Sitting of 7 August 1918

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Gas Light and Coke Company Bill.

South Shields Gas Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be committed.
Provisional Order Bills (no Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 9) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.
South Metropolitan Gas Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Cannock Gas Bill, Hampton Court Gas Bill, Liverpool Gas Bill, Longwood and Slaithwaite Gas Bill, Cardiff Gas Bill, Hastings and St. Leonards Gas Bill, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Bill, Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill, Richmond Gas Bill, Southampton Gas Bill, Swansea Gas Bill, York Gas Bill, Basingstoke Gas Bill (all by Order).
Orders for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bills withdrawn.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
Alliance and Dublin Gas Bill (by Order),
Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 6) Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

NATIONAL DEBT.
Return ordered, "showing, for each financial year, commencing the 1st day of April from 1875 to 1918, inclusive:

(1) The total amount of dead-weight Debt outstanding on the 1st day of April; the amounts which were made available in each year to 1917–18, inclusive, for reduction of Debt, distinguishing the sums expressly provided for service of the Debt, the old Sinking Fund, and miscellaneous receipts; the gross amount of Debt redeemed; the amount of Debt created; and the net increase or decrease of Debt in the year;

(2) A similar Statement in respect of other capital liabilities; and

(3) A similar Statement in respect of the aggregate gross liabilities of the State."—[Mr. Baldwin.]

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
Copy presented of Eighty-sixth Annual Report of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, with Appendices, for the year ending 31st March, 1918 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
MINISTRY OF RECONSTRUCTION.
Copy presented of Final Report of Coal Conservation Committee [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
TRADE (FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND BRITISH POSSESSIONS).
Copy presented of Annual Statement of the Trade of the United Kingdom with Foreign Countries and British Possessions for 1917, compared with the four preceding years. Volume II. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
STATISTICAL ABSTRACT (UNITED KINGDOM).
Copy presented of Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years from 1902 to 1916. Sixty-fourth number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1918.
Copy presented of County Courts (Ireland) (Registration Appeals) Rules, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
PUBLIC RECORDS (CUSTOMS AND EXCISE).
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Copy of Ninth Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of Documents existing or accruing in the Office of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office [by Act].
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  WAR.
    INDIA.

      ROYAL MARINE (COMMISSIONS).
      Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state the result of the reference to the Law Officers of the Crown as to the grant to officers of the Royal Indian Marine of commissions bearing the King's sign manual similar to the commissions issued to the
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      officers of the Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, to the officers of which the status of the officers of the Royal Indian Marine is senior in equivalent relative rank?
      The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): I have not yet received through the official channel the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown, but I understand that there is no legal obstacle to the grant of King's commissions to officers of the Royal Indian Marine. Should this prove to be the case, I propose to proceed with the matter without delay.

      POLICE (PAY).
      Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state the result of his inquiry as to whether the recommendations of the local governments in India regarding the increase of pay of the Indian police, both British and Indian, have been received; and what steps have been taken by the Government of India in the matter?
      Mr. MONTAGU: I have ascertained that the Government of India have recently addressed local governments in a comprehensive letter, and have invited their recommendations, both as to the recruitment and the pay of the police services, and have asked for expeditious treatment of the matter.

      ARMY OFFICERS (UNEMPLOYED).
      Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state the result of his conference with the War Office on the subject of allowing senior officers on the unemployed list of the Indian Army to be placed on the retired list?
      Mr. MONTAGU: I regret that I have not yet received a reply from the War Office?
      Colonel YATE: How is it that this matter is in the hands of the War Office? Has not the Secretary of State for India full powers to settle questions relating to the retirement of unemployed officers of the Indian Army?
      Mr. MONTAGU: The ultimate decision will, of course, rest with the Council of India, The financial considerations will require careful examination, and it is

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      necessary, as it affects in similar cases the British Army, to consult the War Office.
      Colonel YATE: May we hope for a speedy settlement of this case?
      Mr. MONTAGU: I think it will not be very long before I get an answer from the War Office.
      Colonel YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate it to me?
      Mr. MONTAGU: I will let my hon. and gallant Friend know as soon as I get it.

      CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES.
      Colonel YATEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can now state the result of his reference to the Government of India regarding the extension of the grant of children's allowances, given to officers of the British Service serving in India, to officers of the Indian Army?
      Mr. MONTAGU: Proposals for the grant of children's allowances to officers of the Indian Army, Indian Army Reserve, and Indian Medical Service have been received from the Government of India, and are under reference to the War Office. I have proposed that the allowances should be granted with retrospective effect to 1st October, 1917, the date of the commencement of the allowance for British Service officers.

    ROYAL NAVY (SHIPS' COOKS).
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the Royal Navy ships' cooks' appeal for 1918; whether the concessions asked therein are being considered; and, if so, will he say when an answer may be expected?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): Certain questions affecting the cooks' ratings are under consideration. Decision will be taken as soon as possible.

    MILITARY SERVICE.

      SHIPYARD LABOUR.
      Mr. HOUSTONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state the number of skilled shipyard workers and
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      engineers who have, during the past six months, been brought back from the Army and employed in the actual building of ships, engines, and boilers, apart from the making of slipways or berths, and the number of similar men who have, during the same period, been drafted from the yards and engine shops into the Army?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: Approximately, 12,500 shipyard workers have been brought back from the Army during the past six months and employed in the actual building of ships, engines, and boilers None of these men have been employed on the construction of shipyards or berths. They are not all skilled workers, a small proportion being semi-skilled. As regards the second part of the question, I would remind my hon. Friend that it was stated on the 8th July, in reply to the Member for the Hexham Division, that it would not be in the public interest to give the information asked for.
      Mr. HOUSTON: In view of the present state of British shipbuilding, is it not imperative that we should have more men in the shipyards, and can the right hon. Gentleman say whether men who have been brought back are equally skilled in efficiency with those taken away?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: The great bulk of them are, as I have said, skilled men. I associate myself with what my hon. Friend says about the necessity for getting skilled men.
      Mr. G. LAMBERT: Are any skilled men being recruited from the shipyards to-day for the Army?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: The last part of the answer says that on the 8th July, on behalf of the Minister of National Service, it was stated that it was not in the public interest to give the information asked for.
      Mr. LAMBERT: Are they being recruited at the present time from the shipyards for the Army?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot say off-hand.
      Mr. ROCH: Are not large numbers of these 12,500 men Grade 3 men quite unfit for the heavy work of the shipyards and therefore useless for the purpose?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot say in regard to their grade.
      Mr. WILKIE: Does the right hon. Gentleman still hold that apprentices up to eighteen years of age should be taken from the shipyards?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: Perhaps my hon. Friend will speak to me about that.

      SERVICE WITH COLOURS.
      Mr. FFRENCHasked the under-secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private W. Fennessy, No. 45491, Hussars, British Expeditionary Force, France, joined the Army for eight years with the Colours and four years with the Reserve, and an extra year if required, and, having carried out his part of the agreement with the Government, he thinks he is entitled to his discharge; and if the Government will carry out their part of the agreement and give this soldier his discharge?
      The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Macpherson): I am making inquiries in this case, and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

      ARREST AT CREGGS, COUNTY GALWAY.
      Mr. HAZLETONasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state on what grounds Edward Brennan, Friaryland, Creggs, county Galway, was arrested at his home at 4 a.m. on 31st July and deported from Ireland without any process of Law to Warrington where, without being given time to arrange for his defence, he was handed over to the military authorities as liable to Conscription in spite of the fact that, except for the four months from 13th June, 1915, to 14th October of the same year which he spent in England, he was never out of Ireland and had no home or domicile other than at Creggs; and will he see that this man is at once discharged from the Army?
      The MINISTER of NATIONAL SERVICE (Sir A. Geddes): My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I had not heard of this case until I saw the hon. Member's question, but am having inquiries made into the facts.

      BUSINESS MEN (CONSCRIPTION).
      Major CHAPPLEasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the improved and promising military position of the Allies, the approach of winter when less fighting on the Western Front will be done, the demonstration by America of
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      the numbers and fighting qualities of the troops she has sent and is sending to the Allied battle fronts, and the interference with trade, commerce, and industry that is resulting from the conscription of men who are the mainstay of great national and vital interests, he will take steps to modify the demand made by the military authorities for such men?
      The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Bonar Law): I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that all the considerations referred to in the question are being taken into account by the Government.
      Colonel ASHLEY: Are we to understand that the Government still wish to continue the disastrous policy of conscripting men over forty-five?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: We do not wish to continue any disastrous policy. Certainly we do not wish to take away men from essential industries if it can be avoided.
      Colonel ASHLEY: Are these men of any use in the firing line?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: It is obvious that these men would not be taken unless those who are more competent to judge than either my hon. Friend or I can possibly be thought they should be taken.
      Major CHAPPLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any hope of a modification if conditions improve?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: Yes; certainly I have that hope.
      Mr. STANTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the position of conscientious objectors before he continues taking these men from their business?

      WOOLWICH ARSENAL (RELEASE OF YOUNG MEN).
      Colonel ASHLEYasked the Minister of Munitions why no steps are being taken to comb out the young men in Woolwich Arsenal and fill their places with men discharged from the Services?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS (Mr. Kellaway): My hon. and gallant Friend is mistaken in supposing that no steps have been taken to release for military service young men in Woolwich Arsenal.

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      The release of men for military service from the Arsenal has been going on continuously for some time. Of the 42,000 males at present employed there, there are now only 700 fit for general service who are not covered by the Schedule of Protected Occupations. Of these, about 390 are in process of being called up, and the remainder will be released as soon as the substitutes who are being trained are ready to take their place.
      In taking on men to fill the places of those released for military service, preference is always given to men discharged from His Majesty's Forces.
      Colonel ASHLEY: Has the hon. Gentleman received a protest from the Shoreditch Tribunal dealing with this scandal, and has he really inquired and found that these discharged men are being taken on? My information is that they are not.
      Mr. KELLAWAY: During May and June 522 men were taken on, 314 of whom were discharged soldiers. There is no scandal there.

    ENEMY SUBMARINES.

      TONNAGE SUNK.
      Mr. HOUSTONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that British tonnage sunk by enemy action was much greater in July than in June, and can he state to what extent in gross registered tonnage; whether he is aware that many of the British ships sunk were liners, and that the standard or fabricated vessels built, or which may be built, do not suitably or efficiently replace the lost liners; whether he is aware that for some time past British tonnage lost is greater than British tonnage built; that other nations, notably America and Japan, are addingly largely to their merchant tonnage, while Great Britain's is diminishing; and whether arrangements are being made to replace with suitable vessels the British liners lost, apart from standard or fabricated ships?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of SHIPPING (Sir L. Chiozza Money): I have boon asked to answer this question. I am glad to say that the suggestion made in the first part of the question is erroneous. In spite of the loss of the "Justicia," a vessel of 32,120 gross tons, on 21st July,
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      the losses of British shipping by enemy action last month were lower than in June. The actual figures for July cannot, by agreement with the Allies, be published before the 29th August. With regard to the remainder of the question, the important point to which my hon. Friend draws attention is not being overlooked. As will be gathered from the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty on Vote A of the Naval Estimates, the earliest possible opportunity will be taken to lay down suitable vessels to replace the liner losses which have been sustained, but the country's essential supplies must first be completely assured.
      Mr. HOUSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that America is building passenger and cargo liners, not merely cargo steamers such as the standard and fabricated ships are, and that there is great danger of our losing our maritime supremacy? In view of his statement with regard to the losses during July, I must ask him to look into it. He will find he is entirely mistaken.
      Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: With reference to the first part of the supplementary question, I can only say that that very important part has not been overlooked by us. With regard to the second part of the question, the hon. Gentleman will find, when the figures of losses are published, that the statement I have made is quite accurate.
      Mr. HOUSTON: I have the figures here.
      Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: I am sorry the hon. Gentleman should give currency to that statement, because it is not accurate.
      Mr. HOUSTON: It is accurate.
      Mr. OUTHWAITE: Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the fact that America is laying down 6,000,000 tons of shipping for after-war use; and are similar steps being taken in this country for the purpose of maintaining our supremacy?
      Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: So far as any addition to the tonnage of the Allies is concerned, we have reason to rejoice on that account.

      LOSS OF STEAMSHIP "LLANDOVERY CASTLE."
      Mr. MACMASTERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, when the steamship "Llandovery Castle," carrying

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      doctors and nurses, was torpedoed by a German submarine, the submarine commander demanded that the doctors who were passengers should be brought before him; whether, when seven doctors were so brought, he asserted that there were eight doctors; whether, in fact, eight doctors were to sail, but one was unable to do so owing to illness, and his name was not in the list of passengers; whether the commander's assertion suggests espionage at the port of shipment; and what means are taken to prevent such espionage?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: The statements set forth in the question are not accurate; and as regards the concluding portion, it would be unwise to give any reply—in the very interest which I am sure has prompted my hon. Friend to put it. I can assure him that the Admiralty are not neglecting their duty in this and all similar matters. I need not, perhaps, add that any suggestion of improper use of this hospital ship is entirely without foundation.
      Mr. MACMASTER: Did the right hon. Gentleman not see in the Press the statement made in the question?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: I did not see it in the Press; at any rate, the statement is incorrect.
      Sir FORTESCUE FLANNERY: Is it a fact that this vessel at the time she was lost was not carrying any German prisoners or wounded, and is it a fact that that was the first occasion for several times during her employment that she had no Germans on board?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot say that. I do not know. What I am concerned about is that any suggestion as to the improper use of this hospital ship is entirely without foundation.
      Mr. MACMASTER: I did not make that suggestion.
      Dr. MACNAMARA: No, but it is contained in the suggestion from the Press which is mentioned in the early part of the question.
      Sir F. FLANNERY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate the suggestion that when this vessel was torpedoed she had no Germans on board, and that when she had Germans on board she was not torpedoed?

      ACTIVITY (MEDITERRANEAN).
      Mr. PRINGLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can, without giving information to the enemy, make any statement regarding the increased activities of enemy submarines, not only round our coasts but in the Mediterranean?
      Dr. MACNAMARA: The Admiralty detects no marked increase in activity of submarines. There is no change in the situation since the last Return was issued to cause increased anxiety.

    GUN-LAYERS (PAY).
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that pensioned directors of gun-laying and other gun-layers whose eyesight is affected by lengthened service are now receiving 5s. per week less pay than previously, and less pay than juniors of their own rating; and if it is usual in any service under Government for Government servants, whose services are compulsorily retained, to lose pay because of being obliged to wear glasses?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have already explained to my hon. and gallant Friend on the 26th June that men whose qualifications to continue to earn non-substantive pay for specialised work have been impaired by reason of injuries atributable to the Service will receive a disability allowance equivalent to the loss of non-substantive pay which such men would otherwise have drawn. We have been in communication with the Treasury on the question of the extent to which this concession can be applied to those whose qualifications for earning non-substantive pay have been unpaired as the result of disease, in addition to injury. We have not yet reached agreement upon that point. But, in any case, I may as well tell my hon. and gallant Friend that his contention that a man should get this allowance because, for example, his eyesight has deteriorated with increased years and not as the result either of injury or disease attributable to the Service, cannot be supported.
    Sir B. FALLE: Is it usual for those servants who are compulsorily retained to lose pay because their eyesight is affected?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I am afraid that the fact that a man's sight becomes dim

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    through years will not qualify him for this disability allowance. I am afraid we are all common victims and sufferers in that respect.

    ROSYTH NAVAL BASE.
    Mr. PONSONBYasked the Secretary to the Admiralty what decision has been come to by the Committee on Production on the subject of the Rosyth workers' wages dispute?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The award of the Committee on Production on the claims made in respect of overtime pay, which is understood to be the subject of the dispute referred to in my hon. Friend's question, was as follows:
    "The present overtime conditions are based upon recommendations made to the Admiralty in March, 1915, by the Committee on Production when the Committee had before them claims for an advance of wages. On the subject of the claim for alteration in the existing overtime conditions, the consideration of which involves discussion in detail of the circumstances and conditions at the several dockyards and at the private yards, the Committee recommend that the claim should without delay form the subject of a conference between the representatives of the Admiralty and the representatives of the men, and that the Admiralty representatives should be given sufficient authority to enable them to conclude an agreement with the men's representatives, subject to ratification as a whole."
    The recommendation of the Committee is under consideration.

    ENGINEER OFFICERS (PAY).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can give any information as regards the pay, bonus, or otherwise of the engineer officer who, having attained the age for compulsory retirement, is kept on in the Service; if any improvement in his pay is proposed; and, if not, can he give the reason?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: An engineer officer in such circumstances continues under present Regulations to draw the full pay of his rank without bonus, and to count any additional time so served towards increase of retired pay within the maximum laid down. While no increase in the rates of full pay of these officers is contemplated, consideration is being given to the possibility of treating them as retired officers, and granting the usual bonus in addition to full pay. In that case, of course, the additional time served would not count for increase of retired pay.

    RUSSIA (BRITISH CONSULAR OFFICIALS).
    Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Consular Agent in Russia or any-British official, with any representative of any Allied State, has left Vologda; whether he or they have proceeded to Archangel; whether, if so, the reason for this can be stated; and whether, as stated a week ago, the political relations between this country and Russia remain unchanged?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Balfour): The British Commissioner who was recently sent to Russia left Vologda for Murmansk on the 24th of July, owing to his position having been rendered untenable by interference with his telegrams and other vexatious restrictions imposed by the local Bolshevik authorities. Several of the Allied representatives at Vologda, including the United States Ambassador, left at the same time, and proceeded viâ Archangel to Murmansk. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
    Mr. KING: In view of the developments of the Allies' Russian policy during the last week, can a statement be made either to-day or to-morrow in debate by the Foreign Secretary?
    Mr. BALFOUR: No, Sir; I doubt whether any formal statement on this isolated operation of the great world war would be of any advantage.
    Mr. KING: Has there not been a great and unexpected development on three points in Russia during the last week, and when a new development—in fact, a new front—is developed and taken up by the Allies, cannot we have some statement about it?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman safely tell us the present position of Mr. Lockhart?
    Mr. BALFOUR: Mr. Lockhart is still at Moscow.

    ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS (PROMOTION).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can give any date or information when the promotion of field officers, Royal Army

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    Medical Corps, Territorial and Volunteer, is likely to take place, or as to the retirement of such officers in default of such promotion?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I presume my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the promotions in accordance with the instructions issued recently regarding the introduction of a general seniority list for officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force. The promotion of the officers of the Territorial Force mentioned will take place as soon as possible after the receipt of the recommendations from the various theatres of war in which these officers are serving. Officers not selected for promotion will not be retired on that account.
    Sir B. FALLE: Does that apply to persons serving at home?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I presume so.

    CEYLON (COLONEL FELL'S VOLUNTEERS).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Under-Secretary for War the number of men sent from the Volunteers got together and commanded by Colonel It. A. Fell, Ceylon, since 1914?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: It is not desirable in the public interest to give this information.

    GENERAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
    Colonel YATEasked the Under-Secretary for War whether he can now-state what decision has been arrived at by the Army Council who have been considering the question of the promotion of officers of the General Reserve above tin-rank of major who have been reported on as fit, and recommended for promotion by the general officers under whom they have been serving, and who have been refused promotion in spite of the provisions of the Royal Warrant and of the Army Council Instructions under which they are eligible for it?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I can add nothing at present to my reply to my hon. and gallant Friend on Thursday last.
    Colonel YATE: Has the right hon. Gentleman any hope that this question will be settled in a reasonable time?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes, I think so.

    NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS (PAY).
    Colonel Sir CHARLES SEELYasked the Under-Secretary for War whether non-commissioned officers holding acting rank only have lately in some cases been deprived of their pay of that rank; if so, for what reason has this been done; and whether the former practice can be resumed?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Promotion at home is to acting rank only and on transfer to another unit or on proceeding overseas a soldier is liable to revert to a lower rank or to his substantive rank. On proceeding overseas, acting rank can be made substantive provided the soldier has held the acting rank for a period of six months and is recommended by his commanding officer.
    Sir C. SEELY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether men holding acting rank always receive the pay of that rank so long as they hold that rank, and that the moment they revert to their substantive rank they receive the pay of that rank?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes; so long as they hold acting rank they receive the pay of that rank, and the moment they leave acting rank they receive substantive pay.
    Mr. HOGGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the acting rank ceases when they become wounded?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Because, in the first place, they are no longer acting.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Will the Army Council consider the proposal I brought before them that it is extremely hard lines on men who are wounded and who enter a British hospital that they should be deprived of their rank and the pay of that rank?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The difficulty is that the Treasury would not sanction the pay of two men doing one man's work.
    Mr. ALDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman try to bring pressure upon the Treasury?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The hon. Member must put that question to the Financial Secretary.
    Mr. ROCH: Is the War Office favourable to granting this pay?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I cannot say that.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is he not the same man when he is wounded? When he is wounded you deprive him of his pay.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: When a man is wounded another man takes his place in acting rank.

    ARMY NURSING SERVICES.
    Major CHAPPLEasked whether nurses trained at the following hospitals are eligible for appointment to the Army Nursing Services: Glasgow Western Infirmary, Edinburgh Royal Infirmary, Guy's Hospital, University College Hospital, St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and the London Hospital; and, if so, what are the years of training in the wards of each hospital, respectively, as stated in the certificates presented by such nurses in evidence of qualification for appointment?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on the 18th July. All the hospitals mentioned in the question have more than 100 beds, and nurses trained therein are eligible for appointment to the Army Nursing Service.
    Major CHAPPLE: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that part of the question which asks what is the period of training in the wards of each of these hospitals as stated in the certificate presented by the nurses as evidence of qualification?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I can only speak for the War Office appointments. We do not appoint any nurse unless we are absolutely assured that she has had two years' training, and one years' service in the wards of a hospital of this kind.
    Major CHAPPLE: Is that one years service made to cover the farming out of nurses during the third year in which the nurse goes out and does private nursing
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    for the sake of pecuniary gain to the hospital, and is that the case with regard to any one of these hospitals?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: As I understand the one years' service must be service in the ward. I do not know what my hon. and gallant Friend means by farming out. I have nothing to do with that.

    ARTILLERY OFFICERS (APPOINTMENTS).
    Mr. WRIGHTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if, in view of the physical strain entailed by, and the importance of, the duties of a divisional commander, Royal Artillery, in warfare under present conditions, he will consider reducing the age limit of fifty-seven for retirement of an officer who has not been promoted to the rank of major-general to fifty or some other lower age, or devise some other means by which employment as a divisional commander, Royal Artillery, shall not be continued as a rule to an officer over the age of fifty?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: It is not considered necessary or desirable to take the action suggested by my hon. Friend. The Commander-in-Chief of an Expeditionary Force has unrestricted power to remove a commander, Royal Artillery, on account of age or for any other reason.
    Mr. WRIGHT: Does not a very large proportion of these full colonels of the regiments consist of men between the ages of fifty and fifty-seven, and has not the failure to give the regiment its share of promotion and appointments on divisional corps and Army staffs contributed to this block of the senior officers of the regiment?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I cannot answer definitely the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, but if I remember aright I did communicate with him by letter the other day and give him the figures as far as I could. So far as the latter part of the supplementary question is concerned, I cannot add anything to the answer which I have just given.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are any steps being taken by the War Office to remedy the great injustice and real scandal of officers of Artillery not being given their fair share of these appointments?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: That question does not arise out of the question on the Paper, but I think that I answered my hon. Friend the other day that, in the opinion of the authorities, Artillery officers were getting their fair share of these appointments.

    SUMMERDOWN CAMP, EASTBOURNE.
    Mr. MACMASTERasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state how far the Summerdown Camp at Eastbourne, where there are many wounded and legless soldiers, is from the sea, and also from the nearest shopping district of the town; whether there are any seats along the roadside leading from the camp to the sea or to the town; if any, how many, and at what distance is the nearest from the camp; and, if not, is it the town or the Government that is responsible for this lack of consideration for our wounded and disabled defenders?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The camp is a little over 1½ miles from the sea, and the distance to certain shops in the Old Town is about 400 yards, and to the best shopping centre in Eastbourne about one mile. There are several routes from the camp to the sea, and on some of these there are seats; in Gildridge Park there are some 100 seats, the nearest being about 500 yards from the camp. The route to the town is the same as several of those to the sea, and there is also a good bus service from the centre of the town to within about 100 yards of the camp. With reference to the statement in the first part of my hon. and learned Friend's question, there is only one legless soldier in the camp, and it is hoped to make arrangements to transfer him to a hospital nearer his home.

    ARMY ENTRANCE EXAMINATION.
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the War Office insist on the Civil Service Commissioners definitely refusing under the rules to accept lads of 17½ for the Army Entrance Examination on 5th November if they should not have attained that age on the 1st November and refusing to accept lads who attain that age one day or two later and before the examination takes place on 5th November; and if he will reconsider this ruling in view of the
    1338
    fact that we are at war and officers are wanted and that boys who cannot, owing to this rule, be examined on 5th November must wait eight months for the next examination?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I am afraid it is necessary to adhere rigidly to the rules laid down. I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that the examination is competitive, and any deviation from the Rules in favour of a candidate would be regarded as unfair to the other competitors.

    SOLDIERS' LEAVE (SALONIKA).
    Mr. BOWERMANasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a number of soldiers have been serving in Salonika for two years and upwards and have not been allowed home leave during that period; and whether arrangements can be made whereby immediate and reasonable home leave may be granted to such men?
    Mr. MACPHERSON:I would refer my right hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 24th July last to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford South.

    ADEN (MILITARY OPERATIONS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement respecting operations north of Aden; and whether he will give the name of the general officer commanding the Indo-British force there?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: There is no material change in the situation at Aden. The Turks remain in possession of Lahej, but ever since they were driven out of Sheikh 'Othman, in July, 1915, they have made no serious effort to resume an offensive. Military operations are confined to small outpost affairs and patrol encounters, while the enemy is continually harassed by our artillery and aeroplanes.
    Colonel YATE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the number of Turks that are there?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I am afraid that I cannot answer that. I will endeavour to obtain the information for my hon. and gallant Friend if he will put down a question.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Why is no answer given to the latter part of the question? Is the name of the commanding officer Sir John Stewart?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes—Major-General J. M. Stewart, C.B.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will my right hon. Friend inquire of Lieutenant-General Smuts what the career of this officer was in East Africa? May I have an answer to that?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Certainly.
    Colonel YATE: Is it not possible to drive out these Turks and get rid of them?

    GOVERNMENT CLERKS (WAR BONUS).
    Mr. NUGENTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a war bonus of 7s. to males and 4s. to females per week was granted to civilian subordinate clerks employed in a temporary capacity in Government offices, any included; whether he is aware that this bonus is paid to the clerks in every such office in Dublin except the Forage Department, Army Service Corps, Kilmainham; if he will state whether the civilian clerks in the office referred to are entitled to the war bonus; and, if so, when will it be paid and will the payment be retrospective?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): The bonus granted to civilian clerks (men and women) employed by the War Department in a temporary capacity is not a fixed sum, but depends on the date at which existing rates of wages have been fixed. The question as to the adequacy of the rates now being paid to the clerks in the Forage Department office at Kilmainham is being inquired into.

    SPECIAL RESERVE (OFFICERS).
    Major Sir E. COATESasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that paragraph II. of the Order by His Majesty, Regulation for Officers of the Special Reserve, states: Officers of the Special Reserve when called up for Army service at a time of national emergency shall be governed by the provisions contained in the several Royal Warrants,
    1340
    Regulations, and Orders for the time being governing the Regular Forces so far as such Regulations and Orders may respectively be applicable to them; and will he state why officers of the Special Reserve found temporarily unfit for military service whose disability has not been caused or aggravated by such service are now being demobilised without pay or being given the annual retaining fee, seeing that from the above it would appear that they should be eligible to be placed on half-pay as is done in the case of Regular officers similarly situated?
    Mr. FORSTER: This question is under consideration.

    YOUNG SOLDIERS.
    Mr. HARRISasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state the amount of training required from youths of eighteen before they are liable to be sent overseas?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 20th June last to my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Are we in the same position now as we were on the 20th of June?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I think not.
    Mr. ROCH: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the Report of the medical officer in regard to these boys?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes.
    Mr. HOGGE: Are boys of that age likely to be restored to the position in which they were before the crisis which necessitated their being sent away?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I would remind the House that it was with very great regret that the War Cabinet decided that those boys, not of eighteen but of eighteen and a half, should be sent abroad. As I stated in answer to a supplementary question the other day, the Army Council and the War Cabinet would be glad to consider the possibility of coming back to the old arrangement.

    OVERSEAS SERVICE (OFFICERS)
    Colonel ROYDSasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will give

    1341
    the number of commissioned officers of whatever rank now employed at the War Office who have not seen overseas service in the present War, and also the number of commissioned officers of rank of colonel and under now employed at the War Office who have been attached to or employed on the Staff for a period of three years and over during the present War?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I regret that this information is not available. It would take a considerable time to prepare, and would throw an undue amount of labour upon an already overworked Department. In these circumstances I trust my hon. and gallant Friend will not press for the Return.

    PRISONERS OF WAR.

      RELIGIOUS EMBLEMS.
      Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the indignation and resentment felt by Irish Roman Catholic prisoners of war in German and other enemy hands, their parents, and other near relatives, at the action of the English Censor in refusing to allow religious emblems sent to these prisoners to afford them consolation in their captivity to be forwarded to them; and whether the Government have considered the prejudicial effect such conduct is likely to produce on enlistment, and will give immediate directions that this irritating practice should be terminated?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: I regret that this Regulation cannot be relaxed, but any application for permission to send such emblems will be carefully considered if made direct to the Chief Postal Censor.
      Mr. MacNEILL: Why cannot it be relaxed? Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that it is an insult to these men. If he does not know that, let him ask the right hon. Gentleman, who is a Roman Catholic, who is sitting beside him on the Treasury Bench.
      Mr. MACPHERSON: There is no insult intended at all in this Regulation.
      Mr. MacNEILL: Is it not part of the policy of War Office malignity described by the Prime Minister to refuse to allow these poor people the consolation of religious emblems?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: No; the question of malignity or insult does not come into the matter. It is a strict rule, passed in the interests of this country by a Censor who knows his duty. There are equally stringent Regulations on people in this country.
      Sir F. FLANNERY: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the reason why these emblems may not pass? Is there a sound reason for it?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: There is a very sound reason. It is too long to explain.
      Mr. MacNEILL: Is not this part and parcel of War Office insult and malignity—a great scandal?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: The question of malignity or insult does not enter into the question at all. It is purely a strict rule passed in the interest of this country by the Censor, who knows his duty.
      Sir R. ADKINS: Could not the right hon. Gentleman, in reply to these numerous questions, indicate in brief the general character of the reasons?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: The House will realise that it is difficult to do that within the limits of a question and answer. I am not afraid to answer. All that I demand is that I should be asked in a proper way.
      Mr. DEVLIN: If I ask the right hon. Gentleman in a proper way, will he do it?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: Certainly; tomorrow.
      Mr. CHANCELLOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman not circulate in the Press an explanation which will reach everybody?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: I shall be ready to give any information at my disposal to any Member of the House.
      Mr. MacNEILL: At once?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: At once.

      EXCHANGE WITH TURKEY.
      Mr. STEWARTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it would be possible for our military authorities in Palestine to get into communication direct with the Turkish military authorities at Damascus to endeavour to arrange for the exchange of prisoners overland between Damascus and Jerusalem,

      1343
      in view of the delay in carrying out the Berne Agreement and the procedure entailed by negotiating through a neutral country and through neutral agents?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: This proposal has already been referred to General Allenby, and he has replied that it is impossible.
      Mr. STEWART: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when the answer was given?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: It was given in January of this year.

    ACTING ARMY PAYMASTERS.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the Army Council are still adhering to their agreement to give one month's notice in writing should the services of an acting paymaster be required for active service; and, if his services should be so required, will he consider the possibility of giving the acting paymaster an opportunity of securing a commission through the Officers' Training Corps?
    Mr. FORSTER: The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the number of temporary commissions, with the rank of captain, given in the Army Pay Department number only two a year out of an average of twenty-five acting paymasters in a pay office, and can he see his way to increase this proportion, seeing that the work done by these officers is the same as if not more responsible than that performed by the regular staff of the Army Pay Department before the War, and that the temporary paymasters are largely responsible for the good working of the pay offices; will he state why seniority of service in the Pay Department is not taken into account towards promotion as is customary in other branches of the service; and, seeing that the selection is made on the regimental paymaster's recommendation to the Inspector of Pay Offices, and that this procedure lends itself to favouritism, will he consider some other form of making the selection?
    Mr. FORSTER: The number of temporary commissions granted is the result
    1344
    of careful consideration, and is regulated by the requirements of the Service, and not by the claims of individuals. Promotion in the Department is mainly by selection for merit, but my hon. Friend is misinformed if he thinks that seniority is altogether ignored. Selection always gives rise to imputations of favouritism, but it is not the case that promotions are determined by the Inspector of Pay Offices. They are very carefully considered in the War Office.
    Sir. C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that dissatisfaction is felt by acting paymasters at the salary they are now receiving, which is £250 a year plus a war bonus of 12½ per cent.; that, since the rates of pay were fixed, the cost of living has gone up considerably, and that the value of the sovereign has now brought the pay of the acting paymaster down to nearly half of its original value; that paymasters have to pay the full rates of civilian Income Tax, though that tax is not paid through Army funds and thereby not taxed by the Army rates; and in view of these facts, will he consider the possibility of raising the pay of acting paymasters?
    Mr. FORSTER: A number of specially selected acting paymasters have been advanced to a rate of £300 a year, and others have been granted temporary commissions, with the emoluments of Regular officers of the Department. As regards increased cost of living and incidence of Income Tax, these acting paymasters have been treated in exactly the same way as other civilians employed in the public service.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    General McCALMONTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he has had an opportunity of investigating any specific case where it has been alleged that a deduction has been made from the accounts of a deceased soldier for the cost of the blanket in which he was buried; and whether he is prepared to make any statement on the subject?
    Mr. FORSTER: Yes, Sir; a case of this nature in Scotland was brought to my notice, and sufficient details were given to

    1345
    enable the facts to be ascertained. As a result of the investigation, I am able to give an emphatic denial to the allegation. It appears that a mother was in receipt of dependent's allowance in respect of her two soldier sons, and that four weeks after the death of one of the sons the amount of the allowance which she drew for two weeks together was some 5s. less than she expected to receive. She was unable to account for this, and another woman who was in the post-office at the same time suggested that it was for the cost of the winding-sheet in which her son was buried. In this way considerable publicity was given to the story. The facts are that owing to a mistake the mother had received a slight overpayment of the allowance for several weeks, and the error was adjusted by deducting the excess from the two weeks' allowance.
    I am much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for giving me the opportunity of repeating the assurance, which I have given several times before, that no charge is ever made for the blanket in which a soldier is buried.
    Sir B. FALLEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that H. J. Kennedy, 11, Pretoria Road, Portsmouth, lost his foot in a lift accident at the Ordnance Gun Wharf, Portsmouth, twenty-one months ago, and that his weekly compensation was stopped 27th July, that he has no means of support, and that the artificial leg provided has been altered three times and is of little use; and if he will have the final compensation settled, or if Kennedy will have the option of remaining in the gun wharf?
    Mr. FORSTER: The stoppage of this man's compensation was the result of a clerical error, and payment has been resumed. Every effort is being made to make the artificial limb comfortable and useful. The question of final settlement of compensation is under consideration. His retention at the gun wharf must depend upon the existence of suitable work—a question which cannot be determined until the man has accustomed himself to the use of an artificial limb.
    Colonel YATEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, considering that an officer who is in receipt of retired pay granted on account of disability owing to service in His Majesty's
    1346
    Forces and who accepts any Civil employment under a public Department is liable, under No. 4 of the Rules made under Section 6 of the Superannuation Act of 1887, to a deduction of not less than 10 per cent. from the salary of his Civil employment, provided that his salary and retired pay together exceed £400 per annum; and, considering that officers in receipt of wound pensions are specially exempted from this deduction, the Army Council will now take the necessary steps to obtain the alteration of the Rules under Section 6 of the Act of 1887, by the addition of the words "and disability" after the word "wounds," at the end of Section 1 (a), and thus to free officers disabled in the War from the penalty now imposed upon them?
    Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave on this subject on the 1st instant. As I then explained, the rules referred to cannot be amended except by Statute.
    Colonel YATE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question was put to the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and that on account of his reply it is now put to the hon. Gentleman, from whom I get a repetition of the answer; and is there any hope of getting legislation on this matter?
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state on what ground the War Cabinet came to the decision that while the weekly rate of separation allowance for one motherless child should be increased by 3s. per week, the increase for the second and other motherless children in the same home should only be increased by 1s. per week per child?
    Mr. FORSTER: From the evidence placed before the Government it was recognised that 10s. a week was now necessary to maintain a motherless child in a home; but where more than one child was maintained, a less amount was required.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it not a fact that the previous difference was 1s., whereas the present difference is 3s.?
    Mr. FORSTER: In cases of necessity the Grant can be supplemented by the Special Grants Committee.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to make that more widely known in the country? It is not at present widely known.
    Mr. FORSTER: I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions in regard to that.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the dependants' allowances of Class W Reserve men who are recalled to service are calculated on the basis of the man's earnings prior to his original enlistment instead of on the basis of the man's earnings prior to recall; and, if so, if he will consider the possibility of basing the calculation upon any higher earnings during the later period?
    Mr. FORSTER: These men remain soldiers throughout, serving on their original enlistment. They are, therefore, correctly assessed upon their contribution before enlistment. The suggestion that the Regulations should be altered to admit of a choice between contributions before enlistment and contributions while a Reservist has been carefully considered; but it is held that such preferential treatment, as compared with those who remain with the Colours, would not be justified.
    Mr. HOGGE: What right have the War Office to deny to the dependants of that man the same right to separation allowance as to those of a man who has not been in Class W, and who enjoys the benefit of high wages—how can they justify that?
    Mr. FORSTER: I think very much for the same reason that you do not give to the soldier who is fighting for his country the same rate of pay.
    Mr. PENNEFATHER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this method of assessment makes a difference of over 5s. a week to the dependants in some cases?
    Mr. FORSTER: It may in some cases, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that here again the powers of the Special Grants Committee are designed to enable them to meet cases of hardship.
    Mr. HOGGE: Never exercised!
    Sir RYLAND ADKINS: But ought it to be left to the Special Grants Committee?
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the War
    1348
    Cabinet have limited the grant of 5s. per week to the parents of apprentices who have attained twenty-one years of age, thus excluding the parents of sons whose apprenticeship has either been completed at an earlier age or would have been completed but for military service?
    Mr. FORSTER: This question was dealt with in the recent Debates on the subject, and I fear I can add nothing to them.
    Mr. PENNEFATHER: I am not aware that any definite decision was given in the recent Debate What was the decision?
    Mr. FORSTER: The decision, I think, is stated in the hon. Gentleman's question.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is the decision of the Government this, that they are prepared to pay a flat rate of 5s. to the mothers of apprentices of twenty-one, and that they are prepared to pay nothing to the mothers of apprentices who are nineteen and who are being killed to-day in the fighting line?
    Mr. FORSTER: As I said in the Debate, we had to consider whether we would proceed by way of discretionary allowances which could be made applicable to each individual case or by means of a flat rate, and it was considered desirable to proceed by means of a flat rate.
    Mr. HOGGE: Why twenty-one?
    Mr. FORSTER: I have answered that. We quite recognise that a flat rate cannot avoid all cases of hardship.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERrose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We have had two Debates on this question.
    Mr. HOGGE: We will raise it to-night.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that boys whose patriotic impulses led them to procure enlistment by overstating their age, and who have been discharged as under age and subsequently re-enlisted at the age of eighteen, are penalised by having their dependants' allowances calculated on the basis of boys' wages prior to the original enlistment instead of on the basis of young men's wages at the time that they became eighteen and were re-enlisted; and whether he proposes to take any action in these cases?
    Mr. FORSTER: Under the Regulations, all these claims of boys discharged and

    1349
    subsequently re-enlisted are specially considered by the Appeals Committee presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras (North). I do not think these difficult cases could be in better hands.
    Mr. PENNEFATHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that, under Regulation 7 (1) of the Special Grants Committee, by which local committees are empowered to make allowances to soldiers' wives to meet contractual obligations for the purposes of assessment in the case of voluntarily enlisted men, the prevailing wage rate on 1st January, 1916, may be taken, but that, in the case of men coming under the Military Service Act at later periods, the wages prior to enlistment form the basis of assessment, and that, as wages have risen largely since 1st January, 1916, this results in those who volunteered being placed at a pecuniary disadvantage compared to those who were called up later; and if he will consider the advisability of altering the date from 1st January, 1916, to 1st January, 1918?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Hodge): I am aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member, and am considering the advisability of making the alteration he suggests.
    Mr. HOGGE: How long are you going to consider it? We have had four years of war now.

    INFANTRY EQUIPMENT.
    Captain SHEEHANasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any claim has been received from the Mills' Equipment Company for payment of royalty in respect of the pattern 1914 Infantry equipment; if so, on what grounds was their claim based; whether their claim was admitted by the War Office, the date on which it was admitted, and the amount per set paid as royalty; whether, as a matter of fact, any of the 1914 equipment was manufactured by the Mills' Company, and, if so, the number of sets; and what is the total amount to present date paid to this company in the way of royalties in respect of the 1914 Infantry equipment and pattern 1908 web equipment, respectively?
    Mr. FORSTER: I am not yet in a position to give this information, which involves much research.
    Captain SHEEHAN: Is it not the fact that this question was put over a year ago, and the right hon. Gentleman did not reply as to whether a royalty was paid?
    Mr. FORSTER: There are many items of information for which the hon. Gentleman has asked and as to which I have not been able to get the replies in time.
    Captain SHEEHANasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the pattern 1908 web equipment described in patent No. 28812 was actually invented by Major (now Colonel) Burrowes; whether this officer handed over his design to the War Office prior to patent No. 28812 being granted to the persons named therein; can he state the circumstances under which the War Office allowed a public company to acquire a right in a War Office invention; was Major Burrowes subsequently allowed to enter into private relations with the Mills' Equipment Company and what were these relations, whether patent No. 28812 of 1906 is void by reason of the fact that it does not give the name of Major Burrowes as the real, true, and first inventor of the equipment described in that patent; whether the fact that this patent was so void was known to the War Office officials concerned at the time that the question of payment of royalty to the Mills' Equipment Company on the pattern 1908 equipment and the pattern 1914 equipment was considered by them; and, if so, why was not the claim of the Mills' Company contested by them?
    Mr. FORSTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply on the 4th July, 1916, to the hon. Member for East Leeds, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Captain SHEEHAN: Having already seen the reply, may I state that it does not answer any of the specific questions which I have raised here, and can the right hon. Gentleman state the conditions under which the. War Office allows a public company to acquire the rights of a War Office invention? That was not answered.
    Mr. FORSTER: I think it was.
    Captain SHEEHAN: Having regard to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to the subject in the course of this afternoon's Debate.
    Captain SHEEHANasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether a claim for reward in connection with the invention of the pattern 1914 Infantry equipment was submitted, through the usual channels, to the War Office by Major C. Honey, Army Ordnance Department, in August, 1915; whether Major Honey's claim was investigated and considered side by side with the claim for royalty put forward by the Mills' Equipment Company by the War Office patent expert and the Department of the War Office and Ministry of Munitions Inventions Department concerned; on what date was Major Honey informed that his claim for reward could not be admitted; and can he explain why Major (now Colonel) Burrowes was allowed to make his own peculiar arrangements with a manufacturing company, the Mills' Equipment Company, whilst Major Honey's claim for an improved and distinctive and adopted invention has been summarily refused and no reward whatever given to him?
    Mr. FORSTER: A claim for reward was made by Major Honey in August, 1915, but was held over pending the settlement of a claim for royalties by the Mills' Equipment Company. The Department were advised that the 1914 pattern Infantry equipment infringed the company's patent of 1906, and Major Honey's claim was, therefore, not considered valid.

    ENEMY BARBARITIES.
    Colonel Sir F. HALLasked the Prime Minister which Department of the Government is responsible for keeping the records of actions committed by enemy Governments and their agents contrary to international law, including, for instance, such acts of barbarity as the murder of Nurse Cavell and Captain Fryatt, for which the Government, by their own undertaking, or that of their predecessors, are pledged to exact punishment when the proper time arrives; if he will state what steps are being taken to keep an accurate and complete record of these crimes as they are committed from time to time; and, if the existing staff of the Department concerned is inadequate for the purpose, whether he will give instructions for supplementing same, in view of the ample justification for any expenditure incurred thereby?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on the 16th July, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Sir F. HALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the previous reply no notification is given as to what steps are being taken to keep an accurate and complete record of these atrocities from time to time?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I think my hon. and gallant Friend is mistaken. The reply gave that and nothing else.
    Mr. S. MacNEILL: Could not the right hon. Gentleman supplement the staff of the Ministry of Information?

    AFFORESTATION.
    Mr. MOUNTasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that several meetings have been held lately in various parts of the country urging upon the Government the importance of the immediate preparation for afforestation after the War and the advisability of an early decision on the Report of the Forestry Sub-committee of the Reconstruction Committee; and whether he can state what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take to encourage or secure the replanting of the large area of woodland which has been cut down during the last few years?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. This question is being reviewed by a small Cabinet Committee, and a decision will be taken immediately.

    STRANGERS' GALLERIES (ADMISSION OF WOMEN).
    Colonel Sir JAMES CRAIGasked the Prime Minister whether he will give the House an opportunity of considering the question of opening the available galleries of this House to women and men impartially?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If there is a general desire, I should be glad to arrange an opportunity for this discussion after the Recess.

    AMERICAN TRADE.
    Mr. PRINGLEasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the British flag has disappeared in the trade between North and South America, and that six vessels under the American flag sailed from New York for South American ports between 26th June and 15th July last, in addition to several neutral vessels loaded by American firms; and will he state what arrangements are being made for the reappearance of the British flag in this trade and the protection of British interests, which created and conducted this trade until the outbreak of war, when British vessels were withdrawn by the British Government from this trade for the service of the Allies and the prosecution of the War?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers given to him on 20th June, and to the hon. Member for the West Toxteth Division of Liverpool on the 14th May, in reply to similar questions. The facts are generally as indicated in the question regarding the withdrawal of British vessels from this trade for direct war services. As already stated, the Shipping Controller is anxious to meet the situation resulting from the withdrawal of tonnage referred to, so far as that is possible without reducing the transport of war supplies. Steps have accordingly been taken to allocate between the shipowners concerned certain neutral vessels which, not being available for war zone trading, can usefully be employed in the trade between North and South America.
    Mr. HOUSTON: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the British flag has disappeared from this trade, and that the employment of neutral ships in that trade would not benefit the British flag?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: The Shipping Controller is acquainted with the facts, and recognises the importance of the question. He has done the best he can to meet the very difficult situation, but I do not think that my hon. Friend would suggest that we should withdraw vessels from direct war service to fill this gap, lamentable as it may be?
    Mr. HOUSTON: I would suggest that American ships should be withdrawn from this service and put into the Allied trade?
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it not a trifle incongruous that while we are lending ships to America for all purposes, America, with new interests, should be taking the place of British services between North and South America, and does he not see that it is reasonable to ask that, while we are giving all that to America, the Americans should not be collaring British trade?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: We are not lending ships to America. We are lending ships to the common cause of the Allies, and because we are employing ships as we are doing, we are able to bring 10,000 American soldiers to Europe every day.
    Mr. MACMASTER: May I ask if the ships referred to here are not ships that are engaged in coastwise trade north and south, and that their disappearance in that respect has no particular bearing upon the question?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: The fact is that these ships were engaged in trading between North and South America. In order to make them more useful to the Allied cause, we have caused them to trade to Europe.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Cannot the Government see that British and American ships are used in equal proportions for the general cause of the Allies, and not for particular trades?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: My hon. Friend can rely upon it that the Shipping Controller is fully seized of the facts, and is doing his best in order to remove any grievance.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Can we be assured that the War Cabinet shares the views of the Shipping Controller on this matter?
    Sir L. CHIOZZA MONEY: Most certainly. The War Cabinet is acquainted with those views, and shares them.

    MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.
    Mr. KINGasked the Prime Minister whether the position and work of the Right Hon. C. F. G. Masterman in the Ministry of Information has now been definitely determined?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The Right Hon. C. F. G. Masterman has been appointed the Director of the Literature Department of the Ministry of Information.

    IMPORTS AND EXPORTS BILL.
    Mr. STEWARTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the desirability that our enemies should clearly understand what the economic policy of this country is, it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Imports and Exports Bill immediately after the Recess?
    Sir C. NICHOLSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state when he intends to re-introduce the Imports and Exports (Temporary Control) Bill; and whether the policy of the Government with regard to this subject remains the same as that indicated in the Bill introduced into this House in 1917?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: As I have already explained, it was thought necessary before proceeding with this Bill that a general statement on the economic policy should be made, and I much regret that it was not possible to make this statement before the Recess. It is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Bill, the great importance of which we recognise, as soon as possible after the House resumes.

    INCOME TAX.

      ALLEGED OPPRESSIVE ASSESSMENT.
      Mr. CURRIEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received numerous complaints and petitions to the effect that his undertaking that trading concerns investing available funds in Government stocks would in no way be penalised by surveyors of taxes has been imperfectly carried out; whether, in response to his request, cases of alleged oppressive assessment have been specially investigated; and, if so, with what result?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I have received a few representations relating to this matter. Each case has been investigated and considered on its merits, but they have been found to afford no ground for apprehension that in the administration of the Statute effect is not being duly given to my undertaking.

      EVASION OF HIGHER LEVEL.
      Major CHAPPLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to advice on relief from Income Tax, in which it is
      1356
      stated that where the income overtops a point where the tax goes up a taxpayer can make a present of a few inconvenient pounds and pay tax on the lower level; and if he will state what is the largest amount a taxpayer may save in taxation by this manœuvre?
      Mr. BONAR LAW: I have not seen the advice to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, but it is not the case that a taxpayer can reduce his Income Tax liability in any year imply by making a present.

    EXCESS PROFITS DUTY (REPAYMENTS).
    Mr. CURRIEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that £9,000,000 was repaid to payers of Excess Profits Duty entitled to equalising repayments in terms of the Finance Acts in respect of the last year for which figures are available, be can say whether such repayments are now being made on a much larger scale so as to affect materially the yield of the duty?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: In estimating the yield of Excess Profits Duty for the current year allowance was made for sums to be repaid or set off under the provision to which my hon. Friend refers. The proportion borne by these amounts to the total assessments shows no marked increase.

    SIR RODERICK JONES.
    Mr. KINGasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state on what date did Sir Roderick Jones cease to act as managing director of Reuters, Limited, in order to work at the Ministry of Information; whether he receives any remuneration at the Ministry; and whether he has agreed to drop his management of Reuters for the duration of the War?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Sir Roderick Jones joined the Ministry of Information upon its formation in March last, and from that date the managing directorship of Reuters, Limited, was placed in commission at Reuters. He devotes the whole of his time to the Ministry, and will continue to do so, so long as he retains his appointment. He receives no remuneration.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Does he receive a remuneration from Reuters?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I do not know.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Has the Government not inquired into that?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Why should it?
    Mr. S. MacNEILL: Is it not a fact that this firm, out of which the managing director has gone straight into the Ministry of Information, have, since he became an official in the Ministry of Information, obtained no less a sum by their cables than £164,000?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I do not think that is the case. I think that figure referred to sums which were paid before, but, as my hon. Friend the financial Secretary pointed out, Sir Roderick Jones has no say whatever in the payments made to this firm, which are given on the advice of the three gentlemen mentioned by my hon. Friend, one of whom was Colonel Buchan, another was Mr. McMillan, a Scottish counsel, and the third a Member of this House, Major Baker.
    Mr. S. MacNEILL: Where does public interest end and private interest begin?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I quite recognise that this is a very important matter, and I am prepared to recognise that, but at present, in time of war, if we are to get expert advice in this or in any other Department, it is almost impossible to get it except in the case of men who in some way or other have interests which may be said to have some connection with the subject.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Does not the Government recognise that it is better that Sir Roderick Jones should be a salaried official of the Government than a salaried servant of Reuters?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The hon. Member does not really understand. It is not only in that case, but in hundreds of others, the men who are giving service to the Government are giving it on conditions which no salary could get. There are many whom no salary could tempt to get their services.
    Other HON. MEMBERSrose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would point out that there are more than 100 questions on the Paper.

    NAVY AND ARMY CANTEEN BOARD.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what profits have been made by the Navy and Army Canteen Board; and for what objects these profits are allotted?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: The balance-sheet for the year ending 31st December, 1917, is still in the hands of the auditors. Any surplus remaining over from the board's operations will be disposed of by the Admiralty and the Army and Air Councils for the benefit of the sailors, soldiers, and airmen and their dependants.
    Sir F. HALL: Will that be for the benefit of the existing folk, or is it going to be handed down to posterity?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Both.
    Sir F. HALL: That is what I am afraid of.

    LEATHER (WAR OFFICE RELEASES).
    Sir W. ESSEXasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office how much gross profit was made upon leather released from the War Office holding for civilian foot and leg ware; and what disposition was made of that gross profit?
    Mr. FORSTER: I am making further inquiries, and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

    FOOD SUPPLIES.

      GRASS LAND (PLOUGHING).
      Mr. WRIGHTasked the President of the Board of Agriculture, in view of the fact that the Board have informed agricultural executive committees that any large new ploughing programme is impracticable till the labour position is substantially or permanently improved, or until a fresh emergency arises, and instructions have been issued that no fresh orders to plough up grass land should be served before the 21st of August, whether it is his intention to issue, after the 21st of August, during the adjournment of this House, orders under the Defence of the Realm Regulations to the committees to carry out fresh ploughing programmes?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Richard Winfrey): The question of the instructions to be issued to the committees

      1359
      as to the food production for next year is under consideration, but any orders to plough up grass land will in future be subject to appeal and reference to arbitration, in accordance with the Corn. Production (Amendment) Bill, and will be conditional on an adequate supply of skilled labour for cultivation as well as ploughing.

    MUNITIONS.

      AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURE.
      Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Munitions if he is in a position to state whether full inquiry has been made into the action of an employé at a London aeroplane works who was dismissed by his employers for ceasing work during a busy period of the day for the purpose of holding a meeting, in consequence of which the Government has taken over the factory in question; and what was the result of the inquiry?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: The result of the inquiry was given in an official announcement to the Press on 22nd July. I am sending a copy of the announcement to my hon. and gallant Friend.
      Sir F. HALL: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I put this question down last week, and he asked me to repeat it today; and is it not rather extraordinary that a reply should be forthcoming that an intimation has previously been given to the Press?

      DISCHARGED SAILORS AND SOLDIERS (EMPLOYMENT).
      Captain BARNETTasked the Minister of Munitions how many friendly aliens of military age are now employed in munition works and Government Departments; and whether there is any reason why these men should not be gradually replaced by discharged sailors and soldiers?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: I regret that I have no information as to the number of friendly aliens of military age holding permits to work on munitions. In view of the large unsatisfied demand for labour for munitions work, there is no reason to think that their retention is excluding discharged soldiers or sailors from employment. I have no information as to the number of friendly aliens employed in
      1360
      other Government Departments, but the number employed in the Ministry of Munitions is twelve, of whom ten are American and two Belgian.
      Captain BARNETTasked the Minister of Munitions whether he will consider the desirability of requiring all controlled establishments to employ at least 10 per cent. of discharged sailors and soldiers; and whether he will consult the trades unions concerned as to the best means of providing for the instruction of these men so that those showing the necessary capacity and intelligence may qualify as skilled workmen?
      Mr. KELLAWAY: In conjunction with the Ministries of Labour and Pensions, I am doing everything possible to secure employment on munitions work for suitable discharged soldiers and sailors. The Ministry of Munitions has impressed upon controlled establishments the necessity of employing such men to the utmost possible extent. Similar directions have been issued to the heads of our own establishments. My hon. and gallant Friend will, however, recognise that conditions in the various branches of the munitions industry vary considerably, and it is not considered practicable to lay down a definite percentage as proposed. The Ministry of Munitions is informed that the Ministries of Pensions and Labour have for some time past been in consultation with the representatives of trade unions and employers on the subject of training discharged men to qualify as skilled workmen.
      There are continuously under training in Ministry of Munitions schools some 900 discharged sailors and soldiers, and the number is increasing. Owing to the rapid development of this work we are setting up a special section in the Labour Supply Department to deal with questions arising out of the employment of discharged sailors and soldiers on munitions, and to ensure as far as possible that due consideration shall be given to the claims of those men to employment in munition factories.

    HOUSING (IRELAND).
    Mr. BRADY (by Private Notice)asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the statement made yesterday by the President of the Local Government Board on the housing question to a deputation of

    1361
    British Members of Parliament, and whether he is now in a position to publish the Cowan Report and generally to state his policy regarding Irish housing?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Shortt): I regret that I have not been able to get more information, but, in reply to the question, I may say the Report is going to be submitted to the Dublin Corporation, and until they have received it and considered it, I do not propose to show it to anyone else; but I can assure the hon. Member that is one of the subjects I intend to go into thoroughly during the Recess.
    Sir E. CARSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman also submit it to the Belfast Corporation?
    Mr. SHORTT: It deals with Dublin.
    Mr. JOYCE: Why not submit it to all the corporations in Ireland—there are just as important places?
    Mr. SHORTT: The Report deals only with the question of Dublin.
    Mr. FIELD: Why should not the citizens of Dublin be furnished with a copy of the Report as well as the corporation?
    Captain SHEEHAN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can state whether the whole question of re-housing in Ireland after the War is going to be taken into consideration? I have been pressing this question for six months.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must confine himself to putting a question.
    Captain SHEEHAN: This is the last, opportunity we have.
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is not the opportunity for speaking, only for interrogating.
    Captain SHEEHAN: What I want to know is this. When is the whole question of housing to be dealt with? It has been considered in England. Is Ireland going to be dealt with?
    Mr. SHORTT: That is what I have said. I am going to consider the whole question during the Recess.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is it not going to be left to the Home Rule Parliament?
    Mr. SHORTT: I hope so.

    SOLDIERS' LEAVE.
    Sir C. HOBHOUSE (by Private Notice)asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can give the House any information as to the arrangements for leave he is making for increasing the number on leave of soldiers who have served or are serving in France, and also on the Eastern Front; and particularly whether anything can be done with regard to officers and men who have been serving in German East Africa and have been transferred from there to Palestine?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: This question has received, and is receiving, the most serious and sympathetic consideration of the Government. Arrangements will be made at once to give leave to 6,000 a day from France—about 180,000 a month—about 1,000 a week from Italy, and 1,700 a week from Salonika. I am sorry I am not in a position to say what we can do with regard to India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, or East Africa, but I hope in the course of a week to be able to make a public announcement.
    Mr. WRIGHT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any further arrangement can be made for the leave of officers and men in Salonika, especially those who have been in hospital?
    Sir C. HOBHOUSE: Am I to understand that a very considerable increase in the numbers will be obtained by the figures the right hon. Gentleman has just announced?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: A very great increase, indeed.

    IMPERIAL CONFERENCE.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what Dominions and Colonies are represented at this year's Imperial Conference; and if he will state what is the population of each Dominion and Colony represented?
    Mr. HEWINS: The self-governing Dominions represented at this year's

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    Imperial War Conference and their approximate white population at the Census of 1911 are as follows:

    Canada

    7,200,000

    Australia

    4,500,000

    New Zealand

    1,100,000

    Union of South Africa

    1,300,000

    Newfoundland

    250,000

    The total population of the Union is about 6,500,000.

    PRIVATE BUSINESS.
    Commercial Gas Bill,
    Portsea Island Gas Light Bill,
    Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table.

    NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
    Eighth Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 111.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

    PERIOD OF ADJOURNMENT.
    Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: May I ask the Leader of the House what Orders it is proposed to take to-day; if he can state when it is proposed the House should reassemble after the Recess; and what business will be taken in the first week after reassembling?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: In regard to to-day, in addition to the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill, we propose to take only the Second Order on the Paper [Burghs Gas Supply (Scotland) Amendment Bill—Committee]. It is intended to move to-morrow that the House shall adjourn till Tuesday, 15th of October. The business for that week I shall announce to-morrow.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is it intended that we shall ever meet again? May I press for an answer—will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that we shall ever meet again?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I cannot give an undertaking that we shall all meet again.
    Ordered, That Government Business, be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour although opposed.—[Mr. Sonar Law.]
    Resolved, "That this House do meet To-morrow, at Twelve of the clock."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]

  SCHOOL TEACHERS [SUPERANNUATION].
  Committee to consider of making provision, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, for the grant of Superannuation Allowances and Gratuities to Teachers and of Gratuities to legal personal representatives of deceased Teachers, of charging deferred annuities under the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1898 to 1912, on the Consolidated Fund, and of otherwise amending these Acts—(King's Recommendation signified)—To-morrow.—[Mr. Herbert Fisher.]

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 3), BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

  WAR SITUATION.

    PRIME MINISTER'S REVIEW.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Lloyd George): Mr. Speaker,—Four years ago the British Empire decided to throw the whole weight of its might into the greatest War which the world has ever witnessed. It did so not because British soil was invaded or even threatened with invasion, but because of an outrage upon international right. Had it not been for that decision, the whole course of the War would have been different. The history of the world for generations to come would have followed a different course. I do not wish in the least to exaggerate the part which the British Empire has taken in that conflict. But a mere glance at the events of the last four years will show how great and how decisive its influence has been upon the turn of those events. When the War began we had the most powerful Navy in the world. It was as powerful as the three next Navies of the world, and, when unity of command is taken into account, it was more powerful than the three next Navies. We had, however, the smallest Army of any great Power in Europe. We had a compact with France that if she were wantonly attacked, the United Kingdom would go to her support.
    Mr. HOGGE: We did not know that!
    The PRIME MINISTER: If France were wantonly attacked.
    An HON. MEMBER: That is news.
    The PRIME MINISTER: There was no compact as to what force we should bring into the arena. In any discussion that ever took place, either in this country or outside, there was no idea that we should ever be able to employ a greater force than six divisions. Whenever there was a discussion in this House about the British Expeditionary Force the maximum was a six-division limit. Whatever arrangement was come to, I think history will show we have more than kept faith.

    1413
    4.0 P.M.
    I should like to say one word about the part which the Navy has taken in redeeming that pledge. I do so because there is a real danger in the more minutely and constantly-described events on land to overlook the part which the British Navy is playing in this conflict. There are two great struggles being carried on—one on the land and one on the sea. One is carried on almost before our eyes. The incidents are pictured from day to day by men who are detailed specially for the purpose of describing them. Every turn in events is portrayed. Take the other struggle. Events there take place in the vast wilderness of the sea, over hundreds of thousands of square miles, with no one to witness them or to describe them except those who take part in the grim struggle. That struggle has been prolonged for four years without a break. No darkness arrests it. No weather, no winter stops it! The Navy never goes into winter quarters! The fighting is going on without ceasing, and I do not think many realise that that is the decisive struggle of the War. Upon its issue the fate of the War depends. If the Allies are defeated there, the War would be over; until they are beaten there, Germany can never triumph. And in the main this momentous deciding struggle is carried on by the British Navy. There is a disposition even here to take the British Navy for granted, exactly as you take the sea for granted; and thus there is no real attempt to understand the gigantic effort which is involved in constructing, in strengthening, in increasing, in repairing, in supplying, in maintaining, and in managing this great machine.
    When the War began the British Navy was the largest in the world, representing a tonnage of 2,500,000 tons. Now it is 8,000,000 tons. That includes the Auxiliary Fleet, and were it not for that increase the seas might be barred to the commerce of the world. What is its task? Every trade route in the world is patrolled by its ships. Take its functions—take the blockade alone. From Shetland to Iceland, from Iceland to Greenland, from Greenland to the coast of Norway—the most savage waters in the world, always angry, resenting the intrusion of man by every device known to nature—for four years these seas have been incessantly patrolled by the British
    1414
    Navy. They have set up an impenetrable barrier to Germany. Elsewhere British ships are convoying, patrolling, mine-laying, mine-sweeping, escorting, chasing submarines over vast and tractless areas. They have destroyed at least 150 of these ocean pests—the submarines—more than half in the course of last year.
    I will give one figure which indicates the gigantic character of the work done by the British Navy. In the month of June alone British ships of the Navy steamed 8,000,000 miles. To that must be added the efforts of the Mercantile Marine, which has now become a part and branch of the British Navy, and is facing the same dangers with the same daring, carrying for the Allies as well as for ourselves. Most of the American troops, who have so valiantly acquitted themselves in France in recent conflicts, were carried in British ships.
    It is difficult to make those who do not understand ships comprehend the very gigantic effort it means to keep this immense machine going. There is rather a tendency to divide our efforts into two branches—men for the Army and ships for the Navy, I wonder how many people understand the number of men required to man and maintain the British Navy and the British Mercantile Marine. At least 1,500,000 for the manning and maintaining, and probably 800,000 or 900,000 of them men of military age. We have made every attempt to comb out when there was great pressure, but we found it was impossible to do so without letting the British Fleet down; and to let the British Fleet down was to let the Allies down. In order that at home and abroad this should be thoroughly understood, I will give one illustration of the importance of not in the slightest degree impairing the efficiency and strength, and, if necessary, the growth of the British Navy, and I am including the Mercantile Marine. The Germans during the last two years have made two definite attempts to force a decision—one at sea and one on land. They attempted the land offensive, because the sea offensive failed. They knew the sea offensive would have been the more final of the two. The land offensive was dangerous; the sea offensive deadly. The land offensive might have been disastrous; the other, had it succeeded, would have been final. If the submarines had succeeded, our Army in

    1415
    France would have withered away. No Americans could have come over to assist the French troops, and munitions could not have been sent across. We could not have sent across the necessary coal and material to enable France and Italy to manufacture munitions. France, Italy and Britain would not have starved, because the War would have been over before that stage was reached.
    I mention these facts in no spirit of boastfulness about the British Fleet, although its achievements fill us with a national pride, and I am certainly not minimising in the least the great assistance rendered by the Fleets of America, of France, of Italy, and of Japan. But the British Fleet is so incomparably greater, and its operations are on a scale of so much greater magnitude, that I dwell specially on this, because it is desirable that the immensity of its efforts and its importance in the War should be realised. The American Naval Mission which came over here the other day saw a good deal of the efforts of the British Navy, and was immensely struck with the vastness of the work which is done. They were specially anxious that steps should be taken to make known not merely here, but in America, the gigantic character of the task which it had undertaken. That is why I have devoted these sentences to the subject. Unless the Allies had been completely triumphant at the outset of the War at sea, no efforts on land would have saved them. The British Fleet is mainly responsible for that complete triumph. It could not have been secured and maintained without its gigantic efforts in men and material. Any distribution of our resources which would impair in the least its efforts would be ruinous to the cause of the Allies.
    I should now like to say a few words about our efforts on land. What was the problem that confronted us when we came to the Army? We had the greatest Navy; we had the greatest Mercantile Marine, and the maintenance of these two were the first charge upon the resources of this country. Then there were essential supplies of coal and other commodities, which we alone provided for the Allies, and our military efforts had to be subject to this first obligation upon our resources in men and material. We had other difficulties to confront. We were not
    1416
    a military nation in the same sense as were all the nations of the Continent. Britain had not, since a remote period in her history, had anything like military service for the whole of her population. We were unaccustomed to the idea of universal military service. Even the United States of America, within living memory, has had Conscription. That is not true of this country. British soil was not invaded; it was not threatened, and we were not afraid of it. Therefore, we had not the same visible, direct, appealing call to sacrifice which always arouses the manhood of any country whose soil is threatened with invasion.
    We had a small Army. What have we accomplished? Since August, 1914, including those who were already with the Colours, this country has raised for the Army and the Navy, in Great Britain alone, 6,250,000 men. Most of them were raised by voluntary recruiting—the most unexampled feat in the history of any country in the world. I met to-day a distinguished statesman from am Allied country, and he was telling me what an impression that had made and how there was nothing in the history of any land which would bear comparison with the great voluntary effort made in the first two years of the War by this country. In order to give an idea what this means, if the United States of America were to call to the Colours the same number of men in proportion to population, it would raise very nearly 15,000,000 men. The Dominions have contributed 1,000,000, and may I say here, before I leave the Dominions, how valuable has been the aid of the Dominion representatives, especially the Prime Ministers, in our councils during the anxious months through which we have passed. They have taken part in all those deliberations and in all great decisions which have been come to; and, although I know how the nations they represent are anxious to have their leaders back to take part in the business of those Dominions, I trust it may be possible for them to remain here some time longer, inasmuch as there will be very great decisions in reference to the coming winter and next year, when their presence will be invaluable. India, as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Montagu) in his very remarkable speech yesterday, said, has raised 1,250,000 men since the beginning of this War.
    With regard to the present military situation, the essential facts are well

    1417
    known, but perhaps I may be permitted to summarise them as they appear to one who has been working inside in reference to the great endeavour which has been made in this country during the last four months. What was the position on the 21st March? The enemy had been relieved of all apprehension on the Eastern Front by the peace of Brest-Litovsk. He had brought all his best divisions from the East, and was combing out the best men from the remaining divisions, and bringing them to the West. Most of those men had enjoyed a long rest on the Eastern Front, and had devoted their time to training and preparing specially for the great blow which was to be directed against the Allied Armies.
    On the 21st March we had in front of us the flower of the German army, rested trained, and especially equipped for the campaign. Our troops were tired by a prolonged offensive in the most exhausting conditions under which any troops ever fought. Practically the whole British Front was new ground, which had been won from the enemy, where there had been no time to set up defences, and these tired troops, instead of enjoying rest, or instead of having time for training, had to make defences. What other facts were there? Considerable American forces had been expected by the spring, but as a matter of fact, on the 21st March, there was only one American division in the line. There were three or four American divisions behind the line, and they were brought up after the attack began. The weather conditions were the most favourable that the enemy could have possibly chosen. The united command was not an accomplished fact, in spite of all endeavours to achieve it, and each general was mainly concerned with the perils of his own front. So that when the blow came the reserves of the Allied Armies as a whole were not available to meet it where it fell. These were the conditions under which a long-prepared and carefully-prepared blow by the picked troops of Germany fell upon the British Army.
    What was the object? It was to obtain a military decision this year, before the American Army could come up. How was that to be achieved? First of all by severing the two armies—driving a wedge between them, and then having separated the British and the French forces, to overwhelm the British Army and afterwards deal at their leisure with the French Army. That was the plan, and we have
    1418
    to realise the plan in order to see what the valour of the British Army has accomplished. If the first of the two objects had been attained, that is the severing of the British and the French Armies; if the second object had been attained, the overwhelming of the British Army, the American Forces could not have arrived in time to save the French Army. That was the German calculation, and let us not forget, in the light of what happened afterwards, that it was not such an impossible estimate. But how did the German plan prosper? There has been four and a-half months of such fighting as has never been seen on the face of this globe. The magnitude of the armies, the ferocity of the conflict, the losses inflicted and sustained, the valour displayed by the men who took part in the contest—such fighting has never been witnessed on the face of this globe—and not merely in all that, but in the issues which hung in the balance of that fighting.
    What has happened? At first the German Army achieved considerable success. We had anxious moments—very very anxious moments, and those who knew the most were the most anxious. The losses were considerable in men, especially in the number of prisoners captured, I regret to say, and in material, far beyond any anticipation that could have been made, and for which we could have been called upon to provide, and had they not been immediately made up, the second German blow might very well have overwhelmed the British Army. Before the battle was over, in a fortnight's time, 268,000 men were thrown across the Channel—one of the most remarkable efforts of British shipping, and of organisation of our British transport, and let us say, of the War Office. In a month's time 355,000 men had been thrown across the Channel. A fresh gun had been put back for every British gun and every machine gun that had been lost, and not merely had the deficiency been supplied, but increased; and at this moment there are more guns and more machine guns than the Army in France ever had.
    This was the first German miscalculation. They calculated that we could not do it, and let me say that we owe a debt of gratitude to a section of the Press for misleading the enemy, who was foolish enough to believe it; and if you observed there was no Minister here who knew anything who ever contradicted it. Why? Because we knew perfectly well that it was

    1419
    the greatest service which they could render to this country to go on letting the Germans believe we had no men to make up the deficiency. The enemy made his plans accordingly and attacked. They hit here and they hit there: they hit South, they hit in the centre, and in the North. Why? They thought they were destroying the British Army, and that there was nothing behind it. In six weeks they were hurled back, and fought to a standstill by the British Army. They were defeated in two or three of the most sanguinary battles of the War, and they were left in unhealthy salients, under the fire of our guns, with extended lines. Their purpose was to overwhelm the British Army; they declared it, and they announced it in their inspired Press—"We are doing it," they said. By the 1st of May they had left us to go South, to make another attack. They knew it could not be done. It is one of the finest achievements of tenacious valour in the whole story of the British Army.
    Let me say a word here about one special class. The losses were great, and we had to make them up wherever we could find trained men. We took a step which only the emergency could have justified, and that was, sending the lads of eighteen and a half, who had received five or six months' training, into the line—
    Mr. HOGGE: And giving their mothers nothing!
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is not true.
    Mr. HOGGE: It is true!
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is a monstrous libel!
    Mr. HOGGE: It is true, and it is a lie to say it is not. You know it is true!
    The PRIME MINISTER: I remember coming at nine o'clock one dark night to Boulogne, after I had been to see the generals, and I met these boys coming up by torch-light from the boat, and they went straight to the front. No sooner were these boys in France than they had to face veteran and victorious troops. No veterans ever fought with greater courage and with greater steadiness than those lads. They hurled back these legions who had vowed to destroy the British Army, and we must all be proud of the boys who have so upheld the honour of their native land, and helped so valiantly to save the cause of the Allies from disaster.
    1420
    After the experience of this six weeks of fighting, it is a remarkable fact, when you know what was the German plan, that they left the British Army alone for three or four months. They may, and probably will, come back, but that is because they have failed elsewhere. Before I quit the part which the British Army played, let me recognise the assistance we had from our gallant Allies both on the Somme and in Flanders. No one knows better than those who took part in that conflict how invaluable was the aid received from the gallant French Armies in both these great battles. I only dwell upon the part the British force took because, in the main, the fighting was theirs, and the losses were, in the main, theirs.
    After the 1st of May the Germans turned off to attack the French. There has never been since the 21st of March an offensive conducted by forces of the same magnitude. That was the biggest attack which has been made up to the present in numbers, in forces, and in concentration. After the 1st of May, they attacked the French Army, and here again they won a preliminary success on a considerable scale. What has happened since then? Not merely have they been fought to a standstill, but General Foch—Marshal Foch, if I may, with permission, for the first time call him by his new title, and I am sure that everybody here will join with me in sending a message of congratulation to him on a title which he has won by such skill, by such resource, and by such genius—by his counterstroke, which is one of the most brilliant in the annals of war, has driven the enemy back, and the enemy—who avowed that he was to capture Calais, perhaps Paris, by dates which vary according to the temperament of the prophets from May till August, August being the latest, who was to capture Paris, destroy the British Army, and overwhelm the French—is now retreating. The danger is not over, but he would be a sanguine man on the Gorman General staff who would now predict that General Ludendorff's plan of campaign will succeed in its objectives, and enable Germany to obtain a military-decision this year.
    I do not wish to go beyond that, but I should like to say one or two words about the elements of success, because they have their bearing upon the future. The first was the rapidity with which all losses were made up. I need not

    1421
    refer to that. The second was the rapidity with which the American troops were brought over. These two are essential parts of the German miscalculation. The first German calculation was that we could not make up our losses. Their second calculation was that the Americans could not be brought over. They looked at what had been done. In February the Americans brought over about 48,000 men. I think, in January, there were still fewer. The German General Staff, which seems fairly well informed, came to the conclusion that if what was said in the British Press about our having no men was true, if what they knew about troops being brought over in American ships was true, and if what a certain section of the Press said about our having no ships was also true, then the destruction of the Allied Armies was a certainty. That is one of the uses of a good Press. It is a mistake to contradict it, and that is my complaint about questions put here. It is very difficult not to contradict them. That was the German second miscalculation.
    Soon after the blow of 21st March, the British Government made a special appeal to President Wilson to send men over, even if they were not formed in Divisions, so that they could be brigaded with British and French formations. President Wilson responded by return. It was prompt, it was decisive, but he stipulated that we should do our part of the carrying. It was true that we had no ships to spare, but we impressed upon the Shipping Controller the enormous importance of getting every American soldier over, and we pulled ships out of trades which were quite essential. Do not let anyone imagine that we had ships to spare. In order to carry over American troops, we have had to sustain a loss of 200,000 tons per month in essential cargoes, which means 2,500,000 tons per annum. But it has been justified by the result. I forget how many thousands,—800,000 or 900,000, troops—have been brought over since the date of the battle, mostly in British ships. In the month of July 305,000 American troops were brought over, of which 188,000 were carried in British ships.
    That was the second element in the restoration of the situation, because everyone knows how valiantly these troops have fought. It is not merely, as I have repeatedly said here, that they have fought with courage
    1422
    —everyone would have expected that of the American Army—but that they have fought with a trained skill which no one had a right to expect. The men are brave, but the officers, who, after all, are not trained officers in the ordinary sense of the term, have shown a skill, a knowledge, and a management of men under trying conditions which you could hardly expect from men who have not had years of training, and who have not had a good deal of experience of war. That is one of the most remarkable facts in the fighting of the American troops at the present time.
    What is the other element that has made for success? I am not sure that I would not almost put this first. Unity of command is at last achieved, but after a long struggle. The word "Generalissimo" is a misleading word. There is no Generalissimo in the real full sense of the term. A Generalissimo is a man who has complete command over his army, who appoints generals and dismisses generals, and who controls not merely the fighting in the field, but the troops behind the lines. That is not the position of Marshal Foch. It is not the position to which he aspired. In the ordinary sense of the term that has not been attained, and I am still of the opinion that it is not desirable that it should be attained. No one has claimed it; no one has argued for it. What has been established has been unity of strategic command, and that has answered every purpose, as the Germans know too well, and to their cost.
    Our first experiment in this direction was last year with General Nivelle. General Nivelle was the Commander-in-Chief of the French Army. It is right when you have two great armies in the field that he who is in command of the greater army, other things being equal, should command the whole; but, apart from that, you were fighting on French territory. General Nivelle was an exceedingly able and experienced officer. He it was who in the main commanded in the great struggle round Verdun, which resulted in a disastrous defeat for the German Army. He had a great strategic plan for a combined attack upon the German Army in April of last year, and he was the first general in this War who devised the plan of an attack upon a wide front, which the Germans have since followed with such success. When that attack took place unity of command was established during the battle. It was to come to an end after

    1423
    the battle was over. That was the experiment. There has been a good deal of controversy about the French part in the battle, and into that I shall certainly not enter, but I have always thought that even there great results were accomplished. Even in that battle, taking the battle as a whole, 50,000 prisoners and from 400 to 500 guns were captured. Large tracts of territory, some of the first strategic importance, were captured. The British were to attack on the left of the Allied Army, and the main attack was to be on the heights of Vimy. The British part of the battle was the biggest success won by the British Army since 1914. Hon. Members will recollect that it ended in sweeping the German troops from the heights of Vimy, from which prolonged attacks by the French Army in 1915 had failed to dislodge them.
    If hon. Members want to realise how important that is, they have only to look at the part which the Vimy Ridge has played in this great battle. Look at the map, study what has happened. The Vimy Ridge has been like a great bastion, which the Germans could neither capture nor turn. Every effort they have made has ended in the most sanguinary repulse, and yet as long as it was in British hands it made it difficult and even impracticable for them to carry out their great operation of severing the British Army, and ultimately destroying it. Think what a difference it would have made had the summit of the Vimy Ridge been in the hands of the Germans on the 21st March. It would have made all the difference in the world.
    That was the first experiment in unity of command, and it achieved great results especially for the British Army. Then came the various efforts at Versailles and afterwards. Unfortunately, the controversies which raged round the decision to bring about such unity of command in February of this year were so prolonged that we had no time to reap the benefit of it before the great blow fell—controversies, I am sorry to say, not merely in the House of Commons, but in the Army itself. But the Germans succeeded by their blow in convincing the most obdurate as to the essential need for unity of command, and from the moment that Marshal Foch assumed the strategic command the fortunes of the Allied Armies were restored. There have since been, perhaps, mishaps, like the Chateau-Thierry disaster, but
    1424
    the masterly handling of the reserves—French, Italian, American, as well as British—gradually baffled the German efforts, and ended in this disastrous retreat from the Marne; which has produced such a wave of confidence and enthusiasm in the Allied countries and such depression, throughout the enemy lands.
    It is too early to predict that the German effort is exhausted, and it would be a mistake for us to imagine that. It is no use fostering a false optimism. The Germans have still powerful forces in reserve, though not so many as they had. But although it is too early to say that their efforts are over, it is not too early to say that the chances of the 21st March will not come to them again. Those conditions cannot now be reproduced for the German General Staff. The Americans have already a powerful Army—a tried Army, and a victorious Army in France, equal to the best troops in the field, growing every day and there will be no break in the increase of that Army until America will have an Army not far, if at all, short of the German Army itself. On the other hand, Germany can never maintain the same number of divisions. They have already been reduced since the 21st March. They are now begging for Austrian supports—rather a humiliation for the great German Army, when one knows what is their opinion of the Austrian Army! Begging for the support of the Austrian Army—the great army of Germany, which was to destroy the British Army by May!
    The German Allies are rather disconsolate over the Piavé failure. Some of them are becoming a burden to Germany rather than a support. They are now beginning to be disillusioned as to German invincibility. Germany promised great things to her Allies this year. We can see the effect. Suddenly there was a withdrawal of all peace tentacles. When you probed, you found they were not there. Why? What had happened? What of the great promise?—"Do not you worry about peace; we can dictate it in a few months. We mean to have a great offensive in the West, which will destroy the Allied Armies." The peace talk suddenly ceased! You could not hear the whispers. The tinkles of the telephone bell stopped. The great promise has failed! Economically, the position of the Central Powers and of their Allies is one of despair. Their harvests

    1425
    are not too good, and they are short of many essentials. They know that they have failed. Russia has been a complete disappointment to them. She has become a tangle to their feet.
    I should like to say one word about Russia. It has broken into a number of confused and ill-defined entities. That makes the path of diplomacy exceedingly difficult in relation to that vast country. There is no de jure government there. They attempted to set one up by election. No sooner had the election taken place than the Constituent Assembly was dispersed by force. The idea that we are behaving hostilely towards free democratic governments has nothing in common with the facts of the case. There is no Government in Russia now, whatever its professions, which is not a Government by force. Our only policy was to deal, where we had to have relations, with de facto Governments, and that is not so easy. It is impossible to decide or to ascertain who, from day to day, is governing even a single village in the vast territory! of Russia. We have not the slightest desire to interfere with the Russian people, and we certainly have no intention of imposing upon them any particular form of government. That is a matter entirely for themselves. But when we see Germany imposing her authority on large tracts, and exploiting them, or attempting to exploit them, to the detriment of the Allies, and against the will of the people themselves, we feel, at any rate, that the Russian people ought to be free to decide for themselves. They more and more resent the usurpation of Germany, and recent events, violent as they are, demonstrate that. They regard the Germans as marauders. Under these conditions the Russian people are more and more seeking Allied assistance, and we should not hesitate to render every help in our power to enable them to emancipate themselves from this cruel oppression wherever we are within reach.
    I must also refer to the Czecho-Slovak movement in Russia a very remarkable movement. The only desire of the Czechoslovaks was to leave Russia, and to go to the West to fight for the Allies. They stipulated that under no condition would they take any part in Russian politics on one side or the other. All they wanted was to get away. They asked us for ships. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and myself,
    1426
    at the Supreme War Council, came to an arrangement to do our best to get the ships to take them away, and when we returned—this is some time ago—we made arrangements to secure ships to bring them away. I want to say this in order to make it quite clear that we are not exploiting the Czecho-Slovak business, in order to interfere with Russian internal affairs. We were prepared to get the ships. We took the ships away from very important and essential work elsewhere, in order to send them to Vladivostock for that purpose. What happened? Acting undoubtedly under German duress—something like dictation—the Bolshevik Government refused to allow them to get through to Archangel and Vladivostock.
    If the Czecho-Slovaks have now become the centre of activities which are hostile to the Bolshevik Government in Russia, the Bolshevik Government have themselves and no one else to blame. The Czecho-Slovaks were anxious to get away. What did they do? First of all, the Bolsheviks tried to disarm them. The Czecho-Slovaks would have been lunatics had they handed over their arms. What has happened since has proved their wisdom in refusing to comply with that demand. The result has been they have only made for themselves that great movement in Russia which centres round the Czecho-Slovaks. You cannot blame the Czecho-Slovaks for getting assistance wherever they could in order to save themselves. Who is attacking them? We are told that Siberia is Bolshevik, If it is, why do not the Siberians support that Government? They could not get a sufficient number of men amounting even to a decent sized Army, and they have had to employ German and Austrian prisoners in order to attack the Czecho-Slovak forces, and prevent them getting through to Vladivostok. It is idle to call that a "free democratic Government," so far as Siberia is concerned. I wanted to make that perfectly clear, because there has been some criticism of the decision which the President of the United States has taken, in conjunction with the Japanese, to send a force to Vladivostock, in order to rescue the Czecho-Slovaks from the plight in which they were put by the organisation of German and Austrian prisoners of war as a force to intercept them and capture them.

    1427
    What about peace? The longest war must end in peace. There are people in every country who regard any effort to make peace as in itself dishonourable and a treason to their country. That attitude must be steadfastly discouraged. But is this the moment—I put this to all those who only want an honourable peace—is this the moment when such a peace could be made? Why did we go to war? Because that instinct which is a compound of experience and conscience taught the British people that something which is fundamental to human happiness and human progress was put in jeopardy by the great military power of Germany. That will remain in jeopardy as long as the caste that made the War is in supreme command. Has there been any change in that respect?
    5.0 P.M.
    Let us take three recent events. I mention these because they are real tests. The first is the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, when some of the statesmen of Germany went in, I think, with good intentions. I believe they were prepared to negotiate a peace which, according to their lights, would be on fair lines. What happened? As soon as there was any indication that there was to be anything except a most humiliating and drastic peace imposed upon Russia, the German High Command swept on one side Count Hertling, Von Kuehlmann's and Count Czernin, and imposed their own terms. What is the next test? The humiliating and enslaving peace imposed upon Rumania. The third is what happened after Baron von Kuehlmann's speech in the Reichstag. He said things which I should have thought would have been perfectly obvious to anyone who had witnessed the course of the War from the point of view of the Germans. In a few days he was swept away. What did that mean? The people who made the War, for the purpose for which they made it, are still there prosecuting the same sinister purpose. You cannot have peace as long as they are predominant in the councils of our chief enemy.
    I believe in a League of Nations, but whether the League of Nations is going to be a success or not will depend upon the conditions under which it is set up. Some of us have been members of representative assemblies for a generation. I hope I shall say
    1428
    nothing which will offend the susceptibilities of my colleagues. But everyone knows that when there is any great decision here, what really determines it is not so much what is said in the course of the Debate as the fact that there is some power behind which takes a certain view, and has power to enforce that view. It is the electorate here. In the League of Nations let us take care it is not the sword. The same thing might conceivably happen in your League of Nations, unless you start it under favourable conditions. You might enter it, the Germans saying, not in words, but in their actions, "We invaded your lands. We devastated them. We trampled you under foot. You failed to drive us back. You made no impression upon our Armies. They were absolutely intact when peace was declared. Had it not been for our economic difficulties, you would never have won. We will take good care next time to prepare, and not to be short of rubber, corn, cotton and other essentials." Every time you came to a decision the Prussian sword would clank on the council table. What is the good of entering into a league on such conditions? We all want peace, but it must be a peace which is just and which is durable. We do not want to put this generation again through the horrors of this War. Peace must be durable, it must be just, but it must be more. There must be a power behind that justice, a power which can enforce its decrees. All who enter that Conference must know that, and when we have demonstrated even to the enemy that such a power does exist on earth, peace will then come—but no sooner.
    Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The whole House has been deeply interested in the Prime Minister's wide survey of the naval, military, and political situation. It has been an encouraging survey. He has wisely warned us not to be unduly optimistic It is plain that we are still far from a decision, but the fact remains that at this moment the prospects of the Allied cause are bright. The House has been grateful, and I think the country will be grateful, for the items of new information which the right hon. Gentleman has given us with respect to the naval and military position. After all, this is the nation's war. It is not the Government's war. It is not Parliament's war. It is the war of the whole people, and the more

    1429
    fully and the more frequently the Government can place the nation in possession of the facts relating to the situation, the more they will be able to maintain the interest and the enthusiasm both of the people at home and of the troops in the field. There are two points arising in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which, I think, are likely, though they were mentioned incidentally, to attract very considerable attention. The first was the statement that at the time we entered this War we had a compact with France which required us to come to her assistance if she were wantonly attacked. I think the Prime Minister, if he reviews the facts, will find that his memory has deceived him as to that. Our hands were entirely free. The matter was made perfectly clear by my Noble Friend Lord Grey in his speech which he made in this House on the fateful 3rd August, in which he dealt specifically with that point, and as the point is one of very great importance, first, for the sake of the accuracy of historical record, and, secondly, to prevent misunderstanding with regard to our relations, not only with France but also with Belgium, I think it is necessary to read one or two passages:
    "I come first, now, to the question of British obligations. I have assured the House, and the Prime Minister has assured the House more than once, that if any crisis such as this arose we should come before the House of Commons and be able to say to the House that it was free to decide what the British attitude should be, that we would have no secret engagement which we should spring upon the House and tell the House that because we had entered into that engagement there was an obligation of honour upon the country."
    Further, he said:
    "In this present crisis, up till yesterday, we have given no promise of anything more than diplomatic support."
    Further, he said the French Government earlier had said:
    "'If you think it possible that the public opinion of Great Britain might, should a sudden crisis arise, justify you in giving to France the armed support which you cannot promise in advance you will not be able to give that support, even if you wish to give it, when the time comes unless some conversations have already taken place between naval and military experts.' There was force in that. I agreed to it and authorised those conversations to take place, but on the distinct understanding that nothing which passed between military or naval experts should bind either Government or restrict in any way their freedom to make a decision as to whether or not they would give that support when the time arose."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1914, col. 1812, Vol. 65.]
    1430
    Then he quoted the correspondence which had taken place between the two Governments which was afterwards presented to Parliament in a White Paper at the beginning of the War which substantiated that statement. The remark into which the Prime Minister was led may, I fear, give rise to a somewhat false impression. It is essential that the country should not think there was anything in the nature of a secret treaty or any private compact which obliged us at the beginning of August, 1914, to enter this War. It was our sense of duty, our obligation under the treaty that safeguarded the independence of Belgium, and our sense of duty to safeguard the reign of public law and the freedom of Europe against the wanton aggression of the moment, and that alone, and no specific contract with the French Government which required us at that time to enter this War.
    The second point to which I think special reference should be made was the statement of the Prime Minister that the reverse of 21st March was due to the fact that unity of command had not been established and that the reserves were not ready. That was a very grave statement.
    The PRIME MINISTER: I made a series of statements. The right hon. Gentleman has overlooked them. I gave three or four reasons why the Germans were in a superior position. The first was the fact that they had had rest and training, and that they had been able to bring back troops from Russia. That was the first, and I gave two or three others. I only put that among the number.
    Mr. SAMUEL: But the right hon. Gentleman agreed that it was among them.
    The PRIME MINISTER: I know. But there is a great difference between saying it was attributable to lack of unity of command, and saying that was one of the reasons.
    Mr. SAMUEL: The right hon. Gentleman said it was partly attributable to the lack of unity of command, and to the fact that reserves were not ready to be thrown into the field at the strategic point at which they were necessary. The House of Commons, which will remember the Debates which took place last November, will have heard that with much surprise, for at that time the Prime Minister assured the House that the arrangements which he had made at Versailles were

    1431
    such as to secure adequate co-ordination of the forces of the Allies and to ensure that, should any dangerous blow be struck, it would be effectively parried by the forces which were available in the country. While we rejoice that it was possible to send from this country 268,000 men at such short notice, and while we cordially congratulate the Government and the War Office on the rapidity with which they were thrown across the Channel at the crucial moment, the House will feel that if those large forces had been available on the spot and had already been dispatched in anticipation of a blow being struck, the battle might have taken a different course.
    The PRIME MINISTER: They were drafts.
    Mr. SAMUEL: If they were available and were not sent across, why were they not sent across?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Had the right hon. Gentleman known something about it, he would not have made that statement These were drafts to fill up gaps in divisions which were already in existence.
    Mr. SAMUEL: Were there no fresh divisions?
    The PRIME MINISTER: They were kept there as drafts in order to fill up gaps.
    Mr. SAMUEL: Were there not a considerable number of units which were sent over? The right hon. Gentleman suggests that I do not know very much about armies. But I had the advantage of sitting as chairman of a Sub-committee on expenditure at the War Office for several months, and in that connection we repeatedly had drawn to our attention the very large forces which were being kept in this country, and we drew the attention of the House to the matter on more than one occasion in our Reports.
    The House will, I am sure, join with the Prime Minister in his expression of profound admiration for the really wonderful achievement of the American Government and people in sending over in so brief a space a million and a third of men across the Atlantic, in spite of difficulties of shipping, in spite of the, perils of the submarine. It is the most marvellous achievement in transportation.
    1432
    I suppose no such large proportion of the human family has ever been transported by water in so short a space of time since the Flood. The American Army through its numbers, through the bravery of its troops, and the skill of its leaders, is likely to prove the decisive factor in this War. The right hon. Gentleman, and the House will join with him, has expressed the admiration we all feel for the gallantry of the armies of France which, after cruel losses and in the midst of a terrible strain, showing all the vigour of the first days of war, with their capital in danger, have repelled the dangerous blow directed against them. Italy is also entitled to our congratulations for her striking success on the Piave.
    A few days ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking on questions relating to Italy, said that the Italian Minister of Finance had expressed some regret that the opinion seemed to be prevalent in some quarters in this country that Italy was animated by Imperialistic ambitions in her participation in this War. If such views are held, I am certain they are held by a small proportion of our people. To suggest that Italy, in desiring to re-unite to herself the Italian population at present under foreign domination, is animated by a spirit of aggression and a spirit of annexation is, I think, as unreasonable as it would have been to suggest that Garibaldi was an Imperialist or Mazzini an annexationist in the days when they were seeking to unite with Italy the plains of Lombardy then under Austrian domination. The House views with satisfaction the fact that the Italian Government has been able to unite her policy with that of the Jugo-Slavs with whose aims and desires we cordially sympathise. If, after the War, we are to see established a new world order under the auspices of a League of Nations, I, for one, feel perfectly convinced that we cannot leave these questions of nationality unsettled. The difficulties which stand in the way of a League of Nations are indeed great, but they will merge into impossibilities if these territorial matters are left unsettled or if they are settled wrongly. If peace comes, still leaving large bodies of Frenchmen under the rule of Germans or of Italians under Austrians, of Czechs and other nationalities deprived of the right of choosing their own governments, then a League of Nations, which will be required to keep the peace of the world under those conditions, would be very little

    1433
    better than the Holy Alliance of a hundred years ago under another name. It is only by removing old wrongs that you will be able to lay broad and firm the foundations of new rights. And with what the Foreign Secretary on that point said when in dealing in a recent Debate with a League of Nations I wholly agree.
    But the House felt some disappointment with the Foreign Secretary's speech on that occasion. He dwelt at considerable length with all the difficulties, and we know there are difficulties, which stand in the way of a League of Nations, and at the end of his speech he declared himself one of its enthusiastic advocates. It was a negative speech with a positive peroration, and I fear that the longer and more negative part is likely to attract more attention than the concluding words. We were gratified to hear from the Prime Minister that he is a believer in the League of Nations. I could wish that he, on behalf of the Government, would strike a clearer note in that connection. Many of the speeches made by members of the Government give an impression that there is, if not a division of opinion, at least no great driving power behind this movement to establish a League of Nations. The tones which ring from Washington sound very differently from those which come from Downing Street, and I could wish that the Prime Minister and others would declare in unmistakable language that they, too, regard the establishment of a League of Nations, next to the winning of the War itself, as the greatest and highest task that lies before the statesmen and the peoples of the world.
    There are some, and the Prime Minister referred to them in the concluding passages of his speech, who consider that the moment has already come when we might possibly enter into negotiations with our enemy for the conclusion of this prolonged struggle, that if our war aims were restated and if steps were taken to enter, at all events into informal conversations, there is a prospect of a speedy ending of the War. Let the House recall what the facts are. In January last the Prime Minister made a statement, clear and specific, of the war aims of this country and its Allies. It previously had been shown to and approved by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Fife and Lord Grey. It was soon afterwards followed by a statement not dissimilar in terms by the Labour party of this country and then by
    1434
    another from President Wilson. To all those there has been from Germany no response—a few generalities, but no specific statement on general lines of the war aims of Germany and the conditions upon which she would be prepared to enter into peace. On the contrary, as the Prime Minister has reminded us, there have been, first, the treaties at Brest-Litovsk and with Roumania in which they trampled under foot all the great principles for which this country entered the War; and there was another significant incident when the German Foreign Minister, who ventured to suggest that the War would not be ended only by the sword, was dismissed from office, and his place taken by an uncompromising German militarist. It appears to me, speaking for myself alone, that Lord Lansdowne and those who think with him carry us no further by declarations suck as those which have recently come from that quarter. The spirit which has plunged the world into this catastrophe is still dominant in Germany, and it is clear that the prospects of an early peace are not bright. In this connection, I would like to call the Prime Minister's attention to a speech delivered in the last two or three days by his colleague in the War Cabinet, the right hon. Member for Blackfriars. It Was an interesting address to a gathering in Cambridge, in the course of which he used these very significant words. And the context shows that he means that it is a proposal for the present time:
    "I should like to see an International Hague Conference arranged by the Entente Powers at which there should be representatives not only of Governments but of peoples. I should like to see at such a conference representatives of organised labour, religion and commerce drawn from America, France, Great Britain, Italy and the Allied countries generally. At that conference the Governments might revise their peace aims."
    I should like to ask the Prime Minister, or any of his colleagues who may speak later in the Debate, whether that statement made by a member of the War Cabinet, not a Departmental Minister, represents the considered opinion of the Government, whether it was made with full Cabinet responsibility, and whether it is the policy of the Government to summon such a conference at an early date, and, if so, whether it is intended at that conference to revise the war aims of the Allies?

    1435
    I believe that the Resolution of this House and the people with regard to the prosecution of the War remains the same as it was four years ago, but that is because our war aims remain in all essentianls at the same high level that they were on when we entered into conflict. Anything which tends to lower them, to make it appear to the nation and the world that we are engaged in a struggle which essentially is an economic struggle, and that the settlement that we wish to see is a settlement which must deal primarily or largely with trade questions—any such tendency as that would degrade the whole conflict on to a lower level, and would, I believe, lessen the unity of the Allies and decrease the enthusiasm of our Armies. When we ourselves invest in War Bonds and ask others to do so, or pay our taxes, we are accustomed to say, "What, after all, is wealth compared to the lives of our men? When they are risking their very existence it would be a shame for any at home to refuse to give all their goods, if need were, in order to carry through the cause for which that great sacrifice is made." But the converse has also to be taken into account. What is wealth compared with lives? Nothing! What are lives compared with wealth? Everything! I do not think the nation would be prepared to prolong this struggle for any purposes of trade advantage. Germany makes it the object of her propaganda continually to represent the British Empire and America as being engaged in a mercenary struggle, that our real purpose is to destroy Germany's economic power and to make ourselves the trade masters of the world. It is absolutely untrue. Those who really know the spirit of these two countries are well aware that this is a calumny, but let our public men beware that they do not give colour and substance to that propaganda by the speeches and declarations that they make.
    I, for one, agree that if at the end of the War we are faced by a Germany still militarist, still aggressive, still formidable, then it may be necessary to use every economic weapon in our power in order to prevent her recovering her strength. But that would mean that we had in essence lost the War, that we had failed to achieve the objects which we set out to attain. Our trade measures then would not be economic measures, but measures of
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    defence. They would not be regarded from the standpoint of national wealth, but from the standpoint of national security. There are those who put in the forefront those questions of economic warfare after the War to be carried out regardless of the terms of peace, and whether we have achieved or not achieved our war aims, and the most vehement advocate in this country at the present time of what I regard as the counsel of despair is the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Hughes. Any man is, of course, entitled to enter the arena of political controversy in this country, and to make violent attacks upon political parties here and upon political leaders, but I would venture to suggest that before Mr. Hughes did so be ought properly to have divested himself of his character of Prime Minister of Australia. The whole nation, irrespective of party or of opinion, would wish to treat with profound respect and deference anyone who speaks here as the representative of one of our great Dominions. All the more necessary is it that he should not advance in such terms, a policy which, by a very large proportion, and many of us think the majority, of the nation, is regarded as being calculated to keep the world in a state of continual animosity and armed conflict—above all, he should not, speaking with the character and in the position he occupies, accuse those who disagree with him as being consciously or unconsciously agents of Germany.
    The Prime Minister's survey dealt mainly, indeed entirely, with the issues of the War. He did not touch upon matters of domestic policy, but I cannot refrain from reminding him that the one weakness in our position in this country arises from the condition of Ireland. I do not think this House should separate for the Recess without a word of warning, and a very earnest warning, being addressed to the Government in respect to the measures they might take in October, possibly before the House meets, with respect to military service in Ireland. I do not propose to dwell upon this matter, but I cannot refrain from recalling the words used very wisely by the Chief Secretary a few days ago when he said:
    "The Germans want trouble in Ireland. They want that species of trouble which will keep our troops in Ireland instead of sending them to the front."
    That is very true, and I would ask him to bear in mind his own words before he

    1437
    comes to decide with his colleagues the course to be adopted in regard to enforcing compulsory military service upon the Irish people against their declared will. We have, in regard to Ireland, thrown away a powerful resource of military and moral strength by our handling of the Irish situation, which I do not say by this Government, but by all Governments during the War has been the greatest failure of British statesmanship during the course of this straggle.
    There is another very important matter to which I sincerely trust the Government will give their earnest attention in the Recess, and that is the position in regard to shipbuilding, which remains disappointing. I am sure the House in all quarters is very dissatisfied at the results that have so far been obtained in respect to British shipbuilding. The amount of British tonnage which is available for all the purposes upon which the War makes great call is still declining. Although the sinking have decreased, and the building has increased, the fact remains that in the first half of this year the tonnage of British shipping has decreased by half a million tons. That is a loss which we can very ill afford. Although the month of June shows better figures, our mercantile tonnage is still decreasing at the rate of 300,000 tons a year. It is the case, as we gratefully acknowledge, that the stupendous efforts of the American shipbuilders are increasing very largely the tonnage of the Allies, but I believe it is the case that whatever new tonnage they can put into the water will be needed to feed and supply the immense increases of American troops that are being sent, happily, month after month to France. The policy in regard to the national shipyards has been a deep disappointment. It has involved so far vast expenditure with no ships, and I feel certain that when we come back again in October one of the first matters to which the House will direct its attention will be this vital question of shipbuilding, and there will be deep disappointment if the figures in the meantime do not show a great improvement.
    I should like to refer to two other matters of domestic policy. One is the Ministry of Health, in which many of us are keenly interested. There is disappointment in regard to that matter. We have had promises month after month and week after week that the Bill, which has been long under deliberation, will at once be produced.
    The PRIME MINISTER: I did not enter into this question, because I did not know that it would be in order to discuss questions of legislation. If it be so, I must invite some of my colleagues who are in charge of these various matters to address the House.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Whitley): I do not think it will be in order to refer to matters which require legislation.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I was not criticising the right hon. Gentleman for not having dealt with this matter. I said no word of criticism because I did not expect him to do so. I was not in order in referring to the Ministry of Health because that does require legislation, and it is not in order on this occasion. This is the first time I have fallen into that slip during the sixteen years I have been a Member of this House. There is another matter which I think it is necessary to deal with to-day because this is the only opportunity we shall have of doing so, and it is one of urgency; I refer to the question of the plans of the Government for dealing after the War with problems of housing—a very urgent matter and one of profound national importance. There are some of us, Members of all parties of both Houses, who have been meeting together for some weeks past to examine the Government's proposals in regard to housing, and we have come deliberately to the conclusion that they are inadequate. I think that most Members who have taken a close interest in this matter are of the opinion that the proposals of the Local Government Board and the Government with regard to housing after the War are not satisfactory. The terms are not such as to secure the building of houses upon an adequate scale, there are no measures to secure the enlistment of the assistance of public utility societies and private enterprise; and there is insufficient security for economic building and management. In fact, the Government have not taken hold of this question with big enough grip. I suggest to the Prime Minister, who has done me the honour to listen to my speech, that the Government ought to deal with the question of housing with something of the spirit and something of the grasp with which he dealt with the question of munitions of war, and that they should take steps to provide the nation with the building materials necessary and with the houses essential for the people with something of the same energy

    1439
    with which they provided themselves with munitions of war; but with a somewhat closer regard to financial control. On that depends the health of the people, temperance, industrial efficiency, agricultural development and social contentedness. All these things are bound up with the housing question, and those of us who are specially interested in this subject desire to warn the House and Government in time. We believe that unless they change their present policy there will be grave disappointment, and that the measures which they take will not be adequate for the after-war conditions. Unless these steps are taken now we believe it will be too late to take them later. In conclusion, let me say that the House will disperse for the Recess much cheered and encouraged by the Prime Minister's survey of the War situation.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: As one who has been absent from this House for some time there is a sense of remote echo in some of the speeches I have listened to. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Samuel.) has spoken of Ireland. That brought me back to 3rd August, 1914, when Sir Edward Grey made a speech which really brought my late friend (Mr. Redmond) to his feet and elicited from him his historic declaration in support of the policy of this country in the War. My right hon. Friend did not draw a very agreeable picture of Ireland at the present time, and quite rightly. I cannot help recalling that on 3rd August, 1914, Sir Edward Grey described Ireland as the one bright spot on the horizon. The Prime Minister has described the very dark hours of March last, which recalled me from scenes far away from the scenes here. I was in San Francisco at that moment. I considered it to be my duty in America at moments of darkness and menace to encourage my American friends and my American audiences with confidence as to the victory of their arms with regard to those who were fighting with them. I recall the welcome and even the enthusiasm with which my words were cheered by those American audiences. I was recalled from San Francisco by the right hon. Gentleman at a very unfortunate moment for me because at that moment the generous citizens of that wealthy city were contributing very largely to a fund I was raising, and I had good promises from other parts of the great State of California; but when the right hon.
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    Gentleman proposed Conscription I thought it necessary to leave San Francisco and California and to get to Washington, which is the intellectual and political centre of America.
    I hope the House will allow me as one who has exceptional opportunities of studying the position in America, to give the House some impressions which I got from my visit. The conditions were somewhat exceptional in my case, because on all previous visits to America I practically confined my intercourse to those of my own race in America. My own race was not quite so cordial to me as on previous occasions. Instead of meeting the vessel with a green banner and a loud band and with a deputation outside the quay, I landed one Sunday morning on an empty quay without a single person to give me a welcome. That to a large extent, for the time at least, meant that I had closer intercourse with men of other races than my own, and in that way I had somewhat exceptional opportunities, and very instructive opportunities, of getting at what I may call the soul and mind of the American people.
    With what objects did I go to America? I was sent there by the late Mr. Redmond, and my mandate was renewed by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) when he succeeded the late Mr. Redmond. My mission was to obtain financial support for my party, but I was sent with an even greater purpose, and that was to advocate to the people of our own race and to the American people generally the policy for which Mr. Redmond stood and for which my hon. Friend (Mr. Dillon) in as full a sense stands to-day. That policy was an unswerving support of the cause of the Allies in this War for what we regard as the principle of freedom. That was an attitude which I very soon found out did not commend itself to a large number of my race. I was assailed, for the first time in my life, by as well organised and as unscrupulous and mendacious a campaign as ever was waged against a public man. I do not suppose the gentlemen who propagated the lies about me believed them themselves, but I suppose that this sort of thing is regarded as a legitimate political weapon. For instance, I was described as a paid British agent, if not a paid British spy. One gentleman in Dublin was even kind enough to name the salary that I received from the British Government—£1,000 per week. As I have been

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    away fifty-two weeks, I have made the largest income in one year that I have ever made in any one year of my existence. Fifty-two thousand pounds, according to this report, is my salary from the Government—a claim which I will be willing to exchange for a very small sum. I was described as having been brought over in a special British cruiser. I went over in the "Andania," which has since been torpedoed.
    I was favoured with a large amount of correspondence. I will not repeat the terms in which these letters were couched. They would not be quite acceptable to the ears of the polite, but I may say that when I was only addressed as Judas Iscariot, who ought to go back and get his thirty pieces of silver, I felt that that was not the worst that had been said. I was prepared for some hostility from my race in America, but their hostility was even more envenomed than I expected. I was also faced by an extremely well-organised, widespread, powerful conspiracy to prevent my appearance without interruption and disturbance on Irish platforms at public meetings. This, remember, was in June. I landed on 22nd June, and war had been declared by America in April. The period of America's intervention in the War was, therefore, one of some duration. Yet I found a state of opinion, at least on the surface, in America which was a surprise to me, and an exasperated state of opinion among men of my own race.
    One always forms a somewhat misleading impression of the city of New York when one lands there coming from our grey buildings and grey atmosphere, and after the sinister solitude of the steamer. For several days it appeared to me to be a great white city, in which there was not merely a love, but a mad pursuit of pleasure. I saw a long, unbroken stream of motor cars bringing men with their wives and children to all the pleasure resorts of the city, and in that procession was a large number of coloured men, who, with their motor cars, gave evidence of their prosperity. Within a few blocks of the hotel in which I was living there was nightly a number of addresses to large crowds by orators who are known in America as soap-box orators, and I need only mention that in all such orations I was dealt with very faithfully. That is of very little importance except to myself. The point on which I dwell is that in these speeches there were violent attacks on
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    the policy of the President and of the intervention of America in the War. And in the public Press there was a torrent of protests and criticisms with regard to the War by pacifists, by factionists and German agents, and one of the most odious of these statements was that this was a war which had been made by the Morgans and the munition workers. That statement to many people was so grotesque as to destroy itself the very moment it was uttered, but it was not so grotesque as it may seem to ordinary hearers. It was one of the very best forms of propaganda that could have been invented. That was the state of American opinion last June and the state of Irish opinion. In these circumstances, what was I to do? My friends were, I think, a little ashamed of sending a man within a few months of seventy years of age to America to face the fatigues of such a journey, but the journey was to be confined to three or four weeks in America and to a visit to two or three cities. I found that if I was to do any good in America either for my party or for the cause they represent—namely, the cause of the Allies—I had to be patient and to remain there. I offered the late Mr. Redmond to remain there for some time, to try to secure better results and to create a better opinion in America. He asked me to do so, with the result that my intended visit of four weeks was a prolonged one of thirteen months. It was not altogether a pleasant time, I must admit, but I do not think that for the causes which are dear to me I could have spent my time to greater advantage in any other place than in America.
    Finding so many avenues of approach to the American mind the American people closed to me, I got into touch with the great propaganda organisation, the National Security League. I did so at their request, and under their auspices I addressed, two or three times a day for nearly four months, meetings of all kinds in the city of Chicago. I do not desire to repeat any of the compliments which my friends bestowed upon me, but, at least, I can accept the compliment that I had done great service to the cause of the Allies by informing and stimulating opinion not only of my own, but of other races in Chicago. One of my hon. Friends has made a rather favourable contrast between me and some British missionaries who went to the United States, but I must candidly say that any compliment which he pays to me is not nearly as well deserved as it would

    1443
    be by Lord Reading, the present Ambassador to the United States, who has done incalculable service. I need scarcely tell the House that I never, in spite of the attacks that were made on me and the disapproval of my own race, wavered in the policy which I was sent to advocate, and which I advocate to this day. That is, that the place of Ireland in this War was at the side of England, America, France, Italy, and the other countries fighting, as I believe, for the freedom of the world. At that time perhaps American opinion required some information and some stimulation, because America is 3,000 miles away from Europe. One must never forget that. It is the central fact of the situation. But while I found so many people in America proclaiming the gospel of the success of Germany and the righteousness of Germany, my voice was heard for the opposite policy, and was heard by all the American people, and friends of mine in America have been kind enough to say that I did something for the people of our race. I believe that if I had remained long enough in America, and if I had been helped by the Prime Minister, I might have achieved even better results. I did not attend any great open-air meeting of the Irish race, though I attended scores of tumultuous, crowded meetings of Americans; but I believe that I would have been able to do so, and I believe that by what I may call a war of attrition, aided by the entrance of America into the War, I was gaining converts every day from those who are our opponents in America, as they are our opponents in Ireland. The Prime Minister threw a bombshell into my camp when he brought in his policy of Conscription for Ireland At that moment I knew that there was a weapon placed in the hands of the enemy of the policy which I advocated which it would be futile of me to attempt to confront.
    I would like to explain to the House what is the exact position with regard to Conscription in America. In these tragic moments no man has a right to speak at all unless it is with perfect candour. When first that proposal was made by the Prime Minister there was in some parts of the country, in some newspapers, among some sections of opinion, a rather strong tide against the position which Ireland took up, and very naturally. The Americans had submitted to Conscription without a
    1444
    murmur, their sons were going to fight, and some of them had already died in the War, and it was a primâ facie suggestion to their minds that if their sons went to the War it was not unreasonable to ask that the sons of Irishmen should go and do the same thing. And I do not take the position—and I could never take the position—that if Ireland be given the determination of her own destinies she could afford not to send to this fight for freedom her own sons, just as the sons of other nations are being sent. But what I did hold and I do hold is this, that no Power has any right to impose enforced enlistment on any nation but a Power created by the voice and the electors of that nation. In these circumstances, as I have already said, I went to Washington, and I had any number of interesting experiences there. I addressed a meeting in the auditorium of one of the public Departments. I was helped by the generous friendship of my friend the Secretary of the Interior. The call for my meeting was issued by a well-known senator, who is not only one of the most distinguished and one of the ablest, but also one of the most conservative members of the Senate of the United States. It was also signed by Senator Phelan, the son of Irish parents, and by two Congressmen, one a republican and one a democrat. I addressed what I was told was one of the most influential audiences that ever assembled in Washington, including a Cabinet Minister. I would have had all the Cabinet Ministers except for the rival attractions of a Red Cross gathering—six members of the Senate, eighteen members of the House of Representatives and most of the foreign missions.
    6.0 P.M.
    I mention those things not by way of self-glorification, heaven knows, but for the sake of showing the interest that was attached to this subject, and on the case of Ireland against Conscription I got a unanimous verdict from that audience, and I believe that the imposition of Conscription without Home Rule, Conscription by an alien Parliament, will meet with the combined opposition of all men and of all parties in Washington and of all who are responsible for the public opinion of the country. Articles have appeared in the "New York Times" making attacks upon Ireland, as representing the views of journalists and of men in America; but that is not true, because at the very moment that the "New York

    1445
    Times" was making these attacks upon Ireland the "Chicago Tribune," the greatest paper in Western America, and scores of other American papers were defending the cause of Ireland, a cause that they understood, and I repeat this as a warning to the Government, that if they attempt to carry out Conscription in Ireland they will break the moral unity of the American people. Perhaps one of the reasons why I carried so much American opinion on my side was that I was able to quote the speeches of my hon. Friends around me, that I was able to quote the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, the speech of the Leader of the Labour party, the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle, and the speech of one who I am sorry is not here to hear me say that it was a speech of great, interesting, and a most touching vindication of the position of Ireland and of reprobation of the position of the Prime Minister and the Government, namely, the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hull; and I was able to quote the opinion of another hon. and gallant Member of the Conservative party, and further to quote the unanimous verdict of the Liberal Members of this country against Conscription, and no Government, however powerful it may be, will dare to put in operation against Ireland a measure which is condemned by all the moral opinion of all the world. Never was feeling more bitter—I might almost say so frenzied and anti-English—among my countrymen in America as it is now.
    I can speak with some little experience on this matter. I have been going to America since 1881. I have always preached the same gospel during these visits, as I have preached all my life, and it is one of the tragedies of political old age to see that the gospel that one has preached during all that time, the gospel that was to secure on the floor of the British Parliament the rights of our country, and to which I looked confidently to reconcile the two democracies of England and Ireland—it is one of the tragedies of political life, I say, to see these hopes disappointed. During these visits I recounted the palpable fact, as true to day as ever it was, that we have behind our demand all the representatives of organised labour in this country. Over and over again I called attention to the fact, more familiar to me than to my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches, that I
    1446
    saw the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth, one of the most respected as well as the oldest Member of this House, and the late Mr. Alexander Macdonald, take their seats here as the first of the direct Labour Members. I have seen in the repeated changes which take place in the membership of an Assembly like this, hundreds of Labour Members in this House of Commons, and of all those hundreds I never heard of one who was not an avowed friend of the liberties of Ireland. I hope I shall not be considered anecdotal if I recall the speech I made in 1880 on the policy of Mr. Gladstone, which had just been rejected by the electors of this country. A new Conservative administration had come into office, and a member of it was Sir Henry Matthews, in the position of Home Secretary, who afterwards became Lord Llandaff, and is now dead. Among the passages in the career of this Tory Home Secretary was one where he won the election of Dungarvan as an opponent of the Liberal Attorney-General of that period, and he found it convenient to form an alliance with the Fenian party, which had sworn to destroy the Liberal Attorney-General who had sent so many of their comrades to gaol.
    Strange alliances are not confined even to that period of Irish history. I remember reading out a series of resolutions that had been carried at the Chicago Convention of Americans of Irish descent—every resolution having been proposed and carried unanimously—offering to the democracy of England full reconciliation with the Irish at home and the Irish in America. I remember saying, on that occasion, that perhaps this did not go quite as far as the then Home Secretary, who must recollect something of his friends of the Fenian party, though, at the same time, there never was carried a series of resolutions of more drastic nature. Take it from me that up to this War, and up to the execution of the rebels, there was a growing reconciliation, among the Irish in America, as there was in Ireland itself, between the people of Ireland and people of Irish blood in America, and the people of this country. What is the explanation of the Irish mind in America to-day? We who live in Ireland, and we who are of Irish birth living in England, have recent events constantly crowding our minds, but you must take it from me that there is only one permanent factor in the

    1447
    minds of men of Irish blood, and that is the emigration and the horrors of the famine suffered in 1846. In America they get most of their modern information about Ireland from newspapers, and that is a somewhat unsatisfactory method of following historic events. Irishmen in America are the descendants of those who left their country during the period of the emigration. Their grandfathers and their grandmothers, whole Irish families, left their country and landed upon the shores of America, and the men who have descended from these poor Irish men and women, driven to the American shores by famine, look back to that period of 1846. And when they get back to that there is no reasoning with them. Theirs is a frenzy, a justifiable frenzy, at the hideous treatment to which their forefathers were subjected. In Quebec there is a monument raised to the memory of 6,000 Irish men, women, and children, lying under the sod there, uncoffined. They recall that these poor Irish men and women fell by the wayside and died of hunger. It takes the imagination of an Irishman to realise the resentment with which the Irish in America view the result of conditions in Ireland that compelled these emigrants to land on the shores of America in rags, starving, and suffering, coming from a country whose industries were destroyed by English legislation, a country which is able to supply, if necessary, half of your food, and would have supplied it if the people had been given proper legislation, because the famine of 46 was an artificial famine.
    Above all, Americans of Irish descent resent the fact that their forefathers, who were driven to that country by the misgovernment of their native land in 1846, were an unlettered people. Irishmen of to-day whisper about the sad happenings of the past with tears in their eyes, and tell you how their fathers and mothers could not read and write. These descendants of the early-Irish emigrants have themselves attained to positions of wealth, of respect, and of power in American life. These men are the descendants of emigrants who came to America unable to read or write, and whose children, handicapped for two generations in the battle of life, were compelled to be hewers of wood and drawers of water. It is the descendants of these people who have become men and women of culture, controlling great businesses,
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    and holding high positions in the life and business of America. That is the temper of Irish Americans, and I warn you that by injustice to Ireland you will bring back the men of our race to that background of hate. It may be asked, and quite rightly, Does that mean that America will not fight in this War to the very utmost of her strength? No; of course not. I do not think I ever saw a change more astounding in my life. Assuming that my first impressions were right, and that there was at first a certain apathy in some of the American cities, I saw in three months' time one of the most extraordinary transformations of the American mind, and perhaps my intimacy with many Americans enables me to trace the psychology of that change. The American character, like other characters, is very various, and, like every other temperament, it has self-contradictions. I do not know any man who has more generosity than an American. I do not know any man who has more patience than an American. I think their patience under the necessities of the War is one of the most marvellous things I have ever seen.
    I do not know whether it is because Englishmen feel themselves entitled to remain loyal to their racial and century-old traditions, but whatever the reason, the restrictions placed upon their food and other things in England excited, to put it mildly, some grumbling. When they established Conscription in America I never heard a man complain. When they established a meatless day in America, I never heard a man complain. When they established a liquorless State, I never heard a man complain. For loyal acceptance of the necessities of the War and the wisdom of the measures of the Government, the American people stand foremost among the peoples of the world. While the American is the most generous and the most patient of men, he is also, when he has made his resolve, the most ruthless. I came over with a number of American soldiers on a transport, and they were quite unlike our soldiers. I went across from Folkestone to Boulogne once during the War, and I intended to have a little sleep on the boat by way of avoiding seasickness, but I could not sleep a wink because, from the first second to the last of the journey, our Tommies sang at the top of their voices. It was the same song and the same words, but it seemed to give them every satisfaction.

    1449
    They sang, "Don't bury me at all, but put my head in alcohol," or some such inspiring lyric as that, and no sooner had they completed that refrain than they went at it again. The American soldier is quite different. He is much grimmer. I do not think he is a bit braver. The American is coming into this War as a matter of grim business, as a job he is going to finish. If I could conceive this country—and I cannot conceive it—by pacifist agitation, by division of opinion, by mistakes on the part of the Government, being ready to drop out of the War and accept an inconclusive peace, I am convinced that America would go on if she had to do it on her own. There is a kind of temperamental difference between the American and the Englishman in their view of this War, and, as an illustration of that, I will mention that when I was last in New York I saw that every wall was covered with a placard on which were letters ten feet long descriptive of a cinema show. I may, perhaps, keep within the bounds of Parliamentary expression when I say that the legend ran, "To H—with the Kaiser." They visualise the Kaiser, they embody this War in the person of the Kaiser and the Junkers, and they are determined to twist their necks, metaphorically at least, before they give up this struggle.
    Do I say that the Americans of Irish blood feel differently from the Americans of the other races? Not a bit of it. They feel it more. There is no man so ardently American as the man of Irish blood. America has done more for him than she has done for any other race in the world. I do not want to make comparisons, because all races in America, not excepting the Germans, at least of the second generation, are unanimous and fervent and ruthless in this War. But, if I am to make comparisons, I think I can say that the Irish are at least as numerous as any other race in the Army, and I believe in the Navy of the United States, which is manned by voluntary recruiting and not by Conscription, and, therefore, which is the Service that most appeals to voluntary and ardent patriotism, 40 per cent. are men of Irish blood. The War will not last for ever. It seems to me that there is a fundamental mistake in the point of view with regard to this War, which some people take. Their minds very naturally are so concentrated on the fortunes of the battle front, they are so full of and inspired—and I am with them, of course—
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    with the idea that they must and are going to inflict a crushing defeat in the field upon the German armies, that they forget that the War does not last for ever, that there is something as important as a victory in the field, and in some respects more important, and that is the kind of peace you make afterwards. You may give away every single advantage you have won by the most crushing victory in the field by unwise counsels here or unwise counsels there. What are we to get out of this War? I think of the sacrifices that have been made, and by no country more willingly and more gallantly than by the people of England, and I sit in an assembly of men, including men on my own benches, inside whose lintel the angel of death has passed. Nine hundred men have died of my own Constituents. I look at France, and I think how her families have been darkened for all time to come, and the question I am always putting to myself regarding peace, which is just as important as the War, is this: Is all this precious blood to be shed in vain? It is shed in vain, even if we get a victory on the field, if we do not make the proper kind of peace. And what is the proper kind of peace?
    I have heard allusions made to-night to the League of Nations. I must confess that I have not had time to go into any study of that proposal, but I am in favour of anything that will help to preserve the world from future wars. But what will mean that the precious blood of our sons has not been shed in vain will be, whether you call it a League of Nations or not, the creation of a power that will be able to strike down the German Junkers and the German Kaiser if they ever dare to try to repeat this experiment upon mankind. That is what I call a real peace, and anything that does not give us that is not a peace at all. I wonder if hon. Members ever ask themselves—if that guarantee for the future of the world, if that real pledge of our victory in the field and of our security in the future is to be obtained—I wonder if they analyse the question how it is going to be obtained? Must we not obtain a guarantee by such a close combination for the future between the Powers now fighting Germany as exists at present? If France is going to pursue a purely French policy, regardless of England—I do not think it is in the least likely—if England is going to pursue an English policy, regardless of the policy

    1451
    of France; if America and England are going each to follow their own lines, commercial and otherwise, without the least regard for each other's interests, where is the guarantee of peace? Does not that mean that, of all the things necessary to prevent all this precious blood being shed in vain, and to prevent a victory on the field being turned into a defeat in the future, every man who is conscious of the true interests of the British Empire and of the true interests of America must do his best to bring these countries into the friendliest relationship? It is as clear to any reasonable man as a problem in Euclid.
    And now I put my next point. To-day there are no hyphenated Americans. I have never spoken of Americans of Irish descent as hyphenated Americans. I always speak of them as Americans of Irish descent, which is really the proper way to describe our people in America, because, above all things, they are loyal American citizens who happen to be of Irish blood, but who never put the interests of Ireland above the loyalty to the country to which they belong. There is no other possible course for any man of any race. Therefore, if America demands any sacrifice of their feelings, they are making it to-day. We shall not always be at war. Supposing the War is over within twelve months from now—and we still have to contemplate the possibility, as we shall have, of an uprising again of the German Junkers to prepare for the fight, and to renew the fight—how are we going to meet it? The American soldier of Irish blood is fighting in the trenches to-day. He was one of the first to fight in the trenches. The ancient historic regiment, the 69th (New York), were the very first regiment, I believe, sent to the front, and another Irish regiment, the 9th (Massachusetts), was also one of the first. Do you think that, because they are willing to fight and die for America now, they cease to listen to the call of the blood, and that they will not give to Ireland, as every liberty-loving man of every country in the world gives to Ireland, sympathy in its aspirations? After the War Americans of Irish blood will still be of Irish blood, and will still open their hearts to the call of the motherland of their race, and I tell you in language that is unmistakable that, unless you reconcile Ireland you will never reconcile the American race of Irish blood, and if
    1452
    you do not reconcile them, you will never have the whole heart and soul of America with you in upholding the peace of the world.
    What stands in the way? I see my right hon. Friend, my old Friend, the right hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes). I am sure he does not stand in the way. An hon. Friend below me says he does, but he is an Englishman and I am an Irishman, and I perhaps take a more charitable view. I am not sure that the Chief Secretary is not anxious not to stand in the way. No, no! I have not had the advantage of hearing him yet, but I have heard of him. I do not know where the Prime Minister stands on this, or, indeed, on any question except the winning of the War and the maintenance of unity. But what stands in the way? Is it the people of England? Is there any man here, whatever his political party may be, who would declare that it would not be a measure of relief and of joy to the English people that Ireland by self-government should be reconciled to England? Is it the opposition of the Liberal party? To a man that party is in favour of self-government for Ireland. Is it the opposition of the Labour party? To a man both here and in the ranks throughout the country it is in favour of giving self-government to Ireland. Is it the opposition of the Conservative party? There is a strong current in the Conservative party in favour of self-government—and I find strong confirmation of that in the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson)—and the most eloquent possible desertion of the Orange cause by some members of the Conservative party.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Only some!
    Mr. O'CONNOR: I never expected the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London to have sense on any question where Ireland was concerned, but I will soften that observation, which is not in the least intended to be ill-natured, by saying that his heart is no harder against the people of Ireland than it is against the working classes of England. What stands in the way? The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College! I want reconciliation. I want re-conciliation of all parties in this House and in the Commonwealth. Therefore, I am not going to make anything, I hope, approaching to personal or offensive observations

    1453
    with regard to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. Indeed, really, I found myself in the rather curious position in America of being a little on his defence. Lawyers and men in Wall Street declared they could not quite understand why he had not been shot or hanged. I do not want him to be shot or hanged; I want him to be converted. I do not know whether I can be described as devils advocate for fighting his battles. I did not find a single man in America who was not astounded and shocked by the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, and shocked and astounded by the policy of successive Ministries. I think I am entitled to eulogise the right hon. and learned Gentleman as one of the most remarkable figures even in the history of the Irish race. A Chinese Ambassador was once seen running out of a diplomatic gallery, and, when asked where he was going, said he was going to Ireland because it was the only country where Irishmen did not rule. If he came to the diplomatic gallery here, he would see an Irishman ruling the British Empire. During my voyage across the Atlantic I occupied some of my time in reading a remarkable book, Sir George Trevelyan's "History of the American Revolution." Its analogy to the policy of the Government is most uncanny. Sometimes I thought I was reading contemporary documents and contemporary speeches and contemporary articles. Let me give you, as an example, the words of Franklin on the re-enactment of the Stamp Act, one of the wildest follies of that time:
    "I hope nothing that has happened or may happen will diminish in the least our loyalty to our Sovereign, or affection for this nation in general. I can scarcely conceive a King of better dispositions or more exemplary virtues, or more truly desirous of promoting the welfare of all his subjects. The body of this people, too, is of a noble and generous nature, loving and honouring the spirit of liberty, and hating arbitrary power of all sorts. We have many, very many, friends among them."
    Cannot I use the very identical language of Benjamin Franklin with regard to the English people to-day, and with regard to men who stand in the way? On the 4th June, 1766, after the repeal of the Stamp Act, the health of George III and Benjamin Franklin were drunk in Philadelphia. He fought for the reconciliation of England and the American colonies as long as he could. The great body of the Quakers, who were not only the wealthiest but the most powerful thinkers in Philadelphia, where the conference
    1454
    was held, and in Pennsylvania, fought against separation to the last moment. But the folly of George III. beat down the efforts of the friends of England in the American colonies. Chatham, William Pitt, Edmund Burke, Charles James Fox, Lord Rockingham—every man in England at that time who was unpurchasable—was for keeping America and England together. Lord North, although he was the author, or, at least, had to be the sponsor of the policy, said in private that he was against the policy. When I went to America this last time and saw and realised, as I had never done before, often as I had been there, its vast potentialities, its railway stations and great buildings, one of its great companies, the United States Steel Corporation, having a revenue every year as big as the taxation of this Empire before the War—when I say I saw all these abounding signs and spaceless potentialities of wealth and strength, I thought, had it not been for George III., Lord North, and other lunatics of that kind, the British flag might to-day have been flying from New York to San Francisco. But the thought continued, and I was not surprised that even to-day folly and weakness are again imperilling the existence of the British Empire. I complimented, I hope in no unfair language, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University on his achievements, but I did not tell them on the other side all that I might have said: that he had precipitated this War. I might have said that he precipitated, if he did not create, rebellion in Ireland. I might have said that he broke up one Ministry, and, if I am not mistaken, he tried to break up another. But there is one man who still has a bigger record than the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and that is George III.
    The story is not yet told. Let me tell you that if you do not settle the Irish question and if you do not reconcile the Irish race in America by arguments and facts, you are threatening the future of this Empire as much as George III. threatened to destroy the British cause in the days of the American revolt. God knows we have done our best to save you from your own folly! We fought the Sinn Feiners in Ireland. The only policy we have pursued in relation to the War is that of the late John Redmond. I never wavered for an hour in putting that policy forward in America. When I heard that the right hon. and learned

    1455
    Gentleman the Member for Trinity College had stood up to call attention to the seriousness of the situation I am bound to say that the irony of the situation stood revealed. He warned us against any potential breaking-up of the British Empire. I do not know whether I heard of his language with more stupefaction than terror. What must be in the minds of men who think it good to threaten the break-up of the British Empire rather than to join with other Members to help his fellow countrymen to govern their own country? The Prime Minister has returned to his place. I am going to make a suggestion to him. There are many men of English birth in the United States. Mr. Friend, Mr. Samuel Insull, a great Chicago friend of mine, is one of the most successful men there. He was born over Westminster Bridge. He has the respect of all in his adopted country. He is a great public man. He is strong and enterprising, and works sixteen or eighteen hours a day. He is a man of business genius, the head of various companies, with a capitalisation amounting to 300,000,000 dollars. What does he think of this situation? There are correspondents of all the great papers in America, every one of them, as far as I know, Englishmen by blood and birth. Ask them concerning these things. Ask your Ambassador at Washington—one of the greatest Ambassadors you ever sent there. Inquire from them as to the situation in America. Ask any intelligent American where the present policy of the Government leads. I can refer to private representations and to public statements which demands that in the recognition of small nationalities that the small nation of Ireland shall be recognised. I urge the reconciliation of Ireland and of the Irish race. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has the choice of two alternatives. He cannot have it both ways. I tremble for the future of the British Empire if the Irish people unliberated, and the Irish race all over the world unreconciled, continues. I pray that he may make the right choice.
    The PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I may be permitted to offer a short explanation of the statement which I made in the course of my speech. I was dealing with the military and naval effort which this country has put forth, and demonstrating that whatever expectations
    1456
    that we had ever raised, we had exceeded them. In doing so I referred to what I called the only "compact" we had ever entered into with France. My right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Herbert Samuel) challenged the word "compact," and I say at once that I think the word "compact" was much too strong to describe what had actually passed. I think it is very important that any misunderstanding on that point should be instantly put right. I was alluding to the speech of Viscount Grey, then Sir Edward Grey, and referring to the letter which passed between Sir Edward Grey and the French Ambassador. This letter was written on the 22nd November, 1912. Sir Edward read the letter in the speech quoted by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It says:
    "My dear Ambassador,—From time to time in recent years the French and British naval and military experts have consulted together. It has always been understood that such consultation does not restrict the freedom of either Government to decide at any future time whether or not to assist the other by armed force. We have agreed that consultation between experts is not and ought not to be regarded as an engagement that commits either Government to action in a contingency that has not yet arisen and may never yet arise. The disposition, for instance, of the French and British Fleets respectively at the present moment is not based on an engagement to co-operate in war. You have, however, pointed out—"
    And this is what I desire to come to—
    "if either Government had grave reason to expect an unprovoked attack by a third Power, it might become essential to know whether it could in that event depend upon the armed assistance of the other. I agree that, if either Government had grave reason to expect an unprovoked attack by a third Power, or something that threatened the general peace, it should immediately discuss with the other whether both Governments should act together to prevent aggression and to preserve peace, and, if so, what measures they would be prepared to take in common."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1914, col. 1813, Vol. 65.]
    I think the word "compact" was too strong to use in that connection. In my judgment it was an obligation of honour. It was an indication that if there were an unprovoked attack—I used the words "wanton attack," practically the same thing—if there were an unprovoked attack, then we were prepared to discuss with France the method of coming to her assistance. I think the phrase "obligation of honour" would be a more correct description of what actually took place rather than the word "compact," and it certainly was not a treaty. I had nothing

    1457
    in my mind except that letter when I spoke, and I think the matter ought to be put right at once.
    Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: May I point out that Sir Edward Grey on that occasion said that this Government and Parliament were perfectly free, and that the position of the Government was that we had
    "No secret engagement which we should spring upon the House and tell the House that because we had entered into that engagement there was an obligation of honour upon the country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1914, col. 1810, Vol. 65.]
    The opinion of Sir Edward Grey was that there was no obligation of honour. After reading that letter, Sir Edward Grey continued:
    "I think it makes it clear that what the Prime Minister and I said to the House of Commons was perfectly justified, and that, as regards our freedom to decide in a crisis what our line should be, whether we should intervene or whether we should abstain, the Government remained perfectly free and, a fortiori, the House of Commons remains perfectly free. That I say to clear the ground from the point of view of obligation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1914, col. 1814, Vol. 64.]
    7.0 P.M.
    Commander BELLAIRS: The speech of the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) to which we have just listened was extraordinarily eloquent, and I would willingly have sat here till eleven o'clock listening to him. But I confess I do not agree with many of his conclusions. I wish to say this with regard to his speech: he made an abundance of assertions in reference to American sentiment, and he spoke as if the "New York Times," which has given a version of American opinion about Ireland and Conscription hostile to his own views, was the only newspaper in New York, whereas nearly the entire New York Press has had its version telegraphed across to this country, and it is clear that the general attitude is hostile to that taken up by Irish Members in this House. I have collected a few of those extracts of American opinion, and I should like to have the opinions of others who have been in America—for instance, that of Major Ian Hay, who has lectured all over the country—
    Mr. DEVLIN: Was the hon. and gallant Member here the other night when I proved that nearly every assertion made by that author in the book which has been circulated was false?
    Commander BELLAIRS: I do not propose to enter into a controversy on that
    1458
    point. I did not hear the speech of the hon. Member, and all I wish to say is that the statements which have been made here to-day about American opinion have been ex-parte statements. It is necessary for us to have other opinions, and I quite agree that the Prune Minister ought to inform himself of the opinions of gentlemen like those named by the last speaker. I think, too, it is practically the unanimous opinion of this House that night and day the door stands open to Home Rule for Ireland on the basis on which it is possessed by every State in the American Union, and when that fact becomes known throughout America then all American sympathy with regard to the position of hon. Members below the Gangway disappears at once. The hon. Member referred to President Wilson. He spoke of past history and of Franklin's views, but if he would look up President Wilson's own history in regard to the seceding States in the American Civil War he will see that President Wilson pointed out that the seceding States were unanimous in their opinion, unanimous in favour of secession, but he also pointed out at the same time that government by popular consent was subject to that fundamental law of the Union. I do not believe that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, Dublin (Sir E. Carson) would dare to challenge a Bill brought before this House on the basis of Home Rule all round for the United Kingdom, which would give to Ireland the same rights as are possessed by States in the American Union or by one of the provinces of Canada.
    I listened with great interest to what the Prime Minister had to say. His subsequent explanation relieves me of the necessity of quoting what Sir Edward Grey actually said in reference to the honourable understanding with France. What struck me in the right hon. Gentleman's speech was how true is the saying of Emerson that no man understands a truth thoroughly until he has contended against it. The Prime Minister was, to my mind, a great apostle against preparedness before the War, and I would say, like St. Paul, he is now the greatest of apostles in advocating the necessity for preparedness in regard to this War. We really look upon him as the personal embodiment of our cause in this War. In these days of optimists and pessimists—of friends and enemies of this country—the Prime Minister's speeches are eagerly

    1459
    read, and in regard to his flowers of rhetoric, some will gather honey like the bee, while others gather poison like a spider. Therefore it is necessary for him carefully to survey the situation as a whole. Although I have seen him found fault with in the past for not referring to the Navy, I have never doubted for one moment that that was because he has absolute confidence in the Navy and in its success in this War. I am glad that to-day he put the Navy in the forefront of his speech, because it will give great satisfaction to men who are doing arduous duties afloat. I was also glad he made so generous a reference to the mercantile marine. It is perfectly true that the Grand Fleet is the key of all the activities of the Allies, and that if it collapsed the whole campaign would collapse. Therefore, it is right that the Lords of the Admiralty should be perfectly determined on the point that they will not hazard the Grand Fleet. Some people are inclined to cavil because an enormous force of destroyers and other small craft is kept locked up with the Grand Fleet, waiting for the day when the German Fleet comes out. It would be stupendous folly even if on one occasion, although it be for only one day in this War, we were to divert any of these craft for work against the submarine. But some of us have contended, and we do contend, that there is a large surplus fleet beyond the key fleet which is not being used for any vital purpose, and we also contend, and will continue to contend, that it is possible for the Navy to engage in large offensive operations. I am glad to see we are being urged to do so by the French Press. When the Prime Minister speaks of the immense results which have flown from the unity of command on land, I ask him to consider this, that the sea is much more one than the land. You get much more rapid movement. You are entitled to ask for unity of command on the sea, and that I contend is the first condition for our offensive operations, just as the one condition of General Foch's offence was that he should have unity of command to enable him to wield the Allies as one force.
    When the Prime Minister told us that the Navy had steamed 8,000,000 miles in June, I could not help thinking of those splendid operations which Sir Roger Keyes carried on at Zeebrugge and Ostend, for which the Navy did not need
    1460
    to steam even 800 miles. This steaming 8,000,000 of miles by the British Navy alone, apart from the Allies, is all carried out for the sake of one gigantic defensive, and when I say that it is possible to carry out larger offensive operations, I am thinking of places like Heligoland and Wilhelmshaven. We contend there is something which holds the Navy back at the British Admiralty. We ask that it should engage in larger offensive operations. It is impossible to believe that places like Heligoland, which could all be compressed into a 600 yards square, is not susceptible of surprise attack from the great surplus Fleet, or to operations by smaller craft or by gassing. Sometimes ideas float to us by accident. We heard of the destruction caused at Halifax by the explosion of a single ship. Does it not suggest itself to one's mind what could be achieved in a somewhat similar way at Heligoland, or at German ports, seeing that one single ship with a quantity of explosives aboard destroyed a whole city? I think, therefore, there is every ground for the suggestion that it is possible to engage in, larger offensive operations when we have these ideas floating to us from what has happened in the past. I put that forward because in this House we are always finding that the Government is criticised for sins of commission and never for sins of omission. Take the Reports of the Select Committee on Public Expenditure. I have looked through those Reports, and I have never found a single criticism on sins of omission; they have all been on sins of commission, and the result with regard to Ministers and sailors and soldiers is to affect their operations. It is to create a generation of safe men—men who will jump not quite so far as the House of Commons wants them to jump and who therefore land on the safe side. You get in the administration of the country and in the conduct of war a tendency to abstain from any offensive in which is involved risk and unless there is a fair certainty of success offensive operations are not engaged in.
    I may take as an example the occasion when the German Fleet came out to the Baltic. I have contended there never was such an opportunity as that for our Navy. There is no harm in saying anything now. It gave the Navy an opportunity of a double objective. The German Fleet, according to the Admiralty's own statement, would have come back from Riga

    1461
    in order to bar our entrance through the Great Belt. What did that mean? It meant that they would have abandoned the operations against Riga, and that would have saved Russia. They would have been deployed opposite the minefield, would therefore have become targets for our submarines. It also meant the German Fleet, being in the Baltic, that the whole Heligoland Bight was uncovered and we could have blocked the channel to the Elbe, which goes for fourteen miles out to sea, and the Germans would have had to come out at the Baltic entrance and fight an action with the Grand Fleet. The Prime Minister said that until the Navy is defeated the struggle goes on. That is not perfectly true, and he showed that it was untrue later on when he came to survey the services of the British mercantile marine. It has been my contention right through that in this War the British Navy and the British mercantile marine are one. It is possible for the British Navy still to be holding out, still to be supreme, and yet for this country to be defeated by the sinking of its mercantile marine, in which case there would be starvation. The same operation which sunk the British mercantile marine would have prevented American troops coming across, and the cause of the Allies would have collapsed. Therefore I welcome the statement of the Prime Minister that the British mercantile marine must be regarded as part of the British Navy. Since the British mercantile marine brought so many American troops across one sees the overwhelming importance of that mercantile marine. I was, therefore, somewhat surprised when the Prime Minister told us that the Government had made every effort to comb out the men in the mercantile marine, and those who were working in the building yards. That leads me up to what I believe to be a true statement, that the mercantile marine in this way has been bled white. The Navy and the Army between them have taken out the best of the mercantile marine officers and very many of their men. This matter was not of much importance while the mercantile marine of the Allies was dwindling, but now has come the time when the mercantile marine of the Allies will be expanding at a very rapid rate. What preparation is the Government making for this state of affairs? The Americans will have a tremendous task, and they are meeting it with characteristic thoroughness. They
    1462
    have established ten training ships, and they are training men for the mercantile marine in the Navy, so that every ship has double crews. We are doing practically nothing. The number of our training establishments has actually been reduced. There is the "Worster" and the "Conway" for training officers, and the boys are waiting four deep to join them. There is no other method of training officers for the mercantile marine. I know we have a few apprentices, but they receive no training, and they are mere messenger boys on board merchant ships. I have represented, and I will go on representing, that it is the duty of the Government to try and meet this emergency by joining America and Japan in treating this as one front and one question. We have jointly to solve it. Otherwise we shall not be pulling our proper weight. The only step which I can see that the Ministry of Shipping has taken is that they have prohibited our captains of merchant ships joining the American mercantile marine. It stands to reason that America cannot give the experienced training for captains of ships, and that is one direction in which we could give vital assistance.
    The Shipping Controller contends that the Americans are going to produce their own men, but I think we ought to do all we possibly can to treat this matter as one front, and where we can most vitally help the Americans is by giving them at once a certain proportion of our mercantile captains, and endeavouring, through the establishment of training ships, to meet this question of expansion which is going to loom so largo in the future in the mercantile marine. I am not going to recount the countless difficulties which captains, chief officers, and engineers of the mercantile marine have had to meet, but I do say that owing to inefficient manning the ships are not getting their proper speed, and they are more subject to the submarine menace than they need be. There is no systematic signing on, and sometimes the men do not join up, or insist on absenting themselves ashore, the result being delay. In the American ports the men go on leave the moment the ship gets in port, and they demand half their pay. If they do not get that pay the American magistrate comes on board and says the men are to be discharged, and to be given the whole of their pay. The result is endless difficulty. And how can you in

    1463
    time of war get ships properly manned under this voluntary system of signing on? A man may refuse as an A.B. because he dislikes having the watch or the wheel. I mention these matters as examples of a few of the enormous difficulties which the captains of the mercantile marine have to encounter. They have not proper authority. The Mercantile Marine Act was framed for the purpose of peace, and we need one framed for the purpose of war, and I do not think the men would have much reason to complain. As the Prime Minister said, we have never applied Conscription to our Armies. We used to have it for the mercantile marine, with the Press-gang for manning the Navy, and now we have the most absolute freedom and laissez-faire. Surely we might stiffen up the manning a little bit. I contend there is no real authority at the Shipping Controller's Department in St. James' Park which is looking into the manning of the mercantile marine in conjunction with our Allies. There is a National Wages Board consisting of thirty-two members, but that only adjusts wages. There is a Departmental Committee which occasionally meets, and which has to produce co-ordination between the four Departments of the Government. It is purely insular. There is no body which is intended to deal with the American effort, plus the British effort, plus the Japanese effort, in order to man that great expansion of about 10,000,000 extra tons which will come from the splendid shipbuilding efforts which America is putting forward. Instead of doing that, we have a vast body of inspectors going on board harassing the ships of the mercantile marine. I heard of one ship on which six inspectors came on board at different times. The first was an inspector of crow's nests, and he ordered them to move the crow's nest higher up the mast. The second was an inspector of masts, and he ordered the masts to be hinged and lowered down, so that the crow's nest went. The third was an inspector of scuttles, and he ordered them to get the cargo out and paint the scuttles inside. The fourth was a Board of Trade inspector, who said, "Your headlights, according to the Regulations of the Board of Trade, should show 4 miles." The fifth inspector said the headlights were to be obscured, because he was an Admiralty man and had the safety of a convoy at heart; and the sixth was an
    1464
    inspector of bedding. I think the shipping company's own superintendent could have fulfilled all these functions, and reconciled them with advantage. Unless some Member of this House is going to take up the question of the mercantile marine we shall go on with our laissez-faire system, because there is practically a conspiracy of shipowners and men in favour of the system. It gives the shipowners more profits than any other system. The ships are all insured. The men like the laissez-faire system because they are not subject to irksome discipline like the Navy. For these reasons I hope that the Government will give this matter their most urgent consideration. I have no desire to meet them in 1919, when I believe this Parliament will still be sitting, in spite of numerous prophecies to the contrary, by the statement "I told you so," or any humbug of that kind.
    Mr. P. A. HARRIS: The hon. Member who has just sat down has performed a very useful function in keeping before the House the important question of the Navy and the mercantile marine, and it was highly satisfactory to me to hear the Prime Minister give so much prominence to the Navy in his survey of the naval and military position. I think it is the first occasion where in any of the general surveys of the military disposition the Navy has had its due and proper position, and that is owing largely to those who have constantly kept before this country the fact that, after all, it is on the Navy that depends the ultimate success of the Allies in this great War, and without the Navy all the efforts of our soldiers and of our armies would come to naught. The Prime Minister, in his most interesting and instructive and inspiring outline of the efforts of the nation during this four years of war, made a passing reference to What I am afraid must be called a disaster at St. Quentin. The public have short memories, and in the joy of victory it is common to overlook set backs to their armies, but the St. Quentin incident has been kept fresh in the mind of the nation because of the measures that were found necessary to repair and restore our military position.
    I was rather sorry that the Prime Minister could not go into more detail. There was a time during the first three years of the War when it was customary to publish the dispatches of the Commander-in-Chief, and give explanations and also give credit where it was due

    1465
    to the various phases of the military campaign. In recent months that custom has been departed from. It may be that the pressure of the last four and a-half months has made that impossible, but I think the time has come when the nation should be satisfied by some more detailed expression of the set back to the Fifth Army than up to the present has apparently been possible. I am not saying this in any spirit of complaint. War necessarily has its ups and downs. No nation can enter a war without realising that it has to take risks, and we must be prepared to face set backs. Anybody who studies the attitude of the people during the four years of this great military struggle must-agree that the nation is not discouraged by bad news, in fact it only stimulates them to fresh energy, and braces up the nation to put forward its greatest strength when such a misfortune as the St. Quentin incident is sprung upon the country.
    The disaster to the Fifth Army has impressed itself upon the mind of the nation, all the more because the Prime Minister had told the nation that the Armies of our Allies were actually in a majority over our enemies, and therefore the tale of the reverse is all the more serious. What has brought this incident still more home to us has been the remedies that were found necessary in order to meet the situation. Those remedies were approved of by the House of Commons and were generally accepted by the nation. First, of course, was the passing of the Military Service (No. 2) Act, 1918, that brought into the realm of compulsory service for the first time men between forty-three and fifty. Although it was seriously going to affect the well-being of a large section of our people, the measure was approved and accepted as necessary to meet a serious military disaster, and in order that we might restore the position of our Armies and again get the initiative into our hands. It was pointed out and generally agreed that it was going to cause untold hardship and great social and economic injuiry to thousands of homes, many of which would be destroyed in the process, but the Prime Minister assured us that it was only intended to take 7 per cent. of the men for the Army. As far as one can gather, it has not meant a great addition to our military strength, but the uncertainty of this liability on the part of the older men is a very serious matter, and I would ask the Prime Minister or the Under-Secretary
    1466
    to give us some assurance that now that the military situation is improved it will not be necessary to call up a very large percentage of the men, at any rate over forty-six, who have not yet been touched by the Ministry of National Service. If he would do that, it would reassure these older men and enable them to go back to their ordinary occupations and improve the feelings and sentiments of the civil population.
    That disaster did not only result in this particular measure. The Prime Minister. I think on 8th April, had to came down to the House to tell us that in addition to having to pass legislation to bring-fresh ages under the Military Service Acts, the Army Council had found it necessary to abandon their policy in the training of youths under nineteen. The Government had pledged themselves to the House and to the nation that, although they were going to call up lads of eighteen, those lads would only be trained and would not be sent overseas until they had reached the age of nineteen. That was a most solemn pledge. Owing to a military emergency and to a situation largely unexpected, due to a military disaster, the Government had to depart from that policy and rush these boys, half-trained and unprepared, over to the fighting line. The Prime Minister has given a graphic description of how bravely they faced the situation and how splendidly they fought. No veterans, he said, fought with greater courage than these lads. One cannot blame the Government for their action at that time. The crisis was so serious and the position so difficult that they had to meet it with emergency measures and rush any soldier that was available across the seas. But I think the Prime Minister would be the first to agree that this particular measure was most undesirable. Any medical man would say that lads of eighteen are not physically fit to stand the strain of a modern campaign. The average lad at that age is not fit to stand the heavy strain of carrying the big pack of paraphernalia which is necessary for the modern soldier, and with that pack to undergo the ordeal of a big military effort. It very often means a permanent breakdown and the undermining of their health. The Under-Secretary for War would bear testimony that three months is not enough training for boys who have had no previous military training. No doubt it has been said

    1467
    that many young officers have gone over to France and have done yeoman service, although they have not reached the age of nineteen, but very often those lads have had the advantage of training in an Officers' Training Corps. To take lads from homes as absolutely raw recruits, only give them three months' training, and send them overseas is not doing justice to them or to our Army. It is a sacrifice of our potential man-power. Military experts will agree that there is no better soldier than the fully-trained youth or young man of nineteen and a half, the young man who has had six or nine months' training in this country, who has been through camp life, and who has had the advantage of good food and proper care, but to take them before they are trained, and before they are fully grown and send them overseas is a profligate policy, and must ultimately injure the fighting strength of our Army, If, unfortunately, this War should drag on right through the winter.
    Perhaps even more important than these reasons is the moral point of view. Modern war is Hell indeed. There has been nothing like it in history. In ordinary times there were lulls and periods of comparative quiet. Modern war means that the soldier has to go through an ordeal which involves a terrible strain on his nerves. It is bad enough for fully-grown men to have to go through it, but it is not fair to ask boys, immature and untrained, to stand the nerve strain. I do not think that I shall be contradicted by my right hon. Friend when I say that these immature lads are more liable to shell-shock and nervous breakdown than fully-grown men who have had proper training. Perhaps the most important argument in favour of a return to the methods followed before this year is the policy pursued by both the enemy and our Allies. The Germans have been very hard pressed for man-power, and they made very great efforts this year; but even the Germans, not inspired by any principle, but only guided by expediency, have not thought fit generally to put into the trenches their 1920 class, which is equivalent to boys of eighteen. Our Allies up to the present have consistently kept these lads in the reserve. It is true, according to an answer to a question of mine, that Italy last autumn, under the pressure of the Austrian offensive and the
    1468
    disaster that followed it, put in lads of eighteen as an emergency measure, just as we did in April, but as soon as the emergency had passed they reverted to their former policy, and they do not now utilise in the front line youths until they have reached the age of nineteen. France, with her years of experience of compulsory service, France who is fighting in grim earnest and is prepared to make every sacrifice, has persistently pursued the policy that it is not wisdom to take these boys of eighteen and send them into the front line.
    The other day I read an account of a debate in the French Chamber, where the whole subject was discussed. I believe it is now contemplated to call up the 1920 class, but the responsible Minister in the French Chamber gave a guarantee that they were not to be utilised in the front line, but were to be kept in depots and trained. That is the policy that I ask the Government to adopt in this country. I ask them, now that the emergency is over, to toe the line with our Allies, and not to send overseas boys until they are nineteen. I say that in no spirit of criticism—I am not complaining about the past—but I think the House and the nation have a right to ask, in the interests of these young men and their parents, that the policy, which was well thought out and well considered by our military authorities, of not utilising lads until they are nineteen, but of keeping them and training them in depots, should be again followed. Apart from the question of expediency, there is the very strong sentiments of the nation on this question. I have had letters from all parts of the country, not of complaint, but letters from men who are keen on the War and who are prepared that their sons should do their share and take their part, representing that it is not right that their boys should be sent to fight before they are physically fit and before they are properly trained. I would ask the Under-Secretary of State for War to put this matter before the Army Council on the ground that as a matter of public policy we cannot afford to disregard public sentiment, on the ground of military effort, and on the ground of the efficiency of our Armies overseas.
    Sir HERBERT NIELD: I should like very warmly to recommend the course which the last speaker has suggested. I have not only been deluged with letters,

    1469
    but I have had personal contact with many cases in which application for exemption has been made for boys of eighteen and, although here and there a boy is unusually developed, no one for a moment would suggest that the ordinary boy of eighteen, except under exceptional pressure, should be incorporated in the Army and should still less be sent out to fight. I have only recently received a piteous letter from the parent of a lad who is in danger of being sent, if the policy which has prevailed for the last two months is to be persisted in. I hope that the Under-Secretary will bring the question before the Army Council and cause the position to be revised, and I hope that never again in the course of this War will it be said that boys who have not reached nineteen years of age have left these shores to fight.
    The point I particularly desire to bring to the notice of the Under-Secretary of State for War is the wastage of manpower that is going on within the Army. There must be a kind of Nemesis which follows the decisions of men who have the right to dispose of other persons among the various units. My complaint is based upon the absolute want of anything like reasonable discretion being exercised as to men who are unfit for the full duties of military service but who are exceptionally fit for other work, either in connection with civilian employment at home or even in connection with special duties in the Army, and insisting upon keeping them as ordinary soldiers and dealing with them in such a way as to make them unprofitable from the point of view of the country. The case to which I would particularly call attention is illustrative of a great number of cases, not precisely the same but of a very similar character. It is that of a young gentleman who at the outbreak of War was an undergraduate at Cambridge. His case is so illustrative of what I am complaining of that I will deal with it in detail. He was an undergraduate at Cambridge. He was the son of a clergyman and was intended for the Church. He was then in the early twenties, just the kind of man to make the right kind of chaplain. When war broke out, he promptly enlisted and obtained a commission. He was attached to the North Hants Regiment. He joined up in November, 1914, and remained in his battalion until April, 1915. In infancy he had been afflicted with a peculiar nervous disease which had been so severe that it had caused double hernia from his
    1470
    birth; it had shortened his left leg, and affected the whole of the nerves of the left side of the body. Notwithstanding that, he was accepted and passed by the military medical officer and allowed to take his commission, which he held from the time he joined his battalion until 19th April, 1915. It was then found that in consequence of his lameness it was utterly impossible that he would be able to discharge his duties effectively, and his commanding officer was compelled to suggest to him the desirability of sending in his resignation. I will read the letter from the commanding officer:
    "I am very sorry for many reasons that you have been invalided out of this regiment. You are a very pleasant fellow and always willing to do anything you are asked to, but your nervous lameness quite unfits you to be an officer, as an officer should be able to march not only as well but better than his men. I know it is a disappointment to you, but you have the consolation of knowing that you have done all you possibly could from a patriotic point of view, in joining a service battalion, and it is not your fault if the doctor who first examined you passed you fit for active service when you were not. I am much obliged to you for the willing way you have worked while in this regiment, and I wish you every success in the calling you have chosen to follow."
    On or about the same date the commanding officer was bound to report him as not likely to make an efficient officer, and the result was that his commission had to be surrendered. He promptly returned to Cambridge to take up his calling, and he took his arts degree. Then, in accordance with the programme which his father had laid down for him, in order that he might qualify for the life he intended to follow, he entered Ridley Hall, Cambridge, as a theological student. He remained at Ridley Hall until December, 1917. He was then on the eve of ordination. He had actually sat for his ordination examination and had passed. I should say that in the meantime, feeling that he would try again to see if he could not be useful to his country, in March, 1916, he applied to go out as a member of the staff of the Church Army, but I understand that that was refused by the Ministry of National Service. In December, 1917, being ready for ordination, he received a notice to join up under the Military Service Act and requiring him to present himself for examination. He accordingly presented himself for examination. He was then passed in the old Category A, which meant general service, notwithstanding the fact that he had had to resign his commission on account of his

    1471
    lameness and the infirmity from which he suffered. He was then sent into the Royal Garrison Artillery, although he was on the eve of ordination as a curate. When he got to his depot he was put first to one thing and then to another, because it was always found that his old infirmity prevented him from marching and making an efficient soldier. The House will hardly credit it, but this man of an exceptionally devotional spirit, who was marked out as of great value to the Church, was actually, in default of anything else, put to cleaning out the latrines in a garrison town in the West of England, and remained there for some time. If that is not wastage of material I do not know what is. He was then drafted into Cornwall to take part in duties rather more fitting than those which he performed previously. An application was made to get him permission to be withdrawn.
    This is the position of affairs: There are two Bishops of the Church who, knowing this young man, are most anxious to ordain him. There is an Archdeacon—I am not going to mention names—of one of the largest churches in the country, who is so impressed with the usefulness of the clerical career that lies before this young man that he has said he shall have a curacy the moment he is at liberty and qualified to take it. Added to that, while he was engaged in battalion duties in the West of England, the chaplain allowed him, although it is contrary to all order, to conduct services as acting chaplain. The highest possible credentials can be given to the young man in relation to the vocation he has set himself to follow if it were not for the Ministry of National Service and the Army authorities. The Chaplain-General has offered to give him a chaplaincy the moment he is qualified to take it. Although in that career to which he is devoted he has already the promise of an opening, either as a priest of the Church or as chaplain, which he would prefer at the present time, because he has a most extraordinary influence over his fellow men, yet that man is kept in the Army. At the moment I believe he is relegated to a lonely, dreary place on the North-East Coast, where his duty is to look after his gun. I understand it is proposed to send him in a draft to Malta. All the time the Church is waiting for men of this stamp, either in the Army as chaplains or in the Church
    1472
    at home, while the authorities stand between this man and the useful career that lies before him. He has been classified B1, notwithstanding the fact that he was previously classified A, and that he was compelled to give up his commission on the ground that he would not make an efficient officer. If he cannot make an efficient officer he certainly cannot make an efficient private. This ease is only typical of many others, and I hope the Under-Secretary of State for War will take steps to see that greater discretion and more common sense is exercised by those persons who have the right to dispose of men in the various units of the Army, and that men who are so fitted as this man is should not be thrown away on the ordinary routine duties which they either can or cannot perform efficiently, and that in this case he should be enabled to use the exceptional ability which his training and his inclination give him, so that the country and the Army may receive the full benefit of the man's services, given in circumstances and in a way which very few could excel, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to see that this man is removed and returned to civil life, so that he may proceed at once to his ordination examination and take up his useful career.
    8.0 P.M.
    Sir J. D. REES: The President of the Board of Education will remember a schoolboy who was asked in an examination paper to describe the horse, and who said, "The horse is a noble animal, but will not always do so." I will not take five minutes over a grievance of those who make him do so—the officers and men of the Remount Department—who receive the raw material from an island whose grievances have this day been aired in this House, so rich in horseflesh, almost a latter-day Colonus, and who turn the raw material into a useful artillery horse or a useful trooper, good in his own groove, hard in the mouth, resentful of a civilian rider, and apt at the sound of the trumpet, regardless of his wishes to rejoin the ranks. I do not, however, desire to make any disquisition upon the horse or horse mastership, but to urge upon the Under-Secretary of State that those engaged in transporting horses of this character across the Channel—both horses and their half-brothers or hall-caste brothers, the mules—should have permission to wear war service chevrons. The House may wonder

    1473
    why I do this. I am doing it because I have been asked to do so on behalf of gallant officers who cannot be here because they are on duty. It is a fact that these chevrons are given to branches of the non-combatant service, even, to my indignation, to conscientious objectors engaged in non-combatant units, to civilian members of the Censor's staff, to war correspondents with the British Forces, to those in the Inland Transport, to the personnel of the Indian Army—here I should rejoice—to all Regular troops serving outside the United Kingdom; also to all soldiers enlisted or re-enlisted in the Imperial Forces abroad, although many of these are far removed from the sphere of actual military operations. The service on which the Remount officers and men are engaged is a service of great danger. They cross and recross the Channel, braving the torpedo and all the other dangers that now infest the seas. Early in last month the "Hunscraft"—an unfortunate name—was returning from France after taking over horses, and was torpedoed, but the boat and the lives were saved, solely owing to the gallantry of the officers and men of the Remount Department. I do not expect my right hon. Friend to give an unconditional promise to grant these chevrons. Of course, if an officer or man has been once or twice during the period of two or three years across the Channel, he might not have a proper claim, but my right hon. Friend could deal with that. He could draw Regulations which would fairly deal with this matter. I am sure that he, who sympathises so much with the soldiers with whom he is so intimately acquainted, will favourably entertain this request which I am endeavouring to put before the House in the briefest possible manner—far more briefly than its importance and the gallantry of those I am representing deserve. I shall be glad if he will try to give the right, under such conditions as he thinks fair and proper, to wear chevrons to the officers and men of the Remount Department engaged in this dangerous and essential service.
    Mr. JACOBSEN: I desire to support the plea which has been urged on behalf of these young men on account of the very strong representations which have been made to me by my Constituents. The parents are not unpatriotic, but they feel that their sons are being sent to fight the
    1474
    Germans on unequal terms. I do not know if it is true, but I have seen it stated that boys are sent into the front line with six weeks' training. I hope it is not true. Sending boys of that age at all can only be justified by very stern necessity, of which I admit the War Office is the best judge. I hope the War Office will consider seriously the position of these young boys and do its very best to withdraw them at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. McKEAN: I myself put a question on this subject some time ago, pointing to the extraordinary number of young lives which have been lost in this War. Only the most urgent necessity could justify this holocaust of young men—officers and soldiers. There is no necessity for this holocaust, and at no time during the War was there a necessity for it. I believe the military records of the enemy nations have no parallel whatsoever to it. It is scandalous that a young officer, nineteen years of age, should be, in accordance with military etiquette, required to lead his men into action. I do not know much about military matters, but I feel certain the Germans have a much better and more scientific way of doing the same work. I believe enemy officers, instead of leading men into action, are in the ranks. They are not made a target for our fire. Now that the matter has been brought forward publicly, I hope the Under-Secretary will bring it to the notice of the Higher Command, as I suggested to him some months ago. I have had a number of letters from different parts of all these countries supporting the view I put forward.
    I rose to call attention to certain acts of the military in Ireland which, to say the least of it, call for investigation. The first case is one in which a civilian has died, as the result of bayonet and gunshot wounds in my Constituency on 4th June last. The best way to set forth the facts, and the way most favourable to the soldiers is to read some of the evidence at the inquest. The names of the two soldiers who put this man to death are Sleight and Rodgers. It is Rodgers who, it is supposed, shot the man. I will begin with Sleight's evidence:
    "Private Sleight said he was sentry at Carrigartha Bridge on the night of 3rd June. He heard footsteps coming up the lane leading to the railway bridge and saw a man coming over the footbridge. 'I challenged him,' said witness, and called out, "Halt, who goes there?" I had my rifle with the bayonet fixed. When challenged the man made no answer, but sprang at

    1475
    me and seized my rifle with both hands and said, "Now kill me if you can." He struggled to get the rifle from me and I was trying to get my whistle. Eventually I got my whistle and shouted for help.'
    Mr. Rearden (to witness): 'Did you bayonet him during the struggle?'
    Witness: 'I decline to answer.'"
    The facts as stated by Sleight show very clearly that this man who was put to death was the aggressor, but the evidence of Rodgers shows that although he was the aggressor the circumstances were such and the condition of the man was such that certainly the death penalty was too severe for the fault that he committed. I will read Rodgers' evidence:
    "Private Rodgers stated that on the night of 3rd June he was in the camp when he heard the whistle and the call for help from the sentry. He was the first to reach the sentry and pulled deceased off the sentry. He went on a few yards to look around. Witness declined to answer whether he fired or not."
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Macpherson): Rodgers is at present under trial and the case is sub judice. I feel sure the hon. Member would not like to proceed, when I tell him that, to discuss the evidence which will be brought forward on the proper occasion, at the trial. I am quite willing to deal with the other case he has in mind, but it is not wise, indeed I question if it is fair, to discuss the evidence which will be produced at the appropriate time against a prisoner now awaiting trial.
    Mr. McKEAN: I should be very sorry to do anything which was unfair, but this case happened as far back as 4th June last. There has been ample time for inquiry since then. I put a question about the matter as far back as 27th June. The first paragraph in the answer by the Attorney-General for Ireland was
    "I am informed that Patrick Duffy died as the result of rifle and bayonet wounds, but whether inflicted by the soldiers mentioned I had no evidence before me."
    This is the last opportunity I shall have of bringing the matter forward.
    Mr. SPEAKER: If this is a case for trial this would not seem to be the proper opportunity to raise it here. It is very unusual. The House has always denied itself the duty of discussing matters which were sub judice, and if this man is going to be put upon his trial it would be unfair for the hon. Member to discuss the case here before the evidence is heard before the proper Court.
    Mr. McKEAN: I protest against this charge of unfairness. I did not know it was sub judice.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have just informed the hon. Member of that fact, and the Under-Secretary informed him. Therefore, with that knowledge before him, I hope he will not continue to discuss the case.
    Mr. McKEAN: I am not discussing the case. I am discussing the circumstances attending the case. I am discussing the point that the Under-Secretary has taken.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I am quite sure no one would accuse the hon. Member of unfairness.
    Mr. McKEAN: Mr. Speaker has accused him—
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I do not think so. I ought to have explained that the trial has not taken place, because a most material witness is at present in hospital suffering from wounds. I hope with that assurance the hon. Member will leave the case and deal with the other.
    Mr. McKEAN: That puts a different complexion on the case altogether. I was suspicious of the delay. I thought it was a case which, on the face of it, required urgent and immediate investigation. It is not the same as if the case was before the Courts of Law. I take it this soldier is to be tried by court-martial, which is a totally different thing, and the term "sub judice" is not usually used in that relation. However, under the circumstances, I will not proceed with the case, but by the time an opportunity will be afforded of alluding to the matter again it will have passed into history. It will be really futile to discuss it after the Recess. If this were an isolated case I should not wish to make any capital out of it, but it is not an isolated case. It is a piece of the whole conduct of the military in Ireland. I have personal knowledge of it. If there is any one absurdity that it is possible for mortals to be guilty of, I will back the military to perpetrate it. Talk about recruiting in Ireland, I wonder there is a man got in Ireland to join the Colours at all, having regard to the conduct of the military authorities!
    I will read the particulars sent me by a solicitor from Belfast of another case which also happened quite recently, on 20th June last, during the East Cavan election. It, too, is typical of a number of

    1477
    other similar cases. This is the statement of Patrick Foy, Annsfoot Mill, Lisnagowan, county Cavan:
    "I was passing along the road between Shercock and Cootehill with two other men when a military motor van passed and the soldiers there shouted, 'Up O'Hanlon!'"
    O'Hanlon was the Irish party candidate. Arthur Griffith, one of the Sinn Fein leaders, was his opponent.
    "I shouted, 'Up Griffith!' The officer then ordered the car to be pulled up; seven or eight soldiers with fixed bayonets rushed at me and told me to hold up my hands. I did so. The soldiers searched me, and whilst doing so the officer held a revolver up to my face. The officer struck me on the side of the head with some weapon he had in his hand and knocked me down. He told the men when searching me that if I resisted to pin me to the ground with their bayonets. When on the ground the officer told the men to whack me to my feet. They did so, and then threw me into the motor van. The officer then directed me to be put in front of the motor and ordered four soldiers to cover me with their rifles, and if I moved to shoot me, and if anyone attempted to rescue me to shoot him. Four soldiers with their rifles levelled at my face sat in the front of the motor van. In this manner I was brought into Cootehill to the police barracks, taken from Cootehill by the same road back to Shercock, thence to Kingscourt, then to Bailieborough and finally to Cavan military guardroom. The distance I was carried in the military motor van was over 50 miles. At Kings-court the police were called upon to get my name. I gave them my right name and address, and a constable named Deering said there was no such place as the address I gave. I was kept in the soldiers' guardroom at Cavan for two nights and a day and a half. I was brought on Saturday evening from the guardroom to the police barracks in Cavan, whence I was taken to Belfast Prison. No information of any arrest was conveyed to my people, and it was only by accident that they heard where I was."
    As I have said before, what I want to impress on the Under-Secretary of State for War is that these two cases are typical of the general conduct of the military in Ireland. I could cite several other cases not dissimilar from and not less serious than these. Take the case of the shooting of Sheehy-Skeffington. I suppose, in the whole histories of wars and outrages, you would get nothing worse than that case. There are innumerable cases which are not brought to light. I myself, from my own personal knowledge of the military at Kingstown, where I live, can testify to the arrogance and insolence of the military. If the Under-Secretary of State for War wants any proof of that I will give it to him. It is a notorious fact that the military patrols and sentries of Kingstown arrested the late James Chambers, who was an officer of His
    1478
    Majesty's Government before he died, on some trivial and futile pretext, and detained him for two hours at the military station in Kingstown. This was the late Mr. James Chambers, the Member for South Belfast, and Solicitor-General for Ireland before he died. I do not speak in the least as an enemy of the military. I am not opposed to recruiting. I would be delighted to see all the surplus population of Ireland, if there be any that could be spared, joining the Colours to-morrow. But I say, having regard to the insolence and arrogance of these people in authority in the Army and to everything connected with the Army, that the wonder is that you get one single recruit from Ireland. Talk about Prussians. We hear eloquent denunciations of Prussians, but I tell you there is nothing worse than the Prussianism we have in Ireland. I have heard stories from other parts. I could cite other cases. A gentleman was here the other day and he told me that civilians visiting Rome are subjected to all sorts of persecution by the military there. However, that is another matter. I do not want to do more than refer to it, but what I do want to impress on the military themselves and on their representative here is that the whole system of military administration in Ireland needs to be revolutionised. That is the first step if you are going to make any progress whatever with recruiting in Ireland. This is a matter which ought to be taken in hand at once, and if something practical is to be done, I hope it will be done in the near future.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I should like, if I may, to answer the four or five points which have been so succinctly raised in the Debate which we have just had. The first point, and I think a most important point, was one which was emphasised by three of my hon. Friends and colleagues, including the hon. Members for Market Harborough and Ealing. As the Prime Minister said on 9th May of this year, and I have said on many occasions since, in answer to questions, that the War Cabinet had decided that an emergency-had arisen so great that it was absolutely necessary to send from this country every officer and man who was available. Unfortunately within that category came boys between eighteen and nineteen years of age. It is not true to say they were boys of eighteen, nor to say that they were untrained. I think I am right in

    1479
    stating that no boy went to France who had had less than fourteen weeks' training. In the ordinary course these boys would not leave these shores until eighteen and a-half, and there was a guarantee that none would go into the firing line until they reached nineteen. That was the original regime. I need hardly say that both the Army Council and the War Cabinet came to that conclusion with the greatest reluctance and the greatest possible regret, and I am happy to inform my hon. Friend the Member for Market Harborough, who has taken a very great interest in this matter, that we have now decided at the end of this month that we shall return to the old regime. I need hardly say that we personally were only too anxious to have an opportunity of returning to that regime, which seems to me to meet with popular favour, and which guaranteed in any case that no young boy would be ruthlessly sent from his home or training ground in this country to the battlefields of France.
    The second point which was raised was a smaller one. It was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Ealing. He talked at considerable length, and quite properly, about the wastage in the Army. I am not of course, prepared to admit that there is wastage in the Army, but it would not be surprising if there were. You cannot collect 6,500,000 men from all sorts of occupations, and many of them from the same occupation, who might all be fit for the same job, without having a certain amount of wastage. But I do promise my hon. and learned Friend that I will look sympathetically and with due consideration into the particular case which he brought before the House to-night. The third point was that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, in a felicitous speech. He asked me whether I would not consider the grant of chevrons to officers and men of the Remount Department who have, since the War began, been plying, whether in bad weather or good weather, in storm or in sunshine, between Ireland and this country and France and the other theatres of war. As the House knows very well, the chevron was originally given for services abroad, but I understand that quite recently, particularly in the Naval Service, the grant of the chevron has been extended to those officers and men who have been consistently doing the journeys between these shores and the shores of the various
    1480
    theatres of war. I must confess that my hon. Friend appeared to me to make out a very good case, and I promise that I will, under certain conditions which are fair and proper, and which will not make the chevron which is valued by the men too cheap, grant chevrons to these men in certain cases. The House will not expect me now, nor will my hon. Friend expect me, to consider the case of a man who has crossed, let us say, two or three times, or even four or five times, a year and who has come back four or five times a year. I imagine what the hon. Member has in mind, and certainly what I have in my mind, is the case of the man who may have gone for two solid years backwards and forwards, almost weekly, in all sorts of weather and has done his work, as my hon. Friend pointed out, admirably and faithfully. That is the type of man I should like to consider. I do not think the House will expect me to consider the case of the other man who, on some haphazard occasion, has had to go across. I hope that that will satisfy my hon. Friend. I will take immediate steps to see that certain conditions will be laid down, and if these men conform to what I hope will be fair conditions, they will be entitled to chevrons for the work which they have done.
    The only remaining point was raised by the hon. Member (Mr. McKean), and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking him for the courtesy which he has shown in letting me know that he was raising these two cases, and also for refusing to continue a discussion on a subject which, technically, is sub judice. I do not think he can expect me to accept the statement that the outstanding characteristics of the Army in Ireland are insults and arrogance. That view is not held amongst the Army in any other part of the country.
    Mr. McKEAN: I could have given the right hon. Gentleman another case from England, but I did not want to occupy too much time. I could have given several other cases.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I cannot help reminding the House that the Army of to-day is the nation. One remarkable thing I have found in my long experience of the War Office is the extremely few complaints that there are about the conduct of officers and men of the British Army to-day. I should not be surprised if when the military, as they have to do in Ireland,

    1481
    have to carry out what is practically martial law upon the civilians of Ireland, that they are unpopular.
    Mr. McKEAN: What about James Chambers' case?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I strongly resent the general condemnation of the Army as being men who are guilty of insolence and arrogance. I do not think that is the view of any other hon. Member who is now present in this House. I will not deal with the first case, but I will deal with the second case, which I will call the case of the Cavan election. My hon. Friend read a statement, if I remember rightly, of the accused person. The facts which I have are not the same facts which my hon. Friend read. If the facts were as my hon. Friend read them, I do not think the accused person would have been convicted. As it is, he has been convicted by court-martial and sentenced to six months' imprisonment, and Smyth or Smith sentenced to eighty-four days' imprisonment. During the Cavan election on 25th June last the man Fay was observed in company with other men, one of whom drew a revolver on a motor car containing military in charge of a lieutenant of the Berkshire Regiment. The lieutenant jumped out of the car, presented his revolver, and covered the party while his men searched Fay and his companions. In Fay's possession were found two revolvers, one loaded, and twenty-one rounds of ammunition. Another man named Smith had a loaded revolver. Both were arrested, and subsequently tried and convicted. The facts which the hon. Member has presented are not at all in agreement with the facts put before the court-martial when the conviction took place.
    Mr. McKEAN: I gave the facts not from my own knowledge, but as I received them from a respectable solicitor from Belfast, and everything that comes from Belfast is right and good.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: I am dealing with the facts that were placed before the court-martial, and not with the facts stated by my hon. Friend. It was upon the facts I have stated that the conviction took place, and if the facts are as I stated them, I do not think the sentence was excessive. It is a serious thing to have ammunition and loaded revolvers, and I do not think my hon. Friend would say that under the circumstances it was an
    1482
    excessive sentence. What he does complain about is that the military should have taken any action at all.
    Mr. McKEAN: I complain of the extraordinary action they took before there was any trial. They harried this man about from pillar to post and treated him as if he were a dog.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: There is no evidence of that. All I know is that he was duly tried by the court-martial and sentenced, very properly, I think, for this offence. If I am right in the statement I make I do not think the hon. Member can complain. I think I have dealt with all the points that have been raised with regard to my Department.
    Colonel Lord HENRY CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: If I had had the fortune to catch your eye before the right hon. Gentleman rose I should have associated myself with the appeal made by the hon. Member for Market Harborough. There is a very strong feeling about employing boys of eighteen in the firing line, and I am sure the House will be glad to hear that the old regime is to be restored. I came across a battalion of boys leaving London the other day, and though they were as excited and pleased as possible at the idea of going to France, one could not help but be struck by their extreme youth. Very few things have brought the War more home to me than seeing these boys being shipped off to France. The point which I want to bring to the attention of the House is the deplorable condition of our prisoners, British and Indian, in Turkey. There is great and growing uneasiness as to their deplorable condition, and public feeling and sympathy is being more and more aroused as the people more and more appreciate the deplorable state of these men, more particularly the garrison which surrendered at Kut. It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of these gallant men is one of the most pathetic and tragic pages in the annals of the British Army. More than half of the men who surrendered at Kut are now dead. I do not want to traverse the ground and harrow the feelings of the House, but perhaps the best way to illustrate what the high death-rate has been is to give the figures for different regiments. For instance, of 700 men of the Royal Artillery who were left when Kut surrendered, only 150 are now alive. Of the Hants Territorial Artillery only 14 men are alive; of the Norfolk

    1483
    Battalions only 89 are alive; of the Oxfordshire and Bucks Light Infantry Battalion only 77. It is said that the mortality is not so heavy as it was, but it is still deplorably high. For instance, there were 4,815 British prisoners taken up to 30th June. Of that number 1,655 have died, and since January, 1917, 518 have died. Of the Indian prisoners the death-rate is even higher. Of the total number, 1,358, the deaths since January, 1917, number 732.
    What have you done to relieve the conditions of those poor men? Take, first, the officers. The Turkish Government allows each officer 4s. 6d. a day, but owing to depreciation of the Turkish currency that is only worth about 6d. The British Government allow up to £18 Turkish a month, but owing to depreciation that is only worth about £3. Therefore, the British prisoners are receiving something like £30 Turkish, which amounts to £4 sterling, a month. I am told that in Constantinople it takes at least £7 English to keep body and soul together. That is a definite loss per month, to each British officer, of £3. One hears most pathetic instances of the straits to which the families of these officers are put to send enough money for them to live on. One hears also of officers spending the whole of their life's savings in order to keep themselves alive. These officers did not surrender through any fault of their own. They surrendered by order of the British Government, and it is monstrous that they should be put to this enormous expense merely to keep body and soul together. I would ask my hon. Friend to tell the House whether the Government is not prepared to make a little more generous money allowance to these officers. The men, of course, get no money allowance. They get the same ration as the Turkish soldier gets, and it is no exaggeration to say that since they have been taken prisoner they have lived in a state of semi-starvation.
    Unfortunately, we have been able to do very little to relieve their condition. For the last seven months I do not think that more 10 lbs. of food per man has reached Turkey. I am not blaming the Prisoners of War Department because the Austrian Government put an embargo on the transmission of parcels. However, I am thankful to say that that embargo has been removed and it is now possible to send parcels, and I am told that the Prisoners
    1484
    of War Department have agreed to send per month 60 lbs. of food, and clothing for the winter, and one blanket per man. But what I would like to know is what steps the Prisoners of War Department have taken to ensure that this amount of food and clothing shall reach the prisoners? Have they commenced negotiations with the Austrian Government? I would suggest that they should authorise a representative to do so. I believe that General Andrew Wilson is now in Switzerland. I would suggest that it should be arranged that he should meet somebody representing the Austrian Government to arrange for truck accommodation for this extra amount of food and clothing to be sent. I hope that the Government will take very vigorous measures in this matter, because it is a terrible thought to think of these poor men, in a semi-state of starvation, being left without food and clothing, with winter coming on. I would like also to press the Government on the question of the exchange. I am afraid that this is rather a depressing question, and when we think of the possibility of getting these men I am afraid that the outlook is rather depressing.
    The Berne Agreement is what soldiers call a complete wash out. It depended upon the sailing of a relief ship from Alexandria, but the sailing of that ship depended in turn upon the Turks getting the permission of the Germans for that ship to sail. Otherwise it would be torpedoed. Neither this Government nor the Turkish Government has yet been able to obtain the consent of the Germans to the sailing of this ship. I am afraid that it looks as if there were very little chance of this consent being obtained and of the ship ever sailing. When a colleague of mine, a Member of this House, raised this question of the exchange last Thursday, my hon. Friend who represents the Department here said that it was not very helpful to suggest a new exchange when the old exchange remained not carried out. That may be a satisfactory attitude from the point of view of the Department, but it is certainly not satisfactory to me and will not be satisfactory to this House, I am sure, or to the country to be told that there is nothing more to be done. I am perfectly sure that there is more to be done, and that the country will not be satisfied unless the Department shows a great deal more initiative and resourcefulness in this

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    matter than it has done in the past. I cannot help feeling that more might be done. Why, for instance, should not the Government get once more into touch with the Turkish Government and arrange an exchange overland? Possibly they might be sent viâ Switzerland or over the line through Palestine.
    We were told that the Prisoners of War Department would take this question up when Lord Newton returned from The Hague. Lord Newton has been back more than a fortnight, and, so far as I know, no decision has been reached as to whether the Government will make fresh proposals to the Turks. Whether this proposal has got stuck in the Prisoners of War Department or in the Army Council I really do not know, but I think it is high time there was some decision on the matter. There is great uneasiness in the country on the question. We were told that the Government is quite satisfied with the expert assistance it had at the Berne negotiations. The experts might have been quite skilful and well acquainted with Turkish conditions, but from what I am told I think they did not carry much weight among the Turks. I should have thought it would have been possible to get men in this country who have not only knowledge of the Turks, but also have weight and influence with them. I would submit that it is the duty of the Government to try and see if experts could not be secured in order to get into touch with the Turks-men who know the mentality of the Turks and have some weight and influence with them. There is another question to which I should like to refer, and that is the need of a Ministry for Prisoners of War. There is a feeling that we shall never do much good under our present regime. I am no critic of Lord Newton, or of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hope), who sits on the Front Bench. I have always thought that Lord Newton was very unjustly treated in the newspapers some few weeks ago, because as a matter of fact, the failings of the Prisoners of War Department are by no means due to Lord Newton. I must say that he holds a most impossible position. It is not possible for any Minister to be responsible for prisoners, to be really responsible, if he has got no power, if he is not master in his own house, and is merely a subordinate. We know that in war-time the last word about prisoners of war must remain with the War Office and the Admiralty. I should have thought that it would be possible to devise some
    1486
    system whereby a Minister should be made responsible for prisoners in this House, who would be able to speak with some authority and who would have some policy of his own and be able to carry it out. As I said, I do not want to say anything unkind or unfair of Lord Newton, but I must say that I think the country and the House really ought to insist upon effective measures being taken with regard to these prisoners of war, and a policy adopted which will lead to practical results.
    Colonel Sir CHARLES SEELY: I wish very briefly to support the remarks made by the Noble Lord with regard to the condition of the prisoners in Turkey. I do not think it is necessary for me to add anything to the very long and detailed statement which he has given to the House as regards their present condition. I think it is well known to the House that this condition is extremely serious, and I think the facts and figures which he gave must have brought conviction to all those who heard them, and all who will read them to-morrow in the Press, of the importance of this subject and the urgent necessity there is that His Majesty's Government should lose no time that possibly can be helped in dealing with it. I wish to press upon the Government the necessity of not allowing any opportunity to be missed in regard to this question. The right hon. Gentleman told us the other day that the condition of the prisoners in Turkey was improved and the heavy death-rate which has been referred to was due rather to the original conditions. I would point out two things: One is that owing to the early conditions nobody was left, save the exceptionally strong men; those who were at all weak died under the early conditions, and it does not quite follow, because the death-rate has diminished, that, therefore, the conditions have very much improved. I would further point out that probably some of the conditions were due to the cruelty of the Turks—I do not know to what extent it is deliberate or partially unintentional—as shown in the march of the prisoners from Kut. The condition of Turkey is becoming such that we are very anxious to know whether they treat the prisoners properly or not.
    I cannot help thinking that the life of anyone in that country during the coming winter may become extremely unpleasant, extremely unhealthy, and extremely

    1487
    dangerous. If that is the condition of large numbers of the population in the country, you cannot help realising that the condition of a prisoner in that country is very dangerous indeed. I do hope that His Majesty's Government will realise that, great as was the mortality at the beginning, serious as it has been since, there is a possibility, if matters are left as they were a month or two ago, and unless the efforts the Government are now making meet with more success than their earlier efforts, that we may find, during the course of this winter, many of those who have fought for us so bravely may not return to their homes to receive thanks for their courage and sacrifice. Obviously the best plan is to exchange prisoners, and I wish to associate myself with what was said by the Noble Lord in regard to Lord Newton. I do not blame Lord Newton. I think he has done his best under very difficult circumstances. The French and Germans arranged and carried out an exchange of prisoners a long time ago, and although no doubt everything has been done in accordance with the usual diplomatic methods by our Government, I do feel that it is urgently necessary to deal with prisoners in Turkey before the winter, and I should have been glad if the Government had commenced to make similar arrangements in Turkey to those which were made by France and Germany rather earlier than they have done.
    I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us whether actual proposals are now being made for some exchange of a similar character, and whether any efforts have been made to arrange negotiations for that purpose. It may be the case that those negotiations are still stopped by the fact referred to by the Noble Lord, that the Department over which Lord Newton presides has no actual authority of its own, that before it deals with any question it has to consult innumerable other Departments, and that, therefore, the grave question, on which the lives of our men depend, is still being delayed, not by the difficulty of negotiations abroad, but by the difficulty, which is sometimes just as great, of the negotiations between the different Departments at home. I do not know that I can add much more to what I have said in that respect. I know that the Department are anxious to do their best, and I do hope, if they cannot arrange for an exchange,
    1488
    that they will see that food and clothing are sent to our prisoners in Turkey. I know the difficulty, and that it has been stopped for some time by the Austrian Government, but that difficulty has for the moment been removed, and I trust that that will enable provisions and food and clothing to be sent to them. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider carefully the suggestion made by the Noble Lord of a meeting in Switzerland to expedite and arrange for that proposal, and I hope also that they are making arrangements to provide that when this food and clothing get to Constantinople it will be distributed properly, and as ex-peditiously as possible, to the different camps concerned. I should like also to recommend that the Government should take into serious consideration the proposal to have a Ministry of Prisoners. I do not mean definitely a Ministry, because I care not what the name of the thing may be, but what I do think is important, and what I think would have saved much misery to many of our men, would be that the authority, whoever they are, which deals with the question of prisoners should have greater power in dealing with other Departments than they have. One of the most important things in private life, in peace-time with Governments, and in war time with Governments, is that when they make arrangements with other people those arrangements should be carried out quickly, expeditiously, and completely, and the more the people with whom they are dealing are dilatory and careless the more important it is that the Departments themselves should be the exact opposite.
    The arrangements which at present exist with regard to prisoners of war make expeditious dealing with any question practically impossible. The hon. Gentleman and Lord Newton go over to The Hague and to various places, and they or their Departments make arrangements. They ought to have the power the moment they have made an arrangement with another man of saying at once to every Department concerned, "This arrangement has been made, and it is to be carried out, and if we say it is to be carried out at once it must be carried out at once, and other matters which the other Departments think are more important must not be allowed to stand in the way of us carrying out at once the arrangements we have made." That, it

    1489
    seems to me, would be the real value of a Ministry of Prisoners, and I do not care whether it is done by appointing a Ministry or whether it is done by giving the existing Department greater powers than it has at present. Something of that kind ought to be done if our prisoners are to be properly treated, and of all the prisoners concerned the ones for whom it is most important are those in Turkey. There is one other matter connected with the Prisoners' Department which I should like to mention, and that is the condition of our prisoners at the Interneerings Camp, Groeningen. I have had a somewhat serious complaint as to the food which the prisoners get there, and I think I might read the hon. Gentleman what is said about it—
    "Very often it looks as if it was made of sawdust held together by paste. Sometimes, but not recently, tobacco has been found in the bread, and once, a few months ago, a dead mouse. The bread is generally received in a very pasty condition."
    9.0 P.M.
    The serious thing with regard to this is that I hold also a letter from the English commodore in charge of the camp, who says, "The men here get quite sufficient good and wholesome food." I think that the Prisoners' Department should take care that their officers give rather better information as to what is actually happening than that, and should not report that the men have good and wholesome food when the men who happen to come home give this account of the bread which I have read to the House.
    Mr. JAMES HOPE (Lord of the Treasury): Is my hon. Friend quite sure he is referring to the same camp, because there have been two different camps at Groeningen, one for civilians and one for naval prisoners?
    Sir C. SEELY: This is the one for naval prisoners, and both letters refer to the same camp. I shall be very pleased to give the hon. Gentleman a piece of the bread, which I think he will agree is not "good and wholesome food." I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to give me an assurance that that matter will be looked into, and I beg to press again upon him the very grave and important question of the prisoners of war in Turkey.
    Colonel YATE: As the last speaker has said in connection with our prisoners of war in Turkey, it is not the slightest good our making arrangements unless they are carried out. The Berne arrangement
    1490
    was come to, I believe, in December, 1917, and four months elapsed before we got that ratified, and another four months have now elapsed, and nothing has been done. Consequently, we are in a position which is absolutely the same as it was before. Eight months have been wasted, and nothing has been done. We were told that in making that arrangement in Berne experts were employed, but we have never heard who those experts were, where they came from, what they did, or anything about them. If you are dealing with people like the Turks, you require to have a man of responsible status to deal with them. It is no good sending under-strappers or uninfluential men of any sort to undertake any dealings with the Turks. You must have men of high position and recognised standing, and also men of great experience in dealing with Orientals. The Berne arrangement has proved a fiasco. We have got nothing out of it, but is there any reason why we should limit our negotiations to Switzerland? No stone must be left unturned, and we ought to try every possible means. We all know that there are lots of Turkish prisoners in Egypt, and is it not the natural thing that we should be able to arrange an exchange of those prisoners in Egypt with the Turks in Palestine? We have an enormous number of Turkish prisoners in Burmah. Is it not only natural that we should exchange them for all the Indian prisoners in Mesopotamia? We urged it, but no real attempt has been made to open any one of those doors. We must have a man who understands how to get to the door and open it, and he should be sent out there to try to do it. What we have got to do is to get a real man, one who thoroughly understands his business, and put him in full and complete charge of the whole arrangement.
    I fully agree as to the necessity of our having a proper, responsible Minister in charge of prisoners of war both at home and abroad, with full authority over all prisoners of war, subject, of course, to the War Cabinet. Until we get it, I honestly believe we shall never get any forwarder over this question of the release of our prisoners in Turkey, the state of whom, we have just heard, is so deplorable at the present moment. The Minister, or whoever may be placed in charge of the Prisoners of War Department, should be a man able to give his whole time of it, and be absolutely free and

    1491
    unhampered by the work of any other Department. It is full-time work for any man, and until we get that it is hopeless to expect anything to be done. We do look forward, therefore, to having a Minister appointed with full power to make arrangements. Time is going on. Before we know where we are, the winter will be coming in the mountains where those prisoners are working. Unless something is done within the next few days the winter will be on us, and we shall never see these men again. I do, therefore, appeal to the hon. Member in charge of this Department to urge the Government to take this thing up and settle it without delay, appoint someone to do the work, give him a free hand, and let him get on with it without any further loss of time.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: I think this House would be devoid of the ordinary feelings of humanity if it did not, before separating for the Autumn Recess, record in the strongest way possible our deep, our most grave anxiety as to the fate of these unfortunate men who are prisoners in Turkish hands. I can conceive nothing more deplorable for brave men like those who formed our garrison at Kut, who fought with determination and gallantry until the very last, to have to fall into the hands of the enemy and remain in a condition almost of servitude until the end of the War. But the condition of these men who fell into Turkish hands is aggravated tenfold by the deplorable conditions under which they live—starvation, the absence even of the ordinary and most common comforts and needs of life. I doubt not that the Government share to the full the anxiety which every Member of this House feels. I doubt not the Government, like we ourselves, have the deepest sympathy, not merely with the men themselves who suffer, but with their relatives at home, who, with anxious eyes, watch for and scan news—even the scanty news that comes—as to the welfare of those who are dear to them. But sympathy and anxiety are insufficient. There is an urgent and an absolute necessity for taking active and immediate steps. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Melton (Colonel Yate) has pointed out, the winter is coming on, and unless these men, before winter overtakes them, are either repatriated or are furnished
    1492
    with adequate food and clothing, their fate will be indeed tragic, and I doubt whether the already grievous mortality referred to by my Noble Friend (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) will not be exceeded during the coming winter.
    What is to be done? There are three aspects of this question—three urgent needs which I should like to press upon the Government. The first is the need for taking steps to effect repatriation. The existing Berne Agreement only deals with the wounded men; it does not touch the unwounded. Even that has not been carried out. But if we were able to carry out the existing Berne Agreement as to the wounded, that is not enough. What we want is a new Berne or other agreement by which there can be an exchange of prisoners. Might I suggest to my hon. Friend, who, I know, is doing his very utmost to ameliorate matters, that when this conference is held, as it probably will be, with the Turks, it is extremely advisable to get someone who understands the habits and the minds of the Turks, and who will know how to influence them in the most effectual way. The ordinary negotiator is somewhat at a loss when he negotiates with a person of so different a mentality from our own as the Turk, and therefore it is extremely desirable that we should have someone who knows the East and the Turkish mind, in order to bring the best service to bear upon it. We are told—and I have no doubt it is perfectly true—that the difficulties of repatriation have arisen very largely from the action of the Germans and Austrians in refusing safe conduct to the ships which are to take back these men. Cannot some new avenue of approaching Germans be found by my hon. Friend? Cannot he find some new method of bringing home even to their minds the essential humanity and decency of giving safe conduct to wounded prisoners and others exchanged between us and the Turks? Let us explore every means, every possible method, of influencing the Germans in this matter before we give it up as hopeless.
    The second point is the necessity of sending parcels of food and clothing at the very earliest possible moment. I think it was announced by my hon. Friend on the 29th of last month that it was hoped to arrange for the despatch of clothing, and, I presume, of food, overland to Austria. Yes; but what guarantee

    1493
    have we that if this clothing does pass through Austria and does reach Constantinople, it will ever get beyond it? Who have we at Constantinople who is going to visit the camps and see that these parcels reach them? I believe at the present moment the Dutch Minister is not permitted to visit the more distant camps in the Taurus, but surely it is not beyond the power of persuasion, through the agency of neutral Ministers in Constantinople, to induce the Turks to send those parcels and to see that they reach their destination? We shall be glad to hear what progress has been made in the negotiations which have taken place for that purpose. Then there was the point made by my Noble Friend as to the amount of money which officers require to keep body and soul together. Many of these officers, we know, have not the actual money in their possession if they were to pledge everything they had in their power to pay for the bare necessities of life. If that be so, surely it is the business of the State to supply them with money to keep them in bare existence, and I doubt if there is any man in the House of Commons who would object to a Vote, however large it might seem, for the essential and humane purpose of saving these brave men from absolute starvation and ruin.
    The last point is one which has been touched upon by every speaker who has intervened in this Debate, and that is the question of getting all the threads of this business relating to prisoners of war into one hand, as far as possible. I do not know how many Departments deal with the matter at the present time. There is the War Office, the Admiralty, and, I suppose, the Foreign Office, to a certain extent, and the Prisoners of War Committee. These authorities are all more or less co-ordinated, but there is not one authority which has taken the lead in this matter, or can take it, and say: "This or that must be done." There must be consultations going on between a number of people of co-equal authority and persuasion must be exercised upon one Department and another. I know my right hon. Friend does all in his power—I think everyone is agreed on that—but surely decisions might be arrived at much more quickly and much more effectively, and, having been arrived at, might be carried out much more efficiently? If we had the representative of one Minister armed with
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    authority who could go round the different Departments and say to one Department or another: "It is the desire of the Minister that this should be done, and it must be done," it would be much better. Therefore, I do beg my hon. Friend to represent to the Prime Minister, or in the proper quarter, the strong views which have been expressed in this direction, how many Members in this House, at any rate, probably everyone who has considered the matter thinks that if you had one authority you would have much more likelihood of getting things done than by having half a dozen authorities, or more, sometimes, in conflict with each other. This is an urgent matter. It is a necessary matter. It is a matter which no man with a heart or conscience can refuse to look at without the gravest and the deepest anxiety. I do trust that before we separate for an interval of a couple of months we shall get some satisfactory announcement of what is being done, and what will be done, to save the lives of these brave men.
    Mr. STEWART: The urgency of the matter which is now being discussed, and the misery of our prisoners of war, especially in Turkey, induces me to say a very few words by way of backing up the Noble Lord in his effort to get, if possible, an exchange of prisoners. What has happened in regard to this question to-day confirms, I think, the contention that it would be a good thing if one separate person or authority were established to look after the prisoners of war. I put a question down to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Sheffield (Mr. Hope) yesterday as to the prisoners in Turkey, as to whether our military authorities could get into direct contact with the Turkish military authorities, so as to effect exchanges between Jerusalem and Damascus. That question was transferred to the War Office. I asked it to-day, but when the question comes now to be discussed the hon. Member for Central Sheffield is left as the responsible Minister to answer inquiries. He will, of course, understand that the interests of our prisoners could not be put into more sympathetic hands, but it is noticeable that the questions are transferred from one Department to another, no particular Department accepting responsibility, the matter ultimately being left to be dealt with by my hon. Friend. The answer

    1495
    I got from the War Office was that my proposal had been referred to General Allenby, and he had replied that it was an impossible one. But it must be remembered that this proposal was made last December, and it is now August; and a very great deal has happened between last December and now.
    If we really are earnest and energetic in this matter, we might surely begin again to see whether the new conditions which have arisen since last December might not open the door, and that we could then push it still further open. There is no doubt about it that the feeling between the Turks and the Germans is not nearly so friendly at the present time as it was last December. They are getting a bit tired of each other. It might be possible to utilise that feeling and perhaps make it work out, if we use the occasion wisely, to benefit the men whose cause we are now advocating. We used to idealise the Turk and consider he was an honest and chivalrous fighter. We made a mistake. A great deal of what they have done of recent times, especially to our prisoners, shows that we gave them a higher standard of character than they really deserved, though perhaps what they have done has been done under the influence of Germany. Now that German influence is less in Turkey we might avail ourselves of that fact. I understand that the treatment of officer prisoners in their camps is not altogether bad. The Turks are civil enough to them. But the conditions of our officers and men, and what they suffer, generally, is daily getting worse, and there is no doubt from the reports that come through that there have been cases of brutality. We have heard a great deal about the mystery ship which is supposed to sail between Alexandria and Turkish ports, and of its being prevented sailing because the Germans would not give us a free pass. If we could make arrangements to exchange man for man, or something of that sort, and, seeing we have some Germans and Turks in our hands, if we put them on the ship together with food and clothing, I think that would be a fair guarantee that the ship would get to its destination. I do not think the Turks, when the steamer arrived in Turkey, would attempt to pillage the cargo in view of the possibilities of retribution following on quickly. I am certain that if any British soldier had
    1496
    the chance of being put aboard that ship with the risk of being torpedoed, he would fact that risk rather than remain a prisoner in a Turkish camp.
    I fully back up what an hon. Member said a few moments ago that if we sit down and do nothing we shall presently have no prisoners at all to release. I most earnestly appeal to the hon. Gentleman who is to give a reply to this portion of the Debate. I ask him to use whatever influence he has with the Government to see that a little more activity is exercised in this matter. In respect to the Turks, surely the resources of diplomacy and finance still leave certain possibilities of negotiations, for there are many clever people in the East, and it may be a reasonable suggestion that if we supply the money, and if we offered a personal reward to an agent treating for the release of British soldiers, some good might be effected. I would ask the hon. Gentleman, when answering to consider whether, because General Allenby said last December he could not do anything, that that is any reason why he should not be asked to look into the matter now! I would also like to ask the hon. Gentleman, to whom I addressed three questions to-day on the subject of mercantile marine officers interned in Holland, to look carefully and immediately into this matter. These men are subject to great hardships. Their lot is not a satisfactory one. Allowances made to them are totalled up against them for repayment at a future date. They get no pay. They have faced the risks of the sea. They have wives and children in this country. I would ask that something should be done to mitigate the hardships of incarceration in view of the great domestic trouble and financial ruin that these men seem to have in front of them.
    Mr. HOPE: I want to allude to two matters which have been raised by the last speaker, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Sir C. Seely). I can give the last-named hon. Member the assurance he has asked for. With regard to the charges made upon our mercantile marine prisoners, this is primarily a matter for the Board of Trade, but I will make a special note of it. I have been asked questions about the cost of repatriation. I am glad to be able to tell him that at this moment the Treasury are considering the matter. It is a Treasury matter, which can only be dealt with in accordance with the Treasury Regulations,

    1497
    but I have an assurance from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he is having the question looked into, and it is being examined sympathetically at this moment. With regard to the question of the food supplied to prisoners interned in Holland, that is a matter which has given us great anxiety for some time past. It is pitiable to think that when our brave men have got away from Germany, their material conditions should be in any way worsened. The matter has been urgently pressed on the Dutch Government, and a definite proposal has now been made which will, I hope, put everything right. We have every reason to believe it will be accepted, and I am authorised to say that a special officer, who is expert in such matters as wholesale catering for soldiers, is being sent out. I believe, grievous as this matter has been, it will be put right almost immediately. That, at any rate, is my hope.
    With regard to Turkey, the question of an extended Turkish exchange has been pressed on the Government for some weeks, but I think I was right when I said on a previous occasion that until our negotiators have returned from The Hague it would be useless to attempt to deal with the question further, as we did not know what shape The Hague negotiations might take, and, secondly, because the negotiators were experts in dealing with these questions with enemy Powers, and it was unreasonable to start negotiations until they were free to give attention to the matter. As far as the Prisoners of War Department are concerned, I may say at once they have already formulated proposals for extending the exchanges of prisoners with Turkey and Bulgaria, and these proposals are now before other Departments of the Government. They are being considered, and as far as the Prisoners of War Department is concerned the active steps asked for have already been taken.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will there be a conference with these Powers on the subject?
    Mr. HOPE: That is a matter of procedure on which obviously I cannot express an opinion at this moment. I think it is extremely probable that, in regard to these Powers, no formal conference may be necessary at all. As regards the present guarantee with Turkey, the agreement on paper is most satisfactory as far
    1498
    as it goes, and the machinery for carrying it out has been thoroughly thought out. If a general exchange were agreed upon to-morrow the machinery for carrying it out is already there. A ship has been arranged for, and all the necessary arrangements made. But I am afraid there are difficulties with Turkey not merely as to means of communication or as to whether the exchange shall be by land or sea. I fear the decision does not depend upon the one method being more convenient than the other. As far as the agreement on paper goes, I do not think there is anything to find fault with, but whether it be owing to some sinister influence or other forces which may be at work, there is difficulty in carrying out the existing agreement, and it makes me a little doubtful as to the success of any wider proposal. Knowing what I do, I cannot be very sanguine of the success of any wider proposals, although that is no reason why they should not be put forward. At any rate, as regards the Prisoners of War Department, we have done all we could in that direction. It has been suggested that the failure has been due to our not having employed experts for the negotiations. But it is quite a mistake to suppose that experts in Turkish ways were not employed. Two gentlemen who took an active part in the negotiations were certainly experts, and it was very largely due to their knowledge that the agreement was come to. We are asked to try other means. When I invited suggestions the other day as to any possible steps to be taken, I received only one which had not already been before us, and that is being explored and followed up at the present moment. More I cannot say. We are more than anxious to receive and explore suggestions which may offer any chance of being helpful to the prisoners.
    But in the meantime the burning question of providing for these prisoners of war next winter has to be considered. Whatever may be the result of our present efforts, we cannot overlook the possibility that they may fail. We are doing all that can be done in the way of pressing forward the supply of food and clothing for them. In case the exchange goes on we have accumulated four months' supply of food at Alexandria, and there will also be complete sets of clothing and blankets for every man to go with that food. In case that fails we have

    1499
    alternative supplies to go viâ Switzerland. The difficulty hitherto as regards overland transit has lain with the Austrian Government, but that has been removed and we are arranging to send not only complete supplies for our prisoners, but we are taking steps to ensure that there shall be no further delay.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will it not be looted on the way by the Austrians?
    Mr. HOPE: I do not think so, but obviously we must try this method, and if we do not send an escort of course there would be no security. In these matters we must do our best. We have two plans, one shipping from Alexandria and the other transport through Europe. At any rate we have done all that seems to us physically possible, and all that has been suggested. We have arranged in case these consignments fail that the Dutch Minister at Constantinople shall have power to order if he can a supplementary supply, so that is another string to our bow.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Are we to understand that the arrangement with the Austrian Government is complete or only in course of arrangement?
    Mr. HOPE: I cannot say it is complete, but the Austrian Government have agreed to allow supplies for our prisoners to go through to Turkey. Of course, in these matters we must depend on the good offices of the Dutch Minister, and here I should like to acknowledge the great part that before the entry of the United States into the War, was played by the American Ambassador there, and I wish to state how much we regret that his services are no longer available to us. I have no reason to suppose that the authorities of the Ottoman Government will not do their best in this matter. They have men specially charged with this particular work, and it will be their duty to see when the supplies get to Constantinople that they are sent over to the Asia side, and forwarded to the various prisoners camps.
    With regard to the question of money for our prisoners in Turkey we have devised a new arrangement to meet their wants which I cannot explain now, but I shall be glad to explain to any hon. Member who would like to approach me on this subject. As to the actual condition
    1500
    of our prisoners in Turkey undoubtedly there has been a great improvement in the mortality. I have had figures of the deaths of all ranks in camp during the last year and for the first six months of this year. In January last year the number was 91, and in January this year 10; in February last year 85 deaths, February this year 11; in March last year 46 deaths, March this year 7; in April last year 63, April this year 7; in May last year 68, in May this year 1; in June last year 23, and in June this year 1. Of course, all these figures are not absolutely vouched for, but they are the best we have been able to get, and they do show a very marked improvement. I do not want to insist too much upon this, because I do not wish to minimise the sufferings of our prisoners, but I think it necessary to say that there has been this improvement, for the sake of the relatives of the prisoners.
    I may add that the figure which an hon. Member gave the other day as to there being a mortality of 50 per cent. among the prisoners is not borne out by our information. I have not the figures about certain battalions which have been mentioned, but the information in my possession does not come to anything like that figure. The known deaths are about 20 per cent., and if you add those that are not traced you may get as high as 40 per cent.; but we have very good reason to suppose that a great many of those returned as untraced have never been brought into the prisoners' camps at all, but are working on the Bagdad railway, and we have some reason to believe that they are better off, if only because the German contractors find it to their interest to keep their men in a decent physical condition. I do not deny that there is a very serious problem to face in the future, or that we should not try to improve the position, but the statement that 50 per cent. have died is not in accordance with any of the facts we have been able to get.
    With regard to the general administration of prisoners' questions, of course, that is a matter upon which I cannot speak with any authority. I do not think you will solve the difficulty by creating a new Ministry, for you would require new buildings and a large staff; but, even if you got over those difficulties, there is the further difficulty that questions affecting prisoners necessarily concern a large number of Departments and they could not all be embodied in one Ministry. The exchange question,

    1501
    for example, is largely a matter of transport, and in this the Admiralty is concerned. Then various questions as to pursuing a policy in common with our Allies arise where obviously the War Office and the Foreign Office must come in. Therefore, even if you did create a special Ministry you would still have to deal with these other Ministries. Undoubtedly, there have been great delays in consequence of the number of Departments concerned, but I do know that the Government as a whole are seeking to find a remedy. Personally, I think that one can be found, though possibly it will not be a complete remedy. I know, however, that the Cabinet are considering the question, and I do believe that a solution can be found which will at any rate very much hasten and quicken up the settling of these questions which are so vital to the unfortunate prisoners whose sufferings are always before our minds.
    Captain SHEEHAN: We have listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. There is nobody in this House who does not wish to see the utmost effort made to lessen the sufferings entailed by this War. We are grateful for any manifestation of anxiety to improve the conditions of our prisoners of War, especially when it comes from one who has shown such praiseworthy zeal in the matter, and we should all like to see him move a little higher up. To-day I put a series of questions to the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and I regard—and, I think, rightly regard—the replies which I received as unsatisfactory and insufficient. I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman is uniformly courteous and desirous of giving the utmost information in his power and of according fair treatment to all parties. I cannot hope at this stage of the Session to continue a persistent course of questions or an enforcement of my view, but if to-night I establish a case for reasonable inquiry I trust that the right hon. Gentleman, with his usual courtesy and sense of fairness, will give the matter which I raise that amount of attention and personal regard which I believe it deserves. In the course of three questions to-day I raised practically the whole matter of the Infantry equipment of our Army serving in the field since 1914. It concerns a question of administration, a question of payment to a large contracting firm, and a question of the treatment of an individual
    1502
    officer in the Army. Personally, I regard the question of the treatment of an individual officer as important as any other question involved, because if you are to have loyal service and good work and if you are to stimulate the inventive genius of those men who are going to serve the State, the least you can do is to give them due and suitable reward when their merits are established. The Infantry equipment in its later and most modern aspect was designed originally in 1903 by Major (now Colonel) Burrowes, of the Royal Irish Fusiliers. He placed his ideas, as he was bound to do, absolutely at the disposal of the War Office. He was in active service at the time, and he had no option in the matter, for every officer and soldier who is serving has to place any inventive genius that he has absolutely at the disposal of the War Office, and, subject to whatever reward may be made by those in authority, his design becomes the absolute property of the War Office. The right hon. Gentleman referred me to the reply to a question which he gave to the hon. Member for East Leeds (Mr. O'Grady) on 4th July, 1916. He admitted in that reply that the design of Colonel Burrowes was adopted by the War Office as the most suitable, and he added:
    "It could only be satisfactorily carried out in web material by employing a special weaving process belonging to the Mills Equipment Company."
    It is an extraordinary thing that the Mills Equipment Company, I think, five years later took out a patent for the design of Major Burrowes, but they never mentioned in that patent the special weaving process which belonged to them alone. Then the hon. Gentleman stated:
    "Colonel Burrowes was allowed to enter into arrangements with the Mills Equipment Company under which he was remunerated by them in return for the right to use his design."
    There has never been any question raised by the War Office of the Mills Equipment Company having designed this equipment themselves. They admitted that it was Colonel Burrowes who designed it, and they admitted also that Colonel Burrowes was allowed to enter into personal relationship with the Mills Equipment Company for its use. They stated:
    "The royalties payable to this firm are partly in respect of Colonel Burrowes' design and partly in respect of their special weaving process."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1916, col. 1363, Vol. 83.]

    1503
    The royalties, if payable at all, are payable in respect of Burrowes' design, because if the right hon. Gentleman will study the terms of the patent, he will find that the special weaving process is never mentioned. I would draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the Patent Laws provide that unless the name of the real and first inventor is given the patent is void. The Mills Equipment Company for one reason or another, when they sought a patent for the design of Colonel Burrowes, never used his name in connection with it. Therefore, the patent is not in accordance with the Patent Laws, and they have no right of any sort or kind to royalties under it. That is incontestable. If the War Office authorities investigate the matter in the spirit in which I am bringing it before them, they will find the statements I have made are indisputable. Major Burrowes invented the design. The Mills Equipment Company took up his invention; they patented it, but never used his name, although we have the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman himself in July, 1916, that Major Burrowes, by reason of the fact that he was the original inventor, was allowed to enter into private pecuniary arrangements with this company. I asked to-day what was the nature of these arrangements, but I could not be told. I asked, further, what sums in royalties had been paid to the Mills Equipment Company in respect of their patent of 1908, and the right hon. Gentleman told me that he was not in a position to give this information, which involved much research. One can imagine that the amount of royalties paid to any company in respect of an invention would not be beyond the power of the Department to state.
    The fundamental fact is that the Mills Equipment Company have no right whatever to this patent or to the royalty they have been drawing for ten years. Furthermore, when it came to a question of evolving an Infantry equipment for our soldiers in 1914, it was found that the equipment which the Mills Company had been manufacturing was for many reasons, which I do not now develop, although I could do so, unsuitable. There was an officer named Major Honey, in the Army Ordnance Department, who gave many years of study and thought to the question of improving this equipment, bringing
    1504
    it up to date and making it suitable for modern requirements. Major Honey made a claim on the 13th August, 1915. It is a remarkable fact that it was previously admitted by the right hon. Gentleman that the whole of Major Honey's spare time was spent in trying to design a new equipment. He gave the following reasons in his claim: First, to overcome serious defects that were coming to notice in the 1908 equipment; secondly, to produce an Infantry equipment that would not infringe the patent rights of the Mills Equipment Company, and so enable the War Office to secure competitive tenders from numerous competitors instead of their mainly being confined to two companies, the Mills Equipment Company and Messrs. Wright and Sons. Although the right hon. Gentleman stated in his reply of 1916 that there was only one company who had a special process for manufacturing web equipment, in fact there were two others who could do it equally well, one being Wright and Sons, who were Government contractors. Major Honey added:
    "The success of the efforts I have made have been strikingly illustrated during the last twelve months as over ninety firms supplied the War Office alone….with 1914 equipment."
    10.0 P.M.
    It is obvious that if the manufacture of equipment for the Infantry were confined to one or two firms it would be impossible to turn out the quantity of sets of equipments required. Owing to the efforts of this officer, who was serving at the time in the Ordnance Department, it was found possible to distribute a new, improved, and entirely original equipment, and to give the manufacture of that to no less than ninety firms. The equipment was so simple that no preliminary tests were required, and the orders were given. If this equipment had not been available when war broke out, we should have been in the position that we should have been in the hands of this one company for the supply of the sets of equipment required. I submit that the officer who was able, in that position of emergency, to come to the service of the State, should at least have the tribute paid to him that his services should be rewarded by some suitable recognition. What actually happened? The Mills Equipment Company came along and although they only manufacture a very inconsiderable quantity of the new equipment—the right hon. Gentleman knows better than I do how much

    1505
    it is; I want to ascertain to-night, I have not been able to find out, but I am told it is very little—I am told that four million sets at least of new equipment have been issued since 1914 of the new patent and that the Mills Equipment Company, although they have not manufactured them, have claimed and secured a royalty amounting to £250,000. That is the point I want to have cleared up. I want to know why this firm, who, as I contend, have no right to the patent whatever, should have secured a royalty of this kind without a full investigation of their credentials and of their right. I am told that Major Honey took to the War Office all the facts and asked for an investigation. He is an equipment expert. I may say in passing that I knew this officer for many years before the War broke out. He was a personal friend of mine, and I feel I am only discharging a duty to him in trying to secure that his efforts in this matter shall be fairly and equitably recognised. I know that there is not a matter in regard to equipment which he does not thoroughly understand. To prove that his claim was supported by his own immediate authorities, I can quote from Colonel Wortham, his commanding officer, who in sending forward his claim said:
    "Major Honey worked on this equipment during the time that he and General Butcher were C.I.E.S. He spent much time on the subject and I understand that it was due to his efforts that the present equipment was evolved."
    Brigadier-General Butcher, reporting on it, says:
    "It is within my personal knowledge that the production of this web equipment was due to Major Honey's efforts as stated by him. He has devoted himself in his leisure time to solving a most difficult problem."
    Nothing could be clearer than that. His own colonel and brigadier-general have both testified to the fact that the 1914 equipment is due to Major Honey. What happened? Was there any recognition of his work? It conflicted with the claims of the Mills Equipment Company for a royalty. The Mills Equipment Company got their royalty and Major Honey has got his retirement after forty years' honourable service as a ranker and officer in the Army. On another occasion I will possibly develop the circumstances of his retirement. For the moment the larger issue is the one upon which I would rather dwell. That is, that without investigation, without inquiry, without any heed being paid to the representations of those who knew the facts
    1506
    that the 1914 equipment was no infringement of any previous patent, and certainly not an infringement of any patent to which they have any right, they have been given a royalty all the time since then. When the hon. Member (Mr. O'Grady) raised this question the hon. Gentleman made certain representations to me. I am in a position to give the reply of the hon. Member (Mr. O'Grady). He said, amongst other things—this was written to the hon. Gentleman, and he will have it in his file:
    "I have been supplied with certain information regarding the company, and the fact is that the design submitted by an officer on the active list of the War Office has been handed over to a private firm which is now receiving great financial advantage therefrom."
    A quarter of a million of money in royalties for a thing they do not manufacture themselves is a very considerable financial advantage:
    "I am not concerned about what Colonel Burrowes has received."
    Neither am I. Colonel Burrowes designed the equipment, and he was entitled to remuneration. What I say is that the War Office should have made remuneration, whatever was fair and reasonable, to Major Burrowes, and should not hand over the manufacture of this equipment and the design to a private manufacturing firm:
    "You state that the Burrowes' design could only be satisfactorily carried out in web material by a special weaving process belonging to the Mills Equipment Company. It is a fact that other firms supply the same article at present—Hepburn, Dale and Ross, and Wright and Sons."
    Does that mean that other firms are supplying a special weaving process or are they doing it without it? They have been doing it without it. The other firms which have supplied them have been doing it without it. But the one firm which is drawing a royalty on the whole thing is the Mills Equipment Company. Is that going to continue without inquiry or investigation of any sort? I hope the hon. Gentleman will make further inquiry into this matter and will give Major Honey, who has been, in my view, unfairly treated, an opportunity of establishing his right, if he has one. If he has no right, I shall not press the matter in the least degree on his behalf. If he is able to prove to any independent Court of Inquiry that he did really, as his Colonel and Brigadier-General testify, evolve the 1914 patent equipment, I claim fair treatment for him, and I ask that

    1507
    the royalty shall not be paid to the Mills Equipment Company for a design to which they have no claim in the world.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): I was very sorry at Question Time this afternoon that I was not able to give a detailed reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He hardly realises what an immense amount of information was called for in the series of questions which he addressed to me. I looked into it myself this morning, and I found that in the forty lines of print in which his series of questions were expressed there were no fewer than twenty separate questions. In a matter of this kind one has to be careful to ascertain the facts precisely. The question is one of great importance, involving intricate questions of Patent Law and matters upon which a layman like myself is naturally unable to give judgment. The officials of my Department gave me clear proof that it was impossible in the time at their disposal really to frame a full and satisfactory answer. Under ordinary circumstances I should have communicated with the hon. and gallant Gentleman and asked him to postpone the question to some later date, but I realise that the end of the Session is at hand. I threw myself upon his mercy, and I have no reason whatever to complain that he has brought the matter up now. I do not think anyone realises what the pressure of work in the War Office is at present. Our staff has been combed out very drastically, and during the past six weeks we have had a very strenuous committee we have had a very strenuous Committee questions involving the examination of a large number of old files and involving many points of detail are to be put down, we shall be compelled to ask for a longer measure of notice. It is really impossible
    1508
    for us to deal with them in the time at our disposal with the staff we can command. I am not in a position to deal seriatim with the points which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has raised. Major Honey's claim to a patent was investigated.
    Captain SHEEHAN: Not a claim to a patent, but to the design of the 1914 equipment.
    Mr. FORSTER: I have made frank acknowledgment that I am not in a position to go into the details of the matter. I will make it my business to go into it in the near future, and I hope I shall find, as the result of detailed investigation, that the situation is not so alarming as the hon. and gallant Gentleman appears to regard it.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

  BURGHS GAS SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Fifteen minutes after Ten o'clock, till noon to-morrow, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.

WAR.
  CASUALTIES (TOTALS).
  CASUALTIES (TOTALS).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (WAR SERVICES).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (WAR SERVICES).
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS, UNITED STATES.
  CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS, UNITED STATES.
  RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS (PENSIONS).
  RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS (PENSIONS).
  WOOL PRICES.
  WOOL PRICES.
  WAR AIMS COMMITTEE (EXPENDITURE).
  WAR AIMS COMMITTEE (EXPENDITURE).
  FOOD SUPPLIES.
    BEER FOR HARVESTERS.
    BEER FOR HARVESTERS.
    EGGS.
    EGGS.
    CHEESE.
    CHEESE.
    FRUIT
    FRUIT
    IRISH GAME.
    IRISH GAME.
  IRELAND.
    MULLINGAR ASYLUM (COAL CONTRACT).
    MULLINGAR ASYLUM (COAL CONTRACT).
    FLAX CULTIVATION.
    FLAX CULTIVATION.
    RECRUITING.
    RECRUITING.
    HOUSING.
    HOUSING.
    DUBLIN REBUILDING.
    DUBLIN REBUILDING.
    DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.
    DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.
    GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND ACT, 1914.
    GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND ACT, 1914.
    TEMPLEMORE FARMERS (GUN PERMITS).
    TEMPLEMORE FARMERS (GUN PERMITS).
    NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS.
    NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS.
    PENSIONS COMMITTEE, LONGFORD.
    PENSIONS COMMITTEE, LONGFORD.
    POSTAL APPOINTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
    POSTAL APPOINTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (NAVAL APPOINTMENTS).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (NAVAL APPOINTMENTS).
  ARMY OFFICERS (OVERSEAS SERVICE).
  ARMY OFFICERS (OVERSEAS SERVICE).
  IRISH GUARDS (PRIVATE CARBERRY).
  IRISH GUARDS (PRIVATE CARBERRY).
  SOLDIERS' LEAVE.
  SOLDIERS' LEAVE.
  CANADIAN FORCES (IRISHMEN).
  CANADIAN FORCES (IRISHMEN).
  DEPUTY MINISTER OF MUNITIONS.
  DEPUTY MINISTER OF MUNITIONS.
  MILITARY SERVICE.
    CASE UNDER INQUIRY.
    CASE UNDER INQUIRY.
    MEDICAL GRADING.
    MEDICAL GRADING.
    COFFIN MAKER, BLACKBURN.
    COFFIN MAKER, BLACKBURN.
    CALLING-UP NOTICE (GRADE 3 MEN).
    CALLING-UP NOTICE (GRADE 3 MEN).
    IRISH TRADERS.
    IRISH TRADERS.
    CIVIL SERVANTS.
    CIVIL SERVANTS.
    SUGAR COMMISSION OFFICIALS.
    SUGAR COMMISSION OFFICIALS.
    HESTON AND ISLEWORTH TRIBUNAL.
    HESTON AND ISLEWORTH TRIBUNAL.
    CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
    CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
    MINERS.
    MINERS.
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (ARMY APPOINTMENTS).
  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (ARMY APPOINTMENTS).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE.
    UNIFORM.
    UNIFORM.
    AIR MINISTRY OFFICIAL.
    AIR MINISTRY OFFICIAL.
    WOMEN'S ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS).
    WOMEN'S ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS).
  NORMAN-THOMPSON FLIGHT COMPANY.
  NORMAN-THOMPSON FLIGHT COMPANY.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (APPOINTMENTS OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (APPOINTMENTS OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  LUNATIC SOLDIERS (ASYLUM TREATMENT).
  LUNATIC SOLDIERS (ASYLUM TREATMENT).
  DECEASED SOLDIERS' MOTHERLESS CHILDREN.
  DECEASED SOLDIERS' MOTHERLESS CHILDREN.
  DATCHET HOUSING SOCIETY (RENTS).
  DATCHET HOUSING SOCIETY (RENTS).
  BASTARDY LAW.
  BASTARDY LAW.
  WAR CHARITIES.
  WAR CHARITIES.
  ALIENS.
    ARMY CLOTHING WORKERS.
    ARMY CLOTHING WORKERS.
    BRITISH SHIPS (OFFICERS).
    BRITISH SHIPS (OFFICERS).
    KELLNER-PARTINGTON COMPANY.
    KELLNER-PARTINGTON COMPANY.
    GOVERNMENT EMPLOYMENT.
    GOVERNMENT EMPLOYMENT.
  FUEL AND LIGHTING ORDER.
  FUEL AND LIGHTING ORDER.
  PAPER SUPPLIES.
    GENERAL ELECTION.
    GENERAL ELECTION.
    TENDER FORMS.
    TENDER FORMS.
  ARIGNA MINERS (PAY).
  ARIGNA MINERS (PAY).
  BLOCKADE POLICY.
  BLOCKADE POLICY.
  LABOUR DISPUTE, SHEFFIELD.
  LABOUR DISPUTE, SHEFFIELD.
  REQUISITIONED STEAMERS (HIRE MONEY).
  REQUISITIONED STEAMERS (HIRE MONEY).
  TRAVELLING POST OFFICES (ALLOWANCES).
  TRAVELLING POST OFFICES (ALLOWANCES).
  DISMISSED POSTAL SERVANT.
  DISMISSED POSTAL SERVANT.
  PRISONERS OF WAR.
    MERCANTILE MARINE OFFICERS, HOLLAND.
    MERCANTILE MARINE OFFICERS, HOLLAND.
    AACHEN COMMISSION.
    AACHEN COMMISSION.
    REPATRIATED CIVILIANS (CHARGES).
    REPATRIATED CIVILIANS (CHARGES).
    MERCANTILE MARINE APPRENTICES.
    MERCANTILE MARINE APPRENTICES.
    ARRANGEMENTS WITH TURKEY.
    ARRANGEMENTS WITH TURKEY.
  SOLWAY SALMON FISHING.
  SOLWAY SALMON FISHING.
  JURORS, GLASGOW (SPECIAL CONSTABLES).
  JURORS, GLASGOW (SPECIAL CONSTABLES).
  School Children (Punishment).
  School Children (Punishment).
  Prisons, Scotland.
  Prisons, Scotland.
  School Children (Inoculation).
  School Children (Inoculation).
  Intermediate Education, Wales.
  Intermediate Education, Wales.
  Prison Regulations.
  Prison Regulations.
Preamble
The Earl of ELGIN AND KINCARDINE—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, this is the usual Motion before an adjournment. I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing Petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, also the time for depositing Documents relating to any Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Autumn Recess.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EDUCATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
BRITISH NATIONALITY AND STATUS OF ALIENS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
ASYLUMS OFFICERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
TRADE BOARDS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

INCOME TAX BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD FINLAY): My Lords, I beg to move that these Amendments be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move that the Commons Amendments be agreed to. They simply carry out the recommendation made by the Joint Committee to whom the Income Tax Bill was referred. That recommendation was this, that effect should be given in the form of the Bill itself to what is the fair result of a decision of this House with regard to the meaning of the word "person" as applied to the section relating to a right to abatement of Income Tax. The Amendments are embodied in the Report in Appendix II as set out there in terms. In the Report itself the reason for the Amendments is explained at length, and also the reasons which led the Committee, instead of making the Amendments themselves, to leave them to the Commons to make, whilst suggesting the form that the Amendments should take. I submit to your Lordships that the recommendation of the Committee was right, and that the Amendments are proper ones to be accepted by your Lordships.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ROTHESAY TRAMWAYS (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

ECONOMIC POLICY.
EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP rose to call attention to the speech of the Secretary of State for the Colonies announcing that His Majesty's Government has decided upon a Preferential scheme of trade within the Empire; and to move for Papers.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, it will not be necessary, I hope, to detain your Lordships at any great length this afternoon in considering this question. My object is not so much to initiate a debate as to try and elicit some information, if it is possible to get it, and, if necessary, to register a protest. My first criticism must be directed to the method in which the announcement was launched upon the country. Here is a matter which has been the subject of discussion between two political parties for fifteen years. It has actually divided people in this country;

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it has frequently been made a matter of discussion both in this House, and in another place. I venture to think that Parliament is the proper place in which the announcement should first have been made; instead of which the Secretary of State for the Colonies, at a casual luncheon somewhere in the City, made a reference to this, and the matter was so ill-understood by the people of this country that since then there has been more than one explanation issued on behalf of the Secretary of State for the Colonies to try and explain what exactly was meant. And, my Lords, even now we would like to know, if possible, exactly what this Resolution is. I should like to have the terms of the Resolution, to know whether they are the same as the terms of the Resolution which was passed last year on a similar occasion by the Imperial War Conference, or whether this is something new.
Sir Robert Borden spoke the other day and threw a good deal of light upon the question. He said that neither the Imperial War Cabinet nor the Imperial War Conference has had under consideration this year the question of Preference. "The, recent announcement on that subject," he said, "was made on behalf of the British Government as a statement of the domestic policy of the United Kingdom; and as Canada claims and exercises the right absolutely to control her own fiscal policy, so the representatives of our Dominion necessarily refrain from attempting any interference in the fiscal policy of the United Kingdom." That was a welcome declaration on the part of Sir Robert Borden, directed, I cannot help thinking, not only to the people of this country, but also to his colleague Mr. Hughes. For Mr. Hughes has been busy making a series of speeches upon this question, which I do not think anybody could refrain from describing as partisan. It puts us all in a position of very considerable difficulty. If Mr. Hughes forgets that he is the guest of this country we are most unwilling to forget it. Therefore I should wish to abstain from any word of criticism of what has been said by Mr. Hughes, but I should like to hear from His Majesty's Government—if they can tell us—whether, when he makes speeches of this partisan character, Mr. Hughes is speaking in his capacity as a member of the Imperial War Cabinet, or of the Imperial War Conference, or as Prime Minister of Australia, or merely as a private individual. I cannot help feeling
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that the same success is likely to attend his efforts to convert the people of this country to Protection as attended his efforts to convert the people of Australia to Conscription. Certainly if anybody had been in Australia last year and had made speeches on that subject on the lines of those which have been made by Mr. Hughes this year, he would have heard a great deal about it in very strong language from no less a person than Mr. Hughes himself.
I think there is yet another point of fair criticism. His Majesty's Government is a Government for conducting the war. As I understand—and I hope I am right in saying so—this is a policy which is not to be carried out during the war, but is only to be adopted when the war is over; and this Government, unless it is in office at that time, is under no pledge, and no Government is pledged, to carry it out. Now, my Lords, even if the noble Earl is able to give us the terms of the Resolution, I confess that we shall wish to know something more about it. The more we are told the better we shall be pleased. Resolutions are often used not only to expose a situation but very often to conceal thoughts and also actions. We have an example only lately in a cognate question of the Paris Economic Conference. On that occasion Resolutions were passed which some of your Lordships welcome as going as far as they wish to go in the direction of Tariff Reform; whereas others, and not the least my noble friend the noble Marquess who leads the Opposition in this House, would say that those who took part in that Conference certainly thought that those Resolutions had no such import at all. Therefore it will be necessary for us, when we have the terms of Resolutions, to examine them with a good deal of care.
There are two way in which a Preferential Duty may be imposed—either by adding to the taxation which exists already, or else by subtracting something from duties which already exist. I have understood from one of the communications which have been made in the papers that His Majesty's Government do not intend to put a tax on food. But there does remain, as a possibility, the alternative that existing duties may be reduced in the case of those articles which come to us from the Dominions or from the Colonies. That is an alternative policy, and it is

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one which is not excluded by anything that has so far appeared in explanation of this Resolution. I venture to think that there will be a special difficulty if that is the idea of His Majesty's Government, because after the discussion which took place in this House on Monday night it is quite clear that the Treasury will be most unwilling, and scarcely able, to forego any of the receipts which they have been accustomed to receive during the past few years. The money cannot be spared, and it will be difficult to convey in that way any Preference to the self-governing Dominions.
And, my Lords, this new method of preferential tariff does go in direct opposition to the old dictum of Mr. Chamberlain, that "if we were to give a preference to the Colonies we must put a tax upon food." We understand, as I said just now, that His Majesty's Government do not propose to impose any fresh taxation upon food which is now exempt from it. There remain, of course, other goods which might become subject to taxation—raw materials, timber, and wool. I do not think that there is anything which has yet been suggested which seems to indicate that raw materials, including timber and wool, are among the subjects that are to receive preferential tariffs under this Resolution.
I turn to the various articles that come into this country which might become the subjects of differential tariffs in this sense, that the imports which come to us from our self-governing Dominions might be subject to a lower rate of Import Duties than those which come to us from outside the Empire. If one examines the actual figures, it is difficult to see that any substantial relief can be given in the matter of tea. The Empire is almost self-supporting, with the exception of special tea which comes to us from China, and which probably no amount of duties would prevent people from drinking—it is drunk by a class of persons who would pay whatever the duty might be. Then there is sugar, tobacco, and coffee, of which the supplies from this Empire are wholly inadequate to meet the needs of the country, and which for a great many years to come must, as far as one can possibly foretell, come to us from places outside; the British Empire. Finally, there are various liquors, wines and spirits, on which, if we were to make any substantial difference to those goods of that class which come to us from the Colonies, the
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Excise would suffer so severely and the benefit to the Dominions would be so small, that I cannot think they are likely to be the main subject of taxation in this direction. Therefore, looking round, it seems to us very difficult to see what exactly is meant by the intentions of His Majesty's Government. We are very anxious to have the opportunity of seeing the Resolution and of examining it for ourselves, so as to try and find out what it really means.
Last year Sir Robert Borden, who had been present at the Imperial Conference here, made a speech when he returned to Canada in which he exposed the meaning of the new policy (as it was then) of the specially favourable treatment and facilities to the produce and manufactures of other parts of the Empire. I will venture to quote to your Lordships some extracts from what he said—
"I should say at once that this Resolution does not necessarily purpose, or even look to, any change in the fiscal arrangements of the United Kingdom. It does not involve taxation of food It does not involve taxation of anything. But what this proposal looks to, as I understand it, is this—that we can within this Empire get better and cheaper facilities of communication than we have enjoyed up to the present time. That, I believe, is the line along which the change indicated will proceed. I hope and believe there will be concerted action and cooperation between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Governments of the Overseas Dominions, by which speedier, better, and more economical transportation will be provided between the Mother Country and the Overseas Dominions, and between the Overseas Dominions themselves."
This seems to foreshadow, if that is also the policy of His Majesty's Government, a policy of freight wars between this country and other countries who certainly are at the present time allied with us. That appears to me to open out a very dangerous future. After all, a freight war is a game at which two can play; and when we consider how very precarious is the merchant shipping industry in the future of this country, the immense extent to which America has been building and is building ships; the possibility that the Trident will pass from our hands to those of the United States of America—it seems to me that it will be very dangerous for this country to embark upon a war of freights in which we might so easily fail to secure victory. Any policy of this kind, though its immediate effect must all upon the people of this country, will also have a very much wider effect.
But it is not a merely local or domestic question. It is true that we believe that any taxation of this kind must raise the price of these various goods to the people of this country. Certainly if we are to enter upon an extensive freight war, this must be the result. But it is not only that the price will be raised to the people of this country at a time when food has already become so expensive that there are a great many complaints upon the subject, but it is that other interests will also suffer. We have yet to learn how it will be possible to make any scheme of this kind equitable; how, if food is not to be taxed, Australia and Canada and South Africa are to derive any benefit from the imposition of these duties. I should hope that it may be possible to hear from His Majesty's Government whether they have taken into consideration the question of India, and whether India is to be included and is to get some benefit at the same time as our self-governing Dominions; and, if so, it will be interesting to know in what direction India would gain.
Then there are also the interests of other people besides our own Empire to be considered. There are the interests of our present Allies. After all, you put on a preferential tariff in order to benefit somebody; then it is perfectly obvious that other people are going to get the worst of it. And, if we are to put on this tariff, in order to benefit the self-governing Dominions and the Colonies of the British Empire, it seems to me a most unfortunate moment to do it, when we ought to do all we possibly can to help that gallant little country Belgium, and not only Belgium, but also our Ally, France. It appears to me that it would be a most unfortunate thing if one of the first results of this war should be that we were to put on preferential duties in order to tax, and to some extent to impede, the trade of the nations of Belgium and France with this country.
There is yet another subject, one upon which I touch with some little reserve. For some time I have had on the Notice Paper of your Lordships' House a Question with regard to the most-favoured-nation treaties. I have postponed it at the request of the noble Earl, and I have been very glad to do so. But it is very difficult in connection with this matter not to refer to it, however briefly; and I hope that I may receive some assurance that this matter, and the effect of preferential duties upon
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this, has also received some attention from His Majesty's Government, and that it will receive more attention.
Finally, there is yet another, and, perhaps, the biggest interest of all to be considered—namely, how this question of preferential duties will affect the League of Nations. I will venture to quote to your Lordships one of the points made by President Wilson in his Congress Message on January 8 of this year. He said—
"…the removal so far as possible of all economic barriers, and the establishment of an equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the Peace and associating themselves for its maintenance."
We understand, from a speech which was made by the Prime Minister last week, that on the Paris Resolution America has expressed no opinion; and I imagine that she has expressed no opinion either upon this new determination of His Majesty's Government. I would press upon the noble Earl, and upon His Majesty's Government, the great importance that there is of acting in the very fullest possible co-operation with the United States of America in this matter as well as in all others; and express the hope that before anything is definitely determined upon, still more before anything is done, they will have secured the assent and the agreement of all our Allies. As I say, I hope that this matter in all its various aspects, and as affecting all these various interests, has already received the deep and serious attention of His Majesty's Government.
That being so, I feel sure that there are some Papers which have been drawn up in the various Departments dealing with the question. If that is so, those are the. Papers for which I wish to move this afternoon—Papers which will show the reasons which have guided His Majesty's Government in coming to the conclusion at which they have arrived, and which will enable us (the people of this country, who will be so vitally affected by this matter) to judge for ourselves as to whether we approve of the conclusions and of the reasons which have animated His Majesty's Government. I beg to move.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON): My Lords, my noble friend the Secretary of State for War had undertaken to reply to the noble Earl this afternoon, but having been unfortunately called away elsewhere on important business he has asked me at

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the last moment to take his place. In these circumstances your Lordship will, I am sure, pardon me if my reply to the important questions which have been put by the noble Earl is less full or less authoritative than that which would have emanated from my noble friend Lord Milner.
Through the earlier part of the remarks of the noble Earl there seemed to run an impression that some novel and rather startling declaration of policy had recently been made by the Government with regard to Imperial Preference, and reference was made to a speech by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which appeared to the noble Earl to justify that inference. That is not how I, at any rate, or the Government regard the matter. Resolutions as to Imperial Preference have played a part in the proceedings I believe, of almost every Imperial Conference for years. I have not had time to verify my references in this respect, but I should be greatly surprised if they did not figure in the proceedings of every Conference for at least a decade past, presided over sometimes by members of the Party to which the noble Earl belongs. The last occasion to which I need refer is one with which I am most familiar, because I happened to be in the Government at the time, and that is the case of the Imperial Conference last year.
Now let us see exactly what passed on that occasion. The proceedings of the Conference are, as your Lordships know, laid before Parliament, and indeed the noble Earl himself referred to the particular Resolution which I am about to read. This is the wording of the Resolution which the Conference unanimously passed on April 26, 1917—
"The time has arrived when all possible encouragement should be given to the development of Imperial resources and especially to making the Empire independent of other countries in respect of food supplies, raw materials, and essential industries. With these objects in view this Conference expresses itself in favour of—
"(1) The principle that each part of the Empire, having due regard to the interests of our Allies, shall give specially favourable treatment and facilities to the produce and manufactures of other parts of the Empire—"
I call attention to that remark with regard to the interests of our Allies, in view of the great stress which the noble Earl laid upon the importance of acting only in accordance with the interests of our Allies—
"(2) arrangements by which intending emigrants from the United Kingdom may be induced to settle in countries under the British Flag."
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It is stated there, and is indeed a matter of common knowledge, that that Resolution was also passed at the Imperial War Cabinet, and therefore had behind it the double authority of the Imperial Conference and of the Imperial War Cabinet, and the policy there announced stands as the policy of His Majesty's Government at the present day. No departure has been made from it, and, so far as I know, no expansion has been added to it.
In the course of last year a statement on the subject was made by the Prime Minister in a speech which he delivered in the Guildhall of London, when he received the Freedom of the City. I have not the exact date in my mind, but I was present on the occasion, and I have verified my recollection of the words that he used. Perhaps your Lordships will permit me to read them to the House. This is what the Prime Minister said—
"We have given grave consideration to this problem, and have decided that in order to develop these enormous territories in the future" [alluding, of course, to the wider area of the Empire] "it is necessary that exceptional encouragement should be given to the products of each part of the Empire. We believe that a system of Preference can be established which will not involve the imposition of burdens upon food. We believe that it can be done without that, and, of course, with food at its scarcest and at its dearest, this is not the time to talk about putting additional burdens on food. But for purposes of Preference that would not be essential. You can secure that, by other means, and more particularly by taking measures which other lands have taken for improving the communications between one part of their dominions and another. By these means the products of one country inside this great Imperial Commonwealth can be brought more freely, readily, and economically to the markets of the others."
Those sentiments are substantially identical with the quotation which the noble Earl read from the speeches of Sir Robert Borden in Canada and elsewhere.
Next we come to the proceedings of the present Secretary of State for the Colonies in a speech to which reference was made, alluding to the fact that he had been chairman of a Committee to advise the Cabinet as to the best method of carrying out this principle when the time should arrive—the principle being that where duties are in operation, or where new duties are imposed, in the United Kingdom, preference should be given in respect of those duties to the production of the Dominions and of the Colonies; and that principle, my Lords, the War Cabinet, acting in accordance with the previous history that I have described, affirmed.

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The noble Earl asked me more than once for the text of the Resolution or Resolutions. I am afraid I have no idea to what he referred. There is no Resolution or Resolutions. There was a decision of the War Cabinet. The Resolutions of the Imperial Conference are published annually, as a matter of course; and if the matter comes before the Imperial Conference on this occasion and it sees fit to reaffirm its declaration of last year, or substitute a new one, that will be made public. The noble Earl himself pointed out that Sir Robert Borden had somewhere or other stated that the question had not been specifically under discussion at this Imperial Conference. I believe that to be the case; not that it has been altogether excluded, because of course the Conference never meets without discussing economic matters, but no resolution, so far as I know, has yet been tabled, discussed, or passed. In the same way, the matter has not yet been before the Imperial War Cabinet this year. Obviously it is a subject that ought to be and will be discussed at the Imperial War Cabinet before the statesmen from our Dominions go back to their homes. No decision so far has been arrived at, except one, as the noble Earl himself pointed out, quoting Sir Robert Borden, which commits the views and action of His Majesty's Government at home.
The noble Earl laid great and becoming stress upon two considerations. In the first place, the importance of acting in complete concert with our Dominions in this matter; secondly, assuming their agreement—because His Majesty's Government have, as has been shown, come into line with the policy which they have advocated for years—to the even greater importance of acting in concert with our Allies. This is all the more necessary because, as he pointed out, some of these Allies—I think he mentioned Belgium—have suffered cruel injury from the ravages and shocks of war, and it is clear that no policy ought to be adopted by us without regard to those considerations and without prior conference and consultation with them.
He further alluded to the immense importance of carrying the United States with ourselves. That we all freely admit, and we may admit it not only on general grounds but because of its obvious impor-
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tance for the future. The fact will emerge that, at the end of the war, the British Empire and the Allied Nations in combination—if, as I hope, they remain in combination—will be masters of the greater part of the economic resources and raw materials of the world. If it is necessary at any time to use that weapon against the enemy it is quite obvious that it can only be used with advantage if there is agreement among those who wield it. Therefore it is that, in the other House of Parliament, my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has more than once, in reply to questions during the last few weeks, said that when Parliament re-assembles in the autumn it will be right and just that a full statement should be made to Parliament on this subject. Your Lordships would hardly expect that it should emanate from me in the closing hours of the present session in any circumstances; and still more, in view of the fact that there has not yet been time for that final discussion with our friends from the Dominions—and, even less, with the Allies—is it desirable to postpone the full announcement which has been promised until that collaboration has taken place. When that has happened in the autumn I can assure, the noble Earl that there will be no reluctance to give the House and the country full information on the subject which he has raised this afternoon.
Now, may I allude to one or two of the positions taken up by the noble Earl in his speech? He once again placed before us the old and familiar argument that Preference would be of no use to the Dominions unless food taxes were imposed. That is what the noble Earl himself says; but the remarkable thing is that it is not what is said by the Dominions themselves. It is certainly not what is said by their representatives when we discuss the matter with them here. They tell us that they will be only too glad to accept Preference in any form that may be decided upon as suitable. Surely, my Lords, Preference is not a question of tariffs only. Tariffs need not be the most important subject of Preference.
The noble Earl talked rather ominously about a freight war. Upon that no one would say that His Majesty's Government should embark; but as regards transport and shipping, I should have thought it by no means impossible to treat parts of the Empire better than we treat other people.

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And, even if it were a question of tariffs only—and I have been arguing that it is not—surely that does not mean that you need have food taxes. You can, of course, impose taxes on other materials. The noble Earl went at some little length into the question of the difficulty of so doing, and he analysed some of the raw materials and other objects which might be the subject of such Preference. He will not expect me this afternoon to follow him into that branch of the subject; but, speaking generally, I would reaffirm that all that the Dominions, so far as I understand, ask is that when you do impose taxes, if you decide to do it, you will give them Preference.
The noble Earl then alluded, in terms of criticism if not of disparagement, to the oratorical performances of Mr. Hughes. I think, if I may say so, that the noble Earl was a little too sensitive upon this point. When the statesmen from the Dominions come here it is quite true that they come primarily to discharge their functions as members of the Imperial Conference and the Imperial War Cabinet, but they also come—and, indeed, they are expected—to make speeches on almost every platform throughout the country. That, I believe, in their opinion is by far the hardest part of the ordeal which they have to undergo The fact remains that while they are here they are much more acceptable as speakers throughout the country than any of us are. Nobody asks a war Cabinet Minister to come and make a speech, but bring a Minister from the Dominions, and thousands assemble to hear him, wherever he is kind enough to speak.
Broadly speaking, these statesmen, it seems to me, do accept the theory that they are not here to interfere with the domestic policy of our Government, and I have not, in so far as I have followed the Speeches of Mr. Hughes, traced any unfair or improper desire to dictate to us as to what our politics ought to be. But I think there would be considerable danger in muzzling Mr. Hughes, or in muzzling any representative of the Dominions when he comes over here; and what I would suggest to my noble friend is this—that if he is dissatisfied with these performances, or if he thinks they transgress the bounds of decorum, he should himself enter into the field against Mr. Hughes. I am certain that many platforms could be found in the country which would be adorned by the presence of
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the noble Earl, and I cannot conceive a more interesting spectacle myself than a meeting addressed both by Mr. Hughes and the noble Earl. Anyhow, I think you would hardly expect me in this House to say more in defence of Mr. Hughes than that I believe, so far as I know, that he has not knowingly transgressed the very sound principle which the noble Earl has laid down.
The noble Earl asks me another question about "most-favoured-nation" treaties. With the general principle of the denunciation of treaties which contained "most-favoured-nation" clauses the Government has, in another place, expressed its agreement. More than once I recall that my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said—as, indeed, the noble Earl recognized—that the matter is one of the very greatest complexity, and he has promised a full statement upon the matter after the recess, which, if your Lordships desire, can, of course, be made also in your Lordships' House.
The last question to which the noble Earl referred was this. He seemed to be possessed by the idea that the adoption of a system of Preference would jeopardise the prospects of the institution of a League of Nations, to which he, in common with so many members of your Lordships' House, attaches such extreme importance. I listened to his argument, but I own I found some difficulty in following it. Why should it have that result? Does the noble Earl contend that nations cannot enter into a binding engagement for the maintenance of peace in the future—which is the object of a League of Nations—without pledging themselves to the mutual adoption of free imports? Is no nation to be admitted to a League of Nations unless it pledges itself either to have no tariffs, or not to differentiate in its tariffs between imports from its own possessions and those from foreign countries when they are members of the League? If the noble Earl takes that line I must confess that I think he is raising a new, an unnecessary, and what might, in the last resort, very likely turn out to be an insuperable, obstacle in the way of the realisation of a League of Nations. It is difficult enough in all circumstances. Do not let us go out of our way unnecessarily to increase those difficulties.
In the debates which we had a few weeks ago various ideas were expressed as to the composition of the League of Nations, and

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what nations should, or should not, belong to it. But one thing is absolutely certain. A League of Nations is wholly unthinkable that does not comprise France and the United States of America. Let me point out to the noble. Earl that both these countries are firm and unswerving adherents to the principle of Preference within their respective dominions, and, indeed, they carry it much further than it has ever been proposed that we should do in this country. Let me state what I mean. The United States differentiate strongly in favour of Cuba and the Philippines; France differentiates in favour of her great colonial empire. Are we going to decline to join France and the United States in a League of Nations unless they surrender their traditional and deeply-rooted convictions in this respect; and, on the other hand, is it contended that they will decline to join us because we have decided to adopt, perhaps rather late in the day, a system to which they have clung so tenaciously for so long. Therefore I venture to suggest that to mix up the question of Preference with that of a League of Nations is really to confuse the issue and to run the risk, which I am sure the noble Earl would be the last to wish to incur, of spoiling the chances of both.
I have now answered all the questions which my noble friend put to me, with the exception of the one about the production of Papers. For the reasons I have stated there are no Papers, to the best of my knowledge, which it would be possible at the present moment to lay; but when we have the fuller statement, which I have promised in the autumn, it will be open to the noble Earl or to any one else to ask that Papers should be laid in support of any declaration that may be made.
VISCOUNT CHAPLIN: My Lords, if I ask permission to intervene in the debate for a single moment it will only be because, in days gone by, I took a very prominent part in all the discussions with regard to fiscal and tariff reform which were, so common and so constant in those days. I listened with great satisfaction to the speech of the noble Earl the Leader of the House, and it confirmed the impression I had formed during the delivery of the speech which immediately preceded him, that this really was a somewhat inopportune time to have raised many of the questions which the noble Earl has raised.
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There is nothing in the speech of my noble friend opposite that more cordially appeals to me than what he said about Belgium, and in that I am sure your Lordships' House will unanimously concur. I do not agree in any respect with what fell from the noble Earl below the gangway with regard to Mr. Hughes. It has been my pleasure to make the acquaintance of Mr. Hughes, and I have heard him speak on more than one occasion. I am not in the least surprised at the popularity he has earned in speaking in different parts of the country whenever he has appeared on a public platform, and I am certain it indicates that, in the opinion of the British public, the views which he has advanced are not so unpopular as the noble Earl would have us believe.
I wish to say nothing further upon this point myself, but I should like, to add that whenever an opportune time arrives for the discussion of the question of Preference generally—and the time will come when we shall have to face the Herculean task of meeting our obligations when the war is over—I would utter just one word of warning with regard to that industry which is connected with the production of food. It is this, that if Preference is given to any other industry in this country the agricultural interest, which after the war will resume the position it always occupied before, as the largest, the most important, and greatest industry in the whole of the United Kingdom, will never consent to be left out in the cold.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I came down to the House feeling not a little regret that the necessity had been imposed, as I thought, upon my noble friend below the gangway, or upon some other noble Lord holding similar views to his, to raise this question at this moment. It undoubtedly appeared to me, as it also appeared to him, that this particular question of Imperial Preference had fallen into a new phase, and that it had received, definitely, a new impulse, from the speeches lately made by Mr. Long and Mr. Bonar Law, and that it was therefore almost imperative for my noble friend, or somebody else, to endeavour to elicit from His Majesty's Government the actual facts.
We have heard now from the noble Earl who leads the House that nothing has happened at all; that there has, in fact, been no advance made either by the War

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Cabinet or anybody else in the direction of Imperial Preference over and above what, according to the noble Earl, has been the view of the Imperial Conference for a great number of years past, even, as I gathered from him, before the war. I am not certain that I can accept the accuracy of that statement, but the noble Earl's explanations will disabuse a great number of people of the opinion which they have formed, as we had, from what has happened within the last few weeks. It certainly was formed at any rate by Sir Robert Borden. The noble Earl passed rather lightly, I thought, by Sir Robert Borden's speech, and it was not clear whether he had even seen it. But it was quite evident that Sir Robert Borden's speech was made with the deliberate purpose of removing the possible belief, which was beginning to enter the minds of a great number of persons, a system of Imperial Preference having been accepted, as we all believed, in a new form by the War Cabinet, and therefore liable to be proposed in Parliament at the earliest possible moment, presumably after the war, that the Dominions might be expected to agree to such a proposal very probably involving a tax on food, with regard to which Sir Robert Borden carefully guarded himself.
We are bound to remember, after all, that this is not a new question, although the circumstances are so new. We are sometimes told that the war has altered everything, and that, former beliefs and convictions may be held to be swept away by the altered circumstances. But the war has not altered a number of elementary facts. Two and two still make four, not five; and in whatever respects fiscal policy may be altered by circumstances and the needs of the day, it need not be assumed that people will change their minds about what they believe to be the fundamental troths upon which political economy is based.
I confess that even after the noble Earl's explanation I am not entirely clear in my own mind as to what the; actual position with regard to Imperial Preference is. There is no need to go back upon ancient history, when we all remember that the year before the war Imperial Preference was announced as the accepted policy of the then Opposition. They pledged themselves to bring it into operation as soon as possible if they were returned to power, as
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it always seemed possible they might be after another General Election, and the question of a tax upon food was left in a dubious state. The general position appeared to be that Imperial Preference would be instituted without a tax on food, but that, having got the principle assorted, efforts would then be made, in consultation with the Dominions, to pass on to the position of preferential duties upon food, on the ground, which, after all, is not ours but Mr. Joseph Chamberlain's, that for anything like a wide or effective system of Preference you must have at any rate a tax on food even if you do not desire to have one on raw materials.
The noble Earl tells us that now the Dominions would welcome the establishment of a system of Preference, even if in some case they might apparently get nothing by it at all. My impression is that, for instance, on the existing taxes New Zealand would get practically nothing out of a preferential tariff. We, of course, can take it from the noble Earl that the mere assertion of the principle is so valuable that it would be welcomed even without any material advantages whatever. But I confess I regret that it has been necessary to resuscitate this question at this moment, indeed on somewhat new lines, in spite of what has fallen from the noble Earl, and largely for the reasons which have been stated by my noble friend below the gangway. It seems to me altogether premature even to mention Colonial Preference, and certainly premature to put it, as it is now put, as the one fiscal change on which His Majesty's Government are determined, before it is possible to state what the general fiscal policy of the Government will be in respect of the war and the conditions arising out of the war.
I had the honour of being one of the representatives of His Majesty's Government at the Paris Conference, of which we have heard so much, in company with Mr. Bonar Law and Mr. Hughes. Nobody yet has finally decided or; behalf of the Allies what the future dealings either of this country or the other Allied countries will be in commercial matters with Germany, when any such dealings will commence, and how far they may be limited by the discretion of the countries concerned. And rightly, because these limitations must obviously play almost a primary part—certainly a very important part—in conducting negotiations for peace, and to

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discuss them at present would be altogether futile. Neither have the Allies so far been able to arrive at, or at any rate—if the various consultations which have, been going on have led to an agreement,—to announce, the various terms on which we shall be able to trade among ourselves during the transitional period after the war, or for the further period ahead.
The noble Earl mentioned Belgium, and the wrongs of Belgium, which we are pledged to right. Who can say what the necessity of righting the wrongs of Belgium may impose on us in relation to the question of Preference within the Empire? I am not at all prepared to say that this country would agree in many material matters to give worse terms to Belgium than to all countries within the Empire, and yet a system of Preference, blankly and uniformly adopted, would have that result. Then, again, the position as we examined it at the Paris Conference has been altered in the most material degree by the conversion of the United States from a neutral Power, as they then were, to an Allied power—a fact which of itself shows how wise we were in 1916 not to attempt at that time to formulate definite proposals. I cannot help feeling, therefore, that it is a misfortune that His Majesty's Ministers, sadly and painfully misunderstood as the noble Earl has endeavoured to show us, have somehow put themselves into a position where they have caused it to be supposed that this question of Imperial Preference is raised in the very front line of matters which have to be dealt with at as early a date as possible.
My noble friend, the noble Viscount behind me, who has just spoken, naturally is greatly rejoiced, because he has been all his life a most convinced champion of Protection in all its forms, and since I believe it to be the case that it is impossible to establish a system of Imperial Preference without a system of general Protection—of that I am entirely convinced, and challenge contradiction upon it—I naturally regard these proposals as part of a great whole. Holding, as I do, the views of one who believes that Free Trade for revenue should be the rule subject to certain exceptions, practically all of them concerned with national security in one form or another, I naturally take a different view from those who, like the noble Viscount behind me, believe that a protective
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system should be the rule, and that concessions should only be made to free imports in certain cases of necessity.
The noble Earl replied to complaints which were made by the noble Earl below the gangway regarding some of the speeches made by my right lion, friend Mr. Hughes. It undoubtedly has been conceived here that Mr. Hughes has somewhat overstepped the line in some of the speeches he has made in recommending action by Government on matters which are held to be of domestic rather than of Imperial concern—domestic concern in the same sense, as my noble friend pointed out, in which Australian conscripton is a domestic concern, although it is also in the highest degree an Imperial concern. I think this has to be remembered about Mr. Hughes in his discussion of fiscal matters. I do not conceive that he looks at them from the point of view either of a Protectionist or of a Free Trader; he looks at them simply from the point of view of an opponent of Germany. So far as I am able to judge, although I have no doubt he would express an opinion in favour of Imperial Preference, his prime desire is to found our system of Imperial trade on a rule that we should have no dealings with Germany, either immediately after the war, or indeed at any other time, so far as it is possible to look ahead. And holding that view as he does, his speeches on the subject are naturally highly coloured.
I have no desire to discuss the particular points of Imperial Preference—the limitations of taxes on food, the possibility of taxing some raw material, and the like; but I desire to say this, that if all that is meant by a system of Imperial Preference is a system of subsidised steam-shiplines for the benefit of the Dominions and Colonies and of nobody else, that may or may not be a right thing to do, but it is not Imperial Preference in the sense in which it is ordinarily understood. The phrase "Imperial Preference" has become a term of art meaning tariffs. As the noble Earl pointed out, there are some other respects in which Preference can be given to the Dominions or the Crown Colonies; but if tariffs are excluded from this new scheme, then I think the term loses some of its meaning to most people, and some of its charm to many people, such as my noble friend behind me.
As it is, I am glad that this debate has taken place. What my noble friend

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believed and what, a great many of us believed to be an important matter has been minimised and pared down to the smallest dimensions by the noble Earl, opposite. I suppose we are allowed now to go home and forget all about the matter. I hope we may assume that if speeches are made in the autumn the country will not be stumped in the interests of Imperial Preference, either from the Tariff Reform point of view or any other: that, in fact, the whole business has only come up by a pure accident and something of a misunderstanding, and that, being as we are all united in our devotion to the Empire, we can go home and feel that we are all perfectly agreed.
VISCOUNT CHAPLIN: I did not like to interrupt my noble friend, but I wish to say this, that when he described me as the champion of Protection in all its forms, that his never been my view or the policy that I should wish to pursue. I have been, on the other hand, a determined opponent, from the first time that I took part in politics, of a system which was wrongly called free Trade, for I have never yet learnt and I do not know to-day of any leading country in the world with which our trade is free.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am sure my noble friend knows that I have no indention of misrepresenting his views, which I hope are well known to the world.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I do not think the occasion has come for a full-dress debate on the subject of Free Trade and Tariff Reform, but, after such a speech as that to which we have just listened from my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, it is quite impossible for those who hold my views and those of the Party which I represent to keep their silence, because such a speech is the more noteworthy, coming as it does immediately after the speech of the noble Earl below the gangway and after the references to this subject of Lord Emmott in the debate yesterday.
As I understand my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, he and his friends of the Liberal Party adhere absolutely and without qualification to the doctrines of Free Trade which they held before the war, and they think that any proposals for Preference within the. Empire are premature. To us that is a most amazing
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confession. We believe the experience of the war to have shown that the Free Trade system, as pursued and believed in by the Liberal Party before the war, is incompatible with national safety. I put it no lower than that—incompatible with national safety. And to secure national safety the qualifications and reservations would have to be so numerous and so large as absolutely to destroy that system, in the belief of which the Liberal Party have flourished for so many years.
As for saying that it is premature to consider whether there should be Preference within the Empire with our Dominions, our Colonies, and India, that language almost seemed to us strained and unintelligible in the days of Imperial Conferences before the war; but when such language is used to-day, after the way Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and the other parts of the Empire, have stood by us in this war, and seeing that they still ask for that Preference which was consistently refused them before the war, I take the earliest opportunity of dissociating myself entirely from the view expressed by the noble Marquess. Nor do I think that he gave an accurate account of what my noble friend the Leader of this House said. What my noble friend said was that no fresh decision in respect to Preference had been taken this year; but the Resolution which he read out to us from the proceedings of the Imperial war Cabinet of last year, and the Imperial Conference of last year, surely mark a completely fresh departure in the history of this matter. It is quite true that time and again this subject his been brought up at Imperial C inferences, and we know the attitude which the Government, of which my noble friend was an ornament, always adopted towards those Resolutions when brought forward by Sir Joseph Ward, or some other Colonial statesman. But, according to my recollection and understanding of the position, for the first time last year His Majesty's Ministers in this country joined with His Majesty's Ministers from the Dominions in asseverating the necessity for that policy, and passed Resolutions in the Conference and in the War Cabinet to which His Majesty's Government here in the United Kingdom was just as much a partner as His Majesty's Government in the Dominions over the seas. Therefore, while it is quite true that no fresh departure has been made this year, a very fresh departure was made last

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year, and one which will mark the turning of public opinion. Because I do not mind prophesying here that my noble friends the Liberals are absolutely out of touch with national feeling if they think that the nation, Liberal or Conservative, is any longer reluctant to accept the principle of Preference with our brethren beyond the seas, or that at the next General Election you will not, whatever Party is returned to power, have an almost unanimous national vote for doing all that is in our power to assert that doctrine of Preference.
Nor is the noble Marquess behind me justified in whittling down my noble friend's statement about the nature of Preference. My noble, friend did not say that communications and transport were the only forms of Preference. He said that tariffs were not the only forms of Preference, and that there were, in addition to this, means of assistance through transport and communication. That is a totally different statement from the one which the noble Marquess tried to fasten on my noble friend. I do not want to go further into this matter to-day, but I could not possibly lot that speech pass without making my protest.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I approach this question from a somewhat different angle from that which I believe your Lordships have taken. I have always been a Free Trader, not because I did not think that a sound tariff was by far the best policy, but because I have never been able to see the way by which a country which is ruled by Parties and by votes could hope to obtain a scientific tariff. I was in Melbourne when the first tariff of the Commonwealth was being framed, and what I saw and heard there confirmed me most strongly in that view. It was said at the time that if the Parliament which was framing that tariff had sat at Sydney, which was the capital of the Free Trade Colony of New South Wales, the tariff would have been something very different. I believe that to be true, but if it is true it means that the mere chance of the location of the place at which Parliament sat determined the form of tariff. Could anything be more unscientific than that? 0n Monday last Lord Emmott gave us what seemed to me to be the; wisest possible advice. He said "Postpone all tariff questions till after the war." I believe that this is the right course for the country to take now. We have to win the war,
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and when the war is won we can again talk about questions of Tariff Reform. It seems to me that a wrangle between Tariff Reformers and Free Traders and Protectionists during the war would be really worse than unprofitable. When the war ends there will be many uncertainties, but one thing seems to me to be absolutely certain—that there will be a frantic scramble among all countries for raw materials, and we must safeguard our interests and those of our Allies in the scramble which I believe must take place. I believe that the best way to do that would be to pass the Imports and Exports (Temporary Control) Bill, which is hung up somewhere in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act to be voted afresh every year. By that means it seems to me that we should obtain a lien on our own raw materials, and that we should secure an orderly distribution to our Allies. The enemy countries could then have the surplus, if there were any, which seems to me to be very unlikely. But if that is not done I am not at all clear that Germany may not outwit and outbid us in the scramble which I think is certain to come.
We do not know what stocks of raw material are under the control of Germany at this moment. We do know that such stocks have been discovered in America; and we have been so much more tender to German interests in this country than the Americans have been that it is quite possible that considerable stocks are in some way or another now controlled by Germans waiting to be used when the end of the war comes. I think that in a promiscuous scramble which may happen after the war Germany might succeed in getting an undue amount of raw materials, which would be, ostensibly of course, sent through neutrals. So that I believe that the plan I suggest is the safest course, and I have reason to believe that it will be welcomed by France and by Italy, and probably also by the United States. I believe also that it would have considerable effect and exercise a great amount of pressure in Germany. It would bring pressure to bear upon Germany because so long as that law continued so long would Germany be restricted in her materials. It would therefore be to her best interests to behave in the best possible way so that the time might come when she would have an equal chance in free markets for obtaining the materials which she requires.
EARL BRASSEY: My Lords: I was very anxious for some information as to the policy of the Government as regards imperial Preference, but for very different reasons from those of the noble Earl who opened the discussion this afternoon. I was anxious to know what the policy of the Government is, because it seems to me that the position of this country is very serious, and that the outlook for the future of our trade after the war is full of anxiety.
I disagree with what fell from the last speaker and also with the view of the noble Marquess on the Front Bench. I think it is absolutely important that this question of Imperial Preference, of fiscal policy, should be decided now during the war, and that we should not wait till the end of the war before we come to a decision on this question; and for this reason. It is absolutely important for manufacturers to know during the war under what conditions the trade of the country is going to be carried on after the war, that they may lay out their plans with proper forethought for providing employment for those masses of our people who will be no longer in the employment of the Government at the end of the war. I look upon the present position as serious, because in every war in which this country has been previously engaged the trade and shipping of the country have prospered in spite of the war. In the present war conditions have been very different, as we learnt in the debate which took place in this House on Monday last. I think I am correct in saying that the noble Lord, Lord Emmott, told us that from his experience a good deal of our international trade had gone without prospect of recovery.
A fact which was not mentioned in that discussion, and which impresses me profoundly, is that the balance of imports over exports has now risen to something like £80,000,000, and during the first six months of the present year amounted to £400,000,000. In pre-war days the balance of imports over exports represented the earnings of our shipping and the interest on our investments abroad. During this war the Mercantile Marine has suffered enormous losses. Lord Inchcape told us, I think, that 8,000,000 tons of British merchant shipping had been sunk; and the shipping that has not been lost is under Government control.
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Whereas the shipbuilding of the Allies as a whole has, I believe, now overtaken the losses due to enemy submarines, that is not the case with regard to British shipping. Our investments abroad are largely in the hands of the Government; and, therefore, the present position is that the balance of our imports over exports is largely increasing our indebtedness to foreign countries, and it is of more vital importance than ever for us to keep our export trade going.
I would now like to say a few words on what seems to me to be the chief lesson to be drawn from our experience during this war, which has caused so many people—Liberals as well as Conservatives—to change their opinions. The first lesson which I think we should draw from the war is that every country should in its own interests establish, as far as possible within its own borders, all essential industries, of which the most important are the production of food-stuffs and materials for munitions. I think it is true to say that the loss of her oversea trade would long ago have brought Germany to her knees if she had not for many years before the war, of set purpose, pursued the policy of building up essential industries by securing to her own producers their home markets. What was the result? A phenomenal progress in agriculture and in commerce of Germany; emigration ceased, and there was a large growth in population. We pursued a very different policy, and what was our position at the outbreak of the war? We were dependent on foreign countries for a large proportion of our food-stuffs, and for articles essential in the production of munitions; and that despite the fact that we had in the British Empire the raw materials for the production of many of these articles. I refer especially to the zinc concentrates from Australia which were sent to Germany to be smelted under the German Metallgesellschaft, and we then bought the zinc back from Germany, with the result that, when war broke out, our ordinary supply of zinc, which was very essential for the manufacture of munitions, was cut off, and we had to pay for zinc from America something like £100 a ton, when that commodity was worth a few days before from £20 to £22.
There is one other point which very much impresses me in connection with Imperial Preferene—namely, the question of settling ex-Service men in the Dominions, which is

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occupying a great deal of public attention. The Dominions can give inducements to ex-Service men to settle by offering land on favourable terms; but the British Government has no right, no Government has any right—I do not suppose it would attempt to do so—to prevent ex-Service men emigrating to any country where they can sell their labour or employ their capital to the best advantage. If we want to ensure British emigrants remaining under the British flag we must give a preference to the products of the Dominions. I think that there can be no possible question that, if Imperial Preference had been adopted when Mr. Chamberlain proposed it, the British Empire would have gone into this war very much stronger as regards population, and would have been in a very different position from that in which it is to-day. It is possible that many people—like the noble Earl who opened the discussion this afternoon—may adhere to the old principles of Free Trade; but the lessons and experiences of this war have caused many others to alter their opinions. It may, perhaps, interest the noble Marquess of the Front Bench to know that my father—than whom there was no more staunch champion of Free Trade for over eighty years—in the last year of his life completely changed his opinion and became a firm believer in Imperial Preference; and we who had differed on this subject for fifteen years were in agreement during his last year of life.
As I said at the beginning of my remarks I feel great anxiety about the present and the future position of this country. I am not sure that, in the prosecution of the war, the permanent interests of the country have not been too much lost sight of. I welcome the announcement that the Government intend to go forward with a policy of Imperial Preference, and I trust that ere long we shall know that they have taken effective steps in that direction.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, in asking leave to withdraw my Motion I should like to offer my best thanks to the noble Earl the Lord President for the very full answer he gave to the Question I put on the Paper. The fact that he was willing to take the place of the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for War is another example, if he will allow me to say so, of the unremitting labours which he is always ready to place at the service of this
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House. I am very much obliged to him for having done so.
I will only say that his statement was a matter of very great satisfaction to me, as I am sure it will be to those who think with me. I understand that there is nothing new on the part of His Majesty's Government; that no new policy was inaugurated when Mr. Walter Long made his speech. The satisfaction which I feel is not likely, I confess, to be shared by those who do not agree with me; and I am afraid the announcement will be received with a good deal of dissatisfaction by some of the noble Earl's own supporters. But, in view of the fact that there are no Papers beyond those circulated last year, I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CONTROL OF ROADS AND BRIDGES.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had the following Question on the Paper—
To ask His Majesty's Government—

1. Whether it is proposed that the newly appointed Controller of Roads and Bridges in the United Kingdom (a military officer) shall control the construction, maintenance, and management of all roads in the United Kingdom.

2. Whether this officer has had any experience of road construction, traffic management, or local government.

3. How many officers and staff this new military-control department of roads possesses.

4. What is the annual cost, including salaries, of the Controller and his staff.

5. Whether the Road Board, the County Councils Association, and local authorities, county and borough councils, and district councils now responsible, by law, for road construction and maintenance, have been consulted.

6. Whether there is any intention of superseding or abolishing the Road Board or of continuing military control of roads and bridges in the United Kingdom after the end of the war.

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7. What statutory authority, if any, the new military Controller possesses enabling him to interfere with and over-ride the considered policy and wishes of local authorities, and whether any special legislation is proposed to authorise interference with roads and bridges now maintained almost wholly by the ratepayers.

8. Whether in the new organisation there are any representatives of the interests of the users of roads or owners of vehicles; and to move for Papers.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for raising this subject. The question is a very important one in war time, because roads are, or will be, subjects of the greatest possible; interest in this country, not only to county authorities but to the many classes of roads users.
Fortunately, to-day, I hope to be very brief, because since I put down the Notice on the Paper I have had certain communications with the War Office, and we have at any rate come to a preliminary measure of agreement with regard to certain aspects of this question. I know I shall be excused if, for a moment or two, I give the history of the controversy and also the views of the Road Board, on which I am the English representative. The roads in this country are in the charge at the present moment of something like 2,500 local authorities. The mileage of the roads under the district, county, and borough councils is about 230,000 miles, and it would be a very serious thing, and indeed unprecedented, if even under the Defence of the Realm Act any serious attempt was made by the War Office, or any Government Department, to take over the control of these roads.
The real history of this dispute between the Road Board and the War Office is rather difficult to fathom, but I may say this, that from the beginning of the war till the end of 1917 there had been, as far as I know, no serious controversy between the two bodies. The Road Board acted as agent for the War Office and other Government Departments in the repair and maintenance and in some cases the construction of new roads. At the end of last autumn there appeared a new title given to one of the officers of the Department known as D.L. 2—a title suddenly
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established—of Controller of Roads and Bridges in the United Kingdom. I was overseas at the time, but I am informed by the local authorities that that title gave great offence, and they read into it an attempt, on the part of the War Office to assume considerable powers of control over roads. I have since been assured that perhaps the fears were exaggerated. The fact is that in these days, although local authorities are only too anxious to assist the Government in every way, we all know that the Defence of the Realm Act has been strained in many directions, and I venture to think in this direction the provision of Section 5A, which is the particular section which gives the War Office power to deal with roads, has been very much strained indeed.
I do not wish, however, to go into any great controversial matters about this, but the fact was that until the end of 1917 the Road Board had done a very great deal of work for all Government Departments, who I am glad to say expressed satisfaction at the way it had been carried out. It still to-day is employing 8,000 hands by direct labour and superintending a great deal of improvement and maintenance work through the county and district councils. The particular section under which the War Office have undoubted power to control to a certain extent the repair of roads, was materially helped by an Order in Council of February 5 of this year, which gave the War Office power to take control over the maintenance of highways, and deal with damage done by extraordinary traffic, if the local authorities declined to make that damage good, but I may perhaps differ slightly from the noble Lord who is going to answer my Questions in thinking that that is where the Defence of the Realm Act has been strained. It is only in the case of damage being done and the local authority being recalcitrant that the War Office are entitled to interfere to any serious extent with the repair of roads.
The county surveyors also have represented to me that they have to do double duties. They have to attend on the engineers of the Road Board, and also on the controlling officers who act under D.L. 2. This gives them extra work and shows a certain amount of overlapping. I may mention that there has been one very useful result, I think, of the War Office taking an interest in the roads,

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namely in the establishment of the Road Stone Committee, which was appointed to take over the control of the output of stone quarries and to regulate the supply for the more important work that had to be done. That was, I think, an important departure on the part of the War Office, and I have nothing but praise for that. I believe it has worked on the whole fairly well. The County Councils Association feel very strongly about the matters to which I have been referring, and I am assured by the county surveyors that they feel very strongly about it; and so the Road Board in what I have said is not only representing its own views, which I think are moderate and can be sustained, but also the views of the local authorities and the County Councils Association, which recently passed a resolution supporting us.
No one denies that the War Office ought to have complete control over roads, and traffic over roads, in cases of invasion, and that they ought even without invasion actually occurring to see that main roads are suitable for military traffic. Nobody will grudge them that power, but I think they have gone a good deal beyond that, and thus this rather difficult position arose. I have also to admit with some regret that Sir George Gibb, who has been the very able Chairman of the Road Board since its formation nearly ten years ago, was taken away for other duties in connection with arbitration work and the Committee of Production, and therefore has only been able to give nominal attention to his duties at the Road Board. I do not think he will disagree with me in my opinion that if he had been able to attend regularly a good deal of the trouble that has arisen would not have occurred. We cannot blame the War Office for taking up certain work which had been abandoned to a certain extent, unwillingly, but owing to force of circumstances, by the Road Board. I venture to suggest to the Government that if the services of Sir George Gibb are so valuable, as I think, in his capacity as arbitrator and as Chairman of the Committee of Production, they should make some definite arrangement by which he should be relieved of the duties in connection with the Road Board or spared for those duties by giving half time service to the Department over which he has been appointed and in respect of which he is paid a considerable salary.
I am glad to tell the House that this afternoon I shall not trouble them with any long debate, and as regards the Question on the Paper if the noble Lord who is going to answer it will give me the satisfaction of an answer to paragraph 6 I will spare him, with the greatest pleasure, the task of giving detailed answers to the other paragraphs, which are rendered unnecessary by the friendly conversation which we have had since I put the Question on the Paper. I do not want to go into details of the arrangement which I hope may be come to, but I may tell the House this, that I have suggested to the Government that we should have a Joint Road Committee on which certain Government Departments and certain local authorities should be represented; that that Committee should take over certain duties from the War Office and certain duties which the Road Board are carrying out, and that it should be a Committee acknowledged by the Government as a Committee to deal with road repair and construction during war—with that class of construction and repair due to military or special traffic—because it must be remembered that a good deal of this friction has arisen over the question of the assessment of damage by timber traffic, which is a necessity of the country at this moment. In my opinion, it is not primarily a military necessity, although it is a national necessity. The Board of Trade is really as much interested in that matter as, or even more than, the War Office. I speak in no hostile spirit whatever to the War Office, because—as, perhaps, I may remind your Lordships—I have had experience for four years in India in the military sense, in connection with the roads on the North-West Frontier, and, in fact, at the present moment I produce a report every year for the Government of India on the roads from a military point of view.
I cannot be considered entirely a representative of the local authorities in this matter. On the other hand, I can claim to have been a very old member of the Hampshire County Council and, for a number of years, of its highway committee, and also a member of the County Councils Association. I trust, therefore, I shall not be accused of unduly favouring either the side of the military or that of the local authorities. I have no doubt that if this Committee is formed, as I hope it will be, we shall be able to secure the cordial cooperation of the local authorities. Certainly,

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so far as I am concerned, and so far as the members of the Road Board are concerned, we shall do everything we can to make the Committee, or some body like it, a success.
I think I shall be safe in asking the noble Earl to tell us when he replies that this authority, when it is created, will not be continued after the war and that then the whole question of the roads will possibly have to be reconsidered afresh. Military control of our roads should cease at the earliest possible moment after our military necessities, due to the war, have disappeared. There is nothing in which our county and district councils are more sensitive than the question of interference with their local rights in regard to roads. I am quite sure that my noble friends, who have written me on the subject, will agree with me in that statement. My object in raising the debate, although we have come to some form of agreement, is to say that I am glad we have been able to do so, that I dislike extremely the fact of Government Departments quarelling at all during the war, and that, so far as I am concerned, my efforts have been directed towards trying to get a compromise arranged, and to get some method whereby we could secure harmonious working between the War Office and other authorities. I hope the noble Earl will assure me on the point of continuing War Office control after the war. I can assure him that I shall try to work with the new Committee to bring about harmony between the War Office and local authorities.
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE had the following Question on the Paper upon the same subject—
To ask His Majesty's Government what is the scope of the authority of the Controller of Roads and Bridges in the United Kingdom, and the extent of his duties.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I intervene to ask the noble Earl, when he replies, to be so good as to answer the Question standing in my name, which is germane to the subject just raised by the noble Lord. This Question has a somewhat pathetic interest in it from the fact that the last time the noble Earl, Lord Lich-field, was in the House—your Lordships know he was the very able spokesman of the County Councils Association—he asked me to take charge of it for him, as he would
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be unable to be present at the end of the Session. I undertook to do so. Therefore, I thought it necessary to put the Question, notwithstanding what the noble Lord has said, and to ask the noble Earl what is the scope and authority of the Controller of Roads and Bridges in the United Kingdom and the extent of the duty which the Government propose should be entrusted to him.
I should like also, on behalf of the County Councils Association, to ask to what extent will this Controller have power to interfere with local authorities in their control and management of, and expenditure upon, roads. When I say local authorities I include not only county councils, but, as the noble Earl knows, rural district councils, urban district councils, and municipal authorities which, in certain cases, have control of the roads in their own areas, and which, of course, enter into this matter as well.
I want to know farther whether, supposing the Controller orders new roads to be made, or roads to be improved because, he does not think their standard is good enough, or because he wants alterations, that will be done entirely at the expense of the Government, or will the local authority be compelled to contribute the whole or part of the cost? I can assure the noble Earl, on behalf of the County Councils Association, in the same way as my noble friend, Lord Montagu, has assured him, that of course then is no hostility to the War Office in this matter. As local authorities we are willing to do all we can to assist the Government. On the other hand, we have a duty to our constituents and to our ratepayers to see that, if obligations of national importance are put upon us in any particular area, their cost should not fall entirely on the local rates, but that the expenditure should be borne by the country at large, for whose good the expenditure is made.
LORD ROUNDWAY: My Lords, I eranestly hope, as Lord Montagu of Beaulieu has led us to understand, that the appointment of the Controller of Roads and Bridges will be only of a temporary character. I may venture to say that I have been closely associated with the subject for a good many years, as chairman of the main roads committee of the county in which I happen to dwell. I can, therefore, speak with some small knowledge and ex-

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perience of the value and ability of the experts who, in recent years, have had control of the roads in my own county. I cannot speak too highly of their ability and their earnestness of purpose. I believe that these gentlemen—they happen to be two in number—are typical of the county surveyors throughout the length and breadth of England.
With the knowledge at present at my disposal it seems to me that it would be very unfortunate to interfere in any way with men who have such a thorough knowledge of their business, and I sincerely hope that no friction will arise. I am sure that the county surveyors will do everything in their power to meet the War Office or any other great public authority in these important matters. They realise the direction in which their duty lies, and they are willing to do their utmost. I do hope that their authority will not be interfered with more than can possibly be helped, and I will only add that, apart from that, so far as I can judge, the introduction of fresh authorities is only an additional source of expenditure at a time when the country has to consider every penny of expenditure.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE WAR OFFICE (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, perhaps before I answer the specific Questions which have been put to me by noble Lords opposite, it would be to the convenience of the House if I give, very briefly, an outline of the genesis and development of the Department at the War Office. I think there has been a good deal of misunderstanding on the subject, partly on account of an unfortunate name, and perhaps I may be able to do something to remove it. In the early days of the war camps, military centres, aerodromes, and munition factories, as your Lordships know, sprang up all over the country. Some of them were situated close to main roads, but many of them were badly situated in that respect, being served only by small roads which were quite unfitted to take heavy traffic.
It was, of course, at once obvious that the damage caused both in constructing these factories and camps, and, still more, by the actual traffic afterwards, would be very considerable, and that the cost of repairing the damage was not fairly a charge which could be put on the local rates. It then became necessary to allot the damage,
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where it had been at the instance of the State, to the taxpayer rather than the ratepayer. The Directorate of Lands Branch of the War Office, which prior to the war was responsible for dealing with claims for compensation in cases of damage to roads by extraordinary military traffic, has continued to deal with these claims for compensation after war broke out, and a section of that Directorate, D.L. 2, was made responsible. The Road Board was asked to become the agent for the War Department in settling these questions with local authorities, and from that time the officers of the Road Board have given us most invaluable assistance. We have consistently used the officers of the Road Board for giving us technical advice, and we have also been, of course, in very close touch with the surveyors of highway authorities, who have given us every assistance in their power. Therefore, your Lordships will not be surprised when I tell you that the Controller of Roads himself made very strong representations, when the House of Commons Retrenchment Committee in 1915 proposed to close down the Road Board for the period of the war, that the Committee's recommendation should not be adopted, as he was anxious to continue to make use of the technical staff of the Board.
Subsequently the Ministry of Munitions, and later still the Air Ministry, made use of this Department of the Directorate of Lands at the War Office to deal with the roads with which they are concerned. Apart from the actual damage to the roads, there were obviously many side roads which required widening, and also new roads to be made, purely and simply to connect main roads with factories and camps. At a later state difficulties arose in carrying out the necessary work owing to the shortage of material, and still more to the shortage of labour, and it became necessary to allot both labour and material to the places where most urgently needed. For that reason Defence of the Realm Regulation 5A was made, enabling the Army Council to take over the maintenance of roads where the highway authorities were unable to do the work themselves. The power has been very rarely used, and, as far as I know, it has never been used in opposition to the local authority. It is merely to assist them where they are unable to get the necessary labour to do the work which they would otherwise be ready to do. Thereafter a further Regulation was

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passed, Regulation 9GG (5), under which the Road Stone Committee was formed to control the output and sale of road material so as to ensure sufficient for the roads of national importance. The Committee consists, as your Lordships know, of representatives of the Road Board, local highway authorities, and the War Office.
Then there arises, finally, the question of damage from timber haulage. A large amount of timber was cut all over the country and used almost entirely for Government purposes. Contractors refused to do the haulage unless they were protected to some extent from claims for damage which it was quite impossible for them to foresee and which might be very considerable in amount, and, as they thought, possibly unfair to them. As the timber haulage was almost entirely for national purposes, the Government decided that it was only right that they should take over the responsibility for this damage under certain conditions. The first of those conditions was, obviously, that there should be some machinery by which the pocket of the taxpayer should be safeguarded from unnecessary damage by controlling, as far as possible, the traffic to roads which were able to stand it. Regulation 5c was therefore made, and the officer at the head of the section of the Directorate of Lands became known by the title of Controller of Roads and Bridges, United Kingdom. As the noble Lord said, that name gave rise to considerable apprehension.
The Army Council never contemplated forming a great military Department to control roads, or to maintain roads and bridges, nor to take away the duties of local authorities. All that was intended was to safeguard the taxpayer from the liability of any unnecessary burdens, the actual work of maintenance being carried out under the highway authorities in consultation with the Road Board. It was proposed that officers should be appointed to regulate and control traffic so as to cause as little damage as possible, and to see that only such damage was paid for as was chargeable to the State. The officer at the head of that Department has been engaged on this work since September, 1914, and has had experience of a somewhat similar character before the war. He has a staff of thirty-six, of whom fourteen are officers, and the total cost is under £8,000.
As to the question asked by Lord
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Montagu of Beaulieu whether it was the intention of the War Office, to continue this military control of roads and bridges after the war, I imagine there will certainly be some control for a short period after the war, for obvious reasons. Camps will have to be pulled down which are no longer required. But the Defence of the Realm Regulations will come to an end with the war, and—though I cannot, of course, give a pledge that a future Government will not abolish what this Government may decide to do—I shall be very surprised if there is any question of establishing a military control over roads and bridges once the necessities of the war and demobilisation have been met. The Army Council have never had any intention of undermining the authority of local bodies, or of displacing the Road Board. I am bound to admit that there has been a certain amount of misunderstanding and friction, I think quite unnecessarily, chiefly because of the name "Controller of Roads." The very last thing that is desired by the Army Council is that there should be any misunderstanding or friction with local authorities. We are absolutely dependent on their good will and assistance to carry out this scheme of control, with, of course, the co-operation of officers and members of the Road Board. Therefore, we have no intention of taking up an obstinate attitude.
I am very glad to be able to tell your Lordships that, largely owing to the assistance of Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, we hope we have now a scheme, which we are about to inaugurate, which I think will do away with any misunderstanding. The scheme has been approved in principle by the various Government Departments, but not in every detail; therefore I cannot give it in full to the House. The general lines of it are that there shall be set up a Committee, called the Joint Roads Committee, which will consist of representatives of the Road Board, local authorities, and the Government Departments concerned. It will not be a new office, but the Committee will take over the work of A.L. 2 at the War Office, and, of course, also the work of the Road Board, and we hope by combining these duties and responsibilities, and by getting representatives of the other Government Departments concerned, we shall be able to avoid any possibility of friction and overlapping. As your Lordships see, our desire is to work very closely with the local authorities; and I can only repeat that it is thanks to them and to the way in which

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their officials have helped us, that we have been able to carry on the very large amount of traffic of an extraordinary character entirely due to the carrying on of the war that has been thrown on the roads.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his very interesting reply, and in the circumstances I withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE MIDWIVES BILL.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE rose to ask whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to proceed with the Midwives Bill [H.L.]. The noble Lord said: My Lords, since I placed on the Paper the Question standing in my name my attention has been called to the fact that a similar Question was asked in another place, I think two days ago. As the answer that was there given was of a quite perfunctory character, I think that we have a right in this House to know a little more about the matter, especially as the Bill originated from this House.
The Minister in another place said that the Bill had come to an end owing to an error in drafting, but that it was proposed to bring forward a similar Bill next session. In reference to a Bill of this very serious character, affecting issues which are vital to the life of the nation, I am sure that your Lordships will agree with me that that kind of answer is not satisfactory. It is not a sufficient reason to be told, after a very great deal of trouble has been spent in drafting this Bill, and after a considerable amount of discussion has taken place on it in this House, and after it has been amended and sent down to the other end of the passage, that it has been abandoned because of some error in drafting. We cannot accept its dissolution on the mere statement that there has been an error in drafting, and with being told that the Government intend to produce a similar Bill next session. This method of Parliamentary procedure will not commend itself to people outside who are studying the progress of this Bill.
This is a Bill the importance of which it is impossible to exaggerate, and it seems to me that the untimely fate which it has suffered is an argument in favour of coordinating legislation of this kind, dealing with the health of the nation, under a single
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authority. It is sincerely to be hoped that the Government will press forward with the Ministry of Health Bill in order that mistakes of this character may not occur in the future. I do not wish to blame anybody in particular for the loss of this Bill. It is the system which appears to be at fault. But it is not very satisfactory to those who wish to promote the welfare of those who were contemplated to be dealt with under this Bill to be told as we may be told, that the difficulty in the way of its passage is that certain lines in the Bill were not printed in italic, and that for that reason the whole object of the Bill is to stand over until next Session. There may not be time to introduce a Bill next Session. It may be put off in a dozen different ways. I therefore beg the noble Lord who is going to reply for the Government to give your Lordships the information to which we are entitled concerning what it is that has stopped this Bill, and to reaffirm the promise given by the Government in another place that they will introduce this Bill, or one similar to it, at the earliest possible moment next Session.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, may I say one word before the noble Viscount replies. I was taken quite by surprise on hearing the account given by the noble Lord opposite of the fate that has befallen the Midwives Bill. I was aware that it had been postponed, and I could not understand why, because the Bill seemed to have been recognised as one of great importance, and when it was discussed a question was raised by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, as to whether there was likely to be any conflict between the Maternity Bill and the Midwives Bill. There was no suggestion made at that time that the Midwives Bill was in any sort of danger, and it seems almost incredible to me that the explanation given by the noble Lord opposite can be the real reason for the dropping of the Bill.
If there was some mistake in drafting, what difficulty can there have been in making that right and letting the Bill pass? I hope that it is not actually the case that the Bill has been dropped. The session is not at an end by any means, and if it be only a question of a little trouble in putting a piece of drafting right it really seems monstrous on that account that a Bill of such importance should be allowed to drop. I hope that we shall hear from the noble Viscount that the Bill has not been dropped,

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and that there may be some prospect of its proceeding this session.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I will try, in answering the question of my noble friend, to be as little perfunctory as I can, but I am afraid that there is not a great deal of information to give him. I think that he is under some misunderstanding about the Bill, because he seemed to be under the impression that it was the fault of some Public Department and due to want of co-ordination. This is not one of those matters that would be at all affected by the establishment of a Ministry of Health. I think that the noble Lord is under another misapprehension as to an undertaking or promise that the Bill should be brought forward in the next session of Parliament. The promise that was given was that the President of the Local Government Board would do his best to bring this Bill forward again, not next session, but after the adjournment, which the noble Lord sees is a different thing.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: The noble Viscount is quite right; that is what I should have said.
VISCOUNT PEEL: That consoles the noble Lord to some extent.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: Not very much.
VISCOUNT PEEL: It means a delay of two months instead of six. I join the noble Lord in deploring the fact that this Bill, over which this House spent a great deal of trouble—and upon which there were keen debates and on one important matter I believe the Opposition beat the Government, which is always a legitimate source of satisfaction to any Opposition—should have been delayed in its progress in the other House.
With reference to what my noble friend behind me says, that if it is only a matter of drafting why could not that be put right in another place, I have to state that it is not a matter of drafting. It is a matter of privilege. There were certain clauses in the Bill connected with the raising of rates which ought to have been altered in a particular form when they got into another place, and ought, in fact, not to have appeared in the form in which they did appear. Nobody is responsible fortunately
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in this House, and so your Lordships may consider that you did everything you could to promote the fortunes of this Bill. It appears also that it was not one of those cases of privilege where the other House might have waived its privilege. It was one of those cases where the authorities held—and held, I believe, inevitably—that the Bill could proceed no further.
There is, therefore, no other remedy than that proposed by the President of the Local Government Board, who will do his best to bring forward the Bill after the recess. In that case I trust that your Lordships, having welcomed the Bill, will give it a very ready passage through this House, so that it may become law at the earliest possible date. I am afraid that is the whole state of the matter, and I regret that I cannot give a more satisfactory answer to my noble friend. I hope, however, that he will not consider the answer which I have given perfunctory.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I am certain that the noble Lord above the gangway will not regard the reply of the noble Viscount as perfunctory, because he expressed all the regrets that a man in his situation could express. At the same time I am bound to remark that this particular incident is very extraordinary and untoward. Here is a Bill on which, as the noble Viscount stated, a great deal of time was spent here and deep interest was taken in what was considered an important though a not very wide matter of social reform; and it certainly is very disappointing, and, I am sorry to say, rather of a piece with the manner in which your Lordships' House is sometimes treated elsewhere, that more care should not have been taken to see that the Bill was considered in another place in its proper form. As the noble Viscount observed, nothing more need be said in the sense that there is nothing more to be done; but a great deal more might be said although there is no great purpose to be served in saving it. I trust that my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board will consider it a matter of absolute obligation to make the reproduction of this Bill his first care when we again meet.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I shall be very glad to convey to the President the desires and wishes of the noble Lords who have spoken and especially what the noble Marquess has said.

THE POPE'S NOTE
LORD BRAYE LORD BRAYE had the following Notice on the Paper—
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they intend to repudiate the secret treaties; and to call attention to a statement made on June 13 last by His Majesty's Government that they had replied to the Pope's Note, and to the fact that no such reply has been as yet received at the Vatican.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I placed the Question and the statement which appear in my name on the Paper in separate form, but I find they are printed together. I will say only a very few words in reference to the Question. These secret treaties were alluded to in the debate of June 13, and I will take this opportunity of reminding the House of Lord Lansdowne's words that they are not pleasant reading. Secret diplomacy has been condemned by the President of the United States in no measured terms. I may well say that secret diplomacy is a snake in the grass, which poisons and kills all those who tread the field of political expediency. However successful it may be at first, it is sure at last to be the cause of the decline and fall of Empires.
With regard to the statement that I have placed on the Paper, it appears that no answer has been given during this very considerable period of time by the British Government to the Note which the Vatican addressed to all the Powers of Europe, and which most of those Powers answered, not only in the form of what I might call "Yours to hand," but in a detailed and dignified way. The best thing I can do in support of my statement is to read a letter which I have received from Rome, an inspired letter written with authority. It contains these words—
"Lord Stanmore said that the British Government, in accepting the answer of President Wilson to the Holy Father, did not deem it necessary to reply directly—"
This, of course, is an allusion to the Question which I ventured to propound on June 23 in reference to this Note—
"but it should be noted that, though the Press gave out reports to such effect, the Holy See has never received a communication from the British Government informing it of this acceptance——"
"Acceptance" there I take to be equivalent to association—that is to say, that the British Government professed to, and I
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believe did, associate itself with the answer which the President of the United States gave on that occasion to the Holy See, and in that sense they accepted and supported and gave their consent to the President's answer. The letter continues—
"Therefore no reply has come to the Pontifical Note. When Lord Stanmore goes on to say that no offence was given to the Holy See by excluding it from the Peace Conference, since only the belligerent Powers will participate and all neutrals will be excluded, attention should be directed to the mention solely of the Holy See as agreed upon in Article XV—"
That is to say, the Holy See alone is mentioned as the Power to be excluded from any possible Conference which may take place—
"There is no mention of other neutrals. By an odious discrimination one alone is singled out for special exclusion; this exclusion gives offence to the Holy See. Obviously Article XV will be deemed offensive as long as it is in force. Therefore the failure of the British Government to reply to the Papal Note was stated correctly in the House of Lords."
As I say, that letter is sanctioned by authority, and if there is any solution to the apparent contradiction which commends itself to me it is this, that the British Government did send an answer of sorts—whatever it was I do not know; we never received the text of it—and they certainly expressed their adhesion to President Wilson's answer, but the reply was not given at Rome by our Envoy to the Pope, That is the only solution that I can conjecture, but if there is any other explanation of the matter I feel sure that the public, not only in this country but also, or more so, in Ireland and in the Colonies, will be very satisfied to have it and to know what actually took place.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords, in regard to the first Question asked by the noble Lord, as to whether it is the intention of the Government to repudiate the secret treaties, it is not the intention of the Government to repudiate those treaties. In fact, of course, a secret treaty is in every way just as binding as any other kind of treaty.
In regard to the noble Lord's second Question, he rather gave the impression that no answer of any kind had been returned to the Papal Note. What actually happened was that Count de Salis had an interview with the Cardinal Secretary of State, at which he informed His Eminence that the King had gladly complied with

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the wishes of the Pope and had at once transmitted to the Heads of the States not in diplomatic relations with the Holy See His Holiness's proposals with regard to peace. Count de Salis added that His Majesty had received those proposals with the most sincere appreciation of the lofty and benevolent intentions which had animated His Holiness, and that His Majesty's Government, would study them with the closest and most serious attention. Shortly after that, as the noble Lord pointed out, the President of the United States made his reply to the Pope's Note, and His Majesty's Government publicly stated that they associated themselves with that reply.
LORD BRAYE: May I ask the noble Lord whether the text of this reply will ever be published, or is it what I may call a confidential communication from the Government to the Vatican?
LORD STANMORE: Which reply?
LORD BRAYE: Either or both.
LORD STANMORE: The fast was in an interview.
LORD BRAYE: I understood there was an answer conveyed by Count de Salis, and then alter a considerable lapse of time, several weeks, there was another answer to the effect that we adhered to the reply of the President of the United States. There were two occasions.
LORD STANMORE: The first answer was conveyed in an interview, the substance of which I have given to the noble Lord. The second statement was made publicly in the House of Commons.

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION IN DENMARK.
EARL GREY: My Lords, I rise to ask whether any information has been received by His Majesty's Secretary of Slate for Foreign Affairs as to the working of proportional representation in the first elections under the new constitution for the Lower
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House of Parliament in Denmark, and, if so, whether the information can be furnished to the House.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I am pleased to be able to inform the noble Earl that the Foreign Office are quite ready to print the document to which he refers.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD HYLTON: The noble Earl the Leader of the House, who is unable to be in his place at the moment, desires me to inform your Lordships that it is intended, at the meeting of the House to-morrow, to propose an adjournment until October 15. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn until twelve o'clock to-morrow.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[From Minutes of August 6.]

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

ROTHERHAM CORPORATION BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at six o'clock until noon to-morrow.