Sitting of 1 March 1917

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday next.
Land Drainage (Ramsey) Provisional Order Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.

SUMMER TIME (DEPARTMENTAL COMITTEE).
Copy presented of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to inquire into the social and economic results of the Summer Time Act, 1916, and to consider (i) whether it is advisable that Summer Time should be reintroduced in 1917 and subsequent years, and, if so, (ii) whether any modifications in the arrangements are required, and (iii) between what dates Summer Time should be made operative [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
MINISTRY OF FOOD.
Copies presented of Manufacture of Flour and Bread Order (No. 2), 1917, Seed Potatoes (Prices) Order 1917, Potatoes (1916) Main Crop (Prices) Order (No. 2), 1917, Malt (Restriction) Order, 1917, and Price of Milk Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table,

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
Copy presented of Statute made by the Governing Body of All Souls College, Oxford, and sealed on 22nd November, 1916, amending Statutes III. and IX. of
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the Statutes of the College [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 37.]

DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS ACTS.
Copy presented of Order, numbered D.I.P. 457, declaring an area, described in the Schedule thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and an infected area for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACTS, 1911 TO 1913.
Copy presented of Third Report on the Work of the National Insurance Audit Department, 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Accounts of the National Health Insurance Fund (England), the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund, the Scottish National Health Insurance Fund, and the Irish National Health Insurance Fund, established pursuant to Section. 54 (1), 82 (2), 30 (2), and 81 (2), respectively, of the National Insurance Act, 19911, showing the receipts and payments during the period 12th January to 31st December, 1914, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor—General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 38.]

NAVY (APPROPRIATION ACCOUNT).
Copy presented of the Appropriation Account of the Navy for 1915–16, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor—General thereon, and upon the Store Accounts of the Navy [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 39.]

MINISTRY OF MUNITIONS.
Copy presented of Appropriation Account of the sums granted by Parliament to defray the Expenses of the Ministry of Munitions for the year ended 31st March, 1916, together with the Report

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of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 40.]
Copy presented of Appropriation Account of the sums granted by Parliament for the Expenses of the Ordnance Factories, the cost of the production of which has been charged to the Army, Navy, Ministry of Munitions, and Indian and Colonial Governments, etc., for the year ended 31st March, 1916, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 41.]

BANKRUPTCY COURTS (IRELAND).
Annual Returns presented of the Official Assignee of the King's Bench Division in Bankruptcy in Ireland and the Local Courts, Belfast and Cork, for the year 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
COMMITTALS (IRELAND).
Copy presented of Returns from the Clerks of the Crown and Peace of the number of persons committed for trial in 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  WAR.

    ARRESTS IN IRELAND.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has brought, or will bring, under the notice of the United States Government the fact that William Pedlar, an American citizen, has been, with others, deported from Ireland, and is now interned at Oxford, without trial, and on no charge but an alleged suspicion of having acted, acting, or being about to act in a manner prejudicial to the public safety, and whether the American Government requires a charge to be formulated and tried in a civil Court in this case?
    The MINISTER of BLOCKADE (Lord Robert Cecil): I have no knowledge of the case to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. GINNELL: Will the Noble Lord not inquire?
    Lord R. CECIL: No, I think not.

  PRISONERS OF WAR.

    CAMPS IN GERMANY.
    Mr. BROOKESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since the withdrawal of the American diplomatic representative in Germany, he is still receiving reports as to the condition and treatment of the British in the various prisoners' and internment camps; and whether he can make any general statement on this treatment and condition?
    Mr. JAMES HOPE (Lord of the Treasury): No reports by the Netherland Legation at Berlin on prisoner of war camps in Germany have yet been received. The Netherland Government did not take over our interests in Germany until the 3rd February and sufficient time has not yet elapsed for any reports on camps to be received here. A special staff has been sent to the Netherland Legation at Berlin to look after our prisoners, and I have no doubt that reports will reach us ere long. The American reports, some of which reached us after the rupture of diplomatic relations, show that the conditions in the main camps are generally satisfactory. The conditions in the working camps vary considerably.

    EXCHANGE.
    Mr. BROOKESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the increasing number of Turkish prisoners now in our hands, he can take any further steps to elicit from the Turkish Government the whereabouts and treatment of British and Indian prisoners who have never hitherto been traced?
    Mr. HOPE: We are doing all we can to trace British and Indian prisoners of war in Turkey by means of inquiries through American and other channels. I fear I have no definite information later than that contained in my answer of the 21st to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton.
    Colonel YATE: May I ask whether, seeing that we have now a large number of Turkish prisoners in our hands, any question of exchange can be entered into?
    Mr. HOPE: As a matter of fact, such a question is being entered into.

    BRITISH BLOCKADE.
    Mr. BROOKESasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if

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    he can state whether the results of the tightening of the British blockade are proving satisfactory; and in what direction this is especially noticeable?
    Lord R. CECIL: For some months past no substantial quantity of goods imported overseas into Scandinavia or Holland has, I believe, gone through to Germany, nor have there been any material overseas exports from Germany through those countries. Recently, as a result of negotiation with the neutral countries named, the export of their produce to Germany has been considerably diminished. As to results, it is difficult to be certain. But I think it is safe to say that there is now a serious shortage of foodstuffs and certain other vitally important materials in enemy countries.?

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND).
    Mr. FLAVINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that there is over 100 acres tillable land on the Griffen estate, at Lahardan, near Ballybunion, which is let for grazing; whether he is aware that there are a number of small holdings in the immediate vicinity; and whether he can say why the Congested Districts Board have not acquired this land compulsorily to relieve congestion and give more tillage for the past eight years?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Duke): I am informed that about 100 acres on the estate referred to is in the owner's hands, but I have no information as to how the land is let. There are a number of small holdings on the estate, but as the lands are held under a lease terminating in 1956, the Congested Districts Board could not acquire the lands compulsorily for the purpose of distribution.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this case, like the case of Meyvoo and Ballyconnery on the Stack estate, is before the Congested Districts Board for ten years; and is he also aware that there is no tillage on the land; and what steps are either the Congested Districts Board or the Government going to take, if they want tillage and an increased food production, to allow the people to go on the land and raise food?
    Mr. DUKE: I cannot add anything to the answer I have already given.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what action the Government propose to take, in connection with increased food production in Ireland, with reference to the landlords who have increased the difficulties of that problem by refusing to sell to their tenants and continuing to exact their rents, and what action with reference to the tenants thus handicapped as compared with their neighbours who have purchased; and whether he has received from the Mullingar District Council a resolution urging the Government to equalise the condition of purchased and unpurchased farmers by enforcing, as from the beginning of 1916, an automatic reduction of 6s. in the £ of all such rents?
    Mr. DUKE: I have received the resolution of the Mullingar Rural District Council referred to. Legislation for the purpose indicated in the question is not contemplated.
    Mr. P. MEEHANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that, owing to the action of the agent of Lady Bury, an absentee landowner at present residing in Austria, Lieutenant Handy, at present serving at the front, was prevented selling his holding at Croghan, King's County, containing 477 acres, to small holders in the district and making the same available for food production; and whether, seeing that. Lieutenant Handy has been prevented from disposing of his property by a technical bar in the Land Acts availed of by this lady of pro-Austrian tendencies, he will consider the advisability of having an Order issued under the Defence of the Realm Act that, notwithstanding anything in the Land Law (Ireland) Acts to the contrary, no sales or sub-divisions of present tenancies without the consent of the landlord shall be void or voidable unless the Food Controller shall so determine?
    Mr. DUKE: The Defence of the Realm Acts do not give the power suggested in the question.
    Mr. GINNELL: May I ask whether the Government are not in a position to issue a Regulation under the Acts to give them the necessary power, and whether they will do that?
    Mr. DUKE: No. I have tried to explain in correspondence with the hon. Member that it is the Acts which do not contain the

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    power, and it is not a failure to make a Regulation under the Acts. The Acts do not contemplate action of this kind.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state by what means the Government propose to obtain food crops this season from grazing tracts in Ireland of which the owners are them selves unable to till any portion, but are willing to sell for distribution, and on which the neighbouring uneconomic holders and landless people will not work unless they are made purchasers on the usual terms, and have refused to take conacre even when offered to them for nothing; and whether a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Acts will be issued forthwith enabling such owners to sell to such purchasers at such prices as the Estates Commissioners on subsequent inspection find the allotments to be worth, so that tillage may proceed without further delay?
    Mr. DUKE: So far as I am aware there is no power under the Defence of the Realm Acts to do what is suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. GINNELL: Then the Government are not serious in connection with increased tillage and food production?
    Mr. FLAVIN: asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. O'Brien, of Limerick, agent on the Studdert estate, situate at Ballyouneen, North Kerry, is willing to sell to the Congested Districts Board; whether he is aware that this estate is flooded, which prevents the lands from being used for tillage purposes; and whether he will ask the Congested Districts Board to again consider the advisability of purchasing this estate?
    Mr. DUKE: The agents for this property informed the Congested Districts Board in February, 1915, that the owner had decided to offer the estate for sale to the Board, but no maps or documents were lodged. In April, 1915, the Board informed the agents that they had been obliged to suspend negotiations for the purchase of estates and that no further action could be taken with reference to this estate. I am informed that the estate is liable to flooding, but until the Congested Districts Board are in a position to resume negotiations for the purchase of estates they cannot take any action with a view to acquiring this property.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large portion of this
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    estate is subject to flooding, and that the land cannot be used for tillage purposes, and that therefore you cannot get an increased production of food; is he aware also that owing to the non-purchase of the estate the tenants are subject to judicial rent, while all the neighbours have the advantage of land purchase?
    Mr. DUKE: There is an advantage in the position of tenants whose estates have been made the subject of purchase.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will not the right hon. Gentleman deal with the whole question in Ireland, and see that there is equality of treatment amongst the tenants on the question of purchase?

    POTATOES.
    Mr. P. MEEHANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will consider the advisability of having a list published by the Department of Agriculture in Ireland giving the names of those applying for export licences for potatoes, the amount applied to be exported, the amount allowed to be exported, and the destination thereof?
    Captain DONELANasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state the quantity of potatoes shipped from Ireland by each person or firm to whom a licence has been granted since the Order came into force?
    Mr. DUKE: I think no useful purpose would be served by publishing the particulars asked for.
    Captain DONELAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I asked this question so far back as the 12th of last month, and I have never yet succeeded in obtaining a reply to it?
    Mr. DUKE: The reply I have given is that after taking advice on the matter no useful purpose would be served by publishing this list.
    Captain DONELAN: Might it not be very awkward to publish it?
    Mr. DUKE: If that contains any suggestion that there has been any sort of indirect process in the issue of these licences, I am bound to say, so far as I know—and I have kept myself fully acquainted with the facts—it is a totally unfounded suggestion.
    Mr. MOONEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of making some return of the amount shipped, in view of the fact that the state-

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    ment appeared in the "Times" this morning that the Food Controller has been informed that there are 50,000 tons of potatoes in Ireland which could be shipped to England, whereas the opinion in Ireland is quite the contrary?
    Mr. DUKE: That statement was published on the authority of a Member of this House. I confess, so far as my information goes, I could not make such a statement, and I have done my best to ascertain the conditions, but the hon. Member who is responsible for the statement is engaged in the trade, and no doubt has access to information in the trade which may supply particulars which are not given upon the census to those who collect for the census.
    Mr. MOONEY: Is it not a fact that the hon. Member of this House, on whose authority that statement is made, is not only connected with the trade, but also holds a Government appointment in connection with potatoes; and can the right hon. Gentleman say on what ground he makes a statement which is entirely contrary to the opinion in Ireland?
    Mr. DUKE: It is quite true that the hon. Member who is connected with the trade is a member of the Committee which has been assisting the Government Department dealing with this very difficult matter——
    Mr. LUNDON: The only Irishman on the Committee!
    Mr. DUKE: If he had not been a member of the trade he would have been quite useless for the purpose for which that assistance is required.
    Mr. J. P. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the reason which actuated the Local Government Board in fixing on Up-to-Date seed as the best potato for use in sowing this year's crop; whether he is aware that nearly all the public Boards in Ireland regard this seed as valueless for producing a good table or a keeping potato; and will he direct that Champion or Arran Chief seed be substituted?
    Mr. DUKE: Arrangements for supplies of seed to district councils are made by the Department of Agriculture, and the reason why "Up-to-Date" was selected for the purpose of the scheme is stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Connemara on the 21st ultimo.
    Mr. LUNDON: Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the Local Government Board to allow the local rural district council to purchase seeds locally if they find suitable ones?
    Mr. DUKE: Well, Sir, that matter has been the subject of consideration owing to the question raised by the lion. Gentleman the Member for North Kerry. In any case where it is possible to give these facilities without disturbing the general operation of the tillage scheme it is desirable to give them.
    Captain DONELANasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) the extent of the shortage of the present supply of potatoes in Ireland as compared with the supply at this period last year?
    Mr. DUKE: The estimated production of potatoes in Ireland in 1916 was 1,276,717 tons less than in 1915. As no complete figures are available showing the consumption of potatoes, the Department of Agriculture are not in a position to state the extent of the shortage.
    Captain DONELANasked the quantity of potatoes exported from Ireland for the use of the military forces of the Crown since the Order was made prohibiting the shipment of potatoes from Ireland except under licence?
    Mr. DUKE: Licences are not issued by the Department of Agriculture in connection with the export of potatoes for the use of the military authorities, and they are not in a position to give the information desired.
    Captain DONELAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how this information can be ascertained?
    Mr. DUKE: I will inquire.
    Mr.MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, in view of the fact that he has fixed an artificial price for potatoes irrespective of the ordinary operation of supply and demand, and that consumption is no longer regulated automatically by price, whether he has considered the possibility of the stock of potatoes being exhausted before the new crop is ready; and whether he proposes to establish a system of potato rations?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY Of FOOD CONTROL (Captain Bathurst): The possibility that

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    the stock of potatoes would be exhausted before the 1917 supplies are available has been taken into account, and an increased price was allowed for potatoes delivered after 31st March with the object of giving an inducement to growers not to throw the whole of their supplies upon the market at once. There is no present intention of establishing a system of compulsory rations in the case of potatoes.
    Mr. FRANCE: How does the hon. Gentleman differentiate between holding up stocks for inducement of prices and holding up stocks against giving supplies to the public?
    Captain BATHURST: The supplies in the hands of the farmers are known to the Department, and are being carefully watched.
    Mr. RAFFANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, whether a number of retailers are refusing to supply potatoes at the stipulated price of 1½d. per lb. unless other vegetables are purchased at the same time; and, seeing that this practice entails hardship on the poor, whether immediate steps will be taken to render it illegal?
    Captain BATHURST: As I stated in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for South West Ham yesterday, the practice described in the question is prohibited by the Potatoes 1916 Main Crop (Prices) Order, No. 2, which came into force last Saturday. I might perhaps add that several cases of alleged overcharging are being investigated and if substantiated proceedings will be at once taken.

    LAND AT LISTOWEL.
    Mr. FLAVINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a deputation representative of people living in Listowel recently waited on Lord Listowel requesting him to give land in his possession for tillage which is now let for grazing; whether he can say how much land Lord Listowel owns and is in possession of in and around Listowel; and whether he can also state how much of this land which is in his possession he has offered to the local committee for the growing of food and employing the poor of the district?
    Mr. DUKE: I am told that the Chairman of the Listowel Uuban District Council recently waited on Lord Listowel to ask him to give some land for the purpose of
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    tillage plots for the poor. Lord Listowel owns about 144 acres near Listowel, of which about 18 acres are under tillage. He offered 9 acres to the deputation for tillage purposes.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Listowel has sold his estate and has received about a quarter of a million of money as a result of the sale? Is he also aware that the only land offered to the local council is land in occupation for the accommodation and purposes of the people of the town in the quarter where milk is being produced for their families?
    Mr. DUKE: The only information I asked for was for the purpose of answering this question.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries? Will he also inquire how much land is in the possession of Mr. Marshall Hill, Lord Listowel's under-agent, and what amount of tillage is now being carried out by Mr. Hill?
    Mr. DUKE: If the hon. Member puts a question down I will endeavour to answer it.
    Mr. FLAVINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Listowel Rural District Council prepared a scheme for the cultivation and letting in conacre the vacant and derelict land at Doon, near Ballybunion; whether he is aware that the Listowel Rural District Council have been in communication with the Department of Agriculture, Dublin, for over a month; and whether he will ask the Department to give an immediate and favourable reply to the council, so that this land can be ploughed for increased food production this spring?
    Mr. DUKE: The matter is under discussion between the Department of Agriculture and the council.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will the right hon. Gentle, man facilitate a quick decision in order that this land may be acquired by the Listowel Rural District Council for the increased production of food this spring?

    GRAZING RANCHES.
    Mr. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what steps he proposes to take to compel the owners of the grazing ranches of Toneymore, Coolcraff, Asthna, Ardagullion, and the Manor to

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    comply with the Tillage Order; and will he, in respect of their failure, enter into possession of these lands and offer them to the adjoining tenants for the sowing of crops before 25th March?
    Mr. DUKE: In an answer to the hon. Member for North Westmeath on Monday, and an answer to the hon. Member for West Donegal yesterday, I made a full statement as to the duties and intended procedure of the Department of Agriculture in cases of the kind which are dealt with in their questions.

    LAND LET BY CONACRE (IRELAND).
    Mr. LUNDONasked how much land the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners have let by conacre; and what is the average price per statute acre charged?
    Mr. DUKE: The Congested Districts Board are setting land in conacre at low prices from 15s. to £2 10s. per acre. Lettings are going on from day to day, and the total cannot at present be given, but it is not likely to be as large as I had hoped would be the case unless local cultivators show greater eagerness to avail themselves of the Board's offers. I have asked for a return from the Estates Commissioners. They are to a great extent tilling their own farms.
    Mr. LUNDONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will now publish a full list, county by county, of all people who have applied for exemption from, the tillage scheme, together with a statement as to whether such exemptions have or have not been granted, so that landless men and labourers may know what people they may approach successfully with a view to getting land under the conacre system?
    Mr. DUKE: No, Sir.

    IRISH FOOD PRODUCTION COMMITTEE.
    Mr. LUNDONasked if the Irish Food Committee will in the first instance deal with people who refuse to give land for conacre to the poor in the cases of exemptions?
    Mr. DUKE: The Department of Agriculture will be advised by its Advisory Committee, and will decide whether to enter for tillage or to select some person or authority to till land as to which there is default.
    Mr. LUNDONasked if the Irish Food Production Committee will publish weekly lists of those who may be granted exemption from the tillage scheme, and the reasons for such exemption?
    Mr. DUKE: I will ascertain whether any good purpose is likely to be served by such a publication.

    BREWING BY-PRODUCTS.
    Mr. CLANCYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a resolution passed by the county Dublin Advisory Committee on Food Production to the effect that the restrictions on the output of the by-products of brewing and distilling was likely to cause a serious shortage in the food for milking stock; and whether this circum stance will be taken into account with a view to modifying the restrictions to which reference is made?
    Mr. DUKE: The Department of Agriculture have received a copy of the resolution mentioned. The restrictions referred to will probably cause a shortage in the by-products of breweries and distilleries which are used as food for milking stock, but other supplies of cereal food will be released, and I am told that concentrated foods can be used as substitutes.

    MILK.
    Mr. CLANCYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received any representations as to the scarcity of the milk supply, not merely in urban districts, but in many of the rural districts of that country; and, if so, whether he has considered, or will consider, as an essential part of the problem of the food supply of the people in this time of crisis, the advisability of the application of the power of compulsory acquisition of land for the purpose of pasturage for milch cows?
    Mr. DUKE: The Local Government Board has had one or two applications for facilities such as are mentioned in the question. I have received representations from several hon. Members as to the utility of the provision of cow pasturage and am in communication with various Departments in Ireland upon the subject. As at present advised, I doubt whether what is sought could be obtained without legislation.

    AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY (IRELAND).
    Mr. LOUGHasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture

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    (Ireland) whether he received an application from the Killeshandra Co-operative Agricultural and Dairy Society, Limited, on the 23rd January last for a loan of £l,000 under the scheme which the Department have inaugurated for the purchase of agricultural machinery in Ireland; whether he is aware that no definite reply has yet been made to this application; and, if so, how the Department hopes to secure an increased area of tillage if proposals duly presented are not promptly dealt with now when undue delays in these matters may jeopardise the food production scheme, with consequent loss and danger to the nation?
    Mr. DUKE: The Department of Agriculture received the application referred to and have informed the society as to the conditions attached to the scheme of loans for the purchase of agricultural implements and machinery. Any member of the society complying with the conditions of the scheme may obtain a loan for the purpose. The society's letter of 23rd January was duly replied to by the Department, who asked for further details in regard to the application in order to place them in a position to deal with the matter.

    ALLKGED MEAT GAMBLING.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the President of the Board of Trade the total quantity of Government sheep and lambs sold to the firms of Bates and Bates, Hartridge and Bates, and Bates and Chappell during the year 1916; whether he is aware that allegations as to gambling in meat are being made in Smithfield against these firms; whether since the War they have acquired several new premises in the market; and whether, in view of the undertaking previously given by his Department to promptly inquire into any case of meat-cornering, he will at once institute an inquiry, compel these firms to produce their books, and also take evidence from the persons who have sold them the goods?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. G. Roberts): These allegations were inquired into more than six months ago, when the matter was fully dealt with. There have been no subsequent complaints, and it does not appear necessary to re-open the question.

    ARABLE LAND.
    Mr. ORDE-POWLETTasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that very
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    many farmers will be unable to increase the amount of arable land on their holdings, and in many cases will have to reduce the amount at present under plough owing to indispensable horsemen, etc., having been called up; and whether, as it is vitally important to increase the supply of home-grown food, he will issue instructions that men who, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture, after consultation with the local war agricultural committees, are absolutely indispensable shall receive exemption, until at any rate the necessary ploughing and sowing have been completed?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD Of AGRICULTURE (Sir Richard Winfrey): My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. In reply to the first part of it I may say that the Board are well aware of the position and are doing their best to meet it. In reply to the latter part I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by me on Tuesday last to questions by the hon. Member for the Leigh Division of Lancaster.

    MINIMUM WAGE (WOMEN).
    Mr. ANDERSONasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to establish a minimum wage for women employed on the land; and, if so, what minimum?
    The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Bonar Law): This matter is receiving the careful consideration of His Majesty's Government, but a decision has not yet been reached.

    SUGAR.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether a large amount of fruit is grown in small cottage gardens all over the country, and that a large proportion of this food will be completely wasted unless sugar is available for preserving; and whether he can arrange that at the proper season supplies of sugar will be available for preserving fruit at home?
    Captain BATHURST: I am aware of the importance of this matter, and can assure the hon. Member that the desirability of allotting supplies of sugar for this purpose is not being overlooked. Having regard, however, to all the conditions affecting supplies of sugar, the Food Controller does not feel justified at present in giving any undertaking that supplies will

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    be available for this purpose other than those which householders can render available by savings from their ordinary domestic consumption.

    MEAT.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) whether he will request each of the 400 firms in Smithfield Meat Market to prepare a return from their books showing the total number of beef-quarters, mutton carcases, lambs, and boxes of offal consigned to, bought, or otherwise acquired for sale, from 1st January to 24th February; whether he will further request them to show what proportion of the beef-quarters, sheep, lambs, and complete boxes of offal were sold to butchers and what proportion to market jobbers having premises either inside the market or in Long Lane and Charterhouse Street, and specifying in each case, where the goods were disposed of to a jobber, the quantity and the name of the purchasing firm; in cases where it is shown that the actual purchases of any one firm, or any specified set of firms, were such as to influence a rise of prices, will he inquire into the case so as to decide what action to take; and (2) whether from the 1st of March onwards he will prohibit, in all cases of home-killed meat, the sale in Smithfield Market of goods consigned from the provinces to others than genuine bonâ-fide retailing butchers or persons who are buying on commission for genuine bonâ-fide retailing butchers and can produce the order of such to purchase on their behalf; and that, in the case of all importers of foreign or Colonial meat, he will instruct the respective importing firms to make a daily return of all sales and quantities made by them to any firm of market jobbers and a further return of the dates on which such goods are withdrawn from the refrigerators in which they are stored?
    Captain BATHURST: The object which the hon. Member evidently has in view of checking undue speculation is one with which the Food Controller fully sympathises. He has already made certain inquiries into the points raised in these questions and is making further inquiries. It is not clear, however, that the steps suggested by the hon. Member are the best method of dealing with the matter.

    TEA.
    Mr. FLAVINasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Home and Colonial Stores at Exeter have increased the price of tea within the past month from 2s. per lb. to 2s. 2d., and again to 2s. 4d. per lb.; whether he is aware that this tea has been in stock by the Home and Colonial people for a considerable time and that, in addition to the increase of 4d. in the lb. that has been put on, the consumer is also compelled to pay the price of tea for the paper wrapper which is weighed in with the tea; and what action he proposes to take to protect purchasers?
    Captain BATHURST: I understand that the facts are as stated in the first part of the question. I have no information as to the length of time during which this tea has been in the possession of the Home and Colonial Stores. It has, I understand, long been a practice of this and other firms to include the weight of the wrapper in that of a packet of tea, and to state this on the wrapper. As I have already informed the House, the whole question of tea prices is under consideration by the Food Controller, particularly in connection with the restriction of imports. In this particular case it appears that the rise of price preceded any announcement of the restriction.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the copy of the wrapper which I gave him weighs almost half an ounce, and represents a penny extra put on the consumer?
    Captain BATHURST: I have already asked the hon. Gentleman if he will be good enough to furnish me with any proof to show that the weight of the wrapper now exceeds that of previous months. I have reason to believe that in some cases wrappers are being increased in weight, and I should like any such cases to be brought to my notice.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will the hon. Gentleman inquire how much tea, this multiple combine have taken out of bond during the last month, and whether it is not also a fact that this multiple company have during the last year's trading made a clear profit of a quarter of a million out of the excess charge they have put on tea; and will he say what action the Food Controller is going to take in the matter?
    Captain BATHURST: I will have inquiries made on the subject.

    CROPS (DESTRUCTION).
    Mr. RENDALLasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why his statement that all tenants were to be given power to shoot game on their holdings without any time limit if the game was damaging the crops has not been carried out by Order as promised by him; whether the Order just issued permits no tenant to shoot game except after inquiry by the war agricultural committee of each county as to whether the landlord has cleared the game, and then only until 31st March if the committee gives consent; how such consent can be obtained by many thousands of tenants without delay which will be disastrous to the crops; and who is responsible for the Order issued and what is its use?
    Sir R. WINFREY: This matter is now being dealt with by the Board of Agriculture. The statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food indicated the proposals under consideration at that time. The whole matter was, however, further considered, and the Order now issued by the Board contains the provisions which, in the opinion of the Government, are best calculated to deal with excessive stocks of pheasants. The extension of the killing season is provisionally limited to 31st March, so as to secure prompt action, but, if necessary, the period will be further extended. It is not anticipated that the war agricultural committees will fail to deal promptly with all applications.
    Mr. RENDALL: Will the hon. Gentleman answer that part of my question which asks how the tenants in this country are to obtain permission from the county agricultural committees in time to make any use of this so-called privilege?
    Sir R. WINFREY: It is only a question of a day or two.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Would the agricultural committees meet every day?
    Sir R. WINFREY: The executive of the county agricultural committee meets two or three times each week.
    Sir J. D. REES: What crops are game now destroying other than the cabbage stalks which the wood-pigeons have rejected?
    Sir R. WINFREY: The sanfoin crops is Norfolk have been very much devastated.

    IMPORTED FOOD AND HOME PRODUCTION.
    Mr. BROOKESasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will consider the issue of a statement showing what ordinary articles-of food mostly come from abroad, and therefore have to be imported, and what ordinary articles of food are for the most part of home production?
    Captain BATHURST: Ordinary articles of food which are entirely imported are rice, tapioca, sago, sugar, bananas, oranges, cocoa, coffee, and tea. Those of which practically the whole supply is produced at homo are milk, potatoes, fresh fish, and fresh vegetables. Other articles of which the greater part is imported are wheat, bacon, hams, cheese, lard, and nuts, while about half our supplies of butter and margarine are imported. Other articles of which the greater part is home produced are beef, mutton, pork, poultry, eggs, and game

    WORKHOUSES AND ASYLUMS.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board what steps have been taken to make the food allowances to the inmates of the workhouses and lunatic asylums conform to the rationing allowances recently laid down by the Food Controller?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Hayes Fisher): Instructions have been issued which will bring the dietaries for inmates of workhouses into conformity with the allowances laid down by the Food Controller. Questions relating to the food allowances for inmates of lunatic asylums should be addressed to the Home Office.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Does that mean that the Government have adopted a system of rations for these institutions which are under their control, whilst they refuse to adopt it for the country as a whole?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: The Government have issued instructions so that the dietaries for inmates in workhouses may have complete relation to the regulations laid down by the Food Controller.

    PRISON WARDERS (IRELAND).
    Mr. FIELDasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that it was the intention of the Treasury in April, 1916, to place existing Irish prison warders on identical pay, as well as all the other conditions of service, with the English warders; whether he has been informed that the pay is now identical, as given in his answer to the hon. Member for Queen's County in December last; will he say why the Treasury Order has not been complied with; whether he is aware that, whilst all other conditions of service have been made identical, the pay and lodging allowances have not; and will he now endeavour to bring about a contented Irish prison service by taking immediate steps to have the pay and lodging allowances made identical for the existing Irish prison warders?
    Mr. DUKE: So far as I am aware, the intention of the Treasury in this case has been fully carried out. I dealt fully with this matter in answer to a question by the hon. Member on the 19th instant, and to another question by the hon. Member for College Green on the 14th instant.
    Mr. NUGENT: What are the reasons that these warders in Ireland should not be placed on the same terms as the warders in Great Britain?
    Mr. DUKE: The prison warders in Ireland were dealt with under a separate scheme arranged between the Treasury and the Prisons Board. So far as I know the provisions of that separate scheme have been fairly carried into effect. I told the hon. Member so quite recently that if, after watching the operation of the scheme, there seemed a necessity for making further reports I should make them.
    Mr. NUGENT: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to see one or two Members on the question and investigate it?
    Mr. DUKE: If the hon. Member fixes a convenient time I will see them.

  IRISH REBELLION.

    MAINTENANCE OF DEPORTEES' FAMILIES.
    Mr. GINNELLasked what provision has been made for the maintenance of the Irishmen deported to this country and for
    2136
    the maintenance of their dependant families in Ireland now deprived of their breadwinners?
    Mr. DUKE: No facts have come to my knowledge which suggest the necessity of such a provision.
    Mr. GINNELL: Has the right hon. Gentleman investigated these questions: Are there not amongst the cases families deprived of their breadwinners; will he take no action either in Ireland or here?
    Mr. DUKE: The answer to that question is that which I have given. I have no knowledge of any such facts.
    Mr. GINNELL: Will the Chief Secretary seek the knowledge necessary in this case to deal with it?
    Mr. DUKE: When the occasion arises I shall deal with any of the facts that come to my knowledge.
    Mr. GINNELL: Has not the right hon. Gentleman himself created the occasion by deporting these men?

  RESTRICTED IMPORTS.

    NEWSPAPER OFFICES (IRELAND).
    Mr. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the proposed further restrictions on paper will lead to the closing down of many newspaper offices in Ireland and throwing employés in these offices out of employment; and whether he will represent to the President of the Board of Trade that restrictions should be modified for Ireland in order to enable these offices to continue their trade?
    Mr. DUKE: The Royal Commission on Paper is, I am told, putting into effect stringent limitations upon the importation of paper. As these restrictions are of general application throughout the United Kingdom, I would suggest to the hon. Member that the newspaper proprietors in Ireland whose interests are affected should put themselves into communication with the Commission.

    LICENCES.
    Mr. WATTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the manner in which the import restrictions section of his Department grant licences for the importa-

    2137
    tion of articles; whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists among traders with the methods of this Department, as they find that one of their number gets licences while others do not for the same class of stuff, without any explanation of the different treatment being vouchsafed; and will he see that in future some system is adopted in that Department?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Considering the difficulties both of administration and of interpretation under which the Department of Import Restrictions has been working under great pressure during a period of nearly a year, I am glad to say that there has been a remarkable absence of complaint of the work done by that Department. If the hon. Gentleman will furnish me with specific examples of inequality of treatment as between one manufacturer and another I shall be happy to look into the matter.
    Mr. WATT: Would the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing committees of the various trades affected —Committees appointed by his Department and not by the Controller—to consider the questions arising out of the import restrictions?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I will consider the suggestion.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Would the hon. Gentleman like to consider that the remarkable absence of complaints is due to the general feeling that there is no use complaining?

    PAPER.
    Mr. PEMBERTON BILLINGasked whether, having consideration of the amount of printing paper consumed in advertising luxuries and non-essentials, he will institute a bureau for the censoring of advertisements which are not essential to the needs of the nation and the conduct of the War?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Steps are already being taken for the restriction of the use of paper in certain forms of advertising, and the whole question of wasteful use of paper will continue to be carefully watched. As at present advised, however, I am not disposed to proceed on the lines suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is this not another example of the "Wait-and-See" attitude?
    Mr. BILLING: Does the Government approve of the advertising of luxuries and non-essentials?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I am hardly competent to answer that question on behalf of the Government. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle), I do not think he will have long to wait before the Order is issued.
    Mr. P. A. HARRISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered in his scheme for economising in the use of paper the amount daily consumed in the issuing of contents bills advertising daily and evening newspapers; and whether he will consider, now that it is found necessary to reduce the size of newspapers, the advisability of prohibiting during the War the publication of such contents bills?
    Mr. ROBERTS: An Order will shortly be made under the Defence of the Realm Regulations severely restricting the use of contents bills and other similar means of advertisement.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Will the Board of Trade take into consideration when making the Order the desirability of stopping the use of paper for the purposes of trade advertisements in newspapers?
    Mr. ROBERTS: All relevant points are being taken into consideration.
    Mr. BILLING: Does that apply to all newspaper contents bills?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Certainly that is my understanding.
    Mr. BILLING: Then they are abolished entirely?
    Mr. CHANCELLOR: Are any steps being taken to prevent the enlargement of newspapers?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Very drastic steps will shortly be taken to restrict the use of papers?
    Mr. CHANCELLOR: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one newspaper is enlarging and adding to the number of pages being published?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I think my hon. Friend will see when he goes through the Order that the restrictions are sufficiently drastic to obviate any enlargement of size.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will the hon. Member send somebody round to see the stocks they have in hand?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I have already taken action in order to ascertain what stocks are held.

    MARTIAL LAW (IRELAND).
    Mr. LYNCHasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in the event of his desiring to put martial law into force again in Ireland, a Proclamation of the Lord Lieutenant would be required; and, if so, whether he will advise a return to the condition of government that existed before the last Proclamation?
    Mr. DUKE: No new Proclamation is contemplated, but I do not anticipate that the provisions of the Regulations which are in force under the Defence of the Realm Acts can be relaxed.
    Mr. LYNCH: If a Proclamation is not necessary, does not that in itself prove that martial law is still in existence?
    Mr. DUKE: That is a matter of argument. I tried to demonstrate by argument quite recently that that view is mistaken, but I appear not to have convinced the hon. Member.
    Mr. LYNCH: Is not this a sort of experiment?
    Mr. FLAVINAs a matter of fact is it open to argument?

    SUMMER TIME (IRELAND).
    Mr. CLANCYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has asked for, or will ask for, an expression of opinion of local authorities in urban and rural districts in Ireland on the policy of the Summer Time Act; and whether he will make public in some form such expressions of opinion on the subject as he has received or may receive before any proposal is made to re-enact the Statute in question, especially in view of the fact that, if the same statutory provisions are applied to England and Ireland, the departure from solar time in every part of Ireland will be much greater than in any part of England?
    Mr. DUKE: The opinions of the local authorities in Ireland as to the operation
    2140
    of the Summer Time Act were obtained and forwarded to the Committee appointed by the Home Secretary to consider the question of renewing the operation of the Act during the present year. The Committee also had Irish witnesses before them. I am informed that the Report and recommendations of the Committee are likely to be published shortly, and these will no doubt give such information as the hon. Member desires.

    GERMAN FIRMS (COLONIAL PRODUCE).
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that German firms are placing upon the market colonial produce lying to their account at the various docks and warehouses; and, if so, whether he will order the money obtained to be held until after the War?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I am not aware of the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers, but if he will let me have particulars of the cases he has in mind I will cause inquiries to be made in the matter.

    ARMY ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT, GLOUCESTER (WAGES).
    Mr. O'GRADYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the claim for an advance of 2d. per hour to the present rate of 7¾d. per hour has been rejected by the War Office when applied for on behalf of the employés working for the Army Ordnance Department at Gloucester; whether the request of the workpeople for their claim to be submitted to arbitration has also been rejected; and, if so, will he give instructions for the matter to be referred to arbitration in accordance with the Munitions of War Acts?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): Yes, Sir. According to my information the rate paid is consonant with the Fair-Wages Resolution of this House. I understand that an arbitration is about to take place as to the wages of men employed by the Munitions Department in the same locality, and I am awaiting the result before taking further steps.

    LIQUOR TRADE RESTRICTIONS (SCOTLAND).
    Mr. WATTasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the resolutions passed by all sorts of public bodies in Scotland as to the advisability of suspending the sale of intoxicating liquor there during the War period; if so, in view of these resolutions, would he consider the wisdom of suspending the sale of ardent spirits in Scotland during the War period, and giving to the liquor trade as compensation for this suspension of spirits-selling an extension of time beyond the year 1920 of the Temperance (Scotland) Act, 1913, equal to the time of suspension?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The attention of the Prime Minister has been drawn to the resolution in question. I have nothing to add to what the Prime Minister said with regard to beer and spirits in his speech in the House last Friday.
    Mr. WATT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the trade would not accept that?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: It is not a question between the trade and the Government only. The question is how it would be regarded by those affected by it.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Has any special means been taken to ascertain what is the feeling of all classes in Scotland?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: It is not very easy to find out the information to answer that question. The Government have carefully considered it, and we are not prepared to take any steps.

    SECRET COURTS-MARTIAL.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Prime Minister what causes the delay in carrying out the promise of his predecessor in office to publish full Reports of the proceedings in the secret courts-martial held in Ireland last May; and when those Reports will be available?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: A similar question in the name of the hon. Member for East Mayo was postponed at my request till Monday, when an answer will be given to it.

    DOMINIONS ROYAL COMMISSION (REPORT).
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Prime Minister if he will give a day for the discussion of the Dominions Royal Commission Report; and could the day be given before the assembling of the Imperial War Conference?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I think if there should be a desire in the House for the discussion of this Report it would be more useful after the assembling of the Imperial War Conference.

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
    Mr. BILLINGasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recent criticisms on the Members of this House in connection with Government contracts, he will introduce a measure making it obligatory upon all Members of this House to make a statutory declaration as to the shareholdings of themselves or their nominees in all British and foreign private and public companies deriving direct profits from the perpetuation of this War and lay the same upon the Table of this House?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I do not think there is any necessity to adopt the course suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is he aware that it has been decided to introduce a special Clause in the Bill dealing with this subject?

    VARIETY ENTERTAINMENTS.
    Mr. BILLINGasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the sums that are now being expended on the production of variety entertainments and revues exceed in many instances the prewar expenditure on similar objects; and whether he will take steps to limit such expenditure of national labour and capital for the duration of the War?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Producers of entertainments of the nature referred to by the hon. Member are liable to the same restrictions with regard to the supply of labour and materials as other classes of the community.
    Mr. BILLING: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it would be

    2143
    better at the present time to stop this wasteful extravagance on the production of variety entertainments and revues?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: That deals with the general question as to what are necessaries and luxuries. There may be a great deal to be said for the hon. Member's suggestion, but I am not prepared to say that theatres should be closed.

    ENEMY BANKS.
    Mr. HANSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Public Trustee refuses to claim as belonging to an enemy the balance of £754,982 or thereabouts paid by Sir William Plender to the Bank of England, being part of the surplus assets of the London agency of the Deutsche Bank, and, if so, upon what grounds; whether the Government will now consent to this balance being used to pay the British creditors of the Deutsche Bank, whose claims are urgent; and, if not, can he say for what reason?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The question whether the surplus assets of the London Agency of the Deutsche Bank are available for the satisfaction of British creditors of the head office is, as stated in my reply to the hon. Member for East Nottingham, one for the Courts to decide, and is now before them. Until that is decided the second part of the question does not arise.

    PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS (PRINTED FORMS).
    Mr. BILLINGasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he will consider the advisability of instituting a tax on all printed forms of public announcements made in the interests of private gain; (2) whether he is aware that, despite the restriction of imports of printing paper, an increasing number of works of fiction continue to be issued; whether, under these circumstances, he will consider instituting a tax on every copy of such works issued during the remaining period of the War; and (3) whether, as a means of taxing the floating population, he will consider the desirability of revising the receipt tax on hotel and restaurant bills by reducing the minimum amount necessitating the affixing of a re-
    2144
    ceipt stamp from £2 to 5s., and at the same time increasing the rate of the tax to 1d. in the 1s.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I will give due consideration to these, as to other suggestions which reach me for raising the revenue required for the public service in the coming financial year.

    METRIC SYSTEM.
    Mr. DENMANasked whether, with a view to assisting the reconstruction of British commerce after the War, he will appoint a Select Committee to consider and report how the metric system can best be applied within the Empire?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: In view of the fact that, as stated by the late Prime Minister on the 26th October last, the Committee on Commercial and Industrial Policy after the War is already considering the proposals which have been made for the adoption of the metric system in this country, I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by the appointment of a Select Committee on the subject at the present time.

    COAL PRICES.
    Mr. GILBERTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the complaints as to coal dealers not selling at the prices issued by the Board of Trade, and the impossibility of dealing with the same under the present law, he will consider the issue of Regulations with penalties under the Defence of the Realm Act to prevent this overcharging, mainly of small buyers of coal?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I understand that the Controller of Coal Mines discussed the question of small dealers' charges with the London Coal Merchants Committee on Saturday last, and that the Committee promised to make a full report on the subject. In the mean tine I am unable to add anything to the reply which I gave to the question asked by the hon. Member on the 22nd February.

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    Mr. CHANCELLORasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state, approximately, the number of tons of mer-

    2145
    chandise conveyed by rail and otherwise to and from the British Industries Fair now being held by the Department, the number of persons engaged as attendants by the Department, and the exhibitors at the exhibition?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Out of 440 exhibitors, 208 received their samples by rail. The total weight of these samples may be estimated at approximately 40 tons. The remaining exhibitors sent their samples by carrier or in their own vans, or, in many instances, brought them in cabs. Some 600 persons are employed looking after the stands at the Fair, but practically all of these are either the principals of the exhibiting firms or members of their permanent staffs. As regards the number of persons employed by the Board of Trade at the Fair, eleven officers, three women typists, and three messengers are drawn from the staff of the Department of Commercial Intelligence. In addition to these there are two interpreters and a further temporary staff of eighteen persons, including commissionaires, women typists, etc. The cleaners employed in connection with the Fair belong to the ordinary staff of the Victoria and Albert Museum and of the Imperial Institute.
    Mr. KILEYasked why, notwithstanding his decision to reduce the amount of railway travelling by the increase of fares, the exhibition branch of his Department have issued 100,000 invitations to people to come to the exhibition of toys and crockery now being held under his direction at the Victoria and Albert Museum?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The British Industries Fair, to which my hon. Friend presumably refers, is being held partly in the Victoria and Albert Museum and partly in the building of the Imperial Institute, and comprises stationery and printing and fancy goods, as well as glass, china, and earthenware and toys. The invitations to attend the Fair were issued to trade buyers, who are able at the Fair to inspect the goods of some 440 manufacturers. The manufacturers in question are by these means enabled greatly to reduce the amount of travelling which their representatives would ordinarily have to undertake in order to reach trade buyers in different parts of the United Kingdom, and I see good reason to think that the Fair in this way tends to reduce rather than to increase the total amount of travelling in the year. I would add that I attach the greatest importance to the
    2146
    maintenance of the continuity of these fairs, which have proved of especial value to British trade. My hon. Friend is perhaps not aware that similar fairs are to be held shortly at Lyons and Paris under the auspices of the French Government, and that the German authorities have maintained the fairs at Leipzig throughout the War.

    SPECIAL CONSTABLES.
    Mr. BROOKESasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of their services, members of the Volunteer Force have, so far as the special constabulary are concerned, the right of choosing whether to remain with the volunteers or in the special constabulary, should the joint duties become too obvious?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir G. Cave): A special constable may resign his office with the consent of the chief officer of police. I have no doubt that by arrangement between the military and police authorities consent would be given in proper cases.

    ROYAL NAVY (WRITERS).
    Mr. HOHLERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will reduce the minimum age limit for promotion to the rank of warrant writer in the Royal Navy from thirty-five to thirty; and will he consider whether he can increase the opportunities of promotion for the writers in the Navy?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD Of ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): It is not intended to reduce the minimum age limit at present in the manner suggested, but the question will be considered with other questions relating to the Accountant Branch at the end of the War. As regards the second part, the question of adding to the number of warrant writers is under consideration.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Why should not these people have some attention paid to them on the question of promotion?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have said that the question of adding to the number of writers is now under consideration.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I am referring to the question of promotion.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have said that several questions relating to the Accountant Branch will be considered at the end of the War.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it not the fact that all the promotions are given to people outside?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: We have certainly taken in for the period of the War many Assistant-Paymasters R.N.V.R., and were glad to get them.

    NAVAL AND MILITAEY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether it is proposed to grant through the Civil Liabilities Committee a maintenance allowance to the wives of married junior officers although these officers are already eligible for assistance in regard to obligations such as rent, rates, etc.; and on what grounds it has been decided not to grant a maintenance allowance to the dependent parents of unmarried junior officers?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: It is proposed that the new maintenance allowance should be given only in cases where there are children in the family. This particular allowance therefore will not be available either for parents or for wives unless there are children to be supported. Grants may, however, as I have previously explained, be given wherever there is serious hardship in respect of the other obligations to which the scheme applies, whether the officer is married or unmarried, and whether it is for a wife or for a dependent parent that the home is being kept up.
    Mr. SCOTT: May I ask if that answer means that no allowance whatever is to be given to the invalid wife of an officer who is incapable of supporting herself?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: No proposal of that kind is at present made.
    Mr. SCOTT: Is it being considered?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: We are ready to consider any suggestion that may be made for improving the general conditions with regard to pensions and allowances both of our Army and Navy?
    Mr. HOGGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if a date has been fixed for
    2148
    making application with regard to these allowances to officers; has it been fixed by the Treasury?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: Tie proposals are still with the Treasury.
    General IVOR PHILLIPS: Who is opposing this grant to the wives of junior officers?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: I do not think anybody is opposing it. After all, the Treasury is very hard worked, and we are expecting every day to receive a reply.
    General IVOR PHILLIPS: Is the Army Council supporting or opposing it?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: You may take it that the Army Council is supporting it.
    Sir H. CRAIK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Statutory Committee is daily receiving particulars of the-great hardship caused in those cases?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: So am I.
    Mr. SCOTT: Who is opposing the grant to invalid wives and infirm mothers?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: Nobody is opposing it, it has not yet been made.

    TRADE-CARD SCHEME.
    Mr. RAFFANasked the Minister of Munitions if he is now in a position to state whether it is proposed to extend the trade-card scheme to other trades unions who possess members engaged in munition work, in addition to the twenty-four trades unions already covered by the scheme; and, if not, whether it is proposed to amend the scheme or substitute for it some other arrangement which will work equitably amongst all members of trades unions who are engaged in munition work?
    Major Sir WORTHINGTON EVANS (Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions): This question is being considered by the Government, and a statement on the subject will be made as soon as possible.
    Mr. RAFFAN: Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea of how long it will be before the Ministry is able to come to a decision?
    Sir W. EVANS: I hope it will not be very long.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Next week?

  MILITARY SERVICE.

    ENFIELD SMALL ARMS FACTORY.
    Mr. C. DUNCANasked the Minister of Munitions whether he will obtain a Return of the number of single men who have been started at the Enfield Small Arms Factory since the outbreak of the War; and whether he can undertake that married men of long service at this factory will not be discharged for service with the Colours until the single men taken on since the War have been passed for military service?
    Sir W. EVANS: Since the outbreak of war the number of men engaged at Enfield who were known to be single was 1,678. Of these, 1,104 are still employed there. All but 286 of this number are either skilled mechanics, Navy and Army discharges, rejected men, or men in low medical categories. There were also 1,041 men not known to be married who have been discharged. In reply to the last part of my hon. Friend's question, I can only say that, other things being equal, single men are released in preference to married men.

    SPIRITS DISTILLED.
    Mr. D. MILLARasked the Minister of Munitions if he can state the amount of spirits at present allowed to be produced by the patent-still and pot-still distilleries, respectively, in the United Kingdom for potable purposes?
    Sir W. EVANS: The amount of spirit being produced at present by the patent stills for potable purposes is at the rate of about 250,000 proof gallons a month, mainly used for the export trade in gin. The pot-still distilleries are working out licences given for the present season amounting to 5,700,000 proof gallons in the case of the Scotch and 2,800,000 proof gallons in the case of the Irish distilleries; this is all going into bond for potable purposes. The quantity licenced represents a 25 per cent, reduction on the 1916 season pot-still output.

    TEACHING PROFESSION.
    Mr. MALLABY-DEELEYasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is contemplating taking any steps to make the occupation of teaching more attractive than it is at present to those who contemplate taking it up?
    The PRESIDENT Of the BOARD Of EDUCATION (Mr. Fisher): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for the Berwick Division of Northumberland on 15th February last.

    DARDANELLES ROYAL COMMISSION REPORT.
    Sir H. DALZIEL: I beg to ask the Leader of the House when the Dardanelles Royal Commission Report will be in the hands of Members, and will it be published without any omissions?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The Report will be laid on the Table to-day. It is in the hands of the printers, and will, I hope, be circulated to Members early next week. Some references affecting foreign relations have been omitted, but the Government have thought it right to send the Report without alteration confidentially to Mr. Speaker and to the Leaders of each of the political parties in the House.
    Sir H. DALZIEL: May I ask whether the Government are responsible for the omissions themselves, or did the omissions take place as the result of any representations from any foreign Government?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: We had to communicate with foreign Governments with regard to some of them, and it was at their request that some of the alterations were made.
    Mr. HOGGE: What are the ordinary Members of the House to do?
    Sir W. ESSEX: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if they will mark the special copies sent to the several political Leaders "confidential" so that they will not be allowed to communicate the contents to those who follow them ordinarily—why this preference?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I quite admit it is a new precedent, but in this case the Government thought it right in order that it might be known that the alterations did not affect the substance of the Report and were not made in any way in the interests of anybody in this country.
    Sir W. ESSEX: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that that is practically shepherding the Members of the House into groups, the Leaders of which are chosen by himself?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I quite admit there are objections to it, but we had to consider what we thought on the whole was the best course to adopt, and we think we have chosen it.
    Sir H. DALZIEL: May I ask whether it is a condition of those copies being issued to Leaders of the political parties in the House that they are to keep the Reports entirely to themselves, or are they to be at liberty to communicate the contents to any of their colleagues?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: They will be sent to the Leaders of the political parties with a note informing them that they are confidential, and I think no further action is necessary.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is it not the case that the Government are acting in breach of the statutory duty laid upon the Commission by Parliament, when the Commission was set up, of reporting to the House all the facts, and if the Government suppresses any portion of the Report they are acting in breach of the law as made by both Houses of Parliament?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: It must be evident to the House that we could not put in anything affecting a foreign Government which that Government objected to. The only alternatives were to take the course we adopted or not to publish the Report at all.
    Mr. LEIF JONES: On a point of Order. From the moment the Report is laid on the Table in dummy, has not any Member of the House the right to see the document, no matter in whose possession it is?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: The document which will be circulated will be the document with the omissions I have indicated.
    Mr. G. FABER: As this is causing much dissatisfaction, may I ask whether on second thoughts it would not be more in the public interest not to have the Report issued at all?
    Mr. RENDALL: May I ask what are the political parties in this House?
    Mr. JONES: On a point of Order. May I ask if the document to be laid on the Table is, in fact, the Report of the Commission at all? The right hon. Gentleman told us he was about to lay on the Table of the House in dummy the Report of the Commission. If he does that, is not any Member of the House entitled to see the Report of the Com-
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    mission, and not an edited Report by somebody outside the Commission?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: No.
    Mr. JONES: I am asking for a ruling on the point.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Report which is laid on the Table of the House is, of course, open to Members of the House.
    Mr. JONES: May I ask whether it would be the Report of the Commission?
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I have already said it will be the Report with the omissions which I have already indicated.
    Mr. RENDALL: So that we may know what the political parties are, will the right hon. Gentleman say who are the Leaders who are going to obtain copies of the Report?
    Mr. SCOTT: As my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) and my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) constitute a party by themselves, will they receive a copy?
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many copies he intends to distribute to the Leaders?

    Land Purchase (Ireland).
    Mr. J. P. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he was consulted by the Estates Commissioners as to the scheme made by them for the division amongst the uneconomic tenants adjoining of the lands of Monascallaghan on the McCutchcon estate, barony of Moydow, county Longford; whether he is aware that it is proposed to hand over 100 acres of the best of this farm to two adjoining graziers named Frayne and Farrell, one of whom holds 160 acres and the other 230 already, whilst a number of poor tenants holding only 3 and 4 acres of bog are being excluded; whether he is aware that resentment and ill-feeling have been aroused owing to this action; whether he will name the inspector who first inquired into this settlement; whether he is a well-known county Longford Unionist and Freemason who has made this arrangement to suit his Unionist friends; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. DUKE: The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. The Estates Commissioners have made a proposal to purchase this estate under the Irish Land Acts which has been accepted by the owner. The lands in the occupation of Messrs. Frayne and Farrell are not included in the said proposal, and as the hon. Member was informed when he called at the Estates Commissioners' offices on the 27th ultimo, the Commissioners do not propose to allot any lands to be acquired by them to these persons. The Estates Commissioners strongly deprecate the suggestion contained in the concluding paragraph of the question.

    Congested Districts Board.
    Mr. DORISasked whether the Congested Districts Board are yet in a position to give additions to the uneconomic holdings of the mountain tenants on the Kilmaine estate, near Bella, county Mayo; or what steps, if any, they have taken to relieve the congestion in the district?
    Mr. DUKE: The section of the Kilmaine estate referred to was purchased direct by the tenants through the Land Commission. The lands are held by the tenant purchasers in rundale and intermixed plots, which makes it very difficult to carry out any improvement scheme. The Congested Districts Board have acquired portion of the holding of an adjoining tenant purchaser, and are endeavouring to arrange for the purchase of the interest of another, and they propose to give enlargements to the most necessitous of the landholders on the estate who may reside within a mile of the holdings mentioned. In the meantime, the lands are being offered in conacre, pending their disposal to individual tenant purchasers.

    Old Age Pensions.
    Mr. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that within the past month a regular campaign has been instituted in county Longford to deprive old age pensioners of their pensions, many of whom have been enjoying the same since the passage of the Old Age Pensions Act; can he say by whose directions this is being done; whether he is aware that in nearly all these cases the findings of the pension committees are being overridden by the Local Government Board, and persons with no means whatever deprived of their pensions; and what steps he proposes to take to redress this injustice?
    Mr. DUKE: The Local Government Board have no knowledge of any such campaign.

    Rutland Square, Dublin.
    Mr. NUGENTasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the property owners in Rutland Square, Dublin, have to pay a special tax or rate to the governors of the Rotunda Hospital, and were given, as one of the privileges for such a tax, free access to the enclosed grounds; if he is aware that the Postmaster-General has taken possession of the skating-rink building in the square for Post Office purposes, and that the military authorities use the entire grounds for guard, patrols, etc., and, as a consequence, property owners are deprived of the privileges which they have enjoyed for 150 years; and if he will see that the property owners are relieved from paying this rate during the occupation of the square by the Government and the denial to the residents of their privileges?
    Mr. DUKE: The facts are as stated in the first part of the question. The requirements of the State in time of war cannot be subordinated to the privileges of private persons whose public buildings or open spaces are requisitioned. No protests on behalf of the house owners have been received by the Board. The rate paid by the property owners is small— 1s. 9d. per foot frontage—and provides for lighting, wages, repairs, and other things, any balance going toward the maintenance of the hospital. Legislation would be necessary to relieve the ratepayers from the rate.
    Mr. NUGENT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the lighting and other conveniences to which he has referred are for the inside of the square, and that the rates are not so small a thing, amounting roughly to £4 or £6 per dwelling; and will he make representations to the governors, who are an entirely antiquated and conservative body who elect themselves, for which there does not appear to be an Act?
    Mr. DUKE: I am not sure that the governors have power to deal with this matter, but I will look into it.

    Fishing Regulations (Cashenmouth, Ireland).
    Mr. FLAVINasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture

    2155
    (Ireland) whether he is aware that complaints have been made by the fishermen of the Cashenmouth, which is the outlet of the River Feale into the sea, as to the conditions imposed on them by the local fishing regulations; and whether he can say if the Department will grant a local inquiry into the merits of the case?
    Mr. DUKE: The Department of Agriculture have received memorials asking that the close seasons for the Feale and Cashen River system should be changed. The existing close seasons were enacted as recently as 1910, since when the local fisheries are reported to have improved. The holding of an inquiry is at present not regarded as necessary.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what he says is not a fact?
    Mr. DUKE: No, Sir.
    Mr. FLAVIN: The right hon. Gentleman cannot speak from personal experience—I can. The condition has not improved. These local people want an inquiry, and will the right hon. Gentleman say under what conditions the inquiry can be held?
    Mr. DUKE: I am sure the hon. Member will bear me out when I say it was he who asked me for information, and not I who asked him.
    Mr. FLAVIN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman on what authority he states that since the last inquiry was held the condition of things has improved? That is the right hon. Gentleman's statement—not mine.
    Mr. DUKE: The authority is that of the Government Department whose business it is to know. If the hon. Member gives me any reason for supposing that I have been given any inaccurate information, I will deal with that matter.
    Mr. FLAVIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to say that for the last fifteen years the fishing there has never been worse than last year?

    British Museum Reading Room.
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether arrangements can now be made for the reading room at the British Museum to be open to readers on at least one evening in the week for the
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    benefit of those whose work makes it impossible for them to use it during the day?
    Mr. BALDWIN (Lord of the Treasury): The present arrangement under which the reading room is closed each day at dusk was introduced at the beginning of last year in order to reduce expenditure on lighting, heating, and attendance. As the hon. Member will realise, the need for economy is as imperative now as it was then, and the Treasury would not feel justified in authorising additional expenditure being incurred for the purpose suggested in the question.

    Drunkenness.
    Mr. CURRIEasked the Home Secretary (1) whether, in view of the prevalence of alcoholic recidivism, he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to confer further powers upon magistrates to deal with it by prolonged detention orders for curative treatment; and (2) whether he will introduce legislation to enable magistrates to sentence men repeatedly convicted on charges of drunkenness to perform labour tasks of public utility, such as scavenging, instead of imposing nominal fines?
    Sir G. CAVE: A Bill dealing with the subject of habitual drunkenness was introduced by the Home Secretary in 1914, but had to be dropped on the outbreak of war. The subject is too difficult and controversial to be taken up again at the present time.
    Mr. CURRIEasked the Home Secretary whether the statistics of Police Court records as at present compiled afford information as to the number of charges of and convictions for repeated and habitual drunkenness; and, if so, how many convictions for offences ranking as a fourth offence and upwards have been recorded in London, Liverpool, Newcastle, and Glasgow within the last five years?
    Sir G. CAVE: Statistics of the nature indicated by the hon. Member were formerly procured so far as possible as regards England and Wales, and given in Table VI., column 14, of the Annual Volume of Licensing Statistics, but they have been discontinued since the War, in order to save labour and printing. I regret, therefore, that I am not in a position to supply the hon. Member with the figures for which he asks.

    Metropolitan Police.
    Mr. BILLINGasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the disaffection at present existing in the Metropolitan Police Force as a result of the friction arising from the members being unable to obtain representation of their grievances; and if, under these circumstances, he will recommend the appointment of a Parliamentary Commission, with power to summon witnesses, to inquire into and report upon this disaffection; and, in that event, if he will make a public announcement that any police officer or any other public servant giving evidence before the Commission shall not be penalised for so doing?
    Sir G. CAVE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The other questions, therefore, do not arise.
    Mr. BILLING: Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that no friction exists in the Metropolitan police?
    Sir G. CAVE: I do not believe that there is any such disaffection.

    Women Police Patrols (London).
    Mr. FERENSasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the alleged scandals in connection with certain districts, such as Waterloo Road, he will appoint women police for street work of this kind, with full powers of arrest?
    Sir G. CAVE: I doubt whether the course suggested would be effective in attaining the desired result. Work of this kind requires a long experience of police duties and considerable physical strength in addition to special training and instruction. The Commissioner of Police, however, is employing women patrols for certain auxiliary work connected with these matters and speaks highly of them.

    Vaccination.
    Mr. WINGasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board whether the unvaccinated children in England, in towns in which large numbers of such children have accumulated, have shown remarkable freedom from smallpox; and whether the fact that there has been less small-pox in England during the period of the increase in the number of unvaccinated children will lead him to take steps to increase still further the number
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    of such immune children by prohibiting prosecutions for neglecting to vaccinate?
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: There has happily been a remarkable freedom from smallpox throughout England in recent years, but I cannot accept the hon. Member's suggestion that this freedom is due to a decline in the number of children vaccinated.

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. WASON reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. J. W. Wilson to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Criminal Law Amendment Bill).
Mr. WASON further reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had agreed to the following Resolutions:
That any member of the Chairmen's Panel may be and he is hereby empowered to ask any other member of the Chairmen's Panel to take his place temporarily in case of necessity.
That, in the absence of the Chairman of the Chairmen's Panel, the Panel may be convened at the request of any two members of the Panel. Reports to lie upon the Table.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Sir DANIEL GODDAED reported from the Committee of Selection; that they had discharged the following members from Standing Committee A: Mr. Butcher, Mr. Wilson-Fox, Mr. Cecil Harmsworth, Mr. H. P. Harris, Mr. Stewart, and Viscount Wolmer; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Frederick Banbury, Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, Mr. Boyton, Sir Stephen Collins, Sir Charles Hunter, and Sir John Rees.
Report to lie upon the Table.

ECCLESIASTICAL SERVICES (OMISSION ON ACCOUNT OF WAR) BILL [Lords],
Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 13.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer now say what business will be taken next week?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: On Monday we pro-pose to take Army Estimates (Votes A and 1).
  On Tuesday, Supply, Supplementary Pensions Estimate, in order that the Royal Warrant may be discussed. We hope also on that day to get the Report of the Ministry of National Service Bill, and, if there be time, perhaps some of the other small Orders.
  On Wednesday we shall take the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Scotland Division of Liverpool.—["That, with a view to strengthening the hands of the Allies in achieving the recognition of the equal rights of small nations and the principle of nationality against the opposite German principle of military domination and government without the consent of the governed, it is essential without further delay to confer upon Ireland the free institutions long promised to her."]—[Mr. T. P. O'Connor.]
  On Thursday, Supply, Civil Service Estimates, Vote on Account.
  Mr. G. LAMBERT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to take the legislation relating to the agricultural proposals of the Government?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I cannot yet name a date for that.
  Mr. CLANCY: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take Order No. 3—Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill—to-day?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: No, we do not.
  Mr. PETO: Will there be a later date fixed for the other Votes of the Army Estimates?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Yes, a later date will be given for that.

SUPPLY

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1917–18.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  MR. FORSTEK'S STATEMENT.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Forster): It is my duty to make this Motion in order that the Army Estimates may be considered in Committee. For the third year in succession the Estimates are submitted in a token form. Never have such small figures carried graver significance. Much has happened within the last twelve months, as to some of which I shall have a few words to say presently; but before I come to the few observations with which I have to trouble the House, I would make some reference to a particular event that has occurred during the last twelve months. I refer to the loss of Lord Kitchener, the great soldier whose name will ever be remembered when the story of this War is told. Men greater than myself, tongues more eloquent than mine, have paid tribute to his memory and to his great services. To what they have said I shall not attempt to add anything; but, speaking as I do to-day as the representative of the War Office, on the occasion of the introduction of the Army Estimates, I could not pass by in silence the loss of so great a man.
  I fear that on many a home there has fallen the iron hand of fate, and that in many a family there is grief—proud and silent grief. To those families the Prime Minister promised, while he was Secretary of State for War, some special mark of record and sympathy. Since he made that promise, steps have been taken to redeem it. A Committee consisting of Departmental representatives, four Members of this House, two Members of the other place, assisted by the Directors of the Victoria and Albert Museum and the National Gallery, and the Keeper of the Department of Coins and Medals at the British Museum, have been considering the form of this memento, and it is hoped that they will make definite recommendations shortly. I should like to say that this, of course, will not take the place of the War Medal, which will be

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  issued to the next-of-kin of those who have fallen, as has been customary in former times.
  The House will expect me to say a word or two about the general military situation. I am afraid there is not very much I can tell them that is new. It is one of the difficulties of making a speech of this kind in present circumstances that all tellable secrets have already been told either in the newspapers or by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. My right hon. Friend gave us a survey of the situation earlier in the Session, and nothing of great public interest has occurred either at Salonika or in East Africa since he spoke. But that is not the case with regard to either France or Mesopotamia. For the last two or three months our operations in the Western theatre, to within a few days ago, have been necessarily confined to raids and minor attacks on the Somme Front, while the French Army has similarly undertaken a series of raids which have met with considerable success. In the course of our operations heavy losses have been inflicted upon the enemy, more than 3,000 prisoners have fallen into our hands, and ground of considerable importance has been won. During the past few days, however, and as a result of our continuous pressure on the Ancre Front, the enemy has retired on a front of about twelve miles. Our troops have already advanced some two miles in the area north of the Ancre, and have taken possession of ten villages and of several important positions to which the enemy has hitherto clung with the utmost determination. Up to the present time, as is well known, the enemy has impressed upon his troops the necessity of defending every position to the last and of fighting for every inch of ground. In view of such training, this retreat cannot but have an unfavourable effect both upon the enemy's troops and on the German people—when they know-it. At the same time it is probable that the enemy has retired not merely as a defensive measure, but with the object of saving his strength for a great blow on one or other of the Allied fronts. There is every indication that he will make a supreme effort to end the War in his favour this year—an effort which can f only be successfully met by a corresponding determination on the part of the
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  British Empire and of its Allies. I am confident that determination and that effort will be forthcoming to the full.
  4.0 P.M.
  In Mesopotamia important results have been obtained by General Maude's operations. Assuming the offensive on the 13th December, on the right bank of the Tigris, our troops, by dint of hard fighting, had gradually cleared the whole of this bank by the 14th February. General Maude then undertook an attack on the Sanna-i-Yat lines on the left bank and, having engaged the enemy's attention in this quarter, commenced preparations for the crossing of the river in the Shumran Bend. The crossing began on the 23rd and on the 24th our troops had occupied the ridge across the neck of the Shumran Bend. In the meantime, further progress had been made with the attack on the Sanna-i-Yat position, and the Turks, attacked in front and in rear, made a hasty retreat, leaving behind them considerable quantities of stores, tents and equipment. An immediate pursuit was undertaken by our Cavalry, Infantry, and gunboats. On the 25th the enemy's rearguard was attacked fifteen miles north-west of Kut and driven back, and the pursuit was resumed. On the 26th and 27th fighting was proceeding thirty miles from Kut. The enemy, who was very hard pressed, abandoned his pontoons and some of his artillery, and the ground was strewn with arms, ammunition, tents and equipment. General Maude states that the remnants of the enemy forces are badly shattered, and will only reach Bagdad as a disorganised mob. Over 2,300 prisoners have been secured since the 24th, and the Turkish losses in killed and wounded have been very heavy. Full details have not as yet been received as to the number of captured guns. Since the commencement of our offensive, on 13th December, over 5,000 Turkish prisoners have been taken, and their total losses are estimated at considerably over 20,000. These results would have been impossible had it not been for the energy and forethought with which our previous preparations had been carried out, especially as regards the improvement of our railway and river communications. General Maude had spoken in the highest terms of the stubborn determination and fighting spirit of the troops, and the endurance and dash shown by all ranks as well as the skill and resolution dis-

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  played by General Maude himself in this brilliant series of operations, are worthy of all praise. We may face the future with ever-growing strength and confidence, in no way underrating the power or the purpose of the enemy but with full faith in our ability to beat him. The troops trust their leaders, the leaders trust their troops, and we trust both.
  To pass to the subject of recruiting, for the past twelve months recruits have been provided mainly under the Military Service Acts, and the numbers obtained have fluctuated considerably from time to time. For the first period there was a satisfactory flow, which fell off, however, as 1916 drew to its close. Since the end of last year the numbers have been better; but the fact remains that we are approaching, if we have not reached, a stage when the competing claims of the military forces on the one hand and industry on the other must be decided with sole regard to national as distinct from local and individual interests. The tribunals have had a difficult and disagreeable duty, and for the most part they have done it well. Faced as we are with the serious situation disclosed by the Prime Minister on Friday last, there is need for continual and further effort. We have created vast Armies, and we have supplied them with munitions and supplies of all kinds. But that is not the end. We have got to maintain them. In spite of the large numbers we have obtained recently, we need still more men, and we need them now. The call to duty sounds clear as a bell to every man and woman to enrol either in the fighting or in the industrial army.
  As far as the Royal Flying Corps is concerned, the supply of personnel, both officers and men, has been maintained, although the provision of skilled mechanics in sufficient quantities has presented difficulties, which I think have been overcome. The importance of this cannot be overstated, for while, of course, troops of all kinds contribute their quota to the success of the whole Army, none do more valuable or more conspicuous work than the Royal Flying Corps in all the theatres of War. We all recognise their intrepid daring and indifference to danger, which is only equalled by the skill with which they carry out their perilous duty, and the value of their work both to the Army in the field and to the safety of our people
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  at home. The training of officers in flying has been very largely expanded, and the main difficulty that we have had to face in this connection has been that of providing suitable aerodromes and buildings. It may interest the House to know that we are establishing new flying schools in Canada and in Egypt, and I should like to take this opportunity of acknowledging the valuable services of the large number of Colonial pilots in the Flying Corps. There has been some difficulty and delay in obtaining the necessary aircraft and their appurtenances, in spite of the assistance which has been given to us by the Ministry of Munitions, but I hope these difficulties have now been overcome. The formation of the Air Board, with extended powers, and the entrusting of the practical business of the supply of aircraft both for the Navy and Army to the Ministry of Munitions will, it is hoped, give the Air Services that priority which their importance demands. The policy of instituting an Air Board has for some time had the firm support of the Army Council, and although the new arrangement has been in force only for a week or two its influence is already having effect. It must be remembered, however, that whatever the efforts of the Air Board and the Ministry of Munitions, they cannot be expected to show at once a greatly increased output. Anti-aircraft stations have been installed at various points, and though the actual buildings are only a few huts and offices in each case, there is much work involved in connection with electrical connections and other accessories which is not always a matter of easy arrangement in isolated country districts. I am not going to boast about what might happen in the event of renewed Zeppelin raids, but we have profited to the full by the experience that we have gained.
  We have had to construct new depots on an enormous scale for collecting and distributing ammunition and stores of all sorts in many places. The size of modern armies, the increasing weight of the vehicles and the guns now used in the field, the use of new materials in trench warfare, have lent additional importance to their proper storage and distribution. There has been nothing more remarkable than the growth in the size and weight of the guns and howitzers which are now used in the field. This and the conveyance of stores and supplies of all sorts necessary for armies on so great a scale has called

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  for the construction of railways in the various theatres of war to an extent which I think is not generally realised. Obvious considerations prevent me from giving detailed figures, but taking all the theatres of war together, we have a programme of some 4,000 miles of railway track. Locomotives are numbered by the hundred, and railway wagons and operating personnel by tens of thousands. No one can wonder that, in face of such vast developments as that, it has been necessary to curtail travelling and traffic to some extent. I think when people at home realise that the sacrifices of comfort and convenience are bringing to the theatres of war those railway facilities without which an advance of big armies cannot now be conducted, they will be content to put up with any difficulty or inconvenience that they may be caused. Great expansion has also taken place in inland water transport—ships, barges, tugs, wharves, quays, warehouses, everything that is required for increasing the operation of the inland water transport service on all our fronts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when moving the Vote of Credit, referred to the enormous increase in the up-river traffic in Mesopotamia. He reminded us then that the up-river traffic of January, as compared with last July, has increased by 1,000 per cent. The great development of railway and river transport played a large part in the success of the operations to which I referred earlier.
  While I am speaking of Mesopotamia, may I refer to a subject which engaged a great deal of attention last year, namely, the condition of the Medical Service. Since the Estimates were introduced last year the War Office has become directly responsible for the medical arrangements in that theatre of War. We have received frequent reports from the medical and sanitary authorities of that force. The special Sanitary Committee made an exhaustive examination of the conditions existing there, and the general conditions now existing may be regarded as fully satisfactory. During the summer there was necessarily some considerable sickness, but the admission ratio has steadily diminished since then, and I think the health of the Army at present may be considered satisfactory. An abundant supply of nurses and other medical personnel has been furnished for hospitals in that area. These hospitals have recently been visited by a representative from the War Office,
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  who reports that they are not unequal to any of the hospitals which we have at the other fronts. In France, Salonika, and Egypt the general condition of affairs is satisfactory. A great strain has been at different times put upon medical resources in the various theatres of War, but the difficulties have been met. We had to contend with a good deal of malaria in East Africa, owing to the exceptionally unhealthy climatic conditions in which we have had to carry on our operations. I think nothing in this War is more striking than the triumph of science over disease, wholly upsetting the experience of former wars. One of the most remarkable phenomena is the almost total disappearance of enteric fever, that dread scourge which in former wars has decimated our Armies even more effectually than the efforts of the enemy. This is the more surprising when one considers the vast numbers of men, their density on the ground, and the poisoned condition of the soil, especially in France.
  I think it will interest the House if I give them the last weekly returns in respect of typhoid from the various fronts? They are the last weekly returns of the numbers in hospitals suffering from typhoid.
  Sir W. ESSEX: Compared with any previous return for any other war?
  Mr. FORSTER: I am giving the last weekly returns. In France four cases, Salonika nine, Egypt three, Mesopotamia eight, making a total of twenty-four. Perhaps I may give a few more figures in this connection. The figures I am now giving relate to France. The number of cases of typhoid fever among British troops in France up to the 1st November last year was 1,684, para-typhoid 2,534, and of indefinite cases 353, a total of 4,571 cases of the typhoid group of diseases. Compare that with what happened in South Africa. In South Africa there were nearly 60,000 cases admitted to hospital, and 8,227 deaths. That is to say there were four times as many died from this disease in South Africa as there were cases in France up to the 1st November last.
  Mr. TENNANT: And an Army of much vaster proportions.
  Mr. FORSTER: Yes, with an Army infinitely larger. The admission ratio of typhoid fever amongst the troops in France who have not been protected by inoculation, is fifteen times higher than

  2185
  amongst those who have been inoculated, and the death ratio seventy times higher. I think the bald narration of figures like these bears eloquent witness to the debt that we owe to the medical service. At home during the past year a system of convalescent hospitals, command depots and orthopædic hospitals has been developed and extended. Arrangements have been made with the Ministry of Pensions, by which the problem of the training and treatment of the discharged soldier will be more effectively dealt with, and arrangements have been made to link up the treatment in the military hospitals with that afforded to discharged soldiers on the out-patient system under the local committees of the Statutory Committee on War Pensions. The strain on the medical department in providing accommodation for the sick and wounded from the various fronts overseas has been very great, but we have received, and we continue to receive, the most valuable assistance from the voluntary hospitals which have been established throughout the country by persons to whom we are deeply indebted. The system of utilising the services of the members of the Voluntary Aid Detachments has been highly successful. Those ladies serve abroad in large numbers, and they are highly appreciated by the general body of the nursing profession. A system of Voluntary Aid hospitals has been invaluable in linking up the military medical system with the large number of sympathetic workers amongst the civil population, and I am glad to take this opportunity of saying how deeply indebted we are for the assistance we have received.
  One word in reference to the British Red Cross Society. Their work is too well known to need any encomium. Suffice it to say, that the great resources of the society have been ungrudgingly placed at the disposal of the medical department on many occasions. A special committee has been recently established by that society—upon which are representatives both of the War Office and the Ministry of Pensions—for dealing with certain classes of disabled soldiers, such as neurasthenics, epileptics, and other cases requiring institutional treatment. This still further strengthens the link between the military hospitals and the civil institutions. Before I pass from the medical service, may I say one word with reference to a question that has been engaging a great deal of attention lately, the question of
  2186
  venereal disease? I think it should be generally known that the venereal rate in the Army to-day is no higher than it is in ordinary times of peace. The absence of statistics for the general population in pre-war days renders it impossible to say whether the total number of cases of venereal disease in the Army is higher than in a corresponding portion of the civil population of corresponding ages. We are making every effort to reduce the rate still lower than it is. The National Council for the Prevention of Venereal Disease has given us great assistance by providing lecturers specially chosen to lecture to troops in camps and barracks. These lectures have been largely attended, and have been very much appreciated by those who have attended them, and I am sure that a great deal of good can be done by lectures of that kind.
  I come now to one or two other questions upon which I wish to touch very lightly. The first is the question of pensions. As the House knows, a new Department has been created to deal with this important problem. Increased provision will be made for the disabled soldier and for the widows and dependants of those who have fallen in the War. I do not dilate upon that, because we are to have an opportunity of discussing it next week, and a discussion upon that question will be more appropriate on that occasion. The House is already aware of the increase that has been made in the separation allowances in respect of non-commissioned officers and men, and of the steps we are taking to provide a maintenance allowance for the families of married officers below the rank of major, in cases of necessity. I think there is general agreement that something of that kind was necessary. I had been in hopes that we should have been in a position to make a more detailed statement as to when the new allowance would be brought into force. I hope it will not be more than a day or two. In view of the man-power situation, we have continued and developed the employment of women in substitution for men wherever possible. Steps have been taken during the last few weeks by the Army Council to create an organisation for the enrolment of women for certain employment in France in order to release men in those employments for duty at the front or for other work. Generally speaking, the forms of employment are clerks, motor

  2187
  drivers, cooks, and female labour of various kinds. Every effort is being made, by the appointment of experienced women supervisors, to safeguard the well-being of the women so employed, and the War Office is in close touch and co-operation with the Director-General of National Service and the women's organisation, under the direction of Mrs. Tennant. In speaking of the women's part in this War—and it is great and growing—I cannot omit a reference to the brave and devoted service of the nurses. Amid all the dangers and sickening horrors of modern war they carry on their work of mercy with a patient cheerfulness and a quite courage, a willing self-sacrifice and supreme skill that has won universal admiration.
  Complaint has been made recently that the War Office is unsympathetic, or even antagonistic, to the claims of agriculture, so far as men are concerned. It is very difficult, especially for the War Office, whose prime conceren is and must be the provision of men for the Army, to hold the scales even between the two competing claims. We have done and we are doing what we can to meet the needs of agriculture as far as possible, and I do not doubt that if we are not doing enough, we shall be made to do more. We have been met during the past twelve months with one or more crises. In the spring, owing to the weather, there was great need for an increased number of men getting in the spring corn. We sent for short furlough some 15,000 men at that time. At the beginning of August came a heavy demand for men for clearing the harvest, and at that time we sent 30,000 men. These men were distributed to individual farmers through the medium of the Labour Exchanges. We had a great many letters gratefully acknowledging the services that these men rendered to individual farmers. Of the 30,000 men that were sent out during the harvest of 1916, I believe that not more than 1,500, and probably not nearly so many, were returned by the farmers as being useless. On the other hand, many farmers have stated that, although some of the men did not know very much about the business when they arrived, they put their backs into the work and shortly became very valuable and gave satisfaction. We are now making further efforts to assist. As my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War, in the House of Lords, said last night, we
  2188
  are sending men who profess to be skilled men—we have no means of judging whether they are skilled or not in these matters—in considerable numbers to assist in agricultural work at the present time. We have already sent, I think, 800 men who profess to be ploughmen and horsemen to Scotland, 100 to Northampton, 100 to the South-West of England, 900 elsewhere, and the Commands themselves have about 2,000 men out. I do not know the precise number. These men are from the Home Forces. They are sent out on furlough till the 15th April, subject to twenty-four hours' recall in case of emergency. Fifteen thousand Class W men have been promised by the War Office as substitutes. That is in addition to the 15,000 who are being found by the Home Forces. These men are being organised into agricultural companies, and will be placed at the disposal of the war agricultural committees in the localities where labour is most urgently required. The whole substitution branch of the War Office will be handed over to the Director-General of National Service on the 1st March.
  There are three observations which I would like to make as to matters which militate against the success of the scheme for the employment of soldiers on the land. The first is the dislike of the farmer to employ what is constantly represented to him as the riff-raff of the Army. That is not really justified. We are not able in every case to send men who have great skill in agriculture, but, at any rate, they have the willingness to go, and I am quite sure that they will do their best and, in the majortiy of cases, will repay employment. There is the further dislike of the farmer to pay unskilled labour a weekly wage which must now amount to a minimum of 25s. We cannot help that. We must do our best with it, and I hope that he will be satisfied with what we are able to send. There is also the difficulty of feeding and housing these men properly. Farmers must realise that unless they are able to house and feed these men properly they cannot expect to get the best work out of them, and that it would be only natural that the men should want to come back to military service.
  Mr. FABER: Have you anything to say about prisoners?
  Mr. FORSTER: Arrangements are being or have been made for the employment of a large number of German prisoners. Where they have been em-

  2189
  ployed I am told that they have given very satisfactory results. The House will forgive me if I say a word or two about the supply services. Of course, with an Army of such vast proportions, it necessarily follows that the supply services are on a correspondingly great scale. My Noble Friend the Secretary of State has decided to give us some extra assistance in dealing with them. I think that the House will be interested to know that he has invitel Mr. Andrew Weir, a man of great business experience, who is well known in the West of Scotland as well as in London, to aid the Department in these difficult problems. I am glad to say that Mr. Weir has accepted the invitation and will join us immediately. He proposes to make himself thoroughly familiar with the working of the various supply branches before offering any suggestions. That seems to me a very businesslike method. When he has done this, we shall be able to consider, in consultation with him, what definite functions in the official hierarchy he could best fulfil. I am quite sure that we shall welcome his assistance. I may remind the House that we have already the assistance, of a number of eminent business men. Lord Rothermere has become the Director-General of the Army Clothing Department, with the management of the Pimlico factory under him; Sir Eric Geddes, Sir Guy Granet and Sir Sam Fay—all leading lights in the railway world, are now part of the War Office organisation.
  Mr. WATT: Can you get any of the men out of this House?
  Mr. FORSTER: We gladly welcome the assistance of these great business men. At a time like this when the need for economy is so urgent, it may interest the House to know something of what has been done to prevent avoidable waste. Waste is the enemy, as the Prime Minister told us the other day. With regard to the saving of rations, last year an improvement was made in messing arrangements and the instruction of cooks, and about 52,000 cooks passed through a course of instruction, and with improved appliances, and so on, there has been a substantial reduction in the amount of the rations, thereby saving large quantities of food. The reduction of the bread ration of troops is to be carried further by the reduction of 2 ozs. Among other food supply measures we have made some variation in the rations in the interests of the troops,
  2190
  by the introduction of sausages, brawn, frozen fish, rabbits, venison and other things, in substitution for the regulation beef and mutton. I need hardly say that the sausages have proved exceedingly popular with the men. Briefly, it may be of interest to know that recent developments have effected large savings of public money, amounting, I think, speaking from memory, to something like £4,000,000 a year, without in any degree adversely affecting the stomach of the soldier.
  The prisoners of war ration has been revised, so as to bring the essential articles as far as possible into line with Lord Devonport's voluntary ration for the civil population. Steps have been taken in all the theatres of war, and especially the more remote ones, as far as possible to make the forces self-supporting. For instance, in Egypt potato cultivation for the use of the troops is being largely encouraged and extended. It is the same with regard to Salonika and Malta, while in Mesopotamia there are something like 3,000 acres of vegetable garden under cultivation. Arrangements have been made with India to export large quantities of grain for the support of the nearer expeditionary forces, which will save a large amount of shipping through very dangerous parts of the ocean and will effect a very large saving of general work. In the case of troops on the lines of communication in France, the older officers are being largely substituted for younger men, thus freeing the latter for more active employment. Female labour is being substituted for men on clerical work and driving light cars. Speaking generally, I may say with confidence that a strict watch is being kept on any economies which may be possible in the Directorate of Supplies and Transport.
  One word with reference to a subject which used to be brought to my notice and was pressed on me repeatedly twelve months ago, that was the waste of food, by throwing away things that ought really to be preserved. We have given very special attention to this. In former days broken meat and other table refuse were generally thrown into the swill tub and sold for a relatively small sum, or else buried or burned. This refuse is now collected and sorted. All the fats are collected and sold to soap-makers, who extract the crude glycerine required by the Ministry of Munitions for the manufacture of propellant explosives. Special

  2191
  plants have been established, one in this country and one in France, and the results have been so satisfactory that others will shortly be erected. The importance of this development—I would direct the attention of the House to this point—will be realised when it is stated that fat contains 10 per cent, of glycerine, and 1,000 tons of glycerine, which is the prospective rate of annual output from the troops, provides propellant charges for approximately 12,500,000 18-pounder shells. I may add that the glycerine is sold to the Ministry of Munitions at about £50 a ton. whereas if we bought it refined in the United states, we should have to pay. I believe, as much as £240. That is a development which reflects great credit on General Landon in the Quartermaster-General's Department, and the officers concerned, several of whom are Members of this House. May I express the hope that the civil population will emulate our efforts and save in a similar fashion. We have established huge workshops in France for the cleaning and repair of equipment and clothing. A regular system has been started and is in course of development for the salvaging of every kind of article on the battlefield or its immediate neighbourhood. The question of economy in the use of timber has been taken up by the Field-Marshal, Commander-in-Chief, and Sir Bampfylde Fuller has been appointed to take charge of this special department. He will exercise all the influence that he can command, and will receive the full support of the Army Council in his efforts.
  One other topic with which I wish to deal very briefly is the question of contracts. The present War differs from all previous wars in point of magntiude and complexity, and in no direction is this better illustrated than in the economic organisation which has been called into existence for equipping and feeding the Armies in the field. Needless to say, many difficulties have been encountered, many obstacles had to be overcome, and each additional year of hostilities brings with it great problems in relation to the supply of raw materials. At the beginning of the War the industrial organisation of the country was strained to the utmost in order that the needs of our own Armies and our Allies might be adequately provided. The mechanism of production had to be overhauled, expanded, and adapted to the new functions which it was called
  2192
  on to fulfil. Sources of supply had at once to be taken in hand, with a view to-their utmost utilisation and development. New sources of supply had to be encouraged and opened up. I want to give one instance, typical of many. It is a very simple illustration. We were hard put to it in the beginning to get a sufficient supply of horseshoes. We went to Canada and we tried all America, bat we could not get enough. Then we organised the farriers all over the country, and the result has been successful. At the beginning of the War the output of horseshoes in this country was 50,000 per month; now it is 1,500,000 per month; and we are able to supply the whole of our requirements without going abroad.
  I read in the "Times" of yesterday, I think, some figures indicating the enormous quantities of material that we have had to provide for our own and the Allies' requirements since the War began. I have some figures showing the enormous scale on which we have to make provision at the present time. We have had to provide some 25,000,000 gas helmets; we have had to supply no fewer than 250,000,000' sandbags to the Allies; we have had to manufacture 105,000,000 yards of khaki cloth, and 115,000,000 yards of flannel. If you take these two commodities together you find that we have had to produce 220,000,000 yards of these goods. That is a stupendous figure even in these days when the million has become a unit of arithmetical expression, and, indeed, these enormous figures seem really to cease to have any meaning. We have made 111,000 miles of cloth and flannel, or, to put it in a more simple form, enough to go four and a half times round the earth at the Equator. In dealing with commodities on that scale, we have been driven to take drastic steps, revolutionary and very far-reaching steps. We had to get the goods, and in order to do that we have had to organise production; and to organise the production of clothing and equipment, we have found it necessary to introduce an elaborate system of control in various industries—the boot and leather industries, the woollen industries, and other textiles. The control began with the purchase and distribution of the raw material, audit extends all through the various processes of manufacture up to the finished article. The main object has been to secure a larger output for military purposes, at the cheapest cost. But it has also been neces-

  2193
  sary to provide for the release of men from the Army, for the transfer of labour from non-essential to essential production, the encouragement of the export trade, and the reduction of imports.
  With regard to man-power and production, our own experience shows that the best results are obtained by establishing local committees, representing the Government, and employers and employed; and these committees consist, in each case, of four representatives of the employers and four representatives of the employed, with the local officers of the Recruiting Department and the Contracts Department. The chief advantage of these local committees is that the various interests concerned are able to meet for discussion of their various points of view, instead of looking upon one another with suspicion and jealousy. But even more important than this is the close co-operation between the Government and the trade which such a committee renders possible. Instead of leaving the problems of release, substitution, and transfer of labour to be settled by the strongest pull in a perpetual tug-of-war, a considered attempt is made to weigh possibilities and devise ways and means for a satisfactory solution by the aid of detailed statistics and practical knowledge of the technicalities of the industry. The result has been that the demand of the Recruiting Department for the release of men is being met without impairing production. Women are being gradually introduced to work which has been hitherto done by men, and substitutes adapted for particular jobs are being provided by the military authorities without causing friction with organised industries. Further than this, the trade unions have themselves assisted in the transfer of labour to firms where its employment would be most valuable in the national interest. In general it may be said that the presence of employers and employed on the same committee creates a healthy rivalry in subordinating private interests to urgent national necessities.
  It is clearly essential to the maintenance of production for military requirements, and for our export trade, that manufacturers should be certain of receiving sufficient supplies of raw materials at reasonable prices, and it is therefore most necessary to safeguard the limited quantities of raw materials which can be imported against unnecessary inflation in price and diversion into non-essential
  2194
  channels of manufacture. It may be said, "What are you doing, how are you carrying out this policy, which may be right and reasonable in the circumstances, and what use are you making of business, men?" We are making abundant use of business men. We are regulating, coordinating, and controlling, and we should be foolish if we did not call to our aid the very best men we can command in each of the industries concerned. It is inevitable that there should be some dislocation in the first instance, some soreness and sense of grievance on the part of those affected; but, speaking broadly, I am proud to say that they have responded fully to the call made upon them, and their loyal co-operation has been of great value both to the Army and to the State. Over and above the policy of calling in all the leading men of each industry concerned, so that we might have the best possible guidance and advice in dealing with this great and difficult question, at the end of 1915 I established an Advisory Committee on Contracts, composed of men in commanding positions in the business world. I regret to say that we have recently lost the services of three of those distinguished men, but I am glad to think that we have lost them only because they have become members of the present Government. They are the President of the Board of Trade, the President of the Local Government Board, and the present Postmaster-General. But I think that is eloquent and striking proof that we have got the best business brains available in order to guide us in framing our industrial policy. It is impossible, ire the course of a single speech, to trace in detail the varying needs and fortunes of our Armies in various theatres of War, or the work which the War Office is doing as a whole. The story is one or great difficulties steadily faced and overcome, steady and continued progress. But although our needs and fortunes may vary from day to day, there is the factor that never wavers, and that is the dauntless courage, the invincible resolution, the enduring fortitude of all ranks of the Imperial Army, and the steady and unflinching determination of our people throughout the Empire to carry the War to a successful conclusion.
  Mr. TENNANT: I should like to be allowed to congratulate my hon. Friend on the valuable statement he has made, and the eloquent terms with which it was

  2195
  concluded. The House will agree that the presentation of the Army Estimates is always an important matter, and, speaking as one who has presented them on two previous occasions, I am in a position to say that it is always a difficult one. When I see my two hon. Friends representing the War Office on this occasion, the Under-Secretary of State (Mr. Macpherson), and the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Forster), I think the House should be congratulated on the representation of the Department in this House. I have been very closely associated with the Under-Secretary of State, and a tie was formed which bound us very closely together through the strenuous years when I represented the War Office in this House. As to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, his athletic power, skill and strength have filled me with admiration for more than thirty-five years, and continue to do so. I am, bound to say to this House that from my friendship and association with him during a very strenuous and important period of the War I derived the very greatest benefit. If I were asked which of my two hon. Friends should present the Army Estimates, I should be inclined to say, "How happy could I be with either." The outstanding feature of the statement which the Financial Secretary to the War Office made seemed to me to be the enormous extent of the business and operations controlled by the War Office; and if one figure is more eloquent than another, it is the figure which my hon. Friend gave with regard to horseshoes. I believe that when the history of this War comes to be written, there is nothing which deserves more honourable mention than the manner in which the supplies have been found for the Army—food, clothing, quarters for the men, stores of all kinds, and forage for animals. I can speak with greater freedom on this subject because in the whole course of my War Office duties during the last four years, I had no responsibility for that Department, and therefore can all the more freely offer my congratulations to those who have been responsible for providing those supplies. The Quartermaster-General deserves the greatest praise, and I would also like to refer to the admirable services of Sir Charles Heath and General Crofton Atkins.
  5.0 P.M.
  There has always been a certain fly in the sea of ointment; the fly was waste,
  2196
  and the hon. Gentleman has told the House the steps which have been taken, and the steps which it is contemplated taking, to reduce that waste, and no one welcomes that part of his speech more than I do. I am well acquainted with the fact that my hon. Friend has during the whole period of his service at the War Office directed especial attention, and given most careful work to that particular department of the War Office administration, and I know that he will agree with me when I say that he has received active and zealous support of Sir Charles Harris. If there is one thing which is remarkable and no less gratifying it is the health of the troops. That brings me to the statistics given by my hon. Friend in regard to typhoid, which I think were most striking, and to the absence of epidemic disease of any kind. This is very remarkable. My hon. Friend quite properly laid stress upon the even more remarkable fact that it is not only that the administration of the Army from a medical point of view is rendered more difficult by increased numbers—because all forms of administration must be clearly affected by that— but in the question of sanitation great aggregations of men must produce more difficult conditions, and it is very remarkable, therefore, that there should be this marvellous immunity from epidemic disease. My hon. Friend did not tell us what the causes are—I think they are fairly well known—of the admirable state of affairs as we find it to-day. I should like, in passing, to pay a tribute to those eminent bacteriologists who have been giving their services during the whole of the War—in many eases freely—and I would also attribute the immunity from epidemics largely to the willingness of the troops to be inoculated. I think these are the principal factors which have contributed to this success, and I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Haggerston (Mr. Chancellor) had been in his place to hear what my hon. Friend had to say on this subject. I think the House will agree that the person more responsible than any other for the happy state of affairs is the Director-General of the Medical Services (Sir A. Keogh). Let us give honour where honour is due. I do not believe that in his case any honour could be too great.
  My hon. Friend, in the course of his speech, did not specially mention the

  2197
  Territorial Force, although I know he is aware that that force occupies a very special place in my affections. I observe that an Order has recently been issued altering the scheme of promotion within the force. I do not want to go into the details of this technical and complicated matter, but I understand, broadly, that the Order gives promotion on the same terms as in the Regular Army, and substitutes permanent for temporary promotion. These are ends to be sought, and I am glad that they should be achieved. There have been in this House, and certainly outside, fears to which expressions have now and again been given that the Territorial Force has not always been treated with the justice which it merits, I am bound to state, speaking with the greater freedom I now have, that I think sometimes those fears were not wholly without justification.
  I am aware that my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War is very much animated by the, same love of the Territorial Force as I entertain for it, and is most anxious to see that these fears should be absolutely without foundation. In other words, he is anxious to see justice done, and in conversations which we have had together, we have agreed there is no method in which that object could be better achieved than by providing for the members of the Territorial Force a larger share in the higher commands than they have yet received. I know there are difficulties in such matters—difficulties which will be apparent to all hon. and gallant Gentlemen. The business of war, after all, is not really so unlike other business, not so unlike peaceful crafts which require a technique which must be learnt before a man can master his business. That technique cannot be very rapidly acquired. Therefore, I sympathise with the difficulty of the Army Council in distributing a larger share of the higher commands among officers who are considered not to possess in a sufficient degree the technique of the business of war. I would remind the House that the Territorial Force, with the Army, has within its ranks now some of the finest brains of this country, and I trust that the Army Council will see that full advantage is taken of these fine fellows, so that these splendid thinking machines may be used to the best advantage.
  I cannot leave the subject of the Territorial Forces without a word of farewell to my old friend Lieut.-General Sir
  2198
  Edward Bethune, who was the Director-General—the technical head of the force of which I was the titular head. Our relations were always cordial, and I should like to pay a tribute to the great services and good work which Sir Edward Bethune did for the Territorial Force, and for the County Associations throughout the length and breadth of the country. I am glad to think that a thoroughly competent successor has been found in Lord Scar-brough, to whom we wish all success in the tenure of his important office.
  Dealing with another branch of the Army—the Flying Corps—my hon. Friend paid a glowing tribute to the bravery of these young fellows who risk their lives in the flights they make, and I should like to join with him in that tribute.
  Coming next to the difficulties alluded to by my hon. Friend, arising out of the rival claims of the Army and of industry to men, I notice that the difficulty of reconciling these rival claims was dealt with in the speech of the Secretary for War in another place last night. In truth, there must arrive a time, if you carry the business sufficiently far, at which these claims become irreconcilable, and, indeed, they are irreconcilable when you consider the vastness of the operations described by my hon. Friend—when you consider the figures he gave as to the numbers of miles of railway made out in France—4,000 miles, I believe.
  Mr. FORSTER: That is the number on all fronts.
  Mr. TENNANT: Four thousand miles in all the theatres of war. Just imagine the labour required, first to make the railways, then to maintain them, to supply and run the rolling stock, and to constantly carry troops, munitions, food, clothing, and other stores. It is very remarkable, indeed. Enormous numbers of people are required for the work. I say you cannot reconcile these claims because they are irreconcilable, and you have therefore to consider which are the more imperative claims and to put aside individual consideration. I know there are gentlemen inside and outside this House who hold strongly that the War Office has not been sufficiently sympathetic to the claims of essential industries, and particularly of agriculture. Indeed, I believe the Board of Agriculture has had to fight to keep its end up. I notice that in a statement which has been issued, and which was repeated by my hon. Friend

  2199
  to-day, it is proposed to give to agriculture two batches each of 15,000 men. My hon. Friend said they would be men skilled in agriculture, but it must be remembered that the Army Council have no means of ascertaining whether they are or not. He was rather inclined to plume himself on the fact that last August only 1,500 men were returned as unfit for performing the work of husbandry—1,500 out of 30,000! The percentage, it is true, is not great, but still 1,500 is a very considerable number to be returned as really unfitted to do the harvesting work for which they were specially selected. I believe there was one case of a man in Scotland who, the harvest not being quite ready, was asked to do some weeding, and objected because he said the work would have to be done in a quagmire and he would get his feet wet. That kind of man is not very useful to farmers, and I should like to think that some means can be devised for selecting only men who are really suitable for work on the land.
  I come to another branch of industry, and a very important one, particularly in view of the shortage of tonnage at the present moment—I refer to the dock industry. The House will remember that about two years ago the War Office set up a Dockers' Battalion at Liverpool, largely under the influence of my Noble Friend the present Secretary of State for War, and I should like to ask my hon. Friend if any additions to that battalion are contemplated. In connection with labour, of course, the National Service scheme is of great importance. No doubt the employment of women with the Army, both at home and abroad, marks an important new departure. I am not going to dwell upon the question of women's labour in connection with the National Service Department, because that is not my business, and, indeed, I do not think it would be in order, but I do happen to know that much of the time of those who have the control of this particular Department is given to trying to secure adequate safeguards for the welfare of the women, both at home and abroad. That, of course, is very important. It is desirable there should be confidence in this Department, otherwise you will not get the right sort of women to come forward.
  I pass from the labour problem to that of finance. Three new departures have been mentioned by my hon. Friend. First,
  2200
  there is the allowance for married officers, and that is a very important one, particularly for the junior married officers who are unable to provide maintenance for their wives and families when they are on active service, and I am glad to think that the Civil Liabilities Committee will be given funds for the purpose. I assume, though my hon. Friend did not say this, that the work of the Officers' Families Fund, which has been most admirably conducted by Lady Lansdowne, will thereupon cease to have existence. Is that so?
  Mr. FORSTER: No.
  Mr. TENNANT: I take it, then, that this will be supplementary to it; but I think we cannot pass over in silence the admirable work conducted by Lady Lansdowne's department, and I am sure one would like to convey the thanks of the House to Lady Lansdowne and her workers who have so courageously and efficiently administered that fund. In regard to the increased separation allowances mentioned by my hon. Friend, they will bring relief no doubt to many struggling persons, and to hon. Gentlemen who are interested in the subject in this House, and particularly to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), who I am sorry to see is not now in his place, but I dare say my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) will not omit to inform him of what I have been saying. In regard to the transfer of pensions to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions, who takes the treatment of disabled soldiers out of the hands of the War Office, I think the House will await with interest the statement to be made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, because we all feel that there is a special duty which falls upon all of us and a really lively concern for the welfare of the disabled soldier, and that, we have some responsibility for his future. When I try to estimate the administration of our great Army and the Department responsible for that almost Herculean task, my own association with that Department has been so long and so intimate, and such close and affectionate ties have been formed with some, at least, of my colleagues on the Army Council, and I have been jointly responsible for so much of the work and even policy of that Department, that of course I must own quite frankly that perhaps the dispassionateness of my judg-

  2201
  ment may not be above, suspicion, and therefore my criticism is not quite so judicial as my right hon. Friend sitting near me would have it to be. But if I appeal to my hon. Friends opposite for improvements in Army administration, therefore a fortiori, I hope, it ought not to fall on deaf ears, and I do not think it will.
  I think there is a feeling abroad that the statements made by Ministers are not always carried into effect in the manner in which we should like them to be. I have suffered from that myself. I believe one of the cases in point is the employment of boys in the Army, and in this connection I miss very much, as we all do, our old friend Sir Arthur Markham, who was tireless in his devotion to that particular cause. I have made promises, when standing on the other side of the Table, that boys under nineteen should not be sent to the front, or at any rate should not be used in fighting, and I believe it to be genuinely the desire of my hon. Friends, as it was mine, that they should not be so employed. But in spite of all that they do get employed there, and they do themselves, I think, contribute to the fact that they are so employed. In other words, they make misrepresentations to the authorities. I would ask the Under-Secretary if he would press the Adjutant-General's department to give strict orders that this instruction as to the age of nineteen should be rigidly enforced.
  To come to another point, I must own that I have never been quite happy in my own mind as to the system of administration of justice in the Army. My hon Friends will not have forgotten the strange case of an officer in a Highland regiment who was charged before a court-martial for an offence and dismissed the Army, an offence which I think it is highly doubtful that he ever committed. I do not want to go into that case, because I think it probably lingers in the memories of my hon. Friends, and particularly the mysterious sequel to it. I do not know that I have any very particular suggestion to make. The only contribution I can make to the subject would be this, to ask the Army Council to exorcise increased vigilance in regard to courts-martial and to ask that the greatest care should be exercised in the choice of officers to sit upon courts martial. You have in the Army at the present moment in France, and I imagine
  2202
  in other theatres of war, numbers of men trained in the law, and I think it might be a very good plan that no court-martial should sit without at least one member of the court being a man trained in one of the learned professions accustomed to sift evidence. I do not know if that would be possible or not, but I would ask my hon. Friend if he will consider it. It has never been our custom on Army Estimates to deal with matters of high policy, and I have not, therefore, touched upon any topic of that kind to-day, but there is one subject which seems to me to be of such supreme and urgent importance concerning our supplies, not only of our troops abroad, but of our own people at home, that I make bold to ask my hon. Friend a question upon it. I wish to ask him about the garrison at Salonika, whether he can announce any change since the new Government came into office, cither in the numbers of that force, or in its higher command, or in the objective which is set for it. I am sure the House would welcome a statement just to show that the Government were exercising the utmost vigilance to secure economy—economy in man-power, which is of great importance, and, of not less importance, economy in tonnage for the carrying of supplies to that force.
  I would say to my hon. Friends, the Financial Secretary and the Under-Secretary of State, that I hope in the time that lies before them, heavy as I know their work is, that they may be spared some of the trials which fell upon the shoulders of their predecessors; and, indeed, the military situation as I view it to-day, and as it was put before us by the Financial Secretary, seems to be of good augury and full of hope for the future. Particularly should I like to join with the Financial Secretary in congratulating our old Etonian friend, Sir Stanley Maude, upon the brilliant victory and the great success which has attended his operations in Mesopotamia. In France, also, one success follows hard upon the heels of another, and I think our people are grateful to Sir Douglas Haig for these incessant and spirited blows at the enemy which have been delivered with such precision and force. I believe the nation trusts Sir Douglas Haig and trusts Sir William Robertson. The nation has great expectations for the near future, and I feel that there is almost a passionate longing outside for the speedy and successful termination of this War.

  2203
  It is not indeed surprising that there should be such a longing when one considers that all the pleasures, joys, and amenities even of life, whether you live in town or in country, are gone. That is to put it on the lowest scale. Everyone is poorer, except those who produce war material, and the taxation and the cost of living are very heavy burdens upon all of us; but those are the natural results of war, and, I presume, are inseparable from it. If one penetrates below the surface of life and comes to the graver considerations which move men, I think I am free to assert that throughout the King's Dominions there is scarcely a threshold uncrossed by the Angel of Death, there is scarcely a household unmoved by anxiety, anxiety for father, for son, or for brother in daily, or even in hourly peril of his life. So I say, can it be surprising that there should be this longing for peace? And yet the nation is calm, and withal determined. The restrictions announced by the Prime Minister, who no doubt will demand considerable sacrifices from large classes of our people, have been received by our people with a calmness which, I think, might almost be mistaken for indifference, but there could be no greater mistake. The calmness, the serenity, of our people is a sign of their inflexible resolve, no matter at what cost, to pursue their great purpose to its end.
  Colonel Sir MATTHEW WILSON: I have listened to the speech on the Army Estimates by my hon. Friend with great interest, and as I am home on a few days' leave I should like to take this opportunity of paying a high tribute to the excellence of the arrangements of the War Office and the Admiralty with regard to the feeding and transport of troops engaged in distant overseas expeditions. I think I am entitled to speak on this subject, as the fortunes of war have led me with my regiment to three different theatres of operations—namely, the Sinai Peninsula, Gallipoli, and Salonika. As we know, the establishment of divisions which went from France to the Mediterranean had to be reconstructed on totally different lines. Heavy draft horses and heavy wagons bad to be eliminated, and in their places we were given pack-mules. The Remount Department also, when we were in Egypt, produced more than 50,000 camels, as well as huge numbers of horses and mules for troops, not only in
  2204
  the Sinai Peninsula, but also against the Senussi. What I think is most gratifying is that no change in the formation or equipment of a unit has ever caused any delay in the operations.
  Let me now for a moment speak on the difference in the numbers of pack animals in a division in France and in Salonika. In France the number of pack animals for a division is 145. A division may be sent from France to Salonika. When it gets there it is put on the equipment, Part IV. of the Salonika Field Force for war. This lays down their establishment at 5,109 pack animals. This means that we have only thirty-six short of 5,000 pack animals to deal with as well as 5,000 pack saddles to be handed out. The Salonika front presents a most difficult problem for the feeding and equipment of troops. Before the War it was considered a very difficult operation to feed two divisions in peace manoeuvres on one road. In Salonika the Sixteenth Corps are fed by one road. Their front line is over 16 kilometres from Salonika. The Sixteenth Corps not only consists of three divisions, but also of one mounted brigade. It is a single road full of hairpin turns, the surface of which is very bad and continually under repair owing to the ravages of heavy mechanical transport. This road is the only possible one for all services and all evacuations. But it is not my particular portion of the front. On our front the great difficulty is the transport of food and ammunition from the railhead to our line. The word "road" hardly describes the narrow tracks in many places. In many places it is knee deep in mud, up which no transport can go. Pack mules only are used, and then by night. If they come up by day in sight of the enemy the convoys are shelled.
  These mules, I must say, are the admiration, not only of ourselves, but of our Allies. They are the best transport animals I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. They come from America, and average about 14 hands 3 inches in height. They are very sound and very hardy, and at the end of a long journey, in which they have been carrying a full amount of provisions, 160 lbs. deadweight, they will come in as fresh, to all appearance, as when they started. The mules themselves are also amenable. I should like to speak of the way they bring food to us. The word "ration" does not hold the terror to soldiers in Salonika that it does for the housekeeper here. They bring us most

  2205
  excellent meat of a most excellent quality which we get five days in every week. The other days we get a ration of cheese or jam, with bacon almost every day. There is a daily ration of bread. In times of blizzard or snow we get an issue of cocoa or rum. As a result of all this care I think hon. Members would agree, if they saw the troops, that they certainly have every reason to praise their pastures. In respect of forage—and, of course, I refer principally to hay, which, owing to its bulk, is a most difficult proposition—the foresight of the War Office has to some extent relieved the pressure on home freightage by not only buying up the hay crops of Mesopotamia, but also obtaining other supplies as far as possible from Egypt and India. They have also, as my lion. Friend has already told us, planted in huge areas potatoes for the use of the troops. I am sure hon. Members will agree that this speaks volumes for the untiring energy and efficiency of the War Office and the vigilance and co-operation of the Admiralty. Napoleon's maxim that "an army marches and fights on its stomach" is as true to-day as it was when it was spoken. It is, therefore, a pleasure for me to dwell on the way in which difficulties have been triumphantly surmounted where the well-being and comfort of the troops has been at stake.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: We have all listened to my hon. and gallant Friend's account of the efficiency of the supplies on one part of the front, about which we rarely hear much, with very great interest. When we realise how distant are those troops from our home base, we shall all feel gratified to know that at least the troops in those parts are well fed, because, after all, feeding is the best road to happiness with the soldier. I should like to say one or two words as to what was said by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tennant) who followed the Financial Secretary on Territorial officers and promotion It is only right, as a Territorial officer, that I should say I believe that this criticism should not be generally levelled throughout the Army. On the other hand, I think that there are undoubted and numerous instances where Territorial officers have been passed over and where recognition has not been given to their services at the front. As I say, this may not be general, but the fact remains that
  2206
  there is not quite sufficient consideration shown in the Army to the fact that a very large number of officers in the New Armies, and in the Territorials—as has been said to-day, "the brains of the whole of this great Empire"—because at first appearance they do not appear to have all the ways and traditions of the old Regular officer, are of first-class quality. It does not necessarily follow, provided such an officer has been in modern warfare for a sufficient length of time, that he has not picked up just as much of the science of modern warfare as some other officer who may have been out of the Army for many years. There is just another word I should like to say, following what has already been said by the Financial Secretary and the right hon. Gentleman, and that deals with the question of the maintenance of officers. I only offer this suggestion. I hope it is not going to be made difficult for an officer to say, "I am in distressed circumstances." Anything of that kind is going to be most invidious. For my own part, I wish the Government would frankly recognise the extraordinary increase in the cost of living, which has been recognised in every other walk of life, and allow junior officers to feel that they have not to proclaim to the War Office or to-anybody else the fact that they are in distressed circumstances, and need special advantages or consideration—because that is what it amounts to!
  I rose, however, for one object, and that was to deal with the question of manpower. A graceful tribute was paid by the Financial Secretary to the memory of Lord Kitchener. All of us must remember how much we owe to Lord Kitchener for having told us what we were up against. The fact that his mind was able to grasp what other people's minds did not grasp to grasp the enormous thing in front of us, was a cause for gratitude. We ought to remember him for his words of wisdom which caused us calmly to face a struggle of this great length. I think it is necessary for us to try and conjure up in our minds once more the Kitchener touch, to-look at things in their proper proportion-with regard not only to to-day, to six months hence, or one year, but to consider any possibilities for the future.
  The two great problems we are up against at the present time undoubtedly are the questions of man-power and food. Food, of course, includes the submarine menace, the building of the mercantile marine, and of destructors—if that is the

  2207
  right name—for the submarines. Both of these problems, that of man-power and food, come from the same cause, a complete lack of organisation at the start for anything like the scale of' things with which we have had to deal. With our haphazard methods we had been relying upon the patriotism of the people, regardless as to how to discriminate the patriotism of our countrymen, and regardless of the effect upon the industries of agriculture, munitions, and shipbuilding has brought difficulties which might and ought to have been foreseen. Although these great errors have existed in the past, it seems to me that we ought to have learned from these blunders, and there is no reason whatever now, two and a half years from the commencement of the War, that we should not be able to repair them and look ahead with more discrimination than in the past. It is in order to assist the Government in this respect that I am going to offer one or two suggestions.
  First of all, in regard to the question of agriculture—of which, I dare say, the Secretary of State for War must be heartily sick—I understand that the War Office are in process of supplying some 30,000 men, surplus to the Army, for agriculture. Elaborate care should be taken to free no men from the Army who are likely to make good soldiers, unless they are highly skilled agriculturists. Whatever their military value, if they are really highly skilled agriculturists they ought to be released at once in order to instruct the large number of unskilled agriculturists who are now being attracted to the land. Whereas it takes three months to make a home defence soldier it takes at least three years to make a highly-skilled agriculturist. There are in the Army, I believe, large numbers of men of defective sight, men who are quite fit—I have known frequently cases of the sort—but who are unable to march the pace of the ordinary Infantry regiment. They are quite fit to work on the land. Directly, however, they find their muscles extended to a pace of three miles an hour they find that they are out of the race. These are types of men who obviously ought to be weeded out and put into these agricultural companies. We are still hearing of numerous cases of men quite unfit remaining in the Army, and who are still masquerading in uniform. The War Office has no right to keep those men in uniform
  2208
  unless they are fit for some kind of fighting. It is a very great expense, and it is extravagant. It is mere window-dressing. Those men ought to be restored to agriculture, or to some other essential industries, at the very earliest possible day.
  I cannot object to the claim that we should take men from agriculture. I am, however, suggesting very sincerely that only the right men should be taken. It does seem to me that the desire which is, I believe, almost general in this House should be carried out and that the President of the Board of Agriculture should have the same power given to him as the Minister of Munitions in regard to this question. He ought to be able to stop going into the Army any man who is regarded as essential to agriculture, and upon whose skill the lives of very large herds and flocks may depend. He ought to have the power to say, "No, this man is really essential to the continued existence of the agricultural industry." Having said that much, I should like to add that I think there are many cases in the past where agriculture has not played up. There are certain districts in the country where, there is no doubt whatever, some of the tribunals have been rather inclined to permit men to remain on the land who really wore not essential. It is in consequence of this that we have got this conflict of opinion. It is up to the farmers now, who for the first time are being properly treated by the State, and not being made the shuttlecock of party politics, to do everything in their power to yield up such labour as is superfluous. At the same time, it is up to the War Office to encourage the idea, that skilled agriculturists should be retained in agriculture, and should, as far as possible, be returned to agriculture.
  In my opinion more men are required for the Army than we at present see in view. I have held the opinion for some time that new divisions ought to have been formed in order to make that superiority which the attacker must have if we are really going to smash the enemy in the near future, and I fully recognise that, if this great offensive is going to take place to which we are all looking forward this year, it is quite impossible to form any new offensive divisions. But it does seem to me that it is possible with a little adjustment, a very little reorganisation, to form new divisions, which could hold the line in France in those parts which are distant from where the offensive is taking

  2209
  place. It is no new principle, having been adopted by most of the military powers of the world, and it stands to reason we have a very large number of men in the Army who are really unfit for the prolonged strain and stress of an offensive, but who could march a short distance up to the trenches, who have been trained as so many soldiers in this country have been for a long time, and are fully capable of holding their own in those trenches. I suggest that it would be desirable to endeavour to form some six divisions of this description, and if the War Office were to get to work on this matter soon, I believe they would find that these six divisions would be a perfect Godsend in a very few months, for reasons which I will point out. The first reason is that we are bound to consider the possibility of a very prolonged offensive, it may be stretching right through the summer. My humble view is that once that offensive is taken, if we are to end the War, it must be pressed right through in order to get a decisive action this year. But if we are unable for any reason or other to carry on that prolonged offensive, if because we have not the reserves behind us, through any weakness on our part now, then our soldiers and sailors are going to suffer from our criminal neglect. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Tennant) told us that there was a passionate longing among the people of this country to end the War—yes, to end the victorious War; but I venture to think that there is one way we shall not end the War, and that is if we are not ready to make every effort now to prepare the Reserves which will be essential in these coming months.
  My suggestion is that these six divisions could be formed out of the troops at present in this country. It may be objected that we should be depleting the Home Defence Force. My answer to that is, first of all, that the number will be made up by my proposals for fresh recruits. The second proposition I am going to make is that, behind the Home Defence Army, we should organise the Volunteers into a great Beserve Defence Army. Thirdly, I submit that the greater pressure you put upon the enemy on the Western Front the less likelihood there is of invasion of this country. And, fourthly, the total number of men in the United Kingdom is undoubtedly far more than is necessary to deal with any possible raid which the enemy can organise against us, and if all
  2210
  the various drafting units of this country do not fall into a definite scheme of defence organisation, then I cannot congratulate the War Office. Obviously here you have the chance of making your great drafting units in this country fulfil the two roles—one the role of drafting a very large proportion of trained men, and the other the function of falling into a definite scheme of organisation, which ought to be complete if it is not. Let me give one instance. Supposing there are 200 depots and training camps in this country, and supposing there are 2,000 men in each of those depots. Fifty per cent, of those men are probably fit to fight. Each depot ought at very short notice to be able to produce 1,000 men. A skeleton organisation of brigades and divisions ought to be complete for the mobilisation, if necessary, of those units, and by these means alone we could form at least fifteen divisions of Infantry which ought to have their allotted place in the defence of this country. When I am told that the Home Defence Army is now well able to resist any possibility of a German invasion—when I am also told we must not deplete it, I reply that, unless this great reservoir behind is part of our scheme, then we have failed, and the earliest moment we succeed in organising that matter the better. I know it may be said, "Oh, yes, but there are great difficulties. Where is your artillery coming from for the extra fifteen divisions?" It is inconceivable to me, unless the Fleet is crushed and defeated, that the enemy will ever be able to land heavy guns in this country at the time of a raid, and field artillery has never yet driven British troops out of trenches, and never will.
  As regards the question of transport, I believe you have only to earmark your wagons and horses in this country, and you can greatly eliminate that problem by making a great storage of bully beef and biscuits, which you can have all along behind your defensive system in this country, and so cut down your organisation to that extent. I have lived on bully beef and biscuits for over a month, and nothing is better for figure. I have said that I agreed that there would be an immediate outcry from the military authorities. "If you take six divisions of this description, how are you going to make good your supply?" The Government can at once make up their mind to call out every fit single man from eighteen to twenty-two or twenty-three immediately. Then every fit man from twenty-two to twenty-six should

  2211
  be immediately warned that three months hence he will be called up, and then from twenty-six to thirty, five months' hence; from thirty to thirty-four, seven months hence, and so on. That is method. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well he has got to do it in the near future, but it is not fair, and it will not be fair, to come down on industries in this country who are dependent on these men—very often what I may call "key" men—if you do not give fair warning. If given fair warning, there is no doubt the difficulty can be overcome. In three months' time, if these proposals were adopted, you would be able to release these divisions I have suggested to hold the line in France.
  One word as to why I suggest this question of defensive divisions. It is because— and it may not always be recognised in the higher circles—the modern effect of war is such on the mental condition of troops, that you cannot go on after a certain period without resting the men whom you are throwing into the fight. I will give one example. In the Somme offensive I knew a brigade which went into the attack, and was practically attacking under a shell barrage probably something like fifteen to twenty days, going back, so to speak, to rest, but in front of our guns, and then going again into the inferno, this happening over and over again. Then the troops were taken out to hold the line at another part of the front. Great as these men are, wonderful as they have proved themselves, they cannot recover, they cannot be really happy if you take them out of the attack and put them into another part of the trench to hold the line. I want to see these divisions—perhaps not all "A" men—holding the line, so as to give the attacking troops rest out of the shell zone; and that is possible if we adopt some such suggestion as this. Then I believe your divisions will come again and again; they will recover and be fresh and happy troops. If only the troops have two, three, or four weeks' rest you may be certain that, not only are they not reluctant to go back to fight, but are willing and desire to do so. If you are going on right through the summer with the offensive there is no time to delay in this matter, and, if contemplated, it ought to be done soon.
  6.0 p.m.
  My last proposition is that we should make the volunteers in this country a real thing. At the present moment we have this great human force prompted by
  2212
  patriotism, actuated by the very highest motives, but which is nothing but a sham, a snare, and a delusion. The hon. Gentleman opposite nods his head in the negative, but I can assure him that at the present moment the volunteers themselves feel that they are not treated seriously. I am very glad to think that the hon. Gentleman has something in mind which is going to turn the force into reality. There is no reason whatever why the volunteers, if any effort were made to turn them into an organised force, should not become quite as efficient, or even more efficient, than the Territorial Force at the outbreak of war, and some Territorial units were in the line of the first defence of Ypres, right at the beginning of November, when it was thought it would be quite impossible for them to be ready. How have the Volunteers been treated? They have no rifles; they have no trained adjutants. This question may be exercising the hon. Gentleman now, and possibly in the last few days, but up to now there have been no trained adjutants, no ammunition, and no organisation. I know a great many have dummy rifles, and that a few rifles have been handed out. I know also that some have bought their rifles; but, generally speaking, there is no organised armed force of Volunteers which possibly could be used for the defence of this country in the event of a raid, and there is absolutely no reason why, when the National Service policy comes to natural fruition, namely, a compulsory state—because, after all, all this volunteering is sheer nonsense—we should not have an organised force. Why always rely on patriotic people, instead of placing the same burdens on everybody? Do we not want to win this War and end this misery? If so, why not have the courage to provide the armed men to go and assist their trained comrades in the trenches in France? If we grant the fact that Infantry can hold the line in this country with the Artillery we have at our disposal, I venture to say that with the organised drafting units in this country, plus your Home Defence Army, plus the Volunteers—and I would change that most vicious name at once, and call them the Imperial Reserve Army, and let them feel they have a real part in this scheme—there is no-doubt any invasion of this country would be very short-lived, and I have no hesitation in saying the enemy would be driven into the sea. In order to make that a success, I suggest that the Volunteers require

  2213
  the aid and assistance of all wounded invalid officers in this country who can possibly be got hold of. I am not suggesting they should be paid full time, but quite a lot of men who have come back from France are only too anxious to give any service they possibly can to their country, and here is an opportunity. Give them their out-of-pocket expenses and a quarter pay, or something of that kind, but use those men in order to take advantage of the splendid material which undoubtedly exists in the Volunteers. It may be said that Volunteers contain a great number of old men. The answer to that is that they are no older than the Turks or Austrians fighting in this War, for there are numerous Turks and Austrians fighting of the same age. I should like to say, in conclusion, that I believe one touch of imagination with the compulsory element behind it and you are going to find this Volunteer force the great solution of this man-power problem, and then you can get rid of the hobbling men who are disguised as soldiers, and you can send them back to civil employment. If you are going to make the defence force a success you want a great organised reserve force behind them. It is sometimes suggested that we will not provide enough men, because we dare not risk further losses. People who have tender hearts think so and say, surely they have done enough, but it is precisely because they have tender hearts that I want to appeal to them now, because the only way to end this conflict is really to be prepared, now we have reached the absolute climax of this contest, to see it through. If you want to make certain of allowing the War to drag on for this year and next year, and possibly another year after, that is what will happen if we do not put in our top effort in a few months' time. I hope the House will do all it can to persuade His Majesty's Government—I do not think they need very much persuasion—and to encourage them from now onwards and have no half measures, but take all necessary steps to secure and earmark every single man in this country of military age in whatever occupation he may be concerned, in order that you may not make the fatal mistake of not having the necessary drafts to fill the gaps in France.
  Captain GUEST: I take this opportunity of congratulating the Financial Secretary to the War Office upon the admirable statement which he has made this
  2214
  afternoon. Eighteen months ago I listened to a somewhat similar statement, but during the intervening months my lot has fallen outside these shores. Coming back after that interval of time one is almost staggered and hardly able to realise the enormous strides and labours which our War Office has undertaken and achieved in those intervening months. The transport services very often receive little praise, and I was glad to see them receive their due share this afternoon. I refer to the Transport Department in particular, because one knows how little they appear in the limelight, and yet how little one can do without them. One is almost afraid to discuss the military needs of this country and the War generally without complete knowledge of all the difficulties, but yet if suggestions emanating from hon. Members of this House are accepted in the spirit in which they are put forward, one is encouraged to make an effort in that direction. I am afraid I have suffered since the beginning of the War from something approaching to pessimism, not temperamentally, but from experience, and so one cannot but dwell upon man-power and whether it will be forthcoming or will not.
  It seems to me that there are only three demands that should at this time be made upon the able-bodied members of the nation. The first, naturally, is the maintenance of our divisions at their full strength in the field, involving as it does completely trained and prepared reinforcements. The second seems to be the making and supplying of munitions; and the third, which appears at the moment to be attracting a great deal of attention, although it seems rather late in the day, is that of food production. I ask the House, and I ask the representative of the War Office here to-day whether there is any justification whatsoever for any man or woman working on any other industries? After an absence of a year one finds this great Metropolis apparently very much the same, and the only difference I can see is that you get three courses instead of four. Below the surface there may be more going on, but if you take the streets of London you find people manufacturing and selling an immense volume of commodities which are of absolutely no value and which are no contribution to the War. If you walk down the main thoroughfares of London you find jewellery being sold, mended, and manufactured, you find musical instruments being sold, and although these may seem very small things I believe they are

  2215
  indicative that even yet we are not thoroughly appreciative of the seriousness of the situation. In South Africa it was brought to my notice by a colonist that in this country we still seem to find time and money to waste upon racing. When you come to discuss the question of racing, you find that the supporters of it will say that it is only steeplechasing. Now if ever there was a vicious form of racing it is the second and third-class steeplechasing, and yet from day to day it is allowed to go on in this country. I run the risk of being looked upon as almost morbid in my desire to fix the attention of everyone upon the necessity for absolute sacrifice in regard to pleasure and luxuries, and I would go to the extent of prohibiting all forms of public amusements. You have only to go to the extravagant revues any day you like, and you will see thousands of pounds being wasted on scenery and dresses. We are now being asked to volunteer for the purposes of industrial labour, and if all these unnecessary industries were closed, you would find a great many more people coming forward to put their names on the volunteer roll.
  Dealing with the question of manpower from another point of view, I would like to ask the War Office to consider whether we are really getting the fullest value out of all the labour which is available in different parts of our Empire. I believe I am right in saying that the troops in France at the present time, instead of getting the rest that they deserve and the training which is necessary between their terms of service in the trenches, are frequently turned into coolies to do manual labour in some form or another. I believe most of this labour can be done by natives from different parts of the world. During the last year there have been two or three debates dealing with this subject, chiefly from the point of view as to whether you can produce black fighting troops. I think the first and greatest use you can put your native dependencies and possessions to is to produce labour to save your white troops in the field. The principle seems to be accepted now that the white man should do the fighting, and I do not see why it should not also be accepted that the black man should do the digging. There is no doubt that they do this work extremely well, and the Britisher has a disinclination to dig unless he is made.
  2216
  I do not think India has made its proper contribution to the War. I admit the difficulties of transport, and I agree that it is no good looking back and finding fault. But I would like to be satisfied that a determined effort is being made to remedy that situation. India has a population which is surely big enough to provide a few hundreds of thousands of able-bodied, strong and capable, well-disciplined men who could do a great deal of this coolie work behind the lines. I have had some experience in this respect in Africa, where we have had a large number of native troops who have had to be put to all sorts of jobs, including railway construction and the laying of telegraph lines, in which work the Indians have shown themselves capable and trustworthy. In this connection there is a suggestion which I would like to put forward. If it is a fact that large bodies of our Indian troops for one reason or another are not, perhaps, as suitable as white troops to undertake equal burdens with them in the front line of attack and defence, surely the organisation and training they have gone through might be turned to good account if those regiments were made into labour battalions.
  Already India has probably been much more closely investigated from this point of view than Africa, but I think in practice there is a reservoir not quite so deep but still of proportionate value from which to draw. Central Africa alone can place at our disposal an immense number of our natives for this and other purposes. I would not like to run the risk of suggesting that these men are only valuable for purposes of labour, because the Central African makes an extremely good fighter under certain conditions. The German Army which was opposed to us in the African campaign has shown what effect good discipline and good training can have upon the blacks in that part of the world, and their faithfulness, bravery and loyalty to their officers has been a surprise to many of those in command during that campaign. We have at our disposal quite a large number of these natives. I remember reading many months ago the discussion, and I was alarmed at the size of the figures, and I feel, having come recently from the spot, and having taken a good deal of trouble to ascertain what one might reasonably obtain from this source, so I take upon myself the liberty of giving my idea of the figures to the

  2217
  House. I will take as a parallel the number of troops which the Germans found themselves able to raise and train in that part of Africa. The tribes are very much the same in our own Protectorates, and after the War we shall have the advantage of being able to recruit from both these Protectorates in Africa. The Germans without much difficulty were able to put into the field after nine or ten months of war 13,000 or 14,000 trained black troops. I see no reason why we should not be able to put in the field reliable troops of an equivalent number. Some must necessarily be left for garrison duty, but I believe over and above that we should be able to produce a full division suitable for some of our garrisons in the East, thereby releasing troops who can be better employed on the more severe fronts.
  The question of labour from Central Africa is perhaps not quite so easy, but at the same time it is well worth going into very closely. During the last year of the campaign we have been able without much difficulty to keep steadily employed as many as from 50,000 to 60,000 natives, The rate of sickness amongst them has been much higher than they would suffer under a better organised condition of affairs. I do not mean to throw any aspersion on the Native Transport Department in East Africa, which was admirable, but they had often to be raised with great speed and without very much warning, and they had to be pushed along at the same rate that the troops were moving. As a result, they very often suffered much more greatly from a want of sufficiency of food and a want of necessary care, and sometimes of medical attention, than they would have done under stationary conditions. I wish to emphasise the point that we could get more for a purpose which involved merely taking these men in large bodies to a country like Egypt, or Mesopotamia or Aden, where they would work more or less at stationary jobs, and where, therefore, they would be looked after much better. The question may or may not have been gone into by the powers that be at Whitehall, but I hope, if they can find time, that they will make exhaustive inquiries as to the possibility of producing a fighting force from Central Africa capable of being sent at any rate to some of the Eastern garrison centres of our Empire, and thereby release troops of a different quality and perhaps of a different value for other purposes.
  2218
  I wish to ask the War Office also to take into consideration the possibilities of South Africa in this respect. I was glad to learn in Cape Town that we had already made an experiment in this direction. The first batch—perhaps it is better not to give the numbers, but it runs into many thousands—are already, I understand, being used in France. I had personal acquaintanceship with the class of native and the class of organisation, inasmuch as I was in charge of one of the ships which came home from South Africa with one of these contingents on board. I was very much impressed with the excellence of the organisation and with the discipline. The difficulty there of finding white men to control the natives is, of course, very much less than it would be in Central Africa. The Dutchmen who would be glad to come and help and who have experience of handling the natives in South Africa are luckily very numerous. I also made inquiries as to what that country could produce without the main industries being in any way disturbed. I gathered, apart from the objections which were raised by many to the scheme in all its forms, that at least five times the number that we have now got in France or are in this first detachment would be available within a very few months if an arrangement were at once come to with the Union Government.
  I know that there are difficulties. There is a feeling in South Africa that they do not wish their natives to become too civilised for fear that they should become difficult to handle in times of peace. The chief fear, however, is that they will not be properly looked after when they get to France. I am quite convinced that the War Office have taken that side of the question into consideration, and that there need be no fear of the abuse of the natives and no risk of him being spoilt for the purposes of labour in the country afterwards. It is all very well to be negrophile, and to a certain extent our instincts may lie in that direction, because as a rule the negro has been exploited by white men wherever he has been found, but there is no doubt that the question requires delicately handling and that it might easily become a very serious one indeed. The population of natives as compared with whites—in itself five millions to one-is indicative of the necessity of very wise and very far-seeing legislation and control. If India, Central Africa, and South

  2219
  Africa were immediately embraced in a comprehensive scheme for the purpose of supplying labour, and if the machinery were put on foot with as little delay as possible, the War Office and the Commanders in France would very shortly find that immense benefit would result to the white troops which they have under their control. The natural difficulty likely to be raised is the question of white officers and others to control them. The experiment of sending out officers from home to take charge of the raising of black troops in the British East African Protectorate, so far as I could see, and I saw a good deal of it, was most successful. In times of war people learn things very rapidly indeed, and many of those who were inclined to pour cold water on the possibility of a man picking up the language sufficiently in five or six months to control a body of men under his command were very much surprised at the rapidity and ease with which this knowledge was acquired. At the risk of labouring the point, I would again press the War Office to give this matter their close consideration.
  There is only one other point that I am anxious to raise this afternoon. I feel that in all probability it somewhat exceeds the scope of the Debate, but it has so direct a bearing upon the conduct of the War that I trust it will be permitted. The forthcoming Colonial Conference seems to me to have in it the possibility of our strengthening our war machine. When we remember the enormous contributions of men that the Colonies have made to the general fund it seems almost glaringly peculiar, to say the least of it, that the entire direction should be in the hands of the Motherland. Of course, it may be that no complaint is made on the part of the Colonies and that they accept the fact that we have more professionally trained soldiers, and are, therefore, naturally more likely to succeed in getting good commanders. If it is not possible actually to give the highest commands to members of those Dominions and Dependencies, it seems to me that they should, at any rate, have a more definite place in the councils which decide the general line of policy to be pursued. It would be a very unfortunate thing if, after the War or after a disaster, the Dominions were ever able to say that
  2220
  they made contributions in men and in blood, but were never consulted or asked with regard to the policy of the campaign in which the troops were employed. I only hope that those splendid Colonial troops who are fighting with us may be given to understand that their great statesmen—and they have great statesmen —will not only be well received and allowed to express their opinions in general terms, perhaps without much effect, but that they will be definitely made members of an Executive Board charged from day to day with the control of this vast War. It is, I admit, a difficult subject, and perhaps a very unwise one, for anyone without great Parliamentary experience, to touch upon, but I feel so strongly about it that I take the risk.
  There is one Colony which, it seems to me, up to now, has not yet perhaps fully pulled its weight in the Imperial boat. The Overseas Contingent from South Africa is not a very large unit, but it is a very gallant one, and although its fame is written in the hearts of everyone of Colonial or British parentage residing in that country, I believe with a little more encouragement that a very much larger force could be obtained. It is the last Colony to join the family, and it is perhaps the most suspicious, but the number of experienced fighters that the Colony now possesses would be a very considerable asset. There are men there who have been through the two campaigns of German South-West and German East Africa, and who have very little to learn about warfare; but for some reason there appears to be possibly a little hanging back in the numbers which come forward. I hope, if possible, that an effort will be made by the Government to get them, to invite them, and to make much of them. I believe also South Africa of the future would be enormously benefited if the effort were successful, because I think six months' fighting side by side is worth a lifetime of domestic politics where racial differences are involved. I know full well that the difficulties which beset the War Office are enormous, and in the few remarks that I have made this afternoon the last thing in my mind has been in any way to be anything but helpful. The strides which the War Office appear to have made in grappling with the immensity of the problem reflect the greatest possible credit on all concerned.
  Major WHELER: While the last two speakers have dealt with matters from overseas, I want to deal with one or two questions of administration at home. I would like to congratulate and thank the Financial Secretary to the War Office for his words with reference to the economies effected and the avoidance of waste in camps, because whilst a great many of the officers commanding camps have been doing their very best, especially during the last eighteen months, to do away with every kind of waste, it has been very galling to see in the papers articles headed "Waste," and so on, giving the impression to the civilian population that there is great waste in the bulk of the military camps of the Home Command. That is quite contrary to the fact. I need only ask the House to consider for a few moments the conditions under which a vast number of units were raised over two years ago. Of course, there were difficulties. The general administration was not in any way perfect—it could not be. The officers commanding were constantly making up units and shifting them from spot to spot, and those things made for waste But it is right to say that in the last year and a half, since the vast majority of the bigger units of the home commands became draft-producing units and had settled down to a great extent in camps, anybody who is able to inspect those camps and their general administration will agree with what the Financial Secretary to the War Office said, namely, that the wastage in those camps now compared very favourably indeed with the wastage of the civilian population round about. I can say from personal experience that everything in those camps is saved.
  The Financial Secretary mentioned glycerine. In the home commands there is a genuine rivalry between all the different commands to see which can produce the biggest amount of glycerine for the Ministry of Munitions. There is also rivalry with regard to sardine tins, jam tins, and everything that goes to a soldier in the way of messing. As the Financial Secretary said, the results have shown that officers and men as a whole are doing their level best to reduce waste to a minimum and to save every penny they can in the interests of the country. Only a few days ago I had a striking instance of that brought to my notice when I was doing work in connection with the Western Command. A commanding officer came to me and showed me a cheque for 2s. 10d., which
  2222
  he said was for waste paper, and asked me to which account he should put it. That is a small economy, but it shows the care that is being exercised by commanding officers to-day. However much those savings are carefully guided by the War Office, unless there is willing co-operation between the officers of the various commands and the men they will not amount to much. The savings which are effected, I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree in this, are practically entirely due to the willing co-operation of officers and men, who endeavour in every way to see that every particle of food which cannot be used is conserved and put to a useful purpose. I mention that matter at length, because I hope that now the general sort of stigma which attached to so many camps because it was said that they were wasteful will not be heard of so much in future. Any Member of this House who has had an opportunity of visiting any of the standing camps in the home commands to-day will find these economies being effected and improved upon day by day, and this reflects great credit on all those concerned. I should like to congratulate the Financial Secretary upon the appointment of a permanent messing officer. The appointment of a permanent man to look after the general administration of messing, who has a full grasp of the work and need not be taken away, as he used to be in the old days, at a few hours' notice, is going to be worth many thousands of pounds to the War Office. May I say a word about substitution. The substitution scheme has worked very slowly in the past. A lot of money has been lost in this way; men have been kept at depots in large numbers for four or five weeks and clothed, fed, and housed all that time, when they ought at once to have gone away to the various employments for which they were intended. One hopes now that that difficulty has been got over very largely, for every hour a man is kept at a depot waiting for a civilian job it is a loss of money and labour to the State.
  I would next refer to the position of the junior officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial branch. The simplest way of putting the case is to give the pay of those officers and compare it with the pay of the Regular officers of the R.A.M.C. A captain's pay in the Territorial force is 15s. 6d. a day, with allowances that bring it up to £280 a year, less Income Tax. They are not qualified for any extra pay under Royal Warrant 358. These Terri-

  2223
  torial officers joined up very often at short notice, and had to leave their practices, which, in most cases, have gone to ruin, therefore they are practically entirely dependent upon their pay. While their pay is the same as that of the Regular officer, the pay of the latter is based on the assumption that he qualifies, after twenty years, for a pension of £365. On the other hand, there is no pension for the Territorial officer. There is a great grievance in regard to the temporary officers who have been and are now being appointed in the R.A.M.C. A temporary lieutenant in the R.A.M.C is engaged for one year; he gets £30 on joining, 24s a day pay, Is. 9d. ration allowance, and £60 at the end of his first year, which roughly works out at about £500 a year. At the end of his contract he can leave the Service and draw his gratuity, whereas a Territorial officer cannot leave until the end of the War. If he leaves before the end of the War he loses his gratuity. I mention these facts because there is a genuine grievance among the medical officers in the R.A.M.C., Territorial Force. If the hon. Gentleman will look into the rates of pay of the junior officers as compared with the Regular officers, he will see that the case is worthy of his consideration, bearing in mind that they can be called up at very short notice, that they have to leave their practices without putting anybody in charge of them, and are entirely dependent upon their pay at the present time for their livelihood and the keep of their wives and families. Something ought to be done to help that branch of the Service. I should like once more to thank the hon. Gentleman for his statement with regard to the economies effected, which I am sure will give increased zest and energy to those, who have been helping in the matter.
  Mr. P. A. HARRIS: I should not have intervened in this Debate had it not been for the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Christchurch (Brigadier-General Croft). I was glad to hear him, as a practical soldier, praise the Volunteer Force, and I am certain that his praise and his remarks as to their possibilities will do very much to encourage Volunteers throughout the country. His criticism, such as it was, was a little bit late in the day. He said they had practically no organisation. That certainly was true at the beginning of the War, be-
  2224
  cause this force has grown up since the War and is an outcome of it. During the last two years a very complete organisation has grown up, and the whole country is now organised on a military basis very much as were the Territorials in peacetime, namely, on the county basis. Every county has its Volunteer regiment, divided into battalions, and, under the new scheme brought out by the War Office, they are under the direct supervision of the Territorial Associations and of the General Officers Commanding the districts to which they belong. I heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that this was not a real live military force. It is-not a properly organised military body, but the organisation is coining very near to-completion. He went on to complain of the absence of paid adjutants. I know that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been serving his country at the front, so that probably he has got out of touch with what has been going on. He should have remembered that when the Volunteer Act was being passed an undertaking was given that paid adjutants should be appointed to every Volunteer battalion. I think I am right in saying that those appointments are being made rapidly They may be made on the lines advocated by the hon. and gallant Member. Officers invalided out of the Army or on sick leave are being appointed. In addition to that, the General Officers Commanding the various districts are placing at the disposal of the battalions their Staff officers, their training facilities and their command schools, and we are in a very fair way to get these Volunteer battalions very good rivals in efficiency to the Territorial battalions as they were before the outbreak of hostilities.
  The hon. Member complained about their lack of equipment. That, too, would have been justified six or nine months ago. Up to a few months ago Volunteer battalions depended entirely upon voluntary subscriptions, public benevolence or personal self-sacrifice for their equipment. The hon. Member referred a little contemptuously to the dummy rifles Even there he is not correct. What have they done for themselves f A great number of volunteers have bought serviceable rifles, not necessarily modern service rifles, out of their own pockets, and to-day a considerable percentage of the force is armed in that way. We have had a promise that service rifles will be supplied when available. Volunteers are reasonable people.

  2225
  They have been waiting for two years and they understand that these rifles will be forthcoming as soon as they are available and when the requirements of the forces for overseas have been fully supplied. It cannot be too much realised that the Volunteer Force necessarily is a spare-time force. Once you try to make it a full-time force and call up these men the justification for its existence largely disappears. The great advantage of volunteers for Home Defence purposes is that they are economical, both in manpower and in money—in man-power because they remain at their industry or employment and help to keep the trade of the country going at a time when there is a great shortage of labour in the country, and economical in money because, as they remain at their industry and employment, it is not necessary for the State to maintain them, provide them with food or accommodation, pay them wages, or keep their wives or provide separation allowances. If you attempted to convert this force into a full-time force you would be throwing away a great advantage; you would be drawing their labour from industry and immediately make them a charge upon the State. Owing to the fact that this country is an island and that its main defence is the Navy, we can, fortunately, largely depend for Home defence upon a spare-time force. If you substitute anything for that you throw away one of our great advantages as to man-power over enemy countries.
  The hon. Member for Christchurch took great exception to their name, and wanted to give them some high-sounding Imperial title. I do not think the force wants its name changed, but that, on the contrary, they are proud of being volunteers, proud of inheriting the title and the name that have so long distinguished the volunteers of Great Britain, and handed down by the volunteers of the Napoleonic Wars and by the volunteers of 1852, and again handed down by that force which gave way to the Territorials. I think, from the practical point of view, apart from the name, if you are going to nave the Volunteer Force as I hope a spare-time force, that it is obvious compulsion would not be a practical proposal. It is possible to train a conscript when his full time is at the disposal of the State, but in a spare-time force, if it is really to be efficient, the men must give the time freely and of their own will, perhaps with a little peaceful persuasion, to be set aside for training purposes. I do hope that
  2226
  the War Office will not listen for one moment to the suggestion to change this force which is proud to be called "Volunteers," and make it something under another name, as is suggested by the hon. Member for Christchurch. That hon. Member did refer to some extent to National Service and suggested that now that we had that scheme that there was good reason to use compulsion for this over-age force. I do think, if the volunteers are to-continue to be a success, that it is very important that their relations should be defined to this new scheme. I raised this, matter on the Second Reading of the National Service Bill, and received a very sympathetic reply from the Home Secretary. It is very necessary that it should be made clear that membership of the force under the Volunteer Act, 1916, will count towards National Service and be reckoned in considering the position of any man employed in industry. If that is done, not only will it encourage men to sign the new agreement provided by the Act of 1916, but it will bring in a very large number who at present are uncertain of their position under the new National Service scheme and are hesitating to enrol in the volunteers.
  The new scheme under the Volunteer Act of 1916 lays down a definite number of drills. Men are not going to take on a definite obligation of that kind if at any time they may be asked to shift their homes to another part of the country or take up greater industrial obligations requiring greater physical strain, or which are a much greater tax on their physical resources. Therefore I hope that the Under-Secretary, to whom we look to champion the claims of the volunteers, will see that the position of the Volunteer Force is clearly defined in the National Service Bill. That is very very necessary, and important, not only in the interests of the volunteers, but in the interests both of National Service and of Home defence. I am satisfied that the War Office is approaching this question of the volunteers on right lines. There is a new spirit come into their attitude towards them. I think on the whole the terms are generous. The force understands that their best justification is that there should be an economic force. So long as there is a desire to meet their reasonable requirements, and so long as there is sympathy, and I desire to recognise their value from a practical point of view, and to do everything to assist

  2227
  towards their success, I am sure the volunteers will be satisfied, because they realise in these days of sacrifice, when every penny is precious, that not a pound should be spent on the force except there is a real practical return. The hon. Member for Christchurch rather seemed to think that the force was not at present an organisation of much practical use for Home defence. That sort of criticism will do more harm than even a little delay in finding funds. What is of the greatest encouragement to the volunteers is to feel that they are of real practical use. They consider that they are efficient, able, ready and willing to take the field should an enemy ever land on these shores. What they desire, and what they feel is that now, having the confidence of the military, that they are an efficient, well organised military body. Lord French has on repeated occasions made clear that he believes in the potentialities of the force, and that he believes in the physical fitness of the men. I believe, should anything arise to make it necessary for the volunteers to take the field, that they will acquit themselves with equal valour, courage and ability to that displayed by the Territorials in France.
  Sir JOSEPH WALTON: I desire to warmly congratulate my lion. Friend the Financial Secretary on the most admirable and hopeful statement he has made to the House to-night, and a statement that shows that a great step in advance has been taken in the last twelve months by the War Office authorities in endeavouring to secure better value for the expenditure which is going on. It was with special pleasure I heard of 1,000 tons of glycerine being obtained by the Government for the Army from homo sources at a cost of, I think, £50 a ton as against £240 per ton paid to the United States of America. Let us only hope that the civilian population will follow that excellent example, and that it will not be long before my hon. Friend is able to state that not only In the matter of glycerine, but in the matter of munitions of war altogether, that we are practically a self-contained country. We know that the greatest waste of money is in the far too high prices we have got to pay to America for munitions of war, which unfortunately we were compelled to have from that country, I should have liked to have some further statement from my hon. Friend as to how rapidly that process of increasing our home production of muni-
  2228
  tions is going on, and it would have given much encouragement to the taxpayers of the country to have an indication that the enormous waste of money in the matter of munitions will speedily be stopped. We appointed a Committee to look into the question of retrenchment of expenditure and the abolition of waste in connection with the Army. No Report has yet been presented to us on the results achieved by that Committee, and I think we might have had a little more information on that particular question. There is no doubt whatever, when we have regard to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, that there has been very heavy waste in connection with War Office expenditure. I am perfectly certain that no one could be more anxious than the Financial Secretary to the War Office to prevent waste.
  7.0 P.M.
  The Public Accounts Committee made various criticisms and points in their Report as to the waste that was unfortunately going on in connection with the War Office. I can only hope that the more hopeful indications we have had to-day that the prevention of waste is engaging more than ever the utmost attention of the authorities of the War Office will enable my hon. Friend to state frankly to the House that the strictures made by the Public Accounts Committee can no longer be made, and that the grounds of complaint have altogether been left behind. We know that the Public Accounts Committee express the opinion that competition was too limited, and that it should be broader, so that we should get minimum prices. We know that the War Office have the power to requisition, if they think that too high prices are being charged. I should like it to be told how often that power has been acted on. We know, of course, one strong accusation made by the Public Accounts Committee was as to the waste of money on billeting hundreds of thousands of soldiers. The Army Council passed a resolution to reduce the rate allowed for billeting, and the War Office took nine months before that was given effect to. There is no doubt whatever that in many respects waste is still going on, but I believe at a diminishing rate. We have not yet had the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General, but there will be a subsequent opportunity of dealing with it on the Vote for clothing. I will not stand longer between the House and the Under-Secretary except to say that there is one notable figure in this House who offered

  2229
  the most cogent criticisms in regard to waste. I refer to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), from whom I am sure we should have heard under other circumstances. I can only hope, after all he said in the House on the question of preventing waste, that he is busily engaged, morning, noon, and night, in putting his views in that respect into practice. I wish him and everyone associated with him in that task, including my hon. Friends in front of of me, the most gigantic that the world has ever faced, great success, both as regards economy and efficiency.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for WAR (Mr. Macpherson): I think the Financial Secretary and I may congratulate ourselves and the War Office on the fact that this Debate has been wonderfully free from criticism of any sort of the administration of the offices which we represent. It is a rather remarkable fact that we have heard to-night three distinguished hon. and gallant Gentlemen who have come from distant theatres of war, and the must striking fact in connection with their speeches was that they were unanimous that the efforts of the War Office, not only in administration but in efficiency and in every other branch of the Service, were magnificent. I join with everyone who has spoken in congratulating the Financial Secretary on his speech. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Tennant) paid him a compliment which was due not only to the efficient work he has been performing for a long time at the War Office, but to that genius for friendship which I know he possesses. My right hon. Friend twitted us both in regard to the precedent which seems to have been created by my hon. Friend in introducing the Estimates to-day, but where two friends are concerned no question of precedent can ever arise. I shall always remember my association with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Tennant) with very great affection and regard. He told us that he was very anxious about the fate of the Territorial Force, particularly as far as promotion was concerned. I think I shall allay his feelings when I tell him that this particular side of the Territorial Force question has been engaging the attention of the Secretary of State for a considerable time, and I am now in a position to announce that my Noble Friend has appointed a Committee to inquire into the various anomalies of promotion, not only in the Territorial Force, but in the New
  2230
  Armies. He has been fortunate enough to secure as chairman of that Committee my right hon. Friend (Mr. Churchill), along with whom will work Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Davies, K. C.B., K.C.M.G., as military secretary; Colonel Lord Burnham; my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Preston (Lieutenant-Colonel Stanley), who also will act as secretary; 69. Colonel E. F. Riley, C.M.G., who has been a very powerful factor in the Territorial Force; and Mr. R. H. More. I think that Committee will appeal to the House as being a very strong and effective committee. The terms of reference are sufficiently general to cover the points which have very often been raised, in the House and out of it, as far as the anomalies with regard to promotion are concerned in the various branches of the Service. They are:
  "To inquire into the system of promotion in the New Armies and the Territorial Forces, having special regard to anomalies which may have arisen as follows:

  1. Promotion at home as compared with the Expeditionary Forces. Promotion in different battalions. Reduction in rank on being wounded or invalided and having to work up again to former acting rank.

  2. To inquire into the conditions under which officers holding temporary commissions are given permanent commissions in the Regular Army.

  3. The position of Reserve of Officers.

  4. To inquire how far any recommendations of the Committee should be made retrospective."

  Mr. TENNANT: Does that include Special Reserve?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I think that is included in the Reserve of Officers. My right hon. Friend was also deeply concerned with regard to the position of Territorial officers so far as the higher commands were concerned. I stated in answer to a question recently that no fewer than seventeen or eighteen Territorial colonels are now commanding brigades at home. The whole question of the higher commands is a very difficult one indeed. I know the subject troubled my right hen. Friend during his years at the War Office, and the Secretary of State has taken a very deep interest in the matter, too, and he has been in communication with the Commander-in-Chief in France, and I have here a letter in which the Field-Marshal assures my Noble Friend

  2231
  that everything that is possible is being done to see that the Territorial officer shall get every chance to find himself placed in the highest possible command. In the old days it took a Regular soldier seventeen years to become a major, and when one thinks of that, one is not at all surprised that the Regular soldier should after his experience of peace time, get further advancement in quicker time since the War began than a soldier who was a civilian in pre-war time, and merely took the war service obligation after the War began. I think I can quote a significant set of figures. We started the Staff College for soldiers in order to prepare them for Staff work, and I find that the percentage of officers attending the Staff course works out as follows:—Regulars. 31.36; New Armies, 19.61; Territorial Force, 15.70; Reserve of Officers, none; Oversea Contingent, 33.33. If the House will add together the figures of the New Army and the Territorial Forces, they are 2 per cent, more than the percentage of the Regulars. That in itself is rather a significant fact, showing that now, realising as we do the capacity of Territorial officers and new officers, we are giving, as far as staff appointments are concerned— and, after all, a staff appointment is the beginning of the higher command—every possible consideration and every chance to attain it.
  Colonel YATE: Are the Special Reserve of officers included among the Regulars, or are they not mentioned at all?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: They are not mentioned at all in this list.
  Colonel YATE: Are none of the Special Reserve trained for the staff?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I understand they are, but I have not the figures here, unless they are Included in the Regulars. I saw the military secretary to-day, and he assures me that every possible consideration is being given to Special Reserve lieutenant-colonels, and I am hopeful that the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces will see his way to give consideration to the claims of this gallant class. But there are a great many lieutenant-colonels who have served in France who are at home now doing nothing, and the impression is prevalent that this gallant class ought to get first consideration over those who have been doing Home service during the whole time. I should like to
  2232
  associate myself with the testimony which my right hon. Friend paid to General Sir Edward Bethune. I think the Territorial Force owes him a great debt of gratitude, and I am glad to think that we have now in my Noble Friend Major-General the Earl of Scarborough a man who is eminently suitable to watch over carefully and well the best interests of the Territorial and Home forces in this country.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: Will the Earl of Scarborough have anything to do with officers' promotion?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: No, I think not. That is purely a matter for the Secretary of State himself.
  Mr. FRANCE: Would it not be possible in time of war to brush aside the various distinctions in the classes of officers and make merit and efficiency the sole consideration in regard to promotion?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: That is the gist of the letter which I have from Sir Douglas Haig. He is doing his level best, and so is the Secretary of State, to break down all distinctions in our national Army of Regular, Territorial, and Special Reserve. They are being broken down as rapidly as possible, and I think that is the real import of the figures I have quoted. They show that practically the same percentage of men is being sent to the Staff College for the higher command.
  My right hon. Friend referred to agriculture, and hoped we should be very careful indeed not only not to take men away, but to leave the best men on the land. If my right hon. Friend had road the speech of my Noble Friend in another place yesterday he would have realised what the War Office is doing in that connection. Not only are we trying to get men out of the Array who are skilled cowkeepers and cowmen, but we have already procured over 2,000 and have sent them to the most necessitous districts. We are also prepared to give to agriculture 15,000 men, and we are assisting agricultural committees as efficiently as we can. We have given them every possible assistance, because we realise that it was not their fault that recruiting was not general but was spasmodic. In my own county in Scotland every able-bodied man has been recruited, while in another county there is no one recruited at all. It is a most difficult question.

  2233
  My right hon. Friend appealed to me to keep our promise with regard to keeping boys in the Army. I know he has a very large heart and I know the great pains he took in regard to this question. I well remember the pledge which he gave, and I had to confess the other day that we had come to the conclusion that that promise could no longer be binding upon the House because of the necessity of getting men, but there is one consideration which kind-hearted people seem to forget, so far as these boys are concerned. These boys are very patriotic, and they come forward to enlist. In country districts, where the boys are of good physique and strong, they can easily pass as boys of military age. These boys get their pay and allowance, and not a word is said by the parents or anybody else, until the time comes when the boy is due to go on draft. The War Office came to the conclusion that that was wrong. I take the view that if these boys are released, they should refund the payments they have received during that time. If they have enlisted upon those grounds they are now told they will not be sent to France until they are nineteen years of age, but will be placed meanwhile upon reserve until they are seventeen and a half years. I think that is reasonable, and I think the reasonableness of it will appeal to my right hon. Friend. His next appeal was that we should have justice in the administration of the Army. General Childs, who is a young general himself, a type of young man making his mark in the present Army, tells me that he has used fifty-nine invalided soldiers, with a knowledge of the law, to act as legal officers at courts-martial, and in various commands in this country alone. I know further that in the courts-martial in France the men have always got legal advice. My right hon. Friend need not be so afraid as he once was, that justice is not meted out at these courts-martial. I think he will find that a soldier, before he is punished for any serious offence, has his case looked into by at least nine different people or tribunals in one way or another. I am hopeful that the present feeling in the Army that justice is being very fairly administered will continue to be the view that is taken by the people in this country.
  The next point raised by the right hon. Gentleman was whether I had anything to say in regard to Salonika. Nobody knows better than my right hon. Friend what my answer will be. I can imagine him stand-
  2234
  ing at this box and giving the same sort of answer I am going to give now. Nobody knows better than my right hon. Friend that that is a question of national policy over which an Under-Secretary has very little authority. I can appreciate his point. He is anxious, as is the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle), that we should not have, as he calls it, an abuse of shipping at Salonika, and that we should have economy in manpower and such things. All I can say to my right hon. Friend is that I will ask those who are concerned with the national policy to pay particular attention to the remarks which he has made upon this particular point. The next point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Bethnal Green (Colonel Sir Matthew Wilson), and I am sure it was very exhilarating to the House to hear him give such a fine picture of the work which he had done so arduously and gallantly, and with which the British Army is associated in that theatre of war. He was followed by the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Brigadier-General Croft). I think I dealt in the main with the point he raised regarding man-power. I do not think I can usefully add, after what was said by the Secretary of State for War yesterday, anything further on that from the point of view of the War Office. So far as the question of man-power is concerned, it is a question of national policy which must be dealt with in the various Government Departments under a supreme head. I am sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend—and I am one of those who appreciate very much his gallant service at the front in command of a brigade —impaired a very fine and very gallant speech by his somewhat unnecessary attack upon the Volunteers.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: I think the hon. Member will remember that I opened my criticism of the Volunteer question by paying the highest tribute I could to the Volunteers. I said that in the past they had not had a chance, because they had not had a real organisation to make them the force we desired.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I carefully noted what the hon. and gallant Member said. He said that the Volunteers were a sham, a snare, and a delusion. If that is not an attack, I do not know what is.
  Brigadier-General CROFT: Upon the organisation.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: There is inclined to be a difficulty in knowing exactly what a volunteer is. You find so many thousands of volunteers of different kinds. I think we ought to come to some understanding in regard to the name. I do not agree with the name which the hon. and gallant Member suggests. I am rather inclined to accept the name suggested by the hon. Member for Market Harborough (Mr. Percy Harris) and that we should stick to the word "Volunteer" for this particular branch of military service, and that anybody working under the National Service scheme should be called a voluntary civilian worker. I think there should be some such distinction. My hon. and gallant Friend, in his attack upon the volunteers, must have forgotten that the Act was only passed at the end of December. It was the first Bill that I personality introduced in this House. We have now the aid of His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught and Field-Marshal Lord French in looking after the interests of volunteers, and I can assure the House that the extraordinary progress that has been made in the Volunteer movement since the beginning of this year has been a very striking fact in military history and a great tribute to the volunteers. My hon. and gallant Friend said there were no rifles. The hon. Member for Market Harborough answered that point. Within the next six weeks practically every volunteer in Section A in this country will have his rifle. I made a promise that the adjutants should, if possible, not be volunteers but, if we could acquire them, men from the Regular Army invalided home. I am glad to say that the Secretary of State for War has arranged with the Military Secretary that we are to get as paid adjutants, with the rank of captain, young Regular officers used to the New Army, and officers of the Territorial Force who have had experience at the front, to act as county adjutants, group adjutants, and battalion adjutants. These men will be paid, and I trust will have the rank of captain, and the emoluments and full pay of that rank. That does not show that we have been negligent. We are gradually accumulating names, and I am very hopeful that within the next month all the battalions which have the minimum number will have an adjutant. I think that is a satisfactory state of things. The hon. and gallant Member said we have no organisation for resisting invasion Upon what ground did he say that?
  Brigadier-General CROFT: The Volunteer force at the present moment is not fit to resist invasion.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: The hon. and gallant Member must remember that I said that the force by Statute had only been in existence six or eight weeks. The hon. Member for Market Harborough knows that since the inception of this force hundreds of thousands of men have got a fair working knowledge of military tactics, and could very actively resist any landing on these coasts. We are getting battalions, groups, and counties, and I think the last figures we have show that we have in the various sections at least 106,000 men. We are now equipping these men with overcoats, and we are going to pay their fares to musketry practice and training. We are also giving them ammunition free, both for the amount of necessary practice and for additional practice on their own behalf. I think the Volunteer force is no longer "a sham, a snare, and a delusion," and I am certain that the hon. and gallant Member will be the first to recognise that in this short time they have made wonderful progress. The hon. and gallant Member for Dorset (Captain F. Guest)—whom I am sure hon. Members are glad to see here again from the theatre of war—made a special point in connection with the man-power of the country, and that was the need for employing in every possible way native labour. I am glad to assure the House that we are doing that. Hon. Members will realise that it is an extremely difficult and delicate subject. All sorts of international questions were involved— questions which concerned the Foreign Office, which concern our social life at home and also the life of the Colonies from which these men come. All these questions, I am glad to say, have been carefully investigated, and I am now in a position to say that we are using a great many battalions of native labour from all parts of our Empire. It will be at least a satisfaction to the House to know that the native troops we have now in France are being very carefully looked after. We have now looking after these troops Colonel Pritchard, an officer who is a native of South Africa, and who has got an assurance from the War Office that whatever comforts or necessaries these troops require in France will be at once allowed to him by the War Office. The latest information I have got is, that

  2237
  these troops are being looked carefully and as tenderly as gallant soldiers who are fighting, and gallant Member for Faversham (Major Wheler) raised several points. I covered one of his points so far as the Territorial R.A.M.C. men are concerned. I have no doubt this will be included in the Terms of Reference to which I referred at the beginning of my speech. I was glad to hear what he said about the question of waste. The question of waste is in the Department of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary of the War Office. Nothing has been more wonderful than the way in which we have buckled to—hon. Members, like the hon. and gallant Member for Faversham, have done good work—to make the best use of the by-products which were such a source of annoyance and waste alt over the country.
  Mr. BUTCHER: Is the hon. Member in a position to give the figure of the savings in the different commands in Great Britain and Ireland?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I am afraid I cannot. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary tells me that it is impossible to do that, but I have no doubt that if the hon. Member puts down a question the necessary statistics will be produced at some future date.

  MEDICAL BOARDS (CLASSIFICATION OF RECEUITS).
  Mr. NIELD: I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words,
  "in the opinion of this House, the classification of recruits for the Army by military medical boards, particularly of of men who have been previously examined upon attestation under the Derby scheme and rejected as unfit, has been productive of great and unnecessary hardship as well as expense by reason of the large number of such men, while undergoing training, being found unable to perform the military work required of them in the class to which they have been assigned, whereby they have had to be sent for hospital treatment and have occupied accommodation and medical attendance urgently required for returned wounded men; and this House is of opinion that an inquiry is urgently needed to alter and standardise these medical examinations and
  2238
  to ascertain the extent to which hospital accommodation and expense has been expended which with proper care might have been avoided."
  I am very sorry to be obliged to switch off the general discussion of the Estimates, because I should have liked to have an opportunity of bringing forward several points in relation to the broad questions with which we have dealt tonight. But I should like to say this, in connection with the Volunteer Force, which is now on a county basis, that it would be well if the hon. Gentleman can see his way to utilise the services of the deputy-lieutenants of the country, who, I am sure, are quite ready to justify their appointment to a military or semi-military position by having some duties put upon them which they may discharge. At present apparently they are created with no objects, so far as duties are concerned. That is an anomaly, because unless a deputy-lieutenant pushes for work nobody seeks to get him to do any, and there is no reason why he should be permitted to wear the somewhat gaudy khaki uniform without having some definite work to do.
  The object with which I rise is to avail myself of what for the first time has come to my lot, the chance of the ballot upon going into Supply. Nothing but the sense of duty which I feel on this question of medical board examination would have caused me to avail myself of the chance-on this occasion to bring before the notice of this House the great waste which has occurred. The Financial Secretary this afternoon dealt with the savings which had been effected, and many speakers who followed him emphasised how gratified they were to learn of those savings. Here is a point on which great waste is taking places—great waste in hospitals, because men who have never seen a day's actual service and many of whom have only seen a very few weeks' training in this country, have been relegated to hospitals, and have filled beds which are wanted urgently for wounded men out at the front. But apart from that, there is the waste of man-power by withdrawing men from civil occupations when they ought to be left in them, and, furthermore, there is the waste by taking them from their business, very often completely ruining them in their business, only to find out some weeks after it is broken up that they are no good for any mliitary service whatever. I am bound to point this out, because I listened just now with some trepidation to the

  2239
  statement that a pledge given by one Under-Secretary of State was no longer I to be performed because of pressure, j although in this House when pledges are I given as a rule it is expected, unless where they are released by consent, that they shall be binding for all time.
  I think when the Bill was introduced and the Act was passed which contained the provision in Sub-section (1) of Section 2 of the Military Service Act, that exemption shall be granted on the ground of ill-health or infirmity. When we have the pledge of the late Prime Minister, in introducing the Bill, that that was obviously a ground of exemption, then it does seem remarkable that men, notwithstanding their claim to be exempt on the ground of ill-health and infirmity, are sent into the Army again and again, and told that the medical board must be the judge. I cannot accept that proposition. If men like to go before a tribunal and claim to put forward a medical ground within the four corners of the Act, claiming to have the benefit of that exemption, it is obviously not the duty of a military tribunal to shift the burden upon the medical boards sitting throughout the country. Now the question arises again as a question of honour with regard to pledges given in this House. It is urged over and over again that men who have attested under Lord Derby's scheme should have the same rights as and be in no worse position than men who have been brought into the net under the Military Service Act. What is the fact? Directly an attested man appears before a tribunal and claims to be exempted on the ground of ill-health or infirmity he is told that he has no right to that, that the attestation prevents him from raising the question of health.
  I believe that I am right in saying that at the present moment there is pending before the High Court of Justice a case stated by the magistrate at the request of an applicant, an attested man. The stipendiary after mature consideration decided that rejection on the ground of ill-health by a duly constituted medical board or medical officers does not release the man from the effect of an attestation. However that may be, I do venture to think, having regard to the specific pledges given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwick (Mr. Tennant) on the 12th of January last year, and the present Leader of the House, who spoke on the
  2240
  18th of January, 1916, that an attested man coming in under the scheme should be in no worse position than if he had been conscripted. All over the country we find that medical boards refuse to re-examine attested men, and in some oases, not a few from my own experience, have refused to re-examine conscripts under the Military Service Act, who have been sent to these tribunals for that purpose. The hon. Gentleman has no idea of the difficulty of dealing with these cases, in the face of classification by medical boards, of recruits as they come up before the tribunal. It is a far bigger question than anybody not actually engaged in this work can possibly conceive, and does cast upon men who are endeavouring to perform their duty a very great burden in determining whether or not the medical classification can be relied on.
  What are the requirements of the War Office in regard to the work expected from the various types of classified men? They must be free from organic disease, they must be able to stand service abroad, on lines of communication in France, or in garrison or in the tropics, and, in addition to that, if they are classed as B 1, they must be able to march at least five miles, to shoot without glasses and to hear well. That is required of men who are classified in B 1. This is the next degree to general service men. The same requirments apply to men who are passed for C 1, except that garrison duty at home is substituted for foreign service. Then in B 2 and again in C 2 a man must be able to walk to and from his work, a distance not exceeding five miles, and to see and hear sufficiently for ordinary purposes. And then in B3 and C 3 men shall be required only suitable for sedentary work. Those are classifications which one knows in practice and not adhered to. Once a man is in the Army one knows that, over and over again, men passed for B1 and C 1 are, under the powers possessed by the War Office, transferred into classifications of a superior character, and it does happen, over and over again, that a B 1 man goes into general service, and no distinction is made between him and the man who is passed fit for all service. I have, of course, in preparation for this Motion, collected evidence in support of it. That evidence must necessarily be of a detailed character, and I had hoped to see the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that he was quite willing to meet me, on the subject;

  2241
  but unfortunately owing to our engagements we were not able to make it convenient to meet together.
  I take tuberculous men as an illustration. Nothing is more alarming than the answer given the other day by the Controller of the Household, the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Sir E. Cornwall) to a question, I think by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). He said that under special arrangements made by the various Insurance Commissions and with the Admiralty and the War Office, beds have been provided for nearly 5,000 discharged soldiers and sailors suffering from tuberculosis. Why should they be suffering from tuberculosis? Why were not they properly examined in the first instance to ascertain whether or not they were subject to tuberculosis? A further part of that answer was this, that, in addition, insurance committees have provided beds under ordinary arrangements for a considerable number of discharged men, but that he had no information as to the exact number. Then the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) made this statement, by way of supplemental question, that the waiting list of civilians had been very largely increased by the admission of these military and naval men. Why are they there? I turn to the military Regulations and find that if the Army instructions were properly observed we would not have had these men admitted because Army Council Instruction 471 directs a medical board to reject any man who has at any time been under treatment for tuberculosis, and Regulation 908 provides that a man who has been discharged on account of lung trouble is not again to be taken. And then there was this statement, that the Local Government Board, at the request of the War Office, asked the various counties to permit their tuberculosis officer to be called in to examine the cases. It may interest the hon. Gentleman to know that the very moment a suggestion is made of private practitioner certificates being produced by an applicant for exemption to show that he has been suffering from tuberculosis at any time in his life they make it a rule that that man, notwithstanding his classification and notwithstanding any evidence to the contrary, shall forthwith be sent to the county tuberculosis officer for a further examination. The hon. Gentleman will be surprised when I give the figures to find in how many cases the officer has reported the
  2242
  presence of tuberculosis in the case of men, some of whom have been classified for general service. I submit that that shows a lax administration.
  Before I go into the figures further I should like to call attention to the great hardships that have been inflicted upon the men themselves. It is astonishing the number of cases in which men have been rejected twice and three times—I have got a case of even five times—under the tribunal scheme, as being wholly unfit for any service at all in the Army, and who, in some instances, have entered into business or bought businesses, or have entered into partnership, and have married and have incurred obligations. In one case the individual bought and furnished a house at a cost of something like a couple of thousand pounds. He was one of the better class of recruits, so far as money goes, yet that man was afterwards turned down for examination, and was declared by the medical board to be fit for B 1. There can be nothing more unfair than to compel a man in such circumstances to be dealt with in that way, and I think the instances which I have given show the great laxity of the medical authorities under the tribunals scheme. These men to whom I refer have had their lives wrecked and their savings dissipated, and yet they have been finally sent out of the Service because they were wholly unable to stand the strain. But they have no pension. I should like to give the House some information which I have gathered in the course of my experience in connection with tribunals. I agree that it is limited, but it is derived from many notes that I took, with as full details as possible, and it indicates the extraordinary nature of the medical examination. I have before me a list of men who have been passed in certain categories, and that in a way which no possible system can justify. There are cases in which a man has been passed for general service, and he has been examined six months afterwards and rejected. Then the military insisted on another examination, and the medical board put him back into C1. What could possibly justify action of that sort in so short an interval?
  It is quite an ordinary thing for a man on re-examination to be passed from general service to B 1. That is a very serious curtailment, so far as his value as a soldier is concerned. Only last week, on one day, three re-examinations were reported, and in each case they fell from the top of the list—the general service—

  2243
  to the bottom of the list. These cases show the necessity of some radical re-organisation. I would like the hon. Gentleman to consider whether it is not desirable, even now, to appoint a Committee at once to inquire into the allegations made against the medical board. I have also evidence from hospitals in London and outside districts, and from large towns in the provinces, and I venture to say that if all the evidence were examined it would be found that there are many cases of men who have been reported as fit for active service outside this country, but who have really occupied beds for weeks. Here is one case: that of a man examined originally and rejected. He was sent up again for examination to a different medical board and was rejected. He was once again examined after these two rejections, and, in the third examination, he was passed for B 1. After a four months' interval the man came up from B 1 to B 3, a fact which in itself was enough to get him clear at once. In another two or three months afterwards another medical board sent him to C 1, the conditions of which involve a great strain on a man; there is nominal garrison duty, but the duties put a strain on the man. I do not want to detain the House, with these statistics, which I am ready to place at the disposal of the hon. Gentleman.
  Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted; and forty Members being found present—
  8.0 P.M.
  Mr. NIELD: I was endeavouring to give particulars of the various cases contained in the list which I have in my hand. The Count has enabled me to recollect that I passed away too quickly from the statistics. I have here a number of cases of which I think the hon. Gentleman would like to hear. They are cases of a number of men who have been passed either for A or B 1 upon re-examination by the officers specially qualified to deal with these questions. They were found to be tubercular, and they are discharged from the Army. It is not necessary for me to point out that tuberculosis is a very contagious disease, and it would be very mischievous to allow such men to be received into the Army or to be retained in its ranks. Of the limited number of cases that I am able to give to the House, there are two in which the men were sent to general service and were then reduced to another
  2244
  class. There have been 5 cases of rejection or reduction from A to B 1; there has been 1 case in which an A man sent to general service has been reduced to B 2; 3 cases of general service reduced to B 3; 8 cases where A men were reduced to B 1; and an A case reduced to C 2; 2 cases of general service reduced to C3; 1 from B 1 to B 2; 4 from B X to B 3; 6 from B 1 to C 1; 8 from B 1 to C 3; and 3 passed to B 1 rejected in toto. Then if you come to the C Class, there are 1 reduced from 0 1 to C 2; 2 from C 1 to C 3; 2 from C 1 to rejection; 2 from C 1 to B 3; 2 from 2 rejected; 1 from C3 to B1— this is an extraordinary reversal; 1 from C 3 to rejected absolutely; 1 from C 3 to C 1; 2 from rejection to general service; and 1 from rejection to B 1. Those are the summarised cases in which I have been able to make investigations, and the particulars of which I give to the House. Let us see the type of men who have been so dealt with. In one instance, a man was said to be suffering from locomotor ataxy, who had been passed for B 1. He assured the tribunal that his head went involuntarily right round. I could not understand how his head could go right round, but he assured the tribunals that he had to put up his two hands to put it in a right position. Yet that man was passed into B 1 for strenuous work. After a further examination by the tribunal he was finally rejected. The cases of weak heart are legion. There are weak hearts and weak hearts and the difficulty is whether the heart is so-affected as to justify exemption from anything like hard physical work. Here again I should like to mention how unsatisfactory the conditions are. In the county of London, if a man's heart is called in issue, he has the opportunity of going to the Westmoreland Road Heart Hospital, the highest and best qualified place to obtain a judgment; but that man happened to live on the other side of the Edgware Road, which is in the county of Middlesex, the Westmoreland Road Hospital would have nothing to do with him. There are many cases of civilians with weak hearts who have been passed by the medical authorities for military service from time to time, and these cases have been sent for medical re-examination. Here is the case of a man who had undergone many examinations. He was rejected under the Derby scheme, but was passed by the medical

  2245
  board for general service. He was sent to a special medical board, and finally was passed by the Court of Appeal for general service. Not being satisfied, he was examined again at the instance of the tribunal, and was eventually rejected. There is the case of a man who who been discharged as unfit from the Royal Navy. He produced his naval discharge, but the War Office authorities insisted that he should be examined again. He had organic heart disease. He was passed for B 1, and expected to undertake the strenuous work which attaches to that class. How could he be fit to do that when he was not fit for the Navy? I have many other cases. A case of double rupture, a very sad case. Yet invariably these cases are passed.
  There is one complaint which inflicts agony on the poor creatures who suffer from it, yet that agony might very easily be relieved by proper diet. These are cases of ulceration of the stomach, and if a man partakes of improperly prepared food it causes him untold agony. The House will be familiar with one case, of which I have the particulars here. It is the case of R. F. Dyer, a man thirty-eight years of age. I am obliged to give the details in order that the House may understand the enormity of the hardship put upon these men. Dyer was a butcher by trade—an assistant in the Central Meat Market. His work there was very onerous, but his master put him on light employment. He suffered from gastric ulcer. He attested under Lord Derby's scheme, and was placed in Group 32. He was called up in July, 1916, but his master appealed on business grounds, and got him three months' exemption, which expired in October. He was again examined, and, in spite of the fact that he produced a certificate showing that he had been suffering from this disease for years, the medical board at Mill Hill passed him for general service, although he told them he had been confined to bed for as long as three months at a time because of the gastric ulcers, from which he suffered for years, and as a result of which he had been invalided out of the police force. He joined up on the 9th October, 1916. He performed but one day's service and then went into Mansfield Hospital, suffering from vomiting and pains in the stomach. After two weeks in that hospital he was sent to Staffordshire, and thence to Broughty Ferry, in Scotland. There he was taken ill again
  2246
  On Friday, November 3rd, the doctor told him it was not correct he was suffering from gastric ulcer. His complaint, he said, was dyspepsia, and the private practitioner's certificate was all wrong. Nevertheless the man had to be removed to hospital on a stretcher on that day, and he died four days later. The death certificate stated that the cause was hæmorrhage due to gastric ulcer. That case is but an illustration of many others which I could give, although I am withholding them at the request of the men.
  I have, however, a number of other cases of the gravest character. Listen to this: A man attested in February, 1916, and was passed for general service. He had been suffering from gastric ulcer. He was a man of moderate means, and had been in a nursing home. He was engaged in the wholesale fruit and vegetable markets in London. He appealed to the local tribunal on the ground of health, and was given three months' exemption. He was then sent by the Advisory Committee to a medical board, and was passed A 1. He next went into Charing Cross Hospital for examination, and obtained a certificate from a perfectly independent doctor to the effect that he was of little military value. On the strength of that he was given one month's exemption. He appealed again, meantime going before a medical board, which, however, refused to examine him. Again he became an inmate of Charing Cross Hospital, again he appealed, and the appeal was dismissed, the chairman stating that it was a case for the military authorities to decide. I submit that that was a wrong attitude to take up, because the man had a vested right under the statute to have his case determined by the tribunal set up by the statute. Just before the end of last year the man again became an inmate of Charing Cross Hospital. I want the hon. Gentleman to give special attention to this case. This man's appeals on the ground of ill-health were fortified by the evidence of independent doctors—semi-military doctors—at Charing Cross Hospital, and yet they were refused. On 21st December the man had notice to attend at the town hall of his district. He was then suffering from rheumatism, and his mother attended for him in consequence, and explained why he could not do so. The following day, and this shows ho was not a shirker, he went to the town hall in a taxi, and he got an extension of time until the 10th January. A

  2247
  doctor's certificate secured him a further week's extension, and that was enlarged by the military doctor's certificate till later in the month. On the 22nd he was taken to the regimental depôt for the district in a taxi-cab, and was passed for general service. The next day he was sent from "Waterloo to Winchester, and he was so bad when he arrived at the latter town that it took him seventeen minutes to crawl from the station to the barracks —a very short distance. The following day he reported sick. He was given medicine and let off his drill. On the 25th he was sick again and remained in bed all day. On the 26th he left Winchester, and, being physically unable to march, a corporal was told off to carry his kit for him to the station. He arrived at Vauxhall, and rode in an escort wagon to Victoria, and then left for his present destination. He was obliged to ride from the station to the camp in a baggage wagon. By instruction from his lieutenant he reported sick on the following Monday. He was given twenty-four hours off duty. Again, on the following day, he was suffering from violent vomiting at intervals, and had to be let off his military duty. On the 30th he reported sick again. He was examined in hospital, and was recommended for C 2, after examination by a travelling medical board. On the 31st he reported sick again. He was later on admitted to hospital but was detained only one and a half hours. On 4th February he reported sick again, and, as there were no vacant beds in the hospital, he was given some medicine and sent away. For three days he was put on light duty, but part of that light duty was the scrubbing of floors, and work in the cookhouse which he was utterly unable to do. On the 9th January he reported sick again, but, although he was given medicine, he was told to do full duty. He replied that that was impossible, and had three more days of light duty. Again he was sent to the cookhouse, but could not do the work there. He was ordered to carry something up a hill, but broke down after travelling only a hundred yards. He had to report sick again, and since then he has been in hospital.
  I feel it my duty to call attention to these cases, although I have some doubt whether I ought to detain the House for the length of time necessary for the purpose. But here is the case of a man thirty-eight and a half years of age, also
  2248
  suffering from gastric ulcer. He was treated by three doctors, each of whom prescribed a special diet as absolutely necessary to relieve him. He attested in December, 1915, and was rejected. He was re-examined in September, 1916, and passed for C 1. He was called up in November, 1916. On the first night he was compelled to sleep on the bare floor of the drill hall, with only two blankets. The second night he was required to sleep in an empty house without any fire and with the windows open according to Regulations although the weather was most inclement. He continued so for nine nights, and was then provided with a bag of straw to sleep on. A deputation to the captain procured greatcoats. He was ill and weak, and had to go before the medical officer, was put on light duty, and told to await a travelling medical board. He was unable to eat the food supplied, and so had to supply himself out of his own purse. I will take another case, of a man from Norwich, taken into the Army on 8th September, after rejection by three doctors, and passed B 2. He had been an invalid for several years, and the authorities were informed of that, but insisted on taking him. He went into hospital on the third day after arriving in camp, was twice before a travelling medical board, was rejected by both, and placed in Class W Reserve. He tried to get a transfer, but failed, and he was kept from October until the end of January. In the interval a letter was written by the military doctor attached to the battalion to the father, saying that the son was developing an abscess on the brain, and that unless he could consult a specialist and undergo an operation at once he would certainly die. Notwithstanding that, the authorities kept him in that camp from October to January, passing him from hospital to hospital, till he was finally sent home so weak that he had to be treated as a dying man, and he now lies at his father's home in Norwich a hopeless wreck, which could have been prevented altogether by not calling a B 2 man up.
  Here is another case. A man of thirty-six, married, with one child, district agent of an accident insurance company in the Midlands, and therefore a man with a reasonably comfortable position. Attested under the Derby scheme, went before the Oxford Medical Board in August; 1916, told the doctor he suffered from chronic sickness and lived oh a slop

  2249
  diet, and was subject to sudden fits of sickness. He had had this diet for seventeen years, had had double pneumonia and meningitis in 1904, and pneumonia in the left lung in 1911. Notwithstanding this, he was passed for general service. His illness followed almost immediately. At the tribunal a certificate was produced from three doctors saying he was totally unfit for military service, but his application of unfitness for military service was refused. The appeal tribunal sent him to a special medical board, the result of which has apparently not been made known. I have looked at his own statement and find that he could not travel without being liable to violent fits of vomiting. His own account of it is: "I have suffered more or less for seventeen years, and I could cite dozens of instances where I have had to leave off in the middle of a conversation in order to vomit. People I have travelled with said it was scandalous to have passed me. The day I went to the medical board at Oxford for examination I had just got into the train, and before I was seated I had to jump up and was sick. I told the doctor of it, but he smiled and said I should probably have these troubles again, but my business was not of national importance, and they should pass me." That is not the test. The test is whether or not he was suffering from an infirmity. He was passed for general service and has been ill substantially ever since. I will give the names and particulars to my hon. Friend opposite if he desires to have them, but it is obviously most undesirable that I should mention them in the House to be made public property.
  Here is another case: R. C. T., married, with two children, rejection card torn up by the military board in January, 1916. He was made to attest. He was rejected on examination by the military doctor at that time, but was sent subsequently to a medical board and was totally rejected for any form of military service. Notwithstanding that, the military required him to be re-examined, when he was passed for general service and told to report in three months. He had been an in-patient of a hospital seven times in the last four years, suffering from gastric ulcers and abdominal disease, and he had had two operations in fifteen months. He was discharged from his employment because of his illness after eleven years' service, and he recently obtained employment in the Small Arms Factory at Enfield. Notwith-
  2250
  standing that, they insisted upon taking him. He had lived almost exclusively on a milk diet and had been subject right up to recent days to violent attacks of vomiting, and yet that man was certified for general service and taken by the military authorities and expected to do work which he could not possibly do. He therefore became a burden to the State and occupied hospital accommodation. Here is the case of a Sheffield man who suffered from gastric ulcers for twelve years and had to live on special diet, not even being able to drink tea. He was examined by a medical board in April, 1916, and passed for general service, re-examined seven months afterwards, in November, and again passed for general service, and his appeal was dismissed. He says that no doctor stripped him on the second occasion, nor examined him for the gastric ulcers, and the doctors refused to look at the certificates, though they were extremely important evidence of the man's condition.
  I have here a case from Bournemouth of a man who joined up in August, 1916, forty-one years old. He had suffered for years from vomiting blood, and was operated on in November, 1915, but got no better, had to be fed on soups, milk, and other slop food, was very susceptible to cold, when he got extensive hemorrhage. The medical examination was very brief, and all they told him to do was to hop on one leg. That is very much like another case which I have met. I assure the hon. Gentleman it is my experience that men have complained to the medical board that they suffered from varicocele, and the doctors have declined to look at the legs, but at once put the stethoscope to the heart. I suppose there may be some connection between varicocele and the heart. I do not know; but it was done in more than one case. The medical men, seeing that he had a scar on the abdomen, asked him the cause, and he told them he had had an operation for this very gastric trouble, and they refused to listen to him and passed him C 1. He was called up. While he was in the neighbourhood he was able to get proper food. That is one of the things which I suggest to the Under-Secretary ought to have attention. These men who are suffering from gastric troubles, which inflicts such agony upon them, if they are obliged to have the ordinary food of a soldier, should only be put into districts where they are billeted; or, alternatively, let them be kept by them-

  2251
  selves where they can be properly and suitably fed. A man who is so suffering, if he is fed suitably, may still be able to do his work, and will be able to get through an amount of real physical hard work. Once you take away the special milk diet and try to make him take the ordinary food provided by the Army for the men in the Army, then his life is no longer tolerable; he cannot possibly do his work, and hemorrhage sets in, as in the case of this man Dyer.
  I should like quickly to pass over the rest of these cases. There is another case here of a man who has been put into C 3. The medical board put him in C 1. When his commanding officer saw him he at once rejected him from that class, and put him into C 3. The medical board came along, re-examined him, and put him back into C 1. The commanding officer again put him back into C 3, so that there was a kind of see-saw going on in relation to the man. I could show the lion. Gentleman opposite details relating to this ease which show-how absolutely wrong it was to retain a man like this. One night he was suffering from a high temperature and fever. He had not been able to get proper medicine. Finally, after lying the night in agony, he applied to the doctor for relief, and, with several other men, was given three pills to take. I have other cases here of men where, even their employers, taking pity upon their position, have supplied them with necessary funds, or the necessary food, rather than they should take the ordinary Army food. There are a great many of these. I pass them by lest I should take more time than I should. I should like, however, to read one or two passages from a West of England case. It shows the way in which the Act has been used. I will give the case that is designated B. This man has lost one eye, and has been certified as of a debilitated constitution. He is a groom, and his ordinary avocation was looking after his mistress's carriage, and riding his master's second horse at hunting, or looking after his horse when was out in the Yeomanry. When the Yeomanry was mobilised he volunteered to join up so that he might go with his master. He was rejected by the regimental doctor. When volunteers for foreign service was asked for and his master volunteered, the man again volunteered in order to go with him. He was again rejected by the regimental doctor. When Lord Derby's scheme came in, he
  2252
  attested, and was again rejected by the local doctor, who was doing Government work. He was thus rejected three times. When the single men were called up he was again examined and rejected for the fourth time by another local doctor who was doing regimental work. On the strength of these four medical rejections, his master, who had returned from Gallipoli, applied for his exemption to be made absolute, and arranged his establishment accordingly. The man married, and was engaged by his master, his duty now being to drive his mistress and children. The local military representative seeing him, and thinking that he was a good driver, set himself to get hold of him. He first offered a substitute, who on inquiry turned out to be an unclean man, and a waster. He was, therefore, declined. The military representative ordered B to go to county headquarters for medical re-examination. The doctors returned him as Class A. Finally the military representative applied to the local tribunal for a rehearing of the case, and the tribunal ordered the man to join up, stating that as, inasmuch as he had been returned in Class A, they had no power to act otherwise. The man has since joined up.
  One more case. This man—a gardener who attested under Lord Derby's scheme and was returned as Class B. He is stone deaf in one ear, and has a weak heart, due to a severe attack if neuritis which he had a few years since, the effects of which appear in the muscles or nerves of his arms. The medical examiners thought that he had had rheumatic fever. A letter enclosed from him shows that although he had been taken into the Army he had never done any substantial work, and that he was constantly a victim to attacks of rheumatism, and was absolutely unfitted to do any work of any description.
  I have also a special report from a physician in the West of England detailing his experience of the men who were passed under his care, and he makes a very strong point of this, that men were sent into the Army who were suffering from cardiac disease, pulmonary tuberculosis, and complaints of a similar character, and also that when discharged to be treated for rheumatism, instead of being at once sent to Bath or some other spa for treatment, in various instances they are allowed to drift from hospital to hospital before arriving at Bath. In this way

  2253
  not only is their recovery delayed, but great and unnecessary expense is entailed by their transit to and fro. I have given these cases at great length, and I feel that I have no business to detain the House any longer. I should, however, not like to conclude without drawing attention to a subject which I think seems to me to require immediate action on the part of the Government. I refer to the careless way in which some of these medical examinations are conducted. I have here a statutory declaration made by a man who went up for re-examination by direction of the tribunal with which I am associated. He says that there was a man immediately in front of him in a bad condition of disease brought about by causes with which the House is now endeavouring to deal, and that he himself declined to be examined by the doctor. Fortunately it was not necessary for him to refuse, because the doctor refused to examine him, recognising him as having been examined before. But the doctor straight away proceeded to examine other men without any attempt to cleanse his hands or in any way to take proper steps to prevent infection. I mention that to show the carelessness of some medical men. I felt it my bounden duty to bring this matter before the House. I had an Amendment down on the subject previously, but T was unable to get to the House. I therefore decided to take my chance of moving this Amendment in Supply. I trust the result will be an inquiry by competent persons into the whole of these cases.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I beg to second the Amendment. Many of us who have taken an interest in this question are very grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing for using the fortune of the ballot to call attention to this matter. On the adjournment for the Recess last August I raised this question. The present Prime Minister, who was then Secretary for War, denied that there was such carelessenss as has been made evident by the cases which have been submitted to the House. On that occasion, like the hon. Member who has just spoken, I gave a number of specific cases. The present Prime Minister promised, if I would submit any case, that immediate attention should be given to it. I took up the challenge of the Secretary of State for War, and I submitted to him a fairly considerable number of cases.
  2254
  They were formally acknowledged by his private secretary, but only in one of those cases, after a lapse of time exceeding six months, have I had any further word of them. In associating myself with what the hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) said, I do not want this to be regarded as in any way a personal attack on either of the two hon. Gentlemen who are sitting on the Front Bench opposite, for I am extremely grateful to both of them for the courtesy with which they have attended to any complaint which I have addressed to them. From no other Government Department have I received such prompt attention as from the two hon. Gentlemen. It is altogether unnecessary for me to cite additional cases to those which have been brought by the hon. and learned Member who has just sat down. If it were necessary I could keep the House here till eleven o'clock. I have in my possession scores of similar cases.
  There is one matter to which the hon. Member referred more than once, and that is the position of the tribunals in regard to this question. The hon. and learned Member speaks with considerable experience of the working of the tribunals, being the chairman of one of the most important of the Appeal Tribunals. I think the tribunals are not altogether free from blame in regard to this matter, for, as I understand the Military Service Act, the tribunals have the power to give complete exemption to claimants on the grounds of physical incapacity, and I do not know that under the Bill they are compelled to accept the decision of any medical board. Their power seems to override the decision of any Army Medical Board, and I should have been glad if the tribunal had exercised their authority to a greater extent than, I am afraid, has actually been the case. The hon. and learned Member, as the chairman of a tribunal, is not alone in expressing his regret and indignation at the action of the medical boards. I read in a Newcastle paper only two or three days ago that the chairman of an appeal tribunal in county Durham had been expressing himself very strongly indeed about the action of these medical boards in sending unfit men into the Army. I promise not to inflict on the House a considerable number of these cases, but I do want to mention two or three. I was down in my Constituency last week-end, and I came across a number of serious cases of this character. One man came to

  2255
  see me. On his right hand he has no fingers. In the place of a thumb he has a small stump. The man was born like that, and yet the Army medical authorities passed that man for B 1, garrison duty abroad. In addition to this, the man suffers from rupture. He has been quite unable to handle a rifle or to take part in the, ordinary work of the Army. He joined the Army in October. In December he was examined by a travelling medical board. They, I understand, recommended his discharge. His discharge papers have not yet been supplied to him. He does not know where he is or what he is. He has never had a single penny of pay since January. His regiment will not recognise him. They feed him, that is all. They tell him he is not on the strength of the regiment. Could any scandal be greater than to pass into what is practically active service—B 1, garrison duty abroad—a man who is so totally incapacitated for work of that character as this man is?
  Shall I give another case that was brought to my attention on Monday—the case of one of my Constituents? This was a young man who had been delicate from birth. He did not walk until he was two years and eight months old. Almost every year during his infancy and youth he had serious illnesses—pneumonia, pleurisy, and congestion of the lungs. He never kept at school. At the beginning of every winter he has broken down. He was called up for military service. At the beginning of October, as usual, his health broke down. In December his condition became serious indeed. After a few days in hospital he was sent on guard duty. He became seriously ill once more. He was sent to see the doctor. He had two miles to walk to the doctor. He had to wait two and a half hours for his examination. He was ordered at once to return to hospital. That was on Saturday, the 16th December. The following Tuesday the man was dead, and the military authorities offered the family a military funeral, which they indignantly refused. I have seen a letter from the matron of the hospital, and she states that his death was due to neglect. If he had come under her charge a month before, the probability is that he would have been alive to-day.
  Just one further case, which was brought to my attention in my Constituency. This was a man who had been suffering from consumption. He had been discharged from the Army with a pension of 5s. a
  2256
  week, and 3s. for two children. The man was in a state of mental anguish. The week before his wife had died and he had to bury her in a pauper's grave. The man was heartbroken at this indignity and degradation. The next day the man was in hospital. I will give another case also from my Constituency. Amongst the cases I submitted to the present Prime Minister when Secretary of State for War at the beginning of October last was the case of a young man who had joined the Army last May. He was in the Army for forty days only; then he was discharged. He went home straight to bed, and for months he never left. The mother never received one penny of separation allowance. The young man never received one penny of pension. I waited some time for a reply after submitting this case, and received none. I wrote again, and then I received a reply to say the papers had been lost. I supplied particulars of the case once more. The case is still being investigated. The last communication I received was dated the 17th of January. I have repeatedly threatened the War Office to raise this question in this House, and I have hoped against hope that some decision might be arrived at. In reply to my letter of the 17th of January I was definitely promised that the case would be settled immediately. I could go on citing case after case of this sort, but there is no need. That this sort of thing is going on is well within the knowledge of every him. Member of this House, and in fact it is a scandal that is outraging the whole country. Two or three of the cases I have put before the House have caused the greatest indignation amongst the neighbours of the men who are directly concerned. When I spoke in August last upon this matter I said that I believed there was only one way in which this matter could be effectively dealt with, and that was to deal severely with the medical examiners who are found to be careless in the discharge of their duties. I may add with regard to the case which I have mentioned that the man has died; that I was told that the medical officer who examined that man was drunk at the time the examination took place. It is incredible and difficult to imagine how any man with medical experience and qualifications could act in this way.
  I wish to call attention to the practice of calling up men who have previously

  2257
  during the period of this War been rejected on medical grounds. The War Office has a practice of this sort. They fill up the discharge certificate and reject men who are not likely to become efficient soldiers. That may mean anything. It may mean that a man is mentally deficient or that his character is bad. Now the War Office are refusing to recognise that those men were discharged, I brought one very serious case to the attention of Lord Derby when he was Under-Secretary for War. It was the case of a man who had been discharged, and his discharge was worded in the manner I have mentioned. The War Office, however, refused to recognise that as a case of discharge on medical grounds and as being exempt under the provisions of the Military Service Act. I really do not know why the War Office are doing that or why they appear to be so anxious to take men into the Army who can be no more than an expense to the country and certainly of no military value. The only explanation is that the War Office is obsessed by the idea of getting a paper Army, and they think if they put these men on the strength that some useful purpose will be served. I am convinced, from the number of cases that have been brought to my own personal knowledge, that there must be at least a couple of hundred thousand, probably more, of men in the Army who are physically quite unfit for any military duty and who would be rendering far more useful and necessary service in this time of national crisis if they were permitted to go back to their occupation. I hope that this Debate will be productive of greater fruit than a similar Debate which took place six months ago. I hope the Under-Secretary for War will regard this question seriously and be able to give some satisfaction to my hon. Friend who raised this matter.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: The hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) said he was fortunate in having been successful in the ballot. I think the House will agree that hon. Members have been fortunate, because the hon. Member has stated his case very fairly and concisely in regard to the instances which he has brought forward. I listened with a good deal of interest to the statement which the hon. and learned Member placed before the House, and it is not unlikely that it may be true that those instances may have occurred, as well as such cases as those which the hon. Member for Black-
  2258
  burn (Mr. Snowden) has given to-night. One has got to remember that the Army we have at the present moment is a very large one indeed, recruited from all classes of the community. I think I am right in stating that up to the present we have examined 1,500,000 of these men in a comparatively short time. Of course, as I have said, it would be exceedingly surprising if out of such a very large number of cases some mistakes had not been made. I am perfectly certain that a first-class consultant after his life's work could not look back and say that his diagnoses and prognoses had been absolutely accurate in 100 per cent, of his cases. He might say that he had partial or complete failures to the extent of only 1 per cent. If you work that out, as I have done, you will find that 1 per cent, would come to 15,000 cases out of 1,500,000. I think it may be safely said that they have not made mistakes greater than that number; in fact, I might go so far as to say that they have probably made a less number of mistakes. Of course, to get out accurate statistics would cost an enormous amount of time and expense, but I am sure it would be found not only that the mistakes have been small in number, but that the Recruiting Medical Boards on the whole have done extraordinarily well. The suggestion which pervaded the speeches of my two hon. Friends, the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) and the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), was that the military doctors were responsible, but they should not credit the mistakes to the Royal Army medical doctors at all. As a matter of fact, the boards in the main, as they must know, are composed of civilian practitioners belonging to the Territorial Force and the Special Reserve. If you take, as I have taken, sixty-three medical boards, you will find that the proportion of civilian to military doctors is as two to one, and the proportion would work out at a very much higher rate if it were not necessary to have a medical man of military experience as president of the board. I must, therefore, deny that the Royal Army Medical Corps doctors are responsible.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I did not make that suggestion.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: No, but there was that suggestion underlying the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle).
  Mr. NIELD: I did not intend to convey that suggestion.
  9.0 P.M.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-West Lanark stated that these doctors were receiving secret instructions from the War Office. If he will forgive me for saying so, that is a rather monstrous charge to make. They are professional men, and in a great many cases they are men of very high professional and social reputation. I cannot imagine doctors of that character and of that status accepting secret instructions of any sort. I have a greater faith in the British medical practitioner than my hon. and learned Friend has. We have at the head of these boards a very distinguished practitioner, Colonel James Galloway. He is a very distinguished civilian physician, an M.D., an F.R.C.P., an F.R.C.S., senior physician at Charing Cross Hospital, consulting physician to the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and an examiner of the Medical University of London. He is the man who is responsible for the conduct of the boards, and his qualifications, as the House will appreciate, are very high. He occupies a very high position, and to suggest that he is in any way responsible for secret instructions to any of these boards is stretching common sense.
  Mr. PRINGLE: There are a great many of these cases.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: My point is that the percentage is exceedingly small. I have already told my hon. and learned Friend that a first-class consultant, after his life's work, would find probably that he had made 1 per cent, of mistakes, and I calculate that these boards have not made more than that percentage of errors.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Would a Harley Street physician be able to diagnose the case of a man without fingers.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I should think so. I am only trying to assert general principles, but of course it is easy for an hon. Member to bring forward specific cases and to try and tie me down to them. It is a well-known debating point, but I am dealing with general principles, and I am entitled to assert that those general principles are well known to exist. The point was also made that the re-examination of attested men was very unsatisfactory. There, again, when you are dealing with a specific case it is almost impossible to
  2260
  answer. In recent statistics I find in the time covered by the opening period of this year that in a total of 2,000 men only thirteen broke down in training. The fact that only thirteen out of 2,000 men in a certain category break down in training is certainly not a high percentage when you consider the different classes from which the men are drawn and the training that is undergone. I do not know that I can usefully add anything more, but I will engage to make all inquiries in the cases that have been submitted to me by my hon. Friends and to give them, any answer which it is at all possible to give. I cannot now put the matter further than that.
  Mr. NIELD: Will the hon. Gentleman regard gastric cases as a class apart and give special directions?
  Mr. MACPHERSON: To-morrow morning, or as soon as possible, I will bring the cases mentioned before the proper authority. I cannot engage to do anymore.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question again proposed.
  Mr. ANDERSON: The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has drawn attention very truly to the fact that an enormous Army has been built up in a very short time, and under those conditions there is bound to be, and will be, a good deal of individual hardship, and sometimes wrong things done to individuals. I think all Members of the House—and I am quite sure the hon. Gentlemen who represent the War Office will be included—will at any rate wish that the number of hard cases should be reduced to the lowest possible dimensions, and that the War Office should not be a sort of vast machine, a sort of inhuman steam roller that goes rolling blindly over everybody, paying no attention to individual hardships or grievances. Therefore I think it is an excellent thing that the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) and the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) should bring cases before the House such as have been discussed to-night, because, apart from that, there would be no question at all of the voice of the individual who was wronged or injured being heard in the House, or of his case being brought to the attention of members of the department. I wish to say also, as one who has brought many cases to the knowledge both of the Under-Secretary and of the Financial Secretary, that in each case the utmost

  2261
  prompt attention is given when it is specifically brought before them. But there is no doubt at all that in many cases, although those hon. Members act in that way, it would seem that some of their underlings in the localities do not seem to mind at all however much hardship or grievance they inflict.
  There is one small matter I wish to mention, although the War Office are not really the guilty party, but indirectly involved. I think it is a very mean thing, and I think it is a matter about which the War Office should make some inquiries, because it affects arrangements between the War Office and another Government Department. Here is a letter I have received from two wives of soldiers now serving with the Colours, who are post office officials, and this is what they say:
  "Being wives of post office officials who are serving with the Colours, we wish to draw your attention to the stingy action of the responsible post office officials, who have deckled to deduct from the small allowance allotted to us by the Post Office, an amount equivalent to the recent increase granted by the War Office to us for our children, thus taking away all the benefits granted by the War Office to meet the ever increasing cost of living."
  I think that is a very mean thing, and that the Government Department that does that is showing a very bad example to private employers, who when they know that a Government Department acts in that way will be ready enough to follow, and where any increase is granted by the War Office will see that it is deducted, so that the people are really no better off than before. Although some recent concessions were made in regard to separation allowances in respect of children there is still a good deal more that could be done by the War Office in that matter, because it is an undoubted fact, according to official figures, that the cost of living of the working classes has gone up from 60 per cent, to 65 per cent, higher than it was before the War. It always seems to me that we are far more generous to those who invest their money in the War than to those who invest their lives in the War. The rate of remuneration for money has risen very considerably indeed, while in a great many cases there are broken lives that are treated shabbily from the standpoint of the nation. I think it is the business of the House to see that that sort of thing is reduced to the lowest possible dimensions.
  I desire also to draw attention to the treatment of some soldiers who because of their service abroad have become mentally deranged either temporarily or per-
  2262
  manently. Some of those mentally deranged soldiers are being treated as pauper lunatics, and they are not only being put into asylums, but they are becoming chargeable to the guardians and to the parish, with the result that in not a few eases the money that ought to go to them is being taken for their keep, while their families are being left in very poor and miserable circumstances. I was very glad to see a protest made the other day by the Lancashire Asylums Board against that sort of thing I would impress upon the hon. Gentlemen who represent the War Office in this House that there is a feeling in the country that the soldiers whose minds have been unsettled by the experiences through which they have passed should not be treated or regarded as pauper lunatics. Unless this matter is put right there will be a growing feeling of indignation in regard to it which the War Office will find very hard to face.
  Another question I wish to raise is with regard to the relationship between the military and some of the tribunals. In a great many cases recently the tribunals have been complaining of the military representatives, acting under instructions I have no doubt, who have paid very scant regard to the decisions of the tribunals. Some of the tribunals have actually gone on strike, and refused to go on with their work until they come to some better understanding, so far as the War Office is concerned. In a great many cases the military representatives or the local recruiting officers in their treatment of an individual who is brought before them seem to assume that the man does not know his legal rights, and they act very often on that assumption. It is only if someone is able to give advice, or to have the case ventilated, that something is done to put the matter right. We have discussed to-night the question of the unfit. I will not revert to that, except to say that there is the utmost uncertainty among men who have been rejected as totally unfit for any form of military service as to their position. The War Office never seems to be able to give them a definite statement one way or the other. It is cruel to keep men from month to month entirely uncertain as to what is going to happen to them. The mind of the War Office ought to be made up. I am going to read a letter which is typical of a good many letters, and certainly is typical of the circumstances in which many men are

  2263
  placed. This letter is from the manager of a shop, and was written on 20th February. He says:
  "If you could give me advice I should foe very grateful. On 31st May, 1916, I was examined at Worcester and classified as totally unfit for any category of military service. I was given a certificate to that effect. I also showed them a certificate from my own doctor, and that settled the matter. I thought I was done with. Later on I saw by the papers that the Army authorities were sending out pink forms to men who had been rejected, and it was stated that every rejected man would receive one by September or otherwise be considered as finished with. I did not receive one of those pink forms by September or any other date. A week or so ago I received a notice from the Army to present myself for re-examination according to instructions from the War Office. I wrote and said that as I had not received the pink form I considered they could not compel me to be re-examined, being classed as totally unfit. In the meantime I saw two solicitors on the matter. One said they could compel me to go, the other said they could not. In a few days I received a letter from the officer in charge of the recruiting office, Stourbridge, informing me that I was compelled to go as I was an attested man, otherwise if I had not attested they could not compel me and I should he out of their hands. On receipt of this, and bearing in mind how the two lawyers gave two entirely different opinions, I decided there was nothing else to do but go and be re-examined. I went. I am suffering from exactly the same complaint as I was rejected for in May. I told the doctor what was the matter and offered to show him my own doctor's certificate. His only reply was, 'No, there does not seem anything wrong with you now.' He just examined my heart, looked at my hands, said that will do, and it was all over. I was told I would get my papers in a week or so, and I had to come away at that."
  That is happening to a good many people at the present time. It is not much good asking for pledges, because pledges are made by the War Office only to be broken. We have had any number of broken pledges—pledges in regard to this class and that, pledges in regard to lads of eighteen, pledges in regard to men of forty-one, pledges in regard to the unfit and to all sorts of people, and almost without exception those pledges have been broken. Cannot the hon. Gentleman at least tell us where the people stand in regard to this matter? Does the War Office know? Has it made up its mind? A very definite understanding has been given to the House, but that understanding is being overriden rough-shod every day so far as the local recruiting offices are concerned. I know that it is so, and it is time that something very definite were done m regard to it.
  Early in the Debate a question was raised as to the waste in connection with some of the camps. I cannot speak with any authority in regard to that, but it is true that allegations are constantly being made and repeated, and those allegations ought to have been inquired into by the War Office. I sometimes see Salisbury
  2264
  Plain mentioned in this connection. Complaints were recently brought before the Wiltshire War Agricultural Committee. One farmer on the Committee said that the waste of bread was deplorable. He said that it could be bought in any quantity if one saw the right sergeant, that half-legs of mutton and half-sirloins of beef had been found amongst the camp refuse, and that some farmers were buying it for their pigs. These charges ought to be investigated. If they are not true, men ought to be prevented from making these statements in public places. As to the scheme of substitution which is being carried out by the War Office, it is being pushed to great length, and is not adding to the economic strength of the country. It is largely a question of fitting round pegs into square holes. There is a great loss of efficiency. An Army cannot in itself be strong unless there is economic power behind the Army. That economic strength is being weakened as you take men in increasing volume away from the land and from essential industries. The President of the Board of Agriculture has stated clearly, frankly, and truly that it is no good taking a skilled agricultural labourer away, and putting in his place some man who has never been used to the land before, and who knows nothing about it. A great many individual hardships, needless hardships, are being inflicted in connection with this scheme. I should like to read a letter which I received the other day from Bargoed, in Wales. This is the case of a married man who has five children, a wife, and a mother to maintain. He was forced to leave his employment early in February owing to the local tribunal sending a substitute, a single man to replace him. He is, therefore, out of employment entirely until such time as his appeal will be heard. An appeal has already been sent in. At the previous appeal, which his employer made on his behalf, no definite decision was given, except that a substitute was to be found in six months. In the meantime, the man is pushed out of employment altogether. He is not eligible to join the Army, he is no longer getting any payment from the employment, and he is left stranded. I think that is an exceedingly unsatisfactory state of affairs. How far the War Office is prepared to go in the matter of substitutes I do not know, but I read this in a newspaper last night:
  "At Highgate an ex-convict was charged with being a suspected person. Detective-Sergeant Grose said that on his release, from prison in November the

  2265
  prisoner was examined for the Army and classified C2. He was recommended for substitution. The witness asked him if he intended to do any work, and he replied that on that question he had to await the discretion of the substitution officer. The officer added that many men in the same category as the prisoner were associated together and were a menace to the neighbourhood. There had been many robberies of late."
  If the War Office is going to act in regard to these men as it has in regard to a certain other class of men, I think the people they axe most likely to substitute them for would probably be night watchmen inside some of the larger banks. But in many cases the men who are taken are not being put to any very useful employment. Some of them are acting as servants of officers, and so on.
  I wish to raise the question of the recent military raid on a meeting of shop assistants at Glasgow and to state what happened. There has been a movement going on among some shop workers in Glasgow for an increase in the wages of employés in the wholesale drapery houses. It has been very strongly resisted by the employers, some of whom refused to see representatives of the trade unions and act on the old idea that if there is any grievance each individual employé must go and speak to the employer direct, and they will not recognise the union in any way. Various meetings have been arranged. One was arranged for the employés of these wholesale houses. The meeting was only decided upon, and bills were only issued the night before, and yet in a very strange fashion the military got to know of it and came in and disturbed it by demanding to see all the exemption cards of those who were present. The Under-Secretary for War told me yesterday that the police did not interfere until the meeting was over, but that is not accurate. They interfered at the very point when the names of new members were about to be taken, and the result is that the whole purpose and value of the meeting was destroyed. All these men are employed in shops in Glasgow. If any of them were absentees under the Military Service Act their names would have to be given by the employers, and I want to ask the War Office what was the purpose of this raid upon a trade union meeting? How did the military authorities come to know about it? Who inspired the idea of the military visiting it in this way? I should like to ask whether the War Office has made or inspired similar raids upon other trade union meetings, and, if not, why this one was specially selected, because there is a suspicion in the minds of some of the assistants that
  2266
  the matter was inspired by the employers themselves for the purpose, not of getting military absentees, but of destroying, if possible, the value of the meeting. At any rate, not a single military absentee was found. The representative of the War Office will very readily admit that.
  The last point to which I wish to refer is that unless we are careful we are going to get increasingly the Prussianising of some of our ideas here at home. I have here a form which is issued by the military representatives from one of the London areas to men who had secured temporary exemption and whose certificates of exemption come up for review. They are asked a large number of questions, which are to decide whether their certificates will be renewed or will be put an end to. Some of the questions are really absurd. They have no right to be asked, and they form an inquisition of an entirely objectionable character. The men who are applying on personal grounds are asked a number of questions, some of which I have no doubt might very properly be asked: "What is the average total sum you earn per week, the name of your employer, your exact duties," and so on. But they go on to questions of this sort: "What meals do you have at home? What is the rent of your house? In whose name is the lease or agreement for the house? What is the name and address of your landlord? What standing charges other than rent have you? In some cases I believe business men have to place all this information before the military advisory committee, some of whom are their own trade rivals: "State fully the class of business you do, your business address, rent of business; state weekly, quarterly, yearly, as the case may be. If your rent does not include rates, state the rates separately. What is your weekly turnover? What is your weekly profit? What sum do you give your wife or housekeeper for household expenses, and state if the rent is paid out of such sum. Give particulars of your family. What is the value of (a) your stock, and (b) your plant and machinery?"
  Mr. FORSTER: On what occasion is that form required?
  Mr. ANDERSON: This is issued by the military representative in order to go before him and before the advisory committee to decide them in their attitude when the man's appeal for a renewal of his exemption comes up, and it is said

  2267
  that they are reviewing certificates of exemption which have been granted by a certain military service tribunal, and in order that they may consider the desirability of
  "allowing your certificate to continue in force or to be renewed on any subsequent application you may make, these questions are asked."
  I am quite willing to hand the document to the representative of the War Office, and I think something a great deal less than that might be asked, especially if you remember that in the first instance the applicant had to run the gauntlet of a whole series of questions, and that he was very closely examined by the tribunal itself. I bring these matters up because I think it is very well that they should be discussed in this House, although when matters of individual grievance or hardship have been brought forward, I have found the utmost promptitude and consideration on the part of the representatives of the War Office, when we can reach their ear.
  Mr. A. WILLIAMS: I have put down on the Paper a Motion which the Rules of the House do not allow me to move. I had hoped to be able to call attention to the whole question of pensions and separation allowances, but I find on inquiry that I should not be in order in dealing with the question of pensions generally on this Vote, although I shall be in order in dealing with such limited number of pensions as are still within the control of the War Office; and with regard to separation allowances, I take it that this is the chief, almost the only, opportunity we have of discussing them in this House. I should like first of all to congratulate the authorities on the very considerable improvements which have taken place with regard to separation allowances and those pensions which are within the control of the War Office during the continuance of this War. If you look back there have been three stages. At the beginning of the War these pensions and separation allowances were, I think we shall all agree, wretchedly small. They were fixed on a scale of a long-ago time, when money was scarce and had a much greater purchasing power, and when the ideas of national responsibility to its servants were much less humane and much less enlightened than at present. When the War was about a year old there was a very great improvement. That improvement brought our Army to
  2268
  the position of being much better treated in the matter of pensions and separation allowances than any other army in the world. Now I am glad to say we lave still further improved matters. This further improvement has been necessary in order to remedy certain defects which have been found as time went on and to meet the great fall in the purchasing value of money. Yesterday a new Warrant appeared. I cannot discuss that, but I might say in passing that it represents very great improvements in many respects. About a month ago we had a greatly improved scale of separation allowances. That was another great step forward. Speaking generally, I think these changes, subject of course to some exceptions, put the families of soldiers when they belong to the unskilled labouring classes, in most cases, in as good a position as the wife and children would have been in if the soldier had remained at home. There are, of course, exceptions, especially the exception of a wife who is unable to work and is without children, or the wife with only one child, but where there is a larger family the position is, I think, generally speaking, very satisfactory as to the families of soldiers belonging to the unskilled labouring classes. When you come to the families of artisans and of miners and people earning wages of about the same value as they do, the position is not so satisfactory. They are often obliged to make very considerable sacrifices, but I suppose we may say, with rare exceptions, the allowances do put them, at any rate, beyond the reach of want. There are hard, exceptional cases, but some of them, happily, can be met by the local committees.
  I have said so much on this subject because I hope it is tactful to admit the good things that the authorities have done, and I am sure that if the hon. Member (Mr. Forster) recognises that I approach the matter in this spirit he will take in good part and approach in the same spirit any criticisms which I may now make. In spite of the improvements I have mentioned we have to regret that there are still very considerable defects and very considerable hardships in connection with these pensions and separation allowances which cause a great deal of suffering to the people concerned. There are many cases. I should like, first of all, to take a very important case, which has created very much feeling in the county of which which I have the honour to be a representative—I mean the case of men who

  2269
  have been passed into the W Reserve and the WT Territorial Force Reserve. These men, we have been told recently, on several occasions, are men who were supposed to be lit for civil employment and who had been asked for to come back into civil life, and we were told that unless it had been done by some individual error, no unfit man had been passed into the W Reserve. I am sorry to say that that is entirely a mistake. As my authority for that statement I have no less a person than the Secretary of State for War himself, who very frankly admitted in the House of Lords yesterday that he had been entirely in error with regard to that matter, and that up to a recent time there was an order of the War Cabinet that men who were wanted back for civil life should be passed into the W Reserve, irrespective of whether they were fit to do work or not. That state of things has applied especially to miners. There is a system by which colliery proprietors or managers can apply for individual miners who have worked for them and ask to have them sent back. They have asked for men by their names, and these men were sent back and passed into the W Reserve; and in many cases were so passed, although the authorities who sent them must have known that they were quite unfit to take up that laborious occupation. I have had a great heap of complaints about this matter, but I will only touch very briefly on a few points. From the war pensions district committee in Auckland there comes the following statement:—
  "In very many of these cases men are evidently quite unfit for any work. It continually happens that men are transferred and endeavour to start work but break down in the course of a day or two, and for these men no provision is made."
  Another district committee under the Statutory Committee says of one of these cases:
  "A case in point which came under our notice may usefully illustrate the position. A man had been badly wounded in the face, his jaw being shattered. He underwent many operations, and no doubt everything that medical science and surgical skill could do was done for him. He claims to have passed before fifty doctors as a sort of exhibit of the triumph of surgery. But when all the resources of skill had been called upon the man was left lock-jawed, unable to part his teeth for more than one-eighth of an inch, and as a consequence cannot partake of solid food but subsists on soft, sloppy messes and liquids. In this condition the man was discharged to work (Class W Reserve). As the only work he had had any training for was mining, he found himself unable to keep physically fit for his laborious employment. We took up his case, explained it fully, and recommended him to the consideration of the Chelsea Commissioners for a partial pension, and we were informed that the case of a man in that Class could not he entertained so long as he was in that, Class, but that inquiry would be made as to whether he should be so retained."
  2270
  In the same way the Statutory Committee sent word that they were quite unable to deal with the case. I have many other cases of the same kind, of men who have been sent back to work in the mines, although it was perfectly evident that they were quite unfit for it. There is another class of men who are fit and who were sent home, and when they get home they are penniless, for often the separation allowance of the wife has already been stopped. There was no money in the house, and although they went to work at once it was a fortnight before any money was coming in, and they had to appeal either to charity or to the local committee and the Statutory Committee for help. The local committee had not the power to help. The Statutory Committee sent word to us that they had no power to grant this help. Those are cases of very great hardship, and the committees all over the country are crying out about them. Many committees in other parts of the country are also crying out about them. I have another case of a man who was wounded with shrapnel in the head and also gassed. He was one of those sent home for Class W, and when he got home he found that his wife's separation allowance had been stopped. He was obliged to get work, but he could only do very little work. By and by, after I had written about the case, and three months had elapsed, he was discharged from the Army and given a very small pension. I say that men in that position, who have been improperly passed into W Reserve, ought to have some compensation for the time they have been lying ill and unable to work, and have not been discharged from the Army, so as to get any pension or allowance. The Lord Lieutenant of the county of Durham (the Earl of Durham) has spoken very strongly in another place on this matter, and written very strongly about it in the public Press. There is a very strong feeling in the country, especially in the county Durham, on this matter, and I believe that they will insist upon justice being done. Lord Durham writes to me to say that the whole county is determined on this matter.
  These men may be divided into two classes. One, mea who have been wrongly transferred into Class W, either as an individual blunder, or because of the general rule of sending unfit men into that class, and some arrangement ought to be made by which those men should receive some compensation, or whatever you like to call

  2271
  it, for the time they have been in that class unable to earn their living. Lord Derby, in the House of Lords on the 17th of last month, promised to bring this matter before the notice of the Minister for Pensions, whom I am pleased to see before me now. I hope that he may be able to see his way to meet such cases. Then there are the cases of men who have been rightly transferred, but who had nothing given to them by which they could bridge over the time between coming back to work and their first pay coming in, which in coalmining, at any rate, is only after a man has been working a fortnight. Some allowance ought to be given to these men for the first week or two. In many of these cases, although the man may be apparently fit for work when sent back, he very soon breaks down again. I hope some provision will be made for meeting their cases. I know Lord Derby said yesterday that he was sending out cards to know whether these men considered they were suffering from disability when they were discharged, and whether it was due to their service, and what was their reason for thinking so. But that would be a very slow process for getting all that information in, and a very poor comfort to a man in an out of the way village on the top of a mountain in Durham, who has broken down and cannot go even to the military hospital, where he is now told that he has the right to go. I hope that some power will be given to the district committees to give these men any necessary help.
  I pass to another point on which I think the War Office should make some change for the better in practice. That is the case of men who have been killed when off duty. There have been very hard cases which have come under my notice. For instance, there was the case of a man stationed at Darlington. He had been in the town, not on military duty. He was going back to his work in khaki at the time, and was killed. It was held that he was off duty. There are a good many such cases. I think that the War Office should make itself responsible for all men in the Army who meet with fatal accidents during the time of their military service, because this would be only putting the War Office in the position of insuring these men, and if not you have the greatest difficulty in deciding the question of on duty or off duty, and a great deal of hardship results, whereas if the men were insured in the
  2272
  ordinary way the hardship would be removed. Another question which the War Office ought to consider is that of the men who only get a compassionate allowance, the 4s. 8d. cases as they are called, men who become invalids, but are supposed to have been unsound before enlistment. J think that 4s. 8d. is a very small allowance in such cases, and I hope that the War Office will see their way to reconsider it.
  With regard to separation allowances, I was very glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say to-day that the system of separation allowances was going to be extended to officers below a certain grade. The only question that occurred to me was that it was to be necessary for the officer in that case to prove necessity, You do not ask the private soldier or the non-commissioned officer to prove necessity, but the pay is based on so much if he is married and so much more if he has children. I think it would be very much to the interest of the Service and the country if the junior officers, at any rate, in the Army had a similar right, without proving necessity, to claim separation allowances for wife and children. The most serious complaint which I have to make to-night with regard to these separation allowances is the delays that take place. They are many and grievous. They affect many poor folk who always live from hand to mouth because their earnings have never been sufficient for anything else, and to them it is an extreme hardship. It is perhaps very difficult to realise this, but nevertheless it is the duty of all concerned to try to avoid it. It takes in some cases as much as six months to settle a small claim. I am thinking of one of which I have particulars. A woman claimed a small sum of money which she said was due as balance of separation allowance when her husband came home. It took six months to settle that small claim.
  There is another case of a man who was drowned in October, 1915. The separation allowance was stopped within a month. I wrote to the War Office in the following June. I reminded them in July. Four months after I first wrote I got an answer to say that there had been careful inquiry and that nothing had been allowed, but that the matter was going to be referred to the Statutory Committee. The woman got nothing from the Statutory Committee. I have not been able to ascertain whether the decision has been absolutely settled against her, or whether it is still under consideration—sixteen months after

  2273
  the man died. Why need these delays occur? Why need there be any gap between the cessation of a soldier's pay and separation allowance, when the man dies, and the commencement of pension? Or again, when a soldier is sent home, should not he be retained on the strength, and his pay and separation allowance continued until the time his pension begins? I believe that I have heard the hon. Gentleman himself express the desire that that should be so, but I am afraid that it is very far from being the case at present. Another point is the assessment of dependence. That is still in a very unsatisfactory condition. It takes, as a general rule, about two months to assess the dependence. When a young man goes into the Army, it is about two months before his mother knows at what rate her dependence upon him is assessed. Meanwhile, in many cases, she has applied to the district committee, and they have had to inquire into the matter and make her some temporary allowance, so that the process of inquiry is gone through twice over. I ask why not leave it to the local or district committee to assess dependence in all these cases? At present the pension officers have to do ft, and they are also officers of the Inland Revenue, and Inland Revenue officers are at present very much overworked, and the staff is depleted. I suggest, therefore, that it would be very desirable to leave it to the district committee to make these inquiries, and talk over the verdict on the matter.
  There is another point very closely connected with the same thing, and that is the application for dependant's allowance. In many cases it happens that the forms are lost, and mistakes arise. That is not unnatural, when one remembers that these applications are made upon loose papers, and I believe unnumbered papers. If the application is lost, a new application has to be made, and if the new application goes through all right, the allowance dates from the second application and not from the first. There may be an interval of two or three months, and during that time the mother loses any allotment or dependant's allowance to which she would have been entitled. The ordinary business experience in similar cases is to have such forms in a book in triplicate, and numbered, so that the form, as made out, is retained in the book for reference—one is given to the soldier himself, and one sent to the dependant for use in asking for the allowance. In that way many mistakes would
  2274
  be avoided, and much hardship. I am quite certain, however, that, whatever you do, mistakes and delays will occur. I have here a resolution which has been passed by a very important board of guardians in my district, and it is very much to the point. It is a resolution asking that the Government should place a sum of money at the disposal of some local committee to assist immediately the many hard cases of disabled and discharged soldiers who are left to their own resources, and without any means of support. I commend that suggestion to the hon. Gentlemen. I think that if a sum of money were at the disposal of a local committee, it must be absolutely at their discretion, so that the Committee can act at once, and not have to refer to London as to whether such a payment is within or without their power.
  10.0 P.M.
  As to the W Reserve men of whom I have spoken, the Committee would be quite willing to help them in many cases, but we are told in London that there are not powers to do so. If the local committee were allowed a sum of money they should have power to act absolutely on their own discretion in cases where there must be inevitable hardship in working under the ordinary system. I wish also to raise the question that the amount of the dependence allowance is in some cases unsatisfactory. I think that in the case of mothers that very often is so, and, with the present high prices of food and cost of living, it is quite certain that the sons would now have been allowing them more money than they were at the time they were taken into the Army. I submit that the mother of a soldier who has been to any extent dependent upon him ought to be allowed a reasonable sum to live upon, without too minute an examination of the exact amount she was deriving from her son before he went into the Army. I do not think it is to the honour of this country that young men should be fighting in the Army, while the mother is receiving an allowance quite inadequate for her support. There is a very kindred point, namely, the dependence allowance to grandmothers, or widowed mothers, or other people in that position. It is limited under all circumstances to 12s. 6d.; it cannot be more than 12s. 6d. There are a great many cases where young men have gone into the Army, leaving a widowed mother, grandmother or aunt, or whoever she may be, with considerably

  2275
  more than 12s. 6d.—perhaps £1 or more than £1 a week. The limit of allowance in such cases of 12s. 6d. is an amount on which these women cannot live. It is hard enough for a woman living by herself, with every exercise of economy, to live upon £1 at the present time, but it is almost impossible to live upon 12s. 6d. a week, especially where the man has been allowing before he went away £1 a week. I think that £1 ought to be what I may call the lowest maximum to be chosen, and 12s. 6d. is much too low a maximum. A gentleman from the North of England, deputy-chairman of an Appeal Tribunal, writes to me on this very point, and says that in these cases rather than send a woman into the workhouse the tribunal sends a man, who would otherwise fight in the Army, to munition works to earn money. That is the position in regard to a good many cases. It is not, however, to the interest of the country. It may be that the tribunals ought not to do that, but it is at any rate a very natural thing, and shows a great deal of human nature, that they decline to send these women to the workhouse, and therefore they find some means to send a young man to munitions work instead of to the Army. I know I may be told that there is power to apply to the Civil Liabilities Commission. I know something about that, as I am chairman of one of the panels, and I know that we have power to meet these cases in a great many instances, but we have not power to grant money for the whole cost of living.
  I will touch very briefly on one or two more points. One has regard to the wife going into the infirmary, the workhouse infirmary, or any other institution supported out of the rates. When she does so her separation allowance is stopped. I believe that is not so in the case of I children, but in the case of the wife it is so, I understand. If the wife goes to a lunatic asylum someone must be paid to look after the children and keep the home going, and it is very hard that in such a case the wife's allowance should be stopped. Moreover, the cost of the maintenance of the woman in this case falls upon the board of guardians. Those bodies strongly object to this. I have a resolution from a board of guardians strongly objecting. I do not suppose they would object if they knew that the separation money was still going to keep the
  2276
  home together and to pay for someone to look after the children. But when it is put into the pocket of the Chancellor of the Exchequer they consider it unfair that they should be called upon to bear the cost of maintaining the woman out of the rates.
  I wish to touch upon the position of one very unhappy and helpless class of people, and that is the class of wives who are separated from their husbands—who have been deserted or have been obliged to get a magistrate's maintenance order against a bad husband. When that man goes into the Army the wife is treated, as I consider, in a very mean way, on the ground that she has not been actually maintained by her husband. If she has been deserted I believe she gets no separation allowance, and if the man has not paid the sum he has been ordered to pay under the magistrate's order the wife also gets no separation allowance from the Army. At any rate that was the case until recently, and if it has been altered I should be glad to know what the practice now is. Even where the man has paid under a separation order the woman does not get the full separation allowance which a happy wife, no more meritorious than herself, is entitled to. She only gets up to the amount of the magistrate's order, which may be about six shillings per week. Of course, there is added to that any sum which the man may allot out of his pay, and I am glad to know that many of these men do make some such allotment.
  I will only ask, in conclusion, is there not some better way of dealing with these points of detail and of securing a settlement of them than we have at the present time? I do not think that discussion across the floor of the House constitutes a satisfactory or conclusive method. In spite of the courtesy of the hon. Gentleman who is going to reply and of other Ministers, I certainly do not find that correspondence is a very satisfactory way of dealing with these questions. May I, for myself alone, make the suggestion that there might occasionally be a small conference between the War Office authorities and Members of this House especially interested in these matters, at which points can be taken up one by one and thrashed out, and a considerable improvement of working thereby effected? At any rate that might help us to perfect our system, and to do what I am sure we all desire to do. We cannot hope to build up

  2277
  a perfect system, but we all wish to have the best possible system of looking after the dependants of the men who are so heroically fighting for the safety of the country and for the future freedom of humanity.
  Colonel HOPE: I wish to ask the Financial Secretary if he cannot see his way to reduce the period which it now takes fox settling allowances to dependants and unmarried wives. At the present moment the minimum time is about two and a half months. Many a soldier has to leave the country before his parents or his unmarried wife are put in a satisfactory position as regards finances. The procedure is a little cumbrous. The man when he first enlists makes a claim which goes to the paymaster. There is little delay there, as the paymaster passes the claim on in a day or two to the old age pensions officer, and that is where the delay takes place. The old age pensions officer has to make the investigation. Then the matter comes before the local pensions committee, and all this procedure takes time. If the old age pensions officer and the pensions committee agree, the matter goes back at once to the paymaster; but if they disagree, then there is further delay, because the War Office has to send down a representative to investigate and to decide as between the two authorities. The instructions to the paymaster are that if he does not get the report back within five weeks he shall send a reminder to the old age pensions officer. He is to send a second reminder two weeks later, and if at the end of two calendar months he is still without a reply, then he is to report to the War Office, and he is to make such report on the 15th of each month. These instructions to the paymaster amount to an acknowledgment that the claim may not be decided in less than two and a half months. This is largely owing to the fact that there is divided control. The War Office authorities have no real control over the old age pensions officer, and still less has the paymaster any such control. I see the difficulty of handing the matter over entirely to the pensions committee for decision, but I do think the War Office should insist on an explanation being called for from the pensions officer after a delay of one month, rather than two months. They might also press on the Customs and Excise authorities to urge the pensions officers to take a little more
  2278
  rapid action. I know there are difficulties in the London area, where the delays are especially glaring. There is more work to be done. But still the investigators are very dilatory, and a little pressure might be used to get these cases dealt with a little more quickly.
  I am very glad to hear that something is to be done on behalf of the married junior officers who joined for the period of the War. I only trust that it will be taken as a general principle that most of these young officers, on small rates of pay, who have joined for the War, do find that their pay is not sufficient to maintain a wife and much less children. It should be a general rule that they should get something under this new scheme, and I trust that the procedure will not be made very complicated. Some few officers have, I am aware, benefited under the Civil Liabilities Committee, but owing to the great rush of claims made by officers shortly after a certain statement in this House there has been great congestion of work, and I know of cases where officers who put in their claim four months ago are still without any answer. I do hope that under the new scheme the decisions will be fairly rapid. Many officers who joined from patriotic motives thought the War would last but a short time, and that they would consequently be able to carry on somehow. But the War has lasted a very long time. The cost of living meantime has nearly doubled, and the consequence is that nearly everyone of these young married officers is hard put to it to carry on. I hope their case will be sympathetically considered.
  Sir C. NICHOLSON: I am sure we thank the hon. Members who have spoken for bringing these cases to the notice of the House. I have had a considerable amount of experience in dealing with these cases, almost from the commencement of the War up to the present time, and especially from the 1st July, when the London County Committee took over the whole of this question. The hon. Member for North-West Durham (Mr. Williams) alluded to cases dealt with under Class W, and he spoke of two particular classes, one of them being the man who breaks down very shortly after ho has begun work, and the other being the interval that elapses before a man begins to draw his first amount of wages. Those are both very serious things. With regard to the first class of cases, I am quite sure that there is too early a discharge from hospital in a

  2279
  great many of these cases. They are not allowed sufficient time to recover from their wounds, and a certain number of cases have been brought to my notice which have shown that when a man gets back to hard work his wounds tend to suffer and his chance of recovery is enormously delayed, and I most earnestly urge on the War Office that extreme care should be taken not to discharge these men from the hospitals until it is fairly certain that they are able to go back to the work in which they had been formerly employed. It is true that the interval that elapses between a man being discharged and the time that he begins to earn wages is not usually a long one, but sometimes it necessitates that the man has to move from the hospital where he is, possibly with the whole of his family, to the place where he is going to work. That is an enormous drain on the resources of the man, and the period of a week or a fortnight has to elapse before he receives anything at all. It sometimes happens that the first thing is that some member of the family will make application to one of the district committees or sub-committees of the local committee under the Statute. The hon. Member has mentioned that in some cases they have said they are unable to assist, but the reason is that the Statutory Committee has no power to assist anybody unless he is a discharged man. The people who are in Class W Reserve are not discharged men, and they are still on the books of the Army, and I think some arrangement ought to be made by which these difficulties could be got over. At any rate, if the War Office cannot meet the points which have been mentioned, powers might be given to the Statutory Committee to deal with these cases in the interval.
  Another point referred to was the definition of what is on duty or off duty. I should be very sorry to bore the House with the innumerable cases of this nature which have passed under my notice, but I would like to allude to one. This was the case of a man who met his death by an accidental gunshot wound in France. That was the verdict of the first court of inquiry which examined into the matter. For some reason or other a second court of inquiry was held over this man, and the verdict of it was that he met his death by accidental gunshot wound incurred while on duty. The fact of his death was, of course, reported to his widow, and she
  2280
  when she applied for it it was refused. Under these circumstances she applied to one of the local committees for assistance for what is called a special temporary allowance from the Statutory Committee. The case came before the London County Committee, and we naturally wanted to know why it was the woman had been refused a pension. It turned out that the man had been picked for mounted picket duty. While on his horse, or in mounting, the animal became restive, and the man's knees somehow became entangled with the trigger of his gun, which went off, and he was shot. Whether he died immediately or in hospital I do not know. Anyhow, he was killed. One would have thought that that would have been quite sufficient to entitle his widow to a pension. On inquiry, however, it appeared that there is an Army Order that says when a man goes on mounted picket duty he has to carry his rifle, but to carry it unloaded. One would have thought it sufficient punishment for the man to be killed, and that it was not necessary to punish the widow and children. There the matter stands. Till now the widow and her children have received no recognition from the State. I could give many similar instances. If only for the guidance of the local committees, it is essential that the War Office should give some sort of definition of what is "on" and "off" duty. Then we shall, at any rate, know the class of cases with which we have to deal.
  Another matter alluded to by the hon. Member was the delay in setting up separation allowances. I quite admit that the War Office has had extreme difficulties to contend against. At the same time the general situation would be chaotic had it not been first for the existence of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, and finally now the committees acting under the Statutory Committee. They have advanced money when it has not been forthcoming from the War Office, and it is rather a serious matter that so many of these committees are kept out of the money for so long which they have advanced on behalf of these cases. The other day I went down to me of the committees in North London, and I put the question there as to how many cases the War Office had not settled up the advances of separation allowances. I was told that there were pages of these cases. From 1st July to the 31st December there were 269 cases in which the committee advanced

  2281
  money, and had not yet been able to recover those advances from the War Office. On the other hand, I am bound to say that whenever I have been at the War Office, and seen either the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary, or those who are associated with him, they have met me in a most courteous manner, and so far as they could help to produce any impression matters have been slightly improved. But there is an enormous range of possibility for improvement in this matter. We have 46 committees for the whole of London. If what I have stated applies to one committee in North London, the House will realise the enormous delay in getting these amounts settled over the whole of these various committees. If in London the total is so large, what about the rest of the country?
  There is the question, too, of the delay in dependants' separation allowances I am quite aware that an enormous amount of work has been placed upon the Customs and Excise officers at the present time, and unfortunately the matter was complicated by, as I understand, the Government sending down a message to say that the question of the increased old age pensions was to have precedence. I have had many cases put into my hands of this nature. One of the worst, I think, is the one to which the hon. Member has just alluded, the fact that it takes about a couple of months to look into a case. I had a case through my hands where the allotment was made by the soldier, and the official whose duty it was to see the dependant in question had not been inside the house for six months after the allotment was made. Surely delay of that sort ought to be got over by some method or another. What takes places in these cases? The dependant does not get her dependant's separation allowance advanced to her. She goes to one of the committees under the Statutory Committee and applies for assistance. The local committee has to make some sort of assessment of what the dependence on the soldier was, and arrives at a conclusion which, I venture to think, is very much the same sort of conclusion as the Customs and Excise officer would come to if he made the investigation himself. There are, therefore, as the hon. Member for North-West Durham said, two sets of people doing exactly the same class of work, and I cannot for the life of me see why, when all this pressure is being put on the Customs and Excise officers at the present
  2282
  time, and the staff is enormously depleted, the responsibility for assessing the dependant's allowance should not be left with the local committee. It would be very much more quickly done, and I venture to say that the difference between the two would not be worth the salary which is being paid to the people who are doing this work on behalf of the Customs and Excise.
  The hon. Member for North-West Durham alluded to one other point I should like to emphasise most strongly. I do think it is a cruel thing to stop separation allowance to a woman who is, through no fault of her own, bound to go into some rate-supported institution. It is true that separation allowance goes on to the children, but if the mother is taken away to a rate-supported institution the home has got to be kept up until she comes out, and, unless the separation allowance is continued, it is evident that the rent cannot be paid, and the children cannot live in the home to which they have been accustomed. I do think that that is a point which well merits the consideration of the authorities at the War Office. I could mention many other cases of difficulty and delay which have passed under my notice. I quite admit the enormous difficulties the War Office has to face, but I do think it is time that some steps were taken to relieve the anxiety of all of us who are doing our best to make the lives of these people, who are certainly suffering a considerable amount of trouble, as easy as it is possible to do.
  Colonel Sir CHARLES SEELY: I only rise first to thank, on behalf of the volunteers, the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War for the words which he used in regard to them, and to say to him that there is nothing he could have said which could have given them greater pleasure, or which could more conduce to the increase and efficiency of that force than the statement he made this afternoon, that within six weeks or a month every one of those who are in Section A are to have arms given to them, because the one difficulty which has occurred to all the volunteers, and the one fact which has made a difficulty in raising them and of inducing men to come forward, has been the difficulty of providing arms for them to use in case they are required. The other object I have in rising is to make a suggestion with regard to questions which have been raised as to the pay of officers who have

  2283
  been raised from the ranks, or for any reason are officers who are unable to live on their pay. It must be obvious to everyone that men who are raised from privates or non-commissioned officers may be in some difficulty when they are given commissioned rank with regard to the support of their wives and families. It has been arranged, as I understand, that the Civil Liabilities Committee should deal with those cases, but we were informed this afternoon by the Secretary to the Treasury, in reply to a question, that there would be considerable delay in dealing with this question. What I should like to suggest would be that in those cases of men whose wives and families were already in receipt of a separation allowance, that separation allowance should be continued to them for one, two, or possibly three or four months, until the Civil Liabilities Committee were able to deal with the question. I only suggest that to my right hon. Friend opposite because it seems to me that it is the kind of solution usually adopted in private businesses when men are moved from one position to another, namely, that any arrangements made in their present position are continued until their new position is established and they are able to make arrangements which enable them to support their families. I make this suggestion after all due consideration of the difficulties, and I think it would be a very great boon to those who are given commissions in consequence of their bravery in the field or general good service to the country, to whom the country owes very great consideration and who it seems to me, if their commissions are stopped on the day their commissions are gazetted may be put into considerable difficulty, and I hope this may be got over by the suggestion I have made.
  Mr. FORSTER: I can only speak by leave of the House, but if hon. Members will allow me I will say a few words in reply to the points raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for North-West Durham (Mr. A. Williams) and the hon. Baronet the Member for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson) both raised the question of Class W and the hardship they suffer from the effect of wounds or disability while in that Reserve. I wish at once to associate myself with what my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War said in the House of Lords with regard to answers both he and I have given on previous
  2284
  occasions in regard to the magnitude of the difficulties to which my hon. Friend opposite has alluded. Both my Noble Friend and I thought that the object for which Class W was created had been continued, and that the original practice was the present practice. We spoke in all good faith, but, having discovered that we spoke in error, we both naturally agreed to take the earliest opportunity of saying so quite frankly, and of also saying what we propose to do to meet the situation.
  When Class W was brought into being it was the intention that the only men passed into it should be those whose services for the time were considered of more value in civil occupation and who are fit to start work on leaving the Colours. Class P, which was formed later, differed from Class W in that it was intended for men who, owing to wounds or sickness caused by the Service, had become of a low medical category. Class W men are not given any Army pay or allowance and are treated as civilians, except that, if they fall ill in consequence of previous military disability, they are restored to their military status; they are taken into military hospitals, restored to Army pay, and their separation allowance is restored to their families. Difficulties have arisen in connection with transfers to Army Reserve W, due, first of all, to the fact that employers pay wages in arrear, so that for one or two weeks a Class W man may be without pay altogether. Secondly, the erroneous transfer of men to Class W who, owing to military disability, should have been transferred to Class P. In the ordinary course the men would not have been transferred to Class W unless work was awaiting them, but in some cases men who were in categories B 2 and C 2, and who refused to enrol as Army Reserve munition workers, or register for employment, were transferred to Class W. To avoid future hardship, and to put right cases of erroneous transference to Class W instead of Class P, it is proposed to send a card to all the men in Class W, finding out really what is their condition. While that is being done, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions is being good enough to undertake that the Statutory Committee shall be authorised to make temporary advances to men who may need them, so as to relieve pressing necessity. With regard to the question of compensation which ought to be paid to men who are found really properly qualified for Class P, and who have been wrongly

  2285
  transferred to Class W, I think that we ought to treat those men as if they had been transferred to Class P from the date on which they were transferred to Class W. In other words, it would be treating them as they ought to have been treated. Both Lord Derby and I greatly regret that we should have spoken under a misapprehension of what has actually occurred, but I hope that the steps we propose to take will set the matter right, and that no mistakes will occur in the future.
  Sir C. NICHOLSON: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether arrears due to men who have been wrongly transferred from Class W and put into Class P and advanced by the Statutory Committee, the money will be recoverable from the paymaster?
  Mr. FORSTER: Yes, advances made by the local committee will form part of the pension and therefore will be recoverable by the local committees from the areas of pension. My hon. Friend complained of several cases where it has taken an inordinate time to settle some small amount due to a wife or a dependant. I greatly regret that these cases of great delay should occur, but I would ask the House to remember that in view of the many millions of cases with which the paymasters have to deal, the widely scattered territory in which our forces have to operate, and the often changing theatres of war in which a man may find himself engaged, it is not always easy to get cases in which there are complications settled as promptly as one would wish. I do not deny that delay occurs. I admit it, and I only wish, with my hon. Friend, that I could find a remedy for all these cases. I cannot do that, but I can assure him that the paymasters and all in the War Office are doing their best to see that no undue delay occurs. My hon. Friend for North-West Durham urged the desirability of entrusting local committees with a sum of money which they could administer more or less at their discretion to meet delays and hard cases. I think that is done already by the local committees and the Statutory Committee. That really is one of the prime duties for which the Statutory Committee was created.
  Mr. A. WILLIAMS: My point was that the Statutory Committee was very much tied down as to what it could and could
  2286
  not do, and that the local body ought to have the power to do what is necessary within limits.
  Mr. FORSTER: I quite agree, and I hope my right hon. Friend will take note of it. I come to the point as to the desirability of letting the local committees rather than the pensions officer assess the amount of pre-enlistment dependence. I am bound to say from our experience that we cannot do without a more or less judicial officer, the pensions officer. It is a very difficult thing, the assessment of dependence. I am only thankful I have not got to do it myself, and I do not in the least envy those who do it. But I really am satisfied that we want some element in the Court that is to assess these cases of possibly hard-heartedness. The pensions committee possibly provide something in the other direction. I think, on the whole, that the work has been well done, and I am afraid that I cannot join with my hon. Friends in advocating the transfer of this duty from the pensions officer to the local committees. I know and I regret the delay that has occurred, especially recently, in the assessment of these allowances. The pensions officers have been, as my hon. Friend said, charged with a very heavy duty in reassessing old age pension claims. I hope that work is now pretty well finished and that these cases will be dealt with more expeditiously in the future. I may say that when I noticed this delay was occurring I have been in consultation with my hon. Friend the Junior Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Baldwin), who represents the Secretary to the Treasury, upon the question.
  My hon. Friends have also raised the question of when a wife goes into a rate-aided institution, and they urged that the separation allowance should not be stopped. This question has been urged upon me on many occasions, and if I were not occupying my present position, it is quite likely that I should have been one of the first to stand up and support my hon. Friends. But I am the guardian of the taxpayers' money, and I cannot see any case whatever made out for assisting rates out of the taxes in these particular cases. I would remind my hon. Friends that when the wife goes into a rate-aided institution, and leaves her children at home, the children's separation allowances are put up to the motherless rate.
  Sir C. NICHOLSON: Five shillings!
  Mr. FORSTER: I think it is 7s. under the new Warrant. The motherless rate, of course, makes allowance for the securing of a guardian during the mother's temporary absence. I know that there is a great deal of feeling in it. I know that there is—I have had it myself—a great deal of sympathy for the woman whose home is in danger when she has to go into one of these institutions. Here, again, I would remind my hon. Friends that the Statutory Committee was created to come, and docs come, to her assistance. They are authorised to make a grant in respect of the rent, and I think they make some allowance even beyond that. At any rate, there is the body that takes care of the home while the woman is in the institution. My hon. Friend referred to the question of separated wives, and invited us to urge upon the War Office that they should be more generous in their treatment of women in that unhappy position. My hon. Friend knows quite well that our practice has been that the separation allowance is issuable where there has been pre-war dependence. Where the soldier was not carrying out the obligation put upon him by the Court, the separated wife lost nothing by his enlistment.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: She lost all prospect of his improving upon his previous practice.
  Mr. FORSTER: I do not agree with that at all. Enlistment in the Army is a great instrument of reconciliation. My hon. Friend would be astonished to know how many reconciliations have occurred since these errant husbands have become soldiers.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: That does not give her money to live upon.
  Mr. FORSTER: There was no money. She was getting no money from the man previous to enlistment. I do not see why the State should do more for the wife than the husband did before. That is a point I have before had to urge upon my hon. Friends. I am afraid from that point of view I cannot object to my hon. Friend's suggestion—and there was a great deal in his suggestion—that in regard to points of interpretation of what is "on" and "off" duty, and in regard to other comparatively small but undoubtedly important points of that kind, to save correspondence, and possibly to save the time of the House, friendly conferences might be held
  2288
  between those who represent the Departments and hon. Members interested in these matters. There is a great deal to be said in favour of that. If I can further it, I think it would be an excellent thing to do. I would remind him that some of these cases, such as that of on and off duty, will be dealt with under the terms of the new Warrant that has just been published, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Barnes) will find himself with a freer hand in dealing with these matters than I, who have had to deal with them up to the early part of this month.
  The hon. Member (Mr. Anderson) raised a number of points, some of which I can answer and some of which I will bring to the notice of the Under-Secretary. He raised in particular the question of waste at Salisbury Plain. I think, generally speaking, a great deal has been done to-prevent waste, but I have become aware recently that it is alleged that there is waste on a very largely preventable scale at Salisbury Plain. I think it may be due to the fact that the troops at Salisbury Plain are Dominion troops, drawing a higher scale of pay than our own men, and, as far as I can understand, well provided with change of food, which enables them to dispense with a part of their rations. If that is so, I think it is a pity that they do not make arrangements to draw less rations than the full scale which is laid down. However, we are in communication with, the Commander on the subject, and I hope that some steps maybe taken to prevent it.
  Mr. KING: I wish to call the attention of the hon. Gentleman to the Motion which I have on the Paper. It is to the following effect: "That the composition and achievements of the higher Military Command are unsatisfactory; that more openings should be afforded to the genius and energy of Colonial and Territorial officers and to younger men who have shown military gifts in the present War." I have repeatedly called attention during the last eighteen months to this question in various forms, and at least twice I have been listened to by Members of the War Office, and several other Members have called attention to the same matter. I hope that if it is raised by myself or other Members on Votes A and 1, we may have some attention given to it and some answer. I say that not only because it is my private opinion that this is an important matter, but because the question has during the last two or three weeks

  2289
  excited a great deal of public attention. One leading newspaper is recurring to it almost daily, and it has had the opinions of various Members of the House and eminent persons expressed in its columns. Then, also, there is the fact that a well-known weekly paper has been suppressed for several weeks—I believe it is arranging to appear again—for an attack upon Sir William Robertson, Chief of the Staff. I saw that attack, and I am quite sure nothing worse was said than has been said in other papers, and publicly by other people. I think the reluctance of the War Office to face the question whether there might not be an improvement in the higher military command is very unfortunate. It does their courage no credit at all. I beg to give notice that I shall refer to this matter on a subsequent occasion.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES, 1917–18.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CRAIO in the Chair.]

  NUMBER OF LAND FORCES.—VOTE A.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 5,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918."
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Four minutes before Eleven of the clock till Monday next, 5th March, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February.

  PETITIONS PRESENTED DURING THE WEEK.
  The following Petitions were presented during the week, and ordered to lie upon the Table:—
  MONDAY.
  Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation;—From Aberdeen, and Falkirk.

  TUESDAY.
  Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill,— Petition of Percy Bono, Solicitor, of 24 Great Marlborough Street, London, for alteration.
  Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation;—From Cults, and Kirkintilloch.

  WEDNESDAY.
  Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation;—From Aberdeen, Advie, Dyce, High Cross and St. Aidans, Leslie and Bremnay, Mid-Calder, and Paxton.
  THURSDAY.
  Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation;—From Echt, Johnshaven, Kirkmaiden, and Pollockshaws.
WAR.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  ARRESTS IN IRELAND.
  ARRESTS IN IRELAND.
FOOD SUPPLIES.
  POTATOES.
  POTATOES.
  GRAIN (MINIMUM PEICE).
  GRAIN (MINIMUM PEICE).
  PLOUGHMEN.
  PLOUGHMEN.
  CEREALS (ACREAGE).
  CEREALS (ACREAGE).
  NEWLYN DOWNS (CULTIVATION).
  NEWLYN DOWNS (CULTIVATION).
  WRAPPERS (WEIGHT).
  WRAPPERS (WEIGHT).
  RESERVE OF OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
  RESERVE OF OFFICERS (PROMOTION).
MILITARY SERVICE.
  HOSPITAL EMPLOYES.
  HOSPITAL EMPLOYES.
  REFUSAL TO OBEY ORDERS.
  REFUSAL TO OBEY ORDERS.
  ENLISTED MEN NOT CALLED UP.
  ENLISTED MEN NOT CALLED UP.
  "UNAVAILABLE" SOLDIERS.
  "UNAVAILABLE" SOLDIERS.
  CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS (TEMPORARY EXEMPTION).
  CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS (TEMPORARY EXEMPTION).
  ABSOLUTE EXEMPTION.
  ABSOLUTE EXEMPTION.
  ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (COMMISSIONS).
  ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY (COMMISSIONS).
  RESERVE BATTALIONS (HEADQUARTERS).
  RESERVE BATTALIONS (HEADQUARTERS).
  SPECIAL RESERVE BRIGADES (COMMAND).
  SPECIAL RESERVE BRIGADES (COMMAND).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  MECHANICAL TRANSPORT DRIVERS (PAY).
  MECHANICAL TRANSPORT DRIVERS (PAY).
  CURRAGH CAMP (ROAD MAINTENANCE).
  CURRAGH CAMP (ROAD MAINTENANCE).
  IRISH SOLDIERS (LEAVE).
  IRISH SOLDIERS (LEAVE).
MUNITIONS.
  DUMFRIES WORKERS' CERTIFICATES.
  DUMFRIES WORKERS' CERTIFICATES.
  SPIRITS IN PROHIBITED AREA.
  SPIRITS IN PROHIBITED AREA.
  SCHOOL TEACHERS (WAR BONUS).
  SCHOOL TEACHERS (WAR BONUS).
  COUNTESS MARCKIEWICZ.
  COUNTESS MARCKIEWICZ.
  CAMEROONS (ADMINISTRATION).
  CAMEROONS (ADMINISTRATION).
  SOUTH AFRICAN COMMISSION (REPORT).
  SOUTH AFRICAN COMMISSION (REPORT).
  BEER PRODUCTION.
  BEER PRODUCTION.
  BRITISH FIRMS (ENEMY DEBTORS).
  BRITISH FIRMS (ENEMY DEBTORS).
  HOME-GROWN TIMBER (PRICES).
  HOME-GROWN TIMBER (PRICES).
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (VETERINARY SURGEONS).
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (VETERINARY SURGEONS).
  AGRICULTURAL LAND (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  AGRICULTURAL LAND (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  MAILS LOST (SUBMARINE ATTACKS).
  MAILS LOST (SUBMARINE ATTACKS).
  SHIPBUILDING (STANDARDISATION).
  SHIPBUILDING (STANDARDISATION).
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT (DUBLIN PAINTERS).
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT (DUBLIN PAINTERS).
  NEWSPAPER DISTRIBUTION.
  NEWSPAPER DISTRIBUTION.
  Model Schools (Ireland).
  Model Schools (Ireland).