Sitting of 17 October 1918

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Commercial Gas Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Portsea Island Gas Light Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

SEPARATION ALLOWANCES.
Sir JOHN BUTCHER: I beg to present a petition on behalf of 5,375 inhabitants of the city of York, pressing upon the Government the urgency of adequately maintaining the dependants of those who are to-day serving the Empire by risking their lives, namely, soldiers' and sailors' wives, children, and others. Owing to the cost of living and the cost of commodities in general, we feel that at least a minimum of £1 per week should be paid to wives or other dependants and 7s. 6d. for each child.
COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 969 (Turks and Caicos Islands, Report for 1917) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

NEW WRITS.
For the Borough of South Shields, in the room of Cecil Algernon Cochrane, Esquire (Manor of Northstead).—[Captain Guest.]
For the Elgin District of Burghs, in the room of John Ebenezer Sutherland, Esquire, deceased.—[Mr. Gulland.]
For the County of Norfolk (Mid Division), in the room of William Lewis Boyle, Esquire, deceased.—[Colonel Sanders.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  WAR.

    EGYPT (CAPITULATIONS).
    Major GEORGE PEELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will say what steps are being taken in respect of the abolition or modification of the capitulations in Egypt?
    The ASSISTANT-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord R. Cecil): The Commission appointed at Cairo by the Egyptian Government in March, 1917, for the purpose of elaborating the legislative, judicial and administrative reforms which would be rendered necessary by the disappearance of the capitulations has made progress as rapidly as circumstances admit. It is the intention of the British and Egyptian Governments to come to an agreement with the Allied and neutral Powers, who are parties to the capitulations for the abolition of the latter, as soon as sufficient progress has been made in the preparation of a new judicial system to replace that at present in existence.
    Colonel YATE: Does not the fact that we are at war with Turkey ipso facto abolish these capitulations and leave us free to appoint British Courts in their place?
    Lord R. CECIL: I should not like to assent to that without consideration.
    Colonel YATE: Will the Noble Lord give it his consideration?

    RUSSIA.

      ARCHANGEL GOVERNMENT.
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information as to the temporarily successful attempt to upset Mr. Tchaikovsky's

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      Socialist Government at Archangel; and whether steps are being taken to see that Russian officers with our Forces do not use their position in any other manner than would be seemly in a British officer?
      Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information regarding the overthrow of the Tschiavosky Government in Archangel; whether British officers were concerned in the military plot; and, if so, whether they have been punished?
      Lord R. CECIL: On 5th September M. Tschaichowski's Government was overthrown by the commander of the Russian forces at Archangel, who captured the principal members of the Government and deported them to a neighbouring island. The Allied representatives immediately expressed strong disapprobation of these proceedings, and the Ministers were brought back on a British vessel and reinstated. With regard to the second part of the question, I understand that Russian officers serving in the Allied forces at Archangel are under exactly the same discipline as British officers. No British officers were engaged in this affair.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Was the Russian officer commanding at Archangel or were his subordinates in our pay?
      Lord R. CECIL: I should like notice of that question.

      TRANS-SIBERIAN RAILWAY.
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Trans-Siberian Railway is yet being operated under American management; whether he is aware that the American Government have capable men on the spot to do the work; and whether, if the Americans have not yet taken over the management, he will see that all the influence of His Majesty's Government is directed towards that end, without any restrictions on our part, at the earliest possible moment?
      Lord R. CECIL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and to the second part in the affirmative. With regard to the third part, the American and Japanese Governments are now considering the best method of managing the railway in question, and His Majesty's Government have announced their readiness to concur in any decision which those two Governments may take.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is His Majesty's Government supporting the use of those admirable engineer officials of the American Government?
      Lord R. CECIL: We are very desirous of seeing the use of any American officials that can be used. The attitude of the Government is expressed in the first part of my answer. They have announced their readiness to concur in any decision which those two Governments may take.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the attitude of the Japanese Government hostile to their use?
      Lord R. CECIL: Not that I know.

      MR. LOCKHART.
      Mr. R. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can inform the House as to the circumstances under which Mr. Lockhart was arrested by the Bolshevik Government, and as to the length of time he was kept in prison?
      Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. Lockhart and his party have arrived from Moscow; whether he can make a statement on the work and treatment of Mr. Lockhart; and for how many days was Mr. Lockhart imprisoned in Russia?
      Lord R. CECIL: Mr. Lockhart and his party are now on their way through Scandinavia. No statement regarding the work, imprisonment, and treatment of Mr. Lockhart can be made with advantage until his arrival in this country.
      Mr. KING: When does the Noble Lord expect that they will arrive in this country?
      Lord R. CECIL: I cannot tell to a day, but very shortly.

      ESTHONIA (CONSCRIPTION).
      Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, during September, he wrote to the representative in London of the Esthonian Provisional Government protesting against any attempt to enforce compulsory enrolment on Esthonians without their consent as usurpation and tyranny; whether he has information that the German Government has proposed, or attempted to impose, military conscription on Esthonians; and whether the principle of obtaining a nation's consent before exacting compulsory

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      service of its people is one to which the British Government gives its general adherence?
      Lord R. CECIL: The statements to which the hon. Member no doubt refers were that "His Majesty's Government repudiates emphatically the claim of the German Government to exercise any kind of sovereignty in or right to dispose of Esthonia. No peace will be satisfactory to this country which does not embody that principle. In the meanwhile any attempt by Germany to enforce compulsory enrolment or other oppressive laws on the Esthonians without their consent can only be regarded as usurpation and tyranny," and, in spite of the hon. Member, the Government adheres to that declaration.
      Mr. KING: Is the Noble Lord aware that he has not given any answer to the second part of this question: whether the German Government has proposed or has attempted Conscription?
      Lord R. CECIL: I am sorry if that part of the question was overlooked. We were informed by the Esthonian representatives that some such attempt had been made by the Germans.

      EVACUATION OF TERRITORY.
      Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Government or the Allies have discussed or assented to the sixth of President Wilson's fourteen points, which contemplates the evacuation of all Russian territory and an unhampered opportunity for Russian independent determination; if not, in what respects does British policy diverge from the declaration of President Wilson; and whether, in the event of an armistice with Germans, the withdrawal of British or Allied forces and of Czechoslovak troops from Russian territory will be undertaken?
      Lord R. CECIL: This is not a matter which can be discussed apart from the larger questions involved, about which no statement can be made at present.

      RUSSIANS IN ENGLAND (MR. CHRYSIN).
      Mr. KINGasked the Home Secretary whether it was on his orders that Mr. Chrysin, representative in England of the All-Russia co-operative consumers' societies, was on 9th September arrested and kept in prison till 20th Septem-
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      ber; whether he is aware that Mr. Chrysin refused to support the Russian Government after the signing of the Brest-Litovsk treaty; and whether, in view of Mr. Chrysin's record and the high position held by him in the co-operative movement, he will now offer an apology and suitable compensation to Mr. Chrysin?
      The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir G. Cave): This man was one of the associates of M. Litvinoff, and with him was placed under detention for a time in order to enable pressure to be put upon the Bolshevist Government to release Mr. Lockhart and other British subjects imprisoned in Russia. He was released on the 20th September, and left this country for Russia with M. Litvinoff on the 26th September. The answer to the last two parts of the question is in the negative.
      Mr. KING: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that since the Soviet Government came into power eleven months ago Mr. Chrysin was not associated at all with Mr. Litvinoff?
      An HON. MEMBER: Why did he go away with him?
      Mr. KING: Because he was sent. Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the association of these two gentlemen ceased a long time ago, and has he made inquiries as to whether it is not through personal and business animosity that this man was deported?
      Sir G. CAVE: My information is directly contrary to that of the hon. Member.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Who gave it to you?
      Mr. KING: Police spies.

    CHINA.

      DEPORTATION OF GERMANS IN SHAMEEN.
      Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has now received the reply from Pekin stating the date when the leases of the buildings belonging to the German Consulate, bank, post-office, and trading firms in the British Concession of Shameen, in China, were terminated and all the Germans turned out of Shameen?
      Lord R. CECIL: It has been found necessary to issue new Trading With the

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      Enemy Regulations in China to deal with the question of the leases of these German buildings in the British Concession on the Shameen, and these are now being prepared.
      Colonel YATE: When will they come into effect, and when will the Germans be turned out of Shameen?
      Lord R. CECIL: I cannot tell when they come into effect until they are ready.

      OPIUM.
      Mr. STEWARTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the stipulations of our agreement with China in regard to the cessation of the opium trade are being carried out by the Chinese Government; and whether there has been any increase in the local production of opium in China since the Indian import has ceased?
      Lord R. CECIL: The last six Provinces remaining open to the introduction of Indian opium under the 1911 agreement were examined in August, 1917, and reported free from opium cultivation. The 1911 agreement terminated on 31st December, 1917. His Majesty's Government have received no official information of any increase in the local production of opium in China since the termination of that agreement and the cessation of the Indian import.

    IRELAND.

      PRISONERS (DEFENCE OF THE REALM ACT).
      Mr. KINGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has been able to make any concessions to Irish prisoners imprisoned without trial; whether any visits from friends are now permitted; how many such prisoners have been arrested under the Criminal Law Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887, or under the Defence of the Realm Regulations since 17th May, 1918; how many are now in custody or internment; how many of these are in England; how many in Ireland; whether any of these or any other persons have been charged, brought to trial, or are to be brought to trial in connection with the alleged German plot; and whether the policy and practice of the Government remains as it did on 8th August last?
      The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Shortt): Certain concessions have been made to persons ordered to be interned in prisons under the Defence of the Realm Act. Visits from friends under certain conditions are now permitted. The number of such prisoners arrested since 17th May, 1918, under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887, is none, and under the Defence of the Realm Regulations is ninety-five; of these ninety-two are now interned in England and three have been released. It is not intended to put any person on trial as suggested in the question. I have nothing to add to what I stated in the House on the 8th August last.
      Mr. KING: With regard to the permission as to visits, is there only to be one visit every three months, as stated in the Press, or will they be more frequent?
      Mr. SHORTT: The visits will be in accordance with the regulations laid down.

      NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS.
      Mr. KINGasked the Chief Secretary whether he has granted an increase of pay to the national teachers; and whether the conditions of their service and pay will be soon reported on by the Special Committee?
      Mr. SHORTT: The question of the remuneration and conditions of service of national school teachers is at present being inquired into by the committees recently appointed by the Lord Lieutenant. It is not known when the committees will have completed their inquiries.
      Mr. HUGH BARRIEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when it is proposed to announce the decision of the Treasury in reference to the recommendation of the Commissioners of National Education that a war bonus on Civil Service terms should be granted to Irish teachers?
      The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Bonar Law): This question has been referred, by agreement, to the Conciliation and Arbitration Board, and I understand that it will be the subject of a hearing early next week.

      ARMS SURRENDERED (ULSTER).
      Mr. DILLONasked the Chief Secretary whether he will state where the arms of the Ulster Volunteers now are and in

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      whose custody they are; whether any conditions were attached to their surrender; and, if so, what these conditions were?
      Mr. SHORTT: I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave on the 15th inst to the question on this subject addressed to me by the hon. Member for the College Green Division of Dublin.
      Mr. DILLON: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in Ireland the impression is widespread that this surrender of the Ulster arms is a fraud and that there has been no genuine surrender at all?
      Mr. SHORTT: There are a great many widespread opinions in Ireland which are without foundation.
      Mr. DILLON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the serious mischief which has been done in Ireland by the impression, and do I understand him distinctly to decline to answer my question as to whether any conditions have been attached to the surrender?
      Mr. SHORTT: I stated the conditions on the 15th instant.
      Mr. DILLON: Oh, no, no!
      Colonel YATE: How many arms have been surrendered by the National Volunteers?
      Mr. SHORTT: I understand substantially all.
      Mr. DILLON: They have been all taken by force without conditions.

      HOUSING.
      Mr. SCANLANasked the Chief Secretary whether the Government have prepared a scheme for the provision of suitable houses for the workers in the towns and cities of Ireland; whether the Treasury have been requested to support such a scheme; and if he can say when the Government will begin to carry out in Ireland a scheme to settle the housing problem?
      Mr. SHORTT: I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject.
      Mr. SCANLAN: Has this matter of housing engaged the attention of the right hon. Gentleman at all?
      Mr. SHORTT: Yes, to a very considerable extent.

      CONSCRIPTION.
      Mr. BYRNEasked the Chief Secretary whether the Government have recently considered the advisability of withdrawing the Conscription proposals for Ireland?
      Mr. SHORTT: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar question asked on Tuesday by the hon. Member for North Somerset.
      Mr. BYRNE: Taking into consideration recent events, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether Conscription is now a war necessity or whether it will be enforced for political reasons to injure Ireland in the eyes of the world?
      Mr. SHORTT: I have nothing to add.

      IRISH CONVENTION.
      Mr. CLANCYasked the Chief Secretary whether the Regulation made under the Defence of the Realm Act under which certain documents relating to the proceedings of the Irish Convention may not be published has yet been repealed; if not, what is the reason for refusing to repeal it, especially in view of the fact that a general desire has been expressed by the members of the Convention for the publication of the documents; and if he will now consider the advisability of facilitating the immediate publication of the documents referred to?
      Mr. SHORTT: I have taken the opinion of members of the Convention, and they are not unanimous. On consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the regulation should not be repealed until it is certain that there is no chance of the Convention sitting again.
      Mr. CLANCY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the members of the Convention objected to the repeal of the Regulation?
      Mr. SHORTT: I cannot speak accurately from recollection, but I think a large majority was in favour of the repeal.
      Mr. BARRIE: Did the right hon. Gentleman receive a unanimous request from the Ulster Unionist members of the Convention in favour of the repeal of the Regulation?
      Mr. SHORTT: I have received the request, but whether unanimous or not I cannot say.
      Mr. DEVLIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reason why the Ulster Unionist members of the Convention have taken this action is because they contributed nothing to the Convention?
      Mr. SHORTT: I do not know.

      CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.
      Mr. BRADYasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the salaries of the joint secretaries to the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests in Ireland have been lately reduced by £100, respectively, from the figure fixed by the Treasury in 1885, after full investigation into the then work of the Department; whether the Commissioners were consulted previously, or at all, as to the propriety of this reduction; whether he is aware that they and their chairman, the Master of the Rolls, immediately on notification of it unanimously protested and pointed out that the greatly increased and steadily increasing work of the Department since 1885 would justify an addition rather than a reduction in their secretaries' salary, and that they on at least four subsequent occasions during the last two years unanimously renewed this protest; and if he will say whether any of them have sent in their resignations as a result of the neglect either to comply with their recommendations or to furnish any reasons for not giving effect to them?
      Mr. SHORTT: The facts are generally as stated. Some members sent in their resignations, some of whom, at my request, have kindly consented to withdraw.
      Mr. BRADY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1885, when the salaries were fixed, the amount of money under the control of the Commissioners was £450,000 and that to-day the amount under their control is something like £1,250,000 with a number of accounts varying from £1,000 to £1,200, and does he consider it is a reasonable thing to have reduced the salaries?
      Mr. SHORTT: I believe the figures are something like those stated by the hon. Member, but the whole matter was gone into very carefully and the decision arrived at.
      Mr. BRADY: If the facts are placed more fully again before the right hon. Gentleman, will he be good enough to communicate with the Treasury and submit the view that he is satisfied the reduction is ill-founded?
      Mr. SHORTT: I will consider anything the hon. Member puts before me.

    VENEREAL DISEASES.
    Mr. LEES-SMITHasked the Home Secretary how many women have been arrested under the Defence of the Realm Regulation 40D, and in how many cases convictions have been obtained?
    Sir G. CAVE: Up to the 8th October there had been 201 prosecutions under the Regulation. Convictions had been obtained in 102 cases, in fifty-one of which the defendants pleaded guilty. Three other defendants were bound over or placed on probation, and six cases were under remand when the Return was made.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: In view of the answer that in nearly one out of every two eases no conviction was obtained, may I ask if any arrangement has been made to give compensation to the women who have been subjected to this examination?
    Sir G. CAVE: I think the Return shows that the magistrates are very careful and do not convict except in very clear cases.
    Mr. DILLON: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give the House an early opportunity of discussing this abominable Regulation?
    Colonel Lord HENRY CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: In view of the futility of this Order, will the right hon. Gentleman withdraw it altogether?
    Sir G. CAVE: As a matter of fact the Regulation is being considered by a Committee, which will report in due course.
    Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: In view of the very widespread interest in this matter, will my right hon. Friend endeavour to expedite the Report of the Committee?
    Sir G. CAVE: The Committee has been asked to report as soon as possible.
    Mr. DILLON: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow the House an opportunity of discussing this matter before the Committee report, which may not be until after Christmas?
    Sir G. CAVE: That is not a question for me, but in any case it would be very undesirable to have a discussion while the Committee is considering the question.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that the Committee will report before Prorogation?
    Sir G. CAVE: I cannot of course do that. They have been asked to report as early as possible.
    Mr. DILLON: I beg to give notice that at the very earliest opportunity I will raise this question.
    Mr. LEES-SMITHasked whether the terms of reference of the Committee set up to inquire into Defence of the Realm Regulation 40D are confined to the modification of the Regulation or include also the question of its withdrawal?
    Sir G. CAVE: The Committee were appointed to consider the Regulation and what modifications (if any) should be made in its terms or in the procedure for enforcing it, and I do not think they would be precluded from considering the question of its withdrawal.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: As the Committee is considering the question of the withdrawal of this Regulation, and in view of the general hostility to it, will the right hon. Gentleman have it suspended until the Committee has reported? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
    Sir G. CAVE: No. The Cabinet has already given a decision on that point.
    Mr. ALDEN: If the Committee reported against the Regulation could the right hon. Gentleman in his own person withdraw it?
    Sir G. CAVE: I could not. It would have to be rescinded by Order in Council.

    ALIENS REPATRIATED.
    Colonel YATEasked the Home Secretary how many undesirable aliens have been repatriated since the beginning of August, 1918; and whether transport facilities have now been made available for the wives and families of Russian subjects who have returned to Russia rather than face enlistment in this country, especially those who have been receiving allowances here since the men's departure?
    Sir G. CAVE: About 1,650 aliens (including alien enemies) with their dependants have been expelled or repatriated since
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    the date named. Difficulties of transport still prevent deportation on a larger scale, and it is not yet possible to provide transport for the wives and families of Russians who have returned to their country.
    Colonel YATE: What steps have been taken to prevent the return to this country of the men who are now repatriated and deported?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: How many of those 1,600 were perfectly innocent British-born wives?
    Sir G. CAVE: I cannot give an answer to that, but I do not think any British-born wives have been deported.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Have they left the country voluntarily because life here was made impossible for them?
    Sir ELLIS HUME-WILLIAMS: What steps, if any, have been taken to see that those people are not people who could convey useful information to the enemy?
    Sir G. CAVE: Care is exercised in this respect, and no one is sent abroad who, in the opinion of the military authorities, could give useful information.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the position of the ex-aliens who are producing the film of the Prime Minister's life?

    DISORDERLY MEETING (WOOLWICH).
    Mr. CROOKSasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the representative character of the request that he should receive a deputation on the subject of the disorder which occurred at a meeting in Woolwich on the 6th July, and of the feeling that proper precautions were not taken to secure public order and freedom of speech, he will reconsider his decision not to grant an interview to the deputation?
    Sir G. CAVE: I carefully considered the request that I should receive a deputation in this matter, but for reasons which I gave to the London Labour party I came to the conclusion that no useful purpose would be served by such a deputation. I have again considered the matter, but must adhere to my view. I shall be glad to send my right hon. Friend a copy of my reply.

    METROPOLITAN POLICE.
    Mr. CROOKSasked the Home Secretary whether he will favourably consider making the wives of existing Metropolitan Police pensioners eligible for the new widow's pension in the event of their becoming widows?
    Sir G. CAVE: The widows of pensioners who rejoined for service during the War, and who were actually serving on 1st September, 1918, will be eligible for pensions, but it would not be practicable to include the wives of other members of the force who have retired on pension.
    Mr. ALDEN: Is he aware that there are many hundreds of these widows who are absolutely destitute and who are receiving charity on all hands, that their only method of obtaining any money whatever is to work in the various police courts, and that there is a large number of these who have no work whatever and are starving?
    Sir G. CAVE: I do not think that really arises out of the answer.
    Mr. ALDEN: But I want to know whether these pensions will be made retrospective?
    Sir G. CAVE: I could not deal with that. It is part of a very large question affecting pensions of all kinds.
    Mr. KINGasked the Home Secretary whether he will make a statement about the recent strike of members of the Metropolitan police?
    Sir G. CAVE: I hope to have an early opportunity of referring to this matter.
    Mr. KING: Is it not the fact that the right hon. Gentleman admitted his error so greatly that he submitted his resignation to the Prime Minister in this connection?

    PRISONERS OF WAR.

      CAMPS IN TURKEY.
      Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMSasked the Home Secretary if he can state whether a Dutch representative has visited any prisoner camps in Turkey during the adjournment; if so, whether his reports can be forthwith published; and if he can state, approximately, how many parcels are awaiting at Alexandria addressed to British prisoners and what it is proposed to do with them?
      Sir G. CAVE: Representatives of the Netherlands Minister at Constantinople have visited camps and hospitals in the neighbourhood of Constantinople, and their reports have been received.
      A Dutch inspector proceeded on the 19th August to visit the camps in the interior of Asia Minor, and it is known that he has been to Kedos, but no reports from him have yet been received. As my hon. and learned Friend is aware, His Majesty's Government are unable to publish the reports received from neutral representatives on internment camps, but I am glad to be able to state that the accounts given in the reports above-mentioned and in recent letters from prisoners show a substantial improvement in their conditions, due largely to the Turkish Red Crescent Commission which visited the camps in anticipation of the Dutch inspection.
      The number of parcels received at Alexandria for British prisoners of war in Turkey was 1,200 on the 15th August, the date of the last report received, and it is estimated that their number is now about 1,500. It is proposed to ship them by the repatriation vessel which is to embark British invalid prisoners of war at Scala Nova.
      Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: Is it not important that the repatriation should be started?
      Sir G. CAVE: A date has been arranged.

      BRITISH PRISONERS IN GERMANY.
      Brigadier-General CROFTasked the Prime Minister whether he will take immediate steps to make known to the public the whole of the sworn evidence concerning the treatment of British prisoners in Germany, and also the whole of the evidence with regard to the forcing of British prisoners to work behind the lines under shell-fire from British guns?
      Sir G. CAVE: My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The evidence referred to in the question is considered and tested by the Government Committee on the treatment by the enemy of British prisoners of war, over which Mr. Justice Younger presides, and the effect of the evidence is stated and extracts given in the reports of that Committee. It is the intention of the Government that the reports of the Committee

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      shall be made public as soon as received. The evidence itself is too voluminous to be published in full.
      General CROFT: Is it the intention of the Government to give the earliest possible date for the consideration of this question of the treatment of prisoners of war, which is of such intense interest to the country?
      Sir G. CAVE: That is a question for the Leader of the House.
      General CROFT: Then can the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House give us any information upon the subject?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I am quite sure we shall be glad to arrange for a discussion immediately there are the full facts to go upon, and I can scarcely say that at the present time we have all those facts.
      General CROFT: Owing to the fact that delay in this question must bring increased suffering to those concerned, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider giving a day, or half a day, early next week?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: My hon. and gallant Friend knows that we have just sent to the German Government a message on the subject, and the wiser course, I think, would be to await their reply.
      General CROFT: I will put this question down again next Monday.
      Colonel C. LOWTHER: Is there any reason for not immediately informing the German Government—
      Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members should not forget the number of questions there are on the Order Paper.

    CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
    Mr. SNOWDENasked the Home Secretary if he has received a complaint from George McMillan, employed in the Home Office scheme at Witton White-houses, Ewesley, near Morpeth, complaining of an unprovoked assault upon him by the agent at this camp; and will he say what steps are being taken to protect the men against such treatment?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Brace): The Committee has received a
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    complaint from this man, but the agent contradicts his statements, and in view of McMillan's record, both at Ewesley and at Princetown, the Committee cannot accept his version of the occurrence. He has been sent back to Princetown.
    Mr. SNOWDENasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state why Thomas Farnworth, a conscientious objector who has been offered the exceptional employment scheme, has had the condition imposed that he cannot take employment in the cotton trade, in which he is a qualified operative, and that he must seek employment at least 25 miles away from his home; will he say why these conditions have been imposed in this case seeing that they are no part of the regulations governing the employment of conscientious objectors under this scheme; and will he withdraw the conditions in this case?
    Mr. BRACE: The conditions named have been imposed because Farnworth is physically fit for more active work than cotton-spinning, and because difficulties have been created where men have been allowed to take up exceptional employment in the neighbourhood of their old homes. Farnworth himself proposed some months ago that when he was qualified for exceptional employment he should take up work as a farm labourer. Under the Rules the Committee have full discretion to grant or withhold authority to take up exceptional employment, and I cannot withdraw the conditions imposed in this case.

    IMPERIAL CONFERENCE (BLUE BOOK).
    Mr. MACMASTERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state when the Report of the proceedings of the recent Imperial Conference will be placed upon the Table and printed for the information of Parliament and the public?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Hewins):I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by me on 15th October. [OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th October, col. 3.]

    PETROL.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies

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    whether he is satisfied that every possible economy is now being effected in the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force in regard to the use of petrol; and, if not, what further steps he proposes to take for that purpose?
    Mr. HEWINS: Suggestions have been made to the Departments mentioned as to various directions in which economies may be effected, and good results have been obtained. Proposals for more effective control, by which it is hoped to secure further economies, are under consideration. The hon. Member may rest assured that everything possible will be done consistent with the maintenance of Naval, Military, and Aerial efficiency.

    COLONIAL PREFERENCE.
    Mr. G. TERRELLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether India and Egypt were parties to the arrangement in regard to Colonial Preference; and what articles were to be subject to preference; (2) if he can give any information as to the agreement arrived at with the self-governing Dominions and Colonies as to Colonial Preference?
    Mr. HEWINS: I cannot add anything to the statement made on 1st August in reply to a question addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. India was represented at the Conference.
    Mr. TERRELL: May I ask my hon. Friend if we are to consider that this arrangement is something secret and something which is not to be disclosed to the public or the Governments concerned?
    Mr. HEWINS: No; I do not think my hon. Friend quite understands the constitution of the British Empire. [HON. MEMBERS: "Explain it!"] There is no question of an arrangement. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Imperial Conference, at successive meetings extending over a great many years, passed a resolution in favour of Preference within the British Empire. What has now been done is to bring the action of the United Kingdom into conformity with what has been agreed upon unanimously, with the exception of the United Kingdom, at these former Imperial Conferences. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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    described fully and accurately exactly what had taken place, and I have nothing whatever to add to his statement.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Are we to understand then that nothing has taken place?
    Mr. HEWINS: On the contrary, my hon. Friend has to understand that something very important has taken place.
    Mr. TERRELL: May I ask if the hon. Member cannot tell us what it is which is so importaant which has taken place?
    Mr. HEWINS: What it is that is important that has taken place is that the British Government is in conformity with the resolutions formerly passed by various Imperial Conferences, that on any duties now imposed, and on any duties hereafter to be imposed, preference will be given to the parts of the British Empire.
    Mr. C. ROBERTS: Are we to understand that he implies that India is a party to the agreement?
    Mr. HEWINS: My right hon. Friend is to understand exactly what I have said—the whole of the British Empire. India was represented at the Imperial Conference.
    Mr. H. SAMUEL: May I ask whether it is within the competence of the British Government to decide what duties shall be imposed without reference to Parliament?
    Mr. HEWINS: It is perfectly competent for the British Government to decide anything it likes. It has absolute power in the matter.
    Mr. TERRELL: May I ask if he can state the amount of the preference which he says is to be given?
    Mr. HEWINS: I have already stated that I have nothing whatever to add to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I beg to give notice that I will raise this question on the Adjournment to-night.

    GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (OFFICE ACCOMMODATION).
    Captain CARR-GOMMasked the First Commissioner of Works whether any, and, if so, what, steps have been taken towards the commandeering of the Adelphi estate for the purposes of the Air Board; whether he is aware of the dis-

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    satisfaction felt at the threatened loss of this property, which is full of priceless relics of the work of the Adam Brothers; and whether, in view of this, the Committee can make a fuller inquiry into the matter?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Sir Alfred Mond): There is no intention, and never has been, to commandeer the Adelphi estate for the purposes of the Air Board or any other purpose. Certain premises forming part of the Adelphi estate, and situated in Adam Street, have been requisitioned for the purposes of additional office accommodation urgently required for the Air Ministry. Dissatisfaction is always felt at any proposal to requisition, but the needs of the fighting Departments of the nation must be the first consideration of the Committee. The property in question contains very little work by the Adam Brothers, and any such work will be adequately protected, as in the case of all decorations in requisitioned buildings. The Committee caused the fullest inquiries to be made before arriving at a decision on this matter, and it is not proposed to reopen the question.
    Colonel YATE: Does the part commandeered include the premises of the Society of Arts?
    Sir A. MOND: No; it does not.
    Captain CARR-GOMMasked whether there are now any applications for increased office accommodation awaiting the sanction of the Cabinet Committee on office accommodation; and, if so, how many there are, and which Government offices are making these applications?
    Sir A. MOND: Yes, Sir, six; three from the War Office, and one each from the Ministry of Food, Ministry of Shipping, and Allied Maritime Transport Council.
    Mr. WHITEHOUSE: Is it true that the Department which deals with the bestowal of honours upon civilians has applied for enlarged office accommodation?

    VOLUNTARY PENSIONS FUND.
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Pensions Minister what is the amount of the Voluntary Fund; how many applications have been received for grants; and how many have been made?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen): The contributions received up to the 16th October, 1918, amount to £470,195. Promised subscriptions raise this total to over £500,000. In the same period 12,435 applications for grants have been received by my Department. Grants have been made in 4,047 cases and refused in 1,412. The remainder of the cases are at present under inquiry.
    Sir C. HENRY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman state whether it is the intention of the Ministry of Pensions to make themselves responsible for any other voluntary fund?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I am not aware that my right hon. Friend proposes anything of the kind.
    Mr. PETOasked the Pensions Minister whether it is a fact that officers and men of the Mercantile Marine are to be excluded from participation in the fund which he is now raising; and, if so, whether he can sate the reason for this decision?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: The question as to whether officers and men of the Mercantile Marine were eligible for assistance from the King's Fund was raised as soon as the King's Fund was inaugurated, and in view of the fact that the appeal for the King's Fund was made for disabled officers and men of His Majesty's Navy, Army, and Air Service, it was ruled that the Mercantile Marine did not come within the category, and, moreover, they were included in and eligible for assistance from King George's Fund for Sailors.
    Since this decision was given the Mercantile Marine ratings under naval discipline have become pensionable under the Government scheme. In view of this, my right hon. Friend proposes to refer the question of the eligibility of the Mercantile Marine for the benefits of the King's Fund to the trustees of that fund for decision.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Pensions Minister whether he proposes to bring pensions to the children of widows into line with the separation allowances of children of serving men?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: The question is at present under consideration.
    Mr. HOGGE: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say what he means by that? Is the Ministry suggesting a change to the Treasury, and is it the view of the Ministry that the pensions payable to the children of widows should be the same as the allowances to the children of wives?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I mean exactly what I said.
    Mr. HOGGE: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us what he means by what he says? He says the question is under consideration. Will he tell us whether the view of the Ministry is that the pensions payable to the children of widows is to be the same as the allowance payable to the children of wives?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I have nothing to add to what I have said already.
    Mr. NEEDHAMasked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that the conditions set out in Circular 102, whilst presumably giving 7s. 6d. per week extra to the married man receiving treatment or training and living at home, limit the grant very seriously; and whether it is intended to make any alteration in Condition (c) of the circular?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: A revised Circular 102 is about to be issued, considerably modifying Condition (c) of the original circular. I may, however, remark that it will still be necessary to examine each case on its merits, with reference to the pre-war standard of living, as the extra grant is not a flat-rate addition to the ordinary allowance.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it a fact that this grant of 7s. 6d. is so hedged round with restrictions that nobody can get it?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: There have been restrictions, but the principal one is Condition (c), and that is now being removed.
    Sir GEORGE TOULMINasked the Pensions Minister whether he has had brought to his notice the contrast between the means of subsistence afforded by the allowances to the wives and families of the fighting forces and the comforts available for the members of families engaged in civilian employment; whether he is
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    aware that the disproportion is increasing; whether he recognises the effect of the contrast upon men returning after years of strenuous exertion and self-sacrifice; and whether he is prepared to recommend revised allowances which will fully compensate for the rise in the cost of living during the War?
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Pensions Minister if he can yet state what increases are to be made in the separation allowances for the dependants of sailors and soldiers, and the date from which they will become effective?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): I have been asked to reply to these questions. I can add nothing to the statement made yesterday by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Sir G. TOULMIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the dissatisfaction is most acute with the provision made in reference to cases where wives are entirely dependent upon this small allowance and are unable to work?
    Mr. FORSTER: My right hon. Friend said yesterday the Cabinet had considered the question, and it was hoped their decision would be announced to-day or to-morrow.
    Sir G. TOULMIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether those wives are included?
    Mr. FORSTER: I think if the hon. Gentleman will wait and see—
    Mr. SUTTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that soldiers' wives are now organising themselves and protesting against the small pay they are receiving?
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state that all pensions for any disability in previous wars have been brought into line with the new Warrant?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I am sending my hon. Friend copies of the Royal Warrants dated respectively the 17th April, 1918, and the 12th September, 1918, which disclose the extent to which pensions of former wars have been brought into line with pensions of the present War.
    Mr. HOGGE: Can my hon. Friend say what steps the Government are taking to

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    make known to the men who have previously been awarded pensions that this new increase is available for them?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: It has been published abroad generally by circular and by speeches, and also it has been announced in this House.
    Mr. HOGGE: How can that be when the decision was only come to a few days ago?
    Mr. BLISSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that discontent is caused by the recent Treasury interpretation of Section 6 of the Superannuation Act of 1887, by which a deduction of 10 per cent. is made from the pay of discharged officers employed in Government offices provided their disability pension, called retired pay, and salary together amount to £400 per annum; and whether he will have this matter reconsidered?
    Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury): The Treasury are advised that the deduction in question is necessary under the Statute.
    Mr. BYRNEasked the Pensions Minister when it is proposed to increase the scale of pensions to discharged soldiers and sailors and the dependants of those killed during the War?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: As I informed the hon. Member for East Edinburgh yesterday, this matter is now under consideration.
    Mr. BLISSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is yet in a position to state if it has been decided to pay gratuities to officers of the Royal Naval Division on the same lines as those payable to Army officers under Article 497 of the Army Pay Warrant?
    Mr. PETOasked whether on the conclusion of the War and their active service being finished, commissioned officers of the military forces will be entitled to 124 days' pay for the first year of service or part of the year and 62 days' pay for each subsequent year of service or any part of a year; whether similar provision is made for commissioned officers of the Royal Naval Reserve Forces; and, if hot, whether, in consideration of their services during the War, he will favourably consider similar provision being made in their case?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): The question of extending to temporary naval officers the payment of a gratuity similar to that payable to temporary Army officers is one concerning which we have been in communication with the Treasury for some considerable time past. I am not in a position to announce a decision.
    Mr. PETO: May I ask if the Admiralty are in favour of claims being put forward for no distinction in treatment between the Royal Naval Reserve and the officers temporarily engaged in other parts of the Service?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I should hesitate to prejudice in advance the view which the Treasury might take.

    DISCHARGED SERVICE MEN.
    Major CHAPPLEasked the Pensions Minister whether he will consider the desirability of establishing in Scotland an institution on the lines of the Chelsea Hospital, in view of the increasing number of discharged and demobilised sailors and soldiers that have to be dealt with in the North?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: If my hon. and gallant Friend refers to the awarding of pensions which now takes place at Chelsea Hospital, I am not prepared to consider his suggestion, as the centralisation of awards is in present circumstances believed to be the only satisfactory method of securing uniformity. Chelsea Hospital, as an institution for the reception and care of veteran soldiers, is under the control of the War Office, and any question of founding a similar institution in Scotland should be addressed to that Department.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Pensions Minister what steps he proposes to take to ensure the proper re-employment of discharged and disabled men at fair wages, irrespective of any pension to which they may be entitled?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: Arrangements have been made by the Minister of Labour, in which I have concurred, whereby any question as to the propriety of the wage payable to a discharged disabled man may be referred by either employer or man for adjudication to the local advisory committee attached

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    to each Employment Exchange. This Committee will either arbitrate on the case or will pass it, to one or other of the special bodies (such as the local technical advisory committees or trade boards) which have been constituted by the trade for the purpose, if such have been formed in the district concerned. Employers and employed are equally represented on both classes of body, and I look to the judgment of the trade to reduce to a minimum any tendency to exploit the pension of the disabled man.
    Mr. PENNEFATHER: Are any provisions to be made for securing that these discharged men are engaged in suitable numbers in each industry?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: Yes, that is precisely what these advisory boards are doing at the present time.

    WOMEN'S WAR SERVICES (PENSIONS).
    Mr. P. A. HARRISasked the Pensions Minister whether members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps, the Women's Royal Navy Corps, and the Women's Auxiliary Flying Corps who are incapacitated because of service overseas either through shell shock or other causes are entitled to pensions; and, if not, whether he will consider making representations to the Treasury to include them in the Royal Warrant?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: Members of these auxiliary services do not come within the Warrants administered by the Ministry of Pensions. They are, I understand, entitled to compensation under the Injuries in War Act, for which they prefer their claims against their respective Departments.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there are many women who have been overseas and have suffered from being under fire who have received no pension? Does he consider it right that women should be in a worse position than men when they volunteer for service overseas?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I do not think it at all right, but they have their remedy now through their respective Departments.
    Mr. HARRIS: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider bringing them in the same position as men?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I will certainly consider it.
    Mr. PRINGLE: In what way do they obtain their remedy from those Departments?
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I have already said, under the provisions of the Injuries in War Act.

    PRISONERS AND GUNS (WESTERN CAMPAIGN CAPTURED).
    General CROFTasked the Prime Minister if he will state the total number of prisoners and guns captured by the British, French, American, and Belgian Armies, respectively, on the Western Front during the year up to date; the respective totals of prisoners and guns captured by all the Allies on all fronts during the same period; and also the grand total of enemy prisoners captured by the Allies?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Macpherson): My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. A full statement giving information on these points will be made shortly.

    GERMAN ARMIES (WANTON DESTRUCTION).
    Mr. MACMASTERasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government and the other Governments of the Allies have officially notified the German Government that Germany will be held responsible in damages for the wanton destruction of French and Belgian cities and other property by the German armies, and that full reparation therefor will be demanded and exacted from the German nation as one of the conditions of peace?
    Lord R. CECIL: This matter is at present the subject of discussion between the Allies. The intimation on this point in President Wilson's last Note, with which His Majesty's Government are in hearty agreement, will not be forgotten by my hon. Friend.

    MOTOR TRANSPORT REPAIR DEPOT, CIPPENHAM.
    Captain CARR-GOMMasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recent alteration in the War situation any change has been made in the arrangements for constructing a motor transport lorry repair depot at Cippenham, near Slough; and, if so, will he make a statement on this subject and allow the House to discuss it?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The answer to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question is in the negative, and the latter part does not, therefore, arise.

    BAKU (WITHDRAWAL OF BRITISH TROOPS).
    Mr. BLISSasked the Prime Minister if he is in a position to give any information as to the safety of the British troops who recently evacuated Baku, and their present position?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. As has already been announced in the Press, the British troops who were in Baku were, in spite of considerable losses, successfully withdrawn after having made a heroic resistance to greatly superior forces. It would not be in the public interest to state their present position in more detail.

    MILITARY SERVICE.

      MEN OVER FORTY-THREE YEARS OF AGE.
      Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the situation in France, His Majesty's Government have considered the possibility of stopping the recruiting of men over forty-three years of age and the consequent break up of their businesses?
      The MINISTER of NATIONAL SERVICE (Sir Auckland Geddes): My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The policy with regard to recruiting in relation to the situation by sea, on the land, and in the air is continuously before the Government. So far I am unaware of any ground for relaxing in any way our effort to maintain our forces at full strength.
      Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can nothing be done to stop the recruiting of single-busi-
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      ness men over forty-three, in view of the change in the situation? I press for an answer to that question.
      Mr. SPEAKER: That is the same question as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has on the Paper.

    LUXURY DUTY (WITHDRAWAL).

      STATEMENT BY MR. BONAR LAW.
      Mr. HOGGEasked the Prime Minister when the Report of the Luxury Tax Committee is to be discussed?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: The Report would naturally be discussed in connection with a Bill to impose the Duty. I shall state the intentions of the Government in regard to this in answer to a Private Notice question of which I have received notice to-day.
      Mr. HOGGE: Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman give me an answer to the question that is on the Paper?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: Because my hon. Friend has not asked the question.
      Mr. HOGGE: Arising out of the answer of my right hon. Friend, can he tell us what the Government propose to do?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I will give an answer to that question later.
      Colonel C. LOWTHER: Is it not the fact that this tax is a dismal failure in France?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: The French Finance Minister does not think so.
      Mr. ACLAND(by Private Notice) asked whether the Government propose this Session to make progress with the Luxury Duty?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: During the Recess the preliminary steps necessary to the introduction of this Bill have been largely taken; but, in view of the present situation, I do not think that I should be justified in asking the House, at this stage of the Session, to devote the time which would be required to pass it. I have very reluctantly come to this decision. I trust, however, that the complicated and arduous work which has been performed by the members of the Select Committee—to whom I desire to express the warm thanks of the Government—will not be

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      thrown away, for I have every hope that such a tax will be included in next year's Budget.
      Mr. PRINGLE: May I ask whether the situation to which he refers is the military situation or the political situation?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I really do not think that the hon. Member with his knowledge of the House of Commons can have any doubt on the subject. At all events, the conclusion to which I came was that I could not ask the House in the present state of things to proceed with this tax.

    ENEMY ALIENS.
    General CROFTasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet considered the petition presented at 10, Downing Street, on 24th August, by a deputation representing several great societies and signed by over a million adults, which prayed for the internment of all enemy aliens; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The petition has been received and considered. The internment of alien enemies is being dealt with in accordance with the policy of the Government which was announced in the House of Commons on the 11th July. That policy included the careful review and drastic revision of all exemptions, and this work has been taken in hand by the Advisory Committee and is already far advanced.
    General CROFT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many internments in fact have taken place—how many thousands?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: No, I cannot. I must have notice.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is anything being done by the Government to stop this campaign of panic?

    BRITISH ARMIES IN FRANCE (DISPATCHES).
    General CROFTasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet received any dispatches from the. Commander-in-Chief of the British Armies in France with reference to operations this year; and, if so, when their publication may be expected?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: A dispatch will be published in the course of the next few days.

    DISCHARGED SOLDIERS (TREATMENT).
    Lord HENRY CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the failure of the Pensions Ministry to secure either adequate treatment or training for the discharged soldiers, he will appoint a Committee to inquire into the reason of the failure?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I cannot agree to the statement contained in the first part of my Noble Friend's question. The answer to the second part, therefore, is in the negative.
    Mr. HOGGE: Does my right hon. Friend know the proportion of men who are now under treatment, and the number of men who could receive treatment but for the inadequacy of the provision; and does he, knowing those facts, say that the first part of this question is inaccurate?
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only one in three of the discharged soldiers is receiving adequate treatment, and that only one in ten is receiving any training?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Clearly, my Noble Friend cannot expect me to have the figures in a case of this kind; but I am satisfied that all that can be done is being done by the Pensions Ministry.
    Mr. PRINGLE: How can the right hon. Gentleman say that the treatment is adequate if he does not know the figures?
    Mr. HOGGE: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that these figures are the figures of the Ministry of Pensions?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We must get on to the next question.

    GALLIPOLI EXPEDITION.
    Mr. NEEDHAMasked whether a special medal or some other form of recognition will be awarded to the forces which took part in the Gallipoli expedition?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The Government have carefully examined this question, and certain proposals have been

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    forwarded for the consideration of the Governments of the self-governing Dominions. When their replies have been received an announcement will be made on the subject.

    ALLIED POWERS.

      NAVAL COMMAND.
      Mr. HOGGEasked the Prime Minister whether the question of an admiralissimo for the Allied fleets has ever been considered?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer is in the negative.

      PRESIDENT WILSON'S POINTS.
      Colonel Sir HAMAR GREENWOODasked whether the Allied Powers have ever discussed and accepted in an Allied conference President Wilson's fourteen points as a basis of negotiation with the Germans?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer is in the negative.
      Mr. TREVELYANasked the Prime Minister whether the British Government have yet definitely informed the Government at Washington that they accept President Wilson's speech of 8th January as expressing the policy on which they too would be ready to conclude peace?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: His Majesty's Government are in constant communication with the Government of the United States, but I do not think it desirable to make any further statement at present.
      Mr. PRINGLE: Has the Ambassador returned to the United States?
      Mr. LEES-SMITH: Would the right hon. Gentleman clear up a good deal of misapprehension by saying whether the President's fourteen points have been accepted by the British Government?
      Mr BONAR LAW: I shall always be glad to clear up misapprehensions, but I am also anxious not to add to them.

    MINISTRY OF PROPAGANDA.
    Captain CARR-GOMMasked if it is proposed to continue the work of the Ministry of Propaganda in any shape or
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    form after the conclusion of hostilities; and, if so, what are the functions proposed for this Ministry after the War?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part does not therefore arise.

    GALLERIES, HOUSE OF COMMONS.
    Colonel Sir JAMES CRAIGasked the Prime Minister whether lie will grant time for discussion of the Motion standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for East Down?—[That this House is in favour of all available galleries being opened to men and women equally and impartially, and requests Mr. Speaker to make arrangements accordingly.]
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I propose to give an opportunity for this discussion on Wednesday next.

    IRISH POLITICAL PRISONERS.
    Mr. KINGasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the possibility of Great Britain being party to a Peace Conference at an early date, it is intended to make a fresh attempt to grant autonomy to Ireland; and whether he now proposes to release all Irish political prisoners against whom no charge has been made, and to consult the leaders of all parties, including Sinn Fein, so as to reach an agreed settlement?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I can make no statement in regard to the first part of the question, and the answer to the second part is in the negative.

    POST-WAR EMPLOYMENT (ARRANGEMENTS).
    Mr. G. TERRELLasked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the possibility of an early peace, any committee had been appointed with authority to wind up contracts for the manufacture of munitions of war and to award compensation; and (2) whether, in view of the possibility of an early peace, he can state definitely what arrangements have been made to find employment for workpeople now engaged on war work in munition factories?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The matters referred to by my hon. Friend have been long tinder the consideration of the Government, but it is not possible at present to make a statement about them.
    Mr. TERRELL: Are we to understand that in the event of an early peace no one has authority to deal with these contracts, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very great complication and difficulty is likely to arise unless this matter is dealt with?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The hon. Member may, I think, give us credit for assuming that all that has not been overlooked by the Government.
    Mr. TERRELL: When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement on the subject?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: My hon. Friend cannot have given much consideration to the subject! How is it possible to state in answer to a question the very detailed and difficult work which is being done in this matter?
    Mr. TERRELLasked the Prime Minister whether a deputation of manufacturers, convened under the auspices of the National Union of Manufacturers on the 30th July last, represented to him that on the declaration of peace many firms now engaged in war work would be greatly disorganised, and would find it difficult to continue to give employment to their workpeople, and with a view to the urgency and importance of putting an end to the present uncertainty they desired the Government to make a declaration of the national economic policy as it affects the Empire, the Allies, and neutral and belligerent countries; whether the same deputation recorded its opinion that the Government should so frame its policy that the reconstruction of industries should not be hindered or threatened by undue foreign competition or dumping; and whether the Government is now prepared to make any definite statement in regard to the matter?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: A statement on the subject referred to in my hon. Friend's question will be made by the Government, and I hope next week to be able to fix a day for it.

    HOUSING BILL.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Prime Minister when the Housing Bill will be introduced?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: It is being introduced to-day.

    WAR PLEDGES BILL.
    Mr. ROWNTREEasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the growing unrest in industrial circles due to the uncertainty regarding the intentions of the Government regarding their War Pledges Bill; and whether he can now fix a date for its introduction?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I regret that I am not in a position to make any statement at present.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate when a statement on this subject is likely to be made, in view of the great change in the situation?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That seems to me to be in precisely the same position.

    HIGH-POWER CARS (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
    Mr. HOUSTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the result of his promised inquiry into the use of high-power motor cars by Government Departments; and is he aware that numbers of these high-power cars can still be seen daily in use in London, resulting in the unnecessary use of petrol?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Steps are being taken to control the use of motor cars by Government Departments, and definite machinery for the purpose will, I hope, be in operation immediately.
    Mr. HOUSTON: Did my right hon. Friend not promise on the 29th of July that he would inquire into the whole question of the use of motor cars by Government Departments, and he is aware that there is apparently very little diminution in the use of high-power cars, and has he discovered what is the physical or mental defect which prevents them riding in small-power cars?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: A good many of the statements of the hon. Member are accurate. I did promise to look into it and I have done so. I stated that definite machinery of control has now been agreed upon.

    ST. KILDA (BOMBARDMENT).
    Mr. HOGGEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can give any details of the bombardment of St. Kilda?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: A submarine opened fire on St. Kilda on the 15th May last at long range and damaged the church and other buildings. Such steps as are considered practicable have been taken to deal with the possibility of a similar attack.
    Mr. HOGGE: Were there any other casualties?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot answer that question.

    ROYAL MARINE LABOUR CORPS.
    Colonel Sir H. GREENWOODasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that several non-commissioned officers of the Royal Marines, having been placed in category C owing to their health breaking down on service overseas, were subsequently given the option of transferring as privates to the Royal Marine Labour Corps or taking their discharge; whether, having decided on the latter course, their discharges were marked "Services no longer required"; and if, in view of the fact that a false impression may be conveyed by these words, he will give instructions that new discharge papers may be prepared which will show the true reason for which these men's services were dispensed with?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Prior to the 11th May, 1918, the only terms of discharge customary in such cases was "Services no longer required," but, following on an Army Order of March last, a new term was introduced to meet such cases, as it was felt the former might be misinterpreted into a term of reproach. The term now used is "Surplus to naval requirements." If my hon. and gallant Friend can supply me with further particulars of the cases now in question, the matter will be inquired into.

    DOCKYARD PENSIONERS.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the distress generally amongst dockyard pensioners owing to the increased cost of living; and is he now in a position to hold out any hope that their case will, like that of the old age pensioners, receive consideration by the Admiralty?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: As I informed my hon. Friend in reply to previous questions on this subject, the Admiralty has no power to augment the pensions of dockyard workmen, which are awarded by the Treasury under Superannuation Acts applicable to the Civil Service as a whole.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Did not the right hon. Gentleman say exactly twelve months ago that he would consider the representations made to him by members interested in the subject, and that he would himself ask the Treasury to grant them?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: A reply, as my hon. Friend knows, was sent to those representations.
    Colonel WHELER: Are we to take it, then, that this class of men will get no help from the Admiralty at all?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: We have no right to make any charge on the Navy Votes, whatever our sympathies may be. It is a matter for the Superannuation Act and the Treasury.

    ROSYTH NAVAL DEPOT (SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION).
    Mr. PONSONBYasked what arrangements have been made for the temporary school accommodation for children in the Rosyth district?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The matter is one to which we have been giving close attention for some time past, being anxious that temporary provision at any rate should be made upon the spot for the younger children particularly needing the same before the winter sets in. We have recently made a proposal to the Dunfermline School Board suggesting the immediate adaptation of two existing temporary buildings which could be acquired quickly and converted and equipped for temporary school purposes. In a letter

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    dated 14th October the school board state that they are not prepared to agree to our proposal. We shall continue negotiations with a view, if possible, to the immediate settlement of the problem.

    FOOD SUPPLIES.

      PIG CONTROLLER (RESIGNATION).
      Mr. DEVLIN: May I ask the Leader of the House, in view of the grave announcement made this morning of the resignation of the Pig Controller, whether he can make any statement, whether that resignation has been caused, as alleged, by a change in the pig policy of the War Cabinet, and whether he is now in a position to say what is the pig policy of the War Cabinet?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I really think that the hon. Member should have felt that in an important question of that kind he should have given me notice.
      Mr. DEVLIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I waited here on these benches in order to see whether the usual constitutional usage would be carried out of a Minister rising from the third seat upon the Ministerial Benches and explaining his position to the House?

      Green Park.
      Sir J. D. REESasked the First Commissioner of Works why the Green Park is shut at nine o'clock in summer?
      Sir A. MOND: Green Park is closed at 10 p.m. in the summer. On the first introduction of Summer Time this hour was altered to 11 p.m., but it proved to be highly objectionable from the point of view of public decency, and the original closing hour was adopted again this year.
      Sir J. D. REES: Why is it more necessary to close the Green Park than Hyde Park, for instance?
      Sir A. MOND: I have given the hon. Gentleman the reason.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN.
    Major-General Sir Newton James Moore, K.C.M.G., for the Borough of Saint George, Hanover Square.
    BILL PRESENTED.
    HOUSING BILL,—"to confer further powers on county councils in relation to the provision of houses for persons in their employment or paid by them, and to the housing of the working classes," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; supported by Mr. Prothero and Mr. Walsh; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 98.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: May I ask what business will be taken next week?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: On Monday we shall take the Second Reading of the School Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, the Committee stage of the Midwives Bill, and the Second Reading of the Special Commission (Belfast Prison) Bill.
  On Tuesday, the Second Reading of the Naval and Military War Pensions Bill, Irish Land (Provision for Sailors and Soldiers) Bill, Second Reading.
  On Wednesday we propose to give the time to the discussion of the Motion to make women eligible as Members of Parliament, and also for the Motion to open the Gallery equally to men and women; and further stages of other Bills will also be taken; and on Thursday, Supplementary Estimates.
  Mr. KING: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when he will give the Home Secretary his opportunity of making a statement on the police strike, and whether, when that is done, it will be done in such a form that there may be criticism and debate?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I will discuss it with my right hon. Friend, but I can hardly conceive any form that will not allow criticism.
  Mr. DILLON: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the fact that there are many other questions pressing for consideration more important than the question of opening the Gallery?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: That is certainly true, but I made a promise at an earlier part of the Session that an opportunity would be given, and I am convinced that it will not occupy many minutes of the time of the House.
  Sir J. BUTCHER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when this House will have an opportunity of discussing the position of prisoners of war in the same way as has been done already in another place?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I answered a question upon that subject earlier this afternoon.
  Sir J. BUTCHER: Cannot an opportunity for discussion be given at an early date? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answered!"].
  Mr. PRINGLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether the Committee engaged in drafting the Home Rule Bill for Ireland has reported to the War Cabinet, and whether the House will have an opportunity of considering it?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: If the hon. Member asks me the same question every day I must give the same answer. I have no statement to make on the subject.
  Mr. PRINGLE: There is a change in the situation.
  Mr. DENMAN: May I ask what Orders will be taken to-day?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Only one—the Education (Scotland) Bill.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro): I beg to move to leave out the words "now read the third time," and to add the words "recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House, in respect of a Government Amendment to Schedule 5."
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  Mr. PRINGLE: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "of," to insert the words "an Amendment to Clause 13 and."
  Seeing that the Bill is to be recommitted, I think it is advisable that it should be recommitted in respect of another question even more important than that upon which the Government is now seeking its recommittal. I refer to Clause 13, Sub-section (2). I do not think it necessary to go into the details of the subject, but I would remind the House that this was the most important controverted question on the Committee stage. At that time, in spite of the

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  influence of the Government, the Amendment proposed was only defeated by seventeen votes to fifteen, and, in view of the fact that we have a whole day for the Bill, I think the Government would do well to give the House an opportunity of reconsidering the question, more especially as all the local authorities in Scotland, the county councils, the town councils, and the School Boards Association, have indicated that they support this Amendment.
  Mr. SHAW: I beg to second the Amendment, and I should like to appeal to the Secretary for Scotland to move that the Bill should be recommitted, not only in the sense of my hon. Friend, who has behind him the backing of every local authority in Scotland, but also in respect of the Fourth Schedule. An important Amendment to the Schedule which was moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Murray Macdonald), yesterday, and which has behind it a very large body of support, was ruled out of order by Mr. Speaker on technical grounds. I trust that the Secretary for Scotland will see that these matters, which were discussed in Committee and decided by the narrowest margin are given a fair show at this stage.
  Mr. MUNRO: I quite recognise that the question which my hon. Friend desires to raise is an important one, and I do not think that it would be proper for me, even if I had the right, to attempt to exclude it from discussion, seeing that my hon. Friend has expressed his desire to raise it. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, I do not offer any opposition to his Amendment. But, so far as the other question to which reference has been made is concerned, it is in quite a different position. No formal Amendment has been moved, and my right hon. Friend, who is chiefly interested in it, and in whose name the Amendment stood, has not seen fit to make this Motion to the House. I therefore respectfully ask my hon. Friend not to persist in the proposal; but so far as the important question of rating is concerned, I shall not place any obstacle in the way of it being raised.
  Amendment to proposed Amendment agreed to.
  Proposed words, as amended, there added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Bill (re-committed) considered in Committee.
  [Sir DONALD MACLEAN in the Chair.]

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.

    CLAUSE 13.—(Expenses of Education Authorities.)
    (2) Every education authority shall annually ascertain the amount of such deficiency, and, unless and until Parliament otherwise determine in any statute amending the law of rating in Scotland, shall allocate and apportion the same among the parishes comprised in the education area, according to their respective valuations in the valuation roll, and shall, not later than the twelfth day of June in each year, certify to the parish council of each such parish the amount so allocated and apportioned thereupon, and the parish council may and shall impose, levy, and collect the same within such parish, under the name of "education rate," in the manner prescribed by Section thirty-four of the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1845, with respect to the poor rate, and along with, but as a separate assessment from that rate, and shall from time to time as they collect it, pay over the amount collected to the education authority, without any deductions on account of the cost of levying and collecting the same; and the laws applicable for the time being to the imposition, collection and recovery of the poor rate shall be applicable to the education rate.
    Provided that in parishes where no poor rate is levied, or where the poor rate is imposed otherwise than in the manner prescribed by Section thirty-four of the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1845, the education rate shall nevertheless be imposed, levied, and collected by the parish council in the manner prescribed by that Section.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2), and to insert instead thereof the words,
    "(2) Each education authority shall annually ascertain the amount of such deficiency and, in the case of the scheduled burghs shall certify to the town council of each such burgh the amount thereof, and, in the case of other areas, shall apportion and allocate the same among the burghs and county or counties constituting an education area, according to their respective valuations in the valuation roll, and shall not later than the twelfth day of June in each year certify to the town council of each burgh and the county council of each county the amount of such deficiency, and the town council and county council shall impose, levy, and collect the same within such burgh or county, respectively, under the name of education rate, and shall from time to time as they collect it pay over the amount collected to the local education authority without any deduction on account of the cost of levying and collecting the same:

    (a) In a county, excluding a burgh, the education rate shall be imposed, levied, and collected by the county council in like manner and under the like powers as, but as a separate assessment from, and without the limit applicable to the public health general assessment:

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    (b) In every burgh the education rate shall be imposed, levied, and collected in like manner and under the like powers as, but as a separate assessment from and without the limit or abatements applicable to the public health general assessment."

    4.0 P.M.
    I think it will be for the advantage of the House if I explain very simply what the proposal in the Bill is, and what the effect of my Amendment, if adopted, will be. The proposal in the Bill relates to the method of rating for the purpose of meeting what is called the deficiency of the Education Fund. As it stands it is proposed that each education authority should ascertain the amount of the deficiency annually, and should apportion that deficiency between the various parishes in their area in proportion to the gross valuation, and when this apportionment has been made it will be the duty of the parish to levy and impose the rate upon the basis of the assessable rental in the parish. In other words, the allocation is made on the basis of gross valuation, with the effect that the rates themselves are levied on the assessable rental in the same way as the poor rate. The proposal in the Amendment is to substitute for this machinery the basis of the county rate for the purposes of the levy of the rate. The local education authority would report the amount of the deficiency to the county authority, and to the burghs within their areas, and it would then be the duty of the county authority to levy the rate on the basis of the general county rate as at the present time levied. It would also be the duty of the burghs in the areas to levy the rate on the basis on which the public health rate is levied. That is I think in a general way the effect which my Amendment would have.
    There are a large number of practical as well as theoretical reasons why I believe the Government should adopt this course. I hold, in the first place, that the scheme of the Amendment is preferable to that in the Bill, because it is fair and equal in its incidence—it is uniform, and at the same time it is in accordance with the principle of the Bill itself. The Government has accepted the county as the administrative unit, and it is surely, therefore, appropriate that the county should also be the unit for rating purposes. One of the strongest arguments for taking the county as the unit for administrative purposes was the existing inequality in respect
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    of rates among the parishes in the different parts of the same centres. If the Government adhere to the scheme in the Bill, while it is true you will, to a large extent, diminish the inequalities and disparities which at present exist, you will still retain very considerable inequalities, which I do not think my right hon. Friend, the Secretary for Scotland, is in a position to justify. These inequalities are inequalities both in relation to different parishes, and as regards different subjects and different classes of ratepayers.
    I have not been able, of course, to ascertain the effect of the two proposals on the whole of Scotland, but the Lanarkshire County Council has made a very complete investigation in relation to all the parishes in their area and they show that while, if the system in the Amendment were adopted there would be a uniform rate for the whole county of 10⅝d. on occupiers and owners alike, on the other hand, under the system whereby each parish levies the rate, you will have very extensive variation in the amount of the rate in different parishes throughout the county. I think the variation amounts to something like 6d. or 7d. in the £. Not only will you have these variations in respect of the parish, but it also affects the question of the rate as regards the different classes of ratepayers. It will be found on a general survey that if the scheme of my Amendment is adopted ratepayers who are occupiers of houses and ratepayers who are occupiers of shops, and in the great majority of cases those who pay rates in respect of manufactories, mines, and agricultural land, will all be benefited by the change, and that the only class of property which will be prejudically affected will be the railways and tramways. The Lanark County Council has gone very fully into the various cases in which a change in the position would be brought about by the adoption of the Amendment, and the result of their inquiry dealing with the valuation as a whole is that in 12,723 cases, which all come under the heads I have mentioned, the difference is in favour of the county system of levying the rates, while on the other hand the difference in favour of the parish system only applies in 3,895 cases, and these are exclusively railways, tramways, and similar undertakings. It seems to me in these circumstances there is a

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    strong case not only on logical, but also on practical grounds for adopting the system which I suggest.
    With regard to this proposal to take the county as the rating unit and thus get rid of the inequalities which I have mentioned in respect of locality and different classes of ratepayers, I may remind the House that on the Committee stage my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate supported the scheme of the Bill on the ground that the alternative proposal would press unfairly upon industry. I think that by the investigations that have been made in probably the most important industrial area—Lanarkshire—the result of which I have quoted, it is made quite clear that that general contention of my right hon. Friend is unsound. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman dissents. I can only say that I shall be glad to hear any evidence which he has to support his contention, and I may add that undoubtedly in respect of Lanark the only industrial undertakings which are really prejudiced are the railways and the tramways, and except in the case of a small minority of manufacturing undertakings all the other cases are not prejudically affected. Under these circumstances I think the House will require very cogent reasons before it consents to a system which is devised apparently solely in the interests of one set of undertakings. The undertakings which will benefit are four—the North British Railway Company, the Caledonian Railway Company, the Glasgow Corporation Tramways, and the Lanarkshire Tramways, and these will benefit to a very considerable extent. I think the amount by which they will benefit is something like 5d. or 6d. in the £ in the rate, and that arises very much from the abatements which are allowed to these undertakings in their assessments for poor relief. I can well understand that those interested in these undertakings are very anxious that the Government proposal should be adhered to and that my Amendment should be rejected. I wish to remind the House that in support of this Amendment we have the combined authority of the County Councils Association, the School Boards, the Convention of Royal Burghs, and I may add the School Board also of the City of Glasgow, and this is an array of authorities which I think the Government would do well not to neglect or ignore.
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    In these times of stress it is extremely difficult to ascertain what the public view is on any particular question, owing to the supersession of the ordinary means of expressing that opinion. When you have an opinion so united on the part of all these representative institutions, I think it is the duty of the Government to give heed to that opinion. I would remind the Lord Advocate, further, of a very interesting precedent which I think should affect his mind on this matter. In 1889, when certain public health functions were taken over by the county councils, the method of rating adopted by the Local Government Act of that year was precisely that which the Government has adopted in this Bill. But later on, when the law had been amended, in 1897, the Government of that day decided that the system ought to be abandoned, and that it should no longer be left to the parish to impose rates on the basis of the poor rate, but that the rates should be imposed on the county basis in accordance with the system under the Roads and Bridges Act, 1878. So that in support of this Amendment you have the practical grounds which I have set forth—grounds of justice and equality between the individual ratepayers and between the different localities in the same county area. You have the logical ground of securing uniformity under the Bill and agreement with the general principle of it. You have the precedent which I have quoted, which would seem to indicate that where you have the county as the administrative unit it is most convenient that it should be the unit for rating purposes. I think that my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland should at the same time be faithful to himself, because in last year's Bill he adopted the principle of the Amendment which I am now proposing, and if in the circumstances of last year's Bill the principle was a sound principle, and an equitable principle, it should surely be equally sound and equitable for the purposes of the present Bill. I hope, therefore, in view of all these considerations that the right hon. Gentleman will accept my Amendment.
    Sir GEORGE YOUNGER: I did not know until I came to the House that the Bill was to be recommitted in respect of this Clause. I assume that the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend, which was on the Paper last night, is in the same terms as it then appeared. For myself, I think that the proposal of the Amendment was seen to be a very serious

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    change to introduce on the Report stage of the Bill, and no doubt it is satisfactory to my hon. and learned Friend, owing to another Clause having been recommitted, to reintroduce this matter, in the very interesting and admirable speech to which we have just listened, and which we had in Committee upstairs. The only question is whether such a large change as that proposed ought to be made in an Education Bill of this kind. I do not think it ought to be put into the Bill. The argument was used by the hon. Member that the Secretary for Scotland had departed from his original intention, but that is not an argument which really applies in this case, the right hon. Gentleman having reverted to the parish system of rating which has been practised throughout Scotland in the whole matter of education. If that were to be altered now, it would make a very serious difference to very many people. As to the public health rate, which in counties is levied on the gross valuation, that is a small matter to the parish. It raises no acute question of difference in payments by the individuals.
    But it is wholly different with regard to education, the rate for which is likely to be very heavy in the future; it is heavy enough in all conscience now, but it will be very much heavier. I would point out that in many counties now the rates have to be collected by the parish council, to whom they are remitted for the purpose of collection, as, no doubt, my hon. and learned Friend knows perfectly well. I need not go into the argument at great length a great deal is to be said for the assimilation in the system of rating. There has been, for a long time, promise of a measure to deal with the whole question of local rating in Scotland, and it is surely time enough when that measure is brought in to deal with this very important question. It goes without saying that, in certain cases, if the hon. Member's proposal were accepted, and if the rating in Scotland were reconsidered, probably special arrangements would have to be made with regard to particular properties where there are running rights. But the hon. Member's Amendment entirely alters the burghial system of rating, and it is incredible that such a change should be made in a Bill of this kind. He has asked the House to adopt a particular kind of rating system, and he sweeps away the burghal system of rating, which has been
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    considered perfectly fair and quite equitable. In a Bill of this kind it is neither desirable nor fair to introduce so great a change as that proposed by the Amendment, and it should not be considered, I submit, until the whole system of rating comes to be dealt with.
    Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR: The hon. Baronet who has just sat down complained of a change of this character being made in an Education Bill, but may I remind him and the House that the proposal to which he now takes exception was exactly the proposal made by my right hon. Friend in the first Education Bill? My hon. Friend says that no doubt the county council would have been the rating authority, but, although that has been given up, the county area remains as the rating area, and that at once raises the question as to the area in which the rating takes place. I submit with great confidence, in a matter of this kind, when you are dealing with a county area itself, that it is perfectly obvious and only fair that the system should be a system of county rating. My hon. and learned Friend who moved this Amendment has gone into considerable details, but let me give one or two illustrations to make clear the tremendous variations that are going to arise in the Bill as it now stands. Take, for example, the county of Lanarkshire, which contains thirty-seven parishes and in each parish you would have a different rate, both for the owner and occupier under the proposal of the Bill. Can the right hon. Gentleman justify that for a moment? Surely uniformity in matters of rating is of the very highest importance, when you come to deal with rating of this kind. But my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment would put in place of these tremendous variations uniformity throughout the whole of the county of Lanarkshire, and the rate would amount to from 10d. to 10.69d., and that uniformity would be obtained throughout all the counties that are very much in the same position.
    Under the Bill, you give an unfair advantage to certain kinds of undertakings, and there is no doubt that it is the railway companies who stand to gain—there may be one or two other interests—by the proposal which is in the Bill. My right hon. Friend during the Debates in Committee, laid very great stress on the opinion of the counties; he particularly instanced Lanarkshire, and when I

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    introduced an Amendment to alter the area of Lanarkshire, he adduced that county as one of the strongest points against me. The County Councils' Association, the Royal Burghs, and a great many other important associations, are now identified with my hon. and learned Friend's proposal. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. Is it not the case that the County Councils' Association, and the Convention of Royal Burghs and the School Boards' Association and others have adopted resolutions. That being so there is a very large body of opinion on the point. I submit that the case really depends upon a common-sense view of what system of rating you are to apply to the county areas which are now established as a result of the Bill. Surely yon are not going to suggest that while retaining the county as the area that the parish is to be the particular rating area. I submit that the reason given in support of this Amendment are of the very strongest character, and the fact that it was only defeated by two in the Committee upstairs, will I hope be kept in view in dealing with this matter. I hope we shall have the support of English members who may not have sat on the Grand Committee in accepting the view which is now placed before the Committees, and that they will treat the matter from a broad and common-sense point of view, and will go into the Lobby against us.
    Mr. DUNDAS WHITE: I desire very briefly to support the Amendment proposed by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle). This Amendment, as the Committee knows, was excluded on an important technical point yesterday, and as a supporter, I desire to express my appreciation of the way in which the Secretary for Scotland has agreed to the matter being opened for discussion now. The point is whether the system of rating by the new educational authorities should be as proposed in the Bill on the net valuation by parishes or whether it should be on what is known as the gross valuation. In other words, whether it should follow the analogy of most of the county rates and also of the public health rates in burghs, and be on what is called the gross valuation. The method proposed by the Bill is, of course, the method by which education rates have been raised in the past when education was upon the Poor Law parochial basis. That
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    was the basis then, but it seems to me to be no longer the natural basis now, when the educational system is put upon the county basis. In fact, the county basis may be looked upon as the more modern, because the parochial basis was the basis for the old Poor Law, and the other is the basis adopted under the Act, which created the county councils, and under more modern Statutes. As regards the merits of the matter which have been dealt with by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Millar), I need not say anything, but it is important to bear in mind that not only is the system of rating on gross valuation more consistent with the county system and adopted in the recent Acts, but the Secretary for Scotland had actually adopted it in the previous edition of this Bill. One knows, of course, that the previous edition of the Bill made the county council the authority, but it is not a question of the particular authority; it is a question of area, and when the county is held to be the area it seems to me very appropriate that what may roughly be called the county system of rating should be adopted.
    On the merits it seems to me a fairly clear case, and I cannot understand why the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) should have said that it was a monstrous proposal, in view of the fact that it is in keeping with the county arrangements generally, and that the Secretary for Scotland had it in the previous edition of the Bill. It must also be remembered that the adoption of the Poor Law system by parishes is not only appropriate when education is put upon the county basis, but it has a further disadvantage. I speak with some diffidence because I know that the details of these rating questions are apt to be a little technical; but I understand that the allowances which are made in parishes under Poor Law rating are, to a very considerable extent, at the discretion of the parochial authorities. They are not absolutely fixed by Statutes, and the parochial authority has a very considerable discretion as to what allowance should be made in or by the net valuation. Therefore it is not a matter of so much importance if the parish itself is the unit, but where there are a number of parishes in the county unit it becomes of very great importance, because the amount that may be apportioned to the different parishes depends on the valuation, which in its turn may depend to some extent on the

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    amount of allowances which it is decided to make in the area. That seems to me to be an additional reason for setting aside the parish Poor Law rating and adopting the wider system. This Amendment is by no means a paper scheme. Besides being in the previous edition of the Bill it was put forward in Committee upstairs, and, as has been pointed out, it was lost only by two votes. It has, I understand, the general assent of the Association of County Councils in Scotland and it has also the assent of the Convention of Royal Burghs, and in these circumstances I do hope that my right hon. Friend will see his way to give it further consideration and to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I rise to support the Amendment as I supported it in Committee. I think there are very strong reasons in favour of dealing with rating on the county basis if you are going to make that your educational area. I would point out, in regard to the appeal of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Millar) to English Members, that we are asking my right hon. Friend to do exactly what was done when the English Education Act was passed which abolished the school boards and created the county area. In that case the cost of education is put upon the same basis as the other county rates. Why a different course should be adopted in the case of Scotland I do not think any English Member will be able to explain. They will not be able to explain what my right hon. Friend, with all his ingenuity, was not able to explain in Committee. I hope the fact that my right hon. Friend with great fairness has allowed this subject to be reconsidered by recommitting the Bill upon this Clause as well as the Clause upon which he had an Amendment, means that he has an open mind and that he is prepared to consider this question upon its merits. I do not think that those who advocate this Amendment should despair of convincing him upon a subject in regard to which he is very familiar.
    If you are going to have the advantages in administration which will accrue from having a larger area it is very foolish to lose an opportunity of getting the advantage of equalisation of rates. It is perfectly plain that it is an advantage to have equalisation of rates in regard to education. I do not think anybody will dispute that. I take that as axiomatic. In the provisions of the Bill you are not obtaining that amount of equalisation
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    which you could very easily obtain. One point has been raised in the Debate which I should like to put clearly before the Committee. It has been represented by one hon. Member that it is an unreasonable thing to press this Amendment, because you are altering the system of rating for education in an Education Bill. Whether that is so or not, that argument is not based upon a fact. The Bill itself, whether you accept the rating Clause as it appears in the Bill or you go back to the previous Bill, equally makes a change in the incidence of the education rate. The very fact that you alter the area and introduce the provision which my right hon. Friend has introduced alters the basis of rating. People will not be paying the same education rates in Scotland as they were paying before the introduction of this Bill. I do not think anyone will question that simple point. Therefore it is not a case of altering the rating by the Amendment and leaving it alone in the Bill. You alter it anyway, whether you accept my right hon. Friend's system or whether you accept the system of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle).
    If you adopt the system of the Bill you get all sorts of absurdities and anomalies. You will have, for example, in Glasgow, in the great county area, parishes side by side paying a great variety of education rates, whereas if you adopt the system of the county basis all the parishes in the county will pay the same rate. It is not merely that you get differences between parishes, but you get differences, and very curious differences, between the incidence of owner and occupier. I have here a list which has been drawn up, I understand, by the Burghs and County Councils Association. In the case of Crawfordjohn the owner's rate will be close upon 10¾d. and the occupier's rate will be 1s. 8½d. In the case of Rutherglen the owner's and occupier's rate will be almost the same—both just under 1s. 1d. If you adopt the county rate basis, you will get none of these curious anomalies, and you will have made a great step forward towards what we must all desire—namely, equalisation of rating. The disparity of rates in Scotland is positively scandalous, and I agree with my hon. and learned Friend opposite that it is very desirable that we should have a reform of rating altogether. I think it would be a good thing if this discussion leads my right hon. Friends to put their hands to that task. There is no reason why, having to alter the education rate,

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    you should alter it on a bad system when you can alter it on a much better system. I do not want to go into the various technical questions, which were very clearly put before the House by my hon. and learned Friend opposite. The broad point is this, that you are making a change in the education rate. The Amendment asks you to make the change upon a simpler, a better, and a fairer basis than the change which is made in the Bill as it stands.
    The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Clyde): I am far from regretting that the course taken by my right hon. Friend in regard to the Amendment and the Motion which he made at the beginning of to-day's sitting has resulted in giving further opportunity for discussion of this question, which is very nearly but not quite the same question as was raised in Committee upstairs. The question is an important one. It is concerned with a point connected with the infinitely complicated question of local rating, about which it is very easy indeed to create or fall into misconceptions. I notice that one hon. Member after another who has spoken on this Amendment to-day—and, I think, not even excluding the Mover of the Amendment himself—has dealt with the proposition as if the Committee was put to the choice between maintaining for the education rate the system at present in force—namely, the parish rate—and the system of the county rate. That is not so. It is very necessary and very important to look at that in the first instance. The proposal which was made upstairs, I think, by my hon. and learned Friend was to make an election between these two alternatives. And he contended that the better way would be to adopt the county system and reject the parish system; in other words, to make a completely new departure and to get rid of the parish system which hitherto has governed the raising of the education rate entirely and substitute for it a county rating system, like the Public Health Assessment, for example. That is not what is proposed in the Amendment before the Committee to-day. The proposal before the Committee to-day is to take neither of these systems, but to invent a new one. The proposal is to discard the parish system and to substitute for it the county rate, in the county areas, where applicable to the public
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    health assessment, but not to apply the public health assessment in burghs but to make a new rate for the burgh.
    This is very important. The public health assessment is assessed under the Burgh Police Act of 1882. Uuder that Act, wherever you have a burgh not merely with railways and tramways, which undoubtedly fill the minds of my hon. Friends above, but bridges and ferries and other undertakings, including salmon fisheries, for there are many, or land within burgh areas which is either arable, meadow, or woodland, nurseries, market gardens—in short, any ground used for agricultural purposes—all these are liable to public health assessment, not on the full valuation, but only on one-fourth of it. It is one thing to ask the Committee to choose between the public health assessment that exists and the present system. But it is quite a different tiling to say, "Adopt neither, but let us tinker up a special system." Of course it is quite true that if the field were open for us to do it, far and away the best thing to do would be to get a perfectly uniform system of rating. That is the strong point on which my right hon. Friend opposite stands, and it is perfectly solid ground. But the public health assessment would not give it, because of this very large qualification in the case of burghs. Therefore I suppose that he is driven to what I call, with all respect, tinkering up a new system for the burghs.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: It will apply the old county system to all the counties in Scotland. The places to which my right hon. Friend's remarks apply are the excepted burghs, the scheduled burghs as they are called. Of course they are very large areas. They include Glasgow, and so on. But that does not affect the question of the rates for all the rural parts of Scotland and all the small towns of Scotland.
    Mr. CLYDE: I quite agree, so far as any county area is concerned—
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: With the argument.
    Mr. CLYDE: As to the matter of uniform rate—yes.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I was merely trying to see if we could not come to an agreement.
    Mr. CLYDE: So far as the county areas are concerned the point is perfectly good. You obtain an absolutely uniform rate. But my point is this. If you ask for an alternative between two possible alternative systems, that is one thing, especially if there are certain advantages to be gained by it. It is quite a different thing if what you are asked to do to get the advantage is not to make a choice but to go on tinkering up one of the two alternatives. Why I think that is objectionable I will explain in a moment. That is the proposal before the Committee at the moment. If we had the field open to us, obviously the right thing to do would be to get these rates, as well as all rates, upon a perfectly equal and uniform basis. That cannot be done unless and until we tackle the Augean stables of the existing system of rating, with all its complications, its inequalities, and its imperfections. If what you do is to add one more to the already too numerous systems of rating in Scotland you will merely add to the confusion which at present exists. We are going to leave the raising of the rate under the parish system exactly as it has been ever since there has been a school board. So far as raising the burden of rate upon the parish is concerned, we leave the matter as between the owner and occupier between house property and industries exactly as it is.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The important thing to the individual is how much rates he pays. He does not care about a change in form, but he cares a great deal if he has to pay twice as much as he paid before. The simple broad fact is that the rates which the individual in Scotland will pay are being altered. Under the new system he will not pay the same rate as he paid under the whole school board system, or anything like it.
    Mr. CLYDE: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman means to introduce clarity into the discussion, but I do not think that he has succeeded. Of course, it is perfectly true that nobody can guarantee that the amount of deficiency which a particular parish will have to raise under the new system, and therefore the rate exigible from the individual in that area will be the same under the new Act as it was under the old. Nobody can tell. I think, if one may express one's opinion, that in all probability the burdens of education will increase very materially, but the proportions in which
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    these will be paid—and that is the important thing; not the amount, but the proportion—within the parish by the individual owner of occupier, of land or of household property, or the industrial owner or occupier, will remain unchanged under the Bill, whereas under the Amendment you are going to revolutionise them. There is no doubt about it. The education rate as it stands is divided up between owners as a class and occupiers as a class. The proposal in the Amendment changes that, and makes, on the contrary, a division between the two classes in the case of each property. What is the use of talking about maintaining the existing burden when you are going to make a change of this kind? Again, every person who owns a shop or a house is allowed in some parishes, almost in all, a certain deduction—about 20 per cent.—to cover the cost of repairs, etc. You propose in the Amendment to take that from them.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Yes, but it varies in different parishes.
    Mr. CLYDE: It is not uniform all over the country. But it is not uniform at present, and the proportions according to which the burden is borne at present are subject to that qualification. If you had your way under this Amendment you would disturb this. Everybody would like to have these local government rates of all kinds imposed upon some perfectly equal system all over the country. But the question is, whether you can take any effective step in that direction by remedying the existing system piecemeal, and, above all, by adding another to the hundred and one systems of local rating which are in operation at the present moment. I do not think so. The controversy which then springs into one's vision is unfortunately an old controversy now. It is the question whether you shall raise your equal rating on the basis of the gross rent or the net rent. That is the crux that underlies the whole affair.
    It is true that in 1889, as the hon. Member for Tradeston says, a large proportion of the county rates was put on gross rental. At that very time, either the second or third Commission which had been appointed by Parliament to consider the question of whether the basis for a general system should be the gross rent or the net rent, was sitting. There had always been one or two Commissions

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    which had reported that the only fair system was the net rent system. In 1889 the Act was passed before the Commission then sitting had reported, and the gross rent was taken. But that very Commission reported, three years afterwards I think, to the effect that the only fair system was the net rent system, and undoubtedly, if these expressions of opinion, after elaborate inquiry and consideration, are worth anything, when we do achieve a uniform system of rating in Scotland it will have to be on the basis of the net rent and not of the gross. And the very fact that in the Local Government Act of 1889 you had to abandon the gross rent in the borough and adopt the valuation of industrial property, and a great deal more at only 25 per cent. is the best evidence you can get that, whatever system you possess; this system of the gross rent is not quite a general system. I will press it a little bit further. It has been suggested by more than one hon. Member who has spoken, that to use the net rent as the basis for assessment by the parishes, is a thing which is in the interests of certain capital undertakings in the form of railway companies, and so on.
    Mr. PRINGLE: They are all here.
    5.0 P.M.
    Mr. CLYDE: From my point of view all interests have to be considered equally, and the first thing that strikes one is that the biggest interest in the matter is not the railway interest or even the tramway interest. The biggest deductions are for some of the industrial companies, and, if you think of it, it is very obvious. There are certain industrial concerns of which the cost of repairs is enormous. Take the case of Scottish oil companies, for example, which deal with an enormous amount of plant that is exposed constantly to the action of liquids and vapours which are highly detrimental to the permanency of the material through which they have to be passed. The deductions which those people get are very large, but in justice it is exceedingly difficult to say that they are not fairly made. Again, the system of net vent has enabled justice to be done, not only to what you may call perhaps a special case like that, but to all cases. It is a great mistake to imagine that net rent and the deductions consequent upon it are limited to works of that kind. I find, for instance,
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    that in the case of a very large electrical concern in Glasgow the deductions amount actually to a percentage of 45, which, it you compare it with the railway companies, is greater than 2 out of 3. The deduction in the case of the Glasgow Corporation Tramways amounts to 36 per cent. and the Glasgow and the South Western is 42. One need not pursue that. It applies equally to shops and to dwelling-houses. It is graded again when you get to mere land, where the cost of repairs is either nothing at all or very trifling. But the result is that something very like real distributive justice is done by that system, and, although it may be attended with some inequalities when you compare parish with parish, it is the system on which the education rate in Scotland has been raised since 1872. When in all probability we are greatly increasing the weight of the burden and creating a very considerable shock accordingly to the people on whom we are putting it, ought we to completely upset the system which ever since 1872 has determined the share in which that burden is borne by various kinds of people?
    Mr. MILLAR: Did you not propose that in your first Bill?
    Mr. CLYDE: I do not know if the hon. Member was here at the beginning of my remarks when I pointed out that the proposal in the original Bill was to adopt the county rate pure and simple, which is not the proposal in this Amendment. As the Bill originally stood the county council was to be the education authority. You would have added new confusion if you told the county council that it was to rate on some different system from that adopted at present, whether you approve of it or not. The long and the short of it really is this, that if it were open to us to do it the right thing undoubtedly is to tackle our whole rating system and get something like equality. If we are not going to do that, we must select, the best we can get and the most suitable for the raising of our new rate. Is there any doubt about that? Is it not wisest to take the same rate as that which has afforded the principle for raising the education fund in Scotland since 1872?
    Lastly, one of the difficulties about the parish rate system is that you have no security that the deductions between parish and parish are made on the same principle. In point of fact they are not. There are variations between parish and parish, and I have no doubt that is in the

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    mind of some hon. Members as another reason why we should endeavour to get some other system applied. Hon. Members may say it is pis aller if they like—I should not object—but I rather look at it from a different point of view. These differences, such as they are, have prevailed all these years while the education rate has been raised. You do not want once more to bring an undue shock upon the ratepayer. You had better leave these things as they are until the whole system can be put upon a reasonable and a rational basis. In short I think, as the choices between us lie, the wisest and the most practical system is to stick to the method by which the education rate has been raised in the past but to keep clearly before us—and no one does that more than I do myself—the desirability, if and when opportunity shall arise, of sweeping away the whole of the inequalities by a comprehensive measure and getting something like an equal system, and, on the other hand, of refusing resolutely—and this is, indeed, what I am doing—to add to the confusion already existing by attempting to tinker with any existing methods; in other words, to add one more to the far too many methods of local rating which are already in force. For these reasons we were unable to see our way to accept the proposal which was made upstairs, and we are still unable to see our way to accept the proposal which is made here. Speaking for myself, at any rate, I am perfectly aware of the imperfections which attach to this method—or, indeed, to any method, which you can introduce into this Bill from any existing system of rating, but obviously an Education Act is not the place in which to attempt to establish a new system which shall be free from the objections which may be taken to any of them.
    Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: As you, Sir, and everyone else knows by this time, I am a railway director. Not an opportunity has been lost of informing the Committee of that fact. Therefore anything I might say with regard to railways is prejudiced. But I will say a few words about railways to show why they really do not count so very much in this matter. The estimated total capital of the railways of the United Kingdom at the pre-war prices of stock was round about £1,250,000,000. The Board of Trade and the Government have put upon the railways since the War began £48,000,000 in wages. It does not require
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    a great arithmetician to find out that that is very nearly 4 per cent. upon the whole of the railway capital. There are other charges, but that is enough. Is the Committee aware that that £48,000,000 wipes off half the stocks of the railways in Great Britain? Have you thought that out?
    Mr. BOOTH: Stocks have gone up!
    Mr. HENDERSON: Calculate it out. It means that a half of the stock of the railway companies, unless the Government intervene, is wiped clean out, and I will challenge any man to refute that statement. In fact, there is no escape from the Government taking over the railways.
    The CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon. Member to come to the Amendment. So far he has not reached it.
    Mr. HENDERSON: As this is a Government affair so far as railways are concerned, I leave them out. Now I come to the crux of the thing—gross or net value. My hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) is too much engaged with high politics to worry himself about details, but here is a letter I have received this morning from the shipbuilders and engineers on this Amendment, and they say they object to altering the present established practice in Scotland and to transferring part of the present assessment from other subjects to industrial establishments and place an increased burden on the industries of the country at a time when they should be fostered and not handicapped. It is the same with all the other industries. Before you arrive at the net value of a private house you would deduct 5 per cent., or something like that, but when you arrive at the net value of manufacturing premises, where engines, fixed plant, the whole of it, is part of the freehold, they allow anything from 40, 45, or 50 per cent., because of the cost of upkeep. Machines are constantly wearing out, and even the hard-hearted Income Tax assessor is now allowing them 10 or 15 per cent., and the Ministry of Munitions has allowed 30, 40, or even 50 per cent. Is it not the grossest injustice to say, "We will charge yon the gross value, when in the case of a house you only deduct 5 per cent., and where you have been hitherto deducting in the case of manufacturing premises 25 or 30 per cent.? It does not commend itself to the most elementary judgment. It may be said parishes differ from parishes with regard to the allowances to be made to the landlords and

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    so forth, and to other people. They will be sure to make the same allowance in the gross rental, and the only remedy for that is some proper system of rating. I dare say it will come to this, that instead of having local assessors you will have some Governmental assessors who will go round about and do justice between all the parishes. After all, who benefits most by education? It is the inhabitants of the houses, and you are going to let them off with the gross rental, when you only allow them 5 per cent., and you are going to penalise all the factories and manufacturing premises, shipbuilders, and engineers throughout Scotland by disallowing the ordinary deductions which they have made for wear and tear and for upkeep, and put them all on the same level. I appeal to my hon. Friend, who must have some sense of justice in his mind, to consider this. There is no justice in it. It is an elementary attempt to make a very gross breach of all the elements of justice that we have been accustomed to.
    Mr. PRINGLE: The Government proposed it last year.
    Mr. HENDERSON: The Government has done a good many unjust things, I dare say. I am not here to whitewash them. I appeal to hon. Members who know. Is it a fair thing that an engineer's shop should be rated at the gross and a private dwelling-house also rated at the gross, when the upkeep of a private house is really a matter of 5 or 6 per cent., while the upkeep of a machine shop is more like 25 or 30 per cent., particularly now, when, owing to the high prices of things, you could not replace them even at that. That is the appeal I make. I appeal with the greatest confidence. I do not care how the Government may move from point to point; it is the privilege of a man to change his opinions. They have only gone back to what has been the rate since 1872. I appeal to them to stand firm by this. To do anything else would be a great injustice to the industries, and would fasten them with an enormous addition to their expenses at a time when the very reverse ought to be the case. My right hon. Friend there wants industries to be taxed. Surely he forgets that any additional tax you put on an industry is so much grit in the wheel. It must be. Therefore, I appeal with the greatest confidence to the right hon. Gentleman to adhere to the Bill as it now stands.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I feel that I must intervene in the Debate after the statements made by the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Henderson). He has been asking several very pertinent questions in the course of that remarkable speech of his, and one of his statements was that it was the inhabitants of the houses who were to get the chief benefit of education. Surely he has not been watching the trend of events in the last three or four years when he makes that statement. We have been told of the great necessity that exists for keeping our place as a manufacturing nation and that we must have an educated people. Then surely capital should bear its full share of the cost. He makes a further remarkable statement when he says that the more you increase the rates you simply throw sand in the wheels of the industrial concerns of this country. Surely that is a most remarkable statement. If we are to keep our place as a manufacturing community—and I hope we will, and will take every step to do so, for I agree with many statements made in the course of these Debates, that we need to extend our system of education and to have a higher standard generally and technically—then capital must bear its fair share of the cost of education. Will that be sand in the wheel? I think it will be well-spent money as far as they are concerned.
    Mr. HENDERSON: I do not say that they decline. I object to an unfair proportion.
    Mr. ADAMSON: The question of unfair proportion is very much a matter of opinion. I am very strongly of opinion that the working classes of the country have borne an unfair proportion of certain forms of taxation and that certain big industrial concerns have escaped paying their fair proportion. The Amendment that we are considering now asks us to readjust the proportion of taxation in such a way as to cause some of the industrial concerns to bear a fairer proportion than they have done up to the present. Surely that is not an injustice especially if it is done for the purpose as we all agree of keeping our place in the industrial world.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I was greatly impressed by the point the Lord Advocate made as to the departure I make from the scheme as put forward last year. It is true the latter part of my Amendment makes a

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    departure from the existing position, and as that was the only valid argument in his speech I am prepared to meet my right hon. Friend on that point and to have the Public Health assessment in the burghs, and I imagine that will be secured by the omission of the words "or abatements." If that is done, I think the Government may fairly meet us. The Lord Advocate with all his ingenuity never endeavoured to show that it was a wrong thing they proposed to do in the Bill. His only argument was that then we were dealing with a county council and we are now having an ad hoc authority. But if it is just with the county council it is just with an ad hoc authority. I do not think the Government can escape from their position. I am quite willing to show my fidelity to the right hon. Gentleman by being faithful to him after he has ceased to be faithful to himself. Here is an opportunity of restoring his consistency and that must be a dear thing to a member of the present Government. I think my right hon. Friend will be meeting the wishes of the majority of those interested in local government in Scotland if he does this. I quite admit that he will, of course, displease my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Henderson), but we have all of us with great sorrow and great reluctance to do that. He stands in the ancient ways and holds to his old views with great force and great geniality, and we can always disagree with him with the greatest of pleasure, and it is in the sporting spirit we associate with a youthful man like himself. I think in the circumstances the Government need have no hesitation in meeting what is obviously the general wish of the Scottish Members. I may remind my right hon. Friend that upstairs when the Division was taken it was 17 to 15, and that was only because the Government threw its weight into the scales against the Amendment. There were four members of the Government, I think, voting in the majority of seventeen, and one was a Private Secretary. I think one or two hon. Members voted with the Government simply because the Government had made it a test question. I think, in view of the case the right hon. Gentleman has put, he might very well assent to the fair and reasonable proposal I have made. It would simply crown the whole course of conciliation the Secretary for Scotland has pursued in this matter, and we should all part happily with this Bill and say with one accord that he was the most courteous and skilful of pilots.
    Mr. CLYDE: The hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle) has adopted a course which undoubtedly has been suggested by that ingenuity he always shows in the Debates of this House, but I am not sure it has not over-reached itself on this occasion. The moment he makes this change and cuts out the exclusion of the special burgh expenses granted under the statutory Government assessment, that moment he deprives his proposal of its one merit he said it possessed, of establishing an absolutely equal rate. He cannot expect me to accept that. He might appeal if he had a successful method of getting an equal rate, but if he proceeds to say, "No, but in order to meet your views I will alter my Amendment so as to make it impossible to have an equal rate under it," then he appeals to me in vain. The net is spread in vain before the bird. I cannot possibly walk into that. What we must do, I am afraid, is to adhere to the same method that has prevailed since '72 in regard to the collection of this rate.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I was disappointed to hear the reply of my right hon. Friend, and I really have great difficulty in understanding his attitude. This is a proposal deliberately and after due consideration put forward by the Government itself, and how anybody can maintain that the proposal in the Bill tends to equalisation in anything like the same degree as the proposal of my hon. Friend, I cannot for the life of me understand. Just look at the position we should be in. I am a Glasgow Member. What shall we have in Glasgow? One educational area, one education authority, and something like fourteen different rates in one city. I am not quite sure how many parishes or parts of parishes there are in Glasgow, but as far as I can make out, after consulting those who know, there are something like seven. As there is a separate rate under this system for occupier and owner, it means you have fourteen different rates for one service in one city. Could there be anything more ridiculous? When you take the county of Lanarkshire you have again one educational area and one authority, and you have thirty-seven different rating areas and seventy-four possible different rates. I do appeal to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland to have some regard for his own Bill. He knows I have supported him sometimes when I did not agree with him. I have supported him throughout because I

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    believe his Bill contains valuable provisions. I am extremely sorry to see it going to the world and put into operation with a patent blur on it like this, with perfectly absurd rating provisions of a kind that everybody will understand. Here are two people on different sides of the street paying different rates for education and sending their children to the same school. They happen now to be under different educational authorities but they are to be under the same, and how you are going to explain that I am at a loss to understand. I hope my right hon. Friend will feel it his duty to meet the wishes of the great majority of Scottish Members, and the wishes, let me remind the hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Henderson) of the County Councils' Association and the Association of Royal Burghs and all the public authorities who are interested in this matter in Scotland.
    The LORD ADVOCATE: I must point out that practically the whole agitation reduces itself to one county. Apart from that, the whole of the parish councils are opposed, and as far as I am aware—I am not perfectly sure, of my ground—the Association of Royal Burghs has never expressed an opinion except through one area.
    Mr. WOOD: I understood that the Convention of Royal Burghs did express an opinion, and that it is certainly the view of the great bulk of the bodies But the real point of the thing is not who supports it, but is this a reasonable proposal. I cannot see how the House of Commons can pass a proposal which would have such a ridiculous result as to create one education area and at the same time levy fourteen different rates from the people in that education area.
    Colonel GREIG: I should not have intervened at all had it not been for an observation that the majority of those interested in local government in Scotland are in favour of this Amendment. The Lord Advocate has made a brief statement with regard to one body. May I point out that all the parish councils of Scotland, who have levied this rate up to the present time, and in whose hands it will be under the Clause as now in the Bill, acting through their association, are unanimously of opinion that the Clause should be retained in the Bill. They express that opinion mainly on the ground
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    of the increase in the cost of the levying of the rate which would be effected otherwise, and amongst other reasons they say that the question is one to be dealt with after the War as a whole and not merely in an Education Bill.
    Mr. WATT: I regret very much that the Government have not seen their way to accept the Amendment. I appeal to the Lord Advocate and Secretary for Scotland to remove their Whips in the Division, and that Members vote freely. In the Division upstairs the figures were 17 to 15, and we may take it that at least two of those who voted were influenced against their better judgment to vote with the Government. I think it is not going too far to say that. That being so, let us have a free vote on this occasion. It is quite noticeable that the Whips are going about like perturbed spirits, marching back and fro like the ghost of Hamlet's father. We may infer from that that their men are not here. If the Secretary for Scotland removes the Whips the life of the Government will be saved if the Amendment is carried in that way.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I am extremely sorry that the Government have not seen their way to accept the compromise I suggested. The effect of the Government proposal as compared with mine is to lay the burden upon the occupiers of small house property and shops and also of a number of manufacturing businesses. All that is being done to relieve the railways, which are so ably and persistently represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire West (Mr. Henderson), of from 5d. to 10d. in the £1 of their rateable value, and railways which have now a guaranteed dividend. We have had a great many distressful eases brought forward by the Lord Advocate. There was mention of oil companies who do not know what to do to escape excess profits, and we have the munition people, who have been rolling in wealth. They must be relieved; they are hard cases which melt the hearts of the Government. They do not consider how the rates will fall on the occupiers of small houses and of shops, both in the towns and villages. It is because of these injustices I intend to carry my Amendment to a Division.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 75.

    Division No. 83.]

    AYES.

    [5.37 p.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Col John

    Norman, Rt. Hon. Major Sir H.

    Anderson, G. K.

    Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Alfred

    Norton-Griffiths, Sir J.

    Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William

    Greig, Colonel J. W.

    Orde-Powiett, Hon. W. G. A.

    Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

    Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

    Palmer, Goufrey Mark

    Baird, John Lawrence

    Hanson, Charles Augustin

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

    Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

    Harris, Parcy A. (Leicester, S.)

    Perkins, Walter F.

    Barnett, Captain R. W.

    Haslam, Lewis

    Peto, Basil Edward

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

    Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester)

    Barrie, H. T.

    Hayward, Evan

    Pratt, J. W.

    Beale, Sir William Phipson

    Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

    Randles, Sir John S.

    Beauchamp, Sir Edward

    Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.

    Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arton)

    Bellairs, Commander C. W.

    Hoare, Sir Samuel John Gurney

    Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

    Bigland, Alfred

    Hope, Harry (Bute)

    Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Bird, Alfred

    Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. (Midlothian)

    Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen)

    Boyton, Sir James

    Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H.

    Samuels, Arthur W.

    Brace, Rt. Hon. William

    Ingleby, Holcombe

    Sharman-Crawford, Col. R. G.

    Bridgeman, William Clive

    Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

    Shortt, Edward

    Brunner, John F. L.

    Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

    Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

    Burn, Colonel C. R.

    Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

    Spear, Sir John W.

    Butcher, Sir John George

    Kellaway, Frederick George

    Stanton, Charles Butt

    Carew, C. R. S.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry

    Carnegie, Lieut.-Col. Douglas G.

    Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

    Stewart, Gershom

    Cator, John

    Levy, Sir Maurice

    Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Lloyd, George Buller (Shrewsbury)

    Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

    Cheyne, Sir W. W.

    Lonsdale, James R.

    Walker, Colonel William Hall

    Clyde, J. Avon

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    MacCaw, Wiliam J. MacGeagh

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

    Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff)

    Macleod, John Mackintosh

    Wardle, George J.

    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

    Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.)

    Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, E.)

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

    Weigall, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A.

    Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James Ian

    White, Col. G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Maden, Sir John Henry

    Whiteley, Sir H. J.

    Currie, George W.

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

    Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

    Denniss, E. R. B.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Wilson-Fox, Henry

    Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

    Moore, Sir J. N.

    Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

    Morgan, George Hay

    Yate, Col. C. E.

    Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

    Morton, Sir Alpheus Cleophas

    Younger, Sir George

    Fleming, Sir John

    Mount, William Arthur

    Foster, Philip Staveley

    Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Capt.

    Ganzoni, Francis John C.

    Newman, Sir Robert (Exeter)

    Guest and Col. Sanders

    Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Harbison, T. J. S.

    Outhwaite, R. L.

    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

    Partington, Hon. Oswald

    Anderson, W. C.

    Hazleton, Richard

    Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding)

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Hearn, Michael Louis

    Raffan, Peter Wilson

    Boland, John Plus

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Booth, Frederick Handel

    Hogge, John Myles

    Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Holmes, Daniel Turner

    Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M.

    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Rowlands, James

    Brady, Patrick Joseph

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

    Rowntree, Arnold

    Bryce, J. Annan

    Keating, Matthew

    Runciman, Sir Walter (Hartlepool)

    Byrne, Alfred

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Sheehy, David

    Chancellor, Henry George

    King, Joseph

    Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

    Clough, William

    Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

    Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)

    Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

    Lundon, Thomas

    Watt, Henry A.

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk, B'ghs)

    While, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

    Crumley, Patrick

    Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

    Whitehouse, John Howard

    Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.

    McGhee, Richard

    Whitty, Patrick Joseph

    Dillon, John

    Marshall, Sir Arthur Harold

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Doris, William

    Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

    Williams, John (Glamorgan)

    Duffy, William

    Millar, James Duncan

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Esmonde, Capt. John (Tipperary, N.)

    Mooney, John J.

    Wing, Thomas Edward

    Firench, Peter

    Muldoon, John

    Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

    Field, William

    Nolan, Joseph

    Yoxall, Sir James Henry

    Finney, Samuel

    Nugent, J. D. (College Green)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Nuttall, Harry

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

    Gilmour, Lieut.-Col. John

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Pringle and Mr. Shaw.

    Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  FIFTH SCHEDULE.

    ADAPTATION OF ACTS.
    5. In the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908—
    (b) The expenses which may be sanctioned by minutes of the Department under paragraph (7) of Section three shall include the travelling and personal expenses of the members of the education authority of a county necessarily incurred in attending meetings of the authority or any committee thereof, and also contributions by any education authority to any association of such authorities concerned in the consideration of educational questions.
    Mr. MUNRO: I beg to move, in paragraph (b), to omit the words,
    "The travelling and personal expenses of the members of the education authority of a county necessarily incurred in attending meetings of the authority or any committee thereof, and also."
    and to insert instead thereof the words,

    "(i) Travelling expenses necessarily incurred in attending meetings of an education authority or any committee thereof;

    (ii) an allowance at uniform rates to be prescribed by the Department in respect or other personal expenses necessarily incurred and time necessarily lost from ordinary employment in attending such meetings, and

    (iii)"

    When this Bill was upstairs my right hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) moved an Amendment to this Schedule to the effect that Members of the education authorities should be compensated for time lost from remunerative employment, I expressed sympathy with the views of the right hon. Gentleman and undertook before the Report stage to endeavour to meet his point. I indicated at that stage that I thought it could best be met by a flat-rate applicable to all the members of the education authorities. After consideration of the matter with my advisers I have come to the conclusion, as I said last night, that this Amendment is best calculated to meet the wishes of my right hon. Friend. The Amendment is really based upon Subsection (7) of Section 3 of the Act of 1908—a Section which is already in full operation in Scotland—and I would like to add that the principle of this Amendment has been already adopted both in England and in Scotland in the matter of attendance of pensions committeemen. There is compensation for lost time on the part of members who attend these committees. The Amendment proposes, first of all, to provide for travelling expenses necessarily incurred and further an allowance at uni-
    376
    form rates prescribed by the Department in respect of other personal expenses necessarily incurred. I think perhaps the House will agree with me that it would be impossible, as regards time necessarily lost, to take into account the circumstances of individual cases. As I said last evening, it would be very difficult, for example, to deal in one way with the case of a miner or any other man who works with his hands and who might lose a few shillings or possibly a pound by attending such a meeting, and to deal in another way with the case of a distinguished doctor or barrister who might lose a very large fee by attending the same meeting. Accordingly it seemed to me that a solution, if it was to be found, must be found along the lines of a flat rate. What is proposed in this Amendment is that a Minute of the Department should be laid, regulating this matter and prescribing a standard allowance in consideration of time lost from remunerative employment, fixed at such a figure as would, let us say, include the case of a well-paid artisan, and that this allowance should be claimed by all who had necessarily lost time by reason of attending the meetings, whether their loss is above or below the standard fixed by the Minute. What I want to impress on the Committee is that the exact figure, which will be a matter for subsequent consideration, will, of course, be included in a Minute which will be laid upon the Table of the House and which will lie on the Table for a month. Therefore there will be the fullest Parliamentary control over the amount which is proposed, and if Parliament disapproves of the amount the usual facilities are open to it to express that disapproval. I have endeavoured as best I can to meet the case which my right hon. Friend put upstairs, as I think it was a reasonable case. My strong desire is to secure the co-operation in the working of this Act of all classes in the community, and certainly not less than others of the labouring classes. This Act will undoubtedly very closely affect Labour, and I am very anxious that no man who is appointed to represent the community upon the education authority should be debarred from doing so by paucity of means or otherwise. I desire that there should be a full and equal opportunity for all classes to perform the duties which are laid upon education authorities by this Bill, and in these circumstances I

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    move the Amendment, which I hope will commend itself to the good sense of the Committee.
    Mr. ADAMSON: As the Mover of the Amendment which raised the question which the Amendment of the Secretary for Scotland deals with, I desire to say that I am satisfied with the Amendment as now proposed. I also desire to take advantage of this opportunity of thanking the Secretary for Scotland for meeting me on this point—more particularly in view of the fact that in meeting me he has had to undertake a considerable amount of extra duty. As he well points out, if this Act is to be administered with the help and co-operation of the working classes, it can only be done on the conditions provided for in the Amendment which is before the Committee. Unless we had had some such Amendment put in the Bill it would have been impossible to have had working-class representation in the larger areas that are arranged for in this Bill. I am certain that the fact that the Secretary for Scotland has agreed to accept this and to embody it in the Bill will be much appreciated by the working classes in Scotland, and on their behalf and my own I thank him very much for the concession that he has made and for the extra trouble that he has had to undertake in order to give effect to the promise that he made during the Committee stage upstairs.
    Mr. J. HENDERSON: I quite agree with what my right hon. Friend says, but I would like to give a word of caution to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland. I have some experience in regard to these payments in respect of certain committee meetings which have been held in connection with pensions and Labour Exchanges, and I want him to guard against abuses which have certainly taken place. There are first-class tickets which have been given to men to come to London, and they came third-class and pocketed the difference; and he must be on his guard in drawing up his table of fees to prevent anything in the way of profit-making out of these sums. There is no doubt whatever that this will be a very serious addition to the rates, and it therefore behoves us, while quite willingly granting expenses, to take care that there is no temptation put into the scale.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Bill reported.
    As amended (on recommittal), considered.
    Mr. MUNRO: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    My voice has been heard so much on the Second Heading of this Bill, and subsequently during ten days in the Scottish Grand Committee upstairs, as well as on the Report stage yesterday, that I should be well content, apart from one consideration, to remain silent at this stage. That consideration is that I feel hound, as a matter of courtesy and of gratitude, to tender my acknowledgment of the co-operation which I have been fortunate enough to secure, both inside the House and outside the House, in connection with the Bill, without which, indeed, it would have been impossible that a measure of this kind, which is, as the House well-knows, a difficult measure, should have reached the stage which it has reached to-day. I am well aware that some of its provisions, both administrative and educational, did not commend themselves to all my Scottish colleagues, but if differences were disclosed, so also I think was disclosed essential agreement in making the Bill perfectly safe. I want to express my gratitude to my Scottish colleagues in particular, and to the House as a whole, for the rare magnanimity—if I may say so—with which personal predilections were subordinated in order to secure the safety of the measure on its way to the Statute Book. In this connection I would like, if I may, to pay a tribute to one of our colleagues who has passed away since this Bill was first introduced and who took part in the first discussion which took place upon it—I mean Mr. Sutherland, the Member for the Elgin Burghs, whose educational distinction we all recognise and whose death we all mourn.
    6.0 P.M.
    On the question of the transferred schools I acknowledged last night the extreme moderation and reasonableness with which I was met by my Nationalist colleagues. I should like to add to that, if I may, that on the part of my Protestant friends in dealing with that particular Clause, which, as the House will readily recognise, contained some difficult provisions, I received precisely the same fair and reasonable treatment which I experienced in the quarter to which I have just alluded. I should like also to make special acknowledgment of the attitude adopted by the Church Education Committees upon the vexed question of religious instruction. I

    379
    quite appreciated their concern with regard to that matter, and it was my intention and desire to allay it if I could. They met me half way in a very fair manner, and so solved a problem which was very difficult and essentially debateable, and which would have occupied a great deal of time in this House, apart from the very generous attitude which was adopted by the Churches with regard to it. One of my Friends upstairs was good enough to predict when we separated at the end of the Grand Committee that I should have what he termed a hectic recess. The prophecy turned out to be ill-founded, but the events of these months which have intervened between the two stages of the Bill have at least exploded the myth which was credited in some quarters that this Bill was insufficiently considered in the country and might slip through without observation. I am quite sure that no recent measure in Scotland was more talked about, written about, and even preached about, during the Recess, than this particular Bill, the Third Reading of which I am about to move. I do not in the least deprecate the discussion which took place. It was entirely valuable, and I am glad that it occurred. One further expression of thanks, and I am done. I think I am bound to acknowledge the assistance which I have received throughout from the Educational Institute of Scotland who represent teachers in the matter. This has been called a teachers' Bill. If that means that it has been instigated and dictated by the teaching profession, I can only say that that, too, is a myth, but if, on the other hand, it is meant that I recognise, and the Bill recognises, that a contented teacher, reasonably secure in his position and reasonably remunerated for his work, is an essential feature of successful education, then this is a teachers' Bill. I prefer, however, to think of it, and to describe it, as a children's Bill. I think that the needs of the children of Scotland, in view of the actual necessities of the present time and of the necessities of the future, early and remote, is the key-note of every Clause of this Bill, and has supplied the driving force which has ensured its progress to the present stage. In these circumstances, I beg to move the Third Reading of the Bill.
    Mr. GULLAND: I think I may speak, in the absence of my two colleagues who have been Secretaries for Scotland, the feelings of every Scottish Member in the House, that we heartily congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on having reached this stage of the Bill in such an amicable mood. We also thank him most heartily for his uniform courtesy, fairness, and reasonableness to us. He has not accepted all our Amendments, but he has accepted quite a large number, and some of great importance, and I am quite sure that all the Scottish Members, and indeed everyone interested in education in Scot land, will be very willing, when the Bill receives the Royal Assent, to work most heartily to bring it into effective use, because, after all, we are merely sketching a plan The plan has to be worked out in Scotland by all the people interested in education, and it is of the greatest moment that this new era should be entered upon in the heartiest possible way. I should like to join with the right hon. Gentleman in what he said about our colleague, the late Member for the Elgin Burghs. It was my melancholy duty to-day to move the writ for the vacancy caused by his death. I am quite sure we all feel that he was one of the men who really knew education in Scotland. He was anxious, you will remember, on the Second Reading Debate, that there should be an inquiry into education in Scotland, and it was only because of his intense interest in the problem that he wished that this settlement should be as full as possible, and should be as advanced as possible, so that Scottish education might retain its position of pre-eminence in the world.
    A little while ago I was casting my eye over the Second Reading Debate, and the points that I myself brought out. Now, I cannot say that all these have been met. The Secretary for Scotland maintained his position of creating his authority and then devolving upon school management committees. That is a new idea in Scotland, and I can only say I do hope that it will work well. The next point to which I would like to refer is this: He has, in his Clause about secondary education and the desire for assisting and making provision for children of promise, many alternatives of how those children can best be assisted, and I am sure Scottish Members will watch with great interest how these alternatives are utilised. I, for one, feel that you will not merely do it by sending

    381
    a lot of country children into towns to attend big schools. For instance, the word "hostel" is mentioned there, but during the passage of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman has done nothing at all to provide money for the policy of building or equipping hostels for these country children, and I do urge upon him once again—I have done it several times, and I think the people of Scotland, when they realise, will come to the same conclusion—that he really must put his back into the matter, and make arrangements whereby these country children shall he properly attended to when they leave home and go into the towns for their secondary education. Then, with regard to the continuation schools, the Bill has gone back rather there, because three years has been allowed before the system comes into operation.
    Mr. MUNRO: It is four years in front of England.
    Mr. GULLAND: Yes; but the Bill has receded three years from the appointed day. I do not want to be controversial at all, but that means that the right hon. Gentleman has got three years to popularise compulsory continuation schools in Scotland, and public opinion has got to be educated about it. Quite a large number of people in Scotland are not keen about this, and I think a good deal of educational work has to be undertaken to popularise the idea of compulsory continuation schools during the three years that must elapse before they come into operation. I am very glad the Bill has been improved by quite a large number of what one might call small reforms, all, however, very important in their own way—the provision of nursery schools, the question of the employment of children, the raising of the age for street trading, and a number of other points of that nature.
    There are only two other points to which I wish to refer. One is about the expenditure. We have really not had any definite undertaking as to what proportion of the very large cost involved in this Bill will be borne by Government Grants. We are still dependent on the money that goes to England, and I think the education authorities will not be very long before they come to the right hon. Gentleman and want to know exactly how much money they are going to get. I think he told us on Second Reading that it was to be a fixed proportion of the expendi-
    382
    ture He has not yet told us what proportion. The education authorities, I think, are asking 75 per cent. I do not know whether, as he has got his Bill through now, he will be prepared to tell us exactly what proportion he will give, but perhaps before the Bill reaches its final stage that proportion may be given. Then another similar point is as to the new provisions for inspection. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the old idea of payment by grants is abolished, and with it, of course, the existing system of inspection, but, notwithstanding many enquiries on the subject, we have not yet got any detailed account of what the new inspection is to be, or how the reports of the inspectors are to be given in to enable the school to get the maximum grant. I do not, know whether he can now give us any information about that, but it really is of great importance for the actual working of the Bill. I sincerely trust that this new legislation will work out for the benefit, not only of the teachers, not only of the parents, but of the children in Scotland.
    Mr. ADAMSON: I want to join in congratulating the Secretary for Scotland, on behalf of my colleagues and myself, on the stage that he has reached with the present Bill. Like the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, I also want to thank him for the courtesy and consideration that he has displayed towards Members in the course of the various stages through which this Bill has passed. This Bill is a great advance on the present position, and I believe will be of considerable advantage educationally to the people of Scotland. Like other Members, I have not got everything that I wanted during the course of the consideration of this Bill, and there are just one or two points to which I wish to attract the attention of the Secretary for Scotland and the House, where I think that the absence of the things that I tried to secure will weaken the Bill and will make its administration more difficult than it would otherwise be. As the House and the Secretary for Scotland know, both in Committee and on Report I made a serious effort to get the principle of the maintenance grant carried to a much wider extent than is provided for here. My failure to get this principle in the broad general manner in which I desired to pet it will, to a considerable degree, I think, increase the difficulty of administering this Bill when it becomes

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    an Act. At the same time, I readily grant that the provision contained in Clause 5 is a considerable advancement on the present position, and I have no doubt that some of the advanced local authorities in Scotland will not be long in testing the exact powers which Clause 5 gives to them with regard to the question of maintenance, travelling expenses, school fees, and that sort of thing. What I would like to do at this moment for those authorities, who, I am certain, in the near future will be bold enough, and I think wise enough, is to bespeak for them the favourable consideration of the Secretary for Scotland and the Board of Education itself.
    The next point in which, I think, the Bill is weaker in consequence of the want of some of the Amendments which I suggested, is in regard to a matter which has been already referred to by the right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House. I think that the Secretary for Scotland would have been well advised to have accepted my Amendment providing for 75 per cent. of the costs being met from Imperial sources, instead of the present arrangement which he has embodied in this Bill. I think that the future will reveal the fact that the cost of education, and consequently the local school rates, will be largely increased. That is a serious matter, and one that may cripple the effective administration of this Bill. That danger would have been removed if the right hon. Gentleman had accepted the Amendment which I proposed in the Committee stage dealing with the matter. Not only was it the general wish of the school boards of Scotland that 75 per cent. of the cost should be borne from Imperial sources, but it was the universal wish of the working classes that that should be the case. One other point that I brought to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman was the question of the size of the classes. There, again, he could not see his way to deal with the matter along the lines I suggested: I think, as a consequence, the Bill may not be as successful as it otherwise would be. At the same time I want frankly to say that I believe this is a great advance on the present position, and I take this opportunity of congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the passage, through its various stages, of a Bill that I look upon as the biggest measure he has
    384
    had the privilege of piloting through this House since he filled the office of Secretary for Scotland.
    Sir H. CRAIK: I do not intend at this stage to put forward any criticism of the Bill, I only rise to offer, in a very few words, my most sincere congratulations on the part my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has played in a subject which has occupied the country for so long. I remember long ago sitting under the Gallery there, where I played a very subordinate part in the arrangements for drafting the Act of 1870. It is very pleasant for me now to be able to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the fact that he has put the great coping stone upon the work that was then begun. I do not want to indulge in reminiscences, nor to admire too much the past times, for I am convinced of this, that this is an immense advance, and none know that better than those who took a part in the earlier building up of the structure upon which my right hon. Friend has now placed the coping stone. We tried experimental plans in 1872. No one is more rejoiced than I am who took a humble part in that earlier building. No one is more rejoiced than that now a new and larger structure has been built by the exertions of my hon. Friend. A new land of promise is opening up to my countrymen. It is, as he says, not merely in the interests of any one class. No one is more thankful than I am to think of the benefit which may now come to that most deserving of all classes amongst us—the teachers of this country. But it is not their interest only which I have sought to push forward. I have struggled for them only because I believed in my heart that their interests were identical with those of the children of the schools, and, what is more, with the prosperity of the country to which we belong. I am certain that in the larger authorities that the Bill of my right hon. Friend will establish we will have new opportunities for education; that these will open new pathways. I am not concerned to point out this or that defect in the Bill. I am quite certain, however, that when these larger authorities enter upon their powers they will so justify their creation that they will exercise a larger measure of authority, and I believe they will press upon the Government—and successfully—the requirements of education. I have not the least fear that these new educational authorities will rise to their duties and make proper representations to

    385
    the Government, or to this House; and that they will obtain adequte means of carrying on their great work. I say, "God-speed," to those who have the carrying out of this new scheme. I can believe that their action in the future will be worthy of the past, and that our country has a great advantage in the prospect opening out by this new Bill.
    Mr. BOLAND: I desire, with my colleague the hon. Member for North Sligo (Mr. Scanlan), to associate myself with the congratulations offered to the Secretary for Scotland. At the same time I would say that I appreciate, on behalf of my colleague and myself, the references to our action during the passage of this Bill. Whilst representing the Irish party, and looking after the interests of the Catholic schools in Scotland, we were strengthened very materially by the assistance we obtained from outside. We had the advantage of being in close touch with the Catholic hierarchy in Scotland and the Catholic Education Council. The assistance which we obtained from the Secretary to the Education Council, and more particularly from Monseigneur Brown, the Apostolic Visitor for Scotland, was invaluable. His assistance, not merely when the Bill was passing, but in the delegate negotiations my colleague and myself had with the Secretary for Scotland, proved him absolutely indispensable. I cannot help saying that the safeguards we have succeeded in obtaining for the Catholic schools are to a large extent due to his invaluable advice and assistance. I cannot before sitting down refrain from expressing the hope that on one or two points something may be done which has not yet been done in the Bill. I refer especially to the position of the teachers during the period before the schools are transferred. I believe it will be in the power of the Treasury to meet the increasing demands which the teachers of Scotland require to have satisfied before they are in a sound financial position. If I might, I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to use his influence with the Treasury before the schools are transferred, so that something may be done to enable the teachers of these schools to get some increase of salary in the intervening period. I believe it will be of value to the whole settlement, because the quicker the schools are transferred the better, naturally, it will be.
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    The other matter is one to which I referred yesterday with regard to the register. I still hope that, though a great number of the men will not be able to vote in the near future, that steps will be taken as soon as possible, to enable everyone, whether they are in the forces or not to vote on the Education Bill. In conclusion, I cannot help feeling that, so far as the denominational schools in Scotland are concerned, and especially the Catholic schools, for which my colleague and myself have been working in this matter, a very important era has opened. They have now come within the national system. I know the sacrifices that our people in Scotland have made for many years in maintaining the Catholic schools at their own expense. Now that they have come within the national system, I believe it will be to the good, and that the Scottish people will find that when the Catholic schools are so brought within the national system it will be good for the education of the country. I am sure of this: Owing to the very fair and courteous way in which the Secretary for Scotland has mot our representations, he has laid the foundation of that good feeling which is the best foundation for a good educational system.
    Mr. WHITEHOUSE: The speakers who have addressed the House on this occasion have spoken of the courtesy, consideration, tact, and ability with which the Secretary for Scotland has piloted this Bill through all its stages. I am quite sure that those views expressed the feeling of every Member of this House, and I shall not occupy the time of the House by repeating them. Perhaps, however, I may be allowed to say in reference to the speech just delivered by the hon. Member for Glasgow University (Sir H. Craik), that though he belongs to a different political party to mine I am quite sure that, however much others of us may disagree from him on ordinary political questions and other questions, there is not one of us who would not desire to pay tribute to the disinterested service he has always rendered to the cause of education, and the high ideals with which in this matter he is inspired.
    In the Bill we are now discussing there is a matter which I think is vital to the future of the Bill. It at last gives us in Scotland a common unified system. I well know what the right hon. Gentleman knows, and I am sure he thinks the people of Scotland will soon realise that this Bill is an advance

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    on the English Education Bill. It gives Scotland a unified system under which elementary education is no longer the education of certain classes of the people. It gives rich and poor alike a new system of secondary education. Having that unified system will mean an increasingly greater influence in the communal and civic spirit of Scotland. It is in accord with the best traditions of the village schools of Scotland, which so often have been the common schools of all classes of the people. That is what I hope, and what I rise chiefly to say is that I trust the lesson will be learnt by the English democracy, and that they will not long be content with the educational system which is so infinitely behind the system adumbrated in this Bill for the democracy of Scotland. There is one other point I desire to put forward. I want to make an appeal, even at this stage of the Bill, to the Secretary for Scotland. He and his advisers will agree, I think, that the greatest influence in the lives of the children of the schools is the personality of the men and the women who surround them and have charge of their education. The tragedy of education in both countries has been that the teaching profession has so often been starved. I regret that it is not possible under the Rules of Order in this House to raise the one question which I think is responsible for the operation of this evil to-day—I refer to the unjust discrimination that takes place in regard to the salaries of the women and men teachers for the same class of work. I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will throw all his influence—and it is great—in encouraging the local authorities throughout Scotland to make a more just provision respecting the salaries of the women teachers, and to realise that they should be treated as fairly and as generously as the men teachers. Although a provision to this effect is not in the Bill, and it was not possible to insert it in the Bill, yet I hope that the same result in a great measure may be attained through the administrative influence of the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. SHAW: Now that the Secretary for Scotland has passed safely through the barrage of congratulations to which he has been subjected to-day, I hope he will go forth from the House bearing his blush-
    388
    ing honours with the dourness of a Scot and the suavity of a lawyer. During the Grand Committee stage he was subjected to a barrage of a somewhat different kind. I am sure we shall all re-echo the tribute paid to the right hon. Gentleman yesterday by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh for the courtesy and patience which he has maintained throughout all the proceedings upon this Bill. I should like to especially thank the Lord Advocate for the very fair way he treated us with regard to a number of very complicated matters with which he dealt. The school management committees have been given real and definite powers, and proper representation has been secured upon them. In many respects these committees will take the place of the school boards, and many of us hope that the best of the personnel of the existing school boards will gravitate on to the school management committees. I know that the Secretary for Scotland does not care for tributes from those who have opposed him at every stage of the Bill, and a great many of his Scottish colleagues are in that category. Many of us, although we think we could have had a much better Bill, will never agree that we could have had a better Secretary for Scotland.
    Mr. HARRY HOPE: I think this measure sets up an important landmark in the history of education in Scotland. During the Committee stage the Secretary for Scotland introduced two very important Amendments, one dealing with religious instruction, and a very wise change was brought in. There is no subject which has brought about so much unanimity in Scotland for a very long time as that of religious instruction. The other important Amendment is that which provides more flexibility with regard to continuation schools. The agricultural interest is very strong, and they have been unanimous in recommending that flexibility is required in order to make a success of continuation schools. I think if some amendment had not been made the measure would have operated very badly indeed, and it might have defeated the main object of the authors of the Bill if the continuation schools had been left in a hard, cast-iron manner. By the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has put into the Bill I think the country districts are placed in a better position, and if we give flexibility to the administration of

    389
    the continuation schools work, that will be to their advantage and according to their desires. Those two changes have made a great improvement in the Bill and I am very thankful the right hon. Gentleman has seen fit to make them.
    Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Perhaps I may be pardoned for saying a word or two in this Debate. The Secretary for Scotland is an old colleague with whom I worked in great harmony for a long time in the Scottish Office. I was rather struck with the remark made by the hon. and learned Member opposite who spoke of the suavity of the lawyer. As an outsider and a person who hopes that he may not be cross-examined in the dock, but who is always liable to be cross-examined as a witness, I think the compliment as to the suavity of lawyers admits of some qualification. I am glad that this Bill has passed into law. I think it is a good measure and it is a hopeful augury that in a period of political truce the Government should have passed through the House of Commons Bills dealing with education in England and in Scotland. That is a subject which will have a great deal to do with the lasting stability of this country in the years which are before us, when we shall be passing through a period in which a nation with weaker resources would have to face a greater task.
    I am very glad that we have strengthened the position of education in both parts of the country. It would have been a matter of deep personal regret to me if England had obtained her Bill and Scotland had been behindhand. I am particularly glad perhaps from a little different point of view to my hon. Friends below the Gangway that a large proportion of the children of the city which I have the honour to represent are to have the advantage of a fuller education. It has always been a sad thing to think that something like one-fifth of the children of Glasgow were being educated in starved schools by starved teachers. Now that state of things has passed away, and I am very glad my right hon. Friend has been able to perform the very difficult task of settling an ancient controversy which it was absolutely necessary should not go unsettled any longer. That is one feature of the Bill which gives me the deepest satisfaction. The other teature is that the young lads and girls of Scotland will have fuller opportunities of
    390
    education than they have enjoyed in thy past. I think one must also feel that it is a good thing that there will be a higher and a better recognition of the teaching profession.
    One of the things that has always struck me, and it is true not only of this but of many other countries, is that the rewards of learning are extremely inadequate. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not legal learning!"] That is suavity and it produces large rewards. I think it is a good thing that we should recognise fully the profession upon which the future of the country so much depends, and that profession must not only be adequately rewarded but it must have a higher status than it has had in the past. I congratulate my two right hon. Friends upon their conduct of this Bill. We have managed to get through it with a great deal of concord, and I think it would have been a most improper thing if Scotsmen in considering great questions did not argue about them. I entirely differ from my right hon. Friend in regard to the Debate this afternoon about rating. The only consolation I have upon that subject is that the thing is left in such an impossible position that I hope it will bring about what I have longed for and urgently desired, namely, a thorough reform of the basis of rating in this country. I am very glad that we have been able at a time when legislation has been almost impossible to present to Scotland this great measure of social advancement.
    Mr. SCANLAN: I desire to say a word or two on the Third Reading of this Bill, in which I have taken very deep interest. I wish to pay a tribute to the right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench who has piloted this measure through. I believe I am the only member of the Irish National party who has had experience of Scottish life and of Scottish Universities, and I feel I ought to pay a tribute to the generosity of the people of Scotland for the way they have made provision for education. With regard to the teachers, as there is an admission from the Lord Advocate and the Secretary for Scotland that the teachers in transferred schools in some instances will be subjected to injustice, I am going to ask that those who have supported this measure should make a recommendation to the Government to alleviate the condition of those teachers. It is very easy to do this during the interval between the passing of the Bill and the transfer of the schools,

    391
    because those teachers will be subject to a very real and serious grievance. I am sure the Secretary for Scotland and the Lord Advocate realise that if all who have supported the Amendment for the grading of teachers and the proper payment of them will support a submission to the Government for doing justice immediately to those people, they will be doing something to do justice to those people, and they will be remedying a grievance which is acutely felt in Scotland. I offer my congratulations to the Secretary for Scotland upon the passing of this Bill.
    Mr. WATT: I desire to add my praise to the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench who have successfully piloted this Bill through to the Third Reading, for it is a great Bill. There is only one thing I regret, and it is the extraordinary powers that have been handed over to the Department. We know that the Department is really a single individual. The three first Clauses of the Bill give powers to the Secretary for Scotland to do certain things, but in the rest of the Bill the powers are handed over to the Department. These are not days for the setting up or the increase of the powers of autocrats, for they are days when autocrats are being set down, and in that respect I regret that this measure is not up to the spirit of the age—indeed, it is increasing the powers of an autocratic Department and rendering it even more powerful than it is at the present time. That is my only objection. I should have been more pleased if the Secretary for Scotland had retained the powers he has given over to that Department. At the beginning, when framing this measure, the right hon. Gentleman took the powers to himself, and then the autocracy got hold of him, and after the first three Clauses the Department got all the powers. Notwithstanding that defect, however, I think the measure is one of which Scotland will be proud, and the two right hon. Gentlemen who had charge of this measure deserve the greatest credit.
    Mr. BOOTH: I think, before the Bill finally disappears, an English Member may be pardoned for protesting against the two-faced attitude of the Government upon the education question. The arguments which have been used about this Bill, if they are true, as I think one must submit that they are, seeing that they commend themselves even to a critic like
    392
    my hon. Friend (Mr. Watt), show the English Bill to be thoroughly bad. I am the only English Member who has tried to sit through the whole of the Debates on the Second Reading, the Report stage, and the Third Reading, and I admit that my impression is that the Scottish Bill is much better than the English Bill. The Bills are alike in one respect, and perhaps two. They give great powers and freedom to the authority, and they apply compulsion and even compulsory robbery to the poor. In that respect the two Bills are alike. You compulsorily deprive the poor people of the earnings of their children. You may be justified to send the children to school, but you do not make the parents any recompense. This Bill, therefore, will be exceedingly unpopular, and you will need an amending Bill. You have no right either in England or Scotland, however learned or professorial and adroit Ministers may be, to use an accidental authority derived from the War to dragoon people in the way that these Bills do, and you will find out your mistake before very long. A warning was given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Gulland), and I have no doubt that he has his finger upon the pulse of the constituencies. He gave a hint that the compulsory continuation classes were not understood or popular in Scotland and that a great educative work was needed. I again appeal to the Government, before they bring in this advanced legislation, to do some educative work and to convince the country. The Education Minister (Mr. Herbert Fisher) has done some in England, I do not know to what extent my two right hon. Friends are going to do any in Scotland, but unless they do some really pioneer and educative work they will be obstructed very greatly by possibly mistaken sentiment.
    The chief feature of this Bill, as I understand from the Secretary for Scotland, is that it retains the ad hoc authorities. A conspicuous feature of the English system is that you have thrown them over. I was talking lately to one or two Lord Mayors in this country, and they say that since the English system was adopted there has been very much less interest taken in education than there was when there were special authorities. You are sticking to them in Scotland. Fortunately, the Ministerial Bench is occupied on these two Education Bills by totally different tenants. I do not know that any of the

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    Scottish Members had the courage to come in during the English Education Debates, I think that they were wise. Their Bill being of an entirely different character, they would have felt very much inclined to vote against their English colleagues if they had heard the speeches. It was much easier to vote with them if they kept in their offices and just came and marched through the Lobbies. How can the Government justify this Bill and the English Bill? No one with any sense of logic can do it. I myself think that the system in Scotland is the better one. I am not one of those who regret that it cannot come into force for three years. It would probably be better if it were postponed beyond that. We have had more than one example of passing Bills in advance of public opinion in this country. There was the great Insurance Act. Perhaps I am making a needless appeal to the Scottish Minister, but I made it on the English Bill and I make it now to him. A great deal of the unpopularity and the difficulties which will surround this measure can be met if the subject is boldly tackled by the Government, and if Members of Parliament and the nation are convinced that these great sacrifices are necessary in the future interests of the children. I made that appeal to the English Minister, though I do not suppose that there will be any great response, but in Scotland, at any rate, education has never been the subject of party controversy as it has been in England, and I hope it never may. The Debate has convinced me that it is not possible in the lifetime of the present Members.
    I do not protest against the Government sending out whips and compelling this House to vote black one day and white another day on this subject of education. There is no earthly reason, if an ad hoc authority is a proper thing in Glasgow, why it should not exist in Manchester. The climate is very similar, and the industry or thrift of the people and even the dialect are very similar. No attempt has ever been made, either on the English Bill, or on this Bill, to give the slightest justification for this double-faced attitude of the Government. I am quite sure that it will bring disaster in the future. I cannot see either this Bill or the English Bill coming into operation without an amending Bill. I am perfectly sure that they will have to amend the rating Clause in the Scottish Bill. I came
    394
    this afternoon with a leaning rather to the plan of the Bill, but for two hours I heard a discussion of apparently three bad systems of Scottish rating. They all seemed to me atrocious and I hardly liked to vote for any of them, but I singled out the one which seemed to make most for unity in the counties. I was thoroughly convinced, however, that we only had a choice between three very evil systems so that I think there will be an amending Bill with regard to that matter. Perhaps my criticisms are not of very much advantage, but I attach most importance to my appeal that some educative steps should be taken so that public opinion, public sympathy, and the support of all the local authorities may go up with this great measure of reform.
    Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  IMPERIAL PREFERENCE.
  Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir D. Maclean), pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Mr. PRINGLE: At Question Time there were a few questions in the name of the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), the answers to which gave rise to a perfect fusillade of supplementary questions, and it was on account of the little satisfaction that was given by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Hewins) that I intimated that I would raise the question on the Adjournment. The question referred to the policy of the Government in relation to Imperial Preference. The first was
  "To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state whether India and Egypt were parties to the arrangement in regard to Colonial Preference, and what articles were to be the subject of preference."
  The second was
  "To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can give any information as to the agreement arrived at with the self-governing Dominions and Colonies as to Colonial Preference."
  The right hon. Gentleman, in the first instance, referred to a former answer, and in reply to the first supplementary he

  395
  informed the hon. Member opposite that he was ignorant of the British Constitution. Subsequently there were a number of answers which I believe left the whole House in a state of absolute vagueness as to the policy and intentions of His Majesty's Government. It is extremely important that we should have this matter made as clear as possible at the earliest moment. We know that there is a likelihood in the early future of a General Election, and in these circumstances there is nothing more important than that we should have clearly defined the policy of the Government, so that the country may decide upon a definite policy at the election, and so that there may not in the future be the slightest doubt that whatever policy is adopted by the Government is policy which has the approval of the country. As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman has told us that the Government have accepted the Resolution of the Imperial Conference, which is to the effect that in respect of duties at present existing and duties hereafter to be imposed there should be a preference within the Empire. Undoubtedly, if the policy of Preference is to be confined to existing duties on imported articles, it does not amount to much. It is a policy with a very big name which has extremely little substance. It makes it really a shop-window policy. The whole significance of the adoption of this policy of Imperial Preference by the Government therefore lies in the articles upon which hereafter duties are to be imposed.
  I do not know that the Under-Secretary for the Colonies can give us any clear statement. No doubt he has had an opportunity between four o'clock and now of consultation, but it is possible that he may not make matters very clear. We have, however, certain precedents in regard to Imperial Preference. We know
  396
  that the great apostle of Imperial Preference was the late Mr. Chamberlain, and that the present Under-Secretary for the Colonies won considerable distinction as one of its main advocates. In these circumstances, we are happy to have him here to deal with the question this evening. We know that Mr. Chamberlain was quite frank in facing all the difficulties of the policy which he adopted. He treated the country with absolute candour, and one of the earliest statements which he made in the fiscal campaign was that if you were going to give a preference to the Colonies you must put a tax upon food. While I have not taken the trouble to look up the writings of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies or to consult the reports of his speeches, I have no doubt that it would be possible to find many statements in his speeches and writings bearing out the position which Mr. Chamberlain so frankly adopted. I am quite sure that when he is called upon to answer this evening he will not desert the opinions which he has professed in the past. Of course, these will be his individual opinions, and they will not bind the present War Cabinet, but, so far as he is personally concerned, there cannot be the slightest doubt that he holds the view—
  Notice taken that forty Members were not present.
  House counted—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Thirty-nine.
  Mr. BOOTH: There are three behind the Chair.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cannot see them.
  Forty Members not being present, the House was Adjourned at Three minutes after Seven o'clock, until Monday nest, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February.

WAR.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    INCREASED ALLOWANCES—GOVERNMENT DECISION.
    INCREASED ALLOWANCES—GOVERNMENT DECISION.
    CHILDLESS WIVES.
    CHILDLESS WIVES.
    OTHER ALLOWANCES PAYABLE BY LOCAL WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEES AND THE CIVIL LIABILITIES COMMITTEE.
    OTHER ALLOWANCES PAYABLE BY LOCAL WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEES AND THE CIVIL LIABILITIES COMMITTEE.
    SEPARATION ALLOWANCES FOR CHILDREN.
    SEPARATION ALLOWANCES FOR CHILDREN.
    ALLIED WAR AIMS.
    ALLIED WAR AIMS.
    LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
    LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
    NEW TRANSPORT COMPANY (CAPITAL).
    NEW TRANSPORT COMPANY (CAPITAL).
    BRITISH CELLULOSE COMPANY (INQUIRY).
    BRITISH CELLULOSE COMPANY (INQUIRY).
    PRESIDENT WILSON'S DECLARATIONS.
    PRESIDENT WILSON'S DECLARATIONS.
    WAR AIMS COMMITTEE.
    WAR AIMS COMMITTEE.
  FOOD SUPPLIES.
    FAT CATTLE.
    FAT CATTLE.
    BUTTER.
    BUTTER.
    MILK.
    MILK.
    POTATOES.
    POTATOES.
    BACON.
    BACON.
    SMALL HOLDINGS AND ALLOTMENTS.
    SMALL HOLDINGS AND ALLOTMENTS.
  GERMAN SUBMARINE WARFARE.
    MAILBOATS (PROTECTION).
    MAILBOATS (PROTECTION).
    MERCHANT SHIPS UNDER REPAIR.
    MERCHANT SHIPS UNDER REPAIR.
    NAVAL PRIZE MONEY.
    NAVAL PRIZE MONEY.
    DOCKYARD PENSIONERS.
    DOCKYARD PENSIONERS.
  ROYAL AIR FORCE.
    TRANSFERS.
    TRANSFERS.
    DISCHARGE.
    DISCHARGE.
    MOTOR TRANSPORT REPAIR DEPOT, CIPPENHAM.
    MOTOR TRANSPORT REPAIR DEPOT, CIPPENHAM.
    GALLIPOLI STAR.
    GALLIPOLI STAR.
    SOLDIERS' LEAVE.
    SOLDIERS' LEAVE.
    ARMY OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
    ARMY OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
    SILVER WAR BADGE.
    SILVER WAR BADGE.
  MILITARY SERVICE.
    OFFICERS AND REGIMENTS (MENTION OF SERVICES).
    OFFICERS AND REGIMENTS (MENTION OF SERVICES).
    CASES UNDER INQUIRY.
    CASES UNDER INQUIRY.
    MEN DISCHARGED "SURPLUS TO MILITARY REQUIREMENTS."
    MEN DISCHARGED "SURPLUS TO MILITARY REQUIREMENTS."
    WIDOWS' SONS.
    WIDOWS' SONS.
    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
    AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
    MINERS RELEASED.
    MINERS RELEASED.
    PRISONERS OF WAR.
    PRISONERS OF WAR.
    WAR DEPARTMENT EMPLOYES (BONUS).
    WAR DEPARTMENT EMPLOYES (BONUS).
    SOLDIERS' ACCOUNTS (QUARTERLY STATEMENTS).
    SOLDIERS' ACCOUNTS (QUARTERLY STATEMENTS).
    WAR WORK VOLUNTEERS.
      TRANSFER.
      TRANSFER.
      PAYMENTS.
      PAYMENTS.
    DISCHARGED SERVICE MEN.
    DISCHARGED SERVICE MEN.
  MUNITIONS.
    CARBIDE OF CALCIUM.
    CARBIDE OF CALCIUM.
    APPRENTICES.
    APPRENTICES.
    FACTORY EXPLOSION (INJURY PAY).
    FACTORY EXPLOSION (INJURY PAY).
  INDIA.
    DISTURBANCES (COMMISSION OF INQUIRY).
    DISTURBANCES (COMMISSION OF INQUIRY).
    METROPOLITAN POLICE.
    METROPOLITAN POLICE.
    INTERNMENT (MR. KEHRHAHN).
    INTERNMENT (MR. KEHRHAHN).
    COAL MINERS (COMPENSATION CASES).
    COAL MINERS (COMPENSATION CASES).
    ENEMY ALIENS.
    ENEMY ALIENS.
  GENERAL ELECTION.
    REGISTERED ELECTORS.
    REGISTERED ELECTORS.
    ELECTION ADDRESSES (DELIVERY).
    ELECTION ADDRESSES (DELIVERY).
    ABSENT VOTERS.
    ABSENT VOTERS.
    PAPER SUPPLY.
    PAPER SUPPLY.
    PETROL.
    PETROL.
    REGISTRATION.
    REGISTRATION.
    COAL SUPPLIES.
    COAL SUPPLIES.
    TOBACCO.
    TOBACCO.
    ENEMY PROPERTY.
    ENEMY PROPERTY.
    WAR DECORATIONS (MERCHANT SERVICE).
    WAR DECORATIONS (MERCHANT SERVICE).
    ARMOURDUCT MANUFACTURING COMPANY.
    ARMOURDUCT MANUFACTURING COMPANY.
    JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
    JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
    MINISTRY OF LABOUR (APPOINTMENTS DEPARTMENT).
    MINISTRY OF LABOUR (APPOINTMENTS DEPARTMENT).
    LIVERPOOL DOCK BATTALION.
    LIVERPOOL DOCK BATTALION.
    ROYAL NAVY (POSTAGE RATES).
    ROYAL NAVY (POSTAGE RATES).
    ROSYTH NAVAL BASE (SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION).
    ROSYTH NAVAL BASE (SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION).
    HOUSING SCHEME, LANARKSHIRE.
    HOUSING SCHEME, LANARKSHIRE.
  RUSSIA.
    BOLSHEVIK DECREES.
    BOLSHEVIK DECREES.
    JOURNALISTS' PAMPHLET.
    JOURNALISTS' PAMPHLET.
    RUSSIAN OFFICERS.
    RUSSIAN OFFICERS.
    Government Servants and Political Organisations.
    Government Servants and Political Organisations.
    Prison Dietaries.
    Prison Dietaries.
    Teachers' Salaries, Scotland.
    Teachers' Salaries, Scotland.
    Stonehenge (Mr. Chubb's Gift).
    Stonehenge (Mr. Chubb's Gift).