Sitting of 6 November 1917

LORD FERMOY.
The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the House that he had received from the Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland a Certificate that Edward FitzEdmund Burke. Baron Fermoy, in the Peerage of Ireland, was adjudicated a bankrupt on the 4th day of May, 1917.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

BILLS OF EXCHANGE (TIME OF NOTING) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a to-morrow.

THE AIR RAIDS ON LONDON.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had the following Notice on the Paper—
To call attention to the recent air raids on London and other towns, and to ask His Majesty's Government whether they can, without conveying information to the enemy, make any statement as to the steps they propose to take to defeat the enemy's aircraft and defend the capital.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I desire to withdraw the Notice standing in my name. I do this at the request of the Government, who think that a reference at the present moment to this subject would be inopportune. Personally I am sorry that the debate cannot take place, as there is no doubt great public feeling on this question. I am sure that nothing would have been said in your Lordships' House which would have given any information to the enemy or been anything but helpful; but in the circumstances I withdraw the Motion.

EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS.
THE EARL OF ANCASTER: My Lords, I desire to ask the noble Lord the Assistant Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement to the House as to the progress which is being made in carrying out the arrangements for the exchange, of civilian prisoners over
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forty-five years of age and of disabled naval and military prisoners of war, and also for the transfer to a neutral country of other naval and military prisoners.
It is now many months since we all believed that negotiations had been carried out between the belligerent Governments which would result in these three different exchanges being made. So far, a certain number of men have been exchanged; but there is a great deal of anxiety in the country, and a feeling that the exchanges are not proceeding as rapidly as they should. It is with a view of allaying that anxiety that I trespass upon your Lordships' time this afternoon to ask the noble Lord whether he can make some reaffirming statement on the subject.
Before I sit down I should like to assure the noble Lord that I have raised this question in no spirit of hostility to himself, because I believe that no man could have laboured more thoroughly, both in and out of season, to find a solution of this most difficult question than he has done, and we owe him a deep debt of gratitude for the efforts he has made. There is, however, a great feeling in the country, judging from letters which we have received, that these exchanges are not going forward as rapidly as possible, and I am sure that it would greatly tend to allay the anxiety if we could on this occasion be given some reassuring statement.
THE ASSISTANT UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, if the House desires it, I am quite ready to give the noble Earl all the information that lies within my power. I should like to say, in the first place, that I fully sympathise with the feeling that he has expressed as to the anxiety existing in the country and the natural impatience which must prevail with regard to the perfectly intolerable delay that has taken place in the carrying out of the Agreement to which he has referred.
It is now more than four months since I, as representative of His Majesty's Government, signed this Agreement, and I must reluctantly admit that only a small portion of it has yet been carried out. This Agreement was signed, if I recollect rightly, on July 2 of this year. It was not until a month had elapsed that we received from the German Government the announcement of the formal ratification of the Agreement.

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After another month had elapsed, and after we had convinced ourselves to the best of our knowledge that there was no particular objection to the port of Hull, we were informed that that port was not acceptable to the German Government, and therefore we had to suggest a fresh one. The Admiralty, who showed every desire to expedite this arrangement, eventually offered the port of Boston; but it was not until approximately the middle of last month that Boston was definitely agreed to by the German Government.
I believe that what I have called the intolerable delay has been interpreted by many people in this country as evidence of the perfidy of the German Government. Personally, I am not inclined to take that view. I believe that the excessive and utterly unreasonable delay which has taken place with regard to the carrying out of the Agreement has been due, not to bad faith on the part of the German Government, but to the essential difference of procedure on the part of the two Governments concerned. I, for instance, with my colleagues go out as representatives of the British Government. We come back, our Agreements are approved by the Cabinet, and thereupon the various Departments get their orders to carry out the Agreements whether they approve of them or not. In Germany, however, what happens is this. The German delegates present their conclusions and Agreements, but there is nothing, so far as I am aware, in Germany corresponding to the Cabinet here. Therefore all these Agreements have to go to different Departments, which no doubt obstruct them as much as lies in their power. And I have no doubt that the chief obstruction comes from the German Admiralty; and in the last resort, I imagine, any proposal of great importance goes before those eminent chiefs, Generals von Hindenburg and von Ludendorff; and I should be very much surprised if either of them takes anything but the strictest business view of proposals put before them.
Boston having been agreed upon at length between the Governments, elaborate arrangements had to be made between the British, Dutch, and German Governments, and with the shipping companies concerned, with regard to the steamships which were to convey prisoners over to this country and take others back. I am happy to say that only a day or two ago a telegram arrived stating that these arrangements
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were almost complete; and, so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, I can state most emphatically that there is no reason whatever why these boats should not start from Holland on any day or at any hour. There will be three steamers employed upon this work, and, in accordance with a suggestion made by the German Government, the first trip will be of an experimental character; and as the Germans requested that lying-down cases—cases of invalids should not be dealt with upon this experimental voyage, the prisoners on this first trip will in all probability consist of able-bodied civilians who are exchanged in virtue of old Agreements. After the first voyage has taken place, it is to be hoped that it will be promptly followed by other voyages, when incapacitated combatant prisoners will be exchanged.
The noble Earl, in the course of his inquiries, asked when combatant prisoners were likely to be interned in Holland under that particular Agreement. I remember that when the Dutch Foreign Minister was good enough to inform me privately of the generous offer of the Dutch Government, I asked him whether he realised all that this offer meant and the difficulties which would result from it. I am sorry to say that the difficulties have proved even greater than I anticipated. The question of accommodating even a few thousand prisoners in Holland under present conditions has, unfortunately, presented considerable difficulty. The arrangements for accommodating these combatant prisoners are undertaken by the War Office, in conjunction with the Dutch Government. With that object a British General Sir John Hanbury-Williams, proceeded to Holland so far back as August last and he has been there ever since. A few weeks ago he was joined by two War Office experts one a medical expert, and the other a financial expert in order to assist him in making the necessary preparations. These two experts have recently returned. I have not seen them, but I hear that they do not hold out any prospect, until fully a month has elapsed from the present date, of accommodating the combatants who are entitled to be interned in Holland. Personally I should have thought it ought to have been possible without delay to accommodate a limited number of these men, but I am not familiar with the whole facts. All that I know is

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that accommodation has been secured in the neighbourhood of The Hague.
I repeat that I can well understand the extreme impatience at the delay which must be felt by many people, and the intense disappointment of the prisoners themselves and of their relatives. Nobody can deplore this more than I do. There are many people in this country who appear to think that the delay which takes place is due either to my own incapacity or to the incapacity and ill-will of the various Departments. They are also fond of asserting that these things are managed bettor everywhere else. Let me give an instance to the contrary. The French and German Governments entered into Agreements under which large numbers of men should have been exchanged as far back as April and May last. Any one can see that it is infinitely more easy to carry out an Agreement between France and Germany than it is to carry out one, between this country and Germany, because no sea separates France from Germany. Yet in spite of these Agreements having been concluded so far back, they are not in operation yet. This fact, I think, ought to convince the most hardened sceptics
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that the exchange of prisoners is not so easy a business as they appear to imagine.

THE SITUATION IN IRELAND.
VISCOUNT CHAPLIN: Your Lordships will have observed that I have on the Paper for Thursday next the following Notice
To call attention to the gravity of the situation in Ireland, and to ask what steps the Government are taking in pursuance of the statement made by the Prime Minister on Tuesday, October 23, in another place; and to move for Papers.
It may, perhaps, be for the convenience of the House that I should state that, in view of a request which I received this morning from the Leader of the House (Lord Curzon). I propose to postpone the Question until next Tuesday. I am sure your Lordships will all share with me the regret that this request has been made on account of the indisposition of the noble Earl.
House adjourned at fifteen minutes before five o'clock.