Sitting of 4 August 1914

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Great Northern Railway Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered:—
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
King's Consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Porthcawl Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
Ordered, That Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly considered, as amended.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Wimbledon Corporation Bill [Lords],
Ordered, That Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly considered, as amended; an Amendment made to the Bill.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Glasgow Corporation (Tramways, etc.) Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Poole Harbour Bill [Lords] (by Order),
As amended, considered:—
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
King's Consent signified; Bill read the-third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order),
Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Kirkcaldy Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Kirkcaldy Corporation." Presented by Mr. MCKINNON WOOD; and ordered, under Section 7 of the Act, to be considered To-morrow.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE.
Account presented of Receipts and Expenditure of the Paymaster-General on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature in respect of the Funds of Suitors of the Court in the year ended 28th February, 1914, and Account of the National Debt Commissioners for the same period in respect of Funds held by them on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 412.]
UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA.
Copy presented of Correspondence relating to the Natives Land Act, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

BANKRUPTCY.
Copy presented of Thirty-first General Annual Report by the Board of Trade,

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under Section 131 of the Bankruptcy Act, 1883 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 413.]

SESSIONAL RETURNS.

  ADJOURNMENT MOTIONS.
  Return ordered, "of Motions for Adjournment under Standing Order No. 10, showing the date of such Motion, the name of the Member proposing the

  (a) Closure.

  Date when Closure moved, and by whom.

  Question before House or Committee when moved.

  Whether in House or Committee.

  Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Speaker or Chairman.

  Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion.

  Result of Motion and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  5.

  6.

  and (2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:—

  Date when Closure moved, and by whom.

  Question before Committee when moved.

  Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by Speaker or Chairman.

  Assent withheld because, Whether assent given in the opinion of the to Motion or with Chair, a decision would held by Chairman, shortly be arrived at without that Motion.

  Result of Motion and, if a Division, Number for and against.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  5.

  and (3) of Bills in respect of certain stages of which the power of selecting Amendments was conferred upon the Chair by Order of the House, under the following heads:—

  selection of Amendments.

  Title of Bill.

  Date of Order of the House.

  Stages of Bill in respect of which power to select Amendments was conferred upon the Chair.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 265, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]

  PUBLIC BILLS.
  Return ordered "of the number of public Bills, distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1914; showing the number which received the Royal Assent; the number which were passed by this House, but not by the House of Lords; the number passed by the House of Lords but not by this House; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills as did not receive the
  definite matter of urgent public importance, and the result of any Division taken thereon during Session 1914 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 264, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]

  CLOSURE OF DEBATE.
  Return ordered "respecting application of Standing Order No. 26 (Closure of Debate) during Session 1914 (1) in the House and in Committee of the Whole House, under the following heads:—
  Royal Assent were dropped or postponed and rejected in either House of Parliament (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.93, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]

  PUBLIC PETITIONS.
  Return ordered, "of the number of Public Petitions presented and printed in Session 1914; with the total number of signatures in that year (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.94, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]
  SELECT COMMITTEES.
  Return ordered, "of the number of Select Committees appointed in Session 1914 and the Court of Referees; the subjects of inquiry; the names of the Members appointed to serve on each, and of the Chairman of each; the number of days each Committee met, and the number of days each Member attended; the total expense of the attendance of witnesses at each Select Committee; and the name of the Member who moved for such Select Committee; also the total number of Members who served on Select Committees (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.95, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]
  STANDING COMMITTEES.
  Return ordered, "for the Session of 1914, of (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the four Standing Committees appointed under Standing Order No. 47, showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings at "which he was present, and the number of divisions in which he took part; and (2) the number of Bills considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of days on which each Committee sat, and the names of all Bills considered by a Standing Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing, in the case of each Bill, the particular Standing Committee by whom it was considered, the number of days on which it was considered by the Committee, and the number of Members present on each of those days (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.96, of Session 1 913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]
  SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
  Return ordered, "of the number of days on which the House sat in Session 1914, stating for each day the date of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of adjournment; and the total number of hours occupied in the Sittings of the House, and the average time; and showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after eleven p.m.; and the number of entries in each day's Votes and Proceedings (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.97, of Session 1913."—[Mr. Maclean.] Vol. 65.
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Return ordered, "showing, with reference to Session 1914, (1) the number of Sittings at which Government Business had precedence under the Standing Orders during the entire Sitting; (2) the number of Sittings on Tuesdays and Wednesdays at which precedence was given to Government Business up till 8.15 p.m., and to Private Members at 8.15 p.m., and the number of Sittings on Fridays at which Private Members had precedence under the Standing Orders; (3) the number of Sittings at which Government Business was given precedence under a special order of the House during the entire Sitting; (4) the number of Saturday Sittings; (5) the total number of Sittings at which Government Business had precedence; (6) the total number of days on which the House sat; and (7) the number of days on which Business of Supply was considered (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 266, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]

  PRIVATE BILLS AND PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  Return ordered "of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into the House of Commons and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1914, classed according to the following subjects:—Railways; Tramways; Tramroads; Subways; Canals and Navigations; Roads and Bridges; Water; Waterworks; Gas; Gas and Water; Lighting and Improvement; Local Legislation; Corporations, etc. (not relating to Local Legislation or to Lighting and Improvement Schemes); Ports, Piers, Harbours, and Docks; Churches, Chapels, and Burying Grounds; Markets and Fairs; Gaols and other County Buildings; Inclosure and Drainage; Estate; Patent; Divorce; and Miscellaneous:
  Of all the Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1914 have been reported on by Committees on Opposed Private Bills or by Committees nominated partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member has served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; the

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  Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been not proved; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed:
  Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which, in Session 1914, have been referred by the Committee of Selection, or by the General Committee on Railway and Canal Bills, to the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, together with the names of the Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member attended:
  And, of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which have been referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.98, of Session 1913)."—[Mr. Maclean.]

LOANS FOR HOUSING PURPOSES (IRELAND).
Return ordered, "showing, for each borough and urban district in Ireland, the total amount of public moneys advanced for Housing Purposes during the thirty years ending the 31st day of March, 1914; the amount of each separate Loan in such period and the year in which the first advance on foot of each such Loan was made: the total principal outstanding on the 1st day of April, 1914, and the total repayment (principal and interest) in year to the 31st day of March, 1914. in respect of each such area; and the rateable valuation of each such area."—[Mr. Patrick O'Brien.]

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND AND HOUSING).
Return ordered, "showing (1) the acreage of land held by each county council in England and Wales, other than the London County Council, distinguishing agricultural land from other land (a) as owners of fee simple; and (b) as leaseholders or otherwise, and the purposes for which the land is used or was acquired.
(2) the number of dwelling-houses provided by each county council (including the Standing Joint Committee) in England
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and Wales, other than the London County Council, for housing (a) small holders; (b) policy; (c) county council employés; and (d) other persons, since the 1st day of January, 1906; and
(3) the number of dwelling houses in rural districts for the provision of which loans have been sanctioned under Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, since the 1st day of January, 1906."—[Mr. Peto.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Egypt.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Egyptian Government has allowed "Wadinnel," one of the suppressed papers, to re-appear without giving any reasons for such exceptional treatment; whether the Egyptian Government intends to consider the case of other suppressed newspapers; and whether he will give instructions to His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General in Egypt so to modify the Press law in that country as to enable newspapers to defend themselves in open trial before suppression?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Acland): I am making enquiries as to this case, and will inform my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. Kyriakos Mikhail, who represented the Coptic cause in this country some time ago, has been refused per mission to start a newspaper; and, if so, why?
  Mr. ACLAND: The fact is as stated by the hon. Member. Mr. Mikhail applied for permission to publish a newspaper in two languages, but his application was refused, as no such publications are allowed by the Egyptian Government.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether an arrangement has been concluded between the Italian Government and the Senoussi of the Djarabub and Kufra oases; and whether there is a prospect now of the delimitation of the western frontier of Egypt being undertaken?
  Mr. ACLAND: I have no knowledge of such an arrangement, and there is no immediate prospect of the delimitation in question being undertaken.

  INDIA.

    PRESS ACT.
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India in how many cases appeals have been brought in Courts of Law against orders of forfeiture made by the Executive Government under the Press Act, and whether any of these appeals have yet been successful?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Charles Roberts): So far as the Secretary of State is aware, there have been five such appeals, all of which were unsuccessful.
    Mr. E. HARVEYasked the Under-Secretary for India whether he will give particulars of the case brought by the owners of the Rifah-i-Am steam press, Lahore, appealing against an order of forfeiture made under the Indian Press Act of 1910; whether he is aware that the appeal was dismissed on technical grounds as being barred by time, and that this was a result that even the lawyers who advised the applicants had not been able to anticipate; whether the loyalty and honesty of purpose of this newspaper was admitted by the Governor of the Punjab; and whether, in view of the circumstances of this ease, the Secretary of State will advise that some relief should be granted?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The case referred to was one in which the printing Press made an application under Section 17 of the Press Act to set aside an order of forfeiture under Section 4. The Chief Court of the Punjab, which heard the application, rejected it on the ground that it was time-barred under Section 17, which requires that such application must be made within two months from the date of the order of forfeiture. The terms of that section are explicit, and admit only of the interpretation put upon them by the Chief Court. The Secretary of State has no information with regard to the third part of the question, and is not disposed to interfere with the discretion of the Local Government.

    UNIVERSITIES.
    Mr. E. HARVEYasked the Under Secretary for India whether the Government
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    of India are about to introduce legislation on the subject of the management of Indian universities; whether it is proposed to alter the constitution of the syndicates which are the executive authority of the universities, by providing that the members of the syndicate shall be nominated directly by the Government; whether at present such syndicates are partly composed of members elected by the senates of the universities, of which 80 per cent. are already the nominees of the Governor or Lieutenant-Governor of the province concerned; and whether the Government of India have consulted any of the universities in question with regard to these proposals.
    Mr. ROBERTS: The hon. Member will find particulars as to the constitution of the Syndicates in the Sixth Quinquennial Report on Education in India. The Bill to amend the Indian Universities Act does not alter the management of Indian Universities, and, as' regards the Syndicates, merely provides that when a University exercises powers in more than one province the Director of Public Instruction of each such province shall, if the Government so direct, be a Member. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

    RAJA OF COCHIN.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Under Secretary for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the abdication of His Highness the Raja of Cochin?
    Mr. ROBERTS: In September of last year the Raja of Cochin expressed the desire, after eighteen years of arduous and continuous work, of retiring from active participation in worldly affairs and devoting himself to a religious life. His Highness' abdication was accordingly sanctioned by the Government of India, and adequate arrangements have been made by the State for the maintenance of himself and his family. His successor is the first cousin (once removed) of His Highness, and was born in 1858.

    POLICE (PENSIONS).
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary for India whether the Secretary of State is aware that Indian police officers are entitled to no pensions, other than invalid pensions, until they have put in thirty years' service, while officers of the Public Works and Forest Departments, who are similarly recruited in England,

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    are entitled to a first pension after twenty-one and a full pension after twenty-five years' service; and whether the Secretary of State will take steps to remove this grievance concerning which police officers have, without result, memorialised the Government of India?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I would beg to refer the hon. Member to the answer given him on the 15th July, 1912, and to that given to the hon. and gallant Member for East Leicestershire on 7th January, 1913.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary for India, whether the Secretary of State will, as he is not prepared to take any immediate action to remove the grievances of police officers in India, forward copies of all Questions asked in the House relating to their grievances to the President of the Royal Commission on the Indian Public Services for consideration.
    Mr. ROBERTS: The officers themselves have had the opportunity of presenting their case to the Royal Commission, and I doubt whether the questions asked in the House would add appreciably to the information in the possession of that body.

    SUICIDE BY BURNING AMONG GIRLS (BENGAL).
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary for India whether the Government of India attributes to any particular cause the present prevalence of suicide by burning among girl wives in Bengal; and, if so, to what cause?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The Secretary of State has had no official report on the subject.

    OPIUM TRAFFIC.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State has information to the effect that, following upon the adoption of the Government's present opium policy, the illicit possession, sale, and use of cocaine in India has largely increased; and whether he is aware that one Nzer Hussein Raja Hussein was, on 8th July, sentenced in Bombay to a year's rigorous imprisonment for illicit possession?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The use of cocaine for non-medical purposes has been on the increase in India, as in other countries, but the Secretary of State sees no reason to ascribe this to the opium policy of the
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    Government of India, which continues, so far as internal consumption is concerned, to be one of Excise regulation, as in the past. He has seen a newspaper report of the case referred to in the second part of the question.

    COSMOPOLITAN PRESS.
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the district magistrate of Dehra Dun recently demanded payment of a security of 500 rupees from the owner of the Cosmopolitan Press on the ground that it had changed its premises from one part of the town to another; and whether he will say under what section of the Press Act a magistrate can take security from a press already in existence upon this ground?
    Mr. ROBERTS: The Secretary of State has received no report upon this case, but Section 3 of the Press Act, 1910, read with Section 5 of the Printing Presses and Books Act of 1867 would clearly justify the taking of security from an existing press, the place of which was changed.
    Mr. KINGasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs by what instrument, if any, is His Majesty's Government bound to guarantee Belgium against the violation of her neutrality or against any occupation of her territory.
    Mr. ACLAND: This question was answered by the Secretary of State in his statement in the House of Commons yesterday.
    Mr. KING: Will the reference and explanation of this instrument be given in the papers which are soon to be laid before the House?
    Mr. ACLAND: I will make that suggestion to my right hon. Friend.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.

    NURSING GRANT.
    Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked The chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government nursing grant, to be administered by the Insurance Commissioners through the medium of the insurance committees, will be available only for the nursing of insured persons or such persons and their dependants or, alternatively, whether, seeing that it is provided by the taxpayers generally, it will be available for the nusring of all sick

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    persons within the administrative area of such committees whose means will not admit of the employment of a professional nurse?
    Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN (Lord of the Treasury): The matter is under consideration.

    MEDICAL BENEFIT (SEAMEN).
    Mr. F. HALL (Dulwich)asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether, according to the National Insurance Act, a seaman can only obtain the services of a panel doctor at the port at which he signs on; and, if so, whether he will take steps in the next amending Bill to give facilities for seamen to receive medical benefits and treatment at any port in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. BENN: In the case of seamen who are members of the Seamen's National Society, medical attendance is available in every port in Great Britain, under the special arrangements made by that society. As regards other seamen, it is open to them to avail themselves of the special "travellers'" arrangements, under which medical benefit may be obtained anywhere in Great Britain.

    PANEL DOCTORS.
    Mr. F. HALL (Dulwich)asked what is the total amount of fund which has accumulated in respect of insured persons who have not chosen their doctors under the National Insurance Act, whether any arrangements have been or are proposed to be made with a view to the distribution among panel doctors of such money; how many persons have neglected for any reason to select a doctor; and whether, in view of the fact that in many instances this neglect is due to circumstances beyond the person's control, steps can be taken to use this accumulated sum for the benefit of those who have contributed over a long period and have derived no benefit there from.
    Mr. BENN: As previously stated the whole of the funds available to an Insurance Committee for the remuneration of doctors on the panel fall to be distributed and no accumulation is possible. The rest of the question does not, therefore, arise.

    ACCRINGTON TRADE DISPUTE.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Messrs. Howard and Bollough, an
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    engineering firm at Accrington, locked out all their employés about three weeks ago because of a dispute with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers; if he is aware that the advisory committee have decided that the workpeople who are not in dispute are entitled to unemployed benefit under Part II. of the National Insurance Act, and that the question has been put before the umpire for his decision; and if he can state the cause of the umpire's delay in coming to a decision.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Robertson): My attention has been called to this dispute. About 300 claims for unemployment benefit have been received, and all have been disallowed. In only five cases have appeals against the disallowance been lodged. Two of these appeals were made by workmen in the spindle and flyer department through the National Union of Gas Workers and General Labourers, and three by workmen in the building department and fluted roller department. The cases were heard by the Blackburn Court of Referees on the 23rd July, and the Court, by a majority, recommended that the two appeals of the workmen engaged in the spindle and flyer departments should be allowed, on the ground that there was no dispute between these workmen and the employers, and that the department in question was covered by the proviso to Section 87 (1) of the National Insurance Act. The Board of Trade have declined to accept this recommendation, and have informed the association accordingly, with a view to the association referring the matter further to the Umpire if they desire to do so. The other three appeals were adjourned by the Court of Referees pending the decision of the Umpire on the first two cases. The question has not yet been put before the Umpire for his decision. It will be put before him as soon as a request to this effect is received from the association.

    Scottish Farm Servants (Holidays).
    Mr. COWANasked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the continually growing demand of Scottish farm-servants for a weekly half-holiday, and having regard to the national importance of the industry in which they are engaged, he will take immediate steps for the appointment of a Departmental Committee to investigate the conditions under which such holidays may be instituted with

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    the minimum of disturbance to the operations of farmers and breeders of stock and with instructions to such committee to report at the earliest possible date?
    The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): I am unable to make any promise on the subject at present.

    Regent's Park.
    Mr. CASSELasked the President of the Board of Agriculture, as representing the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, whether he is aware that the Crown Estates Paving Commissioners levy rates on the residents living on the east side of Regent's Park for paving, repairing, cleaning, lighting, and watering the roads, amounting to 2s. 8d. in the £, in addition to the ordinary rates levied by the St. Pancras Borough Council; that the roads are in a very bad condition; that promises to re-construct the surface of the roads with a special kind of tar macadam were made in 1911; and whether he can give any definite assurance that these roads will be re-made in the autumn?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman): I am informed that the rates for paving, cleaning, lighting and watering roads levied by the Crown Estate Paving Commissioners under their special Acts of Parliament are 1s. 4d. in the £, and that parties paying those rates get practically an equivalent reduction in the rates levied by the local authority. I am assured that the greater part of the outer circle road on the east side of the park will be reconstructed this autumn. The Commissioners' funds are limited, and their work has had to be restricted according to the funds available.

    Crown Estates Paving Commissioners.
    Mr. CASSELasked whether any accounts are published by the Crown Estates Paving Commissioners?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am informed that the accounts of the Commissioners are printed, and copies can be obtained on application by any person paying the Commissioners' rates.

    American Beef Trust.
    Mr. FIELDasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been directed to the operations of the American Beef Trust in
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    Argentina and Australia; whether, in view of the fact that 80 per cent. of the supply in the Central Meat Market, London, is of foreign or Colonial importation, he will cause inquiry to be made into this subject or consider the expediency of reappointing the Departmental Committee to investigate and report upon the matter?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: This matter is engaging the careful consideration of the Government, but I cannot make any definite statement upon it at present.

    Live Stock Trade (Great Britain and Ireland).
    Mr. FIELDasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will consider the advisability of appointing the proposed Committee as promised to inquire into and report upon the unsatisfactory conditions prevailing in the live stock trade between Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to enable the business to be carried on with advantage and safety in the interest of both countries?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot make any further statement on this subject at present.
    Mr. CRUMLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of reducing the period of detention?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: That is dealt with in the answer to the next question.
    Mr. FIELDasked what further relaxations regulating the importation of live-stock from Ireland into Great Britain have been arranged; whether Irish fat or store animals will be allowed facility of transit to markets or grazing land; and whether the period of detention will be reduced?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: An order has been made to-day, to come into operation at midnight to-morrow, under which animals from any port of Ireland, except the scheduled area, will be allowed, after four days' detention at a landing-place in Great Britain, to be moved by licence to specified premises, there to be kept under observation for fourteen days unless slaughtered in the meantime.

    Housing (Cottages).
    Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Agriculture, if it is intended that loans for 60 years shall be sanctioned for the building of cottages of under £150 in value?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: The period of the loan necessarily depends upon the probable duration of the building, and each case will have to be considered on its merits.
    Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Agriculture if his advisers have decided what is the equivalent in wages of an eighth of an acre of garden to a cottager; and what is the minimum wage which the agricultural labourers under the Crown are to receive in order to be able to pay 4s. a week rent for cottage and garden?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: It is impossible to give a precise answer to the first part of the question; it depends upon various considerations, conditions of soil and climate, the time and opportunity which the occupier of a cottage may have for the cultivation of his garden, and so forth. With regard to the latter part of the question I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer which I gave to a question on this subject addressed to me by the hon. Member for the Wilton Division on Tuesday last.
    Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the pressing need for additional cottage accommodation in many rural districts, he will reconsider his decision to postpone or abandon that part of the Government's Housing Bill which enables the work of erecting cottages to be carried out by public utility societies upon more favourable terms than at present as regards the proportion, period, and rate of interest of loans for this purpose from the Public Works Loans Commissioners?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I cannot add anything at present to what I said on Friday last.

    British East Africa (Masai Tribes).
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what fines have been levied on members of the Masai tribes during the last two years for trespass or for allowing their cattle to pass across the boundaries of the Southern Reserve in British East Africa?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): It would be difficult to make an adequate statement within the limits of a verbal reply, but I am having a written answer prepared which will be sent to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
    Mr. HARVEY: Will it be circulated with the Votes?
    Mr. HARCOURT: I will consider that.

    Suffragist Prisoners.
    Mr. ASTORasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether bail was refused to Miss Grace Roe and Miss Nellie Hall when recently arrested; whether they were forcibly fed for seven weeks when on remand; whether ho has directed that in future cases of the same kind the granting of bail shall not be opposed by the prosecution; and whether the seven weeks spent in prison prior to trial will be reckoned as part of their sentence?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): Miss Hall was on remand and awaiting trial 4½ weeks and Miss Roe 6 weeks, and during that time they were forcibly fed. Their sentences date from the first day of the sessions at which they were tried, the 23rd June, one month from the date of their arrest. I have given instructions that bail should not be opposed by the prosecution in these cases provided it is in suitable amount and the prisoner promises not to commit outrage in the meantime. In the case of these two prisoners bail was not opposed by the prosecution, but was refused by the magistrate in his discretion. In spite of their refusal of food their health has not suffered, and I regret that I do not feel justified in advising the remission of the sentences passed on these prisoners unless they will give an undertaking to refrain in future from criminal acts and incitements to crime, in which case I should be glad to do so.

    Animals in Mines.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the Home Secretary the number of mines and the number of animals employed in mines which were inspected in 1913 by special inspectors of horses in the Northern Division (No. 2) and in the Midland and Southern Division (No. 6), respectively; and whether he will give instructions that in future particulars as to the numbers of mines and of animals inspected shall be included in all reports of His Majesty's inspectors of mines?
    Mr. McKENNA: The figures for the Northern Division are given by the inspector in his report, namely, 264 mines and over 15,000 horses. The figures for the

    1903
    Midland and Southern Division are 307 mines and 6,145 horses. The inspectors will be asked to see that the figures in question are included in all future reports.
    Mr. BUTCHER: In view of the figures that have come out in the report of the inspectors, will the right hon. Gentleman appoint additional horse inspectors?
    Mr. McKENNA: I would not like to make a reply to the hon. Gentleman now.

    Motor Omnibus Conductors.
    Mr. HUNTasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that motor omnibus conductors have to be on duty at 9 a.m. till 11.15 p.m., one hour and three-quarters being allowed out of it for meals; and as this is more than twelve hours a day, whether he can take any steps to get these very long hours reduced?
    Mr. McKENNA: This subject was investigated by the Select Committee on motor traffic, when evidence showed that about nine and three-quarter hours are actually spent on the omnibus, the remainder being relief time. I am not aware that conditions have since changed for the worse, and I believe there have recently been negotiations on the subject between the London General Omnibus Company and the Workers' Union. It is not a matter in which I have any authority to interfere.

    Banwell New School.
    Mr. SANDERSasked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the correspondence between the Somerset Education Committee and the Board relative to the plans for a new school at Banwell; if he is aware that the plans were sent in to the Board on 3rd April; that no question as to their suitability was raised by the Board till 23rd July; that the new school is urgently required, and that the action of the Board is causing delay at the best time of the year for building purposes; and whether he will endeavour to prevent any further delay in the matter?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Pease): The Board of Education approved the plans of the school, so far as educational requirements are concerned, on 16th March last. The Board's letter of 23rd July did not contain any criticisms of the plans, but asked for information as to the delay in the commencement
    1904
    of building operations. The plans require the approval of the Local Government Board as well as of the Board of Education, and I understand that they are still under the consideration of the Local Government Board, who are in communication with the county council with regard to the drainage.

    Secretary for Scotland's Decision (Lieutenant Cameron).
    Sir HERBERT RAPHAELasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Vote for the salary of the Secretary for Scotland was not reached in the discussion of the Scottish Estimates, and therefore no opportunity was afforded of criticising his decision in relation to the case of Lieutenant Cameron, he will provide an opportunity of bringing the matter before the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): I fear I do not see my way to give special facilities for a discussion of this case.
    Mr. KING: Can this matter be raised on the Appropriation Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It it not a matter for me.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    MESSRS. J. B. WALKINSON AND SON, LIMITED, HOLMFIRTH.
    Mr. JOWETTasked the Secretary of State for War if Messrs. J. B. Walkinson and Son, Limited, of Holmfirth, are in contractural relations with his Department; and, if so, whether they are paying the employés in their dye-works the standard rate of wages?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Baker): No recent complaint has been received of any infringement of the Fair-Wages Clause in Army contracts held by the firm alluded. If there is any cause for complaint the matter will be investigated on receipt of full particulars.

    ROYAL ENGINEERS (GEORGE FLYNN, COUNTY LEITRIM).
    Mr. FRANCIS MEEHANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that George Flynn, of Drumshambo, county Leitrim, enlisted in the Royal Engineers, in Edinburgh, in May last under a false age and description, and is now stationed at Chatham; and whether, having regard to his false

    1905
    declaration and that he is a delicate boy and the only support of an old infirm mother, he will be now discharged?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Tennant): It appears that this recruit understated his age on enlistment, but this does not under the regulations constitute a false declaration necessitating discharge. As regards the other aspects of the matter the recruit is of good physique, and, although his mother has described her son as her only support, she has never asked for his discharge on compassionate grounds.

    GARRISON AND REGIMENTAL INSTITUTES (WAR OFFICE COMMITTEE).
    Mr. ASTORasked the Secretary of State for War whether Parliament will have an opportunity of seeing and discussing the Report of the War Office Committee recently appointed to inquire into the system of supply to garrison and regimental institutes before their recommendations are put into effect?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot give a pledge such as that asked for by the hon. Member, but I certainly think that the House ought to have an opportunity of discussing the recommendations of the Committee.

    AVIATION STATION, ORFORDNESS.
    Mr. DUNDAS WHITEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, whether the arbitrator has yet issued his award in the arbitration for the purchase of about 1,249 acres at Orfordness for the establishment of an aviation station and other purposes; and, if not, whether he can say when that award is likely to be issued.
    Mr. TENNANT: The award has been issued and the amount is £12,905.

    Labour Exchanges.
    Mr. F. HALL (Dulwich)asked the President of the Board of Trade, if his attention has been called to the claim of Mr. C. W. Wright for arrears of pay due to him in connection with his services as local agent for the Board of Trade Labour Exchanges and Unemployment Insurance at Penge; whether he is aware that it was arranged on Mr. Wright's appointment that his remuneration should be based on the number of unemployed books current in the area of the agency at the end of the year upon a fixed scale; that subsequently
    1906
    his appointment as local agent was determined and he received a fresh appointment as a temporary clerk at the Anerley Road Exchange; that on 13th November, 1913, the Board of Trade sent Mr. Wright an order for £42 5s. 10d. in full satisfaction of his claim for remuneration while acting as local agent; that this offer was refused and the Board of Trade in February, 1914, offered to pay a further sum of £10 10s. 8d. if accepted in settlement; if he can state why, if the first amount offered represented all that Mr. Wright was entitled to, the offer of a further sum was made to him; on what basis these proposed payments were calculated; what amount was due to Mr. Wright at the time his appointment as local agent was terminated on the scale of pay laid down in the Board's letter of 21st January. 1913; and if he will explain the grounds upon which Mr. Wright was discharged from his employment as temporary clerk shortly after he submitted a petition through his solicitors with regard to the-payments properly due to him?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: The facts in this, case are not completely stated in the question. I am circulating with the votes a statement giving full particulars of the case referred to.—[See Written Answers this date.]
    Mr. HALL: Can the hon. Gentleman, to-save time, say what is the meaning of the words "books current?"
    Mr. DUNDAS WHITEasked the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been called to allegations as to the inadequate pay received for overtime work at the Labour Exchanges in Scotland; if he can say what is the scale of overtime pay for Labour Exchange work; and whether any steps have recently been taken with reference to it?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: Clerks employed in; the Labour Exchanges are not entitled by the terms of their appointment to any payment for overtime; and prior to April 18th, 1914, payments for overtime work were made only in respect of periods of exceptional pressure with the special sanction of His Majesty's Treasury in each case. These payments took the form of gratuities. Certain complaints were made as to the inadequacy of these gratuities. Since April 18th, 1914, a regular system of overtime pay at hourly rates, which are practically the same as those paid to clerks in other branches of the Government Service

    1907
    on similar scales of salary, has been in force in the Department. The rates paid are 1s. 2d. per hour for clerks on the scale of salary £110—£5—£150; 10d. per hour for clerks on the scale of salary £60—£5—£105; and 8d. per hour for clerks on the scale of 20s.—1s.—30s. per week. Temporary clerks whose remuneration is from 25s. to 35s. per week are paid for overtime work at the rate of 10d. per hour.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the manager at the Stratford, East, Labour Exchange on Monday, 27th July, sent a number of plasterers to Grays, Essex, to work for Messrs. Mallables, which is in dispute in connection with the London building trades lockout; if he can say why the men in question were not informed at the time that the job was in dispute; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I have caused inquiries to be made into the matter to which my hon. Friend refers. I understand that no information was in the possession of the Labour Exchange at Stratford that the firm in question was one which was affected by the dispute in the London building trade. One man only was submitted to the firm from the Stratford Exchange.

    Trade Boards Act.
    Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Trade if ho will state the various industries to which the Trade Boards Act now applies, and how many persons are now employed in those trades, respectively; and how many were employed before they came under the provisions of the Trade Boards Act?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: The trades to which the Trade Boards Act now applies are certain branches of tailoring, paper box making, machine-made lace finishing, chain making, sugar confectionery and food preserving, shirt making, the making of hollow-ware and of tin boxes and canisters, and linen and cotton embroidery. There are no statistics relating to the precise branches of trade which are within the scope of the Trade Boards Act; and it is possible to make only very rough estimates of the numbers employed, which are believed to be somewhere about 350,000 in all. Information is not available to enable a comparison to be made between the numbers employed before
    1908
    and after the application of the Trade Boards Act, but it seems probable that the numbers employed have in general been maintained, and that in some cases they have increased.

  POST OFFICE.

    TELEPHONE SERVICE.
    Mr. HOAREasked the Postmaster-General how many assistant clerks are serving in the London telephone service, and how many of them have been recommended for promotion; whether it is his intention only to promote them after examination; and whether he is aware that the Royal Commission on the Civil Service has recommended that when a clerk of the junior clerical class is selected for promotion to the senior class he should not be subjected to any examination, whether competitive or qualifying.
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hobhouse): I am enquiring into the matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

    POSTAL SERVICE, DIDDLEBURY, SHROPSHIRE.
    Mr. HUNTasked the Postmaster-General, if he can have a letter-box put up at Diddlebury, near Craven Arms, Shropshire, as the inhabitants have to walk about two miles on a very bad road to post their letters?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: I am having enquiry made and will communicate with the hon. Member.

    Public Trustee (Advisory Committee).
    Mr. ROWLANDSto ask Mr. Attorney-General whether a Committee of four gentlemen as an advisory body to the Public Trustee has been appointed; if so, whether he can state under what authority the Committee has been appointed; what will be the exact duties and powers of the Committee or will it be only consultative; if there will be any remuneration for the time devoted to the work, and, if so, what amount; and to whom the Committee will be responsible?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir J. Simon): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Committee has been appointed under the authority of the Lord Chancellor. The duties and powers of the Committee will be advisory only, and they will from time to time examine and criticise the investments which the Public Trustee has made.

    1909
    The Committee have expressed then-desire that they should act without remuneration. The Committee will be responsible to the Lord Chancellor.
    Mr. ROWLANDS: Will there be any official Report from the Committee to the House?
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not think it has been decided whether there will be an official Report. The extent of their responsibility is indicated in the answer I have given.

    Foot-and-Mouth Disease.
    Mr. FIELDasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, in view of the freedom of Ireland from foot-and-mouth distemper, he is prepared to reconsider the existing scheduled areas and enable the live stock trade to resume normal conditions?
    Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland): Restrictions on the movement of animals in Ireland are now confined to an area of about seven miles radius from the scene of the last outbreak in county Tipperary. The question of the return to normal conditions of the export trade in live stock to Great Britain is, of course, one for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. I am hopeful, however, that the position in Ireland will be regarded as warranting a substantial modification of the Board's present regulations at an early date.

    Royal Irish Constabulary.
    Mr. FRANCIS MEEHANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the death of ex-Constable M'Gee, which took place in twelve months after his forced retirement, at Manorhamilton, in August last, after an unblemished service of 28 years, his widow and nine young children were only allowed the sum of £273 from the Constabulary Force Fund; and whether, having regard to his service and that he was forced, without any assigned reason, to retire, and to his death having occurred so soon after his retirement, some further provision will be made by way of a grant or pension for the support of his widow and young weak family?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): The Inspector-General informs me that ex-Constable M'Gee died in August last, thirteen months after his retirement from the
    1910
    force. A sum of £273 was paid from the Constabulary Force Fund to his widow and seven of the children, who were within the rules of benefit. This grant was made strictly in accordance with the rules of the fund, and there is no power to increase it. There is no legal power to grant a pension to the widow of a man who had retired on pension.
    Mr. F. HALL (Dulwich)asked the Chief Secretary whether recruits joining the Royal Irish Constabulary for the first six months receive only 15s. a week; whether up to twenty-five years' service their pay amounts to £75 4s. per annum, or only 27s. a week; and, if so, whether he proposes and, if so, when to take the necessary steps to bring the pay of these men up to or nearly approximately the wages paid to constables in Liverpool, Manchester, and other large towns in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The rate of pay of a constable of Royal Irish Constabulary of less than six months' service is 15s. per week, and of fifteen years, but less than twenty-five years' service 27s. per week. The maximum rate of pay of a constable is 28s. per week, equal to £72 16s. per annum. With regard to the last paragraph of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the terms of the Bill which I introduced last Thursday dealing with the matter, and which will shortly be circulated.
    Mr. HALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only ten days ago he told me that the pay of an Irish constable during the first six months was £54 12s. a year?
    Mr. BIRRELL: No, I do not know that.
    Mr. HALL: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will look into it?

    Poor Law Infirmaries (Nurses' Qualifications).
    Mr. ASTORasked the President of the Local Government Board whether all nurses employed in Poor Law infirmaries in the Metropolitan Asylums Board institutions and in municipal hospitals or sanatoria must, before being engaged, possess a nurse's certificate and be qualified nurses?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Herbert Lewis): The Local Government Board require that a person

    1911
    appointed to the office of superintendent nurse or head nurse in any institution to which the Poor Law Institutions (Nursing) Order, 1913, applies, shall possess a certificate of having undergone for three years at least a course of instruction in the medical and surgical wards of a hospital or infirmary being a training school for nurses and maintaining a resident physician or house surgeon, and shall be also a midwife certified under the Mid-wives Act, 1902. Evidence of training is also required of persons appointed as staff nurses or sisters at the Metropolitan Asylums Board's hospitals. Probationer nurses who are employed in Poor Law institutions are not required to have had previous nursing experience. The conditions of appointment of nurses in municipal hospitals and sanatoria are determined by the local authorities managing the institutions.
    Mr. ASTORasked whether any nurses are trained in Poor Law infirmaries, in the institutions belonging to the Metro politan Asylums Board, and in municipal hospitals or sanatoria; and, if so, will he state what authority lays down what course of training they must undergo before becoming qualified nurses?
    Mr. LEWIS: A large number of nurses are trained in Poor Law infirmaries. Training of a rather special character is also given in the institutions of the Metropolitan Asylums Board. I have no precise information as to the training given in municipal hospitals and sanatoria. The training necessary for a qualified nurse has not been prescribed.

    Poor Law Relief (Draft Orders).
    Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked whether the Departmental Committee which prepared the draft orders regulating relief and Poor Law institutions is engaged in preparing any further draft orders other than one dealing with the casual poor; and whether in this case Parliament will be given some opportunity of discussing any such order before it is sanctioned?
    Mr. HERBERT LEWIS: The Departmental Committee referred to are continuing their work of consolidating, with amendments, the Poor Law Orders. On receiving a further Report from them, my right hon. Friend will give consideration to my hon. Friend's suggestion.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    H.M.S. "RECOVERY" (BELIEF OF CREW).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to say that similar arrangements have been made in regard to relieving the crew of His Majesty's ship "Recovery" as were made in regard to relieving the crew of His Majesty's ship "Resource"; and, if these arrangements have not been made, will he consider the advisability of inquiring into the matter with the object of placing the crews of the two vessels on an equality with regard to out-port service.?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): Instructions have been issued providing for similar arrangements in regard to relieving the crew of "Recovery" as were made in regard to relieving the crew of "Resource."

    H.M.S. "INVINCIBLE" (STEAM TRIALS).
    Mr. CHARLES DUNCANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether steps are being taken to ensure that enough fully equipped boats are carried by His Majesty's ship "Invincible" to guarantee the safety of both the crew and the steaming party when on steam trials; and whether he can state the number of boats provided and their carrying capacity?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The "Invincible" will carry her full complement of boats on her steam trials.

    ROYAL NAVAL COLLEGE (DARTMOUTH).
    Colonel BURNasked whether any decision had been arrived at as to granting an increase of pay to the members of the Civil staff of the Royal Naval College at Dartmouth?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The question of the pay of certain Civil employés at the College is still under consideration.
    Colonel BURN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no change has been made in the pay since 1889 when civilians were substituted for service men?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I am not aware of the precise date of the last revision of pay, but the present pay is under consideration.
    Colonel BURN: Will it be under consideration for eight or nine months?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I think not.

GREAT BRITAIN AND GERMANY.
  THE PRIME MINISTER'S ANNOUNCEMENT.

    VIOLATION OF BELGIAN NEUTRALITY.
    ULTIMATUM TO GERMAN GOVERNMENT.
    Reply Demanded by Midnight (4th August).
    Mr. BONAR LAW: I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he has any statement that he can now make to the House?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): In conformity with the statement of policy made here by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday, a telegram was early this morning sent by him to our Ambassador in Berlin. It was to this effect:—
    "The King of the Belgians has made an appeal to His Majesty the King for diplomatic intervention on behalf of Belgium. His Majesty's Government are also informed that the German Government has delivered to the Belgian Government a Note proposing friendly neutrality entailing free passage through Belgian territory and promising to maintain the independence and integrity of the Kingdom and its possessions, at the conclusion of peace, threatening in case of refusal to treat Belgium as an enemy. An answer was requested within twelve hours. We also understand that
    1926
    Belgium has categorically refused this as a flagrant violation of the law of nations. His Majesty's Government are bound to protest against this violation of a Treaty to which Germany is a party in common with themselves, and must request an assurance that the demand made upon Belgium may not be proceeded with, and that her neutrality will be respected by Germany. You should ask for an immediate reply."
    We received this morning from our Minister at Brussels the following telegram:—
    "German Minister has this morning addressed Note to the Belgian Minister for Foreign Affairs stating that as Belgian Government have declined the well-intended proposals submitted to them by the Imperial Government, the latter will, deeply to their regret, be compelled to carry out, if necessary by force of arms, the measures considered indispensable in view of the French menaces."
    Simultaneously—almost immediately afterwards—we received from the Belgian Legation here in London the following telegram:—
    " General staff announces that territory has been violated at Gemmenich (near Aix-la-Chappelle).
    "Subsequent information tended to show that the German force has penetrated still further into Belgian territory. We also received this morning from the German Ambassador here the telegram sent to him by the German Foreign Secretary, and communicated by the Ambassador to us. It is in these terms:—
    "Please dispel any mistrust that may subsist on the part of the British Government with regard to our intentions by repeating most positively formal assurance that, even in the case of armed conflict with Belgium, Germany will,

    1927
    under no pretence whatever, annex Belgian territory. Sincerity of this declaration is borne out by fact that we solemnly pledged our word to Holland strictly to respect her neutrality. It is obvious that we could not profitably annex Belgic territory without making, at the same time, territorial acquisitions at expense of Holland. Please impress upon Sir E. Grey that German Army could not be exposed to French attack across Belgium, which was planned according to absolutely unimpeachable information. Germany had consequently to disregard Belgic neutrality, it being for her a question of life or death to prevent French advance."
    I have to add this on behalf of His Majesty's Government: We cannot regard this as in any sense a satisfactory communication. We have, in reply to it, repeated the request we made last week to the German Government, that they should give us the same assurance in regard to Belgian neutrality as was given to us and to Belgium by France last week. We have asked that a reply to that request, and a satisfactory answer to the telegram of this morning—which I have read to the House—should be given before midnight.

ARMY RESERVE AND TERRITORIAL FORCE.
The PRIME MINISTERat the Bar, acquainted the House that he had a message from His Majesty, signed by His Majesty's own hand, and he presented the same to the House, and it was read by Mr. Speaker (all the Members of the House being uncovered), and it is as followeth:—
"GEORGE R.I.—The present state of public affairs in Europe constituting in the
1928
opinion of His Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of Parliament in that behalf, His Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for the Military Service, and therefore, in pursuance of these Acts, His Majesty has thought it right to communicate to the House of Commons that His Majesty is, by proclamation, about to order that the Army Reserve shall be called out on permanent service, that soldiers who would otherwise, be entitled, in pursuance of the terms of their enlistment, to be transferred to the Reserve, shall continue in Army Service for such period, not exceeding the period for which they might be required to serve if they were transferred to the Reserve and called out for permanent service, as to His Majesty may seem expedient, and that such directions as may seem necessary may be given for embodying the Territorial Force and for making such special arrangements as may be proper with regard to units or individuals whose services may be required in other than a military capacity."

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Ordered, "That, on this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for new services may be considered in Committee of Supply; that the Chairman shall, so soon as the House resolves itself into Committee of Supply, put forthwith the Question, with respect to each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, that the total amount of the Votes outstanding in that Class be granted for the services defined in the Class, and shall in like manner put severally the Questions that the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments be granted for the services defined in those Estimates; and that Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock."—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
  The CHAIRMAN, in pursuance of the Order of the House of this day, proceeded to put forthwith the Question with respect to each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, that the total amount of the Votes outstanding in that. Class be defined for the services denned in the Class, and in like manner to put severally the Questions that the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments be granted for the services defined in those Estimates; and that Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock:—

  SUPPLY.

    Class I.
    1. "That a sum not exceeding £2,163,769 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure with respect of the services included in Class I. of the Estimates for the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    Royal Palaces

    38,270

    2.

    Osborne

    4,300

    3.

    Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

    70,200

    4.

    Houses of Parliament Buildings

    34,700

    5.

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    26,300

    6.

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    69,200

    7.

    Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

    60,050

    8.

    Revenue Buildings

    460,900

    9.

    Insurance and Labour Exchange Buildings, Great Britain

    129,200

    10.

    Public Buildings, Great Britain

    491,950

    11.

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    122,485

    12.

    Harbours under the Board of Trade

    24,532

    13.

    Peterhead Harbour

    22,000

    14.

    Rates on Government Property

    414,000

    Class II.
    2. "That a sum not exceeding £1,919,984 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the services included in Class II. of the Estimates of the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    House of Lords Offices

    10,987

    2.

    House of Commons

    209,448

    3.

    Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    63,263

    4.

    Home Office

    178,600

    7.

    Privy Council Office

    5,242

    8.

    Board of Trade

    232,550

    9.

    Mercantile Marine Services

    81,564

    10.

    Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

    6

    11.

    Board of Agriculture and Fisheries

    144,027

    12.

    Charity Commission

    16,572

    13.

    Government Chemist

    13,792

    14.

    Civil Service Commission

    26,885

    15.

    Exchequer and Audit Department

    41,235

    16.

    Friendly Societies Registry

    10,358

    17.

    Local Government Board (including a Supplementary sum of £12,000)

    204,356

    18.

    Board of Control (Mental Deficiency), England

    91,419

    19.

    The Mint

    33

    20.

    National Debt Office

    8,056

    21.

    Public Record Office

    15,509

    22.

    Public Works Loan Commission

    26

    23.

    Registrar General's Office, England

    26,768

    25.

    Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues

    12,974

    26.

    Office of Works and Public Buildings

    88,710

    27.

    Secret Service

    23,000

    Scotland.

    28.

    Secretary for Scotland's Office

    9,851

    30.

    Fishery Board

    15,497

    Class III.
    3. "That a sum not exceeding £2,546,529 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure with respect of the services included in Class III. of the Estimates for the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    Law Charges

    37,179

    2.

    Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    24,216

    3.

    Supreme Court of Judicature and Court of Criminal Appeal

    177,889

    4.

    Land Registry

    25,121

    5.

    Public Trustee

    5

    6.

    County Courts

    4,050

    7.

    Police, England and Wales

    58,186

    8.

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    363,890

    9.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    161,462

    10.

    Criminal Lunatic Asylums, England

    29,607

    Class IV.
    4. "That a sum not exceeding £12,996,191 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the services included in Class IV. of the Estimates for the Civil Service namely:—

    £

    1.

    Board of Education

    9,480,621

    1.

    Board of Education (Supplementary sum)

    515,000

    2.

    British Museum

    110,273

    3.

    National Gallery

    15,545

    4.

    National Portrait Gallery

    2,823

    5.

    Wallace Collection

    4,196

    6.

    Stafford House

    2,975

    7.

    Scientific Investigation, etc. (including a Supplementary sum of £4,000)

    59,697

    8.

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

    204,800

    9.

    Public Education, Scotland

    1,491,868

    9.

    Public Education, Scotland (Supplementary sum)

    75,139

    10.

    National Galleries, Scotland

    4,183

    1933

    Ireland.

    £

    11.

    Public Education (including a Supplementary sum of £13,546)

    804,227

    Intermediate Education, Ireland

    40,000

    12.

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    515

    13.

    National Gallery

    1,165

    14.

    Science and Art

    119,164

    15.

    Universities and Colleges

    64,000

    £12,996,191 "

    Class V.
    5. "That a sum not exceeding £714,903 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the services included in Class V. of the Estimates for the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    Diplomatic and Consular Services

    448,041

    3.

    Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

    15,862

    4.

    Cyprus (Grant-in-Aid)

    1,000

    5.

    Persian Loan (including a Supplementary sum of £25,000)

    245,000

    6.

    Albanian Loan

    5,000

    £714,903 "

    Class VI.
    6. "That a sum not exceeding £487,181 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    423,367

    2.

    Miscellaneous Expenses, Great Britain

    6,261

    2.

    Miscellaneous Expenses, Great Britain (Supplementary sum)

    6,000

    3.

    Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    863

    4.

    Temporary Commissions

    23,500

    Class VII.
    7. "That a sum not exceeding £14,745,750 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for the Civil Service, namely:—

    £

    1.

    Old Age Pensions

    7,710,000

    2.

    National Health Insurance, Joint Committee

    223,864

    2.

    National Health Insurance, Joint Committee (Supplementary sum)

    943,100

    3.

    National Health Insurance Commission (England)

    3,646,611

    4.

    National Health Insurance Commission (Wales)

    246,702

    5.

    National Health Insurance Commission (Scotland)

    500,815

    6.

    National Health Insurance Commission (Ireland)

    194,620

    7.

    Labour Exchanges and Unemployment Insurance

    738,123

    8.

    National Insurance Audit Department

    54,500

    9.

    Treatment of Tuberculosis (Special Grants)

    280,000

    9A

    Pathological Laboratories

    50,000

    10.

    Highlands and Islands (Medical Service) Board

    42,847

    11.

    Friendly Societies Deficiency

    14,568

    12.

    Expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905

    100,000

    £14,745,750 "

    NAVY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    8. "That a sum not exceeding £32,570,00 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Navy Services, namely:—

    £

    3.

    Medical Establishments and Services

    292,100

    4.

    Civilians employed on Fleet Services

    115,300

    5.

    Educational Services

    175,000

    6.

    Scientific Services

    64,700

    7.

    Royal Naval Reserves

    489,900

    8.

    Sec. 1. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Personnel

    3,989,800

    8.

    Sec. 2. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Materiel

    7,087,400

    8.

    Sec. 3. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Contract Work.

    14,287,800

    9.

    Naval Armaments

    5,544,300

    11.

    Miscellaneous Effective Services

    523,700

    £32,570,000 "

    ARMY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    9. "That a sum not exceeding £13,432,000 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Army Estimates, namely:—

    £

    2.

    Medical Establishment, Pay, etc.

    437,000

    3.

    Special Reserve

    724,000

    4.

    Territorial Forces

    3,086,000

    5.

    Establishments for Military Education

    156,000

    6.

    Quartering, Transport, and Remounts

    1,732,000

    7.

    Supplies and Clothing

    4,388,000

    8.

    Ordnance Department Establishments and General Stores

    621,000

    9.

    Armaments, Engineer Stores, and Aviation

    1,732,000

    £

    11.

    Miscellaneous Effect Services

    59,000

    12.

    War Office

    457,000

    Ordnance Factories

    40,000

    £13,432,000 "

    REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    10. "That a sum not exceeding £1,658,765 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for the. Revenue Departments, namely;—

    £

    1.

    Customs and Excise

    1,538,765

    2.

    Inland Revenue (Supplementary sum)

    45,000

    3.

    Post Office (Supplementary sum)

    75,000

    £1,658,765 "

    Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday).

WAYS AND MEANS.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Resolved, "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, the sum of £104,642,055 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Mr. Gulland]
Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday.)

ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY (ACQUISITION OF CAPITAL) BILL.
Considered in Committee and reported without amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule stand part of the
Bill."
Mr. EDMUND HARVEY: I want to ask a question. The Schedule contains the Unemployment Workmen's Act of 1905. We shall be soon foreseeing the need for special measures to deal with unemployment over and above this Bill, and as there is no possibility of amending this Act now, can we have an assurance from the President of the Local Government Board that the Road Boards have got work in hand and that the Development Commissioners have work in hand, in view of the probability which we fear there must be of very acute distress in the course of the winter?
The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Herbert Samuel): I am in communication with both those Boards, and the situation, I think, is well in hand. It certainly will be necessary this year, as in previous years, to renew the Unemployment Workmen's Act. The extent to which the powers under that Act should be exercised depends upon the amount of money available for the services of the Distress Committee. The only legislative power is that which the House is now asked to pass. Any financial business will be for future legislation. I may add I am communicating with the Distress Committee and the town councils upon the matter.
Question, "That the Schedule stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Bill reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) BILL.
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Mr. SPEAKER: With regard to this Bill I have to observe that during the course of its passage through Committee a clause was added which the Committee had no authority to accept. The Bill as it passed this House does not deal with Ireland or Scotland, and only with England. During the course of its passage through Committee a Clause was inserted not extending this Bill to Ireland, but extending the provisions of the Act of 1906 to Ireland. The Committee, in my judgment, had no right or authority to insert that Clause without receiving an instruction, which instruction was not received. The more proper course to take now would be to recommit this Bill to the Standing Committee, in order that they might strike that Clause out. It appears to me the justice of the case would be met, and the convenience of all parties would be met, if now upon Report that particular Clause were struck out and the Title amended accordingly. If that commends itself to the House, I think it is the course we might take.
The PRESIDENT Of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Pease): In accordance with your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move the omission of Clause 3 (Application of Act of 1906 to Ireland).
Mr. JOHN REDMOND: If I have followed your ruling correctly, Mr. Speaker, the effect of taking the proceedings which you have indicated, would be to deprive Ireland of the benefits of the Clauses contained in this Bill. If it is possible to avoid that I ask the House to do so. If by recommitting the Bill or by any other course we could save Ireland's interest in this matter, I ask the House to do so.
Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: In view of the fact that it win at the request of the Nationalist party that Ireland was kept out, I do not think we should now risk the loss of this Bill.
Mr. JOHN REDMOND: I do not suggest risking the Bill at all.
Mr. HENDERSON: As this Session is likely to close without any further business in Committee, we do not want to risk the portion of the Bill which was in the original measure. I hope we are going to safeguard English interests. If the Bill is going to be sent back to the Committee, we would prefer to proceed with the Bill as originally introduced.
Mr. PEASE: Another course would be to allow this Bill to pass and apply it only to England as it was originally drafted and passed in Committee. Another Bill has been introduced by one of the Irish representatives which deals with the same subject in another form and in which the interests of Ireland are dealt with. If it is desired by the Irish Nationalist Party and the House that Bill might be regarded as a separate Bill and passed.
Mr. JOHN REDMOND: I might be allowed to say if that course were adopted it would entirely meet the views of my colleagues and myself. There is nothing in the distinctively Irish Bill which raises any controversial points any more than those which are contained in the English Bill which we tried to extend to Ireland. If the House will adopt the course suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, hon. Members will see that we do not wish to imperil the passage of this Bill. I think it is only fair that we should be indemnified in this matter, and I ask the Government to put the Irish Bill on the paper.
Mr. JAMES HOGGE: I think, Mr. Speaker, that you mentioned the word Scotland in connection with this Bill. So far as I understand the matter there is nothing in the Bill which applies to Scotland. I want to be quite clear on that point.
Mr. SPEAKER: I said the Bill did not apply to Scotland.
Sir EDWARD CARSON: I do not want in any wise to controvert the policy of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, but I understand that there are many parts of Ireland where some objections to this Bill have been raised, and therefore it must not be taken that the other Bill can be put through as a non-controversial matter. There would be nothing controversial in the sense of anything political, but I understand there are other considerations.
Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: As Chairman of the Committee which debated this Bill, perhaps I may be allowed to say that after some discussion there was a general agreement as to the desirability of this Bill being extended to Ireland. There were some objections raised, but they were met to the satisfaction of those hon. Members who were opposing the measures, and I think I may say with perfect accuracy
1940
that these Clauses were regarded as non-contentious. For that reason I hope the right hon. Gentleman will allow this Bill to be extended to Ireland which requires the provisions of this Bill as badly as England.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: I am anxious to avoid any misconception arising. If we reject this Clause and another Bill is introduced containing nothing but what is in this Clause would it then be possible for this House to accept it?
Mr. SPEAKER: The other Bill must contain one or two other clauses in order to facilitate the working of it, although the two Bills may be identical in principle.
The PRIME MINISTER: With regard to the last point I understand that the ground upon which you, Mr. Speaker, have held the clause in question not to be admissible is that it is outside the scope of this Bill. That being a purely technical reason I understand that there would be no objection to the clause being inserted in the proper place. If this clause is omitted I would consent to star the Irish Bill and give the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson) an opportunity of raising a discussion on such points as he may think fit.
Sir E. CARSON: I am quite satisfied with that.
Sir F. BANBURY: I do not want to raise any objection to the passage of this Bill. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has moved that the clause be omitted and the House will negative this clause. Will it not be against precedent that the same clause should be introduced again in another Bill?
Mr. SPEAKER: It will not be identically the same and it will not be the same Question that will be put from the Chair.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
Mr. PEASE: I beg to move, to omit from the title the words "and to provide for the application of that Act to Ireland."
Question put, and agreed to. Title amended accordingly.
Bill reported, with an Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

METROPOLITAN POLICE (EMPLOYMENT IN SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS [REMISSION OF DEBT].
Committee to consider of authorising the remission of certain Debts in pursuance of any Act of the present Session relating to Local Loans.
King's Recommendation signified [Mr. Gudland] to-morrow (Wednesday).

WAR RISKS.

  STATE INSURANCE SCHEME.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I will, with the indulgence of the House, now make the statement I promised yesterday to make regarding the very important question of insurance against war risks. The problem is how, having regard to the narrow limitations of the insurance market for war risks, and the difficulty of obtaining insurance of war risks on reasonable terms, or possibly any terms, in the course of a war in which this country is involved, we can secure that our vast overseas trade will go on, avoid an undue enhancement of prices or a curtailment of the supply of the food and materials of British industry, and ensure that the unemployment which is inevitable shall be restricted within the narrowest possible limits. This question is one which has received the earnest consideration of His Majesty's Government for several years. It has formed the subject of several enquiries from time to time. It was examined, not only by the Royal Commission, of which Lord Balfour of Burleigh was Chairman, but also subsequently by a special expert Committee of which I think the right hon.
  1942
  Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) was Chairman. This Committee, which reported in 1908, came to a conclusion adverse to the establishment of any State scheme for this purpose; but since the date of the Report—I think the right hon. Gentleman has come to the same conclusion—the changes, of conditions, both economic and strategic, which have taken place, have led us to the conclusion that the whole question needed re-examination in the light of present-day conditions. This re-examination was entrusted to a specially competent sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence.
  The Chairman of the Committee was Mr. Huth Jackson, and the other Members were Lord Inchcape, Sir Norman Hill, Sir Raymond Beck, and Mr. Arthur Lindley—an exceedingly competent body of experts, representing very important interests, and having a special knowledge of the subject which they were called upon to investigate. The reference to the Committee was to consider whether an administratively practicable scheme could be devised for submission to His Majesty's Government that will secure in the case of war that British commerce shall not be interrupted by reasons of inability to cover the war risks of ships and cargoes, and which will also ensure that the insurance rates shall not be so high as to cause an undue rise of prices. It was stipulated that any scheme prepared must be on the basis of reasonable contributions being paid by the owners of ships and cargoes towards the cost of insurance. It will be seen that the reference to the Committee did not include the question of policy which was reserved for the decision of His Majesty's Government. The document itself will, I think, be found in the Vote Office. Probably it is in the hands of Members at the present time. The result of the prolonged examination of the whole question for more than a year by Mr. Huth Jackson's Committee, was to produce a scheme which in their judgment, and in our judgment, complies with the conditions laid down in the reference, and this scheme has now been endorsed by His

  1943
  Majesty's Government as a matter of policy and as suited to the emergency in which we find ourselves.
  We propose, therefore, to give immediate effect to a scheme based upon that Report. We considered the matter very carefully on Saturday, and, after a prolonged conference which we had with various gentlemen who are particularly interested in this question, we came to the conclusion that it was desirable to put into immediate operation the Report of that Committee. Steps have already been taken for that purpose, and we shall be quite ready if the emergency arises. I have stated these facts to the House in order to emphasise the point that, although this scheme is promulgated in the midst of an emergency, it is not in any sense a panic scheme prepared in that emergency. The Committee sat for a very long time, and they considered it most carefully. I think all those who look at the scheme will find that it is not merely an exceedingly ingenious scheme, but it is a very admirable business scheme from every point of view. The Report of the Committee has been published, and is already in the hands of Members. I may say that among the changes which have taken place since 1908, and which have led us to revise the opinion that no scheme of this kind is required, perhaps the most important is the changed attitude of the insurance market itself. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, at that time they were very much opposed to any scheme of this kind, but since then they have completely changed their minds on the subject, because they have come to the conclusion that the resources at their disposal are really not adequate to meet all the risks which would be involved to our cargoes and ships in the case of war.
  Another important fact is that the great bulk of British overseas shipping has now grouped itself in a small number of big mutual insurance associations, which include among the benefits which they provide an indemnity for war risks incurred by ships afloat at the time of the outbreak
  1944
  of war up to the time they reached the nearest British or neutral port which is safe for the ship to lie in, and a few days beyond.
  These three great associations now include steamers up to a value of probably £90,000,000 or £100,000,000, which is perhaps about four-fifths of our British overseas shipping. It is evident that the form of mutual protection which has been adopted by these associations, although admirably adapted to protect the interests of ship-owners, adds greatly to the peril of interruption of our overseas trade on the outbreak of war, since the great bulk of British shipping is now encouraged by the terms of the Indemnity Associations not to keep the seas but to run for the nearest neutral or British port, for the simple reason that they do not cover war risks. What we want is a reason that will encourage shipping to keep the seas. That is vital in order that we should have an uninterrupted supply of food and material and that our trade should go on during the time of war as it does in the time of peace. We are perfectly convinced that by the powerful aid of the British Navy supplemented by a scheme of this kind, we can secure that vital object to our people.
  4.0 P.M.
  A third condition which, in our opinion, has changed since 1908 is the strategic situation. I do not propose this afternoon to give more than a broad outline of the scheme. But the House may like me to give just a summary of it, and I am prepared to do so, although each Member has got the document itself. It is a very lengthy and intricate document. I will deal with the question of hulls and cargoes separately, as the procedure followed is different in the two cases. In the case of ships, arrangements have been made with the existing clubs which deal exclusively with the question of hulls, or if necessary with other associations that may be formed. We do not propose to confine our operations merely to recognising the existing associations if other associations are set up, which are approved by the Government, and we shall recognise them in exactly the same way, on the mere

  1945
  condition that they shall extend their existing standard forms of policy to cover war risks up to the arrival of the vessel at the final port of the voyage which it is making when war breaks out, and for ten clear days after such arrival. Arrangements are also to be made with the same societies for the issue of similar policies on vessels starting their voyage after the war has broken out, and for this purpose the Government is to make an agreement with each of the societies, the principal conditions of which are the following:
  (1) The Government is to reinsure 80 per cent. of all these risks.
  I am dealing now with hulls because there are different conditions when we come to cargo.
  (2) In respect of voyages current on the outbreak of war, no premium is to be charged, but in respect of voyages begun after the outbreak of war, the State is to fix the insurance premium to be charged on a voyage basis, and is to receive 80 per cent. of such premium.
  If the voyage is current on the outbreak there will be no premium charged, but for voyages after the outbreak of war, a premium will be charged and 80 per cent. will be received by the Government. I want my hon. Friends to bear in mind that I am dealing with hulls, and that there are different sets of provisions when we come to cargoes.
  (3) The State is to have the right to fix and vary the premiums from time to time as may be necessary within a maximum of 5 per cent. and a minimum of 1 per cent., but a rate agreed for a specific voyage shall hold good if a vessel sails on that voyage within fourteen days of the completion of the insurance. On the other hand, if the starting of the voyage is delayed under the orders of the Admiralty, the assured shall have the option of cancelling the policy and of receiving back the premium paid.
  (4) The Associations are to run the remaining 20 per cent. of these risks, both before and after the outbreak of war, receiving for voyages after the outbreak

  1946
  of war 20 per cent. of the premiums fixed by the State.
  (5) All expenses of administration are to be borne by the clubs.
  (6) The claims are to be dealt with and settled by the Committee of the society upon which the Government is to be represented.
  The clubs, as I have said, include probably four-fifths of the shipping of this country, but there is nothing to prevent our concluding suitable arrangements mutatis mutandis with any great group of shipping that may be outside the clubs at present. Now I come to that part of the scheme which deals with the insurance of cargoes. Here we have not, as in the case of ships, existing mutual associations formed especially for the purpose of dealing with war risks through which it is possible to work. It is necessary, therefore, to set up an office for this purpose, and it is proposed that the work should be undertaken by a State Insurance Office to be opened in London. It has already been opened. We have already made the arrangements. The State Office will undertake to insure cargoes in British ships insured under the scheme which start on voyages after the outbreak of war, but it is not proposed that any steps should be taken with regard to cargoes already afloat at the time when the scheme takes effect. The rate of premium to be charged by the State for covering these risks is to be a flat one, irrespective of the voyage or the character of the cargo, insured. We considered this matter very carefully, and came to this decision after a great deal of discussion. The flat rate is capable of variation from time to time, within a maximum of five guineas per cent. and a minimum of one guinea per cent. It is proposed to set up a strong Advisory Board, consisting chiefly of persons versed in insurance matters, together with an official element which will have executive powers as regards the administration of the State Office, and will also advise as to the settling of rates, both on ships and on cargoes and other matters. I am glad to say that Mr. Douglas Owen, the well-known authority

  1947
  on war insurance, has placed his services at the disposal of the Government for this purpose, and associated with him there will be men of weight and representative character in the commercial and insurance world whose names—at present I am not in a position to give them—will command general confidence. For further details of the scheme, both as regards ships and cargoes, I would refer Members to the Report of the Committee and to the document which they have in their hands. There is one possible criticism which I think I ought to anticipate. It is that while the case for this scheme is the preservation of our supplies of food and raw material, it is not confined in any way to voyages of ships bringing food supplies and raw materials to the United Kingdom. I think that is very vital. It is vital that British shipping in every part of the world should be protected, and a little reflection will show that, in order to maintain the stream of supplies of necessaries for our population, we have to keep going the whole mechanism of overseas trade. It may seem, at first sight, to matter very little whether a British ship makes a voyage from New York to Buenos Ayres or not, but unless the ship makes that voyage it will not be available to bring food from Buenos Ayres to this country. We therefore felt bound to endorse the conclusion of the Committee, that there is no valid distinction to be made in respect cither of the nature of the cargo or of the voyages to be covered by the scheme.
  It only remains to say a word as to the method of procedure. We are advised that legally there is no necessity to obtain legislative sanction in advance before entering into the arrangements contemplated by the scheme, although it will undoubtedly be necessary to come to Parliament for the necessary funds, and, possibly, some validating legislation may hereafter be necessary in respect of certain points. In normal circumstances I need hardly say that we should, as a matter of policy, have thought it our duty to lay the proposals in a Bill before Parliament,
  1948
  before embarking on so novel and unprecedented a course as that we propose. But the emergency in which we find ourselves is itself unprecedented, and we therefore feel justified in appealing to the House to authorise us to proceed in this matter at once, in advance of any legislative and financial sanctions that may hereafter be required. It is not intended that any part of the scheme shall take-actual effect, unless and until notice to that effect has been given to the public. The organisation of the Improvised Insurance bureau which is being undertaken by the Board of Trade will, of course, involve a heavy piece of administrative work of an unaccustomed kind. We, cannot promise that the whole scheme will work without a hitch on the first opening of the bureau. We can only do our best in that respect. The administration is in very able hands, and it is the first experiment of the kind undertaken by the State. We hope and pray that the necessity for opening it may never arrive, but should the necessity arise, we hope and believe that by this scheme we shall be able to do something to relieve the anxiety of the mercantile and shipping world, and to ensure the continuity, in spite of every emergency, of the free flow of food and raw material to the population of this country.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I believe that the statement which has just been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be received with satisfaction in all quarters of the House and in the country. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to a Committee over which I presided at the request of the present Government in the years 1307–8. and to the adverse Report which that Committee made. I entirely agree with all the right hon. Gentleman has said that the most material factors in the situation have changed since, and I, some time ago, expressed my opinion publicly and to the Government that the whole subject ought to be re-opened, and that the decision ought not to be prejudiced by the Report which my Committee made. At a later date. I had an opportunity of seeing Mr. Huth Jackson, with the consent of the Government, and discussing

  1949
  the proposals of his Committee with him, and I then intimated to the Government, through him, that I thought a case was made out for such a scheme, and that the scheme in its main features was a practical and good one. I do not want to make a speech on the subject, for I agree, and can only say that I agree with all that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, and with his explanation of the situation. But I would like to add this, that I myself and my Friends with whom I have been consulting, are of opinion that the danger to this country is not so much of an actual scarcity of food or raw material as of the fear of scarcity causing a panic and raising prices. In my opinion, with a Navy able to discharge its duty, the pressure comes at the first moment. As time goes on the situation will be relieved, and we shall find supplies pouring in in great quantities from across the Atlantic, and there is no reason to suppose that we shall have to suffer any alarming scarcity. But there is every reason for preventing panic at the beginning, for allaying apprehensions, and for making the path of commerce and of industry as smooth as it can be made, so as to prevent all preventive hardships and suffering to any class of the community. I believe that the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has announced will go far to effect that result.
  Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I am not going to take up the time of the House in making any reference whatsoever to the scheme that has been outlined by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So far as I understand it, it seems excellent for the purpose, and I think it is absolutely essential. I should like, however, to ask the right hon. Gentleman, or the Prime Minister, whether the Government are in a position to report as to what steps are likely to be taken after these cargoes, which we are going to protect, have reached this country, and after all the machinery of this bureau has been put into operation. We must all be aware of the fact that, before many days are over, there will be thousands and tens of
  1950
  thousands of people in this country, especially if prices rise, who will be reduced to veritable starvation. An hon. Member says "No, no!" Anybody who says "No, no," does not know how the poor of this country live. Hon. Members do not know how the poor of this country have to live. They live, as it were, from day to day. Trade is bound to be affected, and if it is essential, as I believe it is essential, to look after the interests of shipping in order that we may have the cargoes landed in our own country, and thereby have a supply of food which money can buy, I want to ask whether we are not as a House equally under an obligation to take the organisation a step further? We may have thousands of people who may be brought into a condition of starvation or semi-starvation through no fault of their own, because they will be compulsorily unemployed. The casual worker may have no employment even to enable him to get the few days' wages that do come in occasionally. I want to make the appeal now while we are on this subject, because I am apprehensive that the House will close in a day or two, and may be closed for some time. I think, therefore, we are under the obligation to look at this issue at the moment, and I should like to make a strong appeal to the Prime Minister to give us some hope that this aspect of this great and important question will receive serious consideration, and that, before the House rises, some scheme of organisation to deal with the starving people will be intimated to the House.
  Mr. STANLEY WILSON: That has been done already.
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: I am told it has been done already. I have sat through all the sittings of the House, and I have not heard it. I shall withdraw everything I have said if the Prime Minister can intimate to me the scheme that somebody has suggested.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not know whether my hon. Friend was here last night when that question was put to me

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  from the Bench behind him, and when I certainly stated that this was a question which was now engaging the attention of the Government, and had been for some days.
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: The question I am now asking, in view of the fact that the House is going to rise, is: Will he promise a statement on the subject before this part of the Session does close?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I may say, in response to the appeal of my hon. Friend, that the Government are looking on all these matters as more or less interdependent. Yesterday we obtained the assent of the House to a Bill which will, I believe, set free our produce markets from an incubus and from fetters from which, if the law of the land remains as it was, very serious results might have flowed, and more to the working classes than any other class of the community. We have to-day gone a step further, and, in the measure which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has outlined, we are providing the best security which long and deliberate consideration can suggest for the free influx from all quarters of the earth of food and material upon which our population and industry depend. I quite agree with my hon. Friend that these two steps, important as they are, would not be adequate to the emergency which, unhappily, we have now to contemplate, unless we went one step further and contemplated the problem of distribution. In regard to that, I can assure him that it has been engaging our most anxious attention for days past. I hope, I do not say tomorrow, but in the course of the next two or three days, to submit to the House proposals in regard to that matter which will complete the scheme.
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORD: What the Prime Minister has told us is very satisfactory. We recognise that it is a most difficult problem, because we have no machinery for distribution at this moment. It is easier to get food in than it will be to distribute it. However, after the Prime
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  Minister has assured us that he is looking into that matter, I will submit no further remarks upon it except to endorse the remarks of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. A. Henderson). I desire to put one or two questions to the Prime Minister. Shall we start with the fact that coal and food are contraband of war? It makes the problem very difficult if we discover they are contraband afterwards. It would be much wiser for us to make our arrangements on the basis that food and coal will be contraband. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), that if we go to war there will be a tremendous gap for the reason that the shipper—not the shipowner—is the most nervous man in the country. From the time he gets his cargo on board until he receives a telegram stating its arrival, he is always in and out of Lloyd's. For that special reason it is very important that the distribution scheme should be thoroughly organised at once. I would also ask the Prime Minister a question with regard to neutrals. We have a large number of neutrals that bring food and raw material to this country. Do they come under this insurance proposal—I mean ships belonging to neutral Powers? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, only British ships."] Another question I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman is, if it is elected to start with food as contraband of war, what steps shall we take in the Mediterranean with those vessels which are conveying food in large quantities to Italy, because they will be able to supply Austria and Germany if we go to war. For that reason, we ought to decide now whether or not food and coal are contraband of war. It will make a very serious difference to us if we go to war, whether food and coal are declared contraband or not.
  It being half an hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two minutes after Four o'clock.

WAR IN EUROPE.
  AUSTRIA-HUNGARY AND SERVIA.
  AUSTRIA-HUNGARY AND SERVIA.
NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
  MATERNITY BENEFIT.
  MATERNITY BENEFIT.
  APPROVED SOCIETIES.
  APPROVED SOCIETIES.
  SURGICAL APPLIANCES.
  SURGICAL APPLIANCES.
  Undeveloped Land Duty.
  Undeveloped Land Duty.
  Tea Duty.
  Tea Duty.
  Sugar Tax.
  Sugar Tax.
  Super-tax.
  Super-tax.
  Income Tax.
  Income Tax.
  Supplementary Estimates.
  Supplementary Estimates.
  Inland Revenue.
  Inland Revenue.
  Revising Barristers (Ireland).
  Revising Barristers (Ireland).
  Central Welsh Board (Education).
  Central Welsh Board (Education).
  Straits Settlements and Malay States.
  Straits Settlements and Malay States.
INDIA.
  UNIVERSITIES.
  UNIVERSITIES.
  MAJOR-GENERAL MERCER.
  MAJOR-GENERAL MERCER.
  Ship Repair Work (Newport).
  Ship Repair Work (Newport).
  Garden City (East Preston).
  Garden City (East Preston).
  Burnley Smallholders' Association.
  Burnley Smallholders' Association.
  Labour Exchanges.
  Labour Exchanges.
  Livestock (Railway Transit).
  Livestock (Railway Transit).
  Paisley and Greenock Industrial Schools.
  Paisley and Greenock Industrial Schools.

CALLING OUT OF THE ARMY RESERVE AND EMBODIMENT OF THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.
Message from the King: Delivered by the Lord Privy Seal (M. Crewe), and read as follows:
"The present state of public affairs in "Europe constituting in the opinion "of His Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the Acts of "Parliament in that behalf, His Majesty "deems it proper to provide additional "means for the Military Service, and, "therefore, in pursuance of these Acts, "His Majesty has thought it right to "communicate to the House of Lords "that His Majesty is, by proclamation, "about to order that the Army Reserve "shall be called out on permanent ser "vice; that soldiers who would other "wise be entitled, in pursuance of the "terms of their enlistment to be trans "ferred to the Reserve, shall continue in "Army Service for such period, not "exceeding the period for which they "might be required to serve if they were "transferred to the Reserve and called "out for permanent service, as to His "Majesty may seem expedient; and that "such directions as may seem necessary "may be given for embodying the Terri "torial Force and for making such special "arrangements as may be proper with "regard to units or individuals whose "services may be required in other than "a military capacity."
Then it was moved that the acid Message be taken into consideration forthwith: The same was agreed to, and the said Message considered accordingly: Then it was moved That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty thanking His Majesty for His most gracious Message communicating to this House His Majesty's intention to call out the Army Reserve on permanent service and to cause the Territorial Force to be embodied; agreed to, nemine dissentiente: Ordered That the said Address be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 20) BILL.
Committed for To-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 19) BILL.
Committee to meet To-morrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Monk Bretton be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Glenconner; read, and agreed to.
LEIGHTON BUZZARD GAS BILL. [H.L.]
GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
LEEDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
EDENBRIDGE AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
SKEGNESS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

WEYMOUTH AND MELCOM BE REGIS CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendments: A further Amendment made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
CLERGY MUTUAL ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL.
ISLE OF THANET GAS BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
OXFORD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SOUTH WESTERN AND ISLE OF WIGHT JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
GAS PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
ALEXANDRA (NEWPORT AND SOUTH WALES) DOCKS AND RAILWAY BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
NORTHWICH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
RIDDINGS DISTRICT GAS BILL.
SOUTHEND GAS BILL.
WADHURST AND DISTRICT GAS BILL.
BRECON AND MERTHYR TYDFIL JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

EDINBURGH AND DISTRICT WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2ª To-morrow.
GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
CLYDE NAVIGATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
To be read 3ª To-morrow.
YORK CORPORATION BILL.
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.

MALL APPROACH IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACTS.
1. Regulations, dated 29th July 1914, entitled the National Health (Voluntary Rate) Regulations, 1914;
2. Regulations, dated 29th July 1914, entitled the National health Insurance (Tables of Reserve Values Regulations, 1914;
3. Regulations, dated 31st July 1914, entitled the National Health Insurance (Method of taking a Poll) Regulations, 1914;
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and to be printed. (No. 212.)

BRITISH NATIONALITY AND STATUS OF ALIENS BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT, 1911 (PART II AMENDMENT) BILL.
To be read 2ª on Thursday next (The Lord Granard (E. Granard).)
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3ª To-morrow.

PACK-BERESFORD'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, I take this opportunity of saying that this Bill has been in the hands, so far as its judicial side is concerned, of Lord Halsbury and Lord Atkinson, and I am going to ask my noble and learned friend Lord Atkinson, who is familiar with what has taken place with regard to the Bill, to deal with it in Committee.
Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
The Settlement dated the twenty-seventh day of July One thousand nine hundred and four varied.
7.—The said Indenture of Settlement of the Twenty-seventh day of July One thousand nine hundred and four shall be and the same is hereby varied and shall be read and have effect henceforth as if the life interest given by the said Settlement to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund had been omitted and as if the life or other interest thereby given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund had extended to the income of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund and as if no reversionary life interest had been thereby given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the said

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Ten thousand pounds Fund and the special power of appointment in favour of children and issue of the said marriage by the said settlement given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford over the Thirty thousand pounds Fund and the Ten thousand pounds Fund respectively in the events in the said Settlement mentioned shall be and the same is hereby made presently exercisable as if the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford had died in the lifetime of the said Henry John Pack-Beresford without ever having exercised the said special power of appointment thereby given to her over or in respect of the same funds and no consent of the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford shall henceforth be required to the exercise by the trustees or trustee for the time being of the said Settlement or any power thereby given to them or him. And the power by the said Settlement given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford to appoint a life interest in the income of the Thirty thousand pounds Fund to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the event of his surviving her and also the power thereby given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the event of her marrying again to revoke the trusts declared by the said Settlement concerning any part or parts of the trust funds and property thereby settled and to settle the same upon trusts for the benefit of a future husband and the children or issue of a future marriage shall he and the same are hereby extinguished. And the power to appoint a new trustee or new trustees of the said Settlement shall henceforth be exercisable by the said Henry John Pack-Beresford during his life as if the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford were dead. Provided always that nothing in this Act contained shall prejudice or affect the general power of appointment given by the said Settlement to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford as hereinbefore mentioned in the event of there being no child of the said marriage who shall being a son attain the age of 21 years or being a daughter attain that age or marry under that age.
LORD ATKINSON: My Lords, this Bill was introduced to dissolve the marriage of Henry John Pack-Beresford, of Kellestown House, in the County of Carlow, Major, with Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford, his now wife. The Bill was read a second time, but Clause 7 contained provisions as to the reformation of the marriage settlement which appeared to noble Lords who were present at the Second Reading to be objectionable. Since then the parties have agreed upon a clause which meets with the entire approval of those noble Lords, and I therefore move that Clause 7 now in the Bill be omitted and that the amended clause be inserted in lieu thereof.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 7 and insert the following new clause:
7. The said Indenture of Settlement of the 27th day of July 1904 shall be and the same is hereby varied and shall be read and have effect henceforth as if the life interest given by the said Settlement to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund had
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been omitted and as if the life or other interest thereby given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund had extended to the income of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund and as if no reversionary life interest had been thereby given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the said Ten thousand pounds Fund and as if a provision were inserted therein in priority to the trusts in the said Settlement in favour of the issue of the said marriage that if both of them the said Denis John Pack-Beresford and Tristram Anthony Pack-Beresford shall die without having attained the age of 21 years the life or other interest by the said Settlement or this Act given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund and in the income of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund (if such interest shall be then still subsisting) shall thenceforth be confined to the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund and to the income of one half only of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund and subject to such life or other interest as so confined the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund and of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund shall be paid to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford if she shall be then living during her life for her separate use without power of anticipation during any coverture And (without prejudice to the contingent life interest by this Act given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the income of the said Ten thousand pounds Fund and in the income of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund as aforesaid) the special power of appointment in favour of issue of the said marriage by the said Settlement given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford over the Thirty thousand pounds Fund and the Ten thousand pounds Fund respectively in the events in the said Settlement mentioned shall be and the same is hereby made presently exerciseable as if the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford had died in the lifetime of the said Henry John Pack-Beresford without loving exercised the special power of appointment by the said Settlement given to her over or in respect of the same Funds Provided always that no issue of the said marriage shall take a vested interest in either of the said Funds under any appointment which may be made by the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in exercise of the special power of appointment exerciseable by him as aforesaid unless such issue shall being male attain the age of 21 years or shall being female attain that age or marry And in the event of the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford surviving the determination by death or otherwise of the life or other interest by the said Settlement and this Act given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the income of the said Funds the trusts arising under any exercise of such last mentioned power as well as the trusts by the said Settlement declared concerning the said Funds in default of appointment by the said Henry John Pack-Beresford shall (but without prejudice to the contingent life interest by this Act given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford as aforesaid) be accelerated and have effect as if the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford had died previously to such determination. And no consent of the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford shall henceforth be required to the exercise by the trustees or trustee for the time being of the said Settlement of any power thereby given to them or him And the power by the said Settlement given to the said Sybil

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Maud Pack-Beresford to appoint a life interest in the income of the said Thirty thousand pounds Fund to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford in the event of his surviving her is hereby extinguished And the power thereby given to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the event of her marrying again to revoke the trusts declared by the said Settlement concerning any part or parts of the trust funds and property thereby settled and to settle the same upon trusts for the benefit of a future husband and the children or issue of a future marriage shall operate and have effect only in the event of both of them the said Denis John Pack-Beresford and Tristram Anthony Pack-Beresford dying under the age of 21 years and without prejudice to any life or other interest by the said Settlement or this Act given to the said Henry John Pack-Beresford Provided always that nothing in this Act contained shall prejudice or affect the general power of appointment given by the said Settlement to the said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford in the event of there being no child of the said marriage who shall being a son attain the age of 21 years or being a daughter attain that age or marry under that age or the ultimate trusts in default of appointment thereunder.—(Lord Atkinson.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8:
Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford prohibited from marrying Charles Stewart Burnett.
8. The said Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford shall not inter-marry with the said Charles Stewart Burnett and any marriage celebrated between them shall be null and void.
LORD ATKINSON: This clause has been introduced according to the usual practice, and I move that it be omitted according to the same practice.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 8.—(Lord Atkinson.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then Standing Order No. XXXIX considered (according to Order) and dispensed with: Amendments reported: Bill read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Reduction of imprisonment on payment of installments of fine.
3.—(1) Where an offender is liable to be imprisoned in respect of the non-payment of any sum of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of a court of summary jurisdiction, and the offender before the issue of a warrant of commitment pays, to any person authorised to receive the same, any sum in part payment of the suns adjudged to be paid, the period for which he is liable to be imprisoned shall thereupon be reduced by a number of days bearing, as nearly as possible, the same proportion tothe total number of days for which the offender is sentenced to be imprisoned as the sum paid bears to the sum adjudged to be paid.
(2) Where a person is sentenced to imprisonment or committed to prison in respect of the non-payment of any suns of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of a court of summary jurisdiction, there shall be stated in the conviction order or warrant of commitment the amount, omitting fractions of a penny, the payment of which represents an abatement of one day's imprisonment, and no part payment shall be accepted under this section, or under section nine of the Prison Act, 1898, unless the amount of the part payment is the amount so stated in the conviction or order, or, as the case may be, in the warrant of commitment, or some multiple thereof.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to leave out Clause 3 and to insert the new clause standing in my name on the Paper. The new clause corrects in various drafting particulars the clause as it stands in the Bill. The points in which the new clause differs from the existing clause are minor points, and they are all in the direction of improving the working of the clause; and the improvements, I may add, are in favour of the subject.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 3 and insert the following new clause:
Reduction of imprisonment on part payment of sums adjudged to be paid.
.—(1) Where a term of imprisonment is imposed by a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of the non-payment of any sum of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of that or any other court of summary jurisdiction, that term shall, on payment of a part of such sum to any person authorised to receive it, be reduced by a number of days bearing as nearly as possible the same proportion to the total number of days in the term as the sum paid bears to the sum adjudged to be paid:
Provided, that in reckoning the number of days by which any terns of imprisonment would be reduced under this section, the first day of imprisonment shall not be taken into account, and that, in reckoning the suns which will secure the reduction of a term of imprisonment, fractions of a penny shall be omitted.
(2) Whenever a court of summary jurisdiction imposes a term of imprisonment in respect of such non-payment as aforesaid and allows time for payment, the court shall state the sum the payment of which will secure an abatement of one day of the imprisonment, and no part payment shall be accepted under this section unless the sum tendered is the amount so stated or some multiple thereof, and after the person has been committed to prison no part payment shall be accepted under this section until payment has been made in full of the court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment.
(3) Provision may be made by rules under section twenty-nine of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, as to the application of sums paid under this section and for determining the persons authorised to receive such payments and the conditions under which such payments may be made.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD PARMOOR: There is one point in the alternative clause moved by the noble and learned Viscount to which I should like to call attention. The words to which I allude are at the end of subsection (2), "and after the person has been committed to prison no part payment shall be accepted under this section until payment has been made in full of the Court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment." There was no proposal of that kind in the original Clause 3, and my objection to it is this. I look upon this Bill as most important in drawing a proper differentiation between fines and fees, and the great value of the Bill is that, although certain punishments should be inflicted as regards fines, they should not be inflicted merely as regards the payment of fees. The wrong principle in the matter of fees has been got rid of by the front door, but it is re-introduced again in this subsection in a form which was not in the Bill as presented to the House. To my mind the provision is wrong in principle. There is no reason whatever why a person should not be allowed by proportionate payments to get a reduction in imprisonment apart from the full Court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he would not take into consideration the desirability of deleting the words that I have read, because they really re-introduce the very principle which, at any rate in my view, this Bill has been brought in to put an end to as far as possible. The reintroduction of this principle is, in my opinion, out of accord with the principle of the Bill and might work great hardship. Personally I think prisoners should not have to pay any Court fees. Supposing there was a difficulty in the case of a work-
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ing man paying the full Court fees he would, under subsection (2) of the Lord Chancellor's proposed new clause, be kept in prison for a longer period than he ought to be kept there. I therefore hope that the noble and learned Viscount will see that this provision is really inconsistent with the general principle of the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am anxious to meet my noble and learned friend, and I think the most convenient way in which to do so would be to drop subsection (2) of my Amendment. The subsection would be useful in some respects but it is not vital, and the dropping of it will get rid of my noble and learned friend's objection. I quite recognise the point which he makes, and as I am anxious to get your Lordships' assent to this Bill I will meet my noble and learned friend by dropping subsection (2).
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I understand that the Lord Chancellor moves his new clause as printed, but omitting subsection (2).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR nodded assent.
On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Provisions for enforcement of payment of fines, &c.
4.—(1) Where a person has been summarily convicted of any offence and sentenced or ordered by a court of summary jurisdiction on a summons for arrears of a bastardy or maintenance order to pay a sum of money the court by which he is convicted may order him to be searched and any money found on him on apprehension or when so searched or which may be found on him when taken to prison in default of payment of the sum so adjudged to be paid shall, subject to any directions given by t he court, be applied towards the payment of the sum so adjudged to be paid, and the surplus, if any, shall be returned to him.
(2) Where a warrant of distress is issued by a court of summary jurisdiction it shall authorise the persons charged with the execution thereof to take any money as well as any goods of the person against whom the distress is levied, and any money so taken shall be treated as if it were the proceeds of sale of goods taken under the warrant, and the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts shall apply accordingly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My first Amendment—to leave out from subsection (1) all words after "Where a person has been" down to tie word "convicted," and to insert other words—is purely drafting.

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Amendments were inserted in the other House which make the sentence run rather awkwardly, and I move to amend it.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 9, leave out from ("been") to the end of line 12 and insert ("adjudged to pay a sum by a conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction, or in proceedings in any such court for enforcing an order in any matter of bastardy, or an order under which weekly sums are made payable towards the maintenance of a wife, the court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to leave out from the same subsection the words "shall, subject to any directions given by the Court," and to insert "may, unless the Court otherwise directs." And I further move to insert, at the end of the clause, the proviso standing in my name. This is to give more direction and more latitude, and I think it is an improvement.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("shall, subject to any directions given by the court") and inesrt ("may, unless the court otherwise directs")
Page 3, line 18, after ("him") insert ("Pro vided that the money shall not be so applied if the court is satisfied that the money does not belong to the person on whom it was found, or that the loss of the money will be more injurious to his family than his imprisonment").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Payment and allocation of fines and tees.
5.—(1) A court of summary jurisdiction in fixing the amount of any fine to be imposed on an offender shall take into consideration, amongst other things, the means of the offender so far as they appear or are known to the court; and where a fine is imposed the payment of the court fees and police fees payable in the case up to and including conviction shall not be imposed in addition to the line, but the amount of the fine, or of such part thereof as may be paid or recovered, shall be applied as follows:—

(a) in the first place in the repayment to the informant or complainant of any court or police fees paid by him;

(b) in the second place in the payment of any court fees not already paid by the informant or complainant, which may be payable under the table of fees set out in the First Schedule to this Act;

(c) in the third place in the payment of any police fees not already paid by the informant or complainant; and

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(d) the balance (if any) remaining after the aforesaid payments have been made shall be paid to the fund or person to which the fine is directed to he paid by the enactments relating to the offence in respect of which the fine was imposed, or if there is no such fund or person, then to the fund into which the court fees are paid.

(2) Nothing in this section shall prevent the court from adjudging the offender to pay in addition to any fine imposed by the court any sum in respect of costs or expenses, other than such fees aforesaid, properly incurred by the informant or complainant or other person in respect of the proceedings.
LORD PARMOOR: I think it is extremely hard, particularly in education cases, that any sum should be paid by the parent who is summoned except the actual fine, and I want to make it quite clear that the expenses of the attendance officer, who is the officer of the local authority, shall not be charged against the parent if he is at fault in reference to sending his child to school.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 31, subsection (1), after ("conviction") insert ("or of any expenses incurred by an officer or representative of a local authority").—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that my noble and learned friend will not press this Amendment to-day. If he thinks he must press it, I would ask him to bring it up again on Report. There is a considerable difference between the expenses of an officer of the local authority and the fees; the expenses are not a fixed amount, and it would add considerable complication to the clause if this change were made. I therefore ask my noble and learned friend not to press the Amendment unless he feels that he has strong reason for doing so, in which case I would ask him to bring it up on Report.
LORD PARMOOR: If the noble and learned Viscount wishes me to withdraw the Amendment at the present time I will do so. But I would point out that it is just these expenses which, if they are charged in addition to the fine, often bring about a hardship and result in sending a person to prison whom no one desires should go to prison.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD PARMOOR: I desire to move, in subsection (1), after the words "shall not" ["shall not be imposed in addition to the fine"], to insert "be taken into consideration in fixing the amount of fine or." I think it is important that a positive direction should be given that in fixing the amount of the fine the justices should not have regard to the Court fees at all. Although they have discretion to omit these fees, the justices very often do not do so. They invariably say that they do not desire to put the expense on the county. In my view that is a very poor answer to the real point—namely, that the fine should be the matter of punishment, and that the other expenses should be eliminated in every possible way.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 32, after ("not") insert ("be taken into consideration in fixing the amount of fine or").—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble and learned Lord has made a good point here, and I am glad to accept his Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PARMOOR: I want to put myself in order by formally moving to omit subsection (2) of Clause 5. The result of this subsection is this, that you might have a fine of a shilling and yet you might have costs imposed—
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I would point out to Lord Parmoor that there is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the Lord Chancellor to amend subsection (2), and that Amendment, of course, ought to come first.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Amendment is to add, at the end of subsection (2), the words "or in respect of any compensation which the Court may have power to award." A doubt has been entertained as to whether the words as they stand might not take away the existing power of the Court in statutory cases to award compensation in addition to a fine, and it is desirable to make that quite clear. That is the object of this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, after ("proceedings") insert ("or in respect of any compensation which the court may have power to award").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD PARMOOR: What I wanted to say upon this subsection is this. You might have costs charged against a poor man which might come to as much as £2 2s. or £2 10s. That would depend on the number of witnesses who happened to be called. The present practice is to impose a fine of the whole amount. In a case where the costs came to £2 10s. that would bring the fine to £2 11s., whereas the fine as a matter of punishment would be only one shilling. I am anxious that an anomaly of that kind should not be preserved, and that there should not be the power of adding costs which might amount to £2 10s. to a fine of only one shilling. I will not ask the noble and learned Viscount for any undertaking on the matter at the moment, but I would ask him to give the point his careful consideration before the Report stage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will have the question of principle considered before the Report stage. Meanwhile I hope the House will add the words which I have moved.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to add to Clause 5 a new subsection, the object of which is simply to define what is meant by "police fees."
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, after subsection (2) insert as a new subsection:
(3) In this section the expression "police fees" means all duly authorised fees payable to any constable in the execution of his duty.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6:
Uniform scale of court fees as respects all courts of summary jurisdiction.
6.—(1) The table of court fees set out in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect in all courts of summary jurisdiction, and shall be substituted for any table of fees in force at the commencement of this Act in any court of summary jurisdiction, and references in any enactment to any table of fees for which the said table is so substituted shall be construed as references to the said table.
(2) Notwithstanding any provisions in ally other general or local Act enabling fees to be charged by clerks to justices the fees set out in Part I of that schedule, and no other fees, may be charged by clerks to justices:

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Provided that nothing in this section shall affect the fees chargeable in metropolitan police courts or the police courts of the City of London, or in respect of the matters specified in Part II of that schedule.
(3) The Secretary of State may, in the event of new or additional duties being imposed on courts of summary jurisdiction or clerks to justices, by order make such variations in the said table of fees as may seem to him to be proper, and upon such order coming into operation the table shall have effect subject to the variations made by the order:
Provided that before any such order is made a draft of the proposed order shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than thirty days during which the House is sitting, and if either of those Houses before the expiration of those thirty clays presents an address to His Majesty against the draft order or any part thereof no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of a new draft order.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move the drafting Amendments standing in my name.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 17, leave out ("table of")
Page 4, line 18, after ("which") insert ("fees in") and leave out ("is") and insert ("are")
Page 4, line 19, leave out ("said table") and insert ("fees so substituted")
Page 4, line 21, after ("Act") insert ("or in any rules made under any such Act")
Page 4, line 30, after ("justices") insert ("or for other sufficient reason").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Variation of terms and conditions of probation. 7 Edw. 7, c. 17.
9. The following section shall be substituted for section five of the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, which relates to the power of varying the conditions of recognisances:—
'The court before which any person is bound by a recognisance under this Act to appear for conviction and sentence—

(a) may at any time if it appears to it, upon the application of the probation officer, that it is expedient that the terms and conditions of the recognisance should he varied, summon the person bound by the recognisance to appear before it, and, if he fails to show cause why such variation should not be made, vary the terms of the recognisance by extending or diminishing the duration thereof, so, however, that it shall not exceed three years from the date of the original order, or by altering the conditions thereof, or by inserting additional conditions; or

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(b) may on application being made by the probation officer, and on being satisfied that the conduct of the person bound by the recognisance has been such as to make it unnecessary that he any longer be under supervision, discharge the recognisance."

THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment standing in my name to Clause 9 is purely drafting. It is to provide that where a probation order is made by a Court of Summary jurisdiction the person on probation is bound on recognisance to come up for conviction or for sentence.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 5, after ("sentence") insert ("or for sentence").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10:
Committals to Borstal Institutions.
10.—(1) Where a person is summarily convicted of any offence for which the court has power to impose a sentence of imprisonment for one month or upwards without the option of a fine, and—

(a) it appears to the court that the offender is not less than sixteen nor more than twenty-one years of age; and

(b) it is proved that the offender has previously been convicted of any offence or, that having been previously discharged on probation, he failed to observe a condition of his recognisance; and

(c) it appears to the court that by reason of the offender's criminal habits or tendencies, or association with persons of bad character, it is expedient that he should be subject to detention for such term and under such instruction and discipline as appears most conducive to his reformation and the repression of crime,

it shall be lawful for the court, in lieu of passing sentence, to commit the offender to prison until the next quarter sessions, and the court of quarter sessions shall inquire into the circumstances of the case, and if it appears to the court that the offender is of such age as aforesaid and that for any such reason as aforesaid it is expedient that the offender should be subject to such detention as aforesaid, shall pass such sentence of detention in a Borstal institution as is authorised by Part I of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908, as amended by this Act; otherwise the court shall deal with the case in any way in which the court of summary jurisdiction might have dealt with it.
(2) A court of summary jurisdiction or court of quarter sessions, before dealing with any case under this section, shall consider any report or representations which may be made to it by or on behalf of the Prison Commissioners as to the

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suitability of the offender for such detention as aforesaid, and a court of summary jurisdiction shall, where necessary, adjourn the case for the purpose of giving an opportunity for such a report or representation being made.
(3) Where a person is committed to prison under this section his treatment in prison shall, so far as practicable, be similar to that in Borstal institutions, or he may, if the Secretary of State so directs, be transferred to a Borstal institution.
(4) The Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, shall apply in the case of a person committed to prison by a court of summary jurisdiction under this section as A that person were committed for trial for an indictable offence.
(5) A person sentenced by a court of quarter sessions under this section to detention in a Borstal institution may appeal against the sentence to the Court of Criminal Appeal as if he had been convicted on indictment, and the provisions of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, shall apply accordingly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The new subsection which I move to add to this clause postpones for a little time the coming into operation of the clause with regard to Borstal institutions. The reason is that we have not got sufficient Borsta institutions and cannot provide them quick enough to make the machinery of the clause work unless we take a little time.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 32, after subsection (5) insert as a new subsection:
(6) This section shall come into operation on the first day of September nineteen hundred and fifteen.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I mentioned when I had the honour of addressing your Lordships on the Second Reading the point of the new clause which I propose to insert here. The drafting of the first subsection of Clause 10 is such that any offence for which less than a month's imprisonment can be awarded will not come under it. As a general rule, that appears to be a reasonable provision, because in most cases minor offences to which so small a term of imprisonment would be appropriate would not be the kind of offences for which Borstal treatment would be considered right, But there is a class of offence for which a very small term of imprisonment is awardable, and yet which would be very suitable for Borstal treatment. I refer to offences connected with prostitution and soliciting, which are mentioned in the schedule of which I have
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given notice. This is a matter on which there has been a considerable body of opinion in favour of a change in the law. These unfortunate children are, one would think, very suitable for Borstal treatment. They are guilty of an offence of a kind which renders it very necessary that they should be taken away from the surroundings connected with it. It follows, as a matter of course, that if they are convicted of such offences they are living amongst people and under conditions which must end in their ruin absolutely, and therefore it seems proper and reasonable, when they are convicted, that instead of being imprisoned and punished they should be sent to one of these Borstal institutions, where they not only might be restrained from further committing offences but might be cured of all propensity for doing so. The whole object and purpose of my Amendment is to make an exception in respect of this class of offence. Although the maximum punishment is very low, yet I think we should permit of Borstal treatment being awarded. I have carefully preserved the safeguard of decision by Quarter Sessions and not by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. That, of course, is a necessary protection, because detention for so long a time as a Borstal institution implies ought not to be in the power of a Court of Summary jurisdiction alone.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10, insert the following new clause:
Power to send female offenders to Borstal institutions in certain circumstances.
.—(1) Where a female who appears to the court to be not Ices than sixteen nor more than twenty-one years of age is charged before a court of summary jurisdiction with any offence mentioned in the Fifth Schedule to this Act, and the court, being of opinion that the charge is proved, discharges the female under the powers conferred by the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, on her entering into a recognizance to be of good behaviour and to appear for conviction and sentence when called on during the period specified in the order, that period may extend to the time when she attains the age of twenty-one, notwithstanding t hat it exceeds three years.
(2) Where any such female commits a breach of any condition of her recognizance; and

(a) in respect of such breach is brought or appears before the court before which she is bound by her recognisance to appear for conviction and sentence; and

(b) is by that court convicted for the original offence; and

(c) it appears to the court that she is still under the age of twenty-one;

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the court, if satisfied that by reason of her criminal habits or propensities, or association with persons of bad character, it is expedient that she should be subject to detention for such term and under such instruction and discipline as appears most conducive to her reformation and the repression of crime, may, in lieu of passing such sentence as it might have passed for the original offence, commit the offender to prison till the next quarter sessions, and the court of quarter sessions after considering the circumstances of the case shall have power to pass such sentence of detention in a Borstal institution as is authorised by Part I of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908, as amended by this Act.
(3) Before passing such sentence of detention the court shall consider any report or representations which may be made to it by, or on behalf of, the Prison Commissioners as to the suitability of the female for such detention as aforesaid, and shall when necessary adjourn the case for the purpose of giving an opportunity of such a report or recommendation being made.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have very great sympathy with the clause which the noble Marquess has moved. My difficulty about it is not a very satisfactory difficulty. I agree with the noble Marquess's object, and the Government took that view elsewhere; but there arose such a controversy about the whole question of the treatment suitable for the reformation of young prostitutes that it was found that if the clause was pressed the Bill would he in peril. If we put it in now, we revive that controversy; and I am doubtful as to how it may affect the Bill elsewhere. But I am entirely in sympathy with the noble Marquess, and I can say to him that we shall not leave this question out of account. We have done something in Clause 8, where he will see that in probation cases we put in power to prescribe conditions and terms which will cover residence. Therefore, something is done in this Bill to meet the point of view of the noble Marquess. I entirely agree that this is a reform which I hope Parliament will see its way to agree to very soon.
LORD PARMOOR: I was going to ask the noble Marquess not to press this Amendment. This is a matter which has been fully considered by those interested in criminal procedure, and the majority of opinion is not in favour at the present time of mixing up questions of immorality with criminal questions to be dealt with under the Borstal system. There may be need of very special treatment in these cases. I should agree entirely with the noble Marquess on that. But I do not
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think that this is the proper way of dealing with it, and I am sure that the form in which, his clause is drafted would create difficulties.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: After what has been said by the noble and learned Viscount and by the noble and learned Lord who has just sat down, it is clear that there is an important body of opinion which is not satisfied that this clause is wise. In these circumstances I feel the full force of what the Lord Chancellor said, that the insertion of such a clause might imperil the passage of the Bill. Therefore I ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am very thankful to the noble Marquess for taking that course.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Substitution of police custody for imprisonment in case of short sentences.
13.—(1) No person shall be sentenced to imprisonment by a court of summary jurisdiction for a period of less than five days.
(2) Where a person is liable to be sentenced to imprisonment by a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may, if any suitable places provided and certified in manner hereinafter appearing are available for the purpose, order the person to be detained therein for such period not exceeding four days as the court thinks fit, and the order shall be delivered with the offender to the person in charge of the place where the offender is to be detained, and shall be a sufficient authority for his detention in that place in accordance with the tenour thereof.
(3) The expenses of the maintenance of persons detained under this section shall be defrayed in like manner as the expenses of the maintenance of prisoners in prisons to which the Prisons Act, 1877, applies.
(4) The Secretary of State may, on the application of any police authority, certify any police cells, bridewells, or other similar places provided by the authority to be suitable places for the detention of persons sentenced to detention under this section, and may make regulations for the inspection of places so provided, the treatment of persons detained therein, and generally for carrying this section into effect:
Provided that no place shall be certified unless provision is made for the supervision of female prisoners by female officers.
(5) For the purposes of this section the expression "police authority," with respect to the City of London, means the Commissioner of City Police, and with respect to other places has the same meaning as in the Police Act, 1890.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Moved to amend the proviso to subsection (4) so that it should read, "Provided that no place so certified shall be used for the detention of females unless provision is made for their supervision by female officers." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Amendments to this clause are purely formal. It was intended to put a restriction on the use of police cells where there were no female officers appointed for female prisoners. That is quite right, and we adhere to that. But there may be cases in which cells have been arranged so as to be quite suitable for that purpose but where there are no female officers. I propose to put in words the effect of which is that police cells should not be certified so long as their use for the detention of female prisoners is prohibited.
Amendments moved—
Page 9, line 10, leave out ("shall be certified") and insert ("so certified shall be used for the detention of females")
Page 9, line 11, leave out ("the supervision of female prisoners") and insert ("their supervision").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Provisions as to malicious damage to property.
14—(1) If any person wilfully or maliciously commits any damage to any real or personal property whatsoever either of a public or private nature, and the amount of the damage does not exceed twenty pounds, he shall be liable on summary conviction—

(a) if the amount of the damage exceeds five pounds, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds; and

(b) if the amount of the damage is five pounds or less, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two months or to a fine not exceeding five pounds;

and in either case to the payment of such further amount as appears to the court reasonable compensation for the damage so committed which last-mentioned amount shall, if the property damaged was private property, be paid to the party aggrieved:
Provided that this provision shall not apply where the alleged offender acted under a fair and reasonable supposition that he had a right to do the act complained of.
(2) So much of section fifty-one of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861, as limits the cases which may be dealt with under that section to cases where the damage injury or spoil exceeds five pounds shall be repealed but a court of summary jurisdiction shall not commit any person for trial for an offence under that section unless it is of opinion that the damage injury or spoil exceeds five pounds.
(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as preventing a court of summary jurisdiction from committing a person for trial for an offence notwithstanding that the offence is an offence which the court has power to deal with summarily under this section.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of my first three Amendments is to prevent a technical point being taken which might be an awkward one. There is a danger that where a person is summarily convicted of committing wilful and malicious damage to property which appears on the face of it not to exceed £20 in value, he may appeal on the question of the value of the property. The object of these Amendments is to make that conclusive as far as appeal goes.
Amendments moved—
Page 9, line 19, after ("not") insert ("in the opinion of the court")
Page 9, line 21, after ("damage") insert ("in the opinion of the court")
Page 9, line 24, after ("is") insert ("in the opinion of the court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My next Amendment to leave out, at the end of subsection (1), the words "if the property damaged was private property" deals with a small point. The words "private property" would exclude the case in which the property so damaged belonged to the public—for in stance, telegraph wires belonging to the Postmaster-General. There is no reason why in such cases compensation should not be paid to the Exchequer, following the precedent in other cases.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, lines 29 and 30, leave out ("if the property damaged was private property").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved,
Page 9, line 41, at the beginning of the line insert ("Except so far as otherwise provided in the last foregoing subsection").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Hard labour and classification of prisoners.
16.—(1) Where imprisonment is imposed by any court in respect of the non-payment of any sum adjudged by that or any other court to be paid the imprisonment shall be without hard labour.
Where a person convicted by or before any court of an offence is sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a line the imprisonment may, in the discretion of the court, be either with or without hard labour, notwithstanding that the offence is an offence at common law or that the statute under which the sentence is passed does not authorise the imposition of hard labour or requires the imposition of hard labour.
(2) If no direction is given by a court in pursuance of the powers conferred by section six of the Prison Act, 1898, as to the division in which an offender is to be placed, the offender shall, subject to the provisions of that section, be treated as an offender of the third division unless the visiting committee on the application of the governor of the prison consider the ease suitable for treatment in the second division, and direct that the offender be so treated. Subsection (2) of that section shall be amended by the insertion after the words "without hard labour" of the words "or committed to prison for nonpayment of a fine."
(3) A court or visiting committee shall not direct an offender to be treated as an offender of the second division if his character and antecedents are such that he is likely to exercise a bad influence on first offenders.
(4) The provisions of subsections (1) and (2) of section six of the Prison Act, 1898, as amended by this section, which relate to the classification of offenders sentenced to imprisonment for offences shall apply to cases where the person is sentenced to imprisonment for failing to do or to abstain from doing any act or thing required to be done or left undone.
(5) Subsection (3) of the same section (which requires that certain prisoners shall be placed in a separate division and treated under special rules and shall not be placed in association with criminal prisoners nor be compelled to wear prison dress unless their own clothing is unfit for use), shall extend to persons committed to prison for contempt of court, and accordingly the words "or for contempt of court" shall be inserted in that subsection after the words "hard labour."
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I move to omit from subsection (2) the words "on the application of the governor of the prison." This clause introduces a new principle in our prison system—namely, that after a Court has awarded a particular sentence some person other than the Home Secretary should have a right to modify it. Up to now the sentence of the Court has been final and conclusive, except through His Majesty's intervention by the hand of his Home Secretary. But here it is provided that if no direction is given by the Court as to the division in which an offender is to be placed, the visiting justices shall have power to modify the decision. As
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your Lordships are aware, if no division is mentioned the imprisonment is in the third division; but in this subsection it is proposed that the visiting justices shall be able to say that it shall be, not in the third division, but in the second division. That is an application—a small application, no doubt—of a new principle. The visiting justices have no jurisdiction whatever in respect of the sentences of prisoners. Their whole function is the good conduct and discipline of the prison. Where they punish a prisoner it is because of a breach of discipline in the prison itself. Otherwise they do not have anything to do with the punishment of the prisoner beyond seeing that it is properly carried out according to law. The provision which the Government make is that the visiting justices should have power to modify the punishment, but they insert the condition that it is to be "on the application of the governor of the prison." From the form of the wording it would seem that the person who really decides the matter is the governor of the prison, and that the visiting justices are merely the countersigning authority. The governor of the prison is a very important public servant, but he does not, of course, have anything like the status of the visiting justices; and to give the impression, which the wording of this subsection does, that the act is to be the governor's, with only, as it were, the sanction of the visiting justices, seems to me to put the whole weight upon the wrong side. I do not very much care about actually leaving out the words if the Government would modify them. But the simplest course appears to me to be to leave out the words and then the decision would be the decision of the visiting justices alone, no doubt advised by the governor and with all the necessary reports from him, but there would then be no doubt as to whose business it would be and upon whom the responsibility would really lie for the decision.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 43, leave out ("on the application of the governor of the prison").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am quite ready to accept the noble Marquess's Amendment. As your Lordships know, there is not very much difference so far as the treatment of a prisoner is concerned between the third division and the second division, but there is a difference in the

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character of those who are there. It is right, I think, to give visiting justices this discretion. Therefore I am glad to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18:
Consecutive sentences of imprisonment.
18. Where a sentence of imprisonment is passed on any person by a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may order that the sentence shall commence at the expiration of any other term of imprisonment to which that person has been previously sentenced, so however that where two or more sentences passed by a court of summary jurisdiction are ordered to run consecutively the aggregate terns of imprisonment shall not exceed six months.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I have been asked to move, on behalf of the justices of the City of Liverpool, an Amendment to add at the end of Clause 18 the words—
"unless such sentences included at least two sentences for indictable offences dealt with summarily by consent or on a plea of guilty, in which case the aggregate term of imprisonment shall not exceed twelve months."
I believe that this particular Amendment was down on the Paper in the House of Commons and was, I understand, favourably entertained by the Home Secretary, but it was not actually moved through some error. I will not detain the House upon the Amendment now, but will put it down for Report, when I hope the noble and learned Viscount will see his way to accept it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Earl will hand his Amendment in tonight we will consider it before the Report stage, when I shall be able to give him my answer.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19:
Continuous bail.
19. Where a person is remanded on bail the recognisance may be conditioned for his appearance at every time and place to which during the course of the proceedings the hearing may be from time to time adjourned, without prejudice, however, to the power of the court to vary its order at any subsequent hearing.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to substitute the word "the" for the word "its" in the last line but one of this clause,. The object of this Amendment is to make sure that a Court which did not make the order can act in the second stage of the proceedings.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 28, leave out ("its") and insert ("the").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 23 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: In moving to insert a new clause after Clause 23 I do not desire to detain your Lordships for more than a moment or two, because I said all I have to say on this subject on the Second Reading. I would merely repeat that my new clause seeks to remedy what I think all your Lordships will agree is a serious mischief in the present condition of our law—namely, that a man may remain in prison untried for a very long period. I gave on the Second Reading an actual case in my own experience, where a man was imprisoned for five months before being tried and was then acquitted. In such a case a most flagrant injustice is inflicted, and the law provides no compensation whatever. If the man is admitted to bail, there is no such objection. But in certain circumstances magistrates do not admit the offender to bail, and I do not criticise them for that, because they are sometimes compelled through the circumstances of the case—the offender may be a tramp—to refuse to allow bail. But however poor the offender is and however ragged, that is no reason why he should be treated abominably unjustly, and he is treated abominably unjustly if he is imprisoned for a very long time without being, tried.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:
Speedy trial of prisoners.
.Where a court of summary jurisdiction commits a person for trial and does not admit him to bail, or where on being offered bail such person is unable to enter into the recognisance required, the court shall if in their opinion an unduly long period must lapse before the trial can take place at the next assizes or quarter sessions, and if the person committed consents,

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commit him for trial at the Central Criminal Court, and the trial of a person so committed shall be proceeded with at that court and with the like consequences as if a writ of certiorari had been issued under the Central Criminal Courts Act, 1856.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With the object which the noble Marquess has in view I am in complete sympathy, and I am in consultation with the Judges as to how the matter can be best dealt with. If we get the two new Judges recommended by the Committee over which Lord St. Aldwyn presided, we shall be able to do a great deal to remedy this. Even without it, the Judges have taken such steps as they can to meet this point. We all recognise the evil, and it occurs very often from want of Judicial strength. But the remedy proposed in this particular Amendment might be worse than the disease. Suppose a prisoner at Leeds is sent for trial to the Central Criminal Court, he would in that case have to bring his witnesses up from Leeds and that might be beyond his means. I think it is much better to try these cases locally if you can. In the case of the home counties a difficulty sometimes occurs even there. As the noble Marquess knows, there is already power to extend the district of the Central Criminal Court so as to take in these counties, though the home counties do not quite agree to this course being taken. I think myself that the greatest hope of a remedy lies in the action of the Judges themselves, particularly if their number is increased. Though I cannot accept the Amendment for the reasons I have pointed out, the matter is not being lost sight of but is actually under consideration.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I recognise the difficulty which the noble and learned Viscount has explained to your Lordships, and I do not intend to press the Amendment. But may I say this by way of suggestion. The difficulty arises in a most especial degree with respect to offences which are not tryable at Quarter Sessions and which must wait for Assizes. The particular case which I quoted to your Lordships was one such. It was a case of arson, and therefore could not be tried at Quarter Sessions. I do not know whether I shall shock the noble and learned Viscount, but it has always seemed to me that the distinction which is drawn between offences which are tryable at Quarter Sessions and offences which are not is a very arbitrary
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distinction, with the exception of homicide. It is quite right that cases of homicide should be reserved for Assizes. But I see no reason why arson should be distinguished from burglary, for example, which was made tryable at Quarter Sessions. Neither do I see why rape should be distinguished. If, therefore, the Lord Chancellor thought it wise to introduce a Bill making all these offences, with the exception of homicide, tryable at Quarter Sessions and then arranged for adjourned Quarter Sessions to consider cases such as I have described, he would meet the difficulty.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will consider what the noble Marquess has said, and take advice about it.
LORD PARMOOR: As the noble Viscount is going to consider this question, will he remember that since the institution of the Court of Criminal Appeal there is ample security that anything done at Quarter Sessions if it is improperly done can be set aside in the interests of the prisoner. I might mention that as regards the cases brought before the Court of Criminal Appeal, less often has an appeal been successful from a Court of Quarter Sessions than from His Majesty's Judges of Assize. That has been the practical result. I think that if the jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions was enlarged, subject as it is now to appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal, all difficulties under this head would be met.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 24 and 25 agreed to.
Clause 26:
Provisions with respect to holders of licences and persons under police supervision. 54 & 55 Vict. c. 69. 34 & 35 Vict. c. 112.
26.—(1) An order under subsection (2) of section four of the Penal Servitude Act, 1891, remitting the requirements of sections five and eight of the Prevention of Crimes Act, 1871, in the case of any holder of a licence or person subject to the supervision of the police, may be made conditional on the observance of such conditions as may be specified in the order, and if the Secretary of State is satisfied that any condition imposed by the order has been contravened he may cancel the order
(2) Where His Majesty has been pleased to revoke the licence granted to any convict under the Penal Servitude Acts, 1853, to 1891 the convict shall thereupon be liable to be arrested without warrant by any constable and brought

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before a court of summary jurisdiction, and the court on being satisfied that he is the convict named in the licence and that the licence has been revoked, shall commit him to prison and forthwith send notice to the Secretary of State.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 28, subsection (1), after ("remitting") insert ("any of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27:
Power to issue warrants of arrest in certain cases.
27. Where under any Act, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act, there is power to arrest a person without warrant, a court of summary jurisdiction may, if satisfied by information on oath that the arrest cannot for any reason be effected without a warrant, issue a warrant for the arrest of the person.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are small drafting Amendments. They simply make a declaration of what the law at present is.
Amendments moved—
Page 15, line 1, leave out ("Where") and insert ("It is hereby declared that where at common law or")
Page 15, line 3, leave out from ("warrant") to the end of the clause and insert ("a warrant for his arrest may be issued").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 28:
Provisions as to evidence. 34 & 35 Vict. c. 112.
28.—(1) The record or extract by which a conviction may be proved under section eighteen of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1871, may in the case of a summary conviction consist of a copy of the minute or memorandum of the conviction entered in the register required to be kept under section twenty-two of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, and purporting to be signed by the clerk of the court, by whom the register is kept.
(2) The provisions of section thirty of the Children Act, 1908 (which enables the evidence of a child of tender years to be received though not given on oath), shall apply to proceedings against persons for offences not mentioned in that section, in like manner as they apply in offences mentioned in that section.
(3) The wife or husband of a person charged with bigamy may be called as a witness either for the prosecution or defence and without the consent of the person charged.
(4) In any proceedings before a court of summary jurisdiction to enforce the payment of a sum of money adjudged by that or any other court of summary jurisdiction to be paid by one person to another person, then

(a) if the person to whom the sum is ordered to be paid was an officer of a court of summary jurisdiction, the production of a certificate purporting to be signed by that officer that the sum has not been paid to him; and

(b) in any other case the production of a statutory declaration to a like effect purporting to be made by the person to whom the sum is ordered to be paid;

shall be evidence of the facts therein stated unless the court requires such officer or other person to be called as a witness.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment standing in my name is purely drafting. It is to omit from subsection (1), after 1879, the word "and."
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 12, leave out ("and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29:
Power of justices to order production of documents.
29. The provisions of section sixteen of the Indictable Offences Act, 1848, section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1848, and section thirty-six of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, enabling a justice to issue a summons to any witness to attend to give evidence before a court of summary jurisdiction, shall be deemed to include the power to summon and require a witness to produce to such court books, plans, papers, documents, articles, goods, and things likely to be material evidence on the hearing of any charge, information, or complaint, and the provisions of those sections relating to the neglect or refusal of a witness, without just excuse, to obey a summons to attend to give evidence and to the issue of a warrant to compel him to do so and of a warrant committing him for failing to do so, shall apply accordingly.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the Amendments standing in my name to this clause is to make it clear that all the provisions of the cited sections apply to the new provision which we have introduced into this Bill for securing the production of documents.
Amendments moved—
Page 16, line 7, leave out ("to obey a summons")
Page 16, line 8, leave out from ("evidence") to end of line 9 and insert ("or to be sworn or to give evidence").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30:
Periodical payments ordered by courts of summary jurisdiction.
30.—(1) Where a court of summary jurisdiction orders money to be paid periodically by one person to another, the court may if it thinks fit order that the payment shall be made through an officer of the court or any other person or officer specified in the order.
(2) Where a court of summary jurisdiction has either before or after the commencement of this Act ordered money to be paid periodically by one person to another, the court which made the order, or any other court of summary jurisdiction for the same petty sessional division, may, if it thinks fit, order that the payment shall be made through an officer of the court or any other person or officer specified in the order.
(3) Any order made either before or after the commencement of this Act by a court of summary jurisdiction for the periodical payment of money may, upon cause being shown upon fresh evidence to the satisfaction of the court, be revoked, revived, or varied by a subsequent order.
(4) Where a court of summary jurisdiction makes an order for the periodical payment of money through an officer of the court or other person or officer specified in the order, the authority having the control of the fund out of which the salary of the clerk of that court is paid may pay to that officer or person out of that fund, in manner provided by rules made by the Secretary of State, a sum not exceeding five pounds per centum on the money actually paid through him in pursuance of the order, as remuneration to him in respect of the work done and expenses incurred by him in respect of the order.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the new subsection which I propose to add to this clause is to make it clear that the jurisdiction under the Affiliation Orders Act, 1914, is not interfered with.
Amendment moved.
Page 16, line 37, after subsection 4, insert as a new subsection:
(5) Nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect the powers and duties of courts of summary jurisdiction under the Affiliation Orders Act, 1914.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clause 32:
Recovery of arrears on bastardy orders, &c. 42 & 43 Vict. c. 49. 11 & 12 Vict. c. 43.
32.—(1) It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding anything in section fifty-four of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, the provisions of section eleven of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1848 (which relate to the time within which summary proceedings are to be taken), do not
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apply to proceedings for enforcing the payment of sums adjudged to be paid by an order in any matter of bastardy or by an order enforceable as an order of affiliation.
(2) Proceedings for the enforcement of an order in any matter of bastardy or of an order enforceable as an order of affiliation may be taken at any time after the expiration of fourteen clear days from the making of the order, and accordingly in section four of the Bastardy Laws Amendment Act, 1872, "after the expiration of fourteen clear clays" shall be substituted for "after the expiration of one calendar month."
(3) Where in any proceedings for the enforcement of an order in any matter of bastardy or of an order enforceable as an order of affiliation the court orders the defendant to be committed to prison then, unless the court otherwise directs, no arrears shall accrue under the order during the time that the defendant is in prison.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment to subsection (3) standing in my name is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, lines 21 and 22, leave out ("orders the defendant to be committed") and insert ("commits the defendant").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
Appointment and remuneration of and accounting by justices' clerks.
34.—(1) Clerks to justices shall continue to be appointed as heretofore, but no appointment made after the commencement of this Act shall be valid unless and until it is confirmed by the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of State shall, before confirming any such appointment, take into consideration any representations that may be made to him, in the case of the appointment of a clerk to borough justices by the council of the borough, and in the case of the appointment of a cleric to county justices by the standing joint committee of the county.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other general or local Act to the contrary, the salaries of clerks to justices shall be fixed and may from time to time be varied—

(a) in the case of a clerk to borough justices, by the justices of the borough; and

(b) in the ease of a clerk to county justices, by the standing joint committee of the county:

Provided that—

(i) in the case of the salary of a cleric to borough justices, the council of the borough or the clerk; and

(ii) in the case of the salary of a clerk to county justices, the county justices for whom the clerk acts or the clerk,

may appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the justices or standing joint com-

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mittee, as the case may be, and the amount of the salary shall thereupon be determined by the Secretary of State.
(3) If any county justices make representations to the standing joint committee of the county with a view to the variation of the salary of their clerk, the standing joint committee shall at a meeting of which special notice has been given take into consideration the question of varying the salary.
(4) The authority by whom the salary of a clerk is fixed may allow him such special remuneration in addition to his salary as they may, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, determine, in respect of any duties which were not taken into account in fixing his salary.
(5) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of this section shall apply to clerks at metropolitan Mice courts nor to the clerks to the justices of the city of London nor to the clerk to any stipendiary magistrate other than a stipendiary magistrate appointed under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1832.
(6) If any clerk to justices fails without sufficient reason to account for or pay over any sum within one month from the time when he was required to account for or pay over the sum under section six of the Justices' Clerks Act, 1877, he shall be deemed to have wilfully omitted to account for or pay over that sum within the meaning of that section.
LORD PARMOOR: I desire to move to omit the proviso to subsection (2)—
Provided that—

(i) in the case of the salary of a clerk to borough justices, the council of the borough or the clerk; and

(ii) in the case of the salary of a clerk to county justices, the county justices for whom the clerk acts or the clerk

may appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the justices or standing joint committee, as the case may be, and the amount of the salary shall thereupon be determined by the Secretary of State.
This is an entirely new proposal. The result of it would be that the salaries of clerks to county justices and of clerks to borough justices would no longer be fixed as at present by the local authority, but would be fixed in future by the Home Secretary. That is an interference with our local system of administration which I think is entirely in the wrong direction. There is no reason whatever why the salaries of these clerks should not be fixed as they are at the present time by the Standing Joint Committee in the case of the clerks to county justices and by the borough justices in the case of the other clerks. I do not suggest that the Home Secretary would act unjustly in a matter of this kind but it is a question of principle, and I shall ask your Lordships to say that there is no reason whatever
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for taking this power out of the hands of the local administrators who are responsible for these officers. The justices have full knowledge of the local circumstances, and I have never heard of any complaint that the salaries have been fixed on an improper scale. The form in which the proviso stands is that there may be an appeal to the Secretary of State, but that means that in practically every case the Secretary of State would have the fixing of the salaries. Whenever a justices' clerk was not content with the salary which he was receiving he would, as of right, be able to go to the Secretary of State and over-rule the opinion of the local justices, and possible an enhanced salary might be given to which, in their opinion, the officer was not entitled. At the present time if the Standing Joint Committee or the borough justices think that a variation ought to be made in the sense of increasing the salary, they have power to apply to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. That is done in the ordinary course of administration, and the salary may be varied as they desire; but at the present moment the clerk cannot make the application himself. I sincerely hope that in a Bill which deals with criminal justice administration we shall not introduce a novel interference with local administration which is quite alien to the general purpose of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 7, leave out from ("provided that") down to ("Secretary of State") in line 16.—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble and learned friend has expressed some surprise as to how this provision came in the Bill, but it simply carries out the recommendation of the conference which took place. A Departmental Committee was appointed by the Home Office which was virtually a conference, because it consisted of some of the most experienced people in these matters. In their third recommendation the conference expressed their strong opinion that the Secretary of State should remain the ultimate authority for fixing fees and salaries, and they recommended that, whilst the justices should fix and vary the salary, the right of appeal should exist. As the noble and learned Lord knows, there have been very hard cases where the salaries were not up to the level in other counties. As this was the

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unanimous and strong recommendation of a body of great experience and as the proposal is backed with a very large weight of authority, I hope the noble and learned Lord will not press his Amendment.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not like to press the Amendment against the wish of the noble and learned Viscount, but in spite of what he has said I regard this as an extremely important matter of principle. I do not believe for a moment that if the general opinion of the local administrators was ascertained they would desire that this power of fixing the rate at which the justices' clerks should be paid should be taken away from the local authorities and vested in the Home Office. The change proposed is a very big one, and I object to its being made in a Bill which has to do with criminal justice administration. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will reconsider the matter between now and the Report stage, in which case I will withdraw the Amendment now; but I give him notice that on Report I shall be compelled to press it to a Division.
LORD MONK BRETTON: I should like to say that this matter did come before the County Councils Association, but they had not time to consider it, having regard to other important matters connected with the Finance Bill. But though the Association did not consider it, it was stated by individuals that there was a feeling among Standing Joint Committees against their powers being interfered with in the way proposed in this clause.
LORD BARNARD: As a member of a Standing Joint Committee I have had a good deal of experience in connection with this question of the salaries of justices' clerks, and I sincerely hope that the advice of Lord Parmoor will be followed, and that the noble and learned Viscount will give us an assurance that the matter will be very carefully considered before this proposal is passed into law.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As the noble and learned Lord proposes to postpone his Amendment until Report, I will consider the point again in the meantime. But I might mention that in the other House, where representatives of the local authorities were present, this point was very much discussed and they were unanimous in supporting the recommendation of the conference.
LORD PARMOOR: I have had an opportunity of discussing the matter with some members of the other House who do not take that view. There is this further point to be remembered as regards the other House, that whenever there is a question of giving increased powers to a body such as justices' clerks there is a disposition amongst many Members to go with the justices' clerks rather than take the broad view which I hope your Lordships will take on this matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment in subsection (3) which stands in my name is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 17, leave out ("any county justices") and insert ("the justices for any petty sessional division").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the words which I now move to add at the end of subsection (6) is to prevent common informer actions. There are a considerable number of people who make a living by looking up technical breaches and acting as common informers. It may be desirable to keep that in some cases, but it is not desirable in cases like this. Therefore I propose to insert words to make it impossible to bring that kind of action except at the instance of the person or authority to whom the account or payment is required to be made.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 37, after ("section") insert ("but no person shall sue for a sum recoverable under that section as amended by this section, except the person or authority to whom the account or payment is required to be made").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MONK BRETTON: The new subsection which I propose to add to this clause is a small administrative Amendment for the convenience of county and county borough councils. For want of time it has not been approved by a resolution of the County Councils Association, but it was left for me to move it as I thought fit. The object of the Amendment is to enable local authorities to audit

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fines and fees which they receive from the clerk. The clause provides that they shall receive these fines and fees promptly, and the additional subsection which I move is to enable county and county borough councils to audit these fines and fees.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 37, after subsection (6) insert the following new subsection:
(7) As soon as nosy be after the close of each quarter or any less interval fixed by the local authority for which the account is made up, a clerk to justices shall submit to the local authority for examination the account of fines, fees and other sums received by him, together with vouchers and authorities for receipts and payments, and shall produce for inspection all books and documents that may be required for such examination.
If any clerk wilfully omits or refuses to submit such account or vouchers or authorities Or refuses to produce such boas or other documents, he shall forfeit for every such omission or refusal twenty pounds to be recovered by action of debt by any person who may sue for the same.—(Lord Honk Brellon.)
THE LORD CHANGELLOR:I am well aware of the point which the noble Lord raises, but it is, we think, sufficiently covered. We are particularly anxious not to carry the law too far, and my advisers think that it would be dangerous to accept the noble Lord's subsection. They mention that the point is met by two Statutes, In the Justices Clerks Act, 1877, Section 5, there is a provision for the clerk paying over all moneys to the county or borough treasurer in such manner as may be from time to time directed; and the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1851, Section 11, pro-vides for regulations by the local authority prescribing time manner in which the clerk shall account for fees, etc. We feel that the case is sufficiently covered by those provisions, and we are averse to going further.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 35 and 36 agreed to.
Clause 37:
Right of appeal from decision of cocoa of summary jurisdiction.
37.—(1) Any person aggrieved by any conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of any offence who did not plead guilty or admit the truth of the information may appeal from the conviction in manner provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts to a court of quarter sessions.
(2) An appeal shall lie from any order made by a court of summary jurisdiction under the enactments relating to bastardy, or front any refusal by a court of summary jurisdiction to make such an order, or from the revocation or revival by a court of summary jurisdiction of such an order; and notice of any such appeal may be given at any time within one month from the date on which the decision appealed from was given.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments standing in my name to this clause are purely drafting, their object being to correct difficulties got into by the Amendments made in the other House.
Amendments moved—
Page 19, line 24, after ("lie") insert ("to a court of quarter sessions in manner provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts")
Page 19, line 27, leave out ("or revival") and insert ("revival or variation")
Page 19, line 28, leave out from ("order")to the end of the clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 38 agreed to.
Clause 39:
Convictions on indictments.
39.—(1) Where a prisoner is arraigned on an indictment for any offence, and can lawfully be convicted on such indictment of some other offence not charged in such indictment, he may plead not guilty of the offence charged in the indictment, but guilty of such other offence.
(2) If on the trial of any indictment for larceny it is proved that the defendant took any chattel, money, or valuable security in question in any such manner as would amount in law to obtaining it by false pretences with intent to defraud, the jury may acquit the defendant of larceny and find him guilty of obtaining the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, and thereupon he shall be liable to be punished accordingly.
LORD PARMOOR: I move to omit subsection (2). The effect of this subsection, if it remains in its present form, is to put a hardship in the way of a prisoner, and I am sure your Lordships are desirous, apart, from any question of convenience, that nothing should be introduced into this Bill which should in any way imperil the fair hearing which I believe prisoners now have under our criminal system. This subsection provides that if on the trial of any indictment for larceny it is proved that the defendant took any chattel, money, or valuable security in question in any such manner as would amount in law to obtain-

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ing it by false pretences with intent to defraud, the jury may acquit the defendant of larceny and find him guilty of obtaining the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, and thereupon he shall be liable to be punished accordingly. I should be the last person to raise any objection to an amendment of our criminal law which placed larceny and the obtaining of money by false pretences as one and the same crime under a proper definition, but it is a very different matter to say that on an indictment for one offence a prisoner may be found guilty of a charge which could only be brought against him under the other head. If this subsection is omitted matters will stand as they arc at present. I will assume the position of a prisoner who has come into the dock knowing that a charge of larceny is made against him and who is prepared to meet that charge and to show that it is in itself untrue. If this subsection is allowed to remain in the Bill, although the prisoner could prove that he had not been guilty of larceny he could be convicted for a different offence—namely, for obtaining money under false pretences; and, as the noble and learned Viscount knows, there is no more technical part of our criminal law than that which deals with the obtaining of money by false pretences. I object in principle to this subsection. I object to a prisoner being charged with one offence and convicted of a different offence. He ought to know exactly what it is he is charged with in order that he may direct his defence to that particular matter, and he should be found "not guilty" if he is not guilty of that offence. If he is found "guilty" he should be found guilty on the charge made against him in the indictment under which he is being tried. On these grounds I hope that subsection (2) will be omitted.
Amendment moved—
Leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that my noble and learned friend will not press this Amendment. The point is a very technical one. In the first place, the principle has been applied in a great many other cases; and, in the second place, if subsection (2) is struck out there will be a very curious anomaly. Under the Larceny Act, if a person is indicted for obtaining a chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences and it is found that he obtained the chattel, money, or
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valuable security in such a way as to amount to larceny, there is express provision that he can still be found guilty of false pretences although the facts prove what would amount to larceny. But, on the other hand, if he is indicted for larceny, which is the bigger thing, and it is proved that he obtained the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, at the present time he cannot be convicted of larceny or false pretences and he gets off scot free. That is a scandal in the law. If there were any danger of doing harm I would pay the greatest attention to my noble and learned friend's arguments, but my advisers, who are gentlemen of great experience, say that justice is every now and then defeated for the want of this provision, and they are anxious to put the law on a proper basis.
LORD PARMOOR: it is quite true that on a charge of larceny a prisoner cannot be found guilty of false pretences. The reason for that is that the crime of false pretences is a very technical and difficult one in our law, and a prisoner who is being charged with it ought to have full notice in order that he might direct his defence to the technical matters involved in the charge. I think a prisoner ought to be discharged if he is not found guilty of the charge made against him in the indictment. He might be again charged with having obtained money by false pretences, but then he would know the nature of the charge. This subsection would create a change in the law which, in my opinion, would be highly detrimental to an undefended prisoner, of whom I am particularly thinking. I will withdraw the Amendment for the present, but I wish to make it quite clear that it is my intention, unless the Government propose other words, to take a Division upon it on the Report stage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have the greatest respect for my noble and learned friend's knowledge and great experience of these matters, but I cannot help thinking that in this matter he is pressing a technical principle too far. But I should be glad if he would raise the matter again upon Report, and in the meantime I can take advice about it. And possibly the noble and learned Lord will confer with some of those who are communicating with me upon the subject, and see whether he cannot conic to an agreement. I do not want to have any difference of opinion with the

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noble and learned Lord, but I fear that if I agree to the Amendment some very bad ruffians will escape.
LORD PARMOOR: On the understanding that I may have to divide your Lordships' House upon the Amendment on Report, I withdraw my Amendment now.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clause 40:
Rules 42 & 43 Vict. c. 49.
40.—(1) The power of the Lord Chancellor to make rules under section twenty-nine of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, shall extend to the making of rules for regulating the manner in which convictions and orders of courts of summary jurisdiction are to be drawn up, and in such cases as may be provided for by the rules, the transmission of such convictions and orders and any other documents therewith to the clerk of the peace and the filing of them by him, and for regulating the procedure in legal proceedings which under any Act, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act other than the Summary Jurisdiction Acts, are to be taken before any police or stipendiary magistrate or other court of summary jurisdiction.
(2) His Majesty may, by Order in Council, make rules extending the operation of the Summary Jurisdiction (Process) Act, 1881, as amended by any subsequent, enactment (which relates to the service and execution in Scotland of process issued by courts of summary jurisdiction in England, and in England of process issued by courts of summary jurisdiction and sheriff courts in Scotland, and to the jurisdiction of courts in England and Scotland respectively in bastardy proceedings), so as to make the provisions of that Act, subject to the necessary adaptations, applicable as between any one part of the British Islands and any other part of the British Islands in like manner as it applies as between England and Scotland.
This subsection slain extend to the Isle of Man.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment in subsection (1) is not an alteration of substance; it is really drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 19, after ("him") insert. ("and for annulling, altering, or adding to the forms contained in the schedule to the Indictable Offences Act, 1848").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is necessary for the purpose of enabling rules to be made for regulating procedure.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 20, after ("procedure") insert ("of courts of summary jurisdiction under this Act, and the procedure") and after ("Act") insert ("whether general or local and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These words were in the Amendment as it was moved in the other House by the Home Secretary, but were omitted in deference to doubts which were raised as to the propriety of legislating for the Channel Islands. I think there can be no doubt as to the propriety of so legislating. Whenever the matter is one which concerns the Empire generally it is customary to legislate in such cases, and it is all to the good that it should be done.
Amendment moved.—
Page 20, line 37, after ("Man") insert ("and the Channel Islands, and the Royal Courts of the Channel Islands shall register the same accordingly").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 41:
Definitions.
41.—For the purposes of this Act—
(1) The expression "sentenced to imprisonment" shall include cases where imprisonment is imposed by a court on any person either with or without the option of a fine, or in respect of the nonpayment of any suns of money, or for failing to do or abstaining from doing any act or thing required to be done or left undone, and the expression" sentence of imprisonment" shall be construed accordingly:
(2) The expressions "fine," "stun adjudged to be paid by a conviction," and "sum adjudged to be paid by an order," have the same meanings as in the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move, after the words "For the purposes of this Act," at the beginning of the clause, to insert "unless the context otherwise requires." This is purely drafting.
Amendment inoved—
Page 20, line 38, after ("Act") insert ("unless the context otherwise requires").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Application to Ireland.
43.—(1) The provisions of sections one to four inclusive, sections seven to twelve inclusive, sections sixteen to twenty-one inclusive, section twenty-four, subsection (2) of section twenty-five, sections twenty-six and twenty-seven, subsections (2), (3), and (4) of section twenty-eight, sections thirty-five, thirty-seven, and thirty-nine, and subsection (1) of section forty-one of this Act shall apply to Ireland, subject to the following modifications, namely:—

(a) references to the Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for references to the Secretary of State, and references to the General Prisons Board for Ireland shall he substituted for references to the Prison Commissioners:

(b) a reference to the Prisons (Ireland) Acts, 1826 to 1907, shall be substituted for any reference to the Prison Acts, 1865 to 1902, a reference to sections thirty-six, thirty-seven, thirty-eight, and thirty-nine of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for the reference to sections twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-six, and twenty-seven of the Prison Act, 1877, and a reference to section one of the Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899, shall be substituted for the reference to section nine of the Prison Act, 1898:

(c) the reference to the Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, and the provision of section two of this Act relative to payment by instalments, shall not apply.

(2) A court of summary jurisdiction, in fixing the amount of any fine to be imposed on an offender, shall take into consideration, amongst other things, the means of the offender so far as they appear or are known to the court.
(3) Proceedings for the recovery in a summary manner of a penalty for an offence under the Births and Deaths Registration Act (Ireland), 1880, may be commenced at any time within three years after the commission of the offence.
(4) Where upon summary conviction an offender is adjudged to pay a penalty exceeding five pounds, the offender in ease of non-payment thereof may without any warrant of distress be committed to prison for any term not exceeding the period for which he might be committed to prison in default of distress: Provided that where time is not allowed for the payment of the penalty a warrant of commitment shall not be issued in the first instance unless it appears to the court that the offender has no goods or insufficient goods to satisfy the penalty, or that the levy of distress would be more injurious to him or his family than imprisonment.
(5) Upon any information or complaint laid or made before a divisional justice of the police district of Dublin metropolis of an offence punishable on summary conviction, if the person charged resides within the limits of that district, the justice shall notwithstanding that the offence has been or is alleged to have been committed outside those limits, have all the like powers jurisdiction, and authority as he has upon an information or complaint laid or made of a similar offence committed or alleged to have been committed within those limits.
(6) So much of section twenty-two of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, as relates to the liability of persons aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring the commission of offences punishable on summary conviction shall, as amended by any subsequent enactment, extend to the police district of Dublin metropolis; and every person who aids, abets, counsels, or procures the commission of any such offence may be proceeded against and convicted in that district in any case where the principal offender may be convicted in that district, or where the offence of aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring was committed in that district.
(7) Section three (which relates to boards of visitors for convict prisons), section six (which relates to divisions of prisoners), section eleven (which relates to orders for production of prisoners), and, so far as respects sentences of imprisonment passed after the commencement of this Act, section twelve (which relates to calculation of term of sentence) of the Prison Act, 1898, shall, as amended by this Act, extend to Ireland subject to the following modifications, namely:—

(a) references to the Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for references to the Secretary of State;

(b) references to rules made by the General Prisons Board for Ireland with the approval of the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council under the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for any references to prison rules or special prison rules;

(c) a reference to section forty-nine of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for the reference to sections forty and forty-one of the Prison Act, 1877, and references to provisions of the Prison Act, 1865, or the Criminal Procedure Act, 1853, shall not apply.

(8) For removing doubts it is declared that in section twenty-four of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, and section three of the Prisons (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1884 (which relate to visiting committees of prisons), the expressions "grand jury" and "grand juries" respectively, include, in the case of the county of Dublin, a grand jury of that county impanelled at a commission of oyer and terminer and general gaol delivery.
(9) The Lord Chancellor may make rules for the purposes of this Act regulating the procedure to be followed, and prescribing the forms to be used in summary proceedings and adapting to the requirements of this Act any forms relating to summary proceedings prescribed by or in pursuance of any other Act, and all rules so made shall be laid as soon as may be before both Houses of Parliament.
(10) Where a person convicted of an offence by a court of summary jurisdiction is committed to prison by the court under section ten of this Act without sentence he may appeal under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts against the conviction, and the provisions of those Acts with respect to appeals shall apply accordingly in like manner as if the conviction were an order for a term of imprisonment exceeding one month and the committal were a committal in execution of such order.

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Provided that the time for serving notice of appeal shall run from the date of the committal, told the appellate court, if it confirms the conviction, shall have power to pass the like sentence and to deal with the ease in the like manner in all respects as if the offender had been brought before it for sentence in pursuance of the said section.
Upon any information, summons, or complaint laid or made before a court of summary jurisdiction in Ireland wherein the defendant is called upon to show cause why such defendant should not be bound over to keep the peace or be of good behaviour, the defendant shall be entitled to call witnesses and tender evidence at the hearing of the information, summons, or complaint.
(11) Save as provided in this section, the foregoing provisions of this Act shall not extend to Ireland.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to delete "(3)" from subsection (1) of Clause 43. There, is a difference between the law of Ireland and the law of this country. At present subsection (3) of Clause 28 enables the wife or the husband of a person charged with bigamy to be called as a witness for the prosecution or defence without the consent of the person charged. The application of this to Ireland is objected to owing to an understanding which was come to on the passing of the Criminal Law Amendment Act. Therefore as the provision in its present form would give rise to controversy we propose to exclude its application to Ireland.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 17, leave out ("(3)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move the next Amendment upon the same ground.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 18, leave out ("thirty-seven") and insert ("thirty-six").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the next Amendment is to make the matter quite clear.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 38, leave out ("the reference to") and insert ("references to the Court of Criminal Appeal, the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I move to insert the words which stand in my name. They relate to subsection (2) of Clause 20,
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which removes the eight days' limitation. There is no such limitation in Ireland except in the Dublin police district. The object of the Amendment is to put this right.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 40, after ("apply") insert: ("and
"(d)subsection (2) of section twenty of this Act shall apply as respects the police district of Dublin metropolis only, and a reference to section twenty-one of the Indictable offences (Ireland) Act, 1849, shall be substituted for the reference therein to section twenty-one of the indictable Offences Act, 1848").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This, again, is an Amendment of the same kind, to put the Bill as it applies to Ireland on the footing of the existing Irish legislation.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 19, after subsection (4) insert:
(5) So much of section three of the Fines Act (Ireland), 1851, as requires that a warrant for the execution of an Omer of a divisional justice of the police district of Dublin metropolis for the imposition or levy of a penal sum shall be issued within one week from the making of the order shall cease to have effect.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next is a drafting Amendment for the same purpose.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 34, after subsection (9) insert:
(10) An appeal under section twenty-seven of the Dublin Police Act, 1837, section twenty-three of the Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Act, 1851, or section twenty-four of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, against a conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of an offence shall lie whatever may be the amount of the fine or the term of the imprisonment imposed.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 40, leave out from ("accordingly") to ("upon") in page 27, line 7.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 44:
Short title, commencement, and repeal.
44.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1914, and shall come into operation on the first day of January nineteen hundred and fifteen.
(2) The enactments mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The first of the Amendments refers back to the Amendment which we have already made in Clause 10. The second and third Amendments bring forward the date of the commencement of the rest of the Bill from the 1st of January, 1915, to the 1st of December 1914.
Amendments moved—
Page 27, line 17, after ("shall") insert ("save as otherwise expressly provided")
Page 27, line 18, leave out ("January") and inserted ("December" and leave out ("fifteen") and insert ("fourteen").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule:
LORD PARMOOR: The noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn, has asked me to move the Amendment standing in his name. I do not think it necessary to say anything about it. The question is whether it ought to be included in order that proper charges can be made under the First Schedule.
Amendment moved—
Part I, page 28, after line 22 insert:
Summary Adjudications:
For the performance of all the several duties in respect of any charge for an offence (other than an indictable offence) punishable on summary conviction 4s. 0d.
—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think this is a very good Amendment, and I gladly accept it. The alteration which I made in the wording of Clause 6 enables us to make rules which will modify the form sufficiently to cover this Amendment and make it work.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 18, after the first ("any") insert ("fee for").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second and Third Schedules agreed to.
Fourth Schedule:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is merely to repeal an Act which is dead.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 31, third column, leave out ("Section one") and insert ("The Whole Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendments are merely consequential on the application of Clause 36 to Ireland.
Amendments moved—

Page 34, line 12, at end insert:

1 & 2 Will. 4, c. 44.

The Tumultuous Risings (Ireland) Act, 1831

In sections two, three, four, five and six, the words "twice or thrice."

line 14,at end insert:

5 & 6 Vict. c. 28.

The Capital Punishment (Ireland) Act, 1842.

In section eight, the words "twice or thrice."

—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment which I now move is purely drafting. The word "same," as my noble and learned friends know, is a very ambiguous term.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 45, leave out ("the same") and insert ("those words and sections").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is purely consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 33, third column, after ("six") insert ("and section nine").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended.

OSBORNE ESTATE BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, this is a very small measure, the object of which is not in any way to alter the purposes to which Osborne House is now put but to extend them. There is room at Osborne for a certain number of beds, but there are not sufficient officers in the Navy and Army to occupy those beds fully. One consequence of that is that conveniences which have been established for invalids are not used, and the place is run at greater expense than would be the case if we had more patients there. What we propose by this Bill is to take power to treat members of the Civil Service and the Consular and Diplomatic services in the home in addition to others. Your Lordships will see that we take care by adding to those who will superintend the home representatives of the Army and Navy to make sure that the interests of officers in the Services will not be neglected. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN:My Lords, I do not rise to offer any opposition to this Bill, but merely to point out for the noble Earl's consideration, what appears to me to be a defect in it. This portion of Osborne House has, as he said, been set apart for officers of the Army and Navy and, I think, their relatives, and it appears that there are not sufficient to fill the home. It is now proposed to add other classes. I do not think there is any objection to that. It is quite true that up to the present time there have not been enough applicants to fill the house, but it is possible that hereafter there might be sufficient applicants from the two Services without any of the other classes. I would put it to the noble Earl whether it is not desirable to give priority to applications from those classes supposing that there were such applications.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The noble Earl stated, I think, the Civil Service and the Consular and Diplomatic services. Surely he does not mean to exclude the Colonial service, who, perhaps more than any other service after the Navy and the Army, require convalescent treatment?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: The noble Earl is quite right. We have no intention of excluding the Colonial service; perhaps I should have included them in the list I gave to the House. With regard to the remarks of Lord Camperdown, I have drafted an Amendment in that connection; and if he will give me an opportunity of showing it to him privately we may agree upon it before the House goes into Committee on the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2—, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House Tomorrow.

EXPORTATION OF HORSES BILL. TRADE MARKS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bills reported without amendment, and to be read 3ª To-morrow.

PATENTS AND DESIGNS BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, this is a very small Bill. It became necessary to amend Section 91 of the original Act owing to a Convention which was held at Washington in 1911, whereby certain proposals were agreed to on behalf of this country. One of them it was found impossible to incorporate except by an Act of Parliament. The object of this Bill is simply to provide that the rights conferred by Section 91 of the Patents and Designs Act, 1907, on a person who has applied for protection for any invention, design, or trade mark in a foreign State shall extend to his legal representatives and assignees, and accordingly subsection (1) of that section is to have effect as if after the words "any person who has applied for protection for any invention, design, or trade mark in that State" there were inserted the words "or his legal representative or assignee."
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Second Report, read.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, this Report has been printed and is now before the House. I do not propose, unless your Lordships desire me to do so, to go into it at any length, beyond saying that personally I entirely associate myself with what is said in the Report with regard to these two valuable officers. I beg to move that the Report be agreed to.
Moved, That the Report be agreed to.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE EUROPEAN CRISIS.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, within the last two hours information of the most momentous character relating to the present European situation has been given to the House of Commons. I desire to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will impart that information to your Lordships' House. I am sure that we should desire to have it. I need not add that if there is any subsequent information, we should like to have that also.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, no information has come since the telegrams which were read by the Prime Minister in another place this afternoon. I shall have much pleasure in meeting the wishes of the noble Marquess by reading to your Lordships the statement of the Prime Minister. It was as follows:—
In conformity with the statement of policy made here by my right hon. friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday, a telegram was early this morning sent by him to our Ambassador in Berlin. It was to this effect—
"The King of the Belgians has made an appeal to His Majesty the King for diplomatic intervention on behalf of Belgium. His Majesty's Government are also informed that the German Government has delivered to the Belgian Government a Note proposing friendly neutrality entailing free passage through Belgian territory and promising to maintain the independence and integrity of the Kingdom and its possessions, at the conclusion of peace, threatening in case of refusal
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to treat Belgium as an enemy. An answer was requested within twelve hours. We also understand that Belgium has categorically refused this as a flagrant violation of the law of nations. His Majesty's Government are bound to protest against this violation of a Treaty to which Germany is a party in common with themselves, and must request an assurance that the demand made upon Belgium may not be proceeded with, and that her neutrality will ho respected by Germany. You should ask for an immediate reply."
We received this morning from our Minister at Brussels the following telegram—
"German Minister has this morning addressed Note to the Belgian Minister for Foreign Affairs stating that as Belgian Government have declined the well-intended proposals submitted to them by the Imperial Government, the latter will, deeply to their regret, be compelled to carry out, if necessary by force of arms, the measures considered indispensable in view of the French menaces."
Simultaneously—almost immediately afterwards—we received front the Belgian Legation here in London the following telegram —
"General staff announces that territory has been violated at Gemmenich (near Aix-la-Chappelle)."
Subsequent information tended to show that the German force has penetrated still further into Belgian territory. We also received this morning from the German Ambassador here the telegram sent to him by the German Foreign Secretary, and communicated by the Ambassador to us. It is in these terms—
"Please dispel any mistrust that may subsist on the part of the British Government with regard to our intentions by repeating most positively formal assurance that, even in the case of armed conflict with Belgium, Germany will, under no pretence whatever, annex Belgian territory. Sincerity of this declaration is borne out by fact that we solemnly pledged our word to Holland strictly to respect her neutrality. It is obvious that we could not profitably annex Belgic territory without making, at the same time, territorial acquisitions at expense of Holland. Please impress upon Sir E. Grey that German Army could not be exposed to French attack across Belgium, which was planned according to absolutely unimpeachable information. Germany had consequently to disregard Belgic neutrality, it being for her a question of life or death to prevent French advance."
I have to add this on behalf of His Majesty's Government: We cannot regard this as in any sense a satisfactory communication. We have, in reply to it, repeated the request we made last week to the German Government, that they should give us the same assurance in regard to Belgian neutrality as was given to us and to Belgium by France last week. We have asked that a reply to that request, and a satisfactory answer to the telegram of this morning—which I have read to the House—should be given before midnight.
House adjourned at ten minutes past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.