, John

  Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Billing, Noel Pemberton-

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Breese, Major Charles E.

  Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.)

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. G. F.

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Chadwick, Sir Robert

  Lort-Williams, J.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Loseby, Captain C. E.

  Sugden, W. H.

  Cope, Major Wm.

  Macmaster, Donald

  White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

  Whitla, Sir William

  Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

  Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

  Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Wilson, Colonel Leslie O.(Reading)

  Farquharson, Major A. C.

  Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

  Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

  Foreman, Henry

  Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Forrest, Walter

  Pulley, Charles Thornton

  Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. Parker.

  NOES.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Swan, J. E.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Wood, Major M. M. Aberdeen, C.)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Murray, John (Leeds, West)

  Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

  Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Dr. Murray.

  Lawson, John J.

  Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

  night to the satisfaction of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Wedgwood Benn).
  Captain W. BENN: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. I was not here last night.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Or his Leader. The total amount, which cannot be exceeded, is £20,000, but that is only a Treasury advance, and it has to be repaid with interest in the course of three years.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison)The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison): I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendment be considered forthwith."
  Captain W. BENN: Can Lords Amendment be taken after 11 o'clock?
  Mr. SPEAKER: This is only a drafting amendment. It can be taken at any time.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendment considered accordingly.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Interpretation of s. 5 (4) of 8 Geo. 5, c. 64.)
    For the removal of doubts, it is hereby declared that—

    (a) a person who, by virtue of Sub-section (4) of section five of the Representation of the People Act, 1918, has at any time become entitled, as a male naval or military voter serving or having served in or in connection with the war, to be registered as a Parliamentary elector before attaining full age, continues to be so entitled, if otherwise qualified, notwithstanding that the service which brings him within the provisions of that section has ceased; and

    (b) the expression "service" in the said Sub-section (4) means service in or in connection with the War.

    Lords Amendment: In paragraph (a) leave out the word "so" ["continues to
    1624
    be so entitled"] and after the word "qualified" insert the words "to be registered as a Parliamentary elector before attaining full age."
    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
    This is a purely drafting Amendment: This is the Bill that continues on the register soldiers and sailors who have been demobilised, and who are still under 21 years of age.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
    It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Twenty-five minutes after Twelve o'clock.

  ALCOHOLIC REFRESHMENT, PLYMOUTH DOCKYARD.
  ALCOHOLIC REFRESHMENT, PLYMOUTH DOCKYARD.
  HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT BILL.
  HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT BILL.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (MEDICAL RE-EXAMINATIONS).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (MEDICAL RE-EXAMINATIONS).
  SCHOOLMASTERS, ROYAL NAVY (RETIRED PAY).
  SCHOOLMASTERS, ROYAL NAVY (RETIRED PAY).
  WAR PENSIONS BILL (DEPENDANTS).
  WAR PENSIONS BILL (DEPENDANTS).
  ALTERNATIVE PENSIONS (NURSES).
  ALTERNATIVE PENSIONS (NURSES).
  SPECIAL SECTIONS MEN (WAR BONUS AND GRATUITY).
  SPECIAL SECTIONS MEN (WAR BONUS AND GRATUITY).
ROYAL NAVY.
  RECRUITING SERVICE (REDUCTIONS).
  RECRUITING SERVICE (REDUCTIONS).
  CHATHAM DOCKYARD (DISCHARGES).
  CHATHAM DOCKYARD (DISCHARGES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  INDUSTRIAL COURT AWARD (DEVONPORT ORDNANCE DEPOT).
  INDUSTRIAL COURT AWARD (DEVONPORT ORDNANCE DEPOT).
  HOME SERVICE (MEDAL).
  HOME SERVICE (MEDAL).
  MESOPOTAMIA (OUTBREAK, MOSUL).
  MESOPOTAMIA (OUTBREAK, MOSUL).
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  TRANSFERRED FLYING OFFICERS (PAY).
  TRANSFERRED FLYING OFFICERS (PAY).
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  CIVIL SERVICE (EMPLOYMENT).
  CIVIL SERVICE (EMPLOYMENT).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (DISCHARGES).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (DISCHARGES).
GOVERNMENT OFFICES (STAFFS AND ACCOMMODATION).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.
  BRADFORD FOOD OFFICES.
  BRADFORD FOOD OFFICES.
SURPLUS GOVERNMENT STORES (DISPOSAL).
  FREMINGS HALL FARM, INGATESTONE, ESSEX.
  FREMINGS HALL FARM, INGATESTONE, ESSEX.
  FORT MATILDA, GREENOCK.
  FORT MATILDA, GREENOCK.
RUSSIA.
  POLISH TROOPS (SOVIET GOVERNMENT PROTEST).
  POLISH TROOPS (SOVIET GOVERNMENT PROTEST).
  TRADE NEGOTIATIONS (TRANSPORT).
  TRADE NEGOTIATIONS (TRANSPORT).
  MARITIME LAW ("PORTO ALEXANDRE" DECISION).
  MARITIME LAW ("PORTO ALEXANDRE" DECISION).
FINANCE BILL.
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  STAMPING FACILITIES, LIVERPOOL.
  STAMPING FACILITIES, LIVERPOOL.
  CHARITY LANDS (SALES).
  CHARITY LANDS (SALES).
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  POTATOES (REGISTERED IMPORTS).
  POTATOES (REGISTERED IMPORTS).
  BEEF PRICES.
  BEEF PRICES.
  NEW ZEALAND CHEESE AND BUTTER.
  NEW ZEALAND CHEESE AND BUTTER.
  DANISH BACON.
  DANISH BACON.
  MILK AND DAIRIES BILL.
  MILK AND DAIRIES BILL.
IRELAND.
  OUTRAGE, ENNIS (COLONEL MURRAY WHITE).
  OUTRAGE, ENNIS (COLONEL MURRAY WHITE).
  THEFT OF POLICE CLOTHING, CASTLETOWN BERE.
  THEFT OF POLICE CLOTHING, CASTLETOWN BERE.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (APPEALS).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (APPEALS).
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (PENSIONS).
  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (PENSIONS).
  MALICIOUS DESTRUCTION, MIDLETON.
  MALICIOUS DESTRUCTION, MIDLETON.
  LIMERICK OUTRAGE.
  LIMERICK OUTRAGE.
  PRISONS SERVICE (APPOINTMENTS).
  PRISONS SERVICE (APPOINTMENTS).
  MARYBOROUGH PRISON OFFICERS (ALLOWANCE).
  MARYBOROUGH PRISON OFFICERS (ALLOWANCE).
SCOTLAND.
  POLICE DISSATISFACTION (DESBOROUGH COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATION).
  POLICE DISSATISFACTION (DESBOROUGH COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATION).
  SMALLPOX, GLASGOW.
  SMALLPOX, GLASGOW.
HOUSING.
  RENT RESTRICTIONS BILL (BUSINESS PREMISES).
  RENT RESTRICTIONS BILL (BUSINESS PREMISES).
  BLIND WELFARE (COMMITTEE).
  BLIND WELFARE (COMMITTEE).
EDUCATION.
  SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS' SALARIES.
  SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS' SALARIES.
  UNIVERSITIES (STATE GRANTS).
  UNIVERSITIES (STATE GRANTS).
POST OFFICE.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, HULL.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, HULL.
  PROMOTION, TAUNTON.
  PROMOTION, TAUNTON.
  TELEGRAMS (LONDON DELIVERY).
  TELEGRAMS (LONDON DELIVERY).
  PROFITEERING ACT (SPORTING CARTRIDGES).
  PROFITEERING ACT (SPORTING CARTRIDGES).
  INDUSTRIAL TRAINING, WOMEN (MISS MORGAN).
  INDUSTRIAL TRAINING, WOMEN (MISS MORGAN).
  EAST AFRICAN PROTECTORATE (FLOGGINGS).
  EAST AFRICAN PROTECTORATE (FLOGGINGS).
  STRAITS SETTLEMENTS (PENAL CODE).
  STRAITS SETTLEMENTS (PENAL CODE).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (MEDICAL FEES).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (MEDICAL FEES).
  INDEMNITY BILL (WAR LOSSES CLAIMS).
  INDEMNITY BILL (WAR LOSSES CLAIMS).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

DISORDERS IN THE PUNJAB: GENERAL DYER'S POSITION.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, your Lordships may, perhaps, remember that a few days ago my noble friend Lord Midleton asked the Leader of the House whether he would be willing to have a sitting of your Lordships' House on Monday next in order to discuss the Hunter Report. As I understand, it was not intended by my noble friend who sits behind me to go into all the merits of the case with which that Report deals; but it was designed to question His Majesty's Government in reference to such matters as the procedure of the Committee and the action of the India Office, about which certain explanations are required.
Of course, it would have been impossible, had that discussion taken place next Monday, to have excluded reference to the merits of the case; and therefore, with my noble friends, I have felt it right to consider whether we should not, to some extent perhaps, prejudice the investigation which we understand is to take place, if there were a discussion in your Lordships' House then. Upon that I believe my noble friend the Leader of the House has suggested that, inasmuch as the case must be considered sub judice, it would be wiser to avoid a discussion. We are disposed to agree with my noble friend in that conclusion; because I cannot disguise from myself that General Dyer's position might be referred to in such a way as, possibly, to prejudice his case. Therefore, I desire to say, so far as the request was made in our name for the sitting on Monday in order to discuss the Hunter Report, that we no longer press the noble Earl to grant us that facility.
While I do that, however, I should like to put to the Government two questions. A certain statement is in preparation and about to be delivered, as we understand, to the War Office, on behalf of General Dyer. That statement is to be the subject of some sort of investigation. The first question I desire to ask is, What kind of

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investigation is the subject-matter of that document to receive at the hands of the War Office? The second question is, How soon do the Government think that they will be in a position to lay the results of that investigation before Parliament so that any discussion may take place which either House of Parliament may desire? I put the first question because, without going into the merits of the matter at all, it is right to remind your Lordships and the Government that it is of the essence of the case of General Dyer that his side of the matter has never been properly heard.
Therefore, though, of course, I pronounce no opinion whatever upon the merits of the controversy, it is of importance to know what the character of the investigation will be. I recognise to the full the grave responsibility of the Government in this matter. On the one hand, they are called upon to see that no impression arises in India that they are indifferent to the welfare of the natives, and, on the other, they have to consider, with equal seriousness, the position of this distinguished officer whose action in circumstances of great emergency, whatever may be the conclusion the Government come to upon it, undoubtedly had a very lasting and important effect upon the restoration of law and order in India. I recognise fully the difficult position of the Government in arriving at a conclusion. It is therefore all the more incumbent upon them to see that the investigation shall be of an adequate nature. That is the first question.
The next question is, What opportunity will there be for the discussion in Parliament of the result of that investigation and how soon will that opportunity arrive? Your Lordships are aware that there has been an impression abroad that Parliament, in matters concerning India, has not been treated with such frankness as might be desired. I have no doubt that the Government, when they come to explain, will be able to eliminate that impression; but it exists, and that fact makes it all the more necessary that there shall be no greater delay than is absolutely necessary in securing a discussion in both Houses of Parliament, and that the discussion shall be adequate. I venture, therefore, in withdrawing the suggestion that there should be an immediate debate in your Lordships' House, to put these two questions to His Majesty's Government.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON): My Lords, my noble friend has, I think, advanced a little beyond the ordinary limits of a question put by private notice with regard to the business of your Lordships' House, and I shall endeavour in my reply to conform to the more ordinary practice. I was glad to hear from my noble friend that both he and the Earl of Midleton had accepted the force of the contentions which I ventured to place before your Lordships when the matter was first brought before us a week or more ago, and that, accordingly, the noble Earl is disposed to withdraw his request that your Lordships should meet on Monday to consider this matter.
The position is as follows. General Dyer has submitted, or is in the course of submitting, a statement of his case to the Army Council. That statement has not yet been received by them. It is a little difficult for me to answer the first question put by the noble Marquess as to the precise nature of the investigation which the Army Council will be called upon to undertake, because it must depend largely on the nature of the statement submitted to them. I imagine that General Dyer will make a full statement of his case, arguing, I understand, that he has not yet had an opportunity of putting it forward in a proper way. That case will be considered by the Army Council as soon as it reaches them. I believe that will be during next week. I am told that their decision is likely to be arrived at in the course of next week, though probably not before the latter part of the week.
Then comes the question of your Lordships' action. You, not unnaturally, desire an early opportunity of expressing your views, and I am quite disposed, as I said the other day, to make arrangements to meet that wish. Inasmuch as it is impossible for me, or any one, to name a day in the circumstances I have described, I think the best thing—if I may venture to make the suggestion—would be for the noble Earl to keep his Notice on the Paper in the list of Questions for which no date has been named and, if he will allow me to do so, I will communicate with him as soon as matters have reached the stage of which I have been speaking, with a view of arranging for the earliest possible date that the procedure of your Lordships' House allows.
THE EARL OF MIDLETON: My Lords, after what has fallen from the noble Earl the Leader of the House, I shall be very glad to accept his suggestion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I should like to ask if the noble Earl desires to make any further statement with regard to the business of the House?
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, I am quite prepared to do so. As we are not going to take the debate on the Hunter Committee's Report on Monday next there does not appear to be any sufficient reason why the House should meet that afternoon. On Tuesday, June 22, the Third Reading of the Matrimonial Causes Bill is to be taken; on Wednesday, June 23, there is the question of the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland and an important question raised by Lord Islington about Mesopotamia. On Thursday, June 24, besides smaller bills, there is also a Question with regard to Palestine. Lord Balfour of Burleigh has a Question on the Paper for Wednesday about the course of business which will give me an opportunity of making a statement on that subject.
In addition to the Bills and Motions that are already on the Order Paper for next week, I should point out that it is expected that the Rent Restrictions Bill will be passed by the House of Commons on Monday next, in which case the Bill will be read a first time in your Lordships' House on Tuesday, June 22, and the Second Reading put down for Thursday, June 24. It is important, for reasons which nobody knows better than the noble Marquess and which I could state to the House if necessary, that this Bill should become law by June 30. Certain Orders cease to have effect after that date, and, accordingly, I suggest that the Committee stage should be taken on Monday, June 28, and Report and Third Reading on Tuesday, June 29. Those are the arrangements which I submit for your Lordships' consideration.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his courtesy. I hope he will not underrate the importance of the Question which is going to be put by Lord Balfour of Burleigh on Wednesday next. It is the First
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Order and will raise an important matter in which your Lordships are deeply concerned—namely, the late arrival of Bills from another place and the hurry with which our business has to be transacted. I say that because I am a little afraid that the discussion may take so long that Lord Islington's Motion might be rather crowded out, and I think it right I should tell the noble Earl what I know on the subject.
The noble Earl has referred to the Rent Restrictions Bill. I am in the fortunate position of agreeing in the main with the Government on this Bill, and personally I hope it may be passed into law without any undue delay; not perhaps without amendment but in its main outline. I should not think it right, however, so far as my opinion is of value, to promise that it could be got through with the despatch which the noble Earl suggests. I speak entirely from the point of view of a friend of the Bill, but I recognise that it is of a very intricate character and there may be many subjects which your Lordships would wish to discuss. I hope the noble Earl will not consider that we are guilty of any breach of faith if we find it impossible to get through with the Bill so quickly as he has foreshadowed. There may be a little inconvenience, but inconveniences have to he faced when business is brought to your Lordships' House so very late. However, as that is a matter we shall discuss at length on Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Motion, I will say no more about it now. I thought it only right I should give this warning to the noble Earl.

MID-GLAMORGAN WATER BILL.
SUTTON COLDFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
UPPER MERSEY NAVIGATION BILL.
WREXHAM DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
NORWICH CORPORATION BILL.
CENTRAL LONDON AND METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY COMPANIES (WORKS) BILL.
REDCAR URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL GAS BILL.
Read 2a.

HARBOURS, DOCKS AND PIERS (TEMPORARY INCREASE OF CHARGES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
MOTHERWELL AND WISHAW BURGHS (AMALGAMATION AND EXTENSION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
IRVINE HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
DUMBARTON BURGH GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LINCOLN EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Committee made.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HERTFORD EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Committee made.

IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this is a Bill for creating a Board of Trustees for the Imperial War Museum. If you will be good enough to turn to the memorandum on the face of the Bill you will see that its chief object is to create a permanent body in whom the many valuable objects which have been collected during the last three years for the imperial War Museum may be legally vested. At present the Museum is being managed by a body known as the Imperial War Museum Committee, but, this body has no legal status. The Bill, following the lines of existing enactments relating to other national collections, provides for the establishment and constitution of a Board of Trustees, who are given full powers of management in connection with the Museum, and for the vesting in the Board of objects given to, acquired for, or transferred to the Museum. The Trustees are empowered to appoint a staff, and the Bill provides that the present Director-General and the present Curator of the Museum shall continue to hold their respective offices.
Your Lordships, or those of your Lordships who take any interest in this subject, may be aware that the Imperial War
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Museum was first started early in the year 1917 by decision of the War Cabinet, who then appointed a Director-General, a secretary and a Committee. A Report has been presented to Parliament, called the Report of the Imperial War Museum, 1918 and 1919. Circulated last year, it gives an interesting account of the development of the War Museum up to that date. Vast collections have been brought together, and are being constantly added to, almost from day to day. Your Lordships probably are acquainted with the fact that they are temporarily lodged in the Crystal Palace, where His Majesty was recently pleased to open the exhibition and they will be accessible there to the public for a period of four years from the present date, that being the length of the lease which the trustees of the Crystal Palace have granted to His Majesty's Government.
Although this fact is not strictly germane to the subject matter of the Bill, I think that many of your Lordships will not be willing to forget that the actual existence at the present time of the Crystal Palace, with its large gardens and surrounding grounds, forming the most important lung for the suburbs of South London, is mainly, if not entirely, due to the public-spirited generosity of Lord Plymouth, who shortly before the war, at a moment when the affairs of the Palace had got into great confusion—I believe the Company which then owned the Crystal Palace was very near bankruptcy—saved it by advancing a very large sum of money indeed. As the Palace at all events temporarily appears to be so suitable a spot for the existence of the present collections of the Imperial War Museum, it is perhaps permissible to regret that no allusion appears to have been made at the opening ceremony the other day to the name of the man who saved the building, under circumstances which I have described, from the fate which, as we learn from the public prints, has overtaken its prototype at Chatsworth.
To return to the Bill, you will observe that no attempt is made in it to decide in any way the future scope of the Imperial War Museum. As regards that branch, not at all an unimportant branch, of the subject, I should like to quote to your Lordships a few sentences from a speech made by Sir Martin Conway in another place when this Bill was under discussion there. Sir Martin Conway said—
"You can make the Museum what you please. You can make it a mere storehouse

675
of souvenirs and trophies and guns, but those are the matters of smallest importance in the Museum. It is in the records, the maps actually used by the Generals in the field, the enormous collection of photographs, all the air photographs that were taken, the record of all the work of women throughout the length and breadth of the country during the war in manufacture and substitution, the library, the map room—it is in all those smaller and less striking objects that the main value and importance of the Museum to the historian will consist. If it is to be a real place of research, a real place where the scientific history of the development of the marine engine during war-time, the development of aircraft, the development of the air engine, and all the rest of the scientific side of human activity during those five years of war, is to be recorded and illustrated, it may be necessary to have attached to it a staff of, say, half-a-dozen experts, who will not be cheap. On the other hand, if you like to make it nothing but a kind of raree show, a few police will be enough to keep it in order and look after the exhibits. The ultimate cost of the Museum will depend upon the scheme that is adopted, and that scheme will have to be accepted by the House of Commons. The cost will be greater or less in proportion to the ultimate utility of the collection at the Museum, and no scheme can be made, no plan can be elaborated, until you have the Board of Trustees which this Bill proposes to create. If is for that reason that I think the discussion of the ultimate cost of the Museum is premature."
Sir Martin Conway concluded by asking hon. Members to await developments, and to give attention to that question when the actual plan can be laid before them.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CENSUS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order). An Amendment (privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

IMPERIAL AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS.
LORD CHARNWOOD LORD CHARNWOOD had the following Notice on the Paper—
To call attention to the statement made by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on the 17th May, 1917, in regard to "the whole question of perfecting the mechanism for 'continuous consultation' about Imperial and Foreign Affairs between the 'autonomous nations of an Imperial Commonwealth'" (together with India), and to the Resolution passed by the Imperial War Cabinet on the 30th July, 1918, in regard to the same matter; and to ask
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His Majesty's Government whether they can assure the House that the object in question will continue to engage their full and earnest consideration, and be pursued by every active step upon their part which may from time to time seem appropriate.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I need hardly say that I did not put down this Question with the slightest anxiety as to the interest which the Government take in this matter, nor from any undue curiosity about the details of what very likely may be somewhat delicate negotiations, but no doubt it is of importance from time to time to call the attention of public opinion, both in this country and overseas, to the matter of Imperial relations.
Before I put my Question perhaps your Lordships will bear with me if I make one or two remarks of a very general character. Our whole attitude in regard to the British Empire has been—I will not say changed, but greatly developed by the striking occurrences of the war, above all things in this respect. It may be realised here and overseas, as it never was before, as an object of supreme importance that the different countries of the Empire should between them steadily pursue, so far as possible, a common policy in regard to foreign affairs. No one will question the importance of that. But in the working out of such a foreign policy there are all sorts of differences in detail which bulk large in relatively quiet times like these, and which must not be allowed, as possibly some people may be inclined to let them, to overshadow the supreme importance of the object that we pursue. In this connection I think there is a real danger. There is a danger that the people of this country may seem, even if they really are not, indifferent to the problems of the Empire, or may not readily take the leading part in the affairs of that Empire which from time to time becomes the duty of the oldest, and for the time being the greatest, country in the Empire.
There is also a danger on the other side that we may seem to some section or other of opinion in the Dominions to be guided by the desire of bringing them into a new kind of subjection, or what might amount to a new kind of subjection, either to ourselves or to the Empire at large. That, I am quite sure, is not the aim of any British citizen who has seriously considered this

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matter. But we ought to make it plain, I think, that we encourage this principle—almost paradoxical as it sounds—that a matter of supreme importance in relation to the unity and strength of the Empire as a whole is that each of the younger nations within that Empire should develop its own independence, and vigorous and alert sense of nationhood. In that lurks no thought of danger to the Empire. If the whole of Canada, for example, became alive to the fact that Canada is a young nation, with an immense future before it, standing in the same sort of position in the world now which was occupied by the United States a hundred years ago, from that sense of Canadian patriotism would inevitable result, not what might be called a separatist tendency, but a Canadian public opinion which would become alive to the affairs of the world, to the position in which Canada stands, and to the common interests which, once realised, will inevitably keep the Empire together.
The consequence that follows from that is that in all our movements and strivings and suggestions towards the unification of the Empire we ought to be extremely reluctant to seem to be pressing anything upon the Dominions which might be embarrassing to the people of those Dominions themselves or to the Governments of the Dominions in dealing even with any minority of its people. That leads to a consequence which I think ought now to be frankly recognised. I speak with the greatest reluctance in any apparent disparagement of the ideals or of the real services rendered by the zealous advocates of Imperial Federation. But I am sure that we must put out of our minds for a long while to come any idea of the present and immediate practicability of any ambitious formal scheme of federation as, for instance, by the creation of a real Parliament of the Empire. It is perfectly certain that some at any rate—and I should think all—of the Dominions will have nothing to do with any such proposal—and that for the good reason that, where Imperial affairs arise which closely interest them to-day, they stand in a very strong position, from the moral influence which they inevitably exercise on the Government of the United Kingdom, and they might stand in a very much weaker position if their constitutional way of making themselves felt in Imperial affairs was through the voice of a minority in some new Imperial Parliament, representing this country and all the Dominions.
If one thinks that out it is clear that this is a sound consideration, and, at any rate, it is one that has immense weight with large sections of opinion in the Dominions overseas. So we are brought back practically to this—that the continued and growing unity of the Empire depends upon our being able to revive, and make permanent in some form or other, that kind of close mutual consultation and co-operation between the different Governments of the Empires which appears to have been so signally successful during the war and during the peace negotiations. I am aware of the difficulties in relatively quiet times of reviving that sort of organisation. There may at one time seem a difficulty in the Prime Minister of a Dominion coming over here, or, on the other hand, there may be an objection to his being represented by some other member of his own Cabinet. Still greater objections may be felt to his being represented by a High Commissioner—somebody not a member of the Government but discharging functions analogous to ambassadorial functions.
There is, I know, that sort of questions of detail to be considered by the Governments concerned. I am not going to enter into them at all. I am perfectly certain that they are difficulties of the order of which a solution must be found, and will be found, in view of the importance of the object; and I would limit the main part—the only practically important part —of the inquiry that I am going to make of my noble friend Lord Milner simply to this—Will he tell us, with as much or as little detail as may seem good to him, whether communications are passing, or have passed, with a view to the effective revival and permanence in the future, in some form, of the Imperial War Cabinet which existed during the later stages of the war?
There are one or two minor points that I might for a moment glance at. I take it that the Secretariat which was brought into being for the service of that Imperial War Cabinet is still actually in being, standing in some sort of relation to the Prime Minister. That is a minor point, but one that may be of some practical importance. Then I should like to ask this. In discussions of these questions in those periodicals which pay attention to them, I have noticed a tendency to lay a stress on a class of difficulty which I believe

679
to be imaginary, of which I will take a single instance. It is suggested that there is some difficulty about that representation which we should all desire of India in any Imperial Cabinet that is reconstituted, on the ground that India is subordinate to the Government of this country, and that, therefore, the representation of India gives this member of the Empire a double voting strength. That is the sort of point that one occasionally sees raised in these discussions. I take it that, not only that small point, but a host of other difficulties of a like order present themselves to people's minds from the wholly false analogy, in regard to this Imperial Conference or Cabinet which we are contemplating, of a Legislative Assembly or an Executive Committee, which is to take constantly large numbers of immediate, detailed decisions, and in which, therefore, a majority must prevail and be continually prevailing.
As I humbly conceive the work of these more august bodies, a question of vote or of settling things by the power of a majority is a thing that very seldom arises at all, and we should do well to keep before our minds in these matters the analogy of conference between a small number of individual neighbours who, from time to time, meet together because they are men on the whole of like mind, who have certain broad, important interests in common, and who are actuated by a strong desire to come to an agreement on those important interests wherever they can, and who, therefore, can take counsel and, when necessary, action together in a comparatively elastic, informal and, as one may say, free-and-easy way. I should like to know how far in my noble friend's opinion that is really a true sort of pattern and type that we ought to have in mind in contemplating the body through which the action of this Empire as one family, one real fellowship, of independent nations is going to take place.
I desire to congratulate His Majesty's Government on the bold but, as it seems to me, necessary and important step which has been taken in inviting the Canadian Government to send their own representative to Washington, who will there act in concert with, and occasionally, I understand, as the actual representative of, the British Ambassador in Washington. To my mind it is a very significant development, on which I should respectfully like to congratulate His Majesty's Government.
Lastly, the existence of the League of Nations—a body on the vitality of which it appears to me at the moment the fashion to pour a certain amount of doubt—which is, in my opinion, wholly unfounded—has an important relation to this question of Imperial organisation. Obviously it might conceivably create certain difficulties in the working of imperial affairs. For example, under the League of Nations' Covenant any one of the Dominion Governments, without consulting the rest or consulting His Majesty's Government in London, might go directly to the League of Nations. It is a thing which is unlikely to happen, but, obviously, on the surface it is a way in which the working together of the League of Nations and the British Empire as a single organisation may present certain difficulties. I do not believe for one moment that the existence of that League is going to prove in practice a cause of any real friction whatever in the internal councils of the British Empire. On the other hand, should like, in conclusion, to express my emphatic conviction that the vitality and efficacy in the future of that League of Nations, to which so many of us look with so much expectation and hope, depends, above all, upon the maintenance for all time of the real, effective unity of that group of nations within it called the British Empire, which has already during the war carried to such a high point the habit and practice of co-operation for common ends. My Lords, I beg leave to put the Question which stands on the Paper in my name.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT MILNER): My Lords, I hope that the degree of interest felt by members of your Lordships' House with regard to the importance of the Question on the Paper may not he measured by the numbers present at this moment. I would rather hope that the paucity of the attendance is due to the fact that the majority of your Lordships agree with the mover in thinking—and I thank him for the expression of the thought—that His Majesty's Government is not indifferent to the importance of the Question he raises, and that it can be relied upon to do all that is possible for the time being to promote the objects which he has in view. I think I may fairly say that is the case.
In an early part of his speech the noble Lord seemed to harbour the fear that it might still be possible for the people of the

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Dominions to feel a certain nervousness test, in any proposals made in this country to bring about more harmonious co-operation between the different Governments of the Empire, there might be some idea of bringing the Dominions into a new form of subjection. I really think that the time is now long past when any impression of that kind can reasonably be entertained by even the most nervous of Dominion statesmen or Dominion citizens. It is now common ground I take it—I have said it so often that I am almost ashamed to repeat it—that we gladly accept the position, and look upon it as a step in the progress of the Empire and of humanity, that we are all under the King and under the Crown, and there is no kind of authority which, in practice, whatever may be the theory of the Constitution, the Parliament and people of the United Kingdom claim any longer to exercise over the Parliaments and peoples of the self-governing Dominions. We frankly accept the position that we are partner-nations of equal status, though obviously the oldest, still by far the wealthiest, of all these States and the one with the most world-wide possessions, relations and interests has, by common consent—it is merely by consent—a certain position of leadership as head of the family. That is the ground on which we frankly take our stand.
That being admitted, some very important consequences follow. I entirely agree with the noble Lord—I suppose we all do—that we regard it as a matter of supreme importance for the Empire and for the world that the self-governing Dominions of the Crown and the United Kingdom should continue to pursue a common policy, I will not say on every matter, or in everything outside their own borders, but on what one might call all great questions of foreign affairs, all great international questions. It is of supreme importance that they should pursue a common policy, and that, as Mr. Watt said the other day, in the councils of the world the Empire should speak with a single voice. If that is to be accomplished under present constitutional conditions, it can only be because the self-governing nations are agreed upon a particular policy. There is no power, as I think, in the Constitution as it exists to impose the will of the majority upon one dissentient or recalcitrant member. If they are not agreed common action is not possible.
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Fortunately, in the one great test in the experience of recent. years—I mean the test of our policy with regard to the war—we were all continuously agreed about the policy as a whole and every main chapter of it. But, of course, it would be too sanguine to presume, because that fortunate result occurred in one particular important instance, that we could always count upon equally good fortune. We cannot always count upon it. We must frankly accept the position, and freely recognise that circumstances may arise in the future in which, even in a great international crisis, the action of the Empire will be paralysed or greatly weakened owing to the fact that there will not be agreement between all its self-governing parts, and that consequently, either nothing will be done or very much less effective action than would have been possible with agreement will be taken by some portion of the Empire. That would be a disaster. But it is a disaster winch, in my opinion, is only likely to occur if we lose during peace time that close touch with one another which we, fortunately, managed to establish during the war.
I do not believe that on any great world question, different views will be taken by the different parts of the British Empire so long as they remain in intimate touch with one another and are able to consult steadily before any crisis arises. What I dread is the possibility of a clash because action has been taken, for instance, by one member of the family—it naturally would be by the United Kingdom—or because some course has been pursued in foreign policy by our own Foreign Office over, perhaps, a number of years—perhaps it is a right course, but one of which the Dominions were not aware—which brings us up to a certain difficulty, a criticial position, when we should not find ourselves supported by other members of the family, simply because they did not know enough of the previous circumstances which had put us in the position when that decision had to be taken. Therefore, what seems a vital importance in this matter is to keep up continuous knowledge, on the part of all the self-governing members of the Empire, of the course which any one of them is pursuing (and in the main that means which the United Kingdom is pursuing) in matters of foreign policy.
What provision actually exists at present for common consultation, for exchange of

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views, and for framing, by deliberation with one another, a common policy of the Empire? I think what exists and what is being done in that direction is the main point of the Question of my noble friend. At the risk of being rather tedious I should like to explain what the present system actually is, because there is a good deal of misunderstanding about it. On the one hand, we have had now for a number of years an institution which was known in the first instance as the Colonial Conference and subsequently as the Imperial Conference—a meeting of representatives from all parts of the Empire and from India, presided over generally by the Secretary of State for the Colonies but sometimes by the Prime Minister, at which broad questions of what you might call permanent Imperial interest were discussed and resolutions arrived at, which were merely in the nature of recommendations to the several Governments.
The Imperial Conference was frankly a Conference which had no authority to impose its decisions upon any one, but at the same time it was a gathering of very great influence. All the leading statesmen of the Empire were present, its deliberations have been very serious and important, and the resolutions of a body of that kind could not but have a considerable effect upon the conduct of affairs in the different countries there represented. As a matter of fact, a good deal of very useful work in pulling the Empire together has been the result of the quinquennial meetings of this body.
Moreover, we must look upon this Conference—the Imperial Conference proper—as a regular and permanent organ of our Empire Constitution, inasmuch as it has a Secretariat which is a branch of the Colonial Office and which exists in order to pursue, in the intervals between the meetings of this Imperial Conference, the various questions which have been discussed at the Conferences, to collect the material for future Conferences, and, so far as possible by addressing the various Governments, to see that the resolutions of past Conferences are carried out. That is a permanent, important, and very valuable instrument, and one which I believe will have growing effect. An institution of that kind, meeting at long intervals, even if it is to some extent kept alive by the existence of the Secretariat I have described, is very far from being able to ensure that the strength of the Empire is continuously brought to bear upon the direction of the affairs of the world
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in the way in which the powers of any unified Government can be so exercised.
I mean to say that the Government of France, for instance, the Government of the United States, the Government of the United Kingdom, through their Foreign Offices and their representatives abroad, can exercise from day to day a continuous influence upon the course of world affairs. They are units continuously active. But the Empire—using that word to include all the self-governing Dominions as well as the United. Kingdom—has no means of exercising such a continuous influence except in so far as the United Kingdom Government may exercise it. No Ambassador anywhere represents the Empire as effectively as he represents the United Kingdom. Therefore, the question arises whether it is not up to us to devise some means of making the influence of the Empire as a whole—as distinct from the United Kingdom; something greater than the United Kingdom—continuously effective in the councils of the world.
Temporarily this has been achieved. A body was in existence which was known during the war as the Imperial War Cabinet, and during the Peace negotiations at Paris as the British Empire Delegation, which did exactly this thing. I mean that it brought the whole force of the Empire to bear from day to day upon the course of world events. This is a thing entirely distinct from the Imperial Conference, totally different in its nature—a powerful executive engine of government. But of course it was necessarily temporary in its constitution. At that time there was in existence the Imperial War Cabinet, a body of five persons. It invited the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Dominions and the Secretary of State for India, as representing India, to take part in its councils, practically to become members of it. That body directed the war and was continuously active. It represented the whole force of the Empire; because not only was what is commonly described as the Imperial Government constantly represented on it by its principal members, but there were the heads of all the self-governing States of the Empire there; and it was as complete an Executive of the Empire as a whole as it is possible to conceive.
But, as I have said, it was by its nature a temporary institution. It was created for war purposes; and for various reasons

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it was bound—I will not say to come to an end, but, at any rate to fall into abeyance at the end of the war, because for one thing, the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Dominions could not continually be here, as they had to go back to their own countries. Then, again, the British Cabinet changed its character and ceased to consist only of five people. It now consists of twenty or thereabouts, and the conditions which permitted of the introduction of the Prime Ministers of the Dominions into the heart and centre of the British Cabinet no longer exist to the same extent. Though it is, of course, nothing like so important in times of peace as it was during the crisis of the war to make sure of being able to concentrate the whole power of the Empire and of having an Empire engine to direct it, yet it is still very important, even in times of peace, that it should be possible, perhaps not continuously but at any rate occasionally, to set up and have an instrument of government not only able to discuss and talk about Imperial affairs but able to take action as representing the whole Empire.
This, I think, is generally recognised, and I cannot conceal from your Lordships that my own experience during the short time I have been at the Colonial Office has absolutely convinced me that something more is necessary than we have got in the Constitution of the Empire, something which does not exist at present, if the splendid harmony which prevailed between all parts of it in the war is not to be frittered away in peace, and if we are not to separate from one another and go different roads even without knowing it.
I am convinced that we shall be able to hold together on all matters of world importance only if we keep touch more closely than it is possible to do merely by means of Imperial Conferences held every four or five years. I am sure that something which brings the people in the different self-governing States of the Empire, who are actually responsible at the moment for the conduct of their affairs, into constant and close touch with one another is essential if the Empire is to play the great role it ought to play in the world.
Something of this kind must be done, and something of this kind is in the minds of statesmen not only here but in all the self-governing countries under the Crown,
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They are alive to the necessity of some more perfect organisation to keep the Empire on the same lines of policy and, if necessary, to ensure its whole strength being thrown into the right scales at the critical moment. I quite agree with the noble Lord that the success of the League of Nations depends, above all, on the British nations (a League already by nature) being able to speak with one voice. I believe, if they do, that they will hardly ever differ on matters of supreme importance with the United States, and the two great Anglo-Saxon Powers could make the League a success and secure the peace of the world.
I have been perhaps diverted from my main point. The point I want to make is this There is a general recognition in the self-governing Dominions of the Empire, as in this country, of the necessity for a more complete and constant touch in order to ensure common influence and common action. That the necessity is felt in the Dominions is proved by the fact that the Imperial Government has been pressed strongly by all of them to hold a meeting as soon as possible in order that the constitutional question may be discussed in all its details with a view of seeing how harmonious co-operation can be secured in the future. It was at one time hoped that this meeting would take place this year. As a matter of fact, we are all now agreed that it must be put off until next year. The Governments of every part of the Empire have their hands so full at this moment with domestic questions, the aftermath of the war, that their leading men cannot be spared to meet at one spot during the present year, and, unless the leading men are there, it is of no use.
This meeting if it is to be a success and put the future constitutional relations of the Empire on a good footing, must be a meeting practically of Prime Ministers—not exclusively of Prime Ministers, but they would have to be there. Therefore, this meeting, which has been described as a Constitutional Conference because it will be a conference to decide on the future constitutional relations of the different parts of the Empire, must not be confused with the periodical Imperial Conference which, as I have said, is already a fixed and permanent feature of our Constitution. It may take the place of the Imperial Conference for a particular year, but it is, in its nature, distinct from it. It is in the nature of a Constituent Assembly which is to try to arrive.

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at the basis upon which our relations with the Dominions are in future to be conducted.
This Constituent Conference is contemplated for next year. It will be a meeting of extraordinary importance, but, in view of it and pending its constitution, I do not know that it would be desirable or wise to put forward any particular schemes—certainly I do not feel disposed myself to put forward any particular scheme—for bringing about that harmonious action of the different part of the Empire which, as I have pointed out, it is the object of the endeavours of all of us to ensure. All I can say about it—and it is the only answer I can give to-day to the Question of the noble Lord—is that, unless I have been wholly unsuccessful in explaining myself to your Lordships, the House will appreciate both the bigness and the difficulty of the question and the fact that every aspect of it is, I believe, constantly present to the minds of statesmen in the self-governing Dominions as well as those of some statesmen in this country too.
I have tried to point out what already
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exists in the way of Imperial organisation; what temporarily existed for a short time in the past and has now disappeared; and what is required to take its place and the object at which we have to aim; but I think it would not be possible, neither would it be prudent, for me (I might defeat my own object) to lay down that this and that sort of body is to be created, or this kind of arrangement is to be made, in order to ensure the object which we all have at heart. I look forward with intense interest and with great hope to the meeting of the Constitutional Conference next year, and I hope it will not separate without having provided the British Empire with some organ of Government, based upon the recognition of the complete independence and equality of its different parts, which will nevertheless enable them to act promptly and effectively when they are all agreed, and to exercise in peace, at least to some extent, the beneficent, harmonious cooperation which was so brilliantly illustrated in the war.
House adjourned at half-past five o'clock.

WEAR NAVIGATION AND SUNDERLAND DOCK (FINANCE).
(Petition for Bill.)
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BIRKENHEAD EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons, that they concur in the Resolution of this House communicated to them on Tuesday the 8th instant, that it is desirable that the Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Birkenhead Extension) Bill [H.L.] be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament, as desired by this House.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported, without amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next (The Earl of Onslow).
TYNESIDE TRAMWAYS AND TRAMROADS COMPANY BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
LIVERPOOL COPPER WHARF COMPANY (DELIVERY WARRANTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment.
LONDONDERRY BRIDGE COMMISSIONERS BILL. [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
BRIDLINGTON CORPORATION BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
MID-GLAMORGAN WATER BILL.
  SUTTON COLDFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
UPPER MERSEY NAVIGATION BILL
  WREXHAM DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Committed for Tuesday next.
CENTRAL LONDON AND METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY COMPANIES (WORKS) BILL.
  REDCAR URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL GAS BILL.
  Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BIRKENHEAD EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Committee to join with a Committee of the House of Commons on the said Bill;

E. Sandwich,

E. Lucan,

L. Kintore (E. Kintore),

L. Clwyd;

agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly:
Ordered, That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.
Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint Four members of that House to be joined with the said Committee pursuant to the resolution of this House of the 8th instant, and to the Message of the House of Commons of this day, signifying their concurrence in the said resolution, and to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room No. 3, on Thursday, the 24th instant, at Twelve o'clock: All Petitions referred to the Joint Committee, with leave to the Petitioners, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills, to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.
[Front Minutes of Judicial Sitting, June 21.]

SHEKLETON'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Petition of Richard Auchmuty Shekleton praying that substituted service of a copy of the Bill, together with notice of the Second Reading thereof, and all other notices or orders in connection therewith may be made upon Messrs. Linklaters and Paines, at their office, 2, Bond Court, Walbrook, London: Presented, and read, and to be taken into consideration on Thursday next.