Sitting of 9 July 1919

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Tynemouth Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday, 21st July.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    PAMPHLET ("COERCION AND REPRESSION").
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to a pamphlet entitled "Coercion and Repression" in India, signed by Messrs. Smillie, Williams, and Lansbury; whether he has any information as to the extent of its distribution and effect; and whether he can make any announcement to refute the allegations contained therein?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): Yes, Sir; and I can only describe is as a collection of false statements and deductions. It contains, among other insinuations, a gross slander on the loyalty of India, which has remained unshaken notwithstanding the hostile efforts of a minute fraction of her people. The matters which the pamphlet misrepresents have been dealt with in the Debate on the Indian Budget and by answer to questions. I have nothing to show that its distribution or effect in India have been widespread; but my hon. Friend is as well aware as I of the mischief that can be caused by the circulation of statements of this kind by ill-meaning or misinformed persons.
    Colonel BURN: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise what great damage is done to the British cause in India, seeing
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    that there are names of men who were formerly Members of the House of Commons, and who are actively engaged as leaders of great industries in this country; and does he not realise what effect that has on the people of India? Is not some refutation very necessary?
    Mr. MONTAGU: That is why I welcome so much the appearance of this question on the Paper.
    Sir J. D. REES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Smillie and Mr. Williams are the same gentlemen who are concerned in the coal agitation?
    Mr. LUNN: Is it not possible to devise some means to close the mouth of anybody who holds different opinions from the members of the Government?
    Mr. MONTAGU: The hon. Member is talking about opinions. It is not a question of opinion, but a question of a misstatement of facts.

    KARACHI TROOP-TRAIN INCIDENT.
    Lieut.-Colonel W. GUINNESSasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in connection with the Karachi troop-train incident, the trains and time-table were ordered from Simla; whether Major-General Shaw went on board the "Ballarat" immediately on its arrival and personally explained to the men the dangers of sunstroke; whether he re-remained at the docks from 6 a.m. until midday and saw the first train loaded; whether he authorised the supply of one pound of ice per man per day, 120 dozen mineral waters, and other special fruit and refreshments on the train; whether he provided extra wagons over and above the normal scale of accommodation; and whether the Secretary of State will therefore now withdraw the statement that Major-General Shaw took no steps nor gave any orders to see that the safety or comfort of the troops was provided for?
    Mr. MONTAGU: My hon. and gallant Friend knows that I am of opinion that in certain respects my predecessor's statement requires modification, but the fact remains that General Shaw did not, in my opinion, act up to his full responsibilities. General Shaw has not accepted the new Court of Inquiry before which the matters raised in the question might have been re-investigated, and that appears to me to be the end of the matter.
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Is not this question an entirely separate matter from the new Court of Inquiry, and will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, with the facts before, him, as disclosed by the Court which did sit, he disputes that General Shaw took the action mentioned in the question?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I do not think we could form ourselves into a Court of Inquiry into these facts in this House. My hon. and gallant Friend asks me whether I will withdraw the statement that Major-General Shaw took no steps nor gave any orders. I think he took some steps and gave some orders. I think those orders and those steps were inadequate.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether Major-General Shaw has been offered, or accepted the offer of, any appointment in India?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I think not.

    GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
    Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for India whether, considering that it has already been announced that Sir James Meston, the finance member of the Viceroy's Executive Council, is coining home to give evidence on behalf of the Government of India before the Joint Select Committee on the Government of India Bill, and Sir Michael O'Dwyer, the late Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab has already arrived home to give evidence on behalf of the Punjab, he will now state who are the representatives of the other local Governments in India who are to come home or are already at home to give evidence before that Select Committee on behalf of their respective local Governments?
    Mr. MONTAGU: My hon. and gallant Friend is in error in supposing that Sir J. Meston has been summoned home in order to give evidence before the Joint Committee on the Government of India Bill. He is here to advise me on various matters relating to the Bill and the rules to be made under it. He is at the disposal of the Committee, but it rests with the Committee to decide whether it will hear witnesses and whom it will hear. There are several gentlemen at present in this country well qualified to explain the views of the Local Governments, if the Committee
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    desire to supplement the written statements already before it. But no representatives are being sent home for the purpose.
    Colonel YATE: Will the Governors of the various Provinces in. India be permitted to nominate their own representatives to give evidence in this country?
    Mr. MONTAGU: The only constitutional representative in Parliament of the Governors, Lieutenant-Governors or the Viceroy is the Secretary of State.

    DISCHARGED ARMY OFFICERS (GOVERNMENT POSTS).
    Mr. F. C. THOMSONasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that nothing has been done by the Government of India to find employment for those officers of the Indian Army who have been discharged from the Army on account of disability incurred on active service, and who are in many cases without adequate means of support, and whose previous training has given them few qualifications for employment in this country, he will consider the advisability of appointing such officers or recommending for appointment to Government posts in those territories in the East which have recently come under British administration?
    Mr. MONTAGU: It is not the case that nothing has been done to find employment for disabled officers of the Indian Army. In 1917 a disabled officers' employment bureau was formed in the India Office, and a Committee appointed to consider applications of officers seeking employment in the East, and to endeavour to find suitable openings for them. The Colonial Office and the War Office were represented on the Committee, and it worked in co-ordination with the Ministry of Labour and with the different Governments in India. It was instrumental in obtaining employment for a number of officers, and would have done more but that in many cases the applicants were medically rejected as unfit for employment in the East. I will communicate with other Departments, and with the Government of India, with regard to the hon. Member's suggestion, but I fear that the heavy demands that service in newly-occupied territories in the East makes on the health and physique of Europeans will often stand in the way of disabled or invalided officers.
    Mr. THOMSON: Is it not a fact that a very large number of Indian officers, disabled through active service, and still without employment, are for the most part men with small means and very little qualification for work at home, but with special Eastern experience which qualifies them in a particular degree for posts which might be offered them in Mesopotamia and Palestine? I would ask him to bear in mind this class, which has a strong claim on the community.
    Mr. MONTAGU: I quite agree with my hon. Friend that they have a very strong claim on the community, and I will do my best to find employment suitable to them.

    AFGHAN FRONTIER RISING (BRITISH CASUALTIES).
    Captain BROWNasked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the names of the British regiments recently engaged on the Afghan frontier; and what is the total number of casualties amongst British units during these operations?
    Mr. MONTAGU: Down to the 8th July inclusive the following number of casualties in British units on the North-West Frontier have been reported:

    Killed and died of wounds:

    Officers

    …

    …

    3

    Other ranks

    …

    …

    33

    Wounded:

    Officers

    …

    …

    9

    Other ranks

    …

    …

    109

    The Government of India, for military reasons, consider it undesirable at present to publish the names of the units engaged.
    Captain BROWN: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Ameer of Afghanistan will learn of the smallness of our force if the numbers are published? In view of the fact that the British regiments are all 1914–15 men, surely something might be published?
    Mr. MONTAGU: I do not think it would be proper for me to express an opinion upon military matters. The question was put to the Government of India, and the Government of India, for military reasons, did not wish to publish the names, and it would be improper for a civilian to do so.
    Captain BROWN: Could not the right hon. Gentleman press the Government of
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    India to that extent? It is a great hardship on these men, who have been kept in service—not unreasonably, I admit— that not a word is allowed to appear at home of what they are doing.
    Mr. MONTAGU: The names will be published ultimately, but I hope the House will not press me to ask those responsible for military operations to do something which they regard as militarily unwise.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    NAVAL BRIGADE (INTERNMENT).
    Captain H. BENNasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Board of Admiralty have arrived at any decision as regards the conduct of Commodore Henderson and the officers of the first Royal Naval Brigade who crossed the Dutch frontier during the retreat from Antwerp in 1914 and were interned in Holland?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Long): I am very glad to say that, after full inquiry and consideration, the Board of Admiralty are satisfied that in the circumstances existing at the time Commander Henderson was justified in his decision to intern the brigade in Holland, and that no blame is attached to him or to any officer or man under his orders.

    GERMAN FLEET (SINKING AT SCAPA FLOW).
    Commander Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to give any further information with reference to the sinking of the German Fleet; whether the Admiralty received any warning or information, verbal or in writing, of the intention of the Germans to sink their ships; if so, what action was taken; and what warships were actually in Scapa Flow while the sinking of the German ships was being carried out?
    Mr. LONG: The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. When the first signs of the German ships sinking was observed, the position of His Majesty's ships based on Scapa was as follows: In harbour, two guard destroyers, one destroyer depot ship, one defective destroyer alongside depot ship; at sea, exercising, five battleships of the First Battle Squadron, two

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    flotilla-leaders, and six destroyers, under the orders of Vice-Admiral Commanding First Battle Squadron. As soon as information was received by the vice-admiral that German ships were sinking, British ships at sea, exercising, returned to harbour with all dispatch, the first ship arriving about 2 p.m. and the last at 4 p.m.
    Viscount CURZON: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to state that no information or warning was conveyed to the Admiralty beforehand?
    Mr. LONG: My Noble Friend did not hear my answer. I have stated that quite definitely.
    Lieut-Commander KENWORTHY: Has he had any warning about the ex-German battle cruiser "Goeben"?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That relates to another question.
    Mr. LONG: That has nothing to do with this question.

    H.M.S. "HIGHFLYER."
    Commander Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what are the reasons for retaining His Majesty's Ship "Highflyer" as the flagship on the East India station; and can her relief by a more modern type of ship be considered?
    Mr. LONG: Older ships are relieved as opportunity arises and when the Board of Admiralty think proper.

    ROYAL FLEET RESERVISTS (RETAINER).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the rates of Navy pay and pensions have been advanced, he will consider the question of increasing the retainer paid to the Royal Fleet reservists proportionately?
    Mr. LONG: This question was considered by the Jerram Committee, but was not recommended. The Board of Admiralty agree with the opinion of the Committee, and do not propose to re-open the question.

    RIGID AIRSHIPS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what will be the total cost of the six rigid
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    airships of an improved type now under construction for the Navy; whether the signature of Peace will enable the building of some or all of these expensive airships to be postponed; and, if not, why is there no difference between the War and Peace airship programmes?
    Mr. LONG: The estimated total cost of the six rigid airships is £2,200,000. The rigid airship programme was thoroughly revised shortly after the Armistice was signed, and was reduced as far as is consistent with the Peace requirements of the Navy, and with the necessary development of the Airship service. No further reduction is at present contemplated. It should be noted that the six airships are not, as implied in the question, of a single type, but of several types, representing successive stages of development.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Is it proposed to hand over the construction of the lighter-than-air-craft to the Air Ministry; and, if so, when?
    Mr. LONG: That does not arise on this question at all.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not to be taken into consideration, in the interests of scientific experiment, at any rate, to postpone this building and the expenditure of this money until a later date, and until we have bad more experience of this kind of vessel?
    Mr. LONG: Those questions have already been taken into consideration by the Board of Admiralty in arriving at their decision.

    COAST WATCHERS.
    Major O'NEILLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many Coast Watchers were employed in Ireland during the War; whether their wages were considerably below the minimum wage for agricultural labourers; what it would cost to give them gratuities similar to those of soldiers and sailors; and. in view of the very valuable services which they have rendered to the country, will he arrange for the granting of such gratuities to them?
    Mr. LONG: The number of Coast Watchers employed in Ireland during the War was approximately 500 on the average. I am not aware that their wages were considerably below the minimum wage for agricultural labourers; on the contrary, they were settled with regard to

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    the average agricultural wages payable in the same district. The cost of giving them gratuities similar to those of soldiers and sailors would be about £6,000. My hon. Friend will, however, realise that it would be impossible to make an exception in their favour without also considering Coast Watchers in England and Scotland—
    Major MORGAN: And Wales!
    Mr. LONG: And many others who, although not members of the fighting forces, have rendered valuable services to the country during the War.
    Major O'NEILL: Is it not the fact that the final wage of these men was 25s. 6d., and that that was accorded in March last, many months after the Armistice, when their duties were practically over. Does not that prove that they were underpaid during the greater part of the War, and could the right hon. Gentleman not consider granting these men, at any rate, such bonus as will give them adequate reward for their services?
    Mr. LONG: I cannot answer the question as to the precise amount—I have no information with me. But all the considerations suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend have been taken into account. I would remind the House that it is impossible to deal with each case separately. There are an enormous number of men and women who have rendered invaluable services during the War, and it is almost inevitable that there should be a distinction between what is called actual war service and service at home.

    SECOND-CLASS PETTY-OFFICEK RATINGS (PAY).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that some dissatisfaction is felt among second-class petty officer ratings with regard to pay, pension, and promotion; and has he any statement to make on the subject?
    Mr. LONG: No representations on this matter have been received, exceptone from my hon. Friend to which, as he will recollect, a full reply was sent on the 26th June. As explained therein, there does not appear to the Admiralty, as at present advised, to be any ground for such dissatisfaction.

    JERRAM REPORT.
    Sir CHARLES HANSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in
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    view of the anxiety and uncertainty as to their exact position at present prevailing amongst the commissioned ranks of the Royal Navy, he is now in a position to state when the Jerram Report on the pay and pensions of Royal Marine and naval officers and the decision of the Government will be published?
    Mr. LONG: I judge that it may be possible to announce the decisions almost any day now.

    BUILDING PROGRAMME.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if there is any public reason for withholding the naval building programme of the Government; and, if not, will he give information as to the number and class of ships now building, or contemplated to be laid down, by the Admiralty before the 31st March next?
    Mr. LONG: The Navy Estimates, which will be published very shortly, will contain full information in regard to ships under construction.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Will the Naval Estimates be published before the end of this part of the Session?
    Mr. LONG: Oh, yes, they will be published before we take them.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the date when the Naval Estimates; will be taken?
    Mr. LONG: No, I could not possibly do that, but obviously they must be taken before long.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman publish before the Estimates are taken the Return— known, I think, as the Dilke Return— showing the ships already built and other various details?
    Mr. LONG: No; we shall give with the Navy Estimates all the information that is usually given when the Estimates are presented to Parliament.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Will that usual statement include the statement usually made before the War by the First Lord of the Admiralty?
    Mr. LONG: On the whole, I think not. The termination of the War and the present situation is such as to make it undesirable that we should issue a statement of the same character as issued before the War, and when we were at peace.

    BOY BLUEJACKETS (COMMISSIONS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any decision has been arrived at as to the institution of special facilities to enable boy bluejackets to train for commissions in the Royal Navy; and whether any information about the examinations for the special entry cadets has been circulated in Admiralty Weekly Orders?
    Mr. LONG: A Committee has been appointed to consider the desirability and practicability of offering facilities to enable boy bluejackets to train for commissions in the Royal Navy. Information as to the next examination, in June, 1920, for special entry cadets, will be promulgated in Admiralty Weekly Orders.

    TRAWLERS AND DRIFTERS (WAR SERVICE).
    Major McKENZIE WOODasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many trawlers and drifters which were taken for war service have been returned to the owners since nth November, 1918; how many remain in the hands of the Admiralty; and what is the average weekly cost of those not yet handed over?
    Mr. LONG: On 8th June, 1,263 trawlers and drifters had been returned to owners, leaving 1,186 still on charter. Of those remaining on charter there are approximately 400 now actually in hand reconditioning and 375 waiting at the reconditioning ports for their turn to be taken in hand. The average weekly cost of hire of the trawlers and drifters remaining on charter may be taken as being approximately £20 and £10 respectively.

    ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE.
    Mr. W. NICHOLSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether officers of the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve are en titled on demobilisation to retain the rank they have held in the Navy during the War; whether they are entitled to use the designation of that rank as a prefix to their names in civilian life; in what circumstances such officers will have the privilege of appearing in uniform; and whether in future they will be required to wear full dress or service uniform on ceremonial occasions?
    Mr. LONG: The question whether officers of the Royal Naval Reserve and Royal
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    Naval Volunteer Reserve will be allowed to wear their uniform and retain their rank after demobilisation has been under the consideration of the Admiralty Reconstruction Committee, whose Report is now before the Board. I regret that no definite reply to the question can be given now, but I hope to be able to make an announcement on the subject in a few days. No full-dress uniform need be provided either for Royal Naval Reserve or Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers at present.

    BATTLE OF JUTLAND.
    Commander Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to state when Captain Harper's investigation into the Battle of Jutland will be completed; and, if so, will the Report be published in full?
    Mr. LONG: It is anticipated that the record, together with plans showing the tracks followed by all squadrons concerned, will be completed by the end of September, 1919. As stated in the reply to my Noble Friend's question on 26th March, it is proposed to consider the question of the publication of the narrative when it is completed.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the position of the wrecked ''Invincible" has yet been located?
    Mr. LONG: I cannot say.

    BRITISH PILOTS (ALLEGED TREACHERY).
    Mr. INSKIPasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he Las been made aware of a notice issued during hostilities by the Director of Transports warning masters of transports to be on their watch against treachery on the part of British pilots; what foundation is alleged to have existed for the suggestion that British pilots are capable of treachery so as to require a special watch to be put upon their actions; whether British pilots have displayed throughout the War the same loyalty as the masters of transports; and whether steps can be taken to withdraw these imputations?
    Mr. LONG: I find that the following Circular was issued in May, 1916, by the Director of Transports:
    "In view of the possibility of treachery on the part of pilots, British or otherwise, engaged in outlying waters, masters of transports should

    1789
    remain on the bridge with the pilot, strictly watch his navigation and not hesitate to interfere if the safety of the transport is being endangered by the pilot.
    It should be clearly understood, however, that this warning is given as a precaution against possible treachery, and is intended to apply only when the acts of the pilot give rise to suspicion of his good faith."
    It will be seen from the wording of the Circular that it was precautionary only, and applied to pilots of all nationalities in every part of the world, and, whether happily phrased or not, it could not fairly be described as an imputation upon any one. No incident involving treachery had occurred, but the Director of Transports thought it his duty to issue such a general instruction, on consideration of the vital importance of the safety of our transports and the ease with which a vessel could be cast away.
    I gladly take this opportunity of stating that, in the view of the Admiralty, the loyalty, devotion, daring, and skill of British pilots throughout the War have been beyond praise, and their services merit the admiration and gratitude of the Empire.

    ENGINEER OFFICERS (SERVANTS' ALLOWANCES).
    Major Sir B. FALLEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can make any statement as to servants' allowances to engineer officers, Royal Navy?
    Mr. LONG: It is assumed that the engineer officers referred to are those holding appointments as engineer overseers. The grant of servants' allowance to these officers under the same conditions as to other officers has been approved, and the necessary instructions in regard to payment are about to be issued.

    NAVAL OFFICERS' PAY.
    Commander Viscount CURZONasked the Prime Minister when the decision on naval officers' pay will be promulgated?
    Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): The Report of the Cabinet Committee which is dealing with this matter has not yet been received, but I hope that an announcement of the Government's decision will be made shortly.
    Viscount CURZON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extreme anxiety amongst naval officers on this question of
    1790
    their pay and their anomalous position as compared with the lower deck, and may we expect a decision at an early date?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Yes. I am quite aware of the urgency and importance of it, and it has been discussed already several times. I cannot say more than I have said, that we are doing our best to come to an early decision.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the decision of the Government shall be known before the Naval Estimates come on?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That will certainly be.

    SUBMARINE RAISING INVENTION.
    Mr. M'GUFFINasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if ho can now say what is the exact claim of Chief Engineer-Room Artificer Isaac Gibson, of submarine A 10, to the invention of the device by which this craft when she accidentally sank below the control of her pumps was raised from thirty-two fathoms of water shortly after the outbreak of War in 1914; whether he can account for the conflicting statements made by the Admiralty on the matter by which he is admitted as co-inventor with his commanding officer in one case and in another as only applying a device which at the time was known to the Admiralty; whether he can state an instance in which it was applied prior to that time and, if so, the name of the submarine, the date, and the depth from which she was raised; whether also Mr. Burgess, the inspector of inventions under the Admiralty, was ordered to report with respect to the device; whether under his superintendence the same craft was taken to forty fathoms and deliberately sunk as a test of the efficacy of the invention and raised as before; and whether, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, the Admiralty will consider a revision of the monetary allotment made to the widow and children of this man, who perished in the service of his country when his submarine was sunk by His Majesty's Ship "Fearless" on the night of 31st January, 1918?
    Mr. LONG: As the answer to this question is somewhat lengthy, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The following is the answer prepared:
    I am advised that the device referred to was well known, and was, in fact, patented in 1905. I am further advised that the suggestion which Chief Engine-room Artificer Gibson made to his commanding officer cannot be regarded as an invention, and was in fact simply an adaptation of existing and available gear to enable it to perform the work of gear already installed in all later classes of submarines. I am assured that Mr. Gibson has never been described as "co-inventor with his commanding officer."
    I understand that Mr. Burgess, who is referred to in the latter part of the question, is a draughtsman, and was at no time appointed as or had authority to describe himself as an Inspector of Inventions. He attended the trials of submarine A 10 in connection with fittings intended to replace the existing diving rudders of submarines. He received no instructions as to taking the boat to a depth of forty fathoms to test the device referred to in the question. There is no record in the OFFICIAL REPORTS of the trials mentioned of any such action having been taken, and it is highly improbable that any such directions would be issued, as submarine A 10 was an obsolete type of boat whose tanks were not designed for such a depth of submergence. The last part of the question is for the consideration of the Ministry of Pensions.

  TRANSPORT WORKERS (INVERNESS).
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNEasked the "First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the discontent among the Inverness transport workers on account of the Admiralty refusing to pay the 12½ per cent. that has been paid to other workers for some months past; and, in consequence of the difference between the Admiralty and the transport workers, whether he is prepared to have the case dealt with by arbitration?
  Mr. LONG: Representations have been received regarding the non-payment to the employés referred to of the 12½ per cent. bonus. It has recently been decided to increase the wages of those men from £2 12s. to £3 a week; but, if the accredited representatives of the men contend that these men are still underpaid, no objection
  1792
  will be raised by the Department to the matter being referred to the Court of Arbitration.

  PEACE CELEBRATIONS.

    NAVAL SQUADRON.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the desire of the people of London and adjoining river districts to provide a proper welcome to the officers and men of the naval squadron who are to visit the Thames as part of the Peace celebrations; and whether, in order to allow time for the proper organisation of the reception and public welcome, he can now state the date when the ships will arrive in the Thames, the number of vessels that will compose the squadron, and in about what parts of the river the various ships will be moored?
    Mr. LONG: Owing to various and heavy commitments, it has not been found possible to assemble in the Thames sufficient of His Majesty's ships to allow of any being berthed in any part of the river other than Southend, where the available ships will lie. There will be, approximately, 13 battleships, 2 battle-cruisers, 4 light cruisers, and a certain number of destroyers and submarines. The ships will be assembled in the Thames on 17th July and will remain till 23rd July.
    Lieut.-Colonel THORNE: Will any facilities be given by the railway companies to convey passengers to Southend to see the ships?
    Mr. LONG: I am afraid I cannot make any statement on that at present. My hon. Friend knows that the situation is abnormal and the difficulty of the arrangements is considerable. We are now in communication with the various local and railway authorities on the subject, and I hope an announcement will be made shortly.
    Mr. GILBERT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in view of the shortage of ordinary boats at present, the Admiralty will give any facilities for the small boats in the upper parts of the river to go down to Southend?
    Mr. LONG: All these questions are in the hands of a very competent Committee, on which Admiral Horsley represents the Board of Admiralty, and these suggestions will be brought before that Committee.

    ALLIED TROOPS.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAINasked the Prime Minister whether it has been found possible to secure attendance during the Peace celebrations of representatives of the forces of our Continental Allies; and, if so, from which countries units may be expected?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I am glad that it has been possible to arrange for the representation of the Allies during Peace celebrations as my hon. Friend suggested. A full statement on the subject appeared in the Press yesterday.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is there any likelihood that the troops of our French Ally may be accompanied to this country by their great leader, Marshal Foch?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I am afraid that is not possible.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    NAVAL PETTY OFFICERS.
    Commander KINGasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of discharged petty officers and men at present in receipt of pensions on the pre-war scale; and how many of these are totally incapacitated and partially disabled, respectively, as the result of injuries received whilst serving in the Royal Navy during times of peace?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Colonel Sir James Craig): I have been asked to reply to this question. The number of pre-war disability pensions at present in payment is approximately 7,000. I regret that I cannot furnish more detailed information.
    Commander KING: Does the Department of the hon. and gallant Gentleman deal with pre-war pensions other than war pensions?
    Sir J. CRAIG: Disability pensions.

    INJURIES IN EARLIER WARS.
    Commander KINGasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the increased pensions granted in respect of injuries received in previous wars, similar consideration may be given
    1794
    to men who have equally suffered in their country's service by accidental wounds received in times of peace?
    Sir J. CRAIG: The decision of the Government, which my right hon. Friend announced last week, does not include men injured in the performance of naval or military duty in time of peace. My right hon. Friend will, however, be prepared to consider individual cases of hardship and to represent them to the Treasury for such increase of pension as appears to be warranted by the circumstances of the injury and the needs, of the pensioner.

    ADMIRALTY MESSENGERS.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked why the Admiralty messengers who were mobilised and liable to active service during the War, but were retained at their civil duties by the Admiralty, are being debarred from receiving the increase in pension for the past four and a half years under the Jerram Report, seeing that it was owing to official orders that they were retained at their messenger duties and thus prevented from joining their depot or ship, where they would have qualified for the increased pension; and whether, in view of the fact that there are at present at the Admiralty service ratings doing the same duties as messengers who will receive the increased pension, the same privileges will be extended to regular messengers?
    Mr. LONG: Apparently, the reference is to the increase in pensions earned by war service. This is granted under the King's Regulations, and not under the Jerram Report. The messengers in question are debarred from this increase, which is limited by the Regulations to pensioners actually serving. They are not debarred from the increase in pension granted, under the Jerram Report, as from the 1st April last. As members of the regular messenger staff they suffered no disturbance of their civil occupation, and no ground is therefore seen for according them the same treatment as those who actually served.

    POSTAL SIGNAL SECTION COMPANY.
    Mr. ATKEYasked the Secretary of State for War whether, when war broke out, an advertisement appeared in the Post Office Circular asking men to join the Postal Section Signal Company, Royal

    1795
    Engineers, with full civil pay and all Army allowances; whether this would include payment of war gratuity; and, if not, will he state the reasons?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): I have not seen the advertisement referred to, but in any case it can only have entitled the soldier to the Army pay and allowances then under regulation. The grant of war gratuity was specially made in December last, and is subject to the conditions announced when it was made.

  OUT-OF-WORK DONATION.

    LINDA MAY TAYLOR (PROSECUTION).
    Mr. ALFRED SHORTasked the Minister of Labour whether he will call for a Report respecting the prosecution of Linda May Taylor, of 4, Handley Street, Wednesbury; and whether he proposes to act on the magistrate's advice?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Robert Horne): The facts of this case, which was heard on 20th June, have already been reported to me. The charge against the defendant was that of fraudulently giving a false age for the purpose of obtaining a higher rate of donation than to which she was entitled. In dismissing the case on the ground that she had made a mistake, the chairman of the magistrates is reported to have expressed the opinion that it would be very much better if the Employment Clerk always obtained a birth certificate before paying any money in any doubtful cases. A rule to this effect has been in operation since the beginning of April, but the present case arose before that date.

  GERMAN PRISONERS (AGRICULTURAL EMPLOYMENT).
  Mr. A. SHORTasked the Minister of Labour what number of German prisoners are now employed in the industries of this country; whether he will state the number employed in each industry; and what steps are being taken to supersede such labour by British labour?
  Sir R. HORNE: The number of prisoners of war employed in this country
  1796
  on 1st July was 31,595. Of this number 22,146 were engaged upon agricultural work, 8,821 on trench filling and other military work for the War Office, and 628 were in employment with the Buxton lime firms by agreement with the trade union concerned. In every case in which civilian labour becomes available in the district in which the prisoners are working, the men are automatically withdrawn and superseded by civilian labour, so that the number of prisoners employed is being continually diminished.
  Mr. G. TERRELL: When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to send all these men back to Germany?
  Sir R. HORNE: We propose to send them back as rapidly as possible. As nay hon. Friend realises, there is a considerable amount of skilled agricultural work now being performed by these prisoners, and the Board of Agriculture inform me that they are unable to dispense them.
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNE: If Peace is ratified to-day will he advise the Government to return all the German prisoners at once?
  Sir R. HORNE: When Peace is ratified I think certain operations take place automatically in connection with that matter.
  Mr. SHORT: Are there not a number of English agricultural labourers in this country at present unemployed?
  Sir R. HORNE: There are upon the books of the Exchanges a certain number of men who have described themselves as agricultural labourers who, on a scrutiny, are not always found to be skilled in agricultural operations, and in many cases the farmers reject the men who describe themselves in this way. In other cases where suitable men are available the lack of housing accommodation creates a very great difficulty, but we endeavour in every instance to employ British labour where we can.
  Mr. SPENCER: Are we to take it that all the German prisoners employed were accustomed to agricultural work before they became prisoners?
  Sir R. HORNE: Yes, there were a certain number who were skilled agriculturists. They were carefully selected, and all the men now employed are men skilled in those operations.
  Mr. SHORT: Is the employment of these German prisoners to the financial advantage of farmers as compared with the employment of British labour?
  Sir R. HORNE: No, not at all. Every German prisoner employed is paid the same rate of wages as a British civilian labourer would get, and it is only because of the lack of skilled agricultural labour in this country that these men are employed at all.
  Colonel YATE: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that if these labourers are suddenly removed it may cause a great set back to agriculture?
  Sir R. HORNE: We must accept that when it comes.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are still a great many agricultural labourers in the Army?
  Sir R. HORNE: Yes, but hon. Members know how that occurred, and I need not dilate upon it further.

  DARLASTON EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE (HOT STAMPERS).
  Mr. A. SHORTasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Darlaston Employment Exchange recently offered to fill vacancies for hot stampers at Preston; whether the rates of wages offered were less than the district rate; whether the chairman of the Walsall Referees Court declined to accept the evidence of the Secretary of the Associated Blacksmiths; whether the donation Benefit was consequently refused; and, if so, whether he will cause an inquiry to be instituted?
  Sir R. HORNE: No report has been made to me as to the case mentioned by the hon. Member, but I am causing inquiries to be made, and will let him know the result.

  BRITISH CONSUL, ROME.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. HOAREasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the post of Consul is now vacant in Rome; what are the present salary and allowances attached to it; and
  1798
  whether in making a new appointment he will consider the advisability of raising it to the rank of Consul-General, and will appoint no one but a British-born subject?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harms-worth): The Consular post at Rome is an unsalaried Consulate carrying an office allowance of £520 a year plus £100 a year allowance to the Vice-Consul, who has been in charge since the late Mr. Morgan's departure. It is not proposed to alter the status of the post, but a British subject will be selected as successor to Mr. Morgan, provided a suitable and well-qualified candidate can be found willing to accept the appointment.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: May we take it that that decision is only temporary and that it will be reconsidered?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I will consider the point.
  Colonel YATE: Is it not advisable that we should have a proper Consul-General in the capital of all the Great Powers?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: That matter was very carefully considered, but I will look into it.

  POLISH TOWNS (MASSACRES).
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the indignation prevailing in Jewish circles in this country at the continued massacres of the defenceless Jewish populations in Polish towns; and whether he can see his way, in conjunction with the Allies, to take any steps that will put an end to these outrages?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: The reply to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. In regard to the second part, His Majesty's Minister in Warsaw has already made representations to the Polish Government about the ill-treatment of Jews in Poland, and the United States Minister has done the same. I am confident, as I informed the hon. Member for the Hartlepools on 30th June, that these representations have been effective, and that the Polish Government are determined to prevent anything in the nature of organised attacks upon the persons or property of Jews.
  Mr. RAPER: Is it not a fact that in every case for some time after these massacres were reported a Mission was sent to inquire into them, and does not their Report prove that many of the accounts given were exaggerated? Is there any reason why the Reports should not be published?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: The question of publishing the Reports is now under consideration.
  Mr. RAPER: Is it not a fact that these Reports have been received?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I have already stated in the House that later Reports indicate that there has been exaggeration.

  EGYPT.

    STATE OF PROVINCES.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a short statement relative to the recent disturbances in Egypt, the steps which have been taken to restore order, and the intentions of the Government as to the reinstitution of constitutional government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: There is little to add to the statements made in Parliament on 15th May last.
    For some time past General Allen by has reported that the state of the Provinces is practically normal. Steps are being taken to repair the damage which has been done to Government property, but some time will inevitably elapse before communications can be restored to their original condition. The large towns also are reported to be quiet, but there is still some agitation in El Azhar University. The strike of Suez Canal employés terminated on 10th June and since then the situation in the canal zone has been normal.
    On the outbreak of the disturbances mobile columns were dispatched to the different Provinces to visit disaffected districts and to restore law and order. These mobile columns were accompanied by political officers acquainted with the particular districts. Inquiries are being conducted and offenders are being brought before military Courts. Sentences imposed by these Courts are carefully revised by officers possessing a legal training and a knowledge of the country.
    1800
    As regards the reinstitution of constitutional government, the Council of Ministers are transacting business as usual, but it is understood that it is not intended to summon the Legislative Assembly at present.
    Captain BENN: Cannot the hon. Gentleman add to his statement any explanation of the cause of the disturbances?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I cannot do it offhand.
    Captain BENN: Was not a question put down on this very point, and was not the House informed that the High Commissioner in Egypt was examining into it?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I told the House he was doing so in preparation for the Royal Commission which was going there.
    Captain BENN: Is this House not entitled to know the results of his inquiries?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: He went there to make them for the purposes of the Special Commission.
    Captain BENN: What steps can we take to find out what is going on in Egypt?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: My hon. and gallant Friend must know the ordinary methods and channels by which debate can be instituted.

  RUSSIA.

    SOVIET REPUBLIC PRESS.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether no newspapers issued in parts of Russia under the control of the Russian Soviet Republic are permitted to enter the United Kingdom, although the Foreign. Office still obtains copies of these papers; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of allowing these newspapers to be brought into this country?
    Mr. FORSTER: I am not aware of any prohibition.
    Mr. T. SHAW: Is there a Soviet Republic there?
    Mr. FORSTER: Perhaps one of the hon. Member's friends near him can answer that question.

  EAST AFRICA (LAND SETTLEMENT SCHEME).
  Brigadier - General Sir OWEN THOMASasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in regard to the Memorandum of conditions of the East African land settlement scheme issued by the Colonial Office, under which applications for farms by ex-soldiers are being invited, he can explain the foot note in such Memorandum that the catalogues giving full details and prices of the farms will not be available for some time, in view of the official notification in the East African Press on 26th April that these catalogues had already been sent to London; and why ex-soldiers should be invited to apply for land of which no details as to price and locality are available for them?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Lieut.-Colonel Amery): Only one copy of the catalogue was sent to this country, and the work of reprinting has taken time and has been much interrupted by frequent alterations in the catalogue reported by telegram from East Africa. The final printing is now awaiting a telegram on certain points of detail, but the catalogue should soon be in the hands of approved applicants.
  Sir O. THOMASasked the Under secretary of State for the Colonies, in regard to the warnings contained in the Memorandum on the East African land settlement scheme, as to the absence of road and railway communications to the majority of the farms offered, whether the Governor of the Protectorate has applied for a grant of £3,000,000 for rail way construction; if so, whether sanction has been, or will be, given to such expenditure; and, if such sanction has not yet been given, how the Government pro pose to fix the prices of the farms offered without a concurrent decision upon a definite policy for extending internal communications?
  Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: The general question of the provision of loan funds for Eastern Africa is under consideration. Until it is known what sums will be available, and at what dates and what services can be undertaken at an early date, it is obviously undesirable to hold out to intending settlers expectations which might prove misleading.
  1802
  The values assigned to the various farms were determined by a local committee. I presume that regard was had to the prices at which similar land in the same neighbourhoods is now changing hands, and I understand that the values fixed are regarded by those well qualified to judge as constituting a generous offer on the part of the Government.
  Sir O. THOMASasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies, in regard to the Memorandum on the East African land settlement scheme, and in view of the number of soldiers still serving in Egypt and the East, and the impossibility of their applications arriving in London by 14th July, whether the date which has been fixed for the closing of applications can be extended; and, further, if allotments are made to London applicants on 1st August, how under Clause 22 of the terms can the Governor be notified by 25th August of any interchange of farms between the allottees in view of the delays and infrequency of mail communications, and the unsatisfactory conditions of the cable services
  Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: Public notice has already been given of the extension of the dates by one month, but it is desirable in the interests of intending settlers that the work of the scheme should be completed as soon as possible, and soldiers serving in very remote places may in any case be too late for inclusion in the present scheme.
  The question of further extending the period for arranging exchange of farms is under consideration with the Governor, but new arrangements are being made by which a choice of farms will be possible in this country. In any case, if applicants are content to leave their interests in the hands of the local firms who have offered their services for the purpose, there should be no difficulty in bringing the work of exchange to an early conclusion.
  Sir O. THOMASasked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies, in regard to the warning contained in the Memorandum on the East African land settlement scheme, whether, in view of the present exchange value of the rupee (1s. 8d. against the par value of 1s. 4d.), the Government intends to take any steps, by an alteration in the currency or otherwise, to ameliorate a state of affairs which will result in great financial hardship to ex-soldier settlers and is in general

  1803
  producing financial chaos in the protectorate and is acting as a deterrent to the introduction of capital and the economic requirements of the Protectorate; and whether, in regard to the statement in paragraph six of the note which accompanies the Memorandum that no information as to the agricultural work in the Protectorate or as to the suitability of certain areas for particular purposes other than that contained in the handbook, etc., he will consider the establishment in London of a competent agency, such as every other Colony possesses, to give accurate technical and topographical information to intending settlers?
  Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: The position in East Africa arising out of the appreciation of the rupee is engaging the earnest consideration of the Secretary of State.
  While it has not been possible with the limited staff available to undertake to give detailed information on agricultural matters in connection with the settlement scheme, a considerable amount of information is accessible from official and unofficial sources. The Oversea Settlement Office has given much assistance in this matter and as it develops and the information at its disposal increases it should fulfil all the requirements of an office such as the hon. and gallant Member suggests. I might add that the Oversea Settlement Office arranged for a lecture and discussion on the subject by Major Grogan, which took place yesterday, and the report of which will be available on application at the Oversea Settlement Office.

  NEW BASFORD SCHOOLS (MILITARY OCCUPATION).
  Lieut.-Col. Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that schools which are urgently needed by the education authorities and buildings which are required for industrial purposes are at present occupied by the Labour Corps pay office, he will take over the national ordnance factory, High Church Street, New Basford, which is being vacated by the Ministry of Munitions, and transfer the pay office to these premises?
  Mr. FORSTER: I hope it may be possible to make this arrangement.

  DEMOBILISATION.

    APPLICATIONS FOR RELEASE.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give instructions for the release of Sapper F. Rains, No. 160063,. 521st London Field Company, Royal Engineers, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, at present on leave in England, whose home has been broken up as a result of his wife's illness, so that he may take up the civil employment awaiting him?
    Mr. FORSTER: In the absence of particulars of length of service, age, etc., I am unable to state whether this soldier will come under the terms of the instructions recently issued providing for the early release of all men who are eligible for demobilisation. If he is not so eligible his case may come under the Rules governing releases on compassionate grounds, and on receipt of a certified statement giving the full facts and particulars, the case will be fully considered. I am sending my Noble Friend a copy of the instructions on the subject for his guidance.

    KEY INDUSTRIES.
    Mr. T. SHAWasked the Prime Minister if the Government has yet decided which of the national industries are key industries; and, if so, will he give the list to the House?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Auckland Geddes): I have been asked to answer this question. I have nothing to add to the statement I made in the House upon trade policy on 24th June.

    DEDUCTIONS FROM GRATUITIES.
    Major Earl WINTERTONasked the Secretary for War if he is aware that great discontent is being caused among demobilised soldiers by the deduction of hospital stoppages, and lost kit and equipment stoppages, in many cases incurred months before the man's demobilisation, from gratuities; and if he is aware that these incidents are largely due to the carelessness of many units in their entries in men's Army Books 64?
    Mr. FORSTER: I am afraid that I cannot undertake to modify the Regulation under which the war gratuity is attachable for a debt arising in respect of deficiencies of articles of equipment specified on the-

    1805
    soldier's dispersal certificate. It is not attachable for anything else, and if the soldiers who have had other deductions made from their gratuities will forward particulars to the Secretary, War Office (Accounts 2, Complaints), the matter will be inquired into.
    Earl WINTERTON: The question is, whether he is aware of the great discontent which is being caused amongst demobilised soldiers at these deductions, and whether he is aware that these incidents are largely due to the carelessness of many units in their entries in men's Army Books 64?
    Mr. FORSTER: I have answered the specific question on the Paper. I am afraid I cannot undertake to modify the Regulation in question. I am not aware of the incidents alluded to in the latter part of the question of my Noble Friend, but I will make inquiries.

    COMPASSIONATE RELEASE.
    Mr. GIDEON MURRAYasked the Secretary for War whether, in view of the signing of Peace, he will now consider the immediate revision and extension of the grounds upon which release from the Army may be granted for compassionate reasons?
    Mr. FORSTER: Fresh Instructions were issued on the 4th instant, extending the grounds on which compassionate releases could be granted. I will send my hon. Friend a copy.

    LABOUR BUREAU RECOMMENDATIONS.
    Captain R. TERRELLasked whether the provision of the recent Army Order affecting the demobilisation of those who before 1st February, 1919, were certified for release by the Minister of Labour embraces those whose release was recommended specifically before that date by the local labour bureaux?
    Mr. FORSTER: I presume my hon. and gallant Friend refers to men who received a contract offer of employment, such as to secure their registration as slip-men These men are not affected by the recent Army Order unless they are eligible for demobilisation under Army Order 55, i.e., on the grounds of length of service, age, or wound stripes, etc. I have often pointed out that the mere fact that a man is registered as a slip-man does not in itself render him eligible for demobilisation.

  NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICAN SHIPPING TRADE.
  Mr. HOUSTONasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the shipping trade between North and South America and vice versâ was created by British shipowners and almost exclusively maintained by British steamers until after the outbreak of war, when practically the whole of the British steamers engaged in this trade were withdrawn for the purpose of carrying troops and supplies for the Allies; whether he is aware that steamers under the American and neutral flags were put on to this service; whether he is aware that the United States Shipping Board have brought American firms into this trade who, prior to the War, were not engaged in it, and have placed a large number of steamers in the hands of these firms for this service; whether services have been started by the United States Shipping Board and its agents to South Africa and Australia; whether the United States authorities have expressed their determination to make strenuous efforts to capture these various trades; and whether, in view of the sacrifices and services rendered by British shipowners during the War, diplomatic representations will be made to the American Government on this matter with the object of preventing competition and friction between Great Britain and the United States?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of SHIPPING (Colonel Leslie Wilson): I have been asked to reply to this question. The Shipping Controller is well aware of the sacrifices which British shipowners engaged in the trades to which the hon. Member refers were required to make during the War, and all possible steps consistent with the maintenance of the essential imports of this country are now being taken to enable them to recover their pre-war position in these trades. The Government do not consider, however, that the employment of American tonnage could usefully or properly be made the subject of representations to the United States Government.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this strenuous competition is likely to engender ill-feeling, and would not that be deplorable as between America and this country? Should not every effort be made to prevent it?
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is there any reason why it should not be talked over in a friendly manner with the American Government?
  Colonel WILSON: My hon. Friend knows that, while the policy of the Shipping Controller is to free all merchant shipping from control as soon as possible, consideration must be given to the import of essential commodities into this country.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that he has entirely misapprehended the question?
  Mr. ROSE: Will the hon. Member use his influence to induce the Government to call on the Charity Commissioners to do something for these unfortunate shipowners?

  HOUSING AND TOWN PLANNING BILL.
  Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Prime Minister whether the Government is prepared to amend the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill, for England and Wales so that the whole of the additional powers which are granted to Scotland in its Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill may be equally available for England and Wales?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: In view of the delay which it would involve, I think it would not be right to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
  Mr. THOMSON: Will steps be taken to give England the same powers as Scotland?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I do not think it would be desirable to delay the Bill for the sake of these Amendments.

  RHINE ARMY OF OCCUPATION (ARREST OF PROPAGANDISTS).
  Mr. LUNNasked the Prime Minister whether any British civilians are under arrest on the charge of conducting propaganda among British troops in the occupied German territory or on a charge of a similar nature; if so, what are the names of these civilians; and whether they will have public trial?
  Mr. FORSTER: I have no knowledge of the matter referred to, but inquiries are being made and I will communicate with the hon. Member when I am in a position to do so.

  LIQUOR TRAFFIC.
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNEasked the Prime Minister if, when the new Commission is set up to deal with the liquor question, he will give favourable consideration to the workmen's clubs having representation on such a body?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The hon. and gallant Member's suggestion will be borne in mind.
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNE: How long will it be before the names of the Commissioners are announced?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I hope it will not be long, but I cannot name any time.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Will it necessitate a Bill?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Yes.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Prime Minister if he will state when the Output of Beer Restriction Amendment Act of 1916 will be repealed; what obstacle exists to the immediate revocation of the Intoxicating Liquor (Output and Delivery; Order; who are to be the members of the Liquor Commission; and what are to be the powers of this new body?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: As I have already stated, the Government have decided that all restrictions as to the quantity of beer which may be brewed should be removed, and that an increase in the gravity of beer should be permitted. The necessary steps are being taken as rapidly as possible with regard both to the Output of Beer Restriction Acts, and also the Intoxicating Liquor Output and Delivery Orders in their application to the quantity and quality of beer, but it is considered necessary to retain the provisions of the latter orders relating to spirits. With regard to the third and fourth parts of the question, I am unable to anticipate the terms of the proposed Bill, which has not yet been finally considered by His Majesty's Government.
  Sir J. D. REES: What is the object of creating an artificial whisky famine?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I thought I had given a satisfactory explanation. I am afraid I cannot add anything to what I have said.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction which prevails in the Eastern

  1809
  Midlands on account of the retention of the restrictions in respect of liquor imposed during war-time upon clubs?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Mr. James Hope): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Major Lane-Fox) on the 11th March, and the statement made by the Leader of the House on the 2nd July. The question of the removal of the restrictions from clubs is a matter for Parliament to deal with when the promised Bill is under discussion, and cannot be dealt with before.

  VATICAN (DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS).
  Mr. LYNNasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the fact that the French Government has refused to have diplomatic relations with the Vatican, either official or semi-official; and whether he is in a position to state when the British Envoy to the Vatican will be withdrawn?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: His Majesty's -Government understand that the attitude of the French Government towards this question is as described by the hon. Member. The question of continued British representation has not yet been decided.
  Mr. LYNN: When is it likely to be decided?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: It is under very careful consideration.

  EX-KAISER.
  Mr. LAMBERTasked the Prime Minister if assurance can be given that adequate precaution has been taken to prevent the ex-Kaiser from escaping to Germany, and there becoming the focus of disturbance the quelling of which might cost the lives of British soldiers?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I can only refer my right hon. Friend to the reply which I gave the hon. Member for South Hackney on 30th June.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Cannot I ask the Prime Minister, as I have addressed the ques-
  1810
  tion to him, whether precautions have been taken to prevent the ex-Kaiser going back to Germany and thereby causing the loss of more British lives than he has already caused?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I am sorry I did not listen to my hon. Friend's reply, but the steps we consider possible have been taken.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Are they adequate steps?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: If the right hon. Gentleman agrees with my view that we have taken every possible step, nothing more can be done.
  Mr. ALFRED T. DAVIESasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can make a further statement regarding the arrangement's for the trial in London of the ex-Kaiser; whether the five Allied jurists who are to form the Court will have the fullest powers in determining the penalty to be imposed upon him, including, if they think fit, the sentence of death; and whether a demand will at once be made to Holland to deliver him to the custody of the Allies?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I regret that I cannot add anything to the statement made by the Prime Minister on this subject on Thursday last.
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a deep feeling in the country, especially in London, against bringing the ex-Kaiser here at all?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Lord Wolmer.
  Mr. STANTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a strong feeling in the provinces—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Lord Wolmer.
  Mr. STANTON: May I inquire why I cannot put my supplementary question?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I had already called upon the Noble Lord to ask the next question [No. 69]. Does the hon. Member represent him in any way?

  AGRICULTURAL POLICY.
  Lieut.-Colonel SPENDER CLAYasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to delay forming a definite agricultural policy until such time as the

  1811
  Royal Commission on Agriculture has reported; whether the critical state of the industry has been brought to his notice; that fields which have been ploughed up as a war measure are now lying derelict; and that the future production of the land, and especially the crop for 1920, is jeopardised by the uncertainty which prevails?
  Captain FITZROYasked the Prime Minister whether he will give an early day for the discussion of the Motion on Agriculture appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Daventry Division of Northamptonshire?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The Government having agreed to the setting up of a Royal Commission on Agriculture which is instructed to report at an early date, must await the figures ascertained by the Inquiry before laying before the House their agricultural policy.
  Captain FITZROY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the setting up of this Commission was promised at least two months ago, that a large number of Members demand a discussion at an early date, and that the postponement of the Government's declaration of policy is doing the most serious injury to agricultural interest at present?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I am sorry there has been so much delay in the appointment of the Commission. I hope it will be made up partly by the rapidity with which they work. I do not think it would be possible to have a discussion at an early date, but if there is a general desire I shall certainly try to arrange it.
  Lieut.-Colonel CLAY: The growing of the 1920 crop will not await the report of the Commission.
  Mr. WHELER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the numerous demands of agricultural bodies that the Government's policy should be declared? Surely if he will grant us an opportunity of discussion it might do a great deal to do away with the unrest which is felt everywhere.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I have said if there is, as I think is the case, a desire for a discussion, I shall try to arrange it, but I have not found, as a matter of experience, that discussion allays agitation.
  Mr. R. GWYNNE: When will the Commission be appointed?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: It has been appointed.
  Mr. G. TERRELL: Will my right hon. Friend make representations to the Commission that it is desirable that its report should be speeded up?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Yes, that has been done in the most emphatic way.

  WOMEN IN INDUSTRY.
  Mr. JOHN DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to accept the Report of the Committee on Women in Industry for early application to Government Departments?
  Major HILLSasked the Prime Minister whether the Government have taken any steps to carry cut Recommendation 10 (14) of the War Cabinet Committee on women in industry and, as there recommended, have applied the principle of equal pay for equal work to their own establishments; and whether, also as there-recommended, in industries where employers and employed have agreed what relation women's wages shall bear to men's in any job the Government are insisting that that relation shall prevail in all Government contracts?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given on the 23rd May last to the hon. Member for the Workington Division by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Pending the consideration of the recommendations contained in the Report named in the question by the Whitley Councils for the Civil Service, I think that it would be premature to take action as suggested. I may point out that the adjustment of rates of wages of women in the various industries is a matter for discussion and negotiation between the employers and the representatives of the women concerned. As the hon. and gallant Member will be aware the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause, which is inserted in Government contracts, require all Government contractors to pay the rates of wages agreed upon between the employers and the workpeople's representatives in the trades concerned.
  Mr. A. SHAW: May we take it that the line of action with regard to the question of equal pay for equal work which was laid down by the special arbitration

  1813
  tribunal on women's wages during the War will not be in any way reversed by the Government during the interval?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The Government has no intention of reversing it, but there is great difficulty in deciding what precisely equal work is.

  GERMAN COLONIES.
  Mr. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether, as in the case of the draft covenant for the League of Nations, the draft mandates for the late German Colonies will be published before being finally approved by the League?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The substance of the mandates is already contained in Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations.

  PEACE TERMS.

    CORRESPONDENCE WITH GERMAN GOVERNMENT.
    Mr. DAVISONasked the Prime Minister whether he will publish in Blue Book form the complete correspondence with the German Government regarding the terms of Peace from the signing of the Armistice to the signing of the Treaty, including the German reply to terms offered in the original Treaty?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: This matter is under consideration by the Government, but no decision has yet been reached.

  AGRICULTURE (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Major NEWMANasked the Prime Minister whether he will give the names of the members of the Royal Commission on Agriculture who have been nominated to represent the middle interest or interest of the consumers as between the farmer and the agricultural labourers, both of whom are directly represented in equal number; and were any of the bodies representative of the consumer's interest consulted before the selection was made?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Of the twenty-two members of whom the Commission will be composed, the chairman, Sir William Peat, Sir W. J. Ashley, Mr. J. M. D.
  1814
  Henderson and Mr. E. H. Parker represent the general economic interests of the community. The answer to the latter part of the question is in the negative.
  Major NEWMAN: Is it a fact that three more members are to be appointed still, and will any of them represent the consumers?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I do not know who these three are. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will repeat the question.

  MEN AND WOMEN (LEGAL INEQUALITIES).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Prime Minister when the Government proposes to introduce its own Bill to remove all existing inequalities in the law relating to men and women?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I am not in a position to make any statement on this subject.

  COAL EXPORT TRADE.
  Mr. HOUSTONasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the price of coal at South Wales ports for export and bunkers ranges from 52s. 6d. to 60s. per ton, according to destination and flag; that the price of coal for export and bunkers at United States coal ports is about 25s. per ton; and can he state what steps are being taken to maintain our export trade in view of this difference in price?
  Sir A. GEDDES: I have been asked to answer this question. The coal prices at South Wales ports are, in all cases, open market prices, being above the scheduled minimum. I am informed that the prices quoted in the question are somewhat higher than the general level of prices now prevailing in South Wales. With regard to the price of American coal, I understand that the lowest price for delivery at European ports is over 120s. per ton, but I have no official information on this point. At present there is no indication of our failing to find a ready market for all the coal which we are in a position to export.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that I refer to the export trade in the question, and more particularly to the South American trade,

  1815
  and does not he also realise that the loss of our export trade means financial disaster?
  Mr. G. BALFOUR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British buyers are purchasing American coal?
  Sir A. GEDDES: Necessarily new supplies of coal must be found. If the coal output in this country is so low that we cannot supply the demands that continue to be made on us we must have resort to the world's supply of coal?
  An HON. MEMBER: How long are we to continue to supply France and Italy, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the very fact of these increasing supplies is keeping us out of other markets?

  MISSING SOLDIERS.
  Captain COOTEasked the Secretary for War whether he is aware of the hardship and suffering caused by the delay on the part of the War Office in notifying to parents the presumed fate of missing men; upon what system is death presumed and after what period of time, and whether he will cause an immediate report to be made in the two following cases so that the parents may be relieved from suspense and may claim effects and pension: Private A. R. Owen No. 325572, 1st Cambridge Regiment, missing 18th May, 1918; and Private H. O. Howlett, No. 43878, 11th Suffolks, missing 9th April, 1918?
  Mr. FORSTER: Presumption of death has now been approved in the two cases mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend, and the notifications will reach the next of kin accordingly in due course. I regret it has not been possible to settle these cases earlier, but the normal practice is to take these cases, of which there are a great number, in turn. No special periods are laid down before death is presumed.

  MILITARY BANDMASTERS.
  Captain BROWNasked the Secretary for War how many of those directors of music as yet appointed have worked their way up to this position from the ranks in the usual manner; and if it is in-tended in future to confine these apppointments in the Army to those who have risen from the ranks in the usual way?
  Mr. FORSTER: Directors of music are appointed by selection from among bandmasters who may be described as having worked their way up to this position from the ranks in the usual manner. I am not aware of any intention of changing the policy hitherto adopted.
  Captain BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is strong feeling amongst the bandmasters of the Army at the present time that outsiders are being appointed to these positions, and can he give a definite undertaking that these appointments will be confined to those who have risen from the ranks?
  Mr. FORSTER: I am not aware of any intention to change the policy. I inquired this morning and I was assured that that is the case.

  VOLUNTEERS (BOOTS).
  Major McKENZIE WOODasked the Secretary for War whether he is aware that Volunteers are being offered part- worn boots at 25s. per pair, and new boots at 26s. 6d. per pair; and whether he will consider the possibility of allowing boots worn by Volunteers to be retained by them, either without payment or at a lower price than 25s.?
  Mr. FORSTER: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Central Nottingham on Thursday last, to which I can add nothing.

  GOVERNMENT PROPERTY SALE, BUTTERWICK.
  Mr. ROYCEasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the sale of huts and equipment at Gun Range, Butterwick; whether he is aware that the sale was a private one and approximately £680 realised, and that this material was resold by the purchasers by public auction when a profit of nearly £2,000 was realised; and whether in future he will have all Government property of this description sold by public auction?
  Mr. FORSTER: I am informed that the huts in question were sold by tender in open competition, and that the accepted tender exceeded the valuation. I am not aware whether the facts as regards resale by the purchasers are as stated by my hon.

  1817
  Friend. I understand that this sale took place before the Disposal Board of the Ministry of Munitions came into existence. With the exception of a few such small sales, which were effected at an early period, all sales of surplus property of this description have been and are being conducted by the Disposal Board.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the strong suspicion in the country that there is a ring of buyers who are purchasing these huts at more than their value and keeping other purchasers out, and will he take steps to check this ring and to give preference to people who buy the huts for housing purposes?
  Mr. FORSTER: I should be glad to do anything to prevent undue inflation of price by whatever means it is caused. I will confer with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It is not merely a question of inflation of price, but a question of a ring.

  COAL SUPPLIES.

    INCREASED PRICE TO CONSUMERS.
    Mr. STURROCK(by Private Notice)asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now state if, in consequence of the estimated deficiency in the working of the coal industry, it is intended to raise the price of coal to the consumer, and, if so, what will be the effect upon our general export trade in manufactured goods and upon employment?
    Sir AUCKLAND GEDDES: The Government have decided that the price of coal to the consumer must be raised by 6s. per ton from the 16th of this month. It is hoped that this increase will meet the increased cost due to the payment of the Sankey wage, the forthcoming reduction in hours, and the diminished output per man shift. With regard to the last part of the question, I can only say that I am not in a position to give any estimate in detail, but it must be obvious to everyone that the increased cost of fuel will seriously hamper our manufacturers for export in their competition with foreign manufacturers, and must affect employment.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many pits are working short time at the present moment?
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this increase is put on it will close most of our manufacturing concerns in Lancashire; and, if that is the case, will he see that less coal is exported from this country, in order that our home industries may be kept going and be enabled to find employment for the unemployed men in this country?
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK:May I have an answer to my question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Noble Lord should give notice of his question.
    Sir A. GEDDES: I am sorry that I am not in a position to answer the question of the Noble Lord. It is quite obvious that I cannot carry the figures in my mind. In regard to the question as to what will be the effect of the rise in the price of coal, I can only say that I regard the probable effect as very serious; but it is no use imagining that we are getting coal cheaper by paying for it out of taxes. The coal is going to cost more, and it appears to the Government that it is much better that people should know it.
    Mr. T. RICHARDS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this increase in price to the consumer has been arrived at as a result of representations by the coal-owners, and whether the continually increasing profits of the coal-owners of the country have been taken into consideration by the Government in consenting to this increase?
    Sir A. GEDDES: My hon. Friend appears to be under a complete misapprehension. This increase in price is required to meet the cost of coal after the profits are limited, in accordance with the interim Report of the Sankey Commission, to 1s. 2d. per ton. This has nothing to do whatever with profits; it is a matter of cost.
    Mr. ADAMSON: May I ask if greater care has been exercised with regard to examining all the factors than was exercised in 1918, when the Government increased the cost by 2s. 6d. per ton, and later had to confess that there was no necessity to increase it by even 1d.?
    Mr. STANTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether two wrongs will

    1819
    make one right, and if the Government did something wrong before surely that would be no reason![HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] As a question—is there any reason, because the Government did something wrong before, why they should now pander even to the miners for the sake of votes, and allow them to exploit the whole British public, and, even in the best interests of the miners themselves, I would ask you to say that this should not be allowed?
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Is it not a fact that the deficiency on the industry at present is due largely to the decreased output, and is the Government taking any steps to remedy that? Is it not a fact that the miners of Great Britain are anxious to have an investigation into this question, and, before putting on this increase, will the right hon. Gentleman adjourn it for a thorough investigation as to the cause of the decreased output and whether it can be remedied?
    Mr. STANTON: On both sides?
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Certainly. A general investigation, and whether this House will have an opportunity of discussing the whole position?
    Sir A. GEDDES: Three points have been raised which I think it would be advisable to answer. The first point made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was that the 2s. 6d. additional when imposed was unnecessary. That statement was made at one time, but it was not the putting on of the 2s. 6d. that was incorrect; it was the statement that it was unnecessary that was incorrect. The 2s. 6d. was absolutely necessary to cover increased cost. As to the points raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Hartshorn) accounting for the increased cost of coal, the diminished output is one factor; the increased cost per ton of getting is another factor. It is impossible that the price of mineral hewing should remain the same when the wages of the men who hew that mineral are raised, at all events until such time as has been foreshadowed in the Sankey Report, when a compensating improvement can be made in the method of getting the coal, which is the only plan that has ever been suggested as one by which it would be possible to make a compensating improvement.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1915 when the Miners' Federation of Great Britain cooperated in an increased output we secured a. larger output per year per man than was obtained since the passing of the Eight Hours Act, and if that is done again would not it wipe out the whole deficiency that exists at present, and will the Government give an opportunity to the House of discussing the cause of this decline in output?
    Mr. STANTON: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that well known Bolshevists and anti-Britishers were allowed to sit upon the Sankey Commission, and will he remember that the whole country looks to a fair Commission, and while everybody is prepared to give fair play to the miners we do not think it right that they should be pandered to more than any other trade or industry.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to make a speech.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The Government quite recognise the seriousness of this matter, and realise also that it is natural, probably desirable, that there should be a discussion. We cannot give time specially for it, but there is a Supply day next week, and if it were suitable to take it on this ground, we should be very pleased.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Could not it be arranged some other time. Next week all the miners will be at the National Conference.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I only wish to do what the House desires. I am sure that a discussion is desirable, and I should have thought that it would not be well to postpone it; but if the general feeling is that it should not take place in the absence of the miners representatives—a view in which I am inclined to agree—I should be willing to have it the following week.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Am I correct in assuming that the price will not be put up until this discussion has taken place?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: No. I need not say that this is not a hasty decision. We have been considering the subject for a little while, and the hon. Member and the House will agree that it is utterly impossible that an industry like coal is to be subsidised out of the taxpayers' money.

    1821
    We have considered the matter very carefully, and have come to the conclusion that we have no alternative except to make the price assimilate to the cost of production.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Having regard to the fact that some of us think that there is an alternative, and to the importance of the industries of this country of not putting up the price, would the Leader of the House not agree that until after the discussion the price should not be put up, because I think that we can remedy it?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Surely my hon. Friend must feel that it is impossible. The Government have definitely come to the conclusion that the price must be raised to something which approaches and does not; exceed the cost of production. No amount of discussion can alter the fact that this addition is necessary in our opinion.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Quite apart from the immediate interests involved, and in view of the great public importance of this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not give an opportunity to-morrow, in the usual way, of moving the Adjournment on the Orders of the Day, so that this important question may be immediately dealt with? Failing that, of course there is another Parliamentary opportunity, subject to your leave, Mr. Speaker, at 8.15 to-night.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: We certainly do not want to put any obstacle in the way of discussion. We think it necessary. The Supply day is generally Thursday. We would be willing to agree to make Monday the Supply day, and take the other business intended for Thursday on Monday.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: If a Commission be appointed, will the right hon. Gentleman see that it is not composed of economic freaks, so that we may get at the facts?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I am afraid that no number of Commissions can alter the facts.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I think it is desirable that the question should be discussed as early as possible, and I would suggest to the Leader of the House that we should fix either Monday or Tuesday.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I have already stated that if my hon. Friends opposite agree to take this as a Supply day we will give it on Monday.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I was going to suggest to my hon. Friends that they accept the offer of the Leader of the House, namely, Monday.
    Mr. GIDEON MURRAY: I wish to ask whether the Government has fixed a date already for bringing the increase into force?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I stated in my answer that it was 16th July.

  STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
  Mr. JOHN WILLIAM WILSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Mr. T. P. O'Connor to act as Chairman of Standing Committee D (in respect of the National Health Insurance Bill, the Merchant Shipping (Wireless Telegraphy) Bill [Lords], and the Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolution reported from the Select Committee:
  "That, in the case of the Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
  Resolution agreed to.

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

    STANDING COMMITTEE C.
    Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C; Captain Bowyer; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland.
    Report to lie upon the Table.

  STANDING COMMITTEE C (SUPPLY).
  Mr. TURTON reported from Standing Committee C that they had agreed to the following Resolutions:
  STANDING COMMITTEE C (SUPPLY).

    CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES, 1919–20.—Class II.
    "1. That a sum, not exceeding £112,751, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1920, for the Salaries and Expenses of certain services transferred from the Mercantile Marine Fund, and other services connected with the Mercantile Marine, including Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions.
    2. That a sum, not exceeding £6, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1920, for meeting the Deficiency of Income from Fees, etc., for the requirements of the Board of Trade, under the Bankruptcy Act, 1914."
    Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (IRELAND) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 133.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 133.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 129.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Bridge of Allan Water Order Confirmation Bill,
Tees Conservancy Bill, without Amendment.
Chepstow Water Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for conferring further capital and other powers on the Dover Gas Company." [Dover Gas Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to alter the wards of the borough of East Ham; to increase the number of aldermen and councillors of the borough; to increase the number of guardians representing the
1824
parish of East Ham on the West Ham Poor Law Union; and for other purposes." [East Ham Corporation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the London Electric Railway Company to construct a new subway; and for other purposes." [London Electric Railway Bill [Lords.]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Anna Theodosia Hester Stoney, of 69, Adelaide Road, Dublin, in the county of Dublin, with Leigh Sadleir Stoney, a Lieutenant-Colonel (retired) in the 4th Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers, her now husband, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes." [Stoney's Divorce Bill [Lords.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Dover Gas Bill [Lords],
East Ham Corporation Bill [Lords],
London Electric Tramways Bill [Lords],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Stoney's Divorce Bill [Lords],
Read the first time; to be read a second time.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  FINANCE BILL
  Considered in Committee.—[PROGRESS, 8th July.]
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

  FINANCE BILL

    CLAUSE 7.—(Imperial Preference.)
    (1) With a view to conferring a preference in the case of Empire products, the duties of customs on the goods specified in the Second Schedule to this Act shall on and after the dates provided for in that Schedule be charged at the reduced rates (hereinafter referred to as "preferential rates") shown in the second column of that Schedule, where the goods are shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to have been consigned from and grown, produced or manufactured in the British Empire.
    For the purposes of this Section—
    "The British Empire" means any of His Majesty's Dominions outside Great Britain and Ireland, and any territories under His Majesty's protection, and includes India:
    Provided that where any territory becomes a territory under His Majesty's protection His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that that territory shall be included within the definition of the British Empire for the purposes of this Section, and this Section shall have effect accordingly.
    Goods shall not be deemed to have been manufactured in the British Empire as aforesaid unless such proportion of their value as is prescribed by regulations made by the Board of Trade is the result of labour within the British Empire.
    (2) Where the Board of Trade is satisfied as respects any class of goods to which the preferential rates apply that those articles are to a considerable extent manufactured in the British Empire from material which is not wholly grown or produced in the Empire, the Board may by Order direct that the preferential rate, shall be charged only in respect of such proportion of those goods as corresponds to the proportion of dutiable material used in their manufacture which is shown to have been grown or produced in the Empire.
    (3) Where goods are manufactured in a bonded factory in Great Britain or Ireland from dutiable material shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to have been consigned from and grown or produced in the British Empire, the duty on the manufactured goods shall, to the extent to which they are shown to have been manufactured out of such material, be charged at the preferential rate.
    (4) Any Order in Council made under this Section shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and, if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat next after the Order is laid before it, praying that the Order may be annulled,
    1860
    His Majesty in Council may annul the Order, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done there under.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: On a point of Order. I wish to point out that in. addition to the general Amendment of which I have given notice, I wish to move an Amendment exempting from the provisional preference the Import Duties which were imposed by the Act of 1915. I would like to ask whether I should put in an Amendment at the beginning of this Clause exempting the new Import Duties, or whether I should move it on the Schedule when it comes for discussion?
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has taken me by surprise. I have not the proposal in any form. But it cannot come here at the beginning of the Clause, but I think a way can be found.
    Captain BENN: That is to say, in spite of the general discussion on preference now we shall not be debarred from moving in Schedule 2 to amend the second column, line 27. I wish to ask whether the discussion now will make any Amendment on. Schedule 2 out of order?
    The CHAIRMAN: No, not an Amendment of that character. When we come to Schedule 2 I shall not think it my duty to permit a series of Amendments moving to omit one after the other similar articles, but I recognise the particular things referred to, which are those standing in a separate category from the other article. That will be quite a legitimate point to raise later.
    Captain BENN: I am obliged for the decision. I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words
    "with a view to conferring a preference in the case of Empire products, the duties of customs on the goods specified in."
    The object of this Amendment is to raise discussion on the general question of Imperial Preference, and, speaking for myself, and I am sure for many who are associated with me, we wish to make it perfectly clear that we appreciate quite as much as those who proposed this preferential treatment the gallant sacrifices which the Colonies have made in this War, and the devotion with which they regard us, and we regard them. The point we are discussing is not whether we are Imperialists in that sense or not, but whether financial treatment of the kind proposed

    1861
    by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, in effect, the best means of securing the solidity and building up of the Empire. If the Committee will look at the Second Schedule in which the articles on which preference is to be given are detailed, and will examine the Board of Trade Returns showing the trade which we are doing with the various Colonies, they will observe that there is a fatal defect in the scheme put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is this: that the financial advantage by which it is proposed to consolidate the Empire is so unequally distributed that a great part of it does not go to the Colonies at all—I am referring particularly to the preference on tea, which so far as it is enjoyed, will be enjoyed by shareholders in this country, and that in respect of other preferences, more substantially such as sugar and other things, they do not go to the Colonies which, if we agreed with the proposal, we should most desire them to go to. The basis which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been driven to adopt for his scheme of preference is a basis which, so far from achieving what they allege, will only cause irritation and annoyance. We know perfectly well that, in view of the settled fiscal policy of this country, the Colonies accepted with perfect goodwill our refusal to make a preferential arrangement in their favour. I think it was Sir Robert Borden who said, after one of the Debates in the Imperial Conference, that our position being this, it could not be a cause of offence to any of the Colonies that we did not make special arrangements in their favour.
    The situation has changed, and it is proposed in this Bill to jettison the ground on which we stood before. It is proposed to give up the policy of perfect freedom of trade with all parts of the world and to admit, in the words which I am proposing to leave out, that it is desirable that we should give a preference to the constituent parts of the Empire. Once we do that, and once that becomes a settled part of the policy of this country, it is inevitable that the various Colonies should begin to ask themselves, "That being so, what am I getting out of it?" and, secondly, the manufacturers will ask, "What advantage does it confer on them?" Anyone who has followed the proceedings of the Committee on Restriction of Imports must have seen what a storm of interest arises immediately the Government propose to foster this or to check that particular in-
    1862
    dustry. So the first objection to the words of the Clause which set up the principle of Imperial Preference is this—that they will set up irritation in the Colonies instead of a feeling of gratitude, because certain Colonies, such as New Zealand, for example, derive no benefit at all; others, such as Australia, may, in some small industries, derive advantage, but they derive no benefit in their most important industries, which are the supply of raw materials. We have already had some illustrations by now, even in this House—some opportunity of judging what sort of annoyance and irritation will be set up between this country and the Colonies by attempting anything of this kind. An hon. Member asked the Under-Secretary to the Colonies the other day whether he would do something to prevent South Africa buying locomotives in the United States—that is to say, inasmuch as we are conferring financial benefit on some industries in South Africa, this House was proposing to suggest that the South Africans wore doing wrong in exercising perfect freedom in the purchase of their essential commodities in the cheapest market. So we find ourselves in the position that we have abandoned the only good argument, the only sound ground for having perfect peace and content as regards fiscal arrangements between the different parts of the Empire. Some hon. Gentlemen will ask, in reply to this: "Should we not treat our brothers better than we treat strangers?" I would call their attention to the fact that more family disturbances are caused by wills and financial arrangements in families than by any other cause. The real tics which do bind the Empire together are not preferences at all, and certainly not preferences founded on the adventitious and fantastic Schedule which has been introduced in this Bill.
    We know, of course, that support for this proposal is forthcoming from all sides. In the first place, there is the right hon. Gentleman himself, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who knows and says that if his words are inserted he has achieved the first milestone in the great course which he intends to take. He will have got this House to decide that the thing is desirable in itself, and it will only be a matter later of developing the full policy. The day which his distinguished father looked for has come. That is an intelligible policy—a policy which has many adherents—but it is not a policy which is really carried out fairly in the Bill. Hon.

    1863
    Gentlemen who support that policy should move to amend the Schedule, or to alter the preferences in some way, so as to give an appearance of fairness to the distribution of favours. On the other hand, we have a number of hon. Members supporting the preference because, for various good reasons, they, at the time of the General Election, gave certain pledges, and they feel bound to carry them out by supporting a preference on existing duties. They are told that the Government policy will be unfolded to them later in the year, and, no doubt with perfect good faith, they believe that, even if they support this Clause with its provision of preference, they are not going in any way to compromise their position as free traders. It is perfectly obvious that, if we decide in Clause 7 that we will give a preference to the Colonies, whatever the President of the Board of Trade may wish to say, or whatever policy may be in the "locked box," certain parts of it will be determined in advance by the decision of this House. Therefore, it will be quite impossible, if that Clause becomes the law of the land, whatever the Government may wish, to go back on the policy of Preference, and to that extent the Liberal free traders who are supporting the Bill will find themselves hopelessly and irrevocably compromised. Somebody is going to be disappointed—I do not want to use the word "deceived." it is either the tariff reformers who see in this Bill a beginning of the realisation of their dream, or it is the Liberal free traders who see in the Bill nothing but a minor concession of no importance which cannot possibly lead to the adoption of a policy to which they are opposed. It is that uncertainty as to what is really going to happen that makes people wonder how far there can be any sincerity in any form of coalition.
    Supposing that this Clause is passed, we shall find that under it—indeed that is the Government's case—new industries will be created. People, taking advantage of the preferential rate which this Clause allows, will embark upon new undertakings, sink their capital in them, find employment for people, and when that has happened they will rightly and naturally look to the Government and clamorously ask that the protection under which they have been able to establish their trade should not be withdrawn. We shall have many demands for new preferences, and we shall not be able to reduce the old preferences because we
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    shall be told that, on the faith of the Government's policy, people have sunk their money in starting new industries. We have not had to wait very long for further demands. Mr. Hughes, who, I believe, has now finally departed for Australia, in one of his farewell speeches, said:
    "Nothing is more certain that that, unless a definite policy is adopted that will give British manufacturers a preference in the home markets, and to the Oversea Dominions a larger market within the Empire for their raw material, not only will Imperial trade suffer, but the Empire will tend to disintegrate."
    An hon. and gallant Gentleman says "Hear, hear." That is the protectionist's case. If he is right in saying, "Hear, hear," and in believing in that policy, then the Liberal free traders must be wrong in supporting the policy as their outward concession to the principle of coalition. Here you have a demand, not for these tiny and fantastic preferences, because they are given on duties imposed for totally different purposes, but a demand for a substantial preference on things with which they do supply this country—namely, raw material and articles of food. Otherwise, the scheme of Preference, far from being an advantage, will be merely fantastic and irritable. We come to this point, which is really the chief fiscal objection to the principle of Preference. You cannot give a preference to the Colonies unless you accompany it by a full-blooded tariff. You cannot give a preference unless it is a preference over somebody else, and that somebody else has got to be a foreigner. Therefore, if we adopt the principle of Preference, even in this small matter, we shall be driven to a substantial preference in those articles with which the Colonies really supply us, and in order to give that substantial preference we shall be driven to build a tariff wall in this country against foreign industries. That has been perfectly clearly stated by the Leader of the House, who said:
    "It is impossible to tax one manufactured article without immediately raising an agitation for the taxation of all manufactured articles. Preference in trade and the taxation of foreign manufactured articles are part of one idea. The adoption of the one will inevitably lead to the adoption of the other."
    It therefore behoves all free traders to resist the beginning of the evil in this Clause, because, if we once allow it, we are logically committed to the full-blooded policy of a tariff. We believe that the sort of policy that is represented by Tariff Re-

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    form is absolutely hostile to the real true world spirit of to-day. It is a real division of the opinions of mankind. We have some people—we often hear them in this House—who detest the idea of a foreigner, and who, immediately they hear of a foreigner, want to persecute him, to inspect him, or to drive him out. They loathe the idea of trading with a foreigner. We do not think that at all. We believe in a much wider community of the world than that. We believe that the world is yearning for peace and is willing to see a wider conception than a purely national and narrow conception, and we believe that for our country, which has always been in the van of liberty and universal brotherhood, to be the first country to sot up barriers after having been a Free Trade country—well, I cannot express myself— would be altogether retrograde and hostile to the thing which we desire to be done. President Wilson, in his fourteen points which were the basis of the settlement of the War, laid it down very clearly that we should destroy and not set up economic barriers. We are setting up economic barriers. I am very sorry that the First Commissioner of Works does not attend the Debates on Preference more frequently. He was a very able exponent of the Free Trade case, and now he is a very able exponent of the opposite case. He said, "If you take down a duty between us and the Colones, you thereby promote Free Trade." What he and what my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sir J. Remnant) overlooks is that, if you promise a man a preference it means that you undertake to keep on a higher duty against someone else. Therefore, instead of it being a step in the direction of Free Trade to establish by law a system of Preference, it is really a promise to all and sundry that you will keep on a system of tariffs.
    Colonel Sir J. REMNANT: I understood the hon. and gallant Member to be referring to what President Wilson advocated. I only want to ask if he is doing what the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes?
    Captain BENN: I am sorry I misinterpreted my hon. and gallant Friend's desire. I hope that the Government Whips or someone else will use their influence to induce the First Commissioner of Works to attend these Debates. I was saying that Point 3 of President Wilson's Fourteen Points is:
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    "The removal so far as possible of all economic barriers and the establishment of equality of trade conditions amongst all the nations signing the Peace."
    Sir J. REMNANT: I asked the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether the United States were doing that?
    Captain BENN: I am not aware that the United States of America are going in the opposite direction. We are doing that. This country was a Free Trade country. Immediately Peace is signed, instead of taking any notice of Point 3, we begin to go in the opposite direction. That is absolutely hostile to the spirit of the only thing that will save the world from drifting again into the same disasters from which we have just emerged. Wars may often start in tariff squabbles. Only in the last Debate the Chancellor of Exchequer uttered words of warning to one of our Allies. We want to see tariff barriers abolished and universal goodwill taking the place of friction and hatred. We see the Government, instead of abolishing armies conscripting them, instead of abolishing tariff barriers, constructing them. We say, inasmuch as this policy involves that, it is a policy which is hostile to the only spirit which will save the world from the disasters through which we have just come.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: During the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend I noticed that the usually pleasant countenance of the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Lieut.-Colonel Amery) was suffused with smiles. He seemed to get great delight from the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend. I hope he will get even more delight from my speech, because I am going to address myself on this the first opportunity I have had, particularly to the speech that he made on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, when he went into transports, about the heights of Abraham, Wolfe, the Empire, and so on. Before the War I was in favour of Preference. In any case I am not a hide-bound free trader or a hidebound protectionist. I believe in what is best for the country in the circumstances of the moment. We are told that we on these benches have learned nothing from the War. I have learned one tiling from the War, and it is that at the present moment this preferential idea would be ruinous to humanity. Let me first of all deal with the very subtle arguments and appeals to the higher feelings of the in-

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    habitants of this Empire which were made by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. He spoke about the pride of Empire, and he particularly mentioned Wolfe and the heights of Abraham. There is a new spirit in mankind to-day, and I wish to make quite clear what is this spirit. I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman of a picturesque and beautiful circumstance which happened during that expedition of Wolfe up the St. Lawrence River. Does he remember when General Wolfe, one of the ornaments of our race, was proceeding up that river, that he read to his officers and staff "Gray's Elegy in a Country Churchyard," and that he said:
    "Gentlemen, I would rather have written that poem than take Quebec."
    Among the men of our race in whom the spirit of patriotism burns most brightly the love of their own homeland, their own little country village, and their own little back street in a slum is passionate, and to them all this flamboyant talk of blood and shining armour, which is practically what it comes to, and of standing foursquare to the world is most repugnant and repellant, and I will explain why.
    During this War we fought and bled and mixed the best of our blood with that of our French Allies. To us an honest Frenchman is as dear as any other man in the world, second to our own kinsmen. We know that General Wolfe died the death of a hero on the Plains of Abraham. We also remember that a very gallant French General, M. de Montcalm, was killed in the same battle. After all these years we can afford to look upon those two as brothers-in-arms, though they died fighting on opposite sides, and I have myself had the honour of saluting the French cruiser "Montcalm," named after that gallant officer. A new spirit in the world has resulted from all this blood and agony. We do not want to be told that we are standing away from the rest of the world in our self-contained Empire with our tariff system. Bismarck, after 1870, said he would bind the German Empire by blood and iron. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in almost identical words, quoted his illustrious father as saying that our Empire would have to be bound by blood and iron. Before 1870 the German people had many virtues. They were great musicians, great philosophers, great poets. The names of Goethe and Schiller will be respected, surely, even
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    by the most blatant super-patriots in this House. The very book of fairy tales that we read in our nurseries was written by a German. They were, above all, the most home-loving nation possible, quiet-living, musical, renowned throughout the world. What has happened now? The lust, the spirit of victory, went to their heads. They won an all too easy victory over France, and they came to the conclusion that they were the lords of the world. There was no people like them. "Deutschland űber alles!" Exactly the same spirit is being preached now. This is the insidious beginning. My hon. and gallant Friend and his distinguished colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer say it is the start. They are going to bind our Empire by blood and iron and then by trade tariffs. It is obsolete, out of date, dead, and they will find it so, and quite quickly. They may think at the present moment that this is the great hour, "der Tag." But all it will lead to will be that demands will be made, other manufacturers will want this preference, and we shall be on the slippery slope which will lead to permanent full-blooded tariffs. The hon. and gallant Member for Rotherham (Major Kelley) told us yesterday precisely what it was, and the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) says that is what they are after. That will lead to a further war, and not to the new brotherhood, the new world, which we mean to get out of the League of Nations. The people who fought—not in Staff motor cars, but in small ships at sea and in muddy trenches—are determined that the War shall not have been waged in vain and that we are not going to have this blood-and-iron Empire, but that we are going to try and realise the fraternity of men—and we mean to do it. My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), when he made his delightful speech in the Budget Debate, said that the General Election had given them a distinct mandate for introducing tariffs. I do not believe it turned 100,000 votes in the whole country. It was not the question at the time of the election. [An HON. Member: "It was a very important one!"] I do not believe it turned 100,000 votes. The question that, I am afraid, swayed the supporters of the Coalition were "Make Germany pay" and "Hang the Kaiser!" The opponents of the Coalition were probably elected on anti-militarist issues. They were distressed over the Russian policy and dig-

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    trusted the Government as regards Conscription. I think that is what brought votes, and also the new democratic feeling amongst the people. They did not believe that the Coalition Government would be the best to carry it out. I do not think tariffs brought more than 100,000 votes in the country. And now to bring in this Preference, which is the beginning, as has been admitted again and again by most distinguished exponents and opponents of tariffs, and is admitted in the Budget—to bring this in now is a breach of faith to the country, and it ought not to be done unless the country is tested on the question. We are told that there is a demand from the Colonies for Preference. I do not believe it. During the War I had opportunities of talking to a good many Colonial soldiers and sailors. Having nothing better to do, we talked politics, and their politics were very different from this. There was nothing about Preference or tariffs. They talked of the future organisation of the world, of the founding of a commonwealth of all people. That is the talk of the fighting men of the Colonies. They spoke in admiration of the free institutions in England, of their natural love for their homeland, and how they hoped England would remain as she was, and would not be spoiled by being too commercialised. Not once did I hear any demand for Preference. Who are the people demanding it? Tea merchants—manufacturers. In connection with India—one of the brightest jewels in the British Crown—we are told that this twopenny Preference on tea will bind India closer to the British Empire. In all the agitations by Indians in this country, have they ever mentioned any desire of this sort? Is it suggested for a moment that the unrest in India will be in any way allayed by a Preference on Ceylon and Indian tea? The thing is not worth discussing. There is no question that it was simply a sign and a symbol. It is not going to bind anything closer to us. Our message as to this Preference on tea of 2d. a pound which is going to work such wonders in India comes at the same time, I hope, as the passing of the Montagu-Chelmsford Act, and that, when it is carried out, will bind India infinitely closer to us. I do not wish to digress, but if the Rowlatt Acts had been dropped when they might have been, it would have had a million times the effect of this Preference, of which only about one in ten thousand in India will have any know-
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    ledge at all. This Preference is the beginning of the full-blooded system of Protection which is wanted, I am afraid, by the majority in this House, and they mean to take advantage of the peculiar position in which they are as the result of an extraordinary General Election. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer admits it quite clearly, and for that very reason I mean to resist it, as do my friends here. I repeat that before the War I was for Preference; the arguments seemed overwhelming. But there is now no need to bind our Colonies and Dominions closer to us after what has come and gone in the last four and a half years. Anything of that sort is an insult to the patriotism of the men of this race, and to the men of India, after the loyal way in which they behaved in spite of a great deal of temptation and provocation. This, I am afraid, if persisted in, will mean the wrecking of the whole spirit that we have just arrived at as the result of the War. We do not want a defiant, fully armed Empire. We do not want this shining armour spirit at the present moment. We want to encourage other nations to open their doors and get rid of their tariffs. In particular, we hope that one result of the gratitude of France to us will be that trade relations will be easier for our merchants and manufacturers in her rich Colonies. It is not merely a mailer of the temporary triumph of the memory of the right hon. Gentleman's distinguished father. That does not matter at all. It is the question, Are we going to get a new spirit among the nations or are we going on in the same way as the German Empire went? The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken of the thankfulness he feels at being at least able to set one stone upon another in the wall which his illustrious father hoped to build. His illustrious father has a niche in history, and will always have it. If the right hon. Gentleman at this present moment, when he has the ball at his feet, would drop this idea, he would get an even greater niche, and would mark himself down as even a greater man than his illustrious father
    Mr. WILSON-FOX: My hon. and gallant Friend opposite has, quite rightly, I think, emphasised the fact that measures of this description are not the only bond which is required to knit the Empire together. That is common ground for everybody. But we want every possible bond

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    we can get to knit the Empire together, and as one who has been associated for many years with the movement for Imperial Preference—and Imperial Preference both ways, that is to say, from the Colonies to Great Britain and from this country to the Colonies—I feel that I cannot allow this occasion to pass without putting forward some, perhaps, more practical views than those which my hon. and gallant Friend has addressed to us. He has assumed that there is no practical advantage to be gained by a policy of Imperial Preference, and he has attempted to prove his case by a reference to the Tea Duty. So far as it goes, that may possibly be. The tea preference may possibly not be one of the strongest cases that can be found in favour of Imperial Preference. But it does not follow that other cases cannot be adduced, and I hope to show the House that, taking the question on broader lines, there are very practical advantages to be gained, and that we should be most unwise, both in the interests of our Empire overseas and of our trade and manufactures at home, not to avail ourselves of them. For many years I had the opportunity of associating with that great Imperial statesman, Cecil Rhodes, who made the linking up of the Empire in the closest possible manner the great object of his life's work. For many years—even before my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's illustrious father moved in this matter—he pressed this policy of Imperial Preference upon the attention both of Colonial statesmen and of the Imperial Government; and I remember well that, when he was settling the Constitution, of Rhodesia, he had a great tight with the Imperial authorities at home to allow him to insert in the Constitution of that country, in 1898, a Clause relating to the duties to be imposed. I have the exact words here
    "That the Customs duties to be levied on any articles produced or manufactured in any part of Her Majesty's Dominions or any British Protectorate imported to Southern Rhodesia, should exceed in amount the duties levied on such articles according to the tariff in force in the South African Customs Union."
    The general effect of that Clause was that it was henceforth impossible to levy in Rhodesia Customs Duty on these articles at a higher rate than what was on the average about 12½ per cent. ad valorem. That Clause remains in the constitution of Southern Rhodesia to this day, and it was copied in Orders in Council which later
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    on brought about the Constitution of Northern Rhodesia, an equally large area, and it is in force to-day. It may be said that after all that was not very much. About two years ago, in the late Parliament, I ventured to give an illustration of the working of that Clause from my own experience. I was at that time the director of a company here in London which was carrying on an extensive mining business in Rhodesia. There arose the question of placing an order for about £50,000 worth of machinery, a more considerable sum in those days than it is now. The Board took the ordinary course. They referred the question to their consulting engineers for advice. Having got the specification they threw the tenders-open to the world, and then asked the engineers to report upon the tenders. The engineers came to the Board and said. "We have been through all these, and really the choice lies between two. It is immaterial to us which you accept." The one was from an American and the other from a British firm. On the face of the tenders the lowest was that of the American firm, but it was pointed out that owing to the effect of this Clause in the Rhodesian Constitution the balance was turned to the extent of £300 to the advantage of the British firm, and they got the contract. That is a very simple instance of how quite a small advantage does affect trade to a very considerable extent. I should like to point out that in these days of large production and greater volume of trade, and where the large profits are made on the big turnover, a small advantage may have the effect of diverting or creating a very large volume of trade.
    I cannot see, for the life of me, how my hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Captain Benn) and other people who oppose Imperial Preference can resist the logic of such facts. I cannot see that it will create any ill-will in the Empire and I do not see why it should arouse any ill-will among foreign nations. We have been repeatedly told that we are imperilling the League of Nations if we change our attitude in regard to tariffs, and that we shall be arousing hostility if we take measures in the interest of our own Empire. I can never see why, if that argument is true, it is not equally true of tariffs imposed for preference given by the great country across the Atlantic, America. It does not arouse any ill-will here if she changes her tariff. If we choose to do what we think right, are

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    we to be told that we are imperilling the peace of the world? I cannot follow that argument. The policy of Imperial Preference is really on a large scale an illustration of the sort of policy that in France allows the octroi. If it is defensible as a means of raising revenue or otherwise to allow a town to charge duty on goods entering its domain, I see no reason why, in the case of the Empire, tariffs which are paid on the entry of goods should be wrong.
    Captain BENN: Would the hon. Gentleman favour the octroi in this country?
    Mr. WILSON-FOX: I do not think that is the issue. If for our own convenience, and that of other portions of the Empire, tariffs seem to us to be advisable, that is our own domestic concern, and if in the fixing of those tariffs differences are permitted, that again is our own domestic concern with which no one but ourselves has anything to do, and which ought not to arouse any controversy or ill-will in any territory outside the Empire. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the courageous attitude he has taken in this great juncture in our Imperial affairs. I welcome it on every possible ground. I am delighted that the son of a great statesman, who did so much for the cause of the Empire, should have had an opportunity of contributing his part to the building up of the great edifice which his father commenced.
    Mr. G. MURRAY: I intervene in this Debate because I have had a great deal to do with this question of Imperial Preference. First of all, I should like to join issue with the hon. and gallant Member for Hull when he stated that the Government had committed a breach of faith in bringing Imperial Preference into this Budget. In doing so he impugned the good faith of practically all the Coalition Members who were returned to this House. I do not know whether he intended to do that, but I should like to say for myself that I do not think a single day or evening passed during the General Election in which I did not bring up this subject of Imperial Preference, in which I did not discuss the question of the Trade Industries Board, and in which I did not raise the whole issue of the dumping that went on before the War. Not only that but in the joint manifesto which was issued by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House it was very definitely stated that they were committed to this prin-
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    ciple of Imperial Preference!, to anti-dumping, and the Trade Industries Board. I am at a loss, therefore, to understand how the hon. Member has the effrontery to charge this Government and the members of the Coalition with a breach of faith.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I say it was not a vital issue at the election.
    Mr. G. MURRAY: The hon. and gallant Member did say a breach had been committed. It is true he subsequently informed the House— I do not know from where he got the knowledge—that the election had not been taken on this question in any way, and that there were only 100,000 who voted for it in the election. I listened to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith Burghs, who in the course of his very eloquent remarks informed us that our policy before the War was not reprehensible because it; was a guarantee of the peace of the world. What was the effect of our policy before the War? Did it prevent the greatest war that has ever taken place?
    Captain BENN: It might have done so.
    Mr. G. MURRAY: The hon. Member says it might have done so. We are dealing now with facts, not with possibilities. We know that the War did take place in spite of the fact that we had Free Trade, and what are described as the blessings of Free Trade.
    Captain BENN: Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that if we had been a Protectionist country we should not have had the War?
    5.0 P.M
    Mr. MURRAY: I do not suggest that we should not have had the War, but I do suggest that the argument of my hon. and gallant Friend is founded on wrong promises. I have listened not only in this Debate but in others to various arguments which have been adduced as to the effect that the institution of Imperial Preference would have upon foreign countries. In 1912 there was set up a reciprocity agreement between Canada and the West Indies, in which I am proud to say I took a considerable part. One of the main arguments advanced against that agreement was that the United States would take exception to it, that the United States would take offensive action, that this offensive action would affect our trade in the West Indies, and that the West Indies would suffer tremendously. A certain number of merchants and business

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    people in the West Indies believed in that argument. Their trade had for half a century or a century been carried on with the United States, and, being naturally of a conservative nature, they did not like the idea of having suddenly to transfer that trade from the United States to Canada. Notwithstanding these arguments, the West Indies and Canada decided to go ahead, and the United States carried out none of their threats. How could they do so? On the other hand, quite a number of agents who were carrying on trade in New York with the West Indies transferred their agencies or set up fresh agencies in Canada, and so fresh British trade was created. Why was it that the United States was unable to take any aggressive action? It was for the simple reason that they had got exactly the same principles themselves. Puerto Rico is in the United States Customs Union, they give a Preference of 20 per cent. to Cuba, and in Hawaii they give a Preference. They are within the family circle, and so it was impossible from the point of view of a great nation for the United States to take any aggressive action, because we in two parts of our Empire came to an agreement. What about France in this connection? What docs Franco do to her Colonies in this way? Does not France give enormous Preference to Martinique, to Guadeloupe, to Senegambia, and such a Preference that we are unable to trade there in any of the articles in which they actually give Preference? [An HON. MEMBER: "We should go to war with them!"] Yes, we should go to war with them, according to the arguments of the hon. Members opposite. I admit that the hon. Members opposite take a very broad view and a very wide vision of this matter, but they have got to look at the question from the point of view of facts and of human nature, and I submit that if you can get the United States to deal with her Dependencies and Possessions in the way that the hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to deal as between the United Kingdom and our Dominions and Colonies, and if you can get France to do the same, and Holland, and Italy, then, I say, you will have made out an extraordinarily good case, and I am not sure that I would not follow you; but you cannot. You have been trying for years and centuries—
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: You have learned nothing by the War.
    Mr. MURRAY: My hon. and gallant Friend told us that at the beginning of the War he was in favour of Imperial Preference. I am a great admirer of that service to which he has belonged. I know that service very well, and I have come across them in many parts of the world. I have lived in Australia and in South Africa. I have travelled in Canada, and I know the points which my hon. and gallant Friend has discussed this afternoon, and I was surprised to hear him say that he had not come across any Dominion or Colonial soldiers who had any belief in this question of Imperial Preference. That has not been my experience. My experience has been that in the Colonies and Dominions there are thousands of men and women who desire these closer trade links with the Mother Country; but they have not taken up a selfish attitude, and said, "You give us this or that," but they have invariably said, "What we do desire is some form of Imperial Preference. It does not matter how little it is, but give us something to show that you will meet the advances which we have made in the Preferences which we have already given to you." That is the view that I have formed from my associations with these places, and I was surprised, I might almost say pained, to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman talking as he did, because I think he must have forgotten, in the course of the last four years, or just before he became Member for Hull, all his experiences in the Dominions and Colonies, for I assume he travelled there in His Majesty's ships. I only hope that the atmosphere that has been and will be created by this Debate will revive some of the memories in his mind or some of the memories of his more youthful days.
    I would like to mention the question of sugar. In our West Indian Colonies sugar is the most vital problem they have to deal with. For years, certainly for the last forty or fifty years, the sugar estates have languished because of the prices they were able to obtain for that article. For years they have asked the Mother Country to give them a Preference in sugar, in order that they might secure a permanent market and revive that industry. I, for one, on those grounds alone, welcomed most cordially the proposals in the Budget of my right hon. Friend, because I know this perfectly definitely, after a residence of eight years in the West Indian Colonies, that if that

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    Imperial Preference is not granted there is nothing left for it but for the West Indian Colonies to turn their eyes towards the United States, who would be perfectly willing to grant that preference. That is the position is the West Indian Colonies. It applies also to Mauritius, it applies in a lesser degree to Nigeria, and those other Protectorates for which we have responsibility, and I hope that the supporters of the Government, all the Liberal Coalitionists as well as the Unionist Coalitionists, will go into the right Lobby every time-that is into the Government Lobby on this occasion. I do not say I have not been in the other Lobby, but on this occasion the Government Lobby is the right Lobby. I hope they will support Imperial Preference, because I believe that by this means the different parts of the Empire will be drawn closer together, and that it is only in that way that we will be able to maintain and to consolidate the Empire for which so much blood and so much treasure have been expended during the last four years.
    Sir FREDERICK YOUNG: I think it is just as well that we are putting on the Statute Book something which shows this House is taking an interest in Imperial affairs, and in my view the proposals of the Government on this occasion are welworthy of general support irrespective of party or pre-war beliefs. I am surprised to think that anybody in the course of this War has not learned at least to appreciate more than in the past the necessity of looking upon the British Empire as a household, each member wherever he exists having an interest in Its welfare. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy) said he had on occasion talked politics with Colonials, but I venture to say that I think I know who did most of the talking. I happen to have had some acquaintance with Colonials, and during the War I was Agent-General for one of the States of Australia, and I suppose I met at least a hundred Colonials to every one that the hon. and gallant Member could have met, and very naturally we perhaps talked more intimately of affairs as between the Mother Country and the self-governing Colonies, and if we were to approach the question of Imperial affairs, I think I am right in saying that the usual comment coming to me from visiting Colonial soldiers was, "I wonder what the old women in this
    1878
    country will do after the War: Will they do the same as they did before the War, or will they learn something and appreciate what the Empire means, and have something to live for, to work for, and. if necessary, to fight for?" It is said by the same hon. and gallant Gentleman that this really was not asked for by the people of the Dominions. I presume that we believe in Parliamentary institutions —sometimes I doubt it, but we will assume that— and, if so, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman must take notice of the fact that representatives of all the self-governing Dominions and India have made the request formally to the British Government to establish Imperial Preference. It must be assumed that those gentlemen who attended the Imperial Conferences were speaking on behalf of, and knew the wishes of, the people whom they represented, and this House can only, I think, if they wish to delve into that aspect of the question, accept the representations which have come at Conference after Conference from all the Dominions of this Empire. Therefore, I think it is unnecessary to argue at all the point as to whether or not Imperial Preference has, as a matter of fact, been asked for.
    The practical results from the proposals in this Bill may not be very great, but, none the less, it is a valuable step, and it does an infinite amount of good in establishing a true Imperial atmosphere. This Imperial Preference, once it is accepted in even the slightest form, extends much beyond the mere lettering and figures in this Schedule. [Cheers.] Hon. Members who cheer will not cheer in a moment when they appreciate what I mean. I have had experience in Australian Governments as a member, and I know that it was the policy of Australia in its tariff system to give a preference to British manufactures. The Australian Governments are by far the greatest purchasers and importers of British goods in Australia, because State activity there is so extensive, and it was the invariable practice, in conformity with this atmosphere which I have talked about, to consider most favourably British tenders, even beyond the statutory preference given. Where the margin, as between a British and a foreign tender, has been rather in favour of the foreign tender, but not a very great amount, the Australian Government, for instance—and I think this applies to other self-governing Dominions —have not hesitated to jump that margin,

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    in addition to the statutory preference, and that, I am sure, has been all bene- to the manufacturing industry in this country, and was well worthy of the action of the Dominion Governments in question.
    It is said that this Imperial policy is hostile to the world spirit of to-day. To take that vision one escapes all the facts and looks beyond into the rainbow in the clouds. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] Any hon. Member who will say "Hear, hear!" to the proposition of missing all facts seems to me to be an impractical politician. I think this world spirit to-day as regards tariffs, as regards the policy of looking after oneself, is evidenced by the fact that we are practically the only country in the world which carries on what is supposed to be Free Trade. The world spirit, if it is anything at all, is to look after one's home market and to develop that, and as to this being in conflict with the world spirit requiring a greater brotherhood, I do not think there is the slightest evidence before us throughout the War, and since the War, to indicate that any other country is proposing to take a step away from some form of Protection or tariff system. Personally, I am not a very great protectionist, as perhaps some other Members are. None the less, if I were a free trader out-and-out, I think I should have to recognise the fact that the world spirit lies in the other direction. It is said that we must have Free Trade to guarantee the peace of this world. If that is so, I fail to see why this country should remain the sole guarantor of the peace of the world. That is really what it means. It is said that we should go on giving the rest of the world an opportunity of coming to our views. Surely the world has had the example before it long enough, and I presume that it has watched the example, and apparently it does not think that our example is one which is beneficial to the development of any given community or country.
    Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman who introduced the Amendment complained that the proposals of the Government conflicted with President Wilson's Fourteen Points. I think we profit a great deal in this country from the fact that we live under an unwritten Constitution, and I should be sorry to add to it President Wilson's Fourteen Points. If
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    we were to accept the article against the establishment of economic barriers in its full sense, I think President Wilson would be committing something of a fraud on this country, because he would be preventing us from doing something that already exists in America, and apparently there is no obligation on his part to remove the economic barrier established in America. That country is to continue under what it thinks a beneficent system, while we, under the Fourteen Points, arc never to be allowed to follow its example. It seems to me to be an extraordinary suggestion, and I think it is completely knocked over by the fact that President Wilson had himself hurriedly to explain to the United States what he meant by that particular article of the Fourteen Points, and to make it perfectly clear that it necessitated nothing in the direction of altering the tariff system of that country. If that is so, there is nothing in the Fourteen Points which necessitates our remaining rigidly tied to the tariff system as we know it in this country. Then it is said that this Empire policy is out of date. I recall that it was out of date before the War, too, and there never was a time when it was not out of date, apparently, with some people who can look a tremendous distance, but never, in their view, can capture the idea of an Empire standing for such magnificent ideals as the British Empire stands for. Without labouring the question any further, I do personally appreciate very much the fact that we are for the first time in this country establishing on the Statute Book the fact that the British Empire is a domestic concern, and that each and every part of it is interested in every part of it.
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): We have listened to very interesting speeches in the course of this short discussion, and I think not the least interesting contribution to our Debate has been made, as is natural, by a gentleman who has spent a considerable measure of time in the Dominions and Colonies oversea. But I confess I am a little disappointed to find that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who initiated the Debate takes up the discussion of this question exactly where we left it before the great struggle from which we have emerged. He has forgotten nothing. Not one of the old arguments is missing. He has learned nothing. Not

    1881
    one of the new facts is recognised. He stands exactly where he did. Mr. Asquith has assured us for himself that that cannot be the case. I do not wish to quote his speeches, but at least I could have hoped that among his small and distinguished following in this House we might have received some recognition of the necessity for an advance and a new orientation of our policy such as Mr. Asquith recognised as resulting from this great struggle, and the dangers revealed to us in the outbreak and the course of that struggle against which he thought it necessary to guard. I cannot make the same reproach against the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). He frankly has changed his views completely. He was a preferentialist before the War, but the War has had the result on his mind of converting him to an ardent and antipreferentialist. I hope I do not do an injustice to his argument. I did not hear the whole of his speech, I am sorry to say, but I did hear this part. It appeared that before the War he was anxious lest in the day of trial the Empire should not be found wholly united and animated by a single code. Therefore, before the War he was anxious to take any measure which might tend to promote such union and secure the assistance and common action of all parts of the Empire if the great struggle came.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Before the War I thought in terms of Empire, and now I think in terms of humanity.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not quite certain if there are not merits in the old maxim that charity begins at home. But, accepting the hon. and gallant Gentleman's description of his own mind, he moves easily in terms of humanity. Lesser people are content to move on a lower level, but, perhaps, after all, they may get as far. I continue my summary of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument. Before the War he thought in terms of Empire, and was afraid that the Empire might not be found united and animated by the common purpose when the day of Armageddon came. He, therefore, supported every measure by which he could unite them, and, therefore, he was in favour of Preference. He thought that Preference would help to unite the Empire, not like the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the Front Bench opposite who thinks it will be a force of disunion. But
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    now see the further step in the development of the hon. and gallant Gentleman for Hull. Having found that during the War that happened which he did not venture to expect, and that the Empire did join with us in the common sacrifice, and bore their full share, ho says there is no use and no reason for paying the price now which he would gladly have paid before. Is that going to be the attitude of the House? Is that going to be the lesson we draw from the co-operation which the Dominions and British communities in every part of the world gave to bring the War to a successful conclusion?
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: And other nations.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am speaking of the British Empire. I hope the hon. Member does not think when I am speaking of the British Empire I am discourteous to the Allies if I do not diverge every moment to say that the Allies have also taken their share. I ask the Committee just to recall the issues. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull says there is no further need for Preference, since we have got all we want from the Dominions, and he has returned to humanity and has ceased to think about the Empire. The hon. and gallant Member on the Front Bench opposite says there is no occasion to think about this because the Dominions were perfectly content with our own policy, and had no desire for a change. What is his authority? He has none. The Dominions have again and again disclaimed any desire to interfere in our domestic controversies, or to ask for themselves anything from us which we thought it injurious to ourselves to grant, or which we thought re-acted adversely upon our own people. They have disclaimed that idea, and they have practically, repeatedly, and unanimously said that when we have settled our own tariffs in accordance with our own ideas and to suit our own needs, we should then embody in those tariffs a system of Imperial Preference. I want to put the matter quite fairly. May I just recall to the House how old this request is, and how unanimously it has been accepted by the representatives of the Dominions overseas?
    The first man to propose it was that great Dutch leader, Mr. Hofmeyr, at the Conference in Paris. The first man to carry it into effect was the Leader of the

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    Liberal party in Canada, the late Sir Wilfred Laurier. He carried it into effect in spite of threats, with the help of Canada, single-handed, against the aggressive action of our late enemy, Germany— action taken in order to prevent, or to punish, Canada for having done it, and to deter other portions of the British Empire from conceding a preference to our goods. At other Conferences, Imperial and Colonial, for years past, this question has been raised. At every Conference but one it has been carried with the representatives of the United Kingdom alone dissenting. At the last Conference it was carried with unanimity, the representatives of the United Kingdom assenting. It is really idle to say that after that long experience which men of both parties, or of all parties, have had in the different parts of the Empire over a long course of years, maintaining the same attitude in spite of the changes of Government—it is, I say, idle to say that there is no desire on the part of the Dominions that we should take this action if we can take it consistently with our own interests. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Benn) considered it inconsistent with our interests. We think it consistent, not only with our own interests, but in the highest interests of our own people, that this should be done. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) made a suggestion that had no countenance in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Captain Benn), that the Government had no warrant, and that the country had no knowledge of their intention; that the verdict at the last election was taken on another issue, and that, accordingly, we were acting ultra vires, so to speak, when we ventured to do such a thing.
    Those of us who have had the longest experience of politics would be, perhaps, the least ready to define exactly the issues which the voters have in their minds, and on -which they gave a decisive expression of opinion, in the course of a General Election. But I think I may say this, that, generally speaking, the view of the representatives of the two, or more, parties, or of the different parties, is whether for personal or public reasons that on the whole it is desirable that thin or the other set of men should be charged with the administration of affairs. Personally, if the truth is to be told about the last
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    election, it might not be very flattering to many of us. But if you want to crystallise in a sentence what the country did, it was to express confidence that the Prime Minister was the proper man to handle the difficulties with which we were confronted. It then becomes of importance to know what the Prime Minister said to the country as to the things he was prepared to do. Just let me read two or three passages from the address which the right hon. Gentleman and the Lord Privy Seal issued to the electors:
    "The country will need all the food, all the raw materials, and all the credit which it can obtain, and fresh taxes ought not to be imposed on food or upon the raw materials of our industry. At the same time a preference will be given to our Colonies upon existing duties and upon any duties which, for our own purposes, may be subsequently imposed."
    Could you have a more explicit, a more definite declaration of the policy which we are pursuing? Would it not be more true to say that if we do not now propose a preference on existing duties we should be breaking faith? To suggest, after the clear warning in the election address issued by the two leaders of our party as the basis of the mandate which they sought to suggest after that clear declaration in that address that the electors did not know what they were voting about, and would never have voted the way they did if they had had this question in their minds, is surely futile!
    Yesterday the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite made a charge against me which left me speechless. He said that I did not answer his questions. That really touched me because then it appeared that I distinctly failed in what I had tried to do. I had better try to deal with his points now. I hope I shall satisfy him. Whether my answer convinces him or not, at any rate, I shall try fairly to meet the points which he has put. I have dealt with the first, in which be contended that there was no Dominion's demand for Preference. Then he said that with the limited duties which are at present the subject of Preference the incidence of Preference is necessarily unequal as between the different parts of the British Empire. Some derive a greater advantage from Preference than do others. This he considers must arouse irritation and discontent in the Dominions which receive little or less than their share of advantage. By what right does the hon. and gallant Gentleman assume to himself the duty of making this statement
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    on behalf of the Dominions, none of whose representatives have made it for themselves. They have never claimed, whenever they have asked for Preference, and never suggested, that it would be possible for us to make the Preference in such a form that each Dominion got exactly the same benefit from it as any other. They have never taken that short-sighted, commercial view of the proposal. What they have asked is that we shall recognise the claims of kinship, and the unity of the great Commonwealth of Nations which compose the Empire. They are not going to look at the matter too nicely so long as we admit the principle and give a Preference where we can in accordance with our own fiscal system, whether or not somebody gets more out of it than do others. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says that this is the thin end of the wedge. I have only one answer to that: that Parliament and the people of this country may hereafter decide. I do not mind what measure you speak of or what expenditure you undertake, if it is found good in the eyes of Parliament and the country it is the thin end of the wedge ! It leads to more ! The thin end of the wedge argument only comes to this—we have all used it!—"I do not like what you are doing; I like still less what you may do hereafter." That is an attitude of mind adopted and equally applicable to every proposal that comes before the House. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "If we consent to give a Preference on any of these duties, we lose freedom of action in our own fiscal system." I say quite plainly that one of the factors, in considering whether or not it is desirable to abolish a duty at any given time, would be whether it was effective and useful in connection with our system of Imperial Preference. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "The hands of the House are tied and the Liberal free traders will hopelessly compromise themselves." I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is again misunderstanding and therefore misstating the whole attitude of mind of the Dominions statesmen and the Dominions people. Just as they do not ask that we shall put duties on which we do not find it expedient to put on for our own purposes, so they have never asked that we should keep duties on after we have found it expedient to take them off. What they have asked, and what we have agreed to, openly
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    agreed to, before the last election, is that where we have a duty, and so long as we have that duty, we will give a Preference. That leaves the House free to abolish the Preference to-morrow, as free as the Dominions, when face to face with our own people.
    Lastly, the hon. and gallant Gentleman was reinforced in his argument in this matter by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hull, who complained that the step we were taking was hostile to the world-movement of the hour, and more particularly to the third of President Wilson's Fourteen Points. I think that President Wilson has sometimes wished that he were allowed to explain his own points, and not find so many people ready to explain them for him. It has already been pointed out that the present practice of the United States is a practice we are asked to establish here, namely, that within our own boundaries we should give a preference. The practice of the United States was further alluded to by an hon. Member who quoted the case of Cuba. But Cuba is not part of the United States. Yet the United States gives a preference to Cuba. Is it not perfectly clear that President Wilson had no intention of denouncing the policy of his own country, or that he intended to reverse it. Therefore, those who misinterpret this one of President Wilson's Fourteen Points, who contend that the acceptance of it is any bar to what we are doing now. No, Sir, I am quite certain that President Wilson's Fourteen Points do not suggest that any country has no right, or would not continue to have the right, to differentiate between its own citizens and the citizens of another nation. What, he may have desired, and what I think he did desire, was to lessen the amount of discrimination, or to abolish the discrimination, with which one country treated foreign countries as compared with one another. That is a totally different thing. Part, I think, of the failure of the hon. and gallant Gentleman to recognise the lessons of the War, or to make any advance now from the stage the controversy had reached before the War broke out arises from the fact that he cannot conceive, or will not conceive, of the British Empire as one people. It has been suggested that you must not treat Yorkshire or Scotland better than a foreign country but even the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite would be the first to say that that was absurd.
    Captain W. BENN: I say, if you have Free Trade in Scotland you should have Free Trade in the whole world.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There is a great deal to be said for Free Trade with the whole world when you can get it. [An HON. MEMBER: "You cannot get it!"] I would like to see Free Trade within the Empire to-morrow, but we cannot get it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] Well, it does not depend upon us. If it did, I think we should have it to-morrow; and I will go further and say that, as far as I know the minds of Liberal free traders before the War, I should not think there is one of them who has not said at one time or another that he would gladly have Free Trade within the Empire, even at the cost of small tariffs against other countries. But it does not depend upon us, and the fiscal conditions of the Dominions do not admit of it. To say that what we do within the British Empire is a matter which concerns foreign countries, in which they have a right to offer remonstrance or complaint, I will not say to threaten, seems to be a denial of that for which we have fought and suffered in common and which has been solemnly sealed by bloodshed.
    It is true Preference has been given in the ease of the duties now in force, but it is a very small one. Measured in money, it is very small; although measured in potentialities within those limits it may be considerable. It may, however, and I think it will, just give the stimulus to development which may mean the difference between early and late development, and between poverty and prosperity, in many of our Dominions. I do not justify it on the ground of its tangibleness at this moment; I do not justify it on the ground of the development it will lead to, nor on the ground that if you approve it in respect of these duties you will some day propose other duties and extend it to them also. I justify it as a spiritual recognition of a spiritual unity. It is something for which all the Empire has asked. For that reason and not because of the profits they get out of it, it is justified. The last five years will have been wasted after that great struggle and those great sacrifices made in common if we could not make this spiritual recognition of the great bond of union which embraces us all.
    Sir DONALD MACLEAN: We have just had a new definition of the character of the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They are a spiritual recognition of the sacrifices of the common Empire. This has been placed on many grounds before, but to my mind that is the most unsatisfactory of them all. If it was a mere sentimental recognition for the time being, and a sort of testimonial, so far as that is concerned £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 would not matter. My right hon. Friend will forgive me for saying that while I am quite certain he was sincere in his peroration, he is a practical man who has devoted a large portion of his life to changes in our fiscal system which he desired, and I think he will at once admit that whatever the sentimental ideas there may be about them, he has in his mind the idea that they are going to be of great practical benefit to the people and to the Empire.
    But let us get back to business on that. First of all, I should like to say something about the election pledge that the right hon. Gentleman quoted. I hope I shall never take particular objection to the actions of any Government when they are challenged as to what their mandate was or was not. Personally I hold the view which Lord Morley has often expressed with regard to that, namely, that people elect a certain Government and they must take the consequence of the acts of that Government, and of what they deem to be right in the exercise of their authority until the next election comes. I have very little sympathy with the mandatory theory, and I believe myself in the authority and responsibility of the Government of the day. In so far as that election pledge is concerned, I may be forgiven for saying that it was part of the deal between the Prime Minister and his Unionist colleagues as to how they should run their election campaign, and my right hon. Friend will be the first I am sure to admit that it is in no sense binding on us. So much for my view on the question of the election. I do not think the people of the country were bothering at the election one little bit about Preference, for I think they were swept off their feet by an election which was taken under conditions which I have often described, and which I will not repeat, for it really has nothing to do with this question at all.
    I do not complain at the introduction of this measure as it is, because they had the authority, and let them exercise their

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    responsibility and take the consequences. There was another point which my right hon. Friend made more than once, and it was the effect on the Dominions of such a system as this. There was no question more keenly fought, out during the years from 1900 onwards than this very question, and in the year 1906, as far as the people of this country were concerned, it will be admitted at any rate that those proposals met with definite rejection by the electorate at that time. One would imagine from statements given us to-day that the result of that had been some falling off in the bonds of affection and loyalty between other parts of the Empire and the Mother Country; but when the day of trial came, at the start of the last War, was there any lack of loyalty or affection or devotion on the part of the whole of the great Dominions? Not at all. It had no effect whatever on them; and it was only a corroboration of the idea and the position they had laid down all along, which my right hon. Friend quite clearly stated here to-day.
    The position of the Dominions was this: "Questions of Preference and of tariffs are your business; it is for you to decide what you shall do." But they went further, and again I admit the Chancellor of the Exchequer most fairly put the position, which was, "If in your opinion any of the preferences you give to us bear hardly upon your people, either commercially or socially, we do not want them." The suggestion is that the proposals here to-day will not bear with undue hardship upon our people, but the reaction that must come is one which ought to be very carefully considered. In any event, we stand to lose £3,000,000 over this proposal. On the whole, I know this is trifling compared with the magnitude of the whole scope of the matters we have to deal with. I quote with much agreement what Mr. Joseph Chamberlain said in regard to the suggestion put forward as to what might be done on a minor scale with regard to Dominion Preference:
    "It is no good fiddling with these little things. They are of no value from the major point of view. Colonial preference means taxation upon food, upon corn, and upon other commodities which the Dominions send here in large quantities, and in regard to which they compete in our markets with foreign countries."
    6.0 P.M.
    Of course we know, and there can be no element of doubt in it, that what this must allude to is taxation upon corn. It is taxation upon wool, timber, and the
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    whole range of raw materials which are supplied to us, and inevitably from these beginnings must come the great fiscal scheme which will, as we think, inevitably lead to large additional burdens, being placed upon the people of this country, and especially upon those people who are least able to bear the burden. That is our case against these proposals. We are obdurate and obstinate, I know, and I dare say we are considered prejudiced, but that is the view we hold, and that is the view which I have not the least doubt that tariff reformers throughout the country and in this House will agree is their policy. We hold that view with conviction and force to-day, as we held it in the early days, and I think that substantially tariff reformers will agree with us that this is the first step towards a complete system of Dominion Preference which does mean taxation upon food and raw materials which we desire should come to 'this country at the cheapest possible rates. The present Leader of the House, the Lord Privy Seal, has over and over again stated, and I think I may repeat his words here once more, that preferential trade and the taxation of foreign manufactures are part of one idea, and the adoption of one will inevitably lead to the adoption of the other. It certainly will. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said a word or two as to what Mr. Asquith has stated during the War, and rather suggested that we were not in line with him. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has studied any of the speeches made in the country by the Leader of the Liberal party; if he has he will know that Mr. Asquith criticised and condemned these very proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in no uncertain terms. What we say in regard to the whole of his statement is this: we are setting up a machine here and now for all these preferential arrangements, whereby we can tax the manufactured article and whereby we can start the taxation of articles of food, and when you have got the machine going, why, of course, it will proceed. That is exactly what my right hon. Friend and the tariff reformers throughout this House aim at. It is what they have fought for all these years, and if they can get some of those who used to fight with us in the old days on the Tariff Reform platform, and in these Houses of Parliament, I congratulate them on their capture. To some minor extent we may regret our loss, but

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    we shall goon, and it is for them to make up their minds and to take their own line. But let there be no mistake about it. It is a very difficult position for them. The issue is whether by setting up this machine we recognise that we are definitely committing ourselves not to these rather trifling duties, although they are costing us £3,000,000, but to the whole system of Preference, which means taxation upon food and upon raw material, and, as the Leader of the House has said, the whole range of the taxation of foreign manufactures is part of the one idea.
    I sympathise very much myself with what has fallen from hon. Friends this afternoon, notwithstanding the very vigorous criticisms of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think it is a pity, when we are moving out into a fresh range of ideas, that this country should be departing from its traditions of Free Trade. It is a wrong time to do it; if ever there was a wrong time, this is the wrong time. It is a time when we might have hoped that the smaller ideas of the true progress of the nation might be enlarged by the wider scope of the free interchange not only of ideas, but of the products of each nation. My right hon. Friend said definitely that he would welcome Free Trade in the Empire and all the world over. Is it the way to approach that ideal to give up our hold on Free Trade and our practice of it? Surely not! Surely the right way is to hold on to what, on the whole, this country has done well under. The entry of this country into the War financially was an entry on a financial basis approached by no other nation. We have borne the burden without Preference within the Empire and without the taxation of manufactured articles, and that national burden has been carried by this nation in a way which not one of the greatest financiers within the bounds of the British Empire or of any other country would have deemed us capable of. I say the system of Free Trade without Preference, under which we have worked so well, was largely responsible for the financial strength of this country at the beginning of the War. We are beginning to change that system now. Those Gentlemen who advocate that change must discharge their responsibilities to their consciences and to their constituents, but when they are voting for the commencement of a new system they should know
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    that they are deserting the old path along which, on the whole, we have worked so well, which has meant so much for us and which has in no degree—and I say it with such knowledge as I have—led to any slackening of the bonds of Empire, which have been tested, time and time again, and proved true. We are departing from the old path on a career which I think is retrograde, and is not in accord with the spirit moving the world. What the result will be I cannot say, but as far as I am concerned, I feel justified on every ground, on the history of past experience, on the experience of people throughout the War—I say I feel justified in voting for the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: The object I have in asking the indulgence of the House for a few minutes is to assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he will be making a great mistake if he bases his hopes on any idea that the speech of the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. G. Murray) truly represents the views of the Coalition free traders. The difference in the position of the hon. Member for St. Rollox and myself is this. Whereas that hon. Member considers he has been bought, I consider I have been sold, and I propose to prove that to the Chancellor of the Exchequer under three heads. I am going to say, first of all, that there is not an intelligent elector in this country who, if he had it put before him that the first effect of the proposals for Preference of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be to deprive the Revenue of £3,000,000 a year, at a time like this, would not have held that he would be wanting in his duty if he supported the right hon. Gentleman. The second reason is to be found in the nature of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in introducing his Budget, in the nature of the speech he has delivered during this Debate—a speech which I took to be a challenge, and a very provocative one—in the nature of the speeches of those who support him, in the cheers which greeted him in certain quarters, and in the observations we hear passing between his supporters. These make very clear to me my position as a free trader. Thirdly, I am going to oppose this on this ground: that the present condition of trade in England, which is being justified by the Chancellor's policy, will be perpetuated, and will impose an intolerable

    1893
    burden on the community, and that it confronts us with grave social difficulties at no distant date.
    I want to say a word or two with reference to the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean). I think the right hon. Gentleman is very unfair to the Coalition Liberals. He talks of us always, and so does his Press, as not representing true Liberal sentiment in this country. I venture to assert that Liberalism in this country represents at least nearly one-half of the considered judgment of the British electorate, and it is not proper to suggest that the expression of Liberal opinion is confined to the right hon. Gentleman and those who sit with him—the forty-four, or forty-three, or forty-five members of his party. Rein ember that of that small number over thirty were returned to Parliament because they pledged themselves to support the Prime Minister in carrying out his programme; otherwise they would not have been here, and if the right hon. Gentleman is going to stand at that box and make appeals for a new patriotism, he should appeal to those who have always been associated with the cause of which he now claims to be the leader. His attitude reminds me of the story of a man who died and went to heaven. He was shown around by St. Peter, and expressed extreme satisfaction with what he saw, but he missed the members of a certain small community which I will not name, because some are to be found in my own Constituency. I will call them the spiritual Wee Frees. He asked Peter why there were none of them there, and Peter replied. "Come this way." He took him up a hill, and when they got to the top, enjoined silence upon him. Looking down he noted a little company praying and singing, and he asked Peter, "Why did you want me to be silent when I was brought here?" The answer was, "I did not want you to disturb them; they are the only people here." That is exactly the position which the right hon. Gentleman takes up.
    I have listened to the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with great and growing amazement. I do not know if there is any possibility of the Free Trade mind and the Tariff mind getting into real contact with each other. I quite appreciate what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain
    1894
    Wedgwood Benn), that it was no good trying to find accommodation between them. No accommodation is possible, it cannot be possible after the speech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has delivered to-day. He said that we had nothing to learn from the War! Fancy that argument lying in his mouth. And then he turned to the hon. Member for Hull, and twitted him with having been originally Imperialistic because he thought the British Empire could not be kept together without tariffs. He said my hon. and gallant Friend was surprised that the Empire had remained united. But surely it was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who did not expect the Empire to remain united. I remember the argument advanced in 1903 not only by the right hon. Gentleman, but by his father, and by others who thought with him, and one of the main arguments was that the British Empire must be cracked asunder without tariffs. I remember one speech I heard his father deliver in Birmingham, and I heard the first he delivered in May, 1903, in which he likened the edifice of the British Empire to the old Campanile in Venice. He said how people looked at it. It had been there for so many years and looked as if it was a permanent structure, but there were cracks in it. The wise men warned but the foolish men would not heed, and the structure which had stood for so many hundreds of years came tumbling down the ears of the astounded citizens. So it would be with the British Empire unless they put it on a cash basis.
    Why does not the right hon. Gentleman apologise to the country for having advanced an argument in 1903 which has proved to be one of the most foolish calculations ever made by a statesman in 1914; and why does he not further apologise to the House for using it to-day? Every time this argument is used the right hon. Gentleman insults the British Empire. He tells the British Empire that unless it is given a monetary grant, unless the people of England are to be heavily taxed —this year only £3,000,000 but more to come—the Empire we all love will break apart. It is not we Liberal free traders who are lacking in love of the Empire. It is the school of thought represented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which says, "Without giving them something for nothing and without giving them something in cash, they will break away and will cease to care for you!" What did

    1895
    he finally come to, to answer his own argument? He said this was a spiritual recognition of a spiritual unity. Why disturb the unity by bargaining in terms of cash? What is the matter with the British Empire? The right hon. Gentleman says we should take steps to unite it. It is united, as our enemy found to its cost. He talked about the great day of Armageddon. Was there any more wonderful spectacle seen in the history of the world than what happened to the British Government on the day of Armageddon? He went on to refer to bloodshed. Was this blood shed because our trade policy was not satisfactory, or because if it was shed we should have a more satisfactory trade policy? Have we really no ideals? Is this the way to talk about the sacrifices of these men who came from far parts of the Empire? Give them Id. on a mouth-organ, 2½d. on a motor-oar to a South African who does not make it, or 3d. on a film to an Australian who does not make it, or 4d. on a clock to a Canadian who does not make it, and if 4d. is not enough, will 6d. do, and if we double it and make it Is., will you love us twice as much, and if we make it£l will you love us through this world and the world to come? I am a very strong Imperialist, and that is why I regret this degradation of listening to such a conception of Empire, which, if it be true, and if it is to be the sort of Empire that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to build up and make still more firm, will be as rotten as the Roman Empire and as rotten and as menacing as the German Empire, and will call upon itself inevitably sufficient of the forces of civilisation to secure its destruction.
    The right hon. Gentleman said the Colonies have asked again and again that we would give them a preference when we had settled our own tariff. He may say to me, "This is a fine Coalition speech you are making." I say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "That is a fine argument to advance to one who gave the pledge in the terms which he read out." "We have not settled our tariff, but the Preference is already produced. We know we know nothing about the tariff. The President of the Board of Trade knows all about it. It is the one he told us about in the box, typewritten, and he has the key. We are not going to know anything about the tariff policy, but we have to
    1896
    accept the Preference now, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, after the blood that has been shed, we must conceive of the British Empire as one people. We do conceive a sense in which the British Empire is one people, we who oppose this proposal, but we conceive a sense in which more than the people of the British Empire are one people. To say we must conceive the British Empire as one people is in itself, as a sentence in English, the merest rhetoric, but, translated into terms of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it means that unless we are a people who confine our trade among ourselves we are a people who cannot remain united. Then he says the different Dominions ask us, "Is this going to be an equal distribution of your favours all round to various parts of the Empire?" The different Dominions are not going to look into the matter too nicely. It is all very well for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to use such phrases, but I address any business man in the House. Fancy people doing a business deal of such importance as is proposed when they are not going to look at it too nicely. Is this business or is it sentiment? If it is both, one will cancel the other. My opinion is that it is very bad business and very false but translated into terms of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it means that unless we are a people who confine our sentiment.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to say there is a great deal to be said for Free Trade for the whole world. Of course there is, but I am satisfied that Free Trade for the whole of the world would be a very bad thing for Great Britain. If America became Free Trade it would be a very serious thing for this country indeed, though not so serious, for nothing could be so serious, as that the restrictions put upon industries for a special purpose should be maintained in order that the right hon. Gentleman should carry through a proposal such as we are now considering. This is the worst-conceived business proposal that has ever been addressed to the British House of Commons. It began with a net loss; it is supported by rhetoric. It violates the sanctity of those who fought and died on the battlefield by suggesting that they want a cash payment now for their loyalty, and it opens up a world prospect which is appalling. If one thing more than another would have justified my opposition to this, it is the speeches of those

    1897
    who have supported the right hon. Gentleman. We had an hon. Member last night trying to support him with reference to the retention of these restrictions. He said he was not in favour of free Trade or of Protection. My experience shows me that any man who is not in favour of Free Trade or Protection can always be relied on to vote for Protection. It is like a man who tells you he has no party. He is neither a Liberal nor a Conservative; but when he gets to the polling booth he finds that the Conservative candidate is a personal friend of his own. He said he had no particular preference on these things, but he wanted to say a word on the subject of motors. "I cannot embrace the whole world in my views," he said in effect, "but do look after motors." But why look after motors? What is the matter with the musical boxes and the mouth organs'! Are not they to be looked after? What is the matter with those magnificent jewellery manufactures in Canada which do not exist? Are not they to be given a chance? Are you not going to summon from the wildest parts of the Colonies a highly-organised industry? If you look after motor cars, why not look after all these other things?
    The hon. Member (Mr. Bigland) in supporting these proposals the other night said he knew of a gentleman who was willing to put up £100,000 to start a new business if he only got a little encouragement from the right quarter. And a very wise man, too. But I do not see why the hon. Member's friend is so modest. Bankers are very generous in these days. We shall always remember with gratitude the definition of a key industry as any industry that needs protection. If only I could get into the light quarter and come to a proper understanding with the President of the Board of Trade, it is not £100,000 or £1,000,000 or £5,000,000 that I could find by noon to-morrow to establish any industry which the Government will tell me is a key industry in the sense that it needs protection from everyone else. We should make from 100 per cent. up to 300 per cent. per annum, as manufacturers are doing now, to the peril of our whole financial structure and our economic life, and they are doing it under the protection of the President of the Board of Trade. All this talk about our industries as little puking babies that need the succour of the Treasury Bench to keep alive is the old stuff that we have heard since 1903, but it
    1898
    has never been presented with such a favourable Parliamentary opportunity. The hon. Member (Mr. G. Murray) said the War came despite Free Trade. I agree that it did, but we should not have succeeded in carrying it on if it had not been that we were a Free Trade country when it broke out, and, so far as possible, remained one during the War. That is disputed. Should we have had our great credits at our disposal in America if it had not been for our Free Trade policy? How could we have financed our American purchases? Is it conceivable that we could have financed our American purchases but for the fact that we were trading under Free Trade? Then the hon. Member (Mr. Wilson-Fox) gave another illustration which was very interesting. He said he had often told this story. I quite believe him. But I do not think he has told it in the House before. I should think he has told it at rural meetings, to the astonishment of the natives, where there is no reporter and no one can chuckle as we all chuckled when we heard it.
    Mr. WILSON-FOX: As far as I recollect, I have only once told that story, and that was in this House.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL:The hon. Member said he had told it before. I think it would be more acceptable in the country than it is in this House. The story is that there was an order obtainable for £60,000 worth of machinery. A British firm and an American firm tendered. The British firm tendered £300 below the American, "and so," he says, "that shows you what a very small margin will often secure contracts." But why run the thing so fine? Why take a risk on such a small margin? Why give this pitiful little preference? Why not secure the British manufacture? Fancy leaving as narrow a margin as £300 on a £60,000 contract! It is less than a half per cent. To think that an order for £60,000 turned on that! It is a story that the hon. Member may tell for his own pleasure, but not to the profit of anyone who knows on what profit contracts of that sort turn. I cannot see, if these arguments are to be advanced, why they are advanced in this House in support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal, and why he does not repudiate them. If these full-blooded protectionist speeches, advancing arguments which every protectionist has advanced year after year, are made, why does not the right hon. Gentleman say, "I am obliged to these hon. Members for their promises, in advance, of support, but they

    1899
    do not express my views. They go far beyond my intention. I am as innocent of such purposes as are in their minds as it is possible to be." If he would repudiate their arguments, we should feel some sense of security. But he does not, and we are entitled to presume that his supporters fully represent his own mind in the matter. The hon. Member (Mr. Wilson-Fox) said this question was our own domestic concern. Of course, there is a sense in which it is our own domestic concern; but we have all got to live together in this world. Every country has to trade with every country. It is an absurd proposal that we are going to live in independence of the commercial policy of other countries. Of course, we are not; and to say that we are going to make this purely a personal concern is to put before this country an ideal which we have fought in this War to destroy.
    If the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Friends have their way, we are going to establish an Empire the like of which the world has never seen, resolutely separated from the rest of the world, with great armaments commonly divided, with Protection established in every part, and we shall set up a new kind of alliance which will inevitably lead to the conditions of 4th August, 1914. I oppose these proposals because—I do not know what other hon. Members feel—I view with very grave alarm the present condition of things. If our ports are not freely opened, and opened very soon, the social condition of this country will be awful. We are confronted by the most serious conditions that any one of us has ever lived to see. There is not an article of common necessity for the masses of the people which can be produced at a price which is not abominably high. Fraud is being perpetrated from every quarter by the commercial classes. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I use the word "fraud" not in the penal sense as relating to an individual, but I use it in the sense that the person who pays the price is being defrauded because he does not get value for the money he pays, and he is defrauded because the person who sells is not giving value for the money he receives. This is not the time for proposals which mean limiting the imports into this country in order to give this trivial, ridiculous, and uneconomic Preference. We have no right to do this. We ought to concentrate our thoughts upon united progress and human
    1900
    effort. That will never come to this stricken world until we cease thinking in terms of tariff and terms of cash, and until we think in terms of human necessity and play our part in carrying out the programme that we were returned to this House to carry out, and that was to make this world a fit place to live in.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: The speech to which we have just listened must, I think, have filled hon. Members with amazement. The concluding remarks of the hon. Member were of such a character that I think they clearly showed that he is in no way interested in commerce in this country, and has nothing to do with commercial concerns. That is important because it shows that he is completely divorced from any question of national industry, that he is not a producer and does not mind much about any such details. I will ask the hon. Member one question. Does he deny that the Prime Minister gave a definite pledge at the time of the election that we would give a Preference to the Dominions, Colonies, and Protectorates? I understand from what he said that he is a Coalition Liberal. I do not know whether he immediately made it clear on the pronouncement of the Coalition leaders that he would not have any truck with their policy. The facts stand for all the world to know that the Coalition adopted that policy and adopted it in spite of the fact—
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: I was opposed in my election by a Conservative protectionist. I was asked if I was a free trader and I said, "Yes." As a matter of fact, the subject was very little considered. We had more serious things in our minds than such a scheme as this, as I am sure the hon. and gallant Member had.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: I desire to apologise to the hon. Gentleman, because I was under the impression from all I have heard that he climbed into Parliament on the back of the Prime Minister. He was almost fulsome in his adulation of the Prime Minister, and in his declaration of how heartily he followed his great leader. He mentioned in his speech that Liberals were returned because they were pledged to carry out the Prime Minister's programme.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: To support the Prime Minister's programme.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: To support the Prime Minister's programme. I do not

    1901
    think there is a great deal of difference. The Liberals were returned, himself included, because they were pledged to carry oat or support the Prime Minister's programme. I think we can leave the matter there, and leave the hon. Member to settle with his own conscience as to whether he is doing that at the present time. I do not want to follow the hon. Gentleman into the argument he has used with respect to Preference, but I would like to deal for a moment with the matter in which he endeavoured to find fault with the argument of the hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Wilson-Fox). To the hon. Gentleman's mind it was a very small matter if a contract in this country was lost owing to a difference of some few hundred pounds. I should like to give him an instance. I do not know whether the contract has been actually carried out, but a week ago the Tramway Committee of the Glasgow Corporation recommended the corporation to purchase 5,000 tons of steel rails. I have not the figures by me as I did not know the matter would be raised in Debate, but so far as my memory serves me the Glasgow figures were £19 5s. per ton, and the figures from the United States of America were £17 10s. per ton. I worked the figures out at the time, and I found that if the suggestion of the Tramways Committee was accepted, the ratepayers of Glasgow would save £5,500, but the loss to British industry would be £65,000. When we are paying unemployment doles in Glasgow far more than £5,000, are we wise, for any international idea which the hon. Member suggests, to say that we must give this great contract to the U.S.A.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument answers itself. You have 1,000,000 people out of work in this country owing to the policy of restricted imports.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: May I add this for the hon. Gentleman's information, because the trouble is that some hon. Gentlemen have not been studying this question recently, that there never has been a day when there has been so little actual unemployment in this country as at the present moment. I think if that is worked out it will be found that that is the case. There is less actual distress in this country at the present moment than there has ever been, and if only we can start production in this country and not allow uncertainty to continue, you will see
    1902
    a great boom in your productive industries. I take very great exception to what the hon. Member said in regard to our Preference to the Dominions. He said we were giving something to the Dominions and Colonies for nothing. I think that at the end of this War no one in this House ought to be guilty of such a statement as that. Has he not followed the history of the Dominion Preference which has been given to this country for all these years? When he says that we are giving something for nothing, may I remind him that when the Preference was first established in Canada by that great Liberal statesman, the late Sir Wilfred Laurier, and accepted by every Parliament in the Dominion ever since, the whole of our exports to the Dominions were on the decline, but from that moment, and when a similar system was adopted by the other Dominions, our trade with the Dominions went up, as even the hon. Gentleman must know, hand over fist. With what result? Two years before the War Australia, with 6,000,000 people, was buying more goods from this country than the 68,000,000 or 70,000,000 people in the German Empire, while New Zealand, with just under 1,000,000, people were buying more from this country than Belgium with 7,000,000 people.
    Mr. LYLE-SAMUEL: We remained Free Trade in order that we could carry on our export trade.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: The hon. Member may try to wriggle out of the facts, but facts they are and facts they will remain. If that policy was good for the Dominions, and if they wore right in making sacrifices, it must be good for this country to adopt a similar policy, although I must confess that I cannot share the Chancellor of Exchequer's enthusiasm for the present measure before the House, because it is indeed a little measure. I would like to refer to what the Leader of the official Liberal party (Sir D. Maclean) said this afternoon. He said that we were moving to a fresh range of ideas. He does not seem to have moved very far. It is an extraordinary thing that he should refuse to us permission to consider the alteration of our fiscal system when he is telling us that we are all moving towards this fresh range of ideas. He suggested that any additional cost in this country must be serious. I presume he is referring to the duties and the loss of revenue. On the other hand, we have the hon. Mem-

    1903
    ber (Mr. Lyle-Samuel) taking an exactly opposite view and saying that we really should not consider the question of the advantage to the taxpayer or to traders or anything of that kind in his idealistic world. It is the reduction of duties which affects us in voting upon this question today, and I was under the impression that free traders desire to reduce the very duties upon which the principal point of Preference turns. They have always told us that duties must be reduced, that you must have a free breakfast table, but it appears that they must not be reduced on any account if the reduction is in favour of the people of the British Empire. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the way to get Free Trade throughout the world, presumably under the new League of Nations, is to hold to our present policy of Free Trade. We have held to it for sixty or seventy years, and can anyone say there has been the slightest inclination on the part of any other country in the world to follow our example? Can anyone deny that far from that being the case they have taken every advantage of our policy to exploit our people and to exploit our labour market. When this argument has been used, as it has been used this afternoon, that for the sake of the League of Nations we must not do anything to trade with our own people, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues whether there has been one jot or tittle of evidence that President Wilson, whom they are so ready to quote, has shown any willingness whatever to abandon the fiscal system of the United States of America, or the preferential tariffs they have with their Colonies. Let us try to keep to facts.
    We have been dreaming on this question for so long. We have always been scanning the horizon for the other countries that were going to follow our example, but no evidence has been forthcoming that any countries are prepared to do that. Whether this question of Preference is to be a big thing or a small thing, I ask my hon. Friend (Mr. Lyle-Samuel), who declared himself an Imperialist, whether he can face the citizens of our Dominions oversea after they have made all these great sacrifices for years, to the enormous advantage of this country, and whether he can still look them in the face after what they have done for us in this War, if we are still going to refuse to reciprocate the great advantage which they have
    1904
    given us. I do not know whether my hon. Friend has had the privilege, as some of us have had, of seeing men from Canada and Australia die like flies in the great battles of the War, showing the tremendous sacrifices that these people have made in coming 12,000 or 13,000 miles to enter into a quarrel in the Old World to which they are so much attached. We have had the unanimous action of the Dominions, expressed by all the Imperial conferences, asking that there might be an inter-Imperial arrangement of a similar character. Is the hon. Member now, at the end of this War, after all that has been given to the Mother Country by the Dominions, going to say, "No, we will not tolerate such a thing, because it may mean a little more cost to this, that, or the other?" or is he going to follow the example of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has made a great appeal this evening, and to realise that the only standard on which we ought to consider this question is a high spiritual standard, that we are going to stand by our friends in the British Empire, and to show, after the Empire has stood this great test, that we are indeed of one family, and we are not going to continue the policy of divorcement which has been adopted in the past
    Colonel GREIG: I cannot help thinking, after having listened carefully to this Debate, that there has been a great deal of exaggeration on both sides of the question. I happen to be a Coalition Liberal, and naturally have to ask myself on which side I am going to vote. We have been told from the benches opposite that those of us who vote for the Government are breaking our pledges, while on the other side we are told that if we do not do that we shall stultify ourselves. An hon. Member below the gangway says he feels that he has been sold. I cannot credit that. I do not think that he has quite grasped what is the object of hon. Members opposite, because what the Leader of the Opposition, the modern Cassandra, if I may be permitted to say so without any impoliteness, is out for is to get Coalition Liberals to throw in their lot against the Government. As to the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, may I refer to what was the joint programme put before the country at the time of the election—a programme to which we Coalition Liberals adhered— as a programme that was necessary in order that the two wings of the party

    1905
    should know exactly where they were. We all know that before the War the bulk of our Unionists friends were pledged to a policy of Protection and Preference. We on our side were free traders and are free traders to-day. We therefore wanted to know whether anything had taken place since the Armistice was signed which would leave us on unsafe ground. The statement of the Prime Minister at the General Election was absolutely known to the country, and satisfied us and satisfied our constituents who returned us to Parliament. So it is not right to say that the question was not raised. We were asked about it, and defined our position. The Prime Minister in his manifesto said:
    "Until the country has returned to normal industrial conditions it would be premature to prescribe a fiscal policy intended for permanence."
    On this part of the programme we are still in that position now. I shall have a word to say as to what the other side said about committing themselves to the present policy, seeing that hon. Members opposite committed themselves to supporting Mr. McKenna in 1915.
    The manifesto continued:
    "The country will need all the food, all the raw materials and all the credit which it can obtain and fresh taxes ought not to be imposed on food or on the raw materials of our industry."
    From my point of view as a free trader that is a very substantial step in advance for men like the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others who were committed in the past to taxes upon food. Here is a clear declaration that at least in the interim period that shall not be attempted:
    "At the same time a preference will be given to our Colonies upon existing duties and upon any duties which for our own purposes may be subsequently imposed."
    If any more comment be needed upon this, it may be found in the letter to the Leader of the House from the Prime Minister, dated 2nd November. There the statement is made which carries out a little more fully the pledge which was in that manifesto which I think was published shortly afterwards:
    "In the first place in regard to economic policy. I have already accepted the policy of Imperial Preference—
    That is the Prime Minister's statement on 2nd November, so that the hon. Member below the gangway who says that he was sold could not have read that, and he must have been utterly ignorant of the programme of the Prime Minister on which he himself got into Parliament—
    1906
    The Prime Minister proceeds:
    "as defined in the resolutions of the Imperial Conference to the effect that a preference will be given on existing duties and on any duties which may subsequently be imposed. On this subject I think there is no difference of opinion between us. I have at the same time stated that our policy does not include a tax on food, but that does not of course interfere with the granting of a preference on any article as, for example, tea or coffee, on which for our own purposes we have imposed a duty."
    When I come to look at what the duties are, there is not one of them which can be called a protective duty. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may smile. They are on much safer ground in asking us to vote against Motor Taxes, but the ones I refer to are not protective.
    Captain BENN: They arc all covered by the Clause.
    Colonel GREIG: They are all in the Clause, quite true. But there is a considerable difference to my mind. These are duties which we have imposed as indirect taxation. The position of an ordinary free trader is that he is not opposed to indirect taxation as being in itself an interference with Free Trade, and the imposition of a duty on an article coming from abroad is not Protection. What we object to is the imposition of a duty as a means whereby the producer in a country which is protected can put up the price and collar the extra amount for himself. Most of these taxes are on things which cannot be produced in this country. They are taxes which have been sot up in Free Trade times by Free Trade Ministers, and have been continued until the present time—on tea, coffee, chicory, sugar, glucose, and all the rest of it. They were all in existence in every Free Trade Budget which we have had, and it is ridiculous to say that this is a new departure that is going to launch us upon a landslide of Protection. All it does is to give a slight Preference on existing duties. There are two advantages. Firstly, they are given on products which we consume here, and are largely in one sense food, and will reduce the cost by some £3,000,000; and secondly, because they do have the other effect of giving our Colonies a preference. Now, I commit myself to that wholeheartedly. It came originally from the Imperial Conference, but it has been supported in a document which I hold in my hand which is signed by such free traders as Lord Balfour of Burleigh and many

    1907
    others on the Committee of Commercial and Industrial Policy after the War, in which they say, as regards the imposition of duties on food:
    "There are at present such duties levied in the United Kingdom for Revenue purposes—on tea, coffee, cocoa, sugar, tobacco, wines and spirits, and we have already recommended in our resolution addressed to the Prime Minister on the 2nd February, 1917, that these should be utilised for the purpose of giving a first measure of Colonial Preference. We have recommended that preferential treatment should be accorded to the British Overseas Dominions in respect of any other Customs Duties which may hereafter be imposed in the United Kingdom. We desire to direct attention in this place to the expediency of considering measures of Imperial Preference other than the imposition of differential Customs Duties, as for example, Government contracts to purchase for a term of years at guaranteed minimum prices the whole or part of the output of material in the Dominions required by the Home Government or financial assistance for the development of Imperial resources."
    When we are told that because we do that we are committing ourselves to the landslide of Protection, I frankly say that it is downright nonsense. So far as I am concerned I have stated these opinions in my Constituency, and I am on perfectly safe ground. When we are told that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is bound to go on to a system of taxation on food, may I point out that he himself denied that. When this point was raised originally on the 1st of May, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, interrupting the Leader of the Opposition, said:
    "I am loth to interrupt my right hon. Friend. Personally, I have never repented of my support of a tax on food in pre-War times, and have never given anybody any reason to be doubtful of my opinion upon the subject; but it is no proposal of His present Majesty's Government to place new duties upon food, and what I had in mind when I used the words my right hon. Friend has quoted was that Imperial trade now actually done in the articles made the subject of preference will, I believe, under that preference, enormously extend within the lifetime of many Members. If it goes further still, I am glad, but all I had in my mind in that statement was the effect of the actual preference proposed in the present Budget. "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st May, 1919, col. 396, Vol. 115.]
    I am perfectly satisfied with that. I am as convinced a free trader as ever, and am opposed to a protective tariff, but I find nothing whatever in the existing duties which may be called protectionist except in the case of motor cars and a few other things and Motor Duties are a very good tax at the present time, because they are keeping out objects of luxury, and if
    1908
    people want those expensive articles from abroad it is just as well they should pay this tax.
    Captain BENN: The consumer pays the tax.
    Colonel GREIG:Yes, and in this case the people who can afford to buy motor cars are just the people whom I should like to make pay the tax. As a free trader, my withers are entirely un-wrung. I am not at all attracted by the wooing of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I do not feel that I have been sold. I support whole - heartedly this programme, because I believe that it is a wise and expedient programme for the transitory period in which we still find ourselves.
    7.0 P.M.
    Mr. SPENCER: Those with whom I happen to be associated do not pin our faith either to Free Trade or to Tariff Reform as presenting a final solution of the many difficulties with which we are faced. But of the two systems, we think that that of Free Trade is better than that of Tariff Reform; though not exactly the Free Trade policy of the Liberal party, the party that is moving this Amendment. I think that party still believes in imposing Customs Duties upon articles for purposes of raising revenue, and last night many of the hon. Members who are associated with the Mover of this Amendment refused to support an Amendment which had for its object the entire removal of this tax. Therefore I, for one, and the party with which I am associated, do not entirely follow the Mover of the Amendment and those who have supported him in the House to-night. We shall, however, support the Amendment, because, as I have already stated, of the two systems we think Free Trade is the better for the workers of this country. I want to approach the question, first, from a revenue point of view because this Clause proposes to give between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000 to the cultivation of tea alone. I think it will have to be admitted that that amount will have to be paid by the consumers of this country, and that it is largely going to Be extracted out of the pockets of the poor. The amount of revenue which is going to be relieved is £2,000,000; therefore, that sum has to be derived from somewhere else. Who is going to pay the extra twopence?
    Sir WATSON RUTHERFORD: Is it not the consumer?
    Mr. SPENCER: Yes; that is what I say.
    Mr. BIG LAND: That twopence is taken off.
    Mr. SPENCER: Yes; it is taken off, and—
    Sir W. RUTHERFORD: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is the taking off of the twopence for which someone has got to pay; because we have not been able to follow him?
    Mr. SPENCER: Well, you will be able to follow me. It is the twopence that is taken off which he will have to pay, because those who send tea to this country, the cultivators, will charge the same for the tea as though it were actually on, and will pocket the twopence. The object of the preference, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us, is to enrich the Colonies and the Dominions. Who is it to enrich? The cultivators of tea. My point is that that £2,000,000 have got to be found. I want to draw the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to a document issued by his Department dealing with taxes and super-taxes. The first item deals with incomes not exceeding £160 per annum, and it shows that the taxes derived from that source of income give the right hon. Gentleman about £1,600,000. I believe a deputation has met him to ask for the removal of the point of abatement from about £130 to a higher figure But the right hon. Gentleman finds he cannot do that. He can give £2,000,000 to tea growers in the Dominions, although he cannot give even £1,600,000 to the people of this country, many of whom have been struggling along in this War and have come back again to find that the cost of living has gone up so much that their standard of livelihood is not so high as it was when they went away.
    There were two points in the speech of the Mover of the Amendment which, I think, were entirely justified by the speeches which have been delivered. The first point was the uncertainty of the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Mover of the Amendment pointed out that this was only the beginning, and that no man could see to-day the ultimate stages of the progress of this form of Protection. Also, that it was ultimately going to lead to other articles being taxed for the purpose of protecting, not only the Colonies, but our own industries. I think the speeches which have been de-
    1910
    livered by those supporting the Government, and by the Chancellor himself, all point in that particular direction, because, in dealing with that matter, he said that the future of a policy of that character absolutely depended upon Parliament and not upon him. The present composition of Parliament leads one to believe that if a good many hon. Members who have spoken this afternoon have their way, and can influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the policy which he has inaugurated in this Budget will be carried still further in a progressive, rising degree, until we have absolute Protection in this country. Another point which was dealt with, and with which the right hon. Gentleman has attempted to deal, in a very unfortunate manner, I think, was that of the incidence of Preference being unequal. Trying to answer that, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that, so far as the Dominions were concerned, they had never made such a short sighted commercial demand for a preference, and he thought there would be no demand made. Well, the right hon. Gentleman has a far-wider experience and knowledge in politics and in commerce than I have, but, from my limited experience in this House, I am led to believe that once he starts any form of Protection he does not know where he is going to end. He may open the sluice-valves of Protection, but he himself and his Government may probably find some day that they themselves, if they desire to do so, are unable to shut them again. I have listened in this House to the farming interest, which is represented on the opposite benches, rising more than once to press the Government to declare their policy on agriculture. What policy? The policy of giving a form of protection to the farmer which he has obtained during the War. During the War you have guaranteed certain prices to the agricultural interest. As soon as ever the time approached when those promises were nearing their completion you got a united organisation in this House crying for the continuity of the policy of protecting the farmer. Therefore, the only evidence I have got, so far as this House is concerned, goes to show that, instead of the people of the Dominions being satisfied and having no enmity and jealousy one against another in relation to the incidence of this preference, the very opposite will be the case. Once you start this, and give a certain preference to any form, either of industry or agriculture, behind it will grow

    1911
    up an interest which is dependent upon it. Once any attempt is made to break it down again that interest will organise itself and bring its influence to bear on this House, not only for its continuity, but for its advancement.
    It has also been stated during the Debates that, in view of the League of Nations, we ought to be very guarded and careful before we take any step whatever which might culminate in another disastrous war such as that through which we have been passing. I am not an historian, and I cannot claim to be one, but I remember listening at an election to one of the greatest historians in this country, who said that the wars of England and the great movements of Europe and this country had an economic basis, except two. You cannot foresee the future and the very beginnings in this House to-day, small though they may seem, these little streamlets of Protection that we are, so to speak, letting loose may begin to run and gather in their flow and extend until they become a mighty stream, which will culminate again in a conflagration such as that through which Europe has been passing. What has been the central note during that conflict? The economic domination of Germany. And, as has already been pointed out this afternoon by one speaker, if we attempt to do anything such as we are trying to at the present moment, we, who entered this War for no territorial or economic aggrandisement, would be the first to resort, not to the policy which we were pursuing before the War began, but to anew policy, diametrically opposite to that which we had before the War. We should be setting a bad example which can and may be followed, and which, in my opinion, if it is followed, will only assist in the generation of those human passions which went along way to make this. War what it actually was. One of the first causes of war is the creation of mutual suspicion among the nations, and if this Clause is carried to-day it will be the beginning of that suspicion among the nations, from an economic point of view. It can be of no use or advantage to the working classes of the country, whom I support and whose side of the case I am here to advance as far as I can. It does not depend on tariff or non-tariff, but upon the right of men, without let or hindrance, to apply their skill, ability, energy, and industry, and so to create a commonwealth of happiness
    1912
    and prosperity which does not and cannot depend upon any tariff wall.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: May I make an appeal to the Committee? I do not underrate the importance of the issue that we are deciding, but we have discussed it for some time, and we have still to deal with some other detail aspects of the matter. I trust, therefore, that the Committee will be content now to take a decision upon this matter.
    Major TRYON:I rose only because I noticed that some of those who are opposed to the Government refused to answer the appeal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I did not feel that it was fair to our side of the House that the Debate should be conducted from one side only without the other side having an opportunity of replying. The hon. Member who spoke from the Back Benches on the other side (Mr. Spencer) tells us that this is going to be the beginning of suspicion among nations. Really, before anybody gets up on the Labour Benches to address the House of Commons I think he might acquaint himself with the facts. Practically every great nation at the present time has tariffs. I should have thought, before speaking from the Labour Benches, that he would have ascertained that this was the settled policy of the Labour party in Australia. The Labour party in Australia fought the last General Election on what they claimed to be a policy of tariff ramparts. If every other country in the world continues to have tariffs, we in this country have every right not necessarily to adopt Protection, but to consult with our Colonies as to what measures we shall take as one Empire to meet the difficulties of the future. That is all that it amounts to. This does not commit the country to a general policy of Protection or tariffs. Personally, I should not be sorry if it did, but I am not going to claim, as a tariff reformer, that we have won a victory. I do not think that we have. All that it decides is that we and the Dominions are going forward together to face the very difficult future.
    We have been told that we have a new world. I hope that we have, but it is one in which a good many things, including coal, are getting very dear. If it is a new world, then we can go forward in a new spirit. If every other country is going to throw down tariffs, then I for one would not put them up. But if we are to have our trade coerced, controlled,

    1913
    changed, and diverted by the action of every other country except our own, then it is time that as a nation and an empire we resumed control and tried to free our trade from foreign domination and diversion.
    I very much regret that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke first (Captain W. Benn) is not here, because I wanted to ask what has become of his Chinamen. In the earlier Debate he told us that we must not do this because the Chinese Empire would object. What has happened? Has he failed to rouse" the Chinese Empire and to get the Chinese to join his small party on the opposite benches? We were told that we were not to be allowed to do what we liked because the Chinese people would object. That is a new form of authority to which we have to defer in our Imperial affairs. What has happened? The hon. and gallant Gentleman has withdrawn his Chinaman, and apparently that argument has collapsed. We are now setting to work on the basis of the Empire and not on the basis of these islands. We can move forward towards more Free Trade within the Empire perfectly well if the Dominions wish it, and I protest against any suggestion that any nation or any League of Nations has any right to dictate what we shall do within our own Empire. An hon. Member sitting below the Gangway took the coupon, but apparently did not act up to it. I think he would have behaved more fairly to the electors if he had either refused the coupon, or, having taken it, had stuck to the bargain on which we all came here and had supported the Government. He told us that Mr. Joseph Chamberlain many years ago, in that great speech which I well remember, warned the country of the danger that we were in, and likened this country to the Campanile of St. Mark's, Venice. I look upon that as an absurd suggestion.
    Has the hon. Member forgotten what has happened since then? Does anybody doubt that Mr. Chamberlain was right, and that we were in great danger, in danger of relying too much on foreign sources of supply, on food from overseas, and on absolute dependence upon Germany for certain essential products which Germany did not produce because she was a better place in which to produce them, but because she had artificially created a position whereby she controlled certain key industries or certain things
    1914
    which were essential for our maintenance in peace and in war? Mr. Chamberlain was absolutely right when he warned us of the danger. What did his opponents say? They said: "We are all right in this country. There is no danger. Peace is assured. We have Free Trade." War has come upon us, and it is for us to remember that even now this is not a peaceful world. We cannot be certain that foreign nations may not copy the example of our own Labour party by cutting off: certain essential supplies, and for the sake of freeing ourselves from foreign control, and for the Bake of freedom of development as we wish, we must meet our Dominions and decide now and at once to go forward. The matter cannot be put oil We ought to settle it now, because almost all the nations within the next few months will be preparing their budgets and be making fresh trade arrangements, and it will make a great difference if, before the next Budget is brought in, the great Dominions know where we stand on this issue. If we decide to accept the advice of the Liberal party and refuse to work with our Dominions, it will leave them free to be courted by other countries. I do not think that we can afford to run any undue risks. We ought to build up our prosperity and our whole scheme of development not on the basis of these islands, but on the wide basis of the British Empire.
    Major HAYWARD:I am extremely sorry not to answer the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but I really think it was a little unreasonable at this hour to make that appeal. After all, this is a matter of the profoundest importance to hon. Members on this side of the House, and it is a little unreasonable to make a vital and fundamental alteration in the whole of our fiscal policy after a three hours' Debate. There was a speech made by an hon. and gallant Member opposite which interested me very much, because it followed the well-known, the beaten, and well-defined track of the speeches of Coalition Liberals. First of all, he suggested that these preferences are so small or diminutive as to be quite unimportant and innocuous, and, in the second place, that as no additional taxes are imposed, but merely a Preference given on existing taxes, the issue of Free Trade or Protection is not raised at all. This question of Preference can only be of value to the Colonies to the extent that it affords protection to them, and to the extent that it affords protection to them the consumer

    1915
    undoubtedly will have to pay. Practically every Member who has spoken on the other side has used the argument that we should be quite willing to agree to these proposals because of the splendid way in which the Colonies stood by us during the War.
    No argument has been submitted to show whether these proposals in themselves are good or bad. We must assume that they are good, that they are sacrosanct, and must not be criticised. They must not even be examined in detail. If we do so, we are at once told that we have forgotten nothing and have learnt nothing from the War. With engaging modesty, hon. Members opposite, because they stand exactly where they stood before the War, seem to think that they have nothing to learn. On the other hand, because we stand where we did, they say that the War has taught us nothing, and that we still have everything to learn. I wonder why hon. Members opposite can only conceive of Imperial unity and of a desire to assist the Colonies in terms of 2d. on sugar and 33 1–3 per cent on musical instruments. I challenge that position altogether. I deny that I have no appreciation at all of what the Colonies have done. We object to these proposals because we believe that they are the first step towards a complete scheme of Protection and Preference, which we believe will be disastrous for this country, and, being disastrous for this country, will finally be disastrous for the Colonies and the Empire itself. The right hon. Gentleman opposite referred to the history of this question. It commenced with the famous letter of 2nd Novmber, 1918, from the Prime Minister to the Leader of the House. It is very important that this history should be referred to in order that the merits of these proposals may be properly understood. In the letter it states that:
    "If an election on these lines is to take place, I recognise that there must be a statement of policy of such a nature as will retain to the greatest extent possible the support of your followers and of mine."
    And so the bargain was made. That bargain was so skilfully devised as to make free traders believe they had nothing to fear and tariff reformers believe they had everything to hope for. It is really very difficult indeed to believe that the Prime Minister's supporters who had hitherto shown uncompromising hostility to these proposals, suddenly become converted in heart and mind on the 2nd November,
    1916
    1918. I am not referring to these matters in order to charge Coalition Liberals with either inconsistency or anything else. If they think that the maintenance of the Coalition is of more importance than the maintenance of Free Trade, that, of course, is their affair. But this bargain does throw considerable light upon the quality and the merits of these proposals. They are not proposals framed by men having common convictions, common purposes, and a common policy. They are not proposals decided upon the merits of the case. They are proposals decided, as the letter indicates. in order to secure to the greatest extent possible the support of the followers of the Leader of the House and the Prime Minister. Is it not obvious that proposals brought in on those lines, not in order to find the beet solution of this problem but to secure the greatest amount of electoral support—is it not very obvious that proposals brought in under those circumstances can never be very happy in their results? It has been stated again and again that these proposals have been demanded time and time again at the Imperial War Conference. In introducing his Budget resolutions the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that what he was doing was giving effect and assent to the declarations of the Imperial War Cabinet and the Imperial War Conference two years ago. I am very loth to contradict him. But I am really unable to ascertain whether that is an accurate statement of the position or not, because, as I read the Resolution which was passed at the Imperial War Conference on the occasion to which he refers, and which says:
    "The time has arrived when all possible encouragement should be given to the development of Imperial resources, and especially to making the Empire independent of other countries in respect of food supplies, raw materials, and essential industries. With these objects in view this Conference expresses itself in favour of: (1) The principle that each part of the Empire, having due regard to the interests of our Allies, shall give specially favourable treatment and facilities to the produce and manufactures of other parts of the Empire"—
    That is not at all the proposal which is being made here. There is nothing either modest or innocuous or limited to existing duties about the Resolution passed at the Imperial War Conference. The Resolution, as the House will observe, goes the whole way. It covers food, raw materials, and manufactured articles, and of course nothing less than that will satisfy the Dominions. Why, indeed, should it?

    1917
    Anything less than that would be a merely truncated proposal, which, as has already been said, gives a preference to one part of the Empire and does not give a preference to another. It is quite clear that these proposals as they stand do not carry out the desire expressed at the Colonial Conference, and are not what the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Undersecretary for the Colonies called the coping-stone of the proposal. They are the foundation-stone, and upon that foundation-stone they desire later to build the whole edifice, and put on the real coping-stone. And it is because we "believe that that is what will be carried out that we oppose these proposals. There was a very curious coincidence in the Debate on the Budget Resolutions. Apart from the Under-Secretary, I think there was only one hon. Member of the House who devoted himself exclusively to these proposals in his speech on that occasion and, of course, like a good believer in Preference, he sounded the Preference note and principle at the beginning of his speech in the most approved style. But he had another claim to distinction. He happened to be the only Member who spoke in that Debate who had an expert and exact knowledge of any particular trade affected by these proposals. In his case it was the sugar industry. He believed in Preference in principle; but when it came to the one thing he did know Something about he was absolutely against it. And why was he opposed to it? Because, in his own words,
    "There is such a thing as fair play, even to a small British industry, and there can only be one result from this. If the West Indies do what they say they are prepared to do, and increase their output until they are able alone to supply the demand of the United Kingdom, then I say there is no British sugar refiner who can stand against that."
    He says these proposals, if carried out, will destroy his industry. So far as I can ascertain, in spite of all that has been said all the expert opinion is against these proposals. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day swept aside trade opinion as being of little value; but, after all, trade opinion is expert opinion, and, as such, should, I think, have some attention paid to it. That is the policy which the House is asked to sanction, and, in order that hon. Members who are free traders may clearly understand what is really involved, I am going to take the liberty of reading two extracts from the Report of the Committee
    1918
    on Commercial and industrial Policy after the War. The first relates to the question of Imperial Preference.
    "It is obvious that any tariff which is to be used to any considerable extent as a means of reciprocating the preferential treatment accorded by the British self-governing Dominions to the Mother Country, and as the basis for a scheme of inter-Imperial Preference could not be limited to manufactured or semi-manufactured commodities, but would have to be extended to a wide range of foodstuffs, and possibly even raw materials."
    Side by side with that let me read another extract from the same Report:
    "In the economic competition after the War, whilst organisation, the granting of credit, and efficient management will be important factors, the controlling factor of all in our opinion will be the ability of the exporting nation to manufacture and export its products cheaply. By this we mean that all elements of high-class production shall be available at bedrock prices without any avoidable addition of imposts, freights or interest charges."
    Before these proposals can be commended to this country these two propositions, both from the same Report, have to be reconciled. For my part, I profoundly believe that they never can be reconciled, and that to the extent to which you give way on the position of Preference you are bound to undermine other positions, such as the position of obtaining all the necessities of production at bedrock prices; and it is only on the basis of that position that the prosperity of this country can be re-established.
    Mr. HAILWOOD:We have listened to a great many speeches from the other side, but I am convinced that there are many points that have not yet been answered. An hon. Member opposite said that if a preference of twopence were given on Indian tea the consumer would have to pay. I fail to see what process of reasoning induced him to make a statement of that sort. There is one point, however, that I wish to bring out clearly, namely, the terms of the Amendment which has been proposed by hon. Members opposite. They propose to leave out certain words from Clause 7, and that means that they are not in favour of calling this a preference on Empire products. But I have not yet heard from any hon. Member opposite that they are prepared to re-impose the extra twopence on Indian tea. I do not know that any of them are desirous of going before a working-class constituency and advocating that another twopence should be placed on Indian tea
    An HON. MEMBER: We advocate abolition of the whole tax.
    Mr. HAILWOOD: The Amendment before the House is to leave out certain words at the commencement of Clause 7, namely, the words "With a view to conferring a Preference in the case of Empire products." In other words, hon. Gentlemen opposite are prepared to leave the taxation as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has introduced it, provided it is not called Imperial Preference, and the whole position seems to turn upon the point that it must on no account be called Imperial Preference. It has been said that it is of no advantage whatever to India. In fact, the Mover of the Amendment applied to it, I believe, the terms "fantastic" and "fallacious," and various other epithets, and he said that it would be of no advantage whatever to our Indian Empire. The Mover and the Seconder reminded me of two gentlemen trying to play the part of the title of one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much Ado about Nothing." They endeavoured to show that the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would in no wise benefit our Colonies and yet they forgot that our Colonies from time to time have asked this country to give them a Preference. All our Dominions and Colonies have asked us in the past to give this preference. I am sure that those people who call themselves
    free traders in no wise are true to their opinions, because we cannot have Free Trade in future if there is to be any industry that needs protection, and if we are prepared to concede that there is a single-industry that needs protection, it is against Free Trade, and as such they cease to be free traders. They are so fond of these old shibboleths of the past they cannot get away from them. It was a pitiable spectacle to see an hon. Member coming down and telling us here that he fought as a Coalition candidate, and then that he-was going to oppose the first introduction of Imperial Preference. I consider that anyone who contested a seat at the last Election as a Coalition candidate, and' then opposes the first step in the way of Imperial Preference, is committing a fraud on the electorate, and has no right to continue with ideas of that sort. The sooner anyone on this side of the House who holds ideas of that kind passes over and joins the Opposition, the better for the Coalition. With those few words I support the original Clause.
    Question put,
    "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 271; Noes, 52.

    Division No. 65.]

    AYES.

    [7.48 p.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral

    Briggs, Harold

    Croft, Brig.-General Henry Page

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Britton, G. B.

    Dalziel, Sir Davison (Brixton)

    Ainsworth, Captain C.

    Brotherton, Col. Sir E. A.

    Davies, T. (Cirencester)

    Allen, Col. William James

    Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington)

    Amery, Lieut.-Col. L. C. M. S.

    Bruton, Sir J.

    Dawes, J. A.

    Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Col. A. L. H.

    Dixon, Captain H.

    Astbury, Lt.-Com. F. W.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Dockrell, Sir M.

    Atkey, A. R.

    Burdon, Colonel Rowland

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Bagley, Captain E. A.

    Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes

    Duncannon, Viscount

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Burn, Colonel C. R. (Torquay)

    Du Pre, Colonel W. B.

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Butcher, Sir J. G.

    Edgar, Clifford

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Campbell, J. G. D.

    Elliot, Capt. W. E. (Lanark)

    Balfour, Sir Robert (Partick)

    Campion, Col. W. R

    Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Isingtn., W.)

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

    Eyres-Monsell, Commander

    Barrand, A. R.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

    Falcon, Captain M,

    Beauchamp, Sir Edward

    Cayzer, Major H. R.

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Beck, Arthur Cecil

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Oxford Univ.)

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Birm., W.)

    FitzRoy, Capt. Hon. Edward A.

    Bellairs, Com. Carlyon W.

    Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

    Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

    Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth)

    Cheyne, Sir William Watson

    Forestier-Walker. L.

    Benn, Com. Ian Hamilton (Greenwich)

    Child, Brig.-Gen. Sir Hill

    Foxcroft, Captain C.

    Bentinck, Lt.-Col. Lord H. Cavendish-

    Clough, R.

    France, Gerald Ashburner

    Betterton, H. B.

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Ganzoni, Captain F. C.

    Bigland, Alfred

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Gardiner, J. (Perth)

    Blades, Sir George R.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Gardner, E. (Berks, Windsor)

    Blair, Major Reginald

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Basingstoke)

    Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

    Colvin, Brigadier-General R. B.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Boles, Lieut-Col. D. F.

    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

    Glyn, Major R.

    Bowles, Col. H. F.

    Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

    Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir E. A.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. W. E.

    Cory, Sir James Herbert (Cardiff)

    Gray, Major E.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Courthope, Major George Loyd

    Greame, Major P. Lloyd-

    Brackenbury, Col. H. L,

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Univ.)

    Greene, Lt.-Col. W. (Hackney, N.)

    Brassey, H. L. C.

    Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

    Greig, Colonel James William

    Breese, Major C. E.

    Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, Mid.)

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Bridgeman, William Clive

    Cralk, Right Hon. Sir Henry

    Griggs, Sir Peter

    Gritten, W G. Howard

    Maddocks, Henry

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone)

    Guinness, Lt-Col. Hon. W. E. (B. St. E.)

    Manville, Edward

    Seddon, J. A.

    Hacking, Captain D. H.

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Hailwood, A.

    Meysey-Thompson, Lt.-Col. E. C.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T., W.)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir Fred (Dulwich)

    Mildmay, Col. Rt. Hon. Francis B.

    Smith, Harold (Warrington)

    Hallas, E.

    Mitchell, William Lane-

    Smithers, Alfred W.

    Hambro, Angus Valdemar

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

    Stanier, Capt. Sir Beville

    Hanson, Sir Charles

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds.)

    Morison, T. B. (Inverness)

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Harris, Sir H. P. (Paddington, S.)

    Mount, William Arthur

    Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

    Haslam, Lewis

    Murchison, C. K.

    Stewart, Gershom

    Henderson, Major V. L,

    Murray, Hon. G. (St. Rollox)

    Strauss, Edward Anthony

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Murray, John (Leeds, W.)

    Sugden, W. H.

    Herbert, Denniss (Hertford)

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Surcees, Brig.-General H. C.

    Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Nelson, R. F. W. R.

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Hilder, Lieut.-Col. F.

    Newman, Major J, (Finchley, M'ddx.)

    Sykes, Sir C. (Huddersfield)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Sir Samuel J. G.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter)

    Taylor, J. (Dumbarton)

    Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

    Newton, Major Harry Kottingham

    Terrell, G. (Chippenham, Wilts.)

    Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

    Nicholson, W. (Petersfield)

    Terrell, Capt. R. (Henley, Oxford)

    Hope, Harry (Stirling)

    Nield, Sir Herbert

    Thomas-Stanford, Charles

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Norton-Griffiths, Lt.-Col. Sir J.

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Horne, Sir Robert (Hillhead)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Tickler, Thomas George

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Parry, Major Thomas Henry

    Townley, Maximilan G.

    Hudson, R. M.

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Hughes, Spencer Leigh

    Peel, Lt.-Col. R. F. (Woodbridge)

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

    Hurd, P. A.

    Perring, William George

    Waring, Major Walter

    Hurst, Major G. B.

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

    Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Warren, Sir Alfred H.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Jodrell, N. P.

    Pratt, John William

    Weston, Col. John W.

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

    Pulley, Charles Thornton

    White, Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Purchase, H. G.

    Whitla, Sir William

    Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

    Ramsden, G. T.

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Kellaway, Frederick George

    Randies, Sir John Scurrah

    Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

    Kelly, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

    Willoughby, Lt.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Knights, Capt. H.

    Reid, D. D.

    Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Hold'ness)

    Larmor, Sir J.

    Rendall, Atheistan

    Wilson, Colonel Leslie (Reading)

    Law, A. J. (Rochdale)

    Richardson, Alex. (Gravesend)

    Wilson-Fox, Henry

    Law, Right Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow)

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge and Hyde)

    Lewis, T. A. (Pontypridd, Glam.)

    Robinson, T. (Stretford, Lancs.)

    Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Lloyd, George Butler

    Rodger, A. K.

    Woolcock, W. J. U.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Rogers, Sir Hallewell

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Lorden, John William

    Roundell, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.

    Yeo, Sir Alfred William

    Lowther, Major. C. (Cumberland, N.)

    Royds, Lt.-Col. Edmund

    Young, Sir F. W. (Swindon)

    Lynn, R. J.

    Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

    Younger, Sir George

    M'Donald, Dr. B. F. P. (Wallasey)

    Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney)

    M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Bosworth)

    Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lord E.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

    Talbot and Captain F. Guest.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Hayward, Major Evan

    Short, A. (Wednesbury)

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hinds, John

    Sitch, C. H.

    Arnold, Sydney

    Holmes, J. S.

    Smith, Capt. A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Benn, Capt. W. (Leith)

    Johnstone, J.

    Smith, W. (Wellingborough)

    Brace, Rt. Hon. William

    Lunn, William

    Spencer, George A.

    Briant, F

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Spoor, B. G.

    Bromfield, W.

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Carter, W. (Mansfield)

    Murray, Dr. D. (Western Isles)

    Tootill, Robert

    Casey, T. W.

    Newbould, A. E.

    Waterson, A. E.

    Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe)

    O'Grady, James

    White, Charles F. (Derby, W.)

    Edwards, C. (Bedwelty)

    Raffan, Peter Wilson

    Wignall, James

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Richards, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Williams, A. (Consett, Durham)

    Glanville, Harold James

    Richardson, R. (Houghton)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W, (Stourbridge)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh)

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Griffiths, T. (Pontypool)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Wood, Major Mackenzie (Aberdeen, C.)

    Guest, J. (Hemsworth, York)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

    Sexton, James

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hartshorn, V.

    Shaw, Tom (Preston)

    Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne,

    Hayday, A.

    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, after the word "protection" ["territory under His Majesty's protection"], to insert the words
    "or is a territory in respect of which a mandate of the League of Nations is exercised by the Government of any part of His Majesty's Dominions."
    8.0 P.M.
    I ought to say a word or two in moving this Amendment. An Amendment appears on the Paper in the name of some hon. Gentlemen opposite, and it is immediately succeeding the Amendment I am now moving. The object of my Amendment is to make it possible to extend the Preference to territory which is mandated to us, if that be found desirable. Such a territory hon. Members opposite appear to think would be a territory under His Majesty's protection. Technically I think that is not so. It would be under the protection of the League of Nations, but mandated to this country, and in order to make the position clear and to enable us to extend the Preference to these mandated territories, I propose the addition of these words. Something, in fact everything, must depend upon the character of the mandate, and in respect of different territories the mandate may not be the same mandate. I think it certainly will not be the same in respect of every territory that is so mandated, whether to this country or to another Power. The terms of these mandates, however, have yet to be exactly decided by the Allied Powers, but certain mandated territories will naturally fall under the administration of the countries to which they are entrusted by the mandate. I take as an example German South-West Africa, which would go to the Union of South Africa and must be worked as an integral part of the system of the Union of South Africa. It would be quite clear that in such a case as that we must not be prevented from extending the Preference to South Africa proper, because the late German South-West Africa is incorporated within the Union and forms part of the Customs and administrative Union of South Africa. I anticipate that there is no reason why we should not extend the Preference to the products of any mandated country. It would not be a Preference, of course, to our citizens in that country and to them only; it would be a Preference, the results of which would inure to the advantage of the inhabitants of the country whoever they were. It may be that the terms of a particular mandate may make it impossible that in such a case there should be a reciprocal Preference to our products entering the mandated territories, but I see no reason to suppose that there will be anything which will prevent our
    1924
    extending the Preference to any territories that were mandated to ourselves or to any portions of the British Empire.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Is not that a matter for the League of Nations to decide, and has my right hon. Friend got that point in his mind?
    ,Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have that entirely in my mind. What we do in respect of a mandated territory must be done by the terms on which we receive the mandate, clearly, but if the terms on which we receive the mandate are, as I have no doubt they will be, compatible with our granting this Preference, then we shall propose to extend the Preference to these mandated territories, and the object of my Amendment is to give us power to do so, but the Committee will of course observe not to take power to do so without the House of Commons having an opportunity to express an opinion upon the individual case if it wishes, because this would be done by Order in Council, which must be laid before each House of Parliament, with opportunity to present an Address to His Majesty by either House within twenty-one days, so that the House of Commons would have the opportunity of considering the inclusion of any of these territories on its merits, and, if they saw fit, of preventing that inclusion.
    Mr. HOGGE: I fancy that my putting down an Amendment on this question has induced the Chancellor of the Exchequer to straighten out his own Bill, because apparently he is taking power to do the contrary of what we suggest in our Amendment next on the Paper, and I take it we may as well have a discussion on both Amendments at once. I do not agree with the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This power is largely governed by an Article of the League of Nations, which, dealing with mandatory powers, says:
    "The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory. Other peoples, especially those of Central Africa"—
    and I take it that this Amendment is put down to cover South-West Africa and New Guinea—
    "are at such a stage that the Mandatory must be responsible for the administration of the territory under conditions which will guarantee freedom of conscience and religion, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, the prohibition of abuses, such as the slave trade, the arms traffic, and the liquor traffic, and the

    1925
    prevention of the establishment of fortifications or military and naval bases and of military training of the natives for other than police purposes and the defence of territory"—
    and then come the significant words—
    "and will also secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other members of the League."
    I do not want to go back on the discussions we have had to-day. I am quite convinced in my own mind that, if you want to sow the seeds of dissension between the nations who are concerned in the conduct and pursuance of the ideal of the League of Nations, the very best method of doing it is to take to ourselves the power to impose upon what are called mandated territories Preference Duties, in which, according to this Covenant, other nations will not secure equal opportunities for their trade and commerce.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Is the hon. Member not labouring under a mistake? There is no proposal here to take power to impose any duty on any mandated territory. The proposal here is to take power to accord in our own market a preference to the products of a mandated territory, which is quite compatible with the Clause in the League of Nations which he has read.
    Mr. HOGGE: What really happens is this. Supposing one of these territories is mandated to us by the League of Nations, we should then, for the purposes of those fiscal arrangements which the right hon. Gentleman is fathering here this afternoon, incorporate that territory as if it were a bit of the Empire entitled to those fiscal arrangements. Is that so or is it not?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should certainly do that if it were compatible with the terms of the mandate, and it is in order that we may be able to do it, if it is compatible with the terms of the mandate, that I move this Amendment.
    Mr. HOGGE: But is he not entirely prejudging the terms of the mandate?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, I am waiting for them. I do not want to prejudge them.
    Mr. HOGGE: It is, at any rate, a declaration to the world—so far as the world can understand our fiscal policy—that, if we get these territories mandated to us, it is our intention to impose the same fiscal system upon them as we are proposing
    1926
    to set up now. Believing that fiscal system to be wrong, believing it to transgress every natural law that I know anything at all about— My right hon. Friend the Chancellor smiles, and I suppose that means that he does not quite know what I mean.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will try not to smile.
    Mr. HOGGE: I should be sorry to deprive my right hon. Friend of that pleasure. But what I mean is simply this— and it is peculiarly valuable in view of the fact that this is going to embrace new territories—the operation of Free Trade throughout this world is as natural a law as the law of the seasons, the law of day and night, the law of the tides, and any artificial interference with that natural law will bring damage to the people who attempt to make that interference.
    An HON. MEMBER: Natural, but nonexistent.
    Mr. HOGGE:I do not know of any nonexistent natural law. I would remind the Committee that many of these new territories may be undeveloped, territories of enormous potentialities, and territories some of which are not occupied by people of the same blood as ourselves. The second point is this, that the operation of Free Trade is, in my view and in the view of many of us, the best moral guarantee for the preservation of the peace of the world, and my right hon. Friend, by seeking to impose on these mandated territories this trumpery, trivial Protection which he is responsible for in this Bill is sowing the seed of future dissension among the peoples of this world and is promoting war and not peace, and 1 object very strongly to the imposition of this on territories which are in the control not of us as a nation in particular, but of the League of Nations of which we form a part. I cannot conceive of any subject which is likely to prove more dividing among the peoples who form the League than just the bartering of territories which are going to be of commercial value to a particular country, because that is what it means. America, France, and ourselves will want the country that means most to the interests that can push them most in. this House. We have seen enough of profiteering in this House during the War, and I do not want to see the Lobbies of this House filled with deputations pushing us to use our influence to hand over the

    1927
    operation of this system to particular countries, and personally I shall oppose this even to the extent of again dividing in the Lobby. It may be that hon. Members think we are making a mountain out of a mole heap.
    After all, we are a small party in this House, but we are fighting for a big principle, and the big principle we are fighting for is the extension of free Trade. We believe that Free Trade is the only valuable asset that nations have in which they can live at peace with each other. Here you are going to throw into the melting-pot of the world the trade of these new countries which may be mandated to us. You talk about trade following the flag, but there are a great many other things that follow the flag. If the right hon. Gentleman and those associated with him, taking advantage of an artificial political situation, care to place their political future and political reputation at stake in an experiment of this kind, they are welcome to it. It may take us a few weeks, or a few months or a few years, but as soon as we get a clear chance of putting the position before the people of this country, my right hon. Friend opposite and those associated with him will be relegated to the oblivion which they will have rightly deserved.
    Mr. ARNOLD: This Amendment, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, raises most important issues. I do submit that if Preference is to be given at all, the operation of a Preference ought to be confined solely to the territories which really form part of the British Empire. It ought not to be applied to lands which are included within the Empire under a mandate of the League of Nations. Take the Chancellor of the Exchequer's own formula. He has told us to-day that Preference is to be given as a spiritual recognition of a spiritual unity. I think I have got it right. It is a very remarkable phrase, considering that the spiritual recognition is to be purely on a cash basis. What spiritual unity, in the sense in which he used these words, have we got with these territories which may be given to us for a period of time under a mandate of the League of Nations?
    How much have they done for this Empire? How much blood have they shed to bind this Empire together? Not a drop. How much treasure have they spent? Not
    1928
    a penny piece. How much have they put into the pool of spiritual unity? Nothing at all. Judged by the right hon. Gentleman's own test, it breaks down. But, looking at it on wider grounds, because this test of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a ridiculous test, is mutually destructive, and will not bear a moment's reflection. If I may be excused for saying so, I should describe it as quite unworthy of a statesman who sits on that bench. My hon. Friend who has just spoken has quoted Article 19 of the League of Nations, and he has pointed out, I think quite conclusively, that really this power will be quite inconsistent with Article 19. You cannot reconcile a Preference if it is given by this country to one of these new territories which may be brought into the Empire for the time being. You cannot reconcile that in the words
    "equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other members of the League."
    It cannot be done. But I go beyond that, and I come to the third of President Wilson's Fourteen Points. I will read it again because it has a very real bearing on this Amendment. I know it is the fashion on the part of some people to sneer at President Wilson. His terms, be it remembered, formed the basis of the Armistice. The third Point is
    "The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of an equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the Peace and associating themselves for its maintenance."
    I submit that these words are perfectly clear. There is no reservation, or equivocation, or ambiguity about them, and you cannot, if you are going to give a preference to any of these new territories which are mandated to us, say that that is consistent with this article No. 3, to which we put our hand when we signed the Armistice, and to which other nations forming the League of Nations also put their hand. We want, as far as possible, to remove all economic barriers, and here this Government, almost before the ink on the Peace Treaty is dry, is trying to force on the House of Commons measures which are setting up now preferential tariffs going entirely in the wrong direction. This Amendment may have a most wide bearing. After all, if we are to be allowed to do this sort of thing, we cannot expect other nations under the Treaty and under the League of Nations who may have territory mandated to them to be quiet, and not to attempt the same kind of thing

    1929
    themselves. It is perfectly clear that if we are to make preferential arrangements with territories mandated to us, other countries will do precisely the same thing with territories mandated to them. Let me take an extreme example for the purpose of illustration. Supposing, for instance, under an arrangement under the League of Nations Constantinople were mandated to the United States. Then is the United States to be able to make preferential arrangements, reciprocal trade arrangements, with Constantinople to our detriment? If we are allowed to do these things with territory mandated to us, I do not see how we can object to the same right being exercised by the United States with territories mandated to them. I say it is a most dangerous principle.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: We are discussing a question of some importance, and I do not want the hon. Gentleman to be misled by what I have said. If he thinks he is describing the proposition I made to the House he is mistaken. If he is merely developing his idea of what my proposals may lead to, that is arguable, and I have nothing more to say but he must not think that the policy he is developing is the policy I have suggested to the House.
    Mr. ARNOLD: I am perfectly aware that, so far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is concerned, he gives a preference in respect to territories mandated to us, but I am at liberty to argue that if that is going to be done there is no logical reason why there should not be reciprocal arrangements, and I want to stop the whole thing from the start. I see great danger in this Amendment, and if we are going to take power under this Bill to give preference in this way to the territories which may be mandated to us, we are venturing on a very dangerous road. Even if it be the case in the territories themselves that no preference is given. we are at any rate giving them a cash bonus which is an inducement to them to do more trade with us than with other countries. That breaks the principle, and personally I protest against this Amendment. I am sorry so important a question is before the Committee in the dinner hour, and cannot really be discussed as it ought to be.
    Mr. HOLMES: This Amendment is to include in the Bill any territory in respect of which a mandate of the League of Nations is exercised by the Government of any part of His Majosty's Dominions, and that I understand includes German
    1930
    South-West Africa. The result, if this Amendment be accepted, will be that his Majesty, by Order in Council, may direct that German South-West Africa shall be included within the definition of the British Empire, and, being so included, any goods which are sent to this country from German South-West Africa will be entitled to Preference given under the Bill. So far as I can see the result would be that the German merchant and the German of South-West Africa, if he sends goods to this country, would receive a preference over any French merchant in France, or in the French Colonies, and the effect of that is that we give a preference to the Germans.
    Captain BAGLEY: Would not the populations of these territories mandated to us cease to be Germans once they became part of our Empire?
    Mr. HOLMES: I should say to that: once a German always a German. I am only quoting words that have frequently been used by hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite. We have been told this afternoon that we ought to give a preference to our Colonies because of the blood they have shed on our behalf during the War. We are now being asked to give a preference to the Germans, although they are the people in consequence of whom we have lost so much life and treasure. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will explain, on behalf of the Coalition party, why he is giving a preference to the German merchants.
    Captain BAGLEY: It seems to me that the hon. Members who oppose this Amendment take an entirely wrong view of the matter, or at least a greatly distorted view. The Amendment, as I understand it, gives the Chancellor of the Exchequer powers in regard to duties which are to be levied on goods that come into this country, and to reduce those particular duties in regard to goods which come from the territories which are mandated to this country. That is his only power in this respect. The hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench (Mr. Hogge) who first spoke in opposition to this Amendment, declared himself very strongly against imposing a fiscal system upon those territories. This Amendment does nothing of the sort. It imposes no fiscal system upon those territories at all it simply gives us power in regard to our own fiscal system as it affects goods

    1931
    coming from those territories. The hon. Gentleman also opposes this Amendment because he considers Free Trade the best system.
    Let us examine the difference between what would happen with this Amendment, and what would happen without it. If the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer happens to be defeated we shall have a condition of affairs under which he charges a full duty upon goods coming from these territories. If the Amendment be accepted we shall charge a little less duty on those goods—that is to say, we shall be a step nearer Free Trade if the Amendment is carried. Yet hon. Members are opposing the Amendment in the blessed name of Free Trade! The hon. Member (Mr. Arnold) went a little further. He said that if we adopt this particular Amendment, and extend these lower duties to the goods sent by the mandatory territories, other nations will do precisely the same. He was horrified at the spectacle of the other nations of the world, which have territories mandated to them, lowering their tariffs and getting at least a little nearer to Free Trade. The arguments put forward in this connection by hon. Members in the name of Free Trade are very astounding indeed to me. Their thirst to oppose the Government on any and every line of this Budget leads them into some very peculiar positions. This Amendment, so far as I see, gives us power to levy a lower system of Customs Duties on goods coming from territories mandated to us, and, therefore, it is a step nearer to Free Trade than would be the case without the Amendment. I should have imagined that every free trader would have rushed forward to support it.
    Captain BENN: The hon. Member suggests that this Amendment is a step in the direction of Free Trade. It is, as we allege, a stop in the direction of Protection. It is perfectly true that the reduction of any duty is, in itself, a step in the right direction, and in the direction of Free Trade, if it be regarded alone; but when you are imposing tariffs, especially in order to be able to reduce them, for the benefit of certain people, then the promise of preference is in itself an implied promise to keep on the tax. That is the point. In this very Clause to which the hon. Member referred, there is a reference Schedule, in which Schedule there is a whole set of tariff duties, which, I make bold to say,
    1932
    are merely kept on for no other reason than to be taken off in respect of the Colonies and other territories in which preferential treatment is given. So that the hon. Member will see that free traders are not putting their case quite so foolishly as he seems to imagine when they allege that the holding out of these hopes of giving this preference to the Colonies implies that you will keep the wall standing, with a door to go through. That is exactly the case. I do not at all agree that this is a small point. I think it is a very big point indeed.
    It is a point which touches the whole bona fides of this subject, and the intentions of the League of Nations. It is unfortunate that by the accident of debate this matter should come up at a time when most hon. Members are unable to be present. Let me repeat again what I said earlier. We on this side of the House are looking to a new era, an era when there will be a better spirit between the nations in the world, when the League of Nations, which we regard as one of the hopes of civilisation, will become something like a reality. In order, however, to achieve that, we must oppose everything proposed by the Government which tends to separate nations, cause friction, set up divisions, and take us back to the state of pre-war days. It is quite true, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, that this is merely taking power in the Budget to enable us to extend preference to these mandated territories. That is so. But that is the sort of argument used about everything. For the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "A duty on musical boxes— what is it? Surely you are not going to call that a serious diversion into Preference!" But, as the Noble Lord said in one of the Debates in this House, "It is only a 10 per cent. tariff that is suggested; but we have to start somewhere, and on something, and then it will get larger as time goes on." That is the whole essence of the case. Once you start on this course, you will be surrounded by the various interests who hope to get something out of it. This particular Amendment is really a touchstone for the Government as to whether or not the faith of this country in the League of Nations is bond fide and genuine. There are two absolutely different consequences to the whole world. How is the world going to develop now that the War is over? The one is to develop as suggested in the

    1933
    establishment of the League of Nations. The other is that out of our wonderful and unhoped-for success in this War we shall build up a self-contained defensive, protectionist Empire—a model Empire like that which was started by the Germans in 1870. Broadly, that is the proposal. Although you cannot set up any limit of time, this is absolutely the parting of the ways. There are two distinct tendencies, one of which leads in one direction and the other of which leads in the other direction. So far as we are concerned, we intend to try to influence the policy of this country in the direction or peace with the other nations, and in the direction of the League of Nations. That is the reason we have opposed what I cannot help calling the vulgar persecution of foreigners which goes on day by day in this House by question and answer. If somebody has found a man whose grandfather was a German, then—turn him out! If an old lady who has been here for sixty or seventy years is discovered, who was perhaps born in Hanover, then—let her be deported! That sort of thing strikes us as utterly opposed to the spirit of Liberalism, utterly opposed to the principles on which this great Empire has been built up. These are the two claims: Are we going to have an Empire of blood and iron, or are we going to have a League of Nations?
    I want to point out that the success of the British Empire in the past has been built up entirely on the fact that we did not take the lines the Government is now proposing. Why was it that we were able to conquer huge territories in the past? Why did foreign countries look without resentment upon our rule in such places as Egypt? Why did they not object to the extension of our territory in South Africa? Why was it that during the reign of Queen Victoria the British Empire became a vast area covering a large portion of the surface of the globe? It was because the people of other nations said, "All those countries will be open to us, and we can trade in Egypt and other countries, and good luck to the country that opens up new territories on those conditions." Why were we able to extend our territories while the French and the Germans have failed? Because we believed in the open door. It was a door for everybody, and other countries knew that it was not going to be open simply for our own people.
    1934
    That is the point involved here, and I am now touching the question of a real Empire.
    What sort of line are we going to take in the case of the vast new territories that may be mandated to us? Are we going to pursue the old policy of the open door for all, or the new policy, which says, "If I can grab this piece of territory it is for myself and nobody else"? The real, insidious, dangerous enemies of the Empire are those who are trying to erect these barriers because by this means they will produce amongst other nations a real distrust and hatred of the British Empire Take, for example, the Hedjaz. Arabia is a rich and unexplored territory, the development of which will make for the happiness of mankind. The Hedjaz is to be a mandatory territory. Ts it wise for us to set forth that if Arabia is going to be our mandatory territory we are going to incorporate that in the British Empire with a tariff barrier? If we say that it is going to be taken like other territories, and that other countries will be open to trade as freely as us, that will be for the good of them and for the good of us. But suppose we say that it is going to be part of our fiscal entity? Do you not think if that is done people will say, "You are humbugs. You talk about fighting for the liberation of the world from German domination, while all you wanted to do was to grab the world and fit it into your small, self-contained Empire"?
    Mr. HODGE: The Amendment does not say so.
    Captain BENN: The Amendment gives the Government power which I am certain they will use to put these mandated territories into our self-contained Empire, which they are now busy building up on a protective basis. The right hon. Gentleman is a protectionist and he approves of these things. Our conception is absolutely different, and I am more than ever convinced, after hearing the defence of the Government, that we are right in opposing this proposal. I say that by freely announcing our intention of using these territories as a plaything to lead to our advantage commercially, and announcing that we are going to put them inside the wall, we are inviting all the nations of the world to say that we did not enter the League of Nations in good faith. This is in the terms of the Armistice, which was based on President Wilson's Fourteen Points, Point 3 of which said in terms as clear

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    as possible that one of the objects of the countries included in the Armistice was the abolition of economic barriers. The answer given us is that President Wilson has not abolished tariffs in the United States, but that he has increased them. He has not turned America into a Tariff Reform country, and we are the people who are taking the lead. We are continuing in times of peace duties that were imposed for war purposes.
    We were not a Tariff Reform country before, but we are becoming a protected country now. There were duties which were not protective before, but they are protective now. We are the country taking the lead in flouting the third of President Wilson's Fourteen Points. In Article 19 of the Covenant of the League it is specifically stated that there shall be no advantages given as between the signatories of the Covenant in the territories they take over as mandatees. We are now proposing to give them an advantage in order to give us more trade, and we are providing that it shall be with us they shall trade and not with our Allies who signed the Covenant. I think this is a very important point, and it is a challenge to the sincerity of this country in the face of the whole world. What will happen? My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Arnold) spoke about Constantinople. But that is an extreme case. If we are going to do this, surely the other people will do it as well, and then shall we get the commercial advantage we hope to get out of it?
    America will probably have certain territories in Asia Minor, Armenia, and some other territories taken from the Turks, containing valuable trading lines which have never been properly exploited by commerce because of the foul rule of the Turk. What is going to prevent America crowding them into her fiscal system? What would be the position of this country if we say we are going to grab German East and West Africa and New Guinea, and put them into our barrier; and if you do that, how are you going to prevent America saying, "We are going to take Armenia and part of Anatolia, and put them into our barrier." Certain other territories will go to Italy, a highly protectionist country, and how can you prevent them putting their new territory inside the barrier? Instead of having a League of Nations in the true
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    sense, by this policy you get a lot of greedy commercial grabbers trying to exploit these countries for the benefit of their own particular trade. I think we are entitled to ask that somebody should make some defence on this point. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, with his usual courtesy, has explained it, but I submit we have raised points of substance, points which absolutely demand an answer from some supporter or representative of the Government.
    Mr. HOGGE:Surely my hon. Friend proposes to show the usual courtesy in debate. Surely he intends to offer some reply to the various points we have raised. I cannot conceive that the appeal made by my hon. and gallant Friend who spoke last is to be ignored. After all, the Government have to remember that they were very late in the day in putting down their Amendment. An Amendment which raised this very point was put down by my hon. and gallant Friend and myself, and it was not until after we had put it down that the Government discovered there was anything in it. Having had their attention drawn to it they have tried to cover it by an Amendment which we think is entirely against the spirit of the Covenants of the League of Nations. To sit still in the House of Commons and offer no defence in a case like that is surely almost unknown. The Government may treat us with contempt if they like, but they cannot treat with contempt the countries of the world which have entered into the League of Nations. We put the point deliberately that the Government, by means of this Amendment, are conspiring to promote war instead of peace. The explanation given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Amendment was very unsatisfactory, and I again must press for a reply. If one is to be forthcoming, I need say no more.
    Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury): The only reason I did not rise before was that I understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken at some length on this point. Unfortunately I was unable to hear him, but I have followed the Debate very closely since I have been in the House, and I have done so with a good deal of interest. I confess that the point raised by the various speakers, it maybe due to my own stupidity, have failed to carry any force with them. There was, I think, an admirable little speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew some little

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    time before dinner on a previous Amendment in which he said he had been very much struck by the fact that, during the Debate this afternoon, there had been, in his opinion, a certain amount of exaggeration on both sides of the House, and he brought the Debate down to the actual narrow point at issue. In exactly the same way I think, in the speeches I have listened to during the last half-hour, there has been a great amount of exaggeration. The point at issue is a very simple one. My right hon. Friend made a perfectly sound comment when he suggested that the view taken by the speakers went rather far from the actual words of the Amendment. What is it after all? There is no question here in my opinion of Protection. The use of that word is entirely beside the mark. We had a long debate yesterday on the duties put on by Mr. McKenna, and by a very large majority the House decided that those duties should be continued until the 1st May next. The duties which are dealt with in the Government Amendment cannot in any sense be deemed protective, and they are by far the largest duties concerned. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in this Amendment simply proposes that if any areas are committed to us by mandate of the League of Nations they shall be treated in respect of preference in the Home market just as if they were members of our family.
    Hard as I tried to follow the arguments of hon. Members I have not been able to see why the inclusion of these mandatory territories as proposed in the Amendment is wrong. It is not a case of breaking any —well, perhaps, "pledge" is not the right word—but I think the Amendment does not break the spirit of Government by mandate, and I do not see myself how in any way it can make any trouble, difficulty, or even war in this world in the future. We do not know yet in the first place what territories will be mandated or to what country. We do not know either what may be done by the various countries in regard to fiscal arrangements in the mandated areas. It cannot be said that this Amendment commits a mandated country under our charge to any particular fiscal system. There is nothing more in it than to give to any of the articles which are specified in this year's Budget which may be produced in that country the same advantage as is given to similar articles coming from one of our own Dominions.
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    If it is agreed by the League of Nations that mandated territories should go on entirely Free Trade lines in the future, and the various constituent parts of the League of Nations agree to that no doubt we shall fall into line with that, and if the League of Nations agrees that the mandatory territories shall be taken in on such terms as the mandate or chooses in regard to fiscal arrangements, I suppose we shall fall in with that. In the speeches, the eloquent and no doubt sincere speeches which they have delivered, my hon. Friends, I think, are scenting a danger which is nonexistent. I do not think it will ever be existent, but it is certainly non-existent at the moment, and I have every confidence in asking this Committee to endorse the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which merely makes provision in the Budget of this year for the admission of these territories wherever they may be, into the comity of our Commonwealth on the same terms as our own Dominions.
    Captain BENN: May I ask the hon. Gentleman two questions to clear up matters that he did not deal with. What is going to be the policy of the Government in the counsels of the League of Nations in reference to the fiscal arrangements as between the mandated territories and the countries that takeover the mandate? Are we going to attempt to keep these mandated territories really as territories administered in their interests and in the interests of humanity by the country which has taken it on as a sacred trust, or are we going to favour the policy of the fiscal incorporation of those territories in the countries which have the mandate? The second point is, is it the policy of the Government to attempt to foster more lively commerce between this country and the mandated territories that we hold than between those territories and the other countries in the League of Nations? It is a very important point, because if we are going to try to combine our commerce with that of these countries, we shall do so at the expense of their commerce with our fellows in the League of Nations. That is an individual example. The general principle is the point I put first, namely, what is our policy to be in the counsels of the League in reference to the fiscal arrangements made between the mandators and the mandated territories?
    Mr. BALDWIN: I am sure no one in the House knows better than the hon. and

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    gallant Gentleman that no one can answer that question except the head of the Government.
    9.0 P.M.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: Notwithstanding what we have just heard from the Government, attempting to minimise what lies behind the Amendment, in the eyes of the world it will bear a more serious interpretation than the hon. Gentleman has put upon it. I do not speak from the point of view of Preference, because I voted with the Government on their Preference Duties, and I shall do so again with regard to our Colonies and the Empire at large. It seems to me that the question here is not so much one of Preference and Free Trade, but one that affects the good name of this country in its attitude towards the League of Nations and its attitude with regard to the War. We are supposed to have gone into the War with clean hands, desiring no territories and no gain whatever in a material sense. We went in on high principle alone, to safeguard the rights of small nations, and it would be disastrous to our good name if we gave the appearance in any shape or form of having gained something material because of our intervention in the cause of justice. Notwithstanding what we have just heard, if we are to treat mandatory lands as though they were part of the Empire we shall in that sense be false to the high ideals with which we started. I think we all understood that the duty of a mandatory Power was that of a trustee on behalf of the world at large and of the League of Nations. How we as trustees can seek to gain by that trusteeship I fail to see. If the Clause is carried we shall assume that not merely are we trustees for those lands for which we have a mandate, but that they are part and parcel of the British Empire, and if we recognise them as part and parcel of the British Empire we cannot say we have gone into the War and come out without material gain and without having added something to our world estate. The effect would be disastrous on the world at large, and we shall suffer, not from the Preference point of view, but from that of national uprightness as having been false to the high ideals with which we started.
    It has been suggested by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baldwin) that we must leave it to the League of Nations to say
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    what shall be the fiscal system of the country that acts as a mandate towards that country. I think the better part would be for us not to wait for the decision of the League of Nations, but to say, so far as we are concerned, we want neither profit nor gain, that we want nothing whatever from this act of trusteeship, and that, as trustees, we should be the more careful to see that we do not participate in any gain, and how we can say that after we have passed Clauses 5 and 6 I fail to see. We are told we are getting no preference ourselves through this Clause That is true. On the other hand, by giving this preference we hope to increase the trade of these territories with ourselves. Trade is a mutual undertaking, and if we buy more from them they will buy more from us, and, at any rate, indirectly, if not directly, we shall gain. For the sake of being true to the pledges we gave and the understanding on which we entered the War we should see that the Amendment is not accepted and, at any rate, whatever our course may be in the future, we shall not prejudge it, but leave it to the League of Nations to settle, and when they have determined the relationship between the territories which are taken over and the mandatory powers we can frame our policy, but in the meantime let us have clean hands in the matter and not prejudge the question, as we should do by passing the Amendment.
    Mr. HOGGE: I do not want to put the Government into a more awkward position than the temptation that always rises, to one on this side suggests, but really the last reply of my hon. Friend suggests that we have arrived at a period in the discussion of this Bill when we are entitled to have the considered verdict of the Government. These words are inserted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as an afterthought, because they had not occurred to the Government. It is a new and starred Amendment, which was put down last night after the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend and myself had been on the Paper for days, in which a great and potential policy with regard to the peace of the world is outlined. My hon. and gallant Friend took the matter very lightly. He, for instance, stated that we decided the question which Mr. McKenna had decided for all of us in 1915, and all we did yesterday was to carry on a particular policy. Does he remember what Mr. McKenna said? I have his words in front of me with regard to these very

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    taxes which my hon. Friend opposite claims we were only continuing by the vote we gave yesterday. He said:
    "I believe we ought to raise revenue of this kind at the earliest moment daring the War, now, and for the purposes of the War, and not as a general principle, with no intention of continuing the taxes, with no desire to protect trade, and without beginning any new Tariff Reform movement."
    Those were the words and the policy which my hon. and gallant Friend supported, and so did the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and so did the President of the Board of Trade. They all supported that, and that was the point of view they took up, that these things were for the War and for the War only. Now they tell us that any mandated territory that is going to be taken over by us from the League of Nations is going to be directed, in so far as its trade policy is concerned, on the lines of the fiscal system determined by the Government. Hon. Members welcomed the Prime Minister the other day in the most exuberant terms because he had brought back, amongst other things, the League of Nations. The League of Nations says that in these mandatory territories equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of all the other Members of the League shall be obtained. That is in Article 20 of the Covenant. Are we to take it from the Amendment that it is the deliberate and considered policy of the Government that already that part of the Treaty is torn up, that it, is a scrap of paper, and that so far as other nations connected with the League of Nations are concerned, they are not to have equal opportunities for trade and commerce.
    My hon. Friend did not answer the conundrum which was put to him. I will repeat it. Supposing the United States is given Constantinople as a mandatory power. Is Constantinople as a consequence, with regard to the rest of the signatories of the League of Nations to be run on the fiscal system of the United States. If not, why not? The President of the Board of Trade is here. It is a long time since we discussed matters with each other in Edinburgh University, where we used to sit, as we sit now, on opposite sides. He is now the President of the Board of Trade, responsible for the present and the future of the trade of this country. Has he any ideas on the subject? Has he ever thought of it? [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh, but this is an extraordinarily serious question. The President of the Board of Trade is not a busi-
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    ness man he is a professor of anatomy, and therefore accustomed to analyse the human body, and, I suppose, equally capable of analysing the commercial future of the country. Has he ever thought out this question? Did he give the Chancellor of the Exchequer any advice as to the putting down of this Amendment. Did he say, "If this Amendment is carried what is going to happen to British trade?" Other members of the League of Nations are going to get mandatory powers over certain territories. That moans that a great many Britishers are not going to be allowed to trade in those mandatory territories, except with the permission France, Italy, the United States, Belgium, and so on. I do not know how many Allies we had when we finished the War; I know how many we had when we started. At any rate, supposing these mandatory powers are given to our other Allies, is the British trader who bore the brunt of this War to suffer? The Prime Minister assured us that we bore the brunt of the War. There is no use ignoring that fact. Our Allies have done great things in the War, but Great Britain stood the racket. Are the traders of Great Britain going to be locked out of the mandatory territories by our Allies whom we supported during the War by great loans of money? I am quite certain that my hon. Friends will see that this kind of question cannot be disposed of in. the dinner hour of the House of Commons, when there is nobody present.
    Major WARING: Oh!
    Mr. HOGGE: Except my hon. and gallant Friend, who used to represent a Scottish constituency, and who has not made his maiden speech as the representative of an English constituency, and whose Scottish colleagues would be only too glad to hear him on this important occasion.
    Mr. WARING: I have made my maiden speech as an English Member, but it was in the dinner-hour, when my hon. Friend was not here.
    Mr. HOGGE:That is the more reason why he should give me the pleasure, as an old friend, of hearing him once more, during the dinner hour. We are discussing the most important point on the Amendment Paper. The Leader of the House is not here, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here, the Prime Minister is not here. We have the President of the Board of

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    Trade here, but he has not opened his mouth, let alone his box, and yet we are asked to come to a decision. We refuse to do it. We are a small number, but the duty, therefore, becomes more incumbent upon us to put our point the more strenuously and strongly. I do not think we are being treated fairly. This Amendment appears on the Paper for the first time to-day as a starred Amendment. There is one Cabinet Minister present, and one Under-Secretary. Can either of them assure us that that decision has been taken by the Government—that it is a Cabinet decision? If they cannot, we are in this position: that we are discussing a point of policy without knowing the interpretation put upon it by the Government. It is a ridiculous position in which to put the House of Commons. I make an appeal to my right hon. Friend opposite, who has charge of British trade interests all over the world. My right hon. Friend has got himself a great deal of kudos as the defender of the faith in this country in regard to trade, and I would like him to let the House know what is his policy in the mandatory territories, which are not in the hollow of the hand of this country, but are in the hollow of the hands of some of our other Allies. I invite him to give some guidance to the House as to the policy of the Government. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury is quite competent to do it, and I need not apologise for not asking him, because he has not the authority. My right hon. Friend is a member of the Cabinet. He has been specially retained in this country, instead of going to Canada, which is thirsting for his great abilities, which is wanting him as the principal of MacGill University, where, as an Edinburgh graduate and as a colleague of his, I should be glad to see him. He has been kept back in this country as President of the Board of Trade, and I invite him to tell the House what the Government means by this Amendment, and what he is doing to protect our trade interests, before we come to a decision.
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir A. Geddes): My memory goes back for many years, and I seem to remember a speech delivered in almost exactly the same tone, with the same impressiveness, and with the same degree of importance, by my hon. Friend in the old days of the University Union. I should to say, in answer to my hon. Friend's
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    question as to whether this is a Government Amendment, and whether it has been seen by me and others before it appeared on the Paper, that this Amendment was most carefully considered by a full Cabinet in Session, approved, and thereafter put upon the Paper.
    Captain BENN: The War Cabinet?
    Sir A. GEDDES: The Cabinet.
    Mr. HOGGE:May I, as an old friend, ask my right hon. Friend to let us into the secret? If he cannot open his box, surely he can tell us what Cabinet. Does he mean the heads of important State Departments or the War Cabinet? It is very important that the House should know what Cabinet came to this decision.
    Sir A. GEDDES: There was a large number of heads of very important Departments of State present, including myself, when this decision was arrived at. This Amendment makes it possible for the Government, by Order in Council, to extend certain privileges, if I may call them so, to the trade of the mandatory territories, and to the goods coming from the mandatory territories into this country. It does not in any way whatever allow the Government to make any agreement with regard to the movements of trade into or directly out of the United Kingdom. It is purely, therefore, a British question. The reason the Amendment was put down is this: It has become apparent that mandates will probably not all be of the same character. There are certain territories which it appears probably will be mandatory to some State which has been so small in extent, or so bound up geographically, and therefore economically, with existing territories, that it is not un reasonable to expect that permission will be given in the terms of the particular mandate, to the mandatory State, to regard that particular strip of territory, apart from certain conditions which I have indicated, as falling within the economic sphere of some existing Protectorate, or whatever it may be, of the mandatory Power, and in those circumstances there is power under this Clause to permit the Government of the day, without recourse to the complicated procedure of legislation, to give effect to the mandate. It is not asked that any power should De accorded to the Government to go outside the terms of the mandate of the League of Nations. It is not suggested that such a power would be possible, but there may

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    be, and it looks as if there will be, certain areas of territory which will be in the position which I have just described in relation to some larger area, and it is to bring them within the terms that this is desired. The Committee need have no fear in passing this Amendment that it will put any power into the hands of the Government to go against the mandate in any way, but the Government should have this power in order to make administration possible, and for no other reason; and there is the safeguard that any powers granted can only be brought into force by Order in Council, which has to lie upon the Table of the House, and is open therefore to discussion by this House. This suggestion was most carefully considered by the responsible Ministers, and was put down here as a fully considered Government Amendment.
    Sir D. MACLEAN:I have heard a considerable portion of the Debate before leaving the House for the purpose of obtaining some refreshment, and, having heard the two speeches before my intervention in the Debate, it is quite clear, from what I have heard, in addition to what I have been told, that this is an ill-considered Amendment which His Majesty's Government have proposed to put in the Bill, and for this reason. They have not yet, and cannot by the very essence of the position in which all nations at present find themselves, define their policies in regard to these mandatory territories. I have got Article 22 on page 16 of the Treaty of Peace, which is cognate to this question, from which I propose to read a couple of paragraphs:
    "to those colonies and territories which in consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there shall be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples shall form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust shall be embodied in this covenant. The best method of giving effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples shall be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position, can best undertake this responsibility and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as mandatories on behalf of the League. The character of the mandates must differ according to the stage of the development of the country the geographical situation of the territory, its economic condition, and other similar circumstances."
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    It is a matter of acute controversy in this House and throughout the country as to how the Government propose to apply to the peoples who may be placed under our charge in the solemn words which I have just read a principle which is a highly controversial question, and many people of authority, not including myself, but other people of high authority and public experience, consider that it would be a great danger to this country and to the relations between this country and other nations, and would be of no assistance as regards our relations with the Dominions beyond the sea.
    We are on the eve of a great experiment with regard to our own Dominions, and we and our Dominions are certainly not people who are not yet able to stand by themselves in the strenuous conditions of the modern world. We are able to stand by ourselves in those strenuous conditions, and are with confidence able to face the future as it applies to highly-developed communities, and therefore, whatever be the ultimate decision, we do know more or less, so to speak, the responsibilities of the family of nations. That experiment, which we think to be a dangerous one, the Government, in a most light-hearted manner, is asking this House to put into this Bill, and to leave them at their option—the Government of the day to incorporate these untried units in this very risky experiment. Is that a responsible way of dealing with this question? Surely, the least thing we can ask of this Government is: "If you are going to make this experiment, go on and make it with the free portions, the self-governing portions of the British Empire. Do not declare your policy with regard to mandated territories under this League of Nations until you have tested, by some experience and by some well-thought-out plan, how it is likely to work. "The Government would have been well advised not to have placed their own Amendment on the Paper, but to have taken for the purpose of discussion the Amendment standing in the names of three of my hon. Friends and to have said, "We think that, on the whole, the subject is best left alone until we know where we are." That is to say, they might have said to my hon. Friends, "We will not accept your Amendment; we think the Bill as it stands is the safest and best way of dealing with it," and leaving the Bill open without any expression of opinion one way or another.

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    That would have been an attitude which I could have understood and respected, but they have without considering—my right hon. Friend has said that it was -considered by a meeting of the Cabinet. He was not pressed very closely on that, and I do not wish to press him any further to-night, but he just gave a sufficient life of the curtain to enable us to have a glimpse—I will not say of the drama, but of the scene-shifting going on behind, as to what may or may not constitute the Cabinet which, he states, has sat in solemn session on this matter and has come to a solemn, serious, and considered decision. I think what really happened was that a hurried meeting of two or three high officers of State took place, and they said "Here is an Amendment on the Paper which we had better deal with. How had we better do it?" and he said, "Oh, put down an Amendment to rope them all in" That in the way in which it really happened, and here we have, it now. What seems, at first sight, to have been quite a minor point, has developed in the course of the Debate into a point of real and serious importance, and the great charge which we make against the Government on this question is that they have lightly diregarded the solemn words of Article 22 of the Treaty of Peace, and the trusteeship which is placed there, and, for the purpose of avoiding what might have been, as it stood, a rather awkward discussion, they have—and I suppose they will win it —roped in these mandated territories which are unfit to stand by themselves, and laid them open to all the dangers, difficulties, and handicaps of what, placed at its very highest, is a risky experiment.
    Mr. ACLAND: I approach this from rather a different point of view. We have been listening a good deal to-day to pleas on behalf of the Dominions, and it has been pointed out to us that really the whole groundwork and structure of Preference depends, or ought to depend, upon the observance of due gratitude to the Dominions for the wonderful services which they have rendered to us in the War. I and my hon. Friends do not take that view. We think that is a bad sort of bond of Empire. We think the Dominions ought not to be rewarded with sugar plums as if they were children, but ought to be treated as grown-up brothers of ours, who are each allowed to settle their fiscal affairs as best suits themselves
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    without any question of reward for services rendered or anything of that kind. The argument has been made over and over again in this House that it is our duty to give up certain revenue which we should otherwise receive in order to mark our gratitude for the great services the Dominions have rendered. We are to give up 2d. on tea, and so on, in the way we all understand. Then the Amendment of the Government goes on to deal with perfectly different territories altogether—not territories which have in any way assisted us in the War, but territories, some of them, so far as the white populations are concerned, which have done their best to oppose us in the War. I say, frankly, that I am not prepared to assent to an Amendment which deprives us of revenue which we should otherwise receive in duties on the products of those territories. If the plea of Preference is good, it is, I think, on those arguments of rewarding faithful services. Nothing of that kind comes in here. We are merely asked, since these territories are mandated, as the phrase is, to undergo a, certain loss of revenue on tea, sugar, and the other dutiable products which will come from those Dominions. We cannot afford that. There is no earthly reason why we should get a less duty out of tea or sugar sent to us from those territories which are going to be transferred to us by the League of Nations than we arc getting from the territory of any Allied country, or anything of that kind. The argument of gratitude and recognition of the Empire and that sort of thing does not apply, and I do not think that we are, at the present time, nor shall we be even in the near or remote future, in any state in which we ought voluntarily to give up even the small amount of revenue which we should otherwise enjoy from the duties paid on goods coming in from these territories.
    Major McKENZIE WOOD: I attach the greatest importance to this Amendment, because I consider that it raises the whole question of the League of Nations. Some of us are rather of the opinion that a great number of the supporters of the Government, and, indeed, a great number of the members of the Government, are not as whole-heartedly in favour of the League of Nations as they ought to be. Here is an opportunity for this country and for the Government to show what they can do to add to the dignity and the status of the League of

    1949
    Nations. Our fears have had some additional grounds added to them to-night by a remark which fell from one of the hon. Members who sits opposite who spoke earlier in the Debate. He said, "What has the League of Nations got to do with the internal affairs of this country?" [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] Some hon. Gentlemen seem to think that that is a remark which is properly made. Does the House not remember that we have, in the last few days—or Cabinet Ministers have done so on behalf of the nation—set our hands to an instrument which gives the League of Nations power to interfere in certain cases with the internal affairs of this country? The first case which occurs to me is that of the Labour agreement. If we do not, as a country, carry out certain terms which may be laid down for Labour, then the League of Nations is given the power as a League to bring pressure to bear upon us to carry out what we have undertaken to do. There are many instances of the same kind, and it is absurd for anyone who really desires to carry out the idea of the League of Nations in its entirety to turn round and say, "What has the League of Nations got to do with our internal affairs?" Here is an opportunity given us of doing what we can to show that we believe in the idea of the League of Nations. It is said that when we take over these territories we can alter our fiscal arrangements to suit any terms which may be laid down by the League of Nations. But why should we prejudge the case in advance? Why should we lay down a certain fiscal policy for these territories which may be given us, and say that we will impose that fiscal system upon them unless the League of Nations otherwise determine? Is it not much better that we should say that we will make no arrangements in advance with regard to the fiscal system of these new territories, but that we will leave it entirely to the League? It will be impossible for us to say that we have not to some extent tied the hands of the League of Nations if we sketch out our fiscal programme. I feel quite certain that it will do a great deal to show the world that we believe in this idea if we say that territories which may be hereafter handed over to us by the League of Nations will be; taken over on exactly the terms which are laid down by the League of Nations and that we will have nothing ready in advance to bind our Government. If we do that and
    1950
    leave the thing quite clear, we show that we are prepared to do everything which the League asks us to do. J do not think that many hon. Members opposite realise the golden opportunity which is given them here, but I hope the Government even at this last moment will reconsider their decision and withdraw the Amendment.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: I shall only address myself to three points. I have yet to learn that under the League of Nations every country is not at liberty to form its own economic policy. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway seem to have forgotten one salient fact, namely, that there was a General Election last December and that one of the chief planks in the Coalition programme was Preference within the Empire. The majority in this House have been returned on that programme, as will be easily proved to-night if we go to a Division, by the numbers that will go into the Government Lobby. Surely it is part of the duty of a trustee to do the best that lies in his power for those whom he represents, and by no power of imagination could anyone suggest that any damage could be done to any of these territories by giving them something for nothing, by giving them the same preference that we are giving to the Colonies near which they may be situated. Hon. Members above the Gangway seem to see in front of them the bogey of Protection. They fear that it is going to come upon them sooner or later, and it is obviously in their minds. Before the War I was a convinced free trader. The War has altered my opinion. I have not been too old to learn. May I advise my hon. Friends above the Gangway to read the Report of the Committee of Lord Balfour of Burleigh that was formed three years ago of some of the largest business experts in this country. They had before them hundreds of business men in this country to give evidence and they came to two or three definite conclusions. One was that we should have Preference for the Colonies and another was anti-dumping and protection for certain of our industries.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall): The hon. Member is travelling rather beyond the Amendment before the Committee.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: I must apologise if I have transgressed against the Rules of the House, but several hon.

    1951
    Members above the Gangway endeavoured to show that this Amendment was simply camouflage Protection, and I wished to show, in the first place, that it was nothing of the kind, and secondly that even if it were, that
    was the policy laid down by the Leaders of the Opposition when in power.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 195; Noes, 58.

    Division No. 66.]

    AYES.

    [9.44 p.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral

    Gregory, Holman

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James 'Tynte

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Perring, William George

    Ainsworth, Capt. C.

    Griggs, Sir Peter

    Pinkham, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Ailen, Col. William James

    Gritten, W, G. Howard

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Amery, Lieut.-Col. L. C. M. S.

    Guinness, Capt. Hon. R. (Southend)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Astbury, Lt.-Com. F. W.

    Hacking, Captain D. H.

    Pratt, John William

    Atkey, A. R.

    Hailwood, A.

    Prescott, Major W. H.

    Bagley, Captain E. A.

    Hall, Capt. O. B. (Isle of Wight)

    Pulley, Charles Thornton

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. sir Fred. (Dulwich)

    Purchase, H. G.

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Hambro, Angus Valdemar

    Ramsden, G. T.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham)

    Randles, Sir John Scurrah

    Balfour, Sir Robert (partick)

    Haslam, Lewis

    Ratcliffe, Henry Butler

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

    Henderson, Major V. L.

    Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. N.

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Herbert, Denniss (Hartford)

    Reid, D. D.

    Benn, Com. Ian Hamilton (Greenwich)

    Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Richardson, Alex. (Gravesend)

    Betterton, H. B.

    Hilder, Lieutenant-Colonel F.

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Blane, T. A.

    Hinds, John

    Rodger, A. K.

    Boles, Lieut.-Col. D. F.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Sir Samuel J. G.

    Rogers, Sir Hallewell

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Hope, Harry (Stirling)

    Roundell, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. W. E.

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hope, John Deans (Berwick)

    Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney)

    Breese, Major C. E.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

    Bridgeman, William Clive

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Briggs, Harold

    Hudson, R. M.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Britton, G. B.

    Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Smith, Harold (Warrington)

    Brotherton, Col. Sir E. A.

    Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

    Smithers, Alfred W.

    Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham)

    Hurd, P. A.

    Sprot, Colane Sir Alexander

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Col. A. L. H.

    Hurst, Major G. B.

    Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

    Burdon, Colonel Rowland

    Inskip, T. W. H.

    Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Burgoyne, Lt.-Col. Alan Hughes

    Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Campbell, J, G. D.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Stephenson, Colonel H. K,

    Campion, Col. W. R.

    Jodrell, N. P.

    Stewart, Gershom

    Cayzer, Major H, R.

    Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Strauss, Edward Anthony

    Chadwick, R. Burton

    Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

    Sturrock, J. Leng-

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Birm.,W.)

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Sugden, W. H.

    Cheyne, Sir William Watson

    Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

    Surtees, Brig-General H. C.

    Cough, R.

    Knights, Captain H

    Sykes, Sir C. (Huddersfield)

    Coats, Sir Stuart

    Law, A. J. (Rochdale)

    Taylor, J. (Dumbarton)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow)

    Terrell, G. (Chippenham, Wilts.)

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Lloyd, George Butler

    Terrell, Capt. R. (Henley, Oxford)

    Colvin, Brig.-Gen. R. B.

    Locker-Lampson G. (Wood Green)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Lorden, John William

    Townley, Maximilan G.

    Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Courthope, Major George Loyd

    Lynn, R, J.

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

    Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, Mid.)

    Maddocks, Henry

    Waring, Major Walter

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Manville, Edward

    Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

    Croft, Brig.-General Henry Page

    Marriott, John Arthur R.

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Davies, T. (Cirencester)

    Mason, Robert

    Western, Col. John W.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington)

    Mildmay, Col. Rt. Hon. Francis B.

    Wheler, Colonel Granville C. H.

    Dawes, J. A.

    Mitchell, William Lane-

    Whitla, Sir William

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Moles, Thomas

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Edgar, Clifford

    Molson, Major John Elsdale

    Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.

    Willoughby, Lt.-Col. Hon. Claud

    Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.)

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Eyres-Monsell, Commander

    Mosley, Oswald

    Wilson-Fox, Henry

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Murchison, C. K.

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, W.)

    Fell, Sir Arthur

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Wood, Major S. Hill. (High Peak)

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Nelson, R. F. W. R.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Foxcroft, Captain C.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter)

    Young, Sir F. W. (Swindon)

    Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Basingstoke)

    Newton, Major Harry Kottingham

    Younger, Sir George

    Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Cambridge)

    Nicholson, R. (Doncaster)

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Nicholson, W, (Petersfield)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord E.

    Gilmour, Lieut-Colonel John

    Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

    Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward,

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Peel, Lt.-Col. R. F. (Woodbridge)

    Greame, Major P. Lloyd-

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Arnold, Sydney

    Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Benn, Capt. W. (Leith)

    Brace, Rt. Hon. William

    Briant, F.

    Jones, J. (Silvertown)

    Spoor, B. G.

    Bomfield, W.

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Carter, W. (Mansfield)

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Casey, T. W.

    Morgan, Major D. Watts

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe)

    Murray, Dr. D. (Western Isles)

    Tillett, Benjamin

    Davies, Major David (Montgomery Co.)

    Neal, Arthur

    Tootill, Robert

    Edwards, C. (Bedwelty)

    Newbould, A. E.

    Wallace, J.

    Francs, Gerald Ashburner

    Raffan, peter Wilson

    Walsh, S. (Ince, Lanes.)

    Galbraith, Samuel

    Richards, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Waterson, A. E.

    Gange, E. S.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton)

    White, Charles F. (Derby, W.)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh)

    Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Wignall, James

    Guest, J. (Hemsworth, York)

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

    Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

    Sexton, James

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Hancock, John George

    Shaw, Tom (Preston)

    Wood, Major Mackenzie (Aberdeen, C.)

    Hartshorn, V.

    Short, A. (Wednesbury)

    Hayday, A.

    Sitch, C. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

    Hayward, Major Evan

    Smith, Capt. A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Hogge and Mr. Griffiths.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Smith, W. (Wellingborough)

    Johnstone, J.

    Spencer, George A.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Captain BENN: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "such proportion" and insert instead thereof the words
    "at least 50 per cent."
    This is the Sub-section in which it is laid down how it is to be decided whether goods have been manufactured within the British Empire. We think that we have got into a sort of morass in starting to insert scratch tariffs of this kind in this Bill. The Board of Trade, according to this Sub-section, is to decide by regulation how much of a manufactured article has been produced by or is the result of labour within the British Empire, and upon the decision of the Board of Trade will depend whether the article enjoys the benefit of Preference or not. The two points which I wish to raise are these. Firstly, as to secrecy. The Board of Trade will make regulations, and this House and the country will have no control over the matter until we see the regulations in force. If there is anything in the point which I am going to mention as to the difficulty of saying whether an article is an Imperial product or not, these important decisions will have to be made by a Government Department without any control by this House or the country, and will be issued in the form of regulations which, I presume will have the force of law, and upon which it will be impossible to go back. We have had an experience within the last few months of this sort of secret Protection. I do not use the word offensively. I am certain that according to their lights and convictions those who were in charge of the Committee dealing with the restriction of imports acted perfectly bonâ fide. My hon. and gallant Friend opposite was Chairman for some time of that Committee. But from the point of view of the trader the matter has been in a particularly unsatisfactory condition.
    We have restrictions put on and taken off and modified so quickly that it is impossible for anyone to keep pace with them. Now the restrictions have been fixed and the President of the Board of Trade, in answer to a question the other day, produced a document giving a long list of restrictions fixed by this Committee. It is impossible for us to know what were the grounds on which the restrictions were made. The proceedings of the Committee which decided the restrictions were secret. Nothing was promulgated except the decision. The traders of this country, and, what is more important, the Members of this House, who are returned for the purpose of regulating the policy of the country, find themselves face to face with the fait accompli of a printed list which has become the law of the land. The object of this Amendment is to prevent that sort of thing happening. I have another Amendment later on which is intended to give this House some control over the articles which are to enjoy preference, but at the moment I desire, instead of leaving it in the hands of the Board of Trade without control, to say what proportion of labour shall be deemed sufficient to entitle a product to the name of a product of the British Empire.
    I am proposing to insert a definite fraction. I need not say that I do not regard "At least 50 per cent." as having any literal inspiration, but I do think it is reasonable to ask that we should say how much of the goods are to be the product of British labour to entitle them to get preference, and not officials of the Board of Trade over whom, once the Act is passed, we shall have no further control. I beg the Committee to observe that this is not a Free Trade versus Protection argument at all. It is a purely business point which should receive the attention of business men. Is it better that we should

    1955
    decide what proportion of labour entitles a product to be called an Empire product, or is it better that it should be consigned to the judgment of officials of a Government Department acting without any control by this House? I do hope that, although I and those who are associated with me in this Debate have hitherto been fighting the Free Trade battle, it will not prejudice this little Amendment in the eyes of those who differ from us on the wider fiscal question. We have had more than enough of bureaucratic control. There are too many Departments. It is very hard in this House, not so much to reduce the number of Departments as to prevent their increase. We have many, too many, officials, and in this Sub-section we put into the hands of officials a very important power. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and all those who support this Imperial Preference see in it a very great step forward in the consolidation of the Empire. They say that by means of it we are really realising the great dream of those who went before us. If that is so, how important it becomes that we should decide, and not bureaucrats, what, in fact, is the products of the British Empire. It as a point of substance, not a debating point or a Free Trade point, but a business point.
    10.0 P.M.
    I come now to the second argument. What sort of standards are the Board of Trade to use to decide how much labour is labour of the Empire? This is a very interesting question. When you begin to look into it you see how extremely delicate these questions of tariff really are. Let me give an example. Let us suppose that a certain percentage is fixed. Take a man who is going to cut West African mahogany. Suppose that the Board of Trade has decided that 60 per cent. of the labour must be the labour of people within the British Empire. Suppose that the employer puts on black men to hew the mahogany in the forest. When he is exporting the mahogany to this country he may well show that 60 per cent. of the labour involved is the labour of people within the Empire. But suppose a more advanced competitor of his sends to America and gets a sawing machine made by American labour, and imports this sawing machine to cut the mahogany. The cutting process then becomes a mere
    1956
    nothing, and the question does arise, Is that a product of the labour of the Empire or not? It is the sort of question I put to any hon. Member. How would they decide? Then take haulage, which is an important part of trade in getting these things from remote districts to the port. Suppose you get 1,000 niggers to pull the timber along the road, and, as against that, suppose you get an American railway locomotive to haul the thing along, and that that locomotive has been made in America. Are you going to say that the labour of haulage is the labour of the Empire?
    Sir F. BANBURY: It depends upon who drives the engine.
    Captain BENN: I am glad that the hon. Baronet has raised that point, be cause he is chairman of one of the most successful and luxurious of our railway companies. Does he concede that the man who drives the locomotive in his company is the man who really produces all the labour of the company? I think not; I think he regards the directors and other people as having a share. We really get into a field of inquiry which is very wide and very interesting. I will take another simple case. There is the case of Egyptian cigarettes. I understand that the tobacco is grown in Turkey, is imported into Egypt and is there made up into cigarettes to be exported. Some one has to decide how much of the labour in the manufacture of that cigarette is done by Egyptians or people of the British Protectorate. A much more difficult question arises when you come to the Soudan. According to the Bill, a. Protectorate or Dominion gets the benefit of the Bill. Egypt is a Protectorate, but the Government of the Soudan is absolutely independent of the Government of Egypt. It is a condominium between the Protectorate of Egypt and this country. As far as I can see, in this Bill the case of the Soudan is not dealt with.
    The two points I make are these: First of all, the very important point that in determining who is to have the advantage of this, are we to decide in this House or is it to be done by the drawing of a line by someone in the Board of Trade? When the decisions are made, on what basis are you going to decide how much of the article is the product of labour within the Empire?
    Mr. HOGGE: Does my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer

    1957
    expect me to speak first? I rather wanted to listen to the right hon. Gentleman, and then if there was anything to reply to I could then do so and in that way possibly shorten the Debate.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The President of the Board of Trade is going to reply, and if the hon. Member prefers that he should make an immediate reply I am sure he will be willing to do so. I have followed that practice hitherto, but I have not observed that it resulted in the shortening of the Debate, which the hon. Member, I am glad to say, has promised me on this occasion.
    Sir A. GEDDES: At the moment when ray hon. Friend rose I was consulting the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to whether it would not be better to allow the arguments in favour of the Amendment to be somewhat developed before any reply was given. The main point that has been made by the Mover of the Amendment is that under the terms of the Bill, as drafted, this House would have no control whatever over the action of the Board of. Trade, and that, therefore, definitions saying how much of the value of any goods of Colonial origin had to be British would be settled outside the ken of the House altogether. Let me say at once that I quite realise the force of that objection, and I am quite prepared to accept the Amendments which follow, not dealing with this general subject, but those which would make it necessary that any Regulations made by the Board of Trade should be dealt with in the same way as Orders in Council. I think that that is only right, so that I need not answer the point which has been made that this power, if it were left as it now stands, would be exercised outside the ken of the House. I would like to point out that this question of establishing a definite percentage is by no means so easy as it looks. A single percentage which would cover all classes of goods is almost unthinkable. If you have, for example, a raw material of considerable value which it was not possible to grow or to produce within the territory of one of the Dominions, it might be imported into that Dominion as an absolutely unworkable material, with no labour attaching to it except that involved in its primary production, and this raw material of great value might be worked up in the Dominion, and yet, although all the labour in the working up of that
    1958
    particular material was British, if we had such a percentage as 50 per cent. attached to it, it would not be able to secure any preference at all, and yet all the labour involved in that working of the raw material would be British. That, I am sure, was quite obvious to my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, and I am sure that that is what he had in mind when he said he attached no sanctified value to 50 per cent.
    There is something more. There is the case of fixing a single percentage and fixing it low. Let us take the case of some machine of which all the parts might be made in some non-British territory, and if we fix the percentage low the mere assembling of that machine might involve sufficient expenditure within the British Empire to qualify for a preference. Therefore, it seems to me not to be a reasonable suggestion, in fact, that it is a suggestion which would defeat the object of Preference, if we were to fix a single figure and say that everything shall conform to that figure. So we have got to have, it seems to me, more than one figure, a percentage, in fact, applying to each particular class of goods which is affected. Such a figure can only be arrived at fairly, obviously, after elaborate study of the position, and such elaborate study is dearly work for officials to perform; and after it has been worked out by the officials, if we accept, as I am prepared to do, the Amendments which will compel these Regulations to be laid before the House, we shall have what I think is the best working arrangement— that the actual figure should be worked out by the experts, submitted to the House, and then can be defended by the responsible Minister, who would have all the information upon which his experts have worked. There is, however, a further point which I think my hon. Friend did not refer to at all. I am sure that he recognised the importance of it, and that is that where we have got material such as sugar, which is grown in the Empire, but not in sufficient quantities to meet the demands and the needs of the refiners in this country and throughout the Empire, we might have a considerable quantity of Colonial sugar coming in here, West Indian sugar, for example; we might have also a considerable quantity of foreign sugar coming in. If the home manufacturer is to be placed upon a basis of equality with the Overseas Dominion manufacturer, it is quite obvious, I am

    1959
    sure, that there must be in the case of such an article as sugar a comparatively low qualifying percentage for the preference, although the preference itself would only be given upon the actual sugar of British production.
    There are certain further complications which happen to arise in connection with sugar, because the duty upon sugar is based upon polarisation. That is a point of elaboration, however, with which I need not bother the Committee at the moment, but we have here a clear indication that this question of preference percentage is not a thing which can be dealt with here. Wherever we have, as in Subsection (2), a class of goods, clearly we have got to undertake in connection with that class of goods quite an elaborate survey. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will be satisfied that the control of the House will be adequately protected if we agree that the Board of Trade shall make regulations, and those regulations shall be treated as it is contemplated the Orders in Council will treat them under Sub-section (4). If they are dealt with in that way, I hope the Committee will agree that they will have sufficient control over these regulations to make certain that no action is taken behind the back of the House.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: I think both my right hon. Friends will agree that the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. and gallant Friend is one not only of substance but one of real service, that it has induced the President of the Board of Trade, in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to consider the question that is immediately before the Committee in relation to the subsequent Amendment, and I understand, from what he has said, that he is willing to accept the subsequent Amendment standing in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) which will give to this House, by means of Orders which will be laid in due form on the Table of the House, and therefore subject to such debate as Members of the House may see fit to give them either by way of assent or dissent. That is, I will not call it a concession, but I think a very reasonable way of meeting the valuable point which I think has been raised by my hon. and gallant Friend.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It has been called a concession.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: That shows we are not entirely an unsuccessful party in this House, and we are entitled to any congratulations we can get on this occasion. I will only add one comment to what fell from the President of the Board of Trade as generally indicative of what is going to happen under the system which we are now starting, and that is a horrible vista of new officials working out new schedules and studying all the interests affected. Under this small working model we shall have speedily an example of what the large policy which has been foreshadowed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will lead to.
    Mr. HOLMES:Regulations made by the Board of Trade should be submitted to this House for approval; so that while we have left behind Armageddon it shall not be said that we have arrived at ArmaGeddes! Protection in its worst form is in operation in this country, not with the sanction of the House, but simply at the will of the President of the Board of Trade. I do not think that even protectionists, who are keenly anxious that the policy of Protection should be adopted, are satisfied that it should be in existence without any authority from this House and without this House having any right to direct or criticise it. I believe that what every Member of the House of Commons desires is that the House should have full authority over the laws of this country and the manner in which they are carried out; desires that the House should retain its control over the Ministers and their actions. I hope, therefore, that any Regulations that are imposed under this particular Section will be brought up here for the approval of the House, and if the House approves such Regulations and then only, shall they be acted upon.
    Mr. ARNOLD: Before the Debate on this Amendment concludes I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can tell the Committee what the cost is likely to be for the various officials to be set up to do the work under Subsection (3) of the Clause and in the following Clauses? As my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) says, it holds up a vista of a large number of officials entering on a most difficult and intricate work—fiscal and otherwise. Personally, I should much like to know if either the right hon. Gentleman or the President of the Board of

    1961
    Trade has formed any estimates—first, as to the number of new officials required, and, secondly, what the cost of the salaries of these gentlemen, and other expenses, will be? If the right hon. Gentleman is unable to give this information now, will he, if I put a question down, endeavour to give me a reply as nearly as can be of the estimated number and cost?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAINsignified assent.
    Major HAYWARD: There is one point upon which I am a little curious, and I shall be exceedingly glad if I can get some information from the benches opposite. Under Sub-section (2) of the Clause we are discussing it is the Board of Trade who have to decide as to the proportion of labour which is put into the goods and material manufactured in British Possessions and within the Empire. I notice that there is imposed upon the Commissioners of Customs and Excise the duty of deciding whether these particular goods have the proper quota of Colonial labour expended upon them. How are the Commissioners to decide that point? It is a very difficult task to place upon them. I take it the Customs officer will board the vessel on arrival, and then will have to make up his mind and decide this very important point. I should like to know how he is going to decide it from the evidence submitted to him? You are going to impose upon these officials a duty which they will find exceedingly difficult to carry out.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The point the hon. and gallant Member is raising does not really arise on this Amendment. This is a duty which it is not found difficult to discharge in any of the Dominions where Preference exists, and the Commissioners of Customs and Excise are quite satisfied that they can carry it out here and the hon. Member need have no anxiety as to their capacity to do so.
    Amendment negatived.
    Captain BENN: I beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "Council" ["any Order in Council"], to insert the words
    "or regulations."
    This is an Amendment which proposes to make the Regulations which the Board of Trade may draw up to decide what is or what is not an Empire product subject to the same conditions of inspection and revision as Orders in Council. I should
    1962
    like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be perfectly clear as to whether the Regulations will lie on the Table in the same way as an Older in Council?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is all provided for in the Bill.
    Captain BENN: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I assume these Orders in Council are exempt from the operation of the Eleven o' Clock Rule, because that is an important point. In view of the fact that the limited control has been conceded over the decisions of the Board of Trade, I should like to say that I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making a concession which I believe will be in the interests of the scheme which ho proposes.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (4), after the word "is" ["Order is laid before it"], insert the words
    "or the regulations are."
    After the word "Order" ["praying that the Order may be annulled ''] insert the words
    "or regulations."
    After the word "Order" ["may annul the Order"] insert the words
    "or regulation."
    Leave out the word "it" ["and it shall henceforth"], and insert instead thereof the words
    "the Order or regulations."—[Captain Benn."]
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. T. GRIFFITHS: I beg to oppose the adoption of this Clause. It does not matter what arguments have been adduced from this side of the House, they do not seem to have any effect upon the Government in any way. It appears to the Labour party that this Clause is the thin end of the wedge of introducing Protection into this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated in one of his speeches that these duties are apart of a larger policy, and he has, in fact, admitted that they are going to lead to Protection. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will find himself in the same position as one of the leading steel employers found himself in South Wales last week, when I attended a conciliation board meeting. The steel employer has been a great believer in Tariff Reform. I will, if the right

    1963
    hon. Gentleman chooses, give his name. He is chairman of the Steel Board in South Wales, and the position of the steel and tinplate industry, so far as we are concerned in South Wales, is a very serious one to-day—in fact, we have already appointed a commission, of which I am a member, to visit America to find out why that country is able to produce plates at a much lower cost than we can in South Wales. [HON. MEMBERS: "Better work!"] The tinplate industry in South Wales is an export trade. We export all our tinplates to neutral markets. Before you can produce a cheap tinplate you must produce cheap steel, and if you are going to put a tariff on steel imported into South Wales, then it will be impossible for us to manufacture tinplates or galvanised sheets at a rate which will enable us to compete in the neutral markets with the Americans and others who are also producing these articles. Now the chairman of the conciliation board openly declared last week, at the board meeting, that he had been wrong in the past in advocating Tariff Reform.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must bear in mind that, by arrangement, a general discussion took place on the first Amendment to Clause 7, and it was on the general principle of the Clause. While it may be in order on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" to raise these points, yet, as by general agreement the discussion took place on the earlier Amendment, it is not for the convenience of the Committee we should go over the whole ground again.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: I am sorry I failed to convince the other side of the strength of my argument.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: But the arrangement having been made the hon. Gentleman cannot start again because he failed to carry conviction with his arguments.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: I want to oppose this Clause, because it has not boon shown to me what advantage it is going to be to the Colonies. If you are going to give any advantage to the Colonies, you can only give it by taxing raw material and food. You are going to give them no advantage whatever here, because there is really no one but China who is competing with the Colonies as far as tea is concerned, therefore it is going to be a disappointment
    1964
    to the Colonies and a disillusionment. Some hon. Members have suggested that we should do something on behalf of the Colonies for the great sacrifices they have made during the War. If you are going to do something for the Colonies, do something substantial, because there is nothing whatever here which would help them in any way. As you, Sir, did not allow me to develop my argument, I may have an opportunity on another occasion to show the fallacy of the Clause.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I should like to bring forward two reasons why this Clause should be rejected. I make no apology for referring to an aspect of the question of mandates. I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, before he put down the Amendment which has been passed by the Committee to give the right of Preference to the mandatory areas, he consulted the Noble Lord (Lord E. Cecil) and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Barnes), who performed sterling service in getting the principle of the League of Nations accepted by the Peace Conference. This question of mandates is of tremendous importance, and it is one of the principles which the President of the United States has tried to get embodied into the law of nations. The idea of a mandate was not to embody in the Empire as our own possessions these areas over which great powers are to be given to the mandatories. I am not going a bit too far when I say that the introduction of Preference into the mandatory areas is a breach of faith. Our word has not been kept and we have a unique reputation the world over of being a nation that keeps its word. [Interruption.] If hon. Member's had travelled over the world a little more they would know that the word of an Englishman carried great weight. I will proceed no more on this fascinating subject.
    Captain BENN: During the general hubbub, my right hon. Friend and I challenged the decision "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am not responsible for the hubbub.
    Captain BENN: On a point of Order. It is our desire to divide on this Clause. It has always been our desire to divide on the Clause, and we challenged it. If it did not reach your care, I do not know what the remedy is.

    1965
    On and after the first day of September, nineteen hundred and nineteen, the following Excise Duties shall be reduced by one-sixth, that is to say, the Excise Duties payable on tobacco, sugar, molasses, glucose, saccharin and chicory.
    Captain BENN: I beg to move to leave out the word
    "tobacco."
    This Amendment is put down for the purpose of raising the question as to who is to benefit by the putting of an Excise Duty on tobacco. The Customs Duty on tobacco grown in the various parts of the British Empire is to be reduced by a certain amount in order to give a preference on that tobacco sold in this country, and in this Clause the Excise Duty on tobacco manufactured in this country is to be reduced by one-sixth, in order that the home manufacturer shall enjoy the same advantage as the grower of tobacco in various parts of the Empire. I want the right hon. Gentleman to tell us who is going to benefit by the reduction of the Tobacco Duty. Is it going to result in a reduction of the price of tobacco or in the Preference going into the pockets of the manufacturer of the tobacco? We know perfectly well that the great bulk of tobacco is not grown in the British Empire. It is grown outside. Only a certain percentage—the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the figures in his Budget Statement—is grown within the Empire. By giving a preference and reducing the duty on tobacco grown within the Empire, who will get the benefit of the Preference? Our argument is that the Preference will not benefit the consumers of tobacco, and will not even benefit those who grow tobacco in the various parts of the Empire, but, like the reduction of the duty on tea, the benefit will go into the pockets of the shareholders of the tobacco companies. Anyone who is familiar with the history of the country knows that tobacco is controlled by an enormous commercial cartel, who have it in their power to impose their will in the matter of price, and to arrange that the profit shall be diverted in the way that seems best in their own interests. Therefore, I raise this point in order to get some answer from the Government, to make it clear to us that the benefit of this Preference will be felt by the consumers of tobacco in this country, and will not merely result in increased profit to the tobacco trusts, whose profits are already excessive.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I accept the position of the hon. and gallant Member that the whole of this scheme is correlative. But, accepting that, I do not suppose he will suggest that the homo manufacturer or producer should be placed at a disadvantage as compared with the Colonial manufacturer or producer. The object of this Clause is to make corresponding reductions in the Excise to those which have been made for preferential purposes when the produce was manufactured or produced in our Overseas Dominions. My hon. and gallant Friend asks me to tell the House to whose advantage this will be. He will not accept my answer when I give it, but, as he is good enough to wish to have my opinion, I will say that it will be to the advantage of the public. An obiter dictum has been thrown out once or twice in the course of the Debate, and has not been argued—that it is perfectly clear that in the case of tea the whole advantage goes to the shareholders in the companies, and my hon. and gallant Friend is afraid the same thing might happen with tobacco. I have a high authority for saying that he is wrong in that—no less an authority than Mr. Asquith, who considered the preference proposal on tea was a fraud, for, regarded as preference it was equivalent to a reduction in the duty on tea. That is rather a valuable quotation, which hon. Members will be interested to note. It is in Mr. Asquith's Newcastle speech, delivered a week or two before the introduction of the Budget.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that that will happen in the case of tobacco?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, that is what the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested. I suggest that he was wrong in his argument in regard to tea, and accept his suggestion that exactly the same result will follow in the case of tobacco— though I should not like to make myself responsible for that statement.
    Mr. BIGLAND: With regard to the Excise advantage, I am not sure if my hon. and gallant Friend was a Member of the House when Mr. William Redmond made his eloquent speech calling upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day for a preference on tobacco grown in Ireland, but if he was, he will remember that Mr. Redmond then stated that on every acre of tobacco grown in Ireland permanent employment would be afforded for eighteen people, and he

    1967
    pictured the possibility of Ireland growing an enormous quantity of tobacco in the future if a preference was given. This Clause on which this Amendment is moved as regards Excise Duty on tobacco will have a direct influence on giving employment and prosperity to Ireland.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. ARNOLD: I beg to move, to leave out the word
    "sugar."
    First of all, Sir Edwin, I want to put to you a point of Order. I have a new Clause down on the Paper later for the purpose of abolishing the Sugar Duty altogether, as I am opposed to it root and branch. If this present Amendment should be rejected, the effect would be that the Committee would have decided that there is to be an Excise Duty on sugar to the amount of five-sixths of the present duty. I wish to ask whether, if that is so, I should be at liberty later to move the new Clause for abolishing the Sugar Duty altogether, and, if not, whether I can on this Amendment argue the whole case of the Sugar Duty.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I submit that the case of the Sugar Duty ought to be argued in one place, but not in both, and this clearly cannot be the right place to argue it. This merely makes a reduction in the Excise on sugar, which is correlative of the preference which we have already embodied in the Bill. The fact that there is a duty on sugar was settled by Clause I.
    Mr. ARNOLD: The Sugar Duty is not there.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN:No, I beg the hon. Member's pardon; it is not there. I submit that you can either take the Debate on sugar here, though that seems to me a very inconvenient place to take it, or at a later stage. But you cannot have it decided here and then reopen it and debate it again at a later stage of the Bill.
    The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN: That seems to be quite clear. If the hon. Member move the Amendment now on the Paper, the Amendment must be specific. It deals especially with the question of the Preference, and I think that later on, when the new Clause is moved, that that will be the better time to raise the whole question. I will not
    1968
    commit myself to saying more than that that would be the better time. Of course, it is quite clear that now the hon. Member would not be in order in raising the whole question of the Sugar Duty.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: What I understand the hon. Member wants to do is to raise the question of the existence of the Sugar Duty.
    Mr. ARNOLD: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me? I will just explain. All I want to do is to protect the right to have a full discussion later on.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member wants to have a discussion—I am trying to help him, and am not standing in his way. What he said was that he was opposed to the Sugar Duty, and he wanted a discussion as to whether the Sugar Duty ought to be repealed or not.
    Mr. ARNOLDsignified dissent.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That, I submit, would require a new Clause.
    Mr. ARNOLD: I am very much obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There has been a little bit of a misunderstanding. I have a new Clause down, dealing with the whole of the Sugar Duty, and I want to be quite certain that that new Clause will be discussed. I do not want to be faced with what might be a dilemma later on. It might be ruled that as the Committee had decided to set up a Sugar Duty you could not go behind that and argue that it should be abolished. I understand your ruling to be that we can discuss this particular Amendment on the merits, and later on have a full discussion on the operation of the Sugar Duty.
    Sir COURTENAY WARNER: On a point of Order. Reading the Bill, one sees that if sugar is left in here it implies that a duty is levied on sugar. We shall have agreed that the: Sugar Duty shall be reduced by one-sixth, and if the Committee has passed that, I do not see that it is possible for it to go back on that and say there shall be no Sugar Duty.
    Mr. ARNOLD: May I submit that, as a matter of fact, Sir, the ruling you have just given is in accordance with precedent? The view has been taken by the Chair that a minor Amendment of this character can be discussed, and until a certain decision has been come to there must bean opportunity for a fuller discussion later on.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: It must be restricted to the Amendment now before the Committee. You must not go into the whole discussion of the Sugar Duty if it is to be raised at a later stage.
    Mr. ARNOLD:I will confine my remarks to the particular Amendment dealing with the reduction of the Sugar Duty from its present rate to one-sixth. My argument is that this Clause as it stands does mean Protection. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] Evidently that is so, because an hon. Member across the floor confirms it. It is idle to suggest that the preference which will be given on sugar will really be of any relief to the consumer at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, during the Budget Debate, pointed out that only 7 per cent. of our imports on sugar came from Empire sources, and the remainder came from foreign sources. Such being the proportion, it is virtually certain that there could be no reduction in price. Why then should Excise Duty be reduced by one-sixth? The only justification for doing that would be if the total Import Duty were going to be reduced by one-sixth. You are, in fact, making no change as regards the Customs Duty on sugar. Therefore, the effect will be that the consumer will be penalised and certain sugar manufacturers and refiners in this country will be advantaged. It really means a bonus to them at the expense of the taxpayer. That is the effect of this Clause, and I submit that is entirely contrary to what ought to be done. I should very much like to know what the Coalition Liberal Members are going to do about this? They are constantly telling us that they are free traders, but when it comes to the test we find their action very unsatisfactory. I am getting tired of these hon. Members who do everything for Free Trade except vote for it. It is the old tale of a struggle between conscience and coupon, and the coupon wins. When this matter came up some years ago, the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works (Sir A Mond), who was then an ardent free trader and had not developed "Coalitionitis," argued more strongly against any reduction in the Excise Duty than in the Import Duty.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is entitled to move that sugar should be omitted from the various articles to which preference should be given, but he must confine his remarks to giving reasons why sugar should be omitted.
    11.0 P.M.
    Mr. ARNOLD: With great respect, I am arguing that this particular Clause which reduces the Excise Duty on sugar does not operate in the way in which an ordinary reduction of an Excise Duty operates, but operates in a purely protective way, and should therefore be left out of the Clause. I am not arguing the general question at all. There is a matter which requires some explanation, and in regard to which I wish to seek information from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There has been for some years a difference between the Customs Duty on sugar and the Excise Duty on sugar of 2s. 4d. According to what was said by Mr. McKenna in 1915, this difference arose out of the conditions of the Brussels Convention. Speaking in the Debate in 1915, he said:
    "I am, unfortunately, bound by the conditions of the Brussels Convention under which a duty cannot be imposed upon the import of sugar greater than 2s. 6d. in excess of the Excise Duty."
    Mr. McKenna was not quite accurate in that statement, and later on in the Debate the Financial Secretary of that day who had evidently got some further information on the subject, said:
    "The hon. Gentleman opposite —
    He was the First Commissioner of Works, who, as I have said, was then a free trader —
    "said that he thought that we had left the Sugar Convention. We had, but when we left we undertook to continue to adhere to the condition not to give a bounty to home-grown sugar. A bounty was considered to be a duty of 2s. 0¼ d. per cwt. Therefore, we have carefully put on an Excise Duty to conform with that undertaking. If we had not done it, any country abroad, apart from the Convention, would have had the right to say that our home-grown sugar was bounty fed sugar and to penalise our country."
    How does the matter stand now? Does this undertaking, which was given after the Brussels Convention lapsed, that there should not be a greater difference between our Customs and Excise Duty than 2s. 6d. still obtain, because if this Clause is passed the difference between the duties will not be 2s. 4d., as it has been, but 6s. 2⅔d., which obviously is greater than 2s. 6d. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how does this matter stand now. If this undertaking still holds good we are by this Clause contravening it. If this under-

    1971
    taking has lapsed, when did it lapse, and on what conditions? If it has not lapsed the Committee should be told about it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN:I will answer the hon. Member's questions in an order the reverse of that in which he put them. With regard to the Brussels Sugar Convention, the British Government specifically gave notice some time back freeing themselves from the conditions of that Convention. I do not like to speak without more precise information than I have at the moment, but I think that the Brussels Convention has practically ceased to exist. The enemy Powers, as a result of the War, disappeared, France has disengaged herself, and we have disengaged ourselves.
    Mr. ARNOLD: The point is as to the undertaking that was given when we left. When, and. in what conditions did that undertaking lapse?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I can get the information for the hon. Member, I have no doubt.
    Mr. ARNOLD: Has the undertaking lapsed?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes. We have cleared ourselves of all liability and secured a free hand. Having answered his second point I come to the first point which the hon. Member put to me, which was that there ought to be no such reduction in the Excise on home-grown sugar as will correspond with the preference awarded to Colonial sugar. I know that the hon. Member hates Imperial Preference, but the verdict on that point having for the moment gone against him does not even he recognise that it would be absurd to give a preference to the Dominion producer, at the expense of the home producer, and that the least we can do is to give the same reduction to the home producers on Excise as we have given to the Colonial producer on Customs. That is what the Clause proposes to do, and that in effect it does. Obviously, as regards the quarrel which the hon. Member has with Liberal Members on this side of the House it is hardly becoming of me to intervene in these little disagreements between the Liberal party and the Gentleman who seceded from it. As to the proportion in which Liberal opinion is represented, I am reminded that we have no accurate test of how it is represented in the country except the representation in this House.
    Captain BENN: No. By the votes cast.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Having regard to the comparative numbers of the two parties, I cannot help thinking of the twelfth juryman who was unable to agree with his eleven colleagues, and reported to the judge that no one was more anxious for agreement than himself, but he had the misfortune to be associated with eleven very obstinate men.
    Captain BENN:The right hon. Gentleman must remember the hundreds of Free Trade candidates who stood, and who, though not elected, had hundreds of thousands of votes cast for them. My hon. and gallant Friend (Brigadier-General Croft) is another instance of a defeated party. He has a party which he leads into action always undivided, one might almost say indivisible. If the right hon. Gentleman would assist the settlement of this difficult question between sections of the Liberal party by inducing the First Commissioner of Works (Sir A. Mond) to come here and take part in the Debate, he would be relieved of a very delicate task. The point of this Amendment made by my hon. Friend is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer says we are doing something for the home consumer. We are doing nothing for the home consumer. The percentage of sugar is so small that the benefit of this reduction in Excise Duty will not go into the pocket of the consumer at all, but into the pocket of the manufacturer. It is another dole to an interest, as, indeed, the whole scheme of Preference turns out to be. As regards the other point of the Brussels Convention, it is worth knowing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that we had now free hands, and that the statement was received by the House with cheers. It meant that certain foreign countries had resumed their right to penalise our trade with them.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It meant that we had got a liberty which Mr. McKenna regretted we had not got.
    Captain BENN: The facts are these, that whereas there was an agreement by which we secured markets abroad for products in which sugar played a part, owing to this, these countries have resumed the right, of which they had been deprived, to impose more penalties on our trade with them; and this is supposed to be the way of stimulating exports and generally helping the reconstruction of the trade of the

    1973
    country. Although the Amendment is a small one it has been worth while discussing it, if only to bring out these facts.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. ACLAND: I beg to move to leave out the words
    "saccharine and chicory."
    I will try, in putting this Amendment, to put myself in sympathy with the general ideas we have been discussing to-day— namely, that when you have got an article which comes into this country from the Dominions it is perfectly right, if any considerable portion of it comes from the Dominions at a lower rate of Customs Duty to make the corresponding reduction in the excise, so that you should not have an article coming in cheaper from the Dominions because of the preference than it can be produced at under the excise which has to be paid if the article is produced here. That may apply, of course, to tobacco which is grown here and to beet sugar which is grown here, in competition to some extent with sugar from the Dominions, and to molasses. I do not know if it applies to glucose, which we were advised to use by the food Production Department during the War, and which was very nasty. But when it comes to saccharine and chicory, I do not think the general argument on which we have been proceeding to-day applies, because I do not believe any of it does come in from the Dominions, and therefore I do not think there is any necessity to reduce the excise to correspond with the reduced duty at which it is let in. If it can be shown that any considerable proportion of the saccharine or chicory which we import comes into this country from the Dominions, and therefore will have a preference given to it, on the argument on which the Clause is based it is perfectly reasonable to reduce the Excise Duty as well, but if I am right in holding that as a matter of fact no saccharine or chicory come from the Dominions, clearly and admittedly this reduction in the Excise Duty is purely a protection, as giving the British producer a less contribution to the Exchequer in the form of excise than has to be paid on the foreign import in the form of a Customs Duty. It depends on whether I am right or wrong in my statement and argument that as a matter of fact these things arc not and, so far as I can see, are not likely to be imported from the
    1974
    Dominions, and if they are not there is no justification for the reduction in the excise.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In the case of chicory, very small quantities have come in from the Dominions.
    Mr. ACLAND: From Canada?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know where from, but very small quantities indeed. Of course, larger quantities may come in. In the case of saccharine, I do not think any has conic in from the Empire. I believe before the War it all came from Germany and that during the War special arrangements had to be made, whether by way of subsidy or by guarantee of price, I do not know, in order to get it produced here; what future developments may be, I do not know. In these two particular cases I should not imagine there is likely to be a large Empire import under any circumstances, but my own view is that there is not this profound question of principle raised which the right hon. Gentleman sees, but that it is convenient to treat all these duties alike and on a common principle.
    Captain BENN: This is really very important—
    The CHAIRMAN: I think I must point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as I observed at an earlier stage in our proceedings, that it is not competent to go on moving a series of Amendments which are governed by the same arguments—Amendments of diminishing importance.
    Captain BENN: I quite understand you were good enough to indicate that on a certain Amendment we could discuss the whole question of Preference. This is not a question of Preference at all. Here for the first time we have Protection naked and unashamed. It is very small. It is saccharine. It is absolutely a new departure.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: We made it in the case of the 2s. 4d. on sugar.
    Captain BENN:Here we have an Excise Duty reduced and the Customs Duty maintained, and there is no import from the Colonies, so that it is no question of giving preference to the Colonies. This is a sheer case of giving Protection for the first time by a tariff to a certain manufactory in this country. It is pure Protection. The case before was quite different. It

    1975
    was that if the Colonies got the benefit, surely the home manufacturers should get the benefit. It is necessary to point out, especially to those people who profess to be free traders; it is necessary to point out to people who are supporting the other parts of the Budget, because they say it was covered by the letter issued by the two Leaders of the Coalition—and I think itwas—that here we have a case which has nothing whatever to do with the letter of the Leaders of the Coalition or the receipt of the coupon. Here the Committee is proposing to set up a protective tariff for the benefit of one industry, namely, the manufacturers of saccharine. How, then, can the Chancellor of the Exchequer resist the same sort of demand from other industries? We wish to draw attention to this fact and to state here for the first time we have in a Budget passed by the House of Commons a pure protective tariff introduced.
    Sir C. WARNER:I agree with my hon. Friend that this is an exception to the rule, but we who love the principles of Free Trade followed the Prime Minister and pledged ourselves to support him in Colonial Preference. This saccharine, I think, is not part of the Colonial Preference. It is a very little item, but I should like to say for myself that, although I do not think it comes under that category, I repeatedly at election times said, however strongly I was in favour of Free Trade, when there was anything in the fiscal policy which was necessarily introduced to apply entirely to Germany, I was ready to back it up, and this is a case of an industry that was entirely in Germany and founded at great expense in this country, and I do think people who founded that industry when we were in time of trouble ought to have this small subsidy in years to come
    Amendment negatived.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    CLAUSES 9 (Modification of Drawbacks) and 10 (Spirits used in Medical Preparations) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 11.—(Repeal of Excise Duties on Motor Spirit and Motor Spirit Licence Duties.)
    (1) As from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and nineteen, the Excise Duties upon motor spirit made in Great Britain or Ireland, and on the licence to be taken out annually by a manufacturer of motor spirit, shall cease to be chargeable.
    (2) As from the seventeenth day of May, nineteen hundred and nineteen, Sections fifteen and sixteen of the Finance Act, 1916, which relate to Motor Spirit Licence Duty shall cease to have effect.
    Nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the right of any person to obtain a repayment of duty under the said Section fifteen if he claims repayment before the seventeenth day of August, nineteen hundred and nineteen.
    Motion made, and Question proposed.
    "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Captain BENN: I understood from my right hon. Friend (Sir D. Maclean) that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to promise that he would not go further than Clause 10 this evening?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: To go down to Clause 12, so that we might start to-morrow on the Income Tax, which raises as big questions as any in the Bill.
    Mr. ACLAND: I understood differently from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles. But I speak from memory, and if the right hon. Gentleman assures me that he is really certain that he arranged to go down to Clause 12 I, of course, accept it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should not like to lay myself open to a charge of having broken faith with the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean). I do not think I stated the number of the Clause at all. What I said was that I wanted to get down to the Income Tax, to finish with the Customs Bill, so that we may get on to the Income Tax, which raises very big questions, and take that the first thing when we resume. The right hon. Gentleman agreed to that.
    Mr. ACLAND: I quite accept that explanation.
    Mr. ARNOLD:I should like to ask the reason why the right hon. Gentleman proposes to discontinue the tax upon motor spirit. There will be no corresponding excise. Has it been done to bolster up the Scottish shale oil industry, because I believe it to be more or less correct that that industry is in anything but a prosperous condition. I would not say it is dying, but it has not, I think, been very successful of late. The effect of this Clause will be to give a certain amount of filip to that industry! What has been in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter? The Scottish oil industry has also been hit in one of its by-products, wax, which went to Russia. In the Budget Debate the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor also referred to benzol,

    1977
    which, as I understand it, is in exactly the same position for the purpose of this argument as saccharine. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that it was an industry built up during the War and that therefore we must look after it now that the War is over. Benzol may be, but I do not think anyone will argue that saccharine is a key industry.
    If it be necessary to aid benzol on the ground that it is to some extent a key industry, then this is not the right way to do it, because by this Clause you are enriching the private pockets at the public expense. We are opposed to that. This is Protection naked and unashamed, and no amount of Coalition camouflage will cloak it. Take this new oil industry in Derbyshire. Personally, I hope it will be nationalised, but if it is going to be worked by private interests this Clause will mean a distinct advantage to private enterprise at the expense of the consumer. There, again, you get Protection. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us some reasons for dropping the Excise Duty on motor spirit.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I dealt with this subject in my Budget speech, but evidently the hon. Member was not satisfied with my arguments, and I do not think I could satisfy him if I repeated them. The position is that a certain amount of benzol was used before the War as motor spirit, but not being very largely used it was not taxed. It is liable in the terms of the existing Act to the duty. During the War a great benzol production was secured as being vital to our interests in the War. It is undoubted that anybody who examines this industry must conclude that it was of great consequence to the country during the War, because our external supplies were cut off, and we had to develop it. Then the war demand
    1978
    ceased. There were large stocks on Band, and the large capacity for production called for by the need of the Government during the War was developed at the request of the Government.
    If the proposal is not passed it might be used to find a market for these products, and this proposal will help to secure a market and help to secure to us an industry, the need for which the experience in the War has strongly demonstrated. The Scottish shale industry will get the benefit also of this proposal. That is not a very promising industry, but I may suggest that the increase of the oil production to the Empire is one of the most important matters to which we can turn our attention. Oil fuel is a motor force, and the higher the price of coal the more interest we have in getting alternative kinds of fuel for traction, naval purposes, and mercantile ships. It is of vast importance, and we need to do everything we can to increase our supplies. I hope the result of our efforts in regard to oil production will meet with the success we anticipate.
    CLAUSE 12 (Restriction on Delivery of Goods from Bond) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
    And, it being after half past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Twenty-eight minutes before Twelve o' clock

PEACE CELEBRATIONS.
  HOLIDAY.
  HOLIDAY.
  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).
  INCOME TAX (ABATEMENT).
  INCOME TAX (ABATEMENT).
  VICTORY WAR BONDS (LEGACY AND DEATH DUTIES).
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  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
  BREWING PROFITS.
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  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT (TEMPORARY EMPLOYES).
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  TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (PROSECUTION).
  TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (PROSECUTION).
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  FRESH FRUIT (PRICES).
  FRESH FRUIT (PRICES).
  MILK.
  MILK.
  CONSUMERS' COUNCIL.
  CONSUMERS' COUNCIL.
IRELAND.
  COMPULSORY SCHOOL ATTENDANCE.
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  NATIONAL SCHOOLS (CURRICULUM).
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  HOSPITALS (GRANTS).
  HOSPITALS (GRANTS).
  SPEED LIMIT (DUBLIN PROSECUTION).
  SPEED LIMIT (DUBLIN PROSECUTION).
  OUT-OF-WORK DONATION.
  OUT-OF-WORK DONATION.
  RICHBOROUGH (TRAIN FERRY).
  RICHBOROUGH (TRAIN FERRY).
  BATTLE OF JUTLAND (SAILORS' GRAVES).
  BATTLE OF JUTLAND (SAILORS' GRAVES).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (WAGES CLAIM).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (WAGES CLAIM).
DEMOBILISATION.
  YACHT PATROL MEN.
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  GUARANTEE LETTER MEN.
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  TROOPS IN EGYPT.
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  APPLICATIONS FOR RELEASE.
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  TROOPS IN SIBERIA.
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  UNDER-AGE SOLDIERS.
  UNDER-AGE SOLDIERS.
RUSSIA.
  BRITISH TROOPS.
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  SOLDIERS' GRAVES (RELATIVES' VISITS).
  SOLDIERS' GRAVES (RELATIVES' VISITS).
  NON-COMBATANT CORPS (PAY).
  NON-COMBATANT CORPS (PAY).
  WAR DEPARTMENT VESSELS (ENGINEERS' PENSIONS).
  WAR DEPARTMENT VESSELS (ENGINEERS' PENSIONS).
  PRISONERS OF WAR (EXPENSES)
  PRISONERS OF WAR (EXPENSES)
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  EXPERTS.
  EXPERTS.
  LADY SHORTHAND WRITERS (DISMISSALS).
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NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  WOUND GRATUITY.
  WOUND GRATUITY.
  PENSION SCALES.
  PENSION SCALES.
  OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
  OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
  WAR GRATUITIES.
  WAR GRATUITIES.
  AILSA CRAIG MOTOR COMPANY.
  AILSA CRAIG MOTOR COMPANY.
MUNITIONS.
  VICTORIA WORKS, WINCHAM, CHESHIRE.
  VICTORIA WORKS, WINCHAM, CHESHIRE.
  CONTRACTORS' ACCOUNTS.
  CONTRACTORS' ACCOUNTS.
HOUSING.
  NON-MANUAL WORKERS.
  NON-MANUAL WORKERS.
  ARMY HUTS.
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  ACQUISITION OF LAND.
  ACQUISITION OF LAND.
  OLD OAK COMMON SCHEME.
  OLD OAK COMMON SCHEME.
  LAND VALUE DUTIES.
  LAND VALUE DUTIES.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIAN, DALTON-IN-FURNESS.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIAN, DALTON-IN-FURNESS.
  VENEREAL DISEASE (TREATMENT).
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  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS.
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS.
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  PUBLIC CLOCK CHIMES.
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  YOUNG PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT).
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RAILWAY ADMINISTRATION.
  DELAYED MERCHANDISE.
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  GOODS TRAFFIC (DISCRIMINATION).
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TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  IMPORT RESTRICTIONS.
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  BRITISH STEAMERS (LOSSES).
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  TELEGRAPHISTS (MILITARY SERVICE).
  TELEGRAPHISTS (MILITARY SERVICE).
  WAR CHARITIES ACT ("BLIGHTY").
  WAR CHARITIES ACT ("BLIGHTY").

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

THE LORD BISHOP OF BIRMINGHAM.
Henry Russell, Lord Bishop of BIRMINGHAM—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD CHALMERS.
Sir Robert Chalmers, G.C.B., having been created Baron CHALMERS of Northiam in the County of Sussex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

INTESTATE MOVEABLE SUCCESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law for intestate movable succession in Scotland, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

LLANELLY RURAL DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Read 2a.

HOUSING, TOWN PLANNING, ETC., BILL.
House again in Committee (according to Order).
[The EARL OF KINTORE in the Chair.]
Clause 14:
Power to acquire water rights.
14. A local authority or a county council may, notwithstanding anything in section three hundred and twenty-seven or section three hundred and thirty-two of the Public Health Act, 1875, but subject to the provisions of section fifty-two of that Act, be authorised to abstract water from any river, stream, or lake, or the feeders thereof, whether within or without the district of the
342
local authority or the county, for the purpose of affording a water supply for houses provided or to be provided under a scheme made under the Housing Acts, and to do all such acts as may be necessary for affording a water supply to such houses, and to any houses or agricultural holdings that may be deprived of sufficient water supply by reason of such abstraction, in like manner and subject to the like restrictions as they may be authorised to acquire land for the purposes of the scheme:
Provided that no local authority or county council shall be authorised under this section to abstract any water which any local authority, corporation, company, or person are empowered by Act of Parliament to impound, take or use for the purpose of supply within any area, or any water the abstraction of which would, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, injuriously affect the working or management of any canal or inland navigation.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER THE EARL OF ANCASTER moved, at the end of the first paragraph, to insert: "Provided that nothing shall be done hereunder to affect prejudicially the supply of the existing users of such water." The noble Earl said: We have now arrived at what is, perhaps, one of the most important clauses of this important Bill. This clause deals with the question of the water supply of the new houses to be erected. Though we very often read articles and hear speeches on the importance of these new houses being amply supplied with bedrooms and open spaces, and of slums being abolished, all these excellent suggestions sink into insignificance compared with the question of a pure and sufficient water supply. Because, after all, that is an absolute necessity of life; and unfortunately in the past, in dealing with housing, certainly in rural districts, this question has, I think, been sadly neglected.
The Amendment that I propose is one which I sincerely hope the Government will accept. I may be met with the argument that the interests of the users of the existing water supply in villages and small towns are already safeguarded by the clause. I frequently find in Acts of Parliament that there are some very dangerous principles tucked away in provisoes which affect the words in the main part of the clause, and if your Lordships will look at the proviso at the end of this clause you will there find that a different treatment is undoubtedly meted out to any local authority, corporation, company or person which by Act of Parliament can "impound, take, or use for the purpose of supply within any area." That is to say, any local authority, corporation, company,

343
or person which is distributing water is absolutely safeguarded and its supply can in no way be touched. The putting in of that clause, therefore, makes it absolutely certain that different treatment is going to be meted out to private persons and local authorities who in the past, owing to their public spirit and forethought, have made provision for the water supply of their houses.
All of us know very well in country villages, especially in many parts of England, how extremely difficult it is to get a satisfactory supply of water. I know of several villages where the water supply at present is not always pure, and is very inadequate and obtained with the very greatest difficulty. It seems to me that there should be most emphatic words placed in this clause to say that the present users of such water supplies should in no way be prejudiced. It seems rather hard that where local authorities and private persons in the past have arranged for water supplies another local authority—because under this clause one local authority may go into another local authority's area—that such an authority, which has been backward in housing and in providing a water supply, should enjoy their rights at the expense of its neighbour.
My own opinion is that the need for water, even in our existing houses, is likely to increase—perhaps it is because they have not so much beer as they had in the past, and also because there is a great movement on foot to provide proper washing accommodation and baths for the inmates of those houses, although I believe that in this respect a somewhat niggardly supporter in another place did not treat very fairly with the noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill. But there can be no doubt that the need for water is likely to be on the increase rather than to diminish, and it seems most necessary that words safeguarding the interests of the present users should be placed in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 41, at end insert ("Provided that nothing shall be done hereunder to affect prejudicially the supply of the existing users of such water").—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): The noble Earl has stated in an extremely forcible manner an apprehension which must be felt by any person
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who has given attention to this matter, and which certainly was very clearly felt by those who were responsible for the drafting of this Bill and for the language in which its clauses are expressed. Every one likes to feel, of course, that it is vital that the local authority acting under the clause and the Local Government Board in confirming any Order for compulsory acquisition, must consider the case of those who have existing rights to water as just as responsible a charge as the case of those in new houses for whom they must provide supplies. I cannot think that the noble Earl really believes that any one or any authority whose duty it was to administer this Act would ever dream of treating their responsibility to those who at this moment of time have water as less than their responsibility to those for whom water is being provided
I really thought that the words in the clause had made the matter indisputably clear. Let the noble Earl throw his eye over the language of Clause 14. It says—
"A local authority or a county council may, notwithstanding anything in section three hundred and twenty-seven or section three hundred and thirty-two of the Public Health Act, 1875, but subject to the provisions of section fifty-two of that Act, be authorised to abstract water from any river … for the purpose of affording a water supply for houses provided or to be provided under a scheme made under the Housing Acts, and to do all such acts as may be necessary for affording a water supply to such houses—"
I pause there. The effective part of the clause is to enable the local authority to do all acts that may be necessary to afford a water supply to such houses. Observe now the following words—
"and to any houses or agricultural holdings that may be deprived of sufficient water supply by reason of such abstraction."
In other words, the very same language which is used in order to enable the local authority to provide water for the new houses is also used in order to enable them to retain the water which is required for the old houses that may be injured by the abstraction. If I may say so, it really is incredible that the noble Earl should seriously suppose that the local authority is going to rob Peter to pay Paul. After all, those who are responsible in the Government Office that has to supervise the decisions of the local authority are just as deeply concerned with the interests of those who already have a water supply as they are in the cases of new houses.

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I almost think the noble Earl saw some sinister meaning in the proviso. Really no such meaning can or ought to be read into it. The proviso says that no local authority shall be allowed to abstract any water which a corporation is empowered by Act of Parliament to impound. Really, if we had not inserted this proviso I can imagine the chorus of indignation which would have arisen from every quarter in the House. These powers have been given by Parliament to corporations because corporations are bound to provide water to those for whose interests they are responsible. If we had not inserted the proviso we should have had opposition—legitimate opposition—from every corporation in the kingdom.
The only objection to the noble Earl's Amendment is that it protects existing users of water, although they are not at the present time in possession of any statutory rights, and gives them statutory rights. With all respect to the noble Earl's argument, I cannot see any reason for giving statutory rights to persons who at present have no such rights. What we have done is the right, the artistic, and the adequate thing—namely, to lay it down as a canon of conduct to the Government Department which is responsible that it shall be a source of equal anxiety to them to see that water is not removed from those who at the present time enjoy it as to provide water for these new houses. I have carefully considered the subject, and I really think that the apprehensions of the noble Earl are groundless.
LORD SHEFFIELD: I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord, first of all, whither the words "any river, stream, or lake" include springs; because we know that in country districts and villages the bulk of the water provided comes from springs. These springs are the private property of the owner of the land, and he has probably utilised them to provide water for the people living on his property. There is also to be power to provide a sufficient water supply to the new houses, but I take it that in many rural districts there is an insufficient water supply. If you are to take away water and supply it to the new houses, it might be that while the previous people have what I may call a liberal supply of water, for baths and so on, the surplus water you might take from them—if you left them as much as they enjoyed before—might give a very
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insufficient ration to the new people. I want to know whether under this clause it is to be held that the people who had the water before have a sufficient water supply if they have as much as the new people. I cannot help thinking that people who have had their own water—which is their private property and which they have enjoyed; of course there was a surplus as no one will dispute—are entitled to have the full reasonable use of it for their own occupation before any is taken away for the new people.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think there is much force in what the noble Lord has said; but is not the real answer to this kind of question that it must be assumed that those who have the responsibility for dealing with this matter will behave as sensible men? In the first place, you have the popularly-elected members of the local authority. They have a knowledge of the neighbourhood; and I am sure I shall carry the noble Lord with me at least this length when I say that they are very unlikely to wish to divest of his water a man who has taken some care and trouble to provide himself with an adequate supply in order that undue advantages shall be given to people in the new houses.
Take A as the old owner who has provided himself with water rights as a result of considerable care and trouble, and take B as the owner of a new house. I suspect that the local people would say, as between A and B, "We will see that B has enough, but we do not propose to do A any greater injury than we can help." The noble Lord approaches the matter from a different angle from that of the noble Earl, and I think that his apprehension rather re-inforces the general submission would make to the House—namely, that you cannot in dealing with matters of this kind do more than indicate the principle, which we have clearly done, and then leave the administration of it to be carried out by the local authority and by the Government authority in London. However, I will convey in terms the apprehensions which have been expressed by the noble Earl and by the noble Lord, and I will see that they are further examined, though I do not really think that the Amendment can be accepted.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sure we have listened with satisfaction

347
to the assurance given by the noble and learned Lord at the conclusion of his remarks. But, if I may say so, the weak point in his argument seems to be the existence of the proviso. I do not mean to say that the proviso is not a very just and proper one; yet, if you expressly provide that in a certain number of cases the user of the water shall be protected, there is the natural inference that the user of the water in other cases is not to be protected. That is a risky thing to put in an Act of Parliament.
It is true, as the noble and learned Lord has said, that the user of the water has not in many cases a statutory right to his water, but he has quite as good a right because he has always enjoyed it, and he has it by law. To come down and say that certain persons—namely, corporations, companies, or persons who have an Act of Parliament behind them—are to be protected, is almost as much as to say that the same sanctity does not apply to other people, and such an intimation made to a local authority might prejudicially affect the rights of other users. If my noble friend has appreciated the assurance of the noble and learned Lord—which I understand is that he will consider further how far these words protect all the persons who ought to be protected—perhaps that will be sufficient for this stage of the Bill.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: With your Lordships' permission I should like to say another word on this Amendment. I find myself, of course, in a difficult position when it comes to interpreting an Act of Parliament as compared with the noble and learned Lord who has just addressed you. He assures us that people who already provide a water supply for their holdings or houses will be amply safeguarded under the clause as it stands, though he does admit that it deals differently with statutory bodies who have to supply water under an Act of Parliament.
The point I wish to ask is this. The words of the clause are "that may be deprived of sufficient water supply." I am not a law-giver and I do not profess to say how those words are to be interpreted, but I am doubtful on the point. Who is to be the judge of what is a sufficient water supply? A man may put in a water supply for his farms and houses and may take a different view of what is a
348
sufficient supply for the existing houses from that of some rural district council, which has been remiss in building in the past and has had a tight fit when supplying water for the new houses. In addition to that I also believe that, though the noble Earl in charge of the Bill said that the proviso distinctly refers to companies or persons who supply water under Act of Parliament, the clause also says—
"… take or use for the purpose of supply within any area, or any water the abstraction of which would, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, injuriously affect the working or management of any canal or inland navigation."
I am a little doubtful whether these people get their water under Act of Parliament. If you are going, in the proviso, to put in special words to protect those people who manage any canal or inland navigation, I would, if I may, suggest the alteration of my Amendment so that people who have already got the water supply for their holdings and farm houses should be placed in the same category as people who are working or managing a canal or inland navigation, and add my words at the end of the proviso. Considering that the word "sufficient" is the only one in the clause which safeguards the present water supply, I shall, if I get any support, press my Amendment to a Division.
LORD SHEFFIELD: I should like to call the noble and learned Lord's attention to the first point which does not strictly come under the Amendment, though I am sure, as the noble and learned Lord has promised to look into the question, he will not object to my doing so with a view to the Report stage. The provision relates to any local authority, corporation, company, or persons who have taken water by Act of Parliament. A great many parish councils and others have got water supply schemes under Provisional Orders—that is, Acts of Parliaments—but many people sometimes help the parish to save the expense of Provisional Orders, so that it is done by agreement Still, it is done for a public purpose, for the use of the community, and I think it should cover practically any scheme for a public water supply, whether done under an Act of Parliament or in some other way.
As to the other point, will the noble and learned Lord allow me to suggest that the authority in these rural districts is the

349
district council? Now the district council, if they have built new cottages, will think first of their own cottages and get as much water as possible for them and will not be very scrupulous in a large district containing thirty or forty parishes. They will say, "If we have got to be rationed, you must be rationed too, and what is good enough for our new cottages is good enough for you." People who have got their own provision ought to be entitled to a liberal supply of water and only a reasonable surplus should be taken from them for the purposes of the new scheme.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am obliged to the noble Lord. As to the first point he made, that one may add to persons empowered by Act of Parliament persons who, under a recognised scheme, have made such provision, I am disposed to think that it might be very usefully considered, though obviously not at this moment.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: We want everybody included who has a right to water by law.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am coming to that. I cannot deal with all the points at once. I said I was dealing with the first point of the noble Lord. Now I come to the point of the noble Marquess. I am not sure that he was here when I dealt with it.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sorry to say I was not here.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have dealt with it, and, if I may say so, I am really placed in a difficulty because the noble Earl in the last speech he made did not take any notice at all of the submission that I made to the House on the point.
Let me make it again. Under Clause 14 a local authority is authorised to abstract water from any stream for the purpose of new houses. That is their power, and it is expressed in clear language. It is also stated that they may do "such acts as may be necessary for affording a water supply to such houses." These are the only words that give them the power of doing it for the new houses. The clause goes on—
"and to any houses or agricultural holdings that may be deprived of sufficient water supply by reason of such abstraction."
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In other words, the very same language which empowers the local authority to use water for the purposes of the new houses obliges them, or authorises them, to make provision for houses which lose their supply as the result of the abstraction.
It would be impossible as a matter of draughtsmanship—I am sure the noble Lord will take the same view—to do what I see the noble Lord would like to do, if it were possible, namely, to define quantitatively the amount that must be permitted to be reserved in cases of such competition between the old owners and the new houses. The Bill would be infinite which carried out the purpose of the noble Earl. Such things really cannot be done except by using general words. The noble Earl says he does not know what is a sufficient water supply. I can assure him that if he were sitting as a jury or as a member of a local authority, and had the facts argued and discussed before him, a landowner of his experience would know perfectly well what a sufficient supply was. There is none of your Lordships, sitting in any capacity in which he may be called upon to sit and having before him the facts, either proved or admitted, who would be in the slightest doubt on the point. I know of no other way, except by general words, of doing it. The noble Earl suggested that canals were not worked under Acts of Parliament and that, therefore, the cases of the old owners ought to be included in the proviso. I may be quite wrong, but I certainly was of the opinion that canals were operated under Acts of Parliament.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: Do they obtain the water supply under Act of Parliament?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should be very much astonished to hear that they did not. The noble Earl has asked me a question of which I had no notice, but there are many reasons which would surprise me if canals did not do their work under Act of Parliament. There is every desire to do exactly what your Lordships want. There is every desire to see that the old users of water are treated fairly in comparison with the new houses. I think the words that are contained in the clause do most amply secure it, but I hope very much that your Lordships will allow it to be a little further considered, though I do not wish it to be supposed that I have given

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an assurance that any change will be made, because, as at present advised, I do not really think a change is necessary. I will take further opinion and advice from the experts.
THE EARL OF HAREWOOD: I am unwilling to detain the House very long, but I only came in when the noble and learned Lord was making his statement, and I understood him to say that under this clause everybody was protected. Perhaps the House will pardon me if I put an individual case. You take the case of a landowner who, at great expense and trouble to himself, has provided a water supply for a village or small farms on an estate, which is sufficient for that village or farms in present circumstances. In the case of a local authority or a landowner building additional houses in this village, in which case the water supply might not be sufficient, is it open to them to provide a source of water from that which supplies this village? Is that to come under the control of the local authority, or is it not? I should like to have this question answered because it appears to me that a great injustice might be created in the case of a private water supply of a village.
VISCOUNT PEEL: May I ask the noble Earl to repeat that specific question as I could not hear him?
THE EARL OF HAREWOOD: The question I was asking was, What is to happen to the landowner who supplies a village on his property, or a small town, with a water supply constructed entirely at his private expense? Is the local authority to have power to take control of that water supply. How is he protected? In this case the landowner does not hold the water supply under any Act of Parliament, and the only people who are protected are those who obtain their water under an Act of Parliament. I hope that my noble friend will press his Amendment to a Division.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have tried to say before—because it was the same point which the noble Lord made a moment ago—that any person who had made provision for the village himself (and I have borne a considerable part in doing so in my own village) has, as the Bill is drafted at present, this protection—that the local authority are bound, under supervision and control from the Ministry of Health, to
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take such steps as may be necessary to afford a water supply to any houses or agricultural holdings that may be deprived of sufficient water by reason of the abstraction under the terms of this Bill. In the case cited by the noble Earl, suppose the landlord has provided a water supply for the village, and suppose further (for the question involves this) that that water supply is or may be affected by the grant of water to new houses, the authority is bound—it is the duty of the Ministry of Health to see that this obligation is implemented—to see that a sufficient water supply is afforded to all the houses in that village whose supply may be to some extent affected by the new houses. I do not think I can do more than say—I have listened with the greatest care to all the speeches—that such matters shall be considered before the Report stage.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I respond to the noble and learned Lord's invitation to express my opinion as to the extreme difficulty of framing in language the exact ideas that it is necessary to express in an Act of Parliament such as this. That difficulty is well illustrated by what he has just said. It is plain that his reading of the clause and mine are quite different. I read the clause in this way. There is, first of all, a power given to the local authorities to abstract water from rivers, streams, lakes, and feeders, and then they have the general power of doing anything they like to do—"all such acts as may be necessary for affording a water supply"—for the new houses. That would include making a contribution from an existing well. They may do anything they please for the purpose of obtaining this water; and it contemplates that in the course of this operation houses that now enjoy the benefit of a water supply may be prejudiced.
The noble and learned Lord says that in that event the authorities are bound to take the necessary steps to compensate the person who suffers. It is there that I find myself unable to follow him. I see nothing in the clause which compels them to do anything of the kind. All that it does is that it authorises them to do what they think necessary for affording a water supply to new houses, and if houses have been injured there is no power in the person who is injured to apply to the Court for a mandamus directing that the local authority should compensate. There is nothing here but an option. They

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may do it or not. There is nothing in the world to compel them to do anything in the matter.
LORD GISBOROUGH: May I put one more point before your Lordships? Take the case of the landowner who has spent a large sum of money in a water company, obtained an Act of Parliament, and has not only supplied existing houses but is ready and anxious to supply any new houses that are built. Under this clause the local authority could go behind the back of that company and so deprive the company of the extra supply which would enable them to return a dividend on their capital. Is not that the case under this Bill?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I first make an observation in reply to the noble and learned Lord. It is, of course, perfectly true that there is no obligation in this Clause 14. I have tried to make it plain that the language of the clause was precisely the same in form in dealing with the old houses as in dealing with the new. In both there is authorisation; in neither is there compulsion.
LORD BUCKMASTER: The noble and learned Lord used the word "bound."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not quite sure whether I used the word "bound," but I shall be able to read the precise word to-morrow. What I said was that the language of the clause was precisely the same in the case of the new as in the case of the old houses; and that is undoubtedly true. In reference to the question of the noble Lord, I have said before that such landowners as he supposes are not subject to the unimpaired control of local authorities. The local authority can only do these acts with the sanction of the Ministry of Health, and it seems to me that it is most unreasonable, if a case such as was put by the noble Lord and other cases of injustice were brought before the Ministry of Health, to suppose that they would not do the best they could to meet any grievance of the kind.
I am on strong grounds in saying that it is not humanly possible to provide for all these cases by intelligent anticipation within the limits of an Act of Parliament. I have not the least doubt that other members of your Lordships' House could
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suggest half a dozen more cases in which great hardship would follow, but I wish your Lordships to remember that the new houses must have water and that you must define the terms in which they are to be supplied, my suggestion is that it is not possible to do it except in general language.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Power of Local Government Board to assist in preparation of schemes.
16. For the purpose of assisting in the preparation and carrying out of schemes under this Act, the Local Government Board may, with the consent of the Treasury, acquire and hold lands and buildings, erect buildings, and dispose of any lands or buildings so acquired or erected.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE LORD MUIR MACKENZIE had on the Paper three Amendments which were taken together. The noble Lord said: This Amendment is not the product of my own unassisted imagination. It was suggested to me. My attention was called to the very strong representations that were made in another place, as late, I think, as the Third Reading of the Bill, that the Government ought in certain cases to take the responsibility of immediate action, without waiting for the time, prescribed by the Bill, during which schemes might be proposed. The words for dealing with such a case were suggested to me, and I will not take the entire responsibility for those words, but I would submit them to the Government for consideration and ask the House now to give attention to them, and to see whether it is a proper power to give—I think it is—to the Ministry of Health.
I do not know why the Government did not accede to the suggestions that were made so forcibly to them in the other House, but they may have had time since to consider the matter and may be able to tell the House now what view they take of the actual words which I have put down. Your Lordships will see that the general effect is that, in cases where accommodation is imperatively needed, and where there really is means of getting accommodation at once, the Ministry of Health ought to take the responsibility and ought to proceed to action at once and do what is absolutely necessary and what is in fact available. I think that those who fully

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understand the facts upon which this Bill is based know that in some of the districts about London there are many unoccupied houses just now, and that there are, of course, immense demands for them. If power was given to the Ministry of Health at once to put these houses in order they would be able to get tenants immediately. The objection that occurred to me when these words were suggested to me was that it was an interference with the local authority, and certainly I should not wish to suggest anything that would take away from the principle in the Bill of putting these matters upon the local authority. These are, however, very urgent and exceptional cases, and I think that the whole urgency of the problem is so universally recognised that if it should be necessary to make an exception it would be better to do so.
Another objection has been suggested to me, and it is that there is something in the nature of our old friend the Privilege question connected with this, because expense would be incurred under it. I hope that your Lordships will not pay much attention to that objection. It really would be, I think, a case of Privilege going absolutely mad. If that principle were adopted in this case I do not see how the House could ever deal with anything of a practical kind, because almost everything does lead to some expense. I do not think the Privilege objection ought to be raised, and if there is a scintilla of Privilege in the matter I believe there is nothing to prevent the other House, when the Amendment goes down, waiving their Privilege. I submit the Amendment to the Government, and I should be glad to hear from the noble and learned Lord whether he thinks it is advisable to press it.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 32, after ("Act") insert ("or for the purpose of securing the immediate provision of dwelling accommodation in the area of any local authority pending the preparation of a scheme by such authority")
Page 12, line 34, after the second ("buildings") insert ("alter, enlarge, repair, and improve buildings")
Page 12, line 35, at end insert ("and for such purposes the Board may exercise any of the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts in regard to the acquisition and disposal of land and buildings").—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I can see the object which the noble Lord has in his mind, and there is munch to be said in its
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favour, although there is the difficulty of which he has spoken—namely, the difficulty of Privilege. It is a little complicated, but I think I understand the noble Lord's purpose, and he will tell me whether I construe it rightly. Clause 16 empowers the Local Government Board to acquire and hold lands and buildings, to erect buildings, and to dispose of any land and buildings so acquired and erected. One of the objects of the clause was evidently to enable the Local Government Board to conduct experiments in house construction by building novel types of houses, erected in accordance with, it may be, novel methods of construction, perhaps sometimes with the use of novel materials; but it was also contemplated that the Local Government Board might give practical assistance in the carrying out of schemes by building, or arranging for the building, of houses where the local authority experienced any one of those incalculable difficulties which may arise in doing so.
If I understand the Amendment, it is an amplification of the power at present contained in Clause 16. The Amendment, as I understand it, does three things. It makes it clear that the Local Government Board can take action immediately by providing housing accommodation pending the preparation of a scheme by the local authority. In the second place it empowers the Local Government Board not only to erect buildings but also to alter, enlarge, repair, and improve buildings; and in the third place it confers on the Local Government Board the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts. These powers, of course, include the power of compulsory acquisition of land and houses and the power of immediate entry.
Many speeches were made in the House of Commons in the sense of this Amendment, and similar proposals, though they were not carried there, undoubtedly met with a great deal of strong support from different sections of the House; and it is true that in London there are large numbers of unoccupied houses. Every one of your Lordships must be aware of districts in which there are large houses which at the present moment are wasted, and wasted at a time when there is great demand for house accommodation. It is true that the Amendment of the noble Lord would enable the authorities to convert, or experiment in the conversion, of such houses for the purpose of tenements and so forth. The

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noble Lord has pointed out that it may be said technically that this is an Amendment which conflicts with the Privilege of the House of Commons.
The noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, on the second Reading of this Bill, in language almost deprecatory, expressed the hope that the House of Commons would not insist, on a matter of this kind, and on a Bill in relation to which your Lordships have of course special knowledge, upon the objection of Privilege. I have conveyed that view to the proper authorities in the House of Commons, and while, of course, it is not a matter on which it would be right to expect from them, or right that they should give, any definite assurance in relation to any particular Amendment, I am encouraged to suppose that the wish expressed by the noble Marquess will be very carefully considered, and that if there be Amendments which contain points of substance coming from your Lordships on this Bill, but which could be rebutted by the Privilege objection, it is not unlikely that steps will be taken to waive that objection, so that such Amendments may be considered on their merits. At any rate, with the caution which I must, of course, give my noble friend, that no one sitting in this House can give any guarantee as to the views which will be taken by the majority in the House of Commons on a question of this kind—subject to that, I accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, which I think is an improvement on the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendments moved—
Page 12, line 38, leave out ("the local authority") and insert ("a local authority within the meaning of Part III of the principal Act")
Page 12, line 39, leave out ("of the council") and insert ("thereof")
Page 12, lines 39 and 40, leave out ("of the council of such local authority") and insert ("thereof").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
Powers of promoting and assisting public utility societies.
18.—(1) A local authority within the meaning of Part III of the principal Act, or a county
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council, may promote the formation or extension of, or subject to the provisions of this section assist a public utility society, whose objects include the erection, improvement or management of houses for the working classes, and where such a society is desirous of erecting houses for the working classes which, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, are required, and the local authority of the area in which the houses are proposed to be built are unwilling to acquire land with a view to selling or leasing the same to the society, the county council, on the application of the society, may for this purpose acquire land and exercise all the powers of a local authority under the Housing Acts in regard to the acquisition and disposal of land.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "and the provisions of those Acts as to the acquisition of land by local authorities within the meaning of Part III. of the principal Act shall apply accordingly."
The noble and learned Lord said: This is not quite a drafting Amendment, and yet it really is drafting. The latter part of sub-clause (1) of Clause 18 enables the county council to acquire land for the purpose of selling or leasing such land to a public utility society if the minor local authority is unwilling to act. The additional words proposed to be inserted will make it clear that if a county council decides to act in the circumstances proposed it will have the same powers for the acquisition of land for this purpose as the local authority.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 16, after ("land") insert ("and the provisions of those Acts as to the acquisition of land by local authorities within the meaning of Part III of the principal Act shall apply accordingly'').—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19:
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 40, leave out ("from the date").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 20:
Amendments moved—
Page 15, line 24, at beginning insert ("In the case of loans made") and after ("period") insert ("after the passing of this Act")
Page 15, line 27, after ("solely") insert ("may exceed two-thirds but").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 0 as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22:
Amendments moved—
Page 16, line 16, after ("authority") insert ("within the meaning of Part III of the principal Act of the district in which the house is situated")
Page 16, lines 18 and 19, leave out ("of the district in which the house is situated")
Page 16, line 21, leave out ("of") and insert ("for").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 23:
Relaxation of by-laws.
23.—(1) Where in pursuance of a housing scheme to which this section applies new buildings are constructed, or public streets and roads are laid out and constructed, in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Local Government Board, the provisions of any building by-laws shall not apply to the new buildings and new streets carried out in pursuance of the scheme so far as those provisions are inconsistent with the plans and specifications approved by the Local Government Board, and notwithstanding the provisions of any other Act any street laid out and constructed in accordance with such plans and specifications may be taken over and thereafter maintained by the local authority.
(2) Where the Local Government Board have approved plans and specifications which in certain respects are inconsistent with the provisions of any building by-laws which are in force in the district in which the works are to be executed, any proposals for the erection therein of houses and the laying out and construction of new streets which do not form part of a housing scheme to which this section applies may, notwithstanding those provisions, be carried out if the local authority are satisfied that they will involve departures from such provisions only to the like extent as in the case of the plans and specifications so approved, and that where such plans and specifications have been approved subject to any conditions, the like conditions will be complied with in the case of proposals to which this subsection applies:
Provided that in the application of this subsection to the administrative county of London the expression "local authority" means the London County Council with respect to the matters within their jurisdiction and the Common Council of the City of London or the council of a metropolitan borough (as the case may be) with respect to other matters.
(3) The housing schemes to which this section applies are schemes made by a local authority or county council under the Housing Acts, or by a public utility society or housing trust, and approved by the Local Government Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 15, leave out ("carried") and insert ("constructed and laid").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DOWNHAM LORD DOWNHAM moved, towards the

said: This clause contemplates a situation under which the Local Government Board may, as regards the building scheme, dispense with the provisions of the ordinary local by-laws—a very proper power to give to the Local Government Board. But this case may arise—indeed, it has arisen on more than one occasion—that where the local by-laws are dispensed with the local authority may refuse, or at all events may considerably delay, taking over the new roads. That is a matter of very serious inconvenience, and I think that if the Local Government Board sees fit to dispense with the ordinary by-laws of the local authority, in that case the local authority should not have the option but should be bound to take over, in accordance with plans and specifications, any streets or roads that have been properly constructed. They should not have any option in the matter but it should be imposed on them as a liability.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 20, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Lord Downham.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: If the noble Lord is of opinion that in all these cases the duty should be laid upon the local authority to take over these streets, there is no objection on the part of the Government to it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DOWNHAM: I move to add a proviso to subsection (1). Here again I am requested by the London County Council to ask that if the Local Government Board set aside the building by-laws which the London County Council now has to enforce throughout London, they will only do so in consultation with the London County Council. That, I think, my noble friend in charge of the Bill will not object to. After all, we are the power that will have to administer these by-laws, and I can hardly imagine there will be any difference of opinion between us, but at least it would be wise to consult the administrative authority in order that they might at all events know in what cases these building by-laws have been relaxed.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 21, at end insert ("Provided that as regards the Administrative County of London, the Board shall not approve any plans and

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specifications inconsistent with the provisions of any building by-laws in force in the county except after consultation with the London County Council either on the general question of the relaxation of such provisions in connection with housing schemes or a relaxation with respect to any particular scheme").—(Lord Downham.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: I think in the case of the building by-laws in London, if they are altered or superceded in any way, that it is reasonable that the County Council should be consulted, but I would make one reservation if I might on the Amendment, and that is that the Board should have the general duty of consulting the London County Council on the question of the relaxation of by-laws—that is to say, they would indicate the general lines on which they propose to supersede the by-laws.
But I would be very glad if my noble friend would not press the second part of his Amendment in which he wishes a consultation in respect to any particular scheme, because I am advised, if that is done, that there will be considerable delay. The matter will have to be referred to surveyors and it will take some time. At a general consultation there would be indicated the main lines in which the relaxation should take place. I hope that satisfy my noble friend, and if he agrees perhaps he will leave out the last line of his Amendment—namely, "or a relaxation with respect to any particular scheme"—and also the word "either" ["with the London County Council either"]. Subject to that I accept it.
LORD DOWNHAM: I cannot agree with my noble friend that it would cause delay, but as my noble friend has met me in accepting the larger part of the Amendment I do not press the addition.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I personally have no objection to this Amendment, but I should be very sorry if the Government were to extend it under pressure beyond the administrative county of London. It is quite true that the administrative county of London stands in a very special position, and perhaps it is right to take the course proposed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is only as regards London.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should regret if it were extended beyond the county of London.
On Question, Amendment (as amended on the suggestion of Viscount PEEL) agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 24, leave out ("which are").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "local authority" ["if the local authority are satisfied that they will involve"] and to insert "Local Government Board." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is a very simple one. Under the second subsection ordinary persons—private individuals or others—who build in the same place as the local authority whose by-laws have been dispensed with under the first subsection of the clause are allowed to take advantage of the relaxation. That is evidently fair. If the by-laws are relaxed in a particular place in favour of a local authority the relaxation ought to extend to everybody else building in the same place. But the difficulty arises as to who is to judge whether the particular variation from the by-law is the same in the two cases; and, as the Bill is drawn, it is the local authorities themselves who are to decide whether that is the case.
In a great number of cases—I will not say by any means in all—the relaxation of the by-law under sub-section (1) will not be very welcome to the local authority. The local authority have their own ideas on by-laws. Many of them are very good, but many of them are exceedingly inconvenient and unreasonable. Those by-laws will be overridden under the first subsection, then it will become a question under subsection (2) whether the person who is attempting to take advantage of the relaxation is doing so or not, and the appeal lies not to an independent authority but to the very local authority whose bylaws are over-ridden. That is not likely to lead to an equitable and a just result. And therefore, instead of the local authority being the persons to whom the appeal should lie, the appeal should lie to the Local Government Board. When I say the Local Government Board—or the Ministry of Health, as it will be now—I do not of course mean the Local Government Board in London but their representative in the area in question. As your Lordships know, every area is to have a Commissioner to represent them and to

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carry out this Housing Bill, and he would evidently be the person upon whom the responsibility would lie to decide in case of difference whether the relaxation in question was being properly availed of by the ordinary person, or whether he was not going beyond the relaxation granted to the local authority under the first subsection.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 29, leave out ("local authority") and insert ("Local Government Board").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: The suggestion of the noble Marquess, or part of the suggestion, is one with which everybody will agree—that private builders should have the same advantage of relaxation of bylaws in any district as is allowed to the local authority, but the noble Marquess suggests that the local authority may in some cases not be willing to give precisely the same degree of liberty to the private builder as to themselves. And I suppose, as they are to some extent competitive builders, it might be suggested that they are prejudiced. Why not then, the noble Marquess suggests, let these plans be passed by the Ministry of Health or its local representative? I do not think there is very great difference between us, but I will make this offer to the noble Marquess, that we shall assume in ordinary cases that the local authority will act with reasonable fairness and will not go out of its way to put any difficulties in the way of the local builder, and that therefore the plans should come before them in the first instance, but, in order to obviate any possible unfairness, that the private individual should then have a right of appeal to the Ministry of Health. That, I think, would save a good deal of time from an administrative point of view, and if the noble Marquess thinks fit to accept that suggestion words could be brought up on Report.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI think that is a perfectly fair offer.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved the insertion of the following new subsection: "Subject to any conditions which may be prescribed by the Local Government Board, the provisions of any building by-laws shall not apply to any new buildings
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and new streets constructed and laid out by a county council or local authority in pursuance of a scheme approved by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under Small Holdings and Allotment Acts, 1908 and 1910, or any Act amending the same."
The noble and learned Lord said: Clause 23 provides, in subsection (1), for the relaxation of by-laws in connection with housing schemes in certain cases, and it applies, of course, to schemes made by a local authority or county council under the Housing Acts, or by a public utility society or housing trust, and approved by the Local Government Board. It is, of course, well known that county councils and other local authorities under the existing Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, and under the Land Settlement Facilities Bill, will provide a number of houses suitable for the working classes, and the view is taken—and I think it is a reasonable one—in regard to such houses which form part of the small holding schemes and are therefore technically not part of the housing scheme, that a similar relaxation of by-laws should be made possible to that which would be possible if the houses were provided by the same local authority under the Housing Acts.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 4, after subsection (3), insert the following new subsection:
"(4) Subject to any conditions which may be prescribed by the Local Government Board, the provisions of any building by-laws shall not apply to any new buildings and new streets constructed and laid out by a county council or local authority in pursuance of a scheme approved by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under Small Holdings and Allotment Acts, 1908 and 1910, or any Act amending the same."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24:
Consent of local authority to erection and use of buildings.
24.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of any building by-laws a local authority may, during a period of three years from the passing of this Act, consent to the erection and use for human habitation of any buildings erected or proposed to be erected in accordance with plans approved by the Local Government Board.
(2) The local authority may attach to their consent any conditions which they may deem proper with regard to the situation, sanitary arrangements, and protection against fire of such buildings, and may fix and from time to time

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extend the period during which such buildings shall be allowed to be used for human habitation.
(3) If any person feels aggrieved by the neglect or refusal of the local authority to give such consent or by the conditions on which such consent is given, or as to the period allowed for the use of such buildings for human habitation, he may appeal to the Local Government Board, whose decision shall be final, and shall have effect as if it were the decision of the local authority, provided that the Board may, before considering any such appeal, require the appellant to deposit such sum, not exceeding ten pounds to cover the costs of appeal, as may be fixed by rules to be made by them.
(4) Section twenty-seven of the Public Health Amendment Act, 1907, shall not apply to any buildings to which this section applies.
(5) In the application of this section to the administrative county of London, the expression "local authority" means the London County Council with respect to matters within their jurisdiction, and the common council of the City of London or the council of a Metropolitan borough (as the case may be) with respect to other matters.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "plans approved" and to insert "any regulations made." The noble and learned Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to save the Central Department from the administrative inconvenience of having to examine particular plans of temporary buildings which are proposed to be erected by private persons. The Amendment, I think, will add to the convenience of the operation of the Act. If every person who wishes to erect a building which he thinks will not, or may not, comply with the local by-laws sends his plans to the Central Department a great deal of unnecessary and troublesome work to everybody will be involved. The intention of this clause is to facilitate the use of Army hutments as a temporary expedient, and also to allow experiments in materials and methods of construction, and the effect of this Amendment will be to enable the Central Department to issue general regulations prescribing the types of material and the general construction under the powers conferred by the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 9, leave out ("plans approved") and insert ("any regulations made").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 25:
Byelaws respecting houses divided into separate tenements.
(6) Where the person on whom obligations are imposed by any by-laws made for the purposes specified in subsection (1) of this section with respect to houses so occupied as aforesaid holds the premises under a lease or agreement and satisfies the local authority that compliance with such by-laws is contrary to the provisions of the lease or agreement, or that the whole or any part of the expenses of carrying out the obligations ought to be borne by his lessor or other superior landlord, the local authority may, after giving the lessor or any such superior landlord an opportunity of being heard—

(a) in the first case, order that the provisions of the lease or agreement be relaxed so far as they are inconsistent with the requirements of the by-laws;

(b) in the second case, grant to the person who carries out the works necessary for compliance with the by-laws, on proof to the satisfaction of the local authority that the works have been properly carried out, a charging order charging on the premises an annuity to repay the expenses properly incurred in carrying out the works or such part of those expenses as the local authority consider ought to be so charged.

LORD BLEDISLOE LORD BLEDISLOE moved, in subsection (6), after "may" ["superior landlord, the local authority may"] to insert "make application to the county court, and the county court may." The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment of some substance. Its object is to render it possible, in every case where the person upon whom obligations are imposed by by-laws, by a local authority, and who alleges that his own tenancy agreement or lease is incompatible with those by-laws, to go for adjudication before the County Court, as indeed is provided in a subsequent section in a similar case, and not leave it to a rural district council (which has no knowledge whatever, and certainly no knowledge of conveyancing and which has no capacity for altering agreements) to decide whether or not the agreement is incompatible with the by-laws, and enforce upon the landlord an alteration in his lease or agreement.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Perhaps I may say, to save time, that the Government have no objection to accepting this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 1, after ("may") insert ("make application to the county court, and the county court may").—(Lord Bledisloe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 21, line 13, leave out ("local authority") and insert ("county court")
Page 21, line 15, leave out ("local authority") and insert ("county court").—(Lord Bledisloe.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next three Amendments are purely drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 21, line 30, after ("might") insert ("had the lessee not been the local authority")
Page 21, lines 31 and 32, leave out ("on the application of a person desiring to convert a house as aforesaid")
Page 21, lines 39, after ("Council") insert ("and any by-laws so made shall supersede any by-laws made for those purposes by the Council of any Metropolitan Borough").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 26:
Power to authorise conversion of a house into several-tenements.
26. Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the county count on an application by the local authority or the lessee of a house that, owing to changes in the character of the neighbourhood in which such house is situate, the house cannot readily be let as a single tenement but could readily be let for occupation if converted into two or more tenements, and that the provisions of the lease do not admit of such conversion, the court, after giving any person entitled to any interest in the house an opportunity of being heard, may vary the terms of the lease so as to enable the house to be so converted subject to such conditions and upon such terms as the court may think just.
LORD DYNEVOR LORD DYNEVOR moved to leave out Clause 26 and to insert the following new clause:
"26. Where an application is made to the county by the owner or the lessee of a house, or the local authority in whose district the same is situate after it has acquired an interest in the house that owing to changes in the character of the neighbourhood in which such house is situate the house cannot readily be let as a single tenement but could readily be let for occupation if converted into two or more tenements, and that the provisions of the lease or of the restrictive covenants express or implied of the estate on which the house may be situated do not admit of such conversion, and that a variation of such provisions or covenants in that respect should be
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sanctioned, the court, after giving notice to all persons having an interest in the house, such notice to be given in accordance with the rules hereinafter mentioned, shall refer the question whether the terms of the lease or such restrictive covenants as aforesaid, if any, should be varied so as to enable the house to be so converted as aforesaid to an arbitrator to be appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution, who after hearing all parties entitled to be heard shall determine whether the application shall be granted, and if so, the terms and conditions including the payment of compensation to any parties adversely affected by his decision and by whom the costs of the application should be borne. Provided that all rights and remedies for enforcing performance and observance of the covenants of the lease, including a right of re-entry (i f any such there be) shall apply to the covenants so modified as fully as if the modification had been effected by a clause in the lease coming into operation at the same time as the Order of the Court modifying the same. Provided also that any person aggrieved by the decision of the arbitrator may appeal to the County Court Judge on a point of law and such person or any other interested party aggrieved by the decision of the County Court Judge may appeal from him to the Supreme Court of Judicature.
"Rules as to the carrying out of this section shall be made by the Lord Chancellor."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, which I regret is rather a long one, I would point out that Clause 26 of the Bill gives power to a lessee or to a local authority to convert a house into two or more tenements, where the lease does not allow this to be done, after procuring the leave of the County Court. There is a proviso in the Bill that this shall only be done when, owing to the changes in the character of the neighbourhood in which such house is situated, the house cannot be readily let as a single tenement. This question would be tried by a County Court Judge who after hearing any person with an interest in the house would decide whether it should be done.
My amendment is to do away with this clause altogether and to put in its place another clause which I think is more explicit. The principle is not altered, but the Amendment would also give the right of applying to the County Court Judge to the owner as well as to the local authority and to the lessee, as the lessor may be just as anxious to have a restrictive covenant removed which he has often no power to remove. You will notice that my amendment compels the County Court Judge to refer the matter to an arbitrator to be appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution; because I submit that a County Court Judge is hardly fitted by his training and his practice to assess

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the damage and compensation in such cases. An experienced surveyor is required to deal with questions of structure. One can hardly conceive a County Court Judge taking a three-ft. measure and attempting to convert, say, an L-shaped London drawing-room into kitchen, scullery, and larder. There would be an appeal on points of law, first to the County Court Judge and from him to the Supreme Court of judicature. The surveyor, after hearing all parties entitled to be heard, would determine whether the application should be granted, and if so, the terms and conditions, including the payment of compensation to any parties adversely affected by his decision, and by whom the costs of the application should be borne. The rules for carrying out this clause would be made by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, who I am sure would be most willing to make them.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 26 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Dynevor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment which has been moved by the noble Lord is not one that would willingly in its present form be accepted by the Government. As the clause stands at present it provides that on an application by the local authority or the lessee of a house this matter may be dealt with by a County Court Judge. May I begin by saying that this clause was inserted in the Bill on the express recommendation of the Metropolitan Borough Councils; and it is designed to meet what is universally recognised to be a crying need in the various parts of London where there are numbers of large unoccupied houses which could provide adequate accommodation in the most difficult period of transition through which we are passing if they were converted into tenements.
The noble Lord suggests an alternative clause to that which the Government have put forward, and I am bound to say that it appears to me that his clause will very much militate against the prospect of making any substantial use of powers which are universally admitted to be desirable. The Bill as we drafted it gave to the local authority the independent power of applying to the Court, whereas under the clause of the noble Lord the local authority can only apply to the Court if it has acquired an interest in the
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house. That is obviously an extremely restrictive alteration of the proposal of the Government, and it is one which in our judgment would very greatly destroy the efficiency and the usefulness of the clause. In the second place, my noble friend's Amendment takes the decision out of the hands of the County Court and refers it to an arbitrator to be appointed by the President of the Surveyors' Institution. It then allows an appeal to a County Court Judge on a point of law, front him to the Supreme Court, and so on, I suppose—I do not know whether that is his object or not—through all the Courts. The delays that would be involved in a proposal of this kind are apparent. In fact, it is not too much to say that if appeals were permitted on these points, as is contemplated by the Amendment, the whole critical period might easily pass without anything at all being done. The whole object of the Government is to deal with a situation which is charged with anxiety and even with peril at the present moment.
I confess that if I have a sight prejudice it would be in favour of the County Court Judges. They are men of great experience and of great impartiality, and I should contemplate with anxiety giving power to a surveyor to vary the provisions of a lease. I have a great respect for the profession of surveyor, but I think that a surveyor's function is to give evidence before a Court and that then these matters should be dealt with by the Court. I have, of course, read the noble Lord's Amendment with great care and I think there is one point in it which is probably not covered by the Bill as at present drafted, a point. Which ought to be covered. The Bill refers in the clause under consideration to the provisions of the lease; the proposed clause of my noble friend refers also to the restrictive covenants express or implied of the estates on which the house may be situated, and I have no doubt that he has in mind the provisions of a building scheme. It may be that the provisions of the lease would cover the restrictive covenants, but I am not sure that they would. It is obvious that this case ought to be met. If the noble Lord does not think it necessary to insist upon the other parts of his Amendment—about which I feel the difficulties I have indicated—and if he will allow me the interval between the present day and the date when your Lordships will take the Report stage, I will satisfy myself that the words as they are to-day in the Bill cover

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that case, or I will move words—or invite the noble Lord to do so—which will make that clear.
LORD SHEFFIELD: In this clause, either as drafted by the Government or as proposed to be amended, I think one's attention is called to the fact that very serious questions arise in connection with legislating in a hurry. Clause 26 was put in under pressure, at the request of the people of London, largely to turn houses which are rather a drug in the market as single residences into flats for several people. In many of these estates there are covenants which apply to the lessees of the whole estate, and a man who has a house occupied by a single family might object to have the house next door turned into what would be practically a lodging house, although he may have a covenant that the whole thing should be kept as a single residence. I feel that it is very important that there should be legislation to enable, after a proper hearing of all persons interested, covenants to be superseded which have become obsolete by time and change of circumstances. It is clear that there are large districts where there is a covenant that houses should be used only as private dwelling-houses and where there is prohibition even against putting a brass plate for a doctor on the door, or of opening the house as a shop, or a hundred other things. The moment you begin to interfere with the rights and duties of parties as expressed in legal documents, on account of changed circumstances, you ought to look at the question as a whole and not merely, in a hurry, deal with one particular point. In South Kensington there are houses which are not easily let at present. However, I do not propose to raise any question, though I think there is great danger in this legislation.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am rather impressed by what the noble Lord says. I rather think that the point he takes would be met by the substitution of words giving any persons interested the opportunity of being heard.
LORD SHEFFIELD: That would do.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: And if he will accept the invitation—
LORD SHEFFIELD: I do not move an Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It would be easy for the noble Lord to move an Amendment, and I think it would very likely meet with support, but I am not sure that the Government should not do so on the Report stage.
LORD DYNEVOR: May I point out that I have included in my Amendment the words, "all persons having an interest in the house."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That does not meet the case. The noble Lord will observe that the clause itself contains these words "after giving any person entitled to any interest in the house an opportunity of being heard." That does not meet the point raised. The noble Lord explains that there are other persons who are really interested in the allocation of house A though they may have to live in house B, and that ought to be considered.
LORD DYNEVOR: I feel strongly on this point. I have taken the opinion of a great many people in connection with it, and I am sorry that my noble and learned friend does not see his way to accept the Amendment as it stands. The clause in the Bill, as drafted, is very inadequate and I am afraid I cannot agree with my noble and learned friend, much as I should like to do so. I must stand by my Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27:
Repair of houses.
27.—(1) If the owner of any house suitable for occupation by persons of the working classes fails to make and keep such house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation then, without prejudice to any other powers, the local authority may serve a notice upon the owner of such house requiring him within a reasonable time, not being less than twenty-one days specified in the notice, to execute such works as may be necessary to make the house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation.
(2) If the notice given by the local authority is not complied with, the authority may, at the expiration of the time specified in the notice given by them to the owner, do the work required to be done.
(3) Any expense incurred by the local authority under this section may be recovered in a court of summary jurisdiction, together with interest at a rate not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum from the date of service of a demand for the same till payment thereof from the owner,

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and until recovery of such expenses and interest the same shall be a charge on the premises. In all summary proceedings by the local authority for the recovery of any such expenses, the time within which such proceedings may be taken shall be reckoned from the date of the service of notice of demand.
(4) The local authority may by order declare any such expenses to be payable by monthly or annual instalments within a period not exceeding thirty years with interest at a rate not exceeding five pounds per centum per annum from the date of the service of notice of demand until the whole amount is paid, and any such instalments and interest or any part thereof may be recovered in a summary manner from the owner or occupier, and may be deducted from the rent of such premises.
(5) The local authority, if they think fit, from time to time (in addition and without prejudice to any other remedy) may recover in a court of summary jurisdiction, or us a simple contract debt, by action in any court of competent jurisdiction, from the owner from the time being of any such premises the whole or any portion of such expenses and interest.
(6) In this section "owner" shall have the same meaning as in the Pubic Health Act, 1875.
(7) This section shall be deemed to be part of Part II of the principal Act.
LORD BLEDISLOE LORD BLEDISLOE moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert: "Provided that the owner may within twenty-one days after the receipt of such notice, by written notice to the local authority, declare his intention of closing the house for human habitation, and thereupon a closing order shall be deemed to have become operative in respect of such house."
The noble Lord said: I may remind your Lordships that this clause provides that if the owner of any house should fail to make and keep such house in a condition fit for human habitation, the local authority may serve a notice on such owner, requiring him to execute such work as may be necessary to make the house in all respects reasonably fit for human habitation. By moving this proviso what I am in effect doing is to ask the House to reinstate in this Bill words which, for some reason unexplained, have dropped out of the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909. This proviso is intended to meet the case where the process of making a house habitable, according to modern ideas, might involve so large an expense as would be, in fact, more than the house itself was worth. The process of reconstructing a house which is not fit for human habitation may be impossible, and, even if it is
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possible, it may only be possible at most prohibitive cost.
I would like to remind your Lordships that very nearly all these cases, where houses are unfit for human habitation, are cases not of houses owned by your Lordships or by large landowners, but are houses owned by some of the poorest people in the land and in such cases they have not the means, they have not the capital—particularly in existing circumstances, when construction is so extremely expensive—to lay out on the reconstruction of the houses. All I ask—and the difficulty seems to have been contemplated at the time the 1909 Act was passed—is that where the house is, according to modern ideas, deemed to be unfit for human habitation (although there may for the time being be a tenant in it), if, and only if, the local authority consider that that house is unfit for habitation, the owner shall have the opportunity of closing the house rather than be called upon to expend money in a most extravagant, and possibly uneconomic, fashion.
May I say one thing further in this connection? There have, during the last five years, been a considerable number of houses which were possibly only just fit for human habitation five years ago, which are no longer fit according to modern ideas, and the owners are perfectly well aware of the fact, but, in view of the extreme shortage of accommodation, they are reluctant to turn the poor tenants into the street. If, simply because, out of charity and probably for no rent at all, they are willing that those persons should occupy the houses that are not deemed by the local authority to be habitable, they are going to be asked to lay out a large sum of money on reconstructing the houses, even assuming reconstruction to be possible, it would be a most unfair burden to place upon them, and, at the same time, possibly it would be a real unkindness to the poor inhabitants of those houses. I think it is a very reasonable proposal to make. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will favourably consider the Amendment and that your Lordships will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 29, after ("habitation") insert ("Provided that the owner may within twenty-one days after the receipt of such notice, by written notice to the local authority, declare his intention of closing the house for human habitation, and thereupon a closing order shall be deemed to have become operative in respect of such house")—(Lord Bledisloe.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: My noble friend complained that Sections 14 and 15 of the Housing and Town Planning Act to which he referred have, by some mysterious means, slipped out of the Act. The explanation is a very simple one. They have been found not to work, to be too limited, and to require strengthening. If my noble friend looks at this particular clause he will see that it does give the local authority power to compel owners to keep their houses in proper repair and, in cases of default, to recover costs, and so on.
What my noble friend proposes to do is this. He proposes, as I understand, to give an absolute right to the owner, if he chooses, to have the house closed when he is being served with notice that he has to put it in repair. My noble friend might argue that this would be declaring a house of very little value and that it could be bought at a reasonable price by the local authority. No doubt in ordinary times there may be something to be said for the contention, but at the present time the necessity of having houses is immense, and it would be a very dangerous thing to allow absolute freedom to the individual owner, if he liked, to shut down a house and not put it in proper repair. He might have various reasons for doing it; it might be the rather pathetic one to which the noble Lord alluded. He might have a quarrel with the local authority.
If the case is a very hard one; if the house is in so hopeless a state of repair that practically it is impossible to make it fit for human habitation, that is a case for the local authority to decide. But my noble friend wants to put that power entirely into the hands of the owner. I submit it ought to be left with the local authority. Under tie se circumstances, I hope, he will not press his Amendment, because he will realise no doubt the great necessity of having houses at the present time and the unwisdom of allowing owners at their own will, when pressed to do some repairs, to close houses and say they should be no longer used.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I do not think the noble Viscount really sees the difficulty in which he has landed the Government. Conceive what the position is after the speech he has just made. The Government practically say that if you have any houses in your possession you are bound to put
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them in order at the demand of the local authority no matter what sum is to be spent upon them. The Government have themselves established a Wages Board in agricultural districts who have laid down arrangements which are familiar to your Lordships including a rent of 3s. a week for a cottage. Therefore, what the noble Viscount demands is that every landowner should be forced to spend any sum, no matter what it may be, on a cottage. £100 was not an unusual sum to spend in putting a cottage into good repair long before the war. I myself have had to spend a great deal more on many cottages with no return in the matter of rent. Many of your Lordships know that £100 before the war is £300 now. Therefore, what the noble Viscount asks is that a cottage which requires to be modernised (which might have been done for £100 before the war, and which at present prices would cost between £400 and £500 now) must be done by the landlord, very often for the benefit of some agricultural labourer who does not work on his farm and who pays a rent of 3s. per week.
The landlord is therefore bound to be at an enormous loss in order to re-establish a cottage which he does not wish to have, and which he has only kept open because he did not like to turn the tenant out. I could give numerous instances of this. A landlord at this moment must not raise his rent; he must let at an uneconomical rent; he must pay an economic wage, and he has to do repairs to any degree that the local authority regard as up to the higher standard we all hope to obtain under improved conditions entirely at his own expense without any possible return, at an expenditure of capital which he is most unwilling to make merely because there happens to be this building on this farm. The proposition is not a tenable one. I deeply regret there should be any case of eviction in order to avoid reasonable expenditure, but unquestionably I think that the method out of it is the way of my noble friend's Amendment; then lay it upon the local authority to build, or to provide for building, and to exercise some discretion, say for two or three years, in allowing a cottage which is not actually insanitary but requires improvement to continue during that period. I hope the Government will reconsider the case; if not, I hope my noble friend will go to a Division
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: I think this Amendment is most important, and I shall my noble friend if he goes to a At the same time I fully recognise that there ought to be some method of compulsion on landlords who refuse to do reasonable repairs. I do not think there is any provision in the clause which deals with these repairs, and I feel quite certain that if any rural districts find they are behind with their work they will place a very unfair pressure on landlords to spend money on property on which it is not worth spending money at all. I think that any expenditure which incurred by the Council should not be charged on the owners' effects. If the council like to recover money which they have spent on the property out of the property itself then well and good. If they like to spend money on houses which are not worth repairing let them take the property. It is extremely hard indeed in many cases whore these houses are owned by men who are as poor as those who live in them that the debt should be recoverable front them if the council is foolish enough to spend money on the repair of houses which are not worth repair.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is, I think, not much difference of intention between the noble Viscount and myself and those who flame spoken in support of the Amendment. A hard case can be supposed, and a hard case has been made out, by more than one of those who have taken part in the debate. On the other hand the Government has, of course, as everyone knows, a very deep responsibility to see that owners are afforded every degree of inducement that circumstances may require in order to make such expenditure as will put houses which ought to be, in the interests of the community as a whole, used for workmen's dwellings into proper condition. I am prepared to accept the Amendment, though I entirely agree with what was said by the noble Viscount who has given me so much assistance in the conduct of this Bill, but I ought to add, and give warning, that it may be necessary on the Report stage to move some additional words which will supply the safeguard against the mischiefs of which the noble Viscount spoke.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BLEDISLOE LORD BLEDISLOE moved, in subsection (2), after "with," to insert "and
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if the owner has not given such notice as aforesaid."
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 31, after ("with") insert ("and if the owner has not given such notice as aforesaid").—(Lord Bledisloe.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 22, line 34, leave out ("expense") and insert ("expenses")
Page 23, line 11, after ("and") insert ("if recovered from the 'occupier'") and after ("deducted") insert ("by him")
Page 23, lines 12 to 17, leave out subsection (5).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved, after Clause 27, to insert the following new clause: "In the case of houses intended or used for occupation by the working classes the name and address of the medical officer of health for the district and of the landlord or other person who is directly responsible for keeping the house in all respects reasonably fit for human occupation, shall be inscribed in every rent book or where a rent book is not used, shall be delivered in writing to the tenant at the commencement of the tenancy."
The noble Marquess said: I offer this Amendment to the Government, though I have no desire to press it if they are unwilling to accept it. The new clause has been submitted to me by one of those women's organisations who have made a speciality of looking after this kind of thing, and they represent to me that it often happens that the occupier does not really know who, of the persons under whom he holds, is actually responsible for what we call landlord's repairs. As the Government and your Lordships are well aware, tenancies of this kind change very rapidly, and it is represented to me that in many cases the occupier for the rime being is ignorant as to whom he has a right to go in order to obtain those repairs which the landlord is by law compelled to make. In the same way it is represented to me that; the occupier is equally ignorant of the name of the medical

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officer of health and of his address, if his assistance is required in the matter. All that my Amendment suggests is that in every rent book or corresponding document, there should be included the name and address of the owner who is the particular owner under whom the occupier holds who is responsible for landlord's repairs, and also the name and address of the medical officer of health.
I submit this Amendment to the Government. It has been on the Paper several days, and no doubt they have considered it. If in their opinion it is unnecessary I shall not press it, but I must say on the general question that it is very important the occupier should know who to go to. These occupiers are very poor people, and they have great difficulty in knowing what their remedies are. Nothing is more touching in the case of the poor than the way in which they submit to all sorts of discomforts, and even injustices, with a sort of idea that it is fate which they cannot avoid and that it is better to endure. Therefore anything which this House or the House of Commons can do to give them full knowledge of their rights, and to whom they should go to secure those rights, seems to be a step in the right direction. In that spirit I offer the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
"Information to tenants of houses for the working classes.
"28. In the case of houses intended or used for occupation by the working classes the name and address of the medical officer of health for the district and of the landlord or other person who is directly responsible for keeping the house in all respects reasonably fit for human occupation, shall be inscribed in every rent book or where a rent book is not used, shall be delivered in writing to the tenant at the commencement of the tenancy."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Every one, of course, must sympathise with the object which the noble Marquess has in mind, but I am a little doubtful whether this clause as at present drafted will very effectively secure his purpose. I am not sure whether knowledge of the name and address of the medical officer of health, for instance, would be very useful to the tenant. I should have thought that the sanitary inspector would be really the person whose whereabouts it might have been very desirable to define. In its
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present form I also think that the new clause is a little open to objection, because the noble marquess will not have failed to observed that there is no sanction in the clause—no penalty. It is expressed peremptorily, but instructions of this kind peremptorily expressed and unattended with any penalty are very unusual and not very operative in an Act of Parliament. Perhaps the noble Marquess between now and the Report stage will take the opportunity of discussing this matter with myself or the Local Government Board.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I quite agree. I am perfectly satisfied with the suggestion, and no doubt the authorities at the Local Government Board will take notice of what has been said, and I shall have some opportunity of placing the matter before them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 28 to 31 agreed to.
Clause 32:
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 6, leave out ("appear to them") and insert ("in their opinion").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 33, to insert the following new clauses: "Notwithstanding anything in section fifty of the Brine Pumping (Compensation for Subsidence) Act, 1891, a local authority or county council shall be entitled to compensation in accordance with the provisions of that Act in respect of any injury or damage to any houses belonging to such local authority or council, and provided under a housing scheme towards the losses on which the Local Government Board is liable to contribute under this Act."
The noble and learned Lord said: This new clause ought to be briefly explained. I ought to explain, in order that the history of this proposal may be understood—it is not without importance—that the Brine Pumping (Compensation for Subsidence)

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Act, 1891, made provision for compensation to the owners of property suffering from the subsidence of ground caused by the pumping of brine, but by Section 50 of the Act local authorities, among others, were specifically excluded from the right to compensation under the Act. Now, my Lords, a deputation of the Northwich Urban District Council—and I believe they are not alone in this matter—recently attended at the Local Government Board to urge that a provision should be inserted in the Housing Bill, to the effect that notwithstanding anything in Section 50 of the Act of 1891 local authorities should be entitled to compensation, from any compensation board which might be formed under the Housing Act, in respect of damages to houses owned by the local authorities.
On the merits, the Government have formed the view that the Northwich Urban District Council have a good case, which should be met, and that it would be unfortunate to the prospects of the Bill and to its efficiency if the case were not met. The conditions are entirely altered since 1891, and altered by reason of the new housing programme, for which, of course, the Government are responsible. The Northwich Urban District Council contemplated building—and it is the case of many other councils—some five hundred new houses. It would be intolerable that they should run the risk of having those houses damaged by subsidence after the Exchequer subsidy had been finally fixed, and it would be also anomalous for the Treasury to continue paying a subsidy in respect of houses which no longer existed or remained in an inhabitable condition. The particular Urban District Council felt very strongly and expressed itself very strongly, and said that unless they got such a clause in the Bill, or alternatively received a guarantee that the Exchequer subsidy would be varied to cover any additional deficit due to loss occasioned by a subsidence, they could not see their way to building houses at all. The experts of the Government have been consulted upon the case so made, and although the change recommended to be made by the Government is undoubtedly a change of policy since 1891, I am hopeful that the great change of circumstance which I have explained, and which justifies the Amendment I now propose, will be treated by your Lordships as an adequate reason for such change of policy.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 33, insert the following new clause:
"Compensation in cases of subsidence.
"34. Notwithstanding anything in section fifty of the Brine Pumping (Compensation for Subsidence) Act, 1891, a local authority or county council shall be entitled to compensation in accordance with the provisions of that Act in respect of any injury or damage to any houses belonging to such local authority or council, and provided under a housing scheme towards the losses on which the Lord Government Board is liable to contribute under this Act."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: The object of the new clause which I now move is to enable local authorities in the County of Hampshire to obtain the necessary Crown land in the New Forest for the provision of houses under the Housing Acts, 1890 to 1919. I would point out to your Lordships that in many parts of the New Forest no land is available for housing the working classes except Crown lands, which are administered by the Commissioners of Forests. The New Forest (Sale of Lands for Public Purposes) Act, 1902, empowers the Commissioners to sell land for sanitary purposes only. The effect of this new clause would be to extend the powers of the Commissioners, so as to enable them to sell land to the local authority for housing purposes, and the local authority would have to—
VISCOUNT PEEL: I do not know whether it would shorten the discussion if I assure the noble Earl on the part of the Government that we think this quite a reasonable Amendment and are prepared to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
"Application of Act to New Forest.
"35. The provision of houses under the-Housing Acts, 1890 to 1919, shall be deemed to be a local sanitary requirement for the purpose of the New Forest (Sale of Lands for Public Purposes) Act, 1902."—(The Earl of Northbrook.)
LORD BLEDISLOE: Before that is finally disposed of, may I ask whether there is in existence any powers in the case of the Forest of Dean, which is the other Royal Forest, where the population is very much greater and where there is an urgent need for a large number of houses.
LORD ERNLE: Under the Act affecting the Forest of Dean there is power to sell land up to £1,000 per plot.
LORD BUCKMASTER: I should like to be assured as to the limit of the powers that will be enjoyed if this clause is inserted. Will it be competent to some local authority to turn large pieces of the new Forest into a garden city? Is there to be any limit placed upon their desire to build rows of houses over what is now certainly one of the most beautiful public places in the whole of England? I thought the anxiety of everyone was to preserve absolutely intact as far as we possibly could the large public spaces which we now enjoy. This clause it seems to me is to enable people to build over the open spaces without as far as I can understand any limit or restriction whatever
LORD ERNLE: We are satisfied that the clause moved by the noble Earl will not have the effect which has been indicated by the noble and learned Lord, because it is necessary that a local inquiry should be held by the Ministry of Health, and the Ministry of Health should be satisfied on three points—that the land is immediately required for the purpose of housing in the interest of the public health of the locality, that no suitable land not being part of the Forest is obtainable without due expense, and that the land proposed to be sold is in respect of situation, extent and otherwise, sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the case. It is only on receiving a certificate to that effect, given after local inquiry held, that the Commissioner of Woods is enabled to act. I may further add that provision is made that if the land is not used for the purposes for which it is sold it reverts at once to the Crown.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ERNLE LORD ERNLE moved to insert a new Clause (Extension of powers of Commissions of Woods). The noble Lord said: The new clause which stands in my name requires some little explanation. The land referred to in the clause is situated at the extreme eastern boundary of Bushey Park. It is separated from that park by a wail, and it abuts on the high road which separates it from the two urban authorities of Hampton Wick and Teddington.
The land in question has been for some time in the immediate occupation of His
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Majesty. It is under the management of the Master of the Horse, and the whole of it up to a recent date was used for grazing His Majesty's horses. Last year His Majesty approved of a portion of this land being used for allotments. Now it has been represented to His Majesty that this land is required for building purposes, and His Majesty has graciously intimated his consent to the appropriation of this land for that purpose provided that the Ministry of Health is satisfied that it is essential in the national interest that it should be taken. The area of land is marked out and coloured on the plans which are desposited according to the necessary formalities.
But here the difficulty arises. The provision of a statute of the reign of George IV prohibits the Commissioners from selling or letting land which is part of a public park, and though it may be open to question whether this piece of land ever was part of the Royal park, yet out of greater caution it is considered desirable that the Commissioners should be specially enabled to deal with the piece of land specifically delineated and coloured on the map in question, provided that the Ministry of Health certifies that its appropriation is required in the national interests for housing purposes.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
"Extension of powers of Commissioners of Woods.
"36. The Commissioners of Woods may under and in accordance with the provisions of the Crown Lands Acts, 1829 to 1906, sell or let to a local authority for the purposes of Part III of the principal Act any part of the land described on the duplicate plans which have been deposited with the Clerk of Parliaments and the Clerk of the House of Commons notwithstanding that such land may be part or parcel of a royal park, if the Ministry of Health, after holding a local inquiry, are satisfied that the acquisition of the land by the local authority for such purposes as aforesaid is desirable in the national interest."—(Lord Ernle.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34:
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 22, after ("Act") insert ("The Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1903").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35:
Amendments moved—
Page 26, line 1, leave out the first ("sell") and insert ("sale") and leave out ("the power to sell") and insert ("sale")
Page 26, line 3, leave out ("sale") and insert ("sell")
Page 26, line 6, leave out ("Act, 1893, or any amendment thereof") and insert ("Acts, 1893 to 1913")
Page 26, line 20, after ("buildings") insert ("including the drainage thereof")
Page 26, line 21, after ("construction") insert ("and drainage").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 36:
Application to London of certain provisions of the Housing Acts.
36.—(1) For the purposes of the application of Part III of the principal Act to the county of London—

(a) the London County Council shall be the local authority For the county, to the exclusion of any other authority, so far as regards the provision of any houses outside the administrative county of London;

(b) the council of a metropolitan borough shall be the local authority for the metropolitan borough, to the exclusion of any other authority, so far as regards the provision of houses within the metropolitan borough;

Provided that where the London County Council is satisfied that there is situate within the area of a metropolitan borough land suitable for development for housing, the county council may submit a scheme for the approval of the Local Government Board for the development of such land to meet the needs of districts situate outside the area of such borough, and the county council may carry into, effect any scheme which is so approved.

(c) the Local Government Board may by order direct that any of the powers or duties of the council of a metropolitan borough under Part III of the principal Act shall be transferred to the London County Council, or that any of the powers or duties of the London County Council under Part III of the principal Act shall be transferred to the council of a metropolitan borough.

(2) Any loss which may be incurred by the council of a metropolitan borough in carrying out a scheme to which section seven of this Act applies shall be repaid to them by the London County Council, and any payments so made by the London County Council shall be deemed to have been made as part of the expenses incurred by them in carrying out a scheme under that section.
(3) The London County Council and the Common Council of the City of London may at any time enter into an agreement for carrying out any scheme for the purposes of Part I or Part III of the principal Act, and for the apportionment of the expenses incurred in carrying out such scheme, and if the scheme is a scheme to which section seven of this Act applies, any payments made under such apportionment by the county council and the, common council shall be deemed to have been made as part of the expenses incurred in carrying out a scheme under that section.
LORD DOWNHAM: The Amendment in my name to subsection (1) (b) of this clause is really a small clarifying Amendment. It is very doubtful unless these words are inserted whether the London County Council would be able to develop and manage properties which it has already built in the areas of some of the metropolitan boroughs. I will take the area on which it has built a very large number of houses in the borough of Hammersmith. I think these words ought to be inserted in order to make it perfectly clear that the London County Council will still be able to manage and develop these estates.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 36, after ("Provided") insert:
"(i) That nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect the rights, powers and privileges of the London County Council in regard to any lands, buildings or works acquired, provided or carried out by the County Council before the date of the passing of this Act, and (ii)."—(Lord Downham.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: I think that some such words are necessary. It is clear that there ought to be no doubt that the Council can proceed to develop its own estates, and I accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DOWNHAM LORD DOWNHAM moved, at the end of subsection (1) (b), to insert "and such approval should be deemed to have been given under section 1 of this Act." The noble Lord said: This also is a small clarifying Amendment. The financial assistance under Clause 7 is to be given to schemes under Clause 1 if they fulfil certain conditions. Clause 36 found a place in the Bill during the discussion in Committee, and I am afraid that unless these words are inserted it will be doubtful at all events whether schemes which come under Clause 36 would be entitled to financial assistance under Clause 7. The Amendment is merely to make it clear that they will be entitled to that assistance.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 7, at end insert ("and such approval shall be deemed to have been given under section one of this Act").—(Lord Downham.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: It certainly is the intention of the Government that this assistance should be given, and I am willing to accept the Amendment to make the matter clear.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DOWNHAM LORD DOWNHAM moved to leave out paragraph (c). The noble Lord said: This clause is a valuable one and was inserted by the desire of the London County Council. It clears up the position in London. The position in London was very complicated before this clause was introduced. The clause makes it clear that the London County Council shall be the authority in future so far as regards the provision of any houses outside the administrative county, but that the councils of the metropolitan boroughs shall be the local authority for each metropolitan borough to the exclusion of any other authority so far as regards the provision of houses within that metropolitan borough. This is thoroughly satisfactory to the London County Council and to the metropolitan boroughs. But we certainly did not think that, having made that decision, the Local Government Board should take the power to over-ride the decision which has been come to, and on its own initiative to make some scheme by which the powers which are given to the London County Council under Clause 36 shall be transferred to a metropolitan borough; or, on the other hand, that the powers given to a metropolitan borough should be transferred to the London County Council. We would certainly rather that subsection (c) was not in this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, lines S to 15, leave out paragraph (c).—(Lord Downham.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that the noble Lord will not think it necessary to carry this Amendment further. It is really included in the atmosphere of the decision which your Lordships reached yesterday upon an Amendment moved by the noble Lord, which would have had the effect of excluding the London County
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Council altogether from the scope of the Act. The noble Lord recognised, I think, that the sense of the House was opposed to that proposal, and having, as he said, made his protest, he did not press the particular Amendment to a Division. The proposal here really is that a subsection which has the effect of providing that in the case of default, either of a Metropolitan borough council or even of a body so important as the London County Council, the Government—not a smaller authority, but the Government—should be in a position to transfer the powers of the defaulting authority to another authority, which will carry out the work. I think I am not exaggerating the matter when I say that a negative answer to the present Amendment is logically required by the decision which your Lordships reached last night, if there either is default or there is not default. If there is default, the Government must be in a position to transfer the powers of the authority; and even if there is no default I should have thought it was convenient that there should be power to transfer the duty of carrying out a scheme to the authority which, in the view of the Government, is able to carry it out most efficiently and most expeditiously. I hope that the noble Lord, whose many contributions to this Bill we have been able to accept, will not think it necessary to press this one.
LORD DOWNHAM: I do not intend to press it. I expressed the view not only of the London County Council but of most of the Metropolitan borough councils, so far as I have been able to gather their opinion. They would rather have done without this subsection.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendments are drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, lines 22, leave out ("under that section") and insert ("to which that section applies")
Page 27, line 32, leave out ("under that section") and insert ("to which that section applies").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 37 to 40 agreed to.
Clause 41:
Duty of local authorities to prepare town, planning scheme.
41. The council of every borough or other urban district, the population of which exceeds twenty thousand, and any other local authority which the Local Government Board may require, shall, within three years after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, prepare and submit to the Board a town planning scheme in accordance with provisions to be determined by the Board with reference to any land within the area of the local authority.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment in my in name to this clause is also purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 37, at end insert ("in regard to which a town planning scheme may be made under the Act of 1909").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DOWNHAM LORD DOWNHAM moved to leave out Clause 41. The noble Lord said: I come now to what is certainly one of the most important Amendments which we have yet discussed, or are likely to discuss and that is the omission of Clauses 41 and 42. That raises the whole question of town planning. Neither of these clauses was in the original Bill. Indeed, these clauses only found a place in the Bill on the very last day on which the Bill was discussed in Committee in the House of Commons. They were not the clauses of the Government; they were, I rather think, forced upon the Government. Certainly the Government did not accept them with any willingness, and I cannot help thinking that my noble and learned friend in charge of the Bill would really, even now, be without them.
These clauses are very formidable. Clause 41 says that the council of every borough which exceeds 20,000, and any other authority which the Local Government Board may require shall, within three years after the 1st day of January, 1923, prepare and submit to the Board a town planning scheme in accordance with the provisions to be determined by the Board with reference to any land within the area of the local authority. Notice the words "any land." And Clause 42 goes on to say that if any of these local authorities fail to submit a scheme which is satisfactory to the Local Government Board, the Local Government Board shall itself submit that scheme, carry out that scheme, and impose the whole of the expense
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of that scheme upon the local authority.
Now, no local authority is bound to take any action until three years after the year 1923. Why, then incorporate these Clauses at all in this Act? The whole object of this Act really was to provide houses and to do all that was reasonable and practicable to make the present houses available as healthy dwellings. There was no necessity to incorporate these clauses about town planning, and when we come to think that no local authority is called upon to act till three years after 1923, what hurry is there to produce this kind of legislation?
Town planning is a very large and important, and a very serious matter, on which we know very little indeed at the present time. We have had very little practical experience of it. But it is just worth while for a moment to turn to the Town Planning Act of 1909 (Mr. Burns's Act), and to see what is meant by town-planning, and what powers are included in town-planning. Those are best described, I think, in Schedule 4 of the Act. The matters to be dealt with under a town-planning scheme are—

1. Streets, roads, and ether ways, and stopping up, or diverging of existing highways;

2. Buildings, structures, and erections;

3. Open spaces, private and public;

4. The preservation of objects of historical interest or natural beauty;

5. Sewerage, drainage, and sewage disposal;

6. Lighting;

7. Water supply;

8. Ancillary or consequential works;

9. Extinction or variation of private rights of way and other easements;

10. Dealing with or disposal of land acquired by the responsible authority or by a local authority;

11. Power of entry and inspection;

and generally very large powers dealing with land, with buildings, with roads, and almost every kindred topic. Those are the powers under a town-planning scheme. I think we ought to be exceedingly careful before we pass an Act of Parliament which shall compel every local authority to submit a scheme for town planning dealing with these immense matters.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Local authorities over 20,000.
LORD DOWNHAM: There are also words in the Act about any other local authority which the Local Government Board may call upon. So I do not think it is limited to places of 20,000 inhabitants. However, I will limit my argument to that. Every such local authority is to be forced to submit a town planning scheme, and if the town planning scheme is not satisfactory to the Local Government Board the Local Government Board can impose a town planning scheme upon that local authority at any expense, and can carry out a town planning scheme of its own and put the whole expense upon the rates of that unfortunate authority.
That is really one of the most startling proposals, I think, that has ever been made to any House of Parliament. The local authority may already have a rate of 12 s. in the £ It may say that this enormous town planning scheme is altogether unnecessary, and it may be a better judge, after all, than the Housing Commissioners employed by the Local Government Board. But, after all, we must have some regard to the power of local authorities to regulate their own expenditure and to see that this expenditure is regulated with some regard to the rate which is to be imposed upon the ratepayers in the area of that local authority
I cannot help thinking that these clauses have been put in without any adequate consideration. I will take the first, which says that "the town planning scheme is to have reference to any land within the area of the local authority." The Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909 confines a town planning scheme to "any land which is in course of development or appears likely to be used for building purposes, and the town planning scheme cannot apply to any land that is already built upon, except with the express sanction of the Local Government Board." The Local Government Board very rarely applies a town planning scheme to land that is already built upon because, in the first place, it is enormously expensive. I want to know from my noble friend whether the words "any land" in Clause 41 are in any way safeguarded; whether "any land" means any land, or whether it means any land within the provisions of the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909? I want to call your Lordships' attention to the fact that these two clauses are really one of the most slovenly possible pieces of legislation. There are some new clauses put into this
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Bill which give certain powers to the Local Government Board and which to a certain extent repeal the original provisions of the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909; and by one of the Schedules to this Bill the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909 is further repealed in certain of its provisions. But I will defy the ablest lawyer in this House to say, by reading this Bill, how far the powers that were strictly limited in the Act of 1909 are limited by these two clauses; how far these two clauses practically repeal the great Act of 1909.
I call it "the great Act of 1909." I am aware that Dr. Addison spoke of it in a very different way the other day when he said that it was "a verbose and impudent Act; one of the worst Acts the Liberal Government ever passed." I have had something to do with the procedure under that Act, and my opinion is that the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909 carried us a very long way on the road to housing reform, and that-the Government of that day can take great credit for the passing of that Act. But I say that this is a subject which requires far more consideration than the Government have given to it; that the whole question of town planning ought to be very carefully considered by the Government; that we ought to have some Housing Consolidation Act. We ought to have some new Town Planning Act put into a perfectly separate Bill; a Bill which we can clearly understand; a Bill which we can read, and a Bill which after reading will tell us how far the Act of 1909 has been repealed and how far its provisions still stand.
It is very important in considering this question of town planning—compulsorily taking land which has already been built upon—to know what safeguards will be put into your measure as regards compensation to those whose property you take away for the purposes of town planning. I should like to know from the noble and learned Lord in charge of the Bill whether the compensation clauses in the Act of 1909 still stand if these two clauses now under discussion are passed; how far the clauses in this Bill wipe out the whole of the Act of 1909; how far they wipe out the safeguards to those who possess property that is taken; and how far this is a repealing measure. I am certain that these two clauses were put in without any

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adequate or proper consideration; that the whole subject requires the most careful consideration by those who are capable of giving us an opinion on difficult legal questions. I am of opinion that we shall be well advised if we strike out these two clauses and send the Bill back to the House of Commons in the shape in which it was drawn by the Government, who had never the slightest intention when they introduced the Bill to deal with the whole of the complicated subject of town planning.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 41.—(Lord Downham.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Are we quite dear of the intention of this clause? The noble and learned Lord will see that the wording is rather curious. It says—
"The council of every borough or other urban district, the population of which exceeds 20,000, and any other local authority which the Local Government Board may require …"
That may read, according to the commas, in one way or the other. It may mean that every local authority of over 20,000 must prepare a scheme after the year 1923, or every local authority of over 20,000 and every local authority of under 20,000—in either case—which the Local Government Board may require. That is a wholly different proposition. It is not quite clear to some of us what is intended by the wording of the Bill. There are, of course, three courses. You may put compulsion by Act of Parliament on every authority of over 20,000. That can be justified only if the Government have satisfied themselves that every place of over 20,000 requires a town planning scheme—a proposition which, I think, would be one of the most extraordinary every put forward in this House. That is one point. The second is in every case which the Local Government Board may require. That is contrary to the whole principle of local government unless it is accompanied by an Inquiry at which local authorities could be heard, and ultimately the decision might no doubt rest with the Local Government Board.
But what I would urge on my noble friend is this. There is probably no man in this House who speaks with greater knowledge of the course of these town planning schemes than my noble friend who has just sat down. I was with him on
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the London County Council for six years. During most of that time he was responsible for finance, and in that position it was no doubt his duty most carefully to scrutinise these very large schemes. I can bear witness that, although (as it were) briefed on the side of economy and care, my noble friend throughout took the strongest possible interest in all these schemes of town planning and encouraged them to the utmost extent in his power That being so, I think we ought to be more careful in regard to the protest he has made to us this afternoon on this subject; and I hope that the noble and learned Lord in charge of the Bill will see that this absolutely unbounded provision—forcing every town of every description to enter upon what is one of the most expensive courses that could possibly be entertained without regard to the state of its population—is one which certainly requires modification.
LORD ISLINGTON: Before the Lord Chancellor replies to the Amendment moved by my noble friend, I should like to say a word in strong support of the Amendment. This proposal, as my noble friend has explained to the House, has been inserted in the Bill as an afterthought and is not the original scheme of the Government's Bill. I expect, if we were to know the truth, it was rushed into the Bill by a number of well-meaning enthusiasts for town planning, but it is a proposal which I sincerely hope will be omitted from the Bill. If these two clauses are retained you will really have a Housing Bill with provisions in it as autocratic as the proposals in the Transport Bill which is now undergoing such modifications in the House of Commons. It is almost inconceivable that Parliament should, by Act of Parliament, furnish the central authorities—not only those with a population of over 20,000 but, in accordance with the wording of the Bill, those with a smaller population—with such a tremendous power as that of mandamusing for great schemes such as those which would have to be elaborated under a town planning scheme.
The omission of these two clauses, I venture to say, would in no way interfere with meeting what is the most urgent demand of the day—namely, the provision of houses in all parts of the country. They embody a really academic suggestion thrown in at the tail end of a Bill designed to meet an immediate urgency. It is not

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suggested in the Bill that these schemes are to mature either this year or next year, but some; years hence; but, of course, if they are to be practical schemes and if the clauses really mean anything of a practical character, they will entail an immense amount of protracted consideration and work on the part of the respective staffs connected with local authorities, and, to that extent, they will divert those staffs from the far more pressing and urgent course of their housing operations.
I entirely associate myself with what my noble friend said in regard to the matter of town planning. It is one of those questions which still require, before they can be regarded as matured, deep consideration, and I would point out to your Lordships one aspect of it which is advancing day by day and which, therefore, must necessitate very careful thought and possibly very considerable modification of the original scheme as laid down in the Act of 1909. A revolution has taken place in regard to the by-laws and housing conditions over urban areas. It is only a very few years ago that an astute surveyor could place upon an acre of land no fewer than fifty-three houses. Such cases are to be found in the City of London, and, I have no doubt, in some of the larger cities throughout the country as well. Now, by Act of Parliament, the number has been reduced to not more than twelve or, at the outside, fifteen houses upon an acre. This very condition of the by-laws is approximating ordinary housing schemes to what were regarded as town planning schemes a few years ago. Therefore, the actual development under the Housing Act, by which it is incumbent on the local authority to see that not more than twelve houses are placed on an acre of land, must correspondingly entail considerable open spaces, considerable modifications of by-laws in connection with roads, and so on; and, as I say, ordinary housing schemes are brought very close to what were regarded as the ideal town planning schemes only a few years ago. I venture to point that out only to show that this question of town planning will require most careful consideration.
Before I sit down I should like to draw attention to one other consideration, which I think is of first-class importance in regard to London. I hope, and I ant sure many of your Lordships share the hope, that at an early date there will be introduced something
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in the nature of a central authority for London traffic. It is a proposal which has been postponed for no less than fifteen years and one to which effect ought to have been given as the result of the Report of the Royal Commission which sat twelve or fifteen years ago. These schemes, which are to be imposed by mandamus by the Central authority, will have a very close connection with the adjustment of the main arteries of traffic that are to be constructed from the centre to the outskirts of London, and it would be absurd, in my judgment, to give to the Central authority, at this juncture, the arbitrary power to impose a town planning scheme involving the construction of all those roads in the outskirts of London, until something has been done, as I hope it will soon be done, in the form of machinery to co-ordinate and to adjust the whole of the traffic conditions and the road conditions of the metropolis. Taking all these matters into consideration, as well as, of course, the vital matter of expense, I do think that we in this House will in no way be detracting from the merits of the Bill—the object of which is to meet the great emergency of housing—but we shall, I hope, at the same time be supporting the Government in their original Bill, by giving the House of Commons an opportunity to reconsider a rather ill-thought acceptance of these two clauses.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The history of these Amendments was given quite accurately by the noble Lord who moved them a few moments ago. It is quite true that these clauses were not contained in the Bill as originally drafted by the Government draughtsmen, and the withers of these very accomplished gentlemen are, therefore, entirely unwrung by the noble Lord's censures upon the drafting of the two clauses in their present state. I missed, I confess, from the speeches that have been made, any appreciation of the very great importance that there should be some direction, properly guided and instructed, in relation to the very large number of new houses that will be constructed under this Bill. There have been, so many Amendments that I do not pretend exactly to recollect, but I think your Lordships inserted an Amendment the object of which was to provide that the beauty of the countryside should be safeguarded. Surely this ought to be borne in mind.

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As I have said, a very large number of houses are to be built. In some districts the whole character of the town will be altered and will be affected, if not permanently for a very long period of time, by the form in which these houses are constructed. I will say a word as to the drafting of the particular clauses and as to these particular proposals in a moment. But surely no one can dispute that it is of the greatest possible importance, in relation to something which was said by Lord Salisbury yesterday (with which I entirely agreed), that the direction should be in the hands of an authority which, in the first place, is central; in the second place, is experienced; and, in the third place, is armed with the powers to make its recommendations effective. Your Lordships will not fail to observe that, unless there are some powers of compelling local authorities to submit a scheme, the central authority is absolutely helpless. Therefore unless they have such powers they are helpless, and you are face to face with this fact that this new England of ours, or that part of it which will be new, will grow up without any artistic direction and the whole beneficent work of town-planning will produce no new conditions of any particular consequence at all.
I must deal with an observation made by the noble Lord who has just sat down. I do not recall his exact words but he suggested that it was ridiculous and inconceivable Parliament would consent that tile Local Government Board or the Ministry of Health should be armed with the power, by mandamus, of compelling public authorities to submit schemes. I cannot help thinking that if had read the Clause a little more carefully he would not have failed to have perceived that the whole object of Clause 42 is to avoid the necessity of proceeding by mandamus. It will also probably surprise the noble Lord to learn—although he thinks it so absurd Parliament should arm the Local Government Board with the power by mandamus of compelling local authorities to produce such a scheme—that it is exactly what the Act of 1909, which the noble Lord who moved this Amendment so much praises, did. In substance it is hardly an exaggeration to say that the only difference between Clause 42 of the present. Bill and Section 61, subsection (1), of the Town-Planning Act of 1909 is, that in the Act of 1909 the remedy was by mandamus, whereas the present remedy is the substi
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tution of one authority by another authority. Section 61 of the Town-Planning Act of 1909 says—
"If the Local Government Board are satisfied on any representation, after holding a public local inquiry, that a local authority—

(a) have failed to take the requisite steps for having a satisfactory town planning scheme prepared and approved in a case where a town planning scheme ought to be made; or

(b) have failed to adopt any scheme proposed by owners of any land in a ease where the scheme ought to be adopted; or

(c) have unreasonably refused to consent to any modifications or conditions imposed by the Board;

the Board may, as the case requires, order the local authority to prepare and submit for the approval of the Board such a town planning scheme, or to adopt the scheme, or to consent to the modifications or conditions so inserted … "
I am at least entitled to say, when I am confronted with these gloomy prospects as to what the consequence will be if the Local Government Board is armed with the power of coercion by mandamus on public authorities in order to prepare schemes, that such powers have existed for ten years. I am also entitled to say that these very powers have been in force for ten years and they have not caused one of the mischiefs which the noble Lord said would follow if this Clause is substituted. I would add this, that Clause 41 stands in a different position, and I am disposed to think that the feeling which I suspect is general among your Lordships in relation to Clause 41 might be given effect to by assenting to the proposal made by the noble Lord who moved the Amendment, and by accepting his Amendment. When I say "accepted" I desire that it should be understood here and elsewhere that I am giving way to what I am sensible is the general opinion, that Clause 41 in its present form has not perhaps been sufficiently considered, and if the House of Commons desire to consider it further they will have an opportunity of doing so. I am sure your Lordships will respectfully consider anything they send up to us.
Clause 42 is in a different position, and I would ask the noble Lord who has moved the Amendment, and your Lordships, to consider whether Clause 42 is not both a useful and almost a necessary Clause having regard to the circumstances I have mentioned. If there are any safeguards in the earlier Act which are not in this I would willingly assent to a modi-

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fication of the present proposal in order to bring it into line. The real difference is only in machinery. Instead of proceeding by mandamus you proceed by subsection (2)—"any order made by the Local Government Board under this section shall have the same effect as a resolution of the local authority deciding to prepare a town planning scheme in respect to the area in regard to which the order is made." Instead of a mandamus, which is a clumsy remedy, you have the substituted authority. The noble Lord who moved the Amendment asked me whether the compensation section of the Town Planning Act was affected or done away with by this section. This clause does not in any way affect the compensation section of the. Town Planning Act. The noble Lord will no doubt accept that assurance. Under these circumstances I venture to recommend that your Lordships should accept, as the Government are prepared to accept, the Amendment moved in relation to Clause 41, but for the reasons I have put forward I hope Clause 42 may still retain its place in the Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: This has been an interesting and important discussion, and so far as the substance of Clause 41 is concerned I am glad the noble and learned Lord does not think that its retention would be an advantage. It appears to me to possess, in its present form at any rate, two disadvantages, one of which was pointed out by the noble Viscount—namely, that it seems hardly reasonable to compel a community of 20,000 inhabitants or upwards to submit a town planning scheme within a limited time without reference whatever to local conditions.
In the second place, some criticism can be levelled at the clause from the opposite point of view. It is clearly the object of every one, at least of all sensible people, that where a large number of houses have to be erected they should not be erected hurriedly and in a manner which would interfere with the details of a large town planning scheme for the future, and they should not be erected in such a way as would affect the improvement of arterial communications in the future. But if the building of the houses is to be carried out within the next two or three years and the town-planning scheme need not be presented for six years, it seems to me that this safeguard to a great extent disappears, and
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if the presentation of a town planning scheme is necessary in order to safeguard building schemes under Clause 1, then something ought to have been said on Clause 1 to make that care for the future a necessary part of the duties of local authorities in preparing their scheme.
I think that some modified form of Clause 41 might assist and back up Clause 42, and I am bound to say that I differ from the noble Lord who desires to omit Clause 42. That appeals to me to be a distinctly valuable adjunct to the Bill, and I should be very sorry to see it go. And if it is thought desirable to add some modified form of Clause 41, which would not possess the objections that I have ventured to indicate as existing in its present form, those who are deeply interested in town planning might derive some satisfaction, and this House would not be under the imputation of having thrown out, without any attempt at modification, a proposal made in another place. Very shortly I put this as a suggestion to those in charge of the Bill, in case they think it worth while, supposing some modification of the clause were presented on Report, to reconsider the matter.
LORD ISLINGTON: The noble and learned Lord poured contempt on me just now, by suggesting that I had not accurately or carefully read Clause 42. I beg to say to your Lordships that I have read it with very great care, and I am bound to say that the argument of the noble and learned Lord has not in any way altered my opinion as regards what I said just now, namely, that subsection (3) of that clause does lay down that the central authority, in certain circumstances, can actually mandamus these local authorities for a town planning scheme. I hope your Lordships will fully realise that that is what the subsection proposes, and that is what will be embodied in the Bill. It clearly says that the Board may either authorise the county council to act or may themselves act in the place, and at the expense of, the local authority. It is perfectly clear that the central authority can insist upon the scheme being carried out, and being carried out at the expense of the local authority.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Really! my Lords, the words in the subsection are extremely clear. If the local authority fails to prepare a scheme the Board may

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either authorise the county council to act or may themselves act. That, and that alone, is the effect, of this subsection. On the other hand I have pointed out very clearly that there was a mandamus on precisely similar circumstances under the Act of 1909, which is in force to-day. No mandamus is needed, merely because it is the law of the land at present.
LORD ISLINGTON: If that is so, I do not see the object of including it in this Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is no mandamus provided for in this Bill. What we have done is simply to provide an alternative and swifter method, and we have done it by substituting one authority for another.
LORD DOWNHAM: I think I understand my noble and learned friend to accept the Amendment to omit Clause 41. I should just like to make one or two remarks on what has fallen from my noble and learned friend in expressing his intention to accept the Amendment. He says it is most desirable that the central authority should have some power to supervise and direct large schemes of housing—I agree—and that without these two clauses the central authority would not have power. The central authority has that power now. Every scheme must be submitted to the central authority, and they can approve of the scheme as a whole, or some modification of it; and if Clause 41 is looked at carefully it is seen that after all this Clause does not come into operation until three and a-half years from row, and that is the date which is fixed for the limit of the period for which the Government gives any financial assistance. Therefore these schemes are to be imposed upon local authorities without financial assistance from the Government, and that is my complaint—that the Government Department can say to a local authority, "You are to carry out a most expensive town planning scheme and if you will not do it we shall do it for you, and at great expense, and charge the whole of the expense upon you."
I think it requires very great consideration before we give that power to any Government Department. The Government Department may say to the London County Council, under Clause 42, "we think you ought to have an enormous town planning scheme for a certain portion of
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London. It may be very expensive, but that does not matter to us. We do not find the money, but the ratepayer does." The local authority may say: "Well, looking at our rates and the work which we are obliged to do, and the many loans which we are obliged to raise, we do not think it prudent to carry out such a scheme within five years." The Government Department may then say, "We will carry it out for you." My noble and learned friend says that the power of mandamus exists at the present day, but that is hedged round by certain conditions. In the first place there must be representation made by representative people, and, secondly, there must be a local inquiry. No such safeguard is provided in Clause 42, and there is no necessity for the Government Department to have any representation from those who are really interested in the area, or a local inquiry.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thought I said that there were certain precautionary measures taken under the earlier Act which I would accept if any noble Lord moved them on the Report stage. Therefore it is really of no use for the noble Lord to say that there are earlier safeguards. That is what I have said, and I have said that I will accept them on the Report stage.
LORD DOWNHAM: I am very sorry if I did not catch all that my noble friend said with regard to safeguards. If I understand loin to say that he will put in this Bill the safeguards which are in the Act of 1909, that will make a considerable difference, but there is still one other point to which I called attention in my original speech, to which he omitted to give me any reply. Clause 41 applies to "any land"; is Clause 42 to apply to "any land" or is it to be limited, as in the Act of 1909, to particular land?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Those words are in Clause 41, and I have excluded those words from the Bill by accepting the Amendment. Therefore I do not know why the noble Lord should call upon me to explain words which I said, speaking of the clause as a whole, were ambiguous, and therefore I accepted the Amendment. I do not think it is reasonable to ask me to explain the words of a clause which I have dropped.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: It would, perhaps, be better to get Clause 41 out of the way.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 42:
Power of Local Government Board to require town planning scheme.
42.—(1) Where the Local Government Board are satisfied that a town planning scheme ought to be made by a local authority, the Board may by order require the local authority to prepare and submit for their approval such a scheme, and if the scheme is approved by the Board to do all things necessary for enforcing the observance of the scheme or any provisions thereof effectively, and for executing any works which, under the scheme or under Part II of the Housing, Town Planning, &c., Act, 1909, the authority is required to execute.
(2) Any order made by the Local Government Board under this section shall have the same effect as a resolution of the local authority deciding to prepare a town planning scheme in respect of the area in regard to which the order is made.
(3) If the local authority fail to prepare a scheme to the satisfaction of the Board within such time as may be prescribed by the order, or to enforce the observance of the scheme or any provision thereof effectively, or to execute any such works as aforesaid, the Board may either authorise the county council to act, or may themselves act, in the place and at the expense of the local authority.
LORD DOWNHAM: Do I understand that on Report stage the noble and learned Lord will move to insert safeguards?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not tie myself to every word that is contained in the Act of 1909, but I think the idea that there should be some sort of local inquiry is reasonable, and I will agree to that.
LORD DOWNHAM: There should also be some definition of "land."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think I see what the noble Lord has in his mind, and I will deal with it on the Report stage.
LORD DOWNHAM: I shall certainly take a little time to consider this question, and by the time the Report stage comes on we shall have probably upon the Paper certain Amendments which may be put down to provide the safeguards that I think ought to be offered before we accept the clause.
LORD HARRIS: May I for explanation ask a question of the noble and learned Lord. Why have county councils suddenly
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had a new responsibility put upon them? Under the existing Acts the county councils are not responsible for invading an important borough and having to lay out a town planning scheme over land with which they have nothing to do, and in a town with whose affairs they have no concern whatever. Why is this liability suddenly thrust upon the county councils? The Government is imposing every day additional burdens upon the county councils, and in my opinion they are overdoing it. I therefore must protest unless a good explanation is forthcoming against this further liability being put upon the county councils.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Will the noble Lord tell me to what words in the Bill he refers?
LORD HARRIS: Subsection (3): "If the local authority fail to prepare a scheme," the Board may authorise the county council to act.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I understand that my noble friend's contention is that the county council ought not to be given the power to act in default of the local authority.
LORD HARRIS: It is a new provision.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I would point out that the county council is not acting in the first place, but is only acting in default, and this subsection is to avoid that unpleasant and rather difficult and cumbrous method employed under the Act of 1909 of using the power under mandamus. The proposal is that either a county council or the Board itself shall act in default of the local authority doing its duty. There is no particular mystery about it. Very often it may be quite convenient in the county that the county council should act in default of the local authority instead of the work being carried out by the central authority. I should have thought that my noble friend would have welcomed the suggestion that the county council should do the work instead of the central authority being brought in.
LORD HARRIS: What have the county councils to do with boroughs?
VISCOUNT PEEL: I am talking about the small local authorities in rural districts.
LORD HARRIS: But the boroughs are local authorities.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Non-county boroughs are local authorities, but if the county councils made a protest they would not be impressed with the duty of doing it.
LORD SHEFFIELD: I think this is a reasonable proposal. It is surely reasonable in a county, if a small urban district or if a rural district council refuse to act—and they may reasonably refuse to act, because the question of laying out roads may involve neighbouring little towns or two rural districts one with another and they cannot easily act in agreement—that the county council should act. I am sure that for county life it is very convenient that the county authority should take up the matter, and the local councils would I think prefer the county council rather than the Government to act. I do not think it is a burden on the county. All the county has to do is to plan out the scheme. The cost will fall on the local authorities.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I think the noble Lord has failed to grasp Lord Harris's point. The provision is that if the local authority fail to prepare a scheme the Board may act or it may authorise the county council to act. Supposing the local authority is a considerable borough, this puts the county council into the position of having to do that which it may be very unpleasant for it to do—take the place of the borough. I am not at all certain what the effect of the words "authorise the county council to act" is; whether it only gives the county council license to act or whether it will be construed to mean that the county council must act. I think the words are not carefully chosen. It is a distinct consideration whether or not this sort of intermediate authority should be introduced. As far as I mil aware it is a wholly new idea. It may be a good one, but it is a quite new one, and it ought to be very carefully considered before we introduce it. I imagine that there are a great many boroughs which will be extremely distressed if the county council were introduced upon them in this way.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I gather that under this proposal the Government do not intend the county council to act in default in the case of large boroughs.
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I admit that the words cover that, and I suggest to the Government that in that respect probably Clause 42 will require a little amendment. But when you come to, rural districts who might in certain eventualities be called upon to make a town planning scheme it does not seem unreasonable, if they do not do their work, that the county council should take the work over. That is in keeping with a. great deal of other legislation which Parliament has passed. There are many places where an obligation is laid upon a rural district and upon a small urban district, and if that obligation is not carried out the county council is called upon to act in the place of the authority concerned. If the clause were confined to a provision of that kind it would have my hearty support. I imagine that that is what the Government really intend, and if they would say that, they would between, this and Report stage reconsider the clause, in respect of the larger urban districts most, of the criticism on the clause would disappear. I have always, if I may say so, been a tremendous county council man. I believe in the county councils. I believe they are extremely successful bodies. They quite fulfil all the hope which Parliament had of them, and it is a good thing, that they should be called upon to act for the smaller local authorities who do not do their duty, but it ought not to apply to a considerable town, as that would be very inconvenient indeed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Marquess is entirely right. It is not the intention of the Government, and never was, that the county council should assume to act on behalf of the larger urban bodies. I agree also that ought to be made plaint and it shall be made plain. With reference, to what my noble and learned friend Lord Phillimore said I also agree with him. I do not think "authorise" is a term of art. I think it is ambiguous, and if this also, meets with your Lordships' approval I will see that the word is changed and a more suitable expression adopted before the Report stage.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, lines 4 and 5, leave out ("Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act") and insert ("Act of")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Page 34, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("or any member of the local authority")
Page 34, line 11, at end insert—

Section 21 (2)

Before the word "householders" there shall be inserted the words "justice of the peace or"

Page 34, lines 14 and 15, leave out ("or any member of the local authority")
Page 34, line 23, at beginning insert ("The word 'or' shall be inserted before the words make any rate' ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The Amendment in my name is a small but a useful one, and I believe the Government are willing to accept it.
VISCOUNT PEEL: They welcome it.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Unless your Lordships wish it I will not trouble to explain this Amendment, but in a sentence the object of it is to enable the Committees which can be appointed by the local authorities under the principle Act to co-opt other members to serve upon their bodies. That, of course, is a very well-known procedure in the county council, and it is a very valuable procedure, and I think it ought to be extended to these Committees who will act for the local authorities in most cases in respect of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 23, at beginning of line insert ("the words out of their own number, and ' ");and in line 24, at end insert ("after the words provided that a committee as appointed shall' there shall be inserted the words consist as to a majority of its members of members of the appointing local authority, and shall'").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 25, leave out ("Commissioner") and insert ("Commissioners").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should like to ask the Government what they intend to do with regard to the Report stage of the Bill. The noble and learned Lord will recognise that I have not tried to act in any hostile spirit to the Bill, but a good many points are left over for Report, and I hope the Government will give us a few days in which to draft Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Do noble Lords think that the interval between now and next Tuesday would be adequate? That would be a convenient date for the Government, and it would give us six days.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Will the Government give us till Thursday? It really is very difficult; we have so much to do now.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): I suggest putting the Report stage down for Tuesday, and to-morrow we shall see how the matter develops.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Certainly.
House resumed.

PALLIN'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a; Amendment made (Clause 6 deleted); Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

TRAINING OF DISABLED MEN.
LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN rose to call attention to the difficulties confronting local authorities in the training of men disabled and discharged from His Majesty's Forces, and to the obstacles placed in their way by local trade organisations; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in rising to make the Motion which stands in my name, I should like to adopt for it the description that has been given to the Bill which has just been under discussion, and which is described as an immediate and urgent matter. I venture to think that the subject which I have put down on the Paper also deserves immediate and urgent attention.
There are two considerations which I desire at the outset to put before your Lordships. In the first place, I should like to state emphatically that I hold, in common with many noble Lords, in very high esteem the work that has been done by trade unions in the past. No one can read the history of the trade union movement without being profoundly impressed with the immense benefits which have been secured, not only for their own members and the working classes generally, but also, in effect, for the well being of the nation as a whole. Labouring as the workers were under most unjust and unfair restrictions, cramped in every direction in their efforts to better the conditions under which they lived and worked, the Legislature very wisely, and rightly removed those disabilities under which they were bound, and secured for them a, position from which they have been enabled to fight with telling effect for the rights of their members. I yield to no one in the recognition of their services in the past, nor in acknowledging the debt which the country undoubtedly owes to them. I trust that in the remarks and the facts which I shall have to bring before your Lordships I shall not he misunderstood, nor accused of want of sympathy with the work of the trade unions.
I should like also to say that in raising this Question I do not suggest that the Government have done nothing in the matter. But I do suggest that the Government have not done enough, and that there has been a great deal of procrastination and want of forethought, and also, in effect, a deliberate ignoring of the advice that has been repeatedly given to them from well-informed quarters; and that they have waited until the matter has reached practically, a crisis before putting into effect those recommendations which have been made to them previously.
No doubt the noble Lord on the Government Bench who will answer may point out that at an early stage in the war inquiries were set on foot and schemes were drafted to try and avoid the deplorable conditions which had arisen with regard to wounded and disabled soldiers in the South African War, and also after practically every other war in the past. No doubt the Government have been confronted with an immense problem, out of all proportion with what has had to be faced before, in restoring men who have been in the Army to civil life. I do not
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minimise that difficulty, but I am entitled, I think, to claim that the very prolongation of the war has given, or should have given, time to those whose attention has been directed to this great problem during these years to realise the conditions that the creation of a national Army implied in the problem with which they had to deal, and further, to have enabled them to devise a method to cope in a more efficient and more rapid manner with this most important part of their duties, namely, how to deal with the disabled and injured men, disabled in the service of their country. I suggest that the action which we gather from the Press is contemplated by the Government is long overdue, and that the voice of public opinion—and informed public opinion—at the present time cannot be anything else but a powerful and helpful factor in succesfully dealing with the subject before the House.
I am sure all your Lordships have been greatly impressed in the course of the past week with the evidence given by Sir Douglas Haig before the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the question of Pensions. It is not within the scope of my Motion to deal at large either with the question of pensions, or medical boards, or unemployment pay, or the many points that were brought up and dealt with in the evidence of Sir Douglas Haig. But I desire to draw particular attention to the subject of the training of discharged and disabled soldiers and sailors, and the difficulties that occur in that respect when local bodies have actually to deal with the matter, and also—what necessarily goes with that subject—the difficulty of settling the disabled ex-Service men in employment after their training. I feel encouraged in the action I have taken in raising this Question by observing that this very point which I have just mentioned is one of those raised by the gallant Field-Marshal. I think we must all have been struck once again by the courage and disinterestedness which have always characterised him in dealing with the whole of this matter. And I am sure he will have gained a still higher place, if possible, in the affections and hearts of the people of this country on this very account.
Those of us who have not had the privilege of serving abroad, and who perhaps on that very account are the more anxious to see that the fairest and most generous treatment is secured for those who

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have borne the full brunt of the fighting and those who have been disabled in their country's service, will have read with the highest appreciation the frankand outspoken criticism of Sir Douglas Haig, while deploring the necessity for his making that criticism.
I do not think I need labour the point of the large number of cases of men still waiting for training; nor do I think it needs any words of mine, after what Sir Douglas Haig has said so recently, to emphasise the strength of the claim of those who have served and suffered upon the assistance and help of the country. From all parts local authorities and others report that there is in most respects practically a deadlock as regards the training of men in many of the industries they wish to pursue. These difficulties have been greatly increased by the multiplicity of offices which have until recently been responsible for directing this training—the Ministry of Pensions, the Ministry of Labour, the Board of Education, and the Board of Agriculture. All this has caused an immense amount of correspondence and over-lapping which has resulted in delaying action being taken in many of the cases. I am sure that we must all welcome the recent efforts of the Government to coordinate the machinery for dealing with the matter. The change, however, has been long overdue, though it has been repeatedly recommended; and. I am bound to say that I hear on all hands that there is very little improvement at the present time in the expedition with which cases are dealt.
I heard that repeated only this afternoon with regard to the question of the training of these disabled men in London itself. Perhaps it may not be quite fair to criticise that particular point in a sense; because it is only quite a short time since the new régime was inaugurated, and it must naturally take some little time for the Ministry of Labour to get the machinery into smooth working order. But at the same time there is every indication that before this duty was handed over to the Ministry of Labour no provision was made within the Ministry to organise itself to take on the new responsibilities that were about to be given to it—again, an example of want of foresight and forethought which I think we cannot but characterise as most deplorable in a matter of this nature. I would therefore urge upon His Majesty's Government to speed up the machinery
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that now exists. Speed is of the very essence of this matter. It is only by rapidly dealing with the cases as they come forward that you will avoid what undoubtedly exists at present—namely, that feeling almost of resentment, of impatience, and of unrest which undoubtedly exists among many of the disabled soldiers who are awaiting training in the trades for which their disabilities do not handicap them and in which they wish to employ their time.
I have said that in many parts of the country this matter has reached practically a deadlock. I dare say it is familiar to the noble Lord on the Government Bench that this is the case. For instance, in Essex, between November 1, 1918, and June 27 of this year, there were 286 disabled men who applied for training. So far only sixty have either received training or are at present undergoing training; and fifteen men have taken their names off the list because they are sick and tired of waiting for opportunities which never seem to come. This leaves, therefore, no fewer than 211 men on the waiting list in that county alone. Much the same proportion obtains all over the country. Your Lordships are familiar with the splendid work that is being done by the Lord Roberts Memorial Workshops. At the present time in London alone there are no less than eighty-five cases on their waiting lists. In Liverpool the number on the waiting list is still larger. I had information a few days ago from a town in Lancashire where they were informed by Liverpool that they were sorry they could ont take the men for training as they were full up, and would probably be so for several months to come. Why cannot the Government with regard to this and other efforts of a similar nature rope into their scheme these institutions which have proved their value and which are doing all they can to cope with this great problem? It is not for me I think to suggest how the thing should be done.
Take the case of the Lord Roberts Memorial Workshops. Could not something be done by the Government to subsidise them and enable them to start factories in places which are simply crying out for facilities for training disabled men? At the present time these workshops could be doubled with the greatest advantage; and the funds available for the Institution are nothing like what the workers there would desire. In view of the difficulties

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that the Pensions Committee have in organising, training, I think that is a consideration which is well worth the attention of the Government, and I hope that when the noble Lord answers me he will be able to give me some information as to whether there is any chance of the Government taking action on that line.
As I think I have already shown, there is great need for the general speeding up of the machinery that already exists; and the difficulty of getting support from the Ministry of Labour, the inactivity there in dealing with the different questions, constitute one of the great obstacles with which the local authorities are confronted. But there is another obstacle to which I draw attention in my Motion, which also has to be dealt with and which is a source of great searching of mind on the part of organisers—namely, the difficulty that occurs in certain cases (I believe it is only in certain cases) owing to the opposition of the local trade unions. I myself cannot believe that this is due to the feeling of the majority of those who belong to the trade unions, nor do I believe that it is the desire in many cases of those who represent the trade union movement here in London. At the same time, however, we are bound to face these facts, which are really painfully numerous and which come from every part of the country.
It is unnecessary, I think, for me to remind your Lordships of the case which Sir Douglas Haig mentioned at Southampton of a disabled soldier who had received two months training in a technical school and who, on receiving a certificate of efficiency, was offered employment, but the local trade union branch—in this case of the Boilermakers' Union—objected to his employment. I have a number of cases which have been sent to me from various places. There is the case at Sevenoaks, which was mentioned in the public Press last week, in which a doctor described his desire to start, in connection with a treatment centre for which he was responsible, a small carpenter's shop to educate the disabled men in the use of their injured limbs. He was advised, for the sake of the men, to get the support of the local carpenters' trade-union. He was invited to attend one of their meetings, which he did, but unfortunately it was decided to refer the matter to the Central Federation and since that moment, some weeks ago, he has not ventured to go on with his proposal and has heard nothing further
I would also instance a case for which I hope by now some; solution has been found. It is the case of three disabled soldiers for whom training had been arranged in painters and decorators work and who attended the local school of art for six weeks. The trade union concerned threatened a strike if those men were allowed to enter the practical workshop. This is a remarkable case. It is all the more remarkable because there was already in existence an agreement between employers and employees that discharged men must spend at least three years in their training before they could be recognised as trade unionists and receive the trade union rate of pay. Another case is one also in the same locality of Burnley in Lancashire. It is that of a disabled soldier who had an offer of training in "twisting" at a local mill and the offer of a frame when such training was completed. The trade union prohibited the training. Then, again, at least two men were offered training in haircutting and so on. The trade union nut their foot down and refused to allow flue training to be given. These are a few of the cases I can quote, and I will give one other. It occurred at Ramsgate and it has been alluded to in the Press. A partially disabled man was offered training, under the Ministry of Pensions scheme, with a firm in that town as a carpenter and joiner, and the local branch of the Carpenters and Joiners Union strongly objected.
There are, unfortunately, many cases of a similar nature, but I think, even though I have abbreviated my remarks, that I have mentioned a sufficient number of instances to justify urging His Majesty's Government to take the trade unions into their confidence and seriously setting to work to overcome, by mutual arrangements, the difficulties which some of the trade union regulations place in the way of this great problem. I think I may fairly say that these points and difficulties have been clear from the very outset. A member of the Government, Mr. George Barnes, in a recent message to the Comrades Journal, states that in October last he foresaw these difficulties. It seems to me an amazing thing to find the Government waiting and drifting, as I have already said, into this impasse before taking the obvious step of consulting the trade unions with a view to removing these difficulties. No one would wish to do anything to lower the standard of life in industry (a phrase of Mr. Barnes's),

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but I cannot think that the competition of the disabled men—the number of whom is limited and, from the very nature of the case, cannot increase but must be a diminishing one—can materially affect the unions in any way.
I cannot believe, and I do not believe, that, if this matter is fairly put before the trade unions, they will refuse to help those who have stood between them and devastation. May I quote again Sir Douglas Haig at Chester and associate myself with him in what he said there? He said that he would regard it as a national calamity if the various movements now on foot for the benefit of ex-service men should develop a political flavour. It is in this spirit that I have approached the subject and I Would once more urge the Government to let us have some definite information which will afford some encouragement to those who are working so hard and so assiduously on this subject—some information as to what steps they are taking to expedite the treatment of this problem. It seems to me that at the present time, from what is stated in the Press, there is undoubtedly a good deal going on; but, at the same time, the longer this state of things obtains there will be an increase among these men, who deserve the very best at the hands of the country, of unrest and uncertainty as to their future. It is on that account, and with the object of eliciting some information from the Government as to what they are doing, that I venture to make the Motion which stands in my name.
Moved, That Papers be laid before the House relating to the difficulties confronting local authorities in the training of men disabled and discharged from His Majesty's Forces, and to the obstacles placed in their way by local trade organisations.—(Lord O'Hagan.)
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I say a word or two? I think we ought to be grateful to the noble Lord for bringing this matter forward, and I do earnestly hope that it may be possible for the Government to make some announcement with regard to definite action that is being taken for the purpose of removing the unfortunate hostility which is displayed in some quarters by trade union officials towards the training of disabled men.
Several NOBLE LORDS. Hear, hear.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: It is little short of a scandal, and it is so utterly opposed to the ordinary generous instinct of the British working man that I cannot believe that this is a deliberately adopted policy on the part of the trade unions as a whole. What I believe is really the case is that it is due, partly, to suspicion—the natural suspicion which a number of working men have of the employers' class—and also due, to a very large extent, to that extreme body which, in too many cases, has captured the executives of the trade unions and which, led by certain gentlemen whom I need not name but who are well known to the British public at the present moment, are out for nothing else but to create trouble and disorder. They are out for the purpose of preaching the gospel of discontent in the hope of bringing about a revolution in some; form or another. Whether they produce discontent in the form of interfering with the unloading of ships, or delaying food transport, or whether they are interfering with railway transport, or whether (which is largely the case) they are doing everything they can by the striking of labour to interfere with the building of ships—in one way or another they are out to create trouble and discontent; and there is no more certain way of doing that at the present moment than by taking hold of the many grievances which exist among demobilised men, magnifying some and inventing others, and so adding to the volume of discontent which they try to produce. I believe that is part of a deliberate policy adopted by a considerable number of the extremists.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, the noble Lord has dealt with many subjects connected with the treatment of ex-soldiers and sailors, and particularly of disabled men. There is no difference of opinion, certainly in no responsible quarter, as to the great importance and necessity not only of giving these men a training—because that is only a portion of the business—but of providing openings for them in employment where they may utilise the training that has been obtained. My noble friend will admit that it is very important that these two matters should be brought into some; harmony, and that you should only train people for those different occupations in which you are pretty confident you will be able to find subsequent employment for them.

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From the speech of my noble friend one could not have gathered what great efforts have already been made by the Government or the elaborate machinery that has been set up in order to obtain these ends. He indulged in some rather general criticism, and said the machinery ought to be speeded up and the methods improved. With all these propositions one would cordially assent, and the Government themselves are quite conscious that they have not yet fully dealt with this problem of training and that a good deal still remains to be done in acquiring fresh factories and making fresh arrangements for the training of these men. Perhaps I might inform him that, it has been decided that when national factories are scheduled for disposal priority of occupation is to be given to the Departments responsible for the training of soldiers. A considerable number of factories have been scheduled, and steps have been taken to meet the need for more accommodation. Arrangements are being made to take these factories, and to use the local authorities for training and obtaining assistance from the requirements made by inanition training and institutes which are in the possession of the local authorities themselves.
But besides that, very elaborate arrangements carefully thought out are being entered into by the Government with the representatives of the trades themselves. My noble friend has criticised the trade unions and the actions of the trade unions because, in his opinion, they are not sufficiently sympathetic to the requirements of these disabled men, and seem, in certain cases, not to allow them to join their different industries and trades. I was glad to hear that he spoke in a different sense of the headquarters of the trade unions, and I am quite certain that the Minister of Labour, if he was here, would say that he had met with nothing but assistance, co-operation and sympathy from the heads of the trade unions themselves and that they were doing all they could to further the employment of these disabled men.
In order that your Lordships may understand some of the difficulties that arise, I ought to give a short account of the kind of machinery that is being set up in the different trades, because many of the difficulties of the subject arise on that point. Even before this work was handed over by the Ministry of Pensions to the Ministry of
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Labour there were set up in twenty-two of the principal trades, in which it was thought disabled men might be employed, associations, national associations, of employers and employed. The business of these associations was to consider what kind of training was to be given in these different trades to these disabled men—how long the training was to be; whether it was to be partly institutional; and how it was to be divided. It was decided by these committees that some long period of training must elapse before a man could be admitted to work in the different trades. They have, in very carefully drawn up agreements laid down the conditions under which these men should be trained, and the conditions under which they would be acceptable for entry into the different trade unions and associations when the training bad been gone through. It is obvious this must be done, because in that way is obviated any danger of friction, or subsequent friction, of allowing men to enter trades themselves after they have received the training.
Moreover, the Minister of Pensions on behalf of the Minister of Labour decided that they would only give their maintenance grant in the case of those persons who had been trained under these particular regulations entered into among the different trades in order to secure perfect harmony of action. Another function was laid upon these committees. It was of seeing that proper safeguards were taken against the overflooding of the labour market in particular trades. When my noble friend takes certain instances—and I cannot deal with particular instances without inquiry—and suggests that the action of these particular branches may be due to some kind of malevolence or selfishness, I think he ought to take this into account; that it is part of the duty of these associations to see that the supply of labour coming into these different trades is not greater than the demand, and that it may be not malevolence but sympathy with these men which says "no more shall come into this particular training than can be absorbed into the industry itself."
Then there are in each district these local supervisory committees, whose special duty it is to see that everything is being carried out in these training centres in accordance with the conditions laid by the agreements with the associations, and also to advise these national associations when in their opinion enough persons have

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been taken into the different training centres to absorb the possible vacancies there will be in the trades themselves. It is a very carefully thought out scheme, and the noble Lord will see that the whole basis of it is this—to work with the responsible trade unions themselves, and to conform with their reasonable requirements. It is true that there has been some friction in certain localities, and I think it is rather easy to see how it has arisen. When people in particular localities see a number of men out of work in a particular trade they may not unreasonably say that it is unwise to introduce an elaborate system of training for men who, when trained, may only go on to the streets and be unable to find employment in that district. It is easy to see how action of that kind may be misinterpreted and how various difficulties have arisen.
I might give a case from the leather goods trade. In that trade some of the unions have passed a resolution that for the present no more men shall be brought for training to the particular centres. Take another little difficulty, in the gold, silver and jewellery trade. In that trade the amount of employment must very largely depend on the extent to which the men who have been interned during the war in this country are allowed to return to the trade, and I understand that if they are not allowed to return there may be room for some 2,000 of these disabled men. There is another case where the local branches have been extremely unwilling to co-operate with the Government because they had a special quarrel of their own with the Government. It is in the brush-making trade. In that trade the local unions were much annoyed with the Government for training interned German prisoners in brush-making, and some friction has arisen which has caused some delay in accepting or making one of these arrangements.
I am not defending all these troubles and frictions which have arisen, and I dare say that more perfect persons would be able to rise above them, but these are the kind of difficulties which are being dealt with, and there again I must repeat that the trade unions at the centre are doing their very best to remove these causes of friction, because they are very sensible of the desirability of getting these men trained and brought into the trades themselves. There is one very important trade where there may be very large openings in the
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future. One of the difficulties of persuading men to admit these people is that they are afraid that the present conditions of employment in their trade are not likely to last. In the building trade present conditions are not only likely to last but there is bound to be a great demand, and there, in certain branches, might be found openings for disabled men. It must be understood, however, that many of them are unable to go in for active trades, and therefore not only the trade but the operations within the trade have to be carefully selected by the Advisory Committees, as suitable for the employment of these men. They also have to select the men themselves, in order to ensure that they are men likely to take advantage of the opportunities of employment within the trade.
So that all one can say in reply to my noble friend is this, that these difficulties are being examined, that they are not neglected by the trade unions, and there is, I think, a gradual lessening of the small local friction which may be said to take place. I am not yet able to announce any settlement in the building trade, because a conference took place yesterday, but I hope that it may be possible to absorb a good many men into that great and expanding trade. I do not think I can usefully add anything, except to give this general assurance to my noble friend, that the Government are extremely alive to all the difficulties that he has pointed out, and that they are most grateful for the co-operation received from the trades unions, and that they believe that at the rate of progress which is now being made these lamentable cases to which the noble Lord has referred—I assume them, because I have not looked into them—will soon be things of the past.
LORD BERESFORD: The noble Viscount has given a very ingenious defence to the charges of the noble Lord below me, but the fact still remains that a war which lasted nearly five years is now over, and there does not appear to have been any organisation whatever to look after these men or to start them in business, until just lately. The noble Viscount shakes his head, but the fact remains that the trade unions will not allow these men to enter their trades. Is it possible that the conditions are too high? I am sure the working men of the country are most generous. We are bound to keep our promises to these men, and I hope that Lord Peel will

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endeavour to speed matters up and get easier conditions from the trade unions about these men, because the cases that have been made public have had a bad effect throughout the army. I only make this protest in order to support my noble friend below me, and i hope the Government will increase the speed, and if possible have a Committee of the Government and of trade unions to see whether more cannot be done.
LORD O'HAGAN: I do not wish to detain your Lordships more than two minutes, but I should like to say that I am much obliged for the remarks which have fallen from the noble Viscount. I think that if what he has stated to-night had been made more widely known it would have had something to do towards removing the sense of injustice and uncertainty which undoubtedly exists at the present time. Of course I quite appreciate the force of his remarks with regard to the action of the trade unions, or possibly the action of certain trade unions, where the market for labour is already overflooded, and I purposely made no allusion to trades where that is common knowledge. With regard, however, to the building trade, for instance, there is, I regret to say, a considerable amount of opposition locally to men joining that trade, which the noble Viscount has mentioned as being one which might readily absorb those who are physically fit and trained for some or other of its various branches.
I am sure we are delighted to hear the definite assurance of the formation of associations of employers and employees, and that the number is as large as he has stated. I can only hope that my action in bringing this question before your Lordships—action which was taken in the spirit which I hope was recognised—will help and not impede the efforts which are being made at present by the Government, and those in the trade union movement who are loyally co-operating with them, to remove the obstacles to the training of these men. As to local opposition and friction, I only hope that local opinion and public opinion throughout the country will strengthen the hands of the Government and of the leaders of the trade union movement in removing this gross abuse of power and privilege on the part of a very small section of the community.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PRIVATE BILLS, ETC.
[From Minutes of July 8.]
BRITISH AND CONTINENTAL BANK BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 2nd and the 3rd of. June last discharged, and Bill committed.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the said Bill do meet the Lord's Committee in Committee Room A on Thursday, the 10th instant, at half-past Two o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.

BECCLES WATERWORKS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned front the Commons, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

London County Council (General Powers).

Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power.

Also the Certificates that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Pensions Funds (Cardiff) Provisional Order.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

CITY OF LONDON POLICE BILL.
The Order of yesterday's date for the Second Reading discharged, and Bill referred to the Examiners.
WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
CLOWES SETTLED ESTATES BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
EDINBURGH AND LEITH CORPORATION GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Third Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.

RAT DESTRUCTION BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a on Thursday the 24th instant (The Lord Aberconway).
House adjourned at ten minutes before eight o'clock.