Sitting of 13 August 1913

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER, in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Aldbar Trust Estates Bill [Lords],
Ordered, That, in the case of the Aldbar Trust Estates Bill [Lords], Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Deputy-Chairman.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
East Ham Corporation Bill,
Ordered, That so much of the Lords Message [12th August] as relates to the East Ham Corporation Bill be now considered.
So much of the Lords Message as relates to the East Ham Corporation Bill considered accordingly:—
Ordered, That the Promoters of the East Ham Corporation Bill which has been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which has passed this House and been sent to the House of Lords, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than five o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session:
That such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than five o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session:
That the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages:
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any of
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the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

Airdrie Corporation Gas Order Confirmation Bill,

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 12) Bill,

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15) Bill,

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 18) Bill,

Pilotage Provisional Order Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Lanarkshire (Middle Ward District) Water Order Confirmation Bill,
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 3) Bill [Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 6) Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered:—
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8, Kingstown) Bill [Lords],
Ordered, That the Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8, Kingstown) Bill [Lords] be suspended in order that the same Bill may be proceeded with in the next Session of Parliament:
That when the said Bill is brought from the House of Lords in the next Session of Parliament it shall be read the first and a second time pro formâ, and thereupon shall, in accordance with the Order of the House of the 6th August, 1913, stand referred to the Committee of Selection:
That any Petitions presented against the Kingstown Order in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill [Lords],

2473
which stood referred to the Committee on that Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8, Kingstown) Bill [Lords] in the next Session of Parliament.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to acquaint them therewith, and desire their concurrence.
Local Government (Adjustments) Bill,
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith.—[Mr. Burns.]
Considered accordingly, and agreed to.

WOMEN SUFFRAGE.
Mr. PONSONBY: I desire to present Petitions signed on behalf of largely attended meetings held during the suffrage pilgrimage at Banbury, Oxford, Thami, Twyford, Slough, Maidenhead, Reading, Newbury, Carnarvon, and Bangor, demanding the extension of the Parliamentary franchise to women.
Mr. T. E. HARVEY: I desire to present a Petition from a meeting held at Rotherham, 4th July, 1913, in support of the constitutional demand for women suffrage, believing that the exclusion of women from the Parliamentary franchise is unjust and contrary to the principle of representative Government, and begging that your honourable House will remove this injustice without further delay.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: I desire to present Petitions in connection with the recent pilgrimage of the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies, praying for the removal of the disability from women in regard to the Parliamentary franchise from Glastonbury, Richmond (2), Kingston, Surbiton, and Coombe.
Mr. SANDERS: I desire to present a Petition from a meeting held at Bridgwater praying the House to remove the the electoral disabilities of women at the earliest possible date.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
(Part II.), Account [presented 16th July] to be printed [No. 291.]
Copy presented of Appendices to the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the extension of Medical Benefit under the National Health Insurance Act to Ireland. Minutes of Evidence, etc. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy present of Report by the Chief Inspector to the National Health Insurance Commission (England) on an Inquiry into the Reasons why certain Insured Persons became Deposit Contributors [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
Copy presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 5175 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
TRAMWAY ORDERS.
Copy presented of Report by the Board of Trade of their Proceedings under the Tramways Act, 1870, during the Session of 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS, 1894 to 1906 (VESSELS DETAINED.
Copy presented of Return of all Ships ordered by the Board of Trade or its Officers during the period from 1st July, 1912, to 30th June, 1913, to be provisionally detained as unsafe [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
RAILWAY CONCILIATION SCHEME.
Copy presented of Statement of Settlements regarding questions as to Rates of Wages, Hours of Labour, and Conditions of Service of Railway Employés that have been effected under the revised Conciliation Scheme recommended by the Royal Commission on the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme of 1907, as amended by the Railway Conference Agreement of 11th December, 1911 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
TRAMWAYS AND LIGHT RAILWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 3rd April; Mr. Sydney Buxton]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 292.]
RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
Copy presented of Summary of Accidents and Casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several Railway Companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ended 31st March, 1913, together with Reports of the Inspecting Officers of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain Accidents which were inquired into [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
RAILWAY COMPANIES (STAFF AND WAGES).
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 8th May; Mr. John Robertson]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 294.]
RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR).
Copy presented of Report by the Board of Trade of their Proceedings under the Railway Regulation Act, 1893, during the year ended 27th July, 1913 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 294.]
TAXES AND IMPOSTS.
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 10th July; Sir Daniel Goddard]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 295.]
LICENSING STATISTICS, 1911.
Copy presented of Statistics as to the operation and administration of the Laws relating to the Sale of Intoxicating Liquor in England and Wales for the year 1912 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY OF LANCASTER).
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county of Lancaster redividing the Heywood Parliamentary Division of the county into Polling Districts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY BOROUGH OF STOKE-ON-TRENT).
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county borough of Stoke-on-Trent re-dividing No. 9 Ward of the Parliamentary Borough of Hanley into Polling Districts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACTS (DANGEROUS AND UNHEALTHY INDUSTRIES).
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 9th August, 1913, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in pursuance of Section 79 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, for the manufacture of Chromate and Bichromate of Potassium or Sodium [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
SUPREME COURT (RULES).
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Copy of Rules of the Supreme Court (August), 1913, dated 12th August, 1913 [by Act].

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have aggreed to,

Isle of Man (Customs) Bill,

Misdescription of Fabrics Bill,

Public Health (Prevention and Treatment of Disease) Bill,

Foreign Jurisdiction Bill, without Amendment.

National Insurance Act (1911) Amendment Bill,

Mental Deficiency and Lunacy (Scotland) Bill,

Post Office (London) Railway Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—

Appellate Jurisdiction Bill [Lords],

Aberystwyth Corporation Bill [Lords],

Limerick Harbour Commissioners Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT (1911) AMENDMENT BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 331.]
MENTAL DEFICIENCY AND LUNACY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 329.]
POST OFFICE (LONDON) RAILWAY BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 332.]
INCLOSURE ACTS.
Return ordered, "in chronological order of all Acts passed for the inclosure of Commons or Waste Lands, separately, in England and Wales, arranged under the headings of the counties in alphabetical order, and distinguishing the parishes in which the same were situated, and incorporating the information contained in Lord Worsley's Return, No. 235, of 9th and 14th June, 1843."—[Mr. Higham.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  ROYAL NAVY.

    DOCKYARD APPRENTICES (TRANSFERENCE).
    Mr. MILDMAYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the recent announcement that, subject to the preference naturally to be accorded to dockyard apprentices, the promised transference of men from leading carpenters' crew to shipwrights would be continuous as vacancies occurred, he will explain why shipwrights, not being dockyard apprentices, are being entered direct from the shore, and carpenters' crew ratings, though qualified for shipwrights for several years, are being denied that advancement which was held out to them as an inducement to join the Service
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): I may refer the hon. Member to my answer of the 9th June to the hon. Member for Devonport. No promise was given of continuous transfer from carpenter ratings to shipwright as vacancies occur. Such transfers are regulated at the discretion of the Admiralty.

    FLOATING DOCK (CROMARTY FIRTH).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can give the date when it is proposed to start laying moorings in the Cromarty Firth for the floating dock?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill): The actual date for commencing to lay moorings for the Cromarty floating dock cannot at present be determined, but it is anticipated that a commencement will be made about the end of September.

    H.M.S. "RECOVERY."
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty when it is proposed to inaugurate the two years' system with regard to relieving the crew of His Majesty's ship "Recovery"; and can he say when this ship may be expected to return to Devonport?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is proposed to inaugurate the system of relieving the crew of the "Recovery" after two years' service in that vessel as soon as convenient arrangements can be made. I may, however, point out that the whole of the officers and crew of that vessel, with the exception of one man, have been relieved since June, 1912. It cannot be stated at present when the vessel may be expected to return to Devonport.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Am I to assume from the answer that these men will stay there for another year?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I cannot add to the answer which I have already given.

    SHIPWRIGHTS.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can say how many naval shipwrights will be returning to the dockyards before the end of the year, having completed their twelve years' service; and, seeing that no provision is made for the establishment of these men in the Estimates for 1913–14, will he say whether it is proposed to establish these men at once, and whether the fact of these men coming on the establishment will in any way affect the number of dockyard shipwrights who are expecting establishment this year?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: It is anticipated that nine naval shipwrights will return to the dockyards before 31st March, 1914.

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    They will be placed on the established list on completing their twelve years' naval service, and as already stated in my answer to the hon. Member on the lath January, the dockyard shipwrights will not be affected.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Was provision made in the Estimates?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I told the hon. Gentleman on 23rd January that these men on the establishment list will be additional to the present establishment.

    OIL FUEL.
    Mr. HUNTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the interim Report of the Royal Commission on Oil Fuel?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have nothing to add to the reply given to the Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth on the 10th of February last.
    Mr. HUNT: Is this Commission a public one and will the expense be paid out of public funds—and are not the public, therefore, entitled to its Report?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir. The inquiry is confidential and the Report has been made on that basis.
    Mr. HUNTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the five ships of the "Dreadnought" type designed for oil fuel were designed for that fuel before the Royal Commission on Oil Fuel reported at all; and, if so, will he explain why this was done?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The reply to the first part of the question is "Yes." I have already explained to the House the reasons for which these ships were so designed.
    Mr. HUNT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why there was all this secrecy and hurry over the oil transactions when we had to go back to coal-driven ships directly afterwards?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I gave very full information to the House, and I could not at present add anything that would be useful.

    GUN-RUNNING (PERSIAN GULF).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the case of the
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    men serving on the armed launches employed on the gun-running blockade in the Persian Gulf; whether he can see his way to give these men more leave than at present is the case; is he aware that in some cases the men have been on the station for over eighteen months with only forty-eight hours' leave; that their pay is irregular; and that often they have to wait for slops, soap, and tobacco for three or four months before receiving the usual month's allowance; and whether he will consider the possibility of so amending matters that the daily lives of these men may be made more comfortable than is now the case?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I will have inquiry made into these allegations. At the same time, I must point out that the service in question is in the nature of active service, and some discomfort is consequently unavoidable. There are, however, certain compensations, such as hard-lying money; and it is usual on their return to England to give the crews some additional foreign service leave.
    Colonel YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the fearful heat these men undergo in the Persian Gulf, and whether they ought not to get something more for the extraordinary services they have to perform months on end?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: All those circumstances are very carefully considered with the general conditions of service in the Navy, but there may be cases of exceptional hardship, and I am inquiring into the allegations.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain if it be the fact that forty-eight hours' leave only was given in eighteen months, and will he see that that sort of thing does not occur again?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think it is much better to make inquiry first into the truth of the allegations.

    ADMIRALTY CONTRACT (FAIR-WAGES CLAUSE).
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can yet state the result of the inquiries into the alleged violation of the Fair-Wages Clause by the British Portland Cement Manufacturers and the Associated Portland

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    Cement Manufacturers, inquiries which were instituted four months ago?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I have received a full report on the subject. I will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I have been able thoroughly to consider
    it.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I put a similar question four weeks ago and I received the same answer, and will he explain how it takes so long to investigate these matters?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: I do not know about four weeks ago, but the matter was raised first four months ago. It is one of considerable difficulty. There is a great variety of labour in the locality and it is difficult to compare these with the cement workers. I referred the matter to the Board of Trade, who have given me a full report which I should like to consider.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Labour Members very often get censured for not stoking-up these Departments?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: As far as my experience goes, the censure is very ill-deserved.

    NEW CONSTRUCTION.
    Mr. KINGasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he intends in his naval programme of next year to enlarge or define his proposals for a naval holiday from new construction of battleships in such a manner as, if possible, to meet the difficulties of other Powers in adopting a similar proposal?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I cannot at present add anything to my statement to the House on 26th March last, which fully explained the views and wishes of His Majesty's Government and the policy we are desirous of pursuing.
    Mr. KING: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been drawn to a recent semi-official publication, the "Nauticus," in which difficulties are specially brought forward with regard to his policy, and will he study them in the holiday?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Even in the present laborious Session I have already found time to read the statements.

    ROSYTII DOCKYARD.
    Mr. PONSONBYasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have yet expressed their opinion on the draft town-planning scheme for the Rosyth area submitted to them by the Dunfermline Town Council?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The Admiralty have the scheme under their consideration, but they are not yet able to express their opinion upon it.
    Mr. PONSONBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that there is no unnecessary delay of the scheme, as it is undesirable that the work should be retarded unnecessarily?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: We thought it desirable to have a conference with the Local Government Board in Scotland and then we thought it desirable to,submit the whole matter to an expert, and we are awaiting his report.

    DEVONPORT DOCKYARD (WAGES).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Secretary for War whether he is aware of the disparity in wages paid at His Majesty's Gunwharf, Devonport, compared, with the wages paid in His Majesty's dockyard, and that wood-workers doing all classes of work only receive from 31s. to 34s. 6d. a week, engine-drivers and cranemen 27s. 6d. with no pay for overtime, fitters from 35s. 6d. to 38s., blacksmiths 31s. to 35s., shipwrights 35s., and saddlers and hosemakers 26s. 6d., whereas in each of these cases higher wages are paid in His Majesty's dockyard; anti whether, in view of this discrepancy and the increased cost of living, he will consider the possibility of raising the wages of workers in His Majesty's Gunwharf, Devonport, so as to place them on the same footing with workers in His Majesty's dockyard?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. H. Baker): I am having inquiries made.

  Tibet.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since Tibet is now practically independent of China, the conditions of the Anglo-Russian Convention in regard to Chinese suzerainty, subsequently claimed as

  2483
  sovereignty, will now be reconsidered so as to give British-Indian commercial and other interests opportunity and scope for development without the necessity for the concurrence of any Chinese administration at Peking, whether or not recognised by Great Britain?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Acland): As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, a conference will shortly meet in India for the purpose of negotiating a settlement of the entire Tibetan question and of endeavouring to conclude a Convention on the subject between Great Britain, Tibet, and China. Until the results of this conference are known it would obviously be premature to come to any decision upon the points raised in the question.

  Most-Favoured-Nation Clause.
  Mr. HUNTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can say what are the foreign countries which do not give us the full benefit of the MostFavoured-Nation Clause?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): Apart from the special Customs treatment sometimes accorded to products of adjacent countries and the preferential arrangements in force between the United States and Cuba, all foreign countries give United Kingdom products complete most-favoured-nation treatment except Portugal, Brazil and Haiti, each of which gives special reductions of duty on a limited number of articles to certain countries, not including the United Kingdom.
  Mr. HUNT: Do not foreign Governments get out of allowing us the Most-Favoured-Nation Clause by various devices? Does not Russia put a heavier duty on seaborne coal than on that imported by land, and do not other nations get out of it by the minute subdivision of industries?
  Mr. ROBERTSON: If the hon. Member has any information we shall be glad to have it.
  Mr. HEWINS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the opinion expressed by the Foreign Secretary?
  Mr. ROBERTSON: I am not aware.

  South Africa (Strike of Miners).
  Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether on 6th June Lord Gladstone brought into operation the Transvaal Law 6 of 1894; and, if so, what were the circumstances at that date justifying this departure from the ordinary law?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): By a notice in the "Government Gazette" of 6th June, the resident magistrates of Boksburg, Germiston and Krugersdorp, were appointed to be for their respective districts the "local authority" under Section 5 of Law 6 of 1894, whose consent is required for public meetings. This notice does not, like that of 20th June, quoted by Lord Gladstone at page. 5 of Cd. 6942, actually prohibit any particular meeting, but I presume that the responsible Government of the country considered it necessary that the local magistrate should have this power in reserve.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the resident magistrate refused to put it into actual operation in consequence of there being no trouble there?
  Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked what notice was given that the meeting of miners called in Johannesburg market for 4th July had been prohibited; when the decision to prohibit the meeting was come to; and whether men attending the meeting were not aware it was prohibited until they arrived on the spot?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I have no official information beyond what has been published in the Blue Book.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the. date on which a handbill was issued calling upon the miners who were on strike on the Rand to come to a meeting fully armed to meet force by force; whether it applied to the meeting arranged to take place at Benoni on 28th June; whether it was issued after that meeting had been proclaimed; whether any similar handbill was issued for the Johannesburg meeting of 4th July; and, if not, will he contradict the statement that it was in consequence of this handbill that troops were employed to disperse the meeting?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I have no later information than what is given in Lord

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  Gladstone's telegram published at page 17 of Cd. 6941 and the Statement at page 5 of Cd. 6942. All these questions will, I presume, be investigated by the recently appointed Judicial Commission.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: As this handbill was issued before the meeting on 28th June, and as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition justified the use of the troops of 4th July on the assumption that this handbill had been issued for that meeting, will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that that misapprehension is removed?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I do not think I laboured under any misapprehension, as in my speech on the Colonial Office Vote I said that the handbill, whatever its date, was an indication of the circumstances with which the local Government had to deal.

  Liebig Company (Rhodesian Manager).
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLasked whether Mr. De Loessa, now the Rhodesian manager of the Liebig Company, was formerly one of the native Commissioners appointed by the Chartered Company; whether an inquiry was held into his conduct towards the natives by Judge Vincent; whether a Report of that inquiry was forwarded to the Colonial Office, and, if so, will this Report be circulated; whether the investigation by Judge Vincent of the conduct of Mr. De Loessa towards the natives took place before or after the grant of 1,200,000 acres of land in Rhodesia to the Liebig Company at the price of I s. per acre; did the Administrator consult his executive in accordance with the 1898 Order in Council before the making of this grant of land, and, if not, why was this not done; was a copy of the Minutes of the decision of the Executive sent to the Secretary of State as prescribed; and what reason, if any, having regard to his previous conduct, has the Colonial Office for believing that the eon-(Wet of Mr. De Loessa towards the natives will be just and humane?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I am not aware of the name of the Liebig Company's manager. An inquiry was held by Mr. Justice Vincent in 1907, into the conduct of a native Commissioner named H. de Laessa. This officer was suspended by the High Commissioner, who held that Mr. De Laessa's views on native administration made it impossible to continue him in
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  his office, though there was nothing against his personal character, and the suspension was confirmed by the Secretary of State. I do not propose, at this distance of time, to circulate the Report of Mr. Justice Vincent. The sale of the land did not come before me in the Minutes of the Executive Council, which are furnished to me regularly.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Mr. De Loessa, who is now managing director of this company and has great control over the natives, was expelled from his office as High Commissioner on account of his ill-treatment of the natives?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I do not know more than I have informed the hon. Member.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: Will the right hon. Gentleman try and get some information about this?

  Jamaica.
  Dr. CHAPPLEasked whether the Secretary for the Colonies has received any report concerning the investigation of the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine into the prevalence and spread of contagious disease in the island of Jamaica?
  Mr. HARCOURT: My hon. Friend no doubt refers to the investigation of "vomiting sickness." I have not yet received a report upon it, but I expect to do so soon.
  Dr. CHAPPLEasked the Secretary for the Colonies whether he will call for a report from the Governor of Jamaica on the system of medical service on the island, with a view to its reorganisation in order to meet the pressing needs of the population?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The information at my disposal indicates that the medical service of Jamaica is as good as financial exigencies permit, and that every attention is being paid to its improvement. In these circumstances I should not feel justified in calling for a detailed report, but I will invite the Governor to say whether he considers that there are any serious grounds for dissatisfaction with the present system.
  Dr. CHAPPLEasked what. is the number of hospital beds in the Island of Jamaica; how many are proportioned to indentured coolies; to how many estates

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  these coolies are attached; and what is the proportion of hospital beds to the total population?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The total provision of hospital beds in the Colony, so far as can be ascertained, amounts to 1,504, of which 207 are in the coolie wards of the various hospitals; the total population of the island, according to the Census taken in 1911, is 831,383 persons; there are about seventy estates employing indentured labourers.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: Are the natives not now excluded from the hospital? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be possible to so increase the hospital accommodation and improve the treatment of the natives that their efficiency as workers would be increased and they would, eventually, be fitted to take the place and do the work of indentured coolies to a greater extent than they at present do?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I cannot answer that in detail, but I should hardly think, as there are 207 beds in the coolie wards as against 1,504 for the whole of the Island of Jamaica, that the assumption is justified.
  Dr. CHAPPLEasked the Secretary for the Colonies whether he will take steps to provide that increased facilities are given to ordinary medical practitioners in the Island of Jamaica for visiting the hospitals and for rendering such service as wil enable them more effectively to cope with the increasing mass of contagious and other diseases?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I will ask the Governor to consider whether increased facilities are required.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    DREGHORN ESTATE (PURCHASE).
    Mr. JAMES HOGGEasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now give the extent of the Dreghorn estate purchased by the War Office, and the price paid for the same?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Tennant): I have nothing at present to add to the reply given to a question on this subject put by my hon. Friend on the 2nd July.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it not the fact that the estate has been purchased?
    Mr.TENNANT: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. HOGGE: Why is it that the House of Commons cannot get the figure which has been paid for it?
    Mr. TENNANT: Because it is not considered desirable or in the public interest to publish it.
    Mr. HOGGE: What are the public-interests that will be injured by giving the figures?
    Mr. TENNANT: It may be deemed desirable to purchase other land in the immediate vicinity at a near date.
    Mr. WATT: Does the War Office know the extent of the purchase?
    Mr. MORTON: Would it not be advisable for the hon. Gentleman to give the House full particulars? We have a right to them, as we have to pay for the estate.
    Mr. TENNANT: There is no scandal attaching to this question. I have asked my hon. Friends to accept my assurance that the purchase has been carried out in a very businesslike manner.

    ARMY ORDNANCE WORKSIIOPS (DEVONPORT).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Secretary for War whether he is aware that, following on the inspection by the Inspector of Army Ordnance Services of the Army Ordnance workshops at Devon-port, a notice has been posted requiring all men employed in the workshops to work with their coats off; that this order is being interpreted to mean that men must work in their shirt sleeves and not wear their own working jackets; that this interpretation is causing friction; and will he say whether it is the intention of the War Department to supply suitable clothing to the men when working in exposed positions when painting or doing similar kind of work?
    Mr. BAKER: There is no information on this subject at the War Office, but inquiry will be made, and the hon. Gentleman will be informed of the result in due course.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this Order has been posted in the workshops? Do the War Office know anything about it?
    Mr. BAKER: Possibly it is a local Order. I will make inquiry.

    CLOTHING CONTRACTS.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the Secretary for War if Messrs. Colbeck Brothers, of Alverthorpe, Wakefield, contractors to the War Office for clothing, are not paying the standard rate agreed to by the West Yorkshire Federation of Employers; and, if so, if he intends taking any action against the firm to make them pay the proper rate?
    Mr. BAKER: This firm has War Office contracts for woollen and worsted materials, but no representation has been received as to the wages paid. If the hon. Member will furnish full particulars of the rates claimed as standard rates, the rates objected to and the classes concerned, I will give careful consideration to them.

  China (Opium Imports).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House before it rises for the Recess any information regarding the disposal of the stocks of opium imported into China by British and British-Indian merchants, which remain unsold owing to the refusal or omission of the Chinese authorities to carry out their engagements with the British and British-Indian Administrations; whether there is any reason to suppose that his expectation of the speedy absorption of such stocks will be realised; whether he will explain how such expectation can be justified, in view of the extensive cultivations reported in the last official Reports from the opium-growing provinces; whether sufficient evidence is now on record to show that Chinese provinces have been prematurely closed to Indian opium, for which native Chinese opium is substituted; what guarantee His Majesty's Government and the Government of India have that this is not the real policy of the Chinese Government, and that the sacrifice of Indian revenue is not being made in vain; and what representations, if any, have been made by His Majesty's Government to the Chinese Government, in order -to make it clear that the shooting, burning, and looting of opium-cultivators and their homes must not be regarded as such an enforcement of a joint policy as public opinion in Britain can approve?
  Mr. ACLAND: The opium in question is passing steadily into provinces which have not yet been closed to the import of opium, and there seems reason to expect that the whole will ultimately be absorbed,
  2490
  though within what period may be uncertain. There is still an effective demand in China for Indian opium, as there was when the cultivation of poppy in that country was more extensive than at present. In two or three of the provinces closed to Indian opium under the agreement there has been some recrudescence of poppy growing, but on a diminished scale. His Majesty's Government have no reason to suppose that the Chinese Government are not in earnest in their endeavours to suppress poppy cultivation. As regards the last part of the hon. Member's question, I may refer him to the reply given in this House on the 15th July.

  Finance Act, 1910 (Increase of Clubs).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has, and will communicate to the House, statistics showing to what extent the abolition of licensed houses, since the passing of the Finance Act of 1910, has been followed by a corresponding increase in the number -if clubs; what increase has occurred in respect of clubs since the passing of that Act; and how it compares with the increase in this behalf of the preceding five years?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The hon. Member will find full information as to the rate of decrease in the number of licensed houses and increase in the number of registered clubs for each of the years 1903 to 1912 if he will refer to pages 3 and 4 of the Introduction to the Licensing Statistics for 1912 and the diagrams mentioned therein. These statistics will be presented to the House before it rises.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.

    SICKNESS AND MEDICAL BENEFIT.
    Sir JOHN JACKSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the provisions of the National Insurance Act place difficulties in the way of labourers engaged in the construction of public works; that these men, in pursuance of their employment, go from one job to another, and as a consequence few are able to obtain the sick and medical benefits for which they are compelled to subscribe; whether he will consider the advisability of an alteration either in the

    2491
    Act itself or in the regulations to meet the difficulty mentioned: and will he say what a man is to do when the nearest panel doctor is four or five miles away from the work under construction?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Masterman): Arrangements are being made whereby insured persons who are frequently moving from place to place in the course of their employment will be enabled to obtain medical benefit wherever they may happen to be in Great Britain.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men are not able to obtain the benefit?
    Mr. MASTER MAN: I have said arrangements are being made whereby they will be able to get it. They can obtain it now if they give notice, but we are trying to get rid of the necessity for giving notice.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: How can they get it if the panel doctor is forty-five miles away?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: They will get medical attendance from the nearest doctor available.

    BOARD OF WORKS CONTRACTS (GLASGOW).
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is now able to state what decision has been come to with regard to the desirability, in view of the incidence of the National Insurance Act, of varying the contracts made by certain firms in Glasgow with the Board of Works?
    Mr. MASTER MAN: I regret the delay which has occurred in this matter; but, as the arbitration to which I referred in my answer of 1st April last has not yet been concluded, it has been impossible to come to a decision.
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the arbitration is likely to be concluded within a reasonable period?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: I cannot say that. Immediately the arbitration is concluded
    I shall be prepared to consider the steps that may be taken.

    LABOUR EXCHANGES (NOTIFICATION TO TRADE SOCIETIES).
    Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he is aware that inconvenience is caused to the secretaries of trade societies that have made arrangements under Section 105 of Part II. of the National Insurance Act. owing to the delay of the Labour Exchange officials in notifying them when any of their members have registered at an exchange; and whether, with the object of the smooth working of the Act, he will request the managers of Labour Exchanges to notify the secretaries within seven days of a member registering himself as unemployed?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: Wherever an association making an arrangement under Section 105 so desires, provision is made for immediate notification by the Labour Exchange to the branch of the association of the names of all men who have lodged unemployment books and claimed benefit. I have not had any case of delay in the matter brought to my notice, but shall be glad to make inquiries if my hon. Friend will furnish me with any specific instances. In all cases a subsequent notification is sent of the amount of benefit, if any, which would appear to be payable in respect of any workman claiming through the association.

    WORKMEN'S PANELS.
    Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails among members of the workmen's panels in connection with Part II. of the National Insurance Act, regarding the different scales upon which they are paid, and the inquisition they have to undergo as to the time occupied in attending the meetings of the panels; whether he can see his way to pay a fixed fee for attendances at the meetings; and 'whether he can arrange for the fees and expenses being paid at the end of each meeting instead of at the end of three or four months, as at present?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: Service on these panels is regarded as voluntary and unpaid and the payments referred to are intended simply to reimburse the member for any reasonable expense and/or direct loss of earnings involved in such attendance. It is, therefore, in accordance with the general practice on this matter to

    2493
    graduate the payments in accordance with the time occupied and other circumstances. The actual scale of expenses is identical with that paid to members of Advisory Trade Committees under the Labour Exchanges Act. As regards the latter part of the question, the actual travelling expenses incurred are paid at the end of the meeting. Claims to subsistence and compensation for loss of time have to be supported by written claims which need closer examination and cannot, therefore, be paid immediately, but every effort is and will be made to avoid unnecessary delay in the matter, and if my hon. Friend will give me any instance of excessive delay, I shall be glad to have inquiries made into it.

  Educational Endowments.
  Mr. KINGasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the view approved in various ways from different quarters that noneducational ecclesiastical endowments with trusts of an obsolete nature should be diverted to educational and unsectarian purposes, and especially whether he has examined the provisions and effect of the Oxford University (St. Edmund Hall and Gatcombe Rectory) Act passed this Session, and the. Hulme Trust Estates Charity Dill now down for Second Reading; and whether, bearing in mind the difficulty and expense of passing separate Bills, private or public, to attain the ends now so generally approved, he will next Session, either in connection with a comprehensive Education Bill or otherwise, initiate legislation to facilitate the transfer of antiquated religious trusts, of whatever denomination, to educational purposes?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. J. A. Pease): The provisions of the Bills to which the hon. Member refers have been considered by my Department. I have, however, no authority to deal with non-educational ecclesiastical endowments, and I see no prospect of giving effect to the suggestion of the lion. Member by general legislation.
  Mr. KING: Will not the right hon. Gentleman try to get powers to deal with these endowments and so increase the sphere of his influence and the funds at his disposal?
  Mr. PEASE: I do not see much prospect of that,

  Llansannor Church School.
  Mr. BRIDGEMANasked if the rector of Llansannor has had to pay the salaries of the teachers at the Llansannor Church school out of his own pocket; and how long the Board is going to tolerate the action of the local education authority in refusing to pay these salaries when they are due?
  Mr. PEASE: Since I replied to a question in regard to this school on 31st July, the Board's architect has inspected the premises, and I gather from his Report that the managers have not completed the repairs which, in their letter of 4th December, 1912, they undertook to carry out before 9th March last as a condition of the continued recognition of the school. Although it appears to me that I have now no alternative but to strike the school off the Annual Grant List, I have sent a copy of the architect's Report to the managers and await their reply before taking further action. With regard to the salaries of the teachers, I understand that the payment of salaries has been withheld on account of an allegation of the local' education authority that the managers have failed to carry out their directions as to the appointment of a head teacher. I have asked the managers for their observations with regard to this allegation.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it is that the objections to this school was only discovered at this very late date? Why not before
  Mr. PEASE: Their attention has been repeatedly directed to the matter by the Board since the 14th May.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Have there beea no communications on the subject?
  Mr. PEASE: I believe the communications have been with reference to an understanding they committed themselves to in December last.

  Towyn Church School.
  Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Education if the present head teacher of Towyn Church school, having paid superannuation money for years, is allowed to continue his annual contributions while that school remains unrecognised by the Board; and if he will be entitled to the same superannuation benefit as he would if the school had been kept on the Grant list?
  Mr. PEASE: The answer to both questions is in the negative. The Towyn Church school is not recognised as a public elementary school, and service in that school is not "recorded service" for the purposes of the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898. Consequently no contributions to the Deferred Annuity Fund are payable in respect of such service.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Is it the view of the Board that not only the parents, who prefer this school to the county council school, but also the teachers are to be penalised in order to gratify the feelings of the local authority?
  Mr. PEASE: The school is not a recognised school, and, therefore, does not come within the purview of the Superannuation Act.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Are there not sixty children on the roll, and is the school to be allowed to go down rapidly owing to the action of the local authority, seeing that since the managers have had it in their hands, at least sixty children have been in average attendance?
  Mr. PEASE: I think the figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman do not really stand investigation. They have fluctuated and, at the present time, I do not think that there are sixty in attendance, and a -very large proportion of the children are under the age of five.

  Toltington Charity School.
  Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Education if in Toltington the Roman Catholic sisters of charity have conducted a school for six years, giving continuation classes which follow a curriculum recognised by the Board, and that 93 per cent. of the pupils -have passed the examinations of the Lan-cashire and Cheshire Institutes, and have received no Grant from the Board; and the distance to the nearest council continuation school?
  Mr. PEASE: The evening classes at the Toltington St. Philomena's Home, to which I assume the hon. Member refers, have never been on the Evening Schools' Grant List, and I have, therefore, had no occasion to recognise or not to recognise the curriculum. The classes form part of a residential institution, and I am not prepared, pending the settlement of revised regulations for Grants to evening schools,
  2496
  which I have now under consideration, to make evening school Grants to any new residential institution not already in receipt of Grants. I am unable to state without further inquiry the exact distance of the home from the nearest recognised evening school.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Do I understand that the question will be considered when the general question of continuation schools is under review?
  Mr. PEASE: Yes, Sir.

  Trefdraeth Church School.
  Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Education if, though the Trefdraeth Church school has been conducted by a master since 1857, a mistress has now been appointed by the Anglesey education authority against the wishes of the managers; why the education authority appoint masters in the council school in the same parish, although there is in that school a smaller roll and average attendance than in the Church school; and if it is the settled policy of that authority to appoint masters to council schools and mistresses to Church schools?
  Mr. PEASE: In this case a formal appeal has recently been made to the Board by the managers under Sub-section (3) of Section 7 of the Education Act, 1902. The Board have forwarded to the managers the reply of the local education authority to their appeal, and have invited the observations of the managers thereon with a view to the determination of the question at issue.

  Continuation Classes (Messrs. Rowntree's Factory).
  Mr. BRIDGEMANasked the President of the Board of Education whether any Grant is made to Messrs. Rowntree towards continuation classes held in connection with their factory; and, if so, for how long has it been made and what has been the amount in each year?
  Mr. PEASE: Grant is made to the local education authority for York in respect of schools carried on by Messrs. Rowntree for boys and girls in their employment, under the educational direction of the authority. The classes for girls have been on the Grant List since 1905, and the classes for boys since 1908. The latter have recently

  2497
  been greatly extended and improved at the suggestion of the Board. The Grants for the year 1911–12 for the boys' and girls' schools were £505 and £981, respectively. am sending the hon. Member a statement of the Grants paid in previous years.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what is the difference between the earning power of Roman Catholic schools and of Messrs. Rowntree's schools?
  Mr. PEASE:I do not understand where the Roman Catholic schools come in.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I mean the school mentioned in Question 38: Why is it that the managers of Roman Catholic schools do not enjoy continuation Grants, while Messrs. Rowntree do?
  Mr. PEASE: I should like to have notice of that question, so as to compare exactly the two cases. I have recently seen this institution at York, and am satisfied that excellent work is being done there. I hope that other firms will do similar work.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Does not the fact that 92 per cent. of the children at the Roman Catholic school have passed their examinations prove that they do excellent work, and quite as good work as that done at Messrs. Rowntree's school?
  Mr. PEASE: There is certainly no intention of making any preference.

  School Furniture Grants.
  Mr. BRIDGEMANhad given notice of the following question: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Board sanctioned the provision out of public money of furniture for a school erected in connection with the works of Messrs. Rowntree; and, if so, to what amount?
  I should like to say that the name of Messrs. Rowntree has been inserted in the question in mistake for that of Messrs. Cadbury.
  Mr. PEASE: I shall be glad to give the answer. As regards Messrs. Rowntree, it is in the negative.

  School Attendance.
  Mr. KINGasked the President of the Board of Education, in reference to Table 3 on page 13 of the Statistics of Public
  2498
  Education (Cd. 6934), whether he has observed that in the decennial period ending 1901 the population between three and fifteen years of age increased 3.28 per cent., and the scholars in attendance between three and fifteen years increased 17.71 per cent., but that in the decennial period ending 1911 the like child population increased 5.5 per cent., and the scholars in attendance only increased 2.9. per cent.; and whether any explanation can be given of this marked decline in the proportion of scholars attending schools to total child population?
  Mr. PEASE: The explanation of the decline in the rate of increase in the number of scholars on the registers of public elementary schools in the decennium ending 1911 as compared with that ending 1901 is to be found in the falling off of the number of children under five years of age who are on the school registers. This falling off has already been the subject of comment in the Reports issued by the Board. In the decennium it amounts to a decrease of over 45 per cent.; the children aged between five and fifteen who are on the registers have in the same period increased by more than 8 per cent.; hence the figure of 2.9 per cent. total increase mentioned in the question.
  Mr. KING: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that on the Estimates he gave a totally different explanation, namely, that the falling off was due to the declining birth-rate, and do not my figures show that I was quite right in my contention?
  Mr. PEASE: I think I could give the hon. Gentleman an explanation. I shall be very glad to send him one.

  Manchester Ship Canal (Customs and Excise Officers).
  Mr. GEORGE HAMILTONasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether officers of Customs and Excise at the port of Manchester, when paying overtime visits on Sundays and public holidays, recorded in the appearance book what they believed to be the time allowed for the visit under a special Board's order, in accordance with the practice of the port; that this record was certified by the surveyor and collector, but, upon the records being questioned by the Controller-General, alterations were made excluding the time travelling between the depot and the ship, and the certificate given by the surveyor

  2499
  was time at ship's side; and, if so, and as the wharves in question are situated from two to four miles from the depot and half an hour is not enough allowance for such distances, will he instruct the correct officials to allow overtime payment from the time of signing on to the time of signing off, in accordance with established custom and regulations?
  Mr. MASTERMAN: The answer to the first part of the question is that the officers recorded as attendance the fixed period of time formerly allowed for a visit, although the new Regulations in General Order 54j1912, of which they were well aware, distinctly stated that the actual period of necessary attendance only was allowable. As regards the remaining parts of the question, I must refer tha hon. Member to my reply to the questions addressed to me by the hon. and gallant Member for Montgomery District on the 12th and 4th inst. on this subject.

  Old Age Pensions.
  Sir C. K I N LOCH-COOKEasked the President of the Local Government Board whether when an old age pensioner who is not able-bodied is admitted to the workhouse for medical or other care and assistance that pensioner is disqualified for pension and, if so, will he consider the advisability of allowing the guardians to appropriate the whole or such portion of the pension as may be required for that cost and attendance?
  Mr. MASTERMAN: I fear I am not prepared to promote the legislation which would be necessary to make the change suggested by the hon. Member.

  Tralee and Dingle Mail Service.
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked the Postmaster-General whether he proposes to alter the mail service which has been in operation from Tralee to Dingle for now nearly a quarter of a century, and instead of two services per day, as given heretofore, to substitute one service per day; whether, before he proposed this alteration, he considered the inconvenience and injury that would be caused to trade, and more especially to fishing, which in the Dingle district is the most extensive of any in Ireland; and whether he can furnish another instance of cutting down by more than one-half a service which has been in existence so long?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): The alterations are due to the fact that the Tralee and Dingle Railway gave notice to terminate their contract. I propose to continue to provide a second delivery of letters at Dingle and a second dispatch therefrom so long as trains are run between Tralee and Dingle at such hours that they can be used for the conveyance of a day mail bag in each direction.

  Betting Inducements Bill.
  Mr. J. HOGGEasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that Lord Newton's Betting Inducements Bill has been passed twice through the House of Lords and has been starred once by the Government; whether a Bill has been printed in the name of Lord Loreburn dealing with coupons in newspapers; whether another Bill has been introduced into this House dealing with ready-money football betting; and whether, in view of these indications of a desire in both Houses of Parliament to deal with the evil of betting, he can give any indication as to the intentions of the Government to deal with the matter, either by legislation or by speeding up the administration of the existing law?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): The question of legislation with regard to this matter will continue to receive the serious attention of the Government. The authorities are fully alive to the necessity for enforcing the existing law, and in this connection I would refer to the reply given by the Home Secretary to my hon. Friend on 4th August last.
  Mr. LYNCH: Will the right hon. Gentleman take notice that the opponents of this measure may be actuated by motives quite as enlightened as those who think that public morality may be summed up in a series of grandmotherly "don'ts"?

  Education Bill.
  Mr. LEACHasked the Prime Minister (1) if the Patronage Secretary to the. Treasury was speaking on behalf of and with the authority of the Government when addressing a meeting on the education question at Shipley, on Saturday, 3rd May, in saying that it was a scandalous humiliation that scores of good men, the best men in the land, through the inequality and the injustice of the present law" should have been compelled

  2501
  to passively resist, that of that fact the Government was deeply conscious, and that he was able to say to Nonconformists that in any Education Bill introduced by the Government the first consideration would be the removal of this grievance; and (2) when the Government intends to remove the inequality of the Education Act of 1902, under which persons who elected the Government to power have suffered imprisonment, the spoiling of their goods, and the insults of some magistrates; and is he aware that, though five Education Bills have been introduced into the House of Commons and four Members of the Government have occupied the position of President of the Board of Education since lie and his colleagues pledged themselves to remove these grievances, their pledges are still unfulfilled?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Government are fully aware of the importance of this matter, and my hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, in the speech to which the hon. Member refers, expressed generally our views with regard to it. The Government intend to introduce next Session proposals to deal with this grievance, which will, I trust, prove satisfactory, but I am not prepared to anticipate them at present.

  Dependants of Mr. Cody.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the services rendered to aviation in this country by the late Mr. Cody, it is proposed to make any provision for his dependants?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am inquiring into this matter, but cannot say anything definite at present.

  Motor Vehicles (Metropolis).
  Mr. CASSELasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience and annoyance caused to the public in the Metropolis by trailers drawn by motors or locomotives like goods trains proceeding through the streets; whether he has powers to make regulations on the matter; if so, whether such powers have been exercised; whether such regulations have been enforced; whether further statutory powers are required; and, if so, whether he proposes to introduce legislation?
  The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Burns): My attention has been called to this matter. A heavy motor car cannot legally be used to draw more than one trailer, and a heavy locomotive or traction engine is, by Section 3 of the Locomotives Act, 1898, prohibited from drawing more than three loaded wagons (exclusive of any wagon solely used for carrying water for the locomotive). As regards unloaded wagons, the London County Council and the Common Council of the City of London have made by-laws under Section 6 of the Act referred to which limit to three (exclusive of the water cart) the number of such wagons, except with the permission of the council. I am not aware that these requirements are not enforced, and I am not in a position to promise legislation on the subject at the present time, but any proposal to amend the by-laws so as to reduce the number of unloaded wagons which may be drawn together with loaded wagons would receive my consideration.

  Prepaid Return Postage Coupons.
  Mr. MORTONasked the Postmaster-General whether he will issue prepaid return postage coupons of the value of ld., as those of the value of 2½d. are useless for sending to the United States of America or other countries where there is 1d. postage with this country; and whether he can say why 3d. is charged for the 2½d. coupon?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The question of introducing reply coupons of the face value of ld. has been considered more than once. There is no great demand even for the existing 21cl. coupons, and the inducement to use coupons for ld. would be substantially less. Reply postcards furnish an easy means of prepaying a reply from the United States of America and other places included in the penny postage scheme. In consequence of the differences in currency which exist in the various countries of the Postal Union, and in order to prevent speculative dealings with coupons in those countries where the rate of exchange is favourable, the minimum selling price of the 2½d. coupon was fixed by the Postal Union Convention at 28 centimes (gold), the nearest sterling equivalent of which is 3d. For a similar reason the proposed ld. coupons could not be sold to the public at less than rid., a fact which would still further restrict their use. I do not consider that there is sufficient reason for the issue of such coupons.
  Mr. KING: Will the right- hon. Gentleman consider the sale of these 2½d. stamps at a reduced rate, so as to bring the price of issue nearer to 25 centimes?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I should he very glad to consider the suggestion.

  Porthcawl (Removal of Gravel).
  Mr. BRACEasked the President of the Board of Trade if his inspectors have conducted an inquiry into the taking of gravel from the beach at Porthcawl; if, since the question was brought to the attention of his Department, 8,000 tons of gravel have been taken by a trading company from the Porthcawl beach; when the Report from the Board of Trade may be expected upon this subject; if it is the intention of the Board to prevent this damage to Porthcawl as a seaside resort being continued; and, if not, will he say why this is not to be done?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton): Yes, Sir, an inquiry has taken place, and the report of the officer who held it is now receiving my most careful consideration. The removal of gravel is on a large scale—about 600 or 700 tons weekly—but, as was explained yesterday in answer to a question by the Noble Lord the Member for Cardiff, this removal takes place on private property above the line of high water. I will send a further communication to my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so. Meanwhile, if my hon. Friend cares to call at the Board of Trade, the solicitor will be glad to explain the position further to him.

  San Francisco Exhibition.
  Mr. GIBBSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in regard to the Panama Exhibition at San Francisco, if the conditions of foreign participation are altered by the authorities in the direction of securing for the United Kingdom a single collective national exhibit, he will reconsider his decision not to give his official support to the exhibition?
  Mr. ACLAND: As I pointed out yesterday, the fact that national exhibits are to be scattered in different buildings and not shown together as a collective national exhibit is only one of the reasons which appeared to make participation inexpedient. I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my remarks of yesterday in Debate, and to the answer of my right hon. Friend
  2504
  as reported in the Parliamentary Debates of the 5th instant, which fully explain the commercial and economic reasons which induced His Majesty's Government to come to the decision they did. The circumstances do not appear to have altered since then.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNORasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any correspondence has passed between him and the promoters of the San Francisco Exhibition as to the representation of Great Britain, its manufactures, and arts and crafts at the same; and, if so, will he publish such before the rising of the House?
  Mr. BUXTON: Beyond the transmission of documents and a letter on the subject of the protection of unpatented inventions and designs no correspondence has taken place between myself and the promoters of the San Francisco Exhibition. In May, 1912, a special Commission, presided over by Mr. John Hays Hammond, visited London to expain the scope of the exhibition, and the further information which the Board of Trade required as to the conditions upon which foreign nations were invited to participate was obtained in San Francisco by an officer of the Exhibitions Branch of the Board of Trade sent for that purpose from this country.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: Was it in the right hon. Gentleman's Department. that the estimate of £250,000 as the probable cost of a British section was arrived at?
  Mr. BUXTON: An officer of the Department went out there to inquire on the spot in regard to the question of expenditure, and' came to the conclusion, after careful consideration, that to make anything in the nature of an effective exhibit —and unless effective it would be useless —the cost would be at least £250,000.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: Had this officer any experience of either the Chicago or the St. Louis Exposition, and was he aware that at Chicago the British section was run at a cost of £00,000?
  Mr. BUXTON: He made the best inquiries he could, and that was the cone elusion he came to, and on examination of the figures I think he was probably correct.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: In forming this estimate was consideration given to the fact

  2505
  that the canal would be opened quite a year before the exhibition is opened, and that all goods would be sent by water transit?
  Mr. BUXTON: I think that was taken into consideration.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: Has the matter gone so far that it could not be remedied, and that these exhibits might be collected all under one building, as in other expositions, and can he say whether this decision on the part. of a Free Trade Government not to take part in this exposition is a proper return to make to the United States for reduction in its tariffs
  Mr. ACLAND: I can only say that the regulation in regard to the scattering of the exhibits seems to be perfectly in accordance with the regulations of the exhibition authorities, and that it is only one of the reasons which induced the Government to think that the very large expenditure of £250,000 would not be justified. With regard to the last part of the question, the tariff is not yet reduced.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the German Union of Merchants is changing its mind upon the matter and has come round to the view that Germany should be represented, and if in that case it would not be necessary for us to further our own trade and commerce by being represented there?
  Mr. ACLAND: I do not think that even that fact will induce the Government to go back on their decision that it is not justifiable to expend £250,000, which is two and a half times greater than that which the Congress of the United States is going to expend.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: How is that sum made up? Have they taken into consideration land transport or sea', transport?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member should give notice of that question.

  Sentence for Assault (Maidstone).
  Mr. W. THORNEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a man by the name of Sibley was sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment last December at the Maidstone Assizes for slightly tapping a knobstick on the nose of a man who was working at Cory's coal firm at Erith; and whether, in view of Sibley's character and
  2506
  of the fact that he has never been imprisoned before, he can see his way to grant the prisoner an unconditional release?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers may I ask if he accepts the statement in the question that the offence was that of simply tapping a knob-stick on the nose of a man?
  Mr. McKEN NA: As the reply will show, I have not accepted that view. I have had full reports of this case before me. The assault of which Sibley was guilty was a most serious one—he led several companions in an attack on a defenceless man —and he was convicted of causing grievous bodily harm. I have consulted the judge and I have carefully considered all the circumstances, including the prisoner's previous good character, but I regret that I can find no sufficient ground to justify any reduction of the sentence beyond the remission which the prisoner is entitled to earn under the prison rules.
  Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the evidence was not disputed at the time and that the hon. Member (Mr. Rowlands) and I were in communication with the right hon. Gentleman, trying to get the sentence reduced, and that the judge who tried the case is known by organised labour as one of the most brutal judges we have ever had?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to make such statements as that, especially at Question Time. If he has any charge to bring against any of His Majesty's judges the proper way of doing it is to put a notice on the Paper.
  Mr. W. THORNE: I understand that if a notice is put down on the Order Paper to impugn the action of a judge it is ruled out of order by the Clerks at the Table.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Nothing of the sort. The hon. Member can bring it to me.

  Suffragist Prisoners.
  Mr. CHANCELLORasked whether the release of prisoners under the Prisoners (Temporary Discharge for Ill-health) Act depends entirely on the doctors',report; whether the length of licences is determined wholly or in part by the doctors; or, if not, on whose authority do these decisions rest?
  Mr. McKENNA: The decision whether the prisoner is to be released and for how long rests entirely with the Home Secretary. I receive reports from the medical officers of the prisons and give due weight to them, and in some cases I have given a limited discretion to the governor as to the time of discharge, but in all cases the decision rests with me.

  Prison Doctors (Salaries).
  Mr. CHANCELLORasked whether the salaries of the prison doctors at Holloway have recently been raised; and, if so, whether this is in consequence of duties involved in the treatment of suffragette prisoners?
  Mr. McKENNA: The scale of pay of the deputy medical officers at Holloway Prison has, in common with those of all other whole-time medical officers and deputy medical officers throughout the prison service, lately been improved, but this improvement was on general grounds, and had no connection with the treatment of suffragette prisoners.

  Mr. George Lansbury (Imprisonment).
  Mr. WILLIAM THORNEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a mass meeting was held in Trafalgar Square, on Sunday afternoon, 10th August, to demand the unconditional release of George Lansbury, Mrs. Cohen, and others; if he is aware that the meeting passed a resolution of protest against magistrates having power to send to prison persons who may express views which they or the Government do not approve; and if he can see his way to grant an unconditional release of Mr. Lansbury and Mrs. Cohen, who were prosecuted and imprisoned under an Act 550 years old?
  Mr. McKENNA: I have received from the hon. Member a copy of the resolution passed by the meeting in Trafalgar Square last Sunday. So far as the resolution "protests against magistrates having power to send to prison persons who may express views of which they or the Government do not approve," I cordially agree with the view expressed by the meeting and should be ready at all times to support and to enforce it. There is no such power under English law; and if, while I hold the office of Home Secretary, it should be shown to me that any person has been sent to prison merely because he expressed
  2508
  views of which the magistrate or the Government do not approve, I shall have no hesitation in advising his immediate release. As I explained last night, Mr. Lansbury was required to find sureties, not on account of the views which he expressed, but because; he used words which incited to disorder and crime. Among other things, it was proved before the magistrate that, speaking at Albert Hall of the militant women who have been guilty of arson and other outrages, he said, "I ask all of us here to stand shoulder to shoulder with them; let them burn and destroy property and do anything they will, and for every leader that is taken let a dozen step forward in her place." There can be no question that this language was a direct and effective incitement to crime; but as I said last night, I am perfectly willing to believe that Mr. Lansbury does not intend in future to be guilty of such criminal incitement., and, if I receive an assurance from him to this effect, I shall be very glad to consider favourably the question of remitting the remainder of his sentence. Mrs. Cohen is not in prison, and her case has not come in any way before me.
  Mr. W. THORNE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks the language used by Mr. Lansbury was any stronger than that used by the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Sir Edward Carson) and the hon. and learned Member for the Walton Division of Liverpool (Mr. F. E. Smith)?
  Mr. McKENNA: I must have notice of that question.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the magistrates are the sole judges whether the words used may be an incitement to disorder or not, and whether it is fair to leave in the hands of a bench of country magistrates power to decide whether the words used by a strike agitator are, or are not, an incitement to crime?
  Mr. McKENNA: My hon. Friend is going into a much larger question here, and I cannot undertake to reply without notice as to general jurisdiction of the magistrates in the country.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this power which is exercised by the magistrates arises out of common law, and not out of Statute law?
  Mr. McKENNA: I do not think it would really be advisable to enter into an argument, and I hope my hon. Friend will not misinterpret what I say when I state that I do not think he has correctly interpreted the law.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the power of binding to the peace which is exercised by the magistrates is judge-made law and not statutory
  Mr. McKENNA: Oh, no, I am aware of the contrary.

  Women Suffrage Pilgrimage (Alleged Assaults on Women).
  Lord ROBERT CECILasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether his attention has been called to certain serious assaults committed upon women at St. Neot's, Stafford, Tiverton, and Cirencester, during suffragist meetings in connection with the suffrage pilgrimage; whether any arrests have been made or prosecutions instituted by the Public Prosecutor; and whether the Government propose to take any steps to investigate these occurrences; and (2) whether he is aware that at St. Neot's, Stafford, Tiverton, and Cirencester, nonmilitant women suffragists were pelted and otherwise assaulted by roughs, who were endeavouring to break up peaceful meetings held during the recent suffrage pilgrimage; whether he is further aware that no arrests have been made in connection with these offences; and whether he will take steps to secure to all subjects of His Majesty the right of free speech?
  Mr. McKENNA: I received about a fortnight ago a deputation from representatives of the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies who organised and conducted the suffrage pilgrimage. They put before me with great moderation their complaint that at some of the places where they held meetings the police failed to give them adequate protection, with the result that their meetings were broken up. I explained to them that the County and Borough Police are not under my control—there was no complaint against the Metropolitan Police—but I undertook that, if they gave me a precise statement in writing of their specific complaints with regard to each place, I would communicate in the matter with the several police authorities. This document I have received this morning, and it appears to
  2510
  be a moderate and fair statement of the facts, though, of course, before pronouncing any opinion, I am bound to hear what the police authorities concerned have to say on their own behalf. The statement shows that in most places the police gave the pilgrims ample protection, and that in some other places they failed only because their numbers were insufficient. I shall at once communicate, as I promised to do, to the several police authorities, and I shall not leave any of them in doubt as to their duty to protect men or women who are holding peaceful meetings for a lawful purpose.
  Mr. J. WARD: Will the right hon. Gentleman make that request to the police authorities generally? After all, it is most essential that those who wish to advocate a cause peacefully should be protected.
  Mr. McKENNA: I think that is precisely the answer I have given.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Has the right hon. Gentleman any power to enforce his wish on the provincial police?
  Mr. McKENNA: No, Sir; bat I am happy to say that the provincial police attend to wise advice when it is given.

  Delhi.
  Mr. KINGasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the pledge given by himself on the 30th July, 1912, that efforts would be made by competition to obtain a wide field of selection of architects for the New Delhi; whether the policy then announced has been dropped by the Government of India; and, if so, what ground can be given for the change?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by me to a question of his on 22nd July. The Government of India contemplate adopting the plan of competition for buildings other than those which have already been allotted to the selected architects.

  Indian Students.
  Sir J. D. REESasked whether the members of the Committee for the supervision of Indian students receive any pay or emoluments; and what is the total cost to the Indian taxpayer of this organisation?
  Mr. MONTAGU: The answer to the first question is in the negative. The only charge to Indian revenues on account of the Advisory Committee is a sum of £20 a year as honorarium to its clerk.

  Indian Tea (Import into Tibet).
  Sir J. D. REESasked what arrangements, if any, have been made by the Government of India for ensuring a fair field for Indian tea in Tibet, into which country upwards of 20,000,000 lbs. of China tea are annually forced from China, the Tibetan policy of which country being based to no small degree on the maintenance of the tea trade between it and China; and whether the present favourable opportunity will be taken for encouraging British trade across the Tibetan borders?
  Mr. MONTAGU: The conditions governing the import of Indian tea into Tibet were explained in the reply given to the hon. Member's question of the 13th March last. The matter has not been lost sight of, but I am unable to say what action, if any, it may be found practicable to take.

  Sitapur Murder Case.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLasked whether he is aware that, for the same offence for which Chutkan Singh, Sikhdar Singh, and Ganga Singh were tried by Mr. Bell, the Sessions judge of Sitapur, and acquitted and were, five months after their acquittal, retried by the Judicial 'Commissioners and convicted, Chutkan Singh and Sikhdar Singh being sentenced to death and executed on the 9th September, 1912, the Lieutenant-Governor, Sir John Hewett, having refused to forward to the Indian Government their appeal for mercy to the Indian Government, yet another man was tried by another Sessions judge on exactly the same evidence as was offered in the case of the Singhus, convicted by him, and sentenced, not to death, but to imprisonment, and that this man's appeal to the Judicial Commissioners, one of whom had retried the Singhus, resulted in an acquittal; and why was not this circumstance, which tends to throw additional doubt on the guilt of the Singhus and to show that the Government of India would have favourably entertained their petition for mercy if it had not been withheld by Sir John Hewett, communicated to the House of Commons in the history of this transaction furnished by the India Office to- this House?
  Mr. MONTAGU: I have no information as to the reported trial of a fourth person, but if my hon. Friend will inform me on what he bases hip statement, I will inquire.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: I will give the hon. Gentleman the information this afternoon.

SOMALILAND: ATTACK ON CAMEL CORPS.
Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the Colonial Secretary if he has any further information in regard to Somaliland?
Mr. HARCOURT: Yes, I have received two telegrams this morning. The first is, from the Acting Administrator at Berbera:—
"August 12, Berbera.—Three hundred troops arrived this morning from Aden. At Berbera all is quiet.— POWELL."
The second telegram is as follows:—
"August 12, Sheikh.—I have withdrawn from Burao in good order, and arrived at Sheikh with all wounded (twenty-two altogether), Government stores and rations.
Burao traders and others were given twenty-four hours' notice to quit before the main party left.
The Indian contingent, 130 strong, with one officer and Maxim and stores, arrived here at mid-day. In addition I have twenty men with me here. I will decide later, in consultation with Summers and Kingdon, whether it is necessary to order one of the companies on their arrival from Aden to strengthen this fort.
Sheikh Fort is in good repair. Signalling communication will be established as soon as possible with Berbera. The senior medical officer is on the spot.
Summers is progressing favourably, and is in no danger.
The Dervishes have driven off practically all the stock of the following tribes: Habr Yunis, Musa Ismail, Dolvahanta, Barkat, Rer Haggar, and Khalid, Habr Togudla, and Rer Yusuf. This must inevitably cause almost unprecedented destitution among the Friendlies.
The situation generally, however, is well in hand, and there is no cause for alarm or any further emergency measures.—ARCHER."
Mr. DILLON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can give the House an assurance that there will be no forward movement of the punitive expedition until the House has an opportunity of discussing this matter?
Mr. HARCOURT: It is contrary to the whole policy of the British Government to do more than occupy the coast and a small radius from the coast of Somaliland.
Mr. D I LLON: How, then, did the Camel Corps come to be a hundred miles from the coast?
Mr. HARCOURT: I am totally unable to say why the Corps was at Idoweina until I get further information.
Colonel YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the necessary steps to protect the Friendlies who have come to our assistance?
Mr. HARCOURT: Yes; all necessary steps will be taken.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the Prime Minister what business will be taken to-night after the first and second Orders?
  The PRIME MINISTER: We will consider the House of Lords Amendments to the various Bills on the Paper. Then we will take the Committee stage of the seven Charity Bills, and also the Bishoprics Bi11, which I hope will not take an undue time.
  Mr. KING: In reference to the Bishoprics Bill, the Second Reading was taken yesterday, though no announcement was made that it would be taken, and as it raised matters of very serious principle, and no opportunity was afforded to us of putting down Amendments, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, when it is reached, he will instruct somebody on the Government Benches to move to report Progress at once?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No. I am very anxious that this Bill should go through. I think it is a Bill which is not going to excite any contention. With regard to what happened last night, I announced that the other Bill was going to be taken. In the course of the evening communications were made on both sides that both Charity Bills would be taken later on. I may point out that this Bishoprics Bill is not general; it deals with only three particular cases in regard to which the money has already been subscribed or found. The only object of the Bill is to enable the persons who have subscribed the money to apply it to the purposes for which it was intended. There is no question of principle whatever involved. I hope that the hon. Member will not press his opposition. There are no fewer than sixteen of these Charity Bills; eleven are on the Paper to-day.
  Mr. KING: Can we be sure that these sixteen Charity Bills, some of which have not yet been introduced, will actually all pass this Session?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Eleven of them will.
  Mr. KING: Some of those are not printed.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Yes; they are all printed.
  Mr. C. BATH URST: When do you propose to take the Development and Roads Improvements Bill?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would rather not answer just now.

BILLS PRESENTED.
  SHERIFFS SUBSTITUTE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To amend the method of appointing Sheriffs Substitute in Scotland and to fix an age limit for their retirement." Presented by Mr. WATT; supported by Mr. Morton, Captain Waring, Mr. Martin, Mr. Godfrey Collins, and Mr. Holmes; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 330.]
  OLD SLEATORD (LINCOLNSHIRE) CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
  "To confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the charity consisting of the Protestant Dissenting chapel, otherwise Providence Baptist Chapel, in the parish of Old Sleaford, in the county of Lincoln." Presented by Mr. CHARLES ALLEN; to. be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 314.]
  COOMBE STREET (EXETER) INDEPENDENT CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
  "To confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the charity consisting of the Independent chapel, in Coombe Street, in the Parish of St. Mary Major, in the city of Exeter." Presented by Mr. CHARLES ALLEN; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 325.]
  HORSFORTH (WENT RIDING) BAPTIST CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
  "To confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the charities consisting of the Baptist chapel, burial ground, Sunday schools, and trust property at Horsforth, in the West Riding of the county of York." Presented by Mr. CHARLES ALLEN; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 326.]

  MARDEN (KENT) CONGREGATIONAL CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
  "To confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the charity consisting of the

  2531
  Congregational chapel, manse, and trust property in the parish of Marden, in the county of Kent." Presented by Mr. CHARLES ALLEN; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 327.]

  FOLESHILL ROAD (COVENTRY) CONGREGATIONAL CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
  "To confirm a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the application or management of the charity consisting of the Congregational chapel and trust property in Foleshill Road, in the city of Coventry." Presented by Mr. CHARLES ALLEN; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 328.]

FINANCE BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not propose, and I do not think it would be actually in accordance with the convenience of the House if I attempted to make any lengthy review of our financial situation on this occasion, or at this period of the Session, but I rise to record a protest against the general conduct of the financial business of the Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, on more than one occasion in the course of our recent Debates, that the House this year had unusual opportunities of discussing finance. I confess that I am wholly at a loss to know what he means thereby. He has not submitted to the House any calculation of the number of days occupied in such discussion. I have not attempted to make it out, and I cannot call to mind the exact number of days which on one occasion or another have been devoted to finance, but what I do think will be in the minds of all the House, and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, is that the real opportunities for the House to consider, and if it desires to make amendments in our financial law, have not occurred until the very close of
the Session. So late in the year have such opportunities occurred that the moment any differences have arisen in the House itself, even though they were not on ordinary party lines, and did not divide the House at all, one of the great financial measures had to be dropped, and the other has to go through without any attempt at any adequate or useful exami-
2532
nation of our national position. are accustomed under the present Government to the deferment of the Finance Bill of the year to the very latest stages of the Session. and this has often been prolonged into the autumn and the winter. This has meant not merely that we have taken the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, as we are doing to-day, in the month of August, but that we have dealt with it as late as December, or even, I think, in the early months of the next year. Ten years ago such a procedure on the part of the Government would have been regarded in all quarters of the House as an outrage, and by no one would it have been denounced more strongly than by the Gentlemen who now sit on that bench, and the party who support them. Yet that has not been due to any accident of their tenure of office, but it is their constant practice, and this year, when our legislative programme consists chiefly of twice-chewed meals, passed under the swiftest and severest application of the Closure that has even been known in this House, and when no new great contentious measure has occupied our time, the Government could not take the Committee stage of this and the other financial measure into which they divided their Budget until the last week but one of the Session.
4.0 P.M.
To complete the picture, I must remind the House that under the legislation carried by this Government, this House has now not merely a special control and interest in, but it has the undivided power over all moneys. This House deprived the other House of any voice in this legislation, and is now deprived itself of any effective power to make its feelings known or convert them into action. That is a grave constitutional innovation; that is a change so obviously for the convenience of any Government that a precedent of this kind once set is likely to be constantly appealed to to justify similar actions in the future, and the House, which then thought that it was asserting its own unquestioned right and unquestionable right over the whole realm of finance, now finds itself more restricted within the sphere of finance than it has ever been in her whole Parliamentary history. The right hon. Gentleman and the Government have never dealt frankly with the House on this question. They have never laid all their cards upon the table. They have let us see their hand little by

2533
little, but not a hint of all these things was given at the time the Parliament Act was passed. When, owing to the interposition of Mr. Bowles, the practice which the Government had abused, and grossly abused, of collecting revenue without legislative sanction, was checked, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer found himself in consequence forced to produce the Collection of Taxes Bill, not a hint was given, until we had parted with the control of that Bill, of the procedure which he must have already contemplated as that which he would adopt in the present Session. It was not until the House of Commons had parted with those Bills in succession that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it necessary to inform us that, as a consequence of what had happened, he proposed to divide what we have been accustomed, in my Parliamentary experience, to know as the Budget into two—to take in the Finance Bill only. the renewal of annual taxes or the introduction of new ones that might be, thought necessary, and to relegate to the Revenue Bill the general amendment of the law which alone gives Members in this House any opportunity of questioning or amending the general system of finance which prevails in this country. The House of Commons has been ridden in blindness, and now we see the result. These two Bills, which we were told were separated in order that we might have more ample opportunities for discussion, and in order that the Finance Bill itself might be dealt with early, are brought up in the Committee stage in the last week but one of the Session.
The one Bill is sacrificed, though the great bulk of Members in every quarter provisions, and because at this period of cause a little knot of Members in one quarter alone on the Government side below the Gangway object to some of its provisions, and because at this period of the Session the most insignificant minority, without the least shadow of popular support behind it, can hold up the whole business of the. House of Commons and destroy the Government's programme. When we come to the Finance Bill let us see what, is the opportunity the House has had of dealing with it. The Government waited so late before they themselves considered the problems with which they had to deal that they find themselves prevented by a well-known and a long-standing rule of the House from carrying out the Amendments which they
2534
had promised and which they were expecting to carry unless the Session is to be prolonged into another week or more. Under those circumstances, what is the position of the House of Commons? It is reduced in those matters to absolute impotence, at the very moment when it claimed sole and uncontrolled power. I think that is a serious situation. I am not one of those who have ever pretended to look with any liking or sympathy on the Parliament Act, and the whole procedure to which it has given birth. I am not distressed if the Government, by their own procedure make that Act ridiculous, and if, indeed, they make it so monstrous an abuse that many who were content to see it passed will be eager to see it repealed; but I do say that for the Government, whose existence in the country, and whose reputation were concerned in its establishment, to have so treated the House of Commons that Members cannot act, is to stultify themselves and to destroy their own legislation. I say no more on this subject. I promised that I would not be long, and though that is difficult when one rises to speak, I mean to keep that promise.
I think I said, also, that I would not enter into any lengthy survey of our financial position, and I do not mean to do so. I think it would be useless in a House constituted like this, with the knowledge that we are going to prorogue the day after to-morrow, and that is the only point in the whole Session probably that any of us will look back upon with any pleasure. It has been the dullest, the most uninteresting, and deadest Session that we have ever known. I do not believe that any Member will say otherwise. I think it would be useless to attempt a reasoned examination of our financial position, or of the monetary conditions which prevail in the country at the present moment, serious though they are, and much material as they give for anxious reflection. But in a few sentences I do desire to recall to the House the situation as I see it, and as I have already more than once presented it to their judgment. We have had a series of extraordinarily prosperous years—a prosperity so abundant that even acute industrial disturbances at home, of a kind more widespread and more serious than any hitherto seen, and acute disturbances in the field of foreign affairs, bringing anxiety, I do not say greater, but as great as any that we have known, have neither one nor the other been able

2535
seriously to check or disturb it. It is an amazing situation for which everyone of us—I am talking now as a citizen; I do not mean Members of this House—may be thankful. But it is not a condition of affairs upon the continuance of which anyone of us can build or count for the future. We are aware that there is already great stringency in the Money market, that there is felt in the City of London and elsewhere to be need for the husbanding of our monetary resources, and for a check to be placed on the enormous issues of new capital which we have had in recent years. And when you come to our domestic trade, though already acquired orders are keeping us busy, new orders are not, I think, coming in the volume to which we have been accustomed, and there are signs of tightness in the Money market, and general uncertainty and anxiety are causing everyone to draw in their horns. I do not want to prophesy the moment at which we may cease to ride on the crest of the wave, but we cannot hope to avoid the trough altogether.
It behoves the Government, charged with the management of the finance of the nation, not to live in good years as if bad years would never come, but in the time when revenue is abundant, when trade is booming, they should try to make some provision for the bad future that we all know must come in its turn. The Government, I regret to say, have made no such provision. Our taxes stand at a very high figure, our Sinking Fund has been reduced by, I think, £3,500,000 from what it was when they came into office; and whilst the National Debt has been reduced by a figure for which the Government often take credit and which I do not grudge them except—[An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear"]—I will be frank and qualify what I have said, for I think I should be contradicting myself if I left that statement alone. I would rather say that I congratulate the Government on their good fortune than that I can give them credit for any efforts they have made. They have made no efforts. They have not set any additional sum aside out of those good years. On the contrary, they have withdrawn a sum which was allocated in much more difficult and less prosperous years by their predecessors to the redemption of the debt, and turned it into the general revenue of the
country. I congratulate them on their good fortune. Let them take all the
2536
credit they can get in any quarter for the results of that good fortune, but what is there to be set against it? Against it there is to be set annual charges which have passed out of the control of this House, which cannot be reduced by the House, which will grow even if the House takes no steps to increase them—annual charges which, capitalised, far exceed the amount of debt which they have reduced. Is that a procedure that the Government, looking back on the prosperity which they have enjoyed, and looking forward to the lean years which must come in their time or somebody else's, can congratulate themselves upon, not as party men, but as guardians for the time being of the national finance, the national credit and the stability of our whole industrial and commercial situation? For my part, I think that the House might well have devoted—as I had, indeed, hoped and arranged with Friends of mine—at least a day for serious debate of the financial situation as we see it to-day, and as it has been created alike by the financial measures, the social measures, and the Budget of the Government. It is idle to attempt a discussion of that kind two days before the Session closes. I can do no more than call the attention of the House, and the attention of those who follow these matters in the country—indeed, it scarcely needs any words of mine to call their attention to it—to the situation in which we stand, to the enormous liabilities which the Government have piled up, and to the anxious prospect which awaits us in the years which immediately follow.
Our taxes are high, many of them higher than we like to see, but there is no chance of taxation being reduced. Expenditure on the Navy must grow. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been one of the most hopeful of those who believed that the state of Europe might permit us not merely to check but to reduce that expenditure. I do not doubt that he is as anxious to-day that that should be the the case as he was when he first entered office. So are we all, but I do not believe that he any longer thinks that is possible or believes that with a due regard to his duty to the country he, or any successor of his in that office, can within the years which we can usefully forecast count upon providing less for the Navy. Indeed, we must count upon having to provide more. If you turn to the Army, the hope that we had found a satis-

2537
factory, permanent, and economical Army scheme, if it were ever cherished by anyone, even by Lord Haldane himself, fades even more and more from our vision, and I do not believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer believes for one moment that naval expenditure can be reduced if national defence is to be secured, or that he or his successors will not be obliged to find more money for national defence in that respect also. Then you come to those two enormous measures of social reform—the Old Age Pension Act and the National Insurance Act—which have already burdened our resources with an annual payment of £20,000,000 and which must in the future, as I have already said, by the mere growth of population and by their automatic working, apart from any efforts we may make to modify hostility, to obviate defects, or to relieve injustice, grow a still heavier charge in the future. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, boasted, as he and the Prime Minister have boasted before, of the relief that they have given on one or two taxes, and of the amount of debt which they have reduced, but, when you strike a balance over the whole of their financial administration. I say that they themselves have to face if they continue in office, and they leave to their successors if they go out of office, a heavier burden of responsibility and a greater financial anxiety than we have known in the lifetime of any Member of this House.
Mr. MILLS: It is, as my right hon. Friend has said, rather in the nature of a sham fight at this time in August to discuss the financial arrangements for the year, and it is especially difficult to discuss the financial arrangements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year, because they do not depend upon facts and figures which we can ascertain and criticise, but upon guesswork and prophecy as to the future which nobody can foretell, and it would be mere waste of the time of the House for me to speculate whether the rosy visions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the future will come off or not. Personally, I venture to think, although he does not deserve it, that he may pull off his great gamble, and that the trade boom will continue long enough to allow him to meet his £6,000,000 deficit without resort to further taxation. After all, the trade boom still continues, and every sign as to the tightness of money, the lowness of securities,
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and the height of loans and acceptances in the Clearing 'Banks all point to the goodness of trade, though, of course, it is a matter for consideration whether this tightness of money, which no doubt has been caused by the goodness of trade, will not in the end pull down the goodness of trade. It is a question whether trade can continue to expand if monetary conditions are very stringent. I should like to remind the House of the very great pride the right hon. Gentleman took in his Budget speech as to the amount of debt he had reduced. He said:—
"By this time next year we shall have reduced the national indebtedness by a sum of £102,000,000. This is not a paper reduction; it is not an ingenious manipulation of figures."
I think my right hon. Friend has shown very clearly that is exactly what it is. It is a very ingenious manipulation of figures and does not by any means show the real position of our accounts. Take, first of all, two items which my right hon. Friend mentioned—Old Age Pensions and the National Insurance Act. It is not my business now to say whether those Acts are good or bad, but the fact remains that they do represent charges in perpetuity, and, if you are going to strike an accurate national balance sheet, you must capitalise those two sums, and, if you do so, I think you will find that far from this Government having made a very large reduction of debt they have made somewhat of an addition. There is another liability which is never disclosed, and which, I think, ought to be mentioned in our national balance sheet, and that is the large deficit which there is on the Savings Bank deposits. Everybody knows that during the last fifteen years Consols have fallen about thirty points, and up to a few years ago the whole of the deposits in the Savings Bank were held in Consols, and to-day, I think, as much as £61,500,000 are so held. It is quite obvious that there must be a huge difference, I cannot tell how much, between the deposits in the Savings Bank and the selling value of the securities in which they are held. That is to say, if there were a run on the Savings Bank to-morrow the deposits would not be able to be paid by the sale of securities. Of course, I do not mean to insinuate for one moment that the Post Office Savings Bank is not solvent. So long as the British Empire is a going concern, of course it is solvent., but this difference does represent a very large liability which I think ought to be published and shown, and, if I might make a suggestion, I would ask the Chan-

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cellor of the Exchequer why the Government do a thing which no business in the world does and hold their own securities. Why, when the Treasury buys Consols for a Government Department, do they not cancel those Consols instead of holding them, and pay to the public Department, in this case the Savings Bank, the interest which is necessary on the deposits? That would be a sounder method of bookkeeping, and besides, with Consols at their present price, it would afford the Chancellor of the Exchequer a most excellent means of making an automatic reduction of debt.
If you really examine our liabilities you will find that this Government, perhaps not entirely through their fault, have very considerably added to them instead of reducing them. You must at the same time realise that they have reduced our annual power of redemption by £3,500,000 by their reduction of the New Sinking Fund. All the time this Government have been in office there has been wonderful trade prosperity, and we have lived right up to the top of our income without making any provision for the inevitable rainy day. I believe so great has been our commercial prosperity that people have not yet fully realised the great strain that is being put upon our resources, and I would beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to think for a moment whether by his very high Income Tax, and more especially, by his very high Death Duties, he is not defeating his own object and making it more difficult for those people who have got to pay the revenue of the future and have got to be responsible for the prosperity of the country and everybody in it, to carry on and expand their business and create further wealth. Last year, during the course of the Budget, I drew the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the abnormal height of the Exchequer balances. At that time they were about £12,000,000, while he had £8,100,000 Treasury Bills outstanding. Under the Finance Act of 1906, he had power to issue £6,000,000 more Treasury Bills before 30th June without coming to the House for their consent. It is quite obvious that with balances of £12,000,000, a great deal higher than they had ever been before, he could not require a further £6,000,000, at all events, for a considerable period of time, and yet he issued the whole £6,000,000 before 30th June, and that money remained on the balances till well
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on towards the end of September. I reckon that transaction cost the country about £50,000. I know that is a small sum when dealing with these immense figures, but I contend that money was simply wasted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was so busy with his Home Rule Bill, with his Welsh Church Bill, and with Bills of that sort that lie had not time to come down to the House and get power to issue these Bills more nearly to the time that they would be wanted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might explain it; perhaps he made a miscalculation and thought that the money might be wanted at once; but it. seems to me, if this House of Commons is the guardian of the national finances, that it is rather ridiculous £50,000 should go in that way without anybody asking any question about it, or any answer being given.
In his Budget speech of 1912, the Chancellor of the Exchequer showed a surplus of £5,000,000 odd, which of course ought to have gone entirely to the Old Sinking Fund. He explained to the House that. £1,500,000 of that surplus was not really represented by savings, but was due to underspending in the Naval Department, and he put it to the House that the money could not rightly be put to the Old Sinking Fund. The House allowed him to put £1,000,000 to his balance for the coming year to provide for the naval expenditure for which that money had been voted, and it also allowed him to put £500,000 from that surplus to his balance to provide for a loan to Uganda during the coming year. This year in his Budget speech he said that both these two items, the £1,000,000 for the Navy and the £500,000 for Uganda, had been met out of current revenue. Therefore, instead of showing at the end of the year a surplus of £200,000, he ought to have shown a balance of £1,500,000. He explained that he did not want to put all this money to the Old Sinking Fund, because it was wanted for the Navy. That is financially improper, but it is a very intelligible argument, and the House allowed him to spend the money on the Navy. But nothing has been said about the £500,000 for Uganda. What has happened to that? It did not appear on the surplus for this year; we are told it was met out of the revenue for the year before; therefore, I suppose that half a million must be on the right hon. Gentleman's balances to-day. Surely, if he has still got 'it on the balances, it ought to appear in the surplus of this year! Under

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present arrangements this half a million has passed absolutely out of the control of the House of Commons. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can bring it up at any moment to finance some scheme of his, and show his admirers how he can produce money out of thin air without having to impose extra taxation. I think the House ought to have some explanation of
this transaction. At a time when this House, although it has sole control of finance, is not allowed to discuss financial arrangements with any adequacy, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be especially careful that all his financial proceedings are strictly constitutional and regular. But ever since he has been in office he has tried as much as he can to evade the control of the House of Commons. It is conduct such as this which has caused grave uneasiness as to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's policy amongst those who are intimately concerned in the finance of the country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George) (who was very indistinctly heard): The proceeding with regard to the £500,000 for Uganda has been explained to the House, when perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not present. It is rather hard on me that it should be suggested that the city does not approve of my finance simply because the hon. Gentleman is not here to know what is going on. The explanation was very simple, if the hon. Gentleman had only taken the trouble to look up the OFFICIAL REPORT before he made his peroration. I was rather struck by the hon. Gentleman's remark that he thought I should probably get my cash. That is rather remarkable. There seemed to be a note of regret, as if the hon. Gentleman was rather afraid that the forecast I made of the prospects of the year might come off. That is rather a change from the criticisms which were directed against the Budget at the time I made my Budget Statement. I have been very much struck by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) in that respect. There were very severe criticisms when I made my Budget statement about it not being realised. It was said that I was gambling and so forth. I do not hear very much of that now.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I only prophesy once a year.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think there is a very much better explanation than that.
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Some months have elapsed since then. The right hon. Gentleman is not going to back up the prophecy which he made in April when what has happened since shows that that prophecy is not likely to be realised. He has been examining the revenue returns, and everything that has happened up to the present rather indicates that I was justified in the prospects which I laid before Parliament as to the revenue of the year. So far my estimates have been completely justified. I am not going to say that there may not be a collapse. No Chancellor of the Exchequer would ever venture to say that in the course of twelve months something might not happen and the finance of the year be disturbed. But I cannot help noting the great difference between the criticisms directed against my forecast in April and the language used about it four months later, when we have had at least some experience of how the revenue is coming in. With regard to the issue of Exchequer Bills, there is a good deal to be said for extending the period. The difficulty is that we are limited in the issue of those Bills, and, therefore, we have to renew them. Otherwise we might not be in a position, when we needed them in June, to raise the cash in March. But there is a good deal to be said for extending the period until September, and that is a point we are considering. But I should not like to say anything definite on that without a great deal more advice than I have at present. It is a very old practice. Sometimes we lose money by it, sometimes we make money. It happens this year we had all these heavy balances; we had to renew these Bills when we had plenty of money in the Exchequer, and, therefore, we lost money. Next year it might be the other way about, and we might save money.
Now I come to the speech in which the right hon. Gentleman opened the discussion. With regard to what he said about the late period of the Session at which this discussion comes on, I do not think his criticism was altogether fair. There are two reasons why the finance of the year has been thrown back to the month of August, and we are not altogether responsible for either. The first is the Gibson Bowles decision, which we had to set right. The right hon. Gentleman himself, if he had been Chancellor of the Exchequer, would have had to do exactly the same. His Bill might have taken a different form, but he would have

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had instantly to set aside everything else in order to legalise the collection of Income Tax for a certain period. We occupied about a fortnight of Parliamentary time in regularising what had been the practice of Parliament for at least 100 years, and, as far as Income Tax is concerned, for sixty or seventy years. That fortnight might very well have been occupied in introducing the Finance Bill and pressing it through Parliament, but during the whole of that time we were at work upon financial matters. The discussions were not confined to technical considerations, but constitutional questions were raised, and the Debates were very wide and far-reaching in many of the considerations that came before Parliament. After that we had a discussion of six or seven days upon finance. I am not sure that I have seen Parliament devote itself so exclusively to the consideration of purely financial questions as it did during that period. There were some subsidiary matters raised, but on at least three or four of those days general questions of finance were ranged over, and I think Parliament discussed them with a greater freedom from party considerations than I have ever seen before. There was a real attempt to face the financial situation. It is the first time in my recollection that Parliament has discussed financial questions in that spirit, and I should have thought that this year was of all years the one when there was least reason to complain from the point of view of the House of Commons being able seriously to consider the financial situation. No one would be better pleased than the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the House of Commons were always to take that line.
The right hon. Gentleman knows how difficult it. is to resist claims for expenditure. Every Chancellor of the Exchequer has perhaps half a dozen claims, all with merits, and all with very* powerful influences supporting them. I had one yesterday. I received an influential deputation who wanted £300,000 or £400,000 for a most meritorious object. If it were purely a question of merit it would be difficult to resist the demand. Every day you have demands of that kind. The reason why Chancellors of the Exchequer do not resist demands which they certainly would resist if they considered only the resources at their disposal, is that there is no support in the House of Commons, or in
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public opinion, for resisting those demands if they have any merits at all. The whole pressure is the other way. I think the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) is about the only Member who ever votes on these questions, I will not say without regard to the merits, but with a single eye to the financial position. That is the difficulty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The nation curses taxes. If you impose a tax, the parties who have to pay it complain. They are very angry with the Government, and especially with the particular Member who takes a leading part in imposing the tax. But you never get any consideration about expenditure. Until the country realises that expenditure and taxes mean the same thing, you will never get economy.
Sir F. BANBURY: Did the right hon. Gentleman protest when he was on this side of the House?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We always do it when the other party is in power with, of course, the exception of the hon. Baronet. But all this occurs because the country has firmly fixed in its mind the idea that expenditure and taxation mean exactly the same thing. They do not. There is great pressure for expenditure from every section of the community. The right hon. Gentleman examined the expenditure of the country. He said, "Look at the Navy." Can you anticipate any deduction of expenditure of the Navy? I wish I could. Can you anticipate any reduction of expenditure on the Army? I do not think so. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say, "Look at old age pensions and insurance." Does he anticipate any reduction there
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: There you are. That is what I mean.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I always said that there would be a burden on the Exchequer in respect of insurance.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: All I want to point out was the increase of expenditure. I saw the right. hon. Gentleman was talking without notes and extemporarily. He was not making a party point, but simply calling attention to the very alarming growth of expenditure in this country. I was very glad to hear it from him. Take all these varied items. Who is there who will take the responsibility of cutting down any of them? I do not mean what individual, but what section of the House of

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Commons, or certainly what party? Parties are afraid to stand up when they are in power to limit the expenditure of money. Take the matter of old age pensions. Would you reduce them? I am merely putting this for the purpose of illustration. Who would cut down the expenditure on the Navy? Parties are afraid to stand up, because they are afraid of their action being misunderstood. They are afraid of being dubbed anti-patriots and Little Englanders, when they are genuinely alarmed about the growth of expenditure on armaments. The same thing applies to the Army. The Press are really, on the whole, hounding us on to expenditure there. Certainly most of the newspapers of the country have bad articles which encouraged expenditure in that direction. It is no use blaming the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Government. Public opinion, for the moment, is in all directions in favour of spending money on every conceivable object. It has not devoted its thought—it has not been sufficiently alarmed to do so—towards economy and the reduction of expenditure. The only reduction of expenditure I ever heard of was a reduction which if effected would result in a decimal of a penny off the Income Tax. These are little things; of little account when we have regard to the expenditure in all the other great matters. In great matters nobody bas set his heart on economy in any direction. Perhaps I should not say anybody, but no great body of opinion. Opinion is perfectly apathetic on the question of expenditure. Hon. Members wish the Government to spend upon various items, doubtless meritorious; everybody wants money spent upon the object that he has an interest in. If you want cheap economy you must put the merits of the case to one side.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Hear, hear!
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Yes, that is the one thing the country have not done up till the present. I am genuinely alarmed about the expenditure on armaments, but I am entitled to say, I think, to my hon. Friend behind me (Sir W. Byles), that I cannot see in any direction that there is the slightest prospect of reduction.
Sir W. BYLES: Why not?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: My hon. Friend says "Why not" The prospect is all the other way. It is because every country in the world for the moment is
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somehow or other, I will not say bound to expenditure, but it is being lured on to expenditure—
Sir W.BYLES: By us.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is not for me to apportion the blame. I do not know that we need blame ourselves or blame others, any more than they should blame us. There is no great public opinion in any great country in the world that somehow or other has the courage to stand up and say to the people responsible for the expenditure that it has got to stop. I believe it will end in great disaster—I will not say to this country—it may do so. The protest will not come about the expenditure. The protest will come about the consequences of the expenditure. I do not believe that you will ever get in any great country in Europe any revolution because of what the Government are spending on armaments. But the inevitable consequences of the expenditure is that a state of things will be produced that will goad the people into a revolutionary protest. Enormous expenditure is taking place on the Continent in a time of profound peace, so far as most of the countries are concerned, in extending armaments. One country spends money. The next country says, "Oh, very well, we have got to spend because our neighbours are doing it." The first country replies to that, "You notice what our neighbours are doing, and we shall have to spend still more." I have got here before me a most interesting document which I should like to circulate if it were possible. It deals with the new German Tax Laws. It is very interesting to those who want to study what a real Increment Tax means and what a real Property Tax means. They are raising huge sums of money in Germany, and I think they are going to do the same in France.
Whoever is responsible, that is what is happening in the countries, and I do not think until there is a complete understanding amongst the countries, and complete co-operation between them to arrest it, that you can stop it. I do not see bow it is to be stopped. One country dare not stop it. I would never assent to the doctrine that one country can stop it to the point of danger. It cannot. It would be much too perilous a thing to do, because once you stop it to the point of danger and something happens, disaster is inevitable, We cannot run the risk. I am not at all sure but that international co-operation

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somehow might not do something, especially with the events of last year fresh in the minds of the people as to what a horrible thing war is, and how very ruinous it is to the commercial, industrial, and the social life of the countries which have been subject to its ravages. Until that is done there is nothing to confront us but an increase of expenditure, and increased expenditure means increased taxation. It is no use going to Governments and saying, "Here you are destroying capital." It is not the Governments that do it at all. It is this sort of mad humour which is eating out their very vitals. The situation has a temperature in which the people cannot judge the situation rationally. Take the temperature at one moment; it is high. Take it at another moment; it is low. It is never normal. People who are subject to this sort of disease, which is coursing through their blood, are not healthy, and they cannot judge the international situation healthily. They cannot judge it like sensible, calm, cool people should do. The result is that wars, suspicions, and so on are generated, and eventually the whole thing may end in a terrible disaster.
Few people realise how very near we have been to it within the last twelve months. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the minds of people are concentrated on armaments and weapons of destruction, and this does involve a frame of mind such as I have indicated. The right hon. Gentleman went on to speak about the expenditure upon social reform. No one has been more responsible for the education of public opinion on these questions than the distinguished relative of the right hon. Gentleman. Public opinion has been created. No Government can stop it. If we left this place and the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends came here they would inevitably have to carry out, I will not say our policy, but a policy started long before, which comes from the needs of the people, from the greater education of the people, and on account of the national discontent with the conditions under which they live. You cannot educate the people and at the same time ask them to live under the conditions which they lived under in the earlier time; which they allowed when they were thoroughly 'uneducated. So far as social reform is concerned, I do not agree that whoever sits here will not have to spend money—and more money. They will have to spend more money upon housing and
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upon those reforms which will improve the conditions of the people and redeem them from the state in which millions live now and which is a shame to a great and wealthy country like this. I regard expenditure on armaments as not merely waste, but as a thing which in itself paralyses the very forces that create wealth. There is nothing that has done more to create money stringency and fears, and what the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, the arrest of new orders. It is not merely the war in the Near East. There has been a feverish activity in expenditure upon armaments of France, and Germany and Russia. There is no doubt at all about it. It has terrified for the moment the sources of activity. That is exactly what happened six months ago so far as orders are concerned. It chilled the heart of trade for the time being.
5.0. P.M
You do not put social reform in the same category. The right hon. Gentleman talks about striking a balance, but he really does not strike a balance. When you talk about expenditure on armaments, you are not striking a balance when you regard it as an asset, you are not striking a balance when you regard it as expenditure. You have got to do something more than that. You have got to remember that for every additional pound spent on armaments you are destroying the credit and confidence which creates activity and energy and wealth in trade and commerce. When you come to social refrom, you improve the conditions of the people, you improve the conditions under which the people live you improve their health and their efficiency, purely as machines for the production of wealth. They are better men. There is no doubt that one reason why the British workman is the better for the money which you pay him when you pay him more than the foreigner, who lives at a lower rate, and under inferior conditions, is that you make him more efficient as an industrial machine. We are not striking a balance by saying that we are spending £20,000,000 upon insurance and old age pensions, because we have got to look at the better side of the ledger. The other side of the ledger is worth a good deal more than £20,000,000 a year. You may say it is not worth £20,000,000 a year to-day, but it will certainly be worth a good deal more than that in another ten, fifteen, or twenty years, exactly as the great sanitary laws of Mr. Disraeli and others have added enormously to the

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efficiency and health of this country. The same thing applies to other kinds of social reform, which improves the health and adds to the strength of the people. Therefore I do not look upon expenditure on social reform in the same light, nor do I put it in the same category as money squandered, not only in this country, but in the other countries of the world, upon these great and terrible armaments. You have got the ingenuity of some of the ablest men of the world applied day and night to the problem as to how they will devise something not merely more destructive, but more expensive, and, therefore, there is no limit to the expenditure, and I see nothing in the outlook before this country, or in the outlook of the world, except increased taxation until the nations cry "stop." I think now I have dealt with all the points the right hon. Gentleman has put before the House except one. He complained that the Parliament Act was responsible to a very large extent for the congestion of business. It is not the Parliament Act which is responsible; it is the conditions which make the Parliament Act necessary. The right hon. Gentleman, I will not say lectured the House, but he did lecture the Government upon the state of their business; but he must remember when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he was Member of a Government that had absolute command. They made their arrangements for the Session; they decided what laws they should pass.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: But you upset that.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I did my best to upset it. Had I been born a peer I should have been infinitely more powerful than a mere Member chosen by thousands of electors in this country. A peer coming from any part of the country at that time counted for much more than a representative of the people; but that is by the way. What I wanted to point out is that the right hon. Gentleman was Member of a Government that had most complete command of its business. The Government had only to accommodate the physical needs of their supporters, and to meet the limits, I will not say of their gullibility, but they had simply to gauge what they would swallow, and how much they would stand. All they had to consider was whether it was possible to get through a long or a short programme. The moment their legislation passed out of the House of Commons every sort of anxiety was off
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their minds, and nothing that happened anywhere else, dislocated their programme for the next year. They knew when they met in the autumn to prepare their programme for the following year, exactly what they wanted. There was nothing that happened elsewhere which had to be taken into account at all. It is all very well for those who have been Members of a Government of that kind to come and lecture Governments who cannot so arrange their business. We sit long and late, and pass Bills; but they are sent back to us once, twice until the third time. And, therefore, when they are thrown out, we have got to arrange our programme in reference to conditions and needs which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues were never subjected to. It is all very well to criticise us and say, "You are not arranging your programme for the Session as beautifully as you might." If we had as complacent a House of Lords, as the right hon. Gentleman and his Government had, we would not be here now in the month of August passing our Finance Bill.
The speech which the right hon. Gentleman delivered is one he ought to deliver in the House of Lords, although I hope it will be a long time before he goes there, and all my Friends behind me are of the same opinion. Still, if he could get someone who would deliver that speech in the House of Lords, I should be exceedingly grateful to him, and if it has the effect it ought to have, then I promise him that next year the Finance Bill will get through as early as any Finance Bill introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite or any of his colleagues. Now that is a fair bargain, and I make him that offer. I agree with him that the Parliament Act is responsible, but it is the only way we can get legislation through. I do not say it is a perfect machine; I should like to see it very much improved, and it will be improved, and when it is improved the right hon. Gentleman will have no reason to complain of a Radical Government, because they put their Finance Bill off till late in the year. I hope next year to introduce the Revenue Bill and the Finance Bill, and to get discussion on them early in the year. We have got to get our legislation through, otherwise Liberal Governments would become impossible, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman in his heart would wish to see a condition of things in which it would be only

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possible for one party to be dominant in the State. Of course, he knows too much about his own party for that. Therefore, I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has taken the line he has with regard to the criticism on expenditure, and I hope he will take into account the representations I have made.
Sir WILLIAM BYLES: We heard a very interesting, but a very unsatisfying, speech about expenditure, and specially expenditure upon armaments. I had not the slightest idea of taking any part in this Debate, but seeing that the right hon. Gentleman has gone so far as to say no one objects to this expenditure, I think it is my duty to get up and say, "I object to it, at all events." He says nobody dares challenge the expenditure on armaments, nobody dare face the danger that might arise, nobody could begin to reduce national expenditure upon munitions of war unless all began together. I regard that as a counsel of despair. It is bitterly disappointing to me especially that a Government which came into power full of professions for reducing expenditure, and especially expenditure on armaments, should not only be unable to make any reduction at all in accordance with the promises which got them their positions and their seats, but that they should actually have increased the expenditure on armaments every year, and gone on increasing it, until those of us who do not believe in it are reduced to despair, and not only that, but that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself should regard any attempt to deal with this terrible national problem as hopeless and useless. He comes down here and tells us this is leading to national disaster. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary warned us two or three years ago, in solemn and impressive tones, that if we went on a year or two longer with this expenditure we should be reduced to national bankruptcy, and that the tendency of such a policy was to sub-merge civilisation. Only yesterday another Member of the Cabinet the President of the Local Government Board, addressing the Medical Congress, concluded with some observations on this subject. We are told it is madness, and so it is madness, but we are told so long as other people do it we must do it. I say it is because we do it other people do it. That a Government of such power as ours, that a nation so prominent as ours, should
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say, "This is all folly, but it is perfectly impossible to stop it. We must go on being fools and being mad; we know it will lead to disaster, but we must go on," is deplorable. "It is not only waste," says my right hon. Friend, "but it is paralysis." What an extraordinary position to take up! We are wasting national money; we are paralysing trade. We know it is folly; we know it is madness, but we can do nothing whatever to stop it.
We want money for social reform and for other things. The Treasury is supposed to be very hard in its dealings with those Ministers and those organisations of the country, and in allowing expenditure on various useful directions, but the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty gets everything he wants. The great spendthrift of the Government has only to ask and to receive. I am speaking quite spontaneously, but from the very bottom of my heart, and with the deepest conviction. I would very much like to deal with this question more fully. One other aspect of it I will only deal with now. The right hon. Gentleman said no one cares, no one objects, but I say there is a growing feeling in the country against it. You have only got to read the newspapers, and you will find how everybody is protesting against it. I remember the time when, standing on a public platform, one was almost afraid to hint at such a thing as reduction of naval expenditure. I hope I was not afraid to do it, but what I mean is that one was apprehensive of a wide dissent from one's views. Now it is very different. You have only to say, "I am for reduced expenditure upon the Navy," and you will get a cheer, and a big cheer, and you will find men in every constituency who are nearly despairing for this Government because they will not attack this question after all the Debates we have had here, and after all we read about the Anglo-German relations, and so on. There are organisations going on in Germany and in this country to promote a state of better things, and there have been important utterances from German statesmen in the direction of grasping England by the hand, and thereby bringing about a reduction of this mutually menacing expenditure. Does it all mean nothing? If this can only be done unitedly, and if it is impossible for this Government to act by itself, then why do we not try and act unitedly? What is the Concert of Europe for?

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Only yesterday we had an important declaration from the Foreign Secretary as to the way in which the Concert had been able to keep together and attain some of the objects it had in view. Why cannot the Concert of Europe address itself to this subject, and what is it for if it cannot put an end to what every hon. Member of this House avows to be mad folly, paralysis and waste? The position is an impossible one. I have been amazed to hear Ministers, and last of all the Minister who has just addressed the House, acknowledge themselves converts to that hopeless and impossible position. We have now cordial and friendly relations with France, and it would never occur to the Government of this country to arm against France. We are on friendly terms with America, and we do not want to arm against America, and why cannot we have the same friendly relations with Germany That is as possible to any Government that wishes to address itself to that question as any other policy, and I still hope that some Minister will arise to take away this stain from the Liberal Government of this country. I believe that by the operation of the Concert of Europe, and by a real determination on the part of the Government, a beginning might be made in the direction of getting rid of this huge, menacing, destructive instrument which keeps us from being on cordial terms and destroys the friendly feelings which ought to exist between nations. Every new ship we build against one another is a new menace and a new allegation of emnity instead of friendship. As somebody once said quite truly in regard to this matter,
"only one ship is wanted, and that is friendship."
Mr. KING: I feel it is my duty, in response to this sort of challenge thrown out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to say that there are a great many more hon. Members than he thinks who feel very deeply and are ready to speak very strongly against our continually increasing expenditure on armaments. I am one of them, and I have been ready to address the House and the Committee on more than one occasion on this subject. I believe with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Sir W. Byles) who has spoken spontaneously but very truly and sincerely, that there is a very large number of people, and an increasing number, who are opposed to our increasing naval and military expenditure. One fact which leads me to think we are right is that we
2554
are taking our stand upon the principles, assertions and promises of Ministers themselves. I wonder whether there are any hon. Members present who remember the Debate of the 15th March, 1906. On that occasion one of the present occupants of the Treasury Bench moved to reduce the Vote for the Army by over £1,000,000, and he was supported in the Lobby by several hon. Members who are now colleagues of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in fact, the two hon. Members who told in the Division against the Government, and in favour of the Amendment condemning military expenditure, are now both sitting on the Treasury Bench. Those very Ministers who come forward year after year asking for increased expenditure and increased Estimates for armaments used words like these:—
"Exaggerated Estimates and bloated establishments."
They spoke like that seven years ago, and they are now forgetting the principles upon which they have established their reputation in this House. I ask them to turn back to their earlier records and better principles, and have the courage now which they had then to protest against this ever-increasing military expenditure. I feel it my duty to call attention to the words which the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself used only two years ago. Speaking on the 16th May, 1911, in his Budget Statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer used these words:—
"Naval expenditure is up this year by £1,000000, and that represents a total increase in three years of £12,200,000. This expenditure has now reached the gigantic figure of£44,000,000. When the Unionist Government left office in 1892 the naval expenditure was £14,750,000, and in the course of twenty years it has gone up from £14,000,000 to £44,000,000, but I hope and believe that the climax has now been reached."
Very shortly after that the First Lord of the Admiralty used these words:—
"I think the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have already indicated that we have reached the climax in our naval expenditure, and next year we may look forward to a substantial reduction to be followed in succeeding years by still greater reductions."
Those words were used by the present First Lord of the Admiralty, and he makes no excuse now when he comes down here and asks for an increase in the Navy Estimates. My own view of the matter is that we require less money now, because we are certainly on better terms with all the nations of Europe than we were then, and undoubtedly we are on better terms with our great competitor, the hegemony of Europe, I mean Germany. Why we should go on increasing our expenditure on armaments in view of the improved political outlook I do not know. I wish to

2555
allude in this connection to what I believe is one of the most serious and menacing aspects of our naval and military expenditure at the present time, and that is the way in which the Government is falling into the hands of companies, rings, and combines. Some few years ago we built far more than half of our great ships of war in our own yards, and the Government knew perfectly well then that they were getting value for their money. They concluded that this process could be performed more cheaply in private yards, but are we getting value for our money? Under the new system more than two-thirds of our great ships are being built in private yards, and we do not know whether we are getting value for our money.
Mr. BOOTH: I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether this review of the expenditure of the Navy by contract or in Government yards is really pertinent to a discussion upon the Finance Bill, which only raises the money, and I would like to ask whether it would not be better to bring up that question on the Appropriation Bill?
Mr. SPEAKER: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech, seemed rather to open up that topic, and therefore I did not feel it was my duty to prevent the hon. Member from taking it up.
Mr. KING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that was just my feeling. The challenge was thrown out, and it was only right that it should be taken up if only by such an humble Member as myself. I was trying to put it that our present system means that we do not get value for our money in our naval expenditure, and that we are throwing millions away on private companies which are making huge profits. I wish to call attention to the way in which members of our Civil Service who have held high positions in the War Office and in the Admiralty have accepted positions in connection with our great armament firms. I hold in my hand a list of gentlemen who are no doubt men of high integrity and honour, and I have nothing whatever to say against them, but I urge that when a man who has been, for example, the director of Ordnance in the War Office, or has been a director of naval intelligence in the Admiralty is pensioned off, the Government ought not to allow those gentlemen to take directorships in armament firms.
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not see any relevance between the remarks the hon. Member is making and the Bill now before the House. What he has just stated is a criticism upon the Department of the Army and the Navy, and that would be more relevant to the discussion to-morrow.
Mr. KING: It seems to me that we are throwing our money into the hands of men who do not give us value for it. I hope I shall be in order in approaching this question from another point of view. The building of our warships is now thrown into the hands of great firms who form rings, and we do not know—
Mr. SPEAKER: That, again, is a question of naval administration, and the Navy Votes will be in the Appropriation Bill to-morrow
Mr. KING: Then I will defer the rest of my speech until to-morrow.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow (Thursday).

TEMPERANCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments.
The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
The House is well aware that the effect of these Amendments, taken as a whole, represents an agreement which, on behalf of the Government, I ask the House to accept.
Mr. MORTON: I desire to make a few remarks with regard to the compromise which has been arrived at on this Bill. The representatives of Scotland in this House number some sixty Liberal Members and about eight Tories. Here is a compromise in which Scotland alone is affected and my complaint is that the Scottish Liberal Members were never consulted

2557
with regard to it. No doubt we considered fully all the Amendments to the Bill which we expected was to take advantage of the Parliament Act as it went from this House, but, by some extraordinary arrangement that goes on, outside interests and the Opposition side were consulted, and we Liberal Members were not asked what we thought about this. That must be wrong. We are sent here by the Scottish constituencies to represent Scotland, and in a compromise of this kind we certainly ought to be considered. On some measures there is no difficulty in calling the Members together, and we ought to have been asked whether we consented to this compromise before it was agreed to by the Government. It is all very well for the Scottish Office to do as they like without regard to the Scottish Liberal Members, and it may be said they can shove these things through with the help of the Labour party and the Irish Members, whether we like it or not. That is what we feel at the present moment, while we Scottish Members support Home Rule and other measures, and we want to secure that the views of the Scottish people should be thought of when a matter of this kind is settled. The Small Landholders Act was spoiled in the same way by consulting the other side and nothing was done for Sutherlandshire. I felt it to be my duty to say these closing words. This cannot be allowed to go on in this way, and I hope the Government will turn over a new leaf next Session and take care that with regard to Scottish local matters the wishes and feelings of the majority of the Scottish representatives, who are always practically Liberal, will be considered before they settle these com-promises with outside interests. Let me quote from a journal which is a strong supporter of the Liberal party and the Liberal Government, so far as they act in a liberal spirit in carrying on a Liberal policy. This is what they say with regard to the compromise:—
"We cannot profess to feel any kind of pride in or satisfaction with the compromise which has been arrived at on the Scottish Temperance Bill. What we actually feel is something akin to humiliation that a Liberal Government should have been compelled to accept any other terms than those contained in the Bill—terms which were naturally presumed to be the irreducible minimum. But the 'Trade' and their allies in the Lords have been able to will it otherwise. The time limit has been increased from five to eight years. a very considerable concession, and, what is of equal importance, a change has been made in the dimensions of the poll necessary to put the options into effect. As the Bill stood the majority necessary to carry either of those items or a no-licence or a limiting resolution must include not less than 30 per cent. of the electors in the area. This figure is increased to 35 per cent. On the other hand, it is true that the Opposition has made a
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concession. As proposed, a no-licence resolution in order to be carried required a percentage of 60 in favour to 40 against. The Lords here intimated their willingness to accept a percentage of 55 to 45, which means a drop of 5 per cent. in the majority required. In practical working we do not think, however, any advantage will be got. The disturbing fact is the increase from 30 to 35 per cent. in the number of those on the roll who are really required to vote in favour of either prohibition or reduction in order to carry a resolution. Everybody with experience in municipal politics knows how difficult it is to bring the electors to the poll, and it is quite evident that under the conditions imposed the friends of temperance will have a stiff task to obtain the required percentage. It is really wonderful how the trade manages to get the dice loaded in its favour no matter what is on hand. Lord Rosebery a good many years ago said that if the country did not control the liquor interest the liquor interest would control the country. He spoke for the nonce with the voice of a prophet."
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland has read what appears in that paper, but I do trust when he walks out again to give away our rights to any interests, the House of Lords or otherwise, that he will
bear in mind that that article which I have quoted from an influential and most respectable paper in Scotland in the Liberal interest no doubt speaks the wishes and feelings of the people, and I should like to see the Secretary for Scotland better able to appreciate Scottish feeling on this question of temperance and other matters in connection with local government. I am sorry to have to make these remarks, but it is certainly time for some Scottish Member or Scottish Members to speak out in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
Mr. MUNRO: I regret that I cannot entirely agree with some of the observations which have fallen from my hon. Friend the Member for Sutherlandshire (Mr. Morton). I think, if I may say so, on this occasion that the Secretary for Scotland, so far from being scolded, deserves to be congratulated upon the compromise which he has effected. He has succeeded where his Predecessors have failed in ensuring that a Scottish Temperance Bill, after many years of delay, shall be placed on the Statute Book. That has only been done after negotiations requiring much tact and firmness and patience in their conduct. So far as the matter which has been raised by my hon. Friend is concerned, I think there are just two questions between us. One is, whether a good bargain has been made. Personally, I have not the smallest doubt upon that matter, and, if my hon. Friend has any doubt about it, I would recommend him to read some of the rather lugubrious speeches which were made in another place by those who felt they were bound to

2559
assent to the compromise, but who, I think, very plainly showed that they thought that the Secretary for Scotland had driven a rather hard bargain. So far as the compromise is concerned, on the merits I think it is a very satisfactory one. So far as consulting the Scottish Members is concerned I am bound to say I do not labour under any sense of injustice in that matter. If you are engaged in litigation and you have got to settle it. you must really trust your counsel, and when the litigation is in the course of being settled you cannot have your counsel always running backwards and forwards in order to be armed with fresh authority for every detail in the course of the settlement. So far as this settlement is concerned I am sure I speak for the large majority of Scottish Members when I say that they are entirely satisfied not only with the terms of the compromise but with the manner in which it has been conducted. The master fact of the settlement is, of course, that it is an agreed settlement, and inasmuch as it is, I take it that involves that this Bill is fairly secure in its future history, whereas if another course had been taken and the Bill had been passed under the Parliament. Act I doubt very much if I should have been able to say so under those circumstances. While I had no desire to intervene in this Debate, I did feel bound to make these observations, and to add that the criticism which my hon. Friend has read from a Scottish newspaper is really founded on a misapprehension of the parliamentary situation.
Mr. PRINGLE: I approach the consideration of the Amendments which are now before the House from a somewhat different point of view from either of my hon. Friends. I wish, however, to join with my hon. Friend the Member for Wick Burghs (Mr. Munro) in congratulating the Secretary for Scotland on the settlement which he has reached in regard to this matter, and I feel all the greater pleasure in doing so because I found myself at variance with him on the last occasion when the Lords Amendments were considered in this House. On that occasion I made a plea for negotiation, for accommodation, and for compromise. That plea at that time may have been premature. In any event, I am glad that now at a later period negotiations have taken place, and that those negotiations have been completely successful. While we congratulate the Secretary for Scotland, I think that Liberal Members on this side should not
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fail to recognise the services which have been rendered by the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger). My hon. Friend the Member for Sutherlandshire (Mr. Morton) regards any such acknowledgment as a matter to be treated with contempt. I, however, think that it is of the utmost importance that on a Bill of this kind a settlement should have been arrived at by consent. Had this Bill been passed under the terms of the Parliament Act it would have gone to Scotland simply as a party measure and as a measure passed simply by the House of Commons. Now that a settlement has been reached this Bill goes to Scotland as the agreed Bill of both parties, and in the case of a measure which vitally and intimately affects the social life of the people, and the successful working of which depends on the goodwill of people of all parties in Scotland, I think we cannot overestimate the importance of this happy settlement which has now been arrived at. I do not desire to enter at all into the merits of the Amendments. I think that the Secretary for Scotland has made an admirable bargain. Both sides have, of course, given way, and that is essential to any satisfactory compromise.
I desire to say that the procedure upon this Bill seems to me to afford an example of how the Parliament Act may be worked in regard to normal measures. Of course, in regard to contentious measures, measures of first-rate importance like the Home Rule Bill and the Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill, it is natural that the House of Lords should exercise their powers of delay to their fullest extent; but in regard to other measures not of such importance, where the House of Lords only seeks to revise and not to obstruct, I think we have, in regard to the Scottish Temperance Bill, and our experience in connection with it, a justification of one of the methods which the Parliament Act will bring into operation, namely, the method of bargaining between the two Houses and between the two parties. Nobody at present speaks well of the Parliament Act. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have always denounced it, and many Members on this side of the House have very little to say to its credit. On the other hand, I am one of those who believe that the conditions of the Parliament Act are probably the most favourable conditions which will ever be obtained for the passing of Liberal legislation in this country, and it is because I believe, in respect to the Scottish Temperance Bill, and not in respect of Home Rule

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or Welsh Church Disestablishment, we see what will be the normal working of the Parliament Act that I welcome this compromise, and I welcome it not only from the point of view of Scottish temperance but also because it proves the successful working of the Parliament Act.
Mr. CHARLES ROBERTS: I wish to say a single word as an English temperance reformer, and I desire to express the thanks of temperance reformers in England to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Scotland for his services in connection with this Bill. I think many of those who agree with me throughout the United Kingdom will feel that they owe a very warm debt of gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman for the work he has accomplished, and will recognise that he has shown great firmness and very sound practical judgment in making his bargain so as to get this measure under the conditions in which he has got it. Of course, I regret that the Act is delayed a little while in coming into operation, but I hold that those who look at this question from my standpoint, have gained on the other points of the compromise quite as much as they have lost, and I fully agree it is a matter of great satisfaction that the Front Opposition Benches in both Houses have at last accepted the principle of this Bill, although I do not think that they understand the principle they have accepted. It is, at all events, satisfactory, although there is some delay, that this Bill, after long controversy, will now pass as an agreed measure on to the Statute Book. I agree that it is thanks to the Parliament Act that we have got the measure without essential damage. That has been admitted by the Noble Lord in the Upper House, who practically said he was forced into this agreement, because the Parliament Act hung in terrorem over his head. This is one of the first fruits—it is literally the first fruit—of our recovered Constitution. Personally, I should like to express my thanks to the Government for what they have done in this matter, and to state that our aim now is that this measure which has been passed for Scotland, and the principle which has been agreed to by all parties in this House, should be extended to other parts of the United Kingdom.
Mr. SCOTT DICKSON: The hon. Member who last spoke seems to think that the principle of this Bill was only accepted
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when the Lords agreed to the compromise which has been arrived at, but I think he should remember that on many other occasions we accepted the principle, and, therefore, I cannot understand what he means by saying that it has only now been accepted. That, I think, is a total misrepresentation of the facts.
Mr. C. ROBERTS: I do not wish to misrepresent the position, and if it is true that the principle has been accepted all these years, it only increases my satisfaction.
Mr. SCOTT DICKSON: Certainly, the words which the hon. Member used gave me the impression that, in his view, there had been a new departure in this respect, whereas the slightest acquaintance with our procedure would have shown him that that is not so. I will not, however, deal further with that point. With regard to the observations which fell from the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) and the hon. Member who has just spoken (Mr. C. Roberts), I feel that they entirely misunderstand the position when they say that this in any sense represents the first fruit of the Parliament Act. The hon. Members have only to read what was said by the Lord Chancellor in the other House about the impossibility of passing this Bill under the Parliament Act to recognise that that was not the standpoint from which the Bill was approached. It is quite out of the question to take this as an indication of how the Parliament Act could be strained so as to pass a measure of this kind, and I venture to think that is not the position which responsible Ministers take in regard to the powers of the Parliament Act. I quite agree with what fell from the hon. Member for Wick (Mr. Munro), namely, that so far as a measure passes under the Parliament Act, it is quite recognised on both sides of the House that it involves no finality; that it is merely a temporary measure which requires to be reviewed whenever the opposing party gets into power. But that is a question we need not discuss here. I confess that my views, so far as this Bill is concerned, have not changed. I do not think it will do the good which its promoters anticipate, but they will have the opportunity, if they live long enough, to see how it works when it comes into operation. It is impossible to say what the social position may be in 1920, or what the position of the trade may be in that year, but so far as the Bill

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is concerned, I, personality, still think it is not calculated to achieve any of the great results which those who believe in it think likely to result from it. I do not in any way dissent from the congratulations that have been expressed on both sides on the fact that a compromise has been arrived at, but I think that to refrain from jubilation on one side or the other will probably tend more to give the Act a chance when it comes into operation in 1920, than indulgence in recrimination or blame. The Bill as it now stands will be amended as a result of the compromise, and we are content, so far as this side of the House is concerned, that the measure, if, and when, it comes into operation, shall have fair play.
Mr. HOGGE: I am afraid I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that there is no good in this Bill, because he and. his Friends are responsible for some of the changes which were put in in order to achieve some good. I think the right hon. Gentleman will probably agree that the Clause concerning clubs put in in the House of Lords, and one or two other minor Amendments, have improved the Bill from that point of view, and that ought to be borne in mind. I do not think some of my hon. Friends on this side have adopted a fair way of looking at the Bill. Surely, the most vital point that has been settled in this attempt to deal with the difficulty of intemperance, is the establishment of a time limit that is reasonably long enough to enable the trade to put its house in order without affecting those who are concerned in it in a disastrously financial way. If it requires eight years' time limit in Scotland to cover that risk, I do not know that my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts) will look forward with much pleasure to the period that will be required in England. But that is by the way. What I wanted particularly to say was that, although I have opposed this Bill right through its course in Parliament on one particular question, I am glad it has been settled on the basis of this compromise. Everything that is in it now I am glad to see in it. I want to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, whether he and the Ministers who sit in this House, take the same view with regard to the option which was most in dispute during the discussion of this Bill, namely, the option of disinterested management, as was taken in the House of Lords by the Lord Chan-
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cellor and by Earl Beauchamp, who represented the Government in this matter. I read their speeches very closely in dealing with this particular matter, and I think they made it quite clear that so far as they were concerned, the only obstacle to- the adoption of disinterested management as an option, was that it was not convenient to put it into this particular Bill, but if a Bill was introduced into Parliament dealing not only with Scotland, but with the whole of the United Kingdom, both the Lord Chancellor and Earl Beauchamp, and all those associated with the Government in the House of Lords, will be glad to see that Bill become law. I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland if that is the view of the Government in the House of Commons?
Mr. SPEAKER: That is not relevant to this discussion. There is nothing about it in the Lords Amendment.
Mr. HOGGE: I only wish to convey an intimation that if it were not so I might feel it my duty to oppose the Amendment. But if we were assured that that was the view taken, we might allow the Amendment to go through easily. I will not pursue the point, however, as it is not relevant. I will conclude by repeating that the main gain which has been achieved by this Bill has been the establishment of a principle which will make temperance reform easy, not only in Scotland, but in England. When it was tackled in future years, namely, the fact that temperance sentiment has now recognised that it is not fair to make these changes in the trade without giving the trade reasonable notice to put their financial affairs in order.
Sir J. M'CALLUM: I congratulate the Government on the Bill, and I also congratulate them on the able way in which the Secretary for Scotland has conducted the proceeding throughout. We who have long worked for this Bill, see the fruits of it in this measure, and to me it is delightful to hear both sides taking up the position they have adopted this afternoon.
Question put, and agreed to.

TEMPERANCE (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Date of Act Coming into Operation.)
  This Act shall, except as otherwise in this Act provided, come into operation on the expiration of five years from the first day of June nineteen hundred and twelve.
  Amendment made: Leave out the word "five" ["expiration of five years"], and insert instead thereof the word "eight."

  CLAUSE 2.—(Poll of Electors on Resolution Submitted.)
  (1) If, in the manner hereinafter provided, a requisition demanding a poll under this Act in any area is found by the local authority to have been duly signed, the local authority shall cause a poll of the electors in such area (hereinafter called "a poll") to be taken in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
  (2) The questions to be submitted to the electors at a poll shall be the adoption in and for such area of (a) a no-change resolution, or (b) a limiting resolution, or (c) no-licence resolution.
  (3) On a poll in any area—

  (a) if three-fifths at least in number of the votes recorded are in favour of a no-licence resolution, and not less than thirty per cent. of the electors for such area on the register have voted in favour thereof, such resolution shall be deemed to be carried; or if

  (b) a majority of the votes recorded are in favour of a limiting resolution, and not less than thirty per cent. of the electors for such area on the register have voted in favour thereof, such resolution shall be deemed to be carried; or if

  (c) a majority of the votes recorded are in favour of a no-change resolution, or if no other resolution is carried, a no-change resolution shall be deemed to be carried; and

  any such resolution so carried shall come into force on the twenty-eighth day of May immediately following the taking of the poll.
  (4) An elector shall not be entitled to vote for more than one of the resolutions submitted at the poll, but if a no-licence resolution be not carried, the votes recorded in favour of such resolution shall be added to those recorded in. favour of the limiting resolution, and shall be deemed to have been recorded in favour thereof.
  (5) Any such resolution if carried shall remain in force until the resolution is repealed or superseded as hereinafter provided.
  Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), paragraph (a), leave out the words "three-fifths ["if three-fifths at least"], and insert instead thereof the words "fifty-five per cent." Leave out the words "in number" ["in number of the votes"]. Leave out the word "thirty" ["thirty per cent."], and insert instead thereof the words "thirty-five." Paragraph (b), leave out the word "thirty," and insert instead thereof the words "thirty-five."

  CLAUSE 6.—(Structural Alterations.)
  As from the passing of this Act, and until the first day of June nineteen hundred and seventeen, it shall not be competent for a Licensing Court to order any structural alterations of licensed premises under Section forty-two, Subsection (3), of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903.
  Amendment made: Leave out the word "seventeen" ["nineteen hundred and seventeen"], and insert instead thereof the word "twenty."

  CLAUSE 8.—(Amendment of Law Relating to Clubs.)
  (1) Section seventy-eight, Sub-section (1), of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903 (hereinafter in this Section referred to as "the Act of 1903"), shall be amended (a) by substituting the words "and the names and addresses of the members" for the words "and the names of the members"; (b) by substituting the words "two members either of the Licensing Court or of the Court of Appeal for the county within which such premises are situate, or one member of each of such Courts not being the same member, or, where such premises are situate within a burgh, either by two justices of the peace who for the time being are members of the Court of Appeal from the burgh Licensing Court or by two magistrates of the burgh, or by one justice, as aforesaid, and one magistrate," for the words "two justices of the peace for the county within which such premises are situate, or, where such premises are situate within a burgh, either by two justices of the peace, as aforesaid, or by two magistrates of the burgh, or by one justice and one magistrate"; and (c) by adding the words "(1) any such justice of the peace or magistrate may, within ten days from the date on which he signed the certificate, withdraw his name from the certificate granted by him; and (2)," after the words "Provided that."
  (2) Section seventy-nine, Sub-section (2), of the Act of 1903 shall be amended by including amongst those persons who may lodge objections to the grant or renewal of the certificate of registration the procurator fiscal and any person, or the agent of any person, owning or occupying property in the neighbourhood of the club, and by substituting the word "twenty one" for the word "ten."
  (3) Section seventy-nine, Sub-section (4), of the Act of 1903 shall have effect as if the power conferred thereby on the sheriff (to award expenses against the unsuccessful party where objection has been taken to the grant or renewal of a certificate) included the like power where a summary complaint has been lodged.
  (4) Any person or council competent under the Act of 1903 to lodge objections to the grant or renewal of a certificate of registration may, within twenty-one days of the receipt of the notice of application for the grant or renewal of a certificate, lodge with the registrar objections to such grant or renewal of the certificate on one or more of the following grounds, and that in addition to the grounds specified in Section eighty-one of the Act of 1903:—

  (a) That the premises are, or the situation thereof is, not suitable or convenient for the purpose of a club; or that there is a drinking-bar or other part of the premises mainly or exclusively used for the consumption of exciseable liquors; or

  (b) That the club is to be used mainly as a drinking club; or

  (c) That the owner of the premises, when the same are not owned by the club or the immediate lessor of the premises, or the officials and committee of management, or governing body, or the manager, or a servant employed in or by the club have, or has, or will have, a personal interest in the purchase by the club or in the sale in the club of exciseable liquors, or in the profits arising therefrom; or

  (d) That persons are habitually admitted or supplied as members without an interval of at least two weeks between their nomination and election as ordinary members or for a subscription of a merely nominal amount; or

  (e) That the officials and committee of management or governing body or the members are persons of bad character or who follow no lawful
  2568
  occupation and have no lawful means of subsistence; or

  (f) That the club has been or will be used as the resort of criminals or persons of bad character; or

  (g) That men or women of bad fame assemble in or frequent the club.

  (5) Section eighty-nine of the Act of 1903 shall be read as if the words "an application with the accompanying documents specified in Section seventy-eight, Subsection (1), of the Act of 1903, any one of" were substituted for the words "an application for registration."
  (6) This Section shall take effect as from the passing of this Act.
  Amendment made: At the end of paragraph (g) insert the words, "or (h) That exciseable liquors are sold or supplied for consumption on or off the premises between the hours of two in the morning and ten in the morning."

  CLAUSE 15.—(Definitions.)
  The several words and expressions used in this Act shall unless otherwise provided or unless there be something in the subject or context repugnant to such construction have the same respective meanings as in the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903:
  Provided that in this Act—
  "Area" means—
  (a) in the case of a burgh divided into wards, the population of which burgh within the police boundaries thereof according to the census for the time being last taken is not less than ten thousand, any ward of such burgh, and in the csae of other burghs, the whole burgh; and
  "Elector" means, in the case of—

  (a) a burgh, any person registered as entitled to vote at an election of town councillors for that burgh, and When used in relation to any area in a burgh means a person so registered as entitled to vote at an election for that area; and in the case of—

  (b) a parish (excluding any burgh or part of a burgh therein), any person registered as entitled to vote at an election of parish councillors for that parish, excluding as aforesaid: Provided that the supplementary register made up in the year nineteen hundred and sixteen under Section twenty-eight of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, shall

  2569
  continue in operation for the purposes of a poll under this Act in the year nineteen hundred and seventeen, and provided, further, that for the purposes of a requisition in the year of a triennial election of county councillors before the register of parish council electors is made up "elector'' means any ratepayer within the parish, excluding as aforesaid.

  Lords Amendments:—
  in paragraph (a), leave out the words "according to the census for the time being last taken," and insert instead thereof the words "as ascertained in the year nineteen hundred and nineteen for the purposes of this Act in manner approved by the Secretary for Scotland."
  In paragraph (a), leave out the word "ten"["ten thousand"], and insert instead thereof the word "twenty-five."
  In paragraph (a), after the word "burgh"["any ward of such burgh"], insert the words, "unless, where the population of any ward of such burgh as so ascertained is less than four thousand, the town council by resolution passed on or before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty, determine that such ward shall for the purposes of this Act be combined with a ward contiguous thereto."
  In paragraph (b), leave out the word "sixteen" ["in the year nineteen hundred and sixteen"], and insert instead thereof the word "nineteen."
  In paragraph (b), leave out the word "seventeen" ["in the year nineteen hundred and seventeen"], and insert instead thereof the word "twenty."
  6.0 P.M.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendments."
  Mr. MORTON: With regard to the first Amendment—
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot discuss that now. He should have stopped me before.
  Mr. MORTON: Shall I be able to deal with any of them?
  Mr. SPEAKER: They have all been put. The hon. Member is too late; he should have interposed earlier.
  Question put, and agreed to.

MENTAL DEFICIENCY BILL
Lords Amendments considered.
MENTAL DEFICIENCY BILL

  CLAUSE 2.—(Circumstances Rendering Defectives Subject to be Dealt with.)
  (1) A person who is a defective may be dealt with under this Act by being sent to or placed in an institution for defectives or placed under guardianship—

  (a) at the instance of his parent or guardian, if he is an idiot or imbecile, or at the instance of his parent if he is under the age of twenty-one; or

  (b) if in addition to being a defective he is a person—

  (i) who is found neglected, abandoned, or without visible means of support, or cruelly treated; or

  (ii) who is found guilty of any criminal offence, or who is ordered or found liable to be ordered to be sent to a certified industrial school;

  (iii) who is undergoing imprisonment (except imprisonment under civil process), or penal servitude, or is undergoing detention in a place of detention by order of a Court, or in a reformatory or industrial school, or in an inebriate reformatory or who is detained in an institution for lunatics or a criminal lunatic asylum; or

  (iv) who is an habitual drunkard within the meaning of the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900; or

  (v) in whose case such notice has been given by the local education authority as is hereinafter in this Section mentioned; or

  (vi) who is in receipt of poor relief at the time of giving birth to an illegitimate child or when pregnant of such child.

  (2) Notice shall, subject to regulations made by the Board of Education, to be laid before Parliament as hereinafter provided, be given by the local education authority to the local authority under this Act in the case of all defective children over the age of seven—

  (a) who have been ascertained to be incapable by reason of mental defect of receiving benefit or further benefit in special schools or classes, or who cannot be instructed in a special

  2571
  school or class without detriment to the interests of the other children, or for whom the Board of Education certify that no suitable special school or class is available;

  (b) who on or before attaining the age of sixteen are about to be withdrawn or discharged from a. special school or class, and in whose case the local education authority are of opinion that it would be to their benefit that they should be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship.

  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), after the word "if" ["if he is under the age of twenty-one"], insert the words "though not an idiot or imbecile."
  In Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), leave out the words "no suitable special school or class is available," and insert thereof the words, "there are special circumstances which render it desirable that they should be dealt with under this Act by way of supervision or guardianship."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 3.—(Power to Deal with Defectives at Instance of Parent or Guardian.)
  (1) The parent or guardian of a defective who is an idiot or imbecile, or is under the age of twenty-one, may place him in an institution or under guardianship: Provided that he shall not be so placed in an institution or under guardianship, except upon certificates in the prescribed form signed by two duly qualified medical practitioners, one of whom shall be a medical practitioner approved for the purpose by the local authority, and, where the defective is not an idiot or imbecile, countersigned, after such inquiry as he shall think fit, by a judicial authority for the purposes of this Act, stating that the person to whom the certificate relates is a defective and the class of defectives to which he belongs, accompanied by a statement, signed by the parent or guardian, giving the prescribed particulars with respect to him.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "or ["or is under the age"], and insert instead thereof the words "and the parent of a defective who, though not an idiot or imbecile."
  Leave out the word "countersigned," and insert instead thereof the words "also signed."
  After the word "that" ["stating that the person"], insert the words "the signatories of the certificate are severally satisfied that."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 4.—(Power to Deal with Defectives otherwise than at Instance of Parent or Guardian.)
  A defective subject to be dealt with under this Act otherwise than at the instance of his parent or guardian may so be dealt with—

  (a) under an order made by a judicial authority on a petition presented under this Act; or

  (b) under an order of a Court, in the case of a defective found guilty of a criminal offence or liable to be ordered to be sent to an industrial school; or

  (c) under an order of the Secretary of State, in the case of a defective detained in a prison, criminal lunatic asylum, reformatory or industrial school, place of detention, or inebriate reformatory;

  but no such order shall be made except in the circumstances and in the manner hereinafter specified.
  Lords Amendments:—
  Leave out the words "at the instance of his parent or guardian," and insert instead thereof the words "under paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section two of this Act."
  In paragraph (b), after the word "offence," insert the words "punishable in the case of an adult with imprisonment or penal servitude."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 5.—(Presentation of Petitions.)
  (2) Every petition shall be accompanied by two medical certificates, one of which shall be signed by a medical practitioner approved for the purpose by the local authority, or a certificate that a medical examination was impracticable, and by a statutory declaration signed by the petitioner and by at least one other person (who may be one of the persons who gave a medical certificate) stating—
  Lord Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (2), after the word "authority" ["approved for the purpose by the local authority"], insert the words "or Board."
  Leave out the word "signed" ["by a statutory declaration signed by the petitioner"], and insert instead thereof the word "made."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 6.—(Procedure on Hearing Petitions.)
  Sub-section (2) Proceedings before the judicial authority may in any case if the judicial authority thinks fit, and shall, if so desired by the person to whom the petition relates, be conducted in private, and in that case no one except the petitioner, the person to whom the petition relates, any two persons appointed for the purpose by the person to whom the petition relates, and the persons signing the medical certificates and the statutory declaration accompanying the petition shall, without leave of the judicial authority be allowed to be present.
  Lords Amendments:
  In Sub-section (2), after the word "relates" ["the person to whom the petition relates, any two persons appointed for the purpose"] insert the words "his parents or guardians and."
  After the word "relates" ["two persons appointed for the purpose by the person to whom the petition relates"] insert the words "or by his parents or guardians."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 7.—(Variation of Orders.)
  Sub-section (3) An order under this Section shall not be made without giving to the relative or other person who presented the original petition and to the local authority an opportunity of being heard.
  Lords Amendments:
  In Sub-section (3), after the word "giving," insert the words "to the local authority and, where practicable."
  After the word "petition," insert the words "and to the parent or guardian of the defective."
  Leave out the words "and to the local authority."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 8.—(Procedure in Cases of Persons Guilty of Offences, etc.)
  (1) On the conviction by a Court of competent jurisdiction of any person of any offence punishable with penal servitude or imprisonment, or on a child brought before a Court under Section fifty-eight of the Children Act, 1908, being found liable to be sent to an industrial school, the Court, if satisfied on medical evidence that he is a. defective within the meaning of this Act, may either—
  (2) The Court may act either on the evidence given during the trial, or may call for further medical or other evidence.
  (3) Where the Court so directs a petition to be presented against a person, it may order him to be detained in an institution for defectives or in a place of safety for such time as is required for the presentation of the petition.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), after the word "any" ["any offence punishable with penal servitude"], insert the word "criminal."
  After the word "punishable," insert the words "in the case of an adult."
  In Sub-section (2), after the word "trial," insert the words" or other proceedings."
  In Sub-section (3), at the end, insert the words "and the adjudication thereof."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 11.—(Duration of Detention under Orders.)
  (2) An order shall remain in force for a year after the date when wider the preceding provisions of this Section it would have expired, and thereafter for successive periods of five years, if at that date and at the end of each period of one and five years respectively the Board, after considering such special report and certificate as is hereinafter mentioned and the means of care and supervision which would be available if he were discharged consider that the continuance of the order is required in his interests and make an order for the purpose:
  Provided that where a defective was, at the time of being sent to the institution or placed under guardianship, under twenty-one years of age, the case shall be reconsidered by the visitors appointed under this Act within three months after he attains the age of twenty-one years.
  (3) On such reconsideration the visitors shall visit the defective or summon him to attend before them and inquire into his mental condition and the means of care and supervision which would be available if he were discharged and into all the circumstances of the case, and if it appears to them that further detention in an institution or under guardianship is no longer required in the interests of the defective alone, shall order him to be discharged:
  Provided that if the visitors do not order his discharge the defective or his parent or guardian may within fourteen days after the decision of the visitors has been communicated to the defective and his parent or guardian appeal to the Board.
  (4) The special report above mentioned shall be a special report as to the mental and bodily condition of the defective made, in the case of a person detained in an institution, by the medical officer of that institution, and in any other case by a duly qualified practitioner, and shall be accompanied by a certificate under his hand that the defective is still a proper person to be detained in his own interest in an institution or under guardianship, and the person sending the special report shall give to the Board such further information concerning the defective to whom the special report relates as they may require.
  (5) A certificate under the hand of the secretary to the Board that an order has been continued to the date therein mentioned shall be sufficient evidence of the fact.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "report" ["such special report"] and insert the word "reports."
  After the word "mentioned" ["hereinafter mentioned"], insert the words "and the report of any duly qualified medical practitioner who, at the request of the defective or his parent or guardian, or any relative or friend, has made a medical examination of the defective."
  In Sub-section (3), after the word "such" ["on such reconsideration"], insert the words "consideration and."
  In Sub-section (4), after the word "be" ["shall be a special report"], insert the words "(a) A special report by the visitors made within one month after having seen the defective as to his mental condition and the means of care and supervision
  2576
  which would be available if he were discharged, and stating whether in the opinion of the visitors the defective is still a proper person to be detained in his own interest in an institution or under guardianship; and (b)."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (4), after the word "qualified" ["a duly qualified practitioner"], insert the word "medical."
  Mr. BOOTH: I want to be quite sure about this Amendment. I take it that it is an Amendment for the protection of the defective person, and that the examination will not be made on the medical side only.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): My, hon. Friend has correctly viewed the purpose of the Amendment.
  Lords Amendment agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "under his hand" [" a certificate under his hand."]
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 12.—(Duration of Detention not Under Orders.)
  (1) Where a defective has been placed by his parent or guardian in an institution or under guardianship it shall be lawful for such parent or guardian to withdraw him from the institution or guardianship at any time on giving notice in writing for the purpose to the Board, unless the Board, after considering what means of care and supervision would be available if he were discharged, determine within seven days that the further detention of the defective in the institution or under guardianship is required in the interests of the defective and where the Board have so determined no further notice by the parent or guardian shall be allowed till after the expiration of six months from the last previous notice.
  (3) The managers of any certified institution, or house, or any approved home may discharge any defective placed there by his parent or guardian on giving seven days' notice to the Board.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "seven days" ["determine within seven

  2577
  days"], and insert instead thereof the words fourteen days after receiving the notice."
  In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "seven days" ["seven days' notice to the Board"], and insert instead thereof the words "one month."
  After the word "Board" ["notice to the Board"], insert the words "and to the parent or guardian of the defective, if known."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 13.—(Power to Recover Expenses.)
  (1) Where an order that a defective be sent to an institution or be placed under guardianship has been made under this Act, the judicial authority which made the order or any other judicial authority, or, where the order is not made by a judicial authority, any judicial authority, may, on the application of the petitioner, or of the managers of the institution or the guardian, as the case may be, or of an officer authorised by the local authority, make an order requiring the defective or any person liable to maintain him, to contribute such sum towards the expenses of his maintenance in the institution or of his guardianship, or, in the event of his death in the institution of his funeral expenses and any charges incidental thereto, including the cost of conveyance to the institution, as, having regard to the ability of the defective or person liable to maintain him, seems reasonable.
  (4) Where a defective has been placed by his parent or guardian in an institution or under guardianship any suns which the parent or guardian has agreed to contribute towards the expenses of the maintenance or guardianship of the defective shall be recoverable summarily as a civil debt.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "or" ["or in the event of his death"], and insert instead thereof the words, "and any charges incidental thereto, including the cost of his conveyance to the institution, and."
  Leave out the words "expenses and any charges incidental thereto, including the cost of conveyance to the institution."
  In Sub-section (4), after the word "agreed" ["has agreed to contribute"], insert the words "in writing."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 15.—(Power to Remove to Place of Safety Pending Presentation of Petition.)
  Sub-section (2) If it appears to a justice on information on oath laid by an officer or other person authorised by the local authority that there is reasonable cause to believe that a defective is neglected or cruelly treated in any place within the jurisdiction of the justice, the justice may issue a warrant authorising any constable named therein, accompanied by the medical officer of the local authority or any other duly qualified medical practitioner named in the warrant, to search for such person, and if it is found that he is neglected or cruelly treated, and is defective, to take him to and place him in a place of safety until a petition can be presented under this Act, and any constable authorised by such warrant may enter, and if need be by force, any house, buildings, or other place specified in the warrant, and may remove such person therefrom.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2), after the word "is" ["and is defective"], insert the word "apparently."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 16.—(Transfers from Institutions for Defectives to Institutions for Lunatics and vice versa.)
  (1) Where the mental condition of a person detained in an institution for defectives becomes or is found to be such that he ought to be transferred to an institution for lunatics, the Board, or the managers of the institution for defectives with the consent of the. Board, shall cause such steps to be taken as may be necessary for having a reception order under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, made in respect of him and for his removal to an institution for lunatics: Provided that where such person has been placed in the institution by his parent or guardian, the Board or managers, as the case may be, shall not cause such steps to be taken until they have given the parent or guardian an opportunity of taking them himself.
  (2) Where the mental condition of a person detained in an institution for lunatics is found to be such that he ought to be transferred to an institution for defectives, the Board, or the managers of the institution for lunatics with the consent of the Board, shall cause such steps to be taken

  2579
  as may be necessary for having an order that he be sent to an institution for defectives made under this Act in respect of him and far his removal to such institution.
  (3) The Board may, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, make regulations for carrying this Section into effect.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), after the word "guardian" ["have given the parent or guardian"], insert the words "wherever practicable."
  In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "shall" ["shall cause such steps"], and insert instead thereof the word "may."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 17.—(Provisions as to Religious Persuasion.)
  Sub-section (4) Where an order is made: for sending a defective to an institution which is not conducted in accordance with the religious persuasion to which he belongs, the nearest adult relative, or in the case of a child his guardian or person entitled to his custody, may apply to the Board to remove or send the defective to an institution conducted in accordance with the defective's religious persuasion, and the Board shall on proof of the defective's religious persuasion comply with the request of the applicant; provided that the applicant must show to the satisfaction of the Board that the managers of the institution named by him are willing to receive the defective.
  Lords Amendment: At the end of the Clause, insert the words "and that the institution is one suitable to the ease."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.
  Lords Amendment:—
  After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause:—
  "The nearest adult relative or the guardian of a defective in an institution or under guardianship under this Act shall be entitled to visit the defective at such times and at such intervals (not exceeding six months) and on such conditions as may be prescribed, except where, owing to the character and antecedents of the person proposing to visit the defective, the Board consider that such a visit would be contrary to the interests of the defective."
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: I contemplate some difficulty as to the interpretation of the words "nearest adult relative." It is not "relative" or "relatives." I think it will be very hard to say whether, for instance, a father or mother is the nearest adult relative to a child, or which of several adult children might be regarded as the nearest adult relative. It seems to me that you want the words "or relatives," otherwise how are you going to determine who is the nearest adult relative when you have more than one person in an equal degree of consanguinity?
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I gladly recognise that nearly all the Amendments we are now considering which have been made in the House of Lords are advances towards individual liberty, and therefore safeguards, which we owe to Lord Salisbury's Amendments in the other place; but I am a little doubtful about this Amendment. When the Bill was going through the House, I understood from the Home Secretary that there would be drawn up by him regulations which would give very free access to these defectives, not only to their parents or nearest adult relatives, but to their families. I hope the effect of this Amendment will not be that this right of access will be allowed merely to certain specified persons. It is of the utmost importance, if these institutions are to be really homes, that the right of access to the children and to the grown-ups should be as easy as practicable. I should like to have some word from the Home Secretary as to the possibility of these defectives being let out for week-ends and allowed to see their friends and relatives. I am inclined to think the Amendment as it stands provides that the conditions under which the people will be in these institutions will be more prison-like than the Home Secretary originally intended.
  Mr. McKENNA: That was precisely the reason why on a former occasion I thought it advisable to invite the House not to accept an Amendment of this kind, not that I in the slightest degree object to the Amendment, but inasmuch as the proposal put into an Act of Parliament must necessarily in the circumstances of the case be a minimum proposal. It always has the effect of conveying the impression that the actual words of the Statute limit what is going to be done. I can assure my hon. Friend that that is not so. There will be occasions under the rules for visits suitable to the particular condition of every

  2581
  patient. In a great many cases the patients will not only be at liberty to go outside the institutions for week-ends, but they will come out daily. There will be nothing in the nature of a prison in these institutions. These words are inserted here to give a statutory right to visits of a particular kind, but it must not be understood for one moment that the statutory minimum includes the whole of the people who can make visits to patients in an institution. With regard to the objection taken by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. C. Bathurst), I think the word "nearest" might well be construed as meaning a relative than whom there was no nearer relative; consequently relatives in an equal degree of consanguinity would all be regarded as the nearest.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Am I right in supposing this will be interpreted as meaning "relative or relatives"?
  Mr. McKENNA: Certainly; it will be the father or mother, or possibly both. It is a statutory minimum only. The rules will provide for the case mentioned by the hon. Momber.
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 21.—(Establish anent of Coinmissioners.)
  (7) There shall be paid to the Chairman a salary not exceeding eighteen hundred pounds a year and to such number, not exceeding eleven, of the Commissioners as the Secretary of State, with the consent of the Treasury, may determine, such salaries or other remuneration as the Secretary of State, with the like consent, may fix: Provided that in the case of the Commissioners other than the Chairman such salary shall not exceed the sum of fifteen hundred pounds a year, but may begin at such lower sum as the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury may fix.
  Lords Amendments:
  In Sub-section (7), leave out the words, "a salary not exceeding eighteen hundred pounds a year."
  Mr. BOOTH: It is nearly a year ago that the Home Secretary did not see his way to fix a limit in regard to the salary of the Chairman, and it seemed as if it might be £2,000 or £2,500. I take it that the Home Secretary agrees with this sum being inserted. Does he think he can get a suit-
  2582
  able man? At whose instance was it inserted.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is only a drafting change. It is struck out here and has been inserted in another place.
  In Sub-section (7), after the word "that" ["Provided that in the case of"], insert the words "in the case of the Chairman such salary shall not exceed eighteen hundred pounds a year and"
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 24.—(General Powers and Duties of Commissioners.)
  Sub-section (1)—paragraphs (e) provide and maintain institutions for defectives of criminal, dangerous, or violent propensities; (g) make annual reports and such special reports as the Secretary of State may from time to time require.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In paragraph (e), leave out the word "criminal."
  In paragraph (g), after the word "reports" ["annual reports"], insert the words "to be presented to Parliament."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 27.—(Committees for the Care of Defectives.)
  (1) Every local authority shall constitute a committee for the purposes of this Act, to be called the committee for the care of the mentally defective, consisting of such members of the council appointed by the council as the council may determine, and of such persons, not being members of the Council, but being Poor Law guardians or other persons having special knowledge and experience with respect to the care, control, and treatment of defectives, appointed by the council as the council may determine, and of the persons so appointed some shall be women, and of the whole committee the majority shall be members of the council:
  Provided that where a local authority has appointed one or more visiting committees or asylums committees under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, then if the council so determine—

  (a) such committee or committees shall act also as the committee for the care of the mentally defective, and in such cases there will be added to each committee at least two women; or

  2583

  (b) the members of such committee or committees shall be the members of the council appointed by the council to be members of the committee for the care of the mentally defective.

  Lords Amendments:—
  Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), at the beginning, insert the words "the members of."
  In the same paragraph, after the word "shall" ["committees shall act also"], insert the words "with the addition of at least two women."
  In the same paragraph, leave out the words "and in such cases there will be added to each committee at least two women."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 29.—(General Powers and Duties of Local Authorities.)
  The local authority are hereby empowered, and it shall be their duty, subject to the provisions of this Act and to regulations made by the Secretary of State—

  (a) to ascertain what persons within their area are defectives subject to be dealt with under this Act otherwise than at the instance of their parents or guardians;

  (b) to provide suitable supervision for such persons, or if such supervision affords insufficient protection, to take steps for securing that they shall be dealt with by being sent to institutions or placed under guardianship in accordance with this Act;

  (c) to provide suitable and sufficient accommodation for such persons when sent to certified institutions by orders under this Act, and for their maintenance therein, and for the conveyance of such persons to and from such institutions;

  (d) to make provision for the guardianship of such persons when placed under guardianship by orders under this Act;

  (e) if they think fit, to maintain in an institution or approved home or contribute towards the expenses of maintenance in an institution or approved home or the expenses of guardianship of a defective;

  2584

  (f) if they think fit, to provide for the burial of such persons dying in an institution or when placed under guardianship in accordance with this Act;

  (g) to appoint or employ sufficient officers and other persons to assist them in the performance of their duties under this Act;

  (h) to make to the Board annual reports and such other reports as the Board may require:

  Provided that—

  (i) nothing in this Act shall be construed as imposing any obligation on a local authority to perform the duties mentioned in paragraphs (b), (c), (d), and (g) aforesaid where the contribution out of moneys provided by Parliament under this Act towards the cost of income account of performing such duties is less than one-half of the net amount (as approved by the Board) of such cost;

  (ii) nothing in this Act shall affect the powers and duties of Poor Law authorities under the Acts relating to the relief of the poor, with respect to any defectives who may be dealt with under those Acts, nor the right of Poor Law authorities to receive the same Grant for a defective who has been, or may be, sent to an institution, that they would have received if the Idiots Act, 1886, had not been repealed; nor shall local authorities under this Act have any duties with respect to defectives who for the time being are being provided for by such authorities as aforesaid, except to such extent as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State with the concurrence of the Local Government Board:

  (iii) Nothing in this Act shall affect the powers and duties of local authorities under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, with respect to any defectives who may be dealt with under those Acts, nor shall local authorities under this Act have any duties or powers with respect to defectives who for the time being are, or who might be, provided for by such authorities as aforesaid except to such extent as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor:

  2585

  (iv) nothing in this Act shall affect the duties or powers of local education authorities under the Education Acts; and the duty of ascertaining what children over the age of seven and under the age of sixteen (hereinafter referred to as defective children) are defectives shall rest with the local education authority as hereinafter provided and not with the local authority under this Act; and such last mentioned authorities shall have no duties as respects defective children, except those whose names and addresses have been notified to them by the local education authority under the provisions of this Act.

  Lords Amendment: In paragraph (a), leave out the words "at the instance of their parents or guardians," and insert instead thereof the words "under paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section two of this Act."
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: It seems to me this is rather an important Clause as to the duty of the local authority making up the list. I want to know whether it gives them very extended powers to inquire into better class households or not?
  Mr. McKENNA: No; it makes no change in the Bill at all, but is merely a drafting Amendment.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In paragraph (e), leave out the words "a defective," and insert instead thereof the words "any defectives other than aforesaid."
  In paragraph (f), leave out the word "such" ["the burial of such persons"].
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 33.—(Special Provisions as to Lancashire.)
  (1) If the council of the county of Lancaster and the councils of the county boroughs represented on the Lancashire Asylums Board so agree, that Board shall be the local authority for the purposes of this Act for that county and those county boroughs, and the provisions of the Lancashire County (Lunatic Asylums and other Powers) Act, 1891, as to expenses, borrowing, accounts, and audit shall
  2586
  apply accordingly in substitution for the provisions as to the like matters contained in this Act.
  Lords Amendment: Leave out the words, "If the council of the county of Lancaster and the council of the county boroughs represented on."
  Lords Amendment. agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "so agree, that Board shall," and insert instead thereof the words "shall, as respects the county of Lancaster and the county boroughs represented on the said Board."
  Mr. BOOTH: There was an Amendment to include the West Riding of Yorkshire because they have a Board exactly like the Lancashire Asylums Board, and they were also to be treated exactly alike.
  Mr. McKENNA: No, the West Riding of Yorkshire were cut out of the Clause in Committee upstairs, as I understand, at their own request.
  Question, "That this House cloth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 34.—(State Institutions.)
  (1) The Board, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, may establish and maintain institutions for defectives of criminal, dangerous, or violent propensities (in this Act referred to as State institutions), and for that purpose the Secretary of State may cause to be transferred to the Board the whole or any part of any building vested in the Prison Commissioners or otherwise under the control of the Secretary of State, or may, with the approval of the Treasury, authorise the Board under this Act either to acquire any land or erect or acquire any building.
  (2) For the purposes of this Act the Board shall be deemed to be the managers of State institutions.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), leave out the. word "criminal" ["criminal, dangerous, or violent."]
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 37.—(Power of Local Authorities to Establish or Contribute to Institutions, etc.)
  (1) A local authority may, subject to the approval of the. Secretary of State—

  2587

  (a) undertake or combine with any other local authority in undertaking, or contribute such sums of money upon such conditions as they may think fit towards, the establishment, building, alteration, enlargement, rebuilding, or management of institutions certified or intended to be certified under this Act or the purchase of any land required for the use of a certified institution or for the site of an institution intended to be certified under this Act; and

  (b) contract with the managers of any certified institution for the reception and maintenance in the institution of persons for whose reception and maintenance the local authority are by this Act required or authorised to make provision;

  (c) contribute towards the expenses of the guardianship of any person placed or ordered to be placed under guardianship.

  Lords Amendment: Leave out the words, "(c) contribute towards the expenses of the guardianship of any person placed or ordered to be placed under guardianship."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 39.—(Visitors of Institutions.)
  (1) The persons appointed under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, to act as visitors of licensed houses, with the addition of one or more women appointed in like manner as such visitors, shall be the visitors of institutions for defectives under this Act, and the number of persons appointed to be visitors of licensed houses under those Acts shall be such as may be considered necessary to perform the duties of visitors of institutions for defectives under this Act as well as the duties of visitors of licensed houses under those Acts, and their duties under this Act shall be taken into consideration in determining the remuneration, if any, of the visitors and clerks to visitors.
  (2) In all places where no persons are so appointed to act as visitors of licensed houses a sufficient number of persons, with the addition of one or more women, possessing the like qualifications as such visitors shall be appointed in like manner as such visitors to act as visitors of institutions for defectives, and a clerk to such visitors shall be appointed in like manner as in the case of the clerk to the visitors
  2588
  appointed under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, and the expenses of visitors so appointed, including the remuneration, if any, of any visitors and clerks to visitors, shall be defrayed in like manner as the expenses of visitors under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911.
  (3) The visitors of institutions for defectives shall perform such functions as are assigned to them by this Act and such further functions in connection with the visitation of institutions and of the patients therein, and with respect to the discharge of such patients and their after care and otherwise, as may be assigned to them by regulations of the Secretary of State under this Act.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "with the addition of one or more women."
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Is this merely a drafting Amendment? What is the object in leaving out these words? I see they appear in the previous Sub-section, and unless the words "possessing the like qualifications" following the words to be left out are intended to cover within the term qualifications that of sex, which I should have thought was rather stretching the words, I do not quite see the object of the omission of these words. Surely it is still desired that the visitors should include one or more women!
  Mr. McKENNA: If the hon. Member will look at the Amendment next on the Paper, he will see it is merely inserting the words after visitors instead of in the middle of the line. There is no alteration in the meaning of the Bill.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendments:
  After the word "visitors" ["like qualifications as such visitors"], insert the words "with the addition of one or more women."
  In Sub-section (3), after the word "therein" ["and of the patients therein"], insert the words "and of defectives under guardianship."
  Leave out the word "patients" ["discharge of such patients"], and insert instead thereof the word "defectives."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 40.—(Regulations as to Management of Institutions for Defectives, etc.)
  (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations as to—

  (a) the granting, transfer, renewal, revocation, and resignation of certificates for institutions;

  (b) the management of institutions;

  (c) the classification and treatment of patients in institutions, their instruction, and their employment in suitable occupations, and the reports to be made as to their mental condition;

  (d) the inspection of institutions and the visitation of patients therein by the Board and inspectors and other persons;

  (e) the notification to the Board of the admission of a patient to an institution;

  (f) the transfer of patients from one certified institution to another, and from a State institution to a certified institution, and, in cases appropriate to State institutions, from a certified institution to a State institution;

  (g) the discharge of patients from institutions;

  (h) the absence of patients from institutions under licence or temporarily without licence;

  (i) the notifications to be made by the managers in the event of the outbreak of an infectious disease in an institution and in the event of the death of a patient in an institution or absent therefrom under licence;

  (j) the conveyance of persons to and from institutions;

  (k) the burial of persons dying in institutions;

  (l) the powers and duties of persons appointed guardians of defectives under this Act; the reports to be made by such guardians as to defectives under their guardianship; the visitation of such defectives; and their discharge from guardianship;

  (m) the granting, renewal, and revocation of approval of homes for defectives;

  (n) the holding of inquiries and any other matter necessary or proper for the carrying into effect of the provisions of this Act with respect to institutions, and the inmates thereof, and to guardianship;

  2590

  (o) the application, as respects any matters to be dealt with by regulations, of any of the provisions of the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, dealing with the like matters, subject to the necessary modifications and adaptations;

  (p) the study of improved methods of treating mental deficiency by duly qualified practitioners in the institutions.

  Lords Amendments:—
  In paragraph (c), at end, add the words "and otherwise in respect to them."
  In paragraph (p), leave out the words "by duly qualified practitioners in the institutions."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 42. —(Ascertainment of Local Authority Responsible for Providing Accommodation, etc.)
  (1) Where a person is ordered to be sent to a certified institution or to be placed under guardianship, the local authority-responsible for providing accommodation' for that person or making provision for his guardianship as the case may be, shall be the council of the county or county borough in which he resided (to be specified in the order), and the duties of that council shall include, in the case of a person ordered to be sent to a certified institution, the duty to provide for his conveyance to, and reception and maintenance in, such an institution.
  (2) An order that a person be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship shall not, where a council will by virtue of this Act become responsible for providing for the conveyance, reception and maintenance of that person in an institution, or making provision for his guardianship, as the case may be, be made unless that council have been given an opportunity of being heard, or, if the order is made by the Secretary of State, of making representations to him.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2), at end, add the words "and if room is available in an institution suitable for the defective provided by the responsible authority, an order shall not, without the consent of that authority, be made for sending the defective to any other institution."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 43.—(Determination of Residence.)
  (1) Where the order is made in respect of a person found guilty of an offence, that person shall for the purposes of the provisions of the last preceding Section be presumed to have resided in the place where the offence was or was alleged to have been committed, unless it is proved that he resided in some other place:
  Provided that where the order is made by a Court of Assize or Quarter Sessions the Court shall remit to a Court of Summary jurisdiction for the place where the person is committed for trial the determination of his place of residence.
  (2) Where the order is made by the Secretary of State, then—

  (a) if the order is in respect of a person in a prison, criminal lunatic asylum,,or place of detention, that person shall for the purposes of the foregoing provisions of this Section be presumed to have resided in the place where the offence was or was alleged to have been committed, unless it is proved that he resided in some other place;

  (b) if the order is in respect of a person in an inebriate reformatory or reformatory or industrial school, that person shall for the purposes of the foregoing provisions of this Section be deemed to have resided in the place (if any) determined to have been his place of residence for the purposes of his committal to the inebriate reformatory or reformatory or industrial school.

  (3) Where a council are aggrieved by a decision as to the place of residence of any person, they may within three months after the making of the order apply to a Petty Sessional Court acting in and for such place as may be prescribed, and that Court, on proof to its satisfaction that the person in respect of whom the order was made was resident in the area of some other council, and after giving such other council an opportunity of being heard, may transfer the liability to that other council, and may order that other council to repay the first-mentioned council any expenses incurred by them in respect of the person in question, and an appeal shall lie from the decision of the Court to a Court of Quarter Sessions; but nothing in this provision shall affect the liability of the first-mentioned council under the original order until an order made transferring the liability to another council comes into force.
  (4) In the case of doubt as to where a person resides the expression "place of residence" in this Section shall be construed as the county or county borough (as the case may be) in which the person would, if he were a pauper, be deemed to have acquired a settlement within the meaning of the law relating to the relief of the poor; and the expression "resided" as used in this Section and;n Section forty of this Act shall be construed accordingly.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), after the word "prison" ["a person in a prison"], insert the words "inebriate reformatory."
  Leave out the words "foregoing provisions of this," and insert instead thereof the words "provisions of the last foregoing."
  In paragraph (b), leave out the words an inebriate reformatory or."
  Leave out the words "foregoing provisions of this," and insert instead thereof the words "provisions of the last foregoing."
  Leave out the words "inebriate reformatory or."
  In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "and the expression 'resided' as used in this Section and in Section forty of this Act shall be construed accordingly."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 44.—(Superannuation of Officers.)
  (1) The Asylums Officers' Superannuation Act, 1909, shall apply to the officers of certified institutions provided by local authorities, with the substitution of references to the managers of such institutions for references to visiting committees of asylums, and with such other adaptations and modifications as the Secretary of State may by order prescribe, and in particular such modifications may include the alteration of—

  (a) the periods of service entitling to superannuation allowances;

  (b) the scale of superannuation allowances;

  (c) the scale of contributions.

  Lords Amendment; In paragraph (b), at end, add the words "and gratuities."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 49.—(Provisions as to Approved Homes.)
  (1) The managers of any institution wherein defectives are received and supported wholly or partly by voluntary contributions or by applying the excess of payments of some patients for or towards the support of other patients, and any person desirous of receiving defectives in his house for private profit may apply to the Board to approve the institution or house, and the Board, if satisfied of the fitness of the premises and of the applicant, may if they think fit on payment by the applicant of such fee (if any) as may be prescribed grant their approval subject to such conditions as to inspection, the making of reports, and otherwise as they may think fit, and any such approval shall continued valid for the period for which it is granted or until withdrawn under this Act, and an institution or house so approved is in this Act referred to as an approved home.
  Lords Amendments:—
  Leave out the word "institution" ["The managers of any institution "], and insert instead thereof the word "premises."
  Leave out the word "institution" ["to approve the institution"], and insert instead thereof the word "premises."
  Leave out the word "premises" ["fitness of the premises"], and insert instead thereof the word "same."
  Leave out the words "an institution" ["and an institution or house"], and insert instead thereof the words "any -premises."
  Leave out the word "is" ["is in this Act referred to"], and insert instead thereof the word "are."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 50.—(Offences with Respect to the Reception, and Detention of Defectives.)
  (1) It shall not be lawful for a person without the consent of the Board to undertake the care and control of more than one person who is a defective, or who is placed under his care as being a defective elsewhere than in an institution, a certified house, or an approved home, and if any person contravenes this provision he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
  (2) Where a person undertakes the care and control of any person who is a defective or is placed under his care as being a
  2594
  defective elsewhere than in an institution, a certified house, or an approved home he shall within forty-eight hours after the reception of such person give notice thereof in the prescribed form to the local authority and to the Board, and if he fails to do so he shall be guilty of an offence under this Act.
  (3) If any manager of any institution for defectives, or the owner of a certified house, or the guardian of a defective, detains a patient or exercises any of the powers conferred upon him by this Act after he has knowledge that those powers have expired, he shall be guilty of a iris-demeanour.
  (4) Nothing in this Section shall apply to or affect any person who under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, or the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Acts, 1899 and 1913, receives or detains any person in accordance with those Acts, notwithstanding that the person so received and detained is a defective within the meaning of this Act.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "Acts, 1899 and 1913," and insert instead thereof the words "Act, 1899, as amended by any subsequent enactment."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 55.—(Protection of Defectives from, Acts of Sexual Immorality, Procuration, etc.)
  (1) Any person—

  (a) who unlawfully and carnally knows, or attempts to have unlawful carnal knowledge of, any woman or girl under care or treatment in an institution or certified house or approved home, or whilst placed out on licence therefrom or under guardianship under this Act; or

  (b) who procures, or attempts to procure, any woman or girl who is a defective to have unlawful carnal connection, whether within or without the King's Dominions, with any person or persons; or

  (c) who causes or encourages the prostitution, whether within or without the King's Dominions, of any woman or girl who is a defective; or

  (d) who, being the owner or occupier of any premises, or having or acting or assisting in the management or con-

  2595
  trol thereof, induces or knowingly suffers any woman or girl who is a defective to resort to or be in or upon such premises for the purpose of being unlawfully and carnally known by any man, whether such carnal knowledge is intended to be with any particular man or generally; or

  (e) who, with intent that any woman or girl who is a defective should be unlawfully and carnally known by any man, whether such carnal knowledge is intended to be with any particular man or generally, takes or causes to be taken such woman or girl out of the possession and against the will of her parent or any other person having the lawful care or charge of her;

  shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to be imprisoned, with or without hard labour, for any term not exceeding two years, unless he proves that he did not know, and had no reason to suspect, that the woman or girl was a defective.
  (2) Section ten of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, shall apply in the case of a woman or girl who is a defective in the same manner as it applies in the case of a girl who is under the age of sixteen years.
  (3) Without prejudice and in addition to the provisions of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1880, no consent shall be any defence in any proceedings either under this Section, or for an indecent assault upon any defective, if the accused knew or had reason to suspect that the person in respect of whom the offence was committed was a defective.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section. (3), leave out the words "either under this Section, or."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 64.—(Transfer to Board of Powers and Duties of Lunacy Commissioners.)
  (1) All the powers and duties of the Commissioners in Lunacy under the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911, shall, as from the commencement of this Act, be transferred to the Board, and His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that anything which under those Acts is required or authorised to be done by, to, or in respect of any one or more Commissioners in
  2596
  Lunacy or any officer of those Commissioners shall, be done by, to, or in respect of one or more Commissioners under this Act, or the corresponding officer of the Board:
  Provided that nothing in such Order in Council shall authorise anything by those Acts required to be done by two Commissioners, one a medical practitioner and the other a barrister, to be done otherwise than by two Commissioners, one a medical and the other a legal Commissioner.
  Lords Amendment: At end, add the words "but the order may provide that in the case of the temporary illness or disability of a medical or legal Commissioner the Lord Chancellor or the Secretary of State (as the case may be) may appoint a person qualified to be a medical or legal Commissioner to act as substitute so long as the illness or disability continues."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 67.—(Provisions as to Regulations)
  Regulations made under this Act shall be laid before Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and shall have effect as if enacted in this Act.
  Lords Amendment: After the word "and" ["after they are made, and shall"], insert the words "if within thirty sitting days after they have been so laid either House of Parliament presents an Address to His Majesty praying that any such regulations may be annulled, His Majesty may, by Order in Council, annul the regulations, without. prejudice, however, to anything done thereunder, and the regulations made under this Act."
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: This is a very important Clause dealing with the procedure which has to be gone through before the regulations drawn up by the Board become law, and I want to hear from the Home Secretary a description of exactly what powers the ordinary private Member has who objects to any of these regulations, whether there are any powers they possess under the Clause as it is now amended to prevent regulations being passed which we consider undesirable from the point of view of freedom. How exactly can we get an Address presented to His Majesty? I realise that regulations cannot be passed while the House is not sitting, but what procedure has to be gone through? How can a private Member secure time to have the question debated?
  Mr. BOOTH: Surely this puts the procedure exactly like the regulations under the Insurance Act, that any hon. Member can put down an Address to His Majesty, and it is exempted business, and he can bring it on.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: So far, good. He can put his Address on the Paper, but has that Address to be carried by a majority in this House and then by a majority in the other House, or is one House sufficient; and, further, is it any practical safeguard when we know how difficult it is for a private Member to get a majority? It seems to me that it is asking rather much to suppose the possibility of a private Member getting time to object to a regulation and then converting a majority of the House to his point of view. Any substantial protest against these regulations ought to be taken into account, and this should depend not upon the ipse dixit of the Government, which is the case at present, but it should be taken into account from the point of view of modifying the regulations. An Address can only be an Address against the whole regulation, and that regulation cannot be modified by means of an Address. I am not quite satisfied with the powers possessed by the House. In the ordinary case it is all very well to say the regulation is approved or disapproved, but there may be a great deal in the regulation that the House as a whole approved of while disapproving of some details, and I should like to know whether it is possible to modify a regulation as well as to negative it altogether.
  Mr. McKENNA: In the last resort the opinion of the majority in this House must prevail, but the hon. Member is a very old and experienced Parliamentary hand, and he knows that any group of hon. Members have a right to raise the subject after eleven o'clock, and if they have got any substance at all in their objections they are nearly always in such a position as to enable them to make terms with the Government. Of course, it must be understood that if the Government comes to the conclusion, and is supported by the House in that view, that no change ought to be made in the regulation, the opinion of the House must win; but, on the other hand, my hon. Friend will have ample opportunity of expressing his views and bringing pressure to bear.
  Mr. BOOTH: I agree with this, because it grants a point that we urged very much upon the Home Secretary in Committee
  2598
  last year. The Clause as drawn only gives hon. Members the opportunity between eleven and half-past eleven on the Adjournment. That was the sole point. There may be some Division going on which will leave only a quarter of an hour. The complaint was that that was not a proper safeguard, merely to speak on the Adjournment Motion. In that way this enlarges it, so that Members may put down an Address to the Crown.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 70.—(Interpretation.)
  (1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
  The expression "prescribed" means prescribed by regulations made under this Act:
  The expression "parent or guardian" in relation to a defective shall include any person who undertakes or performs towards the defective the duty of a parent or guardian:
  The expression "relative" means a lineal ancestor or lineal descendant, or lineal descendant of an ancestor not more remote than great-grandfather or great-grandmother:
  The expression "intoxicants" includes any intoxicating liquor, and any sedative, narcotic, or stimulant drug or preparation:
  The expression "place of safety" means any workhouse or police station, any institution, any place of detention, and -any hospital, surgery, or other suitable place, the occupier of which is willing to receive temporarily persons who may be taken to places of safety under this Act:
  The expression "special school or class" means a special school or class within the meaning of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Act, 1899:
  The expressions "institution" and "institution for defectives" mean a State institution or certified institution:
  The expression. "State institution" means an institution for defectives of criminal, dangerous, or violent propensities established by the Board under this Act:
  The expression "certified institution" means an institution in respect of which a certificate has been granted under this Act to the managers to receive defectives therein, and includes, subject to the provisions of this Act, any premises provided by a board of guardians and approved under this Act:
  The expression "certified house" means a house in which defectives are received by the owner thereof for his private profit, and in respect of which a certificate has been granted under this Act:
  The expression "approved home" means an institution in which defectives are received and supported wholly or partly by voluntary contributions, or by applying the excess of payment of some patients for or towards the support of other patients, or a house in which defectives are received by the owner thereof for his private profit, and which has been approved by the Board under this Act:
  The expression "institution for lunatics" has the same meaning as in the Lunacy Acts, 1890 to 1911:
  The expression "board of guardians of a Poor Law Union" shall include the Metropolitan Asylums Board and any joint committee of a combination of unions constituted by order of the Local Government Board.
  (2) Cost on income account shall, as respects an institution provided by a local authority, include expenditure of income by the authority by way of interest on or repayment of capital raised, or by way of rent or other similar payment, for the purposes of the provision of the institution.
  Lords Amendments:—
  In Sub-section (1), after the word "means" ["The expression 'relative' means"], insert the words "the husband or wife or."
  Leave out the word "criminal" ["criminal, dangerous or violent propensities"]
  Leave out the words "an institution" ["'approved home' means an institution"], and insert the words "any premises."
  In Sub-section (2), after the word "expenditure" ["include expenditure of income"], insert the word "out."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  SCHEDULE.
  Powers and Duties of the Administrative Committee.
  1. The supervision of the administration by local authorities of their power and duties under this Act.
  2. The certification and approval of premises.
  3. The provision and maintenance of State institutions.
  4. The administration of Grants made out of moneys provided by Parliament under this Act.
  5. Such other powers and duties of the Board of an administrative nature as the Secretary of State or the Board may assign to the administrative committee.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (5), after the word "Board" ["duties of the Board"], insert the words under this Act."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Lords Amendment considered.
INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Registration of Society Consisting of Two or More Other Societies.)
  A society consisting solely of two or more registered societies may, notwithstanding anything contained in Section five of the principal Act, be registered if the application to register the society is signed by two members of the committee and the secretary of each of the constituent societies, and is accompanied by two printed copies of the rules of each such society.
  Lords Amendment: After the word "of" ["Section five of the principal Act"], insert the words "the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893 (in this Act referred to as)."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 6.—(Provisions as to Death Duties.)
  The principal Act shall have effect -with respect to the payment of duty on the death of members dying after the commencement of the Act as if the following provisions were substituted for Section 28 of the principal Act.
  Lords Amendment: Leave out the word "the" ["commencement of the Act"], and insert instead thereof the word "this."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 12.—(Short Title, Construction, Commencement and Repeal.)
  (2) This Act shall be construed as one with the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, and shall come into operation on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and fourteen.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "July," and insert instead thereof the word "January."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

BANKRUPTCY BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Prosecute Offences Summarily.)
  (1) Any offence under, or which may be dealt with as if it were an offence under, the Debtors Act, 1869, alleged to have been committed by a person who has been adjudged bankrupt, or in respect of whose estate a receiving order has been made, may. be prosecuted summarily, and if so prosecuted references in the enactments creating those offences to the jury shall be construed as references to a Court of Summary Jurisdiction:
  Provided that—

  (a) the maximum term of imprisonment, with or without hard labour, which may be awarded by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction for any such offence shall be six months; and

  (b) summary proceedings in respect of any such offence shall not be instituted after one year from the first discovery thereof either by the Official Receiver or by the trustee in the bankruptcy, nor in any case shall they be instituted after three years from the commission of the offence.

  Lords Amendment: In paragraph (b), after the word "bankruptcy" ["by the trustee in the bankruptcy"], insert the words "or, in the case of proceedings instituted by a creditor, by the creditor."

  CLAUSE 11.—(Dealings with Undischarged Bankrupt.)
  (1) All transactions by a bankrupt with any person dealing with him bona fide and
  2602
  for value and without knowledge of his bankruptcy, in respect. of property, whether real or personal, acquired by the bankrupt after the adjudication shall, if completed before any intervention by the trustee, be valid against the trustee, and any estate or interest in such property which by virtue of the enactments relating to bankruptcy is vested in the trustee shall determine and pass in such manner and to such extent as may be required for giving effect to any such transaction, and, where any such transaction is a transaction in the course of any trade or business carried on by the bankrupt, it shall be valid against the trustee, whether or net the person dealing with the bankrupt had knowledge of the bankruptcy. This Subsection shall apply to transactions with respect to real property completed before the commencement of this Act in any case where there has not been any intervention by the trustee before that date. For the purposes of this Sub-section the receipt of any money, security, or negotiable instrument from, or by the order or direction of, a bankrupt by his banker, and any payment made to, or by the order or direction of, a bankrupt by his banker, shall be deemed to be a transaction by the bankrupt with such banker dealing with him for value.

  (2) Where a banker has ascertained that a person having an account with him is an undischarged bankrupt then, unless the banker is satisfied that the account is on behalf of some other person, it shall be his duty forthwith to inform the trustee in bankruptcy or the Board of Trade of the existence of the account, and thereafter he shall not make any payments out of the account except under an order of the Court or in accordance with instructions from the trustee in bankruptcy, unless by the expiration of one month from the date of giving the information no instructions have been received from the trustee.

  (3) In the event of a second or subsequent receiving order being made against a bankrupt, any property acquired by him since he was last adjudged bankrupt which at the date when the subsequent petition was presented had not been distributed amongst the creditors in such last preceding bankruptcy, shall (subject to any disposition thereof made by the official receiver or trustee in that bankruptcy, without knowledge of the presentation of the subsequent petition and subject to the provisions of Sub-section (1) of this Section) vest in the trustee in the subsequent. bankruptcy, but any unsatisfied

  2603
  balance of the debts provable under the last preceding bankruptcy may be proved in the subsequent bankruptcy by the trustee in the last preceding bankruptcy.

  (4) Where the trustee in any bankruptcy receives notice of a subsequent petition in bankruptcy against the bankrupt, he shall hold any property then in his possession which has been acquired by the bankrupt since he was adjudged bankrupt until the subsequent petition has been disposed of, and if on the subsequent petition an order of adjudication is made he shall transfer all such property or the proceeds thereof (after deducting his costs and expenses) to the trustee in the subsequent bankruptcy.

  (5) Where a person has been adjudged bankrupt, nothing in any enactment relating to bankruptcy shall affect the rights of any person making title in good faith and for valuable consideration, and without knowledge of the trustee's title, through or under a person who has acquired from the bankrupt property which the bankrupt himself acquired after he was adjudged bankrupt.

  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "and without knowledge of his bankruptcy."
  Mr. C. BATHURST: I should like to ask for some explanation of the Amendment. As the Bill went to the Lords it was necessary to prove knowledge of bankruptcy in all cases except where the transaction was one in the course in the trade or business carried on by the bankrupt. It appears now that it will not be necessary to prove knowledge of bankruptcy in any case whatever, whether it is in respect of the business carried on by the bankrupt or otherwise. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give some explanation of what appears to be a, somewhat material alteration.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): This Amendment was promised on the Report stage in this House to the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Cassel). It gives effect to concessions promised to be made by the Board of Trade. This is the form in which it has been considered proper to make it.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendments:—
  Leave out the words "and, where any such transaction is a transaction in the
  2604
  course of any trade or business carried on by the bankrupt, it shall be valid against the trustee, whether or not the person dealing with the bankrupt had knowledge of the bankruptcy."
  After the word "payment" ["and any payment made"], insert the words "and any delivery of any security or negotiable instrument."
  Leave out the words "(5) Where a person has been adjudged bankrupt, nothing in any enactment relating to bankruptcy shall affect the rights of any person making title in good faith, and for valuable consideration, and without knowledge of the trustee's title, through or under a person who has acquired from the bankrupt property which the bankrupt himself acquired after he was adjudged bankrupt."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 15:—(Protection of Sheriff, etc, Selling Goods under Execution Without Notice of Claim by Third Party.)
  Where any goods in the possession of an execution debtor at the time of seizure by a sheriff, high bailiff, or other officer charged with the enforcement of a writ, warrant, or other process of execution, are sold by such sheriff, high bailiff, or other officer, without any claim having been made to the same, the purchaser of the goods so sold shall acquire a good title to the goods so sold, and no person shall be entitled to recover against the sheriff, high bailiff, or other officer, or anyone lawfully acting under the authority of either of them, except as provided by the Bankruptcy Acts, 1883 and 1890, for any sale of such goods or for paying over the proceeds thereof, prior to the receipt of a claim to the said goods: Provided that nothing in this Section contained shall affect the right of any claimant who may prove that at the time of sale he had a title to any goods so seized and sold to any remedy to which he may be entitled against any person other than such sheriff, high bailiff, or other officer aforesaid.
  Lords Amendment: After the word "goods" ["claim to the said goods"], insert the words "unless it is proved that the person from whom recovery is sought had notice, or might by making reasonable inquiry have ascertained that the goods were not the property of the execution debtor."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 28.—(Application of Part I. where Receiving Order made under Section 103 (5) of Principal Act.)
  Lords Amendment: Leave out Clause 28. Lords Amendment agreed to.
  Lords Amendment: After Clause 34, insert:—

  NEW CLAUSE A.—(Preferential Payment to Creditor an Offence.)
  "If a trustee under a deed of arrangement pays to any creditor out of the debtor's property a sum larger in proportion to the creditor's claim than that paid to other creditors entitled to the benefit of the deed, then, unless the deed authorises him to do so, or unless such payments are either made to a creditor entitled to enforce his claim by distress or are such as would be lawful in a bankruptcy, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour."
  Lords Amendment: After Clause 40, insert the following:—

  NEW CLAUSE.—(Application of Act when Receiving Order made under 46 and 47 Vict. c. 52, s. 103 (5).)
  "When a receiving order is made against the debtor under Sub-section five of Section one hundred and three of the principal Act, this Act shall apply as if for references to the presentation of a petition by or against a person there were substituted references to the making of such a receiving order."
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  CLAUSE 41.—(Short Title, Commencement, and Interpretation.)
  (2) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and fourteen.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "January," and insert instead thereof the word "April."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

  SECOND SCHEDULE.
  Section 8 (1).—The words "except when the Court in accordance with rules under
  2606
  the principal Act otherwise directs" shall be inserted after the words "the application shall."
  Lords Amendment: After the word "shall" ["the application shall"], insert the words "where those words last occur."
  Lords Amendment agreed to.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRE LAND) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered.
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRE LAND) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Substitution of School Inspection for Public Examination in the Case of Students under Fourteen.)
  Sub-section (1) From and after the commencement of this Act, the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland (in this Act referred to as "the Board ") shall not hold any public examination admission to which is confined to students under the age of fourteen years.
  Lords Amendment: After the word "of" [commencement of this Act"], insert the words "Section one of."
  Amendment agreed to.
  After Clause 1 insert—

  NEW CLAUSE.—(Powers to Grant Super annuation Allowance.)
  "The Board shall, in addition to the powers given to them by Section three of the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1900, have power, with the approval of the Treasury, to make a scheme providing for the grant of superannuation and other allowances or gratuities to or for the benefit of such of the assistant commissioners, and of the inspectors, clerks, and other officers employed by the Board, as may be from time to time approved by the Treasury, and may out of the funds at their disposal, pay to such persons on retirement, or to their legal personal representatives on death, such superannuation and other allowances or gratuities under the scheme as the Treasury may sanction in each case, and the Treasury may determine those funds to be public funds for the purposes of the Superannuation Act, 1892."
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed, to.

POST OFFICE BILL.
Lords Amendment considered.
POST OFFICE BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of Provisions as to Registration of Newspapers to News papers Published in British Possessions on Protectorates.)
  The provisions of the Post Office Act, 1908, relating to the registration of newspapers and registered newspapers shall apply to publications printed and published in a British possession or protectorate as they apply to publications printed and published in the British Islands, and accordingly paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section twenty of the Post Office Act, 1908 (which relates to the publications which may be registered as a newspaper), shall be read as if the words "or in some British possession or protectorate" were inserted after the words, "in the British Islands":
  Provided that the Postmaster-General may refuse to register as a newspaper a publication printed and published in a British possession or protectorate, unless arrangements have been made to his satisfaction for maintaining a responsible representative of the publication in the United Kingdom.
  Lords Amendment: At the end of the Clause, add the words "For the purposes of this provision, the expression 'British Protectorate' shall be deemed to include the Malay States and Cyprus."
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

WIBSEY (BRADFORD) INDEPENDENT CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
PADIHAM HOREB UNION CHURCH CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

HULME TRUST ESTATES CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

HULME TRUST ESTATES CHARITY BILL.
  SCHEDULE.
  Scheme for the Application or Management of the Hulme Trust Estates (Non-Educational).
  SCHEDULE.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Sale of Superfluous Benefices.)
    The Trustees of the charity shall as soon as practicable, regard being had to the obtaining of a fair' pirce, sell otherwise than by auction the advowsons and rights of patronage of the benefices specified in the Schedule hereto belonging to the charity. The Trustees may do and execute all proper acts and assurances for carrying the sales into complete effect.
    Mr. KING: I beg to move, to leave out the words "otherwise than by auction."
    One of the purposes of this Bill is to sell thirteen advowsons which are now in the hands of certain trustees. I will not go into the reasons for that, but I may say something on the matter on the Third Reading of the Bill. I strongly object to advowsons being sold in any other way than by auction. First of all, unless they are sold in that way, you cannot be sure that you are going to get the best possible price. If trustees are to be empowered to sell to friends or the friends of friends, we may have jobbery, and if we have not jobbery, we shall have the possibility of it, and if we have not the possibility, we shall, at any rate, have the suspicion of jobbery. To all forms of jobbery I am opposed. The second reason why I object to sale otherwise than by auction is equally obvious and equally cogent. It is that we hope that as much money as possible will be obtained by the sale of these advowsons, and you cannot say that you have got the best possible price unless you advertise them well and put them up to auction. The trustees at present have about £8,000 invested in Consols, which is a fund for the purpose of advertising, and for the selection of candidates for the advowsons. They have far more than they need to advertise the sale in fifty papers. I, therefore, most strongly urge the Committee to consider this point, and I very earnestly hope that the Charity Commissioners will see that there is a great deal of substance in my point, and that they will accept the

    2609
    Amendment. If the hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. Allen) wants to have the thing fair, square, and above board, let us have open sale by auction. If he wants to have suspicion all the way round, and opportunities for jobbery, then he will stand by the Pill as drafted.
    Mr. C. P. ALLEN: I hope that the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King) will not persist in pressing the Amendment. First of all, it is liable to complicate the Bill and to cause another stage just at the end of the Session. I hope he will understand that the Bill is the result of a long series of negotiations in which neither the Commissioners nor the other side have been able to get all they want, because we know, when we come down here, if anybody objects, we have no chance of passing the Bill. There may be some points in the Bill the Commissioners do not like, or which the other side do not like. It is only by careful negotiation that we ever get anything at all. Personally, I do not care for the buying and selling of livings at all, but we are in this Bill doing a certain amount of what may be evil in order that good may come.
    Sir WILLIAM ANSON: I would remind the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud that an Act was passed by this House long ago by which the sale of livings was forbidden under penalty. At any rate, the trustees will be able in this case to see that the person who buys a living will really use it conscientiously for the benefit of the people. You have no such guarantee if you sell by auction, and therefore it is really of importance that the living should be sold to a conscientious person who is going to do his best all round.
    Mr. KING: Under the conditions of sale references as to the character of the buyer are necessary before the advowson is conveyed to him.
    Sir WALTER ESSEX: I support the appeal made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Allen. I am rather surprised that my hon. Friend (Mr. King) should advocate the vulgar and debasing system of disposing of these properties by putting them up to auction without having any safeguards that the person buying should have some other qualifications than the mere ability to offer the highest price. I venture to say that by the method proposed by the Charity Commissioners there will be some
    2610
    opportunity of inquiring into the character-of the person. I appeal to the hon. Member to retrieve his good character by withdrawing the Amendment.
    Mr. KING: I was about to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. I have some scruples, and I have also some character left in spite of what has been said by my hon. Friend.
    Amendment., by leave, withdrawn. Bill reported without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    Mr. KING:I shall not oppose the Third Reading of the Bill, but it is so interesting and so illuminating in its story that it is impossible to allow it to pass away from this House without sonic tribute to its extraordinary character being given. The Bill has a curious history which shows one fact which is often denied by hon. Members on the other side of the House, and which is constantly asserted by those who know the truth, namely, that the Established Church has again and again robbed the poor for the benefit of the parson. The history of this charity is this: In 1691, a gentleman in Lancashire left large estates there for the poor students of Brasenose College that they might continue their education, and take the Master of Arts degree. That was the sole purpose of this trust, and for 100 years it was carried on on these lines. The estates then became very valuable, and they did not know exactly what to do with the money, so the clergy of that day came forward with plans which they brought before this House in the form of Bills. Bills were passed in 1760, 1770, and 1795, by which a large number of livings were purchased for members of Brasenose. College, and the value of those livings were augmented to a large extent out of the invested and accumulated funds of these charities left for the benefit of the poor students. They were given to the clergy for the rest of their lives so long as they held these livings. That is the history of what has been going on. I point that out in order that it may be realised that the sweeping assertions which have been made, and may be made again, that the Church of England has robbed the poor and has robbed education for the sake of the parson has got a great deal of ground in actual examples. I con-

    2611
    gratulate most heartily the Charity Commissioners who have had a great deal of trouble over this Bill. I think that if I had been a Charity Commissioner I would have obtained still more for education, and left less for the parson. But, still, I congratulate them on having made a settlement, and having got back an amount of money which had been in the hands of the clergy by selling these advowsons, and giving it back as scholarships. I may point out that in recent years they have not had a sufficient number of clergy coming forward as candidates to fill all these livings, but I merely mention these facts to show that this is a very remarkable Bill, and ought not to go without the House knowing something of the striking circumstances connected with it. I have great pleasure in supporting the Motion for the Third Reading.
    Sir W. ANSON: I do not think that the House should accept without qualification the statement as to the history of this trust which the hon. Member for Somerset has given us. Under the trust the Hulme exhibitioners and the members of Brasenose must be chosen in fulfilment of the trust before they can go any further. Therefore, the choice of the trustees is circumscribed. It requires time to ascertain whether there is any man qualified under the terms of the trust, and delay has been occasioned by this inquiry. The livings are mostly in industrial centres with large populations, and it is very desirable that the area of choice should be enlarged as it is by this Bill, and also that the difficulties of the trustees should be reduced by the sale of a certain number of the livings.
    Colonel GREIG: I desire to draw attention to what the Bill actually does. The money to be applied under this Bill arises from the sale, under the scheme appended to the Bill, of advowsons, the sale of superfluous benefices mentioned in the Schedule. In the next Section of the scheme there is power to the trustee of the trust to apply certain stock which is in their hands. I find in that Clause that they are dealing with the sum which represents part of £8,600 Consols retained by them to meet expenses incurred in connection with the ecclesiastical trust referred to. I then find in Section 6 the objects to which these proceeds can be applied. They are to be applied as if the same were part of the residue, mentioned in Clause 7 of the Board
    2612
    of Education (Hulme Trust Estates Educational) Confirmation Act of 1907, of the Brasenose College share of income of the foundation which is called the Hulme Trust Estates (Educational). I find that these funds are to be applied for the augmentation in number and value of scholarships, lectureships, and other offices of the college, payment for special duties in the college, and subsequent payment towards research by members of the college, whether graduates or undergraduates, payment by way of pecuniary assistance to any resident member of the college under the degree of M.A. who may, in the judgment of Brasenose College, be in need of such assistance, or payment by way of pension or contribution to the pension fund. I draw attention to this to point out that we should be careful of what we are doing with funds which were originally applied for ecclesiastical purposes, and now under this Bill are being applied to what are purely secular purposes.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

ROE STREET (MACCLESFIELD) CONGREGATIONAL CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
HATFIELD (YORK, WEST RIDING) CALVINISTIC CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
KINGSWOOD CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
GREAT HAYWOOD AND TOMPKIN CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELS CHARITY BILL.
Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
PRESTON, SOUTHPORT, AND GATLEY CHAPELS CHARITY BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Thursday).
BOSDEN WESLEYAN TRUST PROPERTY CHARITY BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Thursday).
BOURNEMOUTH HOSPITALS CHARITY BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Thursday).
ALFRISTON CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Thursday).

BISHOPRICS OF SHEFFIELD, CHELMSFORD, AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SUFFOLK BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

BISHOPRICS OF SHEFFIELD, CHELMSFORD, AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SUFFOLK BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Application of 41 & 42 Vict. c. 68.)
  The Bishoprics Act, 1878 (in this Act referred to as the principal Act), including the repealed portions thereof, shall, subject to the modifications set forth in the First Schedule to this Act, have effect for the purpose of the foundation of new bishoprics of Sheffield, of Chelmsford, and of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich as if the Second Schedule to this Act were substituted for the Schedule to the principal Act and as if the principal Act had become law on the date on which this Act is passed.
  Mr. KING: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  7.0 P.M.
  I desire to make a short statement in,order Ito get a pledge from one or two Members, and I will not press the Amendment which I have on the Paper, nor will I press the new Clauses which I have already handed in at, the Table. The cir-
  2614
  cumstances are sufficiently remarkable to warrant the course which I have taken. This Bill was one of the earliest introduced this Session. No fewer than seven Members gave notice to reject it. Personally, I am not opposed to the creation of more bishoprics, and I do not, therefore, wish to oppose the main object of this Bill. I sympathise very largely with the objects of certain Members not now present, who communicated with me on the subject, that this Bill ought not to be allowed to pass without something being said from their point of view—that bishops are all right when they keep to their proper line, and when they try to do as much good as they can for all without being partisans. Personally, I should like to have moved a Clause that no bishop appointed under an Act should ever sit in the House of Lords, for 1 think that would be a benefit to the bishop, to the lords, and to everybody. I want, however, to appeal very strongly to Members opposite who are interested in this Bill, to give a pledge that in pursuance of an arangement by which these Charity Bills are put through they will permit those which are already introduced, or will be introduced to the number of sixteen altogether, to go through at an early date next Session as unopposed measures. I hope the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil), will see that the request I make is a fair one. But I would remind him that there are hon. Members opposite who are very urgent and insistent champions of what they consider the rights of the Church, and who might perhaps find themselves unable to act with the Noble Lord in any assurance he might give. But I see that there are two Noble Lords opposite. Besides the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, there is the Noble Lord the Member for the Newton Division (Viscount Wolmer). I am prepared to take their united pledge, which would be binding on the whole of hon. Members on their side, that they will allow the Bills to go through. I hope I shall also get some pledge from the Government that they will use their powers to get the Bill through at an early date next Session. I might point out that those Charity Bills to which I refer are by no means all Nonconformist Bills. There are fourteen Chapel Bills and three Bills relating to the Church, and, if you take the fourteen Chapel Bills against the three Bishoprics Bills, in-

  2615
  eluding that upon which we are at present engaged, you get one bishop as worth four chapels and two-thirds of a chapel. That is very highly complimentary to both sides; and if one or both of the Noble Lords signify their approval of my proposal, I shall withdraw my Motion to report Progress, and allow the Bill to go through without debate.
  7.0 P.M.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: The hon. Membar has made an appeal to me to which I am very glad to respond. The right hon. Gentleman who represents the Charity Commissioners on these matters has shown me a report giving a summary of the Bills, and so far as I am concerned the arrangement suggested seems unobjectionable. So far as my Noble Friend and myself are concerned, if we can facilitate the passage of those Bills next Session we shall certainly do so.
  Mr. BOOTH: I want to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Charity Commissioners to consider a suggestion which I make in regard to these Bills in the future. They are merely taken as public Bills because of the large expense which would be involved, sometimes in cases where they cannot be afforded, if they were introduced as private Bills. The House, therefore, can understand why the Charity Commissioners are obliged to bring them in as public Bills; it is to avoid expense. It does seem to me that some means might be devised to deal with these measures rather than that they should be dealt with in this haphazard way at the end of the Session. I would suggest that some recognised authority might take them in hand at the beginning of the Session and go through with them. I think that would facilitate the necessary legislation. I have no definite proposal in my own mind, but I understand the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Charity Commissioners receives many severe complaints from Nonconformist bodies, who really cannot understand why it is that they cannot get their Bills through. They are always putting pressure upon him, and he has always to get the Bills through in this way towards the end of the Session. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can make some suggestion in regard to the procedure on these Bills.
  Mr. C. P. ALLEN: It is perfectly true we are constantly having to make appeals
  2616
  in order to get these Bills through at the end of the Session, and it is a serious matter. The suggestion has passed through my mind—I do not know if it is of any value or not—that at the beginning of each Session a Committee of Members should be formed, the Opposition having a majority of Members upon it, in order to facilitate the passage of these Bills. The Second Reading can only be taken after eleven o'clock, and the Bill could then be referred to that Committee. I am quite sure that the Chief Charity Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioners would be only too glad to give any information to that Committee, which would report upon any Bill. The Bill would then come down to the House, and I am quite sure that in 999 cases out of a thousand the Committee of the House would not be kept more than five minutes over any one Bill. To speak candidly, there are cases where I should like to see Bills properly discussed either in Committee upstairs or in some other way I throw out this suggestion, which perhaps will receive consideration.
  Mr. KING: I ask leave to withdraw my Motion to report Progress.
  Motion to report Progress, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

SECOND SCHEDULE.
  Part III.—Bishopric for Suffolk.

    CLAUSE 2.—The diocese of St. Edmunds- bury and Ipswich to consist (subject to the provisions contained in the First Schedule as to rearrangement of boundaries) of the administrative counties of East Suffolk and West Suffolk.
    Sir EDWARD BEAUCHAMP: I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "except the rural deanery of Lothingland."
    There is a general desire that there should be another Bishopric for Suffolk, but there is one part of the county of Suffolk, that part which I represent, the rural Deanery of Lothingland, which would like to be brought within the Bishopric of Norwich, which is nearer than the cathedral town of Bury St. Edmunds or Ipswich. There is a good train serive to Norwich, which can be reached very quickly, and there is not a single incumbent of the rural Deanery of Lothingland

    2617
    who has not asked to be excluded from the nek Bishopric of Suffolk and to be left in the Diocese of Norwich. I have been assured by the Noble Lord in charge of the Bill that it is not really necessary to move this Amendment, and that my moving it might imperil the progress of the Bill. I am assured that a scheme has been prepared for the rearrangement of boundaries, and that it might be possible to include the rural Deanery of Lothingland in the diocese of Norwich. I merely formally move my Amendment with a view to getting some assurance on the subject.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: I think the hon. Member quite correctly understood me. I cannot express any opinion on the precise merits of the change of boundaries, because I am not familiar with the local circumstances, but I am quite sure that under the third Clause of the First Schedule such a scheme can be made, and therefore it is unnecessary to insert any provision in the Bill. If the Commissioners make the scheme in the sense indicated, I imagine that great weight would
    2618
    be placed on local opinion. I am sure it is quite unnecessary to move the Amendment, and if it were pressed it. would imperil the Bill.
    Sir E. BEAUCHAMP: I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: I have to express my acknowledgment to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and to hon. Members opposite for the graceful spirit they have exhibited in respect to this Bill and to the other Bills.
    Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 22nd July, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at Thirteen minutes after Seven o'clock.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
  SANATORIA(LANARKSHIRE).
  SANATORIA(LANARKSHIRE).
  OFFICIAL STATISTICS (WALES).
  OFFICIAL STATISTICS (WALES).
  POSTMASTERS AND SUB-POSTMASTERS.
  POSTMASTERS AND SUB-POSTMASTERS.
  MEDICAL BENEFIT.
  MEDICAL BENEFIT.
  Board of Education (Minor Staff Clerks).
  Board of Education (Minor Staff Clerks).
  Customs and Excise (Statistical Office).
  Customs and Excise (Statistical Office).
  Civil Servants (Convalescence).
  Civil Servants (Convalescence).
  Finance Act, 1909 (Provisional Valuations).
  Finance Act, 1909 (Provisional Valuations).
  Arigna Valley Railway Bill.
  Arigna Valley Railway Bill.
  Pensions (Commutation).
  Pensions (Commutation).
  Land Inquiry Committee (Report).
  Land Inquiry Committee (Report).
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Women School Teachers (Ireland).
  Women School Teachers (Ireland).
  Dingle Pier, County Kerry.
  Dingle Pier, County Kerry.
  Dispensary Officers (Ireland).
  Dispensary Officers (Ireland).
  Police Tax, County Sligo.
  Police Tax, County Sligo.
  Irish Land Acts.
  Irish Land Acts.
  Irish Education Commissioners.
  Irish Education Commissioners.
ROYAL NAVY.
  NINTH CRUISER SQUADRON (SHORE LEAVES.
  NINTH CRUISER SQUADRON (SHORE LEAVES.
  Education Bill,
  Education Bill,
  Director of Public Instruction (Bengal).
  Director of Public Instruction (Bengal).
  Small Holdings (Scotland).
  Small Holdings (Scotland).
  Insurance Business (Scotland).
  Insurance Business (Scotland).
  Telephone Service.
  Telephone Service.
  Children in Workhouses (England and Wales).
  Children in Workhouses (England and Wales).
  Tramcar and Omnibus Traffic (Greater London).
  Tramcar and Omnibus Traffic (Greater London).
  Miners' Wages (United Kingdom).
  Miners' Wages (United Kingdom).
  Royalties and Wayleaves (Belgium, France, and Germany).
  Royalties and Wayleaves (Belgium, France, and Germany).

COMPANIES (CONSOLIDATION) ACT, 1908, AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
FORGERY (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

ANCIENT MONUMENTS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
ALEXANDRA PARK AND PALACE BILL. [H.L.]
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
MORLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
WESTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) RAILLESS ELECTRIC TRACTION BILL.
WESTMINSTER HOSPITAL BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ADJUSTMENTS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 8 KTNGSTOWN) BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have suspended any further proceedings on the Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8 Kingstown) Bill [H.L.], and to request that their Lordships will concur in such suspension: The said Message to be considered To-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No: 21) BILL.
Consideration of Commons Message (which stands appointed for this day) put off till To-morrow.

POST OFFICE (LONDON) RAILWAY BILL.
Debate on the Amendment moved on Report yesterday resumed (according to Order).
The following amended Amendment stood on the Paper in time name of the Earl of Craven—
Clause 6, at end insert the following new sub-sections:
"(2) The Postmaster-General may lay down along the railway, and maintain and use cables, mains, lines, and apparatus for transmitting electrical energy for the purpose of working and lighting the railway and for use in any part of any post office building in communication with the railway by means of a shaft or in the buildings of the Post Office in or near St. Martin's-le-Grand and Queen Victoria, Street in the city of London and Mount Pleasant Clerkenwell or in any extension of any such building within a distance of fifty yards and for the purpose of general telegraphic (including telephonic) communication.
"(3) The Postmaster-General may transmit, transform, and use for the purposes of this Act electrical energy generated or transformed at any Post Office generating station or sub-station, and for the transmission of such electrical energy may lay down and maintain all necessary and convenient cables, mains, lines, and apparatus, but nothing in this Act shall authorise the Postmaster-General to use such electrical energy for lighting or heating any part of any post office building other than the buildings and extensions of buildings mentioned in the preceding subsection.
"(4) The Postmaster-General may enter upon and open and break up streets and other public places for flu- purpose of laying down and maintaining cables mains lines and apparatus—

"(a) from any post office generating station or sub-station to the railway; and

"(b) for any distance not exceeding fifty yards for the purpose of connecting any portion or extension of any such building as is referred to in subsection (2) of this section with any other portion or extension thereof or with any other such building as aforesaid;

subject however to the following provisions and restrictions, that is to say:—

"(a) He shall with all convenient speed complete the work on account of which he opened or broke up the same, and fill in the ground and make good the surface, and generally restore the street or place to as good a condition as that in which it was before being opened or broken up, and carry away all rubbish occasioned thereby;

"(b) He shall in the meantime cause the place where the street or public place is opened or broken up to be fenced and watched, and to be properly lighted at night;

"(c) He shall pay all reasonable expenses of keeping the street or public place in good repair for twelve months after the same is restored, so far as such expenses may be increased by such opening or breaking up.

"(5) The Postmaster-General and any company, authority, or person having power under any Act of Parliament or Order confirmed by Parliament to supply electrical energy may make and carry into effect agreements and arrangements for the supply of electrical energy to the Postmaster-General for the purposes of this Act, and for executing any works or providing any apparatus necessary for the purposes of such supply, but nothing in this subsection shall authorise any such company, authority, or person to break up the surface of any public street or place.
"(6) The Postmaster-General shall invite tenders for the supply of electrical energy for the railway from the companies and local authorities who are empowered to give such supply, and if he is satisfied that, taking all the circumstances into account, an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office by taking a supply from any such company or local authority, the Postmaster-General shall do so."—(The Earl of Craven.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When your Lordships had this Bill under discussion last evening it will be remembered that there was a difference of opinion as to whether the Amendment moved on behalf of His Majesty's Government should be agreed to, and as the result of a conversation it was suggested to the noble Marquess who leads the House that he should modify the Amendment to some extent and bring up new words this afternoon. There are a certain number of printed copies of such new words so proposed upon your Lordships' Table, but I do not know that all the members of the House have had an opportunity of considering them. In any case I do not propose to discuss them as I am not responsible for the words, but to invite His Majesty's Government to explain the meaning of the alterations in the Amendment as it is now on the Paper.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, I understand that the actual wording has been the subject of general negotiation and that there is reason to suppose that the words as they now stand will meet with general approval. But I think in a case like this we may not unfairly ask the members of the Select Committee who considered this Bill whether, having seen the words which are now suggested by His Majesty's Government, they think that they fairly meet the objections which were taken by the Select Committee. I see present more than one noble Lord who was on the Committee by whom this Bill was considered, and I am sure your Lordships would wish in a case, like this to be guided by their opinion and also by the
1904
opinion of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees. I understand that the present wording covers all that it is necessary should be taken into consideration, and that the circumstances which the Postmaster-General is to take into account are those which affect actual economy in money.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): The noble Earl has accurately stated the position in which we find ourselves. There have been discussions during the last hour with regard to the drafting of subsection (6) as it now stands on the Paper, which I have no doubt is intended to carry out the undertaking which was made yesterday. The first point on which discussion has focussed has been the words, "The Postmaster-General shall invite tenders for the supply of electrical energy for the railway." Your Lordships will, of course, realise that the decision of the Committee went further than the supply of the electrical energy for the railway alone. The clause covered the supply of electricity for other purposes. I am informed that the only new supply that would result from this Bill if passed in this form, in addition to the railway would be that to five post offices, and that those five post offices could only be reached by the Post Office themselves through this railway, and therefore it is practically certain that whoever supplied the electrical energy for the railway would have to supply these post offices unless they continued to be supplied by outside companies. The word "railway" is defined in a very wide manner at the end of the Bill, and I have no doubt that the words as drafted would be as wide as is desirable.
But as to the other words "taking all the circumstances into account" I confess I feel some difficulty in being satisfied with their inclusion in the subsection. The words are "and if he is satisfied that, taking all the circumstances into account, an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office." If it were quite certain that the circumstances were merely circumstances of saving, I should be satisfied; but I feel there is danger under the present drafting that the circumstances might be circumstances of general policy. It might be sufficient for the Postmaster-General to say to himself "It is my settled policy, and I believe it to be desirable that all the

1905
electrical supply should be in My hands." I do not believe that this is tile intention of the Postmaster-General now, but I am afraid that under the actual words of the proposed new subsection (6) might find himself in that position, and I do not think it is a desirable position in which to put him in view of what is now happening. I should myself have liked it best if those six words had not been included in the subsection, unless they could be altered and it could be made clear in that alteration exactly what is in the mind of the Post Office. But, of course, I am subject to the guidance of what your Lordships desire in the matter.
LORD WELBY: I am in rather a difficulty as I have only just seen these amending words; but after the manner in which the case of the Post Office was put before the Committee I think that anything which limits rather than extends the powers of the Post Office is desirable. I am extremely anxious that effect should be given to this proposal in a sense that will make it obvious that the Postmaster-General has to establish the economy of the plan which he proposes, and with that view I support the Lord Chairman in thinking that the words which he suggested should be struck out should be deleted. There is a very great difference between a private undertaking and a public undertaking. The private undertaker is brought to book at the end of a year by a profit and loss account. The public undertaker is subject to no such test. Therefore it is the obvious duty of Parliament to insist, in the case of any undertaking by which a Government Department becomes the manufacturer, that the plan as put forward by the Department should be an economical one. I, for one, was not satisfied from the evidence put before the Committee that that was the case. On the whole I prefer that the Bill should stand in the shape in which we passed it. But in view of what has been said I am perfectly content to agree to the Amendment if the words referred to by the Lord Chairman are omitted.
LORD GORELL: I had an opportunity of discussing the matter yesterday with my noble friend Lord Newton, the Chairman of the Select Committee by whom this Bill was considered, and who is unable to be here to-day. So far as the general principle is concerned he and I concur.
1906
We are prepared to accept the course now proposed, since it entirely vindicates the action taken by the Committee of which we were members. With regard to the words in question, I also agree with the Lord Chairman and with the noble Lord who has just spoken that it is desirable that they should be omitted. The impression conveyed to me was that the only question which had been considered by the Post Office was whether by this scheme a Departmental saving would be effected, and I am afraid that if these words are included that consideration will be given undue weight. That is to say, there may not really be given adequate consideration to whether there would be a real saving, but weight would probably be given to the fact that if the Post Office undertaking is given this added load it would effect some saving on the present basis. For that reason I venture to think it would be desirable to eliminate words which might lend themselves to allowing such considerations to arise. It should be laid down that there must be a definite actual saving by obtaining the supply from the Post Office generating stations rather than from companies or others.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): I must apologise to the House for not having been here when this discussion began, but I was detained elsewhere on business which I found it impossible to leave until the moment that I did. I am glad to find that this proposed new subsection meets in its general bearing the objections which were raised by various noble Lords to the clause as it stood, and I hope it may be assumed, therefore, that the House will agree to its insertion. As regards the question of the particular words, the matter is not one of the first importance, although I have no doubt that the Post Office would prefer that the subsection should remain in the form in which I have it here, on the ground that the terms are such as would ordinarily be inserted in a clause of this kind where, for instance, a private enterprise was concerned.
The noble Lord on the Cross Benches (Lord Gorell) has drawn a distinction between a Public Department and a private company in a matter of this kind, and, as I understand it, it is desired by him and

1907
by other noble Lords that the Subsection should read thus—
"and if he is satisfied that an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office by taking a supply from any such company or local authority, the Postmaster-General shall do so,"
leaving out the words "taking all the circumstances into account." On that I do not quite follow the argument which the noble Lord on the Cross Benches used, because he, if I understood him rightly, stated that the question was not so much whether the saving was to the Post Office or a saving to the public generally and to the general finances of the country; yet the words "to the Post Office" appear to be unchallenged. Surely it must be the fact that if the saving is to the Post Office it is also to the finances of the country as a whole. What the particular bearing of such a saving may be on the special estimates which the Department may bring forward is a purely domestic matter which concerns the relations of the Department with the Treasury, but the thing that concerns us and the public is what the saving may prove to be as a whole. I confess I do not see that there would be any risk in retaining the words "taking all the circumstances into account"; for this reason. The whole transaction, after the interest which has been aroused by the action of noble Lords upon it, is bound to take place in the public eye. It may be assumed that Question after Question will be asked in another place as to what precisely is occurring, what tenders the Postmaster-General has received, what the amount of those tenders may be, and what the saving thereby would be as compared with the Post Office supply. Therefore I venture to think that what my right hon. friend does or does not take into account in arriving at a conclusion that there is a saving will be fairly well known to the public, and in those circumstances I cannot see any real risk in retaining the words. At the same time I am not disposed to lose the clause for the sake of these words, although I think that the omission of them shows a mistrust of Departmental action which, perhaps, is hardly worthy of your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I was not in the House when this clause was proposed, but I have had the advantage of reading it since, and I hope that the House will support the Lord Chairman in moving the omission from subsection (6)
1908
of the words "taking all the circumstances into account." Those words, if they mean anything, mean a whittling down of the clause and leaving it more and more to the entire discretion of the Postmaster-General as to what he will do. Surely without those words quite sufficient is left to the Postmaster-General, because he is to invite tenders and to be satisfied that an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office. I confess that if I had been on the Committee and this clause had been placed before me I should have considered that the clause as drafted, without those words, almost left it to the Postmaster-General to do what he liked. I venture to hope that the noble Earl will insist upon the omission of these words
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I should like to state, in order to put my attitude clearly before your Lordships, that my fear is that these words, if left in, will apply to things other than savings. That is the reason why I do not like the inclusion of these words.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Surely our object is to make this new clause as unambiguous as possible. What we desire to say to the Postmaster-General is that he is to make the best bargain he can for the public, and he is accordingly desired to satisfy himself that an appreciable saving will result to the Post Office by taking a supply from a company or a local authority. Surely those words by themselves are quite sufficient without the addition of a direction that he is to take all the circumstances into account. The words are apparently harmless enough, but they are open, I think, to this objection, that they really suggest the idea, as the noble Earl the Lord Chairman put it just now, that the Postmaster-General is to look outside the immediate circumstances of the case and to search for other subsidiary considerations which really ought not to weigh at all in the case we have to consider. I think, considering the view expressed by the members of the Committee who are here present to-night and by the Lord Chairman, your Lordships will do well to accept the new subsection (6), leaving out the words "taking all the circumstances into account."
On Question, Amendment agreed to, with the deletion from subsection (6) of the words "taking all the circumstances into account."
Clause 18:
Compensation for damage by working.
18.—(1) In addition to the provisions of the enactments incorporated with this Act with respect to compensation for lands taken or injuriously affected, the Postmaster-General shall make compensation to the owner, lessee, and occupier of any land, house, or building which is injuriously affected by reason of the working of the railway (including the working of lifts and any other works in connection with the railway), notwithstanding that no part of the property of such owner, lessee, or occupier is taken by the Postmaster-General:
Provided that all claims for compensation under this section shall be made within two years from the commencement of the working of the railway, or within two years from the time when any substantial change is made in the weight or size of the rolling stock used on or in the method of the working of that part of the railway where the injurious affection is alleged to have arisen, and all such claims shall be settled by arbitration.
(2) An arbitrator under this section may with the consent of all parties concerned hear together any class or group of claims under this section.
(3) For the purposes or this section the expression "land house or building" shall be deemed to include mains pipes valves plugs syphons and other apparatus of the Metropolitan Water Board and of the Gas Light and Coke Company and any electric lines and apparatus of any company authorised under the Electric Lighting Acts 1882 to 1909 to supply electrical energy within the administrative county of London.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Derby I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name, to substitute "five years" for "two years" at the beginning of the proviso to subsection (1). From the conversation which took place the other day your Lordships will be aware what my noble friend's point was, and on his behalf I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 18, page 16, line 9, leave out ("two years") and insert ("five years").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: This Amendment appears to have been suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Derby, under some misapprehension as to what the intention of the promoters of the railway is. The words as they are in the proviso run—
"Provided that all claims for compensation under this section shall be made within two years from the commencement of the working of the railway."
It seemed as though the noble Earl was under the impression that the commencement of the working of the railway meant
1910
the commencement of the works on the railway. That, of course, is not the case. The two years is from the time when the railway is actually working and in full operation, and it certainly does seem to the Post Office—and I confess I should have thought it was fairly clear to anybody—that two years would be a sufficient period in which to determine whether the actual working of the railway and the running of these curious little trains or trolleys in a tube caused any nuisance to those living in the houses near the route of the line. In these circumstances we are not prepared to accept the Amendment, and I cannot help thinking that were Lord Derby present and could hear the explanation which we have given he would not desire to press his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Before the Motion to read the Bill a third time is taken, I would ask your Lordships to make three small Amendments, which I can assure you are practically nothing more, except in one case, than setting right misprints. In page 52, line 4, the words "to prevent effectually" should read "to effectually prevent"; and in page 64, lines 4 and 5, I propose to omit the words "or to be acquired." I understand that that was agreed to in another place, but through a mistake in copying from one Bill to another the words were included in error. Then I have an Amendment in the Fourth Schedule, to substitute the number 26 for the number 25; this number occurs in a series of even numbers, designated as such. I move that these Amendments be agreed to.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Amendments agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 184.)

MENTAL DEFICIENCY AND LUNACY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, on the Motion to go into Committee it may be convenient if I state that since the discussion on the

1911
English Bill we have had the opportunity of going very carefully into the Amendments on the Paper to this Bill, and I am glad to say that I have reason to think that we can meet the views of noble Lords opposite completely. There are certain drafting Amendments which I propose to move myself, which are either pure drafting or are necessary to bring the Bill into harmony with what your Lordships have decided should be the case in the English Bill. Then there are certain Amendments to be moved by Lord Camper down which we think are improvements in the Bill. There is another Amendment which Lord Salisbury will move which I shall accept, as it will bring this Bill into harmony with what was done in the case of the English Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment standing in my name is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 16, leave out from ("Act") to the end of the line and insert ("in accordance with the provisions thereof hereinafter contained").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 18, after the second ("or") insert ("at the instance of his parent if, though not an idiot or an imbecile, he").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments standing in my name are merely to bring this Bill into harmony with the English Bill.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 19, leave out ("a") and insert ("the")
Page 3, line 27, leave out from ("offence") to ("liable") in line 29 and insert ("punishable in the case of an adult with penal servitude or imprisonment, or who is ordered or found").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: This Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 33, after the second ("or") insert ("the parent of a defective who, though not an idiot or an imbecile").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, after ("by") insert ("the Board or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is an Amendment to provide for the case of Perth, which has a lunatic department which is virtually a criminal lunatic asylum.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 32, after ("asylum") insert ("of the criminal lunatic department of a prison").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There are two Amendments to this clause, standing in my name and also in that of the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown. I am in entire agreement with the noble Earl, and I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 22, after ("relates") insert ("his parents or guardians and")
Page 7, line 23, after ("relates") insert ("or by his parents or guardians").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 8, line 11, after ("by") insert ("or on behalf of")
Page 8, line 12, leave out ("interested") and insert ("concerned")
Page 8, line 16, leave out ("interested") and insert ("concerned")
Page 8, line 23, after ("to") insert ("the local authority concerned if any and where practicable to the parent or guardian or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 24, leave out ("and to the local authority interested").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 27, after ("punishable") insert ("in the case of an adult").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 25, after ("days") insert ("after receiving the notice").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 6, leave out ("seven days") and insert ("one month's"), and after ("Board") insert ("and to the parent or guardian of the defective, if known").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Amendments moved—
Page 12,line 16, leave out the second ("or") and insert ("and any charges incidental thereto, including the expenses")
Page 12, line 17, leave out from ("funeral") to ("as") in line 18.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Amendments moved—
Page 12, line 35, after ("neglected") insert ("abandoned").
Page 13, line 2, after ("is") insert ("apparently")
Page 13,line 12, alter ("concerned") insert ("but shall, if an order is eventually made, be recoverable from the defective or any person liable to maintain him as if they were part of the expenses of his maintenance").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 23, after ("until") insert ("where practicable").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 25, after ("defective") insert ("and that the institution is one suitable to the case").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 18 to 25 agreed to.
Clause 26:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 14, leave out from ("sent") to ("and") in line 15.
Page 20, line 16, after ("institutions") insert ("to the extent hereinafter provided")
Page 20, line 27, leave out ("affect") and insert ("derogate from or diminish the powers of school boards under the Education of Defective Children (Scotland) Act, 1906, as read with the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, or")
Page 20, line 35, after ("Provided") insert ("also").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 12, leave out ("criminal").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of this Amendment is to provide for two institutions which already exist and are licensed under the Lunacy Act and which have to be brought in here to be made available. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 33, after ("institution") insert the following subsections:
"(2) Any institution for the care and training of imbecile children which at the commencement of this Act is licensed under section seven, of the Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1862, shall without certification become a certified institution for defectives under this Act unless and in so far as upon the application of the managers it may be certified under this Act as a certified house; and any person who immediately before the commencement of this Act is detained in such an institution may after such commencement continue to be detained therein in like manner and subject to the like conditions as prior to such commencement.
"(3) The managers of an institution (not being a certified institution provided for their district by a district board) shall not be bound to receive any defective whom they have not expressed their willingness to receive"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
Amendments moved—
Page 23, line 29, after ("condition") insert ("and otherwise in respect to them").
Page 24, line 15, after ("guardianship") insert ("or otherwise").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 25, line 14, leave out from ("Where") to ("the") in line 15 am insert ("the finding has been in respect of more than one offence")
Page 25, line 24, after ("asylum") insert ("or department, inebriate reformatory")
Page 25, line 30, leave out from the second ("in") to the second ("reformatory") in line 31 and insert ("a")
Page 25, line 32, leave out from ("foregoing") to ("section") in line 33.
Page 25, line 36, leave out ("inebriate reformatory or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36:
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 10, after ("allowances") insert ("and gratuities").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 37 to 39 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I desire to move the insertion of a new clause here which I believe the Government are prepared to accept. The object is to bring the Scottish Bill into conformity with the English Bill.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 39, insert as a new clause:
". The nearest adult relative or the guardian of a defective in any institution or under guardianship under this Act shall be entitled to visit the defective at such times, on such conditions, and at such intervals not exceeding six months, as may be prescribed by the Board, unless, in view of his character and antecedents the Board think that his visits would not be in the interests of the defective; provided that nothing herein contained shall be construed as limiting any power to grant further facilities for visits to defectives."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 43 agreed to.
Clause 44:
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 33, leave out ("manager") and insert ("superintendent").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 45 and 46 agreed to.
Clause 47:
Amendments moved—
Page 32, line 21, after ("guardianship") insert ("shall")
Page 32, line 23, after ("house") insert ("or to or from guardianship")
Page 32, line 24, after ("house") insert ("or to guardianship")
Page 32, line 25, leave out ("shall for that purpose").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 48 to 53 agreed to.
Clause 54:
Amendments moved—
Page 34, line 20, at the beginning of the line insert ("Without prejudice to the provisions of section ninety-three of the Act of 1857 or section twelve of the Act of 1866")
Page 34, line 28, after ("shall") insert ("without prejudice as aforesaid").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 54, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 55 to 62 agreed to.
Clause 63:
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 34, after subsection (3) insert as a new subsection:
"(4) All powers vested in a parish council of recovering monies expended in behalf of a poor person shall extend to the recovery by the parish council of such part of the said monies as is by this Act made payable by the district board."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 64:
Amendments moved—
Page 38, line 41, after ("Act") insert ("with respect to the assessments for the purposes of the Act of 1857").
Page 39, line 5, leave out ("levied by a parish council acting as a district board") and insert ("leviable under the Acts aforesaid within the parish")
Page 39, line 7, after ("levied") insert ("by the parish council acting as a district board").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 64, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 65 and 66 agreed to.
Clause 67:
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 26, after ("section") insert ("sixty-one and section").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 67, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 68 agreed to.
Clause 69:
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 12, leave out from ("houses") to ("as").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 70 to 74 agreed to.
Clause 75:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 13, after ("means") insert ("the husband or wife or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 76:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 28, after ("offence") insert ("for which no special penalty is provided by this Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 76, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 77:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 35, after ("and") insert ("if within thirty sitting days after they have been so laid either House of Parliament presents an address to His Majesty praying that any such regulations may be annulled, His Majesty may, by Order in Council, annul the regulations, without prejudice however to anything done thereunder, and the regulations made under this Act").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 77, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Page 45, third column, leave out lines 5 and 6, at beginning of line 8 insert ("section seven"), and leave out from beginning of line 12 to the end of the Schedule.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, as it is very desirable to get this Bill back to the House of Commons as early as possible, perhaps your Lordships would allow the subsequent stages to be dealt with now.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 185.)

APPELLATE JURISDICTION BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the only Amendments which the other House has made are privilege Amendments. This Bill, which we have been trying for a long time to get through, adds two Law Lords who will be available, not only for the service of this House, but for the service of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It also makes other facilities for the strengthening of the Privy Council. The Supreme Appellate Tribunal of the Empire will now be in a materially stronger position than before, and I think I can see, if any change is
1920
made in the constitution of this House, how we shall be within easy reach of such rearrangements as will give us a Supreme Tribunal of the Empire really worthy of the tremendous extent of the King's Dominions. The Bill, at all events, has cleared the road for those things; and your Lordships will have a full opportunity of considering them at a later stage, should it be, as I hope it will be, in the power of the Government to snake further proposals on the subject.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think I have a hereditary right to congratulate the Lord Chancellor on the passing of this Bill.
On Question, Commons Amendments agreed to.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
MISDESCRIPTION OF FABRICS BILL.
PUBLIC HEALTH (PREVENTION AND TREATMENT OF DISEASE) BILL.
FOREIGN JURISDICTION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT (1911) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19, after ("of") insert ("this Part of").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
LORD STRACHIE: The House will remember that Clause 8 deals with arrears. My Amendment provides a third method of meeting those arrears. In addition to suspension and reduction it also gives power of postponement.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 22, leave out ("suspension or reduction") and insert ("reduction, postponement or suspension").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 23, after ("reduction") insert ("postponement").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("suspension and reduction") and insert ("reduction, postponement and suspension").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 11 agreed to.
Clause 12:
LORD STRACHIE: This Amendment is not on the Paper. It is merely to correct a printer's error.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 10, after ("eight") insert ("of the principal Act").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 9, leave out ("of an insured person").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 10, after ("widow") insert ("of an insured person").—(Lord Strachie.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Would the noble Lord read the clause as it will now run?
LORD STRACHIE: It now runs, "Where the woman who is an employed contributor is the wife, or if the child is a posthumous child the widow, of an insured person."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I wish to thank the Government for the course they have taken with respect to this clause. I know it has been rather a contentious one, but the course they have chosen to adopt in agreeing to the Amendments made from the two sides in the House of Commons has, I think, given general satisfaction.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 13, leave out ("first proviso") and insert ("proviso (i)").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 17, leave out ("for the purposes aforesaid") and insert ("in the exercise of their powers under this proviso").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 4, after ("amendment") insert ("if").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 18, after ("benefits") insert ("and are not special voluntary contributors").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19:
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 32, leave out ("their") and insert ("the")
Page 11, line 33, after ("collection") insert ("of such contributions").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 12, leave out ("such person") and insert ("the master, seaman, or apprentice").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 24 to 28 agreed to.
Clause 29:
Amendment moved—
Clause 29, page 15, line 17, after ("committee") insert the following new subsection:
"(4) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act."—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30:
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 22, leave out ("by such name respectively").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 31 to 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 22, leave out ("exchanges") and insert ("takes in exchange").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36:
LORD STRACHIE: As my Amendment stands on the Paper it is, after "Act," to insert "and documents made thereunder." This is merely a drafting Amendment, and I want to alter the word "made" to "issued," so that it will read "and documents issued thereunder."
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 11, after ("Act") insert ("and documents issued thereunder").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 37 and 38 agreed to.
Clause 39:
LORD STRACHIE: As the clause now stands it only refers to a county council, and the object of the Amendment is to make it refer to a county borough council as well.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 28, after ("council") insert ("or county borough council").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 40:
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 41, after ("Act") insert ("or this Act").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 41:
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 33, leave out ("the principal") and insert ("this").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Amendments moved—
Page 21, line 4, after ("shall") insert ("save as otherwise expressly provided") and leave out ("such") and insert ("the first day of September nineteen hundred and thirteen or such later")
Page 21, line 5, leave out ("Insurance Commissioners") and insert ("Joint Committee")
Page 21, line 13, after subsection (3) insert as a new subsection:
"(4) The provisions of the principal Act mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed."—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule:
LORD STRACHIE: These Amendments to the First Schedule are consequential. I take the opportunity of thanking the noble Earl opposite for what he has said as regards this question of maternity benefit.
Amendments moved—
First Schedule, page 23, line 6, leave out from the second ("for") to ("transferred") in line 8, and insert ("continuing the right to payment of maternity benefit out of that fund until the man is")
First Schedule, page 23, line 9, leave out ("until he")
First Schedule, page 23, line 13, after ("sums") insert ("required").—(Lord strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 42, after the Second Schedule insert as a new schedule:

THIRD SCHEDULE
"Enactments Repeated.
"Subsection (4) of section one.
"Paragraph (a) of subsection (4) of section four.
"In subsection (5) of section eight the words('and at least fifty weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him').
"Subsection (3) of section nine.
"Subsection (6) of section ten.
"Proviso (i) of subsection (2) of section twelve.
"Subsection (1) of section eighteen, from ('but if in the case of a midwife being selected') to the end of that subsection.
"Subsection (3) of section forty-five.
"Section forty-nine.
"Table C of Part I of the Fourth Schedule."—(Lord Strachie.)
LORD STRACHIE: I might explain that Table C of Part 1 of the Fourth Schedule only deals with persons between 50 and 60, and the disability having been removed, that Table is no longer necessary.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, may I make an appeal to the House to allow this Bill to go through its subsequent stages now, in order that the Bill with the Amendments, although they are only drafting ones, may go back at the earliest moment to the other House.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Amendments reported: Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 186.)

HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (MEDICAL SERVICE) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.
TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order): Committee negatived, and Bills to be read 3a To-morrow.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
Report from with an Appendix made, and to be printed. (No. 187.)
House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed by the Lord COLEBROOKE.

FINANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Privy Seal (M. Crewe)). (No. 188.)
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow a quarter past Three o'clock.