Sitting of 17 February 1913

SAMUEL ROB1NSON'S TRUST CHARITY BILL.
BEVERLEY CHARITIES BILL.
WHITBY CHARITIES BILL.
HABERDASHERS' COMPANY LOAN FUND BEARING INTEREST CHARITY BILL.
Referred to the Examiners.

TEMPERANCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Commons Amendment to one of the Lords Amendments and the Commons Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments, read.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, I move that this House do now consider the Commons Amendment to one of the Lords Amendments and the Commons reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments, and in doing so I believe it is in accordance with precedent that I should make a short statement to your Lordships' House with regard to the general scope of these Amendments. I am afraid that I have very little to add to what I have already said on previous occasions without any effect upon your Lordships in regard to these questions. Your Lordships will no doubt remember that in the discussion of this Bill on previous occasions Amendments on three points of special importance were inserted. The first of them dealt with the time limit, the second with a system of disinterested management, and the third with a scheme of compulsory insurance, and though there were other Amendments introduced they were not of the same importance as those three.
His Majesty's Government were quite unable to agree to the time limit which was inserted by your Lordships; and although they had not the same objection on principle to any scheme of disinterested management, they were unable to agree to this particular scheme now in the Bill on the ground that in their opinion it was neither practical nor workable. The scheme of compulsory insurance is very largely dependent upon the Amendment which deals with the time limit, because, of course, your Lordships will realise that compulsory insurance is of very little value if the time limit is a short one; there is no time for the insurance to become of a sufficient amount to be worth having
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if the time limit is only a short one. To some extent, therefore, it is not inaccurate to say that that Amendment is dependent upon the one of the time limit. But taken together all the Amendments which were inserted by your Lordships' House were, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, equivalent to a rejection of the principle of the Bill, and, as I have said on previous occasions, we were unable to look upon the future of the Bill as likely to effect much for the temperance of Scotland.
I have therefore very little to say on this occasion except, perhaps, to throw out two suggestions. First, I would express the hope that when this Bill is considered again in another session of Parliament the Amendments which will be suggested by your Lordships' House will be so different in character that they may prove more acceptable than those to which I have already referred. The other suggestion—it is no more, indeed, than a suggestion of a somewhat vague character, but which I think is at any rate worthy of the consideration of all those who are interested in temperance—is this. Your Lordships quite realise that the disinterested management scheme which has been introduced into this Bill deals only with disinterested management in Scotland. I think it is quite worthy of consideration whether the noble Earl, Lord Grey, and those who are interested in disinterested management might not consider the question—I put it no higher than that—of introducing a Bill next session dealing with disinterested management, not only in Scotland, but also in England. If a suitable scheme could be devised, it would certainly assist disinterested management far more than anything in this Bill, which is purely local in its character and applies only to Scotland. Whether a Bill dealing with disinterested management in England and Scotland might not go further to advance the cause is worthy of consideration. And if that is done, I am sure we should all be able to look upon it at any rate with a favourable eye, and if it was confined to a Bill devoted to that one subject I think it might have a chance of success. Beyond that I do not think there is anything I can usefully say in moving this Motion.
Moved, That the Commons Amendment to one of the Lords Amendments and the Commons Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not want to anticipate the discussion of these Amendments in detail, but I wish to say half-a-dozen words in reply to the statement that has just been made by the noble Earl in charge of this Bill. The situation, put quite shortly, is this. Virtually the whole of our Amendments have come back from the House of Commons with an intimation that they are unacceptable. The only reasons advanced are those to be found in the few perfunctory and question-begging words which your Lordships will find on the Blue Paper which lies on the Table. The noble Earl has amplified those reasons a little, but not very much. He has told us that the Bill in the form in which it left this House will be an unworkable Bill. Well, some of my noble friends on this side of the House took infinite pains to make it workable, and I think they may well complain that they received very little assistance from noble Lords on the other side of the House.
The noble Earl is, I think, quite right in concentrating the attention of the House upon the three cardinal Amendments which we made in the Bill—the question of the time limit, the question of disinterested management, and the question of the insurance scheme. Those three Amendments hang together. The Amendment dealing with disinterested management is really the pivotal Amendment of the three. You could not, in our view, have disinterested management without some form of insurance in order to mitigate the hardship occasioned to those licence-holders who are deprived of their licences, and, as the noble Earl told us himself a moment ago, a time limit of adequate length is essential if the insurance scheme is to be made a workable one. I am not going to take up the time of the House by once more arguing the case in favour of disinterested management. Let me recapitulate, in the barest language, the reasons which have led us to support that proposal. Disinterested management has been tried and tried successfully in other countries. It is greatly desired in Scotland. The noble Earl is well aware of the influential deputation which called upon the Prime Minister some time ago and laid before him a weighty and authoritative statement of the manner in which the question is regarded in Scotland. Disinterested management, again, found much
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support in the Grand Committee of the House of Commons. The noble Earl himself admitted that in principle he and his friends were not opposed to it; and, of course, he is well aware of the fact that some of his colleagues were actually committed to Bills in which the principle of disinterested management was admitted. Again, we lay stress upon the fact that the giving of this option to the electors in Scotland is essentially consonant with the main object of this Bill. The main object of the Bill is to allow the electors to decide as they please, and in our view it is absurd to preclude them from the right of deciding in this particular manner should they wish to do so. It may be borne in mind that so long ago as, I think, the year 1879 a Committee of this House advocated disinterested management; and last, but not least, those of your Lordships who read the account of the discussion of this point in the House of Commons the other day must have been struck by the almost piteous manner in which one Liberal Member after another got up and implored to be emancipated from the thraldom of the Whips and allowed to give a free and independent vote on this point.
As to insurance, in our view common fairness demands it. Nor is it less required ill order to disarm the hostility which this Bill is sure to encounter unless some means of dealing justly with those who are affected by it is contained amongst its provisions. Upon this point those who sit around me are not able to yield. Upon other and minor points we are open to consideration, but upon this point in our view it is impossible for us to surrender. The noble Earl may tell us that the Bill is, in his opinion, an unworkable Bill. I am not for a moment going to argue that as it now stands it is a perfect Bill. Some of my noble friends have put Amendments on the Paper to-day for the express purpose of meeting the criticisms which the measure encountered in another place; but no doubt it is capable of further improvement.
What I want to put to the noble Earl is ans. Is there any urgency, is there any reason why within the few remaining days of this session this Bill should be forced at express pace through both Houses of Parliament? When this session comes to an end we are not going away for six

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months. We are going to resume our Parliamentary labours in a few days or a few hours. Therefore, if there is still need for discussion, why should it not take place? Why should we not resume the consideration of these matters next session, when there will be still time and when I can assure noble Lords opposite we on this side will be ready to co-operate loyally with them in endeavouring to put this Bill into proper shape. I do not know whether in the suggestion which the noble Earl has made he had in his mind some procedure of that kind. He expressed the hope that we might manage better when the Bill came up again. I rather welcome the spirit in which that proposal was made to us. But, my Lords, after all that has happened, after what the supporters of the Government and of the Bill have said in another place, after what noble Lords have said as to the opportunities to which this House is entitled under the Parliament Act, I really cannot bring myself to believe that, you are going to hustle this Bill through both Houses of Parliament and impose it without further discussion, not only upon this House, but upon the people of Scotland.
LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH: My Lords, I ask permission to associate myself for a few moments with the regret expressed by the noble Marquess opposite that the Government did not treat the Amendments inserted by this House with a little more consideration. The opposition which has been raised to the consideration of your Lordships' Amendments is perfectly undiscriminating, and, if I may use the word without offence, I might almost venture to add unintelligent. It is said that there are three questions involved in the Amendments which your Lordships inserted no one of which could be entertained elsewhere—the question of the extention of the time limit, the question of the introduction of disinterested management, and the question of compensation—and it is added that these three questions are inseparably linked together.
One of my objects for rising is to protest against the accuracy of that suggestion. The question of disinterested management is no more necessarily connected with the principle of compensation than is the question of no licence at all as contained in the Bill as brought up from the other House. And if the question of the abolition
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of licences altogether at the end of the statutory period is permissible without compensation, so I venture to say is the question of introducing disinterested management at the end of the same period without compensation also permissible; and I suggest to your Lordships that the question on which ultimately it will probably be found that the two Houses cannot be brought to an agreement is this question of compensation. Therefore it will be necessary in the interval which must elapse before this Bill is considered again that we should consider the point of the connection between disinterested management and compensation.
There is among all temperance reformers an invincible objection to the principle of compensation. They look to the fact that the form of these licences makes them annual only, though no doubt they have been renewed on condition of good behaviour, and the additional fact that sufficiently long notice may be given of any radical change as constituting adequate consideration to the interests of those who are engaged in this trade. Whether that be right or not as a general principle, it cannot be right in respect of no licences and wrong in respect of disinterested management. This is a point I would press on His Majesty's Government. If they support no licence without the question of compensation, they cannot recoil from the introduction of disinterested management without compensation; and I hope that eventually some solution of this matter will be found by the dropping of the question of money compensation.
There is only one other observation I would like to make in continuation of what the noble Marquess said in his concluding sentences. It is obvious that this Bill could not be settled in the remaining days of this session. The House of Commons has adjourned, the officers of State are away, and there would be no opportunity for that consultation and give and take which would be necessary before a settlement of the question could be secured. It must also, I suppose, be agreed by everybody that the supporters of this Bill cannot forego the advantages they have in using the provisions of the Parliament Act. This Bill in some fashion or other may be passed in two years' time, despite your Lordships' objection to some

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of the provisions in the form in which they came up to this House, for it is not to be supposed that the authors of the Bill will forego the advantages they have in the powers of the Parliament Act. But since the House of Commons cannot make any change in the form of the Bill to be submitted to your Lordships' House without forfeiting the privileges they enjoy under the Parliament Act, it follows inevitably that the Bill when it reappears next session will appear before us without any change whatever in the form of it from that in which it was sent up originally to this House, unless it be that the Commons incorporate in it some of your Lordships' Amendments. They can make no other change except that of incorporating some of your Lordships' Amendments. If they determined to send it up without any change at all or with some of your Lordships' Amendments incorporated, they might do it quite early in the session. No time need be occupied in the House of Commons since no change can be effected in that House. Your Lordships would thus have ample time to reconsider the whole question and to put into the Bill again such Amendments as the House thought proper, and in that way early next session the question might be brought under your consideration in ample time for co-operation with the other House with a view to a settlement.
I think if the Parliament Act is to be used against your Lordships you may at least claim that it should also be used in your favour—that is to say, that Bills which are to be submitted again and to be passed without your concurrence in some shape or other should be submitted under circumstances which would allow your Lordships to give ample time to the consideration of them. I hope I may be excused for having spoken at this stage, but I was reluctant to allow it to be supposed for a moment that the view of the Government that the three questions are inseparably linked together could be maintained. If you are to have local option, you must allow it to operate as the people in the locality desire, and you should not restrict it to only one form but should give the people the democratic power of determining in what way this trade should be carried on and whether or not there should be disinterested management. I hope this question will be disentangled from the embarrassment of Party advocacy and considered on its merits by itself.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I desire to associate myself very heartily with the remarks which fell from the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition. I also think there is a great deal in what the noble Lord who has just spoken says, and I sincerely hope that His Majesty's Government will take into serious consideration the suggestions he has made. As far as I am concerned, I desire to express my profound regret that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill did not adopt something like the conciliatory attitude which he has taken to-day at the time when we were discussing the Bill on its merits. I think if he had done so he would have given his own Bill a much better chance, and he would have treated this House with more fairness than in my opinion it has been treated with during these discussions. I can only say that if the machinery of the Parliament Act is to be put into operation to pass this Bill, so to speak, over our heads, I would infinitely sooner that that was done than that I should be in any way responsible for the Bill in anything like the shape in which it came up to this House.
This House does not seem to me to get even reasonably fair play from His Majesty's Government and sonic at any rate of their supporters. If we stand to our opinions, no matter how honestly they are formed, we get nothing but abuse, and if we seem to agree, if we give way at all, we do not even get credit for that; we are only treated with contempt and ridicule, and told that we would like to have opposed the Bill but that we did not dare. I do not think I am going too far when I say that throughout the whole course of the discussions on this Bill, whether on Second Reading, Committee, Report, or Third Reading, we never got the slightest help from the other side, and we never had the slightest indication from the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that he was even willing to consider any one of the three important Amendments which we, to the best of our ability, devised and put into the Bill. I also note the fact that there was not one single speech made by any noble Lord who has a personal knowledge of Scotland in favour of the Bill or any part of it. There is certainly one noble Lord well known in Glasgow, Lord Rowallan, who might have contributed to the discussion and might have answered, if he was able to do so, some of the criticisms

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which we made, but we never had the slightest indication from him—and he is a prominent person in the temperance reform world—that he believed in or cared for the Bill. That was our real difficulty—that we did not get the smallest encouragement, and therefore we had to proceed to the best of our ability without it.
I entirely agree with what the noble Lord who has just sat down has said. This is really a great national problem, and it is a matter of the deepest regret to me that a real endeavour has not been made to settle it upon non-Party lines. Apparently the noble Earl now is not opposed to the principle of disinterested management. Some of his colleagues have spoken in the country and elsewhere in favour of it, and all we are put off with at the present time is that if we pass this Bill in a form in which some of us profoundly distrust it we may or may not in the course of the next two years get a scheme of disinterested management in another Bill. I am afraid that is rather a slender hope, knowing as I do the fanatical opposition with which the idea of disinterested management is received by some of the supporters of His Majesty's Government in another place and by some of them in the country. I venture to say that if we were credulous enough to pass this Bill in the hope of getting that promise fulfilled, abundant reasons would be found in the fulness of time for not giving effect to, I frankly admit, the not very definite promise which is now given to us.
I do not wish to say a word of undue reflection upon those who represent the teetotal party in Scotland. They are profoundly sincere; they are absolutely consistent; I believe them to be animated by the very best possible intentions. But, my Lords, they are a small minority of the real people of Scotland, and they are not representative, I venture to say, even of the main run of opinion in the rank and file of the Party opposite. But they are splendidly organised, and they are in that position that in some constituencies at any rate they are able to impose their will upon the candidate at the time of an election. All we ask for, in suggesting this idea of disinterested management, is that if you profess to give the people of Scotland control of their affairs you should give them a real control. The suggestion of many of the supporters of the Govern-
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ment seems to me to amount to this, that they will only give the people power to do what these supporters of the Government think they ought to be allowed to do, and they do not want to give them real power to decide according to their own views what is best for them.
I have been in receipt of many scores of letters on this question since the Bill has been before your Lordships' House, and I am in the happy position that I have been equally abused by both sides. That is the not uncommon fate of one who is not able to take the extreme view upon either side. I hope your Lordships will not think I am making any complaint. I rather like it. I have a collection of gems which I shall read with satisfaction for a long time to come. But I believe it to be the real wish of moderate people on both sides that this question should be settled, and should be settled on moderate lines. I will not trouble your Lordships with more than one letter, but the other day I received this letter, dated from near Cambuslang, and after stating that he really hoped disinterested management would be reinstated in the Bill the writer goes on to say—
"I am a temperance worker of eighteen years standing and a total abstainer, hut from my study of the temperance question in all its aspects I am convinced that no Bill will succeed in dealing satisfactorily with the evils of the liquor trade unless it concedes to the people the right and the power to eliminate private profit from the sale of intoxicants in those places where the electorate do not propose to veto the traffic."
I believe that this question of management is the real kernel of the whole question which we have to decide. Absolute downright repression has gone as far as it can go in Scotland, and if you attempt to press it further you will do nothing but harm. The cardinal point in this matter is management; and by what we call the disinterested management of public-houses you secure another thing—you continue publicity, which you do not get if you drive drinking into clubs. That is really the weak point of any further repression—that you will make drinking secret and increase rather than diminish it.
I do not go into the larger questions of compensation and time limit just now. But I quite agree that anything in the nature of public payment is impossible, though it is logically the fit and proper thing to do having regard to the fact that

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an interest—I do not say a vested interest—has grown up after a long series of years. I know that it is useless to argue it. All that you can provide is something in the nature of a time limit. What we might use the interval which will probably be before us in doing is this—in solving in some judicial way, after a proper judicial and careful inquiry, what is the real value of licences in Scotland. It is extraordinarily difficult to make sure that you are judging the matter fairly. The information given us by His Majesty's Government—I make no complaint upon it, for I know it is difficult to get information—does not enable us to solve it. The truth, I am certain, is this, that licences vary very much in value. Some of the lower class of houses are not worth more than a year's purchase, but some will come up to six years, six and a-half years, and seven years purchase. If we are going to deal with this matter judicially we ought to have more information than we have at the present time, and we ought to have it in a form which will command respect and assent on both sides, and I do not think that to be impossible. No matter what you may think of the present state of matters or even of the individuals who are engaged in this trade, you cannot get away from the fact that they are entitled to justice. If you take the interest which a licence-holder has in his public-house upon death, you cannot allow it to be taken away by a popular vote without seeing that at any rate a proper measure of justice is given to him for the interest which he undoubtedly holds, and which has grown up not only with your consent but actually for the benefit and in the interests of public policy. I most cordially associate myself with the desire that this matter should be considered on judicial lines; and, if possible, something should be done to take it out of the mere conflict of Party into which it has fallen.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, the noble Lord thinks that he has grave cause to complain of the conduct of His Majesty's Government in dealing with this question, Be is, as we all know, one of the fairest-minded of men, but I think he departed to some extent from his habitual fairness in saying, almost in so many words, that the Government, under the influence of the most fanatical advocates of tem-
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penance policy, had been brought to force upon the people of Scotland not the kind of action which they might prefer but the action which seemed suitable to those who are imposing this policy upon them. That surely is hardly a, fair description, because if we look at the Bill we note that there are three options possible, the first of which is to leave matters precisely as they are, and that fact alone, I think, removes the foundation from the noble Lord's observation.
It is quite true, of course, as my noble friend behind me explained at the earlier stages of the Bill, that in view of the form which this disinterested management proposal took in the Amendments passed by your Lordships' House, it was not found possible, in the opinion of the parties concerned, to include that option in the Bill. The noble Lord thinks that we are entirely wrong not to do that, but I think he would admit that it is an arguable matter whether the method proposed for the introduction of that option is a practicable one, and His Majesty's Government do not consider that in the form proposed the scheme would work. However, it would be useless for me to attempt to argue the various points raised by the noble Lord, but I should like to say one word with reference to what fell from my noble friend behind me, Lord. Courtney.
The request made by Lord Courtney is-rather, I understand, of a different kind. It takes this form. Assuming that owing to the insistence of your Lordships' House this Bill as it stands cannot be proceeded with further in the present session, my noble friend Lord Courtney asks that at any rate it should be passed through the House of Commons in the forthcoming session in circumstances which would enable it to receive full discussion here as it is incapable of amendment there. My noble friend will understand that it is not possible for me at this moment to forecast the progress of business in another place next session, but I can assure him that we will see that his views are carefully considered by those responsible for the arrangement of business there, and they will be considered, I am sure, with a desire to meet, if possible, the wishes of my noble friend and certainly with a desire not to treat this House unfairly in respect to the further consideration of this measure.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, the noble Marquess who leads the House did not touch on the very important point which my noble friend made. I well remember that when we were discussing the Parliament Act Lord Loreburn, whom we are so glad to see again in the House, told us that when once that Act had been passed we should find the Government and the House of Commons much readier to consider Amendments of this House to any Bills than they had been in the past; and in recent debates Lord Emmott adjured us to read the Home Rule Bill a second time because the House of Commons would be so anxious to consider respectfully all Amendments put in by your Lordships' House. This is the first opportunity there has been. Here is a Bill that is not a Party Bill. We have put in Amendments which have been very largely supported by followers of the Government in the House of Commons—very largely supported and pressed upon their acceptance by their own supporters in the House of Commons. Yet the attitude of the Government to Amendments inserted by your Lordships' House is as unconciliatory as before, and the organs of their own Press show the same studied insolence to all the suggestions of your Lordships' House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords in considering the Amendments and the Commons reasons for disagreeing with them, I think it will be convenient to take them in the groups in which they appear on the Paper instead of taking the clauses consecutively. To illustrate what I mean, I would point out that the first set of Amendments with which the Commons have disagreed—namely, in Clause 1 and Clause 15—are grouped together inasmuch as they all relate to the commencement of the Act and the time limit. Therefore in considering the Amendments I suggest that we should take them out of the strict order in which they appear in the Bill, as it would be a source of great confusion if we were to try to consider detached Amendments in no order. I therefore propose, subject to your Lordships' consent, to treat the Amendments in the way in which they are grouped on the Commons Paper.
† Lords Amendments.
Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ("five") and insert ("ten")
Clause 15, page 11, line 16, after ("the") insert ("last preceding")
Clause 15, page 11, lines 17 and 18, leave out ("in the year nineteen hundred and sixteen.")
Clause 15, page 11, line 21, leave out from ("poll") to ("and") in line 22 and insert ("taken in the first year in which a poll can be taken under the provisions of this Act.")
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because they consider that the Amendments would unduly postpone the operation of the main provisions of the Bill.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: With regard to the first Amendment—Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out "five" and insert "ten"—I move that your Lordships do not insist on your Amendment. I do not think it is necessary for me, after what I have said on previous occasions, to say anything to your Lordships in moving this Motion; but I should like to hear from the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who were the Members in another place who generally support His Majesty's Government but who did not support the Government upon this question of the time limit.
Moved, That the House do not insist upon the said Amendment.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If I am not mistaken, Mr. Munro-Ferguson is a well-known member of the other House, and he suggested a concession in regard to the time limit which His Majesty's Government refused to accept.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: That is only one Member. I think the words of Lord Selborne were "a large number" of supporters.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: As to the Motion which the noble Earl has moved, we cannot, of course, agree to give way; and therefore we must reluctantly oppose the Motion.
On Question?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 32; Not-contents, 49.
† NOTE.—The references in each case are to Bill (149) as first printed for the House of Lords.

CONTENTS.

Haldane, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Sandhurst, L. (L. Chamberlain.)

Hollenden, L.

Crewe, M. (L. Privy Seal.)

Inchcape, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Lucas, L.

Chesterfield, E. (L. Steward)

Boston, L.

Reay, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Charnwood, L.

Rotherham, L.

Craven, E. [Teller.]

Colebrooke, L.

St. Davids, L.

Fortescue, E.

Courtney of Penwith, L.

Saye and Sele, L.

Grey, E.

Emmott, L.

Shuttleworth, L.

Loreburn, E.

Granard, L. (E. Granard.)

Stanley of Alderley, L. (L. Sheffield.)

Portsmouth, E,

Haversham, L.

Hemphill, L.

Weardale, L.

Allendale, V.

Herschell, L. [Teller.]

Welby, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Canterbury, L. Abp.

Selborne, E.

Dunmore, L. (E. Dunmore.)

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Estcourt, L.

Argyll, D.

Wicklow, E.

Forester, L.

Devonshire, D. [Teller.]

Falkland, V.

Greville, L.

Halifax, V.

Gwydir, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Hood, V.

Hindlip, L. [Teller.]

Salisbury, M.

Hutchinson, V(E. Donoughmore.)

Hvlton, L.

Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.)

Camperdown, E.

Peel, V.

Cromer, E.

Kilmarnock, L. (E. Erroll.)

Curzon of Kedleston, E.

Ampthill, L.

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Eldon, E.

Ashbourne, L.

Lovat, L.

Graham, E. (D. Montrose.)

Balfour, L.

Oranmore and Browne, L.

Halsbury, E.

Blythswood, L.

Playfair, L.

Harrowby, E.

Bowes, L. (K. Strathmore and Kinghorn.)

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Kilmorey, E.

Rothschild, L.

Lovelace, E.

Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

Savile, L.

Malmesbury, E.

De Mauley, L.

Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.)

Morton, E.

Desart, L. (E. Desart.)

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment insisted on accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The other three Amendments, in Clause 15, are consequential. I move that we insist.
Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendment.
Clause 2, page 1, line 15, after ("(b)") insert ("a disinterested management resolution, or (c)" )
The Commons disagree to this Amendment:
Because they consider that the scheme for giving effect to the disinterested management resolution would prove unworkable in practice.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: This is the Amendment introducing disinterested management. In view of the discussion that has already taken place on this subject, it is, perhaps, desirable that I should say a few words. The name of Lord Rowallan has been mentioned in the course of the debate, and it will perhaps interest Lord Balfour of Burleigh if I state that I have
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this morning received a letter from the United Consultative Committee of the National and Denominational Temperance Organisations of Scotland, of which Lord Rowallan is chairman, and in the course of this letter the Committee say—
"Disinterested management has never been endorsed by the people of Scotland, has never been before the electorate in the same manner as the Temperance (Scotland) Bill, and we do not see any reason why it should ride home to the Statute-book on the back of that measure."
Some comment has also been caused by the fact that there was comparatively little support of His Majesty's Government in another place when the discussion on this matter took place. It is not very orderly to revert to this question, but as this has already been referred to your Lordships will, perhaps, allow me to make two remarks on the subject. One is that there was an attempt made to get the debate finished at an early hour. Consequently a large number of supporters of His Majesty's Government did not take part in the discussion, and, as generally happens, it was found therefore that those who disproved of the proposal took the larger share in the discussion. The other point I wish to make is this. Disinterested management has been before the people

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of this country for a good many years, and it has been before the consideration of Members in another place. It was considered in Grand Committee before this Bill ever became a Government measure, and without any pressure from the Whips or Party pressure of any kind the Grand Committee of the day refused to insert it in the Bill; and later, when this was a Government Bill, again without Party pressure it was decided that disinterested management ought not to be introduced into this particular measure. In those circumstances I venture to hope that your Lordships will not insist on your Amendment. In view, however, of the decision which has recently taken place I shall not put the House to the trouble of a Division, but the Government reserve full right to take any action they may think fit in the future.
Moved, That the House do not insist on the said Amendment.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The noble Earl is wise in the matter of tactics in deciding not to take a Division on this Amendment, because if we might draw an inference from what happened before it would not be so favourable to the Government as the last Division, for on the last occasion when we divided on this matter the Government only took twenty noble Lords into the Lobby, of whom fifteen were paid members of the Government and four of the other five were Peel's of recent creation. But I cannot allow the remarks of the noble Earl to pass without some answer. I have put clown an amended form of the Amendment, which I propose to move; it is deliberately intended to meet the most serious of the criticisms which were made by the Secretary for Scotland in another place. The scheme as passed by this House provided for an absolute monopoly in the district even in the case of hotels and grocers' licences, and in his speech in another place the Secretary for Scotland called this "monopoly with a vengeance," and criticised the proposal to give to an authorised public company not only all the public-houses in the area but also all the hotel., licensed inns, and grocers' licences. The Amendment which I have put down to-day would meet the point made by the Secretary for Scotland, for it would limit the effect of the disinterested management resolution to public-house business and public-house business alone,
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and would leave the justices in their present position as regards hotels, inns, and grocers' licences. No one can deny that this is a substantial alteration of the original proposal. By it the disinterested management proposal is limited purely to public-house bar trade. I am sorry in some respects for this, because it may have a bad effect in rural districts, for there are few rural districts in which there is not an inn or hotel which is fitted for this class of accommodation. All f can say is that this is a genuine effort to meet the criticism made by the Secretary for Scotland. The noble Earl rather indicated that there had been comparatively little support for this proposal from the rank and file of the supporters of His Majesty's Government in another place.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I was referring to the last question we were discussing—namely, the time limit.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: This proposal has been distinctly supported in another place. I have not had time to look up the whole of the quotations, but it is not true to say that it had no support. I take such a typical Member as Sir Thomas Whittaker. He said—
"I also am firmly convinced that the system of disinterested management would enormously hasten and facilitate the adoption of prohibition, which I ultimately look for."
And Mr. Pringle, the Member for Northwest Lanarkshire, a thoroughly representative Scottish Member, said—
"It is idle, and it seems to me to be beside the point, for my right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland to say that the majority of the people of Scotland do not want this option. If this option were introduced into the Bill it would not force disinterested management upon anybody in Scotland. Even if a minority of the localities in Scotland desired the option, I think we are bound as democrats to consider their wishes, and to give the opportunity to that minority of localities to take up the option if they so desired."
It is because I want the real opinion of the real people of Scotland that I am anxious they should have this option, and I am obliged to ask the House to insist on this Amendment in the form in which I propose subsequently to alter it, although I am afraid nothing may come of it at this stage. But I repeat that any service I can render in endeavouring to come to an agreement on this matter in the future will be cheerfully and most zealously rendered.
On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendment insisted on accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: On the Commons Blue Paper, which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack wishes us to proceed by, there is an Amendment inserted here—Clause 2, page 1, line 18, to leave out "three-fifths" and insert "two-thirds"—that does not belong to disinterested management at all.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It would be convenient to adhere to the Blue Paper.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I agree that if we are going by the Blue Paper at all it would be better to adhere to it. I venture to suggest that we should not insist on this Amendment.
EARL. BEAUCHAMP: We are much obliged.
Lords Amendment.
Clause 2, page 1, line 18, leave out ("three-fifths") and insert ("two-thirds").
The Commons disagree to this Amendment:
Because they consider that the condition imposed by the Amendment is too stringent.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendment,—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendments.
Clause 2, page 2, line 2, after ("resolution") insert ("or of a disinterested management resolution, as the case may be")
Clause 3, page 3, line 25, after subsection (4) insert the following new subsections:
(5) For the period during which a disinterested management resolution remains in force in any area no certificate shall be granted therein except to an authorised public company: Provided that a certificate shall not be so granted unless the company has given such security by way of deposit or otherwise as the licensing court requires, for the payment by the company by way of annual or other periodical instalments to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board established under this Act, of one-half of the total declared value of the certificates in the area, as insured in accordance with the Third Schedule to this Act, which have been withdrawn in pursuance of the disinterested management resolution; or where applications for certificates within the area are entertained from more than one authorised public company, security for the payment of such proportion of half the total declared value aforesaid as may be fixed by the licensing court. The liability imposed upon any authorised public company in pursuance of the foregoing provision shall cease and determine if and when the disinterested management resolution, in pursuance of which the liability was imposed, ceases to be in force.
(6) The Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board shall apply the sums received in pursuance of the provisions of the immediately preceding subsection towards the payment of the claims of the licence holders in the area in respect of the withdrawal of whose certificates such sums are payable.
(7) An authorised public company means a company registered under the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, one of whose objects shall he the sale of exciseable liquors and whose memorandum and articles of association shall have been approved by the Secretary for Scotland. The memorandum and articles of association shall make provisions for such matters as the Secretary for Scotland may prescribe either generally or with reference to any particular authorised public company and shall provide, among other things—

(a) that, subject to the payment of all sums required in pursuance of this section to be paid by the company to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board, the whole of the profits, after payment of interest at not more than four per centum on the paid-up capital, and after making provision for the formation of a reserve fund equal in amount to the paid-up capital upon such terms as may be fixed by the memorandum and articles of association, shall be paid to the Secretary for Scotland, and shall be applied by him in making grants to local authorities to be expended upon such works of public utility as he may in each case prescribe;

(b) that no profit or advantage from the sale of exciseable liquors shall accrue to the shareholders or directors of the said company, beyond the aforesaid dividend, and the salary or remuneration of the managers or employees of the company shall not be dependent on, and shall not be subject to increase or decrease in porportion to, the sale of intoxicating liquors in any licensed house under the control of the company;

(c) that the accounts of the company shall be submitted to an annual audit by an auditor to be approved by the Secretary for Scotland, and that the report of such auditor, with an abstract of the accounts, shall be published in a newspaper circulating in each area in which the company holds a certificate. The auditor so appointed shall disallow and surcharge upon the interest on capital all unreasonable payments for rent, salaries and liquor, and any use of the profits otherwise than as hereinbefore provided. The licensing court shall also have power to appoint an auditor who shall have the right to inspect the books of the company at any reasonable time;

(d) that no person who, under section nine of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, is debarred from acting as a member of a licensing court shall be eligible to be a member or director or shareholder of an authorised public company within the meaning of this Act, and every person who shall knowingly or wilfully offend against any of the provisions aforesaid shall forfeit and pay the sum of fifty pounds, to be recovered before the sheriff within six calendar months next after the offence has been committed; and

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(e) that it shall be competent for such author-iced company to apply to the licensing court for the provisional grant of one or more such certificates without stating in the statutory application where the premises are severally situated or the proprietor's or factor's name and designation, and the licensing court shall make such provisional grants accordingly, but such provisional grants shall not be valid until declared to be final by the order of the licensing court to be made whenever the court is satisfied that the premises selected by the authorised company are suitable.

(8) Nothing in this Act shall entitle an authorised public company to apply for or to obtain a greater number of such certificates in any area than the number of certificates in force in such area at the date on which this Act came into operation; but it shall be competent for such authorised public company to apply for and to obtain a smaller number of such certificates than the number in force as aforesaid.
(9) Before any grant is made by the Secretary for Scotland to a local authority under this section, a draft scheme shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament during the Session of Parliament specifying the local authority to whom the grant is proposed to be made, the amount of the grant and the works of public utility upon which the grant is to be expended, and if within the next thirty days upon which that. House has sat either House passes a resolution against the scheme or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new draft scheme.
(10) The Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, as amended by this Act, shall apply to any application by an authorised public company for the grant or renewal of a certificate and in addition to any terms or conditions imposed under the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, as amended by this Act, a certificate granted to an authorised public company shall be granted and laid subject to the conditions specified in this section, and to such provisions in the memorandum and articles of association of the company as may have been required by the Secretary for Scotland to have been inserted therein and those conditions and provisions shall be taken to be within the terms and provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, and any breach of those conditions or provisions shall be an offence within the meaning of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, against the terms and conditions contained in the said certificate.
(11) Unless within three months after a disinterested management resolution is carried an authorised public company has made an application in writing to the licensing court of the area stating that the company is desirous of carrying on business in the area in accordance with the provisions of this section, and has satisfied the licensing court that the company is able and willing to undertake the liability for payments to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board imposed by this Section, the disinterested management resolution and the poll at which the resolution was carried shall be void.
Clause 3, page 3, lines 27 and 28, leave out ("or of a limiting resolution") and insert ("or, except where the grant of a certificate is refused to an authorised public company, in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution,")
Clause 4, page 3, line 32, after ("thereof") insert ("has not become void under the provisions of this Act, or")
"Clause 4, page 3, line 36, after ("or") insert ("if")
Clause 4, page 3, line 37, after the first ("resolution") insert ("or disinterested management resolution")
Clause 4, page 3, line 40, after ("for") insert ("a disinterested management resolution or for")
Clause 4, page 4, line 4, after ("for") insert ("a disinterested management resolution or for")
Clause 4, page 4, line 10, after paragraph (b) insert the following new paragraph:
("(c) if a disinterested management resolution is in force for the following options, that is to say, for the repeal or continuance of any such resolution, or for a limiting resolution, or for a no-licence resolution; and")
Clause 4, page 4, line 12, after ("same") insert ("or for a disinterested management resolution")
Clause 4, page 4, line 16, after ("resolution") insert ("or a disinterested management resolution")
Second Schedule, page 12, after line 15 insert:

DISINTERESTED MANAGEMENT RESOLUTION
(means that certificates for the sale of exciseable liquors shall only be granted to an authorised public company, and that the surplus profits of such company, after the payment of specified charges, are to be paid to a fund for use for public purposes throughout Scotland in accordance with the provisions of this Act).
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because the Amendments are consequential on an Amendment made by the Lords to which the Commons have disagreed.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: As to the first Amendment—Clause 2, page 2, line 2, after "resolution" to insert "or of a disinterested management resolution, as the case may be"— I move to insist upon that.
Moved, That this House do insist on the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I propose that we do not insist upon subsections (5) and (11), but that we substitute for them the new subsections standing in my name.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said subsections.—(Lord Balfour of Burleiyh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, To insert instead thereof the following new subsections (5) and (11):
(5) For the period during which a disinterested management resolution remains in force in any area, no certificate shall be granted for a public house (not being an inn and hotel or not being premises structurally adapted for use and to be used solely as a restaurant) except to an authorised public company: Provided that a certificate shall not be so granted unless the company has given such security, either by way of deposit or otherwise as the licensing court requires, for the payment by the company, by way of such instalments as may be determined by the licensing court to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board established under this Act, of one-half of the total declared value of the certificates in the area, as insured in accordance with the Third Schedule of this Act, which have been withdrawn in pursuance of the disinterested management resolution; or where applications for certificates within the area are entertained from more than one authorised public company, security for the payment of such proportion of half the total declared value aforesaid as may be determined by the licensing court. The liability imposed upon any authorised public company in pursuance of the foregoing provision shall cease and determine if and when the certificates granted to the authorised public company are withdrawn in conseqeunce of the disinterested management resolution, in pursuance of which the liability was imposed, having ceased to be in force.
(11) Unless within three months after a disinterested management resolution is carried an authorised public company has made an application in writing to the licensing court of the area stating that the company is desirous of carrying on business in the area in accordance with the provisions of this section, and has satisfied the licensing court that the company is able and willing to undertake the liability for payments to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board imposed by this section, the disinterested management resolution and the poll at which the resolution was carried shall be void and in such case if a requisition is made under this Act another poll may be taken in the month of November or December next following or at an earlier date if the local authority by resolution so determine.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The next Amendment is subsection (6). I move that we insist.
Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have an Amendment on subsection (7). I propose that your Lordships insist on subsection (7) with the exception of paragraph (d), in lieu of which I propose a new paragraph. The reason for this proposal is this. In another place it was pointed out that a certain confusion arose by reading this Bill with the Act of 1903. Under this Bill it was proposed, as your Lordships sent the Bill down to another place, that no one interested in the liquor trade should have any control over the disinterested management companies. Interest in the liquor trade was a vague phrase, and the Secretary for Scotland suggested that people who were interested in disinterested management companies were themselves interested in the liquor trade, which was therefore a contradiction in terms. I am not sure that we admit that reading of the two Acts of Parliament, but in order to prevent any confusion we have re-drafted the paragraph in such a way as to prevent that possible confusion occurring. I am afraid I must admit there has been a misprint in the Amendment, and I must ask your Lordships to allow me to insert, after the word "corporate" in line 5 of the new paragraph, the words "carrying on any such business," which have mysteriously slipped out.
Moved, That this House do insist on subsection (7) with the exception of paragraph (d).—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon paragraph (d) of subsection (7) being part of the Amendment inserted by this House in clause 3, page 3, line 25 of the Bill, but propose instead thereof the following new paragraph:
(d) that no person who carries on or is in partnership with any person for the purpose of

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carrying on the business of a brewer, maltster, distiller, or dealer in, or retailer of exciseable liquors or who is a director of or holds a controlling interest in any company or body corporate carrying on any such business other than an authorised public company within the meaning of this Act shall be eligible to be a member or director or shareholder of an authorised public company, and every person win shall knowingly or wilfully offend against any of the provisions aforesaid shall forfeit and pay the sum of fifty poems to be recovered before the sheriff within six calendar months next after the offence has been committed; and.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I have no objection to the Amendment, but it seems to me that this clause as re-drafted requires very careful consideration. I do not like the word "controlling" in it, because I do not want anybody who has an interest in any company or body corporate to come into disinterested management. I distrust this Amendment a good deal, because one thing I am particularly anxious about is that there should not be the slightest risk of the authorised company for disinterested management ever falling, either directly or indirectly, under the control of the trade in any shape or form. I believe the noble Marquess is just as anxious for that as I am, but, as far as I understand it, I do not think it will be sufficient to strike out anybody who holds a controlling interest. Therefore I think the word "controlling" is a dangerous word as it stands, and personally, of course, I would very much prefer that this Amendment was not moved.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The reason for the word "controlling" is that if we did not insert some such word every shareholder of any brewery company would be precluded from having anything to do with disinterested management. That appears to be too drastic, and therefore we put in the word "controlling" to limit the drastic character of the Amendment.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: It is not in order for me to speak again, and it is not possible for me to divide the House on the matter. I only wish to dissociate myself from this Amendment—at any rate for the present.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I now move that we insist upon subsections (8), (9) and (10).
Moved, That this House do insist upon the said. Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The Motion standing in my name on the Paper conies in here. The only reason for this is that it was objected to by the Secretary for Scotland in another place that if the Amendment as we sent it down were accepted a new poll could not be taken in the county for two years. This is a bona fide attempt to meet some of the criticisms that have been made.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon the Amendment inserted by this House to Clause 3, page 3, lines 27 and 28, i.e., the Amendment by which the following words were inserted:
"or, exeept where the grant of a certificate is refused to an authorised public company, in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The Amendment standing in my name is consequential.
Moved, To insert the following Amendment consequential upon new subsection (11) in Clause 3.
Page 5, line 11, after ("competent") insert ("or where a poll has become void under the provisions of this Act").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OE SALISBURY: I move that we insist on the remaining Amendments in Clause 4 which immediately follow on page 5 of the Commons Blue Paper.
Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: We next come to the Amendment to the Second Schedule. The point is that now that my noble friend has cut out hotels and restaurants he requires a very slight alteration in the Schedule. Of that he has given notice, and I venture to suggest to Lord Balfour that we ought not to insist on the Lords Amendment here, but in lieu thereof insert later on his new Amendment on the White Paper.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendments.
Clause 2, page 2, lines 14 to 18, leave out from ("poll") to the end of subsection (4).
Clause 4, page 4, lines 4 and 5, leave out from ("resolution") to the end of paragraph (b).
The Commons disagree to there Amendments:
Because they consider that it is reasonable in the event contemplated that the votes recorded in favour of a no-licence Resolution should be added to those recorded in favour of a limiting Resolution.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: We now come to your Lordships' Amendments in Clause 2, page 2, lines 14 to 18, leaving out from "poll" to the end of subsection (4); and in Clause 4, page 4, lines 4 and 5, leaving out from "resolution" to the end of paragraph (b). Your Lordships will see the note appended to that by the Commons. There has been some error in combining these two Amendments and giving the same reason for disagreement in the case of both; although there is some excuse, as what was given in the one case was meant to be balanced by what was given in the other when a limiting resolution was in force. Technically they should not be placed together, but they really are consequential one upon the other; and although His Majesty's Government hope that your Lordships will not insist on your Amendments I certainly shall not ask the House to divide upon the question.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendments.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: This question is the automatic transfer of the vote. The history of the matter is that a very large majority of your Lordships thought that the automatic transfer of the vote was indefensible, and it was struck out. It had reference to only three options, and afterwards we inserted a fourth option on the motion of Lord Courtney. His had the enormous merit compared with the old scheme that it was not automatic. The elector was allowed to decide for himself in which direction his vote should be exercised. On this part of the Bill the criticism of Lord Courtney to-day—that the action of the Commons in respect to these Amendments was unintelligible—was justified, because without the least amount of consideration they adhered to this unintelligent automatic alternative, and cut out Lord Courtney's care fully thought out scheme. Therefore I think we cannot do anything but insist upon our Amendments in this case.
On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.
Lords Amendments.
Clause 2, page 2, line 18, at the end of subsection (4) insert ("An elector in giving his vote:
"(a) must place on his ballot paper the figure (1) in the space opposite the resolution for which he votes; but
"(b) may in addition place on his ballot paper the figure (2) or the figures (2) and (3), or the figures (2), (3), and (4) in the spaces opposite the other resolutions in the order of his preference.
"If on a scrutiny it is found that no resolution has been carried in accordance with the conditions above prescribed, the no-licence resolution shall be deemed to have been negatived and the papers marked (1) against such resolutions shall be examined and transferred in accordance with the preferences, if any, expressed upon them to the new resolution or resolutions marked (2) on such papers; and if after this transfer no one of the three remaining resolutions is found to have been carried, the resolution in favour of disinterested management shall be deemed to have been negatived, and the voting papers which either originally or by transference support this resolution shall be examined and transferred in accordance with the preferences, if any, expressed upon them. If the limiting resolution is then found not to have been carried, the no-change resolution shall be deemed to be carried.")
Second Schedule, page 12, line 24, leave out ("making an X") and insert ("marking the figure (1)").
Page 12, line 25,leave out ("for") and leave out from the first ("you") to the end of the Schedule and insert ("most prefer. You may further mark the figures (2), (3) and (4) opposite the other resolutions in the order of your choice").
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because they consider that the method of taking a poll and arriving at the result thereof is unnecessarily complicated.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: We have now come to the Amendments generally associated with the name of my noble friend behind me, Lord Courtney. I am anxious not to detain your Lordships, but I want to say to him that I hope he clearly understands that the opposition in another place to these Amendments was not raised so much as an objection to the Amendments themselves, but in view of the fact that by the time these particular Amendments had been reached the disinterested management option had already been removed from the Bill. The Amendments in the form in which they had been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Courtney, were clearly therefore impossible, and any grounds of criticism which were directed against the Amendments of my noble friend were directed to them in the circumstances in which they were then put before the House of Commons and not against their intrinsic merits. I will once more move that this House do not insist on the Amendments, but with the expectation that your Lordships will not agree with the Motion.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendments. — (Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.
Lords Amendments.
Clause 3, page 3, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("or reducing")
Clause 3, lines 27 and 28, leave out ("or of a limiting resolution") and insert (" or except where the grant of a certificate is refused to an authorised public company in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution")
Clause 3, page 3, line 28, after ("appeal") insert ("but where any certificate has been withdrawn to give effect to a limiting resolution an appeal shall lie from such decision as in the ease of the refusal of the renewal of a certificate under the Provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903: Provided always that if the result of any appeal or appeals under this provision is to render the certificates in existence in the
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area in excess of the number allowed by the limiting resolution, the licensing court shall before the next general half-yearly meeting of the licensing court, prepare a scheme for the reduction of the certificates to the aforesaid number, and shall notify the same in manner similar to that prescribed in respect of the original scheme and shall proceed to give effect thereto").
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because the proposal to allow an appeal from the licensing court to the Court of Appeal where the licensing court has refused to renew the grant of a certificate in pursuance of a limiting resolution would make the machinery of reduction complicated and unworkable.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: These Amendments were negatived without a Division in another place. There was a very strong feeling on the subject, and therefore I beg to move that this House do not insist on the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendments. — (Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.
Lords Amendments.
Clause 5, page 4, lines 20 to 35, leave out ("Subsection (1)") and insert the following new subsection:
("(1) The requisition for a poll shall be made upon a requisition paper which shall be in the form set out in Schedule I of this Act and shall be signed by not less than one-tenth of the electors in the area. On the written demand of ten electors made not earlier than the fifteenth day of August or later than the twenty-fifth day of August next preceding the elate on which a poll can be taken under this Act a requisition paper shall be prepared by the clerk to the local authority who shall forthwith insert, in not less than two newspapers circulating in the district a notice that such paper is being publicly exhibited at his office, or at such fit and convenient place within the area to which the requisition applies as he shall in such notice specify for signature and inspection until the thirtieth day of the next following month of September when it will be removed. If the requisition paper shall he found by the local authority to have been duly signed by not less than one-tenth of the electors in the area, the cleric to the local authority shall thereupon insert in not less than two newspapers circulating in the area a notice that such requisition has been duly signed")
Clause 5, page 6, line 10, leave out from the second ("requisition") to ("shall") in line 13.
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because it seems unreasonable to require that the requisition should be signed only in a specified place.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: These Amendments were inserted in the Bill on my motion, and although I think that the plan which the Government propose is a plan which will promote improper canvassing, I do not think the subject is sufficiently important for me to ask your Lordships to insist on your Amendments.
Moved, That the House do not insist on the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendments.
After Clause 5 insert Clause A:
A.—(1) There shall be established in accordance with the provisions of the Third Schedule to this Act a Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board and also a Scottish Licence Holders Mutual Insurance Association or Associations, and every holder of a certificate shall insure in such an association in respect of each certificate held by him.
(2) The insurance of certificates shall be carried out in accordance with the provisions set out in the Third Schedule to this Act.
(3) A person from whom a certificate is withdrawn in pursuance of a resolution under this Act may, in accordance with the scheme set forth in the Third Schedule to this Act, recover the moneys payable to him thereunder: Provided always, and it is hereby expressly declared, that any claim in respect of the declared value of the certificate shall be enforceable only if, and in so far as, moneys for the payment of such claims are available under the said scheme.
(4) No excise licence for the sale by retail of exciseable liquor shall be granted by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise or by any officer of Customs and Excise except upon the production by the person authorised to hold the licence of a receipt for the insurance of his certificate for the year to which the licence relates and for any levy under the provisions of the Third Schedule to this Act.
(5) This section shall take effect as from the passing of this Act.
After the Second Schedule insert the following new schedule:
1. Every holder of a certificate shall before the twenty-eighth day of May next after the grant to him of a certificate become a member of a Mutual Insurance Association (in this Schedule referred to as "an association") which shall be an association not carried on for profit and shall be registered under the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, or the Friendly Societies Acts. The affairs of an association shall be subject to the absolute control of its members and one of the objects of an association shall be the insuring of every member of the association against loss arising from the withdrawal of his certificate by reason of a resolution under this Act. An association shall have a membership of not less than—

(a) in the case of an association insuring only "on" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than one thousand such licences; or

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(b) in the case of an association insuring only "off" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than five hundred such licences; or

(c) in the case of an association insuring both "on" and "off" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than one thousand "on" licences and persons holding in the aggregate not less than five hundred "off" licences.

2.—(1) Every holder of a certificate shall be entitled to become a member of an association, and an application for the insurance of a certificate shall not be refused by an association except on the ground that the certificate in respect of I which such application is made is already insured under the provisions of this Act, and an association which refuses or fails, except as aforesaid, duly to give a receipt for a premium paid or tendered in respect of the insurance of a certificate shall be liable, in the event of the withdrawal-of such certificate by reason of a resolution under this Act, to pay to the person whose certificate has been withdrawn the full declared value of such certificate.
(2) The application to become insured in an association shall be signed by the applicant, and shall contain a declaration of the value in accordance with rules made by the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board (hereinafter called "the declared value") of the certificate to be insured.
(3) The declared value shall be an amount not exceeding seven years purchase of the net annual profit from the sale of exciseable liquors carried on under the certificate, ascertained on the average of the three preceding years.
(4) When the declared value of a certificate has not been ascertained a receipt for the insurance of such certificate shall be issued by an association to the holder thereof on payment of the premium upon a provisional estimate of the declared value made by the holder of the certificate, and such receipt shall be sufficient for the purposes of subsection (4) of section 6 of this Act provided that an adjustment of the premium to be paid by the holder of the certificate to an association shall be made when the declared value has been ascertained, and failure to pay the sum by which the premium paid falls short of the full amount due shall be a sufficient ground for withholding a receipt for the premium paid in the succeeding year, and any over payment by the holder of the certificate in respect of a provisional estimate shall be retained by an association as part payment of the premium in respect of the declared value in the succeeding year.
4. The premium payable to an association in respect of the insurance of a certificate under this Act shall be an annual premium payable in advance and inclusive of the expenses of administration shall be at such rate not exceeding one half per centum of the declared value as the central board (established under this Schedule) may determine.
5.—(1) As soon as may be, but not later than four months after the passing of this Act there shall be constituted a Board to be styled the "Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board" (in this Schedule referred to as the "Central Board").
(2) The Central Board first constituted shall be elected by holders of certificates and shall consist of nine members of whom four shall be "on" licence holders, two "off" licence holders and the remaining members a brewer, distiller, and wholesale dealer respectively, who may act with a quorum of three and shall hold office for not more than two years.
(3) The Central Board shall be a body corporate with a common seal, and shall elect a chairman from their own number.
(4) The Secretary of the Licensed Trade Defence Association of Scotland shall receive nominations for membership and proceed to the election of a Central Board within three months after the passing of this Act, which election shall be decided by the holders of a majority of the certificates voting for a representative of each of the several classes of constituent members of such Board, and the expenses of such election shall be a charge against the first premiums payable in respect of insurance under the provisions of this Act.
6. The Central Board shall within twelve months after the passing of this Act, and from time to time thereafter if occasion arises, may make rules prescribing amongst other things—

(1) The conditions on which the declared value of certificates may be ascertained, approved, modified, or re-adjusted, and the method of verification of declared value if a certificate is withdrawn;

(2) The manner of subsequent election and the number of members of the Board, which shall not exceed twenty-one, the quorum, the duration of their office and the basis of representation: Provided that at least nine members shall be elected in the same proportions and in the same manner as in the Central Board first constituted, and in addition, each association may elect one member to the Central Board for every one thousand certificates insured with such association;

(3) The furnishing of receipts by secretaries of associations for premiums or levies;

(4) The mode in which claims and payments in respect of claims are to be made;

(5) Any matters incidental to the proper conduct of the affairs of the Board and to carrying out the provisions of this Act:

Provided always that no such rule shall contain anything inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, and every such rule shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary for Scotland.
7.—(1) On or before the thirtieth day of June in each year every association shall pay to the Central Board eight shillings and sixpence per centum of the declared value from the amount of the premiums received by the association under the provisions of this Act.
(2) The amounts received in respect of premiums paid by holders of certificates for on-licences and by holders of certificates for off-licences respectively, shall be carried by the Central Board to two separate accounts to be called respectively "The On-Licence Holders' Insurance Fund" and "The Off-Licence Holders' Insurance Fund." No part of the "On-Licence Holders' insurance Fund" shall be applied to the payment of any claim relating to an officence and no part of the "Off-Licence Holders'
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Insurance Fund" shall be applied to the payment of any claim relating to an on-licence. The Central Board shall have the management of the said funds, and the investment thereof, and the whole of the said funds shall be applied to the payment of claims as provided by this Act.
(3) The necessary preliminary and office and administration expenses of the Central Board shall be contributed by each association in proportion to the total declared values of the certificates insured by said associations: Provided that the fees to members of the Central Board shall not exceed an aggregate of one thousand pounds in any one year.
8.—(1) When a certificate is withdrawn by reason of any resolution carried under this Act, a claim upon the appropriate fund to an amount not exceeding the declared value shall thereupon arise, provided that no such claim shall be enforceable against the Central Board except in respect of funds in the possession of and sums due to the Central Board at the time when the claim arises and sums due to the Central Board before the expiration of the year in which such certificate is withdrawn, and where the certificate has been withdrawn in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution, in respect also of sums received by or due to the Central Board under the provisions of subsection (5) of section three of this Act.
(2) When either of the funds of the Central Board is insufficient to meet the claims of members of associations in any particular year, the appropriate fund shall be divided among such members in proportion to the declared value of the certificates.
9.—(1) Where in any year the respective amounts paid by the Central Board are insufficient to pay in full the respective claims arising in that year of "on" or "off" licence holders, a claim shall thereupon be enforceable against an association by any member thereof whose claim against the Central Board in respect of a certificate insured by such association has not been paid in full, and the directors of an association shall impose upon the on-licence holders or off-licence holders (as the case may require) who are members of the association a levy not exceeding one and half per centum of the declared value of each certificate.
(2) If the proceeds of the levy are insufficient to pay in full the claims in respect of which it was made, the unpaid balance of the claims shall be carried forward for the two following years, and in each of these years, if necessary, the like levy shall be made and the proceeds thereof shall be applied to the payment of all outstanding claims, and to no other purpose.
(3) After the distribution in the third year all claims against an association in respect of a certificate which has been withdrawn shall be deemed to have been discharged.
10. The holder of a certificate who has paid the premium payable in respect of the insurance of the certificate or a levy under section eight of this Schedule shall be entitled to deduct from the interest on any loan advanced to him under any agreement, undertaking, or covenant binding him to obtain a supply of excisable liquor from the leader a sum bearing such proportion to the said premium or levy as the loan bears to the declared value of the said certificate: Provided that the lender shall have a right to any sum receivable under this Schedule, proportionate

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to the premium or levy paid by him, and in default of agreement the amount of premium or levy to be deducted or the sum due to the lender shall be determined by the sheriff.
11. All sums due by an authorised public company under the provisions of subsection (5) of section three of this Act shall be paid to the Central Board, and shall be applied by the Central Board towards the payment of the claims of the licence holders in respect of the withdrawal of whose certificates such sums are payable.
12. The clerk of a licensing court shall, on request, in writing, furnish to the Central Board or to an association or before the constitution of the Central Board to the secretary of the Licensed Trade Defence Association of Scotland a list of all the persons who have obtained certificates or the sale by retail of excisable liquor in the district within the jurisdiction of the licensing court for the current year, in conformity with the conditions set out in section twenty-five of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, which shall apply with the necessary modifications.
13. In this Schedule, unless the context otherwise requires,—
The expression "on licence" means a licence for the sale of any excisable liquor for consumption on the premises:
The expression "off licence" means a licence for the sale of any excisable liquor not to be consumed on the premises.
The Commons disagree to these Amendments:
Because they consider it is undesirable to set up a compulsory scheme of insurance, the provisions of which are unsatisfactory in themselves, and inappropriate to this Bill.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: This brings us to the compulsory insurance question, on which I have no more to say except that His Majesty's Government are unable to agree to these Amendments. I think the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, has some Amendments to make to-day. But it is unnecessary for me to detain your Lordships by repeating our arguments on the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid we cannot consent to drop the insurance scheme. Your Lordships will have realised that we are by no means bigoted as to the particular form of the insurance scheme. All we could do we did to the best of our power. We had not access to the information or to the resources which the Government have access to, but we did the best we could. The matter is a very complicated one. I am not prepared to say that we have reached a perfect scheme, and I earnestly hope that the Government will devote their attention to this subject if the Bill does not pass through in the present session, and that we shall be able to agree on a scheme hereafter.
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This is a matter which primarily concerns the trade and the trade alone; they are the only contributors to the insurance fund. Your Lordships are aware of the enormous number of licensees who, by themselves or their representatives, have supported a mutual insurance scheme very much on these lines. The changes made subsequently owing to your Lordships' views were comparatively minor amendments, although of importance; but as regards the main scheme there is this solid opinion in its favour on the part of the licensed trade. For that reason we desire to insist upon it in order that the unfortunate man who is turned out should not be turned out without a half-penny. I beg, therefore, to move that we insist on the whole clause excluding the new Schedule.
Moved, That this House do insist on the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That this House (having decided not to insist upon the Amendment inserted in the Second Schedule, page 12, after line 15) do propose instead thereof the following Amendment:

DISINTERESTED MANAGEMENT RESOLUTION.
(means that certificates for public houses, not being inns and hotels or premises to be used solely as restaurants, shall only be granted to an authorised public company, and that the surplus profits of such company, after the payment of specified charges, are to be paid to a fund for use for public purposes throughout Scotland in accordance with the provisions of the Act.)
—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I move to insist on the Schedule down to the end of Clause 5.
Moved, That this House do insist on the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: With regard to Clause 6 of the Schedule, I propose not to insist upon it, but to make a slight alteration in it and to move it as a new clause. This is done in deference to an opinion which was expressed by the Secretary for Scotland in another place. The right hon gentleman criticised the obligation which your Lordships threw on him and his Office to approve the rules of this Insurance Board, and consequently we seek to relieve the Secretary for Scotland from that responsibility. Instead of leaving it to the Secretary for Scotland, we propose to take the other very well-known method of allowing the rules to lie on the Table of both Houses so that they may have the sanction of Parliament. That is the sum total of the change I propose.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon Clause 6 of the new Schedule inserted by this House after the Second Schedule to the Bill, but propose instead thereof the following new clause:
6.—(1) The Central Board shall within twelve months after the passing of this Act, and from time to time thereafter if occasion arises, may make rules prescribing amongst other things—

(1) The conditions on which the declared value of certificates may be ascertained, approved, modified or re-adjusted, and the method of verification of declared value if a certificate is withdrawn;

(2) The manlier of subsequent election and the number of members of the Board, which shall not exceed twenty-one, the quorum, the duration of their office and the basis of representation: Provided that at least nine members shall be elected in the same proportions and in the same manner as in the Central Board first constituted, and in addition, each association may elect one member to the Central Board for every one thousand certificates insured with such association;

(3) The furnishing of receipts by secretaries of associations for premiums or levies;

(4) The mode in which claims and payments in respect of claims are to be made;

(5) Any matters incidental to the proper conduct of the affairs of the Board and to carrying out the provisions of this Act;

Provided always that no such rule shall contain anything inconsistent with the provisions of this Act.
(2) Before any rule is made under this section a draft thereof shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament during the session of Parliament, and if either House during the next succeeding thirty days on which that House has sat passes a resolution against the draft or any part thereof no further proceedings shall be taken thereon without prejudice to the making of any fresh draft.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That this House do insist on Clauses 7, 8, and 9 of the new Schedule.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Now we come to Clause 10 of our new Schedule. I propose to ask your Lordships not to insist on that, because it was criticised by the Secretary for Scotland in another place and we do not think it worth while to proceed any further with it.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That this House do insist on Clauses 11, 12, and 13 of the new Schedule inserted by this House.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendment.
Clause 6, page 6, line 18, leave out from ("until") to ("it") in line 19 and insert ("the earliest date when resolutions under the provisions of this Act can come into operation,")
The Commons disagree to this Amendment:
Because they consider it desirable that the limitation on the power of a licensing court to order structural alterations of licensed premises should cease on a specified date not too long delayed.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: This Amendment which your Lordships inserted is consequential on what we have already decided to insist upon to-day.
Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendment.
Clause 15, page 10, line 13, leave out from ("burgh") to ("and") in line 18 and insert ("which is not divided into wards, or of a burgh the population of which within the police boundaries thereof according to the census for the time being last taken is less than twenty-five thousand, the whole burgh and in the case of any other burgh, any ward or combination of wards or parts of wards, proposed by the town council and approved by the Secretary for Scotland, of which the population shall not be less than twelve thousand").
The Commons propose to amend this Amendment by leaving out from ("ward") to the end of the paragraph and inserting ("thereof")
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: This is an Amendment dealing with the areas, and the Government in the other House propose to restore the wards. I do not wish to detain your Lordships at any length, but I think the Government ought to give us some reason for restoring the wards, because it has been proved ad nauseam that the ward is not a satisfactory area. For instance, in Glasgow there are three wards which converge upon the Central Station, and in almost all big towns the dividing line is frequently down streets. Lord Balfour gave us an instance the other day of Alloa, where the wards are all divided down the middle of streets. It is therefore impossible that a ward can be a satisfactory area. I could prove it to your Lordships, if necessary, by a great many more cases. I know it is exactly the same in the town of Dundee. I think that the Government ought to give us some reason for insisting upon a ward being an area. It is contrary to all experience, and to everybody's knowledge is an unsatisfactory area for this purpose.
Moved, That this House do not insist upon the words which the Commons propose to leave out of the Amendment inserted by this House in Clause 15, page 10, line 13 of the Bill, but propose to add to the Amendment as proposed to be amended by the Commons the following words:
("unless the Secretary for Scotland after an application in that behalf made by the town council makes a regulation (which it is hereby declared he shall have power to make) constituting any combination of wards or parts of wards of such burgh an area for the purposes of this Act"),—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I regret that His Majesty's Government are unable to fall in with the wishes of the noble Earl and agree to this Amendment. I may say, however, that opinion in another place seems very decided upon this question, as the voting was only 77 in favour as against 214 in opposition to the Amendment of the noble Earl. It is true that the difficulties are as mentioned by the noble Earl in places such as Alloa, hut, as I think we said on previous occasions, they are almost sure to arise whatever kind of division is accepted. The difficulty that arises in connection with this would be the setting up of ad hoc areas for this special purpose, which we think undesirable when there are already well defined areas which everybody knows and which in our opinion are quite suit able for the purpose. The making of these artificial areas would result in creating still further confusion in local government.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I think the reason given by the noble Earl is a very bad one. He says the ward is a well-known area. It is; but it is equally well known to be perfectly unsuitable for this purpose. I ask your Lordships not to insist on the Amendment as originally drafted and as rejected by the House of Commons, but to insert an Amendment which slightly differs from it. In my original Amendment I proposed that an area in these towns should be such ward or combination of wards or parts of wards as was proposed by the town council and approved by the Secretary for Scotland. I now propose that the ward should be the area except in very exceptional cases—I go to that extent to meet His Majesty's Government—and that where the town council applies to the Secretary for Scotland to make a different area he should be empowered to make a regulation constituting such a combination of wards as may seem fit.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I do not think the noble Earl quite understands the position in which we are as regards this matter. The case of Alloa does not come in here, because Alloa has a population of under 12,000. The area for one district under this clause is a burgh of 25,000; it is only those that are above 25,000 that are to be divided into wards.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: That is so. I was mistaken.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The point is whether burghs above 25,000 should have the power of joining wards for this purpose. I think there is a very strong case for this Amendment. There is a particularly strong case for it in Glasgow, and this Amendment was supported in another place by the Member for Glasgow, who gave very good reasons for it. He said that in the Central division of Glasgow there was a daily population of 200,000 or 300,000, whereas the resident population amounted to only 2,500. That number of voters, who would be mostly caretakers and that class of individual, would have the power of saying whether these 200,000 or 300,000 people should be allowed intoxicating liquors or not in the district where they carry on their business. It does seem to me an absurdity that the 2,500 resident there at night should have the power of controlling the habits of the 200,000 or 300,000 who come in in the course of the day to do their business. The

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same thing would happen in the City of London. Your Lordships cannot be expected to know what is connoted by the Central division of Glasgow. That division is the business division of Glasgow. Buchanan-street, for example, has the Exchange and all the great places of business, the insurance offices and so on, and it really is the height of absurdity that the 2,000 or 3,000 people who live there in quite a subordinate position should have the right of voting as to whether the 200,000 or 300,000 who come in for the day to carry on their business should or should not be able to get reasonable refreshment with their luncheon.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: May I say one word upon this subject? The noble Earl in charge of the Bill expressed just now a great dislike to what he called ad hoc areas. He said that ad hoc areas were not suitable for the purpose of this Bill. Does the noble Earl go so far as to say that all existing wards are suitable for the purpose of this Bill? My noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh has cited cases in which obviously the existing divisions are not suitable, and all that my noble friend Lord Camperdown desires is, in cases of that kind where the existing divisions are not suitable, that upon the application of the town council and with the approval of the Secretary for Scotland there should be a fresh grouping of areas. I never heard a proposal that seemed more entirely reasonable on the face of it, and I cannot understand why His Majesty's Government, if only for the improvement of their own Bill, do not accept the proposal with alacrity.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I can only speak again on this question by the leave of your Lordships' House. We have gone as far as we possibly could, and I have no doubt that the noble Marquess, and certainly the noble Earl behind him, will agree that we did go a very long way towards meeting the wishes of noble Lords. The original figure in the Bill was 10,000, and we increased it to 25,000.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: That is so.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: We do not see our way to go further in this direction. It has been pointed out, not unfairly, that this Amendment contains not only wards but parts of wards, so that we should
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distinctly get a new area which might be used for no other purpose than this particular purpose. I should not commit myself to the further proposition with regard to areas which the noble Marquess put to me. I will content myself with saying that His Majesty's Government, having considered this question in another place and also here, regret that they are unable to meet the wishes of the noble Earl.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
A Committee appointed to prepare Reasons for the Lords insisting on certain of their Amendments: The Committee to meet forthwith.

CLERKS OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is a very simple Bill. The Court of Session in Scotland consists of two Divisions, and in each of these Divisions there is a Principal Clerk, and they have under them deputy and ordinary clerks. The business of the Principal Clerks is not unlike that of the Registrar in the English Court of Chancery, but in reality they have comparatively little to do. The functions are reduced to superintending the general business of the Clerks of Quarter Session. His Majesty's Government propose to reduce the number of Principal Clerks to one from and after the occurrence of a vacancy in the office. Instead of filling up the next vacancy His Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that as things are the work would be more advantageously done by one Principal Clerk instead of two. We propose to allow the existing holders of the office to continue as they are at present, but we propose when the next vacancy occurs to leave it unfilled and continue with only one Principal Clerk of session, and we think that this reduction will be conducive to the public benefit rather than militate against it. In those circumstances I ask your Lordships to read the Bill a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill react 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Bill relates to the procedure in the Sheriff Courts in Scotland. There was an Act in 1907 which laid down the procedure for the various Sheriff Courts, and the Bill provides for certain amendments to that Act which are considered desirable. I may tell your Lordships that this Bill has been thoroughly examined and discussed by those best able to judge, and Amendments have been made in it by them.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I would like to confirm what the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has said. I know that this Bill has been very carefully scrutinised by those watching this procedure. It is almost a matter of arrangement, and the Bill is supported with unanimity by those concerned.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

TUBERCULOSIS PREVENTION (IRELAND) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to facilitate the operations of local bodies in dealing with tuberculosis in Ireland. Your Lordships will no doubt remember that the Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Act of 1908 enabled county councils to erect hospitals, sanatoria, and dispensaries in order to be able to treat patients who were suffering from tuberculosis in the county, and under the Irish Public Health Acts the local sanitary authorities were given similar powers. The Insurance Act of last year made very extensive provisions for the treatment of this disease and largely increased the powers of county councils for this purpose, and this Bill seeks to place the county councils in a position to be able to take advantage of the provisions of the Insurance Act.
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The clauses are very few in number. The first clause is designed to remove a difficulty which has been found to exist. Under the Act of 1908, while the county councils were responsible for the cost of the creation of these institutions, the expenses of their maintenance fell upon the district councils. This provision of the Bill seeks to make the expenses both of maintenance and of creation fall upon the county councils, partly in view of the fact that under the Insurance Act the unit is the county and not the district, and partly that under that Act half of the cost will be paid by the Treasury. The second clause of the Bill is to a certain extent consequential on the first. It lays down that where more than one county council is responsible for the maintenance of these institutions, the councils concerned shall agree among themselves as to the proportion to be paid by each council towards this expense, and in cases where they fail to reach an agreement on this point the Local Government Board is to decide. Clause 3 makes it possible for local sanitary authorities, should they agree among themselves to do so, to transfer a hospital to the county council. This in all cases is subject to the consent of the Local Government Board. The two other clauses are really more of a minor nature. Clause 4 makes it clear that a person can be received in these institutions even though he may not be an inhabitant of the county which has charge of them; and the last clause is designed in the first instance to meet a particular case which has arisen in County Galway. The County Council of Galway are anxious to erect a dispensary in the grounds of the Galway Hospital, and the authorities of the hospital are also desirous that this should be done. The latter are, however, unable to give the necessary permission because the land is vested in the Local Government Board, and the Local Government Board again have no power to allow the land to be used for this purpose. This clause seeks to give them that power; but there is a provision which was inserted in the Bill in another place to safeguard any abuse which might be made of such a power.
Such, my Lords, are the provisions of the Bill in the shape in which it has reached your Lordships' House; but I may say that when it was introduced originally in another place it contained two clauses which made the notification of tuber-

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culosis compulsory. It was found, however, that these were of so contentious a nature that if they remained in the Bill there would have been very little chance of the measure coming into force this session. Somewhat unwillingly, therefore, they were struck out of the Bill, because it was felt to be all important that the measure should become law this session in order that county councils might be in a position to take advantage of the provisions of the Insurance Act. The Bill is now an agreed Bill, and it is as an agreed Bill that I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading this evening; and I venture to express the hope that in view of the desirability of its becoming law during the present session your Lordships may be disposed to let it pass through this House without amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Herschell.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

SHOPS ACT (1912) AMENDMENT BILL.
[SMOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, this Bill comes up from another place, where it was the result of an agreement between representatives of the Opposition, the Labour Party, and also of the Home Office. It is a Bill promoted at the instance of the Society of Refreshment House Keepers and Coffee House Keepers and also of that very important body the Waiters' Society, and it really is to suit the convenience largely of waiters and those engaged in the refreshment business. The Bill provides special provisions for those who are engaged
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in the sale of refreshments, and with that object it seeks to amend the first section of the Shops Act, 1912. As your Lordships can easily imagine, the code of regulations and hours and so on laid down does not suit all trades, and especially does not suit the refreshment trade. The hours of meals are altered, and in addition to that the hours of holidays and the number of Sundays to be enjoyed free, and so on, are also altered as the result of this agreement. The provisions of this Bill, if it becomes law, are put into force by individual adoption—that is to say, each refreshment-house keeper or coffee-house keeper has to give notice that he will adopt its provisions. He has to put a notice up to that effect in his place of business, and at the end of the year he can go back to the old arrangement if he chooses. The only other observation I need make about the Bill is this, that it does not apply to those refreshment houses which are carried on by the occupier solely with the assistance of his family. In that case he is unable, under the provisions of the Bill, to adopt this method of carrying on his business. I think there is really nothing more to say about it. There is, of course, the usual list of penalties for various offences. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Peel.)
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, I might say that, so far as the Government are concerned, they consider this Bill in every way a desirable one, and they will be only too glad to see it passed into law at the earliest opportunity.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.