Sitting of 28 June 1910

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),— Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Heading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 13) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time upon Monday next.
Eastbourne Corporation Bill,
Matlock Bath and Scarthin Nick Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Dunfermline and District Tramways (Extensions) Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Wemyss Tramways (Extensions) Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the third time to-morrow.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill (by Order),
As Amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time tomorrow.
Water Provisional Order (Sutton) Confirmation Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered tomorrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Hankow-Szechuen Railway.
  Mr. ARBUTHNOTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the agreement which provided for the financing and construction of the Hankow-Szechuen Railway laid down that extensions of this railway were to be divided equally between groups representing, respectively, the United States, Great Britain, and France; if so, whether His Majesty's Government had sanctioned this arrangement; and was he aware that the Chinese Government had already entrusted the construction of these extensions to a Chinese provincial company which had publicly announced that no foreign participation in these enterprises would be permitted, and had actually commenced work thereon?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. Grey): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, an Imperial Order was published in March last authorising the gentry of the Hupei Province to form a railway company, to raise capital, and to prepare for the issue of shares. As this Decree seemed open to an interpretation unfavourable to the railway undertakings entered into between China and the British, French, and German financial groups in June, 1909, the representatives of the three countries concerned have inquired as to the intention of the Chinese Government in the matter.
  Mr. ARBUTHNOT: May I ask whether the agreement referred to in the first part of the question has been approved by the Chinese Government?
  Sir E. GREY: Perhaps the hon. Member will give notice of any supplementary question.
  EARL of RONALDSHAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman had any reply from the Chinese Government to the representations made by the chief Powers concerned?
  Sir E. GREY: I must ask for notice of that question.

  World-Wide Peace (United States Resolution).
  Mr. BYLESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had any official information of a resolution recently

  817
  passed by the United States House of Representatives providing for the appointment by the President of a commission of five distinguished Americans to consult with Foreign Governments on the subject of world-wide peace?
  Sir E. GREY: I have at present no further information than that given in the answer to the hon. Member for Aberdeen on the 16th instant.

  Russia and Persia.
  Mr. O'GRADYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had information that the Russian troops encamped at Kazvin were recruiting soldiers in the country; and, if so, whether this was contrary to the agreement respecting Persian affairs?
  Sir E. GREY: I have received no such information, and have no reason to credit any such report.
  Mr. O'GRADYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he was aware that a conflict had taken place between Russian and Persian troops at the village of Charkar, near to Zanján, arising out of the conduct of one Dáráb Mirzá, an officer in the service of the Russian Government who had fortified the village of Charkar as a preliminary to attacking Zanján with 800 armed men; whether he was aware that the Persian Government had despatched troops to stop the misdeeds of Dáráb Mirzá, and that these troops were attacked by Russian troops which were sent to arrest this man because he had broken leave of absence given him to visit Russia; whether any report had reached the Foreign Office from the British Consul that in the conflict the Persian General Ali Khán and another person were killed; and, if so, would inquiries be made into the whole matter, and steps taken suggesting to the Government of Russia that Dáráb Mirzá might be recalled and dealt with for armed raiding in a neighbouring and friendly country?
  Mr. O'GRADYalso asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he had any information that one Dáráb Mirzá, an officer in the service of the Russian Government, left Kazvin, where he was attached to the Russian troops encamped there, and went to the neighbouring town of Zanján with an armed band of 800 men,
  818
  declaring that as the envoy of the Tsar and the deposed Shah he was commissioned to put into force new laws, and to specially raise the town of Rasht and subsequently to march on to Tehran; and, if so, had any steps been taken in this matter by the British Government?
  Sir E. GREY: The account of this incident given in the hon. Member's two questions, which I will answer together, does not agree in some material respects with the reports received from His Majesty's Representatives on the spot. According to the information in my possession, Dáráb Mirzá, a member of a branch of the Persian reigning house which has been settled in Russia for two generations, and has acquired Russian nationality, entered the Russian army, and was till the date of the incident in question an officer in the Cossack Regiment stationed at Kazvin. Early in May he obtained leave of absence, and shortly after he left his colonel received a letter from him tendering his resignation, and announcing that he was about to head a movement with the object of replacing Mohammed Ali Shah on the throne. He then, with the assistance of an official of the ex-Shah's court, succeeded in collecting a considerable force of malcontents by falsely alleging that he was backed by Russia. With these he attacked the town of Zinján, but was twice repulsed with loss. Meanwhile, acting on instructions from the Russian Minister at Tehran, the officer commanding the Russian force at Kazvin sent sixty men to arrest Dáráb Mirzá wherever he might be found. Unfortunately, when the Governor of Zinján sent to the surrounding districts for reinforcements to defend the town, he was told that 300 Russians were blocking the road, and the Persian forces hesitated to advance. This misunderstanding, however, was soon cleared up. When the Russian Cossacks arrived at Zinján, and, after some parley with the Governor, were allowed to enter the town, Dáráb Mirzá surrendered to them without resistance, and was taken to Kazvin as a prisoner. A more recent report from His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Tehran stated that the party returning with him were attacked on their way by unknown assailants. There is obviously no reason for suggesting that Dáráb Mirzá should be recalled by the Russian Government, as they have already arrested him.

  Riotous Occurrences Reported in peshawar.
  Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the India Office had received any report regarding the riotous occurrences in Peshawar during the 21st and 22nd March last; whether he had been informed that the Hindu community had formulated charges against the district magistrate, and has offered to submit these charges to an impartial inquiry, but that the Acting Commissioner had declined to receive the petition or a deputation in support of it; whether the India Office had information showing that after the outbreak of riotousness on the 21st March, the district magistrate left Peshawar in the midst of the rioting without making suitable arrangements for the protection of law and order; and whether, in view of these and subsequent petty outbreaks of disorder on the border, the India Office had any Papers to lay upon the Table for the information of Members?
  Sir J. D. REES: Before the Undersecretary answers, may I ask whether it is usual for the accused to put the magistrate on trial outside the realm of comic opera?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): I shall content myself by answering the question on the Paper. I would refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for East Leeds on 21st June. The Secretary of State has received no official report on the subject, but he is making inquiry as to the facts.

  Press Act, 1910 (India).
  Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked whether Papers will be laid upon the Table containing the communications which passed between the Indian Government and the India Office on the Press Act of 1910, and reports concerning the administration of the Act; and whether this will be done before the Debate on the Indian Budget?
  Mr. MONTAGU: The Act has not been in force long enough for any reports on its administration to be available at present, but these will be presented in due course. The Secretary of State will consider what other Papers, if any, can usefully be presented.

  Mediterranean Command.
  Captain FABERasked the Secretary of State for War if he would state over what period of time the command of the newly
  820
  appointed officer to the Mediterranean Command was likely to extend?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Haldane): The prescribed term of a Staff appointment is four years, and so far as can be foreseen there is no reason to suppose this rule will be departed from in the case of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Mediterranean and Inspector-General of the Oversea Forces.
  Mr. W. PEEL: May I take it that the office will probably be held for a longer period than it was held by the late holder?
  Mr. HALDANE: A four years appointment is usual.
  Captain FABER: When is the new general likely to take up his command, and where will he reside?
  Mr. HALDANE: I think it is very likely it will be 1st August, but the date is not definitely settled yet. As. regards his headquarters, he will have the Palace at Malta, but for a certain time in the year, of course, he will have a good deal of work to do in London.

  Royal Garrison Artillery (Subalterns).
  Mr. CAUTLEYasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention had been called to the position of subalterns in the Royal Garrison Artillery; whether he was aware that the senior subaltern had ten years' service and some 130 subalterns nine years and six months' service, and that those subalterns having five or six years' service would have to wait for their promotion until some 400 of their seniors had been promoted or retired; and whether he would take steps to improve the position and prospects of the officers in this branch of the Service?
  Mr. HALDANE: It is true that the senior Garrison Artillery subaltern has ten years' service, but many subaltern officers in the Field Artillery and other regiments are similarly situated. The fact that so many subalterns at the top of the list have almost equal service is due to the large number of first appointments made early in 1900. The present block in promotion is due to temporary causes, and I hope that it will not now be long before it passes away. The Army Council decided, after thorough inquiry, that the situation was not such as to call for any exceptional measures.
  Mr. A. LEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has only been one promotion to the rank of captain in the last two years, and that at that rate it will take these officers 260 years to reach the top of the list? Does he really intend to do nothing to remedy the grievance in view of his repeated promise to give the matter favourable consideration?
  Mr. HALDANE: There are other steps to be taken, but, as I have already pointed out, this is an exceptionally difficult year. There is no reason to suppose they will continue subalterns or that they are worse off than subalterns in any other branch of the Service.

  Gold Coast Territory.
  Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he had any information that the Ancobra Rubber Estates Company, Limited, had acquired a lease of territory in the Gold Coast comprising 3,300 acres for ninety-nine years at £12 per annum; whether the lease carried any further trading privileges with it; and whether the Gold Coast Government considered the terms of the lease and did anything to prevent the exploitations of the native chiefs?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Colonel Seely): The Secretary of State's attention has been called to the abridged prospectus of the company to which my hon. Friend refers, but he has no further information respecting it. No such concession is valid, unless it is so certified by the Supreme Court of the Colony, which is by law required to satisfy itself as to the propriety of the terms of the concession, and particularly as to the inclusion of due protection for native rights.

  Royal Marines (Vaccination).
  Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he was aware that Private A. W. Brooker, of the E Company of the Royal Marines, after serving over seventeen years, was discharged from the Service on 30th April without any reason being given; whether the reason was that he declined to be vaccinated on the ground that when he first joined the Service he was vaccinated and suffered severely, and that the doctor who performed the operation marked his papers that he would not require to undergo vaccination
  822
  again; whether the authorities lost this paper or declined to produce it; whether all the man's papers were marked very good; and whether, as the result of his discharge, he not only lost his pension but could get no work on account of the way in which his discharge was notified to him?
  Mr. McKENNA: I shall be glad if the hon. Member would defer his question for a week, as I have not completed a full inquiry into all the circumstances of the case to which he has been good enough to draw my attention.

  Battleship and Cruiser Construction.
  Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked how many battleships and cruisers of the "Dreadnought" and "Invincible" types would have been completed by the summer of this year; and how many would have been commissioned within twenty-four months of the laying of the first keel plate?
  Mr. McKENNA: Seven battleships and three cruisers. Of these two battleships will have, been commissioned within twenty-four months of the laying of the first keel plate.
  Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked what is the number of battleships required at the present time for the maintenance of the two-Power standard as officially interpreted?
  Mr. McKENNA: It would be difficult to give a precise figure without entering upon a calculation of the degree of effective power which would entitle one battleship to be reckoned as a proportionate unit of strength in relation to another, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the present number of British battleships is more than sufficient.
  Mr. MIDDLEMORE: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean it sustains the two-Power standard as interpreted by the Prime Minister in 1908?
  Mr. McKENNA: Yes, Sir, and much more.
  Mr. ASHLEY: What are the views of the Government with regard to the two-Power standard?
  Mr. McKENNA: The question put to me was as to the maintenance of the two-Power standard as officially interpreted. That official interpretation has been frequently given.
  Mr. ASHLEY: Is the official interpretation the one given last November twelve months or that given last April?
  Mr. McKENNA: It is the one given by the Prime Minister in this House and repeated by myself.
  Mr. LEE: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by saying the number of battleships is more than sufficient?
  Mr. McKENNA: Speaking for the moment, I said the number was more than sufficient because we are building more in order to keep pace with the foreign ships now being built.

  Stream Pollution (Motor-Car Oils).
  Captain FABERasked the President of the Local Government Board if he would state whether any complaint had been received concerning the pollution of streams from the foul oil which dripped on to the roads from motor cars; and whether such precautions as trays to catch the waste oil from the cars could be used with advantage to the roads and water supply generally?
  The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Burns): I do not find that I have received any complaints as to the pollution of streams from the cause referred to. As regards the latter part of the hon. Member's question, I may say that I have not as yet found it necessary to make any regulation on the subject.
  Captain FABER: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen in the Press that fish had been poisoned in the rivers by this motorcar oil?
  Mr. BURNS: I did see it some months ago.

  Alnwick Rural District Council (Closing Property).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention had been called to the circumstances under which the Alnwick Rural District Council recently issued an Order under Section 17 (2) of The Housing and Town Planning Act, 1909, for the closing of certain premises known as Wellhope Cottage, Edlingham, in the county of Northumberland, the property of Sir John Swinburne, as being unfit for human habitation; whether, on appeal to the Board against such Order and after a public inquiry by the Board's inspector, Mr. W. H. Collin, the Board decided that such closing Order was inequitable and must be quashed, but that the appellant must bear his own costs of the appeal to
  824
  the Board, although successful; and whether, having regard to the fact that such costs amounted to £80, that the proceedings of the district council were shown after due inquiry to be unjustifiable, and that under Section 39 of the above Act there was no appeal to any judicial tribunal against the award of the Board as regarded costs, the Board would reconsider their decision, so as not to put the owner of the premises in a worse position than he was before such proceedings were taken?
  Mr. BURNS: I carefully considered the circumstances of the case referred to before giving my decision on the appeal. I also considered fully the question of the costs stated to have been incurred by the appellant in connection with his appeal, and came to the conclusion that there was no reason for departing from the general principle laid down in the Rules applicable to appeals to the Board under the Act of 1909 in regard to the payment of the costs of parties. I see no reason to reconsider my decision. I must not be assumed to admit that the question accurately states the amount of the costs incurred by the appellant in connection with the appeal.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Is it not entirely contrary to the principle of equity and also to ordinary judicial procedure in this country that a successful defendant should have to pay his own costs?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is a question for His Majesty's judges rather than for the President of the Local Government Board.

  Holbeck Union Nursing Staff.
  Mr. O'GRADYasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention had been called to the inadequacy of the nursing staff at the infirmary of the Holbeck Union, Leeds; whether in this matter representations had been made to him showing that a lady inspector reported to the Holbeck guardians the necessity of the appointment- of another two nurses, on the ground of the number of patients, male and female, usually in the wards, and the cases covering such diseases as phthisis, cancer, septic legs, and incontinent patients, and occasional maternity cases, all of which at present were in charge of one day nurse; and whether, in view of these facts, he would make representations to the guardians to appoint at least two additional nurses, sharing the day and night duty?
  Mr. BURNS: The matter has been brought to my attention, and the guardians are in communication with me on the subject.

  Mines Commission (Representation of Quarry Owners).
  Mr. ELLIS DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he had received a request from the Carnarvonshire Quarry Owners' Association asking for representation on the Mines Commission; and what reply he has made to such request?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Churchill): Yes, Sir, I received the letter referred to last Wednesday, and regret that I am unable to entertain the application of this Association for a special representative on the Commission. In the case of this, as of other Royal Commissions, various bodies in different parts of the country have applied for special representation, and it would be impossible to comply without making the Commission far too unwieldy for the purposes of such an inquiry.
  Mr. ELLIS DAVIES: May I ask whether last week the right hon. Gentleman did not promise to re-consider the matter, with a view to the appointment on the Commission of a representative of this Association?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; I am aware of that. I do not think I prejudged the matter in any way. I have considered it in the interval very carefully, and I think my hon. Friend must consider the importance of keeping the Commission at workable and convenient numbers.
  Mr. ELLIS DAVIES: Does the right hon. Gentleman think the number of Commissioners is more important than the representation of real interests on the Commission.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: If I were to attempt to give full representation to all the different sectional interests over the country— one to employers and one workmen in each case, I should have a Parliament instead of a Commission.

  Wellington Pit Disaster (Walling-up Decision).
  Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that when the decision to wall up the intake airway of the Wellington Pit, Whitehaven, was
  826
  come to, on 13th May, Mr. J. Hanlon, the representative of the workmen and the leader of the first band of explorers, was in the office but was not consulted, nor was his opinion taken in regard to the proposed walling up; and whether he can say who the workmen were whose opinion was taken?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Member appears to have misunderstood the answer which I gave to his previous question on the 16th instant. I did not say that any workmen had been formally consulted, but that, though they or their representatives had the opportunity of expressing their opinion at the time— both Mr. Hanlon and also, as I am now informed, Mr. Mather, the delegate for the Wellington Pit miners, being present in the office when the decision was taken— no representations were made by them until many hours afterwards. I have no doubt that, had any opinion been expressed by the workmen's representatives, at the time, it would have received consideration, but it is inconceivable that they could have brought forward any considerations which would have led to an alteration in the decision which was arrived at. Every responsible person who was consulted in the matter was entirely convinced that no other decision was possible.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the decision was not known to the miners till long after the consultation, and that as soon as the fact came to their knowledge they made representations against it?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: My information is that their delegates were in the room when the decision was taken. I have to go by the information I have received.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Has it not been decided to keep this mine closed for a further period of three months, although it is known that the fire is extinct?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: An attempt was made to penetrate the mine about a week ago, and it was found to be full of dangerous gases.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: No matter how long the mine remains closed these gases have got to be extracted. Would it not be wise in the interests of those who have been deprived of their living to open the mine as early as possible?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is rather a question of argument.

  Board of Agriculture Offices.
  Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the First Commissioner of Works whether, having regard to the increasing scope and importance of the work of the Board of Agriculture, and the fact that such work is conducted in three separate and comparatively insignificant houses, situate respectively in Whitehall Place, St. James's Square, and Parliament Street, the Government will testify to the value of the Board's activities during this the twenty-first year of its existence by providing for its accommodation one conveniently situated building befitting in size, outward appearance, and internal arrangement the national importance of its present work?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Harcourt): Work is already progressing on the new building for the Board of Agriculture, but it will not be possible to complete it this year.

  Unclaimed Balances in Colonial Banks.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked the Secretary to the Treasury when the Return of Dormant Balances and Unclaimed Securities in the hands of Colonial Bankers, ordered on 3rd March, will be issued?
  Colonel SEELY: Perhaps I may be allowed to reply to this question. The Return will be issued as soon as the requisite information has been received from the Governments of the self-governing Dominions and of the Crown Colonies.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea when the information will be received?
  Colonel SEELY: No; but as soon as it arrives we will prepare the Return. There will be no delay.

  Carriage of Live Stock (Wales).
  Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that on Wednesday, 8th June, Thomas Lewis, Aberdare, booked some live stock at Neath (G.W.R.) for Hirwain, fifteen miles distant, at 2.45 p.m.; that these did not arrive at Hirwain until 3 o'clock on the afternoon of the 9th; whether, in view of the cruelty involved to the animals and the delay, his Department will prevent a recurrence of this; (2) whether on 1st June a truck of cattle and sheep was transferred from the Brecon
  828
  and Merthyr Railway Company about 12 noon, but did not reach Aberdare until a few minutes before six, thus taking five hours to traverse a distance of about four miles; and whether, in the interest of the animals and trade of the place, he will take steps to ensure more prompt delivery of live stock and merchandise generally?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton): I have communicated with the Great Western Railway Company on the subject of these questions, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

  World's Gold Output.
  Mr. FELLasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been directed to the large and continuous increase in the world's output of gold and the simultaneous rise in the price of so many articles of consumption; and if he has any Reports or special information on the subject which he can lay before the House?
  Mr. BUXTON: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the question which he addressed to me on 22nd June. He will find some particulars as to the changes in the level of the wholesale and retail prices in recent years at pages 184–190 and 203 of the Blue Book Cd. 4954, and at pages 4 and 5 of the "Board of Trade Labour Gazette" for January last, copies of which I am sending to him.
  Mr. FELL: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman and of his officials been directed to the fact that the output of gold has increased more than 50 per cent, in the last three years? Are they specially studying this question, which is of material importance to all interests?
  Mr. BUXTON: Of course, all such questions receive the consideration of the Board of Trade. The hon. Member must feel I cannot go into the question in this way.
  Mr. FELL: I want to know if this point is being specially studied, in view of the fact that at the present moment the subject is of special importance?

  Cunard Steamers (Continental Mails).
  Mr. HORNERasked the Postmaster-General whether he can state what percentage of the mails carried by the Cunard liner "Mauretania," which ar-

  829
  rived at Fishguard on 6th June, was for the Continent and what percentage was for the United Kingdom, and, of the mails then landed for the United Kingdom, what percentage came to Ireland; and whether any agreement or agreements exist by which either the British Government or the Cunard Company are bound to expedite the Continental mails carried from New York by the Cunard steamers?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): The total number of bags of mails brought by the "Mauretania" on the occasion in question was 1,304. Of this number, 697, or 53½ per cent., were for the Continent or other destinations beyond the United Kingdom, and 607, or 46½ per cent., were for the United Kingdom. The bags for Ireland numbered 84, constituting 6.4 per cent, of the whole mail and 13.8 per cent, of the mail for the United Kingdom. Under the Universal Postal Convention each administration which adheres to the Postal Union is bound to forward the mails belonging to other administrations by the most rapid routes at its disposal for its own mails. I am in effect bound both by the letter and by the spirit of the Convention to regard foreign mails and British mails as of equal importance, and to accord to both equal facilities, and that obligation I shall in all cases fulfil.

  Local and Imperial Taxation (Readjustment).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the heavy rate burden thrown upon farmers, small holders, and tradesmen in respect of education, the maintenance of main roads, and other services of a national character, the increase of such burden every year as the direct result both of public Acts of Parliament and of the administrative fiat of Government Departments, and particularly the repeatedly expressed intention of the Government to take the earliest opportunity to readjust local and Imperial taxation, he proposes to effect such readjustment in the Budget for 1910–11, or whether, as indicated in his reply to a recent deputation from the Convention of Royal Burghs of Scotland, he proposes to defer consideration of this matter for a further period of from two to three years owing to the exceptional cost to the taxpayers of the country involved by the current shipbuilding programme?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse): I must remind the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend proposes to make his financial statement on Thursday next, and he cannot anticipate it by answering a question of this kind now.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: Is this House to understand that it is not proposed to deal with the question of alleviating local rates for another two years?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I think the hon. Member had better wait until Thursday.

  FINANCE ACT, 1909–10.

    BREWERY COMPANIES AND INCOME TAX.
    Mr. GRETTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the view taken by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue as to whether a brewery company, in making its return for assessment to Income Tax, Schedule D, may make a deduction for sums in respect of the increase in Licence Duties imposed by the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, which either by agreement with the licence-holders of houses held under any tying covenant, or, in default of agreement, by determination by the Commission6ers of Customs and Excise, such brewery company will by Statute be called upon to bear and pay out of revenue?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to him on the 14th instant. The deduction in cases of the nature referred to is primarily one for the decision of the District Commissioners of Income Tax.
    Mr. GRETTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer given on the 14th instant referred to the proposed reduction on account of the compensation charge and not to the subject referred to in this question?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: I understand the point is purely a legal one and the matter is sub judice. It is on appeal to the House of Lords and until it is decided it is impossible to come to any decision or to answer the question.
    Mr. GRETTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the case which is sub judice is one which refers only to the proposed reduction on account of the compensation charge and has nothing to do with the subject of this question?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: That is the information which reaches me: I cannot give any other answer.

    STAMP DUTIES EXEMPTION.
    Mr. SHACKLETONasked whether Section 73 of the Finance Act, 1909–10, is considered by the Inland Revenue Commissioners to exempt from increased Stamp Duties transfers the consideration for which does not exceed the value of £500, although such consideration may consist partly of a premium and partly of an annual rent, and although the transfer may be made by way of underlease?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Section 73 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, exempts such a transaction from the increased Stamp Duty only when made by way of conveyance on sale, and not when made by lease or underlease. I may add that my right hon. Friend is considering the matter.

    TEMPORARY VALUERS.
    Mr. WHELERasked whether the valuers appointed on a temporary basis under the Finance Act, 1909–10, are required to give the whole of their time to the service of the Government?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Yes, Sir, except in the case of mineral consultants.
    Lord BALCARRES: Do we understand that mineral surveyors who acquire information of a confidential character by virtue of their Government appointment are entitled to take private practice as well?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: They are allowed to continue their private practice, but are not allowed to conduct any mineral valuation apart from those which are referred to them on behalf of the Government.
    Lord BALCARRES: But they are at liberty to continue their private mineral practice?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Yes; that is what I understand to be the case.

    OUT-OF-DATE RETURNS.
    EARL of RONALDSHAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any concession has been made to those persons who are entitled to relief under Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1907, who failed to make the necessary return before 30th September, 1909; and, if not, whether, under the unprecedented circumstances, he will grant an extension of time in order to allow of the relief being claimed?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, my right hon. Friend sees no sufficient reason for adopting the course suggested by the hon. Member.

    Old Age Pension Claims (Ireland).
    Mr. BOLANDasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has made inquiry into the claim for an old age pension lodged by Johanna Falvey, Farren reigh, Valentia; and can he state the re suit?
    The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): The pension officer appealed on the ground that Johanna Falvey was under the statutory age, and the Local Government Board upheld the appeal.
    Mr. BOLANDasked the Chief Secretary whether he can state on what grounds Daniel Connell, Fermoyle, Cahirciveen, has not yet received his old age pension?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The Local Government Board disallowed the pension in this case because no satisfactory evidence was produced as to Daniel Connell's age. It is open to Connell to make a fresh claim, and, if he does so and the matter comes before the Board, they will have careful inquiry made into the facts which the hon. Member has brought to my notice.

    Charlton Endowment (Meath, Westmeath and Longford).
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction with the administration of the Charlton Endowment Charity, in Meath, Westmeath, and Longford; whether some endowments are given by a system of chance, some by favour; and if he will say by whom the administrators are appointed, and in whom rests the power of introducing an impartial scheme of administration?
    Mr. BIRRELL: I am not aware of any dissatisfaction with the administration of this endowment, which is conducted under a scheme framed in pursuance of the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Act, 1885. The power of altering the scheme rests with the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests.

    Land Purchase (Westmeath and Down).
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary if he will say what prevents the completion of the sale of the Featherston-

    833
    Whitney estate, New pass, Westmeath, seeing that the tenants have for five years been paying 4 per cent, interest on the purchase-money, being in effect an addition to the agreed price; whether he will take any steps to relieve them of this burden by accelerating the completion of the sale; and when the untenanted land on the estate will be vested in the approved applicants?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have no power to deal with this estate out of its turn, but, having regard to its place on the priority list, they hope that it may be vested in the tenants next year.
    Mr. MacVEAGHasked the Chief Secretary whether he is yet in a position to state when the Kilmorey estate, county Down, will be vested in the tenants; and whether he can state the cause of the delay?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have this estate at present in hand with a view to vesting the holdings in the tenants, which will be completed-as soon as possible. It is a very large property, comprising some 1,630 holdings, and other estates in priority to it had to be dealt with first.

    Cattle-driving (Ireland).
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the cattle and sheep of Mr. John Wyse were driven from the lands of Miss Somerville, at Glanarail, on 23rd May; whether any of the cattle were mutilated on that occasion; if so, in what way; and whether any persons have been arrested in connection with the offence?
    Mr. BIRRELL: Some cattle belonging to Mr. John Coyne and other graziers were driven off the farm in question on the night of 23rd May. Six cows were injured by having part of their tails cut off, and the hair was cut off the tails of four others. No arrests have been made.
    Mr. CHARLES CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that on the night of 1st June the cattle of Mr. Jeeves and Mr. Bryan Farrell, at Streamstown, Moate, were driven for a second time; whether the cattle are under police protection and the farm constantly patrolled; and whether any arrests have been made in connection with the offence?
    Mr. BIRRELL: I am informed by the constabulary authorities that the cattle belonging to these two persons were driven on 11th May and on 1st June. On the first occasion two women and a boy were arrested and brought before a magistrate who discharged them, as Mr. Jeeves and his herd, who were necessary witnesses, declined to attend. No arrests were made in connection with the second drive. The police did not see it, and the owners would not give them any help towards a prosecution. The farm is kept under observation by the police, and is visited by occasional patrols.
    Mr. C. CRAIG: Have the police not power to compel the attendance of witnesses in a case like this?
    Mr. BIRRELL: No, that is not so.
    Captain CRAIG: Have the police instructions not to compel these people to attend?
    Mr. BIRRELL: No instructions of the kind.
    Mr. C. CRAIG: Will the right hon. Gentleman give them instructions in a case like this to compel witnesses to attend?
    Mr. MacVEAGH: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that this man is afraid of the two women and one boy?
    Mr. C. CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that on 3rd June a number of. cattle, sheep, and lambs, the property of Mr. Michael Costello, were driven off a farm held by him at Bushey Park; whether Mr. Costello has had to give up a farm at Ballybrit owing to boycotting and cattle-driving; and what steps are being taken to afford Mr. Costello's property protection from further outrage?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The statements in the question with regard to Mr. Costello are correct. All necessary protection has been and will be afforded to him.

    United Irish Land League.
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the action of the Cloonguish branch of the United Irish League in condemning Mr. Pat Hughes, D.C., Drumlish, for keeping company with the Crown witnesses in Longford, and calling upon the Drumlish branch to deal with Mr. Hughes as his conduct deserves; and whether any steps are being taken to afford protection to Mr. Hughes and his property?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The meeting at which the resolution referred to is said to have been passed took place indoors, and the police cannot say what actually took place. They inform me that Mr. Hughes is very popular in and around Drumlish, and that no special police protection is necessary in his case.
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed at a demonstration of the United Irish League at Geevagh on Sunday, 12th June, in which the Killamy grabber was condemned for still retaining his land; whether the person referred to is under police protection; and, if not, what steps are being taken to protect his life and property?
    Mr. BIRRELL: My attention has been called to the resolution in question. The person whose action" was condemned died some months ago. His family continue to hold the lands referred to in the resolution, and are protected by frequent police patrols.

    Boycotting and Police Protection (Ireland).
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary what is the number of farms the occupiers of which are under police protection, and what is the number of police engaged on such duties?
    Mr. BIRRELL: Sixteen occupiers of farms are under constant police protection and forty-six police are employed on this duty. The number of occupiers of farms protected by occasional patrols is 139. The number of police employed on such patrols cannot be stated with precision as different men perform the duty at different times.
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether Mr. Neville Clarke, of Graiguenoe Park, Holycross, Thurles, and any of the men employed by him, are still boycotted; and, if so, what is the number of police engaged in protecting them?
    Mr. BIRRELL: Mr. Clarke is still partially boycotted, but I understand that the men employed by him are not boycotted. A sergeant and four constables are employed in protecting them with the occasional assistance of an additional constable from Holycross.
    Captain CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether he had the official police report of the speech delivered by the
    836
    hon. Member for King's County at Bell Hill, near Birr, in which he advised his audience to bring their resources,, constitutional or otherwise, to bear on Mr. Goodbody if he refused to sell his land; and whether any steps are being taken to afford Mr. Goodbody and his property protection from the consequences of this advice?
    Mr. BIRRELL: I have seen the police report of the speech referred to. The police are taking all necessary steps to protect Mr. Goodbody and his property.

    Auxiliary Police Barracks (Moate).
    Mr. C. CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary whether the police authorities have recently opened an auxiliary barracks at Moate; and, if so, what is the extra police force it is proposed to accommodate therein; and what will be the cost incurred by the ratepayers of the locality in respect of the additional police?
    Mr. BIRRELL: An additional police barrack has been opened at Moate as, in consequence of the disturbed state of the Moate and Mount Temple police districts, it has been found necessary to send an additional force of fifteen men for service there. The cost to the ratepayers of the locality will be about £517 per annum.
    Mr. C. CRAIG: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what is the cause of the disturbance in this district?
    Mr. BIRRELL: No, I could not do so. If the hon. Member gives me notice I will inquire.

    Agrarian Outrages (Ireland).
    Mr. C. CRAIGasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that at the Listowel Quarter Sessions John O'Connor, of Mountcool, was awarded £10 compensation for the killing of one of his cattle and the injury to another by having their throats cut; and whether anyone has been made amenable for the offence?
    Mr. BIRRELL: Compensation was granted as stated. The cattle were found in a bog—one drowned and the other with its throat cut. The police have not been able to bring the persons who injured the cattle to justice.
    Mr. C. CRAIGasked what was the number of agrarian outrages reported by the constabulary for the first five months of 1905 and 1910?
    Mr. BIRRELL: In the first five months of 1905 143 agrarian outrages were reported and 196 in the first five months of 1910. These figures include threatening letters.

    Police Protection (Mr. Edward Barry, M.P.).
    Mr. C. CRAIGasked how many constables are or have recently been engaged in protecting the cattle of Mr. Edward Barry, M.P., on the Castlefreke ranch; and what has been the charge on the public funds in respect of police protection afforded to Mr. Barry's bullocks?
    Mr. BIRRELL: I understand that the grazing on Lord Carbery's demesne, at Castlefreke, is let on the eleven months system to the hon. Member for South Cork, and eight other persons. To prevent the cattle in the demesne being driven three additional constables have been sent as a temporary measure to the neighbouring police station. This does not entail any additional charge to the public, as the men belong to the ordinary county force.

    Injury to Roads (Traction Engines).
    Mr. HORNERasked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the judgments given in the King's Bench Division in Ireland in the case of the Cavan County Council, v. Kane, in which the defendant, the owner of a traction engine, was held liable for substantial damages for injury done to a public road by his traction engine merely travelling along the road with empty trucks; and whether, in view of the general application of this decision, he will introduce legislation on the subject?
    Mr. BIRRELL: My attention has been called to the judgment referred to, which would appear to go a long way towards meeting the demand for an assimilation of the English and Irish law on this subject. If the hon. Member means to suggest that the owners of traction engines should be exempted from liability for damage to roads, I cannot agree with him.

    Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland).
    Captain CRAIGasked the Prime Minister whether he has requested Mr. T. W. Russell to resign his position as Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, in accordance with the statement made by the Chief Secretary in 1907 that the Govern-
    838
    ment had definitely and determinately decided that the office should be held by a Member of the House of Commons; and, if not, what is the reason for the delay in securing a representation of the Department by a Minister in the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): When Mr. Russell failed to obtain re-election he placed himself unreservedly in the hands of the Government, and there has, therefore, been no necessity to ask him to resign. The Government have not altered their opinion that the office of Vice-President should be held by a Member of this House, but they value Mr. Russell's services, and hold that a reasonable time should be allowed him to obtain another seat.
    Captain CRAIG: How many seats have been vacant in Ireland since this gentleman was rejected by South Tyrone, and can the right hon. Gentleman state what he considers a reasonable time for the House not to be properly treated by not having a representative of the Department in it?
    Mr. MacNEILL: Just to refresh our memory. How long was it that Sir Horace Plunkett held office without a seat in this House?
    Captain CRAIG: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot create another peer to make a vacancy?

    East India (Financial Statement).
    Mr. KEIR HARDIEasked the Prime Minister whether he can name a date for the introduction of the Indian Budget?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is not at present possible to fix a date; but, in accordance with my usual practice, I will give full notice to the House.
    Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Will it be early in July?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hope so.
    EARL of RONALDSHAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Indian Financial Statement and the Report of the proceedings of the Viceroy's Council thereon are not in the hands of hon. Members, and will he allow Members some time in which to consider them before the Indian Budget is taken?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes.

TOWYN CHURCH SCHOOL.
Mr. ORMSBY-GOREasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will reconsider his decision to remove the Towyn Church School from the grant list until the House has had an opportunity of discussing the matter upon the Education Vote?
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Runciman): My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary answered this question yesterday. The decision announced by me last week cannot be reconsidered. It will, of course, be open to the supporters of the Church school at a later date to give notice under Section 8 of the Act of 1902 of their intention to provide a new school with a view to having the school replaced on the Annual Grant List. In that case the question would be considered de novo, but I should be obliged to refuse to entertain any such proposition except in the light of new and material facts.
Lord HUGH CECIL: Do I understand that the position of the Board of Education is this, that they are going to strike the school off the Grant List the day after to-morrow and refuse either to postpone it, to listen to the petition of the parents, or to give the House an opportunity of discussing the matter?
Mr. RUNCIMAN: No, that is hot the position. I announced last week, and it was repeated by the Parliamentary Secretary yesterday, that the decision of the Board of Education had been given after all the material facts had been considered, including that of the desire of the parents.

MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.
Mr. ORMSBY-GOREasked leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of calling attention to a matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the decision of the Board of Education to remove the Towyn Church School from the Grant List upon the day after to-morrow."
Mr. SPEAKER: The action of the President of the Board of Education is taken under Statute. The hon. Member asks him to revise that action. He has no power to revise it.
Lord HUGH CECIL: Oh, yes he has.
Mr. SPEAKER: If the Noble Lord questions my statement I have no more to say.

LAWLESSNESS IN IRELAND.

  MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.
  Captain CRAIGasked leave to move the adjournment of the House in order to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the lawless conditions prevailing in certain parts of Ireland and the refusal of His Majesty's Government to vindicate the law by bringing to justice the perpetrators of agrarian outrage."
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think the proposal of the hon. and gallant Gentleman is too indefinite. The Order of the House is that a Motion can only be made for the adjournment to discuss definite matters. The Motion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman savours of the old notion of asking the House to resolve itself into-Committee to consider the state of the nation. The proper course is to invite the Prime Minister to put down the salary of the Chief Secretary, and then he will have a full and ample opportunity of discussing the matter which he wishes to-raise.
  Mr. C. CRAIG: Will the Prime Minister put down the salary of the Chief Secretary for discussion at an early date that we may have an opportunity of discussing; the state of Ireland?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I will enter into communications with the authorised representatives of the party opposite.
  Several other Members took and subscribed the Oath, and one other Member made and subscribed the Affirmation required by Law.
  NEW MEMBER SWORN.—William Abraham, esquire, for the Borough of Dublin (Dublin Harbour Division).

PRESENTATION OF BILL.
  TERRITORIAL FORCE BALLOT BILL.
  "To amend and apply the Militia-Ballot Acts to the Territorial Force," presented by Sir SAMUEL SCOTT; supported by Mr. Ashley, Viscount Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Captain Cooper, and Mr. Boynton; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

DORMANT BANK BALANCES AND UNCLAIMED SECURITIES.
Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked for leave to introduce a Bill to compel bankers to make periodical returns of all dormant balances and unclaimed securities in their hands. The apology I offer to the House in asking permission to intrude for a few moments on its attention at this stage is the fact that for some years past, on the eve of the introduction of the Budget, I have ventured to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer certain sources of revenue which were available to him without in any way involving a fiscal revolution, and the reason why I ask permission to deal with this proposal in this way is this, that it of necessity involves special legislation, and therefore could not be included in the provisions of the Finance Bill without adopting the system of "tacking," against which everybody knows the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government have sternly set their faces. The object of this Bill, in a sentence, is this: To call upon the bankers of the United Kingdom to disclose at a date, which I suggest as in January next and at periodical dates, the amounts of dormant balances and unclaimed securities in their hands, these dormant balances and unclaimed securities being denned as balances with which the owners have in no way operated for a period of six years, and securities which have in no way been claimed; and, having disclosed them, it is proposed that at a subsequent date they should hand them over to a department or public trustee, to be held, first of all, in trust for the rightful owners, if they happen to turn up, and in the meantime for the benefit of the State. The theory of this Bill is this, that England, having been the home of bankers, the industry of banking having been carried on in this country for several centuries, it follows as a matter of course, quite apart from the question of ascertain-able fact, that in the course of that long period vast sums of money and vast securities have accumulated in the hands of bankers, the owners of which have been lost sight of, and the benefit of which is being held, therefore, by those bankers as their own property, with no effort being made to find, on the contrary every difficulty being placed in the way of finding, the rightful owner. On two previous occasions when I had the privilege of introducing this Bill I have been opposed by Gentlemen who had had
842
special experience of banking, and in each case they assumed most erroneously that every banker holds such property as trustee for the owner as soon as ever the owner becomes known. I have not the opportunity under this procedure of dealing with these hon. Gentlemen, and I only desire to bring before the House this remarkable fact, that according to the law of the country as it stands to-day—the learned Solicitor-General (Sir Rufus Isaacs) is present and can correct me if I am wrong—a law based upon certain obsolete decisions, briefly the position is that after the expiration of six years, every penny and every security in the hands of bankers which has not been claimed become the bankers' property. That, I submit, is a state of things which this House ought not to permit to exist. I have in my possession, open to the examination, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he cares to see them, 150 cases in which vast sums of money are now being held by bankers to which they have no moral claim whatever. I have already brought to the notice of the House the case of an old lady, which is well authenticated, though the hon. Member for Montgomery threw some doubt upon it last year. The old lady had £28,000 lodged in a joint-stock bank, and, being of eccentric habits, she regularly went to the bank year after year, and, having counted the notes and satisfied herself that the whole sum was there, turned and said to the manager, "Good morning," and nothing more was seen of her for twelve months. That went on for many years; but for the last seven years the old lady has not been seen, and the £28,000 is still lying in the bank, and except for the sources of information which I personally have no one would know of its existence. I have mentioned the tragical case which appeals to every Member of the House—that of the mother of one of the officers of the submarine which went down under such sad circumstances a few years ago. She assured me that before the boy died—and she gave evidence of it —he had put £400 or £500 in the bank as provision for her old age. She tramped London and the country and circularised the banks, asking them for information with regard to this £400 or £500. Without exception the reply was always the same— that they answered no questions and could not give any information. I may mention, among others, the case of one private bank which was recently removed to other premises. In taking away some old deed boxes deeds and securities of great value

843
fell upon the ground. I could give evidence to the House that balances are passed on from year to year in private banks and remain in the possession of those banks. I could go on enumerating case after case until the House would weary. That there are cases in the experience of every Member is beyond question.
Only a day or two ago I had a letter from a gentleman who was once a Member of this House (Mr. Pritchard Morgan), in which he says that the Government would reap a fine harvest from these sums. He gives two instances which occurred to him personally. Fourteen years ago he went to Australia on business, where he had an account with the branch of a leading bank. Two or three years ago he received a letter stating that the branch had closed, and that a certain balance to his credit had been removed to another branch. He went to the head office in London and asked for the amount, and they claimed 1 per cent, for expenses, though the bank had had the interest on his money for many years. In 1900, he adds, he lost the seat which he had held some years previously. In that constituency he had opened an account with the local bank, and during the last election he returned there, and proceeded to open an account with the same bank for the expenses of the contest. He was informed that there was a considerable balance standing to his credit. He jocularly remarked, "If I had not made up my mind to contest the seat, probably I would never have heard of it." The bank official simply said, "Probably not."
This law, which I have explained again and again, prevails in most of our Colonies and in most civilised countries. In Australia, in the very first year the law was in operation, upwards of £100,000 was handed over. I have here a volume containing last year's Return for Canada. The hon. Member for Montgomery looks with curiosity on that book, which contains nearly a thousand pages. Unclaimed balances in the banks of countries like Canada are not of such volume as is the case with old established banks in London and the United Kingdom. I was rather impelled to bring this matter forward today, because in a recent Report of the Public Accounts Committee to this House I find this paragraph under the heading "Mafeking Siege Notes":—
"Included in the amount of the balances unsupported by adequate accounts is a sum of £4,590, recovered in the following exceptional circumstances from the
844
Standard Bank of South Africa. During the siege of Mafeking the supply of cash in the town ran short, and the Commanding Officer created a paper currency redeemable at the Mafeking branch of the bank on the restoration of civil law, of which notes and coupons to the value of £5,228 were issued. But after the relief of the town the notes and coupons were extensively bought as mementoes of the siege, and the paper presented for payment only amounted to £638, leaving a balance of £4,590 outstanding. Although civil law was resumed in 1902, no steps were taken to obtain an account of the actual sums paid by the bank until January, 1908, when the Paymaster brought the matter to the notice of the chief accountant of the South African Command, and negotiations were opened which resulted in the bank repaying the whole amount of the outstanding currencies."
I do say to the House, in all seriousness, that this is a matter which really ought to receive attention. It is not a party matter. The Bill was read a first time on the two previous occasions by majorities of something like three or four to one, representing all sections of the House. I ask Members to give the First Reading to the Bill with the sole object, having obtained facilities for the Second Reading, of securing some Committee to inquire into the whole subject, and I believe that the result of such an inquiry would be a great surprise to the country and a veritable godsend to the Exchequer.
Sir J. D. REES: Whatever may be the case in regard to Canada, I think the hon. Member is entirely mistaken in supposing that there are very large unclaimed balances in the banks of this country. I believe that to be entirely contrary to the fact, and the hon. Member himself is entirely unable to produce the slightest proof that there are. Again he has introduced the old lady who regularly appeared year after year at the bank to see about her £28,000, and now we learn that she has not been there for seven years. Most likely the old lady may turn up again, she may revert to" her old habits, and meanwhile the bank will keep the balance, and will not inform Ministers and others about the private affairs of their clients. I know to what bank the hon. Gentleman refers when he speaks of the removal of boxes from one place to another, and of valuable securities and jewels that kept falling on to the pavement of the Strand. I believe that all this is an absolute myth, and not nearly so well substantiated as the discovery of the mountain of gold in British Columbia.
4.0 P.M.
The hon. Member instanced a case, and I was surprised he picked it out, of a man who died under tragic circumstances in the performance of his duty, because, except for the pathetic note, it is entirely apart from the object of the Bill. He told us

845
that the man died, and that no money was found in any bank. That is easily explained by the fact that the man had left no money, and there is no criticism against the bank on that account. The hon. Member also told us he could give case after case, but he only repeated this year the cases he gave last year so that the House will see the class of case which he is able to put before it. I submit that the banks of this country exceedingly well perform their duties because they hold on to their clients' property. That is the right thing for a bank to do, and not to hand it over to anybody in the world except the client. As soon as information got out the Chancellor of the Exchequer or others would come and put a tax on, and that is not the object of the banker. It is not his object to facilitate taxation, or to help any public officials, or any other persons in the world but his clients. I submit that the banks do well to perform that duty, and that there is no need to have this Bill.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bottomley, Mr. Hemmerde, Sir Henry Dalziel, Mr. John Ward, Mr. Llewellyn Williams, Mr. O'Grady, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Martin, Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Atherley-Jones, Mr. Condon, and Mr. Belloc. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

ACCESSION DECLARATION.
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)asked for leave to introduce a "Bill to alter the form of the Declaration required to be made by the Sovereign on Accession."
I ask leave, Sir, to introduce a Bill which in form is the simplest and consists practically only of a single Clause, and which, after being fully considered—and I hope no hasty conclusions will be formed with regard to it—I trust will be regarded in most quarters of the House as uncontroversial in its character. It is a Bill the object of which is as described in the title, "To alter the form of the Declaration required to be made by the Sovereign on Accession." I must say a word, first, as to the history of that Declaration. Curiously enough, in its inception, and indeed for many years after it had taken its place in the Statute Book, it had nothing whatever to do with the Accession to the Throne, and the Sovereign was not required to take it. It came into exis-
846
tence in the year 1678, when Parliament and the great mass of the population of this country were in a state, it may almost be said, of panic, in consequence of the revelations, or supposed revelations, of the existence and the ramifications of the Popish Plot; and in the state which at that moment prevailed this Act was passed through both Houses of Parliament, and it was described under this title: As "an Act for the more effectual preservation of the King's person and Government by disabling Papists from sitting in either House of Parliament." That was the purview and object of the Act. The Declaration was a Declaration to be made by all Members of both Houses of Parliament, and by those who were described in the Act as the sworn servants of the Sovereign, and I think by nobody else. Its practical purpose and effect was simply this: Roman Catholic peers, who up to that time had not been subject, as Members of this House were, to what is called "the Oath of Supremacy," those Roman Catholic Peers, who had continued to sit in the House of Lords and exercise the ordinary functions of Members of that Assembly, were deprived of their legislative powers, and never able to exercise them again until the Relief Act was passed in 1829. It is curious to add, and historically interesting, that the concluding Section of the Act, Section 9, provides that nothing in the Act shall extend to the Duke of York.
I will not read the Declaration in extensor to the House. Its terms, through constant public criticism, are very familiar to us all. The Declaration, when it is analysed, consists of three parts. In the first place, the person making it declares that he does not believe, or rather that he does believe, there is not any Transubstantiation of the elements in the Holy Communion. He goes on to declare that the invocation or adoration of the Virgin Mary or any other Saint, and the sacrifice of the Mass as they are now used in the Church of Rome, are superstitious and idolatrous. Finally, he adds that he makes the preceding Declaration in the plain and ordinary sense of the words as they are commonly understood by English Protestants, without any dispensation or hope of dispensation from the Pope or any other authority. Let us in this matter not be unjust to our ancestors. This Declaration, as I have said, was framed in a time of great popular excitement, and in the belief, the sincere though ill-founded belief, that a great conspiracy was being

847
hatched to murder the Sovereign, to subvert the Protestant religion, and to destroy the liberties of our people. Those were not days in which mealy-mouthedness in language was fashionable, but I do not think that any candid student will deny that the language of the Declaration, although it grates and grates, I think justly with a different accent, on the ears, can be paralleled by similar language to be found in the Thirty-nine Articles and other passages of the Prayer Book, and I am not even sure that the Church of Rome herself has not in the course of her history enjoined the use of language equally strong upon her own children, and certainly upon converts to her faith, in abjuration and denunciation of the Protestant doctrines. All these things should be remembered from the point of view of historical justice.
How came it that this Declaration, originally imposed only on Members of Parliament and servants of the Crown, was extended to the Crown itself? That extension did not take place until the passing of the Bill of Rights by the Statute, the first of William and Mary, Chap. 2. The Preamble of that Statute explains how it was that the operative part, the obligation of taking this Declaration, was for the first time cast on the occupants of the Throne. The preamble recites, "Where as the late King James II., by the assistance of divers evil counsellors, judges and Ministers, did endeavour to subvert and extirpate the Protestant religion and laws and liberties of this Kingdom." It is in pursuance of that recital and grounded upon it that the tenth Section of the Statute provides, "Every Sovereign succeeding to the Throne shall on the day of the meeting of the first Parliament after his Accession or at his Coronation, make the Declaration mentioned in the Statute of Charles II." In consequence of the failure of heirs it was necessary to provide for the succession to the Throne, and in the Act itself that provision of the Bill of Rights, by Section 2 of the Act of Settlement, was repeated in regard to any persons who thereafter under the limitations of that Act succeeded to the Crown. So that the House will observe the Declaration, originally framed with a different purpose, intended for an entirely different class of person, a Declaration intended to protect the Crown against evil counsellors, was, in the course of time, and only in the course of time, and in consequence of the Statute that the Bill of Rights re-
848
cities in the reign if James II., extended to the Crown itself. That was in the year 1700.
No candid person will deny that circumstances in all material respects are vitally changed since. What has happened in the interval? The Roman Catholic citizens of this country have been admitted to all civil, and practically to all political rights. There are still, I regret to say, one or two offices, but only one or two, from which their faith excludes them, and I trust that that illiberal relic of past times will before long be obliterated. But with that practically insignificant exception our Roman Catholic fellow subjects stand before the law as regards the exercise of political privileges and the holding of political views exactly on the same footing as any Protestant. Those Roman Catholic subjects of the Crown have grown enormously in number, and, if I may say so, in importance. They are spread over the length and breadth of the British Empire. They are said to amount, and I have no reason to question the estimate, to 12,000,000 in number. No one in these days doubts their loyalty, or supposes that that loyalty requires to be hedged round by special safeguards. Further, the whole system of religious tests which looked, and which was so far formidable, in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries has fallen into discredit, and has been undermined in every direction. You could have no more remarkable proof of that than that this very Declaration, framed under the circumstances and purposes which I have described, is now required to be taken by no one in the length and breadth of the British Empire but by the Sovereign himself.
One must add that the language, which in the seventeenth century seemed natural and even normal, falls with a very different accent on modern ears, and in this case I do not hesitate to say—and I believe I am echoing the opinion of the vast majority of this House, as well as of the people outside—it is needlessly, and even wantonly offensive. Nor do I believe that the objection of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to this Declaration, which is taken by the Sovereign, and by the Sovereign alone at the beginning of his reign, at the solemn moment when he is entering upon the discharge of duties which require him to appeal to the loyalty and affection of all his subjects, without distinction of creed or race—I conceive that the objection of our Roman

849
Catholic fellow-subjects to that Declaration is not confined to the precise language or to the use of particular vituperative epithets; but it extends, and I think justly extends, to the singling out of special and to them sacred and most highly cherished doctrines, as though from some peculiar obliquity of their own they required what no other form of religious heresy or religious dissent in the country is regarded as requiring, namely, the special repudiation of the Sovereign as soon as he enters upon his Throne. I should add to that, because I think it is a very material element in the case, that this Declaration, offensive as it must be, and, as we know it is to the susceptibilities of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, cannot fail to be offensive to the Sovereign himself. I am not permitted to say anything in regard to our present Sovereign, but we know very well that the late King, whose death we have been lamenting, found it a most repugnant duty cast upon him by law to have to signalise the very beginning of his reign by uttering this obsolete formula, which seemed to be directed against so many of his most loyal subjects. I do not think that is an element which ought to be left out of consideration when we are discussing the merits of the retention of this form of words.
I think it is clear from this brief review of the history of the matter that the dangers against which the Declaration when it was imposed on the Sovereign, was supposed to guard, are dangers which have no actual existence at the present day. And if they did exist, if there were any possibility, which we know there is not, of a conspiracy to change the faith of the Sovereign, or to put a Sovereign of a different faith on the Throne of these islands, that danger is amply guarded against by other statutory enactments. Let me remind the House what they are. In the first place, you have the Bill of Rights itself, which provides in Section 9, "Every person reconciled to, or holding communion with the See, or the Church of Rome, or professing the Popish Religion, or marrying a Papist, is to be excluded from and incapable of inheriting or enjoying the Crown"—a provision which is repeated in almost identical terms in Section 2 of the Act of Settlement. That is a negative provision. The Act of Settlement affirmatively provides that "whosoever shall hereafter come to the possession of this Throne shall join in communion with the Church of England
850
as by law established." Finally, another statute, I. William and Mary, cap. 6, which provides the form of the Coronation Oaths, requires the Sovereign at his Coronation solemnly to promise that he will "maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the Gospel, and the Protestant Reformed Religion as established by law." Are not these three distinct statutory safeguards sufficient without any further provision of any sort or kind? I myself am not hesitating to express the opinion that we might safely dispense with any Declaration; but I know there are those who hold, and I think their opinions are entitled to respect, that if you had no Declaration at all there would be nothing on the Statute Book which would require any statement of the Sovereign's personal belief. I confess I should have thought myself that no one—at least I should doubt whether any one—could take the Coronation Oath, to maintain the Protestant Reformed Religion as established by law, if he were an honest and sincere Roman Catholic. But it is said—I do not profess to know how that may be precisely—that you might have a conceivable case of a Roman Catholic Sovereign succeeding by inheritance to the dominion of a Protestant country, who might quite honestly say, "I will maintain the Protestant religion, which is the religion of the majority of my subjects, although I hold my own personal belief." At any rate, we are proposing by this Bill, not to get rid of the Declaration altogether, but to substitute for it one which will involve a Declaration of the Sovereign's personal belief, and will do so in terms which we believe and hope cannot possibly give offence to anyone of the Sovereign's subjects.
I will read the form of words which we propose, in the Schedule of this Bill, to substitute for the existing Declaration. They are as follows:—
"I"—(then follows the name of the Sovereign)—"do solemnly and sincerely, in the presence of God, profess, testify, and declare that I am a faithful member of the Protestant Reformed Church as by Law established in England; and I will, according to the true intent of the enactments which secure the Protestant succession to the Throne of my realm, uphold and maintain the said enactments to the best of my powers, according to Law."
The House will observe that that Declaration differs from the present one in this vital respect. Instead of negatively singling out for repudiation distinct and

851
highly cherished doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, it positively affirms on the part of the Sovereign that he is a faithful member of the Protestant Reformed Church. I do not think that any Roman Catholic who admits, as all Roman Catholics do, that we are right in safeguarding the Protestant succession to the Crown, can find in these words anything which can give the least offence to his conscience, or even to his tenderest susceptibilities. On the other hand, from the Protestant point of view—and I speak as one of the most convinced and resolute Protestants in this country—the words seem to us to carry us the whole length we require to go. There is nothing new in them. Some of my hon. Friends may have noticed the words, "Protestant Reformed Church as by Law established." But those are the words which are already in the Act of Settlement. You cannot get out of them. I read the Section a few moments ago. The insertion of the words "Protestant" and "Reformed," which are not found in that Section, seem to us to give strength and additional definiteness to the Protestant character of the Declaration. If it is said that these words are unnecessarily introduced, I reply again that both in the Bill of Eights and in the provisions of the Act of Settlement, that language is employed. The Church of England is described, and some people in these days do not like to see it so described, as the Protestant Church and as the Reformed Church. At least, the religion taught by the Church of England is described as the Protestant and Reformed Religion. If we have, as we shall have if the House adopts our proposal, a distinct and definite affirmation on the part of the Sovereign, that he is a faithful member of that Church, and will, according to the true intent of those enactments which secure the Protestant succession to the Throne, faithfully carry out the provision to which I have already referred, it appears to His Majesty's Government that we have got every safeguard which human wisdom, and I was almost going to say human suspicion, could require. At the same time, we remove from the Sovereign himself an intolerable burden, and from our Roman Catholic fellow subjects a legitimate cause of grievance. On these grounds I commend this Bill to the careful consideration of the House.
May I add one word? I have not introduced the Bill, as I might have done,
852
under the Ten Minute Rule, because of the importance and gravity of the subject. I thought it would be hardly treating it with proper respect. At the same time, I would earnestly deprecate at this stage anything in the nature of prolonged or acrimonious discussion. I think it is most desirable that hon. Members should study the Bill, and ample opportunity will be given before the Second Reading. When you are dealing with a form of words like this, carefully chosen, it is surely better to have them before you in black and white, and to be able to study them at leisure, than to come to a precipitate conclusion about them. I would, therefore, ask the House, without in any way curtailing its full liberty of discussion, to allow us at the earliest possible moment to introduce and circulate the Bill, which I am confident, on mature consideration, will receive the support of the vast majority of the House.
Mr. BALFOUR: I do not rise to argue the question which has been brought to the notice of the House in the very interesting and able speech of the Prime Minister. I rather rise to join in the appeal which he made at the end of his speech that the Debate and discussion— the inevitable Debate and inevitable discussion—should be deferred until the Second Reading, when the country will have had an opportunity of considering the general proposal of change in the Declaration in the light of the particular change which the Government have brought before us, and when Members of this House will be able to consider whether they believe any possible danger to the Protestant succession is involved in the change which the Government propose. As the House knows, we on this bench were very anxious to make a change in the Declaration of the Sovereign when the late lamented King came to the Throne. The opinions we then held we hold now. We think that a change ought to be made, and in the main for the reasons so clearly expounded in the speech to which we have just listened. If there is anything to add to that speech, or any part of that speech which might perhaps receive even greater emphasis than was given to it by the Prime Minister, it is that aspect of the question which requires us to take account, not merely of the changes of view which general society has gone through in regard to religious tests in the last two hundred and more years, but the enormous change which has taken place in the position of the Sovereign in those two hundred

853
years. When this legislation was I passed it was passed by a House which represented England alone, and the Sovereign was considered by that House as the King of England. Our Sovereign is a King and Emperor who rules over the most diverse races, and over Colonies far separated, varying greatly in religion. I should take it to be difficult to catalogue the number of religions which are now professed by loyal subjects of the Crown. To the Sovereign, therefore, a change is vital to any rational declaration he is required to make. It certainly seems to me that if we can absolutely safeguard—as I think we have absolutely safeguarded—the Protestant succession to the Throne of these Realms, the least we can do is to consult the susceptibilities of important sections of the King's most loyal subjects, and remove everything that can reasonably or rationally give offence to a single one of our fellow citizens.
Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND: As it was my duty on three occasions to introduce Bills to this House on behalf of the party to which I belong I hope I may be allowed to say a very few words, while at the same time agreeing with the appeal of the Prime Minister that full Debate in this matter should be postponed until the Second Reading stage. As far as I can gather from the statement made by the Prime Minister—a statement which I am glad to say appears to have been thoroughly endorsed by the Leader of the Opposition—the main grievance which Catholics in this House and in the country have complained of, has been, as far as one can gather, fairly met. Our grievance never merely was that the language employed against ourselves and our religion was violent, abusive, and vulgar. Our great grievance was that our religion, and our religion alone of all the various beliefs in the world, was singled out by the King at the most solemn moment of his life for vehement and violent repudiation. So far as I can gather from the speech of the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman proposes to substitute for the offensive Declaration of old a statement on behalf of the King which merely affirms quite definitely his own belief in the Protestant religion and his own determination to maintain that religion as established by law in this country. If that be the object of the right hon. Gentleman's Bill I think it is an object which, so far as I know, no Roman Catholic can have any reasonable objec-
854
tion to. Of course nobody can expect a Roman Catholic, like many of the Irish Members of this House, to say that they endorse or share in a statement of Protestantism that might be made by His Majesty the King or by anybody else. At the same time there is not, so far as I know, any disposition on the part of Catholics, high or low, to challenge the right of the people of this country, which is mainly Protestant, to take whatever steps they may consider necessary to-secure the Protestantism of their Sovereign and the Protestant Succession to the Throne. This is after all an act of justice —and I make bold to say a tardy act of justice—to millions of His Majesty's subjects. At the same time, I believe it is an act which has been loudly called for by the public opinion of the world, far outside the dominions of His Majesty's British Empire. Moreover, I say that it is not merely an endeavour to remove a great and unjust grievance to Catholics in the world, but it is an. act of simple justice to His Majesty the King himself and to the Protestant people of this country. I do not propose at all to depart from the example—which I may be allowed to say I consider excellent—set by the Prime Minister of not indulging in anything which may give rise to controversy; but I would like to be allowed to point out very respectfully the concluding words of the Declaration. I do so for the purpose of making it clear, as I think I shall be able to do to the House at large, that this Declaration is not merely an insult to the Catholic people of the Empire and the world, but that it really casts a real insult upon the language of His Majesty the King himself. What does the Declaration say? After repudiating in violent language—after using the words "superstitious and idolatrous" towards the Catholics and their belief, the Declaration imposes upon the King the necessity of making the following statement:—
"I doe make this declaration and every part thereof in the plaine and ordinary sence of the words read unto me as they are commonly understood by English Protestants without any evasion, equivocation or mentall reservation whatsoever and without any dispensation already granted me for this purpose by the Pope or any other authority or persons whatsoever or without any hope of any such dispensation from any person or authority whatsoever or without thinking that I am or can be acquitted before God or man or absolved of this declaration or any part thereof although the Pope or any other person or persons or power whatsoever should dispence with or annull the same, or declare that it was null and void from the beginning."
I submit with the utmost respect that that is a statement which no honourable man, be he king or otherwise, should be called upon to make; because if that

855
statement assumes anything it assumes that the person who makes this declaration of Protestantism is of a character so unreliable that he might do so insincerely, and with the intention of betraying these very doctrines and beliefs, which he declares himself profoundly attached to. I am glad to hear the Leader of the Opposition say that he and his Friends have long been anxious to remove this grievance. I remember in 1901, when his late Majesty made the statement, I put questions to the Leader of the Opposition— then the Prime Minister. While he disapproved of the old Declaration, his excuse for not moving in the matter, as the present Prime Minister has moved in the matter, was that as the Declaration had been made, and the necessity for it might not arise for a long time, there was no need to move in the matter. Therefore, it is satisfactory to know that the Leader of the Opposition—and I fully believe his followers and the House at large—will agree with the Bill, so that it may be introduced without a Division.
This change has been appealed for not merely by Catholics in Great Britain, not merely by Catholics in Ireland, but I would remind the House that it has been appealed for by people all over the Empire; by the Canadian Parliament, and by the people of Australia and other portions of His Majesty's Dominions. Therefore I make bold to say that we may confidently expect that all fair-minded men will rest satisfied with the statement that has been made, and will allow this Bill to be introduced without opposition. I have moved in this matter from the very time the statement was made by His late Majesty. I have introduced three Bills. I have questioned both sides of the House on the subject. I have always made it plain that the objection of Catholics in this matter was not merely to obtain a removal of the grievance, to obtain an act of justice for themselves—and in doing so they have the utmost respect and the best of goodwill towards their fellow citizens of all denominations—but their strong desire is that this alteration of the Royal Accession Declaration will not merely remove something which is unjust, but that it may greatly and inevitably tend to that better feeling between men of all religions in this country, which all fair-minded men earnestly desire.
Captain CRAIG: I think that the wishes of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat
856
down with regard to the First Reading of this Bill taking place without a Division will be disappointed. Some of us have made up our minds on this occasion to take the earliest possible opportunity of showing that we do not agree with the Prime Minister in his statement that it is safe to dispense with the Declaration which at present stands on the Statute Book. What I would have much preferred, and what some of my friends would have much preferred, would have been that the old constitutional attitude had been maintained by the Government. We say that just as each Member of this House, and of the other place, is obliged to take a Statutory Declaration or Oath at the Table before sharing the privilege of taking part in Debate and legislation, so the Crown should have also been obliged to fulfil a similar function, and take a Declaration also. After that the subject of altering its terms might have been approached. Under the Bill of Rights the Declaration is absolutely necessary had Parliament not been sitting at the time of the late King's death. But so far as one can judge the possibility of the continuance of Parliament was overlooked. Had Parliament had to be opened, or had the Coronation taken place—whichever was first—the Crown would have been obliged to take this statutory Declaration. Owing to the continuation of Parliament—that point having been overlooked—apparently it is possible for the Crown to give the Royal Assent to a measure having for its purpose the alteration of the Oath which, according to the practice of 200 years, it is necessary for the King to take. It would have been much wiser if the Prime Minister had carried out the old practice and allowed the Crown first of all to make the Declaration, then afterwards to have proceeded—if it was still desired—to make the alteration. It seems to me particularly inopportune now to bring forward this Bill. None of us, I am sure—I myself personally—have any desire whatever to deal with it in any other sense than the one affecting that of future Sovereigns, and not the present King. Nor shall I introduce the Crown more than necessary in the few words I desire to make in order to show the House and the country at large the reason which prompts some of us to object to this measure being introduced at the present time. It was only natural that some of the hon. Gentlemen of this House, living as they do in Great Britain, where they are in a vast

857
majority as Protestants, fail to see that this is only part of a great movement for the removal of what they call Roman Catholic disabilities. Those of us who live in Ireland, and who are brought closely in contact with that part of the United Kingdom which is predominantly Roman Catholic, are perhaps not to be blamed if we take a slightly different view from hon. Members who have twenty, thirty, or 100 Roman Catholics living in their Division. It all depends upon that. I would only mention some of the various measures which Roman Catholics have pressed upon various Governments to have altered as though they considered them a great grievance. We had first of all the Roman Catholic Disabilities Bill, and it was held at that time, as anyone who cares to read the speeches will find out, that that would have produced loyalty among the Roman Catholics in Ireland. That Bill was accepted, and yet here we are now agitating for the removal of grievances, or what are called grievances. Tithes in Ireland were abolished after many years of trouble, and no sooner was the ink dry upon these various measures passed for the amelioration of the lot of the Catholics, than immediately they produce another Bill. No sooner was the Disestablishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland carried into law than the question of university education was raised, and so on from one grievance to another. The moment one was removed another was brought forward, and as soon as this so-called grievance of the Roman Catholics is removed they will next demand that the Church of England Prayer Book must be changed also.
After all, the King is the defender of the Protestant faith, and as defender of the Protestant faith all we call upon him to do is to show sufficiently clearly that he himself believes in the doctrine of the Reformed Protestant Church. The whole point that arises is: how can we secure for all future time that the Protestant successor to the Throne will be such in reality? It was only by picking out some single doctrine and placing it in the Declaration that it was found possible in past times to do this effectively, and I hold it is as necessary to do the same to-day. If it is offensive I am afraid it cannot be helped. We are all offensive from time to time. It is necessary to be offensive sometimes, and if in this case the words of the Declaration are considered offensive, it cannot be helped, although reading the words
858
carefully ever it will be seen that no offence is intended, and should not be felt. If the Declaration is altered, and if this. Bill is passed, then the thirty-nine Articles, in consequence of the suggestion of the Prime Minister, must also be altered. Is it any more wrong on the part of the Crown to make the Declaration, which he does upon his Accession, than to make it as Defender of the Faith and Head of the Church, which he does when he has to-subscribe to it, as every other member of the Established Church has to do. I say no good reason has been made out by the-Prime Minister for altering the words. The Prime Minister says that times have changed, and that these words, framed 200 years ago, are out of date; that they suggest a time which is long passed, and' which everybody has forgotten. I do not wish to rake up anything from the past in regard to matters of this kind. I come to the present, and I ask the Prime-Minister and the House to bear in mind what occurred in very recent years. I take, first, a statement which appeared in the Press on the very day that the Prime Minister announced his intention of introducing this Bill. I quote from a newspaper:—
"Mr. Asquith informed the House of Commons yesterday afternoon that the Government proposes to bring in a Bill to modify the King's Declaration regarding the Roman Catholic Faith."
In a parallel column the following appears:—
"The Papal Nuncio yesterday handed to the Prime Minister of Spain a note from the Vatican protesting against the Royal decree authorising the use of outward symbols by the religious denominations not belonging to the Roman Catholic faith."
As we are all aware, the Queen of Spain, not very long ago, under the rules which governed her marriage to the King of Spain, had to take an oath, the terms of which I presume are familiar to every Member of the House of Commons. I would like to quote a few words of it in order to show that it is useless for the Prime Minister or anyone else to pretend for a moment that the words are the words of 200 years ago, and only reflect the-opinion of that time, and, therefore, unnecessary. Here is what the Queen of Spain was obliged to say in renouncing her Protestant faith. She said:—
"No one can be saved without that faith which the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church holds, believes and teaches, against which I grieve that I have greatly erred ‥ ‥ and everything else that has been defined and declared by the sacred canons and by the General Council, especially the Holy Council of Trent. ‥ ‥ With a sincere heart, therefore, and with unfeigned faith, I detest and abjure every error heresy and sect opposed to the said Catholic Apostolic and' Roman Church."

859
If the words of the Declaration necessary in our opinion to secure an undoubted Protestant succession to the Throne are harsh and somewhat offensive, as it is supposed they are, surely they are at all events no more offensive than the words I have just quoted. I hope the House will thoroughly understand that it is not any objection I have to any person holding whatever form of belief he desires which causes me to take such strong action on this point, but it is because the Church of Rome claims temporal power as well as spiritual power over people. If Rome would give up once and for all any claim For temporal power in the country then I would not hesitate for a moment to say that one of the greatest blessings would fall upon a country like Ireland where Rome's temporal sway is beyond measure.
Hon. Members from Ireland below the Gangway are anxious that this Bill of the Prime Minister's should be accepted. It is a triumph for them. A few years ago a Bill was introduced with the intention of taking out words from the Declaration which constitute the chief offence in their eyes. What happened to that Bill? The words objected to were: "superstitious and idolatrous." The Bill was introduced in the other House and the words "superstitious and idolatrous" were to be left out of the Declaration. What did the Roman Catholics of that day say? I cannot give the exact words, but their attitude was to the effect that they would not accept such an amendment, and they preferred that the Declaration should remain as they considered harsh, so that in some few years they would have an opportunity of perhaps appealing to the country to have it removed altogether. Now they accept this Bill. They say they are satisfied with it and I presume therefore a change has taken place. The late Lord Salisbury said he was in favour of striking out the words "superstitious and idolatrous," but so far as doing away with the Declaration was concerned the Government of that day would be no party to any such measure.
On the ground of the strong Protestant "feeling still in the country I shall oppose this Bill. I do not quarrel with the Prime Minister or desire to say anything more than that I speak for a very Protestant corner of Ulster, in which feeling on this, point is particularly high. I would not be fulfilling my duty as representative of this
860
people unless I took the earliest opportunity of saying I consider it a grave danger to tamper with words which kept the succession to the Throne Protestant for 200 years. What served us in the past would continue to serve us in the future. I cannot say what the Pope of Rome could do or what dispensations he is able to give to cover those who do certain services for their mother Church, but this I do know, that the phraseology of the Oath as it at present stands is such that no dispensation could be given to anyone who took it. It preserves the Protestant Succession under which we have thriven and prospered and extended our Empire to the extent to which the Prime Minister referred. This is an Empire to which Roman Catholics, when they are oppressed in their own countries, are proud to come and settle down in. They receive better treatment in this country than in France and other Catholic countries from which they have been driven by various schemes. Why do they come to England and settle down? Simply and solely because under a secure Protestant Constitution they find themselves able to work in peace and comfort and without any of the hardships that afflicted them in their own Roman Catholic countries. Recently we find uproar caused in Germany by the exercise of the temporal power of the Catholic Church in that country, and in Spain itself we also find troubles arising. I shall oppose this Bill at every stage.
We may be given the opportunity of further discussing this matter on Second Reading. I hold myself, personally, that in doing away with these particular words we are doing away with the whole Declaration. The Government are doing away with the Declaration which has been found to serve us so well in the past. I place no reliance on the new form outlined by the Prime Minister. I think it is extremely likely the Nationalist Members would be able to get this Bill carried through. I can only do my best in opposition to it, and a few of my Friends from Ulster will show they share the same feelings as I do. I cannot help thinking that this matter is one that has been sprung upon the House of Commons. I think it should have been submitted as part of the Government's programme to the country at a General Election. Certainly whatever other feature characterised the Government's programme at the last General Election, and for whatever other reforms they receive a mandate, they receive none from the alteration of the

861
King's Declaration. The people of the country should have been consulted, and should have been given an opportunity of saying, "yea" or "nay," whether they were willing to do away with any of the safeguards of the Constitution or not. I say, therefore, the time is inopportune, and I say that the Government should have consulted the country before taking such an important step, and I only hope that those Protestants in the House who have the Old Protestant feeling will not hesitate for a moment to join in opposition to this proposed change, and show that there is a large section of the people of the country still determined to stand by that which served them so well in the past.
5.0 P.M.
Sir CLIFFORD CORY: I have had numerous requests from my Constituents to oppose this Bill as earnestly as I can. I beg to protest against the introduction of this Bill, for one reason that, as the last speaker said, there has been no mandate whatever from the country to introduce it. We heard over and over again during recent Debates that the late Unionist Government had no mandate to pass the Licensing or Education Acts of 1902 and 1904, and yet the very Gentlemen who repeated that ad nauseam have brought in this Bill, for which they certainly cannot claim to have had any mandate. The Prime Minister seems to think only a very small number of people in this country will be opposed to this Bill, but I venture to submit to him he will find he is very much mistaken, and that there is a very large section of the community and, I believe, a majority of the electors of this country, who are opposed to it, and opposed to it very strongly. I believe also he will find that it will alienate a great many Liberals from the Liberal party. We know that at the last election the Liberals fared badly as it was, and at the next election, after the introduction of this Bill, they will fare very much worse. It is useless to say that without the Coronation Oath, the Bill of Eights and the Act of Settlement are sufficient as a Declaration. I think it would be easy to prove that they are quite insufficient to secure the constant succession to the Throne. I do not want to reiterate the arguments which we may have an opportunity of putting forward at the Second Reading, but I wish to protest as strongly as I possibly can against this Bill being introduced.
Mr. MOORE: I shall be obliged to go into the Division Lobby with my hon. Friend the Member for East Down, and other colleagues in the same part of the country we represent will do the same. I might perhaps be allowed to say that we should be opposed to the opinions of the people who sent us here if we neglected on this occasion, the first opportunity we have, to register our opinions in a manner adverse to a proposal which is so thoroughly and cordially detested in the part of the country from which we come. But I feel in a difficult position owing to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition that this measure should, at the present stage, be discussed without unduly entering into a controversy. I am bound to say that I feel the force of the Prime Minister's appeal very much less. I do not profess to be a follower of his, and I should have disregarded it, but it is more difficult so to treat the appeal of the Leader of the Opposition. I can only say that I take it the view is that we ought not now to discuss, before Second Beading, the particular terms of the alteration which is proposed. But that seems to me to beg the question as to whether or not there should be any alteration of any sort whatever. Our standpoint is this: That not only is there no mandate for this alteration, but that it is unnecessary at present. The people have not been consulted about it, and if they had been I believe the Protestant sense of the country is such that the proposal would be instantly rejected. So far as the Prime Minister is concerned, I would point out that while he professed in the loudest voice his Protestantism he has been careful to remove from his proposed Declaration every suggestion of protest on the part of a Protestant Sovereign, under the Protestant Constitution of a Protestant country. The name "Protestant" arose because we protested against the errors of Rome, and the one thing the proposed alteration does is to remove every element of protest against those doctrines, and yet the right hon. Gentleman strokes himself, metaphorically, and complacently says he is a better Protestant than many who sit in this House. I can understand for another reason the Prime Minister's desire to bring in this Bill. Liberal Ministers are never so happy as when attacking or tearing up or altering this ancient Constitution. This is one of the small fragments of a written constitution that we have. Our written Constitution is embodied in about three Acts of Parliament—or four at the

863
most. It is from the desire of all Liberal and Radical Governments to revise, reform, and alter the Constitution on lines which are always tinctured by advice given from below the Gangway that this suggestion has been brought forward now. And I can quite understand, from the experience of Liberal administration which we have had in Ireland under a Chief Secretary during the last four years, the extreme pleasure it has been to him to alter the Constitution in a manner which will promote the interests of the Roman Catholic Church in that country. He has endowed Roman Catholic education, he has permitted in State schools, which are supposed to be secular, Roman Catholic religious emblems; and it is part of the same thing that the Constitution is to be altered by a Liberal Government which professes to be the most Protestant country since the days of Cromwell. It gets Protestant votes in England, and in Ireland administers the law and alters the Statute Book entirely in the interests of the Roman Catholics. As to the suggested reason why this alteration is to be made, the first is that it was a very grievous and bitter insult the hon. Gentlemen who are members of the Roman Catholic Church. For the matter of that, I am sure if we poor heretics were to search the records of the Roman Catholic Church and chose to distress ourselves about them we should find much more horrible things about ourselves, but there is too much commonsense in us for that. I am sure that hon. Members below the Gangway have not spent an hour's sleeplessness over this Declaration any more than we Protestants have over all the bulls launched against this country from the days of Henry VIII. and of Elizabeth. The hon. Member for Clare did bring in a Bill in 1901, and we were told that this was the most vital grievance the Roman Catholics had. From 1901 until 1910 the hon. Member for East Clare and the others, who feel the matter so bitterly now, never attempted to bring it forward for discussion in this House.
Mr. W. REDMOND: There has been no opportunity.
Mr. MOORE: The party below the Gangway have had opportunity after opportunity for bringing forward Irish Bills, and they have done so. They had their Evicted Tenants Bill, their Land Bill, and their Roman Catholic University
864
Bill. They have brought forward every possible topic in preference to wiping out an insult, but they have allowed it to sleep for nine years. They now say they feel it very deeply. I think the best test of that is the political inaction of the hon. Members below the Gangway. I do not blame them when they get a squeezable Government trying to get what they can out of them. We would all do it, and I think credit is entirely due to them for getting this Bill now. They have a complacent Prime Minister, and they threaten him with fifty or sixty Nationalist votes. They say they want something to show the people at home for consenting to the Budget. Their programme is this, "We are going to go back to Ireland this year; we have a Budget putting millions of extra taxes on Ireland, but against that we have persuaded the Liberal party to wipe out this grievous insult from the King's Accession Declaration." I am not sure that the Prime Minister has wiped out the insult. He has left in the words "Reformed Church." I have been told that the title "Reformed Church" is in itself an insult. A. reformed church means a church which is an improvement upon its predecessor. I have no doubt that in a few years' time it will be discovered that it is an insult that Protestants should venture to call themselves a "reformed church." Then you have got to revive Article 31 of the Church Articles. The King has to subscribe to the Article. He has to be in communion with the Reformed Church of England, and the 31st Article says that these identical doctrines are blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits. I am quite sure the Front Bench opposite would not object to altering the constitution of the English Church if they gained a little Nationalist support. But there would be a good deal of feeling against them in the country. When the King has subscribed to the 31st Article, what is to be gained by taking this out of the Declaration? It is obviously an exhibition of party policy for the purpose of securing Nationalist support. Then we are told by the Prime Minister, who has professed his Protestantism, that times are changed, that nowadays there is greater toleration. I do not think there is a man in the House who would suggest, if we were drafting a new Bill, it should be drafted in the language of 200 years ago. But this is quite a different matter—this matter of altering a Bill which has been one of the safeguards of the country for the last 200 years, and which has been one of the

865
foundations of the Constitution, and which has done what it professed to do. It has safeguarded the Protestant Succession for us. The Prime Minister, when he said there was much more toleration now-a-days, hastened to avoid throwing any reflection upon our ancestors. Our ancestors were very wise and prudent, because it is evident from what happened that they adequately carried out their task. They did secure a Protestant succession. But have we got nowadays this toleration of which the Prime Minister spoke? I must confess, as I look abroad, I see more and more signs of the aggressive policy of the Church of Rome in every country, including our own. In Spain, for instance, Protestants who wish to worship there are not allowed to have a door into their place of worship which opens on a public street. They can only go in by a back door. With great toleration, the Roman Catholic King of Spain the other day issued an edict, subject to the approval of his Cabinet, that in future all religions were to be treated on an equality, and that Protestants, even in Spain, were to be allowed to walk into their own places of worship off the public streets. But what was the attitude of the head of the Church of Rome? He protested against this, and the protests are still going on. The Vatican said it was a breach of the Concordat between Spain and themselves, and the Vatican and the Cabinet of the Spanish Parliament are at present at arm's length because this ordinary privilege was proposed of allowing Protestants to enter their own places of worship by a front door. That is one of the instances of toleration on which the Prime Minister bases the necessity for the introduction of this Bill.
What is going on in Germany? The Vatican sent out a circular the other day in which Calvin, Luther, and the Reformers were denounced in the most unmeasured terms. It has raised a regular storm all over the Protestant States of Germany. I am not aware that the Vatican has either withdrawn it or apologised. It said it was intended merely for private circulation among the Christians. It does not seem to me that that is a sign of growing toleration. When one considers how mansion after mansion in this country have been taken by a regular invasion of foreign clerical refugees, this does not seem an opportune moment to revive this proposal. An hon. Member asked why the Roman Catholic Church was singled out to have its doctrine repudiated, and
866
why we should not take the tenets of any other religion, and deny them. Our history gives the answer to that. We have never had claimants to the Throne in this country except from one religion.
There is no greater political agency in the world than the religious community of the Roman Catholic Church. They think it their duty to interfere in politics to advance the temporal welfare of their Church. I speak from experience. I have been at election after election in Ireland, and have seen the parish priest bring up his congregation in squads, or in a body, to cast their votes solidly. I am not finding fault, but that is a political organisation. If it was not a political body, I do not believe our friends at home would so much resent this concession to them. We do not look at it as a concession to a religious body, but we do object to a concession to a political agency. The Church of Rome always uses its forces against us as a political agency much more than as a religious agency, and we say the time is inopportune for this alteration, and I regret it is being proposed by a party professing to be progressive. I shall support my hon. Friend in the Lobby, and I hope all those interested in the continuance of the Protestant succession will also do so.
Mr. AGAR-ROBARTES: I sincerely regret the action the Government have taken in raising what I can only describe as an entirely new issue—most complex and most controversial. Some of us on this side of the House were under the impression that the Government took up office to solve the dominant issue—the dispute between this House and another place. Therefore, I think they were fully aware that in pursuing this course they would be stirring up religious strife throughout the length and breadth of the land. The Protestant faith has a hold on' thousands of our fellow countrymen, as strong, as vivid, and as militant as any of the professions of the subjects of Rome, and they will look with jealous eyes on any attempt to tamper with this time-honoured Declaration. I oppose this proposed alteration because, in the first place, I think it is absolutely impossible to find a substitute for the existing Declaration which will secure the Protestant succession, while, at the same time, soothing what I can only describe as the hyper-sensitive feelings of Roman Catholicism, so sensitive, logical, and consistent with its peculiar partiality for civil and religious

867
liberty in other countries. We have before us the precedent of 1901, when the Government of the day tried to appease the Roman Catholic Peers, and Lord Salisbury introduced a Bill into the House of Lords That controversy showed it is not the words "superstitious and idolatrous" to which hon. Members opposite really object. What they desire to see is the abolition of the Declaration altogether, and I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill that the controversy will not cease even if he passes this Bill into law. Hon. Gentlemen opposite will, no doubt, declare, as they have declared in the past, that this is merely an instalment of a larger policy, and that they desire the abolition of the Declaration, altogether.
I was surprised to notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock (Mr. Luttrell), speaking the other day on the Second Reading of the Regency Bill, with a rich vein of humour I had hardly credited him with before, advocated, because he believes in no tests for teachers, that there should be no tests for Regents. I think my hon. Friend will find that the acute minds of his Devonshire constituents will probably think it is absolutely necessary we should have this religious test for the King. Once having secured an effective test which is acknowledged to be effective it seems to me to be a mistake to introduce a Bill which will have the same object in view, but which will not and cannot afford the same protection to the Protestant Succession. After all, security is demanded by the vast majority of our fellow-countrymen on political as well as on religious grounds. The people of this country are determined to govern themselves, and in saying that I think I echo the sentiments of most hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House. They will not accept any interference from any outside Power. The Roman Catholic body, after all, acknowledges an outside influence, and declares its allegiance to a supreme Power outside. Therefore it appears to me to be essential that the Sovereign, holding the position he does, and using the influence which he finds it necessary to use, should give a definite denial to the most important doctrines of the Roman Catholic body. I frankly admit that this Declaration might be improved; it might be improved by strengthening it with a denial of the supremacy and infallibility of the Pope, but I am particularly anxious not to stir up religious strife. All I wish
868
to say is that the status quo should be maintained. Personally, I would suggest to hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway opposite that they should not go to a Division at this stage, because if we do go to a Division at this stage it would be no index to the feeling throughout the country. Some hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, although they do not wish to see the Declaration altered or tampered with, will no doubt follow the advice of the Prime Minister, which has by this time become classical, and "wait and see" the Bill in print.
Mr. BELLOC: After what has fallen from the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, I fully recognise that the prolongation of the discussion may be inconvenient, but what has been said gives me a right to say what I have to say. I must first of all apologise for speaking, as I do, as a Catholic. No one of the English Members who happens to be a Catholic represents a Catholic constituency, and anyone who emphasises his religion tends, and perhaps naturally tends, to offend, or, at any rate, to con fuse the issues within, that constituency. There are very few of us, I think altogether there are only four, and each of us sits for a constituency necessarily with a big majority of Protestants, but I desire to remind the House, as in the old Debates on the Education Bill some years ago, that unless a Member who happens to be a Catholic, though sitting for a Protestant constituency, can voice Catholic opinion in these matters, that opinion will be dumb and not represented at all. I think I may say with respect to the House that, when I speak on these religious matters, I do represent one very large section of opinion, namely, the Catholics in South Lancashire. If we had proportional representation in this country, one quarter of the representatives of industrial South Lancashire would be Catholics, and, if they were, the effect on the House would, I think, be very different from that which it is when one or two Catholic Members rise.
It is in the nature of Protestant opinion and Protestant training and Protestant ethics to think that the change of words is very important, but I do not think that any of us of the community of Catholics regard the question of language as being of supreme importance. The language is offensive, it is old-fashioned, it is violent, but that is not the point we regard; and the more we travel, the more we read, and the more we know of men, the more we are convinced of this. We regard Europe

869
as divided into two camps. There is that ancient tradition, that concrete form of the old civilisation which we call The Faith, and there are the opponents of The Faith. That is the line of cleavage in Europe. Were you to abolish all forms of Declaration whatsoever, and were you to make it as it is in modern Persia, and I think in every German State, a punishable offence to insist upon religious differences, it would still be true that it would remain the great line of cleavage in modern Europe. I think the future, possibly the near future, but more likely the remote future, will prove that that type of analysis is just, and that the great division between modern men of Europe is those who are with, and those who are against the Catholic Church. On that account I sympathise with their point' of view and the opposition which is being made against this proposal.
Although the change of words does not seem to me a matter of very considerable importance, there are points of view from which this proposal is important. The first was very well emphasised by the Leader of the Opposition when he pointed out that the Crown is in a peculiar position in the Empire. It is but an historical accident that this House and the House of Lords in this Island have to decide upon a matter of this sort. It would be more logical and just and more representative if all parts of the Empire were to concur in such a decision. You are deciding with regard to an office that is one link, and the only link, between the various parts of a highly heterogeneous community. But within the white subjects of that community there is no doubt that the Catholic Church, with its political, temporal, economic, and social forces, represents a totally different proportion to what it does in England. It is true that in England our community is a small one. It has been persecuted in the past. It is not growing, or, rather, it is not growing rapidly. But it is not so in Canada, Australia, and other parts of the Empire; and if you have self-government in those other portions of the Empire, with an Imperial Parliament representing those various parts, then the protest against this present form of Declaration would be voiced in a very different way to that in which it is done to-day.
The second point, and it is one of importance, is this: Are you so sure that the mass of opinion, even in England today, is of that anti-Catholic type which many speakers have represented it to be?
870
Let us remember that this House is composed in the main part of well-to-do men and for the rest of what are generally called the middle-classes. I admit that the middle-classes of our society are anti-Catholic, and that among them the Protestant feeling is strong; but I ask the House to consider whether it is true of our present society in our great industrial towns and of our masses of casual labourers that the anti-Catholic feeling exists to that extent? Are hon. Members representative when they speak in the terms of at least two generations ago. I must confess that in all great bodies of working men I have mixed with, or heard, or had the honour of addressing, I have not found that the old religious passions were the things chiefly alive among them. I have found in my own community, largely on account of the Irish admixture, the religious feeling was intensely strong, but that matters, economic and social, carried far greater weight and, if I may say so with respect, it seems necessarily on account of the constitution of this House, a body of men coming on the whole not from the popular classes, that they have their quarrels rather exaggerated. We saw that in the Education Bill Debates, and we are seeing it in this Debate to-day.
There is just one third principle I want to deal with, and I have a certain hesitation in bringing it forward, because to-day so few men hold it—I mean the principle of Liberalism. If you are a Tory, and adhere to the philosophy which once gave that word a certain meaning; if you desire to adhere to the old traditions of State; if you consider the State rather in its historical aspect than in its present aspect; if you are contemptuous of certain individual rights and of what we, as democrats, believe to be the rights of majorities, then you can logically say that England is a Protestant country with its Established Church and its historic traditions. But the position of Conservatives maintaining the old barriers, even against the instinctive religious claim of the Crown, you cannot, if you are a Liberal, uphold—I do not know whether the House will believe me or not; it is rather a personal point; but those who did me the honour to hear me speak on the first Education Bill will, I think, admit, and it is equally true of those who agreed and voted with me—that I did not commit myself to any other principle in those Debates than what used to be the democratic principle that no citizen and no official of the State must be troubled with

871
regard to his religion or philosophic opinions. That used to be with our forefathers a commonplace. I do not believe there was a leading man in the generation of great English Liberals, from the time of the Reform Bill down to the death of Mr. Gladstone, who would not, in principle, have endorsed what lies behind this proposal. You have no right, according to that doctrine—a doctrine no longer popular and held by only a few eccentrics —the doctrine of Liberalism—you have no right to impose religious tests upon any member of the community whatsoever. I confess that a paradoxical love of that doctrine, on that ground more than any other, will make me vote in favour of the proposal of the Prime Minister, which does impose a religious test, although somewhat modified.
Mr. PRIMROSE: In considering this enormous change which the Government propose to bring about—a change which I think far exceeds the expectations Members had previously to to-day entertained—we should remember one or two things. We should remember in the first place that Mr. Gladstone said that this Declaration was necessary as a corollary of the Coronation Oath. I hope sincerely I shall not be accused of intolerance when I say I am going to oppose this change as far as I can. The Prime Minister, in the course of his most interesting speech, told us that the Sovereign was the only person who made the Declaration, but from a letter I saw in "The Times," which I should not like to pit against the Prime Minister's knowledge, I gather that all the bishops are required to make it, and, perhaps, it is not very much therefore to ask that the King should make it in his position as Head of the English Church. What people who oppose this Declaration want is a change in it, and not its abolition, but in the substitute proposed for it there is nothing new to what is already contained in the Coronation Oath. The Prime Minister said that when it was framed it was not intended that the Sovereign should take it, but from eleven years after it had been constructed it has been found necessary that the Sovereign should take it. I think it would be a great pity if we now abolished it and thus removed one of the safeguards of our Protestant Succession. The Member who has just sat down read us a lecture on religious toleration. I have not been
872
privileged to read his books, but I am told that, in one of them, he has written in a style of some hostility against a race with which I am very proud to be connected. I should have hardly thought he was a man to lecture on religious toleration. I can only imagine, when my ancestors were compelled to follow the occupation of making bricks without straw, his ancestors were of those who imposed on them that uncongenial and laborious task. I thank the House very much for the attention with which it has listened to me, and I hope it will regard with jealous care this attempted interference with one of our national possessions.
Mr. MORTON: I am entirely opposed to any change in this Declaration. I should like to say, with regard to this proposal to bring in a Bill which will prove highly contentious, not only in this House, but in the country at large, that there are many reforms, especially in Scotland, which are wanted much more than any interference with this Declaration, and if time is to be found for anything, it should be provided for those reforms. My hon. Friend the Member for East Clare told us something about the strong language used in the Declaration, but I gather that, according to the professions of his faith, there is no hope of salvation for us, and no chance of our getting into Heaven on any terms whatsoever. The Roman Catholics, I believe, do not care a rap about the words; to which the hon. Member referred. What they want is to go on getting possession of things bit by bit, until they finally capture the lot. I suppose they want to have the temporal power of the Pope reintroduced into Ireland. I should like to know, if the Pope became head of the temporal power in Ireland, how much Home Rule would be given? What we have to bear in mind is that Protestantism has made this country what it is. It is Protestantism that has given us civil and religious liberty, and without religious liberty you cannot have civil liberty. I do hope, therefore, that we shall bear in mind that in this country we are indebted to Protestantism for our liberties. Of course, we shall have further opportunities of considering this question, and the people of the country will also be able to consider it as soon as the Bill has been printed. I regret that the Prime Minister has not left the question alone—that he has not left it to settle itself, because, undoubtedly, the idea will get abroad that the Government is in favour of intervening

873
against the Protestant religion simply to please the Roman Catholics. I have always been on fairly good terms with Roman Catholics. I have lived with them and have not come to any harm, and I have tried to induce the North of Ireland to act fairly towards them in every way, always subject to the Conscience Clause, and with no interference on the part of Roman Catholics. I shall consider it my duty to vote against this Bill on all occasions, and I do it with great pleasure as a Protestant.
Sir J. COMPTON-RICKETT: I only desire to say a word or two on this occasion since we are only now at the outset of the Bill, and there will have to be considerable further discussion upon it. I want to say how glad I am that the Government at last are doing justice in this matter, for no manner of conditions of this kind imposed upon the Sovereign would really secure the end in view. In the first place the differences of opinion now affecting people in regard to religion are far different and on different grounds to those of 200 years ago, and the words which we have placed in the Declaration of the King really do not now exist as words affecting the Churches themselves. Moreover, to bind the Sovereign to make a Declaration of this kind is really not to protect him from influences outside the Protestant Church, because inside the Protestant Church of England itself we have opinions which cannot be distinguished from those referred to in the Declaration. We have also to remember that the Sovereign stands for the whole of the country, and that Catholics are emancipated, and have their rights as citizens. I am in hopes of seeing a change in the condition of the Catholic mind as we have seen a change in America, and that that great historic Church is not to remain under the control of a group of priests in Italy for ever, and that we shall see a development and a liberalising effect in that Church so that it will take its place among the Churches of Christendom and be an assistance, instead of a drawback, to the Protestant Churches, and join with them to fight the battle against the new foes, which are materialism and indifference. They need to-day the help of Catholics to fight those foes, and not their hostility, and we have seen signs in America, as I have said, of independence of thought in the Catholic Church. There are also signs of that in England, and it is possible for that great Church to take
874
on a new life, as I have said, and to play a part in the Empire of Britain as well as in the rest of the world of great importance in the future. I feel that in this case and as a basis of the State we are bound to give equality of civil rights. We shall not be able to secure the thought of the Sovereign; we can only protect ourselves against his actions, and this can be secured by contract and by Acts of Parliament instead of by declarations of an offensive character.
Mr. CHARLES CRAIG: I have listened very carefully indeed to the speech which has been delivered by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and at the end of it I am unable to understand whether the hon. Member would allow a Roman Catholic to occupy the Throne of this country. The whole tenour of his remarks pointed to indifference on his part whether the Throne was occupied by a Roman Catholic or by a Protestant. If that is the point of view which he takes up I think I may say that the House of Commons may for the present, at any rate, disregard it entirely. I believe that the vast majority of the inhabitants of these-islands are as firmly determined to-day as they have been for the last 200 years that the Throne of this country must -be occupied solely and alone by Protestants, and it is from that point of view we must address ourselves to the question to-day. If that is so, and I think everybody admits that it is, and if we are to continue the Protestant Succession in this country, the question we have to discuss is whether the methods by which we procure that Succession are adequate, or whether, as is put forward by some hon. Members, many of those methods are superfluous and go too far. Those of us who are determined to vote against this Bill to-day think that if you mean to provide for a Protestant succession in this country you cannot take any means which are too strong for carrying out the purpose you have in view, and we maintain that the Declaration which we are discussing, if it is examined word for word by experts, will be found—as experts, of whom I do not profess to be one, have on more than one occasion declared—to be the only form of words which Roman Catholics themselves and Protestants themselves have been able to devise which in the ultimate result will have that effect. That is to say, there are circumstances, there are conditions which I am willing to admit do not exist at the moment, but

875
which did exist 200 years ago and may exist 250 years hence—there are circumstances which have existed, and might exist again, which can only be met by retaining the declaration in its present form.
I admit that this is not the time to give details at any length, but we all know that the words which are claimed by the Roman Catholics to be offensive to them were put into that Declaration for the express purpose of testing to the utmost the religious belief of the monarch who had to make the Declaration, and we are informed—again I say I am not an expert who put this forward as my own opinion— but we are informed by those who know much better than I do that without these words it would be possible—I do not say for an honourable and honest Roman Catholic—but it would be possible for a Roman Catholic to make the Declaration proposed by the Prime Minister. Let me put it this way, that a Roman Catholic could make the Declaration which is now in existence provided you struck out those few words which the Roman Catholic Church claim to be offensive to their creed. I must confess, as hon. Members have said before me, I do not place much reliance upon the statements of Roman Catholics that they are grievously hurt in their consciences by the employment of those words. They say it is natural for this country, where we are Protestants, to insist upon having a Protestant Sovereign, and if that is so, and that Sovereign has to make a declaration of faith proving that he is a Protestant, I do not think that anyone can complain that one of the central doctrines of the Roman Catholic faith is taken, and that he is asked to say that that doctrine is wrong. That is all that it comes to—that he is asked to say that a certain part of the Roman Catholic religion is idolatrous. I do not see that if they once admit that we are entitled to maintain the Protestant Succession to the Throne that they have any reason to complain. The hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Belloc) admitted as a Roman Catholic that he himself did not take any great exception to these particular words, and I believe in that respect he voiced the opinion of the members of that Church a great deal more than hon. Members below the Gangway. They make no secret of the matter that they object to the whole Declaration. That was proved nine or ten years ago when this matter was before another place. It was proposed then to remove these so-
876
called offensive words, but the Roman Catholic Peers refused to accept the substitute for them on the ground that they would rather stick to the present Declaration and use it as a lever at some future time to have the Declaration done away with altogether. That is the position of the Roman Catholics as voiced by their representatives in that House, but we, on the other hand, say—at least, my Friends and myself, such as are going to oppose this Bill to-day, take up the position that here you have a Declaration which hurts nobody and by the consent of everybody does all it was intended to do in safeguarding the Protestant Succession in this country. And we say it would be folly to interfere with it, because we have no guarantee—at all events, no guarantee founded on experience—that any other Declaration or the Declaration proposed by the Prime Minister will have the same effect as that which this Declaration, which has been in use for 200 years past, will have.
Mr. O'GRADY: I regret that this discussion has degenerated into a religious squabble, but what we are discussing is whether or not the religious Declaration which the Sovereign takes is to be changed. I want to emphasise what the hon. Member for Salford said, that among the hard-working classes of the population there is no anti-Catholic feeling at all existing, and I think I should say that it is true of this community generally that there is no one who takes any interest in this discussion except those to whom these words are offensive. I want to draw attention to the fact also that the Prime Minister in his speech outlined the idea that there were certain legal safeguards which insured the Protestant Succession, and surely that is all that is necessary. I do not think there is any need for the Declaration at all, except to meet the susceptibilities of our Protestant fellow subjects, and I think the Roman Catholics would accept the Declaration which the Prime Minister outlined. I give credit to the hon. Member when he says he believes that this is in no way offensive to the Catholics of this country, but I repeat that as it stands at the present moment it is not only offensive but insulting. It has been stated in this House that probably the most loyal subjects of the Crown are the Roman Catholics throughout the Empire, and everyone will agree they are faithful and loyal subjects, and to insist upon a form of Declaration of that character, which has absolutely no authority in

877
law, is an anachronism—an obsolete form which the Sovereign has to go through which is absolutely of no use. I think, in these days, even if a strong religious feeling does exist, we are prepared to tolerate one another's religious convictions, and that the time has come when these words can be wiped away from the Constitution, if they are part of it. I trust that this Bill will be given a unanimous reception, and I was going to ask my Friends who have spoken strongly against it to abstain from voting upon this occasion. I am sure their Catholic fellow subjects would feel that that was an act of grace on their part, because, after all, all the points that have been raised can be discussed upon the Second Reading of this measure, and, like the Prime Minister, I think the more our Protestant fellow subjects look at the Bill the more they will find that everything they want in regard to the Protestant Succession will be absolutely assured, and I am convinced that there will be a strong body of even Protestant opinion in favour of this Bill when it comes before the House for Second Reading.
6.0 P.M.
Major ARCHER-SHEE: I should not have intervened but for the fact that I am one of the few Catholic Members for an English constituency, and I wish-to say a word or two to justify the vote which I shall give. To my mind it is not a question of whether the Catholic Church describes the members of the Church of England as heretics, or whether the Church of England retorts in the Thirty-nine Articles—I think the 22nd and 31st— in very offensive language to the Catholics. It is whether the Sovereign of this United Kingdom, who is also the Sovereign of the Dominions beyond the seas, and at the same time Emperor of India, shall take an oath which is and has been declared to be offensive to 12 millions of the inhabitants of the British Empire. It seems to me that there can be no excuse for the continuance of that Declaration. On another ground I should object to it, because it is an absurdity and an anachronism. The hon. Member (Mr. William Moore) said he approved of the wisdom of our ancestors who framed this Declaration to meet a certain case 221 years ago. But if it were right that we should stick to the same language that they used then surely it would be almost as reasonable to stick to the Declaration of Rebellion, which the same men who were the authors of this
878
Declaration framed in the year 1688. To show the absurdity of such language I should like to read one Article from the Declaration of Rebellion, which declared that the King had erred:—
"By forbidding the subjects the benefit of petitioning and construing the libellers; so rendering the laws a nose of wax, to serve their arbitrary ends."
The fact that that language was used by the same men who framed this Declaration shows that their language was not applicable to the present day. In addition to that, nine years ago the Canadian House of Commons passed a Resolution by 125 votes to 10 protesting against this Declaration. The Australians have also taken a strong part, and we cannot only consider the people of this country, we must consider the citizens of the British Empire as well. Therefore, I shall have the greatest pleasure in recording my vote for this Bill, not only as a Catholic, but also as a Member representing an English Constituency.
Mr. JOHN ELLIS: I only rise to express my thanks to the Government for having brought forward this Bill. To my mind this is a simple act of justice to Roman. Catholic subjects. I do not enter upon the merits this afternoon. I do not understand that we are on the merits at all. We have had a most interesting contribution from the hon. Member (Mr. Belloc), who raised many points, and we listened with great pleasure to the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Primrose). There was only one point in his speech to which I should take some exception. I am not quite sure that he was entitled to invoke the name of Mr. Gladstone as a supporter of the Declaration. However that may be, I am quite satisfied that those who listened to Mr. Gladstone, either on that great speech he made on the Affirmation, or when he was moving the Bill when we were in Opposition to relieve the Lord Chancellor and the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, the two officers on whom the disabilities still attaches, from that disability, would be persuaded that if Mr. Gladstone were present to-day he would join with us in some alteration of the Declaration. Governments are often timid —we have often seen timid Governments— and they are often persuaded according to the advice of Lord Melbourne—good advice in some circumstances—to leave the matter alone. I am very glad they have resisted that temptation on this occasion, and I hope they will press the Bill on, and. that it will become law by a commanding, majority.
Mr. H. K. NEWTON: I desire to offer one observation because I am in some little difficulty. I understand that a Division is to be taken, and before voting—and I shall vote in favour of the Bill—I desire to submit to the House this consideration. I have, during the past month or two, made many inquiries among people in many districts of East Anglia, with a view to ascertaining what their views were, and I have found a very general desire that some change should be made in the form of the Royal Declaration. The trouble I am in arises from this: that the change foreshadowed in the Prime Minister's speech seems to go very much further than anyone in the country anticipated would be the case. Under these circumstances, though I shall vote for the Bill, I do so on the understanding that the Prime Minister gave, that we shall have ample opportunities of considering the effect of the Bill upon the Second Reading. The Prime Minister stated—and that is the reason why I am supporting it—that his form secures the Protestant Succession in this country, and I earnestly hope that at a later stage we shall have facts put before us which will prove to demonstration that the Protestant Succession will be amply secured under the new form of words. It is because I have felt this difficulty and the greatness of the change introduced that I have made this one observation.
Mr. F. W. VERNEY: I desire not to give a silent vote on this occasion. It is my belief that Protestantism has enormously increased in strength in the last 200 years in this country, and so strong is it to-day that it can perfectly safely accept the Bill of the Government.
Mr. GEORGE HARWOOD: I only want to say one word to my Friends on this side of the House who seem to suggest that the Government has brought in this Bill though they had no mandate I want to remind them that there is a mandate of circumstances which could not have been anticipated and that the Government has to face these new circumstances and it is perfectly justified in facing them with this new suggestion. I do not think it is right that it should go forward that they are bringing forward a Bill without a mandate. We have had a new King who will shortly have to take the Coronation Oath and the Government is perfectly justified in providing for that change and I appeal to them, whether it is not at any rate unfair to suggest that the Government is not justified in bringing in the Bill.
Question put: "That leave be given to bring in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 383; Noes, 42.

Division No. 82.]

AYES.

[6.10 p.m.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

Cator, John

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Bentham, George Jackson

Cautley, Henry Strother

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.

Beresford, Lord Charles

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Addlson, Dr. Christopher

Bird, Alfred

Cawley, H. T. (Lanes. Heywood)

Agnew, George William

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Boland, John Plus

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Alden, Percy

Bowerman, Charles W.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r)

Allen, Charles Peter

Bowles, Thomas Gibson

Chancellor, Henry George

Arbuthnot, G. A.

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, N.)

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Archer-Shee, Major Martin

Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Brace, William

Clancy, John Joseph

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Clough, William

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brassey, H. L. C. (Northants, N.)

Colefax, H. A.

Asqulth, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Brassey, Capt. R. (Oxon, Banbury)

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Bagot, Captain J.

Bridgeman, William Clive

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

Baird, John Lawrence

Brigg, Sir John

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

Brunner, John F. L.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Bryce, J. Annan

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Balcarres, Lord

Bull, Sir William James

Courthope, George Loyd

Baldwin, Stanley

Burke, E. Haviland-

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Craik, Sir Henry

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Butcher, John George (York)

Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor

Buxton, C. R. (Devon, Mid)

Crosfield, Arthur H.

Barnston, Harry

Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

Crossley, Sir William J.

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

Byles, William Pollard

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

Calley, Col. Thomas C. P.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Cameron, Robert

Dawes, James Arthur

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc. E.)

Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Campion, W. R.

Devlin, Joseph

Beale, William Phipson

Carlile, Edward Hlldred

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness)

Beckett, Hon. William Gervase

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dickinson, W. H.

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Dillon, John

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Donelan, Captain A.

Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Doris, William

Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Pearce, William

Duffy, William J.

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A.

Duke, Henry Edward

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Peel, Hon. William R. W. (Taunton)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Jowett, Frederick William

Perkins, Walter Frank

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Joyce, Michael

Peto, Basil Edward

Dunn, Sir W. H. (Southward, W.)

Keating, Matthew

Philipps, Sir o. C. (Pembroke)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Kelly, Edward

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Pointer, Joseph

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Kerry, Earl of

Pollard, Sir George H.

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Kilbride, Denis

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Falconer, James

King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Falle, Bertram Godfray

Kirkwood, John H. M.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Farrell, James Patrick

Knott, James

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Fell, Arthur

Lambert, George

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Fenwick, Charles

Lardncr, James Carrige Rushe

Proby, Col. Douglas James

Ferens, Thomas Robinson

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Munro

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Rankin, Sir James

Ffrench, Peter

Leach, Charles

Raphael, Herbert Henry

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Lee, Arthur Hamilton

Reddy, Michael

Fleming, Valentia

Lehmann, Rudolf C.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Fletcher, John Samuel

Levy, Sir Maurice

Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

Foster, John K. (Coventry)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rees, Sir J. D.

Foster, p. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

Lewisham, Viscount

Rendall, Athelstan

France, Gerald Ashburner

Llewelyn, Venables

Ridley, Samuel Forde

Gardner, Ernest

Lloyd, George Ambrose

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Gelder, Sir W. A.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Gill, A. H.

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

Gilmour, Captain John

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Glanville, Harold James

Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

Glover, Thomas

Lundon, Thomas

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Goldman, Charles Sydney

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Gooch, Henry Cubitt

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Wor. Droitwlch)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Greene, Walter Raymond

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Greenwood, Granville George

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Greig, Col. James William

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Guiney, Patrick

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Sanderson, Lancelot

Gulland, John William

M'Kean, John

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Hackett, John

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Scanlan, Thomas

Haddock, George Bahr

M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lines. Spalding)

Schwann, Sir Charles E.

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Mallet, Charles Edward

Shackleton, David James

Hardie, J. Keir

Manfield, Harry

Sheehy, David

Harris, F. L. (Tower Hamlets, Stepney)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Sherwell, Arthur James

Harris, H. P. (Paddington, S.)

Martin, Joseph

Shortt, Edward

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mason, James F.

Smith, H. B. (Northampton)

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Harwood, George

Median. Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

Soares, Ernest Joseph

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Menzies, Sir Walter

Spicer, Sir Albert

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Middlebrook, William

Stanier, Beville

Haworth, Arthur A.

Middlemore, J. T.

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Hazleton, Richard

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Starkey, John Ralph

Healy, Maurice (Cork, N.E.)

Millar, James Duncan

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Healy, Timothy Michael (Louth, N.)

Mond, Sir Alfred

Stewart, Sir M'T. (Kirkc'dbr'tsh.)

Heath, Col. Arthur Howard

Mooney, John J.

Summers, James Woolley

Heaton, John Henniker

Morpeth, Viscount

Sutherland, John E.

Hemmerde. Edward George

Mount, William Arthur

Sutton, John E.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Muldoon, John

Sykes, Alan John

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Henry, Charles S.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

Newman, John R. P.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

Nield, Herbert

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter

Nolan, Joseph

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

Hindle, Frederick George

Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Hodge, John

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Hogan, Michael

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Holt, Richard Durning

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

O'Doherty, Philip

Toulmin, George

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

O'Dowd, John

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

O'Grady, James

Twist, Henry

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

Verney, Frederick William

Hudson, Walter

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

O'Malley, William

Walters, John Tudor

Hume-Williams, William Ellis

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Walton, Sir Joseph

Hunt, Rowland

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

Hunter, W. (Govan)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Illingworth, Percy H.

O'Shee, James John

Wardle, George J.

882

883

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Whlttaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Yerburgh, Robert

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Whyte, Alexander F.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

Wateriow, David Sydney

Williams, Penny (Middlesbrough)

Young, William (Perth, East)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Younger, W. (Peebles and Selkirk)

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

White, Maj. G. D. (Lanc. Southport)

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Sir J. M. Fuller.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Wilson, T. F. (Lanark, N.E.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Wood, T. M'Klnnon (Glasgow)

NOES.

Adam, Maior William A.

Harmsworth, R. L.

Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Rutherford, Watson

Barlow, Sir John Emmott

Homer, Andrew Long

Sandys, Lt.-Col. T. M. (Bootle)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Houston, Robert P.

Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

Black, Arthur W.

Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)

Brackenbury, Henry Langton

Locker-Lampson, 0. (Ramsay)

Tryon, Capt. George Clement

Brunskill, G.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Valentia, Viscount

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Wadsworth, John

Chambers, James

Mackinder, Halford J.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Macmaster, Donald

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Gordon, J.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Hall, E. Marshall (Toxteth)

Moore, William

Hamersley, Alfred St. George

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain Craig and Sir C. J. Cory.

Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

Primrose, Hon. Neil James

Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought m by the Prime Minister, Mr. Birrell, Mr. Runciman, and the Solicitor-General. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
CLAUSE 1 agreed to.

CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Enumerators and their Duties.)
  (1) Such officers and men of the police force of Dublin metropolis and of the Royal Irish Constabulary as the Lord Lieutenant may direct, together with such other persons as the Lord Lieutenant may appoint to assist therein, shall act as and be enumerators for the purposes of this Act.
  (2) Every enumerator shall, upon the Monday following the Census day, and such one or more next consecutive days as the Lord Lieutenant may fix, visit every house within the district assigned to him between the hours of half-past eight in the forenoon and six in the afternoon, and take an account in writing, according to such instructions as may be given to him by the Chief or Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, of the number of persons who abode therein on the night of the Census day, and of the sex, age, religious profession, birthplace, and occupation of all such persons.
  (3) Every enumerator shall take an account of the number of inhabited houses and of uninhabited houses and of houses then building within his district and of the number of rooms occupied by any occupier who is in occupation of less than five rooms; and shall also furnish such particulars as may be directed as to the counties, boroughs, towns, districts, and other areas for electoral or administrative purposes in which the houses are situate.
  (4) The enumerators shall also take an account of all such further particulars as they may be directed to inquire into by such instructions as are authorised to be issued under this Act.
  (5) Every enumerator may ask all such questions of all persons within his district respecting themselves or the persons constituting their respective families, and respecting such further particulars, as may be necessary for the purpose of taking the said accounts.
  Mr. SCANLAN: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "Such officers and men of the police force of Dublin metropolis and of the Royal Irish Constabulary as the Lord Lieutenant may direct, together with such other persons as the Lord Lieutenant may appoint to assist therein," and to insert instead thereof the words "Officials to be appointed by the county councils for the several districts under their respective jurisdictions, and by the local authority of each borough and urban district which is without the jurisdiction of a county council."

  885
  The Sub-section, as it stands, directs, in regard to enumerators, that they shall be members of the police force of Dublin metropolis and of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and it will be seen at once that my reason for moving the Amendment is the objection which is felt in Ireland to having the Census taken by these officers. The reason is that the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary are criminal officers, and that the nature of their ordinary duties does not permit the people to whom they have to go to make inquiries for the purposes of the Census to treat them as the enumerators who are appointed for similar purposes are naturally treated in England and Scotland. May I direct the attention of the Committee to a similar Clause in the Census (Great Britain) Bill, which has not yet passed through all its stages? Subsection (2) of Clause 3 says: "Overseers and assistant-overseers of the poor, relieving officers for Poor Law unions, and collectors of the poor rate shall, if so required by the Local Government Board, act as and be enumerators for the purposes of this Act." There is every difference in the world in having investigations of this kind made by Civil servants of the Crown and by a body of criminal or quasi-criminal officers like the Royal Irish Constabulary. During the discussion of the Census Bill for Great Britain I was greatly impressed by the insistence with which the hon. Baronet, the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) and others pleaded for the protection of the people against officious inquiries by the Census officers. What would be said by the hon. Baronet and his friends if these inquiries were to be made by police officers? The police force being charged with the duty of protecting the country against criminals, are eminently un-suited for making inquiries which belong to the department of Civil administration in this country, and which ought to be treated in the same way in Ireland. The police force would be a most unsuitable body in England and Scotland, and I am sure the hon. Baronet and his friends would object to that force being detailed for such duty.
  I shall give the House an instance of the unpopularity of the police in England and Scotland for matters of this kind. Before the establishment of the Labour Bureaux there were distress committees in the various large centres of England and Scotland, and the work of these committees
  886
  broke down largely because the investigations were entrusted to the members of the police force. But in Ireland the police force is immeasurably more unpopular than in this country, because it represents a foreign garrison in that country. For these reasons, I think I am justified in moving this Amendment. In the Irish Bill it is provided that, besides the police, the enumerators are to be such other persons as the Lord Lieutenant may direct. I think the Lord Lieutenant is not the proper person to appoint enumerators. It may be said that the Lord-Lieutenant, in this particular matter, will act through the Chief Secretary. It is true, in my opinion, that the present Chief Secretary is one of the most popular, or probably the most popular, we have ever had in Ireland since the Union, but even if the appointments are made through him, that will not make the members of the police more acceptable as enumerators. It may be urged against this Amendment that the police force in Ireland are well qualified because they have made these investigations for the purposes of the Census in the past. Well, the only evidence we have had in the House for some time as to the accuracy of the Census Returns is the evidence disclosed in the discussions oh claims for old age pensions, and it is notorious that these Returns in Ireland have been very badly prepared. The fact that they have been badly prepared is, to my mind, an argument why the duties of enumeration should be transferred from the police force. I have frequently heard in this House and read in the reports of discussions in the House of Lords tributes to the manner in which the county councils in Ireland discharge their duties, and I think a matter of this kind, which evidently belongs to the local administration, can very well be entrusted to the local authority in that country.
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): If we were now considering for the first time the question of the Census in Ireland or in any other country I should quite agree that there are many objections which might be made with great force against the employment of police for the business of enumeration. But we are not dealing with it for the first time, and the Committee should bear in mind that the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police have carried out this duty since 1841. They

  887
  have, therefore, done it, and in 1890 a Committee was appointed by the Treasury to consider the way in which the Census was being carried out in all parts of these Islands, and the Committee, while finding great fault with the manner in which the enumeration was carried out, singled out Ireland for special commendation and said it was uncommonly well done, and proceeded to say—I presume they took some evidence on the subject of the constabulary being used for purely civil work —that they found that practically no obstruction whatever was caused. I therefore point out to the Committee that they are dealing with persons who ever since 1841 have discharged those duties, and although I believe that there are to be found in Ireland persons who have had corresponding experience and who would do the work perhaps as well—though I am not perfectly certain about that—yet by adopting this suggestion we should be putting on one side trained and efficient persons who have done the work in such a manner as to earn the commendation of a perfectly independent Committee, and I think it would not be a good thing to do so. I see here that Mr. Sexton in the Committee on the 1890 Census, in referring to the Irish Census Department, made particular reference to the efficiency which had been displayed by the police in the conduct of this work. The hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Scanlan) referred to the fact that inaccuracies had been discovered in the Census as regards persons approaching the age of seventy. Before you blame the police for that you must remember that the English Census had not been subjected to that particular kind of criticism, because in England the evidence of age is never ascertained by reference to the Census but by reference to the former certificates of birth. Everybody knows, and you cannot help it, that you will find uncertainty in enumeration with regard to the age of very young persons. You do not find that people state age with any very great accuracy when they go back seventy years. Of course you are dealing with people who were of tender years at that time. Therefore the mere fact that there are thousands of cases in Ireland in which the Census has been investigated for the purpose of finding out whether the person is seventy years of age, and the finding that it is not a very complete body of evidence on that point, is not in any
  888
  way to impugn the accuracy of the inquiries made by the police. I will not refer to the question of expense, but if we were to depart from the practice hitherto adopted, the extra expense thrown on the Treasury of the United Kingdom would be a very large sum indeed. I think, therefore, that efficiency and economy require that we should adhere for the future, or, at all events, in this Census, to the practice which has been established most successfully ever since 1841.
  Mr. SCANLAN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the police are not paid for taking the Census?
  Mr. BIRRELL: No. It is part of their duty.
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: There is an agricultural Census taken every year in Ireland by the police. The police visit without complaint every farmer and every man who has a piece of land all over the island year after year. They take the number of his cows, his horses, and his sheep. They take the size of his farm; they take whether it is in green crop or in pasture, and they make themselves acquainted with the entire circumstances of the country even down to the number of fowls which the peasant keeps. That has been done now for forty or fifty years without, as far as my experience in the House goes, one scrap or murmur of complaint. Now the suggestion is that the local bodies and the local population without any complaint whatever or any reason whatever should have cast upon them an expense amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds to be added to the local taxation of Ireland. The duties performed by the police in the matter consist simply in the duties of an ordinary postman in leaving a document at the hall door of the people and taking it up after the lapse of ten or fifteen days. That the police in discharging this very simple duty could in any way come in contact with any section of the population is to my mind a suggestion that could only come from a man wholly unacquainted with the realities of life in Ireland.
  Amendment negatived.
  Mr. HAZLETON: On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for East Tyrone (Mr. Kettle) I beg to move to add to Subsection (2) the words: "and, in the case of any person who so abode being married, of the duration of marriage and the number of children born of the marriage. The account shall further give particulars as to

  889
  whether any person who so abode was blind, deaf, dumb, imbecile, or lunatic."
  I understand that words similar to those now proposed are inserted in the English Bill, and that on former occasions they used to be in the Irish Census as well; but that owing to the incompleteness of returns the right hon. Gentleman did not consider it desirable that the words should be kept on. In my opinion this information, which is recognised in this country and in Scotland, to be useful ought to be included in the Census Bill for Ireland as well.
  Mr. BIRRELL: This Amendment divides itself into two parts. The latter part, giving particulars as to whether any person is blind, deaf, dumb, imbecile, or lunatic, is already provided for by the existing householders' form, the last column of which is headed, "If deaf and dumb, dumb only, blind, imbecile, idiot, or lunatic." Therefore, that part of the Amendment is wholly unnecessary. With reference to the other part, as to the duration of the marriage and the number of children, I am all for uniformity in these matters. England is inserting, this year for the first time, this particular information with regard to the duration and fertility of marriage, in that respect following the example of Ireland, because in Ireland we used—in saving we I desire to associate myself with the country with whose administration I am concerned—to have this particular piece of information. It was abandoned because it was found, as anybody could have foreseen, that it is rather difficult to rely upon the value of statistics which you get from a somewhat hazy memory. I could not myself tell anybody how long I have been married without considerable research, though my memory is still strong enough to say with some confidence the age and the number of my children. At the same time as they have done this in England, I think that in the interests of statistical uniformity there is no objection to having this column in Ireland also, though the more columns you have the more difficult it becomes to secure that you get accurate information, and the whole object of this matter is accurate information. But still, as England has got it, and as Ireland, I daresay, would be quite up to the level of England in the accuracy of the information contained in answer to these questions, I have no objection, unless somebody volunteers an objection, to accept the first part of the hon.
  890
  Member's Amendment. Only in order to secure that it is in agreement with the English Bill it would run: "and, in the case of any person who so abode being married, of the duration of marriage and the number of children born of the marriage." And then you must have the words, "and the number of such children living." With those words added I am prepared to accept the first part of the hon. Member's Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. HAZLETON: I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words, "and, in the case of any person who so abode being married, of the duration of marriage and the number of children born of the marriage, and the number of such children living."
  Mr. MOONEY: I wish to call the attention of the Chief Secretary to the fact that he has referred to a form which he has before him. In the whole of this Bill there is no form. This is the first time that the Irish Census Bill has appeared in this manner. In any previous Bill the forms to be used were set out either in the Sections or in the Appendix of the Bill, and this is the first time that that practice has been departed from. As I have an Amendment lower down I would be glad, if he can go-into it now, to get the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman as to why he has departed from the old practice.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I can assure the hon. Member that there is no intention whatever of inventing any form of our own. If he looks at Section 5, Sub-section (2) of the Bill he will see that the only new forms and instructions that I can issue are "subject to such modifications as are required by or in pursuance of this Act" —that is to say, the alterations and additions of which you have just made one. Subject to that, "the forms and instructions issued under this Section shall be to-the like effect and contain the like matter and particulars"—if the hon. Member likes, I am willing to add the words "only and no others"—"as the form and instructions issued under the Census (Ireland) Act, 1900." I have no desire whatever to have it supposed that we are going to have forms or schedules of a kind which have not been authorised, and I will add only such forms as are necessary, having regard to the alterations in the Act itself. If the hon. Member wishes, and has got

  891
  an Amendment on the Paper, I shall be quite willing to insert the word "only," so as to limit my power.
  Mr. MOONEY: I should be out of order if I were at present to speak on the point, but I think there is another construction that might be put on the Act of 1890.
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
  Mr. BOLAND: I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words, "and shall, as regards persons of the age of eight years and upwards, take an account in writing of the number of such persons who can read only, read and write, or can neither read nor write, respectively."
  When the Bill was under discussion at the time of the Second Reading I called attention to the returns of illiteracy in Ireland as disclosed by the Census, and I had the satisfaction of hearing from the Chief Secretary that the age of five fixed in Ireland was too low. I think I have his assent to the suggestion which I made, but I have put down this Amendment in order to obtain from him a definite assurance. The Chief Secretary, in dealing with this question in the previous Debate, in reply to a question put by myself, promised to consider the form of a table, and stated that the question of the importance of tabulation had been noted for consideration. If his promise went no further than that I am afraid it would not meet my contention. I do not disapprove of the actual system of diagrams or maps or tables that has been adopted, but what I do complain of is the actual starting point adopted in respect of Illiteracy Returns in Ireland. In the Census of 1901 no less than four pages of the volume are taken up by a discussion about illiteracy in Ireland. In addition to that there are four elaborate tables, there is one coloured plate, and two coloured diagrams all about illiteracy, and the general impression conveyed is that there is an extraordinary amount of illiteracy in Ireland. Mr. Frank Sullivan recently contributed to "The Leader," a Dublin weekly publication, an interesting article on the matter, and it brings out all the, points. He wrote:—
  "According to our Census Returns there were in Ireland, 1901, 91,819 children over five years and under six. Of these no fewer than 59,206 are returned as 'illiterates,' and this enormous number—59,206—enters into the Registrar-General's calculations when calculating the 'Percentage of illiteracy.' which he returns as 13.7; 59,206, it may be remarked, is 64 per cent, of the total number of children (91,819) who are five and under six, so that it can easily be seen that the inclusion of these 59,206 tends to make Ireland appear worse educated
  892
  than it is. In America, and in most European countries, children of five are wholly left out of calculations as to percentages of illiteracy. This of course is the proper method. It is absurd to talk of persons as 'illiterates, live years old.' Of six years and under seven there were 90,257 children, and 34,267 of these could not read, and go to swell the grand total of illiterates, and to raise our percentage of illiteracy to 13·7; 34,257 is 38 per cent, of the total at that age (90,257). And in most other countries they—like those of five—would be omitted from all calculations as to percentages of illiteracy. In Ireland, however, we are a self-decrying people, and our statisticians cheerfully add the 'illiterates of six to the illiterates of five,' and so raise the percentage of illiteracy to 13·7. According to the Census Returns for 1901 the percentage of illiteracy for Ireland was 13.7 (page 393 part 2, also diagram 6). This means that of 100 persons five years old and upwards fourteen (13.7 accurately) could not read. Of the remaining eighty-six seventy-nine could read and write, whilst seven could read only. The proportion, 13.7 in 100, of illiterates is very high, and hence Ireland has a reputation of being a backward country educationally."
  What makes the extraordinary arrangement of starting at the age of five so pronounced is that in these diagrams and the Census Returns, which give the number of the population from five years old and upwards, it is immediately followed by a diagram which deals with the educational statistics of the population, and, as far as those statistics are concerned, the children are only counted for school-going purposes, from the age of six up to the age of fourteen, so that the child is not supposed to go to school at all until six years of age. But, unfortunately, the child happens to be only five years of age when returned as illiterate, although, when he goes to school at the age of six, seven, and so on, he for the first time gets an opportunity of learning how to read and write. In addition to the main facts which I have brought before the Committee being utilised, as is the way with modern historians, who take hold of a Blue Book and extract from it a long figure, and with the aid of the imagination draw a vivid picture, immediately following these diagrams of the general percentage of illiteracy throughout the country, there is brought in a division of the people according to their religion. Of course, as will happen in Ireland, being mainly a Catholic country, and a great portion of the Catholic people living in the country districts, it so happens that when these diagrams are published, it looks as if the Catholic people of Ireland are infinitely worse educated than the people of other religious denominations. So that, apart from the fact that quite an improper idea is given of the total illiteracy of the population of Ireland, there is added this unfair fact that uses are made of these statistics—I do not say deliberately—to show that in

  893
  the Catholic parts of the country illiteracy is more pronounced than in the other portions. Besides this fact of the illiteracy of the child starting from a ridiculously low age of five, it is interesting to note that if you examine the Irish-speaking part of the country, such as Donegal and my own county of Kerry, the number of illiterates seems to be extraordinary. In the case of Donegal, it would appear from the Census Return that the percentage of illiterates in the whole of Donegal is no less than 26 per cent.
  I do not wish to go into the historical part of what is called the illiteracy of the Irish-speaking population of Ireland further than to say that the people now returned as illiterate, when they were young, went, as Irish-speaking children, to a school where the master did not know the Irish language, and they were taught English; but, after leaving school, and going back home, they forgot what they had learned of that language, and went back to the Irish language. When the Census was taken, having forgotten the little English they knew after they left school, they were returned as illiterates. A great many of these Irish-speaking people know their own language well— there are poets in that language—and they are able to recite reams of poetry learned by heart in Irish, yet they are unable to read or write. When these people, in their early years, were denied that proper education which ought to be given to all, and when, in addition, these totals of illiteracy are swollen in the way they are, no wonder the total percentage of illiteracy in Ireland is put at no less than 14 per cent. When the Chief Secretary takes into consideration all these circumstances, I do submit to him that the starting-point for illiteracy returns should not be lower than eight years of age. When we were discussing this matter on a previous occasion, the Chief Secretary agreed to my suggestion that the American figure —which I think is the age of ten—should be taken as a starting-point, but I am quite willing to make the suggestion in the form of the Amendment that I move, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to it, and will take as a starting-point for this very useful return, the age I propose. I sincerely hope that the answer he will give will render it unnecessary that I should take the matter to a Division. I beg to move.
  7.0 P.M.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I quite agree with the hon. Member that this is an interesting question. I will tell the Committee exactly where it stands. The householder's form, which is left at all houses, contains a column in which is set out "Whether he or she can read or write, can read only, or cannot read." That column is filled up regardless of whether it applies to an infant of six months: it applies to the whole population. Then the Census Commission proceeds to tabulate the information which they are thus getting. It has been always their practice to classify all children under five years of age as illiterate. Having got to know the facts before them, they proceed to classify them, and if they find that a person five years old, whether he or she, could not read or write, that information was included among that pertaining to illiteracy. If you ask me as a human being, I think that is a ridiculously early age at which to cast against anybody a slur upon their intelligence, or upon the care of their parents, because they cannot read or write. There are plenty of instances of children of five who have been able to read and write, and even to know Latin and Greek, not to speak of Irish, which is a difficult language. But the slur should not be brought against any child in my judgment, or against any country which contains a number of children of five years of age, because they cannot read or write. I think it is rather well for a country that a great number of such children should be left with untroubled minds. These tables, however, have been prepared since 1841. The hon. Member naturally and properly is jealous of the reputation of his country, but there is really nothing in these figures which can give him any cause for objection. In 1841, of the population then over five years of age, 53 per cent, were illiterate. In 1901 only 14 per cent, were illiterate, even including those harmless infants of five years of age. I do not think I should like to destroy, for the purposes of comparison hereafter, all the information which we have obtained in these tables, which begin at the age of five, because if we were to abolish them altogether we should have great trouble and confusion arising in the minds of statisticians, because they would be comparing things which were not likes at all; that is to say, comparing the figures of persons of eight years of age who can read or write with persons of five years of age. I do not think my hon. Friend would desire, as it were, to destroy what-

  895
  ever advantages we have obtained from the statistics which we have carefully collected in reference to people of five years of age. I have knocked on the head, I hope, for a time, this imputation of illiteracy against Ireland by providing that there shall be a new table winch should show the illiteracy of persons of eight years of age, so that the tables of the Census Returns will show the proportion or percentage of the population, eight years and upwards, which can read and write. Therefore you will have in the forefront of the Census Returns this return, providing for persons of eight years and upwards. That will remove any possibility of any imputation being brought generally against the country because children of five years of age are included. I certainly promise that there will be a table of that kind included in the Census Returns. I think eight years of age is a reasonable age. The hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Boland) mentioned that in the American system the age is ten, but still children are supposed to go to school at six, and after they have had two years of schooling it is not unreasonable that they should be able to read and write. I do not think, therefore, that eight years of age is unreasonable. I hope the hon. Member will be satisfied with the promise to include a table showing the percentage of the population eight years and upwards.
  Mr. BOLAND:I am quite satisfied with the undertaking which the Chief Secretary has given, if you will only qualify it in this way. I understand that he will still continue, as under the old system, to collect statistics of illiteracy, starting from the age of one, two, three, four, five, and so on. If the right hon. Gentleman will give me an undertaking that as far as what I may call the statistics of illiteracy in the Census Returns that they will only take from the age of eight I shall be satisfied.
  Mr. BIRRELL: Yes; that is what I intend.
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: I think the age of eight is quite too young. The right hon. Gentleman has laid down a very important proposition just now. He says that taking six as a school age, a child ought to be able to read and write after two years. The thing is absurd. There is not a child able to read and write, taking the ordinary schools, under at least three years. The
  896
  children in Germany and France can learn to read and write much more quickly, and in Germany in nine months. We just throw away two years of the children's lives by the abominable system of spelling in the English language. The right hon. Gentleman, who is an English educationist, now lays it down that an English child can learn to read and write in two years. I deny it. To my mind the right hon. Gentleman has laid down what is a startling proposition. He has not recalled the controversy that has gone on on this subject for very many years as to the teaching of the children of English-speaking parents compared with those of German, French, Dutch, or Italian nationalities. If he does he will find that he has laid down a proposition which cannot be supported. I do not think any English educationist will support him. I think the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Boland) is right in taking ten as the age. The matter is not controversial. The right hon. Gentleman must probably have some good reason, which he has not stated to the House, for fixing eight. I hope that between now and the Report stage he will get further information, and that in the interval he will come to a different decision.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am not going to talk about the educational standard, but I should certainly say eight as an age to read and write. I know a great number of men competent and in high positions who can neither read nor write in the proper sense of the words. But this is a Census we are speaking about, and when it is said there that a person can read and write it does not mean read well or write grammatically. It means that they are able to read the most simple book and sign their names. It does not mean any standard. Therefore I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that to say that any child after being two years at school is really learned and able to read and write the English language would be nonsense. But I think that children in two years become literate in the very limited and restricted sense of the Census. think eight years will be found to be suitable, but I will turn the matter over in my mind and see if a year might not be added.
  Mr. MOORE: I came in while the matter was being discussed, and I was struck with the observation of the hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Boland), who said for other purposes connected with the returns of illiteracy that it was very important we

  897
  should have what was promised by the Chief Secretary. I wonder what are the purposes? I quite understand how the system of illiterates are understood, and I know that in the views of hon. Members below the Gangway other purposes are generally political purposes. I think there would be nothing in this but for the value of the existing returns for political purposes. We have a number of illiterates who vote at elections, and the Member for South Donegal (Mr. Swift MacNeill) represents the greatest majority of illiterates who vote in any constituency.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

  CLAUSE 5.—(Forms and Instructions.)
  (1) The Chief or Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant shall prepare and issue such forms and instructions as he may think necessary for the taking of the Census, and the Census shall be taken by means of and in the manner prescribed by those forms and instructions, and no question shall be put for the purpose of obtaining information other than the information required by those forms and instructions.
  (2) Subject to such modifications as are required by or in pursuance of this Act, the forms and instructions issued under this Section shall be to the like effect and contain the like matters and particulars as the forms and instructions issued under the Census (Ireland) Act, 1900.
  (3) The expenses incurred with the approval of the Treasury for the purposes of the Census shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.
  Mr. MOONEY: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "and the Census shall be taken by means of and in the manner prescribed by those forms and instructions, and no question shall be put for the purpose of obtaining information other than the information required by those forms and instructions."
  This is to restore the Clause as it was in the Acts of 1890 and 1900 which set out what forms were to be used. For the first time, in this Bill, the whole of the words after the word "Census" have been omitted, and the Chief Secretary could use any forms he liked.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Redmond Barry): The Government quite agree with the hon. Member's view that the forms in use in 1900 should continue in the present year. That certainly is the intention of the Government, and I think it is secured by the terms of: the Bill as it stands. But to place the matter beyond any doubt we propose after the word "particulars" to insert the word "only," and we will use precisely the same forms.
  Mr. MOONEY: I do not think that that does carry out the intention because the Chief Secretary is empowered to make any forms he may think necessary. Under the Act of 1890 there was a limitation, and the forms were set forth in these specific words. Here there is no limitation. I am surprised that the Attorney-General should think that the word "only" would restrict the Chief Secretary from making absolutely new forms. If he will give me an assurance that the intention of the Government is to use similar forms I will withdraw.
  Mr. MAURICE HEALY: The second Sub-section is absolutely inconsistent with the first. The first Sub-section says that the Chief Secretary can have any forms he likes, while the second says that the forms must be of the kind prescribed.
  Mr. REDMOND BARRY: I do not think there is any doubt at all.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "particulars," insert the word "only."—[Mr. Redmond Barry.]
  Clauses 6, 7, 8, and 9 agreed to.
  Bill, with Amendments, reported to the House; to be considered to-morrow (Wednesday).

  SMALL HOLDINGS (No. 3) BILL.
  As amended, considered.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: On the Second Reading of this Bill, I urged that iii fairness to those who had already been dispossessed of their farms or portions of them for small holdings, or who might be dispose sessed before the Bill became operative,

  899
  the measure ought to be made retrospective. I should like to express my appreciation of the fact that the Government have inserted a clause making the Bill retrospective in all cases in which, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture, justice would be done by such a course. I have no doubt whatever that the discretion vested in the Board in this respect will be wisely and equitably exercised. I also stated that it seemed to me. unfair that, as the Bill originally stood, a written request to a landlord should be necessary on the part of a county council to entitle a tenant to compensation under the Bill. I am glad to see that the Government have excised the word "written." It would have been most unfair that a tenant should have been deprived of compensation which he would otherwise have received in consequence of an irregularity committed by persons over whom he had no control, and I wish to thank the Government for the concession they have made in this respect. We all know that there has been on the part of farmers some reluctance to accelerate the acquisition of their farms for the purpose of small holdings. It is human nature that it should be so; but I cannot help thinking that there will be a greater tendency on the part of the farming community, now that they see under this Bill that justice is likely to be done to them in this respect, to do what they can to facilitate the acquisition of land for this purpose in all reasonable cases.
  Mr. MOUNT: At the end of the new Clause which was inserted in Committee a time limit is set out after which compensation in retrospective cases cannot be made. I understood from the Parliamentary Secretary that the time referred to when notice was given. I am not clear whether that is so; but perhaps before the Bill goes to another place the First Commissioners of Works will consider whether words are necessary to make it quite clear that the date 1st September, 1910 shall be the date by which notice of a claim for compensation shall be given, and not the whole claim with details and so forth.
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Harcourt): I have taken advice on this point, and the nature of that advice is that the word "claim" in this Clause does not mean the full details of the claim, but simply the making of a claim; therefore it covers the point
  900
  raised by the hon. Member. But before the Bill becomes law I will make further inquiry, and if necessary have some such words as "notice of the claim" inserted.

DUKE OF YOEK'S SCHOOL (CHAPEL) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)

DUKE OF YOEK'S SCHOOL (CHAPEL) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Vesting of Chapel in the Commissioners of Works.)
  The chapel and the site thereof shall as from the passing of this Act, be vested in the Commissioners of Works for an estate of inheritance in fee simple in possession freed and discharged from all ecclesiastical uses, but subject to the like trusts as those upon which the other buildings formerly so occupied as aforesaid are held by the Commissioners.
  Lord BALCARRES: I hope the First Commissioner of Works will take this opportunity of making a fuller statement as to the destination of the site of the Duke of York's School and as to the financial position arising from the policy which has been informally announced. In view of the decision of the Government to hand over this site for the use of the Territorial Force, why is it necessary to proceed with Clause 1 in its present form? That Clause was necessary when it was the intention of the Government to sell the ground on which the chapel now stands, but I cannot understand why the land, which in future is to belong for military purposes to the London Territorial Force, should be held in trust by the Commissioners of Works, who have nothing to do with the matter, and should continue subject to trusts similar to those upon which the buildings now existing have been held. I should have thought that all that became superfluous now that the buildings, or a part of them, are to be pulled down and the ground handed over to the Territorial Force. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will also explain how the financial adjustments will be made. The object of the Bill as introduced was to enable the Government to sell the whole site and to-destroy the existing chapel in order to pay for the new Duke of York's School at Dover. If this ground is to be handed over

  901
  to the London Territorial Force, clearly the money to pay for the buildings at Dover, which up to now has come out of the loans, will have to be found elsewhere. I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will explain whether a Supplementary Estimate will be necessary or how the general financial situation is to be adjusted.
  Mr. HARCOURT: The actual method of the adjustment of the financial proceedings will be between the War Office and the Treasury and does not concern my Department. The money has already been advanced for the whole of the new buildings on the site near Dover.
  Mr. GIBSON BOWLES: By whom?
  Mr. HARCOURT: By the War Office.
  Lord BALCARRES: But it has not been finally paid.
  Mr. HARCOURT: My contractor has been paid. The object of this Bill was to enable the Government, not to sell the whole site, but to sell or dispose of this small part of the site and to destroy or deconsecrate the chapel. The reason why it is vested in the Commissioners of Works is that the whole site is still vested in them, and this chapel site, which will then be vested in the Commissioners free from any ecclesiastical user, will be transferred to the War Office in the usual way with the rest of the site.
  Mr. GIBSON BOWLES: I think this point requires more elucidation. The matter is of some financial importance. Are we to understand that the War Office has lent the money for the new schools? If so, under what conditions and under what authority, Parliamentary or otherwise? There seems to have been grave irregularities, some of them of a dangerous character. The War Office is a Department for war purposes; it is not a money-lending Department. Do I understand that the War Office is advancing the extra expenses which are being incurred with regard to this school?
  Mr. HARCOURT: The advance was made out of War Office loans, under the authority of Parliament, for the purpose of building the school at Dover. This Bill, however, is not concerned with any financial arrangements. All my Department had to do was to erect the new school.
  Mr. ASHLEY: Where did the money come from to pay your workmen?
  Mr. HARCOURT: It was advanced to me by the War Office. I only wanted money to pay my contractor.
  Lord BALCARRES: The right hon. Gentleman has left the matter at the point at which my inquiry began. The school at Dover has been built by the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and the War Office and the right hon. Gentleman between them have paid £130,000, or whatever the amount is, to the contractor. But the authority of the War Office was only to advance the money. We still owe the money. At present it is only in the Loan Bill. That money has got to be paid off. The object of introducing this Bill, as the right hon. Gentleman says, was solely to remove the technical disqualification for the usage of this site, and to free a valuable bit of land upon which this chapel stands. Having freed the chapel from ecclesiastical user, the value of the site has been greatly increased. The right hon. Gentleman having removed the school was, I think, quite right to pull down the chapel so as to increase the value of the land. Having destroyed the chapel, the land was to be sold. That was announced by the right hon. Gentleman three months ago. The object of that sale was to recoup the Government for the outlay upon the school at Guston. What I want to know is: Where is the money that is to come from this sacrifice? How is a Supplementary Estimate going to be presented to recoup the Government for the money already spent at Dover, which they have expected to be recouped by the sale of the land at Chelsea, which for very good reasons is going to be handed over to another public Department?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Mallet): As I understand it, the arrangement is this: The school at Guston was built by a loan under the Military Works Loan Act, which supplied £205,000, I think it was. The War Office thought that when the site at Chelsea was taken over they would be able to realise money for it to repay that. Under the arrangement which has been come to between the Office of Works, the Treasury, and the War Office, the site at Chelsea was not sold. It was valued. I understand the valuation will represent the value of £205,000 or more. Thus the repayment will re in the form

  903
  of the school at Dover, which will stand I to the credit of the War Office, and there may be some additional surplus of a few thousand pounds.
  Lord BALCARRES: That is not paying back.
  Mr. GIBSON BOWLES: It is surely rather important that an answer should be given when we ask where the money is to come from to pay this £205,000. We are told that the new school will be credited with it. That is not payment. The question still remains: you were going to get £205,000 for this land. You are not now going to get. it, because it is going to be used for the Territorial Forces. Whence does the sum arise that you expected to get, and are not going to get? It is no answer to say that the sum is going to be made an entry in the books of the new school. Where are you going to get the money from, and are you going to introduce an Army Supplementary Estimate or not?
  Mr. CARLILE: Is it not a fact that the whole of the money advanced for the building of the school was advanced by the War Office out of the money provided for the building of barracks which were not built and that the money was diverted to this place?
  Mr. HARCOURT: I have really made no inquiries. It is not my business to know exactly where the money came from so long as it was provided for my purpose. It is possible that the particular operation described by the hon. Gentleman was one that took place. But any diversion which has taken place was authorised by the terms of the Act set up for the original loan.
  Captain JESSEL: I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to put right certain misconceptions that have arisen when he said, "the whole of the eleven acres, more or less." He was, I suppose, referring to the site. We understood, those of us who joined with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea, that negotiations had taken place between the right hon. Gentleman and the War Office, and that the whole of the site was to be given over to the London Territorials. Is it a fact that the site is more than eleven acres? [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] After the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for War, we are still in some doubt. I am sure I do not wish
  904
  in the least to be hostile to the Bill, because the right hon. Gentleman and the War Office have met even Chelsea and London, as a whole, in a most generous manner. In fact, the Territorials are deeply indebted for the arrangement made by the Government, and it is only for the purpose of asking this information and of allaying some misapprehension that has arisen in this Debate that I rise. I do hope sincerely that this arrangement may be allowed to go through, because it is one which is very beneficial both to the Territorial Forces, and there is a reserved open space for London.
  Mr. HARCOURT: When I said "eleven acres more or less" I was not binding myself to the actual measurement of the site. What I intended to convey was the fact that the whole site of the Duke of York's School was handed over to the War Office for Territorial purposes. No part is reserved for any sale or for use.
  Earl WINTERTON: May I inquire whether this loan is a permanent loan or not on the security of the land, or is it merely a working arrangement?
  Mr. MALLET: At present that is the situation. I cannot, I am afraid, give the House the arrangement, but we propose to pay off the loan by agreement—that is the loan secured on the value of the land at Guston. I have no reason to think that the money was diverted from any other purpose.
  Bill reported without Amendment; read a third time, and passed.
  ADJOURNMENT. — Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Joseph Pease.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Nineteen minutes before Eight o'clock.

  Inland Revenue (Mineral Department).
  Inland Revenue (Mineral Department).
  Post Office and Trustee Savings Banks.
  Post Office and Trustee Savings Banks.
FINANCE ACT, 1909–10.
  TEMPORARY VALUERS.
  TEMPORARY VALUERS.
  INCOME TAX, SCHEDULE A.
  INCOME TAX, SCHEDULE A.
  Road Improvement Fund.
  Road Improvement Fund.
  Royal Navy (Stewards' Assistants).
  Royal Navy (Stewards' Assistants).
  Police Protection (Ireland).
  Police Protection (Ireland).
  Extra Police (Ireland).
  Extra Police (Ireland).
  Cattle-drives (Ireland).
  Cattle-drives (Ireland).
  Boycotting Cases (Ireland).
  Boycotting Cases (Ireland).
  Compensation for Malicious Injuries(Ireland).
  Compensation for Malicious Injuries(Ireland).
  Outrages in Ireland (Use of Firearms).
  Outrages in Ireland (Use of Firearms).
  Ordnance Factories (Discharge of Workmen).
  Ordnance Factories (Discharge of Workmen).
  Tidworth Barracks (Water Supply).
  Tidworth Barracks (Water Supply).
  Expulsion Order Cancelled (Glasgow Conviction).
  Expulsion Order Cancelled (Glasgow Conviction).
  Breaches of Prison Discipline.
  Breaches of Prison Discipline.
  East India (Financial Statement).
  East India (Financial Statement).
  Indian Budget.
  Indian Budget.
  Death of British Seaman in Rosario.
  Death of British Seaman in Rosario.
  Newport Dock Dispute.
  Newport Dock Dispute.
  Parcel Post Rates (Madeira).
  Parcel Post Rates (Madeira).
  Board of Agriculture Inspectors (North Wales).
  Board of Agriculture Inspectors (North Wales).
  Outdoor Relief (Pay Stations).
  Outdoor Relief (Pay Stations).

Preamble
Several Lords Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 6). [H.L.]
Also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Shirebrook and District Gas.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL.
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No.2) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LITTLE HULTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
EGREMONT URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (GAS) BILL.
BRISTOL GAS BILL.
EXMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.

EXMOUTH GAS BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment.
SOUTH HANTS WATER BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Londesborough be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Earl Fortescue; read, and agreed to.
NORTH EAST LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
WATER SUPPLIES (PROTECTION) BILL. [H.L.]
The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to Members of the Committee, and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order. (No.72.)
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to the Caledonian Railway—Was presented by the Lord Pentland (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act,1899, sections 8 and 9); read la, and to be printed.(No.73.)
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No.2) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to order).

POLICE (WEEKLY REST-DAY) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Ridley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
No constable to be on duty more than six days in any week.
1.—(1) The police authority of any county or borough in England or Wales as respects which this Act is for the time being in force shall make such arrangements as to the hours of duty of constables that every constable (not being above the rank of inspector) shall be allowed at least fifty-two days in a year on which he is not required to perform police duty, save on occasions of public emergency, and for such days being distributed throughout the year with the object of securing, so far as practicable, to every such constable one day's rest in every seven.
(2) This Act shall not come into force as respects any police authority until such date as may be fixed by the authority, but if this Act has not come into force as respects the police authority of any county borough maintaining a separate police force before the expiration of four years from the passing of this Act, it shall come into force as respects that authority at the expiration of that period. And if this Act has not come into operation as respects any other police authority before the expiration of such period as may hereafter be fixed by Order in Council, it shall come into operation at the expiration of that period, and the Order may apply cither to all such other police authorities generally or to any authority specified in the Order.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP)THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP) moved to omit from subsection (1) the word "public" ["save on occasion of 'public' emergency"]. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is not a very important Amendment, but your Lordships will see that some inconvenience might be caused if it is not adopted. The emergency might not be of a public character. For instance, supposing there was a whole lot of illness in the Police Force. That would not be an emergency of a public character, yet it might obstruct the whole working of the Force. Therefore I hope your Lordships will agree to leave out the word.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out ("public").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BELPER LORD BELPER moved to amend subsection (2) so that it would read—
(2) This Act shall not come into force as respects any police authority until such date as may be fixed by the authority, but if this Act has not come into force as respects any police authority on the expiration of four years from the passing of this Act, His Majesty may direct by Order in Council that it shall come into force at the expiration of such period as may be fixed by the Order, and this Act shall come into force
1026
accordingly: Provided that before any Order in Council is made under this Act the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament and if an Address is presented to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent thirty days on which that House has sat next after any such draft is laid before it no further proceedings shall be taken thereon without prejudice to the making of any new draft order.
He also proposed to add the following new subsection—
(3) An Order in Council under this Act may apply either to all police authorities generally in respect of which this Act has not come into force or to any authority specified in the Order.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think I had better say a few words to explain the scope and the exact intention of my Amendment. It probably might be, for the purposes of an Amendment, divided into two. The first part deals with the question of the four years. As the Bill stands, the Act will come into compulsory operation in every county borough maintaining a separate police force at the expiration of four years after the passing of the Act, while with regard to other authorities, including all the large counties, the time for it to come into operation is to be fixed by an Order in Council. There is no limit put on the time when that Order in Council may be first enforced, and therefore the object of my first Amendment is to say that the Order in Council shall not be issued until the same period—namely, after the expiration of four years. The provision as to the expiration of four years will apply to every Police Force, and if, as I believe, the intention was to give a certain latitude with regard to counties, whose case has not been properly considered before the Committee, I think it would be obvious that it would be a hardship upon them if an Order in Council were issued the moment the Bill passed, without the same limit of time as is given to county boroughs. That is the intention of the first part of my Amendment.
With regard to the second part of the Amendment I must say a few words, because it seems to me that the discussion, which was not a long one, on the Second Reading did not sufficiently point out that the case of the counties and also of some of the smaller boroughs had not at all been considered by the Committee which sat upon the Bill in the House of Lords. But as far as it was considered, they made a very great distinction between the two

1027
cases. In their report the Committee stated that—
"It will be admitted that little or no comparison is possible between the daily life of a police constable on duty in the heart of the metropolis and that of a constable stationed in a sparsely inhabited rural district, more or less free from crime or any approach to disorder."
That was exactly our case on the Second Reading—that they were not on all fours at all, and that the life of a policeman who is posted in a rural district is not at all to be compared with that of a man who is amongst a very large population and exposed to very disagreeable and dangerous work. The Committee went on to say—
"As a matter of fact, the figures given in evidence as to health in the Police Force show a marked improvement. Your Committee are not able to find that the question of one day's rest in seven has been at all widely or generally raised or discussed by those affected by, or responsible for, the cost—namely, the ratepayers and their elected representatives.
The Committee continued—
"Having regard to these and other facts and circumstances which might be mentioned, your Committee do not recommend at present the enactment of the Bill which has been referred to them, applying as it does to the whole of England and Wales."
Considering that that comes from the Committee who recommend the Bill as far as London goes, I think one would not have been altogether unreasonable if one had taken exception to the Bill referring to the counties, and also, possibly, to some of the other boroughs. But the Bill having passed the other House, and having met with unanimous support there, it is very difficult at this stage to limit its scope; but I do think that it is only a very moderate and reasonable proposal which I make with regard to this Amendment—namely, that in each case where an Order in Council is issued it should be submitted to the House for consideration before it actually takes effect.
The wording of this Amendment has been carefully considered. The difficulty as to Parliament over-riding an Order made by the King in Council can only be got over in the way suggested—that is, that before the Order is made a draft of it should be laid on the Table of the House. That is what my Amendment proposes. In the latter part of my Amendment I suggest that if an Address is presented to His
1028
Majesty against the draft or any part thereof by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent thirty days on which that House has sat next after any such draft is laid before it, no further proceedings should be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new draft Order. I should like to point out that, although I have addressed my remarks principally with regard to the counties, whose case I am more conversant with and whose case I represent, as far as my Amendment goes this provision that the Order in Council shall lie on the Table for thirty days applies not only to counties but also to boroughs. There are a great many boroughs, I do not say in the same position as counties, but at all events in a different position from London, and I have thought it desirable in the first instance to make it applicable to the whole of these, and it is in that form that I move my Amendment. I think I ought to point out that the words I have quoted from the Report do not refer merely to the counties, although I think the case is stronger in the counties, but to all the other boroughs outside London, and that the recommendation of the Committee was with regard to London only.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out from ("respects") to the end of the clause and insert ("any police authority on the expiration of four "years from the passing of this Act, His Majesty "may direct by Order in Council that it shall "come into force at the expiration of such period "as may be fixed by the Order, and this Act "shall come into force accordingly: Provided "that before any Order in Council is made under this Act the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament and if an Address is presented to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent thirty days on which that House has sat next after any such draft is laid before it no further proceedings shall be taken thereon without prejudice to the making of any new draft order.
"(3) An Order in Council under this Act may apply either to all police authorities generally in respect of which this Act has not come into force or to any authority specified in the Order").—(Lord Belper.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, His Majesty's Government having given this Bill their support, I rise to offer to your Lordships their advice with regard to the Amendment which the noble Lord has just moved. He divides his Amendment into two parts. I hope he will allow me to deal first with the second part—that

1029
part which deals with the Order in Council being laid before each House of Parliament. To that His Majesty's Government offer no objection, and they would be glad if the noble Viscount who is in charge of the Bill sees his way to adopt it. But with regard to the other part, to which I think the noble Lord did not devote quite so much attention, I hope I may be allowed to say a few words in explaining why it is that we see some objection to the adoption of the first part of the Amendment. Your Lordships will see that the noble Viscount deals differently in the Bill with county boroughs from other police authorities. In the first part of the second subsection county boroughs are dealt with first of all, and then, in line 22, "any other police authority." That is to say, the promoters of the Bill have recognised that a different set of circumstances exists in the large county boroughs from that which exists in county areas and also in smaller boroughs. Whenever we have a Bill dealing with local government in this House it is almost without exception that we hear from some noble Lord that we should recognise the difference between the different sets of circumstances, and that we should not try to make one rigid law applicable to both. That was the intention of the noble Viscount and the promoters of the Bill—namely, to make some distinction between the large boroughs and other police authorities, and that is the distinction with which the noble Lord who moves the Amendment really does away. He proposes that they should be dealt with in exactly the same manner. The reason why the promoters introduced this difference in regard to the police force in the large boroughs and the police force in other areas was that their experience in London led them to believe that it takes some time to get the increased number of police necessary in order to give effect to this Bill. It is very undesirable suddenly to have a large number of recruits in any police force, and from experience in London the promoters are inclined to think four years the proper period to give the large county boroughs in order that they may get the necessary number of recruits to be able to carry the Bill into effect. The result of the noble Lord's Amendment is, in the first place, to sweep away the difference between the county boroughs and the other areas, and, in the second place, he does not make it compulsory, as the Bill does, upon the county boroughs.
LORD BELPER: I beg the noble Earl's pardon. The Amendment does not interfere with the compulsion on county boroughs in four years.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: In the third line of his Amendment the noble Lord says, "His Majesty may direct by Order in Council that it shall come into force."
LORD BELPER: That is after the expiration of four years.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: The noble Lord will see that his Amendment would read—
"This Act shall not come into force as respects any police authority until such date as may be fixed by the authority, but if this Act has not come into force as respects any police authority on the expiration of four years from the passing of this Act, His Majesty may direct by Order in Council that it shall come into force at the expiration of such period as may be fixed by the Order, and this Act shall come into force accordingly."
I think your Lordships will see, under the general interpretation, that the word "may" is permissive, and makes some difference in the phraseology of the Bill as it stands at this moment. I think, if the noble Lord will look at the Bill and consider the effect of his Amendment, he will see that it takes away, so far as county boroughs are concerned, the compulsion provided for. That really is one of the reasons why His Majesty's Government would be unwilling to see this part of the noble Lord's Amendment adopted. In their opinion this different treatment of county boroughs is really necessary. I do not know that in the debate which took place on the Second Reading any very strong objection was taken to this point in the House; and, in view of the larger opportunities for objection which will be allowed by accepting the second part of the noble Lord's Amendment and making it necessary that the draft Order should be laid before your Lordships' House, I venture to hope that we may be able to come to a general agreement on the subject. There will be certain verbal Amendments necessary, but with those I shall not venture to trouble your Lordships until I know whether the suggestions which I venture to make are generally acceptable.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, I hope, on behalf of the promoters of this Bill, that the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment will be content with the

1031
second portion of it. As regards that portion, I may say that it was distinctly understood by the framers of the Bill that there were different circumstances in county boroughs and in counties, and for that reason there appeared in the Bill a different practice as regards those different areas. When the noble Lord asks that as regards the counties, which may be dealt with by an Order in Council, there should be the fullest opportunity for Parliament to revise and discuss that Order in Council, I venture to say I consider that a great improvement on the Bill and a proper provision to be inserted in it. In fact, I think I committed an error towards this House in not explaining more fully on Second Reading the difference in practice which it was proposed to adopt in the Bill. But as regards the other portion of the Amendment, it seems to me that it is nugatory of the intention of the Bill, which is that within four years this provision should come into force in county boroughs. After what has fallen from the noble Earl who represents the Home Office, I trust that the noble Lord who has moved the Amendment will content himself with that important part of it which provides that Parliament should have the revision of the Order in Council, and that he will not, by insisting on the first portion of his Amendment, render the Bill practically nugatory in a large number of important boroughs in this kingdom.
LORD WENLOCK: My Lords, on the Second Reading I ventured to enter a protest against the manner in which the payment was going to be taken from local authorities to meet the expenses of this Bill. I did so on behalf of a very important borough, and I appeal to my noble friend who has moved this Amendment to insist upon boroughs being included within the procedure he proposes to adopt. It would give county boroughs an opportunity of stating their case the same as counties, and if they fail to make out their case it will be open to the Government of the day to place compulsion upon them. I earnestly hope that the Government will see their way to give boroughs the same opportunity that they are going to give to counties. In the first place, the great boroughs are not being consulted, and if they were canvassed I am confident that it would be found that there is considerable opposition to this Bill. Very few of those authorities know what the effect of the Bill
1032
will be. It was only yesterday that this matter was mentioned before the Standing Joint Committee of my own county, and I was surprised to find how very few people had ascertained what the effect of it would be. In view of the fact that the result of this Bill has not been thoroughly grasped by those who represent the ratepayers up and down the country, I hope Government will be good enough to allow county boroughs the same opportunity as counties, which would be the result of carrying the other part of my noble friend's Amendment. I hope my noble friend will stick to his Amendment as it stands. Every local authority will then have the opportunity of having their case properly stated in Parliament before compulsion is put upon them.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I am afraid I am very obtuse, but I listened with great attention to the speeches of the noble Earl opposite and of my noble friend on my right (Viscount Ridley) and I fail to understand why they desire a different treatment for boroughs from that to be meted out to counties. The noble Earl opposite told us that it is necessary in a borough—apparently he is advised that it is not necessary in a county—that four years should elapse before a sufficient number of new police could be obtained in order to allow the remaining members of the force to have one day's rest in seven. That I can quite understand, and there is nothing as far as I see in the noble Lord's Amendment which deprives them of that four years. The noble Earl went on to say that the Amendment did away with compulsion, but neither Lord Ridley nor the noble Earl opposite told us why compulsion is necessary in the case of boroughs when it is not necessary in the case of counties. Again I should like to emphasise what fell from my noble friend Lord Belper, that the Committee which had the whole of this subject under consideration drew a clear distinction between the metropolis and other places, including large boroughs, and by doing so they distinctly left the inference upon their Report that they did not think that it was necessary, or that the time had come, for other authorities than the metropolis to be forced to carry this provision into effect. The counties are to have four years warning that they are liable to an Order in Council forcing them to come under the provisions of this Bill,

1033
and then, after those four years have expired, the Order in Council is to be laid before the House. Why are the boroughs not to have the protection which is demanded, and which I am glad the noble Earl is willing to give, in the case of the counties—namely, that each particular case should have the opportunity of being considered by this House before this compulsion, which the Committee who have inquired into the question have not recommended and which is simply the invention of a certain number of private Members of the House of Commons, is forced upon them. I do hope we shall insist on this Amendment. It is quite a reasonable one, and I fail at the present moment to see why the noble Viscount thinks it makes the provisions of the Bill so far as boroughs are concerned nugatory.
LORD BELPER: My Lords, I think some answer is necessary with regard to the remarks of the noble Earl opposite upon my Amendment. In the first place, let me say that in using the expression "His Majesty may direct by Order in Council" I have followed the universal form in Acts relating to Orders in Council. It would not be correct to say that His Majesty shall make an Order. This practically leaves it to the Government to make the Order in Council on the very day they desire to make it. As soon as the four years have elapsed they can make the Order in Council at once. Therefore as far as the question of the use of the word "may" is concerned there is nothing in it, because that is the usual form in Acts of Parliament. As regards the distinction between the large boroughs and the counties, I cannot see that the noble Earl made out his case. What are the facts? He says that the big boroughs, being large police authorities, would require more time to arrange for the extra police that might be required. But what are the figures that are given in this return? It appears that the distribution of the police is as follows—in the metropolis, 17,258; in boroughs having their own police force, 18,713; and in counties, 17,038. No doubt some of these counties are very much smaller than others, but some are very much larger than the boroughs, and have very large police forces. And if it is necessary to give this period of four years latitude to a county borough, surely it is just as necessary in many counties to give ample time for the
1034
consideration of the matter. The fact is, distinction is being made without any case for it having been made out in the Report of this Committee. The Committee themselves say that the only distinction they can draw is between the police force in London and that in other parts of the country. I venture to say that it would be a rather strong action where no particular case had been made out to apply compulsory powers by the issue of an Order in Council at any moment directly the Act is passed, not giving even four years grace. I should strongly object to give way with regard to that, and so far as the distinction between counties and boroughs is concerned I cannot see that the noble Earl has made out a case which would justify their being treated in a totally different manner.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I am glad to find myself in agreement with Lord Belper on one point. I quite agree that I did not make out my case as to the distinction between county boroughs and smaller areas with regard to the Order in Council, a matter to which Lord Wenlock also referred. It had not been my intention to make any distinction in areas, because if the noble Lord will look at his own Amendment he will see that that part of it which we should be glad to accept says that "Provided that before any Order in Council is made under this Act the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament." That covers all areas, county boroughs, county areas, and the smaller boroughs. There would not be any difference between them. With regard to the other part of the Amendment, may I venture to put forward another difficulty which might arise if we accept it. Supposing four years passed, and at the end of that time the county borough had made no preparation for adding to its number of police, and the draft Order directed a weekly rest-day to be given, there would have to be a further delay before there would be a sufficient number of police to allow the rest-day to be given. So that what would happen under the first part of the Amendment of the noble Lord would be that there would be, first, a delay of four years, and then there would be another delay of four years possibly before they would be able to get a sufficient number of police in order to give a weekly rest-day. That is a practical difficulty, and might inflict some hardship in

1035
the case of the big county boroughs. I am glad to find that the noble Lord is anxious that this Order in Council should be made applicable to all these authorities, and being so far heartily in agreement with him I hope he will withdraw the other part of his Amendment.
LORD WENLOCK: The same difficulty would arise in the case of big counties as in the case of big boroughs.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I agree; but would it not be different in degree? With counties you have scattered areas, and it is possible to arrange the matter more easily in counties than in towns. The circumstances are rather different, and we ought to make some distinction in the regulations affecting them.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I intervene with great reluctance, because I have not studied the question with the close attention that has been given to it by my noble friends. It seems to me that a very important concession has been offered to Lord Belper by the acceptance of the latter part of his Amendment—that which requires these Orders in Council to lie on the Table of the House for a certain number of days. It is the case, no doubt, that that applies to all Orders in Council.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Hear, hear.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: That disposes satisfactorily of a part, at any rate, of the proposal of my noble friend Lord Belper. With regard to the other part of his Amendment, I would venture to suggest that, in deference to the strong pressure which has been put upon him on the part of the Home Office, he should not press it at this moment, but should reserve to himself the right of bringing up words at a future stage if on further consideration he thinks that necessary.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: I confess I did not quite understand, what I now gather from the remarks of the noble Earl opposite, that the Order in Council refers to boroughs as well as to counties. Will the noble Earl tell us how the clause would read as he now proposes it?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: What I suggest is that the noble Lord should leave out the first part of his Amendment down to the word "accordingly," and should insert the remainder of it, commencing at the word "Provided," at the end of the subsection. I do not think there would be any doubt that that would refer to both kinds of authorities as it would be in the same section. If your Lordships agree to that I am informed that the proposed subsection (3) in the noble Lord's Amendment would not be necessary. That subsection really deals with the last two lines of the Bill on page 1. The words in the Bill are "The Order may apply either to all such other police authorities generally or to any authority specified in the Order." The words in the noble Lord's proposed subsection (3) are almost similar, and I think he only proposed to put them in because his Amendment as it stands on the Paper would have struck them out. If the noble Lord will be good enough to accept this at the present stage, he will have an opportunity before Report of looking into it and seeing whether he and his advisers are satisfied with the form which we propose. If not, we might discuss it on the Report stage.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: It does not seem to me that that would meet the case. I understand that the noble Earl wishes to leave out the words of my noble friend's Amendment down to the word "accordingly," and that the rest of the Amendment should come in at the end of the clause. The clause reads—
"This Act shall not come into force as respects any police authority until such date as may be fixed by the authority, but if this Act has not come into force as respects the police authority of any county borough maintaining a separate police force before the expiration of four years from the passing of this Act, it shall come into force as respects that authority at the expiration of that period."
What is the good, after saying that, of adding at the end a proviso that the Order in Council should lie on the Table of Parliament for thirty days? No order would be necessary.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: If the noble Duke will be content to wait until he sees in print the clause as amended, I think it will be satisfactory to him.
LORD BELPER: I am willing to adopt the suggestion of the noble Earl on the

1037
clear understanding that I shall be at liberty, when I see the words in print and on further consideration, to move an Amendment on Report if I think it desirable or necessary. The only point that I should still press is that I believe there are counties which have just as largo police forces as in boroughs, and I think they require time just as much as do the boroughs in which to make the arrangements before the Order in Council is issued. I do not see at present the distinction between a very large borough and a very large county with an equally large police force, and it may be necessary for me to meet that case at a later stage of the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: It will be necessary for the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment in the form in which it is now moved, and then to move the addition of the proviso at the end of the clause.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
To add at the end of Clause I, the words "Provided that before any Order in Council is "made under this Act the draft thereof shall "be laid before each House of Parliament and "if an Address is presented to His Majesty "against the draft or any part thereof by either "House of Parliament within the next subse"quent thirty days on which that House hag sat "next after any such draft is laid before it no "further proceedings shall be taken thereon "without prejudice to the making of any new "draft Order."—(Lord Belper.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to; the Report of Amendments to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed at amended. (No.74.)

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No.75.)
House adjourned at ten minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.