Sitting of 9 June 1920

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Sheffield Corporation Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Southampton Extension) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill,
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.

SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I have the honour to present a petition on behalf of 704 small shopkeepers resident in Hull. A great many of these men are ex-service men, and I believe the House is sympathetic to their claims. They represent a small class of independent business men, and they protest against certain provisions of the Shops (Early Closing) Bill.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    GENERAL DYER.
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Secretary of State for India whether General Dyer resigned his command in India voluntarily; if not, who asked him to resign; and was any reason given?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): The Commander-in-Chief informed General Dyer that he accepted the conclusions of the Hunter Commission in regard to the occurrences at Amritsar, and directed him to resign his appointment as brigade commander.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Was General Dyer supplied with legal assistance at this inquiry?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I do not think so.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is that accepted by the India Office as a fair trial for this distinguished General?
    Mr. MONTAGU: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must know it is not a question of a trial. The Commander-in-Chief in India has a perfect right to dispense with the services of any officer.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not in accordance with the rules of any military court that General Dyer should have no legal assistance, and that he should not be able to cross-examine witnesses?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I quite agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but the Hunter Commission was not a military court, and cannot be regarded as a substitute for a military court.
    Sir H. CRAIK: Is it not the case, as was stated yesterday, that the Army Council has had the case of General Dyer before it, and has given time to General Dyer to submit a further statement of his case before they come to judgment?
    Mr. MONTAGU: Yes, that was the policy announced yesterday by the Secretary of State for War.
    Sir H. CRAIK: Is it not proper—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We are going to discuss the matter to-morrow.

    HOSPITAL TRANSPORT.
    Major Sir B. FALLEasked the Secretary of State for India if he has inquired as to the delay in bringing home officers and men wounded in recent fighting and for whom leave had been granted and passages applied for in hospital ships; if he can say if the "Vita," which left India on 1st May and brought two such officers, carried any staff officers and

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    other unwounded officers and men; and if any wounded officers and men in the first-mentioned category were left in India to come home in the very hot weather and to travel in great discomfort and risk to life?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I have telegraphed to the Government of India, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend when I receive a reply.

    ARMY UNIFORMS.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for India whether it is proposed to introduce pre-War uniforms for British officers serving in the Indian Army; and, if so, what expense to the officers and to the State will thereby be incurred?
    Mr. MONTAGU: No decision has been come to in this matter, which depends very largely on the details of the nature of the full dress that is to be adopted for the Army generally.

    OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
    Mr. A. HERBERTasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the anxiety and uncertainty in the minds of many Indian Army officers who are contemplating retiring owing to the changed conditions of service in India, but cannot do so until the new pension rates are published, he can now state when these rates will be published?
    Lieut.-Colonel POWNALLasked the Secretary of State for India whether the new scale of pensions for retired officers of the Indian Army has yet been approved?
    Mr. MONTAGU: A communiqué giving particulars of the new scale of pensions for officers of the Indian Army and Indian Medical Service was sent to the Press on 3rd June, and published the following day. I will send the hon. Members a copy.

  RUSSIA.

    MERCHANT SHIPS, ODESSA.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any merchant ships have attempted to sail to or from Odessa during its occupation this year by the Russian Soviet forces; and whether His Majesty's ships in the Black Sea or at
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    Constantinople have stopped or seized any of these ships or prevented them from sailing?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Long): No information on the subject of the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's question is available. No reports of ships being stopped or seized in the Black Sea have been received.

    MINEFIELDS, EASTERN BALTIC.
    Mr. SWANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty in what months were mines or minefields last laid in the Eastern Baltic; whether any orders have been or will be given to sweep the waters leading to Kronstadt so as to open a sea channel for traffic; and whether British mine-sweeping vessels are now in the Baltic which might be without delay used for this purpose?
    Mr. LONG: It is not in the public interest to give the information asked for in the first part of the hon. Member's question. As regards the sweeping of the waters leading to Kronstadt, this will not be a British responsibility. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: If it is finally decided to allow peaceable trade with Russia, shall we give information to the Russians where these minefields are, just as we gave information to the Germans where our mines were in the Bight, in order that the mines may be swept up, and thereby remove a danger to peaceable commerce?
    Mr. LONG: Certainly. When minesweeping operations are taken over by Germans or Russians, any information we can give them will be at their disposal, obviously.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is not in the public interest to give the information?
    Mr. LONG: I should have thought it would have been obvious. It is not usual to give either the time or the reasons for certain military operations. In this case it is most undesirable.
    Captain BENN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say against whom these military operations are being directed?
    Mr. LONG: As a matter of fact, these mines were sunk in order to protect British battleships that were doing their duty. Had they not been protected by mines they would have been liable to be sunk.
    Captain BENN: The right hon. Gentleman means that this is part of the military operations against Russia.
    Mr. LONG: I mean nothing of the kind. I mean, as the hon. and gallant Member knows perfectly well, that we had a squadron in the Baltic, which has been referred to very often in this House, and, being there, it was the duty of the Commander-in-Chief to see that they were protected.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether the question of joint action to remove the submarine mines in the Eastern Baltic and Gulf of Finland has been, or will be, discussed with the representatives of the Russian Soviet Republic now in this country; and whether information will be exchanged regarding the position of Russian, German, and British minefields in those waters?
    Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the last part that the action to be taken must depend on the issue of the negotiations.

    BRITISH POLICY.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Lord Privy Seal when the Government will be able to make a general statement of their Russian policy?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on Monday last.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Can we have some statement about the military operations and commitments in the South of Russia in which we are engaged, with which the Prime Minister did not deal?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: There are no such commitments.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Why are we doing it then?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If we were engaged we should be doing it.

  IRELAND.

    ATTACKS ON COASTGUARDS.
    Earl WINTERTONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if an inquiry will be held into the circumstances surrounding the overpowering of His Majesty's Coastguards by armed desperadoes in the South of Ireland; and what steps, if any, he has taken to protect public property under the charge of the Admiralty in Ireland?
    Mr. LONG: In all cases in which attacks are made on Coastguard stations the circumstances are investigated, and when the facts are in doubt inquiries are always held. Damage has been done to Coastguard buildings in isolated neighbourhoods, and the same difficulties occur in their protection as in the case of police barracks similarly situated. Every possible step is being taken to protect Coastguard stations, but it is not advisable to make public the measures taken. There is a guard of Royal Marines to protect naval establishments at Queenstown.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    NEW CONSTRUCTION.
    Mr. CHARLES WHITEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state the number of ships under construction at the time of the Armistice or for which contracts had been placed upon which operations were discontinued; and the dates on which work was stopped or the contracts cancelled.
    Sir JAMES CRAIG (Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty): The information asked for by my hon. Friend is of too lengthy a nature to be given verbally, and I am, therefore, forwarding to him in writing the details for which he asks.
    Mr. SHORT: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman circulate that in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Sir J. CRAIG: If the hon. Member desires to have it circulated, certainly. My own idea was to economise by not publishing these very long lists.
    The following are the details referred to:
    The numbers of ships building or on order at the time of the Armistice, and which have been cancelled, are as follow, the dates of stoppage of work being as shown in each case:—

    Battle Cruisers

    3

    Oct., 1918.

    Light Cruisers

    3

    Nov., 1918.

    1

    August, 1919.

    Flotilla Leaders

    3

    Nov., 1918.

    2

    March, 1919.

    Torpedo Boat Destroyers

    18

    Nov., 1918.

    15

    March, 1919.

    7

    August, 1919.

    Submarines

    11

    Nov., 1918.

    17

    March, 1919.

    5

    August, 1919.

    Minelayers

    2

    Nov., 1918.

    Twin Screw Minesweepers

    39

    Dec., 1918 to Dec., 1919.

    Paddle Minesweepers

    5

    Dec., 1918.

    Patrol Gunboats

    31

    Nov., 1918.

    *Trawlers

    215

    Dec., 1918.

    *Drifters

    174

    Dec., 1918 to March,1919.

    Boom Defence Vessels

    1

    Nov., 1918.

    Tugs

    43

    Nov., 1918 to Jan., 1920.

    "24" Class

    2

    Dec., 1918.

    * Including 133 Trawlers and 104 Drifters on which work was stopped as regards fitting them as War Trawlers, these vessels being completed as ordinary fishing vessels so as to dispose of them to the best advantage.

    † Including 25 on which work was stopped as regards completing them for the Navy, these vessels being completed for commercial use so as to dispose of them to the best advantage.

    WARSHIPS (MOVEMENTS).
    Commander Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the future movements of His Majesty's ships can, as far as the exigencies of the service permit, be made known to the officers and men concerned.
    Mr. LONG: As far as the exigencies of the service permit, future movements of His Majesty's ships are made known to officers and men. It is not proposed to do more in this direction than is normally done at present.

    BLOCKSHIPS, OSTEND AND ZEEBRUGGE (GIFT TO BELGIAN GOVERNMENT).
    Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the present position with regard to H.M.S. "Vindictive," "Intrepid," and "Iphigenia"; and what are the intentions of the Admiralty with regard to the future of these ships?
    Mr. LONG: The "Thetis," "Intrepid," "Iphigenia," and "Vindictive," which were sunk as blockships at Ostend and Zeebrugge, have been presented to the Belgian Government as a free gift.

    WARSHIPS (SALE).
    Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now make any statement with reference to the sale of H.M.S. "Canada" and other ships to Foreign Powers, giving the names of the ships concerned, the Powers to whom they have been sold, and the price obtained.
    Sir J. CRAIG: H.M.S. "Canada" and certain other vessels have been sold to Chile. No other sales of warships to foreign Powers have been definitely concluded, but a sloop and three motor launches have been disposed of—the sloop "Zinnia" to Belgium without armament, and two motor launches to Portugal and one to Denmark. His Majesty's Government is not at present in a position to divulge the financial terms.
    Viscount CURZON: Can the hon. and gallant Baronet state exactly what ships have been sold, or circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Sir J. CRAIG: I have already given the Noble Lord all the information we have—the "Canada," three other torpedo boats and a tug. Other sales of warships to foreign Powers have not been definitely concluded.
    Viscount CURZON: Are other sales contemplated?
    Sir J. CRAIG: I hope so.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it still the policy of the Board of Admiralty not to sell efficient war vessels abroad except on the understanding that they are to be broken up except in this particular case of the "Canada"?
    Mr. LONG: Breaking up is not part of the contract, but every precaution is adopted in order to see that these vessels are not likely to be used against His Majesty's Government. It is quite obvious that if we have ships for sale and other countries want them, if we do not sell them they will buy them from other countries.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see

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    that if we sell those ships abroad it would be an excuse for building more warships in the future?

    SALVAGE (HIS MAJESTY'S DOCKYARDS).
    Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that the Admiralty have at their disposal one of the most proficient and well-equipped salvage plants in the country, also a well-trained staff with good experience, who have attained most successful results, and that both men and plant are not being used to full advantage, and the Admiralty are now placing salvage work, under Admiralty control, out to private contract, this work could be undertaken by His Majesty's dockyards without distressing other work; and, seeing that the trained and experienced men who have done such valuable service are being discharged from His Majesty's dockyards, if the dockyards were given a fair apportionment of salvage work would both discharges and distress caused by unemployment be greatly relieved?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The Salvage Section under the Admiralty has ceased to exist per se; with a few exceptions, the personnel has been demobilised and have either joined private firms or have returned to their previous employment. The vessels which were fitted out and used by the Section have either been returned to their owners or are, with the few remaining officers and others, under the Naval Salvage Adviser on the coast of Belgium, where they have enough employment in raising the blockships at Ostend and Zeebrugge clearing those harbours to keep them busy for several months. The nature of the work there is difficult, and neither personnel nor material can at present be spared for any other work. Some special fittings for salvage vessels are kept ready for emergency in the dockyards, and certain officers and men have had experience in salvage, but they are not borne specially for this duty, and as they are now fully employed on other Admiralty work it would cause inconvenience and distress if they were withdrawn. Even if the pumps and gear that we have could be utilised at the present time for salvage purposes, and men were sent to attend to them, the effect on discharges would be negligible.

    SCHOOLMASTERS (PAY).
    Sir T. BRAMSDONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in the position to state that schoolmasters, Royal Navy, will have their recent increases of pay ante-dated to 1st February, 1919, as was done in the case of all other officers?
    Sir J. CRAIG: This matter is still under consideration.

    NAVAL MISSION, BAKU.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what were the duties of the British Naval Mission recently captured at Baku; and why they were sent to that port?
    Mr. LONG: The Naval Mission was being sent to Persia to assist the Military at Enzeli on naval matters. The route viâ Batum and Baku appeared at the time to afford the quickest means of getting to Persia.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if this Mission is on its way to commission General Denikin's interned fleet again; and, if so, is that consistent with the policy laid down by the Prime Minister in this House?
    Mr. LONG: I think so. If there be any inconsistency, it is not on the part of the Admiralty. I can assure the hon. Member that there is nothing inconsistent in the policy of the Government in their action in sending out this Naval Mission.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what excuse was given for the capture of these British officers?
    Mr. LONG: By whom?
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: The Bolsheviks. Has M. Krassin given any reason?
    Mr. LONG: I do not know whether they are likely to give any reason for what they did. So far as I know they have not been asked.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Has any explanation been asked of M. Krassin on this question? May I press for an answer?
    Mr. LONG: Not that I know of.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it a fact that these men were at Baku on their way to Enzeli, in order to take over the command of the ships of General Denikin?
    Mr. LONG: They were sent out to give naval advice. I do not think it was their duty to take over. At that time it seemed desirable to save these ships, if possible, and they were sent out to give naval advice.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Prisoners of War.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Is it not a fact that M. Krassin has been told that these prisoners are to be released?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a long way from the question on the Paper.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: I submit that it is in order.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is not relevant to the question on the Paper.

    LOWER DECK WELFARE COMMITTEE.
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, before the next meeting of the Lower Deck Welfare Committee, he will arrange for the representatives of the different branches to be elected by all the depots from whichever depot the men require, and not as hitherto from the depot nominated by the Admiralty, which places the men under serious disadvantages and limitations in the choice of their representative?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The orders for summoning the next Welfare Committee have already been issued, and it is not proposed to make any change at the present time. The men will have an opportunity of putting forward any suggestions bearing on the question at the next meeting, if they so wish. The present system, however, is a very fair one.

    COMMERCIAL VESSELS EMPLOYED.
    Mr. C. BARRIEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many commercial vessels, and their tonnage, are now being employed by the Admiralty, directly or indirectly?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The total number is 10, of 11,310 gross registered tonnage. This does not include vessels in course of reconditioning, nor small craft such as barges and hoppers.
    Mr. C. BARRIEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many commercial oilers are being used directly by the Admiralty at the present moment; and whether the Admiralty are paying for those at commercial rates?
    Sir J. CRAIG: There are no commercial oilers at present being used directly by the Admiralty.

    MECHANICIANS.
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why mechanicians who were drafted to destroyers and small craft in lieu of engine-room artificers during hostilities, vide M.O. 4092/17, are not being relieved as opportunities offer in accordance with A.W.O. 2711/19?
    Sir J. CRAIG: Mechanicians are being relieved as opportunities offer in accordance with the order quoted. The present position is:—21 have been relieved; arrangements have already been made for the relief of 10 others; 11 remain to be relieved when opportunity offers, of whom 8 are on foreign service.

    GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL (MONETARY REWARD).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty if men of the Royal Navy who have been awarded the good conduct medal before 1st May, 1919, and have been killed in action or died of wounds before they have enjoyed the medal for one year are ineligible for any monetary reward; if he will inquire into this matter and see that men who have been killed in action, etc., shall not be subject to Regulations made for times of peace; and if he will place the men so killed before 1st May, 1919, in the same position as those killed, etc., after that date?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, the gratuity payable to holders of the good conduct medal who died before 1st May, 1919, having been dependent, under the Regulations then in force, on complete years of service and rank subsequent to the award of the medal. These conditions were applicable to both peace and war service, the qualification for an award being continuance of "Very Good" character, and as, in common with other concessions arising from the Report of the Navy Pay Committee, the revised

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    Regulations governing payment of good conduct gratuities became operative from 1st May, 1919, I regret that retrospective effect cannot be given to them in the cases of men who were killed prior to that date.
    Sir B. FALLE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of these men is very small? If they are killed in action, could he not lessen the severity of the rule?
    Sir J. CRAIG: I am afraid not. This matter has been settled, and I do not think it is possible to open it again.

    ENGINEER-CAPTAINS (BONUS).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty when those engineer-captains, eight in number, who reached the retirement age between December, 1913, and May, 1914, but continued to serve on to the outbreak of War, and then served through the whole period of the War, will receive the 25 per cent. bonus due to them; and if this bonus was promised to officers who volunteered their service?
    Sir J. CRAIG: I have not been able to identify all the officers referred to by the hon. and gallant Member, but I have no doubt that he is referring to the case of certain engineer-captains, who, with a number of officers of other ranks of the Royal Navy, were retired before the outbreak of War, but continued voluntarily to serve after retirement in billets which they retained during the War period. The regulations for the payment of officers who are voluntarily retained in peace time permit of the payment of a bonus of 15 per cent. of full pay as compensation for not counting service after the date of retirement towards an increase of retired pay. The regulations for officers called out by Royal Proclamation in time of War, permit of a bonus for the same purpose of 25 per cent. The officers in question, not having been called out by Royal Proclamation, fall within the former category, and no promise has been given to such officers that they should receive the higher rate of bonus during the War service.
    Sir B. FALLE: Does the hon. Gentleman repudiate the Admiralty form sent out to commissioned officers that if they volunteered their services they would receive the bonus of 25 per cent.?
    Sir J. CRAIG: I do not think that is quite correct, because the form that was sent out was subsequent to these particular officers having accepted work at the 15 per cent. basis.
    Viscount CURZON: Is not the effect of the hon. Gentleman's answer to differentiate rather severely against certain officers who continued to serve, as against those who were merely called up?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The matter has been very carefully considered and these particular officers were in employment before the War on certain terms. Subsequently the terms were changed.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    DEMOBILISATION (TROOPS IN INDIA).
    Mr. C. PALMERasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that men who joined under the Derby scheme and were promised release last November are still in India because it is said there is no boat accommodation; whether these men are anxious to get back to the occupations they gave up to join the Army; and whether he will do something to expedite their return to their families and to civil life?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON (Parliamentary Secretary, War Office): The latest report from India, dated 1st June, states that there were 27 demobilisable other ranks still to be despatched to the United Kingdom. These will sail about 10th June. In addition, there are 15 demobilisable other ranks in hospital.

    IRISH AND WELSH GUARDS.
    Brigadier - General Sir OWEN THOMASasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the indignation that has been aroused in Wales at the proposal to wipe out the Welsh Guards, and that this proposal has been, rightly or wrongly, interpreted by the Welsh people as discrediting their services; and will he take the necessary steps to prevent this outrage to Welsh national feeling?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to replies given yesterday on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, and I am sure that the Government estimates as highly as my hon. Friend himself the value of the part played by Wales in the War.
    Mr. HUGH EDWARDS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer given yesterday, as far as the Welsh Guards are concerned, was utterly vague and indefinite, and we do not know where we are?
    The following Question which appeared on the Order Paper was postponed:
    Lieutenant-Colonel DALRYMPLE WHITEasked the Secretary of State for War whether any definite decision has been arrived at with regard to the suggested re-organisation of the Irish and Welsh Guards; whether the Report of the proceedings of the conference of commanding officers dealing with this matter was officially communicated to the Press; and, if not so communicated, what steps, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am much obliged to the hon. Member for postponing this question. I shall be very glad to give a detailed general statement on Tuesday next on the subject of the suggested re-organisation of the Guards.

    RE-CLOTHING.
    The following Questions which appeared on the Order Paper were postponed:
    Mr. JOHN GUEST: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the private soldier will be expected to maintain the proposed coloured uniform; and, if so, what will be the average cost to him per annum.
    Sir OWEN THOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what cleaning materials are necessary to maintain the pre-War uniforms in proper condition; what is the cost of these materials; and by whom is the cost to be defrayed.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Churchill): I am much obliged to the hon. Members for postponing these questions, as I would like to give a more extended answer.

    SOLDIERS' FUNERALS (COST).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for War what amount is allowed by his Department to the relatives of a soldier for a funeral; further, is he aware that the cost of funerals in London has considerably increased recently, and that
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    the present grant does not pay the cost; and whether, in view of this, he will consider as to increasing the amount of the grant for soldiers' funerals?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: The amount granted to the relatives of a soldier for a funeral carried out entirely by them is the sum which would actually have been spent if a full military funeral had been arranged in the locality in which the soldier died. If any expense, such as the provision of a coffin or the conveyance of the body to the railway station, has been incurred by the military authorities, this is deducted from the sum due. In view of the fact that the grant is not fixed but varies with the cost of a military contract in each locality, it is not considered that any revision is necessary, as the cost of the military contract is also increased when the local charge for civil funerals is raised.

    HOSPITAL TRANSPORT.
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that two officers suffering from advanced phthisis in Egypt, who had been awaiting transport to the United Kingdom by hospital ship, after being medically boarded, were refused a passage on the ambulance transport "Glengorm Castle," which sailed for home on the 13th May, on the grounds that accommodation was not available for infectious cases, in spite of the fact that a civilian lady suffering from the same disease was allotted a passage; that three other officers all medically boarded for treatment in the United Kingdom were refused passages on the same ship on the grounds that they had not observed some small formality in filling in their papers; whether, with the exception of some sick from Constantinople, the greater part of the accommodation on this hospital ship was taken up by fit personnel and civilians; if he will state when another ship will be available for transport from Egypt to the United Kingdom; and whether he will see that priority is given to these five officers and the other sick left out in Egypt, whose health is being seriously injured by the heat and dust storms, over fit civilians?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: I am making inquiries, and will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

    SOLDIERS' GRAVES, MESOPOTAMIA.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for India what action has been taken for the preservation of British and Indian soldiers' graves in Mesopotamia?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: The Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries is still working in Mesopotamia completing the work of registration and identification. A scheme for the concentration of graves into main cemeteries where they can be properly cared for is under consideration. An architect of the Imperial War Graves Association has just returned from a visit to that country and his proposals for the treatment and design of the cemeteries are actually under discussion.

    WOMEN TRAINING (CRAIBSTONE FARM, ABERDEEN).
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAYasked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the average cost per month of the training scheme for young women at Craibstone Farm, Aberdeen; and how many young women, as a result of the efficient course of training they have received during the progress of the scheme, have now developed into useful members of the agricultural community?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara): The average cost per month of this course for 15 trainees is £101 7s. 6d. The number of women who have completed their training is 15, all of whom have been placed on farms, and there are a further 27 at present in training.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is one of the most economical schemes, from the national point of view, the Government has ever embarked upon; and would it not be better to devote some of the money spent in reclothing the Army on a scheme such as this?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is a very good scheme.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman and Government reconsider the scheme, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman says this is a very good scheme?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is a very good scheme, and I will have the matter further considered; but the hon. Member must understand that I can give no assurance that it will be continued after 30th June.
    Major MACKENZIE WOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the agricultural community in the North-East of Scotland desire its continuance?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Yes; we have had representations in that sense.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    COMMERCIAL TRAINING.
    Mr. ALFRED DAVIESasked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to state the result of his investigations regarding the present period of nine months' training for ex-service men who wish to enter commercial careers?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is considered that a period of nine months is normally sufficient for training men in commercial work, provided that proper care is exercised in selecting the candidates for such a course. Divisional directors have, however, power to give an extension of 25 per cent. on this period where circumstances appear to demand this in individual cases.
    Sir CECIL BECKasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been directed to the continuous delays in the working of the scheme for training ex-service men; whether he is aware that the Saffron Walden Sub-Committee of the Essex Local War Pensions Committee has on its books 16 men who have made application for training, and that some of them have already been waiting 12 months; whether he will particularly note the case of Private A. Cornell, who applied on 18th June, 1919, for training as a boot repairer; and whether he is aware that in spite of all the necessary facilities for training being available in Saffron Walden itself, and employment having been offered to Mr. Cornell on the completion of his training, the necessary sanction cannot be obtained from the Ministry of Labour?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: There is, I am afraid, a long waiting list—24,000 in fact,

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    though it was 27,000 at the beginning of the year. Difficulties of finding suitable premises, equipment, and tools are frequently not easy to overcome, and then there is the discussion with the Local Technical Advisory Committee as to whether trainees should be added to the numbers already included in the respective crafts. But I am glad to say that there has been much greater expedition in most of these matters recently. And so far as I am concerned, my aim is to secure still further expedition. As regards the entrance of new candidates to training in the boot and shoe trade, this has had to be very largely suspended in view of the representations of the Trade Board, who have strongly expressed the view that the trade is becoming over-crowded. In any case, I am afraid men cannot be trained as repairers only. I am having inquiry made into the particular case to which my hon. Friend draws attention.
    Sir C. BECK: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of these men have been waiting for 18 months and over for their training, that the particular person whom I mention has been offered employment if he could obtain training, which is obtainable in Saffron Walden itself without any great expenditure to the State, and that the delay in his training has been due to the delay of the Ministry of Labour in giving him permission to receive the training?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is not accurate to say that the delay is due to the Ministry of Labour. In this particular case the Trade Board has told us that, as far as they can see, the numbers of men in training are already sufficiently large, and therefore we cannot proceed further in that direction.
    Sir C. BECK: Will my right hon. Friend consider the need of a little elasticity? There is no question of over-crowding, because this man is offered a job if he can secure the necessary training. He fought gallantly in the War, and it is only necessary for him to obtain permission from the Ministry of Labour to secure a training in order that he may earn a decent living.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: As I have said, I will have special inquiry made into this case, but the boot and shoe industry have either in training or trained 4,500 men,
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    and in some localities they are already on short time. We have to consider whether we should train men if, in the end, they will find themselves out of employment. But I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for calling attention to the matter, and I will do what I can.
    Sir R. ADKINS: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of training men for boot repairing, which is a different thing from the boot and shoe industry, and which, in rural areas particularly, is not overcrowded?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Certainly; but so far as I can ascertain from inquiry, if a man is trained as a boot repairer he would not be deemed a fully skilled craftsman, to be paid 65s. a week. That is the difficulty, but I will look further into the matter.
    Mr. SHORT: As the fault appears to lie with the Ministry rather than with the Boot and Shoe Operatives' Trade Union, will the right hon. Gentleman notify Lord Haig of that fact?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: This is a matter for the Trade Board, which, as the hon. Member knows, is composed of members of the trade unions, members of the employers and three appointed persons, the chairman, vice-chairman, and another, and it is their decision that there are sufficient men trained, and it is not a question for Lord Haig or the Ministry of Labour. It is a question as to which all of us want to do our best.
    Mr. SHORT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Haig accuses the boot and shoe operatives of putting obstacles in the way?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: There is a starred question on the Paper for Friday next in regard to that, and I propose to give a full answer upon that matter. I will only say that I have had great pleasure in spending the whole morning with Lord Haig, seeing what these men are doing, and it would be impossible to overestimate the keenness and zeal which he has shown with regard to his old comrades.

    TUBERCULAR CASES (SPECIAL DIET).
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDSasked the Minister of Health whether local War pensions committees are authorised to

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    make provision for extra nourishment for ex-service men in sanatoria or at home who are suffering from tuberculosis and in need of special diet, and if he will make provision for similar grants to be made to insured persons who are suffering from the same cause?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Dr. Addison): I understand that this provision is made in the case of ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis who are under treatment at home, and insurance committees are empowered to make similar provision for other insured persons, so far as the funds available for sanatorium benefit, after providing for other calls upon those funds, will allow. The question of providing "extra" nourishment for patients under treatment in sanatoria is one which scarcely arises in practice. These patients receive the dietary provided by the institution, which is specially adapted to the needs of tuberculous patients, and may be varied at the discretion of the medical superintendent to meet the special needs of individual cases.

  HOUSING.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' SCHEMES, LONDON.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Minister of Health, with respect to the land for housing schemes purchased by local authorities within the county of London, where the site and price have been approved by the Ministry of Health, what is the aggregate area and price of that land and what was the aggregate net rateable value attributable to it for local assessment purposes; and if he will give similar particulars with respect to the land purchased by local authorities within the rest of the Metropolitan police district?
    Dr. ADDISON: The aggregate area in the case of land for which the site and price have been approved by my Department within the county of London is 777 acres, and the cost is £438,268, making an average cost per acre of £564. As regards the rest of the Metropolitan police district, the aggregate area is 2,646 acres, and the cost £817,579, making an average price per acre of £309. I have no information available showing the aggregate net rateble value attributable to the land in question for local assessment purposes.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the net aggregate rateable value is a very pertinent question in connection with the price that is going to be paid for this land, and are we to understand that no inquiry is to be made as to the rateable value of the property in question?
    Dr. ADDISON: I have no doubt that in every case all those matters are taken into consideration, but I could not in answering a question give the various assessments of these numerous prices of land.
    Captain W. BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that in approving the figure paid for the land, he did take into account the rateable value of the land?
    Dr. ADDISON: At the time.
    Captain BENN: If the right hon. Gentleman did take that into account, cannot he give it?
    Dr. ADDISON: I have answered the question on the Paper. I will give any information I can. It certainly was a matter that was taken into consideration. I think that the price of £564 per acre for land purchased in London is very creditable.
    Captain BENN: If I put down a further question, will the right hon. Gentleman supply the information?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is now on the Paper.

    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL PLANS.
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDSasked the Minister of Health whether plans for houses prepared by the London County Council have been rejected by his Department; and, if so, will he state the reason?
    Dr. ADDISON: I am not aware that plans for any of the ordinary London County Council schemes have been wholly rejected. If the hon. Member will communicate with me and let me know what case or cases he has in mind, I will gladly see that he is furnished with full particulars.

    BUILDING MATERIALS.
    Major MACKENZIE WOODasked the Minister of Health whether, in view

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    of the fact that great delay has been caused to private builders through the non-fulfilment of promises by the Government to supply them with building materials on the same terms as local authorities, he will take steps to have the period during which the housing subsidy may be earned prolonged beyond the end of the present year?
    Dr. ADDISON: I cannot accept the statement contained in the first part of the hon. Member's question. I will consider the suggestion contained in the second part.

    BUILDING PROGRESS (WEEKLY STATEMENTS).
    Dr. McDONALDasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the high cost of all material and the prevailing outcry against extravagance, he will consider the advisability of issuing monthly statements regarding the progress of house building in place of weekly statements, as is at present the custom?
    Dr. ADDISON: In view of the great general interest in the housing scheme I think it is desirable for the present to continue the issue of a weekly statement.

    SLUM AREAS.
    Mr. MALONEasked the Minister of Health whether the powers given to local authorities under the Housing and Town-Planning Act are sufficient to enable them to eliminate slum areas; and, if so, what steps are being taken to enforce these provisions?
    Dr. ADDISON: I think that the powers under the Housing Acts are generally sufficient; but, as the hon. Member will appreciate, it is scarcely practicable to deal on a large scale with slum areas or to undertake the demolition of houses until much more has been done to meet the prevailing shortage of houses. Local authorities have been requested to proceed with the survey of the unhealthy areas in their districts and with the preparation of schemes in the most urgent cases. I will send the hon. Member a copy of a Manual on the subject which has been issued.
    Mr. MALONEasked the Minister of Health the extent of the slum areas, given in acreage, number of houses or
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    number of rooms, which have been condemned as unfit for habitation since the creation of the Ministry of Health; the number of occupants so affected; and the numbers for whom new accommodation has been erected?
    Dr. ADDISON: Since the creation of the Ministry of Health, local authorities have submitted for confirmation improvement schemes for areas comprising 10½ acres and 494 houses occupied by 2,938 persons of the working classes. New housing accommodation is proposed to be provided in connection with these schemes for 2,820 persons. These schemes are now being considered by my Department. I would also refer the hon. Member to the reply just given to his previous question.
    Mr. RAFFAN: Have any of these schemes been confirmed?
    Dr. ADDISON: Several of them are being confirmed, but I cannot say how many. We do not propose to proceed with them until more of the existing shortage is dealt with.
    Mr. MALONE: Is not an acreage of 10½ a very small percentage indeed of slum areas in our industrial towns?
    Dr. ADDISON: Of course it is, but schemes which are before us relate to vast areas of our slums. We cannot confirm orders until there is some prospect of sufficient additional accommodation to justify the demolition of these houses. We must do these things by stages.

    CONTRACTS WITH BUILDERS.
    Mr. LORDENasked the Minister of Health if he is prepared to give the same terms to others who contract to build houses as to building guilds, that is, 6 per cent. for overhead charges in addition to a profit of £40 per house?
    Dr. ADDISON: The 6 per cent. referred to covers plant and all overhead charges, salaries of buyers, head office expenses, and salaries of supervising staff not wholly employed on the site of the individual scheme. Among the conditions is one that any surplus out of the £40 per house and the 6 per cent. shall be devoted to improvement of the service of the guild. It would not appear, therefore, that the terms would be suitable for contracts with builders.
    Mr. LORDENasked the Minister of Health how many contracts have been signed for housing, also the number of houses contracted for up to the 31st May last; how many contracts has Contract Form No. 3 been used for; and what number of houses are being built under this form of contract?
    Dr. ADDISON: Complete information is not available for the period up to the 31st May, but up to the beginning of May 558 local authorities and public utility societies had signed contracts in regard to 1,144 housing schemes, comprising approximately 51,000 houses. Negotiations had on the 31st May been completed or were approaching completion for 25 contracts, relating to approximately 9,000 houses, based on Contract Form No. 3.

    POOR LAW SERVICES (REORGANISATION).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Health if he will withhold his assent to any scheme of a board of guardians for the reorganisation of its institutions or services prior to the introduction of a measure dealing with the Poor Law system as a whole until he is satisfied that amicable arrangements have been made with the officers concerned; and if, in the event of the Poor Law officers suffering monetary loss owing to a transfer of a portion of their duties to other authorities or offices, he will satisfy himself that the guardians have made adequate compensation for such loss as may be sustained by them?
    Dr. ADDISON: It is already the practice to give full consideration to the position of any officers affected by a re-organisation of services

    MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Health if he will state when he referred to the Consultative Council the question of extending municipal boundaries and the cost of the same; and on what date he expects to receive their Report on these matters?
    Dr. ADDISON: This question was referred to the Consultative Council on the 17th of March, and their Report is now before me.
    Mr. LUNN: Will the right hon. Gentleman publish the names of the Consultative Council and their Report, and if I put down a question for this day week, may I have an answer to the second part of the question?
    Dr. ADDISON: I have answered the second part. I received the Report two days ago. The names of the Members of the Council have already been published, but I will send my hon. Friend a copy.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to take action at an early date on that Report?
    Dr. ADDISON: I am not quite sure. It may need legislation. I propose to publish the Report, and my hon. Friend will see it.

    DENTISTS.
    Mr. RAFFANasked the Minister of Health when it is proposed to introduce legislation for the purpose of carrying out the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Dentists Act, 1878?
    Lieut.-Colonel HURSTasked the Minister of Health whether he is now able to make a statement as to the prospects of legislation this Session in respect of the registration of dentists and dental practitioners?
    Dr. ADDISON: I regret that, owing to the pressure of other legislation, the draft of this Bill is not yet completed, and I am unable to say when it will be introduced, though I hope it will be ready shortly.
    Mr. RAFFAN: In view of the urgency and importance of legislation, does the right hon. Gentleman hope to carry this measure through in the present Session?
    Dr. ADDISON: All depends upon whether it is a matter of controversy. We are attempting to deal with it as quickly as possible.
    Mr. RAFFAN: In the event of the measure proving non-controversial, does the right hon. Gentleman hope to get it through?
    Dr. ADDISON: I am always moved by hope.

  MUNITIONS.

    DISPOSAL BOARD (MESSRS. LEYLANDS).
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFTasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that a controller under the Disposal Board has negotiated a contract with Messrs. Leylands, in which his family is largely interested, in competition with another firm; whether there is reason to believe that the goods offered differed as to quantity and value, far exceeding the difference in tenders between Messrs. Leylands and their competitor; and whether, since the traditions of the Civil Service have been violated and an unnecessary loss has been caused to the State, he will give an early opportunity for discussing this question and eliciting the facts?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I can add nothing to what has already been said on this subject. I am not prepared to give the facilities asked for.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an opportunity to this House at an early date for discussing this question, in view of the extreme uneasiness throughout the business interests of the country?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I think the uneasiness is confined to my hon. and gallant Friend and his party. The proper body for investigation is the Select Committee on National Expenditure.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that when the Committee reports, the question will be discussed?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That depends on the report of the Committee. Certainly, if the House desire to discuss it, I shall be glad to give an opportunity.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to the matter, and ask leave to move the adjournment of the House, in view of the vital urgency of this question to the whole country and to national finance.
    At the end of Questions—
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public impor-
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    tance, namely, the present practice of the Disposal Board, involving loss to the State, owing to inefficient and irregular methods.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The statement which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just read out is of a very indefinite character, and not definite. I understood he desired to call attention to the subject matter of his Question No. 47, relating to a particular transaction with Messrs. Leyland. That would be a particular matter, but what, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has read out is much too indefinite, and could not possibly be taken.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: May I amend it as follows, "in that a contract has been granted to a certain firm, Messrs. Leyland Bros., involving loss to the State?"
    Mr. SPEAKER: That matter, I understand, is now being investigated by a Select Committee of the House. It could not, therefore, be discussed by the House while it is before the Committee.
    Sir RICHARD COOPER: If the hon. and gallant Member is able to show that large sums of money are being daily lost to the State, what course is open to him in such a case?
    Mr. SPEAKER: To bring it before the House on the proper occasion, for instance, in the discussion of the Estimates of the particular Department concerned.
    Sir R. COOPER: In that case must we knowingly allow daily losses to go on, and is there no means of remedying that?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is begging the whole question.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand from you, Sir, that if a case is being discussed by the Public Accounts Committee or by the Committee on Public Expenditure, this House is precluded from discussing any such question? Is that not a departure from the privileges of this House, and have we not a perfect right to discuss anything irrespective of the Committee?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Matters which have been referred to one of the Committees of this House the House itself will not discuss. Obviously, it would not do so, having referred the matter to a Committee for

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    discussion. The Committee would naturally be aggrieved if, after a matter had been referred to it for discussion, the House itself should undertake the discussion.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think you may have been misinformed, Sir. This question has not been specially remitted to the Committee. It merely happens that the Committee on Public Expenditure are enquiring into this case. They may enquire into any number of cases, as they do habitually, but that should not preclude this House from discussing any of these matters. Otherwise we might have our freedom and liberties circumscribed by a Committee taking up a case without meaning to put it through.
    Mr. SPEAKER: You might have this result, that the House might arrive at one decision and the Committee at another, which would be very undesirable. It has always been the rule that matters referred to a Committee should not be discussed by the House until the House has received the Report from the Committee. In any case, I should be inclined to hold that this matter is not urgent. It has been raised by the hon. and gallant Member on several occasions before the House, and, therefore, it can hardly be considered urgent.
    Mr. GWYNNE: The Committee on Public Expenditure is divided into three Sub-committees, dealing with almost every subject, and, if that be the rule, we should be precluded from almost any discussion. The Committee on National Expenditure have a right to roam over every subject.
    Lieut.-Colonel CROFT: Might I ask if it is not the duty of an hon. Member of this House who is aware of grave loss incurred by the State, to bring the matter forward on the earliest possible occasion? You, Sir, are aware of the fact that I endeavoured to raise this question on the Easter Adjournment, and was deliberately counted out by hon. Gentlemen. Therefore, what opportunity have we of stopping any grave loss to the country which we consider is going on, and which it is our duty to report to the House?
    Sir F. BANBURY: Is it not the fact that a Committee is not only investigating this particular subject at the moment, but has been doing so for the last two months, and in all probability will report to the House in about a fortnight's time?

    Mr. G. J. WARDLE.
    Mr. WHITEasked the Prime Minister on what date the resignation of Mr. G. J. Wardle, the late Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, took effect; what salaries or fees were paid to him from the commencement of the financial year, 1919–20, to the date of his resignation; and whether he now holds any salaried office under the Government?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The resignation took effect on the 9th March, 1920, and the amount paid in respect of salary from the commencement of the financial year, 1919–20, to the date of resignation was £1,153 16s. 11d. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. WHITE: Has Mr. Wardle now recovered sufficiently from his sudden illness to take up the position promised him?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better give notice of that question.
    Mr. WHITE: I did, and it was taken out.
    Mr. SPEAKER: If that be so the hon. Member should not put it again.

  PEACE TREATIES.

    ART TREASURES (GERMANY).
    Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked the Prime Minister what art treasures have so far been delivered over by Germany in accordance with the terms of the Peace Treaty?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I have no information on this subject. The deliveries, if any, have been made to France and Belgium direct in the form of restitution.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman make himself acquainted how far the terms of the Treaty arc being complied with? Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously say that the British Government has no knowledge of or interest in the fulfilment of the terms of the Treaty, so far as France is concerned? Is each Ally to act on its own initiative?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Of course we are interested, but I have no information on the subject.

    HUNGARY.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the Report of the British Labour delegation on the state of affairs in Hungary; and will he give the House an early opportunity of discussing affairs there and British responsibility in connection therewith?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part, I do not think that there would be any general desire for such a discussion.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman take an intimation through the usual channels that there is a desire for this discussion, as giving a claim upon the time of this House, so that we may discuss the responsibility of the British Government for the State of affairs in Hungary?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If the discussion be asked for in the ordinary way, of course, I shall be pleased to consider it.

    HUNGARY.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether this House will be given an early opportunity of discussing the Hungarian Peace Treaty?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I cannot name a date for the discussion of this subject.

    ARMENIA.
    Mr. PALMERasked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the United States, which is to delimit the boundaries of Armenia, has refused to accept the mandatory for Armenia, he will consider the advisability of recommending to the Allies that no power shall delimit boundaries which does not also undertake the responsibility of protecting such boundaries when delimited and accepting full mandatory duties?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The hon. Member is labouring under a misconception. The President of the United States, in his personal capacity, was asked to delimit the boundaries of Armenia, and I am glad to say he has accepted the task. He was further asked, as head of the United States Government, whether America would accept the mandate (not the "mandatory") for Armenia. This involved reference to Congress, which has, unfor-
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    tunately refused. But I am unable to agree that this refusal of the United States Government to accept the burden of the mandate should preclude His Majesty's Government and their Allies from submitting to the arbitration of President Wilson the difficult question of the boundaries of the Armenian State.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: May I ask the meaning of the phrase, to do this "in his personal capacity," as distinguished from his official capacity?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I should have thought my hon. Friend knew that as well as I.
    Mr. BOTTOMLEY: As President Wilson or Mr. Wilson?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That is a distinction which it would be very difficult to draw. He is President and he is Mr. Wilson.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: In the likely event of the United States refusing the mandate, are we to leave the Armenians to their devices or are we to consider any other mandatory, having regard to the fact that it will probably end with the mandate being taken by Soviet Russia?
    Mr. PALMER: In view of the fact that America has already refused the mandate, can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether this country will be compelled to undertake that duty?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That is an important question, but I think I can say at once that we shall not undertake it.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: There is no oil there.

    LOCAL ELECTIONS (PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION) BILL.
    Colonel BURNasked the Prime Minister whether he will give time this Session for the consideration of the Local Elections (Proportional Representation) Bill?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: It is impossible at this stage of the Session to say whether or not time will be available.
    Colonel BURN: Will the right hon. Gentleman try to put it on at an early date, because it is urgently needed?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: We have a great deal to do this Session, and I cannot make any promise.

    ANTI-DUMPING BILL.
    Mr. PALMERasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that to the dumping of American and French tyres is attributed the dismissal of 800 workmen at the Wood-Milne Rubber Works, Leyland; that it is stated that the London market is so overflowing with foreign tyres that British manufacturers dare not speculate in making large quantities; and whether, in view of the urgency of the matter, he can give the House and the country an assurance that the Government's antidumping legislation, promised at the General Election, will be introduced without further delay?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Bridgeman): I have been asked to reply. I am aware of the statements which have appeared in the Press as to the works in question. The exportation of rubber tyres from the United Kingdom has, in the first five months of this year, exceeded in value the importation of tyres by approximately £600,000, whereas in the corresponding period of 1913 the imports exceeded the exports in value by about £470,000. In these circumstances I am not satisfied that the foreign importations are seriously affecting the industry, and in any event I am not aware of any evidence that foreign tyres are being dumped in this country. I am not in a position at present to make any statement as to the date on which any anti-dumping legislation will be introduced.
    Mr. PALMER: May I ask whether the promises of anti-dumping legislation were merely election promises?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Of course they were.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That is not a question I can answer.
    Mr. PALMER: May I respectfully put that question in exactly the same terms to the Leader of the House?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: And I shall answer it very succinctly—No.
    Captain TERRELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the whereabouts of that locked box, which is supposed to contain a policy? Is it a fact—
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must give notice of that question.

    CZECHO-SLOVAKIA.
    Mr. SWANasked the Prime Minister whether Czecho-Slovakia has asked for, has been offered, or has received from this country any supplies of arms, munitions, or military equipments such as have been received by Poland from this country?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer is in the negative.

    NATIONAL INCOME.
    Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Finance Committee of the Cabinet has had laid before it any estimate of the national income?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: As stated in the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a question put to him by the hon. and gallant Member for East Newcastle on the 3rd instant, all estimates of total national income involve a considerable amount of guesswork. The Finance Committee of the Cabinet is not unacquainted with several such estimates, but, for the reason stated, the Treasury is not prepared to give official endorsement to any of them.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Has the Finance Committee any idea of the proportion of the national income which goes in public expenditure?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Of course we have an idea, but, as my answer shows, any estimate of the national income must be largely guesswork.
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House the estimate made of the proportion?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: They have been made by scores of economists, and they do not all agree.

    INCREASE OF RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST (RESTRICTION) BILL.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. HOAREasked the Minister of Health whether, under the Rent Restriction Act or the provisions of the new Bill, it is possible for an owner to obtain possession of his house if he wishes to live in it himself?
    Dr. ADDISON: Under the Increase of Rent (Amendment) Act, 1919, the owner of a house to which the restrictive provisions of the Acts apply can obtain an order for possession on the ground that he requires it for his own occupation if the Court, after considering all the circumstances and particularly the alternative accommodation available for the tenant, considers it reasonable to make such an order. A similar somewhat strengthened in favour of the tenant, will be found in Clause 5 of the Bill now before the House, to which I may perhaps refer my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman make special provision to deal with the case of a working man who has bought his house by instalments and comes back and wants to live in it himself and is unable to obtain possession?
    Dr. ADDISON: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by "comes back," but if he comes back from the War, it is specifically provided that he would be entitled to obtain possession of the house.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the case where a man has been called away—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Those are matters which can be discussed in Committee on the Bill.

    LOCAL ELECTIONS.
    Major STEELasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the advisability of amending the existing laws which regulate local elections, so as to compel a candidate for election to deposit a certain sum of money to be forfeited unless a reasonable percentage of votes are polled, with the object of preventing a candidate from standing for election without a reasonable chance of success, and secondly, to safeguard local ratepayers from increases in the rates caused
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    by candidates who force elections with no possible chance of success?
    Dr. ADDISON: The suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend will be considered.

    MONTENEGRO.
    The following Question appeared on the Order Paper:—
    Mr. RONALD McNEILL: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information as to the circumstances in which M. Dojitch, formerly President of the Montenegrin Parliament, was recently assassinated at Podgoritza, the Serbian headquarters in Montenegro; whether he is aware that M. Dojitch is known to have had conversation with Count de Salis while the latter was in Montenegro; and whether he has any information to the effect that the murder was not unconnected with the conferences between M. Dojitch and the representative of the British Government.
    Mr. McNEILL: On a point of Order. May I state that this question appears in a different form from that of which I gave notice. The effect of the change is to make it appear as if the suggestion in the last part of the question came from me, which is not the fact. With that explanation I beg to ask Question No. 69.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): The answer to all parts of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. McNEILLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French Government, in communicating to the Serbians the contents of Count de Salis's report on Montenegro, did so at the request or after consultation with His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I have no information as to the action of the French Government referred to by my hon. and learned Friend.

    ALBANIA.
    Mr. AUBREY HERBERTasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French forces have

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    evacuated Koritza, and if Greek troops have advanced upon the town and have been compelled to retire by the Albanians; and what steps the Supreme Council is taking to prevent the violation of Albanian frontiers?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I understand that French forces lately evacuated Koritza, but no advance was made upon that town by Greek troops; consequently no collision with the Albanians occurred. The Supreme Council will continue their efforts to secure the proper settlement of the Albanian question, and in this matter the Greek Government, together with the other Governments concerned, are loyally co-operating with them.
    Sir S. HORNE: Has the British Government received the report on which the hon. Gentleman bases his answer from the British representative.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I should like notice of that question.
    Earl WINTERTON: What troops were they, if they were not Greek troops, after the French retired.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I cannot say, I would require notice.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Have we a British representative in Albania?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I think not at the present moment.

    LORD DERBY WAR HOSPITAL, WARRINGTON.
    Mr. ROBERT YOUNGasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a Miss Dean was employed during 1919 at the Lord Derby War Hospital, Warrington, and met with an accident when alighting from a War Department motor charabanc; that she made a claim for compensation in the correct way and an inquiry was held, which resulted in compensation being refused on the ground that she was not authorised to use the conveyance; and, seeing that she had got such authority by the issue to her of a permit stating that she had permission to travel on the omnibus or charabanc leaving Earlestown at 6.45 a.m. and returning from the hospital at 6.30 p.m., will he make inquiries into her case?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: This claim is being investigated, but the inquiries are not yet complete. I will communicate the result to the hon. Member as quickly as possible.

    CROPS AND LIVESTOCK (QUESTIONNAIRE).
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture whether he is aware that a return demanding answers to 55 questions in minute detail as to crops and livestock within five days has been issued to farmers, together with a list of instructions under 18 paragraphs; and whether, in view of the amount of information asked for, he thinks the period allowed for supplying same is reasonable?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, I do not think that five days is an insufficient period to allow for supplying the information required, which can be furnished in the great majority of cases without any special investigation. It is essential that the particulars supplied should be as on 4th June, and if a longer period than five days were allowed there would be a danger that the number of livestock, for instance, might be given as on another date, which might impair seriously the accuracy of the statistics as a whole. Experience has shown that farmers find no difficulty in filling up and returning the forms at once.

    AGRICULTURAL ORGANISATION SOCIETY.
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he will state what was the total amount of subsidy paid to the Agricultural Organisation Society during 1919; whether the organising was done by paid organisers or otherwise; what amount of the subsidy for the year was paid as salaries and expenses, respectively; and wlil he say what was the amount of affiliation fees paid during the said year, the number of societies which paid affiliation fees, and the amount per head of the membership the fees paid represent?
    Sir A. BOSCAWEN: During the financial year 1919–20 grants paid to the Agricultural Organisation Society from the Development Fund and the Ministry amounted to £45,600. In addition, a loan of £15,000 was issued to the Society from the Development Fund. The organising was done by paid organisers, but a great amount of voluntary assistance was also given. The salaries and expenses of the staff amounted to £27,810 and £9,462 respectively; of these amounts approximately four-fifths were met by the Government grants. The amount of affiliation fees paid during the year was £6,990. The number of societies which paid fees was 1,074. I regret, however, that it will not be possible to state the relation of fees to membership until the complete annual returns of the societies for 1919 have been received.

    FORESTRY COMMISSION.
    Dr. McDONALDasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture whether the examinations held in the course of forestry training are truly competitive; whether some candidates have obtained positions without fulfilling the recognised standard; and whether some of the selected candidates have done no active war service while others who have served abroad have been passed over?
    Mr. FORESTIER-WALKER (for the Forestry Commission): I have been asked to answer this question. With regard to appointments as forest officers under the Forestry Commission, no examinations are held by the Commission, examinations for forestry degrees or diplomas being conducted by the universities and colleges where training in the subject is given. There is no examination standard the attainment of which entitles a candidate to an appointment as forest officer under the Commission, as all the qualifications of candidates, including not only university or college qualifications, but also practical experience, are reviewed by the Commissioners before any appointment is made. May I refer the hon. Member in this connection to my reply on the 17th May last to the hon. Member for Carnarvonshire.
    With regard to appointments as foresters or foremen under the Commission, the same course is followed
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    before any appointment is made, but at the Commission's schools for forest apprentices periodical competitive examinations are held as a test of progress. Some of the selected candidates for the positions of forest officer or forester have had active war service abroad, while others, owing to age or for other reasons, have not served abroad. It is not possible in the interest of the service to pass over every candidate who has not had war service abroad.

  GOVERNMENT OFFICES (STAFFS AND ACCOMMODATION).

    HAY AND STRAW DEPARTMENT, WAR OFFICE.
    Mr. CHARLES BARRIEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state what are now the functions of the Hay and Straw Department of the War Office, how many buildings this Department occupies, the number of employés, and the annual cost?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: The Forage Department of the War Office is being wound up and will cease to exist at the end of the present month. The Department occupies one office only with a small staff, which is daily diminishing.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    POLEGATE AIRSHIP STATION.
    Mr. GWYNNEasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that a draft of men has recently been billeted at Polegate and Willingdon whilst working at the Polegate airship station, in spite of the fact that there is accommodation for large numbers of men at the aerodrome; and whether it is reasonable, in view of the shortage of housing accommodation, to compulsorily billet men in adjoining villages, and so deprive others from obtaining accommodation when excellent huts are standing empty?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: The airship station at Polegate was evacuated on the 6th February, 1920, and handed over to the Disposal Board of the Ministry of Munitions, in accordance with the undertaking given by the Under-Secretary of State for Air in his answer to my hon. Friend's question on the 29th October last. Almost immediately after this had

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    been done, request for certain airship stores were received from Dominion Governments. On the receipt of these requests, the station was withdrawn from the Disposal Board and the Governments concerned were asked to define more exactly the stores which they required. On the receipt of this information, a party of two officers and 45 men was sent to pack the stores required, and it was considered that, owing to the short period during which this party would be employed at Polegate, it would be cheaper and quicker to billet them than to re-open the station, with the consequent provision of bedding, barrack stores, rations, fuel, light, etc., in addition to the extra personnel which it would have been necessary to send to make these arrangements, and which the Air Force can ill spare at present.
    Mr. GWYNNE: For how long will these men be there?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: I am informed a short time.

    OFFICERS (SWORDS).
    Mr. THOMASasked the Secretary of State for Air whether all officers of the Royal Air Force have been ordered to equip themselves with swords; and what is the approximate cost of these weapons?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: The provision of full dress uniform (of which a sword forms part) is at present optional. The wearing of the sword with any other Royal Air Force uniform has not been authorised, and no order has been issued compelling officers of the Royal Air Force to equip themselves with swords. In reply to the second part of the question, the cost of sword, scabbard, belt and slings, together with sword knot, is approximately £11.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask if the senior officers of this Force will have to wear spurs as well?
    Mr. PALMER: Is not this a ridiculous waste of money at a time when we are all anxious to save money?
    Sir A. WILLIAMSON: I cannot see that there is any waste of money, as it is optional.
    Mr. PALMER: Is it optional? Do not men in the Force copy each other, and if
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    one man buys a sword, another man feels compelled to buy a sword also?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It seems to me to be a matter which could much better be dealt with in Debate.
    Mr. PALMER: Am I not in order in asking a question without being called to order by the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I was not in the least challenging the hon. Gentleman on the point of Order, only as a matter of the general convenience of the House.
    Captain W. BENN: Are Air officers permitted to attend ceremonial occasions, if they have not got swords?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, I think not. It may well be that the House would like an opportunity of debating this rather difficult question, about which there is necessarily and admittedly a great difference of opinion. Personally, I do not shrink from such a discussion, although I do not assume that any discussion will produce unanimity of opinion. Still, the reasons for the action would be made clear. I am certain that no advantage will be reached by a number of interesting questions at this stage.

BILL PRESENTED.
  LEGITIMACY BILL,
  "to amend the Law relating to children born out of wedlock," presented by Colonel BURN; supported by Mr. Turton, Colonel Newman, and Mr. Aneurin Williams; to be read a Second Time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed.[Bill 137.]

  HARBOURS, DOCKS, AND PIERS (TEMPORARY INCREASE OF CHARGES) BILL,
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 112.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 112.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 136.]

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  Cooper's Divorce Bill [Lords] and Fife-Young's Divorce Bill [Lords],—That they communicate Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings taken upon the Second Reading of Cooper's Divorce Bill [Lords] and Fife-Young's Divorce Bill [Lords], as desired by the Commons, with a request that the same may be returned.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to authorise the South Suburban Gas Company to manufacture and store gas and residual products on certain lands and to raise additional capital; to alter the basis of charging by that company for gas supplied by them; to amend the existing enactments with respect to the relation between price and dividend in the case of that company; and for other purposes." [South Suburban Gas Bill [Lords.]
  South Suburban Gas Bill [Lords],
  Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:

  1. "That, in the case of the Londonderry Bridge Commissioners [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

  2. "That, in the case of the Manchester Ship Canal Bill [Lords], Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit."

  Resolutions agreed to.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Lieut-Colonel Allen, Lieut.-Colonel Meysey-Thompson, and Mr. Raper; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. George Jones, Lieut.-Colonel Pinkham, and Mr. Daniel Wilson.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee B: Sir Gordon Hewart.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  AGRICULTURE BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [7th June], "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Question again proposed.
  Mr. SEDDON: On Monday evening, when this Bill was under discussion, I was dealing with the point of view as to the utility and desirability of encouraging agriculture from the point of view of the health of the community. I also referred to the fact that to leave agriculture in the uncertainty in which it is at the present time is grossly unfair to the returned soldier and sailor, who are being asked to be put upon the land. I am one of those individuals who believe that agriculture is the foundation of the social state, and the idea that economics alone matter is not in the interest of the community. The Bill we are now discussing has been opposed by one hon. Member because it contains a guarantee of a minimum price for produce. I would ask the hon. Member whether he likewise opposes the establishment and the continuation of the minimum wage. It is an irrefutable fact that one hangs upon the other, and, unless this security and this guarantee are given to the farmer, then it is a certainty that the wage of the agricultural labourer will begin to decline, and the number engaged will also be a diminishing quantity. This question raises more than the issue of the welfare of the agricultural labourer, or the tenant farmer, or even the landlord. I think I can say with confidence that the right to abuse or selfishly use land in this country is now definitely challenged, and the great mass of the people are not prepared to allow this asset of the nation to be merely used for selfish purposes. The Bill, I understand, does attempt to realise the war lessons upon this very urgent and important question.
  4.0 P.M.
  Complaint has been made as to the delay with the Bill. The hon. Member for Northamptonshire said it was 18 months out of date. The variety of opinions on this subject was demonstrated at a meeting of agriculturists at the Farmers' Club in April, 1919. There was
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  a paper read, very far-reaching in its effect, and comprehensive, on the question of agriculture and the requirements of the tenant farmer. That paper was criticised by ten different speakers, who had ten different points of view, and I say that if the experts a year ago had not been able to make up their minds, then the Government have some reasonable excuse for the delay that has occurred in trying to present a Bill which will, at least, attain the object they have in view, and get some degree of unanimity so far as the agriculturists of this country are concerned. Another hon. Member asked for a definition of food production. I gathered from his remarks that he thought that agriculture could look after itself. I readily admit that, after the terrible times agriculture passed through from 1879 onwards, many of those who had money were able to hang on; they were able to readjust their system of culture by laying down large tracts of land to grass. But that is not in the interests of the community, and I say that it is rightly understood that our system of culture in this country—the rotation of crops—requires that there shall be wheat grown at least once in every four years. I believe that is the ordinary custom of agriculture in this country, and wheat is an invaluable crop so far as the land itself is concerned. Another hon. Member took exception to this Bill, because it has not been presented as the Alpha and Omega of agriculture. He said, "What is the good of it? It does not deal with scientific treatment; it does not deal with artificial fertilisers; it does not deal with the question of transport," and I believe he also mentioned the question of finance. I have yet to find any statute that takes congnisance of every Government Department. This Bill is dealing with agriculture. I want to say the Board of Agriculture are doing something in the direction of education. I believe that wants accelerating and extending. The question of transport will come under the Minister of Transport, and, when his scheme is in working order, there is some hope that the confusion in the distribution of agricultural produce will become a thing of the past. Education, science as applied to agriculture, and a better knowledge in the use of artificial fertilisers are questions which, I believe, are receiving the attention, directly or in-

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  directly, of the Government, and it is asking too much that you should in any particular Bill deal with the problem from A to Z covering the whole gamut of the life of the agriculturist in this country. Another hon. Member gave the Bill a welcome because of the second part. He said that he would be much more happy if Part 1 were deleted. Part 1 is as essential as Part 2. Part 2, I admit, deals with a long-standing grievance, but Part 1 introduces new principles, and upon the basis of those new principles I believe we may look forward with considerable hope for a revival and for comparative prosperity in this great industry. One hon. Member in criticising the Bill forgot that there is another Act which nullifies his criticisms. In answer to an interjection, he said that he opposed the Bill because of the number of inspectors that would be appointed. There was a Bill introduced last year which threw upon the Agricultural Committees the function of selecting those who would make examinations when complaints were made. I believe I am right in saying that in certain parts of the country names of very estimable gentlemen of very high standing have been put forward, but their names have not been accepted by the Board because they have no connection with agriculture. I think the fear of interference on the part of inspectors is more in the imagination of hon. Gentlemen than possible under the Bill.
  I do not for one moment impeach the ability of the three authorities, the Farmers' Union, the Treasury, and, I think, the Lord Chancellor, to select sound men of probity and fair play for the Commission, but it would remove suspicion, I will not say anything stronger, if a panel were drawn up by well-known men of authority, and if from that panel names were selected. I am afraid that there may be a charge of political partisanship in connection with these selections, but, if the panel were known to the agricultural community and if names were drawn from that panel, it would remove any suspicion that might exist in the minds of some that there may be a danger of political partisanship in the selection of the Commissioners. I said a moment ago that I believed the Bill was a real attempt to apply the lessons of the War, and I want to say that I had the privilege of a very long discussion with the Minister of Agriculture
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  before he became Minister, and during that discussion I was forced to the conclusion that he had not only given profound study to the matter, but that his mind was in a receptive mood, and that whatever might have been his political predelictions in pre-War days he was honestly trying to formulate a policy with the three-fold object of securing the agricultural labourer a decent standard of subsistence, of getting security for the tenant farmers, and above and beyond all, of bringing into use the land of this country much more profitably and to a greater extent than it has been up to the present time. We have an enormous load of debt, and every million acres brought under the plough means from £8,000,000 to £10,000,000 reduction in our Food Bill for supplies from foreign countries. If, by giving ample security, we could gain the confidence of the agricultural community and have an extension of cultivation under the plough, bringing, say, 4,000,000 acres more under cultivation, we should go a long way to relieve the great financial burden resting upon us at the present time.
  Agriculture, in my opinion, stands separately from all other forms of industry. In manufactures it is the financial and economic sides that decides to a very large extent, but in agriculture there are values that no other form of industry can give to the country. There is the question of safety. I am not going to anticipate another war. I see my Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil), whose interest in the League of Nations is admired by all who want to keep the peace of the world, but even in his presence I must say that without being a pessimist I have not yet arrived at the decision that the War, horrible as it has been, has changed human nature. I hope that the advocacy of the League of Nations will create that sentiment which will make war impossible in the future, but at present we should be ill-advised to bank upon that hope and say that agriculture as a means of safety should be neglected, because we are convinced that there is going to be no more war. There are other values in agriculture. There is the value of the health of the community. You do not get these values reported upon the Stock Exchange, but I venture to say that national security and the health of the community are just as much in the interests of the total wealth of the community as so much divi-

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  dend upon capital invested. I therefore welcome this Bill, because I am convinced that our past treatment of agriculture has been wrong from every standpoint. The great agricultural community resent interference, and the idea of being taught science in agriculture will make some of them squirm, but, after all, we need to exercise a little patience with the agriculturist, because science is only applied experience, and I know there are many men tilling the ground successfully who could not argue by text book why this, that, or the other happens, but who can grow the best crops, even although it may be by rule of thumb methods. We want patience with the agricultural community. I believe that the great urban populations for the first time are prepared to recognise that they have an obligation to the agricultural community. It only needs presenting to the urban population that they have no right to have cheap food at the expense of sweated labour, the degradation of their fellow worker, or the bankruptcy of the farmer. I believe that the great urban population will take a different point of view than they took in pre-War days, despite the jeers of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am glad you are convinced of something.
  Mr SEDDON: Well, I have not changed, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has, because of the loss of friends. It is because I have convictions. The attitude of the urban population is sympathetic, and, whatever may be the opposition to this Bill, I am convinced, if it can be proved that it is in the interests of the worker on the land and the security of agriculturists, that it will be received by them, and for that reason I give it my support.
  Mr. LAMBERT: My hon. Friend who has just sat down was a very valuable member of a Committee which sat two or three years ago upon these agricultural subjects, and I am sure he will agree that it was quite impossible for him at that time to foresee the present condition of agriculture. I am in a similar quandary, because the War has changed the whole outlook for agriculture. We have to recognise that there has been a revolution in the agricultural industry. The old order is passing. The great landowners
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  are passing. One of the signs that the old epoch is going was when we read in the newspapers, with almost a shudder, that Devonshire House was to be turned into a cinema! The great landowners are selling their estates. It may be that they do not wish to do so, but it is a question of force majeure. They must do it. Income-tax, Super-tax, and Death Duties will compel the break-up of the large estates of this country. The tenant farmers have benefited during the War. One cannot disguise that fact. The farmers themselves would admit it. They are buying up farms at apparently inflated prices. After all, the big landowners have done their duty. They have not charged bare-bone rents in the past. The farmers have been easily rented. The labourers to-day have the minimum wage, but they will tell you that they are not so well off as they were before the War.
  Mr. JESSON: That applies to everybody.
  Mr. LAMBERT: I think there are some who have benefited; but the agricultural labourers, at any rate, in Devonshire, tell me, if they have a family, that they would rather be in the position in which they were before the War than the position in which they are to-day, with the present high cost of living. I am quite prepared, indeed anxious, to consider this Bill from the point of view of increasing arable cultivation in this country. I hope sincerely that the alarming prospects which are held out of a shortage of wheat will not be realised. It would be very serious to this country if they were realised. My right hon. Friend in one part of his speech talked about the submarine menace. Frankly, I am appalled when I hear that we have to prepare for another war so soon after the last War. All I can say is, if we have to prepare for another war so soon after the late War, then the gentlemen who have been at the Peace Conference have not done their duty. Production on the land, and the increase in the arable area, must depend upon the price which the farmer or cultivator will get for his produce. That is absolutely a sound doctrine. There can be no way out of that. No farmer is in business for his health, although he has a very healthy occupation. Therefore we have to consider what are the proposals of the Bill—and I propose to review them in a very friendly spirit—in regard to fixing a

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  price for wheat and oats which will induce the farmer to plough up more land, and bring it under cultivation. In his Bill my right hon. Friend has brought in two things—that the basic year shall be 1919, and that 68s. shall be the minimum price per quarter for wheat, and 46s. per quarter for oats. Where, I ask him, does he get those figures? The Report of the Agricultural Commission? But the Agricultural Commission was hopelessly divided on the subject.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE (Sir Arthur Boscawen): The majority!
  Mr. LAMBERT: Oh, the majority. Let us see what they say:
  "We recommend that in fixing the guaranteed prices for the grain crops of 1920 the Agricultural Costings Committee should take the following figures which, on our estimate, are somewhat below the average bare cost of production in 1918–as the datum line from which to proceed."
  Then they give 68s. per quarter for wheat, 59s. per quarter for barley, and 46s. per quarter for oats. I may mention in passing, that barley has been left out of the Bill altogether, though this was recommended by the Commission. What I wish to draw attention to are these words:
  "We recommend that the following figures which are" (they say) "somewhat below the average bare cost of production."
  What does that mean? Does that mean the actual cost of production? Does it mean that in this figure there is any profit left to the farmer? I should like my right hon. Friend to tell me. Is this bare cost of production, without any profit at all for the farmer? If so, what are the use of the figures?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I think I had better answer later.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Certainly, but I am putting my questions now. If these figures are based upon the bare cost of production, and there is no profit for the farmer, why, of course, these figures are no good at all, because no farmer is going to produce unless he anticipates a profit. My right hon. Friend in introducing the Bill said: "This is a Bill to guarantee, not a profit; it is a guarantee against loss." How does anyone, how does my right hon. Friend who has just sat down, expect an enormous increase in the arable
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  area of the country if men are only to be guaranteed against loss? I ask this question in a very friendly spirit, because I want to help the Government in their Bill. Another point: You are to have four years' notice before these minimum prices are to be withdrawn. I can scarcely understand that. I have studied the Bill. I believe this was recommended by the Commission, but I cannot understand how anybody outside a madhouse, or this Commission, or a Government Department, could recommend that four years should be given. What is the first thing that would have to be done? Supposing I farm, or I have a friend who farms, 100 acres of wheat. I want to increase the acreage under wheat to 150 acres. What is the first thing I have to do? I must have more labour; that will mean cottages. I have to get more horses; that will mean stables. I have to get tractors, and tractors were, in my judgment, a very partial success in Devonshire. I have to get ploughs and an enormous number of other etceteras. By the time I have got these things the four years are nearly up.
  Do the Government really think anyone is going to embark upon a large scheme of arable cultivation with only four years' notice and guarantee? I do not quite understand how such a proposal can have come into the Bill. Here, again, if you are going in for these guarantees you must really have practical unanimity. My hon. Friend who has just sat down said that the urban population will be with us, that they will view us sympathetically, that they will view the extension of area sympathetically, and are prepared to pay for it. Are they? Will they? This Commission was very sharply divided in opinion. Twelve members recommended the guarantee; the 11 other members were against it altogether. Here are their words:
  "We are, therefore, of opinion that nothing in the conditions under which the industry was carried on before the War, or in the prospects now before it, would justify us in recommending the continuance of the policy of guaranteed prices for cereals."
  So 12 are in favour of guaranteed prices—no, only 11 were in favour—and the twelfth, the hon. Member for East Grinstead, thinks they are not sufficient at all, and he was a member of the Commission. You cannot have any great expansion of the arable area of the country upon such a slender foundation. The hon. Member

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  for Kettering said: "There is considerable risk." Parliament, this Parliament, cannot bind its successors. What will happen if you have a Parliament elected which says, "We will have no guarantees, and if there are such guarantees we will not pay them"? No, I really am sorry to say that I can only conclude that this Bill will not add a single extra acre of wheat to the country. That has been said over and over again in Debate. Three hon. Members have spoken—the Chairman of the Agricultural Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead, and the hon. Member for Kettering—and all these have stated in as many words that this Bill will not add a single acre to the wheat acreage of the country. I tell the Ministry of Agriculture, the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and the Government that, if they are going to have a guarantee, they want a guarantee that will be effective, and it cannot be for four years; it must be for at least 20 years. No man is going to engage in building, buying horses, and so on, and entirely change the character of his cultivation, unless he has got a guarantee for at least 20 years, and any practical farmer will tell you so. This is the condition of an extension of the arable area.
  What is to happen? How are prices to be fixed? There are three Commissioners to be appointed, one by the Board of Trade, one by the Board of Agriculture, and the other by the Treasury. How are these gentlemen to fix the minimum prices or cost of production itself? Honestly, I do not know. There is some land that will grow five quarters of wheat per acre, at a less cost than other land will grow 3½ quarters But I go on. I tell the Government that if they wish for a greater extension of arable area, they must give something more tangible in the way of guarantees. There is no way out of it if you are to win the confidence of the agricultural community. Agriculture is the one industry of the country that requires individual enterprise and individual effort. It is the one industry that depends so much on individual effort If anyone is in any doubt about that, let me say that I spent a sad last week in France. I saw there how the French peasants who are working for themselves are endeavouring to recover the land. They were at work before 6 o'clock
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  in the morning, and were still busy at 7.30 at night. But they were working for themselves. I wish them well. However, that is perhaps away from the point. This Bill does a good deal to bring agriculture under Government control. Is my right hon. Friend aware quite how far this Bill really tries to Bolshevise agriculture in this country? I cannot quite recognise in the Noble Lord the Minister of Agriculture and my right hon. Friend opposite Lenin and Trotsky, but still they seem to be taking great powers over the agricultural industry. Let us see how far the agriculturists are allowed to handle their own enterprise?
  The cost of production—that is under the Wages Board. The farmer has no voice in it. Under this Bill the landowner may be compelled to put up buildings by an order of the County Committee. Then the Board of Agriculture may come down, and tell the farmer what crop has to be on the land. Lastly, the price of the crop is to be fixed by Government officials—these omnipotent gentlemen, who are to sit up here like little angels guarding the agricultural industry. There is a good deal of Government interference in this. There was one remark which fell from the hon. Member for Kettering which, I thought, was very illuminating. I am very glad that the Labour party have got to see it. That is, that you cannot farm land in this country by inspectors. I do not think that even the very beneficient reign of the Board of Agriculture, and these estimable officials, who seem to like control and want to gather it in with their hands, will prove quite the right remedy to-day. I observe that in a great newspaper—this morning's "Times"—it says that this is a Bill which bids fair to give the farmer all that he can reasonably require. I would not mind at all this Governmental experiment being applied to the newspapers. I wonder what the editor of the "Times," or Lord Northcliffe—I believe he is in control—would say supposing the wages of all his compositors, reporters, and everyone else were fixed by the Government? Supposing that in relation to the plant he used, the printing machinery etc., the London County Committee could come in, and order what he had to put in. Supposing the contents of the newspaper, or his own newspapers, were to be prescribed for him, like the Board of Agriculture, prescribes what I am to till on my farm

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  —I have no doubt that some Members of the Government might be very glad to do this—supposing the price were to be fixed by three gentlemen up here in London, I do not think that the "Times" newspaper would be quite satisfied, or that Lord Northcliffe would sit down very calmly under it.
  There is one thing which the agricultural industry are sick and tired of, and disgusted with, and that is Government control. We have got so many Departments at present, and indeed the very Department for encouraging arable cultivation is not the Ministry of Agriculture, but the Ministry of Food. If you are going to get wheat cultivated, it depends upon the price, and the Food Minister is fixing the price all along the line. If you want cottages in the country, it is not a matter for the Board of Agriculture. But you go to the Health Minister. Then we have lurking in the offing the Minister for Labour, who has some scheme about agricultural hours; and then we have the Board of Agriculture, dodging about like a dog on a racecourse. If you want to encourage wheat growing, you have to allow the farmers to get the market price for their product, and you are not doing that to-day.
  Mr. GLANVILLE: A good job, too.
  Mr. LAMBERT: May I point out to the hon. Member that the Minority Report is signed by the Labour Members on the Commission. Here is the name of Mr. W. R. Smith, who is a Labour Member, and I assume that he represents the Labour party.
  Mr. ROYCE: The remark to which the right hon. Gentleman turned round to reply was not made by any member of the Labour party.
  Mr. GLANVILLE: No; the remark was made by a Free Liberal.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Then I was mistaken, but I will not go into that question. It seems to me that I am about the only old-fashioned Liberal left in this House to the extent that I do not owe allegiance to any of our present leaders. This is what the Minority Report says:
  "We are strongly of opinion that the British farmer should be free to sell his cereals at the price at which imported cereals are sold in this country."
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  How can you expect farmers to have confidence in your new tribunal under present circumstances? If it suit the Government to keep down the price, they do it. Farmers are very suspicious of the Government in this matter of prices. Let me say a word about labour. After all, the labourers are a very important part of the agricultural community. They are dissatisfied, very dissatisfied, to-day, and they have reason for it. I was recently in the country in a remote North Devon parish when an agricultural labourer said to me: "My wages have been fixed by the Wages Board at 42s. per week, and my son is working on the railway and he is getting 59s. per week. What is the reason for that?" I candidly confessed that I could not say. Can my right hon. Friend or any Member of the Government explain it? This has all been fixed by outside authorities, and now I understand that another 8s. per week is to be added to the railway men's wages. I am not able to follow it. I do not begrudge it, but what about the agricultural labourer, who is to be dealt with in this Bill? The difference now will be all the more striking.
  In the case I mentioned of the labourer, instead of his son getting 59s. a week, he will be getting 67s., or 25s. a week more than the agricultural labourer. You cannot expect agricultural labourers to be satisfied under those conditions, and I cannot help thinking that you have got the country into a thundering muddle over this matter. The agricultural labourer is not content to be sweated in this way, because he has to pay his share of the railway charges, and I think he is entitled to an equal wage with that of a railway porter, because he works harder and, more than that, he works more hours. [AN HON. MEMBER: "And it is skilled labour!"] Yes, and it is skilled labour. I do not want to decry the skill of the railway porter, especially when you arrive at the railway station, and cannot find anyone to take your luggage. Do you propose to fix the price of wheat and oats at a price which will enable the farmer to pay 67s. a week? That is a point you have to consider.
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: If my right hon. Friend will look at the Bill, he will see that in case there be any variation in the cost of production, a rise of wages would be reflected in the guaranteed price.
  Mr. LAMBERT: I quite agree. We have no control over these things. The Wages Board fixed the agricultural labourer's wage, but will they put up the wage to 67s.? Will you put up the price of wheat and oats so that the agricultural labourer can be paid the same as a railway porter? You are now passing a Bill dealing with this question through Parliament, and I think I have a right to ask these things. I assure the Government, and my hon. Friend who has just sat down, that it is easy to make speeches here, and draw rosy pictures of what is going to happen; but you have to go down into the country to work it out in a practical way. I think the agricultural labourer deserves every encouragement, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that if you intend to increase the arable area, it means more labourers on the land, and the rural housing part of the Government scheme should be under the Board of Agriculture, or somebody who will attend to rural housing. The labourers cannot live without houses on the land. The security of the farmer I regard as a very excellent provision in the Bill, and I hope that nothing in this measure will be allowed to go through which would in any way set up dual ownership. That to my mind would be fatal. More than that, there must be fair play for the owner of the land. You must give an owner every encouragement to spend money on buildings and equipping and draining the land.
  One can say with confidence that in the vast majority of cases landowners of the country have treated their tenants fairly and generously. They never would have got through the terrible agricultural depression between 1880 and 1900 unless the landlords had met their tenants. The cases of capricious evictions are few and far between, but I agree with the Government that the tenant farmer should be protected against capricious eviction, and also against the land speculator. Many owners have had to sell their farms through no fault of their own, and I suggest that my right hon. Friend in this matter should steer a very just and judicious course. He must not injure the owner of the land, and must prevent any unjust owner of land from injuriously affecting his tenants. I hope we shall all be agreed on this matter. For my own part I cannot help thinking that simplicity in this matter would be the best. With regard to questions of improvements, if
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  any farmer make an improvement which increases the market value of the holding, he should be paid the value of that improvement when he quits. I contend that the Bill will have to be very radically altered if we are to increase the arable cultivation of the land to the extent of anything like 4,000,000 acres, about which my right hon. Friend spoke in his opening speech. If that additional area is to be added to the cultivable area of this country, this Bill will have to be hatched again, and hatched differently.
  Captain TERRELL: I would like to say at the outset of my remarks that I regard this Bill as a direct attempt by the Government to fulfil its pledge. To my mind, it is an honest effort to satisfy all the parties concerned in the great industry of agriculture. Not only is it designed to meet the needs of the landowners, the tenant farmers, and the agricultural workers, but, further than that, it is framed in the interests of the nation as a whole, and therefore I welcome it. I am firmly convinced that this Bill is fair to all the parties concerned. The landowner, if he is a good landowner, has nothing to fear at all. The tenant farmer gets the security which is essential to him, and the labourer knows that under this Bill he will get a fair wage for his efforts to produce food for the nation. And last, but not least, the consumer knows that a genuine effort is being made to safeguard him against the great shortage of foodstuffs which does exist to-day throughout the world.
  After listening to the Debate on the Bill I must express my surprise at the opposition which has been levelled against it by practically every hon. Member who has spoken. The hon. and gallant Member who sits for the Daventry Division of Northamptonshire (Captain Fitzroy) stated in his opening remarks that he was only expressing his own view, and not those of hon. Members with whom he is associated in this House. I am indeed glad of that admission, because I do not believe for a single moment that the views which he expressed can in any way be taken as an indication of the general view held by the Members of the Committee over which he presided with such ability and skill. It would seem to me, at any rate, that he has changed his mind in a very short time. Only the other day I read with great interest a speech which he delivered to a large gathering of

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  farmers in his own division. I believe he was then addressing the local branch of the National Farmers' Union in Northamptonshire, and he said the Bill was a genuine endeavour by the Government to carry out the pledges given by the Prime Minister at the Caxton Hall, and, if anything, the measure was more in the interests of the nation as a whole than in those of the agricultural community. But in the House of Commons on Monday, only a few days after that statement, the hon. and gallant Member said:
  "I am convinced that the Bill will do harm and will lead to less production in this country by giving less security than is the case now."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1920, Vol. 130, Col. 105.]
  I really wonder which view the hon. and gallant Gentleman holds, whether he is in favour of the Bill, or whether he really means that it is a bad Bill from the national point of view. Again, the hon. and gallant Member for Daventry said he was of the opinion that this Bill bore the hall mark of the National Farmers' Union. I maintain that it is not so, and that it is framed generally on the lines suggested by the Reconstruction Committee over which Lord Selborne presided. But even if it does bear the hall mark of the National Farmers' Union, that does not make its case any the worse, because, after all, the hon. and gallant Member is a supporter of the National Farmers' Union, and has signed its whole programme without any reservation at all. So much for the criticisms which have been levelled against the Bill. There are a few points upon which I should like to ask an explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture. These various points which I am going to raise have all been brought to my direct attention by farmers themselves, and therefore I claim that they are worthy of consideration. In Part I, which deals with the amendment of the Corn Production Act, 1917, we find in Clause 4, Subsection (8), a definition of the rules of good husbandry. Is it according to the, terms of the tenancy agreement, and, if so, will words to that effect be inserted? There are provisions dealing with the maintenance and clearing of drains, dykes and ditches. May I ask my right hon. Friend to define the position of a tenant farmer in a case which has frequently occurred where the outlet is blocked for reasons over which he has no control? Again, what would be the position of a
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  farmer in a mining district where subsidences occur and damage is done to the drainage system. Would that tenant be liable to have to quit his holding without compensation if given notice to quit, because, for reasons over which he had no control at all, he had failed to comply with the rules of good husbandry? Then again, in Clause 7, if a tenant farmer asks for a reduction of rent and a landlord refuses to go to arbitration, would notice to quit in such a case be treated as capricious, and would compensation be payable on the penal scale?
  Another point I would like to raise is that apparently no provision is made in this Bill for cases where a tenant is required to leave his holding so that the landlord may farm it himself and then, a year later, let it or sell it as he chooses. I would like to say a few words on Clause 12 which deals with arbitration on quitting a holding. I think that a clear definition should be given of what are considered to be dilapidations. If it was possible to draw up a schedule of improvements in the case of the Agricultural Holdings Act, would it not be possible to have a similar schedule setting out dilapidations in this Act? I apologise for having asked these questions of my right hon. Friend, but, as I said before, they have been brought to my notice by farmers. I can assure my right hon. Friend I have not asked them with a view to complicating his task at all; on the contrary, I have rather done so with the object of assisting him. Speaking generally, I believe this Agricultural Bill has the whole-hearted support of all classes interested in the industry of agriculture generally. As far as my Division is concerned I have not received a single complaint against it. My Division is a purely agricultural constituency, and not a single complaint has come from a landlord, a tenant-owner, a tenant or the Agricultural Workers' Union.
  I appeal with all sincerity to hon. Members who claim to represent Labour in this House to support this Bill. There is no doubt at all that under the Corn Production Act agricultural labourers have benefited a great deal. In 1914 the average wage of agricultural workers in this country was 18s. a week. In 1917 the minimum wage was 25s. a week. Twelve months later it was 30s. a week. In 1919 it was 36s. 6d. a week, and in February, 1920, it was 42s. Now there

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  is a rumour afoot that it will shortly be 46s. 6d. a week. It must not be overlooked that during this period the hours of work have decreased from 58 per week to an average of 49 and one-third. That proves quite clearly that under the Corn Production Act agricultural workers have gained a lot. I am quite certain that the farmers do not in any way object to high wages for the workers, and that all they want is to be assured that they on their side are going to be protected. I appeal to all members of the Labour party in this House to support this Bill on that ground, and I repeat I am quite sure that the farmers will not mind these high wages as long as they themselves are protected.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: I am sure that the House listened with the greatest interest and approval to the speech delivered by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert), who made some very pertinent remarks upon the Bill. I gather the right hon. Gentleman took the same attitude as most people who are interested in agriculture. They think the Bill is devised with the best motives, and that the general principles on which it is drafted, so far as they go, are sound, but that it does not go nearly far enough in many directions, and in detail requires considerable amendment. The first remark I should like to make, and I think it lies at the root of the whole matter, is that this Bill is a Bill which is not introduced in the interest of agriculture as such. The words of my right hon. Friend in introducing the Bill were that this measure was introduced,
  "in the interests generally of the consumers of this country and in the interests of our great urban population."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1920, Vol. 130, Col. 93.]
  5.0 P.M.
  We cannot insist too much upon that being clearly understood, because there is still an impression abroad in the country that this Bill is demanded by and designed for the particular interests of agriculture. That is not so. The Bill has been introduced, as my right hon. Friend said, in the interests of the great urban population and of the consumers. It is to increase production. I, too, as well as my right hon. Friend, read the article in the leading newspaper to which he referred. But I did not draw quite the same conclusion as he did from it, because I noticed one very
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  great difference, namely, that in the case of corn, as we are all aware, the nation and the country very much desire to increase production, but I am not quite sure that the same incentive existed in the case of Lord Northcliffe's newspaper; otherwise, I think, the analogy was an excellent one. The country wants more production, and that is why the Government are introducing this Bill. Why is it that we are not producing as much as the country wants, and at any rate a great deal more than we are? It is a truism to assert that when prices were low agriculture was left to itself to fare as it best could, and with low prices and heavy burdens farming became quite unremunerative. Everybody knows that is the reason. Rather on that principle I remember a very well-known phrase used here by Mr. Birrell which attracted a good deal of attention at the time. That right hon. Gentleman said, "Minorities must suffer." I am afraid that is true. I listened with very great interest to what my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Seddon) said. I listened with great interest to his speech, because it came from one who represents a large urban population, who desires to see increased production, and who also desires that the whole urban population should realise that it ought itself to be prepared to make sacrifices in order to obtain that increased production. That is the opinion of many thinking men. But after 30 years' experience I am afraid it is still unattained, and I do not believe, if you look at the play of political forces, if you look even at the quotation given by my right hon. Friend opposite from the Minority Report of the Royal Commission, who did, so to speak, represent those urban populations, that they are prepared to make sacrifices in the form of guaranteed prices. My hon. Friend believes, as I do, that it would be worth the while of those urban populations to make those sacrifices in order to get the corn grown at home, but does he really think in his heart of hearts that, if prices fell well below the minimum, if ample cheap food could be obtained from abroad as required, those urban populations would still be willing, under those circumstances, to tax themselves and pay minimum prices far above the value? Does he really think they would be prepared to go on doing that?
  Mr. JESSON: As an insurance.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: I am aware of the reason for it, and we all agree that it would be wise, but does my hon. Friend think it would be done?
  Mr. JESSON: Educate them up to it.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: Even the War has not done that, as is absolutely proved by the Minority Report of the Commission; and in this connection I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) has come into the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) said that a period of four years was ludicrous; the guarantee ought to be for 20 years. He told the House that he did not claim to represent any party, but my right hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) sitting by his side does, I believe, claim to represent and to belong to a party in this House which has great ambition to govern this country in the future, and he spoke for them. He said that the guaranteed prices will probably be withdrawn under the four years' clause when the emergency conditions cease.
  Mr. LAMBERT: No; I said if this House did not want to go on with them. The point I emphasised was that the Bill gives power to this House to terminate the guarantees at four years' notice.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: I took down my right hon. Friend's words, but I accept his qualification that it would only be done if this House wanted to do it. His attitude, however, was that it would be extremely probable that these guarantees would be withdrawn when the emergency ceased, and that is exactly my point. As long as there is an emergency, this great industrial community, in its own interest, is prepared to ask agriculture to increase production; but when that emergency passes, and when ample food is obtainable from abroad, what guarantee have we? With the instances before us of my right hon. Friend's words, of the Report of the Royal Commission, of the attitude of the Labour party, of every indication we can get, what possible hope can there be that we can really expect that this industrial country will make sacrifices in the direction of lightening burdens or
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  of paying high guaranteed prices in order to maintain food production in this country? I am quite sure that that is a broken reed for us to count upon, and we had better face it. Nobody can believe more strongly than I do in the justice and the soundness of the argument used by my hon. Friend (Mr. Seddon), but I do not believe that we can count upon it, and we must expect something different. This community at the present moment realises that it wants more food. It wants agriculture to set to work to produce that food, and it wants to legislate in order to enable it to do so. I suggest that this Bill, by itself, is quite inadequate for that purpose. That is not condemning the Bill, because many of the things that have to be done are outside the ambit of this Bill altogther, and could not be included in it. I say, however, that you have to go very much further than this Bill goes. Taking it as far as it goes within its limited orbit, it proposes three main things—guaranteed prices, improved forms of production, and better security for the tenant. It is not only a question whether or not we are likely to get the industrial community to act in the manner I have been discussing, but whether we can make the agricultural community believe that they will do so, and give them sufficient confidence in that belief to induce them to spend their capital and their brains on putting land under the plough which is not under the plough now.
  Have they ever had any experience of this industrial majority doing anything for them in a direction which involves a sacrifice to themselves? Have they ever had a minimum price? They have not, but they have a maximum price. When the prices were at the bottom level, when farmers were being ruined, when landlords and labourers were receiving either no rent or very little rent and starvation wages, did they get any minimum price then? Was any notice taken of them? They have a right now to say, "When prices were low we had to stand the shot; when prices are high we ought to have the advantage." But does the nation say that? No. In the interests of the industrial majority, when prices are high, a maximum price is imposed upon agriculture. I am not throwing stones at the industrial majority; I am not finding fault with them. It is human nature, and we

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  have to face it The majority will always be persuaded to act in its own interest as far as it sees it. But what can we expect the agricultural community to do under maximum prices now, without minimum prices when times are bad, and when they know, from what the right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Bill, said that it is not introduced in their interests at all, but in an emergency and because the Minister of Agriculture, as he told the country a few days ago, expects a famine in corn? The industrial majority wants corn, and therefore they bring in this Bill. There has been plenty said, but I canot recall that a single thing has been done on any considerable scale to induce agriculture to believe that the industrial majority will ever realise its responsibilities, and the sacrifices that must be made by it, and not only by agriculture, if increased production is desired in this country.
  Those three items which I have mentioned, I accept in principle. I accept the guaranteed price in principle; I accept better cultivation, as to which I will say a word later; and I also accept better security for the tenant farmer's capital. The guarantees introduce what is, to my mind, the best feature in this Bill, and, if they were put on a different footing, something which would do more than any other one thing could do to secure permanency and confidence. I agree with my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Lambert) that this guaranteed price is so indefinite that it will produce no confidence. We do not know what figures it is based upon, nor even what wages it is based upon, nor whether hours as well as wages are going to be taken into account. I take it that, when this figure of 68s. was fixed, the number of hours being worked for a wage of approximately 32s. or 33s. was 56 per week. Now £2 2s. a week is being paid for 50 hours. The proper way would be to consider what it would cost now to get the same 56 hours' work which was obtained for 33s. in 1919. We do not know whether that was the basis, but I hope it was.
  Sir F. BANBURY: It is no use unless it is in the Bill.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: There is nothing in the Bill which shows us that. We do not know what items of cost are going to be taken into account. We see that three gentlemen are appointed to settle this
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  price, but we notice that only one of them is appointed by three agricultural Departments jointly, and that the other two are appointed, one by the Board of Trade, and the other by the Treasury. Neither of these two Departments is interested in keeping up agricultural prices, but both are interested in keeping them down. It has been suggested to me by the representative of a large number of farmers that the three agricultural Departments should each appoint one Commissioner, so that there would be an agricultural majority on the Commission instead of a majority against agriculture. Although the minimum prices are themselves indefinite, however, they do contain a germ, and I believe that if this Bill were amended in that sense we might get something of value. If, instead of this indefinite minimum price, we had a real sliding scale of wages and prices, it would do more to secure permanency than any other thing that could possibly be done for agriculture. At the present time this minimum price is made the foundation and excuse for all kinds of burdens which are put upon agriculture. It must have its production controlled; it must pay whatever wage is laid down by the Wages Board, which is of an industrial character at present, and is not agricultural at all; and it must put up with whatever control is imposed upon cultivation. It is said that that is all perfectly fair, because agriculture has been given a minimum price. But has anyone ever got one farthing out of a minimum price? The minimum price has to be imagined; the other things are grim realities which are forced upon the farmer to-day, and the farmer's position is that he has to meet a maximum price. That is the answer to the question asked by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert) as to why the railway porter should get the 67s. which he hopes he will get, when the agricultural labourer, who is a more skilled and, at any rate, an equally deserving man, has to put up with 42s. It is simply because the State is subsidising the railways to enable them to pay that wage, whereas the State is imposing a maximum price upon the farmer and preventing him from getting the money which he would otherwise naturally get to pay a higher wage. It is the State in both cases. The State is finding the money for the railways and pinching the money from the farmer. The farmer is as willing

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  as the railway companies are to pay 67s. if the State will allow him to get the natural price for his corn. The railways were getting the natural fares, and now they are up 50 per cent., and we are told they are going to be put up another 40 per cent., while, besides that, a big subsidy is to be found to pay these wages. Give similar conditions to the farmer and he will pay 67s. with the greatest pleasure. The position now is that the minimum price is absolutely valueless to the farmer; it will not give him a sixpence. No one can suggest that the farmer is gaining any ability to pay one penny of wage through the minimum price. He has to take his chance in the market. He is not left free to settle the wages of his own labourers; he has the wages imposed upon him by the Wages Board, and the Wages Board cannot and ought not to leave out of account, when they are considering these questions, the porter's wage and the industrial wage, and they say, and we all say, why should the agricultural labourer be put off with 42s. when the porter is to get 67s.? Therefore they try to split the difference, and they go on putting up the agricultural labourer's wage, but not a farthing is given to the farmer to help him to pay it, and the consequence is that even with the present wages in large areas of poor land there is not the money to pay that wage, and there will not be the money to pay it when the extra 4s. is put on, and what must happen—and nothing else can happen—is that the farmers who cannot pay that wage will discharge the men, the land will go out of cultivation, and the men will have no employment.
  That is the result of opposing forces. The farmer is helpless. When we have to fight Nature and natural forces we do so with good courage, because Nature imposes no limitation upon any man's brains, and does not put a man in prison and impose penalties on him when he does his best under the conditions in which he finds himself. We are tied and bound. A man cannot do as he wishes. He is not free to make a bargain with his man, but he has a Board outside which has to do this under conditions pressing in two opposing directions. It imposes an average wage in average conditions which can be, and ought to be, paid by many farmers who can afford to pay it
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  with good land, but which with poor land cannot be paid, and, therefore, it creates impossible conditions, and then a Bill like this is introduced which is supposed to put things right. it will not put things right, and the only thing in the Bill which can be of real permanent help will be if the Government will amend this first part of the Bill, which imposes a maximum price in the future, and will make it into a real, operative sliding scale between wages and prices which will operate now and at once, and under which they will be interdependent, and under which the farmer will know that if the Wages Board here and now puts up wages, automatically here and now the price that he receives for his produce will be raised. That is the only way. My right hon. Friend will get a much better element of permanency there than he will with a twenty years' guarantee, which some future Parliament might upset, and which you cannot possibly prevent it doing. I feel very deeply on these questions. When one has spent one's whole life in struggling to keep poor land under cultivation and keep people employed upon it, and do one's duty upon it, a Bill like this comes very near one's heart. I want to reinforce what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Acland) said about barley. Barley ought certainly to be put in if there is to be a sliding scale of prices, and it ought to be most carefully considered in Committee how far other things besides barley ought or ought not to be included. The matter should not be argued now. It is obviously a Committee point which requires the closest and most careful examination.
  I come now to compulsory production. Very large powers are given to the county committees. I cannot add anything and I could not put it half so well as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) has put it. Taking what he said as the position and what the farmer will feel as to his liability to interference from some outside official body, it behoves us, at any rate, to take the very greatest care, if we are to give these powers, as to who is to exercise them, and how they are to be given. My right hon. Friend has done his very best in the previous Bill to create a new kind of agricultural committee which will be appointed partly by his Department and partly by the county councils to whom

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  he proposes to entrust these powers, and he has put in the further safeguard that members of these committees should all have practical knowledge of agriculture. On the face of it, that is a very desirable thing; but can he enforce it? Where does he stand. This child is hardly born, and it is in its teething troubles already. I have the particulars of a case where one county council has appointed four members to an agricultural committee to carry out this Bill. The Board was of opinion that those four members, although otherwise admirably qualified, no doubt, had not got the agricultural experience which he has in mind, and which we all think, at any rate, is desirable if you are to decide questions of how land ought to be cultivated. You must know one crop from another. The Board of Agriculture communicated with the county council and told them they thought these members had not the necessary experience. The county council, after considering the matter, said that, in their opinion, no more suitable members could be found, and they adhered to their decision that these four were to be the gentlemen appointed. That is the kind of thing that happened, and I think these powers either ought not to be given at all, or ought to be given to some body which can do better than the farmer will do if he is left alone, and whether such a body can be found is extremely doubtful. In any case, whatever body is appointed, to whomsoever these powers are given, I have the strongest objections to powers which are to be taken, not only to see that land is cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry, but as to the kind of cropping and the system of cultivation which is adopted. I most strongly protest against that.
  It is obviously impossible that a man can cultivate his land to any advantage when he is liable to interference and to be told that he is not growing the right kind of crop and that he ought to grow more or less of some particular crop notwithstanding that he might be farming admirably according to his own system. Everyone has fads. We have only to go into any rural area. For instance, I know a case where a local sanitary inspector said every ash-bin in a cottage was to have a cover, and everyone had to go to the expense of putting on a
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  cover. The next inspector said no ash-bin ought to have a cover, and they all had to be taken off again. All these authorities will be swayed by some secretary or official. They cannot give the time to it. They are not paid. In the nature of things you will have in most cases some permanent officer who will keep their records and will really direct and guide their policy, and is his particular fad or fancy to be reflected in the method of cultivation all through the district, or is it to be left to those who are really responsible? That is a wholly different matter from good husbandry. Let a man choose his own system, and if you can find the right kind of authority I should be perfectly willing. The landlord now no longer has the power he used to have to see that the land is properly cultivated according to the covenants, and where the tenant does not carry his duty out, I quite agree there ought in the interests of the nation to be someone who will be able to go down and say, "Your land is foul; your ditches and drains are not properly cleaned out; your fences are untidy; your are harbouring vermin and weeds and that must be altered." I disagree most strongly with the prosecutions and penalties which are to be enforced. It is ridiculous to make people criminals. In nearly every Bill that is introduced some new offence is created by which people are made criminals with no earthly object. Do you want to make criminals or do you want to have the land clean? If you want to have the land clean it is perfectly simple. Do as they do in the Colonies, where there is some common-sense. If a man grows weeds and thistles, if he does not clean out his drains and injures his neighbours they order him to do it If he does not do it they do it for him and charge him. That is the commonsense thing to do. If my right hon. Friend takes power to do that, that is all he wants. He does not want to have people into the police court and make them criminals because they have not cut their thistles. All this interference is unnecessary.
  Part 2 of the Bill purports to give security to the tenant farmer. I am not quite sure whether he will regard the additional securities that he gets under Part 2 as compensation for the insecurity which he may think he is going to get under the Cultivation Clauses of Part 1.

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  He will look at the matter as a whole, and I am not sure that he will not be more afraid of being interfered with by officials than of being interfered with by the landlord in a good many cases. But putting that aside, the whole point was security. We all know my right hon. Friend's heart is in the business. He has devoted himself to agriculture, and there is no one in whom we have greater confidence. He is a very honest man too. His honesty prevented him from saying something which I think many a man in his position would have thought it necessary to say. When speaking of security he said, "The key-note of this Bill is security. The farmer is to be secured by guaranteed prices; the labourer is to be secured by the Wages Board; the State is to be secured by good cultivation, and the farmer is to be secured by getting a second form of security under Part 2 of the Bill." He did not say a word about the owner of the land getting any additional security whatever. He said, "All the parties concerned," and he enumerated them as I have read them. A less honest man would have attempted to say, "Yes, the owner is getting some little security through the Clause which enables a local authority to enforce better cultivation." He did not suggest that. He knows perfectly well that it would be an absurdity to suggest it; but many a man in his position would have attempted to do so.
  He used one phrase about the landowner, and that also was absolutely accurate and honest. When he was discussing the necessity for the introduction of the Bill, and for Part 2 of the Bill, he gave as the main ground for it that landlords under present conditions find it impossible to make both ends meet. The real cause of the insecurity is the sales of land. It would not be proper for me as a landlord to stand up and say what the reputation of the old type of landlord in this country is, but the opinions which have been expressed in the House have paid a tribute to the way they have managed their properties, and it comes very much better from them than from me. I am sure any of us who heard or have read what has been said, and the sympathy which has been expressed, value it most highly. The whole of this tenant farmer's insecurity is rightly attributed by my right hon. Friend to the fact that the landlord can no longer make both ends meet. That is the root of the
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  trouble. Normally, when you are going to try to remedy an evil you go to the root of it, and try to eradicate it, but in this case I am afraid it is impossible to do so. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman or the Government for not trying to cure this evil by maintaining the old system in agriculture of large estates intelligently managed for the benefit, as far as possible, of the people. You cannot restore that; I realise that it is quite impossible; but I think the elements of the situation ought to be realised, and that no more should be done than need be done to destroy that particular security which can be maintained, where the tenants are happily living under such conditions to-day, and which govern a very considerable area of this country. This Bill requires some alteration from that point of view.
  I will give some figures in regard to a particular farm which show the relative position as to the different interests in the land now. I had to look into the figures of this farm of 400 acres of poor land, which is typical of thousands of other farms. This farm is let at a rental of £300 a year with the shooting, so that there is no sporting interest brought into it. The tithe is £127 at present value. There is a small fee farm rent and land tax which brings the total outgoing to £150, leaving the landlord £150 receipts after paying these sums. Out of this amount £50 at least will be required—that is, one sixth of the total rent—for repairs and maintenance, leaving him £100, of which the State will take anything from £30 to £50 in Income Tax, leaving him £50 or £70 according to the tax which is levied upon him as his actual receipts during one year from that farm. The State and the local authority in the matter of public burdens take in rates and taxes almost exactly £200. The tenant, we will assume, gets the £600 which the Income Tax Act credits him with. That is twice the rent. I cannot say whether he does get that or not. The labour on that farm cost somewhere between £1,200 and £1,500 a year. Let us see how the various interests stand. There is between £50 and £70 for the landlord; there is £600 for the tenant; there is £127 for the tithe owner, and there is £1,200 or £1,500 for labour, and £200 to meet the burdens of the State. Who can wonder when land has to be sold? What is the use of getting up in

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  this House and telling a man who owns a farm like that that he has to make improvements? Where is the money to come from to make the improvements? It cannot be done. That is why sales take place.
  Let us follow this matter further, for this is a very interesting case. In regard to this farm, there is an offer to buy at the price of £9,500. It may be said, "Here is the case of a man who is only getting £50 or £70 profit out of his farm, and he is offered £9,500 for the farm. That is a plum." What does that £9,500 represent? On that farm there is a very good farm-house, excellent cottages in a very good state of repair, and there is an excellent set of farm buildings. The man who wants to buy the farm wants to occupy it himself. If he has to put up these farm buildings, the house and the cottages, he could not do it for less than £12,000 or £13,000 at the least. He is going to pay £9,500 for what would cost £12,000 or £13,000. What is the owner to get? He will get £2,000 or £3,000 less than it would cost to equip the farm, and there is not one single penny for the land. That is an actual case. The offer is there, the farm is there, the figures are there, and they can be verified by anyone who likes. I give this as an illustration of what is the position on poor land. There is endless variety. My hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Royce) can give figures different in every respect in connection with farms in the rich district which he represents, and which I know very well. You have the two extremes, and there is everything between.
  If you want increased production, it is not the rich land you have to consider so much as the poor land. Rich land will always be cultivated. There is a big margin of profit over and above the cost of cultivation. The curse of poor land is, that when the cost of cultivation is high there is no margin of profit to pay for it. If you can grow eight sacks of wheat on an acre, you can afford to spend seven sacks in growing it, and have a good profit on the odd quarter at present prices. When we are dealing with land which will only produce seven sacks we cut our coat according to our cloth, and only spend six sacks on it, and we have managed to keep a contented population on the land all through the bad time. Now the State says, "You will be a
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  criminal and will be prosecuted if you do not spend seven sacks in cultivating the land." Whether or not the land can produce seven sacks. That means that the man who cannot grow seven sacks cannot cultivate the land. He is not left to make the best use of his opportunities. He is made by law to spend seven sacks whether he can get seven sacks from the land or not, and that means that where his produce is below seven sacks that land will go out of cultivation. I have had to throw land out of cultivation which is capable of growing food, but is not growing food to-day. All through the bad time of the eighties and nineties I farmed that land, but it cannot be cultivated now because the State say I have to spend seven sacks in cultivating that land. Therefore, at the behest of the State, I have to throw that land out of cultivation, however much food it might be capable of producing.
  Under this Bill the tenant is to have security by being given much fuller compensation when he leaves a farm. I agree in principle, but I think this is a Clause which wants most careful handling. I make one root criticism upon it, and that is that the year's rent penalty where notice is given to the tenant consistently with reasons of good estate management is an impossible proposition. I am not speaking from the landlords' point of view but from the national point of view. In this respect my right hon. Friend has very largely departed from the recommendations of the Selborne Committee. He claims that in introducing the Bill he is following very closely the recommendations of the Selborne Committee. but the Committee in this respect did not recommend, as the Bill does, that one year's rent should be the penalty for recovering possession for reasons consistent with good estate management, and four years for capricious eviction. What it recommended was one year where it is capricious, which is an absolutely different proposition. After what has happened this Session I cannot help contrasting the national attitude when its own pocket is in question, and its attitude when the pocket of the landlord is in question. The State has found it necessary to resume control of a good deal of the land which was in the hands of the owner. It was taken from the owner through no fault of his own, and when he was very anxious to keep it. Under the existing law 10

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  per cent. penalty was allowed where land was taken through no fault of the owner. We have recently passed legislation on this subject. Everybody is agreed that the penalty is to cease; but when the State wishes to take land from the owner, who is thereby deprived of a large measure of security in the land, it has to pay no compensation for disturbance at all. It has to pay not one penny more than the actual value of the land, and in addition to that the owner has to be saddled with considerable risks and expense. Where the tenant farmer is given notice it is not the State, but the landowner, who has to pay. The State says it is a wicked thing to interfere with the security of the tenant, and it now proposes to impose a new penalty of one year's rent on any owner who resumes possession of his own land for reasons perfectly consistent with estate management. I do not think that principle can be insisted upon. I am afraid we have rather done with justice now, and that it is expediency and not justice.
  It is the commonest thing on any considerable estate, or on any estate where there is any considerable population in the neighbourhood, for applications for land to be made to the owner of any large farm near to these large centres of population, and he has to go to the tenant farmer constantly and ask him to give up a field or part of a field and to divide it among several small men or put it into allotments for the benefit of the community as a whole. I own land in a growing district, and it is a matter of monthly almost weekly occurrence for someone to come to me or my agent and say, "Can you let me have two acres of land"? One man may want three acres. Somebody else wants an allotment. The local authority wants other land. That has been going on for 20 or 30 years, and there has never been any friction. There has been no trouble. There has not been one farthing of expense in bringing in the county council, or any officials to settle differences between one man and another. I have had the power to resume possession of the land, and with that power behind me I have gone to the tenant whose goodwill has been perfect and I have said, "Here are a dozen or 20 men who want this field. Can we not arrange it?" Everybody has been satisfied, and everything has gone on smoothly. But it cannot go on smoothly and the
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  thing cannot be done if every time a landlord, not in his own interests but in the interests of the community has to take land from a tenant he is penalised. It costs him a great deal of trouble, because instead of getting one lump sum from one large tenant he has to get rents from perhaps 30. In my own case, hundreds of small rents have to be got from hundreds of small occupiers. It is much better for the landowner from the financial point of view to get the rent from one tenant. Now if he goes to his tenant and tries, without the power behind him, to get the tenant to give up a piece of land, he will have to pay one year's rent as penalty for taking the land. That is absolutely wrong, and clearly against the interests of the whole community. What will happen when the local authority or the Government come and want the land? What will be the position then? I take it under this Bill that, if the local authority takes the land, they will have to pay the year's rent too. Clearly, when the valuer comes down to value the land for the local authority he may say, "This is land which is worth 20 years' purchase." But if we have to take land under the circumstances I have related, we shall have to pay one year's fine to the tenant; therefore, instead of the land being worth 20 years' purchase, it is only worth 19 years' purchase, and the valuer will take it at 19 years' purchase instead of 20. So that the man who has land compulsorily taken from him will have to be fined one year's rent, because somebody, the State, wants the land. That is an absolutely intolerable state of things, and I suggest that the year's rent has to go.
  I thoroughly agree with the suggestion about the Evesham custom. I congratulate my hon. Friend below me on representing a constituency where there is so much common sense shown. It is grossly unfair that a man should be compelled to let his land for market gardening, to have large sums spent upon it, and then if it happens to fail and no other tenant can be secured, that he should be made to recoup the whole expense of the outgoing tenant. But if the outgoing tenant can find another man to come in and take over the place, that should be done, but I desire only one safeguard—that this power ought not to be conferred upon anybody where the land is in a developing neighbourhood. Where development is going on, where the landlord may have to

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  resume possession of the land for some other purpose of development, he ought to be allowed to make the condition in letting the land that it is not to be used for market gardening as, in view of the probability of its being required for some other purpose as development land or otherwise, that money would be wasted. Clause 17 I think wants careful watching. It is a rather serious matter that these costs of compensation should be made a first charge on the land. You are already driving land into the market and now you are telling the mortgagee that you are creating a fresh charge of indefinite amount, possibly a very large amount, which is to be prior to his charge. Therefore you are giving the landowner no additional security, but you are going a long way to drive him out of the security which he already possesses.
  Now as to the position of the labourer. The labourer is clearly the most important and indispensable of the people in the cultivation of the land. The owner can transfer his capital elsewhere. He is doing so. He is selling land because it does not pay, but the land is not cultivated by him, and cultivation does not cease because that land is sold. The occupier can buy his farm or somebody may be found to take his place. It has been suggested that the land should be nationalised. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. W. R. Smith) began his speech, as in duty bound, by recommending the nationalisation of the land, but when he got into his subject, and was dealing with it from the experience which he had gathered about agricultural land, he resented greatly the interference of officials. I think that the latter was really his mind in representing the facts. If there is one thing which cannot be nationalised and must be the result of individual effort it is the cultivation of the land. Therefore I am afraid that nationalisation is hopeless, but even more dangerous to the labourer and everybody else is the kind of semi-nationalisation which we have at the present time, because the position at present is the nation claims the right to interfere and dictate as to how land should be cultivated, what wages should be paid, and what price should be paid, but it takes none of the responsibility of finding the capital which is necessary to develop the land and which by its action it is drying up.
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  The land, whatever may be done by the new owner and whatever may be the position of the tenant cannot be cultivated without labour and I resent very much the statements, which are so commonly made, that before the War the labourer was disregarded, badly treated and wholly neglected by those who were interested in the land. The statement does not agree with what is common knowledge, namely: that many labourers say that they would rather go back to pre-War days than be where they are now with Wages Boards and everything else which they have got. So far as agricultural land is concerned, it has been the custom with landlords, in most cases at any rate, to look upon the requirements of the estate as coming in priority to their own interests. Where cottages were required they have always been provided, and, though wages were low, in other respects the conditions in which agricultural labourers lived, particularly on well-managed estates, compared most favourably with the conditions in which people were living in towns before the War. Anyone who cares to look into the facts will see that we have a record of which we are not ashamed in the matter of housing and dealing with the interests of the agricultural labourer. But now we have an enormous increase in the cost of living and huge increases in industrial wages, nobody would be more willing than farmers and landowners in this country to see the labourer receiving as good a wage as is paid on the railways or in any other great industry in this country, but that cannot be done unless the money is there to enable it to be paid and on the poor land, at any rate, any attempt to increase wages further until money is provided out of which those wages can be paid and until the employer is put into a position to pay them, will not result in larger wages but will only result in unemployment.
  Responsibility must be taken by the Labour party in this matter. They are going round country districts telling the labourer one thing which is perfectly true, that he deserves better wages. That we are all agreed They are also telling him, which is not, at any rate, universally true, that the farmer is making large sums of money and can easily afford to pay an industrial wage. The hon. Member for Wellingborough said that farmers would not produce accounts. Only about a fort-

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  night ago one of the leading labour organisers came down to my district at Ipswich and made speeches of this character, and enlarged upon the enormous sums of money which farmers made and how easily they could pay higher wages. I wrote him a considered letter and gave him figures showing the position in my district, and offered to place at his disposal my farming accounts for 30 years, which he might put before anybody he liked for investigation and that he could draw for himself any conclusions which he liked, and he has not even answered my letter, and yet since that letter was written pamphlets have been circulated all round the country making exactly similar statements. I tell that gentleman and his colleagues that they are taking a grave responsibility on on themselves. I tell them that on the poor land the money is not there, and cannot be there in present conditions, to pay those increased wages. I invite them to examine those accounts for themselves, to co-operate with the farmers in trying to get better wages for the labourers and in producing the money with which they are to be paid. We are as desirous as they are to give the labourer the wage to which he is entitled, but we have got a responsibility which they have not got, and it is an important one. We have got to find the money. They have only got to find words. It is much easier to find words than money, but if we are to have even the same amount of cultivation as we have now, I tell those who are agitating among the agricultural labourers in the poor land districts, that the result of that agitation, with or without this Bill, will not be more corn, but less corn and trouble of which no man can see the end.
  Major COLFOX: It is with great trepidation that I rise to address the House this evening for the first time on a subject which everyone must admit is a very difficult one to tackle, but it is one which is of very great importance both to the industry of agriculture and to the nation as a whole. I consider that as representing a purely agricultural constituency it is my duty to say how cordially we welcome the introduction of this Bill, but I think it a very great pity that the Government should not have introduced this Bill long before now. At the time of the last General Election the rather vague announcement
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  of the Government's agricultural policy was welcomed very much by agriculturists as showing that our greatest industry was not going to be overlooked in the general scheme of reconstruction, and then later when the Prime Minister made his speech at the Caxton Hall, last November I think it was, he again raised the hopes of the agricultural industry, but yet it has taken all these months for the policy of the Government to materialise in the form of this Bill. Now we know that the Government have decided that the cries of the industrial population demanding cheap food are not going to be allowed entirely to drown the just demands of the farmers, who assert that the price of the things which they have to produce must bear some definite relation to the cost of production. The Corn Production Act purported to establish this relation between cost and price, but since the passing of that Act costs have risen considerably, and the returns of the industry have not risen in the same relative scale. One of the great items in the cost of production is the wages bill. No one connected with the industry would ever grudge a fair wage, but still it does need to be emphasised, as this Bill does emphasise it, that the only fund from which wages can be paid is the fund which is obtained by the farmer when he sells his produce. Therefore, the cost of production, wages, and the price of produce are all inter-dependent.
  6.0 P.M.
  It has been shown all through that it is necessary that the farmer should have greater security for the capital which he has invested in this business. The necessity for this has been emphasised particularly of late by the sales of land and the speculative buying all through the country. It has also been shown to be necessary that we should maintain a high standard of husbandry throughout the country. The Bill attempts to meet all these objects. I welcome the provision for protecting the improvements carried out by the outlay of the tenant, and also the provisions for compensation where a specially high standard of farming has been adopted continuously. This must help the farmer in thinking that he has security for his capital. I welcome also that part of the Bill which compels the occupier to keep in order his fences and ditches and hedges and gates, and to

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  destroy weeds on his holding. All of us know many cases where a man is considerably injured by the neglect of such things on the part of his neighbours. It has been said that this is a Bill promoted simply in the interests of tenant farmers. Surely that is not the case. So far as the landlords are concerned, the Bill contains very few, if any, provisions which are not already observed by good landlords. If a man has been a good landlord and continues to be a good landlord, he has nothing to fear from this Bill. Bad landlords, certainly, do not need or deserve the sympathy of the House. The labourer has his Wages Board made a permanent institution. It is therefore wrong to say that this Bill is simply for the benefit of the tenant farmer. I would like to ask one or two tentative questions. Where the Bill speaks of repairs necessary to secure proper cultivation, does it include the proper upkeep of the labourers' cottages? That is a very important matter, affecting as it does the health and happiness of the whole countryside. Under Clause 7 a tenant who is turned out of his holding, except under certain conditions, is entitled to compensation. In his speech on Monday the Parliamentary Secretary spoke about the new class of landlords who are buying merely to sell again with vacant possession, and he said that these men had caused a great deal of damage and injustice to deserving tenant farmers. Surely the way they have caused the damage and injustice is by turning tenant farmers out of their holdings. Could not the provisions of Clause 7 be extended to cover those men who are at present under notice to quit in September? If that could be arranged it would mitigate some of the harm which is being done by these land speculators.
  If and when the guaranteed price comes to an end by an Order in Council, does the minimum wage also come to an end automatically? It seems to me that the two are absolutely dependent the one on the other, and if you remove the one you should remove the other, not because the farmer will not wish to pay the wages, but for the reason that if you remove the guarantee and pre-suppose that the price of agricultural produce falls very considerably, the labourer will not only not get his minimum wage, but he will be
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  without employment and will get no wage at all. In the interests of the labourer the minimum wage should be wiped out if and when the guaranteed price is wiped out by Order in Council. I have tried to show very briefly why I consider the principles of this Bill deserve support, and I have offered one or two very mild criticisms with very great deference. In supporting agriculture I believe we are supporting the true interests of the nation as a whole. Agriculture not only provides the food of the nation; it also provides the recruits of industrial life. Holding, as I do, that this Bill will help the agricultural industry, I maintain that it will help the nation as a whole, and that therefore it deserves support.
  Major BARNSTON: I hope the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down will not think me presumptuous if I ventured to congratulate him on the very excellent maiden speech he has delivered. As I represent a purely agricultural constituency and as practically every penny I possess comes from agricultural land, I would like to make a few remarks. We must admit that there has been a certain amount of severe criticism of some provisions of this Bill, but I believe that the agricultural community as a whole wants the Bill, and I am grateful to the Government for taking the Second Reading so soon after the Whitsuntide Recess, because I take it to mean that, however great a slaughter of the innocents there may be later on, the Government are determined to pass this Bill through all its stages this Session. The War taught us by bitter experience many things, and if there was one thing more than another that we learnt, surely it was our dangerous dependence on foreign food supplies. During the War the Minister of Agriculture, with the assistance of agricultural committees, got thousands of acres which had gone to grass put under the plough. An hon. Member speaking on Monday said that the agricultural committee had made a certain number of mistakes, and had ordered land to be ploughed which was not suitable for the purpose. I expect they did make mistakes. Does anyone suppose that when you plough up thousands of acres in every county there will not be mistakes? What was the reason for the mistakes? It was that the whole thing was done in a hurry. We had no agricultural policy. One of the advantages of this Bill in future will

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  be that we shall have a real agricultural policy. Every quarter of grain grown in this country, of course, reduces our dependence on foreign supplies, and improves the exchange. As regards the principle of the Corn Production Act, I am perfectly certain it is sound, but I must confess that I very much doubt whether the minimum price suggested is sufficient to enable the farmer to resist the temptation of putting his land back to grass. He has the memory of an experience which was not always happy, and he has also the difficulty of labour. By that I do not mean the cost of labour, because I for one very much rejoice that agricultural labourers to-day do not get the miserable pittances they received some years ago. In some counties even to-day it is very difficult to get anything like a sufficient amount of good agricultural labour.
  Exception has been taken to-day, and no doubt will be taken in Committee, to some of the powers which these agricultural committees will have. A good many farmers and a good many landowners would like to cripple those committees. As a matter of fact, I believe their powers are somewhat mitigated by this Bill. But of course they will not be the same committees—they will be the committees appointed by the Act passed by this House last Session. Although I think the powers of the committees ought to be very carefully scrutinised, yet at the same time, if you have a guaranteed minimum price, you must in justice have some guarantee that there is to be good husbandry also. I will make one or two comments on the second part of the Bill dealing with security of tenure. In agriculture you want three kinds of security. First, you want to secure the farmer from a hard a rapacious landlord. Secondly, you want to secure the landowner from a rotten farmer; and, thirdly, you want to secure the State from the possible slackness of an indifferent farmer. Most people will agree that in these days there is no room for an indifferent landowner or a bad farmer. I believe we are giving protection to the farmer by giving protection to the capital he has placed in the land.
  Under Clause 7 there can in future be reasonable increases or decreases of rent. I do not think, as a matter of fact, that many farmers, certainly in the case of
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  the big old estates, will want to have any arbitration on the matter of rents, and those of us who know country life know perfectly well that a great many of the big old estates are very lowly rented to-day. Still, if a farmer is being rack-rented he has his chance of getting the rent made fair. As I understand this Clause, if a landowner gives notice to his tenant, not for bad farming or for breach of condition or refusal to have an adjustment of rent or for bankruptcy, that landowner will have to pay to the tenant certain compensation. I think in the interests of all agriculturists and of incoming tenants those compensations should be carefully scanned. There is a provision as to payment of compensation for unexhausted improvements, and I do not suppose that anyone will object to that or would wish that any tenant farmer who has improved his farm should not get every sixpence by which he has improved it. I thoroughly subscribe to that principle, and I remember many years ago pledging myself to such a reform. The tenant would also possibly get compensation for continuous good farming. I entirely support that, but at the same time I think it should work the other way and that there should be compensation to the landowner for continuous bad farming because after all bad farmers are like bad sailors on shore, you never meet in this world a bad farmer. I have as much acquaintance with farmers as any Member of the House, or possibly more than most Members, and I am very fond of them. I have got a property of my own, and I am a trustee of another property. Whenever I talk to any farmer he always tells me, "When I took this farm it was a desert, but by my own exertions I have converted it into a garden." With regard to compensation for capricious eviction I think that is a case which very seldom occurs and no reasonable man would take any exception to a farmer getting three or four years' extra compensation if the notice was served in a capricious way.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Pretyman) on the question of the year's rent, and I think that should be left to the discretion of the arbitrator. After all, landlords very often sell only because they cannot carry on. I remember a case near my own home of an estate with a name very much respected there and very much respected here, that is the Glad-

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  stone estate. A few years ago the trustees of that estate had to sell their property, and they did what I thought was an exceedingly wise thing. They sent a statement to all their tenants explaining exactly their charges and their outgoings, and expressing regret that the time had come when they could not carry on. We must also remember that a tenant on his side, if he sees a better farm or what he considers to be a more commodious and prosperous place, can go at the end of a year's notice. Therefore I think the question of this year's rent should be left to the discretion of the arbitrator. One can conceive cases in which it would be perfectly fair to give the year's rent. Take, for instance, the case of a man who takes a farm at a somewhat high rent and that the farm is what we call in Cheshire a very rough place. He spends money and an amount of time and energy on it, and the farm is then suddenly sold and he cannot buy it. In a case of that sort it might be quite fair for the arbitrator to give him a year's rent. Take the other case of a man who has been on one of the old estates and has had a cheap farm for a great number of years. He is getting on in life and would probably soon retire. In many of these estates, what has happened has been that with every acre of land the man has been given a present owing to the rent. In that instance, is the man to have an additional year's rent simply because he has to leave, when in a year or two he would have left in the ordinary course? Clause 14 deals with the constitution of the panel of arbitrators, and the farmers are very properly represented by the National Farmers' Union, but there is no direct representative of the landlords. I would suggest that possibly the Land Agents' Society or some such body should represent the landowners. There is one point which is not touched on by the Bill, and that is as to the tenant who buys his farm in open auction. I have always felt it would be fairer and more satisfactory if the compensation was agreed on before the auction took place, and then he should know exactly where he stood, and how much compensation he was going to get. For my part, I warmly approve of the main features of the Bill. No doubt, in details it will have to be altered, and possibly farmers themselves would differ on it. I believe the Bill is an honest
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  desire and a sound attempt to encourage farmers. I believe it is a sound attempt to enable us to grow more wheat in this country, and that it will encourage the farmers of the country to farm on a high standard of cultivation, and in that way improve agriculture, which is to-day not only our greatest industry, but the industry upon which all others depend.
  Sir ROBERT THOMAS: I do not propose to address the House as a farmer, which I am, or as a landlord, which I also am, but as the representative here of the Welsh National Farmers' Union. I regret that the Welsh National Farmers' Union was not represented on the Royal Commission for the reason that Wales is a nation of smallholders. There are in Wales 40,000 farms under 50 acres. Wales is not a grain producing country, and you cannot legislate for and consider in a Royal Commission the case of the smallholder at the same time as that of the large farmer. In the first place, the smallholder has no accommodation on his farm for the storage of grain. That is the position in Wales, and that has been the difficulty during the years of war. When the orders for cultivation were made the Welsh smallholder, under the ploughing order, had to turn over land and grow grain. He had to sell that grain regardless of the condition of the market at the price obtainable as quickly as possible after harvesting, for the reason that he had no storage accommodation. In this Bill there is provision as to repairs to farm buildings, but there is no provision whatever for the building of granaries; and what is the use of formulating proposals for a nation of smallholder without the necessary accommodation for the storage of grain. Another reason why Welsh farmers object to this Bill is that you are forcing them to become grain growers where the climate of the country is not suitable for the growing of grain. Wales cannot grow wheat; we grow a little oats, but we cannot grow wheat to advantage. That aspect of the matter has not, I submit, been properly considered by the Royal Commission. There was one member from Wales on the Royal Commission, and I understand he signed the minority Report. If there had been a Royal Commission for Wales alone, I think it would have been found that the representatives of Wales would have been against the recommendations put forward by the right

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  hon. Gentleman. We do not want control, and we do not want prices fixed in Wales. The Welsh farmer is a thrifty individual, and he has always been able to make a little money. Therefore, we do not want any prices fixed, and We prefer to depend upon the ordinary supply and demand. We certainly do not want control with these vexatious regulations and penalties. I think there are five of them. There is a penalty for paying wages less than the minimum of £20 and £1 per day, and for not complying with notice to cultivate in the manner prescribed £20 an £1 per day, and for false statements in claiming minimum six months or £50. Regulations of that sort for smallholders who are deacons in chapels and who are men who would not willingly commit an offence absolutely bewilder and dismay them, and they cannot understand them.
  Perhaps it is not recognised, but it ought to be recognised by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who happens to be one of my constituents and who lives in Wales, that many of these Welsh farmers cannot speak the English language. I hope these numerous orders and penalties will be printed in the Welsh language, so that they may understand them at all events, but we do not want prices fixed, and we do not want control. If you are going to have these controls. let us have nationalisation and be done with it; either let us have freedom, or let us go the whole hog. According to the Bill, there are three Commissioners and another multitude of officials, of course. There is to be a Commissioner for Ireland, a Commissioner for Scotland, and a Commissioner for England, whereas there is not to be a Commissioner for Wales at all. If you are going to have all these Commissioners, why leave Wales out? Why not have a Commissioner for Wales who can speak the Welsh language and who understands the Welsh people, and not be governed by an English official and molested by an English official who knows nothing about Wales at all? And why not have a separate Wages Board for Wales? That is another important matter about which Wales is deeply concerned, but we are absolutely disregarded. We are made to do things we are not suited to do, and when we are made to do these things we are controlled by other people who know nothing at all about us, and it is really high time that
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  the Government should pay a little attention to sentiment. In Wales we are chockfull of sentiment. We cannot live without it in Wales, and, if I may respectfully say so, if a little more attention had been paid to Irish sentiment, we should not be in the difficulty with Ireland that we are in now. Welsh people are very much like Irish people; we are all Celts, and we do not like to be disregarded, and we do like attention being paid to our little fads even if they are not believed in by our Saxon friends.
  There is one thing which I will say in conclusion, and that is in regard to the question of security of tenure. I recognise under the Bill that there is to be compensation for a man who is turned out of his farm. I doubt very much whether that can be enforced, and I think a form of agreement could be contrived whereby the farmer would be done out of his compensation; but compensation will not satisfy the man in Wales who for centuries has lived on a small holding—the man who has been born, whose father was born, and whose great-grandfather was born, on a small holding. No compensation will suit that man if he has to clear out; and, therefore, I think this Bill ought to be amended in the sense that a man ought not to be turned cut of his farm unless it can be proved either that he has not paid his rent or that he has failed to cultivate his farm in a satisfactory manner. Otherwise there should be absolute security, and unless you get security, and unless you get the farmer absolutely satisfied that he is going to remain on his holding, you cannot expect him to put capital in the holding and develop the farm as he should do. This guarantee against a serious loss is really laughable. What man wants to be secured against a serious loss? If it was to secure a man for a serious profit I could understand it, but to secure a man against a serious loss, what inducement is that to any farmer to increase his production? I submit that this is trifling with a great and powerful industry, and I think that in the interests of production, of the farming community, and of the labourers, the Government had better withdraw their Bill altogether and leave well alone.
  Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: I feel sure that after the speech of the hon. Gentle-

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  man who has just sat down, his constituent, the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary, will have some hesitation in voting for him at the next election. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied with the course of this Debate. So far as I have listened to it, it has resulted in a chorus of disapproval in reference to most of the provisions of the Bill. I agree that all of us who take part in this Debate should approach it from the national standpoint. We all of us know how serious is likely to be the food situation in this country during the coming years, and it is essential that every effort should be made to increase the production of food, and it is from that standpoint that I propose to examine this Bill, and I do so with particular reference to the Scottish interests concerned. I regret, in the first instance, that there is no separate Bill for Scotland. Scottish conditions are in many instances different from those obtaining in England—Scottish customs, Scottish habits, Scottish procedure, Scottish tenure—and I venture to say that there are other Scottish Members who agree with me that we ought certainly to have had a separate Bill for Scotland. I ventured to press that myself on the Secretary for Scotland, and I believe that other Members did the same, but I am surprised that there is no Scottish representative of the Government on the Treasury Bench to-day. We have had the Lord Advocate to-day running in and out, but giving no attention to the Debate, and I suggest that it is not treating Scottish Members or the interests of Scotland with respect.
  The demands of Scottish agriculturists are different from those of English agriculturists. The last speaker pointed out that the views of the National Farmers' Union of Wales were different from those of the National Farmers' Union of England, and that is equally so in respect of Scotland. What is the most important essential to increased production? I venture to say that it is complete security of tenure to the farmer, and that is the view held by the Scottish National Union of Farmers, who were not as a body consulted, so far as I am aware, about this Bill. I venture to suggest to the Government that this Bill does not give the com-
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  plete security of tenure to the farmer that is demanded by the farmer. The right hon. Gentleman in the course of his remarks in introducing the Bill, said that the keynote of the Bill was security and that there should be complete security to the farmer, and in answer to a question that I put him in the course of his speech, he gave what were his reasons for assuming that this Bill gave the farmer complete security of tenure. The National Farmers' Union of Scotland expected complete security of tenure in this Bill, having regard to the speech that was made by the Prime Minister at the Caxton Hall on the 21st October, 1919, and if the House will permit me I will read a sentence from that speech in order to support my argument. The Prime Minister referred to cases where the farmer required special protection, and he said:
  "The first is where the farm is sold over his head to another landowner and where the new man may either want it himself or may want to sell it and make money out of it."
  He goes on to say:
  "In those cases the farmer needs protection and must get it, and therefore it is proposed that he shall be secured in his tenancy unless the land is sold either for public purposes or a case can be made that he is a bad cultivator."
  The right hon. Gentleman, the Parliamentary Secretary, referred to these particular cases in his speech in introducing the Bill, and said:
  "We are dealing with new landowners, and we are dealing with the land speculator, who does not want to cultivate at all, who wants to buy and sell again with free occupation, and that gentleman is doing a great deal of harm, and is inflicting the very gravest injustice on many most deserving tenant farmers. In that way the disturbance is capricious, and, where it is contrary to good estate management, where we should say it was thoroughly unjustifiable, in those cases the arbitrator may give, not only loss or expense directly attributable to the quitting, but as much as four years' rent in addition."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1920; Cols. 88 and 89; Vol. 130.]
  That is the security of tenure suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, but not that suggested by the Prime Minister at the Caxton Hall. The Prime Minister said quite deliberately that in that case the tenant farmer would be secured in his tenancy. Within the Bill, so far as I have been able to study it, there is not that security of tenure which, in the opinion certainly of many of us and of the

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  National Farmers' Union, is essential to good farming in Scotland. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman where the security was in that case, he replied that the security which the farmer had is first of all that most people would hesitate before turning him out, and in the second place that he could walk off with a considerable sum of money and very likely get a better farm than he had before; but not even the right hon. Gentleman would suggest that that is securing that farmer in his tenancy, and it is on that account that I submit to the House that the promise made by the Prime Minister in his Caxton Hall speech has not been fulfilled in this Bill. I venture to say that amongst the bulk of Scottish farmers there will be deep disappointment with the contents of Part 2 of this Bill. If Part 2 of the Bill had contained the real security of tenure that they were promised by the Prime Minister, there would unquestionably have been much more likelihood of increased production than under any of the provisions of Part 1 of the Bill. What is to be the effect of Part 1 in Scotland? Hon. Members have shown that it is very unlikely that any additional number of acres will be brought under the plough. So far as the poor and doubtful land in Scotland is concerned, I venture to say that this Bill will have no effect at all. It is not even logical. As has been pointed out, if wheat and oats are to be guaranteed under this Bill, why not guarantee the prices of other farming? What about sheep-breeding, or stockbreeding, or dairy-farming? If this Bill is to be logical, and particularly so far as Scotland is concerned, all these other farm products ought to be guaranteed at the same time. The right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) said that we could not count on the continuance of the guaranteed prices. If that is so, what is the use of Part 1 at all? What is the use of proceeding with a Bill which, in the view of experienced agriculturists such as the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and in the view of ex-Ministers who have spoken from this side, is in no way likely to achieve the object it sets out to do?
  Mr. PRETYMAN: I suggest that if it were converted into a sliding scale of wages and prices, it would be effective at present.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: I agree; but there is no suggestion at all in this Bill that that particular method should
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  be carried out, and I doubt very much whether it would be possible to amend the Bill in that respect. At any rate, it is not the suggestion of the Government. They have not had it in mind in framing this Bill. I venture to say that it would be much better for the Government to drop the guaranteed prices and to introduce—I am speaking so far as Scotland is concerned—a real system of security of tenure, which my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate, whom I am glad now to see sitting on that Bench, has advocated so consistently in his Division in Scotland throughout a considerable number of years. This Bill introduces an army of inspectors. They are bound to increase more and more in number every year—inspectors who would be enriching the country very much more if they were tilling the land themselves, rather than introducing and maintaining a system of control which cannot be beneficial to agriculture. The Government, I presume, intend to proceed with this Bill. So far as Scotland is concerned, there are certain Amendments which some of us will endeavour to introduce into the Bill in order to make it more acceptable and more workable than it is. I do not propose to detain the House with any reference at length to any of these Amendments, but there is one to which I think I might draw the attention of the Lord Advocate, and it is this: There is a feeling that in all cases to be settled on appeal, the Land Court should be the final court of appeal, and not the Court of Session. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take that into consideration, and that an Amendment will be put down to that effect. It is too late to ask the Government to withdraw this Bill and proceed with a simpler Bill with no system of control, but with real security of tenure. Had they done so, I feel perfectly certain that a Bill of that nature would have been received with unanimous support by the tenant farmers of Scotland, and that every effort would have been made under a Bill of that nature to increase the food production of Scotland.
  Major O'NEILL: The right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill has been made the target for a great many criticisms from all quarters of the House, and I congratulate him upon the tranquility and calm complacency with which he has

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  received them. While I am on congratulations, may I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture upon his elevation to the Irish Privy Council, which took place the other day? All of us who have the interests of Ireland at heart know what excellent work he has done in the conduct of his Department since he was appointed to it a year or so ago. I remember only last year that Members of this House interested in agriculture were getting up day after day and week after week asking when the Government's agricultural policy was going to be brought forward, and they were urging—and rightly urging—upon the Government the vital necessity of having a large and comprehensive agricultural policy for the country. The Agricultural Commission was appointed, and it is largely upon the recommendations which that Commission put forward that this Bill is based. Yet, when the Bill has come before the House, there has been heard, particularly from the agricultural experts in the House, nothing but the severest criticism, if, indeed, it has not been condemnation. I am no expert in agriculture, and I shall deal with the Bill purely from the point of view of some of its larger considerations. I am not going to refer in detail to the necessity for a Bill of this kind. As many hon. Members have stated, it was the War which proved the necessity for a comprehensive agricultural policy in this country. It was the War and the German submarines, and the fact that these submarines very nearly starved this country out of existence which make a Bill of some kind absolutely necessary and vital. I welcome, personally, the guaranteed prices and the continuance of the Agricultural Wages Board. We had a fine old conservative speech this afternoon from the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert). From beginning to end, it was redolent of the land, and I must say when I listened to it—and I listened to it with very great pleasure, and with a very great deal of agreement—I could not help thinking that it was curious that these staunch old Tory doctrines should have been put forward by a right hon. Gentleman who is a member of the Free
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  Liberal Party. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon.
  Mr. LAMBERT: I have no leader except myself.
  Major O'NEILL: I think, possibly, that that gives greater weight to any remarks he may make in this House At any rate, he did speak good old Tory principles so far as the land is concerned. And the only comments of a very advanced type which have appeared in Debate have come rather from those who belong to the old Conservative party, and who, of course, have among their number many who are experts in agriculture I, of course, am going to speak upon this Bill primarily in so far as it affects Ireland, and, before I come to a few details, I should like very strongly to remind this House of the enormous importance of Irish agriculture to the United Kingdom, when we are considering the question of whether or not this country is to remain self-supporting in any future war. Ireland is, you may say, the most powerful agricultural part of the United Kingdom, and if the country is to be self-supporting, it must largely be from the produce of the great agricultural districts in Ireland. And they did serve you well as regards agricultural produce during the War. I would warn hon. Members opposite, who are inclined sometimes to consider the question of the complete independence of Ireland with equanimity, to remember that, in any future war, quite apart from any military considerations, you will have the very vital fact, that upon the agricultural districts of Ireland the great population in the country depends to a very large extent for its food supplies. But Ireland is chiefly a cattle-producing country. Personally, if it were possible, I should like to see Ireland producing more wheat. There was a time, many years ago, when parts of Ireland were great wheat-producing districts, and where the milling industry was a great and powerful industry. I am afraid I cannot say that I think this Bill will have the effect of encouraging wheat production in Ireland. At the same time, by giving these guarantees, it will, I hope, to a certain extent lead to greater tillage in that country, and I cannot see why there should not be more production of wheat in Ireland.
  7.0 P.M.
  There is one point to which I should like to draw my right hon. Friend's

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  attention, and that is with regard to guaranteed prices so far as they affect Ireland. I think it is the fact that prices of agricultural produce in Ireland are always somewhat lower as quoted in the "Dublin Gazette," than they are as quoted in the "London Gazette." The prices in this Bill, upon which eventually payment may have to be made, are quoted from the "London Gazette." That being so, the Irish producer might find himself in this position, that the London prices upon which the guarantee becomes operative may be just on the limits which will mean that no subsidy will have to be paid, whereas the Dublin prices at that time will be below the limit on which the subsidy becomes payable; consequently the Irish producer, although his produce will only fetch the Dublin prices, will not come in for any subsidy, because the equivalent price on this side of the water will be upon a line which will make it illegal to pay the subsidy. I hope in Committee it may be possible to rectify this matter.
  This Bill, as a matter of fact, only applies to Ireland in regard to Part I. The Clauses which have been so severely criticised, the Clauses which enjoin proper cultivation and which give these very large powers of entry and the management of estates—to which so much objection has been taken—do not apply to Ireland—and I cannot say I am sorry. I do not know why they do not apply to Ireland. When my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary speaks again perhaps he will tell me why this is so. But Part II., although it does not apply to that part of the country from which I come, is so important, from an agricultural view-point, that I intend to say a few words upon it. In so far as the matters with which Part II. deals are important, we, in Ireland, are miles ahead of Great Britain. Few Members of this House probably remember all the Irish Land Bills which have passed through Parliament in past years. In Ireland to-day they have got what used to be called the "Three F's"—that is to say, fixity of tenure, freedom of sale, and fair rent. All these things, which were agitated for in years gone by, have been granted to Ireland. I should be the last to say that anything of the kind could be extended to this country, because, if it was, it would inevitably have the result of that which has happened in
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  Ireland, namely, that the very granting of the "Three F's" would lead automatically to a system of dual ownership. From dual ownership would flow one of two things—I take only the good results—either there would be nationalisation, or schemes of land purchase.
  What happened in Ireland was that owing to the intolerable and impossible position which was created under dual ownership the only alternative, and the only solution, was the solution of a large and widespread measure of land purchase which has had this beneficent result—in my opinion it is a beneficent result—that it has transferred the agricultural land of th country from the old landlords to the tenants, and it has created, and is still creating, peasant proprietorship. I would not like to say whether or not such a state of affairs would be desirable in Great Britain. The hon. Gentleman, who represents a Scottish constituency, and who spoke on Monday, said he was a tenant farmer himself, and further that he would like to see the establishment of occupying owners as a general principle, at any rate, throughout Scotland. If ever it came to a question as to whether there should be nationalisation of land in Great Britain, or a scheme which was to make the occupying tenants the owners of their land, such as has been done in Ireland, personally I have no doubt whatever that a scheme of land purchase which created a proprietorship of the actual occupiers of the soil would be in every respect infinitely preferable, infinitely better for agriculture, and infinitely better for this country as a whole than any system of nationalisation. Whether that will come or not the future can only tell. But I do see in Part II. of this Bill the thin end of the wedge of a system which in Ireland has led inevitably to land purchase.
  Some hon. Members have offered criticisms that this is purely a tenant farmers' Bill and that the occupying owner is in some way penalised by it. I cannot see that. Surely all these Clauses which deal with improvements and attempt to set up fair rents, compensation for disturbance, and so on, are not necessary in the case of people who are themselves occupying owners? If a man carries out improvements on his own land, there is no question but that those

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  improvements go to benefit him and him alone. He does not pay rent, so there can be no question of settling the rent for him. As he is the owner of the soil there can be no question of giving him compensation for disturbance. One further point in Part II. I should like to mention, and that is the provisions containing the powers of a receiver who takes over property which is badly managed. I know that such a provision was in vogue in parts of Germany before the War, and so far as I know, so far as the country is settled and free from the revolutionary upheavals through which it has gone, it still remains in force. In parts of North Germany it was the custom for the Government to take over control of landed properties where it was clear they were being hopelessly mismanaged. I know of one case in Mecklenburg where a large landed property had been badly managed and was overburdened with debt and mortgages. The Government receiver stepped in and managed that estate for the owner for many years, the result being that he pulled it round, and that certainly did not only benefit the property of the landowner, but it helped the food production of the country. I wonder if the President of the Board of Agriculture has considered this aspect of the matter. Presumably a receiver would only be put in where the property was in a thoroughly bad state, but it is nearly always the fact that when a property has reached a stage of this sort, where repairs are not kept up, cottages allowed to go to ruin, fences unrepaired, and so on, the reason is there is not enough money for the landlord to pay for these things. How is it proposed that a receiver put in by the Government shall pull round property when there is no money with which to do it? Is there to be any charge upon the State? Are the Government going to advance money for these receivers to manage these derelict properties, or how is it to be carried out? I do not know. If this is properly carried out, and if money is available to make these derelict bad estates better under a receivership, then I do think, from experience in other countries, there is something to be said for it.
  I should like to add a word of warning in regard to guaranteed prices. To-day by this Bill here, in this House, we are promising to pay a subsidy on agriculture
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  in certain events in future years. This Bill does not secure that subsidy for ever. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. G. Lambert) very aptly stated that the subsidy was terminable after four years. Whether it is terminable or not, to-day, when the prices of produce are fair and above those contemplated by the Bill, there is a very great deal of very determined opposition to that principle. But do we realise what may be the attitude of this House if and when the prices of produce have fallen below the prices mentioned in the Bill, and when the Government possibly have to pay many millions in subsidy to the farmers and other occupiers of land in this country? We have heard a great deal of criticism—and proper criticism—as to the railway subsidy, the bread subsidy, and all the thousand and one subsidies that have been paid, and I can very well foresee that when it comes to a question of actually paying this guarantee, which we are now undertaking, a much more difficult position may arise in this House. I would, therefore, in view of such a contingency, where this House might be unwilling actually to part with money—though to-day it is willing enough to guarantee it—in view of a possible position of that sort, urge agriculturists throughout the United Kingdom to remain prepared and ready to meet such an emergency—if it should arise! I myself am greatly in favour of the creation of farmers' unions throughout the country. I think they have done very good work. Knowing in my own part of the country the farmers' unions which have arisen only during the last year or so, and since the War, I can say that they have secured for farmers and agriculturists generally a good many advantages, which, so long as they were not united, they were unable to obtain. So it is, in my view, extremely important that farmers and all engaged in agriculture, in spite of the promise of the subsidy we have in this Bill, should remain upon their guard, organise themselves to be ready and prepared, whatever difficulties and possible dangers to their position the future may bring forth.
  Mr. ROYCE: I am not surprised at the general expression of opinion with regard to this Bill on the side of its probable fulfilment and the principle reason for its promotion, which is a greater production of corn. I have not heard one hon. Member say that he thought it would

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  result in a greater corn production in this country, although I have heard a good many speakers say that it will not result in the production of one single extra acre under corn. I hope it will. It has my very best wishes, and anything that can be productive of good to the agricultural industry will have my warmest support. In connection with Part I of the Bill, a good deal has been said with regard to a minimum price. I am not sure that the 68s. mentioned in the Bill is a minimum price. I can see the possibility of that 68s. being placed at a lower figure. It forms a basis for computing the cost of production, but if the cost of production falls then no longer will the 68s. be paid.
  I regard the position, from the farmers' point of view, as very unsatisfactory in- deed, because if, as at present, the farmer is receiving so much less than the world price to-day—I think I am right in saying that he is receiving something like 37s. a quarter less than the price the farmer receives in America—if that is so and if the price is based on the 68s., and he remains in the same relative position he does to-day, he will be just as much hurt as the taxpayer would be by the reference that the hon. Member has made should the world price fall. We want a system which would bring the poor lands into arable cultivation, a method by which the good farmer on poor land would benefit equally with the good farmer on good land, and that could be secured by the substitution of something in the nature of a bounty on acreage grown. It seems to me that that would ensure great arable cultivation. It may be possible, in conjunction with the Bill now before the House, that a system of acreage bounties may be introduced in addition, but I feel quite certain that a bounty on acreage would be more certain to produce corn at the present time than the fixed minimum price laid down in this Bill.
  It would also have the advantage that it would remove much of what is now regarded as obnoxious control. Under the system I suggest the farmer would be paid in January for the corn or other cereals he had sown in the autumn of the preceding year, and after that he would have a perfectly free market. He would sell his corn, and conduct his business generally in his own way, and thereby I
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  am quite sure that not only would it result in a greater production of cereals but also in much greater satisfaction among the farming population, because, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), who knows as much of farming as any man in England, said, the farmer on poor land would have an opportunity, if this bonus or premium was fixed for a period that would be at all commensurate with the risk of breaking up the land, of bringing some of those poor lands under arable cultivation.
  I am sure the Bill will pass a Second Reading as it stands, and the efforts of hon. Members will probably be concentrated on improving it in Committee. So far as I am concerned, I could find considerable room for improvement in this respect, under Part II. especially, and I should like to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that there are certain omissions that he might very well take into consideration and have them introduced into this Bill. One of them relates to agricultural transport. I know quite well that the right hon. Gentleman will tell me that that is a subject for the Minister of Transport, and so it is, but he has made no provision in this Bill for the purpose of obtaining land to build any light railways that may be decided upon. I would like to bring to the right hon. Gentleman's particular notice that it would be well, when he is taking such care to guard the interests of tenants, to insert provisions by which, at any rate at a reasonable cost, land can be obtained for the purpose of railway construction. This question has a very important bearing in my part of the country.
  Then there are the powers under the old Defence of the Realm Act administration, under which certain powers were given to county agricultural committees to make monetary advances to farmers, and, so far as the experience of my part of the country is concerned, it was a great success, because every penny advanced was repaid, and those advances were of great benefit to the farmers who were not in a position to cultivate their land as they ought to have done. Something of that kind might very well be pursued further in the absence of the institution of Land Banks, because the county agricultural committees would

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  never lose the Government's money. Certain powers might be inserted to enable such advances to be made, subject to the approval of the Board of agriculture.
  There is another provision which might very well be put in as an Amendment, by which premiums shall be made illegal paid by those rich men who desire to get possession of farms. In your Housing Bill you have made it illegal to pay key money, and certainly premiums ought to be abolished. My reason for making this suggestion, and the others I have introduced, is that I want to see more men on the land. I want to see the tenant farmer protected, and everyone does, because we all realise his value and the great benefit he has been to the nation during the recent severe trial, but do not protect him at the expense of stopping progress in other directions. What will be the effect, for instance, of this Bill on the obtaining of land for small holdings and allotments? I can see the effect upon any possible extension of small holdings and allotments if, when you seek to obtain a piece of land, you have to pay the man anything that he may decide he has suffered in a pecuniary sense, and, in addition, you have to give him a bonus of a year's rent at least, and it may be four years. That is a very serious matter, because the necessity for small holdings is very great.
  I know that a great deal of agitation has been going on throughout the country of late in consequence of the alleged, and, in some instances, the real, injury done to farmers by speculators buying land, although I think this has been a little overdone. I for one do not regard the transfer of land from huge blocks into the hands of numerous holders as being altogether disastrous to the country. I should like to see the land held by more men. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down outlined what the system of present proprietorship has produced in Ireland. I do not say that it should be produced by the same means here, but if it brings a greater number of people on to the land, it seems to me it can only be for good. This Bill will not do anything in that direction, but it will prevent it. A county council desiring to obtain land for ex-service men will be subject to all the fines and penalties of
  500
  a bad landlord. A county council desiring to create small holdings or allotments will be subject to these penalties.
  Let me give a case to illustrate how dangerous this legislation is that is now being introduced. A piece of land 50 acres in extent was held by an old bachelor, who held, in addition, several other farms. The land came into the market, and a philanthropic farmer, who had not lost anything in consequence of the late War, bought the land. Probably he wanted to make some restitution, and he purchased it with the philanthropic intention of cutting it up into smaller lots, and selling it at the cost price to ex-service men. The tenant in possession of this land was quite able to buy it if he had desired to do so, but he did not, and it was bought for these ex-service men. Under this Bill the sitting tenant, the man who did not buy the land when he might have bought it, will be able to claim damage for interference and also 12 months rent. Who is going to pay it? Are the returned soldiers, who are going to benefit, to pay this money? Is the philanthropic gentleman who bought the land or the man who sold the land without any knowledge of this legislation going to pay it? I would suggest that Clause 7 of the Bill should not apply in any case where the land under notice has been sold.
  I would like to give another case as a further illustration. A farm was sold to a county council for soldier settlers. The notice expires on the 6th April next. The price has already been arranged, and I may say that the tenant, who has been dispossessed, farmed the land very indifferently. Under this Bill this farmer, who has farmed the land badly, and who has had to give way for the sake of introducing soldier settlers, and who was a bad farmer, will be able to demand compensation for disturbance, and in addition to that a year's rent. Is that the sort of legislation we are going to pass? I hope not. There is another subject in the Bill with which the House would hardly be in general agreement, and which constitutes a very great danger in itself. The Evesham system has been eulogised in this House. I daresay it works well under certain conditions, especially when the fruit industry is in so prosperous condition as it has been during recent years. Farmers generally have been very prosperous, at any rate,

  501
  all except those on the extraordinarily poor lands described by my hon. Friend opposite. Generally speaking, farmers have been very prosperous during recent years, but their prosperity has been small by comparison with that of the fruit farmer. Under this much eulogised Evesham system a tenant who desires to plant fruit trees can do so, and possibly at the time of planting, and certainly after a year or two, the fruit trees will have greater value than the land itself. The position of the landowner who happens to have a mortgage on his land and to have that mortgage called in, would be very unhappy indeed, for he could not sell, he could not buy the tenant out, and he would be beneath the upper and the nether millstone. Consequently, before the right hon. Gentleman makes this the law of the land. I hope he will take this matter into consideration and adopt such steps as will prevent a man being forced into a position such as I have attempted to describe.
  There are other matters in the Bill with which I am not in accord, and in regard to which I hope there will be some improvement. Section 16 practically asks the tenant to plough up grass land. I have no doubt there are quite a number of tenants very anxious to plough up grass land, especially some of the rich grass land with which the right hon. Member for Chelmsford is very well acquainted. No doubt we shall be told by the Minister that if a tenant does plough up such land the matter will be referred to arbitration. Quite so. It might be possible to get judgment in favour of the man to whom the grass belongs—land which may have been under grass for hundreds of years, but it does not follow that even if you do get judgment against the tenant that that judgment can be executed. Therefore I say this is a very dangerous Clause. There are other reasons why it is dangerous. In a country largely arable, such as that in which I live, the difficulty of supplying children with milk has become very acute. A great deal of grass land has already been ploughed up and in country districts where one would expect that this great necessity for children would be obtainable there is no milk at all to be got. I suggest in this connection that some limit should be laid down, and that no tenant should have a right to plough up grass land unless the amount
  502
  of grass upon the farm is greater than 10 per cent. of the whole. I am not sure one ought not to make 10 acres, at any rate, the minimum that should be allowed for any farm, because some of the small holdings need this grass very badly indeed and in any sub-division of the farm it would be absolutely necessary that the grass should be there.
  Reference has been made to the advantages that have accrued to the agricultural labourers from the Corn Production Act. I am not so sure that they have received any advantage from that Act. Most of the speakers in this Debate have, no doubt, been very kind in their references to the Agricultural Wages Board, but some people think that that Board may have acted as a deterrent to the rapid increase of agricultural wages effected during the period through which we have just passed, and that it may have had something to do with preventing too rapid a rise. Altogether I think the Agricultural Wages Board has been as great a blessing to the farmer as it has been to the agricultural labourer. When we consider what reference the Corn Production Act has to agricultural wages, then I am forced to the conclusion it is very little indeed, as on an average farm the amount of corn produced would never make any great advance in agricultural wages. I think it will be found that other agricultural products have been a big factor in enabling the industry to maintain the wages which have been paid up to the present time. In connection with these other agricultural products I hope the Minister will take into serious consideration whether something cannot be devised by which they also to some extent may benefit by the paternal solicitude which has been exhibited by his Department in connection with the production of cereals. It may be the case at the present time that the farmers do not want it and that there is no necessity for it. For myself I do not think they want the Corn Production Act. They would much rather have the benefit of the world prices now ruling, as they would probably then be getting from 35s. to 37s. per quarter more than they are receiving at the present time. My right hon. Friend shakes his head at that, but I am inclined to think that that would be the effect and, possibly, the figure might be higher. While I am not in favour of allowing prices to go too high in connection with

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  an article which is a necessity for everybody, I would point out that when the time comes that prices are lower, then the farmer will justly point to the fact that during the period of high prices he was not able to benefit by those prices, especially as regards wheat, while in the lean time he is thrown on his own resources. If this Bill can do anything in that direction I shall be very pleased. So far as the general principle contained in this Bill is concerned, it will not affect the land in my part of the country. The Corn Production Act has very little influence there. Mine is an arable county. If you guaranteed a minimum price for potatoes some benefit might accrue to us because, as has already been mentioned by the Member for Kinross (Mr. Gardiner), we can produce all the potatoes this country wants. We do not, however, need control. The controls that have been exercised in the past have irritated the farming community more than the other difficulties which they have had to face, and I say, therefore, that so far as is possible, and as is consistent with a guaranteed minimum, or any other guarantee which the Government may propose to give, let the control be as limited as possible in its application.
  Under the Bill it will be possible for a busy executive officer of the County Committee to go to a farm and prescribe what the farmer shall grow. I wonder what would happen if the Board in its wisdom were to decree that the rich lands of Holland should be turned into corn-growing lands. I think that would be greatly resented. We have no guarantee, however, that such an order may not be given under this Bill. It is absolutely necessary that the control should be as little as possible, and that the Bill should more clearly describe what are the functions and powers of the Government under Part I. In the case of the mining industry a man works his mine to what he thinks will be to his best advantage, no matter what type of minerals he proposes to extract. When a farmer farms his farm he wishes to be allowed to do so in the way he thinks will be to his best interest. Therefore, when it becomes a question of defining whether interests will suffer by the imposition of this particular portion of the Act, it will prove a very difficult task under the Bill as it stands at present. The question whether a farmer is
  504
  injuriously affected or not is a very delicate one. Anybody, no matter what his system of farming may be will claim, if he is interfered with, that he is thereby injuriously affected. The Bill wants considerable overhauling, and I hope that it will emerge from Committee in such a condition as to ensure that it will be productive of benefit to the farming community as a whole.
  We want the greatest possible production. The Labour party have been very frequently singled out as a party opposed to the production of food. I think they have been wrongly singled out. I do not believe they have said, at any period of their existence, that the State should not assist in securing greater food production. It would be a suicidal policy if they did that. While they are not in favour of maintaining monopolies, they are in favour of the greatest possible amount of food production both in this cuntry and abroad, as anything which could possibly stop the importation of food would be detrimental to the best interests not only of the urban population, but even of the farming community itself. I trust that the Bill when it leaves Committee will be found to be one that we can all heartily support on the Motion for its Third Reading. In any way in which it may benefit the real interests of agriculture I wish it every success. I trust that the points I have raised, especially those affecting the acquisition of land for small holdings and for allotments, particularly by public authorities—for county councils are concerned in this—will receive serious consideration. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not forget that entry upon the land for railway purposes is necessary in the interests of agriculture, and, further, that he will not forget the advances that have been made by County Committees. In my district, at any rate, they have been a success, and I think he might take into consideration whether he cannot even include such a Clause in the present Bill.
  Mr. LANE-FOX: There has been a good deal of criticism of this Bill, and I think we may welcome as valuable that of the hon. Member who has just sat down, coming, as it does, from a member of the Labour party. I hope that in Committee he will persuade other members of the Labour party to join with him in supporting some of the Amendments he has

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  suggested. There have also been some gloomy predictions, but we have to remember that it is the privilege of the agriculturist to take a gloomy view, and that he is not accustomed to fail even in looking a gift horse in the mouth. I would remind hon. Gentlemen who have been criticising this Bill that it is not consistent at the same time to complain of State control and to look for extended guarantees. If you accept the principle of State guaranteed prices, you must accept State control. I dislike very much the idea of agriculture being controlled, but that is the only means by which guaranteed prices can be given, and in the present position of the country, where, above all, it is necessary that the farming interests should be given sufficient confidence to make certain of continuous food production in the future, I see no other way that can be suggested but the giving of some form of State guarantee in regard to the price of the farmers produce. This Bill offers that guarantee, and tries to obtain the further confidence of the farmer by putting in statutory form the old customs which have existed for so long between landlord and tenant. It may be a clumsy process to try and put in the language of the Parliamentary draughtsman all the systems and all the old customs which have not depended upon any written agreements or definite statutory law, but which have been the result of mutual trust and confidence for many generations. I maintain, however, that some sense of security and some further confidence has to be induced in the farming community, and, so far, no one in the Debate has shown any better means of doing that than by giving some form of guarantee.
  It is no use pretending that either landlords or farmers as a class will in every respect like this Bill. It is not, however, made for a class, but is necessary in the interests of the nation. Classes have to go under, and the nation must be thought of first. There are many things, in various parts of the Bill, which I personally, and probably other Members, regret, but that seems to me to be the one answer that can be given; if the general result is going to be a good one, these things have to go. I would warn some of my hon. Friends who have made these criticisms that, if this Bill be not proceeded with, it is possible that they
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  may have another which they may like very much less. Their criticisms may have to be directed against something far more drastic even than this Bill. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. W. R. Smith), who made an able and interesting speech on the previous occasion, contended that, instead of giving guarantees, we ought to improve agricultural education, and that the Government ought to be in a position to increase research and activities of that kind. I did not hear the rest of his speech, owing to the fact that I had to attend a meeting, held in this House, to consider the question which has arisen between the University of Leeds and the Ministry of Agriculture owing to the increased activities of the Government in this very direction. At the very moment that the hon. Member was making his speech I was engaged in dealing with a matter which has arisen directly from the increased activities of the Government. Everyone who has considered the matter knows that this Session we have passed a far larger Estimate for these services than we have ever passed before, and we hope that the Ministry of Agriculture will develop into fuller activity than it has ever before had the opportunity of doing. As regards the statement that it is not necessary to restore the confidence of farmers, which the hon. Member backed up by pointing out that farmers are now buying their farms, I am perfectly certain that all who really understand agricultural problems will agree that farmers have not been buying their farms, at any rate in any large numbers, because they wanted to have them as a commercial proposition, and had confidence in the future of agriculture. It is not a sign of their confidence, but rather of their want of confidence, They have been buying their farms, because they represented the homes in which their families have lived for many generations, and from which they did not wish to depart. Many of them bought most unwillingly, but it was the only way that they saw of getting any sort of security. That is the reason for many of those sales, some of which were on disastrous terms.
  There undoubtedly have been good years for farmers, but no one can deny that there is a very considerable uncertainty in the future of farming. One sees the old-fashioned landlords going down; one sees the activities of the land

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  speculator; and one sees the constant rise in wages and shortening of hours. One does not, however, see any certainty unless some form of State guarantee is given as to the price the farmer is going to get for his produce. The uncertainty must be met, and this Bill seems to me to be the only way of meeting it. Mention has been made of the settlement of soldiers on the land. What right have we to tell men that we are going to settle them on the land and open up a career for them, unless we give them some prospect that they are not being deluded into taking up an occupation which will eventually mean disaster for them? As I have said, I regret the amount of State control which these guarantees will involve. No one can pretend that, in accepting them, the farmer is not bartering away his liberty. He will be under the heel of the official at every turn and every point. It is, however, the price he has to pay, and it is the only price on which the country is prepared to give these guarantees.
  As regards the prices themselves, as has already been said, they seem to be too low. Of course, we understand that the prices named in the Bill are merely a datum line for fixing the figures for future years. I think the Commissioners have been given an impossible task in being asked to state what the cost of production is year by year. I think it would be far better to do what has been suggested already, namely, to fix a definite datum point—it could be done at once, and could be got more closely now than if it were done year by year—upon which you could base a sliding scale in the future definitely related to the cost of labour. If you could ascertain definitely, as I believe you could, what proportion the cost of labour bears to the cost of growing corn in this country, you would have a definite scale which would give some sort of certainty to the farmer. I do not wish to be disrespectful to the Agricultural Commission, but I attach no value whatever to its opinions. That may be impertinent, but it is my view. We know very little about it, because it debated with closed doors, and therefore is liable to criticism. From what one can hear, it spent more of its time in a sort of rather sleepy dog-fight, the two parties being far too busy making points against each other to arrive at general conclusions
  508
  of any great value. Personally, I quite understand that there are many farmers in this country who are discouraged by the prices which they see in this Bill, firstly, because they have no confidence in the Agricultural Commissioners; and, secondly, because the prices seem to them to be too low. If this Bill is going to give them that confidence which alone will make for increased production of corn, I suggest that it would be better to set up a Commission to go definitely into the cost of growing corn, perhaps at a rather later date, and to give a line from which to start.
  8.0 P.M.
  As regards a great deal of what has been said about the right of the Ministry to demand change of cultivation, and also repairs, I think the Bill would be strengthened if it were insisted that, in doing that, the Minister should act in consultation with the Agricultural Commissioners. Obviously, great unfairness might be involved by that Clause, either to the landlord or to the tenant, or to both. As regards putting in a receiver, I think everyone will agree that there are some cases in which that is necessary and desirable, but it must be done with care, and I think there should be some time given before the Order is made definite, and that, if the owner can show sufficient cause, the Order should lapse. In the matter of improvements, it is not safe to leave to the Agricultural Committee the duty of deciding by itself whether the landlord's consent shall be given or not. The Agricultural Committee may be dominated either by one class or by another. I have heard of Agricultural Committees on which there is a large majority of landlords, and also of Committees on which there are a considerable number of tenant farmers. A body of either of those kinds might be called upon to decide a question of this sort, and it would be unfair to them, and certainly might be unfair to the individual whose case was being considered. I do not quite understand the provision under which compensation is charged upon the land. There is an obvious difficulty in seeing where the money is to come from. I do not see, moreover, how that is to be charged on the land in the case of a settlement scheme. I hope some arrangement will be made, otherwise I do not understand how the provision is going to be carried out. Nor do I see why, if a tenant for

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  life has involved himself in a dispute with his tenants, he should be able to saddle that upon his successor. I agree with what has been said about one year's rent. I do not see why, if a tenant farmer is given full compensation for all his loss, and if the landlord has committed no wrong in giving him notice, there should be a time limit. This is a matter on which we shall not have much dispute. I want to see him amply compensated for any loss he may have suffered, but I do not see why there should be anything beyond that. I regret the necessity for a great deal of the Bill. I would far rather see the old customs maintained and the old principles acted upon, but we must realise that circumstances have changed and that conditions are changing every day. To meet this and to get confidence some Measure of this kind is absolutely necessary. It will be the duty of many of those who criticise to try to make the Bill more satisfactory and more complete. I only hope the Minister will give every opportunity of proper Amendment and careful consideration to every part of the Bill. I believe it to be urgently needed and I believe with proper Amendments it will be successful. We cannot have successful food production unless we give confidence to those skilled farmers who have carried on in the past to enable them to remain on their farms, and unless you make it possible for them to do so with success.
  Lieut.-Colonel WHELER: I agree with my hon. Friend in regretting that this Bill has had to be introduced, but it was a necessary result of promises made and of the situation in which agriculture now finds itself. It has met with an enormous amount of detailed criticism, and that is not in the least to be wondered at considering the subject on which it is based. Our system of agriculture is built up on years of experience under very difficult conditions in every part of the country in which it operates, and the process has been gradually going on of its being brought more under State control, and when we have these Regulations, and we realised during the War that they were essential, we realised that gradually the State was getting a certain control over the land which it had not in the past, we realised that there must be very difficult situations to face because land varies so much in quality from one end of a field to another, and therefore a situation which may be
  510
  equitable in one part of the country may be entirely unsuitable to another. And yet, of course, the Bill is endeavouring to deal with the situation as regards questions of prices and to regulate prices, and by so doing to give security and confidence to the agricultural community. At present I cannot see in the Bill that there is any great prospect of any increase of arable land. I cannot see what part of the Bill is going to produce it. Taking the question of prices, I do not understand in the least how those prices have been got at, and I would ask my right hon. Friend whether he could give some explanation as to the standard of wages on which they were fixed by the Agricultural Commission, because from all I know the standard of wages at the time was very much lower than to-day or even last year, and I am already getting, in common. I am sure, with many others, questions from agricultural bodies asking what the rate of wages was taken at before they discuss the question themselves. If we are going to get the confidence of the agricultural community in the Bill, which is so essential, it is very necessary that, at any rate, those preliminary points on which farmers undoubtedly want to know so much should be quite plain and that we should have the basis, whether we agree with it or not, on which these minimum prices were fixed.
  I want to add a few words to the admirable remarks made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Pretyman) as to the serious conditions which exists to-day on poor land. It was undoubtedly owing to the increased cultivation of that large amount of land, which was really unsuitable in many cases for the purposes it was put to during the War, that we got the increased production of foodstuffs, and a large amount of that land is rapidly deteriorating and going hack to a state which is most unsatisfactory Further than that, the agricultural labourers in those districts, uplands most of them, are rapidly getting out of employment. Even in parts of Kent I know little villages in the uplands where there are two, three, or four young men who would willingly take wages below the standard rate allowed by the Agricultural Wages Board. That, of course, cannot be done. I only give that as an instance of some of the difficulties which we are facing to-day. The reason is perfectly plain, that the land cannot produce per acre anything like the amount

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  that better and lower lands are producing, and, therefore, when you get one standard of wages applied to every part of the land it operates very hardly on inferior qualities of land which, whatever you do in the way of manuring, will not produce the amount that the better lands are producing in other parts even of the same county, with the result that there is a small percentage undoubtedly at present of labouring men who cannot find that permanent employment we all want to see them find. It is a situation which will grow as time goes on, because we can regulate agriculture by law and by regulations, but those uplands which I have in my mind come ever more and more under the influence of weather. They get scorched in the summer very rapidly, and even now the prospects of the crops are not good. The hay crop is probably going to be light, and the man-gold crop a complete failure. Naturally the farmer with an increased wages bill, which I want to see paid, is looking ahead as to the capital he will have from his crops between now and Christmas, and he realises that if this crop and that is a failure he will not have the capital with which to pay the increased wages.
  I mention this because I do not see in the Bill anything that is going to do any good to help that sort of land, and that is the land I want to see helped. I believe the good land can hold its own. It can afford to pay high wages. It gets heavy crops and high prices, but there is this large percentage of inferior land which wants special attention from the Ministry of Agriculture if you are going to keep up that increased production and keep the people in those districts, and keep the general industry going in the way you want to see it going. Therefore while I am going to support the Bill, and do all I can to see that we get Amendments which will strengthen it, at the same time, as far as Part 1 is concerned, I have serious doubts as to what good it will do for agriculture as a whole, to bring about that increased production which we all realise is the reason for the introduction of this Bill. We hear reckless people talking of agriculture as if everybody in agriculture were making enormous profits out of it. You may find people who have made money out of agriculture in prosperous districts, but if you are going to include in those pro-
  512
  sperous districts the inferior land in the bad districts and treat the whole of agriculture as one industry on the same lines as a manufacturing industry, which is under cover and not affected by the weather, it will be found that the land for which I am pleading will go out of cultivation. It will be no use talking about social amenities in those villages, and about doing all we can to encourage people to live there when the land is going back to grass. It is no use bringing to that land the ex-soldiers, because I know of cases now where the county council have bought land and handed it over at a price of only 10s. or 15s. an acre rent to the returned soldiers, and these men are having a very hard time. I do not see how they are going to carry on if this year, as seems likely according to the reports from many parts of the eastern counties, we have a dry summer, and they do not get a bountiful crop in order to make ends meet.
  In deference to the Labour party, I would urge them to do what they can to help us to educate town opinion which is often so hostile to agriculture as a whole or, at any rate, looks upon agriculture with a very rosy view. I would ask them to do something to make the town population realise that it is in their own interests that agriculture should receive inspiration. The agricultural landowner—I want to distinguish between the landlord and the agricultural landowner—the tenant farmer, and the agricultural labourer are three persons who must work together. Therefore, in attacking the agricultural landowner, as he is often attacked, and very unfairly attacked, they are not only attacking him, but the tenant farmer and the labour in those districts. What is wanted more than ever in those districts is confidence. Confidence will bring capital, and if we get more capital spent on the land in these poor land districts there is some hope of keeping up cultivation. At the present time capital is not going to those districts. The landowners in those districts are men who are at the present time under heavy taxation and they have to sell, not willingly, because they cannot carry on. There is a point in this Bill which hits them very much. If a forced sale comes along, because in order to meet the requirements of the State they cannot carry on, it seems to me very hard that they should be called upon to pay the tenant

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  farmer one year's rent on any farms they have to sell, in addition to other charges put upon them. That must depreciate the value of agricultural capital in the eyes of anyone seeing that land and realising what is happening, and it means that the future prospects of getting capital into the industry in those districts is depreciated. Therefore, the capital which is essential for the welfare of agriculture in these poor land districts is stopped, and with it the general trend of agriculture must depreciate.
  One cannot too strongly realise that the land of England is not raw material. Many people think it is. Moorland may be, but not agricultural land, which has been cultivated. This land has been brought to its present condition and is kept in its present condition by the application of fertilizers and so on, and if the matter is considered on a fair basis one must realise that the cultivated land of England to-day is a manufactured article and as such it must be treated. Beyond that conclusion, we must all remember that there has to be expenditure not only by the tenant farmer but the landowner in improved buildings, improved drainage, and so on, and the man who has put his capital into the industry in this way has as much right to get his capital back as any man in any industrial business when he sells that land to some other person. I hope we shall have the point cleared up in regard to the basis on which the figure of 68s. for wheat and 46s. for oats is put in the Bill. It is essential that we should know how those figures are arrived at. Though two members of the Royal Commission have spoken we have not had any definite explanation how the 68s. was arrived at. The general control of estates is a serious question which must be carefully considered, because it means an official control which may be irksome and serious. It is an entirely new departure and as such must be dealt with in a very careful way. I realise that there is a great difference of opinion as to whether we should have security of capital or security of tenure. I have never yet been able to find out how we can have security of tenure without something in the shape of a Land Court. I cannot speak for the farmers of Scotland, but the bulk of the farmers of England do not want anything in the nature of a Land Court at the present time. 'Therefore some security of
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  capital in the case indicated is essential, and so far as that part of the Bill is concerned I shall give it my support, but I hope at the same time the Clause all round will be carefully considered.
  I realise that the Bill is an attempt to deal with a very difficult situation. It has been brought forward, possibly after anxious and difficult times in the Cabinet before a final conclusion was reached. I realise that it is an endeavour to do something to produce a policy for agriculture, though I confess quite frankly it is not as good a policy as one hoped; but it is a policy in which we know where we are better than we know to-day. Judging it as such, I am prepared to do my best, if I happen to be a Member of the Committee, to improve it by Amendment. No doubt, we shall get Amendments from every society interested in agriculture, in addition to the Amendments put down by hon. Members of this House to help to frame the Bill in the way we want to see it framed. I do not see how it is going to increase production. On the other hand, I do see from the increased control a danger of diminished production on poor land. I hope my fears may be groundless, but I am speaking as one who has been farming poor land for many years and who has come through trying times, when we sold wheat at 26s. a quarter. We could not do that to-day. It would be quite impossible on that price to pay wages. I realise the difficulties of the Bill, and I will do all I can to improve it. At the same time, I hope the Minister in charge will give favourable consideration to the Amendments which we consider necessary.
  Sir HARRY HOPE: The introduction of this Bill is a proof that the welfare and development of agriculture was recognised by the Government to be a matter of pressing national concern. The right hon. Gentleman when introducing the Bill told the House that the land under cultivation in the United Kingdom has decreased by 5,000,000 acres between the years 1870 and 1910. It was no wonder that there was this large decrease when we remember what the prices of produce were in the 'eighties and 'nineties. The worst time was about the year 1894. At that time wheat fell to about 22s. per quarter and oats to about 18s. The economic effect of those prices un-

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  doubtedly was that land went into grass. That great reduction meant a very serious loss to all classes in the agricultural industry. Farmers, workmen and owners all suffered, and the number of men employed on the land showed a decrease of 900,000 according to the census of 1911 as compared with the census of 1871. The right hon. Gentleman also told us that the production of wheat had decreased from 13,000,000 quarters to 7,000,000 quarters in the period from 1879 to 1906. There again there was a tremendous loss, and when we see how those men were turned adrift from the land and sent into the unhealthy conditions in many of our towns, it is no wonder that, when the gigantic War broke out, and the great struggle was thrust upon us, so many of our men came into the C 3 group, and in that alone there is ample justification for the introduction of this Bill.
  When we come to consider Part 1 of the Bill, there are two points of view. The first is the farmers' point of view. I represent a Scottish agricultural constituency, and I know perfectly well the farmers of Scotland have not asked for Part 1 of this Bill. They look upon this proposal to guarantee prices with a great deal of suspicion. The Scottish people are a practical people. They always look at both sides of the shilling, and they are not wrong, because they recognise that if prices fall and money has got to be given to make up for this guarantee, it would be very dearly got money. This may come in many directions. We may have questions raised about local rates, railway rates, and other matters mostly connected with the agricultural industry, and therefore they feel that if they ever get any public money under this Bill, their interests will suffer in other directions. Then when farmers come to look at this proposal in Part 1, they see what a very partial method it is of guaranteeing produce. They see that when they consider the conditions in well-known courses in agriculture, for instance, in what is known as the six-course shift. There are only two of the six years of that shift which come under any guarantee according to this Bill. In other words, it is only going to be one-third of the area on which any guarantee can be given, and yet they are going to be responsible for all the expenses of the six years. The
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  other four years of the rotation will be taken up with turnips, potatoes and other crops, and no compensation, no guarantee, is to be paid for the produce of those years. Then when we consider any of the other rotations, we find that under the five-course shift pretty much the same state of affairs exists, and as regards the four-course shift, there, again, there is not more than one-fourth of the area which would come under this guarantee. Then, as we know, roots take about two and a half times as much expense to grow as a corn crop, and under all those methods of agriculture as practised in the country there is to be a subsidy given only in something like 20 per cent. of the area.
  No wonder that farmers, as practical men, look upon this particular part of the Bill with a great deal of suspicion. Some people may say, "Let them miss out those parts to which a guarantee is not applicable." We know that in practice the green crops are the difficult crops of agriculture. It is by the cultivation of those crops that the fertility and productivity of the land are maintained. Some of those crops are leguminous crops. There, again, we find that the nitrogen of the air is converted into fertilising agents. Then we find that these crops are the only means by which the land is cleansed. When we see how small is the proportion of the area to which the guarantee is to apply, it is no wonder that an hon. Member, looking at it from the farmer's point of view, said that if there are to be guarantees there should be guarantees for all the crops. I do not say it would be very easy to carry that out in practice, but I do say that barley should be included, as the Royal Commission recommended. Farmers, of course, look with a good deal of fear at the procedure for control. The right hon. Gentleman, in his speech on Monday, said:
  "We take the right to take action, first of all, if a farm is not being cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry, and I do not suppose anybody could object to that."
  I do not think any reasonable man can object. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
  "Then we propose, secondly, that we may take action if we are satisfied that the production of food on any land can be increased in the national interest by the occupier, by improvement or change in the manner of cultivation or using of land."

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  Farmers say that outside people are not as well aware of all the peculiarities and properties of the land as they are, and that to have these outsiders dictating on matters of detail would have a most ruinous effect on the industry. Farming is no haphazard business. It is an industry which has to be carried on in direct touch with the laws of nature. The farmer has to sow before he reaps, in more ways than one. Unless he understands the laws of nature, unless he carries on experimental work for his own instruction—perhaps he may make mistakes and learn better methods—and unless he takes advantage of scientific research, he cannot develop his land to the highest pitch of production. In all that work he fears the interference of outside bodies of men. And no wonder! In all this procedure great care will have to be taken that the work of the skilled agriculturist is not interfered with unduly. I have stated the farmers' view of the position. There is another view, the national view. In the past we have seen prices and production fall to an enormous extent. We have seen rural depopulation take place. The nation must face the facts and guard against any repetition of that state of affairs. With regard to one of the provisions of the Bill, I do not think it can with accuracy be said that the proposal is to guarantee prices. As a matter of fact, what is proposed is a system of insurance, an insurance of the nation against a repetition of the disastrous results of the past. When we see how this is to be carried out, I think all classes in the country will recognise that it is wise to take this step. Just as every prudent individual insures his property against fire or other mishaps, or insures against workmen's compensation claims, so we recognise that it is wise for the country to insure itself against a repetition of the disaster which occurred in the eighties and nineties.
  Part II. of the Bill provides for security of tenure. In the past we have had large estates owned by old families. Tenants on those estates have had what you might say was ample security of tenure, and the owners held the estates in a manner not only creditable to themselves but most beneficial to the nation at large. They deserve all the credit and all the thanks of the community for having held their land in such an unselfish manner. This Bill provides for giving statutory security
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  of tenure. I have always been in favour of security of tenure. Next to occupying ownership it is an ideal to be aimed at. Nine years ago I introduced into this House a Bill for setting up, by a system of arbitration, a scheme of tenure which would have enabled all occupiers of land to obtain security. Therefore I look with quite friendly eyes upon a proposal that security of tenure should be given in a direct way. But we have to consider this question from all points of view. It will never do to give security of tenure to anything such as a Land Court. We do not want to close the door against new men becoming occupiers of farming land. I think the proposals in the Bill on the whole may be considered as amply fulfilling the words and the spirits of the Prime Minister's speech at the Caxton Hall. A practical result, of the passing of the measure will be that arbitration will be greatly encouraged between the landlord and his tenant. The Bill provides also for a system of compensation. What we want is to encourage the putting of capital into the land. There is one point to which I would like to direct attention. In many cases where the buildings were in poor condition the leases were renewed to the tenant at very low rents because he had to put up with those faulty buildings. I understand that this Bill does not interfere with agreements which have been made on lease. I think it would be very unfair that a tenant who got his lease renewed at a low rent should then be able to come under this Bill and continue to pay the old rent and force the landlord to renew the buildings. On the whole, I think the Government have carried out their pledge in this Bill, which should be looked at, not from the farmers' point of view, but from the national point of view, and looked at that way I think it may do a great deal to help production, and we know how necessary that is. I shall certainly give my support, looking at it from the consideration of the common welfare.
  Mr. JESSON: I desire to approach this question from a point of view that has not, in my opinion, received sufficient consideration so far in this Debate, and that is from the point of view of the urban worker. I am not going to criticise the provisions of the Bill with regard to farming, as I do not sufficiently understand the subject. My knowledge of agriculture is limited to the information which

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  I acquired in cultivating a plot in Battersea Park during the War, and I came to the conclusion from that experience that agriculture was about the best imitation of hard work that I had come across. I calculated at the end of the War that every one of the carrots and potatoes I had grown cost me about half-a-crown each, and I concluded that I had paid for whatever experience I had got. As to the urban workers, some of us have a rather vivid recollection of the industrial disputes in the late 'Eighties and early 'Nineties, particularly in the dock districts, and we know that the men who came to take the places of those who went out on strike came very largely from the rural districts. They were being driven off the land because it was impossible for them to get a living on it at that particular time, and they took advantage of the industrial disputes during that period to come into our towns and fill our slums, depress the labour market and force down the wages of the workers in the town to a very considerable extent. That went on until the South African War, and after that war things began to improve. But there was a steady drain of workers from the rural districts into the towns until a few years before the late War. That War brought it home to us that that is a state of things which has got to be stopped if we are going to improve the lot of the urban worker at all. The War also brought home to us that there are in this country, roughly speaking, about four hundred thousand young fellows who arrive at the age of eighteen every year, and those have got to be absorbed into industry and to find employment. It is obvious that those young fellows intend to get the best opportunities they can, and they naturally and very properly want to get better opportunities than their fathers had.
  That is the problem which we have got to face. It is impossible for industry to absorb all those young men every year, a sheer impossibility, and we have got to look for other avenues of employment. The only other avenue we have in this country is to bring back the land to cultivation. We know that every thousand acres of land cultivated properly employ eighty-three persons, and every thousand acres of land put down to grass only employ about sixteen per-
  520
  sons. That means that if we can get 30,000,000 acres of land cultivated in this country we ought to find employment on the land for approximately 2,500,000 workers. That is a very important fact as far as employment is concerned, but the next point we have to consider is, as to what is going to be the effect and what inducements we are going to offer to these young fellows to go upon the land and earn a livelihood. First of all, they will naturally compare the employment on the land with that in other industries, and one of the first things they will run up against will be employment as coal miners. The coal miners are getting very good wages—anything, I understand, from £4 to £6 per week. I say, without any disrespect to the miners, that it is an occupation that a man of ordinary intelligence could learn in several months. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Then there is the case of the dockers. The dockers have just got an award of 16s. a day, and, again, I say that that is an employment that a man of ordinary intelligence could very easily acquire. Again, there is the railwaymen, who have just got an award, and it is going to be amended further still, but the point I want to make is this.
  The young fellows that we want to take up agriculture have got an opportunity of crowding into these other industries, and they are going to choose their occupation from the point of view of what suits them best. The opportunities that are given to a young fellow to go upon the land are not particularly promising. The wages at present being paid for the ordinary agricultural labour, a very skilled trade and certainly more skilled than any of the industries I have mentioned, are only about £2 2s. per week, and that offers no attraction so far as those people are concerned. In addition to that, the amenities of country life are certainly not to be compared with the amenities of town life. There are no facilities for enjoyment and pleasure in country districts such as exist in all our great urban districts, and therefore that is a very great drawback. That is the position we are faced with, and the workers in the town districts, if they want to prevent all these young men crowding into our towns to depress the industrial system, to compete with them for employment, to lower wages, and to fill our

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  slums again, have got to be prepared to assist the worker on the land to get a good living. I believe the workers generally will rise to the point later on that if they want to retain their present high wages and decent conditions of employment, and to prevent competition bringing down those wages, they have got to guarantee to the agricultural labourer that he is not going to be sweated any longer on purpose to provide them with cheap food. The agricultural labourer is going to have the best living that he can possibly get, and we have got to make it worth his while to stay on the land and to produce the food that we require.
  From the national point of view, we have got to produce as much food from the land of this country as the land can possibly give. We know that land that is not properly cultivated is not only not producing wealth, but is not employing labour, and therefore those two things must go together. Recently I have been going through country districts speaking to farmers and to agricultural labourers, and the farmers whom I have met tell me that the prospects of this Bill seem almost too good to be true, as far as they are concerned. I want to see not only a guaranteed price for all the farmer can produce, conditional upon him giving the very best wages possible to the agricultural worker, which can be settled by arbitration, but I want also to see markets so organised that everything that the farmer can produce can, without anxiety to him, find a market, on the understanding that the more he produces the more he will earn for himself. That is the kind of Bill that I hope this Bill is going to develop into. In conclusion, I want to say that unless we can offer decent conditions for the workers to go upon the land, conditions that will compare favourably with those of workers in other industries, I am afraid the town worker will be making a rod for his own back. I hope the town worker will realise what this Bill means. It may mean that his food is going to cost him more than it did in the old days. That he has got to regard as an insurance against unemployment; that to me seems inevitable. You cannot have the two things. Either you must protect your employment, and if you do that you
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  have got to be prepared to pay a fair rate of wages for the man who provides your food, or you must leave your employment unprotected. I believe that, if we can grow the £200,000,000 worth of food on the land of this country that we were importing before the War, that wealth would add enormously to the resources of this country.
  Mr. W. COOTE: I wish to offer some comment on this Bill from the point of view of the Irish farmer. Several hon. Members have said that this Bill is not going to produce any more corn than has been produced in the last couple of years, but if we can under this Bill retain the high tide of production which we have maintained in Ireland during the last few years, then this Bill will have done a great deal of good indeed. I do not know how we should compare with other portions of the United Kingdom, but since the Corn Production Act came into force in Ireland in 1917, the output of production has been increased by a very high percentage indeed. There are some points of criticism which I should like to offer to the Bill, and, in the first place, the farmers in Ireland are a little bit chary about the way these Commissioners are going to be appointed. I understand that there are three members who will form Commissions, and one of them is to represent the Treasury, another the Board of Trade, and the third is to be selected by the three Boards of Agriculture, namely, of England, Scotland, and Ireland. Rightly or wrongly, the Irish farmer thinks he will not have a show in the appointment of these Commissioners, that is to say, that it is hardly likely that an Irishman will be appointed.
  9.0 P.M.
  I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the conditions of agriculture in Ireland differ much from those in England and Scotland, and in order that this Bill may work very successfully, and that all may be accomplished which we wish from it, nothing should occur to mar the confidence of the Irish farmer in the operation of the Act at the present time, or to cause him to think his interests are not properly looked after. We have to look at matters in Ireland from the Irish point of view. Our cultivation is very intensive in many parts of the country, and if you adopt that which is suitable to England and Scotland, I am

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  afraid in some cases it would have disastrous effects. However, this is really a Committee point. Then I should like to point out that the time limit, from our point of view, is too short, and that to attract farmers to break up more land, I think you will have to increase the time limit to at least ten years, if you are going to produce the crop of food which is necessary to this country.
  There is another matter which, I think, will be to some extent harmful. I think, so far as Ireland is concerned, we ought to be very careful about imposing irritating restrictions on the people. These are to be imposed largely through the county agricultural committees, and, as I understand the Bill, the county committee inspector is to go round and see if farming is properly carried on, and, if it is not, he has to bring the matter before the county committee, who are to sit in judgment. From my point of view you are restricting the area too much that will come under the purview of this committee. The men who form these county committees will be taken from among the farmers themselves. You may have petty jealousy between one farmer and another, and you will make the farmers outside rather suspicious of the acts of the committee, and they will not have that respect for the decisions of the committee which they ought to have. I think it would be very much better if this were dealt with by the Department of Agriculture itself. If the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture were to form an advisory committee, I think the farmers would have more faith in the judgment of the Board of Agriculture itself, or the head of the Department, than in these local committees. My reason for pressing this matter is this: We have now cropping up in all parts of Ireland farmers' organisations, and these are doing excellent advisory work. May I take this opportunity of congratulating the Department on taking a step forward which is very popular in Ireland, and that is in linking-up these agricultural organisations for the purpose of advice to the Department of Agriculture? It is unifying the whole principle of agriculture in Ireland. It is popularising the Department and giving it more confidence in the country. For this reason I deprecate relegating to county committees the question of de-
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  ciding whether farming is not being done in the interests of better production.
  These are the points which I would offer by way of criticism of the Bill. In Ireland, we look upon the Bill as a step still further in the right direction. It is a guarantee that the interests of the farmer are being looked after by the State, and, while we should very much like to have seen a wider sympathy, and some form of guarantee, for instance, for the raising of potatoes in sufficient quantities, I wish to congratulate the Minister in charge of the Bill, and I hope that we shall be able in Committee to have some of the improvements which I have suggested introduced into the Bill. If, along those lines, Amendments are inserted, I believe the people of Ireland will welcome this Bill very much.
  Mr. H. T. BARRIE (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture,): I intervene at this point in order to reply to the two speeches we have heard from Irish representatives, and I desire at once to say, in answer to the last speaker, that it is not the view of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland that any work should be cast upon the county committees. We have, under the Corn Production Act, set up a small appeal tribunal, which has done admirable work in this connection, and I am quite sure that, with the assistance of some of my friends from Ireland in the Committee stage of this Bill, we shall be able to settle this to the satisfaction of all interests concerned. May I take this opportunity of saying that I believe this Bill will receive in Ireland a most cordial welcome? We are not here to dispute the suggestion that, during the last five years, agriculture on the whole has been profitable in Ireland, as well as in many other parts of the world; but we regard this Bill as a prudent man regards an insurance policy. We think it will have the effect of giving confidence in agriculture—a confidence which, for good reasons, was lacking for a great many years. That is the spirit in which this Bill will be accepted, I think, by all classes of farmers in Ireland—I mean the smaller as well as the larger. We shall welcome any assistance in Committee in order that the Bill may be moulded to the special needs of Ireland.
  Reference has been made to the importance of agricultural education. We have even had the wish expressed that the

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  money involved in the State guarantee might have been better spent in developing forms of agricultural education, and marketing and transport. We have been doing all these things in Ireland for almost a generation, and we think that, from the fact that in this very important matter Ireland has led the way, one reason may be found why Ireland has been prosperous, especially so far as agriculture is concerned, in recent years. It is a remarkable fact that, despite all the circumstances of Ireland at the moment, which may have been expected to retard agricultural education, we have had something like 5,000 more students in our agricultural and technical classes during the last 12 months than at any previous period of our history. I think that should be mentioned here, because it is a matter which has given the Department over which I have the honour to preside the greatest satisfaction. As to the question of transport, we have also been able to give valuable help to the farmers in adopting the very latest developments in that connection, and with regard to marketing of produce, on which emphasis has been laid by an hon. Member who has spoken, we have had in the Irish Department for many years a Marketing Section, with officers for dealing with all kinds of agricultural produce, and we have gone so far that we have also on this side of the Channel another set of officers to see that the goods arrive in proper order and find their way to the proper market. I think that when this Bill is passed through the Committee stage it will be found by the Irish farmers to be another great boon coming from this Parliament which has done many generous things for Ireland during the past quarter of a century.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day three months."
  There are very few parts of this Bill with which I have any sympathy. One turns from one to another of the various objections which one could raise to its passage into law. In the first place, I think it has been introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, if he will pardon me for saying so, on false pretences. He urged as the principal reason why the Bill should be passed into law the alleged fact that we did not know where to turn for
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  our daily bread. He said in effect that Russia as a wheat-producing country is dead, and Hungary as a wheat-producing country is dead, but curiously enough on the same day we had a pronouncement from the same box by the Prime Minister telling us that vast stores of wheat were in Russia only waiting for trade and exchange, to be liberated for the use of this country. I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit that it is not the shortage of food in the world at present which has led him to introduce this Bill; it is more his sympathy with the interests of those people who produce food in this country. The Bill may be divided into two parts which have very little in common between them. I will deal first with the second part which establishes the beginning of dual ownership in this country. The second part, in Clauses 7 and 8 particularly, is designed to secure a large addition to the compensation granted to tenant farmers if their tenancy is closed by the landlord. That gives the farmer a tenant right in effect, and it is the commencement of the establishment of proprietary ownership of the soil by the tenant farmers of this country. I have no particular love for the old landlords of England, but I certainly prefer them to the new ones. The old landlords, whom we have had with us for many centuries, knew how to do their duty. The old families fought in the War, they lost members of their families in the War; they have done their duty by England. I do not think the same can be said for the new landlords whom we are now establishing by this Bill. The tenant farmers of this country were not particularly forward in fighting for their country. Many of them sent their farm labourers to fight, and kept their sons at home. [An HON. MEMBER: "A lot lost their sons, too!"] There are two sets of landlords, and I think we on the Labour Benches prefer the old to the new. Now we are going to establish what is really tenant right; we are going to make it more difficult to change the ownership of the land, and by doing that you are going to stereotype for all time the existing farms and the farming system of the country.
  The county councils of England are not doing very much now in the way of setting up small holdings. Before the War they were doing more in that way than they are doing now. The county

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  councils are still trying to purchase land and to break up the big farms into small holdings. You are going to make that process more difficult. If you make it more expensive to change land from one hand to another, the establishment of small holdings will be made more difficult. If you want the land more fully used, you should make it more easily marketable. All this agitation that we have for registration of title had the object of making the land more easily marketable, so that the men who want land for intensive agriculture should get it more easily than under the old system. We want to increase the marketability of what land there is in the country. But under this Bill the selling of land is to be more difficult, and the buying of land will be made more difficult and expensive, and the acquisition of that which is necessary for all men to live will be increased in difficulty instead of diminished by the passage of the second part of this Bill. I object to the establishment of dual ownership, because it makes land more difficult of access to the people, and it will perpetuate the system of big farming which now exists, instead of breaking the farms up into smaller ones and so helping the farm labourer to obtain an economic basis by acquiring a house and cottage which he can call his own and enabling him to stand face to face with his employer and get the wages which is his due. The other part of the Bill is even more disastrous than the second part with which I have dealt. The prices of wheat and oats are to be guaranteed. They are not to be guaranteed by way of a subvention now, but the hands of Parliament are to be deliberately tied so that it will become an annual subvention for a series of four years, whatever this House may say. At present nothing is to be paid, but as freights fall and the production of wheat in the world increases, that portion of this Bill will take effect, and when that happens the taxpayer will be paying a certain class of farmer this subvention for the growing of wheat. It is protection of agriculture by means of a bonus instead of by means of a Protective Duty. As a Free Trader I prefer, and I think every Free Trader will prefer, this sort
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  of protection in the Bill to the other sort, but still it is protection to give an annual subvention, and it is not only for the farmer, but it is also for the landlord class. It will have a direct effect upon the tenant farmer, but it will also apply to others who are interested in the land as well.
  The effect of the guaranteed price, which we may assume will be above the market price of the day, will increase the letting value and the selling value of agricultural land, particularly of wheat-bearing land. It is therefore not only a subvention to the farmer, but also to the landowner, when it comes into effect. And that is to go on, no matter what change may come about in the composition of this House. You are attempting to tie the hands of Parliament, even when there is no longer a Conservative majority in this House.
  Suppose that at the next election we get a Labour majority, or suppose it is a Labour and Liberal Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not such a coalition!"]—I do not want either to prophecy or to lay down the law. But suppose that it is a majority of this House which is still in favour of Free Trade and against the protection of the farming interest of this country. Even then by the passage of this Bill, as I understand it, you will have tied the hands of that Government, of the House of Commons. You say under this Bill that by a Resolution of both Houses of Parliament this Bill may be brought to an end in four years' time. Even if we get a Free Trade majority in this House it is too much to imagine that we should ever get a Free Trade majority in the other place, and therefore it would be hopeless to expect agreement. Even if we get a majority in this House and passed a Resolution here that this system of protection was to cease in four years, still, under this Bill, we are unable to carry that into effect because the other place would not pass any such Resolution. I do not know whether the framers of this Bill have imagined what would happen if under these circumstances this House, which after all has control of the purse refused to vote the money for this subvention. It seems to me that not only the Bill, but even this four years' limit, would fall to the ground, because, after all, if the money was not voted it could not be paid out to the farming class. It seems to me, therefore, that

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  this Bill is a direct infringement of the rights of this House to control the public purse and the expenditure of the money of this country.
  What I want to emphasise again is this: If this first part of the Bill comes into operation the whole body of the taxpayers of the country will be paying an annual subvention to a particular class of the country. That, to my mind, is fundamentally wrong. Parliament ought not to exist—I do not say it does exist—as a body to give subventions to any particular class of the community. We who represent the body politic, and not any particular class, when we deliberately vote the payment of money, as we do in this Bill, for the subvention of a particular class, are acting contrary to the best traditions of this House, and indeed to the traditions of Parliament as it has existed since the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1848. It is not merely that the prices which have to be paid for wheat and oats that are fixed by this Bill, but the Bill provides that these prices shall vary according to the cost of production. I should like to see the figures of the cost of production upon which the prices named in the Bill are framed. The right hon. Gentleman informed me that rent did not enter into the cost of production. I hope that may be so, but I strongly suspect there is some rent entering into the figures given in the Bill as the cost of production of wheat at the present time.
  The Bill does state that in varying the prices rent shall not enter in. Good! But how about rates entering in? I understand that any increase in agricultural rates will be treated as an increased cost of production. [An HON. MEMBER.: "Why not?"] I will tell the hon. Member. In any case agricultural rates are an increase of the subvention given to the growers of wheat. Is it quite fair to make all the rest of the community pay the rates of a particular and a very small class? It is not all the farmers, mind you, who will benefit by having their rates paid for them. It is only those farmers who produce wheat and oats. An increase in their rates—what does it matter? By the increased price of wheat you have got it back! These people have votes, votes for the county council, for the local bodies, and they know quite well that they can increase their rates as much as they like, and that they will escape. It really means that the rest of the community
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  have to pay the increased subvention in order to make up for the increase in the rates. That, I submit again, is a thoroughly unsound doctrine. That there should be a few ratepayers in the country who, if the rates move up, immediately and automatically get an increased price for their produce, seems to me to be a thoroughly vicious system. The whole of this guaranteed price is wrong. If there had to be a subsidy, if I were a protectionist, and believed it was necessary because of the prospect of future wars to increase the wheat production in this country, I would certainly plump for an acreage bonus on wheat farming, which would be definitely increasing the wheat production, instead of having merely guaranteed prices which would do nothing whatever to increase production, and which might hereafter either involve this country in a breach of promise—because I do not believe you will get the House of Commons indefinitely to pay a very large subsidy to the agricultural interests—or else involve us in a system of protection which the vast mass of the people are opposed to, and will have nothing whatever to do with it when consulted on the matter.
  In speaking as I have done I realise that I only represent a very small minority here. I do not speak even for the Labour party. I am quite certain, however, that I do speak for a good many people in this House who will not vote with me to-night, but who know that sound finance and sound economics are the basis of any real reconstruction in this country. There is no man here who does not hate this idea of fixing prices. If you go to Germany you see a country now in which the price of everything is fixed. Consequently in that country reconstruction is impossible, and the country is going daily more backward. Here, thank goodness, we have not got very many fixed prices. We all know what we have got and we want to get rid of it. In this Bill you are perpetuating this idea of fixed prices. I ask every sound economist to think twice before he supports this measure in the lobby, and before he shares definitely in putting upon the Statute Book, a Bill which probably every man believes to be unsound, but which they are voting for out of sheer desperation and sheer opportunism. I do not know whether I shall get a seconder to my Amendment,

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  but I am quite certain that all people who believe in free trade, and those who are economists, will agree that this Bill is a Bill which runs contrary to the traditions of Great Britain, and which ought to be thrown out to-night by an overwhelming majority.
  Mr. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to second the Amendment. It is with a certain amount of reluctance that I subscribe to the rejection of this Bill, but I do so because I feel that the solution of the agricultural problem submitted by the proposal of the Government is totally inadequate. During the course of this Debate reference has been made to the Corn Production Act. I would like to remind hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that when the Corn Production Bill was introduced it was justified on the ground that during the years between 1875 and 1895 the price of agricultural produce had been reduced to such a low point that it was necessary that the Government should give some guarantee for the purpose of getting the farmer to encourage the productivity of agricultural produce. The very opposite applies with regard to Denmark, because from 1875 to 1895, when we were going down to zero, Denmark had reached its zenith, with an admittedly worse climate and soil.
  It is our duty to ascertain why Denmark should touch the apex of its prosperity at the time we were touching the rock bottom. Until we introduce a Bill which will aim at the breakdown of land monopoly in this country it will be impossible to get the best results from the land, and it is from that standpoint that I associate myself with the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) in this Amendment. I think we all realise that a monopoly in land is the worst form of any monopoly, and if we can free the land so as to give free access to it by those who are eager to work on it, then we can not only produce sufficient for our national life, but an amplitude to meet the requirements of any future occasion. Any temporary measure of this character is bound to perpetuate this land monopoly, and it is from that standpoint that I support the rejection of this Bill.
  Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: The hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. A. Davies), in seconding this Amendment, said that in 1895, when Danish agricul-
  532
  ture had reached the zenith of its prosperity, British agriculture was at its nadir. I do not think the greatest prosperity of Danish agriculture had been reached up to 1895, but I ask the House to note the inference that is sought to be drawn from that fact. The hon. Member said it was the system of land tenure which is responsible for this result, by which I imagine he inferred that nationalisation was to be the solution.
  Mr. DAVIES: No, I suggest that in Denmark they placed taxes upon the land instead of upon the improvements, and they established a system which enabled small farmers to take advantage of the co-operative movement to assist them in the production and delivery of their products.
  Mr. SCOTT: May I point out that rather more than nine out of every ten of the farmers in Denmark are the occupying owners of their own farms, and I agree that that has a great deal to do with Danish prosperity? In regard to Danish co-operation, I agree that the principle of co-operation is vital in the interests of agriculture, and as Chairman of the Agricultural Organisation Society of this country and the Agricultural Wholesale Society, and being at the head of the agricultural co-operative movement in this country, I say, "Thank you" to my hon. Friend for the testimony he has given to the value of co-operation. The hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Wedgwood) who moved the rejection of this Bill said that the effect of this measure was that it was an infringement upon the principle of Free Trade. A measure which does not impose any import duties at all and which merely gives a measure of insurance against disaster to an industry which every one of us regards as vital to national prosperity cannot be regarded as an infringement of Free Trade. I think one lesson we have learned in the War is that certain industries are rightly regarded as key industries, and agriculture, of all others, is the industry which carries the key that unlocks the door to national health, prosperity, and well-being.
  The hon. Member suggested that it was contrary to the traditions of this House that a measure should be proposed enunciating a permanent policy which might affect the finances of the country for a period of years ahead. I am sure my hon.

  533
  and gallant Friend will forgive me if I say that he is wrong in his recollection of the traditions of this House. The first Income Tax Act, which was proposed provided for the imposition of the tax three years ahead, and in 1854 the same Act provided for its imposition seven years ahead.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes, but the House of Commons could repeal that, but here we are tying our hands.
  Mr. SCOTT: The House of Commons can repeal any Act, but an Act passed for the purpose of introducing a permanent policy in order that the country may have the advantage of permanence is an Act which has definite advantages, and which the House of Commons would be slow to repeal, although it has the power. I submit, therefore, that there is nothing in that point. There is no question here of the privileges of this House, and there is no possibility of them being infringed by this House passing any Act which it thinks fit to pass. This is simply a red herring which has nothing to do with the merits of this question. It is a question whether it is or is not desirable, in the interests of the country and the nation and the body politic, that this country should have an agriculture established for a period of years and be able to make its plans, which must necessarily be plans to last over a number of years ahead, with some security as to where they will stand in future years.
  The big question of principle involved is whether it is right or wrong in the interests of the nation that the agricultural industry should be told to-day the conditions under which it can look forward to conduct the industry for a number of years ahead. That is the essential question. Every agriculturist in this House for years past has complained of the difficulty of conducting this industry because of the uncertainty of the political climate, so to speak, in which it has had to carry on its operations. The farmers of this country have been used to dealing with the vagaries of the English climate as well as the vagaries of the English House of Commons, and they have complained, and now when agriculturists have asked with increasing persistency that a permanent policy should be adopted on certain definite lines, when the Government come to this House and propose a Bill which is per-
  534
  manent in its character, or, at any rate, has some measure of permanence on the very lines which the industry has asked it should be applied, it is complained that this proposal is objectionable because, forsooth, it looks ahead for more than a day, and makes provision so that the agricultural industry may conduct its operations in something like reasonable security. I venture to think that arguments against the Bill based on these lines will receive scant sympathy from a House which, in my belief, has made up its mind to give to the industry of agriculture that degree of security which the nation requires it should have in the national interest.
  Indeed, the fact that this Bill has been introduced shows a very great advance in public opinion as compared with a comparatively few years ago. Take the year before the War. It would have astounded the country had the Government then come forward and said, "We recognise that agriculture is an industry which conducts its operations on a rotation system which makes it necessary for those who invest their capital in it to know years ahead approximately where they will be, and for these reasons we propose to introduce a Measure of insurance for the industry which will last for years." The Government have done that to-day and that fact marks the greatest advance which has ever been made by a Government towards an industry upon which the social well-being, happiness and health of the race depends, more than any other industry. The hon. and gallant Member for Daventry (Captain Fitzroy) the Chairman of the Unofficial Agricultural Committee of this House, who presides over that Committee with high success and, as its Chairman, has obtained the confidence of all the Members to a remarkable degree, said, in his speech two days ago:
  "The principles underlying this Bill are perfectly sound. Those principles are four in number. First, there is the guaranteed minimum price; then there is the principle of the guaranteed wage; thirdly, there is the principle that the country will be secure of good cultivation; and, finally, there is the proposal to give greater security for the capital of those engaged in the industry."
  That was a perfectly fair and in my view absolutely true statement of the general characteristics of this Bill. I venture to think that these big features of the Bill—these four features—have largely been lost

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  sight of during this Debate. Many interesting questions have been discussed, but most of them have been merely Committee questions, while the broad features of the Bill have hardly been touched upon by the majority of the speakers. These four principles, my hon. and gallant Friend said were perfectly sound and he went on:
  "If we can be quite sure that those four principles will really be carried out in the provisions of this Bill, I think we might be content to believe that it will do something to put agriculture on a sound footing and to increase the food supply of this country."
  The right hon. Gentleman who Moved the Second Reading of this Bill, enunciated these four principles and said he believed they were sound and that the Bill put before the country a sound agricultural policy, and he added that if in Committee Amendments in detail were proposed the Government would consider them sympathetically. That shows that the Chairman of the Agricultural Committee of the House, representing some 100 Members, is in complete agreement with the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill as to the main principles of the Bill. Then my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for the Daventry Division, went on to say this:
  "But as far as I can understand it, none of these four principles will be secured by this Bill."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1920, Vol. 130, Col. 104.]
  I have the greatest respect for my hon. and gallant Friend, but I profoundly disagree with him in that comment. In my view, these four principles are successfully embodied in this Bill. Let us take them one by one and deal with them in their order. The first is the guaranteed minimum price. The essence, as I understand it, of a guaranteed minimum price is that it should be an insurance against disaster. It is not put forward as a Government subvention out of which farmers are to make large profits. Many of the speeches have treated it as an offer to the farmers to enable them to make profits. That, however, is not the proposal of the Bill. It is not the principle of the Report on Agricultural Policy of the Committee presided over by Lord Selborne, nor, for that matter, is it the principle of the Report which I and the Member for Norwich and Mr. E. Strutt were the signatories a year before the Agricultural Policy Report, which was
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  embodied in the Corn Production Act, 1917. The essence of that policy was that agricultural labourers should be paid a really decent wage, which, in many cases, before the War they had not been paid. Perhaps I may, without undue pride, remind the House that my name was on the back of the first Bill to provide a minimum wage for agricultural labourers which was introduced before the War. In order that farmers should be in a position to pay this wage, it is essential that they should be guaranteed against disaster.
  It is not the business of the State to provide profits for farmers. It is for the State to enable them to carry on their industry as any industry is carried on, on the merits of the case, having due regard to all economic conditions, making their own profits in their own way, but to prevent such disasters overtaking them as overtook agriculture in the '80's and '90's in the last century. The fear of bankruptcy, the fear that capital invested in arable farming may be lost, anxiety as to the future, and the desire to know where they are—these are the things that prevent farmers from investing much money in a type of farming that involves considerable capital, and which can only be conducted if you have some reasonable knowledge as to what the risks of the future are. That is what I call an insuring policy, and I venture to think that that is a sound policy, for it enables the farmers to cultivate their farms on the arable system of farming, to employ the number of men required in arable farming, and to pay the wages involved in the system of minimum wage legislation. If the community says to the industry, "We will undertake that you shall not be destroyed by world conditions over which you have no control, that you shall not be faced with sudden disaster," then it is reasonable and right that the nation should say to the farmers, "In return for that, we expect you to regard your holding as a holding in trust, in a certain sense, for the nation; and to recognise that you have a duty of good cultivation, a duty to make the most of the land, possession of which is entrusted to you." Thus, we come to the third main principle, the recognition of the duty to the public of good cultivation.
  Lastly, we have the principle of the security of the tenant farmer's capital. In regard to that, I invite the House to compare agriculture for a moment with

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  any big manufacturing business in this country. There are many manufacturers in this House. Would any one of them like to carry on his business on the terms that he might get a year's notice turning him out of the factory where he is carrying on his business? A friend of mine, who was an American, but is now a British subject, and who has had great experience of farming in America, has told me that the one thing that strikes him about British farming is the astounding fact that our farmers are not in absolute control of the permanent possession of the farms on which they carry on their industry. It is an astounding anomaly, and the only way of meeting it is either to give them fixity of tenure or to secure them their capital. The Bill adopts the latter method, and, in my judgment, absolutely rightly, for the reasons mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Mid-Antrim (Major O'Neill) and others. To give fixity of tenure is to introduce into this country a double system of ownership, which has attendant upon it unimaginable drawbacks. The moment you agree that double ownership of the soil is an impossible system, you are faced with the position that the only solution of this difficulty, in which farmers are in the conduct of their industry, that in many cases they are only tenants of their holdings, is to give them security of capital. I agree that some of the detailed provisions of Part II may be open to criticism on the ground that owners may be prevented from spending money on improvements and otherwise. That, however, is a Committee question. The broad feature of the position is that you can only give tenant farmers security by one of two methods—either fixity of tenure or security of capital. Ex hypothesi, fixity of tenure is ruled out, and the only alternative is security of capital.
  Therefore, I say that this Bill is right in regard to all its four main propositions, namely, insurance against disaster by a system of guaranteed prices, a minimum wage for agricultural labourers, a duty of good cultivation, and a system of security of capital. If you once concede that those four principles are right, the only questions before the House are questions appropriate, not to a Second Reading Debate, but to the Committee stage. It may be that there are minor alterations which will have to be made, but I venture
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  to submit that it is vital to concentrate on that broad aspect of the Bill which makes it a Bill put forward in the national interest, in order that agriculture may be carried on efficiently in this country, and that we may have a larger population upon our soil. That being the broad position, let me deal quite shortly with one or two of the criticisms. The main criticism that has been made against the Bill has been expressed in two ways. My hon. Friend the Member for the Holland Division (Mr. Royce) said that the Bill would not produce any more corn. The hon. and gallant Member for Daventry (Captain Fitzroy) and the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) said that not one single acre more would be brought under the plough, or under wheat—I forget how they put it exactly—by reason of this Bill. With great respect, that is a complete fallacy. If you give an owner of a ship an insurance, you enable him to conduct his enterprise in a sense of safety, and he would probably refuse to take his ship to sea unless he had the insurance. It is not, however, out of the insurance that he makes his profit; it is not for the sake of the insurance that he makes his voyage; and it is not for the sake of the insurance that he will get under this Bill that the farmer will go in for arable cultivation.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: He insures himself.
  Mr. SCOTT: If the hon. and gallant Member likes to deal with the matter by way of casual interjection, I will answer him on the same terms. At the beginning of the War, how many ships would have gone to sea unless the Government had introduced at once its system of Government insurance against war risks?
  Major MACKENZIE WOOD: Who paid the premiums?
  10.0 P.M.
  Mr. SCOTT: The Government paid three-quarters of the premium. The answer is that this Bill does enable the farmer to get his industry on to an economic basis. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Smith) two days ago complained that the Bill put the industry on a political basis, and that some future Government might withdraw it. That either amounts to this, that no Government of this country should ever have any agricultural policy, or it is no objection to this Bill. The whole industry has asked that a permanent agricultural policy

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  should be followed by the Government of this country, and to suggest that, because the Government introduces a Bill which will carry out that undertaking, therefore it must be wrong, because it puts the industry on what the hon. Member calls a political basis, is, I venture to submit, an idle, captious and foolish criticism. Under this Bill the industry will be able to carry on its business on the ordinary terms of making the most it can out of the market conditions and prospects at any given time, with this tremendous additional advantage, that, in making his calculations, the farmer will be always able to say to himself, "At any rate I am secured from the danger of those disasters that overtook my father." That is the substantial point of the whole Bill. To complain of the Bill on the ground that it does not itself in its provisions give the farmer any additional profit is to misunderstand it. It does not profess to give the farmer any additional profit; it leaves him to make his own profit out of good farming, and with the assistance of all those other advantages and aids to which the hon. Member for Wellingborough referred, such as agricultural education, research, the development of transport facilities, and, particularly, organisation and co-operation. The hon. Member complained because this Bill did not include within its four corners all those other subjects. That is no objection to the Bill, for the simple reason that it does not profess to deal with them. They are being already dealt with in other Acts and by administrative measures, with, I think we may say, a great degree of efficiency. On the Estimates for the Ministry of Agriculture we criticised the Ministry in many respects, but the right hon. Gentleman who was in charge of the Vote made a very good case as to the assistance which was being rendered to agriculture by the Ministry. In regard to agricultural co-operation I am at the head of the movement in this country and at least one-third of the farmers are already in co-operative societies, and a very large number of allotment holders also, and that organisation is being pushed very strenuously and is making very rapid strides, and I absolutely agree that the prosperity of British Agriculture in the long run depends upon the real effective development on business lines of agricultural co-opera-
  540
  tion. But that has nothing to do with the Bill and it is no complaint against the Bill that it does not deal with it.
  It is of the first importance that in considering this Bill we should remember its main principles, particularly on the Second Reading. No doubt there are one or two questions of importance which will have to be dealt with in Committee. A suggestion has been made, for instance, that the sliding scale of guaranteed prices should be based directly on wages instead of on the cost of production. Primâ facie, I think there is a great deal to be said for that, but I think the criticism of opponents of the Bill is to some extent based upon a misapprehension of what is really intended by the Bill. I think it is rather a natural misapprehension, because I do not think the wording of the Bill is very clear. In Clause 2, Sub-section (1) (a), it is provided that the sliding scale shall be based on the cost of production of wheat and oats in any years as compared with the cost in 1919. That sounds like an extraordinarily elaborate calculation every year as to what the cost of production is. I do not think a very elaborate calculation is involved. What is wanted is to see what change there is from year to year of a comparative kind in the cost of production. That is the only thing that is necessary. Supposing the cost of production in 1919 was 100, what you want to see is what in 1920 or 1921 is the percentage change. Is it 5 per cent. up or 5 per cent. down? You apply that percentage change to your 68s. That percentage change can be arrived at by a comparatively simple calculation. All you have to ascertain is the chief elements in the cost of production—wages, fertilisers, cost of cultivation, rates and the rent, which is a fixed item under the Bill.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: We were told that rent is left out.
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I was in error in saying it was left out in the original calculation. It was not left out in the original calculation, but it is left out in considering the variation.
  Mr. SCOTT: Clause 2, Sub-section (1) (b), says:
  "In ascertaining the variation in the cost of production, no account shall be taken of any variation of rent."

  541
  So that it remains as a fixed item. If the rent is £2 or £1 or 12s. an acre, that is a permanent factor. It is an element in the cost of production, though it is a permanent element. That calculation is one which most farmers can make approximately with accuracy. Any farmer, in any given year, will know approximately how much wages, fertilisers, and so on, have gone up, and he will not be left in ignorance of what the guaranteed price is going to be after the Commissioners have arrived at the result. He may be 5 per cent. out, but no more—not 5 per cent. of the original 100, but 5 per cent. of the change. He may make an error of one-twentieth in his estimate of the variation up or down. That is the proposal of the Bill. If the language of the Bill does not quite accurately express that, I am sure my right, hon. Friend will be willing, in Committee, to put that right, if I am right. Perhaps he will say, when he replies, whether my understanding of the provision in that respect is right or wrong. That is a perfectly simple system, and for practical purposes there is not much difference between a sliding scale based on that kind of average rise or fall of costs and an average rise or fall.
  Sir F. BANBURY: One would be made and would be easily understandable, and the other would not be made and would have to be made by the farmer.
  Mr. SCOTT: There is that difference, but it is only a comparatively small difference, and in Committee we can discuss which of the two methods is the better one. What I want to say on Second Reading is that it is not a very big point.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: Until the minimum prices operate there is no sliding scale at all.
  Mr. SCOTT: I agree that we are only concerned with calculations when the minimum price is to come into operation. That is a fundamental fact of the Bill. The whole question of guaranteed prices does not come in at all until the market gets down in the neighbourhood of or below the guaranteed prices. In the circumstances the real gist of the matter is that the industry is left free to work in the ordinary way with this at the back of its mind.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: There is the question of wages and cost of production.
  Mr. SCOTT: Of course, but I cannot say more than one thing at once. What I meant was that the question of guaranteed prices does not come in and the industry is left free qua guaranteed prices, merely with the knowledge that that is left in the background, but the wages go up and down. Does the right hon. Gentleman want to abolish the Minimum Wages Boards? If so, he is out of harmony with modern life.
  Sir F. BANBURY: It is not a bad thing to be out of harmony with modern life.
  Mr. SCOTT: Those of us who are always glad to find ourselves in harmony with the right hon. Baronet no doubt will share that view. Now, as to the duty of good cultivation. I advance the proposition that we cannot honestly expect any Government to introduce a permanent agricultural policy which does not contain as a cardinal tenet the doctrine that the owner and occupier of land has a duty to the nation of making the most of his land. The moment you concede to that you arrive at this position. You admit the obligation and inferentially you admit the duty and the right of the nation to enforce that obligation. Then the moment you concede that it becomes a question of detail as to the way in which you are to carry it out. On this subject of course there are many cases of land to which you cannot possibly apply a rigorous rule of arable cultivation or insist upon any particular method of cultivation. There are cases of light land where arable cultivation must inevitably produce a loss. The scheme of this Bill is not to impose upon the occupier of such land as that the duty of arable farming. It would be ridiculous if it did, and it will be the business of the House and the Committee to see that there is no chance of any such principle being imposed. When you have arrived at a principle that there is a duty, the question then arises as to the method of enforcing it. Those who say that we should drop that portion of the Bill are asking the House to drop an essential principle of the Bill which must be preserved. During the War we heard a great deal about Orders and we had a very large number of complaints as to the unreasonableness of ploughing orders. I

  543
  believe that out of 2,000,000 acres compulsorily ploughed up, of which 1,700,000 acres were ploughed up in the early spring months of 1917, from February onward, when the unrestricted submarine campaign had been announced by Germany, complaints were received only in respect of 7½ per cent. of the 2,000,000 acres. That shows how an exaggerated idea can get abroad. Out of the 7½ per cent., the 150,000 acres which it represented, I have little doubt that a great number of the farmers in the following year made very good crops because of the fertility stored up in the soil.
  Sir F. BANBURY: Is the hon. Member aware that when an attempt was made to complain the Local Agricultural Committee always came round and asked you not to complain? They did it with me.
  Mr. SCOTT: My right hon. Friend is a typical farmer, and we may assume that he, like many other farmers, may have resisted, but did not complain. My point is, that we do get a good deal of exaggeration. Since 1917 we have had a rule that good cultivation should be insisted upon, and methods of husbandry have to a certain extent been changed. There have been cases of mismanagement of estates, but I believe that the Ministry of Agriculture have received during the War and up to now, practically no complaints in regard to that part of the Corn Production Act and the enforcement of the D.O.R.A. Regulations. Certainly they have had astonishingly few complaints. I agree that farming cannot possibly be carried on under continual interference from a horde of inspectors or Committees. It is an impossibility; but, whilst recognising that, I ask quite definitely, by way of challenge, how are you going to insist on this duty of good cultivation unless you give some powers to somebody? In Committee, no doubt, those who object to this part of the Bill will have constructive proposals for enforcing the duty of good cultivation which will obviate the possibility of any interference by any inspector or any county committee, but I do say that the burden is on those who complain of these proposals to suggest a better system than that which is contained in the Bill.
  I have dealt with the broad principles of the Bill. The hon. Member for New-
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  castle-under-Lyme dealt with Part II., and he said that one great desideratum in this country was the increased marketability of land. I completely agree. I believe that this Bill will tend to make more owners anxious to farm their own land. That will be an advantage to the nation. On the whole it is better that the man who owns the land should farm it and that the man who farms the land should own it. If this Bill has that indirect effect it will be all to the good. I recognise, and I hope that something may be done in Committee to deal with the point, that under this Bill there will be many cases of very great hardship upon owners. It will make the ownership of estates very difficult in many cases. I hope that something may be done in Committee to modify those drawbacks. On those broad lines and without discussing the question as to whether the figure of 68s. is the right figure, and without referring to any other details of the Measure, I submit that the Bill is one which it is in the national interests to pass in order that we may have a permanent policy, recognised by all the farmers as such, and which indirectly will result in greater enterprise by farmers, because they will know they are insured, and consequently will lead to greater arable cultivation and a larger population on the land.
  Mr. TOWNLEY: Those of us who have the interests of agriculture in our hearts and bones could undoubtedly devote a very long time to addressing the House on this subject. I propose to speak briefly on one Clause only, not because I am not deeply interested in the rest of the Bill, but because I know the House wishes to hear the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary. I heartily congratulate him on the very lucid exposition of the Bill he gave to us, and I, as one who has been interested in agriculture all my life, am prepared to give him hearty support on the main principles of the Bill, taking into consideration the fact that he has asked for criticism and amendment in Committee. I want to deal with Clause 16. I take it as a direct invitation to tenants to plough up their pastures. The last speaker said there were practically no complaints from farmers or owners against ploughing up orders under the Defence of the Realm Act. There were very few complaints, because farmers and landowners realised

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  that they were acting in the interests of their country in producing food during a time of need. Further than that, farmers who ploughed up their land were guaranteed against loss by the country. Now it is different. There is no guarantee against loss. There are three sorts of farmers. There are those who have high land and few water meadows. It will be very disastrous to those farms if the water meadows are ploughed up. There are farms which have no pasture whatsoever. They will not be affected. There are farms which have no arable land, and have no buildings, and are all pasture. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do with those farms which are now all pasture, when orders come along for a change in the methods of cultivation and for the ploughing up of the grass? You cannot cultivate much of the old pasture land of England with profit unless you build above ground and underground, that is to say, drain, and building is very expensive. You cannot keep up fertility unless you have buildings. Any man can plough up pasture land and make a big profit for four or five years, and, when he has exhausted the fertility of the soil, can hand the land back to the owner. That owner has been called upon to put up expensive buildings and to drain, and who is going to compensate him for the loss of money he has invested in those buildings on land which has been robbed of its fertility? You are only going to have a four years' guarantee, which, I maintain, is nothing like sufficient for the purpose of pasture land. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot see his way to alter this Clause so as to provide that no pasture land shall be ploughed up without the consent of the owner and the Agricultural Committee.
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I would ask the permission of the House to be allowed to reply to some of the very many points which have been raised during this Debate, even though I am conscious of the fact that I spoke at very considerable length when I moved the Second Reading of the Bill. Speaking generally, I am very gratified at the reception which this Bill has had. It is quite true we have had a good deal of detailed criticism. We have had a good deal of criticism of an important character which has been very largely the sort of criticism which can be
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  dealt with in the Committee stage, and much of it has really been mutually destructive. For example, many of my hon. Friends on this side have objected to Part 2 of the Bill as going too far in the direction of security of tenure and dual ownership. On the other hand, my hon. Friend the Member for Kinross (Mr. J. Gardiner) and other hon. Members have criticised it for not going far enough. Therefore I think we may claim that in this matter as in a good many other matters we have succeeded in holding the balance fairly even between the parties interested. Apart from that we have had very little criticism of the main principles of the Bill. We have had some very excellent speeches delivered enthusiastically in support of the Bill, including very good maiden speeches by the hon. Member for Basingstoke A. Holbrook) and the hon. Member for the Northern Division of Dorset (Major Colfox). We have, had no attempt to move the rejection of the Bill until the very last moment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: It was the first time we got a chance.
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Nobody else took the chance when they might have done so. I admit that my hon. Friend objects to the whole Bill. There is nothing very unusual about that. It might have happened in the case of any other Bill. His position, I candidly confess, leaves me entirely cold. Let me deal with the main points, but before I do so may I say there is one speech I did regret and that was the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Daventry (Captain Fitzroy)? I know he has done splendid work for agriculture, and in referring to his speech I do so more in sorrow than in anger. I do think he opposed the Bill in a manner which certainly was not what I expected and which appeared to me to be somewhat inconsistent with the remarks he had previously made. I would put it at all events to my hon. and gallant Friend and to those members of the Agriculture Committee, some of whom have appeared to oppose the Bill, or parts of the Bill, rather severely, that they have repeatedly asked me in this House when we were going to introduce our Bill, and they have pressed me time after time. I am not going to complain of that; I think they had reason for complaining of the delay; but they knew the sort of Bill we should have to introduce; they knew it would be

  547
  based on the speech of the Prime Minister at the Caxton Hall, they must have anticipated practically what the proposals would be; and I put it to them that when we produce our Bill it is hardly up to them to object to the Bill in the manner that some of them have, especially as I venture to say they have not put forward any constructive proposals of their own. The Bill at all events is the Bill that we were challenged to produce, which we now have produced, and which I venture to say follows the lines that must have been anticipated. I do appeal to them in the fullest spirit of comradeship. I have made them a very fair offer; I have said I am not wedded to every clause or detail of the Bill; I have said I am prepared to consider it in detail and to take full account of every reasonable amendment which is moved; I have asked them to co-operate with me to improve the Bill as far as we can; but I must appeal to them to enter into that bargain in the same spirit and not to try to destroy the Bill by a shower of destructive criticism.
  Let me very briefly go through the principal objections that have been raised to the Bill. We have been told by the hon. and gallant Member for Daventry and others that the Bill will fail because it will not add a single acre of arable land to this country. That is a mere prophecy, and if that sort of prophecy is made, I would ask why there has been this persistent demand for guaranteed prices for cereals coming from the very Members who are now making this prediction. The Bill follows precisely the lines that were recommended by the Selborne Report and by the Report of the Royal Commission that sat last year, not that we should guarantee a profit—that is not the duty of the State—but that we should try to give confidence to the farmer to plough up his land and to maintain as much land as possible under the plough by guaranteeing him against the serious loss that overcame his predecessors in the disastrous years of 1880 to 1906. We believe, as the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool (Mr. L. Scott) said, that if we give that amount of confidence he will go forward to enjoy prices which we believe for some years to come will rule considerably above these guaranteed minima, knowing that,
  548
  if there should come a break in prices, that disaster which overtook his predecessors will not overtake him, and I believe that will give the necessary confidence to produce a great deal more arable land in this country than we have had in the past.
  That was the policy of the Corn Production Act, and I venture to claim that that Act was successful. A great deal of land was ploughed up and a great deal more wheat and oats were grown, not necessarily entirely in consequence of the Corn Production Act, but as part of the policy to which the Corn Production Act contributed materially between 1916 and 1918. I find that the tillage of this country between those two years increased by 1,750,000 acres, and the acreage of wheat was increased by 750,000 acres, and of oats by 1,500,000 acres. Then I am sometimes told that it was all done wrong; that the wrong land was ploughed up; that the result was absolutely ridiculous. If you take the increased produce between the years I have just mentioned you will find that the wheat grown in this country increased from 7,500,000 quarters to 11,500,000 quarters, and oats from 21,000,000 to 31,000,000 quarters, and although I am not going to pitch my case too high and say that that admirable result was all due to the Corn Production Act, I do emphatically say that the confidence induced in the mind of the farmer by the knowledge that we were standing behind him, and would not let him down—would not, at all events, let that great disaster overtake him which overtook him in years gone by—certainly contributed largely to the increased production during that period. I certainly think myself this Bill will have the same kind of effect, and the prediction, which is a mere prophecy based upon nothing, that this Bill will not produce another quarter of wheat or oats in this country is a prediction which will not bear a moment's investigation.
  I will come to the next point—the objection to the amount of the guarantees and the objection to the method of fixing the guarantees. With regard to the amount, of course, I quite expected we should be asked for more. It would never do for farmers in this country to say they were satisfied with the amount put in a Bill. Certainly, I could hardly expect they would. But when my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Grin-

  549
  stead (Mr. Cautley) tells me that the amounts we have put in are wrong, and the amounts he suggested are right, I can only say he was a member of the Royal Commission and eleven members of the Royal Commission recommended the amount we put in the Bill, and he alone recommended the figure he would have put into the Bill. Although I have the greatest respect for his knowledge and experience, it is really asking too much to suggest that we are to take his figure as necessarily the right figure, in view of the fact that eleven of his colleagues—the only other colleagues who recommended guaranteed prices at all—suggested other figures altogether. No, Sir, we cannot go back upon the figures which have been suggested by the large majority of the Royal Commission. But there is this further point, and I realise this is a difficulty. It is said that, because in the Bill we say 68s. for wheat and 46s. for oats, therefore the farmers are running away with the idea that those are to be their guaranteed minimum prices. It is not so. They were the prices arrived at by the Royal Commission for the year 1919, and the way it was arrived at was this: It has been said that they took the figures for 1918, that they did not take into account the undoubted increase in the cost of production between 1918 and 1919, that they did not take into account the fact that wages went up considerably in the interval. That is not the case. This is what they said:
  "We have arrived at these figures after considering a large body of evidence as to the actual costs obtaining in 1917–18, that being the last year for which adequate data were available. We have then applied to our estimate of the average bare costs of production in that year the increase which the evidence indicates as having accrued between the costs of production in 1917–18 and 1918–19, in this case disregarding any increase or diminution in rent. The guranteed prices for each year should be published by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries not later than the end of the calendar year, on the necessary information being supplied to them by the Agriculture Costings Committee."
  This figure, which was arrived at by taking the costs in 1917–18 and adding on the estimated increase for the following year, is the datum line. Each year the Commissioners will ascertain, as my hon. and learned Friend said, what has been the proportionate increase of cost since the year 1919, and if the cost has gone up, say, 5 per cent., the guaranteed price will
  550
  go up 5 per cent. If the cost has gone down 10 per cent., the guaranteed price will go down 10 per cent. As a matter of fact, we know pretty well that the cost has gone up very considerably since 1919. I am not going to give any figures—it would be most improper if I attempted to do so—but it is quite untrue to suppose that 68s. is the guaranteed price for wheat or 46s. the guaranteed price for oats. It is quite true that the farmer will not know the figure until after the harvest. We realise that fact; and we realise the difficulty. We knew that it might create some uncertainty. I do not mind saying that in the first draft of the Bill we adopted a different plan. We said that we would take in each year the ascertained cost of production and the guaranteed price for the year before. What would have been the result? At a time like this, when costs are going up, the guaranteed price would have lagged behind, and immediately we should have had an outcry that the guaranteed prices were insufficient. We were obliged, therefore, in order that the actual cost of the year should be reflected in the guaranteed prices, to adopt this system, though I admit that it has the inconvenience that the farmer will not know the actual figure till after the harvest.
  Mr. RONALD McNEILL: Can my right hon. Friend say what was the actual rate of wages in 1918?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I think that I am right in saying—I speak entirely from memory—that the average minimum wage at the time that the Royal Commission was sitting was 39s. 6d., but, after all, that really is not a matter of importance, because whatever rise there has been since will be reflected in the guaranted prices of subsequent years. Some hon. Members—I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), who speaks with great authority on these questions—have suggested that, instead of taking cost of production, we ought to take merely the question of wages. Is that a sound thing to do? What are wages? I do not think that anyone would say that they are more than 40 per cent. of the cost. I should say that 40 per cent. is about the figure. There are other things the prices of which may go up or down. The tendency of modern ways is for a more extensive use of machinery,

  551
  and it is a very good thing, too. The result may be that the percentage of wages may go down and the cost of machinery go up. If you tie your guaranteed prices only to wages, you may bring about results that will not be at all what the farmer desires.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: That is not what I proposed. I did not propose a guaranteed price depending only on wages. I proposed a sliding scale whereby up-and-down wages and price would go together. That is quite a different thing.
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: I may be very stupid, but it seems to me that is the same thing. If the price goes up as wages go up and if it goes down as wages go down, then you are taking wages only into account and leaving out other important considerations. May I say that I am not necessarily wedded to the plan in this Bill. When we were drafting the Bill, we considered various plans. On the whole, I prefer this plan, and I think it is the best. There, again, I am quite prepared to go into the matter in Committee, and certainly we will adopt whatever appears to those most experienced in these matters to be the best plan.
  Another point has been raised. Why, we have been asked, did we leave barley out of the Bill? The Royal Commission, it is said, recommended its inclusion. We left it out, first of all because we wanted to limit our liabilities. Secondly—and this is the main point—our object is not so much the production of wheat and oats as the maintenance of a large amount of arable land for the general purposes of farming—for the dairy, for potatoes. As was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland)—and it could not have been put better—the idea of picking out wheat and oats is that they are essential ingredients for arable rotation. You do that in the belief that it will make arable rotation reasonably profitable, and not unreasonable for farmers to maintain. We think we can maintain a large amount of tillage in this country by confining the guarantee to wheat and oats, and having regard to the very large commitments of the country, we feel that it is only right to limit our liabilities by not including barley in the Bill. My hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Welling-
  552
  borough (Mr. W. R. Smith), objected altogether to guaranteed prices. I do not think he objected to the establishment and permanence of the Wages Board. I tell him, and I tell the House, that if you are going to interfere with agriculture by the existence of the Wages Board—which I do not object to—I think it is right—as a corollary, you must give guaranteed prices—
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Why? What about other industries?
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: What other industry is there where a Government Department is fixing wages in the manner suggested here?
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: There are the sweated trades!
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: Oh, yes, the sweated trades, but they are a totally different thing.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Of course they are!
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: At all events, I stand by my position. I am quite content to have the opposition of my hon. and gallant Friend; in fact, I am glad to have it.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Because you cannot answer!
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: If you interfere with farming to the extent of having an Agricultural Wages Board it follows of necessity, to my mind, that you must give guaranteed prices to the farmers. I link that point with another objection made by several hon. Members—the objection to the control of cultivation. If you have a Wages Board you must have guaranteed prices. If these latter involves a liability to the State, you must give the State a certain amount of control.
  Captain FITZROY: Not control of good husbandry!
  Sir A. BOSCAWEN: At all events, we establish a tripartite position. There is the wages guarantee—that is for the labourer. There is the prices guarantee—that is for the farmer. There is a certain control of cultivation—that is in the interests of the nation. What is this control? This part of the Bill dealing with control has, I should think, been probably more denounced by some hon. Gentlemen in this House than any other part. It might be thought that for the first time

  553
  we were imposing a heavy, severe, and disastrous control upon the farming industry, but we are doing nothing of the kind, because, as a matter of fact, we are largely freeing the industry by this Bill. The control we put in it is not only very much less than the control under D.O.R.A., but it is a great deal less than the control that exists under the Corn Production Act. [An HON. MEMBER: "That was a temporary war measure."] Yes, but it goes on for another three years, and many of my hon. Friends have frequently asked me whether I could not get it made permanent. It is common knowledge that Members of the Agricultural Committee have frequently asked for the making permanent of guarantees.
  It never was suggested that they meant to drop out of the Act those measures of control which exist at the present time. There are three kinds of control mentioned in this Bill. First of all there is control to ensure good husbandry. I am sure nobody objects to that. If the State gives guarantees, the least the State can do is to see that the land is cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry. Secondly, there is an obligation upon owners to execute such repairs as are absolutely necessary for the proper cultivation of the farm. Does anybody object to that? If the farmer cannot properly farm because his landlord does not execute those repairs, surely nobody can defend that position? As I have stated before, we do not propose in this Bill anything in the nature of new buildings or improvements. This measure deals simply with repairs to existing buildings and the equipment necessary for proper farming.
  Then there is the third point, the change of cultivation. As regards that the proposals we are making are very much milder than the proposals in the Corn Production Act under which we can demand a change of cultivation of any kind in the national interest, but in this Bill we limit it and say that it shall only be such change as will not injuriously affect persons interested in the land. That is a very great modification of the present system and so far from tightening up control we are loosening it in that respect. Another point raised is that we no longer give compensation. No, because there is an appeal against the order. When we gave compensation it worked unjustly to the State in many cases. If the farmer,
  554
  under ordinary circumstances, makes a loss through the weather he has to stand by it, but we had to give compensation, and there are lots of cases where, through purely accidental reasons, we ought not to have had to pay, because under ordinary circumstances the farmer would have to bear the loss. Now we say we will not insist on a general change of cultivation unless it is proved to an independent arbitrator that the change proposed will not injuriously affect the owner and occupier of the land. I venture to say that that is a really very moderate proposal and so far from tightening up the control which exists at present we are really loosening it in this Bill.
  I must say one word about Part II., which deals with tenure. Nobody knows the difficulty more than I do. Nobody realises more than I do that under the old order of landlords there was in practice the finest security of tenure possible, but, as my hon. Friend said, owing to hard times, owing to heavy taxation, owing to Income Tax and Super-tax, owing to the cost of repairs having trebled, owing to all these things, it is impossible for landowners now to retain their estates and to make both ends meet. The result has been these sales all over the country, which have caused almost a panic among farmers in some parts of the country. The old feudalism, the old paternal system, has largely been destroyed. We have to deal with a new condition of things and to secure to the tenant farmer that his capital shall not be confiscated as a consequence of these changes in ownership. I am not saying that the change in ownership is in itself bad; in some ways it may be very good. In some ways it may mean the introduction of new capital to the land which is most valuable. In other ways it will mean the purchase of farms by the tenants and the creation of what I hope will be a splendid race of occupying owners. For the time being there is all this uncertainty which has to be removed. The question is a most difficult one. I entirely agree with the statement made by my right hon. Friend opposite the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) in the course of his most interesting and admirable speech this evening. We must try to steer a middle course. We must not injure the just owner of the land. We must not

  555
  allow the unjust owner to despoil the tenant. We have tried in this Bill to hold the balance as evenly and as fairly as we can between landlord and tenant. We have most deliberately put on one side what is called security of tenure, because we do not believe in the dual ownership which operated so disastrously in Ireland. We do, however, think that by securing to the tenant farmer his capital, by securing that if he has to leave his farm for no fault of his own he shall not lose in fact by the transaction, we go as far as we ought to do. It may be we have gone too far. My right hon. Friend raised the question of one year's rent. I am quite prepared to consider that. I am quite prepared to consider all these questions on their merits. I want to hold the balance perfectly fairly and squarely. I do not want to see the tenant despoiled; neither do I want to deal unjustly with the landlord. Nor do I want to stop the flow of capital to the land.
  There are, of course, many other points I could deal with. A great many other questions have been raised, but the House will not expect me to deal with them at this late hour. What I do say is this. I ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading. I believe it is based on principles which are unassailable. It aims at placing agriculture on a basis of permanent security, not specially for the benefit of agriculturists, but in the interests of the nation as a whole. Whatever alterations can be made to improve the Bill in detail will receive full consideration. In the meantime I claim that this Bill of the Government, and this policy, hold the field. I ask the House to endorse it, and, in view of the fact that we have already had a long Debate, I would appeal to the House, especially in view of the fact that there will be other opportunities of debating, in Committee and so on, to give us the Second Reading as soon as possible.
  Major M. WOOD: This is a Bill which applies to Scotland, and only three Members from Scotland have been able to take part in the Debate. Therefore I
  think I may take a few minutes to place before the House one or two matters particularly pertaining to Scotland. In my part of the country—in Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, and Morayshire—the farmers in the higher districts are continually in the unfortunate position of having no crops to harvest. The seasons there are very late, and there are continual frosts before the crops are able to ripen, so that it would not matter to them whether you gave them a guarantee of £100 a quarter for oats instead of the 46s. proposed in the Bill. This is to me an example of the dangers of setting up guaranteed prices for one crop. There is no reason why you should confine your guarantee to wheat and oats, and not extend it to other crops. It may sound an extravagant demand, but it will undoubtedly be made by these farmers, that they should participate in the guarantee which is going to be given to farming in the near future. They will ask that they also should be guaranteed against loss every year, just as the large farmer in the South is guaranteed in the matter of his wheat. The demand is bound to come, and is logically right. There is no real difference between the one case and the other. Another question which affects Scotland particularly is that of security of tenure. We complain that the security of tenure offered in this Bill does not carry out the pledges given to the nation by the Prime Minister at Caxton Hall. We have already a form of security of tenure in Scotland which would satisfy the agricultural interest there. It is the security of tenure which is given to the smallholders in Scotland under the Landholders Bill of 1911. That is all that farmers in Scotland would have asked for. There is one part of this Bill on which particularly I congratulate the Secretary for Scotland, to whom, I suppose, its inclusion is due. That is the provision by which the arbitration under this Bill is going to be undertaken in Scotland by the Land Court.
  Sir A. BOSCAWENrose in his place and claimed to move, "That, the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided: Ayes, 190; Noes, 42.

  Division No. 130.]

  AYES.

  [10.59 p.m.

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Barrie, Hugh Thom. (Lon'derry, N.)

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Bennett, Thomas Jewell

  Atkey, A. R.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Barrie, Charles Coupar

  Billing, Noel Pemberton-

  Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

  Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

  Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

  Pulley, Charles Thornton

  Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Purchase, H. G.

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

  Rae, H. Norman

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Rankin, Captain James S

  Brassey, Major H. L. C.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

  Breese, Major Charles E.

  Hinds, John

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  Broad, Thomas Tucker

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Reid, D. D.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hope, H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n, W.)

  Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell)

  Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

  Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

  Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

  Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

  Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Rogers, Sir Hallewell

  Carew, Charles Robert S.

  Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Carr, W. Theodore

  Howard, Major S. G.

  Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

  Coats, Sir Stuart

  Hudson, R. M.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Seager, Sir William

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Jesson, C.

  Seddon, J. A.

  Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

  Jodrell, Neville Paul

  Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

  Coote, William (Tyrone, South)

  Johnson, L. S.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Courthope, Major George L.

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

  Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

  Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Starkey, Captain John R.

  Dawes, Commander

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Dockrell, Sir Maurice

  Kidd, James

  Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Edgar, Clifford B.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Edge, Captain William

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

  Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

  Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

  Sutherland, Sir William

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  Lloyd, George Butler

  Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

  Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

  Elveden, Viscount

  Lynn, R. J.

  Townley, Maximilian G.

  Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

  M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

  Tryon, Major George Clement

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Waddington, R.

  Fell, Sir Arthur

  Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

  Wallace, J.

  Fildes, Henry

  Moles, Thomas

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A.

  Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Weston, Colonel John W.

  Foreman, Henry

  Morison, Thomas Brash

  Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Morrison, Hugh

  Wigan, Lieut.-Colonel John Tyson

  Forrest, Walter

  Mount, William Arthur

  Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

  Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

  Gange, E. Stanley

  Nail, Major Joseph

  Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

  Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

  Neal, Arthur

  Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

  Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

  Green, Albert (Derby)

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W)

  O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

  Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Greer, Harry

  Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

  Wilson-Fox, Henry

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Parker, James

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

  Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

  Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

  Hancock, John George

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Hanna, George Boyle

  Pratt, John William

  NOES.

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Holmes, J. Stanley

  Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Lawson, John J.

  Swan, J. E.

  Brace, Rt. Hon. William

  Lunn, William

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Brown, Captain D. C.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Finney, Samuel

  Myers, Thomas

  Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Newbould, Alfred Ernest

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Grundy, T. W.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Major Mackenzie Wood and Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Sexton, James

  Bill read a Second time.

  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[Mr. Billing.]
  The House divided: Ayes, 45; Noes, 185.

  Division No. 131.]

  AYES.

  [11.12 p.m.

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Holmes, J. Stanley

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

  Johnstone, Joseph

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

  Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Sexton, James

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Brace, Rt. Hon. William

  Lawson, John J.

  Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Lunn, William

  Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

  Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Swan, J. E.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Finney, Samuel

  Meysey-Thompson, Lieut.-Col. E. C.

  Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

  Galbraith, Samuel

  Morgan, Major D. Watts

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

  Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Myers, Thomas

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Newbould, Alfred Ernest

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  O'Grady, Captain James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hirst, G. H.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Mr. Pemberton Billing and Mr. Palmer.

  Noes.

  Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

  Green, Albert (Derby)

  Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

  Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

  Atkey, A. R.

  Greer, Harry

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Pratt, John William

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Pulley, Charles Thornton

  Barnett, Major R. W.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Purchase, H. G.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Rae, H. Norman

  Barrie, Hugh Thom (Lon'derry, N.)

  Hancock, John George

  Rankin, Captain James S.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes)

  Hanna, George Boyle

  Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

  Bennett, Thomas Jewell

  Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

  Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

  Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

  Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

  Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

  Reid, D. D.

  Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

  Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

  Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell)

  Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

  Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

  Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

  Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

  Hinds, John

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Breese, Major Charles E.

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Broad, Thomas Tucker

  Hope, H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn'n, W.)

  Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Brown, Captain D. C.

  Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

  Seager, Sir William

  Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Moseley)

  Seddon, J. A.

  Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

  Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere

  Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Howard, Major S. G.

  Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

  Carew, Charles Robert S.

  Hudson, R. M.

  Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

  Carr, W. Theodore

  Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

  Starkey, Captain John R.

  Coats, Sir Stuart

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Jesson, C.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Jodrell, Neville Paul

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

  Johnson, L. S.

  Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

  Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

  Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Sutherland, Sir William

  Coote, William (Tyrone, South)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Courthope, Major George L.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

  Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

  Kidd, James

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.)

  Townley, Maximilian G.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

  Tryon, Major George Clement

  Dawes, Commander

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

  Waddington, R.

  Dockrell, Sir Maurice

  Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

  Wallace, J.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Lloyd, George Butler

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Edgar, Clifford B.

  Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Edge, Captain William

  Lynn, R. J.

  Weston, Colonel John W.

  Edwards, Allen C. (East Ham, S.)

  M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

  Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

  Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Wigan, Lieut.-Colonel John Tyson

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Moles, Thomas

  Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

  Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

  Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Morison, Thomas Brash

  Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

  Fell, Sir Arthur

  Morrison, Hugh

  Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

  Fildes, Henry

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

  FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A.

  Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

  Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

  Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

  Foreman, Henry

  Neal, Arthur

  Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Wilson-Fox, Henry

  Forrest, Walter

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

  Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

  Gange, E. Stanley

  Oman, Charles William C.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

  O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

  Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

  Parker, James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

  Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  AGRICULTURE [EXPENSES].
  Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the remuneration and expenses of the Commissioners to be appointed under any Act of the present Session to amend the Corn Production Act, 1917, and the enactments relating to agricultural holdings, and of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, and by any other Department, in meeting payments in respect of wheat or oats of the year 1921, or any subsequent year, under Part I of the Corn Production Act, 1917, as amended and continued by such Act of the present Session, and any expenses incurred by such Minister or Department, or any other body under any other provision of the said Act as so amended and continued (King's Recommendation signified) To-morrow.—[Mr. Boner Law.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres-Monsell.]
  Mr. G. THORNE: May I ask the Leader of the House what business will be taken to-morrow?
  Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): It was the intention to have had the India Vote of Supply to-morrow, but it is known that a great deal of the discussion would have been as to the position of General Dyer, and, as that has been submitted to the Army Council, there can be no free discussion in regard to a matter which is sub judice. We propose therefore to postpone that vote, but it will be taken at the earliest possible moment, and I hope that it may be possible to do so next week.
  In its place the business to-morrow will be: The first Order, the Firearms Bill; the Ecclesiastical Tithe Rentcharge (Rates) Bill; the Imperial War Museum Bill, Report; and the Dangerous Drugs Bill; and, if there be time, any other Bills on the Paper.
  Sir D. MACLEAN: I think the House will have some reason to complain of the fact that this Debate, which was anticipated, is not to take place. The complaint, which I think we are justified in making, is that the Government ought to have foreseen, when this arrangement was made, that the course of action which General Dyer has taken, well within his rights, would necessarily preclude a Debate taking place in this House, in which His Majesty's Ministers could take part. I am sure that no hon. Members would wish to make any statement in this House which would prejudice the right of General Dyer to have a fair hearing before the Army Council. Whatever point of view hon. Members may hold, I am quite sure I am voicing the feelings of all of them when I say that they would desire to do nothing that would prejudice the exercise of his right to lay his case before his superiors in the Army. But I do say to my right hon. Friend that, in view of the great public interest which has been aroused not only here, but in India, he should exercise all the powers which he possesses to expedite that hearing, so that their decision should be given at the earliest possible moment, and so that the House should be at liberty to exercise its function of criticism on the whole of these proceedings.
  I suppose the proceeding before the Army Council would not necessarily be of a lengthy character, that a statement will be made by the officer concerned, and that the Army Council will be able, after a quite brief consideration, to come to their decision or, at any rate, to take such action as will liberate His Majesty's Ministers and the House to the free discussion of the matter. There is one other point—about the occasion on which the discussion will take place. We are anxious to discuss other matters on the Vote for the India Office than that of the Amritzar affair, and I would suggest that the Government should give us a day, and that it should not be a Supply Day for that purpose. I do not press for an answer now, but we will urge our views on the matter through the usual channels.
  There is another matter I wish to raise. Has the Government any information which, as I hope, will wholly discredit the rumour that has appeared in the Press

  563
  to-night, of a reverse to British forces in Persia?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: As regards the last question of the right hon. Gentleman, we have no information whatever to justify the statement which appears in the Press. I feel quite confident that there is no foundation for it. But its possible basis is this, that some time ago in pursuance of the policy which we have carried out throughout of limiting our commitments as far as possible in the East, we removed a very small garrison from Resht. I think that is the sole justification for the statement.
  As regards the India Debate, I quite agree that there must be no unreasonable delay, and I can promise that there will be none on the part of the Army Council. We must give General Dyer a reasonable amount of time to state his case. I have discussed this matter with the Secretary of State for War this afternoon, and he can fully undertake that a very few days at the outside will be required, after the statement is received, to enable the Army Council to come to a decision.
  Mr. BILLING: May I ask whether the House will have an opportunity of seeing General Dyer's statement before the Debate takes place, or will it be a private
  564
  document; and is it proposed to make it a full-dress Debate, or how is it proposed to introduce it?
  Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: May I ask the Leader of the House if he can give us a day for the discussion of the Amritsar question, and take the India Office Vote upon another occasion, because there are many other things to discuss on the India Office Vote?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I did not think it necessary to reply to that question, because the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) said he would press it through the ordinary channels. If it be the wish of the Opposition to have two days of Supply on this—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—then we will duscuss that elsewhere. I do not think it is reasonable, and, indeed, I should be surprised, if a statement to the Army Council was ever made public. Therefore, I can give no promise.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to prevent ex parte statements being made, while this case is sub judice, by high Indian officials in the Press?
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.

  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  INVALIDED MEN.
  INVALIDED MEN.
  BRIGHOUSE WAR PENSIONS SUBCOMMITTEE.
  BRIGHOUSE WAR PENSIONS SUBCOMMITTEE.
  DISABLED MEN (OUT-PATIENT TREATMENT).
  DISABLED MEN (OUT-PATIENT TREATMENT).
  PENSION ISSUE OFFICE (PRECAUTIONS).
  PENSION ISSUE OFFICE (PRECAUTIONS).
  AWARDS AND PAYMENTS (CHECKS).
  AWARDS AND PAYMENTS (CHECKS).
  LOCAL PENSION OFFICERS.
  LOCAL PENSION OFFICERS.
  GAS UNDERTAKINGS.
  GAS UNDERTAKINGS.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  COMPANIES (BRITISH TITLES).
  COMPANIES (BRITISH TITLES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  RE-CLOTHING.
  RE-CLOTHING.
  APPLICATION FOR RELEASE (PRIVATE HUGH KERR, 1ST ROYAL SCOTS).
  APPLICATION FOR RELEASE (PRIVATE HUGH KERR, 1ST ROYAL SCOTS).
  MEDICAL BOARDS, EGYPT.
  MEDICAL BOARDS, EGYPT.
  WAR OFFICE COMMITTEES.
  WAR OFFICE COMMITTEES.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  AIRSHIP STATION, POLEGATE.
  AIRSHIP STATION, POLEGATE.
  BILLETING ALLOWANCE.
  BILLETING ALLOWANCE.
  SEAPLANE STATION, LEE-ON-SOLENT.
  SEAPLANE STATION, LEE-ON-SOLENT.
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  COMMERCIAL STUDENTS, PORTSMOUTH.
  COMMERCIAL STUDENTS, PORTSMOUTH.
  TRAINING SCHOOL, BRISTOL (INQUIRY AND REPORT).
  TRAINING SCHOOL, BRISTOL (INQUIRY AND REPORT).
  INDUSTRIAL COURT AWARDS.
  INDUSTRIAL COURT AWARDS.
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  SUGAR.
  SUGAR.
  DAIRY FARMER'S CLAIM (MR. CRUMPLER, YEOVIL).
  DAIRY FARMER'S CLAIM (MR. CRUMPLER, YEOVIL).
  FRUIT PRESERVATION (ALLOTMENT HOLDERS)
  FRUIT PRESERVATION (ALLOTMENT HOLDERS)
  RESTAURANT PRICES.
  RESTAURANT PRICES.
AGRICULTURE.
  CORN PRODUCTION ACT (LAUGHARNE PROSECUTION).
  CORN PRODUCTION ACT (LAUGHARNE PROSECUTION).
  LAND SETTLEMENT.
  LAND SETTLEMENT.
  COUNCILS OF AGRICULTURE.
  COUNCILS OF AGRICULTURE.
  WATER SUPPLY, SOUTHEND-ON-SEA.
  WATER SUPPLY, SOUTHEND-ON-SEA.
HOUSING.
  DIRECT LABOUR.
  DIRECT LABOUR.
  SOUTHGATE COUNCIL SCHEME.
  SOUTHGATE COUNCIL SCHEME.
  IRELAND (GRANTS).
  IRELAND (GRANTS).
  LASSWADE AND GALA SCHEMES (BRICK WALLS).
  LASSWADE AND GALA SCHEMES (BRICK WALLS).
  VICTORY EXHIBITION, CRYSTAL PALACE.
  VICTORY EXHIBITION, CRYSTAL PALACE.
GOVERNMENT OFFICES (STAFFS AND ACCOMMODATION).
  REGENT'S PARK BUILDINGS.
  REGENT'S PARK BUILDINGS.
  REGIONAL FOOD OFFICE, BRADFORD.
  REGIONAL FOOD OFFICE, BRADFORD.
  MINISTRY OF FOOD.
  MINISTRY OF FOOD.
  ARCHERY ROAD HOSTEL, ELTHAM.
  ARCHERY ROAD HOSTEL, ELTHAM.
  BUTTRILLS RECREATION GROUND, BARRY.
  BUTTRILLS RECREATION GROUND, BARRY.
INDIA.
  HUNTER COMMISSION REPORT (ACTING DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, GUJRANWALLA).
  HUNTER COMMISSION REPORT (ACTING DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, GUJRANWALLA).
  NATIVE TROOPS (FOREIGN SERVICE).
  NATIVE TROOPS (FOREIGN SERVICE).
  SEA TRANSPORT (SICK PERSONS).
  SEA TRANSPORT (SICK PERSONS).
  AMRITSAR DISTURBANCES (COMMUTED DEATH SENTENCES).
  AMRITSAR DISTURBANCES (COMMUTED DEATH SENTENCES).
  PESHAWAR OUTRAGE.
  PESHAWAR OUTRAGE.
IRELAND.
  SINN FEIN "COURT," BALLINASLOE.
  SINN FEIN "COURT," BALLINASLOE.
  CORK HARBOUR BOARD (REPUBLICAN FLAG).
  CORK HARBOUR BOARD (REPUBLICAN FLAG).
  SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL.
  SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL.
TRANSPORT.
  RAILWAY FOREMEN (SALARIES).
  RAILWAY FOREMEN (SALARIES).
  SCHOOL OUTINGS (REDUCED FARES).
  SCHOOL OUTINGS (REDUCED FARES).
  FISH TRAFFIC (FACILITIES).
  FISH TRAFFIC (FACILITIES).
  MUNITIONS MANUFACTURE, RAILWAY SHOPS (PAYMENTS).
  MUNITIONS MANUFACTURE, RAILWAY SHOPS (PAYMENTS).
  PASSENGER MOTOR CARS (GOVERNMENT POOL).
  PASSENGER MOTOR CARS (GOVERNMENT POOL).
POST OFFICE.
  PROTECTION OF MAILS, RAILWAY TERMINI.
  PROTECTION OF MAILS, RAILWAY TERMINI.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, RURAL AREAS.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, RURAL AREAS.
  INSULATORS, CABLES AND POLES.
  INSULATORS, CABLES AND POLES.
EDUCATION.
  EVENING SCHOOLS AND CLASSES (GRANTS).
  EVENING SCHOOLS AND CLASSES (GRANTS).
  CEYLON (CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM).
  CEYLON (CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM).
  MOTOR VEHICLES (TAXATION).
  MOTOR VEHICLES (TAXATION).
  PERSIA (SOVIET DETACHMENT).
  PERSIA (SOVIET DETACHMENT).
  CARDIFF CITY POLICE FORCE (PENSIONS).
  CARDIFF CITY POLICE FORCE (PENSIONS).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
THE LORD BISHOP OF PETERBOROUGH.
Frank Theodore, Lord Bishop of PETER-BOROUGH—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION (LANDS) BILL.
Read 2a.
DOVER HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

AIR NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Connnittee.—(The Martivess of Londonderry).
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power to give effect to Convention.
1. His Majesty may make such Orders in Council and do such things as appear to him necessary for carrying out the Convention and for giving effect thereto or to any of the provisions thereof, or to any amendment which may be made under article thirty-four thereof.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had on the Paper an Amendment to omit the words "and do such things as appear to him necessary." The noble Lord said: I suggest that these words are unnecessary. I believe the noble Lord has considered the point and I shall be glad to know his decision.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): I am willing to accept the Amendment, but I suggest that the words should read: "His Majesty may make such Orders in Council as appear to him necessary for carrying out the Convention." The noble Lord is suggesting that some of these words are redundant, and I should be happy to move the Amendment in the form that I have suggested.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 25 and 29, leave out the words ("and do such things").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Special powers in case of emergency.
(3) Any person who suffers direct injury or loss, owing to the operation of an order of the Secretary of State under this section, shall be entitled to receive compensation from the Secretary of State, the amount thereof to be fixed, in default of agreement, by an official arbitrator appointed under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, the principles of that Act being applied, with the necessary modifications, where possession is taken of any land or premises.
(4) An order under this section may be revoked or varied by a subsequent order made by the Secretary of State.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU moved, in subsection (3), at the beginning, to leave out the word "direct." The noble Lord said: This is rather an important Amendment. We want to define more clearly what kind of injuries will entitle a person to receive compensation. The words run "any person who suffers direct injury or loss." I suggest that the words should rather be "indirect injury," because there may be loss or damage which would be the indirect result of aircraft. There is, for example, the case of a brood mare being frightened by aeroplanes. Then there have already been cases in which low-flying aircraft over flocks of sheep have caused a panic among them and serious damage has resulted. There are also instances where low-flying aircraft have caused considerable damage to cattle. In the New Forest, of which I have had considerable experience, on several occasions ponies have been driven into bogs or
536
injured. I suggest to the Government the omission of the word "direct," and a reliance simply on the common law, which would then operate. The words "any person who suffers injury or loss" would give the clause a rather wide interpretation, and I suggest to the Government that they should consider that point.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 35, leave out ("direct").—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think it necessary to retain the word "direct," because otherwise the door would be opened to many claims that it would be very undesirable to admit. I recognise the points that the noble Lord has made in regard to flocks of sheep and brood mares, but I think injuries of that kind, if there was a valid claim, could very easily be proved. On the other hand, if this word "direct" is not in the Bill, an outside person would be able to claim damages because an aerodrome had been commandeered by the Government, so preventing him from selling goods to the proprietor of the aerodrome. That would be a claim which the retention of the word "direct" would obviate. As regards the person who has suffered direct loss, he is not excluded from obtaining compensation, nor is any person prevented from obtaining compensation provided that the loss for which he sues is not under ordinary legal principles too remote.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: After what the noble Marquess has said I am prepared to accept his judgment on this point, but I think he should again consider it, and perhaps he will do so before the Report stage in order that the cases of brood mares and flocks may be covered, and compensation be paid in case of damage to them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU moved, at the end of subsection (3), to insert "Nothing in this Act shall deprive any subject of a right of appeal to the Courts of the Realm." The noble Lord said: I put this Amendment down under the impression that this has some relation to D.O.R.A. Under D.O.R.A. some of us have had rather painful experience of the rights of the subject having been taken away or largely whittled down, and I think it is most important to preserve the right

537
of appeal to the ordinary Courts of the Realm. I am not in love with any form of legislation which deprives His Majesty's subjects of recourse to the Courts of Law. Therefore I suggest to the Government that the words I have put down would, if adopted, give confidence to the subjects of His Majesty. The Government need not fear anything from the Courts of Law if they have a good case. I invite the noble Marquess to consider this point.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 2, at end insert ("Nothing in this Act shall deprive any subject of a right of appeal to the Courts of the Realm ").—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: To insert this Amendment would cut at the whole root of the clause as it is drafted. The decision of the arbitrator is now final in all cases where land is compulsorily acquired under the law, and I am sure the noble Lord realises that if an appeal is admitted in these cases it may lead to endless litigation. I am certain that is not the desire which is in his mind. The clause as it is drawn does not prevent any one who can allege that the Secretary of State is acting in excess of the powers given to him by the clause going to the Courts on that plea, but I feel it is necessary for us to follow the custom which is observed in the case of the acquisition of land by compulsory purchase, and I most resist this Amendment. I do not think that we are going beyond what is habitually done in the case of decisions by an arbitrator when land is acquired compulsorily, and I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (3), to insert "Provided that no compensation shall be payable by reason of the operation of a general order under this section prohibiting flying in the British Islands or any part thereof." The noble Marquess said: I think it will be understood that this Amendment is proposed in order to limit the cases in which compensation is payable only when there has been an interference with the claimant individually by requisitions of his property, or the prohibition of flying at his particular aerodrome. The point that will be in everybody's mind is the prohibition of flying by Mr. McKenna,
538
who was then Home Secretary, on August 2, 1914, two days before the outbreak of war. That was a general prohibition of flying, only of course no compensation could be claimed or paid. This Amendment is to safeguard that point.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 2, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
Establishment of aerodromes by Air Council and local authorities.
8.—(1) The Air Council, and any local authority to which this section applies with the consent of the Air Council, and subject to such conditions as the Air Council may prescribe, shall have power to establish and maintain aerodromes (including power to provide and maintain roads and approaches, buildings and other accommodation and apparatus and equipment for such aerodromes) and to acquire land for that purpose, in the case of a local authority by agreement, and in the case of the Air Council either by agreement or in accordance with the provisions of this Act as to the acquisition of land by the Air Council.
(2) A local authority providing an aerodrome under this section shall have power to carry on in connection therewith any subsidiary business ordinarily carried on as incidental to the maintenance of an aerodrome.
(3) The local authorities to which this section applies are councils of counties and county boroughs, and urban district councils, and the expenses of those councils under this section shall he defrayed, in the case of a county council as expenses for general county purposes, and in the case of other council as expenses incurred in the administration of the Public Health Acts, 1875 to 1908.
(4) A local authority, if a county council may borrow for the purposes of this section under section sixty-nine of the Local Government Act, 1888, as if those purposes were mentioned in that section, and, if the council of a county borough or urban district, shall have the same power of borrowing under this section as they have under the Public Health Acts, 1875 to 1908, for the purpose of defraying any expenses incurred by them in the administration of those Acts.
(5) For the purpose of the purchase of land by agreement under this section by a local authority the Lands Clauses Acts shall be incorporated with this Act except the provisions of those Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), after "purpose." to insert "by purchase or hire." The noble Marquess said: This is quite a simple Amendment. It is proposed in order to enable local authorities to rent land for aerodromes instead of being obliged to purchase.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 11, after ("purpose") insert ("by purchase or hire").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "Land may be acquired by a local authority under this section either within or without the area of the authority." The noble Marquess said: This additional power is desirable from the fact that some cities or towns may not have within their boundaries a site which would be suitable for the establishment of a municipal aerodrome. Already difficulties have been experienced both at Leeds and at Bradford, and there are large towns also in Lancashire which are similarly situated. I do not think that any danger need be anticipated in the granting of this power, because the Air Council's consent is required under the section before the local authorities can establish an aerodrome. The necessity of obtaining this consent will operate as a check upon any unreasonable proposals as regards distance, even if such proposals were made.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 15, at end insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (2), to leave out from "business" to the end of the subsection, and insert "certified by the Air Council to be ancillary to the carrying on of an aerodrome." The noble Marquess said: This is an Amendment which follows out a suggestion made by the noble Lord (Lord Montagu of Beaulieu). It was his intention to add a schedule to the Bill in regard to subsidiary businesses which might be carried on. I think that if the words I have proposed are added this should meet the noble Lord's contention. It is highly undesirable that businesses should be carried on under the form of what we call "municipal trading." At the same time, it is necessary that the various undertakings should continue which, in the words of the Amendment, are "ancillary to the carrying on of an aerodrome."
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 18, leave out from ("business") to the end of subsection (2), and insert ("certified
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by the Air Council to be ancillary to the carrying on of an acrodrome").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for meeting me on this point, and I think that the words proposed will do very well. My object, like his, was simply to prevent local authorities from carrying on the general business of selling aircraft and motor cars, and generally engaging in business in which they would probably have little experience. I have every desire to assist local authorities in establishing aerodromes and generally in encouraging aviation, and I think it is most important that the authorities of big towns should be encouraged to give every facility towards that end.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (3), a number of Amendments of which the first was to insert, after "are," the words "the Common Council of the City of London, the." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment and the series which follows on the Order Paper are put down at the request of the Common Council of the City of London. The point of the Amendments is that the City of London should be placed in exactly the same position as the local authorities which are defined in subsection (3). The City Corporation is not at present included under the category either of county councils, county borough councils, or urban district councils, and it has specially asked to be included. The Common Council fully recognise, as we all do, that at this moment in the City of London those facilities for the establishment of an aerodrome do not exist. At the same time, they recognise that aviation is in its infancy. There may be very rapid developments in the future and they feel that it would be useful for them to know that they could acquire an aerodrome. Aeroplanes, of course, can already take off from the decks of ships. The Common Council desire, in view of possible developments, to enjoy the same advantages as the local authorities named in the subsection.
Amendments moved—
Page 5, line 20, after ("are") insert ("the Common Council of the City of London, the")
Page 5, line 23, after ("of") insert ("the Common Council of the City of London out of the general rate, in the case of")

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Page 5, line 27, leave out ("if a county council").
Page 5, line 28, after the first ("section") insert ("in the case of the Common Council of the City of London under the City of London Sewers Acts, 1848 to 1897, and in the case of a county council ").
Page 5, line 30, leave out ("if") and insert ("in the case of").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert "but money so borrowed shall not be reckoned as part Of the debt of such local authority for the purposes of any enactment limiting the powers of borrowing by the authority." The noble Marquess said: The amount of indebtedness that may be incurred by a local authority at any time is limited by the Local Government Act, 1888, and the Public Health Act, 1875. The effect of this Amendment, which has been suggested by the Ministry of Health, is to exempt from those limiting provisions the amount which may be borrowed by a local authority under the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 31, at end, insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Lord Montagu of Beaulieu has an Amendment on the Paper on the ground of the redundancy of the words in the clause, but I suggest that the noble Lord would perhaps be satisfied if we omitted the words "by agreement" in line 35.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I think that would meet the point. It seems to me that the words "by agreement" and the words "except the provisions of those Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement "would be rather redundant, and, in fact, confusing, and we run a danger of complicating an already rather confused clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 35, leave out ("by agreement").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Trespass, nuisance, and responsibility for damage.
9. No action shall lie in respect of trespass or in respect of nuisance by reason only of the flight of aircraft over any property or the ordinary incidents of such flight, so long as the provisions of this Act and any Order made thereunder and of the Convention are duly complied with; but where material damage or loss is caused by an aircraft in flight, taking off, or landing, or by any person in any such aircraft, or by any article falling from any such aircraft, to any person or property on land or water, damages shall be recoverable from the owner of the aircraft in respect of such damage or loss, without proof of negligence or intention or other cause of action, as though the same had been caused by his wilful act, neglect or default, except where the damage or loss was contributed to by the negligence of the person by whom the same was suffered.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU moved, after "aircraft," where that word first occurs, to insert "at a height of not less than 2,000 feet or such height in excess of 2,000 feet as the Secretary of State may determine, having regard to the noise made by aircraft, the amenities of the locality, and the enjoyment of houses or land by His Majesty's subjects." The noble Lord said: This is a very important clause, and I invite the Government to consider this Amendment rather seriously. At, the present moment the position stands thus. On the Civil Aerial Transport Committee, of which I have the honour to be a member, it was decided that it was difficult to fix the height at which an airman should fly. I recognise that, that having been more or less decided by the Committee after consideration, the Government, of course, may reply that they are only carrying out the recommendations of the Committee. Since that Committee sat there have been a good many evidences of damage done by low-flying aircraft.
Besides the cases of cattle or sheep, or the case of a valuable brood mare which was alluded to on a former clause by the noble Marquess and myself, there are also cases in which human life may be involved; for instance, cases such as that which occurred last year at Bournemouth when the beach was crowded with people, and a very injudicious and rash airman flew over the beach a few yards above the heads of the bathers. Had his controls gone wrong even in a very small degree he would have cut down dozens of women and children and others on the beach. He converted himself into an "air-hog," who can be a worse animal than even the "road-

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hog." Then there is the case of nuisance arising through low flying over houses. We can assume that some day there may be a more or less defined track between London and Edinburgh, or between London and Manchester, or other large provincial centres. The noise of the exhaust of aircraft is still so great that in an ordinary aeroplane the pilot and observer cannot hear one another except with great difficulty, and the noise below, if aircraft fly below a certain height, may constitute a serious nuisance to people on the ground.
There is one alteration of the Amendment which I should be perfectly prepared to make in order to meet a legitimate point which escaped me when I first put it down—namely, there ought to be provision for aircraft ascending from or descending to an aerodrome or private grounds. Nevertheless, I think there is a case for insisting that aircraft shall not fly at a height which constitutes either a danger or a nuisance to human beings or endangers the lives of human beings or animals. On this point I have had several rather eloquent letters, and one gentleman writes that he took a house some years ago near a certain aerodrome, and during the war he was, of course, willing to put up with the nuisance that arose. Later the flying became troublesome; aeroplanes circled over the roads at low altitudes and made this gentleman's house
practically uninhabitable, particularly on Saturdays and Sundays when he needed rest. He eventually communicated with the Air Ministry who did their best to abate the nuisance. I have had many letters on this subject, and I suggest that there ought to be some power inserted in this Bill or given to the Secretary of State—to which I am perfectly willing to agree—whereby low flying should be prohibited, and the Secretary of State should have power to prohibit flying which is dangerous or constitutes a nuisance. I think the Amendment is an important one, and if the noble Marquess cannot see his way to meet me to-day he might between now and the Report Stage give it serious consideration. There is a strong feeling in the country on this point and the Government should try to meet us.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 2, insert the said words.—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: It is impossible not to feel a certain amount
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of sympathy with the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, and I am grateful to him for the temperate way in which he proposed it. The substance of the Amendment really is to draw an imaginary line at a height of 2,000 feet, and to restrict the protection of Clause 9 to aircraft above that height. I venture to say that this is an impossible provision to lay down. It is not possible to prove at exactly what height an aircraft is flying; and at the same time, in the climate of this country, there are many days in the year on which it is imposible to fly at a height of 2,000 feet. In fact, it is necessary on a great many occasions to fly lower than that.
The noble Lord recognises, of course, that in our attempt to regulate these matters we are faced with immense difficulties. The science of aviation is in its infancy. We have suddenly discovered a new high-road in the world, if I may use the expression—the high-road of the air—and it is obvious that any person or animal underneath that high-road is in a certain amount of varying danger, important and unimportant. It is to be hoped that, as the science of aviation progresses, this danger will he reduced to an absolute minimum. The difficulty in which we are at the present moment is in regard to our attempt to steer a middle course between the rights and amenities of private citizens on the one hand and the necessities of civil aviation on the other. I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me when I say that it is unfair to draw any parallels from the amount and nature of Service flying in 1918. All those parallels are misleading for obvious reasons. It was a period of war, and care was not taken in the way in which, perhaps, it should have been taken and in which it will be taken by a commercial firm which is operating to satisfy the public, to eliminate risks and, above all things, not to arouse any undue prejudice which may hamper its efforts in that direction.
The noble Lord has given us one instance of an airman who flew low at the seaside. He knows that, under the existing Air Navigation Regulations of 1919, any person who carries out flying which, by reason of low altitude or proximity to persons or dwellings, is dangerous to public safety, is liable to be punished by a fine of £200 and six months imprisonment. This provision will be repeated in the Order in

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Council to be issued under this Bill. The Civil Aerial Transport Committee, of which the noble Lord was a member, considered this point carefully, and in their Report they have given it as their opinion that it is impracticable to attempt to prescribe any altitude of this description. While I need hardly say that I fully sympathise with the point the noble Earl is trying to make, I feel that the limiting words which he proposes to insert in the Bill are really impossible, and I would. ask him to be good enough to withdraw this Amendment. I can assure him that between now and the Report stage I shall certainly make further inquiries, and leave no stone unturned to reduce to a minimum the danger and the nuisance, which is important from the point of view of the general public and the success of aviation.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should like to support what my noble friend behind me has said, not that I desire to controvert in any way what has been put forward so courteously by the noble Marquess. I wish, however, to confirm the experience of the noble Lord as to the great nuisance and danger which some gentlemen who fly do involve to the public. When I was at a seaside town, a totally different. place from the one referred to, I saw a proceeding on several occasions which filled me with indignation. It was at Littichampton. The beach was absolutely full with large numbers of people and children digging. A flying gentleman came down and flew the whole length of the beach so low that, as I watched him from above, my eves were above the level at which he sat. Now that we have reached a time of peace there will be a strong feeling of indignation against flying of that kind, and it is very necessary regulations of some sort should he made. I am quite willing to take it from the noble Marquess that there is power already to stop what constitutes a danger; but something more than that is required. Anything which is obviously injurious to the health and convenience of the ordinary population ought not to be allowed to take place, and the noble Lord is quite right in calling attention to this point. His amendment may go a little too far, but I hope that between now and the Report stage the matter will be further considered in order to see whether the Bill cannot be strengthened so as to prevent such occurrences as we have both witnessed.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: May I say in answer to the noble Marquess that power already exists under the Air Navigation Regulations, 1919, under which a person guilty of an offence similar to those referred to is liable to a fine of £200 or 6 months' imprisonment. That is the existing law, and this provision will be repeated in the Order in Council to be issued under this Bill.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I quite recognise what the noble Lord has said about the necessity of flying lower than 2,000 feet when there is fog or under conditions in which the earth cannot be seen clearly, and if there is power already existing by which the Government, through the Air Ministry, can prosecute pilots who are so rash as to fly in the manner described I am satisfied, but I do invite the Government to consider this point more carefully before the Report stage in. order that. we may have a fuller explanation then. In the circumstances I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after "was" ["damage or loss was contributed to "], to insert "caused by or". The noble Marquess said: We have been asked to put this Amendment into the Bill in order to give protection to the owner of an aircraft in cases where the damage or loss in question has been caused and not merely contributed to by the negligence of the person by whom the damage or loss is suffered.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 13, after ("was") insert ("caused by or").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the Clause, to insert "Provided that, where any damages recoverable from the owner of an aircraft under this section arose from damage or loss caused by the wrongful or negligent action or omission of any person carried in the aircraft, nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect any right of the owner to recover from that person the amount of such damages. For the purpose of this section, the expression 'owner' in relation to aircraft includes any person to whom the aircraft is demised." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is obvious; other

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wise, the owner of an aircraft would be responsible for any delinquencies which might be committed by passengers who were being carried in the aircraft. There might be instances where something was thrown out of an aeroplane and damage incurred by some one on the ground. The owner of the aeroplane should be entitled to recover from that person the amount of such damage. The expression "owner" includes any person to whom the aircraft is demised. If the aircraft is hired by another person that person incurs all the liabilities of the owner.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 14, at end insert the said words.— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I quite agree with what the noble Marquess has said. At the same time, if we look at it from the point of view of the public, it is very difficult to see how the public can be protected. Take an instance. A large machine goes up from one of the suburban aerodromes round London. The passengers take their lunch with them. Suppose they throw out half a dozen soda water bottles and one of the bottles catches one of your Lordships on the head as he is walking in the street—perhaps killing him or seriously injuring him—what remedy has he, or his executors? It is rather a serious question. In the case of a railway company it has been established that the company has no liability for any hurt that may happen to any one but its own servants. If you throw a soda water bottle out of a first-class railway carriage and you hit a platelayer, the platelayer, I believe, can claim; but if it kills an ordinary citizen I do not know what redress there is. It seems to me rather hard that there should be no means of recovering. I do not know what the law may be on this subject, but this is a point which will have to be considered very carefully, because it may be one of great importance in the future.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think the noble Lord will see that the object of this Amendment is to enable the owner to recover from the passenger who may have committed the crime, which means that the owner is at this moment responsible for any damage which he may do.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 and 11 agreed to.
Clause 12:
Infringement of patents.
(3) For the purposes of this subsection the expression "owner" shall include the actual owner of an aircraft, and any person claiming through or under him, and the expression "passage" shall include all reasonable landings and stoppages in the course or the purpose of a passage.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment which I move in this clause is merely to correct a misprint.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 4, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("section").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 13, 14 and 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Provisions as to Orders in Council.
16.—(1) An Order in Council under this Act may be made applicable to any aircraft in or over the British Islands or the territorial waters adjacent thereto, and to British aircraft wherever they may be.
(2) An Order in Council under this Act may be revoked or varied by a subsequent Order in Council.
(3) Any Order in Council made under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and, if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the Order or any provision thereof may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Order or provision, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.
(4) Section one of the Rules Publication Act, 1893, shall not apply to any Order made under this Act.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I move an Amendment to correct a verbal error in the drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 7, leave out ("regulation") and insert ("order").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU moved to omit subsection (4). The noble Lord said: I should be very much obliged if the noble Lord would tell the House what

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subsection (4) means. I think it is very desirable that there should be full publicity given to any rule made, and I think that everybody would be the better for knowing exactly what is going to be done or to be ordered. Perhaps the noble Marquess will tell us what is meant.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, lines 12 and 13, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I do not think it is a matter of very great importance. The original idea was that where urgency was present orders could be more readily promulgated, but it is of no great importance.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Savings.
17.—(1) This Act shall not (except where express provision is made to the contrary by this Act, or any Order or regulations thereunder) apply to aircraft belonging to or employed in the service of His Majesty.
(2) Nothing in this Act, or in any Orders or regulations thereunder, shall prejudice or affect the rights, powers, or privilege of any general lighthouse authority.
LORD GLENARTHUR LORD GLENARTHUR moved, in subsection (2), after "general," to insert "or local." The noble Lord said: The Amendment that stands in my name is submitted on behalf of the Dock and Harbour Authorities Committee, representing the large harbours in the country, including those of Liverpool, Newcastle, the Clyde, and Bristol. The object of it is to preserve the rights of those authorities. Clause 17 subsection (2) preserves the rights of any general lighthouse authority, but it is thought that it does not include the right of any particular harbour board that is also a lighthouse authority for the port. The two principal harbour authorities who are also lighthouse authorities are the Mersey Dock & Harbour Board (who have, under an Act of 1858, power to maintain and control the lighthouses in the port of Liverpool) and the Clyde Lighthouse Trust, whose special duties are to erect and maintain lighthouses on the Clyde. It is very important that the rights of these authorities should be protected, and I am glad to know that the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill is willing to accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 20, after ("general") insert ("or local").—(Lord Glenarthur.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
Application to Scotland and Ireland.
18.—(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland subject to the following modifications:—
(b) a county council may borrow for the purposes of the said section on the security of the general purposes rate in the manner and subject to the conditions prescribed by the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1899, and a town council may borrow for the purposes of the said section on the security of the public health general assessment in like manner and subject to the like conditions as they may borrow for the purpose of the provision of hospitals.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The only Amendment to be moved in this clause is proposed for the purpose of correcting a misprint.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 32, leave out ("1899") and insert ("1889").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Schedule:

The Dominion of Canada.

The Dominion of New Zealand.

The Commonwealth of Australia (including Norfolk Island and Papua).

The Union of South Africa.

Newfoundland.

India.

THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: I beg to move Amendments to give effect to the representations made by the Colonial Office that the correct order of precedence in regard to the self-governing Dominions should be followed in the Bill.
Amendments moved—
Page 10, leave out line 32.
Page 10, line 34, at end insert ("the Dominion of New Zealand").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had on the Paper an Amendment to insert the following new schedule:

AIR NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]

  SCHEDULED SUBSIDIARY BUSINESSES.
  1. Motor and garage proprietors.

  2. Owners or licensees of hotels, refreshment rooms.

  The noble Lord said: The point raised by this Amendment has already been met and, therefore, I do not move.

PROPERTY OF EX-ENEMY SUBJECTS.
LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether it has been brought to their notice that the proposal to confiscate the private property of the subjects of ex-Enemy Countries affects adversely the basis of International Security and the prospects of the British Carrying Trade.
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this question, which I understand the noble Lord on the Woolsack is going to answer, raises the point of the confiscation of the private property of subjects of ex-enemy countries. It was raised and discussed when the Austrian and Bulgarian Treaties were before your Lordships' House. On that occasion, however, the noble Viscount who answered for the Government, Lord Milner, did not in any way deal with this Question nor did he answer the question put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Buckmaster, as to whether the treatment of British private property in Austria was on a more humane and correct basis than the treatment that we propose as regards Austrian subjects in this country.
The principle involved may be stated quite shortly, and in order to make my points as clear as I can I will quote what was said by such authorities as two ex-Lord Chancellors when this matter was before the House on the former occasion. The principle is that private property on land is not, according to modern practice, as regards international or municipal law, subject to confiscation, either during the war period or after the war period has finished. In fact the principle which has always hitherto been adopted in this country—there may be some interferences —has been this, that during the war time the private rights of enemy subjects are suspended because, of course, they have no
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right of access to our Courts while the war is actually in progress. But, though they are suspended, they are put under proper guardianship in order that the interests of the owners may be properly protected, and when the war comes to an end any interference with their rights which has been caused during the war is removed, and they have the same rights as regards their private property as any other British subjects. That is a matter of great importance because it draws a distinction between the private property of ex-enemy nationals and what I may call national property belonging to an ex-enemy country. And I thought the principle had long been established in the cause of humanity and justice that there should be no confiscation of private property under those conditions.
After, or perhaps during, the Napoleonic Wars, the principle of protecting private enemy property merely by the institution of guardianship during the continuance of the war, was laid down several times, particularly in the well-known judgment of Lord Chancellor Erskine. I think, so far as the general principle is concerned, there can hardly be any question at all. What was said by my noble and learned friend, Lord Haldane, who was one of the ex-Lord Chancellors who spoke oil the last occasion—I am glad to see him here to-day —and what was said by my noble friend Lord Buckmaster? Their statement of general principle appeared to be so clear that really nothing need be added to it.
On that occasion Lord Haldane said this of tins principle. If the noble Lord on the Woolsack has the OFFICIAL REPORT he will find it at column 978—
"And now, by degrees, we appear to have glided into a state of things under which we have gone back, and in a very formidable way, upon what was a rooted principle of international law, and that was that war was a thing between States."
Of course, if you are going to confiscate private property, it is no longer war between States, but it becomes war between all nationals. The noble Viscount continued—
"Although in the natural operations of war the property of individual subjects of these States might be interfered with, still the property of the individual, as he possessed it in the country with which his Government was at war, was preserved intact and handed back to him when the war was over."
You will see at once that that is an extremely important principle, when

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dealing with international relationships, and is of the utmost importance if we desire to get rid of the friction and trouble which war must always bring about, in order to enter again upon friendly international co-operation.
Then the noble Lord, Viscount Haldane also said this—and I shall have to call attention quite shortly to the terms of the Treaties presently—
"under the provisions of these Treaties their private property, instead of being respected as international law up to this Treaty had made such property respected, is now vested in the custodian, trustee or some other authority, and is liquidated."
I propose, quite shortly, after stating the principle, to call attention to the terms of the Treaty and the Order made under the Treaty, in order to show that that is its operation. Then the noble Viscount went on to say—
"It seems to me that this is a very grave departure from international law as it has been worked out. It amounts to what is virtually confiscation at the end of the war of the private property of the subjects of countries with which we have been at war, and with which we have made peace. According to the doctrines of international law that have prevailed in this country, and I think, all over the world, up to a year ago, it was imagined that the property of these private persons would come back to them."
I need not add a word to that very clear statement of principle by a noble Lord who has occupied the position of Lord Chancellor, and who speaks with that authority, but, so far as my opinion is of any value, I beg to state that the principles there stated are absolutely correct both with regard to international law and as regards the principles of Our municipal law.
Then I should like to read one word of what was said by Lord Buckmaster, who has also occupied the Woolsack in this House. He said—
"Finally, I wish to say a word on the confiscation of enemy property. It is a most amazing thing, when for centuries it has been declared that private property on land is safe during war and cannot ever be seized, that we should have appropriated within our territory every item of enemy property and have applied it in the first instance—there may be some justification for this—as a means of redeeming debts due to our own subjects in the enemy countries, and then have directed that the balance of private property is to be applied in payment of the German debt——"
I have the Austrian Treaty before me but, as the noble and learned Lord Chancellor
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knows, there are similar provisions in all these Treaties—
"It is the most amazing thing I ever heard that you should compel private individuals to pay the debt for which the nation is responsible. I hope that steps will be taken to alter this."
I must say that it is an amazing thing, particularly at a time when I understand we are supporting the idea of the security of private property against somewhat adverse views held, for instance, in Russia at the present time, that we should have assented to the terms of these Peace Treaties which take away, after the war has ended, the security which for centuries has been given to the private property on land of ex-enemy nationals.
Of course, if you want to stop all international intercourse you could not go in a more direct way to do it, but I am sure that that would not be the desire of His Majesty's Government or of this House; and if there is one country which, historically, has benefitted by international co-operation and intercourse, it is our own country, It would be a common-place, and unnecessary, for me to deal with the fact that credit and security go hand in hand. Security is the only basis on which you can get credit, and never was it more necessary that you should have international credit than at the present time. I have been told by private banks and others that this principle of the confiscation of private property has been found to be a most deleterious matter, which they have been unable to get over. At any rate the first part of my Question is directed to that point, because you will see that the, Question asks how far the confiscation of private property of the subjects of ex-enemy countries affects adversely the basis of international security. I will go presently to the other point of the carrying trade.
Now, my Lords, what are the provisions in the Treaty? The Treaty in itself could not deal with a matter of this kind, but I have told the noble and learned Lord that I should raise this question, and of course in this case the Treaty has been confirmed by Act of Parliament, and an Order has been issued putting into force in this country the terms as regards the confiscation of the private property of ex-enemies which are included in the terms of the Peace Treaty. The terms of the Peace Treaty of which I wish to speak in this matter are two-fold, and it is important that attention

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should be called to both classes. The first article is Article 248 in the Austrian Treaty, which does not deal with the rights or properties of ex-enemy nationals, but with debts owing to them; and the general principle is to establish what are called Clearing Offices on the clearing house principle.
As a matter of machinery I should find no fault with that, as a convenient way of dealing with property of this kind. Then it goes on to say—
"Each of the High Contracting Parties shall prohibit, as from the coming into force of the present Treaty, both the payment and the acceptance of payment of such debts, and also all communications between the interested parties with regard to the settlement of the said debts otherwise than through the Clearing Offices."
What does that mean? It puts a practical prohibition upon any man recovering a sum of money to which, under international and municipal law, he is properly entitled. He is not to recover it, although it is due to him. I have had numerous letters from poor people showing the way in which this matter has operated. I had one letter from 700 of these poor people who had collected together. After the war they were in possession, when they went back to Germany, of a very small fund indeed, perhaps only £100.
Another case I have in mind is where the total sum was about £400. What was their position? All the earnings or savings of their lives were confiscated practically, as I shall show, under this principle. They could not obtain the money. We know well that under the conditions of the countries to which they went back it was extremely difficult to live at all, and it is a mean thing, as it seems to me, that we, as a country, should attempt to confiscate the small earnings of these poor people. I dare say it has been the experience of some of your Lordships to have, as I have had, numerous representations from neutral countries saying that they wonder how a country like England should take up a mean attitude of this kind towards poor people, depriving them of their small savings which they obtained in a perfectly legitimate manner, and to which they were entitled under the ordinary principles of municipal or international law. I did not put down this particular matter in my Question on the Paper, but I gave notice to the Lord Chancellor (as one would do in a case of this kind) that it was one of the points I intended to raise.
Then there is a provision about what is called striking the balance between the Receiving Offices, but with this proviso, to which my noble friend, Lord Buckmaster, called attention on a former occasion, speaking in very strong terms regarding the Austrian position—
"Any credit or balance which may be due by one or more of the Allied and Associated Powers shall be retained until complete payment shall have been effected of the sums due to the Allied or Associated Powers or their nationals on account of the war."
That is to say, supposing on the balance of account there was a sum due to these poor people (although this puts them anyhow under a great disability), they are not to have the advantage of that sum until there has been a complete payment of the sums due, not to other private people in Germany or Austria but to the Allied or Associated Powers from the Enemy Powers themselves. Surely that is a monstrous provision to put in. It means that during the lifetime of these poor people they will never get their money back at all.
There is one point in this connection to which I would ask the Lord Chancellor's attention. If I read aright the Order under which these provisions of the Treaty are put in force as part of our municipal law, there appears to be some sort of dispensing power in the Public Trustee, to whom these matters are entrusted, and it has been very strongly urged to me—and I hope attention will be given to this point—that if there is something of a dispensing power it ought to be exercised in favour of these poor people who are practically reduced to starvation conditions because their savings are taken from them. I have an instance of a governess who had about £70 which she had saved during the course of her life here. That is confiscated from her, and she can never get it back.
I think that under the terms of the Order there is a power to make Rules, and the Lord Chancellor would be the authority to make the Rules providing for cases of this sort, but no such Rules, so far as I know, have been made. I am told there have been no dispensations granted, and therefore I want to urge, among other matters, that these poor people, who are deprived of the earnings made during their lives, little as they are, should have the debts paid over to them in order that they shall not be left in the state in which they are at the present moment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will find it convenient if I ask him now to direct my attention specifically to the part of the Order upon which he has founded the view that there is a dispensing power.
LORD PARMOOR: I regret that I have not the Order before me. It is a long one, and I will direct the Lord Chancellor's attention to it privately if I may. It appears to me that the Public Trustee has power to consider what I may call hardships in particular cases, and it seems to be laid down that there are to be some Rules to guide him in exercising a discretion of that kind. I cannot find that any Rules have been issued, and I am told by the poor people who come to see use that the solicitors they consult tell them they cannot get a remedy because there are no Rules laid down. Therefore, no stable advice can be given to them by their solicitor. I do not want to put this antagonistically to the Lord Chancellor, because I feel certain that he would desire, in a matter of this kind, to do what is right and equitable so far as it is possible. This is not a matter of what is called the revision of the Treaty. It is a matter merely of dealing with an Order. It is part of our own municipal law and it is not under the Treaty itself that this is done. It is because the Treaty terms have been put into the form of the Order that these Regulations are being enforced at the present moment.
I will give one other illustration which is rather striking. There was a German workman over here during the whole time of the war. He was a specially skilled craftsman who made a number of small mechanical inventions of great value to his master. Ultimately he worked for Vickers & Sons, who were instituting during the war new works in connection with sewing machines, and they spoke in the highest possible respect of his talents and powers. He had to be repatriated, not from any fault of his but under the general Repatriation Order. He had a debt owing to him here of £400, and property of the value of about £75 in addition. It is quite impossible that he can ever get that. The only thing that is left to him is that he can get the benefit of his life insurance under the terms of the Order in the Treaty, but he says that is no good to him because, having been deprived of all means of subsistence, he cannot keep up his life insurance premiums, so that the policy has to lapse
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and become of no value. I give that illustration out of numerous cases which have been brought to my notice.
Consider also what the conditions are as regards property rights and interests. I have already dealt with the question of debts. The Lord Chancellor will find this dealt with under Article 249. I have now the Austrian Treaty, but it is the same, I think, in all of them. It reads that—
"Subject to any contrary stipulations which may be provided for in the present Treaty, the Allied and Associated Powers reserve the right to retain and liquidate all property, rights, and interests which belong at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty to nationals of the former Austrian Empire."
That is a complete confiscation for the purposes of liquidation of all the private property of Austrians, and the same applies to Germans and other ex-enemy nationals in this country. This principle of compensation is totally inapplicable and is really given in the wrong form. Austria undertakes to compensate her nationals in respect of the sale of property or of their interests in Allied or Associated States, but we know that Austria cannot do that, and we know that the machinery to put into operation a matter of that kind would take years, and probably would go quite outside the lives of any of these poor people who are reduced to the condition I have indicated.
I do not want to delay your Lordships unduly, but those are the provisions which have been introduced into this Treaty as regards debts and property, and I say they are entirely contrary to any principle which we have known hitherto. I do not say, as regards precedents, that you may not find some precedent which is more honoured in the breach than in the observance, but they are absolutely contrary to the general principles as laid down, in the terms which I have quoted, both by Lord Haldane and by Lord Buckmaster.
There is one other point I raise in my Question. and it refers to the prospects of the British carrying trade. This raises a very important point, and one with which the Lord Chancellor may be in a special way familiar. I am not prepared to quote the name in public, but I will give it to the noble and learned Lord if he desires, but what I may describe as one of the very first firms of shipowners in this country wrote to me, not on my solicitation, and brought before me these facts. They sent

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me a correspondence between themselves and some old clients of theirs at Hamburg. The English shipowners desired, after the termination of the war, to reconstruct the business, which they were carrying on before, of taking goods from Hamburg to the East and to South America. The Hamburg merchants wrote a very civil letter—they form what is called a syndicate, or conference, of Hamburg merchants—and said they did not doubt the bona fides of the shipowners, but, so long as the principle of the confiscation of ex-enemy private property remains, they could not and would not send any goods by the English shipowners' vessels. I was asked to bring this correspondence forward, because I think the shipowners knew I had taken an interest in matters of this sort.
What is the result? At the present time there is great difficulty in getting sufficient freight for English ships. All this traffic, which used to go in English ships, as it recommences is now being carried in Japanese ships. What is the good of pinpricking legislation of this kind, which brings about results of that character? Why should we, a great commercial and industrial race, who have adopted an equitable attitude towards international matters, on this occasion introduce a principle of this kind, not only unjust and inequitable, but antagonistic to our own interests. I think every one will agree that if there is one interest which we ought to develop more than another, and of which we feel the special advantages in this country, it is the great carrying trade. I can assure the Lord Chancellor that I do not speak in any antagonistic sense, but. I feel most strongly that this principle of confiscation ought not to have been introduced. I feel it is a mean thing for a country like ours to throw disadvantages of this kind upon poor people, and that, as regards the wider aspect of international credit and the carrying trade of this country, instead of promoting restoration, we are creating difficulties which need not exist.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I rise because there is a practical point to which I should like to draw the attention of the Government. I am not so sure as my noble and learned friend was—although I do not know that he was quite sure, either—that there is the dispensing power in the Custodian Trustee to which he referred.
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After all, the Act that has been passed is an Act which carries out the provisions of the Treaty, and I do not remember in the provisions of the Treaty any discretion given for exercising considerations which apply only to the case of individuals. There was a sweeping set of provisions introduced in practically identical terms into all the Treaties which have been made, according to which the property of private individuals is taken in liquidation of very sweeping claims which may be made by the Allied Governments against the Central Powers and their Allies. That is a new principle, a very great departure from what we have been familiar with as the tradition of international law in this country, which always respected the property of individuals.
I am, of course, aware of the difficulty which gave rise to the departure from that principle. The war which is now ended was a war of so sweeping a character, involving so much the resources, not only of the nations concerned in it, but of the individual citizens of those nations, that it was less easy than it used to be, in the days when war was exercised on a much more limited scale, to distinguish between national resources and private resources. And I dare say it seemed to those who projected the bases of the Peace Treaties a very convenient course to set up a sort of clearing house, and say, "We will take all the assets on both sides; we will discharge the liabilities, and, when that is done, we will return to those concerned what balances they may be individually entitled to." But in practice it works out., as my noble and learned friend has said, as virtual confiscation.
Now, it is not enough, I think, to remedy that case, even to amend the provisions of the law and the Treaty, by introducing a certain amount of discretion in the Custodian. My own feeling is very strong that we have to look ahead in this matter, and to look to a time when international trade will be replaced, so far as it can be replaced, on something like the footing on which it existed before the war. As my noble and learned friend has pointed out, that is very difficult, with the provisions of this Treaty standing as they are, and it may be possible at the forthcoming Conference, or in some other fashion, to reconsider what I am sure was introduced into the Peace Treaty more as a matter of machinery than for the purpose of asserting any harsh principle.

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It may be desirable to reconsider that, at any rate to the extent of seeing whether, in the case of individual private property, some mitigating principle can be introduced that will avert hardships, which, I fear, if left intact, will present very great difficulties as time goes on in the resumption of ordinary trade relations.
But that is not the only point. The position of private individuals who have small properties is a very hard one. Whether the Custodian has any discretion or not, there are certainly no clear principles laid down on which he can exercise it and, as a consequence, he does not exercise it. There have been brought to my notice some extraordinarily hard cases. One is that of a German in this country who had been here a long time before the war and who had been repatriated. His books, his clothes, and his furniture are all over here. They are worth practically nothing except to him, to whom they would be worth a great deal if he had them in Germany. The Custodian would like very much to be able to release them to him, but he does not see his way; there is no direction on which he can act. Then there was another case which was brought to my notice of a man who for 30 years carried on a business in this country in the course of which he supplied certain valuable agricultural articles. He had branches in various parts of the country; he was much respected. He omitted to get himself naturalised, but for all practical purposes he was a British citizen. Not only is the goodwill of his business gone, but his house has gone, his office has gone, all his property has gone, and he is unable to resume a trade which he was exercising in a very valuable fashion for the benefit of people here and which involved supplies of such articles as nitrates from Germany, with which country he was in intimate trade relations from this country.
It is that class of case which, I feel, has not only created very justifiable soreness but has disturbed the equanimity of things by applying a principle which never ought to have been applied in a rigid fashion. This country certainly gets very little out of making use of the principle. What we shall draw in the shape of resources for the liquidation of our claims against Germany, or of any one else's claims, by using up the assets of these unfortunate people, will be very small indeed. Not only is it contrary to principle to exercise in a rigid
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fashion the powers we possess, but it is neither profitable to ourselves nor likely to be anything but very unprofitable when it becomes a matter of restoring easier relations at a later stage.
What I wish to suggest to the Government is that it might be worth while to consider both the questions to which I have referred. There is the larger question as to whether it is not possible to introduce some mitigation into the machinery of the debit and credit provisions of the Treaties which will enable the liquidation to be carried out at any rate in a less sweeping fashion than it is at the present time; although, as I believe, it will prove to be without serious detriment to what any of us is likely to receive. But even apart from that, and if that could not be done, we should see whether, by an amendment of the law, or by an instruction—which will have to be made, of course, consistently with the Treaty or with the assent of the other Treaty Powers—it would not be practicable to give to the Custodian a clear discretion, so that in the case of small properties, below, say, a limited value, it would be possible to restore to their owners what they certainly were entitled to according to international law as it obtained before these Peace Treaties. I, for my part, think it would be very much in the interests of everyone concerned, ourselves as well as our late enemies, if we had adhered to that law upon the present occasion. My suggestion to the Lord Chancellor therefore is that the Government should consider whether the matter is a practicable one. This may require communication with the other Powers concerned.
They should also consider the question whether such a modification as I have suggested cannot be made in the more sweeping provisions of the Treaty. I believe those provisions were not introduced with any harsh desire to set aside international law as it had been up to this date, but merely under the mistaken view of carrying out a system of debit and credit account which is introduced as, on the face of it, likely to be a convenient thing. They should further consider whether they have not brought about a state of things which, in the end, will operate very much to the detriment not only of ourselves but of every other Power. I am not asking that this should be done upon the footing of consideration for our late enemies, although that is not a matter which I leave alto-

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gether out of account. I am asking that it should be done in view of the restoration of that growing better feeling which is the indispensable basis of the restoration of trade relations, and which I think it is to the advantage of every one we should have. If the Central Powers are to be left in the state of semi-starvation, with regard to industry as well as nutriment, in which they are at the present time, then I cannot foresee any other prospect than a Central Europe which is virtually bankrupt for a long time to come and which will involve with it in its bankruptcy the rest of Europe.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the two noble and learned Lords have dealt with this difficult subject in an extremely moderate manner. No one has ever under-rated the complexity of the matter or the fact that there were alternative methods by which it might have been dealt with at the time of the Peace Conference. Those were discussed very carefully before the course which was ultimately adopted prevailed. But I cannot assent, and I do not assent, to the principal foundation of the arguments of the two speeches to which the House has just listened. In his Question the noble and learned Lord refers to the confiscation of the property of enemy nationals. I do not agree that in any proper sense of the word there has been any such confiscation. I will deal in some little detail, though I hope not excessively, with the main points of the noble and learned Lord. In my judgment to talk of confiscation in circumstances where the real arrangement made is that the German nation is to compensate its own nationals for such property as they lose in this country, is not a right use of language.
The noble and learned Lord deals with the matter in a very cavalier fashion. He says that Germany cannot compensate for this property. I am not in the least satisfied that the German nation, which has undertaken to make this compensation, is not in a position to do so; and the case put forward by both noble and learned Lords of hardships to poor people, where the assets and estates are very inconsiderable in amount, is one which could be dealt with by the German Government, if it wished to deal with it, with the utmost possible expedition and despatch. It could be dealt with as quickly and as easily by competent Courts in the way in
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which workmen's compensation claims are dealt with in this country. The case of small persons is one which a Judge, or other person accustomed to deal with such matters, could hear and make awards upon at the rate of eight or nine in the course of a week. I must say plainly to the noble and learned Lord that when he attempts to work upon our feelings by talking of the unfortunate position of many of these people, those remarks ought to be addressed to the German Government, to the authorities of the nation who have involved by their deliberate policy almost the whole of the world in financial anxieties which seem likely to last as long as our lifetimes, and who have introduced financial conditions into the life of every one—even of those who are now listening to me—which are likely to endure as long as we live.
And when the noble and learned Lord said, or quotes the noble Viscount as having said, that war is, and has always been recognised as, a conflict not between individuals but between nations, the noble Lord would have been quite accurate had he been addressing your Lordships in the year 1913, or at the beginning of the year 1914. It was the deliberate choice, consistently inflexibly and cruelly pursued by our late enemies, to alter that state of things. They made this war; and it was a war which in many of its most malignant activities was waged against individuals. It was a war which, as it developed and developed more before our eves, very frequently destroyed the lives and property of civilians who had nothing whatever to do with the combatant forces of the Crown, and that principle, which I agree was organic and fundamental in the science of international law until August, 1914, was destroyed by the experience and the history of the last war, and humanity learned to face the conclusion that there was no man, woman, or child in this country who was not liable to be affected or destroyed by our enemies if the slightest consideration of policy suggested the adoption of that course.
In another way, and one more directly relevant to the contentions raised by the noble and learned Lord, it was a war which affected individuals. I have in mind its financial effect. I have in my mind the control which we ourselves found it necessary to establish over the property of our own countrymen. It will be within the recollection of the House that the Govern-

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ment here compulsorily took control of foreign securities possessed by the citizens of this country. My recollection is that the German Empire found itself compelled to adopt a similar course. The position therefore was this: that while the war was in progress, and in order to deal with its financial problems, we, and our enemies, found it necessary to establish control temporarily over the property of our people, and when the Peace Conference commenced it was necessary to determine what course should be adopted in relation to the property in this country of German nationals, and the nationals of our other enemies.
What is the course that has been adopted? The noble and learned Lords have described it. It is the establishment of a clearing house of the kind referred to and the prohibition of the nationals of both sides to make private liquidation of their property. The liquidation will be made by public authority, and as a necessary step in this process it is provided that the German nation and the other enemy nations shall make compensation to its nationals for such property as they lose in this country. The German Government, in offering their observations upon the draft Treaty of Peace presented to them, acknowledged most plainly—and it was necessary they should—this primary obligation. They further admitted the necessity of applying private property abroad of German nationals towards meeting it.
I may refer in this connection to Part X of the Reply of the Allied and Associated Powers to the observations of the German Delegation on the conditions of Peace, in which the following statement by the German Peace Delegates is quoted textually—
"The German Peace Delegation is conscious of the fact that under the pressure of the burden arising from the Peace Treaty on the whole future of German economic life, German property in foreign countries cannot be maintained to its previous extent. On the contrary, Germany, in order to meet her pecuniary obligations, will have to sacrifice this property abroad in wide measure. She is prepared to do so."
The clauses which give effect to the agreement arrived at in this matter are contained in the Peace Treaty. An Act recently passed through both Houses of Parliament here gives power to snake such Orders as are necessary to give effect to the provisions
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of the Treaty to which the noble and learned Lord has called attention.
Therefore, it is the law of the land that we are asked to sacrifice or modify. The case may be a good one or a bad one, but it cannot be founded, as I think the noble and learned Lord attempted to found it, upon any breach of the principles of international law. What, after all, is international law? International law is only the general body of rules which civilised communities, in their mutual intercourse, have agreed to treat as binding, and there have been many occasions on which meetings have taken place among the representatives of the civilised Powers with the express object of modifying or altering the doctrines of international law. Various successive Conferences at the Hague supply a familiar illustration. On an occasion of immense formality and ceremony in which the nations of the world were represented to an extraordinary degree, and in which all the victorious and all the defeated Powers agreed in a particular matter as between themselves to a particular course, it may or may not have been an undue and oppressive exercise of the superiority which we had asserted in the war that was made by the Powers, but it is entirely beside the point to speak as if any case can be made of the violation of international law. We have, by a familiar and historical process to which international law owes its birth, come to an Agreement with a number of other Powers to which statutory effect has been given by each of the signatory parties in the manner appropriate to its own constitution, and it is idle to talk of any breach of the doctrine of international law or remind your Lordships of the practice in previous wars.
The case, and the only case, which can be made here in my judgment is the case that we have in this particular made an oppressive use of the victory we have gained. I know of no other case that can be legitimately pressed upon the attention of the House. That is no doubt a matter which is arguable by both noble Lords who have spoken. But, while we ought not to be slow to give the rein to compassion in cases of individuals who have suffered, we ought, I think, to remember also that there are large numbers of individuals in this country who have suffered irreparably in their fortunes and to whom this war has brought bankruptcy and ruin. We ought not completely to exclude from our mind

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that these subjects of whom I am speaking, our own countrymen, have nothing with which to reproach those who were in authority and directing the policy of this country for responsibility in the war.
Does the noble and learned Lord think that we should part with an asset which, though it is inconsiderable, is still an asset? Does he suggest that, a balance having been taken in our favour, it would be practicable to obtain on that hypothesis such liquidation as would become due in favour of this country? It is surely a matter winch must be looked upon in the light of common sense and of the actual circumstances under which this day of reckoning took place.
The issue is between those who say that we should restore all the property of enemy nationals in this country and those who, on the contrary, take the view that it was for the German Government to compensate its own nationals and that these assets should be made available for the satisfaction of the enormous sums of money which Germany owes to this country and which are almost totally unsecured. When he uses the words "the inhumanity of the decision that has been taken and of the course that has been adopted," he ought, I think, to remember that the representatives of the Allies, aided by the most prudent and sagacious expert advisers, considered these matters very deeply, and no one, I think, would say that those who considered them were specially inhumane persons or that they did not most carefully examine every course which presented itself to them. I had a little to do with it myself, though very little, because all these discussions took place, in circumstances with which this House is familiar, in Paris, amongst a very few exalted individuals, and to suppose that the matter was not most deeply considered would, of course, be absurd. I think that my noble and learned friend may be quite sure that every alternative course was explored with the very greatest care before a decision was taken.
Viscount Haldane made two suggestions. He suggested in the first place that the whole incidence of the clearing-house scheme might be re-examined without attempting to sweep it away altogether. I take the view that to undertake such an inquiry would probably be destructive of the Articles of the Peace themselves which are under consideration, and I do not
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imagine that the nations concerned would be prepared to undertake that. He made a second suggestion that, in cases of peculiar individual hardship, it might be possible that the Custodians should be given some discretion, and Lord Parmoor was of opinion that under the Orders already made they enjoyed such discretion. I will ask him if he can refer me to that part of the Order, because I confess I was not aware of such a provision and I do not now recall it. If he will call Inv attention to it privately I shall be glad to have an opportunity of considering it, because if there is already in existence an Order which gives the Custodian discretion, that would be an Order made under statutory authority, indicating the intention of the Legislature that it should exercise its discretion in such cases. I think one must go on the hypothesis that there does not at present exist that discretion.
The noble Viscount has suggested that it might be possible, without impairing the fabric of the Treaty, or possibly re-opening negotiations with our Allies in a matter which principally concerns ourselves, to give the Custodian some discretion which could be exercised in very exceptional cases which might somewhat mitigate the hardship of those cases. My Lords, the suggestion of the noble Viscount is certainly one that should be most attentively examined, and I will myself undertake to see that it is so examined. If it is a course which can be adopted without impairing the main scheme and disturbing its efficiency, it will be agreeable to any humane person to assist in a case where the system has unhappily pressed with unusual weight.
I have not dealt with the precise order of my noble and learned friend's Question, although I think I have in fact covered all but the last two lines, which I can dismiss almost in a sentence. The noble Lord's question is," To ask His Majesty's Government whether it has been brought to their notice that the proposal to confiscate the private property of the subjects of ex-enemy countries affects adversely the basis of international security and the prospects of the British carrying trade." I do not accept the term "confiscate" as proper.
With reference to the suggestion that the methods adopted affect adversely the of international security and the prospects of the British carrying trade, I can only tell the noble and learned Lord that the Board of Trade, whom I consulted before

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preparing these few observations, very vigorously repel the suggestion which is implied in the latter part of the noble and learned Lord's Question. They say that not only is there not the slightest indication that the German merchants are unwilling to trade with us as the result of the adoption of this rule, hut, on the contrary, there is, so far as the unusual and difficult position admits, a very great willingness on thepart of Gem an merchants to trade with us. He has referred to a case in which a certain syndicate has stated that it has been made the basis of a refusal to trade with this country that we possess the property of German nationals under the Peace Treaty.
I cannot, of course, deal with an individual case; no one could unless one saw the persons who put forward that statement and cross-examined them somewhat as to why they could not resume the pre-war business. But I may point out to the noble and learned Lord that there are quite other explanations than the grounds that present themselves to him and which seem to me to be much more capable of inspiring such a decision than the treatment of German individuals and property in this country. As the noble Lord knows perfectly well, the shipping community are and have been in a state of the liveliest indignation at the elect of other clauses of the Treaty which affect them far more closely and obviously than the matter which the noble and learned Lord has raised. I have attempted, so far as I can, to deal with the points made by the noble and learned Lord, which I agree raise a grave matter of international policy. I cannot say more than that on one of the most difficult points of all the victorious Powers gave their best efforts to an attempt to reach a solution, not, I hope, forgetting the obligations of humanity, but not forgetting either the suffering and ruin of the world, and remembering that they were dealing with the representatives of the country which was the author of that ruin and suffering.
LORD PARMOOR: I have no right to reply, but I should like to thank the Lord Chancellor for what he has said.

LOCAL ELECTIONS (PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION) BILL.
LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Local Elections (Proportional Representation) Bill
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sent to the Commons has been starred with a view to its further progress. The noble and learned Lord said: The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, will recollect that when the Bill passed through your Lordships' House he said that the Department to which he belonged was in favour of the further progress of the Bill, and that, so far as he was concerned, he would do what he could in order to promote its further progress in another place. Of course, the practical way of dealing with that in the first instance would be to star the Bill. I do not know whether it has now been starred, but the last time I inquired I found that it bad not been starred. Until it has been, under the conditions which prevail, no further progress can be made.
As noble Lords are aware, there are certain self-governing communities of an important kind who are extremely anxious that this Bill should be passed, in order that they may put its principle into operation in regard to their local elections. It is an optional Bill, and therefore cannot affect those communities who oppose it. Amongst the governing bodies of this important kind who have declared in its favour are the London County Council, and, as regards provincial bodies, I want to call attention to a letter written from Leeds. The noble Lord will he aware that in Leeds they desire the Bill to pass, in order that Proportional Representation may be put into force at their coming November elections. The letter is written by Alderman Farr, who deals with these matters in Leeds with great authority. He says:—
"We in Leeds are making an application to enlarge the city, and in arranging the new wards all parties have in mind the application of Proportional Representation to local elections and we hope to arrange for triennial elections With five members for each ward. The Committee that has this work in hand, of which I am a member, is working on these lines, and we are calculating on the Bill being passed this session so that we can avail ourselves of its machinery next year. If it is not on the Statute Book we shall have to recast our plans altogether and the chance of adopting it in Leeds may be lost. I am therefore very anxious that no chance should hr missed of getting Lord Parmoor's Bill through the Commons this session."
I think that letter has been brought to the notice of the noble Lord and his Department, and it certainly seems reasonable that these great local self-governing communities, who desire to adopt a principle of this kind, should be entitled to do so. The

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opponents of the principle would not be affected, because the Bill can only be adopted by a three-fifths majority in any case.
Perhaps also I might quote an extract from a letter from the Lord Chancellor, who, as we know, has expressed views in favour of proportional representation. He says:—
"Experience, where the system has been put into operation, has consistently and convincingly refuted the criticisms which have been directed against it. and for one, feel unshaken confidence that within no distant period its acceptance as a theory will be universal, and that it will be put into practical application wherever in the civilised world representative institutions prevail."
I hope and believe that this forecast is a true forecast of the general adoption of the principle, but in the meantime why should local authorities in this country, who desire to adopt this system in their local elections, not be empowered to do so? I therefore beg to ask the noble Viscount the Question which I have put upon the Paper. I might perhaps also ask him to state at the same time what are the chances of the Bill's further progress.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (VISCOUNT ASTOR): We are not now discussing the principle of the Bill or the attitude of the Department with which I am associated. My right hon. friend the Minister and I are, individually, in favour of the principle, just as certain of the large and important self-governing communities are so much in favour of the principle. There was a similar question to this asked in the House of Commons to-day, and I understand that the Leader of the House
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replied that it was impossible, at this stage of the session, to say whether or not time would be available. To star the Bill would give the impression that the Government were undertaking to find time. In fact, the noble Lord, in his Question, asks whether the Bill "has been starred with a view to its further progress." Unfortunately —I say unfortunately as a supporter of this particular Bill—it has been opposed in another place. I do not say that the opposition is very numerous, but even a limited number of Members can retard and hold up measures, even where they are of considerable importance. To star the Bill might be misleading because it might seem to imply that the Government were undertaking to find time for it this Session. At the moment it looks as if the Government would find it difficult to meet their present commitments, and personally, I and the Minister for Health regret that nothing can be done at the moment to expedite the progress of this Bill.
LORD PARMOOR: I regret to hear what the noble Viscount has said. Perhaps he will remember that a similar Bill was sent down last year from this House, and that it was starred, although, as a matter of fact, no time was found for its further progress; but I will take his answer that he will do what he can, at any rate, and that his Department are sympathetic.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2) BILL.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
House adjourned at six o'clock.

PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY (CONSOLIDATION) BILL.
The King's consent and consent of the Prince of Wales signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 10th of March and 18th of May last discharged, and Bill committed.

MAIDENHEAD GAS BILL. [H.L.]
RISCA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
LLANDRINDOD WELLS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
MASHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
SEVERN NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.

UXBRIDGE AND WYCOMBE DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT, 1919 (DRAFT RULES).
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Select Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to revise the Draft Rules made under the Government of India Act, 1919, do meet the Lords Committee in Committee Room A, on Monday next, at half-past Two o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.