Sitting of 23 February 1915

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Metropolitan District Railway Bill (by Order),
Read a second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
"To empower the London County Council to construct and work new tramways; to alter and re-construct existing tramways and to make street improvements and other works; and for other purposes." Presented, and read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.
NAVAL AND MARINE PENSIONS ACT, 1865.
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 16th February, 1915, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT, 1890.
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 16th February, 1915, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
IRELAND (AVERAGE PRICES).
Return ordered, "showing to the latest year available for Ireland as a whole: (1) the annual Average Prices for each year from 1881; (2) the annual Average Prices for each period comprised in the period from 1881 of 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and 25 years, and for the period of 5 years from 1909; such Prices to be compiled from the Returns of Prices of crops, live stock, and other Irish agricultural products heretofore published from time to time by the Irish Land Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, or from other information in the possession of those Departments (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 162, of Session 1914)."—[Mr. Newman.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  WAR.

    GRAIN SHIPPED TO ITALY.
    Mr. SHIRLEY BENNasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if the British Consuls in Italy have reported that grain shipped in British vessels to Italy under a guarantee that it is for consumption in Italy has been discharged into German wagons; and (2) if the British Consuls in Italy have reported that the cargoes of ships discharging at Italian ports for the Swiss Government with the Government seal on their papers have been loaded in German wagons?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Edward Grey): Reports have from time to time been received that cargoes for Italy and Switzerland are being discharged into German trucks. But we are assured by the Italian and Swiss authorities that a certain number of German trucks are normally circulating on the Italian and Swiss railways, and represent an equivalent number of Italian and Swiss trucks on the German railways. The use of German trucks does not, therefore, in itself indicate that the goods are intended for Germany.

    BREAD-STUFF (SCARCITY).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture, if his Department is taking such steps as will prevent a scarcity of bread-stuff for our people at the end of the present year; and, if so, can he briefly state to this House what such steps are?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Harry Verney): The supply of sufficient bread-stuff for the population of the country depends largely on influences beyond the control of my Department. But the Board have issued advice on the subject to a great number of farmers, and as far as can be ascertained energetic efforts are being made, in spite of shortage of labour and unfavourable weather conditions, to increase the acreage under cereals this year.

  HASLAR BRIDGE, GOSPORT (SOLDIERS AND SAILORS).
  Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that since the outbreak of War all soldiers are exempt from toll in crossing Haslar Bridge, Gosport, whereas sailors are not exempt; and, seeing that many sailors are compelled to cross this bridge constantly to get to Haslar Creek, he will endeavour to obtain a similar concession for them?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): Under the Haslar Bridge Act sailors on duty equally with soldiers on duty are exempt from the payment of tolls. The Admiralty also pay a certain sum to exempt the garrison of Fort Blockhouse when off duty. I was not aware that soldiers when off duty had since the War enjoyed the privilege referred to by the hon. Member.

  DARTMOUTH COLLEGE (CADETS).
  Mr. BARNSTONasked if cadets at Dartmouth College and the midshipmen in the training cruisers were distributed among the ships of the Fleet for active service at the outbreak of the War; if some of these lads have lost their lives; if under the regulations their parents are charged £50 a year; and will he see that in the future, while these lads are risking their lives for their country, the parents are not compelled to pay the Admiralty for the services of their sons?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: The answer to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, I may remind the hon. Gentleman that, as I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Cambridge on the 15th instant, in the case of the private allowance payable on behalf of midshipmen, the Board of Admiralty is prepared to give favourable consideration to applications for whole or partial relief where real necessity exists; and, further, that in the case of midshipmen killed on active service, any sums deopsited in advance in respect of a period subsequent to the date of death are returned to the guardians upon the closing of the private allowance accounts of the officers concerned.

  SUGAR (PRICES).
  Mr. GEORGE ROBERTSasked the President of the Board of Trade what powers are possessed to secure that sugar shall be sold at a price fixed by the Royal Commission; whether he is aware that in Stornoway practically all the grocers are selling sugar at 4½d. per pound, although the price fixed by the Commission is 3½d.; whether he is aware that by charging this price the retailers are making about 50 per cent. profit; and whether action will be taken to put a stop to this imposition on the purchasing public?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): The President of the Board of Trade has asked me to reply to this question. The Royal Commission can only recommend the prices which they consider may reasonably be charged for sugar. I am informed that the price of granulated sugar in Stornoway is 4d. per pound. In estimating whether such a price is reasonable in relation to the general price through the country of 3½d. per pound, regard must be had to the cost of carriage to Stornoway.

  UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (LONDON).
  Mr. ROWLANDSasked when the Report of the Departmental Committee on University Education in London may be expected; and whether any further action is contemplated by the Government in regard to the acquisition of the site on the Bedford estate for the headquarters of the university?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. J. A. Pease): Largely in consequence of the War, the proceedings of the Departmental Committee are in abeyance, and for the same reason it is impossible for me to make any statement in regard to the acquisition of a site.

  PRODUCTION OF FINE DRUGS (USE OF ALCOHOL).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Government proposes to take special steps to facilitate the use of alcohol for commercial purposes in order to create favourable conditions for competition with Germany in the production of fine drugs?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Acland): So far as can at present be seen, there is no reason to suppose that the facilities available under the existing law are inadequate for this purpose.

  ROYAL INDIAN MARINE (MEDAL ROLLS AND PRIZE MONEY).
  Colonel YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the medal rolls for the officers and men of the Royal Indian Marine for services performed by them during the operations for the prevention of gun-running in the Persian Gulf during the years 1909–14 have yet been compiled, as is being done in the case of the Royal Navy; and what steps are being taken regarding the distribution of prize money to the officers and men of the Royal Indian Marine entitled to it for the same services?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Charles Roberts): The Admiralty has been asked whether the Lords Commissioners are prepared to grant the naval medal to officers and men of the Royal Indian Marine, and if a reply in the affirmative is received the necessary instructions will be given for the preparation of medal rolls. The Secretary of State is not aware of any officer or man of the Royal Indian Marine being entitled to prize money, but will consult the Government of India on this point.

  NEW COURTS (EMERGENCY POWERS) ACT.
  Mr. ANDERSONasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the legal case in which a jury at Dorchester, under the New Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, awarded £15 damages for trespass and wrongful eviction to William West, a farm labourer, now serving with the Colours; whether he is aware that much uncertainty exists among farmers and the wives of men who have enlisted as to the legal position in regard to ejectment; and whether, in view of the seriousness and complexity of the problem, the scarcity of rural cottages, the natural desire of the farmers to obtain and house labourers in place of those who have left, and the consequent danger of eviction of the wives and children of soldiers, he will grant time for discussion of the matter?
  Sir H. VERNEY: The Government will welcome suggestions for preventing hardship arising in cases of the kind quoted by the hon. Member. Perhaps it will be convenient if, in the first instance, the question were debated on the Motion for the Adjournment.

  ARMY ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.
  Mr. WATTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to make a monetary reward to employés of the Army Ordnance Department, who through the outbreak of hostilities last summer were obliged to forfeit their annual allowance of leave?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Harold Baker): I am afraid that the hon. Member's suggestion cannot be accepted. It is an established principle that all leave should be regarded as subject to the exigencies of the public service.
  Mr. WATT: Is it not the case that these civilian subordinates were refused all promotion in the way of commissions, and is it not hitting them twice by also refusing them extra remuneration for lost leave?
  Mr. BAKER: I will consider it but there can be no question as to leave

  WAR OFFICE CONTRACTS
  Mr. WATTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is any place in Scotland where possible offerers for the clothing contracts for the Army can see samples of what is required for his Department, or whether these officers have to travel to Woolwich to see what class of goods is wanted; and will he see that in future some facilities are given for a display of goods in several parts of Scotland?
  Mr. BAKER: Samples and specifications of Service dress clothing may be seen at the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce. If my hon. Friend would suggest other places in which they might be usefully exhibited I shall be glad to consider the question.
  Mr. GEORGE ROBERTSasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has received complaints to the effect that

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  contracts for military band instruments have been placed by the War Office with firms who do not conform to the requirements of the Fair-Wages Clause, whereby trade unionists are precluded from working on such contracts; and, if so, can he state if inquiries have been made into such complaints, together with the result thereof?
  Mr. BAKER: No complaints of this character have been received, but if the hon. Member will be so good as to furnish me with further particulars of the alleged infringements of the Fair-Wages Clause, I shall be glad to have the matter investigated.
  Mr. WATTasked the value of all the clothing for his Department which has been ordered by or in other ways has passed through the hands of Messrs. Glanfield and Sons, and on which they have received a commission?
  Mr. BAKER: Clothing to the value of approximately £3,000,000 has been ordered from Messrs. Glanfield, but none of it on a commission basis.

  BILLETING (RATE FOR LICENSED PREMISES).
  Mr. R. GWYNNEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can see his way to increase the allowance of 2s. 3d. a day per man at present given to occupiers of licensed premises in respect of billeting, in view of the increased cost of the necessaries of life and of rates and taxes?
  Mr. BAKER: It is not considered that any increase of this rate would be justified at present.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the cost of living has increased, and that what was considered a proper amount before may now turn out to be inadequate?
  Mr. BAKER: I do not think the amount is inadequate at this moment.

  ROYAL AIRCRAFT FACTORY.
  Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that the carpentry work in
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  connection with the manufacture of aircraft at the Royal Aircraft Factory at South Farnborough is done by piecework; and, if so, whether he has sanctioned this system of doing the delicate and intricate work required in the manufacture of these machines?
  Mr. BAKER: Some work in the carpenter's shop at the Royal Aircraft Factory is done by piecework, and I am informed its quality is excellent.

  KNITTING MACHINE NEEDLES (DUTCH EXPORTS).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether His Majesty's Government has official intimation to the effect that the Dutch Government has forbidden the export of knitting and machine needles?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): The export of knitting machine needles from the Netherlands was prohibited by a Decree of the 13th February, but I understand that exemptions from the prohibition may be granted in special cases.

  IRISH CHANNEL TUNNEL.
  Mr. STEWARTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of recent submarine operations in the Irish Sea and the possibility of attempts at blockade in the future, the Government will consider the advisability of taking soundings, and, if satisfactory, drawing up estimates of the cost of a tunnel between Ireland and Great Britain, so as to ensure constant means of communication between both the interior of Ireland and the Atlantic ports of the West Coast?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): I fear the suggestion of the hon. Member is hardly practicable in the present circumstances.

  DEFENCE OF THE REALM ACT (WAR OFFICE CONTRACTS).
  Sir HENRY CRAIKasked the Prime Minister if he is prepared, in connection with any amendment of the Defence of the Realm Act, to consider the introduction of provisions to bring within the scope of

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  that Act any contractor supplying inferior articles of food or equipment to His Majesty's Forces, and any person receiving any sum by way of commission in connection with any such contract or in connection with any work done by him as inspector of food or other articles supplied or as veterinary inspector?
  Mr. BAKER: The hon. Member's proposal would appear to present considerable difficulties from the draftsman's point of view, as it would depend on the precise definition to be applied to the term inferior, but I should be glad to consider any suggestions he may have to make in this connection. If fraud were established the ordinary law should be sufficient to deal with it. The case of receiving a commission corruptly is covered by the Prevention of Corruption Act, 1906.
  Sir H. CRAIK: Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the prospect of drastic and immediate action, freed from all legal complication, would prove a powerful deterrent in such matters?
  Mr. BAKER: That would depend entirely upon how successful was the draftsmanship.
  Mr. W. THORNE: In the event of any of these contractors supplying food-stuffs to the Government being convicted, will they strike them of the contractors' list?
  Mr. BAKER: Certainly.
  Mr. W. THORNE: Then why not Lyons at once?
  Lord C. BERESFORD: May I ask whether it is not a fact that no contractor suffered court-martial or any penalty for supplying inferior lethal weapons during the Soudan war; whether those weapons were not supposed to be made principally of lead; whether they did not twist and bend; and whether we did not lose an enormous lot of lives in consequence?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The Soudan war was a long time ago, and the Financial Secretary was not then in office.

  Finance Act, 1910 (Valuation of Business Premises).
  Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in estimating the value of business premises under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the
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  valuer is entitled to take into consideration any part of the value of the goodwill of a business carried on in the premises, or whether the value should be based on the assumption that the buildings are unoccupied and exclusive from any influence the tenant may bring or may have brought to bear on the premises?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): Any enhancement of the market value of land due to the goodwill which is personal to the trader is included in total value, but Section 25 (4) (d) of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, provides for its elimination in arriving at assessable site value.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that these instructions are made clear to the valuers?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think they are clear to the valuers.

  Slaughter of Heifers (Scotland).
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been directed to the number of cows and heifers being slaughtered in Scotland for beef instead of being kept for breeding and milking; and whether he will take steps to secure that neither the supply of milk nor of young store cattle is seriously diminished by this practice?
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): My attention has been called to this matter by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, who dc not consider that the practice is at present so general as to warrant the exercise by them of the powers conferred on them by the Slaughter of Animals Act, 1914, but they have, with my approval, published notices in the newspapers and at the markets where the practice mainly prevails appealing to all concerned to put a stop to it and warning them that if it continues the Board may be compelled to put into force the powers conferred on them by the Act.
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the fact that for the next two months an average of 1,000 calves will be sold in Scotland; whether he is aware that at present a large proportion of calves only a few days old are being slaughtered for food; and whether anything will be done to conserve such animals for future use?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Inquiry has been made by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, but they have no reason to believe that any slaughter of calves is taking place beyond that which usually occurs at this season of male calves of the Ayrshire breed which it is not profitable to keep for the production of beef. The Board are satisfied that no undue slaughtering is taking place of female Ayrshire calves or of calves of other breeds suitable for keeping for feeding purposes. It is not proposed, therefore, to take any special action in the matter.
  Mr. HOGGE: Is that my right hon. Friend's view?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Certainly. If my hon. Friend has evidence of any cases, I shall be very glad to consider them.

  Witnesses in Prison Clothes.
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Lord Advocate whether his attention had been called to the appearance in Edinburgh police court of a witness in prison clothes; whether this is a new practice or the revival of an old one; and whether he will take steps to secure that all such witnesses may appear in their ordinary clothes?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I have received a report on the case referred to by my hon. Friend. The course, adopted was not based upon any new practice, but was in accordance with a long established instruction. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative. The matter has already been under consideration, and steps are being taken to alter the instruction.

  Rates of Wages (Trade Boards).
  Mr. ANDERSONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any steps have yet been taken to bring before the various trade boards (which have fixed legal minima rates of wages at from 2¾d. to 6d. per hour at a time when the cost of living was at least 20 per cent. lower than at present) the question of revising these rates, affecting virtually 250,000 wage-earners in view of the great rise of prices; and whether he will cause the matter to be brought promptly before each of the trade boards, with a view to any proper action being taken?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): The Tailoring Trade Board (Great Britain) recently gave notice that they proposed to vary the
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  minimum time-rate for women employed in ready-made and wholesale bespoke tailoring from 3¼d. to 3½d. an hour. The Trade Boards, which consist of representatives of employers and representatives of workers in equal proportions together with a small number of appointed members, are empowered in accordance with the procedure prescribed in the Act to vary minimum rates of wages without any direction from the Board of Trader if they think it expedient to do so. It appears to me to be for the workers' representatives on the Trade Board to raise the question of an increase if they consider that the circumstances warrant it.

  School Accommodation.
  Mr. JAMES HOPEasked the President of the Board of Education if it is the practice of the Board, when they have received appeals from the managers of an existing school and also from a considerable number of ratepayers against the building of a new school, or the enlargement of an existing one amounting to the provision of a new school, to hold an inquiry if the appellants wish it?
  Mr. PEASE: Every case must be decided on its merits, but a public inquiry is always held when there is a primâ facie ground for thinking that it would serve a useful purpose and would justify the expenditure involved.

  Committee of Council on Education (Scotland).
  Sir W. BULLasked if a similar provision has been applied, or will be applied, to England and Wales as has been provided for the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland by Cd. 7783?
  Mr. PEASE: In their Regulations for Special Grants [Cd. 7460; Article 4 (b) (iii.)] the Board of Education have a general power analogous to the provision mentioned in the question. In cases where the Board reduce or withhold Annual Grant in consequence of an infraction of the provisions of the Code, they so calculate the Special Grant that it shall not relieve the authority from the loss of Annual Grant.

  Statutes (Volume).
  Sir W. BULLasked why so long a time has been allowed to elapse between the close of the first Session of 1914 and the issue of the bound volume of Statutes; and when is its publication expected?
  Mr. ACLAND: The volume contains, not only the Acts, but certain tables and other information which are compiled by officials of the House of Lords, and the delay is attributable to the heavy depletion of the staff at the House of Lords owing to the War. It is anticipated that the volume will be published about the 27th instant.

  Local Insurance Committees (Accounts for Drugs).
  Mr. O'GRADYasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether the Commissioners have received an appeal from M. E. Murray, M.P.S., of Leeds, stating that long outstanding accounts for the supply of drugs to the local insurance committee have not been paid; and, if so, whether, in view of the hardship inflicted on the small tradesmen by these non-payments, steps will be at once taken to meet this claim and all such claims in future?.
  The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY Of LANCASTER (Mr. Montagu): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for South Islington, of which I am sending him a copy.

  Lerwick Post Office (Innocence of Staff Proved).
  Mr. CATHCART WASONasked the Postmaster-General if he is now in a position to state what measures he is prepared to take with reference to the outrage on his officers at Lerwick last November, when they were arrested and marched through the town to the common gaol, where there was no reasonable accommodation for the number?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hobhouse): I am glad to be able to say that the Admiralty have now informed me that the investigation which they have conducted into the charges against the Postmaster and the Post Office staff at Lerwick has proved the complete innocence of all officials. The Admiralty express their regret that unfounded suspicion should have been cast upon them, and propose to make a pecuniary grant as compensation.

  Welsh Church Act.
  Mr. KINGasked the Prime Minister whether he has received requests or representations urging that the Welsh Church
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  question, as fixed by the legislation of last Session, should be revised by further legislation this Session; and whether the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church is to be considered a non-controversial subject on which legislation is not precluded by Ministerial pledges?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. In regard to the second part, points have been raised and submitted to us which are now under consideration, and in regard to which I believe that there seems to be some prospect of possible agreement.
  Mr. KING: Can the Prime Minister say when he will be able to give us a statement as to the result of these pending negotiations?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir, I cannot do that.
  Mr. LLEWELYN WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Members of the Welsh party?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Everybody will be consulted.
  Mr. KING: Will the Radical Members below the Gangway who are not Welsh Members be consulted?

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES (EMERGENCY POWERS).
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir John Simon): I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Universities and College Estates Acts, and to extend powers of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge and the Colleges therein to make Statutes for purposes connected with the present War."
  Every part of the community has made a ready and a full response to the call of the country for men to join the armed forces of the Crown, but nowhere has the response been more prompt and spirited than in our ancient universities. Anyone who visits them at this moment cannot fail to be struck by the change that has come over the scenes. At Oxford, for example, the examination schools have been turned into a military hospital, colleges are housing soldiers instead of students, the university parks have become a training ground, and practically the only undergraduates whom you can see in academical costume are those who are physically disqualified for military service. About two-thirds of the students who would ordinarily be in residence at Oxford have joined the Army, and corresponding figures, as I learn from material given me by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Rawlinson), are available for Cambridge. This splendid contribution has not been possible without sacrifice and anxiety—alike on the part of those who have volunteered and on the part of the colleges to which they belong. At Oxford, to take an example, there are some 2,000 who would be ordinarily in residence if we were at peace, but who in this time of emergency have joined the King's Forces; and of those 2,000 no less than 500 are scholars or exhibitioners—that is to say, they are young men in many cases of small means whose opportunity for going to the university at all has arisen from the prizes which they have won, and unless emergency provisions are now made such as we propose the colleges to which they belong, colleges which have elected them as scholars, cannot readily adjust their scholarships so as to provide financial aid for the present holders when they return from the War.
  That is one of the objects which we have in promoting this Bill. Take the second
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  case. Many of the younger tutors and lecturers in the universities have suspended their teaching in order to enter the Army for the time being. But they hold their fellowships on the fixed and necessary condition that they reside and teach; consequently, there is the danger of losing their fellowships altogether owing to the response which they have made to the call of the country, and, unless the colleges can promptly obtain power to suspend those conditions for the time being, these fellowships will lapse. I will take the third case. The Bill also makes emergency provisions for university and college finance. To the greater part of the institutions in both Oxford and Cambridge it means a sudden and most serious loss of revenue, and power is therefore asked to make good temporary deficiencies in income by borrowing—to make good those temporary deficiencies by enabling corporate revenue—revenue from investments and the like to subsidise funds which depend upon fees so far as is necessary, and to suspend, with the leave of the Board of Agriculture, the sinking fund repayments in respect of capital expenditure which was authorised in time of peace.
  The provisions of the Bill are purely permissive, and they will only be taken advantage of so far as in individual cases the university authorities or college authorities find necessary. Moreover, the operation of the Bill is limited to the period of emergency. That period, however, will not terminate on the day when peace is declared, for it must take some time for university and college finances to recover from the strain which the situation is putting upon them. We propose in the Bill to define the emergency period as ending at the close of the calendar year in which the War terminates, or, if the War terminates in the latter part of the year, then to allow the emergency period to continue until the end of the next following calendar year. That we think will give the authorities sufficient time to adjust their position after the War has come to an end. There is only one other thing I want to say. The House will, of course, understand that the universities are not asking for any assistance from the Treasury or the taxpayer. They are merely asking for power to enlarge and modify their existing regulations so as to enable them to overcome the difficulties with which they are faced. I am confident that the House will very readily give to them the powers which they need in order that

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  they may meet as best they can a situation which is due—and due entirely—to the patriotism of their members.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Attorney-General, the Prime Minister, Mr. Pease, and the Solicitor-General. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 32.]

GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND RUSSIA.

  FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS.
  Sir THOMAS WHITTAKER: I rise to move, "That this House, having heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on 15th February, approves generally of the arrangements made by him with the Finance Ministers of France and Russia."
  This Motion embodies what is perhaps one of the most, if not the most, far-reaching financial proposal ever submitted to this House. We and our Allies on the Continent are engaged in a life and death struggle, and each of the allies must do all that it can. It is absolutely vital that we should win in this fight, and it is probably more important to the United Kingdom than it is even either to France or to Russia. We have perhaps less to gain—but we are not out for gain. This is not a war of aggression or of conquest. But I think we have more to lose. Germany is more jealous of us, hates us most—would rather defeat us than any nation on earth. She regards us as the obstacle in her path, the barrier to her world-wide domination—a domination of scientific and philosophic tyranny and selfishness. I think we may esteem it an honour and treat it as a matter of pride that once again in our history we are called upon to champion the rights of smaller nations, to defend their freedom and independence, to uphold public justice and international law, to curb the ambition and destroy the power of military despotism in Europe. It is a mighty task. It is the biggest we have ever undertaken, and, having gone into it, we have more at stake than anyone. Defeat would mean the end of the British Empire as we know it and all that that means to us—in our freedom, our wealth, and our commerce, to the moral and social ideals we cherish, and to
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  the cause of freedom and independence, specially amongst the small nationalities throughout the world. We must either win or go under. But if we went under wrong would triumph and brutality would be enthroned. Up till now the burden of the actual War has fallen more heavily on our Allies than on us. Belgium and Servia have suffered terribly. France is fighting almost entirely on her own territory: some of her richest and fairest lands and towns have been devastated. She is suffering all the horrors of invasion and war on her own soil. Russia is facing three-foes on her frontier—Germany, Austria, and Turkey. In Europe alone she is fighting on a frontier twice as long as the frontier on which we and France are fighting Germany in the Western sphere, and she is fighting splendidly, surprising the world. By holding up the great forces she is holding there she is largely saving France and ourselves from terrible times. As for ourselves, the world has not yet realised what we have done and what we are doing. We, none of us, should have thought it possible a year ago that we could have done what we have done. I sometimes think we have been a little too modest. Somewhere else in other parts of the world there has been a disposition to think we have not done our share, because they do not know what we are doing. All the Allies are straining every nerve. They are full of hope, full of confidence, grim, calm, and determined, and they are splendidly loyal to each other. We have one great advantage. Thanks to our splendid fleet, there is no invader on our soil. We are free from the horrors and losses which that involves. When we talk about the cost of the War to each country we must not omit to consider, that although it may be that on our forces we shall during this year spend more than the other countries, yet we shall not suffer the losses which they suffer through having war on their own soil.
  The great needs are men and money. Without money the men cannot be adequately equipped, armed and fed. Our Allies have provided and can provide far more men than we can put into-the field on the Continent, although we are doing and shall do wonders in that respect. We can provide more money than any of the others, and we must do it. This War must be won on land as well as on sea. It may be, as the First Lord of the Admiralty told us the other day, that the Navy could and would, if needs be, alone ultimately decide the issue, but, if France and

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  Russia were defeated on land, it would be a long and difficult job.
  The greater and the more effective the forces we can bring to bear on Germany on land, the sooner will be the end. To hasten that end we must render to those of our Allies who need it such financial help as will enable them to put into the field and keep there the largest and most efficiently armed and equipped armies that are possible. From a purely financial point of view it would be cheaper for us to help Russia to raise and equip 3,000,000, 4,000,000, or 5,000,000 more men, than for us to provide and equip anything like that extra number ourselves. If Russia does not do it, we may have to. We are in a joint undertaking, and each nation must do its utmost. We must regard all the resources of the Allies—men, arms, equipment, food, money, and credit—as a whole, and use them when, where, and how they can be disposed of to the greatest advantage. If the War drags out much longer than it otherwise would because the Allies have not sufficient strength in the field to decisively defeat the enemy, it will be an exceedingly costly business; costly in life, costly in money, costly in the continued devastation of the country, costly in the continued dislocation and loss of business. If that failure to end the War early is due to lack of money to provide arms, ammunition, and food, and if that money could be found, it would be a frightful waste and great financial folly not to find it. The longer the War lasts the more uncertain it appears, and the more exhausted the nations become the more difficult and costly it will be to raise money. Every consideration of humanity, of financial interest—aye, and of our duty to our brave men in the field!—requires that no effort should be spared to bring all the forces and all the resources of the Allies to bear as speedily and as effectively as possible.
  Is the arrangement which the Government has made, subject to the approval of Parliament, for doing that the best that could be devised as far as using the finance and credit of the Allies is concerned? Is it the best way of using the means available? Will it secure that each of the Allies will do its share according to its power and its means? It is an enormous responsibility. We used to talk about the Great War of 100 years and more ago, and what Pitt accomplished in the early years of the last century, but he never had to
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  grapple with anything like this. The number of men, the cost, and everything is on a far greater scale than that.
  With regard to this scheme our informa-is limited. It must be so. We cannot have all the details given to us without disclosing what should not be disclosed. In this Motion our approval is to be general, and we generally approve. It is not a detailed and not a specific approval, but it means that we must and we do leave much to the Government. With respect to the personnel of the matter, first, we have the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whatever some people may have thought of him before—and some of us have had a good deal to say at times upon that and may have to say it again—we shall all agree that throughout this great struggle he has manifested a width of out look and of courage which have captured the admiration of the country. He has consulted the leading authorities in the City and taken advice wherever it was to be had, and the result has been a success which will do much to justify confidence in the future. I imagine that these arrangements will be made and carried through, not only in consultation with the Cabinet, but especially with the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and in their hands I am content to leave the matter. Great Britain, France, and Russia are each to supply their own needs in their own markets so far as they can. Will they do it? Will they play fair? Will they, as we say in the North, be "jannock." We must be vigilant, but we must trust them, and we have no reason to doubt them, in a great struggle like this there must be mutual confidence and complete co-operation if we are to succeed. I presume that any help that they need will be a debt which ultimately they will have to pay. I am speaking of the two Great Powers. For outside purchases Russia has needed, and will need, help; but if she can sell her crops she will be able to pay a good deal.
  Each country is to raise its own loans, and, as I understand it, to pay its own terms. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking that is far better than a joint loan. They will get more out of each country and know more accurately what each country does provide. This country will have to raise a lot of money. That means that we must conserve our resources, we must stop lending abroad, our Colonies must curtail their demands, and we must stop avoidable expenditure.

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  I would strongly urge that our Local Government Board and our Education Department should impress upon local authorities that this is not a time to go sinking money and incurring expenditure. We must economise in our local government as well as in our national government. Great schemes of development and extension, for housing, and anything else, that can be deferred must be delayed until after this War. We must have national economy. [An HON. MEMBER: "Business as usual."] Business as usual is quite right, but going in for extension and expenditure of that sort at this time is not business. The nation's purse is not bottomless. We are making demands upon it such as have never been made before. It will be a terrible strain, but if I understand the spirit of my countrymen we mean to see it through. The burden is heavy, and will be heavy, but it will be borne to smash militarism and all that follows in its train.
  Mr. ROBINSON: I beg to second the Motion.
  One is quite alive to some of the criticisms which have been offered on the Government scheme. We were told that it is too vague in its character, but I think it is now generally accepted that quite as much information as was wise, in view of the present crisis was given at the time, and I feel sure, when the spirit in which the country at large is accepting many things from the Government without too much question, it is willing also to accept some of the proposals which have been made and to leave matters in the hands of those who know exactly what arrangements have been made without going too closely into the merits. It has been said that Britain has been generous to her Allies, but I do not know that that has by any means been proved, and here again we must leave matters of detail to those who are in command of the ship of State. After all, we have to judge of what we shall do and what we are able to do as much by our financial resources as by any other way, as was the case a century ago when we were in very much the same position. The financial position of Britain then did almost as much as her Navy and her Army to save her from militarism. In judging of these proposals one wonders what our enemies would think were they able to make such suggestions to any great financial country as we are able to do. If they could go into the commercial market and raise money as we are able to do and obtain those supplies which command of
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  the sea and command of finances enable us to do they would indeed be in better spirits than they are at present.
  Several business men have said to me that they have found no precedent during the last seven months to guide them in the conduct of their commercial ventures. That is very true, and we hope it will be many generations before those who follow them will find it necessary to turn up these precedents which we are now making for guidance in future. We hope that never again will the Empire be called upon to make such financial sacrifices as she is now making. The Government is acting and has acted since the War began in the way of looking about to consider what can best be done for the Empire under the very special circumstances in which we find ourselves. Perhaps one of the most important and valuable considerations which these financial proposals put forward is that which deals with the purchase of different material and war supplies by agreement between our Allies in such a way that we shall not be treading upon one anothers heels and all in pursuit of the same goods. That is a most important suggestion which will undoubtedly tend, certainly not to increase unduly the price of commodities which the different parts of the nation will require. In the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer a week ago he spoke of certain arrangements which were being made which might enable Russia to export some of those valuable commodities, especially food-stuffs, which are at present held up in the Black Sea. We begin to wonder, owing to the events of the last few days, whether we shall not be able to force the passage of the Dardanelles and so release not only the ships which are necessary for trading but those vast stores of food-stuffs which the Allies so much require. Such a venture as this shows us how closely interwoven the Admiralty, the War Office and the Treasury are, and how closely they work together.
  The whole Government of the country works together as one department in a way it has never done before. By these arrangements and by a closer financial understanding with Russia I think we shall be building up for the future a trade with that great Empire which will go on in a different way for generations. Her resources are so vast as to be absolutely illimitable. When peace reigns once more in this land another enemy may cross our threshold, neither through the air nor

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  under the water. Unemployment will, we fear, visit us, and want will stalk through the land, and if at that time those foes have to be combated we must prepare now to meet them, and I believe the financial steps which have already been taken and foreshadowed in this agreement are the most potent that we can employ to defeat those foes by securing to ourselves those ample supplies of raw material and foodstuffs without which we perish.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: One observation made by each of the hon. Members who have preceded me has struck me. We are all a little inclined to make the wish father to the thought. I notice the hon. Member who spoke last said that one satisfactory feature, one success of the present situation, was that all the Government Departments were acting as one. That is a consummation devoutly to be wished, but I should not like Ministers to think that the consummation has already been obtained. That much has already been done I do not doubt, but I am quite certain it will well repay them to give further attention and greater care to that particular object. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Resolution travelled over a good deal of ground. If I may say so, I admire nothing more than the skill with which he conveyed, and will not say rebuke, but suggestions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer under the guise of compliments. He congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the success which had attended his new departure in consulting financial authorities upon financial matters. We all join in our congratulations to the Chancellor on the success of this new departure. We hope that though new, it will be continued; we hope that though it be a new precedent, the precedent once made will be continued.
  Let me say in regard to the Resolution, what indeed anybody in this House will not doubt, that I myself am ready to give a cordial support to the Motion which has been moved. It is a Motion which we must discuss with discretion. I hope that nothing that I say or that any other Member says in the course of this Debate will in any way embarrass the Chancellor of the Exchequer or create any feeling of doubt or hesitation among our Allies. It would be very far from the desire of any of us to pursue such a course, and we shall all speak with the responsibility which the circumstances impose and with the knowledge
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  ever present to our minds that we are considering not merely the financial arrangements of this country, but the financial arrangements of three great Allied Powers amongst whom there must be a certain give and take of ideas, and no one of whom can expect to have everything settled exactly as that one would most prefer to see it done.
  The hon. Gentlemen who have already spoken have said that our information is not perfect. It could not be perfect. It is obvious that it is impossible for the Chancellor in such circumstances as I have described to tell the House all that is in his mind, or to answer questions, as to the future, which may have to be discussed again with our Allies, and which, even if decisions are already taken, concern not only us but also those Allies. Not only the decision must be made in common, but the announcement with regard to it must be agreed in common both as to its phraseology and as to the time at which it is to be made. Therefore I say that if at any point of my speech I appear to put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I am quite ready that he should postpone his answer to it to his own good time. I shall try to avoid putting questions to him, though I shall make suggestions. But I am quite ready to wait for a reply until he, in the public interest, with the knowledge he possesses, and in communication with our Allies, feels that the subject may be fully dealt with. Subject to the limitations of the information which is at our disposal, I say that I give a ready support to the Motion which has been moved—a Motion which expresses not a total approbation of every step that has been or may be taken, but a general approval of the principle the Chancellor of the Exchequer has laid down in the scheme of, if I may so call it, international and national finance which he has sketched to the House. The principle is one to which every one in this country will desire to live up, not merely in the letter but in the spirit.
  We are allied to France and Russia in a struggle which is a matter of life and death for us as a nation and as an Empire to at least as great an extent as it is for France or Russia. We are solidaire with them in the struggle which is going on, and we desire that our resources should be used to the utmost in the common struggle, just as we are confident that each of our Allies will use their own resources without hesitation and

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  without calculation to the best advantage for the promotion of the cause which is common to us all. That the military alliance which has been signed should be extended to the realm of finance was a natural corollary to the outbreak of War. It could not be done too soon, and I am glad that the Finance Ministers of our Allies and of our own country have met and in a conference face to face have discussed and have settled so many of the financial difficulties which have arisen. I think the decisions the Conference came to were in the main wise decisions, and in the main decisions such as any British Minister with the traditions of British finance behind him might well have commended.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer very properly dwelt upon the financial resources of the three great Allied Powers. They are enormous. They are enormous almost beyond the capacity of the mind to conceive them. But, however big they be, full use cannot be made of them unless it is an organised use. You cannot leave things to chance. If I may be allowed an expression of opinion, I think the greatest strength of Germany—and it is a strength which is naturally inherent in a very autocratic Government—is the extent to which in every sphere her resources, whatever they are, are, and not only are, but have long been, organised for such a contingency as has now occurred; and the weakness of our country, such as it is, a weakness largely temporary and finding its remedy, day by day, as the War proceeds, consists largely, as you might expect in a democratic country, in that our resources have not been organised in the same scientific manner, but are scattered and are not readily all brought to bear on the immediate object that now lies before us. I am very glad that in communication with our Allies the Government have set themselves to work to organise, for the purposes of the War, the resources of the three countries. As I say, those resources are enormous. Take the statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made; the single figure which he gave, that we could carry on the expenses, the huge expenses, of this War for five years out of our foreign investments; that France could carry on in the same way, could pay her expenses, for two or three years from the same source; while if you turn to Russia, though her resources are not in the same form, the wealth of that country, the inherent natural resources which are
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  only just beginning to be developed, are so great that they in themselves ensure to Russia the future credit, the future wealth, which justifies her in undertaking, and enables her to undertake, and gives her the credit for undertaking what aver expenditure she may have to bear in the present crisis.
  I am very glad that the three Allies decided against any large joint loan. I know from reading foreign papers and other sources that such an idea found favour in some quarters. I think it found favour, not solely on financial grounds, but partly on what I may call moral grounds, grounds, as it were, drawn from the psychology of the peoples concerned; and that one reason, and perhaps the main reason, why this proposal was supported in some quarters was that it made the partnership between the three countries, for the purpose of the War, more solid, and that it emphasised the closeness of our alliance and the community of our interests. I do not say that that is an idea which we can afford altogether to neglect, but I say confidently on behalf of our people that we do not need any joint loan to secure that in common with our Allies we will wage this War until it is brought to a successful end. We do not need any financial ties to bind us to them. Ties of affection, of regard, of blood shed in common efforts already made in common, the interests which we guard in common, and for which we fight in common, are quite sufficient to bind us firmly to them without any artificial bond forged in the form of a particular loan; and, though I do not profess to speak for others, I say confidently for our own that the effect, not merely on our own, but the effect on the credit of our Allies in the market of a huge joint loan would have been bad, and, indeed, I doubt whether anything could have been worse.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer raised some of the obvious objections. Whose credit do you take as a test of the price at which you issue the loan? Is it A's, or B's, or C's, or what combination of the three? I am quite certain that in any scheme of the kind, if it had been attempted to float a loan of the kind in our market, or any other market, the result would have been, not to raise the credit of all the partners, or of any of the partners, but to pull down the individual credit of each one of the Allies. I am glad that such a proposal was not approved of at the Conference between the

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  Allies. Of all the proposals which were approved of there is but one on which I have any criticism to offer. I approve heartily of the arrangement come to for improving the exchange between Russia and this country. No doubt the best way of improving the exchange is to free the course of trade between Russia and the rest of the world. Do not let it be thought that nothing is being done in that respect. The route viâ Archangel has been kept open longer than anybody dared suppose that it could have been when the War broke out. It has become known for the first time during the War how long it can be kept open, and we have good reason to hope that just as it has been kept open much longer than was expected, so it may be reopened earlier than would have been expected.
  We all of us hope, too, that the other measures which are in process of being taken may succeed in setting free the course of trade into and out of Russia. But meantime it is of the utmost importance that the exchange with Russia should be improved, and I heartily commend, if I may say so, the steps which the Allied Governments have agreed upon for that purpose. Equally commendable and equally urgent is the agreement which they came to as to purchasing in neutral countries. We know how difficult it is to prevent overlapping in our own country, and to prevent one Government Department, or one semiofficial representative of the Government bidding against another. It is equally important that we should not raise prices against one another in the markets of the world, and that in buying, as in all other fields of finance, we should co-operate, we should exchange confidences with the greatest freedom, and we should act together, not merely on broad lines, but also in detail.
  4.0 P.M.
  As I said, there is only one thing to which I wish to refer. That is the one exception which the Ministers of the Allied Powers have made at the conference to the decision not to have a general loan. I do not know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be in a position to tell us anything more on that subject. I do not press him if he does not wish to, and particularly I do not wish to press for information which it might not be In the interest of the country, or which it might not be within the amenities which we owe to our Allies, to give at this moment. But if the
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  Chancellor of the Exchequer is prevented from saying more, I do not think that I can do any harm by making a suggestion across the floor of the House. It must be obvious that if the objections to a joint loan on a grand scale are such as the Chancellor of the Exchequer evidently felt them to be, and such as I have myself endeavoured to state them to be to-day, the objections to a joint loan on a small scale are not to be overlooked. They are the same in kind; they are only different in degree. Though I do not want to underrate the difference in degree, still, I say for myself, that I think that a joint loan is a thing to be avoided if it can be, in the interests of our Allies quite as much as in our own. The joint loan which the Allied Powers contemplated was a loan for the benefit of the minor Allies like Belgium or Servia. I would not have it thought that anyone here grudges the assistance which it may be found necessary or desirable to give to the Belgian Government. We grudge no assistance to the Belgian Government, or the Belgian people, the benefits of which go to them and not to the German Army of occupation, and that is the only limit which I put on the readiness which we should have to come to the assistance of the Belgian Government, or the Belgian people. I can see that it is an important limitation, but, observing that, I can see that there will be again, as there has been in the past, a clear necessity to give financial assistance to the Belgian Government, and that that must be given in one form or another with the aid of the Allied Powers. The suggestion that I want to make to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it is not too late, is that instead of the Allied Powers raising a joint loan, the proceeds of which are to be handed over to the Belgians, the Belgians should raise the loan under the joint guarantee of the Powers. I may say that if it can take that form, we shall avoid the disadvantages which attend upon a loan being raised direct on the general credit of the Allies. I will not argue the question further with the Chancellor of the Exchequer now; I think it is sufficient to make the suggestion, and he, I am quite certain, will consider it. I do not ask him to say at the present moment whether it will be acceptable or not. One further point I wish to touch upon. I am sorry to say that I was not present at the discussion raised by the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) last night, which, though not directly

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  raised in relation to this Motion, is the same kind of subject as that we are discussing. I have read the report of the discussion which the hon. Member raised in regard to the Treasury notes which are now in circulation. He urged upon the Government that they should withdraw those notes, but I differ from the hon. Gentleman on the view's which he expressed with regard to their effect on prices, and I do not think that would be a wise course. I do not attribute to the existence of these notes the whole of the rise in prices, or indeed, that they have such an influence on the rise in prices as the hon. Member for Coventry thinks.
  I have held for a long time, and I may say that my view is confirmed by the attention I have had to give to the subject of currency, and by the evidence which I received when I sat as Chairman of the Royal Commission on Indian finance and currency last year. I have held for a long time that gold in the pockets of our people, what Lord Goschen called "the vaistcoat-pocket," is not a very useful reserve for any national purpose. But, as a matter of fact, we carry about the same amount of gold whether in time of crisis or not, and that gold is not readily made available for international currency when the need for it in that capacity arises. Therefore I hold that the internal circulation of gold is a wholly wasteful use of it; on the whole it is an out of date use of it, and the greatest development of our financial system has been the substitution of paper for gold. The largest substitution has been in the form of the cheque. We do not readily realise how small a part of the currency is in gold or silver, or even bank notes, and how very large a proportion of it is in the form of the cheque; and provided that the issue of notes is not an artificial inflation of the currency, but responds to a real need for currency, the more you can substitute notes in internal use for gold the better I think, the more economical, the more, shall I say, civilising, the more advanced your currency becomes. I do not care about seeing a great deal of gold in in the pockets of the people; I care about seeing a large reserve of gold centralised for use in emergency. If you have secured your reserve of gold and the emergency arises, then I hold that the most foolish thing you can do is to fail to use your gold. You get your gold together in order to use it when the emergency arises. You get it together in order that when the exchanges go against you, you may correct
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  the adverse balance of exchange by using your gold, and unless it is so used at that time it seems pure waste of gold to board it in reserve.
  That is not a doctrine which is popular in any foreign country that I know, but it is a sound doctrine, and I hope that the whole of the influence that we can bring to bear through the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the counsels of the Allies will be directed to make them use their gold reserves freely when those gold reserves are required. We might all learn a lesson from these large international Powers from our own domestic experience in the early days of the War. When the banks reopened after the August Bank Holiday there was a queue, if I remember rightly, at the Bank of England for two or three days. On the first day there was a considerable queue at the Bank of England of people desirous of changing notes into gold. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer did indicate to the House that some of these gentlemen who came in ultra-British costume, spoke with a slightly foreign accent, but, at any rate, they were there—there was a crowd. If the Bank of England had refused to give, out gold the crowd would have gone on growing; but the Bank of England paid out the gold; they not only afforded opportunities to the people to get gold, but gave additional facilities, and the result was that on the second day the queue was not nearly so big as on the first day, and in three or four days there was no queue at all. You have got to study the psychology of people under circumstances of this kind. If the Government show their confidence, if they use their gold freely they very soon restore confidence in the public mind, and the demand which lack of confidence brought dies away.
  Again I say—and I do not think I am talking a doctrine which is repellent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that I hope our interests will be used to persuade our Allies that in this matter the boldest course, the safest course, is that it is as unwise for States to hoard gold as it is for individuals within the States. I have said all I wanted to say. I hope I have said nothing which can possibly make the Chancellor of the Exchequer's task more difficult, or that will be resented or objected to, as an expression of opinion coming from an unofficial Member of this House, by the Foreign Ministers mostly concerned I have had the honour of being acquainted with M. Ribot for thirty

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  years; I have had the honour of being presented to M. Bark, when he was in this country the other day. I am quite certain that those Ministers, at any rate, are with our Chancellor of the Exchequer in desiring to make the best use possible of all the resources of the Allies, to secure our common end, and I say on behalf of the Opposition that we are equally united with the Government in their purposes, and we will give them every assistance in our power in order to secure that end.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I am sorry to say that I do not think I have anything useful to add to what has fallen from my right hon. and hon. Friends and from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, who has stated with very great discretion the British view of this transaction. But it will be thoroughly realised that I am not as much at liberty as he is to enter upon the whole of these I transactions as if they only affected I British finance. They affect the position of Russia and of France as well. Their difficulties are not ours, and ours are not theirs. Therefore I should be very sorry to say anything in the course of the Debate which, though it might not matter so far as this country is concerned, might be a cause of considerable embarrassment to them, because of their particular difficulties being affected. I think I have told the House of Commons every liability which we have incurred, and I think the House is entitled to know. Considerations were urged in the course of the Conference which I do not think it would be wise for me to enter into in the course of a discussion in the House of Commons under present conditions of publicity. But as far as our liabilities are concerned, there is no liability which I need not state to the House. The limit of our liability is the sums of money, credits, which Russia would need and would wish to establish for purchases abroad. That is only a trifling or small proportion of the total liability of Russia for war purposes, and therefore the House can figure out for itself the limit of the liabilities we have incurred in respect of Russia and the smaller Powers With regard to the question
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  of the joint loan, I am in entire agreement with the right hon. Gentleman, and I do not mind saying so. It is a point of view which I have raised. The idea of joint loans is in much greater favour on the Continent than it is on this side, but when you enter into a Conference of this kind you must do so with the idea that you do not get all your own way, and perhaps the House will allow me to leave it just there. The matter is not finally settled, and there will be another Conference in London when the occasion admits. For the moment there is no idea of a joint loan being given even in the case of the smaller States. Therefore there is no immediate need of discussing the question of joint loans, and I have no doubt that before the matter is decided upon there will be another Conference. The objection put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham is a very practical one. I am glad to think, and I have no doubt, that it will be one of the suggestions which the Conference will take into account when the time arrives. There is a good deal to be said for it. It may be the best method of hypothecating our joint credit for these joint purposes, if it be found that on the whole the Powers would prefer that the experiment of a joint loan to this limited extent should be tried.
  With regard to the other question put by the right hon. Gentleman, I agree with him that there is no difference in principle between floating a joint loan for the whole of our expenditure and floating a joint loan merely for making advances to the smaller States. It is a question of degree, but the degree matters very much here. For instance, there is a vast difference between going to the City of London for a loan for, say, eight hundred million of pounds, and going to the City of London for a joint loan of fifty million pounds. There is a vast difference. Therefore the degree counts here almost as much as the principle. The latter is not a very important, transaction, and if it fails it simply means that each of the countries will have to shoulder its share of the liability, whereas in the other case it might mean a serious financial disaster. That is why, up to the

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  present, we have resisted very strongly any notion of having a big joint loan. All the arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman against that loan and by my hon. Friend behind are arguments which I think are absolutely irresistible, but the matter, I have no doubt, will be considered when we get our fresh Conference. The other point which the right hon. Gentleman put to me was as to the question of currency. There I am completely in accord with him, and he put the position so very lucidly that there is nothing I can possibly add. I agree absolutely with him. I think it is desirable that you should have a considerable reserve of gold here at the Bank of England or in the Treasury. I think it is equally desirable that it should be freely used whenever the emergency arises. Unfortunately, I had not the opportunity of listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) last night. I missed that pleasure but I have read what he said, and I need hardly tell him I could not possibly find myself in agreement with him. I think it would be a very great misfortune if we accepted the views which he has taken as to paper currency. I think it would be a very great mistake. I take quite the contrary view, as expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, that we are on the road to a much more efficient use of our credit when we use paper currency within safe limits.
  Mr. HOGGE: What are safe limits?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think we are certainly well within the mark, and there is no country in the world which compares with this country in the matter. I do not want to go into the question, because it might involve criticism of other countries. My hon. Friend has only got to look at the gold basis of the paper currency in any other country to compare it with ours, and there is absolutely no comparison between what happens in this country and in others. I also agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the most important thing of all is that you should give confidence by being perfectly prepared to use your gold. It is very largely a question of psychology and that is one
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  reason why I think foreign countries are very nervous about using their gold. I do not want to express an opinion as to whether they are too nervous, but the fact that we use it freely shows that it is not our view. I always thought they were miserly in using their gold, and that there is too much disposition even to-day to worship the golden calf. Here you have 150, 160, or 180 millions of gold, and there it remains merely as an idol, not for use in currency, but purely in order to worship and to give that sort of strength which conies from an implicit belief in your idol. We have never proceeded on that assumption. Here we have always-gone on the principle that our gold is here to be used whenever there is a demand for it, and it has never failed us up to the present. It is true we never had such a strain upon it as during the last few months, and very likely it will be considerably increased during the course of the next six or twelve months, when our purchases abroad are very much heavier than they ever were before, and when our sales to other countries are considerably less.
  Therefore the strain will be greater. I do not like prophesying too much, but I do not mind saying that the reserves of gold we have got at our command will carry us through any emergency which we can possibly forsee. That is my firm conviction, not merely from my own observation, but from enquiries which I have very carefully made in the City of London and elsewhere outside. Therefore, there is no fear at all so far as that is concerned. I agree here again with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think there is any special pleasure in paying your debts in gold where a piece of paper will do equally well. I think it is wasteful and burdensome and not particularly useful. In this matter, speaking generally, it is most important that we should be prepared to utilise our resources, the whole resources of this country, which are very great. Here we have had six months of war—very nearly seven or tight months of war—of the most expensive war ever waged—as I pointed out the other day. To-day we have to raise twenty millions in the City of London by six

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  months' Bills and twelve months' Bills. They were considerably over-subscribed. For the twelve months' Bills we have got to pay an average interest of £2 17s., and for the six months' Bills—subscribed three or four times over—we will have to pay £1 12s. 3d.
  That does not look as if the resources of this country were involved in the terrible consequences referred to by the hon. Member last night. Our resources are being very well contained. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the resources of this country and the joint resources of our Allies are enormous, and in this struggle that is what almost primarily matters. This will be a war not merely of men, but even more of equipment. That is where the Allies have fallen short of their great enemy, because of the preparation which he had undertaken, and which he had carried out from year to year; but in this matter, time counts. As to the resources of the various countries, in men our resources are greater, and in money our resources are greater. Time and a full application of these resources is all that is necessary. A bold, courageous, resolute application of all our strength, that is all that is necessary, and if we do that, we will win.
  Mr. PETO: I am not going to attempt either a eulogy or criticism of these great financial arrangements. I happen to have the good fortune to follow the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and may I be allowed to express the pleasure with which I listened to the statement he made on this subject seven or eight days ago, and that which he has made to-day. In his commencing statement he said he had not perhaps the extraordinary facility of the Prime Minister of compression, but it appears to mo that the bigger the subject the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to deal with, the more brief and lucid have been his statements. The point I wish to refer to is a comparatively small one. I refer to the question where our smaller Allies come in, and how the liability is to be dealt with. Whether there is to be a joint loan or otherwise I do not concern myself, for I am not competent to give any opinion. There is, however, in these schemes of the Allies not only the
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  definite principle that it is the duty of the Allies not only to put all their resources jointly into this great struggle but that the obligation rests on the larger and wealthier nations to assist our smaller Allies who have fought so well in the common cause. The Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed that on the 15th instant, these words:—
  "There is Servia, with the population of Ireland, a people of peasants maintaining an Array of 300,000 and fighting her third great war within two years, and fighting that with great resource and great courage and bravery, but with no reserves of wealth and now no exports with which she can purchase munitions of war outside, and she has hardly any manufactures of her own. That is the position as far as the small States are concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th February, cols. 912 and 913.]
  I welcome that statement and the proof that it is now recognised so far as the Allies are concerned that it is a national obligation to do something to assist financially and in other ways those of the smaller states which are in this Alliance. My object in rising is to call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the House to the fact that that has not been fully recognised even as lately as last month. Last month an appeal to private benevolence was issued through the Press, and it was signed by Lord Curzon, the Bishop of London, the Bishop of Oxford, and fourthly, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. That appeal dealt not only with question of the wounded and the provision of Red Cross resources, but went on to say:—
  "That is not all. The Servian Relief Fund has made itself the medium of assistance in every form, whether for Rod Cross purposes or for starving refugees. The need could not be more urgent. What, is aimed at is simply the preservation of human life, and the funds we have in hand are already exhausted by our commitments, and unless more money, and that on an adequate scale, is immediately forthcoming we shudder to think of the consequences."
  That is a very big undertaking to leave to private benevolence, even in this country. I welcome the fact that now the support of the civilian population, left in that state of penury and indigence so ably expressed in that appeal, has been recognised to be a national concern. I am particularly glad of that because of this statement which follows the sentence I have just read: "Several of those who have already given once are giving again." That is the effect of trying to carry out what is, I venture to say, a national obligation by an appeal to private resources. Those resources probably prove to be wholly inadequate, because you will only get subscriptions from a limited number of generous people. I think that in this question of pooling the

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  resources of the Allies we should also consider that the great expenses of the War ought to be distributed through the means of taxation equitably over the whole of the people. There will still be good reason for every benevolently disposed person to assist in one way or another what may be considered real and proper objects of charity.
  It seems to me that the country has a right to feel satisfied that the funds which will be available for this purpose will be adequate. I am certain that the country recognises the magnificent fight that Servia has put up. None of the Allies has borne the strain of war more bravely, and none, not even Belgium, has suffered more terribly from the War. Therefore, I believe that no part of this national scheme will be more welcomed than the fact that we have now undertaken to find, by one means or another, whatever money is necessary to prevent a state of starvation among the population as well as to assist in the equipment for war. There is an old saying that you cannot earmark money. There is no doubt that even Red Cross activities form a part, and a very important part, of the necessary expenses of war. It has been held to be so in the past. In the Russo-Turkish War, when we found money in this country for Red Cross purposes in Turkey, it was very properly pointed out by Russia that money subscribed for that purpose was a general assistance to one of the belligerents and liberated money for other purposes. You cannot separate these things entirely. I notice that the hon. Member for Blackburn, who has taken so much interest in Red Cross matters, stated in the "Westminister Gazette," on the 31st December, that this Government recognised that principle in connection with the Calais hospital and the Belgian wounded as long ago as last year. Therefore I am the more glad that we have now fully recognised that it is the duty of the stronger and larger of the Allies to assist in all these matters in a national manner. I sincerely hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give us some assurance that this question of the support of Servia and Belgium is now raised altogether above the level of any question of private charity.
  Mr. DAVID MASON (indistinctly heard): I agree with the hon. Member opposite as to the help we ought to give to our weaker Allies. That this matter has not been lost sight of is shown by the fact that loans have already been advanced to
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  Belgium and Servia. The right hon. Gentleman for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—who, I am sorry, is again prevented from being present—were good enough to refer to some views of mine on the question of Treasury Notes, and to my suggestion that those notes should be gradually withdrawn. I have spoken twice on this subject, and I hope I shall not be wearying Members if I again refer, though very briefly, to the point of view which I have endeavoured to bring before the House. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham expressed the view that this paper money had no effect whatever on prices. I think he made that sweeping assertion. I never stated that it was the sole cause of the rise in prices, but I am rather astonished that the right hon. Gentleman should have given expression to so sweeping a view that it had had no effect. It is, however, a very difficult matter to argue, and last night when I submitted my argument I backed it up by quotations from economists whose views would carry greater weight in this House than my own. If those authorities did not convince the right hon. Gentleman, I am afraid I cannot add much to the argument that I have already put forward.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will show the applicability of the argument to the present stale of affairs.
  Mr. D. MASON: Then the right hon. Gentleman does not deny that there is an effect from inflation; I see now his point of view. That, I think, simplifies my task. I will refer him to the same figures as before. I confine myself to our own country, where we have direct control, although there has been even greater inflation in Russia and France. I think I am right in saying that a year ago the Bank of England notes outstanding were something like £38,500,000. To-day the total paper currency outstanding is about £71,000,000. Let me prove my contention that this is in excess of the needs of the country. The right hon. Gentleman will agree that our trade has very considerably shrunk during the past year. The general aggregate of imports has been very great indeed, but the bank clearing, which is a very good test of trade and commerce, shows a decrease on the whole of from 30 to 60 per cent. There is, in consequence, a decrease in the demand for circulating medium. It might be argued that this issue of Treasury Notes has to

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  some extent taken the place of the sovereigns which formerly circulated. But even allowing for that, we know that there has been since July of last year a very large decrease in the general volume of trade. As an illustration, I might remind Members that the operations of the Stock Exchange have almost ceased. I am glad to observe that the right hon. Gentleman admits the principle which I enunciated, namely, that such an excess does have some effect. In further proof of my contention, I might refer to the effect of gold on prices. The right hon. Gentleman knows that a great increase in the production of gold affects prices. We know that the production of gold has not fallen off, but during the last few months there has been an immense destruction of commodities throughout the world. That is one result of a great war. You still have the same production of gold as you had last July, but with a decreased amount of commodities as against that gold. That, I submit, must also have, some effect on prices.
  I pass to the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My right hon. Friend expressed entire sympathy with the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, but I do not think he quite followed my contention. I have no objection whatever to paper money as such. But I submit that there is a distinct difference between paper money issued by banks and paper money issued by Governments. The superior advantage of paper money issued by banks consists in the fact that banks are human institutions—if I may put it in that way—while Governments are net. A bank is more susceptible to various influences; its credit contracts and expands more readily than that of a Government. Banking is a science, and banks are well qualified to know what reserves to keep against outstanding issues—knowledge which is acquired only by long experience. When notes become redundant people automatically present them to the bank, and that brings about a contraction in the currency. The essential feature is to make the notes payable in gold on demand. But what paper money such as Treasury Notes gains in security it loses in elasticity, because it would be a very long time before the Chancellor of the Exchequer or myself, or any other Member of the House, had any doubt as to the security of the British Government. Hence the result of an issue of Government paper is that it lies like so much dead weight currency,
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  and, as the people have no fear as to the stability of the Government, it does not readily contract. I do not for a moment contend that there has been an excessively abnormal abuse of this privilege by the present Government. But when this issue was first proposed in August last I asked the right hon. Gentleman if provision had been made for its redemption, and he gave me to understand that it was a temporary measure. We know that he acted with great courage in the steps that he took to prevent greater evils falling upon us in the shape of panics, and that the issue was in itself, as many assumed it to be, an urgency measure to tide over the crisis which had then come upon the City of London. He gave us to understand that he is in favour of paper as a substitute for gold. But the advantages of paper money are a subject entirely apart from the issue of paper money by the Government. The two are distinct. I ask the House to remember the distinction between paper money issued by the Government and bank notes, which in the nature of things affect one way or the other the credit of the particular institution issuing them. Therefore I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not quite understood the argument which I was endeavouring to submit to the House. That argument is, as I again say, the unquestionable fact that this £37,000,000 of currency issued by the Government is affecting prices. There has been a vast expansion of the currency in other parts of the world—in Russia, in France, and in America.
  I was very interested to hear the other day from someone who rather contended against my view that bread was dearer in America than here; that there has been a considerable inflation there. On 9th January there was an emergency circulation of something like 126,000,000 dollars. That has since, I believe, been considerably reduced. There again there is a measure, a bank act, at present in operation which unquestionably is leading to a considerable inflation. It is a measure which is well worth the attention of those interested in prices, because it tends to affect prices there. My contention is that when what I have been describing takes place, it unquestionably is a very large contributory factor in raising prices. If you raise prices as we have been raising them here, commodities all rise in price, and fall very hard on the suffering poor, on those in receipt of small wages, and it also tends

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  to tempt the merchant here to purchase because he is inclined to purchase on a rising market. This has tempted America, with large supplies of grain to sell, to flood this market with considerable commodities, and our merchants have been tempted, as a result of these rising prices, to become competitive and keen buyers. I admit there are other causes. There is labour, the railways, and transport. All these have had their effect upon prices, but it is acknowledged, and unquestionably confirmed by actual facts, that the large rise which has taken place has undoubtedly stimulated this enormous import from America to this country. Owing to the War we have had a considerable decrease in our exports, with the result that you have this adverse New York exchange upon London.
  There are an enormous number of sellers of bills in New York anxious to sell their bills and getting rather timid as to whether they will get clear of them, with the result, owing to our falling off of exports, that there are no people in America anxious to remit. The result is that the exchange rate continually drops, with the consequence that it gets below gold specie point. This must inevitably lead to the export of the metal from his side. There was another point raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that in the maintenance of these currency notes he was protecting his gold. There, again, his conclusion is based upon a fallacy. He contends that in issuing these, and maintaining the outstanding issue of Treasury Notes, he is protecting his gold reserves. At the same time he enlarged at considerable length—and quite properly—on the proud position of the London Money Market as a free market for gold—which it unquestionably is—perhaps the only free market. That has built up as a financial centre the City of London. That has enabled us to make—and the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London will bear me out—a bill upon London a popular instrument of exchange throughout the whole world. The reason of that is because, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, of the confidence, and because of our practice of always meeting our obligations upon the market in gold. The right hon. Gentleman argued that by maintaining this currency—which I have asked should be gradually redeemed—in maintaining it, as it were in circulation he protects his gold
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  reserve. He forgets that practically we are a great free market for gold, and that if any one, say, the right hon. Gentleman, or myself, was sufficiently well off to go to-morrow with notes and draw ten millions in gold, there is nothing in the world to prevent us. These notes, as the House is well aware, are payable in gold on demand.
  But my point is that the gradual redemption of these notes will be more effectual to protect our gold than leaving them outstanding as at present, because by leaving them outstanding and circulating you have created cheap money. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) will bear mo out when I say that money is almost unlendable to-day. I was told, for example, the other day where a merchant had gone to a bank and offered a deposit of £20,000, which the bank refused, saying they did not know what to do with it. There is no commensurate demand, be cause of the shrinkage of general trade. There is no demand on the Stock Exchange. There is no demand for capital which formerly was lent out in Stock Exchange operations, which might be lent out for discounting bills for large exporters in trade, for these exporters are exporting less, as the right hon. Gentleman knows well. You have this excessive or redundant currency, which to any one who has given any study at all to the question of notes creates a situation referred to in Gresham's "Law of Currency"—"When you have a redundant currency"—that is to say when you have a surplus currency—"where there are two currencies current, that which is of the lesser value becomes current, and gold is either hoarded or exported." The cheap ness of money brings about or accentuates the unfavourable exchange against you. It is quite true that the mere fact that the issue of these notes—the actual issue—does not create an unfavourable exchange, as I endeavoured to show last night, but the extra and abnormal issue of these notes tends to raise prices, and that in turn creates excessive importation, and excessive importation with less exportation is the cause of this unfavourable exchange. But the root of it all—and I hope I am not wearying the House—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member what we are discussing now is the statement on 15th February of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there is nothing in that about currency notes. That subject was discussed last night.
  Mr. D. MASON: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that I got from the point, but in my zeal for my subject I have been drawn away. I shall leave that matter. I would just like to make one or two observations on the question before the House, namely, the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would like also again to refer to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham said with regard to a guarantee. I should like to ask him whether he meant a guarantee severally or jointly, or whether he meant that each Power that guaranteed the loan should be liable for the whole of the loan in the event of necessity, or else that it would only be guaranteed, say, for the one-third of it? Certainly a guarantee is not to the same extent the same as a joint loan. I should like to call attention to what the Chancellor said himself with regard to a joint loan. There I am entirely in agreement that a joint loan would be most undesirable. I do hope that even for a small amount, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not yet finally decided—I think he was kind enough to tell us that there is to be another conference—that he will not yet commit this Government or this country to a joint loan, because it follows—without in any way wishing to reflect either upon France or Russia—for it is a well-known fact that British credit is the best—that to enter into a joint operation would not do much good for us, and would bring us rather down to their level of credit than to bring their credit up to ours. That would tend to create a depreciation in British credit which it is essential we should do our utmost to maintain. If our credit is maintained we shall be better able to help our Allies.
  5.0 P.M.
  I for one would certainly subscribe to the sentiment, which was so eloquently expressed by the Mover of the Resolution and ably seconded, that we should do everything possible to support our Allies in the great undertaking in which we are engaged. I hope that nothing will be done further with regard to a joint loan. If we have to make advances to our Allies let us make them, and then we shall know exactly what our liability is. Do not let us, if I may say so, enter into a joint loan which even for a small amount would be establishing a precedent, and all the evils of it would be equally there, because the principle involved would be equally involved as in the larger operation. Just one word as to the statement of the Chancellor as to the £50,000,000 loan which has
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  already been agreed upon. I do not know whether that commits this country to that amount, or whether it includes the £40,000,000 already advanced to Russia. Perhaps some representative of the. Government will be kind enough, if he is in a position to do so, to tell the House what exactly is our liability. I understood that the total liability was £40,000,000 to Russia, £32,000,000 lent and the other £8,000,000 for gold. Does that mean, with- reference to the £50,000,000, the proposal which is a conclusion of the joint loan? In conclusion, I desire to say how heartily I am in sympathy with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in general agreement with the Resolution before the House.
  Sir J. D. REES: I will not attempt to follow the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House on currency questions. There is only one, observation I would make, which I trust is relevant, and that would be in support of the official view expressed on both Front Benches, that the other Continental nations, who had far larger reserves of gold, do not seem to have done better in this crisis than we have, if they have done so well. This is due, I suppose, to the fact that their reserves were hoarded as war chest and not for circulation. For my part I would only express my gratitude, as one interested in the production of gold, for the arrangements made by the Exchequer and the Bank of England for making available at home gold won in South Africa and India in the most efficient and ready manner during the crisis of last August and September. The only reason that I got up was to express my great satisfaction at any arrangement being made which brings this country into closer and more friendly, financial and other relations with the Russian Empire, and I hope the good old rule will be followed that partners should not speak ill of one another, and that in future those who have been inclined to criticise the Government of Russia will remember we are now more closely than ever connected, and will refrain from what may be considered, under present circumstances, at least an untactful procedure. Those who are acquainted with the Russians know their many merits, and those acquainted with the Russian Government know the exaggeration of its demerits, and I hope

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  in any case, now we shall be so closely connected, that those who feel called upon on all occasions to criticise that country and that Government may for these obvious reasons refrain in future. I should like to add my humble plea to what was said in regard to economy. I do not see the slightest sign anywhere that local bodies feel that this is a time for economy and not a time for adding anything to the rates. Before the War, rates were raised to war rates. It does not matter whether a man pays rates or taxes, they come out of the same pocket. I should like to put it to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether it would be contrary to precedent, contrary to propriety, or in any way improper or inadvisable, to issue one of those circulars, which seem to be issued continually without any very strong reason, advising local bodies to be economical and not incur fresh expenditure, and, in any case, to avoid increasing the rates. Similar advice is being given to the public elsewhere in regard to, let us say, waste of food. Why should not the same thing be done with regard to expenditure by local bodies? I believe it is urgently wanted. Will the hon. Gentleman kindly consider that? If he does I shall be extremely grateful to him, and so will many other miserable ratepayers who do not realise what money is being taken out of their pocket. I believe on the adjournment to-day an objection is going to be raised to some measure to save them in some respects. I add my appeal to that already made, that expenditure on education, so enormous that if one child lacks one-hundred-thousandth part of a cubic inch of atmosphere it does not get in its own house—
  Mr. KING: Is it in order, Mr. Speaker, to discuss local government and the educational systems of our country on this Motion?
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is about as disorderly as to discuss currency.
  Sir J. D. REES: The hon. Gentleman interrupted me readily, but I have really done my sole reference to local government, and a longer one had already been made by a right hon. Gentleman. At any rate, my few remarks are finished, and I will not trouble the hon. Gentleman any more.
  Mr. GODFREY COLLINS: I should like to make one or two observations in regard to what the hon. Member (Mr. D. Mason)
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  has said. He stated that our paper currency was now £71,000,000, but he omitted to say that our gold reserve has increased by nearly the same amount, so that, although our paper currency has increased, we hold gold in reserve to almost the same percentage as formerly. He also said the amount of gold had led to increased prices, and there I am in agreement with him. I believe that the deluge of gold to-day has lowered the purchasing power of the metal, and so, by that means, you have increased the price of commodities the wide world over. The first conference of the Finance Ministers of the Allies revealed the dominating influence of finance in this War. Few conferences have so touched the imagination as the meeting of the Finance Ministers of the Allies at Paris. The public are accustomed to see and hear of Generals conferring together but this conference revealed the modern conditions of warfare which exist to-day. In July last, no doubt the German Government anticipated that their heavy financial obligations in the past, and which will arise through this War, would be repaid with compound interest by their beaten foes at the end of the War, but to-day the German currency, the German Exchange and German credit are at a heavy discount, and, as the commercial instinct of the Teutonic race asserts itself and finds its true and proper level, I believe a reaction will inevitably set in, and that the desire and demand for peace will grow in strength. One of the proposals which the Finance Ministers agreed to was to centralise the buying of the Allies in the neutral markets of the world. This undoubtedly is a very wise proposal, but I believe a large economy would be effected if, in addition, it were possible for the buyer to conceal his intention and so stop sellers putting up the price against the Government buyer.
  This Conference was notable not only for the arrangements which have been announced. The Conference will undoubtedly mean a large number of capital commitments in the future. I can conceive a large Russian loan of, perhaps, £100,000,000, and perhaps a loan of an equal amount to the smaller States, being launched and floated in this country. I am quite sure the money will be forthcoming, but I only mention this point—and this is my sole object in rising—to urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-husband the financial resources of this country as much as possible. In this scuffle no one desires to interfere with the

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  sacrifices which this country is making in comparson with our Allies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has stated that this country's financial obligations are heavier and larger than any one of our Allies. Our financial strength is our sheet anchor, and is to our Allies what the German military organisation is to our enemies, so that I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will husband our resources as much as possible. To give a little instance, we had a scheme before this House yesterday which did not find favour in practically any quarter of this House. In conclusion, I should like to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in conducting the financial policy arising out of this War has shown not only courage, but imagination, combined with a grasp of detail, which has prevented disaster overtaking the commercial and wage-earning classes of the community.
  Mr. ANNAN BRYCE: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his statement yesterday week, made one very interesting announcement, and that was that he had made arrangements whereby France should have access to our markets for Treasury Bills issued in francs. Now that raises the large question of the establishment of a sound basis of exchange. It will be quite impossible to get bills taken in this market, which would be very desirable from many ponts of view, unless he could show means by which, when the money has to be remitted again, it could be done without a loss. The question bears also on what he said to-day about the re-establishment of the Russian Exchange. Business is hampered all round the world by the fact of the irregularity of the Exchanges. The French Exchange has risen lately, and it it likely to rise a great deal further in the future. The Russian Exchange, after coming down to something like 107 about a fortnight ago, has again gone up to 112, so that it is quite impossible for business to be done with Russia at present. The means which have been adopted for improving the export facilities of Russia by doubling the existing single line of railway to Archangel will not really deal with the question, because there will never be any possibility of any very large amount of Russian produce coming through that channel. The Dardanelles must be opened in order to effect a change by way of permitting any considerable body of Russian exports. There is another way, of course, in which
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  it could be done—the way the Chancellor of the Exchequer has really adopted to a certain extent by providing credits for Russia in England—but that cannot go on indefinitely unless Russia will provide a larger amount of gold. Russia has an enormous amount of gold stored up of which she does not make any use, and it might just as well be here as in Petrograd for all the good it is doing. In the same way the French will not pay gold against their bills, and their gold might just as well be here. It would rehabilitate the French Exchange, and if Russian gold were here, in any quantity it would tend to make possible business between Russia and this country. There is a matter which has been alluded to by the hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. Godfrey Collins), and in which the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) is interested, that of the economy of our own resources by not permitting the issue of flotations for foreign countries. I think myself that the Treasury Committee is acting in rather a doubtful way at present on that question. It is excessively difficult now to get permission for the advancing of money on foreign enterprises, and it must be borne in mind that, if that is carried to any considerable extent, it will affect this country in a great number of different ways.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I am sorry, but will the hon. Member say that over again?
  Mr. BRYCE: I was only referring to the Committee which has to pass the applications for further issues of capital either in this country or abroad. I think what I have complained of is going to damage business in Great Britain in many ways. It is going to prevent orders coming to this country, and if we do not lend money to foreign countries to the same extent we shall certainly interfere with our exports. I agree that it is highly desirable that we should reserve our resources for the immediate necessities of the War, but instructions may be interpreted too strictly.
  Sir A. MARKHAM: I wish to put a question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I understood that the arrangement made between the Foreign Finance Ministers was that so far as possible no country would make new issues of stock. To my astonishment last week a letter was received from Sir John Bradbury, written to a co-director of mine, stating that no country could renew debentures in existing concerns without

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  Treasury sanction. That is really a very serious matter. There are concerns carried on in this country from day to day and month by month which have large debentures and renew them week by week and month by month. I am myself the chairman of a company which has debenture issues of £1,000,000 spread over small amounts, and they are continually falling due. I know there is great astonishment among business men in regard to this matter. I wrote to the Treasury nearly a fortnight ago on behalf of one company, and I got a formal acknowledgment of my letter, but I am no more forward than I was then. This company would take between £10,000 and £40,000 in renewal of debentures, and we cannot do this because they are hung up by the Treasury. We all want to strengthen the hands of the Government and see that no issues should be made which would prevent the Government getting money for the prosecution of the War. But where you have old-established companies or any company carrying on business before the War, that such companies should have to reorganise all their financial arrangements every time a debenture falls due is absolutely ridiculous. I hope, therefore, that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will give this matter his attention, because I am quite certain that, a great majority of the business men in this country have no idea that the Government have taken up this attitude. I think it is just as well that the trading community should know that the Treasury do require to consent to the renewal of all debentures in existing concerns.
  Mr. OUTHWAITE: I desire to express my dissatisfaction with the remarks which have been made by some hon. Members implying that in the War we are not bearing our full share of the common obligations of the Allies. I do not think it is a wise thing for sentiments such as those to go forward, because they are likely to create difficulties in the future. I believe that by enrolling millions of men and making arrangements for the financing of the War, this country is fully maintaining its obligations. I wish to point out the danger of that view being taken in this House and in the country, and I would like to refer on this point to the speech which the British Ambassador at Petrograd has recently found it necessary to make. He had to make a speech justifying England's position, declaring that we were doing this and that and meeting
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  charges contained in a propaganda which is going on in Russia, and which I believe is being directed against the United Kingdom and in favour more or less of Germany. That propaganda is being pressed forward by a powerful Conservative party in Russia, and that party before the War broke out had for its object what was called the ending of "the unnatural alliance between France and Russia," and also the unnatural alliance which has since come about between Great Britain and Russia. I find that a leading organiser of this propaganda (A. Socoloff), writing on the position of Belgium, says:—
  "If some of the disorderly and anarchically organised commonwealths of the west (meaning Belgium and a part of France) are replaced by the iron rule of the Emperor William, we shall have no reason to be grieved. The world at large will only gain by the change."
  That appeared in the "Globe" newspaper. In the same way we find the position of Great Britain being belittled, and this has been said in regard to the exportation of gold to this country by Russia, in order to re-establish her trade connection. The Russian Government exported £8,000,000 of gold to London, and the Bank of England undertook the issue of £12,000,000 Treasury bills. Here is the view expressed in the "Novoe Vremya" on 12th Xovember:—
  "In tins difficult position a comparatively modest amount of gold was obtained by us only on the English market, and even that on terms very insulting to us, viz., credit was open to us for £12,000,000 on the stipulation that we remit to London £8,000,000 in gold from our reserve fund."
  The article goes on to say:—
  "Many bitter complaints were uttered already in our Press, in connection with this loan, against the English."
  Then again I find that a most important paper edited by Professor Migulin takes this view:—
  "The credit for the said £12,000,000 was given on condition that bullion is sent abroad. In fact, it is not England that is supporting Russia with money, but it, is Russia that is supporting England, supplying the latter with gold in order to maintain the regular gold circulation there, whereas we are obliged to return to a paper circulation. From the point of view of national pride, the fact that Russia plays, in the present war, the leading rôle, not only in a military sense but also financially, supplying her allies with money, is very gratifying and raises the importance of our country to an unprecedented height. … It is beyond any doubt that in the present War Russia plays the leading rôle. We are not in need of others, but others are in need of us."
  Such a statement and the tone adopted by the mover of the Resolution does not help us in a matter of finance, and does not assist us in providing the great Army which is going to save the British Empire.

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  I entirely dissent from those sentiments belittling our efforts on behalf of the Allies, because we have been pledging our credit and doing everything which our trade and national stability enable us to do. If we turn to America and consider the condition of things in the Argentine we find that they are turning to America for money. That means money will not go from America to the Argentine in the form of gold. It will go in the form of goods, and the interest payments will go back in the form of goods. It will mean employment for American working men in place of employment for British working men. I say, therefore, that in this matter of the organisation of our finance and the control of finance we are doing a vast amount. The country was astonished the other day to find from the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it has been already left or will be left in the course of this year to the United Kingdom to find a greater sum of money for this War than either of our Allies who are more immediately concerned with it.
  I would also like to enter my protest in another matter. The Treasury, through the control of the Stock Exchange established by them, have been able to place this embargo on the issue of capital and to get control over commerce in this country. Yet no statement as to the methods to be adopted or as to the Committee appointed has been, so far as I know, made to this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This autocratic method now adopted by the Government is treating the House with absolute contempt in a matter of absolutely the greatest importance to our national interest. I say no more except to hope that tone of deference or humility as regards our endeavours and the fulfilment of our obligations in this matter will no longer be adopted. It has largely risen from the fact that at the outset we did not straightway say we were entering into this War in support of France who had got involved in support of Russia. Our position would have been much clearer, and what we have done would have been much more appreciated, if we had said that we had no material interest whatever but that, in support of obligations which we had incurred, we were placing our millions of men and our hundreds of millions of finance at the disposal of either country.
  Mr. KING: The House ought to congratulate the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Outhwaite) on his very courageous speech. He has had the courage to say things which I am afraid I would not have had the courage to say, and, personally. I offer him my admiration. I hope that the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), who, after he had fallen foul of other Members in the speech which he delivered, immediately went out as usual, will read the speech of my hon. Friend. He will be then, perhaps, less cantankerous towards his own countrymen, and more able to appreciate the position. I wish to support this Motion. I am entirely in agreement with the wording of the Resolution on the Paper. We, as a country, at the outset of the War, were immediately able to largely increase our taxation, and to obtain a large increase of revenue. Our two great Allies, France and Germany—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—I mean Russia. Germany have carried on business just in the old, old way. They have neither increased nor diminished their Imperial taxation. Local taxation is different. I may also point out that they are the only country which did not find it necessary to impose a moratorium. The Germans, let it be said to their credit—they have very little to be placed to their credit at the present time—are carrying on business as usual in a way in which other countries are not. My point is that some notice ought to be taken of the fact that while we increased our taxation at the beginning of the War our great Allies reduced their taxation. Russia, for instance, did away with one tax which brought in something like £90,000,000 clear. If that is not reducing taxation, what is it? France, in the same way, took off a number of Import Duties. While we are increasing our taxation for the sake of our Allies, our Allies are reducing their taxation for the sake of themselves.
  I do not state this fact to in any way reproach or to doubt the ardour of myself or Ministers or anybody else for the cause of the Allies, but I think it is a question which ought to receive some notice in the reply of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I know that he is new to the office, but he is an extremely able man, and with the confidence of youth I am sure that he can address himself to this point. There is another point worthy of consideration. It was suggested to me by the remarks of the Chancellor of the

  217
  Exchequer upon the total abolition of the sale of vodka in Russia. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a speech which I noticed was not in his usual rhapsodical style, but entirely written out on paper, and therefore carefully thought out, appeared to have come to the view that the abolition of the sale of vodka had doubled the efficiency and working power of the Russian people. I wish he had given us some more details and had enlarged upon that idea, because I do not see why we should not increase our efficiency at the present time. I am not quite sure whether we can do it by abolishing the sale of whisky and beer, but I am quite sure it is true of a certain number of people that their efficiency could be greatly increased if the consumption of alcohol was entirely abolished. I believe I am expressing the view of the country generally when I say that we are prepared now to have stringent social legislation if it can be direct and instantaneous in its effect.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member having preached to others, has himself become a castaway.
  Mr. KING: I will try to find myself. I am not quite sure how I am a castaway. You have very kindly allowed the widest limits in this Debate.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I stopped it as soon as the hon. Member called my attention to it. I restricted hon. Members. Now he is violating the canons which he himself laid down.
  Mr. KING: I am extremely obliged to you for that ruling. I intend, of course, to follow it at once. If I may respectfully justify myself, I would remind you that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech yesterday week did refer to this vodka prohibition. There is another point of view in connection with this Debate upon which I desire very respectfully and tentatively to touch. At a time like this, when you develop the financial policy of the Allies as a whole, you cannot help also affecting their political objects. I know that there is a school of politicians at the present time who say we have nothing but one great military object. Let us leave everything else aside and concentrate upon the defeat of our foes. That is very true, and, if you will show me how we can defeat our foes more quickly, and save the life, and the terrible devastation and loss of material, as well as moral riches which we are daily suffering, I will join with you
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  entirely to attain the military end which we all desire. A great War like this cannot be dissociated from its political objects any more than from its financial connection. If this is largely a question of finance, and if the financial sources of the Allies must be concentrated in one great harmonious endeavour, it is equally true that the policy of the Allies ought to be clear, harmonious and tend towards the one object of obtaining a victory for their great cause, a victory which will be recognised and welcomed in all the neutral countries of the world.
  This view has been unfortunately lost sight of both in the actual arrangements made by this financial deal between the three Finance Ministers and also in the speeches which we have heard upon the subject. Let me point to the well-known axiom of the great writer Clausewitz, who declared that "War is a continuation of Policy." You can never forget in time of war, if you are going to carry the war through successfully, the aim you have at the beginning. I hope that one of the great objects of the Allies is to continue to have the neutral countries of the world in their favour. It is of inestimable value and strength to the Allies to have the feeing in favour of their cause which on the whole is predominant in all the neutral countries of the world, though much more in some than in others, and much more at one time than at another. I regard it as of the greatest importance that we should have that neutral body of opinion increasingly in our favour. I believe that much might be done in connection with these financial provisions and proposals than have teen made. Let me just illustrate what I mean by the case of the United States. The opinion of the United States, both at the present time and in the future, is of extraordinary importance to us for many reasons. Surely it is of absolute prime importance how this new development which began on 18th February strikes the United States and how the United States will act. The United States policy is always dictated by the feeling of the people.
  Mr. SAMUEL ROBERTS: Is the hon. Member entitled to enter into the policy of the United States?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is allowing himself very wide licence, and I think it would be better if he confined himself more closely to the question be Fore the House.
  Mr. KING: I expect I do not know much more about America than the hon. Member who has just interrupted, but I think he does not realise, as I do, the extraordinary importance and seriousness of the position. A great deal of latitude has been allowed in connection with this Debate. I do not think, when a Member approaches this subject in a serious strain, as I have done, he ought to be called to order.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I have twice pointed out to the hon. Member that he has gone a considerable distance from the Motion before the House. On another occasion he found fault with an hon. Member on the same ground, and he should, therefore, be the last to complain.
  Mr. KING: I have never found fault with the hon. Member.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member raised the point that the hon. Member for Nottingham was proceeding beyond the strict limits of the Motion.
  Mr. KING: I shall not trouble the House further; I will only say this, which I think I am entitled to say, that in discussing these various, serious and important issues I have spoken with a sincere and earnest desire for the victory of right and of our cause. I am as sincerely desirous of that as any other Member, and if I have said a few words which I believe to be necessary—
  Sir A. MARKHAM: Is the hon. Member in order in taking this opportunity to withdraw a pro-German speech which he made at the beginning of the War?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I will ask the hon. Member to resume his seat.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Acland): I thought the discussion would confine itself more closely to the Motion on the Paper, and, therefore, I am not able to reply to some of those quite important matters to which attention has been called, but which recede perhaps a little bit from the subject which we are debating. But I would like to say very briefly with regard to the point made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), that it is most obviously a point of great seriousness and importance; it is not one of which I have personal knowledge, but I will make it my business to at once inquire into it, as I was asked by the hon. Member to do. I will see what answer can be returned to him and, of course, if
  220
  he is not satisfied with that answer he will be able to raise the matter again in the House. There is only one other thing I have to say. It is this: The hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Bryce) seemed to me to make some remarks and suggestions that were of importance and value, and I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the points which he made, so that they may have immediate attention.
  Mr. PETO: I gave notice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this morning, in writing, that I would raise the question of the support of our minor Allies, and ask whether, in future, they were to be left to public charity, or whether their position was to be dealt with as a national question?
  Mr. ACLAND: I should assume, from the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not refer to that matter in his speech, that is an indication he thought it better not to refer to it.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, "That this House, having heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on 15th February, approves generally of the arrangements made by him with the Finance Ministers of France and Russia."

SUPPLY [16TH FEBRUARY].—REPORT.

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1915–16.
  Resolution reported,
  1."That 250,000 officers, seamen, and boys, Coastguard, and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea and Coastguard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Colonel YATE: I wish to express my regret that the Secretary for the Admiralty has not been able to give us any information regarding the intention of the Admiralty in furtherance of the construction of the proposed Forth and Clyde Ship Canal—
  Mr. SPEAKER: This is a Motion that 250,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1916. The point which the hon. and gallant Member desires to raise is not relevant to that.
  Colonel YATE: The point was raised on a former occasion when I asked a question to which the right hon. Gentleman was not able to give an answer, and I had hoped he would give me one now.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot raise the point now. This is a different Motion.
  Mr. HOGGE: If the point I desire to raise is in order, it will take but a very short time to explain it. A question was addressed to the Secretary of the Admiralty the other day with regard to the methods of recruiting for the Navy, and I suggested that in Edinburgh—which is now the heart of naval activity and enterprise—the recruiting station is situated in a street which is not accessible to the general public, and where the advantages of joining the Navy cannot be adequately displayed to the public. I am perfectly certain, in view of the fact that there is great activity in the city, it would pay the Admiralty to make further efforts to advertise the Navy in a better manner. It has been suggested that Princes Street would be a better place for the recruiting office, and I hope the Government will be able to fall in with the local desires in that respect.
  Mr. BOOTH: I want to refer to a matter also affecting recruiting for the Navy, and that is the uncertainty that exists in the minds of some men whether their life policies will carry, without any extra premium, when they join the Regular Forces. I think this opportunity should be taken by the Admiralty to point out the concession made under that head. I find in an answer which the Secretary to the Admiralty gave to the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) he seemed to be under the impression that there had not been as many concessions on this point as is really the case. I should like to read to the House a short letter which was sent to the right hon. Gentleman on this point on the 5th October. It is as follows:—
  "ASSOCIATION OF INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE COMPANIES AND COLLECTING FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.
  High Holborn, W.C.,
  October 5th, 1914.
  Dear Sir,—Your letter of the 2nd instant addressed to the Secretary of the Pearl Assurance Company regarding the case of Corporal C. C. Morgan has been handed to me.
  In reply to your letter generally I should like to say that at the meeting of this Association (of which you will observe the Pearl Assurance Company are members) held on the 16th ultimo, as to the result of a report submitted by the actuaries of several of the offices in the Association, who had been giving the subject their consideration for the previous two or three weeks, it
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  was decided that for the present all claims—ordinary and industrial—in respect of the Regular Forces be honoured in full without any abatement or without any surcharge in respect of an extra premium; and further, that no extra premium be imposed or any abatement made in the sum assured in respect of Territorials, new levies, etc., for this War only. These recommendations apply only to policies effected up to and including the 4th August, 1914. With regard to new contracts, the tariffs recommended by the Life Offices Association were adopted.
  I have no doubt you will be interested to learn the foregoing decision of this Association, which I trust will afford you considerable pleasure and satisfaction.
  Yours truly,
  F. D. BOWLES, F.S., Hon. Sec."
  That letter was sent to the Admiralty as well as to the War Office. It elicited only a formal acknowledgment from the Admiralty. I am afraid they did not give that attention to it which the document deserved, and which the War Office gave to it. I do not know whether I am in order in referring to the answer from the War Office—I am only doing it by way of contrast—but the War Office concluded their acknowledgment by saying:—
  "The Council propose to make known this decision to the Army generally, and are sure that it will be received with the greatest satisfaction by all concerned"
  I suggest that the Admiralty might have taken the same course. I do not know that they have not, and I should like some assurance from the Secretary to the Admiralty, if he takes the same favourable view, that pains will be taken to circulate the information among the men generally.
  6.0 P.M.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) that the recruiting station at Edinburgh is not in a suitable place, I have to say that the present office has been used for a good many years for the purposes of recruiting, and we are quite satisfied with the recruiting which has been carried on. We are of opinion, if we desire to spend more money in this matter, our best policy would be to devote it to newspaper advertisements and posters rather than paying increased rental. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Pontefract, I am familiar with the facts, as I was a party, with officials from the War Office, to the negotiations which ultimately led to these concessions. I have paid, I hope, a tribute to the assurance companies for what they have done. When I replied to my hon. Friend the other day there was an unexplored part of the matter still remaining to be dealt with. It was a question whether something could not also be done for the mercantile marine. That point had been put to me by the hon.

  223
  Member for Devizes, and it had not been taken up in the communications between the companies and ourselves. I thought it was a point which we might consider, and I still think so. But I am very mindful of what the assurance companies have done, and if the hon. Member thinks that the tribute I have paid to them is not sufficient, I hope he will now accept my assurance that we fully appreciate the concession.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution, reported,
  2. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Wages, etc., to Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coastguard, and Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916."
  Resolution agreed to.

  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Ordered, That the Resolution which upon the 18th day of this instant February was reported from the Committee of Supply, and which was then agreed to by the House, be now road—
  "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 3,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916."
  Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide during twelve months for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army; and that Mr. Tennant, Mr. Churchill, Mr. Harold Baker, and Dr. Macnamara do prepare and bring it in.
  Bill presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time tomorrow (Wednesday), and to be printed. [Bill 33.]

SUPPLY [18TH FEBRUARY].—REPORT.

  NAVY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1914–15.
  Resolution reported,
  "That an additional number, not exceeding 32,000 Officers, Seamen, and Boys, be employed for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, beyond the number already voted for the year."
  Resolution agreed to.

SUPPLY.
Considered in Committee.
CIVIL SERVICE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

LABOUR EXCHANGES AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.—Class VII.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £91,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, for the Salaries of the Staff and other Expenses of Labour Exchanges, including the Contribution to the Unemployment Insurance Fund and Repayments to Associations pursuant to Sections 85 and 106 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, and certain additional Repayments to Associations."
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): I propose to ask the Committee for leave to withdraw this Motion, and on that account I will briefly explain the whole of the circumstances. The Committee will remember that when the Estimate came up I admitted that there had been considerable doubts as to what was the correct form in which it should be put forward. There was a certain amount of irregularity about it, and in strict fact the theoretically correct form of the Estimate would be its inclusion under the Vote of Credit. It is really an Emergency Grant made by the Cabinet on special representations, and it is under the Vote of Credit that the money is payable. What would have been the effect of treating it in that strictly correct form at the outset? It would have been that this payment would have gone into the Appropriation Act, and in that way it would have escaped the notice of the House. It would not have come before the Public Accounts Committee until 1916, and by that time the information which the House might very naturally have expected would be practically useless. The course that was taken of putting it forward in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Estimate had the effect of securing full publicity and of giving the House a means of discussing all the details. The choice was between theoretic irregularity with publicity or regularity without it I believe the Committee will not regret, in the circumstances, the course which gave it the means of raising and discussing the whole

225
question. The hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) did, in fact, call in question the payment as well as the form in which it appeared. I will only repeat what I stated to the Committee before, that this was a Grant made in respect of the peculiar and very exceptional distress experienced in one or two trades, the cotton trade being the chief, while other trades were in very good employment. That distress is happily decreasing, but it has certainly not yet disappeared from the cotton trade. It was considered that the best way to relieve that kind of distress was to use the machinery of the unemployment part of the Insurance Act. It was because the money was paid in connection with the machinery of the unemployment part of the Insurance Act, and because the machinery of the Department was used and the Grants were, so to speak, tacked on to the Insurance Grant, that, the Vote was put forward in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Estimate. There being no statutory authority in the unemployment part of the Insurance Act, the Estimate, as I have stated, was really irregular. Authority for the payment will be regularised by putting it into the Vote of Credit which was so drawn as to cover such Grants from the Government, and in that way it will be put upon a thoroughly constitutional basis. I would formally move that the Vote be withdrawn.
Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY rose—
The CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Baronet wishes to speak, the Motion for the withdrawal had bettor be made later.
Sir F. BANBURY: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his explanation. I think he is quite right in moving to withdraw this particular Estimate. I am not quite sure that he is right in saying that it can properly and regularly be brought in under the Vote of Credit. On that I will not commit myself, except to remind the hon. Gentleman that Erskine May says that a Vote of Credit is only to be used in a case of great emergency or where the sum involved is of such magnitude, or of such an indefinite character that it cannot be dealt with in other ways. I do not consider that this sum comes under cither of those categories. It is not of enormous magnitude, and it is not of an indefinite character. It has a very-definite character. I would further
226
remind the hon. Gentleman that the President of the Board of Education old us that it would be necessary to have legislation to authorise this expenditure, and that the Government did intend at an early date to bring in a Bill to regularise it. I now understand that is not going to be done. The hon. Gentleman has rather thrown over the President of the Board of Education, who was called in to lead the Committee when they were in considerable doubt as to what ought to be done.
Mr. ROBERTSON: I would remind the hon. Baronet that I myself alluded to the introduction of a Bill, if necessary. It has been decided that the Bill is not necessary. That being so, it was not thought necessary to burden the House with the Bill.
Sir F. BANBURY: I remember that the President of the Board of Education did make the statement. I do not know that I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we should be burdening the House if he brought in another Bill. The House has not very much to do, but it is most anxious to do anything in reason that the Government requires. There has been no attempt on either side, certainly not on this side, to do anything, in any kind of way, to prevent a Government Bill, if it is a good and proper Bill, passing. I am afraid the argument of the hon. Gentleman that he cannot bring in the Bill because he would be burdening the House—
Mr. ROBERTSON: I said that if it were unnecessary it would be burdening the House.
Sir F. BANBURY: Is it unnecessary? We have the statement of the President of the Board of Education that the Bill is necessary, and the further statement of the hon. Gentleman himself that he thought it was necessary. He has not given any good reason why he has changed his opinion, except that he does not want to burden the House. In these circumstances, I shall be very glad to assist the hon. Gentleman in withdrawing the Vote, but I must reserve to myself the right of criticising his further action when he proceeds later on to take the necessary steps to get this money. If he will allow mo to give him a little advice, I would advise him to throw himself freely into the hands of the Opposition, who would endeavour

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to do everything they can, so long as things are properly done, to assist him in carrying on the government of the country.
Mr. BOOTH: I do not quite agree that in all circumstances a Bill would be unnecessary. If the Government attempted to persevere with this Vote, in my opinion it would require legislation. By taking it simply under the Vote of Credit as an emergency Vote, instead of in this form, they are hoping to escape the necessity for a new Bill. Some hon. Members present will remember that on the previous occasion the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) were discussing it according to its appearance on the Paper. My own impression was that it was a special Grant to trade unions under the emergency powers, but the discussion proceeded on the assumption that it was part of the ordinary working of the unemployment insurance part of the Insurance Act. I felt it my duty to get up, when the hon. and learned Member was proceeding to develop his point and it was not challenged, and challenge it myself in order to bring out the fact that it was an Emergency Grant, and had nothing to do with the National Insurance Act. Hon. Members then said generally that I was wrong. I stuck to it with my usual modesty. I knew the right hon. Gentleman would be very candid, and he said that I was right, and that the general view of hon. Members was wrong. As a consequence of that the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) moved to report Progress, the Chairman felt bound to take the Motion, and the Government accepted it. What the Government did was this: They had a rebate under the National Insurance Act and they took credit for it to the amount of about £30,000, thereby reducing the Grant to trade unions from £120,000 to £90,000, and in order to take advantage of this surplus they had to do it in this way. I do not agree for a moment that the Treasury put it on the Paper to show how the money had been used. They put it on the Paper in that form in order to get the £30,000 into the account so as to reduce the £120,000 to £90,000.
What will be done under the Vote on Account I do not know. I do not blame the hon. Member in charge of the Vote, because I do not think he was responsible for the form. The thing had been done by
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the Treasury. Whether they intended to avoid discussion in the House I do not know. I am rather chary about giving them credit for giving the House more opportunities of reviewing their work than it ordinarily has, but I hope when they ask us to vote it again that the amount and the deduction under the Insurance Act will be specifically shown, so that the House will see where the £120,000 has gone. I was glad to see one of the latest recruits of the Labour party in the House at the time the discussion was taken. I said it was due to the Committee that some official spokesman on behalf of the trade unions should make an utterance on this point which would benefit the trade unions, but there was none. When it comes up again a straightforward statement by the Government on the one hand, and the trade unions on the other, will be of great benefit. My criticism at the time was that there was an opening for a corrupt Government in the future, unless the whole thing were disclosed to the House. I ventured to point this out even to Members, of the Labour party, because I do not think they would like it if any Government should have it in its power to make-a Grant to a specific trade union in a time of emergency, and then cover it up in some general way, so that the House did not know what was being done. I do not think there will be any trouble if a full disclosure is made of these things. I trust the Government can see their way to do that when it comes before the House again.
Mr. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion. The hon. Baronet is really unjust to the Treasury in being indisposed to credit them with a desire to bring the matter fully before the House. It was the desire of the-Treasury to bring it before the House which was the cause of the Estimate being brought forward in this irregular form which has permitted this full discussion. In reply to the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) I would not pit myself against him or Sir Erskine May as to the Rule on Votes of Credit, but I would remind him that the wording of the Vote of Credit is very full and specific, and that it includes the words "for assisting the food supply, for promoting trade, industry, business, and communications, whether by means of insurance, or indemnity against risk, or otherwise for relief of distress, and generally for all expenses arising out of the existence

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of a state of war. I rather think Sir Erskine May would say that covered the situation.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR HENRY LAYARD'S BEQUEST.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £6,600, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, for salaries and expenses of the National Gallery and of the National Gallery of British Art, Millbank, including a Grant-in-Aid for the purchase of pictures."
Mr. ACLAND: I think the Committee ought to have some explanation why this Supplementary Estimate is asked for. Sir Henry Layard bequeathed a very valuable collection of pictures to the nation. He died in 1894, and the collection passed to the nation recently on the death of Lady Layard. The collection was made by him in Venice, where he lived, in the closing years of his most distinguished life, and there has been a long diplomatic correspondence as to securing that these pictures should be exported from Italy in order to adorn our National Gallery. That correspondence has at last reached a conclusion, and I have to say a word of appreciation of the courtesy of the Italian Government in allowing the pictures to be exported. We can hardly complain under these circumstances that we are asked to pay duty upon them, particularly as the duty is really assessed at a low rate compared with the total value of the pictures, which is very considerable. The collection is a most useful one. It was probably one of the most valuable private collections there were, and it is a great gain to the National Gallery to possess it, particularly as Sir Henry Layard knew the National Gallery very well. He was, I think, one of the trustees, and had every opportunity of studying the points in which the National Gallery was weak, which were particularly the points where he hoped it would be strengthened and enriched by his bequest. We have only just heard that the arrangement for the liberation of the pictures has been completed. We heard of it after the previous Supplementary Estimate for the Gallery which was brought before the House, and it is obviously an advantage to all parties that the matter should be concluded within the current financial year, and therefore I have
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to ask the House to approve of this Supplementary Estimate for the export duty on this valuable collection.
Mr. KING: I think we ought to know the rate of duty. I quite appreciate, and I should like to express that we owe much gratitude to the Italian Government for allowing these pictures to leave the country at all, but I think we might have, at any rate, a statement as to whether this rate was the lowest which might be charged or some further particulars, and also when the pictures will arrive in this country.
Mr. ACLAND: As to the rate, I particularly did not say anything about it, because the amount to be paid is assessed in one lump sum. It is, on any computation of the value of the pictures that we have had, believed to be considerably below the rate of duty ordinarily chargeable. I think we owe our thanks to the Italian Government in that matter as well as in regard to the export of the pictures. In regard to the date at which they are to arrive here, I cannot give any definite information. Shipping is a matter of some difficulty nowadays. I am sure we shall be glad to get them to this country as soon as we can.
Question put, and agreed to.

INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITIONS.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £441 13s. 9d., be granted to His Majesty, to make, good an excess on the Grant for International Exhibitions for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914."
Mr. ACLAND: This is an excess expenditure brought before the House for its approval in accordance with the usual custom. It arises on the year 1913–14 owing to a mistake which was made in one of the Government offices, where mistakes, although they happen very rarely, do happen sometimes. It is the rule that when any Department spends more money on any Vote than has been granted in the Supplementary Estimates for the year, the matter must be brought before the Public Accounts Committee before it can be brought before the House. This matter has accordingly been brought before the Public Accounts Committee, which has reported that it sees no objection to the sum being provided by an excess Vote. I believe they have been into the matter quite carefully and they have pointed out, what the Treasury certainly pointed out with considerable force, that it was very regrettable that mistakes of this kind

231
should be made. It was clearly and simply a mistake, I suppose owing to someone forgetting to charge certain items which had been paid under the proper sub-head. As it has been brought fully before the Public Accounts Committee and they report that they see no objection to the sum being provided, it perhaps may be wise and desirable that the House should accept the Public Accounts Committee's Report on the matter, and therefore approve an Excess Vote, so that it may be included in the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Mr. HOGGE: I think this is extremely serious, because it does not apply all round. I have in my mind at the moment a circumstance which happened to a man who is now serving in the King's Army: £100 was credited to his account through the War Office bankers, out of which he immediately spent £50 in providing instruments for the band of the battalion to which he was attached. The War Office discovered that it had made a mistake, and announced to the bankers that he only ought to have £50 instead of £100, and they refused him the £50 which he spent on the instruments. Here is a Department which does the same kind of thing, and the hon. Gentleman asks us to make good the mistake that his Department has fallen into. I do not see why we should make good to a Department of the State what we refuse to make good to an individual, who is as much entitled to be repaid as the Department.
Mr. ACLAND: There is no question of any payment having been made which was not a right payment to make. It is only a question of its having been made in the wrong year, so to speak. Authority for the spending of it was not obtained in the year for which it should have been obtained. No money has been paid which ought not to have been paid, and therefore there seems to me to be no parallelism with the case which my hon. Friend has mentioned.
Mr. BOOTH: I am sorry the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) is not in his place. I do not think we can accept a doctrine like that. Surely this is unauthorised expenditure. I certainly think the rule is a very healthy one to make each Department stand on its own revenue and expenditure. You may say it was sanctioned in the wrong year, but the expenditure was unauthorised at the time it took place. It is frankly
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owned and it may be allowed to be put right, but let us not admit a principle which is contrary to all the Standing Orders and customs.
Mr. LEIF JONES: As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I may say what really happened in regard to the matter. As I understood the question, it was simply a mistake in the matter of the Estimate. The expenditure has been sanctioned as part of the Grant for the exhibitions, but it was supposed there would be enough money left over from the Ghent Exhibition to pay all that was required under this Vote. It was afterwards found that the surplus estimated for from the exhibition was less than the expenditure, and therefore there was a small excess expenditure, but the whole expenditure made on these exhibitions has been sanctioned by the House, and that was the reason which influenced the Public Accounts Committee to recommend the House to accept this Excess Vote.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday); Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Dewsbury Corporation Bill (by Order),
Liverpool Corporation Bill (by Order),
Rhondda Urban District Council (Tramways Extensions, etc.) Bill (by Order),
Read a second time, and committed.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

RURAL COTTAGES.

  EVICTION OF SOLDIERS' WIVES.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Mr. W. C. ANDERSON: I wish to bring forward a matter which I think of very considerable importance and one that is likely to achieve even greater importance in the future. I refer to the danger of eviction of soldiers' wives owing to the scarcity of rural cottages. I do not want to make this an opportunity for developing any attack against farmers or landowners. I dare say they think they have a responsibility in regard to conditions of

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  rural housing, but we are face to face with an immediate problem, and it would be much more practical, in my opinion, and more advantageous, that we should confine ourselves to the more immediate question. I cannot believe that farmers can take any joy in evicting from their homes the wives and children of men who have now joined the Colours and who are now in some cases fighting in the trenches in France. But there is this economic factor: Undoubtedly in rural districts there is a great lack of cottage accommodation, and the farmer desires a new labourer to take the place of the labourer who has joined the Colours, and so the wife and children remain, perhaps, in the one available cottage, and the farmer's difficulty is this: He may find it almost impossible to get the farm work done unless the new labourer is found housing accommodation, and, in order to do that, he may have to act at the expense of the woman and children of the man who has gone to the front. I wish to bring the general question before the House by reading an extract from the "Daily Chronicle" of Monday, 15th February. Giving a report of the meeting of the Shrewsbury and District Branch of the Farmers' Union, it is stated that—
  "The Farmers' Union on Saturday discussed recruiting and other matters affecting the labour supply. Several farmers asked what they were to do with the wives in cottages on the farms when the husband had joined the Army.
  The President: If the farmer wants the cottage for another workman the wife of the man who has gone to the War must find another house.
  A Member: But can we force these wives to turn out?
  The President: Oh, yes!"
  And in the end it was agreed that legal opinion should be taken as to the powers of the farmers in this matter of ejectment. Perhaps I might bring the matter before the House by citing one or two individual cases that have occurred. I have the case of a wagoner on a farm at Cod-mersham who joined the Army. The farmer applied for an ejectment order. The woman, with seven young children, told the magistrate she could find no other house, and was given twenty-one days in which to clear out. The farmer offered to remove her furniture free of charge, but as the woman had no place to go to, that offer was not of much account. There is the case mentioned in the newspapers of Mrs. Atwood, whose husband is fighting in France. She opened and shut the gates at Goddington Park, the residence of Mr. G. Ashley Dodd, a J.P. and landowner. What was stated in the newspapers was that the lady was not quite satisfied with
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  the way in which the gates were opened and shut. The woman was evicted, her furniture stored in a neighbour's house, and she and the children had to tramp into Ashford.
  A case occurred at Castle Bromwich, in Warwickshire. The wife was of a former-Guardsman who, when the War broke out, re-enlisted in the Dorsets. He was getting 17s. a week as an agricultural labourer. An eviction order was obtained. Ejectment proceedings were also taken against Frederick Tysoe, a labourer, now fighting in France, in respect of a cottage at Havershain. I will read the following report from the "Bucks Standard" of 13th February:—
  "Mrs. Tysoe, a young woman, who wept bi terly, said she had three little children, and her family would be shortly increased. She could not get any Voltage. Where am I to go?' she asked the magistrates pitifully. My husband is now in the trenches.'"
  An order was issued against her and she was ordered to clear out within twenty-eight days. Among the magistrates on the bench were three colonels, and this woman has actually six brothers serving with His Majesty's Forces. I take last of all, the case of a labourer, William West, who took proceedings at Dorchester for wrongful eviction under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act. He had enlisted, and also with him a son nineteen years' old. The mother remained in the house with a daughter of seventeen, a boy of fourteen, a boy of eight, a girl of three, and a baby of fourteen months' old. She was evicted from her home. The husband took proceedings and appeared in court in khaki dress. Counsel for the defendant said, "I quite know that it is a most admirable thing that you are going to fight for us, and of course we appreciate it." The man was not quite satisfied with the appreciation, and he brought the case and was awarded £15 damages, for wrongful eviction, by the County Court.
  Since the War began, special legislation on this matter has been passed by the House of Commons. The Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, appears to vest very wide powers of discretion in the hands of local magistrates, and is intended to serve that end. The trouble is that a good deal of doubt and uncertainty appears to exist among the farmers as to their powers, and much more among the wives of the soldiers who, in many eases, are entirely ignorant of what their legal rights are. Therefore, I think something must be done in that direction; but even if they are able to stand on their legal

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  rights, that does not meet the case. The other economic difficulty remains. It is estimated that in the rural districts there is a shortage of cottages of something like 120,000—if you include those not fit for habitation. At any rate, there ought to be an additional 10 per cent. of cottages built. The problem is becoming all the more acute, because farmers want men to take the place of those who have gone to the front. A remedy would be for the Government to take in hand this question of rural houses. I believe, presently, there will be—and even now there is—available a considerable amount of labour from the building industry, and I think it is for the Government, in conjunction with the local authorities, to see that the problem is tackled and mitigated. That is going to meet the case in the future and not at this minute, and I believe the difficulty is going to become greater as work increases on the farms in the course of the next few months.
  I think the Government should investigate the matter, and that before any woman is evicted from her home, there ought to be the very closest investigation, and that no farmer ought to be allowed to turn out a woman and children merely to suit his own convenience, or because he is not ready to put himself out in some other way. Our responsibility does not rest there if for reasons of getting the farm-work done the woman has to leave the house. The woman is the wife, and the children are the children, of a man fighting with the Colours, and therefore, I submit that another cottage ought to be found for her, that the rent should not be more, and the accommodation not less, than she had, and that there should be free removal from one to the other. That is the very least we can do. We are very proud of the fact that we have held out hospitality to Belgian refugees, and surely we are not going to do less for British women than what we have done for Belgian refugees. These are the main points, and I will say this: That I am quite sure the point will appeal to every Member of this House irrespective of party. It is that, as we have asked men to go and fight for our homes, the least we can do is to see that their dependants are not rendered homeless.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Harry Verney): I think the House will be grateful to the hon. Member in that he
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  has brought before them this very important question. He was good enough to give me notice of the question of one particular case of Mrs. Tysoe. It happens to be in my Constituency, and I have had an opportunity of investigating the case rather carefully. I will first put before the House the particulars of the case which I think is a good one, and then one or two other considerations. The hon. Member has told us that this was the case of a woman with three little girls, one only six. Her husband enlists, goes to France and fights, and while he is away his wife is turned out of a cottage, has nowhere to go, and is left stranded. I think the first impression everyone in this House will feel is that there is something horrible in that state of affairs, and one thinks that it ought not to be possible. Now I will put the other side. You have a patriotic farmer. I venture to suggest to this House that farmers are as patriotic as any other class of the community.
  I will put it in this way, and this is taken from a definite farm which I have investigated. You have a man who is perhaps a milk farmer. He loses his milker at the beginning of the War. I am not at all sure that from his point of view it would not be better to give up milking and take to fattening stock, and perhaps make a large profit. But I believe it is the attitude of the farmer to go on and help to provide the milk supply of this country. It is a very difficult thing to give up milking and afterwards to take it up again, and I venture to think that the fanner who goes on milking in spite of difficulties does a very patriotic duty to his country. With this farmer, a farm of 200 acres, the increase in cost has been nearly 1½d. per gallon. In spite of that, up to within a fortnight ago, the price of milk in London had not been raised, in spite of the increased cost of producing it. The farmer goes on milking and thinks it is his duty to go on. Cows have to be milked and he has no one to do it. I would point out the extreme difficulty of getting labour to-day. He may find a married man at a distance who says he will milk on condition that he gets a house for his wife and family. The farmer's only option is to turn out the wife of the man who has gone to fight and to put in the milker in order that the cows may be milked. That is a particular definite case, but I venture to say that there are one or two general considerations, of which the first and most important would be

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  this: The farmer ought to be very slow to do anything of this kind. It ought to be the very last resort. He ought to try very possible means to get labour and to carry on the work before resorting to the horrible expedient of turning out the wife and children because the husband and father is away at the front; and I suggest it is the duty of the farmer, before he resorts to this last expedient, to consult the local Labour Exchange. I know that there is a feeling of distrust among farmers as to Labour Exchanges. I do not altogether wonder. The Labour Exchanges have not attempted to take up agricultural labour because the agricultural labourer never registers at the Labour Exchange, and farmers therefore have never found any use for it in ordinary circumstances and, I dare say, never will But these are not ordinary circumstances; these are circumstances in which the fanner must have his cows milked and must find labour. He is not able to find labour himself, and I think that the least we can ask him to do is that he should at any rate appeal to the Labour Exchange to find out if it cannot meet his demand in this emergency. I would suggest, for instance, that instead of having turned out the woman with a view to getting a married man into the cottage, the Labour Exchange might have been able to find a single man, who could have lodged somewhere in the village and thus have avoided the necessity of turning out the woman and her children. I would suggest again with regard to milking, why would it not be possible in an emergency of this kind to find a woman who would be willing to milk the cow and lodge in the cottage, without having the wife and family turned out before this last expedient is resorted to?
  It seems to me that it is the duty of the farmer to consult his Labour Exchange to see whether something of the kind cannot be done. Having consulted his Labour Exchange and having failed, and having come to this case, which I think will be rare, which should be rare, and which I believe public opinion will make rare, and having found perhaps one or two cases in which there seems no way of getting any worker on the farm without turning out the women and children from the cottages, I would just mention this consideration, that of course the woman with the three children—take the case which my hon. Friend put before the House—is getting a separation allowance. In this particular
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  case the wages of the man were 16s. and the cottage, and this woman is now getting 20s.; so that she is actually better off by 4s. and does not have the man to feed. In addition there is this consideration with regard to my hon. Friend's suggestion that some help ought to be given in moving. I think that the course which he put before the House of the farmer offering to move the furniture is one which I hope farmers generally will adopt. It is not a great deal to ask a farmer to lend his cart and a man to cart the furniture of the woman from one house to another. The question remains where is the woman to go to? The true remedy is to build houses. But, as my hon. Friend has reminded us, it is not possible to build houses for this immediate emergency. It is the solution for the future. I am hoping this evening to get suggestions. A suggestion of my own was to consult the secretary of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association. It is an extremely well-organised association, and I think I am right in saying since the War began it has a representative in practically every single parish throughout England and Wales. The secretary of the Association assures me that these cases, which he agreed would be extremely rare, are cases which the committee would be likely to view with extreme sympathy and which they would even perhaps be willing to see through in order that the hardship might be lessened as far as possible. But I submit that this is not a case for criticism. This is a case in which advice is wanted. Certainly the Board of Agriculture are anxious for any hints that may help to solve what is going to become, I think, a burning question, and may help us to deal with cases which every Member of the House must regret.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am quite sure that every Member of the House sympathises fully with all the people who have been treated in the way described by the hon. Member (Mr. Anderson). Nobody can complain of the very moderate way in which he stated his case and the fairness with which he looked at the case for the farmers and others. Everyone of us would condemn anyone who took this action without having had resort to every conceivable method of dealing with the situation other than by eviction. I rather deprecate quoting speeches out of newspapers which may not give very accurate accounts. In reference to the Farmers' Union which was mentioned by the hon.

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  Gentleman, I think it a pity to quote from speeches which are described in the newspapers in rather a vague way. I rather thought that the hon. Gentleman accused the president of this particular union of having advised farmers to evict their men. As far as I can see the president was answering what I conceive to be was a legal point, and I hope that no accusation will be made against him of having deliberately advised farmers to take this course.
  Mr. ANDERSON: I did not say that he advised, but that by the tone of his remarks he rather lent encouragement to the idea. He did not urge it, but he rather gave it his sanction.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The gentleman in question, I think, probably did not. I thought that the question which the hon. Gentleman asked a few days ago actually said that he advised them to turn these people out. The difficulty this moment is very considerably increased in country districts because nearly every cottage has been taken for Belgian refugees or various other people. In a case I know of, where eviction has been threatened, but I hope is not being carried out, the farmer certainly took a great deal of trouble to try to find another cottage, and he did succeed in getting a landowner to let him have another cottage for the woman whom he intended to turn out. Unfortunately the woman happens to be suffering from physical disability and the cottage was one with a large number of steps, which was quite unsuitable for her, but that appears to be the only cottage available in the district. The real root of the whole question is the great want of additional cottages in rural districts. I do not want to be controversial, but that is a question which we have tried to bring before the House for a great many years, and in which we were supported by hon. Gentlemen on the other side below the Gangway. I was sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman opposite relegate that solution of the question to some remote future.
  Sir H. VERNEY: Not altogether.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I should be very glad if there was some chance of an attempt being made to begin solving the question now. He was perfectly correct in saying that we could not deal with the immediate distress at this moment, but this distress is likely to become greater as
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  time goes on, and if we are to grow a great deal more wheat in this country and employ more labour the question becomes more urgent and the sooner we begin to solve it the better. The other suggestion I consider to be an excellent one: that is that the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association should take up the matter. I hope that the hon. Member will press that in the proper quarter. His friends the Government are able to exercise a certain amount of influence with the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association, and I would suggest that not only should they take every step to try to find suitable-places for these women to go to if they have to leave, but that they should also-pay for the cost of the removal. I do not see why that should not come under the charges which they can defray. It would not amount to very much. As the right hon. Gentleman said, these people have got the allowance, and they can pay the rent, and practically there is very little but the cost of removal to bear. So I do hope that he will turn his attention, first of all to using his influence with the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association, and next to considering whether it is not possible to make a beginning, even if it is only in a small way, in dealing with the real root of the evil, and that is the need of more cottages in rural districts.
  Mr. DUNCAN: Nobody can take exception to the speeches to which we have listened dealing with this very important and very difficult matter. I went down to speak at a recruiting meeting last Friday. In the neighbourhood in which this meeting was held one of these cases had cropped up. A man came to me before the meeting to ask me to mention this case at the meeting. Obviously to mention a case like this at a recruiting meeting would have a very disastrous effect upon recruiting, and from that point of view I think that every effort should be made to case the situation. Whether it is by the Government undertaking the expense of the removal of these people or asking the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association to get it done, the expense being refunded afterwards, something ought to be done in that direction. With; regard to the use of Labour Exchanges, it should be pretty obvious to those of us who are familiar with industrial wages and conditions that it is going to be a very difficult thing for farmers to obtain labour through the Labour Exchanges at anything like the wages which farmers have

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  been accustomed to give. It is obvious that in circumstances such as exist to-day it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for farmers to fill the positions of these men who have left by getting men to work at the wages of those who have left the service of the farmer to serve in the Army. Therefore, it seems to me that if the farmer can be persuaded to see the thing from a new aspect, and to show some little consideration along that line, there might be less difficulty than there is in the matter.
  I quite agree that there is a considerable amount of difficulty in finding accommodation for whoever the farmer might be able to obtain to perform the labour of men who have joined the Army. But it should be remembered that this House has put a very large number of people in this country to a great deal of trouble by billeting people upon them, and it does seem to me that quite a simple way out of the difficulty might be found if the farmer were to consider that after all the Government have taken power into their hands to billet officers and men upon people who may have a fairly good house, some of whom probably would not care to have persons billeted upon them, yet, and that as thousands of our people are taking officers and men into their homes and giving them every accommodation, surely the fanner might look at the case from that point of view and see whether he could not billet in his own house the labour which he might be able to obtain! Many farmers have pretty large houses, and I do not think it would be a matter of very great difficulty to find some little accommodation in exceptional circumstances like these for any extra labour which he might have to employ, and in this way get over the difficulty and avoid the eviction of these people. The particular union with which I am connected has already had to fight some of these cases in Court. It is distasteful to the union, and I am sure also to the farmers, to do these things, but what can one do in the circumstances? Where a woman is left with a considerable family when her husband has joined the Army, and it is almost impossible to find accommodation for the woman and the family who have been left behind, it seems to me that there might be a little bit more consideration on the part of the farmer in the matter of billeting upon himself the labour which he may be able to obtain. I am sure that that would solve many of the difficulties to which reference has been made.
  Mr. NEVILLE: I would suggest one way of getting over the difficulty which everybody agrees ought to be got over, if it is possible to do so. The difficulty is that there are no labourers' cottages attached to the farm in which to accommodate the new labourers, because the cottages which are at present attached to the farm are already full of labourers. The difficulty, therefore, is to find new cottages. The suggestion is that in proper cases, such as mentioned by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division, facilities should be given for putting up huts. I would ask is there a real case made out that where there is no possibility of finding labour or any accommodation for a woman with five or six children, such as mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, the Board of Agriculture should communicate with the landowner, or whoever he may be, in charge of the land, with the object of putting up such huts.
  Sir H. VERNEY: We thought of this expedient, but the difficulty is where are we to get the labour to put up the houses?
  Mr. NEVILLE: There will probably be a certain amount of labour in a considerable country side; carpenters and brick-layers are not employed, and there is very little building.
  Sir H. VERNEY: There are no unemployed, practically, for this work.
  Mr. NEVILLE: In my part of the country there are a great many who are not employed, and as there is very little building going on they would be glad to have the chance of such work. Another point to which I desire to call attention is, that a great many of the building by-laws at the present time make it extremely difficult and expensive to put up cottages. Speaking as a small landowner myself, I should be rejoiced to be able to put up new cottages if only the financial part of it could be managed on reasonable, terms. Other landlords are in the same position, and we do not want any profit. Speaking for myself, I want no profit. I think very little would be required for putting proper houses on the land, and I am sure that every facility would be given by landowners for doing that. The by-laws are very stringent in many places, and they add largely to the cost of erecting suitable cottages in rural districts. I would suggest that during the emergency with which we are now face to face, those by-laws might be relaxed, so that we might be able to import from Norway or elsewhere

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  ready-made cottages for a comparatively small sum, £50 or £60, and for that price you would get a wooden house, better made than any that could be put up for £150 or £155. With the relaxation of these stringent by-laws fairer accommodation could be provided in the rural districts. It is a business which will have to be tackled, and ought to be tackled, even if there were no war at all. As to billeting, I do not think there is any possibility of it. The difficulty has always been—certainly
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  in my part of the country—that they have not got the cottages, and that the cottages which do exist are too small to afford accommodation for billeting; in fact, I do not understand how you could possibly have billeting in most of the rural districts. One way to deal with this question is to make it easy to put up fresh accommodation, and most landlords will be only too glad to give facilities.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Five minutes after Seven o'clock.

WAR.
  ULSTER DIVISION (CATHOLICS).
  ULSTER DIVISION (CATHOLICS).
  LICENSED PREMISES (HOURS OF SALE—IRELAND).
  LICENSED PREMISES (HOURS OF SALE—IRELAND).
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  National Penny Bank, Limited.
  National Penny Bank, Limited.
  School Accommodation (Dolgelley).
  School Accommodation (Dolgelley).

Preamble
Appeal Committee—First Report from; read [at last Friday's Judicial Sitting] and agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Frimley and Farnborough District Water [H.L.]

Mersey Railway [H.L.]

Prescot Gas [H.L.]

Yorkshire Electric Power [H.L.]

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
Aberdare Urban District Council (Tramways, &c.) Bill [H.L.]
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board Bill [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with and the Bills allowed to proceed:
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
Halifax Corporation Bill [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with and the Bill allowed to proceed, provided that Tramways Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, and 21 be struck out of the Bill:
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill
ought to be dispensed with provided that Tramways Nos. 3 and 3A be struck out of the Bill:
And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
River Glen Improvement Bill
ought not to be dispensed with:
Read, and agreed to.

DENNY'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill intituled an Act to dissolve the marriage of Phyllis Denny of Claverdon Hall, in the County of Warwick, with Gerald Henry Maynard Denny her husband, and to enable her to marry again, and for other purposes: Presented (on Petition), and a copy of the proceedings in and of the decree of the King's Bench, Matrimonial Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland: Delivered (on Oath): Bill read 1a, and to be read 2a on Tuesday the 9th day of March next: The usual Orders made.

DEAF AND DUMB POOR ASYLUM BILL. [H.L.]
PLYMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reports from His Majesty's Attorney General received and ordered to lie on the Table.

ALTRINCHAM GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.
FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

MERSEY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
NEATH CANAL NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.

PRESCOT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

ILFRACOMBE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.

NORTHWICH GAS BILL. [H.L.]
ORMSKIRK GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a and committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

SPENNYMOOR AND TUDHOE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.

SUTTON DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
WARWICK GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed,: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.
DEAF AND DUMB POOR ASYLUM BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed.

PLYMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
ASHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
EASTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) JOINT SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
ROTHERHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS) BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH SHIELDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION (WEAR MOUTH BRIDGE) BILL. [H.L.]
WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

BRISTOL TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a on Wednesday the 10 th of March next.
ABERDEEN CORPORATION ORDER CON FIRMATION BILL.
To be read 3a To-morrow.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Second Report of the Select Committee considered (according to Order).
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be adopted. The Report sets out very fully the matter in discussion [the placing of the House of Lords Refreshment Department under the management of a Select Committee], and unless your Lordships desire me to do so I do not propose to elaborate it.
Moved, That the Report be adopted.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUSPENSORY ACT, 1914, AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a on Tuesday next.
House adjourned at twenty-fire minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.