Sitting of 9 September 1914

Preamble
The House, reassembling after the Adjournment on Monday, 31st August, met at a Quarter before Three o'clock.
The CLERK AT THE TABLE: (Sir Courtenay Ilbert) informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker from this day's sitting.
Whereupon Mr. WHITLEY, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table and. after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy-Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

BISHOPRICS ACT, 1878, AND BISHOPRICS OF SHEFFIELD, CHELMSFORD, AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SUFFOLK ACT, 1913.
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 1st. September, 1914, with respect to the Bishopric of Sheffield and the Contiguous Dioceses of York, Southwell, and Wakefield [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
EXTRADITION ACTS. 1870 TO 1906.
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 1st September, 1914, giving effect to the Additional Protocol to the Extradition Treaty of 1885 with Guatemala [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 1st September, 1914, made by the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, established under the National Insurance Act, 1911, the application of the Transfer Value of a Married Woman electing not to become a Voluntary Contributor [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 465.]
PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT. 1899.
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 7th August; Mr. Mckinnon Wood]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 466.]
EAST INDIA (EXCISE).
Copy presented of Correspondence regarding Indian Excise Administration. Vol. II. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
Copy presented of Annual Report of the Horticultural Branch. Proceedings under the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907, and Section 2, Sub-section (3), of the Board of Agriculture Act, 1869, for the year 1913–14 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
Copy presented of Return of Advances made under the Irish Land Purchase Acts during the month of February, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ARMY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE), 1914–15.
Estimate presented of the Additional Numbers of Men required in the year ending 31st March, 1915 in consequence of the War in Europe [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 464.]
WAR IN EUROPE.

  PRIZE MONEY (NAVY).
  Mr. HUNTasked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that prize money for the men in the Navy has been done away with, he can say in what way the wives of sailors during the War will have made up to them the same weekly allowance as is now allowed to soldiers both on and off the married strength?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): I cannot accept the suggestion of the hon. Member that the new Regulations as to prize money will be disadvantageous to the men of the Navy. As a matter of fact, the proposed change aims at benefiting

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  a larger number of men than the old system under which only those who shared in captures received any of the proceeds. The question of granting a separation allowance to the wives of seamen is under consideration.
  Mr. HUNT: Will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement to the effect that the wives and families of sailors will not be allowed to suffer?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I have just said that the question of granting separation allowances to the wives of seamen is under consideration.
  Mr. HUNT: Will the right hon. Gentleman state that the Government will see that the wives and families of sailors fighting for their country will not suffer from want? Is he aware that considerations on this point are one of the difficulties in the way of recruiting?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: When the House last met I went in very close detail into the exact position of the matter. It is being very carefully considered, and the House will not expect me to carry it any further now.

  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether foot-and-mouth disease is spreading in England; and whether any steps are being taken, by disinfection of clothing or otherwise, to prevent, the disease being disseminated by German prisoners?
  Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked if there are any outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in England since the outbreak at Grimsby; and, if so, the number of animals infected, slaughtered, and in contact?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD Of AGRICULTURE (Sir Harry Verney): Since the original outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Stallingborough on 2Sth August, ten further outbreaks have been confirmed, all within the district originally scheduled. One hundred and five cows. 118 other cattle, 196 sheep, 178 swine, and four goats
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  have been or are being slaughtered as affected or as having been exposed to infection. With regard to the second part of the question of the hon. Member for Wilton, the Board have consulted with the medical authorities at the War Office, and are satisfied that the arrangements made for the detention of German prisoners will be such as to preclude any possibility of their contact with farm stock. Apparatus for disinfecting clothing will, however, be available if required.
  Mr. BATHURST: When did the last outbreak of the disease occur?
  Sir H. VERNEY: On Sunday.
  Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he will appoint the Committee promised by the ex-President of the Department to report on future arrangements between England and Ireland when foot-and-mouth disease breaks out; and, if so, whether he will, as requested, confer with the Irish representatives as to terms of reference, etc.?
  Sir H. VERNEY: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to him on the 31st ult., to which at present I have nething to add.
  G. Mr. FLAVINasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to make a definite statement removing the restrictions on Irish stock imported into Great Britain?
  Sir H. VERNEY: The Board issued an Order on the 7th inst., which has already come into operation, restoring the normal conditions with regard to the landing of animals from Ireland in Great Britain.

  CHEESE SUPPLY.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked whether anything has been or is being done under existing circumstances, and in view of possible prospective requirements, to induce milk producers to convert their surplus milk into cheese of varieties such as Cheddar. Cheshire, or Gloucester, which can be kept for a long period without deterioration or loss of their nutrient qualities?
  Sir H. VERNEY: On the advice of the Agricultural Consultative Committee, a Press notice has been issued on this subject, and I am sending a copy to the hon. Member.

  EMERGENCY ACTS.
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will arrange for copies of the various emergency Acts which have been passed since the outbreak of war to be issued to Members as soon as possible?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu): All the emergency Acts passed have been printed, and can be obtained on application at the Vote Office

  WHEAT SUPPLY.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the Government deciding to provide, by legislation or otherwise, some financial inducement to farmers to retain upon their premises their stocks of wheat now being harvested, or sow this autumn a larger area than usual of their land with cereals, he will, without delay, make a public announcement to the above effect in order to avoid the premature marketing of this year's grain and to encourage the early sowing of grain for next year's harvest and the immediate preparation of the land for such purpose'
  Mr. CHARLES LEACHasked the Home Secretary what steps are being taken to secure a larger crop of grain during the War?
  Mr. HUNTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that on account of the War the wheat crop of the world must be short next year, he could give the fanners of the United Kingdom a guarantee that for all wheat suitable for making bread, reaped next year and sold in the United Kingdom after next year's harvest, the Government would, if necessary, make the price up to 35s. a quarter; and is he aware that the matter is urgent on account of the necessary preparation of the land?
  Sir H. VERNEY: The Prime Minister has asked me to answer these questions. The retention of this year's wheat crop in stack until next summer would admittedly result in loss, through vermin and other causes, of a large percentage of the grain, besides depriving farmers of the use of the straw, and I am glad to be able to announce that the Government, after minute examination of the position, are satisfied that there is no necessity for them to take any action of the kind suggested in the first part of the question put by the hon. Member for Wilton. With regard to next year's cereal crop, the Government have carefully considered all the available information; it is a highly technical question, and, after consulting expert opinion, they have arrived at the conclusion that they would not be justified in holding out a financial inducement to farmers to increase their acreage of cereals. At the same time the Board adhere to the advice which they issued to farmers recently, with the concurrence of the Consultative Committee, that wheat appears likely to be a profitable crop next year.
  Mr. HUNT: Is the hon. Baronet aware that by adopting the suggestion made in my question the amount of wheat produced in the United Kingdom next year would be more than doubled; and is he aware that farmers all over the country are anxious that this should be done?
  Sir H. VERNEY: The hon. Member will realise that all these matters have been taken into consideration. The question of how much more wheat would be grown is a matter of opinion.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Is the hon. Baronet aware that, owing to the trampling by troops and the destruction of crops by the field armies in central Europe, there will be an enormous demand for outside supplies on the part of those countries next year which will result in a large proportion of the food which England gets from overseas being deflected? Has that fact been taken into consideration?
  Sir H. VERNEY: That also has been taken into consideration.

  BRITISH SHIPS IN ENEMY PORTS.
  Mr. HENRY TERRELLasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to take such steps as may be necessary to provide for the indemnity of shipowners and merchants owning ships and cargoes which were in enemy ports at the date of the declaration of War and which have been seized by the German Government out of the proceeds of the sale of German ships and cargoes which were in British ports at the same date and have been seized by the British Government?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD Of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The question whether any relief or assistance, apart from the Government insurance scheme, can be given to the owners of ships and cargoes which are detained in enemy ports, will be considered; but, as at present advised, I am somewhat doubtful whether anything can be done in the way suggested by the hon. Gentleman.

  WIRELESS NEWS (BERLIN).
  Mr. HUNTasked the Prime Minister why it is that the Marconi wireless operators are allowed to publish Berlin news which is recabled all over the world as coming from London?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): I am informed that the news in question is sent from Germany to wireless stations in all parts of the world. Any attempt, therefore, to prevent its publication in London, with a view to its not reaching other countries, would be useless. As regards recabling this news as originally emanating from London, I understand that if such messages are presented for re-transmission, either by wireless or by cable, they are stopped, but that, in fact, few attempts have been made to re-transmit them.
  Mr. HUNT: Is it not the fact that this news from abroad goes as from this country?
  Mr. McKENNA: In regard to news falsely sent from abroad as coming from
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  this country the hon. Member will see that it is impossible to prevent news which originates from abroad.

  EX-OFFICERS OVER FORTY-FIVE.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether opportunity is being, or will be, given to ex-officers over forty-five, or ex-soldiers over thirty-five, to join a military unit?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for WAR (Mr. H. J. Tennant): Ex-officers over forty-five are being appointed in cases where officers commanding ask for them. Ex-soldiers are accepted up to the age of forty-five, and, in certain cases, up to the age of fifty.

  RECRUITING.

    ENLISTMENT IN RURAL AREAS.
    Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Under-Secretary for War whether he realises the difficulty in the rural areas of persuading able-bodied men to join the new Army while no military duties are being assigned to their companions or fellow workers who are Reservists; and whether all the latter can now have some military duty assigned to them and thus facilitate recruiting?
    Mr. TENNANT: All Reservists, except a few who were found medically unfit, and some who had to be retained in their civil employment to avoid delay in the completion of important naval and military contracts for munitions of war, are now doing military duty.
    Mr. BATHURST: Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman includes members of the National Reserve?
    Mr. TENNANT: This is not dealing with the National Reserve.
    Mr. BATHURST: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is going to happen to the National Reserve?
    Mr. TENNANT: I have already explained that in this House, and I will send the hon. Gentleman a memorandum of

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    what has been done. A large number of the National Reserve have already been called up.

  PUBLICITY ARRANGEMENTS.
  Mr. HAMERSLEY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether ho is aware that in a number of districts throughout Great Britain no organisation exists for encouraging recruiting by publication and bill posting; and whether, in view of the most excellent work done throughout the London area by the Publicity Department under the control of the chief recruiting officer, he will take steps to extend the authority of that Department to cover the whole of Great Britain, so that the numerous applications which are being made for information, in the shape of printed matter, can be supplied without loss of time?
  Mr. TENNANT: There is no district in the United Kingdom which does not form part of a definite recruiting area, and the recruiting officer responsible for such area has authority to take all measures he considers necessary for circulating printed matter and for giving publicity in other ways to recruiting requirements within his area.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have a number of questions of which private notice has been given, and I propose to call them in alphabetical order.

  ASSISTANCE TO TRADERS.
  Mr. ALLEN BAKERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to whether or not it is possible for the Government to assist export traders either to obtain money due to them from continental or other countries, or to secure fresh working capital—essential not merely to the conduct of their business but to the carrying on of the export trade of the country—until debts can be collected abroad?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): As regards the first part of the question the matter is still receiving the very careful attention of the Government, and I hope to be in a position to reply before the House rises. As regards the second part I think the Government have already, by their recent arrangements, given considerable assistance to traders.

  BELGIAN REFUGEES IN UNIDED KINGDOM.

    STATE HOSPITALITY.
    Mr. BARNESasked the Prime Minister if the Government has yet any information as to the number of Belgian refugees in this country, and if the Government has yet considered the question of making a Grant from which to relieve them?
    The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Herbert Samuel): I have been requested to reply to this question. As many of those who have come to this country from the seat of war have means of their own and travel as ordinary passengers, it is not possible to state the number of refugees. The War Refugees Committee and the Local Government Board have been in touch with some 3,600 persons coming from Belgium, for all of whom temporary accommodation, and for some more permanent hospitality, has been found. In addition, a very large number have been met at the railway stations. There are, however, some thousands of persons in Belgium, from the towns of Louvain, Malines, Liege, and elsewhere, whose homes have been destroyed and for whom the Belgian Government, on account of military exigencies, are unable to provide.
    In answer to inquiries from the Belgian Government, His Majesty's Government have offered to these victims of the War the hospitality of the British nation. Arrangements have been made for their transport and for their temporary accommodation at hostels in London. The War Refugees Committee, who have rendered very valuable service hitherto, have consented to co-operate with my Department in their reception and distribution. A large number of offers of private hospitality have already been received by them. I am now communicating with some of the Local Representative Committees for the Prevention and Relief of Distress, situated in places where distress has not yet appeared and seems improbable, asking each to arrange for temporary hospitality for a small number of these refugees. The Government trust that many individuals throughout the country will be ready to join in offering an asylum here until conditions in Belgium enable the refugees to return.

  PROVISION FOR CRIPPLED SOLDIERS AND WIDOWS.
  Mr. BARNESasked the Prime Minister if the Government has considered the question of making adequate provision for those crippled, or for the widows of those killed at the front, say, on the basis of the Compensation Act, and if he is in a position to make a statement?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): These cases will be properly provided for, but certain aspects of the matter are still under consideration, and I cannot yet make a statement on the subject.
  Major DALRYMPLE WHITE: Will these cases be dealt with entirely on the basis of present and former Government Grants, aided by any Grants from the Patriotic Fund, though I understand that it has not very large sums at its disposal?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would rather defer making a statement.
  Mr. BARNES: Will the Prime Minister be able to make a statement previous to the next Adjournment?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Yes.

  VALUATIOX DEPARTMENT (RECRUITS).
  Mr. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Chief Valuer of the Lands Valuation Department has sent a notice to the members of the staff of that Department saying that if any of them volunteer for service in the War they will be dismissed and will not be reinstated; and whether, in view of the different action of many private employers, he will give orders that this notice be cancelled, and that any members of the staff who enlist shall be reinstated on their return?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As already stated by me, in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Dulwich on 10th August, members of the Valuation staff who enlist, will be reinstated or otherwise provided for on their return. Permission to enlist is being given to the full extent possible without detriment to the public service.
  Mr. GRETTON: May I state that two cases have reached me bearing out the question put by the hon. Member for York. Will he make inquiries?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I shall certainly make inquiries if the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars.

  OFFICIAL NEWS.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLESasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet completed the arrangements which he promised on the 31st alt. for giving the public prompt information of what has happened at the front; whether the interesting survey of military operations issued from the Press Bureau and published on Monday, after ten days' silence—days in which our troops were constantly engaged in a death struggle with the enemy—is not wholly inadequate; and whether, having regard to the enormous relief brought by such messages to millions of anxious people at home, he will take what measures are necessary to furnish fuller and more frequent information to the British public?
  Mr. McKENNA: Perhaps I may be allowed to state that, at the wish of the Cabinet, I have accepted responsibility for the work of the Bureau. All information is being made public which can be given to the Press consistently with the need for secrecy as to the dispositions of the Allied Forces in the field. Additional officers have been appointed to Sir John French's Staff with the object of securing full and prompt accounts of the operations for publication here.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLESasked the Prime Minister whether it is the fact that the cable Censors held up for four days the momentous speeches of the Foreign Secretary and of the Prime Minister on 3rd August and 6th August, and whether the Prime Minister's Guildhall speech was similarly treated; and whether he will see that the censorship of Press telegrams to our Overseas Dominions is relaxed and intelligently administered?
  Mr. McKENNA: My attention has been called to complaints on this subject. The whole of the arrangements for the censorship of Press messages passing over the

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  cables have been reorganised within the last week, and I hope that there will be no further cause for complaint. I may add that the Prime Minister's speech on last Friday was not similarly treated.
  Sir HENRY NORMANasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that information passed for publication by the Press Bureau and printed in the London newspapers is being largely cut down or refused transmission by the censors at the offices of the American cable companies; and whether, in view of the importance of full and accurate news reaching the United States and Canada, he will take steps to enable the correspondents of the American Press to transmit freely news passed for British publication by the Press Bureau?
  Mr. McKENNA: Steps have been taken in the recent reorganisation of the cable censorship work to expedite the provision for promoting the transmission to America and the Dominions Overseas of news that has been passed by the Press Bureau for publication in this country.
  Sir H. NORMAN: Does my right hon. Friend refer to the publication of the Memorandum of the Press Bureau, No. D26; and, if so, can he tell me if anywhere in that Memorandum there is anything suggested that what has been passed by the Press Bureau should not be freely transmitted to the United States and Canada—I have a copy in my hand?
  Mr. McKENNA: I have not read the document to which my hon. Friend refers, but I can assure him that what has been passed here will, in ordinary circumstances, be considered to have passed for the whole of the world.
  Sir J. D. REESasked whether the Government proposes to take any steps to supply neutral countries with official news, to expedite British censorship, and to counteract the effect of interested or inaccurate information published by German official agencies?
  Mr. McKENNAI regret I have not received the notice of the hon. Gentleman.
  Sir J. D. REES: I will repeat the question?
  Mr. McKENNA: Perhaps the hon. Member will put it down for to-morrow.

  TERRITORIAL FORCE.

    LIFE INSURANCES.
    Lord ROBERT CECILasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government have come to any decision with regard to life insurances on soldiers and sailors?
    Mr. TENNANT: There are still some open points in connection with this matter, but I am glad to be able to announce that the Life Offices Association has now decided to recommend to life assurance companies that no members of the Territorial Force who were insured prior to the outbreak of War should be required to pay any additional premiums as a result of their proceeding on active service abroad. I think the House will be gratified to learn of this action of the association.
    Lord ROBERT CECIL: Has any conclusion been arrived at in respect of soldiers and sailors in the Regular Forces?
    Mr. TENNANT: That is still under consideration. I cannot give an answer just now.
    Mr. F. HALL: Will those who have had to pay the additional premiums have them refunded?
    Mr. TENNANT: I imagine so.
    Mr. F. HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into that?
    Mr. TENNANT: Yes.

  INNKEEPER'S REFUSAL TO SUPPLY FOOD.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a Suffolk innkeeper the other day refused to supply a Territorial officer, stationed in the neighbourhood, with breakfast and luncheon, notwithstanding that payment was tendered, and will he say whether the innkeeper was within his rights in so doing?
  Mr. TENNANT: I have no knowledge of this incident. The hon. Gentleman gave me notice of his question only an hour or so ago. If he will supply full particulars I will have inquiry made, and let him have an answer later.

  ARMY COMMISSIONS.
  Mr. NEWMANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, by a recent Order, non-commissioned officers and men now serving in the Territorial Forces are declared ineligible for temporary commissions in the Regular Army, even though they are already in possession of the certificates necessary to obtain a commission; and whether, in view of the fact that commissions are being granted without previous military knowledge or training, the War Office will rescind the Order in question?
  Mr. TENNANT: It is not at present considered desirable that non-commissioned officers and men of the Territorial Force should be taken to supply the Regular Army with officers.

  ALIEN ENEMIES.

    STATEMENT BY HOME SECRETARY.
    Mr. KINGasked the Secretary for the Home Department whether he is aware that certain alien enemies in this country have obtained offers of work abroad in neutral countries or on neutral ships sailing from foreign ports; and whether he will facilitate the issue of permits to depart to such aliens as can give satisfactory proofs of being in this position, seeing that otherwise they must remain here to be a burden on this country either in workhouses or concentration camps?
    Mr. McKENNA: I can assure my hon. Friend that all good reasons which an alien enemy may advance when he applies for a permit to leave the United Kingdom will be carefully considered, special regard always being had to the interests of this country.
    Mr. F. HALLasked the Home Secretary the total number of naturalised and registered Germans and Austrians in this country whether there is reason to believe that there is a considerable number of alien enemies resident here who still remain unregistered; and if, in view of the great assistance rendered to Germany in her campaign in Belgium and France by the co-operation of German agents and spies resident, and in some cases naturalised, in those countries, it
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    would be possible to adopt a more complete system of protection against the dangers presented by the continued existence here of large numbers of Germans and Austrians who are still free to communicate in various ways with their Governments, and to take steps which would facilitate aggressive action against this country?
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Home Secretary how many alien enemies have been registered up to date, and what proportion he is advised are still unregistered; and whether, having regard to the widespread feeling of alarm regarding the presence of German spies in our midst, he will appoint a small, but strong, non-party Committee to advise him as to the best steps to take to secure the safety of the country in this respect?
    Mr. McKENNA: A Subcommittee was appointed by the Committee of Imperial Defence as long ago as March, 1910, to consider the whole question of the treatment of aliens in time of war. After a close investigation of the question, the Sub-committee made a Report, the proposals of which were confirmed by a full meeting of the Committee, and this Report has been adopted by the Government in all its details and formed the basis of the Order in Council made under the Aliens Restriction Act which was passed by this House on the 5th of August. The steps thus taken have been reviewed and approved by the Government, and are considered proper and sufficient by the naval and military authorities.
    I will read to the House a report which I have just received from the Commissioner of Police:—
    "Since the declaration of war the police, who have been strengthened for the purpose, have thoroughly investigated all cases where they had reason to suspect espionage, as well as some 8,000 or 9,000 reported to them by members of the public. Searches have been made, and all documents found have been scrutinised. As a result, in about ninety eases only was the suspicion of espionage sufficiently strong to warrant detention.
    As a result of these inquiries and of the examination of thousands of documents, it may be affirmed that not a

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    tittle of evidence has been obtained indicating any combination amongst alien enemies to commit acts hostile to this country, or of any kind of military organisation among them. The police, who have special opportunities for gauging the feeling among alien enemies, are satisfied that no organisation exists amongst them for carrying out hostile acts.
    There is evidence of organised espionage before the War, and individuals are credibly suspected of a desire to communicate information to Germany. Such persons are invariably arrested and relegated to military custody. About 1,600 alien enemies have been made over to the military in London."
    After the most careful consideration and experience of the working of the Aliens Restriction Act we believe that the action taken is adequate for the present, and is such as to remove any ground whatever for public apprehension. The police and military will remain on the alert, and take whatever further precautions are necessary in any emergency when the occasion arises. I have no figures as to the number of naturalised persons now in this country, but at the time of the last Census the number of naturalised Germans in England and Wales was 6,500.
    I cannot agree with the statement in the last part of the question that large numbers of Germans and Austrians are still free to communicate with their Governments. The closest supervision is maintained over their movements and communications. Fifty thousand, six hundred and thirty-three Germans and 16,141 Austrians and Hungarians have been registered throughout the United Kingdom. These figures include a number of cases returned for more than one district.
    I have no reason to think that any considerable number of alien enemies (other than those who are in military custody) have not been registered. I would ask the House to compare these figures with the figures currently stated in at least one newspaper, that there are 250,000 armed Germans in this country.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I ask whether, in order to further allay public anxiety, he would call together again the Sub-committee of the Committee of
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    Imperial Defence and let them reconsider the matter and make suggestions to meet the present situation?
    Mr. McKENNA: The Government have reconsidered the question and their present action is taken with the full approval and support of the military and naval authorities. I do not think that any other Sub-committee could possibly have the same authority.
    Mr. T. M. HEALY: Do the figures cover the United Kingdom?
    Mr. McKENNA: Yes.
    Mr. F. HALL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as a means of taking further precautions, whether he will consider the advisability of doing away with the fines in cases in which aliens have been brought before the authorities and found guilty and fines inflicted; and consider the necessity of inflicting in every case imprisonment?
    Mr. McKENNA: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the discretion of the magistrates is not in my keeping. Where a breach of the law is committed it is in the discretion of the magistrates to determine what the punishment should be, and I think it would be highly improper for the Executive to interfere with the judicial functions now existing.
    Sir J. D. REES: Is the right hon. Gentleman giving certificates of naturalisation to persons who applied at or immediately after the announcement of the War?
    Mr. McKENNA: Yes, Sir. In certain cases where it is in the public interest that foreigners should be naturalised I have granted certificates. I may say that the number of applications includes many thousands, and even if it were proper it would be impossible to meet the innumerable applications which I have received. Perhaps I might take this opportunity of reminding hon. Members throughout the House, from whom I have received a great many requests in regard to particular persons, that it is almost impossible for the Home Office to deal with the enormous number of applications which are strongly recommended by Members of Parliament to naturalise particular Germans and Austrians.
    Mr. REMNANT: Arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's first reply, in view of the danger of having amongst us these alien enemies who are armed, will the right hon. Gentleman further consider the possibility of arming the regular members of the police force, especially when they are stationed in the districts where there are many aliens?
    Mr. McKENNA: Some of them are armed.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think that that is a question which should be put down for to-morrow.

  ARMY ALLOWANCES AND PENSIONS.
  Mr. CHARLES LEACH: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary for War what payment is being and will continue to be made to the wives and widows of men who are now in the Army or who will join it during the War, and what pension will he made to those soldiers who may be incapacitated for work when the War is over?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Baker): As the answer to this question would be of considerable length, perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to send him a copy of a pamphlet which deals with these matters in detail.
  Mr. NEWMANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that uncertainty with regard to rate of pay and separation allowance for wife and children is acting as a deterrent to recruiting, and whether he will have a poster displayed on public buildings and other places setting out concisely the pay and separation allowance in the various branches of Service to which recruits will be entitled?
  Mr. BAKER: I will consider whether effect can be given to the hon. Member's suggestion.

  WAR OFFICE CONTRACTS.
  Mr. MORISON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken to enable small traders and manufacturers to tender for War Office contracts or to obtain in other ways War Office orders?
  Mr. BAKER: The War Office has received many thousands of applications for orders from manufacturers and others in all parts of the Kingdom. As occasion arises a communication is sent to all those whose services might possibly be utilised for the particular requirement in view.

  LIMITED COMPANIES (GERMAN SHARE CAPITAL).
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government has yet completed its consideration of the position of companies the share capital of which is owned in Germany, and what steps he proposes to take in regard thereto?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I hope to be able to make an announcement on this subject very shortly.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Before the House adjourns again?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Yes.

  WAR CORRESPONDENTS.
  Mr. HOGGE: I beg to ask the Home Secretary whether the regulations about War correspondents are about to be relaxed, and, if so, whether he can say how many are to be allowed to go to the front?
  Mr. McKENNA: I cannot say when our Allies will permit War correspondents to be present in the military zone. As our Army is operating in their country and in close conjunction with their forces, it is proper that we should be guided in this matter by their example.

  ISLAND OF LEWIS.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that 4,000 men, or one in eight of the population of the island of Lewis, are at present on active service and practically every household in the island is represented and consequently anxious for news which, at present, especially in isolated

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  parts, arrives days late, he will allow a short official telegram to be sent to the various post offices in the island daily to be exhibited in the windows there; and whether, in view of the same facts and in view of the enormous distances wives and dependants have to travel on foot to the nearest money order office to get their allowances, he will make it possible for money orders to be paid at the nearest post office even if it is not at present a money order office?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hobhouse): I am having inquiry made as regards both these points, and will communicate with the hon. Gentleman. I hope to give exceptional treatment to this rather isolated island.

  DESPATCHES FROM COMMANDERS-IN-CHIEF.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when it will be possible, in accordance with time-honoured practice, to publish the despatches received from our Admirals and Field-Marshals commanding at the front?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Despatches from the naval and military Commanders-in-Chief will be published as soon as they are received, due regard being had to the military situation. Naval despatches from subordinate commanders will also be published in an abbreviated form as the Ad-Admiralty may think fit.

  LORD KITCHENER'S NEW ARMY.

    OFFICERS COMMANDING SERVICE BATTALIONS.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to promote majors who have been appointed to command the Service Battalions of Lord Kitchener's New Army to the rank of lieut.-colonel, and in any case to direct that such majors should be entitled to draw a lieut.-colonel's full pay and allowances during the continuance of their command?
    Mr. BAKER: Yes, Sir. Promotion will be to the temporary rank of lieut.-colonel, with pay and allowances as such.

  TRANSFER OF EX-OFFICERS FROM POLICE.
  Mr. HAMERSLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether facilities could not be given for the number of non-commissioned officers retired from the Army now serving in the police to be transferred to the Army Department for the purpose of drilling and instructing recruits for the new Army?
  Mr. McKENNA: Action was taken for this purpose last week, and a large number of non-commissioned officers now serving in the police have been transferred to the military authorities to assist in training the New Army. About 700 or 800 instructors have thus been supplied from the police.
  Mr. HAMERSLEY: Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly state what procedure a non-commissioned officer in the police force has to take in order to get transferred?
  Mr. McKENNA: As between 700 and 800 have already been supplied I do not, think there is any difficulty in their obtaining the information. They are all communicated with and told of the opportunity which they now have.
  Mr. HAMERSLEY: Have the Home Office to apply?
  Mr. McKENNA: It is the police authorities who are invited by the War Office to send them.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: I beg to ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware that there is a general desire amongst men formerly in the Army, but now serving in the Metropolitan Police Force to re-join their regiments; whether their services can be utilised in this way or in connection with Lord Kitchener's Army, and if so, will the Government extend to them the same privileges as regards pay and pension as are extended to other Civil Service men called up for active service?
  Mr. McKENNA: The services of a large number of ex-non-commissioned officers now serving in the Metropolitan Police Force and others are being utilised to assist in the training of the New Army. I propose to introduce a Bill which will give them if they re-enlist the same privileges as have been granted by Parliament to police reservists.
  Mr. NIELDasked the Postmaster-General why the appeal issued by Lord Kitchener for recruits is not posted on the vans and vehicles employed in the postal service by him—especially in view of the fact that public opinion has been influenced to get the appeal exhibited on taxi-cabs, and that it appears on the great majority of such vehicles and also on the omnibuses?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I am arranging for this bill to be posted on the vans employed in the Post Office service.

  POLICE RESERVISTS.
  Captain JESSELasked whether policemen who were in the Territorial Force when joining the police, and had since been called out on mobilisation, are included in the scope of the Police Reservists Allowances Act, 1914; and, if not, whether the Home Secretary can make further provision?
  Mr. McKENNA: I have not had the advantage of receiving the notice of the hon. Member, but I think the answer to his question is in the affirmative. I will look into the point, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will speak to me about it.

  COMMERCTAL CODE CABLES.
  Mr. NEEDHAMasked whether arrangements are being made by which commercial code cables can be used?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to a similar question on the 27th ult. I said it was not at present possible to relax the regulations.
  Mr. NEEDHAM: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered how far the obligation to use a plain cable is retarding the
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  recommencement of trade; and how far that is in accordance with the wishes of the Government that industry should be carried on?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I am afraid it is quite impossible. A commercial code might be used to conceal a message that does not appear on the face of the words used. In the opinion of the Admiralty and War Office it is not possible at present to relax the rule.
  Mr. NEEDHAM: Has it been pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that the most rigorous conditions possible to be applied by the naval and military authorities would be adhered to—fines, imprisonment, punishment by death for treason?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: By that time the mischief might have been done by the conveyance of such message. I have put forward the views of the hon. Gentleman but have been quite unable to persuade either the War Office or the Admiralty of the soundness of them.
  Mr. MORRELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman obtain a reduction in the cable rates for uncoded messages while the prohibition of the codes continues?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: That depends not upon the Post Office, but upon the cable companies.
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the South American cable companies have taken advantage of the situation to abolish their cheap rates, and to make the public pay double, in some cases, for uncoded messages?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: That fact has not been brought to my notice, but I have no authority to deal with it; nothing but legislation can remedy that.
  Mr. ALDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman take steps to expedite the examination of cable messages, whether delayed or forwarded direct?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: The censorship is not in my hands, but under the control of the War Office and the Admiralty. I am afraid I have no power in that respect.

  EMPLOYERS AND SINGLE MEN.
  Mr. J. H. THOMASasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that employers are dismissing single men with a view to compelling them to enlist, and having regard to the magnificence of our men to the nation's call he will take steps to inform all employers that actions of intimidation of any kind are not calculated to help but rather to injure the voluntary sacrifice demanded at this stage?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Some cases of this kind have come to my notice, but I have no reason to think that the practice is at all general, and public opinion may, I hope, be trusted to discourage, as it should be discouraged, any such action on the part of employers.

  METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD.
  Mr. NIELDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the action of the Metropolitan Water Board in threatening to cut off domestic supplies of water in default of payment, at short date, of water rates made in advance and for a period which bas not expired; whether, in view of the financial difficulties of many persons by loss of employment, and other causes consequent upon the War, and to the fact that the cutting oft' of the water supply will render dwellings insanitary and the occupiers liable to penalties under the Public Health Acts, he will take steps to intimate to the Water Board that their legal powers should not be enforced during the existence of the moratorium, and for a reasonable period thereafter?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: My attention has been called to this matter, and I have been in communication with the Metropolitan Water Board with regard to it. I understand that they have sent out the usual notices, but that they will carefully investigate each case in which payment is not made, and will not cut off the supply of water in any case in which there is reason to suppose that the consumer is in financial difficulties in consequence of the War.

  HELP FROM INDIAN EMPIRE—

    PRINCES AND NATIVE TROOPS.
    Sir G. SCOTT ROBERTSONasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he could make any statement as to offers of help made in India in connection with the War?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Charles Roberts): In answer to the question I ask the House to allow me to read a telegram of very considerable length from the Viceroy to the Secretary of State, which really partakes rather of the nature of a statement than strictly an answer to a question, but in view of the importance of the matter. I hope the House will allow me to read it.
    The Secretary of State for India has received the following telegram from the Viceroy, dated 8th September, 1914;—
    Following is a summary of offers of service, money, etc., made in India to the Viceroy. The Rulers of the Native States in India, who number nearly seven hundred in all, have with one accord rallied to the defence of the Empire and offered their personal services and the resources of their States for the War. From among the many Princes and Nobles who have volunteered for active service, the Viceroy has selected the Chiefs of Jodhpur, Bikaner, Kishangarh, Rutlam, Sachin, Patiala, Sir Pertab Singh, Regent of Jodhpur, the Heir Apparent of Bhopal and a brother of the Maharaja of Cooch Behar, together with other cadets of noble families. The veteran Sir Pertab would not be denied his right to serve the King-Emperor in spite of his seventy years, and his nephew, the Maharaja, who is but sixteen years old, goes with him.
    All these have, with the Commander-in-Chief's approval, already joined the Expeditionary Forces. The Maharaja of Gwalior and the Chiefs of Jaora and Dholpur, together with the Heir Apparent of Palanpur were, to their great regret, prevented from leaving their States. Twenty-seven of the larger States in India maintain Imperial Service Troops, and the services of every

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    corps were immediately placed at the disposal of the Government of India on the outbreak of war. The Viceroy has accepted from twelve States contingents of Cavalry, Infantry, Sappers, and Transport, besides a Camel Corps from Bikaner, and most of them have already embarked. As particular instances of generosity and eager loyalty of the Chiefs the following may be quoted: Various Durbars have combined together to provide a hospital ship, to be called "The Loyalty," for the use of the Expeditionary Forces. The Maharaja of Mysore has placed Rs.50 lakhs at the disposal of the Government of India for expenditure in connection with the Expeditionary Force.
    The Chief of Gwalior, in addition to sharing in the expenses of the hospital ship, the idea of which was originated with himself and the Begum of Bhopal, has offered to place large sums of money at the disposal of the Government of India and to provide thousands of horses as remounts. From Loharu in the Punjab and Las Bela and Kalat in Baluchistan come offers of camels with drivers, to be supplied and maintained by the Chiefs and Sardars. Several chiefs have offered to raise additional troops for military service should they be required, and donations to the Indian Relief Fund have poured in from all States. The Maharaja of Rewa has offered his troops, his treasury, and even his private jewellery for the service of the King-Emperor. In addition to contributions to the Indian Fund some Chiefs, namely those of Kashmir, Bundi, Orchha and Gwalior and Indore have also given large sums to the Prince of Wales' Fund.
    The Maharja of Kashmir, not content with subscribing himself to the Indian Fund, presided at a meeting of 20,000 people held recently at Srinagar and delivered a stirring speech, in response to which large subscriptions were collected.
    Maharaja Holkar offers, free of charge, all horses in his State Army which may be suitable for Government purposes. Horses also offered by Nizam's Government, by Jamnagar and other Bombay States. Every Chief in the Bombay
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    Presidency has placed the resources of his State at the disposal of Government, and all have made contributions to the Relief Fund.
    Loyal messages and offers also received from Mehtar of Chitral and tribes of Khyber Agency as well as Khyber Rifles.
    Letters have been received from the most remote States in India, all marked by deep sincerity of desire to render some assistance, however humble, to the British Government in its hour of need.
    Last, but not least, from beyond the borders of India have been received generous offers of assistance from the Nepal Durbar; the military resources of the State have been placed at the disposal of the British Government, and the Prime Minister has offered a sum of Rs. 3 lakhs to the Viceroy for the purchase of machine guns or field equipment for British Gurkha Regiments proceeding over seas, in addition to large donations from his private purse to the Prince of Wales' Fund and the Imperial Indian Relief Fund.
    To the 4th Gurkha Rifles, of which the Prime Minister is honorary Colonel, the Prime Minister has offered Rs.30,000 for the purchase of machine guns in the event of their going on service. The Dalai Lama of Tibet has offered 1,000 Tibetan troops for service under the British Government. His Holiness also states that Lamas innumerable throughout length and breadth of Tibet are offering prayers for success of British Army and for happiness of souls of all victims of war.
    The same spirit has prevailed throughout British India. Hundreds of telegrams and letters received by Viceroy expressing loyalty and desire to serve Government either in the field or by co-operation in India. Many hundreds also received by local administrations. They come from communities and associations, religious, political and social, of all classes and creeds, also from individuals offering their resources or asking for opportunity to prove loyalty by personal service. Following may be mentioned as typical examples:—
    The All-India Moslem League, the Bengal Presidency Moslem League, the

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    Moslem Association of Rangoon, the Trustees of the Aligarh College, the Rehar Provincial Moslem League, the Central National Mahomedan Association of Calcutta, the Khoja Community and other followers of Aga Khan, the Punjab Moslem League, Mahomedans of Eastern Bengal, Citizens of Calcutta, Madras, Rangoon., and many other cities, Bohar Landholders' Association, Madras Provincial Congress, Taluqdars of Oudh, Punjab Chiefs' Association, United Provinces Provincial Congress, Hindus of the Punjab Chief Khalsa Diwan representing orthodox Sikhs, Bohra Community of Bombay, Parsee Community of Bombay.
    Delhi Medical Association offer field hospital that was sent to Turkey during Balkan War; Bengalee students offer enthusiastic services for an ambulance corps. and there were many other offers of medical aid; Zemindars of Madras have offered 500 horses, and among other practical steps taken to assist Government may be noted the holding of meetings to allay panic, keep down prices and maintain public confidence and credit. Generous contributions have poured in from all quarters to Imperial Indian Relief Fund.
    In addition I ought to mention that similar offers have reached the Secretary of State from Chiefs who happen to be at present in Europe. The Gaekwar of Baroda and the Maharaja of Bharatpur, to mention two only, have placed the whole resources of their States at the disposal of His Majesty's Government. The Indian community in England, including the Indian students, have made loyal offers of services. I feel confident that the House and the country will feel deep appreciation of this magnificient demonstration of the loyalty with which the Princes and Peoples of India have identified themselves with the cause of the Empire.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: In view of the very great importance of this message, may I ask the Prime Minister—although I feel Sure he has done it—whether the Government are taking every possible step to have the message circulated throughout the whole Empire?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes; that is being done.
    Mr. WILLIAM THORNE: Send a copy to the Kaiser.

  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Commissioners of Public Works (Ireland), whether every new owner of land purchased under the Land Purchase Acts will be an elector for the election of a drainage board constituted in respect of lands before he purchased them; and, if not, who is to vote in respect of such land?
  Mr. MONTAGU: The Board of Works are advised that a tenant who has signed an agreement to purchase under the Land Purchase Acts is from the moment of the estate being declared "an estate" by the Commissioners a proprietor for the purposes of the Drainage Acts. As "a proprietor" he would be entitled to vote at the election of a drainage board.

  Old Age Pensions.
  Mr. FLAVINasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state on what grounds John Carroll, Lerig, Ardfert, was refused an old age pension by the Local Government Board of Ireland which the local pension committee granted after full and careful inquiry?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): This man has not been refused a pension, but an application for the increase of his pension from 2s. to 5s. a week was disallowed by the Local Government Board on the 18th July, on the ground that his means were such as to debar him from the pension at the higher rate.
  Mr. FLAVIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the Local Government Board estimated were the means of this man?
  Mr. BIRRELL: That is the point. It was decided that his means were sufficient to debar him from a larger pension.
  Mr. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentle-man or the Local Government Board aware that this man has no means what ever?
  Mr. BIRRELL: On the contrary, I feel quite sure he has.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the Prime Minister what business will be taken to day and to-morrow?
The PRIME MINISTER: To-day we propose to take the introduction of a number of Bills of an emergency character, namely:—

Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Bill.

Charities (Emergency) Bill.

Rates (Proceedings for Recovery) Bill.

Trading with the Enemy Bill.

Insurance (Navy and Army) Bill.

Prize Courts Bill (Egypt, Zanzibar and Cyprus).

Bills of Exchange Bill.

To-morrow, before proceeding with the remaining stages of these Bills, We shall ask the House to resolve itself into Committee of Supply, and I shall then propose an additional Vote of men for the Army.

WAR IN EUROPE.

  POLICE CONSTABLES (NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICE) BILL.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): I beg to move. "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Police Reservists Allowances Act, 1914."
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. McKenna, Mr. Ellis Griffith, and Mr. Tennant. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 400.]

CHARITIES (EMERGENCY) BILL.
The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Herbert Samuel): I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to enable the Trustees of certain Charities to apply the funds temporarily to the purposes of the Prince of Wales' Relief Fund."
This Bill is introduced on the suggestion of the Charity Commissioners, and deals with certain charities which at the present time are unapplied, or, in the opinion of the trustees, cannot be applied to the prescribed purposes. It is suggested that the Commissioners, with the consent of the trustees, should have power to devote the incomes from those charities for the time being to the Prince of Wales' Fund. The Bill will only apply for the period of the War and six months afterwards.
Sir F. BANBURY: I hope we shall see in the Bill the actual charities which are to be dealt with.
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I believe there is a very considerable list, but I may state that they may only be dealt with by the consent of the trustees on the order of the Charity Commissioners.
Mr. RAWLINSON: Shall we have the Bill to-morrow morning?
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Yes.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: Will the charities affected by the Bill be limited

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to those which have some objects kindred to those dealt with by the Prince of Wales' Fund?
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I understand that these moneys cannot be applied for the purposes originally intended, and a certain number of them are almost derelict.
Mr. HAYES FISHER: May we have a schedule giving the majority of these charities?
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I will inquire from the Charity Commissioners.
Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: Has the question been considered whether this is the best fund to which to divert these charities? I would like to know? whether it would not be possible to divert some of them to the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association.
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I think on the whole the House would prefer that they should be distributed over the whole population. A large part of this fund is being devoted to soldiers' and sailors' families.
Mr. JOHN WARD: Many workmen are in serious difficulties although they are still contributing weekly contributions to the Prince of Wales' Fund.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Samuel and Mr. Charles Allen. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 399.]

RATES (PROCEEDINGS FOR RECOVERY) BILL.
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the time within which proceedings may be taken for the recovery of Rates."
Under the present law proceedings must be taken within a period of six months after the rate has become payable in the case of the general district rate, the water rate, the highway rate, and some other minor rates, but this limitation does not apply to the poor rate and the rates connected with it, such

583
as the borough rate and the county rate. With respect to the rates to which it does apply, the local authorities are in this dilemma: Either they must prosecute within a period of six months, although they know the rate cannot be paid because of difficulties consequent upon the War, or else they must forego the prospect of recovering the rate at any future time, although they have reason to think that after the present distress the rates may easily be payable. The Bill is being introduced with the full approval of the Municipal Corporations Association, and it provides that this limitation of six months within which certain rates can be recoverable by legal proceedings shall not apply where it can be shown that the inability to pay is through circumstances attributable directly or indirectly to the War. In these cases the local authorities can give a longer latitude than six months without losing all prospect of being able at some later date to take proceedings in regard to the rates which have become due.
Sir GEORGE YOUNGER: Does this Bill apply to Scotland?
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: No; I believe it is not necessary.
Mr. MAURICE HEALY: Will it apply to Ireland?
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: No; it is not necessary in the case of Ireland. I have consulted both the Scottish Office and the Irish Office, and they both say it is unnecessary that this Bill should apply.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Samuel and Mr. Herbert Lewis. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 398.]

TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (PENALTIES) BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir John Simon): I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to make provision with respect to penalties for trading with the enemy, and other purposes connected therewith."
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4.0 P.M.
Trading with the enemy is, by the common law of this realm, a crime, but as the House knows, it has been thought convenient to issue a Proclamation stating more in detail what are the transactions which are prohibited and what transactions are permitted. The experience of the last few weeks has shown that it is necessary to revise this Proclamation and issue a new one. This is being done to-day, and it will state more clearly the rules which must be observed. It will prohibit certain transactions which are not prohibited in the earlier Order. For example, it will prohibit the making of any payment to an enemy, even though it arises out of a contract made before the War began. In this connection, I might point out that trading with the enemy means a person, firm, or company resident or carrying on business in hostile territory, and the test in this connection is not the nationality of the person with whom you are dealing. The expression "alien enemy" is used in a different sense when registration is required by the Home Office. The present Bill will make this Proclamation effective by providing penalties for a breach of the rules against trading with the enemy. It is proposed to make the offence a misdemeanour punishable either summarily or on indictment. For a summary conviction the maximum punishment will be imprisonment for twelve months or a fine of £500. For a conviction on indictment, which, as the House knows, is a more lengthy and elaborate process suitable for cases of great gravity, the punishment will be penal servitude for seven years as a maximum penalty. In order to secure that prosecutions shall be undertaken solely in the public interest on adequate grounds and not for any private purpose, it is proposed to obtain the assent of the Attorney-General under the new law. There are two other things which are provided for in this Bill. The first is this: It is proposed to confer upon the Board of Trade, or a Secretary of State, power to apply to a magistrate for what, in effect, is a search warrant for leave to inspect the books and documents of a firm which there is reasonable ground for suspecting is committing the offence of trading with the enemy, and in certain special cases—for

585
example, where the persons interested m a firm or company are substantially subjects of a State now at war with this country, and there is reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence is being committed—this power of inspection is conferred upon the public Department without the necessity of an application to a magistrate. The remaining provision in the Bill is one which the experience of the last few weeks has shown to be needed. It is a provision which empowers the Board of Trade in certain special cases—for example, where a business is one which in the public interest should be continued, but which is in danger of being discontinued owing to difficulties of management connected with the War—to apply to the Court for the appointment of a receiver of the business, so as to enable it to be carried on. If the House will give mc leave to introduce the Bill to-day, then it will be circulated to-night, and we shall propose to take its remaining stages tomorrow.
Mr. POLLOCK: Will the Bill include some powers in reference to cases where English registered companies are carried on by German directors, or where the bulk or almost the bulk of the shares are held by foreigners? I did not gather from the Attorney-General's clear statement whether or not powers are taken in reference to such companies. He did tell us in cases where there was a company which could not be carried on because of the directors being alien enemies and it being impossible for them to meet that there were certain powers, but I did not understand that the Bill covered the case where you had a genuine English company registered under English company law. Great difficulty must arise in those eases where you have got an English company which is really in truth or in fact a branch of a parent company in Germany or a company which has a number of German directors, or where the whole of the capital is practically held by Germans. I hope the right hon. Gentleman has included in the Bill special powers in reference to those companies, so that if necessary inquiries can be made or returns can be asked for. I merely ask the Attorney-General that, and I hope that he may be able to give some assurance to the House.
Sir F. BANBURY: I would like to ask whether the powers under this Bill will include powers to prevent the payment of dividends to foreigners arising from holdings in the English companies? I did not gather from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman whether it included such powers or not. It is an important point. The right hon. Gentleman, no doubt, remembers that throughout the whole of the Crimean War the Russian Government fulfilled its obligations to its English creditors with very great advantage to itself afterwards. I think it would be a mistake if any legislation of the kind proposed by the right hon. Gentleman were to prevent foreigners who had invested their money in a genuine English company from receiving their dividends. The War is not going to last for ever, and it is our desire to attract as much money over here as we possibly can, I do not know whether I am speaking unnecessarily or not. but I would like to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to this fact, and to express the hope that he will remember what I say, and, if possible, avoid the prevention of the payment of dividends in an English company, or, I presume, an English municipality, to persons who may happen to be foreigners, but who genuinely invested their money some few years ago in those undertakings.
Mr. T. M. HEALY: I cordially support what the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has said. It would be most unfortunate if any steps were taken which would in any way penalise or discourage investments in this country by persons abroad. It is a fair case for the appointment of a receiver when a foreigner who has brought property in this country has deserted it and left it at large for his creditors, but to say that you should set about the confiscation of shares or property of an alien enemy, thereby setting a bad example to other countries, is a proposition which, I think, will require a great deal of consideration. I think the House would do well to bear in mind that there are English investments in Germany and in Austria of a very substantial and genuine kind, and we, a rich country like this, should certainly not be the first to say that a shareholder, although he is an alien enemy, should needlessly suffer. If it becomes a matter

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of warlike necessity, that is all well and good, but I think it would be most unfortunate if, as a mere act of patriotism or as a mere emergency measure, any steps were taken without the fullest consideration.
Mr. THEODORE C. TAYLOR: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions. In the first place, is it intended to penalise the payment by an Englishman of his just debt to au English agent of a foreign company who is resident here? In the second place, will this Bill enable a scheme to be started under which English creditors of German and Austrian debtors may have the debts on the other side, as it were, pooled, and the debts due by Englishmen also pooled, for the benefit of English creditors of German and Austrian debtors? The Associated Chambers of Commerce, as the House no doubt knows, have a Bill which they hope may be introduced here, and I should very much like to know whether the Attorney-General can give us any information as to whether it is the intention of the Government to utilise the debts owed to Germans and Austrians by English debtors, in part or in whole, to pay the indebtedness of German and Austrian debtors to creditors in this country.
Sir G. YOUNGER: The Board of Trade are apparently to have certain dispensary powers. I would ask the House to imagine a case in which an English manufacturer is offered and can obtain certain merchandise, raw material, more or less essential to the conduct of business here, shipped from Rotterdam by a German firm on the ordinary terms of credit, in some cases six weeks and in others twelve weeks. Would it be possible for the Board of Trade to give a dispensary power to receive that merchandise on condition that it was not paid for, but that the money was deposited, say, in a bank here or with the Treasury till the end of the War? It is possible to receive certain goods on those conditions, but I cannot tell for certain whether, under the present Proclamation, it would be legal. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman intended any dispensary power of that kind. The power would be very advantageous to certain people who want to get mer-
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chandise, and it would in no way prejudice the position by sending payment to an alien enemy.
Mr. DUKE: Perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman would tell the House, with regard to what has been said by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), whether at present by common law' every payment to an alien enemy is not illegal?
Mr. SHIRLEY BENN: Will it be illegal for any English firm to do business with a foreign firm which is not hostile, but which is recognised as a forwarding agent for a foreign hostile firm?
Mr. HOLT: Is there anything illegal in carrying on business with a German firm in a neutral country—for instance, in America or China? Nobody seems to know, and we should very much like to have a clear exposition of the law on the subject. Is it, or is it not, legal to enter into business with a German firm in a neutral country?
Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: I put a question to the President of the Board of Trade last week with regard to an English company with a capital of £600,000, £550,000 of which is owned in Berlin by Germans, and five-sixths of the entire directorate of which are also Germans. Is it not desirable, in the case of such a company dealing very largely with our own Admiralty and War Office, and having large Government contracts, that a controller should be appointed in order that it may be certain that Government secrets and interests are not, during the time of war, interfered with? I have not the least desire to impede ordinary business relations that are necessarily going on, nor do I differ from the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) in his desire that ordinary dividends on Consols and such-like stock should be paid to German creditors, but I do ask, if this Bill is going to deal with such questions, and, if not. whether some Bill will be brought in? The President of the Board of Trade promised that an announcement would be made very shortly on the subject, and I was in hopes that the Attorney-General would be able to make that statement this afternoon or on the Second Beading of the Bill.
Mr. F. HALL: I know from my own knowledge of contracts which have been entered into with neutral countries through Berlin, and I should be glad if the Attorney-General could make it perfectly clear whether, under the circumstances, people in the City of London can or should carry out those obligations to neutral countries which have been made through Berlin simply and solely as an agent.
Sir J. SIMON: A number of questions, some of them of very great general importance, have been raised, and it will be perhaps convenient if I may, by leave, just shortly give an answer. The Bill is one merely to provide for the trial by appropriate Courts of persons who are accused of breaking the law in this regard, and for their punishment if they are convicted. It does not primarily deal with all the matters which hon. Members have raised in the Debate, but we are pursuing this method. We have already issued a Proclamation against trading with the enemy. It was designed primarily as a warning. We live, as a rule, in times of peace, and the trading community cannot be expected to know, and, as a matter of fact, I very much doubt whether anybody knows, precisely what is the law about it. I certainly do not claim to have any great confidence about it. We issued the Proclamation as a warning. We have now, in the light of the experience of the last few weeks, revised that Proclamation, and we are issuing a new one to-day. We are now, by this Bill, taking powers to make breaches of the rules in that Proclamation offences, so the Proclamation ceases to be a mere warning and becomes a definition of what you may do and what you may not do. At the same time we have reserved power to modify the Proclamation from time to tune, and we have taken power also in the appropriate Department to grant licence or permission in particular cases when good cause is shown and made out. Unless you have some such system you really cannot adjust the rule on these matters to the infinite complexity of British trade, and to lay down a cast-iron rule and to apply it to individuals against the judgment of common sense would, I am sure, be a very fatal policy for the commercial interests of this country. There is
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a Committee sitting—a Trading with the Enemy Committee—of which I am Chairman, and in the course of two or three hours every day it passes in review hundreds of applications. Many of them can be at once dealt with on the lines which have already been settled. But in cases of difficulty further consultation may be required, and it is by that means we try to do what we can to give practical assistance to traders who feel in any difficulty in regard to these matters. That is the general scheme. I come now to the questions which have been put to me.
The first was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Leamington (Mr. Pollock) and by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks). It was as to the position of companies registered under our English law—companies registered as English companies but which are, in substance, enemy's concerns. Of course it is to be observed that, even although the shareholders of a company may be enemies, it you really take proper steps to prevent the profits of such a concern being distributed to the enemy, it may be that such an enterprise is a very useful way of employing labour in this country. There are undoubtedly many very important cases of this sort, and we should be acting very foolishly if we laid down any cast-iron rule such as has been suggested. So far as the Bill is concerned, and so far as the Proclamations under the Bill are concerned, they are rather directed to making sure that there is no transmission of anything in the way of profits, or the equivalent of profits, from this country to hostile territory. That is primarily our object, and the question what is the position of a particular firm or company in this country only arises incident-ally. The hon. Member for Brentford has suggested that the President of the Board of Trade has not dealt fully with a question which he put on this subject. But this matter has been engaging the attention of several of us. We have been looking into it very closely, and I may say it is the intention of my right hon. Friend to produce, before our present sittings terminate—to produce immediately, proposals dealing with this matter. I want to make it quite plain, however, that the Bill which I am asking leave to introduce

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does not profess to deal with the case of a company registered under our law which is found in substance to be a company with a hostile directorate and shareholders, save to this extent: In this Bill we do confer on the proper Department of State power to investigate the books of any such company in order to ascertain the facts, and, having ascertained the facts, the Board of Trade, in the Bill which it is proposed to introduce, will suggest a proper way of dealing with such a company. I venture to submit to the House, and as far as I may to others outside who are much concerned with this matter, that it is a very foolish and short-sighted thing for us to do, just because we come across an enterprise in this country with a German or Austrian name, or which is suspected to have a German or Austrian connection—it is a very foolish thing for us, and very bad for employment in this country, to lay down a cast-iron rule. What we desire to make certain is that such an enterprise shall not transmit goods or profits to the enemy's country, and that ought to be the general object which we have in view.
The hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) and the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) raised a question about the payment of dividends to shareholders who "re foreigners. Let me point out again that, though there is in our Proclamation a prohibition against making payments to the enemy, payment to the enemy in this connection it is quite clear in the Proclamation, does not mean payment to a man in this country who has got a name which does not seem to be an English name. It means transmission of money or the equivalent of money to a hostile country. Therefore, the case which the hon. Baronet has in mind is not a case of paying dividends to Germans or Austrians who have duly registered themselves and have satisfied the authorities that they are perfectly reasonable persons to be here in our midst, but it is a case of paying dividends to persons resident in Germany or Austria-Hungary. There, again, I take leave to say our policy ought to be to make it quite plain that we are not engaged in any process of confiscation. It is a matter of commercial good faith, and it is obviously
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good business that we should make it entirely plain that a private citizen, although the subject of States now at war with us, so far as he has commercial interests in this country, or vested rights in private commercial dealings, is safe and his interests are going to be guarded rather than confiscated. It is at present under consideration whether we might not make some special provision for these interests to be collected and gathered in the hands of some authority which would be able to keep an account and record of this kind of property, which may in some cases be derelict or very nearly so. That is a point I will not now go into, because it has not been fully considered. But while we lay down the principle you must not make payments or transmit goods out of this country to hostile territory, there again in proper cases it is quite possible to grant licences where the argument is strongly in favour of exceptions being allowed. I think it is better to lay down the rule that dividends are not to be transmitted to the enemy's country. They should be duly secured and paid into a bank here, where they can be safely earmarked for their true owners. That is obviously a proper thing to do, but we thought it best to lay down the rule that payments are not to be made involving transmission to the enemy's country, because, if once we began to allow that, I do not know where we should stop.
My hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Theodore Taylor) asked whether any objection was going to be taken to payments which English merchants or others wished to make in discharge of their just debts to agents in this country of firms established in the enemy's country. I am very averse to starting legal doubts, but I think myself there is very grave doubt whether a man who acts in this country as the agent of a German or Austrian firm can really and truly be said to have any agency once the War has broken out. I should very much doubt whether any contract of agency was not automatically suspended by the outbreak of war. I hope, however, it may be possible to make arrangements in these cases. The Trading with the Enemy Committee has done everything it can to suggest arrangements which will enable

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those who want to rid themselves of liabilities which they are prepared to discharge to do so, in order that they may feel that they are paying their debts and carrying on their business as commercial men desire to do, while taking proper security that money or goods shall not be transmitted to a hostile country. There, again, some plan by which we might be able to collect such money and hold it on account of those to whom it would belong if the War were not proceeding may be found to be the best and most practicable method. In that connection my hon. Friend asked whether it was not possible to set off debts which Englishmen owe to Germans against debts which Germans owe to Englishmen. Any suggestion that proceeds on the proposition that trade is exchange would be heartily welcomed by myself. But there is this little inconvenience, that, if you begin paying the debts which Germans owe to Englishmen in this way, it remains to be seen whether a sufficient number of Englishmen will come forward to announce that they owe money to Germans. That obviously is a difficulty, and it is one of which I have not yet seen a solution suggested. The proposal to which my hon. Friend referred was, I think, made by the Associated Chambers of Commerce. It is one which has been a good deal considered in the Treasury and elsewhere, and my hon. Friend may rest quite content that it has not been overlooked.
In answer to the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir George Younger), who asked whether or not it is possible to grant some dispensing power enabling people to receive goods, shipped through Rotterdam to this country, provided they are sent on the understanding that they are not to be paid for until the War is over, I think I may take it upon myself to answer that off-hand. If the hon. Gentleman or any of his compatriots can persuade those with whom they trade to supply them with valuable commodities on the terms that nothing is to be paid for until the War is over, I am quite sure that the Committee which deals with Trade with the Enemy would offer no sort of opposition.
Sir G. YOUNGER: I put that as an alternative.
Sir J. SIMON: I thought that probably the hon. Baronet did not want to carry his proposal quite to that extent. I would ask him to remember that it is possible to assist an enemy just as much by giving him good credit in this country as by paying him money. If the hon. Baronet puts into the bank at the disposal of an enemy a sum of £10,000, that enemy becomes £10,000 richer for the purpose of making purchases. But this, again, is one of those cases where, if we can devise a satisfactory scheme for holding the interest of the alien enemy until the War is over, we may thereby do something to assist our own trade while making certain there is no improper help offered to those with whom we are at war. The hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke) said, quite truly, that, according to our common law, every payment to an enemy is illegal. But it is not convenient to make that cast-iron rule fit in with the complexity of modern commerce, and we have thought it well, therefore, to proceed by way of Proclamation, which not only says you are warned against doing certain things, but which also says in certain cases you may do certain things under proper conditions.
That brings me to the only remaining question—the question about branches, and I am much obliged to the hon. Members who raised it. In the proclamation which we are issuing today we are slightly varying the terms previously laid down for dealing with branches, and perhaps the House will allow me to state, in a couple of sentences, what our proposal is. If a branch is, say, in China or South America, the advantage which accrues to our home trade and commerce by allowing ordinary dealings to be continued is infinitely greater than any advantage which would accrue to us from stopping such trade. Take, for instance, the enormous export trade of Lancashire to some of those great neutral markets on the other side of the world. It is, as many hon. Members know quite well, a common thing for an importer in a neutral market—say China or Argentina—to be a German house—a branch of a house established in the Empire of Germany. The usual course of business is for the order to be given by the head office for the goods to be delivered to the branch house on the other side of the world. Of course, we cannot have any

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new transactions entered into with the head office in the enemy's country, as that would obviously be trading with the enemy in a most direct way. We have provided that there is no objection to entering into transactions with a, branch in neutral territory of a house established in Germany, so long as the contract is made with and the goods are delivered to the branch, and, secondly, that there is no direct contract made with the head office in Germany or Austria
Sir G. YOUNGER: Does that apply to the branches in the Colonies as well?
Sir J. SIMON: It applies to branches of houses established in Austria or Germany, whether those branches are in neutral or British territory or Allied territory, that is French or Russian, but we have found ourselves obliged to make this limitation, and this is the new matter we have dealt with in the Proclamation—we find it necessary to say that it cannot be permitted if the branch is in neutral territory on the Continent of Europe. We find by experience that to allow trading with a branch in some neutral country, which borders closely upon the areas with which we are at war, really is offering so considerable a loophole for trading with the enemy that it is necessary that we should make that restriction. In a given case, where it is suitable so to do, it will still be possible to grant a licence and to permit it where we can get proper security. The effect will be that no offence will be committed under the Proclamation if the trading is with a branch of a German or Austrian house, so long as that branch is outside Europe or the United Kingdom where it can be controlled, but we make the exception that the branch is if, on neutral territory not on the Continent of Europe. By that means we think we have taken the security for which we must ask in order to protect national interests with calmness and good judgment without making unnecessarily severe rules against businesses necessary for continuing the trade and commerce of this country, and which provide employment for our own people. I think I have dealt with all matters raised by hon. Members.
Mr. JAMES HOPE: What kind of offence is this to be? Under the present common law is it not treason felony?
Sir J. SIMON: Under the common law it is at any rate a possible view that it really amounts to treason, because it is in the nature of comforting or assisting the enemy. One of the reasons why we are anxious to have this Bill put on the Statute Book is to enable this offence to be dealt with summarily and conveniently, instead of having to run the risk of the whole paraphernalia of a trial for treason. Under the common law you cannot punish offences such as this before a magistrate. We propose to take power to punish before a magistrate. Since the punishment under the Bill may exceed three months' imprisonment, everybody who is tried under this Bill will have the right to be tried by jury if he wishes.
Mr. JAMES HOPE: The common law is not ousted?
Sir J. SIMON: We expressly provide against that.
Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: I desire to know what provision is, or is going to be, made for companies governed entirely by Germans? There is one company governed entirely by Germans which has a contract with the Government for the supply of articles worth £20,000. This particular article is going to be used in the War in connection with field telegraphy. The manager, the works manager, and others connected with it, are Germans. What is to hinder them putting in bad stuff? There is another company consisting of Germans who have a contract with the Admiralty—
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is going rather wide of the Bill. I have allowed the greatest possible latitude in the Debate, but that question does not arise on this Bill, which provides for penalties under the Proclamation. The first point referred to by the hon. Member has already been dealt with and answered before he came into the House.
Mr. BRYCE: The answer given by the Attorney-General to the question raised by the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) was highly satisfactory, but there is another important point in connection with the same subject to which he did not allude, namely, the question whether transfers of shares at present held by alien enemies in British companies are to be allowed.

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It is understood that under the existing Proclamation such transfers are not permissible. It may be a matter of very great importance to that alien enemy, whom the Attorney-General says he does not wish injuriously to affect so tar as any confiscation of his interests is concerned, if he were not able daring the continuance of war to sell those shares, so long as the money which resulted from the sale was not transmitted. It might amount to confiscation, supposing his shares during the War fell to a price very much lower than at present exists, or may exist for some time. He would be able to define his risk by selling his shares and effecting a transfer during the course of the War. It is a question which is creating considerable feeling in the City at the present time. If it is desired not to affect injuriously the interests of foreign shareholders the Government ought to consider that question, either in this Bill or in a Proclamation. There is another point of very great importance with regard to insurance companies. A great many—in fact, all great insurance companies—have contracts running with German and Austrian companies for sharing risks of fire all taken out in this country. Are those agreements cancelled or not by the War, or is the existence of those contracts and the payment of money under them really suspended? That is a matter which has excited a great deal of anxiety among insurance companies, and I wish the Attorney-General would say something upon it.
Mr. BUTCHER: There is one point arising out of the Attorney-General's speech upon which I would ask either him or the Solicitor-General to give some explanation. I gather that one object of the Bill is to prevent the transmission of goods or money to hostile territory. The point I desire to raise is what is to happen in the case of the transmission of money or goods to an alien enenmy resident in a neutral country? It is quite obvious that such a transmission would be, or might be, just as dangerous in its results as transmission direct to the alien enemy in his own country, because he might find means of getting the goods or money handed on from the neutral country. Would it be
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possible to forbid such a transmission in the Proclamation? If it were so for bidden, I presume it would be dealt with in the Bill. If it is not already dealt with, will the Government say that at least that point will not be lost sight of?
Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: The question I desire to raise is one on which I have had very much correspondence. At present, broadly speaking, the distinction between enemy and friend is the line of war—that is to say, that a person permanently resident or domiciled, as the lawyers would say, or carrying on commercial business permanently in a hostile country is regarded as an enemy, whatever his nationality may be—in fact, even if he be British—but that if he is domiciled or carrying on business permanently in a neutral country, even though he is a German, he is regarded by us as a neutral. Similary, if a German is carrying on business permanently here, he gets the advantage of the cloak of nationality.
Sir J. SIMON: That is the principle upon which the whole Proclamation proceeds.
Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: So I understood. But there is a question upon which it is very difficult to judge, and which is of some practical importance, because I have already had since the outbreak of war a number of inquiries upon it, particularly in relation to life insurance—that is, What is the character, enemy or friendly, of a German or Austrian who is in British territory, not domiciled here in the sense of his having made this country his permanent domicile or having a commercial domicile here in the sense of permanently carrying on business here, but is in this country more or less permanently? In my view, which I put forward with considerable hesitation, at common law the position of that Geman is still that of an enemy, and transactions with him are forbidden by the rules regarding trading with the enemy. I can see many grounds of policy why that man should not be treated as an enemy, and I would like the consideration of the Government to that particular point in regard to this Bill.
Sir J. SIMON: It seems to me that that will be dealt with in the new Proclamation. The old Proclamation spoke of

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enemies as if they were persons resident or carrying on business or being—we had the three expressions—in the enemy country. We now propose to say those persons who are resident or carrying on business.
Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: I am grateful for the interruption of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. That meets the particular point, which I regard as being of practical importance to the business community at large. Another point which is of very great practical importance to the business community is this: Contracts made before the War are not, primâ facie, dissolved by the War, but are suspended during the War. That is the ordinary rule of Common Law. As a matter of fact, practically all commercial contracts, I believe, are dissolved by the War, because the carrying out of the contract would involve dealing with the enemy, which is forbidden. I do not know whether the Government have been able to do anything towards the solution of the difficulty of deciding whether any given contract in existence at the outbreak of the War is to be treated as dissolved or suspended. It is an extraordinarily difficult question, and one with which the business community of this country has been faced very much, upon which all of us lawyers have already been asking innumerable questions. The Attorney-General smiles. I should think he has been asked them all day long. If the Government can see their way to any solution of that question, and can give an indication as to what characteristics of a contract will enable it to be merely suspended, and what characteristics will cause it to be treated as one that ought to be dissolved, they will do a great service to the business community of the country, who would be very grateful.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: I desire to ask the Attorney-General questions on two points as to which my doubts, I am quite certain, are due to my ignorance. In the case of firms or companies belonging to alien enemies which have branches in neutral countries, does the agent become the principal in carrying out the contracts with those houses? The second question is, whether, in the case of contracts made for the periodic delivery of goods extending over a long time at so much a month
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or a quarter, is there no limit at all to the currency of that contract, or does it go on, or is it renewable by the agents of the alien enemies in neutral countries from time to time? I only ask these questions because I know they have occurred to business people, and it is as well to get them cleared up by experts.
Mr. PETO: May I ask a question first with regard to the further stages of the Bill being taken to-morrow. For convenience, may we have a copy of the Proclamation to-day, so that we may know exactly what its terms are? Secondly, for the information of the trading community, will the right hon. Gentleman state exactly to whom, and to what address, applications are to be made so as to get the earliest possible attention for exceptional cases where ft is desirable that some trade should be carried on with an alien enemy?
Sir J. D. REES: Will this new Bill cover the position of an alien enemy who acts in such a manner that he would be liable to the penal clauses of the contract but for the War? For instance, suppose an employer has an alien enemy in his employment under circumstances in which he would be entitled to a year or six months' notice, but gives him a month's notice, as undoubtedly he could do at present, would he at the expiry of the War be liable to be sued under the penal clauses of the contract? I know that cases of this sort have happened, and if the Attorney-General would answer, I should be grateful. I would also add my plea to that of the hon. Member (Mr. Peto), that copies of this Proclamation should be circulated with the Votes. It was not done in the case of the moratorium, and some people, of whom I was one, suffered some inconvenience in consequence.
Mr. CLYDE: I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman could throw some light upon the position of contracts of the kind to which my hon. Friend (Mr. Leslie Scott) referred—contracts which were made, let us say, between Germans and people in this country before the War. I have in my mind broadly the case of transactions, of which I know there were a very great many on the Exchange—contracts which were made by Germans before war was declared and transactions which

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were actually carried out, so far as the relationship between the brokers was concerned, before War was declared, but which have not been completed. That is to say the settlement day arrived—Stock Exchange transactions are one of the class of transactions I am thinking of—only after war was declared. Will either the Proclamation or the Bill affect contracts in that position, or is that to be left to whatever may be the solution which the ordinary principles of law would give? I enforce the point with this in my mind—which, of course, will be obvious to the right hon. Gentleman—that in the case of transactions which are carried out, as so many of these are, between brokers, the brokers are usually bound individually to each other. That stage has been reached in the case of the transactions which are in my mind. Of course, unless some relief were to be accorded in some direction or other, there might arise no end of difficult legal complications. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he can, to throw some light upon the position in which contracts in the completed stage in one sense, but in the unexecuted stage in another, will stand.
Sir d. SIMON: When the Bill is circulated it will be plain to the House that some of those matters which are being raised do not arise upon it. Take the matter which was last referred to by the hon. Member (Mr. Leslie Scott). What we are dealing with is the offence of trading with the enemy. That is quite a different thing from asking what is the effect of the outbreak of war upon contracts entered into before the War began.
Mr. LESLIE SCOTT: What I meant was this: Is the execution of a contract which has been made before the War going to be made plainly illegal, and will the Bill, or will it not, leave the question on one side as to whether, not only is execution of the contract illegal, but whether the contract is in addition to be dissolved and not suspended?
Sir J. SIMON: I agree that there is in that sense a connection. I only wanted to make clear that the question is as to the proper punishment to impose upon a man who commits the criminal offence of trading with an enemy. The other question is only incidentally involved. I
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shudder at the prospect of any Government or Law Officer making itself, or himself, responsible for an immediate and precise and detailed solution of every legal conundrum in commercial law which arises in consequence of the War. Not only am I, of course, wholly incompetent to deal with so varied a mass of matters, but I shall be committing the grossest offence in the view of every barrister, because obviously it is the duty of private persons to consult private advisers. The Proclamation will, I hope, make it quite clear what is permitted and what is prohibited. If a man has entered into a contract before the War, and has not delivered the goods at the time War breaks out, he will none the less be not only excused from delivering them, but prevented from delivering them if it is clear that he will commit a criminal offence by doing it. I hope it will be found that we have made it quite plain that where the delivery of goods is a delivery which arises before the War, still delivery during the War is prohibited. I will not say more about it than that at the moment.
Mr. BIGLAND: Will contracts be suspended, or will they be entirely cancelled by the act of war?
Sir J. SIMON: I strongly advise the hon. Member to consult the numerous very competent authorities who hold themselves out to offer advice at very reasonable remuneration to those commercial persons who think a lawyer's advice is worth having. I will not nominate a counsel. There are plenty of them. The suggestion made by the hon. Member below the Gangway, that it would be convenient to see the Proclamation and have it circulated, is very reasonable. I cannot have it circulated to-night, because the Council at which it was passed was only held this afternoon. I will make inquiries to see whether it is possible to circulate it to-morrow, and, if it is not, I will see whether it is not possible to have copies available early in the Vote Office, so that the Debate may be conducted with a Proclamation before us. I do not for a moment flatter myself that the Proclamation or the Bill will solve all these questions, but it is an effort made, as the result of a great deal of hard work, to improve the situation, and I hope the Committee which has been dealing with

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the matter has really produced a much better set of rules than any which exist at present. The person to whom to address any such inquiry as the hon. Member (Mr. Peto) referred to—not that I would encourage their multiplication—would be the Secretary of the Trading with the Enemy Committee at the Treasury. With regard to a question asked me by another hon. Gentleman, I do not know whether he would forgive me if I asked whether I might just see in the OFFICIAL REPORT what it is he put to me and deal with it to-morrow. I would ask the same of my hon. Friend, because the subject of insurance and reinsurance is a difficult one. As regards the transfer of shares, the position is plain. We certainly cannot allow any new sales or purchases of shares as between an alien enemy, say a person in Germany or Austria and ourselves. As regards contracts already made, where all that remains to be done is for the companies to write a new name in a book, there would not be any objection to that being done so long as it is quite clear that it arises under a contract which was made before the War began. The hon. Gentleman (Sir J. D. Rees) asked me whether or not this Proclamation or Bill would affect the position of an employer who had in his service an alien enemy and has cancelled his contract of engagement. I have pointed out that "alien enemy" for this purpose does not mean anyone who is in this country at all, therefore I do not really think the question arises. The hon, and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butcher) asked me if similar inconvenience and damaging results might not follow from transmission, say, to some person in a neutral country.
Mr. BUTCHER: An alien enemy.
Sir J. SIMON: No, for the purpose of any rules about trading with an enemy, by enemy you mean someone in a hostile country. It may or may not be wise to prohibit people sending money to persons living normally with a foreign enemy. I think it most inexpedient. I am sure the best thing we can do is to trade as far and as freely as we may with neutrals. I do not know how you could find out whether a person you are trading with is
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or is not a subject of a State at war. The principle is that you are not to trade with people who are resident or carrying on business inside the enemy country, whatever their nationality may be.
Mr. BUTCHER: I understand that my point is outside the scope of the Bill?
Sir J. SIMON: I think so, yes.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by the Attorney-General, Mr. McKenna and Mr. Runciman. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 395.]

PRIZE COURTS (EGYPT, ZANZIBAR AND CYPRUS) BILL.
Sir J. SIMON: I beg to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the exercise of prize jurisdiction by certain British Courts in Egypt, Zanzibar and Cyprus, in respect of the present War."
5.0 P.M.
The existing law does not appear plainly to authorise the setting up of Prize Courts in these territories, because they are not in the full sense of the term British territories, though they are not neutral territories in the ordinary sense of the term either. This Bill empowers His Majesty to confer prize jurisdiction on certain Courts in these three territories.
Mr. DENNISS: Are there not courts in the Soudan also which should be included?
Sir J. SIMON: I will consider that. I have not been told that it is necessary.
Bill ordered to be brought in by the Attorney-General, Mr. Churchill, and Mr. Lambert. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 396.]

BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
Sir J. SIMON: I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to make provision in connection with the present War with respect to Bills of Exchange payable outside the British Islands."

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Perhaps I might explain that, as the House no doubt remembers, in the ordinary way the holder of a Bill of Exchange who wants to have recourse for payment to the drawer of it or the endorser of it—the persons who are only sureties—has first of all to present it for payment to the acceptor who is primarily liable. It is quite true that the present law provides for certain exceptional cases in which the holder is excused for delay in making such presentation to the acceptor. A good deal of doubt exists as to whether the present law will be sufficient to protect the holders of bills who are anxious to present them to acceptors abroad and who cannot as a matter of practice present them, either because the acceptor is in an enemy country, or because of the difficulties involved in transmitting them by post. We propose to introduce this Pill to make it clear that our Courts will enforce the remedy against persons secondarily liable provided that reasonable steps have been taken to present a bill to the person who is primarily liable.
Mr. DUKE: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take care that the Bill is retrospective so as to protect the period that has passed since the outbreak of the War?
Bill ordered to be brought in by the Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General, and Mr. Montagu. Presented accordingly; lead the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 397.]

NATIONAL INSURANCE (NAVY AND ARMY) BILL.
Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN (Lord of the Treasury): I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend Section 16 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, in respect of certain officers, warrant officers, and soldiers."
The effect of this Bill will be to permit men enlisted in the New Army to be treated in the same way as Territorials are treated who were in employment. If insured before, they can continue to be insured; and if not insured before enlistment, they need not become insured unless they wish to do so. The Bill also provides
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that officers who take commissions in the New Army may, if already in insurance, continue in insurance.
Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: Is the Government going to give the option to this New Army to come into insurance or not? If they do elect to come into insurance, they should come in at full rates. I would remind the hon. Gentleman what this means. A good many of these men may be employed for the first time. They may have been working on their own account as farmers, small holders, or otherwise, and as they will be joining over sixteen years of age they will only be entitled to reduced benefits for their payments. It would be quite easy to provide that they would be entitled to be deemed as having joined within eighteen months after the passing of the National Insurance Act.
Mr. BOOTH: It may be very easy to place these new entrants upon favourable terms to themselves without making provision that societies will take them as members. I do not see how you can ask approved societies to take new members at this time, and give them benefits to which in the ordinary case they would not be entitled without at the same time doing something to help the societies. We do not want them to be Post Office contributors. It is easy to make the Bill say that these men will receive benefits to which they would not be entitled in the ordinary way, but you will not get societies to take them in any number unless the Government gives some assistance.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Wedgwood Benn, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Dr. Macnamara and Mr. Tennant. Presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 401.]
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

SUPPLY.
Resolved, That this House will. Tomorrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty.—[Mr. Gulland.]
Ordered, That the Supplementary Estimate presented to this House this day be referred to the Committee of Supply.

SUPERANNUATION.
Committee to consider of making further provision out of moneys provided by Parliament for pensions, superannuation and other allowances, and gratuities (King's recommendation signified) To-morrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]

ACCOMMODATION FOR RECRUITS.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July, proposed the Question "That this House do now adjourn."
Sir. IVOR HERBERT: I gave notice to the Under-Secretary of State for War that on the Motion "That this House do now adjourn," I would draw attention to the serious want of proper preparation on the part of the War Office authorities in regard to recruitment, and to the subsequent treatment of recruits. I think, perhaps, it will be for the convenience of the House if I were to read a letter which I addressed to the Under-Secretary of State for War, for it contains briefly the substance of what I have to say.
The letter, dated 8th September, was as follows;—
"The want of reasonable forethought displayed by the War Office in its measures for the raising of the new Army of 500,000 men has produced the inevitable result of confusion, and the climax was reached on Saturday last, when orders were received to transfer to the Reserve men alredy enlisted in order to relieve the congestion in regimental depots, and other military centres, and in future to transfer similarly to the Reserve after attestation all men presenting themselves for enlistment.
It is doubtful whether such an order does not constitute a breach of contract with the men enlisted last Saturday. Their attestation contained no mention of Reserve serving. They were enlisted to serve for three years or during the duration of the war, and orders issued indicate that the only service contemplated was Colour service. If this view is correct, then there is no justification for paying these men Reserve pay at sixpence a day in lieu of the full rate for which they engaged.
But the question of pay is of little moment. Men are not coming forward, as they have done for the last three weeks, for lucre. The most serious grievance is that they are sent back (as they feel it to be) from the front.
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They have suffered with exemplary patience and discipline the hardships they have suffered in being herded together without adequate or necessary arrangement in camps and regimental depots, and now they are sent back to their homes to tell the story of official incapacity and mismanagement.
I have seen a large number of men so returned; I have also seen letters from men from Tidworth and other places, whither the recruits have been forwarded in feverish haste without any preparation for dealing with them. It is everywhere the same thing. Absence of food, no pay, and absence of decent provision for wasting and sanitation.
I regret extremely at such a time to have made public a state of things which is a scandal, but I feel I have personal responsibility to upwards of 6,000 men who in the last few weeks have come forward from this county (my own county) in response to my call. I therefore write to give you notice that it is my intention to raise this question in the House of Commons on the Motion that the House do now adjourn To-morrow."
That is the general substance of a very common complaint. The complaints to which I have alluded continue to come to me. I had a letter which I received when I was coming up this morning and which describes the conditions in which these men have been at some of the depots. It says:—
"May I call your attention to the treatment of young men from this district who have left, or are about to leave, good clean homes and good employment to defend the honour of their country? There were a large number sent from here to Brecon last week, and sent back last Saturday; many of them in a verminous state. They stale that there are men of the tramping class, who are verminous, put in the same rooms as they are, and naturally the lot of them get into the same state. A large number of the young men prefer to go and lie down all nigh; out in the square, and many refused a blanket to put over themselves, as they too are alive. What a condition of affairs to send young men into!"
I think there is only one way in which it is possible for me to call attention to the matter, and that is on the floor of this House. I trust we shall hear from the Under-Secretary some, I cannot say justification, but some explanation of the utter failure shown by the Department with which he is connected to give proper consideration to the problem presented to them, and to prevent such a state of things being possible. I would like to say that while I express the opinion contained in the letter just read as to the absence of thought on the part of the highest military authorities. I do not wish to cast any imputation or slur on those officers of the Western command with whom I have been in constant communication, and whose earnestness, zeal and industry have all been before me. If the House will permit

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me to speak personally for a few moments, I should like to make an explanation. My connection with recruiting arose in this way. As soon as the Vote of this House was taken for the increased number of 500,000 men, I drafted a letter of instruction to all magistrates and chairmen of local authorities throughout the county for which I am His Majesty's Lieutenant, stating what they were to do to insure that there should be a proper response to this call, and also to insure that such an omission as this should not arise. I submitted my programme to the general officer commanding the Western district and asked his approval of my taking over the whole duties of recruiting in my county from that day. I received promptly a very kind telegram expressing the full approval of this officer who has given me every conceivable help, and I proceeded at once to carry out that programme. It was a very simple programme. It was to place in the hands of the local authorities, the men who are trusted by their fellow men and who are known all through the county, the duty of raising the required contingent from that county. The arrangements were such that every man who wished to serve his country, should be enrolled and retained at his home until such time as the military authorities were ready to deal with him. I may be permitted to read the words of my instructions—
The first step should be the formation of Committees, whose function will be to register and classify, according to age and capacity, all men who are willing to undertake military service. These should be provided with a card bearing the name of the district, and a number, and arrangements should be made for their being immediately ready when required… County depots for the subsequent reception of recruits will be formed, whence they will be transferred to the Army centre to be clothed and equipped."
All these arrangements were carried out admirably by a number of gentlemen and ladies who were working, purely voluntarily and without any pay. The whole of this work was done, and the 8,000 men who have enlisted in the last four weeks could have been dealt with easily, and they could have been now, if necessary, still at work at their occupation, but ready to come forward when wanted. Instead of that, orders were issued by the Department that these men were to be sent in feverish haste up to these depots which were inadequate to
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receive them. From these depots they were sent again with the same feverish haste to centres like Tidworth. I may say, incidentally, that such arrangements as sending men backwards and forwards in that fashion are wholly unnecessary and absurd. Still, orders were given and carried out. I impressed on everybody from the outset that, whether the men agreed with those orders or not, if they came from a superior authority they would have to be carried out, and they were carried out. At the depots to which they were sent, like Brecon, in a place barely accommodating 500 men, 2,000 men were lying all over the barrack square, without any sort of shelter or covering. I have seen men come back from there afterwards, who told me that for eight days their clothes had never been off their backs, that they had to scramble for their food, never had a day's pay, and had no means of buying food for themselves. The orders, as received, were carried out regularly. The flow of recruits naturally became more and more marked as men more thoroughly understood the position of affairs and what had brought us into the War. The national response became stronger and stronger, until at last we were taking men at a thousand a day. These men were ordered to be forwarded at once. Then came the climax on Friday last, when it was ordered that these men should be immediately returned to their homes on the magnificent pay of sixpence a day—men who were earning, as I know of my own knowledge from their employers—from £3 to £4 per week.
I do not think that the War Office authorities, those who are responsible for this state of things, those whose duty it was to lay out the whole plan of raising this New Army, have had any conception of what it means to make a call to this country of a levée en masse of 500,000 men. They have dreamt that it was possible to raise an Army, as under the old method of the recruiting sergeant at the corner of a street collecting corner boys and loafers. They have had no idea of the men who have been coming forward, the finest type of working man in the country. I have every day inspected these men before they were sent off. I have spoken to them and recognised them as the finest fighting material that I have ever seen. They have

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been sent away, and then they have been simply returned like this and left on the streets at sixpence a day. I do not believe that there is even the legal right to send them to the Reserve. These men were not engaged for the Reserve. They were engaged for Colour Service and nothing else, and therefore these men, I hold, are entitled to the full pay. It is only 1s. 9d. a day, and that for men with families who have been earning anything from £1 to £4 a week is not a very great luxury. As an example of the condition of things which I found in my own county when I went down from here on the 10th of August, I may state that there was a young officer who has been ten years out of the Service and never had anything to do with recruiting, who was appointed as a recruiting officer. He had allotted to him, as a War Office appointment and not an appointment by the local authorities, a medical officer and an old paid pensioner. That was the staff which was to collect the recruits from this district, and all of them were aliens. Not one of them had any knowledge whatever of the country. They certainly could never have spoken Welsh, though perhaps that was not absolutely necessary. But is was necessary that they should know something about the conditions of life of the people whom they were going to ask to serve. I say nothing against them. They did their best, and on that 10th August they succeeded in capturing one recruit. On the following day that was all swept away, and the record was eighty-two, and it continued to advance by leaps and bounds simply because there was a reasonable comprehensive scheme laid out, and people knew what they were doing. There has never been a comprehensive scheme laid out by the War Office, and the result has been a collapse as great as, or worse than, anything which we saw in the same institution during the South African War.
As I have said, in the letter which I read to the House just now, I feel a personal responsibility. I have given my time day and night for the last four weeks. I know' that I am known through the county, and people have been kind enough, irrespective of party or class or anything else, to rally round me and help. I have had a staff of thirty or forty ladies or gentlemen doing the work of recruiting, making out regis-
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tration papers and so on during all that time, without demanding a single penny of money. That is the patriotic spirit that has been shown in the country, and the response made by the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman presides is that the men who come up are to have sixpence a day, after they have lost their employment and, in many cases, broken up their homes. I speak with warmth because I feel with warmth. I can only say that it this is to be the beginning, God help us before we are through with what has to be done! If this is to be an example of the organisation now at the War Office, it is time that the Secretary of State, who has the reputation of being a good organiser, should vindicate that reputation. I trust that we may hear something to assure the House that these men, who are now sent back disappointed and are row without homes, will have something done for them. I have made arrangements that, as far as possible, these men are to be fed and helped in every way, and, moreover, I do not propose that they should be allowed to drift back to casual employment, or anything of that sort. I am making arrangements that these men should be assembled and drilled, and the only difficulty that I have is that I fear that I am not authorised to pay these men. If the War Office would realise that counties have their administration, that they have an efficient administration, and that that administration can be trusted, I think that we should then get on a great deal better. If I had been authorised to pay these men their full pay daily during the time when they are away, they would be doing this work and they would be more fit to do what is required when they are sent for. But to think that it is only a few panjandrums at the War Office who can manage these things, and that these men must be sent back or to some of these concentration camps, is an absurdity. I regret that at such a time as this it should be my duty to raise a question which in any way casts reflection on any Department of the State, but it was my duty, and I have discharged that duty.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. H. J. Tennant): I should like at the outset to be allowed to thank my hon. and gallant Friend for the services which he has given to the State

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during the last three or four weeks in obtaining recruits for the British Army. I am quite sure he must have found difficulty in overcoming his natural reluctance to raise a matter of this kind in regard to the administration of a great Department of the State—a Department which is perhaps more, or, at any rate, is as much, in the public eye as any Department of His Majesty's Government. It has been working at high pressure for five or six weeks, and it has accomplished as much, if not more, than it has ever been able to accomplish at any similar time during the whole history of this country. I cannot help thinking that my hon. and gallant Friend, feeling strongly, as he admits he does, has used expressions of a character which he may regret. At any rate, I regret the somewhat strong language which he has used. The country has seen with a pride, which, I think, must be felt in every breast in this House, certainly in quarters responsible for the government of the country, the extremely patriotic response of the nation to the demand which has been made upon it by the Secretary of State for War. The inrush of recruits, the patriotic answer given by the nation, have been most remarkable and most gratifying—a statement with which, I am sure, the House will agree.
My hon. and gallant Friend remarked that the War Office apparently felt that they were enlisting corner boys and the dregs of the population into the ranks of the Army. He never made a greater mistake in his life. We knew, and we know, that we have been, and are, enlisting into our new Army the very best type of British men, and we, at the War Office, are most grateful to the country for the response which it has made. My hon. and gallant Friend talks about the utter failure of the authorities, but I think he might have at least realised the fact that we have set up throughout the country an absolutely new and improvised recruiting machinery, by which we have been able, in nine cases out of ten, to deal with enormous numbers of recruits in a manner which has not led to such complaints as my hon. and gallant Friend has brought before this House We have heard nothing of those complaints from other quarters, or only in some few instances, and it would
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appear that all those cases have been unfortunately concentrated in the constituency of my hon. and gallant Friend. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I do not say that there have not been other instances. Of course I am prepared to admit that there have been others, but it would appear that the greater number have been concentrated in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's constituency, and I am perfectly prepared to stand in a white sheet in regard to those cases. I feel sure I shall have the kind indulgence of the House when I say that, where thousands and thousands of men are coming in, after all those who have to deal with such numbers are only human.
In regard to what has been said about pay, this is absolutely the first time I have heard of any complaint having been made in regard to it. In reference to food, I believe it to be true that in certain cases the food has been badly cooked and badly served. The food was of the best possible quality, and I believe there has been no case brought to the notice of any hon. Gentleman here, and certainly not to the notice of the authorities at the War Office, in which there has been any complaint made as to the quality of the food. Of course food which is badly cooked and badly served cannot have the nourishing qualities which good food properly cooked possesses. I think that my hon. and gallant Friend, when he speaks about the utter failure of the Department at this time of great responsibility, and with this great inrush of recruits, is really not doing justice to his case. May I deal with the order sent out by the Secretary of State for War a few days ago, stating that where this tremendous congestion has taken place the congestion might be relieved by sending the soldiers to the Reserve, and paying them what he calls sixpence a day. In order that we may know exactly where the recruits were to be found they could put them in the Reserve, and could bring them back again as soon as the congestion had been relieved. In his earlier remarks my hon. and gallant Friend said that he himself had made a proposition of a very similar kind, namely, that recruiting agents were to take the names and addresses of the men who were to be called upon as vacancies occurred.
Sir IVOR HERBERT: There is a great deal of difference between that and allowing men to remain in their homes after having been duly registered and possibly tested, and all the more so, if they have been receiving some pay, thinking they were to remain where they were until they were called up—allowing them to sell everything they had and give up their homes altogether, going away in the belief that they were being sent to the front, and then

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to send them back to a place where they are literally on the streets, while their only redress is sixpence a day.
It being half an hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. DEPUTY-STEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July.
Adjourned at Twenty-one Minutes before Six o'clock, till to-morrow (Thursday) at a Quarter before Three o'clock.

  Irish Live Stock Industry.
  Irish Live Stock Industry.
Preamble
The Earl of MINTO—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

THE WAR—INDIA'S SUPPORT.
*THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I think it will be of interest to the House if I state what has happened in reference to the wonderful series of offers of assistance and support which have been received from the Indian Empire, and the response which has been made to those offers. In the first instance—although it is, of course, not the first in order of date—I will read to the House a Message which His Majesty has sent to the Princes and peoples of India. The King-Emperor's Message is as follows—
"To THE PRINCES AND PEOPLES OF MY INDIAN EMPIRE:
"During the past few weeks the peoples of My whole Empire at Home and Overseas have moved with one mind and purpose to confront and overthrow an unparalleled assault upon the continuity of civilisation and the peace of mankind.
"The calamitous conflict is not of My seeking. My voice has been cast throughout on the side of peace. My Ministers earnestly strove to allay the causes of strife and to appease differences with which My Empire was not concerned. Had I stood aside when in defiance of pledges to which My Kingdom was a party the soil of Belgium was violated, and her cities laid desolate, when the very life of the French nation was threatened with extinction, I should have sacrificed My honour and given to destruction the liberties of My Empire and of mankind. I rejoice that every part of the Empire is with me in this decision.
"Paramount regard for treaty faith and the pledged word of rulers and peoples is the common heritage of England and of India.
"Among the many incidents that have marked the unanimous uprising of the populations of My Empire in defence of its unity and integrity, nothing has moved me more than the passionate devotion to My Throne
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expressed both by My Indian subjects and by the Feudatory Princes and the Ruling Chiefs of India, and their prodigal offers of their lives and their resources in the cause of the Realm. Their one-voiced demand to be foremost in the conflict has touched My heart, and has inspired to the highest issues the love and devotion which, as I well know, have ever linked My Indian subjects and myself. I recall to mind India's gracious message to the British nation of goodwill and fellowship, which greeted My return in February 1912 after the solemn ceremony of My Coronation Durbar at Delhi, and I find in this hour of trial a full harvest and a noble fulfilment of the assurance given by you that the destinies of Great Britain and India are indissolubly linked."
I received yesterday a summary of offers of service and money made in India to the Viceroy, of which I think it will be interesting if I convey the general gist to your Lordships. The rulers of the Indian Native States, numbering nearly 700 altogether, have with one accord rallied to the defence of the Empire and offered their personal services and the resources of their States. From among the many Princes and nobles who volunteered for service in the war the Viceroy has chosen the Chiefs of Jodhpur, Bikaner, Kishangarh, Rutlam, Sachin, and Patiala, Sir Pertab Singh (Regent of Jodhpur), the Heir Apparent of Bhopal, and a brother of the Maharaja of Cooch Behar, together with other Princes belonging to noble families. It will, I know, be of interest to your Lordships' House, where he has so many personal friends, to know that the veteran Sir Pertab Singh, in spite of his seventy years, refused to be denied the right of serving the King-Emperor in person and is himself going to the front, accompanied by his great-nephew the reigning Maharaja, who is only sixteen years of age and who was brought up at Wellington College and has also, perhaps, become known to some of your Lordships. These have already joined the Expeditionary Force. There are some other Princes, the Chiefs of Jaora and Dholpur, and the Maharaja of Gwalior—also known to many of your Lordships—who, together with the Heir Apparent of Palampur, were, to their great regret, prevented from quitting their States.
There are twenty-seven States in India that maintain Imperial Service Troops,

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and immediately on the outbreak of war the services of all of those corps were placed at the disposal of the Viceroy. From twelve of those States the Viceroy has accepted contingents of Infantry, Cavalry, Sappers, and transport, and also the Bikaner Camel Corps; and some of those have already embarked on active service. Further than that, a number of Chiefs, entirely of their own volition, combined to provide a hospital ship, to be named "The Loyalty," for the use of the Expeditionary Force. I think I mentioned to the House before that the Maharaja of Mysore had placed a sum of Rs. 50 lakhs at the disposal of the Government for expenditure in connection with the Expeditionary Force. The Viceroy adds that the Maharaja of Gwalior, besides sharing in the expenses of the hospital ship—the idea of which was started by himself and that eminent lady the Begun of Bhopal—has placed large sums of money at the disposal of the Government of India for the purpose of providing a great number of horses as remounts. From Mahomedan Loharu in the Punjab and from two States in Baluchistan there are offers of camels with drivers to be supplied and maintained by the Chiefs and the Sardars of those States. The Maharaja of Rewa, a distinguished Chief in Central India, has offered his troops, his treasury, and even his private jewellery to be placed at the disposal of His Majesty the King-Emperor. I ought to add that a number of Chiefs, the Maharaja of Kashmir, the Maharaja of Bundi, besides the Maharaja of Gwalior, the Maharaja of Indore, and the Maharaja of Orchha have besides independently subscribed large sums to the Fund of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. The Maharaja of Kashmir gave a large subscription to the Indian Fund, and, what will seem to your Lordships rather a new departure in the case of an Indian Prince, presided at a meeting of 20,000 people held at Srinagar and himself delivered a stirring speech, as the result of which large subscriptions were collected. The Maharaja Holkar offers, free of charge, all the horses belonging to his State forces which the Government may find it convenient to accept. The Nizam of Hyderabad has made a similar offer, as also have the Jam of Jamnagar and some of the other Bombay Chiefs. The Viceroy adds that every Chief in the Bombay Presidency has placed the whole of the resources of his State at the disposal of Government.
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Then we go further afield. The Mehtar of Chitral—a name which evokes memories of quite a different kind—and the various tribes in the Khyber Agency have sent loyal messages and offers of support to His Excellency's Government. All States, however remote, and some of the quite small States, have expressed their desire to give such assistance as they can. The Viceroy goes on to say, very truly, that last but not least, outside India altogether, generous offers of assistance were received from the Nepal Durbar. The Nepal Government have placed the whole of their military resources at the disposal of the British Government, and the Prime Minister, who is known also I am sure to some of your Lordships because he has been here, offered a sum of Rs. 3 lakhs to the Viceroy for the purchase of machine guns for the equipment of some of the British Gurkha regiments, and also gave large donations from his private purse to the Indian Relief Fund and to the Prince of Wales's Fund. He also offered Rs. 3,000 for the purchase of machine guns for the 4th Gurkha Rifles.
Then we go still further on to the Heights. We find that the Dalai Lama has offered 1,000 Tibetan troops for service under the British Government. He also states that innumerable Lamas all over Tibet are offering up prayers for the success of British arms. In fact, there is only one spirit and one movement over the whole of India. The Viceroy has received thousands of telegrams and letters from every quarter expressing loyalty and the desire to assist; and the local administrations have also received a vast number. They have come from every community, from all manner of different associations, religious and political, from all the different creeds, and from countless numbers of individuals offering their resources or their personal services. The Viceroy mentions in his telegram sonic typical examples: the All India Moslem League and a number of other Moslem associations in Bengal and Rangoon; the Trustees of the Aligarh. College; others from Behar and Calcutta; another from the Khoja community, who are followers of a gentleman also well known to your Lordships, the Aga Khan; the Punjab Moslem League, the Behar Landholders' Association, the Taluqdars of Oudh, the Association of the Punjab Chiefs; the Provincial Congresses of Madras and of the United Provinces, which are branches of the India Congress,

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which is well known by name at any rate to most of your Lordships; and the Punjab Association representing the orthodox Sikhs, and the Parsee community of Bombay.
There has also been a number of enthusiastic offers of medical help, of some of which I hope we shall be able gratefully to avail ourselves. The Zemindars of Madras offered 500 horses at quite an early stage in the proceedings; and the Imperial Indian Relief Fund, which was started, of course quite independently of any fund here, for the relief of distress caused in India itself, has been responded to with great enthusiasm and vigour. There were a certain number of Indian Chiefs in Europe at the time. These have not been any more backward in offering their assistance and help. I find that of those who were in these parts the Maharaja and the Maharani Maji Sahiba of Bharatpur subscribed to the Indian Relief Fund and offered the whole resources of their State to Government. The Raja of Akalkot, a Bombay Chief, offered his personal service; and the Raja of Pudukota placed his entire resources at the disposal of Government. The Gaekwar of Baroda placed at our disposal the whole of his troops and the resources of his State. The son of the Mir of Khairpur, a Mahomedan magnate in North-West India, offered his personal service. And I find also that of the British Indian residents in this country a great number, young and old, have shown their one desire to offer some form of assistance—personal service, or medical service, or some form of contribution to the Empire—in a most loyal and generous manner.
This afternoon I received a telegram from the Viceroy describing what happened yesterday at the meeting of his Legislative Council at Simla. The Viceroy tells me that, in opening the proceedings, the members stood while he conveyed to them the Message from the King—the Message which I read to the House at the commencement of my remarks. The Viceroy made a speech, in which he said that he was sure he was expressing the views of the Council and of the whole of India in assuring His Majesty of unflinching loyalty and devotion. He went on to dwell upon the causes which led up to the war and the wicked and wanton manner in which it had been thrust upon the British Empire, and he explained the wholehearted efforts which had been made by
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Sir Edward Grey for the preservation of peace so long as such preservation was possible. He expressed, of course on his own account also, the warmest gratitude for the attitude of the people of India which has been described in what I have just stated to your Lordships. Then when the Viceroy had concluded, Mr. Chitnavis, representing the Indian community, expressed the gratefulness which they all felt for His Majesty's Message, and asked the Viceroy to assure His Majesty that the whole country was with him in this hour of crisis and would loyally and devotedly do everything possible to ensure the success of the British arms. He then moved the following Resolution—
"That in view of the great war involving most momentous issues now in progress in Europe into which our August Sovereign has been forced to enter by obligations of honour and duty to preserve the neutrality guaranteed by treaty and the liberties of a friendly State, the members of this Council, as voicing the feeling that animates the whole of the people of India, desire to give expression to their feelings of unswerving loyalty and enthusiastic devotion to their King Emperor and an assurance of their unflinching support to the British Government. They desire at the same time to express the opinion that the people of India, in addition to the military assistance now being afforded by India to the Empire, would wish to share in the heavy financial burden now imposed by the war on the United Kingdom, and request the Government of India to take this view into consideration and thus to demonstrate the unity of India with the Empire. They request His Excellency the President to be so good as to convey the substance of this Resolution to His Majesty the King-Emperor and His Majesty's Government."
That was seconded by one of the principal Mahomedan leaders, the Raja of Mahmudabad, who made an important speech. It was supported by one of the Punjab Sardars, and was further supported in an eloquent speech—the Viceroy states—by Mr. Malabiya, one of the leading representatives of Indian opinion. It was also supported by a distinguished Parsee gentleman, Sir F. Azullbhoy Currimbhoy, who speaks for Bombay; by Mr. Ghuznavi, speaking for the Mahomedans of Eastern Bengal, and by Mr. Banerjee, who is well known as an exponent of liberal views in Bengal. Mr. Banerjee, in supporting the Resolution, pointed out that—
"It was the duty of the Council to focus the sentiments of support and enthusiastic loyalty by which every province of the Empire was animated. They desired to tell the world, the enemies of England and all else whom it might concern, that their loyalty was not lip-deep, but that behind the serried ranks of one of the finest armies of the world were the vast and multitudinous races and peoples of India bound together as one man."

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The Viceroy replied, and the Resolution was carried without a single dissentient.
I think, my Lords, that we must all agree that this demonstration of true and heartfelt loyalty in India to the King-Emperor and to the Government is one of the most gratifying facts as the outcome of the present war. As we all know, the devotion and the offers of support from the self-governing Dominions of the Crown have been not less striking. Those Governments are manned by people of our own blood, with countless memories and traditions which centre round these islands. But it is, perhaps, even more striking, certainly not less gratifying, that those who speak for the various races in India—races which represent a civilisation of almost untold antiquity; races which have been remarkable in arms, in arts, and in the science of government—should in so whole-hearted a manner rally round the British Government, and, most of all, round the person of their Emperor at such a moment as this; and I am certain that this House will desire to express, through those of us who are entitled to speak for it, its appreciation of their attitude and our recognition of the part that they have played and are playing.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, we have listened to an announcement from the noble Marquess which seemed to us to be one of surpassing interest—an announcement which I venture to say will prove to be of historic importance in the annals of the British Empire. And let me, before I go further, express the admiration with which we listened to the words in which His Majesty the King was pleased to acknowledge the offers which his Government had received from the peoples and Princes of India. I do not think it would have been possible to express in simpler, more dignified, or more appropriate language the feelings which animate us at this moment and which lead us to embark in this great struggle with absolute confidence in the justice of our cause. The noble Marquess spoke of the "wonderful series of offers" which have been received from the peoples of India. It is indeed a wonderful series of offers, and they were doubly appreciated by those of us who have been concerned with Indian affairs as we listened to the noble Marquess while he travelled over, not only the Indian Empire in the more restricted sense of the
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term, but the confines of the States which adjoin it, and described to us how one and all of them had come forward at this critical moment to assure us of their support in whatever form they were able to provide it.
Quoting from a speech in support of the Resolution passed in the Legislative Council the other day, the noble Marquess spoke of the "multitudinous races and peoples" of India. It is indeed a great thing that those multitudinous races and peoples should have joined in this movement without reference to geographical limits, to religious distinctions, to political divisions, or to differences of race. We know how deep those cleavages are, and how often it is that they separate one part of India acutely from another. But in this case they were not allowed to prevail, and I am sure that the result will produce an immense impression not only upon the people of this country but upon all who, no matter in what part of the world, are anxious spectators of the great struggle which is now proceeding.
The noble Marquess will not think it unnatural on my part if I say that I listened with special interest to that part of his speech in which he gave us an account of the manner in which the ruling Chiefs of India have come forward at this moment. There was a time when I had the honour of enjoying the friendship mid intimacy of a number of those Chiefs; and I left India deeply convinced of the sincerity of their desire to bear, whenever the opportunity was offered to them, a useful and honourable part in the affairs of the Empire. Their generosity is proverbial. The word "generosity" is often coupled with the word "princely," and in India, as the noble Marquess knows, we have every reason to be aware of what "princely generosity" means. But in this case, great as that generosity has been, they have given us a great deal more. I well remember the pride which these great Chiefs and rulers took in the Imperial Service Corps instituted in the time of my predecessor, Lord Dufferin; and I know that it was their ambition that those Imperial Service troops should not merely be, as they were, extraordinarily efficient and smart on parade, but that they should be given a chance of fighting alongside of our troops in the cause of the Empire. I heard with great interest the noble Marquess's catalogue of the Princes who are

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to accompany the Indian Force on this campaign—with some of them I have the honour to be acquainted, others are the sons of fathers who were well known to me—and I may perhaps be permitted to echo what he said with regard to one whom I am able to describe as an old personal friend of my own. I mean the Regent of Jodhpur, better known to his intimates as Sir Pertab Singh. I also heard with special satisfaction the noble Marquess's account of the support which he was receiving from the Maharaja of Nepal. We owe a great debt to the Nepal Government, for it is with their assistance and concurrence that we are able to raise those magnificent Gurkhas, of whom I am glad to know a certain number will accompany the Indian Expedition.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Seven battalions.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am glad to hear that. I doubt, my Lords, whether every one in this country realises how great a thing it is that these ruling Chiefs who have come forward in this way upon our side are doing, or how important a position they occupy in their own country. I wonder, for example, whether every one realises that the Maharaja of Mysore, to whose munificent gift the noble Marquess referred, rules over a population which exceeds in numbers the whole of the population of Sweden. I wonder whether every one calls to mind that the Maharaja of Gwalior has more subjects than the King of Denmark; or that the Nizam of Hyderabad governs a people twice as numerous as the people of the Netherlands and three times as numerous as the people of Ireland. It is no small thing that these rulers, standing where they do in our Indian system, should have come forward without exception and given such practical proof of their desire to help us. I venture on the part of those who sit on this side of the House to congratulate the noble Marquess on the manner in which the India Office has been supported at this critical time, and I add to that our congratulations to the Viceroy to whom, at a moment when he must have many sad preoccupations, the magnificent response of the people of India must bring consolation and encouragement. I am sure it will be the desire of the House, in whatever way may be fitting, that our cordial thanks should be conveyed to the people of India and to the Indian Chiefs who have stood by us in so conspicuous a manner.

THE CIVIL SERVICE AND THE COLOURS.
*LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will be prepared to grant facilities for young Civil Servants to join the Colours provided that they can find suitable substitutes among retired members of the Civil Service, or, I might almost add, other persons who could be accepted. The Secretary of State for War has declared that he requires 500,000 men. Mr. Asquith, in that glorious speech which has been ringing like a clarion call to arms throughout the British Isles and indeed over the seas wherever the English language is spoken, emphasised the same thing; but he went a step further. He told us that he wanted the best men. The day before that great speech was made I ventured to write a letter to The Times, in which I suggested something of the nature of what I have put in my Question on the Paper to-day. That letter has brought me an amount of correspondence which it is far beyond my powers to answer or even to acknowledge, but it shows that there are scores upon scores of young Civil Servants who are burning to join the Colours and who feel acutely the privation, if I may so call it, of being obliged to remain at home.
Unlike those "heroes" who prefer staying at home and playing with balls of various sizes to going where the bullets are flying and the shrapnel and shell are hissing in the air, these Civil Servants are burning to do something for their country in this hour of need. And you can hardly imagine a better class of men from whom to draw recruits such as were asked for by Mr. Asquith. They are many of them University men, some have gained high honours, and all of them have had the highest possible education; they are just the men who would be able to supply what we are told is in these days the greatest necessity in the case of every soldier—the brains behind the rifle. It is quite evident that those who could be drawn upon for active service must of necessity be the younger men. Nobody knows better than I do that you would throw a Department out of gear if you took away from it those men who have to perform the most responsible work. But there are hundreds of young men who have recently joined the Civil Service, whose work is really such as could be taught to an educated man in a very

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short time. And if, in addition to being educated, the men who came forward had been accustomed to business and had been trained in offices, then the senior clerks in the various Departments would be able to make of these volunteers most useful men in a very short time. Those from whom I have had letters expressing a desire to give their services in this way comprise old Civil Servants, old bank managers, solicitors, men of letters, men of business—all of them men whom, I repeat, any senior clerk would be able to train in a week to do all the business that would be required of them.
The men who might join in this way as volunteers, if ever this proposal should come to anything, must, of course, be content to take the humblest duties. They must be content to be the hewers of wood and drawers of water for the Department. They cannot undertake the more responsible work. But I feel that you have in them a reservoir of good material that could be turned to account at very short notice. And by adopting this proposal you would have enabled these young Civil Servants to avoid the stigma, under which they now are, of staying at home and doing nothing, and you would have conferred upon the older men who are willing to come forward and take their places the inestimable boon of feeling that they were doing something for their country when their country was in dire need. The spirit which animates all the men who have written to me is one of the highest patriotism. Indeed, it is something beyond patriotism—it is very reasoned patriotism. They do not believe that if they come forward to help in this matter they will be helping France alone, or Belgium alone, or even England alone; they feel that they will be helping to preserve the liberty, the freedom, and the independence of Europe and of the world at large, and doing their best to avoid the world falling under that militarism to which Prussia and Germany are at this moment slaves. If my proposal comes to anything, no doubt the details will have to be arranged. At present it is a very crude and undigested proposal. But I venture to lay it before His Majesty's Government in all humility, asking them to turn it over in their minds and see whether they cannot do something in this matter to meet the wishes of the younger Civil Servants of the Crown.
*THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I am sure that everybody will sympathise with the spirit which has animated my noble friend in laying this particular proposal before the House. At the same time I think I had better say at once that it does not appear to me possible to lay down any general regulation of the kind which I think the noble Lord desires to see carried into effect. It seems to us that in a matter of this sort each particular case has to be dealt with on its merits by those who are responsible for an particular Department. As a matter of fact the heads of the various Departments, as I am informed—and I can certainly speak with confidence about my own Department—have done what they could to give facilities for joining one branch or other of the military forces to which such men could be posted to those in their Offices who seem particularly fitted for the service. This is altogether apart from the considerable depletion which the noble Lord knows has taken place of the Public Departments, including those who have been attached to some part or other of the Military Service, either the Territorial Force or some other branch, and who have already had military training.
Those to whom the noble Lord refers, I suppose, are Civil Servants who have had no military training, and who at any rate if they were to become officers would have to undergo a very long course of training, in spite of their special capacity and general ability, before they could be fitted to go to the front. And I cannot help thinking that the noble Lord rather overstated the case when he spoke of these men who were left behind in Public Departments as doing nothing. Even at this time it has to be remembered that there are other absolutely necessary forms of public service besides those which involve service in the firing line. We all of us, of course, fix our main interest for the time upon those who are actually engaged in the combatant service, but there is a great deal of national work of a different kind to be done. And I should like to remind my noble friend of this, that a large part of the work which is being thrown upon these Civil Servants—very often extra work involving overtime, which is most cheerfully undertaken by them—is directly concerned with the supply services and with countless incidents arising out of the war, work which, with

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all respect to my noble friend, cannot be done with anything like decent efficiency by people, hank managers or anybody else, however willing, called in from outside without the particular training which comes from experience in the Civil Service.
There are, of course, cases in which, as the noble Lord has pointed out, a young man has just joined the Civil Service, has hardly learned his job at all, and might just as well, perhaps, take to soldiering. In some of those cases I have no doubt that permission has been given to undertake it. I think that if the noble Lord gets the figures he will find that the number of those who have gone from different branches of the Public Service to join one branch or another of the fighting services has been considerable, and it is important to bear that in mind in considering the whole question. In addition to this, a great number of retired members of the Civil Service have voluntarily come to the help of their old Departments, affording the most cheerful service, which they would be quite prepared, if allowed, to give gratuitously, and have done a great deal to fill up the gaps which have been left by those who have gone. I can assure the noble Lord that we have not neglected this side of the question. I do not myself believe that anything like a general depletion of the Civil Service—I mean supposing all the men under thirty-five years of age were enlisted in some force or another, which I suppose is what the noble Lord has in his mind—and the casting of these men en masse into the ranks of the Army would be to the public benefit. And for two reasons. In the first place, those particular men, as I have ventured to point out, are doing more valuable national work in many cases as they are; and, in the second place, there is, happily, no lack of young men coming forward to bring the National Forces up to at any rate a million if that were thought necessary. That being so I confess I cannot hold out any hope to the noble Lord of any general or dramatic movement in the direction which he indicates, although
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I sympathise with his general object and can assure him that so far as individual cases are concerned every possible consideration is given to them.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think the reply of the noble Marquess has met my noble friend very fairly. The noble Marquess tells us that the Civil Service has already undergone a considerable amount of depletion owing to the calls made upon members of it who belong to the Territorial Force or to other branches of the Service. But, in addition to that, we gather from the noble Marquess that in special cases and where the Civil Servant can be spared without serious Departmental inconvenience leave has been given by the chief of the Department to the gentleman in question to join the Army. That seems to me as far as the Government can reasonably be expected to go. I must add this one observation, that I hope that those junior members of the Civil Service who cannot be spared, and who are, perhaps, as we have been told, working overtime, and naturally feel military aspirations at a moment like this, will remain unmoved by any one who attempts to taunt them with shirking their duty because they stick to their posts. The problem which every one has to consider at this moment is what is the best form of service that he can give to his country, and I will venture to say that gentlemen of this description can probably do better work for their country by adhering to their Departmental duties than by asking to be enrolled as raw recruits in the Army. The sudden transfer of half-a-dozen efficient clerks from a Public Office would probably do an amount of harm by the disorganisation of the Office which would far outweigh the advantage which could be gained by the addition of so small a number to the volume of recruits whom we are now taking in every day.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.