Sitting of 7 August 1919

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Rotherham Corporation Bill,
Lords Amendment considered, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 5th August, and agreed to.
Bournemouth Gas and Water Bill,
Sheffield Corporation Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 5th August, and agreed to.
Dundee Harbour and Tay Ferries Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Greenock Port and Harbours Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Lancashire and Yorkshire and London and North Western Railway Companies Bill,
Order [4th June] referring the Lancashire and Yorkshire and London and North Western Railway Companies Bill to the Examiners read, and discharged.
Ordered, That the Bill be withdrawn.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

TAXES AND IMPOSTS.
Return ordered,
"showing for 1918–19 the Rates of Duties, Taxes, or Imposts collected; quantities or amounts taxed; gross receipts from each duty, etc.; and the net receipts and appropriations; also showing for each of the ten years ending the 31st day of March, 1919, the aggregate gross receipts derived from all such Duties, Taxes, or Imposts; aggregate net receipts; charges of collection; and the produce after deducting these charges; with Notes to show any changes in the Taxes, Duties, or Imposts, consequent upon the
514
acceptance of the Budget proposals of 1919–20 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 434, of Session 1914)."—[Mr. George Thorne.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPOINTMENTS.
  Mr. GRATTAN DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any steps are being taken to revise the system of appointments to the staffs of British Ambassadors, and Consul-Generalships abroad whereby fitness, knowledge of the language of the country to which such person is accredited, and special commercial and industrial knowledge will be regarded as essential; and whether it is contemplated making such selections from the ranks of qualified Labour representatives?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): The measures taken to modify the system of appointments to the Diplomatic, Commercial, and Consular Services have already been explained in the numerous replies which I have given in the House. Every consideration is given to the special qualifications required for certain posts. The qualifying examination is open and competitive, and the final selection rests with a Committee on which all interests, including Labour, are represented.
  Mr. DOYLE: Would my hon. Friend answer the last part of the question?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: The hon. Gentleman asks whether it is contemplated making such selections from the ranks of qualified Labour representatives. These appointments are not made from any class in particular, but by way of competitive examination.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: Has there been an instruction to this Committee that no more appointments will be made in any case where the applicant is not British-born or the son of a British father?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: This is the existing rule in the case of Diplomatic appointments and salaried Consular appointments.

  RUSSIA.

    EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state what further steps have been taken to bring about an exchange of private soldiers who are prisoners of war in Soviet Russia; and whether he is aware that the Soviet Government has expressed willingness to exchange these men?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The exchange of the British prisoners in Russia is still the subject of discussion with the Bolshevik Government, and certain further proposals have been received from that Government which are now under examination.
    I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that no effort is being spared to secure the release, at the earliest possible moment, of all British subjects detained in Russia.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can. he inform me where the hitch is exactly, and what is the obstacle that prevents the exchange of these British soldiers?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: It is a very difficult matter to conduct these negotiations, but I am not aware of any special obstruction at the present moment.
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: Can he say in what manner these negotiations are being carried out?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I think my hon. and gallant Friend knows that they are conducted by means of wireless with Moscow.

    SOVIET GOVERNMENT.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to how many Greek Orthodox priests have been done to death by the Soviet Government in Central Russia; and whether a single in stance is known of the said Government having dealt in the same way with any Jewish rabbi?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state what steps are being taken by the
    516
    British Government or by the League of Nations to put a stop to the pogrom of the Christian population in Central Russia, which has now been going on for the last eighteen months under the auspices of the Russian Soviet Government?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: His Majesty's Government are not in a position to exercise any influence on the actions of the Russian Soviet Government inside Bolshevik Russia. As far as the League of Nations is concerned I would remind my hon. Friend that that body still remains to be constituted.
    Mr. RAPERasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the following are the leading representatives of the Russian Soviet Government, Messrs. Trotsky, whose real name is Bronstein, Zinovieff, real name Apfelbaum, Kamenev, real name Rosenfeldt, Radek, real name Sobelson, Yoffe, Steklov, real name Nakhamkes, Sokolnikov, real name Brillant, Posern, Unshlikht, Grinberg, Skripnik, and Litvinov, real name Finkelstein?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Before my hon. Friend answers may I ask whether this and the two previous questions are intended to stir up anti-Jewish feeling and provoke pogroms in Russia?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: The hon. Gentleman who asked them is better able to answer that question than I am.
    In reply to the question on the paper, I understand that the persons mentioned by my hon. Friend are some of the leading representatives of the Russian Soviet Government. I am, however, unable to state whether the names given are all correct.
    Mr. RAPER: Is it a fact that the majority of these men are of Jewish origin, and further that these Jewish criminals, whom every decent Jew disowns, constitute the National Government in Central Russia?
    Lieut.-Colonel W. GUINNESS: May I ask whether many of these men have not got strong German connections, and that the efforts they have made to conceal their German origin are very strong evidence of their underground connection with our former enemies?
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: I think the facts as to the Soviet Government in Russia are very generally understood.
    Brigadier-General CROFT: Is not Peter the Painter a trusted councillor?

    CENTRAL RUSSIA (GERMAN EXPLOITATION).
    Mr. RAPERasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a very powerful syndicate of German banks has been formed, under the leadership of the Deutsche Bank, for the economical exploitation of Central Russia, and that this syndicate has recently sent a special commission to negotiate with the Bolshevist Government with regard to the export of grain and raw materials from Russia and the import of German manufactured goods into Russia; and whether the British Government will leave the initiative of trade with Russia to Germany without attempting a vigorous commercial counter-offensive in those parts of Russia which have row been freed from Bolshevist domination?
    Colonel Sir HAMAR GREENWOOD(Department of Oversea Trade): I have been asked to reply to this question. I have no information in regard to the first part of the question beyond what has appeared in the Press. As, however, was stated in the House in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Hull on Tuesday, the 5th, existing conditions are understood to make actual trade with Central Russia physically impossible at the present time.
    As regards the second part of the question, His Majesty's Government are fully alive to the importance of promoting trade with the parts of Russia which are free from Bolshevik control, and are devoting special and constant attention to the best means of doing this in the abnormal conditions which prevail. One special measure which has recently been put into force for this purpose is the provision of insurance facilities by the Government for goods exported to General Denikin's area and Russian goods exported from there in return.
    Mr. RAPER: Have the Government not considered it serious enough to assure themselves as to whether it is a fact that this commission has actually been appointed and sent to Russia by the German Deutsche Bank?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: In answer to that question, I would point out that it is exceedingly difficult to get accurate information through Government channels as to what is going on in Moscow and Central Russia.
    Captain W. BENN: Is it a fact that, while we are carrying on a war with Russia, the Germans are taking the trade away from us?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I cannot give any definite answer to an indefinite question of that kind.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Can you expect to trade with Russia while British ships are bombarding Russian ports?
    Sir H. GREENWOOD: I should be very glad to help hon. Members in their desire to promote trade if they will assist me in raising the necessary finance.

  BRITISH REPRESENTATIVE AT BUDA PESTH.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is a British representative at Buda Pesth; if not, whether any representative is on the way; whether there is any British representative with the Roumanian Army before Buda Pesth; and whether it is intended to recognise and treat with the present Hungarian Government?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: General Gorton has been appointed British Military Representative at Buda Pesth, where he now is as one of an Inter-Allied Commission of four generals appointed by the Peace Conference.
  I have no information whether there is any British representative with the Roumanian Army before Buda Pesth, but General Greenly, who is the head of the Special Military Mission to the King of Roumania, will doubtless detail an officer for the purpose if he considers it necessary.
  The position is still too uncertain for me to give any definite reply to the last part of the question, and, in any case, the decision will be taken by the Allied Representatives in Paris, who are actively considering the situation.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can he assure me that all steps will be taken by our military representative to stop any thing in the nature of a White Terror in Buda Pesth, and have instructions been given to that effect?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: I have no reason to apprehend anything of the kind.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Cannot representations be made to General Gorton that a White Terror would be most disadvantageous at the present time?
  An HON. MEMBER: A Red Terror!
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: We have had enough Red Terrors without having any White Terrors.
  Mr. A. SHAW(by Private Notice) asked the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether it is a fact that Roumanian troops have disregarded a request contained in the telegram from M. Clemenceau and are now in occupation of Buda Pesth; whether there is any truth in the report that excesses are being committed by the troops in the city, and what steps are being taken to regularise the situation?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: It is not correct to say that the Roumanian troops have disregarded M. Clemenceau's request. The facts are as follow:
  On 13th June telegrams were sent to the Government of Bela Kun and to the Czecho-Slovak and Roumanian Governments, laying down certain frontiers behind which the two latter Armies were requested to withdraw as soon as the Hungarian Government had complied with the terms of the Armistice. The Hungarian Government under Bela Kun did not fulfil their part of the covenant, and thus the proposals lapsed, especially in view of the fact that the Hungarian troops attacked the Roumanian Army.
  The Roumanian troops have now entered Buda Pesth, but we have no official information as to a formal occupation of the city.
  I am not aware what truth there may be in the reports of excesses committed by the Roumanian troops. Our information is to the effect that they have observed good order, and I hesitate to express any opinion on this point until I am in receipt of further information. An Inter-Allied Military Mission has been sent to Buda Pesth and is believed to have entered the city.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS (CASE FOR RECONSIDERATION).
    Mr. ALFRED SHORTasked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that Private R. W. Pitt, of 24, Foster Street, Wednesbury, late No. 49752, 23rd Lancashire Fusiliers, A Company, was certified by a medical board at the date of demobilisation to suffer 70 per cent. disability; whether he is aware that he was wounded in the leg and chest, that he carries tubes in his side, and that a later medical board submitted there was no disability; whether he is aware that a pension has been refused; and whether, in view of this divergence of opinion, he will arrange for him to appear before a special medical board?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Colonel Sir James Craig): There was nothing in the official papers on which this case was considered to show that he carried tubes in his side, but the evidence in this case is so conflicting that my right hon. Friend has given instructions for Private Pitt to-be re-examined at once by a medical board.

  IRELAND.

    STREET COLLECTIONS WITHOUT PERMIT.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lord HENRY CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many prosecutions for street collecting without permit have been instituted in Ireland in each year since the passing of the Act 6 and 7 Geo. V., c. 31; how many of these cases in each year were tried at Petty Sessions, by courts-martial, or by other tribunal, respectively; how many cases in each year resulted in convictions; how many of those convicted in each year were fined, imprisoned, bound to peace or good behaviour, or otherwise punished, respectively; whether in any of these cases the collections were proved to be for bogus charities, against which the Act was understood to be directed; and, if so, in how many?
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry): With the Noble Lord's permission, I will publish the reply, which is rather long and in tabular form, in the Official Report.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Will he answer the last part of the question, as to whether in any of these cases the collections were proved to be for bogus charities, against which the Act was understood to be directed?
    Mr. HENRY: The hon. Gentleman will find that dealt with in a note to the table.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: But surely a note to the table cannot answer whether the Act

    Period.

    Total No. of cases tried.

    No. of case tried at Petty Sessions.

    No. of case tried by Resident Magistrates out of petty Sessions.

    No. of case tried by Courts under Criminal Law and Procedure Act.

    No. of case in which convictions were obtained.

    No. of cases dismissed.

    No. of Persons fined.

    No. of Persons imprisoned in default of payment of fine

    No. of Persons ordered to be imprisoned without fine.

    No. of Persons cautioned.

    No, of Persons ordered to find bail to keep the Peace.

    No. who gave bail.

    No. ordered to be imprisoned in default.

    1916

    …

    2

    2

    —

    —

    2

    —

    2

    2

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1917

    …

    140

    140

    —

    —

    73

    67

    66

    16

    —

    4

    3

    —

    1918

    …

    74

    74

    —

    —

    49

    25

    53

    18

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1919 (to 31st July)

    …

    165

    149

    11

    5

    142

    6

    132

    2

    20

    2

    3

    31

    None of these cases were tried by courts-martial, and none of the cases were the collections proved to be for bogus charities. In the great majority of cases the collections were for Sinn Fein purposes, and the persona concerned were prosecuted for disobeying the Jaw by collecting without a permit.
    Statement giving the information as regards the Dublin Metropolitan Police districts:

    Year.

    Number prosecuted

    Number convicted.

    Fined.

    Other punishments.

    1916

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1917

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1918

    66

    64

    48

    16

    1919 (to 31 July)

    58

    57

    46

    11

    All these cases were tried before the Dublin police magistrates, and none of the collections were being made for bogus charities.

    MR. BRYAN SHANAHAN (IMPRISONMENT).
    Major GLYNasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it is the case that, at Grantstown, county Tipperary, on 9th June, an inhabitant, Mr. Bryan Shanahan, was sentenced to four months'
    522
    is being used for purposes which Parliament never intended?
    Mr. HENRY: He will find that the question of bogus charities is fully dealt with.
    The following is the answer referred to in Mr. Henry's reply:
    The following statement gives the information asked for as regards the several counties in Ireland:
    imprisonment for being suspected of having an intention to commit an illegal act; whether, if this is the case, he will state further particulars that led to this sentence being passed; and whether, if it is not the case, every means will be taken to deny the report, which has received considerable circulation?
    Mr. HENRY: Mr. Bryan Shanahan was arrested at Grantstown, under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, on the 5th May last for having in his possession military property and refusing to give his name. He was discharged on the 15th May as it was decided there was not sufficient evidence against him. He was brought before a resident magistrate on 7th June, who ordered him to give sureties for good behaviour, or in default to be imprisoned for four months. Mr. Shanahan, who is a lieutenant in the Irish Volnteers, refused to recognise the Court, and was ordered to be imprisoned for four months.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: How does it come about that, having been discharged, he was again brought up before a resident magistrate, and what was the charge on the second occasion?
    Mr. HENRY: Under the law, both in England and Ireland, if a person is bound

    523
    over to be of good behaviour and keep the peace, no charge is necessary against him, as it is not regarded as punishment. The law is the same in both countries.
    Captain ORMSBY-GORE: Then he can be liable to be sentenced to four months' imprisonment, although there is no charge?
    Mr. HENRY: All that is necessary is for him to give security to be of good behaviour, and he will be released.
    Major Earl WINTERTON: Is it not a fact that this man is a self-confessed rebel, and he refuses to recognise the authority of the Irish Court? That is the answer.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that this man, after being acquitted of one charge, was sentenced to four months' imprisonment on a second charge?
    Mr. HENRY: No, Sir, he was discharged on the second occasion.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Was it the same charge the second time?
    Mr. HENRY: No.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: What was it? You know it was the same charge.

    SEIZURE OF MOTOR CYCLE.
    Mr. MacVEAGHasked on what grounds the police have seized a motor cycle, the property of Mr. J. Braniff, at Seavanghan, near Crossgor, county Down?
    Mr. HENRY: A permit to keep a motor cycle was refused to John Braniff on the ground that the cycle would be likely to be used for an unlawful purpose.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Would the Attorney-General kindly tell me on what ground the cycle was likely to be used for an unlawful purpose?
    Mr. HENRY: Because he and his family were known to be active members of the Sinn Fein organisation.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is not a shadow of foundation for that statement? I do not know where he gets his information.

    DEATHS FROM SHOOTING.
    Mr. MacVEAGHasked whether the police-constable who fired at and killed
    524
    Michael Walsh at Ballinagool, Dungarvan, has been put on trial; and, if so, before what tribunal and with what result?
    Mr. HENRY: Constable McCarthy, the constable referred to, was brought before the resident magistrate, but, after careful consideration of the case and the verdict of the coroner's jury, my predecessor, the late Attorney - General, decided there should be no prosecution.
    Mr. MacVEAGHasked under what circumstances Patrick Stoddert was shot dead near Kilkee; whether the soldier who fired the shot admitted that he fired to kill; whether the military officer gave orders that he was to fire to kill; and whether the officer and the soldier have been brought to justice?
    Mr. HENRY: At about 4.30 p.m. on 29th June, one of the sentries at Kilkee Camp observed Patrick Stoddert on the fence surrounding the camp. The fence is about 8 feet high, and no civilians are allowed to trespass in the camp. The man was repeatedly challenged by the sentry, but without effect. The sentry pointed his rifle at the man, who took no notice, and then fired, and the man dropped off the fence. The man was taken charge of by a stretcher party and carried into the camp, and his wound dressed by the military doctor. He was removed to Kilrush Hospital on 29th June, and died there on 1st July. A Court of Inquiry was held, and found that the sentry acted in accordance with his duty, and was not to blame. The sentry-did not admit that he fired to kill.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Is it a fact that it was proved at the inquest that this man was deaf and did not hear the warning given by the sentry? Will the right hon. Gentleman also tell me whether he has read the evidence, and, if so, how he-arrives at the conclusion that the officer did not admit that he gave orders to kill?.
    Mr. HENRY: So far as the statement as to the man being deaf is concerned, I am not aware that any such statement was made.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Yes, it was.
    Mr. HENRY: As regards the other question, the information I have given was communicated to me by the military officers.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Then they have communicated false information.
    Mr. MacVEAGHasked under what circumstances Mr. Murphy, a commercial traveller, was shot dead in Dundalk; and whether the man who fired the fatal shot has been put on trial?
    Mr. HENRY: The constabulary authorities had information that the Irish Volunteers had arranged an extensive raid for arms on the night of the 4th June. Picquets consisting of police and military were posted at four points on the Dundalk to Newry road, and about 11.45 p.m. a motor lorry coming from the Newry direction was challenged by one of the picquet. This car contained the late Mr. Matthew Murphy. The driver of the car was warned to proceed slowly, as he might be stopped on the way to Dundalk. Later on, the forward sentry of a picquet nearer to Dundalk observed a car approaching him from the Newry direction. The sentry challenged loudly three times, and the driver of the car ignored the challenge and drove past the sentry, whereupon all the members of the sentry group, who were about 50 yards behind the sentry, challenged loudly. The car did not stop. Three members of the group fired at the radiator of the car, one of the shots wounding Mr. Murphy in the leg. He was removed to the County Louth Infirmary, and died on the 7th June. No action has been taken against the men concerned.
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Is it suggested that Mr. Murphy was engaged in any illegal work?
    Mr. HENRY: No, Sir, except in relation to his conduct in passing the sentry; but on that night, as I have already stated, information of an extensive raid for arms was given to the authorities.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Has any expression of regret been sent by the Government to this unfortunate man's relatives?
    Mr. HENRY: I am not able to answer that question?
    Captain W. BENN: Were the occupants of this car threatening the life or safety of anybody? Had they any arms?
    Mr. HENRY: No, Sir, but they passed a sentry and were challenged on at least three or four occasions, and they insisted on passing the sentry.
    An HON. MEMBER: Were they deaf?
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Was there any reason to believe they heard the challenge at all? Have the Government admitted that this was an innocent man who was shot, and have they offered compensation?
    Mr. HENRY: I am not aware that any such offer has been made.

    SHOT GUNS (FARMERS).
    Mr. E. KELLYasked on what princple the farmers in certain parts of Ireland are allowed to have shot guns for the protection of crops and farmers in other parts are prohibited; whether, even in the same county, one district inspector recognises every bonâ-fide application, whilst another district inspector rejects every application; and whether any effort is made to obtain uniformity of administration?
    Mr. HENRY: Permits to carry arms are issued to persons in the various counties of Ireland by the county inspectors of those counties, under the authority of the competent military authority. In issuing these permits, they have to take into consideration the state of the neighbourhood in which the applicant for arms lives, his suitability to receive a permit, the probability of any raid to take his arms from him and the probability of his being able to resist any such raid. Even in the same county the state of the districts vary. One district may be in a peaceful condition, while in a neighbouring district a state of affairs may exist which renders it unsafe for the county inspector to grant permits. It is the county inspector, not the district inspector, who issues the permits. This secures uniformity of administration throughout the county.

    ATTACKS BY ARMED MEN (COUNTY CLARE).
    Mr. MOLESasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the police barracks at Broadford, county Clare, were attacked on Sunday morning last by a band of twenty armed men who fired at the barracks for over an hour; whether five police were in the barracks, one of whom was injured; whether the barracks were riddled by rifle fire; and whether any person has been apprehended in connection with this incident?
    Mr. HENRY: The facts are as stated, No person has been arrested. The constable was slightly injured.
    Mr. MOLESasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a band of men a few days ago visited the railway transport depot at Greenore, broke into a lock-up store, and seized three sacks containing military service rifles addressed to the commanding officer, Royal Artillery, Dundalk; whether any trace of the missing rifles has been discovered; and whether any arrests in connection with the affair have been made?
    Mr. HENRY: The facts are as stated. The missing rifles have not yet been traced; inquiry is proceeding. No arrests have been made.

  INTERNMENT.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when former enemy subjects who have not been found guilty of criminal acts, and who are married to British-born women, will be released from internment?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): Arrangements are in progress for the release of these men as soon as may be after they have been recommended by the Advisory Committee for exemption from repatriation.

  GERMANS (DEPORTATION).
  Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked the Home Secretary whether, in accordance with the declared policy of His Majesty's Government to deport all Germans whose certificates of naturalisation have been revoked, it is intended to deport Caroline Hanemann; and, if not, what are the special circumstances which, in the opinion of the Government, entitled her to exemption under this rule?
  Mr. SHORTT: As I informed the hon. Member the other day, I do not propose to make a deportation order in the case of Caroline Hanemann. As I explained to the House when this question was raked on the Adjournment on the 6th May last, I am satisfied that this woman is able to give trained assistance of a character essential to the health of an invalid; she has been resident in this country for twenty-nine years, and is entirely inoffensive. Had she been of German nationality in 1916, these circumstances would have entitled her to exemption from repatriation.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me why, having regard to the splendid qualifications of this lady, she was denaturalised?
  Mr. SHORTT: I have already told my hon. Friend that I never ask the Advisory Committee for their reasons, but I do know there was no question of disaffection, disloyalty, or any danger to this country involved.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Then the denaturalisation was purely a fantastic act on the part of the Committee?
  Mr. SHORTT: The hon. Member will form his own view.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEY: I have.

  REVOLUTIONARY PUBLICATION (POLICE ACTION).
  Brigadier-General CROFTasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a leaflet distributed in Nottingham and printed by the New Press, Princes Street, Edinburgh, containing the words, "Put no trust in Parliament and get ready for the revolution"; and what action he proposes to take?
  Mr. SHORTT: My attention has already been called to this leaflet. It contravenes the law, and instructions have been sent to the police as to the action to be taken.

  POLICE STRIKE (DISCHARGED SOLDIERS).
  Mr. MACMASTERasked the Home Secretary how many discharged soldiers have the Government taken on to replace the policemen who recently deserted their posts of duty?
  Mr. SHORTT: All the men who have been recruited in the Metropolitan Police to replace those who recently refused duty have served in the War, either with the Navy, Army, Air Force, or Mercantile Marine; and I understand that this is true-also of the other police forces concerned.

  DISCHARGED AND DEMOBILISED SOLDIERS.
  Mr. GRUNDYasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been

  529
  drawn to the fact that, at the usual monthly branch meeting of the National Federation of Discharged and Demobilised Sailors and Soldiers, held at the Royal Picture Palace, Rotherham, on the 3rd August, two police officers were present at the instigation of their superior officer to take a report of the meeting, and whether, seeing this was a private meeting, he will call for a report on the matter?
  Mr. SHORTT: From a report I have received from the Chief Constable it appears that two police officers attended this meeting owing to a misunderstanding as to the nature of the meeting. They withdrew as soon as objection was taken to their presence, and it does not seem to me necessary to attach any significance to the incident.

  POLICE PENSIONERS.
  Major COLFOXasked the Home Secretary what would be the annual cost to the country if police pensioners who retired before 1918 were to be treated as regards pensions for themselves or their widows in the same way as those now retiring; and whether he will say what would be the estimated annual cost five, twenty, and fifteen years hence?
  Mr. SHORTT: If the pensions of men who retired from the Metropolitan Police before the present year were increased to the same rates as those of men now retiring, the cost would be £950,000 a year, and for the whole of England and Wales the cost would not be less than £2,500,000 a year. There are no materials now available on which the charge for future years, or the cost of granting pensions to the widows of these men cold be calculated.

  RHODESIA.

    LAND INQUIRY (COSTS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Rhodesian Legislative Council passed a resolution whereby the costs of preparing the land inquiry for the inhabitants and people of Rhodesia were to be defrayed from administrative revenue; and whether he can state the amount of the expenditure incurred by the white settlers and natives, respectively?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Lieut.-Colonel Amery): A resolution was passed by the Legislative Council of Southern Rhodesia in 1914 requesting the Administration to provide a sum of £5,000 to defray the cost of presenting the case of the inhabitants and people of Rhodesia to the Privy Council; out the total cost of the case presented by the elected members amounted ultimately, I understand, to about £10,000. The costs incurred by the Anti-Slavery and Aborigines Protection Society in respect of the case presented by them on behalf of certain natives amounted, I believe, to about £7,000.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Am I to understand from that answer that the costs incurred by the white settlers have been paid out of administrative revenue, and the costs incurred by those who represented the natives, have not been so met?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: I have explained it. Up to £5,000 the costs incurred by the elected members on behalf of the inhabitants of Rhodesia have, so far, been met out of moneys provided; but the whole question as to administrative revenue will come before Lord Cave's Commission. The cost of the case presented by the independent body, the Aborigines Protection Society, have been paid by themselves.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Although the natives contribute to this administrative revenue not one penny-piece has been used to protect their interests, which have been left to a private body of people?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: Well, Sir, I cannot accept that for a moment. The fact that the elected members are elected in the main by the white settlers, and that only a small number of natives have the franchise at the moment, does not necessarily mean that if the issue had gone in favour of the view of the elected members that the interests of the natives would have been neglected. These interests are, under Order in Council, fully safeguarded by the Crown; that position existed before, and obtains to-day.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Why are the natives not getting their costs paid; are they not the original inhabitants of the country?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: It is not a question of costs to the natives. A philanthropic society, being of opinion, for its own reasons, that the interests of

    531
    the natives were not sufficiently safeguarded, not even by the Crown, introduced their own case in Court—which is their own affair—and they have paid for it. Even so, I think the interests of the natives are, and will be, fully safeguarded by the Crown.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not the fact that the Aborigines Protection Society put their case before the Court, and provided it with the facts on which their judgment was based?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: No, Sir. I think the society offered to put their case, and the Court was quite willing to hear it.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: That is not so.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Seeing that the work of the Aborigines Protection Society served a very useful purpose in bringing the facts before the Court, should they not have had some of the costs they incurred?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: I am only trying to make the position clear. The interests of the natives are protected and safeguarded by the Crown; in which respect they are as well off as before hearing the advice of the Aborigines Protection Society.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Why, then, was not the evidence of the Aborigines Protection Society ruled out of Court?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Any further questions had better be put down.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the British South Africa Company has refused to allow the Legislative Council of Rhodesia to pay the expenses incurred by the natives in preparing evidence for the Rhodesian land inquiry, and has in a written statement declared that such costs should be paid by the philanthropic public; whether this attitude has at any time received the approval of His Majesty's Government; and, if not, whether a proposal would be sympathetically considered to submit to Lord Cave's Commission the reasons which exist for making the costs of the natives, like those of other parties to the inquiry, a public charge?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: I am aware that the British South Africa Company
    532
    have refused to ask the Legislative Council of Southern Rhodesia to vote the costs incurred by the Anti-Slavery and Aborigines-Protection Society in presenting the case to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on behalf of certain natives. The case was taken up by the society entirely on its own responsibility, and neither the present Secretary of State nor his predecessor has felt able to take any action in the matter. I understand that Lord Cave's Commission have agreed to hear the society upon such matters as may come within the terms of reference to the Commission.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether it is a fact that the Legislative Council of Rhodesia wished to pay these expenses, and is it also a fact that the Commission, that represented the natives, backed up the British South Africa Company in refusing to allow this offer to be made?
    Lieut.-Colonel AMERY: I do not understand that the Legislative Council did ask that.

  PREMISES IN GOVERNMENT OCCUPATION.
  Sir HENRY DALZIELasked the First Commissioner of Works to state approximately the weekly charge to the State of the hotels still in Government occupation?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Sir A. Mond): The weekly charge to the Government in respect of London hotels still in occupation for official purposes may be taken very approximately at £3,500. It is not possible to furnish figures for the provinces, without a vast amount of clerical labour, which I do not think would be justified.
  Mr. G. TERRELL: Does that cost include the rent which the Government will ultimately be called upon to pay?
  Sir A. MOND: Certainly.
  Captain W. GUINNESS: Does it include the rent for the Hotel Majestic in Paris?
  Sir A. MOND: No; it does not.
  Mr. KENNEDY JONES: Does it include the payment which may have to be made for dilapidations?
  Mr. HAILWOOD: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that the Ministry of Pensions are in negotiation, at the figure of £160,000, for an hotel in Manchester?
  Sir A. MOND: The Minister of Pensions cannot possibly negotiate; that comes within my Department.
  Mr. MacVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government is introducing a Bill this week proposing to give powers to continue the commandeering hotels?
  Sir A. MOND: I am certainly aware of that.
  Captain GUINNESS: Seeing this question is not limited to London—
  Mr. SPEAKER: Are not hon. Members abusing their right to put supplementary questions? It is now nearly twenty minutes past three o'clock, and we have only got to Question 29.
  Sir SAMUEL SCOTTasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is now in a position to state the date upon which the St. Marylebone new town hall will be handed back to the St. Marylebone borough council; whether any rent for the town hall has yet been paid the borough council, and, if so, what is the amount; and whether the Government intend to bear the extra charges thrown upon the ratepayers owing to the borough council being forced to find extra accommodation outside the old town hall during the occupation of the new town hall by the Ministry of Pensions?
  Sir A. MOND: I still hope that, in accordance with my answer to the hon. Member's question on the 20th May last, I shall be able to release the Marylebone Town Hall within six months from that date. As regards the remainder of the question, the claim for compensation in respect of the occupation, which has been provisionally agreed with the council at an amount which includes the cost of providing extra accommodation outside the town hall, is at present before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission, who desire to hear both parties on the provisional agreement arrived at. The date of the hearing has not yet been fixed.

  REGENT'S PARK.
  Major BARNETTasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that two considerable areas of the Regent's Park have now been closed to the public for fourteen months owing to the condition of the fences between this park and the canal; and, if so, whether he will take steps to compel the Regent's Canal Company to repair these fences without further delay?
  Sir A. MOND: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Regent's Canal and Dock Company are being repeatedly pressed both by my Department and by the Canal Control Committee of the Board of Trade to repair the fences in question. As these measures are ineffective, I am considering what further action it may be possible to take.
  Major BARNETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that nine months have now elapsed since the signing of the Armistice?
  Sir A. MOND: I am perfectly well aware of that fact, but what has that to do with this?

  POSTAL FACILITIES (FILEY).
  Captain MOREINGasked the Postmaster-General whether it has yet been possible to effect any improvements in the postal facilities at Filey?
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Pease): Arrangements will shortly be made for accelerating the first delivery at Filey by about half an hour. I regret the delay in dealing with the matter, which has been caused by the uncertainty in regard to the resumption of the pre-war train service.

  POST OFFICE.

    WEST SOMERSET MOTOR SERVICE.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir GILBERT WILLSasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the inconvenience caused in West Somerset by the absence of an adequate postal delivery beyond Taunton; and if he will take steps to restart immediately the motor service that was in use before the War?
    Mr. PEASE: A tender for a motor mail service by road between Taunton and Minehead has been accepted.
    Sir G. WILLS: Was the tender to which the right hon. Gentleman refers accepted by his Department three months ago, and can he name a date when this improved service will be introduced?
    Mr. PEASE: I think the hon. Baronet is mistaken about the date of acceptance of the tender. A difficulty has been experienced in obtaining motor cars.
    Captain BENN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the import of these things is restricted by the Board of Trade?

    OVERSEER'S PROMOTION, DUNDEE.
    Mr. SWANasked whether three promotions to the rank of overseer were made at Dundee during the week ending 26th July; whether the three men have been promoted over more capable officers who have had many more years of service and experience; whether one of the men promoted had not yet reached the maximum of the rank and file; whether he is aware that none of the men promoted have shown any special ability or had any experience of the higher duties for any length of time, and that one of the men passed over has been acting as overseer and is still performing such duties with satisfaction; and whether, in view of the dissatisfaction created by what is regarded as favouritism, he will call for the whole of the papers and have the promotions reconsidered?
    Mr. PEASE: The three officers to whom the hon. Member refers were promoted because, from experience of their work and abilities, they were regarded by their superior officers as the best qualified for the higher duties. I cannot agree with the hon. Member's estimate of their capacity. It is not necessary that an officer should have attained the maximum pay of his class in order to qualify for promotion. It has been necessary during the War to employ some of the officers now passed over as substitutes on overseer's duties, but they have not shown that they possess such good qualifications for advancement as the officers now selected.
    Mr. SWAN: Is it not the intention of the Government to give consideration to these men's special ability and knowledge
    536
    for promotion instead of promoting men who have not shown any special ability?
    Mr. PEASE: Yes, certainly it is.

    TELEPHONE INSTALLATION (SURCHARGE).
    Major COLFOXasked whether, when a house in which the telephone is installed changes hands, if is the practice of the telephone department to make a surcharge of £4 against the incoming tenant for the use of the telephone for the remainder of the year for which the sub scription has been paid; if so, what is the justification for making this surcharge; and, if it is not the practice of his Department, whether he will give instructions to the officials of the south-east district to cease demanding the surcharge in future?
    Mr. PEASE: A surcharge of £4 is now payable in respect of each new subscriber or each new telephone line. The reason for the surcharge is that under present conditions the tariff charges for giving a telephone service do not cover its cost.

    DRAUGHTSMEN.
    Mr. SUGDENasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that, owing to the low rates of pay offered to draughtsmen in the Post Office, Labour Exchanges are unable to supply applicants, even with little or no training; and, in view of this fact, if he proposes to make immediate in creases in the scales of pay of these classes in order to bring their pay up to the level of that paid by outside employers?
    Mr. PEASE: I have received an application for increased pay from the draughtsmen in the Engineering Department, and am making inquiries as regards the pay and conditions of service of men in corresponding employment outside the Post Office.
    Mr. SUGDEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as compared with what are known as engineers in corresponding employment outside the Post Office, these men are notoriously underpaid, and will he take that fact into consideration?
    Mr. PEASE: I will inquire into it.

  CENTRAL CONTROL BOARD (LIQUOR TRAFFIC).

    LITIGATION (CANNON BREWERY COMPANY).
    Major BARNETTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of

    537
    Munitions if he can state the total cost to the country of the unsuccessful litigation conducted by the Liquor Control Board against the Cannon Brewery Company; whether the case in question was heard by one judge in the King's Bench Division, by three in the Court of Appeal, and by four in the House of Lords; whether the decision of all eight judges was unanimously against the Liquor Control Board, with costs; and, if so, what useful purpose has been served by this litigation?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Gordon Hewart): I have been asked to reply to this question. I am informed that the total estimated amount of the costs and charges referred to is about £3,700. The case was heard originally by a judge of the Chancery Division. In the Court of Appeal it; was heard by three Lords Justices, who were not unanimous. In the House of Lords a unanimous judgment was given against the Liquor Control Board. It was essential that this case should be taken to the House of Lords for the following, among other, reasons: first, because it was repeatedly stated by the Government, in the House of Commons, in 1915, that compensation in cases of this kind would be dealt with by the Royal Commission established for the purpose; and, secondly, because it is not right, unless it be absolutely unavoidable, that different owners should receive different measures of compensation.
    Major BARNETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is proposed to make any further attempt to override Magna Charta?
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Certainly! It is in the Act.
    Sir G. HEWART: It is not an attempt to override Magna Charta.
    Sir D. MACLEAN: Was this not a successful effort on the part of the plaintiffs to get compensation by way of petition of right to secure extra compensation for compulsory acquisition?
    Sir G. HEWART: The point was that the Brewery Company felt that they were entitled to compensation under the Lands Clauses Act, involving 10 per cent for compulsory sale.

    OPENING HOURS (EXTENSION).
    Major KELLEYasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the serious
    538
    amount of unrest in the industrial, especially in the mining, districts owing to the hours licensed houses and clubs are closed for the sale of alcoholic drinks; and, while there is no general desire to return to the old hours, will he consider a reasonable alteration to suit the needs of any one particular district?
    The DEPUTY-MINISTER of MUNITIONS (Mr. Kellaway): I have been asked to answer this question. As has already been announced, the Government has the whole subject of the future regulation of the liquor trade under consideration, and a Bill will shortly be introduced to deal with this matter.
    Major KELLEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at seaside resorts people can get drink at any time from 9 a.m. till 9.30 p.m., whereas a collier who works in a pit may come out during those hours and find none obtainable. Why should he be in such a position. Why should the collier not have the same opportunities?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I am not aware of any place where the conditions suggested by the hon. Member exist.
    Mr. G. TERRELL: May we have an announcement of policy on this before the Recess?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I cannot add anything to what I have already said.

    NEW COMMISSION (CONSTITUTION).
    Sir P. GOFFasked the Prime Minister whether, in the constitution of the Commission which it is proposed to set up to replace the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), the Government will consider the desirability of appointing representatives of the leading sections of the-trade in order that men of practical experience may tender advice on the questions involved?
    Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House): The hon. Member's suggestion, will be borne in mind.
    Mr. BRIANT: Is my right hon. Friend not of opinion that persons having trade interests should appear as witnesses rather than be members of a Commission which may make decisions or recommendations?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: All I mean by the answer is that we do consider it is the duty of the Government to make sure that the views of those mentioned in the question are considered.

  GRETNA GREEN MUNITION FACTORY.
  Mr. ROSEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions if he will state the cost of building, equipment, and working of the Gretna Green factory, including the expenditure upon State-salaried officials and workmen; what was approximately the value of the total production of the factory; and what are the intentions of the Government in respect to its continuance or disposal?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Owing to the length of the answer I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate the reply in the Official Report.
  The following is the answer referred to:
  The total capital expenditure on the building and equipment ox the Gretna Green explosives factory was approximately, £9,184,000. The cost of working the factory from September, 1916, to the end of September, 1918, has been about £12,769,000. The staple product of the factory was cordite, though considerable quantities of intermediate products were supplied to other factories. Taking cordite alone, the value of the total production of the factory is estimated at about £15,000,000, on the basis of the average cost of the cordite supplied from home contractor's works during the same period.
  Prior to Gretna coming into production, this country had been dependent on United States of America for a large part of its cordite. Had we bought from America the quantity of cordite produced at Gretna, the cost at the price paid to America in 1916, would have been £23,600,000. As I have recently stated in reply to other questions a report on the future use of the factory is at present under consideration.
  Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Parliamentary Secretary (1) whether he is aware that in November, 1918, a letter, signed by the chemists in His Majesty's factory, Gretna, and other explosive factories, was forwarded to the then Minister of Munitions asking him to receive a deputation with regard to their claim for a revision of salary; whether he is also aware that the superintendent expressed himself as being in sympathy with the claim of the chemists and that no reply has ever been sent to the letter; whether he will have this matter inquired into and full consideration given to the question of salaries;
  540
  (2) whether he is aware that a memorial signed by the chemists employed at Gretna and other explosive factories was forwarded to the Department of Explosives Supply; whether any reply was given by the Department to this memorial; whether he is aware that the memorial asked that a minimum salary of £350 be paid to chemists on the grounds that, for purposes of efficient factory control and the maintenance of discipline, the principle must be admitted that any official should be paid more than individuals for whose work he is responsible and whom he controls, and that a considerable percentage of the operatives and tradesmen employed are paid more than the chemists, while a very large number receive about the same amount; whether any consideration has been given to this memorial; and whether it is proposed to grant the claim?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Mr. J. Hope): As the reply to those questions is a long one, I propose to circulate it in the Official Report.
  The following is the answer promised:
  The question of the salaries paid in national factories to chemists and other technical officers had been under consideration before the memorial was addressed to the Minister of Munitions on 16th November, 1918, by the chemists employed at Gretna and other explosive factories, and at about the same time a memorandum was received from the Institute of Chemistry of Great Britain and Ireland which covered the whole ground of the memorial. This letter was communicated to the Government Departments concerned, and finally led to the appointment of a Committee by the Treasury. This Committee is examining, in consultation with the Departments, the question of the salaries to be offered to scientific and technical officers whom it is desired to employ in the Government service. I sincerely regret that owing to pressure of work at the time of the Armistice a reply was not sent to the memorial.
  I think it right, however, to add that the Explosives Supply Department of the Ministry of Munitions did much during the War to improve the status of chemists employed in industry, and even after making full allowance for the increased cost of living, the scale of salaries paid by the Department can be compared favourably with the salaries paid by private firms under pre-war conditions. At the present

  541
  the number of chemists employed in the Explosives Department is thirty-five, and owing to the cessation of production this number is being rapidly reduced.

  MOTOR REPAIR DEPOT (CIPPENHAM).
  Mr. INSKIPasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether he an state that no demands will be made for railway trucks for the conveyance of motor vehicles to or from the Cippenham depot until the accumulations of traffic at the ports have been overtaken; whether it is proposed, either now or in the future, to repair vehicles at Cippenham which do not belong to Government Departments; and how many vehicles belonging to Government Departments it is estimated will require repair each year at Cippenham when all vehicles surplus to Government requirements on a peace footing have been disposed of?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: In view of the importance of increasing every possible form of transport facility, I do not consider it would be in the public interest to give the undertaking asked for in the first part of the question. It is not proposed to repair vehicles at Cippenham which do not belong to Government Departments. I am not at present in a position to answer the third part of the question.
  Mr. INSKIP: Has any calculation been made as to the number of vehicles which will be available for repair at Cippenham after the arrears have been cleared off, or has the depot been built without any calculation as to the future?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: The repairs at Cippenham show that the number of surplus vehicles was at least 80,000 belonging to the War Office.
  Mr. INSKIP: Is it estimated that those will be cleared off after three years' time?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: In a less period than that, I hope.
  Mr. INSKIP: What will be done afterwards?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: A decision will be taken when that arises in accordance with the suggestion of the Committee of Inquiry.
  Sir D. MACLEAN: Is the action just indicated by my hon. Friend the only action the Government propose to take on the Report of the Select Committee with regard to the motor depot at Slough?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: An answer has already been given by the Leader of the House on that point.

  MUNITIONS SUPPLY (OFFICIAL).
  Major KELLEYasked whether 35,922 officials were engaged on the sup ply of munitions at the end of March, 1919; and what is the number employed to-day?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: 35,922 officials were employed at the end of March at the Ministry of Munitions headquarters, together with the administrative and clerical staffs at Government ordnance and explosives factories and store depots. The corresponding figure to-day is 25,884.

  DARDANELLES COMMISSION.
  Sir JOHN BUTCHERasked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to publish the Second Report of the Dardanelles Commission?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The Government have decided to publish this Report, and it will be laid on the Table as soon as possible.

  LIGHTNING STRIKES AND DIRECT ACTION.
  Mr. DOYLEasked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the danger to the community caused by threats of direct action and lightning strikes on the part of a number of officials of certain organised trades whereby the nation's food and essentials of life will be greatly imperilled; and if he is prepared to consider the introduction of a Bill providing that, before a direct action or lightning strike threatening the nation's food and fuel supply is entered upon, two-thirds of the members of the trade unions directly affected shall have voted on the question by ballot?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: My hon. Friend's question raises a number of very important issues, but at the moment I can only say that they are not being overlooked.

  TREATY OF PEACE ACT.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAYasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the powers granted to His Majesty under the Treaty of Peace Act to do such things as appear to him to be necessary for carrying out the Treaty referred to in the Preamble to the Bill and for giving effect to any of the provisions of the said Treaty, he will say whether, in the event of reservations being made to the said Treaty by His Majesty to the extent that the said Treaty is no longer the Treaty described in the Preamble, it will be necessary to introduce further legislation to enable His Majesty to do such things as appear to him to be necessary for carrying out the Treaty as altered?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: This question is hypothetical, and I cannot, therefore, answer it.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Has the Government considered what they would do in such a case?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: No. They have not considered what should be done in a case that we hope may not arise.

  SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT (METROPOLITAN AREA).
  Mr. BRIANTasked the Prime Minister what action the Government proposes to take with reference to the recommendations of the Select Committee on Transport (Metropolitan Area)?
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the policy of the Government in respect of the Report recently presented by the Committee on Transport?
  Sir ALFRED YEOasked the Prime Minister if he is prepared, on the recommendations of the Select Committee on Metropolitan Transport, to take action before the Recess; and, if so, what will be the nature of the Government recommendations?
  Lieut.-Colonel THORNEasked the Prime Minister whether, having considered the Report of the Select Committee on Transport for the Metropolitan Area, he is now prepared to make a statement as to the measures the Government are prepared to take?
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. WARRENasked the Prime Minister when he expects to be able to make a statement as to the action he intends to take on the recommendations contained in the Report of the Select Committee on Metropolitan Transport?
  Lieut.-Colonel MALONEasked whether the Government have considered the Report of the Select Committee on Metropolitan Transport; whether it is pro posed to carry out the recommendations of that Report; and, if so, when?
  Sir H. NIELDasked the Prime Minister whether he has now considered the Report of the Select Committee on Metropolitan Transport; and what steps he proposes to take to give effect to the recommendation?
  Mr. S. SAMUELasked the Prime Minister, in view of the need of dealing with the London traffic problem, when the Government propose to give legislative effect to the Report of the Select Committee on Metropolitan Transport?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: This Report, which requires very careful study, is at present under the consideration of the Departments concerned.
  Mr. BRIANT: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any hope of a definite policy being announced prior to the rising for the Recess?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: We realise the importance of the question, and no time will be lost. I hope it may be possible, although I give no promise, to make an. announcement before the Recess.
  Mr. J. JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to act as expeditiously in this casts as in the case of profiteering?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I think I may give that promise. The matter has been under consideration for some months.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY (BRITISH EMPIRE CHAIN).
  Major GLYNasked the Prime Minister what information the Government have as to the systems of wireless telegraphy that are being set up by other countries to maintain efficient commercial communication with their Colonies and with foreign countries; whether some of these installations are nearing completion and are of the latest design, incorporating many improvements resulting from the research work of recent years; whether the Government are certain that the system to be adopted for use in the British Empire chain scheme will be superior to, or at any rate equal to, that of any other country; and whether the Government are satisfied that ail the most recent ideas held under British patents of proved value have been incorporated in the British Imperial system of wireless communication?
  Mr. PIKE PEASE: I have been asked to answer this question. It presumably refers to the completion of the Oxford and Cairo stations, and not to any larger scheme of Empire communication, concerning which no decision has yet been arrived at. In considering the question of completing the Oxford and Cairo stations, the Government have obtained information as to the systems of long-distance wireless telegraphy in use in other countries, and have received advice from recognised experts both within and outside the Government service. As a result, the Government are satisfied that the stations will be equal, if not superior, to stations of corresponding power in this or any other country, and that they would not be materially, if at all, improved by the incorporation of apparatus covered by British or other patents. The stations will embody the latest naval practice in regard to long-distance wireless telegraphy, which has made important progress during the War. Installations of other design are nearing completion in other countries, but the efficiency of these stations still has to be proved, and the Government are advised that the equipment which they have decided on is at present the best to employ for the two stations in question.

  FORESTRY BILL.
  Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAYasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's
  546
  Government desires to take all the stages of the Forestry Bill in this House before the Recess?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer is in the affirmative.

  GOVERNMENT TRADE POLICY.
  Major Sir SAMUEL SCOTTasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the great anxiety amongst all classes of traders with regard to the future trade policy of the Government; and whether he intends to make any statement of the Government policy prior to the House rising for the Recess?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer is in the affirmative.
  Captain W. BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what day?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: No, I cannot.

  HUNGARY (BLOCKADE).
  Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the accession to power of a democratic Government in Hungary, His Majesty's Government will now recognise this Government and raise the blockade on Hungary; and, if not, when this House will be given an opportunity of discussing the Hungarian situation?
  Mr. HARMSWORTH: The information in the possession of the Foreign Office is not definite enough to permit us to say whether the now Hungarian Government has actually been recognised, though the Allies have entered into relations with it. In any case, the Peace Conference have decided that the blockade is to be raised, and the Board of Trade are taking the necessary steps at once. I have consulted the Leader of the House, who thinks a discussion in the House upon Hungary would be inopportune.

  SHARE AND CAPITAL ISSUES.
  Mr. FREDERICK ROBERTSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the practice during the War of wealthy companies having been allowed to issue new capital, issuing shares to their shareholders at face value

  547
  and the shareholders in turn selling these shares to the general public at enhanced prices; and whether, in sanctioning new issues, the Committee on Capital Issues sought to prevent this particular form of profiteering?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr Chamberlain): I have no information as to the prices at which holders may have disposed of new shares issued to them during the War. It is not within the province of the Capital Issues Committee to control the selling price of shares after issue.
  Mr. F. ROBERTSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant a Return showing the issues of fresh capital authorised during the War?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that such a Return would be worth the very considerable labour and expense involved in its preparation.

  ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOHN HOPEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Entertainment Duty is to be charged on the subscriptions of all members of the Royal Caledonian Horticultural Society or only on the tickets issued to members which are actually used by them to visit the annual show?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under the provisions of Section 1 (4) of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, subscriptions paid by members of this society are liable to Entertainments Duty in so far as they confer the right of admission to shows promoted by the society, but not otherwise.
  Sir J. HOPE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider allowing the duty to be paid only on those tickets which are actually used and not on the full subscription, regulations for which were made before the imposition of the Entertainments Duty?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have dealt with that already in the Debate and I must refer my hon. Friend to what I said then. I may say shortly that if a member gives a subscription with a charitable object only and with no intention of using the right of admission, the case can be
  548
  met by the society giving him a voucher for his subscription instead of an admission ticket.

  INCOME TAX (WORKMEN'S DWELLINGS).
  Mr. SUGDENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will cause instructions to be issued that, where a workman is purchasing his cottage by mortgage on which he is paying interest at, say, 5 per cent. clear, if his total income is under £120 a year he shall be charged at the proper rate and not at 6s. in the £, as at present obtains?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: A taxpayer whose total income does not exceed £130 is personally exempt from Income Tax. Where he pays mortagage interest on his house the Income Tax chargeable in respect of the interest is collected from him and he is entitled by law to deduct it from the payments of interest to the mortgagee. In such a case he deducts the full amount of the tax which is charged at the standard rate.
  Mr. SUGDEN: If I give the right hon. Gentleman the names of men who have actually followed the procedure mentioned in the question will he see that his instructions are followed?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not understand in what respect, not my instruction, but the law has been broken, but if the hon. Member communicates with me I will look into any case he likes to submit.

  SUPER-TAX.
  Mr. JAMESONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the number of Incomes exceeding £100,000 has in creased since the introduction of the Super tax system ten years ago from sixty odd to about 150; whether there has been at the same time an increase, and, if so, how much, in the average amount of such incomes; and how many incomes there are in the country just now in excess of £156,000 per annum?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: For 1909–10 the number of persons charged to Super-tax on incomes of over £100,000 was sixty-five. The figure of 148 shown in Command Paper 224 as the number of persons in receipt of incomes over £100,000 represents the esti-

  549

  mated number of such persons who should be charged to Super-tax for the year 1919–20 when all assessments for that year have been finally completed. For 1918–19 the assessments are not quite complete, but the number in excess of £100,000 is expected to reach 124. The average amount of such incomes for 1909–10 was £158,900, and for 1918–19 £206,000. The number of incomes of over £156,000 charged to Super tax for 1918–19 up to the present is forty-nine.
  Mr. JAMESON: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of getting more money out of these large incomes?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the position is such that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may well consider every means of getting income and it will be necessary to do so unless the House shows greater keenness for economy.

  WOMEN'S ROYAL AIR FORCE (CONTRACTS).
  Brigadier-General Sir OWEN THOMASasked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry if he will give the name of the firm which received the first contract for coats and skirts for the Women's Royal Air Force; in what business was this firm engaged before the War; whether any and, if so, what other firms tendered for the contract before it was placed; and whether the change in the coats from wind sleeves to sham cuffs and the saving in cost so effected was accompanied by a corresponding decrease in the contract price?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: The contract referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend has been the subject of inquiry by the Committee on National Expenditure. Pending the report of that Committee any statement would be undesirable.

  HOUSING.

    MIDDLE-CLASS DWELLINGS (SUPPLY).
    Brigadier-General Sir O. THOMASasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the increase in the cost of living has struck the poorer middle-class. who have to face such increases out of practically unaltered or diminished incomes, even more severely than the manual working-class, he is aware that an equal
    550
    or possibly greater demand exists for middle-class dwellings than for what are technically known as working-class houses; and whether he will facilitate the completion of middle-class dwellings half erected before the War and still held up for want of material and labour, by subsidy or otherwise, and by the extension of the definition of working-class houses, as set out in the Schedule to the Houses of the Working Classes Act, 1903, up to the yearly rental of £60 to £65?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Major Astor): My right hon. Friend is aware that the demand for houses is not limited to houses of the types required by manual workers. I would point out that the definition to which the hon. and gallant Member refers is not of general application to the Housing Acts, and that in letting houses erected by them as part of their housing schemes, local authorities will not be limited by that definition.

    SCOTTISH SCHEMES.
    Rear-Admiral ADAIRasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is satisfied as to the sufficiency of labour of all classes to meet the Scottish schemes of housing already approved or in progress; and, if not, what steps He is taking to obtain this sufficiency?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH for SCOTLAND (Mr. J. W. Pratt): I am informed by the Scottish Board of Health that they are not aware of any shortage of labour in connection with housing schemes already approved or in progress. They are in close touch with the divisional office of the Ministry of Labour in Edinburgh, to whom they send a note of all tenders authorised so that the labour requirements of the contractors concerned may be ascertained by the Employment Exchanges. For further information I may refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to a question on the 30th June by the hon. Member for St. Rollox.
    Rear-Admiral ADAIRasked the Secretary for Scotland whether there is in sight a sufficient supply of building materials, such as bricks, timber, slates, window glass, sanitary fittings, etc., to provide for Scottish housing schemes already approved or in progress; and

    551
    whether the prices of these materials are subject to Government control so as to avoid any profiteering in connection with them?
    Mr. KELLAWAY: I have been asked to answer this question. There is a sufficiency of building material generally. The provision of slates alone offers ground for anxiety, but this is being overcome. Prices are not subject to control, but the Government has been able to make contracts on favourable terms for all the articles mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend.

  GERMAN DEBTS.
  Mr. ATKEYasked the President of the Board of Trade when the clearing office scheme for the settlement of German debts will become operative, and what assurance or information can he give to British manufacturers and traders as to the date when their claims will be definitely settled; and is he aware that a list of moneys owing to this country has been filed with the Public Trustee; that the banks of this country have relied on these accounts being paid by the Government, and have supported their clients in this belief; and that the present uncertainty and delay is seriously prejudicing the commercial interests concerned?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Bridgeman): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 30th July to the question addressed to the Foreign Office by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan, Western Division. I am not at present able to add anything to that answer.

  EMBROIDERIES (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS).
  Mr. ATKEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, at the inter view given to the representatives of the Nottingham Embroidery Manufacturers' Association by Sir Frank Warner's Committee at the office of the Controller of Imports on the 1st April last, it was distinctly stated that the ration of imported embroideries about to be fixed would be operative until the 1st of September; whether this ration has been increased, and the period extended from 1st September
  552
  to 1st November; whether the effect of this change of policy without any consultation of those whose interests are vitally concerned will seriously prejudice the development of the English embroidery trade which, treated with consideration, would undoubtedly become an important industry, providing employment for many; people?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The only practicable method of administering this ration is to calculate it upon a value basis. Owing to the large increase in the value of embroideries as compared with that in the standard year, an increase of the percentage admissible on a value basis had to be sanctioned, as the quantity was less than the quantity authorised, and as a result the imports now admitted are certainly not greater than the amount authorised. In regard to the second part of the question, I would draw attention to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division of Nottinghamshire on the 28th July.

  PORT CONGESTION (TRANSIT SHEDS).
  Lieut.-Colonel WILLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade when de finite sanction can be given for the erection of supplementary transit sheds at internal points, with a view to relieving congestion of merchandise at the ports; if any sites have yet been settled upon; and, if not, what advice is being taken with regard to their selection?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Shipping Controller is in. consultation with the Railway Executive Committee with regard to a scheme prepared by the Port and Transit Executive Committee for the erection of transit sheds, but that no definite sites have yet been decided upon.
  Captain W. BENN: Is it a fact that some of the docks in London are permanently reserved for the service of the Russian Expedition?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I should like notice of that question.

  ELECTRIC LIGHT ADVERTISEMENTS.
  Sir P. GOFFasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the

  553
  Coal Controller's attention has been called to the extravagant consumption of electric light by shops, hotels, and music halls for purposes of advertisement; and whether, in view of the threatened shortage and in fairness to the domestic consumer, he will reduce the allowance of electric light for frontages and show windows, so as to be able to increase the allowance to householders?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: This matter is at present under consideration.

  RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES.
  Mr. MARSHALL STEVENSasked the President of the Board of Trade why a, revision of railway rates and charges is not now being proceeded with by the appointment of a Committee identical with the Committee referred to in Clause 3, Sub-section. (3, a), of the Ministry of Ways and Communications Bill?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The Committee which it is proposed to establish under the provisions referred to in the Ministry of Ways and Communications Bill cannot be set up until those provisions have become law, and that event cannot be anticipated.
  Mr. STEVENS: I referred to an identically similar Committee.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I think my answer will cover that.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT OFFICERS (BONUSES).
  Major PRESCOTTasked the Minister of Health whether the Civil Service scale of bonuses fixed in accordance with Award No. 84, April, 1919, of the Conciliation and Arbitration Board has been adopted in its entirety by county and local authorities generally, but wholly or partially rejected by a few governing authorities; and whether, in order to bring to an end unfair discrimination and consequential dissatisfaction, he is prepared to take any special action to secure equality of treatment for all local government officers?
  Major ASTOR: My right hon. Friend is aware that some local authorities have refused to grant war bonuses to their officials according to the scale recommended.
  554
  Where such cases have been brought to the notice of the Ministry the local authorities have been urged to adopt this scale or to submit the matter to arbitration, but the Ministry of Health has no power to compel the adoption of either course.

  METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD.
  Major PRESCOTTasked the Minister of Health whether he is in a position to make any announcement concerning the request of the constituent authorities, seconded by the Water Board and the London County Council, for an inquiry into the administration of the Metropolitan Water Board; whether the request for the setting up of a Commission has been granted; and, if so, can he state when the Commission is likely to sit and what the terms of reference will be?
  Major ASTOR: Yes, Sir, my right hon. Friend is considering the composition of a suitable body to inquire into the matter referred to in the question, and he hopes to set up this body very shortly. I cannot, however, to-day make any detailed statement.

  DISCHARGED SOLDIERS (TRAINING).
  Brigadier-General WIGANasked the Minister of Labour how many discharged soldiers who have been passed for training by the local war pensions committees are waiting for training?
  The MINISTER Of LABOUR (Sir Robert Horne): The returns received from local war pensions committees are incomplete, and even when received would not, from the point of view of the question, be of very much value. It is certain, however, that sufficient facilities do not exist at present. Every effort has been, and is being, made to supply the deficiency as rapidly as possible.

  OUT-OF-WORK DONATION.
  Brigadier-General WIGANasked the Minister of Labour how many soldiers discharged on account of disablement are receiving the unemployed weekly grant because the Labour Exchanges are unable to find them suitable employment?
  Sir R. HORNE: The figure for which the hon and gallant Member asks can not be stated exactly, but it is estimated at about 40,000.
  Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Minister of Labour (1) whether James Johnston, 47, Hamilton Street, Govan, riveter, received unemployed donation from 3rd July until 17th July, when he was told he could have a situation in Carnarvon, Wales, at £3 15s. 11d. per week; whether the wages offered were, at a lower rate than the Clyde district rate, and, as his home is in Govan and the wage inadequate to maintain two homes, he had to refuse the offer; whether, on appearing before the Board of Referees, he told them his acceptance of this place meant breaking up his home, and was informed they had nothing to do with that, their duty was to settle cases, and on refusing the situation his unemployment donation was stopped for six weeks; if this man was unemployed since 24th April, but tried to find a situation everywhere on the Clyde before signing on at the Labour Exchange on 3rd July; and whether, in view of the circumstances, he is prepared to review the decision;
  (2) Whether Hugh Hilferty, 101, Elder Street, Govan, applied for unemployment benefit on 23rd June and received the same until 17th July, when he was told at the Labour Exchange, Govan, to go to a situation in Carnarvon, Wales, the wages being £3 15s. 11d. per week of forty-seven hours and no subsistence allowance; whether he refused on the ground that the wage was below the Clyde district rate, and to go to Carnarvon meant breaking up his home; whether the Court of Referees has disallowed his claim for six weeks on the plea that he refused suitable employment; and what steps he is prepared to take to adjust this claim?
  Sir R. HORNE: I am having inquiry made into these cases and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

  TRAINING SCHEMES (ALLOWANCES).
  Mr. F. ROBERTSasked the Minister of Labour whether, in connection with the training schemes under his Department, it was first proposed to grant an allowance of 25s. per week; whether this has been reduced to 15s.; whether
  556
  he is aware that women have been Waiting since March for the classes to open; that 15s. per week is insufficient for maintenance; and whether he will consider the advisability of fixing the allowance at the 25s. originally proposed?
  Sir R. HORNE: The allowance of 25s. was, and still is, the allowance for those women who are obliged to live away from home during training, or who join a resident training course in a Government hostel. It was at first proposed that the training allowance for women who do not live away from home should be 15s. a week, but in view of the many representations I received as to the insufficiency of this allowance, the amount was recently raised to 20s. a week. No individual cases are known of women who have been awaiting training since March, but if the hon. Member will send me particulars of any such cases, I will have them investigated.

  EX-SERVICE MEN (EMPLOYMENT).
  Mr. CAPEasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the large number of ex-Service men who are unable to obtain employment; whether his Department are taking any steps calculated to find these men remunerative employment; whether he is in communication with local authorities with a view to the provision of work of a public character which would provide employment; and whether he will state what action, if any, is contemplated in this matter?
  Sir R. HORNE: All steps possible to secure the employment of ex-Service men are being taken. If the hon. Gentleman would care to discuss the matter in detail, I should be glad to arrange for an interview with the responsible officers of the Department.
  Sir F. LOWE: Has any further number of these men been placed in employment since the right hon. Gentleman last answered a question on the subject?
  Sir R. HORNE: Oh, yes; a very large number.
  Sir F. LOWE: About how many?
  Sir R. HORNE: I cannot say off-hand.

  BAKING TRADE DISPUTE.
  Mr. WATERSON(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he

  557
  can make any statement with reference to the bakers' dispute. Whether any hardship is being involved upon institutions such as hospitals, etc. Further, seeing that the operatives have a desire to do baking for these institutions if the Government commandeer bakehouses for the purpose, is he prepared to act in that direction so as to alleviate any suffering, and in the event of no settlement being arrived at this week, will he commandeer bakehouses so as the men may work for the community until a settlement is reached?
  Sir R. HORNE: Negotiations between the master bakers and the trade union took place yesterday at the Ministry of Labour, but I regret to say that they were not successful in arriving at a settlement. The employers, have, however, taken a further step to-day and the representatives of the trade union are coming to the Ministry of Labour this afternoon to discuss the employers' proposals. I have not had any representations that hospitals and similar institutions are suffering hardship and I understand that no representations have been made to the Ministry of Food. The last part of the question should be addressed to the Food Controller. As regards the co-operative societies, an agreement was reached last night at the Ministry of Labour, and it is hoped that there will be an immediate resumption of work in their bakeries throughout the country.
  Mr. WATERSON: May I be allowed to ask the Minister of Food the latter portion of the question, seeing the urgency of the matter?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Has the hon. Member given the Minister notice?
  Mr. WATERSON: No, Sir.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    HENLOW AERODROME (DISCHARGES).
    Mr. TOWNLEY(by Private Notice) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that 50 per cent. of the men employed at the Henlow Aerodrome have received notice to leave on. 9th August, and the remainder to go shortly; and whether, especially as many of these men are ex-Service men he will take steps to suspend this notice?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for AIR (Major-General Seely): I only received my hon. Friend's question on entering the House and have not had time to ascertain the full facts of the case, I am aware, however, that a large number of men at Henlow are under notice to leave owing to necessary reductions. I regret extremely the inconvenience and anxiety which must be caused to the men and their families by these dismissals at Henlow and elsewhere, especially as many of the men employed have served in the field, but the great reduction in the etablishments and expenditure of the Royal Air Force render these hardships unavoidable. Fifty-two aerodromes, eleven seaplane stations, 147 landing grounds, and 1,899 hired premises have been closed since the Armistice, involving an almost unprecedented reduction in expenditure and labour employed in so short a period. I am making special inquiries at Henlow, and my hon. Friend may rest assured that every effort will be made there and elsewhere to mitigate the hardships resulting from the necessary reductions while maintaining the efficiency of the Royal Air Force, which are essential in the interests of economy.

  LONDON SUBURBAN DISTRICTS (CONDITION OF STREETS).
  Major C. W. LOWTHER(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the dirty condition of the streets in the neighbourhood of Paddington; and whether he will take steps to cause the streets in question to be thoroughly disinfected, with a view to preventing the propagation of disease?
  Major ASTOR: My right hon. Friend has had no official representations on the subject, but, in view of what has otherwise come to his knowledge, he is in communication with the local authority with a view to considering what steps it may be desirable to take to safeguard the health of the people.
  Colonel YATE: Is the right hon. Gentleman in communication with the Kensington authorities, where the situation is very serious?
  Major ASTOR: Yes, my right hon. Friend has been in touch with Kensington for some time, and I understand that seven vans are collecting refuse in Kensington, and that there will be twenty on the streets to-morrow.
  Mr. J. JONES: Will you disinfect the members of the two councils concerned?
  Mr. PERRING: How is it possible to carry out this disinfecting process without labour, inasmuch as the men will not work, although they have had their terms conceded?
  Major ASTOR: That question should be addressed to the Minister of Labour.

  COAL SUPPLY.

    YORKSHIRE STRIKE.
    Mr. GRUNDY: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether a letter has been received by the Coal Controller from the South Yorkshire Coal Trade Association and the Yorkshire Miners' Association, asking that a joint meeting should be fixed up immediately to discuss the cause of the deadlock in the Yorkshire area, and what steps have been taken in the matter?
    Sir R. HORNE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the steps now to be taken are being considered.
    Mr. LUNN: Seeing that the meeting is to take place to-morrow, and that the industry is at a standstill in Yorkshire, will the right hon. Gentleman consider it of sufficient importance to send the President of the Board of Trade to such meeting, to try to bring about a settlement?
    Sir R. HORNE: We shall take the most appropriate steps in the circumstances. The House may rely on that.
    Mr. GRUNDY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the urgency of the question, and that there is a probability of a resumption of work if this meeting be arranged? Surely owing to that urgency a meeting should be fixed up somehow for to-morrow.
    Sir R. HORNE: We are well aware of the urgency of this question, and are anxious to get a settlement as rapidly as possible. The House may rely upon it that no opportunity towards that end will be lost.
    Mr. GRUNDY: There will be time lost if the meeting be not arranged for tomorrow.
    Sir R. HORNE: The hon. Member is jumping to conclusions.

  LIVERPOOL POLICE STRIKE.
  Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: I should like to ask the Minister of Labour whether he has received any recent information as to the state of affairs in Liverpool? I was not able to give him notice of the question.
  Sir R. HORNE: I have no more recent information than appears in the daily Press.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: I have seen a statement that there was a bayonet charge last night.
  Sir R. HORNE: I have received no information of that.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir D. MACLEAN: Can the Leader of the House announce the business for next week, and, in view of the commitment of the Government to fresh legislation within a margin of three weeks, can he suggest at what time we shall rise for the vacation?
Mr. BONAR LAW: To-morrow, we propose to take the Patents and Designs Bill and the Trade Marks Bill (Report), War Pensions Bill (Committee), and Forestry Bill (Committee).
On Monday, the Profiteering Bill (Second Beading), and the Welsh Church Bill (Committee).
On Tuesday, the Consolidated Fund Bill (Third Reading), and, if possible, the Committee and other stages of the Profiteering Bill.
On Wednesday, we hope to have the Lords Amendments to the Ways and Communications. Bill and other Bills.
For the rest of the week, I shall not attempt to announce the business, as it will depend on the progress we have made on the earlier days. As regards the possible margin of three weeks, that will depend upon the House more than upon the Government, but I am more sanguine than my right hon. Friend.
Sir F. BANBURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the word "profiteering" is to be found in any dictionary, and, if not, whether he will alter the title of the Bill so that the title can appear to be in the English language?
Mr. BONAR LAW: I have not examined a dictionary, but I hope it will be found that the Bill clearly expresses what is meant.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: In view of the great pressure on the time of the House, would it not be well to send the Welsh Church Bill to a Committee upstairs?
Mr. BONAR LAW: We have judged of that simply from the point of view of the time of the House, and our belief was that the progress would be quicker on the whole if it were taken downstairs.
Captain W. BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the Committee on Profiteering should be discharged, or should continue its labours?
Mr. BONAR LAW: I believe the Committee met to-day, and I took the liberty myself of sending a letter to the Chairman pointing out that at the time the Committee was appointed the Government then said that they intended on their own initiative to do what they could. At that time we hoped that everything necessary could be done to meet the immediate difficulty without special legislation, but we have now come to the conclusion that the evil is growing so quickly that we should not be justified in leaving ourselves over the Recess without further powers. We have said to the Chairman of the Committee that we hoped the Committee would continue in being, so that if later on further steps are necessary, the Government can ask the Committee to meet again.
Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: When does the Government propose to declare their policy in regard to Mr. Justice Sankey's Report?
Mr. BONAR LAW: I have answered a question almost every second day on that point. We do intend to declare our policy before the Recess.
Sir P. MAGNUS: Is it proposed to take the further stages of the Forestry Bill to-morrow, besides the Committee?
Mr. BONAR LAW: We will take as much as we can get.
Resolved,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted at this clay's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE E.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee E (in respect of the Ferries (Acquisition by County Councils) Bill): Major Astor.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee E: Colonel Yate; and had appointed in substitution: Captain Brown.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

HIGH PRICES AND PROFITS.
Special Report from the Committee brought up, and read, with Minutes of Evidence.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 166.]

TRADE MARKS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 167.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 167.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 174.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill,
Retired Officers (Civil Employment) Bill,
City of London Police Bill, without Amendment.
Workington Corporation Bill, with an Amendment.
Birmingham Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Third Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 168.]

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
George Boyle Hanna, esquire, for the County of Antrim (East Antrim Division).

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Londonderry Port and Harbour Bill [Lords],
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation (Rates) Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

BILLS PRESENTED.
COUNTY COURT JUDGES (RETIREMENT, PENSIONS, AND DEPUTIES) BILL,—"to make further provision with respect to the Retirement and Pensions of County Court Judges and the employment of Deputy Judges; and for purposes in connection therewith," presented by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL; supported by Mr. Baldwin; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 173.]
CONSTABULARY AND POLICE (IRELAND) BILL,—"to amend the Law relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police," presented by Mr. MACPHERSON; supported by the Attorney-General for Ireland; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 175.]
PROFITEERING BILL,—"to cheek Profiteering," presented by Sir AUCKLAND GEDDES; supported by Sir Robert Home, the Solicitor-General, Mr. Bridgeman, and Mr. McCurdy; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 176.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  4.0 P.M.
  Major TRYON: I propose to raise a question which comes, I think, appropriately from the Back Benches, because I know that there are Members in every part of the House who feel very strongly that this question is one which concerns us. I hope, therefore, to speak, not for any party or policy, but simply as a Member of the House of Commons. I wish to urge upon the Government that, with the advent of Peace, we should return to the normal constitutional methods of government by a reconstituted and responsible Cabinet, and that decisions should be made by the Executive, and receive their authority by the approval and sanction of Parliament. I urge that we should abandon, as soon as we can, Government by Orders in Council, by the decrees of controllers, and by Royal Commissions; and I further urge the vital importance of economy. I am perfectly well aware that, although the War is over, the effects of the War are still with us, and that it is not possible to withdraw all this control at once. I know, for instance, that in regard to food we may be faced with the necessity for control for some time to come; and it is possible that circumstances may make the continued control of coal necessary, in order that what little there is may be fairly distributed among the population and industries of the country. All I urge is that it should be the settled determination of the Government, now that Peace has come, to work steadily back to the old historic, traditional, Parliamentary methods of government, and to abandon as far as possible the system of Orders in Council and similar methods.
  I know that we are in difficult circumstances. I know the fearful work that there must be upon all members of the Government, and I should think it is worse now in many ways than during the period of the War. But there is one very great danger threatening us, and that is
  600
  the threat to the whole government of this country from the Triple Alliance. That is a matter which must be dealt with by the way in which the country is administered. It is a threat to take the system of trade unions—so necessary and valuable for legitimate negotiations—and convert it into a weapon of political warfare. It is an attempt by a section of the community to dictate to the whole. It is an attempt to coerce the community by withholding supplies. It is, above all, a threat to the authority of Parliament. Therefore, I urge upon the Government, with all the energy at my command, that we should revert as much as possible to Parliamentary methods, letting the people realise that it is to Parliament that they should go and state their grievances, and that they should support the members of the Labour party in the House of Commons who believe that the proper way to remedy those grievances is to get elected to Parliament and come down and put those grievances before the House and the country. The Labour party has not been successful. They may be in some future election, but my point is, that the way to carry out a policy is through Parliament, and not by threats to the whole stability of the State.
  In establishing the necessary administration for meeting the attack, we must see at what point it is aimed. I do not myself believe that the policies put forward are the real reason. When men seek to cut off the supplies of food from our large towns, I do not believe much in their enthusiasm for raising the blockade of Germany. When I hear them denouncing the evils of secret diplomacy, I cannot help remembering that they themselves meet and deliberate in secret, and I do not wonder that they have to do so. When I find them talking of the peaceful settlement of international disputes, I cannot help remembering that these are the men who are seeking to settle our internal affairs by methods of violence. I believe that we in this House, including the Labour party, are vitally interested in this question, because it is to Parliament that the nation should look for the settlement of these questions. We want to do everything we can to establish the authority of Parliament, and to show that this Government, or any future Government, works through the authority of Parliament by the old traditional Parliamentary system of our country, and not through controllers or edicts of any kind. The Parliamentary Government of our country is a very pre-

  601
  cious heritage. It has been brought up by this nation, and we have given it to the whole world. It is at this moment being challenged by a system which is a pure doctrine of force, coming, not from Britain, but from Prussia. Against that doctrine of force, from wherever it comes, we must stand as supporters of constitutional government; we must stand for Parliamentary action. That is why I think the Government, in their administration, should bear in mind the importance of making the whole country look to Parliament for what they want. The nation should realise that the Labour party who come here are the people to whom it should look, and not those who try to get policies adopted by unconstitutional means.
  I think the Government have been unconsciously playing into the hands of the extremists, and letting down to some extent the more moderate party in the country. We are having our policies far too much settled by Royal Commissions. I am aware that, technically speaking, the sanction of this House is necessary, but nobody can have watched the proceedings of the late lamented Coal Commission without noticing that the country has looked to the Coal Commission as the body which has been settling its future policy. The country has the impression that its policy is settled by Commissions and not by this House. Let Royal Commissions collect facts, by all means, but I urge that we should work less and less through Royal Commissions and more and more through this House in regard to matters of policy. I do not claim by privilege or right to sit on Royal Commissions. I am not a rejected candidate. I think that many Members in all parts of the House must during the last few months have watched with amazement and bewilderment the dictation and domination of the affairs and the policy of the country by a group of three men who have nothing in common except that all of them have been rejected as candidates for Parliament; and they are led, most appropriately, by a man who, in such a campaign as that, would naturally lead, owing to the fact that he has been rejected seven times. The result is that the country is looking to extremists, and not to Parliament. The country is talking of what these men say at Royal Commissions, where, at the national expense, they conduct, in their judicial capacity, political campaigns and make political speeches.
  602
  The country is looking away from the proper Labour party on either side of this House, and is getting not to look to Parliament, but to outside influences, for the settlement of its affairs. I believe that that is a grave peril in time of emergency. It suggests for these men an authority which they do not possess, and I suggest to them that, if they want to dictate the policy of this country, their proper method is to get elected to Parliament, and to put forward their views in the place where they ought properly to be put forward, and not to try to dictate the policy of the country on Royal Commissions. This is at the foundation of all the perils that are ahead of us. I believe that any Government will be safer in the troublous times of the next few months if they get more into touch with Parliament, and base their action more on proper Parliamentary methods and less on the acts of controllers and on arbitrary Orders in Council, showing that people who are trying to dictate the policy of the country by other means, including intimidation by the Triple Alliance, are not going to be listened to. The whole stability of our nation is at stake. The whole heritage of our people and the right to govern themselves is being threatened by this attempt to coerce the community by a section of the workers, and the answer is for the Government to get into touch with the House of Commons, and base everything they do on the normal, traditional policy of Parliamentary action.
  What I am putting forward now is not in the interest of any particular policy or party. I can conceive no greater danger to a Labour Government than the position we are in to-day. I believe they would be in far greater danger than we are, because certain necessary methods by which, we might uphold the Government of the State, such as the use of the police, might be taken away from them by some of their own proposals. I think this is a position of the very greatest danger, and the solution lies, as I have said, in the restoration of Parliamentary Government in this House; and I venture to suggest that the Government should do everything in their power to restore Parliamentary control and Parliamentary methods of procedure. I am not going into the question of economy at length. I believe it to be vital, but I think that other speakers will deal with the subject. I would, however, say that some of the very largest items of expenditure to which this country is committed

  603
  are in connection with policies to which the Government were committed—in war-tame, I admit—before this House was ever consulted, and we have been faced with the position, not of being asked to approve a policy and vote money, but of having the bill presented to us for a policy which has been working in the country for some time before Parliament was consulted. There is the bread subsidy, for instance. I take this as an example because it is arguable that it was a good way of dealing with a great emergency; but it was adopted by the Government, and was working long before this House was asked for its opinion on it. And this is not the only matter to which the House is committed. There are four items of expenditure, averaging £50,000,000 each, to all of which we were committed by the action of the Government before the House was ever consulted. I urge that this question of Parliamentary control should also apply to finance. I am not on Committee C, but I do not think that most of the members of Committee C would regard that as a satisfactory method of exercising Parliamentary control. I am not anxious to put forward my own views, but merely to raise this question and get from other hon. Members more valuable expressions of opinion on this difficult constitutional question. There is not the least doubt that the object of the extremists is to overthrow Parliament.
  Those who watch the history of revolutions in other countries would, I think, say that the critical moment in the history of these revolutions comes at the point where Parliamentary authority is checked. It has been the overthrow of Parliament itself which has brought ruin upon Russia and many other countries. It has been the overthrow of the firmest foundation for all constitutional authority, and that is the government of the people by themselves through their elected representatives. That is where the crisis occurs, and when I know that revolutionists are striking at this House, and are anxious to overthrow the whole government of the country, I should like to enter as emphatic a protest as I can against the way in which a number of people, who talk as if they were supporters of law and order, who have everything to lose if there is disaster, never lose an opportunity of running down every Member of the House and everything to do with the House of Commons. I have seen in the Press violent denunciations of
  604
  the Members of the House. I remember seeing how we were all breaking our pledges, whereas the newly-elected House had not met, and we had not at the moment had an opportunity of raising those pledges. When we see attacks of that unfair kind made upon all Members of Parliament, I hope I am not wrong in making some protest against the line of thought in the Press and in private conversation which is tending to undermine the only proper foundation for government in this country, and which is unconsciously undermining and destroying the proper authority of government.
  Colonel LAMBERT WARD: I think it would be well before this House goes into Recess to obtain from the Government some definite line upon which they intend to effect those economies without which in a very short time this country will be plunged into bankruptcy. I do not think it would be sufficient to obtain from them a mere general assurance that it is hoped to effect those economics in some general way, because that will not restore the confidence of the business classes of the community, and unless it is restored we cannot expect to see that revival of trade and business which is so essential to the welfare and future prosperity of this country. Although to all intents and purposes the War has been over for some time, we are still pouring out money at the rate of £4,500,000 a day, a sum so colossal that to the ordinary mind it ceases almost to have any meaning. A short time ago the issue of the Victory Loan was closed. The Leader of the House a few nights ago said he considered that Loan a great success, and he congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer and all those who had taken part in the work of promoting it on their success, and yet the whole amount of new money which it obtained would be spent in financing this country in the short space of three and a half months. It is absolutely vital that expenditure should be reduced by at least 50 per cent, before we can claim to have taken even the first step towards re-establishing national credit in the markets of the world. I think it would be of the greatest possible advantage to the trade of the country if some definite scheme could be produced of how the Government intend to proceed with this very difficult task. It would go further than anything else I can suggest to allay that anxiety which is now felt in the country, and which

  605
  I know is felt amongst those hard-headed business men of the big Yorkshire city which I represent—an anxiety lest the Government in desperation should turn towards some extensive scheme of universal or general nationalisation in the hope of assisting the present financial position of the country. Many people, whether rightly or wrongly, read in the Ways and Communications Bill an attempt by the Government to nationalise the railways. Many people read, in the present silence of the Government on this subject, an attempt to introduce a still further and still more extensive scheme of general nationalisation. This is not the time, when trade is faltering and our credit is failing, to embark upon schemes which previous experience has shown only too well to be financial failures. After all, nationalisation is only a form of Government control, a state of affairs which we have experienced for more than three years. The state of war which we have just passed through has, perhaps, rendered it necessary, but it is not a condition of things which as a permanency I or anyone else would look forward to with any degree of pleasurable anticipation. I think most people who approach this subject with an open and unbiassed mind will agree that hitherto all experiments in nationalisation have been a failure, in that they have not provided the employés with an appreciably higher standard of living and that they have increased the cost enormously both to the consumer and to the taxpayer. In short, the experiments which this country has made hitherto in nationalisation—and we have made several already—have tended to prove four things, first, that the conditions of employment are little better than those given by private employers, she employés are no more contented or satisfied, the service from the point of view of the general public is distinctly worse, and the cost to the consumer and the taxpayer is largely increased. Let us glance through the various experiments in nationalisation which have been recently made.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not see how that subject is relevent. No nationalisation of any property can take place without an Act of Parliament. We cannot on this occasion discuss future legislation. We are confined on this occasion to administration.
  Lord R. CECIL: Would it be in order to press the Government to make a declaration of their policy, which is an executive act?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think they want much pressing. I have heard the Leader of the House say every other day he was giving an answer on that very point. He said, before the end of the Session, the Government were going to make a statement.
  Lord R. CECIL: I am merely asking whether in point of fact it is not open to Members of Parliament, who desire to know when the Government are going to make that statement, to press upon them the importance from the executive point of view of making a statement as early as possible in order to quieten agitation in the country. I am not discussing whether it is desirable.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It might be in order, no doubt, but it would really be superfluous. The question has been asked over and over again, according to the Leader of the House, and the answer has been repeatedly given.
  Lord R. CECIL: If I had to argue the desirability of the proposition, I would point out that we have been wholly unable to obtain from the Government any indication of the day on which they are going to do it. For all we knew, they may be going to do it on the last day of the Session, when it will be perfectly impossible for the House to discuss it. There are very many Members who feel very strongly indeed that the Government are playing with this question and are grossly failing in their duty.
  Mr. SPEAKER: That may be. All I say is that the matter cannot be discussed now, because it would involve legislation.
  Lord R. CECIL: But we can discuss the question whether they should make a declaration?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That has been discussed over and over again.
  Lord R. CECIL: But we are entitled to discuss it now, surely?
  Colonel WARD: I will merely endeavour to obtain from the Government some definite statement as to how they intend to curtail the expenditure which is going on at present, at what I think everyone considers a most excessive rate, and I do not

  607
  see how the country can possibly afford to continue it for an indefinite time. If we can succeed in persuading them to make this statement it would certainly relieve the anxiety of many business men and of almost every business community throughout the country, if at the same time they could see their way to let the House definitely understand that, whatever steps they may take to curtail the expenditure, experiments in nationalisation will not be made, and they will not plunge this country into a series of expensive experiments which can only lead to financial disaster.
  Sir J. WALTON: Our present financial position is one of extreme gravity, and I desire to urge upon the Government the importance of presenting an up-to-date balance-sheet showing clearly the actual estimated expenditure and revenue for the year 1919–20 entirely separate from the accounts of previous years, the probable total of our national indebtedness at the end of the current year, and how they propose to discharge these enormous obligations. This is the only way to bring home to the people of the country the real financial position in which we stand and the urgent necessity for the practice of rigid economy, not only on the part of the Government, but on the part of every individual member of the nation, if we are to avoid at no far-distant date national bankruptcy. May I refer to what now appears to be the expenditure which will be incurred in 1919–20? The Budget stated £1,435,000,000, but there were Appropriations-in-Aid of £254,000,000 written off in the £1,435,000,000, and this £254,000,000 was derived from the sale of war material created by expenditure in previous years, and was therefore a realisation of assets belonging to previous years, which ought to have been directly written off the floating debt of the country, and not mixed up with the accounts of 1919–20 at alt. The same applied on the other side of the account when we were told that the revenue would be £1,201,000,000, and that included £200,000,000 derived from the sale of war material which was to take place in the current year. That is a realisation arising from expenditure in previous years also, and also ought to be written off the floating debt of the country. That £454,000,000 requires to be added to the £1.435,000,000, and makes the expenditure very much greater, but the way I treat it
  608
  is to take it off the £1,201,000,000, and to say that the revenue, according to the the Government's own showing, is £1,011,000,000, and that leaves a deficit of £688,000,000, and not of £233,000,000, as claimed by the Government.
  But the situation has been further changed since the Budget. There is a supplementary coal bill of £26,000,000 being passed through the House. There was a Supplementary Estimate on the 30th of June of no less than £75,000,000, though the Budget was only introduced at the end of April. There is now announced, this week, an addition of £25,000,000 in pensions. They are to be £98,000,000 instead of £73,000,000. I do not begrudge that £25,000,000 expenditure, because the first duty of the nation is to deal generously with those who have become cripples, or who have left dependants to be provided for by fighting in the service of their country and saving their country. But still we have got to find the money. In addition, there is the change in exchange that has taken place. America lent us £800,000,000. A month ago we could have paid off that £800,000,000 with £800,000,000 of British money, but within a month the exchange has fallen; it fell 12¾ per cent., and even to-day, when it has improved slightly, it is 10 per cent. below what it was a month ago. That means that it would take us to-day £880,000,000 to discharge that £800,000,000. That is £80,000,000 more, and £4,000,000 more in interest alone, so that instead of £40,000,000, the interest will be £44,000,000. Those extra new items since the Budget was introduced amount to no less than £212,000,000, and I say, beyond contradiction, that the total deficit, as regards actual expenditure, on the real revenue, for the year 1919–20, as now ascertained, is close upon £500,000,000.
  It is true that we had the Victory Loan, and, as the hon. Member opposite stated, it was claimed as a great success. It was to a certain extent a success. We got £485,000,000 of new money, and we rejoice in this success. But it is wholly inadequate if we are going to provide properly for the financial needs of the current year. Up to the 2nd of August we had received against that £485,000,000 of new money no less than £385,000,000, but we still have £750,000,000 of short-dated Treasury Bills and £433,000,000 of Ways and Means balances owing to the Bank of England. There are no less than £1,200,000,000 of short-dated obligations to be raised, if you

  609
  deduct the remaining £101,000,000 new money that is left to come from the Loan— £1,200,000,000 of obligations falling due in the current year. I want to know how the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to raise this money. Not only that, but we have outstanding to-day £250,000,000 of Exchequer Bonds, short-dated, comparatively; we have £344,000,000 of War Savings Certificates, all short-dated, many falling due in 1921; we have got National War Bonds for five, seven, and ten years, all comparatively short-dated. Therefore the financial position to-day is more serious than it has ever been before, and the fact is that we shall need two more Loans as successful as the Victory Loan to square our accounts to the 31st of March next. There are the £1,200,000,000 short-dated obligations due in the current year, and then we still have the £593,000,000 of Exchequer Bonds and War Savings Certificates and those short-dated Loans to which I have referred. The time has come when the country ought to be told the plain truth about our financial position and when we ought to have no matters put off as they have been, but we ought to have from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a fresh statement, showing fully what are our obligations and how we propose to discharge them.
  Then the question of subsidies also arises. These subsidies are outside our ordinary expenditure altogether. They are excrescences, as it were. Sixty million pounds we are told is the deficit on railways. How that is arrived at heaven only knows! We have had question after question in this House to ascertain how it is arrived at, but personally I am thankful to believe that it will not be nearly £60,000,000. The latest statement is that for the traffic carried on their account the Government have paid less to the railway companies to the end of 1918 by £16,760,000 than they would have paid if the traffic had been carried at prewar rates, but the Government tell us that there will be a deficit of. £60,000,000, made up chiefly of the extra cost of labour. Then there is the £46,000,000 for coal, and if the taxpayers pay that it will have to be added also, but at present it is proposed that that should be got by raising the price 6s. a ton. But excluding the £46,000,000 for coal mines we have to contemplate a further addition for subsidising coastal steamers. That is the latest idea of a subsidy, and we have not the smallest idea, of what it will cost. I submit that all these subsidies are absolutely unsound as finance and that we
  610
  shall never reach a sound financial position until they are completely swept away. I believe that the charges made, for instance, on railways, should be such as would cover the cost of working the lines of railways with a reasonable return to the shareholders, and that the price of coal should be so fixed that it would cover the cost of its production. How does the Chancellor of the Exchequer propose to deal with this matter of subsidy? Why, the subsidies amount to more than our total national expenditure in pre-war days, which was something under £200,000,000!
  Another question of importance is that of currency. I not only have asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he proposes to deal with the matter of exchange, but also about currency notes. The Chancellor has told us the amount of legal tender existing in this country, which is two or three times what it was before the War. They have printed £342,000,000 of currency notes, £l and 10s. notes, and these have only got a backing of £28,500,000 of gold. I want to know what these currency notes stand against? We criticised Germany when they carried on the War there by setting the printing machinery to work and striking off paper money that passed as legal tender in Germany. We said that they were in an unsound financial position. Are we not doing the same thing? I do not believe that there is any justification for creating this enormous amount of paper money, and I would like to know what these currency notes are being issued against? [An Hon. Member: "John Bradbury!"]
  But the great problem is—how are we going to pay for our exports in the absence of enormously increased production? Production has decreased, our manufactures have decreased, freights, by the depletion, of our Mercantile Marine—for we no longer have half the carrying trade of the world—give a much smaller proportion, and therefore we shall have less in freights to pay for our imports. We no longer have the same amount of money coming to this country from foreign investments, because we parted with the greater part of them during the War. We have no longer export coal. We used to send 77,000,000 tons to Russia and the Argentine in ships which brought back wheat, and the coal paid for the wheat. We need the wheat, and in future we shall have to send our ships out light, which will mean double freights on the wheat. How are we going to pay for the wheat? How does the Chan-

  611
  cellor of the Exchequer think that we can provide for the payment of imports? The exchange is going against us, raising the price of all American produce that we have to import into this country. The only way that we can avoid bankruptcy is by the practise of rigid economy both on the part of the Government and the nation, which has not been practised up to the present. Increased industry and increased production is the only way of saving the situation. [An Hon. MEMBER: "Less profits !"] There are not much profits left nowadays. If that were gone into my hon. Friend would be very much surprised; if we struck a balance sheet, for instance, as to how much the coal-owner, on the one hand, was going to get in the next two years, and how much the miner would get on the other hand, I think it would be a very favourable showing for the miner. That is only one part.
  What we need is the full restoration of Treasury control in finance and a discharge of those huge staffs that are still being employed in every Government Department. What has been done? It is perfectly absurd. At the time of the Armistice the total number employed in Government Departments was 420,500. Would you believe it, up to 31st March, four and a half months after the Armistice, that total had been reduced by only 22,000? I am told from various Departments that all attempts to cut down staffs are being resisted with the greatest tenacity and determination. I do not say that is so in every Department, but at any rate I can speak for two or three in regard to which the information I have got is practically first-hand. They were up against a stone wall, as it were, when any attempt was made to make a proper reduction in the staff. It is resisted in the Departments in a way which is a perfect disgrace to the employés in the Departments, and a disgrace to many of the heads of the Departments, who also cling to office. I think that a position such as I have described demands strong language, and I say unhesitatingly that it is high time the Treasury awoke to the fact that their duty is to put a speedy stop to this scandalous waste of public money caused by the over-staffing of Departments. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us a frank statement as to the steps he proposes to take to end this condition of things, which, if persisted in, is practically certain to end in
  612
  national bankruptcy. I could give example after example. What about the Slough Motor Repair Depot? At the time of the Armistice they could have stopped the whole thing. Yet they blindly go on spending £2,000,000, we are told, on the repair work, and they will have to spend another million on houses. That is just an example. I could give many examples of Air Board contracts. I could give examples in regard to Government shipbuilding yards at Chepstow and on the Wye—a most scandalous concealment of what the real facts were, month after month and almost year after year, and now when we know what really has been done there I do not hear of any strong censure of any public servant or of anyone being dismissed from his post because of the scandalous waste of public money that took place in connection with these most unfortunate undertakings.
  I do not wish to make an unfair attack upon public servants in any Department, and if I have uttered one word beyond what I was justified in doing, I unhesitatingly withdraw it. But I do say that the time has come when, instead of spending nearly £4,500,000 a day, our expenditure must be cut down, as one speaker ha8 said, by at least one-half in the not remote future. The Government and the Treasury do not employ the means at their hand for cutting down, as they ought to do. We have a Public Accounts Committee, but what are they engaged in? They are engaged in dealing with irretrievable past waste, not waste of the present time; they disclose only irretrievable past waste. Then the Committee on National Expenditure, of which my right hon. Friend is the distinguished chairman, recommended the appointment of an Estimates Committee, with a view of examining Estimates before they were submitted to the House, and of drastically cutting them down. It is true that the National Expenditure Committee has been reappointed under my right hon. Friend's chairmanship. But let our minds go back to the various Reports of that Committee, most valuable Reports, made after the closest examination. I want to know to how many of the recommendations that they have made practical effect has been given? I submit that a great part of them have been ignored. This question of national revenue on the one side and national outgoings on the other is one which is affecting vitally the economic recovery of this country. There

  613
  is no question to which the Government, and especially the Treasury, could devote themselves with greater advantage to the whole nation than the immediate and drastic cutting down of expenditure in every Department. I am glad to hear that they have withdrawn their proposals to augment the salaries of members of the. Government. I voted, very much against my personal inclination, against the Grant of £585,000 yesterday, and supported the reduction of the amount, because I felt that I could not advocate rigid economy in every branch of the Service and vote these Grants, to some of the men especially who were getting them, who are wealthy men. Not that I do not recognise the magnificent services that they have rendered to their country.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Grants are not included in this Bill at present.
  Sir J. WALTON: I apologise. All I say, in conclusion, is that I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will really come out into the open and make a frank statement to the country. Especially, I would urge him to draw a true balance-sheet, not a faked balance-sheet—because the balance-sheet which was published was, to my mind, a faked balance-sheet—to make a plain business statement to the country, showing the liabilities on the one side and the assets on the other, and how the deficiency is to be provided.
  5.0 P.M.
  Mr. ATKEY: I have been a Member of this House for six months, and this is the first occasion on which I have ventured to address it. It seems to me that I could not choose a more fitting topic on which to make a few observations than the subject of economy. I was brought up under principles which indicated that it was incumbent upon everyone either to earn or have money before proceeding to spend it. I have listened during the past six months with varying feelings of emotion to many speeches, but none has made a greater impression on me than those which have fallen from the lips of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and more particularly at those moments when the right hon. Gentleman has so earnestly, one might also say tragically at times, appealed to this House to help him in the matter of national expenditure. I am not rising with any other object than to accept the invitation he has given to Members. I would like to indicate one or two directions to which he might well turn his
  614
  attention if his desire in the matter of national economy is to be realised. It is very difficult for Members of this House to do anything very effective off their own bat, so to speak. They must take their cue and obtain their authority from the Government itself. I venture to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer need not appeal to this House, nor to apply any pressure or any authority he may possess, beyond the bench on which he sits. I do not know how far his authority extends in connection with other Government Departments, but I am quite certain that if he wants the authority of this House in order to bring pressure to bear with the view of taking any drastic action in connection with any Government Department which may stand in his path, he will get the very enthusiastic support of a large number in this House. With all humility and respect I would venture to suggest that he make a start on the War Office. If he cannot do anything with the War Office, I am certain he will find many Members who will consent to be his most humble servants in that connection. I always think it is a waste of time to make general complaints, or to speak in general, terms, where specific and urgent remedies are required. Although the particular case that I am going to lay before the Chancellor of the Exchequer is only very small, I suggest that a great Government organisation that can permit within its borders scandals of the character indicated requires the closest scrutiny where larger issues are at stake. Yesterday morning I received very opportunely a letter from Sir James McCraith, a man whose name stands high in the civic life of Nottingham. Here again I think it is always better to give full particulars when a complaint is being made. Sir James McCraith writes:
  "There is really such a wicked sample of the present Government waste of public money that I feel you ought to know of it. The facts are that the local anti-aircraft service is still kept in full swing with a colonel and other officers, and only about two months ago another gun was actually put up at Wilford."
  I can assure my right hon. Friend that during the War that gun would have been very heartily welcomed at Nottingham. It is interesting to note that at the time when we were suffering shock from nerves owing to air-raids on Nottingham, there were no guns. Now, apparently, it is in

  615
  accordance with up-to-date War Office methods that they proceed to fortify Nottingham. The letter continues:
  "Naturally both officers and men are here with practically nothing whatever to do. The general feeling of condemnation of those responsible is intense, and if I were you I would not only ask a question in the House but, if necessary, move the adjournment. Surely somebody should be punished, as it would be just as sensible to send submarines up the Trent."
  I give that to the Chancellor as an indication as to where he can look if he really wants his urgent appeals for economy to have their due effect. I can assure him that all these appeals to Members of this House will fail because we are helpless when we go to the country and attempt to preach economy so long as the finger of scorn can be pointed at the Government as witnessed by the letter which I have just read. He has, in my judgment, a wealth of willing workers and talent available in this House to cooperate with him in the directions that he seeks, and if he is as earnest as his words would suggest I do point out to him that there is a means of co-operation which he might very well consider. There is another aspect of the economy problem as to which I desire to hear some opinion from the Chancellor. We have all heard and listened with very great attention to the many schemes which during the life of this Parliament have been laid before it, and I suppose none of those schemes has received a heartier welcome than that of housing. But there is a financial side to the housing problem, and I do suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give a lead to the country and tell us exactly where the country is going in the matter of expenditure on the housing schemes. I am the more particularly interested in this, because, so far as I can gather, a great number of the houses which are to be put up and subsidised by the Government will not be houses which come within the ambit of the men on whose behalf we desire to do so much. There again the Government, whilst suddenly becoming virtuous on the subject of coal and telling us that they could not consent to schemes of subsidising that industry and that the consumer must pay in a straightforward manner, yet in the housing scheme, so far as I can gather, a larger subsidy is being given, and the problem of selecting the class of the community, which can only be very small, which is going to enjoy
  616
  this subsidy is one that, I fear, is not going to produce throughout the length and breadth of the land that peace and happiness which has been foreshadowed in the launching of the scheme. I very definitely request the Chancellor, in his reply, to give us, if he can, some estimate or some idea of the amount of money, and the amount of loss, which will have to be met in respect of the housing scheme. Then the House and the country can see what the position is. It does not seem to me to be fair for Ministers in this House and politicians up and down the country to go and paint lurid pictures of the happiness they are going to bestow upon the people without at the same time incidentially mentioning—it ought to be done, at least, in a more or less casual way, but it ought to be mentioned—what it is going to cost them.
  There is only one other Department I desire to mention and that is the Board of Trade, because it seems to me that the Board of Trade are extravagant, not only as regards themselves, but as regards the public, and I think that these Government Departments require a considerable amount of overhauling and putting on, what might be called a real business footing. We have been told by the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary that every question in this House costs the country a sovereign apiece. [An Hon. MEMBER: "Two!"] That was the information given to the House. I desire-to draw the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to this fact, that until he can persuade the Board of Trade to provide intelligent answers to questions and to give due attention to rational questions put to them, there is likely to be a drain on the resources of this country of at least £l per week until he has persuaded the President of the Board of Trade to give the people of Nottingham access to the Midland Railway Station. I suggest that by that means he can carry into practical effect economy which he so earnestly desires.
  My only object in rising was to point out one or two instances where it seemed to me that information of a useful character could be afforded in his reply to this Debate by the Chancellor. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, so far as I am personally concerned—and I feel that I represent in this respect a very large body of opinion in this House—ourcriticisms are not intended to be of an unfriendly character.

  617
  I feel all the more at liberty to make that observation because I have heard it stated that party feeling in this House makes criticism from the Opposition, official or otherwise, to a certain extent, discounted by the Government. In this instance I can assure the Government I came to this House filled with the desire to render such measure of public service as lay within my power so long as I was able to give it. I venture to think that, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the various Ministers of the Government were to get more closely into touch with the rank and file of the Members, and were to take them more into their confidence with regard to the schemes they have in mind, I am quite sure the legislation which would result would be framed upon lines which would meet very often with more general acceptance in view of the fact that it would crystallise a larger range of vision and more varied views, such as are contained in the House, rather than those which are only within the official Government circle. Under those cicumstances I think that the policy of the Government would be more likely to receive the approval and accord of the people of the country.
  Mr. CAIRNS: I desire to refer to the increase in the price of coal by six shillings per ton. I think that some of the speeches we have heard do not help smooth working. I have never been anything but in favour of constitutional action. I am not in favour of "direct action." I know that that will go forth to the country, and I want it to do so. I believe we must all realise that the salvation of this country lies in greater production. As to the coal trade I do not believe it wants any stilting and that it can stand on its own feet if it is fairly dealt with. I do not think the six shillings increase is economically sound. It has been said that that increase has to be put on to the price in order to pay increased wages as set forth in Mr. Justice Sankey's Report. What are the figures. Miners over sixteen years of age in and about mines will get 2s. per day increase, and those below sixteen years will get one shilling increase. That will work out at 1s. 8d. for a million miners in Britain. That is 4s. 4d. less than the six shillings. The President of the Board of Trade estimated the production to be 270 million tons. I have been secretary to the Northumberland miners for twenty-five years, and I am sure the House will agree
  618
  that I am therefore acquainted with the economic conditions in the country. I took the figures out before the War, and they were confirmed by Lord Joicey and a Professor who was an authority on the subject. The figures in 1914 were per ton for hewers 2s., datal hands 1s., royalty 1s., plant 1s., from pit to ship f.o.b., insurance 3d., compensation 2d., making a total of 6s. 5d. The two and a half times increase makes that 14s. 0½d., war wage is 1s. 8d., and carriage to London 7s. All those items give a total of 24s. 8½d. The President of the Board of Trade said the figure was £1 6s. I have seen coal billed in London windows at 60s., and I want to know, representing the miners, who gets the difference of 36s. It is said that the miners are getting it, but that is not correct. We have miners who are working at present for 7s. and 8s. per day, so that it is not fair to say that the miners are getting it. The output of coal is down, and that is due to many reasons which I need not go into. We have lads that have come back that have been shelled and gassed and crippled in other ways, and they cannot follow their work, and there are others who cannot follow their work with the same efficiency as before, and it must be remembered, also, that seams are getting thinner than they used to be.
  I hope there is no one in this House who will charge the miners with malingering. A member here who never was in a coal pit, and who never did a day's work in his life, said the miners were jockeying for a price. They work very hard indeed, and they work all the day. It is said they have short hours—seven hours, and shortly six hours. In 1873, when the selling price of coal was 18s. a ton for best, we had six hours in the Northern counties. The prices in 1918, net ascertained, came out at 22s. 6d. a ton. That is, of coal sold, after allowing 1s. 9d. for workmen's coals and colliery consumption. In 1886 the net prices were 4s. 4.62d., a difference of 18s. 2d. per ton, as compared with the 22s. 6d. Thus, since 1886 the price of coal has gone up five times, but the men's, wages have only gone up three and three quarter times. I hope subsequent speakers will not use the speeches which have been, used. Leaders of men outside have got sufficient to do, and I say that this is a coward's House. If a man rises here and makes a speech against leaders outside who have no chance of replying, I say it is like a coward's House. The price of 60s.

  619
  is not the real price. In pre-war times we in Northumberland used to export 80 per cent. of the coal raised at 60s., 70s., and 90s. a ton, and we used to get goods in return. I hope this House and the country will no longer say that it is the miners who are getting this 6s., and I challenge the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the President of the Board of Trade, or any other Minister, to contradict ray figures. They have been used in more than one Commission, and they are facts. The miners do not get this increase, and I hope the people of this country will disabuse their minds of that belief.
  Major COURTHOPE: I wish to support the plea which was made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton (Major Tryon) for the restoration of Parliamentary control, and before doing so I should like to thank him for introducing the subject and to congratulate him upon his clear and courageous presentment of his ease. There is hardly any limit to the instances and examples that one might bring forward in support of this plea, but I propose to limit myself, in the very brief remarks with which I shall trouble the House, to two or three examples as they affect agriculture and agricultural policy. They are examples which are known to the House, and it is only necessary to remind the House and the Government of them in order to make my case. I bring them forward not with the object of finding fault with the system which was established during the War, but in order to suggest that that system should be brought to an end at the earliest possible moment now that the War is over for fear that such cases should arise again. First of all, let us look at two or three matters vitally affecting agriculture which have arisen out of the food control, and which may arise again if the food control is continued for long. We will take, first of all, the case of the control of meat. I need not go into any detail, but I want to remind the House how horrified Members for rural constituencies, and, I believe, the whole House, were when they discovered, after this control of meat had been in existence for some eighteen months, that it was costing over £5 per animal handled. That had been concealed. The instant the House became aware of that and questions began to be asked and nasty things said, that expenditure was knocked on the head and reduced to an infinitesimal figure. Another
  620
  case in point occurred with reference to wheat. As far as Members of this House could make out, the policy with regard to foodstuffs, and particularly wheat, was not only not decided by this House, but it was not even decided by the Government. It was dictated to our Food Controller, as far as we can make out, by Mr. Hoover, from the United States of America, and one result of this control as it affected wheat was that we discovered, again after many months of ignorance and after many unsuccessful attempts to get at the truth, that the Government was actually paying for imported wheat, ex-ship, as much as 30s. a quarter more than the maximum—the maximum, mark you—price which they had imposed upon home-grown wheat. I am not arguing that the maximum price ought to have been more or less. That is not my point. My point is that such things ought to be-impossible without the knowledge and assent and definite action of Parliament There again, as soon as the House realised what was taking place, a fuss began to be made, and steps were promptly taken to ameliorate the position, and I think to a very large extent it has been ameliorated, but so long as the control continues in its present form the recurrence of these scandals, because they are nothing less, is liable to arise without the knowledge and behind the backs of Parliament.
  Now, there are two other cases that are taking place now which I think I ought to mention. This House passed a Corn Production Act, one of the provisions of which was to set up a general minimum wage for agriculture of 25s., and wages boards which would locally adjust that minimum wage, and from that moment the control of agricultural wages has passed out of the hands, not only of the Government, but, what is much worse, out of the hands of the House. If there is to be economic control of wages in these matters, it should be exercised by the House of Commons, and, although at the time that these statutory powers were given to the wages boards, I think the whole House contemplated that the adjustments of local wages would circle round the minimum of 25s. inserted in the Bill, without this House having any further opportunity of giving directions in the matter the minimum has gone up from the neighbourhood of 25s. to the neighbourhood of 38s. or 38s. 6d. Again, I am not arguing that that wage is wrong, but I say that action of that kind should be taken by the House and not

  621
  by a Body outside, even if that body derives its original sanction and authority from an Act of Parliament, and there is a great danger that this kind of thing is to be repeated now. The Prime Minister appointed the other day a Royal Commission to inquire into certain economic aspects of agriculture. It was recognised in this House, and, I believe, correctly recognised, that the desire of the Government in appointing that Commission was to obtain accurate and general information of the fanners' profit and loss account, to enable them to frame a sound agricultural policy.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): Hear, hear!
  Major COURTHOPE: What has happened? We are informed, I believe correctly, that while the Government, on the one hand, are pressing for their prompt Report on that profit and loss account, the Commission appointed for that purpose is deciding to go into questions of land tenure, nationalisation, and other matters of that kind. I do not say they are Considering them immediately, but they have decided that those questions are within their scope, and the evil is this, that the public has become so accustomed to the settling of policy, and great financial matters by outside bodies—
  The PRIME MINISTER: Will my hon. and gallant Friend allow me to interrupt him? I do not know what the Commission has done, but certainly it was never contemplated by the Government that they should go into great questions of policy of that kind.
  Major COURTHOPE: I should like to thank the Prime Minister for giving that support to my case. We know well that the Government wanted the farmers' profit and loss account. They did not intend, and the House did not intend, that the Commission should go into the wider policy, but the Commission has announced its intention and the effect on the public mind is this. The public is accustomed to receive the dictation of policy from bodies outside the immediate control of Parliament, and I know myself, as a rural Member, that I am receiving many communications on this subject in which those who write them assume that this Commission set up for the one purpose will be deciding the future of the rural land of the country. I say it is deplorable. I am not suggesting that the Government for a
  622
  moment would take any notice of any recommendations from this Commission dealing with these great matters. I do not believe the Government would—certainly not unless they altered the composition of the Commission. What I deplore is that the public should think that the policy for the future ownership of land, questions of tenure, and all questions between owner and occupier, as well as farmer and employed, are to be conducted by an outside body of this kind. I do hope that this form of work by an outside body will be brought to an end, and that any other outside body set up will be far more strictly limited in the terms of reference to the work they are intended to do, and that the big questions of policy will be restored to the rightful place, namely, Parliament.
  I know quite well that Minsters are sincere in their desire to bring the bureaucratic methods, which were necessary during the War, to an early end, but I would remind them that it is notorious in history that bureaucracies always die hard. It is natural that they should do so. However anxious the Minister in charge of a number of bureaucratic Departments may be to bring them to an end, there must be many in those Departments who do not wish their work to come to an end. It may be from patriotic motives, or from motives of private gain, but there must be many who do not wish their work to come to an end, and there are many in responsible positions who hesitate to throw on the world people who, for the past few years, have worked loyally and well under them. It makes the death of bureaucracy very hard, and very slow, and I do urge upon the Government not to be satisfied with their own desire to bring these things to an end, and restore the control of policy and finance to Parliament, but to take such steps—and take them now—as will render that restoration not only definite but also immediate.
  Captain D. BROWN: I rise to make a few remarks solely to support the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton on the subject of the control of Parliament over our national finance. It seems to me, when we consider this Commission which has recently sat on the coal question, that it has missed to a very large extent the very object for which it was created, and, so far as this House is concerned, we are being placed in a very deplorable position. The coal question which the Commission was set up to solve was taken from our power

  623
  entirely. It has never yet been debated in this House, and this House has been given no opportunity of giving a lead to the country. It seems to me a great fault. I am only a very young Member of the House, and do not know much how things are carried on here, but it does seem a great pity that this House should not have some chance of debating these questions before a definite policy is put forward. I should like to say, too, that I think another very evil tendency has come out of this Royal Commission. I happen to represent a constituency which is partly agricultural and partly mining, and I find, as the result of one section of the community being placed in the limelight in this way, that a feeling of antagonism has arisen between the two sections in the country, and I am perfectly certain that is the result of the absence of discussion in this House.
  I really rose to talk about economy. I confess I was disappointed when I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer to a question to-day, tell us that he would be only too pleased if the House would assist him in the matter of economy. So far as I can see, the complaint is not with the House, but it is with the Government themselves. I take an interest in the housing question, and I should like very much to know what steps the Government really took to see that the finance of this question was put on a sound basis before they allowed the scheme to be put forward. I know we were expected to look forward to a million houses being erected. It so happens that the cost per house at the present moment is, I understand, rapidly reaching £l,000, and one has only to make a slight calculation to discover that this housing scheme, so far as finance is concerned, is going to send this country into bankruptcy absolutely. I can only suggest, with great respect, to the Government, that it is very unfortunate that they do not go into the finance more carefully, because these matters always come home to roost, and how we are going to raise the money to pay the bill is beyond me. I am a supporter of the Government; I do not wish to attack them, but I do wish to criticise them a little, because I do not think they have approached the matter in the right spirit. A policy is settled, and, apparently, finance is the last thing which is considered. We had an instance in the Debate to-day of economies which might be effected in the War Office, but I think
  624
  myself that mere economies are not enough. We have seen in this House efforts made to cut down a few salaries here, an Under-Secretary is knocked out there, and Ministers' salaries were not raised the other day. But all those are merely pinpricks; something more drastic has got to be done. We have got to cut out something from our expenditure.
  Let me give an illustration. We have a most expensive Air Force which runs into a great deal of money. My point is this: When the Estimates are produced to us, it is surely our duty to say, "How much can we cut these Estimates down? Can we knock off £1,000,000 or £2,000,000?" I think we have to decide, first of all, whether we can afford an Air Force at all. We ought to decide whether we actually can afford to have these big items, and then—and then only—can we go on to see how much we may spend. But unless we cut down in some very drastic measure, I really do not see how we are to save ourselves from bankruptcy.
  I should like to apply that method to a policy, a declaration as to which we have been urging for some time, and which we never receive. The question of nationalisation is before the country. What is the first thing that that means? The State has to put down a great sum of money for the purchase of royalties or other things in connection with the coal-mining industry. Are the Treasury consulted? When the Government hesitates to say anything, why cannot they say, "We cannot consider the matter. It involves a vast expenditure of money for the Treasury. We cannot, at this moment, ever think of schemes which will cost money." I feel sure that if the Government would only give the lead to the country, it would have a great effect. I know they have had a tiring and a long Session, and are now going to have a rest. I know these financial matters require very active and fresh minds to deal with them. I sincerely hope, when they return from their rest, we may see the fruits of it.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: I should like to take the opportunity of congratulating my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton on striking the first blow for the restoration of Parliamentary government in this country, and the removal of the dictatorship under which we have been suffering for so long. The times are so serious that I think the Government would not desire that private Members in the

  625
  House should not speak very frankly. We all know the Chancellor of the Exchequer has this question at heart. We are trying to help him against his colleagues, and I really think, after this afternoon, he will begin to see the House of Commons is with him, and if he only keeps stiff when advances are made to him, he will have the support of the House against wild extravagance, because there is no other description of the policy of the Government during these last two or three years. The present state of the country seems to me to be due not to any one cause. It is due to a combination of causes, and I would like to try to indicate what they are. First of all, I believe that one of the most serious steps that was ever taken—it was doubtless taken owing to the stress of the War, although I think it was unnecessary—was when the present Prime Minister—he was not Prime Minister at that time—intervened in the dispute of the coal miners in South Wales. I have spoken to very many people who were interested on both sides in the dispute, and they are almost unanimous in saying that they believe they could have come to a just settlement, especially in view of the fact that the country was threatened with such a terrible crisis. Instead of that, the Prime Minister went down to South Wales, and I think I am right in saying he granted the whole, or very nearly the whole, of the demands of the miners. I think, if the right hon. Gentleman will look up the facts again, he will see that he went an extraordinarily long way. Anyhow, the impression in South Wales among all the mine-owners is that he went almost as far as he possibly could go. I am not going to dispute whether that was a right or a wrong decision. I say it was a fatal policy for a member of the Cabinet, however wise, to go into an industrial dispute, to settle the matter without having real knowledge of the industry, and set a fashion which has gone on ever since, and which has deprived the country of the final appeal of the Government when you come to a state of affairs that you cannot reach a settlement.
  Surely it is best that the Government should not be involved in these disputes. They ought to step in as a last resort We know full well how the common sense of masters and men thousands of times manages to settle these disputes, and I submit it was a most unfortunate thing that we made that change in policy at that time. At the commencement of
  626
  the War, the railwaymen and transport workers had two great programmes which they regarded as of vital importance. Owing to the outbreak of war they abandoned their policy, for which they were prepared to fight at that time, solely on patriotic grounds. And yet we have a member of the Cabinet who went to South Wales and settled the miners' dispute in the manner I have indicated, with the result that immediately the extremists in the railway world and in the transport world said, "Oh, but the leaders in South Wales, by exercising pressure, have managed to get out of the Government all, or very nearly all, they desire, and you, our leaders, on account of the War, have let the opportunity go by." That was putting a premium on extremism. I hope the Government will not interfere in disputes in the first place again, that we shall not have the Prime Minister going from his task in the Cabinet as a strike conciliator, and that he will not be called in to settle all these disputes over the head of industry.

  The second question which is causing such a great unsettlement in the country undoubtedly is that of the high cost of living and undue profits. I think the word "profiteer" is a most unfortunate one. It induces a complete confusion as to the facts and has led us to this present misunderstanding. I do hope we shall be a little more careful in our definitions, and carefully discriminate between what are legitimate profits esential to an industry and excessive profits which are gained at the expense of the country in its time of stress. The Government have announced already that they are taking steps to bring in a new measure to deal with profiteering. I do not want to deal with that subject now, but it is undoubtedly one of the causes of unrest and of the present difficult situation, and I hope that the Government will be very successful in this enterprise. But their policy cannot succeed unless the Cabinet and members of the Government as a whole—and I venture to add, all the Members of this Houses—take steps at the earliest possible moment to bring home to the whole of the country the real peril of the situation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may make speeches in this House. Unfortunately the newspapers which are mostly read by the working classes do not report his speeches, and the consequence is that the working classes of the country do not get a fair chance of a real

  627
  understanding of the extreme gravity of the situation. However, I hope that on this question of profiteering steps will be taken up by the Government to see that the facts are explained, so that everyone will know what are the costs of the raw material, and of the labour in making up those raw materials; what are the costs of making up finally the raw material compared to pre-war prices, so that those concerned will see at once that what is generally and widely described as profiteering is very frequently due to natural causes.
  Thirdly, the real reason which has brought about this state of affairs is the unlicensed agitation which has been permitted to go on in this country. I know that views are held—and have been held for a very long time in this country—that it is a good thing to have a safety valve. I cannot help thinking, however, that when our ordinary political disputes have been sunk, and when one particular cause is being advocated the whole time by extremists, and there is no one to answer that propaganda, it is likely to have a very disastrous effect. Time and again Members of this House have brought to the attention of the Home Secretary the fact of utterances which have been made, or pamphlets which have been printed, practically inciting the people of this country to revolution, yet for some reason or other the Government has held its hands. You can go too far with this policy. I hope the Government are not going to permit this kind of thing to go on much longer, because if a blatent revolution is preached insistently week after week it is only natural that a large number of people will begin to think that the preaching of that policy is no crime. The hon. Member for Brighton pointed out that one of the very unsettling factors is the fact that this House has lost power. We see it in two ways. I do not want to dwell upon it, but it has been amply demonstrated. Great decisions have been come to by the Cabinet with no reference whatever to Parliament. We are voting millions for various causes resulting from the War, and the various effects of the War, in order to meet liabilities, without Parliament having given any thought, much less a decision, on the question. Consequently, we have this endeavour in the country to still further deprive Parliament of its power, and also once more—and I am correctly describing it now—to have profiteering at the expense of the community owing to the
  628
  stress of the State. You have ceased to deal with small sections of the community who are seeking thus to deprive Parliament of its power, but I cannot help thinking, if we do not make a stand now, our task will be more difficult in the days to come. We have to show clearly that the nation shall be protected by Parliament, that we in this House cannot tolerate the possibility of women and children being starved, the possibility of disease sweeping throughout the land, simply because some agitator desires to call out large numbers of men who, frankly, do not understand the causes about which they are striking.
  The fourth point is that of Governmental extravagance. We have heard a great deal about this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I know, cannot personally be held responsible for the various Departmental details of expenditure. I do think, though, it is high time to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, and the Prime Minister jointly with him, to say that a distinct mandate shall go to every single Department to the effect that expenditure must be cut down. There is no other course open. It must be cut down, or this country will be completely destroyed beyond any chance of recovery. I would also like to put one or two more questions to the right hon. Gentleman, who, perhaps, will forward them to the War Office. There is the wildest extravagance still going on at the War Office in regard to the movements of troops in the country. About six or eight weeks ago the remnants of the regiment to which I have the honour to belong returned to England from Cologne, or somewhere else on the Western Front. What happened? They belong to Hertfordshire. I was astonished to hear that they had been sent straight off to Glasgow. They were returned back to the county, and no reason given for the journey both ways. That sort of thing is going on right and left. I have another little instance of the kind—and these are only two out of many hundreds which have come to my attention. A man belonged to the neighbourhood of Cardiff. He had been employed in an agricultural company which was sent to Blackheath in order to be demobilised. The company had served near to Cardiff. At Blackheath nothing was known of the men, so they were sent back to Cardiff. Once again they were ordered to Blackheath, and finally they were demobilised—at Cardiff. Surely something can be done to end this senseless extravagance in the

  629
  demobilisation of men from the Army which, we know, is going on throughout the country. There is a question on much the same lines which is having very serious effects. I cannot speak in this matter from first-hand knowledge, but I can tell my right hon. Friend that there is grave disquiet at the docks in regard to the handling of various perishable stuffs. At the docks there are great stores of food commodities and other commodities that require handling, and yet men are not able to find work! Here, again, it seems to me that we want more attention paid to these facts with a view of trying to see whether a very much stronger attitude cannot be taken up in all the Departments in dealing with this question of waste.
  The last point I want to make is in regard to unemployment benefits. As the House knows, this benefit was decided upon by the Government without any reference to this House. It was distinctly understood by the whole of the House—although the House would gladly have given its concurrence, yet the House was not asked to give its assent—that this unemployment benefit was to be given to the men who had been discharged from the Services and could not find work, and to men and women discharged from munitions work who were out of employment, until they had found their own industry. To the amazement of this House, three months ago we discovered that the Government was allowing unemployed benefit to be paid to men or women out of work, whether they had been displaced for war reasons or not, or—for a long time—whether or not they had been in any kind of employment before the War. That was very serious. It involved millions of money. Yet the House was never consulted. The House would never have given its sanction to a policy such as this. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman this question: As we all know there have been recent strikes in Yorkshire which have been very disastrous. Is unemployed benefit being paid to the men and women who, not as a result of the War, or the ending of munitions, but who, on account of that strike, are out of employment? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can answer that question before the end of the Debate, but has Parliament ever been consulted as to whether unemployment benefit should be paid to the workers of this country who are out as the result of a strike? It may be a wise policy. I doubt it very much. I cannot
  630
  see how you are going to bring that moral pressure to bear upon illegitimate strikes—and I describe those in Yorkshire as that—so long as you are giving doles to those affected by them. Is it a fact that that policy has been instituted without the sanction of Parliament?
  The cumulative effect of all these things is having such a result in this country—unless this House takes hold of this thing, grasps the nettle, and carries on the good work of the hon. Member for Brighton, that we must realise this fact—we are going downhill as rapidly as we can. I hope I am an optimist. I cannot, however, see any hope for this country unless we get an entirely different view-point of the tragedy facing us. There are agitators at the present time deliberately preaching at every street corner that capital must be destroyed. It is perfectly easy for the workers of this country to destroy capital. They have got to realise, though, that if capital is destroyed no more pensions will be paid, no more bread subsidies can be made, no more unemployed benefit can be given, and the whole system is going to collapse. These are facts. We are facing bankruptcy. Yet people do not regard bankruptcy seriously! It is our duty, surely, to point out to the country what it really means it what we fear may come about, namely, that we will be in a position similar to Russia, where all control has gone, and the country will come to have nothing but misery and destitution right throughout the width and breadth of the land. It is for the Government to lead in these questions. All men are looking to the Government to practise what they preach. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer in consultation with the Prime Minister will give a definite order to every Department forthwith to cut down all expenditure by at least 10 per cent. we shall be doing-something, and the House of Commons and the country will see we are doing our part to prevent disaster.
  Major GLYN: I rise to support what has been said by the hon. Member for Brighton. I do so because, possibly, as a new Member from Scotland I was returned very much on the idea of retrenchment with reform. The whole policy of Parliamentary control is inevitably bound up with the question of national economy and expenditure. I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if there is any hope in the near future that any of the

  631
  recommendations of Lord Haldane's Committee on the Machinery of Government may be made known? The Ministries Bill, which was introduced a couple of nights' ago, has been withdrawn for the present. There was no reference in that Bill to the recommendations of Lord Haldane's Committee, and I understand those recommendations have been considered by the Cabinet. There was one small point in regard to the possibility of Government book-keeping. The Ministry of Supplies and Munitions and the Disposal Board of that Department have it in their authority to get rid of the stores, both naval, military, and air, at the best prices they can, but I understand that in some cases no account is taken of the large sums of money expended both by the War Office and by the Admiralty in the care and maintenance of these stores prior to their sale.
  6.0 P.M.
  Cases have occurred where articles have been sold for a good price, but in the case of the War Office, if they had looked after those stores, the result would have been far different in profit to the country, and in some cases it would have been more economical if the stores had been destroyed. One or two hon. Members have spoken about laxity in regard to expenditure by the War Office. Whilst it is important to watch the expenditure under the War Office, we must see that the pendulum does not swing too far in the other way, although we must see the expenditure on military matters is cut down as much as possible. After every war there must be a tendency for the pendulum to swing back to what it was in peace time; and as regards the War Office policy, the General Staff are only too anxious to work in concert with public opinion.
  For the first time in our history, we have an enormous mass of the population understanding military affairs, and there is no reason to suppose that the men would not come forward most readily in case of an emergency. We feel that any system of military expenditure must be based on public opinion, and unless the House of Commons can exercise Parliamentary control over the Ministries, and express to Ministers what public opinion is in regard to the conduct of affairs, it seems to me that we shall have a cleavage as between the mandarins of the Cabinet
  632
  and their advisers and the public opinion of the country. It is high time now, when the Recess is approaching, and we are about to go back to our constituencies, that we should be able to show that these agents of direct action are using the organs of the Press to wilfully misrepresent what is being done by the Government towards economy.
  I am sure the whole bulk of opinion in this House tends towards the support of any scheme for national economy, but it does seem to me rather extraordinary that on that question there is a sort of tacit understanding in the Government that certain Ministries are first-class and others are second-class. It seems to me that the Ministry of Labour is one which holds a most important position, and is a Ministry of primary importance now, and if it is classed as a second-class Ministry, I think it is fake economy that the permanent officials of that Ministry should be paid at a lower rate than other Ministries whose functions are, not of such importance. True economy lies in the direction of reestablishing Parliamentary control over the machinery of permanent officials, and independent Members should feel that they are in such close touch with Ministers that they can bring forward the whole weight of public opinion to the assistance of any Minister who wishes to carry out retrenchment, which the whole country needs if we are not to go into national bankruptcy.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Chamberlain): The Debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill is always, and is almost of necessity, a rather discursive one, but as far as we have gone this afternoon there has been one main purpose in most of the speeches, namely, a desire to bring home to the House of Commons and the country the financial position, and make the Government realise the dangers of that position, and ask for some explanation as to their intentions in this matter. If I attempt to deal with this question on broad lines, hon. Members who have dealt with specific instances of apparent or evident waste will forgive me for not attempting to answer them. It is quite clear that I, in my office, cannot possibly know the details of the expenditure in other Departments. I have already sent to the War Office the letter read by the hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr. Atkey), and if he will

  633
  put a question to the Secretary of State for War, although I do not know whether the information will be ready to-day, certainly my right hon. Friend will give him the answer, and I do not think he will attempt to defend what is not defensible if that be the case.
  Similarly with the questions which have been raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Brigadier-General Croft). I have no personal knowledge of them, but I hope hon. Members will not wait for a Budget discussion or a Consolidated Fund Bill discussion to raise these questions, but I trust that they will take them up when such cases come to their knowledge, and take them at once to the Minister immediately concerned. It is not necessary for that purpose, or to make it effective, that an hon. Member should ask a question in the House. I remember when hon. Members have said to me in times past, "If you want to advertise yourself you will ask questions publicly, and if you want to do business you will go to the Ministers privately." After some experience of that, both as an unofficial Member and as a Minister, I commend that old Parliamentary wisdom to my colleagues.
  Mr. ATKEY: That is the practice I have adopted, and in the case of the Board of Trade I have hammered away for a mouth and have failed to get redress, and then I brought the matter here.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Of course, I can-not promise hon. Members, if they go to Ministers privately, they will always get what they want done, but very often you get better attention than it is possible for a Minister to give them when he only sees the question on the morning he has to reply. Those are details. My hon. and gallant Friend who opened the discussion said he would leave the question of economy rather to others, but he raised a particular issue of vast importance to the whole country and vital to the credit and usefulness of this House. He said, and said truly, that there are people in. this country, and I believe they are a very small minority, not merely of the people but of any class or section of the people, who have decided definitely to challenge Parliamentary government, and with it to challenge democratic government, and who are pursuing, in place of the old idea of democratic control through Parliament, narrow class control through direct action
  634
  outside Parliament and in defiance of Parliament. That is treason against this. House, in fact it is more, for it is treason against the country, and that way lies-disaster and anarchy, and the Government will take whatever steps are required, and can be well employed to defend the power and authority of Parliament against such attacks, from whatever quarter they may come.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: Even Ulster!
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I turn to what is more immediately my personal business. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton) adjured me to be frank. I hope he docs not imply that I have ever been otherwise. At any rate, even the statements I have made on financial questions I have tried to make as clear, full, and truthful as it was in my power to make them at any given moment when I spoke. Circumstances vary from time to time, and my expectations may fail to be realised. They may be affected by circumstances beyond our control or by measures within our control, it is true, but which we do not foresee, and yet they are necessary to take. The situation is one of gravity. I do not think that any good is done by exaggerating. It is as bad to be unduly pessimistic as it is to be unduly optimistic, but the situation is sufficiently difficult to need the good will and the active assistance of every class in the community.
  If we were to continue to spend at the rate we are spending now, it would lead us straight to national bankruptcy, and there is no doubt whatever about it if we cannot increase production beyond what we are producing now we shall go to national bankruptcy. Neither of these things alone, that is reducing expenditure without increasing production, or increasing production without reducing expenditure, will be sufficient to save the situation, and we have to do both if we are to get through the few difficult years that he before us before Europe can be said to have even turned the corner, not to have recovered, after the ravages and desolation of four and a half years of war. Let me say, and I had intended if it were possible to take this opportunity to say it, that the Budget position, the balance between expenditure and revenue for the year is less favourable this year than it was when I made my Budget statement. It is distinctly and seriously less favourable, and both sides of the account are

  635
  failing to realise my expectations. If you like to say I shall prove a false prophet you may put it that way, but the important thing for the House and the country to understand is that the forecast I made to the country in my Budget statement is not being realised.
  I will give the House one or two reasons. In the first place, the Peace negotiations took a longer time than we had anticipated. Demobilisation everywhere was delayed, and the military and naval expenditure are therefore greater than I anticipated. Not only so, but there is the disturbance of Europe to be taken into account. War was supposed to be concluded by the signature of the Armistice, but Members are continually talking of what is happening after so many months of peace. It is not peace. Active operations in Germany have terminated, but Europe is not at peace, let alone Asia, the actual war expenditure is continuing with all its consequences, both in calling for the retention of a greater number of men with the Colours and with the Fleet and with the concurrent expenditure which active service operations always bring. That is not all. The House knows that one after another large new blocks of expenditure have been sanctioned. For pensions, £20,000,000 this year; and between £20,000,000 and £24,000,000 next year. Then there is the increase in the pay of the Navy. I am sorry I have not all the figures with me at the moment. I cannot say what the Jerram Committee is to cost us in the future. We cannot say that until we know what the future of the Navy is to be. I have not the figures involved in the Estimates presented for the present year. Then there is a similar increase with regard to the Army. Further than that, the police will cost us another £4,500,000. These are a few of the big items. There are many others, smaller ones, over lappings which may be greater than anticipated, and some new expenditure which was not anticipated but which has had to be undertaken. The instances I have given are sufficient to show the House broadly why the expenditure is exceeding my estimate.
  Sir J. WALTON: Then there is the loss on exchange.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Will my hon. Friend allow me to pursue my own argument? To introduce the question of ex change at this moment is simply to destroy the continuity of my argument.
  Sir J. WALTON: I apologise.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I may tell the House equally bluntly that my anticipations in regard to receipts are not being realised now. I am not referring to receipts from taxation. I have no reason to suppose at present that these will not be realised, but it is too early in the year to revise the Budget estimate in that respect. Something, however, depends on the course of our industrial life. Great labour troubles may wreck our hopes, and seriously impair the yield of taxation. But at present I see no reason for anxiety there. I calculated that, just as this year there was a great deal of abnormal temporary expenditure to be met of a non recurrent kind, so there would be great abnormal temporary receipts to be set against it. Some of my hon. Friends think I was wrong to use those receipts in that way, but that is part of the Budget Statement. I do not want to turn aside to justify the practice now. My short answer is that if expenditure and revenue balance, the right process would be to use these receipts for the reduction of debt. But under present circumstances I cannot reduce debt, and I use them, therefore, to lessen the amount I have to borrow. There again my expectations are not being in all respects realised. Here again I may mention one very big item. We had anticipated that we should bring to an end food control. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Food Minister sang his swan song and was given a farewell greeting of a generous and appreciative kind.
  Mr. SEXTON: He was given notice to quit.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That may be the way my hon. Friend puts it, but we rightly expressed appreciation of the work that Minister had done. Still, we have had to alter our decision. The course of food prices has not been what was anticipated. The result of de-control has not been satisfactory, and under the circumstances the Government has felt it could not face the responsibility of doing away with food control, and has decided to continue it for a further period. This is not the moment to defend the Government action. I only mention it from the financial point, and I only venture to say in regard to it that there are primâfacie strong grounds for the reversal of policy. Indeed, I think an unanswerable case can be made in argument. But it was not done because we

  637
  love control, or because there was an office which wished to remain in being, or officials who desired to keep their jobs. It was done because the Government, after a survey of the situation, did not think it safe to relax food control at the present time. The winding up of food control meant the realisation of the vast trading stocks of the Ministry of Food and the return to the Exchequer of the trading capital therein invested. The continuation of the Ministry of Food means not the loss of capital, but that it must remain in the business and cannot be returned to the Treasury. Therefore, the receipts from that source which we anticipated are not coming in this year, although I hope they will come in next year. I speak from memory, but I think they were estimated at £70,000,000, and the House will see, therefore, what a serious effect that must have on the Budget Estimate which I presented to the House.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Is it proposed to increase the subsidies already given for food.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. This is not a question of subsidies at all. This is a question of capital in the business. If the business had been wound up the capital would have been returned to the Exchequer, but as the business is to be continued, the money must remain in it. But it is not the policy of the Government to increase the food subsidies, and a statement in regard to the bread subsidy was, it will be remembered, made in the House only the other day. My hon. Friend who spoke last gave certain illustrations of what has occurred. He was speaking of the realisations of the immense Government stocks accumulated for war purposes, and largely used for such purposes, but remaining over from the end of the War. All the circumstances with regard to their disposal have been considered. The disposal of this vast mass of material is not an easy matter, but I still hope that we shall realise within the year for the Exchequer the sum I anticipated in my Budget speech. Speaking, however, for myself, I am less confident than I was at that time. There are a great many people—and I am not now speaking merely of people at home—there are a great many people in the world who want things at the present time, and who will be able to pay for them eventually, but cannot now pay cash down. As regards some of these people it may be we had
  638
  anticipated finding in them purchasers for cash, and not only for cash but for cash convertible into sterling, but we may have to take obligations which we cannot at once convert into sterling, and again, therefore, the finances of the year may be disturbed. My hon. Friend pointed to cases where the expense of guarding the stores was greater than the value of the stores themselves. That is a danger which the Disposal Board has had to face. But those immediately concerned have to balance the prospect of getting such a value from the realisation of the stocks if they are husbanded and sold by degrees as they are marketable, against the lower price which can be obtained if they are put on the market at once—or indeed the absence of price if you force the sale. They have to compare the two positions and judge which is likely to be the more profitable transaction. I can only say that the Government have discussed this matter more than once with the Minister of Supply, who is well aware that it would be a penny wise and pound foolish policy to spend on marketing stores more than those stores will eventually fetch.
  Hon Members will, I hope, not grudge me the time I occupy in making this statement. I thought it was right to take the opportunity. I wanted an opportunity to inform the House to-night that my Budget Estimate will not be realised, and that the situation is worse than I foresaw in respect of the present year. The House will remember that I spoke of the Budget of this year as abnormal—quite abnormal expenditure and quite abnormal receipts, and I said that next year could not be normal. I do not think it can be. If next year you can balance your Budget, setting the abnormal receipts against the abnormal expenditure, I think you will have done well. That is what we ought to aim at. But it cannot be a normal year; some future year must be the normal year. I know that my Budget Estimate for this year will not be realised. I am beginning to wonder whether next year you can balance the expenditure, abnormal and normal, against the receipts abnormal and normal, without new taxation. It is too early to speak with confidence on that. But it will not unless we all of us exercise a wise economy, and not unless we find it within our power, as it must be within our will, to make drastic reductions.
  I beg the House to ask themselves when new expenditure is proposed, as I ask

  639
  myself, and as I put it to my colleagues, not merely, "Is this thing in itself desirable?" but "Is this thing so necessary to our safety or to justice, or to that which we owe to people to whom we have great obligations—is this thing so necessary that in spite of the urgent need not to increase expenditure, but to reduce it, we must yet incur a new burden?" One hon. Member said, very truly, that that was the real question we had to ask ourselves. An hon. Member came to me in the Lobby yesterday and said, "I have just taken a memorial to the Prime Minister signed by more than half the Members of this House"—I think he said I could have got it signed by the whole House—to increase the pensions of Civil servants who had retired and whose bargain with the State was completed. I have already refused that. Will the House support me over that? Their case is a hard one; they are suffering from the same causes and in the same way as every person with a small fixed income in this country. I received a deputation about it, and I told them that I could not reconcile it with my duty as Chancellor of the Exchequer to charge in their case upon the taxpayer at large a misfortune which was common to all who were similarly situated. Half the Members of the House of Commons signed that memorial! The Prime Minister will support me. Will the House of Commons support me? If so, ought half the Members of this House of Commons to have put their names to it without thinking what they were doing? The Government is fair game for the House of Commons, but allow me to say that sometimes the House of Commons must permit the Government to turn. As regards this great expenditure, I do not know whether the House realises the extraordinary difficulty under which we do our work at the present time. An hon. and gallant Member said that we were going away for a rest. If you could shut up all Government and give everybody in it from top to bottom six weeks' holiday and then give them six weeks for thought, their business would be better done. We have no holiday; we have wholly insufficient time for thought. We work under great pressure. I ought to be at a Cabinet meeting now. Some of my colleagues would have been on this Bench if they were not detained there. There is one four days a week normally.
  Lord R. CECIL: That is a disaster.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: So it is, but it is unavoidable at the present time under the pressure of these days. I ask the House to bear these things in mind when they judge how far we have failed to accomplish all that we should have done. Our minds are resolutely set on securing the economy and the reduction of expenditure that is obviously necessary. We have been at work upon this subject. We shall be continuously at work upon it. Some references were made to the Prime Minister. Let me say that no man feels it more strongly than the Prime Minister, and, whatever be his other qualities, he has it in him to make a strong force and to have him on your side is a great strength in matters of finance. Not only the Prime Minister, but the whole 'Government is seised with the seriousness of the position and is setting its mind equally seriously to work to find a remedy, which is essential.
  I turn now to the particular questions put to me by the hon. Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton). He asked me—they are not small matters which can be dealt with in one or two sentences—what was the Government policy in relation to subsidies, what was its policy in relation to currency notes, and what was its policy in relation to exchange. My policy in regard to subsidies is to bring them to an end wherever that can be done and as soon as it can be done. [Hon. Members: "When?"] Do hon. Members think that is capable of a precise and definite answer? Do they think that that question can be answered by my saying 1st November or 31st December or any single date? Each one of these must be considered on its merits. There are the railways. I should like to bring that subsidy to an end. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, Sir; but hon. Members must not press that railway fares should be reduced before the railway accounts balance. On the contrary, railway passenger fares must remain—
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Could not railway freights be raised?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am coming to railway freights. Passenger fares must be maintained until the railways are in a sound position; then we may consider reducing them. If at any time you can show that the rates charged are uneconomic, then I quite agree that we should have to raise them. Simply be-

  641
  cause somebody or everybody wants to pay less, my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Macquisten) asks whether freights ought not to be raised. Yes, they ought; and when the Ways and Communications Bill is passed there will be power to do it. It is a thing not to be done brutally or roughly or with the same case as raising the passenger fares. Those who know more than I do about the subject of railway rates have told me that a mere flat-rate increase on all rates is an impossible proposition and would have disastrous consequences. But do not let me be drawn more than need be into details. I want to bring the subsidy to the railways to an end as quickly as possible. You have got to do that by getting your railways into proper working order and adjusting their rates to the new values of services, commodities, and money. Then there is the bread subsidy. Would anybody say that it would be wise for the House to-morrow to stop the bread subsidy? [Hon. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] Not many, I think. I doubt whether the few who answered "Yes" would say so if they were charged with our responsibilities. Our policy is to bring these subsidies to an end as and when we can, and not to give new subsidies of a similar kind. As regards exchange, my hon. Friend asked me what I proposed to do to rectify the exchange.
  Sir J. WALTON: To assist the exchange.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There are only two ways of assisting the exchange and they must be worked together. The first is to reduce your imports by not ordering articles of luxury and articles which are unnecessary from abroad, and by confining your purchases to where the exchanges are adverse, and even elsewhere, because they all react, confining your purchases made abroad to the things which are really necessary and foregoing the things you can do without. The second thing is to increase your exports. That comes back again, at bottom, to increasing your production and to reducing the cost, so that you may get a ready entry into good markets. Bear in mind that it is a profoundly difficult problem at the present moment. There are very few countries in Europe which are in a position to pay for what they would normally take. They are urgently in need of all sorts of things. There is hardly a week passes that I am not asked to lend money to somebody in
  642
  order that he may buy our goods. The borrower intends to repay. I have no doubt he will be in a position to repay some day; but in the meantime that does not help my problem. It does not help me to rectify the exchange. The only way you can do that is by selling in the markets which can pay. That is the problem. During the War it was thought necessary—and if I may be permitted to offer an opinion I would say it was necessary—to peg certain of the exchanges—the most important one to us was the American exchange—that is to say, by artificial means we maintained the exchanges at a certain level, when, owing to natural causes, they would have fallen below the level. That is not a process with which you can go on for ever. It is very costly. The time came when I thought I had to withdraw the peg. I think my action commended itself to those competent to judge and to this House. I am quite sure it would be fatal to try to put the peg back. That would be retrograde, and the adverse exchange, rightly understood, is not a thing which you could deal with by any artificial measures even temporarily, as we did during the War under great pressure. You cannot do that permanently. It is a danger signal which shows that the traffic in and out is not working properly, that the traffic in is too heavy and the traffic out is too small. Above all that, the traffic out is too small. You could only rectify those exchanges by increased production and increased exports, and, unless we succeed in doing that quickly, everyone from the richest to the poorest is going to have a very bad time.
  Then my hon. Friend asked me about the currency issue. I have watched the currency issue with some care and attention. I regret to say that in the last week there has been a considerable increase, and I do not think a considerable increase of currency at this time ought to pass without any notice from me. My hon. Friend said we had only a reserve of £28,500,000 against currency notes. I have earmarked another £250,000 of Bank of England notes for currency reserve in consequence of the rise which has taken place this week. I think that is a step which will commend itself to my hon. Friend. There are certain features of the situation which I have steadily in view. One is the currency note issue, another is the Ways and Means advances—borrowing from the Bank of England. In anticipation of the Victory Loan we stopped the issue of Treasury

  643
  Bills in accordance with precedent. The immediate result was that we had large numbers of Treasury Bills falling due to pay off, and Ways and Means advances rose. They are down again. I am very anxious to keep them down. I am sure that is the wise and the sound course in national finance. I think the Treasury Bills will be a very large feature of our balances for a long time to come. I have not the least doubt that they can safely be so, and even that they can be so with the convenience of the traders and bankers of the country. But Ways and Means advances I think we must do our best to keep from rising again, and we must try another way to get the money which but for those advances we should have to take as an overdraft from the Bank of England. I have given the House the latest information I can on the financial situation. The Government are giving serious and anxious attention to the financial position which I have stated to the House. They are determined not merely that reckless waste shall be stopped wherever it occurs, but that rigorous economy shall be exercised. They have made up their minds that expenditure must come down, and they are devoting themselves to the measures which will bring that result about. One question I have left unanswered. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Lambert Ward) said there was prevalent the fear lest the Government, in view of the gravity of the financial situation, should resort to the course of nationalising everything in the hope that they could get a better revenue. That is the last course which would ever enter my mind. The hon. and gallant Gentleman need be under no apprehension that we shall rush into experimental and hazardous courses as a financial speculation in the hope that so we may get out of the difficulty. The gravity and difficulty of the situation is an argument against taking new liabilities of a doubtful and speculative kind, and the liabilities we have already, the onerous obligations which are assumed by Bills which this House has passed—the Housing Bill, the Land Settlement Bill, the Ways and Communications Bill—are surely enough to digest, and we must be content with them until they have been thoroughly digested.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question about unemployed benefit?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Unemployed benefit from the first has been refused to strikers, but it has been paid to people innocently out of work in consequence of a strike by others. There is nothing new about that.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: It is not sanctioned by Parliament.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is within the knowledge of Parliament that it has been the practice. The Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill is not the most convenient occasion to bring it to an issue.
  Mr. ATKEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman give particulars about the national obligation in respect to housing?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No one can give any practical statement of the cost involved to the country in the housing scheme. The policy is that the houses shall be let at the true, normal, economic rent. But we cannot tell at this moment what will be the capital cost corresponding to what you may consider the normal rent. You cannot ascertain the loss which will have to be borne by the State till the time comes when you settle what is the normal value of the houses. The expenditure year by year for many years to come is going to be very considerable. All the larger local authorities must borrow money for their houses. The State cannot assume that obligation for them. For the smaller local authorities without credit we have to lend, but all of them risk no more than a penny rate, and the rest of the loss falls upon the National Exchequer. What that may be I cannot say, but the normal charge for many years to come must be very serious.
  Mr. G. MURRAY: What will happen supposing the local authority is unable to borrow money, and the housing schemes will not go on? I know of such cases.
  7.0 P.M.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This really is not the moment to raise that question. If the hon. Member wants information in regard to those questions, he should address himself to the Minister of Health. For the local authority which is too small to have credit of its own we have to borrow, and that is a sufficiently serious undertaking to make me say we cannot borrow for the great municipal or county authorities who have credit of their own, and they must use their credit or their

  645
  housing will not be done. I have tried to put the situation fairly to the House as I see it now. It is worse than it was when I spoke on the Budget. It is worse temporarily and to some extent permanently, because if the deficit for the year is greater than I had anticipated, then the debt at the end of the year is greater, and we are left with that continuing into future years. But the circumstances which have made it worse are partly permanent in that we have found it necessary to incur such matters as pensions, the pay of the Army and Navy, the pay of the police, and the bonus to Civil servants, much of which expenditure at any rate will continue for a long time. But there is nothing in the situation which is beyond our power to deal with as a nation if we will tackle it as a nation, with the same resolution, the same public spirit, and the same unity as that with which we faced the difficulties of war. The difficulties of reconstruction are not less than the difficulties of war. If we had not been parties to the War, and had had no burden of our own to bear and no loss to make good, the condition of Europe outside the British Isles must have profoundly affected the whole trade of our country—the whole position. With a Europe which is desolated, where the means of industry and production have in many cases been destroyed, where capital is absent, raw materials are unobtainable and food insufficient—with a Europe like that you have the United Kingdom spared all this suffering but still faced with the prodigious upheaval that the War brought, with the prodigious burden that it leaves, and with the new problems that it has created. If we face this difficulty not as a united nation, not as citizens of a common country, but as sections and classes, eagerly seeking a selfish or a particular interest, we shall deserve our fate. If we face it as patriotic citizens, with courage and resolution, if everyone gets to work in his own sphere as hard and as quickly as he can, we shall save the situation.
  Sir DONALD MACLEAN: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has addressed the House at considerable length, and I am sure we all agree that not one single sentence of his speech was wasted, because, with his customary frankness, he laid before the House, and I hope the country, a very fair indication of the seriousness of our financial position. Before
  646
  I take up the subject with which I desire most particularly to deal, namely, the question of the administration of the Government in Ireland, I should like to say a word on two points with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has dealt. The first is his appeal to us for economy, and the declaration which he made that as far as the Government were concerned they were determined that no effort should be lacking on their part to embark on a drastic operation of what I hope I am not wrong in calling ruthless economy. My right hon. Friend will excuse me for saying that I have heard that speech before in this House. I know that he and his colleague the Financial Secretary for the Treasury have put forth considerable effort and hon. Members of this House—certainly those on this side, and my hon. Friends below the Gangway on the opposite side of the House and one or two others, if they will accept a tribute from me—have joined in the effort to enforce, as far as words can, the needs for ruthless economy. But what are the facts? Only two or three days ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that the daily expenditure of the country was still about four and a half millions. If there is really very much in what the Government say through their spokesmen, what are we to think of the introduction the other day of the Bill to increase the salaries of Ministers and Secretaries, which was only borne down after a very remarkable Debate, in which Members of all shades of political opinion joined in denouncing the proposal without reserve?
  What is the evidence of the serious intent of these fine phrases about economy and ruthless cutting down of expenditure? Up to now it has been absent. What is the cause? I think there must be many causes. I quite agree that the work of re-construction is even more difficult than destruction, but I entirely agree with what a large number of Members have said hero to-day, that one of the main causes is the lack of central-driving Parliamentary control. No one can doubt that until the large number of Government Departments operating outside the directing sphere of influence of this House, working through Orders in Council without any adequate representation in this House—until that is stopped no amount of fine speeches or Governmental declarations will stop the outflow of public money in this grossly

  647
  extravagant way. We hare received from the Government an undertaking that, when the autumn comes, there will be laid before this House the Army Estimates, the Navy Estimates, and the Air Force Estimates. There is an opportunity for the House of Commons itself.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Hear, hear!
  Sir D. MACLEAN: The Prime Minister cheers that. Will the House then come and back up any Government, any official, who goes out for economy? It is the opportunity of the House of Commons itself to do it, and it can beat any Ministry. There is no Prime Minister, however powerful he may be, who dare stand up against the House of Commons on a question of expenditure, if it is in earnest. If it is put up to please a body of constituents, or to serve some passing interest, the expert politicians know what it means, and, of course, they will treat it with the attention it deserves. But if it is a serious intention no Government can stand against it, and I do hope profoundly that this House will realise its responsibility. The country is looking to it to take itself seriously.
  There is a great deal of talk about direct action and all the rest of it. I am not a bit afraid of that if the House of Commons asserts itself. People talk about the House of Commons and the elections. I am not going into that now, but what I say outside the House when I address the electors is this: "It is no use your talking about the House of Commons. You elected it, and those of you who did not vote are just as blameworthy for the House of Commons which you reprobate as those who voted for it. Take the responsibility of your action." Let the House of Commons, if it wants to save itself, be worthy of itself, and I have no fear of what the future may bring. I would say one plain word to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It must be a courteous word, because our relations have always been of the most friendly nature. I heard with the greatest anxiety an answer which was given to me across the floor of the House by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. The Prime Minister, of course, is tired. We all know and sympathise with him in the great strain which he has undergone. But when the Autumn Session comes, will he come back to this House and resume the normal duties, in
  648
  so far as they can be exercised, of a Prime Minister and Member of the House of Commons?
  What is the real distinction between this House and written Constitutions such as that of the United States? It is in regard to the closeness of the connection between the Executive and the Legislature. I should mind the Prime Minister separating himself from the House, as he has in. the past, even if the results were very excellent. I should be prepared to accept something very much less good than that, as long as we kept along the line of our own constitutional development. Disaster must await us if we go back from the slow growth and development and the experience of centuries. We must have one thing or the other—our own Constitution or a written Constitution; and I urge very strongly upon the Prime Minister, in his presence here and now, that if he seeks—with the best of motives, I am quite certain—to separate himself from a close and intimate connection with the House of Commons in the vast and varied duties which lie before it, he is striking a blow at the authority of Parliament. I am sure he does not wish to do that. That matter, I think, is one for very serious consideration. Serious movements are going across the face of the world to-day. We cannot escape them, and I say here and now that nothing stands between this country and a form of revolution but the moral authority of this House as representative of the people. No blame is to be attached to us if we fulfil to the extent that we can our Parliamentary duties, whether on the Front Opposition Bench, the Government Bench, or below or above the Gangway.
  I pass from that to say a word or two about the question of Ireland. I shall make my comments as brief as I can. What was the position with regard to Ireland in 1914, when the War broke out? We realised what magnificent possibilities there were, and there are few of us here who will recall without feelings of emotion that day when two men—John Redmond and Willie Redmond—joined with us in an agreed acclaim of national unity on that great question. In 1916 there came the terrible rebellion in Dublin, and from that time on there has been an ever-growing development of martial law as distinguished from the administration of the civil law. I was one of the Committee which examined hundreds of those Sinn Feiners who became interned in this country, and the evidence which was put before

  649
  us disclosed a state of affairs which shocked every one of the Committee. Horror and anger filled us as we heard the uncensored record of the way in which British soldiers were being shot down in the streets of Dublin. I shall never forget the experience we had to go through in hearing that. But one was struck with another thing. I saw personally hundreds of these people, and the impression was extraordinary that one got of these peasants from the far-off districts of Ireland. There was a light in their eyes which is only seen in men or animals which do not know much about artificial light. There they were; and to say that these men of that type are the hooligan ruffians usually associated with the name "Sinn Fein" is simply silly. We had poets, and literary people, and these simple peasants, caught up by this extraordinary movement. There it is. We have to face the fact. There is the fact. It has been faced from time to time by men of all shades of opinion in Ireland, but all the while there has been this steady growth of the military power in Ireland and a steady declension of ordinary law in Ireland. On the 3rd April of this year I made some remarks on the Irish Vote in Supply, and I quoted a letter from a friend of mine, known to many Members of this House, who had served very gallantly at the front and had returned to Ireland. He wrote:
  "Returning to the country after four and a half years, I am really appalled by the scandal it presents of people governed by naked force; essentially the same system as in Belgium and in Germany; armed police, soldiers, machines, tanks, gas, etc.—all the hideous paraphernalia of war. The whole of it apparently to repress a people who are determined in some way or another to attain their liberty."
  There was then in Ireland, I suppose, something like 30,000 troops. What is the number to-day? [An Hon. Member: "Sixty thousand!"] I will say 50,000. According to the statement made to us the other day, there were no less than £900,000 a month being spent for purely military purposes in Ireland. That means very nearly, within £200,000, of £11,000,000 a year, or within £2,000,000 of the total net revenue raised in Ireland before the War. That is the position. Reference was made in the Debate the other day to a threat of direct action by my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson). In that discussion the Law Officers of the Crown gave their opinion quite honestly that that speech constituted no breach of the law. Very shortly afterwards the
  650
  Lord Justice of Ireland, Lord Justice O'Connor, in one of his charges laid down a law which seemed to me to be very inconsistent with the declaration that has been made here. Whatever the legal aspect may be, here is the fact that that speech could be made by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn in the North of Ireland, and that he could be immune, while, on the other hand we know that young people, boys and girls, for they are little more than that, have been arrested for singing, "The Wearing of the Green," or something of that sort in the South of Ireland. That is the trouble. The ordinary people, as we call them, have a fine fund of blunt common sense, and they see that these two things do not square, whatever the legal position may be, and this condition of things has aroused, and will arouse, feelings and more than feelings—it conduces to acts of violence which we all reprobate.
  Again, there is censorship in Ireland. I have no knowledge except what I see in. the newspapers. Very few people here really know what is going on in Ireland, because there is a rigid censorship as to what is going on there. What is the policy of the Government? We have an Act on the Statute Book.
  The PRIME MINISTER: On a point of Order. I should like to know the: limits within which this Debate can be conducted. My right hon. Friend has been criticising the administration in Ireland, and referring to the administrative difficulties in Ireland. That, I understand, from my knowledge of this House, is within the limits of order on the Consolidated Fund Bill, but I have always understood that it was quite impossible on the Consolidated Fund Bill to discuss a question of policy which would involve legislation. I only want to get your ruling, Mr. Speaker, because if my right hon. Friend takes up this line of discussion, I should have to follow him, and then we might find ourselves discussing questions of legislation quite outside the purview of the particular Bill which we are engaged in at the present moment.
  Sir D. MACLEAN: On that point of Order I should like to make a statement. I am quite aware, after some years' experience, of the point which my right hon. Friend has very fairly and very properly taken. My point is this—I have detailed some matters of administration, but I have not yet suggested a word about

  651
  legislation. I have referred to the Act which is on the Statute Book, and I was going to ask my right hon. Friend, not to give the details—I was going carefully to avoid that, because if you are going to improve that Act or affect it in any way it must be by legislation—but to answer a question, and it is this: What is the policy of the Government with regard to the administration in Ireland with that Act on the Statute Book? If he cannot declare the policy now, as administering Ireland, will he take the opportunity of the Recess which is now coming and give us a definite promise to make a statement with regard to the Government's policy in Ireland when the House meets again? That is as far as I was going to go. I realise fully the limits of the Debate.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think that would be unexceptionable. Of course, the moment the right hon. Gentleman proposes to go into details and to say, "If I were in your position I would do this or that," that would probably lead to some legislative proposals, and it would be beyond the limits of the present discussion. The right hon. Gentleman is quite in order in asking what the Government are going to do administratively to meet the present situation which he has just described, and whether the Government propose to bring the Home Rule Act into operation. The right hon. Gentleman is quite entitled to ask that. He would also be entitled to ask, "Supposing the Government do not intend to do that, are they prepared in the autumn to deal with the matter by some other means?" without specifying the particular means. But the moment you get into details, then you get beyond the scope of the Consolidated Fund Bill Debate.
  Sir D. MACLEAN: I have had the privilege of sitting at your feet for some years, Mr. Speaker, and I will do myself the credit of observing those limits of order which you have indicated. I have referred to the fact that there is an Act on the Statute Book, and I now come to my closing point. This position cannot go on. That is agreed. It is something to have common agreement. It cannot go on. If it were only for ourselves it would be fatal to go on; but the Irish question has become a world question. It is, in the first place, our question. I do not say that I altogether resent it, but I do feel very much that it is not for us to be dictated
  652
  to in our own concerns by anybody, however much I may sympathise with them. I hold that view very strongly. It is our responsibility, but after that cautionary word I say that we cannot allow this condition of things to go on for our own position at home. The reaction on England, Scotland, and Wales is evident every day. The whole appeal is for the preservation of law and order, while forty miles across the sea you have a population which has in many ways borne a great part in the world's affairs—in art, in literature, in arms, in every branch of social life Ireland has been great, and sometimes pre-eminent, and yet she is held down to-day by a force of 50,000 soldiers, which cost this country nearly £1,000,000 a month. If we cannot do something to alleviate this we are bankrupt in statesmanship. Hitherto, whatever the difficulties have been, this country has always shown the way out of political difficulties which have conquered many other countries. The inherent political instinct of the British race is unequalled in the world. We saw what we could do in South Africa. We faced and solved many things there. The Prime Minister was a member of the Cabinet at that time, and he knows what those difficulties were. There is a lesson for us there from which we might draw comfort and strength and guidance. We know the old tale of the Sphinx and its riddle. There it is to-day. Ireland is still spelling out its riddle to us. Everywhere we have succeeded where we have tried, but in Ireland we always fail. It must not go on, and I urge the Prime Minister, with all the powers of which I am capable, in the interests not only of this country but of our world-wide Empire, to make up his mind as to his policy. Have a policy, whether it is going to fulfil all you want or not, and carry it out with all its risks, and I am certain we shall come through.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I was very anxious to hear what my right hon. Friend said upon the two or three very important topics which he has raised in his most interesting speech. I think I will deal with the last topic first. I also have had some experience of this House. I have not had his peculiar experience in administering the Rules of Order, but I have had some experience in breaking them. By that means you acquire a very accurate knowledge of what they really mean. Many a time have I tried to circumnavi-

  653
  gate the Rules of the Chair on the Consolidated Fund Bill. I have tried to raise all sorts of topics which involved questions of legislation, but Mr. Speaker and his predecessors and those who were in the Chair have always managed rigidly to exclude me from trespassing upon a discussion of questions of policy involving legislation. And I do not mind saying that I do not regret that at the present moment. I will tell my reasons straight away. It is not that I want to avoid discussing Ireland; I am quite prepared to do that. I did not raise a mere technical objection—to use legal language-to avoid an unpleasant Debate, but I do not think that a discussion of Irish policy at this particular moment would conduce to a favourable settlement.
  My right hon. Friend's question is one which I answer straight away. I am sure he realises that, taking into account that recently my attention has been concentrated for six months on other problems, I could not possibly have devoted my time to a consideration of the half a dozen questions of cardinal, fundamental importance which await decision. I have my views upon Irish policy, but I realise that there are difficulties and fresh difficulties which may induce the Government to modify or alter any particular views they might have. I will consider that. But I find that when there is a discussion with regard to Ireland, unless you are not merely prepared instantly to table a policy and unless that policy is acceptable in every detail, it leads to recrimination and heat which are not conducive to a favourable consideration of the problem when you come to it. That is why I want to avoid all that at the present moment.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend—it is perfectly obvious—that the state of Ireland is not satisfactory. It is not a credit to this country that, after hundreds of years of British rule in Ireland, we should not have succeeded in reconciling Ireland to the partnership, and it is the business of statesmanship to bring that condition of things to an end. The rule of force cannot be the last word, and I at once say to my right hon. Friend that it is the business of the Government to propound their policy, after careful consideration of the circumstances as they appear at the present moment, and submit to the House of Commons at the earliest opportunity their scheme for dealing with the government of Ireland. That, I agree. The mere fact
  654
  that there in an Act on the Statute Book and that that Act will come into operation—I think automatically; that is my recollection—six months after the conclusion of Peace renders it incumbent upon the House of Commons to face that problem. Therefore, I have no hesitation in telling my right hon. Friend that the Government will certainly submit their proposals to Parliament at the earliest possible opportunity. No one can imagine that it could be done in the course of the week or fortnight which the House has at its disposal before it adjourns for the Autumn Vacation. Anxious not to travel outside the limits of order, I will only add one or two observations. Somebody has said that "when everybody agrees that something should be done something foolish is done," and that is one of the troubles about Ireland. Everybody says you have to deal, you must deal, you must take any risks in dealing with it—something must be done there. I have taken the trouble to ask if you would mind telling me what you would do. I do not get a ready response.
  Sir D. MACLEAN: You are not asking me.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot ask my right hon. Friend now. If I did, Mr. Speaker would rule me out of order. I should be very glad if he would communicate to mo if he has any plan or any proposal. I can assure him that I will consider it, not merely from the importance of the proposals, but from my respect for my right hon. Friend. It certainly would be, and it has been, very interesting to watch what has happened during the last few weeks. There is a great journal which is not particularly friendly to me—I am not sure that I have been particularly friendly to it—which has joined the ranks of those who say that "something must be done." But it did not confine itself merely to that statement. It began to say exactly what should be done; it proposed a great scheme, and I watched the result. It is a scheme which every party in Ireland has joined in condemning. That is the experience of everybody. It is very easy to say "You must do something; you must do it at once; there should not be any delay in putting forward your proposals. Why do you not do it?" But the moment you do it, you find that the experience which this great journal has had during the last few days is the experience of everybody who comes for-

  655
  ward to propose any scheme. Then comes the other suggestion—and I am not at all contesting it—that it is for the Government to say, "As you cannot propose anything that Ireland accepts, because if one party accepts the other will not accept, and there will be trouble, we will put forward a scheme, and carry it through," simply saying, "This is the best we can do. This is what we think is right, and we will do that, and accept the responsibility." I agree that that is the only thing to do. That is the only way to deal with it, and the House of Commons may depend upon it that the Government do not propose to shirk their responsibility in that respect. That is as far as I can go within the limits of order, and I do not mind saying that it is as far as it is desirable to go at the present moment.
  Mr. GRIFFITHS: Is it possible to withdraw the forces from Ireland?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think that my hon. friend will find that Irishmen themselves would be the first to protest against that. I have never seen any attempt to withdraw forces from Ireland that Irishmen themselves did not regret as much as anybody else. You must accept the responsibility for law and order. Until you set up an authority that has responsibility itself, order must be maintained there. Otherwise there will be anarchy and confusion. The responsibility for order is now the responsibility of the British Government. As long as it is our responsibility, we must use every means at our disposal to see that order is established there.
  I come now to the second question raised by my right hon. Friend. It was a personal question, and therefore I will deal with it at once. My right hon. Friend referred to the question of my resuming the normal attendances of a Prime Minister in the House of Commons. Let me at once tell the House what are the difficulties. The conditions are not normal. My predecessor found it increasingly difficult to attend the House of Commons. The task of administration is an overpowering one. I will come to the kind of question to which constantly I have to devote my mind, which I could not do if I were sitting constantly in the House of Commons. Even the ordinary work of administration is an enormous one for a Minister who is at the head of the Government. I think that my right hon. Friend will find that Mr.
  656
  Asquith had that experience even before the War. It has become increasingly difficult for the Prime Minister also to discharge the functions of Leader of the House. In the old days the Prime Minister was Leader of the House, and sat in the House practically the whole time. That was not the case when I came into the House, because Lord Salisbury was in the House of Lords, but that was true of Disraeli, and I think that it was true of Mr. Gladstone. And in those days, as my right hon. Friend reminded me, Mr. Gladstone was Chancellor of the Exchequer as well as Prime Minister. But the functions of administration have increased enormously. The work of government has increased enormously, and I do not care who is the Prime Minister, whatever his physical resources, he could not possibly lead the House in the sense in which the House was led by the Prime Ministers of a generation ago, and also attend to his work as the head of the Administration. It was always said that the 1868 Government was the only Government which Mr. Gladstone really controlled. I am not sure whether that is in Lord Morley's life or not, but that is accepted by those who had experience of both Administrations. In 1880 he really ceased to control the administration of the various Departments. I do not know whether that was altogether due to the difference in age. He was a very much older man then, but there is no doubt that the work of administration had increased enormously between 1868 and 1880.
  But the extent to which the work of government has increased since 1880 is almost incalculable, and I do not believe even in normal conditions—and we are far from being in normal conditions now—that it would be possible for a Prime Minister to exercise the kind of supervision which a Prime Minister ought to exercise over the work of government, and at the same time sit in the House of Commons and lead it. I do not think that it would be desirable for the House to ask him. It would be a mistake from the point of view of good government to do so. I should be prepared to discuss this matter if it were necessary, but I am putting it now on the ground of the fact that conditions are very far from normal. Let my right hon. Friend think of the questions that await decision at the present moment. I am not referring to the hundred and one comparatively small questions of administration—not small in themselves, but simply small in

  657
  comparison with these gigantic questions that await decision. When I came back from France this was the kind of question that confronted me. Take finance. There is nothing more vital to the prosperity and the life of the community. That is the first thing. It is essential that expenditure in every Department should be cut down, and cut down ruthlessly. I use that word within the limits of security and efficiency.
  There is the question of the Coal Mines. Here was a Report of a great Commission—[a laugh]—of a Commission with one of the ablest judges at the head of it. I am expressing no opinion upon the Report, but at any rate the Commission was appointed by the House of Commons under an Act of Parliament. At the head of it was one of the most distinguished lawyers in the Kingdom, and he is entitled, whatever anyone's view is about it, to have received with respect any opinion he may express. As far as I am concerned I shall certainly approach the consideration of that Report with the respect I feel for the head of the Commission. Enormous issues are raised—great issues of principle—which I agree no Commission can decide. The responsibility, in the first instance, must be the responsibility of the Government, and, of course, the ultimate responsibility must be the responsibility of the Legislature. It will be the responsibility of the Government to consider that Report, and upon their responsibility, which they cannot pass to any Commission, they must make such recommendations to the House of Commons as they feel right and proper in the circumstances. Just think of the enormous importance of the issues raised! They are gigantic. Whatever the decision, the effects may be momentous upon the industrial world and upon the commerce and trade of this country. That is one of the questions which requires most careful consideration. The House must know that the Government have been devoting a great deal of time and attention to the consideration of this subject. I certainly have devoted a great deal of time to its consideration, and I have, even within the last two or three days, had to discuss it at considerable length with very great care and minuteness, and I hope to be able to make a statement to the House before it rises on that very important matter.
  Another matter to which the Government have given most careful consideration is
  658
  what is known as Profiteering. There we are confronted with a condition of things that created great irritation and exasperation throughout the country, and which was undoubtedly conducing to the industrial unrest—aggravating it, inflaming it. Therefore, the Government have considered what steps to take in order to deal with that very important problem. It is not a normal problem—it is a problem which has arisen in consequence of the circumstances of the War, and the circumstances which have followed the War.
  The fourth great problem is the problem of Trade Policy. The traders of this country are awaiting a declaration by the Government as to their views with regard to the trade policy of the country. They say it is essential, from the point of view of business, to know what action the Government propose to take, or whether they will take any action at all—what their view is with regard to the future of trade in Great Britain and in the British Empire. That is a matter of most enormous importance, and full of the greatest complications. There are questions concerning agriculture. I saw a deputation the other day, a very influential deputation of Members of this House, asking for an agricultural policy. I found I was denounced very severely because I was not able, within about three weeks after I had returned from France, to declare a policy upon all these great questions. Of course that is folly. These things require careful consideration, but they are all urgent, they are all important. The prosperity of this country depends upon the right decision being taken in respect to them.
  Then there is the question referred to by my right hon. Friend—the question of Ireland, not a very easy question, or one which you can decide in a hurry. It is one of the most difficult questions you can possibly raise. It has baffled all statesmen who have attempted it up to the present moment. There is no Minister, Prime Minister or Irish Minister, who has ever undertaken that task, and has up to the present found a solution which is satisfactory either to Ireland or to Great Britain. These are some of the problems that are awaiting decision, and I say it would be quite impossible for any Prime Minister, if he had fifty times my physical resources, at the same time to give close study to these questions with a view of assisting the Government in coming to

  659
  the right conclusion, so as to submit plans and schemes and proposals to Parliament, and at the same time to sit in the House of Commons, and take part in Debates from day to day. It would be absolutely impossible; it would be a mistake for Parliament to demand it. In the present case, very fortunately, it is not necessary, because I am perfectly certain that there has never been in my experience a more popular and more efficient Leader of the House, and one who commands such general confidence, as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) who leads the House with such very great distinction. It would be quite enough if there were only these great questions, but when you are sitting down to consider them and consulting experts, reading all the reports on the subject, sending for everybody who can give you any assistance or cast any light upon the problems, suddenly there is the eruption of some great labour dispute. Almost, I think, the first week I came back from France, the first few days of my time were taken up with the settlement of the great miners' dispute.
  You are dealing with circumstances such as have not arisen in this country before. I shall have something to say about that, I hope, next week or the week after, because I would like to review the whole position to the House as it presents itself to my mind, after consulting all those who can assist me in coming to a conclusion. I want to present to the House of Commons and the country what I conceive to be the picture of the present position, and the line we ought to take in dealing with it. I hope to be able to do that, with the indulgence of the House, before we rise. I think it is very important that the country should be made aware of the view of the Government upon the whole of the position. I want only to indicate that the situation is abnormal. It is a serious position; in many respects it is a grave one. It is so grave a position that I do not think we can recover—that we can reestablish things—unless the nation act together, and not merely the Government and Members of the House of Commons, but everybody, realises the responsibility. There is a spirit of irresponsibility abroad. There is a lack of appreciation of the perils. It has a good deal to do with the reaction which follows the strain of a great war. The nation, to recover, must pull itself together as a whole.
  660
  Otherwise, I say without hesitation, the position is a grave one. It is certainly not beyond the compass of our resources. On the contrary, all we need is that everybody throughout the land should put forth his best exertion, as he did during the War, and we shall emerge triumphant. But I do want to review the position, and to put the country, in so far as I can, face to face with its responsibilities.
  My right hon. Friend dealt with the question of Finance. The first responsibility there is the responsibility of the Government. If the Government fail to realise its responsibility, and to act upon it, I agree that it is the business of the House of Commons to take the matter in hand. The old function of Parliament is to control Supply—it is the basis of our liberty—and to set that we get redress for grievances before Supply is voted. The House of Commons has to look at the matter, not merely from the point of view of cutting down, but from the point of view of not piling on. I have been Chancellor of the Exchequer for seven or eight years. I have heard far more debates in the House of Commons and had far greater pressure from the House of Commons to increase expenditure than to cut it down. I have heard general discussions in the House in which Members said, "How extravagant you are! Look at your Budget; it is £180,000,000! Look at your Super-tax; it is 6d. !" I have heard general debates of that kind, and the language was vivid—vivid but vague. But whenever the House of Commons particularised they said, "Why do not you increase the money you spend for that? You are not-spending enough on agriculture, or on pensions. Look at the miserable pittance you have given for them!" The Debates in Committee of Supply were invariably debates not to cut down expenditure, but to increase it. There was not a debate I over heard in Committee of Supply when if you totalled the suggestions made, they would not almost have doubled the particular Estimate you were discussing.
  8.0 P.M.
  It is no use talking about the responsibility of the Government. It is the responsibility of the House of Commons! My right hon. Friend told the House of Commons a story of an hon. Friend of mine who came to me late last night. This is the way the House of Commons encourages me to cut down expenditure. My right hon. Friend says I am not in the House very often. When I came in last night there was a petition signed by 380

  661
  Members of the House of Commons asking me to increase the annual expenditure by £4,800,000 for some proposal or other I had never hoard of before ! I have no doubt it is a good proposal. All these proposals are good. If you take each one on its merits, they are all admirable. But you have to consider what the nation can bear, and choose between them, and say, "This, I think, we must have; that we must have; but this we really cannot afford just yet." Every business is run in that way. Take a very great business. The men who are at the head of each branch always have suggestions how they can improve it—building a little more here, having a bigger staff there, opening out there—and the business of those who are sitting and controlling is to say, "This we cannot do," and "We will try this other thing this year." The House spoke frankly to us, and they will not mind the Government speaking quite frankly to them. The House has the responsibility not merely of vague criticism and talking about extravagance, but also of supporting the Government when they resist particular appeals for expenditure.
  I am not criticising in the least what has been done about pensions, but still it is a very considerable burden on the shoulders of the country. There are certain forms of expenditure which it is very difficult for Members of Parliament to resist, because there are so many people who are interested in them. The House of Commons must also have the moral courage to face circumstances of that kind. When you have a section of a constituency, it may be 100 or 500 or a 1,000 or 10,000, all interested in a particular form of expenditure, it is very difficult to resist an appeal for an increase in those directions. It is only by co-operation between Parliament and the Government that you can resist, and I believe that the common sense of the community would support us both. I agree that it is the business of the Government to see that the gigantic expenditure which we have unfortunately had to incur in order to save the national life, should be cut down at the first possible moment. A good deal of it could not be cut down the moment the guns ceased to sound, because we had to keep great Armies there until we knew whether Germany would accept our terms or not. That had to be done; but now peace is being re-established not merely with Germany, but I hope soon with other countries as well, I
  662
  trust the House of Commons and the Government will act together to see that expenditure is cut down to the narrowest possible limits, in order that there should be not merely complete economy, but also complete efficiency throughout the country in its administration.
  Major HILLS: The Prime Minister has made a speech of deep interest which touched on so many topics of the greatest weight that I feel tempted to follow him at length, but I only intend to deal with one subject. First of all, let me say I recognise that the time has now probably come when the office of Prime Minister has got to be divorced from that of Leader of the House of Commons. I think the work of both is too much for one man. I am also entirely in accord with him that the whole remedy for extravagance now rests with the House of Commons. The real fact is that now the Treasury stands out single-handed against the spending Departments and against the greatest spending Department of all, which is the House of Commons. I did not, however, rise to talk about that. I want to bring the Debate back to the question of Ireland. I can assure the Prime Minister I shall observe to the full the two conditions which he laid down at the beginning of his speech. I recognise to the full that for many months past he has not been able to give more than a small part of his great abilities to the Irish question. In anything that I mean to say I shall indulge in no recrimination at all. The Prime Minister told us that the present position of Ireland was unsatisfactory, and that the rule of force could not continue indefinitely; and he went on to say that there was a general demand that something should be done, and he said very truly that when there is a general demand for something to be done often something foolish is done. That is quite true; but I would point this out: Is not the present position, which remains if you do nothing, more foolish than any action you could take? I do not believe that anything could be worse than the present position in Ireland. The Prime Minister went on to mention the scheme that the "Times" newspaper has brought forward, and said that that scheme had been attacked and had got no friends, and, he added, if we are to do anything, please say what we are to do.
  Anybody who brings forward any sort of scheme for the solution of the Irish ques-

  663
  tion is fired at from all directions. He is fired at by the people who do not want a settlement, and they exist on both sides, and he is also fired at by people who do not want that particular settlement. In a controversy like this, which has a long history, opinion has become hardened and stereotyped, and people are slow to change their minds and often think that their own solution is the only one possible, so that whatever scheme you bring forward finds many attackers and few defenders. The only deduction from that is this: A question of this sort can only be settled in one of two manners. Either you do, as the Prime Minister did a couple of years ago, and set up a Convention of Irishmen of all parties to settle this question, or the Government themselves choose the best solution and impose that settlement on Ireland. The Government, very wisely in my judgment, and with the very bust results I believe for Ireland in the end, chose the form of a National Convention which did not fulfil all the hopes of its sponsors. It did not arrive at a decision which resulted in legislation, but it was essential that it should be tried, and it did very great work, I believe, in clarifying the position. As that has not provided a solution, I put this to the Prime Minister: Has not the time come for the Government to impose their solution? It is not a case of intelligent gentlemen or wise committees establishing the beet solution possible. What you want is action. The scheme that the "Times" put forward may be a good scheme or a bad scheme, but it might have been the best scheme in the world and yet it would have been attacked in just the same way. Whatever scheme you put forward is bound to be attacked, and the only possible solution is for the Government as a Government to impose their solution of the question. Therefore, I do not propose, even if it were within the Rules of Order, to go into the alternative schemes for the settlement of this great question. I will merely say that, now that we have peace, and the certainty that within a few months, and it may be as near as next February, the Home Rule Act of 1914 coming into operation, and which nobody wants, and which would be entirely unsuitable to present conditions, and when we look at the fact that we are ruling Ireland by martial law, and are employing troops which we shall find it hard to provide when the Army is reduced to its peace establishment, and besides holding down a country by martial law at a time when
  664
  we talk of abolishing militarism in the whole world, and when, lastly, we look at the position and the obligations that we have undertaken through signing the Covenant of the League of Nations, and agreeing to the principles of self-determination, I do think the time for a settlement is ripe indeed. Taunts or threats as to foreign nations, I think, do infinite harm to the settlement of the Irish question, and the mere fact that the threats are made make it difficult to do what you might do without difficulty if the threat was not made. I am appealing to our own sense of right, and to the lead which we have got to give to the world if the League of Nations is going to be a real force. I believe that unless the League of Nations is a real living force in the world we shall go back to the state of war which we have seen during the last century. I do not believe there are two ways to it. But the League of Nations is now merely certain articles printed in a book. It is nothing without the spirit that works it, and the great part of working it must fall on this country. How can we hold ourselves outs to the world as the exponent of the League of Nations and of the principle of self-determination unless we apply that principle to Ireland? I have said that before.
  I believe and I hope that the Prime Minister, after the great work that he has done, will bring his great abilities to the settlement of this question, which is surely the most urgent. We have seen what the Prime Minister has done in Europe. We all feel the greatest admiration for the way he has upheld the principle of freedom and self-determination in Europe. We also recognise the skill with which he met the practical difficulties. There was the settlement of Poland, and of Serbia, and of the other difficult national questions, and we express our gratitude and deep admiration at the work of the Prime Minister in those matters. In all those questions he has got what he wanted done. Can he not do the same thing for Ireland? I believe he can. I believe that now that the great burden of the peace of Europe is off his shoulders that he will turn his mind to this question. Let the House be under no misapprehension. Unless he does, we are left in this position, that we have carried freedom all through the world except in our own home, and we shall be the only white race holding down another white race by the sword. I am not in the least anxious to step into the shoes of the Austrian Empire. Does

  665
  the House not clearly recognise that we are in very real danger of being in that position? The Prime Minister told us that the Government will produce their scheme. I only say two things about that. I hope that they will produce their scheme quickly, and I hope that when it is produced that it will be put through and passed into law in the speediest way possible, for only by a wise solution imposed by the Government and passed with all possible speed lies, in my judgment, a settlement of this old and long-standing controversy.
  Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: Before passing on to deal with the question of Ireland, I wish to say one word regarding a statement made by the Prime Minister. Referring to his absence from this House, the Prime Minister gave reasons why at the present moment it is impossible for him to come to the House daily and take part in its proceedings. We shall all, I think, be prepared to admit that there are special reasons at present why it is not possible for the Prime Minister to come down here every day and take part in these proceedings, but I do suggest to the Prime Minister that the statement he made to-day is one of very grave moment, and points to a very far-reaching constitutional change. The Prime Minister said, to all intents and purposes, that never again in the future of this country would it be possible for the Prime Minister to take part in the daily proceedings of this House, and that that duty would be devolved upon a Leader of the House appointed for the time being. I suggest to the Prime Minister that it will be quite impossible for him adequately to administer the country if he is out of touch, as he would be under those conditions, with the House of Commons. I think it is the duty of the House of Commons to watch very carefully indeed any such departure from its usages as has been suggested in the Prime Minister's speech this evening. There is a tendency now on the part of the Cabinet for no Cabinet Minister to take decisions on his own. If he is in a difficulty he runs to the Prime Minister, and if the Prime Minister is in a difficulty he sets up a Royal Commission, and it is upon the Report of that Royal Commission that the Government settles its policy, and so far as I can see the tendency is to adopt in toto the policy of the Royal Commission. I hope the House will forgive me for saying those few words, but I think they are of importance
  666
  and that this House should watch very carefully the departure that has been proposed by the Prime Minister to-night.
  The Prime Minister, in his speech, dealt with Ireland, and he referred to the difficulties of framing a scheme which would put an end to the present system of military government that obtains in that country. I am not going to traverse the ground that has already been covered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean). I am fully aware of the difficulties of the Prime Minister in regard to this settlement, but my criticism of the Government in the matter is this. It is quite true to say that the Prime Minister has been engaged during the past six months in Paris, and we are all fully cognisant of the great work that he has done for his country and for the world during the Peace Conference, but the Cabinet in this country during the time that the Prime Minister was in Paris ought to have been giving its consideration to this problem, which is one of the most urgent with which the country has to deal. I agree entirely with the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who has just spoken that this is a problem which, so far as the method on which it is to be settled is concerned, is one for this country, and for this country alone, but we cannot overlook the fact that it is a world problem, an international problem, in that it is endangering our relations—I do not think that it is too strong a term to use if the settlement is longer delayed—with the overseas Dominions, and it is embittering our relations with the United States of America. The Irish sections of the American population in this connection tell us what we ought to do. I agree that we do not desire to be dictated to by the Irish sections of the American population, but I think we ought to take into consideration the fact that this is necessarily a question which concerns America in that a very large portion of her population are Irish-born and that, just as one member of a family takes an interest in and criticises another member of a family, so these Irish-Americans who come from Irish stock take an interest in and criticise the methods for the settlement of the Irish question in this country. When the Prime Minister referred to the scheme which has been adumbrated by the "Times," he suggested—and the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Hills) suggested the same thing—that it had no friends. I hold no brief—
  Major HILLS: May I explain that I meant to say that any scheme, however good, was bound to be attacked? I think the scheme has one friend, at any rate.
  Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: If I misrepresented what the hon. and gallant Gentle man said, I unreservedly withdraw, but he very truly said that any scheme is, of course, attacked from very many quarters. I hold no brief whatsoever for the scheme produced by the "Times," but it does seem to me to be one of the most practicable schemes that has been produced. It has in many quarters in Ireland received very favourable comment, it has been favourably commented on in the Dominions and in the United States, and I suggest to the Government that, if they would take that scheme as a basis for their considerations on this matter, they might do very much worse. In any case, upon whatever basis they found their considerations, it is quite obviously their duty, their first obligation, to take the whole responsibility of framing a scheme, of producing it in this House, and of passing it through Parliament at the earliest possible moment. The Prime Minister to-day said that that was the intention of the Government. I welcome that assertion on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, but when I say that I cannot refrain from carrying my mind back to the month of May, I think it was, 1918, when the Prime Minister, standing at that box, said in very similar terms that it was the first duty of the Government to frame a Home Rule scheme for Ireland and to use all the resources at its disposal to pass it through Parliament and place it on the Statute Book of this country. In saying that, I do not think I am unfair to the Prime Minister. I am within the recollection of the House in the quotation.
  I will conclude by saying that I feel perfectly sure, in his heart of hearts, no one more than the Prime Minister deplores the present situation in Ireland. You have only to look at the Order Paper to-day to see the questions that have been put in this House by an hon. Member (Mr. MacVeagh), in which attention is drawn to a police constable fired at, to a gentleman who was shot dead, to a commercial traveller who was shot dead, find to a gentleman whose motor-cycle was seized—why? Because, as the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland told us at Question Time, it was
  668
  suspected that that gentleman was going to use his motor-cycle for illegal purposes. All I can say in that respect is, that if I were to place, side by side, the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson) at Belfast on the l2th July and the case of this gentleman whose motor-cycle was seized, I would ask which purpose was the more illegal, the speech of the right hon. Member for Duncairn or the supposed illegal purpose to which this motor-cycle was going to be put? I do hope the Prime Minister was sincere in the statement he made this afternoon. The present system of administration in Ireland cannot be continued. The time when it should be brought to an end is too long overdue. The root point of the whole, problem is this: It is not discontent which has produced coercion in Ireland, but it is coercion which has produced discontent, and until Ministers on the Front Bench grasp that fact they will never be able to settle the Irish problem. I hope, therefore, after the Prime Minister's speech to-day, there will not be a repetition of the circumstances of the year 1918, but that the Government will make up their minds to produce a scheme which reasonable men in this country, the Dominions, and the United States of America will accept, and use all the forces at their disposal in this House to pass it through Parliament and place it on the Statute Book.
  Mr. WATERSON: I listened very attentively to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when, in his admirable way, he endeavoured to lead us from the path of extravagance into the path of economy, which this House has not yet trodden, at any rate. I want to draw the attention of the House away from Ireland for the moment to one or two of the home problems which are now confronting us. The Chancellor of the Exchequer believes, as do many Members of the House, that if, in the future, this nation is to prosper, it can prosper only on account of its trade. I believe there are certain restrictions now placed upon trade in this country which are hampering the prosperity of many of our business concerns. At the beginning of the War, when men were being called to the Colours, it was the duty of the Government to safeguard, to a large degree, the businesses of those men whilst they were serving their country. Every man who looked at it from a national point of view agreed that that was a right policy, but I venture to say the time has now

  669
  come when those restrictions should be removed. If we are to prosper, we must not have trade hampered as it is to-day. I do not want to develop into a line of argument which will lead us on to the question as to whether Free Trade is the best policy or whether we should have a preferential tariff system, or anything of that kind, but I want to deal with the question of trade as it affects us in our own localities and within the shores of our own Island. Many men in this country are afraid to launch out on an enterprise, and to develop trade, not merely because of the shortage of labour, but because of the restrictions that are now held so tightly, under the guidance of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I could give a specific case. It is that of a society in which I have been particularly interested, who have been endeavouring for a long period to launch out and to employ men, and to try to resuscitate the nation from the point of view of trade. But the old National Service Department, now under the control of the Minister of Labour, is somewhat retarding its progress. I submit that while this retarding is going on, it is hampering the prosperity of our nation, and to a large extent, now that many of these men have been released from the Army, there is no need to continue the restrictions which up to the present time have been so rigidly adhered to.
  The particular case to which I desire to draw the attention of the House is in connection with an ordinary fish licence. It was impossible for a man to develop that into a fish business unless he had the special permission of the Minister concerned. At last, after very many months pleading, we were able to get this fish licence, and I can safely say it has not been in the least derogatory to the ordinary fish dealers of the particular neighbourhood. Not one business has been affected, yet this fish licence is retarded because of certain conditions laid down by the Minister in charge of the Department. What is required is that the restrictions held so rigidly during the War should now be removed, and an opportunity be given to these people to develop their business, in order that trade should not be hampered any longer, and so remove to a large extent the unemployed now walking our streets. I know it was quite right in the early days to protect these men who had gone to protect their nation, but now that it is possible
  670
  for those in one-man businesses to be released from the Army on compassionate grounds, there is no obvious reason why that restriction should be held so tightly. There is another matter which, I think, is retardng the interests of trade in this country. In the early days of the War very many men were anxious to serve their country as members of the fighting forces. I call to mind many, many hundreds of men who, time after time, made repeated attempts, being physically fit, to join the forces. Because of the particular occupation in which they were engaged they were turned down by the military authorities, and ordered to return to their employment which was considered more important in the interests of the nation than joining the fighting forces.
  Many of our railwaymen went forth, strictly patriotic, strictly anxious to do all they could to further the interests of their country. Yet these men were kept in the service of the railway companies for two or three years, though they desired to enlist. In the course of time these men were called to the Colours. As the situation became more apparent to the Government, the call for men became more acute, and these men, as the outcome, were sent into the forces. Not only in the railway industry, but in the engineering industry, and munitions work, many were debarred from joining the forces on similar grounds. In connection with the railwaymen, in particular, many of these men are in the force to-day. They have not been released. The consequence is that railway working is being hampered. These men are being kept in the Army of Occupation and in various parts of this Kingdom, and in Ireland. They are kept, not for any useful purpose that we can see, or as a national asset, but merely because they did not join before 1st January, 1916. Consequently many stations in a prospering condition before the War are closed to the British public. Miles and miles of road are being traversed by horses and carts, which is an expense to the trading community, is one which eventually falls upon the consumers, and naturally, to some extent, is aggravating the industrial unrest that is so prevalent. I put it to the House very, very plainly that if, to a large degree, these men could be released from the Army as a necessity for trade development and for the best interests of the country as a whole, we should, at any rate, find that the terrible expense to which employers of labour

  671
  have to be put in paying for overtime at varying rates would be eased. One thing which every good employer of labour desires to have the opportunity to do is to develop his business. That, to some extent, would relieve unemployment.
  There is one other matter to which I desire to call the attention of the House, and which I think comes within the scope of the War Office. Repeated attempts have been made in this House to get released from the Army the only sons of widows. I regret the Secretary for War is not in his place to hear my complaint. Many hon. Members are daily receiving letters which ask them to see if something cannot be done to release these only sons. I should have thought the Secretary for War, without talking with his military advisers upon this question, would have considered, if there was any ground of compassion upon which such a soldier could be got out of the Army, that ground would be the case of a widowed mother, whose only son came forward at the crisis of the nation's history prepared to sacrifice all for the honour of his country. Many, many old women in this country to-day are living upon a miserable pittance, and without the son, who was not allowed the opportunity of joining the forces, but was drawn into them when he reached eighteen, and is now kept in the forces. His mother to-day is not even existing as a British citizen should exist.
  I want to appeal to the Secretary of State for War. If there is no other word uttered on this question to-night, at least there is one voice which can speak, I hope, from the heart. I want to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, or to those who act for him now, that he will take the earliest opportunity of considering and seeing the advisability of giving back to these widows that comfort, hope, inspiration, and joy that would come to the heart of the mother when she knows that her only son is returning to her home. In conclusion, I should like to refer to Ireland. I hope at no distant date the question of trouble in Ireland will be settled. I am convinced in my own mind that until we are prepared to give self-determination to Ireland—and also self-determination to India—you will have unrest, because it is in accordance with the principles of freedom, and the natural outcome of every nation to govern itself, that it should wish for self-determination—to have that freedom of action
  672
  and freedom of thought which is the cause of the aspirations and deep inspiration of a freedom-loving people.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I should like still further to refer to the question which has been touched upon by recent speakers, including the Prime Minister himself—that of our sister nation, Ireland. One criticism I have to make on the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine (Lieut.-Colonel Murray), and that by the hon. Member for Durham (Major Hills), is that, high and lofty as they were in their note, nevertheless to me they seemed to dwell too much on the need for English action in setting up a form of government for Ireland. That is not the problem. The great problem is to allow the Irish to set up their own form of government. I think we are agreed as a nation—I believe the Empire is agreed—I believe the majority of the people of our Allies are agreed—that the principle of self-determination should be applied impartially, and therefore it must be applied to the Irish people. By self-determination we mean the right of a people to choose its own form of government. To do that the first thing is to remove foreign influences. We have this fact, that the old conception of Empire is out of date. Fine as it was, great as have been the gifts to civilisation of the Empires of the past— including our own—they have been altogether superseded by the new world-order ushered in by the Peace of Versailles, namely, the ideal of the League of Nations. This completely transforms our relation to Ireland and our relation to the whole of our Empire. We are now a Commonwealth of Nations which form a unit, and an important unit, of the new world brotherhood known as the League of Nations. Therefore with the one understanding that Ireland should form part of the same world brotherhood, they should be allowed to choose and form their own form of government entirely.
  The first thing to be done undoubtedly is to remove martial law from Ireland and take away the British troops from that country. I believe then the Irish would settle their own form of government, and it would give them greater satisfaction than any other form of government which is forced upon them, which I understand is what is hinted at by the Prime Minister, and the hon. and gallant Members to whom I have referred. I have no belief in any possibility of civil war in Ireland as

  673
  the result of that action, because the world, generally speaking, is sick of war. The most virile part of Irish manhood has fought in the War, and they have seen as much of fighting as they wish. I believe the state of things in North-East Ulster is largely artificial, and they appear to have been touched by the same new world feelings which are now actuating the democracies of the world, and I believe they will settle down with their fellow countrymen in Ireland and work out an altogether admirable form of government.
  I cannot leave this subject without touching on the objection which I am sure will be made to this very simple solution, namely, the strategical danger to England of a possible hostile Ireland in the future. If we follow out the blind reasoning that we must maintain our predominance over any part of the world that may possibly affect our strategical security in the future, we shall have to extend it over every part of the world. If in the receat world War our Ally, Portugal, instead of rendering us the valuable services she did, had thrown in her lot with the enemy, I believe it would have turned the scale, because her harbours are so strategically placed on the world's food routes that it would have so affected the submarine campaign against our commerce that we should have gone under through lack of shipping, and we should have lost the War. If we have to keep our rule over the Irish people against their will and against the opinion of the majority of our kith and kin at home and abroad on a question of strategy, we had better decide to impose our will on every independent country in the world. The old bogey of possible naval bases in the West of Ireland is dead. It is as dead as the old-world spirit which I hope we have killed for all time as the result of the sufferings of all the countries of Europe for the last five years.
  Ireland can never be a danger to England. It is a little country with practically no coal and no steel, and without those two natural products they cannot take up arms against this country, and this mighty nation standing upright, with her prestige never higher, should not be afraid of a little nation near her shores. That is undignified, and will defeat its own ends. I hope other hon. Members will speak on this subject, and I trust they will not use the strategic bogey, which has been used for "a century," and has turned the people
  674
  from the only true solution of this question. May I reinforce the few words which were said by the hon. Member for Kincardineshire (Lieut.-Colonel Murray) as to the Prime Minister's attitude towards this House. We are told, because the Prime Minister has been in Paris on important work, that questions affecting Ireland, finance, coal and profiteering have been held up. I take it from that that it is meant that no decision has been possible except with the concurrence of one man, the Prime Minister, and because he has to give his consent; to every one of these subjects, of which the most important is Ireland, therefore, he cannot attend the House of Commons, and consequently he is out of touch with the people's representatives. That is practically a dictatorship, for it says one man, and one man alone, can decide and hear the experts. It means that one man alone can read the reports. Therefore, we have an autocracy, and, up to date, that autocracy so far has failed, for we have had no solution of any great problems whatsoever. We have had Royal Commissions, discussions, and excuses, but the box has remained locked, including even the Irish, box. If that is the case, then there is a bankruptcy of statesmanship, and the duty of the Government is to go to the country on some great issue at once, and give another Government a chance.
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: When the Prime Minister was charged with not being sufficiently in attendance at the House of Commons, I think there is every justification for the attitude he took up. There is a considerable amount of truth in what was brought forward by the hon. Member who has just spoken. The real justification for the Prime Minister's absence is that in the Cabinet he should really be settling the great administrative questions that come up for decision, and that we should in good time have a policy presented to the House. It is more in the delay of presenting a policy on really important questions that I think that any just charge can be brought against the Prime Minister than his absence from the House of Commons. I rise just to say a few words with regard to Ireland, because I feel that it is a matter of really vital importance that we should have some indication of policy with as little delay as possible. I imagine that perhaps it may not be an opportune time to raise this question, but this is the way in which announcements of the

  675
  Government's policy have been made, and that makes me think it is well that this question should be brought forward.
  In the first place, it is delay which has caused the trouble, and is causing further trouble on the question of coal. In the next place we have first an announcement with regard to profiteering by the establishment of a Committee, and the next week we have the entirely incompatible announcement that the Government, having set up a Committee to inquire into profiteering, are going to introduce legislation without awaiting the result of that inquiry. Of course, no one who is neither foolish nor ungenerous could help realising the extraordinary pressure which there is at the moment on the time, attention and energies of the Government. At the same time it is certain if we are really to pull ourselves together, as the Prime Minister has asked, we must have clear cut ideas put before the House of Commons without any taint of opportunism in order that we may present a united front in face of the difficulties of the time. In respect of Ireland in particular, for five long years the whole attention of the country has been centred on the great storm raging in continental Europe, with the result that the lesser disturbances, acute as they may have been, have passed quite unnoticed except when there may have been peculiar flashes or it may be a conflagration.
  The House is really entitled to know what is going on in Ireland. At the present moment the veil is still down, but we have a right now that peace has been signed and the pre-occupations of Ministers elsewhere have been lessened to know truly what is going on there. We have occasional glimpses of this or that occurrence. We hear of an insurrection in Limerick. Is it a farce or is it a tragedy? At any rate it is the right of this country to have the veil lifted and to be able to see what is going on at our own doors, and, therefore, to be in a position to frame a policy. The Prime Minister suggested just now that it was all very well to say that something must be done, but, in general, that meant that something foolish must be done. The right hon. Gentleman also observed that when anybody came to him and said that something must be done, his reply was, "What do you suggest?" I venture to say in the first place, it does not lie with the Government
  676
  to make that reply. It is for the Government, as the physician, to prescribe. Under the present circumstances that is peculiarly true because it is the Government which has pulled the veil down over all that is happening in Ireland, and they alone are in possession of the data on which a decision can be based. Their duty, therefore, is quite plain. They themselves should produce their policy, or, better still, lift the veil so that the people of this country may know what is going on in Ireland at the present moment. That is true in any case, but it is all the more urgent that you should have some statement comparatively soon. I do not mean to say you should have it to-day or to-morrow, but the justification of the discussion that has taken place on the question of Ireland is this: that it allows for the difficulties that beset the Government. It is quite clear that two months at least must elapse before they can be called upon in this House to declare their policy. There is, therefore, time for them to devise a policy without being hurried into anything rash. The discussion which has taken place shows that we in this House and in the country want a policy, and therefore, after the Recess, the Government will not be in a position to complain if they are called upon to declare one.
  9.0 P.M.
  It is all the more important if we look at the new condition of things in the new world which we have to face. I myself would be the very last to suggest that we should have some declaration on Irish policy merely to conciliate the goodwill of the United States. I am sure that if the United States were placed in an analogous position they would not be willing to take a step which they did not think right merely in order to conciliate our friendship which they as well as we are so anxious to preserve. Neither would they expect us to take similar action for the same reason. I ask the House to take a wider view of the situation. Probably during the next generation there are likely to be two great factors which may make for the disturbance or maintenance of peace in Europe and in the world. One which no doubt may be a disturbing factor is what will happen with regard to that vast mass known as Russia when once again organised and whether it will be benevolent and peaceful or malevolent and ill. The other great factor, which is the greatest guarantee of the peace of Europe, is the growing intimacy, friendship, and solidarity between the United States and this

  677
  country. Therefore, if any cause of friction such as the state of Ireland arises between the two countries then it is not merely to the interest of this country or of America but it is in the interest of the peace of the world that every effort should be made to eliminate the cause of friction if it can be done without committing an injustice. There are only two other points I wish to urge, and I will do so quite briefly. We need proper administration in this country to try and attempt some settlement. During the past six or eight years I have been an onlooker at the game. During some of those years I have had peculiar opportunities as an onlooker of seeing, and probably the one fact which has impressed me more than any other has been the extraordinary unreality and falseness of the methods by which the Irish question has been voiced. I am inclined to think that, with the exception, perhaps, of one Division of Belfast and its Member, there is hardly a constituency in Ireland whose representative in this House, when he has had to speak or vote on a British question, has done so according to the general intentions and views of the majority of his own constituents. Belfast is largely Labour, I venture to say, and from what I can judge, in tone and sympathy Ulster is largely Liberal in its natural inclinations. The South and West of Ireland are naturally Conservative, except so far as they are biassed on the particular question of Irish nationality, and so we get a real unreality and a falseness brought into public life.
  We must get rid of that element from the Irish situation. My hon. Friend the Member for East Down has declared that there is need for a declaration of policy in order to set this country right, not with its own conscience so much as with the world at large. We went into the struggle which has just been finished, and we did so quite genuinely, in order to fight for the principle of freedom and self-determination for small nationalities. We did our best at the Peace Conference to give effect to the same principle, and in endeavouring to give effect to it we undertook a task even more difficult than the delimitation of provinces and lands. But what is going to be our own situation? Are we going, in any settlement that may be proposed, to allow the same principle of self-determination to be applied to Ireland which we have accepted as our guiding principle for the rest of Europe and
  678
  for the world? And when I speak of self-determination, I mean that that is a right which is equally the due, equally just, and equally indefeasible for the Protestant part of Ireland as for any other nationality. If we put that question to ourselves, the answer is absolutely plain. It cannot be other than that we must apply to Ireland those principles which we ourselves have so openly professed, and for which we entered into the War—the principles which we have endeavoured to carry out in the Peace Conference. Only by so doing can we justify our own conduct in the War, and only in so doing can we maintain our own clean character amongst other nations.
  Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Everybody who has had the privilege of listening to this Debate will agree that it has been one of the most interesting and important Debates we have had in this House for many a long day. I am sorry the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Major Tryon) is not here, otherwise I should have had the pleasure of saying to him that his was one of the ablest speeches delivered by any hon. Member for many weeks in this House. This Debate has ranged over several subjects, yet somehow or other not a single topic has been touched upon or a single sentence used which did not touch the Irish question. Take the question of expenditure. It is common ground to all of us that the country is face to face with a financial problem which causes the gravest misgiving to thoughtful men. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said so. The Prime Minister said so, as well as other hon. Members who have taken part. I cannot discuss the question of extravagant and bloated expenditure without dwelling for a moment on the fact that one of the items in that expenditure, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, is £900,000 a month spent on an Army of Occupation to keep the Irish people down. What is the use of talking about a drastic reduction of expenditure when we are face to face with an expenditure like that—£10,800,000 a year all spent in a way which, if it had happened with Prussia, in Alsace or in Poland or in Russia in the days of the Czars, would have been condemned by all parties in this country as a combination of extravagance on the one side and of oppression on the other. I will come back presently to another point in this Debate that is the practically

  679
  universal agreement of men of all parties in this House—outside the small section represented by my hon. Friends from Ulster and, perhaps, a few rather old-fashioned Tories, of whom there are not many in this House—that the Irish question should be faced immediately and settled.
  I go on to the next point, which, although general, has a direct reference to Ireland. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton spoke of the decline of Parliamentary authority, and in the course of surveying a portion of the situation, he made a strong plea for the respect of the authority of Parliament which ought to be enjoined on the country. He coupled that with the observation that in every country where we found anarchy—and they are many—the beginning of the end was the loss of the authority of the Parliaments of those countries. In Russia, if the infatuated Czar and his infatuated wife had not put down the Duma, the Czar might still be on his throne, and there might have been in Russia that process of gradual evolution from despotism to popular institutions, which I prefer to the violence and abruptness of revolutionary change. In Hungary the destruction of faith in the Parliament led to the domination of that system of disguised tyranny which masked itself as democracy, and which has been exposed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). Believe me, the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton was right when he said that the day the people of this country cease to have faith in their House of Commons, on that day you open the doors to chaos and anarchy. I couple with that one of the topics which have been discussed, namely, the presence in or absence of the Prime Minister from this House. I am an old Parliamentarian, as everybody knows, and I look with some surprise—not altogether agreeable surprise—on the difference between to-day and the old days. When Mr. Gladstone was upwards of eighty years of age, he sat opposite the Treasury Box as Prime Minister and Leader of the House every night of the Session, except for a couple of hours which he took for his dinner outside He was always wise enough not to dine at the House. I do not believe he did so more than five times in the course of his sixty-three or sixty-five years here. I remember being brought to see a sight which I was told was historical—that was
  680
  Mr. Gladstone taking his first dinner in the House of Commons. Mr. Gladstone had then been sixty years a Member of the House of Commons. I take the case of his great rival, Mr. Disraeli. My late friend Sir John Pope Hennessy, a great admirer of Mr. Disraeli, told me that he was once asked how he had saved his Parliamentary soul, and the reply of Mr. Disraeli, as repeated to me, was:
  "A young Member should always be in his seat in the House of Commons, except when he is in the Library reading 'Hansard' and the Parliamentary Debates."
  He was a man seventy years of age, which, naturally, I consider quite the bloom of youth, but when he was Prime Minister he was always seated opposite the Treasury Box. Those are Parliamentary traditions which should not lightly be disregarded. I fully admit that the Prime Minister has had enormous demands on his time, energy, and health during the last six months and even at the present hour, yet I cannot admit the principle, which practically lay behind his observations, that the Prime Minister should make it a rule to be absent from the House of Commons. What, after all, is the House of Commons? It is the people in microcosm; it is the mirror of the nation. I know that it has its hours of boredom. I once described its life as "boredom tempered by passion." This House has this great virtue and quality, that the humblest person in the land can find in it the highest tribunal against injustice. I saw a Ministry shake because a poor sempstress was illegally arrested in Regent Street and detained. My friend Judge Atherley Jones raised the question, and the House of Commons gave a majority against the action of the Home Office. The Government did not go out of power, but Governments have gone out of power on smaller grounds. Whatever may be wrong in our institutions, the House of Commons is the very tabernacle of the liberties of the people of this country. If the Prime Minister is not in touch with the House of Commons, he is not in touch with the people. If he continually absents himself, he is giving an example to other men of disrespect for the House of Commons, and he is striking a blow at the prestige and authority of this House. I am against direct action. If working men feel that their wrongs are not righted, my answer to them is, "You have the ballot to right your wrongs; if you did not use your ballot to right your wrongs, the responsibility is yours, and?

  681
  not that of the House of Commons, which you could have created in your own image but which you have created in an image antagonistic to your interests." Can you speak of direct action anywhere without thinking of direct action in Ireland? I interrupted the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he said that he and the Government would oppose with all the resources of the State any attempt at direct action, and my interposition took the form of the question, "In Ulster?" He said, "Anywhere." I am very glad to get the assurance from the Government, though it strained my credulity a little that they are determined to tolerate direct action neither in Ireland nor in England, and, therefore, when we come to discuss the settlement of the Irish question, that there shall be eliminated from the problem threats of direct action from Ulster. No one will listen more attentively—I might even say more sympathetically—to any demands for their protection against dangers, real or even imaginary, from my hon. Friends from Ulster; but I wish to give them this note of warning, that if they couple these demands for their protection with threats of military and revolutionary action against the Crown and Parliament of this country, they will no longer get a hearing from this country or any part of it.

  I come to the statement of the Prime Minister. It was not quite as hopeless as the statement he made in the previous Debate, but it was hopeless enough. He made a great point of the difficulties of dealing with this question, and he invited proposals from other people. It was said, I think, by Sir Robert Peel, that the Government is the physician of the body corporate, and that it was for the physician to prescribe, and not the Opposition. Therefore, I think I am entitled to demand that the Prime Minister and the Government of which he is the head should come forward with their prescription, and not ask for prescriptions from unofficial amateurs like the rest of us in this House.
  An HON. MEMBER: Or resign!
  Mr. O'CONNOR: I do not think the latter alternative may be regarded as practical policy. I have heard of Governments being weary of office, but I never knew any of them to resign unless they were forced. Is this problem of Ireland new? Has it suddenly come upon us with a rush? Has it not been almost the supreme topic of
  682
  political and electoral controversies since 1885? From the time that the Prime Minister himself became a Member of this House, in 1892, if I remember rightly, he always came before the House as a man who was convinced of the necessity of settling the Irish question on the lines of self-government. Long before he was a Member of this House, according to the statements of his biographers, the first great inspiration he ever got in political life was from listening to a speech by Michael Davitt, and then, convinced all through his life, from probably his twenty-first year, of the righteousness of the Irish claim, he comes down easy and free and detached in 1919 and wrings his hands because he can find no solution of the problem. In April, 1917, at the darkest hour of our fortunes in this War, the Prime Minister, who now wrings his impotent bands over the solution of this question, pledged himself there and then to settle the Irish question with all the resources and all the power of his Government. He had a solution in April, 1917, at the time of the triumph of the great German push, and now, in August, 1919, he is still in a state of infantile ignorance and senile despair over the solution of the problem to which he has been pledged all his life. I do not think that is a dignified position.
  People wonder what are the root causes of Sinn Fein. If I were going to make a psychological analysis of Sinn Fein I am afraid I should have to detain this House, not for hours, but for days. I once sat through forty-one hours of Parliamentary Debate, but I am not equal to that to-day, and even if I were I am sure Mr. Speaker would bring it to an end long before that. One of the main causes of Sinn Fein is that, while so many promises have been made by British statesmen, including the Prime Minister, those promises have so frequently and consistently been broken. As a Parliamentarian well acquainted with the English people, I tell them that if they would only send representatives to this House they could get liberty for Ireland. When they are assured by men like myself, who have lived fifty years among the English people in amity and affection, that the masses of the British people are honourable, fair-minded, generous, and liberty-loving; when I tell them that I have known thousands of Englishmen as ready to work and, if necessary, to die for the cause of Irish liberty as the Irish people have been, they say that those people are easily duped, or, if not dupes,

  683
  are ready to impose the same condition is upon Ireland as British statesmen. The reason that they give for that view, which I still think to be profoundly wrong and misguided, is the breach by successive administrations of the pledges and promises made to Ireland. The result is that they are of opinion, like some other wise and foolish people, that Parliamentary institutions have no longer any right to their faith and their loyalty, and that direct action is the only means of acquiring their rights.
  I, however, am not converted to that view. I am a Parliamentarian still, and I shall be one to the day of my death. At the same time I say that there is a heavy responsibility on the head of the Prime Minister, who, in 1917 and many a day before, promised Ireland liberty, and has given Ireland militarism and still maintains militarism and postpones liberty indefinitely. During my trip to America I was assailed by abuses all the time, and I dare say millions of my own people still believe the statement that I received £l,000 a week from the Secret Service of the British Government, and that so precious was my person to the British Government that I was sent out in a special British cruiser. As a matter of fact I went out in a Cunarder, the Government showed no particular desire to save my precious skin, and I was not the tool of any British party. So far as the British Government are concerned, they have not shown any particular gratitude for the fact that for thirty years I fought for the cause of the Entente, and was able to give words of cheer to the American people—I might even say, in some part of the country, words of guidance—in some of the dark hours of our fortunes in the War. I was glad to be able to say that, however dark the prospects of the hour, we never entertained the idea of defeat by the Germans. Having had that experience, I felt entitled to tell the people of this country what the opinion of America was on the question of Ireland, and, within a few hours of my arrival after that long and somewhat trying trip to America, I addressed the House of Commons. I told them that I saw there materials for a strong anti-English movement if the question of Ireland were not settled, but I confess that, although I was convinced that there would be that anti-English movement if the Irish problem was not solved, I never anticipated that the movement
  684
  would reach the gigantic proportions it has reached to-day. I have an advantage over some of my hon. Friends in this House, in that I occasionally get extracts from the American Press, and they are rather disquieting reading. I saw that in San Francisco the other day the Mayor of that great city presented an address to Mr. de Valera, who appeared there as the President of the Irish Republic. I saw that that gentleman addressed an audience of 11,000 people in the greatest hall of the city. I saw that on the afternoon of the same day he was presented with a university degree by one of the universities of the city, and that large contributions were being poured into his hands from all parts of the United States.
  I may be told that we should ignore all that. Some of my hon. Friends will say it is rather unfortunate that a political question, more or less domestic, should become a political question in another country. But in politics, as in life, we have to face realities, and it is a reality that the question of Ireland has now become a political problem in America. I express no opinion on the general proposition how far one country has a right to interfere in the domestic concerns of another, but to me it is stupid to talk of all this in America as merely politics, and to say that it does not mean anything after all. If it is important enough to become politics in America, then it is important enough for us to take account of the opinion there. Supposing that there wore renewed in Russia what occurred in the days of the father of the late Czar, namely, a wholesale deportation of the Jewish population of that great Empire. That crime brought its Nemesis in the present condition of Russia. Would anybody blame the Jews of this country, or the Jews of the United States or of any other country, for raising their voices in protest, would anybody blame a Member of this House who raised his voice in protest against such an act of inhumanity? The world is getting smaller. We are all dependent upon one another for our trade and our opinions, and any man who disregards the opinions and acts of other nations, even with regard to his own domestic affairs, is a man who ought to have lived in the days before the telegraph, before Marconi, before the newspapers, and before the big steamers.
  How does it affect this country as a nation? If there a single speaker who

  685
  has spoken since America came into this War who has not over and over again put it as the supreme intention of this country and of the world that the United States and the British Empire should be on the best and most cordial terms? Nobody has put that more eloquently or more frequently than the Prime Minister. Equal in eloquence and equal in fervence have been the speeches of the War Secretary on the subject. It does not require elaboration. If these two great English-speaking-nations do not remain on good terms with each other and remove all misunderstandings and destroy any possibility of ill-feeling between the two countries, then I repeat what I said the other night in a debate here that we shall get nothing but dead-sea fruit for all the sacrifices of our gallant men, and for the oceans of treasure and of blood that have been poured out in securing the liberty of this country and the security of the world. England and America are the two great national guardians of the peace of the world. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham, in a very cogent speech was perfectly right when he said that the whole idea of the League of Nations was a mere fantasy and a delusion unless we have England and the United States standing at the portals of the Temple of Peace with fiery sword to defend the cause of peace against any attempt of autocracy in the future to destroy it. Is there any single man who does not express the same opinion?
  There has not been any man who has been more outspoken in his plea for the cause of the Entente than Mr. James M. Heck, who was on our side long before his country came into the War. He spoke in language of almost violent condemnation of the neutrality of his country. He was one of the men who helped to bring the United States into the War. Anyone who knows the very mixed elements of American life as intimately as I do can understand all the difficulties that were in the way of President Wilson in bringing his country into the War. The other day I got a copy of a book by Mr. Beck. He wrote, "The Evidence of the Case," which everybody read at the time, as the most powerful and unanswerable plea for our cause against Germany that was ever written. Long before his country came into the War he came here and made pleas for the cause of the Allies and the liberty
  686
  which they represented. Therefore, he is an authority I have a right to quote. He is one of our best friends. He said:
  "Let the citizens of both nations, before it is too late, use their collective influence to eliminate from the Peace Conference any issue that may bring discord between Great Britain and the United States. That way safety lies. If this path of safety be not taken, abyssmal disaster lies before us, for it will he a disaster of immeasurable proportions if Great Britain and the United States should part company at the coming Peace Conference. In that event the blessed feeling of concord would give way to distrust and ill-feeling in both countries. These feelings would grow, even as they grew between Germany and England, and sooner or later these two great nations might find themselves in a conflict which could only bring sorrow and misfortune to both."
  Mr. Beck having used that analogy with regard to Germany, reminds me that I began life in London just after the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War, and I thank my destiny that I have lived long enough to see the undoing of the great wrong done to France in tearing from her bleeding side the province of Alsace-Lorraine. It is some consolation for advancing years to have outlived a world of triumphant wrong and to have entered into this new world of triumphant right. Even, after that war, even after the action of the Germans in taking Alsace-Lorraine, and especially at the beginning of the outbreak of war between France and Germany, the feeling of the vast mass, if not the majority, of the people of this country was on the side of Germany. That was partly owing to the astuteness of Prince Bismarck in publishing the secret treaty on the proposed annexation of Belgium by Louis Napoleon of France. In my obscurity and modesty at the time—I do not say that I have lost either one or the other—I found myself almost alone in England on the side of France, and for years afterwards there was nothing but good feeling on the part of the majority of Englishmen towards Germany.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Whitley): I would remind the hon. Member that this is the Consolidated Fund Bill for 1919–20. Strictly speaking, we ought to keep only to matters within the present financial year.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: Perhaps I was making too large a claim on your indulgence, Mr. Whitley, and on that of the House, and I beg pardon if I have done so, but I was anxious to make this point, that you can have a feeling gradually growing up between two countries and one

  687
  fine day, just like a match in a powder magazine, some incident occurs which sets aflame the passions between the nations, and you have chaos and disaster such as we have had in this War. That is the reason why I dwelt—and I beg the House to dwell—upon the peril of allowing misunderstandings to grow up between the United States and this country. There are many dements of danger, not only for England and America, but for the world, in such misunderstanding. For these reasons I appeal to the House to use all their influence with the Government to face this question. There is a terrible responsibility, and almost an undivided responsibility, on the part of the Prime Minister in regard to this matter. He will find no difficulty from the House of Commons if he makes his policy one of generosity and promptitude in regard to Ireland. He has the power to do it, and he ought to have the will and the, vision to do it. If we do that I think we shall all see the dawn of a great future of brightness and of better feeling in the world.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I might say that I hate the narrow nationalism of the Sinn Feiners, and the whole development of the last five years on extreme narrow nationalist lines seems to me to be thoroughly reactionary, but the domination exercised by England over Ireland represents something even more disgraceful to every right-minded Englishman. We realise above everything else that our good relations with America are dependent almost entirely upon the solution of this Irish question. The attitude of the Government on this question is causing grave concern not among the opponents of the Government, but among their own followers, and also among all people who have the best wishes of the British Empire at heart. The solution seems to me to be perfectly simple. It is a solution which cannot please the Sinn Feiner nor can it please the Ulster-man. It is the solution in accordance with President Wilson's fourteen points. Let that part of the country which may wish to govern itself do so, and let it be perfectly free to get outside the British Empire altogether if it wishes to do so. On those lines, following the old British tradition of love of liberty, you could not only settle the Irish question, but you could do something far more important—that is, cement for all time the real union of the whole English-speaking race, Irish,
  688
  American, and English, in all parts of the world, and thereby establish for all time a unified, civilised, liberty-loving Government throughout the world. That is what we all want whether we are of the Opposition or the Government, and I beg the Prime Minister of this country to take his courage in both hands, to defy extremists on both sides, and to attempt a just and honest solution on lines which will in the long run give satisfaction to the whole civilised world.
  In the course of this Debate we have had many denunciations from hon. Members, not only of the Sinn Fein form of direct action, but of all direct action in the government of the world. Naturally being a Member of this honourable House, and being a constitutionalist. I am opposed to direct action myself, but I do think we should beware of lauding our own virtues too much. Praise of constitutional action comes ill from a Parliament which is very largely owing to the snap nature of the last election, an unconstitutional Parliament, and we must realise that it is the very nature of this Parliament, from the manner in which it was elected, that it should give an additional impetus to this movement for direct action which now exists. At every meeting in the country I have the questions put whether I am in favour of direct action to get the troops out of Russia and to force a General Election. Those two questions are put together to me at every meeting which I address. The essence of the feeling in favour of direct action is principally that the people were duped at the last election. It is all very well for my Friend the Member for the Scotland Division to say that the people elected this Parliament and must abide by the result. We all know that the last election was not a normal election, and we must all expect in consequence a large number of people, who are exasperated by the temporary triumph of reaction, to revert to a form of Government which, in the mind of every reasoning person, is wholly unsuited for a democratic, liberty-loving people. In essence, direct action means government by the minority as opposed to constitutional action, which is government by the majority. We all know that the majority is very often a tyrant. Personally, on purely philosophic principles, I object to being governed by a majority. One naturally looks forward to a time when we shall be governed not by majority but by consent; but however much some of us

  689
  may object to majority rule, it is an infinitely better rule than minority rule, whether that minority be a solitary Czar on his throne or the dictatorship of a proletariat established on the points of bayonets and in reality looking after the interests of the proletariat mass less than the interests of the dictators.
  I have recently had the advantage of visiting Hungary. I spent only seven days in that country, but travelling through the country districts, and in Buda Pesth I saw a great deal of the dictatorship, of the proletariat in that country, and I think it is my duty to this House that I should say something of my impressions of the dictatorship rule because very few Members of Parliament have had the opportunity of seeing this new form of government, a new form of government which is the child of direct action. In Hungary they have established a master ship of communism. The whole basis of that revolution was not the desire of the majority of people for communism, nor their impregnation with the Marxian doctrine. The basis of that revolution was the starvation, the hunger of the population of Buda Pesth, which had a population of 1,000,000 before the War, a population that was doubled during the War by the large numbers of people, principally Jews from Galicia, who came in to work in the armament factories in Buda Pesth. After the War the armament factories were closed, and these large masses of people were out of work. In the country districts around there was plenty of food. Six million people in the country had more than enough to eat, and 2,000,000 people in the town had nothing to eat. The people in the country wanted those things which the people in the town ought to be able to make, but the people in the town were unable to make anything to give in exchange for the food which they wanted because they could not get coal or iron, and because of the general bankruptcy which the War had produced. So that in Buda Pesth, even if there had not been a Bolshevik revolution, it was utterly impossible to start the factories, owing to the complete lack of credit and of any chance of getting raw material.
  They are in exactly the same position in Vienna to-day, and in many of those other manufacturing towns in East Central Europe, such as Lodz, Warsaw, Brunn, and Cracow. In those towns, fortunately, I think we are feeding the inhabitants, or rather, Mr. Hoover is feeding them. If the inhabitants of Buda Pesth had been fed
  690
  they might not have had a Bolshevik revolution, but if the manufacturing population of these towns are not fed they must get food somehow. The only way is to get it by force from the country population around them, who have got the food they want, and if I or any member of this House had been an autocrat in Buda Pesth after this War and had got the problem of how to feed 2,000,000 people who produced nothing to exchange for the food for the country districts, I do not know what other way we could have found except a dictatorship of some form or other. They took the dictatorship of the proletariat, of men who were enthusiasts and fanatics and mostly Jews, for the brains of Eastern Europe are very largely Jewish. These people are imbued with the Marxian doctrine; they are not like the Russians. They have come to the conclusion that the only salvation for civilisation is to turn everybody in the State into a direct servant of the State. They look forward to the time when the fertile plains of Hungary, vast stretches of the most perfect agricultural land in the world, will all be under State control, ploughed up by State steam ploughs, the ploughs driven by men who were officials of the Government, where there should be no individual initiative in the creation of any thing, but where everybody would co-operate to create for the benefit of everybody. We all know that if human nature were perfect that might be a solution, but as human nature is to-day they found considerable opposition from the people of Hungary, from all the peasants who, under the Government of Count Karolyi, had been promised the land. Count Karolyi broke up the big estates, the landlords were bought out at pre-war values, which at the present depreciated value of the crown meant that they were bought out at about one-tenth of the present value, and the land was handed over to the peasants. The new Bolshevik revolution said to these peasants, who saw almost in their hands the land which they coveted, "There is no private property in land." Under the Marxian law all property belongs to the State, must be cultivated by the State, and by the officials of the State. Therefore, every man who cultivated land, every tenant farmer who hoped to become the owner of land, was dead against the revolutionary Government. Marxianism was alright in the abstract, but they held that it did not apply to their case.

  691
  Naturally, you had an overwhelmingly hostile feeling in the country districts to any form of dictatorship of the proletariat which meant taking away their land and paying for the food that they produced with bad money which was worth nothing outside Hungary. State factories were started. There, too, the pure Marxian doctrine says that the factories are to produce in the interests of the community as a whole. The result was, of course, that the factories produced practically nothing at all. Not only was there grave difficulty in getting raw material, but even greater difficulty in getting men to work, for few men will work if they find that they are paid for doing little or no work. It very often took six men to do the work that one man had done during the War. Under these circumstances communal production may be possible, but it is not an economic or commercial proposition. The people of Hungary will prefer and continue to buy the agricultural implements and the clothes they want from foreign countries, where such implements and clothes are produced more cheaply than they can be produced under the expensive communal system. There, too, you have the failure of the pure Marxian doctrine. Worst of all was the abolition of private property. If you do that by law, and do not enforce that law or enforce it spasmodically and irregularly, you create a state of affairs which is the nearest, approach to a terror that I have ever seen. There are no Law Courts at all. No one can defend land or property or anything that is his. At the same time there is extraordinarily good order kept in the country. I should think that ninety-nine people out of a hundred would prefer to lose their lives rather than their property. In Hungary, although private property has been abolished, there is still private property. Every man knows that if he is denounced by one of the spies or political directors, who are always hovering in the background, the punishment may be the loss of his property or of his Government job; in fact, he may be driven into the Red Army. Those are the weapons of a dictatorship, and they are a far more efficient weapon than executions.
  10.0 P.M.
  There have been practically no executions and no red terror whatever in Hungary. The terror is that a man may
  692
  find that he has lost his property, that his house has been visited and his clothes and books taken, and he has no redress because there are no Law Courts to defend his interests. Naturally, this form of Marxian communism could not last. The Government tried to move towards the right, so as to get into touch with the Entente and at the same time to meet the opposition of the peasants. The new Government that was formed was a move in the right direction. They have moved to the right, and they have established there now, or had established up to to-day, a form of Labour Government which was exactly what I hoped for when I was in that country. The two great unions, the agricultural workers and the railway workers, were already opposed to the dictatorship. The metal workers have since gone over. These three great trade unions, which practically represent not only the town population but the agricultural population of Hungary, have united in the support of a Socialistic Government, and this Government, to my mind, is the one that we here should do our best to support. If, on the other hand, we throw away this gold on opportunity and allow reaction to triumph, allow the counter-revolutionary Government to get into the saddle and to re-establish the Archduke Joseph as King or the King of Roumania as King of Hungary also, then there is no end to the trouble that will ensue. All these people have had four or five months of liberty and equality and fraternisation, which always follows any form of revolution. Any nation which has had that experience never goes back to the old aristocratic Government that those Eastern countries had in the past. It would be fatal to suppose that you could re-establish the monarchy and aristocratic form of government in Austria and in Hungary. They have been seen through. There is no man in those countries who has a good word to say for the old regime. I do ask the Government to do all that they can to support a democratic regime in Hungary, although it be a Socialist régime, because I am confident, if they go right over to the wishes of the emigrés, you will get a system of government which will be thoroughly unstable and you will do what is far worse. You will start that system of terrorism and murderers and political executions which will be the forerunner of reaction and of

  693
  terror on the other side, and which will establish this perpetual to-and-fro of massacre that we see in Russia to-day. Hitherto the Reds in Hungary have committed no massacres. The Whites have started, according to rumours to-day, to try to get hold of Bela Kun and another, who have fled to Vienna, and already one man has been shot—it is said by his own hand. If you are going to have a White terror started by these reactionaries, who hate the Jews with an inconceivable hatred of which we have no idea, and let these people have their Jew pogroms and assassinations and executions, you are starting a fire which will burn on for years to come and which will end in the extermination of all that is best on both sides. The real solution is quite simple, and that is not to allow the Roumanians to have any voice in the domination of Hungary to-day. The Roumanians are now in charge of the capital of Hungary. The real reason why the Hungarians beat back the Czechoslovaks is that the Hungarian Army is still impregnated with pride of race and believes itself infinitely superior to those inferior peoples, as they regard them, whom they held down. The Hungarians regard the Slovaks much as, a hundred years ago, we regarded the Indian or the inhabitants of the South Sea Islands. They do not regard them as their equals. When you remember the inordinate pride of race possessed by the Hungarians and see the Roumanians in occupation of Buda, Pesth, with the position of Transylvania and Voldavia and the Danubian Principalities during the years 1917–18, and when you remember that the Hungarians hate those people like poison, for goodness' sake send English troops, if only a regiment, in order to look after the interests of the Hungarian population and to see that there is fair-play between these two Kilkenny cats. One thing I found there was the enormous faith that everyone has in England, whether it was by the Germans in Austria or in Vienna, or in the country districts of Hungary, or among the Soviets in Buda Pesth.
  Earl WINTERTON: And in Russia, too.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: They were all friendly to me because I was an Englishman and because they regarded England as the one fair country. The other foreign missions in Vienna contain a very large element of men out to get concessions, to acquire interests, to build up future trade. The Englishman is far too stupid
  694
  to try to get concessions for himself. The only thing that he can think of is to carry on in the old way. It is because we are so stupid and do not think of those sort of things but still try to do our duty that we have got such an extraordinarily good name in all those countries. If we had some of our men in Vienna or in Buda Pesth we should, at any rate, give some sort of guarantee, not only for the good government of that place, but for the settlement, the genuine settlement of all those Eastern countries on ethnological lines. You had the Poles sweeping over Roumania and Galicia, and you had the Czeoho-Slovaks going into other territory and their occupation acknowledged by the Allies in Paris. The people there in the East saw that the fait accompli was worth a great deal in the final demarcation. You had Roumania going to the Tagis, and they would not go back when they were ordered to do so, and now that they are gone to Buda Pesth the idea is that it is the fait accompli again, and that, being in possession, the Allies will give way to them, and that because, like the Poles and the Slovaks, they have defied the Entente, that those countries they have overrun will be left to them with a shrug of the shoulders, and that they will remain in possession of other people's property. Therefore, send English troops and American troops there—only a small number; a division, or a regiment is enough—for policing purposes, and then we should have some guarantee for the fair carrying out of the decisions of the Allies in Paris and a fair prospect of a real and peaceful and satisfactory settlement of the country.
  In Vienna there are all the elements for reproducing the Bolshevik outbreak that took place in Buda Pesth. There the factories are still dead. There you have a population of 2,000,000 who are out of work and producing nothing for the food they want. Fortunately, up till now we have been able to feed Vienna. It is true that Vienna is the worst town I have been in for hunger. But it is being fed really by charity. We are pauperising, and it cannot go on indefinitely. The Austrian, crown is, as the House probably knows, about as low as anything on earth. The Austrian crown now represents a 1¼d., and before the War it was worth 11d. That depreciation indicates how difficult it is for manufacturers in Austria to purchase raw materials. If they want coal or machinery from this country, they must pay nine times as much as they did before

  695
  the War on account of that depreciation. Obviously, that makes it extremely difficult for them to start their factories again, and it makes them very anxious to go on living on the doles which are given. That cannot last. It is in our interest, as well as in the interests of Austria, to get Austria on to its legs again, and what I want to see, and what all our people on the spot want to see, is that British capital should take a hand in re constructing the Austrian industries. Most of the old manufacturing companies in Austria had their headquarters in Vienna and their factories all over the Empire—many of them in Czecho slovakia, many of them in Hungary, many of them in Jugo-Slavia. Nowadays Austria is chopped up into little bits, and their factories find themselves severed entirely from their headquarters, and what the Austrian manufacturers, financiers and bankers ask for is the co-operation of British capital. They say, "If only you will send out a deputation of people to this country who will acquire an interest in our factories, if they will buy up 20 per cent. of our shares at the very depreciated price of the present crown, that is to say, a pound going nine times as far in purchasing crowns us it did before the War, if you will do that, we will give you con trol—we will give you 51 per cent. of the control of the company—we will give you seats on the board, we will make it an international company, and in return we ask you to pay the price of these shares in raw materials to start our factories going." Of course, partly they want to be made international because in the welter of affairs out there to have an Englishman or a Frenchman on your board of directors is probably to save your company from robbery and confiscation in some next-door territory, especially with these revolutions on, but they also want to start again. They know they will have to pay a big price for raw materials, and they offer this opportunity of re-starting their factories.
  I do not want people in England to imagine it is helping the enemy. It is helping ourselves. It is helping them too, but it is helping ourselves primarily. Where you invest your money, there your trade will go. Look at the Argentine Everybody knows that two-thirds of the capital of the Argentine has been found by people in this country, with the result that during the twenty years before this War
  696
  our trade with the Argentine has gone up by leaps and bounds and has been the mainstay of our foreign trade, and I want to see the same thing reproduced in these countries in the Near East. I want to see British capital invested in Vienna, in Prague, in Warsaw, in Cracow, in Buda Pesth. I want to see these places helped on to their feet again by British capital, with the result that trade between these countries and England will be perpetuated and strengthened from year to year by the interest which we earn on that capital. Now is the chance. Personally, I realise that any capital invested there undergoes a certain amount of risk, but, after all, British capital has not been built up without taking risks, and the British name stands so well, and the importance of being a British citizen employing British capital is so great, that most of these little countries in the East have a great respect, not only for the capital, but for the name of the Government that goes behind the capital, and I do not belive the risk is as great as some people think. I realise that with the appreciation in the value of the crown or of the mark, because what I have said applies to Germany also, which is bound to follow shortly—it cannot be that we shall have this extraordinary unbalance of exchange permanently existing—your investment appreciates too, and it is not so much the interest you may hope to get for your investment as the capital appreciation due to the appreciation in the value of the crown. We all know, or I hope we do, how we have benefited through the appreciation in the value of the rupee in India, and exactly the same thing, but on a far larger scale, may be expected from the appreciation of the value of the crown and the mark. I have spoken to the Government privately about this; it is the only way one can do it nowadays—to speak privately to them. I hope they will take steps to send out to Vienna a deputation of financiers and manufacturers who will meet the people who are asking for their help, and see if something cannot be done to get Vienna out of the workhouse and of the Poor Law list and into the state of a manufacturing nation once more. Anything that is done there to save that country from Bolshevism will also help to save this country from Bolshevism. It is part of the modern heresy that what benefits Germany hurts us; what benefits Austria hurts us. Everybody who has had anything to do

  697
  with business knows that the future prosperity of this country depends upon the future prosperity of Europe, and that you cannot stamp the rest of Europe in the mud and expect to keep out of the mud yourself.
  Mr. SEDDON: I have no intention to follow the last speaker, except to continue his remarks with reference to trade, and I want to deal with British trade lather than with trade in Hungary, or any other part of the world. The Prime Minister, in his statement to the House, informed us that he had been exceedingly busy dealing with those great problems, and amongst them was the question of trade. I view with some little alarm the evidences coming into my hands of the activities of those with whom we have recently been fighting. The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down says it is a heresy that what benefits one country is an injury to the other. I want to come down to details in connection with a trade he knows something about. I have in my possession two letters which have come from German firms, one in Amsterdam and the other in Sweden. They have made inquiries of their former purchasers in the Potteries district whether they could renew the commercial relationship. During the War, when this particular commodity was cut off, those who are now engaged in it in the Potteries, were asked to sink more capital in the production of chromatic requirements in that particular industry, and I have it on authority that many thousands of pounds have been sunk in the belief that at least they would get some consideration from the Government when Peace was declared, and that, having helped the Government and the trade in their hour of trial, they would not be left to the tender mercies of everybody else who would like to take the trade from them.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Protection!
  Mr. SEDDON: Honesty, I think, is a greater virtue than fiscal correctitude, and I prefer to be honest than to be a slavish worshipper of one form of ism or any other form of ism. These men were asked, and induced, to put their money in this. They did it in good faith, and what is the position to-day? One of the letters informs me—and it is touting for business—that as soon as the blockade is raised, they will be able to enter into commercial relationship. On what terms? The hon. and gallant Member talked about
  698

  sending capital out to Hungary. That is the very thing that Germany wants at the present time. Many of her undertakings have been continued, and she has got crowded warehouses with certain commodities. She wants either money or raw material, and it is a condition of these offers that are being made that the money must be paid in advance. What are the terms of the offers made? In one case a quarter of a million sheets of transfers have been offered for cash at the mere cost of the paper—3d. per sheet. All the labour and capital from the stone to the transfer, which is then transferred to the pottery-ware, goes for nothing. We are thus in this position—the men who have helped to maintain the trade of the country, following on the inducements of the Government and on its good faith to put new capital into their businesses, unless we are very careful, in our great love for every country but our own, these gentlemen are going to lose their money so that some may renew their trade friendship with those who have been our worst enemies.
  Another point—and I am sorry that no representative of the Exchequer is here. During the Debate on the Budget my hon. Friends the Members for West Layton and Nottingham made a request to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the British manufacturers of films should not be penalised when they sent their stock companies to France, Italy, or any other part of Europe. I am afraid the curt way in which the Treasury have dealt with this question proves the ignorance on the part of their advisers of the enormous utility and growth of this industry. When I inform the House that every week twenty millions of the population of this country go to picture houses, when we remember that a large number of those who are in attendance at these places of amusement are children, when we further remember what was wisely said by one of the fathers of the Church: "Give me the child up to ten years of age and you can do what you like with him afterwards," we can see the great importance of this new industry. It brings amusement to millions of our population. It can be an aid, an advantage in education, and in many other ways. I say we can at least consider the desirability, so far as the economic position is concerned, of the films which are presented to the people of this country, that they shall be of British origin instead of originating in other countries.

  699
  I am not speaking from any antipathy to America or other country. We have figures showing that something like three-sixths of the film production of the world comes from the United States, two-sixths come from France, Italy, etc., and one-sixth from this country. What is the position to-day? Even the Press are beginning to get a little bit bemused and bewildered at the phraseology of the films that are being introduced into this country, and I can readily conceive if we are going to confine ourselves to imported films we shall require a new dictionary to interpret the slang of America to the children of this country. My point is this: This is a very big industry. It is claimed to be the fifth industry of the United States. There are millions of capital involved. To give one illustration. A deal was completed in this country last week to the tune of half a million of money. From the point of view of trade, therefore, I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer at least was unfair to this new industry which is seeking to come into being. Most people who follow the tables of this industry will know that they have laid themselves out to capture the trade throughout the length and breadth of the world.
  They must know that, so far as a channel for education is concerned, it would be invaluable for this country and for commerce. Here is an industry which started late. The Americans have got millions of capital, and have maintained a position and are fighting to keep it. As a new industry springs up they find it would suit them to send their companies to Italy or any other part of Europe. The Chancellor of the Exchequer treats British films manufactured by British stock companies in France or Italy as foreign produced films, and puts an extra duty on them, oblivious of the fact that when an English firm sends its stock companies to a foreign country it increases its expenses and prevents it competing favourably in the open market. Here is a great force, a new industry that at least should be treated with some consideration. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer will allow them to go to the Isle of Man without any duty upon the film produced in the Isle of Man, and that would be very little loss to the Exchequer, they would give the same facilities so that a British stock company taking scenes in France or Italy, under proper safeguards, at least that film produced
  700
  by a British stock company and brought here for British purposes for British films should be treated with equity and justice and fair play. I hope the hon. Gentleman who represents the Government will convey to the Chancellor of the Exchequer my very modest plea for him to reconsider his position, and when British capital and a British stock company produce a British film, and they have to go to France or Italy, it ought to be treated as a British and not a foreign production.
  Captain ORMSBY-GORE: I know the House is anxious to get this Bill through, but, as the representative of the Foreign Office is here, I do feel it desirable to call attention to the answers to questions which he gave to-day in regard to the representation of this country in certain States of Central and Eastern Europe. It is perfectly clear that in the last few days there has taken place in Hungary another revolution, and there has been established not only one new Government, but possibly two, and that the only representatives of this country on the spot are military officers, and I think it is desirable, in the interests of the peace of the world, that there should be at the earliest possible moment adequate diplomatic and political representation of this country in those places.
  I think it is most vital that in Bucharest, in Buda Pesth, Vienna, Belgrade, and Sofia we should at the earliest moment get adequate political representatives who will give us political, economic, and commercial intelligence as to what is going on in those countries, and that we should not rely solely on military measures, officered, no doubt, by men of exceptional ability, but looking at matters from a purely military point of view. It is the paramount interest of this country to secure at the earliest possible moment peaceful relations in these newly-extended Balkans. We have Balkanised the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, and at the present time the peace of Europe is being held up by continued explosions of either Bolshevism or aggressive Chauvinism, or the aggressive nationalism of these various countries.
  The House has learned from the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) that British prestige still stands high in Central and Eastern Europe, and that not a moment should be lost in sending adequate diplo-

  701
  matic and political representatives to those countries, with definite instructions from the Foreign Office that British policy is determined to secure a peaceful settlement between the rival nations in those parts of the world. Otherwise we are going to have a series of Balkan wars, one following the other, and we shall miss our present golden opportunity of reestablishing peace in those parts. But we cannot do that as long as we are merely represented by generals, as long as our representation has the outward appearance of war. Our representatives there are in uniform, and we are continuing the idea that the Allies are represented there for the purpose of continuing the War and getting military intelligence. What we want at the earliest possible moment is a Peace settlement in those countries. As long as war continues in those parts war conditions will remain all over the world. I profoundly regret the delay which is apparent in Paris at the present moment. I regret they are not hurrying up the Treaty of Peace with Austria-Hungary. Bulgaria, and Turkey. The sooner we get those treaties signed and ratified the better it will be for the world and the sooner we can concentrate on the work of Imperial reconstruction. But we shall never do it as long as we continue merely these military missions.
  Exactly the same thing applies to Southern Russia. I am certain that one really good diplomatic commercial political representative in the rear of General Denikin's Army would be worth a large number of exalted military officers. What we want is to restore to these war-stricken areas of Europe the idea that England at any rate, even if some of the other Allies are not with us, wants to get back to conditions which are not military, but peaceful, constructive, civilian conditions, at the earliest possible moment. I think our Foreign Office is behindhand. The War Office is quick to rush into the breach and send officers. Why is it that the Foreign Office is not equally quick to have a Consul-General, Consuls, diplomatic and political representatives, in all these small States and new countries in Central and Eastern Europe? I think it is one of the most urgent questions which I could bring to the attention of the House at the present time. I do hope that I shall receive an assurance from the hon. Gentleman representing the Foreign Office that he will take urgent steps to impress upon the Acting-Foreign Secretary—who I am
  702
  afraid is not sufficiently sympathetic to the vital urgency of this question—the need for sending adequate Consular and Diplomatic representation particularly to Buda Pesth, Sofia, and Belgrade at the present time.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth): I should not have intervened in tins Debate but for the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend. I rather resent his observation in reference to the Acting-Secretary of State. I can assure him, and, indeed, the House and the country, that there is no more devoted public servant than the Acting-Secretary of Slate. I can assure the House that he gives a very large amount of time, often under circumstances of great difficulty, to these very matters to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred. I should like to have observed in his speech a closer realisation of the fact that in all these questions in Europe we have to work with our Allies. It is not what His Majesty's Government is doing, or what any other single Government is doing; it is what the Allies in Paris are doing. My hon. and gallant Friend suggests that we should establish Diplomatic and Consular offices at once in Buda Pesth. I should almost for a moment imagine that he has not been reading his newspapers just recently. There is a political mission in Buda Pesth which has just arrived there; but it is an Inter-Allied mission, as I am sure the House will agree it ought to be. I will take a note of what my hon. and gallant Friend has said and will bear it in mind, and I assure him that, so soon as military missions can be avoided, it is the desire of the Foreign Office, and must be the desire of the Government, to substitute political and diplomatic representatives.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

  COAL MINES BILL
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  COAL MINES BILL

    Clause 1.—(Reduction of Hours of Employment Below Ground.)
    The Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1908, in its application to mines in which coal is worked shall have effect subject to the following modifications—

    703

    (a) as from the sixteenth day of July, nine teen hundred and nineteen, this Act shall have effect as if in Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section one thereof for "eight hours" there were substituted "seven hours," and as if in proviso (a) to Sub-section (7) of Section one thereof for "nine hours and a half" there were substituted "eight hours"; and

    (b) if, after the end of the year nineteen hundred and twenty, a Resolution is passed by both Houses of Parliament that the economic position of the coal industry is such as to allow a further reduction of working hours, then, as from the thirteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and twentyone, the Act shall have effect as if in Sub sections (1) and (2) of Section one thereof for "eight hours" there were substituted "six hours" and as if in proviso (a) to Sub-section (7) of Section one thereof for "nine hours and a half" there were substituted "seven hours"; and

    (c) in proviso (a) to Sub-section (7) of Section one thereof the word "onsetter" shall be omitted.

    Provided that the Secretary of State may, in the case of persons employed on work which requires to be carried on continuously by day and night, allow them to be employed below ground for not more than eight hours during any consecutive twenty-four hours.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I beg to move, to leave out the words, "in its application to mines in which coal is worked."
    The object of this Amendment is to bring within the provisions of this amending Bill the workmen employed in certain mines who have not up to the present had the benefit of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, these mines being ironstone, shale, and fireclay mines. The miners employed in them naturally are anxious to have conferred also upon them the benefits which this amending Bill confers upon coal-miners. I do not see any reason why the miners employed in the class of mints I have named should be denied these benefits. The only reason which was given in Committee for not including them was that they had not been included in the Commission of Inquiry presided over by Mr. Justice Sankey. But although they were not included, these miners, at least in the case of the stratified ironstone and clay mines, have been paid the 2s. increase of wages awarded by the Sankey Commission, and in a number of cases they have, by agreement with the employers, had the benefit of the shorter working day conferred upon them. The only class of mines where the men have not received either the increase in wages or the redaction in working hours is the shale mines in the Lothians. These shale miners up to the present time have had the same working conditions as have been
    704
    enjoyed by the coal-miners. So anxious are they to have the benefits of the same conditions as apply to coal mines that they have sent a deputation to London to interview the Home Secretary with a view to being included in those benefits. Amongst other things that they pointed out was that the employers had always said, when they were asking for benefits which were not being obtained by the coal-miners during times when the shale-mining industry was in a more prosperous condition than the coal-mining industry, that they could not have conferred upon them benefits which were not enjoyed by the coal-miners, and consequently all their working arrangements have been in line with the working arrangements in the coal mines. Unless these men are included there will be a considerable amount of dissatisfaction amongst them. They are not a large body. I do not think it is a good thing for the Government, in introducing a measure of this kind, to exclude here and there small bodies of men who hitherto had conferred upon them all the benefits which were enjoyed by the larger body of miners in the coal mines. We moved a similar Amendment in Committee, and it was only defeat d by the casting vote of the Chairman. I hope it will have better luck to-night and that the Undersecretary will see his way to accept it.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am a little doubtful about this Amendment. The Bill before us proposes to amend the Coal Mines Acts, 1887 to 1914. I am not aware whether ironstone miners and shale miners come within the terms of any of those Acts. I have been looking up the Act of 1908, and they do not come within that Act.
    Mr. ADAMSON: That was a matter which was discussed in Committee, and after careful consideration the Chairman decided that the Amendment was in order. I may say that, in addition to the Coal Mines Act, 1908, there is the Coal Mines (Regulation) Act, 1911. I omitted to bring those two Acts with me. The Chairman of the Committee decided that the Amendment was in order.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Yes; but I do not know on what ground. If the Coal Mines Acts, 1887 to 1914, do deal with ironstone miners, then I think the Amendment would be in order, but if they are not included within those Acts, it would clearly go beyond the decision the House took upon the Second Reading.
    Mr. ADAMSON: Stratified ironstone, shale, and fireclay mines are included.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Major Baird): These mines are included in the Act of 1911. I regret that we cannot accept the Amendment, which has been proposed in such a conciliatory manner by the right hon. Gentleman. The reasons are very simple and clear. The right hon. Gentleman referred a little too briefly to the origin of this Bill. The Bill is for the purpose of giving effect to the recommendations of the Sankey Commission, which, by its terms of reference, was clearly confined to investigating the conditions in the coal industry. The Sankey Commission did not take any evidence with regard to these other forms of mining. Without going thoroughly and carefully into the economic conditions of those industries, and without agreement on the part of those concerned in those industries, we do not feel it is possible to include them in this Bill. I trust that the House will not expect me to enter into the matter at great length. The position is perfectly clear. These mines were not included in the terms of reference to the Sankey Commission, therefore we do not feel justified in including them in the Bill, which seeks to give effect to the conclusions of that Commission.
    Mr. CAPE: Ironstone miners always come within the provisions of the Act of 1911 so far as hours of work are concerned. I would remind the Under-Secretary that the miners in this particular locality are receiving one part of the Sankey award, namely, the 2s. a day granted to the coal-miners. I think I am right in stating that the ironstone mine-owners agreed with the ironstone miners in Cleveland that they would come under the reduction. of hours, and that on the 16th July they gave effect to those proposals. The Under-Secretary to the Home Office might inform the House whether or not some of the Government Departments have stepped in and prevented that arrangement from being carried out. I believe I am right in saying that for some days they worked those shorter hours by agreement with the employers. They are included in the Mines Act of 1911, and have always been looked upon as coming under the mines Acts. Seeing that they have received the Sankey award in regard to wages, and that the employers were prepared to agree with
    706
    them in regard to the hours, the Home Office ought to be prepared to accept the Amendment. They have come under the previous Acts, and there is no reason way they should not come under this new Act. The Act ought to be carried out in the letter and in the spirit, and all who come within the purview of the miners' Federation ought on this occasion to be included.
    Mr. T. WILSON: I would appeal to the Under-Secretary to consider more fully the Amendment. In a Bill of this kind you ought not to split hairs, and if it is possible to avoid industrial unrest in any trade by bringing men within the Bill let us do so. Do not let us give any opportunity for the men to say "the Government could have brought us in if they had cared, but they did not care; therefore, we will decide on certain lines of action." I am certain that, under the provisions of the Bill and under the title, some of these men can be brought in. If the Home Office cannot promise to do that now, let them give us a pledge that they will go more fully into the question, and if they find that the arguments in favour of the Amendment are sound, they will introduce Amendments in the Bill in another place.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt): It is quite impossible to bring within the provisions of this Bill to-night the men who work in the ironstone and shale mines.
    Mr. WILSON: The shale miners.
    11.0 P.M.
    Mr. SHORTT: The ironstone miners have just as good a claim as the shale miners. They are included within the 1908 Act. It is not a question of the Home Office not desiring to do it. It is a question of this being a Bill which is intended to carry out the recommendations of a certain Commission. Within the recommendations of that Commission these particular men are not included. Therefore, they are not really within the provisions of this Bill. That does not mean that the Home Office are not desirous to bring them within its provisions. They are. But their case not having been considered, and no evidence having been taken with regard to them, they cannot possibly be brought within the terms of this Bill.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: I regret very much the attitude of the Government on this Amendment. It is not sufficient to say

    707
    merely that the Sankey Report does not deal with these men. From the commencement the Miners' Federation of Great Britain made demands on behalf of these men, in precisely the same way as we put forward proposals all through the War. When we made application for a war wage allowance we made it on behalf of all members of the Federation, The same thing occurred in connection with these proposals, and when the Bill setting up the Commission was before the House it was with a view to having the miners' demands investigated—a six hours' day for these men as well as for the others. The Sankey award has been issued, and that part of the award relating to wages had to be applied to these men.
    Mr. SHORTT Mr. SHORTT dissented.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: It has been applied.
    Mr. SHORTT: Not under the award.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: That is what I am trying to put. The war wage that was awarded by the late Controller did not apply to these men under his award simply because they did not come under the coal control, but the Government said, "It is true you made an application for these men, and we shall now have to go to the Ministry of Munitions to get them to adopt the same award." In the same way our demand was made for these men in this case, and we understood, when the Commission was set up, that they were included, and there was no suggestion, until this Bill came on for discussion that they were excluded. We were then told by the Home Secretary that we ought to have raised the question on the terms of reference of the Commission. I suppose that we should have had a lawyer to advise us as to the language of the terms of reference. We certainly overlooked the wording of it. That is the only excuse we can offer for not expressing it. But, having regard to all that has taken place in our relations with these men, I do not think it possible for them to be left out of this measure and still have something like peace in the industry. I hope sincerely that the Home Secretary will undertake to give further consideration to this proposal with a view to seeing if he can deal with it at a later stage.
    Mr. SHORTT: The Act which was passed on 26th February this year dealt with the coal industry and the coal industry only.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: We understood all along that the Commission was set up to inquire into our demands. [An Hon. Member: "Demands?"]. I am not going to quibble about words—proposals if you like. We made our proposals. The Ministry of Labour agreed to set up a Commission of Inquiry. There was never any suggestion that these men were to be excluded from the terms of the Inquiry. The Home Secretary knows perfectly well, because we have met him as a deputation from the National Executive since, that that is the view we have taken all along. Of course, if he had said the same at any time in the past, in relation to the war wage or the Sankey Award, there would have been some justification. But no one has suggested that.
    Mr. FINNEY: In the district I have come from, all the years I have been associated with it, whatever has been done for the coal miners has been done for the stone miners as well, so we have got into the habit of thinking that anything in the form of legislation or wages award affected concurrently and equally the stone mines and the coal mines. I rather think that that may be some reason why we were rather led astray, or did not think at the time that it was possible for them to be excluded under the terms of reference. I have perfect faith in the good intentions of the Government, but unless good intentions are translated into concrete shape, the people who are immediately affected in the districts will not understand the reason that is put forward for their exclusion. I should feel somewhat reluctant to adjourn to-night and to go back to my district without feeling sure that this matter was going to be attended to. We have trouble enough in the districts already without having this small matter brought forward as an excuse for the exclusion of these workers from this particular measure. We are reasonable men, all of us, and we want to get through these difficult times with advantage not only to our own people, but to the country as a whole. This is a very serious matter. I hope we shall not adjourn to-night without an assurance from the Government that it will be attended to.
    Mr. R. M'LAREN: I think the whole cause of this difficulty has been due to the excessive hurry in connection with the Coal Commission. It is the fact that when the question of coal was raised the shale people felt so strongly on the matter that

    709
    they laid the case before the Royal Commission, and sent up a deputation of managers and other officials to London, but they were never asked to attend. They were of opinion that while it was quite true that the Act of 1908 included shale mines and other mines, that they ought not to be included in connection with the Coal Commission. I think they would have been able to show, if they had the chance, that if the seven hours were adopted they would have a grievance. It must be understood that they stand in a different position from the coal mines. Coal has been raised 6s. per ton, but the shale-miners get no benefit from that and, in fact, have got to pay that 6s., and they find that
    burden so great that there is a likelihood that those mines will suffer. While it is true that hitherto the mines came under the various Acts, I think it is quite clear that in this case it was entirely for the coal mines. I quite endorse what was said by the Home Secretary, and I do not think it could very well extend beyond the coal collieries. I hope, therefore, that the Government will stick to their decision unless they can bring the men in without injuring industry to the extent of stopping it.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 37.

    Division No. 88.]

    AYES.

    [11.14 p.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral

    Greame, Major P. Lloyd

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter)

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Green, A. (Derby)

    O'Neill, Captain Hon. Robert W. H.

    Amery, Lieut.-Col. L. C. M. S.

    Green, J. F. (Leicester)

    Palmer, Brig.-Gen. G. (Westbury)

    Atkey, A. R.

    Gregory, Holman

    Parker, James

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Gretton, Col. John

    Parry, Major Thomas Henry

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Griggs, Sir Peter

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Perring, William George

    Barker, Major R.

    Guinness, Lt.-Col. Hon. W.E. (B. St. E.)

    Philipps, Sir O. C. (Chester)

    Barnett, Captain Richard W.

    Hailwood, A.

    Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham)

    Pratt, John William

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Harris, Sir H. P. (Paddington, S.)

    Pulley, Charles Thornton

    Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth)

    Hennessy, Major G.

    Purchase, H. G.

    Bennett, T. J.

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Raw, Lieut.-Colonel Dr. N.

    Birchall, Major J. D.

    Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

    Blades, Sir George R.

    Hilder, Lieut.-Col. F.

    Robinson, T. (Stretford, Lancs.)

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Hills, Major J. W. (Durham)

    Roundell, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith.

    Hood, Joseph

    Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    Samuel, A. M. (Farnham, Surrey)

    Brackenbury, Col. H. L.

    Hopkins, J.W.W.

    Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney)

    Buchanan. Lieut.-Col. A. L. H.

    Honkinson, Austin (Mossley)

    Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

    Buckley, Lt.-Col. A.

    Home, Sir Robert (Hill head)

    Scott, A. M. (Glas., Bridgeton)

    Campion, Colonel W. R.

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Seager, Sir William

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Hudson, R. M.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Cockerill, Brig.-Gen. G. K.

    Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Inskip, T. W. H.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T., W.)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Jameson, Major J. G.

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Cope, Major W. (Glamorgan)

    Jesson, C.

    Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Courthope, Major George Loyd

    Jodrell, N. P.

    Stephenson, Colonel H, K.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Univ.)

    Johnson, L. S.

    Stewart, Gershom

    Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

    Johnstone, J.

    Sugden, W. H.

    Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, Mid.)

    Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Craig, Lt.-Com. N. (Isle of Thanet)

    Kerr-Smiley, Major P.

    Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Davies, Sir Joseph (Crews)

    King, Commander Douglas

    Terrell, G. (Chippenham, Wilts)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington)

    Law, A. J. (Rochdale)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Dawes, J. A.

    Law, Right Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow)

    Townley, Maximilan G.

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Lewis, T. A. (Pontypridd, Glam.)

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Edwards, A. Clement (East Ham, S.)

    Lort-Willlams, J.

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Vickers, D.

    Elliot, Capt. W. E. (Lanark)

    Malone, Col. C. L. (Leyton, E.)

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

    Eyres-Monsell, Commander

    Malone, Major P. (Tottenham, S.)

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wigan, Brigadier-General John Tyson

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Morden, Col. H. Grant

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Foxcroft, Captain C.

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Mosley, Oswald

    Wills, Lt.-Col Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Ganzoni, Captain F. C.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak)

    Goddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Basingstoke)

    Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. C (Aberdeen)

    Younger, Sir George

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Murray, Hon. G. (St. Rollox)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John.

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Capt.

    Glyn, Major R.

    Nall, Major Joseph

    F. Guest, and Lord E. Talbot.

    Goft, Sir R. Park

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Bowerman, Right Hon. C. W.

    Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham)

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Cape, Tom

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Bromfield, W.

    Carter, W. (Mansfield)

    Casey, T. W.

    Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian)

    Smith, W. (Wellingborough)

    Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Swan, J. E. C.

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Edwards, C. (Bedwellty)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Finney, Samuel

    Roberts, F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Williams, A. (Consett, Durham)

    Hartshorn, V.

    Sexton, James

    Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough)

    Holmes, J. S.

    Shaw, Tom (Preston)

    Young, Robert (Newton, Lancs.)

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. (Midlothian)

    Short, A. (Wednesbury)

    Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander

    Sitch, C. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Capt. A. (Nelson and Colne)

    T. Wilson and Mr. Griffiths.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Mr. ADAMSON: I beg to move, in paragraph (a), to leave oat the word "in" ["and as if in proviso"].
    This Amendment, although a small one, is one of a series of Amendments having for their object the securing for the firemen, pumpmen, deputies, and examiners the same hours as are secured for the other classes of underground workers in the terms of this amending Bill. The firemen, deputies, and examiners are a very responsible body of men. Frequently it has been stated—and I think with a great amount of truth—that the safety of the mines is in the hands of those men. Discharging responsible duties as they do, we strongly feel that these men should have as good conditions as any other section of the workmen who are provided for in the amending Bill under consideration. Personally; I see no good reason why they should not get the benefit of the shorter working day that has been conferred upon the others. More than half of these men already, under the existing law, enjoy the same working day as the other underground workers. Naturally the section of them that up till now have not had that benefit conferred on them are very much dissatisfied. The only reason I have heard adduced in the course of our discussions in the Committee stage, and in the course of the discussion we had during the consideration of a former Bill, has been that it was a wise arrangement for the firemen and deputies to be on duty during the whole period that the men on the particular shift were underground. I have had practical experience of nearly all classes of underground work, including the duties of firemen, and I have never been able to agree with that view. I have rather taken the view that the chief reason why the employers—because it is the employers largely who have put forward the plea that I have stated—have taken that attitude was that they might be able to use this argument for classes of work other than purely and simply the duties of looking after the safety of the men and the safety of the mine. I believe—and my colleagues who represent
    712
    these men share my view—that they can do their important duties of examination within the hours that have been conferred on the other sections of underground workers, and that there is, therefore, no necessity whatever of imposing upon them longer hours than the others. If their duties are as important as I and others think they are, they ought to have the same conditions conferred upon them as any other section of the workmen. In Committee we were unsuccessful in convincing the Under-Secretary of the necessity of this Amendment. I hope we shall be more successful now. The section of the men affected feel very much the distinction that is being made.
    Major BAIRD: The object of this Bill, I am afraid I must repeat, is to carry out the recommendations of the Sankey Commission. The Amendment would go contrary to the recommendation of that Commission. In the last sentence of the first four of the Committee's Report it is recommended that
    "Certain adjustments must be made in the hours of the classes of the underground workers specifically mentioned in the Act."
    That is the Act of 1908. Surely if the Commission had decided that the hours of these classes of underground workers could be assimilated to the hours of the hewers covered by the seven hours' proposal, it is only fair to assume that the Commission would have said so, and there would have been no further difficulty. As a matter of fact there has been a great difficulty in making the adjustments which the Commission recommended. The men referred to in the Act of 1903 are firemen, examiners, deputies, on-setters, pump-winders, fanmen, and furnacemen. The 1908 Act provides that
    "they shall be underground for not more than nine and a half hours,"
    that is compared with the eight hours of the, hewers. That difference of an hour and a half has been due to the fact that the firemen and deputies have to arrive within a couple of hours before the shift commences work to examine the mine, and they have to supervise the shift while

    713
    underground; consequently they have to be a longer time in the mine than the rest of the shift. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to numbers of firemen—to take only one class of the men affected—who work the same hours as the hewers. There may be certain exceptions, but surely the rule is that the deputies and firemen have to be down the pit before the men in the shift, and, although they do not work in many cases the nine and a half hours or anything like it—that is the maximum time provided in the Act of 1908 —I believe I am right in saying that in the vast majority of cases they do work for a longer period than the ordinary men in the shift.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I stated that more than half the men, under the existing arrangement, are working exactly the same hours as the miners.
    Major BAIRD: That point, no doubt, was put to the Sankey Commission. They went very exhaustively into this question, and there is their Report, which does not say that the hours should be the same. It retains these distinctions and leaves the hours to be fixed by adjustment. With a view to arriving at an adjustment, because the Act of 1908 provided for nine and a half hours and some difference had to be made in view of the reduction to seven hours for the hewers, we endeavoured to reach an agreement between the mine-owners and the miners; but it proved to be impossible to come to an agreement. We, therefore, had to have recourse to the technical experts of the Home Office, who are of opinion that eight hours is the period which will enable these special categories of men to carry out their very responsible duties of securing the safety of the mine and of the miners, and, at the same time, provide a considerable reduction in the number of hours previously worked—a reduction, indeed, larger than the reduction which the hewers will enjoy, because it is a reduction from nine and a half to eight, as compared with a reduction from eight to seven. It is a very difficult and technical question. In the position in which we found ourselves we felt the only thing to do was to refer the matter to experts, who could not possibly be supposed to take one side or the other, either that of the mine-owners or that of the Miners, but whose sole interest obviously is to ensure that the arrangements shall be such as to secure the safety of the men at work. The categories of men are very
    714
    important and responsible. Their work is equally important, and I hope that the House will agree with the arrangement proposed in the Bill, which has the sanction of the technical experts of the Home Office, as being a wise one.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: I do not quite understand what the Under-Secretary means when he says that the technical experts at the Home Office agree in regard to this point. The chief technical expert in mining at the Home Office was prepared to agree when we tried to negotiate in regard to seven hours and one winding, which is very different to the terms of this Bill. Any number of hon. Members on all sorts of occasions are ready to declare that nothing stands between this country and revolution, but the moral authority of this House, that labour questions must be settled, and that direct action must be destroyed, but nothing goes through this House by argument or reason. We should not have had this Bill at all but for the threat of a direct strike. There is nothing creates unrest and discontent so much among the workers as the existence of anomalies, and wherever you have an anomaly, wherever you have amongst a large body of men even a small section of them who do not enjoy the advantages that apply to the majority that is always a running sore. In this case you have a small number of men and there is no earthly reason why they should not receive precisely the same conditions as all the other workmen. [An Hon. MEMBER: "What about the safety of the mines!"] That question does not come in at all here.
    As my right hon. Friend (Mr. Adamson) has already stated, more than half the examiners are already working the same hours as the miners, and they will continue to do so. The same thing is true of the pump-men and the fan-men. They are already working the same hours and will continue to do so even if this Bill does not provide for it. The Federation will say, "Very well, you ask for those hours and we will back you." Why should we be called upon to settle the matter in that way when no reason can be assigned why they should be treated differently to the others. I should be pleased to see this House do something towards settling paltry differences of this sort without forcing us to the old method of direct action. This policy is simply making the miners believe that it is useless coming to this House at all because unless they have numbers large enough in the Division

    715
    Lobby they are helpless. I do not know whether it is any use making an appeal to the Government upon this point.
    Mr. CASEY: I should like to appeal to the Under-Secretary to the Home Office to reconsider this matter. I was very much surprised to hear him state that the deputies, firemen, and pump men worked longer than one shift. So far as Yorkshire is concerned, deputies and firemen work the same number of hours as the miners. You have, to remember that the majority of the coal-miners in this country work in two or three shifts. There are very few men in this country who only work a single shift. There are two or three daily, and one shift relieves the other; therefore, there is no necessity for the deputy or the fireman to go on duty two or three hours before the shift commences. It is simply because of their arduous undertaking and of the dangerous character of their work which everybody recognises that this reduction of hours is conceded as a matter of common justice. It is looked upon as absolutely essential. The considerations in this regard, so far as the ordinary miners are concerned, apply equally and with just as much force to the deputies and firemen, whose labours are equally as arduous, dangerous, and responsible. During the whole of his shift he will have to travel a number of miles to examine the coal face, visiting the men in their stalls and working places, and going from place to place in a crouched attitude, and surely therefore the deputy or the fireman is entitled to a reduction of hours just as much as any other mine-worker.
    Let me mention another fact in regard to the pumpmen and the fanmen. The right hon. Gentleman said just now it was time that an end was put to those anomalies in the coal industry. Here you have under this Bill the mechanic, the engineer, the electrician, and the coal getter given a seven-hour shift, but the man in charge of the pumping, the man with the heavier responsibility, is to be compelled to work eight hours. He may be working alongside a haulage-engine, the size of which may be comparatively small and of less horse-power than his own engine; his work entails greater responsibility, requires greater skill, and more technical knowledge, yet because he pumps or fans he is to be compelled under this Bill to work eight hours. I say that that difference ought not to exist; there
    716
    ought not to be this differentiation between these men. We have not a single man on the surface who is working more than eight hours to a shift—who is working more than forty-six and a half hours per week—and that is on the Sankey award. Here, under this Bill, where a man is working underground, where the atmosphere cannot possibly be like it is on the surface, where there is danger and risk to life and limb, you are going to compel him to work longer hours than the man who is working on the surface. Is that reasonable? On the surface under the Sankey award we have obtained the forty-six and a half hours week—the pump man and the fan man get it—and yet we are told under the Bill a man following the same occupation underground is compelled to work a forty-eight hours week. That is not quite fair. One of the difficulties we are up against is that we cannot possibly get the Government to recognise that this question affects one particular and large industry. The whole of the men working in the same industry should be treated on a national basis. We have got it on the surface under the Sankey award. We have the surface labour treated on a national basis. Every colliery in England, Scotland, and Wales will come under the forty-six and a half hours week, yet under this Bill we are simply going not to have a national basis. It is said the pump men work nine and a half hours under the Act of 1908. What was the evidence given before that Act was introduced? The evidence of the employers was that they could not work the pits successfully, they could not keep them secure and safe unless these men worked nine and a half hours. Nevertheless, for a number of years we have been able by negotiation to get their hours brought down to eight, and surely if the Sankey award states, as it does, that there should be some adjustment in regard to the hours of these men, where does the adjustment come in if they are working eight hours now, before the application of the Bill, and to compel them to work eight hours, where does the arrangement come in at all? Therefore, in justice to these men, to do away altogether with the anomalies that exist, it is only reasonable, fair, and proper that we should ask the Government to reconsider the matter, because it will simply create further irritation, and we shall simply have futher trouble. Surely

    717
    we ought to let the men feel that the Government wants to treat them fairly and honestly, and without any differentiation whatever, and I hope the Government will reconsider the matter. Under the munitions award a small section of men were given an increase of 12½ per cent., and immediately that was done all the other grades of the industry clamoured for the same rights, and you had no satisfaction until every man in the engineering industry was conceded that 12½ per cent. The same will obtain here. The men will feel that they have not been treated rightly unless they are given under the terms of the Bill the same treatment as the miners and the rest of the underground men, and I hope the Government will review the matter and see whether it is not possible to meet their case.
    Mr. HOPKINSON: I wish to contest what has just been said by the hon. Member. It is perfectly ludicrous for hon. Members to seek to take advantage of the ignorance of this House in regard to mining matters and as to the nature especially of the work of the pumping men and the fan men. Of course, the vast majority of hon. Members have never been down a pit. It is not fair to compare a pump man or a fan man with a hauling-engine man. The haulage man, in many cases, is very hard-worked, and he is just as much entitled to the benefit of shorter hours as the hewer. I hope the House will not be led away by things of this sort. Anybody who has been in a pit half a dozen times has had enough experience to know how ridiculous it is to compare the labour of the pump man and the fan man with that of the haulage man. I hope the Undersecretary will continue to resist the Amendment. I have been very much impressed with the attitude of some of my hon. Friends. They seem to be under the impression that the Government have no idea but to carry out the recommendations of the Sankey Commission. The truth of the matter is this. Both the Government and the country are realising that we have got into a dreadful mess by interfering with things we do not understand; but we are committed to certain things and we must carry out the promise to give effect to the Sankey award. But we are certainly not going to land ourselves in further difficulties by agreeing to other alterations. I am convinced that the Government
    718
    has taken the right line in adhering to the terms of the Sankey award, and it would be impolitic and unfair to the men themselves to go outside the agreement.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: The idea in some quarters seems to be that we are asking the Government to agree to something that is unfair. May I give the experience in my own county of Durham. There the men do not work for more than seven and a half hours in any shift, yet under this Bill certain classes are now to be asked to put in eight-hour shifts. In my county we have three shifts a day in actual practice, so that no one works more than eight hours, and yet the work is carried on in perfect safety. No one will declare that Durham has been worse managed than any other part of the coalfield. The Durham production per man, as revealed by the much-reviled Sankey Report, is more than in any other part of the coalfield, and yet these deputies only work the same hours as the hewers. In my early experience the coal-hewer actuaally worked in the pit an hour per day more than the deputy.
    The effect of what you are proposing would in our part of the country mean an increase in the working hours of the deputies of from half an hour to three quarters of an hour. Under the present arrangement of equal working hours no mishap has occurred in Durham, and it has been proved that it is as well managed as any other part of the coal field, and what is done in Durham can be done in other parts of the country. I do not see any reason for the proposal in this Bill. The deputy is the responsible man, and if you want an output of coal commensurate with the country's needs you will consider the claims of these men. The Home Secretary knows as well as I do the conditions, having had them placed before him so often, in my own county, and he must know that what has been done in Durham can be done elsewhere. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.
    Mr. SHORTT: There is a great deal of misapprehension. The provision of the Bill is that the hours which were originally fixed, as a maximum and not as a minimum, nine and a half hours, should be reduced to eight hours. Let me at once clear up what was said by my hon. Friend (Mr. Hartshorn). It is very unsatisfactory to mention names of officials who advise

    719
    Members of the Government; but as Sir Richard Redmayne's name was mentioned, let me say that the hon. Member is quite mistaken in supposing that the provision in this Bill is not that which Sir Richard Redmayne thinks is correct. He is quite mistaken in supposing that Sir Richard Redmayne ever suggested that it should be a seven hours winding.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Is it not a fact that Sir Richard Redmayne, when it was put to him that if the owners had agreed to seven hours in one winding, he said he would have regarded that as a satisfactory solution. Did he not agree to that in your presence, and because the owners did not agree you put eight hours in the Bill?
    Mr. SHORTT: Nothing of the sort. What he did say was that seven hours in a winding, if both sides agreed upon it, could be done, but he never agreed for a moment that there should be a prohibition against any men where it was necessary to work more than seven hours at a winding. My hon. Friend put as one of his strongest arguments that at 50 per cent. of the pits in this country seven hours was all they were working. That involves this argument that 50 per cent. are working more.
    12.0 M.
    This provision does not say that everybody has to work eight hours. How my hon. Friend can have read the Bill in that way I cannot understand. My hon. Friend behind me said that every man was obliged to work eight hours. Nothing of the sort. What the Bill says is that whereas before he was allowed to work nine and a-half hours he now is not allowed to work more than eight, but it does not follow that he is bound to work eight. If in any particular mine they can arrange to work seven or seven and a-half hours, there is nothing to prevent them doing so. There is the provision that in those particular 50 per cent. of the cases to which my hon. Friend by inference referred, where seven hours and a winding will not do to restore the legal right, where it is necessary, to work the full eight.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: It is not right to say in those 50 per cent. collieries where they now work the same hours as the miners under this Bill they would be required to work an hour longer than the
    720
    miners—that is to say, where the hours were reduced to eight before and remain eight.
    Mr. SHORTT: It is getting late, and I cannot go any further into this. There is no such provision. The fixing of a minimum by a law which says that you must not work more than eight or nine hours is not a provision that you must work the eight or nine hours. Surely my hon. Friend can understand the difference between fixing a maximum beyond which you must not go and fixing a minimum below which you must not go. There is no minimum fixed in this Bill. It is a maximum. All the Bill says is that you must not work more than eight hours. It nowhere says that you must work the eight hours. It is purely a matter of arrangement in each individual mine. May I remind my hon. Friends opposite that this is a Bill to carry out the recommendations of the Sankey Commission. They are seeking to go behind those recommendations, to put into this Bill something which is not contained in the Sankey recommendations, and which is contrary to those recommendations. Do not let them forget that the time may come when the Government may have to do the same, and when that time does come we shall have to remind them that they cannot blame us for seeking to go behind the Sankey recommendations, as they have tried to do the same themselves.
    Mr. HOLMES: The finding of the Sankey Report was that the conditions under which miners work are different from those of other people, that they work in darkness the whole day, continuously with but a short rest for meals, and that they work amid dirt and dust, and in many cases exposed to the dangers of bad gases. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] That is agreed. The Government have accepted it. Surely we should be logical and say, as we have all agreed, that all the men who work underground should be treated in the same way, and should work for the same time. That is the point here—that the deputies and these other men in responsible positions are being asked to work longer than the miners. To say that it is a matter of danger to raise that question is to throw dust in the people's eyes. The mines will be attended to. The danger will be averted. It is purely a matter of convenience, and these deputies have the

    721
    right to ask for the same hours as the miners, because the conditions under which they work are the same.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I beg to move, to leave out the words
    "Provided that the Secretary of State may, in the case of persons employed on work which requires to be carried on continuously by day and night, allow them to be employed below ground for not more than eight hours during any consecutive twenty-four hours."
    The provision contained in the words I seek to delete gives the Home Secretary powers which are not contained in any existing mining legislation. The Home Secretary twitted us with asking something in the last Amendment which was
    Question put, "That the word 'in' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 127, Noes, 27.

    Division No. 89

    AYES.

    [12.5 a.m.

    Adair, Rear-Admiral

    Greame, Major P. Lloyd

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter)

    Amery, Lieut.-Col. L. C. M. S.

    Green, A. (Derby)

    O'Neill, Capt. Hon. Robert W. H.

    Atkey, A. R.

    Green, J. F. (Leicester)

    Palmer, Brig.-Gen. G. (Westbury)

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Guinness, Lt.-Col. Hon. W. E. (B. St. E.)

    Parker, James

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Hailwood, A.

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham)

    Perring, William George

    Barker, Major R.

    Harris, Sir H. P. (Paddington, S.)

    Philipps, Sir O. C. (Chester)

    Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

    Hennessy, Major G.

    Pratt, John William

    Barnett, Major Richard W.

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Pulley, Charles Thornton

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Hilder, Lieut.-Col. F.

    Purchase, H. G.

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Hood, Joseph

    Raw, Lieut.-Colonel Dr. N.

    Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth)

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    Roundell, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.

    Bennett, T. J.

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. (Midlothian)

    Rutherford, Sir W. W. (Edge Hill)

    Birchall, Major J. D.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney)

    Blades, Sir George R.

    Hopkinson, Austin (Mossley)

    Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Howard, Major S. G.

    Scott, A. M. (Glas., Bridgeton)

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith.

    Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Seager, Sir William

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Inskip, T. W. H.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Brackenbury, Captain H. L.

    Jameson, Major J. G.

    Seely, Maj.-Gen. Rt. Hon. John

    Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham)

    Jodrell, N. P.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Col. A. L. H.

    Johnson, L. S.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T., W)

    Buckley, Lt.-Col. A.

    Johnstone, J.

    Spret, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Campion, Colonel W. R.

    Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

    Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Kerr-Smiley, Major P.

    Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

    Cockerill, Brig,-Gen. G. K.

    King, Commander Douglas

    Stewart, Gershom

    Colfox, Major W. P.

    Law, A. J. (Rochdale)

    Sugden, W. H.

    Cope, Major W. (Glamorgan)

    Law, Right Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow)

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Courthope, Major George Loyd

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, Mid.)

    Lort-Williams, J.

    Terrell, G. (Chippenham, Wilts)

    Craig, Lt.-Com. N. (Isle of Thanet)

    Loseby, Captain C E.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Davies, Sir Joseph (Crewe)

    M'Laren, R. (Lanark, N.)

    Townley, Maximlian G.

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Mallalieu, Frederick William

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Elliot, Capt. W. E. (Lanark)

    Malone, Col. C. L. (Leyton, E.)

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Eyres-Monsell, Commander

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Vickers, D.

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Morden, Col. H. Grant

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Watson, Captain John Bertrand

    Foxcroft, Captain C.

    Mosley, Oswald

    Wigan, Brigadier-General John Tyson

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Mount, William Arthur

    Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

    Garzoni, Captain F. C.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Basingstoke)

    Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. a. C (Aberdeen)

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Murray, Hon. G. (St. Rollox)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John.

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord E.

    Glyn, Major R.

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Talbot and Captain F. Guest.

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

    Shaw, Tom (Preston)

    Bowerman, Right Hon. C. W.

    Finney, Samuel

    Short, A. (Wednesbury)

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Hartshorn, V.

    Smith, W. (Wellingborough)

    Bromfield, W.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Swan, J. E. C.

    Cape, Tom

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Carter, W. (Mansfield)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Casey, T. W.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, A. (Consett, Dunham)

    Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton)

    Dawes, J. A.

    Roberts, F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

    Edwards, C. (Bedwelty)

    Sexton, James

    Tyson Wilson and Mr. T. Griffiths.

    not contained in the Sankey Report. In this part of his amending Bill he is asking for wider powers than are either contained in the Sankey Report or in existing mining legislation. Consequently, he has fallen into exactly the same trap as that which he blamed us with having fallen into a few moments ago. But in asking for these wider powers he is asking for something which I really think he does not even require for the object which evidently he has in view. The existing law, in my opinion, gives him all the powers that it

    723
    is necessary for him to have, without the proviso which I am seeking to delete. The existing law reads as follows:
    "Nor small any contravention of the foregoing provisions be deemed to take place in the case of any workman who is below ground for the purpose of rendering assistance in the event of accident, or for meeting any danger or apprehended danger, or for dealing with any emergency or work uncompleted through unforeseen circumstances which requires to be dealt with without interruption."
    Surely in these words there is sufficient power to give to the Secretary of State all that he wants without including the proviso which my Amendment seeks to delete. I hope, therefore, that being the position, that the Under-Secretary of State will have no difficulty in meeting us on this point. If he has paid attention to the law which I have just quoted he will be bound to admit that it gives him all the powers that are necessary in cases of emergency, but even supposing the existing law did not give him those powers, I want to say quite frankly to him—and I think my statement will be borne out by the practical experience of my mining colleagues on these benches—that I have never known a single instance in which an emergency has arisen in a mine when either the owner of the mine, the inspector of mines, or the Secretary of State has had any difficulty in getting the necessary number of men to go down and to undertake the emergency work. Knowing the miners as I do, I have no hesitation in saying that in the future he will have as little difficulty, if the existing law does not give him all the power that he wants, but in my view the existing law does give him all those powers, and there is no necessity for him going beyond the Sankey Report and the existing law.
    Major BAIRD: The point made by the right hon. Gentleman has been very carefully examined since the Committee stage, namely, whether the existing provision of the Act of 1908 does not provide adequately for the point with which this proviso deals, and we are informed that it does not meet the point completely, because it might not be held that some of the cases contemplated come within the scope of emergencies. The House will recollect that the object of this proviso is to ensure that it is possible to have men working continuously by a system of eight-hour shifts in special cases. That would be impossible under the Bill as it stands, because no man is allowed to work more than seven hours at a time.
    724
    The eases contemplated can be defined, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Adamson) will consider we have met the point if we insert an Amendment which I shall now read. We agree that the proviso as it stands is perhaps wider than is necessary, and we want nothing more than is absolutely necessary to secure the point. Therefore, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider accepting these words: After the word "work" in the proviso sought to be deleted, to insert the words "of sinking a pit, driving a cross measure drift, or boring or driving against gas or water in old workings." That defines four distinct emergencies for which we desire to have the faculty of employing men for eight hours. The proviso already provides that the sanction of the Secretary of State is necessary, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will feel that we have met the point that he has raised.
    Mr. LUNN: Can the hon. Gentleman give any instance where men have even worked the same number of hours as the men on the face, never mind seeking to provide, as in your Amendment, that they should work longer hours? They always work shorter hours.
    Major BAIRD: The Act of 1908 specifically provides that men may work two shifts of six hours each in the twenty-four hours instead of one shift of eight hours. It provides, therefore, for men working twelve hours in the twenty-four. We seek to provide that the same faculty as exists under the present Act of employing men for eight hours in the twenty-four in these special circumstances shall continue.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: I should like to know what the Home Secretary has to say now, after the sermon he gave us some time ago about sticking to the Sankey award. The Sankey recommendation is that seven hours be substituted for eight. Where, in the Sankey Award, does the right hon. Gentleman get any recommendation, or suggestion, that this shall be made into eight hours?
    Mr. SHORTT: This does not substitute eight for seven It reduces twelve to eight.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: I know it does not, but does my right hon. Friend mean to suggest that men in sinking pits can work twelve hours a day?
    Mr. SHORTT: They can do.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: They work six hours a day. I believe the Act, as it stands to-day, provides that men driving these cross-measures and headings can do that.
    Mr. SHORTT: The Act as it stands at present, the present law, allows that men may work in any twenty-four hours' two shifts of six hours; that is twelve hours. This Act provides for their working eight. If they would rather work twelve, we will withdraw this.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: If that is the sort of interpretation the Home Secretary desires to put upon, the Sankey award, all I can say is, that he cannot find it within the covers of the award. We are quite content with the law as it stands. We would rather have the Act as it stands. We do not want any amendment. The right hon. Gentleman is not entitled to embody any such Amendment in this Bill if this Bill is merely carrying out the Sankey recommendations. I know it is useless talking here. I do not care whether you put it in or you keep it out; we simply will not work it. What I do mean to say to the Home Secretary is this—and I want the Home Secretary to realise what he is doing to-day—he is trying to get into the Act a provision under which men can work, eight, ten, or a dozen hours in the case of emergency. If we find that this attempt on the part of the Home Secretary to get those additional powers under this Bill, we shall simply give instructions to our men, and urge them not to work in any emergency at all more than seven hours. That is what the right hon. Gentleman is bringing us to. We will certainly carry it into effect if the House will not accept the advice of the miners representatives.
    Mr. INSKIP: The hon. Member (Mr. Hartshorn) appears to regard any suggestion which he makes as so conclusively reasonable that it ought to be accepted by this House, otherwise the miners will not carry out the provisions of the Act. It is a lamentable exhibition. He assumes that it is quite useless to use any argument in this House, and he therefore proposes to resort to the argument of brute force. The hon. Member a few minutes ago suggested that his party had made a mistake in not employing a lawyer. If he will consult a lawyer now he will find that the Clause really protects the miner.
    Mr. ADAMSON: The Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friends and myself is for the deletion of five lines in this Bill. The hon. Member who has just addressed the House has told us that this proviso is designed to protect the miner. As representing the miners, I can say that we are not anxious to have that protection. Up to the present we have not secured its withdrawal. If we take the Under-Secretary's Amendment, what it means is that it will give to the men in the sinking shaft an eight-hours day and to the men who are driving a cross-measure an eight-hours day.
    Mr. SHORTT: Instead of a twelve-hours day.
    Mr. ADAMSON: These men have got a. seven-hours day now. We desire the deletion of the proviso on two grounds, one of them the ground which you have exalted to such a high degree yourself to-night, that it is not contained in the Sankey Report, and the other that it is intended to enforce the existing law. While I should have liked to shorten the discussion as much as possible, and also to accept the offer of the Under-Secretary, it is of such a character that frankly I cannot do so. It would tie bodies of workmen who are not tied now.
    Mr. SHORTT: I can assure my right hon. Friend that he is quite mistaken in supposing that this provision adds one single hour to the work of any man working in the mines.
    Mr. ADAMSON: The Amendment offered—
    Mr. SHORTT: The Amendment offered only shows the limits by defining what is in the Bill. As the law stands, any man is entitled to work two shifts each of six hours in the twenty-four. That is twelve. He may work two of five in the twenty-four—that is, ten—but this provision prevents him working more than eight. He may work two of four, or one of five and one of three, but the total is only eight in the twenty-four. The provision in the Bill says that in the case of persons employed on work which requires to be carried on continuously by day and night they may be employed below ground for not more than eight hours during any consecutive twenty-four.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman—
    Mr. SHORTT: It is too late to give way. Because we seek to reduce the period to eight hours hon. Members who do not appreciate what the Bill means are too proud to give way and acknowledge that they have made a mistake. They would sacrifice their own people and prevent twelve being reduced to eight. We must stick to the Bill as it stands.
    Mr. T. WILSON: We may have failed to realise what these lines mean, but men may be called upon to work eight hours right ahead. Under the existing law they can only be called upon to work a six hours' shift.
    Mr. SHORTT: They can only be if they agree; they cannot be forced.
    Mr. WILSON: Then why put it in the Bill?
    Mr. SHORTT: Because it allows them.
    Mr. WILSON: Then to meet the wishes of those who represent the miners, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman accept the Amendment. If industrial trouble arises, do not ask the representatives of Labour to come to your assistance.
    Mr. SHORTT: Do not threaten me!
    Mr. R. M'LAREN: I think it is a pity that the miners' representatives have not accepted this Clause. It appears to me that the whole purpose is that there should be no time lost during the whole twenty-four hours. In the case of development it is
    necessary to work the whole twenty-four hours, because without development there can be no increased output. I would like to ask the Home Secretary if he would not put a little more into the Bill. A crosscutting measure is entirely different from driving in the coal, and I think that ought to be in as well. In these circumstances I think the miners are getting a great benefit and that they will do wrong not to accept it. I trust the Home Secretary will stick to the provision and allow us to pass it.
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDS: There is no provision in the Sankey award that I am aware of for working longer hours for development, so that this is entirely new. If you want to deal with emergencies, it is foolish in the extreme to talk about the Home Secretary giving orders, because a case of emergency has to be decided on the spot, and you cannot give orders from here in cases of that sort. Suppose you had a man buried under a fall. Must they get orders from you to work even eight hours? There is no sense and no reason in the thing. You cannot give orders in a case of emergency; it must be settled there; and there is no provision in the Sankey award for working longer hours for development, so that you are going back upon that entirely.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'may' ['the Secretary of State may'.], stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 107; Noes, 26.

    Division No. 90.]

    AYES.

    [12.41 a.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

    Adair, Rear-Admiral

    Elliot, Capt. W. E. (Lanark)

    Law, A. J. (Rochdale)

    Amery, Lieut.-Col. L. C. M. S.

    Eyres-Monsell, Commander

    Law, Right Hon. A. Bonar (Glasgow)

    Atkey, A. R.

    Farquharson, Major A. C.

    Lindsay, William Arthur

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Lort-Williams, J.

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Foxcroft, Captain C.

    Loseby, Captain C. E.

    Barker, Major R.

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    M'Laren, R. (Lanark, N.)

    Barnett, Major Richard W.

    Ganzoni, Captain F. C.

    Mallalieu, Frederick William

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

    Malone, Col. C. L. (Leyton, E.)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. C. T.

    Bennett, T. J.

    Green, J. F. (Leicester)

    Morden, Col. H. Grant

    Blades, Sir George R.

    Gregory, Holman

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Borwick, Major G. O.

    Hailwood, A.

    Mosley, Oswald

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith.

    Hamilton, Major C. G. C. (Altrincham)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Hennessy, Major G.

    Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

    Brackenbury, Captain H. L.

    Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

    Murray, Hon. G. (St. Rollox)

    Broad, Thomas Tucker

    Hilder, Lieut.-Col. F.

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Brown, Captain D. C. (Hexham)

    Hood, Joseph

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. (Exeter)

    Buchanan, Lieut.-Col. A. L. H.

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    O'Neill, Captain Hon. Robert W. H.

    Buckley, Lt.-Col. A.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Palmer, Brig.-Gen. G. (Wastbury)

    Campion, Colonel W. R.

    Hopkinson, Austin (Mossley)

    Parker, James

    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

    Hunter, Gen. Sir A. (Lancaster)

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Cockerill, Brig.-Gen. G. K.

    Inskip, T. W. H.

    Perring, William George

    Cope, Major W. (Glamorgan)

    Jameson, Major J. G.

    Philipps, Sir O. C. (Chester)

    Courthope, Major George Loyd

    Jodrell, N. P.

    Pulley, Charles Thornton

    Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, Mid.)

    Johnson, L. S.

    Purchase, H. G.

    Davies, Sir Joseph (Crewe)

    Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

    Raw, Lieut.-Colonel Dr. N.

    Robinson, T. (Stretford, Lancs.)

    Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

    Tryon, Major George Clement

    Roundell, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.

    Stanley, Colonel Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney)

    Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

    Vickers, D.

    Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

    Stewart, Gershom

    Wigan, Brigadier-General John Tyson

    Scott, A. M. (Glas., Bridgeton)

    Sugden, W. H.

    Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

    Seager, Sir William

    Sutherland, Sir William

    Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.

    Seddon, J. A.

    Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Seely, Maj.-Gen. Rt. Hon. John

    Terrell, G. (Chippenham, Wilts)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Capt.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    F. Guest and Lord E. Talbot.

    Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T., W.)

    Townley, Maximilan G.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hartshorn, V.

    Shaw, Tom (Preston)

    Bowerman, Right Hon. C. W.

    Holmes, J. S.

    Smith, W. (Wellingborough)

    Bromfield, W.

    Johnstone, J.

    Swan, J. E. C.

    Cape, Tom

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

    Carter, W. (Mansfield)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Casey, T. W.

    Murray, William (Dumfries)

    Williams, A. (Consett, Durham)

    Davies, Alfred (Clitheroe)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Dawes, J. A.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton)

    Edwards, C. (Bedwellty)

    Roberts, F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

    Finney, Samuel

    Sexton, James

    Tyson Wilson and Mr. T. Griffiths.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Mr. ADAMSON: I beg to move, after the word "State" ["the Secretary of State may"], to insert the words "after consultation with the workmen affected or their representatives."
    The object of this Amendment—
    Mr. SHORTT: I accept this.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

  WAR PENSIONS—ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS:
  [REMUNERATION AND EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee.
  Resolved,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of remuneration to the members of pensions appeal tribunals constituted under any Act of the present Session, to make further provision for the administration of the enactments relating to Naval, Military, and Air Force war pensions, grants, and allowances, and of any expenses which may be incurred by a tribunal under such Act."—[Sir James Craig.]
  Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Friday).

  WELSH CHURCH—TEMPORALITIES [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee.
  Resolved,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament,
  730
  of the sum of one million pounds to the Welsh Commissioners under any Act of the present Session to continue in office the Welsh Commissioners appointed under the Welsh Church Act, 1914, to postpone the date of Disestablishment, and to make further provision with respect to the temporalities of and marriages in the Church in Wales."—[Mr. Shortt.]
  Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Friday).

  FORESTRY [EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee.
  Resolved,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of a Sum not exceeding three million five-hundred thousand pounds into a forestry Fund, constituted under any Act of the present Session for establishing a Forestry Commission for the United Kingdom, and promoting afforestation, and the production and supply of timber therein."—[Sir Arthur Boscawen.]
  Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Friday).

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (IRELAND) BILL.
  Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry): I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
  It may be convenient to the House to say a word or two with reference to these Amendments. As far as the Government are concerned, we propose to agree with all the Amendments. Although there are a good many of them, they nearly all have been inserted with a view

  731
  to bringing the Irish Bill into line with the English Bill, many of them being drafting Amendments for the purpose of having the two Bills as much alike as possible, There are only six Amendments that are not Government Amendments, and those six were agreed to by both sides. The principal Amendment is an Amendment that was brought forward for the purpose of exempting from the purview of the Bill land in the nature of a park or pleasure ground or garden. That is the form of the legislation in England under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1909, and it was insisted that the limitation of that English Act should be applied so far as Ireland is concerned; but we only agreed to the exemption, which was adopted in another place, on condition that these words were added—"if suitable sites cannot be obtained on other land." That limits the power. The other Amendments are, as I say, largely drafting Amendments.
  SUPPLY—[6th AUGUST].

  NAVAL, MILITARY, AND AIR FORCES
  (GRANTS TO OFFICERS).
  Resolution reported,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £585,000, be granted to His Majesty, to be issued to those officers who commanded and directed His forces by sea, on land, and in the air, in recognition of their eminent service during the late War, namely:

  £

  Navy—

  Admiral of the Fleet Sir David Beatty

  100,000

  Admiral of the Fleet Viscount Jellicoe

  50,000

  Admiral Sir Charles E. Madden

  10,000

  Admiral Sir F. C. Doveton Sturdee

  10,000

  Rear-Admiral Sir Roger, J. B. Keyes

  10,000

  Vice-Admiral Sir John de Robeck

  10,000

  Commodore Sir Reginald Y. Tyrwhitt

  10,000

  Army—

  Field-Marshal Sir Douglas Haig

  100,000

  Field-Marshal Viscount French

  50,000

  Field-Marshal Sir Edmund Allenby

  50,000

  Field-Marshal Sir Herbert Plumer

  30,000

  Field-Marshal Sir Henry Wilson

  10,000

  General Sir Henry Rawlinson

  30,000

  General the Hon. Sir Julian Byng

  30,000

  General Sir Henry Horne

  30,000

  General Sir William Robertson

  10,000

  General Sir William Birdwood

  10,000

  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Maurice Hankey

  25,000

  £

  Air—

  Air Vice-Marshal Sir Hugh Trenchard

  10,000."

  WAYS AND MEANS [6TH AUGUST].
  Resolution reported;
  "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1920, the sum of £585,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Ordered,
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill that they have power to make provision therein pursuant to the said Resolution."

  WAR PENSIONS (ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [MR. WHITLEY in the chair.]
  Clauses 1 (Administration of Pensions, etc., under Injuries in War (Compensation) Acts), 2 (Information from Employers), and 3 Extension of Power to Pay Pensions in Advance) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  WAR PENSIONS (ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS) BILL.

    Clause 4.—(Further Provision as to Audit of Accounts of Committee.)
    Regulations made by the Minister under paragraph (f) of Sub-section (1) of Section five of the War Pensions (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1918, may apply, with the necessary modifications, to any of the provisions of the Third Schedule to the National Health Insurance Act, 1918 (which relates to the accounts of Insurance Committees and the audit of such accounts).
    Amendment made: Leave out the word "to" ["to any of the provisions"].—[Sir J. Craig.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 5 (Provision in Case of Transference of Powers as to Training, etc.) and 6 (Application of 8 and 9 Geo..5 c. 57 s. 13, to Ireland) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 7.—(Statutory Bight to Pensions.)
    Every officer or man suffering from a disability attributable to or aggravated by naval, military, or air force service during the present War, and not due to his serious negligence or misconduct,

    733
    shall be entitled to receive such pension, gratuity, or allowance as shall be awarded under any Warrant or Order in Council in respect of such disability, and for the payment whereof money shall have been provided by Parliament; but the award of any such pension, gratuity, or allowance shall be subject to the conditions contained in the Warrant or Order in Council.
    Amendment made: After the word "awarded" ["shall be awarded"], insert the words "by the Ministry of Pensions."—[Sir J. Craig.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 8.—(Appeals to Pensions Appeal Tribunals.)
    (1) Where the claim of an officer or man under any Royal Warrant or Order in Council administered by the Minister of Pensions is wholly or partly rejected on the ground that the disability on which the claim is based,

    (a) is not attributable to or is not aggravated by service during the present War, or

    (b) is due to the serious negligence or misconduct of the claimant;

    or where such disability, although admitted to be aggravated by, is certified not to be attributable to such service; or where the claim of the widow or the motherless child of an officer or man under any such Royal Warrant or Order in Council is rejected on the ground

    (i) that the death of the officer or man was not due to, or that the disease from which he died was not attributable to or aggravated by, such service, nor, in the case of a man, contracted or commenced while he was on active service, or

    (ii) that the death of the officer or man was due to his serious negligence or misconduct.

    an appeal shall lie to a Pensions Appeal Tribunal established under this Section, whose decision shall be final.
    (2) Pensions Appeal Tribunals shall be established for such parts of the United Kingdom as may be determined, in accordance with the pro visions of the Schedule to this Act. The provisions of that Schedule shall have effect in relation to the constitution, jurisdiction, and procedure of Pensions Appeal Tribunals.
    Amendments made:
    In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "wholly or partly" ["is wholly or partly rejected"].
    In paragraph (a), leave out the words "is not" ["or is not aggravated."]—[Sir J. Craig.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 9 (Extension of Acts) and 10 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Colonel Sir James Craig): I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." We cannot go on, under an arrangement with hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow (Friday).
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  SUPERANNUATION—PRISON OFFICERS [MONEY].
  Committee to consider of making further provision, out of moneys provided by Parliament, for superannuation and additional allowances to Officers employed in Prisons and Criminal Lunatic Asylums—(King's Recommendation signified)— To-morrow (Friday).—[Lord Edmund Talbot.]
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock on Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twelve minutes after One a.m., 8th August.

  CLUBS (RESTRICTIONS).
  CLUBS (RESTRICTIONS).
  CIVIL LIST PENSIONS.
  CIVIL LIST PENSIONS.
  CIVIL SERVICE (RECONSTRUCTION REGULATIONS).
  CIVIL SERVICE (RECONSTRUCTION REGULATIONS).
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  SMYRNA DISORDERS.
  SMYRNA DISORDERS.
  INDUSTRIAL LEGISLATION
  INDUSTRIAL LEGISLATION
  VICTORY LOAN (ADVERTISING).
  VICTORY LOAN (ADVERTISING).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (WOMEN EMPLOYES).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (WOMEN EMPLOYES).
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  REGISTRATION.
  REGISTRATION.
  RATIONING.
  RATIONING.
  INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.
  INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.
ROYAL NAVY.
  LAND AND BUILDINGS, THROSK.
  LAND AND BUILDINGS, THROSK.
  SUBMARINE SERVICE (PERCENTAGE KILLED).
  SUBMARINE SERVICE (PERCENTAGE KILLED).
  ENGINEERING STAFF.
  ENGINEERING STAFF.
  ROYAL MARINE GUNNERS (PROMOTION).
  ROYAL MARINE GUNNERS (PROMOTION).
  LIBERTY MEN ON SHORE (ACCOMMODATION).
  LIBERTY MEN ON SHORE (ACCOMMODATION).
  HIRED BARGES (RELEASE).
  HIRED BARGES (RELEASE).
DEMOBILISATION.
  APPLICATIONS FOR RELEASE.
  APPLICATIONS FOR RELEASE.
  IRISH SOLDIERS.
  IRISH SOLDIERS.
  TROOPS IN INDIA.
  TROOPS IN INDIA.
  DERBY SCHEME MEN.
  DERBY SCHEME MEN.
RUSSIA.
  WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS.
  WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS.
  ROYAL ENGINEERS TRANSPORTATION ARMY (SAPPER T. CRITCHLEY).
  ROYAL ENGINEERS TRANSPORTATION ARMY (SAPPER T. CRITCHLEY).
  CASUALTIES (NOTIFICATION).
  CASUALTIES (NOTIFICATION).
  PRINCE LIEVEN.
  PRINCE LIEVEN.
  NURSES.
  NURSES.
  SUPPLIES.
  SUPPLIES.
  MILITARY HOSPITAL, WARLING HAM.
  MILITARY HOSPITAL, WARLING HAM.
  WAR DECORATIONS (HOME SERVICES).
  WAR DECORATIONS (HOME SERVICES).
  TROOPSHIPS (FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY).
  TROOPSHIPS (FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY).
  ARMY LEAVE (AGRICULTURISTS).
  ARMY LEAVE (AGRICULTURISTS).
  ARMY OFFICERS (RANK).
  ARMY OFFICERS (RANK).
  SOLDIERS SERVING OVERSEAS.
  SOLDIERS SERVING OVERSEAS.
  MOTOR REPAIR DEPOT, CIPPENHAM.
  MOTOR REPAIR DEPOT, CIPPENHAM.
  ITALIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE (SMALL-POX).
  ITALIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE (SMALL-POX).
  ARMY BANDMASTERS.
  ARMY BANDMASTERS.
  ARMY TRAINING (EDUCATION).
  ARMY TRAINING (EDUCATION).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (ADDRESSES TO MEMBERS).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (ADDRESSES TO MEMBERS).
  DISINTERRED BODIES, FRANCE (REMOVAL).
  DISINTERRED BODIES, FRANCE (REMOVAL).
  COMMAND PAY.
  COMMAND PAY.
  PROFICIENCY PAY (PRIVATE MILLER).
  PROFICIENCY PAY (PRIVATE MILLER).
  LABOUR RATES, MILTON AND DIDCOT.
  LABOUR RATES, MILTON AND DIDCOT.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  AERODROMES AND OFFICES (RELINQUISHMENT).
  AERODROMES AND OFFICES (RELINQUISHMENT).
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  HIGHLAND LIGHT INFANTRY (PRIVATE J. C. PLATTS).
  HIGHLAND LIGHT INFANTRY (PRIVATE J. C. PLATTS).
  ROYAL WARRANT (DEFINITION).
  ROYAL WARRANT (DEFINITION).
  ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (MR. J. EGAN).
  ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (MR. J. EGAN).
  WAR GRATUITY.
  WAR GRATUITY.
  DISCHARGED SERVICE MEN (NEURASTHENIC CASES).
  DISCHARGED SERVICE MEN (NEURASTHENIC CASES).
  PEACE CELEBRATIONS (OLD AGE PENSIONS).
  PEACE CELEBRATIONS (OLD AGE PENSIONS).
  SCHOOL TEACHERS (PENSIONS).
  SCHOOL TEACHERS (PENSIONS).
  INDIAN CURRENCY COMMITTEE (EVIDENCE).
  INDIAN CURRENCY COMMITTEE (EVIDENCE).
  METROPOLITAN POLICE (PENSIONS).
  METROPOLITAN POLICE (PENSIONS).
  TRAMS AND OMNIBUSES (KNEE-COVERINGS).
  TRAMS AND OMNIBUSES (KNEE-COVERINGS).
  GERMANS IN GREAT BRITAIN.
  GERMANS IN GREAT BRITAIN.
HOUSING.
  THATCHED ROOFS.
  THATCHED ROOFS.
  INSPECTORS (TRAINING FACILITIES).
  INSPECTORS (TRAINING FACILITIES).
  KEIGHLEY SCHEMES.
  KEIGHLEY SCHEMES.
  WINDSOE PARK ESTATE, TOTTENHAM.
  WINDSOE PARK ESTATE, TOTTENHAM.
  GOVERNMENT SCHEMES, SCOTLAND.
  GOVERNMENT SCHEMES, SCOTLAND.
RAILWAY ADMINISTRATION.
  GOODS DELIVERY, EALING.
  GOODS DELIVERY, EALING.
  OLD KENT ROAD STATION.
  OLD KENT ROAD STATION.
  GOVERNMENT GUARANTEE.
  GOVERNMENT GUARANTEE.
COAL.
  DAILY OUTPUT AND CONSUMPTION.
  DAILY OUTPUT AND CONSUMPTION.
  INCREASED PRICE (EFFECT ON ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKINGS).
  INCREASED PRICE (EFFECT ON ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKINGS).
  STEAMERS (LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES).
  STEAMERS (LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES).
  DAMAGE BY AIRCRAFT (INSURANCE).
  DAMAGE BY AIRCRAFT (INSURANCE).
  INSURANCE COMPANIES (REGISTRATION).
  INSURANCE COMPANIES (REGISTRATION).
  CIVILIAN AVIATION (CONDITIONS).
  CIVILIAN AVIATION (CONDITIONS).
POST OFFICE.
  SUB-POSTMASTERS, IRELAND.
  SUB-POSTMASTERS, IRELAND.
  TIMBER SUPPLY DEPARTMENT (WAGES)
  TIMBER SUPPLY DEPARTMENT (WAGES)
  SMALL HOLDINGS (HIGH PRICES FOR LAND).
  SMALL HOLDINGS (HIGH PRICES FOR LAND).
  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES (LAND ACQUISITION).
  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES (LAND ACQUISITION).
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (MINIMUM WAGE).
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (MINIMUM WAGE).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE CHANCELLOR, OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD): My Lords, I beg to give notice that on Monday next the Lord President of the Council will move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered with a view to its being suspended.
MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
MILFORD DOCKS BILL.
Read 3a; Further Amendments made; Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
BEDWELLTY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
STRETFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

MESSAGE FROM THE BELGIAN SENATE.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I have to announce to your Lordships that I have received the following Message from the President of the. Belgian Senate—
As interpreter of the sentiments of the members of the Belgian Senate, I beg you, on this auspicious and unforgettable occasion when Victory is celebrated, to accept the expression of our deepest and most grateful sympathy for the great and generous British people, and of our lively admiration of the glorious deeds of its mighty forces on land and on sea.
We express to you our most fervent wishes for the greatness and well-being of the British Empire. May the benefits of Peace, so heroically assured, draw still closer the bonds of friendship which unite our two countries.
I beg your Excellency to accept the expression of my high consideration.
(Signed) BARON DE FAVEREAU.
I have taken it upon myself to give directions that a cordial message be sent in reply.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 5) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 6) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on these Bills.—(Viscount Sandhurst).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Is it not rather a new procedure to commit Bills en bloc?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: lf the slightest objection is raised to the procedure of taking the Bills en bloc, that course will naturally not be adopted. Before the Motion was made, it was ascertained that no single Amendment was on the Paper in relation to any one of these Bills, and it was thought that it might be economical of your Lordships' time to take them together. Of course, if any member of your Lordships' House desires that the Bills should be taken separately, it shall be done.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think that a precedent of the kind proposed ought to be made without some consideration.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Very well; the Bills shall be taken separately.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Committee made.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Committee made.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): The Amendments proposed by the Committee made.

ACQUISITION OF LAND (ASSESSMENT OF COMPENSATION) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 2:
Bales for the assessment of compensation.
2. In assessing compensation, an official arbitrator shall act in accordance with the following rules:—

(1) No allowance shall be made on account of the acquisition being compulsory

594

(2) The value of land shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be taken to be the amount which the land if sold in the open market by a willing seller might be expected to realise: Provided always that regard shall be had to all returns and assessments for taxation made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the three years next preceding the assessment of compensation:

(3) The special suitability or adaptability of the land for any purpose shall not be taken into account if that purpose is a purpose to which it could be applied only in pursuance of statutory powers, or for which there is no market apart from the special needs of a particular purchaser or the requirements of any Government Department or any local or public authority:

(4) Where the value of the land is increased by reason of the use thereof or of any premises thereon in a manner which could be restrained by any court, or is contrary to law, or is detrimental to the health of the inmates of the premises or to the public health, the amount of that increase shall not be taken into ac count:

(5) Where land is, and but for the compulsory acquisition would continue to be, devoted to a purpose of such a nature that there is no general demand or market for land for that purpose, the compensation may, if the official arbitrator is satisfied that reinstatement in some other place is bona fide intended, be assessed on the basis of the reasonable cost of equivalent reinstatement.

For the purposes of this section, an official arbitrator shall be entitled to be furnished with such returns and assessments as he may require.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to delete the proviso in subsection (2). The noble Earl said: I make no apology for bringing the subject of this Amendment again to the notice of your Lordships' House, because, as ray noble and learned friend on the Woolsack will remember, when it became necessary for the Government to fix last, Monday as the date for Committee—a day on which many of us were engaged celebrating Peace in various parts of the country—I took the liberty of stating that I should feel myself justified in raising on Report anything to which I had not been able to draw attention in Committee. The subject of my Amendment, however, was considered in Committee. There was no Division upon it though there was a considerable amount of speaking, and I venture to think I shall be able to show the House that those speeches did not exhaust the subject, and that it is one still very worthy of the attention of your Lordships' House.
If your Lordships will turn to Clause 2 of the Bill you will find first of all set forth the definition of "value" deliberately chosen by His Majesty's Government, which was so lucidly explained by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack on the occasion of the Second Reading. At the end of that definition, however, you will find a proviso which runs as follows:—
"Provided always that regard shall be had to all returns and assessments for taxation made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the three years next preceding the assessment of compensation."
The criticism on those words in Committee largely hung on the question whether they included an assessment to rates, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, I understood him to say, thought that rating assessments should not be included, and he promised to look into the question further and see whether they were. We shall await with interest what he has to tell us on that subject, but my Amendment is based on much wider considerations than those connected only with rateable value, and I must ask your Lordships to give me your kind attention for a few moments while I go somewhat at length into the history of this proviso and the arguments I shall venture to bring before you against it.
This proviso was not inserted in the original Bill by His Majesty's Government, nor was it inserted in Grand Committee in the House of Commons. It was inserted on Report, and I am not exaggerating when I say that it was inserted after pressure from what is known as the Land Values Group in the House of Commons. It was based on an Amendment moved by Sir Donald Maclean, who stated quite definitely—as I can prove to your Lordships from the Commons Hansard, if you doubt it—that the object of his Amendment was a qualification of the definition adopted by His Majesty's Government. That is to say, the object of his Amendment, on which this proviso is based, was to effect a change in some degree in the definition of value deliberately adopted by His Majesty's Government.
When this Bill was first put down for Committee in this House, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack himself gave notice of the same Amendment as I have on the Paper to-day—an Amendment to cut out this proviso—and he told your Lordships in the Committee stage, with the
596
most complete frankness, why it was that, having allowed the Amendment to be put down in his name, he directed it to be taken off the Paper. I think he will not correct me when I say that the reason for his action was that the attention of the Government had been drawn to certain obiter dicta of the present Prime Minister which he uttered as Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was working the Finance Bill of 1909 through the House of Commons. I can quite understand that His Majesty's Government attribute some importance to obiter dicta of the Prime Minister, although uttered ten years ago in another capacity, but I do not think your Lordships will be surprised if I say that I do not consider obiter dicta of the Prime Minister uttered on such an occasion conclusive in this matter.
Then the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack passed on to consider the proviso on its merits, and I would, with your permission, remind him of what he said, or of part of what he said. You will find it in Column 280 of our OFFICIAL REPORT. He said—
"I never have been quite able to understand why this—"
That is an assessment of this kind—
should not be available as one of the criteria by which one measured the valuations of property for these purposes. It is not necessarily conclusive, but surely it is a consideration which no judge should say was irrelevant, or that it was a consideration which might not throw some light upon it."
Now, I unhesitatingly say "Yes" to that proposition of the noble and learned Lord. I admit that an assessment or return of this kind is one of the criteria which should be applied by the arbitrator in coming to a decision on such a question as that which we are considering; but what I contend is that it is only one of the criteria, and that to single it out and place it alone in juxtaposition to the actual definition of value framed by the Government, is to give it a wholly undue importance in proportion to other criteria.
I want particularly to draw your Lordships' attention to that argument. If this one criterion amongst several criteria is deliberately singled out and added to the definition of value, surely it must mislead the arbitrator. Why is it so singled out? I have already told you that Sir Donald Maclean, by whose action in the House of Commons this proviso was introduced, has deliberately said that his intention was

597
to qualify the definition of value adopted by the Government. Therefore, I say—either this one of the criteria, taken alone and placed in juxtaposition to the definition, does not produce the market value as ascertained by that definition, or it does. If it does not, it is quite clearly superogatory. If it does, then Sir Donald Maclean has succeeded in doing something quite different from what, the Government intended. By inserting this proviso he has succeeded in making them change, in some degree, the definition of value which they have deliberately adopted.
I want to dwell on the great importance of that fact, because this House passed this definition of value with great confidence, after the explanation and assurance of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. He told us exactly what, in his opinion, that definition meant, and he told us that in his opinion, to which we attach the greatest importance, it was a perfectly fair definition as between the buyer and the seller. Not only that, but he backed up his opinion by quotations from the judgment of the Master of the Rolls in the Court of Appeal, and explained, without any kind of hesitation, that in his opinion that interpretation of the law by the Master of the Rolls would apply to this definition of value and would be a guide to the arbitrator. Therefore I suggest that this proviso is of the greatest possible importance. Again, I go back to my point that, while this is one of the criteria, it is not the only criterion. There is the question of consequential loss; there is the question of the amount paid by the property in question recently in Estate Duty; Hare are other criteria, a whole list of them, but to put them in the proviso, and direct that the arbitrator should take them into account, would clearly be very bad drafting, and entirely inconsistent with all the principles of legislation which the Lord Chancellor and other legal luminaries in this House have perpetually enforced upon us. Over and over again they have said, "Do not mention one of special contingent considerations, because if you mention one and not all, that one is apt to be held exclusive of all the others;" and that is exactly what I am arguing this proviso will be held to be.
I pass on to a criticism of the actual words of the proviso; and here I would respectfully ask for the attention of the Lord Chancellor. I have entered my protest
598
against adding any proviso at all to the definition deliberately adopted by the Government. I have ventured to express strong reasons, I think, against adding in the proviso one of the criteria chosen arbitrally out of the whole list. And now I come to consider the words of the proviso itself—
"Provided always that regard shall he had to all returns and assessments for taxation made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the three years next preceding the assessment of compensation.''
Why three years? Has the Lord Chancellor considered what the effect of that limitation will be? The whole of the provisional land valuation under the Act of 1909–1910 will be excluded by those words, because none have been made within the last three years. Apart from that, think of the extraordinary unfairness. A man might have paid Estate Duty on a definite sum four or five years before, and that is not taken into consideration at all. Although he paid Estate Duty on a valuation of £10,000 he may now be told that his property is worth only £6,000, and he will not be able to bring this fact—the valuation for Estate Duty purposes four years before—before the arbitrator. It may be quite easy within a brief period for a man to pay Estate Duty on one figure and receive compensation on a wholly different figure. Then under Clause 8, subsection (4), either party can require that the Inland Revenue valuation of the land shall become available as one of the criteria. I have admitted that it is one of the criteria, and it is expressly laid down that either of the parties shall claim that this particular one of the criteria should be taken into account by the arbitrator.
That being so, why single out this one of the many criteria, and tack it on to the definition of values chosen by the Lord Chancellor and by the Government, to the exclusion of all others. There is only one explanation; only one meaning. It is not the meaning of the Lord Chancellor or the meaning of the Government; it is the meaning of Sir Donald Maclean and the Land Values Group whom he represents. In order that your Lordships may be quite sure that I have not exaggerated in this matter, let me read what Sir Donald Maclean said. He said this—
"As the Bill now stands it provides that the value of the land shall be the ordinary market value, and my words art intended to be a qualification of that. The words 'ordinary market value'

599
as they stand in the Bill are taken verbatim et literatim from the Finance Act, 1910, and my words are a qualification of those words."
I think, therefore, that I have made out a strong case, not in support of my own judgment, but in support of the first opinion of the Lord Chancellor, and I ask your Lordships and the Government to support my Amendment, which would have the effect of taking this proviso out of the Bill, leaving as the one direction to the arbitrator the definition of value selected by the Government after the most careful deliberation, as the Lord Chancellor has told us, with the meaning attaching to it which the Lord Chancellor has explained, to be interpreted by the arbitrator in the light of the criteria available to him, of which assessment is one.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 31, leave out from ('realise") to the end of subsection (2).—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Earl has explained very clearly, and in language courteous to myself, his object in moving this Amendment. He made it plain that in his view the Amendment is a substantial one. I confess, having had an opportunity of going into this matter more fully than on the Committee stage, I am not able to share that view, and I hope I may be successful in persuading the noble Earl that the view I am about to put before your Lordships is well-founded.
The main argument of the noble Earl is this. He says that in the earlier part of Clause 2, subsection (2), the lines which precede the proviso (which the noble Earl would exclude) a general canon is laid down. That is perfectly true. Then he asks, Why, if you lay down a general standard and method by which you are to assess value in the earlier words, do you single out this one for mention in the proviso out of all the other things which have to be taken into consideration? Really, on reflection, that argument does not possess the force which the noble Earl attributed to it. In the first place the noble Earl is good enough to accept, as I think he may without any anxiety, the statement of the law which I laid down on the Committee stage; and, in the second place, the noble Earl made another admission which I should expect from him. He said that the element of rating, though obviously not having a very direct or important contribution to offer to the question of capital value—
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I did not say rating.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I understood the noble Earl to quote what I said in the Committee stage, and I think he read the exact passage.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I mentioned Inland Revenue assessments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble Earl said "rating," but I will look for the exact words. The column in the OFFICIAL REPORT which the noble Earl quoted was 280. The words used are—
"I have never been able to understand why, when you are attempting to arrive at a true conclusion as to the value of the land, you should exclude altogether the returns and assessments for taxation which have been made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the last three years."
I remember that the point was under discussion in the Committee stage, and I was asked whether the words were apt to cover "rating." I have gone into the matter since, and I have no doubt that the words do cover it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Rating is included.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes. Therefore what it is necessary to ask oneself now is whether it is or is not a reasonable thing that rating should be included as one of the criteria and, if so, and it ought to be included, is the mode by which it is provided that it shall be considered in this proviso such as to lead to the consequences which the noble Earl anticipated. I argue first of all the point of principle, and, secondly, whether it ought to be singled out to be mentioned. First as to whether it ought to be considered. No one, of course, will pretend, when you are dealing with what is a question of determining the capital value, that the material which is primarily concerned with the annual value should possess very great importance; but the point is this, not whether it should possess very great or decisive importance, but whether it should be available to be considered amongst other materials for forming a judgment by the arbitrators who have to deal with these matters.
Let me say shortly why I make the suggestion that it should be available as one of the elements for consideration. After all, when a man is rated he has the

601
opportunity of making certain observations and submissions, and Although that with which he is dealing is a question of the annual value, nobody who knows anything of the methods by which actuarial computations dealing with actual value are arrived at will suppose that you can ignore any material which throws light upon the annual value. After all, one of the methods is by capitalising the annual value, and no one will claim more for it than that it is one of the elements which may be properly placed before the arbitrator.
Then the noble Earl says, Why is this alone of all the indicia to be singled out? I think it is singled out for a very clear reason. It is the first time that rating bits been admitted as one of the indicia in attempting to ascertain the capital value, and therefore while the words which precede have precisely the meaning which I attribute to them, that alone is the reason why this is the only additional method which is selected, because if the proviso did not contain the words to which the noble Earl objects it would not have been possible to include rating. That is the answer to his objection.
"But why three years" asks the noble Earl. That is a fair question; but then he suggests that the effect of limiting the period to three years might be to exclude valuations made under the Finance Act 1909–10. That observation is not well founded. "Provided always that regard should be had" lays en injunction upon the arbitrator and. compels him to take into consideration the assessment for taxation and so forth for three years, which otherwise he would not have been legally entitled to consider, but it does not prevent the person whose estate is being taken from putting before the arbitrator any consideration which he thinks will assist him in his view of the market value of the property. The only object is to enable the arbitrator to consider things which he would not have been entitled to consider. There is nothing and never has been anything in the law which disentitled a claimant to go before the arbitrator and say, "These are things which you should consider."
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Or the purchaser?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly, but that does not affect the argument at all.
602
As I understood the noble Earl, he says "Why is it you limit it to three years? "And I say there never was any reason why he who applied to receive compensation should not put the whole of this material before the arbitrator, but this proviso is necessary to entitle the arbitrator to consider it. If the noble Earl is not satisfied with three years the Government will be quite prepared to make it five or six years, or any period which the noble Earl thinks may be necessary. We took the view that three years was a reasonable period, and such as might appear likely to afford proper guidance.
The whole question is this, whether there is any discontent with the general definition given of market value. Such apprehensions as were felt and expressed in the debates on the Committee stage could not and did not survive she explanation of the law which. I gave and which was fully acquiesced in by Lord Parmoor, who has great knowledge on this subject; therefore we are all agreed that the determination of market value is one which may be and ought to be accepted. The only question which remains is whether or not this proviso ought to stand. If it does not stand the arbitrator cannot look at the taxing or rating returns for the three years which precede the moment at which the property is taken, and therefore the one and only point to which your Lordships should give attention is this, Are those considerations, or are they not, which ought to be borne in mind inter alia by the arbitrator in arriving at his decision. It seems to me that they are. When the noble Earl speaks of what the then Chancellor of the Exchequer stated on behalf of the Government in the House of Commons as obiter dictum I do not think he very appropriately employs that phrase. "Obiter dictum" is an observation made by a Judge in the course of a case, and generally, if I may say so, is very wisely avoided by the best Judges, because it is on a matter which does not require decision and is binding on no one.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I shall not say anything about the earlier words of this subsection. I think it is true that the noble and learned Lord, upon the Committee stage of the Bill, satisfied your Lordships that the phrase "sale in the open market by a willing seller" had been the subject of interpretation in the Court of Appeal, and that we might look upon the definition so arrived at as quite satisfactory.

603
Nor will I say anything except a phrase about the point raised by my noble friend as to the unfairness of limiting the assessment in the proviso to the three years, because I understand the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack is prepared to consider an Amendment on that point. But I should like to say a word or two on the proviso.
In the first place, the noble and learned Lord has defended the insertion of the proviso on the ground that it opens the door to the valuer to consider amongst other things these returns of assessment. It does more than open the door. I am not sure that the noble and learned Lord put it strong enough. It directs him to consider it. He said, "There is no unfairness upon the seller that other assessments are excluded or other indicia are excluded, because it is always open to the seller to bring them before the valuer." That is true. It is true of the purchaser, too. And even without the proviso it is perfectly possible for the local authority or whoever is the purchaser, to bring all the relevant evidence of any kind before the valuer, and so far as that is concerned there is no reason to treat the seller and purchaser on a different footing. In either case they have access to the same judicial authority, and they have liberty to bring the same kind of evidence on the one side or the other, and I cannot see why they should be treated on a different footing. They ought to be treated exactly the same. There ought not to be a direction in the Act of Parliament that the judicial authority is to consider the case of one side unless you direct him also to consider the case on the other side. This is inequitable direction—inequitable I mean in the sense that it prefers, of the two parties to the suit, the one (a purchaser) and gives him an assistance in the Act of Parliament which is not given to the other party to the suit—namely, the seller. That is the first point I would make.
The second point is in reference to the question of rateable value. The noble and learned Lord will forgive me for saying that his attitude has very much changed on this subject since the matter was discussed in Committee, because in Committee he was much surprised that rateable value was included; indeed, he did not believe it. He said over and over again across the floor of your Lordships' House to my noble and learned friend Lord
604
Parmoor that he did not think that rateable value would be included. Now it appears that rateable value certainly is included, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor, said it was.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: At the end of the discussion I said this—
"As to the point raised by the noble and learned Lord on the rating, I am prepared, if it meets his views in any way, that it should be a little more carefully considered whether the language used in this section does cover the case of rating. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord between now and the Report stage will allow me to have a word with him to discuss that."
Thereupon the following was said—
LORD PARMOOR: I am much obliged for the answer which the noble and learned Lord has made. I may speak again on Report. The noble and learned Lord has said that we are dealing here with questions of assessment of compensation—that is to say, arbitration proceedings.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
LORD PARMOOR: If the noble Lord is willing, as I understand he is, to consider the question as to whether the rating value should be eliminated from the general principle of taxation of values, I will certainly get into communication with him on that point.
Since then I have been in communication with the noble and learned Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It is not material. I certainly thought that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, when he spoke in Committee, was under the impression that rateable value was probably not included. I want to address myself for a moment to the substance of the matter. Why should rateable value be included? The noble and learned Lord said that it ought to be included because, after all, every ratepayer had the right to challenge the assessment of rateable value, and if he had the right to challenge if it was his fault if it was wrongly fixed. I feel great diffidence in calling the attention of so great an authority to the real condition of the rating law, and I do not think that I should dare to do it if my noble and learned friend Lord Parmoor were present, but I have sat, as have many of your Lordships, on rateable appeals, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will I am sure allow me to say—he will correct me if I am wrong—that the assessment of rateable value is upon a totally different value from the assessment of capital value, because what the law directs is that the rateable value shall be fixed upon what a willing tenant, taking one year

605
with another, would be willing to give for one year. That is the law of rateable value.
Consequently in the case of a great deal of property, especially house property, the assessment of the rateable value is very far below the capital assessment, and rightly so, because a willing tenant from year to year would not for one year be prepared to give a very large rent for it, and therefore the rateable value is low. That is not because of any undue favouritism on the part of the rateable authority, or of any man, but is because that is and always has been the law. Because of this very special provision of the law, rateable value in many cases is far below the capital assessment. The same is true of woodlands. The assessment of rateable value in the case of woodlands is far below, and is meant to be below, the capital value. Is not that a very strong reason why it should be eliminated from the consideration of an arbitrator whose business it is to consider the capital value and nothing but the capital value? I should have thought it was absolutely conclusive that it was most unfair that a valuer, or an authority whose business it is to consider nothing but the true capital value of a particular piece of property, should be directed to consider the annual value, which has nothing to do with the capital value. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that I have stated the law quite accurately as it stands.
I think that the result of reading these words into the proviso is that the arbitrator would be directed to consider annual value, which is expressly and purposely less, and in some cases very much less, than the capital value in question. The noble and learned Lord said, "He only has to have regard to it." I honestly do not know what having regard to a thing means, but I am quite sure what the ordinary man would mean by it. He would take it to mean that it was to be a governing consideration. I do not understand what other meaning it can have. I do not say that it is a consideration that is conclusive, but that it is a governing consideration which must never be left out of account. In no circumstances could the valuer leave it out of account if you were to give a true interpretation of the words. I submit to your Lordships, in whatever part of the House you sit, that to allow those words to stand, including as they do, by the admission and statement of the noble and learned Lord
606
on the Woolsack, rateable value, is unfair on the face of it, and that your Lordships ought to amend it.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Unfortunately I did not hear the greater part of the reply of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. It is clear, of course, that there are two distinct points in the discussion. The last one raised by the noble Marquess had reference to rateable value. At the earlier stage I expressed an opinion very much on the same lines as the noble Marquess, that if rateable value did come under the terms of this clause it ought to be excluded for the same reasons that the noble Marquess has given, namely, that, that being the lettable value of a particular subject for one year, it was not reasonable to regard it as any guide or basis for the computation of the capital value of the same subject. I still hold that view, but I am very far from agreeing with the noble Marquess that the whole proviso ought therefore to be struck out.
I hold the opinion that the object to be aimed at throughout is that the value for taxation should be the same as the value for sale. And the value for sale should be accordingly the same as the estimated value for taxation. That is to say, any land that is to be sold should be sold at a capital figure parallel to the annual charge imposed upon it for taxation, neither more nor less. That being so, the proviso ought, in my opinion, to stand. But assuming it to be possible, as it well may be, to exclude consideration of the rating value altogether, I think this ought to be done. Of course, it may be argued that the rateable value is so remote from the valuation which the arbitrators will have to arrive at that their minds are not to be brought o bear upon it at all, and therefore the inclusion of all values for assessment from that point of view does not matter; that is to say, no smaller sum would be given by the arbitrators because the assessment for rating happened to be low. But I do not think that that is quite a complete answer, and in my judgment some provision ought to be made for excluding consideration of that value altogether. But I am firmly of opinion that the taxable value ought to be maintained.
LORD WITTENHAM: I was all through the Budget debates of 1909–1910, and it strikes me very clearly that this is an

607
echo, perhaps a far-off echo, of what was raised by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer as really a nova res. I remember perfectly well how all the opponents of that famous Budget certainly were influenced by, and I rather think voted against what then seemed to be a new idea—the idea that in arriving at the value of land regard ought to be had in various ways to the value which the owner himself had put upon the land for different reasons. Now we come to this Bill, and it really is important to look at the history of it. Because when it was introduced the Government draftsman did not put in this proviso at all. One must assume, I think, that that was the mind of the Government—that the Government. were perfectly satisfied to leave it to the arbitrators to discover the price of a willing seller, and the file has been pointed out by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, it seems to me with great force, that this proviso having found its way into the Bill at all was the work of Sir Donald Maclean and the land values group. I have not looked at the, House of Commons Debates to see how it was that that steered its way successfully through the Lobby, but it did. So we must assume—must we not?—that the Government for some reason gulped down the original idea that it had of leaving the ascertainment of the value of the land on the old lines.
When it got here (and here I speak with the greatest diffidence, and I feel I am treading on rather difficult ground) the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack thought the same, because, doubtless for very good reasons, he himself put an Amendment down striking out these words. Coming from such an eminent authority, and from one in his great and distinguished position, one cannot look upon that as an Amendment put down by a humble back bencher such as myself. It was put down evidently for a very good reason—that the noble and learned Lord was satisfied with the old way of ascertaining the value for the purposes of this Bill. But then suddenly it disappears from the Amendment Paper. In the House of Commons it was always thought to be rather a significant circumstance when an Amendment suddenly disappeared from the Amendment Paper. I am not at all sure I would not sooner have the noble and learned Lord's first opinion on this matter rather than his second.
And I cannot get rid of my own past, if we are going to divide upon this matter.
608
Because in 1909–10 I was fervently opposed to a proviso of this kind, and so we all were. The noble Earl who directed our fortunes in those days (Lord Crawford), I suspect, was just as strongly opposed as myself. Are we to swallow our old opinions, and if so, why? Now if I swallow part of mine it would be for this reason, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has pressed this point—it seems to me, at any rate to have a good deal in it—that this is a nova res, that no arbitrator would have regard to those facts described in the proviso unless his attention was particularly called to it by the purchaser; that it was introducing a new system altogether, and although it was mentioned in the Budget of 1909–10, and great force was ascribed to it by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it did not find its way into legislation until now; and therefore it was necessary to single that out from all the other considerations that would pass like a panorama before the arbitrator's mind, because the arbitrator would be hound to exclude this unless his attention were specifically directed to it by the Statute. That seems to have a great deal of force in it as regards assessment for taxation. I am not going to say a word about rating, because I think it must be clear to us all that some words must be introduced there; the assessment for rating is for an entirely different purpose. Much stronger and acuter intelligences than mine have made that clear.
But with regard to capital assessment, is it unfair to direct the arbitrator's mind specially to the fact that he must have regard to the value which a man for capital purposes has put upon his own land? Using such intelligence as I possess and trying to apply the canon that one ought always to apply—the canon of justice—I ask, is it just? I think it is. For instance, a man is assessed for Death Duties; he has passed away, but his executors assess his land for Death Duty purposes. It passes the usual criterion of examination in the office which deals with such things, and it becomes a canon of value. Now, is it unfair, if the land is sold afterwards, that regard should be had to the circumstance that the executors with all the knowledge at their command and looking at the whole matter came to the conclusion that this land was worth so much, and that on that the Death Duties are paid? Then afterwards this very land comes up before the arbitrator to have its capital value assessed.

609
Is it unfair that you should turn up the pages for the Death Duties and say to the present owner, "You now say that your land is worth £20,000. Why, God bless my soul! When I look up the papers of two or three years ago I find that the executors of your father assessed it at £10,000; and the circumstances have not changed." Looking at it in that way, I cannot think that it is unfair. Therefore I am driven to the conclusion, for what it may be worth, that part of the proviso is fair and reasonable in the circumstances—namely, assessment for capital value; but that words should be introduced making it clear that the arbitrators ought not to take into consideration any question of rateable value.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I think it is obvious what this proviso means when put in plain language. It means that for Government taxation such as Death Duties there is one consideration, but when the Government wish to take the land there is another consideration. I will give your Lordships an instance of the way in which any Government Department looks at it. I have lately had all my lands in Scotland valued for Death Duties. Shortly after this valuation was settled a Government Department wanted some land from me. I worked out the value on the same lines as the valuation for Death Duties, but I was immediately told that the price asked was either "excessive" or "exorbitant"—the very price at which the Government had valued it. It. is done simply for this reason. Say that an estate is valued under the Finance Act of 1909, or for Death Duties. If after the lapse of three or five years they wish to take the land they say, "Oh no, we are not going to pay you this price; we are going to pay you a price based entirely on the annual rental."
I would not pretend, of course, to argue with the noble and learned Lord on such a question as this, but I think it is obvious that anyone taking the value of land always deals with the rental, and that for practical purposes is almost the same as the rateable value. It is obvious that the way in which attention is drawn to this must influence the arbitrator or the valuer to a great extent. We are aware that in many of the Acts lately passed—especially Acts dealing with finance—there have been expressions in the Court of Appeal's and in the House of Lords' decisions as to the difficulty of interpreting these things; they are invariably in favour of the Treasury or
610
Inland Revenue and against the individual. There will be explanations when the Bill is going through that everything is all right and that it means this that and the other but when it comes before the Courts a very different interpretation is put upon it. I feel convinced, as I think your Lordship who have heard the debate to-day will be convinced, that the sole reason for this is to have one valuation for taxation on Deat Duties and another valuation for any Government Department that wishes to take the land. I trust that your Lordships will support and carry this Amendment.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Before the noble Viscount replies I want only to ask a concrete question and not to add to the arguments already advanced. The case I am going to mention actually occurred within the last few days and I should like to know how it would be dealt with under the Bill. A commercial firm in the year 1914 had its premises valued at £100,000. The rateable value is based on that valuation and amounts to something like £5,000 a year, which sum is being paid at this moment. Last year this firm was taken over by another firm, and for that purpose a very close valuation was made as it was obviously necessary for the purchasing firm to obtain the premises on the lowest possible valuation. Finally the price was agreed at £150,000.
VISCOUNT PEEL: In what year was that?
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: The first valuation was in 1914 and the second in 1918. Now, within the last three weeks those premises, not being required by that intending purchasing firm, have been sold to a willing purchaser for £200,000. I would ask the noble and learned Lord this question. Obviously the price at which the land is sold in the open market to a willing buyer is £200,000, but equally obviously—or so any layman would assume—provided "regard is to be had to all returns and assessments for taxation made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the last three years," those returns will be on the basis of—100,000. Therefore it seems to me clear that if you put in this proviso it is impossible for the arbitrator to give the sum which a willing purchaser not only was willing to give but has actually given in the last few days, although the case might arise on the same property

611
within a few weeks from now. I ask the noble and learned Lord whether, as a matter of law, it would be possible for the arbitrator to give the whole £200,000 if he has to have regard to the assessments which had been acquiesced in for three years past.
There is then the question with regard to the small owners of houses. For three years past they have not been allowed to ask additional rent for their houses by Act of Parliament. It is perfectly obvious that a large number of those who buy house property—which is a favourite form of investment for small people—do so, not on the existing rental, but in the belief that a larger rental will be obtained. Parliament stepped in and kept down the rent. Your Lordships will no doubt have had experience that during the past three or four years much larger rents could have been obtained if you had been so minded and had been allowed by Act of Parliament. The rents, however, have been kept down, although the capital value has, as everybody knows, increased and is far in excess of the rental value in the majority of instances. Again, I ask, Is the owner to be compensated subject to this proviso, which must undoubtedly cut down the capital value which he would get from a willing purchaser?
I think there was considerable force in the remarks of my noble friend Lord Salisbury. After all, rateable assessment precedes value; it cannot follow. It is made solely upon the existing order of things for one year. Therefore it leaves out of account an enormous area of the value which is part of that which you must take into consideration. If you leave the proviso out entirely, the arbitrator would have those facts, amongst others, before him. Surely if you direct his mind to them in this way there can be but one conclusion—that he must cut down the actual price which has been paid by the willing purchaser in order to arrive at the value.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I should like to make one observation with regard to the speeches of the noble Lords on this point. I think if anybody had come into this House and, without looking at the clause, had heard their speeches he would have supposed that the only direction in this clause was that the price of the land was to be taken on the basis of the annual value. There was no trace during the arguments of noble
612
Lords opposite of what is the real meaning of the clause, which deals with returns and assessments to taxation. Those, of course, include not, merely rateable value but assessments to Death Duties, valuations, and matters of that kind. Your Lordships are assuming from your reading of the clause that the sole and only point to which the arbitrator is to direct his attention is the annual value, and this in spite of the provisions in the first portion of the subsection to which the rest of the words are merely a proviso.
The noble Duke who spoke on this point talked of property in Scotland which has been valued for Death Duties, and he said, "I see the object of the Government perfectly well. After they have valued this land for Death Duties at any particular sum you like—half a million or whatever it may be (a high sum)—they are going to come down, and when they want to purchase the land they are going to take it at a totally different valuation." I do not think the noble Duke can have read the clause, because this proviso precisely takes into account and tries to avoid that particular mischief. Without this clause it would be quite possible that the arbitrator might not take into consideration at all the question of that valuation.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: The proviso is only for three years. It. therefore practically wipes out any assessment which might have been taken four or five years before.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I will deal with that point, although I thought it had been dropped by the noble Marquess opposite, because it had been so fully dealt with by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. Let me, however, finish my first point. I will take the three years first. What this proviso does is to give a direction to the arbitrator to take into account that particular valuation made within the last three years which might not be taken into account if that proviso was not there. The noble Duke says, "But how unfair that is, because the valuation might have been taken four, five, or six years before. Why is he not directed to take that into account also? "I thought the noble Marquess rather accepted the explanation of the noble and learned Lord on that point, that no particular stress is laid upon the three years; you might alter it to four or five if you like. The three Years was put in for

613
the protection of the seller in order that some valuation made at some anterior period when the price of laud possibly was much lower might not be specially taken into consideration. The period of three years, therefore, is of assistance and not a detriment to the seller, and I think the noble Marquess rather assented to that.
The noble and learned Lord further pointed out that those valuations are not excluded because they are advantageous to the seller of the land. He is perfectly justified in bringing them forward and they would no doubt be considered. I think that is an answer to the objection of the noble Duke. I may say, in passing, that I thought he rather assented to the case about rating, because he told us that rental was much the same as rating. I therefore assume that he would not object to the point about so many years' purchase on the rental. You have been arguing this paint solely on the question whether it is the rateable value.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not think I did.
VISCOUNT PEEL: No, I do not say that you did.
TEE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: We, of course, discuss the points as they arise. The proceedings of your Lordships' House would be unduly prolonged if we always recited the criticisms on our speeches each time. I do not think it would be possible to do that. We, of course, took the points which were being argued at the moment.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I was only giving the general effect on my mind of the speeches. May I say one word upon the rateable value, to which the noble Marquess has so much. objected? The noble Marquess has entered into an elaborate argument and criticised the rateable value as the basis of capital value. He says it is simply the value for the year for the particular tenant.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Not the particular tenant.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Well, for any hypothetical tenant.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Yes, That is the right word.
VISCOUNT PEEL: What I was going to say was that these considerations which are present to the mind of the noble Marquess will, of course, also be present to the mind of the arbitrator. This clause does not say that the arbitrator shall make that the basis of the assessment; it merely does not wish to exclude it from the general purview of the arbitrator.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: He is to "have regard'' to it.
VISCOUNT PEEL: He shall have regard to it, among, of course, all the other circumstances of the ease.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It does not say so.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The first part of the subsection says—
" The value of land shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be taken to be the amount which the land if sold in the open market by a willing seller might be expected to realise."
He might be in a difficulty. The land might not have been sold fur some time, and it might be difficult therefore to arrive at a proper selling value. All that this says is that in trying to arrive at the capital value the arbitrator shall take all these other matters into consideration, including of course the assessments for Death Duties, and so on. In taking them into con-consideration we must assume—because I think he is to be a very highly paid official, who is to have £3,000 a year and will be a distinguished surveyor possessing a great deal of experience in these matters—that he is not going to fall into the elementary blunder which the noble Marquess thinks he will fall into of saying that in all eases the rateable value is the only and most reliable basis on which you can assess the capital value. The noble Marquess wants to prevent him from taking that into consideration and to exclude altogether one of the elements, which may be in some cases a large element, and in others a smaller element, and, I quite admit, in some cases a very unfair element, while in other cases it may have some bearing. He wants to shut it out of his mind altogether. I submit that in arriving at these valuations the arbitrator is not unfairly told to consider all these different circumstances—assessments, returns, valuations, of whatever kind and character—and then form his judgment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Before putting the Question I would make a suggestion. As objection has been taken to the words "regard shall be had to," I would substitute "he Shall be entitled to consider." I think that would cover the point raised by the noble Earl and still leave open the question whether rating ought to be included or not, and. I should propose, with the assistance of the draftsman, to offer the noble Earl an opportunity on Third Reading of specifically raising the rating problem. The original Question was to leave out all words after "realise" to the end of the subsection, but I under-
Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I beg to move, after the word "assessments" in the proviso, to insert the words "of capital value." It is quite unnecessary that I should repeat the arguments that have been addressed to the House. The object of the Amendment is to leave out the rateable value.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Does it only apply to Death Duties?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Of capital value.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: For taxation?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Yes.
stand it is desired to vary the Amendment by leaving out from "realise" to the word assessments."
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: That will reserve the rating question.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
On Question, whether the words proposed to be left out shall stand part of the clause?—
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 31; Not-Contents, 20.

CONTENTS.

Birkenhead, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Haldane, V.

Hylton, L. [Teller.]

Peel, V.

Islington, L.

Crewe, M.

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Birmingham, L. Bp.

Newlands, L.

Bradford, E.

Ranksborough, L.

Chesterfield, E.

Annesley, L.

Rotherham, L.

Jersey, E.

Blyth, L.

Shandon, L.

Kimberley, E.

Chalmers, L.

Sinha, L.

Lytton, E.

Cochrane of Cults, L.

Somerleyton, L. [Teller.]

Colebrooke, L.

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

Sandhurst, V. (L. Chamberlain.)

Denman, L.

Wittenham, L.

Finlay, V.

Emmott, L.

Wyfold, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Northumberland, D.

Malmesbury, E.

Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

Selborne, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Lincolnshire, M.

Stanhope, E. [Teller.]

Ebury, L.

Salisbury, M.

Verulam, E.

Forester, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Ancaster, E.

Hood, V.

St. Lavan, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Stuart of Wortley, L.

Askwith, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L. [Teller.]

Avebury, L.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: It is only Death Duties.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Land valuation.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: If these words can be improved upon, it can be done on the occasion of the Third Reading. It is quite sufficient now to raise the question of limiting this proviso to assessments of capital value for taxation, to the exclusion of rateable values.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 32, after "assessment") insert ("of capital value").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: The noble Earl has made his object quite clear in moving this Amendment. I supported the Government on the last occasion, and from what I have already said your Lordships

617
will not be surprised that I should support the noble Earl on this occasion. I was one of the people responsible for the 1909–10 Budget, and have not changed my opinion since those times, and it is clear that the estimate of capital value, whether arrived at by Death Duties or by a system of land valuation must, in my opinion, be the basis of the value for purchase. But I confess I find myself in agreement with the arguments that have already been used with regard to rateable value. Rateable value does not seem to me in any case to be a guide to the proper amount to be paid for purchase. I was rather surprised to hear the noble, Duke say that he cousidered rental value should be the basis of purchase value.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I must have expressed myself vary badly. It was not what I intended to say at all.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am afraid I misunderstood the noble Duke. The noble Viscount also understood him to say that the rent ought to be regarded as a considerable guide to the value for purchase. As a matter of fact in the case of much land in urban neighbourhoods it can be taken as no criterion at all, and even in agricultural districts it is a very unsafe criterion. One has known agricultural land to be sold at quite a small number of years' purchase on the rental of the farm, and also on the basis of a number of years purchase which might seem almost ludicrously high. Therefore for this particular purpose, although so far as Imperial taxation is concerned I am convinced it is right that the arbitrator should bear it in mind, I should be sorry to see him advised to pay any attention to rateable value. I trust that the Government may be able to agree to the insertion of these words.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I may say that in the observations that I recently made to the House I was under the impression that I was accurately expressing the pure and undiluted doctrine of what is sometimes known as "The People's Budget."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out the words "during the three years next preceding the assessment of compensation." The noble
618
Earl said: It is quite unnecessary for me to argue the case. It has been admitted by everybody that there is no virtue in the period of three years.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 33, leave out ("during the three years next preceding the assessment of compensation")—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will accept that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON VISCOUNT MIDLETON moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "the special needs of a particular purchaser or ". The noble Viscount said: During the Committee stage of the Bill the Lord Chancellor undertook to consider what words could be substituted which would carry out the intention. What he was anxious to avoid was monopoly value, and I do not think there is any one who contends for that. But undoubtedly cases do arise in which land has been purchased at a higher price than would otherwise be the case because it is adjacent to undertakings which are expanding It really would be unfair to rule out the fact that some one else is willing to give a larger sum. A man might actually have had an offer which cannot be considered. A larger offer can only come from the needs of a particular purchaser. It must be excluded and the land taken, not at the price which at any time for some years past a small owner might have got for it, but at a price which does not consider the actual sum which has been refused. The Lord Chancellor promised to consider whether words could be inserted to meet this point.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 1, leave out ("the special needs of a particular purchaser or")—(Viscount Midleton.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount is perfectly right in saying that I promised to consider the scope and propriety of the words "the special needs of a particular purchaser." To me, I confess, they seem reasonably plain, and I think all those who spoke in the debate, including the mover of the Amendment, agreed with the object, but one noble Lord expressed doubts as to whether the words were carefully chosen. I have considered the matter with the draftsman and he has come to the conclusion, and I confess after con-

619
sideration I agree with him, that it is not possible to suggest words which more clearly convey the meaning. This, as I tried to make clear, was that under special circumstances there is a particular purchaser (in the case of the infirmary I quoted) and in such a case as that the question of the value should not be considered. I think every one would agree that the case given requires to be treated, but we have not discovered words more precise, nor do I think the words are open to the charge of ambiguity. I really am anxious to relieve the apprehensions of the noble Viscount because our object is the same. I do not want to eliminate from consideration the case of an ordinary bona fide purchaser who might have an individual reason for making a bid, and if the noble Viscount would discuss the matter with the draftsman between now and the Third Reading I will try and be there and we will try to frame some form of words which will cover this case.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (5), to insert the following new subsection—
(6) The provisions of Rule (2) shal not affect the assessment of compensation for disturbance or any other matter not directly based on the value of land.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19, after subsection (5), insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5:
Provisions as to costs.
5—(1) Where the acquiring authority has made an unconditional offer in writing of any sum as compensation to any claimant and the sum awarded by an official arbitrator to that claimant does not exceed the sum offered, the official arbitrator shall order the claimant to bear his own costs and to pay the costs of the acquiring authority so far as such costs were incurred after the offer was made.
(2) If the official arbitrator is satisfied that a claimant has failed to deliver to the acquiring authority a notice in writing of the amount claimed by hlm giving sufficient particulars and insufficient time to enable the acquiring authority to make a proper offer, the foregoing provisions of this section shall apply as if an unconditional offer had been made by the acquiring authority at the time when in the opinion of the official arbitrator sufficient particulars should have been furnished and the claimant had been awarded a sum not exceeding the amount of such offer.
The notice of claim shall state the exact nature of the interest in respect of which compensation
620
is claimed, and give details of the compensation claimed, distinguishing the amounts under separate heads and showing how the amount claimed under each head is calculated.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON VISCOUNT MIDLETON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out the word "shall" and insert "may." The noble Viscount said: This is a question which was discussed in Committee. The local authority make a bona fide offer to an individual owner for his land. He has not had an opportunity of a full hearing, but he asks for a hearing, and if he does so he does so with a rope round his neck because he may have to pay all the costs. Conceive the position of a small man who has ample reason for believing that he has been made an offer which he can show to be inadequate. If he does not accept it he is to have the chance, perhaps, of £100 of costs being put upon him by the local authority. What is snore you put the arbitrator in a most unpleasant position, because the arbitrator on proceeding to give his award knows that unless he gives the claimant a sum which exceeds that which is offered he is going to saddle the unfortunate claimant with very heavy costs. I do not think it is right that there should be a position of that kind, more especially as the offer is made by a local authority who by all the rules must wish to get the land. I hope that having regard to these considerations the noble and learned Lord will accept this Amendment, leaving it always in the power of the arbitrator to do such justice as he thinks fit.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 20, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may")—(Viscount Midleton.)
EARL GREY: I should like to say one word in support of what has been said by the noble Viscount. I have in my mind a particular case which I think would have some bearing upon this matter. I know the case of an estate owned by trustees in a northern town, which two years before the war was valued under the Land Values Act at£46,000. The corporation now desire to purchase that estate, and sent their official valuer to value it. He happened to be one of the three valuers who put the value two years before the war at£46,000. The official valuer put the value at£36,000, and in private conversation he has admitted that in arriving at that figure he took into consideration the rents which it was possible to charge and the cost of the

621
houses. If valuers are going to take that sort of question into consideration in arriving at their valuations, and reduce their own valuation accordingly by 25 per cent., surely it ought not to be considered unreasonable for the trustees, whose duty it is to protect the interests of the estate, to go before an arbitrator. Therefore I hope that the Government will consider favourably this Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I confess that I never have seen that a very strong case in equity can be made out for this Amendment. Everybody agrees that it is desirable as far as possible to avoid the multiplication of these arbitrations, and that public policy dictates that as many cases as can reasonably be settled without the expense of a hearing should be so settled. The method adopted in the Bill is simply this: The authorities come forward and say to X., "We desire to take land and are prepared to offer you so much for it." X. "No, I won't take that figure; I prefer to take my chance of litigation and see if I can get more." I conceive that he is in exactly the same position as an ordinary litigant. There are cases where great public interest, intervenes, whore one might even have expected that he would find himself in a worse position; but he is in exactly the same position as if he were in the law courts. Suppose a man makes a claim against me, and I pay £200 into Court and say that that is sufficient to meet the claim. If he goes on with his litigation, and it goes against him, he does so at his own expense and he has to pay my costs also. I cannot see any reason in equity why similar proceedings should not be adopted in this ease. I do not, however, wish to prolong the discussion, and I do not know whether the suggestion which I am going to make, subject to consideration in the House of Commons, will meet the noble Viscount's views. I would suggest that we should leave in the word "shall," and insert after it the words "unless for special reasons he thinks proper not to do so." That, would give the Arbitrator a discretion, while not making it absolutely peremptory.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Like the noble and learned Lord, I have no desire to prolong discussion, and I am prepared to accept the Amendment he suggests.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps the noble Viscount will now move the Amendment, after "shall," to insert "unless for special reasons he thinks proper not to do so."
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 20, after ("shall") insert ("unless for special reasons he thinks proper not to do so ")—(Viscount Midleton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert: "and when such a notice of claim has been delivered the acquiring authority may, at any time within six weeks after the delivery thereof, withdraw any notice to treat which has been served on the claimant or on any other person interested in the land authorised to be acquired, but shall be liable to pay compensation to any such claimant or other person for any loss or expenses occasioned by the notice to treat having been given to him and withdrawn, and the amount of such compensation shall, in default of agreement, be determined by an official arbitrator."
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment will not cause your Lordships much trouble. It is only to meet the case that after a notice of claim has been delivered the acquiring authority, on payment of all costs, may withdraw if they desire to do so. There must be such power.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 37, after ("calculated") insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6:
Finality of award and statement of special cases
6—(1) The decision of an official arbitrator upon any question of fact, shall be final and binding on the parties, and the persons claiming under them respectively, but the official arbitrator may, and shall, if the High Court so directs, state at any stage of the proceedngs, in the form of a special case for the opinion of the High Court, any question of law arising in the course of the proceedings, and may state his award as to the whole or part thereof in the form of a special case for the opinion of the High Court
(2) The decision of the High Court upon any case so stated shall be final and conclusive, and shall not be subject to appeal to any other court.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I should like to ask my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack a question in regard to

623
Clause 6. I notice in the report of the debate in the Committee stage that he kindly undertook to consider the argument of Lord Bledisloe on an Amendment proposing to insert at the beginning of Clause 6 words to this effect: "On the application of the claimant to any person having an interest in the land." Has the noble and learned Lord anything to communicate with regard to that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The matter was considered in accordance with the pledge that I gave, but it was found that the language was modelled exactly on the language of the Arbitration Act which has worked very successfully.
Clause 8:
Saving of power to refer to arbitrator by agreement.
8.—(1) Nothing in this Act shall prevent, if the parties so agree, the reference of any question as to disputed compensation or apportionment of rent to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or to an arbitrator agreed on between the parties.
(4) Either party to a claim for compensation may require the Commissioners for Inland Revenue to assess the value of the land in respect of which the claim arises, and a copy of any such assessment shall be sent forthwith by the Commissioners to the other party, and a certified copy of such assessment shall be admissible in evidence of that value in proceedings before the official arbitrator.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 22, leave out ("so") and after ("arbitrator") insert ("under subsection (1) of this section").—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON VISCOUNT MIDLETON moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert "and the servant of the commissioners who made the valuation shall attend, if required, for cross-examination by the official valuer." The noble Viscount said: On this clause the Government intimated in Committee that they could see no objection to the official arbitrator cross-examining the gentleman who had made the valuation, but that they-saw great objection to the Inland Revenue valuers being cross-examined by outside parties. Taking that objection into account, I have another Amendment which is very nearly on the same lines as the one which I moved in Committee. The Amendment in its new form will, I understand, be acceptable to the Government.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 33, at end insert ("and the servant of the commissioners who made the valuation shall attend, if required, for cross-examination by the official valuer").—(Viscount Midleton.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount is quite right. The new words are acceptable to the Government.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORESTER LORD FORESTER moved, after Clause 8, to insert the following new clause—
". An official arbitrator may on the application of any person certify the value of land being sold by him to a Government department or public or local authority and the sale of the land to the department or authority at the price so certified shall be deemed to be a sale at the best price that can reasonably be obtained."
The noble Lord said: I moved an Amendment for this object in a somewhat different form on the Committee stage, but the noble Viscount, Lord Peel, who then replied for the Government, although he did not regard it without sympathy, could not accept it because it was outside the scope of the Bill. Since then I have endeavoured to get expert advice to enable me to bring the Amendment within the scope of the Bill, and I hope that I have succeeded in doing so. I submit that this Amendment is really necessary. Its object is to indemnify and safeguard by every possible means those landowners who are tenants for life and their trustees. I must refer once more to the point that was made by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. It is perfectly true, as everyone who knows anything about land knows, how very widely divergent are the valuations placed on pieces of land by experts—
VISCOUNT PEEL: I do not know whether the noble Lord would prefer to conclude his speech, but I was going to tell hint that the Government are prepared to accept his Amendment.
LORD FORESTER: I certainly do not wish unnecessarily to take up the time of the House.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 8, insert, the said new clause.—(Lord Forester.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

GOVERNMENT OF THE SOUDAN LOAN BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this Bill, for which I ask a Second Reading this afternoon, is one authorising the Treasury to guarantee the payment of interest on the loan to be raised by the Government of the Soudan. A White Paper has been presented to Parliament, dated July 26 last, giving a full explanation of the subject, but as it is one of some interest and the sum of money involved is by no means inconsiderable, I think it only respectful to your Lordships that I should say a word or two in detail following the lines of the Paper that has been presented to Parliament.
By the Government of the Soudan Loan Acts 1913–14 it was provided that the Treasury should guarantee interest at a rate not exceeding 3½per cent. on any loan raised by the Government of the Soudan for the purposes set out in the Schedule to the 1914 Act, not exceeding in the aggregate an amount sufficient to raise £3,000,000. The Schedule of that Act set out under three heads the various works for which this money was to be applied. In the first place the most considerable item was works for the purpose of irrigating the Gezireh Plain, to which £2,000,000 was allocated. Then there was a smaller sum of £800,000 applicable to the extension of the Soudan Railway system, and a smaller sum of £200,000 was provided far other irrigation works and contingencies.
The Schedule to the Bill which is now before your Lordships is as follows:—Works for the purpose of irrigating the Gezireh Plain, including the repayment of any temporary loan raised for those works under the last Act has been raised from £2,000,000 to £4,900,000. The extension of the Soudan Railway system money is a slight reduction on the last Act; it now stands at £700,000 instead of £800,000. The money asked for in regard to the Tokar irrigation and Railway Extension now stands at £400,000 instead of £200,000 in the last Act.
Your Lordships who are acquainted with Leal conditions will know that the Gezireh plain is situated between the Blue Nile and the White Nile immediately south of Khartoum, and the works for the purpose of irrigating it comprise a masonry darn or weir near Sennar on the Blue Nile, some
626
170 miles south of Khartoum, to hold up the level of the river, a main canal to carry the water by free flow from the dam to the land to be irrigated and a system of subsidiary canals to conduct the water throughout that land, the area of which, as the scheme was originally designed, was to be 100,000 feddans, a feddan being about the same area as an acre. In January, 1914, the sum of £500,000 was advanced to the Soudan Government by the National Debt Commissioners against bonds issued under the 1913 Act to enable a commencement to be made with the Gezireh irrigation works pending time amendment of the Acts and the flotation of the Loan. The works were begun, and when war broke out in 1914 arrangements were on foot for issuing an instalment of the Loan, but no issue was ever made, and the £500,000 has now been expended on the work which has been carried on slowly during the war upon the main canal and certain other portions of the scheme.
Further study of the scheme in view of the altered conditions attributable to the war showed that the area to be irrigated bad to be increased to make the scheme financially a safe enterprise for Government, while it should not be too large for the population and resources available. These considerations fixed the area to be irrigated at. 300,000 feddans instead of the 100,000 feddans originally contemplated. Apparently in the Soudan, as everywhere else, there is an immense increase in the cost of all materials and labour, and the estimates for the scheme, including interest during construction, now amount to £4,900,000. When the works were going to cost only £2,000,000 and money was a great deal cheaper, it was intended that the Soudan Government should provide out of its revenues the annual interest and sinking fund payments in respect of the Loan. This is no longer possible in view of the enormously increased annual charges in this respect and the strain thrown upon the Soudan Government's Budget by present conditions. It has therefore been necessary to include in the Loan £1,000,000 to provide for interest during construction of the works, and until the time when it is anticipated that the receipts derived by the Government from the scheme will be sufficient to support the annual charges.
Those of your Lordships who are interested in these subjects will be aware that criticisms have from time to time been

627
lodged against this scheme on certain grounds. There has been a considerable correspondence, I think in The Times, and these criticisms were considered by His Majesty's Government to be of such a nature that it was only right that an investigation should take place into the accuracy of the allegations brought against this scheme. A Commission was appointed by the Foreign Office to consider them and the Commission decided that the criticisms were entirely without foundation and should never have been made. Copies of the Commission's report have been laid in the Library of the House. The burden of the criticism was that Egypt would suffer by the abstraction of water from the Nile to meet the needs of this project in the Soudan. His Majesty's Government is satisfied that as a matter of fact the Soudan can be developed to the extent contemplated by this Bill without in any way prejudicing Egypt.
The second item in the Schedule to the Act of 1914, viz., "Extension of the Soudan Railway System, £800,000," was intended to provide for the repayment to the National Bank of Egypt of the advance of £800,000 which they made to the Soudan Government for the building of the extension of the Soudan Railways from Khartoum through the Gezireh to El Obeid. Since that time the Soudan Government has been able to make provision out of revenue for the reduction of the debt to £700,000, and this constitutes the second item in the Schedule to the new Bill.
The Tokar cotton-producing area is situated about sixty miles from Suakin and is flooded annually by the flood of the River Baraka. Cotton has been grown there for many years and the average annual yield is about 4,000,000 lb. of ginned cotton, but the industry is capable of improvement and development by the construction of a modern irrigation system and the provision of railway transport from Tokar to Port Soudan, the port of export of the country, by extending the hue from Suakin to Tokar, a distance of about 60 miles. In the schedule to the Act of 1914, these items were not specifically provided for, but an item of £200,000 for "other irrigation works and contingencies" was included in it. The development and improvement of the Tokar cotton-producing industry is a work of some importance, not only to the Soudan but to British cotton interests. The present schedule provides
628
for these works the sum of £400,000, which includes, in addition to the estimated cost of the works, an allowance for interest during construction for the reasons given above in the case of the Gezireh scheme.
Your Lordships will see that, although the amount of the Loan originally sanctioned is to be doubled, no new schemes are involved. The necessity of applying to Parliament for additional financial assistance is due to the conditions resulting from the war. The experimental cotton-growing areas in the Gezireh have been at work for a number of years and have produced a very valuable and satisfactory type of cotton which has sold at high prices in the Liverpool market. The Soudan Government believes that the results obtained from these experimental stations are a true index of the yield which may be expected from the whole area.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Hylton.)
LORD EMMOTE: My Lords, perhaps may be allowed to say one or two words in warm support of this Bill. I believe that this money will be well spent, and that it will prove of great advantage to the Soudan. I do not think it will be of any disadvantage to Egypt. On the contrary, I believe it will be of advantage to Egypt. It will certainly be of advantage to Great Britain if we get the produce that we hope, and therefore it will be of advantage to the British Empire as a whole. We are liable to forget in these tithes how enormously rapidly the trade of some of our Dependencies abroad was increasing before the war. In the years that I spent at the Colonial Office immediately before the war—I think in many respects they were the happiest in my life—it was a great pleasure to me to see how our tropical Dependencies were increasing in their import and export trade; it was being doubled in many of them in a few years time. I believe that a great increase of trade may be done in the Soudan if the means of communication and of irrigation are improved. The supply of cotton is likely to be a very serious factor in the future. The supply in America is decreasing; their own consumption of cotton is enormously increasing; the quantity, therefore, that is left for consumption in the other countries of the world is greatly diminishing. The quality of cotton being produced in the Soudan is, I believe, very high indeed; it has been most satisfactory in every way; and the more of this fine

629
quality of cotton that we can get from Egypt and the Soudan the better it will be for Lancashire, for Great Britain, and for the British Empire as a whole. I believe, therefore, that this money will be wisely spent, and I think it will assist materially in increasing our supplies of cotton. I have great pleasure in warmly supporting this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Commitee of the Whole Ho se.

GOVERNMENT WAR OBLIGATIONS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this is a Bill to make provision for the special obligations incurred on behalf of His Majesty's Government for the purposes of the present war, or in connection therewith. I am informed that the Bill concludes a series of War Obligations Bills passed during the war to cover undertakings given by His Majesty's Government which involved financial obligations extending beyond the financial year. If any such obligations involve actual expenditure, Estimates, as your Lordships are aware, are presented in due course. The present Bill is merely a means of obtaining at the earliest moment Parliamentary authority for what the Government has undertaken. I am authorised to say that no more general Bills of this kind will be presented.
If your Lordships glance at the Bill you will see that Clause 1 covers obligations, of a like kind to those covered by previous Bills, entered into in the period from August 8 last—when the last War Obligation Bill was passed—to the present date. The main obligations covered by it are £6,000,000 worth of bills drawn for the purchase of sugar. This obligation is purely technical, because no actual payment is involved as the bills are met by receipts from the sales of sugar. Clause 2 applies to a new head of obligation namely, that to Messrs. Pearson & Company in order to pay them the actual expenses they have incurred in boring for oil in the Midlands, up to a sum of £1,000,000 sterling. Clause 3 is declaratory, and brings within the definition of a "war litigation" certain guarantees given by the Board of Trade in connection with the flax crop in Ireland. The maximum liability, I am told, may be about £400,000,
630
but the actual payment required should be much less.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

WEST INDIAN COURT OF APPEAL BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords this Bill needs but a brief word of explanation. The proposal to establish a West Indian Court of Appeal, with a wider scope than the existing Windward Islands Appeal Court, assumed definite shape as the result of an inter-Colonial Conference held in Trinidad early in 1915. The Bill for which I now ask a second Reading was submitted to and concurred in by the various Administrations concerned. It provides for the constitution of a Court of Appeal for the Colonies of Trinidad and Tobago, British Guiana, Barbados, Leeward Islands, Grenada, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent, and power is taken by Order in Council to add any other Colony. As the proposed legislation affects several Colonies simultaneously it is necessary to proceed by Imperial Statute. The new Court of Appeal will take the place of the existing Windward Islands Court of Appeal constituted under the Act of 1899. The Court will consist of the Chief Justices of the Colonies to whom the Act applies, or, in the case of the inability of a particular Chief Justice to sit, power is given to the Governor of the Colony in question to appoint some duly qualified substitute. Power is also taken to appoint an additional Judge of the Court of Appeal, who shall be a barrister of not less than eight years standing. The expenses of the Court of Appeal, in so far as they are not met by fees, will be defrayed out of Colonial revenues. The Act will not affect the right of appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council except in so far as provision may be made by local legislation for appeals to be taken in the first instance to the new Court of Appeal.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

RESTORATION OF PRE-WAR PRACTICES (No. 3) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

WELLS PARTICULAR BAPTIST AND CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELS CHARITIES BILL.
NATIONAL TRUST CHARITY BILL.
BROOKE ROBINSON MUSEUM CHARITY BILL.
CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELS CHARITIES BILL.
EATINGTON WESLEYAN METHODIST CHAPEL PROPERTY BILL.
PLUMTRE HOSPITAL CHARITY BILL.

HEADCORN BAPTIST CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bills reported without amendment.
EDUCATION (COMPLIANCE WITH CONDITIONS OF GRANTS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

POLICE BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before six o'clock until three o'clock to-morrow