Sitting of 11 December 1912

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Norfolk Fisheries Provisional Order Bill,
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 13) Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15) Bill.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH (WALES) BILL.
Mr. BURDETT-COUTTS: I beg to present eighteen petitions containing 3,153 signatures from residents in the Borough of Westminster praying the House not to pass into law the Established Church (Wales) Bill.
IMPORTS AND EXPORTS (UNITED KINGDOM AND CERTAIN FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
Return ordered, "showing the value of the goods wholly or mainly manufactured imported from the United Kingdom into France, Germany, Belgium, and Holland in the years 1881 and 1911, respectively; and the value of the goods wholly or mainly manufactured exported to the United Kingdom from each of these countries in the same years."—[Major Archer-Shee.]

TRAINING COLLEGES FOR TEACHERS.
Return ordered, "giving the names of the different institutions recognised by the Board of Education, differentiating between residential and day, between those for men and for women and for both together, and between denominational, undenominational, and those provided by local education authorities, together with the names of the authorities or denominations providing them, and the number of students, male and female, for which they are
424
recoginsed; also a supplement showing what colleges have been sanctioned by the board of education, and for what number of students, male and female, but which are not yet completed."—[Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson.]

SCOTTISH UNIVERSITIES (BURSARIES, ETC.).
Return ordered "of all Bursaries and Scholarships which may be held by entrant students while attending any of the Scottish Universities, or any of the colleges forming part of the Scottish Universities, distinguishing between those which are open only to entrant students and those which may be awarded either to an entrant student or* to a student who is in the second, third, fourth, or subsequent year of his University curriculum; and showing in the case of each such Bursary or Scholarship the name or names of the patron or patrons; the preferences or conditions, if any, by which the class of students eligible to hold the Bursary or Scholarship is limited; the total capital value of the funds mortified, accrued, or otherwise devoted to the endowment of the Bursary or Scholarship for each of the three academical years ended the 30th day of September, 1909, 1910, and 1911; the annual amount which the Bursary or Scholarship has yielded to the Bursar or Scholar for each of the three years above mentioned; and the period of tenure of the Bursary or Scholarship."—[Mr. Munro-Ferguson.]
TREATY SERIES (No. 23. 1912).
Copy presented of Exchange of Notes between the United Kingdom and Japan for the Reciprocal Waiver of Consular Fees on Certificates of Origin relating to Exports. Tokio, 26th/31st October [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. Fenwick reported from the Committee of Selection—That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Mr. Ramsay Macdonald; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Trade Unions (No. 2) Bill): Mr. Barnes.
Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LOEDS.
That they have agreed to—
Light Railways Bill, without Amendment.
Sheffield Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  ROYAL NAVY.

    GERMAN NAVY ESTIMATES, 1912–13.
    Mr. GODFREY COLLINSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can say the amount in the German Navy Estimates for 1912–13 for new construction, and the amount to be spent on the new shipbuilding programme for 1912–13?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill): The amount voted in the German Navy Estimates for 1912–13 for new construction was £11,491,187. The amount voted for the new programme was £2,909,245. These figures include £97,847 for airships and experiments with airships.

    NAVAL ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT, BULL POINT.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that in some cases labourers with six months' service at Bull Point are receiving more money than labourers with ten years' service; and whether he can give any reason for this inequality?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): It may be as the hon. Gentleman states. If so, it is in consequence of the allowance to labourers for work which is regarded as superior to fetching and carrying, and also the allowance when men are employed on lyddite shell owing to the disagreeable nature of the work.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman will explain why danger money is not given to the men employed in the Naval Ordnance Department at Bull Point; whether he is aware that these men handle lyddite, cordite, and other explosives; and will he say if this is work entitling men so employed to receive danger money?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Men below the grade of storehouseman working in the laboratory and handling explosives are rated and paid as skilled labourers. They handle loose cordite but not lyddite, the
    426
    latter being contained in filled shells. Men employed on the examination of lyddite shell or otherwise handling picric acid are at present paid an allowance of 5d a day, not as danger money, but on account of the disagreeable nature of the work. Danger money is not paid to any men employed in Naval Ordnance establishments, nor can I give any undertaking to alter the existing practice.

    HOSPITAL STOPPAGES.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that dissatisfaction prevails in the Royal Navy with regard to the question of hospital stoppages; and whether he can see his way to put an end to what is regarded by the men to be both an inequality and a hardship?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Board have given this subject their careful consideration during recent years, but regret they are unable to introduce any further modification of the present system. The amount in question, £3,500, is not a serious burden so far as the Navy is concerned; but the change would raise various difficult questions of principle affecting other Departments.

    WEARING OK PLAIN CLOTHES (PETTY OFFICERS).
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman is now in a position to say when the instructions to Commanders-in-Chief relative to the wearing of plain clothes by petty officers and others will be issued; and will he say whether men below the rank of petty officers will be allowed the same privilege?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Commanders-in-Chief have already received instructions from the Admiralty, as stated in the answer given to the hon. Member for North Birmingham on the 20th November. The case of those below the rating of petty officer has not been overlooked.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consider the question in regard to the men below the rating of petty officers?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: They have not been overlooked, and that is provided for in the instructions which have been sent from the Admiralty to Commanders-in-Chief.

    ROYAL DOCKYARDS.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether there is an Admiralty order

    427
    authorising payment of an extra 1s. to the men of the yard craft for excessive work; whether he is aware that on the day of the launching of the last battleship at Devon-port the crew of the "Rover" were working excessive hours, but have not yet received the extra pay; and will he explain why the money is being withheld?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: An allowance of the kind referred to in the question is authorised by the dockyard regulations; but the dockyard officers report that, on the occasion referred to, the crew of the "Rover" did not work excessive hours.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: If I am in a position to prove that the men on the "Hover" did work excessive hours, will he give them the extra pay?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The whole question is now under consideration.

    ROYAL DOCKYARDS (MEDICAL EXAMINATION OF WORKERS).
    Mr. POINTERasked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that applicants for temporary positions, even of a month's duration, in His Majesty's dockyards have to undergo a medical examination, and that applicants are compelled to stand in a line destitute of clothing; and whether his practice can be discontinued in the case of those applying for short periods of employment, and in all cases be conducted with due regard to decency?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The dockyard regulations require that men entered in the dockyards are to be examined by the medical officer with respect to their physical fitness; in the case of entrants for short periods the examination is required to be only of a general and cursory character. I am not prepared to recommend the discontinuance of the examination. It is certainly our desire that the examination should be carried out in such a way as to avoid all unnecessary indignity. If my hon. Friend will give me the particulars upon which he founds the suggestion to the contrary, I will have inquiry made.

    GERMAN BATTLESHIPS (HOME WATERS).
    Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked how many battleships Germany now has in full commission in home waters; and what is the corresponding British total, exclusive of
    428
    such vessels as are in dockyard hands for repair or refit?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not prepared to give this information at the present time. But the hon. Member may rest assured that the margins of ships available immediately or at short notice are sufficient.
    Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Does not the squadron which has been sent to the Mediterranean, together with the six battleships now under repair, reduce our full commission force to fifteen?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I should prefer always to deal with questions of actual naval strength at some period after the situation has actually occurred, and not to have to state from day to day exactly what ships are undergoing repair and how long they will take to bring them up into the active squadron. I am able positively to give the House the assurance that our margins are amply sufficient to allow for the withdrawal of any vessel from the Mediterranean.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Does the right hon. Gentleman still adhere to the statement made by him in introducing the Supplementary Estimates that in 1915 the proportion will be thirty three to twenty-nine first-class battleships in home waters?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That is a very partial and imperfect account of the statement I made on that occasion, to which I strictly adhere.
    Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked whether, in view of the fact that under present arrangements we shall have in home waters in 1914 twenty-five fully commissioned battleships and six battle cruisers to Germany's twenty-nine battleships and six battle cruisers, he will consider the advisability of creating an additional battle squadron in home waters before sending ships of this type to foreign stations?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The number of battle cruisers which Germany will have in 1914 is five and not six, as stated in the question. Under present arrangements we shall have thirty-three fully commissioned battleships and five battle cruisers in home waters in 1914. In addition, there will be sixteen battleships of the Second Fleet for which full complements of active service ratings are provided, and which can be completely manned without calling out the reserves.
    Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking into account his speech in July, in which he said that a squadron of these battleships would be sent to Gibraltar?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, I am including the squadron which would be based on Gibraltar.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Memorandum which he submitted to the Government of Canada stated that the position in 1915 in home waters will be first-class battleships thirty-three to twenty-one?
    Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider Gibraltar in home waters?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir; the ships based on Gibraltar are available for general and special defence of the United Kingdom.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is it not a fact that Gibraltar is three and a half days' sailing from the North Sea?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It depends on the speed the ships go at.

    ROYAL MARINE OFFICERS.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked whether it is the intention of the Government to increase the pay of Royal Marine officers afloat to the same level as that of lieutenants of the Royal Navy of corresponding rank?
    Lord C. BERESFORDasked the time considered necessary for inquiry into the case of increase of pay of Royal Marine officers?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to the Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth on Monday last.

    AIRSHIPS.
    Sir JOHN LONSDALEasked whether any airships have been ordered for the Navy from Germany?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The answer is in the affirmative.

    H.M.S. "CONQUEROR."
    Lord C. BERESFORDasked if any trials have been carried out by His Majesty's ship "Conqueror"; and, if so, with what result; whether her gun-mountings have proved satisfactory; and, if not, when will they be in working order?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The gun trials of the "Conqueror" were carried out on the 17th June last. Owing to the gun-mountings being of a novel design it was found necessary as the result of the trials to make some modifications. These are practically complete.

    H.M.S. "PEGASUS."
    Major ARCHER-SHEEasked whether His Majesty's Ship "Pegasus" completed an extensive refit in Sydney Dockyard early in 1911; how many months she was in commission before her arrival at Devonport recently; what is the expenditure now estimated for her repair; and what is the estimated life of the ship on completion of these repairs?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The "Pegasus" completed an exhaustive refit in Sydney Dockyard early in 1911, and has been fourteen months in commission since this refit. The expenditure now estimated for her repair is about £8,000, on the completion of which the estimated life of the ship is about six or seven years, with annual repair.
    Major ARCHER-SHEE: As this ship has only done fourteen months since she had an exhaustive refit, would it not be more economical to scrap her than to repair her?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir. There are minor duties on some of our distant stations for which ships of this class are still fitted.

    H.M.S. "PROSERPINE."
    Major ARCHER-SHEEasked what was the amount spent upon repairs to His Majesty's ship "Proserpine" in the years 1910–11 and 1911–12 respectively; whether this ship is on her way home; when did she leave the East Indies station; when is she expected to arrive in England; and whether she is to be recommissioned on arrival?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The ship is not on her way home, but is paid off for large refit at Malta. She left the East Indies station on 7th July last. Her refit is expected to be completed about the middle of February next. No orders have yet been given as to her subsequent movements.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Do I understand the men on board this ship will be allowed to return home for Christmas?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not quite sure what the arrangements will be, but we are endeavouring to give the regular Christmas leave in all cases where it is possible.

    CAPE STATION.
    Major ARCHER-SHEEasked what ship is to take the place of the "Pandora" on the Cape station pending the arrival of His Majesty's Ship "Pegasus" after completing her repairs at Devonport; and whether the present condition of His Majesty's Ship "Pandora's" boilers is sufficiently good to allow of her proceeding to sea without an escort?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The "Pegasus" is expected to be ready to leave England soon after the "Pandora" arrives home. There is no question of any third ship being sent to the Cape temporarily. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
    Major ARCHER-SHEE: Seeing that two of "Pandora's" sister ships have broken down at sea, luckily without any serious damage, would it not be safer to send some escort for her from the Cape?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That is a matter of which the responsible officers must judge, and they inform me she is in a condition to steam without requiring assistance.

    H.M.S.S. "NEW ZEALAND" AND "CONQUEROR."
    Mr. BARNESasked whether the electrical work on His Majesty's ship "New Zealand" and His Majesty's ship "Conqueror," which is unfinished owing to the dispute in the contractors' yards, is to be completed in Devonport dockyard; if so, at whose cost the work is to be done; and whether it will be done in strict compliance with the Fair Wages Clause?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: So far as His Majesty's ship "New Zealand" is concerned, the electrical work was not completed when she left Messrs. Fairfield's, but was completed in Devonport dockyard by the contractors at their expense. As regards His Majesty's ship "Conqueror," in order to avoid delaying the ship, it has been decided to defer work on other ships, and transfer dockyard employés to this ship to complete the work. The cost of such work will be chargeable against the contractors. Our charge against the contractor will certainly not be lower than compliance with the Fair Wages Clause would have imposed.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Could the right hon. Gentleman say why this work is to be completed by dockyard employés?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Because we want the ship to go to sea.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Could the right hon. Gentleman say why the work could not have been completed in Glasgow?
    Dr. MACNAMARA: The question shows that; there was a dispute. The ship was taken to Devonport dockyard, and we took hands off other ships and put them on this one in order to complete her, some of her electrical gear not having been fitted.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Then there was a dispute?

    NUCLEUS CREWS.
    Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked the number of officers and men which form the reduced nucleus crews at present on board ships of the "Majestic" class at Devon-port or elsewhere; and what length of time and what additions to the crews would be necessary 1o get these ships ready for sea should the necessity arise?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It would not be in accordance with Admiralty practice to give the strength and competition of the complements of the Third Fleet ships.
    Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware the "Majestic" a short time ago was manned by two officers and seven men for a considerable time?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: What was the date?
    Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Two or three-weeks ago.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I will certainly inquire into the matter.

    SUPPLY OF BOOTS.
    Mr. PETOasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the policy indicated in Mr. Borden's speech in the Canadian Parliament on the 4th instant of placing Admiralty orders for small vessels for the Imperial Navy with Canadian shipyards, when they are able to undertake them, in spite of paying some share of the extra cost over and above the cost of constructing similar vessels in this country, he will bring Admiralty practice into line with this policy by ceasing to provide boots for the Navy with uppers

    433
    made of German box-calf leather in order to effect a saving of 2¼d. per pair?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I do not think this question is very happily conceived. It is my duty to facilitate by every legitimate means in my power the participation of the Oversea Dominions of the Crown in the duty of Imperial defence. I do not see what need there is at the present moment to connect this policy with that of buying boots for the Navy, which has been often dealt with by my right hon. Friend, and can be discussed at any time on the Navy Estimates.

    SIR FRANCIS BRIDGEMEAN (RETIREMENT).
    Lord C. BERESFORDasked the full circumstances attending the resignation, as First Sea Lord, of Admiral Sir Francis Bridgeman?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Reasons of health led to the resignation from the Board of Admiralty of the late First Sea Lord. The regret which is felt personally by me and by my colleagues on the Board at the withdrawal of so distinguished an officer is only tempered by the fact that no difference in view or policy had led to any disagreement.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: Might I ask the First Lord if it is a fact that ill-health and no other cause at all was the reason for the First Sea Lord's resignation?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: So far as I am aware, no other cause whatever.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has the authothority of Sir Francis Bridgeman for the statement he makes that the resignation was owing to causes of ill-health?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I speak with a full knowledge of the circumstances, and my statement is conclusive.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: It is a very important matter. Might I ask on which side t he proposal for resignation emanated— from the Admiralty or from the First Sea Lord?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I should like, before answering such a question, to know whether the Noble Lord is speaking on behalf of Sir Francis Bridgeman.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: That is a very fair question. No, Sir, I have not had any communication from Sir Francis Bridge-man of any sort or kind since his resignation. I merely ask this question in the interests of the Service, because so many Sea
    434
    Lords have left during the last year. It is a question in which the Service is very interested.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: Might I ask whether the statement that the resignation of Sir Francis Bridgeman is owing to causes of ill-health is made with his authority?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir, I take full responsibility for the statement that the cause of ill-health led to the retirement of Sir Francis Bridgeman. For that I take full responsibility, and I require no other responsibility to cover it.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: Might I ask for an answer to my question — on which side the proposal for the resignation emanated?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Very well, since the Noble Lord presses it: the proposal emanated from me.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether it is not a fact that the Sea Lords have threatened more than once during the last month to resign?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: There is absolutely no truth in that statement.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: Might I ask——
    Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: On a point of Order. Might I ask you, Sir, to kindly state how many supplementary questions may be asked by one Member?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I never allow more than eight in all.
    Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: I was talking of supplementary questions.

    PACIFIC FLEET.
    Lord CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the statement of the Prime Minister of Canada on 6th. December, that he was assured that the aid which Canada proposed would enable such special arrangements to be consummated that without courting disaster at home an effective fleet of battleships and cruisers could be established in the Pacific, etc.; and whether he will state what number of ships and men will be necessary to establish the fleet indicated over and above that he has already described as being necessary for European waters?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The policy of the Admiralty and its explanations have been fully set out in the Memorandum published

    435
    to the Dominion Government and lately laid on the Table of this House. The Noble Lord's question appears to be a somewhat unsatisfactory condensation of certain parts of that Memorandum. If he would study the original text more closely he would see exactly what is in contemplation.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: Am I to understand there will be no fleet sent to the Pacific, as was stated by Mr. Borden to the Canadian Parliament?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have nothing to add to the statement contained in the Memorandum. That gives the Admiralty position, and if the Noble Lord will read it he will see what the position is.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: I have read it. It says there will be a fleet of battleships for the Pacific. Is that the fact or not?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That is by no means an accurate statement of what is contained in the Memorandum. Nothing that corresponds to what the Noble Lord says appears in the Memorandum, but there is a statement in it which in some respects resembles what the Noble Lord did say. If, however, he will compare what he has said with what appears in the Memorandum he will see where he is in error.

    BOARD OF ADMIRALTY (RESIGNATIONS).
    Lord CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state how many naval officers have left the Board of Admiralty since October, 1911; and if he will give their names and rank, and the reasons for their resignation or dismissal?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The facts are well known to the Noble Lord and to the House, and full explanations have been given when occasion has required them.

    FUEL FOR BATTLESHIPS.
    Mr. FELLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is taking any steps to counteract the price being charged for oil for fuel purposes; and if the continued scarcity and high price will affect the future construction of oil-burning ships for the Navy?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: All possible steps are and will be taken to obtain supplies of oil fuel for His Majesty's Navy on the best terms. The question of fuel supply must necessarily have an important bearing upon the design of ships.
    Mr. FELL: Has the Admiralty any reliable source of supply apart from the Oil Trust?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I believe there is a Committee sitting almost daily on this subject which is one of great difficulty, and the importance of which we are certainly not likely to lose sight of. I have no further statement of policy to make at the present moment.

    WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY EXPERTS.
    Mr. BOOTHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that Captain Charlton stated at the Marconi Inquiry that there was great difficulty in finding suitable wireless experts, and that the replies to the advertisement were mostly unsatisfactory; and whether, in future statements of necessary qualifications, the restriction to university trained men will be removed, and a training at the Electrical Institute or an engineering college substituted?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The answer to the first part of the question is generally in the affirmative. As regards the last part, the number of civilian experts in wireless required to assist naval officers is very small, only three being so employed, and there is no probability of another being required under present conditions. The definition of a university education has been interpreted in a wide sense, and provided that the candidate possesses the requisite technical qualifications, no rigid line would be drawn as to the college or institute at which he may have been trained. I may add that the Admiralty has been guided in this matter and will be guided in the future solely by the desire to obtain the best man for the work, and that neither a university training nor the absence of it will be considered a bar.
    Mr. KELLAWAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the meaning of the phrase used in the advertisement that the applicants must have a university training?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I did not draft the advertisement, and I have not studied it; but I will inquire as to the actual meaning. But I understand there is no idea of drawing a social distinction or erecting any artificial barrier, and any such idea would be foreign to the whole spirit in which the naval administration is conducted.

    IMPERIAL DEFENCE.
    Lord C. BERESFORDasked the exact date on which the Government became aware of the peril to the Empire through insufficient naval forces, as disclosed by the Admiralty Memorandum to the Government of the Dominion of of Canada?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have at present nothing to add to the full statement of Admiralty policy contained in the Memorandum in question.
    Lord C. BERESFORD: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that in his speech the Canadian Prime Minister said, "If the conditions which face the Empire at this moment respecting naval defence are grave, based upon the assurances of the Government of the Mother-country and the report of the naval experts of the Admiralty, so as to demand instant and effective action, then I will appeal to Parliament for instant and effective aid, and, if Parliament does not give it me, I will appeal from Parliament to the people," and whether that does not show there is great peril to the Empire?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I cannot attempt to answer questions about speeches delivered by responsible Ministers of the self-governing Dominions. That has nothing to do with the Admiralty. I can answer any questions in regard to Admiralty policy, and the Admiralty policy is fully set forth and explained in the Memorandum, which, if it is read and studied, will be found to put the case exactly as we wish to have it put at the present time.
    Mr. KEIR HARDIE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any information was given to the Canadian Prime Minister during his recent visit which has not been disclosed to this House?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, certainly a great deal of confidential information was given.

    CEYLON (GIFT TO IMPERIAL NAVY).
    Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware of any steps which are being taken to induce the Executive Council of Ceylon to vote a gift to the Imperial Navy?
    Mr. HARCOURT: No, Sir.

    CANADA (OFFER OF "DREADNOUGHTS").
    Mr. PETOasked the Prime Minister "whether, in view of the fact that the
    438
    placing of the order for the three Canadian "Dreadnoughts" in this country would involve the payment directly or indirectly of wages to the extent of at least £5,000,000 sterling in this country out of money provided by Canadian taxpayers, he will now consider the advisability of altering the fiscal system of this country so as to give some preference to Canadian products in our home market?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative. His Majesty's Government have no intention of altering the fiscal system of the United Kingdom.
    An HON. MEMBER: Will not the cost of these "Dreadnoughts" be largely met by duties levied on British imports going into Canada, and will not the British manufacturer, as the foreigner, pay the duty?
    Mr. CROFT: Having regard to the very great importance felt in many parts of this House as to this particular question, could not the right hon. Gentleman give a day to discuss the possibility of making some return to the Dominions oversea for this generous policy which is proposed?
    Major ARCHER-SHEE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be as well to build these "Dreadnoughts" abroad, as under Free Trade that is supposed to be as good?
    Mr. MARTINrose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: None of these questions seem to arise.
    Mr. MARTINasked if the memorandum of the Admiralty given to the Canadian Ministers was intended as a request for an emergency contribution of "Dreadnoughts" from Canada?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The memorandum speaks for itself. It contains no request, and leaves the facts set out to the unfettered consideration of the Canadian Government and Parliament.
    Mr. MARTINasked what additional taxation per annum will be put upon the British taxpayer in providing maintenance for the three "Dreadnoughts" to be built by Canada?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not pre-pared to reply to this question while the subject to which it refers is still under discussion in the Canadian Parliament.

  Peruvian Amazon Rubber Company.
  Mr. CARR-GOMMasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Peruvian Amazon Rubber Company is now obtaining an increased quantity of rubber from the Putumayo, in spite of the fact that the Indian population has been reduced by many thousands; if so, whether this rubber is being conveyed by British bottoms to Europe by a steamship company of which the present British Vice-Consul at Iquitos is the agent; and, if so, whether he will take some action to put a stop to this state of affairs?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Acland): The figures of the amount of rubber exported during the first eight months of the year show an increase on the figures for last year, but are far below the figures for 1906 and 1907; the rubber is conveyed to Europe by vessels of the Booth Steamship Company, of which, as stated last Thursday, Mr. Brown is the resident agent. Endeavours are being made to secure proper treatment for the Indians employed in the collection of rubber, and as I have hopes of their success I should not consider myself justified in trying to interfere with the transport trade, whether carried on by a British company or otherwise.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: Does not the hon. Gentleman see that this gentleman now acting as the representative of Great Britain is also the representative of the rubber company? Will he consider the propriety of appointing an independent gentleman to act?
  Mr. ACLAND: We have got an independent paid officer there, but he happens to be absent on leave at the moment, and Mr. Brown is taking his place during his temporary absence. He was recommended as the best man for the post.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: Does not the hon. Gentleman see that Mr. Brown is in an antagonistic position as agent of the rubber company?
  Mr. ACLAND: I cannot admit that a British subject is unable to fulfil his duties perfectly honestly even although he may be an agent of a rubber company.
  Mr. T. E. HARVEY: Would it not be possible, in view of the very grave happenings in Putumayo, to send out a temporary Vice-Consul?
  Mr. ACLAND: I will convey that suggestion to the right quarter. But no sug-
  440
  gestion has been made that Mr. Brown is not carrying out the duties in a perfectly-satisfactory manner.
  Mr. CARR-GOMM: How long will the Vice-Consul be absent?
  Mr. ACLAND: I cannot say at the moment, but I will find out?
  Mr. CARR-GOMMasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has any information as to the alleged atrocities committed this year in the districts of Ultimo Retiro, on the Putumayo; whether His Majesty's Government has any information that 122 bodies of murdered men, women, and children, were seen in one district in March last; and, if this be so, whether he will communicate with the Peruvian Government in this matter?
  Mr. ACLAND: The only mention that I have seen of this story is in a letter addressed by the Colombian Consul-General at Manaos to His Majesty's and the United States Consuls at Iquitos. In the absence of confirmation and of further details, I should not be justified in addressing the Peruvian Government.
  Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked whether any, and, if so, how many, of the agents of the Peruvian Amazon Company have been arrested and punished?
  Mr. ACLAND: I have no information beyond that given in the Blue Book and in reply to the hon. Member for Hitchin on 10th October last.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: Is there no further information of anyone having been arrested or punished?
  Mr. ACLAND: That is so.
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: And in point of fact none of these men have been arrested?
  Mr. ACLAND: We have not any information on the matter.
  Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked whether His Majesty's Government can state how many of the agents of the Peruvian Amazon Company reported by Sir Roger Casement as being guilty of grave crimes are still in the employ of the Peruvian Amazon Company on the Putumayo?
  Mr. ACLAND: I have no information on this point beyond that given in the Blue Book. If my hon. Friend will repeat his question next week, I may be able to give him further information.

  Chinese Railways.
  Mr. NORMAN CRAIGasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he is aware that the monopoly accorded to the Hong Kong and Shanghai Ranking Corporation in finance in China has carried with it the practical monopoly of railway loan contracts to the bank's agents and partners, Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company, and their associates; whether these railway loan contracts stipulate for a commission, generally 5 per cent., to be paid to Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company on the invoice value of all materials purchased for the railways; whether he is aware that, besides being contractors under the loan agreements, Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company are also sole agents to firms of locomotive -and carriage builders, etc., and in this capacity receive a further commission on goods supplied for the railway contracts; whether he is aware that, thus placed, Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company are enabled to receive commission for buying the material and a commission from the manufacturers supplying the material; whether this practice was the subject of complaint to His Majesty's Legation in Pekin; and whether any, and what, action was taken by His Majesty's Government in consequence; (2) whether he is aware that, in such cases as tenders have been invited for supply of materials for railway construction in China conceded to British interests, manufacturers have had to submit their tenders to Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company, or their London house, and have thus had to disclose to that firm as representing the railways under construction information which would place the tendering manufacturers at a disadvantage by reason of the fact that Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company were also agents for manufacturers competing by tender for the same work; and whether he will take steps to ensure greater equality of opportunity to British commercial interests; and (3) whether he is aware that, in the case of the Shanghai-Nanking Railway, the whole of the material was supplied by Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company, without any other firm having an opportunity to tender; that substantially the same thing occurred on the Chinese section of the Canton-Kowloon Railway; whether a similar course was proposed to be taken on the commencement of the Tientsin-Pukow Railway; whether a joint
  442
  protest was addressed to the British Minister in Peking by a body representative of large British interests; whether he is aware that an inquiry was made into the complaint thus made, and that the complaint was admitted by the commercial attaché to be just; whether he is aware that the British Minister promised that there should be no repetition of the practice complained of; that in spite of this promise the practice has been persisted in; and whether the policy of an open door and equality of opportunity is still favoured by His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. ACLAND: I am aware that it was alleged in 1910 that- Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company, as buying agents for the British and Chinese Corporation under the loan agreements for the Shanghai-Nanking, Canton-Kowloon, and Tientsin-Pukow Railways, and also as representatives of certain manufacturers of railway materials, were using their position in an unfair manner and to the detriment of other British firms. The matter was carefully enquired into at the time, the explanations given were considered satisfactory, and the firm, which took a leading part in raising the question intimated that they did not wish to press it. The question was again raised in another form in the autumn of 1911, and the specific case was again investigated with the result that the firms concerned expressed themselves satisfied with the steps taken by His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. NORMAN CRAIGasked whether the British Minister in Peking refused his support to another British firm in regard to railway contracts on the ground that that business is ear-marked for Messrs. Jardine, Matheson, and Company; and, if so, did he do so with the sanction of His Majesty's Government?
  Mr. ACLAND: No, Sir. I have no information to that effect and the statement is so improbable that I should be obliged if the hon. and learned Member could let me know on what authority it is made.

  Somali Mullah.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Somali Mullah has occupied Bohotleh and Kaikyo; and whether any of the Somali clans are joining the Mullah's standard?
  The SECRETARY Of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): From information recently received from the Commissioner, it appears that Bohotleh is occupied by the Mullah, and that a few of the Dolbahanta and a section of the Gadwein tribes have joined him. I have no information as to Kaikyo.

  Gilbert Islands.
  Mr. POINTERasked whether natives of the Gilbert group in the Western Pacific are forced to labour on public works; and, if so, what are the conditions under which such labour is enforced; what are the conditions under which it is carried on; and what powers or orders give authority for it?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The natives of the Gilbert and Ellice Islands, under the order of local native officials as authorised by the code of native laws, do a certain amount of weeding and cleaning of the villages in which they live. This work is necessary for sanitary reasons, and has always been freely and willingly done by the natives, and cannot properly be described as forced labour. Beyond that there is no forced labour in the Protectorate.
  Mr. CATHCART WASON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any forced labour in these islands?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I do not think so. If the hon. Member wants any further information perhaps he will give me notice.
  Mr. POINTER: Do I understand that this work is done without payment?
  Mr. HARCOURT: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. POINTERasked the reason why the export of phosphates from the Gilbert Islands fell from 210,151 tons in 1908 to 135,000 tons in 1911; and whether any sufficient reason has been assigned by the Island Government why the value of the phosphates do not accompany the tonnage of exports?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The export of phosphates from Ocean Island, of course, varies in different years, and I am unable to say why the amount exported in 1908 was considerably in excess of that of any previous or subsequent year. As the royalty paid to the Government depends on the amount, and not the value of the phosphates exported, the Government has not thought it necessary to require the values to be recorded.

  Pacific Phosphates Company.
  Mr. POINTERasked the right hon. Gentleman what dividends have been declared by the Pacific Phosphates Company for each year from 1901 to 1911; and whether he will state the capital of the company, and show the actual cash capital as distinguished from the watered capital upon which dividend is now paid?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I have no official information on this subject, but I understand that information can be found in the "Stock Exchange Official Intelligence."
  Mr. POINTER: Ought it not to be the duty of the Colonial Office to make itself acquainted with these facts in order to judge whether or not the amount of royalty they are asking from the Pacific Phosphates Company is a fair thing, or whether it is hopelessly undervalued?
  Mr. HARCOURT: When a royalty has been settled under a contract subsequent dividends which may be paid by the company would not enable the Government to vary the terms of the original contract.
  Mr. POINTER: Is it not the fact that the contract was obtained under false pretences by the company, who represented that the value of the phosphates was 10s. per ton, when, as a matter of fact, it was over £2 a ton, and the 6d. was fixed on the understanding that the market price of phosphates was 10s. per ton.
  Mr. HARCOURT: I should certainly not be prepared to say without notice, and probably not with notice that the contract was obtained under false pretences.

  Federated Malay States.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked what is the constitution of the Federal Council of the Federated Malay States which has offered to present to the Imperial Navy a battleship costing £2,250,000?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The Federal Council is composed of the High Commissioner for the Malay States (President), the Chief Secretary to the Government of the Federated Malay States, the Rulers of the four States, the British residents of the four States, and four unofficial members, representing the mining, planting, and general commercial interests, of whom one is Chinese and three are Europeans.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: With regard to the four representatives who are termed

  445
  unofficial members, are they nominated by the Governor with the consent of the Crown?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I think that is the method of appointment.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: They are not elected members representing anybody?
  Mr. HARCOURT: There is no elective system in the Federated Malay States.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLES: Will the people from whose pockets the money will come have any say whatever in the expenditure of it?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I think the money to which ray hon. Friend is referring does not come out of the pockets of these people.
  Sir W. BYLES: Is not the policy of taxing the Colonies for Imperial purposes one against which history directs grave warnings?
  Mr. HARCOURT: As I have already said, the Federated Malay States are not a Colony.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked what is the total population and the total revenue of the Federated Malay States?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The total resident population, according to the Census of 1911, is 1,036,999. The revenue for 1912 is expected to be $37,900,000.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Will the right hon. Gentleman translate the last figure into pounds sterling?
  Mr. HARCOURT: No, Sir, not without notice.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: What proportion of the Malay population is imported Chinese?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I am sorry to say I do not carry all these figures in my head.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration that the cost of this gift to the Imperial Government on these figures will amount to over £2 per head of the population?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I do not think it will amount to anything per head of the population. It will amount, no doubt, to a good deal per head of the owners of the rubber shares and tin shares in the Federated Malay States.

  Army Airships.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for War what is the total number of biplanes, apart front school machines, in use in the Military Wing of the Royal Flying Corps; how many machines, biplanes and monoplanes, are on order; and how many machines have been ordered since 30th September?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Colonel Seely): Fourteen biplanes are in use in the Military Wing, three of which are at present under repair. Sixteen machines are on order. No machines have-been ordered since 30th September, but tenders for eighteen have been invited.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Docs that apply to work conducted at the aircraft, factory?
  Colonel SEELY: Of course, the tenders apply to outside firms.

  Royal Flying Corps.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked what progress is being made in the organisation of the Royal Flying Corps as outlined by him; and whether one aeroplane squadron out of seven promised has yet been placed upon an efficient basis?
  Colonel SEELY: Steady progress is being made. One airship and kite squadron, three aeroplane squadrons, the Flying Depot, the headquarters Military Wing, and the Central Flying School have been formed, but the personnel of these units is not yet complete.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Does a squadron which is formed mean a squadron which is ready to go to war?
  Colonel SEELY: It is a little difficult to say in a new art like flying, and a new thing like the Royal Flying Corps, that it would be ready to take the field, but, as I have said, steady progress is being made.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Are they squadrons on paper, or are they effective?
  Colonel SEELY: They are not squadrons on paper; they are very real, and have made a very great advance.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked how many applications to join the Royal Flying Corps have been received since its formation and how many have been accepted; how many applications have been rejected and what were the reasons for rejection; and how many candidates

  447
  have been rejected since 30th September, and is one reason for their rejection the lack of facilities to train them?
  Colonel SEELY: There have been 198 applications from officers and civilians. Of these 154 have been accepted, twenty-five were rejected, and fourteen are under consideration. Fifteen of these rejections took place after the 30th September. All the rejections were due to the unsuitability of the applicants and none to lack of facilities for training.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked whether money is still available, without a Supplementary Estimate, to complete the development of the Royal Flying Corps and Central Flying School in accordance with the promise of the Secretary of State in April last?
  Colonel SEELY: The reply is in the affirmative.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked how many military officers hold the superior certificate of the Royal Aero Club; and whether less efficiency than that necessary to obtain such a certificate is considered to constitute a trained military pilot?
  Colonel SEELY: No information regarding the first part of the question is available at the War Office. As regards the rest of the question, the standard reached by officers who have qualified at the Central Flying School or with the Military Wing is considered as high as that required for the Aero Club's superior certificate.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman ascertain how many hold this certificate?
  Colonel SEELY: Of course we can, but we could not ascertain it so easily as the hon. Gentleman himself. I wanted to emphasise the fact that we do not ask of officers a return on this point.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked whether the aeroplanes stated to be over due from British manufacturers have been delayed in delivery through the dilatoriness of Government inspectors or through alterations in the official designs after certain parts had been constructed; whether the fifteen machines on order are supposed to be sufficient to supply the Royal Flying Corps with an adequate number of aero planes; and, if not, why no further orders have been given?
  Colonel SEELY: The delay in completion of the aeroplanes due from British manufacturers has not been caused by any dilatoriness on the part of Government inspectors, but the necessity for constant inspection may have caused a portion of the delay in some cases. Further orders are being placed.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked whether the Clement Bayard airship, which cost this country £ 18,000, still exists; if not, whether any use is being made of her engines and other equipment; and, if so, what use?
  Colonel SEELY: The airship has been dismantled, but the parts still exist. No use has yet been made of the engines, which are, however, now being tested with a view to being used.
  Mr. LEE: Why was no attempt made even to give a trial to the ship after it arrived in England, and why was it allowed to remain until a portion of it has rotted away?
  Colonel SEELY: It is a long time since the Clement Bayard airship came over, and we have had to buy our experience in this matter at a much less cost than other countries. I could not go into the whole question in a reply—it is rather a long story—but I should be able to give a memorandum on the precise point.

  Ex-Soldiers and Sailors (Employment).
  Colonel YATEasked the Prime Minister if he will issue a circular to all Government Departments, county, borough, and district councils, public societies and institutions, railway companies, etc., informing them that the Postmaster-General and the Secretary of State for the Home Department have adopted the principle of filling not less than half of all appointments, such as messengers, postmen, watchers, warders, park-keepers, attendants, porters, and similar situations, with ex-soldiers and sailors of good character, and suggesting that the same principle may be adopted by all other Government Departments and by all municipal and public bodies throughout the United Kingdom?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): As regards Government Departments, the desirability of employing ex-soldiers and sailors in situations for which they are suitable is well known, and I do not think it necessary to issue a new circular on the subject. I think if local authorities, public societies

  449
  and institutions, railway companies, are approached with this object, which has my full sympathy, steps should be taken by the voluntary associations formed to promote the employment of ex-soldiers and sailors rather than by the Government.

  Land Values Committee.
  Mr. WEIGALLasked the Prime Minister whether he was aware of the names and qualifications of the members of the secret Land Committee before he gave his sanction and approval to its formation?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on 8th July on this subject, to which I have nothing to add.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: Will the names of the Committee of this sneaking inquiry be published eventually?
  Mr. WEIGALLasked whether members of the secret Land Committee have now been furnished with copies of the evidence and Report of the Departmental Committee on the position of tenant farmers, etc.?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I can add nothing to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on the 22nd October last in reply to a similar question.
  Mr. WEIGALL: Is it within the recollection of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) he gave a promise that a copy of the evidence and the Report would be laid before the members of the Committee?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I certainly gave no such promise.

  Balkan Settlement (British Interests).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a statement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty to the effect that the policy of Great Britain is to promote the happiness of the Bulgarian and Hellenic peoples; and whether this statement at the present juncture has been made with the sanction of the Cabinet?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The policy of Great Britain is to promote the happiness of all the populations concerned or interested.
  Sir J. D. REES: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the fact that his colleagues make different statements does
  450
  not call for notice, especially in view of the pending peace conference in London?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is a very mischievous question.
  Sir J. D. REES: Is a question necessarily mischievous because it is inconvenient to the Minister?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is not in the least inconvenient to the Government, but it is most desirable that the country should present a united front——
  Sir J. D. REES: So I think.
  The PRIME MINISTER: In regard to this matter. We are equally interested in the happiness of all the populations concerned.
  Sir J. D. REES: May I ask the Prime Minister whether it was with that intention——
  Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  Major STANLEYasked whether, although this country has no direct interest in the exact form which the redistribution of the conquered territories of European Turkey may take, His Majesty's Government will take steps in the interest of our trade with European Turkey to safeguard those interests by, as far as possible, maintaining the principle of the open door in any settlement which may be arrived at on the completion of the present hostilities, and secure the co-operation of the other European Powers for that purpose?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. Member may rest assured that, in any settlement which may be arrived at in the Balkan Peninsula, commercial interests will not be lost sight of by His Majesty's Government in the discussions that take place with the Powers, and that the principle of the open door will receive all the support that is possible.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I beg to ask the Foreign Secretary if he has any further statement to make in reference to the diplomatic situation arising out of the recent war?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Edward Grey): I promised yesterday, in reply to a question put to me respecting the prospective meeting of Ambassadors, to make a full statement on Thursday, but as I am in a position to make that statement on the subject of the meeting of the Ambassadors to-day. I

  451
  would ask the House to allow me to anticipate what I had intended to say. I would begin by making some reference to a separate matter, the meeting of the delegates of the belligerents.
  As the House is aware, the five belligerents are sending their respective delegates to London to negotiate a peace. The King has placed rooms in St. James's Palace at their disposal, and His Majesty's Government will do everything in their power to promote the convenience of the delegates. The choice of London was made by the belligerent States on their own initiative; it was in no way prompted or suggested by us; but we are sure the House will agree that their choice is very agreeable to us and their presence very welcome; and "we believe that they will find the conditions here favourable to the conduct of their negotiations and to the conclusion of peace, which we all earnestly desire to see secured.
  The Great Powers who are neutral and signatories of the Treaty of Berlin have now all agreed that their representatives in London should meet together for informal and non-committal consultation. The object will be to facilitate an exchange of views, especially on those points which may most directly affect the interests of any of the Great Powers concerned. These conversations will begin as soon as all the Ambassadors in London have received their instructions from their respective Governments—we hope next week. They will not constitute a Conference; and in this connection I would recall that the first suggestion of a formal Conference came from Monsieur Poincaré, and Paris will therefore, presumably, be the first place to be considered should a formal Conference be found to be opportune and necessary.
  At this moment, I do not think that I can with advantage make observations at any length on the European situation. Hopes and anxieties have varied from day to day, and may continue for some time to vary, and it is difficult to say any-tiling without the risk of causing undue pessimism or raising hopes, that might be subsequently disappointed. The relations between the Governments of the Powers are amicable, and the diplomatic situation is favourable, and if there is anxiety, it is lest some untoward and unforeseen incident should occur and cause an unfavourable change in the diplomatic atmosphere. The consultations of the Ambassadors are
  452
  to be informal and non-committal, and this is, of course, an indication that the Powers are not yet sure that a solution of all difficulties is in sight. On the other hand, the fact that the Powers have all agreed to come to closer quarters in discussion may be taken as evidence that there is no one of them who believes that such solution is impossible or that agreement is not more probable than deadlock. And when once the conversations in London have begun and the representatives of the Powers are in a position to discuss questions with each other round a table, the Powers will by this means be in closer touch, and there should be less danger of any of them drifting apart from the others should unforeseen points of difficulty arise. We trust, therefore, that these conversations may begin as soon as possible.
  In the interval I wish to refrain from any further comments of a political nature on the situation; and, indeed, the fact that London is the meeting place for the conversations and for the peace negotiations imposes on His Majesty's Government a special obligation to be reserved in making such comments; but we desired that the House—whose forbearance and restraint all through this time of great interest and delicacy His Majesty's Government most fully recognise—should be informed as soon as the matters to which I have referred were sufficiently definite for this statement to be made.

  Established Church (Wales) Bill.
  Lord ROBERT CECILasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there was no discussion whatever in Committee upon Clause 2 of the Established Church (Wales) Bill, or upon three of the five Sub-sections of Clause 3, including the Sub-section dismembering Convocation; and whether he will arrange to give further time for the rest of the Committee of the Bill so as to prevent a similar result taking-place with regard to its other Clauses?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I fear I cannot give further time for consideration of the Bill in Committee.

  Foreign Policy (Dominions Oversea).
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Prime Minister whether the terms in which he explicitly accepted the principle that the great Dominions sharing in the defence of the Empire upon the high seas must necessarily be entitled to share also

  453
  in the responsibility for and in the control of foreign policy have been published; if not, whether he will publish them; and whether he has given any undertaking or indication to the Canadian Government of the manner in which the means for the constitutional accomplishment of this principle must be sought, discovered, and utilised without delay?
  The PRIME MINISTER: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, for the Colonies has sent a dispatch to the Governors of the Dominions in which the declarations of His Majesty's Government to the representatives of the Dominions in regard to this and kindred matters are fully set out. It will be laid on the Table we hope shortly.

  Reserve of Horses.
  Sir REGINALD POLE-CAREWasked how many trained and seasoned horses of the number required on mobilisation, in addition to those now serving in the ranks, are available in the United Kingdom at two weeks' notice suitable for cavalry, Military Mounted Police, Royal Horse and Field Artillery, Royal Field Artillery (howitzer batteries), Royal Garrison Artillery (heavy batteries), Royal Engineers, Army Service Corps, and Mounted Infantry?
  Colonel SEELY: The demands for horses on mobilisation will be completely met within the United Kingdom and in the time required. The horses will be in working condition.
  Sir R. POLE-CAREW: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that four or five year old horses are seasoned?
  Colonel SEELY: I say all these horses will be in perfect condition. As to the question of what is a seasoned horse, I shall be glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question.
  Mr. LANE-FOX: How long does a four-year-old remain a seasoned horse?
  Colonel SEELY: That is a point on which a question should be put down.

  Gun Firing (Sheerness).
  Mr. WHELERasked whether the question as to the compensation to be awarded to those residents of Sheerness whose property is damaged by the concussion from the firing of the guns of the Ravelin battery has been decided?
  Colonel SEELY: The question is under consideration.
  Mr. WHELER: Has not the question been under consideration for a very long time, and could not the battery be moved to some more practicable place?
  Colonel SEELY: I do not think that would be a wise course to pursue. I know the matter has been under consideration for some time, but it is a very difficult point.

  Military Barracks (Navan, County Meath).
  Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked what is the cause of the delay in handing over possession of the disused military barracks at Navan, county Meath, to the local purchasers?
  Colonel SEELY: The requisite legal formalities, which necessarily occupied a considerable time, have now been completed, and as soon as the purchasers pay the balance of the purchase money possession can be handed over to them. There does not appear to have been any undue delay in the War Office in dealing with the matter.

  Royal Artillery (Promotion).
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked upon what date was the last promotion, respectively, of subalterns to captain and of captain to major in the Royal Artillery made; and how many vacancies are there in each rank at the present time?
  Colonel SEELY: The dates of the last, promotions are as follows: Royal Horse and Field Artillery, 26th August, 1912; Royal Garrison Artillery, lieutenant to captain, 28th September, 1912; Captain to major, 25th November, 1912. There are no existing vacancies except amongst the captains of the Garrison Artillery where there are ten vacancies. The majority of these will be filled by absorption of captains from the seconded list and the remainder will shortly be filled by promotion.

  Calcutta High Court Decisions.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State has seen the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in the case of Asima Bibi and Others v. Munshi Shama Canand, in which their Lordships have advised His Majesty

  455
  that the decree of the High Court of Calcutta was against all principle and authority; and whether the Secretary of State proposes to take any action in view of these continued reversals of the judgments of the Calcutta High Court?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Harold Baker): The Secretary of State has seen the judgment referred to. As regards the second part of the question, there is nothing to add to the answers already given.

  Calcutta Chamber of Commerce.
  Sir J. D. REESasked whether proposals have been submitted to the Secretary of State by the Government of India in order to preserve touch between that Government and the centres of commerce, of which Calcutta is the most important; if so, what has been the disposal; and what further reply has been given to the last letter the Calcutta Chamber of Commerce addressed to the Government of India on this subject?
  Mr. HAROLD BAKER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The rest of the hon. Member's inquiries therefore do not arise.

  Durbar Policy.
  EARL of RONALDSHAYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if any modification of the Durbar policy is about to be announced by Lord Hardinge; if Lord Hardinge is to resign the office of Viceroy at an early date, and is to be succeeded by Lord Kitchener; and, if so, has he any statement which he can make to the House as to the nature of the modification proposed?
  Mr. HAROLD BAKER: The answer to both questions is in the negative.
  Sir J. D. REES: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the statement.? in the papers, and is the House to understand that there is no foundation for them?
  Mr. BAKER: I have been informed that there are statements in the papers, but I can assure the hon. Member that they are without foundation.

  Budget Resolutions.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there is any precedent for a delay of five months between the passing of Resolutions in the
  456
  Committee of Ways and Means and the Royal Assent in respect of the duties on tea and Income Tax in 1910, and a delay of seven months in the like case in 1911; and whether it is the intention of the Government to follow in future the earlier and better precedent of a delay generally of two, and in no case of more than four, months, which obtained before he occupied the post of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): Yes. Sir, in 1909, when my Budget was thrown out. The future intentions of the Government will be explained when the proper time comes.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.

    SANATORIUM BENEFITS.
    Sir J. D. REESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any and, if so, what person paid 2s. 8d. as insurance tax and received sanatorium benefit of £21; whether any and, if so, what person paid 4s. 8d. tax and received benefits valued at £200; and whether such payments, if made, are to be regarded as normal?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Masterman): Yes, Sir, the cases mentioned by my right hon. Friend are actual cases of those now receiving sanatorium benefit under the Insurance Act, and the sums mentioned are based upon the medical estimates of the time required for treatment and cure. I do not think that I should be asked to furnish names without the permission of the patients, though I should be willing to furnish the names in confidence to the hon. Member. Cases such as these are normal accompaniments of such insurance schemes as that of the National Insurance Act in which large bodies of persons are united in order to guarantee each and all against what may be a very heavy risk for some of them.
    Sir J. D. REES: Does the hon. Gentleman think it fair to the public that these cases should be put forward?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter of opinion.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can arrange treatment in a sanatorium for Mr. R. G. Went, of 17, East Hill, Colchester, an insured person, who applied for sanatorium treatment on the advice of

    457
    his medical attendant on 11th October last and who was recommended by the chief tuberculosis officer on 31st October as a suitable case for two months' treatment in a sanatorium, and who has been unable to obtain treatment owing to lack of accommodation; and whether, in view of this and many similar eases in Essex, additional beds can be lent to the Essex insurance committee pending arrangements for permanent accommodation?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: As I stated in reply to a similar question which the hon. Member asked me on Monday, additional accommodation for oases of tuberculosis in Essex has been secured, and a scheme for the provision of a temporary sanatorium for the treatment of about fifty cases is under consideration. I am making inquiries with regard to the particular case mentioned.

    MEDICAL BENEFIT.
    Mr. BIRDasked whether the amount of personal time and attention which can be given by a fully-qualified doctor, who contracts to attend 1,000 patients under the National Insurance Act, will be sufficient to comply with the regulations under the Act, seeing that such doctor will have to make on an average sixty attendances a clay, or giving an average of less than five minutes to each patient after allowing for time taken in travelling; and whether any limit is to be put on the number of patients which a doctor can be allowed to contract to attend?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: Care will be taken to ensure that doctors do not contract to give attendance to a greater number of insured persons than is consistent with the interests of those persons. The hon. Member is, however, under a serious misapprehension. No doctor will contract to attend 1,000 patients. The contract will be to give such attendance as may be needed by any of the insured persons on the doctor's list. The number of persons on that list may be 1,000 or some other number, but the majority of them will not require medical attendance at all during any given year. This correction in the basis of calculation alone will have the effect of multiplying by several times any estimate of remuneration available or dividing similarly any estimate of work required. Even with this allowance, however, I am unable to follow the hon. Member's figures as to attendances which are not implied by any provision of the Regulations, and appear to be wildly in excess
    458
    of estimates advanced even by critics of the Act. According to the experience of contract practice in the past, a doctor with 1,000 persons on his list (in respect of whom he would be receiving £350–£375 per annum) would be required to give about twelve attendances a day, including both visits at the patient's home and consultations at the surgery.
    Sir P. MAGNUS: Do not the figures stated refer to selected lives and not to lives under the Insurance Act?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: No, I do not think so. The lives will be about the same as the 14,000,000 insured under the Act.
    Mr. HARRY LAWSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the figures given are not founded on the experience of the friendly societies?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: Not entirely. They are founded on the general report dealing with contract practice as a whole.
    MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Does not the reply mean that the majority of people are to get no benefit from the Insurance Act?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: I am afraid I cannot follow the Noble Lord's method of reasoning.

    LABOUR EXCHAGES STAFF.
    Mr. WEIGALLasked whether clerks on the permanent staff of Labour Exchanges were compelled to work many hours overtime in connection with the starting of Part. II. of the National Insurance Act; and whether they have received any extra remuneration for these extra hours of work?
    Mr. TYSON WILSONasked whether a circular was issued in May last to the officials at the Labour Exchanges informing them that overtime worked on special work between 1st June and 15th July would be paid for at rates authorised by the Treasury; whether any payment has yet been made, and, if not, when is it proposed to make such payment; and whether payment will be made at the same rates for overtime that some of the officials are still compelled to work?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): As has already been stated in answer to previous questions on the subject, it is proposed to pay gratuities to members of the Labour Exchange staff who

    459
    were obliged to work overtime in June and July. The delay in making the payment is due to negotiations between the Board of Trade and the Treasury. I am glad to say that a decision has been arrived at with regard to the payments for overtime and payment will accordingly be made forthwith.

  Customs and Excise Officials.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a Customs trained official has now been appointed to London East Excise collection; whether no Excise trained official was fit for the post; and whether he will explain why this course of action was adopted in view of the promise that the prospect of no class should suffer by the amalgamation?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The appointment referred to has been made in the ordinary course of amalgamation, under which men of Customs origin have been, or may be, when necessary appointed to collections formerly under Excise control and vice Versa. Amalgamation could not be successfully carried out if it were necessary to ear-mark particular posts to one or other of the old services. With regard to the last paragraph of the question, I would point out that the effect of amalgamation must be judged as a whole.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: May I ask whether there has been a case where an Excise official has been appointed?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If my hon. Friend will put down a question I will find out.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Is it not a fact that a Customs-trained official is quite incompetent to take charge of these duties, and that in this particular case the official had to be shown where to sign official documents?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The amalgamation has proceeded on the opposite assumption that Customs officials are competent for Excise work, and that Excise officials are competent for Customs work.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has not received remonstrances from subordinate officers, trained as Excise officers, as to the difficulty they have in serving under Customs
  460
  officers who are quite unaccustomed to the work?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have no recollection of having received remonstrances, or anything of that sort. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question I will inquire.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now prepared to consider the representations contained in the petitions of about 170 surveyors of Customs and Excise (formerly Excise supervisors) forwarded to him last May and setting forth their dissatisfaction with the treatment accorded to them in his announcement of 3rd May, 1912?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The petitions in question contained no points of which I was not aware when I made my announcement to the deputation on 3rd May last, and I have nothing to add to the statement then made.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what number of surveyors' districts, for merly Excise districts, are at present vacant; whether there are any officials with sufficient Excise experience competent to be advanced to these posts; and why the appointments are delayed?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The number of districts referred to is eighteen, and the question of appointing surveyors to them is under consideration. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked whether there is any evidence, and, if so, the nature thereof, that ex-Customs officials engaged upon Revenue Duties of a character different to those upon which they were for merly employed have had to resort to their subordinates for guidance and instruction in the duties of their present position, and in what manner the efficiency of the Customs and Excise Department is affected thereby?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No evidence of the kind suggested has been brought before the Board of Customs and Excise by the responsible local collectors, whether as regards ex-Customs officials who have been engaged on Excise work, or as regards ex-Excise officials who have been engaged on Customs work. The Board are satisfied with the reports hitherto

  461
  received, and do not apprehend that the efficiency of the service will be in any way impaired.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Department has any knowledge of the fact that Customs officials have asked to go back to the work at which they were formerly engaged, and which they are competent to do?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am not aware of that.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will inquire certainly if the right hon. Gentleman will put down a question on the Paper.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
Mr. HUGH BARRIE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely: Whether, in view of the most serious losses already sustained by Irish agriculturists since the outbreak of cattle disease and the widespread alarm felt in Ireland with reference to the new and drastic restrictions announced last night by the Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture, admittedly under pressure of the English Board of Agriculture, he will at once arrange to provide a more adequate opportunity than is available at our evening adjournments in order to discuss the whole question, even if it should involve the House sitting on Saturday first?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid, in view of the great labours of the House, I cannot propose a Saturday sitting. The question can be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. BARRIE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this threatens to be a national calamity?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am fully aware of the magnitude and urgency of the matter.
Mr. FIELD: May I ask the Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture the reason why in the Order that has been issued four counties in Ireland are scheduled, whereas under the English Regulations only a fifteen miles' cordon would be enforced?
Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture, Ireland): I have no information from Ireland to-day. There is no centre of foot-and-mouth disease in the country at the present time, and the Order issued last night was issued to deal with circumstances of suspicion, and not because of the actual presence of disease.
Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether ho is in agreement with the English Board as to the policy that is being carried out?
Mr. RUSSELL: The two Boards are working together in harmony, both having the same object—to stamp out the disease wherever it takes place.
Mr. MULDOON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely: Whether his attention has been called to an article by Sir John McFadyean, principal of the lloyal Veterinary College, Camden Town, in the "Journal of Comparative Pathology," on the subject of foot-and-mouth disease, in which he states that although the symptoms presented by a single animal may resemble those of the disease in question, the case may be set down as not foot-and-mouth disease when, in spite of abundant, opportunities for infection, it does not spread to other cattle or to sheep; whether it is not a fact that no traces of the disease have been found in either of the cargoes of cattle detained at the South Wall, Dublin, and at Dundee; and whether, in view of these circumstances, he still adheres to the opinion that the animals in question suffered from foot-and-mouth disease?
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman): I only received notice of the question this afternoon. I have had no opportunity of looking up the article in question, but when I have had an opportunity of doing so I shall be able to give a fuller reply to the hon. Member.
Mr. MULDOON: May I ask whether Sir John McFadyean is not president of the Commission the right hon. Gentleman is sending to India to inquire into this subject; whether he is not, perhaps, the best living authority on the subject; and whether, if the right hon. Gentleman finds that he has written, as I have suggested, he will take immediate steps to quash the

463
Order issued last night upon the strength of the two cases which have been referred to?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have said that I have had no opportunity of looking up the article to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and I have no means of knowing whether the extract read from it has any bearing whatever on our present circumstances. Sir John McFadyean is a distinguished pathologist and his opinion has frequently been taken on matters relating to foot-and-mouth disease. I shall be quite prepared to quote his opinion on cases similar to this, either inside or outside this House, if it is called for.
Mr. MULDOON: I beg to give notice that I will repeat the question to-morrow.
Captain MURRAY: As this cattle question is of enormous importance to Scotland, I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether it would not be possible to have a few hours' discussion upon it after the guillotine falls on Friday?
The PRIME MINISTER: I will consider that. The hon. Member means Friday of this week?
Captain MURRAY: Yes.
Mr. GINNELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether it is a fact that he has refused to open British ports to Irish cattle, sheep, and pigs unless the Irish Agricultural Department scheduled as infected North-West Meath and other districts which that Department certifies to be free from infection, and whether, seeing that in the doubtful case traced to Kells, the Department certifies that the cattle from among which the suspected animal came have never had the disease, he will say on what ground he insists upon the imposition of restrictions on a country twenty miles in radius; and having regard to the ruinous effects of those restrictions, and the fact that the suspected case was old and dormant, if he will say when his Order requiring those restrictions will be removed in the event of no other case occurring?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: It may be convenient in reply to that question that I should make a full statement, though I have not received the question which the hon. Gentleman has read out. An Order was issued yesterday which permits the landing of
464
Irish animals for slaughter at the authorised landing places provided they come from districts with regard to which we can be reasonably confident that foot-and-mouth disease does not exist there, and out of which the movement of animals has not for some time been prohibited. In view of the circumstances, which I explained fully to the House on Monday night, I do not think that any further modification of the restrictions can be made at the present moment consistently with full security against the introduction of the disease into Great Britain; but the situation is being closely and continuously-watched by my right hon. Friend the Vice-President and myself, and I hope, if-no fresh cases occur, that it may be possible for me before very long to provide for the addition of a number of store cattle from those parts of Ireland to which there is no reason to believe the disease has been conveyed. They would, of course, be subject to a short period of detention and supervision at the landing places and subquently on the farms to which they are sent. I hope also to be able at the same time to extend the area from which the animals are allowed to enter British ports for slaughter.
Mr. GINNELL: That is no answer to the question which was handed in by me at the right hon. Gentleman's office at twenty minutes past eleven this morning. Allow mo to ask him a question which he can answer now: Whether it is or is not a fact that he refused to open British ports to Irish cattle, sheep, and pigs, unless the Agricultural Department scheduled as infected Westmeath and other districts which that Department certify to be free from infection?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Irish Department has not certified those districts free from infection. What they have said is that they have not been able to ascertain any disease in them. For a short time, and only for a short time, while the districts are under suspicion, it is much better to err on the side of caution.
Mr. GINNELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what grounds he requires a country twenty miles in radius to be restricted?
Mr. MacVEAGH: I wish to know whether the area scheduled under last night's Order was scheduled at the instance of the English Board, or whether it was done at the direct instance of the

465
Irish Department of Agriculture? I wish to ask also whether, if it is the English Board that is responsible for this indiscriminate scheduling of Irish areas, the right hon. Gentleman can state on what grounds he has scheduled the county Down, seeing that there has not been a case of foot-and-mouth disease in that county for fifty years?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: The two Departments are working conjointly in this matter. It is only by the arrangement which was arrived at on Monday and yesterday that the immediate resumption of the importation of fat animals into this country could have been attained. If we had not arrived at an arrangement of that kind it would not have been possible for us so soon to have resumed the importation of fat animals.
Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Are we to understand from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman that the export of fat rattle from the entire province of Munster is now free?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: I have stated, and the hon. Gentleman will see from a copy of the Order which I can send to him, that fat cattle from the province of Munster can come into this country quite freely, being slaughtered at the landing places which are detailed in the Order.
Mr. W. A. REDMOND: Are we to understand that fat cattle are prohibited not only from export from the restricted areas in Ulster, but also from being removed from place to place within the confines of those areas?
Mr. RUNCMAN: I speak under correction, but I believe that the Irish Order provides for the free movement within the area, and only, therefore, restricts movement out of the area.
Mr. GINNELL: I beg to give notice that I will call attention to this on the Motion for Adjournment to-night, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman will he contrive to be in his place at that time?

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Can the Prime Minister make any statement as to the business of next week?
  Mr. LAURENCE HARDY: And will the right hon. Gentleman also tell us about Friday, and whether he has given consideration to that matter.
  4.0 P.M.
  The PRIME MINISTER: On Friday we propose to take the Established Church (Wales) Bill, and also on Mon day and Tuesday of next week. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will renew his question to-morrow?
  Mr. LEE: Will the Lords Amendments to the Criminal Law Amendment Bill be taken to-night?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That all depends upon the length of time taken by the Divisions. If it can be done it will be taken to-night. H not, it will be taken tomorrow.
  Mr. LEE: Will we be likely to secure the Royal Assent this week for the Criminal Law Amendment Bill?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That will depend on the time taken for the Debate on Friday, but I earnestly hope that the Royal Assent will be given to the Bill this week.

GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.
Considered in Committee.
TWENTY-SIXTH ALLOTTED DAY.— [Progress, 10th December.]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
TRANSITORY.

  CLAUSE 42.—(First Meeting of Irish Parliament and First Election of Reduced Number of Irish Members.)
  (1) The Irish Parliament shall be summoned to meet on the first Tuesday in September, nineteen hundred and thirteen, and the first election of members of the Irish House of Commons shall be held at such time before that day as may be fixed by His Majesty by Order in Council made for the purpose of the transitory provisions of this Act.
  (2) Upon the first meeting of the Irish Parliament, the members returned by con-
  490
  stituencies in Ireland to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom and then sitting in that Parliament shall vacate their seats, and writs shall, as soon as conveniently may be, be issued by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland for the purpose of holding an election of members to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom for the constituencies mentioned in the Second Part of the First Schedule to this Act.
  (3) Subject to the provisions of this Act, all existing election laws relating to the Commons House of Parliament of the United Kingdom and the members thereof shall, so far as applicable, extend to the Irish House of Commons and the members thereof; but those election laws may, except as provided by this Act, be altered by Irish Act.
  His Majesty may by Order in Council make such provisions as may appear to him necessary or proper for making any provisions of the election laws applicable to elections of members of the Irish House of Commons.
  (4) The Lord Lieutenant shall determine by lot which of the first Senators are to retire in the second, fourth, and sixth year and the term of office of those Senators shall be reduced accordingly.
  Amendment proposed: To leave out Sub-section (1).—[Sir Rufus Isaacs.]
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I invite the earnest attention of such Members of the Committee as take an interest in this Bill to the extraordinary and difficult position at which we have arrived in the course of this discussion. As the result of the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman, Clause 46 will, when amended, cause the machinery to go out of gear, and will produce, if the Bill becomes an Act,. a complete state of chaos. At the same time I would point out to the Committee that the discussions last night have conclusively established the truth of two main contentions that have been consistently urged against this Bill upon this side of the House. In the first place, we have always contended that the severe and drastic guillotine restrictions under which we have to discuss this Bill indicate a deliberate and preconceived determination on the part of His Majesty's Government that there should and would be no free

  491
  discussion of this Bill. As a matter of fact, I do not think anyone will deny that even before this Bill was introduced into this House, its provisions had been agreed upon between the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and hon. Members below the Gangway from Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister shakes his head at that, but I will give him an authority which I do not think any human being will attempt to contradict. So far back as 26th April of the present year, that was before this Bill was introduced into the House of Commons at all, the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) sent a telegram to the "Chicago Tribune" which contained this passage, which I will read exactly as it was cabled:
  "Redmond. Dillon, and myself met Asquith and Samuel for the last time on Friday to discuss some of the final small details of the Measure, and both parties were full of equally hearty congratulations to each other for the splendid triumph of their common cause and common fortunes,"
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I welcome those cheers, because they indicate the truth of the assertion that I make, that, before ever this Bill was introduced into this House of Commons, it had assumed a complete triumph in the ultimate form in which it was definitely settled at this interesting meeting which took place between the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen I have named. The date of that message is 26th April, 1912.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): Long after the Bill was introduced.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: If it was long after the Bill was introduced it only indicates that the entire Committee stage has been a farce, and a farce to the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman, because we have the express statement, with which apparently the right hon. Gentleman now agrees and which he endorses, that, before ever the Committee stage was reached, even down to minute details, there had been a final agreement on the contents of the Bill made between the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members below the Gangway. The next contention on which we have always insisted is that the sole and only object of the ridiculous proceeding that we pretend to go through here night after night, tramping through the Lobbies, and exposing, not only ourselves, but the whole life and traditions of Parliament to degradation and humiliation.
  The CHAIRMAN: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell me how this arises on the Amendment1? So far, it would appear not to be permissible at this point, though it may arise at a later stage of the Bill.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: May I call your attention to the fact, Sir. that we are now discussing one of the most vital and important Clauses in connection with the whole Bill, namely, the question of the date or dates at which this Act is to come into operation? When we sought to move Amendments with a view to elucidating the question on Clause? of the Bill, we got a distinct pledge from the Prime Minister that we would have an opportunity for full and free discussion of this measure. When the opportunity for full and free discussion came, how was it dealt with? We were to have had it under this very Clause 42, but every word relating to the appointed day in that Clause is to be eliminated by the Amendment which the Chief Secretary is moving, with the result that this promised freedom of discussion is to take place on Clause 46. which will be rushed through to-night in conjunction with half a dozen other Clauses, without giving the slightest opportunity for discussion.
  The CHAIRMAN: To make the matter quite clear, I would point out that under the Amendment now before the Committee and moved by the Government to leave out Sub-section (1) of Clause 42, the question T have put to the Committee is: "That Sub-section (1) stand part of the Clause," and therefore clearly it is relevant to discuss any matter in the Sub-section as it now exists, namely, the time between the passing of the Act and the appointed day, or the date when the Act is to come into operation. Within these limits, as I said some time ago, of course the discussion would be quite free, but it must be within those limits, and based on the question of what time is to elapse between the passing of the Act and the appointed day.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: With great respect, Sir, that is only a part of the case. The Clause which the Amendment seeks to amend is Clause 46. That does not deal with merely one appointed day, and it raises a very important and difficult question as to the number of appointed days. We are not at liberty to move Amendments even if we had Amendments on the Paper, and it is plain that we will have no time for discussion; therefore, I submit that in

  493
  fulfilment of the promise repeatedly given here, and to which you yourself, Sir, were a party, we ought to be allowed to discuss the whole question of the appointed day on this Amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN: Oh, yes, that is so. The right hon. Gentleman may certainly discuss along with this Amendment the proposals of the Government to amend Clause 46. They naturally form one whole, and the right hon. Gentleman is quite in order in discussing that part of Clause 46 in connection with the present Amendment.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: It is very difficult, but I shall do my best, Sir, to keep within the four corners of your ruling. I want especially to call attention to the discussion which took place last night, and also to the obvious points and arguments which arise upon the position in which the Committee now find themselves placed in regard to the question of the appointed day. I wish to make out the point that the object of the Government is to get this Bill through in any shape and leave succeeding generations to correct the blots; in other words, their only interest is to fulfil their pledge and promise to hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. Even a mere cursory examination of the provisions of this Bill will satisfy any person that almost every line of it, certainly every Clause, will be a gold mine for litigation, and it will take years of judicial decisions, at the expense of many thousands of pounds, to bring its machinery into working order; and that is made particularly plain by the extraordinary condition of confusion and complication into which the Government have brought this question of dates. When the Act is to come into operation, is distinct from the date of the passing of the Act. The way it stands, as I gather, is this: You omit altogether from Clause 42, as the result of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, all reference in that Clause to any provisions for fixing the date for the appointed day, or for the Act to come into operation, and the sole and only provision that will regulate that will then be Clause 46. How will Clause 46 read when amended? I invite the attention of the Committee to this because I believe I will demonstrate that if this Clause 46 is to be passed with the Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, the whole thing will be left in such a state of confusion and contradiction as to defy the most subtle
  494
  intellect, ever to bring it into successful operation. It will run in this way:—
  "The appointed day for the purposes of this Act shall be the first Tuesday in the eighth month after the month in which this Act is passed."
  That plainly involves this, and there will be no contradiction about the matter, that this Parliament may not be set up until after the expiration of at least fourteen months from the date of the passing of the Act, because the appointed day is to be in the eighth month, and there is power to extend that, so that you are giving a total time to work upon, and this was explained by the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General yesterday, of fourteen months between the date of the passing of the Act and the date at which the Parliament may or may not be set up. What is going to happen in the interval?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Fifteen months.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I was putting it at fourteen months; it might be a little short of fifteen months, and I said fourteen in order to be within the mark. I will take it at fifteen, which, of course, makes my case stronger. What is to happen in the interval? Let us see how the matter stands. I do not want to go over the ground which was covered in the absence of the Prime Minister, whose absence I do not complain of, as I am sure he was otherwise busily occupied, but in his absence last night there was a very elaborate and able criticism of these particular provisions by the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel). He went very fully through these points and showed that you had left the whole question as to what portions of your Bill were to come into operation at the date of the passing of the Act, as distinguished from the appointed day, in a wholly vague and illusory condition. Of course, every lawyer knows that if nothing is said in an Act of Parliament as to the time at which any particular provision is to come into operation, it will come into operation at the date of the passing of the Act. The extraordinary thing you have done here is this: While it is plain, and you say so in express terms, that many of its provisions are to come into operation at the date of the passing of the Act, as regards a great many others you leave the date only to be inferred by that legal inference; while as regards some you retain the right to have powers within appointed days for their coming into

  495
  effect. See what the effect of that will be; let me take a few illustrations.
  Assume that you have no Parliament until twelve months after the date of the passing of the Act—that date is as good as any other for the purposes of my argument—and it is within the fifteen months, then what is to happen in the meantime? You have by your Bill in express terms transferred a number of present Imperial services to Ireland under the denomination of Irish services; you have transferred them as from the date of the passing of the Act, because, as I have said, you have fixed no time at which they are to be transferred, and, therefore, under the ordinary legal inference that occurs at the time that the Act is passed.
  The PRIME MINISTERmade an observation which was inaudible.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: That is plain, and I thought the right hon. Gentleman was in agreement with me. This point was admitted by the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General yesterday, and I will tell you the explanation he gave, and a very remarkable one. He gave one explanation one minute and contradicted it a few minutes afterwards. What will happen then? Who are going to take charge of these Irish services? Who will be responsible for them? Let me point out some other matters that the Irish Executive will be bound to take charge of on the day this Act passes. They will be bound to take charge of the judiciary, because your Bill expressly provides that "from and after the date of the passing of this Act" the judiciary are to be appointed by the Irish Executive or by the Lord Lieutenant on their advice. Let me give a few more illustrations of* what happens immediately after the Act passes. Clause 4 is the Clause setting up an Executive, and a very important Clause in this connection. I will deal with it in another connection in a few minutes. Let me take Clause 14, a very important Financial Clause which arranges that the Transferred Sum is to be ascertained and paid over at the date of the passing of the Act—that is to say, before you have got an Exchequer set up to receive it or before you have got an Executive to administer it—but in the express terms of Clause 14 that Transferred Sum is to be ascertained at the time of the passing of this Act, and, the previous Section says, is to be transferred to the Irish Exchequer.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Not at that date.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I am not saying anything about dates. If the right hon. Gentleman had been here last night and heard the Attorney-General he would have known the necessity of having this matter cleared up, and he would have seen that the views which he at present appears to hold are not in accordance with those of his colleagues. Let me call attention to what Clause 14, Sub-section (2), provides:—
  "The proceeds of all taxes levied in Ireland, whether under the authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom or of the Irish Parliament, shall be paid into the Exchequer of the, United Kingdom, but subject as hereinafter provided there shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom…to the Irish Exchequer, a sum…"
  The right hon. Gentleman says it does not say when it has to be paid. I again remind him of the elementary legal principle that where there is nothing put in and where no date is specified in the Act of Parliament for anything to happen, the assumption is it is to happen at the date of the passing of the Act. That is borne out in this case, because the sum to be paid is to be ascertained at the date of the passing of the Act, and if it is to be ascertained, why is it not to be paid over? Who is to keep it? What is to be done with it? Is the Exchequer to fiddle with it or what is to become of it? But who is to get it? Is it Irish money to be paid to the Irish Exchequer, and is it to be impounded by the Imperial Exchequer? It is perfectly plain from the very language of their Bill, in the absence of any other date, that the date of the transfer is to be and must be the date of the passing of the Act. Let us come to a few more Clauses. Clause 27 I have already dealt with—that is, the Clause which makes the Lord Lieutenant fill any vacancies in the judicial bench "after the passing of this Act." Those words were put in by an Amendment of the Government, and, therefore, it is perfectly plain that the very day the Act passes, if there was a vacancy the following day, it is to be filled by the Lord Lieutenant under this Act.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I agree.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I do not think there is much importance in that agreement; you could hardly contravene the

  497
  express language of your own Bill when it takes the shape of an Amendment moved by yourselves. We come now to Clause 28, and what is the next thing that is to happen the very day the Act passes? Irish litigants are going to be deprived of the right to have appeals heard by the Appeal Tribunal of the House of Lords, and from the date of the passing of the Act all those appeals are to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I say that because, in the absence of any particular date, the legal principle again operates, and that will result as a necessary consequence after the passing of this Act. I now come back to Clause 4, and here is where the absurdity of the position becomes very, very startling indeed. You hand over your Irish services from the date of the passing of the Act, and you impose obligations of various kinds in connection with the administration of Ireland, and who are you going to put them upon? Of course the Irish Executive, and when this was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General yesterday, and when the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras said, "Oh, yes, you are handing over duties to an Executive, but you cannot call your Executive into being until after your Parliament has met," what was the answer of the Attorney-General? In an interruption of the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras he said:—
  "I have said that there must be an Executive at once."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th December 1912, col. 876.]
  That was his interruption, and when he came to make his speech he said the very opposite. Here is what he said in his speech:—
  "You have a situation created under this Bill under which to get Members of Parliament elected, and from the Members of Parliament you select your Executive, and, having got your Executive, you can set up the various Departments."—[OFFICIAL "REPORT, 10th December, 1912, col. 393.]
  So that by way of interruption the right hon. Gentleman informed the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras that they would not wait for a Parliament to set up an Executive, but that the Executive was going to be set up at once, and when he came to reply he said the Executive would only be set up after you have got your Parliament and the Executive would be elected, and that that is the object and intention of the Bill is plain, because if you look at Clause 4 there is this very remarkable provision in it:—
  "No such person shall hold office as an Irish Minister for a longer period than six months unless he is or becomes a
  498
  member of one of the Houses of the Irish Parliament."
  That plainly indicates that you only contemplated an Irish Executive selected from and created out of the House of Commons, but, at any rate, the thing was put, as I have said, beyond doubt by the right hon. Gentleman yesterday in his speech, because he distinctly used the language I have quoted, and the meaning of it is as, plain as words can make one's meaning plain. What a grotesque position that will be! Take it either way, I do not care which way it is taken. Supposing that the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General was right in his first view, namely, that the Executive would be created the moment the Act passed, to what Parliament would that Executive be responsible? Under the frame of the Bill there may be no Parliament for fifteen months, and meanwhile you are going to expose the people in Ireland, including the loyal community there who dislike and detest this Bill in every particular, to the control and supremacy of an Irish Executive which for fifteen months may have no Parliament to which it is responsible. You cannot have it both ways; you cannot insert the power in this Bill to postpone the election of your Parliament for fifteen months, and at the same time say that you can set up an Executive at once without admitting that that means you can have an Executive in office for fifteen months regulating and controlling the destinies of Ireland with no Parliament even that they can be made answerable to. That is unprecedented in the history of any free people. It is unprecedented that you should take powers, as you are doing in this Bill, to set up an Executive which may remain in power and in office uncontrolled and unfettered for fifteen months, without any Parliament being in existence in which explanations may be asked or received as to its conduct of affairs.
  Suppose the right hon. Gentleman was right, and that you cannot have an Executive until you have a Parliament. The position is still more ridiculous, because in the meantime you have transferred your services, and you are bound to transfer to something or to somebody this Transferred Sum. At the same time the control of the judiciary passes over, and somebody has to do the other duties that pass over to Ireland the moment the Bill is passed, without waiting for the appointed day, the moment it receives the Royal Assent. Then, when the right hon. Gentleman was

  499
  hard pressed, he did that which we have seen is so common here in the course of these Debates. Some of his colleagues from behind thrust a copy of an Act of Parliament into his hands, and he then said, "You will find an analogy if you look at the Education Act of 1902." I venture to say that he never read that Act before he quoted it or he never would have quoted it, because a stronger condemnation of the course which is adopted in this Bill it is impossible to conceive. If you refer to that Clause in the Bill of 1902 you will find that it is quite a sensible Clause. It says:—
  "Except where otherwise expressly provided, the date of the passing of the Act is to be the appointed day."
  Everybody can understand that. It is intelligent and it is legal, and everybody knows what it means. It means that unless the Act says something to the contrary, the appointed day is to be the date of the passing of the Act, and the date of the passing of the Act is vice versâ to be the appointed day. But you do not find anything of that kind here. You do not find the date of the passing of the Act and then find words preventing portions of the Act coming into operation until an appointed day. You do not find the provisions which were contained in the Education Act. That was a very intelligible thing to do. But here you do not find any such provision as that to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. You find the very opposite. You leave a variety of these things to come into operation by legal inference, by an irresistible inference I admit, on the date of the passing of the Act. You have left others to come into operation by express provision on the date of the passing of the Act. But you have held up certain undefined things, with power to appoint clays, and you have not even defined the things for which you are going to have particular appointed days. I defy anyone who reads this Bill to give a goor reason for his opinion as to what particular provisions the Government propose should be held up until the appointed day. The whole thing is a mass of contradiction and confusion, and I defy anyone to give it any intelligent or plausible meaning. I do not complain of the remarkable contradiction between the two statements of the Attorney-General. He first said, "An Executive will be set up the moment the Act is passed," and his next statement was, "You cannot have an
  500
  Executive until you get your Parliament, because you must choose your Executive from it."
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): I do not admit there is any contradiction.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I have already read the exact words. The first interruption of the right hon. Gentleman was made in reply to the hon. Member for St. Pancras, who pointed out that you were imposing duties upon an Executive without power to create an Executive, and that the Executive would not be created until after the appointed day. Then the right hon. Gentleman interrupted and in effect said, "We propose that the Executive should be appointed immediately after the passing of the Act." In column 376 of the OFFICIAL REPORT the right hon. Gentleman says:—
  "I have said that there must be an Executive at once."
  Of course he was driven to say that when the absurdity of the position was pointed out. Then he made this admission. The Member for St. Pancras had put him on the other horn of a dilemma, and had said, "If you are going to have an Executive at once, are you going to have an Executive that may remain in office for fifteen months without any Parliament to which it is responsible?" Upon that, the right hon. Gentleman made a complete right-about-face. I am now at column 393. He said:—
  "Yon have a situation created in which yon get Members of Parliament elected, and from the Members of Parliament yon select your Executive, and having got your Executive, yon can set up your various Departments."
  I think no one can suggest that I have not been perfectly explicit in pointing out the statements he made and what they clearly and precisely conveyed. At least we must assume that they conveyed this, if language has any meaning, and if the meaning is that which the words plainly bear out. These are some of the extraordinary results and anomalies which flow from this business. I next come to the Joint Exchequer Board. When is it to be set up? It is the Board, remember, which has to get the Transferred Sum. I cannot find any date for the setting up of the Exchequer Board. I have no doubt we will get this ridiculous and absurd argument from the Attorney-General, that you can rely upon Orders in Council to do these things. That is ludicrous because there is no Order in Council that can have

  501
  power to set up a Joint Exchequer Board if the legal inference is inevitable from the phrasing of the Act itself. If the Exchequer Board is set up the moment the Act is passed, you cannot override that by an Order in Council. Let me put it in this way. Supposing that your Bill said the Exchequer Board should be set up from the date of the Bill passing into law. You cannot override that by an Order in Council. It is perfectly plain you cannot. In the absence of any statement to the contrary, your Exchequer Board is just as much bound to be set up the day the Bill passes as if the Bill said so in express terms, and therefore you have no more power by an Order in Council to do these things than you would have to abolish this present House of Commons.
  Then again if the Joint Exchequer Board is not to be set up on the appointed day, what becomes of the Transferred Sum? Is it like Mahomet's coffin to be hanging between England and Ireland. Is it to be in the pockets of the Treasury here, or in the pockets of the non-existing Treasury in Ireland? The thing is put in a perfect quagmire of confusion. Now there are many other illustrations of my case in very many of these provisions, but I come back now to the extraordinary provision in this Clause 46 as regards the appointed day in that place, as to the first election of the Irish House of Commons. It is perfectly plain if you look at the framing of this Bill that there must be one appointed day under Clause 1. That is to say an appointed day upon which Ireland will be given power to have a Parliament of her own. Then, again, the day of the meeting of this Parliament must be another appointed day. You must get one appointed day upon which Ireland will have the power to have a Parliament. That is given in Clause 1, and having got that, you must have another appointed day for the meeting of that Parliament, and that is to be found in Clause 46: and that is the reason, I presume, why the Government have taken power to do these extraordinary things, and have found it necessary to have one appointed day for one thing and a wholly different appointed day for another thing. But that being so, what is to happen to the 103 and the forty-two Members. The forty-two Members are to be elected on the appointed day for having a Parliament. The 103 Members are not to leave this House until the appointed day for the meeting of Parlia-
  502
  ment in Ireland. I hope the Prime Minister will deal with this. It is a point in which there is absolute confusion. I am referring to the distinction there is between the appointed day on which Ireland is to have liberty, to have a Parliament under Clause 1, and the appointed day which imposes a term under which this Parliament is to meet. Will he toll us why these two different dates are imposed. When you come to provide for the election of the forty-two new Irish Members, are they to be elected on the first of those appointed days? But the 103 Irish Members are not to leave this House until the day fixed for the meeting of the Irish Parliament, and if this has any purpose or meaning at all, or any purpose which can be understood, it seems to me that it is the desire of hon. Gentlemen opposite to have the use of these eighty-six Members as long as possible, so that they may be utilised for the carrying through of their programme after they have got rid of the Home Rule question. It seems to me that is the ulterior motive. What is at the back and behind all this. The right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General said that this was a mere trivial matter; that the whole of Clause 42 was a trivial matter. It was as clear as mud. With that delightful manner and gracious courtesy which we all recognise and appreciate, he skimmed round and carefully avoided the thin ice, and he was quite successful in confusing the matter which, he said, was a trivial matter.
  Of course, everybody knows what is the motive behind all these manœuvres and these complicated arrangements. First of all, as I have said, it is to keep here as long as possible and until the last moment this phalanx of Irish Members; and the next object is to keep these respective measures, which form the bribe and support of the conflicting parties which make up the majority—to keep them all in favour each with the other, and to run this legislation pari passu, so that no one measure can get an advantage over the other—so that there may be a guarantee that these three measures will be passed without giving an opportunity of priority to one as compared with the other. Otherwise what is the meaning of synchronising the date of the possible meeting of the Irish Parliament with the possible date when the Welsh Church Bill is to come into operation? That is a mere coincidence, of course, but does it not plainly show that the object is to encourage these different parties to have confidence in each other,

  503
  so that each may believe that his own party is not to be left out in the cold, and so that all the Members of this conglomeration will each get his pound of flesh? But there is another object. I venture to suggest, whatever hon. Gentlemen or right hon. Gentlemen opposite may say, that their conscience is not quite easy, such conscience as they have left, because it has been nearly worn out, having stood so much. But whatever is left must be uneasy on the question whether or not they have a mandate for Home Rule. Now the reason why I say that they must be particularly uneasy is that of the 280 Members who were returned to this Parliament as Radicals in December, 1910, 184 made no mention of Home Rule in their election addresses. That is a concrete fact which cannot be denied. That is to say, fully two-thirds of hon. Gentlemen opposite who sit there and still avow that they were sent to this House with a mandate for Home Rule, did not even think of it when they came to issue their election addresses; and the right hon. Gentleman must know that not only in his conscience, but even in the conscience of many of his own followers in the Press, there is a very uneasy feeling in regard to this contention that Home Rule was not made one of the foremost planks in the programme. We have now responsible organs of the party admitting that, although it was a cardinal factor, it was not the chief factor. It seems to me to be like a card called "the Joker" in a celebrated game—a sort of card which you might use or not, but a very big one to use if you put it forward as a trump card.
  I am bound to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary has always regarded this Bill as a joke. What is it the Government are at in regard to this— because I am not one of those innocent people who assume that all this machinery is for nothing? I am not one of those who assume that the Government are going to throw this young and infant Irish House of Parliament into this extraordinary confusion, which it will take them years to extricate themselves from, for nothing. They have found that it will suit them to have an election after this Bill is passed into law, and before it comes into operation. I think there are good grounds for saying that, because the official Radical candidate at Mid-Lothian expressly said so, and said he was speaking with authority. He pledged himself to his constituents, or those whom he wanted to be
  504
  his constituents, that there would be— must be—a General Election before this Bill came into operation. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty about the same time said something very like the same thing, but he did not say it quite as plainly. I believe this device of right hon. Gentlemen to keep control by means of this elaborate provision in Clause 46 is one that is not very creditable to themselves, or honourable even as a matter of political manœuvres or tactics. This Bill is to receive the Royal Assent—if under any conditions they ever induce anyone to give the Royal Assent to it—and they will be able to say, "Now we will go to the country, and then you will not be able to say that the country has not had an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion upon the Bill." If they are beaten when they go to the country, they want to put us—that is, the Unionist Government—which would then come into office, in the position of reversing a thing which, although it has not come into operation, has become an Act of Parliament. It is a plain device, a clever manœeuvre, but not a very creditable one. It is plain on the face of the provisions of this Bill. I have considered it very carefully, and I can find no explanation other than those I have suggested as to why this Bill has been left in this deplorable condition. As I have said, they do not follow precedent. They have rejected all precedent. If they had followed precedent they would have followed the Act of 1902, and they would have said: "Except where otherwise expressly provided this date of the passing of the Act is to be the same as the appointed day." That is in the Act of 1902. It is intelligent, and it is good sense. While they have made some things come into operation upon the actual passing of the Act, they have failed to provide any machinery or to create any Executive or body to take charge of such things as are to be transferred. They have left these administrative, Executive, and judicial bodies to be created on appointed days which are not named. They have left the whole thing in this state of confusion, and they preserve to themselves the right to appoint any number of appointed days. They do not specify the particular matter to which each of these appointed days is to refer, nor do they define themselves what these various matters are to be. They cannot deny—and this is the main point which I wish really to put—that they cannot deal with matters which they have provided in

  505
  the Bill shall come into operation on the date of the passing of the Act. They have no power, by Order in Council or otherwise, to defer the operation a day or an hour of the powers of the Act in so far as the Bill provides. It must come into operation. It cannot be denied if the Bill is left in this position that a number of most important matters in connection with it are to take effect legally and in point of law on the day the Bill passes, whereas in fact if they come into effect, there is no machinery, no Executive, no power to appoint an Executive, and no provision made for the purpose of providing this machinery for the future appointed day. If the answer is given to me that it is proposed by Order in Council, or by this system of machinery of the appointed day to start the Executive on the day the Bill passes, then the Government are up against an unconstitutional anomaly that by so doing they will be putting in office an Executive who may, under the terms of their own Bill, remain for months irresponsible and without an Irish Parliament calling them to order. For these reasons I certainly am not merely against the Amendment, but against the Clause.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think when the matter comes to be looked at closely and fairly, it will be found not to present the difficulties and ambiguities which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has suggested. He says that in the proposals of the Government, first of all in the first Sub-section of this Clause, and then in a subsequent Clause, Clause 46, there is some dark, sinister and ulterior purpose. I am sure the right and learned Gentleman will not accept my assurance that it is not so.
  J. H. CAMPBELL: I accept it, but——
  The PRIME MINISTER: He accepts it, but he does not believe it. As a matter of fact, although the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not accept my assurance, there is no such purpose. We have based our policy on what we believe to be the precedents of Parliamentary legislation over a long series of years. What is the problem with which we have to deal? You are calling into existence— I agree on a larger scale and dealing with more serious matters than has been the case hitherto— a new legislature, a new Executive. Some provision must be made before the machinery gets to work for setting up the machine itself. The only way
  506
  of doing that is to provide before the Act comes into full operation, before the new machine you are creating proceeds to discharge the functions you are entrusting to it there shall be an interval—or interregnum if you like—in which, by Orders in Council, the preliminary steps for creation of constituencies, elections, and, if necessary, 'an intermediate Executive shall be brought into existence. What we have done is that we propose to provide in Clause 46 of the Bill, by an Order in Council, that certain provisions should be brought into effect with reference to particular matters. We propose that different days may be appointed for different purposes and different conditions. In that we are following strictly in the line of past legislation, and in particular the legislation of our Unionist predecessors.
  An exactly similar provision is to be found in the Local Government of Ireland Act, 1898—so far as this point is concerned. There are fixed dates given. I am coming to that presently. But as regards this intermediate, preliminary, or anticipatory stage, exactly similar provisions are made in the Act of 1898 as we propose to make in this Bill—that is to say, that by an Order in Council particular provisions of the Act may be brought into operation at particular dates which shall not be simultaneous. Exactly the same thing is provided in the later, and very important, Act—the Education Act of 1902. In that Act, Clause 27, Sub-section (2), it is stated in these terms:—
  "The Act shall come into operation on an appointed day."
  The appointed day is fixed as a particular date. I agree, a point of distinction; but the point I am now upon is this:—
  "Different days may be appointed for different purposes and different provisions of the Act."
  The particular provision which you are bringing into existence, a new Legislature and a new Executive, with all the consequences that follow in that creation, is entirely in accordance with the precedents of previous legislation. It is in accordance with precedent that Parliament should entrust the Executive, by the operation of an Order in Council, on different days in successive stages, to provide what I may call the process of the creation of the machinery before the machinery comes into actual operative existence. So far I do not think there will be any difference of opinion.
  Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Who will have the appointment of the Irish Executive during the interregnum?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I will come to that. I am only now pointing out that the making provision by an Order in Council for these preliminary matters before the system is brought into operation is in strict accordance with precedent. I do not go further than that. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that there are certain provisions in the Act, as I understood his argument, which come into operation at once upon the passing of the Act.
  5.0 P.M.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELLassented.
  5.0 p.m.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Let us see what these are. I am referring now to cases where words are expressly used in an Act. In Clause 27 it is provided, I agree, by express terms, that a judge of the Supreme Court appointed after the passing of the Act shall be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, with the consequences that follow. I think that the criticism of the hon. and learned Gentleman on that is very fair. I think those words "after the passing of the Act" should be omitted. I do not think there ought to be a time after the passing of the Act, and before the creation and bringing into existence of the Irish Parliament and the Irish Executive, during which the provisions of this Clause shall apply. In the other Clause which the right hon. Gentleman refers to, and in which I agree the words do occur, Clause 14—I am sure he will agree with this—the words "at the time of the passing of the Act" are only to be found in Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), and they refer, not to the time at which the Transferred Sum shall be paid, but to the time at which it shall be ascertained. Of course, it must be be ascertained subsequently. What the Bill points to is the date as from which it shall be ascertained—the date of the passing of the Act. I think we are agreed upon that. Now I refer to these two points, although I agree they do not affect the main substance of the right hon. Gentleman's argument, but s y far as I know they are the only two cases in the Bill in which the expression "passing of the Act" occurs.
  Mr. CASSEL: There are other Clauses.
  The PRIME MINISTER: They are not material, so far as I know.
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Clause 32.
  The PRIME MINISTER: That has been altered.
  Mr. CASSEL: Only in some places.
  The PRIME MINISTER: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that important he can develop it in the course of the Debate, but so far as I know these were the two cases. I want to state this quite plainly, because here we are not dealing with the final form of the Act, and upon Report stage I am prepared to make the necessary drafting Amendments, and I want to say what the Government's intention really is and to see whether that intention is carried out by the Bill as drafted. Our intention is that the Bill as an Act shall come into effective operation, subject to the creation, as I have said, by provisional Orders in Council of the necessary preliminary machinery of election and so forth, on the appointed day. And as regards that appointed day we have thought—and that is why we make this Amendment in Clause 42—that it was not desirable to make— and the right hon. Gentleman gives us very good reasons for it—the date of the meeting, which must be subsequent to the creation of the Irish Parliament, and as to which it is desirable to allow some time, the date, but we desire the Act to be brought into operation as an Act upon the appointed day. Now what is to be the appointed day? In all these Acts to which I refer, and I might refer to many others, the appointed day is the day named in the Act itself, and in all of them also there is given an opportunity to the Executive, either upon the one side or upon the other, within certain definite terms, to modify or alter the appointed day. Now I understand the substance, apart from minor questions or allegations which are here made, of the allegation as to the possible consequences of taking such a wide margin between the two possible termini within which the appointed day might be fixed, is that the Executive Government is trying under this Act in regard to a matter which I agree is of very great importance, namely, the composition of the Imperial House, not merely of the Irish Parliament, but the Imperial House of Commons—the date on which the representation of Ireland in this House is to be reduced from 103 Members to forty-two Members—the Imperial Executive is trying to take, and may take under the provisions of this Clause, an illegitimate power or an inexpedient power to use the margin in obedience to party exigency in fixing the date. That, I think,

  509
  is the real charge, and I am trying to put it as clearly as I can. I agree that ought to be guarded against. I disclaim any such intention or purpose, or that we had any such purpose in our mind, but I think it is a reasonable apprehension or suspicion which our opponents may have, namely, that if we were entrusted with such power we might make use of it for party purposes, and therefore I am quite prepared to accept any suggestion—I will not commit myself now to the particular words — but any suggestion which commends itself as reasonable to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to restrain or to limit that power, to contract the area within which what I may call the termini is to exist, will receive careful attention. I do rot know what that suggestion may be, bus you must give a little elasticity one way or the other, either in the way of extension or otherwise, but if any suggestion is made here now or hereafter which in the view of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will in point of time guard against the danger which they apprehend, I am perfectly prepared to consider it and, if possible, to accept it.
  Sir EDWARD CARSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether under Clause 46, and having regard to Clause 13, the Government of the day by Order in Council have power to fix any date they like within the margin as the appointed day for the forty-two Members?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think they have.
  Sir E. CARSON: I mean the appointed day for that purpose.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am a little anxious about answering that question. I am not sure that in Clause 13 the words after the appointed day when the Clause was drafted was the date of the first meeting of the Irish Parliament. That question has been left out or will be.
  Sir E. CARSON: That is why I asked.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I gathered that is the reason the right hon. Gentleman asked the question, and therefore I should like, if I may, to have time to consider it, but I hope I have made my meaning clear.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: The point to which I attach very great importance is this: Clause 46 only enables them to make a variety of appointed days in regard to matters which under the Bill are to come into operation on the appointed day. There
  510
  are a great many matters as to which the Act is silent as to when they will come into operation, and presumably they will come into operation on the passing of the Act.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I was coming to that. I make the further concession here—I do think it would be desirable, now that I have given the matter very careful consideration—to fix in this Clause 46 and in accordance with the precedent of the Acts I have already stated, the day as the-day on which the Acts will come into operation.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: Will we have time to discuss that?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Certainly, on Report stage. I am trying to give some concession to the arguments advanced, which I think are well founded. I think that on the whole, after consideration and reading the Debates last night, that Clause 46 would be improved—I am not committing myself to any particular form of words —if it was put in some such way as this: "This Act shall come into operation on the date which we have named—the eighth month after the passing of the Bill—which in this Act is the date referred to as the appointed day. Does the right hon. Gentleman follow me?
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I quite follow, but I do not think it will make it any better.
  The PRIME MINISTER: At any rate, it makes it clearer—to insert in Clause 46-the date for the commencement of the operations of the Act, and to make that date coincide with the appointed day subject to the powers of variation and as to the limit in which the variation is allowed, I agree we should be open to suggestion, but subject to variations in certain limits which are already provided for. I should propose that subject to the suggestions we may receive as to what I may call the contraction of the margin of the area of the termini that we should amend Clause 46 in that way by naming the day as to the date on which the Act should come into operation, and that, with the Amendment I have already suggested as regards the earlier Clauses, I think, would cover the whole ground.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I do not want to put any undue pressure upon the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think he has made this point. Is there to be an Executive before the appointed day, and who

  511
  are to administer the duties which undoubtedly will devolve from the day first the Act passes who is to be the Irish Executive, and where will you get it?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I do not like to commit myself on the spur of the moment. The Act is to be brought into operation on a particular day, but subject to the powers of inception by an Order in Council the Executive would not come into existence until that day.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I am afraid I have not made my point clear. You take powers under Clause 46 even as you propose to amend it to name a definite date with subsequent powers of varying that date for particular purposes, but these particular purposes can only be with regard to matters which the Bill already provides are to come into operation on the appointed day. That gives you power to have one day for one purpose, and another day for another, but there are a whole lot of other matters uncovered by that which therefore primâ facie come into operation on the day the Bill passes. These will require and call for Executive administration. Where are you to get your Executive? If your Executive is not to be appointed by a particular day there must be an interregnum during which the Executive duties must be discharged by somebody. If it is by the Executive how can you have an Executive with no power to whom they are responsible?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The same problem, of course, arises everywhere. It arose in South Africa and Australia—there you had exactly the same problem, how you were to deal with the Executive or provisional Executive before Parliament was brought into existence, and there in both cases it was satisfactorily resolved. I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the Interpretation Act, 1889, Section 37, which provides:—
  "Where an Act passed after the commencement of this Act is not to come into operation immediately on the passing thereof, and confers power to make any appointment, to make, grant, or issue any instrument, that is to say, any Order in Council, order, warrant, scheme, letters patent, rules, regulations, or by-laws, to give notices, to prescribe forms, or to do any other thing for the purposes of the Act, that power may, unless the contrary intention appears, be exercised at any time after the pass-
  512
  ing of the Act, so far as may be necessary or expedient for the purpose of bringing the Act into operation at the date of the commencement thereof, subject to this restriction, that any instrument made under the power shall not, unless the contrary intention appears in the Act, or the contrary is necessary for bringing the Act into operation, come into operation until the Act comes into operation."
  That is a provision which is inserted generally in Acts of Parliament, that they are not to come into operation immediately the Acts are passed, and it seems strictly germane to the present case. Clause 46, carrying out, as previous legislation has done in similar cases, gives greater elasticity than the Section itself, because it enables a particular provision to be brought into operation by an Order in Council.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: We have listened with interest to the quotation which the Prime Minister has just made, and I think the Committee, as a whole, will agree with me when I say that any subject which the Prime Minister is not able to make intelligible must be in its nature utterly unintelligible. Without going into these details of legal interpretation, I ask the Committee to consider the position in which we are placed by the admissions which the Prime Minister has just made. Last night the Attorney-General dealt with precisely the same subject, and he treated all our objections as utterly trivial.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: No.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I beg the Attorney-General's pardon, but he stated that there was not the smallest difficulty in getting over every one of our objections by the Act as it stood. What does the Prime Minister do? The first thing he does is to say that what my right hon. Friend said is perfectly ridiculous, and it must be put right by an Amendment.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Not "ridiculous."
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Well, I will leave out "ridiculous," but, at any rate, the right hon. Gentleman said it was so bad that it would be necessary to put it right by an Amendment. I think that is admitted. What follows? By the mere accident that we happened to have time for the discussion of this particular point we are able to show that it is unworkable. I put it to any Member of this Committee, is it not

  513
  credible that if we had had a proper discussion it would have been found that from beginning to end of this Bill there are precisely the same sort of things which must be put right before the Bill will work? Let the Committee realise what the position is in which we stand, owing to the way this Bill is being carried through. The moment this measure leaves the House on the Third Beading not one line can be altered for two years, and there is no one who has followed this measure Clause by Clause who does not realise how unworkable it is all through. My right hon. Friend pointed out that the whole question is absolutely confused for the further reason that there is no power by Order in Council to deal with Those Clauses of the Bill which by legal interpretation become law the moment the Act is passed. There are many such instances, and what does the Prime Minister say in regard to them. He suggests some Amendment which he is going to put in on Report. What he has suggested is very confused, and my legal friends inform me that they do not think what has been suggested will make matters a bit better. What it all amounts to is that this proposal is to be altered by the mere accident that the Prime Minister happened to be here at the time the matter was discussed. If the right hon. Gentleman had not been here, not a word would have been altered, and the Bill would have gone through precisely as it stands. I ask the Prime Minister to realise where we stand by the statement which he himself has made. His intention is to give power to bring any of the provisions into operation at any time by an Order in Council, and apparently the intention is to prepare for the election of the Irish Parliament.
  How is it to be done? Obviously you cannot transfer any of the services until there is an Executive in existence, because everything must be done by them. You cannot set up a Treasury or an Exchequer Board, or anything else, without an Executive. What follows? Either you cannot use these subordinate appointed days, or you must use them under the authority of an Executive set up by this Government without any Parliamentary responsibility and without any knowledge that it will represent that Parliament. It seems to me that a more glaring case of the absurdity of carrying through a great constitutional change like this under the conditions under which it is now being discussed, was never brought before the House. I cannot follow these legal ques-
  514
  tions, but it seems to me clear that there was confusion, in fact the Prime Minister admits it, because he says they are going to try and deal with it. That is because he happened to be here, and it would not have been dealt with otherwise. It must be equally clear that the same sort of confusion runs from beginning to end of this Bill. I do not want to give illustrations, but can anyone imagine anything more confusing than the case in which the Attorney-General was looking for a provision which the Postmaster-General said was in the Bill, but he could not find it. From beginning to end the same thing has occurred. Whenever we have had adequate time to discuss any part of this Bill the Government have bad to make Amendments, and yet 99–100ths of this measure has gone through without the smallest Amendment. There is another aspect of this question, and it is most important. I do not feel competent to follow the right hon. Gentleman in his legal arguments, but the Prime Minister has stated that there is no thought of party advantage in regard to the time when this Act is to come into force, and he suggests to us that we should make a proposal. Obviously, we cannot do that without careful consideration. I wish to say now that so far as I am concerned the only proposal to which we would attach any value, and the only proposal which in my opinion the Government are bound in common decency to carry out is that in the position in which they stand as a Government this Bill should not become law until after a General Election, and until the people of this country have had an opportunity of expressing their opinion.
  I say that from the Government's own point of view, because I see no reason why the Government should not take that course. The only reason I can imagine, and I believe it is a true one, is that directly or indirectly the right hon. Gentleman and his Government have made a bargain with hon. Members below the Gangway that they will pass this Bill into law. There is no other explanation of it. Why should the Government not postpone it? If they have the support of the majority of the people of this country, they will lose nothing by the course I have suggested. But if they have not the support of a majority of the people and if they are not sure that they have it, do they really think that they are entitled to carry a great constitutional change like this and face the inevitable result of it, namely,

  515
  the coercion of Ulster without the certainty that they have the support of the majority of the people of this country. Do they claim that they have the right to do that? I do not think they make that claim. I do not think the Prime Minister will say that he is justified in carrying this Bill into law unless he is sure that the people of this country are behind him. The reason I objected to this fourteen months' delay was it seemed to me it was an indication that the Government were at least convinced in regard to the course suggested that they should try and carry the Bill into law and obtain the Royal Assent. On that I wish to say nothing now, but we shall have a good deal to say upon it before this Bill comes to its final stage. The right hon. Gentleman suggested they should try to obtain the Royal Assent, and that they should have an interval before the Bill is actually put into operation, and should leave it to the Government which follows them to reverse what they have done. It seems to me that if that is the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, I can imagine nothing more wicked than such an argument would be. If the Government are sure that they have the country behind them, there is no difficulty in getting its approval, but if they are not sure, and contemplate the possibility of not obtaining the support of the country before the Act comes into operation, what do they mean to do? They mean to bring this Bill into law, and I am sure the Chief Secretary will agree with me when I say that it is hardly possible to believe that this Bill can come into operation in Ireland without disturbances in the North of Ireland, which no one would deplore more than I should. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh !"] It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen who know nothing about it to sneer. I do know something about it, and so does the Chief Secretary, and it is inconceivable to me that this can happen without disorder. If the Government take the course I have suggested their position is greatly strengthened. Suppose they lose the election; then we are bound to reverse what they have done, and that after you have excited to an extent which no one can imagine the hopes of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. You would deliberately make certain that you would have disorder when the Act was passed into law, and equally disorder when there was any attempt, made to reverse it. I say that if that is in the mind of the Government, any-
  516
  thing more discreditable or more unlike proper statesmanship has never been attempted by any Minister of the Crown.
  Mr. CASSEL: I wish to intervene again for a few moments, because some of these points were raised yesterday which the Prime Minister has dealt with to-day. The Prime Minister has somewhat disarmed opposition by the way in which he has dealt with some criticisms with reference to points of detail. If the right hon. Gentleman had not met those detailed points in that way I should have felt inclined to complain that matters of such vital importance under this Bill should have been left in this state of uncertainty and chaos at this moment. The right hon. Gentleman said the question of the appointed day was one of the most important factors in the Bill, but, notwithstanding that statement, the whole matter is left in absolute uncertainty and doubt. He proposes to set up an Executive, a Parliament and a judiciary in Ireland, but he does not say when these various portions of the new Constitution are to come into existence. I asked yesterday for an explanation of the extension of this period. Would any right hon. Gentleman tell us why the period is now being extended from twelve months, as originally proposed, to fifteen months? Under the Bill, as it stood originally, there would, assuming the Act was passed in March next, have been six months until September; and, in addition, They could, by Order in Council, have postponed it for another six months, which would have meant twelve months altogether. They now propose to extend the time to fifteen months. I asked twice yesterday why they had extended the period from twelve to fifteen months. I wonder whether any right hon. Gentlemen opposite will deign to give an explanation. It seems to me to be a point which calls for explanation. If the additional three months are necessary, we ought to have an explanation, and, if they are not necessary, then we ought not to be called upon to make this Amendment, which still further extends the time during which the Cabinet will have it in their power to create, or not to create, these various portions of the Irish Constitution as it suits their convenience. The Prime Minister said he would be prepared to leave out the words "passing of this Act" in Clause 27. That, in my judgment, would not really remedy matters in the least. The interpretation, in my view, would still be the same, unless you put in some Amendment saying the whole Act

  517
  was to commence from a new date. Of course, if we are to have that, it is extremely difficult to discuss this Amendment until we know what the other Amendment is going to be.
  Let me again call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the importance of some Amendment in connection with Clause 27. The judges are only removable under that Clause, on presentation of an Address from the two Houses of the Irish Parliament. It becomes very important that new power of removing the judges should not come into force until the date the Irish Parliament is actually in existence and capable of meeting. The position is really very much worse than we at first supposed, because, not only do you have a period of fifteen months before the appointed day arrives, but you have another period, when Parliament meets for the first time, which may be twelve months from that day, so that altogether you have really got twenty-seven months. I see the right hon. Gentleman does not agree with me. I do not know whether I have made the point clear, but if I had I think he would agree. The final period at which this Irish Parliament must meet for the first time is twenty-seven months, more than two years, from the passing of the Act. It need not meet under the Bill as ii- stands for more than two years after the passing of the Act. Therefore the 103 Trish Members need not vacate their seats in this House under Clause 42, Subsection (2), if the Government so wish, for a period of two years and three months. I understand some Amendment is going to be accepted, but before that Amendment is made I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind the distinction between the time when there is a Parliament and the first meeting of the Parliament, because at present there are two contradictory periods given in the Bill when the Irish Members are to vacate their seats. Clause 13 says "on the appointed day," which is the time when there is an Irish Parliament.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: After.
  Mr. CASSEL: "After" must be the day immediately following. The right lion. Gentleman would not contend it might be a hundred years, or even a year after. There will, therefore, be only forty-two Irish Members in this House on the day after the appointed day. In Clause 42, Sub-section (2), there is an exact contradictory provision. Under that Clause the 103 Members are to vacate
  518
  their seats not on the day immediately following the appointed day, but on an entirely different day, which may be a year later; that is to say, the day of the first meeting of the Irish Parliament. When right hon. Gentlemen opposite are amending the Bill, I hope they will also bear that contradiction in mind. We have had the question of the date on which the Transferred Sum is to be determined raised, and I think everybody agrees that under the Bill it is the date of the passing of the Act. Could there be anything more ridiculous than to fix positively on one day and to begin to pay as from another day? There may be an intervening period between the passing of the Act and the appointed day, during which the Imperial Executive still continues to carry on the services in Ireland. Surely the reasonable date to fix for ascertaining the Transferred Sum is not the date of the passing of the Act, but the date when the Irish services pass from the Imperial officers to the Irish officers. Otherwise you may have the Transferred Sum diminished or increased as compared with the cost of the services during a period for which the Irish Administration is not responsible. I will take an extreme case in order to make my point clear. Supposing the period is fifteen months, and supposing during that period the cost of the Irish services is doubled. Could anything more ridiculous be imagined than that although the cost of the Irish services has been doubled during that period, you should pay as the Transferred Sum, not a sum representing the cost when the services were taken over, but half that sum, the sum at the time of the passing of the Act.
  I submit when the right hon. Gentleman is considering these Amendments that is a point he ought to bear in mind. It appears to me quite absurd to fix any sum other than the sum which is the actual cost at the time when the services are taken over, and the date as from which it should be payable is the date the Irish services are taken over by the Irish Executive from the Imperial Executive. Clause 4 provides that Members of the Irish Ministry must become Members of the Irish Parliament within six months. Whatever period you put in there, you must not make the period for creating the Irish Parliament longer, because, if you do, you are led to a ridiculous result, and in order to get out of the difficulty you must change your Ministers. It would mean that after keeping your Ministers for five

  519
  months you would have to get new Ministers in order to comply with the provisions of the Bill, which it seems to me would not be treating Parliament fairly. I do not think that could have been the intention at the time the Bill was framed. Speaking generally with regard to these Amendments, I submit that if we are to have large Amendments upon what the Prime Minister himself declared to be the most important points in the Bill, namely, the dates its various parts are to come into operation, some further opportunity for discussion really ought to be given to us. We have extricated the Government from a hopeless bog in which they were floundering, and the least we can ask from them is that they should give us the opportunity of considering the methods by which they choose to put themselves right.
  Sir G. PARKER: There is one thing which has emerged from the Prime Minister's speech of which I have no doubt the Committee has taken full note. There will be in Ireland an Executive appointed —we assume by the Lord Lieutenant— which will have authority in Ireland until the new Parliament is elected. The Prime Minister said that condition of things had a precedent, and we have heard of the cases of Australia and the new Union of South Africa. I do not think the Prime Minister's reference was at all a satisfactory one from the standpoint of good argument or from the standpoint of this Bill. There is no parallel between the two conditions of affairs. You had in Australia an Executive doing the work of administration in every individual State, whilst there was being arranged the larger administration which would take over purely federal affairs. You had exactly the same thing in South Africa. A responsible Government and Executive existed in every one of those provinces, and there was no body of men performing the duties of a Government and of Executive officers who had not been properly elected and who were not properly supported by a Minister in Parliament for that purpose. Here you have an Executive nominated. It would be entirely different from any Executive ever before established in the history of our Empire. I hope I have the attention of the Attorney-General, because these points are not trivial. The Prime Minister has put this forward as a precedent for this Bill. I say the Prime Minister was not justified in making a reference of that kind. It is thoroughly unsound in every particular, as
  520
  everybody who knows the constitutional history of our Empire knows full well. I take exception to it, because it is the kind of thing that goes down in this House. The Prime Minister in his august position makes a statement of that sort, and hon. Members on that side of the House swallow it as though it were gospel. I repudiate the Prime Minister's statement as not having any foundation in fact. His references and precedents are wholly without constitutional authority. I am trying to direct the attention of the Committee to this fact, that you would have an Executive set up in Ireland the like of which has never yet been set up by the Crown in any portion of the King's Dominions. You would have an Executive which will not have the authority of Parliament behind it.
  Mr. PRINGLE: What about the Transvaal?
  Sir G. PARKER: It did not happen in the case of the Union of South Africa at all.
  Mr. PRINGLE: I am not referring to the Union. I am referring to the grant of self-government to South Africa.
  Sir G. PARKER: The Prime Minister referred to the Union of South Africa and to the Commonwealth of Australia, and if the House believes that this Government is offering in this Home Rule Bill exactly the same kind of Constitution as exists in the case of South Africa or the Commonwealth of Australia, I can only say I think it is mistaken. I am trying to point out that, under the Bill, you are going to have an Executive nominated by the Crown, who may carry on the government of Ireland until the appointed day when the Parliament is established, and you may have an Executive in Ireland carrying on the administrative work without the authority of Parliament—at any rate until the Parliament is set up—it may be for fifteen months or for an even longer period. I want the Committee to realise what that means. You abolish the power of this Imperial Parliament, which corresponds to the State Parliaments in Australia and in the Union of South Africa; you abolish the original Parliament which carries on the administration in Ireland, and that you did not do in the case of South Africa or of the Commonwealth of Australia, and you set up an Executive which has no authority whatever. If the Executive of this House were to have

  521
  authority in Ireland until the new Parliament is set up, you would have something analogous to the conditions which exist in our Overseas Dominions. But the power of this Executive disappears as soon as this Act is passed. You have given a temporary and improvised Executive which will carry on the work of administration. When the Parliament is set up presumably the members of the Executive will be the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond), the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), and the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), and other Gentlemen who represent the Nationalist policy in Ireland. Then having established their position as an Executive, carrying out the administration in Ireland, a Parliament is set up and they disappear, for we assume that, as soon as an election occurs, they Just go to the country and get their authority and then come on to the Executive. Just imagine an Executive of that kind with a democratic authority behind it. One can imagine what kind of pandering there will be to the constituencies, and what kind of use will be made of the Administration in Ireland in order to secure power in the new permanent Executive. I want the position to be brought home to every Member of this House. It is one of singular difficulty and danger, and that danger which we have foreseen is being justified step by step and day by day. You have got an anomalous position in a great democratic community which has no authority except the authority of the Government that can carry through this Bill with the help of the cohorts behind it.
  6.0 P.M.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: I am astonished that no one on the Government Bench has attempted to reply to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. My right hon. Friend raised a point, most important in its possible consequences, namely, whether this Act will come into operation before the people have had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it. What is all this legal talk about the appointed day after the passing of this Act? Anyone who has really studied the question knows that the appointed day will be a day on which there will be a violent collision between the Irish Executive and a large section of the population of Ireland. Some of us have been taunted as if we gloried in that anticipation. I abhor and repudiate it. I will tell the Committee quite frankly why it is that this prospect strikes me, not only with deep anxiety, but with something
  522
  approaching dread. It is not merely that every honest citizen shrinks from the idea of bloodshed. I can quite see that if the collision takes place, however much my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) and others who act with him may restrain, or attempt to restrain, the course of events, they will in practice develop into something like religious war, and it will mean the stirring up of ancient animosities against the faith which I hold, not only in this country, but throughout the Empire. Therefore, from both points of view I dread the prospect. It is certain to come if the Government persevere in their present course. I will call as a witness the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture. In the Debate on the Second Reading he told us, that there would be sanguinary riots if this Bill is put through. What does that mean? It means there will be volley firing in crowded streets: perhaps Cavalry charges, and every day the papers will be full of casualty lists, and photographers who shrink from reproducing no scenes of horror will supply daily dishes for the public appetite. And then there will be savage reprisals. I know that my right hon. Friend will exercise all the restraint he can; but I doubt if he will always succeed. A Commander cannot always control the Bashi Bazouks who follow his flag. I do not know that there are worse elements in the population of Belfast than elsewhere; but that there are evil elements is certain and I foresee that by way of reprisal there will be outrages on innocent people, and probably the sacking of churches with every circumstance of profanity and sacrilege. Now can these things be averted. They will not be averted by the quips and cranks and the bells and motley of the Chief Secretary. Humouristic arts will fail here; but the catastrophe may be averted if the Government will face the position. The best way would be to drop the Bill but if this cannot be done, the Government might at least cut down the Eastern counties of Ulster. This would not disarm the opposition of English Unionists who object to Home Rule anywhere in the United Kingdom but it would prevent this particular disaster. But again if the Government will not do this they might at least do something to mitigate the danger, so clearly foreseen, if they would make it certain that there will be a General Election, not only before the passing of the Act, but before its coming into operation. Then the difficul-

  523
  ties of the position would be mitigated. But there are objections to that, because, to my mind, the situation is not clear. If there were a clear issue, and if the Government made it clear, then there would be a modification of a great part of the danger. Of course, it would have to be not merely before the appointed day, but before the passing of the Act. The best way would be that there should be a Referendum. I am not saying that this would necessarily be effective. A year ago I should have said there was not one man out of ten in the Conservative party in Great Britain (outside Liverpool and Glasgow) who would not have been willing to abide by the result of a Referendum on Home Rule. A year has passed, passion has been excited by the course of the Government and I will not put it as high now. Still the Referendum would have great advantages. By it the Government could put themselves in the right. Now we say that they are trying to carry their Bill by fraud; but we should not be able to say it then. IE they won they would have the moral authority of the people behind them, where as if they lost, they would have a honourable retreat from a desperate and perhaps fatal position. I know that a Member who speaks much and takes many points on a great Bill like this is liable to the charge that he is speaking more from the view of the party game and this charge is not always deserved; but I can assure any Member who is willing to believe me that I am in dead earnest now. I see an immediate future, if the Government go on in their present course, of great and, perhaps, incalculable disaster, and I trust that whatever means they may take, whether they win or lose in the end, this particular catastrophe at any rate will be averted.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: It is rather difficult to follow my hon. Friend who has just sat down, who has made a most eloquent and able speech. He said he did not make that speech for party purposes. Of course it is very difficult, when you are dealing with this Bill, not to deal with it to a certain extent from the point of view of party, but I should like to ask in all sincerity one or two questions of the Attorney-General. To my mind the position in regard to this Bill since the speech of the Prime Minister this afternoon has become an extraordinarily complicated one. We on this side of the Committee are not treated with fairness in respect to the
  524
  Amendments that are put on the Paper by the Government. For instance, the other day the Order Paper contained three Amendments to this Sub-section. One of the Amendments cut out the Sub-section, the second turned an Order in Council into an Irish Transfer Order in Council, and the third actually cut out the transitory provisions of this Sub-section. Anybody taking up the Order Paper two days ago did not in the least know which of these Amendments the Government proposed to move. Not only are the Amendments on the Paper utterly at variance one with another, but the Amendments render the provisions of the Bill entirely inconsistent and chaotic. Under the original proposals of the Government, before they put down the Amendment that cuts out the Subsection, the longest period for which an Order in Council could operate in respect of the appointed day was twelve months, namely, between one March and the next March, but under the new scheme this period has been lengthened to fourteen months, and during those fourteen months, so far as I can see, the Bill will be brought, into operation piecemeal. I do not think there is any doubt about this. If you look at Clause 46 you see that different appointed days may be set up for the different provision of the Bill. I should like to ask the learned Attorney-General whether the Orders in Council fixing the appointed days for the different provisions of the Bill will be laid before the Parliament of the United Kingdom? Before the last Government Amendments were put down they would have been laid before the Parliament of the United Kingdom prior to coming into operation, but, apparently, the new Amendments the Government have put down strike out that very important safeguard.
  If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Clauses 44 and 45, he will see that the words the Government have put down turn the words "Orders in Council" into "Irish Transfer Orders in Council," and, so far as I can see, it is only these Irish Transfer Orders in Council that have to be laid before the Imperial Parliament. Apparently, under Clause 46, the Order in Council, which deals with the various appointed days which are to be set up, will escape this very valuable restriction and conic into operation immediately. I should like to know, when the right hon. Gentleman replies, if he does me the honour of answering these questions, why the Government

  525
  have put down these Amendments practically withdrawing that very valuable restriction? I should also like to ask whether this series of Orders in Council is going to be brought into operation on the advice of the Irish or the Imperial Executive? If they are going to be brought into operation on the advice of the Imperial Executive they will, at any rate, be some sort of safeguard that an Order in Council will not be brought into operation merely to gerrymander the provisions of the Bill from a purely partisan point of view. If, on the other hand, they are to be brought into operation on the advice of the Irish Executive, that Executive can go merrily on without setting up a Parliament, or they might get the meeting of the Irish Parliament set up much earlier than would otherwise be the case. Another point on which I should like to ask for an explanation is this: Under Clause 46 different days may be set up for the different purposes and different provisions of the Bill. What powers will this give to the Irish Government t Will it enable them to have different appointed days for different parts of Ireland — that is to say, do the Government contemplate a serious condition of affairs arising in the North of Ireland, and do they want to give the Irish Government power to have different appointed days for bringing the Act into force in different parts of Ireland? Under the wording of the Bill there is nothing to prevent the Irish Government from doing this if they want to. I should very much like the right hon. Gentleman to explain that matter.
  I believe—I may be quite wrong—that the real intention of the Government in putting down these Amendments is to hasten the meeting of the Irish Parliament, and to get it established before an election takes place and Home Rule is possibly repudiated by the people of this country. Under the Government's original proposals, and taking the Parliament Act into account, as one necessarily must do, the Irish Parliament would have met in September, 1915. Under the new proposals there is to be no date for the meeting of the Irish Parliament. Supposing that under the Parliament Act this Bill passes in May, 1914, the appointed day can, by Order in Council, be fixed for June, 1914, and the Irish Parliament could meet in the same month. That is rather interesting, for this reason: Before the Bill was amended by the Government during the last few days the Irish Parliament was
  526
  to meet in September, 1915. Now it will be able to meet in June, 1914, or fifteen months earlier. Under the Parliament Act the Government will have to go to the country not later than November, 1915. I understand that under the Parliament Act the quinquennial period will in practice be four years, so that probably, if they go on normally to the end of their tenure of office, they will go to the country at the end of 1914. The Irish Parliament can meet in June, 1914, so that the whole machinery and personnel of the Irish Parliament will already have been set up, and it will have been able to sit for about six months and make laws before the present Government goes to the country. What led the Government to do this? I cannot help thinking that they know the people of this country are against their scheme, but they know that once a Parliament has been set up in Ireland it would be extraordinarily difficult to reverse a system which has been set up. These Amendments are merely a dodge to make it almost impossible for this Imperial Parliament to rescind the Home Rule Act when it becomes law, although at a General Election the electorate may have returned a different Government, pledged to do all they can to abolish the Home Rule Pill altogether.
  I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what is to be the exact position of the Irish services during the interregnum between the passing of the Act and the appointed day? It is quite clear, if the right hon. Gentleman will look at Clause 2 and Clause 4, that Irish services are matters on which the Irish Parliament will have power to make laws. Therefore, there will either be no Irish services until the Parliament in Ireland is set up, or the Irish services will come into existence as soon as the Executive is set up, which may be a considerable time before the Irish Parliament comes into existence. In the latter case, as an Irish Minister can hold a portfolio for six months before he becomes a Member of the Irish Parliament, he could quite easily be the head of an Irish Department for six months, exercising the prerogatives, the privileges and the patronage of a big Department, without any responsibility whatsoever to the Irish Parliament. As a matter of fact, I do not see how under the Bill Irish services are even to come into existence before the Irish Parliament is set up. I will quote from Clause 4 which says:—
  "The powers so delegated"—

  527
  that is to say, delegated by the Lord Lieutenant—
  "shall be exercised through such Irish Departments as may be established by Irish Act,"
  In spite of this the right hon. Gentleman said last night:—
  "Having got your Executive, you can set up the various Departments which it is intended to have, at any rate, until Parliament is in active legislative operation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 10th December. 1912. col. 393.]
  Where does he get that from? It seems to me quite clear that under the Bill it is an Act of the Irish Parliament which is to set up Irish services.
  Mr. PRINGLE: No. Read on.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Perhaps the right hon Gentleman will deal with that point.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: If the hon. Member will read on he will see. The hon. Member stopped at the bottom of page 3. The words run on to page 4, and say—
  "or, subject thereto, by the Lord Lieutenant, and the Lord Lieutenant may appoint officers to administer those Departments, and those officers shall hold office during the pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant."
  Sir E. CARSO: Docs the right hon. Gentleman say that without an Act the Lord Lieutenant himself may set up a Department?
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: Yes.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: That must surely be subject to an Act of the Irish Parliament.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: Yes.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: If it is subject to an Act of the Irish Parliament, the Lord Lieutenant will not be able to set it up without an Act of the Irish Parliament. I do not understand it at all, and I should very much like to have it explained. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman another question. Under Clause 46 different appointed days may be set up for different purposes and provisions of the Act. Will this allow of different services being transferred to the Irish Parliament at different dates? I do not see that there is anything in the Clause to prevent it. For instance, can the appointed day with regard to primary
  528
  education be a different appointed day from that of the transfer of higher education to the Irish Parliament? Can the appointed days for agriculture, public works, or the Congested Districts Board being handed over all be different, and can those days be entirely different from the appointed day for handing over the judiciary? And if they can—and I do not see that there is anything to prevent it— the complication and confusion which will arise on the passage of this Bill will be perfectly inextricable. On the other hand, if the days are to be the same, I do not see why the Government should go out of their way to put a provision into the Bill enabling an Order in Council to vary the order of the various dates. Again, I should like to ask on what basis are the payments to be made to the Irish Exchequer for any transferred service? Under Clause 14 it would appear that certain payments are to be made as soon as the Irish Executive is set up. These payments, I take it, are measured by the cost of the Irish services at a given fixed date. I do not think there is any reason to doubt that, looking at the Bill, but it does not say that the cost shall be estimated for the period of the year when the transfer takes place. For instance, a full year's payment for all services might be made under the Bill although a fraction merely of the services have been transferred perhaps a month before the end of the financial year. And in regard to the subsidy of £500,000, has the payment of the subsidy any connection with the appointed day? Must it be paid entire to the Irish Exchequer or is a fraction only, corresponding to the portion of the year which has still to run, to be paid over? For instance, if the appointed day for setting up the Irish Treasury happens to be a month before the end of the financial year, will the Imperial Parliament still be obliged to hand over the whole of the £500,000 which covers the whole of the financial year?
  My final point is that under Clause 9. Sub-section (3), the Irish Parliament may alter the electoral qualification of the Irish House of Commons three years after the passing of the Act. The provision, fixed as taking effect three years after the passing of the Act, cannot, I presume, be modified by any Order in Council altering the appointed day. I think that is pretty certain. How will this apply in the case of this Clause? Under the Bill the Irish Parliament need not, although I believe it will, meet for twenty-seven months after

  529
  the passing of this Act, and after another nine months it may apparently proceed to alter the whole of the franchise, the whole of the election laws, and the whole basis of the Irish House of Commons. I believe that is a correct interpretation of this Clause, and, if so, it seems to me that it is a very unsound provision that after nine months the Irish House of Commons should be able to alter the whole basis on which it rests. The Attorney-General last night referred to the Education Act of 1902, but I do not think that he quite appreciates the objection which the Opposition has to the provisions which he has put in enabling an Order in Council to select different appointed days. The Attorney - General said, quite rightly, that where you transfer one set of institutions from one body to another, you must necessarily take power for bringing the various parts of the Act into operation at various times, but the real object of the Opposition, I think, to these Amendments, is that tremendous conflict will arise between the powers you are giving under this Clause and the actual terms of the Bill. The 1902 Education Act has absolutely no reference to any meeting of Parliament, or any appointed day, or any such term as "the passing of the Act," and the general power was given by the Order in Council merely to bring the provisions of the Act into force within a certain definite period. But in the present case it is intended by the Order in Council either to override the express provisions of the Bill or to give an entirely different construction to the Bill from that which Members of the Committee had in their minds a few days ago before the Amendments were put on the Paper. Therefore, I feel that the right hon. Gentleman has not quite met the criticisms of the Opposition in this respect. If I have not asked too many questions, I shall be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman could answer the points I have put to him, and I feel sure that if he cannot answer them satisfactorily he will do his best, to put Amendments in the Bill to inset the case.
  Mr. AMERY: I only rise to supplement the points made by my hon. Friend (Sir G. Parker) in answer to the Prime Minister. My hon. Friend pointed out that the appointment of an Executive in Australia and the South African Union before the election of the new Parliament naturally arose out of the fact that you had an Executive already in existence in each Province or State, and, in fact, the men who
  530
  composed the new Executive were those who were already in Executive power in the different component Parliaments, and therefore the Prime Minister's parallel did not apply. While he was speaking an hon. Member opposite interjected a suggestion to the effect that his argument would not cover the case of the Transvaal. The interesting thing is that in the case of the Transvaal these very considerations caused the appointment of a new Executive Government to be postponed till after the election. I may speak with some knowledge on that point, as I was present at the elections of the Orange River Colony, which were conducted by the Crown Colony Governor under the control of the Crown Colony Colonial Secretary. After the results of the election were known on the following day, Sir Hamilton Adams called Mr. Fisher, the leader of the victorious party, and then made arrangements for the creation of the Government. The case of the Transvaal is more interesting still, because it was a matter of common knowledge that if Lord Selborne had appointed an Executive before the elections a compromise Government might have had to be formed. As a matter of fact, as the elections turned out, Sir Richard Solomon was defeated, and an entirely new situation arose; and Lord Selborne, rightly and properly, called General Botha. We may contemplate the possibility of the same sort of thing happening in Ireland. Hon. Members opposite, have been continually assuring us that one result of Home Bule will be an entirely different party division, and that a new-type of man will come to the front—a less. extreme type and a better type, according to their statements. Ought they not, then, to give that new type the best opportunity, whereas what they propose to do is, by the exercise of their own power, to-nominate their political allies, and to stereotype from the outset that very division which they declare is so undesirable, and stereotype it in a fashion which, by our knowledge of Ireland, may be disadvantageous. As we know in many cases in Ireland an independent section does not get very great consideration at election times. Are they likely to get greater consideration, if the Executive Government of Ireland is in the hands of Nationalist Members? It seems to me that while we on this side of the House are determined that this measure shall not-pass into law, yet on the assumption that it might pass, arguing as we must argue in Committee, we can, at any rate, claim;

  531
  that the inception of the new Government shall be in a form in which you are likely to get the best results, and not in a form which is merely consonant with the party exigencies of hon. Members opposite.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I do not wish really to inflict a third speech upon the Committee on the subject of this Amendment, and in view of the Prime Minister's speech to-day, it really, becomes unnecessary for me to add very much to what has already been said. But at the same time, I do not want to appear discourteous to the hon. Member (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) in his series of questions to me, and I would answer him that the Prime Minister's speech in substance dealt with all the various points that we have raised. I do not say that he took each one in detail, but the subjects generally were dealt with by the Prime Minister, and certainly if the hon. Member asks me— and I think his speech was worthy of my making this promise to him—I will take into account the various criticisms which he has directed to the Bill. Some of the points he raised have already been raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Cassel) in the criticisms which he offered yesterday, and also to-day, upon the various Clauses of the Bill and I think these are met by what the Prime Minister has said. Some subjects that he has raised again to-day were discussed yesterday and were touched upon by the Prime Minister and they are to form the subject of Amendments which the Prime Minister has said he. will put down. Therefore I do not think I can usefully take up time in travelling through all the various criticisms which we have heard to-day. I only desire to add that although the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bonar Law) thought it was some reproach that during the discussion of the Bill we have accepted some suggestions which have fallen from the Opposition and have embodied them in Amendments, I should have thought it was rather a matter of commendation in a Government than one of reproach, that when we have heard criticisms which are worthy of attention, and which we thought really indicated points of substance which had not been properly dealt with in the Bill we have not hesitated, as I think no Government should hesitate, to take those criticisms into account whether they come from one's own side or from the Opposition. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Cassel) at an earlier date detected some flaw in
  532
  one of the Clauses. I did not hesitate, and I should not hesitate again, to accept a criticism when I saw it was well founded, and introduce an Amendment which dealt with it.
  I certainly do not want now to go further into all the various matters, but I do not desire that any speech made on behalf of the Government should close without my giving an emphatic contradiction to what was suggested, though I do not think the Leader of the Opposition did more than suggest it, that the object of the alteration we are making in Clauses 42 and 4H was to put the Unionist party in some difficulty by passing the Act first, and then in case the election went against the Government the Unionist party would be unable to repeal the Bill. Nor was that intention present to the Government's mind, and every consideration will show that there is no substance in the suggestion that in the alteration we are making as to the time we are making any important alteration. I am not now dealing at all with the points of criticism raised as to the appointed day and the other dates which are given in various Clauses of the Bill. What I am referring to is the statement which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made. He did not say it was the object, but he said if it was the intention of the Government to put the Unionist party in a difficulty by this means, it was a very wicked thing. All I desire to say is that there never has been such an intention on the part of the Government. The only object we have in proposing the Amendment which has given rise to this general discussion which was promised was that we could, as we thought, frame the Bill in such a way as to make the administration of Ireland more convenient under the Bill than by fixing the date, as we had already done, as the first Tuesday in September, 1913. The only effect of what we have done is that we have extended the possible period by two months. There was a suggestion made by the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. T). Locker - Lampson) that the maximum would be three months. The Prime Minister indicated to-day that, in order to meet any notion of that kind that might be in any hon. Gentleman's mind, we would accept any reasonable suggestion that could be made as to fixing the important dates with respect to the meeting of the Irish Parliament and the reduction of the representatives from Ireland in this Parliament from 103 to forty-two. That is the

  533
  Government view as expressed by the Prime Minister, and when once that has been stated it meets any possible doubt as to the intention we have in introducing these Amendments, because it gets rid of the suggestions made as to the intention we have in omitting this Sub-section of Clause 42.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer two points which have not been touched upon in the Debate up till now. Would it be possible to have different appointed days for different parts of Ireland, and will the Order in Council under Clause 46 be submitted to the Imperial Parliament before it comes into operation?
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The Order in Council under Clause 46 is an Order with respect to administration. It is not usual to submit such Orders in Council to Parliament. There has never been a question as to submitting that Order in Council to Parliament. Certainly that kind of Order in Council, which is quite well known, is not as a rule submitted to Parliament. The Order in Council to which the hon. Gentleman was referring was one, under Clause 45, as to the transitory provisions. That Order in Council should be submitted to Parliament and lie on the Table for forty days. That
  is quite the usual form, and there is nothing new in that in it. The other question which the hon. Gentleman put to me was as to whether or not there would be power to make different appointed days. Of course there is, as the Prime Minister has pointed out.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I mean different appointed days for different parts of Ireland.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: No, but there will be for different parts of the Act. What is intended is, I think, made quite clear by Clause 46, and there is no suggestion of amending the part, which says—
  "as may be fixed by Order of His Majesty in Council either generally or with reference to any particular provision of this Act, and different days may be appointed for different purposes and different provisions of this Act."
  Therefore, while there may be different periods for meeting different provisions under the Act, there will not be different periods for different parts of Ireland.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 306.

  Division No. 412.]

  AYES.

  [6.37 p.m.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Chambers, James

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Balcarres, Lord

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  croft, H. P.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Barnston, Harry

  Dalzicl, D. (Brixton)

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B, (Glouc, E.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Falle, B. G.

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fell, Arthur

  Home, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Bird, A.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Blair, Reginald

  Gardner, Ernest

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Bull, Sir William James

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Butcher, John George

  Greene, W. R.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Gretton, John

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bcotle)

  Carilie, Sir Edward Hildred

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Cator, John

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Cautley, H. S.

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Cave, George

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Remnant, Sir James Farquharson

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Malcolm, Ian

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Stanier, Beville

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Winterton, Earl

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Swift, Rigby

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Cassel and Mr. G. Locker-Lampson

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Adamson, William

  De Forest, Baron

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Delany, William

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hinds, John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hodge, John

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Doris, William

  Hogge, James Myles

  Arnold, Sydney

  Duffy, William J.

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Barnes, George N.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Barton, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Falconer, James

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo).

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Netts, Rushcliffe)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  French, Peter

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Bethell, Sir John Henry

  Field, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Boland, John Pius

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Joyce, Michael

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Keating, Matthew

  Bowerman, C. W.

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Gill, A. H.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Brace, William

  Ginned, L.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Brady, P. J.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  King, J.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Glanville, H. J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Brunner, J. F. L.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Goldstone, Frank

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Leach, Charles

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Hackett, J.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Lundon, T.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Hancock, John George

  Lynch, A. A.

  Chapple, Dr William Allen

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Clancy, John J.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Clough, William

  Hardle, J. Keir

  McGhee, Richard

  Clynes, John R.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  M'Kean, John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Cotton, William Francis

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Crooks, William

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Manfield, Harry

  Cullinan, John

  Hayward, Evan

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  536

  537

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Meagher, Michael

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Sutton, John E.

  Median, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Molloy, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Thomas, James Henry

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Morrell, Philip

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Muldoon, John

  Reddy, M.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Munro, R.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Richards, Thomas

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Waring, Walter

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Webb, H.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Rowlands, James

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Donncll, Thomas

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  O'Dowd, John

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Whyte, Alexander F.

  Ogden, Fred

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Wiles, Thomas

  O'Grady, James

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  William, John (Glamorgan)

  O'Malley, William

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  O'Shee, James John

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Sheehy, David

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Winfrey, Richard

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Shortt, Edward

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman, H. M.

  Snowden, Philip

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Pointer, Joseph

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Mr. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "first meeting of the Irish Parliament," and to insert instead thereof the words "passing of the Act."
  After the speech from the Prime Minister this afternoon, I rather hoped that the Minister in charge, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, would be able to accept this Amendment. The Prime Minister made it clear that he had been impressed by the arguments used both yesterday and to-day on this point, and he said straight that he saw that there was a grievance, which we had pointed out, that the large number of 103 Irish Members might be kept here for a much longer period by the operation of the Amendments which the Government are now proposing. By the Amendments the larger number can be kept for eight months after the passing of the Act, and then there is another seven if the eight months is extended by Order in Council, and then there is another twelve on top of that. This makes altogether twenty-seven months during which the larger number might be
  538
  kept in this House by the wish of the Government. It might be that the Government would be anxious to have the larger number of Irish Members here, as they are at the present moment, because if it were not for their Friends below the Gangway we should probably have had them out of office long ago. If the Government have got their Bill, why delay after the passing of the Act the operation of the retirement of the present Members and the election of those who are to succeed them? As the Prime Minister has recognised that this is a real grievance, which might happen according to the exigencies of the Government for the time being, this Amendment gives the right hon. Gentleman the opportunity of getting rid of the grievance, which has been admitted.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that if his Amendment were accepted we should have a constitutional difficulty, which, to a constitutionalist like myself, is very serious. You would have 103 Members vacating their seats here with no places where they could get seats for themselves.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: That is not so if the Amendment is made.
  Mr. BIRRELL: Yes, if the Amendment is made.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I mean the Amendment promised by the Prime Minister.
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Amendment promised by the Prime Minister limits the time, which the Prime Minister fully recognised should be made as short as possible, when there would be 103 Members from Ireland sitting in this House, pending the establishment of the House in their own country, where they could sit. I apprehend that the point which the Prime Minister made was that it was extremely desirable that that period should be curtailed as much as possible, but it cannot be curtailed down to nothing, and though I certainly hope that the Irish Parliament will be set up at the earliest possible date, and that even the period allowed by the Amendment suggested by the Prime Minister will not be reached, still it would be unjust to the Irish constituencies that they should be for some months deprived of any representation in any House whatsoever. It is all very well throwing imputations across the floor of the House, as to the use parties make of Members. That is not the theory of the Constitution. The theory of the Constitution is that Members represent constituencies, and are not mere pawns in the game, either for my right hon. Friend, or the very perfect and autocratic Gentlemen whom I see opposite to me, who are quite willing at the earliest possible moment to take his place. It cannot be true for the purposes of the Amendment, that that is what hon. Members in this House are. I hope it is not true. To the extent to which it is true, it is a disability of their power. We are bound to argue this question on the assumption that it is most desirable that Ireland, and all other parts of the United Kingdom, should be represented constitutionally in this House until such time as the modified Constitution comes into operation, and when the 103 disappear, the forty-two will take their place.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: Either we misunderstood the Prime Minister's promise, or the right hon. Gentleman is arguing on a wrong assumption. We understood the Prime Minister to say that the passing of the Bill would be the same thing as the
  540
  appointed day. If so, the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman did not apply.
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Prime Minister did not say anything of the kind.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: He did, in the most distinct terms.
  Mr. BIRRELL: No. What the Prime Minister said was there would be two days—the passing of the Act, when it would receive the Royal Assent, and the day when the Act came into operation; and he pledged himself to introduce an Amendment which would make it perfectly plain what that appointed day was. That is not the passing of the Act.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: He said so.
  Mr. BIRRELL: He said nothing of the kind.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: We will see in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow.
  Mr. BIRRELL: He agreed that the appointed day should be fixed, that there should be an area within which the termini were to be fixed, and he indicated that there should be a period of time within which the day named might either be accelerated or postponed.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: It was in answer to the point I made. The Prime Minister stated most distinctly that he had come to the conclusion that the proper way to remedy all these technicalities was that the passing of the Act was to be made by an Amendment to Clause 46, the appointed day. But they were to reserve the power of varying the appointed day for different purposes. He said so in the most distinct way.
  Sir EDWARD CARSON: Where is the Prime Minister now?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I certainly understood the Prime Minister in the way in which I have said. I thought the Prime Minister took the most extraordinary pains, step by step, to keep the matter clear to right hon. Gentlemen opposite. It now appears that he completely failed.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: No, he was perfectly clear.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I do not see what the object of the Amendment is. It is impossible for us to accept the proposition that I the 103 Irish Members should cease to be

  541
  in this House until such time as there is a House in Ireland for them to carry their representation to.
  Mr. CASSEL: I think that the right hon. Gentleman has not very carefully studied the Bill when he made his answer to this Amendment. He seemed to think that the effect of this Amendment would be to leave Irish constituencies unrepresented for a longer time than they would be under the Bill. That is not the effect of the Amendment at all, because whether you have the Amendment or the Bill as it stands the period during which the Irish constituencies are unrepresented is precisely the same. It is the period which it takes to elect the forty-two after the 103 have vacated their seats.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I was speaking of the Irish Members.
  Mr. CASSEL: I am on the Clause under which Irish constituencies are represented.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am speaking of in Ireland, and they cannot be represented there until the Parliament is set up.
  Mr. CASSEL: As we go on from Clause to Clause we find out more and more that the Government do not know their own Bill. Yesterday we found out that they did not understand when the Executive commenced or when the Parliament commenced, and to-day the right hon. Gentle man seems to think that this is a question of the Irish Parliament. It is not. It is a question of representation of Irish constituencies in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. So far as that is concerned the Amendment does not in the least alter even by one minute the period during which Irish constituencies are unrepresented in this House. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that the Amendment docs not in the least alter that period?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The hon. Member does not understand what I said. What I said w as the condition on which the Irish Members themselves consented to the reduction of their number from 103 to forty-two was that they should have an Irish House in which they would be able to sit as representatives of Irish opinion in that House. Until that Irish House is established, it would be unreasonable to reduce the number here from 103 to forty-two.
  7.0 P.M.
  Mr. CASSEL: With reference to that point, at present we have got two contra-
  542
  dictory proposals. He has got one proposal in Clause 13 that it shall be delayed till after the appointed day, but the appointed day is not the day of the first meeting of the Irish Parliament. I have tried on several occasions to make that clear to the right hon Gentleman. The appointed day is the day on which there is a Parliament in Ireland; it is not the day of the first meeting of the Irish Parliament. Surely it is not right that we should have an intervening period between the date; that you have a Parliament in Ireland and the date of its first meeting, during which these gentlemen are still to be in this House. The date of the first meeting is nowhere expressly defined in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman may read the amended Bill through from the first word to the last and he will not find a single provision which fixes the meeting of the first Parliament, except Clause 6, that it must meet within the year. What we want to get rid of is that period of a year. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman understood our object. Our object is to get rid of the intervening period between the time when there is a Parliament in Ireland and the first meeting of the Irish Parliament, which period may be a period of a year, during which these gentlemen will have a Parliament in Ireland if only they choose to meet there, and at the same time Irish Members are still to come here and have the right to take part in our deliberations.
  I am quite sure that if the Prime Minister were here he would agree that the words in the Bill as it stands are impossible, if for no other reason than the fact that there are these two contradictory provisions in the Bill. Would the right hon. Gentleman mind reading Sub-section (1) of Clause 13, which says that "after the appointed day the number of members returned by constituencies in Ireland to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, shall be forty-two"; so that, assuming there is an appointed day, any particular day that the right hon. Gentleman may like to name, on that day they provide that there shall only be forty-two Irish Members in this House, when, as a matter of fact, in Clause 42, Subsection (2), there is an entirely different position, namely, that the 103 Members only vacate their seats on a date which may be made by Order alone. You cannot possibly leave those two provisions in the Bill. It is a vitally important question whether we are to have

  543
  103 Members in this House or forty-two Members. On a point of that description, which may turn the position of Parliament in this House, you cannot have two contradictory provisions in this Bill. I submit that the right date would be the date of the passing of the Act, which, I understand, is to be the appointed day; but whether that is so or not, I submit that is the right date. From the moment you place upon the Statute Book an Act of Parliament which says that there is to be a certain representation of Ireland in this House, from that moment we, as representatives of constituencies in Great Britain, are entitled to object to Irish Members continuing to be here in the same number as at present.
  Mr. BIRRELL: Why?
  Mr. CASSEL: The right hon. Gentleman has himself admitted that we are reducing their number, and I say that ought to take effect from the moment the Act of Parliament is passed which creates the Irish Legislature. It is absurd and unreasonable, on the grounds I gave on a previous Amendment, that there should be any Irish representation in this House by persons who would have the right to control British affairs; but if you are to have them, then I say that from the date of the Act of Parliament, the number ought to be reduced. Whatever else you may do, in regard to the provisions of this Clause, you cannot leave the Bill as it is at present, for it would be absolutely and hopelessly inconsistent.
  Sir E. CARSON: I certainly understood in the earlier part of the day that the Prime Minister stated that, to get over the difficulty as regards various provisions in this Act with reference to the passing of the Act, that the appointed day shall, for the purposes of the Act, be considered the date of the passing of the Act.
  The PRIME MINISTER: No; I never said that. I was not here when this question was raised, because I was receiving a deputation, and I left them speaking. I said, on the contrary, that I thought the date of the operation, the commencement of the operation of the Act, ought to be the appointed day, and not the date of the passing of the Act. I quoted the precedents of the Irish Local Government Act and the English Education Act.
  Sir E. CARSON: I may have expressed myself wrongly, but I think we mean
  544
  really the same thing. What I said was that the Prime Minister stated that the Clauses of the Act would not come into effect until the appointed day instead of coming into effect, as they would otherwise, on the passing of the Act.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I did not, of course, accept the view, although I did not controvert it, that the Bill as now drawn will come into effect on the passing of the Act. I did not accept that, but I said that I would make it clear that it could not come into operation until the date of the commencement of the operation of the Act, which I also said ought to be the same as the appointed day.
  Sir E. CARSON: That is exactly what I understand. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] This is the last night we shall have to discuss the Clauses of this Bill. The question before us is one of very grave complication, and I have frequently noticed that the man laughs most who understands least. The real truth of the matter is that if we wanted to leave this measure complicated and in a state of chaos we have only to do nothing at all. I do not suppose it would benefit us one way or the other if what is called a concession were, made in order to set right the drafting or the Bill, and to make it into sense where it is nonsense at the present moment. I understood the Prime Minister, as regards Clause 27, to concede that the "passing of the Act" in that Clause did mean, in reference to the appointment of judges, that the appointment on the passing of the Act was immediately to lapse to the Lord Lieutenant.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think those words should be omitted.
  Sir E. CARSON: If the Clauses of the Act are to come into operation on the appointed day, surely there ought to be something regulating the time when the. Irish Members cease to be Members of this House. I do not care whether it be the appointed day, or whether it be on the passing of the Act, or whether it be as in the case of the judges, it is perfectly clear that you must refer to some particular date as the time at which Irish Members are to cease to have seats in this House. I think an examination of the Bill will show that to make it hang together it must be the appointed date. If you look at Clause 13 you see that after the appointed date the number of Members

  545
  returned by constituencies in Ireland to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall be forty-two. Therefore, at that time, the 103 Members must have ceased to be Members of this House. When, therefore, do they cease to be Members of this House? Ought it not to be on the appointed day, after the Members are reduced from 103 to forty-two? I cannot see how you are to make these two things hang together unless the two things are coterminous. Forty-two Members coming into this House from the Irish constituencies on, according to Clause 13, the appointed date, and the 103 Members here already should go out at the same time. Then you will have the two things hanging together, and you will be able to make your Bill work. But look at how you deal with it in the other way. The appointed day apparently will be the first Tuesday in eight months after the passing of the Bill. On the first Tuesday in eight months after the passing of the Bill forty-two Members are to be sent to this House. But the Irish House of Commons may not have met then, and may not meet until long afterwards, and so you will have 103 Members here and forty-two Members under Clause 13. There is nothing to meet that in the Bill, now that you have struck out the first Sub-section by the last Amendment. You have said that the Irish Parliament shall meet on the first Tuesday in September. There is no date now in the Bill, nor is there any date proposed, and all we have is that they must meet once a year. When is that to date from? I do not know, but I suppose from the appointed day, and the appointed day is the first Tuesday in eight months after the passing of the Bill, and within a year after that. For a year and eight months there may be no Irish Parliament at all, and still on the appointed day forty-two Members will be sent here. I submit that the Bill will not work in its present form, unless there is some Amendment made. If not, then the Amendment of my hon. Friend should be accepted, making the appointed day with reference to Members going out of the House, and the forty-two Members coming into the House.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I quite see the point, and certainly I shall endeavour to meet it. It might be met, I think, under Clause 46, by an Order in Council assimilating the two dates. I quite agree that there ought not to be a period when there is no representation of Ireland here, and
  546
  while there is no Irish Parliament existing there. We all agree about that. It may be obviated, I think by a Provisional Order under Clause 46. It might also be met by accelerating and providing a date within which the first meeting of the Irish Parliament must take place under Subsection (2), or it might be met by postponing the operation of Sub-section (1) of Clause 13, until the time when the Irish Parliament does meet Those are three possible ways of meeting the matter. I am disposed to think that the Bill sufficiently provides for it by Clause 46, but I will consider whether it is so or not.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I would point out that the last suggestion of the Prime Minister to postpone Clause 13 is not a good one, because the result of that would be that we might have the 103 Irish Members here for a long time. The real object of the Bill, or I understand it is one of the objects advanced by hon. Gentlemen opposite, is to get rid of the Irish Members here, and of the congestion of business. Therefore the sooner we get rid of them the better. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree to that, and when he considers the best way to meet the difficulty, I hope he will not meet it in the way in which he suggested last.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELL: I will just point out to the right hon. Gentleman that in his absence we were left completely under a misapprehension as regards the very specific statement the Prime Minister made in reply to the remarks I ventured to address to the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary apparently did not understand.
  Mr. BIRRELL: It was I who understood it, and it was you who did not.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I will now proceed to demonstrate that he had not the faintest notion of what the undertaking given by the Prime Minister was. There was no doubt in my mind as to what it was, and no difference between the Prime Minister's recollection and mine. It was this. I took occasion to point out that while in Clause 46 you made provision for an appointed day, you omitted to take notice that under various other Clauses the Act must come into operation on the day it passed, either as the result of express enactment, or as a result of legal influence which, in the absence of limitation, would be the day the Bill passed. The right hon. Gentleman very graciously

  547
  and readily agreed, and he said the best way to provide for that was to put in words that would make the appointed day the passing of the Act.
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, no. To make it the commencement of the operation.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: That is the same thing.
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, it is not.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: The right hon. Gentleman will do his best to get the Chief Secretary out of a hole, but I want to say that so far as he and I are concerned, we are entirely agreed. [An HON. MEMBER: "No, no."] The hon. Member who made that interruption, I am quite certain, yields to no one in his ignorance on the entire contents of this Bill. I was dealing with the point raised by the Chief Secretary. There was not and is not now any difference of recollection or conflict of opinion between myself and the Prime Minister as to what occurred. What he said was this, that in order to get rid of these difficulties he would make the date when the Bill came into operation the appointed day. I never understood him to say anything else.
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is what I said.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I am quite sure the Chief Secretary is beginning to see some light now, but that is absolutely inconsistent with the Chief Secretary's argument in reply to my hon. Friend's Amendment, and I will tell you why. Of course, we all understood that the Chief Secretary never took the trouble to read the Bill. The Amendment of my hon. Friend is to insert the words "passing of this Act." The effect of that would have been, coupled with the Prime Minister's Amendment, to make the date of the passing of the Act the same date as the date when, under Clause 46, the Bill was to come into operation—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no"]—and therefore would have carried out the express purpose and the very thing that the Prime Minister said he was going to do as a result of the Amendment to Clause 46. In other words, once the Prime Minister's Amendment appeared in Clause 46, where-ever you found in the Bill "passing of the Act," that meant, as defined in Clause 46, with the new Amendment, the date when the Act was to come into operation, namely,
  548
  the appointed day. Therefore, the Amendment which is now moved, and which the right hon. Gentleman said was going to revolutionise the whole Bill, would have been exactly on the lines of the concession, the suggested concession, of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and would have carried out his purpose.
  An HON. MEMBER: No, no.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I wish the hon. Member would get upon his legs, and not keep continually interrupting.
  The CHAIRMAN: May I say, and I have said it before, that it does not advance discussion, even if Members disagree with something that is said, to be continually saying "No, no," on one side or the other.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I am the last to object to any interruption if I am misrepresenting anybody or misquoting anything, but when it is merely stating my own views, and when there is every opportunity to the hon. Member afterwards to get up, I think under the conditions under which we are debating that it is only fair to let me state my case. I want to make it perfectly plain why it is I say that the Amendment which is now moved ought to have been accepted. The Amendment is to insert "passing of the Act." Once the Prime Minister's Amendment is put into the Bill, wherever the words "passing of the Act" occur they will be construed in the sense defined in Clause 46—that;s to say, they will be construed as the date when the Act comes into operation, namely, the appointed day. Therefore this Amendment expressly and directly carries out and follows the very lines of the Amendment which the Prime Minister said he felt coerced to make in Clause 46 in order to make the Bill clear. In other words, he gets rid of the difficulty that some matters would come into operation on the passing of the Act. As he did not intend that, he amends that to mean when the Act came into operation, namely, the appointed day. The result of that would be that wherever "passing of the Act" is found, it would be construed as meaning the appointed day. In accordance with that the hon. Member moves that the words be inserted here, namely, "passing of the Act." The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary gets up and says that will destroy the whole scope of these provisions. I say they are in direct conformity with the pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman, and will

  549
  bring the Bill, or this part of the Bill, into harmony with the provisions which the Prime Minister says he is going to insert in Clause 46.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Let me make it perfectly clear. My undertaking was not that wherever the words "passing of this Act" are used in the Bill they should be synonymous with the commencement of the operation of the Bill. The illustration I myself took was Clause 14, Sub-section (2) (a), which deals with the Transferred Sum. There the date at which the figures are to be calculated refers to the time of the passing of the Act. That I intend to remain. Again, if you look at another set of provisions, namely, those which are to be found in Clause 33 and subsequent Clauses dealing with officers, there the critical date for the removal of any officer is at the time of the passing of the Act.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: That does not touch the Amendment.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I want to make it quite clear. I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman really misunderstood, but there were some phrases he used which conveyed that I had said that wherever the words "passing of the Act" were found they were to be translated into commencement of the operation. I am quite clear it is not so where we are dealing, as in certain Clauses, with dates such as the date of the Transferred Sum and the date as to officers in the service of the Irish Government. In Clause 27 I agree the words ought to be deleted.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: What about the Clause setting up the Executive?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The phrase does not occur there.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: Are you going to include that in the appointed day?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I include the whole Act, subject, of course, to the powers under Clause 46, to anticipate by
  Order in Council the machinery. Is that clear?
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I quite understand.
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is also clear what I have said is where you are really determining the date at which a particular service shall be calculated or a particular office shall be terminated there the passing of the Act is the date, not the commencement of the operation of the Act.
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The proper words are the words "at the commencement of the operation of the Act," and not the words "first meeting of the Irish Parliament." If I apprehend the Prime Minister's speech aright, the critical point is the commencement of the operation of the Act—that is to say, the first of the different appointed days which may have to be appointed. I suggest it is quite clear that the words "upon the first meeting of the Irish Parliament" ought to be left out, and the words "on the commencement of the operation of the Act" inserted.
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is not the Amendment.
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The Amendment is to leave those words out.
  Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: Do hon. Members above the Gangway seriously propose that the Irish Members who at present are in the Imperial Parliament should disappear from that Parliament before the Irish Parliament comes into existence?
  HON. MEMBERS: No, no.
  Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: That is the meaning of the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed 10 be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 321; Noes, 198.

  Division No. 413.]

  AYES.

  [7.30 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Bethell, Sir John Henry

  Adamson, William

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Black,. Arthur W.

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Boland, John Plus

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Barnes, George N.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barton, William

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Brace, William

  Arnold, Sydney

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Brady, P. J.

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Brunner, J. F. L.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nuttall, Harry

  Burns, Rt. Hen. John

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Buxton, Rt. Hen. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  O'Dewd, John

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Ogden, Fred

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Grady, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Clough, William

  Hinds, John

  O'Malley, William

  Clynes, John R.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hodge, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Shee, James John

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Cotton, William Francis

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Crean, Eugene

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Crooks, William

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Crumley, Patrick

  John, Edward Thomas

  Philippe, Col. Sir Ivor (Southampton)

  Cullinan, John

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jones, Lelf Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  De Forest, Baron

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Delany, William

  Keating, Matthew

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Radford, G. H.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Donelan, Captain A.

  King, J.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Doris, William

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Reddy, M.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Leach, Charles

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richards, Thomas

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lundon, T,

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Falconer, James

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  McGhee, Richard

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Field, William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Kean, John

  Rowlands, James

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Manfield, Harry

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Sheehy, David

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Master man, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Meagher, Michael

  Shortt, Edward

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Molloy, Michael

  Snowden, Philip

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hackett, J.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Mooney, John J.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Hancock, John George

  Morrell, Philip

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Muldoon, John

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Munro, R.

  Sutton, John E.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Thomas, J. H.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  552

  553

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Waring, Walter

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Webb, H.

  Winfrey, Richard

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr

  Wardle, George J.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Grant, J. A.

  Nield, Herbert

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Greene, W. R.

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Archer-Shee, Major

  Gretton, John

  Orde-Powiett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hall, Marshall (L'pool, E. Toxteth)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs.)

  Barnston, H.

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Royds, Edmund

  Bird, A.

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Boyton, James

  Hills, John Waller

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Home, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanier, Beville

  Cassel, Felix

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Cator, John

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John R.

  Cave, George

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Jessel, Capt. H. M.

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Swift, Rigby

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutstord)

  Chambers, James

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Terrell, G. (Wilts., N. W.)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Croft, Henry Page

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Doughty, Sir George

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Falle, B. G.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Fell, Arthur

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Winterton, Earl

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  M'Ncill, Ronald (Kent. St. Augustine's)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Midmay, Francis Bingham

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Goldman, C. S.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Younger, Sir George

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mount, William Arthur

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Samuel Roberts and Sir H. Craik.

  It being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Seven of the clock at this day's sitting
  Government Amendment: In Subsection (3), leave out the words "Subject to the provisions of this Act."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 321; Noes, 197.

  Division No. 414.]

  AYES.

  [7.40 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hodge, John

  Adamson, William

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Doris, William

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Duffy, William J.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Arnold, Sydney

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Jones, Lelf Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Barton, William

  Falconer, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Beale, Sir William Phlpson

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Jowett, F. W.

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Joyce, Michael

  Bentham, G. J.

  Field, William

  Keating, Matthew

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Black, Arthur W.

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Kilbride, Denis

  Boland, John Pius

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Gilhooly, James

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, s. Molton)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Brace, William

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Glanville, H. J.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rlnd, Cockerm'th)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Leach, Charles

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Buckmaster, Stanley 0.

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Lundon, Thomas

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  McGliee, Richard

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Guiney, Patrick

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Hackett, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hancock, J. G.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  M'Kean, John

  Clough, William

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Clynes, John R.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  M'Laren, Hon, F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Manfield, Harry

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Cotton, William Francis

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Crean, Eugene

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Crooks, William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Meagher, Michael

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hayward, Evan

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Cullinan, John

  Hazleton, Richard

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Molloy, Michael

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Mooney, John J.

  Dawes, J. A.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Morrell, Philip

  De Forest, Baron

  Higham, John Sharp

  Muldoon, John

  Delany, William

  Hinds, John

  Munro, R.

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Thomas, James Henry

  Nannettl, Joseph P.

  Reddy, M.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Redmond, John E. (Watertord)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Richards, Thomas

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  O'Dowd, John

  Robinson, Sidney

  Wardle, George J.

  Ogden, Fred

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Waring, Walter

  O'Grady, James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  O'Malley, William

  Rowlands, James

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Webb, H.

  O'Shee, James John

  Russell, Rt. Hon, Thomas W.

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Sheeny, David

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Shortt, Edward

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Snowden, Philip

  Winfrey, Richard

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Sutton, John E.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Radford, G. H.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Gretton, John

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Chambers, James

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Barnston, Harry

  Cralk, Sir Henry

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Barrie, H. T.

  Croft, H. P.

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  8athurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Dalziei, Davison (Brixton)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Doughty, Sir George

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Faber, George Denlson (Clapham)

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Bird, Alfred

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Blair, Reginald

  Fell, Arthur

  Hills, John Waller

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Boyton, James

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Fiannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Butcher, John George

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Carlite, Sir Edward Hildred

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Hunt, Rowland

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Gilmour, Captain John

  lugleby, Holcombe

  Cassel, Felix

  Goldman, C. S.

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Cator, John

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Cave, George

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Kerry, Earl of

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  558

  559

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Swift, Rigby

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Qullter, Sir William Eley C.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lyttelton, Hon. I. C. (Droitwich)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Royds, Edmund

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Masnn, James F. (Windsor)

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Winterton, Earl

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Mlldmay, Francis Bingham

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Wortrey, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Stanier, Beville

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Nield, Herbert

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Younger, Sir George

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Lewisham and Mr. S. Hill-Wood.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), after the word "applicable" ["shall, so far as applicable, extend "], to insert the words—
  "and subject to the provisions of this Act, and especially to any provision enabling the Irish Parliament to alter those
  laws as respects the Irish House of Commons."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 319; Noes, 194.

  Division No. 415.]

  AYES.

  [7.50 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Adamson, William

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Esmende, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Falconer, James

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Clough, William

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Clynes, John R.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Arnold, Sydney

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Field, William

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Cotton, William Francis

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Gilhooly, James

  Barnes, G. N.

  Crean, Eugene

  Gill, A. H.

  Barton, William

  Crooks, William

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Beale, Sir William Phlpson

  Crumley, Patrick

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Cullinan, John

  Glanville, H. J.

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Bentham, G. J.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Boland, John Plus

  Dawes, J. A.

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  De Forest, Baron

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Bowerman, C. W,

  Delany, William

  Gulney, Patrick

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Gulland, John William

  Brace, William

  Devlin, Joseph

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hackett, John

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Doris, William

  Hancock, J. G.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Duffy, William J.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Meagher, Michael

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Rowlands, James

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Molloy, Michael

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Hayward, Evan

  Mooney, John J.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Morrell, Philip

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  Muldoon, John

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Munro, R.

  Sheehy, David

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Shortt, Edward

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Nannetti, Joseph P

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Nicholson, Sir Charies N. (Doncaster)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Hinds, John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Snowden, Philip

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hodge, John

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Hogge, James Myles

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Nuttall, Harry

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Holt, Richard burning

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Connor, John (Klldare, N.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Donneli, Thomas

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Dowd, John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Ogden, Fred

  Thomas, James Henry

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  O'Grady, James

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Malley, William

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Shee, James John

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Wadsworth, J.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Joyce, Michael

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Keating, Matthew

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Wardle, George J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Waring, Walter

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Pointer, Joseph

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Law, Hugh A (Donegal, W.)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rlnd, Cockerm'th)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Leach, Charles

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Webb, H.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Radford, G. H.

  Wiles, Thomas

  McGhee, Richard

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Wilkie, Alexander

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Reddy, M.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  M'Kean, John

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Winfrey, Richard

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Richards, Thomas

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Manfleld, Harry

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Wedgwood Benn and. Mr. W. Jones.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Robinson, Sidney

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Bird, Alfred

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Barnston, Harry

  Blair, Reginald

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Barrie, H. T.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Boyton, James

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Butcher, John George

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  562

  563

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Cassel, Felix

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Cator, John

  Hills, John Waller

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Cave, George

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Royds, Edmund

  Chambers, James

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen)

  Clay, Captain H. H, Spender

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Hunt, Rowland

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, s.)

  Jesse), Captain H. M.

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Croft, H. P.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Stanier, Beviile

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. Hints., Mile End)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Fell, Arthur

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Lytteiton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Gilmour, Captain John

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Goldman, C. S.

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Macmaster, Donald

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  M'Nelil, Ronald (Kent, St Augustine's)

  Ward, A. S. (Watford)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Gretton, John

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Winterton, Earl

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Nield, Herbert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  R. Baker and Mr. Hambro.

  Herbert, Hon A. (Somerset, S.)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Government Amendment: In Subsection (3), after the word "the" ["extend to the Irish House of Commons and the members thereof"], insert the words "Irish Senate and the."—[Mr. Birrell]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 185.

  Division No. 416.]

  AYES.

  [8.0 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Aciand, Francis Dyke

  Barton, William

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Adamson, William

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Bentham, G. J

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Birreil, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Black, Arthur W.

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Boland, John Pius

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Clough, William

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Clynes, John R.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Brace, William

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Compton-Rickett, Fit. Hon. Sir J.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Crean, Eugene

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Roiherham

  Crooks, William

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Cullinan, John

  John, Edward Thomas

  Pointer, Joseph

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Davies, Sir w. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, Lelf Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  De Forest, Baron

  Joyce, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Delany, William

  Keating, Matthew

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reddy, M.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Doris, William

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Richards, Thomas

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lawson, sir W. (Cumb'rlnd, Cockerm'th)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Leach, Charles

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Falconer, James

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Farrell, lames Patrick

  McGhee, Richard

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Field, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rowlands, James

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Kean, John

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines, Spalding)

  Sheehy, David

  Gill, A. H.

  Manfield, Harry

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Shortt, Edward

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Simon, Sir John Alisebrook

  Glanville, H. J.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Masterman, Rt. Hon, C. F. G.

  Snowden, Philip

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Meagher, Michael

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Molloy, Michael

  Sutton, John E.

  Guiney, Patrick

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Gulland, John William

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Mooney, John J.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Hackett, John

  Morrell, Philip

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Muldoon, John

  Thomas, James Henry

  Hancock, J. G.

  Munro, R.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Nannetti, Joseph P,

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Wadsworth, J.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wardle, George J.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Waring, Walter

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Dowd, John

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Ogden, Fred

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Grady, James

  Webb, H.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Malley, William

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Hinds, John

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H

  O'Shaughnessy, P. I.

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Hodge, John

  O'Shee, James John

  Wiles, Thomas

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Wilkie, Alexander

  566

  567

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Wood, Rt. Hon, T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nield, Herbert

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Gretton, John

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hambro, Angus Vaidemar

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J, (Kensington, S.)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bird, Alfred

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Royds, Edmund

  Blair, Reginald

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Boyton, James

  Hills, John Waller

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Carlile, Sir Edward Mildred

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanier, Beville

  Cassel, Felix

  Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Cator, John

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cave, George

  Hunt, Rowland

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cecil, Lord R (Herts, Hitchin)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Chambers, James

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Valentia, Viscount

  Doughty, Sir George

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Fell, Arthur

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Younger, Sir George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Goldman, C. S.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cautley and Mr. Courthope.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "but those election laws may, except as provided by this Act, be altered by Irish Act."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 306; Noes, 172.

  Division No. 417.]

  AYES.

  [8.15 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Adamson, William

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Kean, John

  Addison, Dr. C.

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Manfield, Harry

  Arnold, Sydney

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Meagher, Michael

  Barnes, G. N.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Barton, William

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Menzies, Sir Waiter

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Guiney, Patrick

  Molloy, Michael

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Gulland, John William

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Bentham, G. J.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Hackett, John

  Mooney, John J.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Morrell, Philip

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hancock, J. G.

  Muldoon, John

  Boland, John Pius

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Munro, R.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Brace, William

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Nicholson, sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nuttall, Harry

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Dowd, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Ogden, Fred

  Clough, William

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Grady, James

  Clynes, John R.

  Hinds, John

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Malley, William

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hodge, John

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Shee, James John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Cotton, William Francis

  Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crean, Eugene

  Hughes, S. L.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Crooks, William

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cullinan, John

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. R.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Dawes, J. A.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  De Forest, Baron

  Jowett, F W.

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Delany, William

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Keating, Matthew

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Doris, William

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Reddy, M.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rlnd, Cockerm'th)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Leach, Charles

  Richards, Thomas

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lundon, Thomas

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Falconer, James

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  McGhee, Richard

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Field, William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  570

  571

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Tennant, Harold John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Rowlands, James

  Thomas, James Henry

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Sheehy, David

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wadsworth, J.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Shortt, Edward

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Winfrey, Richard

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Snowden, Philip

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wardle, George J.

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Waring, Walter

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Sutton, John E.

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Webb, H.

  Wedgwood Benn and Mr. William Jones.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gretton, John

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bird, Alfred

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Blair, Reginald

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Royds, Edmunds

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Boyton, James

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Butcher, John George

  Hills, John Waller

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Cassel, Felix

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Cator, John

  Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cave, George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Chambers, James

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kerry, Earl of

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Touche, George Alexander

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Fell, Arthur

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Macmaster, Donald

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Gardner, Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Younger, Sir George

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Goldman, C. S.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mount, William Arthur

  John Randles and Mr. Falle.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), after the word "the" ["elections of members of the Irish House of Commons"], to insert the words "Irish Senate and the."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 156.

  Division No. 418.]

  AYES.

  [8.20 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Field, William

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  McGhee, Richard

  Adamson, William

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Gilhooly, James

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Glanville, H. J.

  M'Kean, John

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Goldstone, Frank

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Barton, William

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Guiney, Patrick

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Gulland, John William

  Meagher, Michael

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hackett, John

  Menzies, Sir Waiter

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Boland, John Pius

  Hancock, J. G.

  Molloy, Michael

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Mooney, John J.

  Brace, William

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Muldoon, John

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Munro, R.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)>

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Hayward, Evan

  Nolan, Joseph

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Hazleton, Richard

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Clough, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Clynes, John R.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hinds, John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A,

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Cotton, William Francis

  Hodge, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Ogden, Fred

  Crean, Eugene

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Grady, James

  Crooks, William

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Malley, William

  Cullinan, John

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Shee, James John

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  De Forest, Baron

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Delany, William

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Doris, William

  Joyce, Michael

  Pointer, Joseph

  Duffy, William J.

  Keating, Matthew

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Duncan, C. Barrow-in-Furness)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Falconer, James

  Leach, Charles

  Reddy, M.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Lundon, Thomas

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lynch, A. A.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Richards, Thomas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Webb, H.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Sutton, John E.

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Robinson, Sidney

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Thomas, James Henry

  William, John (Glamorgan)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Rowlands, James

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Russell, Rt. Hon, Thomas W.

  Trevelyan Charles Philips

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Winfrey, Richard

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Wadsworth, J.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Sheehy, David

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Shortt, Edward

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe)

  Wardle, George J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Waring, Walter

  Wedgwood Benn and Mr. William Jones.

  Snowden, Philip

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bird, Alfred

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Blair, Reginald

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Boyton, James

  Hills, John Waller

  Rutherford, Watson, (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Cassel, Felix

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Cator, John

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Strauss, Arthur (paddington, North)

  Cave, George

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Chambers, James

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Fell, Arthur

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Macmaster, Donald

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Gastrell, Major W Houghton

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Royds and Mr. A. Ward.

  Government Amendment made: To leave out Sub-Section(4).—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 158.

  Division No. 419.]

  AYES.

  [8.30 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Adamson, William

  Glanville, H. J.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Mason, David M, (Coventry)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Meagher, Michael

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Menzies, Sir Waiter

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick, E. (Dorset, E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Molloy, Michael

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gulland, John William

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Barton, William

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Hackett, John

  Mooney, John J.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Morrell, Philip

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Hancock, J. G.

  Muldoon, John

  Benham, G. J.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Munro, R.

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Boland, John Pius

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harvey, W. E. (Dernyshire, N. E.)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Brace, William

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Dowd, John

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Ogden, James

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Grady, James

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hinds, John

  O'Malley, William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Clough, William

  Hodge, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cynes, John R.

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Shee, James John

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Crean, Eugene

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Crooks, William

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Crumley, Patrick

  John, Edward Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Cullinan, John

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  De Forest, Baron

  Jowett, F. W.

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Delany, William

  Joyce, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Keating, Matthew

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reddy, M.

  Doris, William

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Richards, Thomas

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'r'nd, Cockerm'th)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Elverston Sir Harold

  Leach, Charles

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lundon, Thomas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Falconer, James

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  McGhee, Richard

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Rowlands, James

  Field, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Kean, John

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Gilhooly, James

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Sheehy, David

  578

  579

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Shortt, Edward

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wiles, Thomas

  Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Snowden, Philip

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wardle, George J.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Sutton, John E.

  Waring, Walter

  Winfrey, Richard

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Webb, H.

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Thomas, James Henry

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Wm. Jones.

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir Wiliam R.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Baker, sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gretton, John

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bird, Alfred

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Blair, Reginald

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Royds, Edmund

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boyton, James

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Cassel, Felix

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cave, George

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Chambers, James

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim S.)

  Lawson, Hon H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Fell, Arthur

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE Noes.—Sir

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  H. Carlile and Mr. Goldsmith.

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mount, William Arthur

  CLAUSE 43.—(Temporary Provisions as to Payments Into, and Out of the Irish Exchequer.)
  (1) Pending the determination of the Transferred Sum by the Joint Exchequer
  580
  Board, the Treasury may make such payments on account of that sum into the Irish Exchequer as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.
  (2) The Joint Exchequer Board may authorise the Lord Lieutenant to make

  581
  such payments from the Irish Exchequer as may be necessary in order to provide for bringing this Act into operation, but no such authority shall be given after the expiration of a period of three months from the first meeting of the Irish Parliament.
  Mr. FELL: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "may" ["the Treasury may"], to insert the words "with the sanction of the Commons House of the Parliament of the United Kingdom."
  The object of this Amendment is to get rid of the difficulty which will arise in regard to administration after the passing of this Bill and before the establishment of the Irish Parliament. It is clear there must be an interregnum. It is proposed that, during that time, the control of the funds required in the administration of the Irish services should be under the Parliament here and not as proposed in the Bill. The proposal in the Bill is that pending the determination of the Transferred Sum by the Joint Exchequer Board the Treasury may make such payments on account of that sum into the Irish Exchequer as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct. But you will first have to find out what the Transferred Sum is. I believe there is some doubt as to the amount of that Transferred Sum, and it will be a matter of considerable time and difficulty before the point can be solved. During the interval before the Transferred Sum is fixed some steps will have to be taken, otherwise there will be a deadlock in Ireland and almost all the services will come to a standstill. The Transferred Sum is to be settled by the Joint Exchequer Board and that Board cannot, of course, be appointed until after the Act has been passed into law and until the Irish Treasury has been established, because the Irish Treasury is going to nominate two of the members of that Joint Exchequer Board, and, until the Irish Treasury is appointed—and when it can be appointed we have no possible means of ascertaining or guessing—the Exchequer Board cannot be fully constituted. We consequently have very great difficulty in discussing this matter, particularly after the Debate that took place this afternoon on a previous Clause. No one who listened to that Debate can have failed to experience a very great feeling of doubt on the point when the Act will come into operation. The date is, of course, unknown. There are indeed many unknown factors,
  582
  and that adds to our difficulty in discussing this matter. The Prime Minister has held out the promise or expectation that other Amendments of great importance will be introduced which will considerably alter the question of the time at which various steps will have to be taken before the transfer of the business, at present conducted on this side, to the Irish Parliament. That is why we are in a considerable difficulty in discussing this and subsequent Clauses.
  The Transferred Sum must first of all be ascertained. Then, under Clause 17, the Transferred Sum is to be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times as the Joint Exchequer Board direct. Under this Clause, pending the determination of the Transferred Sum, the Treasury may make payments on account to the Irish Exchequer. The Treasury is supposed to be going to act under the instructions of the Joint Exchequer Board. We arrive almost at a deadlock; first, the Irish Treasury is to be established and has to appoint its two members, then the Treasury here has to appoint its members, and with the chairman they form the Joint Exchequer Board. Then they will be able to go into the question of what is the Transferred Sum, but pending that, they can ask the Treasury to advance sums to the Irish Exchequer to enable it to meet the liabilities in Ireland and carry out the services of that country. I have said enough to show that there is considerable difficulty in ascertaining what are the actual practical steps that will have to be taken to carry out this business transaction. I suggest that as the Treasury in England is controlled by the House of Commons, so, until the Treasury in Ireland is properly established and the Irish Parliament is at work and able to control that Treasury, the payments made should be under the control of this House of Commons. Otherwise there is no control at all in the matter. The second part of this Clause provides that the Joint Exchequer Board may authorise the Lord Lieutenant to make such payments from the Irish Exchequer as may be necessary, but no such authority shall be given after the expiration of the period of three months from the first meeting of the Irish Parliament. The temporary nature of this provision is quite clear.
  The whole control is put into the hands of the Lord Lieutenant, That is a thing we have never heard of under our present Constitution. We certainly have never given the Lord Lieutenant control over finance. We do not know how long this

  583
  may continue. According to the Debate this afternoon it may continue for twenty-seven months. During that time the sums that will have to be paid will amount to more than £10,000,000. It is a very serious matter to put into the hands of any one man the control of payments amounting to £10,000,000. I do not believe that this Parliament ever means to sanction such an arrangement as that. In the Bill of two years ago we took particular care that the control of finance should remain with the House of Commons. We have taken particular care in the earlier Clauses of this Bill that the control of Irish finance is to remain with the Irish House of Commons, but here we have a suggestion that for possibly two years and three months the control of Irish finance should be neither with the House of Commons here nor with the House of Commons in Ireland, but is to be put into the hands of one man. I suppose it is suggested that he would act under advice, but I do not know whether it is to be of the Imperial Treasury or of the Joint Exchequer Board or of the Irish Treasury. I can foresee that there will be very many difficulties and many grave monetary questions arising in the course of two and a half years, and it is not fair to the Lord Lieutenant or to the Joint Exchequer Board that at a time like that they should not be controlled either by the Irish House of Commons or by this House. The matter seems so serious that until we hear some explanation it is difficult to see any way out of it. I have been trying to see what way there is out of it. You must, of course, get over the transfer time in a case like this, but it seems to me that the Government have come to no decision on the subject, nor have they established any practical means by which control can be secured.
  When any business is transferred as a going concern, the first thing that is done is to pitch on some date. It does not matter what that date is, whether it is a date ahead or a date past or the date the agreement is signed, but from that date the new concern takes it over. That is not the case here. The first principle of the transfer of any business is to fix the date, but that is the one thing the Government have carefully avoided doing in this Bill. They could not tell when the Bill would come into force, because that is an unknown date, but they could have said it should come into force six months, one month, or a year after a particular
  584
  date. If you have a fixed date, then the matter becomes a business transaction and is comparatively simple, because for all payments in and out from that date there is a line drawn. I suppose that the greater part of the money which comes in will have to be transferred, and the Joint Exchequer Board will ask for the greater bulk of these funds. I am sure they will want them. They will not be able to pay the full sums, and I think the Irish services will consequently be to some extent starved, and there will be considerable difficulties and no end of trouble through not knowing the date at which the balance is struck and the date when the full payments are to be made to the Irish Exchequer. We have the Exchequer here, and that is, of course, the Treasury. The Irish Exchequer is an unknown body, and I do not see how the Irish Exchequer can be set up until the Irish Parliament is at work. We have here an Exchequer of permanent officials who have been long at their work. The Treasury has the complete confidence of the country, but you could not start a new Treasury with new men that no one knows anything of and give it enormous financial powers straight away without taking a grave responsibility. Now there is no one to take that responsibility, because the Irish Parliament will not be established.
  I cannot see how you can establish a Treasury there which would be responsible to anyone, or which would meet with any recognition until the Irish Parliament is established, and until they have got their Cabinet and their Chancellor of the Exchequer, until the Chancellor of the Exchequer has appointed these permanent Treasury officials, and the Treasury is there as a body which people can look to, and which is under the control of the Irish Parliament. That cannot be done for certainly a year and a half, or it may be two years. I believe fifteen months would be the shortest time. So that the very way this Clause runs it is absolutely impossible to work it. I should be very glad to hear how these steps can logically be taken so as to carry the matter out. You have a body which is to be appointed by another body which is not in existence, and the first body has to take steps. Ordinary steps can, if necessary, be undone, but these are financial steps which involve the payment of huge sums of money, so that you have a body which is to be established by another body which does not exist, and which is to

  585
  have this enormous control of these financial responsibilities. Unless you have considerable Amendments—unless there are Amendments that we know nothing of which will establish this Treasury, and if these payments have to be made before the Joint Exchequer Board has to arrive at these sums, I do not see how the Clause can possibly work, and on these grounds I strongly urge that, pending this time, when there can be no responsible body which, at any rate, will meet with credit and be recognised, the English House of Commons is the proper body which ought to control this matter. We fix the date so that we shall have control for the longest or the shortest period, and we must accept the responsibility of all these payments, and if anything goes wrong in regard to them it is our responsibility and we shall have to take the burden of it. We shall have to bear the loss if it is a loss. If we have no responsibility, who should bear the loss I cannot say, but it is not fair to put it on bodies like this which will be created in such a manner as I have suggested. We must ourselves take the full responsibility. The House of Commons is responsible for the Irish money until the Irish House of Commons is established. On these grounds I strongly urge that some such Amendment as this ought to be inserted in the Bill.
  9.0 P.M.
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): As the Committee is aware, when the system contemplated by the Bill comes into full operation, the method of working will be as follows: The Irish services will have been transferred to the newly-formed Irish Government, and they will be paid for out of the Irish Exchequer. The Irish Exchequer will receive the greater part of its revenue, perhaps some £6,000,000, from the Imperial Exchequer under the name of the Transferred Sum. The Imperial Exchequer receiving all the Irish revenue, which now* amounts to about £9,000,000, out of this £9,000,000 about £6,000,000 will be paid back to Ireland. The Joint Exchequer Board will have determined what the right sum is to pay to the Irish Exchequer under the provisions of the Bill, and then the Irish Parliament will, like our Parliament does, vote by an appropriation, and out of these revenues, the sums which are required for the purposes of the year. But at the outset the whole of this machinery cannot possibly be brought simultaneously into operation. In the first place, the Irish Executive must
  586
  be set up and the Irish services transferred. But it is only when the Irish Executive is set up that the Joint Exchequer Board can be established, because two of the members of the Joint Exchequer Board are representatives of the Irish Treasury. Therefore when there is no Irish Treasury there can be no Joint Exchequer Board. The Joint Exchequer Board when it comes into operation must take some time to consider the many questions into which it will have to go in order to determine what is the proper amount of the Transferred Sum, and therefore if we were to have no provision such as that which appears in this Clause the Irish Executive would be in this position, that they would have come into existence, and would be responsible for Irish services, but they would have no money at all, except such incidental revenue as might come from the Post Office and other minor sources of revenue. They would have no revenue at all from their main sources of revenue pending the decision by the Joint Exchequer Board of the many financial and statistical problems with which they would have to deal. Therefore it is quite obvious that some provision must be made for enabling them to carry on meantime, and the obvious course is that, immediately on its formation, the Joint Exchequer Board shall authorise payment out of the Treasury of some moderate sum as payment on account to enable the Irish Government to proceed in the meantime. Of course, the Joint Exchequer Board will be very careful not to authorise a sum so large as to be likely to overstep the total of the Transferred Sum for the year, but any limitation which it might be thought desirable to place upon them would not necessarily involve that the Irish services should be starved because the Grant on account, might only cover a period, say, of two, three, or four months, while it would be safe for the Joint Exchequer Board to authorise any sum which would be less than the whole of the Transferred Sum for the year, so that possibly they will vote something very much within the possible charge which may fall upon the Exchequer.
  Then the hon. Member says that this Grant on account is to deal with the period between the Act coming into operation and the establishment of an Irish Executive, and the period when the Irish Parliament would come into existence. The first Sub-section has nothing whatever to do with the Irish Parliament, and whether the Irish Parliament comes into existence

  587
  simultaneously with the Irish Executive, or whether it comes into existence six months later does not in the least affect the first Sub-section. The first Sub-section simply deals with the period which will elapse while the Joint Exchequer Board is deliberating on what is the proper amount of the Transferred Sum for the year, and the existence or non-existence of the Irish Parliament has nothing whatever to do with the matter. Then the hon. Member says that the right body to have control over this question as to what should be the amount of the grant on account is not the Joint Exchequer Board, but the House of Commons. I fail to see why. The House of Commons will have nothing to say, under the provisions of the Bill, as to what shall be the total amount of the Transferred Sum for the year. That is left to the Joint Exchequer Board to determine on the precise lines which are laid down by the Bill. In the first year it will be the cost of the Irish services. They merely have to calculate what is the cost of the Irish services, and it is left to the Joint Exchequer Board to determine whether the sum which will conform to the terms of this Act is a sum of £6,000,000, or £6,250,000, or £6,300,000, or whatever it may be. It is left to them and to them alone, and the House of Commons will not be called upon to decide anything in connection with that. But now comes the hon. Member, who says that although Parliament will have decided by this Act that the House of Commons shall have nothing to say as to the whole sum, when it is merely a small portion to be granted on account this House of Commons is to intervene and say what proportion of the whole is to be granted on account. That surely is a very unreasonable proposal. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]
  Mr. FELL: It is until the Irish Exchequer appointed by the Irish House of Commons deals with the matter.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Neither the. Irish Exchequer, nor the Irish House of Commons, nor the Imperial House of Commons, will decide the matter. It is a matter for determination by the Joint Exchequer Board, and if that Board have to say what the whole amount is to be, whether it is £6,000,000 or £6,250,000, surely they should say whether the grant on account should be £1,000,000 or £1,250,000, and there is no reason to call in this House of Commons to decide the lesser sum when
  588
  you do not call it in to decide the greater sum. As to Sub-section (2), the hon. Member says that until the Irish Parliament comes into existence, you ought not to leave the Lord Lieutenant to decide upon the expenditure of the money. Sub-section (2) deals with an entirely different matter. Sub-section (1) deals with the sum which the Treasury may pay on account into the Irish Exchequer pending the determination of the Transferred Sum by the Joint Exchequer Board. Sub-section (2) deals with the spending of that money in Ireland, whatever the amount may be. In normal circumstances, as I have pointed out, the spending of any money by the Irish Treasury would naturally depend upon an Act passed by the Irish Legislature, and no expenditure could be authorised unless it was authorised by an Irish Act of Parliament. What is to occur during the first few months when the Irish Parliament may not be in existence, or when the Irish Parliament has not had time to pass the initial Acts? Necessarily the initial stages of setting up the Legislature must take some time. There will be formal proceedings which will take some time, and it may be some weeks before an Appropriation Act can be passed. What is to be done, in the meantime? The Irish Exchequer cannot be left without money, and clearly ex hypothesi the Irish Parliament is not in a position to authorise it. There must be some means of bridging the intervening period, and surely it is unreasonable to ask this House of Commons to decide upon the preliminary expenditure which the Irish Parliament will have to incur—to call in the Imperial House of Commons, which will have no knowledge of the circumstances, to pass what is really an Irish Appropriation Bill dealing with a short period such as this.
  In this matter we have followed precedent whenever a new Parliament has been set up in other parts of the British Dominions. As regards South Africa and Australia, you find a provision in each Act to the effect that until an Appropriation Bill can be passed by the new Parliament, and for a limited time after the meeting of that Parliament, the Governor-General shall be authorised to expend such money as may be necessary for carrying on the public services. In the Acts dealing with these Dominions there is a Clause precisely similar to that which we are asking the House to pass now. The same authority which we ask the House to give to the Lord Lieutenant has been given to

  589
  the Governor-General of South Africa and the Governor-General of Australia. [An HON. MEMBER: "You give it to the Joint Exchequer Board."] No, no, we are here putting in an additional check which is not included in the Constitutions of those Dominions, because there the Governor-General has absolute power. Here the Lord Lieutenant has only power to spend such money as is authorised by the Joint Exchequer Board, and so, if anything, we are imposing a limitation in the case of Ireland which is not to be found with respect to South Africa and Australia, The hon. Member's Amendment does not apply to Sub-section (2), and if it were inserted in the Clause it would not in the least have the effect of putting the determination of this matter into the hands of the House of Commons. Even if an Amendment were moved on Sub-section (2), I should resist it for the reasons I have given.
  Sir J. D. REES: The right hon. Gentleman's arguments seem to me in many respects to confirm the necessity of my hon. Friend's Amendment. He argues that this control is not necessary in respect of the Joint Exchequer Board under this Clause, because that Board will make advances within the total sum, which will be £6,000.000. But where is it provided in the Bill that the sum which the Joint Exchequer Board might direct the Treasury to pay to the Irish Exchequer shall be within the total of £6,000,000?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I did not say it was. The hon. Member is, I am sure, aware that there are no figures in the Bill. There are calculations which have been laid before Parliament in the White Paper which indicate that the sum will probably be about £6,000,000.
  Sir J. D. REES: I am aware of that, and I am also aware that these calculations are not binding on any authority under the Bill. They might, so far as the action of the Joint Exchequer Board is concerned, not exist. Where is it provided that the Joint Exchequer Board's action should be limited to the comparatively small sum which the right hon. Gentleman stated it was intended that the Irish Exchequer should get, and where is it provided that they could not double the amount? I am not suggesting that this would happen, but surely in dealing with legislation there should be sufficient precision in dealing with a point like that. The right hon. Gentleman said in so many words, "Oh, the
  590
  Irish Parliament does not matter." He ignored the difficulty in regard to the Joint-Exchequer Board, which is to be brought into existence without reference to any limits. He said that the Joint Exchequer Board would be careful in its action, or used words to the effect that it was not likely to take any excessive action which might be fairly criticised from the financial point of view. The House has no assurance of that, and even if the Joint Exchequer Board had such good intentions as the right hon. Gentleman credited it with, it would for the purposes of legislation have no power whatever. The right hon. Gentleman presumes that everything will be for the best in the best of all possible Irish worlds. On this side of the House the contrary assumption prevails. I would submit to the Committee that it is absolutely necessary in matters of legislation to provide against every kind of villainy, even although you might not think such would be likely to be practised. It is the business of acute lawyers to pick holes in these Sections, and they will do it with great ease judging by our experience to-day when the Prime Minister had to throw over his colleagues to our satisfaction, although not to theirs. Our desire is to make these Sections proof against criticism before they are actually passed. The right hon. Gentleman said how unreasonable to say the House of Commons must exercise the jurisdiction provided by this Section—a veto, let us say, over part of this amount, when it does not exercise it over the whole. But that is not my hon. Friend's Amendment. He wants that the House of Commons should have a veto over the whole, and that this power should not exist without limitation in respect of the Joint Exchequer Board. That argument therefore is not pertinent to the Amendment of my hon. Friend. The financial prospects of this Bill are bad enough for the United Kingdom, which will have to provide for the defence of Ireland and the deficit in the accounts, and surely that makes it all the more necessary that it should have its eyes opened during the interval to the legislative effect of the provision that the Treasury will make such payments to the Irish Exchequer as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct. There is no limitation whatever: It does not say any amount or any time.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It says "may make such payments on account of that sum."
  Sir J. D. REES: The sum is nowhere limited in the Bill.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: We are not debating that part of the Bill, but it is limited by the present cost of Irish services.
  Sir J. D. REES: It is too late for the right lion. Gentleman to say that we are not discussing that part of the Bill. If there is any Section which places any limitation on the power of the Joint Exchequer Board I should be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he would refer me to it. If there is not, is it not completely unreasonable, in respect of what is really a temporary accommodation, that this House should confer upon this body, to the appointment of which such doubt attaches and to the composition of which there is such serious objection, powers which are absolutely unlimited? Where is the limitation?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: In Clause 14, Sub-section (2a).
  Sir J. D. REES: Where is it provided that that limitation applies to this Clause? It is not a matter of course that a limitation which may be placed in a particular Section of the Bill necessarily governs the provisions of another Section in which the words are of an unlimited character. I think I understand what the right hon. Gentleman means. He is convinced of the good intentions of the Government and the Joint Exchequer Board and the propriety with which this Bill gives expression to those intentions, but assuming that those intentions are good still, we, have to consider each particular Clause and Sub-section as giving proper expression to those intentions. The right hon. Gentleman has been asked three times and has entirely failed to show that there is any limitation to this Clause. He referred to Clause 14, Sub-section (2a). That deals with the determination of the Transferred Sum. When that Clause was under consideration the right hon. Gentleman said there was nothing in it, that permanent officials will merely supply the Joint Exchequer Board with figures which they will accept as a matter of course. Assuming that to be so there is nothing to show that it is going to be any sum whatever. The latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's argument seemed to me to supply an argument positively in favour of my hon. Friend's Amendment, and I still hope that he will give the Committee
  592
  some valid answer to the very serious objections raised to this Section.
  Mr. JAMES MASON: The question now before the Committee is whether the Treasury or this House is to retain control over the advancement of certain sums on account from the Transferred Sum pending the determination of that sum definitely. The question becomes so much the more important from the fact that this transitory condition is likely to last, with the alterations lately introduced into the Bill, for a much longer period than was at one time contemplated. It is possible that this transitory condition may last something like twenty seven months. Considering this question it is very desirable that we should know when this Joint Exchequer Board is likely to come into existence. It is quite clear that it is not likely to come into existence on the passing of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that obviously the machinery for carrying this Act into operation could not be all set up at once, that the Irish Executive would come first and the Joint Exchequer Board would follow afterwards. The question is how long afterwards? There is no provision whatever to say when this Joint Exchequer Board is to be set up. There is certainly no connection between the date of setting up the Irish Executive and setting up the Joint Exchequer Board, and, for all we know, the Exchequer Board, like so many of the other arrangements under this Bill, is going to have a birth date to itself. The question when it is to come into existence is a very important one, because otherwise you may have a considerable period elapsing between the setting up of the Irish Executive and this Joint Exchequer Board, and the question is, Who is going to authorise payment during that interval? If we are to take what appears to be the meaning of the Section, I should gather that during the interval between the appointment of the Irish Executive and the setting up of the Joint Exchequer Board it is possible that the Treasury might have to go without the advice of the Board.
  Whether that is so or not, it is evidently a matter of some moment, and the question is one on which we ought to have some explanation. What is interesting in the whole of this discussion is to take this proposal in connection with the other proposal which has been made, and to note that during the first twenty-seven months, possibly, after the passing of this Act, the

  593
  Treasury is absolutely to have complete control of the purse, while the Executive, which is to have complete control of the spending of this money, is to be under no control whatever and subject to no questioning in either House in either country. It seems to me that is to put the whole of the power, both of supplying the money and of spending it, in a position totally unparalleled in any Government. You are setting up a body which is to be under no control of any kind by any House of Parliament, and you are taking it away from the control of this House before the other House is in existence, and, therefore, you are to have an Executive which is under no control whatever and subject to no criticism in cither Parliament in regard to its administrative or other Acts. That is a further reason why this House should keep a steady control over both the administration and the supplying of the funds which this Executive has to spend.
  Mr. RONALD M'NEILL: Although the facts which are under discussion here are perhaps somewhat intricate, it appears to me that the point in issue between the two sides of the House is a very simple one. It appears to be admitted by the Government, and admitted on both sides, that there would, at all events, be a period during which payments will be required into the Irish Exchequer, whereas it will not have been determined what actual sums are due to that Exchequer under this Bill. My hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment says that these sums, which it is admitted on all hands must be paid on account, should be under the control of this House, whereas the Government propose in the Bill that they should be under the control of the Joint Exchequer Board. That is a comparatively simple point. In answer to the case made by my hon. Friend, the right hon. Gentleman opposite used a rather dogmatic expression, if I may say so. He said that the obvious course is for the Joint Exchequer Board to authorise payments on account. In other words, it is obvious, according to the right hon. Gentleman, that the course of the Government is a right one, and that the proposal of my hon. Friend is an absurd and unreasonable one. What does the Postmaster-General say in support of the position which he takes up? He said that the functions of the Joint Exchequer Board are to determine what the Transferred Sum will eventually be, and they are to determine that by a calculation—
  594
  Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members being found present——
  Mr. R. M'NEILL: I was just pointing out that the case of the Postmaster-General is that the functions of the Joint Exchequer Board are to determine what the Transferred Sum shall be by calculating, in substance, the present cost of Irish services. He says that because the Joint Exchequer Board have to make a calculation as to the total cost of the Irish services, therefore it is obvious, if the payment on account is to be made, that the proper body to determine what that sum shall be is the Joint Exchequer Board. I entirely fail to follow the reason of the right hon. Gentleman. After all, until you have a whole of some sort, you cannot have a proportion of the whole, and I do not see why the Joint Exchequer Board, until they have made the calculation and know the cost of the Irish services, should be in any better position than any other body to determine what proportion should be paid at any particular time. This House would have as good, and even better, material to go upon than the Joint Exchequer Board. The right hon. Gentleman says that the only part of the Transferred Sum which is to be taken into account for this purpose, and which is set out in Clause 14 (a)—that is to say, such a sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board—would, under this Act, represent the net cost of the Irish services to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom at the time of the passing of this Act. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the second item, the sum of £500,000, which is also to form part of the Transferred Sum, should not be taken into account by the Joint Exchequer Board, or by this House, in determining what sums are to be paid on account? If the right hon. Gentleman accedes to that, then I gather that he was not quite accurate in the observations he made in answer to my hon. Friend when he said it was only the first part.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I did not say "only."
  Mr. R. M'NEILL: Anyhow we have these two items to make up the sum—the cost of the Irish services and the sum of £500,000. What about the third item? I suppose the third item is the taxes imposed by the Irish Parliament in Ireland, I and that, I suppose, obviously cannot

  595
  come into the Transferred Sum during the first year. I would like to know on what date the first payment of the Transferred Sum due from the Imperial Exchequer to the Irish Exchequer is to be made. Is the first payment of the Transferred Sum to be due as from the date of the passing of this Act or from what other date, because it appears to me to be very material from this point of view at what time the first payment is to become due? There is no reason, so far as I understand the varying Amendments which have been put down to these Clauses, making it rather difficult to follow the Bill from day to day, why the passing of the Act on the appointed date for the first meeting of the Irish Parliament, any one of these three crucial dates, should coincide with the beginning of the financial year in Ireland. Therefore it is from that point of view I think exceedingly important for us to know whether the Transferred Sum or any part of it is due, or rather I would like to ask from what date any part of the Transferred Sum is due. Still, that does not really materially affect the point as to whether this House or the Joint Exchequer Board should be the controlling power over the sums that are paid on account, whatever that period may be. I do not think that the Postmaster-General has really shown us any reason against the proposal of my hon. Friend that those sums to be paid on account ought to be under the control of this House. The right hon. Gentleman said that in this particular they were following the Colonial precedent.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Subsection (2).
  Mr. R. McNEILL: I suppose it equally applies, as far as it goes, to Sub-section (1). I understood that the principle the right hon. Gentleman went on was because in Colonial cases we had put in powers enabling the Governor to pay sums on account during an interregnum while a Constitution was being set up. Whether that applies to Sub-section (1) or (2), surely in either case the answer to it is that this House has never had control of the finances of those Colonies and no familiarity with the circumstances, whereas in this case we are dealing with finances with which this House has had to deal with them. The right hon. Gentleman said that the House of Commons could have no knowledge of the subject, but this is
  596
  the body which, from year to year, has had to deal with the Irish Estimates and control the whole of the cost of Irish services and administration of Irish finance. Therefore this is the body which above all others is familiar with the circumstances, and ought to be above all others competent to deal with the arrangements of the financial situation during this interregnum. On the other hand, the Joint Exchequer Board will have no such knowledge, because ex hypothesi before they can determine anything in connection with the finances in this Bill they have to go through the calculation to arrive at the present cost of Irish services, or rather the cost at the passing of the Act. Until they have made that calculation they have no material at their disposal for saying what sums ought to be paid over. The only principle upon which anybody, whether it is this House or the Joint Exchequer Board, can go is to the actual requirements of Irish administration from time to time. I do submit that, having regard to that fact, and also to the principle, which surely ought to guide us in the absence of any other strong controlling reason, that this House is the guardian of the finances of this country, and that this country, until the Irish Constitution is in full working order, should remain not only in control, but responsible for the finances of Irish government, that then we ought to follow that principle, and that the Government should give way a little and accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend and enable this House during that comparatively short period, to maintain its control over the finances of Ireland.
  Mr. HEWINS: I think that the Postmaster-General might perhaps be better able to meet the criticisms of my hon. Friend if, before the end of this Debate, he stated quite clearly and precisely the steps by which the Irish Government will be brought into existence. He began his speech by telling us what was to take place on the full operation of the Act. What we want to know is the money arrangements and the other steps that have to be taken during the time that must elapse before the Act is in full operation. The Postmaster-General will correct me if I am wrong, but I suppose that this Bill will be started by the issue of Orders in Council directing the Lord Lieutenant to take certain steps, and on the instruction of the Ministers here, I presume that preliminary steps will be taken for the setting up of the Government in Ireland. Do we pay for

  597
  that, and if we pay for that is that a deduction which will be made under Clause 43 from the sums afterwards paid over to the Irish Treasury. When we start a new organisation of this kind I venture to say the first and most important question we have to consider is where you are going to get the money, and how you are going to get it for taking the preliminary steps in connection with that organisation. The money is to be charged against the Transferred Sum. We do not know at present when the amount of that Transferred Sum will be ascertained. Clause 43 says "pending the determination of the Transferred Sum." By "determination" does the Postmaster-General mean the presentation of a Report from the Joint Exchequer Board, showing that this or that is the ascertained amount of the Transferred Sum, or does he mean the issue of some Report showing approximately what is the amount of the Transferred Sum, or what does he mean? If he means anything in the nature of a full and accurate determination of the Transferred Sum, then I agree with what was said by one of my hon. Friends, that the period set by this part of the Clause is absolutely indefinite, because under the Clauses we have already discussed there are a great many points, some of which will have to be referred to judicial inquiry to be determined before that can be ascertained; or does the phrase "pending determination" mean, pending the full ascertainment of the Transferred Sum, that there is no limit whatever in this Clause as to the arrangements laid down? I would be grateful to the Postmaster-General if he would say whether that interpretation is correct or not.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not think it arises on this Amendment at all.
  Mr. HEWINS: Surely I may be allowed to develop my argument in my own way. I ask the Postmaster-General a question which I think is very relevant. If he cannot answer it I will pass on. This is to be done by the Joint Exchequer Board, but the Joint Exchequer Board depends on the Irish Treasury. The Irish Treasury unquestionably depends on the starting of the Irish Parliament. You cannot have an Irish Treasury in the Parliamentary sense in which that phrase is always used without responsibility to Parliament, and therefore it comes to this, that you cannot proceed with this preliminary inquiry, which is to settle the question whether this
  598
  Amendment is a desirable Amendment or not, until you have settled this very remarkable question of what steps are to be taken to set going the Act, the very starting of which depends on the completion of these arrangements. I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman means by the setting up of an Irish Treasury merely a departmental body, a bureaucratic body, without responsibility to the Irish Parliament. All those questions are relevant to the point whether we should introduce into this Amendment the phrase suggested by my hon. Friend "made with the sanction of the House of Commons," because, clearly, if my interpretation of this Clause and this Subsection is correct, then the Government are starting a system which I venture to say is without precedent. If there is any principle upon which we have existed in the course of our financial history, it is upon the responsibility of Parliament. I can assume from the silence of the Postmaster-General that he is proposing to set up some office which he calls an Irish Exchequer, but not in the Parliamentary sense an Exchequer. I suppose it is an office w here you will find officials; but who is to sign the cheques, who will be really responsible for the issue of this money?
  It must be remembered in this connection that the time during which this defective arrangement may hold is absolutely indefinite. It is pending the determination by the Exchequer Board to what is the Transferred Sum. During all that time, unless there is some provision like that suggested by my hon. Friend, you may have those large payments made by the British Treasury to be debited against a sum which we have not ascertained and which is to be expended and devoted to purposes we know nothing about and that without any Parliamentary criticism, I cannot conceive anything more revolutionary from the English point of view. It is the bounden duty of the Government to tell us the terms upon which and what are the steps by which they propose to set up an Irish Parliament. Why have they not issued a memorandum; why do they throw down this confused Bill? I think we never had a more melancholy exhibition of ignorance and incapacity than we have had this afternoon; they do not know what is the meaning of a phrase in it; they cannot tell us who are to decide upon the expenditure of this vast sum of money without Parliamentary control or criticism merely on the ipse dixit of

  599
  Government officers. It is certainly foreign to our Parliamentary system and I entreat the Government out of mere courtesy, if nothing else, to tell us what are the precise steps the Government propose to take; what is the order and what are the relative dates, in setting up an Irish Government. Then we shall know where we are. In any case it is perfectly clear that there must be a long period during which there will be no opportunity whatever for Parliamentary criticism or control, and that shows we have a right to ask them to introduce some provision such as that suggested by my hon. Friend.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I am sorry I cannot respond to the appeal which the hen. Member addresses to me. He says that out of courtesy I ought to do so. I should like to do so, but I am afraid that if I were to enter into the matters to which he has referred I would be immediately ruled out of order. The sole question before the Committee is whether or not the Vote on Account to be paid to the new authority is to be sanctioned by the Exchequer Board or by the House of Commons.
  Mr. CASSEL: The more I look at this Clause, the more I am astounded to discover how little the Government understand their own Bill. They have labelled this Clause in the margin as "temporary," but do they think it is temporary? I say it is permanent. I will deal with the first ascertainment of the Transferred Sum. I will show subsequently that the question of ascertainment in future is also covered by this Clause. With reference to ascertainment, in the first place you must know clearly what are Irish services. That is a most difficult question of law. We have inserted a provision that such questions may be referred to the Privy Council. You must, in the first place, ascertain what is the Transferred Sum, but in order to do that you have to go to the Privy Council to ascertain what are Irish services. There will be a number of points upon which the Exchequer Board will have bonâ fide doubt, and they will go to the Privy Council. How long will it take the Privy Council to decide? They have got some other business to do besides dealing with the numerous questions arising from the Clauses of this Bill, and it may be a year or two before the preliminary matters are ascertained upon which this calculation depends. That is the first year, but then there are the subsequent years. The Gov-
  600
  ernment seem to be of opinion that once you have ascertained the Transferred Sum you have a constant quantity. If that is their opinion, they do not understand their own Bill, because in subsequent years, whenever the Irish Parliament reduces the Imperial taxes, you have a most difficult calculation to make, depending upon legal and other considerations, as to what is the amount which is to be deducted from the original Transferred Sum in order to find the Transferred Sum for that year. And again, whenever the Irish Parliament increases the Imperial taxes, you have got a process which almost defies calculation in order to arrive at the Transferred Sum of that year. Therefore the question of determining the Transferred Sum is not a temporary provision, as it is labelled in this Bill, but is a provision lasting for ever and ever—lasting a long time after the Irish Parliament is set up and after it is in complete working order. If the Government think it is a temporary matter, they have again misunderstood, as they have from start to finish, the provisions of their own Bill. The Postmaster-General says he cannot give an explanation because it would be out of order, but it would not be out of order for him to give an explanation of why this is labelled a temporary provision; whereas I have shown that it is absolutely permanent.
  These payments are to be made by the British Treasury, but they are not obligatory; they are at the discretion of the British Treasury. That discretion should not be left to the Treasury, but should be under the control of this House. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman this question, Is there any other matter upon which the British Treasury exercises its discretion which is not in the control of this House? If he can cite a precedent of that kind, he may be able to cite some precedent for the proposal in this Bill. The proposal here gives discretion for all time. It is not temporary: it is permanent and perpetual; and I say that either the Imperial Parliament or the Irish Parliament should exercise control. Moreover, there arises now the old question which we were discussing before, as to whether you can set up a Joint Exchequer Board before the Irish Parliament. I agree that we have already discussed that question this afternoon, but it seems to me a very difficult question of construction depending upon Clause 4, as to whether under Clause 4 you can create an Irish Department without

  601
  an Irish Act of Parliament. It depends upon the words "subject thereto, by the Lord Lieutenant." Whether that means that the Lord Lieutenant can set up a Treasury without Parliament is a very difficult point of construction. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman is right, that the Lord Lieutenant can set up a Department without an Irish Act of Parliament. Whether that be so or not, I think my hon. Friend was justified in asking some explanation of it, and an explanation relevant to this Amendment, because we are in the Amendment asking how the provision is going to work. If you cannot set up an Exchequer Board before you set up an Irish Parliament then the whole of this provision becomes unworkable for the interim period, because it is intended to be practically for the interim period, and until you have a Parliament. It goes much further than that as a matter of fact! If during the interim period you cannot set up an Irish Treasury what becomes of the whole of this provision? I agree that it is a difficult question of the construction of Clause 4, which like so many of the provisions of this Bill is worded in unnecessarily obscure language on a point vital to the whole Bill. I must say I really think that the Government ought to have treated the House a little better than they have in introducing Clauses in undigested language difficult to understand.
  10.0 P.M.
  Two or three points I should like to ask an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman on, or perhaps the Irish Secretary will be able to enlighten me? The first is as to whether this is really a temporary provision, or is it a permanent one? In the first place, it seems to me it may take a very long time for the ascertainment even of the first year. You have not got an end of it then, because you have to have the determination of the Transferred Sum for subsequent years. Whenever the Irish Parliament either reduces Imperial taxation or increases it, or whenever there is a transferred service, you will have the question of determination arising. In the case of the constabulary it clearly arises not less than six years after the passing of the Act or the appointed day. There, again, you will have a question of determination of the Transferred Sum within the full period after the Irish Parliament is established, and when the whole thing is in working order you will have still this extraordinary provision that the British Treasury, not
  602
  controlled by the British House of Commons, and not controlled by the Irish House of Commons, but by this body, will have this power. My second point is, if the British Treasury has a discretion in this matter, why on earth should not the House of Commons have a right of controlling that discretion of the Treasury? The third point I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman is as to the determination of the first year that this Trans f erred Sum becomes payable. It is calculated as at the passing of the Act. From start to finish of this Bill there is not a single word or syllable which can make it clear as from what date this £6,000,000 per year starts. That is a vital and important point, because they may begin, to pay the £6,000,000 a year or fifteen months later, and that makes a very important difference from the point of view of the British Treasury. Before we put this outside the control of the House of Commons we ought to have some clear explanation from the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Three questions have been put to me by the hon. and learned Gentleman, and perhaps it is only courteous that I should reply. This Clause is temporary in its character, and only for the first year. After the first, year Clause 17, Sub-section (1), will apply. This enables the Transferred Sum to be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct. It is only a necessary provision to deal with the case of the first year when no Transferred Sum has been determined at all. As regards the discretion of the Imperial Treasury, the hon. and learned Gentleman knows as well as anyone in the House that the word "may" in Acts of Parliament mean "shall" in the proper case. Where the Exchequer Board determines to pay over an amount the Treasury will pay that sum as a consequence, unless there should be a valid and obvious reason to the contrary. As to the third point, the date when the Transferred Sum will be payable—from what date will the cost of the Irish services begin to run? It will be from the time of the appointed day as fixed when the Irish services are transferred to the control of the Irish Parliament. The Transferred Sum will be payable from that date.
  Mr. CASSEL: With reference to the answer on the first point, Clause 17 does not seem to me to touch it at all, and

  603
  Clause 43 is absolutely general, in any case where you have the determination, still certain payments on account are to be made as provided by Clause 43, not as provided by Clause 17. There are no words whatever in Clause 43 which limit that Clause to ascertaining the first ascertainment of the Transferred Sum.
  Sir J. D. REES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has discovered any limitation of the amount?
  Question put, "That those words be-there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 286.

  Division No. 420.]

  AYES.

  [10.5 p.m.

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goulding Edward Alfred

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Barnston, Harry

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Bird, Alfred

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boyton, James

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Butcher, John George

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Cassel, Felix

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Chambers, James

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  MacCaw, Win. J. MacGeagh

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Eyres-Monscll, Bolton M.

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Younger, Sir George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Fell and Sir J. D. Rees.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Adamson, William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Duffy, William J.

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Clough, William

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Barnes, G. N.

  Clynes, John R.

  Falconer, James

  Barton, William

  Collins, G. P. Greenock)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Bentham, G. J.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Field, William

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Crean, Eugene

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Black, Arthur W

  Crooks, William

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Boland, John Pius

  Crumley, Patrick

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Cullinan, John

  Gilhooly, James

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gill, A. H.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Brace, William

  Dawes, J. A.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  De Forest, Baron

  Glanville, H. J.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Delany, William

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Goldstone, Frank

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Devlin, Joseph

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  M'Kean, John

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Guiney, Patrick

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Gulland, John William

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Hackett, John

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Martin, Joseph

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hancock, J. G.

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Rowlands, James

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Meagher, Michael

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Molloy, Michael

  Sheeny, David

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Shortt, Edward

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mooney, John J.

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Morrell, Philip

  Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Muldoon, John

  Snowden, Philip

  Hazleton, Richard

  Munro, R.

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  Nannetti, Joseph p.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Nolan, Joseph

  Sutton, John E.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hinds, John

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomas, James Henry

  Hodge, John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Trevelyan, Charles philips

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Dowd, John

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Ogden, Fred

  Wadsworth, J.

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  O'Grady, James

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Malley, William

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wardle, George J.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Shee, James John

  Waring, Walter

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Jowett, F. W.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Keating, Matthew

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pointer, Joseph

  Wiles, Thomas

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Leach, Charles

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Radford, G. H.

  Winfrey, Richard

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Wood, Rt Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Younfl, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Redmond, Wlillam (Clare, E.)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  McGhee, Richard

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Richards, Thomas

  Geoffrey Howard and Mr. Webb.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Mr. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "payments" ["the Treasury may make such payments on account"], to insert the words "not exceeding the sum of £1,000,000." The Clause would then read:
  "Pending the determination of the Transferred Sums by the Joint Exchequer Board, the Treasury may make such payments 'not exceeding the sum of
  606
  one million pounds' on account of that sum into the Irish Exchequer as the-Joint Exchequer Board may direct."
  From the speech the Postmaster-General made a while ago I am rather inclined to think he will accept this Amendment, because he said that the amount which will be paid on account by the Treasury to the Irish Exchequer will be a moderate sum, and I think he said that it would be two,

  607
  three, or four months' amount on account. If that is so, the sum of £1,000,000 is a very substantial provision to make, and I hope it will not exceed it. The amount of the Transferred Sum, of course, will not then be ascertained, but I wish to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the estimate, according to the White Paper of the Government, is £6,100,000 a year. But certain deductions are to be made from that, and when these deductions are made I fear the Irish Exchequer will find that, instead of £6,100,000, the amount will be a good deal less. There are certain contingent liabilities to come off that sum. For instance, there is £25,000 a year towards the salary of the Lord Lieutenant; there are the salaries and pensions of all existing judges and Civil servants under Clause 32, and then there is the superannuation for existing Irish unestablisbed Civil servants under Clause 33. These two sums alone will come to £400,000. Therefore that is a substantial sum which ought to be taken into account when we have to calculate upon what is a reasonable sum to be paid on account. The sum I take in my Amendment is £1,000,000. The date when the Transferred Sum will be ascertained and paid, as we have heard this afternoon, is an uncertain one. The Postmaster-General said this is a temporary provision only applicable to the first year. Yes, but the Government have no guarantee, and we heard this afternoon that it is quite possible under the Government Amendment to postpone it to twenty-seven months after the passing of the Act. If that is so, this temporary provision for payment on account to the Irish Treasury would have to be extended to that period. I hope, therefore, the Postmaster-General will see his way to accept this Amendment.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Remembering our experience when the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) proposed a limitation upon the amount of money which may be spent under this Bill, I am disposed to treat this Amendment with some respect. The result, however, of the last Division gives me a confidence which in other circumstances I should not feel. I am afraid I must disappoint hon. Members who expect me to accept this Amendment by saying that the Government do not see their way to do so. It is not anticipated that there is any very great probability of a large sum of money being required on account,
  608
  but embarrassment might be caused in the initiation of the new scheme if any rigid limit were introduced which might not meet the circumstances of the case. The Transferred Sum is expected to be about £6,000,000, and although there are certain deductions they are not expected to amount to more in all than £380,000 at the outside, and as the Transferred Sum previous to the deductions will be rather more than £6,000,000 it would only be a little less than £6,000,000 after the deductions have been made. If the Executive has to be set up before the legislature, and if it has control over Irish services for which the money has to be found, it might be a month or two before the Irish Parliament could meet and deal with the matter, and after the Irish Parliament did meet it might be some weeks further before the Appropriation Act could be passed. It is desirable, therefore, to allow some little latitude in this respect. The sum of £1,000,000, which is all the hon. Member would allow by his Amendment, is an amount which would carry on the Irish Government for a period of two months only.
  Mr. S. ROBERTS: That was the period which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned himself in his speech.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. Member quoted me as saying two, three, or four months. This Amendment would tie me down to the lowest possible period, and the result might be grave inconvenience and indeed financial deadlock might arise if such an Amendment as this were inserted in the Bill. There can be no danger in leaving the matter without this limitation, because a sum is taken on account of the Transferred Sum, and it will not be more than the Transferred Sum authorised by the Act. As the Act distinctly lays down what the Transferred Sum is to be, the Joint Exchequer Board could not possibly overstep the limit laid down by the Act. For these reasons I trust the Committee will not accept the Amendment.
  Mr. FELL: The right hon. Gentleman has overlooked one or two considerations when he says that the £1,000,000 would not be sufficient. He has forgotten that the Post Office revenue comes in practically from the first day, and that would be received by the Irish Executive in addition to this £1,000,000. Then, again, there will be stamp receipts in Ireland from the very first, and under those circumstances it is

  609
  clear that the £1,000,000 will not be the only sum which the Joint Exchequer Board will have power to deal with. In view of these considerations I say that this Amendment is a reasonable proposal.
  Sir J. D. REES: When speaking on the last Amendment, I asked the right hon. Gentleman to indicate what limit there was to the payments which the Joint Exchequer Board might direct the Treasury to pay into the Irish Exchequer. He said he could not indicate any such amount, but he seemed to argue there was some understanding they would be small. Now a specific Amendment is put to him, limiting the amount to £1,000,000, he says he cannot accept it. It is perfectly obvious the right hon. Gentleman will not have any limitation whatever imposed on the amount. He himself said the word "may" in certain circumstances means "shall." He says a word that is permissive may in certain circumstances be interpreted to be imperative. I have always understood those words in Statutes were certainly not exchangeable, and that the word "may" was permissive, and could not be construed in the sense of "shall." One thing, at any rate, is perfectly clear. The Government mean that there shall be no limit to the amount which the Joint Exchequer Board may direct the British Treasury to pay into the Irish Exchequer. I pressed him upon this point on the last Amendment. I think he evaded it, but now he is brought to book
  it is perfectly clear the Government object to any safeguard whatsoever being imposed upon the expenditure during what he calls the transitional period. This is quite in accordance with the whole conduct of the Government in dealing with public money. The right hon. Gentleman says this is a transitional period. I dispute that. Nothing is so permanent as a temporary arrangement. That is the invariable experience of every official arrangement. When an arrangement is temporary it hardens into something that is the reverse of temporary, and it becomes permanent. He showed by referring to a previous Section that this could never last for one year. That is by no means clear. It seems to me perfectly clear it might last for some months in excess of one year. What can be the objection to accepting such a limitation? I see nothing to prevent the demands under this Sub-section amounting to the whole £6,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman said only a small proportion of that amount would be demanded. If the arrangement is really a temporary and transitory one, I submit the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to accept this arrangement. It is because he knows it is not so, he is determined not to accept it.
  Question put, "That these words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes,177; Noes, 316.

  Division No. 421.]

  AYES.

  [10.25 p.m.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Cassel, Felix

  Gardner, Ernest

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cator, John

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cave, George

  Goldman, Charles Sydney

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Cecil, Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Barnston, H.

  Chambers, James

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Barrie, H. T.

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Gretton, John

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Gloucs., E.)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Bird, Alfred

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Blair, Reginald

  Doughty, Sir George

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Boyton, James

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Fell, Arthur

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Hills, John Waller (Durham)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Butcher, John George

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Terrell, George (Wilts., N. W.)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Tobis, Alfred Aspinall

  Kerry, Earl of

  Pollock, E. M.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rolleston, sir J.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Winterton, Earl

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Macmastcr, Donald

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  M'Neiil, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, w.)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Malcolm, Ian

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Stanier, Beville

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Younger, Sir George

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Mount, William Arthur

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Swift, Rigby

  John Gordon (Londonderry) and Mr. S. Roberts.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick (Dorset, E.)

  Adamson, William

  Cotton, William Francis

  Guiney, Patrick

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Crean, Eugene

  Gulland, John William

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Crooks, William

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hackett, John

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Cullinan, John

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hancock, J. G.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  De Forest, Baron

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Delany, William

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Harvey, T E. (Leeds, W.)

  Barton, William

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Doris, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Duffy, William

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Bentham, G. J

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Hayward, Evan

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Boland, John Pius

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S)

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Falconer, James

  Higham, John Sharp

  Brace, William

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Hinds, John

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. C. E. H.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Hodge, John

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Hogge, James Myles

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Field, William

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  France, G. A.

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Gilhooly, James

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Gill, Alfred Henry

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  John, Edward Thomas

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Glanville, Harold James

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Clough, William

  Goldstone, Frank

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Clynes, John R.

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Jowett, Frederick William

  612

  613

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B.

  Keating, Matthew

  O'Doherly, Philip

  Sheehy, David

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Dowd, John

  Shortt, Edward

  Kilbride, Denis

  Ogden, Fred

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  King, Joseph

  O'Grady, James

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Smyth, Thomas F.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  O'Malley, William

  Snowden, Philip

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  O'Shee, James John

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.)

  Leach, Charles

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Sutherland, John E.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Sutton, John E.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham)

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  McGhee, Richard

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Verney, Sir Harry

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Wadsworth, J.

  M'Kean, John

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Radford, George Heynes

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Manfield, Harry

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Wardle, George J.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Waring, Walter

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Reddy, Michael

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Martin, Joseph

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Meagher, Michael

  Rendall, Athelstan

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Meehan, Francis E (Leitrim, N.)

  Richards, Thomas

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Whyte, Alexander F.

  Molloy, Michael

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Mooney, John J.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Morrell, Philip

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Morten, Alpheus Cleophas

  Robinson, Sidney

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Muldoon, John

  Roch, Walter F.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Munro, Robert

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Winfrey, Richard

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Rowlands, James

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Geoffrey Howard and Mr. Webb.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  It being after half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the
  business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the clock at this day's sitting.
  Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided; Ayes, 319; Noes, 191.

  CLAUSE 44.—(Power to make Adaptation, etc., by Order in Council.)
  (1) His Majesty may make Orders in Council for the purpose of the transitory provisions of this Act, and may, by any such Order, make or direct to be made such arrangements as seem necessary or proper for setting in motion the Irish Parliament and Government, and also for any other matter for which it seems to His Majesty necessary or proper to make provision for the purpose of bringing this Act into full operation or for giving full effect to the future transfer under or by virtue of this Act of a reserved service; and in particular His Majesty may by any such Order in Council—

  (a) make such adaptations of any enactments so far as they relate to Ireland as may appear to him necessary or proper in order to give effect to the provisions of this Act, and also make any adaptations of any enactments so far as they relate to England or Scotland, as may appear to him necessary or proper as a consequence of any change effected by the provisions of this Act; and

  (b) make such adaptation of any enactments as appear to him necessary or proper with respect to the execution of the reserved services, and in particular provide for the exercise or performance of any powers or duties in connection with those services by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom or officer of that Government where any such powers or duties are, under any existing Act, to be exercised or performed by any Department in Ire-which will cease to exist as a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom; and

  (c) make regulations with respect to the relations of the Irish and British Post Offices, and in particular may provide for an apportionment of the capital liabilities of the Post Office between the Irish Exchequer and the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, and for apportioning any receipts and expenses in respect of foreign mails or other foreign postal services (including telegrams and telephones), between the two Post Offices, and for facilities being given in respect of postal services generally by the one Post Office to the other, especially in relation to
  620
  submarine telegraphs or telegraphic communication with any place out of the United Kingdom; and

  (d) on any transfer under this Act of the public services in connection with the administration of the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 and 1011, make provision for securing the payment of an old age pension to any person who is entitled to the payment of such a pension at the time of the transfer, while he continues so entitled; and

  (e) on the transfer under this Act of public services in connection with Post Office Savings Banks, or Trustee Savings Banks, make provisions for giving a depositor in any transferred Post Office Savings Bank the right to repayment of any sums due to him in respect of his deposits at the time of the transfer, and for giving the trustees of any Trustee Savings Bank in Ireland the right to close their bank and to require repayment of all sums due to them from the National Debt Commissioners, and for securing to the holder of any annuity or policy of insurance granted before the date of the transfer by a Post Office or Trustee Savings Bank the payment of the annuity or of any sums due under the policy; and

  (f) make provision with respect to the transfer and apportionment of any property, rights, and liabilities in connection with Irish services; and

  (g) provide, in cases where the same Act deals with reserved matters and with other matters, for specifying the matters dealt with by the Act which are to be treated in accordance with this Act as reserved matters.

  Government Amendment:
  To leave out in Sub-section (1), the words "make Orders in Council for the purpose of the transitory provisions of this Act, and may, by any such Order, make or direct to be made, such arrangements," and to insert thereof the words, "by Orders in Council (in this Act referred to as Irish Transfer Orders), make such regulations."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 321; Noes, 197.

  Division No. 422.

  AYES.

  [10.35 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Barton, W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Arnold, Sydney

  Beaie, Sir W. phipson

  Adamson, William

  Baker, Harold T, (Accrington)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. George)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Barnes, George N.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Black, Arthur W.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Boland, John Pius

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Nannetti, Joseph

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Brace, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Brady, P. J.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Hayward, Evan

  Nuttall, Harry

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Doherty Philip

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Herbert, Colonel Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Dowd, John

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Ogden, Fred

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Hinds, John

  O'Grady, James

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Hodge, John

  O'Malley, William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Clough, William

  Helmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Clynes, John R.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Shee, James John

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Crooks, William

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsire)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Price, C. E. (Edinbirgh, Central)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Keating, Matthew

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B (Bradford, E.)

  Delany, William

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Radford, G. H.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Dickinson, W. H.

  King, Joseph

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Doris, W.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Reddy, Michael

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Leach, Charles

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richards, Thomas

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lundon, T.

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Falconer, J.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  McGhee, Richard

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Field, William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Robinson, Sidney

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roch, Walter F.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Reche, Augustine (Louth)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  France, G. A.

  M'Kean, John

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rowlands, James

  Gllhooly, James

  M-Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Manfield, Harry

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland]

  Glanville, H. J.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Scanian, Thomas

  Goldstone, Frank

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Martin, J.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Sheehy, David

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Meagher, Michael

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Shortt, Edward

  Guiney, P.

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Gulland, John William

  Millar, James Duncan

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Molloy, M.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Hackett, J.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Snowden, P.

  Hall, F. (Normanton)

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hancock, J. G.

  Mooney, J. J.

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Muldoon, John

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Munro, R.

  Sutton, John E.

  616

  617

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wardle, George J.

  Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Waring, Walter

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Thomas, J. H.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worc, N.)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E, (Clackmannan)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Verney, Sir Harry

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Geoffrey Howard and Mr. Webb.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Wilkie, Alexander

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Goldman, Charles Sydney

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Anson, Rt. Hon Sir William R.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, W. R.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Barnstone, Harry

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Rawlinson, J. F. P.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hamersley, A. St. George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bird, A.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Blair, Reginald

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Boyton, J.

  Hills, John Waller

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Stanier, Beville

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, Major J. A. Midlothian)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Starkey, John R.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cassel, Felix

  Hunt, Rowland

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Castlereagh, viscount

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Swift, Rigby

  Cator, John

  Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Cave, George

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Chambers, J.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Clyde, J. Avon

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Doughty, Sir George

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Eyres-Mansell, Bolton M.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Winterton, Earl

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Fell, Arthur

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Middlemore, J. T.

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fitzroy, Hon. E. A.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Younger, Sir George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Mount and Mr. J. E. Gordon(Brighton).

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Division No. 423.]

  AYES.

  [10.45 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Lynch, A. A.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Adamson, William

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Field, William

  McGhee, Richard

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Macveagh, Jeremiah

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Kean, John

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Gill, A. H.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Gladstone. W. G. C.

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Glanville, H. J.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Manfield, Harry

  Barnes, George N.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Barton, William

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Martin, J.

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Gulland, John William

  Meagher, Michael

  Bethel!, Sir John Henry

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hackett, J

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Boland, John Pius

  Hancock, John George

  Molloy, Michael

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Mooney, John J.

  Brace, William

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Morrell, Philip

  Brady, P. J.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Muldoon, John

  Brunner, J. F. L.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Munro, R.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C-

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Havelock-Allan. Sir Henry

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hayward, Evan

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Nuttall, Harry

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Clough, William

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Clynes, John R.

  Hinds, John

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Dowd, John

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hodge, John

  Ogden, Fred

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Grady, James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Malley, William

  Cotton, William Francis

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Crean, Eugene

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Shee, James John

  Crooks, William

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Cullman, John

  John, Edward Thomas

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  De Forest, Baron

  Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Delany, William

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pointer, Joseph

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Joyce, Michael

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Keating, Matthew

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Power, Patrick, Joseph

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Doris, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Duffy, William J.

  King, J.

  Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Duncan, J, Hastings. (Yorks, Otley)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Radford, G. H.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Leach, Charles

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Reddy, M.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Falconer, James

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Lundon, T.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  622

  623

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Waring, Walter

  Richards, Thomas

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Snowden, Philip

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Roberts, Charles N. (Lincoln)

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  White. J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradlord)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Sutton, John E.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Robinson, Sidney

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Thomas, James Henry

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Rowlands, James

  Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Tolumin, Sir George

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Ure, Rt. Hon Alexander

  Winfrey, Richard

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Wadsworth, J.

  Young, Samuel Cavan, E.)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Sheehy, David

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Mr. Webb.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Shortt, Edward

  Wardle, George J.

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Falle, B. G.

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Fell, Arthur

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Ashley W. W.

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Gardner, Ernest

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Barnston, Harry

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Gilmour, Captain John

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Grant, J. A.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Bird, A.

  Greene, W. R.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Blair, Reginald

  Gretton, John

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Boles, Lieut-Col. Dennis Forteseue

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Boyton, James

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of wight)

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Butcher, John George

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington S.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Cassel, Felix

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

  Cator, John

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Cautley, H. S.

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Cave, George

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hills, John Waller

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Chambers, James

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Royds, Edmund

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thapet)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Kerry, Earl of

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Stanier, Beville

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  624

  625

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Winterton, Earl

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Touche, George Alexander

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Swift, Rigby

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Younger, Sir George

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Weigall, Captain A. G.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Francis Lowe and Colonel Hickman.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Thynne, Lord A,

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "the" ["to the future transfer"], and insert instead thereof the words, "any provision of this Act or to any."
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 318; Noes, 198.

  Division No. 424.]

  AYES.

  [10.58 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hayward, Evan

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Adamson, William

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Dawes, J. A.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  De Forest, Baron

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Delany, William

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Arnold, Sydney

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hinds, John

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hodge, John

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Doris, W.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Duffy, William J.

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Barnes, George N.

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Barton, William

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  John, Edward Thomas

  Bethell, Sir John Henry

  Falconer, J.

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Boland, John Pius

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Ffrench, Peter

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Field, William

  Jones, William S. Glyn (Stepney)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Brace, William

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Joyce, Michael

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Keating, Matthew

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  France, G. A.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Brunner, John F. L.

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Bryce, John Annan

  Gill, Alfred Henry

  Kilbride, Denis

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Ginnell, Laurence

  King, J.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rtd, Cockerm'th)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Leach, Charles

  Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Chancellor, H. G

  Guiney, Patrick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Chapple, Dr. W. A.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hackett, John

  Lundon, Thomas

  Clough, William

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Clynes, John R.

  Hancock, John George

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  McGhee, Richard

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Macpherson, James fan

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  M'Kean, John

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Crean, Eugene

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Crooks, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. Lines, Spalding)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Cullinan, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Manfield, Harry

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Sutherland, John E.

  Martin, Joseph

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Sutton, John E.

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon, C. F. G.

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Meagher, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Radford, G. H.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Raffan, Peter Wilsen

  Thomas, James Henry

  Millar, James Duncan

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Molloy, Michael

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Reddy, M.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Mocney, John J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Morrell, Philip

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Wadsworth, John

  Muldoon, John

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Munro, Robert

  Richards, Thomas

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Nannetti, Joseph p.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Needham, Christopher

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Wardle, G. J.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Waring, Walter

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Wason, John (Cathcart, Orkney)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Robinson, Sidney

  Watt, Henry A.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Webb, H.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Wedgwood, Josiah

  O'Connor, John (Kildare)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, J. Dundas (Tradeston)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  White, Patrick Meoth, North)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Rowlands, James

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Whyte, Alexander F.

  Ogden, Fred

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. W.

  Wiles, Thomas

  O'Grady, James

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  O'Malley, William

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  O'Shee, James John

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Wores., N.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Sheehy, David

  Winfrey, Richard

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Shortt, Edward

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Snowden, Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Pointer, Joseph

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  NOES.

  Cassel, Felix

  Gardner, Ernest

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Cator, John

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cave, George

  Goldman, Charles Sydney

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Gordon, John (Londonderry (South)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Chambers, James

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Grant, James Augustus

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Clyde, James Avon

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Barnston, Harry

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Gretton, John

  Barrie, H. T.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Craig, Norman (Kent (Thanet)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Croft, Henry Page

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Bird, Alfred

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Blair, Reginald

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Faber, George D. (Clapham)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Boyton, James

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Fell, Arthur

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Butcher, John George

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Hills, John Waller

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  628

  629

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Stewart, Gershom

  Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Swift, Rigby

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

  Peel, Capt. R. F.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Lane-Fox, G, R.

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H

  Ward, A. s. (Herts, Watford)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

  Royds, Edmund

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.)

  Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Sanders, Robert

  Wcrthington-Evans, L.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Malcolm, Ian

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Younger, Sir George

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanier, Beville

  Mills, Han. Cnarles Thomas

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormsklrk)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hicks Beach and Mr. Tryon.

  Morrison-Bell, E. F. (Ashburton)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "and for apportioning any receipts and expenses in respect of foreign mails or other foreign postal services (including telegrams and telephones), between the two Post Offices, and for facilities being given in respect of postal services generally by the one Post Office to the other, especially in relation to submarine telegraphs or telegraphic communication with any place out of the United Kingdom," and insert instead thereof the words,
  "for the execution of postal services by the one Post Office at the request of and on behalf of the other, and for the terms and conditions under which the services are to be so executed, for facilities being given in connection with any such postal
  services at the request of one Post Office by the other, for requiring the sanction of the British Post Office for the grant of any licence by the Irish Post Office for wireless telegraphy stations for internal communications in Ireland, and for the reservation of power to His Majesty by Order in Council to transfer in time of war or National emergency the powers or duties of the Irish Post Office to the British Post Office, or to the naval or military authorities of the United Kingdom." — [Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 188.

  Division No. 425.]

  AYES.

  [11.9 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Barton, William

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Adamson, William

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bird, A.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Boland, John Pius

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich>

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, El

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Brace, William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Clough, William

  Barnes, G. N.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Clynes, John R.

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  John, Edward Thomas

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Crooks, William

  Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Cullinan, John

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Keating, Matthew

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Radford, G. H.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kilbride, Dennis

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Dawes, J. A.

  King, J.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  De Forest, Baron

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Delany, William

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Roddy, Michael

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Leach, Charles

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Doris, William

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richards, Thomas

  Duffy, William J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  McGhee, Richard

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Robinson, Sidney

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Falconer, James

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rowlands, James

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Waiter

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Manfield, Harry

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Gill, Alfred Henry

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Ginnell, L.

  Martin, Joseph

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Sheehy, David

  Glanville, Harold James

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Meagher, Michael

  Shortt, Edward

  Goldstone, Frank

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Millar, James Duncan

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Molloy, Michael

  Snowden, Philip

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gulney, Patrick

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Hackett, J.

  Morrell, Philip

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Sutton, John E.

  Hancock, John George

  Muldoon, John

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Munro, Robert

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, James Henry

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Nuttall, Harry

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wadsworth, John

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Healy, Timothy (Hichael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Helme, Sir Nerval Watson

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Ogden, Fred

  Waring, Walter

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Grady, James

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., South)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Malley, William

  Webb, H.

  Hinds, John

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Hodge, John

  O'Shee, James John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Whyte, A. F.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Wiles, Thomas

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  632

  633

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  NOES.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Royds, Edmund

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hickham, Colonel Thomas E.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffiths-

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hills, John Waller

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hope, Harry (Bute)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanier, Beville

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward M.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Cassel, Felix

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cator, John

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cave, George

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Swift, Rigby

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Chambers, J.

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Law, Rt. Hon. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Locker-Lampson, Sir G. (Salisbury)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Croft, H. P.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Weigall, Captain A. G.

  Doughty, Sir George

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Faber, George D. (Clapham)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Fell, Arthur

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Newdegate, F. A,

  Younger, Sir George

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Douglas Hall and Col. Boles.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided.
  Sir F. BANBURY(seated and covered): May I call attention to the fact that one of the Tellers left the door before all the Members in his Lobby had passed through?
  The CHAIRMAN: Did the Tellers not leave together?
  Sir F. BANBURY(seated and covered): No one remained at the door.
  Mr. HAROLD SMITH(seated and covered): May I draw your attention to the

  635
  fact that at least fifteen Members were shut out from the division through this misunderstanding?
  The CHAIRMAN: Are the Tellers agreed that the numbers should be added.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Illingworth)(seated and covered): The hon. Member for Darlington told me "all out," whereupon I left the door. I am quite willing if any Members are aggrieved and did not record
  their votes that their names should be added to the list.
  Mr. PIKE PEASE(seated and covered): The statement of the Patronage Secretary is correct. I said "all out," thinking that all the hon. Members had gone through.
  The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member claim a fresh division.
  Mr. PIKE PEASE(seated and covered): No Sir.
  Ayes, 305; Noes, 190.

  Division No. 426.]

  AYES.

  [11.20 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Adamson, William

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Doris, W.

  Hughes, S. L.

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Duffy, William J.

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Balfour, sir Robert (Lanark)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Joyce, Michael

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Falconer, J.

  Keating, Matthew

  Barnes, G. N.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Barton, W.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Kilbride, Denis

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Ffrench, Peter

  King, J.

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Field, William

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Bentham, G J.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Black, Arthur W.

  France, G. A.

  Lawson, Sir w. (Cumb'rld, Cockarm'th)

  Boland, John Plus

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Leach, Charles

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Gill, A. H.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Ginnell, L.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Boyle, O. (Mayo, N.)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Brace, William

  Glanville, Harold James

  Lundon, Thomas

  Brady, P. J.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Lynch, A. A.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  McGhee, Richard

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Guiney, P.

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hackett, J.

  M'Kean, John

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwick)

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Hancock, John George

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hardle, J. Keir

  Manfield, Harry

  Clough, William

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Clynes, John R.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Martin, Joseph

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Meagher, Michael

  Cotton, William Francis

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Millar, James Duncan

  Crean, Eugene

  Hayward, Evan

  Molloy, M.

  Crooks, William

  Hazleton, Richard

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Crumley, Patrick

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Cullinan, J.

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon, Sir J. H. (Kirkcaid)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Morrell, Philip

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mcn., S.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hlgham, John Sharp

  Muldoon, John

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Hinds, John

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C.

  De Forest, Baron

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Munro, R.

  Delany, William

  Hodge, John

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Sutton, John E.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Reddy, M.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Nuttall, Harry

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Richards, Thomas

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  O'Grady, James

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Ogden, Fred

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  O'Malley, William

  Robinson, Sidney

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Roch, Walter F.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Waring, Walter

  O'Shee, James John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Watt, Henry A.

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Rowlands, James

  Webb, H.

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Rowntree, Arnold

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas p.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon, H. L. (Cleveland)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Philips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Sheehy, David

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Shortt, Edward

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Winfrey, Richard

  Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Snowden, Philip

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Radford, G. H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Baird, J. L.

  Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hills, John Waller

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Croft, H. P.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Barnston, Harry

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Barrie, H. T.

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Hunt, Rowland

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Fell, Arthur

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Kerry, Earl of

  Beresford, Lord C

  Gardner, Ernest

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Bird, A.

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Blair, Reginald

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Boles, Lieut-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Goldman, C. S.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Greene, W. R.

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Gretton, John

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Cassel, Felix

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Cator, John

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Cautley, H. S.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Cave, George

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Chambers, J.

  Hamilton, Marquess, of (Londonderry)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  638

  639

  Mount, William Arthur

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Stanier, Beville

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Swift, Rigby

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutstord)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Rawson, Lt. Col. R. H.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Younger, Sir George

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Lewisham and Mr. Orde-Powlett.

  Royds, Edmund

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  CLAUSE 45.—(Orders in Council to be Laid before Parliament.)
  (1) Any Order in Council made for the purpose of the transitory provisions of this Act shall be laid before both Houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom within forty days next after it is made if Parliament is then sitting, or if not, within forty days after the commencenment of the then next ensuing session; and if an address is presented to His Majesty by either of these Houses within the next subsequent forty days praying that any such Order may be annulled, His Majesty may thereupon by Order in Council annul the same, and the Order so annulled shall forthwith become void, but without prejudice to the validity
  of any proceedings which may in the meantime have been taken under the Order.
  (2) Any Order in Council made for the purpose of the transitory provisions of this Act shall, subject to the foregoing provisions of this Section, have effect as if enacted in this Act.
  Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Any" ["Any Order in Council made for the purpose"], to insert the words "Irish Transfer."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 302; Noes, 191.

  Division No. 427.]

  AYES.

  [11.30 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burke, E. Havlland-

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Adamson, William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Doris, W.

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Duffy, William J.

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Arnold, Sydney

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Clough, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Clynes, John R.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Falconer, J.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Barnes, G. N.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Barton, W.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Cotton, William Francis

  Field, William

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Bentham, G. J.

  Crean, Eugene

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Crooks, William

  France, G. A.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Crumley, Patrick

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cullinan, J.

  Gill, A. H.

  Boland, John Plus

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Ginnell, L.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Brace, William

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Goldstone, Frank

  Brady, P. J,

  De Forest, Baron

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Delany, William

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Devlin, Joseph

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Guiney, P.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Manfield, Harry

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Hackett, J.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Robinson, Sidney

  Hancock, John George

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Roch, Walter F.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Martin, Joseph

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Meagher, Michael

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Rowlands, James

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-snire)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Molloy, M.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Morrell, Philip

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Muldoon, John

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Hayward, Evan

  Munro, R.

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Sheehy, David

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Helme, Sir Nerval Watson

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Shortt, Edward

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Snowden, Philip

  Higham, John Sharp

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hinds, John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Hodge, John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Sutton, John E.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Ogden, Fred

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Grady, James

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Malley, William

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Shee, James John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Wadsworth, J.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Keating, Matthew

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Waring, Walter

  Kilbride, Denis

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  King, J.

  Pointer, Joseph

  Watt, Henry A.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Webb, H.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Leach, Charles

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Radford, G. H.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Lurdon, Thomas

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  McGhee, Richard

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Winfrey, Richard

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  M'Kean, John

  Richards, Thomas

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Barnston, Harry

  Boles, Lieut-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Ashley, W. W,

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Bull, Sir William James

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Butcher, J. G.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Bird, A.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Blair, Reginald

  Cassel, Felix

  642

  643

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rawson, Lt. Col. R. H.

  Cator, John

  Hills, John Waller

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Cautley, H. S.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cave, George

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Royds, Edmund

  Chambers, J.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby,

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Croft, H. P.

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Stanier, Beville

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Starkey, John R.

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Fell, Arthur

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Fetherstenhaugh, Godfrey

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Swift, Rigby

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon, Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Lorsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Gibbs, G. A.

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Goldman, C. S.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Goldsmith, Frank

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Greene, W. R.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Gretton, John

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Newdegate, F, A.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Hamilton, Marquess, of (Londonderry)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Younger, Sir George

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Quilter, sir William Eley C.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Major Willoughby and Mr. Baird.

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Government Amendment:
  To leave out, in Sub-section (1), the words "for the purpose of the transitory provisions of," and to insert instead thereof the word "under."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 302; Noes, 189.

  Division No. 428.]

  AYES

  [11.40 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bentham, G. J.

  Cawley, H. T (Lancs., Heywood)

  Adamson, William

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Chapple, Dr. William Alien

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Black, Arthur w.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Boland, John Plus

  Clough, William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Clynes, John R.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Brace, William

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Brady, P. J.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth),

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Barnes, G. N.

  Burke, E. Haviland.

  Crean, Eugene

  Barton, W.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Crooks, William

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Crumley, Patrick

  Cullinan, J.

  Jowett, Frederick W.

  Radford, G. H.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. S. J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Joyce, Michael

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Keating, Matthew

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reddy, M.

  De Forest, Baron

  King, J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Delany, William

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Richards, Thomas

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Doris, W.

  Leach, Charles

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Duffy, William J.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, Sir H. (Denbighs)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lynch, A, A.

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  McGhee, Richard

  Roch, Walter F.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Falconer, J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Rowlands, James

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  M'Kean, John

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Ffrench, Peter

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Manfield, Harry

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  France, G. A.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Gill, A. H.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Sheehy, David

  Ginnell, L.

  Martin, Joseph

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Shortt, Edward

  Glanville, Harold James

  Meagher, Michael

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Meehan, Francis (Leitrim, N.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Millar, James Duncan

  Snowden, Philip

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Molloy, M.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Sutton, John E.

  Gulney, P.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Gulland, John William

  Muldoon, John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Munro, R.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Hackett, J.

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Hancock, John George

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hurdle, J. Keir

  Norton, Capt. C. W.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Wadsworth, J.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Ogden, Fred

  Waring, Walter

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Grady, James

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Malley, William

  Webb, H.

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Shee, James John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Righam, John Sharp

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Hinds, John

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Wiles, Thomas

  Hobhouse, Pt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Hodge, John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A, (Rotnerham)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Words., N.)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pointer, Joseph

  Winfrey, Richard

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Jones, Leif Straiten (Rushcliffe)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Jones, W. s. Glyn (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  646

  647

  NOES

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Greene, W. R.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baird, J. L.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Balcarres, Lord

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rawson, Lt. Col. R. H.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Royds, Edmund

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Bird, A.

  Hills, John Waller

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Blair, Reginald

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Boles, Lieut. -Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanier, Seville

  Bull, Sir William James

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John R.

  Butcher, J. G.

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Steet-Maitland, A. D.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cassel, Felix

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Swift, Rigby

  Castlereagh Viscount

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Cator, John

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Chambers, J,

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Touche, George Alexander

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Craig, Charles (Antrim. S.)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Croft, H. P.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Mackinder, H. J,

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Fell, Arthur

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Middiemore, John Throgmorton

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Younger, Sir George

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Fitzroy and Mr. Alan Sykes.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Government Amendment:
  In Sub-section (2), after the word there inserted. "Any" ["Any Order in Council"], to insert the words "Irish Transfer. "—[Mr. Birell.]
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 186.

  Division No. 429.]

  AYES

  [11.53 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Adamson, William

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Barton, W.

  Hancock, John George

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Bentham, G. J.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hatmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Black, Arthur W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Boland, John Plus

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Brace, William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Ogden, Fred

  Brady, P. J.

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Grady, James

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Malley, William

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, W.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Burke, E. Haviland.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Shee, James John

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Higham, John Sharp

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hinds, John

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Hodge, John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hogge, James Myles

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M,

  Clough, William

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Clynes, John R.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Philips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pointer, Joseph

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  John, Edward Thomas

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, W. S. Glyn (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Pringle William M. R.

  Crooks, William

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Radford, G. H.

  Crumley, Patrick

  Joyce, Michael

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Cullinan, J.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Keating, Matthew

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reddy, M.

  Dawes, James Arthur

  King, J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Do Forest, Baron

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Delany, William

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Devlin, Joseph

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Richards, Thomas

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Leach, Charles

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Doris, W.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  McGhee, Richard

  Roch, Walter F.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, Scull.

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Falconer, J.

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Rowlands, James

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Manfield, Harry

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  France, G. A.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Gill, A. H.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Shechy, David

  Ginnell, L.

  Martin, Joseph

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Shortt, Edward

  Glanville, Harold James

  Meagher, Michael

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Millar, James Duncan

  Snowden, Philip

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Molloy, M.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Sutton, John E.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Guiney, P.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Gulland, John William

  Muldoon, John

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Munro, R.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hackett, J.

  Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.

  Thorns, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  650

  651

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Webb, H.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Words., N.)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Wadsworth, J.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Wiles, Thomas

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Waring, Walter

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Greene, W. R.

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gretton, John

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Baird, J. L.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawson, Lt. Col. R. H.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barnston, Harry

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Royds, Edmund

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Bird, A.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Blair, Reginald

  Hills, John Waller

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Boles, Lieut. -Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanier, Beville

  Bridgeman, W. Cilve

  Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Starkey, John R.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Butcher, J. G.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stewart, Gershom

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Swift, Rigby

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cassel, Felix

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cator, John

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Chambers, J.

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent Mid)

  Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Weinall, Capt. A. G.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lyttelton Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wheler Graville C H

  Croft, H. P.

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Fell Arthur

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C, B. Stuart-

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wright, Herbert Fitzherbert

  Fletcher, John Samuel

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Gibbs, G. A,

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Younger, Sir George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Goldman, C. S.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hugh Barrie and Mr. J. Mason.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Government Amendment:
  In Sub-section (2), after the word "made" ["Any Order in Council made"],
  652
  leave out the words "for the purpose of the transitory provisions of," and insert the word "under."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 287; Noes, 177.

  Division No. 430.]

  AYES

  [12.3 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Gill, A. H.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Ginnell, L.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Adamson, William

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Martin, Joseph

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Glanville, Harold James

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Meagher, Michael

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Goldstone, Frank

  Mechan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Molloy, M.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Gulney, P.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Gulland, John William

  Mooney, J. J.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Morrell, Philip

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Hackett, J.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Muldoon, John

  Barnes, G. N.

  Hancock, John George

  Munro, R.

  Barton, W.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Hardle, J. Kelr

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Black, Arthur W.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Boland, John Plus

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Brace, William

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Brady, P. J.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Ogden, Fred

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Grady, James

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Carr-Gemm, H. W.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Malley, William

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Non., S.)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hinds, John

  O'Shee, James John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Clough, William

  Hogge, James Myles

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Clynes, John B.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Cotton, William Francis

  John, Edward Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, W. S. Glyn (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Joyce, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Keating, Matthew

  Radford, G. H.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  De Forest, Baron

  Kilbride, Denis

  Delany, William

  King, J.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Reddy, M.

  Dickinson, w. H.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Doris, W.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Leach, Charles

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richards, Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  McGhee, Richard

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Robinson, Sidney

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roch, Walter F.

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Firench, Peter

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Rowlands, James

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Manfield, Harry

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  France, G. A.

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Russell, Rt. Hon, Thomas W.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Tennant, Harold John

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Wiles, Thomas

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Sheeny, David

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wadsworth, J.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Shortt, Edward

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Snowden, Philip

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)

  Waring, Walter

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Sutton, John E.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Taylor, John w. (Durham)

  Webb, H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Greene, W. R.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baird, J. L.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Balcarres, Lord

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South]

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barnston, Harry

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hills, John Waller

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Beresford, Lord c.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bird, A.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanier, Seville

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hunt, Rowland

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Bull, Sir William James

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Butcher, J. G.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Swift, Rigby

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cassel, Felix

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Cator, John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cave, George

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Chaloner, Col. R. C W.

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Chambers, J.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lewe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Normal (Kent, Thanet)

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Croft, H. P.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Doughty, Sir George

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fell, Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Younger, Sir George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Col. Rawson and Col. Hickman.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 288; Noes, 168.

  Division No. 431.]

  AYES.

  [12.10 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  France, G. A.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. R.

  Adamson, William

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Manfield, Harry

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Arnold, Sydney

  Goldstone, Frank

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Martin, Joseph

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Meagher, Michael

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Guiney, P.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Gulland, John William

  Millar, James Duncan

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Molloy, M.

  Barton, W.

  Hackett, J.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normauton>

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Hancock, John George

  Mooney, J. J.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Black, Arthur w.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Boland, John Plus

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Muldoon, John

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Munro, R.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Harvey, A. G, C. (Rochdale)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Brace, William

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Brady, P. J.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Burke, E, Haviland-

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hayward, Evan

  Nuttall, Harry

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W,

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare. N.)

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Hey wood)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Ogden, Fred

  Clough, William

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Grady, James

  Clynes, John R.

  Hinds, John

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Malley, William

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hodge, John

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cornwall, sir Edwin A.

  Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Cotton, Williams Francis

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Hughes, S. L.

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crean, Eugene

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Crooks, William

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Crumley, Patrick

  John, Edward Thomas

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  De Forest, Baron

  Joyce, Michael

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Delany, William

  Keating, Matthew

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  King, J.

  Radford, G. H.

  Doris, W.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Raff an, Peter Wilson

  Duffy, William J.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Raphael Sir Herbert H.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shield)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Reddy, M.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Leach, Charles

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lundon, Thomas

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Falconer, J.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Richards, Thomas

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  McGhee, Richard

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Maclean, Donald

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, J. H. Swift (Donegal, S.)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Field, William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Robinson, Sidney

  Roch, Walter F.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Webb, H.

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wedgwood, J. C.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Sutton, John E.

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Rowlands, James

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Waiter

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W,

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Winfrey, R.

  Sheeny, David

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Shortt, Edward

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Waring, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Snowden, Philip

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Watt, Henry A.

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Greene, W. R.

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Baird, J. L.

  Gretton, John

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baker, Sir Randoll L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barnston, Harry

  Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

  Rawson, Lt. Col. R. H.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Remnant, James F.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Bird, A.

  Hills, John Waller

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boscowen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hunt, Rowland

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stewart, Gershom

  Butcher, J. G.

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Swift, Rigby

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cassel, Felix

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Cator, John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cautley, H. S.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cave, George

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Locker-Lampson, 0. (Ramsey)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Charles (Antrim, S.)

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Croft, H. P.

  M'Neill, R. (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fell, Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Younger, Sir George

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Stanier and Mr. G. Locker-Lampson.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Clause 46.—(Appointed Day.)
  The appointed day for the purposes of this Act shall be the day for the first meeting of the Irish Parliament, or such other day not more than six months earlier or later, as may be fixed by Order of His Majesty in Council either generally or with reference to any particular provision of this Act, and different days may be appointed for different purposes and different provisions of this Act.
  Government Amendment:
  Leave out the words "day for the first meeting of the Irish Parliament," and insert the words "the first Tuesday in the eighth month after the month in which this Act is passed."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 286; Noes, 172.

  Division No. 432.]

  AYES.

  [12.20 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Kilbride, Denis

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Esmonde, Or. John (Tipperary, N.)

  King, J.

  Adamson, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Addison, Dr Christopher

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Falconer, James

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Lawson, Sir w. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Leach, Charles

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Field, William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Lundon, T.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lynch, A. A.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Barnes, George N.

  Gill, A. H.

  McGhee, Richard

  Barton, William

  Ginnell, L.

  Maclean, Donald

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Glanville, H. J.

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Goldstone, Frank

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Black, Arthur W,

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Boland, John Pius

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Guiney, Patrick

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Gulland, John William

  M'Laren, Hon F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Brace, William

  Hackett, J.

  Manfield, Harry

  Brady, P. J.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Hancock, John George

  Marks, Sir George Crydon

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Martin, J.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Meagher, Michael

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harsmworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Molloy, Michael

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Clough, William

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Mooney, John J.

  Clynes, John R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morrell, Philip

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hay ward, Evan

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Muldoon, John

  Compton-Rickettt, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Munro, R.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Higham, John Sharp

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Crean, Eugene

  Hinds, John

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Crooks, William

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hodge, John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cullinan, John

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Ogden, Fred

  Dawes, J. A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Grady, James

  De Forest, Baron

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Delany, William

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Malley, William

  Den man, Hon. R. D.

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Ruscliffe)

  O'Shee, James John

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Doris, William

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Duffy, William J.

  Joyce, Michael

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Keating, Matthew

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Duncan, J, Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H, M.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Rowlands, James

  Wadsworth, J.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Waiter

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. w. H.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Waring, Walter

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Brigeton)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Radford, G. H.

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Webb, H.

  Raffan, peter Wilson

  Sheehy, David

  Wedgwood, Josiah c.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Rea, Rt Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Shortt, Edward

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Whyte, A. (Perth)

  Reddy, M.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Snowden, Philip

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Richards, Thomas

  Sutton, John E.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wood, Rt. Hon, T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Capt. Guest.

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Fell, Arthur

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gilmour, Captain John

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustin's)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Baird, J. L.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Greene, W. R.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Barnston, H.

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Nedegate, F. A.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hall, Marshall (L'pool, E. Toxteth)

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pole-Carew, Sir R

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Bird, A.

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pryce-Jones, Col, E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs.)

  Blair, Reginald

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Quitter, Sir William Eley C.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Randles, Sir John S.

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hills, John Waller

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Butcher, John George

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Cassel, Felix

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)'

  Cator, John

  Hunt, Rowland

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Cautley, H. S.

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Sasson, Sir Philip

  Cave, George

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jessel, Capt. H. M.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Chambers, James

  Kerry, Earl of

  Stanier, Beville

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Starkey, John R.

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Stewart, Gershom

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Swift, Rigby

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Sykes, Alan John (Cites., Knutsford)

  Croft, Henry Page

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Falle, B. G.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  664

  665

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Tonche, George Alexander

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Willoughby. Major Hon. Claud

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Younger, Sir George

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. E. Wood and Col. Burn.

  Weigall, Capt. A. G.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Government Amendment:
  To leave out the word "six" ["or such other day not more than six months earlier or later"], and to insert instead thereof the word "seven."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 168.

  Division No. 433.]

  AYES.

  [12.30 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Keating, Matthew

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Adamson, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Kilbride, Denis

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Falconer, James

  King, J.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Field, William

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Leach, Charles

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Barnes, George N.

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Lundon, T.

  Barton, William

  Gill, A. H.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Ginnell, L.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  McGhee, Richard

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Ganville, H. J.

  Maclean, Donald

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Boland, John Pius

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Guiney, Patrick

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Gulland, John William

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald)

  Brace, William

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Brady, P. J.

  Hackett, J.

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hancock, John George

  Manfield, Harry

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Harcourt, Robert V, (Montrose)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Martin, J.

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Meagher, Michael

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Clough, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Molloy, Michael

  Clynes, John R.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hayward, Evan

  Mooney, John J.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Morrell, Philip

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Muldoon, John

  Cotton, William Francis

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Munro, R.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Crean, Eugene

  Higham, John Sharp

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Crooks, William

  Hinds, John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Cullinan, John

  Hodge, John

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Nuttall, Harry

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Brien, Patrick Kilkenny)

  Davies, Sir W, Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  De Forest, Baron

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Delany, William

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Ogden, Fred

  Devlin, Joseph

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Grady, James

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Malley, William

  Doris, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J,

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  O'Shee, James John

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Outhwalte, R. L.

  Rdbertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Robinson, Sidney

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Rowlands, James

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Waring, Walter

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Webb, H.

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Pringle, William M, R.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Radford, G. H.

  Sheehy, David

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Shortt, Edwird

  Wiles, Thomas

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Reddy, M.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, F.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Richards, Thomas

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wood, Rt, Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbiqhs)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  NOES.

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Gilmour, Captain John

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Archer-Shee, Major

  Goldman, C. S.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ashley, W. W.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Baird, J. L.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Greene, W. R.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Barnston, H.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Blair, Reginald

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hills, John Waller

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Butcher, John George

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Cassel, Felix

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen)

  Cator, John

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Cave, George

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Sassoon, Sir Phillip

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Chambers, James

  Kerry, Earl of

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stanier, Beville

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Stewart, Gershom

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Swift, Rigby

  Croft, Henry Page

  Locker-Lampson, O, (Ramsey)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Terrell, George (Wilts)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Falle, B. G.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Fell, Arthur

  MacCaw, Win, J. MacGeagh

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  668

  669

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Wright, Honry Fitzherbert

  Touche, George Alexander

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Yate, Col. Charles Edward

  Tuillbardlne, Marquess of

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Younger, Sir George

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Wood, Hon. E. F, L. (Ripon)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Colone Burn and Mr. Bird.

  Welgall, Capt. A. G.

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 162.

  Division No. 434.]

  AYES.

  [12.40 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Falconer, James

  Leach, Charles

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Adamsen, William

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Lundon, T.

  Ainsworth, John Stifling

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lynch, A. A.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Field, William

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Fiervnes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  McGhee, Richard

  Arnold, Sydney

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Barnes, George N.

  Glanville, H. J.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Barton, William

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines, Spalding)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Gold stone, Frank

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Manfield, Harry

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S, Geo.)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Guiney, Patrick

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Black, Arthur W.

  Gulland, John William

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Boland, John Pius

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Martin, J.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Hackett, J.

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Meagher, Michael

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Hancock, John George

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N)

  Brace, William

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Brady, P. J.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Molloy, Michael

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Hardle, J. Keir

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Mend, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Calthness-shire)

  Mooney, John J.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harvey, W. E. Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Muldoon, John

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Munro, R.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hazleton, Richard

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Clough, William

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Clynes, John R.

  Holme, Sir Norval Watson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Nuttall, Harry

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hinds, John

  O'Connor, John, (Kildare, N.)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Hodge, John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Ogden, Fred

  Crean Eugene

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Grady, James

  Crooks, William

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Malley, William

  Cullinan, John

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Shee, James John

  Cavies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Dawes, J. A.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  De Forest, Baron

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Delany, William

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Keating, Matthew

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Doris, William

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pointer, Joseph

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  King, J.

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham}

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockermth)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Radford, G. H.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Waring, Walter

  Reddy, M.

  Sheehy, David

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Watt, Henry A.

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Shorn, Edward

  Webb, H.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Richards, Thomas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Sutton, John E.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Robinson, Sydney

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, W T. (Westhoughton)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Rowlands, James

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Verney, Sir Harry

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wadsworth, J.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Greene, W. R.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Bairn, J. L.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'gomy B'ghs.)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barnston, H.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barrie, H. T.

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hills, John Waller

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bird, A.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanier, Beville

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Home, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Butcher, John George

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stewart, Gershom

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Swift, Rigby

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Jessel, Capt. H. M.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Cassel, Felix

  Kinloch-Cooke Sir Clement

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, N.)

  Cator, John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cave, George

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Touche, George Alexander

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Chambers, James

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Clay, Captain H H. Spender

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Croft, Henry Page

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Doughty, Sir George

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Malcolm, tan

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Faber, Geore Denison (Clapham)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Falle, B. G.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fell, Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Younger, Sir George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Goldman, C. S.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Earl of Kerry and Sir Cuthbert Quilter.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Clause 47.—(Definitions.)
  In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
  The expression "existing" means existing at the passing of this Act:
  The expression "constituency" means a parliamentary constituency, or a county, borough, or university returning a member or members to serve in the Irish House of Commons as the case requires, and the expression "parliamentary constituency" means any county, borough, or university returning a member or members to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom:
  The expression "parliamentary elector" means a person entitled to be registered as a voter at, a parliamentary election:
  The expression "parliamentary election" means the election of a member to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom:
  The expression "election laws" means the laws relating to the election of members to serve in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, other than those relating to the qualification of electors, and includes all the laws respecting the registration of electors, the issue and execution of writs, the creation of polling districts, the taking of the poll, the questioning of elections, corrupt and illegal practices, the oath, qualification and disqualification of members, and the vacating of seats:
  The expression "tax" includes duties (other than duties of postage) and fees (other than fees which are charged in respect of any special Irish service, and the receipts from which are, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, of a character to be properly treated as appropriations in aid):
  The expression "Irish Act" means a law made by the Irish Parliament:
  The expression "salary" includes remuneration, allowances, and emoluments:
  The expression "pension" includes superannuation allowance, and in relation
  to a constable of the Royal Irish Constabulary or the Dublin Metropolitan Police includes a pension or gratuity payable to the widow or children of a constable:
  The expression "office" includes any place, situation, or employment, and the expression "officer" shall be construed accordingly:
  The expression "officer" in relation to the Royal Irish Constabulary includes the Inspector-General, the Deputy-Inspector-General, an Assistant-Inspector-General, the Assistant-Inspector-General-Command-ant of the Dep6t, the Town Inspector at Belfast, a County Inspector, a surgeon, a storekeeper and barrack-master, the veterinary surgeon, and a district inspector, and in relation to the Dublin Metropolitan Police, includes the Chief Commissioner, Assistant-Commissioner, and Secretary and Accountant:
  The expression "constable" in relation to the Royal Irish Constabulary includes the head-constable-major, a head-constable, sergeant, acting sergeant, and constable; and in relation to the Dublin Metropolitan Police includes every member of that force not being of higher rank than chief superintendent, and not being a member of the clerical staff only:
  The expression "Royal Irish Constabulary" includes the reserve force of that body.
  Government Amendment: After the words "of a character to be properly treated as appropriations in aid," insert the words,
  "For the purposes of this Act duties on a raw material and on articles produced, prepared, or manufactured from that material, and any group of duties fixed in relation to some common basis, shall be deemed to be correlated duties." —[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 276; Noes, 157.

  Division No. 435.]

  AYES.

  [12.50 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Boland, John Plus

  Adamson, William

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barnes, George N.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mays, North)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Barton, William

  Brace, William

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Brady, P. J.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Benn, W, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Hinds, John

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hodge, John

  Pointer, Joseph

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  John, Edward Thomas

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  dough, William

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Clynes, John R.

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Radford, G. H.

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Rattan, Peter Wilson

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Reddy, M.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Joyce, Michael

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Keating, Matthew

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Richards, Thomas

  Crooks, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Crumley, Patrick

  King, J.

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Cullinan, John

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Dawes, J. A.

  Leach, Charles

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  De Forest, Baron

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Delany, William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lundon, T.

  Rowlands, James

  Devlin, Joseph

  Lynch, A. A.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Donelan, Captain A.

  McGhee, Richard

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Doris, William

  Maclean, Donald

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Duffy, William J.

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Sheehy, David

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  M'Laren, Hon. H, D. (Leics.)

  Shortt, Edward

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Falconer, James

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Manfield, Harry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Sutton, John E

  Field, William

  Martin, J.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Meagher, Michael

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Millar, James Duncan

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Gill, A. H.

  Molloy, Michael

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Ginnell, L.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Glanville, H. J.

  Meoney, John J.

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Fero

  Morrell, Philip

  Wadsworth, J.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Muldcon, John

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Munro, R.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Gulland, John William

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Waring, Walter

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Hackett, J.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Webb, H.

  Hancock. John George

  Nuttall, Harry

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  O'Connor, John, (Kildare, N.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Wiles, Thomas

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Ogden, Fred

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  O'Grady, James

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Malley, William

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Winfrey, Richard

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Shee, James John

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Hayward, Evan

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. G. Howard and Captain Guest.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  676

  677

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Greene, W. R.

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Gretton, John

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs)

  Baird, J. L.

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Barnston, H.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Barrie, H. T.

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Benn, A. S. (Plymouth)

  Hills, John Waller

  Sasson, Sir Philip

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Bird, A.

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanier, Beville

  Blair, Reginald

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fertescue

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Starkey, John R.

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Swift, Rigby

  Butcher, John George

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Ken-

  Sykes, Alan J. (Ches., Knutsford)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cassel, Felix

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Cator, John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cave, George

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tryon, Capt, George Clement

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lowe, Sir W (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGcagh

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Croft, Henry Page

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Doughty, Sir George

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Middfemore, John Throgmorton

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Falle, B. G.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Fell, Arthur

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wortley, Rt. Ken. C. B. Stuart-

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Younger, Sir George

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. John Lyttelton and Mr. Mills.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Government Amendment: After the Amendment last made insert the words,
  "The levy of an Imperial tax in Ireland includes, where the variation of the tax by the Irish Parliament affects persons resident or domiciled in Ireland, or the property of any person so resident or
  domiciled, the levy of the tax on or in respect of such persons or such property."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 272; Noes, 155.

  Division No. 436.]

  AYES.

  [1.0 a.m

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Barton, William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Adamson, William

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Black, Arthur W.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Boland, John Pius

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Arnold, Sydney

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Clough, William

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Clynes, John R.

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Brace, William

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Brady, P. J.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Barlow, sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Barnes, George N.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Crooks, William

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Radford, G. H.

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Cullinan, John

  Joyce, Michael

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Keating, Matthew

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reddy, M.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  King, Joseph

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  De Forest, Baron

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Delany, William

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Richards, Thomas

  Devlin, Joseph

  Leach, Charles

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lundon, T.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Doris, William

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Duffy, William J.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  McGhee, Richard

  Robinson, Sidney

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  MacNeill, J. (Swift (Donegal, South)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rowlands, James

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Falconer, James

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Manfield, Harry

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Field, William

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Sheehy, David

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Martin, J.

  Shortt, Edward

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Meagher, Michael

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Gill, A. H.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Soames, Arthur Weliesley

  Ginnell, L.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Molloy, Michael

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Glanville, H. J.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sutton, John E.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Mooney, John J.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Morrell, Philip

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Guiney, Patrick

  Muldoon, John

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Munro, R.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Hackett, J.

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hancock, John George

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Wadsworth, J.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Connor, John, (Kildare, N.)

  Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Waring, Walter

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Ogden, Fred

  Watt, Henry A.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Grady, James

  Webb, H.

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Malley, William

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shee, James John

  Wiles, Thomas

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Higham, John Sharp

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Hinds, John

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Parker, James Halifax

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Hodge, John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. w. (Worcester, N.)

  Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Pointer, Joseph

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rutus

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  John, Edward Thomas

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Archer-Shee, Major

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Baird, J. L.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  680

  681

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Mt'gomy B'ghs)

  Barnston, H.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Bathurst, Hon. A. E. B. (Glouc.,)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rawson, Col. R. H.

  Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  HIM, Sir Clement L.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beresford, Lord C.

  Hills, John Waller

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bird, A.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Sasson, Sir Philip

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Burn, Colonel, C. R.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Butcher, John George

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E)

  Stanier, Beville

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Starkey, John R.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Cassel, Felix

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cautley, H. S.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Swift, Rigby

  Cave, George

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Chambers, James

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lonsdale, Sir J. Brownlee

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  MacCaw, Wm J. MacGeagh

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Croft, Henry Page

  Macmaster, Donald

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Doughty, Sir George

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Malcolm, Ian

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Falle, B. G.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mount. William Arthur

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Greene, W. R.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Younger, Sir George

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Walrond and Mr. Mildmay.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Government Amendment: After the words last added, insert the words, "The expression 'Irish Treasury' means the Irish department or officer, by whatever name called, for the time being entrusted with the administration of Irish finance."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 146.

  Division No.437.]

  AYES.

  [1.10 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Adamson, William

  Brace, William

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Crean, Eugene

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Crooks, William

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Crumley, Patrick

  Arnold, Sydney

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Cullinan, John

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  De Forest, Baron

  Barnes, G. N.

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Delany, William

  Barton, William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Clough, William

  Devlin, Joseph

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Clynes, John R.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Doris, William

  Boland, John Pius

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Duffy, William J.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Leach, Charles

  Reddy, M.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Falconer, James

  Lundon, Thomas

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Lynch, A. A.

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  McGhee, Richard

  Richards, Thomas

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Field, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Robinson, Sidney

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. Leics.)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Ginned, Laurence

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Rowlands, James

  Glanville, H. J.

  Manfield, Harry

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Goldstone, Frank

  Marksham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Martin, Joseph

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Guiney, Patrick

  Meagher, Michael

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Hackett, John

  Millar, James Duncan

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Molloy, Michael

  Shortt, Edward

  Hancock, J. G.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Mooney, John J.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Morrell, Philip

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Muldoon, John

  Sutton, John E.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Munro, R.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nannetfi, Joseph P.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Hayward, Evan

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Hazleton, Richard

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Connor, John (Kildare N.)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hinds, John

  Ogden, Fred

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Grady, James

  Waring, Walter

  Hodge, John

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Malley, William

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Webb, H.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Shee, James John

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  William, John (Glamorgan)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Keating, Matthew

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Winfrey, Richard

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pringle, William M. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Radford, G. H.

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Cassel, Felix

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Bird, Alfred

  Cator, John

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Blair, Reginald

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Chambers, James

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Barnston, Harry

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Barrie, H. T.

  Butcher, John George

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E).

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Croft, H. P.

  684

  685

  Doughty, Sir George

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Stanier, Seville

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  MacCaw, Win. J. MacGeagh

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Goldman, C. S.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stewart, Gershom

  Grant, J. A.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, North)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Hills, John Waller

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Rawson, Col, Richard H.

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Kerry, Earl of

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Kerr-Smiley and Mr. Aubrey Herbert.

  Lee, A. H.

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Government Amendment: After the word "Commissioner" ["includes the Chief Commissioner"], to insert the word "and."—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the amendment be made."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 263; Noes, 146.

  Division No. 438.]

  AYES.

  [1.17 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Fiennes, Hon. E. Edward

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Adamson, William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Prance, Gerald Ashburner

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cotton, William Francis

  Gill, A. H.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Ginned, Laurence

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Arnold, Sydney

  Crean, Eugene

  Glanville, H. J.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Crooks, William

  Goldstone, Frank

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Culiinan, John

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Barton, William

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Dawes, J. A.

  Hackett, John

  Benn, w. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  De Forest, Baron

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Delany, William

  Hancock, J. G.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Boland, John Pius

  Devlin, Joseph

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Doris, William

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Calthness-shire)

  Brace, William

  Duffy, William J.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Hayward, Evan

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hazleton, Richard

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Falconer, James

  Mealy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Helme, Sir Nerval Watson

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Clough, William

  Ffrench, Peter

  Higham, John Sharp

  Clynes, John R.

  Field, William

  Hinds, John

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Muldoon, John

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Hodge, John

  Munro, R.

  Rowlands, James

  Hogge, James Myles

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon, Walter

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Hughes, S. L.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Shortt, Edward

  Jones, W. (Carnarvon)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Ogden, Fred

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Grady, James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Keating, Matthew

  O'Malley, William

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, s.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Shee, James John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cmb'rid, Cockerm'thu)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Leach, Charles

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Lundon, Thomas

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  McGhee, Richard

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Waring, Walter

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Webb, H.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Radford, G. H.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S (Lines, Spalding)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Rea. Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Manfield, Harry

  Reddy, M.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Redmond, Wolliam (Clare, E.)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Martin, Joseph

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesborough)

  Meagher, Michael

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Richards, Thomas

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Molloy, Michael

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Young, W. (Perth, E.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Robertson, J. M, (Tyneside)

  Mooney, John J.

  Robinson, Sydney

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Worrell, Philip

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Ashley, Wilfred W.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hills, John Walter

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Chambers, James

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Craig, Charles Curtis, (Antrim, S.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Barnston, Harry

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Barrie, H. T.

  Croft, H. P.

  Jardine, Earnest (Somerset, E.)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glos., E.)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Kerry, Earl of

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Bird, Alfred

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Blair, Reginald

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Goldman, C. S.

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Locker-Lampson. G. (Salisbury)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Grant, J. A.

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Butcher, John George

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Lyttelton, Hon J. C. (Droitwich)

  Campbell. Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Carlile, Sir Hildred

  Hamersley, Alfred St, George

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Macmaster, Donald

  Cassel, Felix

  Harrison-Broad icy. H. B.

  M'Neill, Ronad (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Cator, John

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  688

  689

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Touche, George Alexander

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Mount, William Arthur

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Ward, A. S. (Watford)

  Neville, Reginald, J. N.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Stanier, Beville

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (YorkS, Ripon)

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C B. Stuart-

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Younger, Sir George

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Major Archer-Shee and Mr. Cooper.

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Government Amendment:
  To leave out the words "and Secretary and Accountant"—[Mr. Birrell.]
  Question put, "That the Amendment bemade."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 147.

  Division No. 439.]

  AYES.

  [1.25 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Delany, William

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Adamson, William

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hinds, John

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Hodge, John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Doris, W.

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Duffy, William J.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Arnold, Sydney

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tlpperary, N.)

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Barton, W.

  Falconer, J.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Black, Arthur W.

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  Joyce, Michael

  Boland, John Pius

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Field, William

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Kilbride, Denis

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  King, Joseph

  Brace, William

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Brady, J. P.

  France, G. A.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Ginned, L.

  Leach, Charles

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Glanville, H. J.

  Lundon, T.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Goldstone, Frank

  Lynch, A. A.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Chancellor, Henry G.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  McGhee, Richard

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Gulney, P.

  Maclean, Donald

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gulland, John William

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Clough, William

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Macpherson, James tan

  Clynes, John R.

  Hackett, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Collins, Godfrey p. (Greenock)

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hancock, J. G.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Hardie, J. Keir

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Manfield, Harry

  Crean, Eugene

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Crooks, William

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Crumley, Patrick

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Cullinan, J.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Martin, J.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hen. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Meagher, Michael

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hayward, Evan

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

  Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Molloy, Michael

  Dawes, J. A.

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  De Forest, Baron

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Mooney, J. J.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Worrell, Philip

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Sutton, John E.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Muldoon, John

  Radford, G. H.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Munro, R.

  Raff an, Peter Wilson

  Tennant, Harold John

  Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Reddy, Michael

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wadsworth, J.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Richards, Thomas

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Waring, Walter

  Ogden, Fred

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Warner, Sir T. C.

  O'Grady, James

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Watt, Henry A.

  O'Kelly, Edward p. (Wicklow, W.)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Webb, H.

  O'Malley, William

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Rowlands, James

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Shee, James John

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wiles, Thomas

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Scott, A, MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Sheeny, David

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Winfrey, Richard

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Shortt, Edward

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Bonn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  NOES.

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Fisher, Rt. Hon, W. Hayes

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Baird, J. L.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Balcarrcs, Lord

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Grant, J. A.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Barnston, Harry

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds

  Peel, Capt. R. F.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Hickman, Col. T. E.

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Bird, Alfred

  Hills, John Waller

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Blair, Reginald

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hope, Major A. (Midlothian)

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Stanier, Beville

  Butcher, John George

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Cassel, Felix

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stewart, Gershom

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Cator, John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Chambers, James

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R,

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Touche, George Alexander

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. G. (Droitwich)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Croft, Henry Page

  Malcolm, Ian

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Williams, Col. F. (Dorset, W.)

  Faile, Bertram Godfray

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  692

  693

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Geo. Doughty and Sir J. Spear.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Younger, Sir George

  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 145.

  Division No. 440.]

  AYES.

  [1.35 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Fltzgibbon, John

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Adamson, William

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Manfield, Harry

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gill, A. H.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Martin, Joseph

  Arnold, Sydney

  Glanville, H. J.

  Meagher, Michael

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Flnsbury, E.)

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Molloy, M.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gulney, Patrick

  Mooney, John J.

  Barton, W.

  Gulland, John William

  Morrell, Philip

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Hackett, J.

  Muldoon, John

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Munro, R.

  Boland, John Pius

  Hancock, J. G.

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Nolan, Joseph

  Brace, William

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Brady, P. J.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien, Patrick Kilkenny)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Ogden, Fred

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Grady, James

  Chancellor, Henry G.

  Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Holme, Sir Norval Watson

  O'Malley, William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Clough, William

  Henry, Sir Charles

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Shee, James John

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hinds, John

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hodge, John

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hogge, James Myles

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Phillpps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton)

  Crean, Eugene

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Crooks, William

  John, Edward Thomas

  Pointer, Joseph

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Cullinan, John

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Davies, Timothy (Louth)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Davies, sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Dawes, J. A.

  Joyce, Michael

  Radford, G. H.

  De Forest, Baron

  Keating, M.

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Delany, William

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  King, Joseph

  Reddy, Michael

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Doris, W.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Leach, Charles

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lundon, T.

  Richards, Thomas

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  McGhee, Richard

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Falconer, J.

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M Callum, Sir John M,

  Rowlands, James

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Ffrench, Peter

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Russell, Rt. Hon, Thomas W.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Whyte, A. F.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wiles, Thomas

  Sheehy, David

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wadsworth, J.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shortt, Edward

  Walsh, J. (Cork, S.)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Waring, Walter

  Winfrey, Richard

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Young, William (Perthshire, E.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Watt, Henry A

  Taylor, John w. (Durham)

  Webb, H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Tennant, Harold John

  NOES.

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Grant, J. A.

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Ashley, Wilfrid

  Greene, W. R.

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Quilter Sir William Eley C.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rawlinson, Sir John Frederick Peel

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

  Barnston, Harry

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barrie, H. T.

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hills, John Waller

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool W. Derby)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bird, Alfred

  Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Blair, Reginald

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanier, Beville

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hunt, Rowland

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Bull, Sir William James

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Stewart, Gershom

  Butcher, John George

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Cassel, Felix

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cator, John

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Chambers, James

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Macmaster, Donald

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Malcolm, Ian

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Croft, Henry Page

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon, C. B. Stuart-

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon, George

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Younger, Sir George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Col. Gibbs and Col. Bathurst.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  CLAUSE 48.—(Short Title.)
  This Act may cited as the Irish Government Act, 1912.
  Question put, "That this Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 268; Noes, 141.

  Division No. 441.

  AYES.

  [1.45 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Arnold, Sydney

  Adamson, William

  Allen, Arthur A, (Dumbartonshire)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  O'Malley, William

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  O'Shee, James John

  Barton, William

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Boland, John Pius

  Hay ward, Evan

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Hazleton, Richard

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Brace, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hinds, John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hodge, John

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hogge, James Myles

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Radford, G. H.

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  John, Edward Thomas

  Reddy, M.

  Clough, William

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Clynes, John R.

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jones, Leil Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jowett, F. W.

  Richards, Thomas

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Joyce, Michael

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Keating, Matthew

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Crean, Eugene

  Kilbride, Denis

  Robinson, Sidney

  Crooks, William

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Cullman, John

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rowlands, James

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Davies, Ellis William (Elfion)

  Leach, Charles

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Davies, Timothy (Lines, Louth)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  De Forest, Baron

  Macdonald. J. M. (Falkirk)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Delany, William

  McGhee, Richard

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Maclean, Donald

  Sheehy, David

  Devlin, Joseph

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Dickinson, W. H.

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Shortt, Edward

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

  Doris, William

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Duffy, William J.

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Manfield, Harry

  Tennant, Harold John

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Falconer, James

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Martin, Joseph

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Meagher, Michael

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Ferens, Rt. Hon. T. R.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Millar, James Duncan

  Walsh, J. (Cork, South)

  Field, William

  Molloy, Michael

  Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Mond, Sir Alfred-

  Waring, Walter

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mooney, John J.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Morrell, Philip

  Watt, Henry Anderson

  Gill, A. H.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Webb, H.

  Ginneil, Laurence

  Muldoon, John

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Munro, R.

  White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Greig, Col. J. W.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Wllkie, Alexander

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  William, John (Glamorgan)

  Guiney, Patrick

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Gulland, John William

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wilson, H. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Hackett, John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Winfrey, Richard

  Hancock, J. G.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Ogden, Fred

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  O'Grady, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.

  Hardie, J. Keir

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  698

  699

  NOES

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Peel, Captain R. F.

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Grant, J. A.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. Rnpert (Essex, S. E.)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Rawson, Col. Richard H.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Barnston, Harry

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Barrie, H. T.

  Harrisoh-Broadley, H. B.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hills, John Waller

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Bird, Alfred

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Stanier, Beville

  Blair, Reginald

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Stewart, Gershom

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Bull, Sir W. J.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Butcher, John George

  Kerry, Earl of

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cassel, Felix

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Touche, George Alexander

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Cator, John

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

  Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

  Chambers, James

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Malcom, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Croft, H. P.

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Younger, Sir George

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wheler and Captain Gilmour.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Committee report Progress: to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).

CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I beg to urge the House not to consider this Bill now. I think that after the farce in which we have been taking part during the last three hours it is a little hard that Members on this side should be asked to take part in converting into law a measure which has been promoted by hon. Members opposite. If this were a Government measure we might take some trouble to see that it was placed on the Statute Book. Our feeling of loyalty to the Government on account
700
of the Liberal principles for which they stand would cause us to go to a considerable amount of trouble in order to see that their Bills became Acts of Parliament, but it is a very different matter in regard to a Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Fareham and pressed forward by panic which is unjustified by any well-ascertained facts for which there is any documentary evidence whatever. It has been thrust through this House by almost terrorisation of Members of the House. It is true it has received the blessing of the Archbishops in another place, and specialists on flogging have backed it for all they are worth. Now we are asked at two o'clock in the morning to consider the very serious Amendments which the House of Lords have made to this Bill. The Prime Minister, when asked what measures would be taken after half-past ten, said he hoped this Bill would be taken, but he made a

701
very important proviso. He said he hoped the Bill would be taken provided the Divisions on the Home Rule Bill did not take too long. Well, they could not have taken longer than they have done this evening. Surely three hours after half-past ten is sufficient to warrant us in urging the Government to fulfil the promise of the Prime Minister, and not to press forward this Bill at such an unseemly rate. The fact of the matter is the Government in bringing forward all their minor legislation after eleven o'clock at night are creating a precedent which is exceedingly dangerous. We have a list of Measures which the Government have either in prospect or have already passed through this House after eleven o'clock at night. We have the Superannuation Bill coming along— a Bill creating a large addition to the salaries of the permanent officials.
Mr. T. M. HEALY: I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether this general discussion is in Order.
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think a general discussion upon the policy of the Government in regard to its Measures would be in Order.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: Of course I bow to your ruling, and I do not wish to enter into any general discussion of the measures the Government are bringing forward, but I wish to urge that it is important they should not undertake legislation after cloven o'clock at night, and that it is not dealing fairly by their supporters, the House, and the country for the Government to bring forward so much legislation at an hour like this. The Appellate Jurisdiction Bill is another Bill they are bringing forward after eleven o'clock, and in order to see that it does not pass into law we are compelled to sit up night after night. The Pilotage Bill is another Bill creating a large number of fresh posts.
Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's point would be made if he pointed simply to the Order Paper and said there are ten or twelve Bills.
2.0 A.M.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: Quite so, Mr. Speaker. There are thirteen Bills on the Order Paper to-day—an evil number—but the Pilotage Bill is coming back to us as soon as it gets through the Committee stage. All these measures are brought forward and pushed through the House of Commons after eleven o'clock at night. I do maintain that, however much claim the
702
Government may have upon its followers to support these Bills at any hour of the day or night, it is not likely to secure good results if they carry on their legislation in this way. It is especially unfortunate when the Government force their followers to swallow at this hour of the night Conservative Bills which have been adopted at the pistol's point by the Government, particularly when as in this case, the Bill is the outcome of hysterical hypocrisy, and inflicts a blot upon the Statute Book in the re-enactment of torture in punishment. I for one do not like this Bill. I believe it is merely introduced in order to satisfy the prurient cravings of a lot of people in the country. I believe it has been made worse by the Amendments in the House of Lords, and I hope that this House will, at any rate, attempt to consider the matter seriously, and not simply take it up as a child takes up a plaything at the end of a long day's work. I am not surprised that some hon. Members laugh. It is not surprising that people get their metaphors mixed at Two o'clock in the morning. I am quite certain I have the sympathy and unanimous support of the House in not wanting to go on discussing for six hours a Bill which the greater number of Members know in their hearts will produce no good result, and which has been simply introduced in order to please certain parties outside. There is one argument that is brought forward, I understand, by the other side urging us to deal with this Bill even at this late hour. It is that unless we pass the Bill to-night it will not be possible to put the Act into force before the Christmas holidays. The House of Lords are not going to sit any longer, and unless we pass the Bill to-night the last chance will have gone of saving the thousands of helpless girls who are to be carried away by the visionary kidnappers during the Christmas holidays. If the Bishops and the Archbishops want to make a present of this Bill to the people of the country for Christmas they will get the House of Lords to come back and sit during the next few days. There are Members on this side of the House—Scotch Members— who are having their finer feelings outraged and harrowed by being forced to come back here on New Year's Eve. After all, if the Scotch Members can so far forego their natural pleasures at the festive season to come back and assist this House to legislate on New Year's Eve, I think we might ask the Bishops and Archbishop

703
and the Noble Lords in another place to come back, too, and carry legislation which they believe will be so beneficient and which they voted for by an overwhelming majority of seven to one.
This Bill, of course, has to be passed now, but there is no hurry for passing it. It will do very well if we take part of it to-night and part to-morrow night. I would finally, as a last word, put before the Government, that it would be possible even now to avoid a lengthy discussion on all the details of these Amendments by promising that if we do discuss the Lords' Amendments to-night the Home Secretary will move to reject them en bloc and send the Bill back to the Lords as it left us after considerable discussion in Committee and on Report. If the Home Secretary will do that, I undertake that the Bill will be through in five minutes, but if he will not, then we must oppose the Amendments tooth and nail.
Mr. RADFORD: May I earnestly appeal to the Home Secretary not to proceed further with the measure to-night. The Bill, as amended by the House of Lords, raises questions not less important than what is really the primary subject matter of the measure, and it ought not to be discussed with the House in the languid state it is is now. Moreover, I appeal with some confidence to the right hon. Gentleman on another ground. I do not know if he heard, as I did, the words of the Prime Minister when this matter was mentioned to him at question time to-day. He said that he hoped that this Bill might be taken to-night unless the Divisions on the Home Rule Bill took too long. It is notorious that the Divisions have taken a very long time, and I feel certain that if the Prime Minister himself were here and were reminded of his promise he would say it would be a breach of faith if the House were to proceed to deal with this measure to-night. I do earnestly appeal to the Home Secretary, and with some confidence, to redeem the promise made to the House by the Prime Minister.
Mr. McKENNA: It is obvious that the discussion can only be carried on with the general assent of the House. I think it is equally obvious that it is the strong wish of the great majority of hon. Members present in the House now that this Bill should be taken to-night. Let me remind my hon. Friends of one or two very salient facts. This Bill received a
704
Third Reading in this House without opposition. It was the unamimous wish of this House that this Bill might become law. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) alleges that the reason we wish to take the Bill now is that if we do not do so the House of Lords cannot reconsider it before Christmas. That is not the reason. If we do not take the Bill to-night it cannot get the Royal Assent next Friday. As the Royal Commission sits next Friday, unless we carry the Bill to-night we shall have to wait at least a month before a new Commission will sit to give the Royal Assent. It is not a question of not getting the Bill through another place; but it is undoubtedly true that the Bill cannot become law before Christmas unless the Amendments are considered now.
Upon the general subjects of the Amendments, I believe I am quite correct in saying that there is only one Amendment on which the Lords have disagreed with the contentions of the House of Commons. Every other Amendment simply carries out a pledge which I gave during the passage of the Bill through this House, construing, so far as I could, what was the general desire of the House at the time. With the single exception to which I shall refer in a moment there was no other Amendment carried in the Lords that did not conform to the views generally expressed here. In the case of that exception, I admit to those of my hon. Friends who take a strong view with regard to flogging that the House of Lords have struck out words which on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) were inserted in the Bill in this House, and I propose on that Amendment to ask the House not to agree with the Lords' Amendment. I believe I am correct in saying that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Fareham (Mr. Arthur Lee) will support me in that view. It comes to this, therefore, that the only Amendment on which in another place the views of this House have not been accepted. I propose to ask this House not to agree with. In these circumstances I would suggest, as so many hon. Members have been good enough to stay till this late hour, that we should be allowed to proceed with the Bill to-night.
Mr. ARTHUR LEE: May I add my appeal to that of the Home Secretary? I think the House knows that whilst the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Wedgwood) has been good enough to credit the Bill

705
entirely to me it is a Bill which has been fashioned with the consent and goodwill of all parties in the House of Commons. It is a Bill which represents, I think, in an unusual degree the will of the whole House. I quite agree that some explanation is necessary as to why it is desired to take the Bill at this time of the night; but whilst it may seem to hon. Members who are not perhaps aware of the whole facts, somewhat unnecessary that the Bill should be discussed on this particular night, when we have been kept up late. I would ask them to consider this one circumstance, namely, that, as was pointed out by the Home Secretary, unless the Bill receives the Royal Assent on Friday its coming into operation will be delayed for about a month.
It so happens— and I have been in very close touch with this subject for twelve months—that reports are coining in from sources which cannot be disbelieved to the effect that people engaged in this particular class of traffic are making an exceptional effort to reap a substantial harvest before this Bill can become law, and it is the time of year in which the perils are greater than at any other time. During the Christmas shopping, when an unusally large number of young girls are about the streets, it is of urgent importance, in the opinion of people who are in a position to judge, that this Bill should come into operation at the earliest possible moment. Therefore, I do think the circumstances are quite exceptional, and I do appeal to the House to treat them as exceptional, and to make a liberal extra sacrifice of time in order to pass what is really only a formal stage. The particular Amendment to which exception has been taken by many hon. Members opposite is disagreed with by the Home Secretary, and, so far as I may speak for the promoters of the Bill, I also am of opinion that that Amendment should be disagreed with, not because I do not think it is a good Amendment, but because I recollect that on the Report stage of the Bill in this House an arrangement was come to with the hon. Member for Peterborough, in order to facilitate the completion of the Report stage, that these words should be inserted in the Bill, and, therefore, I consider we are morally bound to respect the bargain made. These words were taken out by an Amendment of the House of Lords, and the Home Secretary proposes—and I shall certainly support him—to reinstate the words in the Bill. Under these circum-
706
stances I do feel that we are not only justified, but circumstances demand that we should proceed with this measure and complete this stage to-night.
Mr. J. MARTIN: I oppose the House proceeding with this Bill on the same grounds that I have opposed proceeding with all the Bills that the Government have introduced after Eleven o'clock at night for the past two or three weeks. I am not opposed to the Bill; I am in favour of it, with the exception of the Flogging Clause. I oppose the Bill for different reasons from those of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. A great many of us are opposed to taking this or any Bill at this hour of the night. The hon. Member for Fareham, and a large number of Members behind him, insist on having this Bill to-night because otherwise its operation may be delayed for a month. How long has this country been without this Bill? I would like to say to the hon. Member for Fareham that, if he had applied his eloquence to his Friends behind him and suggested to them that, instead of wasting three hours in the Division Lobby they should, at any rate, have cut off one hour I believe we could reasonably have considered these Amendments, but we certainly cannot do so at a quarter-past two in the morning. The Government insists on our being here all the time to keep them from the danger of "snap" Divisions. [Cries of "Divide."] Being only a Liberal Member, they now wish to prevent me from speaking. I certainly object to that, and I object to the whole proceedings. The Home Secretary says it would be unreasonable to consider any Bill at this hour of the morning, but, because a large majority of the Conservative party want to consider this Bill, a minority of Liberals are not to be taken into account at all. I submit that it would be most unseemly, in order to put this Bill on the Statute Book one month earlier, that we should conduct our proceedings in this way. There must be some reason. The hon. Gentleman told us the reason was that he had been persuaded that if we did not put this Bill upon the Statute Book a great many girls would get into difficulties during the Christmas holidays. I have no doubt at all the hon. Gentleman believes that, and that he has the utmost confidence in the intelligence that was conveyed to him by certain persons unknown to this House with regard to the matter; but if this House is going to act on that information it ought to know what

707
that information is. There are police in this country. The hon. Gentleman has now warned them that special efforts are going to be made to press this traffic so as to make the most of the time that is left. Surely we can rely upon the police seeing that, at any rate, the traffic is not worse in the coming month than it has been all these years. Under those circumstances I join with my hon. Friend and appeal to the Government, at any rate, to treat with consideration a number of their followers: being a small minority, it is all the more reason why they should receive such treatment, rather than that the Government should play into the hands of Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House who have absolutely wasted three or four hours of our time to-night already. Having submitted to that willingly in support of the Government, we are now to be compelled by the iron hand of the Government to sit here for three hours more in order to satisfy the hon. Member for Fareham and his friends. How does the right hon. Gentleman know that the whole House is agreeable to these Amendments?
What I should like to ask is, how can we consider seriously the questions that will come before us and put. our seal on the Amendments made by the House of Lords in the circumstances in which we now are. [An HON. MEMBER: "Divide."] This is the new style of Parliamentary discussion. When a Member tries to put the case in support of arguments advanced by his friends he is met with cries of "Divide, divide." As I have said, I join most heartily in the appeal which has been made to the Home Secretary, and I do so as a friend of the Bill. A delay of one month is not going to make much difference to the Bill, and there is no reason to provoke any ill-feeling over the measure. I have supported the Bill, not only by my vote so far, but also by saying nothing about it. This is the first time I have raised my voice during all the long discussions which have taken place in this House upon the Bill. I now raise my voice to protest against the tyranny of the majority in this House. It is not the first time since I have been in the House that I have noticed that when the occupants of the two Front Benches arrange something all the other Members of the House of Commons are simply as nothing. They represent Constituencies it is true, but they are bound down by their party allegiance
708
—we on this side to those on the Treasury Bench, and they on the other side of those who sit on the Front Opposition Bench. Here we have a solemn contract entered into between the Home Secretary and the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Arthur Lee), that this Bill is to be shoved through the House to-night no matter what Members on the Back Benches may think about it. As a strong supporter of the Bill— [An HON. MEMBER: "Divide, divide."] Never during the discussion on the Bill have I interfered with it at all, and now that I venture to say a word I am to be howled down. But as the arrangement between the two Front Benches is made and the compact sealed, I suppose it is very little use to complain, though I still hope that the Home Secretary will listen to the appeal which has been addressed to him from this quarter of the House.
Mr. LYNCH: I wish to say very little on this subject to-night. The words which fell from the Home Secretary just now have materially altered the situation so far as I am concerned. I was one of those, as the House perhaps will remember, who opposed the Flogging Clause vehemently. I intended to oppose also to-night the enforcement of flogging by the Lords, but I recognise that in the circumstances the Homo Secretary has gone as far as it is possible for him to do. Taking the whole of the conditions into account, and recognising the difficulties in regard to time which the Government have to overcome, I feel that that expression from the right hon. Gentleman has completely disarmed my own opposition.
Mr. ARNOLD WARD: As a supporter of this Bill I can assure the House that I do not wish to say anything that would jeopardise the Royal Assent being obtained on Friday. But I should like to ask, Why is it necessary to take the Bill to-night in order to obtain the Royal Assent on that day? Why would it not be possible, to discuss the Bill for a short period to-morrow afternoon?
Mr. McKENNA: It is an allotted day for the Home Rule Bill.
Mr. ARNOLD WARD: I know that Home Rule has been made the first Order of the day; but would it not be possible for the Government to change its plan with the assent of the House? The Government should, I think, recognise the fact that the Bill is, from the point of view of

709
the ordinary elector and constituent, the most important Bill of the Session. Hon. Members on all sides have probably had, as I have had, far more letters about this Bill, not only from individuals, but from societies and other private bodies, than they have had about any of the three great controversial Bills introduced by the Government this Session. It is not reasonable to ask us to deal at this time of the night with the very serious Amendments made by the Lords, and I hope that the Government may see their way to give us time tomorrow for that purpose.
Sir ARTHUR MARKHAM: The hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Martin) got up just now and made a violent attack on Members on the Government and Opposition sides about being howled down by cries of "Divide." During the course of his speech one Member on the Government Benches above the Gangway said, "Divide." Is that being howled down? What I have risen for really is to ask the Government to go on with the Bill. A few cranks sitting on these Benches——
Mr. BOOTH: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to ask you whether the term "crank" as applied to hon. Members is a Parliamentary expression?
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think it is very un-Parliamentary.
Sir ARTHUR MARKHAM: I do not know whether, in a figurative sense, the lion. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) is a jackal of these hon. Members. I only wish to point out this, that all the slob-berring sentimentalism from the cranks sitting here is not going to prejudice the House of Commons when the overwhelming majority of the House is in favour of proceeding with the Measure. The hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Martin) said that he would not have objected to the Bill being taken if we had finished the Divisions two hours ago. That is to say he would have not objected to it being taken at one o'clock, and yet earlier in the same speech he said that no Bill should be taken after eleven o'clock. Therefore, let us not waste further time, but decide to sit up and get the Bill passed.
Mr. PRINGLE: I must say that in common with a number of other Members in this part of the House I have admired greatly the display of puritanical fervour which has just been witnessed on the part of the hon. Baronet the Member for Mans-
710
field. I am glad to find that he has the utmost contempt for all cranks. Quite voluntarily I have had to associate a good deal with him in this part of the House since I entered Parliament about three years ago, and during all that period I have been very much impressed with the tendency he has shown to act on almost every conceivable occasion with cranks. I have noticed that on almost all occasions he has joined with those who have protested against the arbitrary and tyrannical action of the Government, especially at times when there has been a conspiracy between the two Front Benches to get business through. I feel that I am entitled to refer to this strange conversion of the hon. and titled Member for the Mansfield Division, but I would remind him that had the question before the House been the Appellate Jurisdiction Bill or the creation of an extra judge he would have been the first to protest against such an important matter being dealt with at this hour of the morning.
I think I can speak on this subject without being accused of being a crank. The appeal made by the hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood), the hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Radford) and the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Martin) is, I contend, one that should have been more sympathically treated by the Home Secretary. My right hon. Friend might have borne in mind when replying just now the statement made by the Prime Minister this afternoon when the question was put to the Prime Minister whether this Bill would be taken after half-past Ten, the right hon. Gentleman said in reply that the Bill would be taken only if no long time were occupied over the Divisions in Committee on the Home Rule Bill. That I submit was an expressed condition and it was understood by the House as such. Had that promise been given to the Front Opposition Bench, right hon. Gentlemen on the other side would have insisted on it being fulfilled to the letter, and when a small minority below the Gangway on this side—all, mind you, supporters of the Government—are equally insistent on the fulfilment of pledges I do not think they should be thrown overboard as is now proposed. I would point out that there will be plenty of other opportunities of proceeding with this Bill if we do not take it to-night. Surely Friday is not the only occasion in the near future on which there can be a Royal Commission. Only three Noble

711
Lords are required to constitute a Royal Commission and they can be brought together at any time. There are seventy-two Scottish Members who will have to be here on New Year's eve, and it would not be a great hardship to get together three Noble Lords to form a Royal Commission on some day after next Friday. Surely, in these circumstances, there could be another Commission for this Bill, which is alleged to be so necessary, although the grounds for this necessity have never been proved to this House. The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) and his friends are constantly making wild and vague general statements about the enormous evils which this Bill is intended to remedy; but when they are asked to adduce concrete facts, no concrete facts are ever put before us. My point is this, that there is no such urgency as is alleged. After the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University
(Mr. Rawlinson) proposed an Amendment on the Report stage, he was asked to state a case for the Amendment, and he then said that no case had been brought before him which made it necessary to give extra power to the police. The only concrete case he gave to the House was one in which the police could have acted with their present powers. With only these facts before the House, we are urged upon these hypercritical grounds of urgency, at this time of the morning, to pass a Bill interfering seriously with individual liberty, and also introducing a barbarous punishment into our criminal law. I think it is scandalous, and I think the right hon. Gentleman would have been well advised to listen to the appeal which had been made to him.
Question put, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."
The House divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 18.

Division No. 442.]

AYES.

2.37 a.m.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Adamson, William

Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Arnold, Sydney

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

Joyce, Michael

Baird, John Lawrence

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Keating, Matthew

Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

Falconer, James

Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

Balcarres, Lord

Falle, Bertram Godfray

Kilbride, Denis

Baldwin, Stanley

Farrell, James Patrick

King, J. (Somerset, North)

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Ffrench, Peter

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Field, William

Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

Barnes, G. N.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

Leach, Charles

Barnston, Harry

Fitzgibbon, John

Lee, Arthur Hamilton

Barrie, H. T.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Lewis, John Herbert

Barton, William

France, Gerald Ashburner

Lewisham, Viscount

Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

Gill, A. H.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Gilmour, Captain John

Lundon, Thomas

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Ginnell, Laurence

Lynch, A. A.

Renn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Bentham, G. J.

Glanville, H. J.

Maclean, Donald

Bird, Alfred

Griffith, Ellis J.

Macmaster, Donald

Black, Arthur W.

Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

Macpherson, James Ian

Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

Gulland, John William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Bowerman, C. W.

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

M'Curdy, C. A.

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Hackett, John

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding)

Brace, William

Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

Manfield, Harry

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

Bryce, J. Annan

Hardle, J. Keir

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

Meagher, Michael

Carina, Sir Edward Hildred

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hayden, John Patrick

Millar, James Duncan

Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

Hazleton, Richard

Molloy, Michael

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

Mond, Sir Alfred M.

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

Chambers, James

Henry, Sir Charles

Munro, R.

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

Clive, Captain Percy Archer

Higham, John Sharp

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Clough, William

Hills, John Waller

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

Nolan, Joseph

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Courthope, George Loyd

Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Crooks, William

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Doherty, Philip

Crumley, Patrick

Hughes, S. L.

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

Cullinan, John

Illingworth, Percy H.

O'Shee, James John

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Dawes, J. A.

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Doris, William

John, Edward Thomas

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Doughty, Sir George

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

Duffy, William J.

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Spear, Sir John Ward

Waring, Walter

Reddy, M.

Stanier, Beville

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Rendall, Athelstan

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Richards, Thomas

Starkey, John Ralph

White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Stewart, Gershom

Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Talbot, Lord E.

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Robinson, Sidney

Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

Wills, Sir Gilbert

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

Toulmin, Sir George

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Sanders, Robert Arthur

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Sheeny, David

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Rowntree and Mr. James Hope.

Sherwell, Arthur James

Verney, Sir Harry

Shortt, Edward

NOES.

Booth, Frederick Handel

Martin, Joseph

Sutton, John E.

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Morrell, Philip

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

Outhwaite, R. L.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Pointer, Joseph

Watt, Henry Anderson

Hancock, J. G.

Radford, G. H.

Hogge, James Myles

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Pringle and Mr. Wedgwood.

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rlnd, Cockerm'th)

Sutherland, J. E.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments considered.
Lords Amendment: After Clause 1, insert Clause (a):— In paragraphs (3) and (4) of Section (2) of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, the words "or frequent" shall be inserted after the words "an inmate of" wherever those words occur.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I beg to move "That this House do disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment." I take this course because I think it would be more simple to deal with Amendments en bloc rather than seriatim.
Mr. SPEAKER: They cannot be dealt with en bloc; they must be dealt with seriatim.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: Is it out of order to move "That this House do not agree with the Lords Amendments"?
Mr. SPEAKER: That sort of Motion would not be in order. The House has decided to consider the Amendments, and we must now proceed to consider them.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I trust the House will forgive me if, in dealing with the first Amendment, I touch upon the other Amendments.
Mr. SPEAKER: That would not be permissible. The hon. Member must confine himself strictly to the first Amendment.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I am afraid it would be rather difficult for me to make my case quite clear against the first Amendment. The first Amendment is an addition to the Bill as it left this House, but it is not an addition to the Bill as it was originally drafted, and as it left the Grand Committee upstairs. The fact of the matter is that in another place they have inserted in the Bill words which we cut out on the Report stage in this House—words which we cut out for the very specific reasons that they were not sufficiently definite and might give rise to the possibility of very serious danger arising from them. If the House will be good enough to look at the Amendment they will see that it refers to paragraphs (3) and (4) of Section 2 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885. The Lords desire that after the words "an inmate of," we should add the words "or frequent." And if the House will refer to the Third Section in the Act, they will see that it deals with procurers, and it provided that any person who procures or attempts to procure any woman or girl to leave her usual place of abode in the United Kingdom with intent that she may for the purposes of prostitution become an inmate of "or frequent" a brothel, and so on. When you have the word inmate then you are dealing with the specific offence of procuring or confining a woman about which I daresay hon. Gentlemen opposite have read all sorts of stories respecting women being decoyed into the place, having their clothes stolen, and being locked in so that they could not even open the window to shout for the

715
police. Such stories have no verisimilitude, and I do not believe stories unsubstantiated by a tittle of evidence, and when there is not given the names and addresses of the persons to whom such things are supposed to have happened. This addition is a serious one. To be an inmate is a matter which can be proved, but to frequent is difficult of proof. The man who brings round the milk in the morning and the domestic servant might be described as frequenting a house. The case was admirably stated to the House by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, and other hon. Members when these words were cut out on the Report stage, because the House felt that it was not desirable that you should give to the police of this country such very wide powers as would be given them by the insertion of vague words such as "frequent." The House of Commons has twice running made it quite clear that these words are too vague for an Act of Parliament. In the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, the words are not inserted; Parliament decided that they should not be inserted; they considered that it would be undesirable and unsafe for the liberty of the citizen that these words should be inserted. The House of Lords, led by the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, have thought otherwise, and so we are asked to set aside the decision of this House and reinsert the words. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should be the last people to ask the House to reverse its decision, for they have recently made very strenuous efforts to prevent this House changing its view upon a particular matter. But directly the decision, twice taken in this House, happens not to meet with the approval of a majority in another place we are asked at ten minutes to Three in the morning, with any possibility of adequate discussion, to reverse the decision we took previously and to stultify ourselves in this matter, and merely in order to enable the hon. Member for Fareham and the hon. Baronet the Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. B. Mark-ham), and their friends to put in these extremely vague words. The hon. Baronet talks much about sentimentalism, but he has supported a Bill like this against all the other cranks in the House.
Sir A. MARKHAM: That is what you would expect from a single-taxer.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I do not want this Debate to degenerate into a slanging match between the hon. Baronet and myself. The hon. Baronet comes here with his record which every student of history knows——
Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. Member to confine himself to this Debate.
Mr. RAFFAN: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I desire to ask whether the hon. Baronet is entitled to apply to another Member of this House the term "single-taxer."
Mr. SPEAKER: I have yet to learn that it is a term of opprobrium.
Mr. RAFFAN: I submit to you, with great respect, whether he is entitled to apply it to any hon. Member as a term of reproach.
Mr. SPEAKER: Every hon. Member can fit the cap for himself.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I do not propose to proceed with the past history and character of the hon. Baronet. I urge the House to disagree with this particular Amendment of the House of Lords being put in without any discussion or debate whatsoever. Simply because the House of Commons cut it out on Report, they have inserted it in the House of Lords. I trust that, at any rate, we may have from the Home Secretary, from the hon. Member for Fareham, and from all those energetic supporters of the Bill who are here in such great numbers, those reasons which lead them to desire the re-insertion of these words, and which may be necessary in the interests of girlhood and all the rest of the humbug—the sentimentality of the Opposition passes comprehension. Do they imagine that this Bill is really going to regenerate the world?
Mr. SPEAKER: I must again ask the hon. Member to confine himself to the Amendments.
Mr. WEDGWOOD: I am very sorry, Mr. Speaker, I got led away by interruptions. The Amendment is a dangerous one from the point of view of the liberty of the subject. It is an Amendment which was deliberately struck out by the House of Commons itself, and it is an Amendment to insert words which it is impossible to define accurately so as to ensure justice being done, and I hope we shall not allow it to be inserted without very adequate reasons given by people who have practical experience.
Mr. McKENNA: The hon. Member in the course of his speech said no less than four times that these words were struck out on the Report stage of this Bill. So far as my recollection goes, and after a careful search of the Bill as it came down from upstairs, there is no foundation for that statement. My recollection is that upon the Report stage the inclusion of these words was moved by the hon. Member for Inverness Burghs. There was a general opinion in favour of the words, and I undertook to propose that they should be inserted in another place if, after taking competent legal advice, it was considered advisable to do so. Having received that assurance, the words were proposed in another place and were accepted without opposition. The whole story put forward by the hon. Member as to what occurred on the Report stage is pure fiction.
Question put.
The House proceeded to a Division, and Mr. Speaker stated he thought the Ayes had it. On his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was frivolously claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who challenged his decision to rise in their places, and declared the Ayes had it, seven Members only who had challenged his decision having stood up.

CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

  CLAUSE 6.—(Amendments of 61 and 62 Viet. c.39, and 2 Edw. 7. c 11.)
  (1) In Section 1 of the Vagrancy Act, 1898, and in Section 1 of the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, in Sub-section (3) (which deals with the evidence of living on the earnings of prostitution) there shall be substituted for the words "and has no visible means of subsistence" the words "or is proved to have exercised control, direction, or influence over the movements of a prostitute in such a manner as to show that he is aiding, abetting, or compelling her prostitution with any other person."
  (2) The period of imprisonment with hard labour which may be awarded to a person deemed to be a rogue and vagabond under the Vagrancy Act, 1898, or to a person convicted summarily of a crime and offence under the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, shall be increased to six months [but such person shall not be liable to be dealt with as an incorrigible rogue within the meaning of the Vagrancy Act, 1824].
  (3) The Vagrancy Act, 1898, as amended by this Section, shall extend to Ireland
  718
  with this modification, that for the words "be deemed a rogue and vagabond within the meaning of the Vagrancy Act, 1824, and be liable to be dealt with accordingly" there shall be substituted the words "be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months with hard labour."
  (4) A person charged with an offence under the Vagrancy Act, 1898, or the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, may, instead of being proceeded against in England as a rogue and vagabond, or in Scotland or Ireland summarily, be proceeded against on indictment, and on conviction on indictment shall be liable to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years, and, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction, the court may sentence the offender to be once privately whipped, and the number of strokes and the instrument with which they shall be inflicted shall be specified by the court in the sentence.
  (5) The wife of a person charged with an offence under cither of the said Acts may be called as a witness either for the prosecution or defence and without the consent of the person charged, but nothing in this provision shall affect a case where the wife of a person charged with an offence may at common law be called as a witness without the consent of that person.
  Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1) after the word "person" ["compelling her prostitution with any other person"] insert the words "or generally."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: May we have some arguments from the Home Secretary as to why these words are inserted? I am sorry we have got no arguments from him for the insertion of the previous words, and I hope we may have some explanation in this instance. In order to produce that, I beg to move that this House doth not agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
  Mr. McKENNA: Unless the words "or generally" are inserted in a case of this kind the prosecution would have to prove that prostitution was compelled with a particular person. It: will be remembered that the words "any other" were inserted on the Report stage, and, adding these

  719
  words, "or generally," will now make the Clause agree in form with Section 7 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885. It is purely a drafting Amendment making the two cases correspond.
  Lords Amendment: In Clause 6, Subsection (2), leave out the words, "But such person shall not be liable to be dealt with as an incorrigible rogue within the meaning of the Vagrancy Act, 1824," and to insert instead thereof the words, "But nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the powers of a court of summary jurisdiction to deal with a person deemed to be a rogue and vagabond under the Vagrancy Act, 1898, anything in any other Act to the contrary notwithstanding."
  Mr. McKENNA: I beg to move "That this House do not agree with the Lords in omission of words, 'But such person shall not be liable to be dealt with as an incorrigible rogue within the meaning of the Vagrancy Act, 1824.'"
  I shall propose later to agree with the Lords in the words added to the Amendment. As already stated, the words omitted in another place were inserted in the Bill on an Amendment by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. G. Greenwood). The effect of them is to ensure that the flogging shall in no case be inflicted except after trial by jury. Consequently, although on other grounds it might be desirable that the complete Amendment should be accepted, I think the House should adhere to the arrangement made with the hon. Member for Peterborough.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps it may be better to divide this into two.
  Amendment divided.
  So much of the Lords Amendment as proposes to leave out the words, "But such person shall not be liable to be dealt with as an incorrigible rogue within the meaning of the Vagrancy Act, 1824," disagreed to.
  Lords Amendment: To insert the words "But nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the powers of a court of summary jurisdiction to deal with a person deemed to be a rogue and vagabond under the Vagrancy Act. 1808, anything in any other Act to the contrary notwithstanding."
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I think we might have some reasons as to why this addition should be made to the Clause. I understood from the Home Secretary that he was going to disagree with this Amendment of the Lords. We were told by the Prime Minister that we were not going on with this subject very late, and now we are told that the Home Secretary has decided, after all, to accept this Amendment from the House of Lords. We ought to have a very clear reason why the right hon. Gentleman has accepted these words which, as far as I remember from the speeches of the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) and the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. George, Greenwood), give to a magistrate powers which, according to the dictum of the Lord Advocate, they do not at present possess. We ought to be very chary of further extending the powers of the magistrates under the Vagrancy Act. If the right hon. Gentleman accepted an Amendment which made it possible for a sentence to be given for a first offence, what is the object of adding these further words, "But nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the powers of a court of summary jurisdiction to deal with a person deemed to be a rogue and vagabond under the Vagrancy Act, 1898."
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: May I suggest to the hon. Member opposite that the Government are acting on their responsibility assisted by competent Law Officers. They have stated that, with the exception of the Amendments already agreed to in this House in principle, no change is being made in this Bill from the shape in which it left the House of Commons. I think that relieves us from needless suggestions that departures are being made from the decision of this House. Therefore, however much the hon. Member may feel on the general question of flogging it is hardly fair at this hour of the morning to subject a Minister to needless criticism when he has given his assurance that no change except that already approved by the House of Commons has been made in this Bill.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I will just in a sentence explain to my hon. Friend that really his anxiety is quite unfounded.

  721
  These words do not affect the question of flogging at all, and the only point of their insertion is to enable a magistrate to pass this sentence of six months' imprisonment without the prisoner having to go for trial. That is the whole effect of the Amendment and it does not, as I have said, touch the flogging question at all.
  Mr. BOOTH: I should like, to explain to my hon. Friend that you cannot flog a rogue and a vagabond. You can only flog an incorrigible rogue; that is to say, you can only flog after a second offence.
  Lords Amendment: To insert as a new Sub-section, after Sub-section (3):
  ("(4) Every person, of either sex, who acts as a pimp, souteneur, or bully, or otherwise for the purposes of gain aids or abets prostitution, shall be guilty of an offence under the Vagrancy Act, 1898, or in Scotland under the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, and those Acts as amended and extended by this section shall apply accordingly.")
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Mr. McKENNA: I wish to inform the House what occurred on the Report stage. In various Amendments the proposal was made that women who were of the same character as an ordinary souteneur and bully should be equally subject to penalties with men other than the penalty of flogging, I undertook that, inasmuch as the case of women was in material circumstances different from that of men, I would find words if possible to carry out what appears to be the wish of the House in regard to women. The result of that promise is this Clause as it now stands. It is really a women's Clause, and I put it forward to the House as an effort to carry out what was the opinion and wish of the House.
  Mr. RADFORD: I desire to move that the House do not agree with the Lords in this Amendment. I am, I must confess, astonished at the language of the speech just made by the Home Secretary. He tells us that this Clause has been inserted in order to impose penalties on women who commit acts analogous to the act of procuration. I would like Members of the
  722
  House to consider the terms of the Clause.
  "Every person of either sex,"
  That is not a woman's Clause, whatever the Home Secretary may think.
  "who acts as a pimp, souteneur, or bully."
  Is a woman likely to act as such? [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] Very well, I will return to those words presently. Up to this point there is, surely, nothing in the Clause which specially refers to women. It goes on:—
  "or otherwise for the purposes of gain, aids or abets prostitution, shall be guilty of an offence under the Vagrancy Act, 1898, or in Scotland under the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, and those Acts as amended and extended by this Section shall apply accordingly."
  I am not concerned with the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act—I do not understand the Scotch law but I am concerned with the Vagrancy Act, 1898. That is an Act which applies to England and incorporates by reference the Vagrancy Act, 1824, which imposes the penalty of flogging that we are considering on this and other Clauses.
  Mr. ARTHUR LEE: May I point out to the hon. Member that flogging is expressly excluded in the case of women.
  Mr. RADFORD: I am aware of that. The Vagrancy Act, 1824, does not allow the flogging of women. My point is this, that so far from this being a Clause, which is intended for women, it applies specially to men. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary and the Attorney - General whether that is not so, and if it is so then I think the House has been led into a position which it does not desire to occupy. Let me remind the House of what has happened in regard to this subject of flogging. When we were discussing the Bill here, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, who is rather a timid torturer, if I may say so, and not so full-blooded in his ferocity as the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lee), wished to limit flogging for the offence named in Clause 2 to a second offence. But the House ran away from the Home Secretary, being excited by a rather inflammatory message from Scotland Yard, and the right hon. Gentleman was overborne.
  Mr. McKENNA: If it will meet my hon. Friend I will make the words "every female person."
  Mr. RADFORD: I am aware that since 1824, women have been immune from flogging. I am very glad to get even the small concession from the Government which the right hon. Gentleman has promised, because in my opinion flogging is a repulsive form of punishment, whether practised in Putumayo or within the walls of an English prison. As far as I can judge at this late hour of the night, the concession which is offered to me by the right hon. Gentleman will remove a fatal blot on the Bill.
  Sir W. P. BYLES: I should really like to know how this concession which has been made to my hon. Friend does exclude women from flogging and meet the objections which have just been raised.
  Mr. McKENNA: I am in jour hands, Mr. Speaker, but I should be glad if the Amendment could be altered to read "every female person" instead of "persons of either sex." It really means the same thing. The substance of the Clause is not altered, and the change I suggest is merely a matter of form.
  Mr. RADFORD: May I say one word on this concession. If the Clause is to read "Every female person who acts as a pimp, souteneur, or bully," then I submit that the words are very ill-chosen. I do not think that in literature you will find the word "pimp" applied to women, and I am certain that you will not find the word "souteneur."
  An HON. MEMBER: It is "who acts as."
  Mr. RADFORD: Apart from the objection that the words are peculiarly unlikely faithfully to describe the acts of a female person, I do not think, although you can find these foul words in the literature of the seventeenth century especially, that they have ever been copied into Acts of Parliament. But I am not responsible for this Clause, and I accept the concession which has been promised by the Home Secretary.
  Mr. BARNES: It may seem very ungracious on my part to object to this particular Sub-section, seeing that the Home Secretary promised to put the provision in
  724
  on my Motion. I do not like the Subsection because of the vagueness of the words. It seems to me that this Subsection is really creating a new offence. When we had the matter under discussion before, Ave were dealing with an offence as set out in the first Sub-section of Clause 6, an offence of a different character altogether to that which we are now dealing with, which is that of being proved to be living on the earnings of prostitution or "proved to have exercised control, direction, or influence over the movements of a prostitute in such a manner as to show that he is aiding, abetting, or compelling her prostitution." It seems to me to be a different thing altogether, and I think we ought to have some such words in this Sub-section as the words dealt with when the Bill was discussed before.
  Mr. MOLTENO: If the Home Secretary would abandon this Amendment it would be very satisfactory to us, because the words seem to us so extraordinary vague and unsatisfactory. The language is of a very general character and is really not concrete. We have already had illustrations of the danger of such vague words in the case of the Vagrancy Act of 1824. And that experience shows how careful we have to be in using the proper words.
  Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT: Is the definition really effective? Some of us feel that it is rather hasty and vague. Those of us who are not lawyers are a little doubtful as to whether we are not suggesting something which the courts may not be able to carry out as Parliament intends.
  Mr. ARTHUR LEE: The word "souteneur," although not an English word, is well understood, and then there are the words "pimp" and "bully." I do not know whether it is possible to put in the exact definition which we desire those words should have.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I really hesitate to detain the House any longer, especially after the appeal of the hon. and learned Member opposite. I should explain that I am only too willing to accept the dictum of the Home Secretary, only he told us the other day that he was guided in his decision by the police. I have a very wide suspicion of the police in this matter. This seems to me a corrupt policeman's further endowment act. I do not want to accept even from the Home Secretary a dictum

  725
  or legislation which is based merely upon the desires of the police, who already have, in my opinion, sufficient powers to suppress the white slave traffic. This Amendment, even if accepted with the modification proposed by the Home Secretary, will be a very dangerous addition to the Bill. See what it means! It embraces servant girls who open the front door of the house, because it might be said that they are aiding and abetting prostitution. Take the case, however deplorable, of the mother of a prostitute. She for purposes of gain is kept by her daughter and aids and abets prostitution. Do you intend to punish this woman by six months' imprisonment? The prostitute will be a woman of between twenty and thirty years of age and able to look after herself. However great the moral crime of living upon a daughter's prostitution, there is not the slightest right to send a woman to six months' imprisonment because she does knowing or "under the rose" live upon her daughter's vice. For all these reasons, I hope the Clause will be left out in spite of the appeal of the hon. Member for Fare-ham. I know well enough what a dangerous Member he is, and what a strong influence he exercises, not only upon his own side, but upon our Front Bench as well. I do not think at this late hour it is possible for the House to properly consider the measure, and I do not think we should include in the Amendment of the measure a large new class of persons. I, therefore, think that we should adjourn in order that we should have the Amendment put before us in the amended form proposed by the Home Secretary. We should consider it on its merits, and see whether we are carrying out the intention of the Home Secretary and of the hon.
  Member for Fareham, or whether we are doing what I think we are, opening the floodgates to a large new class of crime and of criminals. I beg to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I think there is some force in part of the, criticism which has been directed to this Clause. I do not like myself the words, and I think it would puzzle anyone in this House to define them accurately. I confess myself, although I have a general notion of what the words mean, that if I were a judge I should find it rather difficult to decide what the words "pimp," "bully," and "souteneur" really mean. Therefore, as I dislike the words, and as they create an offence, on the whole I should certainly prefer that they should be left out. It seems to me there are words which I think are very useful, such as aiding and abetting the commission of an offence, which are well understood in law, and which the judge would find no difficulty in summing up to the jury explaining exactly what they mean. The words in question are not known in our jurisprudence, and we do not understand them. The proper course is that we should disagree with this Clause and bring up a Clause containing only the offence of aiding and abetting.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of Order. Is not the question before the House that of the Adjournment of the Debate?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is so.
  Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  The House divided: Ayes, 7; Noes, 145.

  Division No. 443.]

  AYES.

  [3.30 a.m.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Radford, G. H.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood and F. Whyte.

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  NOES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Crumley, Patrick

  Adamson, William

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Cullinan, John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brace, William

  Dawes, J. A.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Doris, William

  Barnes, G. N.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Barrie, H. T.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Duffy, William J.

  Barton, William

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Bird, Alfred

  Clough, William

  Falconer, James

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Ffrench, Peter

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Crooks, William

  Field, William

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Leach, Charles

  Richards, Thomas

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Lundon, Thomas

  Robinson, Sidney

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Maclean, Donald

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Gulland, John William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Hackett, John

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Shortt, Edward

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Stanier, Beville

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Meagher, Michael

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Higham, John Sharp

  Munro, R.

  Sutton, John E.

  Hills, John Waller

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Hughes, S. L.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  O'Shee, James John

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Jones, Leil Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Ward, A. (Herts, Watford)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Webb, H.

  Joyce, Michael

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Keating, Matthew

  Pointer, Joseph

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  King, J. (Somerset, North)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Dundas White and Sir J. Spear.

  Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rind, Cockerm'th)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and negatived.
  Amendment proposed: Instead of Lords Amendment last disagreed to, insert as a new Sub-section:—
  "Every female who is proved to have exercised control, direction, or influence over the movements of a prostitute, in such a manner as to show that she is aiding, abetting, or compelling her prostitution with any person, or generally, shall be guilty of an offence under The Vagrancy Act, 1898, or in Scotland under the Immoral Traffic (Scotland) Act, 1902, and those Acts as amended and extended by this Section shall apply accordingly."— [Sir Rufus Isaacs.]
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The object of this is to create exactly the same offence for the woman as is created in respect of the man.
  Mr. RADFORD: Let me appeal once more earnestly to the Home Secretary not to proceed with this business at this time of night.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The House has decided by a large majority to go on.
  Mr. RADFORD: That was in regard to the adjournment of the Debate. I refer to this particular Clause.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It would be only raising exactly the same question the House has just decided. The hon. Member can take exception to this new Amendment proposed.
  Mr. RADFORD: That is what I am desiring to do. This Sub-section which it is proposed to introduce has been read by the Attorney-General and yourself, Mr. Speaker, and I venture to say that it is quite impossible for us to understand it as we ought when we are creating a new offence. It is a scandal that criminal legistion should be enacted in this manner. I myself, after sitting here until twenty minutes to four, confess I am quite unable to deal with the matter, and I think the majority on both sides are in the same condition.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I, on the other hand, am perfectly fresh still. Of course, it is useless to protest against having a new crime put on the Statute Book in the form of a drafting Amendment which we cannot see on the paper; but there was one point I listened to when the Amendment was read out, namely, whether the conjunction should be "and" or "or." Everyone who has discussed this Bill at all knows the importance of that conjunction. Was it to be "control, direction, and influence," or was it to be "control, direction, or influence"? It was not "and" but "or,"

  729
  and the presence of that word makes the word "compelling" absolutely valueless. You could not have a more vague word or a more vague crime than a person who is said to have influence over the movements of a prostitute.
  Why, even the writers of a great many books would be locked up under this proposal, because it cannot be disputed that they influence people. The fact is that you open the door extraordinarily wide if you put the words in. I ask the House to consider seriously before they make a new crime which will include more people even than the Amendment would have done as passed by the House of Lords. If you leave the Amendment so vague that anyone who is said to have any influence over a prostitute becomes liable to six months' imprisonment, I feel sure you will be likely to do great injustice to a great many people in this country. The servant girl comes in again and the mother comes in again. [An HON. MEMBER: "How about the widow."] Oh, the widow is only brought in where there is a financial interest.
  I do hope that even now the House will think better than to pass this extremely wide Amendment. I have not much confidence in the majority of the Members present voting against it, but I still think that if the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Arthur Lee) would drop the Clause the Bill would not be materially damaged. I do not think it will do much good at any time, but I am quite certain that if there are cases of people being prosecuted under this particular Clause you will have such an outcry going up from the people of this country at the monstrous injustice done that, in the first place, you will find it very difficult to put the law into operation, and, in the second place, if the law is put into operation juries will refuse to convict, because it will be so monstrous that people should be submitted to punishment for such a thing as this.
  Mr. RAWLINSON: I do not wish to oppose the Amendment, but I desire to ask whether, as drafted, it does not go a little bit farther than was intended. There is not a word in the drafted Amendment about "for the sake of gain" or anything of that kind. The idea during the discussion on Report in this House was to hit at the woman who lives on the earnings of a prostitute. In the Amendment, as drafted by the Attorney-General, there is not a word about making any money out of it. What I should like to
  730
  know is, do you mean to hit a case of the kind where there are two prostitutes working together and neither lives on the earnings of the other? One girl may be older than the other, and may, probably will, have a certain amount of influence over the other. That woman would fall within the proposed words, though I am perfectly sure it is not intended that she should. It is meant to apply where a man and a woman are associated in that way but I do not think you mean to stop two prostitutes living together under circumstances such as I have suggested.
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I think the difficulties suggested are really covered by the words we use, but in order that there may be no possible doubt about it I have not the slightest objection to put other words in. Certainly I did not intend that there should be a conviction unless the offence is committed for the purpose of gain. It will therefore read "every female who for the purpose of gain is proved to have exercised control," etc. I think that will meet the case.
  Amendment to proposed Amendment made: After the word "female" to insert the words, "for the purposes of gain."— [Sir Rufus Isaacs.]
  Sir J. SPEAR: I hope the Government will stand by their position in the matter, because I venture to say that those who have steadily supported the Bill believe that the earlier Clauses will deal with men carrying on the traffic and reduce the evil in that direction. But in consequence of that we are beginning to fear that more women may be induced to engage in the traffic. Therefore, to my mind, this is one of the most essential parts of the Bill, and unless it is carried we shall destroy the great value of a measure which, I believe, the whole country is anxious to see passed into law.
  Mr. BOOTH: In my judgment the Clause will be rendered inoperative by introducing the words "for gain." If those words are put in you will have to prove two things: That the woman was aiding and abetting prostitution, and that she was making a profit out of it. The lawyers, I am sure, will have a difficult task in proving that there was an actual financial gain, and the Clause will be a failure.
  Mr. BARNES: I think the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) is under a mis-

  731
  apprehension. As a simple matter of fact the words to which he refers are in the Clause in the case of the men. I am going to vote for this Sub-section as now proposed, because it seems to me that it carries out literally the promise made by the Home Secretary when the Bill was last under discussion in this House. On that occasion it was pointed out that women might engage in this trade as well as men, and therefore it was wrong to allow them to escape just punishment. The Home Secretary promised to frame a Sub-section that would deal with it, and now we have the women brought in, no new offence is created by the Sub-section, because we have here the same offence exactly as is dealt with in Sub-section (1) of Clause 6.
  Sir WILLIAM BYLES: I thought I heard an aside from the right hon. Gentleman, some half hour ago, in which he seemed to be willing to drop altogether this Amendment proposed by the Lords. I would suggest that if the Government were willing to disagree with this proposed Amendment they would get their Bill in five minutes. There really is a very considerable amount of doubt and dissatisfaction in this quarter of the House about the creation of a new crime in this hurried manner by rapid consultation on the Treasury Bench. It is an Amendment which we have not had an opportunity to discuss, and I feel it my duty to say that I do not like this way of creating criminal legislation. The hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) was kind enough to give us some very wise advice on this subject. If he will tell us, after his long experience of this House and of the Courts, what he thinks of this proposal and take a glance at the clock before he does so, I think the House will be glad.
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: I have no objection whatever. All the best legislation for Ireland was done between three and four o'clock in the morning. With regard to this particular Amendment, I have followed the action of the Government very closely and not in a very friendly spirit. But I am satisfied that what they have done is correct, and I am not sure that in yielding to the suggestion of my hon. Friend for Cambridge they have not gone a little too far. In driving males out of the traffic, let us take care that hags do not get into it. What is the safeguard that you have in this country, the enormous safeguard? It
  732
  is an honest judiciary and honest juries. You have the protection of twelve men of your own sort, and if a prisoner gets into the box and has a case at all—I can speak from my own experience so far as Ireland is concerned—the tendency is always, if there is any kind of decent excuse, for the jury to acquit. That is particularly the case in dealing with women prisoners. I do not think the charges will be multiplied. The police will get to know the kind of evidence which juries and judges will tolerate, and that is a great protection.
  Mr. PRINGLE: I am glad the hon. and learned Member has made some advance upon his attitude earlier in the evening. On the former occasion, he advised us to accept this Amendment without any question because we had the authority of the Government that no charge was made.
  Mr. McKENNA: I never said anything of the kind.
  Mr. PRINGLE: I am in the recollection of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Cork commended to us the Lords Amendment. He reminded us that some of the best legislation for Ireland was passed at three o'clock in the morning; I am sure it was not done with his consent on those conditions. I think that the charges the Government have made have justified the criticism which has taken place in this quarter of the House. I rise for this purpose, that the House should be clear as to what it is now doing. It is obvious that the words in Sub-section (1) of Clause 6 are intended to create a presumption that, if the conditions therein disclosed arise, it is being done for the sake of gain; but in the Sub-section, as applied to women, we now introduce the words "for the sake of gain," and consequently we state that the presumption which is applied to men is not applied to women. I think the House should be absolutely clear that it is not making the same offence for women as for men.
  4.0 A.M.
  Lords Amendment: Insert in Subsection (4), after the word "conviction" ["in the case of a second or subsequent conviction"], the words "such second or subsequent conviction being a conviction on indictment."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Could we be told the object of this Amendment?
  Mr. McKENNA: It is in order to make it perfectly clear that nobody shall be flogged except after trial by jury.
  Lords Amendment: After the word "offender" ["sentence the offender to be once privately whipped"], insert the words "if a male."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I desire to ask whether it is necessary that this Amendment should be put in. I understood that the Bill as sent from this House to the Lords did not provide for flogging women. Why is it necessary then to insert this special proviso exempting women from flogging? Indeed, as the suggestion was made in the House of Lords that women might be branded instead of flogged, I should rather like to know whether it is desirable to make this distinction at all between the sexes. We have heard so much about the deterrent effect of flogging, how it will stop all sorts of things being done in this country, that I must say we ought to have some arguments directly to show that it is desirable not to flog women, although it is desirable to flog men. I am told it is a monstrous brutality to flog women. Yes, but in the interests of all these people we are so anxious to save it has been found necessary to inflict this brutality upon men. The crime is just the same in regard to women, and why are we not to flog women also? We are not giving them an equivalent sentence. In the case of men it is additional to imprisonment; but in the case of a woman she gets her six months' imprisonment and nothing more. Now nearly all the stories which we know so well from letters to the papers or in the columns of the sensational Press deal with women. It is the woman who decoys away for ever the girl who assists her when she faints. It is the woman who is waiting in her carriage at Euston station to catch the unwary servant girl, and take her away in her carriage and pair to a brothel in Soho. In all these cases it is the woman who is the villain of the piece,
  734
  and why exempt them from flogging, and merely flog men who are carrying on this abominable traffic? If you are going to introduce torture under the ordinary law it ought to be the same for1 both. If we are going to be Russified by the introduction of the knout in this country, let it apply to all sexes. The arguments used for flogging men are equally applicable for flogging women, and I think we are entitled to ask that when the House of Lords are so merciful as to make special exemption for women and suggest branding instead of flogging, and when flogging is blessed from the Holy Episcopal Bench we ought to have some words from the promoters of the Bill or those who are guided by the Archbishops why this exemption should be made in the case of the people who, according to all their stories, are at the back of this infamous traffic.
  Further Lords Amendments agreed to.
  Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to one of their Amendments to the Bill.
  Committee nominated of Mr. Ellis Griffith, Mr. Arthur Lee, Mr. McKenna. Mr. Patrick O'Brien, and the Marquess of Tullibardine.
  Three to be a Quorum.
  To withdraw immediately.
  Reason for disagreeing to one of the-Lords' Amendments reported, and agreed1 to.
  To be communicated to the Lords.— [Mr. McKenna.]
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
Mr. PATRICK WHITE: Before this House adjourns, I should like to call attention to the action of the Irish Department of Agriculture in scheduling the whole of county Meath as an affected area. Having regard to the statement of the Vice-President last week, I must come to the conclusion that his Department are subject to an over-riding influence on the part of the authorities in Whitehall.
Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted, and forty Members not being present,
The House was adjourned at Fourteen minutes after Four of the clock a.m.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
  SANATORIUM BENEFIT.
  SANATORIUM BENEFIT.
  NATIONAL AMALGAMATED APPROVED SOCIETY.
  NATIONAL AMALGAMATED APPROVED SOCIETY.
  CITY OF GLASGOW FRIENDLY SOCIETY.
  CITY OF GLASGOW FRIENDLY SOCIETY.
  NUMBER ENROLMENTS (IRELAND).
  NUMBER ENROLMENTS (IRELAND).
  Solicitors (Licence Duty).
  Solicitors (Licence Duty).
  Agricultural Organisation.
  Agricultural Organisation.
  Temporary Excise Officers.
  Temporary Excise Officers.
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Recruits (Medical Inspection).
  Recruits (Medical Inspection).
  Tripod Mountings.
  Tripod Mountings.
  Police Courts (Witnesses).
  Police Courts (Witnesses).
  River Wear Shipbuilding.
  River Wear Shipbuilding.
  Contracts for Silver.
  Contracts for Silver.
  Vaccination.
  Vaccination.
  Workmen's Compensation Act (Trawl Fishermen).
  Workmen's Compensation Act (Trawl Fishermen).
  Price of Petrol.
  Price of Petrol.
  Steamship "Irishman."
  Steamship "Irishman."
  Railways (No. 2) Bill.
  Railways (No. 2) Bill.
  Reply Post Cards.
  Reply Post Cards.
  Railway Companies (Telegraphic Facilities).
  Railway Companies (Telegraphic Facilities).
  Mail Van Drivers.
  Mail Van Drivers.
  Telephone Service.
  Telephone Service.
  Post Office Electrical Engineers' Journal.
  Post Office Electrical Engineers' Journal.
  Steamship "Truro" (Slaughter of Animals).
  Steamship "Truro" (Slaughter of Animals).
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease.
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease.
  Agriculture (Market Reports).
  Agriculture (Market Reports).
  Small Holdings.
  Small Holdings.
  Murder in East Africa.
  Murder in East Africa.
  Education (Scotland) Act, 1872 (Section 68).
  Education (Scotland) Act, 1872 (Section 68).
  Sheriff Principalships.
  Sheriff Principalships.
  Regent's Park (Buildings).
  Regent's Park (Buildings).

BARONY OF FURNIVALL.
Report made from the Committee for Privileges—
That the Barony of Furnivall is an ancient Barony in fee:
That it is proved by the Writ of Summons addressed to Thomas de Furnivall in the 23rd year of Edward I and the other evidence adduced on behalf of the Petitioner that the Barony of Furnivall was in the reign of King Edward I vested in Thomas de Furnivall:
That the Barony of Furnivall was vested by descent in Joane, daughter of William, Lord Furnivall, and her husband Thomas Nevill was summoned to Parliament and sat in Parliament as Lord Furnivall:
That the Barony devolved upon her daughter and heir Maude Nevill, whose husband John Talbot was summoned to Parliament and sat in Parliament as a Peer of the Realm:
That John Talbot, Lord Furnivall was created Earl of Shrewsbury and the Barony fell into abeyance at the death of Gilbert, 7th Earl of Shrewsbury in 1616 between his three daughters, Lady Mary, Countess of Pembroke, Lady Elizabeth, Countess of Kent, and Lady Alathea, Countess of Arundel:
That the last-mentioned Countess of Arundel succeeded to the Barony of Furnivall by the death of her sisters without issue and the Barony devolved in her issue until it fell into abeyance at the death of Edward, Duke of Norfolk in 1777:
That Charles Botolph Joseph, Lord Mowbray Segrave and Stourton, and the Honourable Mary Frances Katherine Petre are the coheirs to the said Barony:
That the Barony of Furnivall is at His Majesty's disposal:
Read, and agreed to; and resolved and adjudged accordingly; and Resolution and Judgment to be laid before His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
Ordered that all deeds, documents and papers produced on behalf of the Claimant by her agents, be delivered to the said agents.

BARON CROFTON.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor that the right of Arthur Edward Lowther Crofton, Baron Crofton of Mote, in the Peerage of Ireland, to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland, has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords this day, that the right of the Baron Crofton to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments.
LORD SOUTHWARK: My Lords, in the exceptional circumstances connected with electrical wiring and fitting, the House of Commons Committee, which was presided over by Sir Henry Kimber, passed Clause 83 of this Bill. This clause has been considerably altered by the Committee of your Lordships' House presided over by the Duke of Wellington. The Corporation of Sheffield do not desire at this moment to have the matter debated in your Lordships' House, but they wish to give notice that they will use their best endeavours to persuade the House of Commons to reinstate the clause in its original form and send it back to this House. I make this statement because I think it is only right that your Lordships should have notice that the Corporation of Sheffield are not satisfied with the way in which this clause has been dealt with by the Committee of your Lordships' House.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I am glad, in view of the circumstances, that the noble Lord has taken the course he has of giving your Lordships notice that while the promoters accept the Bill in a technical sense now, they do not accept it as final, and that if they can persuade the other House to disagree with your Lordships' Committee they will endeavour to do so. That being the case I will not to-day go into the merits of the question. But I

161
should like to state that the clause in question as the Bill leaves this House is in the form of the model clause of your Lordships' House. Personally I think the decision of your Lordships' Committee was a right one—it certainly was not an extreme one; and if the other House do disagree with your Lordships' Committee in the Amendments, your Lordships will understand that this is a model clause which has been amended slightly this session but amended only with the object of making its original meaning perfectly clear.
LORD SOUTHWARK: I would point out, in view of what the noble Earl the Lord Chairman has stated, that there are, in the opinion of the Corporation of Sheffield, special circumstances in connection with their case.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It would, of course, be inconvenient at such a moment to go into the merits of this case, with which I cannot pretend to be fully conversant. At the same time I think it is only right to say that the matter to which the noble Lord opposite has called attention concerns one of the model clauses of your Lordships' House, and though we shall treat with profound respect the action taken in the other House we cannot hold out any hope that we shall vary our decision unless the House think right to do so.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, I am sorry that the Sheffield Corporation have decided to take the course indicated by the noble Lord opposite. I certainly had hoped, after the matter had been so much discussed, that the Sheffield Corporation would have been satisfied and would have allowed matters to take their course. They are, however, quite within their rights in taking the line they propose to take; but I should like to say that the manufacturers of the country will take a very strong line in the opposite direction, and I hope your Lordships will retain this clause, which you have on more than one occasion adopted.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: There are some further Amendments to this Bill, but it is not necessary to state them to the House. They are purely drafting Amendments, and do not touch the point to which attention has been drawn this evening.
Moved, That the further Amendments be agreed to.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Amendments made.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Petition in favour of; of the National Vigilance Association of Scotland; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Lucas.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LUCAS): The Amendment standing in my name is the one which I undertook at the last stage to put down. I have placed it on the Paper in its present form for the reason that the dates vary on which tenancies which in short may be described as Lady Day tenancies are determined. One date that is occasionally used is Candlemas—namely, February 2; another is old Lady Day, April 6; and there are also various days in May on which these tenancies are determined. The provision in the new clause which I now move to insert is consistent with the arrangement at which we arrived on the Report stage.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1 insert the following new clause:
"2. Notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary a notice to determine a tenancy of a holding or any part thereof on a day earlier than one year after the date of the service of the notice shall be void.
"Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to—

"(a) a notice to determine a tenancy at Candlemas or Lady Day or any other day not later than the thirtieth day of June; or

"(b) a notice to determine a tenancy of an allotment given under section thirty of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908."—(Lord Lucas).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3:
Determination of Questions.
3. If any question arises under this Act as to whether a notice to quit has been given in view of the sale or offering for sale of a holding or part thereof, or as to whether the provisions of this Act with regard to the giving of any information or notice in connection with an agreement for sale have been complied with by a landlord or by a tenant, or as to whether a notice to quit is a notice to which this Act applies, the question may at any time after the notice is given be referred by the landlord or the tenant to arbitration under the Agricultural Holdings Act. 1908.
LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTH: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Hylton, who is unfortunately unable to be present to-day, I move the Amendment to Clause 3 which stands in his name, to leave out the words "at any time" ["the question may at any time"] and to insert in their place the words "within one calendar month." The clause, as your Lordships see, provides that if any question arises as to whether a notice to quit has been given in view of the sale or offering for sale of a holding or part thereof, or as to whether the provisions with regard to the giving of any information or notice in connection with an agreement for sale have been complied with, and so forth, and if there is a dispute about the matter the question may—
"at any time after the notice is given be referred by the landlord or the tenant to arbitration under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908."
It is suggested by my noble friend Lord Hylton that the words "at any time" would be dangerously wide, because they might have the effect of giving a litigious tenant power to harass his landlord some considerable time after the matter had been closed, and, of course, the same thing might conceivably happen from the other side—namely, on the part of the landlord. Therefore my noble friend proposes in his Amendment to limit the time by omitting the words "at any time" and inserting "within one calendar month." It has been represented to me that possibly the House might think that one calendar month rather erred too much on the side of shortness, and that a longer time might judiciously be inserted. In regard to that I am in the hands of your Lordships. But the words "at any time" would be too vague and wide and would give rise to the danger of possible litigation long after the time when it was right that such litigation, if you can call, it litigation, should take place. In
164
other words it would open the door to rather vexatious proceedings. That is, as far as I understand, the argument of my noble friend Lord Hylton, and I beg on his behalf to move the Amendment standing in his name.
Amendment moved—
Clause 3, page 3, line 3, leave out ("at any time") and insert ("within one calendar month").—(Lord Zouche of Haryngworth.)
LORD LUCAS: There is a difficulty in the way of accepting the Amendment, and it is this. The procedure in the clause is intended to meet what one might call a question of fact. In the earlier stages of the Bill when we were discussing the counter-notice we laid down a certain definite period after which it could not be given. I think we gave two months from the time when the landlord served the notice as the period within which the tenant had to serve the counter-notice, because that was, as far as the tenant was concerned, a question of policy. The tenant had to make up his mind definitely whether he would go at the end of the year or serve a counter-notice. But this particular procedure is, as I have said, for the purpose of deciding certain questions of fact. Under the procedure as laid down in the Bill the landlord has to give notice that he wants to take advantage of the exceptions which the Bill makes. He has to state in the notice the reason why it is being given, and why the tenant cannot therefore claim the extra year. It might be quite impossible for the tenant to find out within a certain time whether or not the reason the landlord gives is actually the case. For instance, the landlord may give notice of his intention, let us say, to create small holdings, which is one of the objects for which he may give notice under Clause 2. Then suppose something happens to deter the landlord from creating small holdings; or it may be brought to the tenant's notice, for instance, that the landlord has some other intention in his mind. You cannot confine a thing of that sort within a definite fixed time. The question of fact on which the tenant will make his appeal—as to whether the land really is going to be used for the purpose specified by the landlord when he gave notice—is a question that the tenant must be given time, it seems to me, to determine. Under ordinary conditions the tenant would naturally be anxious to know at the earliest possible moment what his fate was

165
to be. If owing to the form in which the landlord gives the notice the tenant thinks there is some reason on which he may appeal to arbitration, he is in a state of uncertainty as to whether the decision of the arbitrators will be in his favour or not, and therefore he will be just as anxious as the landlord to get an early settlement of the question. So that under ordinary conditions he will naturally appeal at once. The only case in which he would not be able to appeal at once would be where some change takes place after the notice has been served which, in the tenant's opinion, is fair ground for supposing that the landlord will not be able to carry out his original intention, and therefore it is undesirable to put in any definite time as suggested in the Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The noble Lord has, perhaps, given a reason why the words "one calendar month" will not do, but that is no reason for leaving it open for the tenant to raise the question at any time hereafter. I am sure the noble Lord in charge of the Bill does not wish any more than anybody else that an indefinite time should be given. Could not we put in the words "after the notice is given and before it has expired," or something of that kind? That would give plenty of time in which to raise the question, and at the same time would avoid giving any length of time that you like to mention.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The object which my noble friend Lord Zouche has in view is very evident, and I think most of your Lordships will agree that if it were feasible it is a very proper Amendment to move —namely, that a limit should be put upon the possibility of raising this question, so that after a certain time both the landlord and the tenant should know exactly where they stood. That seems on the face of it a very reasonable proposal; and no doubt the phrase "at any time" opens up a vista as if years after the question might be again raised. My noble friend who has just sat down suggested that instead of the limit being one month the currency of the notice to quit might be the limit. I had great sympathy with the Amendment when it was put on the Paper, but I am bound to say that having listened to the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture it seems to me that the Amendment is not feasible. It is clearly necessary that the
166
tenant should have the right to appeal to arbitration as soon as the facts transpire upon which he can act; and it may easily be, if, for example, a landlord claims exemption from the operation of the Act because he is selling with a view to small holdings, that after a short time it may appear that that intention cannot be carried out. In that case it would he fair for the tenant to have the right to call in question before a board of arbitration the exemption for which the landlord had claimed. I can conceive similar cases in which necessity might be laid on the tenant to wait until the facts transpired before going to arbitration. Therefore I am bound to say that in the circumstances the Amendment is not feasible.
Then comes the proposal of my noble friend Lord Camperdown. I think that ideally his proposal is probably right, but it is rather late in the course of the Bill for us to put in an Amendment of that kind, which would require to be very carefully drafted; and as a matter of fact I do not think it is likely that this question will be raised after the estate has changed hands and the notice to quit has taken effect. No doubt if it could have been put in at this stage it would, perhaps, be better to say that there should be no opportunity of appeal after the period of the notice had expired; but the danger is so small that think it would be hardly worth while to delay the Bill in order to put those words in.
LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTH: After what has been said in the course of this discussion I do not wish to press the Amendment. At the same time, I think this is a question which might have been susceptible of some compromise.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Lucas.)
LORD CHANNING: My Lords, in asking the indulgence which your Lordships generously grant to newcomers to this House I do so with somewhat more confidence because it seems to me that the efforts of those who really care about agriculture and have tried in their way to lift these problems above the mere Party and class controversy have borne fruit, and that we are nearer in dealing with them to a stage of common ground where we can eliminate the friction

167
between different interests and do something to promote the continuous development of the agricultural industry. I am quite aware that I may seem to be trespassing rather late in the day on your Lordships' attention, but I have had exceptional opportunities of knowing the opinions of the tenant farmers of this country for many years in the Chambers of Agriculture and in the recent discussions on this subject. At a previous stage of this Bill my noble friend Lord Barnard laid before your Lordships' House and before my noble friend on the Government Bench some considerations which were present to the mind of the Central Chamber. I would only say this, that I am confident that the real grievance that is now being suffered by the tenant farmers of this country has the sympathy of every one of your Lordships. I have had the advantage, and it is an advantage which I prize very highly, of serving on more than one great Commission and Inquiry into this question of agriculture, and the fact borne upon the mind of any one who has had the opportunity of thus studying the history and conditions of some of the best managed estates in this country has been this, that the tenant farmers on those estates are those who are most progressive and most tend to advance the interests of agriculture, and that on those estates tenant farmers have the maximum degree of security in the protection of their interests. It is obvious that these sales are increasing not decreasing; they are not so much sales of bankrupt or ill-managed estates, but largely, perhaps increasingly, of portions of the best managed estates, so that the risks to the best type of farmer are even greater. That is the standpoint from which I would venture, with your Lordships' leave, to make one or two observations on this Bill before it passes to another place.
Lord Barnard the other day laid some of these considerations before you, and there is no doubt that there has been very sharp criticism among working tenant farmers upon the provisions of this Bill. I do not myself concur in the wholesale condemnation of the Bill or I may also add of the Report of the Departmental Committee upon which my noble friend on the Front Bench so much relies in defending the form of the Bill as it is laid before you. But I would venture to say that the feeling of the practical working farmers of this country is this—that the real grievance,
168
the vital grievance which has aroused so much anxiety and to a certain extent a great deal of irritation among that class of men has been in their opinion ignored both by the Report of the Departmental Committee and also in the Bill of His Majesty's Government. The real point of the whole question is the decision which was given in the County Court case of Clewlow v, Briscoe, that the compensation for disturbance clause passed in 1906 and afterwards embodied in the Consolidation Bill of 1908 does not apply to the case of tenant farmers who have notices to quit served upon them in order that the landlord may be able to sell his estate with the advantage to the new purchaser of coming into an estate of which he will have immediate possession with freedom to handle. That is the real grievance which they want dealt with and which is not dealt with by this Bill.
It has always seemed to me that it would be far better for agriculture and would not injure the landlord or anybody else if there was a business footing between the two parties to an agricultural contract, in which there might be absolute certainty of justice and fair-play all round. But there is a sense of deep injustice on the part of farmers that when a landowner is able to sell his estate for a higher price owing to giving notice to quit some consideration should not be given to them in those circumstances. Until the County Court decision to which I have referred was given they were firmly of the conviction—and their advisers, the great valuers and estate agents who dispose of these questions as between landlord and tenant, advised them—that they were protected by this section and would receive reasonable consideration for being expelled in this way. I have read, and I have no doubt my noble friend Lord Haversham has fully considered, the evidence given before his Committee by one of the ablest and most respected agricultural agents and experts in the country, Mr. Anker Simmons. In his view this was the essential point of the whole question. He said that in the previous two or three years there had been many cases in which he personally knew of vast losses sustained by tenant farmers owing to Section 11 of the Act of 1908 not being applicable to the cases of tenants who were turned out in these circumstances; and he went on to give an instance which I think any one of your Lordships who reads it will see constitutes a very vivid illustration of real hardship in these cir-

169
cumstances. He describes a case in which he was responsible as the valuer and decider of the relative rights of the two parties, in which the selling landowner, taking this view of Section 11 of the Act of 1908, had deliberately handed over to the purchaser a considerable sum of money in order to cover the claims which the tenants might present to him after he had come into ownership of the land. Mr. Simmons stated in his evidence that while the sale was still pending this decision was come to in the County Court, and that when in the final stage of the proceedings he applied to the purchasing owner and asked him to make good to the tenants out of the sum which had been handed over to him by the selling owner he snapped his fingers in Mr. Simmons's face and said, "They have no claim." He was perfectly entitled to say that. The County Court having decided as it did, there was no legal claim against him, what ever moral claim there might have been. That is a different state of things from what I saw in the newspapers yesterday, where an estate was bought, I think in Cheshire, for industrial purposes and where the seller, receiving, I suppose, a considerable sum for his estate, deliberately released his tenants from a considerable amount of their obligations to him.
What I would press upon my noble friend in charge of the Bill is this. It is, of course, useless at the present stage and in your Lordships' House to do anything more about this Bill. I feel that I owe your Lordships an apology for trespassing upon your time at this late moment. But I do wish to ask my noble friend Lord Lucas—and this is my only opportunity of doing so—whether he will not consider the possibility, when this Bill goes to another place, of dealing with this great and deeply felt grievance of tenant farmers. It seems to me a very real case which ought to be met somehow. The notice of the present Bill precluded any action in your Lordships' House, because a motion to introduce an Amendment of Section 11 of the Act of 1908 would clearly have been out of order under the notice under which this Bill was introduced, so we are powerless here. But I Would ask my noble friend, as representing the Government, whether it might not be possible to meet this, I assure him, very strong and I think not wholly unreasonable demand of the working agriculturists of this country, that something should be done to meet this grievance
170
in addition to the provisions in this Bill. I do not wish to underrate the Bill. Undoubtedly the provision as to counter-notice, especially as improved by Lord St. Levan's Amendment, places the tenant farmer in a much better position for bargaining for fair terms in a new contract of tenancy, and it also gives him elbow room to look for a new farm. But I would ask my noble friend, in conclusion, whether His Majesty's Government cannot consider dealing with the subject in a somewhat wider aspect, either by new legislation or by taking steps to recast the present Bill in another place.
LORD LUCAS: My Lords, I stated when introducing this Bill that it was not intended to cover the whole ground. It was, I explained, only what one might term an instalment, but that it was in our opinion as far as it went a measure of some value and one which there was a fair prospect of being able to get through pretty speedily. We never intended that it should be a compensation Bill, and we have carefully avoided in the Bill dealing with that extremely controversial question. I do not wish to say that the present state of affairs with regard to compensation is in every way satisfactory. I do not think we have at all reached what we may call a final settlement with regard to that. But what I would point out to my noble friend is that the difficulties in the way of it are enormous. One has only to read the Report of this very Committee, some of whose recommendations are the cause of this Bill, to see that. They devoted a considerable amount of time to this question of compensation, and anxious as they were to assist tenants they were unable, after having listened to the very evidence which my noble friend quoted, to make any recommendations in favour of altering the existing conditions of compensation. I mention that simply to show that the compensation question is fraught with difficulty in every possible way. Moreover, we have still to see how the present Agricultural Holdings Act works before we can come to any final decision on that particular question.
LORD HAVERSHAM: My Lords, I quite appreciate the difficulties to which my noble friend Lord Channing has alluded, and I can assure him that on the Committee over which I presided we had the most anxious deliberation with regard to

171
the whole matter of compensation, but it was almost impossible for the valuers to say that they could at any time arrive at a proper valuation. Consequently we had to give this up, and we adopted another plan which was popular with the whole of the Committee—namely, the giving of an extended notice. I happened to meet a number of leading farmers yesterday. They were, of course, very open-mouthed with regard to the necessity of giving compensation. I told them what the change was which this Bill would effect, and they said there was no doubt about it that that did make a very great difference in the whole matter and they considered it a great boon to them. Much as I hope my noble friend in charge of the Bill will take up the question of compensation afterwards, I do trust that he will keep this Bill separate and endeavour to pass it as it stands through the House of Commons, because there is no doubt about it that it will be a great boon to the tenants affected. In my opinion the question of compensation cannot be settled except in a different Bill.
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LIGHT RAILWAYS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

OMNIBUSES AND WORKMEN'S FARES.
LORD MONK BRETTON LORD MONK BRETTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government what number of passengers were carried on the London County Council tramways during the year ended March 31, 1912; what proportion of them was carried at workmen's fares; whether workmen's fares are in force on the motorbuses; if not, whether the Government can, under existing legislation, call upon the omnibus companies to run an efficient service of workmen's buses at special fares; and if not, whether the Government will or will not introduce legislation to deal with this matter.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in asking the Question which I have put on the Paper I should like in a few words to call your Lordships' attention to the anomalies which exist at the present moment with
172
regard to London traffic authorities. We have a system of underground railways and tubes which are under statutory obligation to provide workmen's fares, and we have a number of tramways outside the metropolitan area which are also under an obligation of the same character. We also have the London County Council tramways within the metropolitan area; they are not for the most part bound to carry passengers at workmen's fares but they voluntarily do so and at very great cost indeed. According to the Traffic Returns of the Board of Trade for 1911 they did so during that year at a loss which amounted to something like £130,000, which is a considerable cost to the London ratepayers. Then we have the London General Omnibus Company and the other 'bus companies who run 'buses all over London and outside it without any duty to provide workmen's fares, and the power of these omnibus companies has recently been increased by the combine which has been so well boomed in the Press.
The position of London is anomalous in this respect. If you go to other towns you find that the Police authority is the town authority. They are the authority which license 'buses, and they are therefore enabled to provide a certain degree of uniformity in the traffic regulations of the town. It is curious that one should have to ask Questions of this sort of His Majesty's Government. One would have thought that there was some authority that could impose this duty upon omnibuses, but the fact of the matter is that we have not got any authority to control the traffic of London. The Royal Commission of 1905 reported in favour of a Traffic Board. Repeatedly requests have been made to His Majesty's Government to give a Traffic Board to London, and only this year the Prime Minister again refused to do it. The Prime Minister having refused, there is nothing for it but to put Questions of this sort to His Majesty's Government direct. The Prime Minister has refused a Traffic Board to London but he has been obliged, on the question of safety, to recognise the absence of a Traffic Board, and has had to appoint a Committee of the House of Commons to investigate the dangers of the streets; but on the question of convenience to the public His Majesty's Government have not given us this Traffic Board. Therefore, as I say, we are obliged to raise this question in this way.
I think a very good case can be made out for the granting of workmen's fares. There are streets in London which are not served by any tramway and which workmen use in order to go to their work. I will take the case of Hammersmith to the City. Great numbers of working men go every morning from Hammersmith to the City and the omnibus is their means of conveyance. I could quote other lines, but I do not think it is necessary to do so. There is a society called the National Association for the Extension of Workmen's Trams and Trains. It is an association which I believe has the support of all the trade unions and all the working men's organisations in London. This association approached the motor-'bus companies by a deputation last February and asked them to give workmen's fares. The 'bus companies replied, "We will consider the matter." They have gone on considering the matter now for nearly twelve months, and the workmen have got no nearer, so far as they know, than they were last February. I think the 'bus companies have been rather coquetting with this question for some time, because in the Traffic Report of the Board of Trade the passage occurs, with reference to omnibuses, that "workmen's fares may be introduced on omnibuses." I cannot help feeling that that passage is due either to a feeling on the part of the Board of Trade officials who were on that Committee that workmen's fares ought to be introduced, or to a feeling on the part of the 'bus companies that they will not long be allowed to retain this very peculiar anomally.
There is one other point to which I should like to call your Lordships' attention with regard to this matter. It does seem a very unfair thing on the ratepayers of London. London ratepayers have invested in the tramways undertaking something like £10,000,000. They provide workmen's fares and have exhibited no desire that this obligation should be taken away from them and that they should be relieved of this expense. But their undertaking is being very hard pressed by the London General Omnibus Company, whose 'buses are run for the benefit of the shareholders, and consequently the enterprise of the ratepayers in which their money is invested is being very hard hit by a commercial company which is under no obligation and so far as I am aware cannot be made by anybody except by His Majesty's Govern-
174
ment to perform what I venture to think is an ordinary duty that they owe to the City which they are exploiting. I beg to ask the Questions standing in my name.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, I think I ought to express my regret to the noble Lord that, I did not understand from the form in which he put the Questions on the Paper that he was likely to travel into such large and important questions as the effect upon the rates of London of the fares charged in the trams and in motor omnibuses. I hope he will forgive me if I confine myself to answering the five Questions which he has on the Paper and which deal with various matters of fact, and do not enter into a discussion of the matters of opinion with which so much of his speech dealt.
The first Question deals with the number of passengers carried on the London County Council tramways during the year which ended On March 31, 1912. The Secretary of State is informed that the number so carried was 533,410,200, and that 11·586 per cent. of the total, amounting to 61,806,125, were carried at workmen's fares, and this includes return journeys made with workmen's tickets. The Secretary of State has no information as to the fares charged on motor omnibuses, and, as the noble Lord is well aware, he has no authority to interfere with or regulate them in any way. I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope to the noble Lord that His Majesty's Government are likely to introduce legislation dealing with this subject. It certainly is not in contemplation at present, and I do not suppose the noble Lord is surprised at that considering the present state of affairs.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: No one, I am sure, will be surprised that the Government deprecate an attempt to press for further legislation at the present time, but I think we ought not to part with the question without assuring His Majesty's Government that this subject is becoming more serious and important every day; and I am afraid that they will find that if they study the interests of the metropolis from a number of points of view they will have to consider the present position in which motor omnibuses stand. To take one point. The streets of London have been laid with the intention of carrying a traffic not so rapid

175
and not so heavy as is provided by motor omnibuses. The consequence, I was informed by a member of one of the metropolitan borough councils last night, is that the extra expenditure during a single year for the upkeep of the roads of his borough had come to somewhere between £8,000 and £10,000, and the engineers state that this does not represent anything like what must be spent, because to put the roads right for this traffic they must be pulled up and the depth of asphalt underneath the road, which is now, I think, nine inches, must be doubled. I think it is obvious that with this mode of traffic increasing every day, however valuable it is, His Majesty's Government must sooner or later recognise that a new science of locomotion has arisen and that in some way or another the local authorities must have made good to them the very great loss they are at present incurring in the interests of one portion of the traffic of London only.
The matter of workmen's fares is quite a different subject. It is true that motor-'buses are the only means of locomotion exempt from that very heavy tax. But if my noble friend had received from the noble Earl opposite an answer which would have been more pleasant to his point of view, he would have been damaging the London County Council tramways, because it is obvious that if a large system of workmen's fares were to be started on the motor omnibuses it would to some extent take away from the enormous number of people who at present travel on the tramways, and
176
as all arrangements have been made by the tramways to provide for the public in this direction they would be the losers to that extent. But whether you look at it from the point of view of the immunity of omnibuses from restrictions placed upon others; their immunity from rates, which is not the case with railroads and tramways; or the damage that they do, which is not the case either with railroads or tramways, I think your Lordships will admit that some clear case is made out for the interposition of the Government, which might take place with very little difficulty by the establishment of a Traffic Board as foreshadowed by the Prime Minister.
LORD MONK BRETTON: My Lords, I should like to point out to the noble Viscount who has just sat down that there are many streets in London which have not got trams and where workmen's fares are required at the present time, notably the Fulham-road and the road from Hammersmith via Oxford-street, and I could mention others where the institution of workmen's fares on motor omnibuses would not in the least interfere with the trams. I agree with the noble Viscount that there must be appointed sooner or later a Traffic Board which shall decide where the 'buses shall go and where trains shall go, and thus avoid not only the cut-throat competition of these two modes of communication but also prevent a state of things which is at present a danger to the public.
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.